[Deck] Death and Taxes

[rostov]

Tournament report for EW. (http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?p=1318)


I’ll likely play something pretty similar next weekend for the Legacy Open. I’ve been toying around with the idea of dropping a Revoker for something else, as it isn’t great against Delver and Czech Pile, but I haven’t convinced myself to pull the trigger yet. It’s too important for many of the fringe matchups, and it’s nice to have them in the deck when I’m staring down a Dread of Night. I was also considering playing some kooky enchantments to fight against Czech Pile, but I couldn’t quite justify running something like Angelic Destiny in a serious tournament. Enchantments are a real pain to get off the board for much of the format, and I think that’s a good direction to explore. I’ll muck around in The Gatherer later this week to see if anything catches my eye.




Did you wish you had a palace jailer at any of the matchups and if so against which deck? In addition would it be something you would consider eg. +1 jailer -1 revoker

[Medea_]

I never thought to myself, "Boy, I wish I had Jailer here!" There are times where it potentially could have been useful (e.g. against Jund or Sneak and Show), but I don't feel like I need it. The card is objectively very powerful, but the card does come with a price. You'll lose most games where you lose Monarch status to your opponent for more than a turn or two. In the world of disposable bodies that we're in now, that's not the place where I want to be. I like it more in the red build, as P&K can help clog up the board and then let you really take over the game from there.

If I drop a Revoker, it will be to maindeck a card that is good against both Delver and Czech Pile. A one of Vryn Wingmare, for example, would compensate for me dropping some fliers for the Crusaders.

[WashableWater1]

Looking at all that Grixis Delver in top 8 at EW has me trying to figure out what to do to improve the match up. Currently I run a pretty stock list and board -3 Revoker +2 CJ and +2 Path. I’ve been finding the matchup pretty unfavorable still but I’m not super sure what to do about it. I really don’t like Banisher Priest type effects, and usually find myself losing to Delver itself. That being said, what are people’s feelings on RIP in the matchup? On upping the number of removal spells? On Wingmare?

I personally want to try out Eldrazi Displacer. It kind of gives another Mom effect, unflips delvers, ignores Dread and Forked Bolt and offers a significant clock.

[iatee]

3 Path always feels great against Delver decks, since it lets you spend your removal freely - you rarely make it to turn 3/4 without having access to at least one piece of cheap removal. That in turn forces them to spend their turns digging for another threat rather than messing with your stuff. I like Fiendslayer a lot against them too, occasionally he's blanked by a Angler, but anytime else he's great, the incidental lifegain is huge.

[DarthVicious]

I personally want to try out Eldrazi Displacer. It kind of gives another Mom effect, unflips delvers, ignores Dread and Forked Bolt and offers a significant clock.

I'm loving Displacer. He also reuses birth triggers (Flickerwisp, Stoneforge, Jailer, Recruiter, etc) Shuts down opposing equipment that's not attached to True-Derp, can negate combat damage, can tap down opposing blockers or prevent attacks, permanently exiles tokens, resets Revoker or Prelate, the list of synergies is endless if you have the mana. He gets better the longer the game goes... and this is D&T.

I had one Displacer with a bunch of mana vs a superior board position in the mirror and held him off for what seemed like ten turns just by flickering his offensive creatures. He kept trying to equip to Mirran and Mom was powerless. I lost when he drew into Revoker, but such is life.

[Medea_]

Displacer is 100% viable in the flex slots. It's not always good, but, boy, when it is, it takes over games. I think the issue people have with it is that it rarely is amazing on its own. It requires something on your side or the opposing side to generate value, which differentiates it from something like Recruiter, which generates value regardless of the board state.

[ChrisCunningham]

My issue with playing Displacer has been that when I have a colorless land in play to use it as a mana sink, the colorless land almost always could have acted as a mana sink on its own without the Displacer. So your net gain from having Displacer in play is not as high as you would expect.

[ChrisCunningham]

My report:

7-4 matches, missed $ by one match at Eternal Weekend main event. I played a LOT of magic (nine game threes), and still was able to notice on the spot how I could have won eight of the games I lost (details below). Basically the deck felt great.

1-2 BUG Delver
2-1 D&T
1-2 Elves!
1-2 Infect
2-1 D&T
2-1 Elves!
2-1 4c Loam
2-1 UW Blade
2-0 4c Blade
2-1 Miracles
0-2 Elves!
Maindeck:

52 usual suspects including 23 Lands, 2 Recruiter
2 Revoker
2 Serra Avenger
1 Prelate
3 Crusader
Sideboard:

3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Containment Priest
2 Gideon, Ally
2 Rest in Peace
1 Manriki-Gusari (!!!)
1 Disenchant
1 Crusader
1 Blessed Alliance
1 Council’s Judgment
1 Faerie Macabre
Only 10% of the decks at EW played equipment; you could argue that I got lucky playing my Manriki+Disenchant sideboard against 4 equipment decks; I’ll happily reply that you can’t call me lucky playing against 3 elf decks (3% of the field). I also think that if we play efficient enough answers to equipment, we actually free up a sideboard slot because we can race unequipped True-Name Nemeses instead of trying to answer them with the second Council's Judgment. Also if an equipment exists that completely changes the game in 10% of your matches, I think you should play that equipment in your 75.

Notable game losses that another pilot maybe could have won:

R1 G3 vs BUG Delver: Facing down an enemy Wasteland and Delver, my only white source is a Karakas. I choose to cast a Thalia instead of a Swords to Plowshares as my last white spell of the game. I die. This one could maybe be a victory for someone better.
R2 G1 vs D&T: I attack with my Mirran Crusader into his Stoneforge Mystic, letting him get Jitte counters for no reason. Die. Still win the match.
R3 G1 vs Elves: I vial in Flickerwisp at my end step to deny him resources, but I target an elf rather than the active Wirewood Symbiote, so I die on the spot. I actually have a chance this game and win game 2, so this match is maybe winnable by a better pilot.
R4 G2 vs Infect: I don’t scam my opponent when I could have; he puts his Berserk on top of his Invigorate on top of his creature on the battlefield. If I call a judge, I probably can convince the judge that the Invigorate has not resolved yet, which would win the game. In reality I did indicate that it had resolved, so this is more of an ethical question than a gameplay question; I don’t regret letting him win this. So this match is winnable by a less ethical pilot.
R5 G2 vs D&T: I let my opponent untap with a Mom instead of disenchanting his Revoker on my turn for absolutely no reason, and die. Still won the match.
R7 vs 4c Loam: I sideboard out Prelate for G2 because I think he is playing Maverick, which is fine, but then I fail to bring it in for G3 because I am apparently braindead. Still win the match.
R10 G1 vs Miracles: Late in the game I don’t port to keep him off Jace, and die to Jace ultimate. Still win the match.
R11 G1 vs Elves: I play a second vial instead of porting his turn 1 land; it turns out he kept a one-lander and I would have more or less instantly won the game. So this match is maybe winnable by a better pilot.
Fun plays:

Won a game 1 where the opponent had both a Batterskull and a Jitte equipped to a True-Name Nemesis with Jitte counters. Mirran Crusader was already holding a Jitte with 2 counters, and it got a Sword, which does 24 damage in one hit.
Leaving Manriki equipped to the Germ while moving the Batterskull to a flyer is a really nice feeling; it happened twice.
Vs Infect game 1, I had Thalia in play and Swords in hand against an opponent with a free counterspell in hand, a threat on the table, and 2 mana available to pay for Thalia: an untapped fetch and a Noble Hierarch. I vialed in a Revoker on Noble Hierarch and Wastelanded the fetchland; in response to him cracking it cast the (now uncounterable) Swords to Plowshares. I had never done that before.
Going forward I would try to find room for the Paths again. It felt terrible not having them vs my one Delver opponent and on average you will play against more Delvers than I did. I also need to stop thinking about sideboarding Longbow Archer because it is not a good idea; please send help.

My Plan A vs Czech Pile (which went pretty well in the two Trials where I went 2-1 matches, 5-2 games against Czech Pile) was to literally play an aggro deck after they removed my first two plays; 4 Crusader and 2 attacking 5/5 Gideons singlehandedly form a coherent plan which won 3 of those 5 games. One of the games was a win with Plan B: RiP + non-attacking Gideon to win a slightly-later but not-too-late game, and the other was a normal mana denial free win. So although I did not see Czech in the main event, I would happily play this list against a Czech meta.

Since I already bought a lot of points in equipment matches with the Disenchant and Manriki, it's possible that I could find room for the 2 Paths by cutting Serra Avengers and bringing the 4th Crusader and 1 random spell back into the maindeck. But every time I cut Serra Avengers, I miss them. So I'm not sure.

Suggestions, questions, and supernatural wards to avoid elves are welcome.

[DarthVicious]

My issue with playing Displacer has been that when I have a colorless land in play to use it as a mana sink, the colorless land almost always could have acted as a mana sink on its own without the Displacer. So your net gain from having Displacer in play is not as high as you would expect.

You don't run him as a mana sink, you run him for the ability to be there when you need it. Also because he's a colorless 3cc 3/3. Although I will admit it can be a pain that he can't target himself sometimes. This is why we have Mother of Runes.


Suggestions, questions, and supernatural wards to avoid elves are welcome.

*waves hands* May we all avoid the pointy-eared menace.

[redtwister]

@ChrisCunningham
How did you like Manriki-Gusari? I am considering bringing it back, what with Stoneblade and DnT.

[ChrisCunningham]

@ChrisCunningham
How did you like Manriki-Gusari? I am considering bringing it back, what with Stoneblade and DnT.

I will paraphrase some reasons against playing Manriki that I think I understood correctly from other D&T players.

* Manriki only works if you are ahead in the "equip something to a creature" game, in which case why aren't you just equipping Jitte and winning the game?
* Manriki is good against equipment decks, but so are other things and our sideboard slots are precious, so you should play some other protection-from-white sword so your sideboard slot isn't so narrow.

I kind of agree and kind of disagree with the arguments above.

Equipment mirrors are first and foremost about doing combat damage with Umezawa's Jitte. Often a game ends when one player can do this and another cannot. If Jitte gets prevented somehow (Revokers, Mothers of Runes) then the game moves on to a subgame where someone tries to win without Jitte counters (Batterskull, flyers, value, planeswalkers). However, all the normal answers to the Jitte are actually kind of temporary. A Revoker can die, a Mom can get tapped for something else, and as a result the Jittes sit on the field like the Golden Snitch. You put all your effort into a complicated subgame, but often the game ends up being about leveraging the subgame to get Jitte counters in the end anyway.

With a Manriki on the table, your opponent never even puts the Jitte on the table. They have to answer your Manriki before the Jitte can even hit the table. Equip 1 means you will basically always have it active. This means that even when you slip up in the subgame and your protection falls apart temporarily, you still don't get instakilled by a Jitte. It's a nearly impossible proposition for an opponent to do this:

* Get through whatever your protection is to deactivate Manriki for a turn
* Land their equipment
* Equip it for 2
* Hit you

I say "deactivate for a turn," because Revoker / Needle are really quite bad at answering Manriki: it is equipped a turn earlier (equip 1!) and to actually shut it down they have to both answer the creature it is on AND needle/revoke the Manriki, which is way more resources than are needed to lock down the other equipment (equip 2!!).

So in the end, I believe Manriki fundamentally changes the equipment mirror by adding a whole new level of things-to-answer before they can hit you with equipment, while also giving your random nonsense creatures something to do. Don't forget that +1/+2 is also a nontrivial boost for 1 mana.

Finally, while this kind of sideboard card is certainly narrow, I would play lots of narrow equipments if they were this good. If there was an equipment that had equip 1 and "Equipped creature has Tap: Destroy target Elf" or "Equipped creature has Tap: exile target card from an opponent's graveyard" I would totally play it. Essentially, if you could always attack the fundamental strategy of 10% of the field with only 1 sideboard equipment, then I would consider starting my sideboard with 10 of these equipments, one for each 10%! The other 5 sideboard cards are probably Canonists and Containment Priests, and that's that.

However, I do think the "come on, we only get 15 slots" argument is totally valid too. If SFM decks drop to 5%, I agree the card is bad. I do believe there is a cutoff percentage, though, where the card is a must-play.

[redtwister]

@ChrisCunningham
This corresponds with my take. I feel like the combination of DnT and Stoneblade (and amazingly the increasingly common Maverick!) decks means that this is very good against ~15% of the meta, and can be huge in those matches.

[Marungo]

I will paraphrase some reasons against playing Manriki that I think I understood correctly from other D&T players.

* Manriki only works if you are ahead in the "equip something to a creature" game, in which case why aren't you just equipping Jitte and winning the game?
* Manriki is good against equipment decks, but so are other things and our sideboard slots are precious, so you should play some other protection-from-white sword so your sideboard slot isn't so narrow.

I kind of agree and kind of disagree with the arguments above.

Equipment mirrors are first and foremost about doing combat damage with Umezawa's Jitte. Often a game ends when one player can do this and another cannot. If Jitte gets prevented somehow (Revokers, Mothers of Runes) then the game moves on to a subgame where someone tries to win without Jitte counters (Batterskull, flyers, value, planeswalkers). However, all the normal answers to the Jitte are actually kind of temporary. A Revoker can die, a Mom can get tapped for something else, and as a result the Jittes sit on the field like the Golden Snitch. You put all your effort into a complicated subgame, but often the game ends up being about leveraging the subgame to get Jitte counters in the end anyway.

With a Manriki on the table, your opponent never even puts the Jitte on the table. They have to answer your Manriki before the Jitte can even hit the table. Equip 1 means you will basically always have it active. This means that even when you slip up in the subgame and your protection falls apart temporarily, you still don't get instakilled by a Jitte. It's a nearly impossible proposition for an opponent to do this:

* Get through whatever your protection is to deactivate Manriki for a turn
* Land their equipment
* Equip it for 2
* Hit you

I say "deactivate for a turn," because Revoker / Needle are really quite bad at answering Manriki: it is equipped a turn earlier (equip 1!) and to actually shut it down they have to both answer the creature it is on AND needle/revoke the Manriki, which is way more resources than are needed to lock down the other equipment (equip 2!!).

So in the end, I believe Manriki fundamentally changes the equipment mirror by adding a whole new level of things-to-answer before they can hit you with equipment, while also giving your random nonsense creatures something to do. Don't forget that +1/+2 is also a nontrivial boost for 1 mana.

Finally, while this kind of sideboard card is certainly narrow, I would play lots of narrow equipments if they were this good. If there was an equipment that had equip 1 and "Equipped creature has Tap: Destroy target Elf" or "Equipped creature has Tap: exile target card from an opponent's graveyard" I would totally play it. Essentially, if you could always attack the fundamental strategy of 10% of the field with only 1 sideboard equipment, then I would consider starting my sideboard with 10 of these equipments, one for each 10%! The other 5 sideboard cards are probably Canonists and Containment Priests, and that's that.

However, I do think the "come on, we only get 15 slots" argument is totally valid too. If SFM decks drop to 5%, I agree the card is bad. I do believe there is a cutoff percentage, though, where the card is a must-play.

I appreciate all that you said and the basis for which you have laid out your arguments. That all being said, I respectfully disagree.

It’s a good card in my opinion, when you’re ahead. You acknowledge this argument but don’t really refute it. I played the mirror this weekend and lost game 2. My opponent had manriki-gusari and blew up my jitte. But I would argue that that was not the reason I lost. I lost cause he had an active mom, a revoker, and 2 pieces of equipment plus gusari. Advantage compounds in this matchup and all that stuff compounded heavily. My vial was off, my removal was blanked, and I couldn’t beat jitte.

Let’s look at the game 3 I won. I had t1 vial. My opponent did not. I pressed the advantage by porting and he responded with e-tutor. If you wanna argue that shouldn’t be in the deck, I agree, but nevertheless he tutored for gusari and had it all game. And it wasn’t close. I had active jitte, I had creatures, and I never let anything stick. This is a matchup of many advantages and gusari is irrelevant unless you can get a creature to stick. Means by it is only good in a board stall or when ahead and that’s not the greatest card in the mirror because several cards can accomplish this role.

I just really have never found the card to ever be good in these matchups. A card like that is only good in the play or to somewhat “break” a board stall but it’s not even guaranteed to do that. In addition like you said blade decks and the mirror aren’t even at an all time high popularity. If I wanted a mirror breaker and good equipment matchup card I like SoWaP. It’s also good vs burn, and okay vs combo decks.

[Medea_]

I'm firmly in the SoWaP camp, but I will add one more thing to Manriki's merit for the sake of the discussion. The total play and equip cost of Manriki is 3. On curve on the draw, you can fetch that up prior to Jitte (or any other equipment) hitting the field and connecting. That's a defensive attribute that the other equipment lack.

[ChrisCunningham]

It’s a good card in my opinion, when you’re ahead. You acknowledge this argument but don’t really refute it.

I guess my argument against it is that it actually pulls you ahead in a unique way. Obviously if you deploy twice as much mana of magic cards as your opponent, you are probably going to win (vial vs no vial). But if both players are at parity going T1 Vial-or-Mom (both threaten to protect an equipment-bearer on T4) and T2 Stoneforge Mystic, and one of the players gets Jitte or SoWaP and the other gets Manriki, I would say the Manriki player has pulled ahead in a subtle and powerful way.

The Manriki player can drop and equip the equipment T3 and continue on with life. The other player cannot deploy their equipment at all now, until they have broken through the web of protection that is up. The game has been forced into a situation where the non-manrikier is stuck with cards in hand that are not even usable until *after* he has gained decisive control of the board. This is a unique property of Manriki that I used to very good effect at EW.

If you are way way behind, of course it doesn't save you -- but it puts you decisively ahead in a unique way.


he tutored for gusari and had it all game. And it wasn’t close. I had active jitte

Yes, if you don't get the Manriki with SFM so you have someone to hold it turn 3, then it is garbage. :) Friends don't let friends play Enlightened Tutor.


In addition like you said blade decks and the mirror aren’t even at an all time high popularity. If I wanted a mirror breaker and good equipment matchup card I like SoWaP. It’s also good vs burn, and okay vs combo decks.

I think that's totally fine. I completely agree that other, broader cards still give you mirror percentage points but aren't so specific to equipment mirrors. The main thing we disagree on is how much better Manriki is than SoWaP in the mirror match itself. I think it is significantly better; you and most others think it is maybe-marginally-better-but-not-enough-better. I think it's fine to disagree here.

[ChrisCunningham]

Actually -- followup question: What nonwhite matchups are you bringing War and Peace in against? Are you bringing it in against like, Show and Tell? Reanimator? Elves??

Maybe when I have War and Peace in my 75, I don't realize how many matchups it is good in, and that's why I am not landing in the same camp as you.

[Medea_]

Actually -- followup question: What nonwhite matchups are you bringing War and Peace in against? Are you bringing it in against like, Show and Tell? Reanimator? Elves??

Maybe when I have War and Peace in my 75, I don't realize how many matchups it is good in, and that's why I am not landing in the same camp as you.

I bring it it probably 50% of the time or more. It's great against just about any cantrip-based combo deck (Reanimator, Show and Tell, Omni, High Tide), it's great against any StP deck, against Punishing Fire decks, and against decks where you can reasonably expect to lose a piece of equipment or two over the course of the game to fair removal.

[dsquared]

Eternal Weekend 2017 Tournament Report

I finished 28th at EW and had a good start but lost the last 3 rounds.

After grinding in the side events Thurs/Fri and failing to acquire any byes, I decided to make a few notable changes to my list for the Legacy Champs:

I saw a lot of 4c Leovold and elected to go with 3x Mirran Crusader main.
I felt that with all the control type decks floating around, I would be playing the aggro role in most matchups, leading me to go with 2x Serra Avengers as well.
There were also a lot of Death and Taxes in the meta and I kept losing to Manriki and Sword of Light and Shadow. Unfortunately, I was unable to acquire that Light+Shadow and went with my War+Peace.
Prelate has been underwhelming of late and I really only wanted it in the Lands and Grixis Delver matchups. 4c Leovold is not as committed to 1cmc, making Prelate less effective - relegating the Prelate to the SB.
With all the Leovolds, the monarch from Jailer is nullified, so I decided to drop it from my list. Quite frankly, I’m pretty bad at monarch triggers and this is one less thing for me to remember.

Special thanks to the folks in this forum and MacKenzie Doyle for helping me finalize the list.


Lands (23)

10x Plains
1x Cavern of Souls
3x Karakas
4x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland
1x Flagstones of Trokair

Creatures (26)

4x Mother of Runes
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Flickerwisp
4x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Phyrexian Revoker
3x Mirran Crusader
2x Serra Avenger
2x Recruiter of the Guard

Other Spells (11)

4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Aether Vial
1x Batterskull
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Umezawa’s Jitte

Sideboard (15)

2x Cataclysm
2x Council’s Judgment
2x Rest in Peace
2x Faerie Macabre
2x Containment Priest
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Pithing Needle
1x Sword of War and Peace
1x Sanctum Prelate

Round 1: Win 2-1 vs Justin on Pox (1-0)

Gm1:

I mull to 5 on the draw. Opponent starts with Urborg, Inquisition of Kozilek, followed by Mishra’s Factory, Gifted Aetherborn, Sinkhole and Hymn to Tourach. Liliana of the Veil continued to destroy my hand and I just lose.

Gm2: +1 Pithing Needle, +2 Council’s Judgment, -2 Serra Avenger, -1 Flickerwisp

Vial and porting his lands got me there. He eventually got to Liliana, The Last Hope but my mom was able to protect my board.

Gm3:

Kept a hand with vial, mana denial, and Revoker. Same game plan got me there. I didn’t even know he was on Pox until he showed me his deck after the game.

Round 2: Win 2-1 vs Johnny on Turbo Depths (2-0)

Gm1:

He beat me quick with Vampire Hexmage and Dark Depths.

