[Deck] Death and Taxes

[iatee]

Not sure "Have you played these bad decks that do this same thing?" is the strongest argument.

(I don't even consider playing Chalice because I would rather not play legacy than play a Chalice deck. Card is dumb and should be banned.)

[Mad Mat]

"But Chalice has terrible synergy with vial". Have you played Merfolk/Goblins? It's an occasional nonbo at worst because most games you don't draw them simultaneously. If I draw both an Aether Vial and Chalice, I typically play the Vial first. This deck is content with playing a turn 2 Chalice. Against a blue deck, if I have an Ancient Tomb I will typically play the Vial first to get around Daze anyhow. It's not the best Chalice deck (as in playing it turn 1) but that's because it's playing other powerful 1-drops for consistency.
That's not the main problem with vial + chalice. The main problem is that you're running twice as much dead top decks as you would in a deck running only one of them.


When I play Eldrazi, it feels super vulnerable without a turn 1-2 Chalice.
Any deck with chalice is super vulnerable without a turn 1-2 chalice. Chalice is a terrible topdeck and warps your deck into omitting a whole segment of broken spells.


Your overall argument is telling me what (some) decks with Chalice do and using this as a set criteria for other Chalice decks. This is a bad argument.
It's not about set criteria. The argument is not: decks with chalice (that get good results right now) do that right now, so that's the only strategy possible. It's: decks with chalice do that right now, what do you bring to the table to trump their approach?


"Kambal is the card that can kill them even if they have all the answers" You're telling me a card that takes away 2 life after taking a removal spell to its face is that dominant?
If your opponent has removal for every threat you play, you never stood a chance of winning that game. Otherwise, he is another must-kill creature who still does damage even if he gets killed and is much more trouble if you have karakas.


You're telling me he is good in the late game (say turn 6+) even when that's when he loses most of its value?
How does he lose value in the late game?


You're saying it's a good card when your opponent is hellbent so aren't you already winning by that point?
Hellbent, what? Where did that come from?


Why do you need a 3-drop that probably can't attack and instead deals 2 damage based on what your opponent is doing?
Because your role is to pressure your opponent so that he has to be doing something. Otherwise, you will inevitably lose against most decks in this format.


But wait towards the end of your paragraph you're saying this is a card that actually saves you inches away from death, despite the fact that it's a 2/2 body that is terrible on a losing board.
It's a card that seals games that you would have otherwise lost because your opponent took control of the game. It's not a card that wins you games because you're facing overwhelming board pressure. I never said that.


Again, you leave me very confused my friend. Overall, the argument you're presenting seems to be that Kambal is a good card in a few very specific clutch situations, which to me sounds like it is a bad card.
I said that he's good basically every time unless you're facing certain combo decks (or the mirror) and unless you're in a losing position already due to board presence. That's not very specific and narrow, it's most of the games you will play and still stand a chance of winning. Kambal sucks if you're facing down double flipped delver. Kambal sucks if you're facing down a turn 1 Griselbrand. Kambal sucks if you're facing down six Monk tokens. Kambal sucks if you're facing down True-Name with Jitte. Kambal sucks if you're facing down Jace with 4+ cards in hand. But about any card you could play in this deck sucks in those situations. Those are just certain losses.

[grayryker]

Chalice is not a dead top deck. Have you ever played ANY chalice deck? I've locked down people with a vial on 2 and casting chalice on x=2. Note that this deck plays 4 Cavern of Souls so I can still cast spells through my own Chalice. Even a late game chalice on 1 is powerful, locking people out of cantrips, any cheap removals, delver/shaman draws, etc. If your best argument against chalice is it increases the number of bad top decks, sorry it is hard to take your arguments seriously.

"What do you bring to the table..." Actually this was not the argument you were making at all.

On Kambal, I'm saying he loses value the more you wait on playing him because this is numerically less activations you'll get out of him. I thought it was a pretty simple explanation. I can't think of a single match-up except Burn and Storm where this card would be clearly more dominant than another slot: Mirran Crusader, Serra Avenger, hell even Fiendslayer Paladin, Magus of the Moon, Prelate, etc. If your overall argument is that Kambal locks things down on a board parity, hell you could make the same arguments for any of the other cards except they can actually attack through a board.

I'm willing to test him in a variety of match-ups. Might take a few weeks to test. My mana base can support Kambal with minor adjustments.

[grayryker]

Not sure "Have you played these bad decks that do this same thing?" is the strongest argument.

(I don't even consider playing Chalice because I would rather not play legacy than play a Chalice deck. Card is dumb and should be banned.)

That wasn't the argument. The argument was vial+ chalice work in creature-centric decks. You can be a total snob and say Merfolk/Burn are 'bad' decks but the fact is playing Chalice makes these decks better than they would be in its absence.

And your 2nd paragraph doesn't help hide your immaturity or prejudice. Chalice is one of the biggest reasons why many non-blue fair decks exist and it should be played if it makes a deck better. I've won games just from Delver players probing my hand and unable to answer a Chalice.

[iatee]

On Kambal, I'm saying he loses value the more you wait on playing him because this is numerically less activations you'll get out of him. I thought it was a pretty simple explanation. I can't think of a single match-up except Burn and Storm where this card would be clearly more dominant than another slot: Mirran Crusader, Serra Avenger, hell even Fiendslayer Paladin, Magus of the Moon, Prelate, etc. If your overall argument is that Kambal locks things down on a board parity, hell you could make the same arguments for any of the other cards except they can actually attack through a board.

I have played with the card a bunch and it is a beast. Every Brainstorm turning into a Drain Life means you don't even really have to attack. He's also protected by Karakas and Cavernable. Vs Delver decks if you can resolve and protect it it's way better than any of those cards - and even if they have removal on the spot the Drain Life changes the clock.


And your 2nd paragraph doesn't help hide your immaturity or prejudice. Chalice is one of the biggest reasons why many non-blue fair decks exist and it should be played if it makes a deck better. I've won games just from Delver players probing my hand and unable to answer a Chalice.

Why would I need to help hide my prejudice when I'm explicitly spelling out my prejudice? Yeah, beating Delver players by resolving exactly one card is dumb and not fun and I'd rather play some other format than play a Stompy deck.

[WashableWater1]

Does anyone have experience with Dust Bowl in the current meta, specifically against Czech Pile or straight Grixis? I'm thinking of trying one out as a way to out Wasteland the decks that have both mostly non-basics and a higher land count. It also might help with those games that go long, since you can turn all your lands after 4 or 5 into Wastelands. Since I'm on Flagstones and Cataclysm's there's some synergy with it already built in, and I'm thinking of trying to cutting a Cavern for one. Thoughts?

[grayryker]

I have played with the card a bunch and it is a beast. Every Brainstorm turning into a Drain Life means you don't even really have to attack. He's also protected by Karakas and Cavernable. Vs Delver decks if you can resolve and protect it it's way better than any of those cards - and even if they have removal on the spot the Drain Life changes the clock.


'r
Why would I need to help hide my prejudice when I'm explicitly spelling out my prejudice? Yeah, beating Delver players by resolving exactly one card is dumb and not fun and I'd rather play some other format than play a Stompy deck.

Not just Delver but a whole range of decks flat out lose to a turn 1-2 Chalice. I don't see why the prejudice exists when you're playing a deck that wants to have as much lockdown as possible and prevent your opponent from playing magic.

I'm going to test Kambal, but again, I find it skeptical to think it's reliable. So far the argument seems to be "this card helps you when you have 2-3 other threats on board with pressure and your opponent needs to use cantrips to find answers for what you have" which sounds like a pretty weak card to me. A 2/2 body sounds like a huge liability on offense and defense, and any decent opponent in a tight race can play around it, rather than having the 'lockdown effect' you guys claim it does. It kinda reminds me of Vexing Devil. Both its effect are decent except the moment your opponent can choose to play around it, those effects lose tremendous value. Winning most fair games for me doesn't come down to life points but board presence; hell I could be way down on life points and still be winning because getting to superior board presence is what matters.

[NegatorITA]

Guys,
HI,
I'm back into D&T since like 5 years of playing all the other decks.
Kinda build it just not to waste the cards I've around TBH, and since I don't have rishadan, I was curious to run either ghost quarter list, or splashed list.

atm I've took this link list (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=23295&iddeck=180587) as reference, and I'll build it like this:


2 Mirran Crusader
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Sanctum Prelate
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Flickerwisp
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Aether Vial


2 Cavern of Souls
3 Karakas
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Wasteland
1 horizon canopy
2 flagstones of trokair
7 plains

side
2 Containment Priest
2 Council's Judgment
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Path to Exile
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Rest in Peace
1 Spirit of the labyrinth

I've yet to play it, will likely be able to game in the next week, I was wondering if I were missing some key sinergy in the ghost quarter builds (I like the idea of mindcesor and ghostquarter), or If I was missing some sideboard cards

[Copperhead]

Hey all,

Looking for some advice on playing against Czech Pile. I've been out of the loop a little while and played against it for the first time at a team tournament this past weekend. We ended up playing that team in our 4th round and again in the quarterfinals -- I tried different strategies and sideboard and really got blown out both times. I certainly made some play errors (redtwister was there and saw a number of them) but overall I struggled on the tactics. My list for reference:

Creatures:
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Mother of Runes
4 Flickerwisp
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Serra Avenger
1 Sanctum Prelate

Spells:
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

Lands:
10 Plains
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Faerie Macabre
2 Council's Judgment
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Pithing Needle
2 Containment Priest
2 Path to Exile
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

I read through Medea's match-up analysis after the first loss. I suppose my main questions are:

(1) How does one "play around" Kolaghan's Command? Most often I was blown out by K-Command, Snap-K Command.

(2) What does sideboarding look like? I brought in Gideon, RIP, and SoLaS of which I only saw the Sword. Obviously RIP would have solved the Snapcaster problem if I had seen it. I took out Prelate, a couple of Revokers and one piece of equipment, maybe an StP or an Avenger? Mostly I was at a loss for keeping the equipment on board long enough to get in the necessary damage. Crusader was an all-star but hard to keep on the board against 2x K-Command, 2x Lightning Bolt, and the Snapcasters.

Thanks in advance.

[Medea_]

@NegatorITA

Your list is reasonable. Keep is mind the GQ is largely a budget substitution for Port. Against DRS and basic-heavy decks in particular, you will notice the difference in how those cards perform.

@Copperhead

I usually board out Revokers and StP for Gideon, RiP, SoLaS, and Council's Judgment.

It's hard to describe how to play around K. Command. Your opponent is always going to cast it and get a 2 for 1, but you can give them worse 2 for 1s or make them waste their mana. If you've got the read that it is coming, you can hold back some artifacts or play your worse artifacts first to bait it. If your opponent has Gitaxian Probed you and knows they need to use it to beat something like a SoLaS, you can pressure them with creatures until you force them to tap low. That can give you a chance to connect with SoLaS once, replacing itself in terms of value. Similarly, if they pass the turn with K. Command mana up, you can just play in a way that gives them the least value for casting it now, or force them to wait a bit on it.

Regarding Fiendslayer Paladin:

I don't remember who advocated this as a bullet for the Czech Pile/Grixis matchups, but I don't think it is worth slots in the 75. I ran it through two leagues in the maindeck just to get a feel for how the card performed generally. It helps you *not lose* the game, but doesn't particularly help *win* the game. While it is borderline impossible to get off the board, it doesn't actually beat most of their stuff. A young Pyromancer goes wider than it in just a few turns, forcing a board stall. Similarly, a couple of DRS or other dorks stops it from attacking. With a Jitte or SoFaI, it doesn't actually beat through or stall a Gurmag Angler. The lifelink didn't end up being as relevant as I'd hoped it would be, as he eventually got walled out and I died to a hoard of tokens. In more general matchups like Eldrazi, it again got walled easily unless I had equipment, and unlike THC, it couldn't work together with another first strike creature to take out a Reality Smasher.

[iatee]

I think the question is 'if not that then what?' Mystic Crusader is the only thing I could see being better - it can reliably attack, but it's harder to turn on threshold with Mono-W.

[IRS]

@NegatorITA

Your list is reasonable. Keep is mind the GQ is largely a budget substitution for Port. Against DRS and basic-heavy decks in particular, you will notice the difference in how those cards perform.

@Copperhead

I usually board out Revokers and StP for Gideon, RiP, SoLaS, and Council's Judgment.

It's hard to describe how to play around K. Command. Your opponent is always going to cast it and get a 2 for 1, but you can give them worse 2 for 1s or make them waste their mana. If you've got the read that it is coming, you can hold back some artifacts or play your worse artifacts first to bait it. If your opponent has Gitaxian Probed you and knows they need to use it to beat something like a SoLaS, you can pressure them with creatures until you force them to tap low. That can give you a chance to connect with SoLaS once, replacing itself in terms of value. Similarly, if they pass the turn with K. Command mana up, you can just play in a way that gives them the least value for casting it now, or force them to wait a bit on it.

Regarding Fiendslayer Paladin:

I don't remember who advocated this as a bullet for the Czech Pile/Grixis matchups, but I don't think it is worth slots in the 75. I ran it through two leagues in the maindeck just to get a feel for how the card performed generally. It helps you *not lose* the game, but doesn't particularly help *win* the game. While it is borderline impossible to get off the board, it doesn't actually beat most of their stuff. A young Pyromancer goes wider than it in just a few turns, forcing a board stall. Similarly, a couple of DRS or other dorks stops it from attacking. With a Jitte or SoFaI, it doesn't actually beat through or stall a Gurmag Angler. The lifelink didn't end up being as relevant as I'd hoped it would be, as he eventually got walled out and I died to a hoard of tokens. In more general matchups like Eldrazi, it again got walled easily unless I had equipment, and unlike THC, it couldn't work together with another first strike creature to take out a Reality Smasher.

What do you think of running a 1/1 Crusader/Paladin En-Vec split? I feel like ProR/ProB could be reasonable. Does not die to Push/Bolt and can block Angler for days.

[Medea_]

I think the question is 'if not that then what?' Mystic Crusader is the only thing I could see being better - it can reliably attack, but it's harder to turn on threshold with Mono-W.

That's what I'm trying to figure out. The answer might be that nothing is better. Mystic Crusader seems okay, but when you add the fact that you'll be siding in RiP in many of those matchups, it feels mediocre. It's also not a human for Cavern, for what that's worth. I'll keep testing things in the flex slots as I do my leagues. Mystic Crusader, Aerial Responder, and Paladin En-Vec are the next couple of things I'm going to toy around with. I don't think any of them are going to be great, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

It's also possible that the answer ends up being going back to an Avenger/Crusader heavy list and trying to close out the games quickly instead of dragging the games on with something that they can't kill.

[grayryker]

I don't think Mystic Crusader is very good. It's not just bad with Rest in Peace - it's bad against any Deathrite Shaman deck. There is a reason why Nimble Mongoose isn't played anymore.

I'm currently testing a toolbox based human deck and it's great to have the option of having 1 Fiendslayer Paladin to search out, not just for the Grixis Delver/Control but against any deck dedicated to red removals like UR delver, Burn, Lands, etc. Of course the card isn't good against Angler or Pyromancer, but choosing between Paladin and Miran comes down to boardstate. This deck struggles with Pyromancer no matter what cards you play, until you start siding in things like Orzhov Pontiff and Holy Light.

Grixis Delver plays 4 bolt and 1-2 forked bolt, so if you really need a threat to stick, Paladin may be the better option. Against Czech Pile, Miran Crusader is the better card most of the time due to their lack of pure red removal spells. Take note that if any of these builds play Snapcaster Mage, you should consider the higher probability of Miran Crusader dying.

[rostov]

Story time. Decklist included at the end, criticisms for its construct very appreciated.

K2, my youngest 13yo son, attended a Sunday national side event of legacy that gives out a Underground Sea as top prize. This is a big deal in our small country as getting something like this sent in would incur taxes and thus more expensive. Because it's based here on our small hometown and most of the legacy players in the bigger cities usually don't take a flight down just for this, the attendance was low at 15 players but still 5 towns represented. For time consideration purposes it was left at 4 rounds but capped to top 4 elimination.

Very unfortunately due to work and related incidents I could not join him with omnishow to work towards the top as a team, so the mother fetched him and had to hit the brakes real hard at one stage on the way there, which resulted in a box tumbling forward from some part of the car.

[conversation in car]
Mum: "What's the sound? Can you find it?"
K2: (morning grumpiness)
Mum: "Do it already, cmon"
K2: "found it. purple box. dad must've left it there"
Mum: "ok bring it along"
K2: (grumbles)
Mum: "Do it! Just in case! And what's inside?"
K2: (looks inside, and quitely closes it and puts it in bag)

Turned out I accidentally left it there the day before, and it contained all the DnT support cards for both legacy and modern. So he was happy to bring it along after all.

[online chat]
Me: !@#!@%$!@$etcetc!@#!@$@! really angry about work and sorry I can't join you blah blah to compete for this as a blah blah blah
K2: Dad. The deck is wrong.
Me: What do you mean? It's the same list you used in GP Vegas 17!
K2: Add one more horizon
Me: ?!?! Are you sure? You had one in vegas, and I thought 2 was a lot. You'll lose quite a few points of life with 3?
K2: Meh. +1 Eigango
Me: 7 plains?! Blood moon against you?
K2: Don't want THC. Remove 1 Flickerwisp
Me: You putting sanctum?
K2: 4 mirrans, 3 serras
Me: Holy are you setting up a prison or are you being really aggro
K2: brb. Updating decklists.

[Game Report]
I got this really late last night and he was tired and had a headache and could not remember much. Because I wasn't there and there were no friendlies with him this is all I got:

R1: Dredge #1. Not quite a good player with it.
G1: Crushed him (newbie)
G2: He went off on turn 2
G3: tie (time, he played slow all the way)
(by this point K2 was really angry cuz round 1 tie due to time was due to opponent inexperience)

R2: BUG
G1: no FoW, toxic deluge, just attacked aggressively, mirran crusader + sword
G2: he controlled the board right from the start and won
G3: ate opponent for breakfast. sanctum prelate on 2 stopped abrupt decay, grindy but aggro'ed in
K2: "Fought BUG"
Me: "Oh? Chomp?"
K2: "Nomnomnomnomnom. Very close games though" (we have this running joke: he's always enjoyed winning against BUG. 100% match wins)
Me: "still. afternoon snack"
K2: "There's another DnT. 2 dredge. 1 Maverick. 1 Blade control. But a few were incomplete decks. Blade control had rattlechains and mausoleum wanderer. 1 of the dredge is playing amalgams, interesting."
K2: "OMG! Dredge #1 tied again!"

R3: POX.
G1: crushed opponent with superior board state
G2: opponent controlled right from the start
G3: hand had 1 plains, 1 aether vial, 5 threats. First 6 turns yielded no land, vial ticked up to 3 and stayed, and crew went off. Sanctum prelate to 1 to prevent pithing needle against vial which kept spitting out threats, and won.

R4: dredge #2
Risky ID: if dredge #1 wins, it's tiebreakers; decided not to play because he believed dredge #2 was a bad MU. Tested 2 games, lost 0-2
K2: "We're still waiting to hear who's #4"
Me: "Why the wait?"
K2: "Dredge #1 won the last 2 matches and got 8 points like me"
Me: "They don't have reporter so everything is on paper and therefore tiebreakers need calculators."
K2: (22 minutes later) "gtg I'm 4."

R5: dredge #2 same guy in R4
G1: opponent was landless, didn't take off in time. Mirran and gang went in fast.
G2: he mulls to 4, so was behind by at least 4 turns and the white guys went in fast.

R6: Lands. Don't have decklist but choose any Tier 1 deck out there with a tabernacle.
G1: exiled/bounced avatar 6 times with swords and flicker wisp and karakas etc; wastelands was never drawn; opponent could not win with 6 cards left in deck. Picked up library, look through cards there, and scooped. 1 hour 15 minute game.
G2: almost died to tireless tracker and ate avenger, mom with jitte and its counters; 3 mazes of ith. Avatar, sword, Avatar, exile, meanwhile his creatures chewed 5-8 life at a time, flicker one ith away just to squeeze more than 8 damage at one stage. RiP was in play ultimately and opponent ran out of wincons, and scoops. 45 minute game. Was close as K2 had only 5 cards in library but board state was enough to finish opponent off, and walks home with a trophy and underground sea.

Post game:
K2: "Tabernacle is soooooo OP. Had to pay so much. Also, the Mystic Crusader was useless"
Me: "Ok thanks for experimenting. Sorry last night we had no time to customize together"
K2: "Judges for finals noted 6 times the avatar was plowed"
Me: "Did you just chew away more than 120 points of damage for the finals?"
K2: "It happens. Online I played against lands, and it went for 45 minutes. Didn't lose, but we left the game as it took too long"
Me: "I looked him up. He's a serious player from a much bigger town so he's a much more experienced player"
K2: "He got 1 warning. And misplayed once"
Mum: "The stars aligned. (1) First, you needed to accidentally leave the box in the car. (2) I nearly had to get into an accident. (3) The box had to tumble out. (4) He had to look at the contents after being pushed. (5) Close tie breakers to top 4 (6) Luck on his side R5 opponent didn't have a good hand as dredge"
Spectator LGS good player: "aw mate it was a fully sick match. he's probably told you all about it but he played professionally."
Me: "You know that the thesource is talking about 22 lands for 27 creatures, right? Lots of discussion, reasons, results, track records, experiences...."
K2: "OMG no....disgree...golden rule for DnT modern and legacy is 23 lands..."

[Mainboard]
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

4 Mirran Crusader
2 Flickerwisp
3 Serra Avenger
2 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Palace Jailer

4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Swords to Plowshares

2 Cavern of Souls
3 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Karakas
3 Horizon Canopy
1 Eiganjo castle
7 Plains

[Sideboard]
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Faerie Macabre
2 Rest in Peace
1 Manriki-Gusari
2 Council's Judgment
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Sanctum Prelate
1 Mystic Crusader

Thanks for the read.

[iatee]

That's what I'm trying to figure out. The answer might be that nothing is better. Mystic Crusader seems okay, but when you add the fact that you'll be siding in RiP in many of those matchups, it feels mediocre. It's also not a human for Cavern, for what that's worth. I'll keep testing things in the flex slots as I do my leagues. Mystic Crusader, Aerial Responder, and Paladin En-Vec are the next couple of things I'm going to toy around with. I don't think any of them are going to be great, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

It's also possible that the answer ends up being going back to an Avenger/Crusader heavy list and trying to close out the games quickly instead of dragging the games on with something that they can't kill.


Errata'd to human actually.

[Medea_]

Errata'd to human actually.

Neat! That's a good one to get people with on paper...

[mrjumbo03]

If I understand correctly, Ixalan rules changes (legendary planeswalkers) now allow us to bounce animated Gideons with Karakas, right?

[J ♥ 5]

If I understand correctly, Ixalan rules changes (legendary planeswalkers) now allow us to bounce animated Gideons with Karakas, right?

Certainly reads that way, I'm more interested in what decks will come up and use the fact that you can now have different versions of the same planeswalker in play at the same time (eg: Liliana of the Veil and Liliana the Last Hope)

[Bosque]

Certainly reads that way, I'm more interested in what decks will come up and use the fact that you can now have different versions of the same planeswalker in play at the same time (eg: Liliana of the Veil and Liliana the Last Hope)

Except that Karakas was long ago errata'd to only bounce legendary creatures.

[Medea_]

Except that Karakas was long ago errata'd to only bounce legendary creatures.

It may allow us to bounce an ANIMATED Gideon, which will become a creature and now have the legendary supertype.

[redtwister]

@rostov
Great post. Congrats to your son.

Not sure I would have the hutzpah to play that main list, but it certainly looks aggressive.

@everyone
What is the state of DnT builds in your opinion?

It seems like the options are WW and RW at the larger level, but within WW there is some division over aggression vs control vs splitting the middle (this is not a new dilemma per se, but it seems to be coming up again, so something in the meta is sparking it, right?)

The core has not, AFAIK, changed:
22 lands
4 Wasteland
4 Port
3 Karakas
7 Plains
4 additional (plains, Canopies, Caverns, man lands, etc.)

29 Spells
4 thalia
4 SfM
4 Mom
4 StP
4 Aether Vial
2 Flickerwisp (I am tempted to say 3, but i can't imagine not running 4)
2 Recruiter of the Guard (a new staple?)
2 Phyrexian Revoker (2 seems to the be the minimum)
1 Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 SFI

That's 51 fixed slots and 9 available slots 9/0 or 8/1 on spells/lands, depending.

rostov's son K2 ran a very aggro list with 7 Serra/Crusaders and a Palace Jailer.

phyrexianProvoker on MTGSalvation ran a very control-heavy list (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/11-07-17-dnt/) with 1 Aven Mindcensor, 1 Banisher Priest, +2 Flickerwisp, 1 Mirran Crusader, 1 Sanctum Prelate, 1 Spirit of the Labyrinth, 1 Vryn Wingmare, 1 Path to Exile for his 9 spells and his 4 added lands, 1 Ghost Quarter, 1 Mishra's Factory, +2 Plains.

Medea_'s list (http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?p=1179) falls in between.

Is it metagame broadly, or is this just about what you expect to see locally vs. the big event broad meta? Thoughts?

[WashableWater1]

@rostov
Great post. Congrats to your son.

Not sure I would have the hutzpah to play that main list, but it certainly looks aggressive.

@everyone
What is the state of DnT builds in your opinion?

It seems like the options are WW and RW at the larger level, but within WW there is some division over aggression vs control vs splitting the middle (this is not a new dilemma per se, but it seems to be coming up again, so something in the meta is sparking it, right?)

The core has not, AFAIK, changed:
22 lands
4 Wasteland
4 Port
3 Karakas
7 Plains
4 additional (plains, Canopies, Caverns, man lands, etc.)

29 Spells
4 thalia
4 SfM
4 Mom
4 StP
4 Aether Vial
2 Flickerwisp (I am tempted to say 3, but i can't imagine not running 4)
2 Recruiter of the Guard (a new staple?)
2 Phyrexian Revoker (2 seems to the be the minimum)
1 Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 SFI

That's 51 fixed slots and 9 available slots 9/0 or 8/1 on spells/lands, depending.

rostov's son K2 ran a very aggro list with 7 Serra/Crusaders and a Palace Jailer.

phyrexianProvoker on MTGSalvation ran a very control-heavy list (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/11-07-17-dnt/) with 1 Aven Mindcensor, 1 Banisher Priest, +2 Flickerwisp, 1 Mirran Crusader, 1 Sanctum Prelate, 1 Spirit of the Labyrinth, 1 Vryn Wingmare, 1 Path to Exile for his 9 spells and his 4 added lands, 1 Ghost Quarter, 1 Mishra's Factory, +2 Plains.

Medea_'s list (http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?p=1179) falls in between.

Is it metagame broadly, or is this just about what you expect to see locally vs. the big event broad meta? Thoughts?

My list is basically the stock list thats pretty close to what Medea run's with -3 Plains, +3 Flagstones of Trokair maindeck and -2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar -2 Surgical Extraction +2 Cataclysm +1 Grafdiggers Cage +1 Sanctum Prelate sideboard. I arrived at the maindeck after tinkering around with the slots that I do not consider set in stone, such as the last Flickerwisp, the Crusaders, the Avengers and the last Revoker I arrived at the stock list independently. I think that if you completely optimize the deck for the general metagame right now, thats the 60 that I believe are optimal. The changes people make to make the deck better in specific matchups tend to make the deck lose more against other decks than I am comfortable with in my opinion. I would rather have the deck be close against everything than to polarize my matchups. I value that type of consistency a lot.

That being said, if I'm running at a small local event where I know a good number of the people who are showing up, I'll run something more targeted, I.E. with a second Sanctum Prelate maindeck if I'm expecting a lot of combo, or 6 Graveyard hate spells if I'm expecting a bunch of storm and reanimator, or 3 Crusaders maindeck if I'm expecting BUG and Czech pile. In a less open field you can definitely capitalize on a narrower metagame by correctly predicting what is going to be there and applying pressure in the correct spots.



Off topic, but I swear Medea was throwing shade at me for running masterpiece Vial's. Whats the general consensus on which Vial art to run? I love my brownish border Vial's personally!

