[Deck] Death and Taxes

[iatee]

https://image.ibb.co/kQVvov/c_priest.gif

[AsmodeusDM]

The interesting thing about Ancient TOmb is whether he's using it to go bigger (4+ drops) or faster (3 drops on T2).

I've long believed that being able to deploy disruptive threats in D&T on T1 and T2 is worth the pain. I always leaned on Chrome Mox to be able to play T1 Thalias/Revokers or T2 Prelates, THCs, etc.

The problem is that ramping to a beater (like mirran crusader) isn't that big of a deal; so you end up with a highly disruptive deck that doesn't have a lot of teeth and is slow to close out games.

[Minniehajj]

Thomas Enevoldsen just posted a 5-0 on MTGO from yesterday, now that Palace Jailer is on MTGO. It's really interesting, to say the least. The posted list is missing a 15th Sideboard card.

For the record, he is "Scabs" on mtgo.

Creatura (26)
4 Flickerwisp
4 Mother of Runes
2 Palace Jailer
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Vryn Wingmare
Istantaneo (4)
4 Swords to Plowshares
Artefatto (3)
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Terra (23)
2 Ancient Tomb
1 Eiganjo Castle
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Karakas
8 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
ALTRI (4)
4 Aether Vial
60 Carte
Sideboard (14)
1 Palace Jailer
2 Containment Priest
2 Council's Judgment
1 Dismember
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Path to Exile
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Rest in Peace

I am by no means an expert on DnT, but this list strikes me as really interesting in a lot of points and bears a lot of resemblance, at least in theory, to the concepts of "Thalia Stompy". Figured it'd be great to open up discussion here.

[iatee]

I don't really see the point of 2 Ancient Tombs. You'd see them in 1/5 hands - less than once a match. And your opening hand is generally where sol lands provide their real advantage. 1/5 games doesn't give you a reliable plan, it just means once in a while you'll have a turbocharged hand that does a lot of damage to you. If the strategy is strong, it's strong enough to go deep on. I don't think it's a coincidence that decks tend to play a lot of sol lands or none at all. Unlike other stompy decks, you don't play t1 lockpieces like Chalice (or Blood Moon) - t1 Revoker is strong, but Tomb+Chalice straight up wins the game against a lot of legacy.

[gh0st_b1rd]

Playing Sol Lands in this deck is close enough in comparison as to why a deck like Omni-Tell plays Sol Lands: because its there to fix small problems inherent in the archetype's play pattern. It just so happens that powering out a turn 2 SnT is a benefit as well. With DnT the benefit is smaller but it could also mean it speeds the deck enough that playing Thalia, Heretic Cathar or Vryn's Wingmare on turn 2 is good enough and that having those same said Tombs helps you cast non-creature spells under simultaneous Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and Wingmare.

When I played monowhite I had similar sentiments and often contemplated trying out Ancient Tombs. Of course playing like this does nothing does nothing to make you resilient towards post-board hate and diverse handling of axes from the opponent.

If there is one thing I want to see cut from this decklist it will probably be the Wingmares. If they had been 1/2 fliers I would have been ecstatic of their inclusion.

[Barook]

I'm pretty suprised by

a) the complete absence of Recruiter and
b) him going all-in on Jailer with 3 copies in his 75.

[Elpresidente]

I'd guess that since he has the one dismember, its either one of a second gideon, another way to remove enchantments or artifacts, or another grave hate piece

[Medea_]

I'm most surprised about the lack of Cavern in this Miracles-dominated world. His list also is really pushing it as far as white sources go, hence fewer WW cards like Prelate and Crusader. I'm not a huge fan of the list conceptually, but I understand the decisions made in deckbuilding. I know I'm always about it, but I also would really like SoWaP in the main of that deck, since it has the power to hit with it a turn earlier.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

He should drop one of the Jailers for a Hero of Bladehold. I think if you can spend 4 mana on something that generates card advantage, perhaps in a deck like this you should use something that wins the game quickly and then you won't have to worry about helping your opponent.

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[autonom]

Have any of you considered using good old Chalice of the Void in the sideboard. I'm thinking it would be very nice against Elves and burn specifically and also miracles, all combo decks and maybe against loam decks on 2.

It lands earlier than prelate and stops creatures as well but on the downside has no body to attack with.

[Medea_]

I've used Chalice as a tutor target before. It was okay, but it feels better in decks with SOL lands.

[MD.Ghost]

Played against the Enevoldsen-List yesterday with "Thalia Stompy" and won 2:1 - he won game 1 thanks to a fast tomb and jailer, but overall he told me that he disliked the build - our other games clearly showed, that without the random Tombs the deck is really clunky and Thalia Stompy does the same thing way superior if you want to ramp into high cc stuff to gain early advantage.

As we already discussed: cards like Thalia HC are quite good if played turn 1-2, if you followed this path you will also like to drop something like thalia or stoneforge turn 1, heck even chalice sounds good. Porting around might be one of the nice things for DnT, but if you already test tombs, you can replace the colorless ports with eldrazi temple and play some hard hitters that don't need equipment to be a threat.

[Curby]

Have any of you considered using good old Chalice of the Void in the sideboard. I'm thinking it would be very nice against Elves and burn specifically and also miracles, all combo decks and maybe against loam decks on 2.

Don't Prelate (loam, burn, elves, miracles, combo) and Canonist (burn, elves, miracles, combo) do these jobs better, while simultaneously being tutorable and protectable with equipment and Mom?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

So I'm wondering what the correct way to board vs. the mirror is, as well as against Shardless and Miracles. Since BR Reanimator has dropped off (at least regionally), I've dropped both moxen from the 75, strictly stock now.

My list and board:

4x Mom
4x TGT
3x Revoker
4x SFM
1x Mangara
1x Sanctum Prelate
2x Mirran Crusader
3x Recruiter
4x Flickerwisp

1x SoFI
1x Jitte
1x SoWP
4x StP
4x Vial

4x Wasteland
4x Port
3x Karakas
2x Cavern
1x Canopy
9x Plains

Board
2x Canonist
2x Containment Priest
1x Spirit of the Labyrinth
1x Fiendslayer Paladin
1x Prelate
2x PtE
2x RIP
2x CJ
1x Batterskull

The only thing I prefer to the way I have it is maybe a Manriki for a mirror breaker or a single Gideon, or possibly a Cataclysm.

Unsure as I rarely play the DnT mirror and feel like it will be tough. When I have played it, it felt weird as hell. Words of wisdom?

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[autonom]

Don't Prelate (loam, burn, elves, miracles, combo) and Canonist (burn, elves, miracles, combo) do these jobs better, while simultaneously being tutorable and protectable with equipment and Mom?

I dont know if chalice is worth playing. I think in general, the strength of each card disregarding tutors ans sol lands is:

vs burn Chalice > Canonist > Prelate as they have few answers to chalice and chalice stops goblin guide, swiftspear and lavamancer

vs elves Chalice > Canonist > Prelate as Chalice stops almosr all their creatures

vs miracles Chalice > Prelate as they have fewer outs to Chalice and they wont ever 2-for-1 Chalice (terminus)

vs combo in general Canonist > Prelate > Chalice as having a body to attack with is very important

I would board in chalice in all those matchups if I had it in my sideboard

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I dont know if chalice is worth playing. I think in general, the strength of each card disregarding tutors ans sol lands is:

vs burn Chalice > Canonist > Prelate as they have few answers to chalice and chalice stops goblin guide, swiftspear and lavamancer

vs elves Chalice > Canonist > Prelate as Chalice stops almosr all their creatures

vs miracles Chalice > Prelate as they have fewer outs to Chalice and they wont ever 2-for-1 Chalice (terminus)


First, as iatee has often pointed out, if you want to shore up the burn matchup, you should play Aegis of Honor. Savage tech. Also, doesn't turn off your own lifegain spell, which is nice. I use Sword of War and Peace, Batterskull, and a Fiendslayer Paladin. Honestly, even CoP: Red is, imo, better than chalice here.

Second, elves is such a bad matchup that I don't care to try to shore it up. Honestly, that's how bad it has been for me. I'm just glad I never see it in my local meta.

Lastly, vs. Miracles, Prelate is one of my two plans of beating them. It's strong and pairs well with Recruiter plus Flickerwisp, which is the other half of the way to win. You get Sword of War and Peace on the field, resolve Prelate on 6 and equip. If mom is on the field, even Jace can't save them. If they play a Council's Judgment, it's their only out.

Having said all those wonderful things about SoWP, I can't help but be a bit curious as to how Sword of Light and Shadow would do. It's still protection from StP, but also from Push and Angler, still gains life but also can get back a critter, which often in this deck is like drawing a card. Anyone have any previous experience with this?

[iatee]

Unsure as I rarely play the DnT mirror and feel like it will be tough. When I have played it, it felt weird as hell. Words of wisdom?
k

With your list:

-4 Thalia -1 Prelate
+Batterskull, 2 CJ, 2 PtE

4 equip is a bit awkward but still fine and better than the other stuff.

The mirror is super unfun, it pretty much goes in one of two directions:

a. Somebody gets Jitte online quickly and runs over the other guy. (You should aim to be this guy.)
b. That doesn't happen, a million Revokers and Moms and Ports create some deadlock and the game goes 30 turns before someone draws the right pieces to get out of it.

Truthfully, I think if both players are very good there's not that much room for outplaying your opponent and you just have to draw better and be the dude with Aether Vial, more STPs, more sideboard cards. Most DnT players aren't very good however, so you just beat them because you Karakas the Thalia they left in their deck g2, they inexplicably don't Port you, and then they draw another Thalia.

[CptHaddock]

With your list:

-4 Thalia -1 Prelate
+Batterskull, 2 CJ, 2 PtE

4 equip is a bit awkward but still fine and better than the other stuff.

The mirror is super unfun, it pretty much goes in one of two directions:

a. Somebody gets Jitte online quickly and runs over the other guy. (You should aim to be this guy.)
b. That doesn't happen, a million Revokers and Moms and Ports create some deadlock and the game goes 30 turns before someone draws the right pieces to get out of it.

Truthfully, I think if both players are very good there's not that much room for outplaying your opponent and you just have to draw better and be the dude with Aether Vial, more STPs, more sideboard cards. Most DnT players aren't very good however, so you just beat them because you Karakas the Thalia they left in their deck g2, they inexplicably don't Port you, and then they draw another Thalia.

But dude she has first strike. Everyone knows how good that is in combat right? /s

[Medea_]

@Secretly.A.Bee

Here's the link (http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?page_id=17) to my matchups page. I talk about sideboarding for all of them towards the end of each page.

Thoughts on SoLaS:

"This is a card that I like in theory, but I’ve disliked in practice. The protection from white is relevant, as is the ability to recur creatures. The issue is that actually getting creatures back doesn’t happen. In many of the grindy matchups where this card would be good, the removal of choice is Swords to Plowshares and/or you are boarding in Rest in Peace. That means that in practice, this sword’s trigger is only gaining you three life."

[gh0st_b1rd]

Thalia, Guardian of Thraben's only real compensation after board in the mirror is bouncing her with Karakas in the face of a ground creature with an equipped Jitte.

Totally did that in the mirror when I was inexperienced and won a game because he couldnt draw an Avenger or Wisp to save his life and my Revoker was on Mom.

With the inclusion of Recruiters nobody should ever keep Thalia, Guardian of Thraben post-board in the mirror.

[RobNC]

Thalia, Guardian of Thraben's only real compensation after board in the mirror is bouncing her with Karakas in the face of a ground creature with an equipped Jitte.

Totally did that in the mirror when I was inexperienced and won a game because he couldnt draw an Avenger or Wisp to save his life and my Revoker was on Mom.

With the inclusion of Recruiters nobody should ever keep Thalia, Guardian of Thraben post-board in the mirror.

That's an upside, but it's also extremely likely your opponent bounces her with their own Karakas and you can't block at all. Chances are you are both running 3x Karakas.

The D&T mirror is one of the most stressful mirrors I've ever played in Legacy. Shutting down their stuff usually shuts down your own, too. It's non-stop topdeck mode.

[gh0st_b1rd]

I actually really enjoy playing the mirror. It might be a tactile thing. I love board stalls where both out assets have dumbed down to being for the most part, blank cards.

Also if you want to beat the mirror, chances are the 2nd color splashes alone will win the mirror match for you. Pontiff and Cunning Sparkmage are both very powerful.

[Irvin]

I went 7-2 in the Legacy Eternal Weekend in Parijs and ended up 30th.
Lost to Storm and UR delver

Last minut i changed a 2th crusader for a 2th Thalia HC thanks to a friend of mine
I was verry pleased with this change, Thalia HC does allot of work in other matchups where crusader is only a beater.

This is the deck i piloted.

Maindeck
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Karakas
9 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

4 Flickerwisp
3 Mother of Runes
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Thalia, HC
2 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Sanctum Prelate
2 Serra Avenger
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Mirran crusader

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Rest in Peace
1 Sanctum prelate
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Sword of war and piece
2 Cataclysm
2 Council's Judgment
1 Path to exile
1 Blessed alliance
1 pithing needle
1 Faerie Macabre

[Sandro95]

Hello everyone, Goblins player here. I recently wrote an article about playing with Aether Vial, and thought it might be of interest to you too.
Let me know what you think. I hope you enjoy it!

Playing with Aether Vial (http://www.hipstersofthecoast.com/2017/04/playing-aether-vial/)

[AsmodeusDM]

Current list is pretty standard (all the usual stuff and then 2 recruiters, 1 prelate, 2 avengers, 2 crusaders... also using SoWaP in main over BSkull)

Sideboard:

2 Path to Exile
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Rest in Peace
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Council's Judgement
1 Pithing Needle
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Containment Priest
1 Batterskull
1 Sanctum Prelate


True-Name BUG has been picking up popularity in my local meta... Lost in the final round of a 5-round Legacy FNM on friday to such deck.... the guy coudlnt' find Dread of Nights so he ran Massacres instead... seemed real bad given his deck full of x/1's and x/2's, but it worked out for him.

Anyways. Here's how I've been siding.


+2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
+2 Council's Judgement
+1 Batterskull

-1 Mother of Runes
-2 Swords to Plowshares
-1 Sanctum Prelate
-1 Sword of War and Peace


My thought process is:
- Gideon's modes are all good vs. a dread to night or rebuilding after a deluge; he also can't be abrupt decay'd
- CJudgement is my only answer to TNN
- BSkull is an improvement over the useless SoWaP and is a threat that's strong against aforementioned Dread of Night and can help race TNNs

- Mom doesn't save my creatures from dread of nights or massacres or deluges.. and doesn't help block TNN anyways.
- STP can hit the mana dorks, but doesn't interact with TNN, and draws them a card with Leovold
- Prelate... the have so many varied mana costs and just a ton of creatures anyways
- SoWAP: pretty much a dead card.


Opinions on this general sideboarding strategy?

Different on play/draw? I feel like I'd almost ALMOST rather have some of the Plows back on the draw to be able to disrupt a turn1 mana dork. (whereas when I'm on the play I should be able to play a revoker or thalia before they get to untap with potentially 3 mana).

[iatee]

Assuming they're playing a Reid Duke style list, I like taking out Thalias. Opponent's playing mana acceleration, you're not and you're now trying to cast Council's Judgment and Gideon.

[Emurian]

vs BUG I tend to keep all my STP's and add Path to Exile's if I have them in my SB. [Most lists I run into don't play basics so PtE is better then STP in those matches.]

My reasoning is this: BUG players tend to deploy a single threath and then try to protect it with spells. Thus if you remove their beater early on [Delver or Goyf] it buys you time as they will try to cantrip into another threath.

TNN is a problem, but as long as there's no equipment on it you can opt to race it with Serra Avengers. Any creature of yours with a sword should equal the race.

I also board in RIP's vs BUG [no enlightened tutors if I tend to run them SB as im not that dedicated to get the card, but if it comes along thats fine.] It keeps their biggest beater in check [Goyf] and turns off their DRS. Gurmag Angler is also a card they tend to play in my shop, so keeping their GY clean has its merits. [RIP can easily replace a Revoker in your deck as their goal is more or less the same]

[AsmodeusDM]

Assuming they're playing a Reid Duke style list, I like taking out Thalias. Opponent's playing mana acceleration, you're not and you're now trying to cast Council's Judgment and Gideon.

Thalia out with Gideon in hand did come up; this is an excellent point.

[RobNC]

I would keep SoWaP in against BUG. Doesn't offer protection, but the lifegain (and additional drain) can help you race, or at the very least keep up.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I would keep SoWaP in against BUG. Doesn't offer protection, but the lifegain (and additional drain) can help you race, or at the very least keep up.
Agreed. It's my belief that any equipment on a Mirran Crusader in a bug matchup is the best way to go. Try to make them want to use a Decay or two first if you can, and win asap.

[iatee]

Jitte and Batterskull help you race. Sofi helps you get dudes past TNN. SoWaP helps you...race if you already ran out of your better equipment and also have a flyer? When you have to come up with these super specific situations for a card to be good, it's probably not gonna be good that often.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

The lifegain has negated a TNN for me more than once. Finding a flyer isn't that hard, paired with a Mirran in the BUG matchup, the protection from SoWP doesn't matter unless they have a TNN down, and then it doesn't matter unless they hold back for blocking, creating board parity. Every equip besides a Batterskull (and even then still the Germ) dies to Decay, so that's pretty irrelevant. I may be incorrect, but so far I don't think so.

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[infiniteJ]

Played against the Enevoldsen-List yesterday with "Thalia Stompy" and won 2:1 - he won game 1 thanks to a fast tomb and jailer, but overall he told me that he disliked the build - our other games clearly showed, that without the random Tombs the deck is really clunky and Thalia Stompy does the same thing way superior if you want to ramp into high cc stuff to gain early advantage.

As we already discussed: cards like Thalia HC are quite good if played turn 1-2, if you followed this path you will also like to drop something like thalia or stoneforge turn 1, heck even chalice sounds good. Porting around might be one of the nice things for DnT, but if you already test tombs, you can replace the colorless ports with eldrazi temple and play some hard hitters that don't need equipment to be a threat.

I played the list last week for four rounds and then some casual games, so small sample size, but I really liked the ancient tombs. T1 vial + relic came up, as did t3 double port. The extra mana was almost never a waste and the life loss was not as important as the extra mana. It certainly helped with equipping creatures. I ran a recruiter and an eldrazi displacer over vryn wingmare though. Still a fan of THC, personally. Jailer was either insane or awful and I'm not sure about it.

[Medea_]

SoWaP comes out against BUG decks.

Displacer plus Jailer is the level of jank I could get behind in an Ancient Tomb shell. 10/10, would play for giggles.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

SoWaP comes out against BUG decks.

Displacer plus Jailer is the level of jank I could get behind in an Ancient Tomb shell. 10/10, would play for giggles.
That's not quite the quality post we're used to getting from you. A declarative statement should at least have a tiny bit of reasoning to go with it.