Gm2: +1 Pithing Needle, +2 Council’s Judgment, -2 Recruiter of the Guard, -1 Stoneforge Mystic

I kept a hand with Karakas and Revoker on Vampire Hexmage that got me there.

Gm3:

I had the nuts for this game. Karakas with Needle on Thespian Stage, and a Swords to Plowshares for backup.

Round 3: Win 2-0 vs Benji on Eldrazi Post (3-0)

Gm1:

This was a good close one. Opponent Spyglass my Rishadan Port so I couldn’t mana denial. I used Revoker on Grim Monolith, but he eventually got to two Reality Smashers. I made a timely double block with Mirran Crusader and Revoker to kill one and rode double Serra Avenger to win.

Gm2: +2 Cataclysm, +2 Council’s Judgment, -4 mom

I was on the mana denial plan. Opponent resolved Spyglass on Rishadan Port and Stoneforge Mystic. Cataclysm was a blowout in this game and I eventually drew into a second one if he managed to build up again. Serra Avengers and Mirran Crusaders proved to be very good in this matchup. Cataclysm was MVP, but be careful that they don’t have a bigger creature left.

Round 4: Win 2-1 vs Michael on Stax (4-0)

Gm1:

This game was crazy and went for 30 mins. Tanglewire really slowed down the game for him to resolve Ensnaring Bridge. I put revoker on his Staff of Domination and we were in a stalemate until he stuck the third bridge. I asked to count the cards in our deck and I would have eventually lost due to my Stoneforge and Recruiter thinning my deck earlier. Scooped it up with 20mins to go. Also saw Crucible of Worlds allowing him to recur Wasteland and Buried Ruin.

Gm2: +1 Pithing Needle, +2 Council’s Judgment, +2 Rest in Peace, +2 Cataclysm, -4 mom, -3 Swords to Plowshares

The game was much faster this time as he tried to slow me down with Smokestack. I was able to pump out enough threats and made the right choices on sacrificing to Smokestack while maintaining threat.

Gm3:

We only had 9 minutes to complete the game and managed to win it before he was able to lock down the board. The key to this matchup is to have constantly dropping permanents. Rest in Peace is good to counter the Crucible recursion.

Round 5: Win 2-1 vs Vince on Eldrazi (5-0)

Gm1:

I went down to 5 on this one, but eventually won it with the fliers

Gm2: +2 Cataclysm, +2 Council’s Judgment, -4 mom

I lost this game due to double reality smashers and was only able to swords one of them.

Gm3:

I managed to swords his first reality smasher threat and knocked him down with recruiter and the chain of flickerwisps.

Round 6: Win 2-0 vs Justin Parnell on Sultai Shadow (6-0)

Gm1:

All I saw were shocklands, discard spells, and a DRS. He did most of the damage to himself and I finished him off with my creatures.

Gm2: +2 Rest in Peace, -2 Serra Avenger

At this point, I had no idea what the opponent was playing. I chose to go with RIP because I saw the DRS and he may have goyf or gurmag. The game went pretty much the same as the first game. I blind named Liliana of the Veil with my revoker and stuck a RIP. Justin told me after the match that the RIP saved me. Got lucky on this one.

Round 7: Win 2-1 vs Edward on Grixis Delver (7-0)

Gm1:

Edward is a fellow Torontonian and we’ve played each other numerous times in the past. We knew each other’s decks. I was down to 5 life when I managed to get 4 Jitte counters with my Mirran Crusader and punted the game with poor use of the counters to kill his Delver and DRS. He responded with a DRS activation to get me down to 3 and bolt me the next turn.

Gm2: +2 RIP, +2 Council’s Judgment, +1 Sanctum Prelate, -2 Revoker, -2 Serra Avenger, -1 Flickerwisp

Gm3:

I don’t remember the rest of the match, but I managed to pump out enough threats to get me there. Vials with mana denial are the best way to win this matchup. Only keep hands that have some sort of disruption (ie. Thalia, Port, Wasteland). At this point I am starting to feel fatigued and hungry. D+T can be such a grind and does not give you much time between rounds to replenish.

Round 8: Win 2-0 vs Brian Coval on Grixis Delver (8-0)

Gm1:

Opponent mulled to 6 and kept the card on top. I only remember that he was casting a lot of cantrips and it felt like he was digging for answers. I put him on Grixis Delver after this game.

Gm2: 2 RIP, +2 Council’s Judgment, +1 Sanctum Prelate, -2 Revoker, -2 Serra Avenger, -1 Flickerwisp

This game went pretty much the same as the first one. Opponent was digging hard for answers and just seemed to draw really poorly both games. I made some poor decisions on the Jitte counters again and gave the opponent one more turn. It didn’t matter to the result, but I’ve got to clean things up.

Round 9: Lose 0-2 vs HJ on Sultai Delver (8-1)

At this point, HJ and I were the only two undefeated. I really punted this match bad. You can watch all the misplays here: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/184303938

Gm1:

The opponent had the nuts with 3 delvers on turn 2 and flipping them (revealing hymn) on a beautiful brainstorm at upkeep on turn 3. I really had two choices at this point, go with revoker to shutdown DRS or Flickerwisp to slow down the Delvers. In hindsight, Flickerwisp would be the better play, but it likely wouldn’t have changed the result as he would come in for 6 damage from delvers (if it flips again) and 2 damage from DRS to bring me down to 3. Another swing with the 2 delvers would have won it for him.

Gm2: +2 RIP, -2 Serra Avenger

I made two huge mistakes in this game that cost me the game. The first one was not attacking Lilliana even with Revoker shutting it down. Revoker can be fragile and the Last Hope is devastating for us. The second misplay was the double block on Thalia. I could have protected it with mom after the first strike damage (assuming opponent didn’t have spot removal in hand). The safer play was to keep Thalia back to lock out the toxic deluge. I just simply punted this game as I was too focused on trying to finish him off at 5 life.

HJ deserved to win the Legacy Champs, I was simply outclassed and outplayed on this one. Congrats to him on taking the title!

Round 10: Lose 1-2 vs Seth Black on Eldrazi (8-2)

Gm1:

Seth is another fellow Torontonian. Even though I haven’t played against him before, I knew he was a solid player given that he runs an LGS near my home. I couldn’t keep up with his pressure with the Thought Knot Seer in this game.

Gm2: +2 Cataclysm, +2 Council’s Judgment, +1 Pithing Needle, -4 mom, -1 Thalia

I managed to win this game with Stoneforge fishing up Batterskull and eventually won by suiting up flyer with Batterskull.

Gm3:

I didn’t have the disruption to keep up with the pressure. In this matchup, it is key to get vial with disruption in opening hand. Eldrazi has spyglass now that helps interrupt this plan a little. The wasteland and Jitte in Seth’s MB proved to be very good in this match. Congrats to Seth on reaching the finals and representing Toronto!

Round 11: Lose 1-2 vs Kevin on Nic Fit (8-3)

Gm1:

This was a grindy game and I eventually got there with vials and drawing gas. He nearly stabilized with Thragtusk here.

Gm2: +2 RIP, +2 Council’s Judgment, -2 Serra Avenger, -2 Thalia

I couldn’t keep up with his Ixalan dino and Thragtusk.

Gm3:

He killed me with Primevil Titan Ramp to Scapeshift for Valakut to burn me down in one shot. In hindsight, I should have brought in Cataclysm for this matchup. Opponent told me that RIP is only mediocre at best. I still think it’s good in stopping veteran explorer and cabal therapy.

—
Overall, it was a fun run. Everyone I played against was super friendly and great ambassadors for the MTG community. It was also amazing to see all the support from my home MTG community in Toronto/Hong Kong and also all the D+T players who stopped me to say hi. Thank you all for the support. Sorry I couldn’t represent us in the top 8.

[Medea_]

@dsquared
Thanks for the writeup! Parnell is one of my locals. Here's the sort of list (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=115117) he's been playing for months, if you are curious.

I can see moving the Prelate to the sideboard as being reasonable. That's another one of those things I've been mulling over, but haven't had time to try yet.

[iatee]

Eternal Weekend 2017 Tournament Report
Round 9: Lose 0-2 vs HJ on Sultai Delver (8-1)

At this point, HJ and I were the only two undefeated. I really punted this match bad. You can watch all the misplays here: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/184303938

Gm1:

The opponent had the nuts with 3 delvers on turn 2 and flipping them (revealing hymn) on a beautiful brainstorm at upkeep on turn 3. I really had two choices at this point, go with revoker to shutdown DRS or Flickerwisp to slow down the Delvers. In hindsight, Flickerwisp would be the better play, but it likely wouldn’t have changed the result as he would come in for 6 damage from delvers (if it flips again) and 2 damage from DRS to bring me down to 3. Another swing with the 2 delvers would have won it for him.

Gm2: +2 RIP, -2 Serra Avenger

I made two huge mistakes in this game that cost me the game. The first one was not attacking Lilliana even with Revoker shutting it down. Revoker can be fragile and the Last Hope is devastating for us. The second misplay was the double block on Thalia. I could have protected it with mom after the first strike damage (assuming opponent didn’t have spot removal in hand). The safer play was to keep Thalia back to lock out the toxic deluge. I just simply punted this game as I was too focused on trying to finish him off at 5 life.

HJ deserved to win the Legacy Champs, I was simply outclassed and outplayed on this one. Congrats to him on taking the title!

No, your first mistake g2 didn't have to do with Liliana, you didn't need to be attacking it. When he double blocked your Revoker, you Flickerwisp'd your Revoker instead of Flickering his DRS + giving Revoker pro-Blue with Mom. That would have killed the Delver and he would have never been able to cast Toxic Deluge in time, or really do anything, since he'd be on 2 lands + DRS/Goyf vs a Thalia/Mom/Revoker/Flickerwisp/RiP.

And after that - you did actually need to be attacking with Thalia - the safer play was not to keep her back, eventually he's going to draw a land and Deluge, you needed to be pressuring his life.

[dsquared]

@dsquared
Thanks for the writeup! Parnell is one of my locals. Here's the sort of list (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=115117) he's been playing for months, if you are curious.

Thank you! I like how the deck has a varied CMC so it doesn't get locked out by Chalice/Prelate. Justin was super nice. I really enjoyed our conversation about EDH and how to maintain a fun meta.

[dsquared]

No, your first mistake g2 didn't have to do with Liliana, you didn't need to be attacking it. When he double blocked your Revoker, you Flickerwisp'd your Revoker instead of Flickering his DRS + giving Revoker pro-Blue with Mom. That would have killed the Delver and he would have never been able to cast Toxic Deluge in time, or really do anything, since he'd be on 2 lands + DRS/Goyf vs a Thalia/Mom/Revoker/Flickerwisp/RiP.

And after that - you did actually need to be attacking with Thalia - the safer play was not to keep her back, eventually he's going to draw a land and Deluge, you needed to be pressuring his life.

Sweet! Thank you for the pointers. Definitely an angle I didn't see. So much to learn with this deck still!

[ChrisCunningham]

I just 2-3'd an MTGO league:

R1 Loss vs Czech Pile
R2 Loss vs Czech Pile
R3 Win vs Elves!
R4 Win vs Elves!
R5 Loss vs 4c w/ Liliana Last Hope
......why

[Medea_]

I put up two 4-1 finishes last night and went 2 or 3 wins deep into another. I really like where my list is at going into this weekend.

[DarthVicious]

Stalking Leonin

Seems good, most comparable to Jailer. Not sure if anyone else noticed him yet.

+ costs 3
+ can be flickered to reset and used again when needed
+ 3/3
+ ability is instant speed and costs no mana
+- no monarch
- can only get attacking creatures
- can't be recruited

[Marungo]

Stalking Leonin

Seems good, most comparable to Jailer. Not sure if anyone else noticed him yet.

+ costs 3
+ can be flickered to reset and used again when needed
+ 3/3
+ ability is instant speed and costs no mana
+- no monarch
- can only get attacking creatures
- can't be recruited
Not a fan. It’s really easy to play around. Just don’t attack with things you care about. Also misses cards like DRS and baleful strix since they know what’s up. There is no secret and it lacks jailer upside. I’d go with banisher priest over this card imo.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Medea_, I always have just one issue with SoWP/LS. It's that mom can no longer target the equipped creature, and that represents a real issue for me and my playstyle. What is it that allows you to justify the decision to "turn off" mother in regards to the equipped creature? I see the value in a list with 4 M. Crusader, but in less recent iterations where we played 1/1 split mirran (main/side) or 2/0, it was less value. I get that pro white turned off stp in a Miracles dominant meta, and then revoker naming Jace pretty much used to lock it up if you're Prelate was on 6 with SoWP equipped, but now with 4c and Grixis tempo being difficult matchups and noticeably less white in the format, I can't see near the value I once could.

I don't see much value in SoLS, but I included it in my question due to it's pro: white relevance.

Thanks for your response in advance.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

[Koke_MTG]

I put up two 4-1 finishes last night and went 2 or 3 wins deep into another. I really like where my list is at going into this weekend.

Me too, I'm 10-2 on MTGO currently with my list of more confidence (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/756413#online) with your idea of adding another two copies of Mirran Crusader. I really like it even though I have only played these 77 a week.

My losses were against a friend of my LGS with Omni-Sneak and the other against Eldrazi Stompy, but on the other hand having a 3-0 record (6-0 in games) against Czech Pile is quite sweet :smile:

This kind of lists may have travel looking that, apart of the super tier 1 decks Grixis Delver and Czech Pile, HJ's BUG Delver could be the next really popular deck, at least on MTGO.

But to be honest, I'd prefer the ban of the 1CMC PW over playing 4 x Mirran Crusader...

[Medea_]

8-1 after day one, beating Derczo in the last round.

SoWaP continues to deliver. Once you have this sword active, it's rare that you need mom too. Will write a better response later at a computer.

[Emurian]

So yesterday I was playtesting versus my mate that is going to borrow my DnT in an upcoming large tournament over here.

After going through several different variations of the mainboard he wanted to include and test Elbrus, the binding blade.

At first I was somewhat sceptical about the sword. I played SnT (Omni hybrid), BUG, Grixis, Elves, Enchantress, Goblins vs him.
Although he didn't fetch for the weapon every game, around 1/2 the time he went for it, other cases it depended on the board state where he mainly went for Sword of F&I or jitte instead.

That said, the card performed far better then I expected, moreso in the SnT matchup where he quickly had to close out the game a couple of times or I would have won the turn after. Its quite hard to deal with a 13/13 flyer.

My question towards you guys here, did any test this weapon himself ? After testing he decided that he is going to give the blade a shot at the large tournament. Its something that people don't see coming. I would like to receive feedback of others that played with this weapon and know why they decided to drop it later on.

[DarthVicious]

After going through several different variations of the mainboard he wanted to include and test Elbrus, the binding blade.

My question towards you guys here, did any test this weapon himself ? After testing he decided that he is going to give the blade a shot at the large tournament. Its something that people don't see coming. I would like to receive feedback of others that played with this weapon and know why they decided to drop it later on.

I imagine the reasons it's not regularly included are the same reasons I'm leaning away from Necropouncer right now... it's too dependent on Stoneforge being active. Pouncer isn't anywhere near as threatening as something like Elbrus or even Batterskull, however. Although, a quick search revealed a few posts from 2013 and 2015 where people tested it.

I myself am headed back in the direction of Swords, namely Feast & Famine, and Fire & Ice. I used to hate F&I just because it never did anything beyond forcing removal, but ... Spirit en-Dal has been pretty good to guarantee something connects in my testing. Forecasting it can't be countered short of something like Stifle, and removal in response doesn't prevent you from using it again next turn. Only a deck with spot discard can interact with it permanently. The only other equipment I'm currently looking at that's off-the-radar is Sword of Vengeance. Giving our fliers first strike, giving Mirran vigilance, granting haste to whatever you just dropped mainphase, and trampling over True-Names seems pretty good.

[Medea_]

Derczo finished at X-4 for 15th. I finished at X-5 for 35th. Full writeup coming later after some sleep.

@Emurian

It doesn't provide evasion. It costs 7 mana. It doesn't impact the opponent's board. It does not play well with Mirran Crusader. It does not fare well against an opposing Karakas. It doesn't fare well against StP.

[ChrisCunningham]

Derczo finished at X-4 for 15th. I finished at X-5 for 35th. Full writeup coming later after some sleep.

Please talk about the mental strain / life strain of two weekends in a row of D&T. I haven't fully recovered from Eternal Weekend, and you already played another 15 rounds.

Sorry about the day 2! :/

[Medea_]

Please talk about the mental strain / life strain of two weekends in a row of D&T. I haven't fully recovered from Eternal Weekend, and you already played another 15 rounds.

Sorry about the day 2! :/

Don't forget the 3 MTGO leagues I did over the course of the week too! I was actually going to talk about that. I think you'll find it amusing.

[redtwister]

While I have no doubt that write-ups are pending, I am curious if anyone specifically feels the lack of Sanctum Prelate and Serra Avenger for the Delver matches? TNN made quite the comeback...

The "Esper" Deathblade deck looks suspiciously similar to the anti-Czech Pile Leovold deck Paul Lynch was telling me about last week. Czech Pile was extremely absent from the Top 32.

[Medea_]

Tournament report (http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?p=1337) for SCG:DC.

[ChrisCunningham]

Tournament report (http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?p=1337) for SCG:DC.

Can we just note that the internal article ID for this page is 1337? :)

Thanks for the report!

[redtwister]

@Medead_
Thanks for the report. Looks like Sanctum Prelate would not have mattered very much, except maybe on 4 vs. Elves, whereas Serra Avenger might have been good vs. Esper Deathblade, along with (nod to ChrisCunningham) Manriki-Gusari.

I'm curious because I am tinkering with the deck for Baltimore where I am going to be the Legacy player for my team. I am running Medea_'s list except for possibly two slots main and Manriki in the side.

[Hanni]

I like your list alot, Madea. Looks very streamlined. Mirran Crusader is basically D&T's version of TNN, and is well positioned in this meta. I'd love to find room for one more Prelate in the board, and I'm a fan of Faerie Macabre since you can tutor for it, but your maindeck looks perfect to me.

[Medea_]

Can we just note that the internal article ID for this page is 1337? :)

Thanks for the report!

I got a good kick out of that myself.

@Hanni

The Deathblade list that won the open had 4 TNN, and it's no surprise that it did so well. Difficult to answer threats are a great way of attacking decks like Czech Pile, and it's the same sort of strategy I was going for.

@redtwister

I'm 4-0 against Grixis Delver since after EW with this list.

[Soryuu]

@Medea_

How do you feel about the 1x Vryn Wingmare that was the only change in Derczo's list compared to yours?

[Medea_]

It's a fine deckbuilding choice. The two cards have slightly different, but overlapping roles in many ways.

[Marungo]

It's a fine deckbuilding choice. The two cards have slightly different, but overlapping roles in many ways.

How do you board vs Delver? I also obviously think it’s a good matchup but I’m curious as to your general approach with this new list.

[Whitefaces]

Hey folks,

Is the Czech Pile matchup really extremely positive for you all? I feel like it's probably close to even. I'm sitting down to write my primer, and I'm trying to collect more data. From the Pile side, I am winning this matchup far more than I expected on MTGO. I'm winning most games that don't involve Mirran Crusader into Sword of War and Peace or the like. I have a very positive matchup against this deck personally, and I'm just trying to figure out if that's a skill gap between me and the average player of DnT. Thoughts?

[Soryuu]

It's a fine deckbuilding choice. The two cards have slightly different, but overlapping roles in many ways.

Don't mean to press you, but could you elaborate?

[Medea_]

Hey folks,

Is the Czech Pile matchup really extremely positive for you all? I feel like it's probably close to even. I'm sitting down to write my primer, and I'm trying to collect more data. From the Pile side, I am winning this matchup far more than I expected on MTGO. I'm winning most games that don't involve Mirran Crusader into Sword of War and Peace or the like. I have a very positive matchup against this deck personally, and I'm just trying to figure out if that's a skill gap between me and the average player of DnT. Thoughts?

I'm on the exact opposite side of this equation. I'm winning most of my Czech Pile matches online, thought I've geared my deck to beat it with 4x Mirran Crusader in the main. Here's what I wrote on my primer for the matchup (http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?page_id=1215):

"My personal record is quite favorable against this deck, but this matchup is probably more realistically even to slightly unfavorable for the average pilot. Splash builds with Magus of the Moon will have more “free wins” against this deck, and builds with Orzhov Pontiff can wipe most of Czech Pile’s threats with ease. Mistakes on both sides of the field are punished pretty hard in the matchup, and when you play 15 turn games, a series of less than optimal plays can add up to do serious damage to your win percentage. Czech Pile has so many removal spells that pushing damage through can be difficult once they have established control. Try not to miss points of damage, as your opponent will likely stabilize at a low life total once they gain control; the difference between a 2 and a 3 turn clock is huge when your opponent is drawing live to so many removal spells."

[AsmodeusDM]

How do you board vs Delver? I also obviously think it’s a good matchup but I’m curious as to your general approach with this new list.

I imagine you end up cutting 3 revokers for +2 Paths and then another card depending on match-up; if they are BUG or RUG delver then RiP; if it's Grixis maybe SoWaP or a surgical.

[Moctzal]

How do you board vs Delver? I also obviously think it’s a good matchup but I’m curious as to your general approach with this new list.

Medea has some matchup and sideboard guides on his site, and in particular a Grixis Delver guide:

http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?page_id=17

Bring in more removal, and take out anemic cards.

Against Grixis:

+2 Path to Exile
+2 Council's Judgment
-3 Phyrexian Revoker
-1 Recruiter of the Guard

They likely have Dread of Night post board, so I can see the argument for bringing in a Leonin Relic-Warder in exchange for the second Recruiter of the Guard, but I don't particularly like doing it.