[Bosque]

It may allow us to bounce an ANIMATED Gideon, which will become a creature and now have the legendary supertype.

Right, I somehow only read the Liliana part and filled in the blanks, whoops. Of course yes it does the Gideon bouncing if he's a creature.

[Medea_]

Off topic, but I swear Medea was throwing shade at me for running masterpiece Vial's. Whats the general consensus on which Vial art to run? I love my brownish border Vial's personally!

You aren't wrong. The art isn't bad, but the original Vial art has a special place in my heart. I have MM ones on MTGO because I optimized my cart and that's what happened; that's also how I got those terrible Masterpiece Containment Priests. Ick.

@redtwister
I think the WW shell is pretty stable, at least as stable as it has ever been. Like always, there's the debate about the last couple of flex slots, but things are largely static at this point. A few of us have been experimenting in the last couple of slots, but we keep coming back to the same things.

[ChrisCunningham]

Can someone knowledgeable talk briefly about why only the Wr lists consider playing Chalice of the Void? For example, it seems to me that the change from 4 StP, 4 Plains, 2-3 Flex Slots to 4 Chalice, 4 Cavern, 2-3 Blessed Alliance could happen even in the WW list. Has anyone tried it? Or is there some convincing theoretical reason that the WW list couldn't make the shift to Chalice?

[grayryker]

Can someone knowledgeable talk briefly about why only the Wr lists consider playing Chalice of the Void? For example, it seems to me that the change from 4 StP, 4 Plains, 2-3 Flex Slots to 4 Chalice, 4 Cavern, 2-3 Blessed Alliance could happen even in the WW list. Has anyone tried it? Or is there some convincing theoretical reason that the WW list couldn't make the shift to Chalice?

Most lists that play chalice are doing a colorless version, with maybe dishing out Thalia HC with Ancient Tomb or playing Eldrazi stompy.

Chalice is a lot better if you can combine it with cavern of souls and ancient tomb. I think a turn 1-2 card that greatly strengthens all the bad match-ups, most combo decks, any deck with cantrips/removals, etc. are worth playing but most people here are against the idea. Chalice is good not only in the early game but also late game at x=2 and x=3, while you are able to cast your spells through aether vial or cavern of souls (though you need a human dedicated build). The decks you'll miss having StP in are the non-elves creature based match-ups but a resolved chalice crushes many of these decks.

[Medea_]

Can someone knowledgeable talk briefly about why only the Wr lists consider playing Chalice of the Void? For example, it seems to me that the change from 4 StP, 4 Plains, 2-3 Flex Slots to 4 Chalice, 4 Cavern, 2-3 Blessed Alliance could happen even in the WW list. Has anyone tried it? Or is there some convincing theoretical reason that the WW list couldn't make the shift to Chalice?

So the Blessed Alliance monstrosity was my brew. I think I've got at least one version of that up on the decklists tab of my site; if it isn't, you can find a version in SCG's database from some team event or another in Roanoke.

It was an offshoot of a deck that Bahra was playing at the time, which had Dismember or no removal in the BA slot instead. I was worried about the combination of Ancient Tomb and Dismember being too hard on the life total, which is why I dropped it. It had the upside of being better against TNN and Marit Lage, but worse against DRS and Young Pyromancer. Maxing out on Cavern to push cards through Chalice made the splash close to free. It's not that it couldn't be a monowhite deck, it's just that there was little cost to not splashing given the direction things were going. At the time, Elves was the expected top dog, so the splash cards and Chalice combined actually made for a positive Elves matchup, a real rarity for a D&T deck.

This was separate from an Ancient Tomb D&T deck Enevoldson was working on at the time. He had some stuff like Displacer and THC in the main. His Chalices were in the board He's Scaabs on MTGO, so you can probably find the list pretty easily.

[Marungo]

A question for everyone. I have 5 cards to board in versus True-Name Grixis Delver which is getting more popular playing 2 True-Name and 2 Gurmag. They are 2 Judgment, 2 Path, and 1 more Sanctum Prelate in addition to the one main. Using Medea's main deck as a guide, what 5 cards do you board out? I worry I may not be boarding correctly and want others thoughts on the matter. I'll hold off on what I board out because I wanna hear others opinions without any influence of how I already board.

[WashableWater1]

A question for everyone. I have 5 cards to board in versus True-Name Grixis Delver which is getting more popular playing 2 True-Name and 2 Gurmag. They are 2 Judgment, 2 Path, and 1 more Sanctum Prelate in addition to the one main. Using Medea's main deck as a guide, what 5 cards do you board out? I worry I may not be boarding correctly and want others thoughts on the matter. I'll hold off on what I board out because I wanna hear others opinions without any influence of how I already board.

My plan is 3 Revoker 1 Mirran Crusader. If I want to bring in the second Prelate, I'd drop the second Crusader. I don't usually bring it in.

[pedro]

I'm testing this list:

1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Mother of Runes
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Flickerwisp
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Sanctum Prelate
2 Serra Avenger
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth

(22 lands)
1 Cavern of Souls
3 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
10 Plains (I will not play less than 10 plains with 22 lands total)

Sideboard:
1 Pithing Needle
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Faerie Macabre (maybe I look "alternative" right now, but I prefer these over surgicals)
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Palace Jailer
2 Rest in Peace
2 Path to Exile
2 Council's Judgment

Maybe I will side like WashableWater1
On the play I used to side out sofi because it's often the second or third choise with mystic. Usually the main problem is to keep life points up, so you keep batterskull or/and jitte.

[geneyquakes]

A question for everyone. I have 5 cards to board in versus True-Name Grixis Delver which is getting more popular playing 2 True-Name and 2 Gurmag. They are 2 Judgment, 2 Path, and 1 more Sanctum Prelate in addition to the one main. Using Medea's main deck as a guide, what 5 cards do you board out? I worry I may not be boarding correctly and want others thoughts on the matter. I'll hold off on what I board out because I wanna hear others opinions without any influence of how I already board.

Is this with or without DRS? If so, then you can cut all three Revokers. If they do have Deathrite, leaving one in in fine.

I am actually not a huge fan of Prelate here, unless this is version that is completely dependent on one-mana spells. They often have ways to kill things at different mana costs, it often doesn't come down until they have already set up, and the Grey Ogre stats make it fairly useless in combat. The other big issue is that this is presumably there to set on one, but you are boarding in extra Path to Exile. Tread carefully here.

If they are heavy on red removal, you can trim a Mirran Crusader, but you want access to at least one one. Its great with equipment and brickwalls Angler, but just dying to Forked Bolt all the time is bad.

Another thing to keep in mind is what you expect them to do post-board. You often have to deal with things like Dread of Night or Sulfur Elemental. Mother of Runes, Thalia, and Flickerwisp are all quite good in the matchup, but it can also be fine to hedge against the -1 effects by trimming one of a few of your 1 toughness creatures. This is another strong point of Mirran Crusader, because its one of the few respectable creatures even after the minus.

Also keep in mind that it can actually be fine to trim a Plow or two when bringing in Path, as Path is just a strict upgrade here but you might not actually need a full 8 removal spells depending on the situation. Against something like Eldrazi or Infect when all you want to do is kill creatures you just want as many one-mana spells as possible, but against more interactive decks it can be better to have more utility (and you can get stuck with a hand of 2 or 3 Plows and Paths against a True Name).

Not sure about the exact configuration of you opponents deck or what else is in your deck or sideboard, but if you put a gun to my head and made me give you a TL:DR based on your short summary, then:

-3 Revoker, -1 Prelate
+2 Path, +2 Judgment

[heyoka]

question in the open ? is batterskull still THE maindeck card ? with some people moving to 22 lands.. and eldrazi less prevalent

and if not should sword of light and day ( or war and peace ) take its maindeck spot ...?

in game one SOLAS has the advantage of not being counterproductive .. with a brought in rest in peace... and having a batterskul in your opening hand without a SFM is something nobody likes to see..

greets

[grayryker]

question in the open ? is batterskull still THE maindeck card ? with some people moving to 22 lands.. and eldrazi less prevalent

and if not should sword of light and day ( or war and peace ) take its maindeck spot ...?

in game one SOLAS has the advantage of not being counterproductive .. with a brought in rest in peace... and having a batterskul in your opening hand without a SFM is something nobody likes to see..

greets

Many games SoLaS does nothing at all, so it's often as bad as an uncastable Batterskull. 22 vs 23 lands is not be a substantial factor in determining whether Batterskull should be in the main deck. It's one of the few cards like Flickerwisps that can pull you out of a losing board state because the lifelink is substantial.

[WashableWater1]

question in the open ? is batterskull still THE maindeck card ? with some people moving to 22 lands.. and eldrazi less prevalent

and if not should sword of light and day ( or war and peace ) take its maindeck spot ...?

in game one SOLAS has the advantage of not being counterproductive .. with a brought in rest in peace... and having a batterskul in your opening hand without a SFM is something nobody likes to see..

greets

Batterskull wasn't added to the deck to combat Eldrazi. It adds flexibility to Stoneforge Mystic, allowing it to be significantly more threatening and representing a more mana efficienct recurring threat. When you cut Batterskull, Stoneforge no longer can be a 4/4 vigilance lifelink.

SoLaS is also a very weak replacement. It serves a similar function to SoFi, but is significantly more situational. Each can get you +1 card, but SoLaS requires there to be a useful creature in the yard and then to not have an active DRS. It's also only +2 damage compared to +4 for all the other equipment. It's in general a poor card that is good only in specific matchups.

[Tylert]

22 lands is the consensus now?
Way back in time, when thomas won his first GP with D&T, the stock list had 23 lands with Batterskull and the need for mana to operate ports.
I'm still using 23 lands and still having mana problems from time to time. I also use 2 Canopies to have some card draw if i draw too many lands...

[WashableWater1]

22 lands is the consensus now?
Way back in time, when thomas won his first GP with D&T, the stock list had 23 lands with Batterskull and the need for mana to operate ports.
I'm still using 23 lands and still having mana problems from time to time. I also use 2 Canopies to have some card draw if i draw too many lands...

The difference between 22 and 23 lands is not going to be easy to make out by playing games. You'll get stuck with 23 lands and flood with 22. I believe that the optimal number with a stock list is slightly more than 23. 22 will still be fine, just slightly suboptimal.

[Medea_]

23 is the safer play over a large number of games, imo.

[ChrisCunningham]

Using this baseline strategy implemented at https://repl.it/IXTG/40:
* For 7-card hands, mulligan all 3- and 4-vial hands, and otherwise keep hands with 2-5 lands/vials and at least 1 land.
* For 6-card hands, mulligan all 3- and 4-vial hands, and otherwise keep hands with 2-4 lands/vials and at least 1 land.
* For 5-card hands, mulligan all 3- and 4-vial hands, and otherwise keep hands with 1-4 lands/vials and at least 1 land.

You get:

23 lands, 15 W:
- Distribution of keepable hand sizes
- 4 card keeps: 0.0025
- 5 card keeps: 0.0240
- 6 card keeps: 0.0964
- 7 card keeps: 0.8771
- Playable Flickerwisp
- Turn 3 - 0.6835
- Turn 4 - 0.8937

22 lands, 14 W:
- Distribution of keepable hand sizes
- 4 card keeps: 0.0032
- 5 card keeps: 0.0273
- 6 card keeps: 0.1035
- 7 card keeps: 0.8660
- Playable Flickerwisp
- Turn 3 - 0.6424
- Turn 4 - 0.8747

So if you drop from 23 lands to 22 lands you will get "punished" in the following ways:
* You will be forced to mulligan your 7s when you otherwise would not have in 1% of games
* You will be unable to cast 1WW spells on turn 3 when you otherwise would not have in 4% of games
* You will be unable to deploy 1WW creatures by turn 4 when you otherwise would have in 2% of games

I play 24 lands FWIW like Bahra did. It is a tradeoff, but we have so many mana sinks (equipment especially Batterskull, port, wasteland) that I don't really have any desire to shave more and more lands. There is a real cost to doing so. :/

[Tovarisch]

Hey, what is everyone's thoughts on playing Vials into/around Daze? I had a situation where I was on the draw against U/R Delver, he led on Swiftspear and I played my Vial and got it Dazed. I ended up losing the game, and was not sure if I should have waited to play the Vial. My thinking was that Vials are great and I should try to keep one around, but U/R Delver's clock is fast enough that if I fall behind, a late Vial would not help me catch up.

[grayryker]

Hey, what is everyone's thoughts on playing Vials into/around Daze? I had a situation where I was on the draw against U/R Delver, he led on Swiftspear and I played my Vial and got it Dazed. I ended up losing the game, and was not sure if I should have waited to play the Vial. My thinking was that Vials are great and I should try to keep one around, but U/R Delver's clock is fast enough that if I fall behind, a late Vial would not help me catch up.

There's no way getting around it. For all you know, you could be playing around a hand that doesn't have any counterspells or you'll just face a Force of Will regardless of whether you play it turn 1 or turn 2. You play the vial and hope it sticks.

I think playing 24 lands is reasonable but should really be paired with things like Horizon Canopy, considering this deck can flood so easily. Death and Taxes has raised its mana curve significantly since the addition of Conspiracy cards.

[iatee]

Thanks for those numbers Chris, I think they confirm what most of us who have played thousands of games have internalized. That said - it's not like playing more land is 100% upside either - there will be games where having more land makes you flood out, it's just much harder to put a number on those. But still - legacy is fast and missing land drops early is a common way to lose against basically everyone. I think playing lots of utility lands and not going overboard on basic Plains is a good way to hedge.

On playing vs Daze - I generally prefer to make them have it, especially g2/3 when they may have sided them out. Vs. UR Delver in particular, waiting a turn to play Vial means that you won't be able to Vial in a two drop until...3 turns from now? The game might not even last that long. In other cases you may be able to afford to play around Daze (e.g. they're doing nothing and have a handful of cards) or you can cast your less important spell first. But in general giving tempo decks a free Thalia effect all game is not a solid strategy.

[Tylert]

I agree. you cannot afford to play around daze. playing around it will be good 50 percent of the time only.
Usually the strength of daze is that people play around it even if you don't have it. Just don't give the blue player that advantage.
You should perhaps mulligan more aggressively hands with 1 land and vial with 3 drops.

[WashableWater1]

The only games you can afford to play around Daze on your vial are ones where you aren't facing enough pressure for the extra turn to matter. A Plow-heavy mana light hand is a good example of one that can, or a game against Daze Miracles.

Has anyone that's been looking for a 1WW card that's good against Delver and Czech Pile considered Kitchen Finks? It seems both removal resistant, tutorable, decent at swinging a race, and good with Flickerwisp. I might throw a couple in a build to see how they perform. The Deathrite problem seems real, and the dissynergy with RIP is also awkward, but I think it seems worth a shot.

[Tylert]

The only games you can afford to play around Daze on your vial are ones where you aren't facing enough pressure for the extra turn to matter. A Plow-heavy mana light hand is a good example of one that can, or a game against Daze Miracles.

Has anyone that's been looking for a 1WW card that's good against Delver and Czech Pile considered Kitchen Finks? It seems both removal resistant, tutorable, decent at swinging a race, and good with Flickerwisp. I might throw a couple in a build to see how they perform. The Deathrite problem seems real, and the dissynergy with RIP is also awkward, but I think it seems worth a shot.

Are we really that unfavored against delver and 4C czech pile?

[grayryker]

Are we really that unfavored against delver and 4C czech pile?

Verdict is kind of out on Grixis Delver but based purely on statistics, the 'average' player is not favored to win. Czech Pile is definitely unfavorable because they have all the removal spells in the world and a bunch of 2-for-1s. I remember reading somewhere on reddit that Bahra considers it difficult for DnT to be dominant in this meta due to all the cabal therapies, fatal pushes, and kolaghan's command and these are not even sideboard hate. In addition to this, I would say the main problem is the mana.

I definitely consider Death and Taxes to be the aggressor in these two match-ups. You want them to durdle around with cantrips while you beat them down and hope to accumulate enough card advantage with Stoneforge. If you have a slow start with no Aether Vial or stuck on lands, it's pretty much game over because they can remove your creatures 1-for-1 while beating down with their own. It's hard to mana denial Grixis when they can operate entirely on 1-mana cantrips and Deathrite Shamans and without Aether Vial, you should almost never attempt a turn 2 Wasteland/ Port and take time to develop your own board. My experience is it's often not worth it to StP a Deathrite and save it for Delver/ Pyromancer/ Gurmag.

[RobNC]

Playing against a competent player with Czech Pile feels hopeless. Grixis is also pretty hard.


As for the Vial vs. Daze debate, I always run out a Vial turn 1 whether they have countermagic or not, as it's too good if it sticks. If it gets Forced then that's one less counterspell to get your Thalia or SFM next turn, if it gets Dazed then at least you set them back a mana for next turn (you are a taxing deck, after all). That being said, I'd be hesitant to keep a hand that depended on Vial if I was playing against a Daze deck, such as Port, Wasteland, Vial, and four creatures, because losing that Vial means your hand is crap.

[WashableWater1]

Verdict is kind of out on Grixis Delver but based purely on statistics, the 'average' player is not favored to win. Czech Pile is definitely unfavorable because they have all the removal spells in the world and a bunch of 2-for-1s. I remember reading somewhere on reddit that Bahra considers it difficult for DnT to be dominant in this meta due to all the cabal therapies, fatal pushes, and kolaghan's command and these are not even sideboard hate. In addition to this, I would say the main problem is the mana.

I definitely consider Death and Taxes to be the aggressor in these two match-ups. You want them to durdle around with cantrips while you beat them down and hope to accumulate enough card advantage with Stoneforge. If you have a slow start with no Aether Vial or stuck on lands, it's pretty much game over because they can remove your creatures 1-for-1 while beating down with their own. It's hard to mana denial Grixis when they can operate entirely on 1-mana cantrips and Deathrite Shamans and without Aether Vial, you should almost never attempt a turn 2 Wasteland/ Port and take time to develop your own board. My experience is it's often not worth it to StP a Deathrite and save it for Delver/ Pyromancer/ Gurmag.

Grixis Delver feels very dependent on familiarity with the matchup. While there are definitely games where mana denial is bad, or where you shouldnt Plow a Deathrite, being able to read the situation and know when to go for the throat is pretty key. I wouldnt say that you play the aggressor, but you need to be able to win the game before they just burn you out. Overall it feels quite close to even to me.

Czech Pile can feel very bad, but in my experience is actually close to even or favorable. As with Delver, mana denial is hit or miss, so knowing when to use it is difficult. K Command is always good, but it is possible to play as to prevent it from being great. Solid sideboarding makes the matchup feel like one that I'm happy to face off against.

Both of these decks to me feel quite close to even, but even still it seems worth it to explore options that can promote the matchup from even to favorable. A lot of people have been posting about creatures that line up well against the specific removal that these decks pack, but many of those cards are pretty lackluster in other matchups. My interest in exploring Kitchen Finks is that it seems like it solves some of the problems that I have with these matchups while not being overspecialized.

[grayryker]

Grixis Delver feels very dependent on familiarity with the matchup. While there are definitely games where mana denial is bad, or where you shouldnt Plow a Deathrite, being able to read the situation and know when to go for the throat is pretty key. I wouldnt say that you play the aggressor, but you need to be able to win the game before they just burn you out. Overall it feels quite close to even to me.

Czech Pile can feel very bad, but in my experience is actually close to even or favorable. As with Delver, mana denial is hit or miss, so knowing when to use it is difficult. K Command is always good, but it is possible to play as to prevent it from being great. Solid sideboarding makes the matchup feel like one that I'm happy to face off against.

Both of these decks to me feel quite close to even, but even still it seems worth it to explore options that can promote the matchup from even to favorable. A lot of people have been posting about creatures that line up well against the specific removal that these decks pack, but many of those cards are pretty lackluster in other matchups. My interest in exploring Kitchen Finks is that it seems like it solves some of the problems that I have with these matchups while not being overspecialized.

I mean you have to read the situation - these are just general guidelines for what you should do. By all means StP the Deathrite Shaman if you see your opponent miss a 2nd land drop and shuffle their scry, with wasteland backup. In general, the games DnT wins against Grixis is when they win the tempo race with Thalia and Aether Vial.

Not sure how Czech Pile could be favorable. You're speaking in very general terms right now (e.g how can you make K-Command great to good? It's an inherent 2-for-1 card, you have no hand information, and you cannot win this match-up by playing too conservatively). What's your definition of a solid sideboarding?

We can discuss Kitchen Finks. Its lifegain is irrelevant against Czech Pile but has uses against Grixis Delver. It doesn't match up well against the key threats offensively or defensively: gurmag angler, true-name, Leovold (can be okay but only before persist trigger), young pyromancer, baleful strix. And I can't think of a match-up aside from the classic creature based aggro (burn, merfolk, goblins) where this card is good. A lot of the other cards discussed here like Restoration Angel or even Fiendslayer Paladin have more versatility here. For example, Angel gets around a lot of removals and attacks over Leovold/ TNN and surprise block Delver. Paladin-en Vec is also a pretty good card as it blocks and gets protected from most of those threats; it's less versatile but more powerful than Fiendslayer against Grixis and Czech Pile.

[WashableWater1]

I mean you have to read the situation - these are just general guidelines for what you should do. By all means StP the Deathrite Shaman if you see your opponent miss a 2nd land drop and shuffle their scry, with wasteland backup. In general, the games DnT wins against Grixis is when they win the tempo race with Thalia and Aether Vial.

Not sure how Czech Pile could be favorable. You're speaking in very general terms right now (e.g how can you make K-Command great to good? It's an inherent 2-for-1 card, you have no hand information, and you cannot win this match-up by playing too conservatively). What's your definition of a solid sideboarding?

We can discuss Kitchen Finks. Its lifegain is irrelevant against Czech Pile but has uses against Grixis Delver. It doesn't match up well against the key threats offensively or defensively: gurmag angler, true-name, Leovold (can be okay but only before persist trigger), young pyromancer, baleful strix. And I can't think of a match-up aside from the classic creature based aggro (burn, merfolk, goblins) where this card is good. A lot of the other cards discussed here like Restoration Angel or even Fiendslayer Paladin have more versatility here. For example, Angel gets around a lot of removals and attacks over Leovold/ TNN and surprise block Delver. Paladin-en Vec is also a pretty good card as it blocks and gets protected from most of those threats; it's less versatile but more powerful than Fiendslayer against Grixis and Czech Pile.

You make K command less good by always thinking about which modes they would use on the board. Playing patiently so that they have to make you discard, or have to just tap a mom, or wait until you have vial on 3. Why isn't the matchup bad? Although they play a lot of removal and maindeck artifact destruction, they're still playing a pretty slow 4 color blue deck with a bunch of 3 drops and cantrips. That offers you a lot of angles to apply pressure, such as keeping them off colors or developing a board while they pay 2 mana to cantrip. They only have a couple huge threats, Jace and Gurmag. They're very weak to Rest In Peace. They're extremely weak to Cataclysm. It's even because it comes down largely to how well then half of the deck you drew counters the half of deck they drew.

Why I like Finks against Czech Pile is because many games that I've played where you have a SoFi or SoLaS in play and who wins comes down to drawing one more creature than they draw removal spells. Kitchen Finks acts as 2 creatures in this game. It is weak to Deathrite and to Snapcaster, but I'm just sitting throwing ideas out there. I like a lot of what Kitchen Finks does bring to the table. I think that looking for the best White Knight is barking up the wrong tree. Attacking for 2 a turn vs 3 a turn is huge. In matchups that aren't Czech or maybe Delver for the lifelink Knight, you'll be playing a 3 mana 2/2. It will be the worst card in your deck by far. Mirran Crusader is great because at worst he attacks for 4. Playing a significantly weaker creature to beat 1 or possibly 2 bolts does not seem good enough to me. I've also been running into way more edicts than I used to, which sort of takes away that one reason you ran a Knight (it's unkillable). I would sort of like a better threat against Delver, but I've yet to figure out what it is.

What I mean by solid sideboarding is having a sideboard beat with Czech Pile in mind and not falling into card evaluation traps. I initially was sideboarding like I was playing a creature light midrange deck, leaving in 2 plows etc. it's pretty tough to suss out how good certain cards are, such as I'm still not sure if Revoker is good and Serra Avenger is bad, or if Councils Judgement isn't actually terrible. The traps that I've seen people fall into are playing Palace Jailer against Czech, or even bringing it in. I've put Gideon's in my sideboard because I thought they were going to be slam dunks that solved the creature problem. Im really happy with my current sideboard plan, but I'm not sure if it's actually optimal.

[grayryker]

You make K command less good by always thinking about which modes they would use on the board. Playing patiently so that they have to make you discard, or have to just tap a mom, or wait until you have vial on 3. Why isn't the matchup bad? Although they play a lot of removal and maindeck artifact destruction, they're still playing a pretty slow 4 color blue deck with a bunch of 3 drops and cantrips. That offers you a lot of angles to apply pressure, such as keeping them off colors or developing a board while they pay 2 mana to cantrip. They only have a couple huge threats, Jace and Gurmag. They're very weak to Rest In Peace. They're extremely weak to Cataclysm. It's even because it comes down largely to how well then half of the deck you drew counters the half of deck they drew.

Why I like Finks against Czech Pile is because many games that I've played where you have a SoFi or SoLaS in play and who wins comes down to drawing one more creature than they draw removal spells. Kitchen Finks acts as 2 creatures in this game. It is weak to Deathrite and to Snapcaster, but I'm just sitting throwing ideas out there. I like a lot of what Kitchen Finks does bring to the table. I think that looking for the best White Knight is barking up the wrong tree. Attacking for 2 a turn vs 3 a turn is huge. In matchups that aren't Czech or maybe Delver for the lifelink Knight, you'll be playing a 3 mana 2/2. It will be the worst card in your deck by far. Mirran Crusader is great because at worst he attacks for 4. Playing a significantly weaker creature to beat 1 or possibly 2 bolts does not seem good enough to me. I've also been running into way more edicts than I used to, which sort of takes away that one reason you ran a Knight (it's unkillable). I would sort of like a better threat against Delver, but I've yet to figure out what it is.

What I mean by solid sideboarding is having a sideboard beat with Czech Pile in mind and not falling into card evaluation traps. I initially was sideboarding like I was playing a creature light midrange deck, leaving in 2 plows etc. it's pretty tough to suss out how good certain cards are, such as I'm still not sure if Revoker is good and Serra Avenger is bad, or if Councils Judgement isn't actually terrible. The traps that I've seen people fall into are playing Palace Jailer against Czech, or even bringing it in. I've put Gideon's in my sideboard because I thought they were going to be slam dunks that solved the creature problem. Im really happy with my current sideboard plan, but I'm not sure if it's actually optimal.

Playing patiently is how you lose this match-up. Excessively playing around one card could easily cost you the game that you could have won in 2-3 turns earlier. There is no way to play around these things without hand information. I think you are severely underestimating this match-up. Pretty much any blue deck will out-draw you. Siding in 2 Rest in Peace is great except this deck lacks any cantrips to find them reliably AND it's not always going to be impactful if you draw the card late (e.g shaman already activated a million times, Angler already on board, etc.). I know some people disagree but Cataclysm is not a reliable card at all.

You're saying Finks is better than Crusader or Paladin En-Vec in this match-up? Attacking for 3 sounds great if you're in magic christmas land and your opponent has no creatures on board. Your argument for Finks is it's like 2 creatures in one, except the whole point of Crusader and Paladin is to stay alive so these are way better value cards. And with equipment in the equation, it's just not even close that their protection ability will be way more relevant on offense and chaining equipment combat damage. Without equipment, you actually have a way to get around all the Baleful Strix / Shamans and block Gurmag Angler. We shouldn't be playing Finks just to get around Liliana, when it's not even in couple Czech Pile lists.

Of course you don't leave in the plow. I haven't seen people do this yet, with all the redundant threats it seems somewhat common sense. It's the same reason you don't side in Palace Jailer but if you've seen such people, shame on them I guess.

On a side note, anyone who *really* wants to improve the Delver and 4C Control match-up could just replace Rishadan Ports with Ghost Quarter. Ghost quarter is equivalent to Wasteland in these match-ups and is just way better than Port which requires you to be ahead in mana. Considering decks like Czech Pile run 8 dual lands, filling your deck with 8 wastelands is basically crippling as they run no basics.