[Stevestamopz]

Jitte and Batterskull help you race. Sofi helps you get dudes past TNN. SoWaP helps you...race if you already ran out of your better equipment and also have a flyer? When you have to come up with these super specific situations for a card to be good, it's probably not gonna be good that often.

^
Could not agree more.

I think you guys are over-valuing True-Name's effectiveness against DnT. It takes two True-Names to beat a lone Batterskull. One connection with a Jitte negates an entire True-Name attack. I know you all know this, but it seems like you are forgetting that TNN is only a 3/1 at the end of the day.

[RobNC]

I played in a 12 person GPT yesterday. 4 of us played D&T, and 3 of us got into the Top 4; 2 of us were running SOWAP and it was an absolute beast.

Other decks were RUG/UR Delver, BG Depths, and BUG variants. My sideboard was expecting BUG and various graveyard combos. General consensus was everyone at the event had a useless half of the sideboard because the meta was not as expected.

//Maindeck (60)
4 Mother of Runes
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Serra Avenger
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Sanctum Prelate
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of War and Peace
2 Cavern of Souls
3 Karakas
10 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

//Sideboard (15)
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Path to Exile
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Council's Judgment
1 Batterskull
2 Rest in Peace


Round 1: WBUG Aluren
G1: Opponent was struggling to keep up, especially after I drew Mirran Crusader. He cast Shardless Agent, cascading away Aluren a few cards down and never saw another.
G2: Opponent was stuck on mana and I punished him for it. Naturally drew two Crusaders over the course of three turns and he had nothing left but a Swamp (which I Ported).
1-0

Round 2: UR Delver with RUG transformational sideboard
G1: He has a slower than expected hand and doesn't put much pressure on. He drops a Pyromancer, I get a Jitte online and chip away easily.
G2: I sideboard for lifegain and am greeted with Nimble Mongoose. Opponent has an incredibly slow start and throws burn at my face instead of taking care of my creatures like SFM which should've been bolted on sight. I end up getting a SoWaP on a creature, so while I take hits from 2x Mongoose I just gain the life back next turn. He drops a Hooting Mandrills, but unfortunately for him the Mongoose left a lot of removal stuck in my hand and I Plow it immediately to win two turns later.
2-0

Round 3: D&T against the eventual winner. Probably the best D&T player I know.
G1: He crushes me with SoWaP.
G2: He gets stuck on mana and I punish him for it.
G3: I have enough for a perfect curve but miss a Vial trigger one turn which screws up my entire game plan. He buries me as a result. Don't know if I could have won if I was able to cast & Vial on curve as intended but the game certainly would've gone much longer.
2-1

Round 4: D&T again.
G1: Opponent gets a ton of Moms out and one Crusader and prevents me from doing much of anything to his stuff. Eventually I get a Jitte online and snipe his board away.
G2: Opponent once again draws almost nothing but Plows and Moms. We end up having a little bit of a Flickerwisp and Vial battle until I get SOWAP online, then win shortly after.
3-1

Round 5: BG Depths. Opponent is out of contention for prizes and he offers to concede to me under the condition that I still play some games.
G1: He probably would've combo'd T3 but I played a T2 revoker on Vampire Hexmage. I left an untapped Karakas out most of the game. I think he ends up comboing me out anyways because I drew nothing but lands for many turns (I had all 4 Ports out!)
G2: I drop T1 Karakas again and do nothing for a while as my deck keeps not cooperating. Eventually I get out a Serra Avenger and Crusader, Wasteland at the appropriate time when he tries to copy with Stage, and beat him down.
G3: Opponent tries to combo on his T3. End of turn I Surgical his Dark Depths and cross my fingers because I have no other outs. My turn I top deck Path To Exile, cast it and opponent scoops. Luckiest topdeck I've ever had.

Top 4: D&T (same as Round 3 opponent).
G1: He crushes me.
G2: I crush him:
G3: This one goes very long. I get him down to 3 and I'm very convinced I have it in the bag despite not seeing any SFM or equipment. He gets a Batterskull which buys himself a turn. That turn allows him to start using Flickerwisps to mess with my board, before getting Jitte to snipe my board, and eventually a SOFI to continue chipping away. I was blown away how he was able to claw back, but equipment stole the game.



I had tons of fun and I'm very confident in my list for SCG Worcester next weekend. I'm tempted to cut Sanctum Prelate for a third Mirran Crusader, but I feel like in a wide open meta she may end up being some use even if she hasn't been any help locally. Sideboard feels great, and I like Surgicals over Faerie Macabres as they have much more use despite not being tutorable.

[Medea_]

@Secretly.A.Bee
Ouch, called out hard. Iatee said the main points, and my intention was just to support him, but I'll reiterate.

SoWaP comes out against BUG decks because it is the last piece of equipment you would conceivably fetch. It doesn't help you go toe-to-toe with their creatures in the same way that Jitte or SoFaI does, it does not have relevant protection, it does not let you grind out a game like Batterskull, and it has less of an impact than most of our other sideboard cards. It's not like I'm sad to see it in game 1, but we tend to have a fair number of cards to bring in for the BUG matchups despite already having a pretty solid maindeck; the cuts need to come somewhere.

Yes, Mirran Crusader plus equipment is a great line to victory. That being said, if your Jitte and SoFaI have already been dealt with, why isn't your opponent just dead to the Mirran Crusader that they can't get off the board? If the answer is TNN, SoWaP isn't helping there either. In the long game, where you actually did have your other pieces of equipment destroyed, both you and your opponent are likely hellbent (or close to it). The trigger won't be doing you much good in those situations.

@RobNC
SoWaP is love. SoWaP is life.

On a serious note, your list seems fine. Take some notes and write up a good report for us; Worcester is like 10 hours for me, so I'm not going to make it. I'd cut Avenger #2 before I'd cut Prelate #1 (I'm on 3 Crusaders myself).

Prelate is really important as a tutor target. Prelate really shores up a ton of the weird matchups (e.g. Aluren), and not having access to at least one in the 75 seems loose. It doesn't seem great in your metagame full of D&T, but in a field of Miracles and other popular decks, it's strong.

Agreed on Surgical over Faerie; I like the more generically useful card over Faerie, which only excels vs RB Reanimator.

[Warden]

I have no intention to play at Worchester, but if I did bring a list I'd 100% run Armageddon in the sideboard (I think it's very underrated/under appreciated right now).
I also think Sword of Body & Mind warrants a discussion. IIRC, @Medea_ flirted it as a meta call in recent articles. I see it as a trump card against all these DRS/TNN/Delver lists.

[Medea_]

Okay, I had a ton of espresso and can't sleep, so I'm going to finally articulate something I've been thinking on for a while. I think our sideboard has room for improvement. I've been wanting to address it since R/B Reanimator started declining, but I haven't been able to quite put my finger on what needs to change. I think opposing decks are currently divided into about four categories right now:

1. Miracles. Comes in a few different flavors; all of them are good. Recently we've seen a shift towards more Predicts as a necessity for fighting the decks in category 2.

2. Various 3-4 color decks featuring Abrupt Decay and Baleful Strix that try to grind out Miracles and other decks in this category. These range from tempo decks (3-4 color "Delver"), to control decks (Shardless, Team America), to combo decks (Food Chain, Aluren).

3. Various decks that attack BUG decks (ANT, Burn, Show and Tell, Blood Moon decks). These decks try to beat the BUG decks before they can get established. This can either mean literally winning the game via fast combo with some backup, or by turning greedy manabases against themselves (Blood Moon, Price of Progress).

4. Various decks that are doing something powerful while being a touch tricky to interact with (Elves, Infect, Eldrazi, Lands).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So the following decks are on my personal, "I'm expecting this matchup" list, in rough order of importance:

Miracles
BUG Decks (Shardless, Team America, BUG Delver, 4c Delver, Food Chain, Aluren)
D&T
Burn
ANT
Elves
Show and Tell
Lands
Eldrazi
Infect

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Surgical Extraction seems really poor against this field. It's amazing against Lands and playable against ANT. R/B and other reanimator decks are on a decline; there's just so much incidental hate around in the form of DRS that it's just not a good time to mucking around in graveyards. Can these slots be better utilized? Would we want something like another Containment Priest or RiP over one of these? Is Containment Priest even pulling its weight? Are there other pieces of early interaction that might be better?

I've also been on the fence about trying the deck without Batterskull. I've kept it in there out of fear of the Eldrazi matchup and due to its unique effect, but I do wonder if I can get by without it. Again, I haven't pulled the trigger on this, but I'm willing to discuss it.

I've also been wondering if we can adjust things by finding cards that overlap well with commons matchups. At what point do we start experimenting with cards like Mindbreak Trap for the ANT matchup since it also happens to cover Food Chain, Aluren, and Elves? Is something like Leyline of Sanctity or Aegis of the Gods fine as something that can overlap with ANT and Burn? Is it time for Canonist #3 or SotL #1? Has the format slowed down enough where we want to hate on lands via Armageddon or Winter Orb, which would interact favorably with the Lands, Miracles, and various BUG matchups? Are there enough BUG matchups around that the SoBaM I was toying around with actually might be good? Are any of the flexible cards (e.g. Blessed Alliance, Warping Wail) covering enough generic ground to be worth it now?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm interested in doing some elephanting, and I think mucking around with the sideboard a bit might pay some dividends. It can't just be "add more cards to make X matchup better." That's how we end up with infinite cards to bring in for the BUG matchups and not enough cards to take out. Anyway, I don't have the answers yet, but those are the sort of questions I'm asking myself now.

[Lio]

Meta of BoM2017 (4% or more):
http://www.bazaar-of-moxen.com/en/index.html

AGGRO 26,80%
Death & Taxes 33 7,37% - CC, Needle, Disenchant effects, removal, sweeper
Eldrazi Aggro 21 4,69% - Magus of the Moon, removal, CC, Batterskull
Burn 14 3,13% - Batterskull, removal, disenchant effects, CC
Infect 14 3,13% - removal, Canonist, Needle
UR Delver 10 2,23%
Goblins 7 1,56%
Dragon Stompy 5 1,12%
Maverick 5 1,12%
Merfolk 3 0,67%
MUD 3 0,67%
Bant 2 0,45%
OTHER AGGRO 2 0,45%
Grixis Delver 1 0,22%
CONTROL 44.19%
BUG Midrange 49 10,94% - bug delver/leovold bug? Moon Effects, removal, Rest in Peace, CC, Batterskull
Miracles 38 8,48% - Gideon, Needle, Palace Jailer, CC, Ratchet Bomb?
BUG Control 28 6,25% - Moon Effects, Batterskull, Rest in Peace,
Grixis Control 27 6,03% - Moon Effects, Batterskull, Gideon, Palace Jailer, Rest in Peace
Lands 10 2,23%
The Rock (Junk) 10 2,23%
OTHER CONTROL:10 2,23%
Stoneblade 8 1,79%
Thresholdv(other)6 1,34%
Nic Fit 5 1,12%
Loam 4 0,89%
Tezzeret Control 2 0,45%
Pox 1 0,22%
COMBO 29.01%
Dark Depths 25 5,58% - Needle, PtE, maybe Moon effects
Reanimator 25 5,58% - Surgical, Rest in Peace, PtE?, Canonist, Containment Priest, Graffdiggers Cage
Show and Tell 20 4,46% - Needle, Containment Priest, Canonist?,
Storm 17 3,79% - Canonist, sweeper, Rest in Peace, Surgical, Graffdiggers Cage
Elves 15 3,35% - Canonist, Graffdiggers Cage, Containment Priest, sweeper, Moon Effect
Food Griffin 9 2,01%
Painter 7 1,56%
Mono R Sneak 4 0,89%
Aluren 3 0,67%
OTHER COMBO 3 0,67%
Dredge 2 0,45%

*spent 20 minutes by trying to format the table, but without success..

Given the SB cards I would prefer to bring in SB against each of the top decks, my board would look like this (note: I am splashing red at the moment):
1x Batterskull
2x Gideon
1x Palace Jailer
1x Magus of the Moon
1x Electrickery/Sudden Demise //could be pontiff with extra scrubland main/sb
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Containment Priest
1x PtE
2x Rest in Peace
1x Pithing Needle
1x Council's Judgment
1x either PtE or Surgical

My maindeck:
4x Plains
5x Fetch
2x Plateau
4x Wasteland
4x Rishadan Port
2x Cavern of Souls
2x Karakas (cut one Karakas for extra Plateau)

4x Aether Vial
4x Mother of Runes
4x Thalia
4x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Serra Avenger
2x Recruiter of the Guard
1x Sanctum Prelate
1x Magus of the Moon // so many free wins
2x Mirran Crusader
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sword of War and Peace
1x Umezawa§s Jitte

Actually, this is the list I am playing (except few changes in SB), because my meta is similar to BoM meta and Magus gives me way too many free wins.

[Emurian]

Hmm, in my eyes a couple of cards in our sideboard are set in stone, mainly Ethersworn Canonist and Rest in Peace.

I never dropped below 2 Canonist, same for the RIP's though I have seen people running 1 in combination with Enlightened tutor if they make their SB Artifact/enchantment based.

2 Canonist, 2 RIP

Then you need to keep in mind that quite some Hate is in the form of Enchantments [Dread of night, E. Plague, night of souls betrayel] or Artefacts [Pithing needle, Null rod] which you need to be able to remove. [Also fringe cards like Ensnaring bridge comes to mind]

I think most will settle on Council's judgement as this is the ''gotta catch them all'' answer ranging from most hate to TNN.
I noticed over the last couple of months that allot of people bumped Council up to 2.

2 Canonist, 2 RIP, 2 Councils.

I always include one Pithing needle in my sideboard to deal with specific lands [Inkmoth nexus, Thespian stage, Maze of ith yadyada] moreso because if I want to have more fancy stuff in my deck, one of the first things I tend to cut to make room are the Revokers.

2 Canonist, 2 RIP, 2 Councils, 1 Pithing needle.

I also run 1 containment priest on a regular basis, used to have 2. But went back to 1 to free up slots in my sideboard. I guess, with the addition of Recruiters that I can get away with this.

thats 8 out of 15 slots which I run on a very regular basis.

From this point on you can start adding the ''fun stuff'' imo.

Allot of people starting to include Planeswalkers versus [afaik] mainly Miracles, the card which has seemed to go down in allot of SB cards is Cataclysm. From what I conducted it seemed people freed up the Cataclysm slot to include Gideon instead. Both cards cover the same matchups [Cataclysm was mainly a lands/miracle hate card in my eyes] with Gideon also showing to be contributing in matchups that play -1-1 sweepers, or the mirror.

The increase of SB removal in the form of PtE's was a reaction to the Eldrazi decks from what I remember, though I also find it a solid choice to board in versus Infect and [although to a lesser extent] BUG. From what I read in the DTB section of this forum Eldrazi has seen its peak, people recognise the deck and learned to adapt. Although still present in my local meta I did notice that some of the players that where on Eldrazi swapped back to their old decks after 3 months. I don't know if this change is just local, or global. If its global, I guess we should re-evaluate how much we still want the PtE's.

Surgical extractions, Faerie macabre stuff has been a sole response to the BR reanimator that popped on the radar again. Although I love surgical allot when playing with Elves, I do not include it in the DnT SB as I rather play another Containment priest or RIP. Granted, Surgical has some awsome targets in certain matchups [Punishing fire, Dark Depths, Engineered Explosives, reanimator targets] I also understand that Surgical allows you to react to Reanimator turn 0 [on the draw], it has a wide range of functions, that being said, considering we never played them before the Reanimator top 8, I guess that these slots will be freed up again once the deck is enough on the decline. [Mainly because we tend to have 2-4 slots dedicated to GY, and what I see happen allot now is that people went up to 5-6 GY cards instead.]

Sanctum prelate, imo, should be included at least 1 in the mainboard, I loved the card since its release, had allot of positive results with it, and even played with 2 MB for a while. I am lately considering to move one to my SB to free up a slot in the MD for a Mirran Crusader. Imo, prelate is a good SB card because it can be boarded in allot of matches. Basicly, blue decks its [nearly] always ok to put it on 1, in certain matchups the card can stop the keycards [Show and tell, Terminus, Tendrils of Agony] which will at the minimum buy you time.

Anything else aside the above cards are deviating from the SB's I tend to see here online lately, and I guess we shouldn't forget that people also have different playstyles, or local meta's which make them choose certain cards which in an open meta would be mediocre at best [example, I tend to include absolute law allot in my SB because I HATE losing from red decks, online I won't have allot of people that will back me up with the card choice, but in my local meta it tends to shine quite often and DnT players here will argue less against the card then the online ones which I need to make clear first in what kind of Meta I am playing.]

Edit: Looking at the meta breakdown I can't help but chuckle that they slided D&T under the agro section of decks rather then control. I would place D&T under the control section, I have no idea why people automaticly conclude, your playing a creature deck so it has to be agro. . .

[AsmodeusDM]

So assuming we cut say the 2 paths and the 1-2 surgicals and the 1 skull and suddenly had 5 open sideboard slots.


What would even start to play? I feel like those cards are in my sideboard because they are so incredibly impactful; other options just feel so much less powerful (most of the time).

an example:

Compare going into game 2 vs. RUG devler or Reanimator with a RiP in your opening hand or against SnS with a Cpriest to ...... opening against a blue deck with a Spirit of the Labyrinth (out of the side).... it just feels so much less impactful.

Part of the problem I have is that the match-ups that i want better cards for.... I really can't find or think of any cards that are just game-ending like that... this is probably the rest that decks like Miracles and BUG/4C are the top decks that they are because of the lack of easy answers against them.

[iatee]

Cutting Path to Exile is crazy, IMO.

Path is good against:

Eldrazi
All Delver decks
Infect
Mirror
Reanimator
Lands
Burn
Other rando creature decks.

The above adds up to a pretty healthy chunk of the legacy metagame.

[gh0st_b1rd]

As a practitioner of RW Taxes I think it is wrong to not include Pia and Kiran Nalaar in your 75. That card cuts through hate from the BUG decks, provides a haymaking comeback mechanism, and is a sufficient standalone threat for Miracles to deal with. Generally Pia and Kiran Nalaar takes the spot of the 2nd Gideon and I highly recommend it.

Also I would cut the 4th Plains for another Karakas.

Lately red non-creature spells have been awkward for me and I have concluded that just biting the bullet and playing Path to Exiles over cards like Sudden Demise and REB is sufficient. My reasoning is that Sneak and Show will always find a way to make itself present in the metagame thanks to the metagame share Miracles always had as well as the BUG decks holding their share. Also Path is fantastic against Delvers and Eldrazi.

