[Deck] Death and Taxes

[Penguinizer]

The new recruiter is pretty nuts. I was brainstorming a bit with a friend of mine, here's sort of what I had in mind for a build with it:

Lands: 23
7x Plains
4x Karakas
4x Wasteland
3x Rishadan Port
3x Flagstones of Trokair
2x *Flex slot. I swear there was a card I was going to put here but I can't remember the name of it. Probably gonna end up being Horizon Canopy or Geier Reach Sanitarium.*

Spells: 11 (Nothing special here.)
4x Aether Vial
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Batterskull
1x Umezawa's Jitter
1x Sword of Fire and Ice

Creatures: 32
4x Mother of Runes
3x Serra Avenger
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Flickerwisp
2x Thalia, Heretic Cathar

4x Recruiter of the Guard
1x Stonecloaker
1x Vryn Wingmare
1x Banisher Priest
1x Mangara of Corondor
1x Aven Mindcensor

(It needs 5-6 creatures removed, but I have no idea what to cut out.)

Sideboard:
3x Rest in Peace
2x Cataclysm
2x Mirran Crusader
2x Wilt-Leaf Liege
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Spirit of the Labyrinth
1x Leonin Relic-Warder
1x Manriki-Gusari (Because without fail, I play one mirror-match every tournament I go to.)

It's a very rough idea, and probably falls into the trap of "too much cool stuff" but I think having 3-5 one-offs like that tutorable with recruiter is very much a workable concept. Other stuff that should probably be there, but I couldn't decide what to cut includes Aegis of the Gods and/or Auriok Champion / Kor Firewalker.

[Finn]

@Finn: No tutorable Crusader?

No, no. Mirran Crusader is definitely needed. That card can be the beef tutor.

[Finn]

List looks pretty good, although I'm not sure if you want to drop to only 2 Flickerwisp, even when they're tutorable. Maybe -1 SFM +1 Flickerwisp?

Edit: But then you're still missing out on THC.

Honestly, iatee, I don't think you have seen what THC can do yet. You have poo poo'd it from the start. That chick is win city.

[Zombie]

Honestly, iatee, I don't think you have seen what THC can do yet. You have poo poo'd it from the start. That chick is win city.

So THC is one hell of a drug?

[iatee]

I've played it a decent amount, and whenever I do, I do a mental check of 'Is this card currently better than a Mirran Crusader would be?'. It's been about 50%. Off the top of my head, I've lost a game vs Delver because Crusader + Jitte woulda done it but Thalia + Jitte wasn't fast enough, I lost a game vs Aggro Loam yesterday where she was Dismembered, I lost a game vs Maverick where she couldn't attack past a KotR. I've also won rough about as many games off her effect being strong. I don't think it's unplayable, and it got a little better off being tutorable (though it won't be an effect you want to tutor for *that* often), but I still think that DnT isn't actually built to abuse her the same way that White Eldrazi or Maverick can.

[NeckBird]

My list as of today:

Creatures (26)
4 Mother of Runes
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Serra Avenger
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
1 Mangara of Corondor
2 Mirran Crusader
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
Spells (11)
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
Lands (23)
1 Cavern of Souls
3 Karakas
1 Mishra's Factory
10 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
Sideboard (15)
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Path to Exile
1 Pithing Needle
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Rest in Peace
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
2 Council's Judgment
1 Sword of War and Peace
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar

With Recruiter, there are many different directions to take D&T. We could cut Serra Avenger's as she isn't tutorable via Recruiter, but it's not as if we're unhappy to play with her. I actually tend to board out Avenger less often than I board out Thalia or even Mom. Because of this, I don't think it's right to completely cut Serra Avenger from the deck. She still holds equipment well, is good on offense and defense, and comes off a Vial on two. We don't want to go too low on two drops otherwise we're just too slow versus Delver, Burn, Eldrazi, and rogue decks like Zoo.

Cutting a Mother could be blasphemous, but Enevoldsen top 8'd a GP with only three so it could be fine. She is a pretty bad topdeck after turn 3 or so anyway especially versus Miracles, which is when Recruiter comes down. We could also just become more of a toolbox deck in general by playing 3 Recruiter, 3 Mom, 3 Revoker, 3 Flickerwisp, 3 Stoneforge, etc.

It might be correct to have 1-2 Veteran Armorer or +X/+1 effects (even something like Adaptive Automaton if we make D&T more human centric) in the SB for the near future. People are going to be reacting to this and for good reason - D&T got a lot better with Recruiter of the Guard.

Creatures (26)
3 Mother of Runes
4 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Serra Avenger
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
1 Mangara of Corondor
1 Mirran Crusader
2 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
Spells (11)
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
Lands (23)
2 Cavern of Souls
3 Karakas
10 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
Sideboard (15)
2 Path to Exile
1 Pithing Needle
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Rest in Peace
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Stonecloaker
2 Council's Judgment
1 Sword of War and Peace
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Hokori, Dust Drinker

[redtwister]

Here's where I am at:
Lands 23
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
2 Cavern of Souls
10 Plains

Creatures 26
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Recruiter of the Guard
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Flickerwisp
1 Stonecloaker
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Mirran Crusader

Spells 11
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

Sideboard
2 Path to Exile
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Council's Judgment
2 Rest In Peace
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Containment Priest
1 Pithing Needle
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Faerie Macabre

I suppose I could fit Mangara of Corondor in there somewhere. Do we need the third Phyrexian Revoker? Maybe SotL in the side and Mangara main? 2 path + Manriki because DnT will be everywhere.

[Barook]

Here's where I am at:
Lands 23
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
2 Cavern of Souls
10 Plains

Creatures 26
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Recruiter of the Guard
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Flickerwisp
1 Stonecloaker
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Mirran Crusader

Spells 11
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

Sideboard
2 Path to Exile
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Council's Judgment
2 Rest In Peace
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Containment Priest
1 Pithing Needle
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Faerie Macabre

I suppose I could fit Mangara of Corondor in there somewhere. Do we need the third Phyrexian Revoker? Maybe SotL in the side and Mangara main? 2 path + Manriki because DnT will be everywhere.
I like your list. Looks well-rounded, although Banishing Priest should probably be in there, too. 3 Recruiter might be a bit more balance. It does cost tempo without Vial. I guess Mangara could fill the spot of the third Revoker, depending on testing. Whether or not Spirit is MD material is debatable, although I can't deny the sexiness of Recruiter with double Vial @2/3 up for the blowouts.

[tarmogoat]

http://mythicspoiler.com/cn2/cards/recruiteroftheguard.jpg

No need to splash red anymore, huh?

[monovfox]

DAE Recruiter of the Guard?

[mykatdied]

In reference to the fact that this tutors x/1s which can be scary, it also tutors for armorer to avoid -1/-1 effects which could be relevant.

[Finn]

In reference to the fact that this tutors x/1s which can be scary, it also tutors for armorer to avoid -1/-1 effects which could be relevant.

That's true. Good point. If this deck is going to be more popular, the hate is going to be more common. I really like the idea of Veteran Armorer in the side.

[RobNC]

Not to highjack the Recruiter discussion, but is everyone giving up thinking about a White Eldrazi / Octo-Thalia thread? That was all the rage until this morning (and part of the reason I signed up this morning)

[Stevestamopz]

Not to highjack the Recruiter discussion, but is everyone giving up thinking about a White Eldrazi / Octo-Thalia thread? That was all the rage until this morning (and part of the reason I signed up this morning)


You're right. Everyone stop discussing this fantastic new card that is absolutely huge news for DNT. Rob's not here for that.

[tarmogoat]

This card even improves the Wr lists, as it also fetches for Flickerwisp and Thalia, Heretic Cathar.

I think it also makes the Black splash a lot better, tutoring for Orzhov Pontiff, Tidehollow Sculler and Dark Confidant with an online vial can be crucial. IF the black splash is reasonable at all, it just got better.

But most importantly, it gives mono white a real edge on both SB slots and Mainboard material. For what it's worth I think this card makes Vryn Wingmare playable, among others I am surely not even thinking of atm.

#HypeBeReal

[RobNC]

You're right. Everyone stop discussing this fantastic new card that is absolutely huge news for DNT. Rob's not here for that.

I'm not talking about more discussion here. There was talk of someone making a new thread, pretty much up until the minute Recruiter was unveiled on SCG. Go back about two pages.

[Dice_Box]

Not to highjack the Recruiter discussion, but is everyone giving up thinking about a White Eldrazi / Octo-Thalia thread? That was all the rage until this morning (and part of the reason I signed up this morning)
Open a new thread in Developing for the deck.

[Medea_]

Okay, I got all of my thoughts together: http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?p=474

[RobNC]

Okay, I got all of my thoughts together: http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?p=474

Excellent post. I'm sad that Serra Avenger seems least likely to work with a Recruiter deck as she's a beast against my local metal, but the toolbox factor should more than make up for it.

[monovfox]

Man this card basically makes the blue splash not worth it :( (due to the increased mirror presence)

[mykatdied]

Man this card basically makes the blue splash not worth it :( (due to the increased mirror presence)

Getting true name in the mirror seems fine.

[monovfox]

Specifically the uber-fun spell queller splash.

[DisgruntledElk]

I'm not talking about more discussion here. There was talk of someone making a new thread, pretty much up until the minute Recruiter was unveiled on SCG. Go back about two pages.

Hey Rob! I'll likely be creating a new thread in the New/Developing section, and I also stream the deck fairly often. My buddy and I just started it up so it's a little rough, but if you want some gameplay I can send you the link.

[mykatdied]

Specifically the uber-fun spell queller splash.

I almost went back and added that to my comment. But got lazy. Queller is a sweet target. Not quite as good 1v1 vial decks, but it can at least stop a swords if they do it in response to a mother of Runes activation, if we answer mystic we can get jitte or sword on the way down. I'm sure it has plenty of play in the mirror. Fun card is fun!

[Whitefaces]

I almost went back and added that to my comment. But got lazy. Queller is a sweet target. Not quite as good 1v1 vial decks, but it can at least stop a swords if they do it in response to a mother of Runes activation, if we answer mystic we can get jitte or sword on the way down. I'm sure it has plenty of play in the mirror. Fun card is fun!

You can't search for Queller with Whitecruiter, it's a 2/3.

[NeckBird]

Death and Taxes is getting all the goodies in this set

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/conspiracy-take-the-crown-preview-sanctum-prelate/

Sanctum Prelate - [1][W][W]
Creature - Human Cleric (Mythic)
As Sanctum Prelate enters the battlefield, choose a number.
Noncreature spells with converted mana cost equal to the chosen number can't be cast.
2/2

[RobNC]

Tutorable with new Recruiter, and also a Human if setting Cavern on Human.

Someone at Wizards clearly loves D&T.

[Rmosto]

Hey Rob! I'll likely be creating a new thread in the New/Developing section, and I also stream the deck fairly often. My buddy and I just started it up so it's a little rough, but if you want some gameplay I can send you the link.

I started a thread today called Thalia Stompy that might fit what you are interested in.

[iatee]

Flabbergasted. That card is insane. It's getting to the point where there aren't even cards to wish for anymore. Rest in Peace bear? That's basically it.

[Pilhas]

Coming from 4C loam, this deck gets more appealing with every card release

[f7eleven]

Flabbergasted. That card is insane. It's getting to the point where there aren't even cards to wish for anymore. Rest in Peace bear? That's basically it.

How about an Urborg for Plains ;-)

[RobNC]

Has anyone seen preorders up yet? Neither SCG nor CFB have it up yet. I don't think I want to sleep on it like I did Recruiter yesterday.

[redtwister]

@f7eleven
Well, given what they gave us so far in this set, it might happen... holy cow, this is absurd.

[LegacyIsAnEternalFormat]

With the spoiling of the new Recruiter and THC, I think this deck would greatly benefit with some increased speed in the form of Noble Hierarch. I think the green splash will become the next best splash for this deck, not only Hierarch but Qasali Pridemage and Gaddock Teeg and KotR and Choke are good inclusions that come from Green Splash.

[hill_giant]

Flabbergasted. That card is insane. It's getting to the point where there aren't even cards to wish for anymore. Rest in Peace bear? That's basically it.

Do we even need to bother splashing anymore? They're just giving us so many white cards that there's hardly a way to find room for green or red cards.

[Richard Arschmann]

These new D&T toys are going to push the deck into the stratosphere.

[RobNC]

With the spoiling of the new Recruiter and THC, I think this deck would greatly benefit with some increased speed in the form of Noble Hierarch. I think the green splash will become the next best splash for this deck, not only Hierarch but Qasali Pridemage and Gaddock Teeg and KotR and Choke are good inclusions that come from Green Splash.

Don't you just start becoming Maverick at that point?

[mykatdied]

A lot of spicy new tools coming out. Get ready for the mirror. Getting to the point where hushwing gryff might be necessary main or out of the board

[iatee]

Do we even need to bother splashing anymore? They're just giving us so many white cards that there's hardly a way to find room for green or red cards.

I'm going to play 1 Magus in the 75 with 3 Caverns. Having 4-5 copies of a Blood Moon effect on demand is really powerful, keeps them honest, gets you wins vs Lands, 12-Post, Eldrazi. It might get stuck in your hand sometimes, but so does Batterskull, and Magus is actually a more powerful card. I suggest other people try this strategy - now the rest of you guys have no excuses not to. Just stick a Magus in your SB.

But beyond that you don't need to splash with all the powerful white cards we have to fit into our 75. Green splash cards have always seemed a bit too fair to me and Green doesn't go well with Cavern on human.


A lot of spicy new tools coming out. Get ready for the mirror. Getting to the point where hushwing gryff might be necessary main or out of the board

Unfortunately a two-sided effect, it shuts down too much of your own deck. Non DnT decks might play it, however. Aven Mindcensor has gotten a bit better now.

[Finn]

A lot of spicy new tools coming out. Get ready for the mirror. Getting to the point where hushwing gryff might be necessary main or out of the board

Card is ridiculous. The wording is so strong. Gryff does nothing because it is not a trigger. "As" can not be got around.

I don't know if the rest of you have seen this yet, but you just name "one" and go about winning.

[Dice_Box]

Or Two and lock me out while keeping Swords up. Fuck what a card. This thing is scary. I am going to come Play in your playground for a while.

[iatee]

1 vs Delver decks, 2 vs Lands, 6 vs Miracles. Dunno how many copies can be played main since it does have some weak matchups too and the 3 drop spot is super crowded, but the card is insanely, insanely powerful. Really had no need to be so generous with the wording. Somebody at Wizards plays this deck.

[mykatdied]

I'm not saying gryff would be there for the sanctum prelate. I was more suggesting it could be necessary to get the first tutor and be able to shut down your opponents shenanigans on the same style. If it hits both sides but you get the value first, then you're still ahead. If they do answer it, then you're likely the first to start taking advantage of enters abilities.

[Finn]

That's true, sort of like the value of Revoker on Vial. Also, Prelates come out in the mirror for sure.

[iatee]

Playing a card that always shuts off all of the best parts of your deck in the hope that you will use it when you are ahead is not a great plan. Sometimes you're not ahead and you now have a card in your hand that keeps you from coming back from behind. Mindcensor is less powerful but never an actively bad card to have in the mirror. But yeah, having mirror-breakers in the SB has never become more relevant...

[deucegg]

https://www.magiccardmarket.eu/Products/Singles/Conspiracy%3A+Take+the+Crown/Recruiter+of+the+Guard

recruiter starting at ~ 45 € currently. prices will surely drop, but it still shows the impact this card will have. excited!

[MiraclesWizard]

look at the new prelate, its the chalice of the void on wheels

[Dice_Box]

https://www.magiccardmarket.eu/Products/Singles/Conspiracy%3A+Take+the+Crown/Recruiter+of+the+Guard

recruiter starting at ~ 45 € currently. prices will surely drop, but it still shows the impact this card will have. excited!
Got the opening preorder for 15 each. There is no way 45eu holds.

[RobNC]

Got the opening preorder for 15 each. There is no way 45eu holds.

SCG put more preorders up today, still at $30USD each. Selling much slower today than yesterday. Fingers crossed this set is opened a ton and prices come down.

[Whitefaces]

Just wait a bit until the set comes out. It's a rare with unlimited printing, there will be loads on the market and I can't see it staying above $15 really.

Look at TNN, it was around $40-50 at release, it's $18 now and had a limited run.

[Abantau]

Sanctum Prelate. 😳😳😳

[Barook]

As awesome as these new cards are, the question remains what to cut? Our curve gets more and more 3-drop heavy while cards like THC and Prelate benefit from being played as early as possible. I do wonder if the should take a closer look at acceleration, be it Noble Hierarch, or if you want to stay in monocolor, Chrome Mox. Getting stuff like Thalia, GoT online T1 or Prelate/THC on T2 is not something to be sneezed at.

We could use Geier Reach Sanitarium for filtering and the combo with Spirit of the Labyrinth gets alot more feasible since Recruiter of the Guard can fetch it, too.

[RobNC]

...

I do wonder if the should take a closer look at acceleration, be it Noble Hierarch, or if you want to stay in monocolor, Chrome Mox. Getting stuff like Thalia, GoT online T1 or Prelate/THC on T2 is not something to be sneezed at.

...

Let's cross our fingers for tomorrow's spoilers to include Angelic Spirit Guide. Exile Anglic Spirit Guide from your hand: Add W to your mana pool. :cool:

[redtwister]

My initial thoughts on Sanctum Prelate and it's limits. It is not as important for the deck as Recruiter of the Guard, but it is powerful against specific decks. Like iatee said, maybe a sideboard hoser for certain matches. Also, if you think I have misjudged a match, please let me know.

Sanctum Prelate is super-powerful, but I also want to think about the matches where it is best. It also has the limitation of being much weaker against 1) combo decks, 2) decks where PtE/StP are very important but we want to call "1", and 3) decks where there is no clear CMC to punish them on for non-creature spells. Also, get Vial out first if you plan to call "1".

Miracles - Between that and Recruiter, this ought to be way, way better. 6 is obvious, but 1 is also fine if you have a second one.
Lands - on 2 it stops Punishing Fire, Life of the Loam, and Sylvan Library. Seems good!
RUx Delver - on 1 it stops Brainstorm, Ponder, Lightning Bolt, Stifle, but it also stops our removal.
BUG Delver on 1 it stops Brainstorm, Ponder and Thoughtseize and on 2 it stops Abrupt Decay, Daze, and Hymn to Tourach, which seems like the sweet spot. Keep in mind, we can't cast RiP afterwards either. You want to cast RiP and Vial this in with RiP on the stack.
ANT/TES - Too slow most of the time, but 4 stops Tendrils of Agony and Empty the Warrens, so yeah...
Elves - 2 or 4. My guess is that it is going on 4 to stop Natural Order unless you have Containment Priest out, then you want 2 for Abrupt Decay. But with Priest, Canonist, 2 Path, Needle, and THC, this match is beginning to feel like one where your opponent has to go off turn 2 or 3 to have a secure chance of winning.
UWx Deathblade/Stoneblade - 1 unless you are worried about Jace, in which case 4.
Burn - um, 1 if you are still alive.
Infect - um, 1 if you are still alive and don't mind not casting your removal spells and dying to Inkmoth Nexus or Blighted Agent.
Jund - 2. Always 2. We can fight through Liliana of the Veil, Thoughtseize, and Bolt, but Abrupt Decay, Hymn to tourach and Punishing Fire are worse.
Goblins - 1, but it is bad here.
Nic Fit - 2 or 3, depending on what you think you are facing, but they have a wide range of valid spells against us already.
Show and Tell - 3 or 4? I don't think you will get to stop their 1 drops quickly enough, so if you are going into turn 3 blind on the play, 3 for Show and Tell and Cunning Wish, I guess.
Reanimator - If you aren't dead, I guess 1, but Exhume is on 2 so...
Dredge - 1, not that it matters much by turn 3-4...
Painter - If Grindstone isn't out, 1. If it is, well, this card won't help you much, but I guess 3 for Blood Moon and Ensnaring Bridge.
Deadguy Ale - 3 for Vindicate and Liliana or 2 for Hymn, etc.
Aluren - What is the threat here? Aluren or Abrupt Decay and Sylvan Library? 4 or 2?
Eldrazi Aggro - 2 for Warping Wail, Ratchet Bomb, Chalice on 1 and Umezawa's Jitte and ignore their Dismembers?
Aggro Loam - 2.
Shardless BUG - 2 or 3, hard decision. 2 hits more, especially Abrupt Decay, but 3 hits Maelstrom Pulse, Toxic Deluge and Liliana of the Veil.
DnT - Bad...

Decks where this is not good:
Mirror
Infect
Reanimator
Storm (Ant or TES)
Eldrazi Aggro
Painter
RUx Delver
Dredge
Goblins

Decks where this is good:
Jund
Goblins
Miracles
Lands
Aggro Loam
BUG Delver

Decks where this is "so-so":
Aluren
Elves?
Deadguy Ale
Maverick
Nic Fit
Burn
Shardless BUG

[Finn]

Prelates are up at SCG: $30 each.

[iatee]

redtwister, I think you're vastly underrating the card. Vs all Delver decks it's insane. Vs. Miracles it's insane.

Vs. fast combo, it doesn't win you the game on its own because it's slow, and you need faster disruption generally (Thalia/Ethersworn). But post-board those games are slower, involve more interaction, and this card just puts an end to any back and forth upon resolution. It lives through Dread of Night and can shut off Massacre.

Most decks rely heavily on one or two key spells to beat DnT (Terminus, Punishing Fire, Natural Order, Show and Tell, Lightning Bolt). This card takes care of all of them at once.

Decks where this is very good (has a high overlap with 'best decks in legacy'):
Miracles
Lands
BUG Delver
RUx Delver
Aggro Loam
Painter
Jund

Decks where this is "so-so":
Reanimator
Storm (Ant or TES)
SnS +Omni
Aluren
Elves
Deadguy Ale
Maverick
Nic Fit
Burn
Shardless BUG

Decks where this is not good:
Mirror
Infect
Eldrazi Aggro
Dredge
Goblins
Merfolk

[iatee]

As awesome as these new cards are, the question remains what to cut? Our curve gets more and more 3-drop heavy while cards like THC and Prelate benefit from being played as early as possible. I do wonder if the should take a closer look at acceleration, be it Noble Hierarch, or if you want to stay in monocolor, Chrome Mox. Getting stuff like Thalia, GoT online T1 or Prelate/THC on T2 is not something to be sneezed at.

We could use Geier Reach Sanitarium for filtering and the combo with Spirit of the Labyrinth gets alot more feasible since Recruiter of the Guard can fetch it, too.

Prelate doesn't need to be played as early as possible. THC is a pure tempo card - her effect loses value as the game goes on, so you want her as early as possible. That's why I've never been a huge fan - I think it's a good card for the stompy decks, but we're not playing a deck designed to be one.

Prelate isn't a beater - she has a more fragile body and isn't gonna be going toe-to-toe with large creatures. In some cases you'll want to save her until you have a Mom online for a true lock, sandbag her for an instant speed 6 vs a Terminus trigger, etc. Because there's no trigger, the effect is very strong out of a Vial, similar to Revoker. Against pure spell decks sure, it's just a Chalice on 1 that you attack with, but against decks with multiple numbers to name, it's going to have a lot more play to than a t1 Chalice would, and it's going to be powerful at all points of the game. Playing card disadvantage ramp shouldn't be necessary.

[redtwister]

redtwister, I think you're vastly underrating the card. Vs all Delver decks it's insane. Vs. Miracles it's insane.

