[Deck] Death and Taxes

[Dice_Box]

I'm tolerant of them...they're just wrong.

This is not productive iatee. Sometimes people will just play that extra card. Thats their choice. You can disagree on its merits, but that does not mean that they do not always have merits.


I'm over this topic. Can we keep talking about the deck?

A fine plan.

[iatee]

Sorry I was mean guys.

[ParkerLewis]

The most obvious reason why this is wrong *especially* for DnT is that we are essentially an Aether Vial combo deck. Your win % with t1 Vial is massively higher than your win % without it. You are shaving a .5% chance of having it in your opening hand by doing this, which means 1/200 games go from being 65% to win to 45% to win, or however you want to weigh the EW % of t1 Vial hands. If we had an Aether Vial in our opening hand every game, we'd be the best deck in legacy. Doing something to ensure that you have it *less* often is crazy. If you could submit a 59 card deck, I would in an instant.

It is suboptimal in a way that will be barely noticeable, you can do a lot of small suboptimal things to a good deck and still win most of the time. But it is very obviously suboptimal.

This is the exact same failure of an argument that is used every time. You evaluate a proposal by calculating only what it costs you and negating what it provides you. What you've done is evaluate the effect of playing a blank 61st card. I'm not gonna get all giddy telling you that this is not exactly helpful.

There's a place between running 65-cards decks and joining the degerenate cult of "60 card is an absolute rule of law and going 61 is absolutely always wrong, we know this because we've managed to make the same one basic math calculation everyone is able to, but we're so proud of it there's no way we'll risk it by wondering if maybe there should also be other things to take into account". Oops, I realize I have almost cared for a couple minutes here, and I already regret this, as wisdom commands that there is just too many chances this is pointless. Happily someone once took the time to try to explain this, as linked before. If one's mind is still at least 1% able to process real reasoning on the matter, then one should read this (http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?p=593).

[Stevestamopz]

I once drafted a 73 card deck and it worked perfectly, I went 1-3 at the FNM with it. 60 card argument btfo!

So how's Frank going for everyone?

[Medea_]

Let's try to keep this thread productive and somewhat professional. We've discussed the 60 vs 61 card issue enough. Arguments have been made on both sides, and everyone is firmly entrenched in their own camp. Let's move on. Let's also kill this Frank thing while we are at it. I've said this plenty of times, but it was a funny joke, but if we keep it up, the readability of the thread decreases over time.

THC has been great for me in builds that can accelerate it out early, and I've been messing around with Hateful 8 builds again for that reason. I'm not sold on it in traditional D&T, but it is certainly putting up numbers and is not to be dismissed.

[iatee]

'Let's try to keep this thread productive and somewhat professional.' should have been my original response to 'Should we play 61 cards?'.

Anyway, I'm not going to spend any more energy trying to convince people not to sabotage their own decks.

[DemonicDust]

Medea...I tried your hateful 8 list tonight.Did not have Crucibles so ran 2 aether vial.Went 4-0.There was a hilarious interaction when I played jailer.Went to draw at end of turn and opponent asked why.I said....I am the monarch.He called a judge.The whole table was cracking up because he was so flabbergasted over the monarch thing.

[Medea_]

@Demonicdust

The shell is great. It plays out differently than D&T or the Eldrazi-based Hateful 8 decks, but it seems great. I'm 6-0 in sanctioned events with it and overall positive in my testing outside of that. If you don't have Crucibles, you could always just play a couple more Mindcensors to pair with the Ghost Quarters.

Yeah, I've had tons of people misplay against the Jailer or just be confused about how it worked. So many people assume it is like Banisher Priest or Fiend Hunter. I was playing against Burn yesterday, and my opponent bolted the Jailer to try and get his Eidolon back. Didn't quite work out for him...

[Lio]

I am temped to try out your turbo DnT, but missing some cards and I am not super excited about buying them (Chrome Mox). Tried several opening hands and openings like 3 lands and 3 creatures with cmc3 + noncreature spell happen more often than I would like to. What does the deck do if you do not draw Chrome Mox? You dropped Mom entirely and cut 2cc creatures drastically. Isn't deck too slow? How did you play out such games? On the other hand Chrome Mox into Thalia into Recruiter into Palace Jailer might be devastating..

[deucegg]

There was a hilarious interaction when I played jailer.Went to draw at end of turn and opponent asked why.I said....I am the monarch.

dumb question, but what exactly do you get to do if you're the "monarch"? didnt think there was anything involved other than basically getting the removed creature back by becoming the monarch yourself

[Isre Morn]

dumb question, but what exactly do you get to do if you're the "monarch"? didnt think there was anything involved other than basically getting the removed creature back by becoming the monarch yourself

Well, except the abilities of cards that interact with the monarch status which was introduced with conspiracy 2 you simply get to draw a card at the beginning of your end step as long as you are the monarch - as demonic dust mentioned already in his "little" tourney report.

Here is a short explanation of wizards: http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/conspiracy-take-crown-mechanics-2016-08-15

[Medea_]

@Lio

I'm winning most games where I draw a Chrome Mox in the opener; the card is really broken in this shell. While D&T's best draws have Vial in the opener, the immediate impact of Chrome Mox is much higher than that of Vial. A deck like Shardless, for example, just has no hope of beating T1 Thalia into T2 THC. Games where I get stuck on two mana sources for more than a turn or two are probably unwinnable though, as you don't have Vial as a source of salvation. I'm experimenting with a bunch of different ideas ranging from increasing the number of two drops to trying additional acceleration. Expect another article sometime in the next week or so with updated decklists and thoughts after more testing.

Palace Jailer is absurd. It feels so good to become the pretty pretty princess and drown your opponents in card advantage. If I return to playing regular D&T after calling this a failed experiment, I'll be including at least one Jailer in my 75 from here on out. It's so good that I've just tutored it up as a one sided Howling Mine on multiple occasions, even if I didn't have a creature to kill.

[deucegg]

alright..
but if your opponent deals dmg to you while you're the monarch, he automatically becomes the monarch and gets to draw, right?

[Medea_]

@Deucegg

It's specifically combat damage, but yes.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

How is this deck against MUD? It may not come up often, but it's pretty important to know what to do when you see it.

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[frenadol]

I'm pretty sure this deck has no issue demolishing MUD any time of the day, unless they get their Christmasland turn 3 Ugin explosive start. Plow/Revoke Metalworker, deny their mana, and Flickerwisp bounce their Ensnaring Bridge for the alpha strike.

I don't think I have lost a match against MUD in more than a year.

[Finn]

Funny thing about MUD. I used to lose to it when it was first explored by Caleb Durward's Tezzeret-centric builds. But I too have done well against it for a long time. I have not faced it since the advent of Recruiter/THC/Prelate, but I have to imagine that it is even better for us.

[iatee]

MUD is just a bad Eldrazi deck.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Man, such good advice Iatee. Thanks for your input.

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[contra]

MUD is just a bad Eldrazi deck.
I'd generally agree with this, although MUD can have more explosive starts such as t1 tomb-monolith-metalworker t2 ugin spirit dragon game over.

MUD is just not consistent enough to be a tier 1 deck, often times being flooded with 12-post lands, metal workers, and other mana accelerators.

Wasting/porting their cloudposts, having a play set of revokers and plenty of artifact hate g2&3 is how you beat MUD. Although, just like its younger bro Eldrazi, MUD can have some hands you just can't beat (see t1 trinisphere t2 metalworker)

[Secretly.A.Bee]

You agreed with a simple sentence that had, literally, no substance in relation to the question asked. None of you posted an actual answer.

What is the strategy? Board outs? Ins?

Material posts, please?

Edit: to be fair, ig contra touched on it, but not quite the overview one would be looking for going into a round against it.

[Elpresidente]

Our strongest cards against mud are much the same as the ones vs eldrazi, batterskull, wasteland, and port. Beyond that, sideboarding is a bit different. Against both I replace swords with paths as they have no basics typically. Against mud I'll also bring in my relic warders and council judgments. Typically speaking, mud just loses outrageously hard to batterskull in my experience.
Never cut flickerwisp, sfm, or revoker. They sometimes leave in their chalice so you can beat that with wisp pretty easily

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[iatee]

Both Eldrazi and MUD are trying to abuse Sol lands to ramp out big things + steal wins off t1 Chalice. The main difference is that Eldrazi's big things are cheaper and more consistent - if you're playing Sundering Titan and Lightning Greaves instead of Thought Knot Seer and Reality Smasher, then you're really just trying to tell the world "I'd wish I were playing EDH." Both decks keep some hand where they have some 'ramp into this big card' plan and then go into topdeck mode immediately, but MUD's topdecks are worse, since they're drawing into lots of setup and prison cards and their payoff cards are dead draws if they're being Wasted/Ported.

You stop both decks from ramping out big things with mana denial, which is more consistently good vs MUD because it's easier to cut someone off 10 mana than 4/5. Neither can deal with flyer + equipment and STP hits every bomb in their deck. Revoker/Thalia is better vs MUD because they have more non-creature stuff. Mom is even worse, since they rarely even have Dismember, so it's not even going to be accidentally relevant. Revoker targets are Metalworker, Ugin, Forgemaster, occasionally a Staff of Domination or Nin. Don't be too scared of Forgemaster though, they usually dump their board to get out something that just gets plowed. Ugin is the only actually scary card in their deck.

[Barook]

One D&T list in the Top 8 of GP Chiba (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/top-8-decklists-2016-11-27)

Apparently, he ran MD Palace Jailer. What's everybody's experience with it so far who have playtested it?

[Medea_]

@Barook
I'm a believer in the Jailer. I take back all of my criticisms of that card and openly admit that I wrongly dismissed it too quickly. It has been a house in my last two weeks of testing.

[ratninja]

@Barook
I'm a believer in the Jailer. I take back all of my criticisms of that card and openly admit that I wrongly dismissed it too quickly. It has been a house in my last two weeks of testing.

Which match ups and situations has it been good in your testing?

[Medea_]

It's not too much of an exaggeration to say that it's just generically good. In midrange matchups like Shardless, removing a Goyf on otherwise equal board can allow you to sit back and draw cards for a few turns while they fall more and more behind. In a matchup like Burn, you get to eat an Eidolon without taking damage and keep the gas flowing. Against creature light decks like Miracles, you can just ram it out there as a draw engine. I'm finding that I'm able to keep the Monarch status much more easily than my opponents in most cases. Jailer is better alongside THC or Mirran Crusader to help hold down the fort, and it makes Recruiter chump blocks feel pretty darn good.

[mrjumbo03]

^+1 on the Jailer.

I was experimenting with it in place of Banisher Priest. Got to draw 7 cards off of it. In one game.

This was against Abzan goodstuff, and he had a Sylvan Library on turn 2, but I still won. Usually, an early Sylvan Library means game. I ate a Tarmogoy with the Jailer. He responded to wipe my board the following turn with Massacre, but I quickly reloaded because of all the extra draws I was getting. I still had 2 Swords to Plowshares, 1 Path to Exile and 1 Council's Judgement in hand when the game ended. Needless to say, he probably wasn't getting Monarch anytime soon.

Another forumer from MTGS sold me on the idea when he pointed out that Palace Jailer is an automatic 2 for 1 the turn you play it, because you take away their best creature, and you immediately draw from the Monarch at the end of turn. Plus it's much easier to kill your Priest than go through combat and get Monarch, to get their creature back.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

He costs 4, that seems prohibitive. I know I'm a novice to the deck, but 4? I do want the draw, though. And I have banisher side, Mangara mained. I really like the one of Mangara, I think that it goes back to the roots of the deck, and in a list sporting 3+ Karakas, still has applications.

Iatee, thank you for sharing that. It will help me a lot. I do think that there are too many Revoker targets in the list, and too much variance in builds and draws to actually know what to name until after they play it. The matchup seems draw dependent, perhaps even a coin flip matchup, vial before they can Chalice and get your disruption online before they get going.

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[zebotc]

Some may not agree with me on this but I've always long considered (without acceleration) 4 mana cards to be the threshold of playability in legacy. Having not tried it myself palace jailer from what I've seen sounds like a very powerful card to be running. Not only is it a human for cavern of souls, but it fills in a long needed gap our deck has never been able to reliably fill (besides recruiter) which is card advantage. Usually throughout a game unless we draw a recruiter we slowely run out of crucial resources to stop our opponent. Even though we have a powerful late game it sometimes feels like we are just barely holding on. Personally I think palace jailer helps to fill the roll of not only a tutorable removal spell but also a very good card draw engine. Being 4 mana is 100% made up for by what it fundamentally does for our deck. Just like miracles running jace or us running Gideon, 4 mana is usually fine as long as it's impactful.

[iatee]

I had only tested it vs Miracles, where it got Fow'd. My concern vs Miracles in particular is losing the Monarch status to surprise Snapcaster beats. If they manage to steal the crown, it's basically like they have a Jace out. I'd rather have Banisher Priest vs Eldrazi since you need the effect quickly + out of Aether Vial and the chance of them getting through with a creature is pretty high. It's a weird effect, obviously planeswalker-level powerful when it's good, but it's hard to judge the downside since it's really abstract and dependent on boardstates. With Eldrazi as the most popular deck in legacy, I would prefer to have Banisher Priest *and* this guy in my 75 and mostly consider him a planeswalker/Cataclysm card advantage bomb rather than a removal spell with upside.

[Patrunkenphat7]

Has anyone tried Stillmoon Cavalier for the mirror? I know equipment is often the most important factor in the mirror, but built in pro-everything is great both with and against the equipment plan.

[Agrippa91]

Has anyone tried Stillmoon Cavalier for the mirror? I know equipment is often the most important factor in the mirror, but built in pro-everything is great both with and against the equipment plan.

It just dies to SOFI and Jitte and can't block when you don't have mana open, Mirran Crusader attacks or Mom gives the equipped creature protection. Not a D&T player here, but my logic always is that you want to avoid narrow sb-slots that are only good in a single matchup unless that deck is common and you're unfavored against it. It might be good in a local meta but definitely not if you want to be able to beat most of the 50-ish established Legacy decks.

[deucegg]

@iatee are you still on the ghostquarter main/sb plan, cutting 1 port maindeck? ive actually played your land configuration in some local events with good success, yet sometimes i just feel forced to waste/ghost quarter their lands instead of ramping up to 3 (which is possible with port while still denying mana) which sometimes causes problems as my list is pretty 3 drop heavy. have you considered running 4 ports 2 quarters main instead of 3 ports?

[colo]

Has anyone tried Stillmoon Cavalier for the mirror? I know equipment is often the most important factor in the mirror, but built in pro-everything is great both with and against the equipment plan.

I have, and it usually dominates that matchup. If you expect the mirror a lot, having a copy in your 75 will be good for you. Only downside is that you can't give it _additional_ protection with Mother of Runes yourself.

[DarthVicious]

Has anyone tried Stillmoon Cavalier for the mirror? I know equipment is often the most important factor in the mirror, but built in pro-everything is great both with and against the equipment plan.

I tried it also. Decent for Miracles too, as long as it sticks it forces them to Terminus. On the other hand, I found it more useful to have Paladin en-Vec for Jund, as they can't touch him with removal. 'Headless Horseman' dies to Bolts all the time. But I still got a couple in my binder.

[iatee]

@iatee are you still on the ghostquarter main/sb plan, cutting 1 port maindeck? ive actually played your land configuration in some local events with good success, yet sometimes i just feel forced to waste/ghost quarter their lands instead of ramping up to 3 (which is possible with port while still denying mana) which sometimes causes problems as my list is pretty 3 drop heavy. have you considered running 4 ports 2 quarters main instead of 3 ports?

I'm still going back and forth on numbers, I think ultimately they've gotta be a metacall. 4 Ports 2 Quarters 4 Waste means you're at 25 land unless you drop a colored source and 25 is quite a lot...even with all the 3 drops, I think 24 is a tiny bit high. In any case, you always have the option to sit on your GQ/Wastelands for a few turns if you need to cast a 3 drop.

Yesterday I ran a pretty normal manabase with 2 GQ in the SB since my local store has de-Eldrazied a bit. That might be a better compromise. Or maybe 4 Port/1 Quarter/4 Waste, 2 GQ in the SB - doesn't commit as much in the main, but still gives you the 7 Wasteland + 7 STP plan post-board for Delver/Eldrazi/Lands/Infect decks.

So something like this:

Manabase:
7 Plains
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Flagstones
4 Wasteland
4 Port
1 GQ
3 Karakas
2 Cavern

SB:
2 RIP
2 GQ
3 Path
2 Cataclysm
1 Ethersworn
1 Relic Warder
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Containment Priest
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Mirran Crusader

[JamesFlipside]

Hi all,
Just thought I'd share my two pence worth.
Went up to UK eternal weekend at manaleak last weekend.
Came first in the Swiss at 7-1 (three tables before me IDed), unfortunately lost in the quarter finals.
Attendance was around 80 players I believe.

This was my list:
Creatures (26)
4 Mum
4 Thalian GoT
4 Stoneforge
2 Serra Avenger
3 Revoker
3 Flickerwisp
3 Sanctum Prelate
2 Recruiter oTG
1 Banisher Priest
Non-creature spells (11)
4 STP
4 Vial
1 Batter
1 Jitte
1 SoFI
Lands (23)
2 Cavern
3 Karakas
4 Port
4 Waste
10 plains

Let me just say at this stage that I only realised after the event that I was running 23 lands... Even though I wrote a deck list I didn't spot it :rolleyes:

Sideboard:
3 RIP
2 Path
2 Gideon AoZ
1 Councils Judgement
1 Pithing Needle
2 Canonist
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Intrepid Hero
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

I have never written a match report let alone a full blown tournament so I'm afraid all I can offer at this stage is an overview. I will be grabbing a notebook to carry around with me in future and making a point of scribbling summaries after games in future if you guys think this is of any value.

In total during the seven rounds of Swiss I faced the following opponents (in no particular order)
Grixis delver
Eldrazi
UB reanimator
Infect
Miracles (my one loss)
Leylines
RUG delver (I think) - win and in... I was knackered at this stage and the guy wasn't playing great... He had Goyf and shaman... He didn't really put up a fight

Smashed through all the opponents without too much bother but conceded to Miracles piloted by Kayure from team Axiom (he won a GP... Decent player). I wasn't going to win through Jace and mentor but could have pushed it into a draw... Wanted a coffee though so hey "fuck it"!
Lost in the quarter finals agains a guy called Mark piloting Miracles. He's a beast!
I over extended into a terminus and didn't use my prelates wisely.
Also generally I find Miracles hard to beat when it's piloted by someone solid. If they're not proficient it's easy as hell but I need more experience testing and boarding against the deck.
Advice welcomed :smile:

Main deck Banisher Priest over performed in loads of match ups! Definitely a permanent feature of my list moving forward providing the meta dictates the necessity for removal.
I feel like the main deck is solid. I'd take out the 23rd land (10th plains) and add a fourth Flickerwisp. I was attempting to keep the curve as low as possible as I feel that the three-heavy builds lose a lot of the speed and aggression that works to our advantage. In my opinion it's ok if I force my opponent to spend resources dealing with two drops so I can jam a Prelate and assemble a soft-lock. However in retrospect the fourth Flickerwisp is needed and so much more important now we have the new toys.

I'm rubbish at side boarding and need to get into the routine of preparing properly.
I know I boarded badly in a few games.

The Pontiff if cheesy I know but when he works he is hilarious. Kill multiple true-name or pyro tokens etc.
I'm sad to say I wish he was a second councils judgement though.
Intrepid Hero is solid as hell! Takes Eldrazi apart while also having good collateral against reanimator etc.
The sideboard sword is great.
Relic warder is dodgy but better than running multiple disenchants in my opinion.

Random ideas:
Miranda Crusader... I miss him! Anyone running him in the board?
Grand abolisher Vs miracles?
Kambal, Consul of Allocation... I know he has so much competition for the three slot and his effect is ancillary considering we have Canonist and Thalia but could he be good vs Miracles or Delver decks? I seem to always get Miracles to <5 life before they stabilise and pull the game back, jam him turn three and he's bound to at least get 4 drained before he goes.

What do you all think?
Miracles advice would be great, as would all constructive criticism.
Also, anyone got a method that they use to take notes for event reports? My memory isn't great with details!

[NeckBird]

Hi all,
Just thought I'd share my two pence worth.
Went up to UK eternal weekend at manaleak last weekend.
Came first in the Swiss at 7-1 (three tables before me IDed), unfortunately lost in the quarter finals.
Attendance was around 80 players I believe.

This was my list:
Creatures (26)
4 Mum
4 Thalian GoT
4 Stoneforge
2 Serra Avenger
3 Revoker
3 Flickerwisp
3 Sanctum Prelate
2 Recruiter oTG
1 Banisher Priest
Non-creature spells (11)
4 STP
4 Vial
1 Batter
1 Jitte
1 SoFI
Lands (23)
2 Cavern
3 Karakas
4 Port
4 Waste
10 plains

Let me just say at this stage that I only realised after the event that I was running 23 lands... Even though I wrote a deck list I didn't spot it :rolleyes:

Sideboard:
3 RIP
2 Path
2 Gideon AoZ
1 Councils Judgement
1 Pithing Needle
2 Canonist
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Intrepid Hero
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

I have never written a match report let alone a full blown tournament so I'm afraid all I can offer at this stage is an overview. I will be grabbing a notebook to carry around with me in future and making a point of scribbling summaries after games in future if you guys think this is of any value.

In total during the seven rounds of Swiss I faced the following opponents (in no particular order)
Grixis delver
Eldrazi
UB reanimator
Infect
Miracles (my one loss)
Leylines
RUG delver (I think) - win and in... I was knackered at this stage and the guy wasn't playing great... He had Goyf and shaman... He didn't really put up a fight

Smashed through all the opponents without too much bother but conceded to Miracles piloted by Kayure from team Axiom (he won a GP... Decent player). I wasn't going to win through Jace and mentor but could have pushed it into a draw... Wanted a coffee though so hey "fuck it"!
Lost in the quarter finals agains a guy called Mark piloting Miracles. He's a beast!
I over extended into a terminus and didn't use my prelates wisely.
Also generally I find Miracles hard to beat when it's piloted by someone solid. If they're not proficient it's easy as hell but I need more experience testing and boarding against the deck.
Advice welcomed :smile:

Main deck Banisher Priest over performed in loads of match ups! Definitely a permanent feature of my list moving forward providing the meta dictates the necessity for removal.
I feel like the main deck is solid. I'd take out the 23rd land (10th plains) and add a fourth Flickerwisp. I was attempting to keep the curve as low as possible as I feel that the three-heavy builds lose a lot of the speed and aggression that works to our advantage. In my opinion it's ok if I force my opponent to spend resources dealing with two drops so I can jam a Prelate and assemble a soft-lock. However in retrospect the fourth Flickerwisp is needed and so much more important now we have the new toys.

I'm rubbish at side boarding and need to get into the routine of preparing properly.
I know I boarded badly in a few games.

The Pontiff if cheesy I know but when he works he is hilarious. Kill multiple true-name or pyro tokens etc.
I'm sad to say I wish he was a second councils judgement though.
Intrepid Hero is solid as hell! Takes Eldrazi apart while also having good collateral against reanimator etc.
The sideboard sword is great.
Relic warder is dodgy but better than running multiple disenchants in my opinion.

Random ideas:
Miranda Crusader... I miss him! Anyone running him in the board?
Grand abolisher Vs miracles?
Kambal, Consul of Allocation... I know he has so much competition for the three slot and his effect is ancillary considering we have Canonist and Thalia but could he be good vs Miracles or Delver decks? I seem to always get Miracles to <5 life before they stabilise and pull the game back, jam him turn three and he's bound to at least get 4 drained before he goes.

What do you all think?
Miracles advice would be great, as would all constructive criticism.
Also, anyone got a method that they use to take notes for event reports? My memory isn't great with details!

What other decks were in the Top 8?

[Luca Grease]

Hi all,

Miracles advice would be great


A lot of people ITT would tell you that Miracles was a reasonably good matchup before, and an easy one now that DnT has access to Prelate and Recruiter.

