[Deck] Death and Taxes [Archive] - Page 3

leander?

03-11-2009, 06:22 PM

Good evening,

I've been testing D&T for some time a couple of months ago and recently picked it up again with very good results (mainly MWS though). I used the following very basic list:

11 Plains
4 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
3 Flagstones of Trokair

4 Æther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Cataclysm
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Umezawa’s Jitte

3 Stonecloaker
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 Flickerwisp
4 Serra Avenger
2 Jotun Grunt
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3 Samurai of the Pale Curtain

Even though it worked very solid I liked the idea of splashing black for Dark Confidant a lot. Getting in some scrublands and Confidant's shouldn't be that hard, so I just cutted 6 Plains and 1 Flagstones for 4 Flooded Strands and 3 Scrublands and 3 Cataclysm (really good in control matchups, wich are about the hardest possible, but not that spectacular in an aggro-control meta wich exists over here) for the 4 Dark Confidants. With this edits I came to the following list:

5 Plains
4 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scrubland
2 Flagstones of Trokair

4 Æther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Umezawa’s Jitte

3 Stonecloaker
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 Flickerwisp
4 Serra Avenger
4 Dark Confidant
2 Jotun Grunt
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3 Samurai of the Pale Curtain

(SB 3/4 Cataclysms)

(I don't suppose it's necessary to explain my choice for playing Confidants. Anyone will understand Confidant is really good and at the same time realize that you will have to pay a price for it: Weaken your manabase. I am fully aware of this cost, but for now I think it's worth it)

Obviously, taking 10 cards out and putting 11 in results in a sub-optimal 61-cards-deck. Wich should be solved. Now comes my problem: what's best to cut to get to 60 cards?
I feel like its best to take out a 3 cmc card so your average manacost will be a litte lower and Confidant will be less suicidal. So Mangara, Ring, Flickerwisp and Stonecloaker are all options to cut to 2. Even though I don't like the idea of having less Managaras the other three are options for sure.
What are your thoughts about it?

And as a whole new question: If you're already splashing black, would Vindicate be worth it? And if so, what should I cut for it? Oblivion Ring seems like a worse mono W Vindicate, so I might cut the rings for it, but you can't do Flickerwisp tricks with Vindicate..

Thanks.

Edit - A third question: What do you guys think about Kitchen Finks? He seems pretty awesome with Stonecloaker and Flickerwisp (Not only becouse of the lifegain, but also becouse of the persist counter. Not even to mention the synergy with Cataclysm).

Finn

03-17-2009, 01:32 PM

Hi, Leander. Sorry for the response delay. In a W/b build, I like Tidehollow Sculler a helluvalot. It is great with Flickerwisp and Stonecloaker (you can get 2-for-1 on the discard). And Confidant is a great choice. But you should also consider Vindicate. Anyway, a lot of people are looking to a Cataclysm-free or reduction in Cataclysm build recently. Let me show you what is being bandied about.

3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Serra Avenger
4 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Umezawa's Jitte

3 Mangara of Corondor
4 Flickerwisp
3 Stonecloaker
3 Oblivion Ring

4 Karakas
4 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory (or Rishadan Port)
11 Plains

SB options are similar to what they had been. The mana has been reconfigured to operate w/out Cataclysm. This build is better designed to fight aggro-control than its predecessor. Largely Flickerwisp is the reason we can play w/out Cataclysm. It hoses a lot of the decks we needed Catqaclysm for. Flickerwisp is awesome anyway - so much fun and so often a 2-1 on a discounted mana cost. Did I mention that Flickerwisp is teh nutz?

Finks is good, but the meta does not call for it. And it does not disrupt.

Gui

03-18-2009, 01:30 PM

I don't know if I'm allowed to ask this question, but I don't want to read 11 pages to figure it out, so, here it comes: Have Enlightning tutor been considered in this deck? It seens so useful to fetch vials, jittes, oblivions and random MD artifacts/enchantments... It fells like you could abuse it a lot...
Just thoughts though...

CaptShetz

03-18-2009, 02:32 PM

@ Gui Brasil, re: Enlightened Tutor

MD tutor targets:
Aether Vial
Umezawa's Jitte
Oblivion Ring
Ethersworn Canonist

Being able to turn 1 tutor for a turn 2 Canonist seems really good vs combo. But against anything else, I think it really just tutors for Oblivion Ring.

Most of the time, I feel like I don't need to tutor for enchantment/artifacts, but creatures. A better Eladamri's Call, where art thou? :P

leander?

03-18-2009, 03:20 PM

@ Gui Brasil: some pages ago Urdjur suggested the following list with ET and wethered wayfarer.

I've been working on improving the Landstill and combo MU and I think I've finally found a list I'm happy with. It features two things that have been discussed before without really reaching a consencus: Wayfarer and Tutor.

LANDS (22)
12 Plains
3 Karakas
1 Dust Bowl
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Maze of Ith
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Mistveil Plains
1 Wasteland

CREATURES (21)
-1cc
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3 Weathered Wayfarer
-2cc
4 Serra Avenger
2 Jötun Grunt
1 Epochrasite
1 Ethersworn Canonist
-3cc
4 Flickerwisp
3 Mangara of Corondor

SPELLS (17)
-1cc
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Enlightened Tutor
-2cc
1 Runed Halo
1 Umezawa's Jitte
-3cc
1 Aura of Silence
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Oblivion Ring

SIDEBOARD (15)
3 Cataclysm
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Abolish
2 Mine Excavation
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Tormods Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon

You know how Aether Vial is what makes the Landstill MU winnable? Well, Weathered Wayfarer does pretty much the same thing. It too brings in land removal or threat under standstill while thwarting counters. Wayfarer also lets us run juicy 1-ofs like Maze of Ith to help against other MUs, and works extremely well with the single Crucible in the ETutor (for instance sac Flagstones to Dust Bowl -> fetch Mistveil Plains + repeat to draw out plains; replay horizon canopy to draw cards etc).

Epochrasite is such a great 1-of when you play 4x Vial + 4x Flickerwisp + 3x Tutor in the main. He's a tough threat to deal with - only StP works, and there's always the Vial+Flickerwisp to prevent that. Recurring the singleton Mishra (through crucible or grunt/mistveil + wayfarer) also spells trouble for control decks.

The ETutor toolbox gives you game 1 options against every deck in the field:
*Ethersworn Canonist: Fetch as soon as you realize you're playing against storm combo. Good against Eva Green, Thresh and Landstill too, to name a few (though hardly fetch worthy in these MUs).
*Runed Halo: Covers A LOT! Combo win cons (belcher, tendrils, grindstone etc), scepter/chant lock, Pro:W or shrouded dudes like Troll Ascetic, expected discard/burn - or just use it to take out a creature such as Tarmogoyf.
*Umezawa's Jitte: Crucial against burn game 1, but useful against almost anything. Don't expect this to help much games 2-3 against burn though (they almost certainly have SB artifact hate). CoP: Red however, will.
*Aura of Silence: Very good against Deed, Disk and to a lesser extent Explosives. Silver bullet game 1 against enchantress/affinity/stax. Also very useful to just remove something, like Counterbalance or Needle.
*Crucible of Worlds: Good against LD to protect Karakas, but just generally neat with Wayfarer and the land toolbox.
*Ghostly Prison: Game 1 silver bullet against Ichorid! As always, they can steal games if they get 20+ power on the board turn 1-2, but all Ichorid players know that GP/Propaganda is bad news game 1 (that's why Ray of Revelation comes in games 2-3, but then you have more hate). Of course, GP is good against almost every aggro deck - often even more useful than Cataclysm. Also a silver bullet against Empty the Warrens.
*Oblivion Ring: Not really needed against any deck, but not really bad against any deck either (except perhaps burn). Against Landstill, this and Aura of Silence are your only game 1 outs to Humility (since it thwarts Mangara). Anyway, too good not to include since you can 2-for-1 it with Flickerwisp.

The sideboard features Boseiju (!) together with Cataclysm, Abolish and Mine Excavation - all of these hate on Landstill, but of course have lots of uses in other MUs as well. I side in Mine Excavation in maybe 50% of all matches, since opponents always side in art/ench hate if they can. This also makes me prefer Crypt over Relic, since I can recur it. Wheel is a wicked card against anything with Dredge, and is good against the Modular mechanic in affinity too (it's much like a stronger SotPC that works with ETutor/Excavation).

I'm extremely happy with this deck now, even its performance against Landstill, combo and ichorid. It's all about tweaking it to your specific meta, and it will run like a well-oiled machine. Kudos to Finn and all you others who keep this archetype alive.

P.S. If you think this list is very different from the standard version, it really isn't. For example, instead of running 3x Oblivion Ring, I run
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Aura of Silence
1x Runed Halo
1x Maze of Ith

Instead of 3x Cataclysm main deck, I run these tutor targets for mass permanent control, and keep the clysms in the board:
1x Ghostly Prison
1x Aura of Silence

Instead of Stonecloaker and SotPC, I have Ghostly Prison for Ichorid hate (with more hate in the SB), and Wayfarer to give me more effective Karakas slots to compensate for Stonecloaker's bouncing etc. The added benefit of running tutors is that you get more versatility without loosing consistency. But it makes an already complex deck even harder to play since you now have two toolboxes to consider as well...

Gui

03-18-2009, 04:00 PM

Egokaite

03-25-2009, 02:40 PM

hi all, i'm actually pretty interested about this deck, but i think that it is a bit slow and lacking on draw...so what about that list?

3x Isamaru
3x Icatian Javelineers
4x Serra Avenger
2x Jotun Grunt
3x Samurai of the Pale Curtain
3x Mangara of Corondor
3x Stonecloaker
3x Flickerwisp
2x Mask of memory (draw engine)
2x Oblivion Ring
2x Jitte
2x Cataclysm
4x Vial
4x Sword

4x Karakas
3x Rishadan port
3x Windswept Heath
3x Savannah
7x Plains

i'm actually splashing with green for the S.B. because i like Gaddock Teeg against some kind of cards: Tendrils, FoW, E.E, moat, dread returns etc. but it's just an idea....btw i dont think that SamuraiotpC is synergic with Flagstones of Trokair so i prefer 3 fetch....i like javelineers against lackey, Bob, Welder and in combo with Stonecloaker or Flickerwisp we have often its counter refreshed and because this way we have 6 creatures + 4 sword on first turn against an early Threat
That's my first post so i'm sorry if i did any mistakes :)

chmoddity

03-31-2009, 03:01 PM

Egokaite, Gaddock Teeg is actually relatively weak from a purely anti-combo perspective. Now it does have that nice interaction with Karakas, but that is not as big a deal as you may be thinking. Ethersworn Canonist is about as strong an anti-combo bear as we can hope to ask for. And the deck really can't suport more than just those bears. The other creaures have to be bigger beaters. Also, if tyou are going green and not including Tarmogoyf - why?!?

@Mask of Memory - it's not a terrible plan, but since you have to actually hit the opponent, you may want Mother of Runes. And that is a different deck.

LegacyDan

03-31-2009, 07:13 PM

Hey Finn, its LegacyDan (got banned from Salvation for retarded reasons)

I know this is a little late, but I was wondering if you wanted to hear my musings from GP: Chicago w/ D+T.

LegacyDan

03-31-2009, 07:19 PM

Right... sorry for the question then, and thanks for the answer =)

So, the deck could possibly abuse the enlightning tutor... It seens a great idea, all of that...

In adition, I would personally include razor golems to be tutored, and/or maybe one, just to be tutored, legendary artifact creature to finish like Karn (i think he's the only one actually), and as stated before, all the artifacts/enchantments that could help with diferent situations...

Then the deck would be abusing not only the tricks, that are great, but also a huge card that is tutor, bringing solutions up...
Thanks for wasting your time reading =P

Hey dude, I spent some time testing an Enlightened Tutor version for Chicago and all I can really say is that you should only really play the deck if you are expecting a field of heavy combat decks or a group made largely of underdeveloped decks.

However, having a deck full of Toolbox choices is great if you are in the right shop.

Finn

04-01-2009, 09:00 PM

Of course I would! Tell us all your experience please.

BTW, on a developmental front, I am probably done with Cataclysm in the main from now on. The deck in the OP is, imo, outdated. I have to completely rewrite large portions of it.

LegacyDan

04-02-2009, 02:13 AM

I went 3-3 with D+T, the major disappointment I had was with Cataclysm (as I see others have found out).

1st round I went 1-2 against a very quick Zoo deck. This round went very quickly, the only reason I won one match was on the back of Flickerwisps and Stonecloakers. This helped keep his graveyard sparse and some bad blocks cost him a couple goyfs, but looking back I shoulda called judge (dudes cards were all foil with the exception of his lands, if ya get tha hint). 2-0 him

Round 2 was a weird Merfolk deck. Some excellent timing with some Diverts (sent back at my Jitte) won game one. Number 2 he just beat me out of the gate, a jitte and three lords beat me soundly. 0-2 him

3rd time around was a kid playing a Survival-Madness deck. Mangara and Flickerwisp got me the round 2-0. He did try to cheat by putting all his land under each other, to make it look like me had less open. Judge sided with me on this one, happily. 2-0 me

Round 4 was against a terrible Mono Red deck. Somehow he got game one, but Tividar and Jittes won the last two games. He tried to stall for time, but (and I HATE using threats of judge calls to get gameplay flowing) I dropped the j word when I tapped his lands via Ports and he would sit and just "think" with one card in his hand. This kid was also kinda slow, he never really grasped that my Isamaru was not worth the burn spells (I had Karakas out and ready everytime). 2-1 me

5th round was against and ELVES!!! deck w/ Prog. backup. This is one of the many times I was happy I had Aven Mindsensors mainboard. Fliers got me game one over an active Prog. Game two I won with a turn 1 Vial, turn 2 Abeyance, trun 3 vial Canonist, on his turn, with Mindsensor to wreck his tutor for his beatstick. 2-0 me

Number 6 is the one I hate the most, GUb thresh. round one was mine, but only after using every trick the deck has. Game got me PISSED: I had out a grunt and my hand was hovering over my deck while I was deciding what to hit, and he called a Judge. He claims that because my hand was over the deck that I missed the trigger. Judge told me to sac, after we exchange some words, and continue. Dang Grunt would have won me that match TO!!! GRRRR...... 3rd game he won soundly.

Afterwards I kicked myself for not taking Cataclysm out of the deck, Canonist would do much better.Honestly, I LOVE Aven Mindsensor in the deck. It looks horrible on parper, but in the tournement it served me very well. Tutors were everywhere, and Mindsensor screwed with a lot of decks.

leander?

04-02-2009, 07:35 AM

The deck in the OP is, imo, outdated. I have to completely rewrite large portions of it.
I would be very thankfull if you would. I'm very interested for your opinion about the next step of the deck.

overseer1234

04-02-2009, 07:53 AM

I am crrently playing this list whith good results:

Maindeck

4x Æther Vial
3x Umezawa’s Jitte

3x Flickerwisp
3x Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3x Mangara of Corondor
4x Samurai of the Pale Curtain (just to good, rapes so much random stuff...)
4x Serra Avenger
4x Silver Knight (could be knight of meadowgrain, epochrasite,... whatever the meta needs)
3x Stonecloaker

3x Oblivion Ring (to cool with flickwhisp)
4x Swords to Plowshares

1x Eiganjo Castle (testing but random good against sligh)
3x Flagstones of Trokair (bad whith samurai, but makes the sideboard cataclysm good)
4x Karakas
10x Plains
4x Rishadan Port

Sideboard
3x Jotun Grunt (extra beatz and disruption against loam, ichorid,...)
3x Tivadar of Thorn (Goblins will die)
1x Oblivion Ring (random slot, but I use it quite a lot...)
4x Runed Halo (against thresh it shuts of half their threats, also makes sure progenitus and the like don't run over you, and also helps against combo, but i wouldn't count on that)
4x Cataclysm (against everything that overextends: beïng it lands (Controll), creatures (goblins),... you name it...)

I've chosen to totally give up the combo matchup in favor of other matchups like loam and rock like decks. But for now it's packing out just fine.

smoky squirrel

04-02-2009, 09:16 AM

Wow, that looks like a good list! But i do not agree on the Eiganjo Castle. What would you save with it? Isamaru? Or Mangara? Is it worth the additional weakness vs Wasteland? Plus, to use it, you sacrifice two white sources (activation + its own mana production). But you know my opinion already.

overseer1234

04-02-2009, 10:57 AM

Wow, that looks like a good list!

Because it's allmost identical to yours...
(When did you start posting here again?)

But i do not agree on the Eiganjo Castle. What would you save with it? Isamaru? Or Mangara? Is it worth the additional weakness vs Wasteland? Plus, to use it, you sacrifice two white sources (activation + its own mana production). But you know my opinion already.

We have indeed discussed this already and until I get really screwed by the castle (Either by blood moon or wasteland) I'm not cutting it. and yes protecting isamaru to block a threshed mongoose/confidant/kitchen finks/random stuf is pretty useful from time to time.

It just adds to this decks (already really large) bag of tricks.

Finn

04-02-2009, 11:52 AM

Thanks for the report, LegacyDan.

I think that in the current environment of aggro-control everywhere, Cataclysm is a really weak card. I just updated the OP with a newer design.

About Aven Mindcensor, I have like that card as well. I never have the chance to give it a proper test, but it seems to be a bit weak. Was it a useful attacker for you?

LegacyDan

04-03-2009, 12:31 AM

+Mindsensor has flying, works well with Jitte
+Flash, a plus for tricking others when Vial is tapped
+CMC of 3, great since vial usually sits at 3
+"taxes" the deck, which completely laughs at Sac Lands/Tutors

-Only 1 toughness, kinda a drawback but Mindsensor either dies quickly or lasts FOREVER

I found that Aven Mindsensor worked wonders at Chicago, whether if it was to mess up someone trying to fix their mana or even stopping Progenitus from hitting the field. It proved its worth to me, and seeing as the deck itself is going away from the Cataclysm days I have a feeling I will be running them for a while.

Ceridan

04-03-2009, 04:16 AM

Hi Legacy Dan!

Could you please post the list you used in Chicago?

Teumie

04-03-2009, 03:10 PM

In my opinion, ethersworn canonist is a bomb is this deck, at the moment i play 3 main and might even consider 4 (it is so good against most of my meta, does not hinder myself and is a 2/2 for 2 mana)
on aven mindcensor, personally, i like it a lot, i play it main 3 times. It is excellent against fetch and tutor and it flies.
plus, you do not have to bounce another creature (the only other 3 mana dude who flies requires that, which can sometimes be a pain in the ***)

i do find myself mana screwed from time to time, getting 2 white is not always that easy (4 karakas and 4 port)

anyway, dropping the cataclysm and including canonist really does wonders in my meta :cool:

leander?

04-04-2009, 05:30 PM

the only other 3 mana dude who flies requires that
Where has Flickerwisp gone to, then?

I have a question for Finn (or anyone else who thinks he knows the answer;)). What are the Forge Tenders for in your OP list? Isn't Tivadar enough aiganist Red aggro?

Forbiddian

04-04-2009, 07:29 PM

Where has Flickerwisp gone to, then?

I have a question for Finn (or anyone else who thinks he knows the answer;)). What are the Forge Tenders for in your OP list? Isn't Tivadar enough aiganist Red aggro?

Also Ichorid.

LegacyDan

04-04-2009, 07:49 PM

Hi Legacy Dan!

Could you please post the list you used in Chicago?

Deck

Creatures:
3x Aven Mindcensor
3x Mangara of Corondor
3x Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3x Stonecloaker
4x Serra Avenger
3x Jotun Grunt
3x Flickerwisp

Enchantments:
3x Oblivion Ring

Artifacts:
4x Aether Vial
3x Umezawa's Jitte

Instants:
4x Swords to Plowshares

Sorcery:
3x Cataclysm

Lands:
9x Plains
4x Rishadan Port
4x Flagstones of Trokair
4x Karakas

Sideboard:
4x Abeyance
1x Cataclysm
4x Ethersworn Canonist
3x Tivadar of Thorn
3x True Believer

I am about to start changing this around a little, but this is the list I took to Chicago.

Pienterekaak

04-06-2009, 04:19 AM

Hi all,

Im going to play at a small tournament soon, and with my team we decided to try the green splash build. This tournament will mostly consist of aggro (1 goblin and 1 elf deck spotted).
My team convinced me to try runed halo, which i agreed opon becouse most decks in the meta here rely on 1 or 2 creatures to kill (dread still, Team America, thresh) its also good against combo. About aven mindcensor, when i played it, it wasnt really that great (although i must admit i didnt play it for long) i rather have flickerwisp. Thats why im going to try a build with 2 stonecloacker, stonecloackers are great, but they suck if you dont have a creature in play. And like Finn, i love flickerwisps :P

Btw, what are your thoughts about 3 isamaru's? ok, its a 1 drop.. and it can chump block a goyf with karakas.. but apart from that, it doesnt really do alot. So how about cutting 1 of those and add a canonist/grunt/mangara?

this is the list im planning on playing:
Creatures:
3x Ethersworn Canonist
3x Mangara of Corondor
3x Isamaru, Hound of Konda
2x Stonecloaker
4x Serra Avenger
2x Jotun Grunt
4x Flickerwisp
4x Goyf

Enchantments:
3x Oblivion Ring

Artifacts:
4x Aether Vial
3x Umezawa's Jitte

Instants:
4x Swords to Plowshares

Lands:
6x Plains
3x Savannah
4x Heath
2x Rishadan Port
2x Flagstones of Trokair
4x Karakas

Sideboard:
4x Runed Halo
3x Cataclysm
3x Wheel of sun and moon
2x Gaddock Teeg
3x Krosan grip

chmoddity

04-06-2009, 09:50 AM

I think you are going to run into the same problem everyone does when they splash. Only 7 green mana sources and no search.

Pienterekaak

04-06-2009, 09:58 AM

true, but then again, i only need 1 green mana, and vial helps too. but ill test this for a while, and see how many times it works against me. (first test is gonna be a tournament :P )

LegacyDan

04-07-2009, 12:40 AM

About aven mindcensor, when i played it, it wasnt really that great (although i must admit i didnt play it for long) i rather have flickerwisp. Thats why im going to try a build with 2 stonecloacker, stonecloackers are great, but they suck if you dont have a creature in play. And like Finn, i love flickerwisps :P

Oh, don't get me wrong, Aven Mindcensor should NEVER be played over Flickerwisp. The Aven is good, but Flickerwisp just makes the deck awesome.

whitescorpion

04-07-2009, 02:13 PM

If you are splashing green for goys, why not go with Horizon Canopy?
Gets you some card draw in a pinch, and the 1 loss of life is almost never a big factor.

Also, I have often had matches with 2-3 Karakas. Why not swap the 4th one for an Eijango castle? I have a decklist that I will post soon. So far, i think the most dissapointing creature has been Samurait of the Pale Curtain as I have no faced threshold as much as I'd like to.

Pienterekaak

04-07-2009, 02:52 PM

If you are splashing green for goys, why not go with Horizon Canopy?
Gets you some card draw in a pinch, and the 1 loss of life is almost never a big factor.

true, but i can fetch for savannah, not for canopy. thats why i would rather play it over canopy, but thank you for your advise, i want my list as strong as possible

Finn

04-07-2009, 03:20 PM

Whitescorpion, I dont' really play with Samurais any more. It turns out that Canonist has a habit of hurting most of the same decks that Samurais do and better. And it also hurts a bunch of others even more.

I have tried a few different splashes and I always come back to mono white. I suppose everyone must see for themselves what works for them.

Pienterekaak

04-14-2009, 04:52 AM

ok, i finished my tournament :) became close to 10th place, only loosing to ichorid and elfball.
ichorid was against a friend, so i didnt mind,
but the elfball guy won his first game on luck (he had 3 summoning pacts.. so he could search for enough combo pieces even when i flickerwisped 1 of them)
and second time i kept a hand with 2 land, canonist and clysm. but i dont draw lands for 5 turns.. so i loose

but the deck did quite good, although i must admit that the green splash never felt great. Goyfs were almost always 2/3 - 3/4.. which is not that impressive..

then a team member came up with the idea of a black splash for..... bitterblossom.
its completely differend from the normal stratigy of the deck, but i think its worth a try, since i already play jitte (which won me alot of games in the tournament btw) and it chumpblocks goyfs for 1 life.

so ill test it, and see if it makes a good secondary win condition. tidehollow scutter also seems interesting, but i cant afford to have too many cards in my deck requiering black mana..

leander?

04-14-2009, 06:03 AM

I do think that if you choose to splash, black is the way to go. Either for Bitterblossom, for Sculler or for Dark Confidant or Vindicate. But since you haven't got much open slots, I'd actually rather choose Dark Confidant over Bitterblossom, Becouse Dark Confidant gives you something that the deck normally doesnt have, while Bitterblossom doesn't as far as I see.

humppa

04-14-2009, 06:08 AM

What's about blue splash for Momentary blink? :-)

Pienterekaak

04-14-2009, 06:09 AM

well i prefer ring over vindicate i think, if only becouse i can use flickerwisp to trick with it.
but indeed, confidant vs bitterblossom.. confidant can be quite good, but i usually have enough cards at hand, and alot of cards would hurt me alot (rings, wisps, stonecloaker, clysm and mangara are all 3+ damage)
so i wonder if you dont kill yourself too much with confidant?
and blossom also gives the deck a whole new way to win (gives you a clock when you lock him with mangara)

Finn

04-17-2009, 12:32 PM

@Pinterekaak, I honestly would go with Vindicate over Oblivion Ring for certain if playing black.

@humppa, There is a lot more to the deck than the whole blinking aspect. Momentary Blink is pretty bad in Legacy, and I would not be using it in this deck.

@leander?, I think I agree with all of this. The cards I would most like to manage if splashing are:

Tidehollow Sculler: great with Flickerwisp in the same way Oblivion Ring is, but it even works with Stonecloaker.
Dark Confidant: This guy's ability is sorely needed especially since most people have removed the Cataclysms from the main. You have mana to spare for additional cards more often.
Vindicate: The ability to hit lands is more important imo than the oblivion Ring shenanigans we can occasionally manage.
Thoughtseize: not great in this deck, but it removes problem cards, especially creature removal that might be aimed at the Sculler.