Vs. fast combo, it doesn't win you the game on its own because it's slow, and you need faster disruption generally (Thalia/Ethersworn). But post-board those games are slower, involve more interaction, and this card just puts an end to any back and forth upon resolution. It lives through Dread of Night and can shut off Massacre.

Most decks rely heavily on one or two key spells to beat DnT (Terminus, Punishing Fire, Natural Order, Show and Tell, Lightning Bolt). This card takes care of all of them at once.

Decks where this is very good (has a high overlap with 'best decks in legacy'):
Miracles
Lands
BUG Delver
RUx Delver
Aggro Loam
Painter
Jund

Decks where this is "so-so":
Reanimator
Storm (Ant or TES)
SnS +Omni
Aluren
Elves
Deadguy Ale
Maverick
Nic Fit
Burn
Shardless BUG

Decks where this is not good:
Mirror
Infect
Eldrazi Aggro
Dredge
Goblins
Merfolk

Good points. Happy to go with your list of the matches (sorry, had Goblins the wrong list entirely!) The so-so matches it is true, it often still hits key cards, its only risk is being a bit slow, but I completely agree it is bonkers against Miracles, Lands, Aggro Loam and could be a singular turning point in improving our Jund match.

I am curious though why you think it is so good versus all delver. Is it simply that if we take away their 1 mana spells, UR, Grixis and RUG have to rely on beating our 26 creatures with their 12-16 creatures, plus we want to expend our removal spells in the first couple of turns anyway?

[iatee]

Good points. Happy to go with your list of the matches (sorry, had Goblins the wrong list entirely!) The so-so matches it is true, it often still hits key cards, its only risk is being a bit slow, but I completely agree it is bonkers against Miracles, Lands, Aggro Loam and could be a singular turning point in improving our Jund match.

I am curious though why you think it is so good versus all delver. Is it simply that if we take away their 1 mana spells, UR, Grixis and RUG have to rely on beating our 26 creatures with their 12-16 creatures, plus we want to expend our removal spells in the first couple of turns anyway?

Thalia is already strong against their decks because she makes their 1 mana spells twice the cost. This card makes their 1 mana spells literally uncastable, and unlike Thalia she can't even be removed with their key removal spell. Unlike Chalice, they can't even play cantrips to get countered to fuel their yard or produce Pyro tokens. If they're massively ahead on t3 we still need to find a SfM or something to get out of the situation, but if they're only moderately ahead then we have a lot more time to recover while they stare at their hand. If they're behind they just lose. Only awkwardness here is shutting off your own STPs but it's more than worth it, and you generally cast them ASAP anyway.

[iatee]

Here's my latest attempt at a list before they decide to spoil even better cards for us:

3 Mom

4 Thalia 1.0
4 Sfm
2 Revoker
1 Spirit of the lab

2 Flickerwisp
4 Recruiter
1 Banisher Priest
1 Mangara
1 Thalia HC
2 Prelate
1 Stonecloaker
1 Magus

4 Vial
1 Jitte
1 Sofi
4 STP
4 Port
4 Wasteland
3 Karakas
3 Cavern
9 Plains

SB:
2 RIP
2 PTE
1 Dismember
1 Batterskull
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Prelate
1 Relic Warder
1 Revoker
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Containment Priest
1 Devout Witness
1 Mirran Crusader

I could see doing any of the following:
- Relic Warder or Devout Witness main or another Revoker main. Relic Warder is stronger than Revoker in the mirror, which will be more prevalent.
- Moving Mangara, Magus or Thalia HC to SB
- Going to 3 Recruiters...but...eh
- 4th Mom again, even more important w/ Prelate
- Trying to squeeze in a Wingmare in the 75
- Trying to find a late game 'bomb' SB tutor target to replace Pia/Kiran, though I can't imagine there's going to be one nearly as good.


I expect the Rest in Peaces to be replaced with the 1W Rest in Peace bear they will surely reveal in 10 minutes. Probably will have protection from red.

[AsmodeusDM]

While NobleH does seem like a good fit for the deck since getting some of these 3 drops out early is nice (and the exalted trigger on our first strikers or flyers to boot)... I do think that the chrome mox idea has a lot of merit.

Has anybody ever played chrome mox in D&T before? Being able to Thalia or RIP or Ethersworn or SFM on T1 seems great; and then following it up with a T3 play like prelate or THC to really lock the game out... GEESH...

Or even a T1 rishadan port activation or Wasteland + Mox->Vial!

I guess the problem has always been since we didn't have card advantage a card like Chrome Mox was almost unplayable. But with recruiter + SFM maybe we finally have enough card advantage to consider it?

[Luca Grease]

Here's my latest attempt at a list before they decide to spoil even better cards for us:

3 Mom

4 Thalia 1.0
4 Sfm
2 Revoker
1 Spirit of the lab

2 Flickerwisp
4 Recruiter
1 Banisher Priest
1 Mangara
1 Thalia HC
2 Prelate
1 Stonecloaker
1 Magus

4 Vial
1 Jitte
1 Sofi
4 STP
4 Port
4 Wasteland
3 Karakas
3 Cavern
9 Plains

SB:
2 RIP
2 PTE
1 Dismember
1 Batterskull
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Prelate
1 Relic Warder
1 Revoker
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Containment Priest
1 Devout Witness
1 Mirran Crusader

I could see doing any of the following:
- Relic Warder or Devout Witness main or another Revoker main. Relic Warder is stronger than Revoker in the mirror, which will be more prevalent.
- Moving Mangara, Magus or Thalia HC to SB
- Going to 3 Recruiters...but...eh
- 4th Mom again, even more important w/ Prelate
- Trying to squeeze in a Wingmare in the 75
- Trying to find a late game 'bomb' SB tutor target to replace Pia/Kiran, though I can't imagine there's going to be one nearly as good.


I expect the Rest in Peaces to be replaced with the 1W Rest in Peace bear they will surely reveal in 10 minutes. Probably will have protection from red.


Nice list, I have quite a bit of respect for you as a player so I wanted to ask:

Have you considered going down to 3 SFM?
Also, is Magus of the moon really playable in mono white?
Is maindeck banisher priest better than the 3rd flickerwisp?

Thanks

[iatee]

Yeah, I think a SfM would be the cut if I put in a Relic-Warder. SfM is obviously the most important card in the mirror, but if you swap it for a Relic-Warder you're not really worse off, probably better. (T2 Relic your Vial is really hard to come back from.) I've played with 3 SfMs, I think it's more justifiable when you only have 2 equipment main. (Since if you have one in your opening hand or draw into one, you're going to be drawing into Squires pretty quickly.)

I'm not 100% sure about Magus, but I think it's absolutely worth testing. I can say that I rarely want or need to have a Plateau out with my current build, and generally when I do, it's to cast Recruiter not Magus. I get the sense that it's roughly as risky as a one-of Batterskull, and the payoff is generally "you just win the game."

Having played with Fiend Hunter for quite a while now, I've found myself wishing it were there as a Recruiter target whenever I take it out of the deck. Instant speed removal is a pretty essential silver bullet, especially vs Eldrazi, which is one of the only matchups that hasn't been significantly improved by new cards.

[Scott]

This is really entertaining to watch, like seeing a scientist work hard on a hypothesis for a couple days, and then over and over having to crumble it up and toss it out midway through, as new planets keep getting discovered every three days.

[Medea_]

Here are my thoughts on Sanctum Prelate:

http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?p=486

[monovfox]

I think thalia and sfm should stay at 4. Both are too good to not drop on turn 2

[Barook]

Food for thought:

There was an interesting regarding a Vial Maverick list also featuring Collected Company, which kinda is a hybrid between D&T and (Vial) Maverick.

I think it's time again for some vial maverick action.
One argument against aether vial in maverick was the inability of fetching the right toolbox targets.
with this awesome card you'll be able to both generate card advantage and search for the right tools.

also: when cutting green sun zenith we're able to play more creatures thus making collected company better.

imagine:
#1 Vial on 2, Vial on 3:
opp: Terminus trigger
response, recruiter into gaddock teeg

#2 vial on 3, vial on 3
vial in recruiter into flicker wisp target recruiter into flicker wisp rinse repeat value.

#3 vial on 3, vial on 3
collected company into recruiter into eternal witness target collected company #infinitevalue

my first thoughts:
cutting the 4ofss to 3offs to make room for 4 recruiter + 4 flickerwisp

core:
4 aether vial
4 swords to plowshares
4 collected company
4 recruiter of the guard
4 flickerwisp

3 mother of runes
3 knight of the reliquary
3 thalia, guardian of thraben

etc. you get my point

although finding stoneforge mystic is great, i dont think running more non-creatures is good for collected company.
didn't someone made a calculation about how many creatures are needed for a good % in hitting 2 creatures?

~screallix
I'm quite intrigued by the possibility that open up with Collected Company, which gets kinda silly with Eternal Witness chaining.

[iatee]

I tested a proxy version of the list I posted against friends playing Grixis Delver, BUG Delver and Aggro Loam tonight and it went great.

Prelate was one of the cards I recruitered for most often, no surprise, it's easily one of the strongest cards in the deck, 2 might not be enough. Getting to do the broken Imperial Taxes recruiter plays with a Plains into Plains manabase felt like I was cheating. 3 Caverns is also really where you want to be because resolving Prelate is almost comparable to resolving Magus.

[Luca Grease]

As much as I like the new Thalia, I'm beginning to wonder if it really makes sense as a singleton tutor target. Between hosers like Prelate and various sideboard cards, and the sheer card advantage of flickerwisps and co, how often is it going to be just what you want?

[colo]

I'll go on the record and say that I don't believe in the Collected Company idea, at least not in a D&T shell.

What might be worth considering, I think, is a singleton Ranger of Eos - to chain into from a recruiter.

[iatee]

Yeah, I pretty much agree Luca. I played a lot of games last night and I never found myself tutoring for her. I tutored for: Prelate (a lot), SfM, Magus, Flickerwisp, Stonecloaker, Mirran Crusader and was a turn away from needing to tutor for Banisher Priest one game. I did have a game where THC was strong t3 on the play, Cavern'd out vs Delver, but it was naturally drawn. The question is how much value a real silver bullet replacement would bring in her spot.

I don't think Ranger of Eos fetches enough. Spending a bunch of turns to get a 1/1 a 3/2 and 2 Moms seems a little too durdly and not something that you'd regularly be looking to do. I don't see any 4 drops that seem playable for this new build.

[MiraclesWizard]

which magus are people with referring to?

[Dice_Box]

Moon.

[Richard Arschmann]

Do you really need SFM at all? Couldn't you just use THC as a beater and use the 6 more slots for more toolbox creatures?

[Luca Grease]

Do you really need SFM at all? Couldn't you just use THC as a beater and use the 6 more slots for more toolbox creatures?

Yes.
Nope.
SFM is the muscle of the deck, it turns every 1/1 into a threat, suppresses enemy swarms and stabilizes against fast aggro. There is no substitute, now more than ever.

[colo]

You need SFM, but I've been running 3 copies in Imperial from the get-go (it does make the pseudo-mirror harder, though, since you're mostly just racing towards Jitte), and that number worked out to be just fine.

[joande]

Here's my latest attempt at a list before they decide to spoil even better cards for us:

3 Mom

4 Thalia 1.0
4 Sfm
2 Revoker
1 Spirit of the lab

2 Flickerwisp
4 Recruiter
1 Banisher Priest
1 Mangara
1 Thalia HC
2 Prelate
1 Stonecloaker
1 Magus

4 Vial
1 Jitte
1 Sofi
4 STP
4 Port
4 Wasteland
3 Karakas
3 Cavern
9 Plains

SB:
2 RIP
2 PTE
1 Dismember
1 Batterskull
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Prelate
1 Relic Warder
1 Revoker
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Containment Priest
1 Devout Witness
1 Mirran Crusader

I could see doing any of the following:
- Relic Warder or Devout Witness main or another Revoker main. Relic Warder is stronger than Revoker in the mirror, which will be more prevalent.
- Moving Mangara, Magus or Thalia HC to SB
- Going to 3 Recruiters...but...eh
- 4th Mom again, even more important w/ Prelate
- Trying to squeeze in a Wingmare in the 75
- Trying to find a late game 'bomb' SB tutor target to replace Pia/Kiran, though I can't imagine there's going to be one nearly as good.


I expect the Rest in Peaces to be replaced with the 1W Rest in Peace bear they will surely reveal in 10 minutes. Probably will have protection from red.

Hello, I would move Magus to the side and Batterskull back to the main. Cut Spirit of the Labyrinth entirely (feels like cantrip decks are answered by prelate at one) and go back to four moms to protect your silver bullets.

[Pilhas]

Will be testing the following list

4x Mother of Runes

3x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Stoneforge Mystic

3x Flickerwisp
3x Recruiter of the Guard
2x Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1x Banisher Priest
1x Mangara of Corondor
1x Sanctum Prelate

2x Cavern of Souls
1x Horizon Canopy
3x Karakas
9x Plains
4x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland

4x AEther Vial
1x Batterskull
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Umezawa's Jitte
4x Swords to Plowshares

Thoughts:


4 moms to protect silver bullets
2 THC as beaters(maybe should be a split of crusader/THC since we have recruiter)
Only 3 silver bullets, I really want to start slow on this instead of overloading with corner cases
Would like to fit a Stonecloaker(maybe for a flickerwisp but it doesn't seem right)
Would like to fit a spirit of the lab to increase 2 drops(maybe for the mangara)

[Warden]

Hello, I would move Magus to the side and Batterskull back to the main. Cut Spirit of the Labyrinth entirely (feels like cantrip decks are answered by prelate at one) and go back to four moms to protect your silver bullets.

I have to jump in on this discussion. Lots of very talented minds here.

There are some question-marks for both DnT and Green and Taxes. For starters, I think we already have an over-saturation of quality white-based hatebears. These new leaks are gravy. Without being flamed to death, let's acknowledge that we have a plethora of good/great options. The bigger question is playstyle and identity. Do you want to be flexible and reactive? Or do you want to be locking the game down while being aggressive? I'm sure there are shades of other strategies sprinkled in between those 2.

From my perspective, I like Maverick/Green lists that can accelerate 3 mana as early as turn 2. There's something to having Noble/Deathrite. Playstyle sways my own preference.

I also mentioned in the Maverick thread it would probably be unwise to play GSZ/Recruiter/Vial/CC all in the same list. Enablers and "gas" are strong. But you don't want to dilute your actual business spells down so much.

***
Currently, I'd pencil in this list as a starting point for me. I prefer to be aggressive to the tune of Maverick's wasteland-thalia combination backed by KotR. I think Collective Company could work, but it's quite an expensive spell.

GW Hatebears
----------------
4x GSZ
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Sylvan Library
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Batterskull
/12

4x Mother of Runes
4x Noble/DRS
3x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1x Qasali Pridemage
/15

4x Knight of the Reliquary
6x Flex**
/10
**Recruiter of the Guard / Thalia, Heretic Cathar / Sanctum Prelate / Flickerwisp

23x Lands
------------------
I loved Thalia, HC this past weekend. However, there is something to be said about 3x Recruiter + 1x for those 3cc bullets. I think the Tax-Pony (Wingmare?) is outclassed by Prelate. Flickerwisp is better with Vial. Knight is just ridiculous everytime I run a hatebear shell with her (again, preference and playstyle). A vial-centric list would have 3x KotR, no dorks, no gsz in exchange for vial itself, flickerwisp, and some more 2cc helpers.

[Finn]

I am pretty sure we are all going to want a single Mirran Crusader. Against the opponents it is good against it is darn near the perfect card. If Prelate is as good as iatee feels it is, we have some SERIOUS soul searching to do.

-How good/necessary is Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, really? Do we NEED 4? I have had games where one was stuck in my hand from time to time.
-Could Revoker be good as a singleton?
-Does the sideoard start to look like a creature collection now? I feel that this is a particularly strong direction to go.
-Should we go to 24 lands to support the new direction? A single Ancient Tomb or Chrome Mox could be substantial.

Also, considering the inevitable uptick in Massacre appearing in sideboards, we really have to consider Flagstones of Trokair again.

[RobNC]

What other white non-basics are available besides Flagstones? Less plains makes us stronger against Massacre but also weaker to the inevitable mirror match with THC. Cavern is great with more humans but running more than 2 will be tricky with still 10-12 non-humans (SFM, Revoker, Wisp).

[DarthVicious]

What other white non-basics are available besides Flagstones? Less plains makes us stronger against Massacre but also weaker to the inevitable mirror match with THC. Cavern is great with more humans but running more than 2 will be tricky with still 10-12 non-humans (SFM, Revoker, Wisp).

You can search card text for mana symbols in Gatherer using squiggly parenthesis. Ex: {W} is white mana.

That being said, the only good ones for utility I've found besides Flagstones are Kjeldoran Outpost, Mistveil Plains, and a couple others. I'm more interested in testing Deserts myself, particularly for the mirror or similar matchups. A playset of Deserts will rule a Grixis deck by themselves.

[iatee]

Running 3 Caverns is fine and 4 might even be correct. Resolving Chalice of the Void for X through Cavern of Souls is an extremely broken play and you want to be setting yourself up for it. Caverns also help let you push the deck's curve up without getting blown out by Daze.

Finn, going down to 3 Thalia sounds like heresy...but if we're replacing her with other hatebears (e.g. 1 of Spirit and 1 of Ethersworn) + Prelates, who knows? She's also terrible in the mirror and not good against other matchups that aren't getting better with the new cards (e.g. Eldrazi.) It's almost certainly wrong, but it's worth talking about.

In today's meta a 1 of Revoker could probably do the job, but if DnT (and DnT predators like Elves) grow in popularity, then the card's even more important.

I've built Imperial sideboards as creature collections for a while and I'm pretty sure it's the right way to go about it. Having 5 copies of each sideboard effect allows you a lot of consistency, as long as you can survive the early game, which is why I have been leaning hard on Path to Exile.

There are some effects that can't be creature-ized (RIP, 1 mana removal) and I don't think there's a tutorable late-game control deck killer in white comparable to Pia/Kiran. But I'd be very interested if someone found one.

[Warden]

I am pretty sure we are all going to want a single Mirran Crusader. Against the opponents it is good against it is darn near the perfect card. If Prelate is as good as iatee feels it is, we have some SERIOUS soul searching to do.

-How good/necessary is Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, really? Do we NEED 4? I have had games where one was stuck in my hand from time to time.
-Could Revoker be good as a singleton?
-Does the sideoard start to look like a creature collection now? I feel that this is a particularly strong direction to go.
-Should we go to 24 lands to support the new direction? A single Ancient Tomb or Chrome Mox could be substantial.

Also, considering the inevitable uptick in Massacre appearing in sideboards, we really have to consider Flagstones of Trokair again.

I find 3x Thalia, GoT to be my personal max. Mainly due to the weird phenomenon of running 4 = I draw them all at once.

For revoker, that card is either 1) amazing or 2) lackluster. It's become such a boom-or-bust card IMO. Very matchup/bracket dependent. I would still be inclined to run a few with vial but I could be convinced he's being outclassed. Again, this is my perspective. I find Revoker to be meh against URx delver decks, 50-50 against TNN and Lands.dec (sequence dependent I'll say), stronger against Shardless, and optimal against Miracles or the mirror.

Finn, what's your opinion of running maindeck Canonists? I think for the current meta I'd be happier seeing them game 1 and boarding into a pair of Revoker if warranted. This feeling compounds if Prelate is the real deal.
I'd rather slow the game down with Thalia 1.0 and Canonist Early (so strong against anything blue or combo). Thalia 2.0 continues the crawl. Prelate disables the impending spell capable of 2-for-1-ing you.
2cc: Disable Punishing Fires, Decay, Golgari Charm, ZP, Counterbalance, Burning Wish, Infernal, Animate Dead
3cc: Toxic D, Council's J, Show and Tell
4cc: Massacre, Jace TMS, Wrath effects, Sneak Attack, Dread Return
5cc: Ad Naus
6cc: Terminus

[Slapa]

You can search card text for mana symbols in Gatherer using squiggly parenthesis. Ex: {W} is white mana.

That being said, the only good ones for utility I've found besides Flagstones are Kjeldoran Outpost, Mistveil Plains, and a couple others. I'm more interested in testing Deserts myself, particularly for the mirror or similar matchups. A playset of Deserts will rule a Grixis deck by themselves.

Mistveil Plains is a Plains as well, so it doesn't help playing around Massacre. If you want to play around Massacre (which makes you vulnerable to Blood Moon and less likely to play Magus of the Moon) here are some:
- Sungrass Prairie
- Windbrisk Heights
- Eiganjo Castle
- Painlands
- Filterlands (Fetid Heath etc.)
- Horzion Canopy
- Flagestone of Trokair

If you play with Mox Diamon you could also play Riftstone Portal.



Running 3 Caverns is fine and 4 might even be correct. Resolving Chalice of the Void for X through Cavern of Souls is an extremely broken play and you want to be setting yourself up for it. Caverns also help let you push the deck's curve up without getting blown out by Daze.

Finn, going down to 3 Thalia sounds like heresy...but if we're replacing her with other hatebears (e.g. 1 of Spirit and 1 of Ethersworn) + Prelates, who knows? She's also terrible in the mirror and not good against other matchups that aren't getting better with the new cards (e.g. Eldrazi.) It's almost certainly wrong, but it's worth talking about.

In today's meta a 1 of Revoker could probably do the job, but if DnT (and DnT predators like Elves) grow in popularity, then the card's even more important.

I've built Imperial sideboards as creature collections for a while and I'm pretty sure it's the right way to go about it. Having 5 copies of each sideboard effect allows you a lot of consistency, as long as you can survive the early game, which is why I have been leaning hard on Path to Exile.

There are some effects that can't be creature-ized (RIP, 1 mana removal) and I don't think there's a tutorable late-game control deck killer in white comparable to Pia/Kiran. But I'd be very interested if someone found one.

I agree more Caverns should be fine, since we are going to play more humans and cutting cards with double white like Serra Avenger and Brimaz. Maybe even 4 are worth considering if you want to splash cards like Magus of the Moon or Orzhov Pontiff.

I am relatively new to this deck, so I don't have the same amount of experience like you. But I had the experience with Thalia that her first strike is pretty important. It's awesome with Jitte and helps against deathtouch creatures like Baleful Strix.

[colo]

Replying to Finn, and stating mho:

-How good/necessary is Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, really? Do we NEED 4? I have had games where one was stuck in my hand from time to time.
Yes, we need four. You can always board it out if a particular MU allows for that. But in the default case (in today's meta - this might change when 60% of the legacy populace switch to D&T), I want a Thalia in my starting 7, and that usually requires 4 copies.

-Could Revoker be good as a singleton?
Yes. I used to run a singleton as a tutor target in Imperial, and a Relic-Warder for stuff like Sylvan Library. That split should be able to deal with most of the nasty things you'll have to deal with.


-Does the sideoard start to look like a creature collection now? I feel that this is a particularly strong direction to go.
Yes, it will. Or at least my Imperial SB does - there's stuff like Faerie Macabre that you'll want to run now, for instance.

-Should we go to 24 lands to support the new direction? A single Ancient Tomb or Chrome Mox could be substantial.
As I personally don't believe in the mana-acceleration path some people are taking the deck into, I cannot really comment on that.

Also, considering the inevitable uptick in Massacre appearing in sideboards, we really have to consider Flagstones of Trokair again.
Yes, that's probably true. Also, the most recent Gideon (with its +1/+1 emblem) might become more important.