The simple truth is that you'll lose most games where you don't have an Aether Vial AND a good amount of resilient disruption going (such as Port + Thalia + Karakas, or Port + Revoker + active Mom) against competent Miracle players. Prelate and Recruiter are fine cards against them, but updated lists have too many ways to deal with a resolved Prelate (Judgement, Explosives, Kozilek's, Jacebounce) for it to stick most of the times, and the card advantage of recruiter, while handy as a supplement to your main disruption elements, is not enough on its own to keep up with their more powerful forms of CA such as Terminus, Jace, Entreat, Mentor, Snapcaster, or card quality (cantrips, top).

[Ancestral]

report

congratz on the finish ! about the miracles matchup i tend to grind them out with 1 or 2 creatures at the time, and always go get the SoFI, wich it turns every single creature in a must answer card, this way you should get a great source of card advantage or a lot of 1 for 1 wich is good for you. However there aren´t much we can do against a good timed entreat or a late game mentor&top, so they can steal games that way of course, but i think its a favorable matchup now.

my last 2 matches against miracles i won 2 games where my opp had 17 and 16 cards in the deck. one game was won with just a thalia, cavern and karakas with SoFI on the table, he was diggin for every answer in his deck and i had a plenty of time to have a full grip of threats, but after multiple turns dodging stw and terminus the game was over.

to conclude i´m testing paace jailer wich helps to provide some card advantage, i´m not sold on it already but it´s been okay so far.

[RobNC]

Played last night for the first time in a while. I dropped Avengers and went back up to 3 Caverns, and the only time I regret it was when I was getting Wastelanded to death and couldn't find a Plains, but it didn't color screw me otherwise. I was also pretty happy with the creature package, although my relationship with Recruiter is still iffy. I also did not see THC all night, which was a bummer as I'm still trying to give her a chance.

4 Mom
4 SFM
4 TGT
2 THC
4 Flickerwisp
3 Revoker
2 Sanctum Prelate
2 Recruiter
1 Mirran Crusader

Prelate single handedly won me games against Lands, which I played twice last night. Both were on the Rishadan Port and Punishing Fire package instead of the newer Ghost Quarter lists. I had a funny moment in one game where I had Prelates on both 1 and 2, and the opponent goes "so you're locked out of your Swords?" I didn't realize I did that so I shrugged and agreed. He makes Marit Lage at my EOT, swings to attack, and I vial in a Flickerwisp. I was very happy I went back up to 4 of them as they were great last night.

RG Lands: 1-1-1 (probably would have lost G3 but we went to turns)
Miracles: 2-0 (new player borrowing the deck, G1 Prelate on 1 locked him, G2 he got mana screwed)
Burn: 2-0 (new player and had really bad draws; unanswered Batterskull carried away both games)
RG Lands: 2-1 (G1 Prelates on 2 and 1 bought me enough time plus the timely Flickerwisp, G2 he had a quick Lage, G3 went on for probably 30-40 minutes but I was able to grind him out with Mirran Crusader attacking through his Tireless Tracker when I had opportunities to either Port or Flicker his Maze of Ith)


Over the last two months I've been spending a lot of time playing other decks, particularly Maverick, but last night reminded me why I love D&T so damn much.

[Dice_Box]

I have a friend who wishes to make DnT their entry into Legacy. The issue is, he has been a standard player up until this point. Is there any kind of "Watered down" lists that would be good for a newer player finding their feet, or should I just throw him in the deep end and prop him up as best I can myself in the short term?

[RobNC]

To the deep end!

I feel like if he'd want a watered down list then Maverick would be better - it has some of the tricks of D&T but can also just beat down with Knights.

As you know D&T needs a decent knowledge of the format as a whole as a big part of your game plan is neutralizing your opponent's biggest threats while playing around others, so if you don't know what else is out there it gets difficult. I jumped headfirst into Legacy with D&T and it was a hell of a learning curve. Dropping a Revoker against ANT and not knowing what to name because you aren't familiar with the deck feels real bad when you pass the turn it's followed by multiple LEDs and Lotus Petals.

[Curby]

Everyone's different, but here are some thoughts.

D&T has a ton of both internal and external interactions, and knowledge of the meta and of particular matchups is particularly important. What CMCs and cards do you name with Prelate and Revoker? What equipment/creatures do you fetch? When do you play a control vs aggro role? Do you know how the answers to those questions change not just based on matchup but also depending on the board state?

I hope that your friend likes control archetypes, likes decks with tons of interaction, and is a fast learner. Those factors will make D&T a more reasonable first deck choice. Otherwise, they may get overwhelmed and give up.

As for easier versions of the deck, things were simpler when we ran 4 Avengers and 3 Crusaders. In general, the more full playsets and 3x cards you have in your deck, the easier the deck is to handle. Toolboxes are hard to pilot. The introduction of Recruiter and Prelate result in more decisions to make. I'm not advocating for returning to the more aggressive build in general, though it is an option for a newer player.

[Fry]

I have a friend who wishes to make DnT their entry into Legacy. The issue is, he has been a standard player up until this point. Is there any kind of "Watered down" lists that would be good for a newer player finding their feet, or should I just throw him in the deep end and prop him up as best I can myself in the short term?

As an entry into Legacy I think more of the straight forward lists would be better. I'd suggest maybe something with Leonin Arbiters with all the fetches, SFM, Recruiters, and random other tutor cards. Leaving most of the tricks to start with being Flickerwisps, and possibly Mangara/Karakas along with the typical AEther Vial shenanigans. I'd recommend holding off on the Recruiters until he gets a little more familiar with the format, but of course keep in the SFM as it's insanely powerful and I'd suggest Manriki-Gusari in the board with all the D&T around.

Being thrown into the deep end with this deck is a great way to learn it if you already have some knowledge of the format. My first foray into the D&T awesomeness was round 1 game 1 after talking about it with a couple friends the night before. Ended up beating the only person who beat me in the swiss in the finals ^_^ But then I had been playing Legacy for quite some time before playing the deck, and I was learning new little tricks here and there for the next couple years in tournaments.

[from Cairo]

I have a friend who wishes to make DnT their entry into Legacy. The issue is, he has been a standard player up until this point. Is there any kind of "Watered down" lists that would be good for a newer player finding their feet, or should I just throw him in the deep end and prop him up as best I can myself in the short term?

I would go with a "Deep End" list and see if you can get a 3rd strong pilot to test the meta against, then you can coach your friend 2v1 in how major match ups play and what our deck of answers best address opponents/board states. IE get someone to play a gauntlet - Miracles, Shardless, Storm, SnT, Eldrazi, Elves etc (proxied if need be) and kind of outline the best cards in the deck against them, help them with mulliganing (does their hand address the opp's strategy), what to pull up with SFM/Recruiter, what to Revoker/Prelate targets are likely present in the opp's deck, and how to SB what does/doesn't matter, what they're likely to bring in, etc.

[JamesFlipside]

What other decks were in the Top 8?

Here's the coverage article with lists
http://www.manaleak.com/mtguk/2016/12/eternal-weekend-top-8-decklists-summary-modern-legacy-vintage-oldschool/

[RobNC]

I felt rather triumphant in G3 of a round against an Esper Deathblade deck last night, after getting crushed G2 with True Name Nemesis and an Engineered Plague on Human.

My board in G3 was Aether Vial on 3, Mom, SFM, Thalia GT, and Revoker naming Engineered Explosives (which was on 1). I have a Batterskull, Flickerwisp, and Mirran Crusader in hand. My opponent has nothing else on board except about 4 or 5 lands and the EE. He drops Engineered Plague on Human once again, killing Mom and TGT. I believe I vial in a Mirran Crusader after, which stays at 1/1.

After a turn or two of swinging into his empty board he casts Zealous Persecution, wiping away my Revoker and Mirran Crusader. He then pops EE to take care of my vial, so in response I Vial in Flickerwisp targeting SFM. SFM fetches Sword of Fire and Ice, Vial goes to the graveyard, and I end up with SFM and Flickerwisp for a board. Hand is just Batterskull and SoFI.

Next turn opponent casts Council's Judgment. I think for a second he's either going to take my SFM, or is baiting me to put in Batterskull (since I didn't have enough mana to hard cast it) and will take that instead. I respond with SFM, putting in SoFI instead (knowing that if it survived I could hope to equip Flickerwisp and start catching up on cards). He picks SOFI, much to my delight. Next turn I put in Batterskull, and it combined with Flickerwisp start getting in all the damage I needed. I don't remember the last turn completely but I'm pretty sure I cast another Flickerwisp to flicker out a blocker to attack for lethal or had Plowed his only blocker. (I ended up flickering a lot of blockers last night to win games, it felt so good!).

So very glad I've gone back to 4 Flickerwisp, it's been amazing. I seriously undervalued it for too long.

[TGCRequiem]

I am looking to proxy up a D&T list for my buddy who is considering moving into the format to test out before he commits. Could one of you D&T experts please recommend a baseline list to play with either a link to a Goldfish list and/or a good article to a list also includes general matchup sideboarding plans. I'm hoping to have a printout I can stuff in the deckbox to help him more quickly acclimate. I really thought I'd see a lot more homogenized set of lists on Goldfish than I'm seeing so I'm not sure which direction seems to be the "most" standard.

If it helps in choosing a deck, these are the decks we have in our typical playgroup:
Elves
Reanimator
Shardless
Burn x 2
Affinity
Goblins

That said we are also planning to proxy up Grixis Delver (w/DRS), Storm (ANT version), Lands, Miracles (a mentor version), and Eldrazi so we have can have a gauntlet for us to all practice with and against, so please don't make the list to hyper focused on the existing playgroup decks.

Thank you for any help you are able to offer.

[RobNC]

There are four reasons why you aren't seeing consistent lists of Death and Taxes:

The price of Rishadan Port online is insane compared to the rest of the deck, and I think even more expensive than it's paper counterpart.
Thalia, Heretic Cathar
Recruiter of the Guard
Sanctum Prelate

The deck had a pretty consistent list until the new Thalia was printed, and then Conspiracy 2 (with Prelate and Recruiter) shook everything up yet again, and we as the D&T community still haven't decided what's best, as you can see by the last few months' worth of lists.

For more consistent lists, and something that some may argue would be easier to learn (as they're less reliant on the toolbox approach and figuring out what number to name with Prelate), look for lists from before Conspiracy 2 came out.

[TGCRequiem]

We really want him to get to play with the new cards as it sounds like they've given the deck a little boost. It's also more accurate from our own testing. Since it sounds like the deck is in a bit of flux I went to MTGTop8 compared the top decks and basically built the "average" deck. I know sometimes that looses a little something, but this is the list https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/522542#online.

[RobNC]

We really want him to get to play with the new cards as it sounds like they've given the deck a little boost. It's also more accurate from our own testing. Since it sounds like the deck is in a bit of flux I went to MTGTop8 compared the top decks and basically built the "average" deck. I know sometimes that looses a little something, but this is the list https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/522542#online.

That's a very solid "current" list. I say go for it.

[Plague Sliver]

We really want him to get to play with the new cards as it sounds like they've given the deck a little boost. It's also more accurate from our own testing. Since it sounds like the deck is in a bit of flux I went to MTGTop8 compared the top decks and basically built the "average" deck. I know sometimes that looses a little something, but this is the list https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/522542#online.

+1. Looks like a solid list to me as well.

[LeoCop 90]

The obvious change to that list is removing thalia, heretic cathar for a card that is worth tutoring for like mirran crusader, banisher priest, mangara or palace jailer.

I think by now is pretty much clear that thalia heretic cathar is a card you either play in multiples or don't play at all.

[contra]

The obvious change to that list is removing thalia, heretic cathar for a card that is worth tutoring for like mirran crusader, banisher priest, mangara or palace jailer.

I think by now is pretty much clear that thalia heretic cathar is a card you either play in multiples or don't play at all.

Very true IMO - besides, taking the mean mtgtop8.com death and taxes deck already averages exactly 1 Mirran Crusader. Having an extra Serra Avenger instead of THC looks like this :

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Horizon Canopy
9 Plains
4 Mother of Runes
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Recruiter of the Guard
4 Flickerwisp
2 Sanctum Prelate
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
2 Serra Avenger
4 Aether Vial
1 Mirran Crusader

[RobNC]

Also a good looking list! When I have Serra Avenger in my deck there's never a time I wish I drew something else.

[Ancestral]

Very true IMO - besides, taking the mean mtgtop8.com death and taxes deck already averages exactly 1 Mirran Crusader. Having an extra Serra Avenger instead of THC looks like this :

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Horizon Canopy
9 Plains
4 Mother of Runes
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Recruiter of the Guard
4 Flickerwisp
2 Sanctum Prelate
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
2 Serra Avenger
4 Aether Vial
1 Mirran Crusader

my list has just a small difference, 10 plains and no horizon canopy.

people playing canopy, do you think it´s worth it?

[Marungo]

my list has just a small difference, 10 plains and no horizon canopy.

people playing canopy, do you think it´s worth it?

I've never seen a huge downside to playing canopy. It's a draw spell late, the damage rarely hurts and we already have plenty of wasteable sources. I never understood not playing canopy unless you want like 3 caverns or something.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I play one in addition to 3 Caverns and I like it. However, I would also say it's not a HUGE boost; I wouldn't play one of I had to drop 60+ bucks on one...

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[pedro]

Hi everybody, I'm new here, I used to play Burn in legacy but now I'm playing D&T since few months.
I really like the deck but I always played the more aggro version (the "old" one) adjusted with THC.
My current decklist is something similar to Thomas Enevoldsen's one from Prague.
Now, I would like to start playing some new list but I don't know how to balance numbers between the new cards.

This is what I think is necessary, but I would like so have some suggestions about the remaining slots (4):

2 Cavern of Souls
3 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
10 Plains (because i would like to play 1 magus of the moon in the sideboard)

3 Mother of Runes
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Flickerwisp
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Sanctum Prelate

1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial

First of all: how many recruiters? 2 or 3?
As "bigger" creatures what do you prefer? Why? (THC/Avengers/Crusader)
As "utility" creatures instead (spirit of the labirinth, banisher priest, ecc.)?

What I think:

THC
It is useful, it slows down creature based deck and it provides some TGT effect. I mean that versus decks with few basics land, if I pass the turn and he has 2 duals on the battlefield, I'm sure that he can't cast a Liliana next turn dropping a land from hand. It is useful versus elves and eldrazi, and shuts down sneak attack. I don't think that playing a single copy makes much sense, two is the right number for this card.

Serra Avenger
3/3 flying, nothing else to say, vigilance is very powerful in D&T but he has no "control effects". It's very useful vs creature based decks to load jitte, to block delver or to win the race versus a true-name nemesis. It also makes a better mana curve, but it is not human. In a "recruiter-based" deck a single copy makes no sense, 2x or nothing.

Mirran Crusader
A piece that it's like a finisher, very good versus BUG. Playing a single copy still makes sense.

I'm attending a big tournament next sunday but I have no time to test.
I could play the more aggro version, maybe adding prelates, but I saw that the "much control" one is doing very well recently.
Suggestions?

[Ancestral]

4th MOM, 2 avengers 1 crusader in my list.

i´ve seen a few lists with only 3 mother of runes... can´t understand that, its the reason why i started to pplay this deck, só strong!

[Curby]

i´ve seen a few lists with only 3 mother of runes... can´t understand that, its the reason why i started to pplay this deck, só strong!

The first reasons that come to mind are Terminus, Toxic Deluge, Kozilek's Return, Massacre, and Eldrazi.dec. I'm not saying 3 is definitely right, but I can easily see a meta where it's not wrong. I happened to be on 3 in my last event and it worked out alright. I even had a game where I had to attack with two Moms for three turns in a row because I really needed the damage: there are definitely game states where her activated ability isn't all that great.

@Pedro my additions to your core would be 2 THC, 1 Recruiter, 1 Crusader, but I'm definitely not sold on that being ideal. I was mostly wanting to try THC because I never have before.

[RobNC]

Some people want to cut Moms because you can still win a whole lot of games without her, and there are a few matchups where she does next to nothing (especially Eldrazi). It's also hard to find slots for our new toys because we have so many 4-ofs.

THC is awesome when she comes down early. I find opponents are often more afraid of her than TGT. Late game she's often underwhelming, though.

Mirran Crusader has won me more games singlehandedly than any other creature, but it was also typically against BG/x decks. He still eats Bolts, Plows, and Punishing Fires just the same as everyone else.

Avenger is great but not tutorable and is nothing but a beat stick that carries equipment very well. I've recently cut her for more slots that affect the board besides power and toughness, and increasing my Human count also allowed me to safely go up to 3 Caverns. Lots of blue decks in my meta.

[Adan]

I actually believe that Thalia, Heretic Cathar is bad. It's pretty nuts when you're playing a white Eldrazi Stompy kind of thing where you can go MoxD, Ancient Tomb, THC. But in DnT she comes down on Turn3 earliest. She's good against Eldrazi as it essentially means their Reality Smashers won't have Haste, but in a lot of other matchups she is kind of mediocre. I mean, she's probably solid as a card per se, but she does not have as much impact on a certain matchup compared to Mangara of Corondor against Miracles, Mirran Crusader against BG/x, Sanctum Prelate against Show and Tell decks or Lands where he shuts down PunFire, Decay and Loam (he can do similar against Jund).

I do believe the current consensus list is kinda like this:

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Horizon Canopy
10 Plains
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Flickerwisp
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Serra Avenger
2 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Banisher Priest
1 Mirran Crusader
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
4 Aether Vial

A lot of lists play Mangara of Corondor instead of Banisher Priest, I personally prefer the Priest for its more immediate impact. It's super bad against Miracles for instance, but in every combat-oriented matchup I find the Priest to be strictly better as the Mangara engine requires 3 cards to work properly, is vulnerable to basically anything and slow. I do believe this is a meta choice.
The sideboard can be customized very well and there are cards like Leonin Relic Warder that I'll play around with a little bit.

[autonom]

Here is my current list:

Creatures:26
4 Mother of Runes
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
3 Recruiter of the Guard
3 Sanctum Prelate
1 Palace Jailer

Spells:11
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

Lands:23
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Karakas
11 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:15
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Fiendslayer Paladin
4 Chrome Mox
2 Path to Exile
2 Rest in Peace

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Ooh, I like your list! That sideboard has me a little hot and bothered.

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[RobNC]

Which matchups do you bring the Chrome Mox in for?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Imo anything where faster = better. Combo like SnT/Reanimator and storm where your best plays are t1 Thalia into t2 Prelate. Against storm you can probably drop moms for them, and you also have Canonist you can drop on turn 1 via mox. Moxen are also good on the draw against Daze lists. Not so sure against SnT, depends on the version, I suppose.

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[autonom]

I board Chrome Mox in

as faster mana

when I only need to resolve a few key cards to win: Storm
against decks that race me: Elves
when I need to race: Turbo Eldrazi


as more mana

against resource denial decks: Pox


as replacement for some copies of Aether Vial

when on the draw in non-grindy matchups


These scenarios overlap. I bring in some copies of Chorme Mox often. I have also tried with 3 copies in the board as I dont board in the fourth copy as often as the first.

[AsmodeusDM]

I've been having GREAT success with my current Chrome Mox (mainboard) list.. so I can definitely see the value in Chrome Mox in the board against certain kinds of match-ups.

My current list:
3 Moms
4 Thalia, GoT
3 SFM
3 Revoker
4 Flickerwisp
3 Recruiter
3 Prelate
3 Thalia, HC
1 Jitte
1 SoFI
1 Skull
4 StP
4 Vial
2 Chrome Mox
4 Wasteland
4 Port
9 Plains
3 Karakas
2 Cavern

(yes it's 61 cards.. for that elusive 23.5 land-base)

Even in games vs. miracles (where you think Chrome mox would be at it's worse) being able to power out a T1 Thalia or a T2 Prelate can be huge. Against lands I had a THC out on T2 and it just completely derailed their whole gameplan.

Also I love being able to play around daze to protect things like my vial or mom on T1. Land-drop, play chrome mox (they can't daze), then cast Vial (can't daze).

Being able to get t1 SFM for Jitte against historically bad MUs like Elves is big game; as you can deploy it t2 and connect with it t3 (as opposed to t4 as usual). One game (magic xmasland I know) post board I was able to go (on the play). T1: Land+Mox for SFM and Jitte. T2: land, Mirran Crusader. T3: land, play and equip jitte to Crusader->Swing -> opponent concedes.


I haven't missed the 4th SFM; but I do sometimes miss the 4th mom. I've been running a 3/3 split on recruiter and prelate because I want to continue to gets reps and games with the card to really see how they perform. I feel like 3x recruiter makes 1x or 2x silver-bullet creatures in my board just more potent and effective... and with mox in some % of games... being able to T2 recruiter for the silver bullet and casting it on T3 reliably feels pretty good to me.

Prelate is just so good in so many match-ups... many of my opponents say it's a must kill and it's the card they fear the most. Not playing 3 (or even 2+1) just seems.. wrong?

in the last SCG legacy 5k I was in a few weeks ago I played against a UR delver player who had the following cards in his main:
- 1x Roast
- 2x Sudden Shock
- 1x Fire/Ice

While the roast was also a concession to TKS and RSmasher; he said the 4 cards were in the deck specifically because "D&T forced me to do this because of Sanctum Prelate".

[ChemicalBurns]

So previously I've been running this:

Creatures: (26)
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Serra Avenger
4 Flickerwisp
2 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Sanctum Prelate
1 Mirran Crusader

Non-Creature Spells: (11)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Lands: (23)
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Horizon Canopy
9 Plains

Interestingly, the main I ended up on (I didn't do this on purpose, I swear!) ended up exactly the same as the mtgtop8 averaged deck list posted a page back.

Sideboard: (15)
2 Containment Priest
2 Council's Judgment
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Path to Exile
2 Rest in Peace
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Mangara of Corondor
1 Pithing Needle

Side is pretty straightforward too.

Anyway, today I ended going well in a small local tournament, splitting the finals. The largest change I made was:

Main:
-1 Crusader
-1 Flickerwisp
+2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar

SB:
-1 Containment Priest
-1 Mangara of Corondor
+1 Palace Jailer
+1 Mirran Crusader

Primarily to test THC. Overall, I found her fine. But certainly replaceable. The most tangible utility she ended up having was being an uncounterable beatstick that I could defend with Karakas to give Miracles headaches. I'm not really that unimpressed with her effect (it does certainly shine at times, but D&T truly does not capitalise on her well compared to other shells), but the thing I hate most about her is how slot-inefficient she is. Just like Avenger, she needs to be played as at least a two-of, even though she is tutorable (unlike Avenger, which is why a two-of is necessary), because as we know, she's pretty awful (or at least below-par) when not curved into naturally. Furthermore, she cuts into the three-drop slot, of which the only truly replaceable one is Crusader (cutting the fourth Flickerwisp was more an experiment to remind myself, yeah, this certainly should be a four-of, as it was brilliant all day). If we're not cutting a Wisp, then we need to cut into Avenger or Prelate. Prelate I'm sure everyone has realised is quite quite busted, and is perfect to curve into or tutor (which is the epitome of a great card in our deck, of course). Avenger has been brilliant against the fair decks of the world (especially the mirror - I have trumped almost every mirror match I've played recently due to Avenger playing offence/defence simultaneously) and has notably kept the curve tight which I think should be one of our main concerns (also why I'm not a fan of cutting a Mom - compared to the rest of Legacy we're actually sorely lacking things to do on t1 if we don't draw t1 Vial or Mom). I don't think going to one Avenger is really all too feasible.

Jailer I never drew today, but I'll keep testing it over the Mangara as I get chances to play. In the end they're essentially filling the same grindy slow tutorable creature role, I suppose. I think it'll likely be fine.

tl;dr - my conclusions come to THC being playable, certainly, but incredibly slot-inefficient in our already crammed decklist - warping our deck with more acceleration etc. is the only way to push her favourably, and you're essentially going down the E&T path then. Avenger is still amazing at bridging the deck's now awkward-ish curve, and I'd continue to highly recommend her.

[RobNC]

ChemicalBurns, do you have a tourney report?