DrJones

04-18-2009, 02:25 PM

leander?

04-18-2009, 02:51 PM

Err.. you´re saying this is underwhelming after five goldfish games?:confused:
I'm not even going to talk about those points, just test it against some opponents before taking conclusions. Obviously this deck sucks against a goldfish..

LegacyDan

04-18-2009, 07:18 PM

Mordel

04-18-2009, 08:17 PM

@Dr.Jones

The thing with D&T that I noticed is that it seems very unimpressive when goldfishing it, but D&T is absurdly reactive. The deck in all honesty reminds me of old 1.x deck(pre-legacy) and current vintage fish decks. The elements that remind me of them are that every single card in D&T serves a purpose in specific matchups and in many cases; serves as an outright answer.

I haven't logged a lot of hours with the deck, but I have won more than a few matches that I probably didn't have any business winning because of the myriad of tricks and tools that the deck has. Most of the builds that I have played with require a very crafty and knowledgeable player piloting them. Not everyone has this knack. Some people are better-suited to play easier decks.

At a glance, someone that doesn't understand D&T will see a white weenie deck with a few fish and that is something very misleading about the deck because the deck's strength lies in its flexibility and how it will reward an intelligent player, rather than playing out the way most white weenie decks have in the past.

A typical scenario that I would play out with the deck is turn one doggy or vial, follow it with a port and basically disrupt my opponent all the way to the finish line, by tying up a few resources and/or invalidating whatever they play during their turn, all the while steadily beating on them with whatever beats I was able to curve out while disrupting their strategy heavily.

Absolutely none of these games were very fast unless my opponent scooped and all of them had a very annoyed opponent on the end of my dorks because it seems like the deck has a everlasting supply of pseudo-cheatyfaced tricks.

Five goldfish is such a grossly inadequate method of evaluating the deck that it actually suggests that you probably don't have any business playing the deck to start with, no offense.

Don't get me wrong here: D&T isn't the best deck in the format or anything like that, but it is an extremely good, fun, flexable and rewarding deck to pilot.

I actually have a question for the guys who play D&T a lot: is cataclysm really that underwhelming still? Things are seeming to revert back to decks that are not relying on one huge beater, like 'naught to win.

LegacyDan

04-18-2009, 09:28 PM

To be perfectly honest, I must agree that D+T is not a top contendor BUT it is an awesome to play (its what I use to test different playgroups/tourney scenes).

Honestly, if I see a resurgence of top tier decks that fear a timely Cataclysm then I myself will consider running them again. That is one of the main reasons I like this decks, its flexible. Well, that and people usually consider it "just another WW deck" like Mordel pointed out.

pandaman

04-19-2009, 07:49 AM

What about adding a bit of card draw in with a Mask of Memory or two? The latest list on www.deckcheck.net is here (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=25235), and includes 2 Mask of Memory.

I've run a Jitte + Mask + Steelshaper's Gift toolbox in White Weenie before (not D and T specifically) and getting a Mask on a Serra Avenger or a Soltari Priest (again not applicable here) really lets you churn out the cards. Because the Mask normally comes online after you have Vial in play or sufficent land in play you normally just end up drawing and tossing land in the bin, resulting in a juicy and very versatile hand!

DrJones

04-19-2009, 02:14 PM

Thanks, pandaman, that list looks a whole lot better than the one I tested yesterday. I've included 2 Mask of Memory now on my build to see if they are good, but so far they don't come up often. I will have to test them a bit more.

// Lands
10 [ALA] Plains (1)
4 [LG] Karakas
3 [TE] Wasteland
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory

// Creatures
3 [TSP] Mangara of Corondor
2 [CHK] Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3 [PLC] Stonecloaker
4 [TSP] Serra Avenger
3 [CS] Jotun Grunt
3 [EVE] Flickerwisp
3 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist

// Spells
3 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
4 [DS] AEther Vial
2 [MR] Mask of Memory
3 [10E] Pithing Needle

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3 [TSP] Tivadar of Thorn
SB: 4 [CHK] Samurai of the Pale Curtain
SB: 4 [PS] Orim's Chant
SB: 3 [NE] Seal of Cleansing

hjalte

04-19-2009, 03:30 PM

Being a big fan of Mangara, I've goldfished LegacyDan's deck about five times to get an idea of it. However, the results from the test weren't good enough to convice me to play it. That's how I feel about it.

1. Fun tricks
2. No acceleration
3. No punch. Weak critters
4. I don't control the board
5. I would be dead by now
6. I'm not sure this has a chance against control
7. No card draw
8. Mangara tricks are easily stopped

Totally underwhelming. ._.

I did the exact same thing. But a week ago, I went to a 20 man tournament bringing Death and Taxes and totally slaughtered everyone. They were good players, but was caught very much off guard which was to my advantage. I lost a single round to some survival combo deck, and then split the finals, as we didn't have time to play.

I played the following pretty standard list:

--LANDS (22)
3 Wasteland
3 Rishadan port
3 Flagstones of trokair
4 Karakas
9 Plains

--GUYS (24)
4 Serra Avenger
4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Flickerwisp
3 Stonecloaker
3 Jötun Grunt
3 Isamaru, hound of konda
3 Mangara of Corondor

--STUFF (14)
4 Æther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Umezawa's Jitte

--SIDEBOARD (15)
4 Orim's Chant
3 Samurai of the pale curtain
3 Cataclysm
2 Tivadar of thorn
1 Burrenton forge-tender
1 oblivion ring
1 jötun grunt

I would've played 3 forge-tenders, but I could only get one before the tournament.

Anyway, the deck treated me very well. I played against a wide variety of decks (survival combo, GW aggro deck, UGW threshold, UGWB countertop control, Goblins, Merfolk). I lost both matches against the survival combo deck. I had pulled my Aven Mindcensor from the board the evening before. They would have won me that match, singlehandedly, other than that, I lost a single match against the countertop control deck, one against the merfolk deck (t4) and won the rest.
The finals would've been against some BGW rock deck. I'm not sure exactly what it was, but it had deed's and vindicates. I would guess that's a pretty bad match-up, don't you think?

According to my minor testing before the tournament, and the games at the tournament, I would definately move one of the canonists to the side. They didn't do much in any of the matches, although it would have been nice to have them against threshold, but he always had a force or swords for it, and I couldn't save it :cry:

I thought about adding the last wasteland, and I think that would have been the correct choice instead of a flagstones. I would also never go below 3 stonecloaker. They are absolutely amazing. It was hard for me to keep my vials, they were often removed or countered, so the flash from stonecloaker was great. It's also amazing to have two stonecloakers, for infinite chumping.
The cataclysm from the side worked very well. They cleared the board against the aggrodeck, which is very nice. They also helped me quite a lot against the merfolk deck, as i cleared his land, leaving him with a single mutavault, he didn't draw another land, so i had plenty of time to beat him down.

overseer1234

04-19-2009, 06:54 PM

To be perfectly honest, I must agree that D+T is not a top contender BUT it is an awesome to play (its what I use to test different playgroups/tourney scenes).
What he said...

Honestly, if I see a resurgence of top tier decks that fear a timely Cataclysm then I myself will consider running them again. That is one of the main reasons I like this decks, its flexible. Well, that and people usually consider it "just another WW deck" like Mordel pointed out.

Cataclysm is great as long as your meta that doesn't contain a lot of agro-control decks like threshold.. And even then you should consider them as a sideboard option (for anything that overextends in "anything", being it lands (landstill) creature's (goblin) or whatever (rock/enchantress/staxx)

I'm having a lot of fun playing is deck and one thing I can say is this:
The deck is NOT forgiving, and the slightest misplay/timing error might (and probably will) just cost you the game that you could have won by making better calls.

This deck really requires you to know pretty damn good what your opponent is playing in order to make the correct play's for yourself...

LegacyDan

04-19-2009, 11:38 PM

I'm having a lot of fun playing is deck and one thing I can say is this:
The deck is NOT forgiving, and the slightest misplay/timing error might (and probably will) just cost you the game that you could have won by making better calls.

Ain't that a fact? Ya would figure a deck as fun as D+T would be forgiving to an unexperienced player, but it isn't. I haven't had to check my timing this much since I last played High Tide combos. lol

This deck really requires you to know pretty damn good what your opponent is playing in order to make the correct play's for yourself...

This is a problem I have seen, but with enough experience in the game itself you can usually figure out what the other player is using before your third turn (which I have found is when your choices start making the most impacts on the matches ending).

The Mask of Memory Idea seems to be an intereting way of solving the decks minor drawbacks. Its a nifty idea that does make use of D+T many flyers, they are the main reason Jitte (IMHO) is still in the deck. The only thing that worries me is the discarding part, but then again its just more food for our Grunts. Has anyone else tested them out?

pandaman

04-20-2009, 03:27 AM

I might give this a go:

4 Karakas
3 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
11 Plains

4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Serra Avenger
3 Flickerwisp
2 Jotun Grunt
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3 Stonecloaker

4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Mask of Memory
2 Steelshaper's Gift

board
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Jotun Grunt
3 Glowrider
3 Mana Tithe
1 Abeyance
3 Tivadar of Thorn

With the two Steelshaper's Gifts you essentially 4 Jittes and 3 Masks in the deck. I've got 3 Wasteland and 4 Ports because I don't have 4 Wastelands :tongue: and taken out 1 Flickerwisp, 1 Jotun Grunt and 1 Jitte from mainboard. In the sideboard take out a Forge-Tender and put in an extra Grunt, take out the Chant's and put in 3 Mana Tithe's and an Abeyance (again that's all I have). I really enjoy card draw in white weenie decks (I also enjoy counterspells, but that's another story) so I'd be excited if Mask of Memory worked in the list. The only problem is that you have two extra cards, the Steelshaper's Gifts, in the deck that don't do anything to disrupt the opponent, which slows down your "D+T disruption tempo" a little. Will the card draw be worth it?

Finn

04-20-2009, 12:10 PM

Pandaman, I think I would cut a Canonist instead of the Flickerwisp. In fact, I would sooner cut just about anything than a Flickerwisp. That creature is such a damned good card, and my favorite part is that the more you need help, the better it is. Canonist, on the other hand is in the unfortunate 2cc slot. In the past it was True Believer, then Samurai of the Pale Curtain. The cards keep getting better, but only incrementally.

johanessen

04-20-2009, 06:52 PM

Anyone tested red in this deck to include imperial recruiter?

Unknown2

04-20-2009, 06:57 PM

Anyone tested red in this deck to include imperial recruiter?

no need, it just slows the deck down more than we need

pandaman

04-20-2009, 08:47 PM

Pandaman, I think I would cut a Canonist instead of the Flickerwisp...

I think leaving 4 Canonists and cutting a Flickerwisp was just a knee-jerk reaction to getting beaten to a pulp by combo on the weekend:...eek: :cry:

Speaking of Samurai of the Pale Curtain, now that he's gone do you think you could bring in Flagstones of Trokair?

CaptShetz

04-21-2009, 01:07 PM

Speaking of Samurai of the Pale Curtain, now that he's gone do you think you could bring in Flagstones of Trokair?

Are you running Cataclysm MD? If yes, run Flagstones. If no, don't.

It opens you up to more hate from back to basics, magus of the moon/blood moon, etc.

Plus, the occasional legendary rule problem can occur.

Morim_Brightsmoke

04-21-2009, 04:27 PM

A little bit ago there was a couple comments about the black version with confidant and tidehollow sculler, what do people think of that version? Yes it opens you up to more non-basic hate, but a draw engine and more disruptive good guys, especially ones that already work well with the tricks built into the deck seems good.

pandaman

04-25-2009, 08:57 AM

I've just read the whole thread, and I want to apologise for bringing the Mask of Memory thing up again, it's already been discussed about 20 pages back.

I also want to ask advice about strategy versus Aggro Loam and. As far as I understand it Aggro Loam is an aggro/control deck. It seems whether you end up being aggro or control depends a lot on your starting hand. Jotun Grunt and Stonecloaker seem to be good against Loam, with Jotun Grunt putting cards you don't want coming back out of the graveyard on the bottom of their library and Stonecloaker removing them from the game and allowing you to take back the Grunt and reset its counters.

But I need advice on what are strong sideboard cards against Loam? Samurai of the Pale Curtain? Glowrider? Cataclysm? I don't really know...

Kuma

04-25-2009, 11:45 AM

SotPC, Glowrider, and Cataclysm are all weak against Aggro Loam. But really it's one of the traditional list's best matchups. They run around 11 threats and we run around 11 removal spells. We have Stonecloaker to zap Loams, Flickerwisp to reset Crushers, and up to seven protection from red creatures between the main and the boad (Silver Knight, Tivadar of Thorn).

Runed Halo, Tivadar of Thorn, Jotun Grunt, and Silver Knight are all strong options versus Aggro Loam. But it's the spot removal that carries the matchup.

pandaman

04-25-2009, 07:24 PM

Thanks mate. So with a maindeck list the same as Finn's on page 1 of this thread and a sideboard like this:

3 Tivadar of Thorn
3 Burrenton Forge Tender
4 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
3 Glowrider
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Jotun Grunt,

what should come out of the maindeck and what should go in?

I figure that Tivadar of Thorn, Burrenton Forge-Tender, Oblivion Ring and Jotun Grunt should come in from the board, but what the hell do I take out to fit them in? This is where I've been having a lot of problems, because the deck works so well as it is it almost seems like a crime to take things out!

Esper3k

04-27-2009, 03:13 PM

I'm a newcomer to this deck and I think the deck is really cool.

I'm just curious - has anyone ever had problems with things like Anarchy? How does the deck deal with something like that?

Thanks!

Kuma

04-27-2009, 03:40 PM

You handle Anarchy the same way you handle any sweeper: hold something back.

@pandaman

Give me a list and I'll tell you what I'd take out against Aggro Loam.

pandaman

04-27-2009, 05:58 PM

@ kuma

Thanks mate. Here's my list. Stock standard really, except the sideboard is a bit different.

4 Karakas
3 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
11 Plains

4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Serra Avenger
4 Flickerwisp
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3 Stonecloaker

4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Umezawa's Jitte

board
3 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Jotun Grunt
3 Glowrider
4 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
3 Tivadar of Thorn

The decks that are played in my meta are Goblins, Burn, Ichorid, Aggro-Loam, Geddon Stax, Elves and Reanimator, so I've tuned my sideboard to combat them. No one really plays combo, except for one deck that has Niv-Mizzit (spelling) card draw/damage combo and Counterspell on Isochron Sceptre. It's not really hard, just Wasteland the red dual land and bounce the legend with Karakas.

But Aggro Loam and Ichorid are the two main decks I don't like and don't know really what I should take out/put in...

My thoughts were:

For Aggro Loam...
+ 1 Jotun Grunt, + 1 Oblivion Ring, + 3 Burrenton Forge-Tender, + 3 Tivadar of Thorn... but then what the hell do I take out?

For Ichorid...

+ 1 Jotun Grunt, + 4 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
- 4 Aether Vial, - 1 ???????????

ebbitten

04-27-2009, 07:42 PM

against ichorid i would much sooner get rid of the oblivion rings or mangara before the aether vials, the vials give you a chance to surprise block a zombie and maybe remove their bridges, they also can speed of your clock substationally. Burrenton Forge tender also should come in against ichorid because of its self sac ability that lets you remove their bridges.
I would suggest for ichorid
-3 Oblivion Ring -3 Managara -2 Jitte
+1 Jotun +3 Burrenton +4 Samurai

Don't really know what to do for the aggro loam match other than bringing samurais and jotuns in and probably siding cannonists and maybe a jitte out.

Ceridan

04-28-2009, 02:15 AM

The Cannonist is quite good against aggro-loam. It leaves them with the choice to play either Loam or something else, not both...

Mordel

04-28-2009, 04:18 AM

The name of the game is effecacy: canonists will slow the loam player down for a turn or so before they kill it and aside from any time advantage gained, they leave no footprint behind on the game and are terrible in combat versus loam goyfs and giants...they even die to a Bob.

Samurais and grunts both have a tangible effect on the game after leaving play in most cases and can hold their own in a fight, both because of being 3/3s and 4/4s in combat and while also serving to make a graveyard smaller or stop it from getting bigger.

Between outright effect and stats, canonist is beat. Canonist also happens to be vulnerable to hull breach and that is just one other thing to worry about, albeit small.

In all honesty, I have never been particularly scared of grunts while playing my loam deck. The grunts need to be supported by some means of aditional disruption or a winmore engine, like mangara+wisps/karakas to concern me because my threat(s) won't be able to just wait while I am not bothering with dredging and waiting for a grunt to gorge himself to death.
Mask of memory strikes me as a very solid card in the match in that it shores up the issue of needing to attack both the man plan of loam as well as the loam plan by letting you rip through your deck quickly, finding additional pieces and keeping a grunt from burning out too fast. Samurai strikes me as a card that I would be bringing in as superfluous hate in that his staying on the table is not something to rely on necessarily, but is awesome to flash in response to things.

That is all in theory, but not unlikely scenario such as the above, grunt is a far more valuable time advantage tool than a canonist would be in that grunt will be forcing the loam player to either forfeit their turns in the hopes topdecks will be kind and yours will be poor or dredge away and only be able to get rid of your Karakas after they have been used once.

Most of the times that I have seen grunts, it has been against UGw CB decks which aside from CB, have fairly weak bad support for their grunts in regards to attacking loam's other strategies...unless they have a more dedicated sb. I don't want to talk about those stupid games of having ten pieces of hate brought in though.

Kuma

04-28-2009, 04:15 PM

The decks that are played in my meta are Goblins, Burn, Ichorid, Aggro-Loam, Geddon Stax, Elves and Reanimator, so I've tuned my sideboard to combat them. No one really plays combo, except for one deck that has Niv-Mizzit (spelling) card draw/damage combo and Counterspell on Isochron Sceptre. It's not really hard, just Wasteland the red dual land and bounce the legend with Karakas.

Silver Knight > Ethersworn Cannonist against Goblins, Burn, Ichorid, and Aggro Loam. In fact, of the decks you listed, Cannonist is only good against Elves and decent against Aggro Loam. Maybe they should be in the board or not in the 75 at all.

But Aggro Loam and Ichorid are the two main decks I don't like and don't know really what I should take out/put in...

My thoughts were:

For Aggro Loam...
+ 1 Jotun Grunt, + 1 Oblivion Ring, + 3 Burrenton Forge-Tender, + 3 Tivadar of Thorn... but then what the hell do I take out?

With your current list, I'd board -4 Cannonist, -1 Flickerwisp, -1 Wasteland, -1 Isamaru, +3 Burrenton Forge-Tender, +1 Oblivion Ring, +3 Tivadar.

If you replace Cannonists with Silver Knights, don't board in the Tivadars and take out an extra Isamaru or Wasteland.

For Ichorid...

+ 1 Jotun Grunt, + 4 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
- 4 Aether Vial, - 1 ???????????

+1 Jotun Grunt, +4 SotPC, +3 Glowrider -3 Mangara, -3 Oblivion Ring, -1 Cannonist, -1 Flickerwisp.

Ceridan

04-29-2009, 06:31 AM

I would say that the cannonist has lots of uses that you really don´t think about... All decks that play cantrips loose a lot of speed and if they play a goyf in their turn, you can plow them on the same turn without having to risk a FoW or Daze.

I played against sui+red yester day and vialed out a cannonist in response to a dark ritual (so he had 3 mana and no possibility to play spells). I know this sounds really far fetched, but these occurences start to happen each and every other game. People dislike him, so people usually use their removals against him, rather than saving them for your real threats.

Finn

04-29-2009, 12:59 PM

Mordel, I don't know how often you have played against this deck with aggro-loam, but the Grunt is about as good a card as you could ask for when fighting aggro-loam. The only time he is not a total bomb is when the aggro-loam player is way out in front on the board and you are low on life-aka about to lose anyway.

Samurai does little except in rare circumstances and against Ichorid, hence his diminishing role in general. So no argument there.

I think most players are still trying to nail down the role of Canonist. I recently went from 4 to 3 in my main, but I doubt I will be removing it from the main anytime soon. I am fairly sure that you have not played aggro loam against this deck with him dropped on you early on. He slows aggro loam down to a crawl. This card pays dividends in that matchup big time. Interestingly though, it seems to me that I win or lose this match based on how much removal I draw more than the particular creatures since most of D+T's guys have some sort of pertinent disruption or delay to throw at aggro loam, and Loam's guys are all big dudes.

I want to add that none of the cards in this deck are likely to make the opponent scoop up all by itself. That has always been the case with this deck. Rather, it is the stacking of annoying disruptive elements on the backs of small to medium attackers that does the job.

Kuma

04-29-2009, 03:04 PM

I am fairly sure that you have not played aggro loam against this deck with him dropped on you early on. He slows aggro loam down to a crawl. This card pays dividends in that matchup big time. Interestingly though, it seems to me that I win or lose this match based on how much removal I draw more than the particular creatures since most of D+T's guys have some sort of pertinent disruption or delay to throw at aggro loam, and Loam's guys are all big dudes.

The only time Aggro Loam plays more than one spell per turn is when they're in Loaming mode. If they're in Loaming mode, either they've got the Seismic Assault in which case Cannonist isn't even a speed bump, or they've got the Devestating Dreams and he's not even a speedbump. If they have neither of these, all he does is make Crusher and Terravore a little smaller, or at best force them to spend two turns wishing for DD and casting it instead of one.

Like you said, the match really comes down to the amount of removal you draw. And usually you'll draw more than enough removal. I haven't played a single game against Aggro Loam with Cannonist in the main, but I think I'd rather have Burrenton Forge-Tender, the extra Grunt, and/or Tivadar than Cannonist.

How would you board with his list? Cut more Isamaru and Wasteland?

baghdadbob

05-01-2009, 10:58 AM

Esper3k

05-01-2009, 11:17 AM

Quote-
4. How does the Mangara cheese work?
You tap him and return him with either Karakas or Stonecloaker (or "flicker" him from play with the wisp) while his ability is on the stack. Do not tap Mangara and ask "OK?". You have to respond with the unsummon effect before you ask for a response or you may not get a chance to.

Does this work? Do you still have priority?

Pretty much, yes.

When you tap him (to pay the cost of using his ability) and put the ability on the stack, you'll get priority back. Before you pass priority, you need to put the Karakas/Stonecloaker/Flickerwisp ability on the stack.

If you put Mangara's ability on the stack, then pass priority, if your opponent passes it back, it's too late for you to use an unsummon effect to save Mangara.

DrewliusMaximus

05-01-2009, 08:35 PM

Pretty much, yes.

When you tap him (to pay the cost of using his ability) and put the ability on the stack, you'll get priority back. Before you pass priority, you need to put the Karakas/Stonecloaker/Flickerwisp ability on the stack.

If you put Mangara's ability on the stack, then pass priority, if your opponent passes it back, it's too late for you to use an unsummon effect to save Mangara.

Oh man, are you going to playing D&T now Jeff?

Esper3k

05-02-2009, 10:45 AM

Oh man, are you going to playing D&T now Jeff?

I've been messing around with a deck that's not the main list, but has many similar elements to it.

pandaman

05-15-2009, 03:04 AM

What does everyone think about the new common Qasali Pridemage? I think that with it in BGw Threshold D&T's good match up with it goes out the window. I think that it's almost a more important removal target than Goyf now because without Aether Vial we're pretty much screwed.

hjalte

05-15-2009, 03:38 AM

I don't think the pridemage is a major problem. I played in a tournament against UGw and UGwb Threshold decks, and only lost a single game. In those matches Stonecloaker, Mangara and Dog tricks won me the games. I know it's not a lot of testing, but i still managed to win against countertop lock and triple goyf, on the back of stonecloaker and mangara.
I was really happy that I played 3 stonecloaker that day, although it sucks to have two in hand with no creature in play, it rarely happens so the fact that they have flash really makes up for it.

LegacyDan

05-20-2009, 10:39 PM

pandaman

05-20-2009, 11:44 PM

I do believe that it is possible to keep one of them out if you have the mana/Vials. Ya gotta mess around with the stack though, but the deck does stuff like that anyway.

I'm not too good with stack manipulation (but getting better by playing more with this deck) - could you tell me how you could get one of them out even though you have no creatures on the board? I'm curious to add more stack tricks to my arsenal...:cool:

loop

05-20-2009, 11:59 PM

You can't- both Stonecloakers will trigger and eventually make you bounce one of your creatures. If cloaker's ability was targeted, you could play/vial one, make it target itself and play/vial the other one, also targetting the first cloaker, so you'd get to keep the last one. But as it is worded, you just can't.

pandaman

05-21-2009, 10:48 PM

Could you do it like this?

Play Stonecloaker 1
Stonecloaker 1 resolves
Stonecloaker 1's return creature to hand ability on the stack targeting Stonecloaker 1
Stonecloaker 1's remove card in graveyard from game ability on stack targeting a card in a graveyard
Put vial activation on the stack
Vial resolves, put Stonecloaker 2 into play
Put Stonecloaker 2's return creature to hand ability on the stack targeting Stonecloaker 1
Put Stonecloaker 2's remove card in graveyard from game ability on stack targeting a card in a graveyard

So the stack looks like this...

Top

Stonecloaker 2's remove card from graveyard ability
Stonecloaker 2's return creature to hand ability
Stonecloaker 1's remove card from graveyard ability
Stonecloaker 1's return creature to hand ability

Bottom

then...

Stonecloaker 2's remove card from graveyard ability resolves, removing a card in a graveyard from the game
Stonecloaker 2's return creature to hand ability resolves, returning Stonecloaker 1 to your hand
Stonecloaker 1's remove card from graveyard ability resolves, removing a card in a graveyard from the game
Stonecloaker 1's return creature to hand ability resolves, which does not have a target anymore so it does not do anything

You are left with Stonecloaker 2 in play.

Is that at all right or at all possible? Or am I breaking a rule somewhere?

Edit: And I've just realised that, as loop said, it's not a targeted ability. It says "return a creature you control to your hand" not "return target creature you control to your hand" So now I understand that you can't do it like this.

pandaman

05-21-2009, 10:50 PM

And I've just realised that, as loop said, it's not a targeted ability. It says "return a creature you control to your hand" not "return target creature you control to your hand"

So what I wrote in the last post won't work at all...