Against RUG:
+2 Path to Exile
+2 Rest in Peace
+2 Council's Judgment
-3 Phyrexian Revoker
-1 Umezawa's Jitte
-2 Recruiter of the Guard

Remember to play around Rough // Tumble both here, and against UR.

Against UR:
+2 Path to Exile
+2 Ethersworn Canonist +2
+2 Councl's Judgment +2
-3 Phyrexian Revoker
-3 Mirran Crusader

[dnt4lyfe]

Relic-warden's best selling point is that it can be fetched by recruiter. I strongly disagree with trimining recruiters vs the delver match. As if they start playing the trade off game, were going to lose without recruiters and stoneforges. The best cards to trim in the delver match ups are mirran crusaders. The 4th thalia and mom are also good trim targets if you know they are playing 2 dreads of nights. You always want atleast 1 mirran in, but trimming down to 1 is a good option. If you're on 4 mirran's trimming 2 is a great idea. I play 2 prelates and trim down to 1 in this match up. It can be awkward, i'm playing 6 plow effects after game 1, and i want them to be live, prelate will either seal the game if i'm winning or be an awkward 3 drop if i need plows live.

[Medea_]

Bringing in Relic-Warder against Delver seems really loose. You're bringing that in for a potential 1-2 cards that may or may not be in their deck; otherwise that card is a hard-to-cast 2/2. If you want something to answer Dread of Night, why not bring in Council's Judgment that could also answer a TNN or other threat?

Recruiter is also really slow in the Delver matchup, so I don't really want that card in my deck unless I have something like Banisher Priest or Jailer that is going to serve as additional removal. We don't need to grind in the Delver matchup; we need to not die to early threats and then take over the game with higher overall card quality. Mom, Crusaders, Stoneforge, equipment... we'll get there the vast majority of the time given a few turns. Unless you are on a Vial draw, it's usually just too taxing on our resources to take a turn off to deploy Recruiter, and then another turn to deploy that card (especially if it is for a Stoneforge, which may then require another turn before being "good.").

[DarthVicious]

They likely have Dread of Night post board, so I can see the argument for bringing in a Leonin Relic-Warder in exchange for the second Recruiter of the Guard, but I don't particularly like doing it.


Cloudchaser Kestrel is a nice option for Dread that also has relevancy vs. other decks. Blows up random enchantments like Sylvan Library, Molten Vortex, Sulfuric Vortex, Omniscience... flying is good too, and it trades with Delvers. The color change is relevant vs. Eldrazi and anyone willing to run a pro-white sword, among other things I can't particularly think of right now.

[Marungo]

5-2-1 and 2nd at the Baltimore Legacy League Invitational. Only loss was twice to Dark Maverick. Really tough. Will write report tomorrow or Monday.

[dnt4lyfe]

Stalling delver decks is quite easy. Most of the delver decks in my metagame have alot of grinding packages post board. 1 ancient grudge. 2 abrades and a k command. This is why i opt for a more grind package. They are playing the longer game, aswell they do just die to double wasteland hands without drs, but they been able to out grind me a few times. Some even have snapcasters in the sb. If i were to cut my value package i would just lose to there grindy package. Espically the rug lists sideboard into more ur control with g for mongus. Tbh if i draw rip vs those decks it's over. but without rip it can be a game i need to play very carefully and i can't trade 1 for 1. i also only bring in warden if i know 100% they play 2 dreads of night. I don't brother with it if they're only on 1.

[ChrisCunningham]

Cloudchaser Kestrel is a nice option for Dread that also has relevancy vs. other decks. Blows up random enchantments like Sylvan Library, Molten Vortex, Sulfuric Vortex, Omniscience... flying is good too, and it trades with Delvers. The color change is relevant vs. Eldrazi and anyone willing to run a pro-white sword, among other things I can't particularly think of right now.

Target your Dread of Night, hold priority, make your Baleful Strix a White creature. :P

[Finn]

Target your Dread of Night, hold priority, make your Baleful Strix a White creature. :P

Actually, that is one beautiful, albeit corner-case awesome.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Beautiful. Props. Ordering 2x Japanese ones now.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

[DarthVicious]

Target your Dread of Night, hold priority, make your Baleful Strix a White creature. :P

Hell yes.

[Medea_]

Hey folks,

I'm about to do a matchup primer for UR Delver. If you have any thoughts on the matchup (sideboarding, matchup percentages, tips and tricks), I'd love to hear them.

[Eldrazi Grandfather]

VS UR delver is usually 60/40 for us in g1 and 40/60 post side (smash to smithereens can be devastating, and rough/tumble is very annoying).
With mono w build I board in 2x canonist, 2x council (nemesis, sulfuric vontex), 2x path to exile, 1 prelate and side out 1x jailer, 2x revoker, 2x crusader, 2x recruiter.

Best cards: stp, prelate, mother, thalia, jitte, batterskull
Worst cards; mirran crusader, revoker, jailer

My list:

3 Karakas
4 Rishadan port
4 Wasteland
10 Plains
2 Cavern of souls
4 Aether vial
4 Swords to plowshares
1 Umezawa's jitte
1 Sword of fire and ice
1 Batterskull
4 Mother of runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, guardian of Thraben
1 Serra avenger
3 Phyrexian revoker
2 Recruiter of the guard
2 Mirran crusader
4 Flickerwisp
1 Sanctum prelate
1 Palace jailer

2 Ethersworn canonist
1 Sword of light and shadow
2 Rest in peace
2 Path to exile
1 Sanctum prelate
2 Council's judgment
2 Gideon, ally of Zendikar
1 Cataclysm
2 Containment priest

[Marungo]

Part One: Annoying Backstory

So here I will be writing my report of finishing second at the local Baltimore Legacy League Invitational. It's important to give a little bit of backstory to this tournament before I get into how the tournament went. Not surprisingly, it all began back at Eternal Weekend.

So I went to EW with a relatively boring and stock list. 1 Cavern, 1 Canopy, 1 Avenger, 1 Spirit of the Labyrinth, and everything else rather stock. Sideboard I did include a Palace Jailer, but the rest was rather bland and stock and my result followed suit. I went an anemic 3-4 losing to Manaless Dredge, Turbo Depths, Miracles, and Food Chain. The loss to Manaless was really just bad luck games 2 and 3, but it was the losses to Miracles and Depths that frustrated me. I couldn't beat the endless stream of plows and UA from Miracles and Depths turn 2'd me and turn 4'd me with the latter involving 2 pithing needles on Waste and Karakas followed by Hex Depths. But what can be done?

The real important takeaways were the following: 1) I didn't like Spirit right now and actively hated Serra Avenger as I have for a while. 2) I now had to begin planning for the Invitational since I wasn't gonna be able to make the SCG event. 3) Phil had come out with a new list that I could get behind and back it up with results.

His list can be seen here in this article: http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?p=1318

I have always loved Crusader and hated Avenger. I always found Serra Avenger good vs Delver and True-Name decks and otherwise sub-optimal in every other way. It's not even easy to cast if you play 2 Cavern of Souls since you really want to set them on Human. The fact that Phil went 9-2 also showed how good it may be right now and I didn't mind shoring up the Czech Pile matchup. The other card I liked was the sideboard SoWaP, a card I always liked and had served me well but had fallen out of favor. Though I wish he had gone more in depth on the matchups he liked it and why he felt it was particularly good right now, I was intrigued and excited to play the card.

I took Phil's 75 to a weekly and although I went 3-1 and loved the Crusaders, I didn't like 11 3-drops and I didn't love the second Cavern. I definitely got lucky to beat one of the two elves players that I did. Through testing I had decided to take out the 4th Crusader for a Spirit cause I wanted another 2-drop. In the sideboard I had moved to a pithing needle to improve the mirror and depths matchup and as a little insurance vs. Lands and Stoneblade. I moved away from Gideon which I found mainly good vs. Czech Pile and pretty medium elsewhere. Although I went 2-2 next week the losses were my own mistake not the deck. I liked the curve main, but now it was time to purely focus on the invitational.

This is what I came up with:
Main:
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Mother of Runes
4 Flickerwisp
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Mirran Crusader
2 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Serra Avenger

4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

11 Plains
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas

Side:
3 Path to Exile
2 Rest in Peace
2 Council's Judgment
2 Pithing Needle
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Containment Priest
1 Sword of War and Peace
1 Seal of Cleansing

Alright I got a lot to explain with this list without boring you to tears. Basically I knew the meta was gonna have a lot of Lands. It was an 18 player tournament that I thought would have 3 lands players. I was wrong, there were 4. I also expected some other DNT players, at least one Elves player, my brother on Moat Miracles, our friend and another player on Grixis Delver, and likely 2 Czech Pile players. Overall, my meta calls were really close to what I expected. The only surprises were no Elves players, one Infect player, and one less DNT in exchange for Junk Maverick. You can figure based on my expectations why I made the deck the way I did.

The last thing I want to express before I get to the actual event report is why I took this so seriously. For one, I had not had a lot of success with DNT for several weeks until I tested the Crusader heavy build and I was excited to play the deck again even after a relatively minor change. Second, winner got $200 and who doesn't like a little money? And third, I wanted to represent the Baltimore Legacy Community and be the first league winner. The league has already gotten a lot of people into and interested in legacy and to win the event would be a great success for me and hopefully allow me to influence more people to play.

Part Two: The Event

We show up bright and early Saturday morning. The event, though small, had a lot of good players including the likes of Paul Lynch and Kevin King and a host of other really good players. 5 rounds, cut to top 8, play-draw in top 8, time to go.

Round 1: vs. Naya Maverick (W) (2-1) (Tyrik)
League organizer and all around great guy Tyrik was my first round opponent. A theme began as I mulliganed to 5 game one and had 5 threats answered before TK's better creatures eventually overwhelmed me.
Game two pretty much came down to arifact removal. I had a Flickerwisp and he had some mana dorks. He used 2 pridemages and a green sun's for Reclamation Sage to blow up 2 Vials and a SoFaI. It was all a build-up to my SoWaP which the Wisp grabbed and in a 3-turn period rode to victory.
Game 3 was long, I recall that. I remember having plows and paths to answer his Knight of the Reliquaries that he kept tutoring, but I had no creature to apply pressure. I believe that eventually I found a Stoneforge then a Crusader but I'd be lying if I said I knew for sure. I just remember this being a stressful seesaw match-up that I barely scraped out.
(1-0)

Round 2: vs. Grixis Delver (W) (2-0) (Ted)
Ted is one of my best friends and someone who has come a long way in his ability to play the game. We had jammed this match hundreds of times and this was just another. I won the die roll and kind of just did the DNT thing. I put out a Thalia, a Crusader, and Flickerwisps to threaten and put him on the backfoot making sure to answer Pyromancer since Ted runs a 4 Cabal Therapy build and that card gets out of hand fast. I end up just attacking thrice with a Flickerwisp when Ted had expended his answers.
Game two was a SLOG. I ended the game with something like 14 lands in play. Ted probes me and sees the opener I kept was path, path, Judgment, Judgment, plowshares and 2 lands. I cannot stick a threat but neither can he. At the end of the game 3 Delvers and 3 Pyromancers had been exiled, 2 Volcs and an Underground Sea had been wasted and I was porting Ted's remaining Volcanic Island every upkeep. At the end of the day I won with Batterskull looping but to be fair Ted misplayed. I played Batterskull empy handed with like 7 mana up and felt real good about my position. Then Ted cast his sideboard K-Command and I was in trouble... until he said, shatter/shock me and not shatter/discard. I rode the skull to victory. To be fair I had a Thalia, Wisp, and Sword on top and a Karakas on the field so I don't believe he was winning either way, but it was still a major bummer for him
(2-0)

Round 3: vs. Lands (W) (2-0) (Rory)
Rory, much like everyone who was there, is awesome. He also admitted I likely had more reps in the matchup than him which is true because my brother used to be a blue lands player and would smash me a ton. This match was way easier by comparison. Game one I play a vial and do... nothing. For like 5 turns. Just some porting, some wasting, etc. Eventually I get a mom out and vial in Recuiter. I get a Flickerwisp chain going and all the while have Wasteland and Karakas up. I also sandbagged a second Karakas and ended the Wisp chain by grabbing Prelate on 2. Since he had pitched the Molten Vortex to gamble earlier, the game was pretty simple after that.
Game two was way worse for Rory. He mulliganed down to 5 and I just pounced with threats. Eventually he lands Chasm but there's not saving the situation and Rest in Peace, though only on the board for a bit, did a ton of damage to a mull to 5.
(3-0)

Round 4: vs. Burn (ID) (Adam)
Adam and I both play at the same store. The league involves players from two stores, MTGFirst, and Titan. Adam and I being friends, Titan players, and hungry, agree to draw and lock up top 8.
(3-0-1)

Round 5: vs. Junk Maverick (L) (1-2) (Brian(not my brother))
I had a friend still playing for top 8 dreams and I wanted to help him out knowing a 9-pointer would get kicked out. I respectfully declined the draw and admitted I was unlikely to win here. Game one though he goes down to 5 and a hand of mana dorks, Sylvan Safekeeper, and mom loses to a Wisp holding a Sword and a Jitte.
Game two I realize how prepared his deck is for the matchup and how good his sideboard is. I have a board of Recruiter and mom and vial out Wisp to try and generate advantage vs. a freshly played Knight of the Reliquary with a mom. Then I get ZP'd into the next century. Yeah was not expecting that. I lose in short order.
Game 3 is a long game again. I get him to 12 I believe but he beats me much lower with Knights and Sword equipped things. I had boarded in Rest in Peace and it did some good work on the Deathrites and Knights, but it looks like I'm done for until I find Crusader, then a second Crusader. For a moment, I actually think I might win, but eventually a stoneforge grabs a SoFaI and Brian is able to cobble together 3 attackers to my two blockers as his early game advantage pays dividends.
(3-1-1)
The main thing to note here, the matchup does not feel favorable (inb4 someone says it's very favorable and easy) and I don't know how to sideboard. This comes back later

We take a top 8 picture and I am the 4th seed heading in paired once again vs. Rory.
Quarterfinals: vs. Lands (W) (2-1)
Rory jokes that he has to go look up on Google how he is supposed to beat me in the matchup and we all laugh. Game one he crushes me though. He has Loam, Exploration, Molten Vortex, Maze of Ith, and I mulliganed which I had been doing a lot of throughout the tournament. He just steamrolls me and I get to see that he has Barbarian ring.
Game two is Rory's time to mulligan and he has no Exploration. He has a Loam which gets chewed up by a RIP and Thalia provides a major thorn for him. The real MVP here was SoWaP, which deals roughly 10 damage over two hits by itself. Rory doesn't have time to stabilize and I have tons of answers to Marit Leige even if he did.
Before I mention game three I wanted to highlight how confident I am in this matchup. I don't remember the last time I lost to it post board. Obviously the player and the composition of the deck matter, but it's really good. So it was funny to hear my brother speculate it is 55-45 Lands, maybe 50-50 post-board.
Game three empahsizes how good the matchup is. Again Rory mulligans and has no turn one or turn two play. I get a board together of Revokers on Mox Diamond and Molten Vortex respectively, Mom, Prelate on 2, and Flickerwisp. The moment when it became clear how good the situation was for me was when Rory was looking through his graveyard, paused, then said, “I don't know how I'm supposed to even get the game to a point where I can kill you!” We all laughed. Rory actually had some good plays left involving Barbarian Ring killing Prelate allowing him to unlock Life from the Loam and utilizing Maze of Ith to diminish to assault slightly. However, I draw a Flickerwisp with him at 4, Flicker the Maze, and send in with 2 Revokers and a Serra Avenger for lethal even through a P-Fire.
(4-1-1)

Semifinals: vs. Smallpox (W) (2-0) (Devon)
Devon is a local Titan player who plays only Smallpox. The other match was a battle of two MTGFirst players playing a Maverick mirror with TK and Brian. As such the finals was set to be a Titan vs. MTGFirst, no-blue affair. Legacy is a beautiful thing. Devon was the 8th seed coming off of an upset on Adam playing Burn. He somehow won Game one on a mulligan to 4. We had played before in weeklies and he crushed me so I was less than confident.
He keeps seven, I mull to 5. “No surprises here.” I say. I wasn't complaining, honestly, just found it funny. I keep a vial hand, but he wastes my second land and has a Gravecrawler for pressure. The turning point is when he casts Hymn to Tourach. I have a Vial on 3 and a Plains, and a Recruiter, Jitte, and Revoker in hand. I tank. Finally I decide to Recruit for Crusader and run the risk. I get away with it and keep the Crusader. The Crusader does not win me the game, but it makes him have to use his Cabal Pit to answer it. My 2 draws after that were Karakas and Stoneforge Mystic. I grab a Batterskull and he uses Wasteland to try and keep me off 2 mana. I draw a Plains and land Batterskull and ride it to victory to steal game one.
Game 2 is less exciting. He mulligans to 6 while I keep a 7 that has Prelate, Judgment, Path, Batterskull, lands. I frown at the Prelate wondering why I left it in. His mulligan is subpar and after agonizing over the scry, he bottoms and IOK's me. He takes Prelate. Card might be better than I thought. I immediately draw a vial and all he has is lands and passing of the turn. Eventually I land a Thalia and he slips up and plays a Dread Wanderer and tries to follow up on Smallpox when someone points out he has to pay 3 for that when he only has 3 lands. I endstep vial out Stoneforge and tutor up Jitte and one turn later he scoops.
(5-1-1)

Finals: vs. Junk Maverick (L) (0-2) (Brian again)
I was really excited. I wanted to win this tournament and this was that opportunity. I mulligan to 6 and we are underway. Game one is an awesome 35-minute affair. We're both playing really tight. He eventually gets 2 Knight of the Reliquaries a Scavenging Ooze, a Mother of Runes and a Noble Hierarch. I have a Mother of Runes, a Flickerwisp, a Batterskull, and a Stoneforge Mystic. 2 of my Mirran Crusaders had gotten Swords to Plowshared and the board was stalled. He eventually found a trump for my Flickerwisp that had a Batterskull by using a Wasteland on my Wasteland so he could Knight up the Dark Depths and team it with the stage to make Marit Leige. I have roughly a 7 outer here. He has a deathrite shaman, an Ooze and 3 green mana, putting him at a vitural 11. If I draw Sword of Fire and Ice, one of my 3 Karakas, or one of my 3 Wisps left, I win. I can answer the Marit Leige and don't have to use mom to give protection... I draw Stoneforge. Daggers. I last one more turn, chumping 10/10 Knights before dying.
Game 2 is less exciting. I'm fairly certain I boarded wrong, and I keep a 2 colorless land, double vial hand. He answers the threats, gets a Jitte equipped, 2-for-1's me with a ZP eating Wisp and Rectuiter, and rides it on home. And with that, it was over. I smile and extend the hand and congratulate Brian who is a really nice guy, but I was crushed.
(5-2-1)

Part 3: Aftermath
When I do poorly at a big event it's whatever for me personally. I can't prepare for everything and I know I am a good player and no longer need results to verify this fact for me. But this was a small tournament I had prepared for, that I had anticipated 95% correctly, that I really wanted to win and represent the small league. It was a bummer. All that being said though I am really happy with the result.

Top 4 split prize so I got $150 which was nice. My brother and Ted who did not fair as well were really supportive. All-in-all a long, but tiring day.

Going forward with DNT, I love Crusader and still hate Serra Avenger... but I can't bring myself to play 11 3-drops. I also really liked cutting the 2nd Cavern. Initially I did it because Lands was gonna be huge at the Invitational, but I have never loved the 2 Cavern builds so I will stick with that. I also really liked the 3 paths which were also a meta call for the # of DNT and Delver decks I expected but found myself liking in general moving forward.

My board right now would be:
3 Path to Exile
2 Rest in Peace
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Council's Judgment
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar (trying to sure up those fair matchups though this card feels “meh” all-in-all I don't know what else would fit)
2 Containment Priest
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sword of War and Peace

Overall I haven't liked the Surgical Extractions for a while. There is very little Reanimator and combo running around here and it can be rather medium vs. combo. Is this correct? Should I play more combo hate? Is there a better card than Gideon? I dunno. But this is where I am right now.

Sorry if this huge post is disruptive. Just wanted to write down my thoughts on the event and the deck and I figured it might serve as some form of discussion here, so I decided to post it all up.

[Medea_]

@Marungo

That was a great writeup. Thanks for taking the time to do it.

SoWaP is something that comes in against any StP deck (Stoneblade, D&T, Maverick), control decks (Miracles, Czech Pile), Loam/Punishing Fire decks (Lands, 4c Loam), Burn, and most cantrip-based combo decks (e.g. Sneak and Show). It's got other applications, but those are some of the big ones.

Going down one piece of graveyard hate is reasonable. I don't know if that's smart for your location though, seeing as you're in a sea of Lands.

I can understand not liking Gideon. In my initial testing after the card came out, I was really not impressed. In the games where you are behind on board, sometimes he just makes a token, the token eats a removal spell, and then they attack Gideon and he dies. Those games don't feel good, but in those sorts of situations, what is getting you out of it anyway? Yet, there are tons of other games where landing a Gideon on an empty board or a relatively even board just completely warps the game around him. He threatens a huge amount of damage while serving lots of different functions: Dread of Night counter, chump blocker producer, grinding through opposing removal, immediate emblem for "haste" damage... It's a very versatile card, and it's that versatility that has given him semi-permanent slots in my deck.

If you aren't liking Gideon, maybe try out Elspeth? I've been meaning to revisit her in these Crusader-heavy lists, but haven't gotten around to it. In the past, jumping Crusaders over TNN felt pretty good, but I don't know how the card will fare right now.