[TGCRequiem]

The obvious change to that list is removing thalia, heretic cathar for a card that is worth tutoring for like mirran crusader, banisher priest, mangara or palace jailer.

I think by now is pretty much clear that thalia heretic cathar is a card you either play in multiples or don't play at all.

Okay, sounds good to me. I play Elves myself primarily and I've heard this version of Thalia is supposed to be pretty solid against us and so I wanted to play against it a bit, but if the general consensus is that the new cards have kind of pushed it out I can live with that. Mirran Crusader CAN be good as well if you can get it down early enough and it probably is a lot better against some of the Shardless and Delvers of the world. Thanks everyone.

[Finn]

He is not saying that TGCReqiuem. He is saying you don't play it with the expectation of fetching it with Recruiter. And he is correct.

[iatee]

So I've been having a little bit of trouble with the new 4c Delver variant (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/518628#paper) with maindeck Snapcasters and TNNs.

The deck is secretly Blue Jund (more so than Shardless) with endless Bolts and Decays. Unlike stock Grixis Delver, it doesn't just lose g1 to any equipment or a Prelate on 1 and it has an actual late game with TNN/Snapcasters. I think deck can afford to play so many 'beat fair deck' cards like Decay/TNN because unfair decks have been pushed out of the format. If that's where long-term trends are going, it's kinda bad for DnT. Anyway, the match-up isn't unloseable, I find myself losing in 3 a lot, they still have a very greedy manabase that sometimes just folds on them. But having maindeck answers to TNN might become necessary if more people switch to that variant and similar "I choose you" decks.

Playing Serra Avengers helps, though again with their infinite removal they don't necessarily stick. An online Mystic Crusader would be close to being our own TNN in the matchup, but getting 7 cards in the card without fetches is hard.

Bomby late game flyers like Resto could also be good in the Jund style games, though a bit hard to resolve vs 4 Daze/4 Wasteland.

Splashing black for Orzhov Pontiff has always been an option, I know Bahra's tried a Kambal/Dark Confidant build with mixed results in some streams. Problem with Pontiff is it seems like such a dead card when it's not good.

[RobNC]

I'm upping my Council's Judgment count to 2 in the sideboard for next weekend's tournament, less for True Name Nemesis and more for Leovold who makes it very hard for our deck to do anything. Every single BUG deck in my meta is running at least 1 or 2, one even has 3 along with Snapcasters. Depending on how things keep going I may even need to add one to the mainboard.

My graveyard hate has also evolved; instead of 2 Rest in Peace I'm now running only 1 along with 2 Faerie Macabre, who is both tutorable with Recruiter but also instant speed and essentially uncounterable. It's our best shot against a turn 1 reanimation, helps with Punishing Fire, and in the case of Snapcaster decks can help with the recurring removal.

[Medea_]

Leovold is absolutely a problem card for our deck. I've found that it is grinding most of my actions (Port, Waste, equipment activations) to a halt. Sure, you can bounce it with Karakas, but that's often not a winning proposition.

[Curby]

I faced, and lost to, a variant of that deck with White instead of Red (STP instead of Bolt) in Denver. I'm out of practice but it seemed tricky for sure. I think I ended up using a sideboarded Path or Judgment to remove Leovold at one point.

[RobNC]

I'd rather get rid of it for good than Karakas, which just gives them the opportunity to cast it again and draw when targeted the next turn. I Plow it on sight if possible; the one card at the time is much better than the abundance of card draw they are threatening by leaving it on the board. Having multiple Paths in the sideboard also helps by increasing our chances of having removal as a quick answer, but Council's Judgment is a cleaner answer if you can cast it.

[redtwister]

RE: 4C Delver
I am playing this deck these days (in order to become a better player, not for a loss of love for DnT) and I have to say, it is extremely resilient and difficult for DnT to deal with. I am on the fence about Leovold, Emissary of Trest, not because it isn't fantastic, but because it really stresses the mana base.

[AsmodeusDM]

So I've been having a little bit of trouble with the new 4c Delver variant (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/518628#paper) with maindeck Snapcasters and TNNs.

Just wanted to add/echo in the problems lately with 4C delver moving towards TNN and main deck decays.

Some of these decks have even been trimming on FoW; certainly a bad sign for us!


Also wanted to add that after playing with 3 main deck THCs for a while now; and with chrom mox to power her out on T2.. I've found her to be neutral. She's just okay and as often as her Legend status is a bonus (for Karakas) it's a downside (multiple copies and opponent Karakas). I'm not sure what to replace her with; but I feel like disruptive elements are best. Perhaps go back to a maindeck Aven Mindcensor? Or a banisher priest as many have done.


I kinda miss my old Imperial list with 1x Pia and Kiran Naalar... now there was a card that felt like it could turn a game around. Multiple bodies (with flying), tutorable, karakas-able, human, and even gave the deck burn/reach!

[iatee]

Yeah Pia/Kiran is one way to beat Jund-y decks...just out Jund them.

[mykatdied]

I made the mistake recently of mis-identifying that 4c delver deck for grixis delver. Game 1 I basically saw Grixis Delver and game 2 those TNN plus Jitte were brutal and he had what he needed for the disruption that I was able to find.

[Bahra]

Have any of you played 24 lands yet? It's probably not a popular opinion but I think with the build I am running, 24 lands is definitely correct.

http://i.imgur.com/X5XUQLc.jpg


I'm running a lot of caverns and I had problems with land screw and missing white mana in a lot of my games, I added 1 plains and since then I've been super happy with the deck.

[Pilhas]

You don't miss extra Prelates?
Only 1 seems too low.

Number of lands seems right since you are a bit heavier on 3drops than most builds and post side you lean in 4s quite hard

[Bahra]

You don't miss extra Prelates?
Only 1 seems too low.

Number of lands seems right since you are a bit heavier on 3drops than most builds and post side you lean in 4s quite hard

1 Prelate is the perfect number. It's tutorable which means I have it when I want it through the Recruiter of the Guard, and most match ups I don't want just a 2/2. It's decent vs. Delver/ANT/Lands, OK against miracles but that's all, if it had first strike it would be a different story but in the end it's just a 2/2. Too fragile and really low board impact.

[Poron]

if you can defend it via MoR, it's backbreaking against both Miracle and Grixis

You just suck for StP and Vial.
The second is untouchable but if you want to go deep on the Prelate route just play Declaration in Stone..
I would give it a try

[NeckBird]

I have a 1/1 split of Prelate main/side in my 75. Multiples of Prelate is great in a few matchups like Miracles, but there are matchups where I just never want to see her like Eldrazi or Elves. If Recruiter weren't in the deck, you'd be crazy not to play multiples, but because she shines best in slower matchups anyway, you have time to find her via a natural draw or tutoring for her with Recruiter. I'd rather the deck have a beatdown angle to it so we can pressure the opponent rather than just die to a card with a CMC we didn't name.

[iatee]

Bahra, 'decent' vs Lands might be selling that card *just* a little short. It wins on the spot vs Lands or Grixis Delver. Having played against Miracles with it a ton by now, it's easily the card they're the most scared to see. I could see a 1/1 split with one in the board, but running fewer than 2 in my 75 seems crazy. 24 land is probably a good idea with such a high SB curve. I've done it recently with Ghost Quarter builds. Ghost Quarter comes close to being a white source with enough Flagstones...Also I think running 3 Surgical and 0 Faerie Macabre is just wrong - even if you strongly prefer Surgical, going to 2 Surgical 1 Macabre bumps your post-board GY interaction to 6 cards.

Yesterday night I ran a WB list similar to the one you were streaming with - Kambals, Bobs, etc. and went 3-1, beating UR Delver, Burn and UB Tezz, losing to a UR TNN/Punishing Fire/Dack Fayden deck that is pretty much built to crush DnT. Kambal is very busted and that card probably deserves to be played somewhere.

[Poron]

I am not an expert of DnT but I would never play less than 2+1. Or at least 1+2

[Curby]

24 land is probably a good idea with such a high SB curve.

I play an extra land as a 61st card, and it works fine. http://cur.by/.dtlist

If I get rid of THCs for cheaper options, I might drop down to 23/60 though.


Also I think running 3 Surgical and 0 Faerie Macabre is just wrong - even if you strongly prefer Surgical, going to 2 Surgical 1 Macabre bumps your post-board GY interaction to 6 cards.

My target for Faerie/Surgical was mostly BR Reanimator, and for that reason I went with Faerie. If they go off turn 1 on the play with a revealed Chancellor, your Surgical won't save you, but Faerie will. If they dump two reanimation targets, your Surgical won't save you, but Faerie will.

[Bahra]

Bahra, 'decent' vs Lands might be selling that card *just* a little short. It wins on the spot vs Lands or Grixis Delver. Having played against Miracles with it a ton by now, it's easily the card they're the most scared to see. I could see a 1/1 split with one in the board, but running fewer than 2 in my 75 seems crazy. 24 land is probably a good idea with such a high SB curve. I've done it recently with Ghost Quarter builds. Ghost Quarter comes close to being a white source with enough Flagstones...Also I think running 3 Surgical and 0 Faerie Macabre is just wrong - even if you strongly prefer Surgical, going to 2 Surgical 1 Macabre bumps your post-board GY interaction to 6 cards.

Yesterday night I ran a WB list similar to the one you were streaming with - Kambals, Bobs, etc. and went 3-1, beating UR Delver, Burn and UB Tezz, losing to a UR TNN/Punishing Fire/Dack Fayden deck that is pretty much built to crush DnT. Kambal is very busted and that card probably deserves to be played somewhere.

Yea I added 1 Faerie Macabre now, it makes sense what you said.

I don't think Prelate needs to be in the sideboard at all. I have 3 Recruiter of the Guard, why do I need more Prelates? It's super good vs. Lands yes, and that's one of the main reason I play it, but it's terrible in a lot of match ups too, and only does something when you're already ahead.

[iatee]

Having early and natural Prelates vs Delver decks before they have time to build a board / spend their 1s is big, and Recruitering can be a bit slow.

Vs Miracles there's both benefit to having multiples in play (1+6) and not having to burn your Recruiter engine - as soon as you pick something that isn't Recruiter/Flickerwisp vs Miracles you're giving up the infinite creatures train. Having a natural Prelate early on 1 vs Miracles allows you to jam them before they can get much going - later in the game, while still very strong, they'll have more flexibility to get it off the board with the number you didn't choose.

Vs Lands, where it actually is best, 1 is probably fine, since waiting a turn doesn't affect the game much.

It ultimately is a meta-call, obviously it's mediocre-to-bad vs creature heavy decks. But when it's good, resolving it on t3 just wins the game, and that's a very high upside. Kinda plays like Magus of the Moon, and two ended up being the right number for that card.

[Medea_]

I really like having two Prelates in the main, though there is something to be said about having too many non-threat creatures. A few months ago, it wasn't uncommon for decks to play around 7 finishers. Post-Recruiter/Prelate, that number tends to be closer to three.

[Curby]

A few months ago, it wasn't uncommon for decks to play around 7 finishers. Post-Recruiter/Prelate, that number tends to be closer to three.

Can we say we were at 12 counting Batterskull and Flickerwisp? Going from 12 to 8 sounds a lot less drastic than 7 to 3. I'm not advocating papering over what might be a real problem with durdly builds, but at the same time we shouldn't ignore parts of our fighting force. Doing so could lead us into thinking our army is smaller than it really is.

If Batterskull and Flickerwisp don't count (needs SFM, 1 toughness is too weak), then yeah we're back at 7 to 3.

[Medea_]

What I really meant by that was dedicated beater cards (Mirran Crusader, Avenger, Brimaz).

[AsmodeusDM]

I will admit that I've cut down on beater cards but I feel that with recruiter I don't need them as much.

Between our standard hate + prelate I feel like I can:

#1 lock the game down so tightly (to the point where many opponents are just draw-go) that a simple array of 2/2s and 2/1s can get the job done

#2 equipment + wisps has become more important at delivering beat downs

#3 I feel like once I do have the game locked down .. I can just go recruiter for one of the limited beaters and take care of the game that way.

The priority has become to lock down the game first; and then once control is established; begin the inevitable beatdowns while I port/waste and thalia/prelate/revoker lock them into nothing.

[ChemicalBurns]

Brief 4-0 weekly report with list I posted before, but tried:

Main:
-1 Crusader
+1 Banisher Priest

SB:
-1 Containment Priest
-1 Mangara
+1 Mirran Crusader
+1 Palace Jailer

I've been interested in trying Priest for awhile, especially with Enevoldsen touting it almost always in his lists (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/526770#online), and it did shine in one of the matchups. Overall it was fine.

Round 1: vs. Miracles
Game 1: I naturally draw both my Prelates, set them to 1 and 6 and then kill him with whatever is on board.

-1 Umezawa's Jitte
-1 Stoneforge Mystic
-4 Swords to Plowshares
-1 Banisher Priest
+1 Palace Jailer
+1 Pithing Needle
+2 Council's Judgment
+2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
+1 Mirran Crusader

Game 2: He has a slow start and is searching for a Top, while I have Thalia protected by Karakas annoying him. Eventually I Gideon him and win.

Round 2: vs. Infect
Game 1: I curve out with Plows into a Vial in SFM which gets a Jitte and gets the job done. Mana denial on Inkmoth too.

I need help with the SBing for this matchup. I've heard people speak of cutting Thalia so removal is easier to cast, which I'm not sure I can agree on (but I do see the benefits).

+2 Path to Exile
+1 Pithing Needle
+2 Ethersworn Canonist
-1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
-2 Phyrexian Revoker
-1 Sanctum Prelate
-1 Flickerwisp

Reasoning: cut three drops since they can be durdly. Prelate isn't that amazing when they have such a diversity of removal and we can end up turning off our own removal spells. Revoker, although it hits Hierarch, generally is unimpressive as mana denial is reserved for Inkmoths rather than actually trying to mana screw them.

Game 2: On my turn two I have a Vial ticking up, Port and Plains, while he as Hierarch, Inkmoth, Forest. I jam Revoker and name Hierarch (although I could've Ported) since, in my mind, it achieves similar to Port in that it denies a single mana while still giving me a clock, and he cannot Daze it off his Forest (I have a SFM to bring in once my Vial ticks up to 2 too). I die to land, Invig + Berserk, ugh. I guess Porting Inkmoth would've been safer overall.

Game 3: I play Mom > Thalia and only draw Wastelands, Ports and Plow/Path for the rest of the game, killing all his Infecters with these. And this locks up the game pretty easy. Thalia certainly annoyed me a little in casting my removal, but it wasn't too much of a pain and frustrated him much more.

Round 3: vs. Eldrazi
Game 1: Punt the game by getting my t2 SFM Dismembered due to trading my Mom for a Mimic.

-4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
-2 Sanctum Prelate
-4 Mother of Runes
+2 Path to Exile
+2 Council's Judgment
+1 Palace Jailer
+2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
+1 Leonin Relic-Warder
+1 Mirran Crusader
+1 Containment Priest

Thalia is an interesting one to cut (first strike is quite reasonable), but she does minimal and makes my removal hard to cast. Priest, although shutting off my Vial, seems to work well as a pseudo-removal spell due to its Ambush Viper mode. It could just be a Prelate to tutor for if needed though, I guess, though Prelate herself is pretty miserable as naming two for their Jitte/Contortion/Wail is still kind of narrow.

Game 2:
Death & Taxes does what Death & Taxes does. Turn one Vial, into denying mana into SFM for Batterskull does great work, and a Banisher Priest takes care of a Seer. I end up with double Wisp in hand to seal up the game, resetting my BSkull and flickering away a blocker after he taps out for an Endbringer in the final turn.

Game 3: I squeak this one out! He turn one Eyes and poops out a Mimic and two 2/2 Endless Ones, so I'm under pressure. I have no turn one play, and my SFM gets Dismembered. Luckily, all my opponent has is a Cavern to follow up with and a Matter Reshaper. I cast a Flickerwisp, killing an Endless One and trading with the Mimic, and then curve into Gideon and trade off again. I'm at a scant amount of life (2) and annoyingly have a Horizon Canopy. Luckily I have a Banisher Priest to rid the Reshaper and clear the board, letting Gideon clean up the rest. My opponent shows me a hand with Seer and other four mana plus goodies that were uncastable. Eldrazi problems, I suppose.

Round 4: vs. Miracles
Game 1: Usual broken rubbish D&T has now. Double Prelate seals it all up - I never attack with them and just bring the beats with Thalia and a motley crew.

-1 Umezawa's Jitte
-1 Stoneforge Mystic
-4 Swords to Plowshares
-1 Banisher Priest
+1 Palace Jailer
+1 Pithing Needle
+2 Council's Judgment
+2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
+1 Mirran Crusader

Game 2: This was the funnest game of the day, mainly because I tried some weird stuff. My opponent struggles through the first wave of idiots (including removing Prelate backed up with Mom via Sulfur Elemental + Plow), but I'm able to Recruiter for a Jailer and eat his Sulfur - and then continue to draw seven or so cards in the next few turns, really putting my opponent on the back foot. They have a Jace going for a few turns but I pester it with some Revokers and friends. Some stuff eventually gets Terminused and a late Vial is bait for a Wear // Tear, allowing me to safely get a SoFI in play. My opponent brings a Mentor, I have Council's Judgment. My opponent then has Staticaster, but I Recruiter for Jailer again and eat it, eqiupping Sword to my Jailer. I eventually hit Jace to dead. I also have a Prelate on six, my opponent has another Sulfur that he attacks with. I derp and let him hit me, getting back his Staticaster to kill my Prelate and make him the Monarch. Bad plays, learn to read your cards. So now he starts cards flowing. He's forced to Terminus my Sword equipped Jailer though, and then I flood the board again. He struggles to clear it but can't get there, with a Karakas backed Thalia taking back Monarchy and eventually leading me to a winning game. Winning through 4 Terminus, 2 Sulfur Elemental, 1 Staticaster, multiple Plows and Snap Plows and Snap Wears is a sweet time indeed.

Palace Jailer truly impressed me. If I didn't make the poor blocking choice with Prelate I think I more easily would've won. The card warped the dimensions of the match completely, and was perfect as a card that was uncounterable (via Cavern), grindy removal for problematic creatures. It lets you happily cut Plows and still have a bevvy of flexible removal post-board. I'm sure I'm a bit biased because he went well, and I know some people have had the "I had Jailer, then he Cliqued me EOT and drew a billion cards" problem. But seeing my opponent's zero cards in hand to my six thanks to Jailer was glorious.

Anyway, primarily interested in:
- Infect SBing
- Thoughts on Jailer
- Thoughts on Banisher Priest (she was great vs. Eldrazi, just okay otherwise)

Also, concerning 4c Delver that people have been worried about, I agree that turn 2 TNN is hella scary - I had to face this last week in the semis of my small tourney against Stevestamopz. If we can't assemble some form of lifegain, have Vial to flood the board and race it, or have CJ on schedule the game generally falls out of reach. I've long been a proponent of two CJ side (and I think this is standard now anyway) but I know some people have looked at shaving to 1. I feel this is less warranted now with both 4c Delver and the Bant DeathBlade decks being so popular, and their primarily gameplan against us being to dork out TNN ASAP. Also, Serra Avenger has always been our answer to racing TNN, and having her can certainly help swing races or be a warm body to Jitte up.

EDIT: Also, concerning Prelate, agreeing with iatee here (though it may just be my meta) that 2 Prelates feels perfect. I find that naturally casting one (as seen in the report above) and then tutoring for the last has been the one-two punch to lock out many decks entirely - do note that the first Prelate generally gives you time to find the second as it locks out the opponent's ability to find answers. I don't think there is any space for additional though due to how lacklustre she is in other MUs, and I suppose a 1/1 split main SB is pretty reasonable to hedge for more Eldrazi/D&T heavy metas. Her body is also pretty terrible and necessitates having some kind of a pure beatsticks in our lists. A card that can singlehandedly win matchups itself should not be a mere one-of though, I feel.

[iatee]

Thalia is stronger than C Priest vs Eldrazi. 2/1 first strike body is better than 2/2 flash, and the Thalia + Karakas wall can hold back a big dude. Thalia wears equipment well too. Don't think she's fantastic, would never keep 4 in, but C Priest really doesn't do enough.

Vs Infect, I think Pithing Needle isn't great - it stops their threat that we naturally have a million ways to stop. I'd prefer Council's Judgment, as slow as it is, super slow removal is still removal and sometimes you lose to a mid-game Blighted Agent.

Banisher Priest is also good vs Infect, DnT and big creature combo decks - basically every deck that plays creatures but doesn't play a lot of removal. Really shines vs Eldrazi because it turns their two-for-one bombs (Smasher/TKS) into a two-for-one in your favor.

[ChemicalBurns]

Thalia is stronger than C Priest vs Eldrazi. 2/1 first strike body is better than 2/2 flash, and the Thalia + Karakas wall can hold back a big dude. Thalia wears equipment well too. Don't think she's fantastic, would never keep 4 in, but C Priest really doesn't do enough.

Vs Infect, I think Pithing Needle isn't great - it stops their threat that we naturally have a million ways to stop. I'd prefer Council's Judgment, as slow as it is, super slow removal is still removal and sometimes you lose to a mid-game Blighted Agent.

Banisher Priest is also good vs Infect, DnT and big creature combo decks - basically every deck that plays creatures but doesn't play a lot of removal. Really shines vs Eldrazi because it turns their two-for-one bombs (Smasher/TKS) into a two-for-one in your favor.

I think that's fair, and keeping in a singleton Thalia is probably better than Priest. I was happy to experiment with the choice though nonetheless.

I also can get behind CJ due to many having Library which can be very threatening for us, so its removal with upside if we can cast it, especially since it gets around Vines. It can be a bit slow, but the matchup can get grindy at times indeed - and Blighted Agent is the scariest card for us. I'll give this a spin next time I play the MU. How do we feel about Prelate in this MU? Since we'll be naming 3 a lot for Invigorate, CJ gets a bit awkward here too.

I guess my only issue is that Banisher Priest leaves you prone to blowouts from Eldrazi and D&T, as although they have little removal pre-board, post-side this is upped a bit. I got a Priest Dismembered mid-combat which would've left me in a hairy situation if I did not have Wisp to bail me out. Priest also didn't feel really like a two-for-one (other than when exiling Smasher or Reshaper), as her mediocre body tends to just sit there and be uninvolved with combat and not really worth a card. I can see the upside of her and was very happy with her against Eldrazi certainly, but she felt pretty replaceable. I don't know whether I want to dedicate two slots to cards with similar-ish functions (Banisher Priest & Jailer).

[iatee]

Priest is so much stronger instant speed out of Vial, and you can't do that with Jailer without burning the Vial. Jailer isn't as immediately soft to Dismember, though (as with basically any matchup really...) if Eldrazi becomes the monarch, you probably only have a turn or two before you can't come back from the card disadvantage.

Eldrazi would always rather have their creatures tapped sideways, so if you can't attack with a Priest because they have blockers, you're still getting something out of the body. The Dismember blowout potential is real though, for sure. Less scared of a StP blowout from DnT, most of the time Priest is going to be some sort of tempo blowout when you play it originally (e.g. Vial it in response to an equip), so even if they get their own little mini-blowout with a StP, it's not comparable to 'attack into an empty board, no wait, there's a Reality Smasher'.

[ChemicalBurns]

Priest is so much stronger instant speed out of Vial, and you can't do that with Jailer without burning the Vial. Jailer isn't as immediately soft to Dismember, though (as with basically any matchup really...) if Eldrazi becomes the monarch, you probably only have a turn or two before you can't come back from the card disadvantage.

Eldrazi would always rather have their creatures tapped sideways, so if you can't attack with a Priest because they have blockers, you're still getting something out of the body. The Dismember blowout potential is real though, for sure. Less scared of a StP blowout from DnT, most of the time Priest is going to be some sort of tempo blowout when you play it originally (e.g. Vial it in response to an equip), so even if they get their own little mini-blowout with a StP, it's not comparable to 'attack into an empty board, no wait, there's a Reality Smasher'.