[WashableWater1]

Playing patiently is how you lose this match-up. Excessively playing around one card could easily cost you the game that you could have won in 2-3 turns earlier. There is no way to play around these things without hand information. I think you are severely underestimating this match-up. Pretty much any blue deck will out-draw you. Siding in 2 Rest in Peace is great except this deck lacks any cantrips to find them reliably AND it's not always going to be impactful if you draw the card late (e.g shaman already activated a million times, Angler already on board, etc.). I know some people disagree but Cataclysm is not a reliable card at all.

You're saying Finks is better than Crusader or Paladin En-Vec in this match-up? Attacking for 3 sounds great if you're in magic christmas land and your opponent has no creatures on board. Your argument for Finks is it's like 2 creatures in one, except the whole point of Crusader and Paladin is to stay alive so these are way better value cards. And with equipment in the equation, it's just not even close that their protection ability will be way more relevant on offense and chaining equipment combat damage. Without equipment, you actually have a way to get around all the Baleful Strix / Shamans and block Gurmag Angler. We shouldn't be playing Finks just to get around Liliana, when it's not even in couple Czech Pile lists.

Of course you don't leave in the plow. I haven't seen people do this yet, with all the redundant threats it seems somewhat common sense. It's the same reason you don't side in Palace Jailer but if you've seen such people, shame on them I guess.

On a side note, anyone who *really* wants to improve the Delver and 4C Control match-up could just replace Rishadan Ports with Ghost Quarter. Ghost quarter is equivalent to Wasteland in these match-ups and is just way better than Port which requires you to be ahead in mana. Considering decks like Czech Pile run 8 dual lands, filling your deck with 8 wastelands is basically crippling as they run no basics.

I do pretty well playing conservatively against Czech when the hand permits it. The only card I feel punishes you for going slow is Jace, taking an extra turn to set up a better position is totally worth it. Im talking from experience playing against it over and over in test games, leagues and paper events. I'm lifetime slightly favored but the matchup feels close to even

Czech now runs more Diabolic Edicts than Lightning Bolts, not to mention Marsh Casualties and Deluge. The narrative of those cards being immune to removal is a false one. Finks trades for two removal spells at best, and half of it trades for half a Snapcaster or Strix at worst. I'm not sure why Knights carry equipment better. They don't beat the "who draws more" problem. I think Crusader is probably the best card for that slot, I'm more interested in how a Finks can swing races against Delver. I couldn't think of much else that fit both matchups.

[grayryker]

I do pretty well playing conservatively against Czech when the hand permits it. The only card I feel punishes you for going slow is Jace, taking an extra turn to set up a better position is totally worth it. Im talking from experience playing against it over and over in test games, leagues and paper events. I'm lifetime slightly favored but the matchup feels close to even

Czech now runs more Diabolic Edicts than Lightning Bolts, not to mention Marsh Casualties and Deluge. The narrative of those cards being immune to removal is a false one. Finks trades for two removal spells at best, and half of it trades for half a Snapcaster or Strix at worst. I'm not sure why Knights carry equipment better. They don't beat the "who draws more" problem. I think Crusader is probably the best card for that slot, I'm more interested in how a Finks can swing races against Delver. I couldn't think of much else that fit both matchups.

Dude very few Czech Pile decks ever run lightning bolts because they favor a playset of fatal push. The deck is primarily Black and Blue, with small red and green splash, so a smart 4C control deck builder runs push over bolt. Diabolic edict isn't even in the same category as bolt but yes, many variants run ONE copy.

Nothing avoids an edict under the right conditions. But you're expecting a recurred 2/1 threat to be valuable? The value of Paladin/ Crusader is they can both attack through creatures and block them; they also don't die to virtually any spot removal from Czech Pile except the rare versions that run lightning bolt. With an equipment, they become exponentially more valuable. You either win with tempo or with card advantage in this match-up and Paladin/Crusader helps you enable this far better than Finks can.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

And what about this guy? Menace and flying that's tutorable. Obviously only in the red splash, but I like it there. Thoughts?https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170910/dd7618429c5aabb154786e7509710729.jpg

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[Medea_]

It's non-human, which makes it rough even in a red splash (assuming a Cavern-based manabase).

[colo]

Too weak to matter. Imo, these days, you need some form of built-in protection from removal to be considered for inclusion in D&T's main.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

@colo: That's not true at all. People play Serra Avenger; and what, is Mom just no longer good enough to fill the role of built-in protection?

I'm talking about using it in the same capacity as Kor Skyfisher (sans bounce) but being able to use the same Recruiter that grabs Flickerwisp.

@medea: Yes, I'm aware it's never coming in off a Cavern, but playing 1-2 Magus, 4 vial, 5-6 fetches and 1-2 Plateau (and I add a Mox Diamond as card 61 when I add a splash) seems like it's pretty reasonable to test.

Hopefully Iatee chimes in...

[grayryker]

@colo: That's not true at all. People play Serra Avenger; and what, is Mom just no longer good enough to fill the role of built-in protection?

I'm talking about using it in the same capacity as Kor Skyfisher (sans bounce) but being able to use the same Recruiter that grabs Flickerwisp.

@medea: Yes, I'm aware it's never coming in off a Cavern, but playing 1-2 Magus, 4 vial, 5-6 fetches and 1-2 Plateau (and I add a Mox Diamond as card 61 when I add a splash) seems like it's pretty reasonable to test.

Hopefully Iatee chimes in...

The card is bad. And not because it dies to removal like colo said, which kind of doesn't matter because every flyer in this deck dies to most removals.

The reason Serra Avenger is playable is because vigilance is 10x more valuable than menace when coupled with flying. Being able to have evasion + play defense against small creatures is huge. Playing a deck with small weenies means you'll run into a lot of situations where you have to play defense whereas this dinosaur is a purely offensive card (and a weak one at that). The extra toughness and power also matters on both ends of offense and defense. Even if it was just a single white cost, it would be too weak to play. It's a slightly better Storm Crow (with a harder casting cost)... let that sink in a bit.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Thanks for your response. I disagree with a lot of what you say; I guess this is no different. I guess I will just playtest and come to my own conclusions. Carry on, gentlemen.

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[WashableWater1]

I wrote up a quick tournament report on a 25 person EW trial (the hurricane kind of hampered attendance). Even though it was small I'm posting it because I wrote it up. Ignore it if you care that much!
Decklist:
4 Mother of Runes
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Serra Avenger
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Sanctum Prelate
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
2 Cavern of Souls
3 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Karakas
7 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

Sideboard (15)
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Sanctum Prelate
2 Path to Exile
2 Council's Judgment
2 Cataclysm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Rest In Peace

Round 1 - Czech Pile 2-1
Game 1. Lost. They were able to deal with my first couple threats, and by the time I was able to start developing a board I had taken too much damage from Gurmag and Tasigur to be able to come back. They had force for my Plow and a Bolt for my Crusader.
Game 2. Won. They kept a hand with 2ish lands and a couple cantrips. I was able to put down a Thalia, which they didn't immediately have a removal spell for. Stoneforge for SoFi and 2 Wastelands kept them locked down enough for an easy win.
Game 3. Won. I kept a slower hand. I played a turn 3 Prelate on 1 to lock out their removal and cantrips. Their mana was awkward enough that I was able to get the job done with 2 Serra Avengers.

-3 Revoker -4 Plow -1 Batterskull
+2 Rip +2 CJ +2Cataclysm +1 Prelate +1 SoLaS

Round 2 Lincoln Baxter Special, aka BUG Control with a lands package. 2-1
Game 1 - Lost. I kept a Cavern Vial Mom Thalia Plown type hand. After they Pernicious Deeded my board they got Loam online and had cabal pit and liliana to kill all my threats. I scooped to Cephalid Colloseum Leovold lock.
Game 2 - won. I kept one land double Vial, then never drew any lands. I was able to push through damage with Thalia and Crusader a turn or so before they could get anything really threatening going. RiP was in play the whole game and was great.
Game 3 - won. He kept a hand with awkward mana. I was able to develop a large board presence while he tried to get his deck to work, and he died before he could draw out of it. He ended up needing to play Jace as a Fog. Wasteland was an all star. RiP was great at shutting down Deathrite and Snapcaster.

+2 Cataclysm +2 RiP, +2 CJ +1 Prelate (Prelate was probably wrong)
-3 Revoker, -4 Plow,

Round 3 Burn 2-0
Game 1. Win. I keep a vial double mom Stoneforge hand. He kills one mom, kills another, but the EoT Stoneforge for Batterskull wins it.
Game 2. Win. I mulligan to 5. I play mom into Stoneforge. It's good enough. He was a newer player and told me that he wasn't prepared for the matchup.

-3 Revoker -1 SoFi
+2 CJ +1Prelate +1SoLaS

Round 4 Dragon Stompy. 2-1
Game 1. Win. I mulligan to 5 and keep plains plains Karakas 2 Flickerwisps. He makes a turn 1 Chalice. I play Karakas and he plays a blood moon. He ends up stuck on 2 mana while I kill him with 3/1s.
Game 2 lost. I keep a slow hand with a bunch of 3 drops and got overrun by a Chandra. He has Abrade for my first Revoker, Fiery Confluence for the second, and I'm not able to attack it down before it ultimates.
Game 3 win. he mulls to 5 and I play turn 2 Thalia. I beat him down with random idiots while porting and wasting him to death

+2 Cataclysm +2 CJ +2 Path
-4 Mom, -1 Prelate, -1 Mirran Crusader

Draw round 5 into the finals. Could have drawn my last round but I didn't do the math.

Quarterfinals Lands 2-1
Game 1. Lost. I keep a really slow hand that does nothing. I play moms revokers and Stoneforges, but I lose to a fast Marit Lage. I could have kept up a Plow instead of equipping sword, but I was on autopilot and didn't play around Crop rotation for that one turn. My bad.
Game 2. Win. I mulligan to 5, keeping 2 Plains mom Prelate Avenger. I leave a plains on top. I am able to flickerwisp a Marit Lage, which was all his hand did, and win quickly.
Game 3. Win Keep a 6 that has 2 cataclysms that I never need to cast. He opens with a Molten Vortex with no Loam. He never progresses past 3 lands.I have a Path for Marit Lage, Vial in an EoT flickerwisp to remove his Vortex then beat down with a second flickerwisp holding a sword until he dies.

+2 Cataclysm +2RIP +1 Prelate
-2 Stoneforge -1 Jitte -2 Crusader

Semi finals: Grixis Control. 2-0
Game 1. Win. I have a Vial Port draw. He pushes my mom, then bolts my Stoneforge which got a SoFi. I play SoFi on my turn 3, then EoT Vial in Recruiter for Crusader thinking he's on Czech. He waits until I equip ony turn to K Command SoFi, so I am able to protect it with a flickerwisp. He cantrips into air and the game ends quickly.
Game 2. Win. He had T1 Deathrite. He bolts my Thalia, my other Thalia, then snap bolts a Flickerwisp. He plays out a Tasigur and a Leovold. I play a Cataclysm, he ends up keeping DRS and a Badlands while I keep a Vial and a plains, sacrificing a Flagstones. I lay a third land and then I lay out a SoFi. The next turn I play Crusader equip. I kill him with a sword on a Crusader very quickly.

-3 Revoker -4 Plow -1 Batterskull
+2 Rip +2 CJ +2Cataclysm +1 Prelate +1 SoLaS

Finals: Split.

All in all I loved my build and my play. I misplayed hard and lost at least one game because of it. Cataclysm still ruins people's days, I felt mostly confidant with my boarding. I got lucky in getting mostly good matchups or matchups that favor the more familiar player.

[WashableWater1]

Thanks for your response. I disagree with a lot of what you say; I guess this is no different. I guess I will just playtest and come to my own conclusions. Carry on, gentlemen.

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My question regarding that card is this: why is it better than Leonin Skyhunter or Selfless Spirit?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Do you just not agree that swinging through a single flyer to get jitte/sofi activations is worth something? I mean, that's how it's better than Skyhunter. Furthermore, it's an x/2, which means it lives through DoN, which selfless spirit (and most other creatures in DnT) do not. Selfless Spirit isn't a contender for this deck in my humble opinion because he is only good in silly situations where you have seemingly overextended. I have only had incredibly overextended board-states in the mirror or vs. Elvesfor the most part, and it doesn't seem like a game-changer in those MU's, as board wipes aren't really a thing in those matchups.

I understand he doesn't seem like much, and granted he doesn't do anything for the Mono-White builds, but my thought is that in non-Imperial W/r Taxes (I dislike imperial recruiter due to him being unable to tutor Flickerwisp, as well as his imperial price tag), he is worth running in the Kor Skyfisher slot. I understand he doesn't bounce, but I think I'm okay with just the double evasion with basically guaranteed equipment triggers while being fine against Delver.

Obviously I could be wrong, and I am happy to acknowledge that, but he feels like value, and I guess I'll let you know how he pans out for me.

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[grayryker]

Thanks for your response. I disagree with a lot of what you say; I guess this is no different. I guess I will just playtest and come to my own conclusions. Carry on, gentlemen.

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If you disagree, feel free to point it out what you think I'm wrong about.

Your argument seems to revolve around "he can always get equipment triggers" and that's a weak point. Why? Because having menace on a flyer is complete overkill when evasion will get the job done 90%+ of the time. Placing the card in a very theoretical scenario "if he has one Delver + he has no removals + I have Jitte equipped to this creature and really need the trigger, this card is awesome" is, I would argue, proving it's a bad card. In most cases, he is just a worse flyer than Kor Skyfisher, Vryn Wingmare, Flickerwisp, and Serra Avenger. I probably wouldn't expect Menace to be relevant in 1/100 games; what I would expect is the casting cost and 2 power/toughness to matter in far more games and therefore, he actually might even be worse than Leonin Skyhunter which is a terrible card. Like I said, the vigilance on Serra Avenger is actually a deal breaker and not a mere novelty when racing creature decks like TNN decks and the mirror. The 3 toughness means you can't recruit it but it means Serra Avenger is one your best cards against Lands and other punishing fire/ molten vortex decks. Also, you should consider evaluating this card without any equipment on board... then it's also quite obvious it's mediocre.

If he was easier to cast than any of these creatures, he'd still be bad but he's arguably harder to cast this an any of them even in a red build. That in itself should be a deal breaker.

On a side note, selfless spirit is not really suitable for DnT considering most boardwipes are counters based. But it's still better than the dinosaur. It's not only a board protection but also the indestructibility is relevant in combat, as you can block with all your creatures and sac before combat damage. Not saying you should play the card though...

[LyleCInDaHouse]

332
333
What do you guys think of this as tech against Czech Pile? Once you get the land flipped, you can fart out a dude every turn to deal with their spot removal. Plus they have lifelink which could be reliant against burn and U/R Prowess/delver. I think its worth testing.

[iatee]

You can't expect to attack with 3 creatures against a deck filled with removal.

[colo]

If you really think you need the token-producing effect, Kjeldoran Outpost will probably do you more good than this. (Also combos with Magus of the Moon now. Yay!)

[LyleCInDaHouse]

If you really think you need the token-producing effect, Kjeldoran Outpost will probably do you more good than this. (Also combos with Magus of the Moon now. Yay!)

"combos" with magus of the moon. Sure, now I don't have to sacrifice my plains so long as I turn of the card im playing with my own moon effect. Such synergy.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

@greyryker: I'm uninterested in squabbling, I simply said I disagree, thanked you for your opinion, and said I would test it. I'll leave it at that.

Perhaps I'll bring it up again when testing shows a consensus one way or another.

There's a good chance that this fulfills a need for me that others don't feel they have.

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[Medea_]

332
333
What do you guys think of this as tech against Czech Pile? Once you get the land flipped, you can fart out a dude every turn to deal with their spot removal. Plus they have lifelink which could be reliant against burn and U/R Prowess/delver. I think its worth testing.

There are more reliable cards that do the same thing for the czech pile matchup. Gideon, AoZ is already in the deck filling that role, and you could go to things like Heliod, God of the Sun if you wanted something they couldn't take off the table.

[kombatkiwi]

Does the new 1/1 Vampire enter the Mystic Crusader / Fiendslayer Paladin discussion?

Adanto Vanguard 1W
Vampire Soldier
As long as ~ is attacking, it gets +2/+0
Pay 4 life: ~ Becomes indestructible until end of turn
1/1

Similarly to the other cards:
- It's immune to Bolt/Push/Kolaghan's Command/Decay
- You can recruiter for it
- It can attack into everything (Strix, Leo, DRS) that isn't a TNN and win (I guess Mystic Crusader can fly over that if you have threshold).

Pros
- Only 2 mana
- Maybe in other matchups indestructibility is more useful than color protection (like the mirror, but maybe Mirran Crusader is better there)
- Immune to Kozilek's Return, and I guess Walking Ballista (although that card will probably make you run out of life very quickly)

Cons
- Dies to Dismember/Marsh Casualties/Dread of Night
- Not a human (although Cavern on Soldier might be okay in some spots)

[grayryker]

Does the new 1/1 Vampire enter the Mystic Crusader / Fiendslayer Paladin discussion?

Adanto Vanguard 1W
Vampire Soldier
As long as ~ is attacking, it gets +2/+0
Pay 4 life: ~ Becomes indestructible until end of turn
1/1

Similarly to the other cards:
- It's immune to Bolt/Push/Kolaghan's Command/Decay
- You can recruiter for it
- It can attack into everything (Strix, Leo, DRS) that isn't a TNN and win (I guess Mystic Crusader can fly over that if you have threshold).

Pros
- Only 2 mana
- Maybe in other matchups indestructibility is more useful than color protection (like the mirror, but maybe Mirran Crusader is better there)
- Immune to Kozilek's Return, and I guess Walking Ballista (although that card will probably make you run out of life very quickly)

Cons
- Dies to Dismember/Marsh Casualties/Dread of Night
- Not a human (although Cavern on Soldier might be okay in some spots)

4 life seems way too much for this card to be playable. Against Czech Pile it might be okay but against any other creature based match-up... not being able to play defense without losing life is a huge deal.

[TheStalk]

Take this with a grain of salt, as it is an untested idea I had while thinking about ways of improving the Czech Pile match-up, but has anyone considered going deep on a Green splash with Ramunap Excavator? The idea here would be taking out Recruiter (which unfortunately can't tutor for Excavator), and 2 other creatures for a full playset of Excavator, replacing Rishadan Port with Ghost Quarter and playing some number of Horizon Canopy as a combined GW source/card advantage engine. Is this a stupid shower thought or does it merit actual testing?

[LyleCInDaHouse]

Take this with a grain of salt, as it is an untested idea I had while thinking about ways of improving the Czech Pile match-up, but has anyone considered going deep on a Green splash with Ramunap Excavator? The idea here would be taking out Recruiter (which unfortunately can't tutor for Excavator), and 2 other creatures for a full playset of Excavator, replacing Rishadan Port with Ghost Quarter and playing some number of Horizon Canopy as a combined GW source/card advantage engine. Is this a stupid shower thought or does it merit actual testing?

actually seems like a valid idea. You could also gain Knight of the Reliquary from the green splash to tutor up your wastelands. And Shaper's Sanctuary makes all their spot removal seem like trash garbage since it draws you cards. You could probably add Teeg and Renegade Railer too depending on how much green you add.

[Bosque]

Take this with a grain of salt, as it is an untested idea I had while thinking about ways of improving the Czech Pile match-up, but has anyone considered going deep on a Green splash with Ramunap Excavator? The idea here would be taking out Recruiter (which unfortunately can't tutor for Excavator), and 2 other creatures for a full playset of Excavator, replacing Rishadan Port with Ghost Quarter and playing some number of Horizon Canopy as a combined GW source/card advantage engine. Is this a stupid shower thought or does it merit actual testing?

I think it's a different deck, but not a bad idea. Have you checked out the Two Green thread in developing?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

You basically just turned this into Maverick.

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[grayryker]

Take this with a grain of salt, as it is an untested idea I had while thinking about ways of improving the Czech Pile match-up, but has anyone considered going deep on a Green splash with Ramunap Excavator? The idea here would be taking out Recruiter (which unfortunately can't tutor for Excavator), and 2 other creatures for a full playset of Excavator, replacing Rishadan Port with Ghost Quarter and playing some number of Horizon Canopy as a combined GW source/card advantage engine. Is this a stupid shower thought or does it merit actual testing?

It's been discussed before - an interesting engine but not the best fit here. Like Bee said, it's basically Maverick because that deck utilizes Excavator much better than this deck does.

I would say any new cards that gets added to this deck has to do either one of two things: improves the combo match-ups or the removal heavy control match-ups like Czech Pile. I feel the power level of the deck has gone down because the answers are becoming more efficient than the threats (fatal push and kolaghan's command comes to mind). Hell Tarmogoyf isn't even being played anymore. Stoneforge Mystic gets destroyed by K-Command and cabal therapy. The reason why I play Chalice is because it serves both as removal protection, valuable disruption, and hoses combo on x=0 or x=1, as well as being a late game x=2. Kolaghan's command is still a beating though.

[colo]

"combos" with magus of the moon. Sure, now I don't have to sacrifice my plains so long as I turn of the card im playing with my own moon effect. Such synergy.

I guess I should have quoted the "Yay!" to properly signal the sarcasm involved.


Otoh, with proper sequencing and Dark Depths instead of Outpost, Marit Lage is only a Flickerwisp on Magus away...

[Medea_]

Take this with a grain of salt, as it is an untested idea I had while thinking about ways of improving the Czech Pile match-up, but has anyone considered going deep on a Green splash with Ramunap Excavator? The idea here would be taking out Recruiter (which unfortunately can't tutor for Excavator), and 2 other creatures for a full playset of Excavator, replacing Rishadan Port with Ghost Quarter and playing some number of Horizon Canopy as a combined GW source/card advantage engine. Is this a stupid shower thought or does it merit actual testing?

See the list at the bottom of my article (http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?p=1179). That's a good starting point.

[colo]

Field of Ruin
Land

T: Add C to your mana pool

2, T, Sacrifice Field of Ruin: Destroy target nonbasic land. Each player searches his or her library for a basic land card and puts it onto the battlefield, then shuffles his or her library.

An imho rather interesting 5th Wasteland - with D&T's number of basics, compared to most of the field, this could quite realistically 0-for-1 the opponent. Cool stuff!

[iatee]

This card seems really good. I dunno how exactly it could fit into our manabase, but against Delver decks or decks that already fetched their 1-2 basics, it's a Wasteland with card advantage attached.

[CptHaddock]

What's up with some of the random cards that people have suggested for the 4c Control matchups? The matchup is difficult but this deck has a lot of the tools it needs to win that matchup postboard without playing random things. The best cards in the MU are things that generate incremental value i.e. Palace Jailer/Gideon and P&K if you are running the red splash. If you really want to beat you need to retool your sideboard to play these cards but at the same time it's coming at a cost of some other matchups.

[grayryker]

What's up with some of the random cards that people have suggested for the 4c Control matchups? The matchup is difficult but this deck has a lot of the tools it needs to win that matchup postboard without playing random things. The best cards in the MU are things that generate incremental value i.e. Palace Jailer/Gideon and P&K if you are running the red splash. If you really want to beat you need to retool your sideboard to play these cards but at the same time it's coming at a cost of some other matchups.

The deck doesn't have the consistency to find such sideboard cards. Even for things like Palace Jailer, we're playing 3 copies at the most if we're playing 2 Recruiter of the Guards. Maintaining Monarch is also risky in this match-up so Gideon is easily the better option, except chances are you might not even draw it. I don't think P&K is that good in this match-up... it's usually half a Lingering Souls. There aren't any "I win" cards against Czech Pile which is difficult because they have plenty of such cards in the main against us. Probably the closest thing to such a card would be Magus of the Moon.

[CptHaddock]

The deck doesn't have the consistency to find such sideboard cards. Even for things like Palace Jailer, we're playing 3 copies at the most if we're playing 2 Recruiter of the Guards. Maintaining Monarch is also risky in this match-up so Gideon is easily the better option, except chances are you might not even draw it. I don't think P&K is that good in this match-up... it's usually half a Lingering Souls. There aren't any "I win" cards against Czech Pile which is difficult because they have plenty of such cards in the main against us. Probably the closest thing to such a card would be Magus of the Moon.

I'm not saying that you should play singletons of each of these cards especially if you are running the bare minimum number of recruiters. Maintaining monarch isn't really difficult in the matchup. They play a total 13-14 creatures and you should somewhat be controlling the board when monarch comes down. Obviously playing Monarch in a behind board state is probably a bad idea but in general you are going to force them to either attack unprofitably or play out a snapcaster mage when they didn't want to. P&K is basically a lingering souls with upside, if you ever get karakas + them active it is not hard to take over a game. They demand an immediate answer and if your opponent doesn't have one, they're very far behind. If you take a look at the person who did well with mon

I don't think there are any I win tools in this matchup either unless you somehow find a way to land a turn 1 blood moon each game. Cards like rip are also very good.

[WashableWater1]

What's up with some of the random cards that people have suggested for the 4c Control matchups? The matchup is difficult but this deck has a lot of the tools it needs to win that matchup postboard without playing random things. The best cards in the MU are things that generate incremental value i.e. Palace Jailer/Gideon and P&K if you are running the red splash. If you really want to beat you need to retool your sideboard to play these cards but at the same time it's coming at a cost of some other matchups.

Czech is a newer deck thst we've got around a 50/50 matchup against, and it feels like it could be bettet, so it's worth thinking about new and different ways to approach it and attack it. Most of these ideas are bad or ultimately not worth running in an open field. That being said, brainstorming new ideas can't hurt. It's how I ended up on Cataclysm, which is the closest thing to a instant win card that we have access to now. The old ways that Taxes would beat control and midrange (i.e. Gideon or Palace Jailer) are significantly less potent against Czech Pile. Gideon dies much easier, and Palace Jailer, in my opinion, makes you more likely to lose.

Right now the two things that I want to improve about the deck are the Czech Pile and Grixis Delver matchups. Both feel like they're close to 50/50 but they should be favorable. It's possible that there exists a build of Taxes that's slightly favorable against both. Let's find it.

[Raizen884]

If I'm not wrong that is the reason for an increasing number of Main deck Spirit of the Labyrinth, some using even like 3 on MD, and decreasing 1 beater like Serra if you have 2 or Mirran and a Phyrexian Revoker. SotL is pretty good against grixis because of all draw shenanigans like probe for Young Pyromancer and it closes Leovold C.A and other stuff...

Not sure if that is the right movement, but I guess Spirit is much better at these matchups than Revoker, even though I see it much better against delver than Czech Pile

[WashableWater1]

If I'm not wrong that is the reason for an increasing number of Main deck Spirit of the Labyrinth, some using even like 3 on MD, and decreasing 1 beater like Serra if you have 2 or Mirran and a Phyrexian Revoker. SotL is pretty good against grixis because of all draw shenanigans like probe for Young Pyromancer and it closes Leovold C.A and other stuff...

Not sure if that is the right movement, but I guess Spirit is much better at these matchups than Revoker, even though I see it much better against delver than Czech Pile

The problem that I've always had with Spirit is that he's an x-1 and dies to a Deathrite or Elemental token. I sort of consider Sanctum Prelate to be the final nail in Spirits coffin, in that he shuts down the most played draw spells. That being said, Revoker is certainly worse than he has been in a long while with miracles gone. I could see trying out Spirits again.

[grayryker]

I'm not saying that you should play singletons of each of these cards especially if you are running the bare minimum number of recruiters. Maintaining monarch isn't really difficult in the matchup. They play a total 13-14 creatures and you should somewhat be controlling the board when monarch comes down. Obviously playing Monarch in a behind board state is probably a bad idea but in general you are going to force them to either attack unprofitably or play out a snapcaster mage when they didn't want to. P&K is basically a lingering souls with upside, if you ever get karakas + them active it is not hard to take over a game. They demand an immediate answer and if your opponent doesn't have one, they're very far behind. If you take a look at the person who did well with mon

I don't think there are any I win tools in this matchup either unless you somehow find a way to land a turn 1 blood moon each game. Cards like rip are also very good.