Roman Candle

05-21-2009, 10:54 PM

Could you do it like this?

Play Stonecloaker 1
Stonecloaker 1 resolves
Stonecloaker 1's return creature to hand ability on the stack targeting Stonecloaker 1
Stonecloaker 1's remove card in graveyard from game ability on stack targeting a card in a graveyard
Put vial activation on the stack
Vial resolves, put Stonecloaker 2 into play
Put Stonecloaker 2's return creature to hand ability on the stack targeting Stonecloaker 1
Put Stonecloaker 2's remove card in graveyard from game ability on stack targeting a card in a graveyard

So the stack looks like this...

Top

Stonecloaker 2's remove card from graveyard ability
Stonecloaker 2's return creature to hand ability
Stonecloaker 1's remove card from graveyard ability
Stonecloaker 1's return creature to hand ability

Bottom

then...

Stonecloaker 2's remove card from graveyard ability resolves, removing a card in a graveyard from the game
Stonecloaker 2's return creature to hand ability resolves, returning Stonecloaker 1 to your hand
Stonecloaker 1's remove card from graveyard ability resolves, removing a card in a graveyard from the game
Stonecloaker 1's return creature to hand ability resolves, which does not have a target anymore so it does not do anything

You are left with Stonecloaker 2 in play.

Is that at all right or at all possible? Or am I breaking a rule somewhere?

The problem is, Stonecloaker doesn't target. The ability of the first one resolves as the last trigger on the stack, forcing you to return a creature to your hand.

Finn

05-27-2009, 03:16 PM

The only time Aggro Loam plays more than one spell per turn is when they're in Loaming mode. If they're in Loaming mode, either they've got the Seismic Assault in which case Cannonist isn't even a speed bump, or they've got the Devestating Dreams and he's not even a speedbump. If they have neither of these, all he does is make Crusher and Terravore a little smaller, or at best force them to spend two turns wishing for DD and casting it instead of one.

Like you said, the match really comes down to the amount of removal you draw. And usually you'll draw more than enough removal. I haven't played a single game against Aggro Loam with Cannonist in the main, but I think I'd rather have Burrenton Forge-Tender, the extra Grunt, and/or Tivadar than Cannonist.

How would you board with his list? Cut more Isamaru and Wasteland?

I think I would swap out Isamarus for Forge Tenders. I agree that they are pretty good in that matchup. I don't know about cutting Wasteland though. Aside from not wanting to see any lands cut, I have definitely kept Loam decks from casting Loam for quite a few turns with Wastes and Ports. Once you keep them off green in the main phase, they have to topdeck a green source. While that isn't particularly hard, it can take a few turns. And that's precisely how this deck wins. In that span you may even be able to Grunt or Cloak their lands out of the graveyard making his job even harder.

About the Canonist, I think you are forgetting that they have Mox and Burning Wish in addition to Loam. This deck commonly plays more than one spell per turn when it can. I tell you that Canonist does me good because the opponents have complained about it.

LegacyDan

05-27-2009, 03:21 PM

I do believe that it is possible to keep one of them out if you have the mana/Vials. Ya gotta mess around with the stack though, but the deck does stuff like that anyway.

hmm.... doesn't target, so I guess I was wrong.

my bad, they will bounce each other.

@ Finn: what do ya think about having out two aether vials since the deck doesn't have Cataclysms mainboard anymore? I have found myself in combat situations where a vial @ 1 and a second vial @ 3 helps out greatly, but it is also kinda of an iffy thing to do. Just looking for your thoughts.

Finn

05-29-2009, 01:39 PM

Frankly that is not as easy a question as it used to be. I think it depends on the opponent and not so much the game state. I agree with what you are saying about having one set to 1 and another to 3. I have been there. Thinking about it, I hold on to a vial IFF I think the other one is likely to get hit by a sweeper. So against something Like Faerie Stompy, I am going to commit them both and against Landstill probably not. There is a speed issue to consider here, wanting to be aggro against Landstill for example, but I think that the Vial is just so important that I am willing to slow down a degree to avoid a devastating Deed. Threshold is an interesting quandary. There is a guy near me who plays Engineered Explosives in his Thresh list, and I have to hold my Vials against him. But most players do not play that card, so I would gladly play two against Thresh in the early going in most cases, Pithing Needle or no.

Forbiddian

05-29-2009, 04:09 PM

I'm curious about this deck's Goblins Matchup, having not played this matchup.

It seems like you should roll them with your tons of blockers/removal and Jitte, but I still see Tivadar of Thorn in the sideboard. Is Goblins a tough matchup?

leander?

05-29-2009, 04:15 PM

Well, as far as I know Tivadar is just too insane with Karakas to not use it and makes the (already decent) Goblins matchup almost impossible to lose.

chmoddity

05-30-2009, 01:21 PM

Goblins is one of the better matchups, but they can still lucksack into a victory the way Goblins do. Tivadar pretty well owns the matchup with the things D+T can do to keep him coming into play over and over at instant speed or at EOT, so plenty of players are still using him.

Forbiddian

05-30-2009, 02:13 PM

It seems a little narrow when Burrenton Forge-Tender splashes onto a lot of other MUs. For instance: Housing Devastating Dreams, Pyrokinesis, Burn, Ichorid.

I don't see why it's in there (I saw the synergies). The deck has a strong matchup already against Goblins, and then you devote 3 board cards (BFT is best against Goblins) and then 3 dedicated board cards that will only ever see play against Goblins.

The matchup maxes out at about 80-85%, because you can mana screw and/or Goblins can draw the lackey nuts (which gets in before you can get to three mana to cast Tivadar in the first place). Or like: Double/Triple Vial, Double Ringleader (or Matron+Ringleader), gg.

Even without any sideboard, it'd be like what? 60%. Then you add BFTs and then Tivadar on top of that? I guess if you want to wreck one matchup, you want it to be Goblins (since they're still present a good 10% in any metagame), but it seems like overkill when the deck is pretty desperate for board cards to shore up other matchups.

There are cards like Thorn of Amethyst which would seem to do more (great against Solidarity, Black Tendrils Decks, Enchantress, etc.) that aren't played.

Aven Mindcensor, Aura of Silence, Cataclysm, Geddon, Sword of Fire/Ice....

chmoddity

05-30-2009, 02:26 PM

I agree with you, man. I mean, the matchup isn't THAT good without Tivadar, but the logic is sound. This is actually a hot topic at Salvation atm. I like Mindcensor in that spot, myself.

I don't want to devote too many cards to combo because then you will have all this space for an opponent that is perfectly capable of beating you before you can land any of those spells.

LegacyDan

05-30-2009, 11:12 PM

Mordel

05-31-2009, 01:25 AM

Mindcensor seems like an awesome possible creature to fit into a sideboard. I never thought about running them before, but I am sure they probably make their way into many sideboards. I'd almost try to squeeze them into main if I could because of how savagely they would already very inconvenient antics of D&T. Between the bounce/flicker antics, ports, canonists, wastelands and the whole getting nibbled at by dorks aspect of the deck, I see Mindcensors causing a lot of disconnects and facepalms.

pandaman

05-31-2009, 06:59 AM

It seems a little narrow when Burrenton Forge-Tender splashes onto a lot of other MUs. For instance: Housing Devastating Dreams, Pyrokinesis, Burn, Ichorid.

I agree. Burrenton Forge-Tender is not as good as Tivadar of Thorn in the Goblins matchup, but it's a much better card against all of the matchups and cards you have mentioned. It is great against Burn, Aggro Loam and Ichorid. And honestly I don't think it's all that bad against Goblins because it gives you another first turn answer for Lackey. I used to run 3 in the board, but I've cut them now and 3 Forge-Tenders is all there is for the Goblins match. I have to say I'm converted!

Going back in time a bit, thanks to everyone for suggestions on sideboarding and what to take in and out against certain matches! Heres my sideboard as it is now:

3 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Jotun Grunt
4 Abeyance (Orim's Chant better maybe, but I don't own any and I quite like the cantripping!)
3 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
1 Oblivion Ring
3 Glowrider

I've played against Ichorid successfully lately using the following sideboard strategy:

-3 Mangara, -3 Oblivion Ring, -1 Aether Vial, +1 Jotun Grunt, +3 Samurai of the Pale Curtain, +3 Burrenton Forge-Tender.

Against Burn I do the following:

-3 Mangara, -3 Oblivion Ring, +3 Burrenton Forge-Tender, +1 Jotun Grunt, +2 Glowrider.

But I'm not sure if Glowrider is the right choice. I know I have to take out Oblivion Ring because it's dead and Mangara because it's too slow, but what would be best to put in, Glowrider or Abeyance? Or maybe even Samurai for extra beat speed? It would be a little at odds with Grunt, but he's only in there to use Swords to Plowshares on...

And unforunately I haven't played aggro loam since I got some sideboard advice, so I haven't tested that advice out. Hopefully soon!

Forbiddian

05-31-2009, 09:23 PM

Orim's Chant is much better (than Abeyance), although if you already have Abeyance, you might be better off investing in other cards.

The -1 on the CC is a life saver in the tough matchup. It's quite easy to keep 1 untapped and still put a decent clock on the board, but it's much harder to keep two untapped but still put enough guys on the board to threaten a win.

Storm Combo can still draw into answers, or just cast Chant, Dark Ritual, or Thoughtseize to bait your Chant/Abeyance. You have to act quickly under Chant to either win or beat them down enough.

Against Burn I do the following:

-3 Mangara, -3 Oblivion Ring, +3 Burrenton Forge-Tender, +1 Jotun Grunt, +2 Glowrider.

I disagree with Glowrider here. First, it can get in the way of topdecked Jitte or life-gain off of Swords or whatever. But more importantly, its ability is pretty much useless. Burn will not be limited by land in this matchup. Burn players have will have plenty of time to play out their hand contents before DnT can make the kill (esp. when they can cast Fanatics and Keldon Marauders for true cost).

pandaman

05-31-2009, 10:06 PM

Orim's Chant is better because of the 1cc? It makes sense that you can leave that one mana open on the play to threaten you've got it or to play it. Unforunately I haven't got them yet. I traded to complete my Abeyance playset at regionals a fortnight ago so I'm using them. I'll try to get my hands on Orim's Chant as I go and I'll put them in one by one.

If you disagree with Glowrider what do you recommend putting in? I would probably go Samurai of the Pale Curtain then, because it beats harder. Also, I thought about it and it doesn't really clash with Grunt in this matchup, because Burn doesn't have many permanents being removed from play and consequently the graveyard won't be thinned as much.

So the Burn sideboard would go:

-3 Mangara, -3 Oblivion Ring, +1 Jotun Grunt, +3 Forge Tender, +2 Samurai of the Pale Curtain

CleverPetriDish

05-31-2009, 10:15 PM

I can tell you are talking about this, but you have not played it out actually. It does not work out that way. The Burn player does not usually want to waste a spell zapping him. At the very least it sucks up a burn spell that would have hit me if he does. But Glowrider usually buys a lot of time. Not just one turn. It buys just one turn only if the Burn player realizes how much he needs to kill him. He is down at least one burn spell a turn while Glowrider is in play every turn after that. I had an opponent tell me that it screws up the math of his deck, and I think I know what he means. I am always happy to see Glowrider in my opening 7 in game two or three against Burn.

Glowrider definitely goes in against Burn.

pandaman

05-31-2009, 10:42 PM

Is the Glowrider ability cumulative? If two Glowriders are in play do non creature spells cost 2 more to cast?

hjalte

06-01-2009, 01:22 AM

Is the Glowrider ability cumulative? If two Glowriders are in play do non creature spells cost 2 more to cast?
Yes, it does.

I really like the idea of fitting Aven Mindcensor in the deck, especially if you play both wasteland and ports.
I have been messing around with a rebel version of the deck, inspired by Maëlig. So far it's been working out nicely, although I had to take out canonist and grunt from the main deck, which really weakens my combo matchup.

The decklist I have been testing for the last week or so, is this:

Lands:
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
2 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Karakas
9 Plains

Guys
4 Flickerwisp
3 Stonecloaker
4 Serra Avenger
2 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero
3 Knight of the Holy Nimbus
1 Mirror Entity
1 Whipcorder

Stuff
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 AEther Vial

I haven't done much work with the sideboard, but right now it has cataclysm, grunt, chant and canonists.

With all the mana denial, in wastes and ports, Knight of the Holy Nimbus has really been shining. Oftentimes, your opponent had to pay for the regenerate ability, thus making him unable to do anything else, and I will just be fetching a new one with Lin Sivvi, or saving him with some of our combat tricks.

One of the nice tricks, which has won me many games, is to fetch a couple of guys with Lin and with 2-4 guys on the table, fetch Mirror Entity, and beat for 15. My opponents have never seen that one coming.

I would like to fit in 2 or 3 Aven Mindcensor, to further complement the land denial plan, and as a side effect strengthen the Knights regenerate ability. I will start out with -1 flickerwisp -2 isamaru +3 mindcensor. I am just afraid, that the lack of good onedrops (isamaru) might become a problem.

pandaman

06-01-2009, 07:28 AM

I am just afraid, that the lack of good onedrops (isamaru) might become a problem.

Children of Korlis? or Ramosian Sergeant? Both 1 cost Rebels that might work? Sergeant would fetch Whipcorder and Nimbus but not Entity or Lin Sivvi unforunately...

I think I played against your deck on MWS the other day when I was testing my Suicide Black list. I liked it! Lucky for me you didn't bust out Mirror Entity in time... I must admit I like that card too! He's great with Vial as well, which means in your deck there's 2 ways to get him into play at instant speed!

eq.firemind

06-01-2009, 01:03 PM

Hello, DnT thread! I'm not very experienced with the deck, so I'm open to your advices!
Here is my list:

// Lands
10 Plains
3 Rishadan Port
4 Karakas
4 Wasteland

// Creatures
3 Stonecloaker
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Flickerwisp
4 Serra Avenger
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 Elvish Hexhunter - I'll explain

// Spells
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Jotun Grunt
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Tivadar of Thorn
SB: 3 Aven Mindcensor - I like them in many MU
SB: 3 Children of Korlis- to fight Combo.
SB: 3 Burrenton Forge-Tender
SB: 2 Samurai of the Pail Curtain - mainly for Ichorid, but I'll test theese against Loam too.

The bad feeling about the deck was the lack of good 1-drops. 4 Vial+3 Isamaru are not comfortable for me. I read the thread, find some suggestions and... I don't like them all:

Mother of Runes
Mom can chumpblock, mom can protect from point removal, mom can give evasion but...
I can chumplock with Isamaru+Karakas, I can protect dudes with Stonecloacker/Vial+Flickerwisp, I already have fair number of flyers and hey, I thought I'm very tricky, but still aggro deck. Mom is too defensive IMHO.

Weathered Wayfarer
He can do some nice tricks and additional CA is good for this deck, but...
I found him to be too slow and if I'm on play, he is just 1/1 for the first 2-3 turns.

Figure of Destiny
This one is better 'cause they fear him and he can kick hard, but...
I already have a lot of things to do with my mana and I run 7 colorless lands, so most of the times he is just 2/2 for :w::w:.

Akrasan Squire
One guy in my local shop runs soldier/wenee deck with this Squires and he swears they are good. Squire can kick for 2 early and power out flyers later, so he looks good, but... He just beats...

Elvish Hexhunter
Yeah, my personal choice. He's poor attacker, but I belive he belongs here and fits very well. If you resolve this dude early, many decks of the format need to answer him first. He is great proactive annoyance for opponent: no Counterbalance, no Standstill, no Survival, fuck Enchantress, no early Deed. The guy can damage very high number of good decks across format and, (the main reason), he helps to fight the cards we hate the most.
Please spare your thoughts about my choice! Oh, and more Ichorid hate maindeck can't be bad!

Another question is about the sideboard: I don't own Orim' Chant, they are quite expencive and they don't help me much in Combo MU. I want Children of Korlis in place of Chants for the same reason I like Hexhunter: kids are proactive and I can land them before opponent goes nutz and confuse him alot. IMHO that;s the way of DnT should play: small-medium, but very annoying dudes+some good spells+tricks and skill.

Thank you in advance!

Maëlig

06-01-2009, 05:43 PM

He is down at least one burn spell a turn while Glowrider is in play every turn after that. Glowrider definitely goes in against Burn.
Stop thinking burn needs to play multiple spells after turn 3 or 4 (ie when glowriders comes in). In runs out of steam and is therefore forced into topdeck-mode quite quickly. And except if you have a big pressure of the board, it can really afford to wait and play 1 spell a turn. You need to be aggressive in this MU.

I have been messing around with a rebel version of the deck, inspired by Maëlig. So far it's been working out nicely, although I had to take out canonist and grunt from the main deck, which really weakens my combo matchup.

The decklist I have been testing for the last week or so, is this:

Lands:
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
2 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Karakas
9 Plains

Guys
4 Flickerwisp
3 Stonecloaker
4 Serra Avenger
2 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero
3 Knight of the Holy Nimbus
1 Mirror Entity
1 Whipcorder

Stuff
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 AEther Vial

Yey! Great to see some people converting to the rebel engine. I've done quite alot of testing on this, so here are a few thoughts. First, I'd advise running 4 KotHN. First I was playing 3 and 1 whipcorder like you, then I realized that it's one of those card that really gets better in multiples. Especially late game, it can sometimes be important to have these 4 knights so that 1 or 2 can survive a big sweeper. Or simply in big attack phases when there are a few bigger blockers on the board (who said goyf?). Also, you have to play at least 1 children of Korlis. I like it MD because it can be usefull in quite a few situations, but SB is also fine. It really shines against burn/sligh, ichorid, combo and aggro in general (although you really shouldn't count on it to beat gobs). Don't forget you can make a soft-lock with it by getting it back into play each turn for 4 mana (a bit comparable to the Genesis + spore frog "lock"). That's why imo you don't need more than 1. I'm not sold on mirror entity, I tend to think it's a bit risky since it's only good when you've over-commited (and dangerously exposed yourself to a sweeper), but it does seem quite good in certain MUs. I admit I haven't done any testing here. One last word of warning : don't make the rebel engine the core of the deck. You shouldn't start packing ramosian sergeant and the rest, the deck really can't support more mana commitment and an increased slowness. I'd say it's already borderline on the speed issue.

hjalte

06-02-2009, 03:48 AM

I will try out -1 whipcorder +1 Knight. I admit, that whipcorder hasn't been all that great.
I tried the children of korlis at first, but I didn't really like it. I had to spend to many resources to make it effective, and I would rather just go about winning with Knights and Mirror Entity (ME). Which leads me to talking about that very card, ME. It has really been the reason why I have stuck with the rebel engine. The hardest part is to know when to "overextend." I would never do that against Landstill for example. But against merfolks or threshold, I'm quite sure that would be my plan. You you really only need 3 or 4 guys, including ME. When you pull the trick off, you will most likely have at least 5 lands on the table, which means you are attacking for 15 or 20. And oftentimes I only need to deal 10-15 damage, because of fetches and early beats.
So all in all, I have really been impressed with ME.
Also, it allows you to do some nice tricks against merfolks or slivers, which they didn't count on.

I do, however, think that there are some serious downsides of the rebel engine. It really shines against threshold and other aggro control or countertop decks, but against faster decks, like zoo, goblins or elfs (these are the match-ups I have been playing), it is really too slow, and I believe Canonist and grunts would have made a difference, since they come online ealier than Lin Sivvi. These problems might be sorted out by playing Children of Korlis, so i will try to fit in one of those.

I know about the children of korlis and lin sivvi soft-lock, and it's actually pretty neat, but I didn't play any match-ups where it could be useful, so I removed it from the deck. Then I played a couple of games yesterday, where it would have been awesome, so that is also one of the reasons why I will try one maindeck again.

eq.firemind

06-02-2009, 04:42 AM

davidboan

06-02-2009, 07:20 AM

So the Burn sideboard would go:

-3 Mangara, -3 Oblivion Ring, +1 Jotun Grunt, +3 Forge Tender, +2 Samurai of the Pale Curtain

Knowing Your build Dave and knowing the burn deck You're trying to side against (I can't believe I'm telling You how to do this!) I'd go - 3 Mangara, - 3 Oblivion Ring, - 1 Serra Avenger, + 4 Abeyance, + 3 Burrenton Forge-Tender

Abeyance is a big speed bump if You fire it off at the start of burns upkeep, that way its shuts down the sorcery speed stuff for that turn and the forge-tenders get You around the board sweepers

hjalte

06-02-2009, 08:19 AM

That Rebel thing is cute...
I'm new to the deck, but I figured out Landstill is bad for DnT. How Rebels help you to solve this? Hmm... Zoo/Sligh can be a problem (especially after they side in Pyroclasm). How Rebels help you here (kinda slow, don't you think)? Ichorid/storm combo needs faster answers.
I know, that including the rebel engine weakens the combo matchup a lot, but it strengthens other matchups, as I will point out in a minute

And on general, I can't figure out how Rebels help us with our beatdown plan. We already have slow, but solid lock: Mangara+Karakas. Why do we need more? Also, Rebels have no impact on opponent when you just played them. You need to establish engine to make them sick. No, really: spend 3 mana/Vial activation on Lin, wait, spend even more mana, but again, no huge impact on opponent's gameplan.
This has to be seen in perspective. You can't rely on having the mangara+karakas lock every game, simply because we have no form of card draw. Even if you get mangara and karakas into play, that does not ensure you have won, as it is easily disrupted with instant speed spot removal. That said, if you get mangara lock working, you should win.
The fact is, though, that if you get Lin Sivvi going, which means, you get her into play, and she lives for a turn, then you can overwhelm most decks with creatures. This means that we have 6 creatures, which wins if we get them going (3 mangara + 3 Lin), which is quite possible in almost every game.

Also, say, Mangara has alot of synergys outside Karakas. Hey, even resetting Grunt with Cloaker/Wisp wins games. Rebels have poor synergy with other parts of the deck.
I don't think rebels have poor synergy with the rest of the deck. But I must say, rebels perform best, if you have a heavy emphasis on mana denial, in wasteland and port. If you have that, it will make it hard for your opponent to get rid of Knight of the Holy Nimbus, which is exactly what we want, we just get it, without the need of flickerwisp+vial (again, a 2 card combo which we can't rely on) or stonecloaker. He is a threat and an annoyance of his own.

With my (still little) expirience with the deck I have problems in early game. If I establish some early disruption, don't fall to sweeper (EE mostly), handle uberfast dudes (Goblins, Zoo creatures), somehow kick early CB+Top (Vial, O-ring or my personal trick:Elvish Hexhunter), or just put whenees, then it's my game now. I can trick opponent, I can set Mangara, I can just beat with flyers+jitte. The problem is to survive/disrupt opponent's gameplan in early game, not in mid-late. That's why I don't understand why Rebels are good in DnT. I think they can be good in faster White Whenee as mid-late gameplan, but clearly not in DnT.
Early CB+Top happens VERY rarely, and even more so with our mana denial. It is very uncommon for me to have problems against CB+Top.
I have to admit though, that überfast dudes is a problem, but children of korlis might solve some of that, I don't know!

So, here are my questions to people who are more familiar with Rebel DnT:
1) How rebels solve problematic matchups: Landstill, Rock, Zoo(with Pridemage)?
Landstill: This is a problem, but it gives us the power to get dudes into play, without playing them besides using Vial. As I have already said, we can't count on having vial every starting hand, and we can't count on, that it sticks, so rebels (Lin) gives us a great way to handle that. I haven't been playing this matchup, so this is purely what I can figure from what I have tried in other matches.
Rock: I haven't played this matchup, but i figure this is pretty bad to start with, and I don't think rebels made it worse.
Zoo: This have become more bad, i guess, as we don't have as many relevant 2-drops.

2) Don't you think the deck became to slow? (2-3 Isamaru + 4 Vial = 6-7 turn 1 offensive cards, IMHO not enough for early offence)
The standard list, which performs very well, only have 3 Isamaru + 4 vial, I run only 1 isamaru less, so I don't see how that changes anything. What I am sure changes something is the lack of 2-drops, namely canonist, who slows most decks somewhat.

Still can't test Children of Korlis against combo (I run 4 in SB in place of Orim's Chant). Damn MWS newbies! They play combo so bad that they autoscoop to Canonist or play Tendrils for 20 with Children in play and call me a noob for playing "anticombo" deck afterwards!
But kids saved my ass against couple of Burns (on par with Forge-Tender games 2 and 3 Burn has low to no chances) and once against Intuition/Demigod (Again, F-tender shined here too), so I'm already positive on kids 'cause they can help not only in 1 matchup. Oh, and they kick Ichorid too.
Sure, this is what I figure too, but what haven't been trying is doing that every turn. It ties up 4 mana, but is quite a nice softlock.

I also edited wy decklist above: -1 Port, +1 Plains. I felt low on :w: and wanted even more resillence against nonbasic hate (mostly Moon effects).
Also -4 Chant, -1 Tivadar of Thorn, +3 Children of Korlis, +2 Samurai of the Pail Curtain.
I think you played one land too few to start with. Port is quite mana intensive to use, and you only run 21 lands.
I usually have 5+ lands out, if I haven't boarded cataclysm in, which makes it possible to do a lot of tricks, and that is what wins games.

Maëlig

06-02-2009, 08:30 AM

I do, however, think that there are some serious downsides of the rebel engine. It really shines against threshold and other aggro control or countertop decks, but against faster decks, like zoo, goblins or elfs (these are the match-ups I have been playing), it is really too slow, and I believe Canonist and grunts would have made a difference, since they come online ealier than Lin Sivvi.
You're spot on. The engine is good in that it gives stability and inevitability to the deck, but it is indeed a bit slow. I finished 4th at a tournament yesterday, losing only to goblins (despite playing jitte MD and cataclysm SB). But there's no reason not to play grunt, even if this means cutting stonecloaker or flickerwisp. MD GY-hate (goyf is still very prevalent) is invaluable, and it interacts quite nicely with the rebel engine (as an alternative to paying 3 to activate Lin's 2nd ability). I'll try fitting canonist back in, this might help the speed issue.