[redtwister]

Non-creature Sideboard Staple Options:
Rest in peace
Path to Exile
Pithing Needle
Manriki-Gusari (Going to be so important with all the new DnT floating around and with Council's Judgment probably out of the deck, it is super strong against Stoneblade\Deathblade decks.)
Gideon, Ally of Zendikar (Maybe he is not so important with the new cards? I love all three abilities and it is a monster against Miracles, but is it worth it?)
Mindbreak Trap (One thing we are weak to are decks that get around Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and Ethersworn Canonist by winning by turn 2 on the play. Trap, along with Faerie Macabre, provide outs to a lot of that nonsense.)

Creature Winners:
Faerie Macabre
Ethersworn Canonist
Containment Priest
Banisher Priest
Leonin Relic-Warder
Adaptive Automaton or Veteran Armorer (Seems like something we need to consider as a choice, especially if we drop Gideon. I am pro-VA, not AA.)
Thalia, Heretic Cathar or Sanctum Prelate (depending on which you want main vs. side.)
Magus of the Moon (for those 3+ Cavern builds in Lands and Eldrazi-heavy metas.)
Phyrexian Revoker (because we could go down to 1-2 in the main and maybe you want this over Pithing Needle.)

[nGoldenX]

Against Massacre decks, particularly Storm, it's probably best to try to put out Thalia+Karakas or a vial. Then just don't extend too much until you can name "4" with Sanctum Prelate. Because Massacre is a sorcery and we'll have redunancy with Recruiter, I don't see Massacre being too much of a problem. It seems it will be easy to play around with Conspiracy's release. Also, Prelate on 4 shuts out Jace and Tendrils, so that might just be a really good number in a lot of MU's. The downside to this play would be opening yourself up to Abrupt Decay, Bolt, or Sudden Shock into Massacre, and they can still cast their small spells.

[Barook]

Why are people suddenly panicking about Massacre? Reducing the basic land count doesn't come for free.

As for the numbers @Finn:
- Depending on the Recruiter count, I wouldn't drop below 3 copies of Thalia, GoT. Maybe 4 is correct.
- I think 2 Revokers with Recruiter are fine.
- A creature silver bullet SB doesn't sound too bad, but we mustn't forget that Recruiter slows us down.
- I'm all for acceleration in some kind of form.

We should go through the numbers how many humans we actually want to run and thus, how many Cavern makes sense. StP, SFM and Flickerwisp still demand white mana, and they're all important key cards that can't be simply brushed aside.
A don't think that a few duals (maybe fetches) and a Magus of the Moon in the 75 as tutor target is out of question.

I do like the idea of Mistveil Plains, as we can recycle destroyed/countered equipment and silver bullets much easier now. Whether or not it's worth the CitP is another question. Being able to get it with fetchlands is noteworthy.

[Curby]

... how many Cavern makes sense. StP, SFM and Flickerwisp still demand white mana, and they're all important key cards that can't be simply brushed aside.

And they're the easier case, because (1) Vial and (2) we could always name Elemental or Artificer on Cavern in a pinch. StP, Rest in Peace, Council's Judgment, etc. are much harder to cast with a grip full of Caverns.

Also, gotta say ETB tapped is the exact opposite of the mana acceleration that we're considering, not to mention that all nonbasics ETB tapped if they have a Heretic Cathar on their side.

[Stevestamopz]

In heavy DnT metas, people will just play 2-3 dread of nights. Massacre can be played around and is easily beaten.

Source: live in a heavy dnt meta.

[Barook]

Imho people should test lists with 4x Recruiter and as many 1-of tutor targets as possible (even if the list goes way beyond 60 cards), just to figure out what is actually tutored for regularly and what is just dead weight.

That should be our starting point. From there, we can slowly shave excess cards or increase the number of cards we want even without tutoring. Sample list:

Maindeck: 69 cards
4x Cavern of Souls
3x Karakas
12x Plains
4x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland

4x Mother of Runes

3x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Spirit of the Labyrinth

4x Flickerwisp
4x Recruiter of the Guard
1x Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1x Banisher Priest
1x Mangara of Corondor
1x Sanctum Prelate
1x Mirran Crusader
1x Stonecloaker
1x Fiendslayer Paladin

4x AEther Vial
1x Batterskull
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Umezawa's Jitte
4x Swords to Plowshares

SB: 17 cards
2x Pithing Needle
2x Rest in Peace
2x Path to Exile
2x Council's Judgment
2x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2x Containment Priest
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Faerie Macabre
1x Leonin Relic-Warder
1x Veteran Armorer

[Curby]

Imho people should test lists with 4x Recruiter and as many 1-of tutor targets as possible (even if the list goes way beyond 60 cards), just to figure out what is actually tutored for regularly and what is just dead weight.

Forgot who said it, but there's the conventional wisdom that you should swing the pendulum really far when testing out a new card. That way you know for sure if 4 is too many, and can rein it back from there. So yeah, makes sense.

[tarmogoat]

Forgot who said it, but there's the conventional wisdom that you should swing the pendulum really far when testing out a new card. That way you know for sure if 4 is too many, and can rein it back from there. So yeah, makes sense.

While it makes sense playing 4 to begin with, I don't think it's a good idea to test 69 card decks.

[Dice_Box]

I would build the deck as you desire and leave three "Blank" cards in the deck. In testing you can turn those cards into what would be best at the time in the situation and write them down. The reason for that fetch and how effective it was. Better than a 69 card pile.

When testing with new cards, I actually leave one outside of my deck, then I can "Draw" it at any time. Sometimes my testing partner will force the draw too when she knows it's a bad time for the card. Basically we just call out "Drawing X this turn" and replace the draw. Let's you see it in all kinds of situations as you wish.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

At 69 cards, you definitely affect the % of drawing any particular card, even if it does serve the purpose of helping you figure out what you want and don't want, you'd have to play a lot more games to figure that out (in addition to playing with a different, albeit similar, manabase)

[Medea_]

Thalia is probably the best card in the deck and the cornerstone of our mana denial plan. Let's not forget that while testing new cards. I would trim one of literally every other card in the deck before Thalia. Many of our builds are going to be decreasing the number of two drops as is, and trimming Thalia certainly isn't going to help with our curve.

[Warden]

Thalia is probably the best card in the deck and the cornerstone of our mana denial plan. Let's not forget that while testing new cards. I would trim one of literally every other card in the deck before Thalia. Many of our builds are going to be decreasing the number of two drops as is, and trimming Thalia certainly isn't going to help with our curve.

While I agree Thalia, GoT amazing, the new Thalia HC + upcoming white cards potentially change the paradigm. You could theoretically deny the opponent from playing anything without Thalia, GoT in the deck.
Between wasteland, ports, Thalia HC, and Prelate you effectively punish players for running fetches and duals + disable them from playing spells of X converted mana cost. You can supplement this plan with Recruiter to tutor for any missing hatebear, Revoker (disable the opponent from using any relevant card), Flickerwisp tricks (make their fetches/duals re-enter play tapped or "combo" to re-use Recruiter), SFM for beats, and Mom for protection. Your flex choices become the other 2cc and 3cc bears that fill needed denial, meta, or beatdown roles. I mentioned it before --- there are a plethora of card options that will pretty much work. The list from @Barook demonstrates what I'm talking about. Any of those 1x bullets are okay to run because at this point in Magic, we have more solid choices that do the job than we have open slots. To find a catch-all or "stock" list using the upcoming white cards is more gameplan and preference dependent.

[iatee]

Thalia is one of the core cards of the deck, but combo has been a shrinking % of the metagame (first thanks to Eldrazi and now it's in even worse shape with Prelate) and decks like the mirror (where she's bad) are going to be a growing % of the metagame. She dies to basically all DnT hate - which is going to be appearing in higher quantities. Playing Imperial, I found myself sideboarding out Thalias more and more over time against fair decks - dies to hate, drawing multiples is card disadvantage, her effect loses value over time and gets worse for me if I'm boarding into removal. I don't think we're at a spot yet where 3 Thalias makes sense, but I could see it in the future. Playing a wider variety of 2 drops (e.g. 3 Thalia, 1 Spirit, 1 Relic Warder, 1 Ethersworn, 2 Revoker) still gives you a lot of t2 plays while also giving you a better maindeck tutor package.

Anyway, the best card in the deck is not Thalia but Aether Vial - which is another reason why testing with 69 cards makes no sense, since you're gonna have fewer Vial games.

Honestly I think the biggest question right now is how many Prelates can be squeezed into the main. I am pretty sure once people start testing it, the answer isn't going to be 1. The card is meta-warping.

[Hyped]

Imho people should test lists with 4x Recruiter and as many 1-of tutor targets as possible (even if the list goes way beyond 60 cards), just to figure out what is actually tutored for regularly and what is just dead weight.

That should be our starting point. From there, we can slowly shave excess cards or increase the number of cards we want even without tutoring. Sample list:

Maindeck: 69 cards
4x Cavern of Souls
3x Karakas
12x Plains
4x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland

4x Mother of Runes

3x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Spirit of the Labyrinth

4x Flickerwisp
4x Recruiter of the Guard
1x Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1x Banisher Priest
1x Mangara of Corondor
1x Sanctum Prelate
1x Mirran Crusader
1x Stonecloaker
1x Fiendslayer Paladin

4x AEther Vial
1x Batterskull
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Umezawa's Jitte
4x Swords to Plowshares

SB: 17 cards
2x Pithing Needle
2x Rest in Peace
2x Path to Exile
2x Council's Judgment
2x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2x Containment Priest
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Faerie Macabre
1x Leonin Relic-Warder
1x Veteran Armorer

This list has 27 lands. -2 cavern - 2 plains - 1 flickerwisp -1 revoker gets us back down to 61 while IMO sacrificing almost nothing.

[Warden]

....Honestly I think the biggest question right now is how many Prelates can be squeezed into the main. I am pretty sure once people start testing it, the answer isn't going to be 1. The card is meta-warping.

This. She's not legendary, so the sky is the limit.
On another note, this discussion has me thinking about Phyrexian Metamorph...

[LeoCop 90]

I think going down to 3 thalia (guardian of thraben) is ok. She is still the best hatebear overall, but we have SO MANY good hatebears right now that playing 4x of a legendary creature isn't worth the risk of having copies of it stranded in hand anymore.

I also am a fan of including some kind of mana acceleration in the deck. Basically, our card quality got so high in recent years that one of the main ways we lose is getting killed too fast by combo decks or out-tempoed by fair decks. Not that we should warp anything, but i think a couple ancient tombs, or 1 ancient tomb, 1 chrome mox could help a lot (especially now that mox card-disadvantage is balanced by recruiter)

[Curby]

Forgot who said it, but there's the conventional wisdom that you should swing the pendulum really far when testing out a new card. That way you know for sure if 4 is too many, and can rein it back from there. So yeah, makes sense.

Whoops, I didn't realize the proposed list was actually 69 cards. I was just talking about the "run 4 to test" part, not the "add everything under the sun simultaneously" part. Anyway.

[drunkenboat]

Hi all,
I Just registered, nice to talk with you.
Former D&T player, I was worried about the competitivity of the deck...
But Wizard Just give us three amazing cards with THC, recruiter and priest.
From now on, I think the deck got too many options so in my oppinion the deck does not need other color even a simple splash. Otherwise, It's not a D&T again. Moreover I guess many of us has chosen D&T cause it's a monocolor deck :)

I read your questions and points.

- We have to play 4 Thalia V.1. 3 legendary creatures could be enough but our curve begins to go higher and higher. Too many 3 CCM cards...
- To solve that issue, we have to accelerate the deck : 3 Chrome mox, better than ancient tomb (DT is not a stompy and we need white mana)
- Someone wrotte a key point : there are too many great cards (which is amazing). From now on, we have to choose a plan before starting deckuilding : Tax plan ? Agressive ? Rather stompy ?

I'll try to propose differents lists.

I am french, so forgive my approximative English, I hope I had not mutilate too much Shakespeare language...

[Finn]

Thanks for the contribution, Drunkenboat. I think I agree with the major point, and i suppose most of us have been sloshing that idea around. Let's not screw up the mana curve. Part of the current crop of problems is that we do not entirely know how important Prelate is going to be for this deck. Recruiter is well-studied. THC has proven itself. There have been a number of new ideas that make sense. I feel that we have increased capacity to win the long game. But our short game is not improved. My thinking is that we need to maintain those cards that enable us to make it to the long game. Drawing an extra TGT sucks, but we are better equipped than ever to handle that scenario. Holding a grip full of stuff that costs 3 is not solved by the new toys. So with these things in mind, I have an updated preliminary decklist to propose.

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Karakas
2 Cavern of Souls
7 Plains

4 Mother of Runes
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Recruiter of the Guard
3 Flickerwisp
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Sanctum Prelate
1 Mangara of Corondor
1 Banisher Priest
1 Mirran Crusader

4 Swords to Plowshares

2 Chrome Mox
4 Aether Vial
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull


Sideboard
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Fiend Hunter
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Veteran Armorer
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Containment Priest
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Council's Judgment
2 Rest In Peace
2 Enlightened Tutor

Note that I have swapped two Horizon Canopy for Caverns of Souls. And notice the Chrome Mox additions in place of two Plains. I'm looking forward to exiling a TGT to the mox to power out a duplicate on turn 1.

[iatee]

If we're gonna play acceleration, I think it might be better off in the SB, for the matchups where you really absolutely need it. At the end of the day, we're still a fair control deck, and fair control decks don't want to be topdecking Chrome Moxes and starting games off behind on resources. (Or with 12 Life thanks to Ancient Tomb.) I just don't think we need to be upping the variance in the deck.

Finn, as far as the short game goes, playing large numbers of Path to Exile in the SB has proven great for me. Make sure you don't die the first few turns and then just play better cards than they do the rest of the game. Doesn't help against all fast combo, but helps against the majority of the decks that beat us with speed. (Reanimator, Burn, Eldrazi, Delver, Infect.)

[drunkenboat]

I do like your list.
Maybe I'd change some details :
You play 15 humans. Wouldn't be better with 3 caverns of souls ?
4 Karakas sounds too Much. You play 2 chrome mox, you can put out one karakas in my opinion.
If You play 2 chrome mox and only 2 caverns of souls, maybe you can play just 3 mom but 4 SFM. SFm stays in the curve and is the best DT's créature with Thalia V.1. Plus, we don't play Serra avenger anymore. We need some threads to put the pressure. Jitte Sfi and batterskull have to touch the board as soon as possible.

[Curby]

@Finn, interesting looking list. My main concern is that it drops much of the air force which was historically important in blocking Delvers, getting Jitte counters against Wirewood Symbiote, etc. I get that the new additions help against those matchups too, so it will be nice to see how things shake out. I'm also curious how staying on 23 mana sources (instead of adding artifacts beyond 23) will play out.

P.S. Moms and Thalia-1s being the only playsets is a good sign: it means we have so many good cards that we can't find the room to run playsets.

[drunkenboat]

@Finn, interesting looking list. My main concern is that it drops much of the air force which was historically important in blocking Delvers, getting Jitte counters against Wirewood Symbiote, etc. I get that the new additions help against those matchups too, so it will be nice to see how things shake out.

I agree. Maybe we have to play 4 flickerswip. 2 avenger ? 1 Vryn ?

[drunkenboat]

I propose :

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan
3 Karakas
2 Caverns of soul
4 Plains
2 Canopy horizon

3 Chrome mox

3 Mother of runes
2 Serra avenger
4 Thalia gardian of the thraben
4 Stoneforge mystic
1 Phyrexian revokater
4 Recruiter of the guard
4 Flickerswipp
2 Sanctum prelate
1 Mirran cruisader
1 Mangarra of the condor
1 banisher priest


4 Swords to plowshares
1 Jitte
1 Sword of fire and ice
1 batterskull
4 aether vial

[monovfox]

revoker should never go below 3 IMO. The card is one of our best turn 2's. Same with thalia. Remember, if we get behind early we usually stay behind.

Also if we're running recruiter we should definitely be running eldrazi displacer. The value is unreal.

[Curby]

Also if we're running recruiter we should definitely be running eldrazi displacer. The value is unreal.

I was an early fan of Displacer, and would love to see it work. Unfortunately, it's not tutorable, we can't afford to run too many copies, and randomly lucksacking into one at the exact right time is too unreliable.

[iatee]

Flickerwisp already essentially plays the Recruiter engine role. Can't afford a 3 drop that you can't tutor.

[monovfox]

It's not like our deck is suddenly completely reliant on recruiter to do anything. Displacer is a fine card to draw by itself.

[drunkenboat]

Displacer is not tutorable, it does not fly, CCM is 3 in our deck which is overwelhmed by CCM 3 cards.
I played it in small tournaments and does not help me as Much as I wished.
Does not help VS Miracle, Storm, Elves, Burn.
Nevertheless, it's good against Eldrazi, mirror and BUG. SB card ?

[redtwister]

@Finn
I suppose if we use cards]Chrome Mox[/cards] to power out creatures a small percentage of the time, that is the way to do it.

In general on our relative CMC, I would like to propose we consider the following numbers and compare them to, say this list from Japan, or the 5th place list from the SCG Classic in Dallas. I am not here concerned with whether the card is merely CMC X, but whether or not it can be played on curve as CMC X.

A new list would probably look close to this (I am not adding in Chrome Mox, that would make this harder to do at the moment.)
CMC 1: 12
4 Mom
4 Vial
4 StP

CMC 2: 11
4 TGT
3 SFM
1 Revoker
1 SotL
1 Jitte

CMC 3: 13
3 Recruiter
3 THC
3 Flickerwisp
1 Mirran
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Stonecloaker
1 SoFaI

CMC 5: 1
1 Batterskull

Yamashita Taiki's list (http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=12946&d=275405&f=LE) is below (and he ran an odd list with 28 creatures and note that I am considering Serra Avenger a 3-drop as far as being on curve is concerned because it can be played on turn 3 only with Vial and becomes a turn 4 play if we have to hard cast it.)
CMC 1: 12
4 Mom
4 Vial
4 StP

CMC 2: 14
4 TGT
4 SFM
3 Revoker
2 SotL
1 Jitte

CMC 3: 12
3 Serra Avenger
4 Flickerwisp
2 Mirran
1 Mangara
1 Brimaz
1 SoFaI

CMC 5: 1
1 Batterskull

Steven Fremin's list (http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=12863&d=274725&f=LE) from SCG Classic Dallas is next. his list is classic. Sure, he could have had Mirran Crusaders, Brimaz, and Serra Avenger, but that doesn't impact the cards playable on turn 3. The only way he could have had a better 2:3 ratio would be to add 1-2 Spirit of the labyrinth because there is no other 2-drop that anyone regularly plays in the main.
CMC 1: 12
4 Mom
4 Vial
4 StP

CMC 2: 13
4 TGT
4 SFM
4 Revoker
1 Jitte

CMC 3: 11
4 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Flickerwisp
2 Mangara
1 Vryn Wingmare
1 SoFaI

CMC 5: 1
1 Batterskull

This is a shift from 12/14/12 in one competitive list and 12/13/11 in another competitive list to roughly 12/11/13. I don't think these examples are unusual because a lot of players who win run 1+ Mirran Crusader, 2+ Serra Avenger and 3+ Flickerwisp. In fact, it is very rare to see a deck with less than 10 cards that are effectively CMC 3, in part because the best 2-drops in the deck remain Thalia 1.0, Stoneforge Mystic, and Phyrexian Revoker. We have gotten some great 3-drops but we have seen only a single major 2-drop since Thalia 1.0, Spirit of the Labyrinth, and no one has run more than 2 of those main since Treasure Cruise was banned, and that is rare enough.

We are talking cmc 2 going from 21.67% of the 60 to 18.33% and cmc 3 going from 18.33% to 21.67% of the 60. I think if that is the shift, it is not going to punish us nearly as often as the additional power and consistency gained by the new cards will improve it. Realistically, I would suggest that at least 25-50% of the time, Serra Avenger has to be considered as played on turn 4.

I would also like to mention that while Thalia in your opening hand is pretty much always what you want to see Game 1, there are many match-ups where SfM and Revoker on turn 3 or 4 is just fine (the exceptions being creature combo, but against non-creature combo I want Thalia and then Revoker anyway, but against Painter I want Revoker. I want Revoker + SfM against Elves and even there I probably play SfM, get Jitte, and see if there is something I absolutely, positively have to Revoker instead of just getting in Jitte. Against Sneak and Show I want Revoker with Thalia, and Thalia still gets played first.)

So if we are not reducing Thalia for non-creature combo, nothing we are doing makes those games worse overall, nor does it reduce our chance to hit a valid 2 drop overall.

Against Delver, sure I am happy to see SfM or SotL turn 2, but I would still really want to hit Thalia more so. In fact, I want Mom-Thalia-whatever as my curve or Vial, Thalia, vial in Mom in response to protect it, then everything else.

In other words, the key is to not reduce the number of Mother of Runes, Aether Vial, Swords to Plowshares, and Thalia 1.0 because those are the cards we want to see with the highest consistency. I also left out that frequently our best turn 2 play is tap them down with Rishadan Port...

Of course, for people who want to take out a Mom or drop even more CMC 2, then the shift is considerably bigger and something like maindeck Chrome Mox makes sense. I would like someone better at maths than I am to give me an idea of how likely I am to see a 3 drop and a Chrome Mox in my opening 7 and 8, if I run 2 or 3 of them. Also, it would be good to know what 21 lands and 2 Chrome Mox does to our mulligans, whcih are currently very good because it seems to me that we end up risking tossing our only playable spell in a mulligan to 5 slightly more frequently, which I do not like.

[drunkenboat]

@redtwister :
It dépends on how many drop 2 you are playing.
Indeed Chrome mox is valuable to Play drop 2 turn one.
TGT or SFM for sure.
I was refered to chrome mox because now you have potentially 8 CA cards (SFM and recruiter) and You Can play horizon canopy.
You are right : avenger is a turn 3 or 4. But what flying creatures do we have ?

[Finn]

This is a good perspective, Redtwister. My thinking is also along those lines. It would suck to draw two Chrome Mox in a single game, but I think that the benefits of having it in your opening grip would be pretty huge. And my point is that our ability to win the long game appears to have gotten better, if only we can get there in good shape. My substitution of Chrome Mox in place of Plains is not primarily designed to make up for the missing percentage points of 2-drops. It is meant to take advantage of the superior cards and card advantage made available to us so that we can steal extra games that we would otherwise have lost simply by getting out ahead.

A note on this: I get in a lot of semi-casual play - for years now. That means that I get to try out stuff that we normally don't see in D+T. My experience with Loxodon Gatekeeper led me to see immediately what THC would be like. Similarly, I get to play with a Mox Pearl in this environment - long story. I can tell you that getting Aven Mindcensor or Batterskull on turn 2, or TGT on turn 1 moves the game considerably to your advantage. I can only imagine the benefits of Prelate or THC on turn 2.

There will be card disadvantage. Iatee makes a good point. But we now have more card advantage than we have ever had before. And stronger control cards. I want to see if it is worth it. That is the way traditional stax does it. With stronger lock parts, maybe we can too. I would also consider going with one Chrome Mox and one Ancient Tomb. That might work.

[redtwister]

@Finn and drunkenboat
I'm not against Chrome Mox per se and it might even make a lot of sense with Recruiter, THC, Prelate and SfM. I would love to play all of our most powerful hate a turn earlier!!!

