[Deck] Death and Taxes

[Luca Grease]

I quoted this post because it represents a strong emotional response to criticism. Rather than postulate as to why THC may not have made the cut and discussing that, it resorts to dismissive and thought-killing arguments. Sticking our fingers in our ears, closing our eyes, and ignoring data that contradicts what we hold to be true is not how we delve to the facts concerning the matter at hand..

Wait, what? Is this Bizarro world or something? Jesus, has the quality of the discussion ITT plummeted recently, or has it been this way for a while, and I am realizing just now?

My "strong emotional response", as you called it, was merely pointing out the logical fallacy of what the poster I quoted said by explaining some undeniable facts, namely:

1 - saying "X placing list didn't play card Y, so card Y must have been bad in that meta" is a completely unwarranted assumption. In order to say that, we'd have to know what the number of DnT lists were in that event, how many of them played THC and how those lists did. Even then, other factors (player skill, luck, other card choices) would explain most of the variance, and we could only draw reliable conclusions by averaging results from a much larger sample. However, even if we wanted to extrapolate something from this tournament only, we absolutely cannot do it because we don't have any of the aforementioned data.

2 - Speaking of missing data, we don't even know how many players were in this tournament, which is obviously a critical factor when evaluating a result. Some of these SCG side events have been getting pretty small: 14th out of 50 players isn't all that impressive, really...

Fine, you might say, but do we need to conduct a variance analysis with data from hundreds of tournaments and thousands of lists in order to be able to evaluate every single card? Of course not (although a little more prudence wouldn't hurt most posters), which is why people will generally form an opinion by a) testing and b) studying successful lists and hearing what those pilots have to say. Well, we don't know why those pilots chose not to play THC, and, more importantly, we don't know whether we can consider them successful. Certainly not as successful as the only pilots who have recently top-8ed large, competitive legacy events with DnT lists running THC. If you're into overinterpreting single tournament results, you should definitely start from there. Or perhaps YOU are cherry picking the results that fit your preconceived idea...

All in all, I truly don't see how my clear, logical points could be misconstrued as "dismissive and thought-killing arguments", and I would truly like the opinion of other posters on this.

Oh and by the way, the "frank" joke is getting old, fast. It was funny the first time, and the point behind it was legitimate (although not nearly as pertinent as some of its proponents might think). Now it has gotten lame, with a bunch of posters ironically using it to derail all objective discussion about the card into "lulz you guyz are only playing the card cause it's called Thalia...". No, seriously, we aren't. You can drop the psychoanalysis already, it's making you sound dull and moronic.

[Koby]

Frank is Thalia, Heretic Cathar.

Iatee was making a point that people would be a lot more skeptical if Thalia, Heretic Cathar had been named Frank, Heretic Cathar, because the mental association with an already existing 4 of clouded people's judgment when evaluating THC for the deck. People started calling her Frank after that.

Finally a reasonable person. THC is too expensive at 3 mana to be playable as a viable strategy akin to Prison in D&T. Accelerating her out works better. Better yet, splash Green for Root Maze; which sees zero play.

[Warden]

...
:eek: Ugh, just saw the 0 Cavern of Souls in the mono white list, and only 1 in the red splash list... Not a fan of some of these choices at all, I wonder whether they were dictated by card availability issues... Overall, the placing list from Ovino XI and BoM look a lot more polished...

@R/W list: I found this comment interesting. I said it a few pages back -- the splash lists cannot run off so many colorless lands. I'm actually surprised he doesn't trade in a canopy or waste for another fetch or dual tbh. His list needs some amount of red-producing lands. To push for more Caverns would be a mistake...it would force the list to live or dies with cavern or vial @3 in play. Too risky.
His Sharpshooter in the SB is actually really interesting. I'd be curious to hear how that worked out IRL because on paper I think it's beyond my personal risk-reward boundaries.

@THC discussion: We've gotten out of hand. @Luca says it best in his most recent post (above).

[Luca Grease]

@R/W list: I found this comment interesting. I said it a few pages back -- the splash lists cannot run off so many colorless lands. I'm actually surprised he doesn't trade in a canopy or waste for another fetch or dual tbh. His list needs some amount of red-producing lands. To push for more Caverns would be a mistake...it would force the list to live or dies with cavern or vial @3 in play. Too risky.
His Sharpshooter in the SB is actually really interesting. I'd be curious to hear how that worked out IRL because on paper I think it's beyond my personal risk-reward boundaries.

@THC discussion: We've gotten out of hand. @Luca says it best in his most recent post (above).

In most W/R lists, Cavern of souls was effectively a red-producing land, since the red cards were mostly humans (Recruiter, Magus). Goblin sharpshooter aside (which could be subbed for one of the multiple available human pingers) an extra Cavern is in no way riskier than an extra Plateau when it comes to being able to cast his red creatures. Sure he also has the singleton Sudden Demise, but Cavern will cast his Warping Wail so that pretty much evens out.
I totally agree that Horizon Canopy should have been a different land, but cutting a Wasteland? Hell no.

Anyway, we are spending way too much time pondering over a list that probably went 4-2 at best. Way more than we did over lists that actually top-8ed 200ish player events, and all because someone wasn't really good at statistical inference, and a bunch of other posters feel really smart cause they think they've discovered this massive irrational bias that is clouding everybody else's judgement... Let's just move on, please.

[Whitefaces]

#jesuisfrank

[iatee]

http://i.imgur.com/vSm60i3.png

[Luca Grease]

^^

I'm a photoshop illiterate, but you should cross out the turn 3 part and replace it with "only on turn 2 through acceleration...".

[iatee]

All I can say is...I did it my way.

[Finn]

All I can say is...I did it my way.
Heh, I like the humor of this entire quip a lot. You are showing your age. I wonder how many people will know what the hell you are talking about.


But I wonder deep down if we are all playing this deck the same way.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Well, I finally got my list built, and I played it last night in a little 3-round "get your area into legacy" grinder at my LGS. 5 of the 8 players there were from my team...

G1: Played against a non-team member without any legacy experience or cards for that matter. I slaughtered his b/w all basics list, keeping him off white for the entire game with a port, eventually using Mangara to snipe every last land he played and won two points of damage at a time.

G2: Not for sure how this went other than about the exact same kind of thrashing, just using different cards.

2-0 in games, 1-0 in matches


round 2: Sneak 'n Show

G1: I keep him off kilter without really knowing what he's on, at first I thought it was UR Delver with a bad draw, since my meta didn't have this in it until just here. Anyway, late into the game, turn 10 maybe? I've applied pressure and disruption and he finally fires off a Show and Tell. I say okay and lay a Thalia 2.0 down. His choice? Sneak Attack. He scoops.

G2: I lay an early Prelate down on 3 and he doesn't do much. I double down on Prelate on 3, and keep swinging. He plays blood moon, I point to the two Prelates and that's the game.


4-0 in games, 2-0 in matches.

I finally lost to lands, but I mulled to 6 one game and 5 another. I did get 1 win in off of the back of a Prelate on 2. The game I mulled to 5 on I only saw one land. Against 4 ports, that's not gonna cut it.

Tied for first with the lands player. 5-2 record on the night.

I really like this deck and can't imagine not playing it full time. Thanks, guys, and especially you, Finn. I love your deck.

-ABC

[zebotc]

Have we ever considered maze of ith as a possible land to run? It seems like it might be alright but the fact it can't produce mana also makes it seem like it's not the best choice, maybe worth a try though as a 1-2 of.

[MasterBlaster]

Have we ever considered maze of ith as a possible land to run? It seems like it might be alright but the fact it can't produce mana also makes it seem like it's not the best choice, maybe worth a try though as a 1-2 of.

Only with a way to tutor it up reliably. But we are already running equipment tutors and creature tutors in the deck. Just doesn't fit in D&T as I see it.

[mykatdied]

Could run weathered wayfarer, but that just seems cute and slow and doesn't help against a true name nemesis which is usually the only creature that I'm concerned with stopping. Marit Lage could be something you want to stop, but most decks that make a Marit Lage won't give us the chance to get a non basic to stick and stop that

[Penguinizer]

I don't really care for Eiganjo Castle. I think its only useful application is protecting a Thalia 2.0 from lightning bolt, and that's fairly lackluster as far as interactions go, especially when Karakas is already a thing. I think 4 ports are really important. Any particular reason you aren't trying out the prelates?

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I don't have prelates since buying Thalia 2.0s and Recruiters put a hurting on my budget. I'll get them at some point, but probably not for the tournament. I'm wondering if Wilt-Leaf's are even worth considering at this point. Too slow to deal with Dread of Night. That's pretty much one of my biggest issues that I'm trying to figure out a workaround for.

[Whitefaces]

I don't have prelates since buying Thalia 2.0s and Recruiters put a hurting on my budget. I'll get them at some point, but probably not for the tournament. I'm wondering if Wilt-Leaf's are even worth considering at this point. Too slow to deal with Dread of Night. That's pretty much one of my biggest issues that I'm trying to figure out a workaround for.

Veteran Armorer or Leonin Relic Warder are both ways around Dread of Night that Recruiter can search for.

[Finn]

Veteran Armorer or Leonin Relic Warder are both ways around Dread of Night that Recruiter can search for.

I ditched the Armorer idea since we got Prelate. It does nothing at all against Massacre. Of our pertinent hate, Dread of Night really only kills TGT, so it just does not seem as good any more.

[Colin]

I keep checking back, but the shit posting (that usually avoids this thread) is pretty rank right now.

I'm traveling to Eternal Weekend and I need my practice.

I'm still grinding.

I'm still on 2 recruiters, and I'm set on 2 prelate main / 1 board. Prelate. Is. Backbreaking. Recruiter is too, but shines brightest in those long matches where you're seeing them late.

Thalia Hi-C (the orange drank of choice) is a 2 of and I'm sticking to it. The 1-sidedness of this card is simply amazing. I haven't seen many people comment on this, but the real hurt for your opponent is that you get to sneak extra damage in. With her on board, I get so many extra little shots in with Revokers, prelates and Thalia 2.0 that would usually be just sitting and staring across the board at goyfs.

For so many decks in legacy that leverage life as a resource, this is huge. I've had more games where opponents have to worry about fetching into lethal range than i can keep track of.

4 Stoneforge to capitalize off of the aggressiveness that is Thalia Hi-C. People either remove her or start playing around her. Around her is the "long game" where SFM shines.

4 Flickewisp. End of story for me.

MONO WHITE

4 Mother OR
4 Thalia GT
4 Stone FM
4 Flickerwisp
4 Swords TP
4 Aether V

3 Revoker

2 Recruiter
2 Prelate
2 Thalia Hi-C

1 Mirran

1 Jitte
1 Batterskul
1 Sword of F&I

9 plains
4 wasteland
4 Ports
3 Karakas
2 caverns
1 Flagstones


Sideboard:
2 containment priest
2 ethersworn
3 RIP
1 Manriki
2 Path to Exile
1 mangara
1 Cataclysm
1 Armegeddon
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 ALWAYS IN FLUX (probably default to Wiltleaf or another flyer)


I'm playing R/W long and controlly. It's boring as hell but super consistent. I almost never search up anything but flickerwisps or displacer in a vacuum. All the other targets are basically auto selects dependent on the game. Displacer is a must-answer if it resolves and is easily (IMO) the best card against Shardless or miracles if it gets to do its thing. Sudden demise is a 2 of because it's awesome and I can't tutor it

I'm using path to exile in both build because Iatee started the "Center for decks that cant removal good and want to do other stuff good too".

And I attended.

R/W Taxes

4 Mother OR
4 Thalia GT
4 Swords TP
4 Aether Vial

3 Stone FM
3 Flickerwisp
3 Recuiter oTG

2 Revoker
2 Prelate

1 eldrazi displacer
1 mangara
1 Magus oTM
1 Mirran
1 Pia & Kirran

1 Jitte
1 Batterskul
1 Sword of F&I

5 fetch
3 plains
2 plateau
4 wasteland
4 Ports
3 Karakas
2 caverns



Sideboard:
2 containment priest
2 ethersworn
2 RIP
1 Manriki
1 Path to Exile
2 sudden Demise
1 goblin sharpshooter
1 Gideon Ally
1 Cataclysm
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 ALWAYS IN FLUX (probably default to mirran/brimaz or another flyer)

Both lists are solid, good in an open meta and put me in the W bracket more than my play skill warrants.

FYI Most of my testing is against legacy-only players and at home, so we can stop a game midway and discuss tactics etc. Some online. A few 15-20 person tournaments.

If you have questions on card selection (mostly #'s I'd bet) I'd love to talk about them. If you're going to tell me I'm a bad player and I should feel bad, maybe just argue with the other people

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I'm not super concerned about Dread of Night. 2x sucks, but I play 2x Relic-Warder in my 75 as well as 2x CJ. I feel confident that I can play around the first DoN, and deal with 1x if they get a second down. If they play 3 AND get them all in one game, that's variance and you should start praying to their God instead of your current one.

Massacre. If it becomes more popular, it's probably not a popular idea, but there are 2x things I have thought about. First, I'll drop my basic Plains count and move to some number of Flagstones and Horizon canopies so as not to turn on its free mode if at all possible, and then also there is Warping Wail that counters sorceries. I'm sure this will not be a popular idea as it'll cost 3 to do that with a Thalia out and requires a colorless source, which is more difficult than I thought it would be.

Edit: I'm wrong, lol, if my answer is Relic-Warder then I must deal with the first one or else I am unable to deal with the second one.

What should a sideboard have in it? Props if you know local Denver meta, lol.

Here is my list, I suppose. Some of you guys won't like it, I think. Anyway:

3x Mom
1x Leonin Relic-Warder
4x TGT
3x Revoker
3x SFM
1x Mangara
1x Mirran Crusader
2x THC
3x Recruiter OTG
2x Prelate
3x Flickerwisp
1x SoFI
1x Jitte
4x StP
4x Aether Vial
2x Mox Diamond
4x Wasteland
4x Port
3x Karakas
3x Cavern of Souls
9x Plains

My sideboard isn't finished, but what I've put together so far is:

2x Canonist
2x E. Tutor
2x RIP
1x Magus of the Moon
2x CJ
1x Relic-Warder
1x Cataclysm
1x Fiendslayer Paladin
1x THC
1x Prelate
1x Batterskull

[zebotc]

I'm not super concerned about Dread of Night. 2x sucks, but I play 2x Relic-Warder in my 75 as well as 2x CJ. I feel confident that I can play around the first DoN, and deal with 1x if they get a second down. If they play 3 AND get them all in one game, that's variance and you should start praying to their God instead of your current one.

Massacre. If it becomes more popular, it's probably not a popular idea, but there are 2x things I have thought about. First, I'll drop my basic Plains count and move to some number of Flagstones and Horizon canopies so as not to turn on its free mode if at all possible, and then also there is Warping Wail that counters sorceries. I'm sure this will not be a popular idea as it'll cost 3 to do that with a Thalia out and requires a colorless source, which is more difficult than I thought it would be.

Edit: I'm wrong, lol, if my answer is Relic-Warder then I must deal with the first one or else I am unable to deal with the second one.

What should a sideboard have in it? Props if you know local Denver meta, lol.

Here is my list, I suppose. Some of you guys won't like it, I think. Anyway:

3x Mom
1x Leonin Relic-Warder
4x TGT
3x Revoker
3x SFM
1x Mangara
1x Mirran Crusader
2x THC
3x Recruiter OTG
2x Prelate
3x Flickerwisp
1x SoFI
1x Jitte
4x StP
4x Aether Vial
2x Mox Diamond
4x Wasteland
4x Port
3x Karakas
3x Cavern of Souls
9x Plains

My sideboard isn't finished, but what I've put together so far is:

2x Canonist
2x E. Tutor
2x RIP
1x Magus of the Moon
2x CJ
1x Relic-Warder
1x Cataclysm
1x Fiendslayer Paladin
1x THC
1x Prelate
1x Batterskull

As far as sideboarding goes it's really meta dependent. I used to be a long time advocate of running E tutor in the sideboard but recently I've been starting to think it's not that good. My whole reasoning for it was it allows all of our sideboard options to basically be a 3-4 of but I'm not sure it's really necessary anymore our plans against decks that it would be useful are already fairly consistent and especially since you are already running ROTG it might be better to put more tutorable creatures or maybe some Gideon's there depending on your meta.

How has Mox diamond been working for you? I'm still really on the fence about that card but I think it has its place in the right build perhaps.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

For me, I enjoy the Tutors. They give me additional ways to get equipment, they are excellent against discard as well as helpful in finding a Revoker earlier against Miracles so they don't get too far ahead.

So, I guess Diamond has been fine, like other said I've only played around 5 matches with the deck. I did get to go t1 Thalia, t2 Thalia 2.0. That was game.

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[Vandalize]

I'm still playing RW Death and Taxes. Magus of the Moon is too good to be on the bench.

Lands [23]
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Cavern of Souls
2 Karakas
4 Arid Mesa
4 Plains
2 Plateau

Creatures [26]
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Flickerwisp
2 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Sanctum Prelate
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Magus of the Moon
1 Mirran Crusader

Spells [11]
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard [15]
2 Path to Exile
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Rest in Peace
2 Council's Judgement
1 Wear/Tear
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Containment Priest

This list has been running so smoothly. Recruiter of the Guard printing was the best thing that could have happened, nobody wants to cash out for Imperial Recruiters. I don't own three pieces of Karakas, so I'm using 3 Cavern of Souls instead, but it has been working fine. Any comments or advice on the list?

[Kayradis]

So, got back into it.
Dusted my old list and ran it to a Shitty 1-2 result at the Weekly Legacy here. I'm rusty as hell, I'm not gonna lie.

Here's my list.
Need some massive updates.
Feel free to comment

7 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
2 Cavern of Souls
3 Karakas
2 Horizon Canopy

4 Mother of Runes
2 Serra Avenger
4 SFM
2 P Revoker
4 TGT
1 Fiend Hunter
2 Vryn Wingmare
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Mangara of Corondor
4 Flickerwisp

4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshare
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

Sideboard is always changing.

[mykatdied]

So, got back into it.
Dusted my old list and ran it to a Shitty 1-2 result at the Weekly Legacy here. I'm rusty as hell, I'm not gonna lie.

Here's my list.
Need some massive updates.
Feel free to comment

7 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
2 Cavern of Souls
3 Karakas
2 Horizon Canopy

4 Mother of Runes
2 Serra Avenger
4 SFM
2 P Revoker
4 TGT
1 Fiend Hunter
2 Vryn Wingmare
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Mangara of Corondor
4 Flickerwisp

4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshare
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

Sideboard is always changing.

I must say that running 22 land with the 6 "thalia" configuration. Do you ever have issues using swords to plow when you need it? Personally not a fan of wingmare. I would select either crusader or avenger. Depends on what is more prevalent, punishing fire or abrupt decay. Recruiter and prelate really are amazing. I would suggest you check into them

[RobNC]

I tried THC as a 3-of in Maverick last night, hoping for the turn 2 dream drop. She either got countered or was bolted on sight; the only time she stuck she got Terminused away. I will admit I have the "emotional attachment" that was mentioned two pages back, as I've been trying hard to make her work. 10-20% of the time she's insane and practically wins you the game, but the rest of the time she's a little underwhelming. Usually when I drew her I wished it was a different card, and I felt that way when I last played D&T a few weeks ago. The infect player I played was the only one who was scared of her, because he didn't have main deck removal.

I'm not going to try to convince anyone not to run her, though, and I'll probably still continue to run a copy or two myself. I'm just at the point now where I feel we have other better 3-drop hate pieces (Sanctum Prelate) or beaters.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I think she certainly has her good matchups. I also think that in some others, she's the first thing you side out.

I have no emotional attachment to THC. I do think that against SnT, lands, the mirror, and most goyf decks, she is decent to broken, depending on what turn it is. She does die a lot, but I'm not sure that makes her bad, but rather a pretty good bait card.

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[Poron]

imho Thalia 2 is great with Thalia 1, mana dorks and Winter Orb

She can really shine the best in Maverick.

4 Deathrite
1 Noble
4 Gsz
4 Thalia GoT
3 THALIA, HC
4 Mother of Runes


Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant, Abrupt Decay and Stoneforge Mystics for endless variants..

[Secretly.A.Bee]

If they play a Dryad Arbor, the amount of turn 2 thalia 2.0 goes up quite a bit. However, how does this pertain to DnT? Not trying to be a jerk, but this isn't useful for me. I have an event tomorrow morning and ifanyone would give an opinion or suggestion on my list, I'd appreciate it.

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[RobNC]

I didn't intend to derail this into a Maverick vs. D&T discussion for THC, I only mentioned it to make a point that my feeling of her, even on turn 2, is rather unchanged. Amazing some of the time, "meh" the rest of the time.


If they play a Dryad Arbor, the amount of turn 2 thalia 2.0 goes up quite a bit. However, how does this pertain to DnT? Not trying to be a jerk, but this isn't useful for me. I have an event tomorrow morning and ifanyone would give an opinion or suggestion on my list, I'd appreciate it.

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What's your current list? The one you posted the other day with two Mox Diamond?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Yes.

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[zebotc]

Alright I've done over 100 test games and some number crunching and have created a list of data points that might be very helpful for us in figuring out how many of each card we should actually be running based on how much we want to draw it, how many multiples we want in a game, etc. I know you could use a hyper geometric calculator for this but they sometimes output data in harder to read ways that don't relate to magic. So I've created a list of sorts that shows the various probabilities out of 100 games to draw a given card as a 1 of, 2 of, 3 of, and 4 of. Hope it's helpful!


MTG Card Probabilities Based on Number in Deck

100 Trials (Games)

The Deck
- 50 Islands
- 4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance ---------- The 4 of
- 3 Vampire Nighthawk --------------------- The 3 of
- 2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben ---------- The 2 of
- 1 Elvish Mystic ------------------------------ The 1 of

Turn 0 or Opener (7 beginning cards)




Times 1 Was Drawn
Times 2 Were Drawn
Times 3 Were Drawn
Overall Percent of Getting at Least 1


4 of
44
2
1
47%



3 of
27
4
0
31%



2 of
17
3
0
20%



1 of
12
0
0
12%



Nothing Drawn
28
0
0
28%




After Drawing 6 Additional Cards (Around Turn 5-7) CARD NOT IN OPENER




Times 1 Was Drawn
Times 2 Were Drawn
Times 3 Were Drawn
Overall Percent Drawing at Least 1 if it Was Not in the Opener


4 of
28
3
1
32%


3 of
24
3
0
27%


2 of
22
1
0
23%


1 of
11
0
0
11%




After Drawing 6 Additional Cards CARD ALREADY IN OPENER




Times 1 Was Drawn
Times 2 Were Drawn
Overall Percent of Drawing at Least 1 Copy of a Card After it Was Already in the Opener


4 of
11
2
12%


3 of
6
0
6%


2 of
1
0
1%



Nothing Drawn At All After 6 Draws



Nothing Drawn After Opener
33 Games
33% of Games



Overall Percent of Drawing a Card in a Game




Overall Percent of Drawing at Least 1
Overall Percent of Drawing 2 or More


4 of
79%
19%


3 of
58%
13%


2 of
43%
5%


1 of
23%
N/A

[iatee]

If you do use a hypergeometric calculator, you'd see that the chance of drawing one of your 4-ofs in your opening 7 is 40% not 47% and in fact, you'd only get to 47% with a 5-of. That's a pretty big difference, and pretty important since 'What's the chance of hitting one of my 4-ofs in my opening 7' is actually a number worth keeping in the back of your pocket. Most of the other results you got don't seem to be as far off but there's still no real reason not to just make the same table using calculated results, since right now you're just approaching the real numbers instead of just getting them...

[zebotc]

I used real life testing because even though in a game theoretically those numbers would be the actual chance I wanted to see realistically in a given set of games how the draws would pan out. Of course if I did over a million games yeah the numbers would be fairly close. But I wanted to test the hyper geometric calculations to reality and create a data set based on a given set of games. It shows that there is substantial variation in just what a hyper geometric calculator calculates which makes sense because we're dealing with probabilities. Your right though it's not entirely accurate but I think it servers as a useful example because instead of just using the actual calculated values it puts them to the test.

Something incredibly interesting I found was that running a 3 of vs a 4 of seemed to significantly reduce your chances of seeing multiples of that card in a given game (a 4 of is around 1.8-2 times as likely to be drawn twice). It makes sense that it would reduce it slightely but I was surprised how significant the difference was.

This leads me to some conclusions about the number of cards we should actually be running.

First ROTG- I still think running this as a 4 of is way way to much however, I could see running a 3 of with a specific list but I think a 2 of would be the perfect sweet spot because you don't want multiples and it's only good in some games.

Flikerwisp and ROTG - I feel like if you add 2 ROTG you could safely take out 1 flickerwisp because by the turn you need to draw it your chances of finding it are essentially the same if not higher and a four of seems like it's too much.

our sideboard may need to be addressed too, I'm starting to have a feeling running one ofs that are non tutorable might be a waste of a sideboard slot. Possibly the best option would be to put lots of tutorable cards in it, and cards as 2-3 ofs for consistency. 1 of pithing needle and cataclysm is starting to make less sense because youre only going to draw it in a small amount of games even post sideboard. But then again running one ofs has been beneficial in some games in the past but how beneficial has it actually been? I honestly don't know yet but it's an interesting idea.

[iatee]

The calculations are more reality than your simulation though. You can both calculate the real answer and calculate how far off the real answer results are likely to be if you run 100 hands at once. There was a microscopic chance that you ran the simulations times and drew Chandra 100% of the time. But had that happened nobody would have anything new to learn from that either. The chance to draw her in your opening hand is still 40%. And because you play one game at a time, that's true for one game, 100 games and a million games.

[zebotc]

The calculations are more reality than your simulation though. You can both calculate the real answer and calculate how far off the real answer results are likely to be if you run 100 hands at once. There was a microscopic chance that you ran the simulations times and drew Chandra 100% of the time. But had that happened nobody would have anything new to learn from that either. The chance to draw her in your opening hand is still 40%. And because you play one game at a time, that's true for one game, 100 games and a million games.

I agree with you that the calculator shows the actual probability of drawing a card. But I just thought it would be intersting to see it in a controlled test. It might be a good idea though to add the theoretical values to the table to show the variation that exists from the tested to mathematically calculated ones.

[Fry]

I don't think that the "real world" stats is going to do anything off of only ~100 games. It doesn't really add up. There aren't enough data points for it to be spot on correct. Correct for that set of games, sure, but not representative as a whole.

There are so many things that affect the randomness factor of drawing cards in the opening 7, shuffling techniques (sometimes lack there of), number of shuffle iterations, old sleeves that stick together a little bit vs new sleeves (especially significant with the old sleeves if the same card is next to each other.

While I think that your "data" points for your ~100 games is interesting and gives some moderately close stats, I think it's ultimately just something for fill the void of empty time. Doesn't really show the true probabilities once the exercise if repeated 1,000,000+ times.

[raudo]

I'm still playing RW Death and Taxes. Magus of the Moon is too good to be on the bench

This list has been running so smoothly. Recruiter of the Guard printing was the best thing that could have happened, nobody wants to cash out for Imperial Recruiters. I don't own three pieces of Karakas, so I'm using 3 Cavern of Souls instead, but it has been working fine. Any comments or advice on the list?

I would definitely try to add couple of Nahiris in the list. Lock and win.

[zebotc]

I don't think that the "real world" stats is going to do anything off of only ~100 games. It doesn't really add up. There aren't enough data points for it to be spot on correct. Correct for that set of games, sure, but not representative as a whole.

There are so many things that affect the randomness factor of drawing cards in the opening 7, shuffling techniques (sometimes lack there of), number of shuffle iterations, old sleeves that stick together a little bit vs new sleeves (especially significant with the old sleeves if the same card is next to each other.