Oh I definitely am not comparing Jailer and Priest for the Eldrazi matchup - as I said, they have "similar-ish" functions in some matchups, but certainly there Priest is much better. I bring Jailer in, but he is nowhere near as efficient as Priest, definitely. He's just going to get TKSed out of your hand the majority of the time, and we'll be under significant pressure so Monarch isn't guaranteed. I'm more thinking about the 75 holistically, and whether Priest is better than a card such as Crusader, who is less dead in other matchups (I found Priest really terrible as a draw against combo and Miracles...) and in the Eldrazi matchup Crusader at least blocks and attacks relatively well. Probably a meta consideration anyway, as Eldrazi is not very prominent here.

I also really like your point about the D&T mirror which I've always felt is all about tempoing out your opponent with a variety of tricks. I agree that Banisher Priest is good there for sure, but tbh a lot of random cards are good in the matchup, since we cut so many terrible cards from our main. I at least have Relic-Warder to cover a similar slot I suppose, while also giving us some Disenchant utility, though they're not really too comparable.

[Bahra]

ChemicalBurns are you really confident in your sideboarding against miracles? I think Stoneforge is 100% better than Mirran Crusader so I'm not sure why you're boarding it out. I've never boarded out Stoneforge because having equipment on boards puts so much pressure on them (makes every 1/1 a huge threat).



I just went 10-0 in MTGO League with the list I posted +1 Faerie Macabre -1 Surgical Extraction.

Match ups:

2-1 Enchantress
2-1 Grixis Delver
2-1 Death and Taxes
2-0 Shardless BUG
2-0 4c Delver
2-0 Aluren
2-0 BUG Delver
2-0 Eldrazi
2-0 Eldrazi
2-0 Miracles

Really happy with the deck, I can't say if 24 lands made the difference, but it sure felt like it did. I can't wait till Palace Jailer is on MTGO, it seems to be way better than Mangara and I was rarely really happy with Mangara.

[MasterHerC]

Nice run.

Dodging Elves & Lands like a Boss.

I currently try out 24 lands, too.
It actually feels good, going with triple Cavern by now, maybe cutting one for a Mishra's Factory.

Already excited how Palace Jailer will do for You.
I am still collecting opinions and experiences with it (currently running 1 in my SB).

[iatee]

Dodging Lands? I would rather play Lands with Bahra's list than literally any of the decks he played. He has Surgicals, Cataclysms, Prelate in a matchup that wasn't even unfavored without those haymakers.

I agree on SfM, I never board any out vs Miracles, though I also like Mirran Crusader. In both cases you're presenting a real clock, which is what Miracles doesn't want to see. Crusader + equipment will almost always win with one hit.

I'd rather take out a Flickerwisp or a Mom. Flickerwisp is much worse with Vial offline, which happens often enough post-board vs Miracles. Mom is in a weird 'sometimes great, sometimes pure card disadvantage' spot. She's a little more powerful if you have more copies of Prelate to protect, though.

[Medea_]

@Bahra
Good stuff! It's nice to see solid finishes while I'm collecting data for the GP in January.

@ChemicalBurns

I think Stoneforge is one of the best cards in the Miracles matchup. Getting a piece of equipment on board means every threat thereafter is a must-answer card. I would never trim one. I also board Batterskull out over Jitte. Jitte serves as removal for Mentor, Containment Priest, and other annoying stuff like Sulfur Elemental that might come in. Batterskull lines up poorly against Jace, so I'm not a huge fan.

I'm also wary of cutting all the StP vs Miracles. When I lose, it's often to an unchecked Mentor start.

@Iatee

I disagree on the Needle front. I love Needle vs Infect. Though Inkmoth can be handled with our lands, we can't afford to keep Port up every turn to stop it unless we also have Vial. Playing the Inkmoth lets us ignore ~33% of their threat base for a single mana. That's a great investment.

CJ is awkward in the Infect matchup, but it's probably fine. I bring it in about half the time; it really depends on where my sideboard is at for that given week.

[iatee]

Batterskull is great against Miracles and I don't think 'lines up poorly vs Jace' is a good argument. A resolved Jace is good in most situations vs us. When we're short on mana and don't have a Vial, there are many cases where there would be little difference between Jace killing a creature or bouncing one - the issue with an early resolved Jace is tempo, not card advantage.

Big picture, Bskull turns one card into two bodies, which is exactly the form of card advantage you want vs Miracles, because it forces their hand on Terminus. It's a Blade Splicer and I think nobody would side out Blade Splicer vs Miracles, even though the Golem token is also soft to Jace. Skull provides late-late game inevitability and a dead Skull that gets Flickerwisp'd gives you 7 power out of nowhere.

Jitte is pretty solid against Mentor, but little else. Cleans up a Snapcaster or a random sideboard card once in a while, but it doesn't provide consistent value, in some games the minus ability will have literally 0 targets. It requires a lot of time and resources to turn it into something that actually does a point of damage to the opponent and the lifegain ability is very rarely relevant.

I like keeping StPs against Mentor builds, but side out more and more of them lately as I think most people are drifting away from Mentor, or at least from the 4 Mentor builds. I think you kinda have to try to look for signs for what they're playing. Prelate also is very effective vs Mentor, as Prelate on 1 turns Mentor into a Grey Ogre and forces a Terminus. So the more Prelates you play, the less you need to worry about Mentor.

On Infect - I don't find myself losing to Inkmoth, I find myself losing to fast combo kills and to Agent. I don't think good Infect players keep hands g2/3 that are going to be particularly dependent on Inkmoth because they know that DnT is pretty well set up to stop the card. Inkmoth rarely presents a fast combo kill on its own because attacking with it sucks up 2 mana, so by the time they have them active you should have Wastes/Ports at the ready and possibly even a Flickerwisp somewhere, possibly more flyers if you play them. On the subject of Needle effects, I actually don't mind keeping Revokers in. Infect players are generally happy to open with t1 Hierarch because they know their mana will be under pressure. And unlike Thalia, Revoker's mana denial only goes in one direction.

[ChemicalBurns]

On Miracles:

Concerning cutting Stoneforge, I fully understand its potency in the matchup - getting SoFI is game-breaking. However, drawing excessive Stoneforges makes the one after the second useless, since I've always been cutting Jitte and have never found it that useful in the matchup. As iatee has said, once you connect with it, it still doesn't provide that much value. Even then, the second Stoneforge just gets a BSkull, which in my mind is far from the potency of SoFI (but still reasonable). Basically, you want to resolve one Stoneforge, a second one is gravy and a third one is useless - which signals wanting it as a three-of, to me. Post-board where your opponent is trimming counterspells also makes the first one more likely to resolve too. I guess just having as few dead cards in a long, drawn-out game is what I'm trying to aim for, though I still feel we have to keep 4 Thalia due to how generally disruptive she is, especially backed up by Karakas. Crusader may be less potent than the fourth Stoneforge though, that is true.

Before I used to trim Mom in this matchup too, but the potency of Mom and Prelate on six is just too powerful to pass up, as the opponent is put into scrambling for their SB cards just like two Prelates, one on 6 and one on 1, respectively, does. I'll admit she can be mediocre as late-game plays though.

Agree on keeping perhaps two Plows in against 4 Mentor builds, but the two Mentor builds I played against I feel it's less necessary, despite the super man-plan they bring in. I find just my creatures in combat are very easily able to overwhelm opposing Mentors and force them into an awkward Terminus - as iatee said, especially with Prelate making Mentor look very sub-par. Having access to sort-of five pieces of incredibly flexible removal in two CJ and the two Recruiters + Jailer also served me well, and seems like a solid plan. Since we are the aggressor in this matchup (other than their tempo-esque Mentor draws), I feel reactive spells like Plow aren't too useful in broad scenarios.

Nonetheless, very interesting to hear everyone's point of view on this common matchup. I'm very happy to be wrong and will experiment with what has been proposed such as the fourth Stoneforge and keeping in the Jitte as Medea has been doing, and I'll see how I feel in the weeks ahead.

[Bahra]

On Miracles:

Concerning cutting Stoneforge, I fully understand its potency in the matchup - getting SoFI is game-breaking. However, drawing excessive Stoneforges makes the one after the second useless, since I've always been cutting Jitte and have never found it that useful in the matchup. As iatee has said, once you connect with it, it still doesn't provide that much value. Even then, the second Stoneforge just gets a BSkull, which in my mind is far from the potency of SoFI (but still reasonable). Basically, you want to resolve one Stoneforge, a second one is gravy and a third one is useless - which signals wanting it as a three-of, to me.

Did you look at the math or how does this signal wanting stoneforge as a three-of?

It's 40% to be in your opener as a 4 of, it's 31.5% to be in your opener as a 3 of.

With 4 copies you have to get 23 cards deep before you have a ~50% chance of having drawn 2 Stoneforge Mystics in a given game (not counting getting equipments out of your deck), that's a lot of draws. To draw 3 copies it's still only 30% chance when you're 30 cards down.

A card that makes our entire deck so good against miracles, is not worth cutting for such minuscule chances of drawing "too many" copies.

[Curby]

So it's not just what you're cutting, but what you're cutting FOR, and what other options would be better. For those who don't want to cut SFM, what would you take out instead?

[redtwister]

The funny thing about the new cards, it looks like Recruiter of the Guard ends up being the best card. Sanctum Prelate has of course made a place for itself, but, like Bahra, I find myself being satisfied with one. I still like having some Serra Avenger alongside Mirran Crusader, but Mangara of Corondor is even better thanks to Recruiter.

Despite how awesome the card is, Palace Jailer shows that cmc 4 is still tough in Legacy if you can't cheat things into play.

[Poron]

the problem with Avenger is that it still does to Bolt, Decay and StP.

Which is 100% of the removal in this format apart from Massacre and Pyroclasm/K.Return

Overall it dies to every playes attacking creature like Delver, Goyf, Angler, Mentor/Mentor tokens.

I would else play Vryn Wingmare.
Double Thalia, flies, recruitable.. definitly to be tried there

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Which would you guys rather have, a single Vryn Wingmare main or an Aven Mindcensor?

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[gh0st_b1rd]

Hi. First time poster here. I wanted to chime in on my thoughts on this ongoing conversation about the general configuration of this deck.

So when the new Conspiracy 2 cards were spoiled I immediately jumped at the chance to play Bahra's old RW Taxes deck as that was the deck I wanted to mainly play.

My treatment for DnT prior had been Enevoldson's build which can be described as a strong preference for turn 2 two drop creatures (he was running 13 at the time), and boarding in a single Relic of Progenitus as a way to freeroll drawing into silver bullet card post-board.

Not many similarities but were places for a (now) newbie getting back into Legacy to start.


So here are my thoughts as to why I have picked Red on which ended up suiting my needs for my meta pretty well.

My main goal is to beat Lands, Sneak and Show, 12 Post, Miracles, Omni-Tell, TES, Elves and the mirror.

Reasons to run Magus of the Moon would be to beat Shardless BUG post-board, have any sort of game vs Infect, lock out Lands completely (ever had anybody look for Barbarian Ring with Gamble or Intuition vs you?), shutdown Gaea's Cradles completely.

My real reasons for the red splash were for Pia and Kiran Nalaar and Sudden Demises after board. Nothing new but it was a direction I had personally wanted to explore when a manabase friendlier functional reprint of Imperial Recruiter was released.

Pia and Kiran Nalaar. I have strong positive opinions of this card. Sometimes when you build your deck to stop your opponent from being to play Magic with these new cards you begin to realize that your new cards are very adaquate for doing just that but are still pretty loose to have when fighting on the dude bash step. When you devote so many resources to just protecting your creatures and your possibility to win the game, sometimes you fall short because you either aren't cementing the game or your opponent is nursing an advantage. Part of the remedy to these problems involve resolving equipment and creatures. Both of those things involve a lot of investment and probably requires that you make the decision to deal with the competing decisions of either equiping a creature or playing a new creature. Fortunately Aether Vial is in our deck so these decisions rarely come up but the hardest parts of the game for us usually does not involve an active Aether Vial. The answer to why I chose Pia and Kiran is obvious: I know for a fact that the floor and ceiling of this card is very high. I have stabilized it during topdeck wars in fair match ups and utilized many factors involving the features of this card in conjunction with my current board states to turn the corner or cemented an advantage at a low cost. Ever tap out for the card with a Cavern in play vs a Delver deck? Anything they do against you extracts a concession on their part or they lose. I have even turned the corner with this card vs a turn 3 EtW for 14 Goblins from TES while on the draw (but to be fair an active Vial helped). Also P&K is a very scary threat for your opponents to deal with post board.

As for running Sanctum Prelate, I believe two copies of this card is only correct if you cut a Mother of Runes. I have always treated my 2nd Prelate as a Mother of Runes with haste. But the dude bash step is still of a problem but the plan is to stop your opponent from furthering their board state while you look for a way to fix your inability yours at the moment, whether it be resolving a piece of equipment or playing another creature.

And finally the 24th land. I had toyed with that idea for quite a long time actually but it appears that my games post board had been awkward when I had 3 Caverns of 23 lands. Not being able to cast Council's Judgment and Gideons on time has costed me games before. My greedy proposal for this problem if you're bent on running 3 caverns is to put an extra white source in the sideboard and move any maindeckable sideboard card to the maindeck (leaning towards Canonist). I cut the 3rd Cavern from my deck because of this and havent looked back because 2 Caverns had been completely sufficient and that my main problems are non-counter based decks. That and I feel no anxiety in terms of tempo vs these types of decks with Pia and Kia in my deck but am open to the idea of cutting my 3rd Plains for a Cavern of Souls and putting a Horizon Canopy in my SB.

Here is my list for reference, which looks a lot like Sean Brown's deck, but I can only assume two reasonable individuals can come up with the same ideas.

4 wasteland
4 rishadan port
2 cavern of souls
3 karakas
3 windswept heath
2 flooded strand
2 plateau
3 plains

3 mother of runes
4 stoneforge mystic
4 thalia, guardian of thraben
4 phyrexian revoker
3 recruiter of the guard
3 flickerwisp
2 sanctum prelate
1 mirran crusader
1 magus of the moon
1 pia and kiran nalaar

1 batterskull
1 umezawa's jitte
1 sword of fire and ice
4 swords to plowshares
4 aether vial

1 magus of the moon
1 manic vandal
2 ethersworn canonist
2 containment priest
2 sudden demise
1 relic of progenitus
1 rest in peace
1 faerie macabre
1 path to exile
2 council's judgment
1 gideon, ally of zendikar


So how I play this deck is that it is a Monowhite DnT first with a freeroll for Magus of the Moon and Pia and Kiran Nalaar. You should be fetching Plains early if it will be your only White source and drawing the red cards have never really hurt me preboard. I kept Stoneforge and the entire equipment package in in order to tell my opponent to play kill on sight magic so that I can maintain tempo or score a free win. I am reluctant to switch out my 4th Revoker for Spirit of the Labyrinth because I believe Sneak and Show and Storm is the litmus test of viability in Legacy. I would consider cutting a Prelate for a Spirit but that is it.

The sideboard is the second reason why I am enthusiastic about splashing Red. Manic Vandal has been fantastic vs the mirror, Shardless BUG (tell Jittes, Strix and Null Rods to take a hike), and a slew of other card I would expect to see after board. Sudden Demise has been ok. I have recently started boarding Sudden Demise over Rest in Peace as a way to maintain parity vs Shardless aiming for a two for one for a mix of Strixes, Shardless Agents and DRSs while your spot removal is mainly aimed at Goyfs. The 2nd Magus of the Moon is for whatever MUs Magus is obviously good in. The rest should be standard but entirely possible that I should be running 2 surgical extractions over the lone RIP and Relic.

Also, Bahra, when are you going to dabble with the red splash again? I need somebody to netdeck.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I'm just not sure if you meant to exclude StP. Not on board with that idea...

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[gh0st_b1rd]

Sorry. Definitely did not mean to exclude such a fine card.

[Bahra]

Also, Bahra, when are you going to dabble with the red splash again? I need somebody to netdeck.

Not sure, I'm intrigued by the fact that you are enthusiastic about the red deck still, I had shelved it and believed that it was an outdated deck. I could be wrong, but if elves show up in stronger numbers on MTGO I will explore it again, but right now I am winning a pretty ridiculous amount of my games with my mono white build, and I am very happy with it.

So it will take a meta shift or maybe I'll just explore it for fun when I've moved (getting the key for the new apartment any day now, and then I will be able to stream even more).

I also wanted to say that I believe your thoughts about the second prelate (that it replaces Mother of Runes) makes a lot of sense.

[Stevestamopz]

I miss Imperial Taxes too but the truth is that mono-white is just better now. Prelate is usually marginally to a lot better than Magus as a prison card, and playing such a comparatively fragile mana-base is just not worth it. The deck was fun as fuck, it was a pleasure working on it with Iatee and Bahra back in the day but mono-white is just better sadly. My interest in DnT has declined rapidly since Recruiter/Prelate invalidated Imperial which is a shame but that's life.

Even the Elves matchup has been made easier by Prelate. Mom -> Ethersworn -> Prelate on 4 is almost certainly going to end in a win for you. It's basically the same shit we tried to do with Demise and Moon but without the awkward manabase.

R.I.P Imperial (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mx7sttBlfaM)

[Secretly.A.Bee]

That explanation fits for myself as well. I play 3 mom/2 Prelate main.

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[Bahra]

I miss Imperial Taxes too but the truth is that mono-white is just better now. Prelate is usually marginally to a lot better than Magus as a prison card, and playing such a comparatively fragile mana-base is just not worth it. The deck was fun as fuck, it was a pleasure working on it with Iatee and Bahra back in the day but mono-white is just better sadly. My interest in DnT has declined rapidly since Recruiter/Prelate invalidated Imperial which is a shame but that's life.

Even the Elves matchup has been made easier by Prelate. Mom -> Ethersworn -> Prelate on 4 is almost certainly going to end in a win for you. It's basically the same shit we tried to do with Demise and Moon but without the awkward manabase.

R.I.P Imperial (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mx7sttBlfaM)

Well that is just too sad, I am reviving Imperial Taxes on my stream right now. I just lost another chance at 5-0 because of Elves, so now it's time! :laugh:

[iatee]

gh0st_b1rd, I agree that WR is still worth considering. It may have it lost its biggest competitive advantage (the Recruiters) b ut it still has stronger mana denial for 3/4c Midrangey decks with Magus and a better haymaker in Pia/Kiran. Palace Jailer is probably the most comparable thing Mono-W has at the moment.

On your SB - I think 2 Containment Priest isn't necessary with 3 Recruiters. Cunning Sparkmage helps shore up the Elves matchup from another direction and also is super bomby vs Infect/Dnt. I definitely wouldn't go without one.

Manic Vandal feels like a better fit in the deck than Relic Warder as a human and the shatter effect is more reliable. Yesterday I got my Relic Warder Eldrazi Displacered by my opponent, which is a pretty interesting interaction that didn't end up working well for me (exiled artifact from Relic Warder not yet in play to be targeted by the new copy of the Relic Warder.) And a non-human that you want to cast turn 2 for WW is tough, even for mono-W's mana.

Still, there are 2 reasons I stopped playing Manic Vandal:

a. It's a 3 drop, which means it isn't as fast as killing Vials/Chalices/Jittes before they get value from it.
b. More importantly, it's not a may ability. We can't just Vial it in as a bear if our opponent hasn't played anything relevant, because we have to Vandal our own Vial. In some cases the opponent can respond with things like Flicker their only artifact, kill their own Strix, bounce their Batterskull, and we get pretty wrecked. Relic Warder also eats enchantments, which is most relevant vs Dread of Night, but comes up once in a while elsewhere (Enchantress, Back to Basics, Moat.)

[Aten]

What do you guys think the representation of BR reanimator will be at the GP level? I'm undecided on whether or not I want to squeeze 2 Faerie Macabres in my sideboard for Louisville or not... Also, is the card good enough to warrant bringing in for other matchups (mainly Lands, but potentially Storm)?

The rest of my SB:
2x Gideon AOZ
2x Council's Judgment
2x Path to Exile
1x Pithing Needle
1x Cataclysm
2x RIP
1x Containment Priest
2x Ethersworn Canonist
[2x Macabre / 1x SOWAP 1x Pithing Needle]

[iatee]

You absolutely bring it in for Lands and any other Punishing Fire deck + ANT but not TES.

[tarmogoat]

I played yesterday a 5 round legacy tournament.
R1: D&T (1-2). I won game one, but he plays Manriki Gusari in the board and I don't, gg.
R2: UWx Stoneblade (2-1). G1 I outgrind a TNN equipped with a Jitte and it feels like it should count for 2 games. G2 I lose to T2 TNN + great follow ups and removal. G3 I Karakas + Mom, he plays a Sea + DRS. I wasteland the Sea + Stp the shaman. He plays a wasteland and breaks my karakas hoping to put us both in topdeck mode. I have 2 plains and stabilize from there, opp concedes a couple turns later.
R3: Big Red (2-0). G1 he keeps a clunky hand and goes T1 Trinisphere but no follow up for a couple turns, I play a Vial on T3, then Thalia, then Prelate, then GG. G2 He mulls to oblivion.
R4: UB Reanimator: G1 I thalia + Karakas. G2 he grave titans me. G3 I lose my board to Elesh Norn, so I rebuild my hand while I'm being beten to death and in the last beat I flickerwisp Norn, then with the trigger on the stack I stick a Containment Priest and win from there.
R5: ID with Aluren.
T8: Aluren (2-0). G1 I play a vial and follow up with swords on DRS + wasteland, then proceed to port and then double port while beating. G2: Similar to game 1 (kill shaman, double port + vial), although with hate cards in hand in case the lock is broken, butt opp can't cast spells most of the game and concedes.
T4: UB Reanimator (2-1). Same opp from R4. I lose G1 to Grave Titan, then Win G2 off the top hitting a flickerwisp clearing Pithing Needle (naming Karakas), then clear Iona and land a RiP. G3 I don't quite remember but it was quite an awesome win too, as always, involving flickerwisp.
T2: Mentor Miracles (1-2). I win G1 absurdely over committing to the board, I land a Prelate on 1 on T3 and rode it to victory alongside 2 revokers and a SFM. G2 I get wrecked by a lot of removal and counterbalance top lock into double Sulfur Elemental. G3 it was grindy and I'm forced to cataclysm, then go top deck mode. We both top deck lands but I don't find any relevant pressure.

The list:

4x Aether Vial
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Mother of Runes

4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Serra Avenger
1x Umezawa's Jitte

3x Flickerwisp
2x Sanctum Prelate
2x Recruiter of the Guard
2x Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1x Mirran Crusader
1x Sword of Fire and Ice

1x Batterskull

4x Wasteland
4x Rishadan Port
3x Cavern of Souls
3x Karakas
2x Horizon Canopy
7x Plains

Sideboard:
2x Path to Exile
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Containment Priest
2x Rest in Peace
2x Council's Judgment
1x Mirran Crusader
1x Magus of the Moon
1x Faerie Macabre
1x Armageddon
1x Cataclysm

I'm thinking on Adding a 4th Cavern in place of a Canopy and removing an Avenger for a Wingmare or another Wisp. On the board I need to get a 2nd Cataclysm to get rid of Armageddon, and I'd also like to add an Orzhov Pontiff and/or Kambal, Consul of Allocation. I don't think the manabase needs to be warped to play random 1ofs if we're playing 4 Cavern + 4 Vial and the cards we want to 'splash' are only 1 symbol off color.

Remember that Magus of the Moon is not instantly a win against Lands (although it 90% is). They can still cast Gamble and Punishing fire (which is all they need to get rid of the magus). You need an active mum + the magus to completely close the game. I mean, not saying the card is bad (I play it too), just keep in mind that if your opponent suspects it, they can easily play around it (especially if you have to recruit for it).

[RobNC]

Played a 5 round tournament today with 19 people. Didn't actually play that much Magic at the end of the day, but it was a far more competitive field than I'm used to.

Round 1 - Bye!