[Mannaus]

Yes Marungo, thank you very much for the detailed tournament report. Had a lot of fun reading it, and it also came up with a bunch of interesting questions on DnT in the actual metagame.

I actually have had a few issues playing the Maverick matchup as well. I am not experimented in the matchup, and it seems like it's getting some serious presence again. If some of you have tips on sideboarding and general handling of the matchup, it would be greatly appreciated.

I myself tend to sideboard like this:

+ 2 Council Judgements
+ 2 Path to Exile
+ 2 RiP
- 2 Sanctum Prelate | maybe he's good, but I only want him on 1, and the big deal is getting rid of Mom's in early game. So I probably prefer 6 spot removals, but it's discussable.
- 4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben | I don't know if this is a good choice, but I always feel like if she's not there exactly on turn 2, she tends to tax my own spells a little bit too much.

I am on a Wb version, splashing for 1 Orzhov Pontiff (and 1 in side) and 1 dark Confidant main. Maybe this splash makes this matchup much worse, since I don't play Serra's and only 1 Mirran.

I considered not siding in Path to Exile, keeping 1 Sanctum and boarding in the 2nd Prelate, to give me a stronger grip starting turn 3, with Prelate on 1 and Pontiff's taking care of my opponent's Mom. It seems more like a DeathandTaxing strategy, but relies on Vial and Recruiter to be optimal. And the problem then is handling the Knights, but with RiP, CJ's, revokers and equipment, it seems doable.


Any comments and tips are more than welcome

[dnt4lyfe]

I have always felt that gideon wasn't needed in the sb. The midrange match ups i've never found to difficult. Catcacslym feels really good right now. I usally play it with magus of the moon. 4c and other midrange decks will fetch all their basics vs us. I blow the basics and walkers up with catca and than tutor for the magus and fuck them. Atm i would just run double catca's in the sb or maybe an elspeth. I really like the idea of elspeth atm, due to a 4 mirran list i am running. If you want to sure up your midrange match ups. Giest of saint tariff with Karakas. I've done really stupid but fun things, such as run 2 leovold's in the sb. Turns out no fair deck can beat dnt when u have leovold+ karakas/mom.

[Medea_]

Just to preemptively stop some PMs... Due to a hardware issue on my provider's end, my website is likely to be down for a few days.

[Bryant Cook]

Just to preemptively stop some PMs... Due to a hardware issue on my provider's end, my website is likely to be down for a few days.

Phew, I was worried.

[jdc5011]

Went 3-0-1 at my lgs Thursday night with a pretty stock list. (1 cavern 1 canopy 3 crusader 0 avenger). Beat burn twice (no real contest once skull or jitte was online) followed by a slug fest with 4c Pile. Crusader was a House game 1 and Jace drew 10+ cards for him game 2. Game 3 he couldn’t answer Thalia and I jammed Gideon while he was tapped out so no force (not sure if he even left forces in). Gideon was backbreaking. Drew with lands 1-1-1 although he probably wins game 3 if we don’t run out of time. He had turn 1 vortex with pf backup so I couldn’t safely revoker or prelate. It was rough.

So far I’ve been pretty lucky against our local Pile player. Not sure if this is a favorable matchup pre or post board. Aside from edicts I don’t think there’s an answer for a resolved crusader but I felt like it was still a technical matchup. What do you guys bring in against Pile? Also I Sont know how we beat lands game 1. I played the deck a while back but took a break for a while to play other things so I’m not super familiar with the 3 drop heavy builds right now. Is cataclysm worth a SB slot or 2 still?

[JacobRoberts]

I'm wondering why people are still running Sanctum Prelate? I've always adjusted my evaluation of the card to be higher than my experiences because the overall community seems to like it, but I recently got around to making an account here so I'd figure I'd ask why. The way I see it, prelate comes down too late to be relevant against most combo decks, and most fair decks have removal at a variety of CMC, so it is usually just removed without making an impact. I like it in a pretty small set of matchups: pfire decks to shut off pfire, omnitell because d&t lock pieces don't line up very well vs omniscience, and grixis delver, but it's ineffective in combat, prone to daze, and they usually have 2+ cmc removal post board.

I'm personally running 0 main and 1 side, and even then find myself over-siding it and drawing it in situations where it's ineffective. Last time I saw Bahra streaming he didn't have a prelate either, not even in the sideboard, because he found it to be only effective against lands. Do other people actively like prelate? Or is it mostly being included out of momentum?

[Eldrazi Grandfather]

Prelate is a hell of card against lands, grixis delver, ur delver, burn, s & t, ant, aggroloam, miracles and tezzerator and is ok vs aluren and uw/uwr blade.
I play 1 maindeck and 1 in side, and I' m feel naked without her :-)

[dnt4lyfe]

came second at a local today. I went into today making a meta call i would be playing alot of fair decks. I did i only played combo once
the match ups were

miracles 2-1
bug delver 2-1
esper mentor 1-2 (i fucked up i threw this match making a critical mistake game 2 while up a game)
2-1 imperial taxes
shardless bug.

Lands: (23)
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Karakas
9 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

Creatures: (26)
4 Flickerwisp
3 Mirran Crusader
4 Mother of Runes
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Sanctum Prelate
2 Serra Avenger
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

Non-Creature Spells: (11)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Sword of war and peace
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa’s Jitte

Sideboard: (15)
2 Containment Priest
2 Council’s Judgment
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Sword of light and shadow
1 Batterskull
1 Mirran crusader
3 Path to Exile
2 Rest in Peace

Miracles. I felt bad war and peace is just brutal in this match. The agressive as worth it. it was a werid game 3. I just killed everything they played and won via playing superior control.

round 2 bug delver.

This match ups is just super easy i have 3 paths and 2 council's judgment in the sb. My meta has alot of delver so i went with 3 paths in the sb, just to crush them. Game 1 i just played mirran beats u. Game 2 i lost to a tomb stalker, i drew 0 removal even though i had 9. Game 3 i basically drew an autp win. Vial double stonefoge double plow and mom. It was the easiest game of the day

round 3.

War and peace and a agressive draw crushed the mentor player. Thalia and mirran's are just hard to beat. Game 2 i had a chance to equip light and shadow to thalia. But instead i cj'd the liliana of the last hope. Thinking it could kill the thalia. Forgetting not only would thalia have pro black. It would of been a 4/3. If i had equipted the solas. He had no way to beat it.

round 4 Imperial taxes.

My opponents first time playing dnt. I lost game 1 to a mul to 4. Game 2 and 3 my superior knowledge of the match up, and frankley the amount of better cards i had in the match up just crushed him.

round 5 -Id

Finals.

storm 2-0

War and peace actually crushed the storm player both games. Game 1 it just was too fast of a clock with life gain for him to deal with. He had a slow hand i got hate bears into play. Game 2 was interesting. It went for about 20 turns o was holding up double vial with recruiters. Threating to recruit for ethersworn and vial it in. To blow out his combo. He had removal in hand but enough. At the end of turn at a late point in the game i recruitered for stoneforge. put it into play got a war and peace. sowp is pretty good when both players have filled hands.

Dragon stompy. 2-0

This wasn't really a match game 1 they mulled to 5 with nothing to do. Game 2 at one point they had 0 permnants in play and 0 cards in hand. It was funny the situation was he had 2 chrome mox, 1 bottled city, and a city. I cj'd the bottle to get rid of his hand permantely. revoked his chrome mox and wastelanded his city.

finals vs 4c control.

My deck was designed to crush this match up and i was pretty happy with how it preformed it crushed him game 1. Game 2 and 3 i just lost to dnt being dnt. Mulled to 5 both games. The first game i drew all 3 drops and no 3rd land. Including all 3 swords and the batterskull. I knew this was a weakness of playing eqiupment heavily builds but i thought the risk was worth the reward. Game 3 was a very long game but he drew a play set of baleful strix at one point.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Prelate is a hell of card against lands, grixis delver, ur delver, burn, s & t, ant, aggroloam, miracles and tezzerator and is ok vs aluren and uw/uwr blade.
I play 1 maindeck and 1 in side, and I' m feel naked without her :-)This, but also that she is absolutely not too slow. Turn 2 Thalia makes her better, and even if you have to Recruiter for her, she's still really good turn 4. Maybe you are using your resources differently?

What combo, specifically, are you thinking she is too slow to be of use for?

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

[JacobRoberts]

Prelate is a hell of card against lands, grixis delver, ur delver, burn, s & t, ant, aggroloam, miracles and tezzerator and is ok vs aluren and uw/uwr blade.

I don't think the card matters very much vs ant. Game 1 is decided by whether you can land a t2 hatebear or not before they kill you. Post-board matches are usually a little slower and you can use prelate to "protect" a 2 mana hatebear, but that just goes to show that I'd rather have any 2 mana hate piece. Also, what do you try to shut off? Massacre? Chain of vapor / fatal push / dread of night? Echoing truth / abrupt decay / pyroclasm? It's impossible to say unless you already know your opponent, so it's likely you just play a vanilla 2/2.

Burn has a majority of its spells at CMC 1, but then you don't get to shut off equipment removal and searing effects, which are the most impactful spells. Plus it's not very good when you're being beaten down by creatures. So I'd rather have it in my deck than not vs burn, but it has a high fail rate.

UW snapcaster decks generally aren't impacted much by prelate from my perspective in games. Probably because their deck allows them to play well and gain small edges to be prepared for prelate when it comes. There are ways for us to try to get it in at optimal times, but we're generally playing from behind in these matchups so the best line usually ends up being "slam prelate and pray". It doesn't present a clock and doesn't keep them off their "turn the corner" cards. I still board it in vs miracles because sometimes it's nice to have vs terminus, but it's not a card I would miss having if it was out of my 75 entirely.


What combo, specifically, are you thinking she is too slow to be of use for?

ANT/TES and reanimator mainly. It's good vs s&t, but unless they're specifically on omnitell, I don't really care much about having prelate because the rest of the deck lines up so well anyway. On the flipside, are there combo decks that see play it is actually useful against?

So a lot of this post is essentially me saying that prelate is generically ok vs a lot of decks, but only good vs a small number of decks. Is that more in line with what other people experience? I used this logic to play prelate in the main for a while, but just kept finding that "generically ok" was not good enough for prelate.

[dnt4lyfe]

If prelate is too slow for ant/tes you're going to lose anyway. You need to drop a turn 2 hatebear vs storm or you're basically. Dead game 1 curving out turn 2 hate into turn 3 prelate will make them lose on the spot. Most show and tell decks are on the omniscience package and you're going to want prelate vs those builds. I've had some games vs storm were i just attacked there mana base game and turn 4 vial'd in prelate. It won although i don't reccomand attacking there mana base as a solid apporach. I just happen to have no idea what i was playing and had vial port wasteland hand on the play. Reanimator prelate is useless anyway. But thats not a hard match up to win.

prelate is good in nearly all match ups.

[Medea_]

Prelate is super-necessary for the Loam/Punishing Fire matchups, and does wonders as a support card in various combo matchups. Otherwise, it's a decisively average card. Sometimes you draw it naturally and just "get" your opponent when they are on a fair deck like Delver, but it's not always going to feel like that. These days decks like Czech Pile run a varied removal suite over multiple CMCs, so it's not like you can lock them out with it. That being said, it is well-worth a slot in the 75.

[WashableWater1]

Prelate is super-necessary for the Loam/Punishing Fire matchups, and does wonders as a support card in various combo matchups. Otherwise, it's a decisively average card. Sometimes you draw it naturally and just "get" your opponent when they are on a fair deck like Delver, but it's not always going to feel like that. These days decks like Czech Pile run a varied removal suite over multiple CMCs, so it's not like you can lock them out with it. That being said, it is well-worth a slot in the 75.

I would add that even in the games against Delver when you drop a Prelate on 1, sometimes it’s turn 3 and they’re clocking you enough that it does nothing. I’ve had more games than I’d like to admit when Prelate was just a Gurmag Angler roadblock. I’m running the 1/1 split, how are people feeling about that now?

[ChrisCunningham]

Prelate is super-necessary for the Loam/Punishing Fire matchups, and does wonders as a support card in various combo matchups. Otherwise, it's a decisively average card. Sometimes you draw it naturally and just "get" your opponent when they are on a fair deck like Delver, but it's not always going to feel like that. These days decks like Czech Pile run a varied removal suite over multiple CMCs, so it's not like you can lock them out with it. That being said, it is well-worth a slot in the 75.

Quality Lands players are maindecking Barbarian Ring now, and I don't think we can win the long game vs them without RiP. They recognize that if they have Loam, their next Gamble target is Barbarian Ring (not Punishing Fire) and Loam + Ring is much more devastating to us than Loam + PFire anyway. So while I agree that Prelate is useful, it's really not enough to win a long game 1, and so I'm not sure it's good enough for the maindeck anymore. I guess it's still probably a lock against the Aggro Loam deck that doesn't have room for Barbarian Ring. That doesn't seem like it is worth a maindeck slot.

Are you actually beating Lands game 1 with eventually-draw-Recruiter -> fetch Prelate -> ??? You can't even protect Prelate with Vial+Flickerwisp, because they activate Ring, you save the Prelate with Flickerwisp, and then their Loam is turned back on, so they get the ring back and do this forever until you are out of things to do. It feels to me like we have to embrace the fact that our lock pieces aren't that relevant in the truly long game of this matchup, which is another reason the 4x Mirran Crusader build is a good place to go.

[Stevestamopz]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VKCVVEC24w

Some quality footage for you to all enjoy (I'm not biased at all), the finals of one of our local sanctioned events: DnT vs Pile.

I'm curious as to what you all think about the boarding plan/deck plan of having 5 equipment postboard against pile for this matchup.

[iatee]

Are you actually beating Lands game 1 with eventually-draw-Recruiter -> fetch Prelate -> ??? You can't even protect Prelate with Vial+Flickerwisp, because they activate Ring, you save the Prelate with Flickerwisp, and then their Loam is turned back on, so they get the ring back and do this forever until you are out of things to do. It feels to me like we have to embrace the fact that our lock pieces aren't that relevant in the truly long game of this matchup, which is another reason the 4x Mirran Crusader build is a good place to go.

'They might have answers' is not a good reason to drop a card that wins on the spot if they don't have answers - and they often don't. Their one-of Barbarian Ring both requires them to have found it in time + to already have or be close to Threshold, since they aren't Loaming anymore when Prelate's in play. SoFi can also protect Prelate g1 for the hard-lock. In practice I have not found their Barbarian Ring to be very threatening - finding it and getting it online requires dedicating a lot of resources to that plan, and if you have SoFi or RiP (or, ideally, Magus of the Moon) it doesn't even matter.

Mirran Crusader also dies to Barbarian Ring (and Punishing Fire) and provides no ETB or taxing effect along the way. If Lands' entire game plan is forced to be 'I need to find a way to kill Prelate' you have a million turns to work with. If they just have to kill a thing that dies to all their removal and doesn't disrupt their game at all, you don't.

[Mad Mat]

Quality Lands players are maindecking Barbarian Ring now, and I don't think we can win the long game vs them without RiP. They recognize that if they have Loam, their next Gamble target is Barbarian Ring (not Punishing Fire) and Loam + Ring is much more devastating to us than Loam + PFire anyway. So while I agree that Prelate is useful, it's really not enough to win a long game 1, and so I'm not sure it's good enough for the maindeck anymore. I guess it's still probably a lock against the Aggro Loam deck that doesn't have room for Barbarian Ring. That doesn't seem like it is worth a maindeck slot.
Even with RiP we lose the long game against lands, because they have more removal for it than we have RiP's to bring in and are more likely to find their answers than we are to find RiP. The match-up still revolves around beating them to death as fast as possible while disrupting them with relevant hatebears and mana denial. Prelate is one of the most important hatebears for this as it shuts down two of their main (and the most powerful) engines. They can solve it with ring, but that requires them to find ring, which slows down their other plans and is a serious investment of mana and land drops. They don't always have Exploration or Manabond and, if they do, it's even less likely that they have that as well as loam AND a quick way to find ring and get it safely in hand. If they warp their gameplan towards ring, that's another high impact land they're not trying to find against us, like Tabernacle, Maze or the combo. They do have plenty of outs to our answers to Marit Lage other than vial on 3 + wisp (and plow, but a resolved plow also makes it almost impossible for us to still win through that amount of life gain).

I think any standard or semi-standard d&t list should run 2 prelates in the 75, probably with the 1-1 split being the best. The card is just that damn good in way too many match-ups. Even if they have answers to it, they need to have them at hand and/or may be forced to use them less efficiently than they might want, like a Jace bounce or a single shot Explosives. It's not just loam/fire, the card is also very important against miracles, burn, enchantress, elves, show and tell, dragon stompy... It's worth noting that in most match-ups, it's actually harder for the opponent to kill than mirran crusader.


Are you actually beating Lands game 1 with eventually-draw-Recruiter -> fetch Prelate -> ??? You can't even protect Prelate with Vial+Flickerwisp, because they activate Ring, you save the Prelate with Flickerwisp, and then their Loam is turned back on, so they get the ring back and do this forever until you are out of things to do. It feels to me like we have to embrace the fact that our lock pieces aren't that relevant in the truly long game of this matchup, which is another reason the 4x Mirran Crusader build is a good place to go.
It ups the clock, but makes the risk much higher that they can play a non-interactive game and just combo or mana denial-win. Mirran Crusader is about as good a card in the lands match-up as it is in the miracles match-up. Which is to say, pretty meh.

[redtwister]

@iatee
Are you even running Sanctum Prelate in your Wr build? I thought your out to Lands was just Magus.

[Marungo]

@iatee
Are you even running Sanctum Prelate in your Wr build? I thought your out to Lands was just Magus.

He was at EE. If his list hasn’t changed he’s been running one maindeck for a while.

[iatee]

Yes I am. Magus is stronger if they don't have Fire (or you have protection), Prelate better if they do. If you're playing both...you really don't lose to Lands very often. There's just too much they need to fight through.

[redtwister]

Ah, I was referencing the list Bahra used with you as his guest, there were none in the list on the video. Maybe the Vryn Wingmare was there in it's place? Never mind, it was Rest In Peace.

Did you go back to Prelate?

I think the only difference with my list is that I like Mirran Crusader main and Palace Jailer in the side, but otherwise I am running your list at the Baltimore Team event. I have really enjoyed it.

[iatee]

Yeah, swapping Crusader and Jailer seems reasonable, the tutorboard is always a meta call.

[Mannaus]

Hello everybody,

Went 2-2 in a 12-players Legacy weekly yesterday evening, preparing for a big regional event on Sunday.

Here's my list:



// 23 Lands

4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Karakas
2 Cavern of Souls
7 Plains
2 Marsh Flats
1 Scrubland

//7 Artifacts

4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa’s Jitte

// 4 Spells

4 Swords to Plowshares

// 26 Creatures

4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Mother of Runes
4 Flickerwisp
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Sanctum Prelate
1 Dark Confidant
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Orzhov Pontiff


// 15 Sideboard Cards

2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Cannonist
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Sword of War and Peace
1 Pithing Needle
2 Rest in Peace
2 Path to Exile
2 Council’s Judgement
1 Orzhov Pontiff



I play the black splash, as I find it the most appropriated solution to answering the meta right now. Orzhov deals quite efficiently with TNN, Strix and other Pyromancer's tokens and the 1 off Bob is there to create card advantage in grindy matchups, like versus Czech Pile or UW control.

Game 1 vs Esper Delver (1-2)

I almost never practiced this matchup, so it felt a little ambiguous.
Game 1, I just outpowered his Delver play with Flicker chains and Thalia taxing his cantrips. Game 2 I didn't know how to side precisely. Since he's on 4 Delver, 2 Gurmag, 2 TNN, I was not sure what to enter or to side out. I remember hesitating to enter Path to Exile, Council Judgements, a second orzhov, SWP, needle? I don't really know what threats we have to answer and what cards we don't need main. Bob was the only clear pick.
Game 2 he steamrolled me, getting out much faster, and instauring a board state that was not managable anymore. One more time, I felt the drawback not having a starting hand with Vial in the Delver matchups.
Game 3 I figured out I'd try a keep with Karakas, a plain, Vial and 4 creatures (Thalia and 3 3CMC). I got punished by t1 pithing on Vial and t2 Wasteland on Karakas, and then he just overpowered me with threats, with me not drawing any land. Turns out Gurmag and Delver's are probably threats that must be answered first, maybe prioritzing it over SFM fetching equipment and an TNN online. I don't know. This loss is most probably due to my lack of knowledge in the matchup. With death and taxes, this hardly ever forgives, and I did a few suboptimal decisions (particulary in sideboarding and mull decisions) that cost me the game.

Game 2 vs UW Control (2-0)
I was very happy with this win. My opponent was one of the best Legacy players we have around, and it seems a difficult matchup for DnT, probably more difficult than Top Miracle. Anyway, I had a very good hand game 1, tempoing him out old-fashioned style, with Thalia protected by Karakas, Vial on 2 and regularly getting threats on the board. Post-board, Sword of War and Peace was game-breaking, with Sanctum Prelate as a 2 off in the deck also very handful.

Game 3, vs Delverless Deathproof (0-2)
This deck is a surprisingly competitive homebrew by a very good friend of mine, who got inspiration from the Modern version of Deathshadow decks to construct a Legacy BUG version. It encompasses 4 Death Shadow and 4 Hooting Mandrils. I did a lot of testing versus this deck, knew my sideboard plan and the matchup is pretty-much even. Both games were super close, he eventually outplayed me both times at critical moments. The trample ability of the Mandrils are also a big hedge in the matchup. He previously played Delvers instead, and I was much more confortable. Now, every turn he gets in with the Mandrils, and chump blocking is not an option anymore. Pretty annoying. He kiled me both times by answering my Batterskull and berskering his Deathshadow for the win. I had a few bad draws, drawing my 4 ports before another white mana source, or not drawing one of my 2 RiP postboard for instance, but in the end, Massacre still destroys DnT and he outperformed me generally. Not much to be added here.