How do you control the board when they're removing cards left and right with 2-for-1s? Toxic Deluge, K-command, Snapcaster Mage, Liliana multiple edicts, 4 Baleful Strix, etc. This is what makes Monarch difficult to maintain. I've played the match from both ends of the table and Czech Pile is definitely 60/40 at least. The way you win this match-up is they have a slow hand + you have a decent mana denial hand or you get stoneforge mystic out early and they don't have a K-Command.

Why do people always talk about P&K and Karakas in the same sentence? The probability that you'll have both on the table is very low. It's not even a guaranteed win condition if you pull it off. It's also a card that requires heavy red investment, which is why a lot of RW builds don't play it. I feel like most of my disagreements with people here is they severely overestimate the probability of their gameplan (e.g turn 1 vial turn 2 thalia + wasteland seems to happen most games in their mind).

You don't need a turn 1 blood moon. They basically lose to blood moon in the late game unless you can't answer their threats (none of which except Jace is too difficult to deal with). Rest in Peace is okay in this match-up but is a mixed bag because it's terrible if you draw it late.

[grayryker]

If I'm not wrong that is the reason for an increasing number of Main deck Spirit of the Labyrinth, some using even like 3 on MD, and decreasing 1 beater like Serra if you have 2 or Mirran and a Phyrexian Revoker. SotL is pretty good against grixis because of all draw shenanigans like probe for Young Pyromancer and it closes Leovold C.A and other stuff...

Not sure if that is the right movement, but I guess Spirit is much better at these matchups than Revoker, even though I see it much better against delver than Czech Pile

I've seen some lists that play SoL but honestly, the card is so bad. I laugh when people talk about "oh but you can vial it in response to their brainstorm" when the card does nothing in way too many match-ups and scenarios.

[LyleCInDaHouse]

An imho rather interesting 5th Wasteland - with D&T's number of basics, compared to most of the field, this could quite realistically 0-for-1 the opponent. Cool stuff!

let me introduce you to my friend ghost quarter

[Colin]

Is anyone making the trip to EE7 this weekend?

[Medea_]

Is anyone making the trip to EE7 this weekend?

My initial travel plans fell through. I'm about 50% to go at this point, depending on if one of my roommates gets off work.

[Marungo]

Is anyone making the trip to EE7 this weekend?

Sadly no :( Work and school and life are all getting in the way. Good luck to my fellow DNT compatriots. Represent us well and if you find a way to consistently crush 4c so it feels less 50-50 to slightly unfavorable, let me know haha.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

How is rest in peace not just a hoser to the deck (Czech Pile)? I mean, it turns off DRS, Snapcaster, and a mode of Kommand. It seems to me that with that kind of disruption it would be difficult to close out games due to having such a weak clock.

I get I'm either obviously completely wrong or am missing a significant piece of the puzzle, but that's how I keep seeing it. Maybe it's just a matter of drawing it?



Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

[Warden]

How is rest in peace not just a hoser to the deck (Czech Pile)? I mean, it turns off DRS, Snapcaster, and a mode of Kommand. It seems to me that with that kind of disruption it would be difficult to close out games due to having such a weak clock.

I get I'm either obviously completely wrong or am missing a significant piece of the puzzle, but that's how I keep seeing it. Maybe it's just a matter of drawing it?



Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

Czech Pile gains value through the GY but isn't entirely dependent upon it (a reason the deck is so strong is because of this resiliency). Strix still gets them cards + plays defense well. Snapcaster is still a flashable dude. Planeswalkers still function.

Hitting their extremely fragile manabase is where they will feel it the most since they are entirely dependent upon fetch/duals and cards with (color)(color) costs. Port also does a lot of damage early. Prelate, Thalia, Canonist, and [insert taxing effect] are powerful. Thalia 2.0 (should you run her) is big against them as well.

[WashableWater1]

Czech Pile gains value through the GY but isn't entirely dependent upon it (a reason the deck is so strong is because of this resiliency). Strix still gets them cards + plays defense well. Snapcaster is still a flashable dude. Planeswalkers still function.

Hitting their extremely fragile manabase is where they will feel it the most since they are entirely dependent upon fetch/duals and cards with (color)(color) costs. Port also does a lot of damage early. Prelate, Thalia, Canonist, and [insert taxing effect] are powerful. Thalia 2.0 (should you run her) is big against them as well.

While Snapcaster and Deathrite are still cards with a RIP in play, neither of them are very good at all. RiP serves as a good hoser in that it makes a good chunk of their deck just bad. 2 mana 2/1s and 7 mana 5/5's arent exactly great. They run a manabase thats similar to Shardless'; in that while there are draws where you can easily beat them by aggressively attacking mana, a good number of their draws will contain enough mana to shrug off a wasteland or two. Canonist is a card that I sincerely do not like in the matchup. Being an artifact makes it a liability, but it certainly has its uses against cantrips and Snapcasters.


A little update on my experiences with Cataclysm. Against Czech and Stoneblade and Miracles, it has won me almost every game that I've cast it. One game I didnt win involved them already having a true name and a jitte on board, another I was on no creatures and they drew out of it before I did. In each of these cases, Gideon would have lost just as well as Cataclysm. Flagstones of Trokair is not quite as free as I had hoped. Blood Moon and RIP both make it a little awkward, but being able to be ahead on mana post Cataclysm has won me many games.

Cataclysm has taken a spot in my build over Gideon. It obviously is a very different card, but here is why I like it better. Gideon's role for me was most often making a 2/2 every turn, and very occasionally attacking for 5 or dropping an emblem. He acted as an incremental advantage card, but one that I found my opponents were able to deal with more often than I liked. There is pretty much never a time when I would have a Gideon in hand and not play it if able. He did about the same thing whether you were ahead, behind or even. Cataclysm is a much different beast. I have had games where I had one in hand and didn't cast it. Its at its best when you're really behind, where it will sometimes just completely turn games around. I've had Czech sacrifice a board full of creatures, I've had it eat Jace's, I've had it just eat 4 lands and have that be enough. In these cases, I went from losing to even or only slightly behind. When you're ahead, there are times when you dont want to cast it. In my experience, this is most often when you have a board presence and they're already choked up on lands. Ive had games where Lands got stuck on 3 lands, where I valued two of my creatures more than two of their lands for example. When your boards are about on par with each other, which happens against Czech reasonably often after you trade bunch of resources, it can set you both back to one land. While this may seem even, decks like Czech and Miracles and Stoneblade need more mana to operate, and contain less overall. If you're both trying to dig out of one land, you'll often end up being able to draw the one land you need to get going while they need to dig for two. Games where you get to keep a Vial are also pretty lopsided. All in all, against the decks that I added it for its been one of my favorite cards to resolve.

Against decks that I didn't initially put in in the board for it has ended up being very potent as well. Against Elves, resolving a Cataclysm is one way to recoup your loses after they spam the board. Against Eldrazi and Goblins and Merfolk, I'm very happy having a card that can act as a Wrath of sorts as well. Against decks like MUD or Nic Fit or Big Mana Eldrazi or Cloudpost, the effect of reducing them to one land can be absolutely devastating. As a sideboard card, it has vastly over-performed against the weird decks that you face in big Legacy events. Gideon as a card felt significantly more narrow. I would bring it in against a lot of people, but it would quite often be underwelming.

As for the Cataclysm vs Armageddon debate, I find myself liking Cataclysm significantly more. While those games where I'm ahead on board and don't want to cast a Cataclysm happen, the games where you are behind and cast a Cataclysm happen more frequently. Blowing up all the lands is amazing when you're ahead and abysmal if you're behind. As such, as much as it pains me, I would not recommend Armageddon at this time. You're mostly bringing it in against removal heavy decks, so you would often find yourself with 0 lands and no threatening creatures in play.

[Marungo]

While Snapcaster and Deathrite are still cards with a RIP in play, neither of them are very good at all. RiP serves as a good hoser in that it makes a good chunk of their deck just bad. 2 mana 2/1s and 7 mana 5/5's arent exactly great. They run a manabase thats similar to Shardless'; in that while there are draws where you can easily beat them by aggressively attacking mana, a good number of their draws will contain enough mana to shrug off a wasteland or two. Canonist is a card that I sincerely do not like in the matchup. Being an artifact makes it a liability, but it certainly has its uses against cantrips and Snapcasters.


A little update on my experiences with Cataclysm. Against Czech and Stoneblade and Miracles, it has won me almost every game that I've cast it. One game I didnt win involved them already having a true name and a jitte on board, another I was on no creatures and they drew out of it before I did. In each of these cases, Gideon would have lost just as well as Cataclysm. Flagstones of Trokair is not quite as free as I had hoped. Blood Moon and RIP both make it a little awkward, but being able to be ahead on mana post Cataclysm has won me many games.

Cataclysm has taken a spot in my build over Gideon. It obviously is a very different card, but here is why I like it better. Gideon's role for me was most often making a 2/2 every turn, and very occasionally attacking for 5 or dropping an emblem. He acted as an incremental advantage card, but one that I found my opponents were able to deal with more often than I liked. There is pretty much never a time when I would have a Gideon in hand and not play it if able. He did about the same thing whether you were ahead, behind or even. Cataclysm is a much different beast. I have had games where I had one in hand and didn't cast it. Its at its best when you're really behind, where it will sometimes just completely turn games around. I've had Czech sacrifice a board full of creatures, I've had it eat Jace's, I've had it just eat 4 lands and have that be enough. In these cases, I went from losing to even or only slightly behind. When you're ahead, there are times when you dont want to cast it. In my experience, this is most often when you have a board presence and they're already choked up on lands. Ive had games where Lands got stuck on 3 lands, where I valued two of my creatures more than two of their lands for example. When your boards are about on par with each other, which happens against Czech reasonably often after you trade bunch of resources, it can set you both back to one land. While this may seem even, decks like Czech and Miracles and Stoneblade need more mana to operate, and contain less overall. If you're both trying to dig out of one land, you'll often end up being able to draw the one land you need to get going while they need to dig for two. Games where you get to keep a Vial are also pretty lopsided. All in all, against the decks that I added it for its been one of my favorite cards to resolve.

Against decks that I didn't initially put in in the board for it has ended up being very potent as well. Against Elves, resolving a Cataclysm is one way to recoup your loses after they spam the board. Against Eldrazi and Goblins and Merfolk, I'm very happy having a card that can act as a Wrath of sorts as well. Against decks like MUD or Nic Fit or Big Mana Eldrazi or Cloudpost, the effect of reducing them to one land can be absolutely devastating. As a sideboard card, it has vastly over-performed against the weird decks that you face in big Legacy events. Gideon as a card felt significantly more narrow. I would bring it in against a lot of people, but it would quite often be underwelming.

As for the Cataclysm vs Armageddon debate, I find myself liking Cataclysm significantly more. While those games where I'm ahead on board and don't want to cast a Cataclysm happen, the games where you are behind and cast a Cataclysm happen more frequently. Blowing up all the lands is amazing when you're ahead and abysmal if you're behind. As such, as much as it pains me, I would not recommend Armageddon at this time. You're mostly bringing it in against removal heavy decks, so you would often find yourself with 0 lands and no threatening creatures in play.

I appreciate your thoughts and how descriptive and well thought out they were. It makes me wanna try cataclysm again, a card I have never loved and always felt was a strictly worse armageddon.

That being said I feel that with miracles as we knew it gone, I no longer feel the armageddon vs cataclysm argument is necessary. Cataclysm is better right now. The question is cataclysm vs Gideon. In theory you can run both, but I don't love 4 4 drops that come in the same matchup in my board. I just don't think they synergize well and the board is cramped as is. So is Cataclysm better than Gideon? I don't know, but I love me a good Gideon and I feel it comes down to play style. I wanna test it out before I make any more assumptions, but like I said, I have a prejudice against cataclysm so it'll be tough.

[pedro]

After some testing, I went back to this "old" Enevoldsen/Wescoe version (I found it online, maybe in december)

creatures:
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Flickerwisp
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Palace Jailer
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Serra Avenger

other spells:
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

lands (23):
10 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Cavern of Souls

sideboard:
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Rest in Peace
2 Path to Exile
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Council's Judgment
1 Pithing Needle

I played it for months and I think it's well balanced. Maybe the mono serra avenger has not much sense and the palace jailer could be replaced by something else. For sure one of the best decklist I ever played of D&T.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I agree it's close to (about 3 cards from) ideal.

I think Jailer is bad now that miracles is a different deck than it used to be, and that I prefer a second Crusader. I dislike Serra Avenger, however I understand that most people see her as a pretty powerful card. I think most DnT players would agree that 2 of her is probably pretty close to optimal these days. Some may prefer 3, I do not. I like Spirit of the Labyrinth, but I think it's not so good at the moment. The only other thing I can see that some players may disagree with is the number of Cavern of Souls to play.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

[from Cairo]

I agree with Secretly.A.Bee. Last list I was on matched the one 2 posts up - Jailor, -Spirit of the Lab; + Mirran #2 + Serra #2.

I've caught a little bit of discussion around Cataclysm grabbing it's slot back from Gideon, Ally of Zendikar - not sure where I stand on that. Gideon seems a little more balanced, when it can come down it always does [something]. Cataclysm seems more swingy, same cost and can be a haymaker or be stranded as the opponent would hold superior board post 'Clysm. I might try Cataclysm back in those 2x 4cc "grindy long game" slots.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

At this point with the meta being what it is, I'm pretty sure the Gideon/Cataclysm debate can go either way. Play to your strengths and board to your weaknesses.

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[Tovarisch]

Is anyone making the trip to EE7 this weekend?

I just got back from playing in the main event with DnT. I can write more about it tomorrow.

[iatee]

I made EE t8 with this:

(25)
4 Thalia
4 SfM
4 Mom
2 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Revoker
2 Magus of the Moon
3 Flickerwisp
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Vryn Wingmare
1 Palace Jailer
1 Pia/Kiran

(11)
4 Vial
4 StP
Bskull/Sofi/Jitte


(24)
4 Wasteland
4 Port
3 Karkas
3 Plains
5 Fetchland
2 Plateau
3 Cavern

SB:
3 Path
2 RiP
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Leonin Relic Warder
1 Fiendslayer Paladin
1 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Pia/Kiran
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Cunning Sparkmage
1 Containment Priest

My wins were Czech Pile, Miracles, Big Red, a Golgari midrange deck splashing Brainstorm/Leovold, Grixis Delver, Nic Fit, DnT. My only loss in the swiss was on camera to the Burn player who made the finals. Lost on camera in the t8 to UW Miracles. Stream is here: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/175282348?t=05h07m07s

I think I punted g3 by fetching Pia/Kiran instead of a Flickerwisp with Recruiter. I thought I had it in the bag before that, sitting on 2 Moms, Thalia, Revoker, Vial + a Prelate in hand, ready to stop a Terminus - I really didn't see Supreme Verdict coming and was a little shell-shocked. I played g1 really well, it's a shame that one wasn't on camera, it was very long and involved a lot of Porting and Pia/Kiran bouncing.

Pia/Kiran was really good all day. Fiendslayer Paladin was a little too slow vs Burn but was good vs Pile. I only won one game off Magus all day, but that was a game vs BUG where I was really far behind and wouldn't have won otherwise. Overall I liked my list a lot and I'm not sure I would change much in the near future. Post-board this build is very good at going toe-to-toe with the value decks.

[grayryker]

I think Dusk/Dawn is a card that's well worth the consideration in the Gideon vs Cataclysm debate. I'm surprised it's been this overlooked. Being able to wipe power 3 or greater is a sweet spot that cards like Retribution of the Meek lacked: Leovold, Tarmogoyf, True-Name Nemesis, Gurmag Angler, basically every Eldrazi, etc. while keeping your own threats alive is great.

The aftermath effect (return all creatures power 2 or less from graveyard to hand) is an insane form of card advantage against decks that you know will deal boardwipes against you. So this is not a card you want against Miracles where they will exile or shift cards to the deck. In some situations, Cataclysm is better against Czech Pile if you need to get rid of a Jace or a lot of Baleful Strix/ shaman, though even here it can be rather situational. Otherwise, Dusk/Dawn seems absolutely more dominant as it has two relevant effects in one card that is good both when you're behind and when you're ahead. The card is also not bad against the mirror to gain footing against flyers (serra avenger, flickerwisp) and equipped creatures, but Gideon is more reliable here. I could see this against Grixis Delver for Delvers, Angler, Leovold, and True-name, though it's a shame it doesn't wipe tokens and shamans.

So yes tinker around and pick whichever one is best for your meta. I think this card has a lot of potential because it's a one-sided boardwipe which also replenish your creatures.



Also for anyone playing a red splash and want to test new cards, Quicksmith Rebel would be the card I would recommend. I've only tested him a couple times but so far, he's been phenomenal. He is significantly easier to cast than Pia and Kia while also being more dominant in a lot of match-ups. Even if he dies right away, you'll usually get some value out of him. If he stays alive, it's constant value against DnT, Czech Pile, Delver, Goblins, etc.

I wouldn't play him unless you also play Chalice of the Void; try to play 11 artifacts + 2-3 Phyrexian Revoker. That's about 25% of the deck and with 7 draws + Stoneforge, you'll usually have an artifact on the field. Chalice also gives extra protection to Rebel and is usually your best target as it actually becomes a formidable form of removal.

[RobNC]

iatee - your third match against Miracles was heartbreaking to watch. I was rooting for you so hard (and from my understanding, so was the chat!).

[iatee]

Thanks Rob, that's really nice to hear.

More notes - I might have got the order of some of these matches wrong. I didn't win a die roll all day, but I also didn't play against any combo decks, it only probably mattered vs Burn and Grixis Delver.

Miracles (2-0)

- 3c Soothicles. Games weren't very close - he had Counterbalance both games which countered a total of 0 spells and I had Cavern + Pia/Kiran both games

SB: +1 Recruiter, +1 Pia/Kiran, +1 Crusader, +1 Ethersworn
-1 Jitte, -1 STP, -2 Magus

Czech Pile (2-1)

G1 - I have a Thalia/Wingmare/Prelate/Revoker on DRS start, and Kolaghan's Command + a million mana is really the only thing that can get him out of it, but he manages to get it, one turn after I get a Mom out.
G2 - Don't remember
G3 - He had LotV on 1 vs Fiendslayer, 2 RiP, Vial on 3. I draw into Pia/Kiran and pray he doesn't uptick Lili. He doesn't - with Vial on 3 he calculates that he's just gonna be throwing away a card. He casts Marsh Casualties instead to finally get Fiendslayer off the board - I get Pia/Kiran out next turn with Karakas and can't lose.

SB: +2 RiP, +1 Fiendslayer, +1 Pia/Kiran, +1 Crusader, +1 Recruiter
-2 StP, - 1 Flickerwisp, -1 Wingmare, -1 Sanctum Prelate, -1 Revoker

Big Red (2-0)

G1 - He had a Blood Moon hand g1 and I had tons of Mana Denial. Surprise block his Sin Prodder with Sfm + Vialed in Mom.
G2 - He had a hand filled with powerful 4 drops and Sudden Demise, but he couldn't cast any spells past Port and didn't draw into more lands

SB: +Relic-Warder, Recruiter, Pia/Kiran, Fiendslayer Paladin
- Cavern, 2 Magus, Jitte

Nic Fit (2-0)

G1 - He mulls to 5 g1 and I STP his Veteran Explorer and Wasteland him, cast MAgus.
G2 - He's ends up with something like 12 lands, but one of his only payoff cards is Tasigur which I have Revoker/Karakas for. I have Paths for the Siege Rhinos he casts and GSZs into. He has Deed, but I have Pia/Kiran + Karakas + Sfm + Batterskull, so I'm actually pretty fine with him using it, even a second time after Eternal Witness.

SB: +3 Path, Recruiter, Pia/Kiran, Crusader, Containment Priest
- 4 Thalia, -1 Wingmare, -1 Fetchland, -1 Prelate

If there had been a g3 I would have probably taken out Maguses and maybe a Wasteland. G1 I saw lots of nonbasics but after g2 it was clear he must have had something like 8-9 basics in his deck, it was on the high side even for Nic Fit.

Golgari/Leovold deck (2-1)

G1 - we both mull, but I have a Thalia/Wingmare start which really hampers him. Eventually he comes close to getting out of it with Dark Confidant and Deathrites, but just doesn't have time

G2 - At a certain point the board is: Dark Confidant + two DRS + Needle on Mom + attacking Grim Flayer vs 3 Moms, Recruiter, Revoker on DRS, Mirran Crusader. He attacks with a not-turned-on Grim Flayer - I know he has an Abrupt Decay in hand from Dark Confidant. I end up triple blocking with Moms - I could have thrown the Recruiter in too, but I figured I might draw a Flickerwisp. He ended up Decaying his own Dark Confidant to turn on Flayer - I didn't expect that, since it seemed like Decaying my Revoker was the best way for him to not die to my Mirran Crusader. The play he made was probably ultimately wrong, but I was also a little annoyed I didn't see it. Anyway, eventually at one life he casts Marsh Casualties to wipe the board, leaving himself with Leovold + Grim Flayer.

G3 - Keep a one land Vial hand with Mom, Mom, Revoker, Magus. I don't draw more lands. He has a lot of fetchlands and fetches nonbasics to play around Wasteland, which ends up being a pretty bad decision. T3 he taps out for Leovold. I StP it and Vial in Magus.

SB:
Mirran Crusader, Recruiter, 3 Paths (sucks cause he had basics, but he also had too many must answer threats like Dark Confidant and Grim Flayer), 2 RiP
-1 Flickerwisp -1 Sanctum Prelate -1 Wingmare -1 Revoker -1 Pia/Kiran (I saw Wastelands g1, but I decided to bring it back in anyway g3), -1 Jitte, - Fetchland I think?

Grixis Delver (2-0)

G1 - We get deck checked and start the round pretty late. G1 he Dazes my Vial and has a very early Angler, but is also really short on mana due to Thalia + Wasteland. Eventually I Recruiter into Prelate on 1 and outrace his Angler.

G2 - He forces my Vial with a TNN then plays a TNN. I get a Batterskull out which makes it hard for him to race. Eventually the board is Grim Lavamancer + Angler + TNN vs Thalia, Batterskull and I think I'm at something like 8-10 life. My hand is Sofi, RiP, Mom, Swords. I StP his Angler, then cast Mom to ensure that he doesn't Lavamancer my face. Next turn I cast RiP and he Lavamancers my Thalia - this actually ends up helping me because now I can cast Sofi and hook it up to Batterskull. He knew I had Sofi in hand, so this was a mistake, he really needed to hold me off from doing that until he found an answer to Batterskull.

+3 Path, +2 RiP, +Sparkmage, + Fiendslayer
-2 Revoker, -1 Palace Jailer, -Pia/Kiran, -1 Recruiter, -1 Flickerwisp, -1 Vryn Wingmare

Having seen 2 TNNs I might have boarded a Flickerwisp back in g3 over something.

Burn (0-2)

G1 - He's on the play with Goblin Guide, I have StP and a bunch of Moms and Stoneforges, which is actually a decent hand if he doesn't have anything. After StPing his Guide he plays another which I don't have an answer for (I end up drawing something like 5 lands off the Guides). My creatures eat all of his removal, and eventually I have a Prelate on 1 and Jitte in play vs a summoning sick Grim Lavamancer and tapped Goblin Guide. I attack with the Jitte'd Prelate, he blocks and Searing Blazes it for 1. I kill the Guide with Jitte but he has enough Burn to my face.

G2 - He has a Swiftspear start, I have a SfM that gets Jitte into a Recruiter for Fiendslayer, then cast Fiendslayer. I hit once with the Fiendslayer, but don't have a 4th land to cast Jitte + equip it - if I had I probably would have won, because I gain 6 life there, and next turn he would have played a Vortex, which I could have then Flickerwisp'd + gained 6 more life. Instead I just got Fireblasted out.

+3 Path, + Fiendslayer, +2 Canonist
-2 Revoker, -Pia/Kiran, -Palace Jailer, - Cavern, - Flickerwisp

DnT (2-0)

G1 - Vs a friend, Mike Derczo, who is one of the best DnT players around. We both know what's coming. G1 he mulls to Sfm, but I had Vial + SfM and more mana to get my Jitte online first. One of those "I have an Aether Vial and you don't" mirrors.

G2 - I probably made more small mistakes in this game than I did in the rest of the tournament combined, but I think he made one big one early that ended up mattering more. We both have the dream start with Vial into Sfm, but he fetched Sword of Light and Shadow instead of Jitte, and attempted to shut off my Jitte with Revoker. His problem was that I could let his Revoker with SoLas hit me something like 4 times and could basicallt not care since it's such a nonthreat on its own, especially early when the was nothing to recur in his graveyard. And because Jitte was shut off by Revoker, he couldn't hook a Jitte up to a SoLas'd creature to turn it into a real threat. That gave me a lot of time to set up my board while getting hit by what was effectively a Batterskull. I drew into Pia/Kiran which was also a good answer to SoLas (he had to double Plow it since I had Karakas.). I eventually fetched Cunning Sparkmage and got my Jitte online. The fact that I was at a relatively low life total and he had a SoLas sitting around still scared me and I made a bunch of weird mistakes because I was so focused on thinking of ways he could top-deck his way out of the situation. I also had a Thopter token sitting around that I completely forget about because I used a die instead of bringing tokens.

SB
+3 Path, + Recruiter, + Sparkmage, + Containment Priest (I like it on the draw), + Relic Warder, +Crusader
-4 Thalia, -2 Magus, -1 Wingmare, -1 Sanctum Prelate

Anyway, until now I had always been a little hesitant to keep Pia/Kiran in the mirror because RR vs Wasteland/Port deck where Vials are often shut down is hard - but I think the upside is probably worth it. I don't think I wanted two though.

R9 - Drew into t8 with TES. It was a clean cut.

T8 - UW Miracles (1-2)

G1 - This game prob lasted something like 45 minutes. Afterwards the judge said we'd both get slow play warnings if we kept it up, but I don't think either of us was actually playing particularly slow at all, the game just hinged on me Porting him and getting him to waste the mana during Upkeep/Draw, so we both had to make some pretty nuanced decisions. He Unexpectedly Absents my early Vial and then Forces it - but I have so much mana that I can still do things like cast Recruiter through Cavern and Double port. Eventually I fetch Pia/Kiran and keep Karakas up, and he just can't beat that.
G2 - Pretty boring game thanks to Back to Basics. That card is pretty punishing for this deck.
G3 - Have pretty much the perfect opening hand with Vial+Port into Thalia+Mom into Revoker, sitting on a Prelate, I keep waiting for him to Terminus - I actually really want him to, because then Prelate can add to my clock. Instead he casts Back to Basics, which shuts off the Port, then Supreme Verdicts. I still Sanctum Prelate after that, now on 1, and have a Recruiter, which I use to get a Pia/Kiran, attempting to find a way to finish him off ASAP. This was a mistake, and Flickerwisp chains probably would have done it, though if he had enough removal he could still possibly deal with them.

After he takes over the game - he's at one life, I have a Vial on 4 and he's Jace fatesealing me with a Gideon in play - he bottoms something and I draw another Pia/Kiran with Vial on 4, which means if he doesn't have an instant speed Terminus or Snapcaster + Stp, I probably actually stole a game he had locked up. Unfortunately he had Snapcaster + Brainstorm / Terminus.

SB:
+Recruiter, +Pia/Kiran, +2 Ethersworn
- Plains, StP, -2 Magus
After seeing Back to Basics I switched Plains to Plateau and switched an Ethersworn for Relic-Warder.

We didn't get decklists, and it would have benefited me enormously, because I could have seen Back to Basics + Supreme Verdict coming, and that his manabase was so clean that Wasteland was close to a dead card. I probably would have sided -2 Wasteland, -2 Magus.

[IsThisACatInAHat?]

How do you respond to allegations that you've betrayed the people who rooted for you in top 11? What about Frank?

[iatee]

I thought about playing a Frank in the board actually. Now that everyone thinks it's bad, it's probably good.