Round 2 - BR Reanimator (Unmask version)
G1: Early Griselbrand. Reanimate targeting Tidespout when I only have Mom and TGT, I scoop.
G2: Mull to 6 with 2x Faerie Macabre, Rest in Peace, 2 lands and a 6th card I can't remember (it was irrelevant). Discard Faerie to exile is attempt at a T1 Iona. My T2 I drop Rest in Peace, and he scoops.
G3: T0 Chancellor reveal. T1 reanimate Chancellor. Opponent Thoughtseizes me and takes my Plow; I topdeck a Cavern and flash in Containment Priest in response to an attempt to Reanimate Iona. I Path his Chancellor, beat down with Priest while my opponent struggles to find a second land (he "failed to find" off the Path, I'm not sure why though). Opponent concedes after I Recruiter for Faerie Macabre.

Round 3 - BUG Lands Control (a.k.a. "Dr. Evil")
G1: Maindeck Council's Judgment saves me, taking care of his Leovold. Thalia and Crusader swing in for lethal. Turns out he kept a 1-lander with his Mox Diamond so he had a slower than usual start, in which case the "taxes" part of this deck strangled him.
G2: T1 Vial allows me to play more of a control matchup with my lands. He gets a Leovold and Liliana that I can't answer (only one white source). I eventually get a board with Batterskull, SFM, Mom, and Mirran Crusader. Opponent casts Toxic Deluge for 4 wiping my board as well as his Leovold. End of his main phase I Vial in Flickerwisp targetting Batterskull, next turn swing for 7. Cast Recruiter, get Mirran Crusader. End game.

Round 4 - UR Delver
Intentional Draw for lunch!

Round 5 - BR Reanimator?
Intentional Draw!

Quarterfinals - Infect
G1: He counters my T1 Aether Vial, he has a T1 Inkmoth Nexus and pass. I don't remember what I did my turn 2 but it was irrelevant because he had a Forest and triple(!!!) Invigorate T2.
G2: He once again counters my T1 Vial, which my hand was really hoping to land. I get a Cavern (on Human) and Rishadan Port and get an Ethersworn Canonist, followed by Revoker on Hierarch. he gets a Blighted Agent and Inkmoth Nexus and I can't answer either. Feels bad.



Overall I was very happy with my deck choice and based on what I saw around me was happy with my sideboard. I like having 3 Caverns and the amount of times it helps me against a blue deck is far outweighs the few times it screws me over (like G2 against Infect). Today was not the first time I had run 3, although it was the first time I dropped to 2 Karakas as I've been screwed over by drawing multiples far more than I've been able to do Thalia tricks.

Maindeck Council's Judgment (with the second in the side) was because Leovold has been rampant in my local meta and I saw plenty of him around me today.

Sideboard Faerie Macabre has been as a concession to BR Reanimator type decks: instant speed, uncounterable, gets around Chancellor's Force Spike, and is fetchable with Recruiter later in the game when needed again. It's helpful against other graveyard reliant decks as well for it's instant speed "gotcha!" much like Surgical Extraction.

//Maindeck (60)
4 Mother of Runes
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Sanctum Prelate
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Council's Judgment
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
3 Cavern of Souls
2 Karakas
10 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

//Sideboard (15)
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Palace Jailer
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
3 Path to Exile
1 Council's Judgment
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Rest in Peace

[Medea_]

@Aten

I'm not so sure how consistent the BR deck really is. I picked it for for a local legacy league, and it is not performing well. I'm mulliganing frequently, and the bad hands do borderline nothing. It has some nutty god hands that go off on turn one with Chancellor backup, but then there are a handful of hands where you just need to find the right piece of a Faithless Looting or (basically) lose. I think it's just a worse Tin Fins. While slightly less reliant on Entomb than Tin Fins, it doesn't "win" as easily most of the time. You might produce something like a Sire of Insanity, but when your opponent manages to get something as silly as a Goyf or Baleful Strix in play, you stall out. The deck just does not response well to interaction. I think novice players might pick it up to mise wins ala Belcher, but I can't see too many veteran players really wanting to run this through 15 rounds.

[gh0st_b1rd]

On your SB - I think 2 Containment Priest isn't necessary with 3 Recruiters. Cunning Sparkmage helps shore up the Elves matchup from another direction and also is super bomby vs Infect/Dnt. I definitely wouldn't go without one.


I had a Cunning Sparkmage at one point but I had cut it for a Path to Exile because it had seemed like a compromise for fast decks like Elves. I hadn't thought about cutting a Containment Priest because the Sneak and Show and Reanimator match-ups worry me. Realistically if I have a Sparkmage in the place of the 2nd Containment Priest Natural Order would be less of a worry if everything is killed on sight.


Manic Vandal feels like a better fit in the deck than Relic Warder as a human and the shatter effect is more reliable. Yesterday I got my Relic Warder Eldrazi Displacered by my opponent, which is a pretty interesting interaction that didn't end up working well for me (exiled artifact from Relic Warder not yet in play to be targeted by the new copy of the Relic Warder.) And a non-human that you want to cast turn 2 for WW is tough, even for mono-W's mana.

Still, there are 2 reasons I stopped playing Manic Vandal:

a. It's a 3 drop, which means it isn't as fast as killing Vials/Chalices/Jittes before they get value from it.
b. More importantly, it's not a may ability. We can't just Vial it in as a bear if our opponent hasn't played anything relevant, because we have to Vandal our own Vial. In some cases the opponent can respond with things like Flicker their only artifact, kill their own Strix, bounce their Batterskull, and we get pretty wrecked. Relic Warder also eats enchantments, which is most relevant vs Dread of Night, but comes up once in a while elsewhere (Enchantress, Back to Basics, Moat.)

Manic Vandal is played in a very, very reactive fashion but is at its best when your opponent presents two targets. Vs the mirror its a mix of Vials, Revokers, a Needle and Equipment. Vs Shardless its one of their creatures and a sideboard card. Against Eldrazi, I am usually never in a hurry to deal with the Chalice they have played early but always want an answer for their Jittes if I can.

Another card I have considered is Devout Witness and that human powered Disenchant on legs from Innistrad, I don't usually mind that these cards are slow as long as I don't lose to Jitte outright.

[Aten]

@Aten

I'm not so sure how consistent the BR deck really is. I picked it for for a local legacy league, and it is not performing well. I'm mulliganing frequently, and the bad hands do borderline nothing. It has some nutty god hands that go off on turn one with Chancellor backup, but then there are a handful of hands where you just need to find the right piece of a Faithless Looting or (basically) lose. I think it's just a worse Tin Fins. While slightly less reliant on Entomb than Tin Fins, it doesn't "win" as easily most of the time. You might produce something like a Sire of Insanity, but when your opponent manages to get something as silly as a Goyf or Baleful Strix in play, you stall out. The deck just does not response well to interaction. I think novice players might pick it up to mise wins ala Belcher, but I can't see too many veteran players really wanting to run this through 15 rounds.

Really? I've played against it a lot between weekly Legacy events and competitive weekend tournaments in Toronto, and the deck looks really scary. I've yet to see it really lose to itself even; just the other day I watched it rebuild after taking an Emrakul hit from Sneak and quickly assemble the means to reanimate another fatty for lethal. My "classic" D&T build has been doing pretty decently against it (with just the usual suspects like RIP/Containment priest) but I've also had really good luck finding timely Karakases or STP/paths to deal with their fatty; maybe that + the inconsistency/lack of meta presence at the GP level will be enough to overcome the matchup without Faerie?

I played both SOWAP and Pithing Needle #2 at Columbus and both cards felt great the whole tournament; my intent with those two cards is to bring them into a lot of very common GP matchups (notably Burn) to help bring borderline/slightly poor matchups into the even/favourable position.

[RobNC]

I played BR Reanimator a bit and it seems really inconsistent. You do get a number of T1/T2 hands where the opponent just scoops, but you have a lot of games where you do a bad job digging or your T1 attempt gets countered or otherwise interrupted and you do nothing the rest of the game. It has very little interaction and it's sideboard plans are commonly Blood Moon (doesn't hit D&T as hard as others) or Sneak Attack (easy for us to shut down), and less commonly green splash for Abrupt Decay and/or Reverent Silence or white splash for Wear//Tear.

Considering how cheap it is to buy and the reputation it has for being fast/consistent (which may just be because so many people are unprepared for graveyard decks overall), I would definitely expect a lot of it at the GP level, especially early rounds. There's no way I'd run a sideboard without some number of Faerie Macabre and/or Surgical Extraction, although keep in mind Surgical gets hit by the Chancellor reveal while Faerie doesn't.

[Medea_]

Following up on what RobNC said, it also loses quite a bit of the initial starting power in post-board games. Sort of like with ANT, every piece of interaction you board in makes it less likely that you'll combo off on turn one. The Unmask version, for example, might board in things like Collective Brutality to deal with creatures. Unless you blow acceleration on it, that's a turn 2 spell that would lead to a turn 3 reanimation as the follow up; that's a very beatable speed. Similarly, every Abrupt Decay, Sneak Attack, Massacre, Pithing Needle, etc. that goes into the deck clunks up plan A. The deck also goes off with backup a little bit less post-board, as Chancellors are likely to get trimmed for other problematic creatures more fitting for the matchup (Ashen Rider, Blazing Archon, Elesh Norn).

[AsmodeusDM]

I just wanted to add my .02 concerning the red splash.

I really really have been missing Magus and P&K lately. I was honestly never that impressed by any of the other red sideboard options (sudden demise or the sparkmage/sharpshooter options). But those 2 cards in particular just always felt like they helped me the most in the games where I feel the deck struggles the most: grindier midrange-control decks.

Betwen thalia and prelate and sideboard hate pieces I feel as confident as ever vs. unfair combo. Faerie macabre has been a huge help too with the ability to recruit it being a godsend.

Delver games (to me) still feel like they come down to sticking a good piece of equipment (really any of the 3) and just riding that to victory.. Running 6+ Stoneforges via recruiter still feels like this gives us a huge edge. Counterspells have to be at their all time low against us (because of the uptick in Caverns and uptick in Humans) and tyring to waste out D&T is just a losing proposition. Thalia (as always) does the lord's work here; but Prelate on 1 is also just a BIG problem for these decks.

The grindier midrange decks are where I get more concerned: Lands and Shardless in particular. Lands can just grind us out or do some nigh uninteractable combo shinenagins; Shardless is... well shardless. These are the match-ups where I loved Magus and vs. Shardless.. P&K (who incidentally is also fanastic against Miracles).

Additionally, on the play at least, Magus has to be fantastic vs. one of our worst match-ups Eldrazi right?


I don't know but I think in the next few weeks before Louisville I want to go back to testing w/ Red.

[iatee]

I had a Cunning Sparkmage at one point but I had cut it for a Path to Exile because it had seemed like a compromise for fast decks like Elves. I hadn't thought about cutting a Containment Priest because the Sneak and Show and Reanimator match-ups worry me. Realistically if I have a Sparkmage in the place of the 2nd Containment Priest Natural Order would be less of a worry if everything is killed on sight.

Manic Vandal is played in a very, very reactive fashion but is at its best when your opponent presents two targets. Vs the mirror its a mix of Vials, Revokers, a Needle and Equipment. Vs Shardless its one of their creatures and a sideboard card. Against Eldrazi, I am usually never in a hurry to deal with the Chalice they have played early but always want an answer for their Jittes if I can.

Another card I have considered is Devout Witness and that human powered Disenchant on legs from Innistrad, I don't usually mind that these cards are slow as long as I don't lose to Jitte outright.

I tried Devout Witness for a while too. If you have time to get it online in the mirror, you obviously just win. But it can be killed or Revokered for no value so you're not guaranteed to get value out of it when your opponent is bringing in more Needle effects and removal anyway.

I think the big thing about these Shatter effects is that most of the time you are playing them in matchups that can be really defined by early tempo / Wasteland - DnT, Merfolk, Eldrazi / similar Chalice decks, fast Painter hands. You need to be able to play whatever creatures are in your hand to keep up, and the constraints of needing red mana + 3 mana / Vial on 3 + *and* needing a target are huge drawbacks. Sometimes you just need a chump blocker for Eldrazi, or a dude to wield a Jitte, or to take out their Chalice on t2 so your STPs are live before you just get overrun.

Manic Vandal is better than Relic Warder in the long and grindy games where you can afford to pace yourself - vs Stoneblade, Maverick and in DnT or Painter games that go long. Stoneblade and Maverick decks play a lot of removal and Vandal is obviously much better than Relic Warder vs all removal heavy decks. But those decks are yesteryear's t1 and make up much smaller % of the field than decks where Relic Warder is better - more contemporary t1 decks like DnT/Eldrazi/SnS/Omni/Aluren/Lands/Reanimator builds (gets both Animate Dead and Dread). Vandal's marginally better vs Shardless, but it's not a haymaker, I don't think those games are really defined by Shatter effects the same way that Jitte mirrors are and Shardless can play Dread of Night out of the board so there will be some cases where you want the option to eat Enchantments.

[iatee]

I 4-0'd my weekly last night with this. Beat UR TNN/Dack Fayden/TITI, Dredge, Miracles, Grixis Delver.

I dunno if I would take it to a large tournament in this form but it's not unplayable. Pontiff helped me beat a TNN and a Cavern'd Kambal let me come back from a fast Grixis Delver Pyro board. Pia/Kiran came out a few times, Magus wasn't relevant.

Humans:
4 Thalia
4 Mom
2 Kambal
2 Dark Confidant
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Pia/Kiran
1 Sanctum Prelate
3 Recruiter of the Guard

Friends of Humans:
4 SfM
2 Revoker
2 Flickerwisp

Equipment:
4 Vial
4 Stp
3 Equip

Land:
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
3 Port
3 Karakas
2 Plains
5 Fetch
1 Plateau
1 Scrubland


SB:
2 Path
2 Council's Judgment
1 Kambal
1 Rip
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Ethersworn
1 Containment Priest
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic Warder
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Palace Jailer
1 Orzhov Pontiff

[Curby]

Wow, Magus would leave you with 2 white sources in the deck. That seems pretty ambitious. Congrats on the finish though!

[iatee]

http://www.myawesomequotes.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Bill-Bradley-Ambition-is-the-path-to-success-Persistence-is-the-vehicle-you-arrive-in.jpg

[Curby]

Sure, just don't be this guy:

http://files.curby.net/overambitious.jpg

[jwillingham]

http://i.imgur.com/le2cV9e.jpg?2http://i.imgur.com/uVFPuJC.jpg?2

Thought this thread might appreciate my shiny deck. Only non-foils are ports and caverns. Im about 99% certain ports will be in one of the upcoming expedition/masterpiece sets and that cavern of souls will be in MM2017. I'm holding out for the full art ports :tongue:

[iatee]

Gotta upgrade your Paths:

http://d2ydh70d4b5xgv.cloudfront.net/images/7/e/1x-foil-wpn-path-to-exile-nm-mtg-dci-promo-magic-2009-rebecca-guay-5ae17cf73b03cd00e061908f5d252951.jpg

[AsmodeusDM]

I had no idea Guay did a promo PtE!!!!

I must have!!

[Curby]

And only 50% more than a "regular" conflux/commander version. Hmm.

[AsmodeusDM]

Okay so I went through this exercise and wanted to get the group's thoughts.

- I scored each "main deck" card in a typical D&T list against all the major archetypes (comprising 82%) according to mtgtop8 meta-game.
- The remaining 18% was divided (per the meta breakdown) into generic AGGRO, CONTROL, and COMBO categories.
- The following scale was used:

5 - "Best" - A card which will single-handedly take over and win a game; or make it nigh-impossible for an opponent to win a game.
4 - "Great" - A card which interacts in a powerful and meaningful way with the opponent; a "must answer"; a powerful card that can quickly take-over a game.
3 - "Good" - A card which has an impact on the game; it provides an effect which can be useful, but situational. May have powerful effect but only over a limited scope of the opponent's deck.
2 - "OK" - A card which isn't doing too much in a match-up except for providing a body that can eventually attack enough time to win the games.
1 - "Bad" - A card which has very little impact on the game; the body is weak given that the effect does nothing; or it's effect only targets perhaps 1 of an opponent's spells.
0 - "Terrible" - Does nothing in a particular match-up; essentially a mulligan.


I then created a weighted average of each card given the current Top8 Meta (i.e. SUMPRODUCT).

I'm sure we will argue about the ratings I gave to each card (and that's the whole point); but here's the list sorted by highest weighted average to lowest.





11%
10%
9%
10%
8%
6%
6%
5%
5%
4%
4%
4%
3%
3%
3%
3%
2%
2%
2%


Card
Weight Average
Miracles
Eldrazi Aggro
Shardless
AGGRO
Reanimator
Grixis Delver
COMBO
D&T
Elves
Stoneblade
4c Delver
Storm
S&T
UR Delver
Aggro Loam
Lands
Infect
Aluren
CONTROL


Aether Vial
3.4
5
3
5
3
3
4
2
4
2
4
4
2
2
4
2
2
3
3
3


Swords to Plowshares
3.3
2
4
3
5
3
4
1
5
5
3
4
0
2
4
4
3
5
2
2


Sanctum Prelate
3.1
4
1
3
2
4
4
5
1
1
3
4
5
5
4
3
4
1
5
4


Recruiter of the Guard
3.0
4
3
4
3
2
3
2
4
3
3
3
2
2
3
3
3
3
3
3


Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3.0
4
1
4
2
4
4
5
1
0
3
4
5
4
4
2
3
2
2
3


Flickerwisp
3.0
3
4
3
3
1
4
1
4
3
4
4
1
2
4
3
4
3
3
3


Umezawa's Jitte
2.9
2
4
3
5
0
4
0
5
5
3
4
0
0
4
2
2
5
4
2


Batterskull
2.6
3
3
3
5
0
4
0
3
2
3
4
0
0
4
2
2
1
2
4


Mirran Crusader
2.5
2
2
4
4
2
2
2
3
3
2
3
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2


Stoneforge Mystic
2.5
3
3
3
4
0
4
0
4
2
3
4
0
0
4
3
1
3
1
3


Serra Avenger
2.4
2
3
2
3
1
3
1
3
3
3
3
1
1
3
3
3
3
2
3


Mother of Runes
2.3
2
1
4
4
0
4
0
4
1
3
4
0
0
4
4
3
1
1
3


Phyrexian Revoker
2.1
4
1
3
1
1
2
1
4
4
2
2
3
3
0
2
1
1
1
3


Sword of Fire and Ice
2.1
3
2
2
2
0
4
0
3
2
4
4
0
0
4
2
2
2
3
3

[AsmodeusDM]

4%
4%
3%
3%
3%
3%
2%
2%
2%


Card
Weight Average
4c Delver
Storm
S&T
UR Delver
Aggro Loam
Lands
Infect
Aluren
CONTROL


Aether Vial
3.4
4
2
2
4
2
2
3
3
3


Swords to Plowshares
3.3
4
0
2
4
4
3
5
2
2


Sanctum Prelate
3.1
4
5
5
4
3
4
1
5
4


Recruiter of the Guard
3.0
3
2
2
3
3
3
3
3
3


Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3.0
4
5
4
4
2
3
2
2
3


Flickerwisp
3.0
4
1
2
4
3
4
3
3
3


Umezawa's Jitte
2.9
4
0
0
4
2
2
5
4
2


Batterskull
2.6
4
0
0
4
2
2
1
2
4


Mirran Crusader
2.5
3
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2


Stoneforge Mystic
2.5
4
0
0
4
3
1
3
1
3


Serra Avenger
2.4
3
1
1
3
3
3
3
2
3


Mother of Runes
2.3
4
0
0
4
4
3
1
1
3


Phyrexian Revoker
2.1
2
3
3
0
2
1
1
1
3


Sword of Fire and Ice
2.1
4
0
0
4
2
2
2
3
3

[Curby]

Sweet, thanks for doing that! Reminds me a bit of the burn deck breakdown I did about a decade ago. :eyebrow:

I'm happy to see that everything ends up with a 2 or better. Based on this analysis, any card that scores less than 2 doesn't belong in the maindeck (but might still be useful in the side). Two feature requests, if you have the time:

1) Can you calculate the standard deviation, or some other measure of the "swinginess" of the card? Cards that are either 4s or 0s across the board might belong in the side.

2) Given that you're going as narrow as Mirran Crusader, who is usually 0 or 1 copies in most maindecks, would you mind including other toolbox pieces as time permits? Specifically, Palace Jailer, Banisher Priest, Mangara of Corondor, Spirit of the Labyrinth, Thalia, Heretic Cathar. These are all cards that are considered general enough to see some maindeck play.

Thanks again.

EDIT: 3) Mind looking at land too? Much like our creatures, they serve two roles. Wasteland and Port are pretty staple, but the numbers of Cavern, Karakas, Mishra's Factory, etc. vary quite a bit.

[Marungo]

Hey sorry not to jump in and interrupt conversation but I've taken quite the hiatus from competitive legacy thanks to school and life stuff, about 3 months to be exact. I still followed the format somewhat and saw the rise of reanimator. I see everyone packing a faerie macabre now and wanted to know what matchups you found it good in other than reanimator. Lands I'm sure it's good against, but anything else. (FWIW don't say stuff like Dredge or UB reanimator which are obvious) What matchups do we bring it in against and how many does everyone think is the right number?

[RobNC]

Hey sorry not to jump in and interrupt conversation but I've taken quite the hiatus from competitive legacy thanks to school and life stuff, about 3 months to be exact. I still followed the format somewhat and saw the rise of reanimator. I see everyone packing a faerie macabre now and wanted to know what matchups you found it good in other than reanimator. Lands I'm sure it's good against, but anything else. (FWIW don't say stuff like Dredge or UB reanimator which are obvious) What matchups do we bring it in against and how many does everyone think is the right number?

Reanimator, any Loam decks, Dredge, Snapcaster decks. Storm if you're desperate for sideboard cards.

I personally am running a 2/1 split of Faerie and Rest in Peace. Don't forget Faerie is tutorable with Recruiter.

[AsmodeusDM]

Included the weighted var and stdev.
No surprises; Mom and the equipment is the swingiest (at least according to my rankings)

Recruiter, Wisp, Vial and solid beaters (Crusader and Avenger) are the least swingy.




"Count"
Card
Wt_Mean
Variance*
STDEV*
Mean-1std
Mean+1std


2
Recruiter
3.0
0.5
0.7
2.3
3.8


4
Wisp
3.0
1.2
1.1
1.9
4.1


1
Crusader
2.5
1.2
1.1
1.4
3.6


4
Vial
3.3
1.3
1.1
2.1
4.4


2
Avenger
2.4
1.5
1.2
1.1
3.6


4
STP
3.3
1.8
1.4
1.9
4.6


2
Prelate
3.1
2.0
1.4
1.7
4.5


4
Thalia
3.0
2.1
1.5
1.6
4.5


3
Revoker
2.1
2.9
1.7
0.4
3.8


4
SFM
2.4
3.0
1.7
0.7
4.1


1
Bskull
2.6
3.0
1.7
0.8
4.3


1
SoFI
2.1
3.1
1.7
0.4
3.9


1
Jitte
2.9
3.4
1.8
1.0
4.7


4
Mom
2.3
3.6
1.9
0.4
4.2

[AsmodeusDM]

Also took a typical deck list using the above card counts to give a weighted "deck value" vs. each opponent deck...

Not sure if I agree with the exact "ranking" since it calculates out with such a bad combo score; mainly because of how many dead cards there are vs. combo (Plows, Moms, most equipment [ergo SFM]). May need to tweak that a bit potentially..




Opp_Deck
Wt. Value


4c Delver
3.7


Grixis Delver
3.7


D&T
3.5


UR Delver
3.5


Shardless
3.4


AGGRO
3.2


Stoneblade
3.1


Miracles
3.1


CONTROL
2.9


Aggro Loam
2.8


Lands
2.6


Infect
2.6


Elves
2.4


Eldrazi
2.4


Aluren
2.2


S&T
1.8


Reanimator
1.7


Storm
1.6


COMBO
1.5

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Don't forget Faerie is tutorable with Recruiter.

Hard to forget as it's really the only reason to play the Faerie in the first place.

[Curby]

Hard to forget as it's really the only reason to play the Faerie in the first place.