I am against the panic over a presumed but unproven dramatic shift in our ability to make critical turn 2 plays. Our best turn 2 plays are typically Thalia, SfM, Rishadan Port activation and Revoker, and roughly in that order, Game 1, with my noted exceptions. Game 2, we are siding in 2 drops still anyway.

It would be good to have some maths around it though, to sharpen and focus the picture, as it were, and I would definitely like to know the impact on mulligans. That is important to me because I think DnT has always mulliganed well because of our redundancy, but now we are talking more 1-ofs and maybe cards that require us to discard cards.

[iatee]

With 2 Chrome Mox in the deck, we'd see one about 20% of opening hands. Can just pretend you'll always have 2 white cards to make things easier. With 4 and 4 we see a SfM or Thalia about 65% of the time. Rough estimate, 10-15% of hands would have busted t1 plays, more would have busted t2 plays. But 80% of games Chrome Mox isn't in your opening hand. It's a very, very bad card to draw into, it's essentially the same as skipping your draw step. People can (and should) test with it, but I already know what the results are gonna be. "Sometimes it was awesome and sometimes it was terrible." I would rather play a consistent deck - we're trying to lower the inconsistency of a higher curve but we're doing it by adding the same (if not more) inconsistency elsewhere. I don't think Chrome Mox and Aether Vial are ever going to be good fits in the same deck. I'd even play a Spirit Guide over it - you can at least Vial that dude in.

[Barook]

@redtwister: Good post.

While all the tutor targets are fine and dandy, I do wonder if Eldrazi Displacer doesn't become even better now, despite being not tutorable:

1) Potentially a higher number of Cavern and thus, more colorless mana sources.
2) Better quality targets - now we not only have SFM for CA, but also Recruiter. Also resetting Prelate and Revoker on the fly, if necessary, or disabling a permanent with Flickerwisp.
3) Fantastic card in the mirror.
4) Combines with the now tutorable Containment Priest post-board for the creature nuke combo

I think 1-2 copies should be tested in a Recruiter list, even with the limited slots we have.

[drunkenboat]

@Iatee : that's true. Thus, I see two main options :
- A non "curve" game with lot of drop 3. The list should countain at least 3 chrome mox. Why not 1/2 tomb ?
- A "curve" game. No chrome mox or tomb. So you have to maintain a good curve because you won't always get a Vial in opening hand. It means all 2 drop we have played before conspiracy 2 have to be remained. Could mean too play 3/4 other 1 CCM Creatures plus mom like judge and/or Kytheon.

Concerning the issue of drawing a mox in middle or late game : yes it's terrific. In the same time drawing a Vial or a mom after turn 4 is not always good for us...

[Fry]

I've been thinking on the mana acceleration thing and I still really like the Imperial Recruiter, I've been playing the full set of them and have loved every minute of it. I'm thinking of going to a 2-3 split Guard-Imperial and keeping my 3 main board Magus of the Moon, I just think they're too powerful to not abuse.

With the red of Imperial I am thinking of trying out perhaps 1 Chrome Mox and 2-3 Simian Spirit Guides, they aren't dead later on as they wield equipment well and Dread of Night does nothing to them. It's a 1 shot accel, but it can also shock an opponent who plays Daze when you suddenly keep your Magus is you don't have Cavern, or stick turn 1 Vial on the draw.

I'm going to be testing it out on Tuesday (my only weekly Magic night, sadly), and I'm going to work on a revised list for that time. I'm thinking off the top of my head that I will try 2-3 Prelates and have 2 Thalia HC. I've since dropped from my 3 SFM to 2 over the past couple weeks and haven't had any issues with it with my 4 Imperials.

[redtwister]

I'm not worried about it, we have 160 cards left to spoil, I am sure one of them is this (probably basis (https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1183&bih=947&q=priest+fuck+you&oq=priest+fuck+you&gs_l=img.3...2775.4741.0.5189.15.8.0.7.2.0.67.442.8.8.0....0...1ac.1.64.img..0.9.402...0j0i5i30k1.BpR4q7F8mIw#imgrc=ZWH8Wsy8NBBglM%3A) for the art?):
Shaman Spirit Guide
1W, 2/2
Human Spirit
Exile Shaman Spirit Guide from your hand: Add {W} to your mana pool.

[Barook]

Grab your Burger King crowns, folks!

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cp7QxwVW8AEsCjJ.jpg

http://mythicspoiler.com/cn2/cards/palacejailer.jpg

I know, I know, 4 mana sucks. But then again, it's another removal spell that is tutorable with Recruiter and can be made uncounterable with Cavern on Humans. If they can't damage you in a reasonable timeframe, you draw a crapton of cards. The most important part is that it works very well with Flickerwisp, as the leave trigger doesn't return the creature when Palace Jailer leaves the battlefield. But all of them come back if you lose your monarch token.

Could easily be a SB card, if not MD material, depending how strong it turns out.

Edit: Also yet another card that synergizes extremely well with Displacer.

[LegacyIsAnEternalFormat]

Grab your Burger King crowns, folks!

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cp7QxwVW8AEsCjJ.jpg

http://mythicspoiler.com/cn2/cards/palacejailer.jpg

I know, I know, 4 mana sucks. But then again, it's another removal spell that is tutorable with Recruiter and can be made uncounterable with Cavern on Humans. If they can't damage you in a reasonable timeframe, you draw a crapton of cards. The most important part is that it works very well with Flickerwisp, as the leave trigger doesn't return the creature when Palace Jailer leaves the battlefield. But all of them come back if you lose your monarch token.

Could easily be a SB card, if not MD material, depending how strong it turns out.

Edit: Also yet another card that synergizes extremely well with Displacer.

So you could get this killed and not have the exiled creature come back for the rest of the game?

[Zombie]

So you could get this killed and not have the exiled creature come back for the rest of the game?

If they don't hit you, yes.

[LegacyIsAnEternalFormat]

If they don't hit you, yes.

Actually, what I wanted to know is that if this dies,whether or not there is no way for opponent to get his exiled creature back, because I thought the "exile this creature until you aren't the monarch anymore" ability only lasted as long as this is in play, but apparently not.

[Barook]

In Magical Christmasland, you can play this T4 (of Cavern, of course :wink:), exile a creature, then Vial in Flickerwisp, exile another creature and then draw a card EoT. That's +3 CA right of the bat, and +1 CA for every other turn you stay the Monarch.

That's actually insane when you think about it, as it isn't as Magical Christmasland as you'd think.

[TheRabbler]

I wonder if Palace Jailer could take the place of Banisher Priest when it's run alongside Chrome Mox; it would more than make up for the card advantage lost from Mox and it provides an actual blocker if we're behind. At the very least it seems like a reasonable sideboard option for when we need to actually draw cards in a matchup.

Sent from my LG-D850 using Tapatalk

[iatee]

Banisher Priest is for creature heavy match-ups. This is actually bad in creature heavy matchups because you can just end up tossing them a Howling Mine if you fall behind. You really want the monarch effect against something like Miracles, but you don't care about the Fiend Hunter effect in that matchup. So it's an awkward fit. I don't think this is super far from being playable but is probably a little too high variance. If there's a 3 mana monarch creature in white, it's going to have a lot of potential.

[Jon]

I played and won a small monthly at a local shop. Here is my list.

4x Mother of Runes
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3x Phyrexian Revoker
3x Stoneforge Mystic
2x Serra Avenger
1x Jotun Grunt
1x Mangara of Corondor
2x Thalia, Heratic Cathar
4x Flickerwisp
2x Eldrazi Displacer
1x Umezawas Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Batterskull
4x Aether Vial
4x Swords to Plowshares
9x Plains
4x Wasteland
4x Rishadan Port
1x Cavern of Souls
1x Mishras Factory
1x Ghost Quarter
3x Karakas
SB:
1x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2x Pithing Needle
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Cataclysm
1x Crackdown
1x Fiendhunter
2x Rest in Peace
1x PTE
2x Ethersworn Cannonist
1x Containment Priest
1x Seal of Cleansing
1x Blessed Alliance

I will do a real write up after I wake up from the nightmare I am in where Diaz just lost to McGregor.

[monovfox]

What is blessed alliance doing in your sideboard?!

Wait, it's just strictly better celestial flare. Makes sense

[snorlaxcom]

I will do a real write up after I wake up from the nightmare I am in where Diaz just lost to McGregor.

total bs :mad:

[klaus]

I've tested Chrome Mox in a myriad of archetypes over the years, and especially wanted to make it work in UG/WB/UB/UBW/UGBW Fish. Why? Because two-drops such as Bob, SFM, SCM, Strix etc. immediately make up for its card disadvantage. And guess what: Chrome Mox never ever really delivered, despite the fact that each deck featured cantrips to filter them away after the early game!
Now with D&T we're talking zero filtering and, while it still looks nice on paper, I guarantee the idea will be dropped altogether soon.

Hierarch is our best bet, if we're geared to support more three-drops. I'm aware that'd warp the archetype a tad, but I guess our new toys have already done that indirectly.

Here's a draft off the top of my head:


4 Cavern of Souls
4 Savannah
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
(-21-)

3 Noble Hierarch (can be cast off 9 mana sources and Vial)
3 Mother of Runes
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Flickerwisp
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Sanctum Prelate
1 Mangara of Corondor
1 Banisher Priest
1 Mirran Crusader

4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte


SB:
3 Rest In Peace
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Leonin Relic-Warder / Pridemage
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Fiend Hunter
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Veteran Armorer
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Containment Priest
1 Faerie Macabre
2 Choke
1 Gaddock Teeg

-

I'm aware we give up a stable mana base that way, but with Hierarch and Vial, I'm happy for other decks to sling their Wastelands.

[LMental]

Hey all,

Longtime reader, infrequent poster. Just did a little write-up about my expectations from Conspiracy 2, especially concerning Death & Taxes. Nothing revolutionary or too different from what I've seen here, but perhaps an accurate summation of what people have been saying? Let me know what you all think!

https://fetchlandformats.wordpress.com/2016/08/21/the-most-exciting-legacy-cards-in-conspiracy-2-why-dt-might-now-be-tier-1/

Thanks,
Ian

[JamesFlipside]

I played and won a small monthly at a local shop. Here is my list.

4x Mother of Runes
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3x Phyrexian Revoker
3x Stoneforge Mystic
2x Serra Avenger
1x Jotun Grunt
1x Mangara of Corondor
2x Thalia, Heratic Cathar
4x Flickerwisp
2x Eldrazi Displacer
1x Umezawas Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Batterskull
4x Aether Vial
4x Swords to Plowshares
9x Plains
4x Wasteland
4x Rishadan Port
1x Cavern of Souls
1x Mishras Factory
1x Ghost Quarter
3x Karakas
SB:
1x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2x Pithing Needle
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Cataclysm
1x Crackdown
1x Fiendhunter
2x Rest in Peace
1x PTE
2x Ethersworn Cannonist
1x Containment Priest
1x Seal of Cleansing
1x Blessed Alliance

I will do a real write up after I wake up from the nightmare I am in where Diaz just lost to McGregor.

Dude, kudos on the Jotun Grunt... Never considered that but seems to make total sense!

[LMental]

@Jon - I'd considered Jotun Grunt in the past, but kinda felt like it wasn't great to have a threat that sticks around for a few turns at most. How did he perform?

[JamesFlipside]

Hello all,
"Long time listener, first time caller"
Only been playing magic for the past 18 months after a long break... I was playing standard, they printed JaceTMS... Lets just say i kinda rage quit :cry:
Aaaanyway.
Pretty new to D&T after a while playing Miracles variants as a way to get my head round the format and back into the game generally.

Thought id post my amateur opinion after a good six hour play testing session yesterday.
This was my list (no SB, was testing main deck and i really struggle with SB anyway... just never quite know what to include and how to swap)

4 Mother
3 Thalia GoT
4 Stoneforge
2 Revoker
1 Canonist
4 Flickerwisp
2 Mirran
3 Recruiter OTG
2 Prelate
1 Thalia HC
-
4 STP
4 AEther V
1 Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword F&I
-
4 Port
4 Waste
3 Karakas
3 Cavern
9 Plains

My feelings in no particular order.
I felt like we need four Thalia GoT and in retrospect the idea of exchanging for Canonist is just wrong due to inconsistency.
Revoker count felt too low, yes i could recruiter for them when needed but against delver etc i feel like i just wanted them in hand by T2/T3 to stop deathrite.
My general feelings about Recruiter and Prelate:
Prelate is an absolute bomb and often is just T3 i win.
Recruiter is pretty underwhelming in application without a vial on 3. Yes in an idea world you just always have a vial on 3 but i had a lot of games where vial gets forced and i'm in a corner where i need to hard cast Recruiter.
Hard cast its a three mana 1/1 do nothing. Still an amazing card but i think i just had the numbers too high.
The old list works so well that it doesn't need cantrips or filtering and messing with the main deck too much i think screws this up.

I really agree with an earlier poster who eluded to the fact that we now need to chose our game plan before building a list.
With this in mind these are the revisions i made this morning with a jug of coffee and a few **** (that's cigarettes in English, it wasn't "that sort of morning":wink:)

4 Mother
4 Thalia GoT
4 Stoneforge
4 Flickerwisp
3 Revoker
2 Recruiter OtG
2 Prelate
2 Thalia HC
1 Mirran
-
4 STP
4 AEther Vial
1 Jitte
1 Sword of F&I
1 Batterskull
-
4 Port
4 Waste
3 Cavern
3 Karakas
9 Plains

My idea is a human tax direction more than an aggro/stompy style.
The human archetype gives the caverns so much consistency and changing the core as little as possible i think will generally maintain the decks original consistency anyway.
I wont get a chance to play test this properly until next weekend most likely and in the meantime ill be looking at a SB plan.
Between Caverns and Vials Magus of the Moon seems easy as well as potentially Meddling Mage and possibly many others.

What I know i'll struggle with now is selecting the utility creatures to bring in from board.
Might sling a third copy of Recruiter in SB for matchups that go a little longer and require consistent answers to specific threats/cards.

Also, random thought...
Anyone got any experience with Sword of Light and Shadow? Just wondering if the option to recycle recruiter targets might be nice.
Though admittedly if I'm connecting with an equipped creature i should be winning anyway...
Just a though.

Look forward to your insights and go easy... I'm a noob :tongue:

[MasterBlaster]

@JamesFlipSide, I like your list. The changes I would make for myself are -1 SFM, -1 Prelate, +1 Mirran, and +1 Mangara. But I don't know if that would be any better.

[Jon]

Well the event started off on a good note. Soon as I walked in the TO had me signed up, paid, and had my normal ritual ready at the counter ( Dr. Pepper and Gummy Wurms ). I built my deck with the understanding that I wanted 0 dead cards post board if possible for each match up. After spending 3-4 hours the previous night examining list and sideboards. I settled on a main deck and started to build my sideboard. Knowing how many cards I wanted to remove for each deck, it allowed me to choose cards with good overlap for multiple matches so I could fit more high impact cards. Not having brainstorm and ponder I felt it was important to have the maximum impact cards possible so that when drawn, they make the difference they need to.

Round one, after failing to give a shit about the player meeting I notice I am not signed up for the event. Since there was an odd number, they gave me the bye. This allowed me to walk around and mise and see what other folks are playing. I have a complete metagame breakdown which I will post at the end. Let me say this, there were 4 burn players.....

Round two, I get called to the feature match to play against my teammate and testing donkey, Iman from Cairo. I know he is playing some dumpster pile of 4 color stoneblade deck. You can see the match here. There is no commentary.

https://www.twitch.tv/tuskvision/v/84692971?t=01h11m31s

I feel fairly favored in these matches, I know the only way he can beat me is cast True Name Ape so my #1 goal is to keep him off magic as much as possible. If you watch the game you will see I carried out my game plan as best as my hand allowed. I feel he made a few missteps and I was able to seize the opportunity and crush his anus.

Round 3 , I know my opponent and I feel super confident about the match up. Its the Show and Ape player. I get pretty salty after this match. Game one I lead Karakas into Vial. Cavern into Thalia. his turn 3 City, Island, Island -> Show and Tell -> Omniscience -> Emrakul...... Sick deck. G2 I mulled and got bloodmooned. I wished him luck but secretly hoped he would step on a Vietnamese landmine.

Round 4 , Once again I am faced with someone I know and I feel like I am going to be leaving early to drink. My opponent was a local player who doesnt play legacy but has burn and has only played twice. His first time played was GP Columbus where he top 16'd. He beat me in the 6-0 Bracket at the GP. I end up taking the match 2-1 after using Ethersworn Cannonist to slow him down and using Displacer as a wall and to flicker his attacking Eidelon and pressure his life total. After resolving a Eidelon after my vial he was unable to keep up the race.

Round 5 , ID with another local burn player. Sick getting lava spiked so much this event.

Top 8 , Same opponent I drew in with. He is one of the more prominent burn players locally but he is a child. I took is solidly after he resolved an Eidelon and Pillar while I had a Vial out. It really seems that this match comes down to a race and eidelon is generally on our sides.

Top 4 , I get to play another teammate and friend who is playing ApeDrazi. It was a pretty reasonable game. I drew 7 wastelands between two games. #Skillgame

Finals , Iman from Cairo again. You can watch the video for this one with shitty commentary .

https://www.twitch.tv/tuskvision/v/84692971?t=06h21m29s

Overall I am impressed with the deck. Anyone interested in my SB guide let me know and I can post it.



@Jon - I'd considered Jotun Grunt in the past, but kinda felt like it wasn't great to have a threat that sticks around for a few turns at most. How did he perform?

I have a foil Spanish one so I had no choice but to play it. I drew it exactly 0 times.


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[JamesFlipside]

@JamesFlipSide, I like your list. The changes I would make for myself are -1 SFM, -1 Prelate, +1 Mirran, and +1 Mangara. But I don't know if that would be any better.

-1 SFM + Mirran might prove decent but it does slightly increase the number of 3 cmc which is something I feel slows us and gives us too many risky hands. It's a fine line:
Don't really agree with taking a prelate out, it's just too good! Two gives you a better chance to draw it by T3 and gives redundancy. Against storm you put it on 4 and smile, 1 on delver and smile etc etc. I think it adds so much to the tax angle.
Play testing may always prove you right though. Do let me know how you get on!

[Jon]

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160821/12609aa6f013932108a4568add7fec59.jpg

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160821/e6226452e3ee0d3886de58452857d91d.jpg

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160821/7aca5a76899eb6805dd3df1f6e997f0f.jpg

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

[JamesFlipside]

Well the event started off on a good note. Soon as I walked in the TO had me signed up, paid, and had my normal ritual ready at the counter ( Dr. Pepper and Gummy Wurms ). I built my deck with the understanding that I wanted 0 dead cards post board if possible for each match up. After spending 3-4 hours the previous night examining list and sideboards. I settled on a main deck and started to build my sideboard. Knowing how many cards I wanted to remove for each deck, it allowed me to choose cards with good overlap for multiple matches so I could fit more high impact cards. Not having brainstorm and ponder I felt it was important to have the maximum impact cards possible so that when drawn, they make the difference they need to.

Round one, after failing to give a shit about the player meeting I notice I am not signed up for the event. Since there was an odd number, they gave me the bye. This allowed me to walk around and mise and see what other folks are playing. I have a complete metagame breakdown which I will post at the end. Let me say this, there were 4 burn players.....

Round two, I get called to the feature match to play against my teammate and testing donkey, Iman from Cairo. I know he is playing some dumpster pile of 4 color stoneblade deck. You can see the match here. There is no commentary.

https://www.twitch.tv/tuskvision/v/84692971?t=01h11m31s

I feel fairly favored in these matches, I know the only way he can beat me is cast True Name Ape so my #1 goal is to keep him off magic as much as possible. If you watch the game you will see I carried out my game plan as best as my hand allowed. I feel he made a few missteps and I was able to seize the opportunity and crush his anus.

Round 3 , I know my opponent and I feel super confident about the match up. Its the Show and Ape player. I get pretty salty after this match. Game one I lead Karakas into Vial. Cavern into Thalia. his turn 3 City, Island, Island -> Show and Tell -> Omniscience -> Emrakul...... Sick deck. G2 I mulled and got bloodmooned. I wished him luck but secretly hoped he would step on a Vietnamese landmine.

Round 4 , Once again I am faced with someone I know and I feel like I am going to be leaving early to drink. My opponent was a local player who doesnt play legacy but has burn and has only played twice. His first time played was GP Columbus where he top 16'd. He beat me in the 6-0 Bracket at the GP. I end up taking the match 2-1 after using Ethersworn Cannonist to slow him down and using Displacer as a wall and to flicker his attacking Eidelon and pressure his life total. After resolving a Eidelon after my vial he was unable to keep up the race.

Round 5 , ID with another local burn player. Sick getting lava spiked so much this event.

Top 8 , Same opponent I drew in with. He is one of the more prominent burn players locally but he is a child. I took is solidly after he resolved an Eidelon and Pillar while I had a Vial out. It really seems that this match comes down to a race and eidelon is generally on our sides.

Top 4 , I get to play another teammate and friend who is playing ApeDrazi. It was a pretty reasonable game. I drew 7 wastelands between two games. #Skillgame

Finals , Iman from Cairo again. You can watch the video for this one with shitty commentary .

https://www.twitch.tv/tuskvision/v/84692971?t=06h21m29s

Overall I am impressed with the deck. Anyone interested in my SB guide let me know and I can post it.




I have a foil Spanish one so I had no choice but to play it. I drew it exactly 0 times.


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What's that WW 2/2 "you have shroud" guy?
Seems OK for storm variants and burn...
Maybe

[MasterBlaster]

What's that WW 2/2 "you have shroud" guy?
Seems OK for storm variants and burn...
Maybe

True Believer. Thalia 1.0 and Ethersworn Canonist seem like better hate cards to me for those matchups. But there is always room in the sideboard for another hate bear to tutor for game 2 and 3.

[Jon]

True Believer.

Card is unplayable.

[MasterBlaster]

Card is unplayable.

Meh, there are better cards. But True Believer could be a bitch with Mother of Runes active in some matchups. I would run other cards though.

[Hencules]

Hey all,

Longtime reader, infrequent poster. Just did a little write-up about my expectations from Conspiracy 2, especially concerning Death & Taxes. Nothing revolutionary or too different from what I've seen here, but perhaps an accurate summation of what people have been saying? Let me know what you all think!

https://fetchlandformats.wordpress.com/2016/08/21/the-most-exciting-legacy-cards-in-conspiracy-2-why-dt-might-now-be-tier-1/

Thanks,
Ian

Cool article! One cool bullet I missed may be the most high-impact one: Magus of the Moon. It plays really well in a mono white list with 4 vial and 3 caverns. You tutor and lock down most decks and it's a nice surprise :)

[LMental]

Cool article! One cool bullet I missed may be the most high-impact one: Magus of the Moon. It plays really well in a mono white list with 4 vial and 3 caverns. You tutor and lock down most decks and it's a nice surprise :)

Thanks! While I'm a huge fan of Magus in the WR lists floating around, I think 3 Cavern + 4 Vial isn't enough to support it in Mono White--even 4 Caverns wouldn't be enough, to be honest. You won't consistently get Vial on 3 either. So I'd say for Magus you need the Red Splash -- and a major appeal of RotG is moving away from that splash. I don't think the list needs Magus at this point but hey, I could be wrong.

[Barook]

I've tested Chrome Mox in a myriad of archetypes over the years, and especially wanted to make it work in UG/WB/UB/UBW/UGBW Fish. Why? Because two-drops such as Bob, SFM, SCM, Strix etc. immediately make up for its card disadvantage. And guess what: Chrome Mox never ever really delivered, despite the fact that each deck featured cantrips to filter them away after the early game!
Now with D&T we're talking zero filtering and, while it still looks nice on paper, I guarantee the idea will be dropped altogether soon.