That Rebel thing is cute...
I'm new to the deck, but I figured out Landstill is bad for DnT. How Rebels help you to solve this? Hmm... Zoo/Sligh can be a problem (especially after they side in Pyroclasm). How Rebels help you here (kinda slow, don't you think)? Ichorid/storm combo needs faster answers.
It actually improves the Uwgb landstill and Ugb(w) MUs, because multiple KotHN > deed/EE. Sligh (and zoo to a lesser extent) is a very good MU, notably thanks to the CoK soft-lock. Also, multiple KotHN > pyroclasm. I agree that fetching CoK with Lin is too slow to stop ichorid or storm combo on its own, but if you have some additional hate to slow them down it will help you quite a bit (not least because it's unexpected :wink: ).

And on general, I can't figure out how Rebels help us with our beatdown plan. We already have slow, but solid lock: Mangara+Karakas. Why do we need more?
It gives inevitability and provides uncounterable, hard-to-deal-with threats. It performs a very different function to that of Mangara, comparing the 2 doesn't make sense. Also, it provides the card-advantage that the deck desperately needs.

Also, say, Mangara has alot of synergys outside Karakas. Hey, even resetting Grunt with Cloaker/Wisp wins games. Rebels have poor synergy with other parts of the deck.
Karakas protects Lin. Grunt puts the rebels back in your library for free. KotHN benefits from the mana-denial plan.

The problem is to survive/disrupt opponent's gameplan in early game, not in mid-late. That's why I don't understand why Rebels are good in DnT.
That's a very general statement. Especially since quite a few decks have a very good (ie better than D&T) late-game plan. I'd also like to point out that some of the cards you mention here (EE, counter-top) are as much of a problem in mid/late-game as early on.

EDIT : Forgot to mention that the CoK soft-lock saved my ass a couple of times against Progenitus. If you don't play runed halo (most people don't), it's basically the only real answer you have to it (you'll have to sword one of your own creature if you play Lin the turn after Progenitus CIP).

eq.firemind

06-02-2009, 10:17 AM

It actually improves the Uwgb landstill and Ugb(w) MUs, because multiple KotHN > deed/EE. Sligh (and zoo to a lesser extent) is a very good MU, notably thanks to the CoK soft-lock. Also, multiple KotHN > pyroclasm. I agree that fetching CoK with Lin is too slow to stop ichorid or storm combo on its own, but if you have some additional hate to slow them down it will help you quite a bit (not least because it's unexpected :wink:).

Karakas protects Lin. Grunt puts the rebels back in your library for free. KotHN benefits from the mana-denial plan.
Thanks for explaining, that helped alot.

It gives inevitability and provides uncounterable, hard-to-deal-with threats. It performs a very different function to that of Mangara, comparing the 2 doesn't make sense. Also, it provides the card-advantage that the deck desperately needs.
I meant not that they do similar things. They have same weaknesses: 3-cost (already crowded slot), need time to work, don't do a shit the turn they come into play, need more investments to work, die to most popular cheap removal. Wich means they both are good when the game goes normal. And they both are slow when something goes wrong.

Forgot to mention that the CoK soft-lock saved my ass a couple of times against Progenitus. If you don't play runed halo (most people don't), it's basically the only real answer you have to it (you'll have to sword one of your own creature if you play Lin the turn after Progenitus CIP).
That's good point 'cause uberworm sneaks somewhere in my meta!

Well, all in all, it seems like mostly metagame/personal taste choice. I prefer to run more agressive version and I like my Grunts and Canonists.
But I'll try rebels later when I'll became more experienced with the deck. Adding another engine is not a way to learn deck's basics.

I also disappointed no one commented my small tech, Elvish Hexhunter. Is he so bad that it's not worth forum space :tongue:?
My (short) testing says he's not.

chmoddity

06-02-2009, 02:19 PM

Hey, Firemind. The Hexhunter is fine imo. I think Maelig's entire direction is fine as well. Maelig has essentially repositioned the deck into a role with significant control potential. And that has its advantages.

I do think it is a different deck though. The disruption offered by Rebels is not of the same level the rest of the deck is, so you are making a trade off. I don't know if it is worth it or not.

Hexhunter is your tech and that is certainly the way we have all been doing it. The deck is highly customizeable. If there is a need to take down Counterbalance right in the main, it is a fine addition imo. For additional 1-drops, though I like Burrenton Forge Tender.

pandaman

06-02-2009, 09:32 PM

Knowing Your build Dave and knowing the burn deck You're trying to side against (I can't believe I'm telling You how to do this!) I'd go - 3 Mangara, - 3 Oblivion Ring, - 1 Serra Avenger, + 4 Abeyance, + 3 Burrenton Forge-Tender

Abeyance is a big speed bump if You fire it off at the start of burns upkeep, that way its shuts down the sorcery speed stuff for that turn and the forge-tenders get You around the board sweepers

You are certainly one of the most sporting gentlemen I've met - telling me how to board best to beat one of your pet decks! Come to think of it I haven't sat down opposite your burn deck for a while, wanna bring it along this week and we can have a few matches?

davidboan

06-03-2009, 01:53 AM

You are certainly one of the most sporting gentlemen I've met - telling me how to board best to beat one of your pet decks! Come to think of it I haven't sat down opposite your burn deck for a while, wanna bring it along this week and we can have a few matches?

I gotta give You a fair chance Dave. Consider it done.

eq.firemind

06-03-2009, 02:48 AM

If there is a need to take down Counterbalance right in the main, it is a fine addition imo.
He's not only for Counterbalance. Landstill and Survival are more popular in my meta than CB. Oh, and Enchantress hates them.

I really enjoyed playing 10 1-drops and I don't want go back to 7.
The problem is my random metagame - you never know what decks you will fight. Sometimes Hexhunter was great, sometimes he was just 1/1 before I side him out.
Hexhunter is here to complement O-ring 'cause 3 MD art-ench hate is not enough and well-timed Flickerwisp already solves some problems with artifacts (EE, Chalice, Ravager, Chrome Mox, resetting Vial and Smokestack).

The main purpouse for theese 3 1-cc slots is to feel some early-game holes.
I have Isamaru to block Lackey/bite face and Vial to build my game. So I need something to disrupt opponent's game.

Icatian Javeliners pretends that slot 'cause it's no good to spend Swords on Birds/Llanowar/Hierarch and additional help against Bob will be great too. They can also suicide to fuck up Bridges from Below (as I said, you never know what will you meet in my meta) and they have synergy with Cloaker/Flickerwisp.

I dig the thread deeper and found out some earlier lists used Mana Tithe. I'll try theese to, but I'm not very positive on leaving open mana during first turns (if I don't need to play around daze). On the other side, I have mana-denial plan, so Mana Tithe is not useless in midgame...

I finaly found some good Storm players in MWS last night and I'm very pleased with Children. I don't want Chant anymore, the reasons are:
Children can be vialed, Chant can't.
Children do it NOW, Chant needs open mana.
Children are small pressure and can carry Jitte.
Finnaly, Children can't be Duressed.
Children are like Gaddock Teeg against Storm Combo - they shut off combo's win condition buying you 1-2 turns to bring more hate, but they cost :w: and that's totally awesome.

Edit: I totally overlooked how awesome is Knight of the Holy Nimbus + Jitte!

Maëlig

06-03-2009, 05:25 AM

Maelig has essentially repositioned the deck into a role with significant control potential. And that has its advantages.
Apart from the CoK soft-lock (which is only used in particular situations), the rebel engine is really more of a midrange aggro than a control strategy. That being said, it does change the deck quite a bit and makes some MUs better and others a bit worse (goblins for eg). I do think it's worth it overall.

Hexhunter is an interesting option but I tend to be suspicious of cards with a conditional effect in the MD. D&T has evolved in the opposite direction over the past months, notably by removing true believer and SotPC from the main. Also, I'm not sure CB, standstill or survival are the main problems of the deck right now (although it can't hurt to have some additional hate). And it's not an answer to the most annoying enchantments for this deck, namely deed and humility. That being said, I agree with you that the deck is a bit "heavy" atm and it's certainly nice to have another 1-drop. Personally I prefer wayfarer, but I admit he's only been decent and rarely great.

I finaly found some good Storm players in MWS last night and I'm very pleased with Children. I don't want Chant anymore, the reasons are:
Children can be vialed, Chant can't.
Children do it NOW, Chant needs open mana.
Children are small pressure and can carry Jitte.
Finnaly, Children can't be Duressed.
Children are like Gaddock Teeg against Storm Combo - they shut off combo's win condition buying you 1-2 turns to bring more hate, but they cost :w: and that's totally awesome.
CoK is NOT a good replacement for chant. It's just isn't. It might surprise an over-confident storm player with vial @ 1, but once he knows the trick there's little chance it will be of any use again on its own. It's really the same reason why true believer and runed halo are bad against combo : it only stops their win-con, not the engine itself. They can easily find an answer to it before proceeding to kill you. Your comparison with teeg isn't appropriate : the main use of teeg is not to stop tendrils, but AdN and ill-gotten gains (ie their engine). Also, it's good to diversify the hate. If you play CoK and canonist, ANT can just fetch massacre and proceed to win, while if you play canonist and chant he will need to have an answer to each of those.

1maarten1

06-03-2009, 05:50 AM

So whats the general list at the moment? I really liked the list Finn posted a few pages ago with 4 canonists maindeck. But i really like the rebel engine too. My meta consists out of merfolk/zoo/some goblins and elves/few landstill/few combo. If someone gives me a good list that uses the rebel engine, i can compare it with the list Finn posted too see what cards u drop if u go for the rebel engine.

THanks,

Maarten

eq.firemind

06-03-2009, 06:50 AM

I tend to be suspicious of cards with a conditional effect in the MD.
Yeah, agree here. Outside Isamaru, they all more or less conditional...

CoK is NOT a good replacement for chant. It's just isn't. It might surprise an over-confident storm player with vial @ 1, but once he knows the trick there's little chance it will be of any use again on its own. It's really the same reason why true believer and runed halo are bad against combo : it only stops their win-con, not the engine itself. They can easily find an answer to it before proceeding to kill you. Your comparison with teeg isn't appropriate : the main use of teeg is not to stop tendrils, but AdN and ill-gotten gains (ie their engine). Also, it's good to diversify the hate. If you play CoK and canonist, ANT can just fetch massacre and proceed to win, while if you play canonist and chant he will need to have an answer to each of those.
Well, ANT has Duress/Pact of Negation/their Chant to fight our Chant...
True Believer and Halo are crap 'cause they cost :w::w:. Kids do the same against combo but for just :w:. Teeg stops their engine, but unlike Canonist, he can't slow down their attempts to dig/tutor for answer. Kids cost 1 less mana. That's why I put Teeg and Kids on the same level of overall effectivness against combo (Canonist >>> both). Also Kids make sure my games 2 and 3 against Burn are close to 100% win(1-2 Burns every week, and they already hate me :tongue:) and can help against Ichorid if I'll find myself in need to hate Bridges so much.
But I get your advice and will test Chant and Kids more to figure out witch is the best for my deck/metagame.

And I want to see your Rebel DnT list too!
I played with StaX player yesterday, (we played 6 2/3 sb games, Hexhunter was not useless killing his Prisons and Suppression Fields, 3:3 frendship wins :smile:), I asked about rebels and he said he HATES Lin Sivvi :wink:.

hjalte

06-03-2009, 07:04 AM

Lands:
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
2 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Karakas
9 Plains

Guys
4 Flickerwisp
3 Stonecloaker
4 Serra Avenger
2 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero
4 Knight of the Holy Nimbus
1 Mirror Entity

Stuff
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 AEther Vial
Is the list I have been testing recently.
It performs OK, but feels a bit slow. You might want to fit in a single Children of Korlis, as the Soft-Lock is pretty good. Also I think it would be good with some Jötun Grunts, but I haven't had time to test a list with them.

Finns most recent list is at the opening post. It performs very well in a varied meta (I split the finals in a small tournament with about 20 people with that exact list).

What I do recommend, if you see a lot of tribal decks, is to play with cataclysm maindeck. That spell really wrecks them. I haven't tested the elf matchup with canonist, but I believe that it will slow them down enough, so you can handle them, and so you don't need cataclysm.

My best advice would be to play a couple of games to get a grip of the deck. And then try out a list with rebels, and see how that works out. I think it is, mostly, a matter of taste, what you prefer to play with.

About the inclusion of Icatian Javelineers: I really like the idea a lot. Although I think it will be very hard to fit it in a deck with the rebel engine.
I especially like how it handles noble hierarch. I have been playing a lot of countertop decks with him on MWS latelay, and I have oftentimes used a swords on them, to slow them down further.

eq.firemind

06-04-2009, 06:07 AM

One more 1-drop that I'll test: Deftblade Elite.
Reasons:
1) Kills manadudes and Confidant to complement manadenial plan and save Swords for fat targets.
2) Blocks all day long.
3) Bash into lonely big blocker, pay :1::w:, your other dudes connect. Repeat to race.
4) Becomes silly when equipped with charged Jitte.
Too bad the deck can't pump it's guys outside Jitte. Somehow pumped Deftblade seems to be awesome.

I want to try 2-3 Cataclysm instead 2 Tivadar and 1 other card in sideboar (+ 2-3 Flagsones main). I found out Burrentons are already very good against goblins and Cataclysm is usefull here too, but it also wrecks Enchantress and Landstill (if you resolve it, Chant or Wayfarer => Boseiju can be helpfull here)

Pienterekaak

06-04-2009, 07:02 AM

I love deftblade elite, i play 4 of them in my soldier deck, where it performs great (field marshall for first strike and pumping etc) and its creates a blocker for my catapult squad.

but, i do not think it add's anything to D&T. it barely does any damage, it costs 2 mana to prevent damage (not trample). and its provoke ability isnt that special in this deck either. Dont get me wrong, i love him, but i think d&t already has trouble cutting disruptive creatures

eq.firemind

06-04-2009, 07:19 AM

but, i do not think it add's anything to D&T. it barely does any damage, it costs 2 mana to prevent damage (not trample). and its provoke ability isnt that special in this deck either. Dont get me wrong, i love him, but i think d&t already has trouble cutting disruptive creatures
I actually have 3 free slots and I want something that costs 1 (in addition to 4 Vial and 3 Isamaru) 'cause I feel general lists (like the one on page 1) are a little slow for me. Just searching for possibilities...

Pienterekaak

06-04-2009, 08:43 AM

true, the list lacks explosive speed, but i do not think deftblade elite would solve that. And this is not really a aggro deck, it wins on creatures that also play a control/disruptive roll, buying you time.
So what is the list you play with then?

and i do not think hexhunter would be a great choise, i am testing a 4th ring now for extra removal. And hexhunter is not a great card when the opponent does not play any exciting enchantments.
(and btw, the hexhunter does not hurt enchantress that much, i also play enchantress, and that deck can survive multiple deeds)

eq.firemind

06-04-2009, 08:59 AM

// Lands
10 Plains
3 Rishadan Port
4 Karakas
4 Wasteland

// Creatures
3 Stonecloaker
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Flickerwisp
4 Serra Avenger
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 Free slots

// Spells
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Jotun Grunt
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Tivadar of Thorn
SB: 3 Aven Mindcensor - I like them in many MU
SB: 3 Children of Korlis - to fight Combo 'cause I don't own Chant right now.
SB: 3 Burrenton Forge-Tender
SB: 2 Samurai of the Pail Curtain

As you can see, the list is pretty standart 'cause I'm new to the deck and need to learn alot how to play it. I just cut 1 Port, 1 Flickerwisp and 1 Canonist from 1st post' list and changed side to what I own/like.

Pienterekaak

06-04-2009, 10:22 AM

Do not cut the flickerwisp, like finn, im in love with this creature. It does so much, and in the worst possible situation, its a 3/1 flyer that untaps a land.
play 4 of those! (you just have to see it in action to see how good it is)
i play 4 canonist now, couse i want my deck to have a maindeck answer to combo, and its also decent against alot of other decks. And im going to look how good a 4th ring is (since it does remove everything)

hjalte

06-04-2009, 05:12 PM

I have been trying a more standard list with icatian javelineers, and aven mindcensor. I have never been unhappy to see javelineers. He kills bob, elves, hierarch. Very nice. He's also pretty cool with flickerwisp and stonecloaker. And when he has pinget, he can always carry a jitte, if you need to get some initial counters on it, though that's hardly a reason to run him...

Aven mindcensor on the other hand, never really felt good. It always felt to late when it hits the board, to effect fetchlands, which was my main reason to include them, to complement my land destruction/denial plan. I would much rather play the last port, as it actually do something, and then play real threats (aka. Grunt). It was VERY nice against survival though, but that's pretty obvious.

About 3 or 4 flickerwisp. I'm not sure. Right now I'm playing 3, and I'm not missing the fourth. They're best when you have vial, and not quite as awesome when you don't, and as I have said earlier, that's not something we can count on, when we can't search for vial, and don't draw any cards. So I think it's perfectly fine to run only 3 wisps, but i don't think you should ever run less than 3 stonecloaker, as they have flash, and don't need vial to do our awesome battletricks.

EDIT:
eq.firemind, that's almost the list I've been testing with -3 grunt +3 mindcensor, and the 3 free slots is javelineers. I really think it's pretty optimal. Also, I have -1 plains, +1 flagstones of trokair. The flagstones is better than a normal plains in most cases, especially with my cataclysm in the sideboard. And I really think you should consider cataclysm in the side. It's great against tribal and control.

1maarten1

06-06-2009, 09:31 AM

How are the Zoo/merfolk matchups for this deck?? Those are two heavy played decks in my meta and im thinking to build this deck.

thanks

DukeDemonKn1ght

06-07-2009, 09:14 PM

Just wondering, I'm new to this deck, but I had heard some murmurs about trying Death and Taxes with a Green splash...
Have people abandoned this idea?

It seems like if TEPS/ ANT are difficult matches, Gaddock Teeg could help a lot, since it is a must-answer in order for them to be able to win. On top of that, Qasali Pridemage seems like a shoe-in for the sideboard, since people have been debating Elvish Hexhunter and Pridemage is pretty nearly strictly-better.

Also, if you wanted to get really wacky with Karakas (which is secretly the main thing I want to do in playing this deck), you could try stuff like Saffi Eriksdotter or Reki, History of Kamigawa... Probably neither of these are actually optimal, but damn, I really want Reki to be good... The idea of using Karakas + Isamaru as a draw engine is just about the most adorable thing I could think of... Lol.

I understand all the conventional arguments against splashing a color, especially in a deck such as this that tends to run a high number of non-basics (Karakas, Port, Factory, Wasteland, Flagstones)... However, it seems that the meta is getting more friendly to splashing in mono-color decks... For example I've had some success so far testing my Merfolk deck with a White splash.

It seems to me that a Green splash has to be at least as good as a Lin Sivvi list, but as I said I'm new to the deck so I don't want to be too presumptuous just yet in touting my ideas... I'm just interested what people think.

Are there any green cards that would be worthwhile to use in the maindeck? (I'm really hoping the answer isn't "Tarmogoyf"...)

SIDEBAR: Could someone show me what a list that runs Weathered Wayfarer looks like, and maybe give me a rundown on how it affects the deck's match-ups as compared to the standard version? Wayfarer is one of my personal pet-favorite-cards, so I'd be interested in seeing a list.

1maarten1

06-08-2009, 01:45 AM

Just wondering, I'm new to this deck, but I had heard some murmurs about trying Death and Taxes with a Green splash...
Have people abandoned this idea?

It seems like if TEPS/ ANT are difficult matches

The matches are hard, but not un-winable. With canonist main and 4 chants coming from the side its quite do-able :rolleyes: About the green splash: i believe someone tested that before a few pages ago. Check that out :wink:

Maarten

eq.firemind

06-08-2009, 03:07 AM

Just wondering, I'm new to this deck, but I had heard some murmurs about trying Death and Taxes with a Green splash...
Have people abandoned this idea?
Yes. Any splash makes our manabase very fragile to Moon, Wasteland and Price of Progress and we already have all we need in white.

It seems like if TEPS/ ANT are difficult matches, Gaddock Teeg could help a lot, since it is a must-answer in order for them to be able to win. On top of that, Qasali Pridemage seems like a shoe-in for the sideboard, since people have been debating Elvish Hexhunter and Pridemage is pretty nearly strictly-better.
We already have Ethersworn Canonist and sideboard options.
Hexhunter can hit BEFORE Counterbalance, Standstill, Survival even if you're on draw and that's the only reason I run him.
Pridemage is a great card, but not for this deck.

I understand all the conventional arguments against splashing a color, especially in a deck such as this that tends to run a high number of non-basics (Karakas, Port, Factory, Wasteland, Flagstones)... However, it seems that the meta is getting more friendly to splashing in mono-color decks... For example I've had some success so far testing my Merfolk deck with a White splash.
Dunno about your meta, my is full of Wastelands as it always was and some Moons and Back to Basics are here too.

Are there any green cards that would be worthwhile to use in the maindeck? (I'm really hoping the answer isn't "Tarmogoyf"...)
There are good cards in all colors. But DnT has its solutions to almost every problem it faces and still has strong manabase, so it's better to stay monowhite. Many people tried different splashes and all returned to monowhite.

SIDEBAR: Could someone show me what a list that runs Weathered Wayfarer looks like, and maybe give me a rundown on how it affects the deck's match-ups as compared to the standard version? Wayfarer is one of my personal pet-favorite-cards, so I'd be interested in seeing a list.
Here's Urdjur's list with Wayfarer:

LANDS (22)
12 Plains
3 Karakas
1 Dust Bowl
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Maze of Ith
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Mistveil Plains
1 Wasteland

CREATURES (21)
-1cc
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3 Weathered Wayfarer
-2cc
4 Serra Avenger
2 Jötun Grunt
1 Epochrasite
1 Ethersworn Canonist
-3cc
4 Flickerwisp
3 Mangara of Corondor

SPELLS (17)
-1cc
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Enlightened Tutor
-2cc
1 Runed Halo
1 Umezawa's Jitte
-3cc
1 Aura of Silence
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Oblivion Ring

SIDEBOARD (15)
3 Cataclysm
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Abolish
2 Mine Excavation
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Tormods Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon

Wayfarer provides another engine and is Landstill's worst nightmare (after Vial).

On general: I'm new to DnT too and I'm not sure it's good to experement with the deck now 'cause you need a great skill to win with DnT. Each small desicion can cost you game and each mistake is unforgivable. So first you need to learn the deck by playing basic list like the one in 1st post with minor metagame/personal taste tweaks.

DukeDemonKn1ght

06-08-2009, 04:15 AM

This may be a silly question, but has Preacher been considered for this deck? I realize that the three drops are insanely clogged up, but it seems like he might be a decent sideboard option against some strategies. Stealing an opposing Goyf or Dreadnaught would be pretty hot, I would think.

Also, separate question: That list with Wayfarer someone replied to me with on the last page had some decent ideas, but it was sort of all over the place (like, what is Boseiju really supposed to protect in this list? Dustbowl, why? Mistveil Plains, why?)... And it was further complicated for me to sort through because it was very much focused on the Enlightened Tutor aspect of the strategy. I want to play a list with Weathered Wayfarer, but I don't want to devote a whole lot of design space to it, I just want to get decent use out of it because it's my favorite white one-drop.

Can someone recommend a couple of the more effective one-of lands that I could use? Personally, I wouldn't go below 3 Karakas, 4 Wasteland, 3 Port, so I really only would have room for one or two one-of lands in the maindeck, and I want to choose the most bomb ones possible. Basically, I want a list that looks a lot like the one in the OP, but with a few tweaks, and I really want to squeeze in 2-3 Wayfarers.

I might try running Isamaru at two-of (for availability issues, for one thing), and I'm going to test with and without Ethersworn Canonist in the main-deck... I realize without him there, the deck kind of nerfs to ANT et al, but I want to try KotHN as my 2/2 for two mana since he beats and disrupts in more situations than Canonist. Also, I'm really not quite sold on the necessity of Tivadar of Thorn in the sideboard... I'd rather just play a fourth Forge Tender, free up two sideboard slots, and play around with those, unless someone really sells me on Goblins being a terrible matchup for us.

eq.firemind

06-08-2009, 05:34 AM

This may be a silly question, but has Preacher been considered for this deck? I realize that the three drops are insanely clogged up, but it seems like he might be a decent sideboard option against some strategies. Stealing an opposing Goyf or Dreadnaught would be pretty hot, I would think.
IMHO Preacher is unneeded. You can Flickerwisp Dreadnought, shrink Goyf/Terravore with Jotun Grunt+Stonecloacker, RFG 1+ target with Mangara, block some of them forever with Karakas+Isamaru, use Maze of Ith in Wayfarer version.
LOTS of solutions. And don't forget 4 StP and 3-4 O-Ring maindeck.

I'm going to test with and without Ethersworn Canonist in the main-deck... I realize without him there, the deck kind of nerfs to ANT et al, but I want to try KotHN as my 2/2 for two mana since he beats and disrupts in more situations than Canonist.
He attacks, blocks, survives sweepers and is hard to kill. But he doesn't disrupt at all. Without Lin Sivvi Canonist is better option.

Also, I'm really not quite sold on the necessity of Tivadar of Thorn in the sideboard... I'd rather just play a fourth Forge Tender, free up two sideboard slots, and play around with those, unless someone really sells me on Goblins being a terrible matchup for us.
Goblins are even to good preboard and Tivadar makes it 90% win postboard.
But I changed Tivadar to Cataclysm 'cause it is usefull against gobs AND other matchups (other Tribal, Enchantress, Landstill/MUC(if you resolve it), Quinn, Trainwreck).

On general:

Guys, don't remove Grunt from MD!
He somehow hurts so many decks in the format that it's not even funny: Survival, Volrath's Stronghold/Academy Ruins recursion, Crucible/Loam, Ichorid, Everything with Goyf, and finaly, FUCK YOU PAINTER/GRINDSTONE COMBO!
Backed up with Cloaker/Wisp, he is A HOUSE!
As far as my testing goes, Grunt was never useless against competitive decks and 4-th one is the card I side in most frequently.