[CptHaddock]

Big Red (2-0)

G1 - He had a Blood Moon hand g1 and I had tons of Mana Denial. Surprise block his Sin Prodder with Sfm + Vialed in Mom.
G2 - He had a hand filled with powerful 4 drops and Sudden Demise, but he couldn't cast any spells past Port and didn't draw into more lands

SB: +Relic-Warder, Recruiter, Pia/Kiran, Fiendslayer Paladin
- Cavern, 2 Magus, Jitte


Do you think this game was won because your opponent wasn't running Legacy staple Rite of Flame?

[iatee]

My opponent was a terrible player, so I'm not sure it would have mattered.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Do you think this game was won because your opponent wasn't running Legacy staple Rite of Flame?Maybe you have your decks turned around, or perhaps I'm just missing sarcasm, but big red is a mono-red chalice stompy list. I can't imagine Rite of Flame helping.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

[Medea_]

I thought about playing a Frank in the board actually. Now that everyone thinks it's bad, it's probably good.

Came for quality Legacy content. Was not disappointed.

[ChrisCunningham]

I'd like your opinions on Prelate number in a specific matchup: I keep running into High Tide on MTGO. I'm playing Chalices and Prelates.

When I have a Chalice on 1, my instinct is to try to protect the Chalice. In that case, the relevant opposing spells are: Rebuild, Hurkyl's Recall, Echoing Truth, Wipe Away, Snap, and Cunning Wish. I have been naming 3 since I feel like it is a tie between all the 2s and 3s listed above, and because when I name 2, sometimes they bounce my Chalice and I can't replay it for X = 1. But I don't really know.

The other option would be to just name 1 so they have to answer two things before casting High Tide itself, and the cantrips. Maybe that simple answer is the best. Should I be naming 1?

[CptHaddock]

My opponent was a terrible player, so I'm not sure it would have mattered.

Wow and you scumbagged your opponent with your 1 off naturally drawn Vryn Wingmare.


Maybe you have your decks turned around, or perhaps I'm just missing sarcasm, but big red is a mono-red chalice stompy list. I can't imagine Rite of Flame helping.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

What is the issue? Rite of Flame is a busted card.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Sure.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

[iatee]

Just to make this thread slightly less confusing...CptHaddock was my Big Red opponent.

[redtwister]

Congrats iatee!

[Marungo]

Yes I did not get the opportunity earlier, but congratulations! I may not be a fan of the splash versions, but you clearly have a mastery and understanding of the version and it showed!

[Colin]

I also played EE7 on Monowhite D&T. 2 crusader, 2 avenger, 3 revoker, 1 prelate, 2 recruiter in the flex spots. zero cavern, 2 flagstone, 1 cataclysm in the board. I feel like this is a super standard setup.

I dropped at x-3 after the losing in the 8th round to, of all decks, lands. Where I beat him game 1 in 5 minutes, then game two i drew 15 total lands (playing 23), while being wasteland/loam/molten vortex locked, and game 3 where I saw 3 total lands, all non-basic and got locked by the same again. I saw 0 sideboard cards in both games. I was just done on the bads beats after this one. My other loses included a super close 3 game stint against czech pile where my revoker naming liliana of the veil, did not stop liliana the last hope, and a storm player coming down to game 3 and having to shuffle on a ponder and topdeck infernal tutor or lose. Needless to say he top decked an infernal tutor.

I believe I only had 2 potential play mistakes in my loses that had potential to change the outcome.

I beat: Czech pile, U/B standstill, D&T, B/R reanimator, and Grxis Delver.

The only thing i took from this tournament that hasn't been discussed ad nasueam in this forum is a 1 of Sword of Light and Shadow in the board for Czech pile and for the mirror. It was amazing all day.

I searched it up first in every game against czech pile/rock/D&T and it was overwhelmingly awesome. I search it first against Pile because it is the equipmentI feel we can most afford to lose to discard/early koligan's command as it is also a non-bo with the best sideboard card: RIP.

Against Czech pile it put Deathrite on creature removal duty, fouling his and slowing his clock. Racing a true name or angler was never easier, deluge doesn't matter when bring back stoneforge and go get more equipment. Flying past strix is also huge, they rely on that more than i thought. It also gave me time to draw into a RIP in 3 of 4 sideboarded games. which feels awesome to play after they deal with the sword.

In the D&T mirror being able to swing attacks where you will trade creatures while threatening to bring them back with SoLS feels very strong.

Also the rock/bug/etc decks having to choose to shoot your sword with abrupt decay instead of the creatures or vial was very relevant.

I'm not saying Sword of Light and Shadow is "the answer", but it was great for me in this event.

I believe I will also be moving up to 3 RIP in the board from 2, as revoker feels worse every day and RIP splashes against so many decks right now.

[iatee]

Yeah, I've also felt that Revoker is not at its best these days, RiP is just a more reliable way to beat Deathrite. My default is 2, however, and I don't think you can really go below that since Revoker is often our way of dealing with random legacy nonsense cards.

One thing I really liked in my SB that I think is probably an under-explored option was the extra Recruiter. Pre-Conspiracy 2 I was playing 3-4 Imperial Recruiters main and I've been missing some of the long-game consistency that came with that. That was also Miracles era and the card is obviously amazing vs them - but I think it is great vs Czech Pile too and pretty much comes in vs every non-Wasteland deck in the format + even some Wasteland decks e.g. the mirror, where a good % of my games seem to come down to who finds a Recruiter first. Recruiter is generally more powerful for the splash builds because they have a wider variety of targets, but I think mono-W could still consider it too.

[Marungo]

Yeah, I've also felt that Revoker is not at its best these days, RiP is just a more reliable way to beat Deathrite. My default is 2, however, and I don't think you can really go below that since Revoker is often our way of dealing with random legacy nonsense cards.

One thing I really liked in my SB that I think is probably an under-explored option was the extra Recruiter. Pre-Conspiracy 2 I was playing 3-4 Imperial Recruiters main and I've been missing some of the long-game consistency that came with that. That was also Miracles era and the card is obviously amazing vs them - but I think it is great vs Czech Pile too and pretty much comes in vs every non-Wasteland deck in the format + even some Wasteland decks e.g. the mirror, where a good % of my games seem to come down to who finds a Recruiter first. Recruiter is generally more powerful for the splash builds because they have a wider variety of targets, but I think mono-W could still consider it too.

I noticed you played 24 lands too. Was that good for you all day? Did you get flooded at all? I'm trying out a more tutor heavy mono white list and wanted to ask since I am considering cutting a revoker since it's been pretty mediocre as of late. Did you play the extra land for the 11 3+ drops or to counter wasteland decks?

[Colin]

Yeah, I've also felt that Revoker is not at its best these days, RiP is just a more reliable way to beat Deathrite. My default is 2, however, and I don't think you can really go below that since Revoker is often our way of dealing with random legacy nonsense cards.

One thing I really liked in my SB that I think is probably an under-explored option was the extra Recruiter. Pre-Conspiracy 2 I was playing 3-4 Imperial Recruiters main and I've been missing some of the long-game consistency that came with that. That was also Miracles era and the card is obviously amazing vs them - but I think it is great vs Czech Pile too and pretty much comes in vs every non-Wasteland deck in the format + even some Wasteland decks e.g. the mirror, where a good % of my games seem to come down to who finds a Recruiter first. Recruiter is generally more powerful for the splash builds because they have a wider variety of targets, but I think mono-W could still consider it too.

I've been seeing a way larger percentage of snapcaster then i ever remember seeing in the past.

[iatee]

24 lands was for a few reasons:
- If you're playing Pia/Kiran main, you have more incentive to play double Plateau, since g1 it's in your deck vs Wasteland decks.
- I was playing 2 4 drops in the main and one in the board
- 24 lands both lets you play 3 Caverns and 13 pure white sources, which lets you play a million caverns + a splash manabase without actually having fewer pure white sources than a typical DnT deck

I found myself hoping to draw lands more often than I was flooded. I actually really liked this manabase, I feel like it fixes a lot of problems at once and allows you to play more powerful haymakers. Against decks where you're not going to play the 4 drops, e.g. Storm, you can side out one land easily, or even two - you're only stuck with 24 lands game one. It's nice to have an easy side-out option.

[redtwister]

If Czech Pile is the deck to beat, maybe Imperial is just better right now.

24 lands totally makes sense with a maindeck cmc 4.

[iatee]

Yeah, if the deck-to-beat has a greedy manabase, doesn't punish your manabase and tries to grind you out with 2 for 1s, I think Blood Moon and infinite copies of Lingering Souls are a good place to be.

[grayryker]

Sorcerous Spyglass is an interesting new card that I think could see main deck play. It has powerful mana denial application against hands full of fetchlands (not exactly uncommon), the hand information is quite useful for sequencing our plays, and it can hit lands unlike Revoker. I don't know if a non-ancient-tomb build can afford to play it but with ancient tomb, it's a playable turn 1 disruption.



Yeah, if the deck-to-beat has a greedy manabase, doesn't punish your manabase and tries to grind you out with 2 for 1s, I think Blood Moon and infinite copies of Lingering Souls are a good place to be.

Congrats on your placing.

Infinite copies of Lingering Souls seems like a super optimistic way of viewing Pia and Kia.

Not to address you in particular, but I also see this perpetual reasoning of "oh I flooded with only 23 lands" or "I keep getting mana screwed at 23 lands. I should go up to 24" when in reality, there is just no way to psychologically establish a clear difference between the two because the statistical difference between them are so insignificant. Playing an extra source of land because one needs the color fix (e.g an extra Plateau) is completely reasonable but in most cases, the difference between 23 and 24 (or even say, 21 and 22 which are not standard) are not perceptible and mostly confirmation bias when someone feels there is a notable difference. It's an inherent limitation of the deck that this deck sometimes floods and sometimes gets stuck. The only real 'solution' to alleviate this problem is to lower the curve of the deck significantly so that the deck can function off of 2 lands, on top of Port + Wasteland. Not saying this is the way to go, but after the conspiracy set, the deck became significantly more clunky.

Overall, this deck is just extremely mana hungry. On top of Wasteland+Port activation, getting equipments (especially under Thalia) is pretty damn difficult. I've seen too many games thrown away because equipments didn't hit the field quickly enough, which are easily 4-5 mana investments.

[iatee]

- If the game goes long enough, you will have Pia/Kiran, a lot of lands, and a Karakas - eventually you get your infinite Lingering Souls, which is a very strong late game. DnT's normal late game is SfM and busted equipment, which is usually enough to outclass any fair deck that isn't playing TNN+Jitte. But the current deck to beat's end game is Snapcaster+Kolaghan's Command, which ends up being a pretty good answer to SfM. I don't think you can just rely on the equipment package to always get you there, even game 1 (usually the freebie, since people don't tend to play artifact destruction main.)

- I think your argument about 22/23/24 is true when it's in reference to observations over a small sample set. But over a long set of matches with 'generic DnT curve' I've been short mana more often than I've flooded with 23, which is why I think normal DnT wants something like 23.5 and a deck with an especially high curve should sit comfortably at 24. Likewise I've felt generally fine with 13 pure white sources and a tiny bit short on white when I have 12 pure white sources in my deck.

The statistical differences in both cases might be marginal - e.g. someone just won a GP with 22 lands and 12 white sources, clearly it's not unplayable - but if you play and test any deck enough, you do observe patterns, even from marginal differences, so it's not like we should just shrug and conclude that only a higher power could know the truth about our manabase. You test and make changes based on long-term patterns you see.

- I agree that Sorcerous Spyglass is probably better than people give it credit for, and I expect it to be played a decent amount. For Eldrazi it might be close to a strictly-better Pithing Needle, since it isn't a non-bo with Chalice.

[DarthVicious]

I have a few different 'endgame' combos that are pretty neat, but I'm still testing them. I'd like one of my friends to pick up or proxy a Czech list, but whatever. I've been testing an off-color humans type of list, with Pontiff, Meddling Mage, Kambal, and Harsh Mentor out of the board for various things. 4 Caverns main.

Mangara & Karakas needs no introduction. He's only a one-of in my list due to being slow.
Hokori, Dust Drinker and Sword of Feast and Famine is pretty nifty later on. Throw in either Thalia for more fun.
I've also been testing Daxos of Meletis and he's decent for stealing removal they were going to draw, or other things. Built in evasion, and great with a sword of any kind.
Not to mention the usual Batterskull things, or Mirran Crusader.

[LyleCInDaHouse]

I have a few different 'endgame' combos that are pretty neat, but I'm still testing them. I'd like one of my friends to pick up or proxy a Czech list, but whatever. I've been testing an off-color humans type of list, with Pontiff, Meddling Mage, Kambal, and Harsh Mentor out of the board for various things. 4 Caverns main.

Mangara & Karakas needs no introduction. He's only a one-of in my list due to being slow.
Hokori, Dust Drinker and Sword of Feast and Famine is pretty nifty later on. Throw in either Thalia for more fun.
I've also been testing Daxos of Meletis and he's decent for stealing removal they were going to draw, or other things. Built in evasion, and great with a sword of any kind.
Not to mention the usual Batterskull things, or Mirran Crusader.
This sounds closer to 5c humans than a true D&T list (still a good deck, just a different one).
As for Hokori, I've been running it online with some great success. I think it helps shore up the matchups with mana hungry decks like Grixis Control or Czech Pile.Plus it makes lands players cry deeply. Didn't think of adding Sword of Feast and Famine, but seems legit (I had just been abusing Karaks, went up to four copies).

[redtwister]

I find it interesting that the DnT that made Top 8 at the Moxen Event here in Baltimore a couple weeks ago took a strategy somewhat like iatee's in Mono-white, logically speaking: 1 GQ and an Aven Mindcensor main to stress greedy databases, a different way to get to the same place as maindeck Magus of the Moon, and 2 Brimaz, King of Oreskos, a legendary that makes tokens. Now, Brimaz has to attack or block, but that's gonna happen, and the kitty cat parade can get out of hand. Brimaz also has a fat butt, making it resilient to Bolt but it dies to Abrupt decay. PaKNdies to Bolt, but evades Abrupt Decay.

[Marungo]

I find it interesting that the DnT that made Top 8 at the Moxen Event here in Baltimore a couple weeks ago took a strategy somewhat like iatee's in Mono-white, logically speaking: 1 GQ and an Aven Mindcensor main to stress greedy databases, a different way to get to the same place as maindeck Magus of the Moon, and 2 Brimaz, King of Oreskos, a legendary that makes tokens. Now, Brimaz has to attack or block, but that's gonna happen, and the kitty cat parade can get out of hand. Brimaz also has a fat butt, making it resilient to Bolt but it dies to Abrupt decay. PaKNdies to Bolt, but evades Abrupt Decay.

Yeah he didn’t run mindcensor or ghost quarter. I believe you’re getting your lists confused. Here’s the list that top 8’d with brimaz: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=16824&d=304086&f=LE

[grayryker]

- If the game goes long enough, you will have Pia/Kiran, a lot of lands, and a Karakas - eventually you get your infinite Lingering Souls, which is a very strong late game. DnT's normal late game is SfM and busted equipment, which is usually enough to outclass any fair deck that isn't playing TNN+Jitte. But the current deck to beat's end game is Snapcaster+Kolaghan's Command, which ends up being a pretty good answer to SfM. I don't think you can just rely on the equipment package to always get you there, even game 1 (usually the freebie, since people don't tend to play artifact destruction main.)

- I think your argument about 22/23/24 is true when it's in reference to observations over a small sample set. But over a long set of matches with 'generic DnT curve' I've been short mana more often than I've flooded with 23, which is why I think normal DnT wants something like 23.5 and a deck with an especially high curve should sit comfortably at 24. Likewise I've felt generally fine with 13 pure white sources and a tiny bit short on white when I have 12 pure white sources in my deck.

The statistical differences in both cases might be marginal - e.g. someone just won a GP with 22 lands and 12 white sources, clearly it's not unplayable - but if you play and test any deck enough, you do observe patterns, even from marginal differences, so it's not like we should just shrug and conclude that only a higher power could know the truth about our manabase. You test and make changes based on long-term patterns you see.

- I agree that Sorcerous Spyglass is probably better than people give it credit for, and I expect it to be played a decent amount. For Eldrazi it might be close to a strictly-better Pithing Needle, since it isn't a non-bo with Chalice.

My experience with Czech Pile is I don't want the game to go long, because they have plenty of ways to establish 2-for-1s. I see it the same way I viewed the old Miracle matches, where if I didn't even have a Recruiter of the Guards, I couldn't really afford to play the long game when they have Entreat the Angels and Mentor. I think I'd rather play an extra Magus of the Moon to increase the probability of locking them out, rather than trying to grind them out with a card I may not even be able to cast/ combo with. It's about 55% of having one or more Karakas by turn 7, and it's going to be quite a lower with other factors (e.g having Pia and Kia ready to resolve, Wasteland, having Karakas ready, etc.) But if you frequently grind them out with P&K, I'd be interested in retesting it.

Even given a substantial number of matches, it's difficult to establish with any confidence "oh yes I feel extra flooding with 24 lands after this many games" when this could easily be confirmation bias. And perceptions of flooding also vary match to match: how many lands at a given number of turns is 'too much'? I guess the other relevant question is given that you do draw the extra 24th land, how much does this help us vs how much does this hurt us? So an optimal solution is difficult to obtain.

[iatee]

Even given a substantial number of matches, it's difficult to establish with any confidence "oh yes I feel extra flooding with 24 lands after this many games" when this could easily be confirmation bias. And perceptions of flooding also vary match to match: how many lands at a given number of turns is 'too much'? I guess the other relevant question is given that you do draw the extra 24th land, how much does this help us vs how much does this hurt us? So an optimal solution is difficult to obtain.

I broadly agree with what you're saying, but if you go too far in that direction it becomes impossible to make any sort of claim ever. There may not be an optimal solution to our manabase - just like there's never going to be an optimal decklist for any constantly shifting meta. But you play a lot of games and you make adjustments based on long-term patterns you' observe - that's just how deckbuilding works. You can avoid confirmation bias in this process by...well...avoiding confirmation bias.

[Marungo]

Maybe you have your decks turned around, or perhaps I'm just missing sarcasm, but big red is a mono-red chalice stompy list. I can't imagine Rite of Flame helping.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

After reading your report again I noticed you bring in canonist vs Miracles iatee. Has that been particularly good? Is it just to shut off a string of cantrips? Also you’ve played 1 relic-warder for a long time. Other than the obvious stuff (blade decks, sneak/omni, the mirror) when have you found it to be good that you always play one?

[colo]

I've also been playing a singleton Leonin Relic-Warder for many moons now, and I guess its effectiveness very much depends on your local metagame. Pre-board, it's a very potent tutor target when an "unexpected" permanent threatens to make you lose the game. Prime target in that regard is Sylvan Library for me, but snagging away a Molten Vortex or even Sulfuric Vortex at the right moment also wins games. I also like the way it hates on Chalice of the Void (at one mana less than Flickerwisp) and Mox Diamond et al. It also provides really great utility in the mirror, where it works as a one-sided Phyrexian Revoker for equipment and Aether Vials.

Granted my evaluation of its value might be skewed, because I've been on the very lucky side of it turning up in my hand far too many times. It's really just priceless to reveal it from a Show and Tell, and neuter Omniscience on the spot. Even if all else fails, it's a 2-toughness body for CMC 2, which isn't completely useless even without a decent target for its ETB trigger.

[DarthVicious]

This sounds closer to 5c humans than a true D&T list (still a good deck, just a different one).
As for Hokori, I've been running it online with some great success. I think it helps shore up the matchups with mana hungry decks like Grixis Control or Czech Pile.Plus it makes lands players cry deeply. Didn't think of adding Sword of Feast and Famine, but seems legit (I had just been abusing Karaks, went up to four copies).

It's still very much D&T, just with a bit of 'flavor'


4 Flickerwisp
3 Mother of Runes
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Serra Avenger
3 Sanctum Prelate
2 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Mangara of Corondor
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Daxos of Meletis

4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Necropouncer

8 Plains
4 Karakas
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland


2 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
2 Harsh Mentor
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Meddling Mage
2 Cloudchaser Kestrel
1 Hokori, Dust Drinker
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Sword of Feast and Famine


I love the main for the most part, but there are two obvious cards I'm still testing. So far Necropouncer is wicked. It's a lot more subtle to see, but you're only getting a 3/1 the turn you drop it. Beyond that, it's the P/T bump and haste you want. I won a few games off the surprise factor of vialing in something, suiting it up, and swinging right then. Haste is a nice effect to have when you need to put pressure on.

Daxos has been cool so far, but I usually forget that I can cast the crap he exiles. If he pulls your opponent's removal, or Kommand, or a dude, they're in for a rough ride. Ever cast a Ponder off a Wasteland? That was cool too. I nicknamed him Yasuo for those of you familiar with League of Legends.

Harsh Mentor is a mean little dude. He's really good in the mirror, or vs anything that relies on Deathrite or fetches. Possibly decent vs Elves also, although most of their mana dorks are unaffected and that's really where the issue with that matchup lies.

Kambal can use the same justifications as Canonist for the most part.

Meddling Mage is another one I've had my eye on for years and always wanted to play. If there ever was a deck it belongs in, it feels like it's this deck. Naming creatures with it seems good, considering I have Prelates for everything else. Being able to prevent ridiculous bullshit (True Name, Leovold, Kommand, Emrakul, etc) before it becomes an issue seems very good.

Kestrel I initially included to hedge some bets against DoN and Eldrazi.dec. Blowing up the former, and giving the latter a color to enable Mom seems useful. It turns out to also be yet another card to bump up the Show and Tell matchup, not that we need much help there. While also blowing up crap like Sylvan Library, Deed, Leylines, and whatever else is annoying. Plus fringe uses for detaching equips from pro-white dudes, consolidating the colors of opponent's creatures for Mom, machine gunning down an opponent's x/1 dorks with DoN in play, etc.

If only there was another little monowhite/human dork that hated on graveyards... Or blew up artifacts... OH Relic-Warder... Thanks iatee, completely forgot about that guy. Seems better than the 4th Prelate.

[iatee]

After reading your report again I noticed you bring in canonist vs Miracles iatee. Has that been particularly good? Is it just to shut off a string of cantrips? Also you’ve played 1 relic-warder for a long time. Other than the obvious stuff (blade decks, sneak/omni, the mirror) when have you found it to be good that you always play one?

Ethersworn Canonist has always been fine against Miracles since it shuts off Snapcaster - before Top's banning I would bring it in when I didn't have enough strong anti-Miracles cards to bring in. That was partly why I brought it in in the games I did - but also I think it's gotten better now for two reasons:
- They've replaced Top with more cantrips, so they don't play draw-go as much and have to cast a ton of cantrips just to find action
- Vs. Mentor specifically, Canonist didn't stop you from dying to double-Top, but now it stops them from going crazy.

Relic-Warder is indeed a fixed card in my sideboard, and it's been so consistently good for me over the time that I'm surprised he isn't considered a fixed spot in the DnT 75. Using one sideboard spot to ensure that you have a tutorable, Aether-Vialable disenchant always seems worth it.

Outside of the obvious Stoneblade/SnT decks and the obvious enchantment/artifact based decks (Enchantress, Aluren, MUD, Painter) there's a pretty wide set of matches where he can usually provide some sort of disruption. vs Reanimator and Storm, you can sometimes pick off an early Lotus Petal and if you're lucky you can get a high-value target like Dread of Night, Animate Dead, LED, etc. It might not always have a target vs those guys, but it's cheap and it's disruption, so you play it. Vs. Eldrazi you can generally pick off a Chalice, and sometimes you'll get a Jitte. Vs. those Big Red decks there is no shortage of targets - it's mana disruption, it eats Chalices, it eats Bridges. Vs. Lands he's similar to Revoker - Mox Diamond or Molten Vortex - but if they do Vortex him, the trigger stack ensures that it's gone forever.

There are some downsides to the card, he's a WW-not human but you often need him out early, which means the number of games I've had to put a Cavern on Cleric is definitely >0. And then there's the fact that they can get their stuff back, which is not the case with a Disenchant or Council's Judgment. But those cards aren't tutorable, don't attack for 2, and don't get to come into play for 0 mana via Aether Vial. I hope they print a better Relic-Warder one day, a pushed Disenchant human would be really nice. But until then I think he's the best option we have.

[grayryker]

It's still very much D&T, just with a bit of 'flavor'


4 Flickerwisp
3 Mother of Runes
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Serra Avenger
3 Sanctum Prelate
2 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Mangara of Corondor
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Daxos of Meletis

4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Necropouncer

8 Plains
4 Karakas
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland


2 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
2 Harsh Mentor
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Meddling Mage
2 Cloudchaser Kestrel
1 Hokori, Dust Drinker
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Sword of Feast and Famine


I love the main for the most part, but there are two obvious cards I'm still testing. So far Necropouncer is wicked. It's a lot more subtle to see, but you're only getting a 3/1 the turn you drop it. Beyond that, it's the P/T bump and haste you want. I won a few games off the surprise factor of vialing in something, suiting it up, and swinging right then. Haste is a nice effect to have when you need to put pressure on.

Daxos has been cool so far, but I usually forget that I can cast the crap he exiles. If he pulls your opponent's removal, or Kommand, or a dude, they're in for a rough ride. Ever cast a Ponder off a Wasteland? That was cool too. I nicknamed him Yasuo for those of you familiar with League of Legends.

Harsh Mentor is a mean little dude. He's really good in the mirror, or vs anything that relies on Deathrite or fetches. Possibly decent vs Elves also, although most of their mana dorks are unaffected and that's really where the issue with that matchup lies.

Kambal can use the same justifications as Canonist for the most part.

Meddling Mage is another one I've had my eye on for years and always wanted to play. If there ever was a deck it belongs in, it feels like it's this deck. Naming creatures with it seems good, considering I have Prelates for everything else. Being able to prevent ridiculous bullshit (True Name, Leovold, Kommand, Emrakul, etc) before it becomes an issue seems very good.

Kestrel I initially included to hedge some bets against DoN and Eldrazi.dec. Blowing up the former, and giving the latter a color to enable Mom seems useful. It turns out to also be yet another card to bump up the Show and Tell matchup, not that we need much help there. While also blowing up crap like Sylvan Library, Deed, Leylines, and whatever else is annoying. Plus fringe uses for detaching equips from pro-white dudes, consolidating the colors of opponent's creatures for Mom, machine gunning down an opponent's x/1 dorks with DoN in play, etc.

If only there was another little monowhite/human dork that hated on graveyards... Or blew up artifacts... OH Relic-Warder... Thanks iatee, completely forgot about that guy. Seems better than the 4th Prelate.


Necropouncer is way too expensive to play. In fact, I wouldn't play it even if it was 3 cmc. This deck already has a hard time casting Batterskull. Playing Thalia + Wasteland means you're going down on mana pretty often. There's also the fact that without blue cantrips, it's within variance to be stuck on 2-3 lands for a long time.

I also test a human build and of those cards you mentioned, Daxos is really interesting and I never considered it before. Thanks for the idea!

I've tested Kambal and Harsh Mentor and they were awful in a diverse range of match-ups. They're too situational and require fairly specific scenarios to be effective. I consider Meddling Mage to be a sideboard card. But I just never found the room for it.

Dark Confidant is easily one of the best reasons to go a 4 Cavern of Souls build. It's a must kill threat. Many of the games I win against Czech Pile is when Confidant resolves and they either don't have removal or got locked down by 4 Mother of Runes + 4 Chalice of the Void. Bob helps eliminate aspects of variance in the deck by ensuring you hit your land drops but also have plenty of threats. What is great about Bob is that he is decent in both the fair and unfair match-ups.

I have mixed feelings about Wasteland and Port. I definitely don't believe 4 Port is necessary when it's 90% a late game card and usually not necessary in multiples. 8 colorless lands ruin a lot of good keepable hands. If you play 4 Cavern of Souls, you have even more reason to cut some 1-2 Ports because it makes Wasteland quite good against you. Sometimes we just have to appreciate the simple basic Plains.

[DarthVicious]

Necropouncer is way too expensive to play. In fact, I wouldn't play it even if it was 3 cmc. This deck already has a hard time casting Batterskull. Playing Thalia + Wasteland means you're going down on mana pretty often. There's also the fact that without blue cantrips, it's within variance to be stuck on 2-3 lands for a long time.

I also test a human build and of those cards you mentioned, Daxos is really interesting and I never considered it before. Thanks for the idea!