Game 4, vs 4c control (2-0)
Another win that felt great. I just outplayed him every game. Bob was MVP here. Game 1, I vialed him in with an active Mom in play, and it turns out that Death and Taxes with card advantage goes insane. I played safe: Revoker in hand with Vial on 2 for when Jace would hit the board, getting Thalia early in with Karakas protection, and trying to have at least 1 threat on the board (Thalia, a Flicker, Mirran ...) that hits every turn, to keep the pressure, while keeping safe options in hand to fight versus removals or discard. This allowed me to have him concentrating on answering the board, and me finding and throwing more threats (Prelate, equipments ... ) as he was answering the previous ones. It went great. I had one very enjoyable play: he was very happy to cast a Toxic Deluge, paying 3 HP in order to get rid of a mother of runes and a Thalia freshly equipped with a SFI, and I Vialed in Pontiff giving +1/+1. Pontiff haunting Thalia even got me rid of 3 baleful strixes on board when he killed Thalia with a Fatal push later in the game. The 2 RiP were great, as I found 1 postboard, and it was another must answer card on the board for my opponent, nullifying his snapcasters. The matchup feels like a catch me if you can game, where the player managing to get in the cop's position being the one that eventually wins it: whatever the opponent throws at you or on the board, you just keep outplaying the threats, and at some point you get catched.
Post-board Sword of War and Peace went nuts again. I decided to put it in the sideboard, with 1 pithing needle over 2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar. I still don't know if this is a good call, but it seems like having access to Pithing is never bad, and SWP sweetens a few tough grindy matchups.

I overall felt very happy with the deck. Like usual, it's DnT, so you need a lot of thought and knowledge of both your deck and your opponent's deck, and that's not even a sufficient condition to win, it's a necessary one. Then it's about playing as optimal as possible.

Two times Prelate in main felt great, and I was not even paired in matchups where it's the most useful (Lands, Grixis Delver, 4c Loam, Burn, Storm ...). I could not imagine not playing Pontiff right now, as it straightforwardly handles TNN, but is also a very good edge in tough matchups like Infect, and even gives you a little bit more of a chance versus Elves. Bob was great, even awesome. Getting card advantage is usually enough to give you the fuel to power a win. Some players advised me to consider playing 2, or even 3, but I am reticent to cutting off Mirran entirely (he still is amazing in Eldrazi and 4c Matchups, and out of this world when equipped with anything) and having to stretch my manabase even more. I was reluctant enough already to go down to 7 basics. But I'll test it.

[RobNC]

Played a win-a-Mox in Atlanta yesterday and ended up 4-3, but had some pretty sweet plays I was quite proud of.

Maindeck (60)
4 Mother of Runes
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
4 Mirran Crusader
2 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Sanctum Prelate
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
2 Cavern of Souls
3 Karakas
10 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

Sideboard (15)
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Path to Exile
2 Council's Judgment
1 Sword of War and Peace
2 Rest in Peace

R1: Elves (0-0)
G1: We both develop our board. I sit on a Vial on 3 for a while and cast creatures. Get a Jitte online but he casts Green Sun's Zenith for Reclamation Sage to take care of it. He develops a little more and taps most of his board with Heritage Druid activations to hard-cast a Craterhoof Behemoth, then untaps one other elf so he has enough to swing for lethal. I Vial in Flickerwisp, flicker the Craterhoof, and take 7. Next turn he swings into my measly board with his 5/5 Craterhoof. I vial in Mirran Crusader and double block with Crusader and Recruiter to kill Craterhoof, and win shortly after with Flickerwisp and Crusader beatdown.
G2: On my turn 2 I wasteland a Dryad Arbor instead of casting Ethersworn Canonist, and his next turn he drops like 6 elves. Get Hoof'd the following turn.
G3: I sandbag a Containment Priest in my hand while ticking up Vial. After he develops a few turns he casts Wirewood Symbiote and then Green Sun's for 4 (I think for Wren's Run Packmaster). I respond by putting in Flickerwisp with Vial, flickering the Symbiote, and then flashing in Containment Priest. After a few more turns of staring each other down I get a Jitte online with a Crusader and take over.
Win 2-1

R2: BUG Control (1-0)
G1: I start out okay until he starts chipping away my board with Liliana, The Last Hope. I Vial in Mirran Crusader feeling confident, then he drops Liliana of the Veil to -2 the Crusader away and once I see Jace, The Mind Sculptor I scoop.
G2: T1 Thoughtseize takes my Mirran Crusader. T2 Thoughtseize takes the second Crusader I drew on my next turn. He gets Liliana online before I can get anything on board to stick and that's it for me. This guy ended up going on to win the entire tournament.
Lose 0-2

R3: Sneak & Show (1-1)
G1: He mulls to 5 and I try to figure out which combo deck he's on after a T1 Preordain. I get his life total low and then he casts Show and Tell. I put in Batterskull expecting to race Griselbrand, but he drops Emrakul, The Aeons Torn instead and I can't beat that with what I have.
G2: I play the mana denial game and after he miscounts mana to cast and activate Sneak Attack he scoops.
G3. I mulled aggressively but not enough, as I did not have Karakas. He T2 S&T into Emrakul and I have nothing.
Lose 1-2

R4: Sneak & Show (1-2)
G1: Mana denial holds him off long enough for me to get there.
G2: I keep a hand with Containment Priest and leave it in hand. When he casts S&T I flash in Priest, we both decline to put anything into play. Next turn I drop a Prelate naming 3, and he spins wheels for a bit while I beat down with Priest and Prelate. He kills Priest with a Fire // Ice, and I get a Thalia in. More beat downs. I get him to 4, and then on his upkeep I Port his Island, activate Vial to Flickerwisp his Lotus Petal, leaving him with nothing but an untapped Island. He draws and then flops his hand on the table revealing a freshly drawn Scalding Tarn and a Pyroclasm that he could not cast thanks to Thalia.
Win 2-0

R5: Maverick brew (2-2)
G1: We both develop boards with a big stare down. He manages to pull off the Dark Depths combo, but I top-deck a Flickerwisp to take care of the token. Eventually Mirran Crusader and Jitte squeak out a win.
G2: He T3 Depths combos me and I have nothing.
G3: I manage to get the mana denial game going and he can't keep up. I trick him into making a block of my Jitte equipped Revoker with his Ramunap Excavator to kill it, and he never comes back from that. Mom equipped with SoWaP seals the deal.
Win 2-1

R6: Lands (3-2)
G1: Keep a great hand with Vial and a Plains or two, but don't see another land for like 10 turns. He wrecks me with The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale and gets Marit Lage out that I can't handle.
G2: He's about to win after I got him pretty low, but he got too many lands out of his graveyard with Life From The Loam to activate Barbarian Ring to take care of my Prelate on 2 since threshold is turned off so he scoops.
G3: I keep a mull to 5 with Karakas, Wasteland, Vial. I start out strong and get 4 or 5 creatures on board despite not seeing a single additional land for many turns. He Wastelands both my lands then Crop Rotations for Tabernacle and wipes my board. I never manage to come back from that.
Lose 1-2

R7: BR Reanimator (friend of mine) (3-3)
G1: I keep a hand with Vial, Mom, and Karakas, fully expecting the T1 Sire of Insanity that I told him would be his best bet if he ever faced D&T. Instead he casts Entomb for Iona, Shield of Emeria and Reanimates it. I T2 drop Karakas, bounce it, and he has nothing after that. He told me later he wanted the Sire but drew it on his first turn.
G2: He spins wheels for a bit, then expecting me to be holding a Containment Priest he goes to combo and says "Do you have it?" I did.
Win 4-3


Aside from not mulling as aggressively in R3 I feel like I played the best I could. The win against Elves made me suuuuuuper happy and I had a blast despite my disappointing record. The room was full of BUG overall (5/8 of the Top 8 were BUG decks) so 4x Crusader was a great call, and I was never unhappy to see it.

[Finn]

Hey Rob. Thanks for the report. A note on your Elves match. The deck was probably rather rogue. Nice prep though: four Crusaders is kinda nice if you can live that long.

[Medea_]

Report for Baltimore. (http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?p=1390)

[Mannaus]

Hello everybody,
Went 5-2, finishing 15th out of 97 at Geneva Legacy this sunday.
I missed top8 very closely, losing to the winner of the tournament at 4-1 in round 6.
The tournament came down the following :
- 1-2 vs Monored Prison
- 2-0 vs Infect
- 2-1 vs DeathProof
- 2-1 vs Infect
- 2-0 vs DnT
- 1-2 vs Turbo Depths
- 2-1 vs Aggro Loam
I will try to write a more detailled report later on. In general, Orzhov Pontiff was MVP all day long, and I did not miss Gideons. My loss in 1st round was due to inexperience in the matchup. Game 1 I had a Sanctum in hand, not knowing what to call, and it was too late when he started flowing the board with 3 CMC artifacts. My loss to Turbo Depths was to a good friend that just outplayed me that day.

[Medea_]

Hello everybody,
Went 5-2, finishing 15th out of 97 at Geneva Legacy this sunday.
I missed top8 very closely, losing to the winner of the tournament at 4-1 in round 6.
The tournament came down the following :
- 1-2 vs Monored Prison
- 2-0 vs Infect
- 2-1 vs DeathProof
- 2-1 vs Infect
- 2-0 vs DnT
- 1-2 vs Turbo Depths
- 2-1 vs Aggro Loam
I will try to write a more detailled report later on. In general, Orzhov Pontiff was MVP all day long, and I did not miss Gideons. My loss in 1st round was due to inexperience in the matchup. Game 1 I had a Sanctum in hand, not knowing what to call, and it was too late when he started flowing the board with 3 CMC artifacts. My loss to Turbo Depths was to a good friend that just outplayed me that day.

Deathproof? Uh, I usually don't ask this question, but what on earth is that deck?

[Mannaus]

I am not sure of the name of this archetype ; it's all the BUxy Delver decks based on Death'Shadow. Inspired from Modern. In this case it was a BUG version with TNN and Gurmag.

[Medea_]

I am not sure of the name of this archetype ; it's all the BUxy Delver decks based on Death'Shadow. Inspired from Modern. In this case it was a BUG version with TNN and Gurmag.

Ah, okay. I tend to refer to it as Death's Shadow Delver. One of my locals, Justin Parnell, played it to a couple of good finishes.

[Whitefaces]

It was originally called Deathproof, source (http://www.legacy-france.org/index.php?showtopic=11019).

[Medea_]

It was originally called Deathproof, source (http://www.legacy-france.org/index.php?showtopic=11019).

Well, I can't argue with a source from 2013! Thanks!

[RobNC]

Hey Rob. Thanks for the report. A note on your Elves match. The deck was probably rather rogue. Nice prep though: four Crusaders is kinda nice if you can live that long.

I didn't see anything too unusual about it, I think it was fairly standard. He had a 1/1 split of Packmaster and Nissa and I did see one Elvish Mystic, but nothing else stood out as unusual. I only saw one Cradle and zero Glimpses in all three games, so it's possible he was on a somewhat budget list, though.

If I didn't have experience playing the deck myself I probably would've gotten stomped, though. I kept plowing his Symbiotes as soon as they resolved, and his reaction made me think he was used to playing against players less familiar with the deck.

[silinhateamtop]

Hello everybody,
Went 5-2, finishing 15th out of 97 at Geneva Legacy this sunday.
I missed top8 very closely, losing to the winner of the tournament at 4-1 in round 6.
The tournament came down the following :
- 1-2 vs Monored Prison
- 2-0 vs Infect
- 2-1 vs DeathProof
- 2-1 vs Infect
- 2-0 vs DnT
- 1-2 vs Turbo Depths
- 2-1 vs Aggro Loam
I will try to write a more detailled report later on. In general, Orzhov Pontiff was MVP all day long, and I did not miss Gideons. My loss in 1st round was due to inexperience in the matchup. Game 1 I had a Sanctum in hand, not knowing what to call, and it was too late when he started flowing the board with 3 CMC artifacts. My loss to Turbo Depths was to a good friend that just outplayed me that day.

How was the match against Aggro Loam? Could specify more. Does this confrontation interest me enough!

Which side out do you give in this match? (This second question is open to all who could complement)

[Mannaus]

Sideboard report and notes from my tournament

I played this list:



// 23 Lands

4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Karakas
2 Cavern of Souls
7 Plains
2 Marsh Flats
1 Scrubland

//7 Artifacts

4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa’s Jitte

// 4 Spells

4 Swords to Plowshares

// 26 Creatures

4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Mother of Runes
4 Flickerwisp
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Sanctum Prelate
1 Dark Confidant
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Orzhov Pontiff


// 15 Sideboard Cards

2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Cannonist
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Sword of War and Peace
1 Pithing Needle
2 Rest in Peace
2 Path to Exile
2 Council’s Judgement
1 Orzhov Pontiff




A few notes: Pontiff is mainly a meta call: he is unmatched in the DnT build to deal with problematic creature decks: any deck encompassing TNN's, Infect, Pyromancer, Elves, Mentor Token's, DnT, Goblins (Storm and variants), and so on.
Sideboard: pretty stock, I preferred Faeries over Surgical extraction's due to the amount of Reanimator decks I was expecting. I am not too sure about this, maybe I'll switch back. I didn't face any Reanimators tough. I decided to remove my 2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar from the side and include 1 Pithing Needle and 1 Sword of War and Peace instead.
Heads up to Medea for all his content on DnT. Inspired me largely from his sideboard. Most notably the inclusion of Sword of War and Peace, of which I'm never too sure of, but which consistently delivers the wins. Also the Matchup section of the website helps a lot when preparing for a meta. So one more, time, thank you very much for all the work you're putting in this. It's a great opportunity for the DnT community.

As it came down:

Match 1 versus Red Prison - Result 1-2 (0-1)
Side out: 4 Swords to Plowshares
Side in: 2 Council Judgement 1 Pithing Needle 1 Sword of War and Peace
This matchup should be favorable, but my inexperience in it cost me game 1, not knowing what to name with Sanctum and losing to Ensnaring Bridge lock-out. Game 2 I had too much for it, and game 3 he had a better outcome, locking me with Chandra, Pyromancer .

Match 2 versus Infect - Result 2-0
Side out: 3 Phyrexian Revoker 2 Recruiter of the Guard 1 Batterskull 2 Mother of Runes
Side in: 2 Path to Exile 2 Ethersworn Cannonist 2 Council's Judgement 1 Pithing Needle 1 Orzhov Pontiff
My knowledge of the matchup paid off, and it was 2 straightforward wins. I didn't see my Pontiff's these games. I always name 3 with Prelate. It turns out that cutting them off their free pump spell probably is the best call: then it's way easier to cut them off green mana (port, wasteland) and preventing them to go Lethal.

Match 3 versus BUG Deathproof - Result 2-1 (0-1)
Side out: 3 Phyrexian Revoker 1 Orzhov Pontiff 1 Sanctum Prelate
Side in: 2 Council's Judgement 2 Path to Exile 1 Pithing Needle
I side in 1 pithing for DRS, or would he have problematic PW's. Risk was low, and priority here is to get rid of his big creatures (Death Shadow, Angler and Delver's). I lost game 1 to inferior board presence, but then took game 2&3 control mode.

Match 4 versus Infect - Result 2-1 (1-0)
Same side as in match 2. He took game 2 by me keeping a slow hand with no 1 CMC spot removal and turn 2 combo'ed me out. The two other games, Pontiff, Thalia, StP and mana denial put me in a driving seat.

Match 5 versus Death and Taxes - Result 2-0
Side out: 4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben 2 Sanctum Prelate 1 Mirran Crusader
Side in: 2 Council's Judgement 2 Path to Exile 1 Pithing Needle 1 Sword of War and Peace 1 Orzhov Pontiff
I dislike keeping my Prelate's, as they feel like a win-more card. They're great only when you're ahead on board and would like to cut your opponent out of spot removals. SWP was great, Orzhov Pontiff was back breaking. I side out Mirran since Pontiff is strictly better.

Match 6 versus Turbo Depths - Result 1-2 (1-0)
Side out: 1 Orzhov Pontiff 1 Sword of Fire and Ice 1 Stoneforge Mystic 2 Sanctum Prelate
Side in: 2 Path to Exile 2 Council's Judgement 1 Pithing Needle
This was the match in which I was least confident in my sideboarding decisions. What to side in was straightforward, but what to side out was not at all... I ended up choosing to get rid of the SFI, since it seemed too slow and not relevant enough (whereas Batterskull and Jitte provide with the HP safety net) and Prelate's, since I would like to call 1 to cut him off Crop Rotation, but then you're left out of your Spot Removals.
I felt highly confident after a straight win in the first game, but then got outplayed. The matchup is very tricky, and probably I need more practice. Surgical Extraction would have been match winning here probably as well. A good BG depths player turns out to be able to play around all the hate you throw at him, since that's the goal of their deck: dodging the hate, until you have nothing left and you face a huge 20/20 flyer. They were nice matches.

Match 7 versus Aggro Loam - Result 2-1 (0-1)
Side out: 4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben ; 1 Orzhov Pontiff ; 1 Umezawa's Jitte
Side in: 2 Rest in Peace 1 Pithing Needle 1 Sword of War and Peace 2 Council's Judgement
The big deal here is getting rid of recursive Loam's and Punishing fires, which destroyed me game 1. I missed not having Surgical Extraction here, and in the end opted to not board in the Faeries, since I played 2 Prelate and 2 RiP already, and didn't know what to board out additionaly. It turned out to be enough, and Sanctum Prelate with Mother of Runes plus Vial locked him out of the two next games. I also aggresively casted Revoker naming Liliana of the Veil both games. At the end, my opponent told me he actually sided them out. Not sure of this choice, also because it was to side in Golgari Charm and Krosan Grip, both eating it to Prelate (the 1st one locks out the 2, the second one the 3 CMC, for Toxic deluge, Liliana ... Sometimes I call 3 first, depending on the board state, to cut him off Liliana and Toxic Deluge. ).
I believe this matchup is slightly unfavorable before side, but then turns in our favor. It all depends if they can Turn 2 Liliana us, keep an active Bob on the board or lock us out with Punishing Fire and if we have the relevant answers to those cards. I think the DnT player should take the control role, and try to lock them out of their game. Then, Knight of the Reliquary apart, we should be able to overpower them on board with Equipments and Flyers. Sword of War and Peace helps a great lot here as well, as it serves as an additional pro-red protection (since SFI usually eats its Qasali Pridemage activation). Plus it can give protection from Knight, which turns out to be highly relevant.

In general: I didn't face TNN decks, but Pontiff still delivered. He helps fixing a lot of difficult matchups. Bob was the best Silver Bullet one could wish for: when you don't have him, you do your usual DnT stuff, and when you turn out to have him active, he gives so much card advantage that the game is pretty much unlosable further down the road. The 2 Prelates main felt great all day long. I sided in Pithing Needle every match, and it never was a dead draw.

Any comments are welcome on all the sideboarding decisions or in general

[Tylert]

Report for Baltimore. (http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?p=1390)

You were wondering in you report from the classic event if Sneak and show is still a favorable match-up for D&T.
I don't think it is anymore. Most of them now play omniscience to drop down from Show and tell and you can't win most of the time vs a resolved omniscience. You really need a lot of hate and most important, you need to gamble when playing the show and tell game.
Do i drop a thalia or cannonist against omniscience? or containement priest vs emrakul or griselbrand? or Revoker for sneak attack? It's a guessing game that you can loose very easily.
First you need hate, then it needs to be the right hate, and you need to choose wisely when he resolves a sneak and show.
They also play more basics making it a little bit harder to disrupt their mana...
Maybe still favorable against none omniscience versions, but i think most of S&T decks now play omniscience, and then the match-up is only even, or a little bit favorable only.

[cheerios]

What's the link to the DNT discord group?

[Medea_]

What's the link to the DNT discord group?

EqTF7y5

[autonom]

Here is some new deck tech I am going to test.

Death & Taxes & Force of Will

Creatures:26
4 Mother of Runes
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Recruiter of the Guard
4 Spell Queller
3 True-Name Nemesis
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant

Spells:11
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

Lands:23
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Karakas
1 Marsh Flats
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Tundra
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:15
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Path to Exile
3 Spell Pierce
2 Rest in Peace
4 Force of Will
2 Submerge

My main goal when building the deck was to retain the strengths of mono white D&T but to be able to support Force of Will.

I put FoW in the board because I could not get enough blue sources in the main without playing cantrips.

I expect a better matchup than monowhite D&T against basically all combo decks. I think the deck looks strong against many other decks as well thanks to TNN, Spell Queller, Spell Pierce, FOW and Submerge but that comes at the cost of a weaker mana base. I expect a worse matchup than mono white against Eldrazi, Lands and Loam.

I would be interested in hearing what you think about the deck and how you would tweak it. I will post a report if it plays well :)

Some things I have considered:
* Spell pierces to the main to complement the mana denial plan, but havent been able to fit them.
* Cantrips to support FoW in main and as a great use of mana with active vial, but this opens the deck up to two new angles of attack: CMC 1 hate and card draw hate
* More cliques main but I wanted to keep the number of UU cards pretty low. I instead choose to play only 1 karakas and 1 Venser + 1 Clique as tutorable toolbox cards and late game recursion.
* 1 Labyrinth, 1 Meddling Mage and 1 Revoker instead of 3 Revoker. Meddling Mage would work as good insurance when Spell Queller has exiled a card. Labyrinth works well with Clique. But I think the deck needs more answers to already deploed threats which Revokers provides.
* Removing SoFaI as maybe I dont need it since I am playing TNN. I could replace it with something like Meddling Mage or Clique instead. But I still think that SoFaI plays an important backup role incase Jitte gets disrupted.