Wait, what? Most players were still on RIP before BR Reanimator was a thing, with some splashing the occasional Relic or Surgical. I added Faerie not (primarily) because of Recruiter, but rather because of BR Reanimator: it's a turn 0, Chancellor-proof way to remove two reanimation targets from their yard.

Anyway, yeah it works with both Recruiter and Vial.

[RobNC]

Wait, what? Most players were still on RIP before BR Reanimator was a thing, with some splashing the occasional Relic or Surgical. I added Faerie not (primarily) because of Recruiter, but rather because of BR Reanimator: it's a turn 0, Chancellor-proof way to remove two reanimation targets from their yard.

Anyway, yeah it works with both Recruiter and Vial.

+1 to this. I'm even using it in other decks in place of some traditional graveyard hate as well, primarily due to lots of BR Reanimator. The fact that it's tutorable is just a huge bonus for us.

Surgical Extraction is also great "free" instant-speed hate but it can get countered by a Chancellor reveal, which won't always bail you out in a T1 reanimation like Faerie can.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I added Faerie not (primarily) because of Recruiter, but rather because of BR Reanimator: it's a turn 0, Chancellor-proof way to remove two reanimation targets from their yard.






Surgical Extraction is also great "free" instant-speed hate but it can get countered by a Chancellor reveal, which won't always bail you out in a T1 reanimation like Faerie can.

I forget that they play Chancellor, and I can see it being rough, but it's still weaker than almost any other competitive gy hate card. I definitely think it's worse against lands, dredge, etc. I can't really say I think its worth it, you have to get pretty lucky

I'm trying out just 1 Faerie in place of 1 RIP, still have 1 RIP and 1 cage, but again, I also play some number of Mox Diamond/Chrome Mox, so I can sometimes power it out turn 1. I did not realize you guys were playing it mainly for that reason. I am fine without warping my board and losing percentage points against other matchups, if they win before I can play a card, that's legacy.

[Curby]

I agree Faerie is definitely weak overall compared to something like RiP, so it comes down to the meta you expect to face.

Faerie was always recruitable, but the printing of Recruiter didn't instantly make Faerie a sideboard staple. It was the shift in metagame, i.e. the surge in BR Reanimator, that made it a more common include. There's a big debate as to the long-term viability of BR Reanimator in Legacy, so if it fades from popularity you might not see many Faeries in D&T sideboards in 6 months time.

[RobNC]

I went from 2 RIP to 1 RIP and 2 Faerie. It's helped in other situations too, but there are a lot of graveyard dependent decks in my meta. Exiling the only dredgers from your Dredge opponent's graveyard before their draw step feels real good, especially because you used your mana to drop a threat. Or catching your opponent unawares and exiling a Loam when they don't have the mana to cycle the land in their hand. It's not always better, but particularly against Reanimator decks it's usually better.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Ok. I guess I can just be thankful I'm up against traditional gy lists like dredge, manaless dredge, storm, Ub reanimator, etc., instead of Re(d)animator. I will still play 1 in my board just to feel it out, but only because elves don't exist in my meta, so I'm fairly comfortable with dropping the cage for 1 faerie, but I think I'll end up staying @ 2 RIP.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[gh0st_b1rd]

I finally got the chance to playtest vs Elves with my RW list and I must say that my sideboard might be a little overloaded for the Elves match-up.

After playing that match up a lot I had many reservations about boarding in only a single Containment Priest. Originally I cut the 2nd Containment Priest for a Path because I thought that speed was a concern. Speed is obviously still a concern but the quality of a card like Containment Priest is more meanigful when naturally drawn than tutored for with Recruiter and compared to a card like Path in then Elves match up. Also the Elves match up isnt so bad without Sudden Demise actually. They can obviously nut draw you but that happens when you dont play FoW and Brainstorm in your deck. Also 2nd Containment Priest is very good vs SnS.

Also I have decided to cut Manic Vandal from my board because any match up I board Vandal in against I also board in Council's Judgment. Against Shardless BUG and Grixis Control I can probably just lean on Pia and Kiran Nalaar in order to deal with late game Strixes and DRS and Sudden Demise is not a bad card to play vs these decks. Vs DnT Sparkmage is enough to swing games in my favor. Has anybody tried boarding in Sudden Demise for the mirror before?

Regarding the BR Reanimator decks is it not a sustainable plan to just Path/Swords their early Griselbrands and then make an attempt to seal the game with Rest in Peace and duder lock pieces?

Anyways a revision of my SB is

1 Rest in Peace
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Cunning Sparkmage
1 Path to Exile
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Sudden Demise
2 Council's Judgment

I might just cut the last RIP for the 2nd Faerie Macabre anyway just because I know that I can lean harder on Magus of the Moon if I am cutting corners.

[drfish]

Karakas and STP, then Faerie macabre, Rest in peace, Grafdigger’s cage, and Containment priest are indeed our best friends against BR reanimator. We actually have really lots of tools to screw up their plans, but the problem is always speed, as against many other combo decks. As I face many of them in my local meta, I totally remodeled my list for my last local tournament, adding lots of mana acceleration, hoping to bypass revealed Chancellors of the Annex and even resolve funky turn 1 Thalias. Here is the list :

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Plains
3 Karakas
3 Cavern of souls
1 Eiganjo Castle

4 Chrome Mox
4 Aether vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa’s jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

3 Elvish spirit guide
4 Thalia, guardian of Thraben
4 Thalia, heretic cathar
3 Phyrexian revoker
3 Mother of runes
3 Flickerwisp
3 Stoneforge mystic
2 Recruiter of the guard
1 Sanctum prelate

Sideboard :

2 Containment priest
1 Mirran crusader
1 Fiendslayer paladin
1 Faerie macabre
1 Palace jailer
2 Cataclysm
2 Enlightened tutor
1 Seal of cleansing
1 Grafdigger’s cage
1 Rest in peace
1 Ethersworn canonist
1 Ghostly prison

I finished 3/1, won against MUD, UB reanimator, and BR reanimator. I particularly enjoyed flash-casting Containment priest out of nowhere with Elvish Spirit guide in response to reanimation. I also decided to include the green guides because I expected to face daze-based decks, but it never happened. Mox Chrome is actually more playable than what I feared (in particular with 8 legendary white cards), and can eventually even work to produce generic mana with an exiled Elvish spirit guide. If drawn in late game, the latter can also be played as a creature (that still nicely holds equipments) with Aether vial or eventually Cavern of souls. Chrome mox is much worse in late game, but it replaces 4 plains in my list, so I guess it’s an acceptable drawback, especially since I anyway expected to win faster than with a conventional list.

Unfortunately, I was quite disappointed to lose in finals against Elves. I however have not much regret as I did not see any fast mana on G1, and I had to mulligan to 5 during G2. He had good hands on both games (and Behemoth in hand two times which nicely bypassed my hate), so there wasn’t much I could do. The matchup is still very favored for Elves, but I believe there is space to easily steal games against them, with a quick resolved Thalia v2.0 for instance. I will try to get a hand on Simian spirit guides to replace the green ones at the next event. The green mana produced by the latter was only used as generic fast mana, and it was a shame I did not profit from the color splash at all, at least for just a single Gaddock Teeg in the SB (I only though about it too late). A real red splash would allow me to play additional hate in the form of Magus of the moon and Sudden demise, which would definitely be needed there.

[RobNC]

...

Regarding the BR Reanimator decks is it not a sustainable plan to just Path/Swords their early Griselbrands and then make an attempt to seal the game with Rest in Peace and duder lock pieces?

...

If they know you're on D&T their first Entomb/Reanimate target isn't going to be Griselbrand, it's going to be Iona, Shield of Emeria. Think you can race a 7/7 with nothing but Phrexian Revoker... and relying on Aether Vial to put in your white creatures? :tongue:

[mykatdied]

My experience is that Archetype of Endurance is their go to if they know I am on Death and Taxes. Giving all their creatures hexproof is really good against us usually.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I agree that IF they play Archetype, it's their best and first choice. Having said that, my experience has been that most UBx Reanimator player's don't often play it (though they should), and the next best creature is Elesh Norn. I could be incorrect, but I do not believe so.

[Draggo]

So, I've been playing a ton of Tempo for the past years and wanted something else for a change, so I made "Death & Taxes". But since I don't really liked to get Ports, I spiced up the list a bit.

This is what it turned out to be. You might think it's not really suitable for this D&T thread, but I can't really find a better place to drop it since it's more common with D&T then Eldrazi-aggro or Thalia-Stompy-alike decks.

Lands 23
10 Plains
2 Karakas
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
4 Eldrazi Temple
2 Ancient Tomb

Creatures 25
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Aven Mindcensor

Spells 12
4 AEther Vial
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Warping Wail

Sideboard 15
2 Rest in Peace
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 Manriki-Gusari
3 Lotus Petal
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Path to Exile
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Disenchant

Little explanation on why I picked some cards over the standard staples:
Displacer: Reuse/protect your own stuff or blink away the enemy horde to hit. Not much of a suprise here I guess
Though-Knot: Big body, really good ability. Basicly big hate bear.
Even Mindcensor: Used to be a staple I think. I like it now that I got the 2 Tombs.
Eldrazi Temple/Tomb: Ramp out the Eldrai

No Flickerwisp?: Already got Displacer that seems to handle pritty well. Also I always felt it was a bit awkward without Vial. It's really good in combination with Displacer but dropped it over it's 1WW casting cost an gave it's spot to Aven.
No Revoker main?: I don't know if it's worth the spot, might need some help with a list of targets to call in match-ups.
No Recruiter?: I was set on this list before recruiter came to the show. Also it seems slower
No Ports?: Nope...
No Factory?: Seems like a 1-off in alot of decks. I liked it but swapped it over to Tomb that seems to have a bigger impact.

The Petals sideboard are there to ramp out hatebears against decks like ANT/Storm where I don't need the AEther Vials and can use the turn 1 Talia on the draw.


So what do you guys here think of the list and got any ideas how to improve it?
I seem to have trouble playing vs Miracles. Is this a bad match-up for D&T in general or am I doing something wrong here?

[mykatdied]

I agree that IF they play Archetype, it's their best and first choice. Having said that, my experience has been that most UBx Reanimator player's don't often play it (though they should), and the next best creature is Elesh Norn. I could be incorrect, but I do not believe so.

Sorry. I saw the quote you were responding to was about BR reanimator. Just wanted to add a bit to that. I have found they go for archetype or iona as you said. I generally don't see Elesh Norn very often out of BR. Which strikes me as odd. It's very good against a lot of the field.

[RobNC]

Draggo - that list looks very similar to how the Thalia Stompy deck originated. There were a number of players here experimenting with TKS and Displacer in a D&T shell, and "8 Thalia" decks spun out of that.

[cursecatcher]

What are the best sideboard cards/plans vs aluren? I've found the matchup to be tough post board when they bring in multiple deluges and other removal to answer revoker and sanctum prelate.

[AsmodeusDM]

What are the best sideboard cards/plans vs aluren? I've found the matchup to be tough post board when they bring in multiple deluges and other removal to answer revoker and sanctum prelate.

Deluge will always be a great card against us unfortunately.

Ethersworn Canonist obviously does great work in the Aluren match-up.

Pithing needle.

If it's in there, Mindcensor can limit effectiveness of IRecruiters.

[RobNC]

...and don't think Containment Priest will help you. The creatures are (unfortunately for us) technically being cast.

[iatee]

Real problem with the Aluren matchup is that they're doing relevant stuff even when they're not comboing. So if you put all of your energy towards not letting them resolve an Aluren, they can just outgrind you with Leovold, Baleful Strix, Decay, Shardless, DRS.

Ethersworn/Revoker/Relic Warder are all things you can do to avoid getting combo'd out, but I think you need to try and kill them quickly, cause you're not winning the long game, even when it's a fair long game. Mirran Crusader is probably the best bet here and if my local meta were filled with Aluren I would probably go deep on Crusaders.

[tarmogoat]

If they know you're on D&T their first Entomb/Reanimate target isn't going to be Griselbrand, it's going to be Iona, Shield of Emeria. Think you can race a 7/7 with nothing but Phrexian Revoker... and relying on Aether Vial to put in your white creatures? :tongue:

It's possible to win through Iona Vial. You just gotta sequence right and have some luck on your side. Vial in a Flickerwisp exiling Iona and slam a Containment Priest, tt's not that far fetched really. If they have a Needle on Karakas you just flicker the needle and use Karakas. Same applies to Elesh Norn, you can beat those with Priest/Karakas and a wisp.


Deluge will always be a great card against us unfortunately.

Ethersworn Canonist obviously does great work in the Aluren match-up.

Pithing needle.

If it's in there, Mindcensor can limit effectiveness of IRecruiters.

I found aluren to be beatable through Wastelands, Ports and swords/revokers on DRS.

I play 3 SFM and 3 Equipment in my MB, 5 out of those 6 go out (leaving only Jitte which is relevant), I also take out Mirran Crusader and Serra Avengers. My plan is:

-3 Stoneforge Mystic
-1 Batterskull
-1 Sword of Fire and Ice
-2 Serra Avenger

+2 Path to Exile
+2 Ethersworn Canonist
+2 Council's Judgment
+1 Cataclysm

I'd add a 2nd cataclysm and remove a Mother of Runes if I had a 2nd copy. If you don't let them cheat on mana to Get to aluren, force them to fetch basics to dodge Wastelands and port them often (even if you can't cast anything just to get more counters on your vial or to get more land-drops) you usually race them just fine. Prelate should be cast on 2, 3 or 4, depending on how the game develops (2 stops decay, 3 stops deluge and 4 -if everything is going out of control- stops aluren). It's usually a 50/50 MU, you can use flickerwisp and removal in key moments to close them off the combo, so you have to play very tight in the MU.

[Atherion]

I play reanimator and grisel first is always a good choice, karakasing Iona is an instaloss almost all the time, where as reanimating grisel first turn is almost always an instawin. But sadly with the absurd amount of gravehate I'm seeing -DnT player overdo it the most :-D - you should be just fine.

[iatee]

Yeah, Reanimator getting an Iona is a YOLO play that works out for them sometimes but loses the game for them at least as often. I don't think good players actually do it too frequently. If they know you're on DnT, you probably know they're on Reanimator, so your chances of having a Karakas in your keep is even higher. If they can read your hand with a Thoughtseize effect, know for sure you don't have a Karakas + you don't have an active Vial, then Iona can be a fine play because your chances of drawing one within the next few turns are pretty low. And if you do have a Vial, you don't even need Containment Priest, you can also stay alive with Mom + Flyer, race them with double Flickerwisp, etc.

[Aten]

Has anybody been testing the 4 flier maindeck versions against the mirror? I know a lot of people still play 4 Flickerwisps and 2 Avengers but I'm on 3 and 1. I feel like this makes me super super weak in the mirror and my regular slots for D&T in the board have been getting cut for Reanimator hate.

This is a list I'm working on for Louisville though so I want to make sure I have my matchup %s shored up as much as possible across the field.

23 Lands

4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Mom
3 Revoker
3 SFM
1 Spirit of the Lab
2 Prelate
3 Recruiter
3 Flickerwisp
1 Avenger
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Palace Jailer

4 Aether Vial
1 Jitte
1 SoFaI
1 Batterskull
4 STP

Sideboard:
2 Gideon AOZ
1 Cataclysm
2 RIP
2 Path to Exile
1 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Pithing Needle
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Council's Judgment

Right now, my "locked" cards for the SB are everything except 2nd Gideon, 2 Macabres, and 2nd Canonist.

Here's my reasoning for them:
2nd Gideon - great against the mirror (which I am incredibly soft to thanks to my lower flier count... but fliers are just so medium in other matchups right now), Miracles, Shardless. All popular decks that will show up in masses at the GP level

2 Macabres - my only real early interaction vs BR Reanimator. These two slots feel so bad to have but I don't want to get caught with my pants down. I don't play Legacy online due to lack of funds for ports so I'm not sure what the large meta looks like atm

2nd Canonist - for Elves, Storm, Burn, and Aluren. Aluren and Elves in particular seem to be rising in popularity so this feels like a must-have. Also Burn is always stupidly popular at the GP level... yucky but WCYD


The last 3 cards I REALLY want to squeeze in are 1x Pontiff, 1x Sword of War and Peace, and the 2nd Pithing Needle. Pontiff is awesome in the mirror and vs Elves, SOWAP is great in the mirror and vs Miracles/combo, and 2nd Needle is just a great catch-all. In particular, these are 3 cards that REALLY help me a lot against other D&T decks. I feel confident in my ability to out-navigate the mirror against the average GP level player but it feels like there are a large range of hands where I am just dead even if I play perfectly thanks to the way my deck is constructed. I'm not certain how badly I'll need the extra SB slots.

What do you guys think? How would you guys build a sideboard for GP Louisville based on meta expectation?

[nevilshute]

Recorded a legacy league playing Arbiter Taxes. Will record one with a more regular D&T list too: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLHk0w4Md8v4ApR0pgnIPVsTIGTMT7sQsJ

[tarmogoat]

Recorded a legacy league playing Arbiter Taxes. Will record one with a more regular D&T list too: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLHk0w4Md8v4ApR0pgnIPVsTIGTMT7sQsJ

Thanks for this, I was wondering about Arbiter's weight on Legacy alongside the good ol Ghost Quarter, although I'm not sure about the impact it has on SFM and Recruiter, which I don't think can play along Arbiter (or it could hurt). Streaming now.

[nevilshute]

Thanks for this, I was wondering about Arbiter's weight on Legacy alongside the good ol Ghost Quarter, although I'm not sure about the impact it has on SFM and Recruiter, which I don't think can play along Arbiter (or it could hurt). Streaming now.

Thanks for watching. I think it might be correct to go up to the 25th land adding a white source, probably another plains. Having played a couple of leagues now I do seem to mulligan just a tad bit much.

I think we need the stoneforge package at least somewhat intact. I personally don't feel like playing without the batterskull in there because the deck can otherwise feel a bit low on beefyness. We don't run the avengers and so we can end up a bit light in creature matchups when we can't fetch out a batterskull. Having said that it is something to be mindful of for sure.

[tarmogoat]

Thanks for watching. I think it might be correct to go up to the 25th land adding a white source, probably another plains. Having played a couple of leagues now I do seem to mulligan just a tad bit much.

I think we need the stoneforge package at least somewhat intact. I personally don't feel like playing without the batterskull in there because the deck can otherwise feel a bit low on beefyness. We don't run the avengers and so we can end up a bit light in creature matchups when we can't fetch out a batterskull. Having said that it is something to be mindful of for sure.

I commented on your video for M3 I think, the one vs Delver, about the play you chose with SFM. Would love feedback on that thought.
I think Arbiter can be lackluster, although SFM too in some matches, but GQ power level is not dependant on having Arbiter out. Maybe no Arbiter, no Mindcensor and 2 GQ with 24 lands is the way to achieve balance between a more powerful mana denial plan and the consistency of D&T. This would free up 2 slots for basics/white sources or even 2 caverns and free up 6 slots to get 2/3 Recruiters, 1/2 Prelates, 1/2 Avengers and maybe the 4th Mom.

I am also pondering with the idea of running a little black splash for Dark Confidant in the main some SB tech cards and 3 Thoughtseizes in the 75. But I'm not sure how to balance the slots. Here's where I'm at with this idea:

4x Aether Vial
1x Thoughtseize
3x Mother of Runes
4x Swords to Plowshares

4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Dark Confidant
2x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Umezwa's Jitte

4x Flickerwisp
2x Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2x Recruiter of the Guard
1x Sanctum Prelate
1x Mirran Crusader
1x Sword of Fire and Ice

1x Batterskull

4x Marsh Flats
3x Scrubland
3x Plains
3x Karakas
2x Cavern of Souls
4x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland

2x Thoughtseize
2x Containment Priest
2x Rest in Peace
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Faerie Macabre
1x Lingering Souls
1x Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1x Council's Judgment
1x Vindicate
1x Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1x Cataclysm

I'm still not convinced if the effort is worth. Anyone with experience can tell if this approach can be good? I'd asume in a grindy and combo meta the black can really weigh in, which is the case in my LGS.

[LegacyIsAnEternalFormat]

http://mythicspoiler.com/aer/cards/renegaderallier.jpg
this card seems ok for the green splash but Im not sure what I would take out for this. I think its a pretty good utility card, that can get back cards like Thalia, Umezawa's Jitte, Wasteland, Serra Avenger, Qasali Pridemage, Revoker, e.t.c back to the battlefield. I can see it as atleast a 1of in the deck as it can be tutored by recruiter. Also, with the green splash you have fetchlands so it is easier to trigger revolt and the revolt mechanic really fits that ability for obvious reasons.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

This looks a lot like what it will take to get maverick going again...

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[Medea_]

I'm not really convinced Renegade Rallier does anything that the deck really needs. I just don't think the power level of this card is high enough to want to work with the conditions. If I'm playing green splash D&T, I'd rather have things like Teeg in my flex slots. If I'm playing Maverick, this is approximate in power level to Eternal Witness, and is probably not a reason to pick up the deck. I think the ideal situations are great, but the average situation might be pretty underwhelming.

[AsmodeusDM]

3 days until the GP and I still haven't nailed down my 75...

My general questions:

1. There's been a bit more hype about S&T in the last few weeks; and Reanimator continues to be on an upswing -> (SB) 2 Containment Priests??

2. D&T is going to be popular with new toys; additionally have seen some movement from Stoneblade decks -> (SB) Manriki Gusari??

3. In a GP I want broad answers and decks have begun leaning on TNN again -> 2? Council's Judgement

4. Is Cataclysm needed in SB? Is Gideon enough vs. Miracles; do I want Cata for other match-ups? i.e. lands or 12post or Shardless?

5. THC. I was running 3 in the main; then 2 in the main; now 0. I have no idea even after playing with her if I like her or not.

6. Another deck purported to pop (and the cost is way down if you use Recruiter of the Guard) is Aluren; Revoker(mb) and Canonist(sb) seem like the best options. Is there anything else to include?

7. Has anyone figured out a way yet to have a good/positive match-up vs. Eldrazi?

8. Palace Jailer? Super expensive Banisher Priest? or great card for drawing cards and repeatable (i.e. flickerable) removal?

9. Last, (the big one); do I include a small splash for either Magus and/or Pontiff. In a world of Shardless, Eldrazi, Lands,etc... Magus seems very appealing. And against Elves; TNNs and even the mirror.. Pontiff feels like he do good work.

[iatee]

I don't think anyone really knows the answers to most of those questions. Other than 'should you play THC', where the answer is 'Obviously not'. Beyond that, just make a meta-call and stick with it.

Also, I think people really overrate Manriki as a mirror breaker. If they're ahead you'll never get to actually use it. If you're ahead, just wreck house with Jitte.

[gh0st_b1rd]

I would be more paranoid of Lands and their alternate ways to deal with us because we have been cutting down on Cataclysms and RIP entirely from the SB lately.

Anyways I think safe cards to run would be more Pithing Needles and perhaps a 3rd Council's Judgment in the SB if you're worried about the mirror. Orzhov Pontiff if you want to venture a splash.

[Minniehajj]

6. Another deck purported to pop (and the cost is way down if you use Recruiter of the Guard) is Aluren; Revoker(mb) and Canonist(sb) seem like the best options. Is there anything else to include?

Small thing, Canonist doesn't actually do anything to Aluren, all of their important creatures are artifacts. The prevailing version is the no-recruiter BUG variant, and you cannot do anything against the combo if you're relying on canonist.

[RobNC]

Not going to address each question individually but I hope to address most of them generally.

Containment Priest is always a 2-of for me. Especially potent with Cavern of Souls to avoid a Chancellor of the Annex trigger. Against S&S keep in mind that flashing in response to a Sneak Attack activation still allows them to activate the ability in response to you, effectively getting the creature in anyways.

Manriki-Gusari is pretty narrow. Great against mirror and other blade decks, but if I were to sleeve up D&T this weekend I'd probably put in an additional Council's Judgment instead. Handles equipment like Manriki-Gusari, but also handles True-Name Nemesis and Leovold, Emissary of Trest which are both on the rise and I would expect to see a lot of, especially the latter in Aluren and Shardless.