While I think that your "data" points for your ~100 games is interesting and gives some moderately close stats, I think it's ultimately just something for fill the void of empty time. Doesn't really show the true probabilities once the exercise if repeated 1,000,000+ times.

It was just a thing I did when I had some spare time because I thought it would be fun to test the hypergeometric calculator to actual games, obviously the hypergeometric calculator is the most accurate representation of it but since my values were fairly close I figured it'd be interesting and possibly useful to post them just to give people a real world example of what could happen in a given set of games. I think if anything the data sets I found prove more that we should be using hypergeometric calculation in some situations when choosing card amounts.

Anyways regardless of those data points and what they represent, it really seems like we should consider more the actual probability of drawing a card when we put it in our deck. I saw some people saying it was crazy to go down to 3 flickerwisp for example (Which makes sense because in classic DnT doing that is almost detrimental because it's such a key card in our strategy), but honestly with the addition of recruiter it makes a lot of sense because your chances of getting a flickerwisp actually go up with recruiter and your normal chances of drawing specifically one naturally are honestly not that much different.

Now the amount of recruiters we should possibly be running - IMO 4 is to many, your chances of double drawing are incredibly high and you honestly only need one if any in a given game normally. So 1-3 would probably be alright with 2 being a good middle ground.

Then there is the thing with our sideboard and running non tutorable 1 ofs and if it's actually worth it. It's starting to seem like running random 1 of's with no consistency honestly doesn't help that much and the one random game that would be won from it could have been made up for by running more consistent SB options.

[Warden]

Interesting discussion that mirrors a conversation from my office. Honestly, there is a lot of good thought here. To throw my 2 cents in the ring: the quantitative approach (stats, hypergeometic distrib) needs qualitative feedback (stories, opinion on performance, real world experiences from IRL matches) to form a true assessment. You need both sides of the coin to get a clearer picture.

I love stats and % but don't buy into them as the be-all, end-all approach to running cards in MTG. Magic will never have a perfect list and even if you had the best "on paper" distribution of card slots, there are a myriad of events and circumstances that mitigate the "perfect" list.

There are 2 very big areas where hypergeometric distributions don't click with MTG:
1 - Dumb luck. Others have brought this up, but sometimes you just never see [insert card] all game or all match. Even when the math is in your favor. Mana screw/mana flood as big examples. "Where the hell is card X -- I have 3 in the deck and I still haven't seen one by turn 7" as yet another. Hypergeometric is correct to a degree, but there are times you run more/less of a card based on your own dumb luck/reaction to prior experiences. With respect to Recruiter and the other flex slots for DnT, some players had success with a toolbox. Others preferred 2x set of key cards (i.e. 2 prelate, 2 THC, 2 Avenger). I have not even touched upon the dumb luck of the opponent. Sometimes you lucky topdeck. Sometimes they can't find shit and you profit. The math/odds don't necessarily support why you dreamcrushed because "on paper" they should have seen an answer. Additionally, IRL too many random factors influence the % of drawing/seeing cards (including but not limited to inadequate shuffling/randomizing)

2 - Circumstances/Decision Trees. I mean this not only for cards with tutor abilities (fetches, SFM, Recruiter), but also for your opponent. When building a deck, you need to factor in "will this card be destroyed? Countered? Better in bulk or as a singleton?" It drives me crazy when players tell me "you don't need so many X in the deck because you [can get by/only need] 1 copy". Perhaps the one and only copy you draw in the opening 7 has a tendency to die/get countered/discarded. Now what? Perhaps you like a card in multiples. SFM as a nice example. If a second one shows up, I'm not usually upset.

The bottom line I'm trying to make is that we can definitely take some of the hypergeometric discussion but preface it with the need to think about qualitative feedback and better our discussion. AFAIK, some of the best feedback in the thread has been about the impact the new cards have had on the game. Was a card great? Would you have won easier/not lost if multiples hit the table (prelate I'm very curious about exactly this)? Maybe something was a dud. THC for some folks doesn't shine. I'd love to hear why. Maybe she clogs the hand with multiples (going with or against the odds of you drawing her). Maybe all THC does is come out to get countered or take a bolt in the face. Hypergeo doesn't give us the full picture. This is where we need civil and insightful discussions beyond "this card/list sucks" or "you disagree with me but I'll just keep beating my own drum".

[iatee]

Definitely agree Warden. I feel like THC is like the Donald Trump of DnT in that its introduction has really torn this thread apart and destroyed our civility.

I played 20 games yesterday with a friend on Mentorless hard control Miracles today, with the following list:

4 Thalia (baby Frank)
4 SfM
3 Revoker
1 Spirit of the Lab
4 Mom
3 Prelate
3 Recruiter
3 Flickerwisp
1 Banisher Priest
4 Vial
4 STP
Bskull
Sofi
Jitte
3 Cavern
3 Karakas
4 Wasteland
4 Port
9 Plains

SB:
3 Path
2 Rest in Peace
Relic Warder
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Ethersworn
Sword of War and Peace
Palace Jailer
Faerie Macabre
Ghost Quarter
Mangara

Friend is a very good Miracles player, I don't want to talk him up too much cause he reads this thread, but he's a tournament end boss type. I went 6-4 pre-board and 6-4 post-board, so 12-8 overall, but we both got the sense that the numbers didn't reflect how ahead I was pre-board (I started out 6-2 and got unlucky with my last 2 games) and how it was more even post-board (got luckier and had a decent number of Vial hands.) I would put the EW rate with this more at 65-70% preboard and 50% postboard assuming they have an average amount of cards to bring in and both players are playing competently.

Palace Jailer (SB experiment) didn't do anything but eat a counterspell twice, so I have nothing to say about it other than "It's bad if you hardcast it without a Cavern and they have the card 'Counterspell' in hand." I swapped it with THC (not the drug) after 5 games, which also ate a counterspell once and was good t4 one game with Karakas. Never had a desire to tutor for either of those in any of the 20 games.

Over those games I think I only tutored for:

Flickerwisp (when I could safely Flicker my Recruiter)
Another Recruiter (when I wasn't sure I wouldn't get wiped by a Terminus if I tried)
Prelate (often)
and I think a Revoker once

The other big SB card, Sword of War and Peace, felt mostly useless - with Prelate on 1 plus Moms already blanking STPs, I had no reason to spend a million mana to get the same effect. I wanted some generic anti-Miracles card for the board that I would be seeing regularly, but it just wasn't very good. SfM and the equipment in general felt less important because Chalice effects provide virtual card advantage and stretch out the game in your favor, so you don't feel pressured to win as quickly. They're not necessarily pulling ahead by just making their land drops.

I could see trying a 4th Prelate in the 75 and finding room for one Magus in the main since this build has an iffy g1 vs. Eldrazi.

[Luca Grease]

What destroyed the civility of this thread was the shit posting, really. People not having a clue about statistics making fallacious inferences, people parroting what they've read ad nauseam without bothering to articulate and justify their points, people CONSTANTLY discussing other decks, etc. I don't remember the quality of discussion in this thread ever being so low.

We might have different opinions about THC's worth in DnT, but those kinds of posts will only sabotage meaningful discussion about the card, and inevitably infuriate the reader (namely, me).

For example, I actually explained somewhat in detail why I thought THC to be quite good against Miracles, and I think it's no coincidence that the card performed well for you when you were able to resolve it. Keep in mind that most Miracle lists will play mentors, and THC is quite good against that card (assuming you are already in an aggressive position). A card's capability to turn a somewhat favorable position into a dominating one has often been dismissed as irrelevant or "win more", but I think that's flawed thinking. Against slow decks like Miracles, Shardless, or Stoneblade, we'll almost always take the initiative, while they have the tools to catch up and nullify that initial advantage. People also used to dismiss Mirran Crusader, because any connection with an equipped creature was enough to swing the game in your favor. I think we've all won enough games off of double strike + equipment to recognize that reasoning as not always valid.

I haven't tested SoWaP yet, but I imagine part of the allure of that card against Miracles is that it will allow you to swing past an army of monk tokens.

I think your assessment of the Miracles MU is pretty accurate. Even though the impact of our new cards will be somewhat lessened by them adapting their sideboards (and, in some cases, mainboards too), the result is still a net gain, pushing the match-up into firmly (though not overwhelmingly) favorable territory overall.

As for your list being pretty soft against Eldrazi g1: that's part of the reason why I've decided to go down to 2 Mentors. It is an amazing card and I don't think 3 is "wrong" by any stretch of the imagination, but I'd rather not feel so naked against a good percentage of the field, especially when some of those matchups are fairly even (Eldrazi, Maverick, mirror) and losing g1 because you drew too many dead/mediocre cards puts you in a pretty difficult position. However, the card is still close to an auto-win against 50% of the field, so I can understand someone wanting to polarize their chances a little bit... Having an extra 1 or even 2 in the board might be a good idea, though, if you can afford the spots.

Speaking of Eldrazi, I feel like the only way to make Magus doable in mono-white is to move up to 4 Caverns: I think this is a legit setup with a lot of potential, but it also places quite a few deckbuilding constrictions on your list: you're probably gonna have to move down to 2 Flickerwisps, and you basically can't play any non-human sb card requiring WW (Cataclysm, Gideon, Judgement). If you value the reliability of mono-white, THC is still pretty good at improving those percentage points against Eldrazi, while also providing value against virtually every deck Prelate is weak against. In general, lower raw lockout power than either Magus or Prelate, but broader and more reliable.

Finally, one question: is Mangara still worth it? I have decided to give it another chance in the mainboard by relegating the Banisher Priest to the side (I figured I could afford this because my maindeck is a bit more resilient to a fast Eldrazi start anyway), but I didn't really have many chances to evaluate it in the tournament I played with it...

[iatee]

Never thought THC wasn't good against Miracles, I think Miracles and Elves are where she's best. Anything legendary is automatically good against Miracles, I'd side in Soraya the Falconer if I had one.

I generally find Mentor lists easier to beat than non-Mentor lists because our maindecks run many ways to deal with an early Mentor, whereas an early Jace or a lucky Entreat are harder to answer. Real issue is figuring out how many Mentors their list is running and sideboarding properly. Prelate actually seems great against Mentor because landing Prelate on 1 effectively shuts down any sort of engine and they'll be forced to awkwardly Terminus if they want to get your Chalice off the table.

I'd play a Relic-Warder main if I wanted to hedge against non-blue decks, since the best not-wrecked-by-Prelate decks are either Chalice or Jitte decks (or both) and having a Disenchant main helps a lot. Aluren is also a growing presence and is not a fantastic matchup. Overall I think it's probably better to have a list that just absolutely wrecks Brainstorm decks g1 and to spend more of your sb on the non-blue decks.

I think a one-of Mangara is solid and I'd always rather have one in my 75 than not, it's generally just a space issue. I think in hard control builds of DnT, he's always good. Mangara-lock is a pretty good insurance policy for that wide world of fringe decks, which are also often gonna be Prelate-is-bad matchups.

[Marungo]

@Luca Grease
I assume you meant recruiter and not mentor since adding to the miracles discussion was clearly not your intention.

As for the discussion in this thread it is largely the reason I have been absent in discussion for a while. I've been here and reading what people are writing but it's been real bad lately. A lot of wasted discussion calling THC "Frank" as some joke while not providing reasoning why you don't like the card. A lot of anecdotal evidence about personal experience, which can be important but isn't an end all be all argument. A lot of continuing argument about cards that it is clear there is just a fundamental disagreement and conflict of style about, and yet the arguing isn't about reasons it's often just "this card sucks." Or "card is great. Played it and my opponent lost." And then of course there is the discussion about cards that are just not good or playable, but that's at least considering cards or trying to solve a problem the deck has so I'm not so against that.

Overall we're at a time with DnT that is incredible. 2 amazing cards have been added that change everything about the deck and make us rethink everything and all numbers that we have ever had. And yet we're wasting our time on silly discussions and arguments when we need to be trying to find a core list to work from, not just for us, but for new players of DnT. Heck I still don't know if I even am in love with recruiter (definitely like prelate though)! Let's just refocus the discussion, stop concerning ourselves with inside jokes and personal bias (not saying we can't joke just saying it went on a little too long), and instead work towards finding a core list to work from and determine how many recruiters are good or not good in an unknown meta. That seems to be one of the main things we could work on nailing down.

[Luca Grease]

Prelate actually seems great against Mentor because landing Prelate on 1 effectively shuts down any sort of engine and they'll be forced to awkwardly Terminus if they want to get your Chalice off the table.



Yes, people were talking about how you need to have Banisher Priest against Miracles to get rid of Mentor since Prelate on 1 will shut down your own plows, but as I said previously, Prelate on 1 means that their Mentor is little more than a Pearled Unicorn. In fact, I don't like Banisher Priest against Miracles because so many of their creatures have ETB effects/haste, increasing the blowout risk already represented by sweepers. I'd rather leave a couple of swords in and possibly Judgement.

As an aside, I have been able to blow out a miracles player trying to shut down my vials with Containment Priest by Flickerwisping his Mentor. This has happened more than once now, and, considering we now run multiple Caverns, and that they'll often try to fight us by bringing in creatures, there's a pretty good chance that CP will turn into a double-edged sword for them.

@ Marungo: I did, in fact, mean Prelate, and not Recruiter. I'm not sure I understand your comment... :eyebrow:

[iatee]

Yeah, Banisher Priest is bad vs Mentor. You want to punish them for the awkwardness between Terminus and Mentor, not make their Terminuses even better.

[Marungo]

Yes, people were talking about how you need to have Banisher Priest against Miracles to get rid of Mentor since Prelate on 1 will shut down your own plows, but as I said previously, Prelate on 1 means that their Mentor is little more than a Pearled Unicorn. In fact, I don't like Banisher Priest against Miracles because so many of their creatures have ETB effects/haste, increasing the blowout risk already represented by sweepers. I'd rather leave a couple of swords in and possibly Judgement.

As an aside, I have been able to blow out a miracles player trying to shut down my vials with Containment Priest by Flickerwisping his Mentor. This has happened more than once now, and, considering we now run multiple Caverns, and that they'll often try to fight us by bringing in creatures, there's a pretty good chance that CP will turn into a double-edged sword for them.

@ Marungo: I did, in fact, mean Prelate, and not Recruiter. I'm not sure I understand your comment... :eyebrow:
Oh sorry. I wasn't sure if you were talking about recruiter or prelate. I knew you weren't talking about mentor so I figured you were talking about one of our 3 drops and said mentor since you were talking about miracles, but I wasn't sure which 3 you were talking about and just wanted to clarify

[mykatdied]

Personally I usually get a SoFi or Jitte going if I need to answer some number of Monastery Mentor, as they match up well to hit it on your turn when it is less likely for prowess to happen. To be safe I also only board out a small number of swords to plowshares. Lately I really don't mind the miracles match up. New Thalia, Recruiter and Prelate are all great against it as they disrupt Miracles heavily in different ways.

I have gone back up to 2 Mangara given the fact that the format has somewhat slowed down. Mangara was the reason I got into Death and Taxes in the first place and I feel that it is great for the Miracles match up which can be long and grindy to reduce their lands counts. Should we get the lock on then we are less likely to get blown out or beaten by a random Entreat x=4 which will likely just beat us.

[Barook]

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/488932#online

This list went 7-0 in the latest Legacy challenge (lost in the quarters, though) and 5-0'ed a league afterwards. Most notable are 2x MD Gideon, 24 lands and 3x Armageddon in the SB.

No Recruiter or Prelate yet as they only get released next month via treasure chests. :rolleyes:

[BKclassic]

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/488932#online

This list went 7-0 in the latest Legacy challenge (lost in the quarters, though) and 5-0'ed a league afterwards. Most notable are 2x MD Gideon, 24 lands and 3x Armageddon in the SB.

No Recruiter or Prelate yet as they only get released next month via treasure chests. :rolleyes:

-I actually 5-0'd the league first and then 7-0'd the swiss rounds of the legacy challenge, so I got up to 12-0 before I lost to Miracles in the quarters.
-In the swiss rounds, I beat RW Painter, Miracles x3, Storm, Shardless BUG, RUG Delver, and lost to Miracles in the quarter finals.
-The deck very much wants an MD source of card advantage against Miracles and Shardless BUG and MD Gideon does just that.
-Armageddon is the best card against Miracles; Mentor and CounterTop are terrible when they don't have any lands. Cataclysm isn't good enough, it's too easy for them to rebuild with 1 land and top.
-In the quarters, Game 1, my opponent quickly assembled CounterTop, Terminus'd the board, then resolved Mentor (protected by CounterTop). Game 2, I kept a loose 6, Jitte, SoFI, Gideon and 3 lands. On turn 4, I jammed a peeled Phyrexian Revoker since my opponent had Top in play instead of jamming Gideon. My opponent answered the Revoker easily and had the FoW for Gideon next turn after Brainstorming. Definitely should have just jammed Gideon turn 4 or mulled to 5.
-I 4-1'd a few leagues before getting these results. The deck has been crushing the Miracles meta on MODO for me.

[Barook]

-I actually 5-0'd the league first and then 7-0'd the swiss rounds of the legacy challenge, so I got up to 12-0 before I lost to Miracles in the quarters.
-In the swiss rounds, I beat RW Painter, Miracles x3, Storm, Shardless BUG, RUG Delver, and lost to Miracles in the quarter finals.
-The deck very much wants an MD source of card advantage against Miracles and Shardless BUG and MD Gideon does just that.
-Armageddon is the best card against Miracles; Mentor and CounterTop are terrible when they don't have any lands. Cataclysm isn't good enough, it's too easy for them to rebuild with 1 land and top.
-In the quarters, Game 1, my opponent quickly assembled CounterTop, Terminus'd the board, then resolved Mentor (protected by CounterTop). Game 2, I kept a loose 6, Jitte, SoFI, Gideon and 3 lands. On turn 4, I jammed a peeled Phyrexian Revoker since my opponent had Top in play instead of jamming Gideon. My opponent answered the Revoker easily and had the FoW for Gideon next turn after Brainstorming. Definitely should have just jammed Gideon turn 4 or mulled to 5.
-I 4-1'd a few leagues before getting these results. The deck has been crushing the Miracles meta on MODO for me.
Given the dominance of Miracles on MTGO, it seems like a list is well-metagamed for that. What changes would you make to the list once Recruiter and Prelate arrive? Recruiter/Flickerwisp seems like a great way to generate CA similiar to Gideon (although weak to StP in response).

[BKclassic]

Given the dominance of Miracles on MTGO, it seems like a list is well-metagamed for that. What changes would you make to the list once Recruiter and Prelate arrive? Recruiter/Flickerwisp seems like a great way to generate CA similiar to Gideon (although weak to StP in response).

I only play online right now, so I haven't played a game with Prelate. With that said, I will start with:

-2 Gideon, -1 Land
+3 Recruiter of the Guard

-I would include some Caverns in the mana base once Recruiter is released.
-I honestly don't know what Prelate is supposed to be good against. I suppose Prelate and Mom are a good combo against Miracles, but Mom is otherwise strategically terrible against Miracles and Recruiter is already going to make G1 favorable. Post board, I just want to cast Armageddon.

[Luca Grease]

I have gone back up to 2 Mangara given the fact that the format has somewhat slowed down.

Even the most nostalgic and enthusiastic proponents of Mangara seem to agree that it should be a 1-of now that we have Recruiter. It is not a card you need to jam on turn 3, and it is legendary. That slot is better spent elsewhere.

One of the reasons I've decided to put Mangara back in the main is that it constitutes a catch-all answer that can fill both Banisher Priest and Leonin Relic Warder roles. Obviously, there are times where it will be too slow/vulnerable to act as an effective substitute, but the higher versatility and potential (via lock) make him my preferred choice when I only have 1 maindeck slot...

[mykatdied]

Even the most nostalgic and enthusiastic proponents of Mangara seem to agree that it should be a 1-of now that we have Recruiter. It is not a card you need to jam on turn 3, and it is legendary. That slot is better spent elsewhere.

One of the reasons I've decided to put Mangara back in the main is that it constitutes a catch-all answer that can fill both Banisher Priest and Leonin Relic Warder roles. Obviously, there are times where it will be too slow/vulnerable to act as an effective substitute, but the higher versatility and potential (via lock) make him my preferred choice when I only have 1 maindeck slot...

I run 2 since occasionally 1 gets answered or you need to activate without any way to bounce. That's just my personal preference. I also generally prefer to use recruiter for other cards like both thalias, flickerwisp or revoker.

[Luca Grease]

Oh sorry. I wasn't sure if you were talking about recruiter or prelate. I knew you weren't talking about mentor so I figured you were talking about one of our 3 drops and said mentor since you were talking about miracles, but I wasn't sure which 3 you were talking about and just wanted to clarify

Oh yes, I do seem to get Prelate and Mentor mixed up all the time for some reason. Probably cause they're both overpowered white 2/2s for 3 with a religious/monastic theme...

[infiniteJ]

I see there being a lot of debate on THC.

I've played her in only about ten rounds of play (as a 3 of or 2 of once I had recruiter). With the small sample size in mind, I maintain the card has been great for me. Vs tribal and other creature decks, she's a game changer (goblins, merfolks, mirror) allowing you to attack into vials and slowing down development. Vs control decks she acts as another threat with karakas, living through -1/-1 effects and severely hampering lands decks. I should add that the only combo deck I've played against has been elves, where she let me steal a match.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I beat SnT with her. It should be noted it was the omni hybrid list and got insanely lucky that he put out Sneak Attack with SnT instead. Literally any other permanent I was cold to.

I went down to 1 main, 1 board. That's where it will stay until I test a Mindcensor in its slot as a 1-of. This seems decent against the mirror and Delver, which I am trying to gain percentage points against, and there is splash damage against Combo.

I went 3-3 at the event. I had a hard time in the mirror, but it was my 5th round ever with the deck. He played manriki and got ahead of me that way.

Played against Infect twice, 2-0ing the first guy and got 0-2ed by the second. I needed to play tighter.

I went 2-1 vs. Miracles. I love this deck. I had 2x Prelate (1, 6), 2x Mom, 4 port in game 3. Hilarious. Won by a mile.

Edit: have any of you tested a luminthread field?

[colo]

Lumithread Field is the actual name of the card (it took me a few tries to find it). Weird stuff! I had no idea that it existed. What's particularly cool about it is that it even works thru Sulfur Elemental's split second :laugh:

[Finn]

That's two people I have read writing how effective THC is against Sneak Attack. She is not, actually. Sneak Attack is worded weird in that they can wait a turn and then use it during your End of Turn step as soon as you pass priority if memory serves. Then they just untap as normal and the creature sticks around for their turn.

THC is still the bees knees.

[Marungo]

That's two people I have read writing how effective THC is against Sneak Attack. She is not, actually. Sneak Attack is worded weird in that they can wait a turn and then use it during your End of Turn step as soon as you pass priority if memory serves. Then they just untap as normal and the creature sticks around for their turn.

THC is still the bees knees.

What's your current list Finn? I can't compromise playing prelate, recruiter, and THC so I'm wondering what you got going on.

[mykatdied]

That's two people I have read writing how effective THC is against Sneak Attack. She is not, actually. Sneak Attack is worded weird in that they can wait a turn and then use it during your End of Turn step as soon as you pass priority if memory serves. Then they just untap as normal and the creature sticks around for their turn.

THC is still the bees knees.

This also means that karakas is actually a way you can fight against sneak attack whereas usually they could just put 1 in and then do it again once karakas is tapped.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

That's two people I have read writing how effective THC is against Sneak Attack. She is not, actually. Sneak Attack is worded weird in that they can wait a turn and then use it during your End of Turn step as soon as you pass priority if memory serves. Then they just untap as normal and the creature sticks around for their turn.

THC is still the bees knees.
I'm curious as to why you guys think she (Thalia 2.0) is so good against Miracles. She is not very good against lots of basics and flash creatures as far as I can tell, and an eot Entreat doesn't give a fuck. She's only so-so against mentor, I would prefer to Prelate on one instead.

Also, earlier someone said they were going to play 4 Cavern. This feels terrible. I lost an otherwise winnable game on Sunday because I couldn't find a white source to activate my SFM, but I did draw 2 Caverns. I wouldn't play more than 3 (currently playing 3), and more testing will show if I play less.

And she isn't my knees, bro. [emoji41]

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[RobNC]

I'm curious as to why you guys think she (Thalia 2.0) is so good against Miracles. She is not very good against lots of basics and flash creatures as far as I can tell, and an eot Entreat doesn't give a fuck. She's only so-so against mentor, I would prefer to Prelate on one instead.

She helps stop the "surprise" blockers that Mentor can generate from instant spells. It helped me win a game once, but I was already pretty far ahead. Prelate on 1 would likely have a similar - if not better - effect on token generation in general, anyways, as it is beneficial in each player's turn for us.

[Luca Grease]

I'm curious as to why you guys think she (Thalia 2.0) is so good against Miracles. She is not very good against lots of basics and flash creatures as far as I can tell, and an eot Entreat doesn't give a fuck. She's only so-so against mentor, I would prefer to Prelate on one instead.



Because Miracles wants to use their flash creatures (including angels token from an entreat during your attack phase) to surprise block your creatures. Also, Miracles is a mana hungry deck that plays a lot of fetchlands, which it will use to shuffle their library to get fresh looks with top. Also, being able to protect it with Karakas is the shizzles. So yea, Thalia 2.0 is quite good against Miracles.

As for Sneak Attack, making them wait a turn is often good enough. Plus, as someone else pointed out, a Karakas will seal the deal.

[mykatdied]

Well karakas doesn't seal the deal. But if we can at least stop emrakul from getting in we're usually fine. End of turn emrakul plus Griselbrand could be tough since we have to make emrakul not attack and board wipe us, plus hopefully find a way to answer Griselbrand before it attacks. My main concern against sneak and show these days is omniscience especially if they have emrakul in habd.

[iatee]

My main concern with SnS is 'Not getting paired vs it often enough.'

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I agree iatee. I went down to 1 main, 1 board because of this, adding a single copy of Aven Mindcensor. I play against Delver more than Miracles, though. Only one person plays SnS here, and again, it's the omni hybrid, so it's also worse than normal. I think the best thing to do for this particular matchup is sanctum on 3 and Revoker on sneak attack.

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[Luca Grease]

Well karakas doesn't seal the deal. But if we can at least stop emrakul from getting in we're usually fine. End of turn emrakul plus Griselbrand could be tough since we have to make emrakul not attack and board wipe us, plus hopefully find a way to answer Griselbrand before it attacks. My main concern against sneak and show these days is omniscience especially if they have emrakul in habd.

I'm assuming we are talking about Omni-Sneak here because regular Sneak and Show can draw all the cards it wants, it' still not beating Thalia 2.0 + Karakas, at least in game 1. Even then, for Sneak Attack to do something against THC + Karakas that requires: resolve sneak attack -> pass. Untap, leave 2 red mana up (pretty hard) -> pass. At your eot, deploy Emmy and Grizzy, untap, Emmy gets bounced, swing in with Grizzy, draw into SnT + Omniscience (or whatever they were missing), combo out. All with their fetches, volcs and sol lands entering the battlefield tapped. It would literally take you to have nothing for that to work, I guess...

But yea, between Canonist, Prelate, mana denial, and most of our other creatures doing at least something against them, Omni-Sneak is not a matchup I particularly mind...

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I don't play Containment Priest due to the dissynergy of it and vial. It feels bad. Maybe if I played a version that ran multiple Displacers, but then I think I would just play Thalia stompy.

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[mykatdied]

I don't generally mind it either, unless they have "the nuts" like turn 1 or 2 show and tell into omni cast emrakul. If they have that there really isn't much we can do. That's when I have begun to dislike the match up.

[Medea_]

@Bkclassic
That list is sick. I'd be tempted to try to run something similar this weekend for EE, given the huge prevalence of Lands in the region.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Link?

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[mykatdied]

Link?