I've tested Kambal and Harsh Mentor and they were awful in a diverse range of match-ups. They're too situational and require fairly specific scenarios to be effective. I consider Meddling Mage to be a sideboard card. But I just never found the room for it.

Dark Confidant is easily one of the best reasons to go a 4 Cavern of Souls build. It's a must kill threat. Many of the games I win against Czech Pile is when Confidant resolves and they either don't have removal or got locked down by 4 Mother of Runes + 4 Chalice of the Void. Bob helps eliminate aspects of variance in the deck by ensuring you hit your land drops but also have plenty of threats. What is great about Bob is that he is decent in both the fair and unfair match-ups.

I have mixed feelings about Wasteland and Port. I definitely don't believe 4 Port is necessary when it's 90% a late game card and usually not necessary in multiples. 8 colorless lands ruin a lot of good keepable hands. If you play 4 Cavern of Souls, you have even more reason to cut some 1-2 Ports because it makes Wasteland quite good against you. Sometimes we just have to appreciate the simple basic Plains.

Necropouncer and Batterskull usually only cost me :1::w: to get into play... :laugh:

I do have 2 Confidants sitting around, and I do like that 'Bob from Accounting' idea. Maybe I'll shuffle some stuff around to fit him in the main. You'll have some fun with Daxos too ;)

I've played against Mentor with this deck, and just one of them in play deals a lot of damage. Either my opponents play around him and don't use their abilities (which leads to me winning) or they take a boatload of damage over the long run ignoring him (which leads to me winning... usually). Just like so many other cards in this deck, he's another must-answer creature if they're built around using abilities. Like we are with D&T, like Deathrite, fetches, equipment, Lands, etc. Kambal I haven't tested a lot myself, but it seems like he'd be really good vs Storm and somewhere between decent and playable vs cantrip.dec. I use him in my Karlov EDH and I know what he can do if he's ignored, if he's not ignored then one of our other must-answer dudes will beat their face in.

There are times when I can feel what you're mentioning about the manabase, sometimes basic plains is the best land on my side of the table, as weird as that sounds. But I have 4 Ports and I'm using them dammit. Wasteland is the one I want to see the least often, it's the easiest one for opponents to play around. Fetching basics does nothing to stop me from Porting them down. On top of that, after I Waste something, I'm down a land also. It's like the best use of it is to leave it untapped on your side of the field.

[grayryker]

Necropouncer and Batterskull usually only cost me :1::w: to get into play... :laugh:

I do have 2 Confidants sitting around, and I do like that 'Bob from Accounting' idea. Maybe I'll shuffle some stuff around to fit him in the main. You'll have some fun with Daxos too ;)

I've played against Mentor with this deck, and just one of them in play deals a lot of damage. Either my opponents play around him and don't use their abilities (which leads to me winning) or they take a boatload of damage over the long run ignoring him (which leads to me winning... usually). Just like so many other cards in this deck, he's another must-answer creature if they're built around using abilities. Like we are with D&T, like Deathrite, fetches, equipment, Lands, etc. Kambal I haven't tested a lot myself, but it seems like he'd be really good vs Storm and somewhere between decent and playable vs cantrip.dec. I use him in my Karlov EDH and I know what he can do if he's ignored, if he's not ignored then one of our other must-answer dudes will beat their face in.

There are times when I can feel what you're mentioning about the manabase, sometimes basic plains is the best land on my side of the table, as weird as that sounds. But I have 4 Ports and I'm using them dammit. Wasteland is the one I want to see the least often, it's the easiest one for opponents to play around. Fetching basics does nothing to stop me from Porting them down. On top of that, after I Waste something, I'm down a land also. It's like the best use of it is to leave it untapped on your side of the field.

My experience is good 3-color deck players don't try to play around Wasteland. One of the first few tips a 3-color Delver player receives is to simply fetch duals unless you know a Blood Moon is coming, because getting a basics + dual in play just means you're stuck with a basic after a Wasteland; conversely, fetching two duals will at least get you more colors. The only time this is bad is if your opponent has multiple Wastelands. But with Deathrite Shaman and cantrips, it's not that easy to mana screw a tri-color deck in Legacy (unfortunately). If Deathrite Shaman gets banned, this deck will receive such a big power boost as everything gets better: mana denial, more Swords to Plowshares for other creatures, pushing more damage, etc.

My problem with Mentor is it's irrelevant against a whole variety of combo and aggro decks. Death and Taxes isn't aggro enough to leverage the extra damage over turns, and this is assuming that they have something to activate because often they don't. if Mentor could leverage its damage to creatures for meaningful card advantage, it would be worth playing.

It's the same reason Kambal was terrible in testing: the life gain/loss doesn't translate to meaningful advantage consistently. Of course Kambal is good against Storm, but even there, it's a 3-mana card that takes up spot for things like Ethersworn Canonist and Sanctum Prelate (arguably better options and more versatile). Kambal is not universally relevant to play in the main and not powerful enough in the side.

I had the opportunity to put Daxos into play today but unfortunately, I already locked the game out with other creatures. I'm 95% sure he isn't worth playing but I want to at least have some fun with him.

[grayryker]

Sorcerous Spyglass has been superb in testing. There were games where I played 1 in main and games where I just played 1 in the side. Both times, it saved me the game. Being able to see your opponent's hand so that you can proactively lock a key piece rather than reacting to it with Revoker is a big deal. I think those who play traditional DnT will find this card is worth playing because it can not only lock down mana better than Port a good majority of the time but also have other valuable functions.

[FeX]

are the top 8 decklists of EE going to be released on mtgtop8, mtgdecks etc.? i cant find them. and since it was a major event i would guess so.

[filln]

are the top 8 decklists of EE going to be released on mtgtop8, mtgdecks etc.? i cant find them. and since it was a major event i would guess so.

Scroll down past Vintage and you'll see Legacy decklists: http://eemagic.com/allDecks.php

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Sorcerous Spyglass has been superb in testing. There were games where I played 1 in main and games where I just played 1 in the side. Both times, it saved me the game. Being able to see your opponent's hand so that you can proactively lock a key piece rather than reacting to it with Revoker is a big deal. I think those who play traditional DnT will find this card is worth playing because it can not only lock down mana better than Port a good majority of the time but also have other valuable functions.How does it lock down mana better than Port, exactly? It literally only hits fetchlands.

I agree it's a fantastic card, I don't agree that it locks down mana. The scenario of naming their fetch to "deny mana" is, in my opinion, a fluke, even if occasionally it works. Lands are by far the most common card in literally all but 2 decks IN THE GAME. The percentage to draw one not named by spyglass is high.

I don't think I will use it in DnT. Right now I think Revoker is still better main and needle side. Revoker can name LED/Petal, and needle is faster, and in game 2 I don't think the extra info is worth the extra mana in games past the first one.

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[Nielsie]

Sorcerous Spyglass has been superb in testing. There were games where I played 1 in main and games where I just played 1 in the side. Both times, it saved me the game. Being able to see your opponent's hand so that you can proactively lock a key piece rather than reacting to it with Revoker is a big deal. I think those who play traditional DnT will find this card is worth playing because it can not only lock down mana better than Port a good majority of the time but also have other valuable functions.
Sorcerous Spyglass is a Revoker/Needle for noobs. You should know the metagame and you should be able to deduce depending on the gamestate what card would screw you over the most. Revoker is giving us a body which DnT is build around and Revoker being able to needle mana abilities is also huge when playing against something like ANT or TES. In all other cases I would prefer needle because it's a turn one play, when I bring in needle I probably already know what card to name anyway.

[grayryker]

How does it lock down mana better than Port, exactly? It literally only hits fetchlands.

I agree it's a fantastic card, I don't agree that it locks down mana. The scenario of naming their fetch to "deny mana" is, in my opinion, a fluke, even if occasionally it works. Lands are by far the most common card in literally all but 2 decks IN THE GAME. The percentage to draw one not named by spyglass is high.

I don't think I will use it in DnT. Right now I think Revoker is still better main and needle side. Revoker can name LED/Petal, and needle is faster, and in game 2 I don't think the extra info is worth the extra mana in games past the first one.

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Hilarious. I use the word "can" and you go all crazy on me. Fetchlands are the most common type of lands in the game, so it's not a rare fluke that you name a fetchland off a spyglass when your grixis delver opponent is running 8 fetchlands. How often do you port mana on turn 2? Spyglass comes down on turn 2. But anyways, the main point is that it 'can' be a mana denial tool.




Sorcerous Spyglass is a Revoker/Needle for noobs. You should know the metagame and you should be able to deduce depending on the gamestate what card would screw you over the most. Revoker is giving us a body which DnT is build around and Revoker being able to needle mana abilities is also huge when playing against something like ANT or TES. In all other cases I would prefer needle because it's a turn one play, when I bring in needle I probably already know what card to name anyway.

Knowing the metagame doesn't equate to knowing what cards your opponents have, genius. Knowing what your opponent has to sequence your plays, potentially drop them down 1-2 mana, and not being forced to blind name a card they may not even have (because 90% of the time, the opponent is playing multiple problematic cards) are the main reasons to play Spyglass. And note I'm not saying this card replaces Revoker, which mainly will stay in the deck because it serves as a creature in a vial deck. But the difference in their ability to denial is significant. The problem with Revoker is that it's a very reactive card. When you see a problematic permanent on the field, it's just more rational to the permanent you see instead of something potentially more dangerous hidden behind your opponent's hand. The information you get from Spyglass mitigates these problems and its lack of body is often better, rather than worse.

And yeah I could easily say "Spyglass is also huge when playing against something like Lands or Infect" but it's a terrible argument. A rational person knows the utility of each card. Again I repeat: this card isn't going to replace Revoker; what it has is legitimate strengths in being played in the main or side over other cards.

[zakzes]

[/QUOTE]The problem with Revoker is that it's a very reactive card. When you see a problematic permanent on the field, it's just more rational to the permanent you see instead of something potentially more dangerous hidden behind your opponent's hand. The information you get from Spyglass mitigates these problems and its lack of body is often better, rather than worse. [/QUOTE]
I wouldn't call revoker a reactive card at all. If you know the match up, you should know what to name. I am very seldom caught off-guard with a revoker, unless we are playing against a deck with multiple good targets, but knowing where you are in the game there is usually an obvious target.


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[Secretly.A.Bee]

Hilarious. I use the word "can" and you go all crazy on me. Fetchlands are the most common type of lands in the game, so it's not a rare fluke that you name a fetchland off a spyglass when your grixis delver opponent is running 8 fetchlands. How often do you port mana on turn 2? Spyglass comes down on turn 2. But anyways, the main point is that it 'can' be a mana denial tool.



"Can" suggests "should" in the context of theory crafting. Porting on turn 2 is different; it doesn't waste a card, but yes, porting a land on turn 2 happens close to 15% of my games. Its worth noting that my opponent can't "draw out" of a port's tempo-grab, but they can a Spyglass, and if they do, Brainstorming away the named fetch becomes an awesome play, effectively time walking you.

Before, playing two of each blue fetch was a good idea (and a non-0 number of Grixis and 4c control players already do this). Now, if this Spyglass catches on, it will move file folders from "good idea" to "mandatory counter-strategy." Having said this, back in Saviors of Kamigawa, people suggested this same strategy with Needle. As it happened, though, players quickly noticed it to be a 1-2 of in the board, because even though it's uses across legacy are broad, only occasionally is it a necessary element to not losing. It's a surgical instrument specifically for the stymying of a game-winning (e.g. Griselbrand) or game-stopping effect (e.g. DRS against Reanimator). What it is not is a mana-denying element of an aggro-control list. It never panned out as a good enough strategy to do so, and now Spyglass will be no different.

I do think you can use Spyglass better than actual DnT players, since you are on the stompy side of it.

/My thoughts

Crazy isn't the worst thing I've ever been called on these boards, so I guess I'll take it...


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[grayryker]

"Can" suggests "should" in the context of theory crafting. Porting on turn 2 is different; it doesn't waste a card, but yes, porting a land on turn 2 happens close to 15% of my games. Its worth noting that my opponent can't "draw out" of a port's tempo-grab, but they can a Spyglass, and if they do, Brainstorming away the named fetch becomes an awesome play, effectively time walking you.

Before, playing two of each blue fetch was a good idea (and a non-0 number of Grixis and 4c control players already do this). Now, if this Spyglass catches on, it will move file folders from "good idea" to "mandatory counter-strategy." Having said this, back in Saviors of Kamigawa, people suggested this same strategy with Needle. As it happened, though, players quickly noticed it to be a 1-2 of in the board, because even though it's uses across legacy are broad, only occasionally is it a necessary element to not losing. It's a surgical instrument specifically for the stymying of a game-winning (e.g. Griselbrand) or game-stopping effect (e.g. DRS against Reanimator). What it is not is a mana-denying element of an aggro-control list. It never panned out as a good enough strategy to do so, and now Spyglass will be no different.

I do think you can use Spyglass better than actual DnT players, since you are on the stompy side of it.

/My thoughts

Crazy isn't the worst thing I've ever been called on these boards, so I guess I'll take it...


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What kind of nonsense logic are you using? How is can = should in any context? One is optional and the other is suggesting imperative. Learn the difference. I can also name situations where glass mana denials better than port but not only is that irrelevant to the discussion it is pointless to cherry pick one specific scenario and say "aha card x is better than card y".

Again, I don't know why you are bringing up pithing needle. Naming a fetchland with needle is 90% a bad play, especially if you are blindly naming something that could be in hand. Stop it with these terrible comparisons please. What a bunch of people talked about in standard numbers of years back has no relevance in evaluating needle as a mana denial tool (i.e it shouldn't be). Mana denial is not why people play needle in the 75 and yet you are making this strange comparison.

[grayryker]

The problem with Revoker is that it's a very reactive card. When you see a problematic permanent on the field, it's just more rational to the permanent you see instead of something potentially more dangerous hidden behind your opponent's hand. The information you get from Spyglass mitigates these problems and its lack of body is often better, rather than worse. [/QUOTE]
I wouldn't call revoker a reactive card at all. If you know the match up, you should know what to name. I am very seldom caught off-guard with a revoker, unless we are playing against a deck with multiple good targets, but knowing where you are in the game there is usually an obvious target.


Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]

Again, depends on the match and the pacing. If I'm playing against red sneak attack or old miracles, it's obvious what to name at any stage of the game. Play against any artifact based deck and elves and this is where you don't have a single obvious target.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

What kind of nonsense logic are you using? How is can = should in any context? One is optional and the other is suggesting imperative. Learn the difference. I can also name situations where glass mana denials better than port but not only is that irrelevant to the discussion it is pointless to cherry pick one specific scenario and say "aha card x is better than card y".

Again, I don't know why you are bringing up pithing needle. Naming a fetchland with needle is 90% a bad play, especially if you are blindly naming something that could be in hand. Stop it with these terrible comparisons please. What a bunch of people talked about in standard numbers of years back has no relevance in evaluating needle as a mana denial tool (i.e it shouldn't be). Mana denial is not why people play needle in the 75 and yet you are making this strange comparison.

You aren't hearing me. I gave you the context, and even stated as much. I'm trying to be polite and give you my point of view. I've done so, but you are being intentionally dense, not giving thought to my words. This is apparent in your response. I never made a reference to standard, in fact there were no fetches in CoK block standard. I mention this as an example to my statement of "You aren't hearing me."

90% bad play? Let's say one player Gitaxian Probes paying 2 life and drawing a card after seeing they only have one land that is a fetch, it's way worse to name the fetch with Pithing Needle in this scenario than it would be if you instead had the ability to turn 1 Spyglass? There's no guarantee that you see something to even name in either scenario. At that point the scenario with Pithing needle is probably the better one to be in as at least you don't have to cast it, and maybe there is something better to cast now that you have more information anyway.

Naming a fetch in this format is short-sighted and mostly irrelevant in my opinion, corner-cases notwithstanding, and we don't play things in this format because niche uses. It's just not a viable or sustainable strategy for winning.
I frankly don't care if you listen or give thought to what I'm saying, but this has happened often since you started posting, and I just can't find a reason to have more interaction with you. I wish you the best.



Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

[Moctzal]

You aren't hearing me. I gave you the context, and even stated as much. I'm trying to be polite and give you my point of view. I've done so, but you are being intentionally dense, not giving thought to my words. This is apparent in your response. I never made a reference to standard, in fact there were no fetches in CoK block standard. I mention this as an example to my statement of "You aren't hearing me."

90% bad play? Let's say one player Gitaxian Probes paying 2 life and drawing a card after seeing they only have one land that is a fetch, it's way worse to name the fetch with Pithing Needle in this scenario than it would be if you instead had the ability to turn 1 Spyglass? There's no guarantee that you see something to even name in either scenario. At that point the scenario with Pithing needle is probably the better one to be in as at least you don't have to cast it, and maybe there is something better to cast now that you have more information anyway.

Naming a fetch in this format is short-sighted and mostly irrelevant in my opinion, corner-cases notwithstanding, and we don't play things in this format because niche uses. It's just not a viable or sustainable strategy for winning.
I frankly don't care if you listen or give thought to what I'm saying, but this has happened often since you started posting, and I just can't find a reason to have more interaction with you. I wish you the best.



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I agree here. Revoker is also a 2/1 for 2 that can come off of Vial in response to a cast permanent that you want to shut off. Being able to shut off mana rocks and mana dorks is a bonus as well. A 2/1 is generally more proactive than a 2 mana artifact in my books. I don't really view D&T as a prison deck. I view it as disruptive aggro. The decks goal is keep your opponent off pace, not lock them out. The games where D&T lock opponents out are generally of the free win variety. In order to swing games in the margin to your favor, pilots need to be using cards like Thalia, Revoker, Rishadan Port etc very effectively. You're going to slightly edge opponents out of games just as often as you lock them out.

I don't think Spyglass is playable unless a deck is running Sol lands and Chalice of the void. I'd be loathe to run it in any deck with Thalia in it.

I bring in Pithing Needle to name fetches in exactly one matchup: Storm, because my other cards coming out are an even more anemic.

Also, grayryker, I'm going to suggest that cool your jets. You've been making some pretty aggressively toned posts recently, veering close to personal attacks, and a lot of what you've been saying in here has been detracting from the quality of conversation that usually goes on here.

[grayryker]

You aren't hearing me. I gave you the context, and even stated as much. I'm trying to be polite and give you my point of view. I've done so, but you are being intentionally dense, not giving thought to my words. This is apparent in your response. I never made a reference to standard, in fact there were no fetches in CoK block standard. I mention this as an example to my statement of "You aren't hearing me." You have the nerve to call me intentionally dense and yet you keep pretending like my position is "use spyglass mainly as a mana denial tool"

90% bad play? Let's say one player Gitaxian Probes paying 2 life and drawing a card after seeing they only have one land that is a fetch, it's way worse to name the fetch with Pithing Needle in this scenario than it would be if you instead had the ability to turn 1 Spyglass? There's no guarantee that you see something to even name in either scenario. At that point the scenario with Pithing needle is probably the better one to be in as at least you don't have to cast it, and maybe there is something better to cast now that you have more information anyway.

Naming a fetch in this format is short-sighted and mostly irrelevant in my opinion, corner-cases notwithstanding, and we don't play things in this format because niche uses. It's just not a viable or sustainable strategy for winning.
I frankly don't care if you listen or give thought to what I'm saying, but this has happened often since you started posting, and I just can't find a reason to have more interaction with you. I wish you the best.



Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

You are the one not comprehending what I am saying. I refetenced standard because you brought up the "oh people realized this was how needle should be played". Again, what does that have to do with the strategy now? Both glass and needle are mainly going to be sideboard cards but what makes glass special is it actually has qualities that make it potentially playable in the main (for similar reason revoker is playable in main).

Again, "90%" of the time. You interpret this as a 100%. If you side in needle against a deck and you are using it on a fetchland, then you are doing it wrong. If your opponent misses their land drop, you know their hand, they scry card to bottom, etc. by all means such scenarios will give needle that 10% scenario. Again, you take one part of my argument and distort it to the max. You did the same by taking "can mana denial better than port" and spouting some weird rant about a position I am not taking.


You do realize you can name a card that you did not see even off of glass? It works exactly like needle but with hand information. I can't understand your 2nd paragraph and it may be because you did not read this card properly. It doesn't make sense that needle 'would have been better' in any of the scenarios you listed.

And again, what part of sorcerous spyglass is niche? You side it in the same way you would side in a needle. Of course, needle will sometimes be better but all I ever did was say "look here is a card we shouldn't overlook". I never said "replace rishadan ports with spyglass" which is just you putting words in my mouth and attacking strawmen. Again, if you think I am wrong about this feel free to point it out. I will quote you word for word. Btw I have a straightforward way of talking so don't take it personally if I am not using emoji or sugarcoating my words.

[grayryker]

I agree here. Revoker is also a 2/1 for 2 that can come off of Vial in response to a cast permanent that you want to shut off. Being able to shut off mana rocks and mana dorks is a bonus as well. A 2/1 is generally more proactive than a 2 mana artifact in my books. I don't really view D&T as a prison deck. I view it as disruptive aggro. The decks goal is keep your opponent off pace, not lock them out. The games where D&T lock opponents out are generally of the free win variety. In order to swing games in the margin to your favor, pilots need to be using cards like Thalia, Revoker, Rishadan Port etc very effectively. You're going to slightly edge opponents out of games just as often as you lock them out.

I don't think Spyglass is playable unless a deck is running Sol lands and Chalice of the void. I'd be loathe to run it in any deck with Thalia in it.

I bring in Pithing Needle to name fetches in exactly one matchup: Storm, because my other cards coming out are an even more anemic.

Also, grayryker, I'm going to suggest that cool your jets. You've been making some pretty aggressively toned posts recently, veering close to personal attacks, and a lot of what you've been saying in here has been detracting from the quality of conversation that usually goes on here.

Revoker isn't competing in the same slots as spyglass. I am not angry at all. I'm being blunt people like you are distorting everything I am saying. I said "hey this is a card you may want to try out" instead of saying "this is an absolute staple". Again, you talking about bringing needle against storm (as if this was what I am proposing) is pretty laughable.

Detracting from the quality of conversation? That is a bit ironic. Few people here ever talk about the weaknesses of the deck, any of the statistics, innovations, etc.

[zakzes]

Against elves, 90% of the time the obvious target (aside from just scooping and getting lunch) is to name symbiote. By artifact based decks I assume you mean MUD, in which case the choices are pretty obvious, they only have so many targets to hit and the way they play can be pretty telling as to where they're headed. If you are playing revoker reactively, you are probably behind. Most decks have 1-2 potential revoker targets. Spyglass's information is certainly fantastic, but it doesn't answer any questions we currently have. Where does it shore up our bad match ups/where do we really want it? Two mana is a huge investment that just sits there to not really do anything more than pithing needle. EDIT: quoting on mobile is acting weird.

[grayryker]

I wouldn't call revoker a reactive card at all. If you know the match up, you should know what to name. I am very seldom caught off-guard with a revoker, unless we are playing against a deck with multiple good targets, but knowing where you are in the game there is usually an obvious target.



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Again, depends on the match and the pacing. If I'm playing against red sneak attack or old miracles, it's obvious what to name at any stage of the game. Play against any artifact based deck and elves and this is where you don't have a single obvious target.[/QUOTE]Against elves, 90% of the time the obvious target (aside from just scooping and getting lunch) is to name symbiote. If you are playing revoker reactively, you are probably behind. Most decks have 1-2 potential revoker targets. Spyglass's information is certainly fantastic, but it doesn't answer any questions we currently have. Where does it shore up our bad match ups/where do we really want it? Two mana is a huge investment that just sits there to not really do anything more than pithing needle.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]

Well this is the difference isn't it? Revoker fits the main better because it is a creature. When you need extra denial for lands, a good case can be made for glass over needle. Like I said, this is where revoker is a reactive card. I can blind name thespian stage with needle and get blown out by molten vortex, which I could have named with glass given the hand information. Maybe I am tempted to needle the deathrite shaman on board when I should really be targeting the 1 of pernicious deed in hand. Again, the hand information shouldn't be underestimated. Not being a body susceptible to removals and boardwipes is actually often a good thing.

Note I am not promoting you bring this card in every match-up where it will have a target, for the same reasons I wouldn't be playing revoker agaisnt Czech Pile just to name walkers and deathrite.

[Finn]

I don't think Spyglass is playable unless a deck is running Sol lands and Chalice of the void. I'd be loathe to run it in any deck with Thalia in it. I sure hope everyone uses this assumption as a starting point on this topic. In a format with Brainstorm, the value of looking before calling is diminished to begin with, but considering how we use Pithing Needle (typically as an imperfect emergency measure) this just seems like an amateur card choice. Tapping two mana on your own main phase for defense is for chumps.

That said, I have been wanting Gitaxian Probes in the deck since forever. I played with Glasses of Urza --yep-- for fun a few years ago, and the information was routinely card advantage. That is, if you start with -1 (the cost of the specs), you make your way to at least +1 by the time the game is in your corner. I stopped using the card. It certainly feels win-more because it does its best work in the long games we are supposed to win anyway. But it felt powerful as an early play especially when you use it just after a Brainstorm <--psychological, and I never got to the point of analyzing it properly. It is a much better card than it once was, and this deck sorely needs the intel.

I would not swat away Spyglass so easily.

[Moctzal]

Revoker isn't competing in the same slots as spyglass. I am not angry at all. I'm being blunt people like you are distorting everything I am saying. I said "hey this is a card you may want to try out" instead of saying "this is an absolute staple". Again, you talking about bringing needle against storm (as if this was what I am proposing) is pretty laughable.

Detracting from the quality of conversation? That is a bit ironic. Few people here ever talk about the weaknesses of the deck, any of the statistics, innovations, etc.

I didn't say that you were angry, but it's interesting that you jumped to that.

Bringing in Needle vs Storm is a common thing to do, as it's not about how good Needle is objectively, it's about how good Needle is compared to other cards in the maindeck. It's a turn 1 play against a deck that is generally faster than D&T is.

You are not simply being blunt, you're combative, and insulting on a regular basis. Those are not the same things. You do not add anything of value to this thread in the majority of your posts. You've earned a second ignore now from me now in addition to another regular in this thread. I'd say that I'd hope that it causes some introspection on your part, but you're likely to just blame others like you did in the quoted post.

Innovation doesn't matter unless it produces results. You can claim you're innovating all you want to, but until you've done it enough to put up good results at tournaments that matter, you have no data to back up anything that you claim. What you're doing is theory crafting, and frankly from what I've seen, poor theorycrafting at that.

People talk about the weaknesses of the deck all the time. See the discussion regarding the red splash, which is largely an effort to shore up a couple of the deck's worst matchups.

You're acting like a small, irrational person. Every post you make responding to others in this thread proves it.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I sure hope everyone uses this assumption as a starting point on this topic. In a format with Brainstorm, the value of looking before calling is diminished to begin with, but considering how we use Pithing Needle (typically as an imperfect emergency measure) this just seems like an amateur card choice. Tapping two mana on your own main phase for defense is for chumps.

That said, I have been wanting Gitaxian Probes in the deck since forever. I played with Glasses of Urza --yep-- for fun a few years ago, and the information was routinely card advantage. That is, if you start with -1 (the cost of the specs), you make your way to at least +1 by the time the game is in your corner. I stopped using the card. It certainly feels win-more because it does its best work in the long games we are supposed to win anyway. But it felt powerful as an early play especially when you use it just after a Brainstorm <--psychological, and I never got to the point of analyzing it properly. It is a much better card than it once was, and this deck sorely needs the intel.

I would not swat away Spyglass so easily.

Finn, can you clarify what your tl;dr is? It seems to begin at one end of the argument and ends at the other. I respect your opinion, I've been reading this thread long before I played, and consider you it's oldest advocate and champion. I just can't place your thoughts all in one category or the other.

I don't think that anyone dismissed the card, only that some believe it to be slightly worse than both options we currently use main and side. I concur that revoker's non-white body and ability to name mana sources of LED/Petal are why I don't think that I will swap the two main, and needle's speed as well as already knowing the relevant information by game 2 makes it less strong out of the sideboard comparatively.

Thanks for your time.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

[Finn]

I'm definitely the oldest...and I did waffle. Sorry about that.