[Lio]

Pia and Kiran Nalaar were under consideration, but I am skeptical about double red manacost. Did you have an color mana issue or do you tick up vial@4 and then protect it with Karakas? Also, did you ever find yourself not playing Magus of the Moon, because you lacked second basic Plains? It makes sense to return back 3rd Karakas and include Pia and Kiran. I will give it a try!

Edit: checked your posts 5 pages back and found out an answer for my question.

[Marungo]

Just wanted to pop in and say I totally agree with the discussion here on the subject of Surgical leaving the sideboard. I think Reanimator had its brief stint near the top and now we're in need of a small update. Here's what I'd be on (mind you I haven't played in an event since the Baltimore classic).
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Rest in Peace
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Path to Exile
2 Council's Judgment
1 Containment Priest
1 Palace Jailer
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sword of War and Peace

I'm on 3 crusader and 1 avenger main and the rest are the usual suspects. Also like 2 cavern a lot right now.

[Warden]

Cutting Path to Exile is crazy, IMO.

Path is good against:

Eldrazi
All Delver decks
Infect
Mirror
Reanimator
Lands
Burn
Other rando creature decks.

The above adds up to a pretty healthy chunk of the legacy metagame.

I wouldn't rule out shaving it down to 1 PTE though. That gives you 5 magic missiles against ^^quoted^^ decks with additional bombs being CJ x2. I know I bring in CJ against BUG since it ruins planeswalkers and TNN alike. Perhaps this is a way to net more slots while providing the same functionality?

[Mad Mat]

1. Miracles. Comes in a few different flavors; all of them are good. Recently we've seen a shift towards more Predicts as a necessity for fighting the decks in category 2.
Predict also makes the match-up worse for us. Our gameplan against miracles has always been twofold: first we attempt to race them aided by hatebears and port. Most of the time, in particular against good miracles players, this would fail, especially without vial, in which case it was almost impossible. Our second plan was to grind them out, mostly through equipment and legendaries + karakas, post side by casting massive nerf spells such as Gideon, Palace Jailer, Cataclysm and Armageddon. This latter plan is made much more difficult through predict, which is basically to them ancestral recall for two mana. This allows them to restock on answers to our grind game, including finding the correct ones for difficult-to-answer spells such as Gideon and land destruction.

If we're to change our sideboard, I think a considerable chunk should go to a strategy that can consistently beat or at least put up a defense against miracles' late game. Especially with the shift towards more 3-mana creatures, the aggro game has become too unlikely for us.


2. Various 3-4 color decks featuring Abrupt Decay and Baleful Strix that try to grind out Miracles and other decks in this category. These range from tempo decks (3-4 color "Delver"), to control decks (Shardless, Team America), to combo decks (Food Chain, Aluren).
The only things these decks have in common is the colors, which come with the inclusion of DRS and decay. Against delver, we throw anything we can in their way until we can stabilize, which mostly implies winning. Against shardless, we win game 1 and hope to grind it out successfully game 2 or 3 in spite of a shit ton of extra removal and sweepers. Against BUGx control, we lose almost by default unless we can tempo them, as their late game is unbeatable. BUG combo is a more complex game altogether, requiring the right hate pieces (mostly ethersworn canonist and revoker) and a much stronger tempo game than against shardless because of the combo's inevitability. Food chain is a terrible match-up for d&t, especially now they have access to walking ballista. Aluren is favored, as our deck is probably the worst way their combo card can backfire.

Lately, BUGx delver has become more of a problem, because they tend to shift their post side game more towards a midrange build with strong anti-d&t inclusions such as true-name nemesis and dread of night. This evolution is something our sideboard and/or our sideboard strategies needs to address.

Notably, Mirran Crusader is not as good against every BUG deck. It's at its best against shardless, but much worse against decks which have access to red or have a combo finish. And shardless is hardly the top BUG deck out there nowadays, now that even miracles even has an edge over it because of predict.


3. Various decks that attack BUG decks (ANT, Burn, Show and Tell, Blood Moon decks). These decks try to beat the BUG decks before they can get established. This can either mean literally winning the game via fast combo with some backup, or by turning greedy manabases against themselves (Blood Moon, Price of Progress).
This is a very important contrast. Splashing is often very rewarding against the decks in category 2, but it's the decks here that punish it. I haven't seen it much yet, but back to basics stoneblade builds are also a pain for D&t builds with a splash to deal with. Reducing the basic plains count has its costs.

Still, the raw power of orzhov pontiff and magus of the moon seems like it is worth it. Both are difficult to play around and cause huge blow-outs when they enter the battlefield in various match-ups. The downside is that I do not think you can include cataclysm or armageddon in these type of decks as easily, because their manabase has become much more fragile. Fetchlands also enable opposing DRS in a not insignificant number of games.


Surgical Extraction seems really poor against this field. It's amazing against Lands and playable against ANT. R/B and other reanimator decks are on a decline; there's just so much incidental hate around in the form of DRS that it's just not a good time to mucking around in graveyards. Can these slots be better utilized? Would we want something like another Containment Priest or RiP over one of these? Is Containment Priest even pulling its weight? Are there other pieces of early interaction that might be better?
I never really liked containment priest in this deck. It does too little against too few decks and even there, it is a double-sided sword which hurts our gameplan as well.


I've also been on the fence about trying the deck without Batterskull. I've kept it in there out of fear of the Eldrazi matchup and due to its unique effect, but I do wonder if I can get by without it. Again, I haven't pulled the trigger on this, but I'm willing to discuss it.
Batterskull is the best piece of equipment against BUG decks, overall. In addition, you have eldrazi and the combo match-ups, where its mana efficiency and ability to stop emty the warrens are unique. Why would the current meta changes precipitate its omission?


I've also been wondering if we can adjust things by finding cards that overlap well with commons matchups. At what point do we start experimenting with cards like Mindbreak Trap for the ANT matchup since it also happens to cover Food Chain, Aluren, and Elves? Is something like Leyline of Sanctity or Aegis of the Gods fine as something that can overlap with ANT and Burn? Is it time for Canonist #3 or SotL #1? Has the format slowed down enough where we want to hate on lands via Armageddon or Winter Orb, which would interact favorably with the Lands, Miracles, and various BUG matchups? Are there enough BUG matchups around that the SoBaM I was toying around with actually might be good? Are any of the flexible cards (e.g. Blessed Alliance, Warping Wail) covering enough generic ground to be worth it now?
Mindbreak Trap doesn't do a lot against food chain or elves. If there's one card which is an all-star in all combo decks mentioned (including burn), it is the canonist.

In my opinion, any mono white list should play either Armageddon or Cataclysm, because it is a card late-game grind, fetch-heavy decks have a very hard time beating unless they have the timely force. Asking around, the fear of spells like cataclysm is the most important reason they do not cut all of their forces post side.

I've been playing Blessed Alliance for a while. In my latest sb plan, which covered 17 decks, I boarded it in against 11 of them. It's great against any sort of delver, midrange with true-name and/or jitte, eldrazi, infect, burn and reanimator. But it is very reactive, just like Warping Wail. This makes it very vulnerable to discard and to people calling your spell when you have to keep your mana open for it. In particular with Warping Wail this is problematic, because almost half of the lands that can cast it are very suspicious when not used. That, and the presence of so many blood moon effects in the format make me reluctant to include it again.

[gh0st_b1rd]

Pia and Kiran Nalaar were under consideration, but I am skeptical about double red manacost. Did you have an color mana issue or do you tick up vial@4 and then protect it with Karakas?

You only tick up to four if you have a Karakas in play and probably turning the corner or winning the game because of Pia and Kia. Sometimes you will flood out in which case you might also leave Vial at 3 and just pay the mana for Pia and Kia with your other lands and a Karakas backed up. I usually like to tap lands for Pia and Kia if one of my lands is a Cavern.


Also, did you ever find yourself not playing Magus of the Moon, because you lacked second basic Plains?

I always slam down Magus if I have one basic Plains in play, granted, the Magus could potentially win the game for me singlehandedly without further assistance.

I have topdecked many Mirran Crusaders, Prelates and Flickerwisps but it never really mattered because I was winning. Depending on what Basics my opponent has in play and the board state I might sandbag the Magus and engineer a board state where Magus wins for me later.

[Finn]

I do not like Sword of War and Peace in this deck. It counters the life loss associated with TNN, but a lot of things do that - and do other things well. TNN is not nearly so difficult when "dealing damage" is the primary fear. This sword is pretty handy in the mirror, but I think I would prefer simply having a second Jitte if I were going to devote a sideboard slot. The fact is that it is an aggro/tempo card in a control deck. A card like that with such limited control features has a pretty high bar for entry even in the sideboard. This card is just not broadly powerful, so even in a saturated meta, there are going to be better sb options.

[Elpresidente]

Then what do you prefer for instance as a "Mirror Breaker"

The issue I've always had with jitte in the mirror is that if it connects, it typical just wins the game as it should. However, similarly, it often is just immediately named by early revokers and post board needles often turning the first into a paper weight, and I'd imagine a second would be just as bad.

Batterskull has felt underwhelming at times in the mirror and many other matchups, eldrazi and bug excepted, whereas I've definitely had WaP overperform against decks like miracles and of course the mirror where the protection from white is supremely important. I used to run cards like Manriki-Gusari as a way to beat the mirror, as well as trying broader options like seal of cleansing and leonin relic warder, but as the latter are harder to find or less effective, and the former being so incredibly narrow, I found that I preferred having a more flexible card.

Unrelated to the war and peace discussion. I'm having so many issues with TNN, that I'm likely to test Blessed Alliance this week at FNM. Unfortunately, the main TNN player is on a BUG control shell which I know runs spell snare, so it will be interesting to see how it fairs. In the larger local metagame, burn has been seeing an uptick, so I'm inclined to want to test blessed alliance for that matchup as well

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Isn't Gideon a mirror breaker? I mean, if you board out your thalias and if your opponent does as well, overloading the needle effects seems fine. Do you board in Containment Priest(s) in the mirror?

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[gh0st_b1rd]

Orzhov Pontiff is a solid mirror breaker if we want to be somewhat greedy.

Mangara is probably the best mirror breaker in the monowhite mirrors though, aside from Jitte of course.
I wanted to recommend Devout Chaplain, but Mangara is just better.

[Medea_]

@Secretly.A.Bee
Gideon isn't that great in the mirror. It's fine, and I board it in occasionally, but most games are fought on the equipment axis or in the air. Gideon doesn't interact on either of those fronts. If it comes in, it's more that I have more cards that I want out than good cards that come in. I never board in two Gideon. My boarding for the mirror usually looks like: -4 Thalia, -1 Prelate; +1 Needle, +1 Batterskull, +2 Council's Judgment, +1 Path/Gideon depending on opponent's deck composition.

I'm not huge on Priest in the mirror. It ranges from cripplingly good to useless to actively bad against opposing Flickerwisps. It's a bit too high-variance for me, but some people are fine with that. The people who board out Vials bring in Priest.

Edit: On the list of not quite good enough cards: link. (http://mythicspoiler.com/akh/cards/watchersofthedead.jpg) Some day I will get my RiP on a creature...

[Medea_]

http://media.wizards.com/2017/dw466ytu5_akh/en_iLihnohg44.png

Discuss.

[L10]

First Sanctum Prelate. Now this. Great.

[AsmodeusDM]

Meh.

Reasonable against certain combo decks but against most decks pretty underwhelming.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Still bad against emrakul combo decks.

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[NeckBird]

Why would we play Amonkhet Gideon over BFZ Gideon? Am I missing something? We're playing Ally of Zendikar because he's more versatile (and in many scenarios easier to set up) than Armageddon, Brimaz, Cataclysm, Restoration Angel, or Wilt-Leaf Liege. He also dodges Abrupt Decay, Lightning Bolt, Swords to Plowshares, and is a continuous source of card advantage on top of being a fast clock. AMK Gideon is so much easier to answer than BFZ Gideon and isn't close to as powerful as BFZ Gideon in the matchups where you'd want BFZ Gideon. Maybe if AMK Gideon's +1 didn't target so you could prevent TNN from dealing damage he'd be a reasonable choice. I just don't see it.

[RobNC]

@Secretly.A.Bee
Gideon isn't that great in the mirror. It's fine, and I board it in occasionally, but most games are fought on the equipment axis or in the air. Gideon doesn't interact on either of those fronts. If it comes in, it's more that I have more cards that I want out than good cards that come in. I never board in two Gideon. My boarding for the mirror usually looks like: -4 Thalia, -1 Prelate; +1 Needle, +1 Batterskull, +2 Council's Judgment, +1 Path/Gideon depending on opponent's deck composition.

I'm not huge on Priest in the mirror. It ranges from cripplingly good to useless to actively bad against opposing Flickerwisps. It's a bit too high-variance for me, but some people are fine with that. The people who board out Vials bring in Priest.

Edit: On the list of not quite good enough cards: link. (http://mythicspoiler.com/akh/cards/watchersofthedead.jpg) Some day I will get my RiP on a creature...

I find Gideon (and to a lesser extent Elspeth) great in the mirror. Breaks board stalls and provides advantage by constantly pumping tokens. Council's Judgment is the only thing that can remove it, as long as you're careful and don't +1 him to attack into open white mana.

EDIT: This post was made before the new one was spoiled.

[Poron]

even the DnT player who doesn't like it will have to change its list to accord to this news.

mirror opponent will play it and just build its castle

[iatee]

First we got the monarch token, now we have the castle of Gideon.

[WashableWater1]

http://media.wizards.com/2017/dw466ytu5_akh/en_iLihnohg44.png

Discuss.

I don't really see myself running a 3-mana Fog machine. It could be good against Delver, infect, or other thread-light decks, but I don't see this warranting a spot for such a narrow purpose.

[mrjumbo03]

even the DnT player who doesn't like it will have to change its list to accord to this news.

mirror opponent will play it and just build its castle

Just get them down to 0 and Flickerwisp him out.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Has anyone ever tested Leonin Shikari as a one-of to tutor for?

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[Adan]

All decks where the Platinum Angel Emblem is relevant against can easily handle him or are simply faster.

Elves just deals an insane amount of damage to everything including Gideon,
Belcher will have easily killed us until then or can also eat him up with Empty the Warrens swarms
Storm can Echoing Truth/Abrupt Decay him
OmniTell has infinite machinegun with Release the Ants or Emrakul will just smash us

And pretty much every other deck in the format is good at attacking this new fella and/or Lightning Bolt.

I don't think he'll be any useful.

[Poron]

...in the meanwhile how many turns did this give you?

[WashableWater1]

...in the meanwhile how many turns did this give you?

It really depends. Against Elves 0. Against ETW 0. Against Mentor, 0. Against Delver, probably 1-2. Against Infect, probably 1-2. In the mirror it's probably pretty irrelevant. What's it good against?

[Lio]

Played small local event, ended up 2:3, losing 5 of 6 games to Dread of Night! Once i got double Dread of Night ... not smthg that lifts one's spirit.

How do you approach matchup agains 4c control? I board in: 2x Gideon, 2x Council's Judgment (Dread of Night, Liliana, Jace, Jitte, Leovold), 2x Rest in Peace, 2x Path to Exile (replacement for StP), Palace Jailer and Magus if playing red. Out: 3x Phyrexian Revoker, 1x Sanctum Prelate (they seem to have billions of different removals), 4x Swords to Plowshares, 1-2x Flickerwisp. Is it correct to cut some of our removals? I found Deathrite Shaman to be very annoying (want StP) on one hand but struggling with low threat count on the other (don't want StP). Is it justifiable to cut single Aether Vial postboard?

[gh0st_b1rd]

Played small local event, ended up 2:3, losing 5 of 6 games to Dread of Night! Once i got double Dread of Night ... not smthg that lifts one's spirit.

How do you approach matchup agains 4c control? I board in: 2x Gideon, 2x Council's Judgment (Dread of Night, Liliana, Jace, Jitte, Leovold), 2x Rest in Peace, 2x Path to Exile (replacement for StP), Palace Jailer and Magus if playing red. Out: 3x Phyrexian Revoker, 1x Sanctum Prelate (they seem to have billions of different removals), 4x Swords to Plowshares, 1-2x Flickerwisp. Is it correct to cut some of our removals? I found Deathrite Shaman to be very annoying (want StP) on one hand but struggling with low threat count on the other (don't want StP). Is it justifiable to cut single Aether Vial postboard?

Generally you board out a couple copies of Mom too as well as trim down to a single copy of Flickerwisp. Prelate stays in as a better "Mother of Runes" because its a 2/2. Likewise for game 3 if you see that your opponent brought in more than a single copy of Dread of Night you also be leaving Revokers in.

But yeah when you board out Swords to Plowshares you're actually boarding in only Rest in Peace for (DRS and Goyf) and no more than that. If they are on TNN BUG I would just keep all your Revokers in instead and still proceed to take out a couple copies of Swords to Plowshares.

Boarding in extra spot removal and keeping the full playset of Swords to Plowshares is only recommended vs Delver.

[mykatdied]

Played small local event, ended up 2:3, losing 5 of 6 games to Dread of Night! Once i got double Dread of Night ... not smthg that lifts one's spirit.

How do you approach matchup agains 4c control? I board in: 2x Gideon, 2x Council's Judgment (Dread of Night, Liliana, Jace, Jitte, Leovold), 2x Rest in Peace, 2x Path to Exile (replacement for StP), Palace Jailer and Magus if playing red. Out: 3x Phyrexian Revoker, 1x Sanctum Prelate (they seem to have billions of different removals), 4x Swords to Plowshares, 1-2x Flickerwisp. Is it correct to cut some of our removals? I found Deathrite Shaman to be very annoying (want StP) on one hand but struggling with low threat count on the other (don't want StP). Is it justifiable to cut single Aether Vial postboard?

I think they run somewhere in the realm of 12 actual threats. I have found that having a ton of 1 cmc removal against them is really good.

[RobNC]

Went 5-4 at SCG Worcester today, exact same list I played last week (link here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?6775-DTB-Death-and-Taxes&p=998173&viewfull=1#post998173)). Started off 4-0 and then lost 4 of my next 5. Ugh.

Pretty exhausted right now so here's the short version of highlights:

I played burn three times, winning two of them. Both opponents thought Prelate affected all spells, which bought me many turns unintentionally. I'm not sure if this was due to their lack of experience with the format. The match I lost I was just a victim of variance. G1 I barely lost but G2 I was never even in. Shit happens.

I played Miracles twice (R7 & R8), coming pretty close to winning games and then getting essentially combo'd out by Mentor. It was a rough feeling. Of the 4 games I lost, 3 were to a ton of huge monks and 1 was to angels. SoWaP is amazing as long as your creatures stick.

My last round was against BR Reanimator. G1 I couldn't do much, G2 I drew a ton of my sideboard hate and he kept Decaying it, but I had enough pressure to still win. G3 he had a T1 Sire of Insanity (imagine my dread as I dump 4 sideboard cards in my graveyard). After his second attack I draw Karakas and pass, third attack I draw Swords to Plowshares and take care of Sire while I'm on 2 life. Next few turns I draw a Mom and another STP, but he gets in a Grave Titan; I can handle the Titan but couldn't handle the zombies. Felt bad.