3 Aven Mindcensors will stay in my SB for their help against: Survival, all tutors (enlightened, mystical, infernal), fetches and Natural Order.

1maarten1

06-08-2009, 12:20 PM

hjalte

06-08-2009, 01:37 PM

Grunt doesn't stop grindstone combo, if your opponent plays smart.
They have to activate grindstone after your grunt trigger resolved, but still in the upkeep, then you still lose...
I'm also pretty sure, that grunt should stay MD. He is that good. In my opinion the only guy we have, that can answer goyf, in an effective way.

Also, you don't need Tivadar he isn't that important when your have Forge-Tender, who is so much better in many other matchups. But, if there's LOTS of goblins in your meta, Tivadar should be your sideboard card of choice.

On one-of lands: It depends VERY much on your meta. Mishra's Factory, Dustbowl, Kor Haven or Maze of Ith would be my suggestions.

EDIT: @1maarten1, which matchups would you like information on? The decks in the DTB section, or more than those?

eq.firemind

06-08-2009, 02:18 PM

Hey, could someone give me a list with the matchups and &'s that is up-to-date :)? I read through the thread but i couldnt find it. Using the normal version instead of the rebelversion.

Read opening post of this thread :smile:. That list is up-to-date and I started my list from Finn's. Here it is:

// Lands
9 Plains
3 Rishadan Port
4 Karakas
4 Wasteland
1 Flagstones of Trokair

// Creatures
3 Stonecloaker
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Flickerwisp
4 Serra Avenger
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 free slots for 1-cost (currently Elvish Hexhunter)

// Spells
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Jotun Grunt
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 3 Aven Mindcensor
SB: 3 Burrenton Forge-Tender
SB: 3 Children of Korlis
SB: 2 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
SB: 2 Cataclysm

The matchups... I didn't read about MU. I tested all by myself to learn how to play the deck. My findings:

Goblins: slightly favorable preboard, favorable postboard.
Keys: Burrenton Forge-Tender, Cataclysm.
Tech: reset their Vial with Flickerwist to prevent them from droping Ringleader/SGang

Ichorid: Unfavorable preboard (like all other decks), even postboard
Keys: Burrenton, Samurai, Children, Grunt.
Notice: they'll bring in Needle, art/ench hate and maybe Chain of Vapor anf Firestorm. Your hate is based on creatures and you have Burrenton for Firestorm, so they can't hate your hate:wink:. But it's combo deck. It can still win on turn 1.

Storm combo: Unfavorable preboard, slightly unfavorable postboard.
Keys: Children/Chant, Canonist, Aven Mindcensor, fast beats.

UWx Landstill: depends on build, but very difficult. Hexhunter > Stanstill and this wins me a descent number of games. Wayfarer is a big help here too.
Tech: Reset EE with Flickerwisp.

UBg Landstill: Landstill is hard and this is Landstill with Deed.

the Rock: They have Deed and tons of other shit. I've won couple of games against Rock, but it's hard as hell and requires all you luck and skill.
Tech: Reset EE with Flickerwisp

Tempo Thresh: Even preboard, favorable postboard
Keys: Grunt, Burrenton, Canonist, disrupt their mana, Stonecloacker.

CB Thresh: Even preboard, slightly favorable postboard. Shakcles/Sower are bitches. But you can play around it (Flickerwisp, Stonecloacker)
Keys: Hexhunter (hello, Counterbalance!), Canonist, Grunt

Aggro Loam: even preboard, favorable postboard
Keys: Burrenton, Grunt, Stonecloacker, Canonist (to slow them down), removal on their big dudes.
Tech: reset Crusher, Chalice and EE with Flickerwisp.

Survival: Hexhunter, Grunt, Mindcensor and manadenial make this match favorable postboard.

Dragon Stompy: not much testing here, but you want to bring Burrenton in play and you can reset Chalice with Flickerwisp or resolve Vial before Chalice to do it.

That's all for now. As you can see, with great skill and some luck you can win almost every game. The worst match for me is the Rock and UBg Landstill, but they are not popular in my meta.

1maarten1

06-08-2009, 04:02 PM

ok thanks :) merfolk and zoo are the most commen played decks in my meta, how about those MU's?

Maarten

DukeDemonKn1ght

06-09-2009, 06:52 AM

Ok, here's a mock-up list I'm suggesting that uses Weathered Wayfarer. I'd really appreciate any suggestions that people have, or analysis on the strengths and weaknesses of using him... Is Wayfarer awesome in any matches besides Landstill? Is he just downright terrible sometimes? (I could envision this against something like Burn potentially...)

I've used Finn's current list in the OP as a starting point, since I'm new to the deck and I don't want to take it upon myself to fix what ain't broken.

Without further ado...

4 Karakas
3 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
11 Plains

3 Weathered Wayfarer
3 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Serra Avenger
4 Flickerwisp
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
2 Stonecloaker

4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Umezawa's Jitte

SIDEBOARD
4 Orim's Chant
3 Burrenton Forge-Tender
3 Glowrider
2 Cataclysm
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Jotun Grunt
1 Ethersworn Canonist

So... I italicized cards that appear in different quantities from the OP list. The only additions are 3 WW in the main and 2 Cataclysm in the SB, and the only card I completely dropped from the list was Tivadar of Thorn. As you can tell from comparing, I stayed really close to Finn's list that's in the OP. I didn't even find room to include any one-of lands to abuse Wayfarer with (mostly because none of the possibilities seem all that spectacular. So I sort of need some advice on one or two more things I could shave down potentially, and what I should add to the list in order to compliment Wayfarer.

One minor question I have is if it would make more sense to use the fourth copy of Wasteland instead of the fourth copy of Karakas? I know Karakas is nutz in this deck, but since it's legendary and Wasteland is as brutal as ever, it seems like the presence of Wayfarer might make it more viable to just play three copies of Karakas?

Anyhow, I have a starting point, but I need some advice. Could I see a list of someone who actually plays DnT using Wayfarer in tournaments? And also, if there's someone with a list, could I get a little more insight on how Wayfarer changes the deck's match-ups, and which matches you would side WW out in during games 2 and 3?

Cheers, and thanks for any help available on this. I realize it's not really a ground-breaking idea, but I'm just trying to come up with a good generalized list for the Wayfarer variation.

eq.firemind

06-09-2009, 07:18 AM

List
2 Flagstones of Trokair are good with 'Clysm in sb. But with WW you can run only 1(cut a Plains for it).

One minor question I have is if it would make more sense to use the fourth copy of Wasteland instead of the fourth copy of Karakas? I know Karakas is nutz in this deck, but since it's legendary and Wasteland is as brutal as ever, it seems like the presence of Wayfarer might make it more viable to just play three copies of Karakas?
IMHO you can run only 3 Karakas with Wayfarer, but Karakas produces :w:. If cutting :w: source is acceptable (test, test, test...), run one of the following: Mishra's Factory, Dust Bowl(nutz with Flagstones), Maze of Ith/Kor Haven(hello, 'Nought), 4th Wasteland, Horizon Canopy(keeps your land counter while drawing you cards), Mistveil Plains(grab this from Flagstones to nullify disadvantage; also pain in ass for PainterStone).
Trick: put your lands back in library with Grunt (or Mistveil).

On general: WW is mana-intensive, so you maybe want to run 22 lands in your build (extra utility land is never useless, just rememper, you need at least 10 basic plains not to suck to Moon and same shit)

Anyhow, I have a starting point, but I need some advice. Could I see a list of someone who actually plays DnT using Wayfarer in tournaments? And also, if there's someone with a list, could I get a little more insight on how Wayfarer changes the deck's match-ups, and which matches you would side WW out in during games 2 and 3?
I know only theory, but in most cases you side out WW for Burrenton against: Burn, Zoo, Tempo Thresh, Aggro Loam, Ichorid, Goblins, Dragon Stompy.
WW is great against: StaX, Anything running Standstill, decks with slow clock. He allows you to build your mid-late game when you're not under pressure. And you will outplay almost everything in mid-late game with awesome setup provided by Wayfarer.

Some thoughts on Merfolk and Zoo MU:

Zoo: quite nervous preboard, slightly favorable postboard.
Keys: Burrenton, Grunt, Canonist, wasting their lands(to shrink Nacatl and Kird Ape),
Fliсkerwisp - he figthts Figure of Destiny and with Vial he can suddenly RFG their land(even basics) and make their cats and monkeys look stupid.
Pridemage is a bitch. My first Swords target.

Merfolks: One of the MU where Grunt is not so devastating (but still descent) I take out Canonists for Samurai for better combat abilities. Serra Avenger is gamewinner.

DukeDemonKn1ght

06-09-2009, 03:54 PM

ok thanks :) merfolk and zoo are the most commen played decks in my meta, how about those MU's?

Maarten

As a Merfolk player, I can address this a bit in theory, although I haven't actually played against DnT all that much.

Basically, here's what you have to break the matchup in your favor:
*A higher density of relevant mana-denial cards (your 4 Wastelands/ 3 Ports vs. their 4 Wastelands, since Stifle doesn't work as mana denial against DnT). I think the smart Merfolk player will save their Wastelands for Karakas nearly every time, whereas you basically nuke their Mutavaults and maybe try to tap down their Islands during their upkeep. Keep in mind that mana denial isn't particularly effective against them, because their curve is even lower than yours is, but if it turns out to be good at the time, you have more ways to do it than they do.
*Combat tricks and creatures that are larger individually than most of theirs (provided they have less than two 'lord' creatures in play). Merfolk doesn't really have too much natural evasion against non-blue decks, and they don't have anything nearly as wacky as Karakas, Cloaker, or Wisp to turn the tide of combat in their favor. Be sure you get good usage out of these cards as much as you can, because they're going to be huge targets. Also, the advantage your creatures have over theirs will diminish once they get a buffing creature or two in play, so don't rely on it to win you the match.
*Flying creatures are also very relevant against Merfolk (most Merf lists have none, some have maybe four or so at the most), so try to stick your Wisps and Avengers.
*Spot removal. This is huge, because they won't have any unless they're splashing a color (something I've been known to do with Merf, but not everyone does)... Very likely, they will try to hold onto their FoW in order to counter your Swords and O-Rings, not to mention Mangara. Don't let them! Put enough pressure on the board that they have to counter a creature (hopefully not the best one in your grip though) if you really need to stick your spot removal.
*Jitte dominates Merfolk. DnT plays their Jitte in the main, whereas Merfolk may have them in the main, the sideboard, or not at all. They have very few resources to keep your Jitte from getting counters on it, other than trying to counter the Jitte or Stifle the equip, because they can't really hope to completely prevent you from getting creatures on the board, since they run 8 counters to your 22 creatures.
*If Cataclysm is in your board, for God's sake, side it in! Cataclysm would dominate Merfolk, because their creatures generally do less on their own than yours do, and they have somewhat of a tendency to overextend. Especially against other decks that use Aether Vial and a ton of creatures, Merfolk is almost forced into trying to maintain board presence.

Having said that, here's what they have against you to break the match in their favor:
*Counterspells. They will pack 3-4 Daze and 4 FoW, automatically. Many times, Daze will come out in game 2 or 3, whichever of these two games they are on the draw rather than the play. Some lists also use Spell Snare, but it's fairly rare to see from them. I don't think I really need to explain why counterspells are a problem. DnT packs a lot of creatures, but they're not all that burly by and large. Although your creatures will be bigger than theirs at first, once the Merfolk player hits a Lord or a Reejerey, or even worse multiple 'lord' creatures, their guys are going to get a LOT bigger than yours pretty quickly.
*Lord creatures. While the creatures that Merfolk assembles on its first two or three turns don't tend to look all that impressive at first, they tend to get really big really quick if the Merfolk player is doing their job well. Reejerey and Lord of Atlantis are your sworn enemy, and you should try to dead them on sight. Otherwise you will no longer have parity in board presence pretty quickly.
*Possibly Dreadnaught. Not a lot of Merfolk players use it, because it tends to be unreliable in the deck, but be aware that it's a possibility.
*Standstill. This is kind of iffy against DnT, but it all depends what the board state looks like. A good Merfolk player knows when to drop a Standstill and when not to. If you find yourself on the wrong end of a Standstill, it's usually best to break it right away, but not necessarily with the best card in your hand. Be aware that they could draw into, or already be holding a counter, so try to bait them a bit before you go dropping something that you really can't afford not to stick into a Standstill. Having said that, I get the impression that Standstill would be relatively hard to set up against DnT, since pretty much any one-drop spell DnT could play highly reduces the effectiveness of an opponent's Standstill. Also, don't forget you can cast your Swords in response to their Standstill, which depending on the situation, might even be enough to turn their card around in your favor. I feel that the smart Merfolk player will take out Standstill in Games Two and Three more often than not against DnT.
*Higher card selection advantage. I think DnT enjoys higher card quality advantage between the two decks, in that its cards work slightly better on their own than Merfolks' do. Both decks use cards that are fairly interdependent in order to work to maximum effect, so the advantage is slight, but it's worth mentioning. On the other hand, Merfolk can see more of its library, between Adept and/or being able to set up Standstill to their advantage.
*Back to Basics out of the sideboard could be a pain in the ass for the DnT player. Honestly, between Wasteland, B2B, and Stifle, I wouldn't expect to have an easy time pulling off too many tricks with Karakas... so make the best of it when you can.
*They're pretty likely to have a Jitte to match your Jitte, and I think sticking one and keeping it around for a couple turns could very easily turn the match in either player's favor.

That's about all I can think of at the moment... Lol, it's a lot to start with at least. I think the match should be about even, and it could very easily depend on who has the better sideboard. Let me know what y'all think, as I said this is mostly theoretical so I might have missed or misinterpreted a couple aspects of the match-up. Hope this helps. :wink:

EDIT: I kind of forgot to talk about Aether Vial, but this is really probably what's at the heart of the match-up. Being able to successfully curve out an Aether Vial over the course of the first three or four turns is pretty dominating, and I think one big factor in the match will be which deck gets more crafty with their Vials. I think it may be correct for some Merfolk decks to side out their Vials in this match-up, depending on what they bring in for them. On the other hand, I don't think DnT should ever side out Vial in this match. Beware of having your Vial either Dazed or Forced though, because besides spot removal and Jitte, I think Vial is the other card that the Merfolk player will usually treat as a must-counter. This isn't because they can really hope to keep DnT from getting creatures, but Vial is a tempo boost that both decks will want to exploit, and they don't want your board to proliferate too quickly.

Finn

06-09-2009, 11:11 PM

D+T beats Merfolk pretty hard. Played the matchup many, many times. I have always felt that this is the better deck.

hjalte

06-10-2009, 02:29 AM

I imagine the new rules change hits D+T pretty hard. Especially the part, where combat damage ceases to use the stack. This removes our ability to gain card advantage from our combat tricks, which is not very good, as this was the whole idea of playing D+T.

It's stated here, scroll down to rules change 5: http://wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/42a

I imagine Flickerwisp and Stonecloaker looses some of it's effect, Stonecloaker the most, and that I will be trying other creatures in their place. I think Mother of Runes might be a good replacement. She fulfills the same purpose, the big problem being, that she doesn't combo with Mangara.

eq.firemind

06-10-2009, 03:21 AM

I just started to foil out my DnT ('cause it became my favorite deck) and read that new "rules"...
Damn, show me people that "don't understand combat rules"!

Pienterekaak

06-10-2009, 03:56 AM

omg :s how can they remove the damage on stack rules.. D&T really likes those (as do some of my other decks), mana burn is no longer a problem.. and "the battlefield" doesnt sound that appealing.. -1 for magic...

ilovejess2

06-10-2009, 05:56 AM

I have recently got into legacy and I have spent ages getting the cards for this deck and it is my only completed legacy deck and I love playing it. Now this? More than a little angry. Will this archetype survive at all?

Pienterekaak

06-10-2009, 06:19 AM

well, it will certainly make D&T weaker, but is it still possible to bounce a creature while the attacking creature stays 'blocked'? and thus prevend its damage?

but D&T relies alot on combat tricks, killing theirs, and keeping your creatures alive.. so this might couse d&t to not become playable at al.. (since it really needs all the advantage it can get)

pandaman

06-10-2009, 06:42 AM

The new rules changes regarding combat damage have certainly wrecked a big strategy of Death & Taxes. No more combat damage tricks - the biggest way that the deck creates a sort of card advantage. :(

I'm disappointed. I don't think they needed to do it. But how do you reckon the deck can bounce back? We've got to think of something!

Mordel

06-10-2009, 04:32 PM

No more astral slide trick with flickerwisp with the end step, if I understand correctly. That's kind of a dick pain. I really liked that one. I'm sure Finn will roll with it and keep playing D&T, but the combat dmg not going on the stack anymore is pretty brutal. I would use it a lot. I wouldn't say rely on it or anything, but it was a clincher in numerous games for me.

Oh well. Enhancement Shamans are good in arena now.

DukeDemonKn1ght

06-10-2009, 09:34 PM

Wow... Just when I thought I'd finally decided on a second Legacy deck to pick up, now this shit happens?? So, basically as I understand it, Isamaru pretty much loses 50% of his effectiveness, right? I second the question about if the creature Isamaru blocks remains blocked when you return him during the declare blockers step? And Stonecloaker becomes much less attractive... I seriously second the question: Can anybody tell if this will remain a viable deck??? I really want to pick DnT up, but it seems like unless the deck also makes some significant gains from M10, it will just sadly fall by the wayside with this unnecessary revision to the combat damage rule. :frown: :frown: :frown:

I'm just a little sad right now, because it seems like when you take away the aspect of tricks and little complications that may arise occasionally from Magic, you eventually turn it into a lesser card game.

Mordel

06-10-2009, 10:40 PM

It's not rocket science. According to your posts and the fact that I am sure that you have at least a few of the posts on this thread, you'll be able to draw your own conclusion on whether the deck will remain viable.

eq.firemind

06-11-2009, 04:22 AM

So they took out a bunch of deck's nice tricks... This makes me think about green splash again. Here's the deck:

4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
2 Karakas -2 maindeck, 1 in Wishboard
3 Plains
2 Forest

4 Aether Vial
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Noble Hierarch - I think everyone who tried :g: splash, overlooked the girl. She's fucking awesome for DnT.

3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Jotun Grunt
2 Qasali Pridemage - 2 is right number for maindeck
3 Living Wish - we play mostly creatures and lands, so it fits perfect.

2 Mangara of Corondor - 2 maindeck, 1 in Wishboard
3 Flickerwisp
2 Stonecloacker - I cut one 'cause they nerfed him.
3 Oblivion Ring

3 Jitte/SoLaS/SoFaI - I need a lot of tests here...

SB:
1 Mangara - for more consistent lock
1 Karakas - for more consistent lock
1 Gaddock Teeg - For Combo and Landstill
1 Harmonic Sliver - For Vial on 3 and Flickerwisp/Cloaker tricks
3 Burrenton Forge-Tender - Wish makes them even better
2 Jotun Grunt - 'cause they are great
3 Children of Korlis - against Burn and Combo ('cause I don't own Chant and run Wish)
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale - against Ichorid and Tribal
1 Kataki, War's Wage - against Affinity, StaX and Faerie Stompy.
1 Aven Mindcensor - Wish for him against Survival, Progenitus.decks, tutors/fetches in general.

I've done very little testing with the list for now, but:

I don't miss Serra Avenger much 'cause Exalted gives me power I need.

Noble Hierarch is the finding. I complained about early-game, but she accelerates me to mid-game state very quickly, fixes shaky manabase, helps to use Port and adds needed power. IMHO she acts like Wayfarer in therms of building your game, but she's faster, less conditional and Exalted rocks.

Living Wish looked a little slow, but Hierarch solved that. Rigth dude in right time wins games. I thought about Eladamri's Call for instant speed, but a):g::w: cost b)I have no space in MD for silver bullets and I already run many hate dudes in SB. You can also just do -3 Wish,-1 Windswept Heath, +2 Serra Avenger, +1 Mangara of Corondor, +1 Karakas

Qasali Pridemage. 2 is correct number. They are still good post-M10 to run them, but the deck just doesn't need more even pre-M10 'cause we already have solutions to some problematic art/ench and :g::w: cost is not good. If you don't feel you need art/ench hate, run -2 Pridemage, -1 Windswept Heath, +2 Serra Avenger, +1 Plains.

Sword of Light and Shadow provides some nice tricks: Lock Graveyard with recurring Grunt, kill lots of art/ench with recurring Qasali, greater use for Wished/sided selfsacrificing dudes, just plain CA.

I will try Deftblade Elite+Exalted(+SoFaI/SoLaS) in Isamaru's slot 'cause he's one of my pet cards.

Finn

06-11-2009, 08:12 AM

Ok, I see now that we need some rumor control.
1. Damage on the stack is gone. Naturally I have played this deck plenty, and I think I have used this particular trick a grand total of 3 times in probably 300 games. It is truly no big deal. Really.

2. Vialing in a Flickerwisp at the beginning of the end of turn step is functionally unchanged. If this hed changed I would have been pissed.

3. Rishadan Port is marginally increased in power. Smart opponents can no longer keep the mana past their draw step when they choose to use the land in response.

4. Combo opponents lost a significant trick of their own with that same new rule.

All in all, I would call it a wash. So Chicken Little can stop with all that talk about the sky.

LegacyDan

06-11-2009, 04:33 PM

Ok, I see now that we need some rumor control.
1. Damage on the stack is gone. Naturally I have played this deck plenty, and I think I have used this particular trick a grand total of 3 times in probably 300 games. It is truly no big deal. Really.

2. Vialing in a Flickerwisp at the beginning of the end of turn step is functionally unchanged. If this hed changed I would have been pissed.

3. Rishadan Port is marginally increased in power. Smart opponents can no longer keep the mana past their draw step when they choose to use the land in response.

4. Combo opponents lost a significant trick of their own with that same new rule.

All in all, I would call it a wash. So Chicken Little can stop with all that talk about the sky.

So Finn, we can still block with Isamaru and return it to prevent the damage?

Mordel

06-11-2009, 04:37 PM

LegacyDan

06-11-2009, 09:23 PM

How you can ask that, yet manage to understand how to do the many tricks that this deck does baffles me.

Yes, you assign Isamaru as a blocker and then bounce once it has been declared as a blocker, before damage goes on the stack. Your puppy will not do damage, but will survive to fight another day.

I didn't realize that the astral slide trick still works with how I read the explanation of the end step on the article. I'll have to read it again maybe.

Ok, since I appear to have been insulted, let me redo that previous post:

If I am to understand these new rules correctly, then if I block with an Isamaru, activate Karakas after blockers are assigned to return Isamaru to my hand, then the blocked creature will still be considered blocked and thus prevent damage from the 'blocked' attacker.

from Cairo

06-11-2009, 09:48 PM

Ok, since I appear to have been insulted, let me redo that previous post:

If I am to understand these new rules correctly, then if I block with an Isamaru, activate Karakas after blockers are assigned to return Isamaru to my hand, then the blocked creature will still be considered blocked and thus prevent damage from the 'blocked' attacker.

Right activate Karakas after declare blockers and before combat damage and it results in you getting to "fog" the attacker.

The only thing the new rule effects in this respect is that the blocker used to be able to put combat damage on the stack then be returned to safety. IE block a 4/4 with 2x 2/2s and then Karakas one of them back to your hand w/ lethal damage on the stack to kill the 4/4. Since combat will no longer use the stack there is no way to accomplish this if you wait for damage than it's too late to save them, and if you Karakas before damage than its not going to be lethal to the 4/4.

Mordel

06-12-2009, 01:45 PM

Now it's only the of other more tricky tricks that this does that will cause arguments and get S:PL messages. Bahaha.

DukeDemonKn1ght

06-18-2009, 03:44 AM

So, my PC is fucked up, and until I get it fixed I've been forced to use my roommate's Mac, and thus unable to test on MWS...

Which leads me to my question: Has anyone tested to see if this deck really does remain viable under the new rules? I know the combat damage no longer using the stack thing is a relatively small loss, but I've been under the impression that DnT needs to have every trick up its sleeve available to win sometimes.

*I just am a little apprehensive to start buying Karakases just yet until someone reassures me that DnT can still win... And also I noticed that this thread needed a bump. :laugh:

@E.Q. Firemind: I'm still lol'ing over the fact that you don't want to drop dollars on Orim's Chant (which is understandable, it's expensive), yet you somehow have access to a Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale for your sideboard... A week hasn't really lessened the "wtf" aspect of this for me. Having said that, how's the Green splash been testing for you?

Maveric78f

06-18-2009, 10:04 AM

Ok, I see now that we need some rumor control.
1. Damage on the stack is gone. Naturally I have played this deck plenty, and I think I have used this particular trick a grand total of 3 times in probably 300 games. It is truly no big deal. Really.
Seriously? Do you count all the times when you are sitting with Isamaru+Karakas in defense and your opponent does not attack because he's expecting the trick? Because you have to take into account, not only the games when you used the trick but also the games when you could have used the trick but also the games where your opponent was forced to take a suboptimal option because the trick was legal.

3. Rishadan Port is marginally increased in power. Smart opponents can no longer keep the mana past their draw step when they choose to use the land in response.
Do you often play smart opponents? In my tourney environment, there are only 3 or 4 people able to play around port.

I've already been bashed several times on these forums because I told that a particular build of mine was good in part because my opponents did not know to play against it. For instance when I used to play cascade/agony combo, my opponents wanted to counterspell the cascade spell or thought that they were safe behind solitary confinement. I think that playing a random deck is profitable because of this: the opponent don't know your card interactions, meaning that if they are borderline in their rules knowledge or if they can't define early your game plan, they will play suboptimally, and you'll have the advantage.

tyleredw

06-18-2009, 10:13 AM

I've already been bashed several times on these forums because I told that a particular build of mine was good in part because my opponents did not know to play against it. For instance when I used to play cascade/agony combo, my opponents wanted to counterspell the cascade spell or thought that they were safe behind solitary confinement. I think that playing a random deck is profitable because of this: the opponent don't know your card interactions, meaning that if they are borderline in their rules knowledge or if they can't define early your game plan, they will play suboptimally, and you'll have the advantage.