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http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=13685&d=280621&f=LE

[Finn]

What's your current list Finn? I can't compromise playing prelate, recruiter, and THC so I'm wondering what you got going on.
Marungo, my list is on the OP. I have been largely satisfied with it. I grumble about the slowness of Recruiter at times. I lament only having two Revokers in the main. And I am constantly questioning if the single Banisher Priest is better off as Mangara of Corondor. Mangara is a potential brilliant tutor-for answer as you can imagine. But I have found that the slowdown of the deck tends to require answers NOW. And Mangara requires an extra untap. This is annoying because obviously he is the stronger card. I would like very much to improve this, and I consider the next big advantage card for D+T to be something like a white Llanowar Elf or better yet, an Eldrazi Temple for white creatures or humans or something like that. With such a card, we could profitably include a variety of stronger turn 2 and 3 control cards because we would not be trying to control from behind.

On another note, I have an idea I have been kicking around. I want to make a simple chart that shows how highly we, the community value particular cards in a particular matchup. When completed, it should be a valuable tool for sideboarding decisions, and we may each learn some things. At the minimum, it should be fun for us. One thing, and this is important; if you are not actually experienced with a particular card/matchup, please do not post a number. Other comments are fine, but I will be tallying numbers for an average. The specific point of the exercise is to get some metrics. Conversation is the strong point of these threads, while real numbers are hard to come by. As soon as we get speculation, it is ruined. So again...

If you are not experienced with a particular card/matchup, do not post a number.

To participate, just give a number from 1-10, (ten being the best) for how "good" a card tends to be in a particular matchup. "Good" is a terribly subjective word, so think about these adjectives to help you formalize your opinion:

instrumental
effective
potent
useful
applicable
powerful
convenient
practical
serviceable

-or possibly even-

overtaking
game-changing
pwnage

...etc.

You may even be faced with situations like cards being excellent in matchups sometimes and nearly useless at others. Just do your best to aggregate these ideas into a number. Feel free to discuss the reasons for your rating, too. You may even decide to change your number after your peers have had a crack at your reasoning, but try not to be swayed by the conversation at large - only the conversation pertaining to your rating. The numbers are supposed to be complementary to the conversation, not be an extension of it.

So, without further ado, I will begin with an easy one:

Aether Vial vs. Miracles - 10
Aether Vial occasionally feels like a worse land when drawn late in any matchup, but landing that on turn one against Miracles basically pushes that game solidly in your favor like no other matchup. I have had Miracles hit it on turn 3 with Council's Judgement...typically when a player spends three mana on a sorcery for spot removal on something I have had for several turns already, I feel like it is one of those tiny victories that this deck thrives on. But Vial is so good in this matchup (and Judgment is their only answer), that I actually lament losing the vial that way. I will even happily take two of them.

[iatee]

A playable one mana white mana dork would be a complete break with the colorpie, someone would probably have to actually kill Maro. They don't even like giving green them anymore due to the effect it has on standard.

Another playable Sol land is also extremely unlikely. The most recent Sol lands (Eldrazi) were never meant to be fast early game mana, they were late game mana for casting your 10 drops - they only became fast mana accidentally. Sol lands (and fast mana in general) are horrible mistakes and Wizards knows not to make them anymore - the last time they purposely made a Sol land was what, 10 years ago? Most of the mistakes they make these days come from mana-replacement mechanics (Aether Vial, Phyrexian Mana, Delve) rather than giving us actual fast mana cards.

New cards for the deck that could actually get printed in the next few years are a RIP style bear and a better disenchant bear. Maybe another good Flicker effect on a creature.

[redtwister]

@BKclassic
Indeed, sweet list, nice meta call.

@Medea_
Prolly see you there this weekend. I am as combo-proofed as I can get and I expect a lot of the mirror early. Miracles is, well, Miracles. It will come down to skill vs. skill, but we are much better positioned than previously.

I am most worried about the various Eldrazi builds, especially the new Mono-W replacing Kavu with Skysovereign, Consul Flagship, since it passes right through Mom and is a much better beater (since it's ability target creature opponent controls, not any creature, each time it attacks, not just when it enters, and it can't die to Containment Priest, since it does not enter as a creature even if you blink it as a creature with Displacer. It literally is just a machine-gun. A 6/5, flying machine-gun.

[Finn]

Dunno if I was clear on my intention. I am seeking a rating by all of you, starting with Aether Vial vs. miracles.

EDIT: Iatee, Deathrite Shaman is an example of a mana creature for black. They may do it as a gimmick as a hybrid card like that. We have had this conversation a few times in the past about Imperial Recruiter for white. Some people felt it was outside the color pie. Forever is a long time. I can wait.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

10. I think that Vial is a little less important if you also play multiple Caverns, but end of their turning your creatures for quasi haste is pretty good.

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[Luca Grease]

Dunno if I was clear on my intention. I am seeking a rating by all of you, starting with Aether Vial vs. miracles.


Thanks, I was honestly a bit confused.

I think we should still establish a description of what each number represents - for some, a 10 will be a card that basically win the game single-handedly if unanswered (see Thalia vs Storm), others will be more generous with their ratings, assigning top marks to any card that should never be sided out in that particular matchup, and so on...

I'd suggest something like (on a 5-points scale cause I'm lazy):

5 - This card is an all-star in this match-up, you should NEVER side it out, and should bring in any additional copies you might have. You don't mind seeing it in multiples, either cause it stacks or because you are usually winning as long as one copy sticks/resolves.
4 - This card is very strong in the MU, and you probably shouldn't side out any copies. It will almost never be dead and it is unlikely to be neutered by sideboard hate that also hits a large portion of your deck.
3 - This card has its applications in the MU, but it requires certain conditions to be good. Post side, it might not match particularly well against their expected sideboarding plan, and should be considered as a side-out option.
2 - Although this card is not completely dead, it does very little, and matches up poorly against their general strategy. Its usefulness does not improve post-board, and should be sided out if possible.
1 - This card does nothing. You should have something to side in for this.

Obviously, this is only a rough draft, but hopefully it will give the general idea. If deemed necessary, we might expand the list with up to 10 ratings.

Anyway, Aether Vial against Miracles:10

Not much to add to what Finn said here. Everything about this card is good against Miracles: the uncounterability, the mana cheating (allowing you to use your lands to attack their mana), the instant speed deployment (for tricks and surprise attacks). They will try to get rid of it anyway they can, and it should speak volumes about the power of the card in this MU that most prominent Miracle pilots will dedicate most of their anti-DnT sideboard slots to cards that can deal with it.

[iatee]

Dunno if I was clear on my intention. I am seeking a rating by all of you, starting with Aether Vial vs. miracles.

EDIT: Iatee, Deathrite Shaman is an example of a mana creature for black. They may do it as a gimmick as a hybrid card like that. We have had this conversation a few times in the past about Imperial Recruiter for white. Some people felt it was outside the color pie. Forever is a long time. I can wait.

As an open ended creature tutor, Imperial Recruiter was out of the colorpie for *red* not for white. That's one of the reasons Imperial Recruiter was so powerful for a red deck like Painter. White has a lot of tutor effects on bodies, so this wasn't some radical new type of card, just a fairly pushed one.

DRS is a B/G manadork, but you can play it with a very light investment in green. That's one of the reasons why it's the most powerful 1 drop in legacy, single-handedly disrupted the format, and was ban-worthy in modern (the format Wizards care about more.) I don't think we can expect more Deathrite Shamans. The Modern banlist is a pretty good indicator for cards they don't want to make. If you're willing to splash green, Noble Hierarch is a very pushed manadork that produces white. Maybe one day they'll print a G/W dork that's more powerful than Noble Hierarch and doesn't actually require G, but...I would be willing to bet against it.

On the other hand, they'll reprint pretty much any artifact/enchantment we want as a 2/2. Think up some good ones and you'll get them eventually.

[Morzas]

Re: Deathrite Shaman being allowed to generate mana in Black. Because it generates mana utilizing resources in the graveyard, it's not a color pie break, but a very clever bend. If WotC could find a white way to justify mana generation, then it could work. The closest thing I can think of is Weathered Wayfarer.

In my local meta, I'm seeing a lot of Maverick and I don't know what to do. Sometimes it feels like they're just a stronger version of our deck. They have a lot of things that blow up equipment and vials. Which cards are strong against Maverick? How do I play this matchup? What do I board in?

[iatee]

Maverick is basically a worse version of DnT, not a better one. But you can get midranged-out by fair decks if you don't draw enough grindy fair cards.

Play lots of Mirran Crusaders, Revokers in main. More Removal/Disenchant/Needle effects out of the board. I don't love RiP since it doesn't completely shut down their deck and they have lots of disenchant effects anyway if they do need to get rid of it.

Board out all Thalias, especially Thalia 1.0, since they play Karakas, ramp, and are creature-based. Prelates aren't going to be amazing either, though Prelate on 2 stops a lot of their scariest cards post-board (Zealous, Decay.) Try to get them to use their removal and disenchant effects on the wrong things (e.g. Batterskull not Jitte) since they're guaranteed to be drawing into a certain number. They have at most one flyer in the deck, so Flickerwisps (and any other flyers you play) are essentially unblockable. Save your removal for KotR if possible.

Keep Sofi in even though the protections don't do anything, the games are grindy, you might need to Revoker Jitte and you want as many ways to grind out an advantage as possible.

Try to figure out if they're playing Dark Depths just so you don't lose to it out of nowhere. But the variant that does is probably a better matchup, since we have so many ways to interact with the combo and it means their manabase is worse.

[t3hmyth]

...Which cards are strong against Maverick? How do I play this matchup? What do I board in?

My ratings for the Maverick matchup would be as follows:


Aven Mindcensor is at least a 7 (or more) because it shuts down their main engine of Green's Sun Zenith
Phyrexian Revoker is at a 7 as well because it is a tutorable answer that can shut off Deathrite Shaman and Quasali Pridemage (or even the Noble Hierarch if you sense they're on that kind of build)
Postboard: Rest in Peace is a 6 because it hits Deathrite Shaman, Knight of the Reliquary, and--most importantly--their Life from the Loam
Postboard: Pithing Needle is a 5 because it can hit utility lands and the occasional active creature on their side

[Medea_]

@Finn

I'd rate Vial a 9/10 against Miracles. It is absolutely the card you want in your opening hand, especially if you are not playing Cavern of Souls. While it is a little weak in the end-game, you are fine having two of these in play as a way to largely invalidate Countertop lock. With Karakas and a Legendary creature, it becomes a very difficult obstacle to overcome. While Vial doesn't really end the game on its own (especially post-board), it is extremely strong.

[redtwister]

Aether Vial vs. Miracles 9/10
Only because if you don't have it in your opening hand or on the next turn, it is pretty bad to draw into. On the other hand, I am fine with 2 in my opening hand against Miracles.

[infiniteJ]

Re: Deathrite Shaman being allowed to generate mana in Black. Because it generates mana utilizing resources in the graveyard, it's not a color pie break, but a very clever bend. If WotC could find a white way to justify mana generation, then it could work. The closest thing I can think of is Weathered Wayfarer.

In my local meta, I'm seeing a lot of Maverick and I don't know what to do. Sometimes it feels like they're just a stronger version of our deck. They have a lot of things that blow up equipment and vials. Which cards are strong against Maverick? How do I play this matchup? What do I board in?

I know it's not that popular anymore, but maverick can't beat displacer + mom.

[AsmodeusDM]

So how many Prelates have people been running and how have they been performing for you?

I feel like I'm alone in that I feel like I want one on t3 in almost every game (save eldrazi and dnt mirrors); to that end I've been playing 3 and even sleeved up all 4 MD for one tournament.

I suppose I could get behind playing 2MD + 1 SB (for spell-based matchups).

I just feel like this card comes down and locks the game out for so many of my opponents; but it feels like the rest of you don't agree.

[redtwister]

@AsmodeusDM
Until I see a list win a large event (150+ people) or several Top 8 placements in similarly large events, I don't see anyone being able to claim that they have figured out anything like an optimal, tuned build using the new cards, so I think you should feel free to experiment with 3-4 MD if it feels like the right thing for you. My only question then is, what does your overall list look like? DnT is an increasingly tight deck and the list of optional cards feels narrow, but at the same time, extremely up for grabs, if that makes sense.

In other words, the number of cards that have been up for debate in terms of number in the MD are large and have included hitherto untouched staples:
Mom: 3 or 4
Stoneforge Mystic: 3 or 4
Flickerwisp: 3 or 4
Phyrexian Revoker: 2-4
Serra Avenger: 0-2
Mirran Crusader: 0-2
Mangara of Corondor: 0-1
Banisher Priest: 0-1
Spirit of the Labyrinth: 0-1
Thalia, Heretic Cathar: 0-3
Sanctum prelate: 0-4 (since you raised 4, although typically 0-3)
Recruiter of the Guard: 2-3

At the same time as there are all these decisions, there is the problem of how to fit stuff in where the following is pretty much set in stone:
Lands 23
Spells 11
Creatures 17
4 T,GoT
3 Mom
3 SFM
3 Flickerwisp
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Recruiter of the Guard

Technically we have 12 slots, but we have 12 cards and 20 copies looking to find a place. Honestly I feel like a lot of people are returning to Mom and SfM as automatic 4-ofs, as well, which would mean 19 creatures pre-given, leaving 10 open slots, 10 cards, but still 18 copies looking for a place to go.

All of this is being driven by re-thinking how the deck plays and wins, since the divide between slower and more controlling and more aggressive has never been sharper, with the new cards all falling in the 3-cmc slot.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I play a 2/1 split. I think its a great card, but 3 will be my maximum because it's not a very good beater and also because it's not very good in the mirror.

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[iatee]

AsmodeusDM, I've been playing 3 and it continues to be the card in my deck that wins me the most games and the card that I recruiter for the most often. Not great against two tier 1 decks (Dnt/Eldrazi) but it's so good against the rest of them - often wins the game on the spot - that I think not playing at least 3 in your 75 is nuts, and 4 in the 75 is definitely worth trying.

[Luca Grease]

I just feel like this card comes down and locks the game out for so many of my opponents; but it feels like the rest of you don't agree.

I think you are getting the wrong impression. Almost everyone agrees that Prelate is the shizzles against the majority of the field. It is, without a doubt, the new card on which there has been more consensus. The reason people are not running 4 is that 3-drop slots are so tight right now, with all options being so powerful in their own way, and folks would rather not have too many dead (or semi-dead) cards against a significant portion of the field. If you really, really wanna beat 70% of the field, go ahead and run the full playset, it will definitely improve those matchups. But people confident in their play skill generally prefer not polarizing their match-ups too much.

[Finn]

I think you are getting the wrong impression. Almost everyone agrees that Prelate is the shizzles against the majority of the field. It is, without a doubt, the new card on which there has been more consensus. The reason people are not running 4 is that 3-drop slots are so tight right now, with all options being so powerful in their own way, and folks would rather not have too many dead (or semi-dead) a significant portion of the field. If you really, really wanna beat 70% of the field, go ahead and run the full playset, it will definitely improve those matchups. But people confident in their play skill generally prefer not polarizing their match-ups too much.


It does seem strange that such an obviously strong card is not an instant 4-of. I agree. But, Luca is on the money here. It's a hedge because I really don't want to see two of these off the top of the deck against Elves, Eldrazi, Merfolk, D+T, etc. I can work with cards that have a less complete hold on the opponent. I can not work with a card that does nothing. The cards we are replacing the extra copies of Prelate with are going to do their job, whatever that may be. (You aren't drawing a blank text box in its place.) With that caveat, two or three is what that sort of card calls for.

Also, so far for Aether Vial versus Miracles I have 9.5.

[from Cairo]

I think you are getting the wrong impression. Almost everyone agrees that Prelate is the shizzles against the majority of the field. It is, without a doubt, the new card on which there has been more consensus. The reason people are not running 4 is that 3-drop slots are so tight right now, with all options being so powerful in their own way, and folks would rather not have too many dead (or semi-dead) cards against a significant portion of the field. If you really, really wanna beat 70% of the field, go ahead and run the full playset, it will definitely improve those matchups. But people confident in their play skill generally prefer not polarizing their match-ups too much.

It does seem strange that such an obviously strong card is not an instant 4-of. I agree. But, Luca is on the money here. It's a hedge because I really don't want to see two of these off the top of the deck against Elves, Eldrazi, Merfolk, D+T, etc. I can work with cards that have a less complete hold on the opponent. I can not work with a card that does nothing. The cards we are replacing the extra copies of Prelate with are going to do their job, whatever that may be. (You aren't drawing a blank text box in its place.) With that caveat, two or three is what that sort of card calls for.

Another important element that neither of you mentioned is that Prelate's high impact matches overlap largely with Thalia, Guardian of Thraben's. And Thalia is often more impactful and efficient. IE the shell Prelate is often hitting is the - Brainstorm, Ponder, fill in the blank 8-10 more cmc 1 cards. Thalia makes all of those spells half as efficient at making them cmc 2 and obviously has the added bonus of hitting cmc 0, 2, 3+ cards; on a Firststrike body, that costs a colored mana less, and is Karakas protected.

That may all go without saying, but I think the fact that Prelate is weaker and targeting a similar area to Thalia GoT is a big part of why we see supplemental numbers 1-3x copies rather than it being run as a 4x.

[Medea_]

I'll be writing an article about this at the beginning of next week, but here are some of my assorted thoughts on stuff I've seen/tested recently:

Aerial Responder was cute, but probably not good enough for the deck. It was worth testing, and it stays in my box of "when the metagame is right, there may be a time for you" cards. It's on a similar power level to Serra Avenger, though it fits in at the three drop slot, which is already a bit glutted as of late. When it came down, it was often a win-more card or could have been any generic beater and gotten the job done. It was, however, absolutely bonkers with equipment in a similar fashion to Mirran Crusader.

I'm on 3 Recruiter and 2 Prelate in the main. I really want to have a good number of Recruiters for the utter madness of Flickerwisp chains, which have been winning me tons of games. It almost doesn't matter what matchup it is; your opponents can just very quickly drown in 3/1 elementals. Many users here and on mtgs have been advocating two, but I'm really liking the full three; the deck plays out very smoothly. I also literally have no idea why people are trimming down to three Flickerwisp; that card has always been insane, and now we gave it a bunch of candy and set it loose on the world. I want to have two Prelates in the main, as in the matchups where it matters, a second Prelate is often a literal zero-outer situation.

I'm currently off THC, but that doesn't mean it is necessarily bad. I'm relatively neutral on the card. I think both Iatee and Finn have seen different, valid sides of THC. THC has an extremely high ceiling and low floor as a card. When your opponent is stumbling, THC often wins the game on the spot by offering several timewalks. Against a Delver deck, curving Thalia into THC is basically insurmountable. In a couple of specific matchups (e.g. Elves, Eldrazi), the card is noticeably better than our other options. When you are on the draw against an average deck, THC does feel a little slow and its impact is often minimal (though its body and legendary status is still nothing to sneeze at). I tried to stay on the fence for a long time by playing one as a tutor target, but it just isn't great when coming down on turn 4 off a vial or turn four after tutoring on turn three. If you play THC, commit to it and play 2-3 to maximize its impact. I'm also wary about some of the builds I've been seeing that skip on staples like Revoker or Stonforge to try to fit in multiple THC.

I have moved away from bullets in the main. Banisher Priest got bumped to the sideboard after I realized that I was usually just getting Flickerwisp or Prelate off Recruiter anyway. I still 100% want Banisher Priest in the 75 though, and I prefer it to Mangara.

I'm considering running 'geddons like the list that was posted here a few days ago. It does, however, seem slightly against the plan of getting a bunch of lands into play and chaining Recruiters into more stuff. In terms of mana usage, Gideon and Recruiter are obviously quite different, and Gideon plays better with the get ahead and 'geddon plan. I've got the card ride to Baltimore to figure out how I feel about that. I really like the idea of curving Prelate on 1 into 'geddon against a huge portion of the field. I might just default back to something safer with another Council's Judgment and the Gideons.

Serra Avenger needs to be in the deck. I really wanted to cut it to maximize the human/Cavern synergy and reduce the WW requirements of the deck, but I've just been pleasantly surprised by it at just about every turn. I might even sneak back up to three copies.

I apologize for typos here, I'm wiped but felt like I should post something.

[iatee]

So I did pretty poorly at EE5 (5-4), I punted two of the matches and lost the other two to normal variance. I played a Relic Warder, 3 Prelates, 3 Recruiters and Mangara main and 4 Path to Exile, 1 more Relic Warder, 1 THC, 1 Banisher Priest, 2 Mirran Crusader in the board, plus more normal stuff.

The 4 Path to Exile came in for 7/9 matches and 3 came in for the 8th (Jeskai Delver, perhaps a mistake) so I didn't regret playing 4 at all. My sideboard plan felt pretty good for the most part. I got an above average number of non-blue decks (6) but Prelate was still great against 2 of them (Lands, Painter). 2 Relic Warder 8 STP effects post-board vs DnT means it's pretty hard for them to keep a Mom alive or get anything equipped, and I think that makes up for playing such an anti-blue deck g1.

Eldrazi was the only t1 deck I really don't want to see and I saw it and lost to it twice. I thought my board was good and I don't think it's worse than a 50-50 matchup overall unless they're playing a ton of removal, but the games where they have really good hands give you very little room to outplay them so it feels worse because you rarely get that extra edge from being good at Magic. Even if it's not actually winning tournaments left and right, Eldrazi is really just terrible for the format. I'm not sure how much I need to discount my lose-to-Eldrazi-god-hand losses, since no matter how much you have for them, they're gonna get some of those wins, similar to a fast combo deck, their fast combo just takes a few turns to 'actually kill you' even though the game is over on t3. Also similar to fast combo, I think the person who wins the die roll immediately pushes up their EW% for the match by like 20%.

I regretted not having a Magus in the board, or even maybe in the main, but I don't know how to solve the mana problem. The new Oblivion Sower builds are especially hard to beat and probably best against us actually since the cast trigger gives them a bunch of really relevant DnT lands. I think I am going to try 2 Ghost Quarter in the sideboard, perhaps even one in the main as a 24th land, since this deck kinda wants 23.5 lands anyway. Prob going to go to the Baltimore Open in a few weeks and play something similar, but I want to come up with a more consistent wreck Eldrazi plan first.

R1 Painter (2-0)
G1 T1 Vial vs T1 Blood Moon that I don't care about. Prelate on 1 locks him out of relevant plays pretty quickly.
G2 Path his early Sulfur Elemental then Prelate on 1, Prelate on 4 (Fiery Confluence / any Planeswalker), Mangara his Bridge. I think Sulfur Elemental is ridiculously overrated by people who want to beat DnT and I think I am something like 15-1 in games where that card resolves. Unless they're called 'True Name Nemesis', creatures are the easiest card type for us to deal with, since we already have removal main.

R2 Miracles (1-2)
Unfortunately get paired right away with my friend with whom I playtested all day last Saturday, neither of us too thrilled to see have this as our m2. Even though the matchup is favorable overall, he's one of the better Miracles players around and the matchup is still only 50-50 post-board since I don't have any real haymakers just for Miracles. He gets a lot better post-board since he replaces his very dead Counterbalances with 2 Wear/Tear, 2 Mentor and a Koz Return. He also knows my exact 75 and after playing against it so much was gonna be far better prepared for it than anyone in that room.

G1 Have a nearly perfect hand on the play, Vial into very fast Prelate on 1+6.
G2 Have an okay double Cavern hand. Mom into Revoker, he Brainstorms in response and I correctly deduce he's putting a Terminus 2 deep, so I Prelate on 6 on t3, which forces him to Predict his own Terminus away. I'm feeling somewhat good at that point, but unfortunately he has double STP in hand for the Prelate, sets up another board wipe and then he Jaced I think?
G3 Have a pretty meh Karakas, Karakas, THC, Mom, SfM, Plains, Sofi hand. I think that's a keep, especially on the play, but it's rough. In theory I can set up a protected THC if I draw into lands and regardless I'm likely getting two equipment into play quickly with SfM, even if I miss a land drop. But if I don't draw lands I'm gonna fall behind pretty quickly, and in fact I didn't draw one for 3-4 turns. He Terminused my Sfm + Sofi + Batterskull + Mom board and cast Jace, I cast Flickerwisp on the Bskull, and he forced it, pretty much ending the game.

I wasn't willing to Lotus Petal the 2nd Karakas to play THC t3 since I wanted to play for the long game and a Terminus would essentially win on the spot. It turned out that would have been a better play given what was in his hand (something like EE, blue cards, Jace, FoW?) so he would have had to Force it, but I think it is generally probably a pretty desperate play to Lotus Petal a 3 drop if it's going to be better late. Drawing into a Cavern woulda been nice.

Anyway he ended up not dropping a match and then winning the tournament so we didn't get home til 3:30 am.

R3 Eldrazi (1-2)
G1 Win with a Vial + 3 Wasteland start. He was kinda salty but I think Eldrazi players t1 Chalicing left and right and then complaining about Wasteland should be some sort of game rule violation and they should be kicked out of the tournament immediately.
G2 Just get overrun, multiple TKSs.
G3 Long grindy game where his 2/2 Endless one holds back my Relic Warder (Jitte) and Banisher Priest (Smasher) for a long time, while I can only get in chip shots with Thalia. I punt the game at the end, have Recruiter and 2 Vials on 3, he Oblivion Sowers me and I fetch Mangara (because I have Karakas, but forgetting he has a Wasteland tucked among his million lands) instead of fetching Flickerwisp. I would most likely have been able to beat him with a Flickerwisp army - which was my original plan anyway, before I got into the 'oh crap I have to deal with his 5/8' mentality. I actually didn't have to deal with it and could outrace it - I just wasn't focused.

R4 DnT (2-0)
G1/g2 I don't remember the details but the games weren't very close. There was one turn he missed a Port activation that really cost him.

R5 Grixis Delver (2-0)
G1 Mull to 5 but get a Jitte online and win
G2 8 STP effects, he never gets a threat online

R6 Eldrazi (0-2)
G1 Can't come back from Chalice on 1, TKS, even after resolving Vial through Chalice.
G2 Draw into 3 Vials while his opening is Mimic, TKS taking SfM (which I Path), Reality Smasher and 2 huge Endless Ones. I have a bunch of Flickerwisps which should really good against Endless Ones, but instead they're just keeping me alive by Flickering the Reality Smasher and chumping. If he had his same hand minus the Mimic and I drew into a Recruiter or another relevant creature early, I probably coulda won.

R7 DNT (2-1)
G1 I have my maindeck Relic Warder in my opening hand to eat a Vial, which is especially a blowout g1.
G2 Grindy game, eventually he gets enough flyers.
G3 Even grindier game, we go to time but he's willing to scoop since I'm ahead. I would probably win in a few turns.

R8 Lands (2-0)
G1 Prelate on 2, have Flickerwisp for his 20/20. Tabernacle makes the game take a little longer than it would otherwise, but it wasn't close
G2 Have Relic Warder + Revoker for his Vortex, Recruiter for Faerie Macabre to eat a Fire+Loam.

R9 Jeskai Delver (1-2)
G1 I get pretty lucky that his Delver doesn't flip for a million turns in a row and that I have Revoker for his early Lavamancer.
G2 TNN into Jitte equip
G3 T1 Vial and Path his early Delver, having seen 0 basics in the first 2 games, but he has one and I get kinda punished tempo-wise. He equips a Delver with a Jitte and hits me once, but I have 2 Flickerwisps to play around with plus a Recruiter to get one more. Eventually I get him down to 2 before he plays Batterskull + TNN. I keep him off enough mana to equip it, but he pulls ahead on life anyway. I think there were a lot of little things in the game I could have done differently to win. Had a lot of turns to topdeck a relevant creature (Recruiter/SfM/etc.) while I had a Prelate on 1 shutting him off most of his draws, but didn't get anything.