Happy with how the deck ran, and happy with how I played. Lots of hate for D&T was out there today, but the deck was evvvvverywhere (along with Miracles, too). Much more Burn at the top tables than I expected, too. Lots of people capitalizing on greedy midrange decks, I guess.

[Medea_]

Iatee on camera.

[Dice_Box]

Iatee on camera.
Who? :)

I am not happy to see Magus in this deck of yours again. I already dislike playing against DnT as it is.

[mykatdied]

Only caught the end of the second game. That wasn't even close and I enjoyed it thoroughly. Stomping miracles is my favorite past time.

[ChemicalBurns]

Iatee on camera.

Magus doing a surprising amount of work! Also great play in g1 with the double Plow read and willingness to push out Prelate, the Terminus protection, on one for the win.

G2 just looked like opponent kept in CB and Cavern and Prelate won the match > _ <

[fluuu]

Magus doing a surprising amount of work! Also great play in g1 with the double Plow read and willingness to push out Prelate, the Terminus protection, on one for the win.

G2 just looked like opponent kept in CB and Cavern and Prelate won the match > _ <

SO u dont think guys the new gideon comes in DNT?

[RobNC]

Watching him crush Miracles was very satisfying. Makes me want to buy Plateaus and Magus now...

[fluuu]

Watching him crush Miracles was very satisfying. Makes me want to buy Plateaus and Magus now...

link?

[Dice_Box]

I am not sure Miracles is the deck you really want Magus for. Sure, sometimes you will just get them, but Miracles is one of the more resistant decks in the format to Moon effects.

[RobNC]

link?

It was a live stream. It'll probably be on YouTube later this week, though. It's the SCG Worcester Legacy Open.

[Luca Grease]

He just lost his win-and-in to Big Red, which has got to hurt. Still, congrats to him about the result. Curious to read his report.

[gh0st_b1rd]

It was indeed heartbreaking to watch him lose his win-and-in. At the same time, it was a demonstration of how DnT loses: by being an abnormally fair deck. If he had drawn a land sooner Game 3 I'm convinced that he would still be in the game.

Regardless, congrats on the result!

[RobNC]

Game 3 was heartbreaking, but watching him take care of Emrakul on game 2 was awesome.

Opponent casts Through The Breach to put in Emrakul, iatee taps Vial and puts in Flickerwisp targeting Emrakul. Next turn bounces Emrakul to hand with Karakas.

[Mad Mat]

Won a 26 man tournament today, playing the following list:

Lands (23)
2 Scrubland
3 Flooded Strand
5 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Karakas
2 Cavern of Souls

Creatures (27)
3 Mother of Runes
1 Judge's Familiar
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Serra Avenger
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Flickerwisp
2 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Mirran Crusader

Other (11)
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Sideboard (15)
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Rest in Peace
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Council's Judgment
1 Pithing Needle
1 Path to Exile
1 Blessed Alliance
1 Palace Jailer
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Sword of War and Peace

R1: Burn 2-1
R2: Miracles 2-1
R3: Eldrazi 2-0
R4: ID
R5: ID

QF: Miracles 2-1
HF: Miracles 2-0
F: Miracles 2-0

All miracles builds were mentor miracles. My sb plan was -2 stp, -2 mother, -1 mirran, -1 judge's familiar +2 gideon, +1 needle, +1 sowap, +1 palace jailer, +1 prelate.

[NeckBird]

Won the Legacy Classic on Sunday

Beat Lands 2-0

Bant Deathblade 2-1

4C Control 2-0

Grixis Delver 2-1

Miracles 2-0

Aggro Loam 1-1-1

Omni-Attack 2-1

Drew (Technically conceded) to Bryant Cook Round 8 to get 4th place. If we drew here, I would have been 1st seed.

Top 8

Miracles 2-1 (same dude as in the swiss)

TES 2-1 (Bryant Cook)

Shardless BUG 2-0 We split the prize tickets and played for the plaque.


I got to the event at 9:34 am, just in the nick of time. I wanted to change up my sideboard a bit before the event but I didn't have time. I probably would've cut Relic-Warder for a Prelate. I would not change the main 60 one bit. SCG says I am playing 2 Prelate main, but I am only playing 1.

[Bryant Cook]

Won the Legacy Classic on Sunday

Beat Lands 2-0

Bant Deathblade 2-1

4C Control 2-0

Grixis Delver 2-1

Miracles 2-0

Aggro Loam 1-1-1

Omni-Attack 2-1

Drew (Technically conceded) to Bryant Cook Round 8 to get 4th place. If we drew here, I would have been 1st seed.

Top 8

Miracles 2-1 (same dude as in the swiss)

TES 2-1 (Bryant Cook)

Shardless BUG 2-0 We split the prize tickets and played for the plaque.


I got to the event at 9:34 am, just in the nick of time. I wanted to change up my sideboard a bit before the event but I didn't have time. I probably would've cut Relic-Warder for a Prelate. I would not change the main 60 one bit. SCG says I am playing 2 Prelate main, but I am only playing 1.

Nice playing you, congrats on first.

Thanks for conceding me in, it was a very nice thing that you totally didn't have to do. I would've made it if we drew (as we found out through the wrong point totals), but I was in 7th with bad breakers with 2 people who could've jumped me.

If I had beaten you in top 4, I was going to message you on facebook to give you some wizbux. Fortunately for you, that didn't need to happen ;)

[Julian23]

This is a bit off-topic, but I wonder: if someone concedes so you make Top8 and you end up playing vs them at any point in the Top8, do you let them go first if you are the higher seed?

[Medea_]

@neckbird
Congrats on your finish! You're a brave man to scoop Bryant Cook into the top 8. Not only is he is a phenomenal player, but our TES matchup is a little rough to boot. I would snap accept a draw, but otherwise I would have played in hopes of knocking him out. I 100% understand if you needed the time to eat/recuperate before the top 8 though.

[AnziD]

This is a bit off-topic, but I wonder: if someone concedes so you make Top8 and you end up playing vs them at any point in the Top8, do you let them go first if you are the higher seed?

In most cases I would, unless its a horrendous matchup and there is a lot on the line. For something like a classic, I couldn't care less and would let them play/draw. If I didn't for some reason, I would consider negotiating a split and playing for the trophy

[Bryant Cook]

This is a bit off-topic, but I wonder: if someone concedes so you make Top8 and you end up playing vs them at any point in the Top8, do you let them go first if you are the higher seed?

I've never heard of anyone doing this, what I've known my entire nerd-life career is that you "thank" them with sweet dollarz afterward.

That said, Sam beat me. He doesn't need my money.

[NeckBird]

I didn't really care one way or another. Even if I lost Bryant, I was happy with my finish.

[Patrunkenphat7]

This is a bit off-topic, but I wonder: if someone concedes so you make Top8 and you end up playing vs them at any point in the Top8, do you let them go first if you are the higher seed?

I do not think so... It's a difficult and subjective topic, and either position would be defensible, but what if you think you had a great matchup and would have been favored vs the person who conceded? The opponent was also able to benefit from an hour-long break prior to the top 8 with the concession. I could imagine scenarios where you feel like the person is doing you a significant favor and you otherwise would have been crushed out of the top 8 so your opponent could lock up the best seed, and in those cases it's a nice karma gesture to do that, but in general I do not think it should be the expectation or norm.

[appleseiter15]

Hello All,

There has been quite an uptick in Aluren players at my LGS. It seems like a very beatable matchup, but I think I have a losing record because I simply don't know how best to time my disruption against them. I tend to throw out Revoker on Cavern Harpy and Prelate on 4 as my primary disruption (try to keep them off four mana.) I am mostly curious about the timing and intricacies of disrupting them during the combo with Revoker/Canonist/Recruiter. Specifically, if I have a revoker in hand, when is the best time to flash it in once aluren drops: as soon as I see the harpy? When it tries to bounce something? What are the pitfalls here? Also, if I have a recruiter in hand, what is the timing with fetching canonist or revoker and flashing them in? There are so many triggers and I want to find the right times to throw my disruption at them.

Thanks for the help!

[iatee]

I went 11-2-2 at the Open, which put me at 11th. Lost an unfortunate on-camera win and in for t8.

My list:

Creatures (26)

2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Flickerwisp
2 Magus of the Moon
1 Mirran Crusader
4 Mother of Runes
1 Palace Jailer
2 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Sanctum Prelate
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Vryn Wingmare
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

Lands (23)

3 Plains
2 Arid Mesa
3 Cavern of Souls
3 Flooded Strand
1 Plateau
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Karakas

Spells (11)

4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Sword of War and Peace
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Cunning Sparkmage
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Rest in Peace
2 Path to Exile
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Council's Judgment

I'll probably play something close to this list in Vegas, maybe switch a sideboard card or two, but the main felt really good. I was almost going to play a black splash with Kambal instead, but my friend Sam (very good Angel Stompy player, he made t8) managed to convince me out of it. I am still not sure whether he did this in good faith or because he knows how bad it would be for him if I convinced a bunch of DnT players to play Kambal and Dark Confidant. In any case, the red splash is probably just better. We all need easy wins once in a while, especially over a 15 round tournament.

I would say every single one-of creature I played was key to me winning some game or another, except for the Faerie Macabre in the board. I wasn't playing and could have used a Containment Priest r15, but beat Elves twice without it. In both cases, the red splash was key. I mostly dodged matchups where Mono-W is a little more favored (UR Delver, Burn) though I also didn't get to play any Land-based combo matches (Lands, Depths, 12-Post) that are super easy wins with this kinda list. 6/9 decks I played d1 were Stoneforge decks, which is pretty abnormal. I went 2-0, 2-0, 2-0 vs Miracles - honestly there are almost no t1 plays I want to see more than Island Sensei's Diving Top and I even came with a board that had more than I usually have for Miracles. (P/K, CJ, SP, Needle, Relic of Progen, SoWaP)

Pia/Kiran's late game was relevant pretty frequently and Palace Jailer was great too. I'm a real convert on the Palace Jailer in the main, he's like our JTMS. I sided in Pia/Kiran in vs all decks that don't play Wasteland + aren't fast combo.

Day 1:

1. 4C Delver/Stoneblade (2-1) (1-0)

G1 I STP his first two Delvers, but he follows up with two DRS, SfM for SolaS. I Revoker his DRS even though I suspect he has a Jitte in hand, hoping to constrain his mana and find a way to get out of the situation before he can get a creature voltroned. I don't - he gets Jitte+Solas online, but I eventually draw into a Flickerwisp to reset the counters. I have my own Jitte + Crusader, so I just need him to not have something for a turn, since he doesn't have enough mana to suit up a creature with both. Unfortunately he has a Council's Judgment for my Jitte + Lingering Souls, and I just can't come back.

G2 I T3 Cavern Magus.

G3 Wasteland him and he's stuck on one land, then I T4 Cavern Magus.


2. Esper Stoneblade (1-1-1) (1-0-1)

G1 I'm on the play, I have Sfm/Thalia/Magus. He does have some basics / still kills the Magus / can't come back from my fast start.

G2 I don't remember how I lost, I think he Thoughtseized me a bunch and played a TNN, something like that

G3 I kept a one land Aether Vial hand and he had a Pithing Needle immediately - I draw a second land on t2 but not a third for a while. Tick my Vial to 4 and have Council's Judgment/Pia+Kiran/Karakas, so as soon as I drew a 3rd land I was going to pull ahead pretty fast. He plays a 4 mana Sorin and pumps out tokens slowly. Eventually I Recruitered for Relic Warder to take the Needle and unlock Vial and have Pia+Kiran/Vial/Karakas + Bskull + Sofi + other random creatures on board, and he just has some Lingering Souls tokens, since I killed Sorin and the Lili he found too.

We went to time and he wouldn't scoop because he claimed he had outs but realistically I was 95% to win from that board state, it was just going to take 5-6 turns to out-token him.

3. 3c Aluren w/ Shocklands (2-0) (2-0-1)

G1 I Magus him t3 looks like he's playing a Delver deck with no basics?

G2 T3 he Shardless Agents and I see an Aluren. Yikes, okay, didn't board for Aluren. Still have a lot of pressure on him, eventually he has to to Deluge and goes to 1 life, but now has a few fliers and I have no board. Draw into Mirran Crusader / Sofi, which does greater than 0 damage, so I was good.

4. UW Stoneblade (0-2) (2-1-1)

G1 Have a double Vial opening hand and draw another, don't draw much action and he gets TNN+Jitte online

G2 He has triple STP+Path and I don't draw too many creatures.

5. Maverick (2-0) (3-1-1)

G1 He has a t2 Sylvan Library that he's using pretty aggressively and Sfm/Jitte comes out, but I have a live Vial. I get a Bskull in play, he attacks with a Jitte'd SfM that he gives pro-Black so it won't run into my Bskull - I activate Vial and Revoker it so he can't use its counters after the attack. Then I Palace Jailer his tapped Mom next turn and win pretty easily off the card advantage.

G2 Path his early KotR, have a Cunning Sparkmage for his Dryad Arbor, Palace Jailer again.

6. DNT (2-0) (4-1-1)

G1 I had an awkward hand with double cavern but had double SfM, and had sat near this guy earlier so I knew he was DnT. I get the Jitte out but don't equip it for a while because he keeps awkwardly holding up with mana and not Porting me. Eventually he's forced to use his STP, but only has one and I get Jitte online.

G2 I fall behind pretty early and he has a huge board with Bskull, there's an equipped Jitte that's been Revokered by me, he has a Revoker on Mom but awkwardly has the only Mom left in play + he has a Gideon and a few tokens. At one point he activates Gideon as a creature for some huge alpha attack, I STP it and he tries to bounce it with Karakas, but no, that flavor fail results in him with 5 more life. I keep taking Bskull hits and go down to 2 life, but can Palace Jailer the Germ token and hopefully topdeck as the monarch. I have a bunch of live Vials - he bounces and replays Bskull, with Vials on 3 and 2 I can Recruiter + Relic Warder at instant speed to prevent him from hitting with the Skull or gaining any Jitte counters. Win safely off the massive card advantage from that point.

7. Miracles (2-0) (5-1-1)

G1 Keep a hand off Mom Thalia and have the pleasure of drawing t1 Vial for my t1 draw. Cast a Jitte, equip Thalia w/ Karakas backup and Vial on 2, he activates Top for Terminus, I bounce Thalia and Mom gets tucked. He then Brainstorms, I activate Vial for Spirit of the Lab for the blowout. Next turn, still a little tilted from the Spirit wrecking, he Forces my Cavern'd Palace Jailer and scoops.

G2 He plays Volc and mainphase Brainstorms, pretty clear sign of desperation. I Wasteland his Volc and it turns out he didn't find his second land. I have Thalia/Wingmare and Port, and although he draws a few land eventually, he never has the mana to do something like Brainstorm/Terminus.

8. DnT (2-0) (6-1-1)

G1 We both have double Vials, but I'm on the play and hit 3 first / use a bunch of Flickerwisp tricks to prevent him from ever hitting 3 with the Vials, and his only 2 is Thalia, which isn't doing much. Eventually Palace Jailer him.

G2 Neither player has early Vials, but we both draw into them. He SfM's an early Bskull, I Revoker naming Jitte, assuming he actually had Jitte in hand, then just Flickerwisp his Germ token / keep him off double white, which prevents him from casting the Gideon stuck in his hand. Win with Fwisp beats.

9. 4c Control (2-1) (7-1-1)

G1 I Sfm a Sofi which gets Thoughtseized, I have an okay start with Thalia and some other pressure, but he has a Baleful Strix and two DRS, can cast a JTMS and protect it.

G2 I forgot what happened, I think I just manascrew him.

G3 Prelate on 1 is racing vs 2 Snapcasters, which is a race I'm losing but one I figure I'll win eventually since I have more creatures and am probably shutting off a lot of his draws. I draw into a Revoker to trade with one of the Snapcasters, then I draw into a Recruiter, which I use to find Pia/Kiran.

Day 2:

10. Miracles (2-0) (8-1-1) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=112736)

G1 This was an on camera match. I had t1 Vial and after watching the match, it looked like he had FoW but no blue card. T2 I didn't Port him because he only had Volc up and I wanted to reserve my Port in case he played a Plains or Tundra - if he had, I would have been able to tap it and then Vial in a Mom safely. He didn't have a white source at all though. SfM got Sofi, then got to surprise him with a t4 main phase Vial'd Magus out of nowhere. Magus is usually mediocre against Miracles since your lands are actually many of your best cards in the matchup and I usually side them all out. But once in a while it can do something and he was playing Legendary Miracles, which has a way greedier manabase.

He gets lucky and naturally draws into a Plains and tries to STP my Magus even though it was protected by Mom, which suggested he either had another or a Snapcaster / wasn't floating a Terminus, so I burned the Prelate that I was saving for Terminus on 1, which ended the game.

G2 He mulled to 5, one of those cards was a Counterbalance though, so he effectively mulled to 4, especially because my hand had double Cavern. My first two plays are Mom and Spirit, they get STP'd, but then I have a Cavern'd Prelate followed by a stream of Cavern'd Flickerwisps, which can also keep him off Terminus mana.

I knew his whole hand save one card from Counterbalance, but I wasn't going to attack with Prelate just in case that one card was a Snapcaster, even though it was fairly unlikely. I attack him with 3 Flickerwisps and he's at 7 - he manages to bounce my third Fwisp with a Venser and buy himself one more turn at 1 life. I have 4 lands including a Port, Flickerwisp, Thalia, Wingmare in hand and spend a little time trying to figure out what to do - really he's dead unless he has exactly Terminus on top, but I don't have a way to keep him off white since he found a second white source. I play the Wisp again (pointlessly over-committing) and I miss the line of Flickerwisp ->Flickerwisp ->Flickerwisp which lets one hide until his turn's over and wins past Terminus. I think I was too focused on his mana. I also kinda just wanted the game to be over / was a little restless, I think I would have seen the correct line off camera.

11. Food Chain (1-1-1) (8-1-2) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=112708)

G1. Thalia + Double Magus vs DRS and Baleful Strix. DRS doesn't have much fuel and I think I'm probably likely to win this game pretty easily, assuming I'm playing against some BUG control thing but he uses the last piece of DRS food to cast a Food Chain, which lets him cast a large Walking Balista. Game goes long, I power through 2 Walking Balistas and 3 Abrupt Decays, but eventually he finds a 3rd Ballista to combo out.