For Aluren, I don't know the best way to fight the combo, but I do know that outside of discard they have zero ways to handle a Mirran Crusader. Suit him up with equipment and steal the game. Prelate targets would be 2 for Decay, 4 for Aluren, and 1 for Brainstorm/Ponder/Thoughtseize depending on what they're running. Revoker should be set on Cavern Harpy.

[RobNC]

Small thing, Canonist doesn't actually do anything to Aluren, all of their important creatures are artifacts. The prevailing version is the no-recruiter BUG variant, and you cannot do anything against the combo if you're relying on canonist.

Cavern Harpy isn't an artifact. Only half the combo is. They'll still be able to flash in Agent and both Strixes, but not loop them.

[Medea_]

Yup, I have literally no idea what 75 I am submitting. I keep switching back and forth. I'm with Iatee in that there aren't easy answers here.

1. There's been a bit more hype about S&T in the last few weeks; and Reanimator continues to be on an upswing -> (SB) 2 Containment Priests??
I would probably run more dedicated graveyard hate than normal of some nature. Containment Priest is probably a great card to have for the weekend, though it might be a good time to run at least one extra piece of faster interactions.

2. D&T is going to be popular with new toys; additionally have seen some movement from Stoneblade decks -> (SB) Manriki Gusari??

I don't think Manriki Gusari is worth a slot. I always advocate SoWaP as a card that has overlap with Miracles. This might be a weekend where I have to trim SoWaP though to make room for an extra piece of gravehate.

3. In a GP I want broad answers and decks have begun leaning on TNN again -> 2? Council's Judgement
I always run two of these. The flexability is grand.

4. Is Cataclysm needed in SB? Is Gideon enough vs. Miracles; do I want Cata for other match-ups? i.e. lands or 12post or Shardless?
No.
Yes, Gideon is alternative pressure with great overlap elsewhere.
Cataclysm has utility elsewhere, but it is never going to win you the game on its own. It's really RiP or Mirran Crusader type cards that do the heavy lifting there, and I don't think it is necessary.


5. THC. I was running 3 in the main; then 2 in the main; now 0. I have no idea even after playing with her if I like her or not.
I'm on zero. I will not be returning to THC without acceleration at this time.

6. Another deck purported to pop (and the cost is way down if you use Recruiter of the Guard) is Aluren; Revoker(mb) and Canonist(sb) seem like the best options. Is there anything else to include?
I like at least a singleton Mirran Crusader to fight the midrange portion of that deck.

7. Has anyone figured out a way yet to have a good/positive match-up vs. Eldrazi?
Path helps, but the matchup is still going to be difficult.

8. Palace Jailer? Super expensive Banisher Priest? or great card for drawing cards and repeatable (i.e. flickerable) removal?
High upside, slight risk card. Won't always be amazing, but when it is, it will be a game winner. I'm leaning towards not having it currently, though it has been good in testing.

9. Last, (the big one); do I include a small splash for either Magus and/or Pontiff. In a world of Shardless, Eldrazi, Lands,etc... Magus seems very appealing. And against Elves; TNNs and even the mirror.. Pontiff feels like he do good work.
I'm leaning towards no personally, but it is very justifiable. I think that there tends to be so much Burn on day one of a GP that I don't want to make Price of Progress better against me.

[iatee]

I would be more paranoid of Lands and their alternate ways to deal with us because we have been cutting down on Cataclysms and RIP entirely from the SB lately.

Anyways I think safe cards to run would be more Pithing Needles and perhaps a 3rd Council's Judgment in the SB if you're worried about the mirror. Orzhov Pontiff if you want to venture a splash.

Sanctum Prelate turned Lands into a matchup I'd take over basically every other t1 deck.

[AsmodeusDM]

Sanctum Prelate turned Lands into a matchup I'd take over basically every other t1 deck.

I will agree with this: Sticking Prelate on 2 really cramps their deck so hard it's impossible for them to get out of...short of a crop_roto/gamble to try to combo off.

[Adan]

1. There's been a bit more hype about S&T in the last few weeks; and Reanimator continues to be on an upswing -> (SB) 2 Containment Priests??

Show and Tell definitely isn't a problem. You are already quite favored against SnT decks, the dangerous builds are the ones with Omniscience and Cunning Wish where Containment Priest doesn't do anything significant. Sanctum Prelate is more important here.
And against BR Reanimate, you still have solid tools in Swords to Plowshares and Karakas, possibly also Path to Exile in the SB. Banisher Priest is very strong here, too. A fast Sire of Insanity is preboard the biggest threat, but in some situations Mother of Runes can stall it all day long and you can easily come back into the game.
However, 1st Turn explosiveness with Chancellor revealed is usually lights out and feels like playing against Belcher, but hopefully these people won't make it that far.


2. D&T is going to be popular with new toys; additionally have seen some movement from Stoneblade decks -> (SB) Manriki Gusari??

Manriki is very good in the mirrormatch, but then again I think it's a narrow SB card and also no guarantee to win the mirror efficiently. It often all boils down to who connects first with Jitte.


3. In a GP I want broad answers and decks have begun leaning on TNN again -> 2? Council's Judgement

2 is a good number, that card is versatile as hell. Good against Nemesis, can nail a planeswalker, shines in the mirror match when the board is clogged with Mother, good against Eldrazi as it can also get around Eldrazi Displacer. And the dream is to remove Omniscience after dropping Canonist to it.


4. Is Cataclysm needed in SB? Is Gideon enough vs. Miracles; do I want Cata for other match-ups? i.e. lands or 12post or Shardless?

It's not needed, but it certainly is the greater bomb against Miracles compared to Gideon. Pretty much all of the Miracle experts (like Tomas Vlcek and Angelo Cadei) said, if you resolve Cataclysm at any point, you win. I only found it mediocre against Mentor heavy builds. If they can keep a land, a Top and a Mentorpost-Catalysm, they are usually good to go.


5. THC. I was running 3 in the main; then 2 in the main; now 0. I have no idea even after playing with her if I like her or not.

She's good but unnecessary. There are higher-impact cards.


6. Another deck purported to pop (and the cost is way down if you use Recruiter of the Guard) is Aluren; Revoker(mb) and Canonist(sb) seem like the best options. Is there anything else to include?

There is absolutely no reason to be afraid of Aluren. I have not played the matchup extensively, but these one or two times, I won. But more so because Aluren itself is pretty hard to resolve against DnT in general, so if you can out a lot of strain on their mana, you're good. And other than that there are probably tons of interaction possible with Revoker, Recruiter, Banisher Priest (possibly Leonin Relic Warder which I'd not recomment) and other shenanigans that I peobably can't really grasp right now.


7. Has anyone figured out a way yet to have a good/positive match-up vs. Eldrazi?

I think it already is.


8. Palace Jailer? Super expensive Banisher Priest? or great card for drawing cards and repeatable (i.e. flickerable) removal?

I am not convinced. It's certainly an interesting card to test against Miracles, Lands and the likes, but usually Banisher Priest is better just for curve reasons. There are also matchups where you can lose Monarch status pretty easily, especially against TNN where things start to backfire quickly.


9. Last, (the big one); do I include a small splash for either Magus and/or Pontiff. In a world of Shardless, Eldrazi, Lands,etc... Magus seems very appealing. And against Elves; TNNs and even the mirror.. Pontiff feels like he do good work.

The thing is that the deck itself doesn't really profit that much from such a splash. It's still soft to the usual suspects.

[mykatdied]

I am still not giant on the Lands match up now that they have tireless tracker and random molten vortex or seismic assault, plus tabernacle is still a very real card and then ghost quarter has become quite the annoying substitute for port. I will take Miracles and Shardless all day every day though.

[Nihils]

8. Palace Jailer? Super expensive Banisher Priest? or great card for drawing cards and repeatable (i.e. flickerable) removal?
High upside, slight risk card. Won't always be amazing, but when it is, it will be a game winner. I'm leaning towards not having it currently, though it has been good in testing.


What has you off Palace Jailer at the moment? Are you running Banisher Priest instead, either MD or SB?

[iatee]

There is absolutely no reason to be afraid of Aluren. I have not played the matchup extensively, but these one or two times, I won. But more so because Aluren itself is pretty hard to resolve against DnT in general, so if you can out a lot of strain on their mana, you're good. And other than that there are probably tons of interaction possible with Revoker, Recruiter, Banisher Priest (possibly Leonin Relic Warder which I'd not recomment) and other shenanigans that I peobably can't really grasp right now.


I've grinded out games vs a friend who picked it up some months back, and began to pick up on the patterns of why this isn't a great matchup. He's agreed and I don't think he's lost a tournament match to DnT so far.

Aluren:
Has plenty of basics +DRS, so it's harder to manascrew them
Is majority creature, so while Thalia doesn't do nothing, she's less effective than average
Has Decays for early Vials/Equipment
Plays value roadblocks like Baleful Strix and Leovold
Grinds well while threatening to draw into infinite combo at the same time

There's no way that's a great matchup. It's not unwinnable, sometimes you'll just get a Jitte on a Crusader, but it's not the type of deck you ever hope to see. Almost every opening 7 with their deck is going to have 2 cards that fit the description 'Strong vs DnT'.

[Marungo]

I've grinded out games vs a friend who picked it up some months back, and began to pick up on the patterns of why this isn't a great matchup. He's agreed and I don't think he's lost a tournament match to DnT so far.

Aluren:
Has plenty of basics +DRS, so it's harder to manascrew them
Is majority creature, so while Thalia doesn't do nothing, she's less effective than average
Has Decays for early Vials/Equipment
Plays value roadblocks like Baleful Strix and Leovold
Grinds well while threatening to draw into infinite combo at the same time

There's no way that's a great matchup. It's not unwinnable, sometimes you'll just get a Jitte on a Crusader, but it's not the type of deck you ever hope to see. Almost every opening 7 with their deck is going to have 2 cards that fit the description 'Strong vs DnT'.
I don't disagree that is may or may not be a bad matchup but if we're honest, Aluren is a weaker shardless BUG deck with a combo finish. So if you think all these cards are so dangerous or such an issue, do you identify shardless as a bad matchup? I see it as 50/50 so if we factor in the combo I wouldn't say Aluren is crushingly better against us. But to be fair I've only faced the deck two to three times. I won all 3 but that's a small sample size.

[Medea_]

@nihilis
I think I'll probably play it safe and run a Banisher Priest over it for the GP.

Regarding Aluren:
I generically view most creature-based combo decks (Elves, Aluren, Food Chain) as bad matchups. While we tend to have game against the fair portion, a resolved combo card (Natural Order, Food Chain, Aluren) probably means we lose on the spot.

[AsmodeusDM]

@nihilis
Regarding Aluren:
I generically view most creature-based combo decks (Elves, Aluren, Food Chain) as bad matchups. While we tend to have game against the fair portion, a resolved combo card (Natural Order, Food Chain, Aluren) probably means we lose on the spot.

I agree with this sentiment; I actually feel like Aluren is a pretty poor MU.

[Medea_]

I think I'm going to end up on something like this:

Lands
10 Plains
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
Creatures
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Serra Avenger
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Flickerwisp
1 Banisher Priest
2 Mirran Crusader

Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 AEther Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Sideboard
2 Path to Exile
1 Containment Priest
2 Surgical Extractions
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Council's Judgment
2 Rest in Peace
1 Pithing Needle
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Sword of War and Peace

This is about what I'm looking at. Obviously, there is a ton of room for debate on some of the numbers and choices, and I might even change my mind tonight.

Things I'm considering:
Banisher Priest vs Mangara (speed vs flexibility in a GP field)
4th Mom vs Sanctum Prelate 2 or Serra Avenger 2
One gravehate card vs Containment Priest 2

[Curby]

Seems solid, Medea. Are you going back up to 3 Karakas for RB Reanimator? Also, curious about the reason for running more Crusaders than Avengers? I think you were on 1 and 2 before.

EDIT: Whoops you mentioned maybe switching out mom for something else. Curious what led you to go up to 4 to begin with though. I thought you'd been on 3 in recent weeks?

[Medea_]

@kerbydsl

I did go up to three Karakas specifically because of RB Reanimator. I like playing two better, but I have to respect the recent popularity of that deck and the hype surrounding Sneak and Show.

I sort of have this feeling that BUG decks will perform well. Leovold has been seeing more and more play, so that cause me to flip flop the numbers on Crusader/Avenger.

I was on 3 Moms. I still sort of want to be on three Moms. Conversations with friends have left me on the fence on this issue.

[RobNC]

With BUG decks, and specifically Aluren, what's the best way to fight them? Leovold makes all removal and our mana denial feel bad (hello, Council's Judgment!), and I don't know the best way to respond to the Aluren combo. Most of the Recruiter-less builds are running 2 Parasitic Strix and 3-4 Cavern Harpy, which makes removing what used to be the sole copies of each less reliable.

[H]

With BUG decks, and specifically Aluren, what's the best way to fight them? Leovold makes all removal and our mana denial feel bad (hello, Council's Judgment!), and I don't know the best way to respond to the Aluren combo. Most of the Recruiter-less builds are running 2 Parasitic Strix and 3-4 Cavern Harpy, which makes removing what used to be the sole copies of each less reliable.

If I understand correctly, they still can't combo through an Ethersworn Canonist, right? So Canonist + Mom aught to be good.

[Nihils]

I think I'm going to end up on something like this:

Lands
10 Plains
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
Creatures
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Serra Avenger
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Flickerwisp
1 Banisher Priest
2 Mirran Crusader

Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 AEther Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Sideboard
2 Path to Exile
1 Containment Priest
2 Surgical Extractions
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Council's Judgment
2 Rest in Peace
1 Pithing Needle
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Sword of War and Peace

This is about what I'm looking at. Obviously, there is a ton of room for debate on some of the numbers and choices, and I might even change my mind tonight.

Things I'm considering:
Banisher Priest vs Mangara (speed vs flexibility in a GP field)
4th Mom vs Sanctum Prelate 2 or Serra Avenger 2
One gravehate card vs Containment Priest 2

I'm at:

-1 Mother of Runes
-1 Banisher Priest
+1 Serra Avenger
+1 Palace Jailer

-1 Sword of War and Peace
-2 Surgical Extraction
+1 Containment Priest
+2 Faerie Macabre

I don't think I want to go below 2 Avengers, esp since I don't know what leaving one accomplishes. Like the flying and the insulation to -1/1 effects. Wish I could fit one more Recruiter. Palace Jailer has me uneasy but my gut says to give it a go.

Surgical vs Faerie is my current head scratcher. Both have their obvious ups and down. Hate trying to hedge on those kinds of numbers... lol

[RobNC]

If I understand correctly, they still can't combo through an Ethersworn Canonist, right? So Canonist + Mom aught to be good.

That's correct, they can't combo out because Harpy is not an artifact.

The only version I've played against was the white Recruiter version and I had tried Canonist as well as Revoker naming Harpy, but they also run 3-4 Abrupt Decay and discard (the BUG version seems to favor Ponder instead of discard).

[AsmodeusDM]

Well Mom is a 3 or 4 of for a reason...I've found that Canonist or Revoker + Mom shuts the game out short of something like a TOxic Deluge

[Medea_]

@Nihils

I'm playing Surgical. I fought over the decision all week. Ultimately, I decided that if they have the T1 with Chancellor, they can have it. I want a sideboard card that is generically strong, and Surgical is that. I think there aren't a ton of situations where I'm really going to want to tutor for the gravehate (I've probably already locked it up if I'm at turn three safely). There are the fringe scenarios where Faerie is better (e.g. Faithless ->discard two fatties -> exhume), and I accept that.

The last few slots of the main are difficult. It really doesn't matter that much, but it sure feels like it does.

[Lexicon]

@Nihils

I'm playing Surgical. I fought over the decision all week. Ultimately, I decided that if they have the T1 with Chancellor, they can have it. I want a sideboard card that is generically strong, and Surgical is that. I think there aren't a ton of situations where I'm really going to want to tutor for the gravehate (I've probably already locked it up if I'm at turn three safely). There are the fringe scenarios where Faerie is better (e.g. Faithless ->discard two fatties -> exhume), and I accept that.

I have also been fighting over the choice. I agree that Surgical's strength is that it is generically strong, i.e. can be boarded in more matchups. Where else do you see yourself boarding it in? Lands? Miracles? When they miracle trigger the second terminus, extract the first from the grave - deny the draw, counter the spell. Or just STP.

Not that I have a lot of extra cards to board out against miracles. Here's my tentative plan:
-1 Jitte, -2 swords to plowshares (fewer or none if they are Lossett Legends? Maybe also keep 3 in against turbo mentor versions?), -1 (of 1) Serra Avenger, -2 or 3 Mother of Runes? Can't cut a land when you're bringing in gideon, cata, and you can't really mull in the matchup.
+ 1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, +2 Cataclysm, +1 Pithing Needle, +2 Council's Judgment, +1 Surgical Extraction

[Curby]

Ok, I just had a crazy thought, so can I confirm that Council's Judgment in the maindeck Banisher/Jailer/Mangara slot is sub-optimal? There are more and more Leovolds and TNNs running around. Mangara largely overlaps the target selection in a repeatable, uncounterable, and tutorable fashion, but at the cost of a turn. Judgment would be a compromise between the flexibility of Mangara and the quick(ish) effect of the Journey to Nowhere creatures. If you agree it's not the right call now, how skewed would a meta have to get to make maindeck Judgment viable?

[Stevestamopz]

I've probably already locked it up if I'm at turn three safely.

Wouldn't that make Faerie the better card then?

[Marungo]

I think I'm going to end up on something like this:

Lands
10 Plains
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
Creatures
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Serra Avenger
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Flickerwisp
1 Banisher Priest
2 Mirran Crusader

Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 AEther Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Sideboard
2 Path to Exile
1 Containment Priest
2 Surgical Extractions
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Council's Judgment
2 Rest in Peace
1 Pithing Needle
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Sword of War and Peace

This is about what I'm looking at. Obviously, there is a ton of room for debate on some of the numbers and choices, and I might even change my mind tonight.

Things I'm considering:
Banisher Priest vs Mangara (speed vs flexibility in a GP field)
4th Mom vs Sanctum Prelate 2 or Serra Avenger 2
One gravehate card vs Containment Priest 2

This is literally my list right now except I play 1 more avenger, no banisher priest, and sideboard swap the SoWaP for a 2nd prelate. Otherwise exactly the same

[gh0st_b1rd]

Sanctum Prelate turned Lands into a matchup I'd take over basically every other t1 deck.

Same but if we take make the MU a lock with freeroll includes in our deck I would definitely work towards trying to make Lands into a free win.

Who knows at the GP level, but at the local level players are already adapting to Prelate. It doesn't hurt to be one step ahead of their Crop Rotation for Barbarian nonsense.

[iatee]

Surgical vs Faerie is my current head scratcher. Both have their obvious ups and down. Hate trying to hedge on those kinds of numbers... lol

It seems like there's an obvious solution here - 1 Surgical, 1 Faerie. Having >0 Macabres is useful as they're a great Recruiter target, but Surgical is a generally stronger card.

[ThomasEnevoldsen]

If I was playing Louisville this weekend, I'd run this:

1 Cavern of Souls
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Karakas
10 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
26 CREATURES
1 Palace Jailer
4 Flickerwisp
2 Mirran Crusader
4 Mother of Runes
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Serra Avenger
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

SIDEBOARD
2 Containment Priest
2 Council's Judgment
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Path to Exile
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Rest in Peace

Good luck to anyone who is playing!

[shadowgripper]

I'll be playing this at Louisville as well. I wanted to add more flex cards to my sideboard, but having trouble deciding what to cut. The lack of experience I have makes it hard for me to completely understand the purpose of some cards. Assume I'm playing the list in the previous post:

Where are people bringing in Path to Exile? What's the reasoning behind "Man, I'm really glad I have these two paths in my sideboard right now." I feel like these are some of the least important cards and able to be excluded for more utility. Is this a terrible decision? Path's are a redundant inclusion, but I could be using those slots for two more 1-ofs to offer options throughout a GP.

[AsmodeusDM]

Thomas,

As the resident D&T Legacy GP master of the group I definitely am tempted to copy your list :D...

Couple of questions:

- Why only 1 recruiter? Seems like most people really love the "card draw" aspect of this card in a deck that struggles for card advantage.

- Continuing to advocate for Spirit. Why are you still up on this card? It's application is obvious but I worry that another x/1 isn't what the deck needs (and on the ground none of the less).

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Spirit will be good for this particular GP, as BRx Reanimator is supposed to be represented full-force. I still play 1x, and it serves its purpose.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[AsmodeusDM]

My main appeal to SoTL is that it's another 2 drop that does something disruptive right away (contrast with SFM). Being able to apply SOME disruptive element on turn 2 is a big deal for our deck.

[AsmodeusDM]

So I think I'm leaning towards this:

9 Plains
3 Karakas
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Horizon Canopy

4 Aether Vial
4 STP
1 Jitte
1 SOFI
1 Bskull

4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, GoT
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Sanctum Prelate
4 Flickerwisp
1 Palace Jailer

Sideboard:

2 Cpriests
2 Cjudgement
2 Canonist
2 Path to Exile
2 Gideon
2 RIP
1 Fmacabre
1 Cataclsym
1 Pithing Needle

[jwillingham]

Figured it would be a good exercise if we go through the common matchups and sideboarding. I'll be playing the following list at GP Louisville and just want thoughts on sideboarding. I've made a list of the common matchups. Would appreciate feedback. What do you take out and what do you bring in? If your sideboard tech isn't in my list, then let me know what your all-star is in the matchup.

1 Cavern of Souls
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Karakas
10 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

4 Flickerwisp
1 Mirran Crusader
4 Mother of Runes
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Sanctum Prelate
2 Serra Avenger
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

SIDEBOARD
2 Council's Judgment
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Faerie Macabre
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Path to Exile
2 Pithing Needle
2 Rest in Peace
1 Banisher Priest
1 Sword of War & Peace


Matchups


Miracles
Lands
BUG Shardless/Midrange
Eldrazi (I really struggle with this matchup. They always seem to have chalice on 1.)
Aggro Loam
Storm
Elves
Jund
Delver
Show and Tell
Infect
Reanimator
Burn
Stoneblade
Aluren

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Eldrazi:
+
1 banisher priest
2 PtE
2 CJ

-
2 MoR
2 Prelate
1 Thalia or 3rd MoR

This is how I board, and how many MoR I leave in is based on whether or not I believe they play Dismember. That's just what I do, though. I haven't a clue as to what is most accepted. The matchup certainly can feel weighted at the coinflip.

Edit: This is for colorless, I don't think banisher priest is as good if they play displacers, however you do have Revoker to tie it down if you can find it.

[Medea_]

My list is just off from TE's. Feels very solid and I recommend anything within a few cards of it. I've got Priest over Jailer and second Recruiter over SotL.

I'm wearing a pretty distinctive green cloak, so if you see me, feel free to pop by and say hi.

[Medea_]

Day 2 at 6-3 Lots of taxes in the room.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Good job, what's feeling good? Any choices you regret making/not making? Is there a lot of BRx Reanimator?

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[Mantis]

If I was playing Louisville this weekend, I'd run this:

1 Cavern of Souls
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Karakas
10 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
26 CREATURES
1 Palace Jailer
4 Flickerwisp
2 Mirran Crusader
4 Mother of Runes
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Serra Avenger
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

SIDEBOARD
2 Containment Priest
2 Council's Judgment
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Path to Exile
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Rest in Peace

Good luck to anyone who is playing!
Looks great, thanks. Could you provide a general sideboard guide against the top decks: Miracles, BUG Shardless, Eldrazi and Grixis Delver?

[Medea_]

I got 48th. Didn't lose day 2 at all. Will do a write up later.

[Nihils]

I got 48th. Didn't lose day 2 at all. Will do a write up later.

Congrats!

[RobNC]

Craig Wescoe thanked Thomas Enevoldson for his list that he made Top 8 with; I didn't check card for card but it looks pretty close to what Thomas posted on the previous page.