[redtwister]

@iatee
Thanks, as always, for the detailed report. Also, congratulations to your friend!

Did you run a starting 60 that you already posted?
Aside from Magus of the Moon somewhere in the build and maybe a Ghost Quarter, anything you really want to refine?

[iatee]

Yeah, the main was the one I posted last week with Mangara replacing Banisher Priest and Relic replacing a Revoker.

SB was:
4 Path
2 Rest in Peace
Relic Warder
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Ethersworn
Faerie Macabre
Banisher Priest
THC
Containment Priest

I would be curious to see how a list with a GQ replacing a spell (or maybe a Port) plus a board like this would play:

3 Path
3 Ghost Quarter
2 Rest in Peace
Relic Warder
1 Mirran Crusader
2 Ethersworn
Faerie Macabre
Banisher Priest
Containment Priest

GQ helps in a lot of the 'where is my Magus' matchups like Eldrazi and 12-Post. Vs Miracles you could actually cut them off white, though I'm not sure how exactly you'd want to board / how many lands and which you'd be keeping. Overall, I think GQ and Path are both very good and underplayed (though it seems like Lands people are already coming on board with GQ) cards in the format, given how tight everyone's mana is. The other option is going harder on Armageddon/Cataclysm. Ultimately some form of hardcore miserable Pox-style land destruction seems like a pretty good strategy if the 2 best decks in the format lose to it.

[Finn]

Good post. The analysis makes tournament reports so much more helpful to the rest of us. Also, I have jerked around with the idea of Ghost Quarter myself from time to time. There is a nifty trick you can pull off hitting your own Flagstones if you can't get two white mana for Flickerwisp or something. But in general, it seems like a possible card to hose players who fetch their one basic. I have been wanting to try it.

[RobNC]

What do you typically side out when you're bringing in all 4 Paths?

[iatee]

Generally Thalia since you're casting more spells yourself and don't really need to tempo them out with the Thorn effect - they're going to be losing tempo by playing everything relevant they find into a stream of one mana removal. You can also be more reckless with using them - make them have the Daze, since you have more coming anyway. Every post-board match vs Grixis Delver that I've played with 8 STPs has been a crazy blowout, feels like I'm playing with a cheat code.

Vs. Lands you swap STPs for them, which also feels great, massive upgrade.

[AsmodeusDM]

4 PtE seems brutally overkill but with us having such a bad G1 vs Eldrazi... I can see going up from the 1 I currently have in my sideboard...

I just hate giving up creature silver bullets in my s/b slots when I'm running 3 recruiters :(

[Secretly.A.Bee]

2 was AFAIK the number that has been most popular for the amount of PtE in the sb. Maybe start there and play a Banisher Priest for another tutorable answer in the slot?

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[Medea_]

Okay, here (http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?p=579) are my latest thoughts on deck configuration and exploration.

[LeoCop 90]

Since in the last part of your article you mention the possibility of playing additional one drops to smooth out the deck, that is becoming a bit clunky due to many 3 drops, i wonder if the new dwarf from kaladesh (Toolcraft Exemplar) could be played with ancient den in the manabase. The artifacts requirements would be satisfied (4 ancient den, 4 vial, 2/3 revoker, jitte) and it could be a good way to put pressure acting as a tempo deck.

I'm not saying it is good, but since you mention playing things like judge's familiar, weathered wayfarer, land tax and so on, i think also the dwarf could be worth exploring.

[contra]

Since in the last part of your article you mention the possibility of playing additional one drops to smooth out the deck, that is becoming a bit clunky due to many 3 drops, i wonder if the new dwarf from kaladesh (Toolcraft Exemplar) could be played with ancient den in the manabase. The artifacts requirements would be satisfied (4 ancient den, 4 vial, 2/3 revoker, jitte) and it could be a good way to put pressure acting as a tempo deck.

I'm not saying it is good, but since you mention playing things like judge's familiar, weathered wayfarer, land tax and so on, i think also the dwarf could be worth exploring.


How about Vault Skirge as the additional 1 drop? Flying, Lifelink, gets past chalice, holds equipment nicely.

On another note I've been having a really hard time fighting eldrazi, so much so that I've added a moat as a tutor target in my sideboard. Inevitably though they still seem to run me over more often than not. How do you all fight eldrazi?? I've considered Serene Master but it's a huge downside that it's hit by Warping Wail

Anyway here is my deck - I'm on the 2/2/2 Prelate/THC/Recruiter. I'm thinking about dropping THC all together since it's been pretty meh for me, but on paper it seems like it'd be so good against eldrazi. Maybe Elbrus, the Binding Blade would be some spicy tech.... The singleton COP:Red in my sideboard has turned my abysmal burn matchup to an as-of-yet undefeated matchup, and I know there must be a similar silver bullet for the eldrazi menace.


4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
3 Cavern of Souls
9 Plains

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

4 Mother of Runes
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Recruiter of the Guard
3 Flickerwisp
2 Sanctum Prelate
2 Serra Avenger
1 Banisher Priest
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar

Sideboard
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Council's Judgment
1 Circle of Protection: Red
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Rest in Peace
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Sword of War and Peace
2 Path to Exile
1 Moat

[Medea_]

I did a podcast with Zachary Koch of MtG Training Grounds on Aether Vial. There's a ton of good D&T information sprinkled throughout, though the episode isn't specifically about D&T. You can find both the versions with and without video here (http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?p=588).

[iatee]

Interesting DnT list in the t8 of Euro Eternal Weekend. Double Magus in the board, none main.


5th place : Alexandre Dudziak - Death and Taxes

4 Wasteland
2 Karakas
3 Rishadan Port
3 Cavern of Souls
2 Plateau
8 Plains
4 Mother of Runes
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Flickerwisp
3 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Banisher Priest
2 Serra Avenger
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Mirran Crusader
2 Sanctum Prelate
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Aven Mindcensor


Sideboard
1 Sword of War and Peace
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Council's Judgment
2 Path to Exile
1 Containment Priest
2 Rest in Peace
2 Magus of the Moon
1 Leonin Relic-Warden
1 Pithing Needle
2 Ethersworn Canonist

[AsmodeusDM]

I don't think I'm a fan

Plateaus in the main to randomly support 2 magus in the side?

Cutting SoFaI?

Cutting a port and a land in general? Yet plays a ton of 3 drops...

Mindcensor? It was always an okay card; but another "meh" 3 drop is what we probalby need to avoid...



I'm being overly critical of course; solid result. And I can't argue with the core 70 or so cards... 3/2 split of recruiters/prelates continues to put up results.

[Misterjuzam]

Hi, I'm Arnaud Aubert. I finished 3rd at Bom Paris and went to the Eternal Week-end yesterday.

24th with the following decklist :

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
1 cavern of Souls
1 Mishra's factory
10 Plains

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

3 Mother of Runes
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Recruiter of the Guard
3 Flickerwisp
2 Sanctum Prelate
2 Serra Avenger
1 Banisher Priest
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar

Sideboard
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Pithing Needle
2 Council's judgment
2 surgical extraction
2 Rest in Peace
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Sword of War and Peace
2 Path to Exile
1 Containment Priest

Round 1 - Omnishow (1-2)
0-1
On G3, lost to a resolved Emrakul with Show and Tell. No Karakas, I scooped.

Round 2 - Eldrazy black (1-2)
0-2
Never played Eldrazi before. On G3, lost to All is Dust as I was going lethal next turn.

Round 3 - Omnishow (2-1)
1-2

Round 4 - Eldrazi black (2-0)
2-2

Round 5 - Deathblade (2-0)
3-2

Round 6 - Infect (2-1)
4-2

Round 7 - Infect (2-1)
5-2

Round 8 - Infect (2-0)
6-2

Round 9 - Shardless Bug (2-0)
7-2

3 recruiters / 2 prelates seem to be the right numbers. Thc was really a blast to play and I never missed the 4th flickerwisp.
Also played that list on last Friday's trial, went 4-2 beating Merfolk, Painter, GrixisDelver, Ant and losing to Nic fit and Shardless Bug.
Never thought to switch to another decklist or deck, as all my losses were pretty close or I played against some decks for the 1st time : Nic fit, Eldrazi.

[Medea_]

@Misterjuzam
Congrats on your finish.

I got 3rd/4th at an IQ yesterday running the same 75 I ran at EE. Deck feels great. I'm very happy with the Avengers back in the main, and I don't really miss THC.

[Colin]

Interesting DnT list in the t8 of Euro Eternal Weekend. Double Magus in the board, none main.


5th place : Alexandre Dudziak - Death and Taxes

4 Wasteland
2 Karakas
3 Rishadan Port
3 Cavern of Souls
2 Plateau
8 Plains
4 Mother of Runes
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Flickerwisp
3 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Banisher Priest
2 Serra Avenger
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Mirran Crusader
2 Sanctum Prelate
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Aven Mindcensor


Sideboard
1 Sword of War and Peace
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Council's Judgment
2 Path to Exile
1 Containment Priest
2 Rest in Peace
2 Magus of the Moon
1 Leonin Relic-Warden
1 Pithing Needle
2 Ethersworn Canonist

https://www.twitch.tv/bazaar_of_moxen/v/96437952

Coverage randomly at ~728 and ~828 that ive seen so far

edit: top 8 match at 1023 <--all this is ends up being is all-in reanimator hitting turn 1 chancelor, turn 2 elesh norn

[Finn]

Alexandre's Win-and-In match against Miracles was fun to watch. The commentators did not really ever realize why he was withholding his resources. Just a couple of threats at a time. No rush. The opponent was able to deal with some of the threats, including that big sweep with Engineered Explosives. But you will notice that Miracles was never able to clean him out because (a) he did not over-extend and (b) he kept Miracles from getting piles of mana. To an opponent facing this tactic it just looks like you can't seem to get your deck going. You can not just expect the deck to do its thing and the wins come rolling in. Alexandre was consciously exerting control over the environment with the decisions he made, and that is what allows your overt disruption to matter. That is, without that larger strategy stuff like Thalia, Prelate, Revoker, etc. often don't have enough impact. Anyone who does not feel confident facing Miracles with this deck, just have a look at the sublime performance Alexandre puts on here.

[KasumiFox]

Alexandre's Win-and-In match against Miracles was fun to watch. The commentators did not really ever realize why he was withholding his resources. Just a couple of threats at a time. No rush. The opponent was able to deal with some of the threats, including that big sweep with Engineered Explosives. But you will notice that Miracles was never able to clean him out because (a) he did not over-extend and (b) he kept Miracles from getting piles of mana. To an opponent facing this tactic it just looks like you can't seem to get your deck going. You can not just expect the deck to do its thing and the wins come rolling in. Alexandre was consciously exerting control over the environment with the decisions he made, and that is what allows your overt disruption to matter. That is, without that larger strategy stuff like Thalia, Prelate, Revoker, etc. often don't have enough impact. Anyone who does not feel confident facing Miracles with this deck, just have a look at the sublime performance Alexandre puts on here.

Actually he was trying to use the correct line but I don't think it was sublime at all. His opponent was mana screwed and yet he was playing around terminus with no need (specially the turns he played mother of runes). Could respond the snapcaster's trigger with thalia and many other technical mistakes. ONE thalia is not 'a couple of threaths at a time', btw haha.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I think his performance was worse than what Finn is suggesting, but Kasumi Fox, I feel as though you are being overly critical. It was his win and in, and playing perfect magic round after round becomes all but impossible. I think he did a good job. Not perfect, but he had a game plan and he stuck with it.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[mykatdied]

Actually he was trying to use the correct line but I don't think it was sublime at all. His opponent was mana screwed and yet he was playing around terminus with no need (specially the turns he played mother of runes). Could respond the snapcaster's trigger with thalia and many other technical mistakes. ONE thalia is not 'a couple of threaths at a time', btw haha.

If there is anything that miracles does well; it finds answers. Playing around terminus is 100% correct. It is those moments when you don't play around it and get punished that

[Luca Grease]

Yes, beating Miracles is the best feeling ever. However, I'd be cautious before pinning that match as some sort of guide on how to beat Miracles for the DnT player. Alexandre played well, and there are some non-obvious lessons to be learned from watching the replay (Jitte should probably be left in against mentor Miracles unless you are playing SoWaP in the side, and tapping fetchlands instead of basics/duals in the early turns might be worth it when you're not scared of any big plays).
However, the Miracles player made a few obvious mistakes, like forgetting about Mindcensor, and letting himself get wastelanded out of blue mana by fetching plains -> mountain when low on lands, etc. In g2 especially, those poor choices combined with a dangerously land light, topless hand, and a nearly perfect Vial + Port + Thalia + Karakas start on the DnT side to turn the game into a swift battering. But that's the equivalent of your opponent coming in slightly overweight, then slipping on the canvas and tumbling face-first into your fist in a boxing match. If you count on that happening every time, you're in for a rough awakening...

There are plenty of better replays out there that show DnT thoroughly embarrassing premium Miracle players, and most of those who've been playing this deck with dedication for a while will probably have their own stories to share.
Only yesterday I 2-0'ed an opponent on Cockatrice after a g2 in which he got to play 6 plows, 3 Terminus, 2 Council's Judgement, 1 Wear/Tear, 2 Jaces, 1 Entreat the Angels, 3 Mentors and 4 Snapcaster Mages (due to Terminus shuffling his own creatures back in the deck), a Vendillion Clique, and, finally, an Izzet Staticaster. There were probably another Terminus and another Wear/Tear left in his deck when I won, but apart from those, he literally threw everything his 75 had to offer at me, and still lost. As you can imagine, a blow-by-blow description of that match is out of the question, but the most memorable moment was probably countering his huge, blowout Entreat during my attack phase with Warping Wail, killing his Jace with a Recruiter of the Guard in the process. I don't think I had ever seen anyone go that quickly from absolute confidence to unmitigated disaster before in a game of Magic. Honorable mention to THC slowing his Izzet Staticaster just enough to allow Mother of Runes to push lethal through an army of monk tokens.

And yet, on Sunday I got destroyed by a very similar list, after my opponent chained turn 3 Terminus (saw it coming, and didn't lose anything of value) into turn 4 Plow ("I can do this all day") into turn 5 Entreat during my attack step ("ouch, but I've got the tools to deal with it"), into turn 6 Mentor (crap, just used my plow on an Angel token, but hey, this Prelate I recruited earlier set on 1 will mostly neutralize it, and if he wants to Terminus his board away away I'm more than happy), into turn 7 Jace -> bounce your Prelate, chain double top for the win ("fuck this"). In g2, I (maybe mistakenly) kept a somewhat slow hand with only two lands and lots of 3 drops (no vial), and got punished by turn 3 Staticaster into Turn 4 Jace. Sure, my opponent drew the absolute nuts in game 1, but that is more common than you'd think in a deck playing so much manipulation.

There's a reason why Miracles is by far and away the best deck in legacy, and that is because even its "bad" matchups (and, at this point, we probably fit the description) aren't really that bad.
In our case, their most problematic aspect is the speed with which they can switch roles from a purely reactive, "draw-go" control deck into a proactive "kill you in 2-3 turns" one. Running them out of removal by administering our resources and forcing awkward or less-than ideal plows and termini is all fine and dandy and will probably win the long game, but only as long as they don't find their early Entreat. Or Jace. Or Mentor + FoW. Then you'll look silly with your grip full of creatures that you won't be able to deploy in time to prevent his advantage from snowballing into a victory. In these games, it doesn't matter if their Terminus isn't a 3-for-1, or if their Plow is actually card disadvantage because you're just bouncing your equipped Thalia back to your hand. They only need them to buy enough time to set up their big, proactive play.

The ideal scenario for us is that in which we can both make their removal ineffective AND, as you put it, "prevent them from getting piles of mana". But that is usually only possible with the Vial, Thalia, Karakas, Port, Prelate draws, as in the Alexandre game. But you can't expect to have that every time, or even most of the times (especially considering they have plenty of ways to deal with Vial post-board). Most of the times, you will have to take a risk. Either pace yourself, and risk them pulling ahead on board in a way that is difficult for you to come back from, or turn up the pressure and expose yourself to Terminus. I am starting to think that the second option might be the correct one more often than a lot of people think...

[Finn]

Actually he was trying to use the correct line but I don't think it was sublime at all. His opponent was mana screwed and yet he was playing around terminus with no need (specially the turns he played mother of runes). Could respond the snapcaster's trigger with thalia and many other technical mistakes. ONE thalia is not 'a couple of threaths at a time', btw haha.

Oh boy. Are you really parsing my words like that? How about this: "He had one creature at times, two at others, and three on one occasion." Will that do? Was it really necessary for me to clarify that?

Yes he could have responded to the Snapcaster's trigger. He let the Mother of Runes die, apparently knowing he had another in hand. When the opponent's lands were tapped and no land was played for the turn he was able to safely deploy the much more important Thalia again and then untap Karakas. Conservative actions, yes, and perhaps unintuitive. But it was the right play because the game was his to lose, and he was taking no chances. That's how you make top 8 at a large event.

[iatee]

The more clear-cut mistake was tapping his Karakas to Port when he had an untapped Plains and Thalia on board. That seemed like just a mental lapse, unless he had another Thalia in hand and was baiting.

[Finn]

The more clear-cut mistake was tapping his Karakas to Port when he had an untapped Plains and Thalia on board. That seemed like just a mental lapse, unless he had another Thalia in hand and was baiting. Oh yes. That is definitely true.

[KasumiFox]

Oh boy. Are you really parsing my words like that? How about this: "He had one creature at times, two at others, and three on one occasion." Will that do? Was it really necessary for me to clarify that?

Yes he could have responded to the Snapcaster's trigger. He let the Mother of Runes die, apparently knowing he had another in hand. When the opponent's lands were tapped and no land was played for the turn he was able to safely deploy the much more important Thalia again and then untap Karakas. Conservative actions, yes, and perhaps unintuitive. But it was the right play because the game was his to lose, and he was taking no chances. That's how you make top 8 at a large event.


I wasn't misreading your post. I was saying it was not like you said. It's different.
While your opponent is mana screwed you should never try to end the game with JUST 2 damage a turn (and 6 cards in hand). My opinion is that either he should deploy another 2 drop or even put the vial on 3 to set a 3-turn clock.

You said that he was brilliant. I say that he was scared and this fear could lead his opponent out of that mana screw situation. That game was only Alexander's because the miracles guy fetch'd a useless mountain and never hit the 4th land drop (also had counterspells that are pretty useless as well). A 10-turn clock with only 1 port is never gonna be the right play.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I got to play 3 rounds of legacy last night, no top 8, just a little practice to help strengthen legacy in our area.

I played against shardless, burn, and colorless eldrazi, and afterwards I played against an infect list. I 2-0'ed the burn player and 2-1'ed everything else.

I love my deck!

[polski]

I got to play 3 rounds of legacy last night, no top 8, just a little practice to help strengthen legacy in our area.

I played against shardless, burn, and colorless eldrazi, and afterwards I played against an infect list. I 2-0'ed the burn player and 2-1'ed everything else.

I love my deck!

Can you share your list please?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Sure:

3 MoR
3 Revoker
3 SFM
4 TGT
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Mangara
2 Prelate
3 Recruiter OTG
3 Flickerwisp

1 Jitte
1 SoFI
1 Batterskull
4 Vial
4 StP
2 Mox Diamond

4 wasteland
4 port
3 Cavern
3 Karakas
2 Flagstones
1 Canopy
6 Plains

61 cards.

Sb:
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
2 THC
1 Magus of the Moon
2 PtE
2 CJ
3 RIP
1 Fiendslayer Paladin
2 Canonist
1 Prelate

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[FeX]

how has mox diamond been working out for you? do you think it was worth it so far?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

So far so good, I guess. I just started playing this deck so I don't have a lot to compare it to.

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[contra]

Hey I had posted previously asking if anyone had any advice for beating eldrazi - Is it just a poor match-up? I'd really appreciate any advice on how to beat them - It's just so hard when they curve into mimic - TKS - smasher, I just can't seem to beat them. Thanks in advance.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I play 2x THC in the board, and this IMHO is one of her best matchups. Wasteland is great, and I have 2 PtE in my sideboard along with 2 CJ and a Banisher Priest. I'm pretty sure it's correct to board out Mom here, maybe more questionable if you see Dismember game 1, but even then maybe it's fine. Flickerwisping TKS, Chalice, or large Endless One is pretty good, especially if there's a way to get some damage in that turn as well when you target TKS, because sometimes that swing plus the added 3 power of flying the next turn allows you to race them. Remember combat tricks like blocking with Thalia and then Karakasing it back. Batterskull helps stabilize. I find Jitte to be close to terrible, but I don't have enough experience to say that I'm right. If Eldrazi becomes more dominant locally, I'll test out a singleton Crackdown in the board.

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[Luca Grease]

I find Jitte to be close to terrible, but I don't have enough experience to say that I'm right.

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You're wrong :P

Jitte is actually pretty good against Eldrazi, it will swat mimics like flies and quickly let even your smallest creatures outclass their large monsters.
Moms should be sided out for this MUs, along with as many Thalias as possible. The first strike is good but the rules text is probably a net negative considering you're bringing in most of your noncreature sideboard spells.

[iatee]

Yeah, Jitte is great, it's cheap so you can hardcast it quickly and all of the modes are relevant.

Prelates are also bad. Thalia 1.0 is okay as an early blocker / good equipment target, so I don't mind having >0 - I think the real reason to sb her out is that you don't want the card disadvantage of drawing multiples when it isn't even that great to begin with.

The thing I realized about Eldrazi is that it's sometimes comparable to playing against t1 combo - they have some essentially unbeatable draws and when you lose to those you just have to suck it up and accept that we've agreed to play a format where your opponent can put 20 sol lands in their deck. The key is winning the games that you can win - and there are plenty. I think the matchup is 50-50 if you respect Eldrazi with your sideboard. Since many of the games you lose are out of your control so when you lose to Mimic->TKS->Smasher it feels worse than a 50-50 matchup - you don't get the chance to play yourself out of that situation, even if your opponent is terrible.

On the other hand, Eldrazi generally gives up some free wins to its opponent when it has clunky draws.

I think putting one Crackdown or whatever in your board probably does less than you'd want it to because there's a 40% chance they have turn 2 TKS to take it anyway - and that's if you even happen to have it. If you are on an E tutor plan, your sideboard tech is now soft to Chalice. So I think you just want a bunch of generally good cards - fast removal, more land destruction, bigger creatures, Banisher Priests, Relic Warders to eat Chalices/Jittes etc. rather than some silver bullet. That said, Magus is a pretty good silver bullet.

[Fry]

I honestly bring in my Ethersworn Canonists in from the board against Eldrazi, I know that seems weird, but it relegates the threats to 1 per turn, and that can be huge, I have also put in 2 Path to Exile to help with the number of critters they have. I also play Magus of the Moon main in my Imperial Taxes list as a 3 of, so that really helps too.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Yeah, Jitte is great, it's cheap so you can hardcast it quickly and all of the modes are relevant.

Prelates are also bad. Thalia 1.0 is okay as an early blocker / good equipment target, so I don't mind having >0 - I think the real reason to sb her out is that you don't want the card disadvantage of drawing multiples when it isn't even that great to begin with.

The thing I realized about Eldrazi is that it's sometimes comparable to playing against t1 combo - they have some essentially unbeatable draws and when you lose to those you just have to suck it up and accept that we've agreed to play a format where your opponent can put 20 sol lands in their deck. The key is winning the games that you can win - and there are plenty. I think the matchup is 50-50 if you respect Eldrazi with your sideboard. Since many of the games you lose are out of your control so when you lose to Mimic->TKS->Smasher it feels worse than a 50-50 matchup - you don't get the chance to play yourself out of that situation, even if your opponent is terrible.

On the other hand, Eldrazi generally gives up some free wins to its opponent when it has clunky draws.

I think putting one Crackdown or whatever in your board probably does less than you'd want it to because there's a 40% chance they have turn 2 TKS to take it anyway - and that's if you even happen to have it. If you are on an E tutor plan, your sideboard tech is now soft to Chalice. So I think you just want a bunch of generally good cards - fast removal, more land destruction, bigger creatures, Banisher Priests, Relic Warders to eat Chalices/Jittes etc. rather than some silver bullet. That said, Magus is a pretty good silver bullet.

Maybe I got my Jitte too late, then. You have to keep in mind that I play 2x Mox Diamond, which makes statements like a turn 2 TKS taking away a Crackdown less true. Turn 1 Thalia and turn 2 thalia 2.0's was the initial reason for playing them, but it turns out that it's also a great way to play around Daze also, and/or play those 3-drops sooner when they are more likely to be relevant longer.

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[AsmodeusDM]

Yeah there was a lot of discussion on these boards when the glut of 3-drops started pooring about playing Chrome Mox or other fast-mana sources to accelerate the 3 drops (especially THC).

The concern is the card disadvantage something like chrome mox or mox diamond entails... in a white deck with no (easy) card draw.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Yeah there was a lot of discussion on these boards when the glut of 3-drops started pooring about playing Chrome Mox or other fast-mana sources to accelerate the 3 drops (especially THC).

The concern is the card disadvantage something like chrome mox or mox diamond entails... in a white deck with no (easy) card draw.
I think Chrome Mox is a terrible idea, but Diamond has been solid for me so far as I can tell. Turning a mana denial land into a colored source, pitching an extra Karakas to make that necessary 3rd land drop that produces your 2nd white mana, even tossing a Plains to play around an expected Massacre. I watched that discussion pretty hard, and only saw mox diamond mentioned in passing once, but I loved the idea and so far it's been strong for me. I would encourage others to at least see what it offers. I play 2, I've heard one other person say they play a singleton to good results.

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[iatee]

Mox Diamond is definitely better than Chrome Mox, which is only playable in turn 1 combo. But the decks that play Mox Diamond have Loams to recoup the card disadvantage.

Playing the card just ups the variance in the deck. Turn 1 Thalia is fun and if your local meta is filled with fast combo it might be worth it. But over a longer tournament, playing cards like Mox Diamond is going to come to haunt you. As a topdeck it is essentially the same as skipping your draw step. And it's not a terrible topdeck against some people - it's a terrible topdeck against 100% of the field. And you will topdeck it, because DnT doesn't win quickly.

I think if you want to play that game, play White Eldrazi. Control decks don't voluntarily give away card advantage unless they absolutely have to.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

So far it's been fine. If and when it becomes an issue, I'll revisit the topic.

If anyone has actually put some time in with the card, lmk your list and how you have been doing with it. Thanks.

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[Finn]

I think Chrome Mox is a terrible ideaWhy? Let's hear the reasons. It is not random Brainstorming of ideas at work here.

There are more creature legends to avoid doubling up on than lands. Karakas, the only land legend we care about can be used in a sense while the second Thalia is generally useless. The math of Chrome Mox makes more sense in this deck than Mox Diamond because it is a simple matter to count it as a Plains while Mox Diamond takes up a spell slot. The fact that we now have some actual card advantage, the loss of a spell can be largely mitigated while the land can never be got back.

I played with 2 Chrome Mox long enough to see the advantages and the down sides. The card performed fine and is rather difficult to manage properly. It needs more testing of the number crunching kind, and I am not in a position to invest that kind of time.

I can say without reservation that Mox Diamond is a dead end while Chrome Mox is a possibility. This post was written in a hurry, so I am sorry if it is somewhat unrefined.

[iatee]

We're not a stompy deck that has a consistent 'play hard lockpieces ASAP and beatdown' plan. If you play enough lockpieces and sol lands then you can justify the pure card disadvantage of Chrome Mox. T1 Blood Moon/Chalice/Suppression Field can just win the game on the spot. I forgot about those decks when I said Chrome Mox is only playable in combo, but stompy decks are close to being t1 combo decks anyway, it's just their combo win is 'cast Blood Moon / Chalice on turn 1, opponent can't play magic.' When they don't play that exact game, the decks perform poorly. (Except for Eldrazi, which has a pretty good backup plan of t2 TKS, t3 Reality Smasher etc.)