Hierarch is our best bet, if we're geared to support more three-drops. I'm aware that'd warp the archetype a tad, but I guess our new toys have already done that indirectly.

Here's a draft off the top of my head:


4 Cavern of Souls
4 Savannah
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
(-21-)

3 Noble Hierarch (can be cast off 9 mana sources and Vial)
3 Mother of Runes
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Flickerwisp
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Sanctum Prelate
1 Mangara of Corondor
1 Banisher Priest
1 Mirran Crusader

4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte


SB:
3 Rest In Peace
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Leonin Relic-Warder / Pridemage
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Fiend Hunter
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Veteran Armorer
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Containment Priest
1 Faerie Macabre
2 Choke
1 Gaddock Teeg

-

I'm aware we give up a stable mana base that way, but with Hierarch and Vial, I'm happy for other decks to sling their Wastelands.
If I wasn't buy with moving into my new apartment, I would probably have more time to screw around with a GW list. Noble Hierarch should be better utility than Chrome Mox. I don't like going down to 21 lands as you did. KotR as tutor target might be interesting to fetch mana denial. I would also run at least 2 basic Plains and more fetches over Duals to ensure stable mana. 4 Cavern seems a bit excessive.

Meanwhile, I'm goldfishing around a bit with a 3x Chrome Mox version of D&T, but it's kinda hard to rate an interactive deck like D&T without an opponent. What I got out of it so far in a vakuum is that you do want to run 4x SFM and 4x Recruiter in a Chrome Mox version to get maximum CA out of it. So there's that.

Geier Reach Sanitarium left a pretty good impression on me so far in goldfishing that I actually want to test 2 of it. Gets rid of the other copy of it, dead Chrome Moxen, excess legends or spells that are locked out under Prelate. I don't run Spirit in the MD atm, but that might change if Sanitarium is the real deal. If we want to run Chrome Mox, we do need some filtering. It all depends how much profit your opponent could get out of it (or not, in case Spirit is online).

Edit: A few questions regarding the Chrome Mox version should be focused on imho:
- How important is THC? Is she worth it to be run in multiples or should she only be a tutor target?
- Same goes for Prelate - how many should we run MD? 1 as tutor target? Or multiples, assuming it's really that strong? Both THC and Prelate lock out things differently.
- Is Spirit of the Labyrinth worth a MD slot, especially with multiple Sanitariums?
- Is Mangara MD material? I never missed him in my Mono W D&T and despite being tutorable now, I question how often I would actually fetch for it pre-board, given how strong our toolbox now is. He should definitely be in the 75, though.
- Do we really need more than 1 Revoker MD now?
- Jailer needs testing, at least in the 75.

[zebotc]

Firstly I'm definitely not opposed to the idea of using Recruiter and Mox but I felt these questions had to be asked because they seem like fairly significant problems that could come up with this strategy.

I've been thinking about the new recruiter of the guard and it does seem like it could be good on paper. However I do have some questions about it. The main issue is that it is a 3 drop and raises our curve a lot. While this shouldn't be a problem I also feel like it could be for various reasons, but firstly I'm honestly not sure chrome mox really is the answer. Chrome mox is basically two for one-ing ourselves by pitching a card just to get a hate card on turn one/two that MAY stick. The vast majority of legacy is interaction and I strongly feel like pitching our valuable cards in our hands to speed up isn't necessarily the best answer because other then the recruiter we have 0 ways to replenish our hands. Not only that but chrome mox I feel really makes the deck play more like a combo deck. I don't mean that literally but what I mean is that in games that you use it if you get it out on turn one and use all of your resources to focus on a few high impact creatures and the opponent has enough interaction then the deck just runs out of gas really quickly. I'm not completely opposed to the idea of using it but I think we would need to test it a lot and as Finn suggested I think if we did use it a 2 of would be a good amount. However it does just seem really aggressive and possibly a bit greedy in the overall scheme of what our deck actually does. On paper it seems amazing but then we have to ask how many times are we going to actually just be screwed over by it in an actual game? Not only that but chrome mox basically is another land. It doesn't do anything except speed up our deck sometimes and seems to be incredibly situational its only a value play sometimes.

On the other hand in the games that you do get it turn 1/2 it can be very good but again it seems just really really aggressive.

Recruiter does have the ability to significantly improve our late game, and consistency overall but again I really feel like perhaps the way to go is a 2 or 1 of as a sort of cantrip. One of the strengths I feel with our deck is that every single one of our cards not only disrupts our opponent but makes our board state vastly more impressive and recruiter does neither of these. Albeit it searches for a card that could do this, but in actuality we are paying 2W for a 1/1. I think that the search ability can be very good at points but at other times it just seems meh- it raises our curve, barely makes an impact on our board, and forces us to cut valuable cards. Not only that but we already have incredibly strong tutorable hate cards like enchantments and artifacts using Enlightened tutor which is only W, it doesn't raise our curve and is much easier to recover from due to it's low mana cost if its disrupted. So once again on paper it seems good but in actuality how much will it really help our game plan against the vast majority of legacy?

[Tormod]

Jotun grunt was a staple in this deck many moons ago

[iatee]

Thanks! While I'm a huge fan of Magus in the WR lists floating around, I think 3 Cavern + 4 Vial isn't enough to support it in Mono White--even 4 Caverns wouldn't be enough, to be honest. You won't consistently get Vial on 3 either. So I'd say for Magus you need the Red Splash -- and a major appeal of RotG is moving away from that splash. I don't think the list needs Magus at this point but hey, I could be wrong.

Magus isn't any greedier than Batterskull, they're effectively as difficult to fairly put into play (hardcasting a 5 drop in legacy vs. drawing one of 3 lands) - you play them because the reward for getting them into play is so huge.



Recruiter does have the ability to significantly improve our late game, and consistency overall but again I really feel like perhaps the way to go is a 2 or 1 of as a sort of cantrip. One of the strengths I feel with our deck is that every single one of our cards not only disrupts our opponent but makes our board state vastly more impressive and recruiter does neither of these. Albeit it searches for a card that could do this, but in actuality we are paying 2W for a 1/1. I think that the search ability can be very good at points but at other times it just seems meh- it raises our curve, barely makes an impact on our board, and forces us to cut valuable cards. Not only that but we already have incredibly strong tutorable hate cards like enchantments and artifacts using Enlightened tutor which is only W, it doesn't raise our curve and is much easier to recover from due to it's low mana cost if its disrupted. So once again on paper it seems good but in actuality how much will it really help our game plan against the vast majority of legacy?

Getting the perfect SB card to win the matchup or to get out of a situation helps win against the vast majority of legacy. I started out playing Imperial Taxes with 2 Recruiters, moved to 3 and then eventually 4. I kept increasing the number because I found myself hoping to draw into that card more than anything else. It can be clunky and slow when you don't have a Vial and you give up some consistency there, but you make up for it by winning games where you used to be praying for good topdecks.

I played at the SCG Classic today and had the worst matchup luck in my life - my first 5 matches included: Oops All Spells, Jund, Elves, Infect. I actually beat Oops and came very close with the other 3, but the tournament was very obviously not a good place for DnT, I've never seen so many Belcher decks in a room, lotta of Elves too. Too bad, was hoping to do better at the last big tournament I'll get to play o.g. Recruiters and Pia/Kiran.

[FeX]

Firstly I'm definitely not opposed to the idea of using Recruiter and Mox but I felt these questions had to be asked because they seem like fairly significant problems that could come up with this strategy.

I've been thinking about the new recruiter of the guard and it does seem like it could be good on paper. However I do have some questions about it. The main issue is that it is a 3 drop and raises our curve a lot. While this shouldn't be a problem I also feel like it could be for various reasons, but firstly I'm honestly not sure chrome mox really is the answer. Chrome mox is basically two for one-ing ourselves by pitching a card just to get a hate card on turn one/two that MAY stick. The vast majority of legacy is interaction and I strongly feel like pitching our valuable cards in our hands to speed up isn't necessarily the best answer because other then the recruiter we have 0 ways to replenish our hands. Not only that but chrome mox I feel really makes the deck play more like a combo deck. I don't mean that literally but what I mean is that in games that you use it if you get it out on turn one and use all of your resources to focus on a few high impact creatures and the opponent has enough interaction then the deck just runs out of gas really quickly. I'm not completely opposed to the idea of using it but I think we would need to test it a lot and as Finn suggested I think if we did use it a 2 of would be a good amount. However it does just seem really aggressive and possibly a bit greedy in the overall scheme of what our deck actually does. On paper it seems amazing but then we have to ask how many times are we going to actually just be screwed over by it in an actual game? Not only that but chrome mox basically is another land. It doesn't do anything except speed up our deck sometimes and seems to be incredibly situational its only a value play sometimes.

On the other hand in the games that you do get it turn 1/2 it can be very good but again it seems just really really aggressive.

Recruiter does have the ability to significantly improve our late game, and consistency overall but again I really feel like perhaps the way to go is a 2 or 1 of as a sort of cantrip. One of the strengths I feel with our deck is that every single one of our cards not only disrupts our opponent but makes our board state vastly more impressive and recruiter does neither of these. Albeit it searches for a card that could do this, but in actuality we are paying 2W for a 1/1. I think that the search ability can be very good at points but at other times it just seems meh- it raises our curve, barely makes an impact on our board, and forces us to cut valuable cards. Not only that but we already have incredibly strong tutorable hate cards like enchantments and artifacts using Enlightened tutor which is only W, it doesn't raise our curve and is much easier to recover from due to it's low mana cost if its disrupted. So once again on paper it seems good but in actuality how much will it really help our game plan against the vast majority of legacy?


I couldnt agree more with you.
chrome mox seems bad in death and taxes and too many recruiter is going to be bad as well, especially for those who want to run 4 of it without some kind of good acceleration.
i dont see the new recruiter as the new corner stone or go-to-option for our deck. i rather see it being played as some kind of mid-late game card advantage engine after we've already established our board and already played our other threats. like something more reactive that searches us the right piece for a certain situation to really push the game in our favor.
when i think about it, i feel 2 might be a good number for it, cause in my book there is nothing worse than having 2-3 of those in the opening hand, rather than actual threats.we are still playing legacy after all and too many of those will be too slow. drawing into 1 of the recruiters after we've already played or stuff though...this will be great and is going to find us the card we need in the situation. imo, it will be a great supportive card rather than the cornerstone of the deck, cause on its own it virtually does nothing on the field.
i could also see a third copy being played in the SB for match ups where you really need that ONE silver bullet.

[zebotc]

Magus isn't any greedier than Batterskull, they're effectively as difficult to fairly put into play (hardcasting a 5 drop in legacy vs. drawing one of 3 lands) - you play them because the reward for getting them into play is so huge.



Getting the perfect SB card to win the matchup or to get out of a situation helps win against the vast majority of legacy. I started out playing Imperial Taxes with 2 Recruiters, moved to 3 and then eventually 4. I kept increasing the number because I found myself hoping to draw into that card more than anything else. It can be clunky and slow when you don't have a Vial and you give up some consistency there, but you make up for it by winning games where you used to be praying for good topdecks.

I played at the SCG Classic today and had the worst matchup luck in my life - my first 5 matches included: Oops All Spells, Jund, Elves, Infect. I actually beat Oops and came very close with the other 3, but the tournament was very obviously not a good place for DnT, I've never seen so many Belcher decks in a room, lotta of Elves too. Too bad, was hoping to do better at the last big tournament I'll get to play o.g. Recruiters and Pia/Kiran.

Yes I agree that they can be good in certian situations but what about all the other match ups and situations? The card is in most games just a 1/1 for 3 and it relies on aether vial and or a lot of mana up to really get mutch value. I strongly feel like our deck is better suited to running creatures that both affect the board state and disrupt our opponent. A 4 of may work in some metas but it just seems really greedy because a lot of the time it's a very low value/slow card. We need to have tempo against a lot of decks in this format and recruiter does not give outright tempo advantage like a Thalia or Revoker or even Serra avenger would. Then also what happens if you don't draw into aether vial? The card looses so much of its value without it and it's very common to play a game where you don't draw a vial until turn 4 if even at all. I understand the argument that it lets us search our library for silver bullets but we aren't a toolbox deck we are a white weenie deck fundementally revolved around making a board state and disrupting our opponent. If we wanted a toolbox strategy we should be using green Suns zenith and be playing teeg and pridemage. I also think enlightened tutor is arguably better in a lot of situations because it's not only 1 mana and an instant but it also lets you search for about half of the same disruptive cards like revoker and ethersworn but it also allows searching for spells like rest in piece and chalice of the void which just absolutely completely hose strategies.

As @FeX said I think it could work as a 1 or 2 of just to get that extra value and game winning pieces if we need it in the late game. But a 4 of is just really aggressive. It's a good card don't get me wrong, but it just doesn't really seem like it helps our core strategy that much, it's more of a supplement in a lot of situations that helps us ensure a win. Being flooded with them in an opener or even drawing two in a lot of games is just really slow. When we could be actively disrupting or effecting the board state with different threats.

I get how in certain Metas and situations it could be good but generally in the grand scheme of things unless you know exactly everything you are going to face it just feels really bad to run 4 of and draw 2-3-4 in a game rather than drawing active and efficient threats. The deck does lack from card advantage and I feel like that's one of the reasons people wanna play it - because it provides a search effect, an effect that is successful in so many decks and something we've never really efficiently had. But it's honestly not that efficient and I think we'd be better suited running 1-2. Or sticking with the much quicker and easier to recover from enlightned tutor plan.

[Kagehisa]

4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Karakas
1 Ancient Den
9 Plains / fetchlands + basics if SDT is real

4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Recruiter of the Gard
4 Stoneforge Mystic

4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Flickerwisp

1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Ethersworn Canonist / Mirran Crusader
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar / Spirit of the Lab
1 Sanctum Prelate / the 4th Flickerwisp

SB
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Peace Keeper
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Containment Priest
etc

22 lands only, I couldn't find what to cut for the 23rd land. One land is Ancient Den and is tutorable by the 4 Enlightened Tutor. It can help to play around Massacre when you need to have WW. (Karakas → Tutor → Den)

The 4 Tutor, 4 Recruiter, 4 Stoneforge Mystic are lots of shuffling effects. Maybe Sensei's Divining Top is worth a slot in the 75 but the lands configuration needs more fetchlands.

With 4 tutors, you can grab Vial, equipment, Revoker and Canonist (and Den) to have strong disruptive turn 2 plays (4 Thalia and 4 Tutor played turn 1 and the 2 hatebears).

Yes, it is card disadvantage but the Stoneforge Mystic package and now the Recruiter package (with Flickerwisp) are *maybe* enough to mitigate the loss.

Also, Recruiter works better with Vial which you play 8 now.

Enlightened Tutor, Recruiter and Stoneforge might be the 4 of. Non-blue decks want consitency too. Now you have but people will want power over consistency...

[Luca Grease]

Magus isn't any greedier than Batterskull, they're effectively as difficult to fairly put into play (hardcasting a 5 drop in legacy vs. drawing one of 3 lands) - you play them because the reward for getting them into play is so huge.

It only took me 1 game against BUG testing Magus as a 1-of in the board with 4 Cavern of souls maindeck to sell me on the card. I still don't think it's maindeck material for mono white, but as you said, the upside against so many popular (and potentially problematic) decks is so huge that it's worth the occasional inconsistency. Simply put, a tutorable, uncounterable "I win in most board states" card against BUG, Eldrazi, Lands, Aggro Loam, 12Post, etc. is too good to pass up if you have a reasonable chance of making it work. =



Getting the perfect SB card to win the matchup or to get out of a situation helps win against the vast majority of legacy. I started out playing Imperial Taxes with 2 Recruiters, moved to 3 and then eventually 4. I kept increasing the number because I found myself hoping to draw into that card more than anything else. It can be clunky and slow when you don't have a Vial and you give up some consistency there, but you make up for it by winning games where you used to be praying for good topdecks.


Ridiculous Enlightened Tutor suggestions aside, I understand the concern people have with raising the curve and slowing down to the point where we are too far behind against aggressive decks/ allow control decks to set their locks in place before we truly get going. The way to do that, in my opinion, is to not shave our best on-curve 2 drops, namely Thalia and Mystic. Revoker, on the other hand, is rarely the turn 2 play you're looking for, so shaving a couple is fine.
Keeping a core of 4 Thalia, 4 Mystic, and a healthy number of additional 1-mana removal in the sb (with path being the clearly superior option) should give us the respite we need to reign the more aggressive decks in until we get our improved late game going. Seriously, playing against all-nonbasics delver with 3 PtE is addition to 4 Plows almost feels like cheating...

[Pilhas]

I believe if we go to under 12-13 2 drops we really need some mox.
Since I don't have good experience with chrome mox I will be running a 4 stonef/thalia + 3 revoker +1 spirit. Still thinking that I should have 1 more just for curve concerns.
In the 1 drop department I believe going down to 3 moms is still viable with the eldrazis that are around.

[iatee]

It only took me 1 game against BUG testing Magus as a 1-of in the board with 4 Cavern of souls maindeck to sell me on the card. I still don't think it's maindeck material for mono white, but as you said, the upside against so many popular (and potentially problematic) decks is so huge that it's worth the occasional inconsistency. Simply put, a tutorable, uncounterable "I win in most board states" card against BUG, Eldrazi, Lands, Aggro Loam, 12Post, etc. is too good to pass up if you have a reasonable chance of making it work.

Yeah 12-Post in particular goes from being a very difficult matchup to a good one. I think if we go to 4 Caverns (which is probably reasonable and good Daze protection regardless) there might even be room for another cheat-splash SB card like Orzhov Pontiff or Cunning Sparkmage.



Ridiculous Enlightened Tutor suggestions aside, I understand the concern people have with raising the curve and slowing down to the point where we are too far behind against aggressive decks/ allow control decks to set their locks in place before we truly get going. The way to do that, in my opinion, is to not shave our best on-curve 2 drops, namely Thalia and Mystic. Revoker, on the other hand, is rarely the turn 2 play you're looking for, so shaving a couple is fine.
Keeping a core of 4 Thalia, 4 Mystic, and a healthy number of additional 1-mana removal in the sb (with path being the clearly superior option) should give us the respite we need to reign the more aggressive decks in until we get our improved late game going. Seriously, playing against all-nonbasics delver with 3 PtE is addition to 4 Plows almost feels like cheating...

I'm not really concerned about the control decks (I've played hundreds of games with Recruiters vs Miracles and it's the single card I want to see in my opening hand the most after Aether Vial) - but yeah, aggressive decks are more of a problem when we push our curve up. The 3 PTE plan has won me the last few matches vs Grixis Delver, which was the only tier 1 deck that I felt like I had a losing record vs. when I was playing ~13 3 drops. I kept trying to find tutor targets to solve the matchup, but all you need to do vs aggressive-but-threat-light decks is stop being cute and just kill literally every creature they play. When you do, you're right, it feels unfair.


Yes I agree that they can be good in certian situations but what about all the other match ups and situations? The card is in most games just a 1/1 for 3 and it relies on aether vial and or a lot of mana up to really get mutch value. I strongly feel like our deck is better suited to running creatures that both affect the board state and disrupt our opponent. A 4 of may work in some metas but it just seems really greedy because a lot of the time it's a very low value/slow card. We need to have tempo against a lot of decks in this format and recruiter does not give outright tempo advantage like a Thalia or Revoker or even Serra avenger would.

Overall a Recruiter toolbox build is much slower than Serra Avenger tempo DnT and sometimes you'll lose the game because of it. But that's a risk that can be hedged with the sideboard. On the other hand - previous builds of DnT lost games *all the time* to *everyone* because they drew the wrong cards at the wrong time and topdecked a Mom or a second Thalia when they needed a specific answer. This wasn't just a minor issue, this is one of the reasons people didn't even consider picking up the deck. Literally every other t1 legacy deck is filled with card selection, absent maybe Eldrazi but even they have Eye of Ugin for late game inevitability. People can still play more tempo-based builds of DnT that have better g1s vs aggro if they want to, but I suspect that most people are going to realize that they win more games when they have as much or sometimes more card selection than their Brainstorm opponents. It won't always work out, it will just work out more often than not, and when it does you tend to win. There is no strategy that is best against everything, the question is what strategy is strongest against the field, and I think that's going to be the more flexible strategy.

The only reason I question maxing out on Recruiters is because...we might actually want to play 4 Prelate. I think it's going to take some time for the meta to adjust to the card, and maybe it won't be as powerful eventually once people are playing more answers to it, similar to TNN, but in the short-term I think I just want to be landing t3 Prelates through Cavern...

P.S. People should really stop theorycrafting with Chrome Mox and start playtesting with it. Then you can quickly remember why it's a terrible card outside of t1 combo. It is just not a very good Magic card. We are a control deck and are better than ever at playing a long game. Miracles players don't play Lotus Petal to power out t1 Counterbalance. You don't need to have busted openings, you just need to not die right away. As far as ramp goes, I think Noble Hierarch is the only thing worth really testing, because it's not actually a terrible card on its own.

[Warden]

....Recruiter does have the ability to significantly improve our late game, and consistency overall but again I really feel like perhaps the way to go is a 2 or 1 of as a sort of cantrip. One of the strengths I feel with our deck is that every single one of our cards not only disrupts our opponent but makes our board state vastly more impressive and recruiter does neither of these. Albeit it searches for a card that could do this, but in actuality we are paying 2W for a 1/1. I think that the search ability can be very good at points but at other times it just seems meh- it raises our curve, barely makes an impact on our board, and forces us to cut valuable cards. Not only that but we already have incredibly strong tutorable hate cards like enchantments and artifacts using Enlightened tutor which is only W, it doesn't raise our curve and is much easier to recover from due to it's low mana cost if its disrupted. So once again on paper it seems good but in actuality how much will it really help our game plan against the vast majority of legacy?

Life has been chaotic, so I was only able to goldfish a few configurations last night. I thought I was crazy, but I reached a similar conclusion while testing green-and-taxes and maverick shells. I was having problems doing something meaningful. If I got the preferred sequencing of T1 dork -> T2 Recruiter, I'm not pressuring the opponent then and there. Instead, I'm leveraging a shitty "now" for a better "future". It is the same feeling as SFM grabbing equipment. I got a bullet I really wanted, but ultimately the tutored card sits in hand. And the deck has less meat-and-potatoes when running a full suite of Recruiters. There is upside. The highs are very high: Perfect sequencing of 1 drop, Thalia GoT, Recruiter, a guaranteed solid "this is what I need" card the next turn. However, the lows are low: Two or three turns of lackluster stuff.

I think part of the issue is needing to mitigate Recruiter itself being pathetic on the board. Whereas all other hate bears do something (even SFM --- as she can "cheat" equipment), Recruiter is literally a waste of a body on the table. I think someone much smarter than me will figure out how to combine her with stuff like Cabal Therapy for value.

I also feel decklists can take bigger risks. Cavern, Vial, and Noble/DRS open up the idea of running a singleton Magus of the Moon main. This means you can disrupt mana early and then disable it entirely after Magus comes out. Then there's Meddling Mage --- turning combo/miracles into Recruiter --> Canonist, Meddling, Revoker, Thalia GoT. Let's also explore the potential of painter's servant. Laugh at the idea, but a small Painter-Grindstone package synergizes with existing Enlightened Tutors and pro-color perks from equipment/mirran crusader.