G2. Interesting game that has me tempo bouncing his Leovold a bunch w/ Karakas so I can pressure his mana and kill his dudes with a Flickerwisp+Sofi. He has two Baleful Strix which are going aggro, but I have a Vial on 4 and Pia/Kiran tokens which trade with them + I have Karakas too. He tries to Toxic Deluge the board for 2 - I bounce Pia/Kiran, he tries to Fatal Push, forgetting that I have an Ethersworn Canonist in play.

G3. Game goes to time with him w/ Food Chain, 3 Griffins, DRS, me with Pia/Kiran + Karakas. I can spend a turn to kill his DRS with Pia/Kiran which means he doesn't actually have infinite beaters when his Griffins die - and I do get to make 2 more spirits a turn. We were both empty handed but I would put him at maybe 60-65% to win, purely because he would be drawing into more cantrips and would likely find a Ballista faster than I'd find Council's Judgment/Revoker/Recruiter/Relic for Food Chain. But it wasn't a sure thing. I got the sense he was a pretty good player and Food Chain is a rough matchup post-Ballista.

12. Elves (2-0) (9-1-2) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=112726)

G1. Paired with someone who I know - he knows I'm playing WR Taxes, I know he's playing Elves. He's also a good player, which makes things worse.

I'm on the play and keep a hand off fetch, Plains, Palace Jailer, Port, Magus, STP, something else. He mulls to 6. My plan with that hand is STP any t1 mana dude, Port him t2, Magus him t3 and hope he hasn't fetched a Forest yet. This plan only wins the game if exactly that happens, but it wins the game almost all of the time if it does, and it's not like a mull to 6 is going to have a higher EW % vs Elves.

He read me for STP so purposely played a Nettle Sentinel off an in-hand Bayou, then Wirewood off something else, and he gets Magused out of the game.

G2. He keeps a rough hand, I keep a hand off Ethersworn Canonist. Draw into a Vial quickly, Ethersworn forces him to fetch a Bayou for Decay. I then Recruiter for Sparkmage, which eats another Decay. He still has one Forest in play when I Magus him, but it slows him down a lot because he doesn't have another green mana producer. I start getting some Flickerwisp beats in while Flickering Recruiter. He manages to draw into GSZ for Heritage Druid, and goes for a NO'd Craterhoof, attacking for something like 23, but I can Flicker it and he doesn't have a way to get the last damage in, dies to Fwisp beats.

13. Miracles (2-0) (10-1-2) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=112737)

G1. He's mana light, Forces a Thalia, plays a Counterbalance that doesn't do a lot, I forget the actual details but his mana just gets pressured too much for him to do much.

G2. I have Sofi in my opener and SfM for Sowap, it gets plowed. He blind Predicts me naming Plains when I have 2 on board (so, funny enough, only had one left in the deck) and hits Arid Mesa instead. I get a Thalia in play and double Port him, don't even cast my Swords until the last turns, just keep him off doing anything relevant.

14. Elves (2-0) (11-1-2) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=112715)

G1. Opponent says he's relatively new to legacy and has red sleeves, so my guess is burn, instead I see Forest into DRS and groan. However, I have my one of Spirit of the Labrinyth in my opening hand and I'm on the play. His hand was really dependent on a Glimpse, so he's sitting there doing fairly little. Draw into a Vial soon after and SFM for Jitte. He has double Wirewood, but I also draw into Revoker. I drew very well that game.

G2. Opponent mulls to 5, I mull to 6 and keep a hand off Wasteland, Vial, STP, STP, Recruiter, Crusader. Probably winning easily if I draw a white source quickly, but I draw a Port instead and have to sit there nervously for a few turns. Eventually have a Cavern and Recruiter for Sparkmage, then draw into a white source too.

15. Mono-Red Sneak (1-2) (11-2-2) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=112709)

G1. I suspect he's playing some sort of Chalice/Blood Moon deck, I'd seen him at nearby tables with a Blood Moon in play, but I didn't know what else was going on in his list. He's on the play and mulls to a t1 Chalice, which is pretty big since it shuts off my Vial and I draw another. I cast Mom through Cavern and I have to take off a turn from Porting him so I can cast a Crusader and get some sort of pressure down. He uses the turn to ramp into Inferno Titan. Inferno Titan'd my Mom+Crusader duo, I protected Crusader instead of Mom to give myself the additional out of drawing Jitte next turn, since a Jitte'd Crusader could actually stop the Inferno Titan. Having thought about this more, this was wrong - I was trying to expand my total # of topdecks for next turn, but Mom being alive means I could cast a creature, give it pro-red in response to the trigger, and buy myself one extra topdeck, and the math works out better for that plan. My other good draws were Recruiter (for Jailer, immediately), then STP (since I had Flickerwisp) or naturally drawing Jailer.

I don't know if I would have definitely won this game on the play (it's possible I draw into air and he just Titans me a few turns later) but with a Vial and no break in mana denial it probably would have been close at least. The die roll matters so much vs these Chalice combo decks.

G2. Have a Vial, Wasteland, Port, Thalia and Relic Warder to eat a Lotus Petal. I have one turn with a Vial on 3 where I can throw out a Flickerwisp EOT to increase my clock + have Vial on 4 for Palace Jailer, or just keep Flickerwisp open to deal with some weird situation and I go for that, because I don't know what the hell kinda sideboard cards he's gonna have. He Through the Breeches Emrakul, which is fine because I have the Flickerwisp + Karakas next turn, though Palace Jailer would have also done it and maybe been more entertaining.

G3. I mull a Sfm/Fwisp/Fwisp/4 land hand because it has no mana disruption or interaction, keep a 1 land hand with Mom/Thalia/Sfm/Pithing Needle/some 3 drop, scry a Path to the bottom hoping to find the second land. He t2 ramps into Godo and gets a Batterskull. I t2 Sfm to get my own Batterskull, but he has Sudden Shock. He attacks for 7 but forgets his Godo trigger.

I draw a Karakas and admittedly don't see the bounce Godo play because I didn't even know that card was a legend and it was the first time I've ever seen it on the field in legacy. I am not sure that's the correct play at that point regardless, since it gives him another Bskull once he draws into mana. I cast Thalia instead and I didn't expect him to actually attack with it into Thalia+Mom, but he did. At that point I feel like I'm gonna stabilize with a Mom at 1 life and might be able to draw out of it (those decks topdeck very poorly since they're so much fast mana) but he has a Sulfur Elemental.

Watching the replay, commentators make it seem like some terrible matchup for DnT and some miracle I won g2, but that's actually wrong. It's a good matchup. They are soft to mana denial, most of their dudes get STPd or Karakas'd and they don't get to cheese out as many free wins off Chalice on 1 or Blood Moon as they do vs other decks. Generally if someone is playing stuff like Sulfur Elemental it's not because DnT is an easy matchup. Still, anyone can lose to fast combo hands.

Anyway, I had fun and highly recommend my list as a good starting point for a WR list.

[Scott]

Thanks for the informative report.

[Medea_]

For those of you splashing red, Harsh Mentor seems insane and worth testing.
https://i.redd.it/gpzsck56c0ry.png

[iatee]

Yeah this card seems nuts. It's a hatebear that's actually very strong in the mirror, vs Miracles and vs DRS. And it's a human.

As soon as it comes out, I'll probably start by testing one in the main and one in the board.

[NinjaSonic]

Super excited to do RW Taxes well as it's my favorite version and kind of dropped off since Recruiter of the Guard took away the need for Imperial Recruiter. At first I wasn't a fan of Palace Jailer but that card advantage is desperately needed sometimes. I've been working on assembling the legacy list for awhile now and was going to use one similar to yours but cut a Vryn Wingmare for Harsh Mentor. Was on the fence about Palace Jailer but you said he's our JtMS so I'll give him another shot. The lack of Containment Priest in the 75 surprised me. What would you cut for it?

[Elpresidente]

Quick mockup based on Iatee's build for my initial testing with harsh mentor
RW Taxes

Lands 23:
4 Port
4 Wasteland
3 Cavern of Souls
3 Karakas
5 White Fetches
3 Plains
1 Plateau

Non Creature Spells 11
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares (maybe should be bolt)
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Creatures 26:
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Harsh Mentor
1 Mirran Crusader
3 Flickerwisp
2 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Magus of the Moon
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Palace Jailer

Sideboard
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sword of War and Peace
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Cunning Sparkmage
1 Sudden Demise
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Containment Priest
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Rest in Peace
1 Council's Judgment
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Path to Exile
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar

Cut the mainboard wingmare and spirit for 2 harsh mentors, took his suggestion of Faerie Macabre -> Containment priest. Decided to cut Prelate in the side for a sudden demise for some of the problem matchups.

[iatee]

Super excited to do RW Taxes well as it's my favorite version and kind of dropped off since Recruiter of the Guard took away the need for Imperial Recruiter. At first I wasn't a fan of Palace Jailer but that card advantage is desperately needed sometimes. I've been working on assembling the legacy list for awhile now and was going to use one similar to yours but cut a Vryn Wingmare for Harsh Mentor. Was on the fence about Palace Jailer but you said he's our JtMS so I'll give him another shot. The lack of Containment Priest in the 75 surprised me. What would you cut for it?

Probably Relic of Progenitus.

[DisgruntledElk]

Hey Iatee,

I really like most of the build (I used to run Imperial Taxes back in the day myself), and congrats on the results, but I have a couple questions if you wouldn't mind:
1. Why the 3/5/1 split on plains/fetches/plateau and not a 3/4/2. Since we don't actually get anything by having a shuffle effect, why not run a second red source instead of a fifth fetch?
2. No Gideon in the board. Why? The card is so powerful and effectively counters so much hate, I have trouble justifying not running 1 somewhere in the 75.

Thanks for the answers!

[autonom]

In what matchups is Gideon most important?

[Medea_]

In what matchups is Gideon most important?

Miracles and Shardless.

[iatee]

Hey Iatee,

I really like most of the build (I used to run Imperial Taxes back in the day myself), and congrats on the results, but I have a couple questions if you wouldn't mind:
1. Why the 3/5/1 split on plains/fetches/plateau and not a 3/4/2. Since we don't actually get anything by having a shuffle effect, why not run a second red source instead of a fifth fetch?
2. No Gideon in the board. Why? The card is so powerful and effectively counters so much hate, I have trouble justifying not running 1 somewhere in the 75.

Thanks for the answers!

1. You don't really want a Plateau in play vs a lot of legacy since it's a Wasteland magnet and you really don't want one in your opening hand. Ideally you want at least one basic in your opening hand. 8 'basic sources' already doesn't guarantee you one and you need a good reason to push that number lower. Basically - I think people want to play 2 duals because they're afraid of Wasteland, but really you should play 1 dual so you actually can play around Wasteland by starting the game with 1 or 2 basics in play. The only awkwardness I think is post-board with Pia/Kiran - you have to naturally draw a Cavern or use Vial on 4. But I try to only play that card in games that you expect to go long + they don't have Wastelands.

2. Gideon is a strong card, but double W is tough on the manabase and the main is already very strong against the decks that Gideon is best against. The 60 is filled with uncounterable disruption for Miracles, and Shardless has a really tough time dealing with Magus. The SoWaP/Pithing Needle/Council's Judgments spots already provide a bunch of generically good vs Miracles/DnT effects. The 4 drop creatures I played are both kinda 'planeswalker equivalents' since they're card advantage engines - but unlike Gideon they can be Vial'd in and cast through Cavern, they don't cost 5 mana with a Thalia in play - they're better natural fits for what the deck's doing.

So basically:
a. Awkward fit for the deck's mana
b. Don't need it anyway since you are naturally strong vs control decks +
c. You have other comparable haymakers that are easier to put in play

[DisgruntledElk]

2. Gideon is a strong card, but double W is tough on the manabase and the main is already very strong against the decks that Gideon is best against. The 60 is filled with uncounterable disruption for Miracles, and Shardless has a really tough time dealing with Magus. The SoWaP/Pithing Needle/Council's Judgments spots already provide a bunch of generically good vs Miracles/DnT effects. The 4 drop creatures I played are both kinda 'planeswalker equivalents' since they're card advantage engines - but unlike Gideon they can be Vial'd in and cast through Cavern, they don't cost 5 mana with a Thalia in play - they're better natural fits for what the deck's doing.


But have we tried Ajani Vengeant? Because the sickness...

[redtwister]

@iatee
Congrats and nice job calling the meta! Imperial seems very well-placed in the land of super-greedy mana and it still has solid game against Miracles, which remains just the best deck in Legacy.

[Medea_]

There have been a ton of positive finishes with D&T in the past few days, so I wrote up my thoughts (http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?p=910) on various lists.

[iatee]

But have we tried Ajani Vengeant? Because the sickness...

Yeah, it's a pretty sick card. But like most sick cards, it's also bad.

It's kind of a shame there aren't any pushed RW creatures in Magic, actually not very many good RW multicolored cards at all. Means they have room to print new ones though...

[filln]

Yeah, it's a pretty sick card. But like most sick cards, it's also bad.

It's kind of a shame there aren't any pushed RW creatures in Magic, actually not very many good RW multicolored cards at all. Means they have room to print new ones though...

After the infamy of Lightning Helix, Wizards saw no need to print any further RW cards.

[gh0st_b1rd]

Unless a red card has the same power level as either Magus of the Moon or Pia and Kiran Nalaar, I highly doubt I will include it into my personal 75.

As much as I like damage-y hatebear I have zero interest in letting my opponent play Magic. I could see it maindeckable in Burn though.

[Warden]

Unless a red card has the same power level as either Magus of the Moon or Pia and Kiran Nalaar, I highly doubt I will include it into my personal 75.

As much as I like damage-y hatebear I have zero interest in letting my opponent play Magic. I could see it maindeckable in Burn though.

I think Harsh Mentor deserves testing though. For starters, he's 1R (not out of the question to cast) and human (cavern friendly). IIRC, Deathrite's 1st ability is not considered a mana ability --- isn't it a GY ability that results in making mana? The prospect of making the opponent lose life from using DRS, Top, Waste is silly. In the mirror he gets really bonkers with vial, mom, SFM, port, waste, karakas-bouncing, and equipment resulting in damage. Since he isn't a legend, you can stack multiple copies for "use an ability, deal 2/4/6 to yourself." I think he's viable in the format and it's a matter of determining whether he's worth MD slots, keeping him in the SB, or making a new deck. I'm curious if UR delver or pure R burn play him over existing choices.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I cannot see a better home for it than in UR Delver. I'll be playing WR Taxes by Vegas, I would imagine. I'm just 2x Magii of the Moon shy of it now, and I'll be getting a set of these for Delver anyway, and I like the red splash a lot.

Edit: Do you think it's wasted space to play both Jailer and Mangara? I'll obviously be playing a Jailer to test, but I am not sure if it's worth playing both. Also, has the nonbo of Jailer and SotL come up for you guys? Think it's still okay to play both?

[Medea_]

I'm writing up a primer about the Food Chain matchup. I'd love to hear how you sideboard for this one. I'm mostly interested in what you are trimming or cutting from the main.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

-4 StP
-2 Wasteland
-1 SoWP
-1 Jailer (if playing Mangara in this slot, I would drop a Flickerwisp instead)

+2 PtE
+2 CJ
+2 Canonist
+1 BSkull
+1 Prelate

I have no real clue, but that's how I boarded last weekend. Seemed to be okay.

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[NeckBird]

I'm writing up a primer about the Food Chain matchup. I'd love to hear how you sideboard for this one. I'm mostly interested in what you are trimming or cutting from the main.

+2 Ethersworn Canonist. Stops them from comboing off to kill you or just stops them from getting 9+ power on board.
+1 Leonin Relic Warder/Sanctum Prelate. Taking out a Food Chain is good enough here. Naming 3 with Prelate takes out Engineered Plague, Toxic Deluge, and Food Chain.

-2 Thalia. She isn't awful in the matchup, but I never want to see more than one throughout. She doesn't stop them from comboing, but still puts on enough early game pressure I don't board out all four.
-1 Plains/Swords to Plowshares. They aren't playing Wasteland so taking out a Plains is pretty safe. Swords is bad versus griffin, but you really want to hit their early Deathrite Shaman's to help your mana denial plan or Baleful Strix's to push through damage. I'd never take out more than one though and it's probably safer to board out a Plains.

That's what I'd do with my build. I don't think Gideon is very good in this match as he does nothing versus the combo and matches up poorly versus Griffin's. Council's Judgment is also fine. I'm more concerned with the Food chain player naming horror with Plague than human so having an extra piece of artifact/enchantment removal is good.

[iatee]

If you're playing Pithing Needle, you should be bringing it in for Walking Ballista.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

For real? You think that it's necessary with 3 Revoker?

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[RobNC]

Food Chain is a mana ability. Revoker shuts it off, Needle doesn't. They both can shut down Ballista, though.

Ballista will clean up your board as Mom and equipment do nothing to protect your stuff.

[iatee]

Revoker has a lot of weight on its shoulders now - DRS, Ballista, Food Chain. If you name Food Chain they are likely to have at least 8 ways (4 Ballista, 4 Decay) to kill it, along with a few sideboard cards, most likely. So yeah, I think bringing in Needle if you play one is definitely right, and it would be even if you were playing 4 Revoker in your list. Walking Ballista absolutely wrecks us.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

That's true. I have a GPT Saturday as well as Sunday. I'm not really into writing reports, but I will post matchups and my results. Decklist after this weekend. Nothing fancy.

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[Medea_]

https://i.redd.it/n80q5uszvdry.jpg

We were so close to human Flickerwisp...

[Secretly.A.Bee]

It's a taunt, not a near miss...😭

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[Secretly.A.Bee]

http://mythicspoiler.com/akh/cards/devotedcropmate.html

Probably too slow
Broken link...

[LegacyIsAnEternalFormat]

http://mythicspoiler.com/akh/cards/devotedcropmate.jpg

[gh0st_b1rd]

Now this card is very, very good. Flash-Wisp is also very good and I would definitely run that over the 4th copy of Flickerwisp.

[LegacyIsAnEternalFormat]

Now this card is very, very good. Flash-Wisp is also very good and I would definitely run that over the 4th copy of Flickerwisp.

can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not

[Fry]

can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not

This

[gh0st_b1rd]

I wasn't being sarcastic. I'm stoked to tutor for this off Recruiter and just start cranking back dead Moms, Revokers and SFM.

Likewise I also quite enjoy Human-Wisp as an idea to try out. The fact that those creatures are Human makes playing a heavy Cavern of Souls version appealing.

[mykatdied]

I have been experiencing a lot of dread of nights recently. Considering a couple always watching for the sideboard which could be interesting with crop-mate. Good way to return thalia onto a safe board.

[Mad Mat]

If dread of night count increases, I'd just add War Priest of Thune to the sideboard. It has additional value against aluren, food chain and sneaky show, which are all great decks right now as well.

[mykatdied]

If dread of night count increases, I'd just add War Priest of Thune to the sideboard. It has additional value against aluren, food chain and sneaky show, which are all great decks right now as well.