Now, I don't mean to bash death and taxes, because I own the deck as well, but that seems like terrible logic. Playing a random deck with mediocre cards may lead to some people playing suboptimally cause they dont know what they can do off the top of their head, but assuming that your opponent is incapable of understanding your deck seems like a strategy destined to fail.

If you're playing suboptimal cards just for the surprise factor to throw people off, you're bound to run into lots of situations where your opponents aren't retarded, and see what you're doing. At that point, all you have left is that you're playing suboptimal cards. Sounds bad.

Maveric78f

06-18-2009, 10:56 AM

I've never said that I would play suboptimal cards. I say that it's sometimes optimal to 'help' the user make mistakes. I also say that DnT is not a deck that is highly expected and that a lot of people don't know a third of the tricks the deck can do, and that's a pro for DnT.

For instance, I've seen a lot of burn player (bad player archetype) lose to landstill just because the burn player did not know how to play around standstill. Expecting that a burn player plays bad is the strategy of a lot of decks.

Finn

06-18-2009, 11:45 AM

Seriously? Do you count all the times when you are sitting with Isamaru+Karakas in defense and your opponent does not attack because he's expecting the trick? Because you have to take into account, not only the games when you used the trick but also the games when you could have used the trick but also the games where your opponent was forced to take a suboptimal option because the trick was legal.Actually, no. I was not including those times. You make a valid point there.

After thinking about it, though. I think that this happens rarely. So much though, that I can't say for certainty that it has ever happened. Oh, it has probably happened a few times. But I don't think it has ever happened when I was aware of it. So it is really no big deal on one hand. And pretty scary on the other. I still think it is not a big deal, but you have to wonder...How often DOES this happen?

eq.firemind

06-18-2009, 12:36 PM

@E.Q. Firemind: I'm still lol'ing over the fact that you don't want to drop dollars on Orim's Chant (which is understandable, it's expensive), yet you somehow have access to a Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale for your sideboard... A week hasn't really lessened the "wtf" aspect of this for me. Having said that, how's the Green splash been testing for you?
Well, I ordered my Chants.
And my friends are nice guys, they gifted me Tabernacle at my last birthday :tongue:

Here's my most rescent list with green:

4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
2 Karakas
4 Plains
2 Forest
3 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath

4 Noble Hierarch - AWESOME!!!
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda - Still the best for this slot. You can start beating 3 damage on 2nd turn (with Hierarch).
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares

3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Jotun Grunt
2 Serra Avenger - Surprisingly I've found Pridemage unneeded here.
3 Living Wish - Another AWESOME!!!
3 Umezawa's Jitte

2 Mangara of Corondor
3 Flickerwisp
2 Stonecloaker
3 Oblivion Ring

Sideboard
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 1 Mangara of Corondor
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist - sided in against combo
SB: 1 Jotun Grunt - sided in against grave-dependant decks (read: 60% format)
SB: 3 Burrenton Forge-Tender - sided in against Burn, Gobbs, Aggro Loam
SB: 1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale - always remains in SB. Wishable bomb against swarms.
SB: 1 Children of Korlis - always remains in SB, I wish them against combo and burn
SB: 1 Harmonic Sliver - Flickerwisp's best friend. Stonecloaker's second (after Mangara) best friend.
SB: 3 Orim's Chant - Best combo-hate available. Proven.
SB: 1 Samurai of the Pale Curtain - always remains in side. I wish her against Dredge, Affinity and Loam.
SB: 1 Epochrasite - Beef slot. This 'thing' is my pet card, Flickerwisp and Vial make it descent. But feel free to try something else.

Unfortunaely I tested this only in MWS (no time :frown:).

Finally I've found Hierarch's place in Legacy (there is also Bant Survival, but I don't play blue). She solves manabase problem, gives you acceleration and small punch for just :g:. I was always happy to see/topdeck her, even in lategame. Oh, and that Rishadan Port is much better with Hierarch.

Living wish. Remember that lack of CA problem? I figured out that we don't need many cards, we need the right card that will wreck exactly our current opponent. Exactly the card I always wanted in DnT.

Mana base. 6 basics is descent amount to negate all that Moons and Wastes. The deck don't need more than 1 green mana to operate, so you can freely fetch Plains 1 turn. And you have Vial and Hierarch. So I'm very happy with my current manabase. I had games where I had no :w:-producers in starting hand and kept that hand 'cause I had 1 of 8 mana-stabilizers. I even fetched for basic Forest on first turn someimes.

Sideboard. I build sidebord to use Wish's awesomness on full power.
Imagine I play against Burn. I'll side in 3 Burrentons, but I still have that Children of Korlis to Wish for.
Imagine I play against Combo. I'll side in 1 Canonist and 3 Chants, but I still have Children of Korlis to Wish for.
And I can always Wish for Karakas or Mangara to establish a lock.

@ Finn
Isamaru+Karakas=1 dead small dude for 2 mana (:w: to cast dog, untapped carakas) pre-M10.
Isamaru+Karakas=1 fogged small dude for 2 mana post-M10.
That is a huge difference. Pre-M10 it was card advantage, now it's tempoloss for you. Aggro decks (mostly Gobbs and Zoo) became a problem for me. As a solution, I included 3 Silver Knight in my mono-:w: list. Here it is:

// Lands
10 Plains
3 Rishadan Port
4 Karakas
4 Wasteland
1 Flagstones of Trokair
15 :w:-producers are needed to cast Knight on 2nd turn and I'm not very happy to see 2-nd port in most cases.

// Creatures
3 Stonecloaker
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
2 Jotun Grunt
3 Flickerwisp
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Mangara of Corondor
2-3 Serra Avenger
3-2 Silver Knight - depends on metagame

// Spells
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Mana Tithe - I failed to find nice 1-drop to speed up the deck, so I decided to slow down opponent instead. This also helps against Landstill and Combo.

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Jotun Grunt
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte - Yep, only 2 in main. I decided to run 22 lands
SB: 3 Burrenton Forge-Tender
SB: 2 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
SB: 4 Orim's Chant
SB: 3 Cataclysm

Sideboard is under work now.

Finn

06-18-2009, 01:35 PM

What creatures in Zoo are small enough to die to Isamaru?

Lavamancer?
Confidant maybe?
Pridemage - that's pretty funny considering the discussion

If these creatures are present on the other side, they aren't attacking.

This is a big reason why it really is not happening much. Nobody wants to trade their utility creatures for Isamaru in combat in the first place. And none of their beaters are as small as ours. It is similar in most cases, but notably not when facing Goblins who would be glad to trade a Ringleader or a Hooligan for a vanilla dog. Of course in this case, they have their own changes to contend with.

This is why I am (aside from the point brought up by Maverick) not really concerned about it.

eq.firemind

06-18-2009, 04:50 PM

What creatures in Zoo are small enough to die to doggy?
Figure of Destiny
Nacatl and Kird Ape 'cause you have Wastelands (and Flickerwisps) to shrink them.
But that was not only about Isamaru.

You know, that stacking combat damage tricks (or even threat of this unfair exchange) forced (aggro) decks to play more defensiely. It is like Canonist against Storm combo (not so great impact on gameplan, but more decks where you'll use it): their deck doesn't operate as it should. As far as I know, that's the heart of Death and Taxes: many small disrupts on their gameplan or key cards. Each different way to land that small blow leads us to better game against some number of decks. One way is a deadend now with new rules, so we have worse chances against some decks and less good plays in diferent situation.
It's not fatal, but still painfull.

Oh, and you have Vial to sudden-block that x/2 and gain card advantage.
Dunno, maybe it's about my meta where I'm the first regular DnT player, but I used stacking combat damage to my advantage in at least 40% matches. I can't say I win a lot of games on the back of stacking combat damage, but again, most of DnT dudes or tricks doesn't win games all by themselves like, say, Dreadnought do.
So I still think theese rules are an impact on DnT and the deck needs (small) rework to stay in shape.

scarlet_moon

06-18-2009, 07:20 PM

@eq.firemind
Funny, Finn had some thoughts about a Gwr-Survival-list in the past (2006). You find the post here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=92262&postcount=4).
Quirion Ranger is the most interesting choice, since it provides a nice trick with Mangara (or Sisay ^^), it can give a creature pseudo-vigilance or protects a Savannah/Taiga against Wasteland (or other landdestruction) because it can even target an untapped creature. Not bad for a cc1-creature ;)
Sisay btw. is very slow, but finds pieces and also fetch Umezawa's Jitte... I test it in my build at the moment.

Other thing: Since m10-rules makes the swarmaggro-mu harder, i think Cataclysm is more attractive again.

eq.firemind

06-19-2009, 12:13 AM

I've tested Survival list and I just think that typical :g::w::b:(:r:) Survival Adantage is just plain beter.

I tried Survival Taxes and I've found that the most of the time I used Survival just to fetch the right creature. That's why I start playing Living Wish: it do what I want it to do, not mana-intensive (I already have Ports), doesn't require much green and doesn't eat up so many slots (the reason I dismissed Eadamri's Call - I don't want singletons in maindeck). Oh, and Wish searches for both Mangara and Karakas too.

Tabernacle is very nice Tribal-hoser and it also wrecks Dredge.

I'll do more testing when I'll have time and if Gobbs will still be a problem, I'll include 1 wishable Tivadar of Thorn. I also think about including 1 Gaddock Teeg to have a wishable dude for Landstill.

LegacyDan

06-19-2009, 01:05 AM

I must say that I am extremely curious to see how the other decks change omce 2010 drops. I do feel, on the other hand, that D+T really doesn't need to change that much (of course, I am still not using Wasteland + Ports together).

The proposed addition of Living Wish seems like it should really be its own deck. Devoting a turn to wish for an answer, Aether Vial aside, seems like a waste to me. Granted it does open up a few choices in splashing another color, but the dual green mana required appears to stress the mana base a little more than the deck should be able to handle safely.

eq.firemind

06-19-2009, 09:23 AM

The proposed addition of Living Wish seems like it should really be its own deck.
Actually, in my list is
-1 Mangara
-1 Grunt
-1 Stonecloacker
-2 Avenger
-2 something (like 4th O-Ring or 4th Canonist)
+4 Hierarch
+3 Living Wish
Changed manabase
The core is almost unchanged, the tricks are the same.
It doesn't feel different from playing mono :w:.

Devoting a turn to wish for an answer, Aether Vial aside, seems like a waste to me.
I said it before and I'll repeat it forever: right dudes in right time win the game. DnT has right dudes for each opponent, but right time (i.e. no search/draw) was always a problem. Now it's not. And with only 2 Karakas and 2 Mangara MD your chances to draw second uneeded legend are very low, but you if you have one part in hand, you have 5 second parts left in your library. Yeah, Wish was a little slow if I had no active Vial. Then I added Noble Hierarch. 4 Vial + 4 Hierarch = consistently good Wish and consistently explosive opening.

Granted it does open up a few choices in splashing another color, but the dual green mana required appears to stress the mana base a little more than the deck should be able to handle safely.
1) Only 1 green creature in my SB (Harmonic Sliver).
2) Aether Vial + Noble Hierarch = 8 :1:-costed mana and color stabilizers
So I never wanted second :g:-producing land and feel pretty safe for my manabase.

Wargoos

06-19-2009, 09:31 AM

Where's the Goyf?

eq.firemind

06-19-2009, 10:09 AM

Where's the Goyf?
In my Zoo deck. :tongue:

I hate playing cards that are good only with my opponents' actions. I can put Instant and Land in grave by myself. I run Stonecloacker and Grunt. So explain please why and in wich slot should I run it and wich games will it improve.

Wargoos

06-19-2009, 10:26 AM

Goyf is good even if you can pump him just to a 3/4 by yourself.
Your opponent exist as well and will play spells which will increase goyfs power definitely.
Goyf is a big wall which can go aggro mode and is so much better midgame then grunt and answers opposing goyfs the same.

And I would guess goyf will increase random aggro mus.

Actually I played DnT myself long looooong time ago and tried splashing green for goyf, which worked quite good with cataclysm.
Even if your take on dnt is different (and im still not very fond of living wish)
i can't believe that goyf is worse then grunt or whatever you would cut for him.
He is the best creature for a reason.
Also:
Moschesch posmatret so russkami kartami dla mina?
V germanije tuta netu takowa, i jap hatel imet russki canadian ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh. :P

ykpon

06-19-2009, 10:46 AM

eq.firemind,
btw, who are you?:smile: i haven't seen D&T in Moscow since december '07

LegacyDan

06-21-2009, 01:28 AM

Actually, in my list is
-1 Mangara
-1 Grunt
-1 Stonecloacker
-2 Avenger
-2 something (like 4th O-Ring or 4th Canonist)
+4 Hierarch
+3 Living Wish
Changed manabase
The core is almost unchanged, the tricks are the same.
It doesn't feel different from playing mono :w:.

I said it before and I'll repeat it forever: right dudes in right time win the game. DnT has right dudes for each opponent, but right time (i.e. no search/draw) was always a problem. Now it's not. And with only 2 Karakas and 2 Mangara MD your chances to draw second uneeded legend are very low, but you if you have one part in hand, you have 5 second parts left in your library. Yeah, Wish was a little slow if I had no active Vial. Then I added Noble Hierarch. 4 Vial + 4 Hierarch = consistently good Wish and consistently explosive opening.

1) Only 1 green creature in my SB (Harmonic Sliver).
2) Aether Vial + Noble Hierarch = 8 :1:-costed mana and color stabilizers
So I never wanted second :g:-producing land and feel pretty safe for my manabase.

If you really want to fix your draw, I would really suggest staying in mono white and going for the Enlightened Tutor build. It helps protect against color hosing, and the artifact/enchantment engines help out against many of the matchups, while keeping the board open for your bad matchups.

Although I wouldn't suggest it if your playfield consists of a lot of aggro based decks.

eq.firemind

06-24-2009, 10:20 AM

I'm lazy to search a huge thread for what I call the core of the deck and we are in M10 reality now, so I'll try to exctract the core from DnT by myself. IMHO it's the best way to find out the weaknesses of the deck and how to solve them and to improve deck's overall competitivness.
I'll be very glad if someone more expirienced with the deck will do that too or correct me if I'm wrong somewhere.

Here it my take on it:

LANDS (22) - We don't want to miss our landdrops, right?
9 Plains - No need to comment
3 Karakas - Post-M10 we really need it only when we can play Mangara, so I feel no need to run 4 now(Karakas+Isamaru is deemed alot). But we don't run any cantrips/seach, so 2 is too low.
4 Wasteland - I think this is a must play in each incarnation of DnT.
3 Utility Land Slots - I prefer Ports here. Some people play Mishra's Factory.
3 Nice Lands Slots - Theese slots are for your personal build/metagame. Say, if you run Cataclysm in SB, put some Flagstones here. Or if you feel enough -producers, you can add 4-th Port or Mishra's Factory. Or just more Plains for stability.

1-COST(10)
4 Aether Vial - Surprised?
4 Swords to Plowshares - No need to comment
2 Isamaru, Hound of Konda - Doggy still eats Lackey, still fogs Goyf (with Karakas/Cloaker/VialWisp), still a nice early beater and still can carry Jitte (for win sometimes). I tried to run without dog and it was a fail.

2-COST(12)
3 Ethersworn Canonist - Some people call her just a filler, but I like her very much 'cause she is a) great against Storm b) descent against tempo-oriented decks
2 Jotun Grunt - He is big. He costs 2 mana. He beats Tarmogoyf and GY-dependent decks. He is still useless sometimes, so 3 is maximum number in MD.
3 Serra Avenger - No need to comment
2 Creature Slots - I reserved theese slots for any combination of 2-costed creatures that fits your metagame best. They can be, say, 3-d Grunt, 4-th Avenger, MD Silver Knight, 4-th Canonist - there are a lot of options, but I'm sure it must be creatures.
2 Umezawa's Jitte - Too good not to run. 2 is bare minimum.

3-COST (11)
3 Mangara of Corondor - The deck's heart.
3 Flickerwisp - one of the best cards in the deck. The longer I play DnT, the more I like it. 3 is minimum.
2 Stonecloaker - M10 nerfed him a little, but we still need Mangara trick, pinpoint removal protection, GY hate and evasive 3/2 for 3 mana is a descent beater.
3 Oblivion Ring - Our all-problems-answer. IMHO less than 3 MD is a crime. Flickewisp trick is a nice bonus.

TOTAL: 55 cards
5 Free Slots - Here's the space for development and improvement.
What do we need from theese slots?
My opinion:
1) The deck is a little slow, so theese slots must be 1- or 2-costed cards.
2) If we add a color, the splash must be very small and we must be able to play without off-color cards.
3) The cards must:
a. Solve problematic cards/matchups (like Deed, Landstil, Storm combo) while being generally usefull against wide arrange of opponents and/or compliment existing strategys of the deck.
or
b. Give a huge boost to our general gameplan so the deck became overall more consistent and competitive.

Now SIDEBOARD:
3 Burrenton Forge-Tender - she was descent berfore M10, and she is even better now.
1 Ethersworn Canonist - you need 4 of theese between your 75 cards to have chances against Combo
3 Orim's Chant - You need more combo-hate.
1 Jotun Grunt - I belive you should have at least 3 of theese between your 75 cards just because he beats Tarmogoyf.

TOTAL: 8 cards
7 Free Slots.
Some pretendents:
Orim's Chant No.4 - If you don't splash, you need 4th one IMHO.
Samurai of the Pale Curtain - great against Ichorid, Affinity, nice against Loam, StaX, every deck that relies heavy on GY recursion.
Cataclysm - good against decks that rely on a single card type, like Enchantress or 43 Lands
Umezawa's Jitte No.3 - if you run 2 main.

All my lists (with or without splashes) are based on this core.
I used, use and will use this approach in all experements with all decks and I recommend it to everyone.

Now an example of how I judged a single card's inclusion:
Noble Hierarch.
Point 1) - check,
Point 2) - check,
Point 3) - explanation: With 8 1-turn accelerators we have consistently fast opening and consistently smooth play (the thing I always wanted), Exalted rocks (was a surprise when manadudes managed to deal 3-5 damage in some games while giving me mana every turn), manabase is more shaky with splash but less shaky with Hierarch, makes our best card (Vial) even better.
Point 3) b. - check.

So I included the card in maindeck and reworked my manabase to fit green.
After that I tested the deck and my new inclusion prooves itself to be worthwhile and I enjoyed (very important part for me) to play this card in this deck.

whitescorpion

06-25-2009, 12:49 AM

Here's the version I have been running down here in Montreal with much success:

Lands (22) :

3 Karakas
1 Eijango Castle
4 Horizon Canopy
3 Flagstones of Trokair
11 Plains

Even without the green splash yet ( i eventually want to fit krosan grip, goyf and pridemage into the deck), the horizon canopies have been great at allowing me to get WW for when i have to cast runed halo or samurais of the pale curtain as well as allowing me to draw later in the game when i tend to run out of fuel.

Creatures (18):

3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3 Stonecloaker
3 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
4 Serra Avenger
2 Jotun Grunt
3 Flickerwisp
3 Mangara of Corondor

The key here is that I always end up siding out about 1 cloaker and 1 mangara vs most decks. Unless they have no direct answer to mangara.

Spells (17)

3 Oblivion Ring
3 Cataclysm
4 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Mask of Memory

Mask of memories does wonders if it sticks, providing card draw to a deck which would otherwise have none. as for the rest , it's self-explanatory. I currently have path over swords since I really really hate it when i am in a race and have to give my opp. life.

.Side (15)

3 Mana Tithe (good vs combo or an early threat , like goyf or a standstill,etc.
3 Ethersworn Canonist (encore vs combo)
1 Jotun Grun (vs. threshold)
3 Kami of the Ancient law (vs. standstill , counterbalance)
3 Runed Halo (vs nimble mongoose or any huge threat)
2 Abolish (vs counterbalance, shackles,etc).

Obviously adding green makes abolish useless, allows me to replace kamis with pridemages and possible 3 smaurais with 3 goys. Overall, in theory the deck woudl become more aggressive and perhaps better.

As it stands, it is quite a decent deck , but i find at times it lacks any kind of power in the late game to stand up to a random goyf + shackles (that usually owns me pretty bad).

Any suggestions for adding in the green splash or improving the current decklist. The main matchup that I lose to is burn as it kills any random dude I can play if need be or just burns me to the face, By the time I can get a jitte online, I am almost always dead.

Ceridan

06-26-2009, 07:15 PM

whitescorpion

06-28-2009, 09:39 AM

I wonder why Abolish is even a candidate since we run so few basic plains. People who play Force of Will says that you need atleast 16 blue cards to support it, and I don´t see DaT running 16 plains anytime soon...

Harder to counter with counter-top if it needs to be hard-cast and the alt cost is pretty doable, since past a certain # of lands in play, drawing more lands becomes redundant and bad (unless you are recovering from cataclysm, whihc should not have hurt as much in the first place).

eq.firemind

06-30-2009, 07:41 AM

@ whitescorpion:
Don't know your meta, but Cataclysm is bad against (most popular archtype -) blue-based (aggro)-control. Well, the card breaks Landstill, but a) they may have Crucible b) it's hard to resolve it against 'Still. 'Clysm was discussed somewhere in the thread, you should read it.

Abolish is great in Weathered Wayfarer build.

Mana Tithe is not enough against Storm. Run Orim's Chant in that slot.

And finaly, I don't like Tarmogoyf here.
Yes, you read correct.

Tarmo is great if you can feel the graveyard by yourself. And Jotun Grunt is a fantastic card 'cause he is not only big and cheap, but he kills Tarmo, Terravore (and Loam decks in general) and hurts so many other decks. For many many decks in format Jotun Grunt is not just a beater, but also a disruption that breaks their gameplan. Last reason is that I don't want my beaters to be off-color. And I don't think we need more beaters between Serra Avenger and Jotun Grunt.

Here's my latest list with green:

LANDS (22)
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
2 Horizon Canopy - Nice card becomes great when used on full power (produces green)!
1 Forest
6 Plains
3 Savannah
2 Karakas

1-DROPS (15)
4 Noble Hierarch - Continues being awesome
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda - I believe we need some early beats. Exalted dog bites hard!

2-DROPS (13)
3 Serra Avenger - After more playtests I returned to Avenger. Exalted and Jitte rocks with evasive creatures!
2 Jotun Grunt
3 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Living Wish - Continues being awesome
2 Utility/Metagame Creature Slots - See below

3-DROPS (10)
3 Flickerwisp
2 Stonecloaker
2 Mangara of Corondor
3 Oblivion Ring

SIDEBOARD
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale - Any kind of swarms
1 Harmonic Sliver - 'Wisp and 'Cloaker's best friend.
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender - descent against red-heavy decks and nice vs Dredge.
1 Children of Korlis - Was third Forge-Tender, but I needed something to stay in wishboard for Combo MU. Also nice against Dredge and Burn.
1 Jotun Grunt
1 Mangara of Corondor
1 Karakas
3 Orim's Chant
1 Gaddock Teeg - 'Still, StaX and Combo
1 Krosan Grip - was Oblivion Ring in mono-:w:, but I mostly sided it in to kill some art/ench, so Grip looks more useful as a SB option.
1 Samurai of the Pale Curtain - not popular Wish target, I think about replacing him with Aven Mindcensor to answer Survival and Natural Order.
1 Beefy Creature Slot - currently Epochrasite, but I'll try Figure of Destiny here 'cause I have more mana (thanks, Hierarch) and I need something Wishable for Vial with 1 counter.

Horizon Canpopy: how did I missed this card?? It's so great, especially for :w::g: build! I started with one and soon replaced 4th Savannah with another. If your meta is low on Burn/Zoo/Sligh, you can try even 3 copies. The
Major change is that I cut Rishadan Ports. logic was the same to some RbGoblin players start cutting ports and adding Bannerets: With Hierarch the deck recieves the significant speed bump, so I don't feel the need to stall the game anymore and I have better things to do with that 3 mana.
Manabase becomes really stabe now and Fetchlands + Canopies provide some food for Grunt making him more consistent beater.

Now the most interesting part: that 2 free slots (were Ethersworn Canonists).
With the addition of green I have 2 more great candidates in this slot: Pridemage and Teeg. Portless manabase can consistently support :g::w: cost.
Teeg: proactive answer for some bad cards, Answers combo. (Bonus: protected with Karakas).
Pridemage: reactive answer for many stuff, Exalted rocks
Pridemage feels like more useful card in general than Teeg, but here comes main dilemma:
With MD Teegs we have slightly better game against Combo, but 2 Teegs and 3 Wishes are still not enough to make game 1 close to 50/50, so we still need to win game 2 and 3.
But if we don't run MD Teeg, we need to many SB space for just 1 MU. So I don't know...

Finn

06-30-2009, 12:02 PM

As far as I am concerned, the number one issue of this deck is not a revamp of what works well. It needs a 1-drop threat so that using Wasteland with a handful of 3-drops isn't so hard a decision.

@Firemind, this deck has a certain modicum of issues regarding consistency. It is not a giant issue (since it is mostly creatures, and they overlap in function a great deal). But it is there. When you start to drop the 3's to 2's and the 4's to 3's, you are diluting that consistency. The deck has no draw or search. I see your Living Wish, but it has no business in a deck that wants to be fast.

You have solved the 1-drop issue but created a host of different ones in the process. In all honesty your input is a bit distracting. I mean this as friendly as it can be. I suggest that what you have is a different deck that is control oriented. You are certainly not the first person to look to green as a second color. But you seem to be putting a lot of work into it. Perhaps you should create a new thread.

Maveric78f

06-30-2009, 12:19 PM

If you really need a 1-drop why don't you play anymore MoR or Weathered Wayfarer? They both look very good.

scarlet_moon

06-30-2009, 12:24 PM

If you really need a 1-drop why don't you play anymore MoR or Weathered Wayfarer? They both look very good.
I think we search for a fat cc1 right? Wayfarer and Mother are not quite big. Against control, i would run Elvish Hexhunter over them. And he is just 1/1 and this is not enough.
The deck needs a Wild Nacatl or Nimble Mongoose in White. 3/3 is just normal for a cc1 now.... Even Dog is weak, compared to other decks.