[Moctzal]

It's time for Stoneblade at this point.

Too many reasons to list.

[Medea_]

@autonom

This (http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?page_id=53) is outdated at this point, but might be helpful for you. This (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/576265#paper) may also be of interest.

[autonom]

@autonom

This (http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?page_id=53) is outdated at this point, but might be helpful for you. This (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/576265#paper) may also be of interest.

Thanks for the links!

I enjoy your site and have gotten inspiration from there. I have read most of the content on your site one or more times :-)

[Medea_]

Thanks for the links!

I enjoy your site and have gotten inspiration from there. I have read most of the content on your site one or more times :-)

I'm glad you find it helpful. One thing to keep in mind is that very few people are still mucking around with a blue splash these days. There's probably a reason for that. It's really hard on the mana, and it often involves dropping Port to make all the UU cards castable. If you're just trying to play with Queller, it's probably fine. One you start trying TNN, Venser, and Clique though, at that point, transitioning to a full-on Stoneblade shell might be wise. Test both and see what you think.

[colo]

I tried the U splash quite recently once more, cutting all the beater-esque (Mirran Crusader et al.) stuff for True-Name Nemesis and Geist of Saint Traft (in a 3-2 split between the two). It's not worth it in my opinion. While TNN gives you total peace of mind in terms of spot removal, -1/-1 effects now hit even harder than they did before, and the mana mixture in face of Wasteland (both your own and your opponent's ;)) is a real problem. I'll migrate back to my Recruiter of the Guard-heavy mono-W list with Magus of the Moon/Orzhov Pontiff via Cavern of Souls, I guess.

On a slightly different note: I recently dabbled in Burn with a white splash for Steppe Lynx and Jotun Grunt. And oh boy, does Grunt pull its weight these days! Due to its stellar performance, I'm very much considering trying it in D&T again. Incrementally hosing Deathrite Shaman, Delve-spells, and all other kinds of graveyard shenanigans, all while dominating the board at 1W is a bargain that needs revisiting imo.

[iatee]

The black and red splashes have a slightly less clean manabase but they get to abuse Cavern, so it's a trade-off. Whereas green or blue splashes just have strictly worse manabases.

And basically all of the powerful creatures you want to play are UU and not human.

[Mannaus]

On a slightly different note: I recently dabbled in Burn with a white splash for Steppe Lynx and Jotun Grunt. And oh boy, does Grunt pull its weight these days! Due to its stellar performance, I'm very much considering trying it in D&T again. Incrementally hosing Deathrite Shaman, Delve-spells, and all other kinds of graveyard shenanigans, all while dominating the board at 1W is a bargain that needs revisiting imo.

This seems fun! In my opinion, the issue with Jotun in DnT is twofolds: its lack of versatility and he eats all removals. If he's too much of an issue on-board (kolaghan-commands in graveyard for example), your opponent will remove it with priority. And then the big boy will have achieved nothing, and ends up being a loss of tempo on your side.
But I'm very interested to hear about your experience, if you end up testing him :)

[Medea_]

Jotun Grunt is an awkward card normally and it got more awkward after RiP got printed. I'm not sold on it since we have gotten so many other options for those flex slots in the past year or so.

[JacobRoberts]

Just throwing in my 2 cents on the blue splash - yeah, UU cards aren't playable in d&t. But the mana base with Geist of St Traft is doable, and its interaction with Karakas and equipment is legitimately powerful in a way that you don't see in any other deck in any other format. Unfortunately, there aren't really any other reasons to go blue. The other creatures with a single blue pip like reflector mage and spell queller aren't really strong enough for legacy, and Meddling Mage is cool but just another turn 2 hatebear in this deck, nothing special. So a blue splash is a dead end right now, barring some silly creature being printed in a new commander/conspiracy.

[Finn]

Colo, you probably considered this, but Grunt is kinda clunky in D+T because the deck does not do anything with the graveyard at all. Games can go a bunch of turns before the first card is even there sometimes. I used Grunt extensively before Thalia 1.0 as recently as 2012. But I think the bar for a card being in this deck has gone up considerably since then.

I recall it being poor graveyard hate and a good beater IF the opponent felt threatened enough to blow removal on him. Exceptionally good at fighting Tarmogoyf.

[Medea_]

Hey folks,

I did a podcast for Leaving a Legacy. If you've got an hour and a half to kill while doing other things, check it out (http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?p=1414).

[Mad Mat]

Two questions for you guys:

-Against topless miracles game 2 (on the play), do you keep this: plains, fetch (black splash), waste, karakas, plow, mother, palace jailer? 2 plows were kept in because you expect 2-3 mentor, izzet staticaster and containment priest.
-Do you board out Serra Avenger against Aluren?

I'm quite satisfied with my current BW list (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=17645&d=309281&f=LE). Last two tournaments I went undefeated in the swiss, but then lost in the QF. Match-ups:

R1: BUG delver 2-0
R2: Grixis control 2-0
R3: Grixis delver 2-1
R4: Infect 2-0
R5,6: ID
QF: Aluren 1-2

R1,2: Bye
R3: Sneaky show with omni 2-1
R4: Infect 2-0
R5: Bant deathblade 2-0
R6,7: ID
QF: Topless miracles 0-2

From these, pontiff is a real asset against infect, true-name blade decks, aluren and grixis control. Not sure about confidant, as he's never lasted a turn the few times I saw him and there was never a good window for recruiting him. Maybe a creature with more immediate impact, like a canonist, a third revoker or a spirit of the labyrinth is better here. Kambal felt like the only card that actually gave me a fighting chance against decks like topless miracles and grixis control, though he didn't play a role in these matches as I never saw him. There's some match-ups were extra crusaders would be better (like Aluren and czech pile), but then there's a whole bunch where Kambal is better, like miracles, lands, sneaky show, burn, UR delver and grixis control.

Boarding:

BUG delver:
-2 revoker, -1 prelate, -1 pontiff, -1 familiar, -1 jitte
+1 path, +2 council, +2 RIP, +1 blessed alliance

Grixis control:
-2 revoker, -4 STP, -2 SFM, -1 jitte, -1 batterskull
+2 Kambal, +2 RIP, +2 Council, +1 Palace Jailer, +1 Pontiff, +2 Canonist

Grixis delver:
-2 revoker, -1 familiar, -1 recruiter, -1 confidant
+1 prelate, +1 path, +2 council, +1 blessed alliance

Infect:
-2 revoker, -2 crusader, -1 batterskull, -1 SFM, -1 Karakas
+2 canonist, +1 pontiff, +1 needle, +1 blessed alliance, +1 path, +1 Leonin Relic-Warder

Sneaky show:
-4 STP, -1 mother, -1 jitte, -1 pontiff, -2 crusader, -1 SFM
+2 Kambal, +1 palace jailer, +1 prelate, +1 leonin relic-warder, +2 canonist, +2 council, +1 needle

Bant deathblade:
-4 Thalia, -1 prelate, -1 familiar
+1 pontiff, +1 needle, +1 blessed alliance, +2 council, +1 leonin relic-warder

Miracles:
-2 STP, -2 crusader, -2 revoker, -1 jitte
+2 Kambal, +1 jailer, +1 prelate, +2 canonist, +1 needle

[iatee]

I wouldn't keep a hand that has no way of doing damage until turn 5 vs Miracles. Wasteland and STP are not cards you want in your opening hand. I think you pretty much have to draw Thalia or SfM immediately for that hand to have a chance vs a normal Miracles start. (I would also play the CJs over STPs, or potentially in addition to 1/2, depending on how Mentor heavy they seemed.)

I don't think the Canonists are that good vs Grixis Control, and boarding out SfM/equip seems wrong there. Sometimes they have Kolaghan's Command, other times they don't and you just win.

I like Kambal a lot, I have played very similar lists and done pretty well with them. I don't think Judge's Familiar is very good, but it's not so bad that you can't win with one in your deck.

[Medea_]

@Mad Matt

Snap mulligan that hand against Miracles. No thought. The last thing I want to do is give my Miracles opponent time to set up and make land drops while playing annoying things like Search for Azcanta. If you brick on a turn 2 and/or 3 play, you're going to be really far behind. Assuming your Mom is dead by turn 4, you're also just one EoT Snapcaster Mage (plus removal spell) from losing the Monarch status and probably the game.

Serra Avenger is decisively average against Aluren (and any other Baleful Strix deck). Whether or not you board it out is entirely dependent on how many cards you have to bring in and what other cards you need to board out first.

Some other random thoughts:

I wouldn't cut Jitte against a Delver deck.

Equipment is the best thing in your deck against any control deck, even if they have things like K. Command.

I'd 100% want Council's Judgment against Miracles. I second Iatee's claim.

Try cutting StP against Stoneblade decks of various natures. It sounds weird, but it feels pretty good.

[Mad Mat]

I wouldn't keep a hand that has no way of doing damage until turn 5 vs Miracles. Wasteland and STP are not cards you want in your opening hand. I think you pretty much have to draw Thalia or SfM immediately for that hand to have a chance vs a normal Miracles start. (I would also play the CJs over STPs, or potentially in addition to 1/2, depending on how Mentor heavy they seemed.)
I played council over plow before, but the only relevant extra hit for council is Jace. Getting rid of Jace is critical, but in my experience the chances of surviving a resolved Jace are very slim anyway. The reduced mana cost (in particular with Thalia) and instant speed on the other hand for plow make a lot of difference, in particular when you board in canonist.


I don't think the Canonists are that good vs Grixis Control, and boarding out SfM/equip seems wrong there. Sometimes they have Kolaghan's Command, other times they don't and you just win.
The reasoning behind boarding out equipment is that they don't just have the commands, they have therapy too. That plus a bunch of unconditional spot removal (they tend to play bolt over push) makes SFM approaches very vulnerable. You don't just lose a threat and/or a piece of equipment, you lose a lot of tempo along the way as well. Extra creatures also bank better against Liliana of the Last Hope.


Snap mulligan that hand against Miracles. No thought. The last thing I want to do is give my Miracles opponent time to set up and make land drops while playing annoying things like Search for Azcanta. If you brick on a turn 2 and/or 3 play, you're going to be really far behind. Assuming your Mom is dead by turn 4, you're also just one EoT Snapcaster Mage (plus removal spell) from losing the Monarch status and probably the game.
My idea was at first that this is a very dubious hand. But it does have the turn 1 play they need to answer if they don't want to face the turn 2 un-plowable SFM or Thalia (which I can draw into or they don't know I don't have). Plow goes fairly well along with Jailer in keeping the monarch for a few turns and Jailer forces them to have it or die to all the value you draw into. What convinced me to keep it was the Karakas, which sets up very difficult board states for them to get rid of if you manage to find a legend (there's 6 post board, + recruiters).

But as it turned out, the hand was too slow and he was able to find most of the answers he needed by the time I resolved Jailer. I did manage to draw four cards off of him, but all of those were blanks and I was forced to plow a snapcaster to stay the monarch (not using vial for pontiff in fear of force of will if an eventual mentor arrived). So yeah, this is a mulligan next time around. I had the answers that should have been sufficient to stay the monarch if he didn't have everything, but he had everything because the hand was too slow to prevent him from finding it.


Serra Avenger is decisively average against Aluren (and any other Baleful Strix deck). Whether or not you board it out is entirely dependent on how many cards you have to bring in and what other cards you need to board out first.
I boarded it out, but I got aggro'd to death game 3 as I failed to find anything of pressure or blocking value. Made me think that maybe I should keep in more beaters, as you're aggro in this match-up anyway. Strix is the problem, but you do have pontiffs and Avenger survives anything else they can throw at you.


I wouldn't cut Jitte against a Delver deck.
That should have been a wisp, actually. Cutting a flyer ain't that attractive against delver either, but this is a deck where I have much more fear from tombstalker than delver so I want all the removal I can get (+RIP). Maybe a recruiter is a better pick, though that does imply one less way to find crusader.


Equipment is the best thing in your deck against any control deck, even if they have things like K. Command.
Is it always? Equipment is good against control and midrange because it is card advantage: every dumb bear becomes a threat when equipped. But it is also a loss of tempo. If you know you're playing against card advantage.deck, including artifact removal, maybe a tempo boost is better than trying to beat them at the attrition game? I find this particularly tempting against Grixis, because they have 2-3 Kolaghan in addition to a therapy suite. This is different than, say, miracles, which has much less answers available to equipment.

I'm not saying I'm convinced that this strategy is the right approach. But it feels like something worth exploring. The match-up is quite bad, while the deck is very popular over here, so any boons are welcome.


Try cutting StP against Stoneblade decks of various natures. It sounds weird, but it feels pretty good.
I always cut STP against stoneblade decks, except for this sort of build. They run much more creatures than esper or deathblade, including 8 mana dorks. While STP can't hit True-Name, a raced-out jitte turn 3 is just as threatening. A double exalted noble or single exalted Deathrite/SFM with a Jitte is just as threatening as a true-name if you don't have the plow (and the crusader comes down too late). Thalia, on the other hand, tends to be worse because they play fewer noncreature spells, while having more ramp, and you depend considerably on timely resolving your noncreature spells to deal with their true-names and equipment.

[Medea_]

So here's an interesting list (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-challenge-2017-12-04) for you all.

[iatee]

I don't find the Grixis matchups to be about tempo, they're actually attrition matchups. Boarding out your two-for-ones so that you don't get two-for-one'd is not a great strategy there. Kolaghan's Command and Cabal Therapy can wreck you with or without Stoneforge.

[tescrin]

Is it always? Equipment is good against control and midrange because it is card advantage: every dumb bear becomes a threat when equipped. But it is also a loss of tempo. If you know you're playing against card advantage.deck, including artifact removal, maybe a tempo boost is better than trying to beat them at the attrition game? I find this particularly tempting against Grixis, because they have 2-3 Kolaghan in addition to a therapy suite. This is different than, say, miracles, which has much less answers available to equipment.

It's worth mentioning:
* Kolaghan's is always a 2-for-1 outside of very rare scenarios. It's true that KCom can be mediocre tempo if all it does is pick off a mom and make you discard a card, but it's always a 2-for-1.
* Cabal Therapy is good against equips sure, but they still run YP and Probe, which is why Therapy is mained against the rest of the field too. A good chunk of the field doesn't run SFM and they still get torn up by Therapy. Given this, dropping the main way your deck wins seems pretty meh.

RIP does seem like the best option; as it hits KCom (potentially), Therapy, Gurmag, SCM, DRS, and they don't have way to remove it. I didn't look at your list, but dropping Revokers, Recruiters, and other slow or low impact cards is the way to go. Recruiter isn't must answer unless you're winning, and Revoker doesn't hit much. Go fo cards that say "you better have it", which are SFM, Crusader, Brimaz, and Mom. If you can land three "must answers" in a row, the chances are that they'll be out of stuff. If you durdle on a Recruiter to get your must answer, you open yourself up to a therapy and give your opp a full turn to find removal, therapy, Force, or a host of other nasties that can get you.

Honestly [as an outsider] I find Recruiter to be a really mediocre addition to the deck. I think if people were running the "old" MonoW D&T they'd still be winning just as much (and possibly more.) Recruiter makes sense in the Magus lists or for those hold outs running mangara; but IMO you should just run 3-4 high impact cards against the field (Crusader, Brimaz, or some other tech-nasty.) When TNN first came out and the list went full on aggro with Serra Avengers and whatnot, that's the list I think is best poised; and it's just not putting up results because everyone's still stuck on Recruiter from the age of WR D&T

[FeX]

@Tescrin
i 100% second what you are saying.
that being said, im still playing exactly one recruiter in the sideboard to increase the chances of finding my sideboard bullets mostly, and the occasional flickerwisp chain which is sometimes just very good.
the current field is so polluted with removal (pile/grixis) that i have the best win record by just soflty disrupting the opponent and slowing them down initially(thalia,port,waste, revoker) and then jamming a creature that just doesnt get hit by one-for-one removal and idieally has first/double strike or some form of evasion to strap jitte/sword on it and go from there. im playing 8-9 creatures that fit this category in my 75 and it feels awesome.
you obviously just need to be careful to not overextend into deluge/casualties etc.. my plan basically is if you discard/remove one of them, im just throwing another one at you that you can barely ever remove. but that only works if you dedicate enough slots in the deck towards such creatures.
also worth noting is the fact that im playing 1 maindeck relic of progenitus at the moment and it has been great so far. relevant in a lot of match ups and at worst it is digging through your deck a little.
generally, i think DnT is getting built a little too slow/clunky these days and while recruiter of the guard opens up a lot of new possibilities, you shouldnt play too many,imo.
i personally prefer a much more streamlined approach to the deck than durdling around too much with clunky cards in the main that are cute sometimes, but other times are just absolutely terrible and a shot in the dark too many times(palace jailer/prelate/spirit of the labyrinth etc). a hard to deal with creature package (especially in the current meta) in addition to our soft disruption alongside a sideboard with cheap/efficient answers to our most problematic cards/strategies g2/g3 is rarely ever bad.

also @Phil
SoWaP is great!

[Mad Mat]

I don't find the Grixis matchups to be about tempo, they're actually attrition matchups. Boarding out your two-for-ones so that you don't get two-for-one'd is not a great strategy there. Kolaghan's Command and Cabal Therapy can wreck you with or without Stoneforge.
We have a few tricks that can make an attrition fight possible: problematic creatures like Mirran Crusader, Pia and Kiran Nalaar or Palace Jailer; legendaries + Karakas; Orzhov Pontiff/Cunning Sparkmage; Rest in Peace and unanswered equipment. The problem I experienced is that our approaches to gain card advantage are less consistent and/or abundant than theirs. Hence the idea of trying to tempo them instead, in part by denying them gaining a lot of tempo advantage with Kolaghan's Command.

On the other hand, Tescrin makes a good point: recruiter fits rather poorly in the tempo strategy, while he may be important in tutoring up the right pieces of the above list. Also, Canonist is itself very conditional, given that he also gives them extra wiggle-room with Kolaghan due to it being an artifact. I should find some more time for proper testing this match-up.


It's worth mentioning:
* Kolaghan's is always a 2-for-1 outside of very rare scenarios. It's true that KCom can be mediocre tempo if all it does is pick off a mom and make you discard a card, but it's always a 2-for-1.
There's a world of difference between a 2-for-1 that wrecks your and/or stabilizes their board and a 2-for-1 that has no board impact, making you discard a card and them getting back a strix or snap they can only cast next turn. With equipment in particular, the card more easily becomes a 3-for-1, killing a creature, an equipment and blocking the formerly equipped creature to death with one of their snaps, strixes or tokens that did not cost them a card. You're not going to escape that it is a 2-for-1. But you can try to make it so that it's as lame a 2-for-1 as possible.


* Cabal Therapy is good against equips sure, but they still run YP and Probe, which is why Therapy is mained against the rest of the field too. A good chunk of the field doesn't run SFM and they still get torn up by Therapy. Given this, dropping the main way your deck wins seems pretty meh.
The problem of recruiter and stoneforge is that they remove one of the obstacles Grixis players need to take to make maximal use of their therapies. They don't always have the probe, as well as the therapy and the pyromancer and the mana to sequence them properly. Recruiter has the problem somewhat less, because starting from turn 4 (and even better with a living vial) you can still find something castable and play it if you know they have therapy. That's also one of the reasons I like the single Judge's Familiar, because you can recruit for it and jam it to throw their next turn into complete disarray manawise, as they are a much more mana hungry deck without DRS than czech pile.


RIP does seem like the best option; as it hits KCom (potentially), Therapy, Gurmag, SCM, DRS, and they don't have way to remove it.
RIP is by far the best card against them. I've considered going up to 3 for this reason. Grixis does not run DRS though, so it is less vulnerable than Czech Pile. And they tend to board out counters, so extra RIP's are complete duds unless they are playing Engineered Explosives.


I didn't look at your list, but dropping Revokers, Recruiters, and other slow or low impact cards is the way to go. Recruiter isn't must answer unless you're winning, and Revoker doesn't hit much. Go fo cards that say "you better have it", which are SFM, Crusader, Brimaz, and Mom. If you can land three "must answers" in a row, the chances are that they'll be out of stuff. If you durdle on a Recruiter to get your must answer, you open yourself up to a therapy and give your opp a full turn to find removal, therapy, Force, or a host of other nasties that can get you.
The therapy risk of recruiter is an issue, and rather inconsistent with a tempo plan. The reason to keep it in is that it can find the key creatures you want for this match-up. It's a virtual extra copies of cards like Mirran Crusader, Thalia, Orzhov Pontiff and Palace Jailer. With less equipment, its 1/1 body is pretty lame, but it does make any future Flickerwisp a more serious threat if you don't have vial.


Honestly [as an outsider] I find Recruiter to be a really mediocre addition to the deck. I think if people were running the "old" MonoW D&T they'd still be winning just as much (and possibly more.) Recruiter makes sense in the Magus lists or for those hold outs running mangara; but IMO you should just run 3-4 high impact cards against the field (Crusader, Brimaz, or some other tech-nasty.) When TNN first came out and the list went full on aggro with Serra Avengers and whatnot, that's the list I think is best poised; and it's just not putting up results because everyone's still stuck on Recruiter from the age of WR D&T
Recruiter allows you to play singletons like Orzhov Pontiff, Sanctum Prelate, Palace Jailer, Leonin Relic-Warder and Magus of the Moon to great effect, because you always have about twice as many ways to find them than you'd have otherwise. That's the main reason to pack him. It makes splashing possible and therefore allows you to run cards that address serious problems this deck tends to have, like True-Name Nemesis, token swarms, opposing mom board states, argothian enchantresses, strix chains, infect creatures...