There are lots of possibilities. At the moment, I think the better solutions won't bank on needing 4x Recruiter.

[whysoseriouss]

Hi everybody, i'm a new writer but i've been following your thoughts for a couple of months.
Let's take a look. Could this list be a good point to start crazy testing?

4x Thalia 1.0
4x mom
4x SfM
3x Flicker
3x Recruiter
2x Prelate
2x Revoker
2x Thalia 2.0
1x Mirran crusader
1x Magus
1x SotL

4x vial
4x stp
3x equip

3x Karakas
4x Waste
4x Port
4x CoS
8x Plains

SB

3x PtE
2x RiP
2x E. Canonist
1x C. Priest
1x Faerie m.
1x Prelate
1x Magus
1x Manriki
1x Revoker
1x Mirran c.
1x Leonin r w

I forgot. I always play 61 cards, 61 cards is my religion.

[Finn]

Iatee, I agree that testing is what we are onto at the moment. I would sure like to get some in, and I certainly will. But I hope we can get some more folks to do so also.

to ALL: Please do some testing with a desired build and return with some numbers or at least impressions.

---On Chrome Mox (and to a lesser extent Ancient Tomb and even lesser extent Noble Hierarch): The idea here is to leverage card disadvantage for a stronger board presence. That includes the strong possibility that you can make up that disadvantage due to that board presence. This is the way STAX is built. I do not think any of us are in a position to say for sure if our new cards warrant that approach. We do not know how strong the combination of THC, TGT, Revoker, and especially Prelate together will be at disabling opposing decks in practice. Or precisely how these choices will affect our use of Recuiter to get them. And so on...

The point is that the stronger the control elements are, the more sense it makes to accelerate into them. It is POSSIBLE that we might decide to trim Swords to Plowshares from the main in the face of a very strong showing from Prelate. But if our disruption package turns out to simply be only mildly more effective, then the short-term disadvantage makes less sense and we should not use acceleration. The proposition of 2x Chrome Mox from me is a starting point. As is the 2x Prelate. We start there to find out which direction to go. And I bet it will not take long for a consensus to arise. (Frankly, I will be starting with four of each to speed up the testing procedure.)

---The value of Recruiter: Not a waste of a body unless you are facing combo. There are matchups where Thalia is the play on turn 2, but there are some for which I prefer Mystic. Mystic represents a danger for the opponent. It has done damage and could continue to do so unless you deal with it now - especially if you fetched Batterskull. Recruiter is the same. Flicker it once and you get a free creature. Ask the Imperial guys if this is a big deal. It is. I GUARANTEE you that opponents will be Lightning Bolting this creature if you fetched a Flickerwisp.

---The need for a strong turn 2 play: I am on board with the guys who think this is critical. We need to max out on 2-drops (and possibly acceleration to make out 3s look like 2s.)

[iatee]

Recruiters look innocuous, but when you have equipment in your deck, any additional body has the potential to be a threat. I throw a Jitte on these guys and put them on suicide missions pretty regularly. Against Eldrazi or Goyf blocking with a Recruiter becomes a way to stall time while setting up your board - Demonic Tutor + gain 5 life is not actually the worst against an aggro deck. A body is rarely irrelevant in a format where the board usually doesn't contain more than a handful of permanents.

Finn, I would play a Path to Exile as a 5th STP in the main before I went to 3 STPs. Prelate on 1 + STP is nonbo, but so is Monastery Mentor and Terminus. Sometimes it's awkward, most of the time you're just happy to have so many powerful cards in your deck, and you attempt to sequence them well. Additionally, no Serra Avengers leaves you weaker to an actual Delver.

[DarthVicious]

I've actually been testing a version with zero spot removal, FWIW. I plan on including 3-4 MD Recruiter and 2 MD + 2 SB Prelate. Not having removal MD surprisingly hasn't been a serious issue, and it opens up more variety for creatures MD. I lose more games to not having dudes on the board than I do to opposing dudes. Or ladies, in our case... more creatures in this deck have female pictures than male, I think. Thalia 1&2, Mom, SFM, Avenger, even Prelate and Recruiter if I'm not mistaken. Mangara, Mirran, Wisp, and Revoker are the only ones clearly not female, and two of those are asexual. Anyway, it really allows me to run 3-4 Avengers main, which is huge considering how influential a flier can be.

Edit: I should also mention I'm testing a playset of Deserts also, probably on the SB for the more combat oriented matchups. I also have a Basilisk Collar and a Godsend that Stoneforge can fetch up if need be.

[Barook]

@Finn & @iatee: I would really test Sanitarium in regard of filtering dead cards. I think it's worth exploring.

Recruiter by itself is already a huge threat, simply because of the horde of "free" Flickerwisps it can summon if left alone.

[klaus]

@Finn & @iatee: I would really test Sanitarium in regard of filtering dead cards. I think it's worth exploring.

Recruiter by itself is already a huge threat, simply because of the horde of "free" Flickerwisps it can summon if left alone.

I'd play Sensei's Divining Top before Sanitarium, simply because tapping 3 lands for a symmetrical effect seems bad. What is more, there are easily over a dozen archetypes that actually benefit from discarding cards of their choice, while we don't.

[Fry]

Getting the perfect SB card to win the matchup or to get out of a situation helps win against the vast majority of legacy. I started out playing Imperial Taxes with 2 Recruiters, moved to 3 and then eventually 4. I kept increasing the number because I found myself hoping to draw into that card more than anything else. It can be clunky and slow when you don't have a Vial and you give up some consistency there, but you make up for it by winning games where you used to be praying for good topdecks.
.

When I started with the Imperial splash I started with 3 Recruiter and 3 Magus, I very quickly went up to 4 Recruiters and never even considered dropping any Magus, they're all simply so darn powerful. I'm alright with "wasting" a turn, as some of you guys have been saying it, to get a chump blocker and a critter I really need. They are also why I've won several games against Miracles. I fully intend on testing out a total of 5 recruiters in my build tomorrow night in a 2-3 split. They both have their uses, Thalis 2.0 and Flickerwisp being tutorable is amazing, and getting Fiend Hunter or Kor Skyfisher is wonderful too.

[Hermit7]

Brand new to the forums but have just finished buying into D&T.

Have the standard list right now, but will be adding the recruiters and the prelates when they come out. Probably going to wait a bit to see how the deck shakes out before ordering (ports are pricey😂).

Here is what I am going to run.

4 Mom
4 Thalia
4 stoneforge
2 revoker
3 recruiter
2 prelate
2 Mirran crusader
2 Thalia Heretic
3 flicker wisp

4 vial
4 swords
1 Batterskull
1 sofi
1 jitte

3 karakas
4 wasteland
4 port
3 cavern
9 plains

Now sure of the sudeboard as of yet, though I think with recruiter the 3 drops can become more flex spots, and we can use them to find our sideboard pieces much more reasonably.

Something like this perhaps.

2 canonist
2 containment priest
1 pitching needle
2 Gideon ally of zendikar
2 rest in peace
1 banisher priest
1 cataclysm
2 councils judgement
2 path to exile

[Stevestamopz]

Jesus this thread has gone down deep down the rabbit hole lately.

Anyway, I just want to make the comment that I think all of the original Imperial Taxes players know: filling your deck with 3 mana 1/1s and taking out or shaving the brute force cards (Avenger/Crusader) means it does not brawl as effectively as it used to.

I remember playing a long grindy game against BURG Aluren (the one with shardless agent in it) with OG Imperial Taxes (3 Recruiter, 3 Magus, pre P+K or the Skyfisher tech) and watching as all my equipment got dealt with and I was left with a board of 1/2s and 1/1s - which match up very poorly against Deathrite Shaman and Shardless Agent.

It was Pia and Kiran Nalaar's printing that brought me back to the deck and has kept me there. P+K rewards you for playing a much more value based game because:
1: it is fucking insane by itself;
2: it synergises so well with the deck (equipment, vial, karakas, human etc), but most of all:
3: it rewards you for playing a longer game, which you are trying to do with Recruiter.

Now, getting to this stage of the game is quite a bit tricky sometimes but that's fine because Imperial Taxes has the turn 3 or 4 "I Win" button in Magus of the Moon. I am not convinced that new Taxes has this and I don't consider Prelate to be on that level. It is obviously very strong against some decks but a turn 3 chalice is still quite slow remember.

Mono white does not have access to these cards, which makes me wonder about the number of New Recruiters that should be played. Playing 3 or 4 makes sense in Imperial Taxes, but not in normie DnT. I would probably play 2 new recruiters at most and still play 2 Serra Avengers.

Something like:

4 Æther Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Flickerwisp
2 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Mangara of Corondor
2 Mirran Crusader
4 Mother of Runes
2 Serra Avenger
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Sanctum Prelate
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Cavern of Souls
3 Karakas
10 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

SB: 1 Sanctum Prelate
SB: 2 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Council's Judgment
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
SB: 3 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 2 Rest in Peace

Mindbreak Trap in the SB because I imagine with this deck becoming close to over-powered there's going to be a lot of TES, Belcher, Oops etc running around to lol at our plans of getting to turn 2.

[colo]

Mindbreak Trap in the SB because I imagine with this deck becoming close to over-powered there's going to be a lot of TES, Belcher, Oops etc running around to lol at our plans of getting to turn 2.

I definitely see this happening. Mark Stevestamopz's words (and stock up on Minbreak Trap if you don't already have a playset, I guess :)).

[zebotc]

Jesus this thread has gone down deep down the rabbit hole lately.

Anyway, I just want to make the comment that I think all of the original Imperial Taxes players know: filling your deck with 3 mana 1/1s and taking out or shaving the brute force cards (Avenger/Crusader) means it does not brawl as effectively as it used to.

I remember playing a long grindy game against BURG Aluren (the one with shardless agent in it) with OG Imperial Taxes (3 Recruiter, 3 Magus, pre P+K or the Skyfisher tech) and watching as all my equipment got dealt with and I was left with a board of 1/2s and 1/1s - which match up very poorly against Deathrite Shaman and Shardless Agent.

It was Pia and Kiran Nalaar's printing that brought me back to the deck and has kept me there. P+K rewards you for playing a much more value based game because:
1: it is fucking insane by itself;
2: it synergises so well with the deck (equipment, vial, karakas, human etc), but most of all:
3: it rewards you for playing a longer game, which you are trying to do with Recruiter.

Now, getting to this stage of the game is quite a bit tricky sometimes but that's fine because Imperial Taxes has the turn 3 or 4 "I Win" button in Magus of the Moon. I am not convinced that new Taxes has this and I don't consider Prelate to be on that level. It is obviously very strong against some decks but a turn 3 chalice is still quite slow remember.

Mono white does not have access to these cards, which makes me wonder about the number of New Recruiters that should be played. Playing 3 or 4 makes sense in Imperial Taxes, but not in normie DnT. I would probably play 2 new recruiters at most and still play 2 Serra Avengers.

Something like:

4 Æther Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Flickerwisp
2 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Mangara of Corondor
2 Mirran Crusader
4 Mother of Runes
2 Serra Avenger
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Sanctum Prelate
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Cavern of Souls
3 Karakas
10 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

SB: 1 Sanctum Prelate
SB: 2 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Council's Judgment
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
SB: 3 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 2 Rest in Peace

Mindbreak Trap in the SB because I imagine with this deck becoming close to over-powered there's going to be a lot of TES, Belcher, Oops etc running around to lol at our plans of getting to turn 2.

Yeah, it makes sense that it would be better in a red splash but like you said in mono white we don't necessarily have enough to back it up.

I got a chance to do some testing yesterday, I only goldfished but my goal was to see what effect on turn 1-2-3-4-5-6 chrome Mox and recruiter would have on the game and I gotta say it was meh. I was running normal stock DnT taking out a few cards to playtest with specifically 4 chrome Mox and 4 recruiter (ik many people wouldn't run a full playset but I did it because I wanted to accelerate the testing and the probability of drawing more than 2 is still pretty low.)

I took some notes while testing so here they are - sorry they are kinda sparadic:
"It seems like, even with chrome mox having to many three drops in the deck is not beneficial, The deck is a tempo control deck at heart and cannot afford so many high cost cards. The two drops are the sweet spot and without them the deck becomes to slow.

While a turn one thalia is good, it completely hoses you for the late and mid game. Dropping 4 of the 7 cards in your hand is far from beneficial and many times at least one of those 3 cards left is either an aether vial or a land which in no way helps our strategy at all.

Chrome mox is just like running simian spirit guide but worse because it seriously provides enourmous card disadvantage and honestly recruiter does not provide enough reasonable card advantage to back this up. In all of the games I tested the majority of the time if chrome mox had been a hate bear instead the late game would have been better.

A 4 and possibly even a 3 or 2 of is just way way way to aggressive, and we are not an aggro deck. We cant afford to loose any card advantage because our deck is fragile in that aspect.

Now on ROTG, Its a good card but agian maybe only a 2 of, Its incredibly slow and honestly I feel like actually lowers our mid and early game consistency greatly."

So in conclusion chrome Mox really really seemed to hose all of our decks inevatibility in the mid and late game to focus on getting out a single hate bear. And Recruiter of the guard imo doesn't provide enough card advantage to back this up even as a 4 of. It felt really really bad to even play a chrome Mox because many times in order for it to be effective which would be turn 1-2 you are either dumping a swords to plowshare or another hate bear which you are already lacking in numbers of. Then you're left with three cards in hand assuming you didn't mulligan and one of them is usually a land, or a card that won't do much. Recruiter of the guard was alright but even so too many three drops with chrome Mox still just didn't seem to work well. It felt really clunky and using all your resources to get out 1 hatebear on turn 1-2 that MAY stick because it's gonna get removed in most MU was just eh. I mean I can see how in some match ups it'd help but in a lot of situations I feel like the mid game is way more important.

Now onto recruiter, again it's a good card but it being a three drop and something that doesn't affect the board state directly at all was just really slow. I understand you could attach an equipment to it but that's the ideal situation. And we will not always be in ideal situations when playing. However in spite of this After testing imo a 1 or 2 of could be really effective as a supplement to squeeze as much value as we can out of our deck. I'd even consider maybe running one MB and put 1-2 in the SB because it is fairly good in a few MU's

[AsmodeusDM]

Just wanted to confirm Stevestamopz words...

As a long-time imperial player you really do miss those bodies that can brawl.... a few month ago I switched back to mono-white for a tourney (because it was low level and I was expecting a lot of burn,D&T,etc... and didn't need the magus's) and I was delighted DELIGHTED by having access to Serra Avenger again or multiple copies of Mirran Crusader... it just felt so powerful.


Also want to add that I have been playing a P+K in the main for almost 3 months now and that card is just so...freaking...gross. When I played it vs. half my opponents they honestly look so flummoxed and hopeless against what it represents. The first time I ticked a vial to 4 and then vial'd it in with a Karakas at the ready... my shardless opponent looked ready to scoop.

I'm not saying that the imperial version is still better; being mono white has a lot of advantages. But cutting all your threats to make room for things that find threats (that aren't threats themselves) can be a little counter-intuitive.

[RobNC]

Serra Avenger and Mirran Crusader have won me more games than any other card with D&T (I run two of each), but I also have a LGS with a lot of Shardless and Lands variations. I have no doubt that Recruiter will be awesome, but I don't want to lose out on those two cards either.

[tarmogoat]

I think the recruiter paradigm should be addressed in this way:

Are you going to play a diversity of creatures in you mainboard to support a toolbox effect when you play a Recruiter? If yes, play 3/4. If no, play 0/1.

Are you OK in your metagame and don't really need to warp your deck to have good results? If no, consider playing Recruiter. If yes, consider playing recruiter in your board as a 1/2 of, this way you board it in as a threat density in the matches when you know if you draw X you win/deal with the game state.

Are you playing Imperial Taxes already? If yes consider a 5/6 split among the recruiters (as in 1/4, 4/1, 3/3, 3/2, 2/3, 4/2, 2/4) and you'll play the most diversified toolbox taxes in the county. If no, ask yourself 'would I play Imperial Taxes?'.

I'll play 2 maybe in the main, maybe in the board or even a split.
Remember that boarding in a recruiter is essentially the same as boarding in a Crusader + Thalia GT/HC + Mom + Wisp + whatever bullets you already have in your MD. I say this cause this has been discussed all the way as it only warps your deck. You can play recruiter profitably without warping your deck, but making it more consistent instead. It's the very definition of a flex slot for those who don't want to play toolbox.

[OlegtheSuper]

Why do you all discuss the Recruiter? He will be just 1 in your deck. Sanctum Prelate - is IMBA! 4 in main 100%

[Jon]

I'm on 1 recruiter and 2 Prelates now . I'm not willing to give up Avengers and Displacer.

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[Warden]

I'm on 1 recruiter and 2 Prelates now . I'm not willing to give up Avengers and Displacer.

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Jon, just curious if you could post your list (easier rather than ask how many of card X, Y, and Z you run).
2 Prelates been enough for you? I'm considering running 4x in the 75 but cant decide how to mix and match it. I may ultimately settle on 3x because of space.

[Jon]

I'll post the list tomorrow after work.

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[Luca Grease]

The problem with stocking up on prelates in the main, imo, is that it will make us weaker to the now-likely more common mirror, Eldrazi, and other creature based Maverick style lists. Personally, I'm still a bit reluctant to max out on it against delver, especially when we're playing 7 1-mana removal spells post board.

Also, after a few games against miracles with the new cards, I have realized that it is now better not to cut most plows, since our increased lategame power means that they will now try to fight us with creatures like Staticaster, aggressive Mentors, and Sulfur Elemental more than ever post board. This is something Imperial players had mentioned before and that I never really understood playing mono white, but when you have access to the pressure engine of Recruiter and the safety of Prelate, it becomes much easier to justify that plow sitting in your hand, especially since you know that they've almost certainly taken out their CBs against your 3-4x caverns. For the same reason, I think that Council's Judgement is better then Cataclysm in the board (mirror and Eldrazi included).

[Warden]

The problem with stocking up on prelates in the main, imo, is that it will make us weaker to the now-likely more common mirror, Eldrazi, and other creature based Maverick style lists. Personally, I'm still a bit reluctant to max out on it against delver, especially when we're playing 7 1-mana removal spells post board.

Also, after a few games against miracles with the new cards, I have realized that it is now better not to cut most plows, since our increased lategame power means that they will now try to fight us with creatures like Staticaster, aggressive Mentors, and Sulfur Elemental more than ever post board. This is something Imperial players had mentioned before and that I never really understood playing mono white, but when you have access to the pressure engine of Recruiter and the safety of Prelate, it becomes much easier to justify that plow sitting in your hand, especially since you know that they've almost certainly taken out their CBs against your 3-4x caverns. For the same reason, I think that Council's Judgement is better then Cataclysm in the board (mirror and Eldrazi included).

*typing on iPhone so forgive me if there are errors

I guess I am very optimistic on Prelate. If DNT is ruining mana bases by default, a team of thalia 1.0 + prelate more or less disables your opponent from playing spells. My gut is saying run 4x in the 75 because Prelate is your one sided chalice of the void with legs. For 3 mana you get to arbitrarily pick what cc spells cannot be played by your opponent. IMO, this deck loses when spells are played. DNT can hold its own on the ground. The real problem has always been opposing players casting cantrips, comboing out with spells, sweeping your board, and stealing momentum with a well timed OP planeswalker. Suddenly we have the option to disable that. The other plus is that we're discussing Prelate in legacy, where X will likely be = 1 or 2 most of the time. There are perks of making X somewhere between 3 and 5. Fringe cases to call X at 6 or 7. You mentioned not liking her in the mirror or against maverick because she's not that strong but in my experience, the only way Maverick beats DNT is through having a better board state usually via active moms or with spells (swords, path, zealous, toxic). The real mirror has a lot of intricacies but I wouldn't discount the impact you have on making STP and CJ suddenly worthless for your opponent.

[Luca Grease]

*typing on iPhone so forgive me if there are errors

I guess I am very optimistic on Prelate. If DNT is ruining mana bases by default, a team of thalia 1.0 + prelate more or less disables your opponent from playing spells. My gut is saying run 4x in the 75 because Prelate is your one sided chalice of the void with legs. For 3 mana you get to arbitrarily pick what cc spells cannot be played by your opponent. IMO, this deck loses when spells are played. DNT can hold its own on the ground. The real problem has always been opposing players casting cantrips, comboing out with spells, sweeping your board, and stealing momentum with a well timed OP planeswalker. Suddenly we have the option to disable that. The other plus is that we're discussing Prelate in legacy, where X will likely be = 1 or 2 most of the time. There are perks of making X somewhere between 3 and 5. Fringe cases to call X at 6 or 7. You mentioned not liking her in the mirror or against maverick because she's not that strong but in my experience, the only way Maverick beats DNT is through having a better board state usually via active moms or with spells (swords, path, zealous, toxic). The real mirror has a lot of intricacies but I wouldn't discount the impact you have on making STP and CJ suddenly worthless for your opponent.

I'm not saying that there are no situations where Prelate would allow you to maneuver strategically in the mirror or against Maverick (I actually think its pretty decent against eldrazi post board at 2, since they have Jitte, Ratchet bomb, Warping Wail, and sometimes Spatial Distortion), but those cases are few and far between, and they often risk backfiring (you draw a plow immediately after). As it stands, I am still cutting Prelate against any deck playing Thalia. As you said, those matchups usually revolve around board states, and prelate does little once you're already behind on the board, whereas tutor will get you whatever creature card can get you out of a hairy situation (prelate included), if your deck has one. Prelate is certainly not comparable in value and flexibility to recruiter in any of those matchups.

In summary, my reservations about playing multiple prelates in the main is that we'd almost certainly need to cut down on tutors (or tutor targets) for it, since we cannot afford cutting down of 2-drops any further. The idea is that tutor is awesome against virtually every deck, whereas prelate is only awesome against about 75% of them, and can be tutored up anyway. It is quite possible that I am grossly underestimating the number of games a turn 3 prelate through cavern of souls will outright lock away, but I feel like, in most of those scenarios, we can afford to wait for 1 turn to recruit it up anyway. Alternatively, I guess Thalia 2.0 could be cut altogether in favor of a second maindeck Prelate. It is probably going to be stronger against most of the field, but I am reluctant to give up some percentage points against creature based decks, since I feel like our new tools have improved our spell-based MUs significantly enough already...

[Finn]

If people can find a way to make mid-range creature-heavy decks good enough to beat D+T in one or two colors, that would make Prelates bad in those matchups. I think that in a heavy D+T meta, Merfolk starts to look good, and Elves should continue to have a pretty good D+T matchup, even with the beating that THC gives them. Prelates are going to suck against Merfolk and be meh against Elves.

I would also be on the lookout for bastardizations, and of course the mirror. Prelate will suck against them as well. In a meta-dependent deck, I find Prelate to be a particularly meta-dependent card. I'm starting with two and a third in the board until I have a clear sense of what the meta is going to look like, even after I have a handle on how good she is.

I am on the fence between keeping a single Mangara and replacing him with a 2-drop. I feel strongly about the benefits of both. Mangara singularly owns the game in a wide variety of conditions. Opponents freak out when he becomes active. But I am unconvinced that the deck will remain fast enough with all the new 3-drops. What I really want is for one of the acceleration methods to be good enough to keep the single Mangara.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I think between the new Thalia, prelate, wasteland and port, the opportunity to tutor for the singleton Mangara in situations where the mana denial plan is strong/already online is too good to lose out on; not to mention post-board with Magus of the moon to stop their non-basics and snipe the basics.