I suppose I am lamenting that this card is not a creature, ultimately. I am pretty sure that I would not get behind the Spyglass because we have that ability mostly covered on a creature's body. And is anyone even playing four Revokers anymore? But there is a lot to be said for the ability to see your opponent's hand in this deck.

On a finer point, intel is a part of this deck that we really do not have any experience with. We have never had it to make comparisons about the relative value it brings. I am just pointing out that in my limited experiences with intel as a feature of the deck, it proved powerful - and gets better with better players. If grayryker says he has gotten some miles out of it, whatever his persona on the thread, it may be worth testing.

[DarthVicious]

*snip*
That said, I have been wanting Gitaxian Probes in the deck since forever. I played with Glasses of Urza --yep-- for fun a few years ago, and the information was routinely card advantage. *snip*

I've wanted to run that card for a long long time. Just having perfect information all the time is enough to make sure you don't make the wrong plays, with or without revoker/needle/etc. Like finding out your opponent is on burn so you can go get Jitte/Batterskull faster than you usually would. Granted, Probe would accomplish that too, but not repeatedly over the course of a game. It'd be good to know how many combo pieces your opponent has in hand already, if any. How many lands they have could influence whether to Port them early, or wait til later and develop your board. Finding out they're a creature deck would stop me from casting Thalia too early. Keeping an eye on what your opponent is up to at all times seems very very good.

Plus... those of us with a true black splash could run Cabal Therapy and completely wreck their hand every time.

Big problems with it is not affecting the board state, and competing with other 1 drops. I suppose it doesn't need to be dropped early, but it really wants to.

Also, something to be said about Toolcraft Exemplar...

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I'm definitely the oldest...and I did waffle. Sorry about that.

I suppose I am lamenting that this card is not a creature, ultimately. I am pretty sure that I would not get behind the Spyglass because we have that ability mostly covered on a creature's body. And is anyone even playing four Revokers anymore? But there is a lot to be said for the ability to see your opponent's hand in this deck.

On a finer point, intel is a part of this deck that we really do not have any experience with. We have never had it to make comparisons about the relative value it brings. I am just pointing out that in my limited experiences with intel as a feature of the deck, it proved powerful - and gets better with better players. If grayryker says he has gotten some miles out of it, whatever his persona on the thread, it may be worth testing.

I think we all lament the lack of legs on spyglass. That would absolutely challenge my opinion of it's viability, and I would guess many more.

Intel is lacking, but with correct thinking, it can be accurately predicted an overwhelming amount of the time. I have zero room for something that *only* gets information, and that's why I am disappointed with Spyglass. It is a very good card and I think that there are certain styles of decks that will abuse the hell out of it. Is it this deck? I doubt it. Will I keep an open mind if someone makes relevant and meaningful results? Absolutely.

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[grayryker]

I didn't say that you were angry, but it's interesting that you jumped to that.

Bringing in Needle vs Storm is a common thing to do, as it's not about how good Needle is objectively, it's about how good Needle is compared to other cards in the maindeck. It's a turn 1 play against a deck that is generally faster than D&T is.

You are not simply being blunt, you're combative, and insulting on a regular basis. Those are not the same things. You do not add anything of value to this thread in the majority of your posts. You've earned a second ignore now from me now in addition to another regular in this thread. I'd say that I'd hope that it causes some introspection on your part, but you're likely to just blame others like you did in the quoted post.

Innovation doesn't matter unless it produces results. You can claim you're innovating all you want to, but until you've done it enough to put up good results at tournaments that matter, you have no data to back up anything that you claim. What you're doing is theory crafting, and frankly from what I've seen, poor theorycrafting at that.

People talk about the weaknesses of the deck all the time. See the discussion regarding the red splash, which is largely an effort to shore up a couple of the deck's worst matchups.

You're acting like a small, irrational person. Every post you make responding to others in this thread proves it.

I never said Needle should/ shouldn't be sided against Storm. I'm mocking you thinking this is what I'm proposing (i.e a pure mana denial tool) with Needle/ Glass. It's hilarious you then write a paragraph explaining what needle does against Storm. Again, evidence of poor reading comprehension.

I like how you interpreted what I said as "I'm the only person that does this" comment. Oh look another evidence of poor comprehension.

Some 'innovative' things have yet to be tested by a variety of people, hence it's still worth discussing. I guess according to your logic, pretty much anything new isn't worth discussing because it hasn't appeared in tournaments. Sound logic. Also, big tournament performances are hardly indicative of optimal builds/ cards. You'd be lucky to play a deck with a 60-70% win ratio and that's with a very good pilot and the right meta. Even if you had this high win ratio, the chances that you top 8 a tournament is still improbable. Legacy MTGO leagues are obviously a lot easier in this respect. There's always a difference between right vs wrong plays, optimal vs not-as-optimal card choices, regardless of the outcome. But I suspect none of this ever crosses your mind.

And I referred to 'data' as the statistics I posted earlier about DnT win ratio, as well as about the forum in general. Of course no one ever wants to talk about it, because it puts DnT in a bad light. I never discussed any data of my own variants so I don't know where you're going with this.

So yeah I'm the small, irrational person? I'm the one here saying "hey guys there's an interesting card worth looking into" and not distorting every sentence. If you think I'm bad at theorycrafting, point out specific examples without distorting my sentences. Instead of ignoring me (like an intellectual and emotional coward would) we can actually have a decent conversation.

[Marungo]

Yeah... so anyways guys just a quick question:
How are you boarding in the 4c Leovold matchup?

More importantly what cards are coming out? We all have different sideboards and theories as to what is good and what comes in, but what do you feel comes out in the matchup? I find myself reaching for some number of flickerwisps, revokers, and plows, but I’m curious as to what others are doing.

[Emurian]

Again, depends on the match and the pacing. If I'm playing against red sneak attack or old miracles, it's obvious what to name at any stage of the game. Play against any artifact based deck and elves and this is where you don't have a single obvious target.

Artifact - MUD: Priority:Kudolkan forgemaster > Metalworker > Ugin (then the lesss interesting ones)> Grim Monolith / Lightning Greaves (Note, our mud players over here don't use walking ballista for some rsn, which I would if I had the deck)

Elves: #1 Wirewood Symbiote
If: Boardstate: Quirion ranger / DRS / bayou - Quirion
If: Boardstate: Quirion ranger / Dryad arbor - Quirion
If: Boardstate: 1-2 Nettles, no engines - Heritage druid
If Boardstate: T1 Birchlore, T2 Nettle - Wirewood (Feels counter instinctive but its a setup for NO T2 w/cradle, if they dont pull that trigger its a sign of a glimpse chain setup

Granted, Elves are harder to predict as the player has multiple engines to get online, their all tutorable with GSZ. Biggest mistake I see is people naming heritage druid blind, Elves will get to their critical mass of mana. Its a lost battle trying to restrict their mana. And the Elves player is fine with it if you are trying to hamper his mana, as this gives him the time he needs to prepare a good glimpse.

So imo, there are good distinctive targets you can go for in those matches, I understand if your not a Elves player yourself and only play DnT that its unclear at first. Wirewood enables to much shenanigans. The main problem for a DnT player is not being able to connect with a jitte for as long as the wirewood is online. Wirewood also allow the card draw loop with visionary and more often then not are required to keep a glimpse going if the Elves player is starting to brickwall.

Quirion is better then DRS in generating mana for the deck, DRS is a glorified mana dork. The ''backup'' DRS tap, lose 2 life, bounce bayou, untap DRS, replay and do it again is a backup strat if there is a boardstall. An Elven player will just try to flood the board vs DnT in general with the sole exception being if there is a jitte with counters on the field.

I laugh my ass off every time some one puts down revoker and calls heritage druid first ^^.

Edit: I would like to add my thoughts on the discussion between Pithing needle vs the Spyglass.

The best argument I read so far goes along the lines: When I bring in Peedle game 2, I already know what I need to name.

I concur with this, thus the argument imo that spyglass lets you gain insight what you need to name beforehand comes forth out of the lack of knowledge of the DnT player not knowing what to name (I hope I don’t offend people with this statement, its not aimed at anyone)

So the main difference is gaining knowledge about your opponents hand. The main reason why decks would like to see their opponents hand in general (mainly combo) is to see if the way is clear to go off. With DnT, there is no way for you to strip away the hate card if its not an activated ability. (lets say dread of night as example) You know its coming, but theres nothing you can do about it. Now in some situations, the revealed information (removal) lets you make a play to sacrifice something less important (2nd copy of a card, or SFM over Thalia etc) in this regard, the spyglass added something that peedle is unable to do. (In some cases Prelate can stop it, but the card is rather slow, and you might play to defensive if you want to slam down Prelate and then follow up with whatever you have left) That said, those situations are somewhat rare. If I see my opponent having a hate card, well, I just got to bite the bullet and play through it, theres no reason to keep back 3 cards in hand due to 1 of them being effective vs all 3. (aside sweepers such as toxic deluge)

The thing that irks me most is that with DnT, the hardest correct play to make tends to be in turn 2. (Mainly Thalia or going SFM for equipment) I do not wish to add another card to that mix.

The main reason why I use peedles is versus lands (inkmoth / DD w/thespian combo) The spyglass additional information won’t change my mind in those specific matchups. Other matchups your targets tend to vary between 1-3, with one being the clear priority one to name.

So conclusion, I don’t think the added benefit of gaining information about what your opponent has in hand is worth the additional mana and the turn delay.

Also please keep in mind that these cards might also not be in your opener, if you peel off one of them later on, then chances are your opponents hand is 3-4 cards strong instead of 7. (Thus the added benefit diminishes in effect) Also, brainstorms invalidates most of the information gained. I just don’t see the use of the information if you do not have a (discard) follow up to make use of it.

Double edit: Also people try to keep this topic civil, the reason why I like this forum so much is because of the absence of drama. If you have a feud with someone, send him a personal message and open the dialogue that way if you have the balls for it. Bashing someone in the open in this thread is poor taste in my opinion.

[redtwister]

Is Popeye Stompy (https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/popeye-stompy/) a real thing or is this a bad joke?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Is Popeye Stompy (https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/popeye-stompy/) a real thing or is this a bad joke?Both.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

[mykatdied]

Is Popeye Stompy (https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/popeye-stompy/) a real thing or is this a bad joke?

"I won't say that no harm came out of it, as there were some speculators who went out to drive up the price of Rishadan Brigand. To you, I apologize. Maybe test your specs before buying next time? There were also some interesting Reddit and MTGTheSource threads about the “morality” of sharing deck lists. I'm in agreement with most people. If you want it private, then test in private.

Of course, all of this is going to come back to bite me as I lose to Popeye Stompy playing for Top 8 at my next event. KARRRRRRRRma is a b****."

[Colin]

Not to distract you all from the spyglass debate....

I just thought I'd check in on the previous discussion on Czech pile. The only matches I'm dropping to that deck are against the 3x hymn to tourach versions. Anecdotally, turn 2-3 hymn hitting my lands seems to be enough for them to pick up steam, and snap hymn late game can be rough forcing a play into deluge or discarding you threats/answers.

I'm 100% sold on SofLS in the board for Eternal Weekend. so much B/G/x and so many sweepers right now and we have so many new lock pieces/tutors to recur

[iatee]

SoLaS seems fine, though ultimately the biggest problem with Czech Pile is Kolaghan's Command, and that's a problem that isn't going to be solved w/ an artifact.

I don't think DnT is favored, even vs variants w/ fewer Hymns. It feels about even to me, probably a tad unfavored with stock DnT.

[Marungo]

SoLaS seems fine, though ultimately the biggest problem with Czech Pile is Kolaghan's Command, and that's a problem that isn't going to be solved w/ an artifact.

I don't think DnT is favored, even vs variants w/ fewer Hymns. It feels about even to me, probably a tad unfavored with stock DnT.

I agree with your analysis on SoLaS. I have never liked that card because it’s just another awful card vs their card that hoses us. Think it’s just not worthwhile.

[Colin]

SoLaS seems fine, though ultimately the biggest problem with Czech Pile is Kolaghan's Command, and that's a problem that isn't going to be solved w/ an artifact.

I don't think DnT is favored, even vs variants w/ fewer Hymns. It feels about even to me, probably a tad unfavored with stock DnT.

(Anecdotally again) i think an artifact might just be the thing? These games go long and ive found over and over again that you can attrition way better with equipment. kolaghans command is a 2 of? On occasion a snapcastet target? I'm not overly worried about that 2 of 2for1.

If they're shooting my sword they're not killing my vial, if they're killing my vial then my creature is getting suited up.

Maybe it's just win more.

I guess I'm just hoping for more people tested input

[iatee]

Well I don't know if it's win more as much as 'not always win'. I think you want to present threats that are naturally hard to answer with 1 for 1s - RiP, Gideon, Cataclysm, Fiendslayer Paladin and P/K are all things that they can't easily deal with. If they don't answer SoLaS you win, but they have more answers to that than they do to the rest of those cards. Also "kill all your creatures so you can never even equip SoLaS" is another answer to SoLaS.

[Bahra]

Mangara comeback time? Just 5-0'd in my first run with 1 (and 2 Recruiter of the Guard) and he was absolutely crucial in several of my games.

https://i.imgur.com/OxWSr1F.jpg

[iatee]

While I think Mangara is worse than he was during Miracles/Eldrazi era, I never bought the idea that he's stone-unplayable either, I'm mostly not playing one because I don't have room rather than because I think the card doesn't have value - having a copy around allows you to get out of a lot of weird situations. I think he's more of a sideboard card than a maindeck card these days, though.

[zakzes]

Mangara comeback time? Just 5-0'd in my first run with 1 (and 2 Recruiter of the Guard) and he was absolutely crucial in several of my games.

https://i.imgur.com/OxWSr1F.jpgWhat match up do you feel he was at his best in?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[Mannaus]

Bahra, if you feel like making a quick tournament reports of your 5-0 run, it would be of great value =D
And nice run

[sablandriel]

no sanctum prelate?

[Finn]

If you try, you will find that you can't really use Mangara out of the board. He is a generalist sort of answer that comes out in many games for more specific hate in games 2 and 3 if your board is correct for the event.

[iatee]

I mean, I've tried and I've found that I could. Council's Judgment is a generalist answer card too. Mangara doesn't hit TNN but it's tutorable + doesn't cost 4 mana with a Thalia in play + and it hits lands. The reason why he's not an amazing sideboard card at the moment is that decks that he's particularly good against (Miracles/Stoneblade/Eldrazi/Weird Enchantress/MUD crap) just don't make up enough of the meta anymore.

[Bahra]

Bahra, if you feel like making a quick tournament reports of your 5-0 run, it would be of great value =D
And nice run

Sorry I can't, the new mtgo update deleted all replays, and I've since played another league and don't remember all the other matches any more.

[Soryuu]

I'm going to Eternal Weekend and am finalizing the list i'm taking. Opinions?

// 60 Maindeck
// 7 Artifact
4 Aether Vial
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
// 26 Creature
4 Mother of Runes
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Recruiter of the Guard
4 Flickerwisp
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Banisher Priest
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
// 4 Instant
4 Swords to Plowshares
// 23 Land
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
2 Karakas
2 Cavern of Souls
10 Plains
1 Horizon Canopy

// 15 Sideboard
// 2 Artifact
SB: 1 Sword of War and Peace
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
// 8 Creature
SB: 1 Leonin Relic-Warder
SB: 1 Banisher Priest
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Faerie Macabre
SB: 2 Mirran Crusader
// 2 Enchantment
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
// 1 Instant
SB: 1 Path to Exile
// 2 Sorcery
SB: 2 Council's Judgment

[Tylert]

I'm going to Eternal Weekend and am finalizing the list i'm taking. Opinions?

// 60 Maindeck
// 7 Artifact
4 Aether Vial
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
// 26 Creature
4 Mother of Runes
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Recruiter of the Guard
4 Flickerwisp
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Banisher Priest
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
// 4 Instant
4 Swords to Plowshares
// 23 Land
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
2 Karakas
2 Cavern of Souls
10 Plains
1 Horizon Canopy

// 15 Sideboard
// 2 Artifact
SB: 1 Sword of War and Peace
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
// 8 Creature
SB: 1 Leonin Relic-Warder
SB: 1 Banisher Priest
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Faerie Macabre
SB: 2 Mirran Crusader
// 2 Enchantment
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
// 1 Instant
SB: 1 Path to Exile
// 2 Sorcery
SB: 2 Council's Judgment

I'd play the mirran crusaders main instead of spirit of the labyrinth and the two thalia. I'll add another phyrexian revoker also.
In the SB you can play more instant removal then (+1 path), and one more containement priest maybe? (Sneak and show is prevalent in my area).

[Soryuu]

I'd play the mirran crusaders main instead of spirit of the labyrinth and the two thalia. I'll add another phyrexian revoker also.
In the SB you can play more instant removal then (+1 path), and one more containement priest maybe? (Sneak and show is prevalent in my area).
Crusader seems really medium MB, but would you cut to make room for the Spirit?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Crusader seems really medium MB, but would you cut to make room for the Spirit?He's a 2-turn clock with ANY equipment. That's not exactly"medium" in my book. It's also a wall for all the Zombie fish running around. I definitely wouldn't cut it for a SotL.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

[iatee]

Ignoring the fact that THC is not very good, putting extra legendary creatures in your deck and then taking out copies of Karakas is not a strategy with internal consistency.

[Soryuu]

He's a 2-turn clock with ANY equipment. That's not exactly"medium" in my book. It's also a wall for all the Zombie fish running around. I definitely wouldn't cut it for a SotL.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

Zombie fish? What do you mean?


Ignoring the fact that THC is not very good, putting extra legendary creatures in your deck and then taking out copies of Karakas is not a strategy with internal consistency.

That's fair. I changed it up some:
// 60 Maindeck
// 7 Artifact
4 Aether Vial
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
// 26 Creature
4 Mother of Runes
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Recruiter of the Guard
4 Flickerwisp
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Banisher Priest
2 Mirran Crusader
// 4 Instant
4 Swords to Plowshares
// 23 Land
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
2 Karakas
2 Cavern of Souls
10 Plains
1 Horizon Canopy

// 15 Sideboard
// 2 Artifact
SB: 1 Sword of War and Peace
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
// 8 Creature
SB: 1 Leonin Relic-Warder
SB: 1 Banisher Priest
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 2 Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
// 2 Enchantment
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
// 1 Instant
SB: 1 Path to Exile
// 2 Sorcery
SB: 2 Council's Judgment

I'm also trying to put in a 1x Aven Mindcensor but I can't figure out what I would want to remove.

[filln]

Zombie fish? What do you mean?

Gurmag Angler

[Soryuu]

Gurmag Angler

Never heard that before, good point.

[Mad Mat]

Gave R/W taxes a try today at a 46 player tournament. 11th place with 4-2.

G1: 0-2 Grixis control (with therapy).
-Game 1 probe and therapy eats everything good from my hand, allowing him to take over.
-Game 2 I miss a land drop turn 3 which allows him to take over with pyromancer despite my rest in peace, killing every creature I draw.
G2: 2-1: Grixis control (with hymns and wasteland).
-Game 1 I face 5 K-commands (2 with snapcaster) in turns 3-7, one of which I manage to counter with familiar but to little avail.
-Game 2 I manascrew him with mother into thalia + wasteland and seal the deal with magus as he had no swamps.
-Game 3 he mulls (I do too), fows my vial and then fails to make any card advantage play because of my rest in peace he couldn't counter.
G3: 2-1: Eldrazi.
-Game 1 he has an unbeatable godhand (on the play chalice -> TKS -> smasher -> endbringer).
-Game 2 he has a slow hand, punished by double waste, allowing me to eventually land batterskull. Thalia was actually relevant in forcing him to waste another spirit guide on warping wail to allow him to (hopefully) get a mimic with jitte hit in (I had path and vial->wisp backup anyway).
-Game 3 is sort of the same, with jailer sealing the deal. The two paths in the side really helped here a lot, although I got lucky he drew his one-of wastes both times. Never saw a magus nor did I ever have the window to recruit for him.
G4: 0-2: U/G enchantress.
-I have little hate against this deck with my current build (no cataclysm, no spirit of the labyrinth, only one canonist, only two revoker, no pontiff or kambal). Both games I have a single hatebear which he manages to address long before my clock is even remotely threatening. There were some mana issues too, but I don't think this was ever winnable.
G5: 2-1: Lands.
-Game 1 he dies to sanctum prelate on 2 after a rather slow start without exploration but with punishing fire and gamble -> loam.
-game 2 he draws into an answer to prelate in the form of molten vortex while my clock is shit because of maze and my mana being tied up in preventing a Marit lage token from appearing.
-game 3 I have double RIP and double magus off of vial. Without the second magus I would have died to the interaction with Dark Depths, so the power of magus in this match-up really took a hit with the rules change.
G6: 2-0: Burn.
-Game 1 he gets me to 2, but only after I got some thalia beats in and he cast flame rift twice, so he's also at 6. He had a slow hand with double eidolon (both were plowed) and double flame rift. One turn he missplays hard when he bolts thalia while I have karakas open (well, might have won him the game if he hadn't, but it cost me two extra mana to recast as well so who knows). While he's tapped out after suspending a lethal rift bolt, I have enough mana to hardcast sword of fire and ice (through thalia) and equip for the win.
-Game 2 we both mull, my mother survives into thalia, stoneforge for jitte, prelate on 2 and sfm->jitte + equip for the win.

Overall, I wasn't very impressed by the red splash in this tournament. It was better during testing, so I'm not giving it up, but I'm leaning to going back to black, especially because (despite my games) true-name really was all over the place (7+ delver and they were all packing, and that's not counting blade decks). Magus seems quite easy to play around if you know what you're doing and too often a double-edged sword (against lands, shutting down your karakas and port, restricting your white sources). Plus, grixis control is waaaay more of a threat to us than czech pile. Pia and Kiran are often too expensive or uncastable with double red.

Lands(24):
5 Plains
2 Plateau
4 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
2 Cavern of Souls
3 Karakas

Creatures(26):
3 Mother of Runes
1 Judge's Familiar
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Flickerwisp
2 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Magus of the Moon
1 Vryn Wingmare
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Mangara of Corondor
1 Palace Jailer
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar

Other(11):
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Equipment

Sideboard(15):
2 Rest in Peace
2 Council's Judgment
2 Path to Exile
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Cunning Sparkmage
1 Manic Vandal
1 War Priest of Thune
1 Blessed Alliance
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Pithing Needle
1 Mirran Crusader

[DarthVicious]

Scrubbed out of a 40-ish man tourney over the weekend, basically over mulligan decisions (kept most sevens I had, only saw Vial twice all day).

Elves, Mirror, Jund, Turbo-Depths, and Burn before I dropped. Mostly just wanted to test anyway.

My All-Stars were Cloudchaser Kestrel and Eldrazi Displacer, and the usual suspects. Displacer held the fort vs the mirror for what felt like eternity until getting revoked, and Kestrel was irreplaceable vs Burn.

On another note, I've been eyeballing Scavenger Grounds for some time now. Thoughts? I've heard grave hate is good.

[Medea_]

I'm doing some intensive testing for EW and the Legacy Open this week. Anyone got any interesting builds or ideas floating around? Due to a couple of issues in my personal life, I haven't played much in the past month. I've got a couple of off the walls ideas that I've been meaning to try out, but I'm open to suggestions for things to throw on my testing schedule.

[AsmodeusDM]

Came here for the same question as Medea....

Looking to head to EW and havens't dusted off D&T in a long while.


Little concerned of all these Czech pile decks floating around... Leovold and KCmd are both realllllll scuuuuurrrrryyy.

[pbrod88]

Came here for the same question as Medea....

Looking to head to EW and havens't dusted off D&T in a long while.


Little concerned of all these Czech pile decks floating around... Leovold and KCmd are both realllllll scuuuuurrrrryyy.

While not playing in EW, SCG DC is coming up and I am thinking the same. Thought about using sword of light and shadow. I am really interested in going back to the green splash like I used two years ago at EW. I think choke and teeg could still do some work. I also really loved pridemage in the main.

[iatee]

I think my EE list is well-tuned to beat Czech and I recommend the 75. I can't make it to EW or the Open, but it would be nice to see someone else do well with it regardless.

Someone actually top4'd a large tournament with it overseas: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=17109&d=305814&f=LE

[Medea_]

Here are the approaches I see as viable, in no particular order:

1. Stock D&T. No major adaptations. Just play what you know.
2. Splash red largely for P&K. It's the best "army in a can" option available, with the big upside of being legendary.
3. Splash green for Choke. There was a list from sometime recently that did just that. Czech Pile can't really deal with enchantments.
4. Splash red and black largely off Cavern for Pontiff and Magus.
5. Get weird. Move StP to the sideboard. Maindeck something like RiP or Relic of Progenitus to fight against Snapcaster and DRS in Czech Pile. Bahra was messing around with this strategy last night on stream. It caught my attention.
6. Make moderate changes to the maindeck of stock D&T for the current meta. I've seen 2x Spirit of the Labyrinth as a good option on that front, and many people are going back to Cataclysm in the sideboard as well.

[ChrisCunningham]

6. Make moderate changes to the maindeck of stock D&T for the current meta. I've seen 2x Spirit of the Labyrinth as a good option on that front, and many people are going back to Cataclysm in the sideboard as well.

I am skeptical of the desire to play Cataclysm to combat Czech Pile. I tried it, but they keep an Underground Sea, a Deathrite Shaman, and a Baleful Strix. That beats anything we could keep unless it is exactly Karakas, Thalia, Vial, RiP. And realistically we aren't going to have Thalia on the board anyway; she died and our opponent has 4 cards left in hand.


3. Splash green for Choke. There was a list from sometime recently that did just that. Czech Pile can't really deal with enchantments.

I think if you want to actually win the lategame you need absurd knockout cards like Choke; this weekend you will catch them off-guard because they board out 6 counterspells. The smart opponents will keep 2+ force in against splash builds, but maybe you can find some other spell to bait with?


1. Stock D&T. No major adaptations. Just play what you know.

I'm on this plan, adjusting the beaters so there are more Mirran Crusaders in the deck. The games I'm winning are games where I get ahead in tempo, not card advantage, and the Crusaders aren't the worst thing to play against non-Czech decks anyway. I'll be pretty poorly set up vs decks with 4 bolt, but I at least have a coherent plan against Czech: ignore DRS and Baleful Strix and kill them while they durdle (they play Ponder too on top of DRS, Strix; this is a legitimate tempo opening in the early game). Have 2 RiP, 4 Mirran Crusader, and 2 Gideon in the deck postboard, and try to get them to bolt a Stoneforge Mystic by fetching a Batterskull so that your Crusader lives.

I don't know why they kill Stoneforge Mystic, by the way, but they all do -- most of our equipment is terrible against them with their 3 K Commands. I feel like if they identify this and play correctly, Stoneforge isn't even a 2 for 1. The only legitimate 2 for 1s in our deck are threatening to chain Flickerwisps on Recruiter or legendary creatures. I don't think trying to chain 2 for 1s against them (e.g. P&K) qualifies as a coherent strategy. Their Snapcasters are like 4 or 5 for 1s in the late game when they snap k command to kill an artifact during combat, win combat, and bring back a 2 for 1 creature from the grave. That's not something we can beat, IMO, unless we massively warp our deck.

I'm not in for massively warping the deck; there are lots of other decks to play against.

[ChrisCunningham]

By the way, I took Alesha, Who Smiles at Death through a league alongside P&K as my last attempt at plan 2 before concluding that I liked plan 1. :)

[rostov]

Notes from son over past 2 days of DnT testing/brainstorming (4 weeks after I warned him 4c was a thing):
- keep 4x mirran crusaders against 4 bolts and race to arm them with sword(s); besides
- they will serve to outrace TNN's in grixis decks.
- serra avengers to move to flex slots and might reduce to zero for other threats; still in development

[iatee]

I don't know why they kill Stoneforge Mystic, by the way, but they all do -- most of our equipment is terrible against them with their 3 K Commands. I feel like if they identify this and play correctly, Stoneforge isn't even a 2 for 1. The only legitimate 2 for 1s in our deck are threatening to chain Flickerwisps on Recruiter or legendary creatures. I don't think trying to chain 2 for 1s against them (e.g. P&K) qualifies as a coherent strategy. Their Snapcasters are like 4 or 5 for 1s in the late game when they snap k command to kill an artifact during combat, win combat, and bring back a 2 for 1 creature from the grave.