[Medea_]

Recruiter is the best late-game top deck we have, especially when you have a pair of Vials. Even if you don't have any silver bullets to fetch, you get absurd lines like:

Cast Recruiter getting Flickerwisp
Vial in Flickerwisp, blinking Recruiter.
Get Stoneforge, Vial in Stoneforge, grab a piece of equipment.

This utility alone (the "army in a can" effect) would be worth the two slots. It also serves as a copy of your best cards in the slower matchups and your hate cards in combo matchups. It's a consistency card in a deck that doesn't have too much of that sort of thing. Like any card in our deck, it has its strengths and weaknesses. It will get boarded out in plenty of matchups. That doesn't mean you should leave the card out of the deck for tempo reasons. We are a control deck. We want the game to go long. Recruiter's value gets better as the game goes long.

[cheerios]

I think recruiters shine in the grindy match ups but suck against aggro or tempo. Recruiters plus vials equals a flickerwisp army. This is just my view as D&T newbie (just one week of experience). Would you guys recommend more avengers over crusaders in a meta with more eldrazi?

[FeX]

@Phil
agreed. thats why i still run 1. the upsides are absolutely worth at least 1 slot,imo.


regarding avenger vs crusader:
i recommend both. but against eldrazi specifically,yes, i think avenger is more important/better in this MU, aside from the occasional dismember that crusader could dodge. but those are rare corner cases. overall flying is very important vs them.

[RobNC]

I still run two Recruiter maindeck and am usually happy to see him (uh...her), particularly when games go long.

I do find I typically side him out in fast combo matchups though; even though he can help find hate pieces I'd rather emphasize speed and make room, but at the expense of sometimes needing to mulligan more aggressively.

[Medea_]

@cheerios

Avenger comes down quickly off Vial and lets you sometimes take the role of aggressor away from your opponent. It's great in the matchup. Crusader isn't necessarily a bad card either though. It walls the small threats and trades with a Thought-Knot. I'd look at your metagame as a whole and figure out which would be better rather than focusing just on Eldrazi.

[cheerios]

@medea

I agree. I managed to reach the semifinals of a 5 round event last weekend playing a 2 crusader and 2 avenger split. I lost to bug delver and infect. This was my second tourney with the deck and had several misplays during the day. Sowap was great all day. I used it vs mono red sneak, and lands.

[ChrisCunningham]

Sword of War and Peace won me $50 at our local monthly Legacy; beat Grixis Delver, Red Stompy, Elves, and UW Standstill.

[Medea_]

Something something SoWaP is the truth, something something...

[ChrisCunningham]

Something something SoWaP is the truth, something something...

This is more of a thought exercise than anything else, but the decks I saw this weekend were almost all red, white, and combo:

Czech Pile, Elves, Red Stompy, Grixis Delver, Sneak and Show, Storm, UW Standstill, Goblins, Food Chain, Soul Sisters

Would you consider playing a 4th equip main here or moving the Batterskull to the sideboard or something else to play War and Peace main?

[Medea_]

This is more of a thought exercise than anything else, but the decks I saw this weekend were almost all red, white, and combo:

Czech Pile, Elves, Red Stompy, Grixis Delver, Sneak and Show, Storm, UW Standstill, Goblins, Food Chain, Soul Sisters

Would you consider playing a 4th equip main here or moving the Batterskull to the sideboard or something else to play War and Peace main?

Would I consider it? Absolutely. Would I pull the trigger on it? Probably not. I feel like there's enough Eldarzi and Delver running around right now that I want to have the Batterskull as a life gain crutch; I don't like Batterskull, but it has its role. The last time I pulled the trigger on SoWaP in the main was when Miracles was EVERYWHERE and the pro-white was super relevant there in addition to all of the normal uses of the card. I don't think that you'd get punished for the change though; there's enough of the mirror around where you'll mise a bunch of game 1 wins off that.

[scapiander]

new to DnT

is there a equipment fetching order you prefer when playing Stoneforge against blue decks? i.e. Miracles, Delver, and Czech Pile

[Moctzal]

Likely Sword of Fire and Ice.

Phil's written a post about fetching equipment on his site:

http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?page_id=43

[silinhateamtop]

because Gideon, is still so preferred not SB instead of Cataclysm? It seems he's only good when we're ahead. Do not have the same ability to reset the game

[Oogway]

Apologies as I know this has been posted earlier but can’t seem to find it. Can you vial in a containment priest or will it exile itself? Thanks

[Mad Mat]

Apologies as I know this has been posted earlier but can’t seem to find it. Can you vial in a containment priest or will it exile itself? Thanks
It won't exile itself.

[G0R3F3ST]

Alright this nyx fic deck is running rampant in my meta.
I've tried keeping hands with a combination of Pithing Needle, Thalia, and Revoker pee and post side board. I name volraths stronghold with Pithing Needle, Revoker 1 names pernicious deed, and Revoker 2 names garruk relentless. However, any number of these things is not enough of a clock to kill him before the impending hard cast of overwhelming splendor. I've also sided in both surgical and rest in piece but cabal therapy just rips it out of your hand.

Any help would be nice.

[RobNC]

Alright this nyx fic deck is running rampant in my meta.
I've tried keeping hands with a combination of Pithing Needle, Thalia, and Revoker pee and post side board. I name volraths stronghold with Pithing Needle, Revoker 1 names pernicious deed, and Revoker 2 names garruk relentless. However, any number of these things is not enough of a clock to kill him before the impending hard cast of overwhelming splendor. I've also sided in both surgical and rest in piece but cabal therapy just rips it out of your hand.

Any help would be nice.
Exile the Academy Rector with the exile trigger on the stack. Surgical Extraction works, Faerie Macabre works, Rest in Peace shuts it all down (and I think even shuts down Veteran Explorer too but I'm not 100% sure on that one).

While Veteran Explorer is a "dies" trigger, Rector must be exiled from the graveyard after it dies. Therefore if it doesn't make it to the graveyard, or if you remove it otherwise before the trigger can be resolved, the opponent will not get tutor effect.

EDIT: Here's is Rector's text on Gatherer:
When Academy Rector dies, you may exile it. If you do, search your library for an enchantment card, put that card onto the battlefield, then shuffle your library.

[Cpt-Qc]

Exile the Academy Rector with the exile trigger on the stack. Surgical Extraction works, Faerie Macabre works, Rest in Peace shuts it all down (and I think even shuts down Veteran Explorer too but I'm not 100% sure on that one).

While Veteran Explorer is a "dies" trigger, Rector must be exiled from the graveyard after it dies. Therefore if it doesn't make it to the graveyard, or if you remove it otherwise before the trigger can be resolved, the opponent will not get tutor effect.

EDIT: Here's is Rector's text on Gatherer:
When Academy Rector dies, you may exile it. If you do, search your library for an enchantment card, put that card onto the battlefield, then shuffle your library.

"Dying" trigger means it needs to hit the graveyard. If it gets exiled instead it never dies and thus never triggers. Long story short, you are right about explorers also being shut down by RIP.

The best way to combat that deck is really to hit the graveyard. Consider it like a slower more controllish reanimator deck but instead of bringing back creatures they bring back enchantments. Without their graveyard the deck is really terrible (it's impossible to get enough mana to hardcast those enchants without explorer).

[ChrisCunningham]

Hi friends, just looking for some fringe advice here. The last match of my last league, my opponent went:

Game 1 on the play: Chrome Mox exiling Griselbrand, Ritual, Entomb, Animate Dead Griselbrand, Draw 7, Unmask targetting me exiling another Ritual. I conceded since I was 0% to win and no reason to reveal my deck.

I boarded out my Stoneforges, equipment, and 3 Flickerwisps for a flurry of hate and removal (2 Path, 2 Canonist, 3 RiP, 1 Faerie, 2 Containment Priest).

Game 2, I opened with Vial; he T1 Thoughtseized my removal spell leaving me with 3 sideboard haymakers and played T2 Pack Rat. I managed to just barely port him out of making all the Pack Rats and win with a Mirran Crusader. However, SFM would have been the perfect card against someone trying to go Thoughtseize -> Pack Rat, so he got me. I guess?

I assume he will go all-in reanimator again since he is on the play Game 3 so I leave my sideboarding as is. Normally I would consider cutting Moms or Crusaders but they are a good hedge against Pack Rat... I guess...?

Game 3 I kept StP, Faerie Macabre, RiP, Canonist, Port, Plains, Plains. He played T1 Ritual, Thoughtseize my StP (!!), Pack Rat. He then hit running basics and I couldn't keep up; my port only delayed him by a turn and in the end my few 2/2s ended up chumping or trading with his 3/3s and I had almost no relevant lategame in my deck.

--

What would you do differently? Is this deck a known quantity? Do you think in hindsight that the Pack Rats were maindeck?

Thanks for any wisdom. I think one of the underrated challenges of this deck is the skill to "sight-read" pilot it correctly against plays you don't see often.

[Medea_]

Hi friends, just looking for some fringe advice here. The last match of my last league, my opponent went:

Game 1 on the play: Chrome Mox exiling Griselbrand, Ritual, Entomb, Animate Dead Griselbrand, Draw 7, Unmask targetting me exiling another Ritual. I conceded since I was 0% to win and no reason to reveal my deck.

I boarded out my Stoneforges, equipment, and 3 Flickerwisps for a flurry of hate and removal (2 Path, 2 Canonist, 3 RiP, 1 Faerie, 2 Containment Priest).

Game 2, I opened with Vial; he T1 Thoughtseized my removal spell leaving me with 3 sideboard haymakers and played T2 Pack Rat. I managed to just barely port him out of making all the Pack Rats and win with a Mirran Crusader. However, SFM would have been the perfect card against someone trying to go Thoughtseize -> Pack Rat, so he got me. I guess?

I assume he will go all-in reanimator again since he is on the play Game 3 so I leave my sideboarding as is. Normally I would consider cutting Moms or Crusaders but they are a good hedge against Pack Rat... I guess...?

Game 3 I kept StP, Faerie Macabre, RiP, Canonist, Port, Plains, Plains. He played T1 Ritual, Thoughtseize my StP (!!), Pack Rat. He then hit running basics and I couldn't keep up; my port only delayed him by a turn and in the end my few 2/2s ended up chumping or trading with his 3/3s and I had almost no relevant lategame in my deck.

--

What would you do differently? Is this deck a known quantity? Do you think in hindsight that the Pack Rats were maindeck?

Thanks for any wisdom. I think one of the underrated challenges of this deck is the skill to "sight-read" pilot it correctly against plays you don't see often.

I would have identified your opponent as being on the Unmask version of Tin Fins that has been running around. It's possible they were actually some sort of budget mono black reanimator as well. I would not have expected a Pack Rat at all, and Pack Rat seems like a card that should be pretty beatable given our Revokers, StP, Flickerwisps, Crusaders... Either way, I would have focused on beating the graveyard aspect of the deck.

[Whitefaces]

I would have identified your opponent as being on the Unmask version of Tin Fins that has been running around. It's possible they were actually some sort of budget mono black reanimator as well. I would not have expected a Pack Rat at all, and Pack Rat seems like a card that should be pretty beatable given our Revokers, StP, Flickerwisps, Crusaders... Either way, I would have focused on beating the graveyard aspect of the deck.

Tin Fins doesn't play Animate Dead, it's definitely BR Reanimator and the Pack Rat sb plan has been around for a while.

[Medea_]

Thoughts (http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?p=1420)on my current 4x Mirran Crusader build after 127 matches.

[Balanced]

Thoughts (http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?p=1420)on my current 4x Mirran Crusader build after 127 matches.

Can I ask how you board against Elves? I've been off DnT for about 6 months now, but when I was playing it regularly I reached a point where this match up felt 50-50 or better. I know that's not the traditional experience for most players.

I did have a couple unique sb choices though, so maybe that made the difference (1-2x Gut Shot).

[Curby]

Hey Phil, great article. Been away for a bit and it looks like some things have swung. If we're having more trouble with removal, how about an anthem effect in one of the flex slots in the side? I wish there were a tutorable option, but anything small enough to be tutored is also small enough to die to the same 2-damage effects we're trying to disrupt anyway. Back to the article, I don't think you mentioned Serra Avengers. Are you not missing a larger air force at all, or do you simply think that Crusaders do more for us these days than Avengers?

[Medea_]

@Balanced

My thoughts on the matchup are here. (http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?page_id=685) If you're running a black splash with a bunch of Pontiffs or a red splash with some things like Cunning Sparkmage, your results will be much better.

@kerbdsl

From a previous article

"I decided that I wanted to win the Czech Pile matchup via virtual card advantage (i.e. not by out-grinding, but by invalidating opposing resources, effectively putting myself ahead). 4 copies of Crusader and 2 Recruiters to find them meant that I would very consistently be able to stick a very difficult to remove threat that didn’t get bogged down by Baleful Strix and other small chump blockers. While my opponent would likely have a couple of answers in the 75, I had a long-term gameplan. Previously, I had used SoLaS to push through Strix as well as recoup card advantage, but that was no longer needed. Which lead into change two…"

Gideon is about our best option as far as anthems go, unfortunately.

While I'd like another flier or two, sacrifices have to be made somewhere. I made my choice.

[Balanced]

@Balanced

My thoughts on the matchup are here. (http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?page_id=685)


Id actually already looked at that, I was more curious as to how youve been boarding with your 4 crusader build specifically.

From my experiences, winning the match several times in local metas and larger tourneys, I highly recommend going -4 Thalia -4 Aether Vial, and keeping the BS. Vial is too slow, and BS is an occasional get em (in that it can keep you alive after an early NO) when you naturally have it in hand and SFM in play. The match requires very tight play, and game 1 is generally a loss, but the matchup can be recovered in games 2 and 3 with light luck and appropriate pressure to key green men. Thats been my experience.

[Medea_]

@Balanced

I almost never cut Vials. I think it's the best card in the deck, not close. I'm also sort of surprised you have 8 cards you want to bring in.

Currently, I'd do something like -4 Thalia, +2 Containment Priest, +2 Ethersworn Canonist. I'd consider cutting two slow cards for Council's Judgment if I saw my opponent was on the turbo Progenitus plan.

[Balanced]

@Balanced

I almost never cut Vials. I think it's the best card in the deck, not close. I'm also sort of surprised you have 8 cards you want to bring in.

Currently, I'd do something like -4 Thalia, +2 Containment Priest, +2 Ethersworn Canonist. I'd consider cutting two slow cards for Council's Judgment if I saw my opponent was on the turbo Progenitus plan.

Your councils and paths would both be better, though that is still 1-2 cards slower than the versions I played, and a second sanctum would be better still though it wasn't in your list. I actually usually cut 9 cards, bringing in two council's, 1 path, 1 gut shot, 2 canonist, 2 containment priest, and the 2nd prelate. In my lists I usually had a dead 9th card (like Mangara), but there is a justification for batterskull if you prefer it, though I like to maximize equipment and lifegain is relevant. Council's can hit null rod as well as progenitus, and can pick off utility creatures in the mid game, which is where you want the match to go. In my experience with this match you are dead 90% on game 1, favored without incredibly unlucky hands game 2, and slightly unfavored game 3 due to their ability to nut draw a turn ahead of your tempo / denial. You are dead to a turn 3 glimpse roll into non-NO hoof pretty much at all times, but those games are more far and between than the flood the board or NO ones which are winnable and easier to prevent respectively. In the first turns you want to see removal against their dorks then priority is Jitte obviously, but also getting SOFI in hand almost immediately in hand as a backup as they'll often take out jitte after you've connected once. I'm also happy with heavy removal / wasteland hands if I don't see SFM or equipment. I personally like to get BS on the board as step 3 and start gaining life to protect against hoof / trample, while trying to get as many lock pieces on board as possible with moms to protect them. I have a lot of respect for Quiron Ranger in this matchup and keep a sharp eye on it, as when I do still lose it's usually to the annoying utility of that creature and its ability to fight against resource denial.

The meta is probably a little friendlier to double path as in your lists right now with all the Deathrite nonsense, but I've always had a soft spot for gut shot as it really makes a difference in Elves, Infect, and the mirror, as well as against pyromancer/delver and dredge (kill your own dude to eliminate bridges). Gut shotting with one land up and Thalia in play against Infect is always a surprise get 'em that they are unprepared for.

[J ♥ 5]

@Balanced

I almost never cut Vials. I think it's the best card in the deck, not close. I'm also sort of surprised you have 8 cards you want to bring in.

Currently, I'd do something like -4 Thalia, +2 Containment Priest, +2 Ethersworn Canonist. I'd consider cutting two slow cards for Council's Judgment if I saw my opponent was on the turbo Progenitus plan.

Yeah the only match up I cut vials in is Nic Fit.
Against elves i'm usually doing the above, plus cutting 3 other cards (frequently moms as you only really have to dodge some abrupt decays) to bring in 1 path & 2 judgments. extra single target removal is key

[Raizen884]

I play from both sides, more on the elf side actually... But cutting mom's is not really good actually in my opinion. Before I would cut her, but training this MU much more, and playing it from the other side, the games without mom, Rec Sage runs over DnT, mom has a big big role in this MU.

@Balanced: The MU is not 50/50, even overboarding things, a good elves pilot vs a good DnT pilot will be in the 70/30 bar, gut shot is a bad card, that can in some fringe spaces be good here in this MU. The reason why this MU is not 50/50 is very simple, DnT can not stop the mana production elves create, so eventually elves will have a lot of mana, there is no way unless some extremely specific hate card, that with average draws the elf player won't be able to hardcast the Hoof and just win. There is no hate card that stops that, and I'm saying hardcasting taking in consideration you have Ethersworn canonist, mother of runes protecting her and lets say Grafdigger's Cage to end both the glimpse/visionary combo and the GSZ/NO kill, AND hope he doesn't have Abrupt/Rec Sage AND hope he doesn't have mana or hoof to hardcast it, that is the ideal lock scenario, and you will need Jitte to clear the board and close the game. Legacy is that, decks need to attack from some sort of angle and other decks attack from an angle that simply doesn't care what you do, elves does exactly that in this MU.

Resuming, the MU is very winnable, but it is not good, cutting vials is not that bad actually, but what exactly does come in that are better than the Vials? Batterskull is easily much worse in this MU than the Vials. Council's Judgment is soooo bad in this MU unless you hit Progenitus (which like very few lists run now), it takes like your whole turn to hit... a 1/1 elf, path is also a C- card on the MU.

[Balanced]

@Balanced: The MU is not 50/50, even overboarding things, a good elves pilot vs a good DnT pilot will be in the 70/30 bar, gut shot is a bad card, that can in some fringe spaces be good here in this MU. The reason why this MU is not 50/50 is very simple, DnT can not stop the mana production elves create, so eventually elves will have a lot of mana, there is no way unless some extremely specific hate card, that with average draws the elf player won't be able to hardcast the Hoof and just win. There is no hate card that stops that, and I'm saying hardcasting taking in consideration you have Ethersworn canonist, mother of runes protecting her and lets say Grafdigger's Cage to end both the glimpse/visionary combo and the GSZ/NO kill, AND hope he doesn't have Abrupt/Rec Sage AND hope he doesn't have mana or hoof to hardcast it, that is the ideal lock scenario, and you will need Jitte to clear the board and close the game. Legacy is that, decks need to attack from some sort of angle and other decks attack from an angle that simply doesn't care what you do, elves does exactly that in this MU.

Resuming, the MU is very winnable, but it is not good, cutting vials is not that bad actually, but what exactly does come in that are better than the Vials? Batterskull is easily much worse in this MU than the Vials. Council's Judgment is soooo bad in this MU unless you hit Progenitus (which like very few lists run now), it takes like your whole turn to hit... a 1/1 elf, path is also a C- card on the MU.

I suppose we have different opinions on the MU. With tight play and my boarding strategies I have found it to be much better than other people's experiences, and that's after jamming many games. I'll leave it at that.

[Mad Mat]

The downside of vial in the elf match-up is that playing the vial makes you skip a turn you could have caged, needled, plowed or pathed, while it only really pays off as soon as you get it on 2. That turn may be critical, as elves can win turn two (not very often) or set up an almost unstoppable turn 3 (quite often). But that doesn't weigh up against the upside of making aggressive port and wastes a possibility, and also allowing you to play your removal spells later on while still adding pressure/hatebears to the board in the same turn. In the elves match-up, you'll very often be constrained on mana. Therefore, you can't board out your best solution to that problem. Vial also greatly contributes to your chances to survive the midgame when you make it that far. You may increase your chances of losing against their aggressive, powerful hands, but you also increase your chances of winning against their slower, value hands, which are the games we should aim to win as the former are mostly lost causes anyway.

I also don't like boarding out mom, because mom + canonist is almost impossible for them to get rid of, while canonist on its own is still vulnerable to any GSZ. Thalia is by far the worst card and easiest cut. There's something to say for cutting batterskull, but in some games you just need its stabilizing effect vs aggro and its minimal mana investment off of stoneforge compared to the others (+ being less vulnerable to null rod), so I'd rather cut some low-impact beaters like Flickerwisp, Mirran Crusader or Serra Avenger. All mainly serve to race your opponent or carry equipment through symbiote and have a little extra boon attached (wisp can do relevant disruption/protection off of vial, crusader can't be decayed and is more brutal with equipment, avenger comes down earlier from vial and is better in an aggro race), but feel like the weakest and most redundant cards in the match-up.

Council's Judgment can be included, but I think it will just be either win-more or not-enough most of the time, as you will use it mostly to kill a one mana elf. Still, the ability to immediately deal with a Nissa, Progenitus, Null Rod or Sylvan Library is not that fringe and unimportant. The question is whether you can afford to cut more cards to make room for the Judgments. Beyond thalia, you don't really have anything that is absolutely terrible in the match-up, so you will have to cut cards that still play a role in your overall strategy. And then you might be diluting your deck's strategy too much just to have extra answers that will only rarely matter.