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[Hencules]

I think between the new Thalia, prelate, wasteland and port, the opportunity to tutor for the singleton Mangara in situations where the mana denial plan is strong/already online is too good to lose out on; not to mention post-board with Magus of the moon to stop their non-basics and snipe the basics.

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I play a single Magus of the Moon in the slot where many people play a tutorable Mangara. I feel the pay off is so big, it's worth the times it'll stick in your hand (like batterskull). I feel the moment it hit's the board, it's immediately high impact.

[ESG]

If people can find a way to make mid-range creature-heavy decks good enough to beat D+T in one or two colors, that would make Prelates bad in those matchups. I think that in a heavy D+T meta, Merfolk starts to look good, and Elves should continue to have a pretty good D+T matchup, even with the beating that THC gives them. Prelates are going to suck against Merfolk and be meh against Elves.

I would also be on the lookout for bastardizations, and of course the mirror. Prelate will suck against them as well. In a meta-dependent deck, I find Prelate to be a particularly meta-dependent card. I'm starting with two and a third in the board until I have a clear sense of what the meta is going to look like, even after I have a handle on how good she is.

I agree with this analysis. Finn, how do you feel about the Eldrazi Taxes build competing in this future arena, or is that included under "bastardizations"? Do you foresee D&T being absorbed into such a deck in the future? Also, would you feel favored or unfavored in that matchup as the Death & Taxes player?

[hill_giant]

I think that in a heavy D+T meta, Merfolk starts to look good

???

[dorvaan]

???

I'm certainly FAR from being an expert. But, I would guess that running a deck that doesn't use too many non-creature spells that will almost always have creatures larger than ours seems decent.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I play a single Magus of the Moon in the slot where many people play a tutorable Mangara. I feel the pay off is so big, it's worth the times it'll stick in your hand (like batterskull). I feel the moment it hit's the board, it's immediately high impact.
I would not play in the main. I would not play it the first game...

Mangara is tutorable artifact/enchantment hate in game 1, and with the mirror going up in percentages, it's more important to be able to have an answer to batterskull/jitte than it is to have a better game 1 vs. bug and lands.

[iatee]

Recruiter just means you're playing with 7-8 copies of SfM, and Fish can't really beat equipment. I have played vs Merfolk a bunch with Imperial (where Magus, like Prelate, is a bad Grey Ogre g1) and it is a fantastic matchup. There is exactly one way they ever win, which is TNN into TNN + Lords. Anything but that exact start generally won't do it.

Prelates should be decent against Elves. Not insane, but they shut off Natural Order without shutting off Vials.

[RobNC]

In lists that aren't using the new Recruiter and Prelate, how are you feeling about THC? I have a big quarterly tournament on September 10th and won't be able to buy any of the Conspiracy singles before then. I did try out THC in a modern Abzan build last night and she was great on turn 2 and to a lesser extent turn 3 but pretty underwhelming otherwise, but that deck doesn't have the mana denial and tricks that D&T does, obviously. I'm thinking of running her in my flex spots:

4 Mother of Runes
4 SFM
4 Flickerwisp
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Revoker
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Serra Avenger
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar

I like the 2-2 split of Crusader and Avenger because my meta has a lot of Shardless BUG and BUG Lands and both of these have been great there. I also want to cut down to 3 Revoker but don't know what to replace it with. I previously had 1 each of Mangara and Eldrazi Displacer in the flex spots.

Top 8 at the last quarterly were apparently 2 Shardless, 3 Infect, Grixis Delver, ANT, and Show & Tell.

[geneyquakes]

4 Mother of Runes
4 SFM
4 Flickerwisp
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Revoker
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Serra Avenger
2 Thalia, Hertic Cathar


Thalia is very good. This is the exact 26 creatures i played before Conspiracy, and I reccomend it highly and would not change a card. I am currently trying a variety of recruiter builds because its a super powerful option and I want to see how it works out, but this 26 is consistent, powerful, and brawls better than any version with recruiter. With tight play and a good sideboard this has game in any open meta.

If you feel like Revoker will be subpar shaving one isnt unreasonable, all the usual flex spot choices are good options.

[Finn]

I agree with this analysis. Finn, how do you feel about the Eldrazi Taxes build competing in this future arena, or is that included under "bastardizations"? Do you foresee D&T being absorbed into such a deck in the future? Also, would you feel favored or unfavored in that matchup as the Death & Taxes player?

I have been saying versions of this since THC was spoiled. When you get too many good cards that all seem like they should fit in the same deck but don't, you will inevitably get variations. This is precisely the same phenomenon that has been going on with the blue shell for years in various forms. (There were three Landstill decks all at the same time for about a year c. 2007, there are still several decks using Tendrils of Agony, a few BUG versions, etc) It is possible that a more Eldrazi-centric version that trades in our control elements for beef will be the better deck down the road, but that is certainly not the case at the moment. D+T is going to be at the height of its power in the coming months. But the sheer number of cards that are good competing for space simply must spawn variations that should all be powerful. There may even be room for two or even several distinct versions. I am certain, however that classic D+T will not be subsumed into another deck.

[paradaxarada]

LANDS:

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Cavern of Souls
3 Karakas
9 Plains

CREATURES:

4 Mother of Runes
4 Flickerwisp
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Mirran Crusader
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Sanctum Prelate

SPELLS:

4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

SB: 2 Containment Priest
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Sanctum Prelate
SB: 1 Fiendslayer Paladin
SB: 2 Council's Judgment
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Banisher Priest
SB: 1 Stonecloaker
SB: 1 Leonin Relic-Warder
SB: 2 Pithing Needle

[colo]

I'm thinking about returning to mono-W for a while, with a list close to this one, with the following modifications (to the main board):

-1 Mirran Crusader, -1 Stoneforge Mystic, -1 Flickerwisp, -1 Batterskull, +1 Stonecloaker, +2 Recruiter of the Guard, +1 Mangara of Corondor

Also, I think you'll want to up Cavern of Souls count. I'll be running three, I guess.

[Farone]

played a local 20man tournament on sunday with this list. Had a 2-2-1 run with a draw vs Maverick. Win vs Reanimator, Loss vs Maverick, Loss vs Elves and a win against a lands brew deck.
Played a draft on saturday and pulled a Sanctum Prelate, so deceided to play it and try it out

9 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Karakas
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Mother of Runes
4 Flickerwisp
4 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Serra Avenger
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Sanctum Prelate
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice


SB:
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Containment Priest
2 Council's Judgment
2 Rest in Peace
1 Cataclysm
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Pithing Needle
2 Path to Exile
1 Wilt-leaf Liege


I feel like in the maverick aka SFM mirror the one with the first jitte on the table wins the game. Is it viable if in my meta there are multiple SFM decks to run a manriki-Gusari in the SB?
What else you advice to run, cut, board in, in the Maverick MU?

[infiniteJ]

It's going to be near impossible to find room to play, but eldrazi displacer straight wins the maverick matchup.


played a local 20man tournament on sunday with this list. Had a 2-2-1 run with a draw vs Maverick. Win vs Reanimator, Loss vs Maverick, Loss vs Elves and a win against a lands brew deck.
Played a draft on saturday and pulled a Sanctum Prelate, so deceided to play it and try it out

9 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Karakas
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Mother of Runes
4 Flickerwisp
4 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Serra Avenger
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Sanctum Prelate
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice


SB:
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Containment Priest
2 Council's Judgment
2 Rest in Peace
1 Cataclysm
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Pithing Needle
2 Path to Exile
1 Wilt-leaf Liege


I feel like in the maverick aka SFM mirror the one with the first jitte on the table wins the game. Is it viable if in my meta there are multiple SFM decks to run a manriki-Gusari in the SB?
What else you advice to run, cut, board in, in the Maverick MU?

[MasterBlaster]

@ Farone, if enemy equipment is a problem for sure throw a Manriki-Gusari in the sideboard.

[Finn]

Farone, if you cast Revoker naming Jitte, they can not shoot your Revoker with the Jitte "in response". Just saying.

[Sisyphos]

Farone, if you cast Revoker naming Jitte, they can not shoot your Revoker with the Jitte "in response". Just saying.

No they can't. It's an "As..." not a "When..." ability. As soon as Revoker has resolved and you name the card they have no ability to respond to it. They can only respond to the spell itself.

Edit: Bleh, my bad. Skimed through Finns post and did not register the not in there. So yeah, I agree with Finn....

[Curby]

they can not


No they can't

Are you ... agreeing? :confused:

[Colin]

I'm curious if other people are finding that Prelate is awesome and that recruiter is mostly a sideboard card in Mono W, and that Prelate is a 1 of and Recruiter of the Guard is a direct replacement for Imperial in RW?

I've been finding time and again that any time I draw recruiter in Mono W I'd rather have (almost) any action card in the deck instead and that unless vial is on-board it's not so great? Against miracles, threatening recruiter->wisp->wisp every turn has been awesome, but otherwise I'd rather have another lock piece almost always. Prelate reminds me so much of Thalia at this point, 50/50 that she ever gets to attack until equipped, but you want her on the board ALL the time. In the games where prelate is not so great, it's awesome to have such an easy side-out.

In Imperial being able to threaten Prelate locking off removal then Magus to effectively end games and again, endless flickerwisps is just amazing, but I'm having trouble finding space for more than 1 prelate in the main.

[Luca Grease]

I'm honestly flabbergasted by the amount of people dissing recruiter ITT. At the risk of sounding arrogant, I can't help but seriously question the judgement of anyone who considers it a marginal addition at best. ANYONE who has played this deck competitively for a while knows that one of its greatest weaknesses was the lack of card selection/search in the mid/late game, which led to very frustrating losses ALL THE TIME, and was, most likely, the reason so few pros have taken up the deck consistently until now. Recruiter brilliantly shores up that weakness while providing card advantage and being a human on top of it. Seriously, there should be no need to explain why an uncounterable Demonic Tutor on legs (most likely fetching an uncounterable silver bullet) is pure gold.

Also, playing this in the side is madness. It is the definition of a maindeck card.

[iatee]

I think it's going to take people time to adjust to playing Mono-W as a slower deck.

Imperial and Mono-W play fairly differently and Mono-W with 4 Recruiters is going to play a lot closer to Imperial, even if you're not including a Magus in your 75 (which I think is a mistake.) So I think the deck needs to be designed that way - it needs to have a huge toolbox especially post-board to deal with any situation, it needs to have powerful late game plays - though as far as that goes, I still don't know if there's ever going to be a late game bomb comparable to Pia/Kiran outside of red.

[RobNC]

What's the ideal split with the new cards? 3 recruiter and 1 prelate?

[Colin]

I'm honestly flabbergasted by the amount of people dissing recruiter ITT. At the risk of sounding arrogant, I can't help but seriously question the judgement of anyone who considers it a marginal addition at best. ANYONE who has played this deck competitively for a while knows that one of its greatest weaknesses was the lack of card selection/search in the mid/late game, which led to very frustrating losses ALL THE TIME, and was, most likely, the reason so few pros have taken up the deck consistently until now. Recruiter brilliantly shores up that weakness while providing card advantage and being a human on top of it. Seriously, there should be no need to explain why an uncounterable Demonic Tutor on legs (most likely fetching an uncounterable silver bullet) is pure gold.

Also, playing this in the side is madness. It is the definition of a maindeck card.

I'm not spewing gospel here, I'm asking?

I've only got about 30 pre-board games and 40 post board games in with a mono white version and in this I've only played maybe 10 games at most before switching up the 60. The thing that has made me happiest so far is running 3 SFM + 1 recruiter with 1 or 2 recruiters replacing 1 or 2 gideons in the board

Regarding the bold text: I cant agree less. This is not a definitively mainboard card. It is the divergence of the Deck. Like a choose your own adventure. If you maindeck primarily recruiter you are now playing a deck that is fundamentally different from the play of non-recruiter.


I think it's going to take people time to adjust to playing Mono-W as a slower deck.

Imperial and Mono-W play fairly differently and Mono-W with 4 Recruiters is going to play a lot closer to Imperial, even if you're not including a Magus in your 75 (which I think is a mistake.) So I think the deck needs to be designed that way - it needs to have a huge toolbox especially post-board to deal with any situation, it needs to have powerful late game plays - though as far as that goes, I still don't know if there's ever going to be a late game bomb comparable to Pia/Kiran outside of red.

Do you truly think that Mono white will be better as a slow deck?

That's closer to the heart of my questions.

I've been running mono white for ~4 years now and I don't think the deck needs a toolbox main to be "more successful". I'm thinking that it's a different deck with a equal opportunity for success based on metagame shift.

I agree with you on the magus for sure. the autowin is too strong to ignore.

I've only had ~200 games since I've picked up Imperial, but my playtesting group has learned to despise P+K more than anything.

I've found that it's really the sideboard red cards that make the toolbox viable for me. Sudden demise, cunning sparkmage, P+K (main and side) I'm often underwhelmed with imperial recruiter game 1, other than the mid-game card selection/advantage.

Edit after re-reading iatee: No bomb! that's what I've been experiencing. Mono white was always about layering + a bomb or 2 (brimaz, serra, mirran) and I've found that the turn of delay in getting online with the actual threats is crucial. With layered hatebears I almost always find that the opponent is having to decide between hate and threats for removal, when you're recruitering you often need a turn to play recruiter, get hate or threat, then a turn to deploy. Also threat/hate density goes down. So suddenly your light on threat, lighter on hate and opponents removal gets much better because they don't care is recruiter sits and spins.


I'm also looking for more input on Prelate? I've had so many wins with prelate on 1 that ended with my opponent's hand full of uncastable cards. I'm wondering what others are seeing

I'm not trying to define the value of the cards, I'm asking for community experience to supplement my own. I don't want to formulate an opinion based in personal experience only

[iatee]

I think Prelate is nuts, and the best argument against playing as many Recruiters is possible is 'Shouldn't we be playing as many Prelates as possible?'

I think a slower Mono-W DnT is viable and ultimately better than Avengertempo.dec, but the right decklist has to be found, and there might be some fairly big changes before it works consistently. Speed is nice, but consistency is ultimately what makes decks T1. It is true that a lot of the most powerful tutor targets in Imperial were red, and a lot of the most relevant tutor targets are in fact SB cards. I think finding a late game that's more threatening than just 'hook up Batterskull to a creature' is gonna be pretty important. Maybe it's just chaining Flickerwisps...maybe they'll print a white Pia/Kiran in the next set...

FWIW for Mono-W decks with a bunch of Recruiters and Prelates but no Magus in the 75 - Eldrazi's gonna turn into a pretty terrible matchup. Imperial always has the 'I win' button to make up for playing a bunch of 1/1s and 2/2s for 3, but Prelate's a pretty terrible replacement for Magus here. OTOH, if you don't consistently wreck Miracles with this deck + a bunch of Caverns, you're doing something wrong.

Anyway people should just experiment and play anything and everything for now. Nobody really knows what's good.

[zebhillard]

Anyway people should just experiment and play anything and everything for now. Nobody really knows what's good.

I'm either giving Recruiter Taxes or Punishing Jund a run at our weekly Legacy tomorrow night.
-
Right now my Recruiter-based 75 is...

23 Land
10 Spells (4 Swords/4 Vial/2 Equipment [No Batterskull in the main)


4: Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3: Recruiter, Flickerwisp, Mom, Revoker, SFM
2: Thalia, Displacer
1: Mangara, Canonist, Sanctum Prelate, Intrepid Hero

SB:
2: Containment Priest, Rest in Peace
1: Canonist, Relic-Warder, Veteran Armorer, Hokori, Council's Judgment, Holy Light, Sanctum Prelate, Graf Cage, Batterskull, Manriki-Gusari, Eight and a half tails

[colo]

I played a half-asses attempt at an Imperial->of the Guard port of my most recent decklist yesterday, and won 3-0 versus mono-B jank, Punishing Fire Rock, and Lodestone Staxx. The value that eot Recruiter from Vial into Stonecloaker, then going on to casting Stonecloaker to exile a Punishing Fire and bouncing Recruiter, and then hitting for 3 the next turn is positively bonkers.

I love the new cards. 8)

[Luca Grease]

Sure, the 4 recruiter version will give up some tempo wins due to a slower midgame, but those were few and far between compared to the huge amount of (very frustrating) losses the deck would rack up because of its inconsistency, or drawing your multiple Serra Avengers against, say, Omni-Tell, or your 4 Revokers against UR prowess. Intuitively, and in the games I've played so far, the 4-recruiter version is just much more consistent and overall powerful, giving us easily accessible, backbreaking plays against tons of decks against which we would otherwise struggle and pray for the right topdeck. Of course, it's not just a matter of slapping 4 recruiters in and calling it a day, the whole decklist needs to be redisigned, keeping (imo) the cornerstone 4-ofs of Mother of Runes, Thalia, and Mystic to retain our core early game elements and setting up the stage for a much more flexible and powerful late game toolbox/engine.

As for prelate, I can add my voice to the choir of praise: despite my initial skepticism, the card is too good to play only 1 in the maindeck, tutors or not. While it is so good that it would not be blasphemy to cut a tutor for it, chances are we should rather cut a Flickerwisp (especially since we should be running 4 Cavern of Souls) or some other non essential 3-drop for it. In the initial analysis when the card was spoiled, I remember multiple people labeling this card as "bad" against infect. Well, I disagree. It might not shut off 80% of their deck like in other matchups, but jam it on 3 and it'll often win you the game. Bonus points for blanking their Krosan Grips post-board.

Pia and Kiran: I never played Imperial Taxes, but what did this card really shine against besides Miracles? It looks very sketchy against anything having access to Wasteland, considering the deck only played 1 Plateau (or should have). It seems to me that in most matchups, either Prelate is just as good (and less clunky), or there's something backbreaking we can search up from the board anyway.

Here's my current list for reference and criticism:

3 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
8 Plains
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Flickerwisp
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Banisher Priest
1 Batterskull
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Mirran Crusader
2 Sanctum Prelate
4 Recruiter of the Guard
SB: 3 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 3 Path to Exile
SB: 1 Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 Leonin Relic-Warder
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 Magus of the Moon
SB: 1 Sanctum Prelate
SB: 1 Orzhov Pontiff


A few thoughts:

- As partial as I am to the card, I think that Mangara's time is done. Everytime I searched for it, I felt like some other card might have done the job just as well and much quicker. If you want to remove a creature, just search up Banisher Priest. If you want to cockblock Miracles or Shardless, just search up Prelate instead. If you want to grind someone out, start chaining Flickerwisps. If an Ensnaring Bridge or Glacial Chasm is preventing you to attack for lethal, flicker it at their eot. And so on and so forth... Post board, it gets even worse when you could just search up Magus and instantly nuke their whole manabase. Also, Mangara will clog up your vial on 3 forever, forcing you to choose between continuing to apply the lock or deploying other powerful pieces. Other creatures will just get vialed in and free the lane.

- Since Magus seems entirely doable with this manabase so far, I've taken up iatee's suggestion of Orzhov Pontiff, which should prove an absolute beast in the mirror and against Maverick, Infect, Elves, and anything running TNN. Props to you for mentioning it, I wonder if we're missing anything else like that...

- The 3rd Revoker in the SB was mostly an auto-pilot decision as I shaved 2 off the maindeck. It should probably be another tutor target, but I suppose there are worse ways to use up a SB slot until I figure out which.

- This list sucks it to Humility big time, but I think that's an acceptable risk at least until the metagame adjusts. I suppose you could always try to fight it by casting Prelate on 4 (which is not the most unreasonable thing against U/W control decks) if you're super scared. For the most part, the threat of Thalia/Wasteland and Rishadan Port, in combination with the even slower finishing potential of Humility/Elspeth Miracle lists should keep us safe, or so I hope.

EDIT: Stonecloacker: I like this card and I wanted to give it another go when recruiter was spoiled, but Prelate quickly put that nonsense to rest. It is, for the most part, too slow against Dredge, Reanimator, and other super fast combo decks, so it only really shines against Punishing Fire, Loam, and Perhaps Snapcaster Mage. Prelate just mops all of that up. Post board, we have access to Faerie Macabre and RiP, so yea... Not needed.

[Warden]

I'm surprised people aren't running Gideon in the board. Just picked him up and feel he's so strong against Miracles. He also breaks parity against mirror and peudo mirror matchups. Prelate is nice, but I would hesitate cutting Gideon entirely.

@Recruiter lists: I would run Magus of the Moon main (1 main, 1 in side) because you can literally win on the spot with it. Potential turn 4 wins/complete mana lockdowns are too much upside.

[walked]

Sure, the 4 recruiter version will give up some tempo wins due to a slower midgame, but those were few and far between compared to the huge amount of (very frustrating) losses the deck would rack up because of its inconsistency, or drawing your multiple Serra Avengers against, say, Omni-Tell, or your 4 Revokers against UR prowess. Intuitively, and in the games I've played so far, the 4-recruiter version is just much more consistent and overall powerful, giving us easily accessible, backbreaking plays against tons of decks against which we would otherwise struggle and pray for the right topdeck. Of course, it's not just a matter of slapping 4 recruiters in and calling it a day, the whole decklist needs to be redisigned, keeping (imo) the cornerstone 4-ofs of Mother of Runes, Thalia, and Mystic to retain our core early game elements and setting up the stage for a much more flexible and powerful late game toolbox/engine.

As for prelate, I can add my voice to the choir of praise: despite my initial skepticism, the card is too good to play only 1 in the maindeck, tutors or not. While it is so good that it would not be blasphemy to cut a tutor for it, chances are we should rather cut a Flickerwisp (especially since we should be running 4 Cavern of Souls) or some other non essential 3-drop for it. In the initial analysis when the card was spoiled, I remember multiple people labeling this card as "bad" against infect. Well, I disagree. It might not shut off 80% of their deck like in other matchups, but jam it on 3 and it'll often win you the game. Bonus points for blanking their Krosan Grips post-board.

Pia and Kiran: I never played Imperial Taxes, but what did this card really shine against besides Miracles? It looks very sketchy against anything having access to Wasteland, considering the deck only played 1 Plateau (or should have). It seems to me that in most matchups, either Prelate is just as good (and less clunky), or there's something backbreaking we can search up from the board anyway.

Here's my current list for reference and criticism:

3 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
8 Plains
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Flickerwisp
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Banisher Priest
1 Batterskull
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Mirran Crusader
2 Sanctum Prelate
4 Recruiter of the Guard
SB: 3 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 3 Path to Exile
SB: 1 Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 Leonin Relic-Warder
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 Magus of the Moon
SB: 1 Sanctum Prelate
SB: 1 Orzhov Pontiff


A few thoughts:

- As partial as I am to the card, I think that Mangara's time is done. Everytime I searched for it, I felt like some other card might have done the job just as well and much quicker. If you want to remove a creature, just search up Banisher Priest. If you want to cockblock Miracles or Shardless, just search up Prelate instead. If you want to grind someone out, start chaining Flickerwisps. If an Ensnaring Bridge or Glacial Chasm is preventing you to attack for lethal, flicker it at their eot. And so on and so forth... Post board, it gets even worse when you could just search up Magus and instantly nuke their whole manabase. Also, Mangara will clog up your vial on 3 forever, forcing you to choose between continuing to apply the lock or deploying other powerful pieces. Other creatures will just get vialed in and free the lane.

- Since Magus seems entirely doable with this manabase so far, I've taken up iatee's suggestion of Orzhov Pontiff, which should prove an absolute beast in the mirror and against Maverick, Infect, Elves, and anything running TNN. Props to you for mentioning it, I wonder if we're missing anything else like that...