[LegacyIsAnEternalFormat]

I'm not really convinced Renegade Rallier does anything that the deck really needs. I just don't think the power level of this card is high enough to want to work with the conditions. If I'm playing green splash D&T, I'd rather have things like Teeg in my flex slots. If I'm playing Maverick, this is approximate in power level to Eternal Witness, and is probably not a reason to pick up the deck. I think the ideal situations are great, but the average situation might be pretty underwhelming.

I think you are highly underestimating this card. The more I think about it the better it gets. Now I have played the GW version with Noble Hierarch and THC before and that deck is quite good but I think this card would probably better fit a more tool box version of the GW deck with 3 recruiters and targets such as Gaddock Teeg, Qasali Pridemage and all the white targets we currently have. Anyways the way I thought about this card was that I imagined it with say, wasteland and thought, would a 3/2 Fulminator Mage that had to EtB instead of sac itself be good? Yes. Or say Serra Avenger, imagine if you had a card that was like serra avenger, but it costed 3 and also generated a 3/2 token, would that be good? Yes. Or say what if it there was ThaliaGoT but costed 1 more, had +1/+1 but without first strike? That sounds a lot like what you'd get if you brought back TGoT from the grave with this. This getting Umezawas would be like playing a Stoneforge Mystic with haste and activating it on that turn, except it would cost 1 less and be a 3/2. Other good targets that this can get would be stuff like QasaliPM, Gaddock Teeg, SFM(this would be like having a 3mana equipment tutor on a 3/2 but better), Mother of Runes, and more. Anyways I have presented a few decent analogies that might help you reach the point where I am in my evaluation of this card. Some other things this has going for it are that it's a human(good with cavern), it has great synergy with Flickerwisp, and the revolt would be quite easy to trigger in this deck with fetchlands, Horizon Canopy, Wasteland Karakas, QasaliPM, and others. if anything this should at least get a mention in the green splash section of your website(not saying you wouldnt add it if it werent for this comment but whatever).





Edit: sorry this needs a sac outlet to go inf with Saffi Eriksdotter so that part was taken out, I added the fact that it has good synergy with Flickerwisp and wasteland was added to the list of things that could trigger revolt

[WashableWater1]

Went 11-4 and ended up 63 overall at the GP. One thing I noticed is that True-Name is making a huge comeback. I normally find Delver pretty easy, but I lost to two draws that curved TNN into a Jitte. The same thing happened when I faced off against Reid Duke's list and got run over by Jitte.

If True-Name starts getting more popular, should we start adding more cards to deal with it? Am I overreacting to two losses?Councils Judgement was never enough for me to deal with it.


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[sheik80]

Looks great, thanks. Could you provide a general sideboard guide against the top decks: Miracles, BUG Shardless, Eldrazi and Grixis Delver?

I'm interested in this question too, expecially on SB plan against BUG variants. I'm running basically his exact 75, -1 SoTL +1 Recruiter, and i really struggle with my SB plan against BUG, mostly the Cascade version. I know i want to board in the 2 Gideon and possibly the 1 Rest in Peace, since everytime i managed to stick it against Deathrite/Goyf decks i always have a huge advantage, but i don't know what to cut: everything seems good in MD. What do you guys think?

[Mantis]

Craig Wescoe thanked Thomas Enevoldson for his list that he made Top 8 with; I didn't check card for card but it looks pretty close to what Thomas posted on the previous page.
It runs a second Recruiter over the second Mirran Crusader. I think this is defensible, especially considering the vast amount of Miracles and Sneak and Show in the Top 64.


Went 11-4 and ended up 63 overall at the GP. One thing I noticed is that True-Name is making a huge comeback. I normally find Delver pretty easy, but I lost to two draws that curved TNN into a Jitte. The same thing happened when I faced off against Reid Duke's list and got run over by Jitte.

If True-Name starts getting more popular, should we start adding more cards to deal with it? Am I overreacting to two losses?Councils Judgement was never enough for me to deal with it.


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It could be reasonable to play 2 Scrubland, go up to 2 Cavern of Souls and play a couple of fetchlands in order to fit in a singleton Orzhov Pontiff. Can be played through Vial and fetched with Recruiter. The cost of splashing seems fairly low and it is great against Elves, the mirror, Pyromancer and Infect. Could even be an acceptable way to slow down Monastery Mentor.

[Adan]

I've grinded out games vs a friend who picked it up some months back, and began to pick up on the patterns of why this isn't a great matchup. He's agreed and I don't think he's lost a tournament match to DnT so far.

Aluren:
Has plenty of basics +DRS, so it's harder to manascrew them
Is majority creature, so while Thalia doesn't do nothing, she's less effective than average
Has Decays for early Vials/Equipment
Plays value roadblocks like Baleful Strix and Leovold
Grinds well while threatening to draw into infinite combo at the same time

There's no way that's a great matchup. It's not unwinnable, sometimes you'll just get a Jitte on a Crusader, but it's not the type of deck you ever hope to see. Almost every opening 7 with their deck is going to have 2 cards that fit the description 'Strong vs DnT'.

Alright, if you say that I'll believe you. As I said, I only played it once and the only thing I got blown out by in one game was this Exploit guy that -1/-1s your whole board. But it might have been an out-dated list, I remember it was a 4colored one that played Imperial Recruiters and was easy to screw. Yesterday we had a fairly big event in Frankfurt (200ppl) and I've seen a few people playing BUG Aluren, and I must admit that deck is no joke. Especially this Glint-Nest Hawk can dig into Baleful Strix, Shardless Agents and this Strix that drains 2 life. Leovold is also an insane card per se and overall the deck is just full of insane value cards. And I am still trying to figure out how you can interact with Revokers when the opponent slams Aluren and tries to combo off. Perhaps Leonin Relic-Warder and/or War Priest of Thune can be fringe tools here (I'm not sure!)?

Either way I played DnT yesterday as well to a 5-2-1 finish, and fairly similar to Thomas' list that Craig Wescoe top8ed the GP with:

1 Cavern of Souls
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Karakas
10 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

1 Palace Jailer
4 Flickerwisp
1 Mirran Crusader
4 Mother of Runes
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Sanctum Prelate
2 Serra Avenger
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

SB

2 Containment Priest
2 Council's Judgment
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Sanctum Prelate
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Path to Exile
1 Pithing Needle
2 Rest in Peace

So in summary I had 2 Serra Avengers and no Spirit and in the SB a 2nd Prelate instead of a 2nd Faerie Macabre, 2 Rest in Peace instead of the 1/1 split with Relic.

My matchups were:

Burn 2-1
Grixis Delver 2-1
Death & Taxes 2-0
Grixis Delver 2-1
Elves 0-2
OmniSneak 0-2
Aggroloam 1-1-1
Grixis Delver 2-0

This is actually a quite acceptable resumee. Elves are still a nightmare, I was always dead on Turn 3 before I could connect with Jitte and my openers lacked Swords to Plowshares but were too good to ship. The Show and Tell guy went 3rd Turn SnT --> Omni --> Cunning Wish/Emrakul on me in g1/g2 respectively and there was not much I could do. He simply had perfect opening hands in both games, it was insane. And I could have won the match against Aggroloam, but game 1 slipped out of my hands very slowly and at one point I could not attack with a Batterskull'd creature anymore past 2 KotRs and Karakas and Maze. I just didn't notice that g1 took 30 minutes, I should have scooped early.

And on a sidenote, Palace Jailer looked like a terrible card on paper, but in reality it's just sick. The monarch ability alone won me 4 games single-handedly. And I definitely want to play more games with him, because he also turns Flickerwisps into hard removal. Overall I do think that the 4th mana is absolutely worth it as it is so much less fragile than Banisher Priest and at the same time is a tutorable single-card-engine. If you are good at combat math you won't lose the monarch status, the only cards where it could potentially backfire are Baleful Strix, True-Name Nemesis and Reality Smashers as well as surprise Snapcasters and token swarms of Young Pyromancer or Mentor. But as I said, I still have to play more, but on this particular event it really shined whenever I had it.

[jwillingham]

I played the following list this weekend to an unfortunate 5-3-1 finish Day 1.

1 Cavern of Souls
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Karakas
10 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

4 Flickerwisp
1 Mirran Crusader
4 Mother of Runes
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Sanctum Prelate
2 Serra Avenger
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

SIDEBOARD
2 Council's Judgment
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Faerie Macabre
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Cataclysm
2 Path to Exile
1 Pithing Needle
2 Rest in Peace
1 Banisher Priest
1 Sword of War & Peace

My matchups by round were:

Eldrazi (1-2)
Shardless (2-0)
Eldrazi (2-0)
Infect (1-2)
Shardless (1-1-1)
Miracles (2-1)
RUG Delver (2-1)
Lands (1-2)
Miracles (2-0)


My day started with a T1 chalice on 1 followed by three TKS in a row. Game 2 against eldrazi i was able to wassteland him off creatures and game 3 was similar to game 1. My opponent had never played legacy before, stating that he was borrowing the deck from a friend. He asked if I was playing "mono-white goblins". You heard that correct. Lol. Frustrating round 1 loss. My 1 draw with shardless was mostly due to my opponents slow play and the fact that he wastelanded me into oblivion games 1 & 2 which only slowed the game to a screeching halt until I was able to finish him with a Gideon. Im considering going up to 24 lands after this weekend. I had issues against opposing wasteland decks. I would have won game 3 but we went to turns and i was one turn short of winning (crusader + jitte) and he wanted the draw. The highlight of this match was I that I was able to 'get' my opponent with a council's judgement, which Medea_ got to witness because he was playing next to me. My opponent was an experienced player (even had beta duals), but he was confused by the card and eventually voted for something else, which caused him to lose both his permanents. I think in the past whenever the card had been played against him he always just exiled whatever the opposing D&T player named. Make sure to ask your opponent to vote for a permanent after letting them read the card, some people still don't actually know how it works. My loss to infect was just one of those games where you do everything right but its just not enough. He viridian corrupted my canonist game 3 and followed it with an inkmoth nexus. I was able to kill his corruptor and get a jitte down with sfm. Unfortunately he had 5 cards in his graveyard for a 1 mana become immense + berserk + vines protection to stop my path to exile the proceeding turn. Would have connected with jitte the following turn which would have been the game. My loss to lands was the most disappointing match of the weekend. I quickly won game 1 against him. Game 2 and 3 he dispatched my sword of fire ice and rest in peace with krosan grips. I never saw a recruiter or prelate games 2 and 3 and was inevitably killed by his 5th marit lage, which took at least 40 mins to assemble during game 3. Just drew the wrong half of my deck. I really needed the surgical extractions sb this game. Important to note in this matchup, he had a single barbarian ring in his maindeck to deal with sanctum prelates. He said he was 3-0 against D&T for the day because of the barbarian rings.

Overall notes:
I will be removing the Sword of War and Peace from the sb. I think i win about 95% of my matchups vs miracles, so this card seems unnecessary. I know its also good in the mirror, but I still fetch jitte first because it seems to define the game. I will be replacing faerie macabre with a surgical extraction. I didnt see any RB reanimator at any of my tables and extraction would have been much better in other matchups. Cataclysm was unnecessary. The two Gideons seemed to fill this role just fine. I will be adding palace jailer to my mb. I may move a prelate to the sb and up my plains count to 11. Losing to opposing wastelands feels bad (now i know how they feel).

One question i have for others is why include Spirit of the Labyrinth in your 75? I can't think of a single matchup where I'd search this up over a sanctum prelate on 1. For those playing it, what matchups are you actively searching this up for? Also the 1 toughness scares me. There are a lot of games where the opponent has a DRS, token, etc and I'd be unable to attack in.

[gh0st_b1rd]

How we usually deal with TNN is get rid of what TNN is enabling which is actually just equipment. I will probably put a Manic Vandal or Thraben Heretic back in to deal with opposing Jittes as my personal way to deal with TNN indirectly, but a Disenchant or 3rd Council's Judgment is also reasonable. Come to think of it, Council's Judgment is one of our most flexible cards in the sideboard and is surprising we havent bumped it up to 3 yet.

Personally I am liking the looks of the red splash more and more. Sudden Demise gives you a real way to deal with Leovold decks without losing value and those decks are only resistant to mana denial because it pressures them so slowly that they will inevitably turn the corner with basic lands vs monowhite while the red splash just drops a Magus of the Moon on the board and follows up with threats.

That being said, I am just an optimist. I will test the Aluren and misc. BUG midrange match ups and get back to you guys on that one.

[Medea_]

Remember, I got an on camera TNN and Jitte against Seth Manfield with Council's Judgement. The card will occasionally get people.

I loved Crusader two this weekend. Will write about why in detail later. In short, I got 3 1-hit KOs.

I still hate SotL.

I'll be talking about Jailer vs Banisher Priest in an article this week. Gathered a ton of data by talking with people this weekend.

[GrimoirePath]

I only played side events. Had Jailer mainboard, and he was at least decent. I will keep testing him out. I had two Recruiters mainboard, and honestly, almost never used them because other actions required priority. I might replace recruiters with something else, probably more beat down action.

I definitely saw a lot of TNN. Revoker on their equipment saved my ass, and flickerwisping out my revoker so I could equip my own equipment sealed the deal (he stuck a SofI, I revokered it, and then I drew into my own Sofi).

Prelate was great. I felt good with two mainboard. I kept two mainboard Mirran Crusaders and it felt right due to the large amount of Shardless and other BUG variants.

[FeX]

at the moment, i feel like playing less than 2 Mirran Crusader in your 75 might not be a good choice.

[rlesko]

at the moment, i feel like playing less than 2 Mirran Crusader in your 75 might not be a good choice.

Definitely second this. I started day 1 at 5-2 and ended up an unimpressive 5-4. I noticed a LOT of people playing darkblast so not having too many x/1's is important, and basically the only path to victory against BUG decks aside from randomly land-screwing them is crusader.

[Marungo]

I wanna test Jailer. Haven't played it at all and think it looks rather mediocre but always give something a shot before dismissing it. That being said, I can't play 10 3-4 mana guys. It's too much imo. Currently I got 4 flickerwisp, 2 recruiter, 1 crusader, 1 prelate, and 1 jailer, but I've run 2 crusader for a while and agree it feel a like the right number. So what are everyone's thoughts? Seems crazy to cut a flickerwisp but what else can be done?

[tarmogoat]

In the last 2 GP Top8 D&T lost to Miracles because they lost the monarch status. I don't think the card is good in the MU, as it's fairly easy for them to get a free attack and to control the board no matter how they order the play (get monarch first or control the board first), but especially if they terminus you and get back a creature off jailer the game ends on the spot. I'm not 100% convinced about Jailer, although in the last 2 GPs DnT proved the lists with him made it. I'm not sure how heavy the impact of Jailer was on their runs, but both lost as soon as they lost monarch status vs Miracles.
Yes, drawing an extra card vs miracles is neat, but it's very awkard when the tables are turned and miracles draws 2 cards a turn.

I guess we'll have to wait on Wescoe's report about the tournament to see what he has to say about Jailer.

[Curby]

I can see it being risky against Miracles, but if that's the only knock against it*, it's still just 1/60 and can be boarded out if it makes sense to not run in that MU. Did those T8 pilots you mentioned leave Jailer in against Miracles postboard?

* (I know there are other issues)

[tarmogoat]

I can see it being risky against Miracles, but if that's the only knock against it*, it's still just 1/60 and can be boarded out if it makes sense to not run in that MU. Did those T8 pilots you mentioned leave Jailer in against Miracles postboard?

* (I know there are other issues)

Yes, and both lost because they both lost monarch status. That was in the post as well :P

Wescoe:
https://s29.postimg.org/nmmj7qujr/Screenshot_1765_Jan_10_2017_14_38.jpg

The other guy is in coverage in YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwXvd-JmvJs

[gh0st_b1rd]

At the same time both DnT lists made top 8 with a Palace Jailer in the deck which means the card should actually be taken seriously. Its naive to dismiss the card as mediocre with such results being demonstrated.

Granted the card is obviously high variance because it gives your opponent tangible counterplay so there's that vs examples such as Miracles or decks with fliers.

I will test out Jailer soon but I suspect many who do dislike it (including me) only dislike it because it isnt deterministic.

[iatee]

I watched Craig Wescoe beat my friend on Miracles, with a monarch token drawing him a million cards. He had a Karakas in play - if it weren't for the Karakas, my friend's Clique would have stolen the crown and basically taken over the game. As far as I could tell he had sided out his STPs (he never drew into any after something like 10 draws) so that Karakas was really pulling its weight.

So yeah, it was super good there (beat a Jace on board) while also being super close to costing him the whole game.

[ChrisCunningham]

Hi friends; I'm new posting here although not new reading here.

I really recommend taking Jailer seriously; I played a very Jailer-heavy list (2 main and 1 side, supported by 4 Serra Avenger to try to always be winning combat once the game becomes all about combat) to 9-5-1 despite my many misplays at Louisville. It was better than Gideon in almost all non-miracles situations, and creates a similar gamestate as Gideon in the miracles matchup (the opponent must now start hitting me with combat damage or I will accrue unstoppable value). It's a huge tempo play in the mirror, turns the corner very quickly against Insectile Aberrations, and reads "draw a card per turn for the rest of the game" against Lands. It even carried me through the MUD match I played round 6. I didn't get to Show and Tell it in; didn't see that matchup. Most important is that it does something important against every opponent, even the ones where it isn't ideal, because it always warps the game to be more and more about creature combat, which is the part of the game we should always be winning.

---

One thing I wanted to correct was this misconception, which many of my opponents had as well:

> if they terminus you and get back a creature off jailer

This isn't actually a problem; they don't get the creature back until they become the monarch, so terminus doesn't actually hurt you at all until they cast another separate creature and hit you with it. Against miracles Jailer won one game for me then only lost the other when I failed to answer Clique and my opponent brought in Back to Basics to keep my Karakas down.

---

One question I have for all you who are more expert than me: Is Batterskull getting more and more disappointing for you every time you draw it or flip past it in your library? I feel honor-bound to keep it in the deck but it so rarely is doing anything for me at all that I wonder what common matchups you are deploying it in, besides Eldrazi or when you are racing TNN. I also understand that I must be quite clueless here because no one else really seems to consider cutting it and it's always been in the core of the deck. Thanks!

[Mantis]

For the past couple of years I have been allocating some of my spare time to creating a White Stompy deck that is similar to D&T, but with Chalice and Ancient Tomb instead of Vial and Port. The metagame seems particularly hostile to such a version, now that so few decks scoop to a Chalice at 1. Finally decided to switch to D&T and I have not regretted it for a second. I just love this deck, it's super skill intensive and thrives upon knowledge of the format. On the flipside, in games that are not decided by mana and tempo, the deck is very unforgiving and a mistimed Wasteland activation or play into Daze can easily cost you the game. Mother of Runes alone could be the subject of an entire book chapter: when do you attack with Mother, when do you block with it and provide protection etc. There is no rule of thumb and it's great to see whenever top players pick this deck up, they do well with it: Thomas Enevoldsen and Craig Wescoe are examples that spring to mind.

With the above in mind, I have to say I am pro Palace Jailer as a 1-of. This card is also extremely skill intensive as every subsequent attack and card that you play revolves around maintaining Monarch status. It already stole several games for me that I had no business winning. Conversely, if losing Monarch status would yield a loss in an otherwise won game, it seems very likely that the D&T player made one or more mistakes along the way. It should also be realized that the bad beats involving lost Monarch status, may have been lost games either way. I think the games where the D&T player does not make any mistakes, Palace Jailer will only very rarely end up losing you a game that Banisher Priest would have won. The other way around seems much more likely to me.

I haven't thought about or tested multiple copies of Jailer.

[Medea_]

Alrighty, here's my tournament report (http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?p=720) for my 48th place finish this weekend.

I wrote a bit about Palace Jailer in my article that I'm posting Friday, so I'll save my thoughts until then.

[dsquared]

Alrighty, here's my tournament report (http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?p=720) for my 48th place finish this weekend.

I wrote a bit about Palace Jailer in my article that I'm posting Friday, so I'll save my thoughts until then.

Grats Phil, you represented us well at the tourney. Sadly missed you at the event.

[iatee]

A resolved Palace Jailer vs a fair deck will generally either win you the game or lose you the game. It will win you the game more often, but you have to be willing to suck up those losses too.

I flamed out at the GP after starting 5-1. I wasn't super happy with my build and probably needed more white sources and maybe a 24th land. Got manascrewed a lot.

R1 (Bye) (Went 4-0 on Friday to almost get a second bye, but lost my 5th match to TNN+Jitte)
R2 Elves (Loss) (Demoralizing way to start the tournament, punished so hard for not getting that 2nd bye)
R3 Bug Delver (win)
R4 DnT (win) (He mentioned he read these boards / played well so it wasn't an easy matchup)
R5 DnT (win) (Wasn't as experienced with the deck)
R6 Lands (win) (Win g1 easily off Prelate, lose g2 to an unchecked Tireless Tracker, win g3 off Revoker for Vortex, Prelate on 2 + monarch token.)
R7 Legends Miracles (loss) Lost a very grindy g1 and we went to time after I Cataclysmed g2.
R8 Dredge (loss) Mulled to 5 g1, but not gonna win g1 vs Dredge on the draw, so I scooped and didn't show him what I was playing. Won g2 off Faerie Macabre, g3 I had it but he had Cabal Therapy and named Macabre + had a t3 kill.
R9 Shardless (loss) G1 I had double Vial on the draw, played the second one over a creature specifically to play around him having an Abrupt Decay - he had his one-of Pulse. Super wrecked. G2 I had a Mirran Crusader in hand all game and never drew a 3rd land over something like 7 turns.

Felt pretty unlucky to lose 3 fine-to-good matchups in a row. I might have made a few tiny mistakes vs Miracles but mostly played alright.

I think Reid Duke's TNN deck looks like an impossible matchup (t2 TNN or Leovold every game + Decay, Jittes + black sideboard cards). I just don't see how we ever beat that. I think everyone wanting to brew with Fatal Push and Leovold for the foreseeable future is going to put DnT in a kinda rough spot. I am probably more interested in going back to splash builds, specifically the black splash. If we're entering a TNN meta, maindeck Pontiff seems like where you want to be and Kambal is another form of damage through a TNN wall. I actually was tempted to play it in the main event, I just forgot to bring Scrublands.

[AsmodeusDM]

Nice run Phil!

Sorry I didn't get a chance to chat with you at the event.

(aside: I'm from Cleveland and drove down to the event,6.5hrs, Friday night. With two friends and meeting a third coming in from Indy. I was providing two of my friends, including the Indy one, with decks: D&T (me), Eldrazi and UB Reanimator. Alas... Friday night I discovered to my never-ending horror that I had forgotten to put the decks in my overnight bag... so yeah I not only screwed over myself but 2 friends who also made the drive. So needless to say I drank a lot of BOURBON instead of playing Magic :( )


Anyway, on Saturday I did head down to the event and saw lots of folks on D&T as you mentioned. Not to be mean: but after observing about 5 different matches from between 5 to 10 minutes I couldn't believe how BAD most of these D&T players were. It's a shame that so many player pick up the deck which leads to the decision to play enough sideboard hate out of our competitors.

As for Reid's deck: I feel like it's probably critical to land a turn 1 swords on the dork to avoid getting such a strong 3drop play on turn2. The deck doesn't really have many 2-drop plays and feels like it's probably beatable if you can use removal + lands to get them off of 3/4 mana. I agree though that the particular "threat" package of TNN, Leo, and Jace lines up pretty nasty against D&T :(

[AsmodeusDM]

Ugg just saw Reid had 2 dread of nights and a 2nd jitte in his sideboard.

GROSS.

[iatee]

The Dreads seem like curious choices to me because I see no way that we reliably beat this deck's main, so why even worry about DnT? Also good against Mentors, but that's usually not their main purpose.

Post-board that BUG deck is not even too soft to RiP since it only plays one Goyf. It's possible we would have games where we stall their 3 drop with a STP or Revoker, but that doesn't solve the bigger problem. Plus, I imagine post-AR this deck would replace the Cut with a Fatal Push, and maybe even play additional copies.

(People could also just not end up playing this deck at all.)

[Medea_]

@Iatee

I just wrote up a giant article about the deck moving forward that I'm going to push out Friday, and you ended up saying a bunch of the same things I had in mind.