Anyway - we actually care about card disadvantage. A lot. Vs. fair decks we play long grindy games with tons of 1 for 1ing. We have a better long game than most of the format because we play SfM and equipment, and you can't make it to the late game if you run out of cards after a few turns.

You don't love seeing 2 Thalias in your opening hand but 1st Thalia gets countered or eventually dies vs most interactive decks. And "We have pure card advantage via Recruiter so we can now play card disadvantage" doesn't add up, it just means we gives away something that made the deck better.

If they ever printed a white spirit guide, it might be interesting as a one of, topdecking a vanilla 2/2 isn't nothing in an equipment deck. I think the chances that they print any more fast mana is very low though. But topdecking a Mox Diamond or Chrome Mox is always, always going to just be 'skip your draw step' for us.

[iatee]

In other news, 3 DnT in the t8 at Eternal Weekend.

2nd - Macenzie Doyle

DECK
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Flickerwisp
2 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Mangara of Crondor
2 Serra Avenger
4 Aether Vial
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Batterskull
10 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Cavern of Souls

SIDEBOARD
2 Containment Priest
2 Council’s Judgement
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Rest in Peace
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Cataclysm
1 Pithing Needle
1 Path to Exile
1 Wilt-Leaf Liege
1 Giden, Ally of Zendikar

4th - Pengyu Chen

DECK
9 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Cavern of Souls
3 Karakas
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Aether Vial
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Flickerwisp
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Serra Avenger
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Recruiter of the Guard
3 Mother of Runes
2 Sanctum Prelate

SIDEBOARD
1 Council's Judgment
1 Manriki Gusari
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Seal of Cleansing
2 Containment Priest
2 Rest in Peace
1 Sword of the Light and Shadow
2 Cataclysm
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar




5th - David Bauman

DECK
4 Sword to Plowshares
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Banisher Priest
2 Sanctum Prelate
2 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Serra Avenger
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Mother of Runes
4 Flickerwisp
4 Aether Vial
9 Plains
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas

SIDEBOARD
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Council’s Judgement
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Cataclysm
1 Veteran Armorer
2 Rest in Peace
2 Path to Exile
1 Containment Priest
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Pithing Needle
1 Disenchant

[BearsandSquires]

Easiest top 8, 8-0-2 at eternal weekend

[Curby]

There are more creature legends to avoid doubling up on than lands. Karakas, the only land legend we care about can be used in a sense while the second Thalia is generally useless.

I wouldn't count on doubling up to happen very much. Of course we think it happens a lot because it's often annoying, so those instances stick out in our mind. The math says that if you run 4 Thalias, you'll need to go 9 turns before you get a 25% chance of seeing a pair. If you run 3 THCs, you'll need to go 14 turns before you get a 25% chance of seeing a pair. Based on those stats, I wouldn't count "outlet for redundant pairs" very high on the reasons to run a Mox, or to choose one over another.

Source: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1a1fP-qiYh-p-vKqa70ROoKkPRdQlp5G-pHWRcdzm2ow/edit


The math of Chrome Mox makes more sense in this deck than Mox Diamond because it is a simple matter to count it as a Plains while Mox Diamond takes up a spell slot.

I'm probably being dumb, but can you explain this?


I can say without reservation that Mox Diamond is a dead end while Chrome Mox is a possibility.

Over on MTGS there were some folks testing out Chrome Mox. It didn't seem to bear fruit, but that's not to say that it can't work.


But topdecking a Mox Diamond or Chrome Mox is always, always going to just be 'skip your draw step' for us.

Right, much like seeing a Plains when you're already flush with land. The question is if we consider this a basic plains, can we adjust the manabase (e.g. 22 lands 2 Moxen) to not significantly increase the number of dead late-game draws?



2nd - Macenzie Doyle


Missing STP?

EDIT: Across those three lists, the number of THCs equals the number of Enlightened Tutors. I would have expected more THCs and fewer tutors.

[AsmodeusDM]

Wasn't watching the final rounds too closely (I'm from Cleveland and we are now one game away from a World Series victory)...

Checked the top 8; and WOW .. 3 D&T lists!

All 3 running some number of RoTG/SP...

I think we can safely assume that C2 defintely has pushed our deck into one of the top 3 decks in Legacy .. I'd say Miracles, Grixis Delver, and D&T.

Of note:

- lists played 1, 2, and 3 Recruiter of the guard....
- lists played 2, 2, 1 of Serra Avenger (despite the "lack of synergy").

As a result it seems each list also saved a Cavern (with 2 lists running only a singleton). I used to lean on cavern for miracles match-ups; but maybe it's so good now that we dont' need cavern as much

In general the lists were all pretty similar... although 2 of the lists ran 2 copies of THC and the 2nd-place list ran 0 (opting for a Mangara and a Crusader).

Weighted Average of the decks (sorted spells/lands desc)

Spell Avg
T,GOT 4.0
SFM 4.0
Vial 4.0
Swords 4.0
MOM 3.7
Wisp 3.7
Revoker 2.7
Recruiter 2.3
Prelate 1.7
Avenger 1.7
T,HC 1.3
SoFaI 1.0
Jitte 1.0
Skull 1.0
Crusader 0.3
Mangara 0.3
SotL 0.3
Bpriest 0.3

Plains 9.3
Wastes 4.0
Ports 4.0
Karakas 3.0
Cavern 1.3
Canopy 0.7
Flagstones 0.3



RiP 2.0
Cpriest 1.7
Canonist 1.7
Cjudge 1.3
Etutor 1.3
Cataclysm 1.3
Gideon 1.3
Path 1.0
Needle 0.7
Cage 0.3
Wilt Leaf 0.3
Manriki 0.3
Seal of Cleansing 0.3
Sword of L/S 0.3
Relic Warder 0.3
Vet Armorer 0.3
Disenchant 0.3

[AsmodeusDM]

Interesting that Cata AND Gideon appear in the boards in all of the lists.

Presuming I'd want both of those in the miracles match-up... that does seem a bit of a non-bo?

[Luca Grease]

Interesting that Cata AND Gideon appear in the boards in all of the lists.

Presuming I'd want both of those in the miracles match-up... that does seem a bit of a non-bo?

Nah... they are so powerful that you will usually be happy to see them both (won't happen often), and just try to sequence them right. Also, Gideon can be +1'd to save it as a creature the turn you cast Cataclysm.

One thing I can't warm up to in those sideboards (especially the first two) is the low number of creatures in them. I've settled for 7 including Faerie Macabre, but 3 or 4 seems awfully low, especially when 2 of them are copies of Containment Priest. There are matchups where you really want to shave a substantial number of X/1s, but you also want to maintain a reasonably high body count not to fall behind on board. These are the ones where having a few singletons like Leonin, Banisher Priest, Mirran Crusader etc. in the side will come in handy.

[Finn]

The math of Chrome Mox makes more sense in this deck than Mox Diamond because it is a simple matter to count it as a Plains while Mox Diamond takes up a spell slot.

I'm probably being dumb, but can you explain this?It is very important! When allotting slots for lands, you can not count Mox Diamond among them because you have to ditch a land to have the mox. So it has to replace a spell in your design. Since Chrome Mox exiles a spell, it replaces a land in your design. Put another way, when you are counting up your cards for the deck, you count them up like this:

23 lands
2 Mox Diamond
35 other stuff

vs.

21 lands
2 Chrome Mox
37 other stuff



Also, @iatee: There is a trade-off when you use Chrome Mox. Your last post lists only negatives as if there are no positives (making it a strange card to be worth $15 if that were the case). I have acknowledged that there are negatives (and that the positive may outweigh them), so simply listing those negatives does nothing to bolster the argument against the card if that was your purpose.

[iatee]

Phyrexian Obliterator is a $25 card that sees essential no play in any format.

There are obviously positives - you can design great hands with the card, and sometimes you'll even draw one. But the number of games where you'll draw a strong Chrome Mox hand is going to be lower than the number of games where you topdeck it as a dead draw. Cards that are *only* good in your opening hand - and aren't even reliably good in your opening hand (sometimes you don't have a good card to ditch or you don't even have multiple colored spells, you've already mulliganed so this becomes a double mulligan, etc.) aren't cards we should be playing unless we want to be a t1 deck, and we don't.

In matchups where card advantage doesn't matter and you regularly die with a hand filled with cards - sure of course this is fine. If your meta is nothing but Tin Fins and Storm, tossing in a bunch of Chrome Moxes might be worth it. But those matchups make up a fairly small % of the format, and Eldrazi's t1 Chalices are already pushing them out.

[fluuu]

Do u think that The new copter Smuggler Will replace Serra avenger?

[LeoCop 90]

On the Chrome Mox/Mox diamond debate.

As Finn says, if a mox is to be played in this deck, it is probably chrome mox. The reason is simple: we only play 23 lands so we can't really shave lands for mox diamonds, to accomodate them we would have to play a too high density of manasources. Instead, we have roughly 27 cards that can be pitched to chrome mox (23 lands, 4 vial, 3 revoker, 3 equipments leave us with 27 colored cards). This is not an especially high number but it supports one or two copies of chrome mox.

It is difficullt to say if chrome mox has more advantages or disadvantages, but i think iatee is dismissing it too easily. There is no reason to be obsessed with the concept of card disadvantage, because there are games of magic where card advantage doesn't matter at all (especially in legacy where all sorts of broken stuff are available). While we are not a stompy deck that abuses lock pieces, we have a good amount of cards that benefit a lot from being played earlier in the right matchups : thalia 1.0, thalia 2.0, sanctum prelate, ethersworn canonist,and others. Even being able to equip a jitte onto something ahead of schedule can be crucial sometimes.

My opinion is that chrome mox is worth exploring, and i would start with one in the maindeck and one in the sideboard, to bring in against decks where speed is crucial.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Ok. I'll leave this discussion until I either win an event with the Diamonds or until I remove them from the list. My intrigues are derailing the thread. Thanks for your input, guys, but seems I cannot be shook from this.

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[Stevestamopz]

Never leave home without Ratchet Bombs in the sideboard kiddos. That card would have been insane against the entire top 8 and there were 0 in the sbs.

[Curby]

So what would you take out of those sideboards to make room for Ratchet Bombs, and why would your modified sideboard be better against the top8 of that event?

[Stevestamopz]

So what would you take out of those sideboards to make room for Ratchet Bombs, and why would your modified sideboard be better against the top8 of that event?

Pithing Needle, Dread of Night, tokens (not marit lage obviously), all things that are played in multiples against DnT and that easily overload Council's Judgment.

I'm not going to change 3 sideboards for your amusement, but I start my DnT sideboards with 2 Ratchet Bombs and go from there. Bahra_ long ago showed me the power of what looks on the surface to be an underwhelming card and it has been impressive every time I've boarded it in and drawn it.

[Curby]

Shrug. My sig. I don't expect to be amused by you, but if your goal was to provide a strong argument in favor of Ratchet Bomb, I have to say I'm unconvinced.

Maybe I'm crazy though. Can anyone else tell me why Ratchet Bomb would be so much better than the more common selections against this top8 in particular, and against the current Legacy meta in general?

You mentioned starting using Bombs long ago, which I get. Hell, I used them as well back in the day. Our primary use for them was at 0 for flipped Delvers (back when that worked) and tokens. With our increased reliance on tokens in grindy matchups, and the fact that flipped Delvers now count as CMC 1, and with Eldrazi and other Chalice decks pushing ETW-happy combo decks to a corner of the meta, it made sense to ditch Ratchet Bombs for Paths, Disenchants, etc. But again, maybe I'm crazy.

[Patrunkenphat7]

I was just reading this article http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gppra16/deck-tech-death-and-taxes-thomas-enevoldsen-2016-06-12 (outdated, I know), but I was very surprised to see how Thomas described how Death and Taxes was created... I know for a fact that Finn created the deck, and I had it sleeved up in 2009 thanks to Finn's info about it online. Just thought this was weird.

[Curby]

I was just reading this article http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gppra16/deck-tech-death-and-taxes-thomas-enevoldsen-2016-06-12 (outdated, I know), but I was very surprised to see how Thomas described how Death and Taxes was created... I know for a fact that Finn created the deck, and I had it sleeved up in 2009 thanks to Finn's info about it online. Just thought this was weird.

Yup, I've posted before in this thread how Finn seems to get passed over in articles and videos recounting D&T's history. In an attempt to give the benefit of the doubt, Enevoldsen says he got the deck from a friend, Andreas Petersen. In the ideal case he's merely mistaken in believing that Petersen designed the deck.

I'm happy to see that Thraben University gets it "right," or at least this better follows what I know:

http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?page_id=35

Note that over a half decade of development occurred before Petersen allegedly designed the deck!

[pbrod88]

Longtime lurker on here. I have been on the 3 caverns build since cutting the green splash (teeg, choke, pridemage, library) for the new conspiracy goodies. Besides the burn match up getting worse, I cannot see going back. Has anyone else tried 3 caverns?

I am surprised to see many builds still only running 1.

[Medea_]

@kerbysdl

The history section of my site is largely an adaptation and expansion of what Finn wrote for an article/the MtGS primer eons ago.

[infiniteJ]

It's yet to be determined what the best numbers are in DNT, but it seems lists are starting to converge. I'm not suggesting that any of these thoughts are better than the current monowhite lists, but I was wondering if anyone had tried or tested any of the following:

Copter builds: With with squadron hawk it could be really good. I've played some say too much squadron hawk in legacy but I can assure you it's a fine card. Space is obviously really tight. The flying/body is similar to avenger, but it's much easier on the manabase. It's resilient to terminus and helps cycle dead draws, a problem that DNT can run into in the mid-late game.

Starting list:

4 Mom
4 Squadron hawk
4 Thalia
4 SFM
1 Revoker
3 Recruiter
1 Sanctum Prelate
3 Flickerwisp
3 Copter
4 Vial
4 STP
3 Equip
23 Land

Blue Splash: Recruiter can search up meddling mage. It can also search up Geist, which should lock up the miracles matchup. If you want to stretch the mana, it can search up Venser for the karakas lock or True-name for the mirror breaker. Spell Queller also seems like it could be a fit.

Starting List:

3 Mom
4 SFM
4 Thalia
2 Revoker
1 Meddling mage
3 Recruiter
3 Flickerwisp
3 Spell Queller
1 Geist
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Venser
4 vial
4 STP
3 Equip
23 land

Black Splash: If DNT is as represented as it was at eternal weekend, having access to Orzhov Pontiff seems a potential breaker, especially if it can be fit into the g1 config.

Red Splash: Old lists ran Pia and Kiran as a tutor target. The new Pia is 3cc and has some useful abilities and seems maybe a slight upgrade at 3cc.

[Curby]

Besides the burn match up getting worse, I cannot see going back. Has anyone else tried 3 caverns?

To be honest I'm a little surprised you're up to 3. I could maybe see that in a THC-heavy build (that eschews Avengers). Otherwise, with around 6 non-human :w::w: cards in the maindeck (not to mention Gideons, Cataclysms, Judgments, etc. from the side), I'm also surprised that 3 has never bitten you.

I'm considering 2-3 Avengers in my maindeck (and 0 THCs) and have been debating 1 or 2 Caverns. Medea and others do fine on 0.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I play 3 also.

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[DarthVicious]

Opening my list up to constructive criticism. Most of the inclusions are pretty obvious, but I do have reasons for some inclusions.


4 Flickerwisp
//Running less than 4 is bad imho. I'd run 8 if I could.
4 Mother of Runes
//Yep.
4 Recruiter of the Guard
//I usually don't mind seeing muliples, although they are small little guys.
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
//Legendary, and needed some space. She's not always as relevant as she seems.
3 Serra Avenger
//Yep. Damn right. One of the reasons I put this deck together.
3 Stoneforge Mystic
//4 is a bit too many.
2 Sanctum Prelate
//Only weak vs. creature matchups.
1 Mirran Crusader
//Needs little introduction.
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
//Not great as often as she needs to be run to be great, but still useful.
1 Mangara of Corondor
//This little combo is one of the other reasons I put the deck together.
1 Paladin en-Vec
//Jund is a bad matchup. They can do very little about him.

4 Aether Vial
//Again, less than 4 is just bad.
4 Path to Exile
//The lifegain from StP is more often relevant than not, considering the average size of our creatures is like 2 or 3 just one Swords can give them two turns worth of an extension.
1 Umezawa's Jitte
//Must.
1 Batterskull
//Must.

10 Plains
4 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
2 Sea Gate Wreckage
//I was never a fan of SoFI because you need to connect with it, and if you're connecting with equipment you're generally winning regardless of the card draw. This just gets cards when you need more cards.

SB:
1 Disenchant
//Never a bad card, really. Although extra equipment could go here also.
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Sanctum Prelate
2 Council's Judgment
1 Paladin en-Vec
//The extra one postboard helps.
1 Mirran Crusader
//Ditto.
2 Ethersworn Canonist
//With Storm always being out there, and S&S transitioning to a more Omni-Tell... it seems good.
1 Hokori, Dust Drinker
//Mostly for Miracles and Lands.
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
//For those matchups where she's really good.
2 Declaration in Stone
//Helps having two extra removals in the board vs. creature decks. Also great for Warrens and Entreat tokens.


Yes, it's 61 cards. Yes, I'm comfortable with that. I... am enlightened.

[Curby]

I play 3 also.


I'm less surprised that it works well with your build compared to others:

1) You don't play Avengers.
2) Your Mox Diamonds allow you to pitch extras and get "real" white sources.
3) You run 14 "real" :w: sources, i.e. you maintain a high count of non-Cavern mana sources.

(In case it wasn't clear based on the earlier conversation, I'm genuinely intrigued by your inclusion of Mox Diamond. Please keep us updated with how they perform over time.)

[AsmodeusDM]

So from recent paper results along with the continued dominance of 3 decks (Eldrazi, Miracles, Grixis Delver) is it safe to say that recruiter is now a maindeck mainstay and as a result certain silver bullet creatures and typical auto-4-ofs change a bit?

In my mind this is the starting D&T shell.

29 spells (out of 37)

3 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Sanctum Prelate
2 Recruiter of the Guard
3 Flickerwisp
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterkskull
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares

18 lands (out of 23)
7 plains
4 Wastes
4 Ports
3 Karakas

From here it's just a matter of addings lands (either more plains or specialty nonbasics) and figuring out which other maindeck staples you should go up on and which silver bullet creatures you should maindeck. I figure this is going to vary greatly depending on the meta; i.e. in an eldrazi heavy meta I probably wouldn't want the 4th Mom; but I would start to more heavily consider Thalia, Heretical Cathar. Miracles pushes me towards Caverns; more Flickerwisps, Prelates, and Revokers. Delver variants make we want Serra Avenger back in the list. etc etc.

I guess the question is after the spate of results from EE, EW europe, and now the American EW.. what is our legacy meta? And what should we be planning against?.... aside from the mirror... since i"m sure a lot of new people are going to try to pick up the deck.

[RobNC]

Longtime lurker on here. I have been on the 3 caverns build since cutting the green splash (teeg, choke, pridemage, library) for the new conspiracy goodies. Besides the burn match up getting worse, I cannot see going back. Has anyone else tried 3 caverns?

I am surprised to see many builds still only running 1.

I've run 3 when I did not run Avenger, as my only non-Humans that required white mana were Flickerwisp and SFM. Now that I have Avenger back in I'm down to 2 Cavern. I would not want to run less than 2, and they're usually but not always set on Human. Flickerwisp can always reset one in a pinch.

3 does occasionally make it trickier to cast STP/PTE, though.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

(In case it wasn't clear based on the earlier conversation, I'm genuinely intrigued by your inclusion of Mox Diamond. Please keep us updated with how they perform over time.)

Thanks, I will. I just didn't want the thread discussion to become "diamond vs. Chrome" when until there are solid results from either side, it's a bit of a misnomer.

My early background in legacy was Angelstax, and I feel comfortable with 2 diamond with 23 lands. I'm less comfortable pitching threats (lessons learned in Storm). That's a main reason for me to choose the way I did.

[pbrod88]

To be honest I'm a little surprised you're up to 3. I could maybe see that in a THC-heavy build (that eschews Avengers). Otherwise, with around 6 non-human :w::w: cards in the maindeck (not to mention Gideons, Cataclysms, Judgments, etc. from the side), I'm also surprised that 3 has never bitten you.

I'm considering 2-3 Avengers in my maindeck (and 0 THCs) and have been debating 1 or 2 Caverns. Medea and others do fine on 0.


That's fair. I have only been running 2 avengers and have not been using judgements or gideons in the side in place of tutor-able answers. (mangara, Leonin Relic-Warder, etc). If I was running that kind of sideboard, 3 would be a bit much I guess. I haven't been a fan of the many ww non-creature sideboard cards because thalia usually makes them cost 4-5 and it seems easier to just grab a creature with recruiter.

I am sure I am not getting the amount of games in that alot of you are. I may go on a bad streak but until then cavern on!

[koten]

What do you guys think of the DnT lists from this recent 173 player event?

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=21536

DnT placed 9th and 10th and neither lists ran any Recruiters of the Guard. :eek: The 10th place list did have a couple of Sanctum Prelates.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I think they should invest in some Recruiters...

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[Curby]

Yeah, they look like older designs. It'd be interesting to hear the reasons behind their card choices. Availability? Familiarity? Metagaming?

I dig the Phyrexian Devourer tech though. :laugh:

[Tylert]

Yeah, they look like older designs. It'd be interesting to hear the reasons behind their card choices. Availability? Familiarity? Metagaming?

I dig the Phyrexian Devourer tech though. :laugh:

How do you get this thing in play? 6cmc.

[H]

How do you get this thing in play? 6cmc.

It's a joke, they obviously mistyped it as Phyrexian Devourer instead of Revoker.

[NeckBird]

Because MTGTop8 and TCDecks are behind on their data, I decided to combine the two as well as add Hareruya events not yet recorded (only GPT's and five rounders). Also, certain archetypes are combined like Reanimator (BR and UB make up the 12 decks). With these numbers in mind, what should we be preparing for at SCG Baltimore? I think people are preparing for an influx of Death & Taxes anyway so what should we be preparing for? Elves, Infect, Jund, and Maverick have seen increased amounts of play. Perhaps extra Path to Exile's in the sideboard will help or playing at least one Mirran Crusader in the 75 is a must now.

1. Miracles 63
2. Death & Taxes 56
3. Grixis Delver 37
4. Eldrazi 30
5. Elves 25
6. Infect 23
7. BUG Control 19
8. Storm 17
9. UR Delver 17
10. Sneak & Show 14
11. Jund 12
12. Maverick 12
13. Omni-Tell 12
14. Reanimator 12
15. Burn 11
16. Dredge 11
17. Aggro Loam 9
18. Aluren 9
19. Bant Blade 9
20. BUG Delver 9
21. Hexmage 9
22. Lands 8
23. RUG Delver 8
24. Deathblade 7
25. Merfolk 6
26. Belcher 5
27. Painter 5
28. UWx Blade 5
29. Metalworker 4
30. Nic Fit 4
31. 12 Post 4
32. Tin Fins 3
33. Affinity 2
34. Cephalid Breakfast2
35. Dragon Stompy 2
36. Goblins 2
37. Grixis Control 2
38. Landstill 2
39. Red Sneak 2
40. Slivers 2
41. Stax MUD 2
42. Patriot Delver 2
43. Aetherflux Mentor1
44. Deadguy Ale 1
45. Death’s Shadow 1
46. Domain 1
47. Doomsday 1
48. Food Chain 1
49. High Tide 1
50. Jund Flow 1
51. Pox 1
52. Punishing BUG 1
53. RUG Ascension 1
54. UR Control 1
55. 4C Control 1
56. 4C Delver 1
507 decks

[Curby]

so what should we be preparing for?

In a word, hate.

If any of you have been to large recent events, have you seen more Massacres and Pyroclasms? If not, I think you're about to.

[BearsandSquires]

At eternal weekend I played against kozileks return from miracles and omni, but didn't see massacre or pyroclasm throughout the tournament

[AsmodeusDM]

I still think in their heart of hearts its hard for people to dedicate too much sideboard hate against us because we are "just" D&T and we are playing a fair game, no busted combos.. and it's not like we even have brainstorm or Force of Will :D

[Curby]

You mean we're just white weenie. Aggro. You know, like Zoo.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I'm sure that not a single reasonable and reasonably intelligent informed person really thinks like this; at least not since the first week after Recruiter was legal. I'm pretty sure that tonight at my LGS I will face some hate. I 3-0'ed last week and 2-1'ed the week before, and there are two other people here that play it as well that occasionally play.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[Curby]

Yeah I was joking. It was me that mentioned preparing for hate above. However, earlier on in D&T's history it was fun to hear commentators label the deck "aggro."

[Stevestamopz]

My meta is very DnT heavy. I once played a game where my opponent had 2 Dread of Nights, 2 Null Rods and 2 Golgari Charms in his sideboard for me. Feelsbadman.

[Curby]

@Steve Given the heavy presence of D&T, have you seen any bigger sweepers like Massacre, Pyroclasm, and Toxic Deluge, or do people still concentrate on the -1 effects?

[Stevestamopz]

@Steve Given the heavy presence of D&T, have you seen any bigger sweepers like Massacre, Pyroclasm, and Toxic Deluge, or do people still concentrate on the -1 effects?

Well the combo decks that already played them continued to do so (our local Sneak and Show player played a maindeck pyroclasm once) but the numbers have increased. Shardless players play more anti DnT stuff (as per the example above) and the ANT players ususually have 2-3 Dread of Nights in their sb as well as other removal like Disfigure.

To answer your question directly, a mix of both. I know in my Goblins and 4c Delver sideboards I have concentrated cards for the matchup (sulfur elemental, jitte, grudge, sudden demise etc)

[Curby]

Thanks! It's a good thing if not everyone is flocking to bear-killers.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Right, but we should begin to assess how to counter when the inevitable shift does happen. Its only a matter of time, and when the other shoe drops, we'll need to have a plan. So far the thing I like best is Gideon, but I haven't picked any up yet, and even when I do, I'm unsure of what to drop from my board.

Last night I beat Merfolk (2-1) and a bad mono-black Reanimator-style jank (2-0). I lost to Infect (1-2). Again. I'll test against it more. Any tips in the matchup? My list is posted very recently so I won't list it again, but even with 8 total removal spells in the 75, flying/unblockable threats are enough to get there a little at a time. Maybe I'm making mistakes, anyone else have a hard time? It's just so fast on it's fast draws.

I guess my biggest thing is, what does Prelate name? Is Prelate better than Thalia 2.0 in the match, and do you play one or the other or both? Do you name 1? Do you name 3 for Invigorate? I've been naming 1, and I think it's probably correct, but maybe the second one is on 3. The problem with this is again, even when you do this, evasion infect gets there without the pump.

[AsmodeusDM]

Right, but we should begin to assess how to counter when the inevitable shift does happen. Its only a matter of time, and when the other shoe drops, we'll need to have a plan. So far the thing I like best is Gideon, but I haven't picked any up yet, and even when I do, I'm unsure of what to drop from my board.

Last night I beat Merfolk (2-1) and a bad mono-black Reanimator-style jank (2-0). I lost to Infect (1-2). Again. I'll test against it more. Any tips in the matchup? My list is posted very recently so I won't list it again, but even with 8 total removal spells in the 75, flying/unblockable threats are enough to get there a little at a time. Maybe I'm making mistakes, anyone else have a hard time? It's just so fast on it's fast draws.

I guess my biggest thing is, what does Prelate name? Is Prelate better than Thalia 2.0 in the match, and do you play one or the other or both? Do you name 1? Do you name 3 for Invigorate? I've been naming 1, and I think it's probably correct, but maybe the second one is on 3. The problem with this is again, even when you do this, evasion infect gets there without the pump.