That is definitely fair. I have a leonin relic-warder in the main for dread of night currently. I was just thinking that having access to vigilance and a little buff for our creatures could be decent. Likely at 3 mana it is not really where we want to be though.

[Sparkii]

The only thing kind of neat about human-wisp is that it can take things out like Marit Lage.

[gh0st_b1rd]

The only thing kind of neat about human-wisp is that it can take things out like Marit Lage.

Fogging a Griselbrand swing off only lands I think is pretty hot. Also blocking tricks with Recruiters, SFMs, Flickerwisps, etc.

Unfortunately if this card ever gets included it would only be as a 1-of and only when Dread of Nights are rampant.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I won my GPT tonight with DnT. I will post more later in the week. I have another one tomorrow.

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[Curby]

I have a leonin relic-warder in the main for dread of night currently.

Mind posting or linking to your list?

[mykatdied]

Mind posting or linking to your list?

This is what I have been on. I forgot to cut a card, but haven't really had any issue with it overall. I may cut Thalia, Heretic Cathar for Serra Avenger if legends miracles keeps showing up to my local meta.

// Deck: death and taxes (61)

// Lands
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Karakas
9 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

// Creatures
4 Flickerwisp
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Mangara of Corondor
2 Mirran Crusader
4 Mother of Runes
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Sanctum Prelate
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar

// Spells
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of War and Peace
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Æther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Batterskull
SB: 1 Blessed Alliance
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 2 Council's Judgment
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Manriki-Gusari
SB: 2 Path to Exile
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Rest in Peace

[NinjaSonic]

@iatee How do you like the black splash. I saw it pop up once or twice on MTGTop8 and it seems pretty solid, gives you card advantage and a little more help vs unfair decks.

[Medea_]

@mykatdied

Why does it make sense to have a Leonin-Relic Warder in the MAIN for Dread of Night, when that card is coming in for sideboard games? If that you're 61st maindeck card functioning as sideboard card #16?

@everyone
I don't think there are any new playable cards for monowhite D&T in the set. Gideon is worth testing (but is likely better in a Miracles or Stoneblade shell). The new white creatures are a little lackluster; they have obvious downsides or limitation in comparison to other cards we already have.

[iatee]

I like the black splash a lot, I think it's the best way to consistently beat TNN. Kambal is very good against Delver/Miracles/Burn and Bob is very good in the fair non-blue matchups. I do think the red splash is better positioned at the moment, however.

I went 5-2 for 11th at a ~100 person event yesterday with the WR list I ran at the open, only swapping Relic of Progen for a Containment Priest. The list feels very close to tuned.

I beat Lands, Aggro Loam, Sneak and Show, BUG Delver w/ basics + Snapcasters, Dark Thresh and lost to Grixis Delver twice. The Grixis Delver matchups/games were all very close, both of the losses to one guy were determined by 1 life point (e.g. had a given fetch been a non-fetch I would have won one game, had one of his lands been a fetch I would have won another) and the other match was won by his t3 Dread of Night that only resolved because I didn't find a 2nd white source to cast my Prelate on t3 - would have been an easy win if I did, since he would be facing Mom+Thalia+Prelate on 1 followed by a Sfm next turn.

It's hard to judge how bad the Grixis Delver matchup is since my losses tend to be so close, but I think it's a tiny bit unfavored with what I'm running. Considering going back to 3 Path to Exile in the board, maybe over Pithing Needle. The other option is another Sanctum Prelate in the board, upping the total to 3 in the 75. Sanctum Prelate on 1 really wrecks them, but also awkwardly leaves you even more open to dying to an early Delver.

Another card I was thinking about totally independent of Grixis Delver - Apostle's Blessing. Has anyone ever tested with it extensively? Protecting Vials and Swords on top of creatures for 1 colorless mana seems very attractive in an Abrupt Decay meta. OTOH it is not a creature and this deck isn't great at holding mana up. Faith's Shield does the same thing for W - and also potentially gets you wins out of nowhere in close races, and (kinda randomly) also beats storm Tendrils kills.

[fluuu]

I like the black splash a lot, I think it's the best way to consistently beat TNN. Kambal is very good against Delver/Miracles/Burn and Bob is very good in the fair non-blue matchups. I do think the red splash is better positioned at the moment, however.

I went 5-2 for 11th at a ~100 person event yesterday with the WR list I ran at the open, only swapping Relic of Progen for a Containment Priest. The list feels very close to tuned.

I beat Lands, Aggro Loam, Sneak and Show, BUG Delver w/ basics + Snapcasters, Dark Thresh and lost to Grixis Delver twice. The Grixis Delver matchups/games were all very close, both of the losses to one guy were determined by 1 life point (e.g. had a given fetch been a non-fetch I would have won one game, had one of his lands been a fetch I would have won another) and the other match was won by his t3 Dread of Night that only resolved because I didn't find a 2nd white source to cast my Prelate on t3 - would have been an easy win if I did, since he would be facing Mom+Thalia+Prelate on 1 followed by a Sfm next turn.

It's hard to judge how bad the Grixis Delver matchup is since my losses tend to be so close, but I think it's a tiny bit unfavored with what I'm running. Considering going back to 3 Path to Exile in the board, maybe over Pithing Needle. The other option is another Sanctum Prelate in the board, upping the total to 3 in the 75. Sanctum Prelate on 1 really wrecks them, but also awkwardly leaves you even more open to dying to an early Delver.

Another card I was thinking about totally independent of Grixis Delver - Apostle's Blessing. Has anyone ever tested with it extensively? Protecting Vials and Swords on top of creatures for 1 colorless mana seems very attractive in an Abrupt Decay meta. OTOH it is not a creature and this deck isn't great at holding mana up. Faith's Shield does the same thing for W - and also potentially gets you wins out of nowhere in close races, and (kinda randomly) also beats storm Tendrils kills.


What's the list?

[iatee]

23 LANDS
2 Arid Mesa
3 Cavern of Souls
3 Flooded Strand
3 Karakas
3 Plains
1 Plateau
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

26 CREATURES
3 Flickerwisp
2 Magus of the Moon
1 Mirran Crusader
4 Mother of Runes
1 Palace Jailer
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Vryn Wingmare
4 INSTANTS and SORC.
4 Swords to Plowshares
7 OTHER SPELLS
4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

SIDEBOARD
1 Council's Judgment
1 Cunning Sparkmage
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Mirran Crusader
2 Path to Exile
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Pithing Needle
1 Containment Priest
1 Rest in Peace
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Sword of War and Peace

[Mad Mat]

@mykatdied

Why does it make sense to have a Leonin-Relic Warder in the MAIN for Dread of Night, when that card is coming in for sideboard games? If that you're 61st maindeck card functioning as sideboard card #16?
I tried the maindeck LRW before, but didn't like it. The rationale behind this is obviously not dread of night (if people are playing these in the main, you should just not play d&t), but a mainboard answer to jitte, sylvan library and omniscience.


I like the black splash a lot, I think it's the best way to consistently beat TNN. Kambal is very good against Delver/Miracles/Burn and Bob is very good in the fair non-blue matchups. I do think the red splash is better positioned at the moment, however.
In my experience, I did not like Kambal against delver because their mana denial package makes the ability to cast him too unreliable. That's part of the reason I decided not to run him (multiple times) despite having a black splash. The chief reason to splash black, above anything else, is orzhov pontiff, which covers a huge blind spot of this deck in a lot of match-ups and is therefore an ideal silver bullet. Confidant is great, but you rarely ever tutor for him so he's subpar as a 1-of and I've never been able to find room to include more than one.


It's hard to judge how bad the Grixis Delver matchup is since my losses tend to be so close, but I think it's a tiny bit unfavored with what I'm running. Considering going back to 3 Path to Exile in the board, maybe over Pithing Needle. The other option is another Sanctum Prelate in the board, upping the total to 3 in the 75. Sanctum Prelate on 1 really wrecks them, but also awkwardly leaves you even more open to dying to an early Delver.
I have also noted some recent problems with grixis, mostly because they tend to include more sideboard cards which are really devastating against us in conjunction with their aggro plan (like dread of night, jitte, ancient grudge and true-name nemesis). For this, they tend to be cutting counters, so maybe boarding in council's judgment is an option? If only there were a reclamation sage in white...


Another card I was thinking about totally independent of Grixis Delver - Apostle's Blessing. Has anyone ever tested with it extensively? Protecting Vials and Swords on top of creatures for 1 colorless mana seems very attractive in an Abrupt Decay meta. OTOH it is not a creature and this deck isn't great at holding mana up. Faith's Shield does the same thing for W - and also potentially gets you wins out of nowhere in close races, and (kinda randomly) also beats storm Tendrils kills.
I think one of the easiest first rules of thumb for d&t cards will always be "is the card reactionary?". Our deck does reactionary really bad, much moreso if not a creature, because our card selection abilities are among the most terrible in the format and we tend to use up a lot of mana each turn. That's what makes these protection spells as problematic as warping wail. They're not unplayable, they're not bad, but the reactionary part is a really significant argument against their inclusion.

[mykatdied]

@mykatdied

Why does it make sense to have a Leonin-Relic Warder in the MAIN for Dread of Night, when that card is coming in for sideboard games? If that you're 61st maindeck card functioning as sideboard card #16?

Yeah I added it to the main for opposing Jitte, etc and I usually keep it in the 75 as another out to Jitte and Dread of Night. I just forgot to take a card out when I moved the batterskull and added the Sword of War and Peace.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I played the following list in Johnstown, CO on 4/15/2017 at Break From Reality Games, where I finished first, good for 6 packs of MMA3 and 6 byes at Vegas.

4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Flickerwisp
2 Mirran Crusader
1 Sanctum Prelate
2 Recruiter of the Guard

1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Council's Judgment
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Horizon Canopy
9 Plains

SB:
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Path to Exile
1 Palace Jailer
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Sword of War and Peace
1 Rest in Peace
1 Council's Judgment
1 Disenchant
1 Pithing Needle
1 Containment Priest
1 Leonin Relic-Warder


My matchups were as follows:

Rd 1: Jason with Miracles, 2-0 WIN
Rd 2: Ian with Burn, 2-0 WIN
RD 3: Tyler with Death and Taxes, 2-0 WIN
RD 4: Andrew with Miracles, 0-2 LOSE
RD 5: Richard (JBlaze here on the Source) with Grixis Strixes: 2-1 WIN
RD 6: ID with Joel, who was on BUG Food Chain

Top 8, I'm 4th Seed.

Quarterfinals: Jason, with a crazy 125 card 4-color NO Elves list: 2-1 WIN
Semifinals: Josh, with Noble BUG: 2-0 WIN

FINALS: Andrew (Same fellow from round 4) with Miracles: 2-0 WIN

I misplay a couple times, but I've never been on camera (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/135932580) before this event and I'm nervous, tired and hungry, lol. I've also never won an event before; finding a place to play has been one of the challenges in my life. That's changed in recent years, though.

Notes: Food Chain is not a good matchup to say the least. Having said that, I lucked out and didn't ever have to play it (ID'ed). It is due to the number of BUG lists that I decided to play a Council's Judgment main, and was good all day. I got a little lucky against Burn, that matchup is sort of swingy. It feels doubly draw dependent. DnT mirrors really are about the Jitte, holy crap. I won against miracles with Flickerwisp chain a couple times, and it was awesome. Gideon never got played. I boarded him in, but he feels slow as far as an answer to Dread of Night goes. I swapped the Sword of War and Peace to the board at the last minute because of how many Abrupt Decays I thought would be there, and then also I felt I needed another closer. It seemed correct until I found out in round two that there were about 5 other DnT players in the room, and a couple more Miracles. I have never seen this many Miracles/DnT in Denver, so I guess I didn't really expect it. It did pan out, so I guess for now I'll just keep playing and feeling out my playstyle with the deck. I'm still a noob with it, but I think I'm off to a good start. I'm excited to play the R/W version. I'm 2x Magus of the Moon away (and can't find a Japanese nonfoil preorder on the Harsh Mentors yet). Question, Iatee: Do you prefer the white Recruiter? Is there something it can do that Imperial can't, or is it the mana?

Props to my opponents. I had a lot of fun, thank you. Also, props to this thread. Couldn't have done it without your input, thank you. Slops to the 4-hour drive it takes to get to a place with a Legacy scene.

-ABC

[colo]

Another card I was thinking about totally independent of Grixis Delver - Apostle's Blessing. Has anyone ever tested with it extensively? Protecting Vials and Swords on top of creatures for 1 colorless mana seems very attractive in an Abrupt Decay meta. OTOH it is not a creature and this deck isn't great at holding mana up. Faith's Shield does the same thing for W - and also potentially gets you wins out of nowhere in close races, and (kinda randomly) also beats storm Tendrils kills.

Not in D&T, but I play multiple copies in my own spin of Imperial Painter's main deck, and I usually win when I get to cast it. So many people just assume they can handle a threat of yours with an Abrupt Decay these days... I've always been tempted to run one or two in the side of D&T, too, but never quite got around to it in the end. It's also a tough call when to board it in (and what to board out in its favor), I guess.

[iatee]

Question, Iatee: Do you prefer the white Recruiter? Is there something it can do that Imperial can't, or is it the mana?



The mana, but it also gets Flickerwisp. Doesn't get Kor Skyfisher or Fiend Hunter. I would still be playing a one-of Kor Skyfisher if it did.

[Medea_]

@secretly.a.bee

Congrats on your finish!

If you were expecting to play BUG decks all day, I would have jammed Crusader #3 in the main over the CJ. It's a more solid card in a vacuum, and we don't usually want CJ until the sb games anyway; it comes in to deal with opposing hate cards and some random, difficult to answer things like TNN.

@iatee
I think the red splash is a good place to be. I've been mucking around with this (http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?p=936) over the past few days. Your list is likely closer to optimal than this, but I've had a few ideas I wanted to mess around with...

[CptHaddock]

The mana, but it also gets Flickerwisp. Doesn't get Kor Skyfisher or Fiend Hunter. I would still be playing a one-of Kor Skyfisher if it did.

How's the mono W mirror matchup? Seems like on paper you give up some manabase stability in favor of more powerful effects like sparkmage. How would you normally board with the list that you did well with at the last SCG event?

-4 Thalia, -1 Spirit, -1 Wingmare, -1 Prelate -> +1 Needle, +1 Sword, +1 Sparkmage, +1 Relic-Warder, +2 Path, +1 Judgement? Do you keep in the maguses or do you feel like you can cut some number of them in favor of something like a crusader?

[iatee]

Medea, there's no way that you can play four 4 drops in your 75 and still only play 23 lands. Even with my curve I feel like the deck wants 23.5.

Cpt:
-4 Thalia, -1 Spirit, -1 Prelate -2 Magus -> +1 Needle, +1 Sword, +1 Sparkmage, +1 Relic-Warder, +2 Path, +1 Judgement, +1 Crusader

If I were playing a build with two Plateaus, I would also bring in Pia/Kiran.

Magus is bad in the mirror, I've played the deck enough that I've had a g1 or two where it actually cut my Mono-W opponent off mana, but generally it's going to hurt you more because you play fewer basics and the body doesn't do much. Unlike other decks that 'play basics', Mono-W DnT is basically guaranteed to draw into them, even when it doesn't have many early.

It can also be randomly relevant to have a non-white creature in play in grindy Mom stand-offs, and that's another small thing the deck lost from going to the white recruiters. (Also relevant vs Dread of Night.) But the value you get from that is still not worth playing Grey Ogre.

I think this deck is a tad unfavored g1 in the mirror because it's playing Grey Ogres instead of Serra Avengers, and a tad favored post-board since you get to play Cunning Sparkmage.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

@secretly.a.bee

Congrats on your finish!

If you were expecting to play BUG decks all day, I would have jammed Crusader #3 in the main over the CJ. It's a more solid card in a vacuum, and we don't usually want CJ until the sb games anyway; it comes in to deal with opposing hate cards and some random, difficult to answer things like TNN.

@iatee
I think the red splash is a good place to be. I've been mucking around with this (http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?p=936) over the past few days. Your list is likely closer to optimal than this, but I've had a few ideas I wanted to mess around with...

Thank you.

I didn't like the 3rd Mirran Crusader in testing. I wanted more variety in beaters, which is why I swapped the SoFI for the Batterskull in the main. I knew at least 1 of the bug lists would be Food Chain, specifically .dk (congrats on 3rd, btw!), here on the source. Last weekend he showed me how bad my matchup is against it in sanctioned play, and I was sweating the matchup. Turns out there were two there. Also, I knew there would be at least 2 Noble BUG lists there. There was at least 1 more. I'm more afraid of that deck and Food Chain than I am of miracles and the mirror, so I just slightly pre-boarded an answer that is still useful in those matchups and the mirror and Miracles lists.

Iatee: Any interest in playing some number of Flagstones of Trokair in place of some number of fetches? Probably not, because no choice in when it dies without wasting it yourself or playing a second one. I was also just thinking that perhaps between those and Ghost Quarters, there could be some kind of reasonable setup.

[iatee]

Flagstones is (more or less) Wasteland-proof but the upside isn't worth the downside here - you also want basic Plains if you're going to Blood Moon someone, not a legendary Mountain. Fetches aren't really non-basics, playing 5 fetches and 3 plains is roughly equivalent to playing 8 basics, which is probably as low as you want to go.

One thing I have been considering is a Horizon Canopy as a 24th land. That doesn't up the basic count, but it does up the W mana count to a more respectable 13 and is the best way to be playing 23.5 lands. The primary issue I have is the lifeloss - it's definitely not irrelevant, since the deck is already a little soft to the most aggressive decks.

[Medea_]

I've tried to get cute with Flagstones before, and it just wasn't consistent enough for fixing.

Regarding Food Chain, here's the short list of conclusions I came to last night after a few hours of playtesting:

1. We are unfavored game one; the games go long and we get ground to dust by recurring 3/3s or eventually fold to the combo. We don't have enough disruption.

2. We are favored for post-sideboard games on the play, but not on the draw. On the play, the combination of Thalia, Revoker, and Canonist as strong turn 2 plays (with another the following turn) often gets them off balance and gives you a window to win. On the play, they can sneak a Manipulate Fate, Abrupt Decay, or two spells under you, often giving them the setup to win the game. Games where they are on the play AND have DRS are particularly rough.

3. Port is better than Wasteland here. Since the lists have 3-4 basics and your opponent is likely to fetch them out, Port may knock them off a color for their main phase pretty easily.

4. Sideboard plan:-4 StP, -1 SoWaP, -1 Jitte. +2 Council's Judgment, +1 Needle, +2 Canonists, +1 Batterskull

I think it's pretty clear that those 6 cards come in. There's an argument for Gideon, but in practice, it didn't perform well; I also didn't particularly want to cut other cards. Sanctum Prelate and Thalia are both sort of average here, but I don't think we can quite afford to cut the disruptive cards. Our path to victory usually involves sticking two pieces of disruption and then riding a threat to victory. Note that this boarding plan largely forsakes attacking DRS; StP is so bad against everything else in their deck that I'm okay with that. Unless you are using Wasteland, DRS runs out of food after a few turns and doesn't do much in the midgame. It will become relevant again in the very late game, but the game is often (effectively) decided by that point.