It's actually not that hard to out card advantage them. Post-board my build has 3 Recruiters, 2 PK, Palace Jailer + 2 RiP which itself eats up almost all their card advantage. If you ever resolve a RiP, suddenly the only card in their deck that seems to matter is Jace. Plus our deck has more card advantage than people think, it's just found in weird places - beyond SfM, anytime you untap with Mom you've got virtual card advantage + Flickerwisp frequently produces a 2 for 1 out of Vial.

[Medea_]

Notes from son over past 2 days of DnT testing/brainstorming (4 weeks after I warned him 4c was a thing):
- keep 4x mirran crusaders against 4 bolts and race to arm them with sword(s); besides
- they will serve to outrace TNN's in grixis decks.
- serra avengers to move to flex slots and might reduce to zero for other threats; still in development

I went 7-4 in matches last night with a stock list. List felt fine, but I'm experimenting a bit now. My current list also has 4 Crusaders... Historically I've enjoyed those aggro builds, and the pro-black of Crusader feels pretty darn good right now. I'm 3-0 currently, but that's largely due to the fact that my Elves opponent punted an easy game away. I'll take it.

[ChrisCunningham]

It's actually not that hard to out card advantage them. Post-board my build has 3 Recruiters, 2 PK, Palace Jailer + 2 RiP which itself eats up almost all their card advantage. If you ever resolve a RiP, suddenly the only card in their deck that seems to matter is Jace. Plus our deck has more card advantage than people think, it's just found in weird places - beyond SfM, anytime you untap with Mom you've got virtual card advantage + Flickerwisp frequently produces a 2 for 1 out of Vial.

I'm sorry for the tone of this reply but our experiences have been so drastically different. Can you give an example of what your game wins vs Czech Pile look like?

* Are you hitting them multiple times with equipment? Sometimes I manage to hit them once with SoFI, but the next attack it gets K commanded and the creature runs into a Baleful Strix and the K Command gets another card too from another mode.
* It sounds like you are keeping Jailer in. Are you casting Swords to Plowshares on Baleful Strix? Holding it back with Mom + Flyer? Or is the Monarch token acting as a Howling Mine / is that good? Are they being forced to block with Baleful Strix somehow, letting you keep Monarch?
* RiP is a 2-CMC permanent. It's dying to Abrupt Decay in my games. Are you landing RiP and then your opponent is tempo-forced into using Snapcaster as an Ambush Viper? Are you saving RiP until they spend a decay on an equipment? I haven't tried this line.
* Recruiter is not a 2-for-1 unless you threaten to Flickerwisp it, because our equipment is not surviving. Are your opponents spending a card on the 1/1 body before you attempt to flicker it? Or is your equipment alive so that the 1/1 is worth something?
* Is P&K doing more for you than just being a 2 for 1? All my legends meet the same fate: spot removal, activate Karakas, spot removal. Are the Thopters winning the game / also worth a card? I haven't cast P&K in my Czech games. I guess if you have Mom AND Karakas it gets tough to remove legends, but my Moms are all dead on arrival or dead by sweepers long before anything remotely approaching this situation.

What am I missing here? I guess I just want to hear about your game wins and what they look like. All my game wins vs Czech are Mirran Crusader attacking and my opponent cursing the fact that they used their Bolt too early.

The Czech Pile Primer's description of the matchup is:


This matchup is not too challenging. You run a huge amount of cheap removal for their creatures and can easily out-CA them in the lategame. Having at least 4 maindeck answers to their equipment is also very handy, and a single well-timed Kcommand can often just blow them out. The only things to be wary of are land-light hands, where you can get Wasted/Ported/Thalia’d out of the game. Prioritize your land drops, and you should easily stay alive until the late game where you have the advantage. Make sure you save a Lightning Bolt or Jace for Mirran Crusder though. Post board gets even better. You board in a metric ton of additional removal and it is almost impossible for them to keep anything on the board.

which is more or less what my experience has been. Their sideboard guide is to take out all countermagic and discard because they don't care about any of the spells we play at all.

I'd love to hear a happier story. :)

[ChrisCunningham]

My current list also has 4 Crusaders...

Are you playing any Serra Avengers? I'm torn right now, because it is definitely aggressive like the crusaders, but there are so many Baleful Strixes.. :/

[iatee]

I dunno, it kinda seems like your opponents just happen to have had the right answers at the right time. They don't always. Sometimes they'll have the Decay for RiP, other times they won't and they're playing a deck filled with Ambush Vipers and Squires.

I would say my games vs Pile have always been super grindy and generally pretty boring - unlike playing against Miracles, the new deck-to-beat doesn't play very interesting Magic. I don't think there's a single play pattern beyond you play stuff, they try to kill it. I can say that card I'm scared of the most is Hymn, since it has the possibility of turning a hand that can't lose into a hand that can't win, but other times it does effectively nothing. I find myself caring about Hymn, Command and Jace - beyond that I expect to have better card quality on average.

Palace Jailer is great against Pile, so I wouldn't dream of taking it out- it will lose you a game once in a while, but it wins you the game more often. If they have a Baleful, you can Palace Jailer it or wait until they don't. The game is going to last a while regardless.

As per whether Thopters are worth a card - yes, against decks like Pile - basically Blue Jund - any free body is worth something. That's why Lingering Souls is generally a nightmare for them. Recruiter's 1/1 body is worth something, Sfm's 1/2 body is worth something, and flying 1/1s are definitely a pain in the ass.

Since all they do is kill stuff I think you just need to maximize the amount of must-answer threats vs them, and the best way to do that may well be playing 4 Mirran Crusaders for Mono-W - but with a splash list you can play as many Crusaders and RiPs as you want + additional must-answer threats that hit them from other directions like Magus and P/K.

The deck-to-beat doesn't do *anything* to punish your mana and plays a super greedy manabase itself, so playing a super Plains-happy manabase doesn't seem like a great decision right now. Obviously I'm a partisan for WR but other splash colors also have must-answer-threats (Choke, Sylvan Library, Dark Confidant) and cards like Horizon Canopy are also better in this kinda 'lose to Plains topdeck' meta. One of my friends has been doing pretty well with a GQ/Arbiter build, which is also pretty good vs Pile. I think the Primer is right - vanilla DnT is not favored - but it's really not that hard to get to a place where you are.

[Medea_]

Are you playing any Serra Avengers? I'm torn right now, because it is definitely aggressive like the crusaders, but there are so many Baleful Strixes.. :/

The 4x Crusader list drops the 2x Avengers. Losing a couple of flying bodies hurts, but running a stream of Crusaders into your opponents feels pretty good these days... I ended up 5-1 tonight, only losing to Grixis Delver.

[ThrabenVagabond]

Whats going on ya'll. Long time reader, first time poster.

Heading into EW I'm still unsure of the correct number of Crusaders. Is 3x Crusaders and 1x Palace Jailer better than just 4x Crusaders? Jailer has always seemed clunky and too cute to me, but its appeared in a fair amount of lists seeing some success. Curious to hear your thoughts.

[Medea_]

Whats going on ya'll. Long time reader, first time poster.

Heading into EW I'm still unsure of the correct number of Crusaders. Is 3x Crusaders and 1x Palace Jailer better than just 4x Crusaders? Jailer has always seemed clunky and too cute to me, but its appeared in a fair amount of lists seeing some success. Curious to hear your thoughts.

Generally speaking, diversity is good. I'm taking a very narrow approach to adjust my matchup percentages in a few specific places. Having 6 effective copies of Mirran Crusader is a real pain for Czech Pile. Jailer is a great card, and nobody is going to fault you for throwing a copy in your deck. Go with your gut and what the results of your testing show you.

[redtwister]

I had a hilarious 49 minute game 1 against Paul Lynch yesterday, with me on Imperial and him on Czech Pile. We were both a bit wiped from work, but it was amazing how any slight misplay let the other person into the game. I think we both misplayed 3-4 times, but it was always close. I did not see a Cavern until the 45th minute and never saw a Wasteland, but I had 3 Ports working overtime. I ended up losing largely because he found his last Snapcaster and FoW with about 15 cards left in his deck and I had to try and resolve Recruiter on Cavern and then Jailer without it.

[AsmodeusDM]

Generally speaking, diversity is good. I'm taking a very narrow approach to adjust my matchup percentages in a few specific places. Having 6 effective copies of Mirran Crusader is a real pain for Czech Pile. Jailer is a great card, and nobody is going to fault you for throwing a copy in your deck. Go with your gut and what the results of your testing show you.

Medea so are you running stock mono-white? What's been in your flex spots?

[Medea_]

Medea so are you running stock mono-white? What's been in your flex spots?

I'm running something just a few cards different from the first list here (http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?page_id=11). I've replaced the Avengers with more Crusaders, and made a couple of sideboard adjustments that I'll keep to myself until after the event.

[koten]

One of my friends has been doing pretty well with a GQ/Arbiter build, which is also pretty good vs Pile.

Would you happen to have a list handy by chance?

[iatee]

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/784415#paper

While I'm sure it's the thing that's gonna catch a lot of eyes - the Field of Ruin was just something I suggested he test on a whim, he never got to use it.

[Moctzal]

The 4x Crusader list drops the 2x Avengers. Losing a couple of flying bodies hurts, but running a stream of Crusaders into your opponents feels pretty good these days... I ended up 5-1 tonight, only losing to Grixis Delver.

I'm tempted to run 4 Mirran Crusader, and run a second Sword of Fire and Ice instead of Batterskull.

[DarthVicious]

Just spitballing some ideas onto the chalkboard I had recently.

Geist of Saint Traft in a Cavern of Souls list, or a blue splash with Meddling Mage, Reflector Mage
Winding Canyons as a backup Vial of sorts, that gets better eventually once more land is on the table
+it can drop multiple creatures at instant speed in the same turn, at varied mana costs
-costs two extra mana to use it, and you have to actually cast the creatures
Mirri, Weatherlight Duelist seems good vs fair decks in a green splash build. Even has some application vs Elves by stopping them from going nuts with a Hoof'd team, albeit maybe a bit slow compared to their mana critters
Someone should really test Necropouncer besides me, the power boost is huge and haste is pretty good no matter what creature you give it to. Turn 3 SfM out Necropouncer, swing 3. Turn 4 Flickerwisp targeting your only flier, equip, swing 6 in the air?
Harsh Mentor, Magus, P&K are all human... hmmm...
Best SB things vs Elves may be Pontiff and Canonist, anyone else find anything better? Help me Thalia Wan-Kenobi, you're my only hope...

I scrapped the Cavern list for the time being and went back to monowhite... I loved having 11 Plains maindeck. I'm perfectly willing to test Canyons myself, I'm planning on a 25 land build for this next batch of testing. 11, 4, 4, 4, 2 for those wondering.

[koten]

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/784415#paper

While I'm sure it's the thing that's gonna catch a lot of eyes - the Field of Ruin was just something I suggested he test on a whim, he never got to use it.

Has your friend found any tension between Arbiter and SFM in a list like this?

[iatee]

Yes, it's awkward, but there's not much you can do about it. The deck has its share of awkward draws and its share of super busted hands.

[Medea_]

@Darthvicious
25 lands is a ton. I'd test 24 first.

@Koten

A few of the other Arbiter builds in the past cut SFM or put it in the sideboard for just that reason. From my experience with similar decks, I'd say that this deck has a much better early game, but a bit weaker late game. It's a bit harder to fight things that resolve since your bodies are largely small and lack evasion, so it's also waaayyyy better on the play than draw.

[Soryuu]

Last minute prep for Eternal Weekend, anyone have any opinions on my deck list?

// 60 Maindeck
// 7 Artifact
4 Aether Vial
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
// 26 Creature
4 Mother of Runes
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Recruiter of the Guard
4 Flickerwisp
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Banisher Priest
2 Mirran Crusader
// 4 Instant
4 Swords to Plowshares
// 23 Land
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
2 Karakas
2 Cavern of Souls
10 Plains
1 Horizon Canopy


// 15 Sideboard
// 2 Artifact
SB: 1 Sword of War and Peace
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
// 8 Creature
SB: 1 Leonin Relic-Warder
SB: 1 Banisher Priest
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 2 Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
// 2 Enchantment
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
// 1 Instant
SB: 1 Path to Exile
// 2 Sorcery
SB: 2 Council's Judgment

[Medea_]

@soryuu

You probably don't need 2 Banisher Priest in the 75, especially if you are on three Recruiter. I'd cut one for something else. Honestly, I'm not too hot on that card right now anyway. So many of the most popular creatures either get value on etb (snapcaster, baleful strix) or come down long before Banisher Priest and really need a more immediate answer (e.g. Delver).

Otherwise most of your choices seem reasonable. I'd make sure you have a good sideboard plan for the top 5 or so decks. Make sure you have enough cards in your sideboard to come in for common matchups, as well as a matching number to take out. You don't have some of the common sideboard cards like Gideon, so your sideboarding against a deck like Czech Pile might be different from what others are doing.

[Soryuu]

@soryuu

You probably don't need 2 Banisher Priest in the 75, especially if you are on three Recruiter. I'd cut one for something else. Honestly, I'm not too hot on that card right now anyway. So many of the most popular creatures either get value on etb (snapcaster, baleful strix) or come down long before Banisher Priest and really need a more immediate answer (e.g. Delver).

Otherwise most of your choices seem reasonable. I'd make sure you have a good sideboard plan for the top 5 or so decks. Make sure you have enough cards in your sideboard to come in for common matchups, as well as a matching number to take out. You don't have some of the common sideboard cards like Gideon, so your sideboarding against a deck like Czech Pile might be different from what others are doing.

I removed Gideon because it didnt see that much value to me, but against pile you're right I do see that value. I agree, probably only one Banisher works since I run a bunch of tutors. I was also thinking about swapping Faerie for two Surgicals, as well. Any other board choices you would consider?

What are thoughts on going to 22 lands? Andrew Caldaron won GP Vegas with the list with 22 and occasionally a list pops up.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

If you are going to play 3 tutors, dropping all Faerie Macabre is wrong. Keep at least 1.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

[Medea_]

I personally strongly disagree with the choice to run 22 lands in this deck under pretty much any circumstances. We're already tight on white mana as is, and dropping one source seems risky to me.

I run Surgical over Faerie as a strategic choice. If you are up to 3 Recruiters though, Faerie makes quite a bit of sense as at least a 1-of.

[AsmodeusDM]

I personally strongly disagree with the choice to run 22 lands in this deck under pretty much any circumstances. We're already tight on white mana as is, and dropping one source seems risky to me.

I run Surgical over Faerie as a strategic choice. If you are up to 3 Recruiters though, Faerie makes quite a bit of sense as at least a 1-of.

I agree, 22 is just not enough lands. But especially if you are more 3 and 4 drop heavy (i.e. less avengers and revokers, more crusaders or other 3+) than 23 isn't really enough either.

Rounding off the decimals it's actually a pretty simple progression:

22 lands: 37% mana
23 lands: 38% mana
24 lands: 40% mana

Granted I think 40% mana is TOO much; which is why (despite being unpopular) I often like to run 24 lands in 61 card deck.

24 lands (in 61): 39% mana

[Medea_]

I agree, 22 is just not enough lands. But especially if you are more 3 and 4 drop heavy (i.e. less avengers and revokers, more crusaders or other 3+) than 23 isn't really enough either.

Rounding off the decimals it's actually a pretty simple progression:

22 lands: 37% mana
23 lands: 38% mana
24 lands: 40% mana

Granted I think 40% mana is TOO much; which is why (despite being unpopular) I often like to run 24 lands in 61 card deck.

24 lands (in 61): 39% mana


If you want to play around with numbers more, Chris Cunningham's program is pretty baller. You can find it and the accompanying article here. (http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?p=1309)

[AsmodeusDM]

If you want to play around with numbers more, Chris Cunningham's program is pretty baller. You can find it and the accompanying article here. (http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?p=1309)

Nice Phil; thanks good stuff.

[Emurian]

Hey guys,

I have been brewing a bit lately while keeping my Deadguy Ale list in the back of my mind. I would like to gain some input how people think about this. (SB has to be refined after testing.)

4 mother of runes
4 Thalia guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Dark Confidant
2 Mirran Crusader
3 Tidehowler Sculler
1 Recruiter of the Guard

4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Chrome Mox
1 Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

2 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
2 Cavern of Souls
3 Scrubland
4 Plains
4 Marsh Flats
3 Karakas

SB
1 Batterskull
2 Sanctum Prelate
1 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Rest In peace
1 Containment Priest
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Kambal
2 Councils Judgement
1 Pithing Needle

To point out some things beforehand:
#1 22 lands, went down from the usueal 23 I wield due to the 2 chrome moxes.
#2 Cutting on SFM, I know this is part heresy, but I have been playing 2 SFM in my Deadguy for quite some time now and it works fine in that deck. I very rarely fetch for Bskull first because its just begging for a removal spell to be played on SFM whereas if you opt to go for a 3 CMC sword it doesn't really matter to much if they remove it.
#3 Added Tidehowler scullers for multiple reasons: A: They can be pitched to Chrome Mox to give 2 colours, B: I proposed having some Discard with a black splash before and Medea pointed out it only has like a 5% chance to happen in your opening hand. Thus I took a discard thats +1 CMC, and also able to being vialled in in case your stripped of black sources C: Allot of people here seemed to like the Spyglass that has been printed as an ''upgrade'' over Peedle, one of the main arguments I read is that people like the information, sculler gives you info also for 2 CMC while stripping your opponents hand of the thing you fear the most.
#4 Regarding SB, main 2 things I kept in mind where the Combo matchup (6) and GY hate (4) (with elves (4) in the back of my mind).

Im open for suggestions.

(Thing I had in mind for SB was including a PW like Kaya Ghost Assasin or Sorin Solemn Visitor. Also not to sure about the Councils but its more ''catch them all'' answer. Could replace these with Vindicates to include land destruction, vindicate also works better with Chrome Mox.)

[Medea_]

About to leave for EW, so I don't have time to look a the numbers and your manabase, but Sculler always felt had to cast on turn 2 for me. You can use Chris's program (linked above) to figure out the number of sources you need to try to cast it on curve, but it always felt difficult. Hoogland played around with Kaya for a little while to some success in Dead Guy Ale, describing it as similar to Jace in terms of card advantage, but requiring a few more hoops to jump through to be optimal.

[MrFrowny_]

Hey guys, I've been interested in the BW D&T lists that run Dark Confidant and some 1-mana discard but I don't have a gallery of lists I can look at because I assume not that many people play that.

Anyways, if there is anyone here that plays BW D&T then I'd like some general advice on the deck and if it's worth considering or if I should just play Deadguy Ale since there are tons of similarities.

[iatee]

There's no way to reliably splash for 1 mana discard with our manabase - even if you went crazy and squeezed in 8 black sources, you only have t1 black 65% of the time. Splashing for black creatures is totally viable, especially humans (Bob/Pontiff/Kambal), because you get to cheat on casting costs with Vial and can push your black mana count with Cavern. So you should do that, since the resulting deck is more powerful than Deadguy Ale. But don't play Thoughtseize.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

There's a tourney report from quite a ways back from Richard Cheese that features a Black and Taxes list. You might see if you can find it, I liked it. You'll have to update it, but it looked marvelous.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

[dnt4lyfe]

i have a legit question, is gideon ally of zendikar or palace jailer actually good in the deck. I feel like they make the deck more clunky. I usally find beating 4c control not too hard if you just play the tempo game of deny them mana and beat with mirrans/equipment. I'm on a 2 serra/mirran list thinking of going 4 mirran.'

But honest question what does palace jailer accomplish. It feels like the biggest win more card to me. I've been playing the deck for like 2 years, and decided to finally make an account on here to post. But against pile they have tons of creatures to steal monarch with, if were winning and they don't have a single drs/strix to steal monarch with and we success grind them out, we were probably already winning?

Gideons are either amazing or really bad. They can win a stalemight quite easy, but they go against the main stategy against pile, which is attack there mana base very quickly and beat down.

[CptHaddock]

i have a legit question, is gideon ally of zendikar or palace jailer actually good in the deck. I feel like they make the deck more clunky. I usally find beating 4c control not too hard if you just play the tempo game of deny them mana and beat with mirrans/equipment. I'm on a 2 serra/mirran list thinking of going 4 mirran.'

But honest question what does palace jailer accomplish. It feels like the biggest win more card to me. I've been playing the deck for like 2 years, and decided to finally make an account on here to post. But against pile they have tons of creatures to steal monarch with, if were winning and they don't have a single drs/strix to steal monarch with and we success grind them out, we were probably already winning?

Gideons are either amazing or really bad. They can win a stalemight quite easy, but they go against the main stategy against pile, which is attack there mana base very quickly and beat down.

Do you people actually play the matchups you talk about? The 4c matchup is abysmal, Michael Blonde has even said that playing mono W D&T on MTGO (which is full of the deck) is basically pointless. You might cheese out a few wins because your opponent doesn't draw the appropriate removal with 4 Crusaders but in general it's a card that doesn't do much in a lot of matchups.

Jailer gives you value as the game goes longer and that is exactly what you need for the matchup, the same goes for P&K if you are on the red splash. I'm not sure why drawing extra cards against a deck that can get out of binds by playing the best cards in 4 colors. The best way to beat the deck is to try to cut off their CA engines with RIP and then gain CA with cards like Jailer, P&K, Recruiter, Flickerwisp instead of trying to cheese someone out and hope that they don't draw one of non black or green removal they have in their deck.

[Emurian]

How about Absolute Grace (All creatures gain pro black) as an SB card if your so worred about the Czech pile list?

From what I am seeing at first glance (looking at some random lists) its DRS, Strix, Fatal Push, Leovold, Decay, Command. All black cards. The only non black card is snapcaster. (that said, even if they snap, whatever their snapping aint gonna hit your creatures unless its the singleton lightning bolt they have)

I have played with Absolute Law ALLOT, its in my SB 4/5 tournaments (mainly because I friggin HATE burn to the core, we also have Lands/Jund/Dark Maverick players that use Grove + P. fire) Laws are actually pretty decent cards, their only removal for it would be their Abrupt Decays.

[dnt4lyfe]

captain they have about 3 ways to kill mirran's, i often find it easy to play an aggro/tempo early game and just finish them off late game with mirran. I can also just grind them out with flickerwisp/equipment. Not as reliable as it was vs shardless. But my win rate vs 4c is about 70%. I don't even brother bringing in rip, as it does the opposite of what i want to do. Which is create a a good flow of board presense early game. I bring in more ways to disrupt there mana base game 2 aswell as cj's and other ways to deal with dread of night. I often found palace jailer was more a dead draw than a useful one.

[RobNC]

...snip...

#3 Added Tidehowler scullers for multiple reasons: A: They can be pitched to Chrome Mox to give 2 colours,

...snip...
Tidehollow Sculler can't be pitched because it's an artifact. Chrome Mox requires non-artifact.

[Medea_]

Went 9-2 at EW for 15th place. 4x Crusader build was great.

[Moctzal]

Went 9-2 at EW for 15th place. 4x Crusader build was great.

Nice job!

So many 9-2s fighting for that last top 8 spot.

[AsmodeusDM]

Nice work Medea!

Pleasure to play against you (even if I lost); that SoWaP on Mirran Crusader sure ended the game quickly :D

Look forward to your tourney report and thoughts moving forward.... all these delver decks in top8 have to be good for us right?

[pbrod88]

Went 9-2 at EW for 15th place. 4x Crusader build was great.


Nice work! What list did you use?

Choke seems like it would have been a sweet meta call with all the blue decks running wild.

What is this chatter about tabernacle being a good sideboard card for death and taxes? :eek:

[Claymore]

Saw a thread on reddit's MTGLegacy that said a guy has had success with Tabernacle in the board. Thoughts? Works as a mana denial card against go-wide decks (Elves, Pyromancer, Empty the Warrens).

I tried to search the thread but most results looked like tournament results, with one post from 2010 being a green Living Wish DnT build (but not comments on Tabernacle).

[Marungo]

Saw a thread on reddit's MTGLegacy that said a guy has had success with Tabernacle in the board. Thoughts? Works as a mana denial card against go-wide decks (Elves, Pyromancer, Empty the Warrens).

I tried to search the thread but most results looked like tournament results, with one post from 2010 being a green Living Wish DnT build (but not comments on Tabernacle).

Does not seem great to play a one of non-mana producing labd in a creature heavy deck. Is it like... fine vs the aforementioned matchups? Maybe. But there’s way better options. Just seems way too cute

[iatee]

Has anyone tested a copy of Dread of Night in the main yet? Could be powerful in the mirror.

[CptHaddock]

Has anyone tested a copy of Dread of Night in the main yet? Could be powerful in the mirror.

Sulfur Elemental seems better. You can cast it if you don't have a vial, fetch for it with recruiter and vial it in for the ultimate blowouts.

[iatee]

Problem with Sulfur Elemental is that it interacts worse with your own Tabernacle. Dread of Night doesn't require an upkeep cost.

[Moctzal]

Has anyone tested a copy of Dread of Night in the main yet? Could be powerful in the mirror.

Roasted.

[Medea_]

Tournament report for EW. (http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?p=1318)

[pbrod88]

Tournament report for EW. (http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?p=1318)

Awesome report. I appreciate that you mention the blunders you made. It reminds me of losing round 8 at x-1 at the DC Open last year with lethal on board to not paying tabernacle trigger. Long days of magic can really take a toll on you.

I really love SoWaP as well. A crusader can ends things very quickly with one of these. I remember living the dream and doing 18 points of damage in the mirror in one attack.

[Medea_]

Awesome report. I appreciate that you mention the blunders you made. It reminds me of losing round 8 at x-1 at the DC Open last year with lethal on board to not paying tabernacle trigger. Long days of magic can really take a toll on you.

I really love SoWaP as well. A crusader can ends things very quickly with one of these. I remember living the dream and doing 18 points of damage in the mirror in one attack.

I connected with SoWaP on a Crusader against AsmodeusDM. I have his life at 23, and then a win next to my name. I think that was the time I put both SoFaI and SoWaP on Crusader. That was fun. There was another fun scenario in round 11 where my Flickerwisp with SoWaP raced a TNN with Jitte. My opponent was forced to gain four life a turn with Jitte or die. I mean, he still died, but it took a few turns longer.

[AsmodeusDM]

I connected with SoWaP on a Crusader against AsmodeusDM. I have his life at 23, and then a win next to my name. I think that was the time I put both SoFaI and SoWaP on Crusader. That was fun. There was another fun scenario in round 11 where my Flickerwisp with SoWaP raced a TNN with Jitte. My opponent was forced to gain four life a turn with Jitte or die. I mean, he still died, but it took a few turns longer.


As I recall we played a long back and forth game while we battled over resources for you to be able to play SoWap and equip in one turn; including me making a 2/2 soldier each turn off Gideon to chump block Mirran Crusader.

Eventually your patience won out and I was out of answers to equipment (I believe I had already cast 2 CJudge's that game) and you got it equipped and swung; I had 4 in hand so you redirected the first SoWap to Gideon to off him and did a total of 12 to me. The next turn I drew and didn't have anything to deal with the equipment or a Revoker capable of blocking and conceded.

[Medea_]

That sounds about right. I played the mirror 4 times this weekend, so they started to blur together in my mind. Gideon can be a real pain in the mirror when you stick him on the right board. Derczo almost aggro'd me out just by making a couple of tokens and then making the emblem.

[AsmodeusDM]

That sounds about right. I played the mirror 4 times this weekend, so they started to blur together in my mind. Gideon can be a real pain in the mirror when you stick him on the right board. Derczo almost aggro'd me out just by making a couple of tokens and then making the emblem.

Agreed; I played the mirror a second time on the day and won (2-0). In particular on the back of a nice surprise (for my opponent) who late in a game killed off my sole blocker, animated his Gideon, equipped Jitte, swang and pumped GIdeon with all the counters for lethal.... and then I bounced it with Karakas :D

Apparently he wasn't aware of the exact implications of the new Legendary supertype rule for planeswalkers :D