Problem is that naming 1 shuts off your plows and paths; also what are you really shutting off there: bstorm, berserk, bdefense (if they are playing it), and vines. Certainly good items... but shutting off bdefense/vines is only useful to open your removal which you are shutting off via the same called number: 1.

Infect is like sub 5% of the meta; they are a creature deck and we are playing jitte and 4 plows main.. I dont' know.. I just don't find myself worrying too much about the match-up.

[iatee]

Removal spells, Jitte and Ethersworn Canonist are what matter in the matchup. THC and Prelate are both 'okay' late game disruption. Prelate is probably a little better (almost always on 3), since their creatures ETBing tapped doesn't particularly matter and they play a really tight curve / have their mana set up before t3.

I don't think you can ever name Prelate on 1 unless you're really desperate. "I don't have removal" is what they want to hear. I sideboard out Thalia 1.0 now and have had a lot of success with this plan. Similar to Prelate, Thalia 1.0 helps freeze out your own STPs/Paths and doesn't hamper them as much as you'd hope.

It's annoying to face the deck, since you never know if you'll just get unlucky and be turn 2'd. But it is one of the few unfavored matchups that can be turned into slightly favored with your sideboard.

[Medea_]

@iatee
I'm unsure about sideboarding out Thalia in the Infect matchup; I've been trying that out as well. Now that we're pretty consistently running two Paths in the sb, it's probably good. It's odd though, as Thalia is a great card in the matchup; it both slows down their cantrip usage and ability to combo kill.

[BKclassic]

@iatee
I'm unsure about sideboarding out Thalia in the Infect matchup; I've been trying that out as well. Now that we're pretty consistently running two Paths in the sb, it's probably good. It's odd though, as Thalia is a great card in the matchup; it both slows down their cantrip usage and ability to combo kill.

I don't think I would board out Thalia against Infect. I think when you play against Infect, you've got to realize that they only have one real threat: Blighted Agent. Mother of Runes and Thalia (or any other creature to a lesser extent) are great against Glistener Elf and we've got Wasteland and Port to stop Inkmoth Nexus. Only use your removal on those cards in an emergency, otherwise hold out for Blighted Agent. Just try to make high percentage plays and accept you might lose to Berserk once in a while. For builds with 3 or more Path SB, Infect is matchup I'm reasonably happy to see.

[iatee]

Infect plays a really tight curve and 50% of their games start off with a ramp card. Making Invigorates cost 1 mana instead of 0 affects them less than STPs costing 2 mana affects us. Holding up Wasteland/Port for Nexus also 'costs mana', as does using SfM, equipping a Jitte, etc. We're the mana-hungry deck here.

I think while Thalia seems like she's a good stalling tool, she often helps Infect get away with a quick combo kill since it's really hard for us to keep 2 mana up at all times. Sometimes Thalia/Wasteland hands might be really good, and I'm sure we've all won some games off Infect with it, but I don't think putting all our resources into mana denial is a reliable strategy when they can win so fast and with relatively little mana.

[Finn]

You can't reasonably take Thalia out against Infect. The matchup is largely about surprises. You having StP at the right time can set them back to the point that they will try to slow roll you if they even suspect it (rather than going for their combo). Them having Berserk is their big trick.

Ethersworn Canonist is brilliant in the role of preventing their surprises. In this deck of mana denial, Thalia does the same thing. And she is a first striker. Ask the Infect guys how they feel about it. They HATE Thalia.

[iatee]

Infect players HATE her! One weird trick for making their Invigorates cost 1 mana.

Ethersworn is fantastic because it naturally limits their combo wins, but just as importantly synergizes with your best card so their protection spells are turned off. No matter what they attempt to do, you can now STP in response and you can't get blown out. Whereas Thalia limits their early combo wins a bit - they still have lots of combo wins with only 2-3 mana with a Thalia in play. But unlike Ethersworn, she's a nonbo with STP. I agree that potential STPs sometimes means that they're forced to play cautiously - my point is that with a Thalia in play, often they don't have to anymore. Her first strike is fine, but not super relevant since a Elf attacking into almost all of our creatures without a pump spell is going to die, and with a pump spell is going to eat anything that isn't pro-green.

[AsmodeusDM]

Brad Nelson preaching hate today:

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/33973_Laying-Out-Legacy.html

Under the premise of a surge in US popularity in D&T following C2...

Advocating for running Sulfur elementals, Massacres and Dreads of Night in S/B
as well as calling an uptick in Elves.

[RobNC]

The last time I was playing against Infect my opponent feared THC more than TGT for some reason. Thalia is great in the early game but they can afford to durdle around enough to be able to pay Thalia tax on two spells to kill you, or at worst chip away at you for a few turns.

In my experience against Infect with D&T, Ethersworn Canonist is the best sideboard creature; it's incredibly good and buys you a ton of time to find removal.

Prelate should always be set on 3, not only because it prevents Invigorate (which causes 90% of the blowouts) but also stops Krosan Grip, which can wreck us - particularly when we have a Jitte with counters we haven't used yet. You never want to set on 1, as it shuts off our only removal that's not Jitte.

[Medea_]

Heya, I've got a new article for you all. This one is actually a guest post by Curby from MtG:S. If you are interested in probability and what adding a 61st card does to your percentages, this is right up your alley. you can find it here (http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?p=593).

[Finn]

I loved that article. Every Magic player should read it.

Back when I was leading the charge for Merfolk, I took a similar position to what Kirby has done here. My limited knowledge of statistics prevented me from making any such well-formed point, but I was unable to get anyone A.N.Y.O.N.E. to entertain the possibility of 61 cards being the right choice. The entire argument is in the Merfolk thread somewhere.

61 cards is particularly attractive these days as we have two different tutor effects and I play another in the board. Tutors screw with deck numbers more than just about anything else.

[ParkerLewis]

I loved that article. Every Magic player should read it.

Back when I was leading the charge for Merfolk, I took a similar position to what Kirby has done here. My limited knowledge of statistics prevented me from making any such well-formed point, but I was unable to get anyone A.N.Y.O.N.E. to entertain the possibility of 61 cards being the right choice. The entire argument is in the Merfolk thread somewhere.

61 cards is particularly attractive these days as we have two different tutor effects and I play another in the board. Tutors screw with deck numbers more than just about anything else.

Anyone willing to argue about it on the Internet, maybe. In real life, there are a lot of people able to perfectly understand how and why the 60 card goal, although a sensible objective, is completely moronic as an impassable totem. I'l pretty sure most of them simply also know better than to try discussing probabilities with people on the Internet. I would say that in Europe at least you "somewhat commonly" see 61 card lists. Not that that means that this was a valid choice in each and every case, but at least people are far more open to the idea.

[Darkgobs]

Heya, I've got a new article for you all. This one is actually a guest post by Curby from MtG:S. If you are interested in probability and what adding a 61st card does to your percentages, this is right up your alley. you can find it here (http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?p=593).

Wow, thank you a lot. Even if I was already often playing with 61 cards in non-combo decks (in R/G lands and occasionally D&T), it feels great to read the statistical argumentation! Very nice and usefull for every MtG player!

[pbrod88]

I made day two of SCGBalt with a 61 card main! I finished the day in....61st place! I unfortunately couldn't physically make day 2 (had to watch my son, etc.)

4 Thalia 4 Swords 4 Wasteland
4 Mom 4 Vial 4 Port
4 SFM 1 Batterskull 3 Karakas
4 Wisp 1 Sword of Fire 3 CAVERNS :)
3 Recruiter 1 Jitte 9 Plains
3 Revoker
2 Serra Avenger
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Thalia 2.0
1 Prelate

Sideboard
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Rest in Peace
2 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Graf Cage
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Sword of War and Peace
1 Containment Priest
1 Mangara
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Wilt Leaf



Here is a brief report of my matches

Round 1- Kiran on Eldrazi Aggro.(1-0) So disappointed to see that my first match is Eldrazi. I lose game one in 4 minutes. I land timely wastelands and swords game 2 and 3. Very lucky to leave with a win.

Round 2- Michael on Eldrazi and Taxes.(2-0) I win a quick game one by taxes his mana. I never see any sign of it being eldrazi so I leave mother of runes in. Lose game 2 and side out all 4 moms quickly. Leon Relic Warder did work on Mox Diamond and Smuglers Copter.

Round 3- Bob on Bug Delver.(2-1) Bob seems to be a very good delver player. He has answers to every move I made. Just when I try to stabilize and turn the corner I get dismembered or decayed. I regret not having a magus in the side. I lose two games.
Round 4- Kyle on Lands. (3-1) I win game one by landing revoker on molten vortex and prelate on 2. I win game 2 by getting rid of his green sources early and landing rest in peace.

Round 5- John on Bug Delver. (4-1) I get things going with a quick game one win. I win game two with getting some good luck. With on mirran crusader on board, He allows his liliana of the veil with 2 counters die instead of just letting his delver of secrets die. I follow up with a rest in peace cutting off his DRS and Tarmogoyf

Round 6- Aggro Loam. (5-1) I win a fast game one by getting an early vial and taxing/swording any threats. Game two Sean leads with a mox diamond into a greensun for an dryad arbor. Seeing he misses his land drop, I immediately turn one swords the arbor. I get lucky and top deck 2 swords to kill a confidant and a ooze for the blow out. He asks for the slip because he didn't want to get "ticked off anymore". His signature was a hole in the sheet. This was my first interaction with a very angry and unpleasant opponent. I ignore everything and walk away.

Round 7- Kyle (different kyle) on Lands. (6-1) Very similar outcome to my earlier lands match game one. Recruiter to Prelate is amazing. Game two I mull to 5 and land an opener of plains plains 2 rest in peace and a vial? He blanks a few turns and I win.

Round 8- Ian on Aggro Loam (6-2) I win game one with a traditional start. I lose game two trying to stop liliana, tabernacle, and knight of the rel. I have my first MAJOR error of the day by missing LETHAL. I decided to draw and not pay the tabernacle trigger! How could I melt down like this.

Round 9- Jarvis on Grixis Delver (6-3). Wouldn't it be great to finish the day with a win vs local legacy guru Jarvis Yu. I knew that Jarvis was on Grixis and felt really good going into the match. We were back up feature match. I win a smooth game one. Game two I get blown out by a sulfur elemental. Game 3 I feel like I get a really good start but get destroyed by his timely dismember on avenger, bolt on crusader and 2 sulfur elementals! I wish I had a magus in this match up. I probably should have saved my swords for elemental and wasteland for his red sources. Maybe I tutor for revoker to dodge the white hate? None the less, he played very well.

Final thoughts- I really liked playing with 61 cards. I decided on 61 cards in order to keep Thalia 2.0. I wish I was greedy and put magus of the moon in the board because it would have stuck in many of the matches. I liked recruiter but often sided it out for threats like rest in peace. The mvp of the day was leonin relic warder. It did wonders in many of the sideboard games. 3 Caverns never backfired all day except during my last round when I was already about to die game 2 against Jarvis (wasted both). I will always be more careful vs tabernacle.

[Luca Grease]

Warning: RANT ON

Some of you might have come to recognize my username, since, according to my profile, I have been posting in here since April 2011. I have been playing Legacy since a short while before that, and Death and Taxes has been my first and main deck all along. It is, in fact, the reason I got into Legacy, and the reason why I registered to this website to discuss and learn about it.

Even though I expanded my legacy repertoire to include Delver and Storm, I only played them occasionally, and kept coming back to the archetype I loved most through thick and thin.
Over the years, I have taken it to many local, small tournaments, of which I've won several, and, even though I very rarely get the opportunity to attend large events, I've come within a hair's breath of top8 in one of the few I've been able to participate in (120ish players). Needless to say, I've played countless practice games with it both in real life and on the internet; and, at this point, it's fair to say that I'm a proficient DnT pilot and a fairly knowledgeable legacy player in general.

But after more than five years, I'm ready to throw in the towel: I don't think I'm ever going to bring Death and Taxes to a competitive tournament again, at least not as long as I care about winning. It might be surprising that this decision comes only a short time after the deck got some powerful new additions, but I don't think that is a coincidence. Like a lot of other legacy aficionados, I expected those cards to finally propel the deck from eternal dark horse of the format to one of the rightful top contenders, possibly even undisputed king... Even though most of you will certainly disagree with me, I believe I was wrong. This deck will never be in the same league as something like Miracles, Delver, or Storm/Omni-Sneak. Heck, it might not even be as good as Eldrazi when it's all said and done. It doesn't matter how many powerful new 3-drops they print, those cards will never address the deck's fundamental weaknesses. Heck, they might even compound them:

1) The deck is too reliant on Aether Vial.
When assessing the impact of this card, newer players tend to systematically underestimate it by only considering its capability to sneak your creatures past counterspells, deploy them at instant speed, or empower their abilities (eg Flickerwisp with Vial@3). But the games where you have it are fundamentally different from those where you don't. The difference in efficiency and effectiveness is tremendous: with it, you can accelerate out piece after piece in response to your opponent's plays while using your manabase to constrict their options. Without it, you become slow, clunky and predictable, as you are often forced to tap out on your mainphase, leaving the opponent with plenty of time to respond and adapt to your plays with more mana efficient, instant speed answers.
It's not only your creatures that benefit from it: cards like Rishadan Port suddenly become a lot worse when you are not advancing your board simultaneously. Even Wasteland is not as good as in something like Delver, where you have a significantly lower mana-curve, and in fact I keep seeing inexperienced DnT players being way too trigger-happy with their Wastelands when they don't have an active Vial.

This deck is truly a force to be reckoned with when we can stick an early Aether Vial, but, unfortunately, that is not something we can count on in every game, or even in most games for that matter. Simple probability will tell us that we only have an about 40% chance of having it in our opening hand, and the nature of this deck will not, statistically, allow us to profitably mulligan to it or look for it in any way, so we'll just have to pray that we get an opening hand that contains the coveted artifact, creatures to put in play with it, and possibly a couple of lands. Unfortunately, decks don't become tier1 by always drawing perfect or close to perfect opening 7s. They do so by being able to win even the games where they have to settle for mediocre openers, and this deck is not particularly good at that, since it doesn't have a) manipulation to fix/improve its draws b) huge turn 1-2 haymakers such as Chalice or Blood Moon that can win the game on their own.
Even worse, all of the above assumes that our early Aether Vial will resolve and stick. Forcing this card on turn 1 is almost always the correct play, as is decaying it on turn 2. Post board, most decks will bring in at least a few cheap, hard-to deal with answers to it, so the number of times we can expect to have access to it should be even lower.
In fact, because this card is so powerful, it is usually the correct play to keep an opening hand that includes even two copies of it but is not otherwise able to function without it, such as Vial, Vial, Wasteland, Port, Flickerwisp, Thalia, Prelate. However, that's usually an auto loss if your opponent has something like Pithing Needle or Null Rod. Which brings us to weakness number 2:

2) The deck is too easy to hate on
This one is pretty simple: since this deck is based on synergy rather than a collection of diverse and individually powerful cards, sideboard hate like Dread of Night, Null Rod, Sulfur Elemental, etc. hit it super hard. Harder than most non-combo decks can be hit by sideboard cards. Those cards are brutally effective because they invalidate huge portions of our deck, and we have no panic button such as Force of Will to prevent them from blowing us out. Our only options are to try and minimize their impact with our sideboarding (only possible to a very limited amount before it becomes counterproductive), play around them if and when we can afford it (we rarely can) and suck it up when we can't. None of those options is particularly good, and, in the case of permanents, they are usually hard for us to remove from the battlefield, and even when we can, they will often have done significant damage already. Moreover, these cards are either colorless, or very easy to access to anyone splashing black or red, so most players will have access to them if they so desire, and you'll never know when to expect them. Only last Friday I got completely blown out by Sulfur Elemental out of Painter in a game I was otherwise never ever going to lose. The worst part was that I then had to sit through countless turns where I was dead on board if only he had realized he could use his Goblin Welder to swap my now unprotected Revoker for a Vial in my yard. I kept peeling dead card after dead card and eventually got a glimmer of hope when I found the second Revoker and he allowed it to resolve, but he immediately topdecked another Painter's Servant with which he named white to smoke both of my Revokers (an idea he got from an onlooker commenting a bit too loudly).

Until a few years ago, we could count on a lot of players not expecting or respecting this deck, not knowing how to play against it, and not really having a sideboard for it. But those days are over. Only yesterday, I saw Jim Davis running 2 DoN in the sideboard of his BUG Delver w/Confidant deck. That was not an especially easy matchup when they "only" played Golgari charm. I would hate to face it now. Which brings us to the next problem the deck has:

3)It is not really favored against the decks it's supposed to beat
This deck is built to prey on the top dogs of the format, those 3-colors, blue-based decks filled with cantrips and noncreature spells such as Miracles and Delver. However, that's where most of my losses have been coming from recently. And it's not an isolated case. Check the reports on here and you'll see tons and tons of losses against supposedly good matchups such as Delver and Miracles. Part of it is that those decks are just the strongest all around, and therefore always stand a reasonable chance even against decks that are well set up against them. And part of it is that they are the ones against which we are most reliant on Aether Vial.
Fast Delver draws will easily out tempo us without it, and post board, the matchup can become almost nightmarish since they can bring in a deadly assortment of hate ranging from the previously mentioned -1-1 effects to artifact hate/destruction to problematic creatures such as Grim Lavamancer or True Name Nemesis. I regularly play Grixis Delver and I can't even remember the last time I lost to DnT unless they had one of those broken Vial/Port/Thalia/Wasteland starts where I just don't get to play magic. And I don't even play any specific DnT hate in my SB, just stuff that is primarily there for Eldrazi such as Explosives, Kolaghan's Command, and Ancient Grudge. Prelate will occasionally win games by completely locking out their draws, but just as often they'll have or find a different cost removal spell for it (something players will start valuing more and more, and there are plenty of good options out there such as dismember, decay, murderous cut, or explosives) or be too far ahead on board already by the time it resolves.

I have already written in length about the Miracles matchup so I'll avoid repeating myself, but suffice to say that I don't feel particularly favored in that one unless I have an active Vial (refer to weakness n.1).

As other people have pointed out, the currently most prominent non-blue matchup of the format, colorless Eldrazi, is mostly a toss-up where the outcome is largely pre-determined by who's on the play and how explosive the Eldrazi player's start is. As bad as it Chalice is against us when we're on the play, it can completely wreck us when we're on the draw, because it invalidates our best hands against Eldrazi, namely those with a lot of Plows/Paths or Aether Vial + Ports and Wastelands. And by the time you flicker it to unlock your removal, it will already be too late more often than not.

So all things considered, I believe this deck falls short precisely on what has long been its main selling point: being a tier 1 killer. Which, considering the deck's other considerable weaknesses, means there's really not much of a (competitive) reason not to play an actual tier1 deck instead.
In other words:

4)A non-blue reactive deck is a losing proposition
Yes, not playing Brainstorm, Ponder, and Force of Will is a huge problem when you're trying to control what your opponent is trying to do, except you don't know what it is they are actually trying to do until after the games starts. Blue decks can shuffle away their bad cards or pitch them to Force of Will. Non blue decks tend to be proactive, such as Eldrazi which will only stop to land a Chalice on 1 (if even) before they try to smash the opponent's head in as quickly as possible, before the impact of drawing random cards off the top of their deck puts them at a disadvantage. But we get the worst of both worlds. Most of our games will go long, and we have no way to ensure we don't just draw the wrong half of our deck.

This is both a difficult and a frustrating deck to master, which is probably why so few prominent players have devoted themselves to it: it requires you to learn a huge repertoire of interactions, tricks and to know the inner workings of most other legacy decks, while at the same time giving you so little control over the tools you have at your disposal during the game. You hone all the finer details of your piloting skills knowing that, most of the times, you won't have as much of a chance to convert those skills into an advantage compared to other decks. This is why someone like Joe Lossett or Angelo Cadei can show up with the same Miracles list over and over again and consistently make top8 in a way no Death and Taxes pilot ever could, even though I've seen them make plenty more minor mistakes than someone like Thomas Enevoldsen or Marc Konig ever did. A great Miracles pilot will rarely lose to an opponent of clearly inferior skill. A great DnT pilot will do so all the time. That to me is the sign of a truly inferior deck.

As Richard Garfield himself put it, the more competitive a game gets and the more time, money and energy the players invest in it, the less randomness they are willing to accept in it, which is why chess-type games with 0 chance involved will always be the ultimate test of skill when it comes to table games. And the reason why DnT is not an optimal choice for an experienced and competitive player.

Is my current disillusionment with the deck the product of a string of negative results? Yes, definitely. 3 of the last 4 tournaments I've brought it to have been pretty disastrous. Were some of those losses the product of my mistakes? Occasionally, but I hardly ever made any obviously fatal mistake, and in fact I believe I played on average better than a lot of my opponents, who often missed critical plays or made outright comical decisions and still won.
Far from clouding my judgement, I think that this string of bad variance actually made me take a dispassionate look at my accumulated experience with the deck, and at its results through the years in the larger meta (keep in mind this has been a very well represented deck in legacy for a while now), and, in my opinion, that is enough to conclude that, while it is a blast to play and potentially very powerful, it does not have the consistency and reliability to truly be one of the top decks of the format.

RANT OFF

[koten]

You might be onto something given that there is not a single DnT list in the top 32 at SCG Baltimore.

[jdmdave]

Hey guys, Turbo Depths player here looking for sideboard input for the upcoming GP.

DnT is a pretty difficult matchup and I'm considering a few cards as a sideboard silver bullet. Our deck already has 4 pithing needles (wasteland/karakas/vial), ghost quarter (karakas), 4 not of this world (STP/Karakas), karakas (thalias), and 3 abrupt decays, but the matchup still feels like an uphill battle. Would you recommend (1) 4th abrupt decay, (2) 1 toxic deluge, (3) 1 dread of night, (4) 1 massacre, or (5) 1 darkblast in the side?

[AsmodeusDM]

You might be onto something given that there is not a single DnT list in the top 32 at SCG Baltimore.

Yeah not going to lie; very disappointed with the results from the Open.

Even some of the semi-pros of the SCG Tour (like Michael Majors or Ben Friedman) who were playing the deck .. took quick losses after their byes and were out of the tournament early.

[Fry]

@ Luca Grease with my own mini rant...
I've been pulling away from this deck for a while now, halfway did in Imperial Taxes (4 Imperial Recruiters and 3 Magus main board works quite well, yes the full set of Recruiters) and now sort of just moving to Aluren. My thing with this deck is that while everything you said is true, was that it was unknown enough and most people weren't prepared for the deck/knew enough what to counter/remove/discard. Ever since the deck started to get more limelight, I've been moving onto another deck. I love the deck and I always will, but I also think it's time to set it down for the time being.

I've played D&T/Imperial Taxes as one of my two go to decks (MUD being the other, still lots of things I can and do do that are unexpected ^_^) since I started playing D&T about 6 years ago. I love decks with a lot of tricks that my opponents don't understand before I do them. I don't get that with this deck very often, if at all anymore... Starting to lose that a little bit with the new Recruiter with Aluren now too actually :frown:

I like to think that I've done a lot for this deck, at least I've had several ideas that were first scoffed at, but a few months later became widely accepted when others put up higher profile results with them, and I will always follow this thread as it is one of my favorite decks I've ever played.

[Stevestamopz]

Meh, I wouldn't worry about it too much. It sucks if you don't have another deck, but the hate will eventually fade as people stop bringing DnT. As DnT becomes bad, so does t1 and t0 combo as the Delver and Miracles and the T3/T4 combo decks that also play Force become good. This in turn forces our worst matchups: Shardless and Glasscannon.dec either out of the format or to drop their dedicated hate. Before you know it, DnT becomes good again.

As for your rant Luca, there's a reason Brainstorm is the #1 played card in this format and the subject of an entire thread on this forum. No amount of tutors will ever replace "Draw 3 cards, put 2 back". You have to accept that if you play this deck.

[iatee]

I went 9-6, 74th at the SCG Open. Felt I played well all of D1 and most of D2 and most of my losses were due to poor draws vs non-blue decks, but there was at least one match I probably could have won if I played tighter. Last round opponent was unfortunately Elves which knocked me out of t64ing/cashing.

I've been trying to squeeze Ghost Quarters into the list to improve the Eldrazi matchup / consistently wreck greedy mana decks without committing to another color for Magus. There's a ton of Eldrazi at my local store and I've been having success with the infinite Wasteland infinite STP post-board strategy. They all play a basic Waste now since they're used to my Magus/Paths but it still doesn't help much, since they still lose a mana (or a TKS) and you're still cutting them off big plays and Eye of Ugin. I took out a Mom and a Port for 2 GQs main, going up to 24 land. I still lost to an Eldrazi opponent with a series of god hands, but that's gonna happen.

I expected a lot of DnT so the Relic Warder main was a meta-call, there was a decent amount d1 but played none. Everyone expected a lot of DnT and I think sideboards were stacked, which is one reason why it did poorly at the event. Decent amount of Elves D2 too.

Here's my list:
4 Thalia
4 SFM
3 Mom
3 Recruiter
2 Sanctum Prelate
3 Flickerwisp
1 Banisher Priest
1 Mangara
1 Mirran Crusader
2 Revoker
1 Relic Warder
4 Vial
4 STP
Bskull/Jitte/Sofi
4 Wasteland
2 Ghost Quarter
3 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
3 Cavern
8 Plains
1 Flagstones of Trokair

SB
2 Cataclysm
1 Ghost Quarter
3 Path to Exile
2 Rest in Peace
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Mirran Crusader
2 Sanctum Prelate
1 Leonin Relic Warder
1 Faerie Macabre

R1 UB Reanimator (2-0, 1-0)
G1 I'm on the play and have a Vial hand that's only okay vs combo but the creature he bins is Iona and I have a Karakas.
Board out SfM package and Moms, board in most of the SB that isn't Cataclysm
G2 He has t1 Needle for Karakas. I correctly guess that he has a Massacre in hand and Prelate for 4. Fetched Fairie Macabre early but didn't need to use it.

R2 Eldrazi (2-0, 2-0)
G1 I had played him at at event months ago and he had been on Infect then, so I was guessing he was still on Infect. But STP/Wasteland/SfM hands are good against slow Eldrazi hands too. He might have been able to take the game had he Dismembered my SfM earlier.
Board in Cataclysms, GQ, 3 Path, Crusader, Relic, take out Moms, Prelates, most Thalias, Cavern
G2 Vial Recruiter Flickerwisp chain. He didn't draw many of his bigger Eldrazi creatures in either game.

R3 Miracles (2-0, 3-0)
G1 Have a Mom, Thalia, Prelate opening, which should be good against Miracles, but he had STP for Mom, blind hits Thalia with Counterbalance, shuffle/hits to a 3 (Mentor) to counter my Prelate, at which point I start to get concerned. I managed to sneak in a Relic-Warder to eat the Counterbalance and draw into a Cavern finally. He starts going in on Mentor/Top, but I have another Prelate on 1. Eventually he's forced to Terminus away 2 Mentors to get my Prelate off the board, I still have a bunch of equipment in play and win.
Board into 2 Cataclysm, Needle, 2 Prelate, take out a GQ, Relic, Banisher Priest, Jitte, Flickerwisp. Keep all 4 STP since I saw double Mentor so quickly, he's probably playing 4.
G2 T1 Vial, Revoker on Top, Prelate on 1 he never gets a white source.

R4 Dark Maverick (1-2, 3-1)
G1 I have a Vial, he has an early Thalia and Revokered Ooze that can put a little pressure on my life but don't really matter. I SfM a Jitte and get it online + Prelate on 2. He GSZs a Pridemage and attempts to kill it, but I Flicker it. He gets a KotR and Sylvan Safekeeper and I make him Armageddeon himself to keep the Safekeeper alive. He scoops when he can't come back.
Board out Thalias, Mangara, Cavern board in 3 Path, Needle, Relic Warder, Crusader
G2 Had a decent hand, Path his first Bob but he has another and I just get super flooded.
G3 He mulls to 6 and I have double StP so I StP his t1 GSZ'd Dryad Arbor, hoping he's mana screwed. I think this was a mistake and it's generally wrong to go after Maverick's manadorks and not their stronger creatures. Probably wasn't what cost me ultimately since he drew into a Sword of Light and Shadow, multiple KotRs, Scrib Ranger and Double StP for my creatures, and I got super flooded again, after starting out with a 2 land hand.