Jitte was something I didn't expect to end up cutting. This is a creature based matchup, after all. I found that it really underperformed in game one scenarios (I always fetched SoFaI first, it can't get a Griffon with the trigger, lines up poorly with Leovold). It could be used to blink Eternal Scourage effectively to eliminate the colorless blocker, but if they had the Food Chain/Scourage engine up already, I was either already losing to the board or couldn't get counters in the first place.

I tried trimming a Mom, but ultimately kept in all 4. Theoretically, trimming one makes sense to play around Engineered Plague/Dread of Night effects and to limit the power of Walking Ballista. In practice, I really needed to protect my hate bears from Abrupt Decay, and pushing damage through Griffins was key.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I agree with everything you said. I think in this matchup you do need a way to deal with ballista, though. I boarded out 3x wasteland and left in 2 StP and boarded in a Disenchant along with the rest of what you recommended. I don't feel favored at all against it ever, but I haven't played this nearly as long as most of you, so it could just be the nooby jitters.


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[Medea_]

I agree with everything you said. I think in this matchup you do need a way to deal with ballista, though. I boarded out 3x wasteland and left in 2 StP and boarded in a Disenchant along with the rest of what you recommended. I don't feel favored at all against it ever, but I haven't played this nearly as long as most of you, so it could just be the nooby jitters.


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It's really risky to board out 3 lands, imo. I know Wasteland isn't the best card here, but we *need* to be hitting land drops 1-4. If we're at the point where we can't keep deploying cards, we can just start losing to derpy beatdown from Leovold and Griffins even if cards like Prelate and Revoker stop the combo.

[Medea_]

Full write up (http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?page_id=932) on Food Chain is done now.

[Marungo]

Full write up (http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?page_id=932) on Food Chain is done now.

I really like the write up man! Think it really does go into detail what is good and why and what our role is. I think I'm the future you should not include SoWaP as a "main" card cause most players don't play it maindeck and this is more of a reference to how they should board. Otherwise really interesting write up

[Medea_]

I really like the write up man! Think it really does go into detail what is good and why and what our role is. I think I'm the future you should not include SoWaP as a "main" card cause most players don't play it maindeck and this is more of a reference to how they should board. Otherwise really interesting write up

That's a fair point. I haven't convinced all of you yet. I got Michael Bonde though (https://www.cardhoarder.com/decks/editor)!

[gh0st_b1rd]

That's a fair point. I haven't convinced all of you yet. I got Michael Bonde though (https://www.cardhoarder.com/decks/editor)!

I don't see a decklist. :(

[Medea_]

I don't see a decklist. :(

Well, the link works for me. Try this one instead. (https://www.cardhoarder.com/decks/shared/12427)

[NinjaSonic]

@iatee There's a RW list up on thegraymerchants. The difference is +1 Flickerwisp, +1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar, +1 Phyrexian Revoker and -1 Palace Jailer, -1 Spirit of the Labyrinth, -1 Vryn Wingmare from your list. I guess the part I'm really torn about is the 4 drop slot. One one hand I see how Palace Jailer is great because of the card draw which the deck sorely lacks but on the other hand the Pia and Kiran Nalaar + Karakas combo is pretty insane. I think I'm liking your Vryn Wingmare and 1 Spirit of the Labyrinth instead of a 4th Flickerwisp and 3rd Phyrexian Revoker in their list. Is 2 4 drops too many if I wanted to remove the Spirit of the Labyrinth to have both?

[iatee]

I think if you wanted to do that, you would also want to play 24 lands. (Another Plateau to help cast Pia/Kiran reliably.) So I would cut the Mirran Crusader in the main too, to make room for that land. So -1 Spirit -1 Crusader +1 Pia/Kiran +1 Plateau. Then I would play that other Crusader in the board, and maybe even one more to help make up for not having the effect main.

[vtml1984]

I am using the standard list, but with 1 less surgical in the side, but a Sanctum Prelate in that spot. I am thinking of going with the red splash with -6 Plains,+1 Plateau, +5 fetches, +1 Cavern of Souls, -2 Mirrian Crusader, -1 Serra Avenger, +2 Magus of the Moon, +1 Pia Kira. How would a one of Restoration Angel (either side or main) be? The only hesitation I have with this list is a lack of fliers with toughness >1. Has anyone tested Restoration Angel in this version?

Also, I love restoration angel period. Is it good enough in the Mono-White version maybe with Palace Jailer?

New to the Source and relatively new to the deck, but have been playing legacy for the last 3-4 years.

[Medea_]

I am using the standard list, but with 1 less surgical in the side, but a Sanctum Prelate in that spot. I am thinking of going with the red splash with -6 Plains,+1 Plateau, +5 fetches, +1 Cavern of Souls, -2 Mirrian Crusader, -1 Serra Avenger, +2 Magus of the Moon, +1 Pia Kira. How would a one of Restoration Angel (either side or main) be? The only hesitation I have with this list is a lack of fliers with toughness >1. Has anyone tested Restoration Angel in this version?

Also, I love restoration angel period. Is it good enough in the Mono-White version maybe with Palace Jailer?

New to the Source and relatively new to the deck, but have been playing legacy for the last 3-4 years.

If you scroll waaayyy down on this page (http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?page_id=11), you can see the Big D&T list that Frenadol from MtG:S and I played for quite some time. This list is at least a year old at this point, so keep that in mind. Restoration Angel is pretty good as a one of, but if you start playing a couple of four drops, you really need a 24th land.

[vtml1984]

If you scroll waaayyy down on this page (http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?page_id=11), you can see the Big D&T list that Frenadol from MtG:S and I played for quite some time. This list is at least a year old at this point, so keep that in mind. Restoration Angel is pretty good as a one of, but if you start playing a couple of four drops, you really need a 24th land.

So pretty much it is either play a one of Restoration Angel or Palace Jailer. I don't want to increase my land count. I already hate those games that I flood out to begin with. Palace Jailer seems like a huge liability though.

[iatee]

I have played Resto a few times in R/W. I think the fundamental problem is that you are most desperate for a 3/4 flyer against decks that are designed to prevent you from actually casting 4 drops. The card is very strong vs slow grindy decks, but you are already very strong vs slow grindy decks.

[vtml1984]

I have played Resto a few times in R/W. I think the fundamental problem is that you are most desperate for a 3/4 flyer against decks that are designed to prevent you from actually casting 4 drops. The card is very strong vs slow grindy decks, but you are already very strong vs slow grindy decks.

That completely makes sense, it is basically a win more and if I have 4 mana I would rather have a sword or a Jitte. It is too bad that Restoration Angel simply isn't good enough any more.

[a tribe called trest]

There's also the all too relevant times when your serra avenger cant be saved by resto cause of the angel type.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

What?

[silly]

What?

"When Restoration Angel enters the battlefield, you may exile target non-Angel creature you control, then return that card to the battlefield under your control."

Serra Avenger is an angel.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Why would you play both? Neither can be recruited for and they seem to compete for the same slots.

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[a tribe called trest]

Why would you play both? Neither can be recruited for and they seem to compete for the same slots.

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the big dnt lists that medea referenced ran them both. being able to support moat with the high flying count was one of the easiest ways to cheese a win against eldrazi at that point.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I see. Somehow I missed the part where it turned to Big DnT. My mistake.

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[lavafrogg]

I know that Red and Taxes is a real thing at this point, but does anyone have a current list for a Green and Taxes build? There is so much static searching the interwebs for a current/viable list.

[Medea_]

I know that Red and Taxes is a real thing at this point, but does anyone have a current list for a Green and Taxes build? There is so much static searching the interwebs for a current/viable list.

My site has some slightly outdated stuff. I haven't seen many green splash builds recently. This (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=14993&d=290668&f=LE) is about the closest thing I've seen.

[RobNC]

Most decks trying the GW taxes tend to lean in a nearly Maverick-like direction anyways. Maverick does its own hatebears game pretty well.

[gh0st_b1rd]

There was the idea of a Noble Hierarch and Qasali-centric styled lists floating around awhile back, just to slam down turn 2 Prelates and Thalia, Heretic Cathars.

The idea of turn 2 three drops will always be sound so that idea will always be worth exploring. That and SB Chokes.

[lavafrogg]

Thanks!

That displaced list looks pretty cool, I wish there was a way to abuse recruiter of the guard....

I have been trying to get turn 2 prelates and knights in Maverick and figured I would ask the other white based aggro deck if they had any splash success recently.

I have read the splash page on your website Medea, very helpful!

[mykatdied]

I mean recruiter basically acting as GSZ is pretty neat. You can tutor pridemage, knight, teeg, etc. Basically every card you want out if maverick.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Iatee, what slots will you be putting the Harsh Mentors in? I have this feeling that they are going to be better than most have given him credit of being. I'm starting with your exact list, but dislike a few choices. I cannot argue with your results though, so I'll give it a go.

Most notably, I know the mana would need a touchup, but I really do dislike the Jailer main, and I think that PKN is at the top of the list as to why one would play the red splash anyway.

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[Poron]

Red can give you Magus and Mentor
Green can give you Teeg and Qasali.

Given that you can Prelate for 6 I would just play red. From Swords to Plowshares you can still protect with MoR. Mentor makes a Bolt every opponent's fetchland.

I would play it four copies against Miracle and all its neat shuffle effects

[Secretly.A.Bee]

4 is a ridiculous number, no matter how good he ends up being.

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[iatee]

Assuming Miracles doesn't get banned out of existence in a few hours, I'm going to try one Harsh Mentor over the Spirit of the Lab in the main. If Miracles is banned, the whole deck probably gets retooled and Harsh Mentor seems def not worth it.

[iatee]

Sigh. I have started working on a new list for our impending meta:

4 Sfm
4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Spirit of the Labyrinth
4 Cunning Sparkmage
4 Big Thalia
4 Jitte
4 Aven Mindcensor

My only concern is it seems weak to Elves.

[NeckBird]

Death & Taxes gets a LOT worse now with a Miracles ban. A lot of our bad matchups weren't that popular cause they had an unwinnable Miracles matchup. UWx Stoneblade decks are gonna come back now, which is awful for us as well as Junk Stoneblade which is possibly even worse. True-Name Nemesis+Deathrite decks are going to be everywhere, and they were somewhat popular before, which'll be terrible for everyone. Wizards doesn't understand that there are far worse cards for Legacy than Top. True-Name, Deathrite, and Griselbrand are three of the most miserable cards they've ever printed and if you aren't playing at least one of those three in your deck, or Storm, the next few months, you're probably not going to be doing to well.

[Marungo]

Top banned. Bad news. Code red. Combo summer. Etc.

[iatee]

Yeah after Miracles...which isn't a deck now...nobody gets hit by this more than us. DnT is still playable, even pretty good, but the meta is going to be much, much worse without Terminus around to sweep up boards of goblin tokens, elves, TNNs.

[AsmodeusDM]

Yeah was looking forward to Harsh Mentor to further punish Miracles and DRS decks....

But now??

I will say that the format seems a lot more open than it used to be; you can actually play creatures (safely) again and even if your deck takes a bit to get going you don't have to worry about getting locked out of the game.

Also (hopefully) fewer games going to time and faster overall tournament experiences.

[Medea_]

Uhhh, I'll start thinking about this immediately. It's going to be a strange new world for the next few weeks. Treat nothing as sacred for the next few weeks. Of immediate thought:

SoWaP likely goes back to the board.
Revoker's stock drops a bit.
4 Color decks likely become the new control deck of choice; thus Crusader gets better, and the red splash is appealing.
Decks that were soft to Terminus get better (Elves)
The sideboard can likely be reevaluated since slots like Gideon will be worse.
Previously fringe playable cards like SotL become more attractive.

[iatee]

The board? There's no way SoWaP is playable now. It's okay in the mirror. That's it.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

True-Name Nemesis gets a lot better. Combo Summer it is.

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[colo]

I guess this will make the black splash more attractive. Decks packing green (with Leovold) will probably be an even more common matchup, which increases Perish's relevance. Black can also more reliably handle True-Name Nemesis (Zaelous Persecution, Orzhov Pontiff), and provides post-board interaction with Combo decks (Thoughtseize).

We're playing in interesting times.

[Medea_]

The board? There's no way SoWaP is playable now. It's okay in the mirror. That's it.

I'm likely still fine with running it as a trump there, but if I think I need room in the sb, it's going. I've loved that card for years, but I'm 100% ready to ditch it. We might need the room for more combo hate.

[Barook]

The only problem I see is Elves having alot less resistance now. Some kind of splash might be a good idea now.

[iatee]

I'm likely still fine with running it as a trump there, but if I think I need room in the sb, it's going. I've loved that card for years, but I'm 100% ready to ditch it. We might need the room for more combo hate.

If the goal is to beat STP decks, and the only STP decks are Stoneblade and DnT, I think Manriki is just better. I don't actually like that card, but I'd still rather play it if I were looking for a trump card for exactly those two matchups.

[Finn]

So, is revoker now a sideboard card?

[iatee]

I mean the meta is gonna be filled with Elves, SnS, Storm, Griselbrand decks, TNN+Jitte, there's plenty of targets.

[Medea_]

I wouldn't be surprised if moving down to two revokers ends up being fine.

[heyoka]

hi,
been playing some time with both one copy of magus of moon and orzov pontiff on SB ( 1 copy magus main) in a 3 cavern human build... strategy might have a time to shine now , with a small splash to both sides

as the romans said ... may you live in interesting times ..

[Nihils]

Assuming Chrome Mox gets a bump in value for us so we can get on the board more quickly against the likely upsurge of combo.

[iatee]

The only problem with Chrome Mox is that it is a terrible card.

[Medea_]

The only problem with Chrome Mox is that it is a terrible card.

This might win as my favorite "Iatee-ism."

[Eldrazi Grandfather]

Bye bye cavern of souls. Serra avenger and aven mindcensor seems very interesting now.

[NeckBird]

Cavern is a liability now. I'm going to cut the two I was playing for a Plains and Horizon Canopy.

To beat TNN, which will be a huge player in the coming metagame, I think Blessed Alliance is a good option. It'll also help with an influx of Burn, meant to beat up BUGx Midrange decks, and UR Delver, meant to beat up on combo decks like Storm that'll see more play. Council's Judgment can be a bit too slow and Alliance is extremely versatile.

Going to a GPT in New York this weekend, but I doubt I'll be on D&T. We're a metagame deck and the metagame is completely unknown right now. This is my favorite deck of all time and I've never played another deck at a Legacy competitive REL tournament. Trying new things out should be fun.

[Marungo]

The only problem with Chrome Mox is that it is a terrible card.

Perfect answer. Love it.

[a tribe called trest]

Back to imperial recruiter for the red splash to support magus of the moat for the inevitable elves onslaught? Enlightened tutor went from being fringe playable to completely unplayable with miracles playing predict. that on the radar again?

[Nihils]

The only problem with Chrome Mox is that it is a terrible card.

I'd personally prefer to keep an open mind. With how much this will shake the meta, some previously tested cards may have improved results. I only mentioned Chrome Mox specifically because I know Medea was testing with them in December. Maybe Diamond? Or Spirit Guides? This is only based on the assumption that the meta will speed up and become more combo based.

[Medea_]

In the dark I'm going to start by adjusting some of my maindeck bears/beaters. Despite my distaste for the cards in the main, it may be time to try out things like Canonist and SotL again.

[iatee]

Yeah I don't think maindeck Ethersworn is crazy.

[Serapha]

I am probably going to experiment more with the Ancient Tomb/Mox Diamond path rather than splashing colors. Not really sure about how to approach it yet, but I am pretty sure it will have some Thalia Stompy flavour with new Thalia main deck and CotV in the board.

This whole thing pisses me off though. Despite being interesting with lots of experimenting and a new meta, I can't help feeling bad for all the Miracle players who invested time and money in the format, just to see it being stripped away. Makes me fear for my own investments in the game.

[Medea_]

Yeah I don't think maindeck Ethersworn is crazy.

It might be a good idea to have some amount of SotL/Canonist as additional two drops, likely at the cost of a Revoker (or multiple?) and maybe a Recruiter. I don't know how much time we'll have for Recruiter in the new world order.

[Finn]

I can see the possibility of folks going to try a blue-black control deck to somewhat replace Miracles. And I feel confident that there will be people messing with Scroll Rack (talk about time to invest in a card). But my guess is that we just returned to a world in which sweepers are few and far between. I see the logic in a toolbox until we have some sort of coalesced meta, but we have certainly come to a point in which acceleration in the least accelerating color feels extra important now.

[from Cairo]

So, is revoker now a sideboard card?

Aren't the future DTBs - Sneak and Show, UBxx DRS/TNN/Jitte pile, UBxx Delver, Storm and Elves?

Feel like if the TNN strategy is the best fair blue control thing to be doing we're terrified of it wearing an active Jitte, Sneak and Griselbrand, DRS in every fair deck, all the Elves cards, LED, and the mirror.

Feel like Revoker sucks vs Delver and Lands like always, but otherwise hits the same 70% of the format.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[iatee]

If you need to play bad cards in DnT for it to be playable, then you probably should just be playing another deck...ideally one that doesn't have to play bad cards.

I like the idea of at least one Ethersworn main to start - Ethersworn's good vs all of those 'I wish I had a Chrome Mox' decks, while also having the worst case scenario of 'well, it's a 2/2' instead of 'this card is literally worse than drawing a land'.

[redtwister]

Imperial seems strongest, as Magus of the Moon is even better, Sudden Demise is value again, but we have to go leaner against combo both main and side. Might also need to increase flyer depth a bit because Delver ought to get somewhat stronger.

I think Palace Jailer is out, and Spirit of the Labyrinth and, as already noted, Ethersworn Canonist are in the main.

Not sure what else comes out and goes in. I feel like Gideon and Pia and Kiran both get worse because they aren't as much value at 4cmc and they don't deal with TNN, which is going to be all the places.

Also, Lands and Eldrazi improve because Eldrazi has turn 1 Chalice of the Void and aggression and doesn't face 4 Terminus maindeck now, while Lands was heavily pressed by Miracles and is free to do dirty things

[infiniteJ]

Personally, I think with less need to run revoker, less need to run cavern, and more tnn and delver running around, it might be a good time to revisit avenger. I could even see a world where we go to 22 land and more 2 drops. Otherwise, I like the idea of a splash for red or black to fight elves.