- The 3rd Revoker in the SB was mostly an auto-pilot decision as I shaved 2 off the maindeck. It should probably be another tutor target, but I suppose there are worse ways to use up a SB slot until I figure out which.

- This list sucks it to Humility big time, but I think that's an acceptable risk at least until the metagame adjusts. I suppose you could always try to fight it by casting Prelate on 4 (which is not the most unreasonable thing against U/W control decks) if you're super scared. For the most part, the threat of Thalia/Wasteland and Rishadan Port, in combination with the even slower finishing potential of Humility/Elspeth Miracle lists should keep us safe, or so I hope.

EDIT: Stonecloacker: I like this card and I wanted to give it another go when recruiter was spoiled, but Prelate quickly put that nonsense to rest. It is, for the most part, too slow against Dredge, Reanimator, and other super fast combo decks, so it only really shines against Punishing Fire, Loam, and Perhaps Snapcaster Mage. Prelate just mops all of that up. Post board, we have access to Faerie Macabre and RiP, so yea... Not needed.

So I'm very much on the same plane of thought as you. One item I'm debating is trying to find a spot for a Leonin Relic-Warder mainboard, given the toolbox nature and having spent a couple of days getting shut down by Chalice before I could get my vial out. Not sure what I'd pull out, but I'm really digging the Recruiter and Prelate in testing.

[Luca Grease]

So I'm very much on the same plane of thought as you. One item I'm debating is trying to find a spot for a Leonin Relic-Warder mainboard, given the toolbox nature and having spent a couple of days getting shut down by Chalice before I could get my vial out. Not sure what I'd pull out, but I'm really digging the Recruiter and Prelate in testing.

If chalices stranding vials in your hand are your problem, I don't think Leonin is the solution. You tutor for it on turn 3 and cast it on turn 4, by then vial has lost a lot of its value, not to mention you can just tutor Flickerwisp to blank the chalice instead. Honestly, chalice is not a card I'm particularly worried about, as it is very hit-or-miss against us on the play and absolutely horrible on the draw. A lot of players actually side it out when playing against DnT, and rightly so.

That being said, Leonin in the main is actually a pretty defensible choice. I guess it would have to take the place of a Revoker (using my list for reference), which I think it's a more flexible maindeck card overall. But if you are looking to increase the toolbox element at the expense of some redundancy (there are multiple MUs where revoker has 2+ valuable targets), I can envision opting for a 1/1 split. The only thing that worries me about leonin is that it costs WW without being a human. Perhaps you should start naming Cleric with your caverns...

[walked]

If chalices stranding vials in your hand are your problem, I don't think Leonin is the solution. You tutor for it on turn 3 and cast it on turn 4, by then vial has lost a lot of its value, not to mention you can just tutor Flickerwisp to blank the chalice instead. Honestly, chalice is not a card I'm particularly worried about, as it is very hit-or-miss against us on the play and absolutely horrible on the draw. A lot of players actually side it out when playing against DnT, and rightly so.

That being said, Leonin in the main is actually a pretty defensible choice. I guess it would have to take the place of a Revoker (using my list for reference), which I think it's a more flexible maindeck card overall. But if you are looking to increase the toolbox element at the expense of some redundancy (there are multiple MUs where revoker has 2+ valuable targets), I can envision opting for a 1/1 split. The only thing that worries me about leonin is that it costs WW without being a human. Perhaps you should start naming Cleric with your caverns...


That's similar to where I was leaning to slot it in; the Revoker is valuable, but in games that I can get two out and active, I'm already doing well enough that it's probably not what's going to swing the game. Leaving me with redundancy as the driving reason to have two (again, generalizing).

I'm sure its just recent memory; but I've had two matches this past week where a chalice T1 cost me the match (they took G1 on the play; G2 I got; and G3 they threw Chalice again, on the play). You're probably right that's not worthy of considerable concern, but it's certainly fresh in my memory.

I think given the toolbox appraoch though, I'm definitely of the mind that the Relic-Warder has a spot. There's a ton of non-activated permanents that cause considerable pain.

And on the cavern's front - if we're running 4x, if it's really necessary to choose a different creature type for the Relic-Warder, it's not a huge sting.

[iatee]

Chalice is annoying both because it makes your keeps harder and because it shuts of STP. But it's also high variance vs us - against many of our slower fair SfM keeps, an opponent drawing into a bunch of Chalices is a good way for them to lose, and it loses a lot of power after t1 (unlike vs. blue decks.)

I agree that Relic Warder in the main is pretty viable. It's been among the most important tutor targets for me over time in Imperial. Issues with Cavern have come up over time, but I think it's just the price you pay and should be less of an issue now that Recruiters can be cast without a red source.

[colo]

Yes, I can only recommend one-pf Relic-Warders if your meta features nasties like Sylvan Library, Lodestone Golem, or opposing equipment. It's no Qasali Pridemage, but it's the next best thing.

[iatee]

It's pretty busted in the mirror.

[tarmogoat]

After some testing this is where I'm at:

4x Æther Vial
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Mother of Runes

4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Spirit of the Labyrinth
1x Umezawa's Jitte

3x Recruiter of the Guard
1x Thalia, Heretic Cathar
3x Flickerwisp
2x Sanctum Prelate
1x Mirran Crusader
1x Brimaz, King of Oreskos
1x Sword of Fire and Ice

1x Batterskull

4x Wasteland
4x Rishadan Port
3x Karakas
4x Cavern of Souls
1x Horizon Canopy
7x Plains

2x Path to Exile
2x Containment Priest
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Rest in Peace
1x Manriki-Gusari
1x Magus of the Moon
1x Banisher Priest
1x Sanctum Prelate
1x Council's Judgment
1x Cataclysm
1x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar

I want to find room to add 1 Orzhov Pontiff as Luca posts, but I currently don't own one anyway. I was also thinking about Goblin Sharpshooter, it's not the same, but it's activated, repeatable and can be vialed in or cast through Cavern. Although you have to reset the cavern with a Flickerwisp afterwards, which is not the best, but can be game ending against Elves and mirror/maverick and it also doesn't suck against Mentor. Maybe sharpshooter needs fetches and Plateau.
I am also wondering if we should insta-add 1 Veteran Armorer to our SB, as the hate will come in the form of Dread of Night most likely (and to break the Pontiff play in the mirror).

[Finn]

Got my first testing done today.

Flickerwisp and Recruiter in the same deck is savage.

Prelate and Recruiter in the same deck flatly requires Banisher Priest.

[mrjumbo03]

Got my first testing done today.

Flickerwisp and Recruiter in the same deck is savage.

Prelate and Recruiter in the same deck flatly requires Banisher Priest.

Can you clarify the bolded part? Does this mean a lack of beef in the deck, hence requiring additional removal MD?

[walked]

Chalice is annoying both because it makes your keeps harder and because it shuts of STP. But it's also high variance vs us - against many of our slower fair SfM keeps, an opponent drawing into a bunch of Chalices is a good way for them to lose, and it loses a lot of power after t1 (unlike vs. blue decks.)

I agree that Relic Warder in the main is pretty viable. It's been among the most important tutor targets for me over time in Imperial. Issues with Cavern have come up over time, but I think it's just the price you pay and should be less of an issue now that Recruiters can be cast without a red source.
So the relic-warder mb has tested very well this evening. I think that's the list I'm going to run for this tournament coming up in two weekends time

[colo]

I was also thinking about Goblin Sharpshooter, it's not the same, but it's activated, repeatable and can be vialed in or cast through Cavern.

I ran one in the SB of Imperial to deal with Elves!, and it turned out to be too slow. They consistently blew me apart the turn after it hit the field - if Sharpshooter doesn't have haste, it's not going to be good enough I'm afraid. Cunning Sparkmage is the better alternative, although it looks much weaker on paper. It also scores bonus points for having the correct creature type in mono-W.

[Warden]

Peacekeeper could theoretically help you against Elves and Sneak but even then it's a Hail Mary play that allows them to still find a slow method to win.

I still believe 1 Canonist could be main deck. That's the proactive answer I'd go for. Creatures that ping or give -1/-1 come out too late. Elves also have a decent chunk of x/2s.

[colo]

The obvious MD-able answer to Elves! in a tutor-heavy build with Cavern of Souls is Orzhov Pontiff. You won't find a better solution than this one.

[Finn]

The obvious MD-able answer to Elves! is Thalia, Heretic Cathar. You won't find a better solution than this one.
fixed

If you get to three mana, you want this card instead of a narrow solution. The Elves deck I test against is not quite the standard build, but I have won maybe four games with THC otb and lost exactly one. Elves must remove her unless they get lots and lots of elves or they are running Progenitus. If you get her out with Mother of Runes, you are heavily advantaged because even Abrupt Decay won't save them.


Can you clarify the bolded part? Does this mean a lack of beef in the deck, hence requiring additional removal MD? Oh, no, no. I suppose this is the sort of thing that testing is for. I tested against Miracles and found myself calling "one" instead of "six". That essentially turned off StP and Terminus at the same time (because I had either dealt with Top in some way or he did not have one yet) and Brainstorm too. But then I had a hard time dealing with his two Mentors because I was myself holding StP.

Something similar happened against Grixis, except I actually lost to Abrupt Decay the one time it happened. So, you need the Banisher Priest as an option to fetch. I have been looking for 2-mana solutions such as Soul Tithe in the vein that iatee focuses on with his Paths to Exile in the board. But I do not like anything so far.

[dorvaan]

fixed



I tested against Miracles and found myself calling "one" instead of "six". That essentially turned off StP and Terminus at the same time (because I had either dealt with Top in some way or he did not have one yet) and Brainstorm too.

So, do you mean that because he didn't have Top, Terminus was essentially turned off? Because, even cast for Miracle, Terminus is a 6 CMC. Just trying to clarify.

[Luca Grease]

fixed


Oh, no, no. I suppose this is the sort of thing that testing is for. I tested against Miracles and found myself calling "one" instead of "six". That essentially turned off StP and Terminus at the same time (because I had either dealt with Top in some way or he did not have one yet) and Brainstorm too. But then I had a hard time dealing with his two Mentors because I was myself holding StP.



My experience has been that Mentor doesn't really do much of anything as long as there's a prelate on 1 on the battlefield. In fact, even though my initial expectation was that we'd use Prelate mostly as a terminus stopper, the more I test, the more I realize that jamming it on 1 is probably going to be the best play in most board states.

[Medea_]

To second Finn, Banisher Priest is really great as a tutorable target, and THC is the nuts against Elves. I've been on both sides of that matchup, and THC was the game-breaker in every case. I lost to D&T and white Eldrazi while playing Elves at Gen Con solely due to the power of THC, and I also beat Elves there while playing D&T.

Regarding Santum Prelate in the Miracles matchup: You'll want to name what you most care about at a given moment. In the early stages of the game, naming one will likely do a considerable amount of damage to your opponent's ability to develop and create a board presence. In the later game, you may just need to shut off Terminus as an out if you are ~1 turn away from a lethal swing. Keep in mind that naming 1 also really decreases the value of Snapcaster Mage.

I'm working on getting some of my thoughts together, and I'll be writing up a sizable article on Monday or Tuesday. I'm playing something interesting in Baltimore.

[Poron]

as a Miracle player: welcome back Izzet Staticaster and Pyroclasm

[Finn]

So, do you mean that because he didn't have Top, Terminus was essentially turned off? Because, even cast for Miracle, Terminus is a 6 CMC. Just trying to clarify.

Yes. I am saying that. I really want Prelate on one. If I have it on another number I find myself wanting to reset it.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Yes. I am saying that. I really want Prelate on one. If I have it on another number I find myself wanting to reset it.
I have just one problem with Prelate on 1. StP costs 1, and they can still cast creatures. This seems like nonbo city. Any suggestions for how to "play around" this unfortunate situation?

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[mykatdied]

I have just one problem with Prelate on 1. StP costs 1, and they can still cast creatures. This seems like nonbo city. Any suggestions for how to "play around" this unfortunate situation?

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If it is shutting down our ~4 Swords to Plowshares and Vials should we not already have cast them, but it is shutting down bolts, swords, brainstorms, ponders, tops, etc, etc, etc from our opponent we are likely still favored there. One way to mitigate shutting down our own swords is through creatures like banisher priest or fiend hunter as some additional removal as well as using Flickerwisps at the right moments to act as temporary removal.

[RobNC]

I played against miracles tonight with three recruiters and two prelates. Prelate on 1 was always better than 6. If I set her on 6 she'd eat a swords and then I'd get hit with Terminus afterwards.

I'll write a better report tomorrow about my matchups, but I must say I was in love with both new cards, especially recruiter.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

If it is shutting down our ~4 Swords to Plowshares and Vials should we not already have cast them, but it is shutting down bolts, swords, brainstorms, ponders, tops, etc, etc, etc from our opponent we are likely still favored there. One way to mitigate shutting down our own swords is through creatures like banisher priest or fiend hunter as some additional removal as well as using Flickerwisps at the right moments to act as temporary removal.
While I do not entirely agree, I guess it's not like you can't just hold the Swords to Plowshares until they deal with the Prelate or lose, or you block with it. Dropping one for a banisher priest a terrible idea? I'm out of room otherwise...

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[Barook]

I'm still busy with moving to my new apartment, but even without testing, I'm not suprised that Prelate @1 would be better in most cases vs Miracles than just blocking Terminus. They have way more 1 CC spells, including several ones that set up Terminus. Recruiter into Flickerwisp should also weaken Terminus as a whole, too. Besides, wouldn't an active Prelate hinder Mentor alot in terms of token production? No StPs, no cantrips, no double Top shenanigans.

As for builds running 4 Caverns: Isn't the white mana for SFM and StP more problematic now? That's my main concern with running that many Caverns.

[Finn]

I'm still busy with moving to my new apartment, but even without testing, I'm not suprised that Prelate @1 would be better in most cases vs Miracles than just blocking Terminus. They have way more 1 CC spells, including several ones that set up Terminus. Recruiter into Flickerwisp should also weaken Terminus as a whole, too. Besides, wouldn't an active Prelate hinder Mentor alot in terms of token production? No StPs, no cantrips, no double Top shenanigans.I find that I have a variety of tools to limit the power of Terminus now. The Miracles matchup has definitely swung considerably in our favor.


As for builds running 4 Caverns: Isn't the white mana for SFM and StP more problematic now? That's my main concern with running that many Caverns. I had four Caverns for about a day. Could not hardcast a Flickerwisp for shit. I'm at two now, and likely to stay there.

At some point soon, we really need to gather ideas for sb options designed to counter hate and for the mirror. I have Veteran Armorer and Leonin Relic-Warder, but I am certain that is not enough. In fact, Armorer dies to Pyroclasm and Massacre. As soon as he does, everything does as well. I'm not sure the card does anything at all except against Golgari Charm and Dread of Night. And I guarantee our opponents will know this.

Unfortunately, anything with a bigger butt is unfetchable. We need something with counters or X or something or else we are back to Honor of the Pure.

[Barook]

At some point soon, we really need to gather ideas for sb options designed to counter hate and for the mirror. I have Veteran Armorer and Leonin Relic-Warder, but I am certain that is not enough.
"Hate" is a pretty broad term. First we need to determine what kind of cards might show up to really hurt us now, then find appropriate counters.

[mykatdied]

I find that I have a variety of tools to limit the power of Terminus now. The Miracles matchup has definitely swung considerably in our favor.

I had four Caverns for about a day. Could not hardcast a Flickerwisp for shit. I'm at two now, and likely to stay there.

At some point soon, we really need to gather ideas for sb options designed to counter hate and for the mirror. I have Veteran Armorer and Leonin Relic-Warder, but I am certain that is not enough. In fact, Armorer dies to Pyroclasm and Massacre. As soon as he does, everything does as well. I'm not sure the card does anything at all except against Golgari Charm and Dread of Night. And I guarantee our opponents will know this.

Unfortunately, anything with a bigger butt is unfetchable. We need something with counters or X or something or else we are back to Honor of the Pure.

Thalia's Lieutenant? Not the greatest, but we could flicker it a couple times for the rest of the team, then if we continue to play dudes, he gets bigger.

[RobNC]

I played a 3 round FNM last night and this is what I was running:

9 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Cavern of Souls
3 Karakas

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Flickerwisp
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Sanctum Prelate
2 Mirran Crusader
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar

Round 1 - Miracles with Mentor and Snapcaster Mage
This is where I found Prelate on 6 was useless. He hit it with Swords and then went nuts with double Top and Mentor. 4/4 Monks are hard to deal with. However, the monks were the only time THC was any good as it didn't produce chump blockers as well as normal.
In the sideboarded game he brought in two SFM, Batterskull, and Jitte. I Revokered his SFM without drawing my own, thankfully, and applied some pressure with SOFI equipped creatures until he Terminused, then dropped Jace. Jace bounced one creature, then I dropped Recruiter which he did not bounce. More pressure applied and a bunch of Jitte counters on my side kept his Monks in check until he was forced to chump with Mentor, and I won the next turn. SOFI was MVP in this matchup. Prelate is good on 1 but make sure you can protect her. Recruiter and drawing off SOFI also helped me sandbag creatures in my hand that I could cast after a Terminus, which kept the pressure going

Round 2 - BUG Loam - Dark Depths combo with Jace and Liliana for alternate wincon
Game 1 I applied tons of pressure and got him down to 4, but I got greedy and fetched Mirran Crusader with a Recruiter instead of Flickerwisp when I had a vial on 3. Died to Marit Lage next turn. Pretty sure I had a Prelate on 2 in this game to shut off Life from the Loam and Abrupt Decay, which is why I lasted so long, but he still was able to use Crop Rotation to set up the lands combo.
Game 2 I kept a 1 lander and was punished for it. Turn 1 Vial was Abrupt Decayed, and the only other land that I would have seen over the next 8-10 turns was fatesealed to the bottom with Jace. Bad luck is really all it was, although I typically have a hard time post-board with him anyways because he brings in Golgari Charm, Toxic Deluge, and Darkblast that he can dredge back again and again.

Round 3 - Mono Red Sneak Attack
Game 1 he wins the die roll, drops Chalice on 1. My turn 1 I drop Cavern on Humans into Mom. Turn 2 he drops Sneak Attack. Turn 2 I drop Revoker on Sneak attack, and just apply pressure from there while he can't really do anything.
Game 2 he gets a slow start, I once again Revoker on Sneak attack. Turn 3 he drops Lotus Petal, I top deck a Revoker and get his Petal too. The only threat he managed to drop was Batterskull, but I sent the germ to plowshares immediately. I drop Prelate on 5 to stop Through the Breach (which he ended up having in his hand - yes!) then beat down with tiny white creatures and equipment.



I will say I'm convinced Recruiter is absolutely amazing, and I actually didn't find myself missing Serra Avenger at all. I'm still not sure what I want for the "toolbox" suite of creatures. Mirran Crusader is amazing most of the time, Prelate was great when she stuck, and I actually didn't find myself wanting THC very often at all. I did dodge Delver and Eldrazi matchups, I think she'd be much better in those.

3 Caverns was absolutely fine, and even if I did drawl multiples I always have the option of naming Kor or Elemental in a pinch. As a result of this I dropped to 3 Flickerwisps, as it becomes the hardest creature to hardcast but I also have effectively 6 of them with Recruiter. I was happy with that choice. I don't think I'd want 4 Caverns, though.

I have a tournament next weekend and all I'm contemplating now is do I want 4 Recruiters or do I want to sub the second Crusader for another toolbox creature?

Sideboard is also a work in progress; the only sideboard card I ever drew last night was Pithing Needle so I don't know what's really going to be good.

[Luca Grease]

Thalia's Lieutenant? Not the greatest, but we could flicker it a couple times for the rest of the team, then if we continue to play dudes, he gets bigger.

Pretty sure that if a crusade critter is gonna end up being playable, it's this one. But I doubt it.

[mykatdied]

Pretty sure that if a crusade critter is gonna end up being playable, it's this one. But I doubt it.

Yeah as far as effects like Pyroclasm, kozilek's return and massacre are concerned it is likely the best option to be able to get your creatures over 2 toughness. At the very least it can build up to a large creature with further humans played

[Luca Grease]

Yeah as far as effects like Pyroclasm, kozilek's return and massacre are concerned it is likely the best option to be able to get your creatures over 2 toughness. At the very least it can build up to a large creature with further humans played

the main pro is that the counters stay even when it dies, which has always been the problem with Lords in DnT. On the other hand, only pumping humans already on the battlefield when it comes into play means this is still not gonna do its job reliably. Imo, Crusade effects are not, and have never been, a truly effective way of fighting hate. Incidentally, Prelate (and, to a lesser extent, the new Thalia) have provided us with a much more functional solution, by 1) allowing us to up our X/2 count and 2) preventing -1-1 effects from being cast.

[commonenemy]

Also Thalias Lieutenant is good way to play around punishing fire if need be. But it might be too narrow for the meta right now, might have to wait to see if pyro or return gets played more in miracles.

[RobNC]

Any black deck can likely play Dread of Night safely without affecting their creatures (I know I have one in my Grixis Delver sideboard), but what decks can afford to play Massacre? Storm and Reanimator? I haven't seen it in anything else before.

The extra 2 power creatures (Prelate, THC) will survive Dread of Night and Golgari Charm, but not Massacre.

[Finn]

Also Thalias Lieutenant is good way to play around punishing fire if need be. But it might be too narrow for the meta right now, might have to wait to see if pyro or return gets played more in miracles.The purpose of this discussion is to get out in front if the hate which is certainly coming.


The extra 2 power creatures (Prelate, THC) will survive Dread of Night and Golgari Charm, but not Massacre. Opponents are going to recognize the increased number of 2-toughness creatures and adapt. Massacre and Pyroclasm are coming.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Perhaps, but don't you think Kozilek's Return will be Miracles' answer to it rather than 'clasm? Or even Devastation Tide?

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[btm10]

Perhaps, but don't you think Kozilek's Return will be Miracles' answer to it rather than 'clasm? Or even Devastation Tide?

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Miracles might be able to get away with Kozilek's Return, but lots of people will be on Sudden Demise, Rough/Tumble, and Pyroclasm too. Black has even more varied options.

[Warden]

Any black deck can likely play Dread of Night safely without affecting their creatures (I know I have one in my Grixis Delver sideboard), but what decks can afford to play Massacre? Storm and Reanimator? I haven't seen it in anything else before.

The extra 2 power creatures (Prelate, THC) will survive Dread of Night and Golgari Charm, but not Massacre.

Black decks will also consider Virtue's Ruin and Toxic Deluge -- ignoring P/T altogether.
@RobNC thanks for the FNM report!

[Finn]

Good point, Warden. Deluge is a lot less narrow. I can see a strong case for maindecking it even, as the guys in my meta do. I don't think we have an especially good answer for it. But I do think that we are even better at bouncing back from it than before.

[RobNC]

Burrenton Forge-Tender is often used in Modern to protect from Pyroclasm and Anger of the Gods, but I don't know if it would protect us from much else. Kozilek's Return is colorless (Mom doesn't help either). Would be a cool trick with Vial on 1, though. Absolute Law is a more permanent answer but again really only helps with Pyroclasm/Anger.

Deluge is common in my meta, too. Prelate on 3 is probably the only way we're going to be stopping that.


(Side question: how do I get card names to be a link that shows the card when the cursor hovers?)

[alohazendo]

(Side question: how do I get card names to be a link that shows the card when the cursor hovers?)

Put the word "cards" inside brackets, then type out the cards you want, then, "/cards", inside brackets.