R5 4c Delver (2-0, 4-1)
G1 His opening hand seemed awkward, Wasteland his first Volc, GQ his t2 Volc, now he has no red sources. He cast a Sylvan Libary and Goyf but I had answers and he said he had a bunch of Bolts in his hand and on top of his deck.
Board out a Recruiter, Revoker, Wisp, Priest, 4 Thalia, in 3 Path, 2 Prelate, 2 RiP, GQ
G2 He had an early Dread of Night but it did very little since I had removal for all his threats / Thalias were boarded out anyway, eventually won with equipment.

R6
G1 Infect (1-2, 4-2)
SCG guy who streams a bit, I knew he plays Infect. Kept hand off Thalia/SfM/GQ being okay, assuming nothing funny I would have a Jitte online t4 and Thalia might clog him up.
G1 Elf on the play, Thalia blocks it but gets Invigorated, don't draw a 3rd land immediately and my SfM gets dazed, Crusader to block it gets FoW'd. Likely would have won that one on the play and/or with a Cavern.
Take out Thalias, Prelate, Bskull + forgot which land for Paths, Relic, Ghost Quarter
G2 Jitte gets Gripped but have Sofi on Flickerwisp to eat his Blighted Agent. He had a way to block with an Inkmoth (activate it force me to Port it) that would have allowed him to win with it next turn since I was at 9 poison, but he didn't see it.
G3 Mull a triple Vial no removal hand to a t1 Vial t2 Caverned Canonist no removal hand. He Claims my Vial t1 and plays two Blighted Agents. Become Immenses one after I tapped out for a Crusader and I'm at 9 Poison when I finally draw a STP a turn too late. I could have not tapped out for the Crusader to bluff STP for a turn, but then I have no clock vs 2 Blighted Agents.

R7 Shardless (2-1, 5-2)
G1 He left a sideboard card in main and had to call a judge and mull to 6. I have a great hand on the play, Vial Mom Thalia Crusader and 3x Wasteland so it probably didn't matter.
Bring in Cataclysms, Rips, Crusader, Needle take out Mom, Relic Warder, Flickerwisps, Cavern
G2 I have a RiP and Revoker + Needle for his Lili, he draws new Lili card which is pretty strong vs DnT, Shardlesses a bunch, just starts building a huge board while I'm doing very little. I still can draw into Cataclysm throughout this time and I could tell he had no Forces post-board, so I was live in the game pretty late, but only to that exact draw.
G3 Thalia, RiP for his t1 DRS, he has 2 Ancestrial Visions on suspend and the turn before they both hatch I play the Prelate I've been sandbagging for 0.

R8 Painter (0-2, 5-3)
G1 Friend of a friend so I knew he was on Painter. He had t1 Grindstone t2 Servant, I let him activate and have StP, but he finds another Servant almost immediately and I don't have any more interaction for the combo.
Board in Relic Warder, 2 Prelates, 3 Path, Needle, board out Sofi, 2 SfM, land, Crusader, forgot what else
G2 He has another fast combo hand, I have STP for the first Servant, Vial-Flickerwisp the Painter during the second activation but his 2 card fair Grindstone mill hits the Banisher Priest that I woulda drawn to actually get rid of that Servant.
Feel like this matchup is highly, highly favored with my build - Post-board I have 2 Revokers, 1 Needle, 2 Relic Warder, 7 Path to stop early kills, 4 Prelate to stop Grindstone from even hitting the board / Red Blasts / Fiery Confluence, Recruiters, etc. etc. Anyway I think I just got unlucky here, I'd take Painter as a matchup anytime.

R9 Miracles (2-0, 6-3)
G1 Triple Vial on the play with Thalia and Flickerwisp is pretty good against Miracles. Can tell he's setting up a Terminus and GQ a Plains after he does it, he chooses not to search. Suspicions confirmed about the Terminus, I use my last Flickerwisp + Port to ensure he can't cast the Terminus next turn anyway. Same Miracles SBing.
G2 He gets out a Mentor + Top, I have my own set of creatures including a Flickerwisp. I Cataclysm and have 2 mana floating - he thinks about it for a while and eventually chooses not to Force it because he thinks he can race me with Mentor + Top, Force whatever leftover play I'd have to get ahead. But post-Cataclysm with my floating mana I have STP for his Mentor (which he then Forces) and Pithing Needle for his Top. Play a Prelate on 1 and he scoops.

R10 BR Reanimator (2-0, 7-3)
This is the hot new deck that's been popular online, it's pretty scary since it has some draws that nobody can beat. I think DnT has okay game against it, probably better than most blue decks that are equipped to counter one big spell but don't have unconditional removal / Karakas / RiP.

G1 I'm on the play, have a Vial. He animate deads a t2 Sire, I Vial in a SfM and I actually outdraw + race him from there. I Recruiter for a Flickerwisp instead of a Banisher Priest because I wasn't thinking but it doesn't matter in the end and I draw a StP soon after.
SB similar to vs UB Reanimator but also bring in Canonist cause they play Rituals.
G2 He mulls to 5, plays Polluted Delta, I play t1 Vial, he plays another land, I play Pithing Needle - he assumes I'm naming Griselbrand and he doesn't crack his Delta and so I name it, which essentially ended the game on the spot. Recruiter for Faerie Macabre - at which point I start to feel safe. He's still mana-screwed, eventually Massacres me and Brutalities a Relic Warder. I have more creatures and he still can't do anything so I win with chip shots.

R11 UR Delver (2-0, 8-3)
G1 He Probe/Ponders and I assume he's on a combo deck, but it's really UR Swiftspear/Stormchaser. He doesn't have a fast enough clock g1 and I have a STP for his first Swiftspear. I can play SfM and Prelate eventually and the deck isn't beating Batterskull g1. He Forced something pitching Fire/Ice early, apparently his only blue card in hand, but painfully shut off his out to Prelate in doing so.
SB in Paths, Crusader, Prelates, out a GQ, Recruiter, Relic, Mangara, Revokers.
G2 I Banisher Priest a Swiftspear, he has a Null Rod for my Vial and Rough/Tumble to wipe my board and even casts a Bedlam Reveler but my Batterskull + Prelate on 1 + Mom eventually stabilizes.

R12 Eldrazi (0-2, 8-4)

G1 Mull a Vial+Sofi+5 land hand to a hand with a bunch of SfMs, he mulls to 6 also, t1 Eye, Endless One, I waste it, t2 plays another Eye, t3 TKS t4 Reality Smasher, I can't keep up.
G2 Mull to 6, one Land Sfm/Sfm/Path, scry Vial to top, sucks cause I miss a land drop, but at least I'll have Vial online. He has t1 Endless One x 2, t2 TKS, t3 Reality Smasher, t4 Reality Smasher. I had a Batterskull out by his last attack and it would have been a game if he had only 1 Reality Smasher.

R13 Infect (2-1, 9-4)
G1 I have a lot of manadenial, he has a Blighted Agent and is taking chip shots, I Recruiter for Banisher Priest but he has FoW for it. I get a Sfm/Jitte and am a turn away from getting it online if he doesn't have a pump spell as his last spell, but he has a Berserk for the extra 1 damage. Think I win that on the play.
G2 Get both equip out quickly and have my removal
G3 Vial STP Path Revoker hand, he t1 Hierarchs so I can safely cast Vial. T2 Spellskites, I STP it. Eventually have a ton of mana denial and can safely operate the whole game with Vial on 3 + Flickerwisp on top of the removal already in my hand.

R14 4c TNN/Snapcaster/Delver (1-2, 9-5)
G1 Mull to 5 on the draw, but it's SfM and lots of equipment so I actually pull ahead quickly and even have a Batterskull with Sofi attached, get to 30 life, but he casts a series of Abrupt Decays and Snapcasters. He can't kill the Skull itself, but gets a TNN out and kills everything that I'd have to get past it (Sofi, Moms, Flickerwisp) so there's a long board stall with his DRS Revokered. At one point I STP'd a Snapcaster to get some value out of my STP before casting Prelate, then cast Prelate into Daze. That play may have cost me the game, though he conceivably could have had another Decay, I don't remember. I thought he was probably out of Dazes when I did it, since he had burned a bunch earlier and was drawing into cards and cantripping. I didn't draw any of my Wasteland/GQs despite the game going something like 30 turns. Had I drawn any land disruption early he wouldn't have been able to Snap+Decay so freely.
Board similarly to previous Delver
G2 Wasteland x 3 + GQ him out of lands.
G3 We're both topdecking, I have Vial on 3 + unattached Batterskull on board don't draw into anything he draws into Delver Jitte TNN. My top card was a Recruiter after the game was over, had I drawn it a few turns earlier while we were both empty handed I probably win with an endless Recruiter+Flickerwisp chain.

R15 Elves (0-2, 9-6)
G1 Vial Cavern Thalia SfM Recruiter don't draw land. Had I drawn a land within the first 2-3 turns I probably win since he mulled to 6 and didn't have the fastest start. Prelate on 4 to hope that after his first mini-Glimpse he was going to Natural Order, but he just Glimpses again. He said he did have an Order in hand though.
Bring in Cataclysms, Needle, Canonist, some Paths, take out Thalias, Relic, Mangara
G2 Keep T1 Mom t2 SfM/Revoker. Not amazing but has some sort of game plan. Hope he plays a relevant Elf to Revoker t2, but he plays a Nettle Sentinel, so I'd have to blind name with Revoker and I decide against rolling the dice like that. The correct answer was Birchlore Rangers in this case, which is his t2 play and leads to a huge board, t3 Cradle GSZ.

Kinda unfortunate way to end the day.


Overall

- See no reason to not still play the GQs until Eldrazi goes away and they're randomly very strong in other matchups - Delver and Infect obviously, any Lands-based combo deck (12-Post/Lands/Depths) but even Miracles, where you can pressure their basic Plains and the top of their deck. Against decks with only 1-2 basics it's close to being another Wasteland, since they're generally fetching that basic to play around Wasteland. Playing a Flagstones lets you convert the GQs into a white source. Combines well with multiple Paths if they are a 1-basic deck. Maybe Lands shifting to 4 GQ will pressure people into more basics, but at the moment I am pretty cool with playing Strip Mine.

- GQ obviously worse than a 4th Port vs Miracles, but if you can't consistently beat Miracles with the above list then you need to practice more.

- All this talk about 61 card decks above misses the fact that the deck already wants 23.5 lands and playing 61 cards / 23 lands to squeeze in all your favorite 3 drops effectively lowers the land count for the deck. 24 lands but 2 of them being GQs was nice, since they're only half lands anyway and I had room to more freely side out a land.

- Had considered playing an Aven Mindcensor over Mangara to combo with the GQs / mana denial + have another flyer - kinda regret not having gone through with it. Would have been pretty good, Mangara didn't do much.

- I regretted not playing 4 Path in the board, 4/6 losses were decks where I woulda brought in 4 and one more removal spell would have maybe won the game (Painter, Infect, Eldrazi, Delver). I spoke with Michael Derczo, who incidentally beat my friend on Delver to t64 and cash the last round, and he was also running 3 Path and really liking them.

- 4 Prelate / 3 GQ / Faerie Macabre / 2 Relic-Warder / Paths means I was super super stacked vs Lands and I was disappointed I didn't get to beat up on any Lands players. I also find stock Grixis Delver close to unloseable at 7 Wasteland/7 STP, but unfortunately played the TNN Delver build instead, which still has and found the one card I can't deal with. Maybe I should just play Council's Judgment, but I hate having to have to expect to draw into exactly that card.

- When you have 4 Prelates in the 75, it's hard to know how many to keep vs non-blue decks with a handful of powerful spells with a mix of casting cost like Elves and Maverick. Or barely blue decks like Infect. I think I kept 1 vs Infect and 2 vs the others? I don't hate the idea of having a fetchable one vs Infect to help seal certain games up, but you definitely don't want a hand full of them.

- Board not great vs Elves, didn't play Containment Priest in my board, maybe got a little punished for not having one my last match, not that it would have affected the specific games I played. Similarly went down to 1 Canonist since Storm is weak right now and 4 Prelates is also pretty oppressive for them. My logic for no Priest is that Faerie Macabre is a better recruiter target vs Reanimator anyway since it's faster and harder to interact with, doesn't shut off Vials. Macabre is also a t0 play to deal with super fast combo with a lot of other application. Priest better against Elves, is great against SnS but who cares about that + okay vs Omni and kinda whatever in Vial mirrors. So you're playing a card that's only a better tutor target in one terrible matchup - and that matchup still remains a bad matchup no matter how much SB space or THCs you have in your deck.

[redtwister]

I haven't had a chance to post my report (at work), but I had an experience not unlike iatee's where my losses were not so much to Blue decks as non-blue decks where it was largely variance (though I made some mistakes, as well.) I only played 3 blue decks, and one was Dredge, so not a "real" blue deck. I beat Miracles handily and lost miserably to 4C Grixis Delver.

I am not despondent about DnT as a deck and in fact it seems there are more viable non-Blue decks right now than before, and we don't have bad matches against many of them (I wonder if anyone has a good match against BR Reanimator's nut draws.)

I like the idea of Ghost Quarter as a 61st card actually. The mana denial is real.

EDIT: Report below.
I went 4-4 drop at the Baltimore Open, but I was 4-2 going into round 7, so I felt like I had a chance for day two all the way through the last game.

Round 1 vs Alex on BR Goblins
This was an odd version of Goblins. He was playing Grenzo, Dungeon Warden and Wort, Boggart Auntie. I got game 1 in part because I used Revoker on Grenzo. I also played a Mom and just traded with his Lackey, since those get way out of control way quick. Game 2, I just had an awkward set of draws and he got going with Grenzo and Lackey and had artifact removal for all three of my equipment. Game 3, I a down to 3 life, he has 3 creatures on the board (1/1, 2/1, and a 1/2), I have 7 land thanks to a flood, and Vial on 3. I draw Recruiter, Vial it in, get SfM, hard cast it, get Batterskull, hardcast Batterskull. Now I have 3 creatures, with a 4/4 lifelink, vigilance token. All I have to do is hold one one turn. He has 8 lands (thanks to my 3 Path to Exiles), topdecks Goblin Ringleader, gets two Gempalm Incinerators in his four cards, cycles Gempalm to destroy my germ token, plays a land and casts Chieftan for the win.
0-1

Round 2 vs. Josh on Burn
Not all that exciting. I get Batterskull and Jitte both games before he can kill me, stabilize and end with more than 20 life game 1 and 8 life game 2.
1-1

Round 3 vs. Mark on DnT
Phyrexian Revoker on Mom both games was huge. He flooded Game 1 and only drew Mom's, while my 3 Serra Avenger and a drawn and hard cast SoFi were the breaking point. Game 2, Serra Avenger with a Manriki-Gusari and Leonin-Relic Warder. Nuff said.
2-1

Round 4 vs. Kurt on Eldrazi
Game 1, Turn 1 Chalice on 1, turn 2 Thought-Knot Seer, turn 3, Jitte and equip. GG. Game 2, He got slightly ahead of me. I think i made a mistake, as I had 3 Wasteland and I used all three on Ancient Tomb and I left his Eye of Ugin alone, but I feel like I should have used the third one on Eye. I had a Flickerwisp with SoFi that I got two swings in with (1 for 5, since I had to use 2 to kill a creature of his, and 1 for 7, so I had him at 3 life.) He had had to play out some cards and if I had killed the Eye two turns earlier, I think he would have been dead to his own need to cast spells.
2-2

Round 5 vs. Miracles (don't remember his name)
Sanctum Prelate on 1 or with vial on 3 is soooo good. We played 3 games, but after Game 1, when he was just able to dismantle my board (including maindeck artifact hate to destroy my vial turn 2), he landed Jace and I couldn't get two spells out. Games 2 and 3, it was un-countered Vials with Prelate and various bits of hate. I played carefully, did not overextend, and held Prelate back until it was a game-finisher.
3-2

Round 6 vs. Eldrazi Thalia Stompy (don't remember his name)
3 very complicated games. Revoker was a star on Eldrazi Displacer and Manriki-Gusari once more did good work, along with Relic-Warder. Those three cards were very good to me today. Game 3 was very close up to the last moment, when I hit Path, into Plains, into Council's Judgment to seal the deal.
4-2

I felt good at this point, like I had not made too many mistakes and most of my losses had been variance, with the exception of the 2nd Eldrazi game Round 4. Of course, this is where the wheels come off.

Round 7 vs. Eric on Dredge
Big shock, I lost game 1. I did get a Jitte out and threatened to maybe come back (if I had had Mirran Crusader with it rather than a first striker, I think I might have pulled it out.) I made 1 big mistake: I played Thalia first instead of SfM. I should have played that and blocked and eaten all his Bridges, then played Thalia, then played Jitte. Instead, I allowed him to make a few extra zombie tokens and do some extra damage, which hurt. Game 2, I mulliganed to 6, but only had one land. I guess I should have mulliganed to 2 lands and a RiP? Even worse, he was able to Cabal therapy 6 times in 3 turns. He hit all 4, 2 in hand and 2 went into the grave, had great dredges, at which point he hard cast the 2 and then sac cast all 4. He literally ate my hand by turn 3, including my Rest in Peace. I should have mulliganed harder, I guess.
4-3

Still a small chance of Day 2.

Round 8 vs. James on 4C Grixis Delver
This felt really not close. Game 1, DRS, FoW my removal, turn 2 True-Name Nemesis, seemingly infinite removal. Game 2, I am completely not sure how to sideboard because I don't want to take anything out and I want to bring 7 spells in: 3 Path, 1 Prelate, 1 Council's Judgment, 2 Rest in peace. Maybe the Path are too much? He just kills everything after I mulligan to a mediocre 5. He had so much removal, and 4 DRS, 4 Delver, 2 Zombie fish, 2 TNN. Ugh.
4-4

Dreams crushed, very tired, but also more or less happy. Except for a couple blunders and some weird matches (I literally played only 3 blue decks all day, and one of those was Reanimator, which isn't that kind of blue deck), I felt like I played well and was in range of Day 2 and able to play into it.


4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Mother of runes
3 Flickerwisp
3 Revoker
3 Serra Avenger
2 Recruiter of the guard
2 Prelate
1 Mirran Crusader

4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
1 Jitte

4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
4 Wasteland
12 Plains

3 Path to Exile
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Rest in Peace
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Containment Priest
1 Manriki-Gusari

I was not thrilled with the 3 Path to Exile plan. I am probably going to 1. Mindbreak Trap was a meta call, but the only combo I saw made me want more Containment Priest or Rest in Peace. I don't know if Gideon feels as necessary against Miracles, but I didn't play against Shardless and that might make it worth it to still run it. Opinions? Maybe that is where I fit Palace Jailer in.

I'll be taking out the 3rd Serra Avenger for the 4th Flickerwisp, but the maindeck overall felt really solid. The jury is still out on Cavern of Souls. It would have been good in a couple of games for sure, but my problem with creatures wasn't counterspells so much as removal.

[pbrod88]

I like cavern against eldrazi because it allows for mom to be cast through chalice. Using mom as a blocker game 1 can be huge.

[Colin]

I've been meaning to write something but have been busy. I played eternal weekend and went 6-1 before the wheels fell off.

4 Mother of runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Flickerwisp
3 Revoker
2 Recruiter of the guard
2 Prelate
1 Leonin Relic Warder
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Serra Avenger

4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
1 Jitte

4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Karakas
2 flagstones of Trokair
2 cavern
8 Plains

2 Path to Exile
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Rest in Peace
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
2 Containment Priest
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Sword of war and Peace
1 leonin relic warder
1 Cataclysm

mainboard relic warder was a nod to all the grinders I saw the night before while playing vintage and it served me very well. SoWP same.

Match 1 Merfolk (1-0, 2-0) on the draw

game 1:Vial into port into SFM-> SoFI

Game 2: ports very important as he only had 2 island at any given point. turn 4 vial let me add threats while porting/waste


Match 2 R/G combo lands (2-0, 4-0) on the draw

Game 1: Vial-> SFM/Batterskull-> prelate on 2 after he had dredged 1 loam. He drew well, and I had to play through a Tabernacle, plow 2x ML tokens but I got there notable in this game was that MD relic warder took an explore limiting him to 1 per turn and significantly limiting him.
Game 2: spend turn 1-3 wasting green sources, cast vial and go to work. Opener had a rest in peace which was important, did some fancy flickerwisping in this game. path to exile>STP made this a much faster game.

Match 3: Omni-tell (3-0, 6-0) on the play
Game 1: play mom, he mulled to 5 shows me ancient tomb, so i think eldrazi and start wastlanding and swing with mom, shows another tomb-> waste. plays fetch, pass. cast jitte. Mom+jitte does 13 damage plus mirran for the win.
he had nothing going on
Game 2: turn 1 vial, sitting on relic warder from the opener. Ports+waste+vial lets me play. He eventually cunning wishes for intuition for show and tell. omni comes down to meet relicwarder, he brainstorms for free and wiffs. vial sitting on 2, I play on, mom hits the board goes active. We get to the point he thinks he has options, intuitions for 2x echoing truth, 1x repeal. holding another echoing. untaps and casts, respond with vial ethersworn-> pro blue from mom.

Match 4: Grixis Delver (4-0, 8-0) draw
Game 1: turn 1 vial, turn 2 vial+wasteland, turn three plow pyro and start with the hit parade
Game 2: was pretty standard, with plows/paths on delvers, trading creatures and some taxing. When he hit zombie fish I had the flickerwisp sequencing to blank him long enough for the dudes to get there.

Match 5: Tin Fins (4-1, 8-2) play
Game 1: turn 1 vial. opponent mull to 5, turn 1 land ritual entomb, shallow grave -> reoccur deck w/emrakrul until able to hard cast emrakrul off the recycled rituals. I called a judge to ask about the similarities between this and 4 horsemen ( i had a plow and karakas in hand and would liked to have a turn) turns out the fact that it's netting mana allows it to avoid the slow play rule.
Game 2: turn 1 land pass holding plow and RIP + land, opponent-> turn 1 land, ritual, duress, entomb, reanimate-> draw, petal, children, I made him go until his recycled chidlren were netting enough life to draw his whole deck at a time....

These decks are the reason I've been considering surgical and/or cage over RIP. Now that I'm on the Path plan, I don't fear tarmogoyf or zombie fish etc. and I'd like the potential for turn 1 interaction....

Match 6: White eldrazi (5-1, 10-2) play
Game 1: ports and wastes + relevant threats gets this going, recruiter gets relic warder to eat the turn 1 chalice and turn on 2x STP for smasher and TKS
Game 2: back and forth, my extra removal adds up after flickewisp resets the Chalice I get to clean up his board. palace jailer makes an appearance and ends up drawing me a lot of cards after a chip shot from vialed recuiter-> flickerwisp to blank his defenders and make me the monarch


Match 7: The Mirror (6-1, 12-3) draw
Game 1: She has 2x moms + vials and ports, I scoop very quickly.
Game 2: turn 1 mom eats a plow, turn 2 SFM gets SoWP which she reads a few times and sighs. Mirran crusader gets a sword connects 1x, then 3 consecutive flickerwisps black the sword for a bit. her eventual revoker gets relic wardered-> reeuquip and GO!
Game 3: back and forth. Search up SoWP again, she goes for Manriki, I revoker, blinking, plows jitte and batterskull all come into play, I saw 2 STP 1 Path which was the decider. then I vialed a recruiter-> wisp chain for the win.

Match 8: Colorless eldrazi (6-2, 13-5) draw I knew what he was on and kept a 2x waste vial plains hand
Game 1: eye into endless meets a waste, so does temple. then vial and luck into a port. he never reaches 4+ mana in the main phase and I seal it.
Game 2: I draw all the feel-bads. ports and wastes keep him off stuff, relic warder eats a jitte, we go back and forth, but eventually smasher ->end bringer-> endbringer and I'm out of relevant answers.
Game 3: I'll start by saying I ended this game with 15 land in play/hand/graveyard. There was a turn where I hardcast batterskull and ported 2 lands..... Here's my big punt of the day: I'm on the losing end, hoping to turn the courner with Bskull. I know he's holding all big stuff and waiting for me to let him get to 5+ mana. he dismembers my germ. I cast relic warder targeting my bskull. then double block his TKS with thalia and relic warder. I did not know that he could assign all the damage to thalia. I call judge and learn my error. this was the blowout. I had to tap down to cast a threat opening up for endbringer, which ate a plow, but a top decked land let him cast another endbringer. then he hit jitte. and that was that. If I had not misplayed I would have had batterskull on Mirran crusader:(

I honestly mentally check out after this one.

Match 9: Grixis delver (6-3, 14-7) on the draw
Game 1: involved turn 1 delver into probe see 3x flickerwisp, thalia, lands to cast them, turn 2 blind flip cabal therapy, take all 3 flickerwisp, I drew nothing relevant and bolt bolt at the end got me.
Game 2: involved prelate off of cavern on 1 and 2x moms. needless to say I won
Game 3: opener is awesome. plains waste, port, Path, thalia, serra. Here's where I know I'm mentally done. I path his turn 1 delver and run into daze. now, we all know that delaying a turn here is fine. and is the right play. I just forgot. ok, well delver flips, replay the island, delver #2, lets get thalia out there->daze #2. fuck. Turn 3 I've drawn another land and wisp. lets reset a delver and block? -> daze #3....OK then. turn 4 serra eats a bolt. turns out it was a 1 lander and if i'd played the way every single one of us knows how. He would have had an empty board to my awesomeness...

Match 10: Colorless elzdrazi (6-4, 14-9) draw

Game 1: eye, mimic mimic. Vial. TKS swing 8. take my SFM-> turn 3 smasher
Game 2: chalice 1, 4/4 endless, TKS, TKS, Smasher, smasher......

I had fun. I think the deck is well positioned even with the hate coming. I think I'd like to cut a Gideon and try 1 palace jailer. I will definitely be looking to try faster interaction over RIP.

[deucegg]

@iatee:

really like your current list. i've been playing with a similar list online ever since i saw yours, including Aven Mindcensor maindeck which seems quite reasonable, given your playing ghost quarters and path to exiles in your board. However, I'm not sure whether going down to 2 revokers is a good idea. I've been struggling with cutting down to 3 earlier, so going down to 2 is something I dont really want to do... Any experience worth sharing regarding this? does playing recruiter make up for only playing 2?

apart from that, do you think cataclysm is necessary in your board? miracles should be a pretty good matchup already, and lands/ 12 post get easier with ghost quarters ( and prelates for lands)

[Ancestral]

@iatee:

really like your current list. i've been playing with a similar list online ever since i saw yours, including Aven Mindcensor maindeck which seems quite reasonable, given your playing ghost quarters and path to exiles in your board. However, I'm not sure whether going down to 2 revokers is a good idea. I've been struggling with cutting down to 3 earlier, so going down to 2 is something I dont really want to do... Any experience worth sharing regarding this? does playing recruiter make up for only playing 2?

apart from that, do you think cataclysm is necessary in your board? miracles should be a pretty good matchup already, and lands/ 12 post get easier with ghost quarters ( and prelates for lands)

i´m testing a similar list too with 2 surgicals 1 RIP sideboard, against lands with 4 prelates (2 main + 2 side ) and surgical for early interaction i feel RIP can be replaced, and i had the exact same though, i had cataclysm against miracles but ended up beeing cliqued way, and against lands (2 different matches ) i won with both cataclysm in hand. i think its safe to replace the cataclsysm for the time beeing.