4 Mom
4 SFM
2 Revoker
3-4 Avenger
4 Thalia
4 Flickerwisp
2 Recruiter
1 Prelate
1 mirran crusader
0-1 palace jailer/spice

4 Vial
4 STP
Jitte, Sofi, Bskull

Bunch of Plains

SB:
4 Canonist
2 Path to Exile
2 Rest in Peace
2 Containment Priest
1 Leonin Relic warder
1 Gideon
2 Council's Judgement
1 Palace Jailer

[Medea_]

Just to throw rough ideas out there:

Monocolored toolbox approach:
Lands
10 Plains
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
Creatures
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Vryn Wingmare
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Flickerwisp
2 Mirran Crusader

Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 AEther Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Sideboard
2 Path to Exile
2 Containment Priest
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Council's Judgment
2 Rest in Peace
1 Pithing Needle
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Leonin Relic-Warder

I've largely believed that Cavern was only playable in the deck because of Miracles. With that gone, I'm fine with trying other utility lands for a little while.

I think diversifying the hate a little bit might be nice in the first week or two while everyone is experimenting. This cuts a Revoker, Flickerwisp, Crusader, and Avenger from my previous build.

This still feels a little anemic, so maybe splashing is correct:

Lands
4 Plains
2 Flooded Strand
1 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
1 Arid Mesa
3 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
Creatures
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Flickerwisp
2 Mirran Crusader

Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 AEther Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Sideboard
2 Path to Exile
2 Containment Priest
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Council's Judgment
2 Rest in Peace
1 Pithing Needle
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Orzhov Pontiff

Kambal seems good against combo as well as various control decks, so I don't hate trying that out again. Pontiff seems like it will clean up TNN, Elves, and other annoying things that aren't getting swept away by Terminus anymore.

[vtml1984]

I have a feeling we are going to flooded with Elves. Is there anyway (without sacrificing our BUG match) that we can tune to bring that match to even? Or is it just a lost cause? I like the look of the black splash, but I would want to run 2 copies of Zealous. Although at that point we are tipping into Dead Guy Ale ground.

[gh0st_b1rd]

I am confident that "Imperial Taxes" has a fantastic BUG match up as wells as a fighting chance vs Elves thanks to Sudden Demise. Even without Sudden Demise, but Path to Exiles instead, Elves seemed fine after board. I would say I win around 40% of the time vs Elves with PTEs and a Needle after board and am OK with that.

[jcj7]

I have my first tournament with DnT this week and am now strongly considering the red splash due to the large amounts of BUG and little combo in my area. Does anyone have a potential list with the banning sale now? I know Iatee has had a lot of success with the splash

[Medea_]

I have my first tournament with DnT this week and am now strongly considering the red splash due to the large amounts of BUG and little combo in my area. Does anyone have a potential list with the banning sale now? I know Iatee has had a lot of success with the splash

Iatee's list from the last SCG Open is a great starting point.

[geneyquakes]

I am quite happy that the very last round in my last tournament I played with Top legal, which finished only a half hour before the B&R announcement, was a match against Miracles that finished 2-1 in my favor, went 45 minutes, and involved me grinding them to nothing with Vial, Karakas, and Cavern.

I have been on the right side of some of some truly magical Aether Vials, and on the wrong side of some brutal Terminuses in my day, but it is nice that my final memory of the deck will be a glorious time when I cast Pia and Kiran Nalaar 5 times in the same game.

[geneyquakes]

I have my first tournament with DnT this week and am now strongly considering the red splash due to the large amounts of BUG and little combo in my area. Does anyone have a potential list with the banning sale now? I know Iatee has had a lot of success with the splash


As Medea_ mentioned, Iatee's list from SCG is pretty good starting point, but you will want to change a few cards. The core of the deck isn't really going anywhere (though there will be some very big changes in the future, I am fairly certain). I am not certain about what an optimal build looks like, and will not for some time, but I have a few thoughts.

Palace Jailer in the main seems like a liability, while I think Pia and Kiran in the main could be quite good. My gut says Mirran Crusader's stock is rising, I could see 2 in the main. Pithing Needle is still a versatile answer for a lot of things but is less important with less Jace and Top. Sword of War and Peace could probably get the axe. Ethersworn Canonist in the main isn't crazy, but also might not be necessary if there isn't a lot of combo. All in all, I think that in the long term there will be plenty of changes, but for a tournament in the immediate future if you take that base list and think "I should change between 5 and 10 cards, I can ignore Miracles and think more about BUG and Elves" then you will be pretty close. In addition, if you have a rough idea of your local meta, then that isn't going to change all that much except for the Miracles pilots. People with multiple decks might pick one for certain reasons, and people with only one deck might play with their sideboard, but in general changing cards or decks takes both time and money. None of this will be an exact science, because this is the biggest change that has happened to Legacy in a long time.

[gh0st_b1rd]

If you can find a way to make P+K work in the 75 cards your late game ceiling is going to be very, very high.

[redtwister]

I suppose the question with the new meta will be how susceptible manabases will continue to be to disruption from Magus of the Moon. Miracles was running Blood Moon in the side and manabases were already super greedy. Without Miracles, and if Painter does not reappear, it is possible manabases get even greedier, or at least do not get less greedy.

At the same time, TNN will become even more prominent among the mid-range UBx decks, whether BUG or Esper Deathblade or Bant Stoneblade or whatever. Jund probably actually gets worse for lack of counterspells to deal with combo.

Delver decks should get a boost, as tempo revives. Grixis is probably here to stay, but BUG Delver and maybe other variants, should be back. I don't know if Infect benefits a huge amount, someone familiar with how that deck was dealt with by Miracles would have to say.

The mid-range TNN mid-range and tempo decks share a common aspect, even if their gameplans are a bit different: enough draw and counter/hand destruction to limit combo, plus enough threat power to get the job done either with inevitability (TNN) or speed (Delver).

Elves and other combo will obviously get a boost.

Among aggro, I expect Burn gets a boost too, so back to mainboard Batterskull.

If Lands and Eldrazi benefit from this, as I expect they will since Miracles suppressed Lands and Chalice on 0 or 1 Turn 1 will become much better against, well, everything, I feel like Imperial will still largely be better than "Black Death" and Taxes because I expect to need to be able to attack manabases.

However, if the big winners are TNN and Elves, then this could be the time for Kambral, Consul of Allocation and Orzhov Pontiff might be the way to go.

I am tentatively sleeving this up, keeping 2 Cavern of Souls because I think resolving the humans in this build is still huge, especially Thalia and Canonist. I added a Plateau because of Sudden Demise. I would just remind everyone that there are cards not Orzhov Pontiff for dealing with TNN, just mostly not so elegant and recursive e.g. Holy Light. There is still also the question of whether or not 2x Cavern on humans plus 4 Vials allows us to cast Pontiff somewhat consistently anyway out of the sideboard.

Lands 23
4 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
2 Windswept Heath
2 Arid Mesa
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Plateau

Creatures 26
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Magus of the Moon
3 Flickerwisp
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Vryn Wingmare
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Phyrexian Revoker

Spells 11
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 AEther Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Sideboard
2 Path to Exile
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Council's Judgment
2 Sudden Demise
2 Rest in Peace
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Pithing Needle

[colo]

Among aggro, I expect Burn gets a boost too, so back to mainboard Batterskull.


I've been playing D&T since 2009, and I have to ask this in all seriousness: When has Batterskull ever been relevant in the Burn matchup? As soon as you fetch it up via SFM, they'll burn the little Artificer, and you end up with a 5- or even 6-mana equipment in your hand...

[iatee]

I don't think Sudden Demise is playable with 6 red sources. With 6 red sources you only have a 54% chance at having one in your opening hand. A lot has to go right for you to have one of those Demise + a red source + more mana. Realistically, I would probably want to play something like 9 or 10 red sources before playing Demise. The nice thing about playing red humans is that you get 4 extra 'red sources' with your Vials, and x number with your Caverns. Obviously Sudden Demise is a great card and we all want to watch Elves players lose, but you need to be realistic about how often you will actually get to blow people out with it.

This is also why I don't think discard is ever playable if you are playing a black splash. Obviously think splashing is great and probably just straight up the correct way to build DnT at this point since mono-w just doesn't have great answers to TNN/Elves. But we're still playing 4 Wastelands 4 Ports, and there are some limitations with that manabase.

I think going hard on pingers in red (i.e. >1, maybe consider 1 Goblin Sharpshooter again...) and hard on Orzhov Pontiff in black is probably a good place to be.

[iatee]

I've been playing D&T since 2009, and I have to ask this in all seriousness: When has Batterskull ever been relevant in the Burn matchup? As soon as you fetch it up via SFM, they'll burn the little Artificer, and you end up with a 5- or even 6-mana equipment in your hand...

Sometimes you'll have a spot, like EOT Vial in a SfM and they're tapped out, or you managed to get a Mom online first. Also I feel like 50% of the time I play against a Burn player I play SfM and they say "what does that card do?" so it's not like you can count on them to make the right play.

[Medea_]

I don't think Sudden Demise is playable with 6 red sources. With 6 red sources you only have a 54% chance at having one in your opening hand. A lot has to go right for you to have one of those Demise + a red source + more mana. Realistically, I would probably want to play something like 9 or 10 red sources before playing Demise. The nice thing about playing red humans is that you get 4 extra 'red sources' with your Vials, and x number with your Caverns. Obviously Sudden Demise is a great card and we all want to watch Elves players lose, but you need to be realistic about how often you will actually get to blow people out with it.

This is also why I don't think discard is ever playable if you are playing a black splash. Obviously think splashing is great and probably just straight up the correct way to build DnT at this point since mono-w just doesn't have great answers to TNN/Elves But we're still playing 4 Wastelands 4 Ports.

I think going hard on pingers in red (i.e. >1, maybe consider 1 Goblin Sharpshooter again...) and hard on Orzhov Pontiff in black is probably a good place to be.

Yeah, I really agree with this on pretty much every front. I think that if you splash red, you really need to cut Caverns if you want to play Sudden Demise. I'm not sure if pingers are better or worse than Sudden Demise, but the mana is definitely better if you choose pingers since Vial gives you 4 more ways to play it.

[gh0st_b1rd]

Cut the 4th Plains for a 5th fetchland if you want the 7th red source. I had been playing without Sudden Demise in tue SB for awhile now but am sure the only decision I will be making going forwaed is trying to fit in a 2nd Needle in the SB.

[Medea_]

Cut the 4th Plains for a 5th fetchland if you want the 7th red source. I had been playing without Sudden Demise in tue SB for awhile now but am sure the only decision I will be making going forwaed is trying to fit in a 2nd Needle in the SB.

What are you anticipating will rise that you want the Needle for? I'm not disagreeing, just curious.

[redtwister]

@iatee and Medea_
Fair enough. So... short of going to 3 plains, dropping Caverns and adding a fetch and 3rd Plateau, which gets us to 8 red sources main, do we have a way to do this?

this was Bahra's old manabase, btw:
1 Cavern of Souls
3 Flooded Strand
2 Karakas
3 Plains
2 Plateau
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath

Or do we have to have another answer?

[iatee]

The biggest appeal of Needle was that it was a Phyrexian Revoker that didn't get Terminused. I think I would rather play more Revokers now (possibly in the board) rather than Pithing Needle. Revoker way better vs Elves too.

[iatee]

redtwister, I think I would rather just not wreck the manabase and play a bunch of otherwise good (creature) sb cards against Elves. Sudden Demise doesn't have enough application elsewhere, IMO. Who knows though, maybe Elves actually is the most popular deck and we have to totally retool things.

Canonists/Revokers/Priests/Ping/maybe even another Spirit of the Lab or our old pal Frank. Get to a place where you have relevant disruption t2 and t3 nearly 100% of the time.

[redtwister]

@iatee
Sure, that's fair. I am talking week one, really, when I expect Elves players to reappear en masse.

After that, have to see how the format plays out. Honestly, we haven't had a format without Miracles in what, 3 years or more?

If I went to creatures, I think want Aven Mindcensor, especially if Stoneblade is back, to inhibit opponent searches as much as getting lands. It would be a very nice supplement to Orzhoff Pontiff in WB, as well.

[Medea_]

Maybe something like:
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Flickerwisp
3 Magus of the Moon
1 Mirran Crusader
4 Mother of Runes
2 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Vryn Wingmare
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Lands (23)

4 Plains
6 fetches
2 Plateau
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Karakas
Spells (11)

4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Sideboard

1 Pithing Needle
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Cunning Sparkmage
2 Containment Priest
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Rest in Peace
2 Path to Exile
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Council's Judgment
1 Mirran Crusader

[redtwister]

@Medea_
Isn't Sanctum Prelate still quite good?

[iatee]

I could see Aven Mindcensor for sure. Plus there's cool new art, which is another good reason to play the card.

[Medea_]

@Medea_
Isn't Sanctum Prelate still quite good?

I don't know. I really feel like that's a card that I played for Miracles, truth be told. It's fine elsewhere, but if I'm going to be adding more hate like Aven Mindcensor, Wingmare, SotL, and/or Canonist, I don't know if I want it. The slots have to cave somewhere, and I'm not sure where. I'm not sure which set of idiots is quite right. It's probably fine to keep as a one of somewhere, that list was something that I just quickly sketched.

[_WD40_]

I don't know. I really feel like that's a card that I played for Miracles, truth be told. It's fine elsewhere, but if I'm going to be adding more hate like Aven Mindcensor, Wingmare, SotL, and/or Canonist, I don't know if I want it. The slots have to cave somewhere, and I'm not sure where. I'm not sure which set of idiots is quite right. It's probably fine to keep as a one of somewhere, that list was something that I just quickly sketched.

I have been playing death and taxes for a long time. I have followed this thread and thraben university very closely and have been paying particularly close attention to all the threads the past couple days since the ban. Here are my 2 cents:

Has everybody forgotten why we stopped playing wingmare and sotL and mindcensor in the first place? They are all 1 toughness creatures. With Miracles being gone, and an uptick in TNN, everyone and there brother will be bringing in -1/-1 hate. That makes all 1 toughness creatures (especially utility creatures) go down in stock....in my opinion. I have already heard on multiple different decks forums that DnT is now the leading control deck out there. Everyone will be gunning for us and there will be even more dread of nights in the sideboard. I feel like all those 1 toughness utility creatures are for sure the wrong way to go. That being said, i think the red splash might be the way to go. Magus is a 2 toughness creature. And ethersworn is also a 2 toughness creature. My deck going forward would look something like this + or - a few cards once the meta gets worked out:

23:
3 plains
1 flooded strand
1 arid mesa
2 marsh flats
2 windswept heath
1 cavern of souls
3 plateus
4 wastelands
4 ports
2 karakas

26:
2 Magus of the Moon
4 Thalias
4 Stoneforge
3 Flickerwisp
4 Mothers
1 Ethersworn
1 Sanctum Prelate
2 Recruiters
2 Revokers
2 Mirran Crusaders
1 Serra Avenger

11:
1 Batterskull
1 SoFi
1 Jitte
4 Vials
4 STP

SB:
1 Pia and Nal
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Sudden Demise
1 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn
2 Surgical
1 Path to Exile
1 Gideon
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Council's
1 Rest in Peace
1 Enlightened Tutor

[Medea_]

That's a good point. One of the things Joe Lossett talked about in his stream was how much sideboards are going to shift. Many decks were specifically dedicating hate towards Miracles (ourselves included), and those slots are going to get freed up. That may mean we may face more -1/-1 hate in the coming days, as decks that previously couldn't afford to run hate against us now can. It may be that another deck (e.g. Elves) gets the target painted on its back, but we'll likely still get caught in the crossfire.

[_WD40_]

That's a good point. One of the things Joe Lossett talked about in his stream was how much sideboards are going to shift. Many decks were specifically dedicating hate towards Miracles (ourselves included), and those slots are going to get freed up. That may mean we may face more -1/-1 hate in the coming days, as decks that previously couldn't afford to run hate against us now can. It may be that another deck (e.g. Elves) gets the target painted on its back, but we'll likely still get caught in the crossfire.

Yep we will see an uptick in:

Toxic Deluge (especially this one)
Dread of Night
Engineered Plague
Marsh Casualties

[gh0st_b1rd]

What are you anticipating will rise that you want the Needle for? I'm not disagreeing, just curious.

Wirewood Symbiote on the draw and more chances of finding an answer to Sneak Attack. Also an answer to Planeswalkers without having to rely on Revokers is nice.

Moving forward I will continue to keep 4x Revokers in the main due to the ubiquity of DRS.

[colo]

With Terminus as the unarguably most final and probably best removal out of the picture (I hope...), critters like Epochrasite and Kitchen Finks deserve a closer look, too.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Also remember how good Prelate is against Lands. Naming 2 shuts down a LOT of their most important spells. Honestly I think I am where the splashes are so minimal I will do black main, red side. I'm liking 1 prelate, 1 kambal, 1 Pontiff main with 1-2 magus and 1 Harsh Mentor in the board. 1 Zealous Persecution in board if i can find room also.

Anyone else considering 2 jitte in the 75?

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[Medea_]

Yeah, I think everyone and their mom expects more Lands, so there does need to be a Prelate in there.

2 Jitte probably isn't unreasonable, but I don't know if it's necessary if we already hate on Elves in a bunch of other ways. We aren't trying to make that match amazing, just reasonable.

[iatee]

Yep we will see an uptick in:

Toxic Deluge (especially this one)
Dread of Night
Engineered Plague
Marsh Casualties

If anything I think there will be fewer Dread of Nights now that that card is 100% for DnT / has no application elsewhere. I agree about the other stuff, especially Toxic Deluge, which is now legacy's best wrath. Unfortunately that card is really hard to play around. People are going to be gunning for Elves, and unfortunately a lot of the best cards vs Elves are good against us too.


With Terminus as the unarguably most final and probably best removal out of the picture (I hope...), critters like Epochrasite and Kitchen Finks deserve a closer look, too.

I'm not sure either of those cards are exactly what we need, but I think you have a really good point that I haven't heard anyone else mention until now (and is relevant outside of just DnT). DnT is the only remaining widely played StP deck. There will probably be an uptick in Stoneblade decks just cause people need to do something with their Tundras, but it's also possible that they fall off because they're not good. But big picture - tons of otherwise strong creatures that were soft to exile/tucking effects might become playable across legacy.

[Medea_]

I'm currently writing about how the removal suite of Legacy is about to really shake things up. We just aren't going to see a ton of StP. We'll get some Stoneblade, I'm sure, but Terminus was really the reason to be in white for Miracles.

[staticgripeed]

I'm curious as the opinions about Caverns now. With Miracles being one of the biggest reasons to play them and splashing black or red likely on the horizon are people going to be cutting them.

I am planning on picking up 2 plateaus and tossing in some white fetches for Magus of the Moons and maybe test Harsh Mentor ( not as hopeful since I thought it would be really good against top ) Additionally, I'll probably being on one of the pingers as opposed to sudden demise but that's me.