Maëlig

06-30-2009, 12:32 PM

Against control, i would run Elvish Hexhunter over [wayfarer].

Please proof-read what you wrote, think about it a minute and edit your post.

scarlet_moon

06-30-2009, 12:56 PM

Please proof-read what you wrote, think about it a minute and edit your post.
Wayfarer is just bad in a cataclysm-build. Hexhunter not.

eq.firemind

06-30-2009, 02:22 PM

@Firemind, this deck has a certain modicum of issues regarding consistency. It is not a giant issue (since it is mostly creatures, and they overlap in function a great deal). But it is there. When you start to drop the 3's to 2's and the 4's to 3's, you are diluting that consistency. The deck has no draw or search. I see your Living Wish, but it has no business in a deck that wants to be fast.

You have solved the 1-drop issue but created a host of different ones in the process. In all honesty your input is a bit distracting.
Well, my bad not explaining how I decide to run theese strange cards.

Here it is, all from the beginning:
I started to search for another 1-drop after I realized that the deck is not so good if have no active Vial (as far as I know, you started the search from this point too). I wanted this card to be as useful on turn 4-5 as on turn 1. I wanted this card to be useful in as much games as possible, that's why I dismissed Elvish Hexhunter, Weathered Wayfarer and Mother of Runes and many other nice cards - they are dead too often to be descent. After I failed to find an answer in :w:, I start thinking out possible splashes. When I looked at Goblins and thought:"Hey, why Lackey is so cool? Main thing: he gives early mana to a manahungry deck". But our curve is lower compared to Goblins, I felt the need in just 1 more mana, I felt that I just a little late to win, only one small step...
So I tried Birds of Paradise. They sucked hard as they should 'cause they don't to any damage and can't carry Jitte for win without help.
After Conflux release I noticed that little Exalted BoP and decided to give them one more chance.
Turn 3 Mangara lock or turn 2 Flickerwisp their EE or Chalice was good (as with Birds), but not enough. Suddenly I started noticing a strange 2-4 damage bonus (ie 1 turn faster clock) out of nowhere.
Imagine how shocked was I when I understood Hierarch's true wording: add 1 mana and ping opponent! In fact, Hierarch enabled a possibility of very fast and very agressive play. This sounds very very strange, but I felt like I started playing something very similar to Goblin Lackey. After more testing I found that Hierarch also solves the main problem with splashing a color: more shaky manabase. And she also makes the best card in the deck (Vial) even better and can carry Jitte to win all alone! So 4 maindeck Noble Hierarch was no question for me anymore.

After that I started to experiment with new available nice creatures, made some mistakes (like not running 3 Serra Avenger), fixed them, played more, more, more... And in more and more games I started having a little more mana than I can use at this state of the game(very strange feeling for DnT, right?). First of all I tried some 4-costed dudes (like Loxodon Hierarch) and throw them away. Then I tried more 3-cc dudes, but, as you said, cutting something always was a hard desicion and all attempts didn't led to any noticable improvement.
By that time I realised that the lack of CA was never a big problem for me 'cause I can recieve some real CA with Wisp and Mangara tricks, some virtual CA by making their Tarmo and Vore small or break Dredge plan with Grunt or fast Stonecloacker, sometimes just land (Exalted) wheenees, shoot their dudes with Swords/O-Ring and bash for the win. As I said above, the deck didn't lost speed. According to my feelings, it gained something than it hadn't before: explosiveness.
So straight CA was not the thing I needed the most (don't get me wrong, I don't say CA is bad :tongue:). My problem was, as before, the need of JUST THAT CARD to bring the game in the point of no return, ie Dig/Search Effect. Then I started looking at another very good deck in our format: Threshold and their Brainstorm/Top + Fetches dig/search engine. Hmm... Brainstorm... What is Brainstorm? The card smoothes their starting if casted on 1-st turn. Do I need this? I run more business spells and more lands, so no, with 4 Vial and 4 Hierarch my starting hands are great. But what happens after turn 1-2? They start to search business with cantrip/Top + Shuffle. Just what I need! SO a) I need search b) I don't need it on turn 1, but at the same time it better cost no more than 2 mana 'cause with T1 Hierarch I want to use my Wasteland on turn 2 1 c) It must not be card disadvantage (that's why I dropped E-Tutor). That's how I came to Living Wish. I tested a huge number of sideboards, and figured out the next nice things:
0) It does what I want it to do: now I have a good use for my mana and I can find right card. 5 MD Jotun Grunts, 5 MD Canonists/Teegs, 5 missing pieces for Mangara lock...
1) I can cut 1 Karakas 'cause under M10 it loses some of its power.
2) I had some situations where I didn't had the right creature for Vial (sometimes wrong costs, sometimes it was Pridemage against opposing Tarmo), but Wish solves that.
3) I can just Wish for Karakas and make a critical 3rd landdrop.
4) Some hidden unexpected bombs, like Tabernacle or Harmonic Sliver (yes, he's a bomb with our 'Wisps and 'Cloakers)
That's how I started running Living Wish.

Fuf, I did it :smile:
Sorry for somanyletters and probably bad English, I hope this explaines much.

I suggest that what you have is a different deck that is control oriented. You are certainly not the first person to look to green as a second color. But you seem to be putting a lot of work into it. Perhaps you should create a new thread.
I thought about it, but the deck plays like DnT, uses the same tricks as DnT and have at least 43 (just counted, not including manabase) same cards as DnT, only a maximum of 9 cards with green (4 Hierarch, 3 Wish, and that 2 2-costed dudes) so why is it another deck? I believe people will just point me on DnT thread if I create the new one. And how i suppose to call it? Green and Taxes? DnT Green? Texas Ranger?? Deadly Taxing White Rasta Dude???
No, I belive my deck is still Death and Taxes and, if you don't mind, I'll post my thoughts here.

Patrunkenphat7

07-01-2009, 12:00 AM

Why doesn't anyone play Epochrasite? He seems really solid with Vial and good with Cataclysm. I'm trying to help my friend improve his D&T deck, and I feel as if this dude would work quite awesomely as a 2 or 3-of

Valtrix

07-01-2009, 12:50 AM

Because Epochrasite is just a beater, but he's not really that great of one. Part of DnT's strength is in all the hate/tricks that it lets you do, but all that epochrasite really does is "trick" into play bigger. Since he's pretty situational as well he tries to fill a role that DnT doesn't necessarily need. What would you consider cutting for him?

eq.firemind

07-01-2009, 12:59 AM

I play it as a Wish target now and I played it in Enlightened Tutor build. The problem is that he is not that good without other cards.
If I have Vial online and 2 counters on it, I'm quite happy with Avenger or Grunt.
I can't remember last time Flickerwisp's ability had no usefull target (something like turn 1 land, Hierarch, turn 2 Wasteland, Flickerwisp, untap Wasteland, get a nice tempo boost - why spend a turn to get Epoch online when I can put pressure right now).
Swords to Plowshares will stay forever in Legacy.
But if you have some kind of tutor to find Epochrasite when you can use it on full power (I mean 4/4 NOW, not after they kill it and you wait 3 turns), the card is quite descent.

damionblackgear

07-01-2009, 12:47 PM

Flickerwisp lacks flash. You have to wait for turn 4 to hit an activated wasteland.

Maëlig

07-01-2009, 01:04 PM

Wayfarer is just bad in a cataclysm-build. Hexhunter not.
What a nice, meticulous analysis. Thank you for your insight.
Once you've come up for a reason to justify your claim please share it with us, it will be a pleasure to show its flaws. I can understand people who think wayfarer is not worth it overall, but saying it sucks against control simply makes no sense.
Oh and FYI, most builds don't pack cataclysm MD anymore.

eq.firemind

07-01-2009, 01:09 PM

Flickerwisp lacks flash. You have to wait for turn 4 to hit an activated wasteland.
You misunderstand me. My play is turn 1 Savannah/Canopy, Hierarch, turn 2 Wasteland, tap for mana, play Wisp targeting Wasteland, Wasteland returned in play untapped, tap ir to destroy a land and start attacking with 4/2 (Exalted) flyer on turn 3.
By the way, you'll never hit activated Wasteland with 'Wisp 'cause saccing is a part of cost.

Finn

07-01-2009, 01:32 PM

By the way, you'll never hit activated Wasteland with 'Wisp 'cause saccing is a part of cost.True, but I have saved my permanents from Vindicate, Swords to Plowshares, Oblivion Ring, Pridemage, and Wasteland with Flickerwisp. Flickerwisp off a Vial does everything but cook breakfast.

Has anyone else but me actually tried out Figure of Destiny in a Cataclysm-free build? BTW, I love what Hierarch does, if only it did not require a splash.

eq.firemind

07-01-2009, 02:18 PM

True, but I have saved my permanents from Vindicate, Swords to Plowshares, Oblivion Ring, Pridemage, and Wasteland with Flickerwisp. Flickerwisp off a Vial does everything but cooks breakfast.
From my today online experience:
He: Nomads en-Kor on Cephalid Illusionist, library => grave, huge hasted Sutured Ghoul.
Me: Vial => Flickerwisp :smile: :smile: :smile:

Has anyone else but me actually tried out Figure of Destiny in a Cataclysm-free build?
I tested it in Isamaru's place and Isamaru is still in the deck.
Now I'm testing Figure in Beef slot in Wishboard. That's not the thing you're interested in, but I must say it is at least not bad. You know, it puts opponent on nerves and has a BIG target on its yet small chest - and IMHO that is one of the things that marks the card's usefuleness.

BTW, I love what Hierarch does, if only it did not require a splash.
What's wrong with splash??? No offence, but I start thinking it's some kind of religion that prevents some people from splash...

scarlet_moon

07-01-2009, 02:45 PM

What's wrong with splash??? No offence, but I start thinking it's some kind of religion that prevents some people from splash...
The splash makes it harder to hardcast Mangara, Avenger and all other wwx-cards. Actually most people run 17-18 white sources. With a splash (and Noble Hierarch), there must be at least 14-15 White sources to be consistent. And this with so many basics as possible to be resilient against B2B, Stifle, Wastelandlock or Bloodmoon.
Yes, i think mono-w is a bit overrated here (most d2b are not mono-x, so this can't be the holy secret), mostly because with the old manabase of 11 Plains, 4 Ports, 4 Karakas, 3 Flagstones - the opponents Wasteland was so or so never dead.

eq.firemind

07-01-2009, 06:45 PM

The splash makes it harder to hardcast Mangara, Avenger and all other wwx-cards. Actually most people run 17-18 white sources. With a splash (and Noble Hierarch), there must be at least 14-15 White sources to be consistent. And this with so many basics as possible to be resilient against B2B, Stifle, Wastelandlock or Bloodmoon.
Well, I have 16 :w:-producing lands (3 Savannah, 2 Karakas, 2 Canopy, 4 Windswept Heath, 5 Plains), 6 Basics (5 Plains and 1 Forest) and 4 fetches to search that basic if I fear Wasteland. By the way, I also happen to have 4 Hierarchs and 4 Vials in my deck, so :w::w: or :w::g: was never a problem for me.

Now about that so-freaking-scary Wasteland:
I think you people forget that your opponent MISSES HIS LANDDROP TOO. Now remember how scary is their Wasteland if you have Vial online?
I only laughed at Wastelands in that situations.
But hey, Firemind, wtf, that's just 4 of 60 cards! How about that!?
It WAS 4 of 60, but now there are 8 GODDAMIT FREAKING FAST ACCELERATORS (yes, just like 4 Lackey + 4 Vial in Gobbos) in your deck!
8 of 60, not 4! That's pretty consistent number.

General idea:
The deck is Aggro-Control.
All more or less good 1-drops like Mother of Runes, Weathered Wayfarer and many many other cards do business to Control part, but they do almost nothing to Aggro part. But our Control part is already pretty nice, the problem is lack of speed/tempo/explosiveness, i.e Aggro part. That's why they all often felt out of place/win more in the deck. And that's why I like Hierarch so much. By the way, that's also the reason why I keep Isamaru in the deck.

Second general idea (wow, 2 ideas in row, lucky day :smile:):
Ports are bad here.
It took a long time for me to understand this, but I finaly did it.
Using 2 mana to stop them from using 1 mana is simply bad without some special conditions (like Vial or Lackey online). And they can just Brainstorm/spin Top in responce.
When I added Hierarch, Ports start looking better, but I soon realised that turn 2 O-Ring/Flickerwisp/Mangara (with turn 3 lock)/2-drop with mana open for swords/ 2-drop + wasteland/countless other plays are just better that spending that mana on Port activation. Why wait when I can be one step ahead NOW? So I cut Ports and my manabase became very stable and splash-friendly in a moment.

One little question to people who work on black splash (if any):
How about Chains of Mephistopheles in sideboard?
I belive Thresh, Merfoks, Landstill and Enchantress will look pathetic without their draw/cantrips. Oh, and some Storm decks run a full 8 cantrips too!

damionblackgear

07-02-2009, 04:18 PM

By the way, you'll never hit activated Wasteland with 'Wisp 'cause saccing is a part of cost.

You are Correct there. I didn't even bother to check wasteland before I commented. It just seems that there are so many other things that can be done with three mana, instead of wasting someone's land with 'Wisp.

eq.firemind

07-02-2009, 04:57 PM

You are Correct there. I didn't even bother to check wasteland before I commented. It just seems that there are so many other things that can be done with three mana, instead of wasting someone's land with 'Wisp.
Depends on situation. But in that case Flickerwisp is 3/1 Flying creature for just 2 mana. That alone is very great. But there's Hierarch on the table, so 'Wisp will be 4/2 evasive attacker on just 3rd turn (Most of the time 4 is midgame Goyf's power. But 4/5 on turn 3 is not often and he can't fly.)! Ofcourse, Flickerwisp is easy to deal with, but you just wasted his first(if you're on play) or second (if you're on draw) land, possibly cut a color AND dropped a huge beatstick, so his ass is on fire.
IMHO it's nutz tempo play.
The possibility of such unusual for DnT explosiveness (this is just one example of nutz play), such early must-answer threats makes the deck much better and as I said so many times before that's why I love Hierarch.

DukeDemonKn1ght

07-03-2009, 04:18 AM

One little question to people who work on black splash (if any):
How about Chains of Mephistopheles in sideboard?
I belive Thresh, Merfoks, Landstill and Enchantress will look pathetic without their draw/cantrips. Oh, and some Storm decks run a full 8 cantrips too!

Speaking as a Merfolk player, I can tell you confidently that we don't really run cantrips, besides Silvergill Adept. Standstill is an issue, but DnT is already really well-prepared to deal with Standstill, since it plays cheap creatures and Aether Vial also.

This is not to pick on you by any means. I think Hierarch looks like a decent incentive to try the green splash, not to mention Gaddock Teeg and Pridemage. But I can tell you that not only will Merfolk basically laugh off Chains of Mephistopheles, but most Merfolk players are going to be pretty puzzled by that part of your statement.

Michael Keller

07-03-2009, 04:24 AM

Speaking as a Merfolk player, I can tell you confidently that we don't really run cantrips, besides Silvergill Adept. Standstill is an issue, but DnT is already really well-prepared to deal with Standstill, since it plays cheap creatures and Aether Vial also.

This is not to pick on you by any means. I think Hierarch looks like a decent incentive to try the green splash, not to mention Gaddock Teeg and Pridemage. But I can tell you that not only will Merfolk basically laugh off Chains of Mephistopheles, but most Merfolk players are going to be pretty puzzled by that part of your statement.

I don't think he fully understands that Chains is essentially ineffective against Merfolk, by no fault of his own.

Then again, I can't think of a single scenario in a competitive Legacy match where Chains is good anyways. It's just not necessary.

EDIT: Oh wait, nope...never mind. Couldn't come up with anymore bullshit.

_erbs_

07-03-2009, 06:20 AM

Noble Hierarch is really good is speeding up things and boosting your creatures early on.

For me making DnT faster via noble hierarch is not that good. I'd rather give it a crusade like enchancement. The deck has already 8 colorless mana and on the draw a turn one 1 pithing needle by your opponent naming aether vial will give DnT a very hard time.

The speed and mana that noble provides is really sweet but i think that could also be achieved via chrome mox maybe.... though it really hurts bec you throw away your resources. atleast youll still be running on mono and an early wasteland by your opponents with no noble isn't that painful.

The exalted ability is just a bonus but DnT seldom attacks with singleton creatures so the exalted ability will just be effective early on.

Now that m10 rules is almost on the horizon i feel that stone cloaker's effectiveness has some what decreased and other combat tricks aswell.

I think Honor the Pure (m10 card) just maybe could find a place in DnT to somewhat help the lost stack damage which was brought by m10 rulings.

1 Honor the Pure on board will boost DnT's aggro power by alot, most DnT creatures has evasion which can quickly benefit from the +1 damage. But im not sure what to cut....

Maybe DnT could reduce its tricks for raw aggro power via less mangara tricks to give it a more faster aggro clock ....

Pienterekaak

07-03-2009, 09:24 AM

Without tricks (like the managra) its called white weenie and not D&T ;)

sorrel

07-05-2009, 01:10 AM

The exalted ability is just a bonus but DnT seldom attacks with singleton creatures so the exalted ability will just be effective early on.

Now that m10 rules is almost on the horizon i feel that stone cloaker's effectiveness has some what decreased and other combat tricks aswell.

Exalted is not good in this deck. The only time I attack with one creature is when I have one creature. I do recognize that you wouldn't be attacking with Hierarch anyway, but I think having relevant threats and answers is more important than having the accel and maybe 2-3 damage over the course of a game.

I played in a 5 round tournament yesterday. Played against a lot of decks with creatures. The number of times when which rules we were playing with was relevant: None. This deck looks like it loses a lot, but it really doesn't. Stonecloaker was amazing all night, saving other creatures and shrinking goyfs like there was no tomorrow. I would not take him out.

Funniest play of the night: Playing against a version of the rock playing like 20 creatures, he plays a turn three Doran. I play a Karakas and bounce it. It stays in his hand the rest of the game.

scarlet_moon

07-06-2009, 10:22 AM

LegacyDan

07-06-2009, 06:06 PM

I have a little new list ^^

11 Plains
4 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
3 Flagstones of Trokair

3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
4 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Jotun Grunt
4 Flickerwisp
3 Mangara of Corondor

4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Cataclysm

I lowered the curve by cutting Stonecloaker. To compensate the missing graveyard hate, i included the faster and less boarddependend Samurai. At the same time i cut Avenger, because he is to slow and Samurai is 3/3 also. So this deck has a lot more speed and more disruption. The dissynergy of Grunt and Samurai never hurt me, against decks without recursion or gy-combos, its good possible to play around complications. Flickerwisp helps as everytime and all in all, i dont miss Avenger against Aggro (just because in this MU he was to slow...).

this hurts my eyes.

I am REALLY interested in seeing your tourney report. After playing several different combonations of creatures for this deck, I must say the exclusion of Stonecloaker/Avenger is really dangerous. A third turn vialed Avenger is usually a must answer threat, made even better with the inclusion of the Jitte.

On the Samurai Vs. Cloaker front, the main problem I have seen with her is that she usually hits after the graveyard threats are already active while the Cloaker lets you pick and choose what gets 'exiled' (damn you M2010).

If you could please include some form of decktesting/tourney report that would be awesome.

eq.firemind

07-07-2009, 01:49 AM

I lowered the curve by cutting Stonecloaker. To compensate the missing graveyard hate, i included the faster and less boarddependend Samurai. At the same time i cut Avenger, because he is to slow and Samurai is 3/3 also. So this deck has a lot more speed and more disruption. The dissynergy of Grunt and Samurai never hurt me, against decks without recursion or gy-combos, its good possible to play around complications. Flickerwisp helps as everytime and all in all, i dont miss Avenger against Aggro (just because in this MU he was to slow...).
Samurai is 2/2 'cause he deals only 2 damage to opponent.

I run 2 Stonecloaker main now, but I never wanted less.
It is:
1) GY-hate,
2) Evasive beater (Jitte carrier),
3) "Counter target point creature removal"
4) "Fog one attacker"
5) One more Mangara activation.
So much functions in one card for rational :2::w: cost and ability to cheat it with Vial.

IMHO the deck needs a minimum of 8 evasive creatures (3 'Wisps, 3 Avengers, 2 'Cloakers). I tried without Avengers in mono-:w: and my :g::w: lists and it was epic fail.
You may say that she's just a beater and DnT don't need just beaters, but Avenger has her specific part in deck's ability to break gameplans: she stops whenees. You should read Vigilance like "Destroy attacking creature with power 2 or less and toughness 3 or less", wich often leads to "smaller creatures can't attack". Add random Jitte awesomeness and you'll see why she's good in DnT.
[EDIT] Oh, and extended art Serra Avenger is pimp goddess of cards:cool:

Mordel

07-07-2009, 04:03 AM

I read back where things left off at the large one drop debate and it really doesn't look like anyone has supplied good reasoning with an adequate explanation as to why they aren't good. From the time that I have played D&T(which is a decent amount now), I have found a surplus of mana to fuel a Figure of Destiny quite frequently.

Between vial and holding onto many creatures for choice situations and such, figure seems like it would be awesome. I don't buy people just leaving it at: "I tested them and didn't like them" and leaving it at that. Such a reply seems like bullshit from someone that is disguising conjecture as practical experience.

FoD seems to have a lot going for it as far as utility for a vanilla creature goes in that it stops 'geese and goyfs(I have found that goyfs are typically 3/4s against my build), is a first turn 2/2 and has the potential to be a game-swinging evasive beater in the late game. The ability to crank a 4/4 or bigger depending on state of the game following the third standstill of the game after a deed or something seems like a tremendous maneuver to be able to have at one's disposal.

The main disadvatages that I see with it are that it can't fog stuff like a puppy and creates a new opportunity for an error to be made, should they be run in a deck with ports. When one considers that hexhunters and wayfarers are often essentially 1/1s for the first few turns of the game should predictable scenarios not present themselves, FoD offers a nice alternative.

From a purely pros and cons standpoint from someone who has played wayfarers and/or puppies alot now, I will venture to say that FoD would be worth some serious consideration and testing, rather than being dismissed based on flimsy anecdotal claims and/or conjecture made by a few.

That's what I think about the one drop debate anyway.

_erbs_

07-09-2009, 04:52 AM

Hello guys,
What do you think about this build...

Tools:
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Aether Vial
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Path to Exile
3 oblivion ring
4 honor the pure (m10 card)
18

Critters:
4 mother of runes
3 aethersworn canonist
3 Serra Avenger
4 Flickerwisp
4 aven mindsensor
2 Stonecloaker
2 mangara of corondor
22

Land:
1 flagstones of trokair
3 wasteland
3 karakas
13 Plains
20

Thanks

chmoddity

07-11-2009, 08:20 PM

LegacyDan

07-14-2009, 12:08 AM

Mordel: are you suggesting then that we try FoD over Isamaru then?

CleverPetriDish

07-14-2009, 10:54 AM

As far as I am concerned, the number one issue of this deck is not a revamp of what works well. It needs a 1-drop threat so that using Wasteland with a handful of 3-drops isn't so hard a decision.

I think the Figures of Destiny are in addition to the dogs. I have done some jostling of cards to decide what to cut. This is what I have to take to Trader J's coming up.

4 Karakas
3 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
10 Plains

3 Figure of Destiny
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda

3 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Serra Avenger
3 Jotun Grunt

4 Flickerwisp
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 Stonecloaker

4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Oblivion Ring

board
4 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Ethersowrn Canonist
1 Jotun Grunt
4 Orim's Chant
3 Tivadar of Thorn

Also, I think I like Rishadan Port over Wasteland for exactly the reason that it does not keep you off mana. We still have a lof of 3-drops.

Mordel

07-15-2009, 01:40 AM

Yeah, I think FoD is worth trying for sure.

DukeDemonKn1ght

07-19-2009, 06:23 PM

So, is anyone still playing this, or did they just nerf too many of our cards with the combat damage rule, without providing anything playable in M10? :confused: :frown: :cry:

bowvamp

07-20-2009, 01:11 AM

Basically D&T got megakill'd. It doesn't have insane karakas tricks, which was basically all that D&T could use to be competitive.

Xtreme

07-20-2009, 06:53 AM

Still playing the deck. Though the changes in rulings affected it to some extent, it's not that dramatic anyway. A couple of lost isamarus is the difference in general.

Still trying to make up my mind on the green splash/ mono-w topic

CleverPetriDish

07-20-2009, 11:56 AM

Basically D&T got megakill'd. It doesn't have insane karakas tricks, which was basically all that D&T could use to be competitive.Sure it did.

I think Figure of Destiny is likely to be the real deal. If you just swap them for Stonecloakers or Flickerwisps, you should be fine.

Ceridan

07-20-2009, 01:32 PM

Seems like most people that don´t know or play the deck says it got totally nerfed. Sure it´s bad to loose the Isamaru trick, besides that nothing really happened.

beastman

07-20-2009, 01:40 PM

Wasn't the decks only real defense against zoo decks, and stuff like that to jump in and out of combat while stacking damage to pick off creatures?

Ceridan

07-20-2009, 02:51 PM

Wasn't the decks only real defense against zoo decks, and stuff like that to jump in and out of combat while stacking damage to pick off creatures?

Isamaru deals 2 damage and that´s not enough to kill a Kird Ape, Wild Nactl or a goyf... you can still use the block-trick with karakas.

beastman

07-20-2009, 03:09 PM

But without the ability to deal lethal with say, stonecloaker, then bounce him with flickerwisp after damage is stacked, doesnt it become a lot harder to deal with aggro? I mean I've played against the deck before, and the best thing going for it was random tricks and shit like that.

CleverPetriDish

07-20-2009, 03:22 PM

ilovejess2

07-24-2009, 06:23 PM

Anyone else had a look at this list?

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=28092

What an interesting build. Thousand Year Elixir? I had to hover over that to read its rule text. Instant Mangara tricks sounds sexy to me, but it still doesn't look right. Too situational perhaps? The possibility of two Mangara activations in a turn is tempting. I don't like the fact that the deck has only one basic or the lack of love for Flickerwisp. I like the True Believer in the board and this is something I have kept in my "traditional" mono white despite it being unfashionable. The Canonist as a singleton in the board is also interesting.

pandaman

07-25-2009, 08:17 PM

Beastman, those sorts of tricks are important in that particular matchup, yes. But there are other resources such as mana denial, Jitte, Mangara, etc. It used to be a pretty good matchup. But I have not tried it out since Zoo got all the fancy good new critters to play with.