[iatee]

Cataclysm might be overkill and is definitely not necessary to beat Miracles if you have 4 Prelate in the 75 + something like a Pithing Needle, though I do think we have more of a target on our back than we used to so it's not terrible to put a little more in our board. I wanted something that was good against Eldrazi/Miracles/Shardless the overlap is 'wreck their manabase' and Cataclysm also conveniently mostly-wraths Eldrazi. I don't think there's any good tutorable creature to play this role and the best alternative big-mana-play seems like it's Gideon. I think he's worse against almost all of those decks, I've only really tested it a lot vs Miracles, where a resolved Gideon is 'I probably win?' and a resolved Cataclysm is 'I definitely win'. The other I-Cataclysm-U decks (12-Post/Lands/MUD) aren't really worth worrying about once you're playing infinite Wastelands / Chalice-your-deck, but it's not really there for them.

I don't find myself tutoring for Revoker *that* often, kinda feel like when I do I'm playing from behind e.g. uh oh they got a Jitte/Jace. Replacing the Relic Warder in my list with Revoker gets you back up to 3 and is totally fine, Revoker is definitely more 'generally good' and Relic-Warder more of a Dnt/Eldrazi meta-call. But I think if you go hard on the PTE sb you also want extra ways to eat Chalices vs the people who happened to keep them in.

[AsmodeusDM]

Obviously it's a "dead" card in the mirror and most importantly vs. Eldrazi but after reading through numerous tourney reports I kept seeing a trend emerge over numerous games both game 1 and post-boards...

"I played Prelate on X and the game was basically over"

I have continued to be impressed by the power of Prelate to shut down games and feel like it's impact is high enough that even casting it on turn 4 or 5 (say after a turn 3 recruiter or to vial it in) can be enough to seal up the game (as opposed to say THC).

I am still concerned about the ability of our deck to deal with the spat of super-quick combo and non-blue decks but I think that with Eldrazi already being such a questionable match-up I don't mind having more bad cards if it just shuts off other decks. Including naming "2" on lands.

Additionally I'm in love with the idea of us play 61 cards via a 24th land; last week I played in two local tourneys with 61 cards via 22 lands + 2 Chrome Mox and was beyond impressed. Given dead cards in tons of match-ups (usually the anti-creature cards or the anti-spell cards) I had plenty of use for the cards to accelerate out pieces of hate.

In some ways I felt like having chrome mox was like a poor man's aether vial. It let me play mana denial strats with my land while still advancing my board state. Like a game with a T1 Thalia into a 2nd turn port activation. Or the poor game where I played Aether vial on t1 and wasted my opponents land.

[CptHaddock]

In some ways I felt like having chrome mox was like a poor man's aether vial. It let me play mana denial strats with my land while still advancing my board state. Like a game with a T1 Thalia into a 2nd turn port activation. Or the poor game where I played Aether vial on t1 and wasted my opponents land.

I was actually thinking about this the other week and spoke to Finn about it. I was thinking 2 chrome moxes which basically act as pseudo vials 5-6 in place of 2 lands. I haven't played d&t in a long time but the games that I usually lost were the ones where I was forced to play "fairly" and not cheat via aether vial. I have not gotten the chance to test it out though, too busy grindstoning people :wink:.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

That's the exact mentality I took with the diamonds, but spells rather than lands because land drops are too important in the first turns, and unlike Miracles, we lack cantrips and Top to help us find our next lands. This is the primary reason I did it this way, rather than drop lands.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[AsmodeusDM]

That's the exact mentality I took with the diamonds, but spells rather than lands because land drops are too important in the first turns, and unlike Miracles, we lack cantrips and Top to help us find our next lands. This is the primary reason I did it this way, rather than drop lands.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

Given the rate of dead D&T cards in the form of bad options (Mom vs. Eldrazi; Thalia vs. Elves; SFM vs. Storm; etc.) and the number of duplicate legends we run (at least 4 Thalia) and cards that just lose their impact on the game (the 2nd or def. the 3rd SFM).. I find I always have cards that I want to pitch away.

To your point about wanting to hit land drops; I agree.. that's why I wouldn't want to use diamonds because they make me sacrifice land drops. Mox diamonds essnetially eat up a later land drop; ergo if i have 2 lands and a mox diamond.. I really only have 2 lands in my hand.. but if I have 2 lands and a chrome mox... I have access to 3.

[AsmodeusDM]

Also it's definitely a dead draw later in the game; but so is (most often) the unneeded 4th or 5th land.

[AsmodeusDM]

Here's the list I think I'm going to try at this weekend's Legacy classic in Columbus..

3 Mother of Runes

4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Phyrexian Revoker

3 Recruiter of the Guard
3 Sanctum Prelate
3 Thalia, Heretical Cathar
4 Flickerwisp

2 Chrome Mox
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
2 Cavern of Souls
9 Plains

I'm still working on a sideboard. The uptick in Reanimator makes me want to make sure I have enough interactions; but I don't want to over-do it.

2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Rest in Peace
2 Path to Exile
1 Pithing Needle
1 Manriki-Gusari (?????)

1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Containment Priest
1 Banisher Priest
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Vryn's Wingmare
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Leonin Relic-Warder

[AsmodeusDM]

Against Shardless what's the best number to call with Prelate?

0: For visions (if you know they are coming off suspend)

1: Only really shuts off 4x brainstorm; but gets difigures out of board

2: shuts of ADecay; Hymn; golgari charm out of board

3: Lili; pulse; toxic deluge


I feel like 2 is probably the right number; but I know we all live in fear of that Toxic Deluge for 2 or 3 wiping us out completely.

[Colin]

Against Shardless what's the best number to call with Prelate?

0: For visions (if you know they are coming off suspend)

1: Only really shuts off 4x brainstorm; but gets difigures out of board

2: shuts of ADecay; Hymn; golgari charm out of board

3: Lili; pulse; toxic deluge


I feel like 2 is probably the right number; but I know we all live in fear of that Toxic Deluge for 2 or 3 wiping us out completely.

Unless I am all in on crusader/jitte or SoFI I always name 3. Sometimes you have mom and wisp tricks for decay , but lili and deluge are both 1 for X's. D&T has better individual pieces, Sharldless is about value, so I err on the side of being ok with 1 for 1's

[AsmodeusDM]

Speaking of BUG.....

How do you / are you supposed to beat BUG Aluren??? When is the best time to interact with them; what are the pieces of hate to use (other than Prelate on 4) and how.

If they have Aluren in play; when should I be looking to interact; what do I need in my hand to hope to have a chance??

[Bi0zq3E&99]

Speaking of BUG.....

How do you / are you supposed to beat BUG Aluren??? When is the best time to interact with them; what are the pieces of hate to use (other than Prelate on 4) and how.

If they have Aluren in play; when should I be looking to interact; what do I need in my hand to hope to have a chance??

The best time to try to disrupt their combo is when Cavern Harpy is on the stack. Any other time they can just bounce Harpy and recast it in response. You can disrupt it in a number of ways, Swords to Plowshares, Jitte counters, Phyrexian Revoker naming Cavern Harpy, Ethersworn Canonist. Note that if they play Aluren and then cast another spell that's crucial to their combo you can respond with a Canonist to shut the combo off for that turn. Since a significant amount of our disruption is creature based we can use Recruiter of the Guard to search it out and then play it if Aluren is on the field. In general I think the best strategy is to hold your combo interaction until they're attempting to go off, while still building your board. For example, I would prioritize playing Thalia, GOT over Canonist, even though Canonist stops their combo because Thalia stalls them and you can just cast Canonist for free if they're trying to go off.

[colo]

Versus Aluren, also don't forget the power of Banisher Priest.

[iatee]

Aluren can combo through one removal spell if they know how to time the combo correctly, so don't think you're safe because you're sandbagging one. I guess you might want to leave yourself a chance that your opponent is bad and doesn't know how to combo through one removal spell. Basically they ensure that Strix is *not in play* when Cavern Harpy is on the stack through some fancy trigger stacking. If it happens to be because they've poorly sequenced, Banisher Priest / STP are online.

Leonin Relic-Warder (+ any other Disenchant, but this one is tutorable and 0 mana), Revoker, Ethersworn Canonist do stop the combo. But they play Abrupt Decay and Rec Sage main, plus discard for anything you're sandbagging. Plus tons of creatures to gum up the board. It's not a fantastic matchup.

Mirran Crusader is one of your best cards, cause you kinda just need to race them.

[mykatdied]

The way they work around removal is by casting cavern Harpy first. When the return trigger goes on the stack they cast the strix. If you try to remove strix they then pay the life to return harpy and then recast in response to get a new return trigger on the stack to save the strix. If they screw it up and cast strix first, then you have to answer it when they recast harpy and before it resolves.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Never mind, didn't read well enough...

[WashableWater1]

The way they work around removal is by casting cavern Harpy first. When the return trigger goes on the stack they cast the strix. If you try to remove strix they then pay the life to return harpy and then recast in response to get a new return trigger on the stack to save the strix. If they screw it up and cast strix first, then you have to answer it when they recast harpy and before it resolves.

You plow the Dream Stalker with its trigger on the stack. Most lists are only on 1 Dream Stalker so that can disrupt the combo.

[mykatdied]

You plow the Dream Stalker with its trigger on the stack. Most lists are only on 1 Dream Stalker so that can disrupt the combo.

The lists running 1 dream stalker are made as value decks with shardless agent as well and can still likely grind out value to bury us in card advantage.

Most lists that still focus on the combo use either 2 stalker/artic merfolk depending on which recruiter they are using.

[contra]

With my current list I'm running 61 cards main deck for the additional land. I dropped Thalia, Heretic Cathar because I'd much rather be playing Magus of the Moon. Mirran Crusader, Banisher Priest, and Leonin Relic-Warder are my main deck tutor targets of choice, with the later being an all star.

I'm really liking the 2 Simian Spirit Guides in the side to give me some speed against the decks I'd previously been having trouble against i.e. combo.

24 Lands
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Plains
3 Arid Mesa
3 Plateau

26 Creatures
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Flickerwisp
2 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Sanctum Prelate
2 Magus of the Moon
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Banisher Priest
1 Leonin Relic-Warder

11 Spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

Sideboard
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Ratchet Bomb
2 Council's Judgment
2 Rest in Peace
2 Path to Exile
2 Containment Priest
2 Simian Spirit Guide

I've currently been having more luck against Eldrazi with the following sideboard plan:
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Path to Exile
2 Council's Judgment
-2 Phyrexian Revoker
-2 Sanctum Prelate
-4 Mother of Runes
-2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

I'd appreciate any feedback on my list and would be happy to answer any questions.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I'm interested in going down to 2x Revoker, but it seems like a bad idea every time I look at what it's useful against, which is quite a bit, albeit not without a couple dead matchups. How has that been for you?

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[mykatdied]

Personally I am down to 2 Revoker. Often enough it is a reactive card to name something that we need to shut down which makes it a great recruiter target. Running less means you're less likely to find them when you really don't need/want them.

[Isre Morn]

I run 2 Revoker atm, too. Feels fine so far. If I need more shut down effects I bring in 2 Needles postboard.

[contra]

I'm interested in going down to 2x Revoker, but it seems like a bad idea every time I look at what it's useful against, which is quite a bit, albeit not without a couple dead matchups. How has that been for you?


I was also hesitant to drop revokers for the same reasons - they shut down many legacy staples and lower the curve of a deck plagued with 3 drops. Honestly though, I don't miss them too much as a lot of the time they were just a 2/1 colorless body. Deathrite is a common target - a nice target indeed, but your opponent only paid 1, and is more than willing to trade revoker with deathrite, making revokers body useless.

I really believe the matchup analysis for D&T needs to be completely redone as matchups which were previously labeled poor (lands for example) are now good for D&T, and vice versa (I've noticed deliver decks especially grixis have more game against us). While revoker does a ton of work when naming something high impact like a plainswalker or especially LED, I feel like more often than not it's just a 2/1 in the matchups I've had the most trouble with.

Also, splashing for red, I've had a lot of people suggest Sudden Demise, but I've found the sorcery-speed quite lack-luster. Ratchet bomb seems to fit the same role (but tutorable) for tokens and 1cmc creatures. Does anyone have any experience with the card?

[iatee]

Sudden Demise is very, very good against Elves, okay vs Pyromancer decks, and not particularly relevant vs anyone else. If my local meta were filled with Elves, I would run as many copies as I could, since it's one of the few cards that can reliably beat them.

Ratchet Bomb is much worse vs Elves (slow in a matchup where we already lose because we're too slow, hit by all the cards they're siding in - Abrupt Decay, Null Rod, etc.) but has far wider application - eats Chalices, tokens, Dread of Nights, Delver/DRS boards...

[contra]

Sudden Demise is very, very good against Elves, okay vs Pyromancer decks, and not particularly relevant vs anyone else. If my local meta were filled with Elves, I would run as many copies as I could, since it's one of the few cards that can reliably beat them.

Ratchet Bomb is much worse vs Elves (slow in a matchup where we already lose because we're too slow, hit by all the cards they're siding in - Abrupt Decay, Null Rod, etc.) but has far wider application - eats Chalices, tokens, Dread of Nights, Delver/DRS boards...

I'd think it'd be decent against True-Name Nemesis also...

[iatee]

*Eventually*, though having a solution for TNN that takes 4 turns isn't really ideal.

They should really make a Ratchet Bomb bear, that would be fun. Magus of the Ratchet.

[infiniteJ]

Little report.

Played this list to a top4 yesterday in our local quarterly:

4 Mother
4 SFM
4 Thalia GoT
3 Revoker
2 Serra Avenger
4 Flickerwisp
3 Thalia HC
1 Recruiter
1 Sanctum Prelate
4 Vial
4 STP
Jitte, BS, SoFI
4 wasteland
4 port
3 Karakas
3 Flagstones
9 Plains

SB
3 Path to exile
1 Councils judgement
2 Armageddon
1 Gideon
2 Rest in peace
1 containment priest
3 Canonist
1 Leonin Relic Warder
1 pithing needle

Rounds and notes:
R1 2-0 Mirror- Opponent inexperienced with deck. 3 toughness on Avenger was huge after throwing away 10 dudes to his Jitte.
R2 2-0 Merfolk- Opponent inexperienced as well. G1 he keeps a mana light hand and I revoker his vial and port him out. G2 He had jitte but drew TNN too late and never got going
R3 2-0 Miracles w/ 2 entreat- G1 was a long affair where he had to terminus his angels away. Recruiter chain with flickerwisp was great. Vialed in a mom EOT and then equip with SoFI to get there. G2 T1 mom eats a STP. T2 I misplay and play SFM which allows him to t3 snap plow it. I should have played the canonist, which I play on t3 with a mom. The canonist picks up a jitte on t4 and goes the distance. He didn't have a top and shows me a hand of snapcaster.
R4 2-1 Jund G1 Thalia HC combined with mana denial means he doesn't get to play. G2 He hymns me, hits my wasteland and port, then kills everything I play with a Lilliana Last Hope. G3 I draw rest in peace and it + a bunch of paths shut him down.
R5 1-1-1 Goblins Long drawn out G1 he has the nuts with lackey into mana denial on the play. I have no answers. G2 I grind him down with batterskull. G3 both went real long. Don't remember much except he earwig squaded my equipment and had lots of removal/artifact destruction for postboard games. Like 2 grips, grudge, tin street, md goblin ally guy.
R6 1-2 Maverick (Megadeus on here) I almost steal G1 with two flickerwisps and an avenger in the air after everything looking hopeless for about the first ten turns. Thalia HC really dampens his knight plan. G2 I get a batterskull going after he pridemages my jitte if I recall. I think we were both playing pretty loose and having a good time. G3 I have mom mom sfm batterskull if I recall and he has the three removal spells on teh key turn to take them all out.
R7 2-0 Dark Depths Infinite path to exile/STP/Flickerwisp/Karakas. Leonin Relic warder and flickerwisp allow me to turn off needle on wasteland.

Quarters
2-1 Goblins from swiss. G1 I have the nuts with like vial into port into jitte/thalia or something. G2 I keep a loose hand w/ 1 land on the draw knowing that he is playing controlling. He has the answer to my vial and has a port so I just end up discarding. G3 Grindy affair. I flash in containment priest on T3 and ambush a mana making 1/1 goblin, then almost punt on t4 by playing Thalia HC off the top instead of Avenger like I planned to opening myself up to pyrokineses I knew he had. Fortunately, I then play the avenger and take it home using ports and removal to keep him off enough goblins to gempalm it. Win the game with him holding a bunch of artifact removal.
0-2 Eldrazi My deck (and his) poop on me. G1 mull to 5 keep thalia1/thalia2 3 lands. Draw more thalia. He has a karakas. G2 he has ratchet bomb into a quick jitte. I have no answer and no removal.

All my opponents were awesome. Deck felt great.

Card choice thoughts:
Avenger- 3 toughness awesome vs massacre, jitte, punishing fire, tarfire, warping wail, etc. Flying very relevant.
Thalia HC- Always had impact, again maybe because of the matchups. Allowed wasteland to target fetches and their wastelands so I can protect port and allowed me to attack for lethal quite a bit. First strike great. Wouldn't argue it's a definite.
Recruiter- Was always happy to draw it, but it's definitely slow. The body did nothing for me. Could see a meta game where 0 is correct and I'd be hard pressed to be excited by a hand with 2 of them. So IMO 1-2 is probably right. I didn't ever want a lot of silver bullets.
Flickerwisp- Would play 8 if I could.
Prelate- Dead card for me all day. Maybe if I was paired against delver or lands, it'd be great. But it feels like a bad meddling mage to me.
Armageddon-Never drew it.
Relic Warder- Maybe should be MD if there continue to be a lot of fair decks in my meta.
3x Path- Was happy with. Could see 2 + blessed alliance since there are a lot of burn.
Pithing needle, council's judgement, etc- whatever.

The 3 drop spot is a conundrum for me. On the one hand, we have all these choices. On the other hand, they all have such wide range of applications and their power level can change dramatically based on what's in the meta. I didn't miss mangara even though I love the card. I could see running 3 recruiter, 1 banisher priest, 1 prelate or something. I never really understood crusader. The card never beat me when I played shardless bug and bug delver for years. That matchup is defined by deluge/lilly and abrupt decaying equipment. Maybe mindcensor has a place? More flyers would be great. For now, I'll stick with Thalia HC- it seems better than wingmare.

Also, I played an unpowered RW version in the vintage FNM and went 2-2 the night before using 4 md spirit guides. The only non-legacy card was strip mine. Monkey is sweet-went T1 kataki vs shops. Maybe we should test it in Legacy if the meta ever gets faster.

[Stevestamopz]

Also, I played an unpowered RW version in the vintage FNM and went 2-2 the night before using 4 md spirit guides. The only non-legacy card was strip mine. Monkey is sweet-went T1 kataki vs shops. Maybe we should test it in Legacy if the meta ever gets faster.

Gratz on your finish.

Sorry for de-railing from Legucci, but we had a Team Eternal event on Saturday, and I ended up being the Vintage player because I have watched about 2 matches of Vintage (which is 2 matches more than anyone else on our team has played). I ended up just brewing a R/W Taxes list which L10 and Chemicalburns worked on, ending up with this:


1 Black Lotus
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Containment Priest
4 Magus of the Moon
2 Sanctum Prelate
1 Scab-Clan Berserker
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Vryn Wingmare
3 Stony Silence
3 Spirit of the Labyrinth
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Flooded Strand
1 Karakas
2 Plains
2 Plateau
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath

SB: 2 Aegis of the Gods
SB: 1 Batterskull
SB: 1 Goblin Sharpshooter
SB: 3 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Kataki, War's Wage
SB: 1 Leonin Relic-Warder
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Stoneforge Mystic
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte

We ended up winning the whole event, and I ended up with a record of 4-1-1 with the deck.
Round 1: Shops: 2-1
Round 2: Eldrazi-shops: 2-1
Round 3: Dredge: 2-1
Round 4: ID
T4: Oath: 2-0
Finals: Gush Mentor: 1-2.

Deck was sick.

[Plague Sliver]

Going down to 2 Revokers really is a metagame call. I usually feel anxious going below 4 maindeck, because there are just so many things that it's good against. Maybe I'm just playing in a creature-heavy meta right now where every game 1 has the potential to be Gristlebrand or Jitte. Or maybe I'm just paranoid.

My sweet spot right now is 3, but it can be absolutely useless versus decks like Grixis Delver.


Deck was sick.

Agreed! Vintage looks sick overall :cool:

[Finn]

I have two Revokers, but I have been seriously missing the 3rd, and possibly 4th. Not willing to part with anything I have though, so it is more nights in the land of imperfection for me. I have a larger issue to question right now though...Perhaps I am getting old, but do you want your deck to be "sick"?


One more thing: Been seeing Belcher floating around again with the current rise in D+T. Thinking about revisiting Pithing Needles, but probably not more ridiculous measures because I think it is just a blip.

[Curby]

Perhaps I am getting old, but do you want your deck to be "sick"?

Naw son, D&T be the illest deck.

Revisiting Needles? What does your current Needle-less sideboard look like, and are you still on 3-4 maindeck THC?

[ParkerLewis]

I have two Revokers, but I have been seriously missing the 3rd, and possibly 4th. Not willing to part with anything I have though, so it is more nights in the land of imperfection for me. I have a larger issue to question right now though...Perhaps I am getting old, but do you want your deck to be "sick"?


One more thing: Been seeing Belcher floating around again with the current rise in D+T. Thinking about revisiting Pithing Needles, but probably not more ridiculous measures because I think it is just a blip.

If there really seems there is nothing you can part with, and you do miss the 3rd Revoker, that's typically the situation where going 61 cards would be justifiable. Unless you're already at 61, obviously :)

[Secretly.A.Bee]

This thread is frequented by the 61 card club, my friend. I'm pretty sure that more of us play 61 than 60 already. Plus, Kirbysdl is a frequenter of our thread, so there's that.

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[Plague Sliver]

Perhaps I am getting old, but do you want your deck to be "sick"?

Well...Vintage isn't exactly healthy, amirite? :tongue:

[iatee]

Do you guys happen to think that everyone else in magic is wrong about not playing 61 cards and legacy DnT players happened to be the ones who discovered this secret tech? That for some reason legacy DnT just happened to be the perfect deck for this bold strategy?

The most obvious reason why this is wrong *especially* for DnT is that we are essentially an Aether Vial combo deck. Your win % with t1 Vial is massively higher than your win % without it. You are shaving a .5% chance of having it in your opening hand by doing this, which means 1/200 games go from being 65% to win to 45% to win, or however you want to weigh the EW % of t1 Vial hands. If we had an Aether Vial in our opening hand every game, we'd be the best deck in legacy. Doing something to ensure that you have it *less* often is crazy. If you could submit a 59 card deck, I would in an instant.

It is suboptimal in a way that will be barely noticeable, you can do a lot of small suboptimal things to a good deck and still win most of the time. But it is very obviously suboptimal.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

You are welcome to your perspective, but I've played this game too long for me to agree with your sentiment.

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[iatee]

Math is not a sentiment.

[Medea_]

Here's an article (http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?p=627) for those of you interested in 8-Thalia decks.

[Curby]

You are shaving a .5% chance of having it in your opening hand by doing this, which means 1/200 games go from being 65% to win to 45% to win, or however you want to weigh the EW % of t1 Vial hands..


Math is not a sentiment.

Math is not a sentiment, but this goes way beyond math.

Deckbuilding is a series of choices based on highly personal priorities and conflicting goals. Reducing the chances of getting an important card by 0.5% is obviously bad, but that's not the only effect of including another card. You're right to bring up the importance of Vial, and the dangers of reducing the chances of seeing it. At the same time, it would be narrow-minded to only focus on maximizing Vial chances to the detriment of everything else. If first turn Vial was really all that mattered, we'd maindeck 4 Serum Powders to find them.

What if we add a 24th land to more consistently develop our mana? I'd say that the ability for modern builds to consistently hit 3 sources on turn 3 is extremely important, and a build with a ton of 3-drops could easily benefit enough to balance the 0.5% reduced chance of opening on Vial. But that leads to asking questions about why you're running a ton of 3-drops, and whether the slower resulting deck is worth the power of the 3 CMC spells. Trade-offs. Personal preferences. Sentiments. You correctly bring up "however you want to weigh" things above, because these trade-offs matter a lot and vary from player to player.

My goal is not to see a bunch of 61-card D&T decks. My goal is to see better D&T decks. In that vein, I'd like to encourage people to more seriously consider all aspects, both positive and negative, of adding another card. If you've done that analysis and come down strongly on the side of 60, I'm happy with that outcome. I'd just hope you're tolerant of others who've done their own analysis and ended up with a different conclusion.

[Quasim0ff]

Do you guys happen to think that everyone else in magic is wrong about not playing 61 cards and legacy DnT players happened to be the ones who discovered this secret tech? That for some reason legacy DnT just happened to be the perfect deck for this bold strategy?

The most obvious reason why this is wrong *especially* for DnT is that we are essentially an Aether Vial combo deck. Your win % with t1 Vial is massively higher than your win % without it. You are shaving a .5% chance of having it in your opening hand by doing this, which means 1/200 games go from being 65% to win to 45% to win, or however you want to weigh the EW % of t1 Vial hands. If we had an Aether Vial in our opening hand every game, we'd be the best deck in legacy. Doing something to ensure that you have it *less* often is crazy. If you could submit a 59 card deck, I would in an instant.

It is suboptimal in a way that will be barely noticeable, you can do a lot of small suboptimal things to a good deck and still win most of the time. But it is very obviously suboptimal.
Git probe and Taxes?

[iatee]

I'm tolerant of them...they're just wrong.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I'm tolerant of them...they're just wrong.
...and this is the sentiment I was referring to. Obviously.

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[Adan]

...and this is the sentiment I was referring to. Obviously.

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That kind of sounds like not believing in maths. Or vaccines. Or climate change.

The mathematical analysis only offers you the outcome that a 61 card list can't be better than a 60 card list. You have a slightly decreased chance of hitting 1st Turn Vial, yes, but at the same time you have to extend the probabilities for other cards like Mother of Runes on turn 1 is usually also a very strong 1st Turn play. In addition tp that you have a slightly decreased chance to hit 2nd Turn Thalia/SFM/Rishadan Port, meaning that overall your deck won't run/curve as smoothly as with 60 cards.
In addition to that, you are probably jamming in cards that have an intrinsic variance by themselves, being great in one matchup and absolutely dead on others (like most of the creatures played with the Recruiter toolbox now), which will further distort your statistics against certain MUs given that you'll test with a sample size of like a few hundred games.

So yeah. I'm with iatee on this one.

[Finn]

If deckbuilding were simply an exercise in mathematics it would be far simpler and boringer. Fortunately, mathematics are the baseline for deck design and not the goal.

The 61 card has a negative. I am intimately familiar with this argument. I am also entirely familiar with magic players using that calculation as a crutch. If, in your expert opinion, taking any one of the 61 cards out of the deck is a greater negative, the 61 card is justifiable and correct. That is just a tall claim to make, which is why I for one, am not about to claim it is correct. But the analysis that got me there has nothing to do with math and everything to do with good understanding of the game.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

That kind of sounds like not believing in maths. Or vaccines. Or climate change.

And the above is non-sequitor and therefore fallacious reasoning. I choose to interpret the data differently, not incorrectly. I have not ignored the math.

Some of you are all too ready to hop on a self-righteous band wagon. I'm not asking you to agree, only to be tolerant of other people and their ideas. You say you are, but you aren't. Instead, just shut your mouth and silently recognize that you disagree and move on.

Ignoring math is what you two are doing. Just give the last article put up by medea/kirbysdl a second read and understand that some people weigh risk/reward situations differently than you do.

I'm over this topic. Can we keep talking about the deck?