I played Zoo twice in the past week with a stock standard list with no Cataclysm mainboard or sideboard. I got stomped 0-2 both games. I was never really in with a chance to win, I was always just holding on, holding on, waiting for something to save me off the top, but nothing decisive every came. I boarded in 4 Burrenton Forge-Tender 1 Oblivion Ring and 1 Jotun Grunt but it didn't help me stem the tide.

I don't think that the deck really has anything decisive to draw that will turn the tables against Zoo if you're behind. If damage still stacked I could have traded my Serra Avenger's for Wild Nacatl and Kird Ape because they were what killed me - I kept Tarmogoyf off with Mangara of Corondor. That rule change really hurts in that matchup, because you lose the ability to generate that important card advantage.

I think with the new rules changes Cataclysm may be necessary back in the deck to help the Zoo and other aggro match ups.

scarlet_moon

07-26-2009, 10:38 AM

I think with the new rules changes Cataclysm may be necessary back in the deck to help the Zoo and other aggro match up.

I gave Stonecloaker the boat, because it sucks with Canonist and it sucks even more with m10. The lost gy-hate should be a smaller problem with 3-4 Goyfeating Grunts. Also, it hate drawing into Cloaker with an empty board... Here is my actual list:

land
11 Plains
4 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
3 Flagstones of Trokair

creature
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Serra Avenger
4 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Jotun Grunt
4 Flickerwisp
3 Mangara of Corondor

artifact
4 Aether Vial
3 Umezawa’s Jitte

instant
4 Swords to Plowhshares

enchantment
3 Oblivion Ring

sorcery
3 Cataclysm

More love for Flickerwisp and more love for Canonist <3

eq.firemind

07-27-2009, 03:24 AM

Yeah, Stonecloacker starts being not good enough with new rules... Here's my new :w::wg: list (I have Wish for GY-hate):

LANDS (21)
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
4 Savannah
2 Karakas
1 Forest
6 Plains
The deck becomes a litte less manaintensive without 'Cloackers, so i'm testing 21 lands now

1-DROPS (15)
4 Aether Vial
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Swords to Plowshares

2-DROPS (15)
3 Living Wish
3 Serra Avenger
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Jotun Grunt
2 Gaddock Teeg - Newcomer. I hate combo, I hate Landstill's 4-drops and I like random disconnects like Fireblast, Force of Will, EE, Chalice and Natural Order.
3 Umezawa's Jitte

3-DROPS (9)
2 Mangara of Corondor
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Flickerwisp - now full 4 'cause he's got more friends in Wishboard.

SIDEBOARD
1 Karakas
1 Mangara of Corondor
3 Orim's Chant
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Tivadar of Thorn - Great vs Goblins, not bad against :r:-heavy decks, 'Wisp's good friend.
1 Harmonic Sliver - 'Wisp's good friend.
2 Krosan Grip - I hate Pernicious Deed, Humility, Shackeles,...
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender - Great vs Burn, good vs Dredge and :r: sweepers
1 Kitchen Finks - Test dude vs Zoo 'cause he gives life and kills everything except 'Goyf. Also 'Wisp's good friend.
1 Jotun Grunt
1 Loaming Shaman - Test GY hate dude, 'Wisp's good friend.
1 Free Slot - Currently Figure of Destiny for some more beats, just don't know what to put here. Maybe Aven Mindcensor for Survival/NO decks (at least 1 each week in my local store)

Now, has anyone tried Kitchen Finks as anti-aggro creature in Stonecloscker's place (I mean traditional mono-:w: builds)? The guy looks really promissing...

tomjulioo

07-27-2009, 04:54 PM

...
2 Krosan Grip - I hate Pernicious Deed,
...

krosan sucks against deed because a good player will sack it at sorcery speed not giving you priority...

a friend of mine won a 27 player (5 rounds + top8) tournament with my D&T list yesterday:

3 isamaru
3 mangara
3 stonecloaker
4 Flickerwisp
4 Serra Avenger
4 Ethersworn Canonist

4 swords to plowshares
4 aether vial
3 umezawa's jitte
3 cataclysm
3 oblivion ring

10 Plains
4 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
3 Flagstones of Trokair
1 eiganjo castle

side:
3 disenchant
4 orim chant
3 silver knight
3 relic of progenitus
2 ???can't remember!!!

he didn't lost a single round only giving a draw during the rounds after being 4-0
he beat me with ichorid 2-0 and won the finals against 43 lands 2-1

Patrunkenphat7

07-27-2009, 06:29 PM

krosan sucks against deed because a good player will sack it at sorcery speed not giving you priority...

a friend of mine won a 27 player (5 rounds + top8) tournament with my D&T list yesterday:

3 isamaru
3 mangara
3 stonecloaker
4 Flickerwisp
4 Serra Avenger
4 Ethersworn Canonist

4 swords to plowshares
4 aether vial
3 umezawa's jitte
3 cataclysm
3 oblivion ring

10 Plains
4 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
3 Flagstones of Trokair
1 eiganjo castle

side:
3 disenchant
4 orim chant
3 silver knight
3 relic of progenitus
2 ???can't remember!!!

he didn't lost a single round only giving a draw during the rounds after being 4-0
he beat me with ichorid 2-0 and won the finals against 43 lands 2-1

Is the Eiganjo Castle ever good? I feel like it would just get hated by nonbasic hate more than it would be good, but I would be interested in hearing if it were ever beneficial.

eq.firemind

07-28-2009, 01:56 AM

krosan sucks against deed because a good player will sack it at sorcery speed not giving you priority...
Yeah, but in that case he'll need a hell lot of mana to wipe the board and my version is a little faster than mono-:w:, so it works fine...

Is the Eiganjo Castle ever good? I feel like it would just get hated by nonbasic hate more than it would be good, but I would be interested in hearing if it were ever beneficial.
He run 10 basic Plains. That's quite descent number to not to fear Waste/Moon/Price much. And if they waste Castle, well, -1 Wasteland for Karakas.

tomjulioo

07-29-2009, 08:15 AM

He run 10 basic Plains. That's quite descent number to not to fear Waste/Moon/Price much. And if they waste Castle, well, -1 Wasteland for Karakas.

true! that's the reason...
i've never had problems with wastelands...

LegacyDan

08-02-2009, 01:51 AM

Yeah, Stonecloacker starts being not good enough with new rules... Here's my new :w::wg: list (I have Wish for GY-hate):

LANDS (21)
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
4 Savannah
2 Karakas
1 Forest
6 Plains
The deck becomes a litte less manaintensive without 'Cloackers, so i'm testing 21 lands now

1-DROPS (15)
4 Aether Vial
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Swords to Plowshares

2-DROPS (15)
3 Living Wish
3 Serra Avenger
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Jotun Grunt
2 Gaddock Teeg - Newcomer. I hate combo, I hate Landstill's 4-drops and I like random disconnects like Fireblast, Force of Will, EE, Chalice and Natural Order.
3 Umezawa's Jitte

3-DROPS (9)
2 Mangara of Corondor
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Flickerwisp - now full 4 'cause he's got more friends in Wishboard.

SIDEBOARD
1 Karakas
1 Mangara of Corondor
3 Orim's Chant
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Tivadar of Thorn - Great vs Goblins, not bad against red-heavy decks, 'Wisp's good friend.
1 Harmonic Sliver - 'Wisp's good friend.
2 Krosan Grip - I hate Pernicious Deed, Humility, Shackeles,...
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender - Great vs Burn, good vs Dredge and red sweepers
1 Kitchen Finks - Test dude vs Zoo 'cause he gives life and kills everything except 'Goyf. Also 'Wisp's good friend.
1 Jotun Grunt
1 Loaming Shaman - Test GY hate dude, 'Wisp's good friend.
1 Free Slot - Currently Figure of Destiny for some more beats, just don't know what to put here. Maybe Aven Mindcensor for Survival/NO decks (at least 1 each week in my local store)

So follow my thinking here for a second: in an effort to make the deck less mana intensive you removed the card that costs :2: :w:, which wasn't to much of an issue with vial usually sitting @ 3, for ADDING a second color (thus automatically making it more mana intensive by its very meaning and succeptable to the non-basic land screw that lots decks love using) and cards that cost :w::g:, :1::g:, and :1::w::g:?

I am VERY interested in your findings on this variation from your local tourney scene. I myself have found it to be, multicolored D+T decks that is, to be powerful but just not worth their cards slots when compared to the mono white classic. Your inclusion of Living Wish/Wishboard does catch my curiousity though.

eq.firemind

08-03-2009, 01:46 AM

So follow my thinking here for a second: in an effort to make the deck less mana intensive you removed the card that costs :2: :w:, which wasn't to much of an issue with vial usually sitting @ 3, for ADDING a second color (thus automatically making it more mana intensive by its very meaning and succeptable to the non-basic land screw that lots decks love using) and cards that cost :w::g:, :1::g:, and :1::w::g:?
2 words: Noble Hierarch. That's the main reason to splash green. There are many many words some pages ago where I describe all my logic about how I built this deck.

I am VERY interested in your findings on this variation from your local tourney scene.
Hopefully my worktime will be less than 11 hours per day in September and I'll be able to play some tournaments.

whitescorpion

08-05-2009, 11:25 AM

Modified my list a bit. Will play a few tourneys, probably one at Gencon, if there is one. And I will give you guys a few reports + the list .

Xtreme

08-06-2009, 12:54 PM

My list:

4 [LG] Karakas
3 [MM] Rishadan Port
2 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
9 [DDC] Plains (1)
4 [REW] Wasteland
2 [PLC] Stonecloaker
3 [TSP] Mangara of Corondor
3 [EVE] Flickerwisp
3 [CHK] Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 [TSP] Serra Avenger
2 [CS] Jotun Grunt
3 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
2 [EVE] Figure of Destiny
3 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
2 [EX] Cataclysm
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
1 [CS] Jotun Grunt
1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
1 [EX] Cataclysm
2 [CHK] Samurai of the Pale Curtain
2 [NE] Seal of Cleansing
3 [LE] Glowrider
4 [LRW] Burrenton Forge-Tender

I've found figure of destiny to be great. Especially with vial out the 4/4 pump can easily be done.
Still not sure about the mana base. I might switch to 4 port / 3 waste. Sometimes it's not worth it to use waste because you need the mana yourself.
Main feels quite solid, but I'm not sure about the SB. Neither am I sure if I should move cataclysm entirely to SB, I guess thats a metagame question.
Any thoughts?

Finn

08-06-2009, 01:41 PM

I have also liked Figure of Destiny. The deck needs some help versus Zoo, and this is just the sort of fellow to do it. I think you should up the count.

eq.firemind

08-13-2009, 02:43 AM

One funny idea: Ring of Brightheart. It works with so many cards in the deck, so I decided to try it. Here's what I have now:

LANDS (21):
4 Karakas
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland
2 Plateau
7 Plains
Red splash wtf:tongue:
Wastes and fetches work with Ring.

1-DROPS (13)
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda - Obv
4 Aether Vial - works with Ring :tongue:
4 Swords to Plowshares - Obv
2 Enlightened Tutor - 'cause I like tollbox and >1 Ring is too much

2-DROPS (12)
3 Serra Avenger - Obv
2 Jotun Grunt - Obv
3 Ethersworn Canonist - Obv, tutorable
2 Umezawa's Jitte - Obv, tutorable, works with Ring
2 Lightning Helix - I found this card to be subpar in pure aggro 'cause 3 life are irrevelant there, but in slower decks like this... It kills almost any creature in Zoo and Tribal and lifegain really gives a space to breath vs :r:-based aggro.

3-DROPS (11)
4 Flickerwisp - Obv
3 Mangara of Corondor - Obv, works like hell with Ring
2 Kitchen Finks - Test creature, kinda hot with Flickerwisp, fits the antiaggro role, great with Jitte.
1 Ring of Brightheart - I like unusual cards and I like to find home for them. Howewer, this one does nothing without other cards, so only tutorbox singleton...
1 Oblivion Ring - Extreme situation insurance.

4-DROPS (3)
3 Ajani Vengeant - Hell Yeah! Planeswalkers are the best cards to abuse Ring of Brightheart.

SIDEBOARD
4 Orim's Chant - Obv
1 Ethersworn Canonist - Obv
1 Absolute Law - Obv
1 Tormod's Crypt - Obv
1 Relic of Progenitus - Obv, works with Ring
1 Sacred Ground - Wastelock/Geddon/... insurance
1 Seal of Cleansing - Art/ench hate, works with Ring
1 Aura of Silence - Special art/ench hate, works with Ring
1 Jotun Grunt - Very underplayed card, you need 3rd against a descent number of tier decks.
3 Free Slots

The basis is the old MD Cataclysm list. The first change is boot to Stonecloaker to add Finks. The second is E-Tutor to fit in Ring. And the third is Planeswalker instead of Cataclysm to abuse Ring. I choose Ajani Vengeant 'cause I wanted :r: to work for DnT and I like Helixes very much in this deck, but Elspeth is as broken with Ring as AV.

Have anyone tried to use Planeswalkers instead of Cataclysm (if anyone still try to play Cataclysm here)

Xtreme

08-13-2009, 03:03 AM

Firemind:
I'm running cataclysm, and for a monowhite build elspeth could be something to test out instead of cataclysm. I'm not sure how well it fits the gameplan though.
Finks seems to be descent, but I'm not sure I'd like another 3-drop(maybe instead of cloaker in that case).
What about the manabase? In mono-w I'm not sure about wasteland because the deck is mana intensive, but with a splash, doesnt the situation get worse?

Any results you have hade with the green and red splash versions would be nice to know of.

eq.firemind

08-13-2009, 03:39 AM

I'm running cataclysm, and for a monowhite build elspeth could be something to test out instead of cataclysm. I'm not sure how well it fits the gameplan though.
Pump flyers for win I think.:smile:.

Finks seems to be descent, but I'm not sure I'd like another 3-drop(maybe instead of cloaker in that case).
Yeah, that's right the thing I've done.

What about the manabase? In mono-w I'm not sure about wasteland because the deck is mana intensive, but with a splash, doesnt the situation get worse?
In :g: spalsh, there's fucking Noble Hierarch and no problems at all (even beter than mono-:w:).
<EDIT>: No, wait, this is how it must look like:
FUCKING NOBLE HIERARCH
</EDIT>

:r: variant is just an idea for now, the key change is to improve aggro MU with Helix and Ajani and do some broken things with Ring of Brightheart (like double-Helix from Ajani V. or +8/+8 from only 2 Jitte counters or double Wasteland/fetch...), but mana can be an issue. Weathered Wayfarer maybe(also usable with Ring), but the space is already very tight...

Any results you have hade with the green and red splash versions would be nice to know of.
Unfortunately, no. 11-hours workday all summer :cry:. Maybe in september...
But I done some tests and for me :g: splash is superior to mono-:w: 'cause Noble Hierarch is a powerhouse.
Living Wish was bad only very very few times and was almost always good to awesome, so I'll keep it. Most wishable cards: Karakas, Mangara, Jotun Grunt, Gaddock Teeg. Just keep in mind that if you don't need something special, just wish to sculpt your hand/find creature with right CMC for Vial(i.e. use it like Thresh uses Brainstorm). Don't wait for the situation, play YOUR game - and you'll perform fine.
Most sideble card: obv 2 Krosan Grip. Split Second Disenchant is aldo great addition :g: provides to the deck and, combined with acceleration provided by Hierarch this increased game against our bad opponent: Landstill. Something about 45/55 pre- and 55/45 postboard vs Landstill(depends on particular builds of 'Still, UWx without Deed is easier 'cause of 2 Gaddock Teeg MD).

Xtreme

08-27-2009, 03:59 AM

Changes:
-3 cataclysm -> sb
-1 Wasteland

+2 Elspeth
+1 Figure of Destiny
+1 Plains

I wanted to have less 4 drops, so after first adding 3 elspeth I cut one.
ANT seems to be gaining polularity so I really would like to fit 4 chants in sb, not sure what to cut though.

The deck runs very smoothly atm with very little mulliganing. Ofcourse Elspeth and cataclysm dont mix so if cataclysm is sided in, Elspeth goes out. I'm quite happy with the main so I guess it's time to go to test a tournament with it

EDIT:
I need help against counterbalance. Any suggestions?

Finn

08-28-2009, 09:33 AM

If the opppnent gets counterbalance working you could be in trouble. The best defense you have is aether vial. But if you are encountering a lot of cb, I might try pithing needle set to divining top. I play wasteland and port, so I commonly have my threats in place before thresh can make cb pay off. But not always. When that happens I find myself baiting him so I can land an O. Ring.

OuterCrow

09-06-2009, 10:05 AM

Hey guys - long time lurker, been playing and loving D & T for a while now...!

Just a random idea, since we're considering Figure of Destiny (I have a few copies on order to test out), what about a copy or 2 of Gargoyle Castle? It almost seems like FoD in land form, giving that late game knockout blow. Vulnerable to Wasteland of course, but I can't see it being a giant target...and if they nuke it, great - one less Wasteland to get at Karakas. Of course tapping for colourless isn't amazing, but with the current land mix I never feel stuck for white mana...

Probably a ridiculous idea, but seems like it could be a semi-fun/effective addition :laugh:

Xtreme

09-06-2009, 10:30 AM

I almost never have 6 lands, so I would go with Mishra's factory before castle

OuterCrow

09-06-2009, 11:03 AM

I almost never have 6 lands, so I would go with Mishra's factory before castle

True, but I don't mind forking out a few extra mana for the fact that this + Stonecloaker would make it the closest thing to a Gargoyle tribal deck in existence! +10 Style points... :laugh:

Thoughtseizer

09-06-2009, 01:58 PM

I went 5-0 in the swiss round robin last week and then lost to this piece of jank in the first round of the top 8. Unreal! I cannot believe how tech mana tithe can be if you aren't expecting it! I thought it was a terrible and unplayable card that does not belong in this deck or any other for that matter. I am still probably right because I see most players here are not using it. However, the element of surprise on a pivotal game breaking play can sometimes mean all the difference.

Minty

09-16-2009, 07:48 AM

1w Enchantment Common
When Journey to Nowhere enters the battlefield, exile target creature.
When Journey to Nowhere leaves the battlefield, return the exiled creature to the battlefield under its owner's control.

Discuss!

Finn

09-16-2009, 11:08 AM

Minty, I think most players are looking for a replacement for Oblivion Ring. D+T has plenty of really good ways to handle opponent creatures. Oblivion Ring is good because of the array of targets it can nix. It is bad, not because it is too slow, but because it is an enchantment. This card seems to have all of the important weaknesses of Oblivion Ring with none of its important advantages.

Thumbs down for me.

Xtreme

09-16-2009, 03:47 PM

If I wanted more creature removal than 4 swords I would add path to exile.
Sidenotes:
-I tried out honor the pure, and it's horrible.
-Elspeth is superb

morgan_coke

09-21-2009, 02:34 PM

Saw this on the MTGS spoiler, immediately thought of Death and Taxes.

Kor Skyfisher 1W
Flying
When ~this~ enters the battlefield, return target permanent you control to owners' hand.
2/3

Thoughts?

Xtreme

09-22-2009, 04:38 PM

That could be nice with vial in play, but without vial it's really not that good. Although 1 mana cheaper, I would run Stonecloaker instead of that any time, as it operates without vial.
In comparison that guy could randomly save a Jitte or o. ring or "reset" a vial, but that's again with vial on board,. Too situational imho

Finn

09-23-2009, 12:33 PM

Skyfisher misses the mark just a bit imo. At two mana, he is too cheap to reliably get in from a vial that is stationed at 3 as soon as it can be. That means that you will be hardcasting it most of the time. And then his ability does next to nothing.

Minty

09-24-2009, 01:53 AM

Is this worth testing?

Kor Duelist w
Creature - Kor Soldier Uncommon
As long as Kor Duelist is equipped, it has double strike.
1/1

humppa

09-24-2009, 03:16 AM

Is this worth testing?

Kor Duelist w
Creature - Kor Soldier Uncommon
As long as Kor Duelist is equipped, it has double strike.
1/1

How many equips do you have in your build? 2 jittes?

Minty

09-24-2009, 04:09 AM

3 thats enough to test 2-3 of them.
He is a perfect 1cc drop threat combined with Jitte.
I really think its worth some testing!

Xtreme

09-24-2009, 03:30 PM

Lately I have struggled with the manabase. I'm thinking about adding a few utilitylands, probably mishra's factory, and maybe cut the elspeths to get the curve lower. Any ideas? Would fetchlands be that bad?

colo

11-26-2009, 09:22 AM

/me casts Reanimate on the thread…

I don't think fetchlands are a good idea in a mono-W build. Losing life and having your lands go to the bin as a useless victim of Stifle et al. isn't worth the "Library-thinning" effects imho.

Any new developments on D&T, anyone? :)

hjalte

11-27-2009, 06:06 AM

I haven't had time to test much lately, but I'll be taking D&T to the next monthly local event. We will be around 15 players (so that's not much). Last time there were lots of Zoo, so I'm planning on going with the standard list, but with -1 plains -3 Figure of Destiny +1 wasteland +3 Kitchen Finks.

I would rather play 8 disruptive lands than 7, they really own shaky manabases, such as domain zoo and to some extent landstill.

I don't own any Figures, so I opt to play Finks. I know they make the deck somewhat slower, but I believe the added lifegain and persist from Finks makes them worthwile. Some time ago, I tried playing with Icatian Javelineers, with a pretty standard list. They seem alright, but I'm not sure they're good enough. Also, that was when I was playing 3 stonecloakers, which makes them reusable. They hit Grim Lavamancer and most importantly Dark Confidant. I also used them to great effect against elves, but there haven't been any elves in my metagame, so I don't think they're good enough.

I have been thinking about doing -1 canonist +1 Stonecloaker, but I'm leaning towards not. Stonecloaker saves my guys from removal, but he slows the deck further down, which I'm not interested in.

About the sideboard, I'm not sure I'll include any combohate, unless I see someone with combo. So I think the 7 slots can be used better, but I'm not sure what I want to have yet, possibly more Dredge hate, as we see a lot of that.

hjalte

12-07-2009, 04:53 AM

We were 33 at the tournament, which was really overwhelming. Anyway, I top8'ed but got knocked out by dredge, which sucked, because I thought noone played it, when I spied before the actual tournament.
Here's my list, and a small report:

4 Karakas
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
10 Plains

4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Serra Avenger
4 Flickerwisp
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3 Kitchen Finks

4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Umezawa's Jitte

board
3 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Jotun Grunt
3 Glowrider
4 Orim's Chant
3 Cataclysm

Which is just the standard list, with Finks instead of Figures, and an extra wasteland instead of a plains.

Round 1 against one-land belcher 0-2
Match 1: I don't know what he's playing, but I keep a hand with vial, plains, swords, isamaru, karakas and something else irrelevant. I lead with plains, vial, go. He plays Taiga, go. I put a counter on vial, play karakas and go. He combos on his turn 2, with a belcher for 40 or something.
I board chants, an O.Ring, and glowriders, for 4 swords, 1 port, 1 finks, 1 wisp, 1 jitte
Match 2: I mull because I have no hate. I keep a hand with canonist. Put a land into play and pass the turn. He combos on his turn 1 with a tendrils for 20. Sucks.

Anyway. On to round 2. I face a Reanimator deck, and win 2-0.
Match 1: I play vial. Disrupt his mana, while canonist and angel do the job. I was a fairly quick game.
I board in 3 chants, 1 O.Ring and 1 grunt for 1 jitte, 3 finks and 1 wasteland (he plays monoblack).
Match 2: I land a turn 1 dog, disrupt his mana with port, and later mangara tricks. He kept a light mana hand, which makes it quite easy.

On to round 3, against White Weenie. 2-0
He plays without sleeves, so I guess it's a pretty bad aggroish deck, and I was right. I win both matches without much trouble.

Round 4 against goblins. 2-0
Match 1: This was actually a really great game, where Finks and Wisp shined, like nothing I have ever seen. I recieved 22 points of damage, but end the game with 14 life. Throughout the game, he attacks, and attack, but I keep killing his guys with finks, and the wisping it to remove the -1/-1 counter, until he's out of gas (I drew 2 finks, and 2 or 3 wisps), then his life goes 20 -> 18 -> 15 -> 6 -> 0.
I sideboard Forge-tenders and cataclysm in, I can't remember what I took out, but probably canonist and maybe mangara.
Match 2: He get's me on pressure, but I stabilize at 5, with finks, which takes me to 9 again. Then, after some draw go, I find a Jitte for my Forge-Tender, and win from there. I threw an unnescesary cataclysm during the game, which slowed him somewhat. I would've won regardless, I think.

Round 5: 42 lands (controlling version) 2-0
I didn't write many notes on round, but I got it was two great games.
Match 1: I lead with Isamaru on turn one. He plays manabond, but doesn't drop his hand, I can't remember why. The game develops, he gets Tabenacle, which is really annoying, but I have plenty of land, because I can keep him from wastelocking me with a grunt on the table. Together with 3 ports, i keep his relevant lands tapped, and grunt finishes him off.
I put grunts and cataclysm in, and takes mangara, I think, out.
Match 2: This looks like match one, only that he doesn't have tabernacle, and I have vial. I control the entire game.

After the 5 swiss rounds, I'm number 4. The only two dredge decks in the tourney also top8'ed, which sucked, as I thought nobody would play it :( I was knocked out by one of them. The match wasn't really interesting. Although I have to say, that Grunt doesn't do much, unless you can get to turn 3-4 before they put their library into their graveyard, which is not possible, with only forge-tender and grunt as dredge "hate".

I was really surprised, that Finks were that good. Maybe I just played agains decks where he's good, I don't know, he just seems like the perfect fit for the deck. I haven't tried figure, as I don't own them, but I certainly will, the next time i test with my buddies (might be quite a while, Christmas you know :) ).
All in all, I was really happy with how the deck performed.