In my tournament record I can recall, I think I'm about 5-2 against elves in matches. Most of my wins were due to my opponent missplaying (never feel overconfident in your good match-ups!) or due to blow-out hate pieces I was playing like Thalia HC and Orzhov Pontiff. I even countered a Natural Order with a Judge's Familiar once, although, in his defense, he couldn't make the extra mana anyway and he was facing an activated jitte + port next turn.

[J ♥ 5]

For the holidays, how about something a little more light? if you could put together a list of achievements for the deck, what would it include?

This came to me yesterday because I ended up in a game against Jund where the correct line was to equip batterskull to a Mother of Runes, which is a first for me in 4 years of playing the deck.

[iatee]

Can I ask how you board against Elves? I've been off DnT for about 6 months now, but when I was playing it regularly I reached a point where this match up felt 50-50 or better. I know that's not the traditional experience for most players.

I did have a couple unique sb choices though, so maybe that made the difference (1-2x Gut Shot).

I tested 2 Gut Shot in the board in vs a friend for a very large sample set of matches. It really didn't make a meaningful difference in the overall win %. Sometimes you have one and it buys you a turn. But Elves isn't Infect - removal doesn't win you the game on its own. Gut Shot is great vs Infect and okay in the mirror, but vs Elves it's just another card that does something. Which is fine, you want cards that do something. But just because you have some doesn't mean you win. You still need the stars to align. And I think anyone who doesn't understand this just hasn't played the match-up enough against competent players. We would all love to find that 'One Simple Trick that Elves Players HATE'. It doesn't exist.

Also cutting Vials because they're 'too slow' is such a bizarre way of looking at things. Your natural hands are slow, Vial is fast.

[colo]

In my experience, there's one thing (and one thing only!) that can help shore up the Elves!-matchup to make it a little less abysmal than what it normally is: Splashing. To be more precise: Having access to Perish, Engineered Plague, Sudden Demise, Orzhov Pontiff, or stuff like Goblin Sharpshooter. But even then, it's an uphill battle.

[Curby]

Note that of those, only Demise for 1 is faster than our mono-white options, e.g. Holy Light is a sweeper of sorts at cmc 3. Many of those splash cards are better than what we get in white, but they're still slow. We need 2-drop answers.

[colo]

Yes, Holy Light is also a very solid option that can even go the extra mile to deal with True-Name Nemesis. However, it will also clear the board of Phyrexian Revokers, which is usually an important piece versus Elves.

[Mad Mat]

Yes, Holy Light is also a very solid option that can even go the extra mile to deal with True-Name Nemesis. However, it will also clear the board of Phyrexian Revokers, which is usually an important piece versus Elves.
More importantly, you can't recruit for holy light. Playing a pontiff or a cunning sparkmage means you have 3 copies, not just 1.

[Medea_]

Humor me: Is Rest in Peace a reasonable sideboard card against Miracles?

[Moctzal]

Humor me: Is Rest in Peace a reasonable sideboard card against Miracles?

So it would hit Snapcaster Value and flipping Search for Azcanta? Am I missing anything else?

I don't love it, because I feel like D&T is firmly the aggro deck in the matchup.

I will say though, that Enevoldsen's Relic of Progenitus tech looks fairly useful here.

[iatee]

You don't beat blue control decks by replacing your cards with half a card. Relic is good for sure, if you play one, but RiP is not.

[Finn]

For the holidays, how about something a little more light? if you could put together a list of achievements for the deck, what would it include?

This came to me yesterday because I ended up in a game against Jund where the correct line was to equip batterskull to a Mother of Runes, which is a first for me in 4 years of playing the deck.

Really? I actually kind of like this play against decks with Liliana - like Jund. You are commonly left with only Mother of Runes and the games run long, so it happens with some frequency. Your power play is to attack (untapped) and then give protection. Before blocks, after. Whatever you need.

Actually, I think I have only ever done it against Jund.

[Whitefaces]

Humor me: Is Rest in Peace a reasonable sideboard card against Miracles?

From the Miracles side, absolutely not. If you're spending a card and two mana (on a non-creature for that matter) I'd be thrilled. Search isn't at its best in the matchup anyway, and Snaps are nice, but not a death knell losing them.

[Medea_]

Concerning RiP: That was my impression as well. I boarded it in a few times to try it out, as a list I was trying was short on board cards.

Unrelated, here's a holiday article (http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?p=1450) with all sorts of weird stuff from MTGO!

[Koke_MTG]

Concerning RiP: That was my impression as well. I boarded it in a few times to try it out, as a list I was trying was short on board cards.

Unrelated, here's a holiday article (http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?p=1450) with all sorts of weird stuff from MTGO!It was a pleasure to face you twice on MTGO man. Pretty nice games!

By the way, I do not feel that worse the matchup vs 4C Loam. I usually beat them with the 4 x Mirran Crusader version. My sideboard is quite good against them as well.

As for the rest of the matchups you consider as 'hard to beat', I think you need a second Sanctum Prelate in your 75. With her I usually do not find problems vs Lands and OmniSneak, even I find them as nice matchups. The pair of Palace Jailer I run helps as well.

Overall I think you could do a better use of those sideboard slots, because I do not think Surgicals are super necessary these days. BR Reanimator fell in popularity enough to not run them, and even with them you can be crushed anyway... I think the correct way to approach this kind of matchups is to think that if you can play magic you're gonna win because they are super bad out of their linear plan.

I do not think is a great scenario trying to stop holdups of decks that are not a big portion of the field by reducing utility slots for other matchups that you have to win and you have more options to do so and without depending of drawing specific hate.

And for that I do not see a lot for matchups like BR Reanimator, Dredge, Belcher, Elves and so when building a sideboard. I do not think it is worth. I only dedicate slots for them when I really like their function in other matchups I want to focus on and the plan they offer is good.

Enviado desde mi Aquaris X5 mediante Tapatalk

[Medea_]

@Koke_MTG

That last match we played was pretty nuts. I still don't believe I got that game one by holding the ground with Mom and Thalia for like 10 turns...

I agree that Surgical is falling out of favor. I think I'm more or less wanting a 3rd Rest in Peace in the 75. It just feels so good against most of the format right now. A second Prelate or a Leonin Relic-Warder would be good inclusions in those slots as well. I also wonder if the Crusader version should be playing a 24th land. The deck is heavy on WW cards in both the main and sideboard, and it's pretty easy to win most games where you don't get stuck on mana.

On the note of utility, I've actually been playing around with a RW build to gather some data on how it performs vs the Crusader build. I took Bahra's list from a 5-0 awhile back and incorporated a few elements I liked from Iatee's lists. It approaches some matchup differently, but has a ton of things going for it. Once I get to 100 matches or so, I'll do a big write up of my thoughts.

Lands
2 Cavern of Souls
3 Karakas
3 Plains
3 Plateau
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
1 Marsh Flats
1 Arid Mesa
2 Flooded Strand
1 Windsweapt Heath
Creatures
3 Flickerwisp
4 Mother of Runes
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Recruiter of the Guard
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Magus of the Moon
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Vryn Wingmare
1 Palace Jailer
Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Rest in Peace
Sideboard
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Path to Exile
2 Rest in Peace
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Containment Priest
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Cunning Sparkmage
2 Cataclysm

[Moctzal]

This list from "Egget" 5-0'd on MTGO a couple days back.

Any thoughts on the maindeck Relic of Progenitus?

I think I like it more than the maindeck Rest in Peace I've seen a little bit recently.

Upsides: 9th/13th potential turn 1 play (depending on how you view Swords to Plowshares), GY hate is effective (though perhaps not always good/great) against the majority of top tier decks, can cycle for another card if it's dead, opens up a bit more room for sideboard cards to come in more easily in some matchups.

Downsides: Dead against decks that don't use the graveyard. The floor is a 3 mana cycle if Thalia's on the board. It's not a creature that helps win the game. Can be low impact against GY heavy decks.

Maindeck:

4 Flickerwisp
3 Mirran Crusader
4 Mother of Runes
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Sanctum Prelate
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Karakas
5 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Snow-Covered Plains
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:

1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Cataclysm
1 Containment Priest
2 Council's Judgment
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Path to Exile
1 Pithing Needle
2 Rest in Peace
1 Sword of War and Peace

[EronRelentless]

I am currently testing the Judge's Familiar List and I made two 5-0 in Competetive Leagues in a row.

Decklist:
Artefacts
4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares

Lands
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Karakas
10 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port

Creatures
4 Judge's Familiar
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Flickerwisp
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Sanctum Prelate

Sideboard
2 Containment Priest
2 Council's Judgment
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Faerie Macabre
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Palace Jailer
2 Path to Exile
2 Rest in Peace
1 Sword of War and Peace

This Deck is a bit more havier than the classical Bird List, as it still has 2 Mirran Crusader (very good Card in the Meta) in the Main. The real benefit from the Judge's Famliar is that you are stronger against spell oriented Decks and have a decent chance against fast Combo Decks like Reanimator, Storm, Belcher and it improves the chances against Delver Strategies in Game 1 to dodge random Force of Wills and Dazes. If you have Turn 1 Bird and Turn 2 Thalia almost no Combo Deck can kill you without the nutiest of Nut Draws. I really like the Bird because it also improves the chances to dodge a Kolaghan's Command from Control Decks long enough until you can Wasteland them out or protect it with a Flickerwisp. On top of it, it is a great Creature to equip and it's not that easy to block it, especially not with TNN.

I am thinking about going down to 22 Lands because I cut the Palace Jailer from the Maindeck, but maybe we have to change the Batterskull with another Sword for the Sideboard for that as well. What do you think about the 22 Lands with the smaller Creature Base?

[silasteamtop]

This list from "Egget" 5-0'd on MTGO a couple days back.

Any thoughts on the maindeck Relic of Progenitus?

I think I like it more than the maindeck Rest in Peace I've seen a little bit recently.

Upsides: 9th/13th potential turn 1 play (depending on how you view Swords to Plowshares), GY hate is effective (though perhaps not always good/great) against the majority of top tier decks, can cycle for another card if it's dead, opens up a bit more room for sideboard cards to come in more easily in some matchups.

Downsides: Dead against decks that don't use the graveyard. The floor is a 3 mana cycle if Thalia's on the board. It's not a creature that helps win the game. Can be low impact against GY heavy decks.

Maindeck:

4 Flickerwisp
3 Mirran Crusader
4 Mother of Runes
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Sanctum Prelate
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Karakas
5 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Snow-Covered Plains
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:

1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Cataclysm
1 Containment Priest
2 Council's Judgment
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Path to Exile
1 Pithing Needle
2 Rest in Peace
1 Sword of War and Peace

I do not think it's a good Relic and other cards that get targeted at the player with Leovold en masse on this metagane

[Medea_]

@Moctzal

We are at the point where maindeck graveyard hate is reasonable. I'm playing maindeck RiP at this point and am 100% on board with it. Of the 22 times I have drawn it in game 1, it has only been dead 3 times. It often surprises me with its relevance in places where I thought it would do nothing. For example, I played a match against Eldrazi where it blanked two triggers from Matter Reshapers. You also just mise a ton of wins by having it when you get paired against things like Lands, Dredge, and Reanimator.

@EronRelentless

I like going up a Crusader in that build; aggressive opposing threats like Goyf were a problem when I played my version. For similar reasons, I'm not sure that you can cut the Batterskull.

It's reasonable to go down a land in that build, but if you do so, it might be time to streamline the sideboard as well. In the more fair matches where you'd want to board in Gideon and Council's Judgment (increasing the average cmc of your deck quite a bit), you'll probably notice the loss of that land over time. At that point, you might want to consider changes like Leonin Relic-Warder or Disenchant over Council's Judgment. I also played a miser's Orzhov Pontiff in my build off two Caverns and Scrubland and quite liked it.

[EronRelentless]

@EronRelentless

I like going up a Crusader in that build; aggressive opposing threats like Goyf were a problem when I played my version. For similar reasons, I'm not sure that you can cut the Batterskull.

It's reasonable to go down a land in that build, but if you do so, it might be time to streamline the sideboard as well. In the more fair matches where you'd want to board in Gideon and Council's Judgment (increasing the average cmc of your deck quite a bit), you'll probably notice the loss of that land over time. At that point, you might want to consider changes like Leonin Relic-Warder or Disenchant over Council's Judgment. I also played a miser's Orzhov Pontiff in my build off two Caverns and Scrubland and quite liked it.

Indeed you are right, did not think about the SB while planning for the lower Land count. We obviously need to trim or even cut Gideon then.

Another question for me is, which Sword fits more into my Deck.
Sword of Light and Shadow can has more synergies with the Bird and ETB effects, but maybe with the rise of Miracles the War and Peace is the better Sword at the moment and Mirran Crusader with it can end Games with one attack.
In my opinion DnT profits a lot from the rise of Miracles and maybe we need to plan more for the mirror Matches in the next few months.
Which Sword do you like more for the DnT Mirror?

[Medea_]

@EronRelentless

SoWaP is hands down a better card in the mirror and I like having it around with Miracles picking up steam. I'm not sure how much the SoLaS and Judge's Familiar synergy matters. By the time we get SoLaS online (turn 4 minimum, likely later more realistically), is recurring Judge's Familiar still important? In the context of matches where you would bring in SoLaS (e.g. mirror, Miracles, Maverick, Stoneblade, Czech), I'm sort of hoping that I have better things to be doing.

[iatee]

In my opinion DnT profits a lot from the rise of Miracles and maybe we need to plan more for the mirror Matches in the next few months.
Which Sword do you like more for the DnT Mirror?

I think Nu-Miracles is actually pretty strong vs vanilla DnT. Search for Azcanta is good against mana denial, since it both lets them hit their land drops and then actually ramps them, which feels somehow unjust. Playing fewer Counterbalance means they don't have as many dead cards g1 and you don't get the free g2/3s from people who didn't sideboard them out. Revoker is less of a powerhouse since it does nothing early and it's now just a card that reads 'That JTMS can't be activated...please don't have a STP'.

[Eldrazi Grandfather]

I think d&t is a very hard mu for miracles; I play both decks and the mu is easy 60/40 for d&t

[silasteamtop]

I think d&t is a very hard mu for miracles; I play both decks and the mu is easy 60/40 for d&t

It will be. I think it is in progress on both sides according to the player. Callum Smith in her guide on the New Miracles sets the game off as just avoiding the Vial and Mother + Prelate in 6. In my little experience is balanced. In some games, they have everything as answers.

[Whitefaces]

It will be. I think it is in progress on both sides according to the player. Callum Smith in her guide on the New Miracles sets the game off as just avoiding the Vial and Mother + Prelate in 6. In my little experience is balanced. In some games, they have everything as answers.

It's a he :wink:

I think DnT is an extremely favourable matchup for Miracles, in fact it's one of the best.

[EronRelentless]

Well I think the Matchup against Miracles is pretty even, depending on the players it's 40:60 or 60:40 kind of.
What I meant is not that it's a very good Matchup or so, but the result of the Metagame is good for DnT, for example there are a lot less Elves we see theses days and the Metagame is more clear than before with many 5-8 % Decks.

Yesterday I also piloted the Judge's Familiar List i've posted very successful in the Legacy Challenge with a Game Win Rate of 81% after Swiss Rounds, only lost to Dredge after Mulligans to 5 in both post board Games with a timely Therapy for my RiP and to Burn in the Semifinals. Unfortunately I was playing around Smash the Smithereens when he had 3 Cards in hand and did nothing with my Jitte in my hand. Don't know what was coming into my mind, but I was quite to slow and he did not had a single Smash, instead he had several Fireblasts and a Sulfuric Vortex, in the end I was just 1 Turn too slow. Could have won easy with my Jitte though, but tried without and failed.

The Bird was very good against 4C Control Decks as well. A couple times he did not had the Mana to cast Kolaghan's Command or Toxic Deluge with a Thalia in play. I am very confidant with my List at the moment, but it cripples more to Dread of Night than Stock Lists, but we do not see it in a lot of Sideboards these days.

[PerfectTempo]

I was wondering why have a lot of the mono white list dropped Horizon Canopy?

[EronRelentless]

I was wondering why have a lot of the mono white list dropped Horizon Canopy?

I am not sure if this is the right move as well. With Miracles and 4C Control there are two grindy Matchups on the top Tier of the Meta and it should be reasonable to play Canopy or even Mishra's Factory in that slot.

[Marungo]

Been absent here playing Miracles for the past 6 weeks. It’s been a nice change of pace and the deck is fun as hell. Didn’t even know that it was gonna become a DTB, but it’s cool nonetheless. Just dropping in to give my two cents on things.

1) Miracles is favored in the matchups all things equal. Played both decks in the matchup. Felt unfavored playing DNt and was worried that when playing miracles I would lose or play poorly. However I also crushed DNt in the matchup. There’s too many answers and a good miracles player should win in my opinion. SoWaP changes things postbosrd, but not enough.

2) Maindeck R.I.P. guys?... really?

[Whitefaces]

Been absent here playing Miracles for the past 6 weeks. It’s been a nice change of pace and the deck is fun as hell. Didn’t even know that it was gonna become a DTB, but it’s cool nonetheless. Just dropping in to give my two cents on things.

1) Miracles is favored in the matchups all things equal. Played both decks in the matchup. Felt unfavored playing DNt and was worried that when playing miracles I would lose or play poorly. However I also crushed DNt in the matchup. There’s too many answers and a good miracles player should win in my opinion. SoWaP changes things postbosrd, but not enough.

2) Maindeck R.I.P. guys?... really?

Agree on 1) and 2), Sword of protection from white is very good.

MD Relic isn't the worse, but RIP is not something a deck like DnT with no filtering can afford imo. Even if it has some applications, like vs Miracles kinda turning off Search and Snaps, it's low impact in a lot of them and you're trading a card for some effectiveness vs the opposing deck. Sure some matchup you'll look like a genius, but it's easier to remember them than the ones where it's dead or very low impact.

[Mad Mat]

Rest in Peace might have been considerable main in the grixis meta, but now our topless terminators have found Azcanta, those archetypes are going to take a big drop. There's just not that many good things you can do about an enchantment that turns into a game-breaking land, if you have a greedy manabase and few or no decays.

Topless miracles is a worse match-up for us than the pre-ban version, because now they lack the dead draws of counterbalance and extra tops. We also have less interactions with their cantrips because we can't revoke them and portent is a very nasty set-up for terminus or mana screws. Azcanta is not as bad for us as it is for other archetypes, but it still ramps to help them out of mana problems and wins them the game if we can't race it or keep up a wasteland. Still, I think it's closer to 50-50, depending on player skill and how the decks are built (like mentor main or not, crusader count, legendaries count, sideboard slots).

[Moctzal]

Humor me: Is Rest in Peace a reasonable sideboard card against Miracles?

Similar question, is Ethersworn Canonist a board in vs Miracles now?

[Medea_]

Regarding RiP in the main:

I'm keeping statistics on how it performs. When I hit 100 matches or so, I'll do a write up. I've been very pleased with it thus far.

Regarding Miracles:

I'm 1-2 against it with the 4x Crusader build and 1-2 against it with the RW build.

Regarding Canonist:

You *could* bring in Canonist against Miracles if you don't have anything better to be doing. It doesn't feel great, I can speak from experience there. I currently board in one Canonist in the matchup with the RW build since I have 7 cards I want to pull out but only 6 good cards to bring in.

[iatee]

RiP in the main seems like something that would be nuts to do in most real life metas or a large tournament but might be okay online, where Deathrite+Reanimator make up a pretty healthy share of the decks.

I have a pretty good record vs Miracles overall, but I think my build (3 Cavern, 2 P&K in the 75, extra Recruiter in the board) is kinda lopsided towards beating slower decks. And even with a deck built like this, it's not an auto-win.

I do think playing a 3rd Recruiter in the board should be something Mono-W players try more. It doesn't win the Miracles match-up on its own or anything, but it does push you in the right direction, and unlike things like Gideon, Cataclysm, it can come in for a pretty wide range of match-ups (it's always gonna be better than one of your maindeck cards vs combo, it's pretty insane in the mirror, etc. etc.)

[Medea_]

Here's another card (https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/198461748922023936/398465441938407424/Slaughter_the_Strong_RU.png) that falls into the "huh, that's interesting but probably not good enough pile."

Reddit translation:
Slaughter the Strong 1WW
Sorcery
Each player chooses any number of creatures he or she controls with total power 4 or less, then sacrifices the rest.

[colo]

Very interesting (but not necessarily useful :)) card design imo; kinda like the lovechild of Retribution of the Meek and Cataclysm :)


If one's looking for an opportunity to play Rest in Peace main, I don't think it's going to be in D&T. A local player here paired it with Energy Field, Luminarch Ascension, and Helm of Obedience this week in an oddly effective UW control shell.

[piroko139]

Dire Fleet Daredevil (http://mythicspoiler.com/rix/cards/direfleetdaredevil.html)

So, I've been looking at this thing for a while, and am debating the use of it in RW. The argument for it is written in the text box. It's a Snapcaster esque-card, allowing for more value plays, especially with the use of Vial. It resembles Flickerwisp in that sense, where the card is merely fine on it's front side, but insane with a Vial on its respective number. This is all in addition to other benefits like First Strike or it's Human type (which in RW matters more since it normally runs more Caverns).

The downside is worth discussing if it's significant enough though. From what I'm assuming, if a Vial is in play, it will be there to counter Snapcaster targets (or Deathrite Shaman targets, to an extent), using a cantrip (use of a Brainstorm or Ponder is amplified through RW having fetches), or using a removal spell. The issue is that it's all spells, and Thalia provides a small nonbo in that sense. Also you are reliant on the opponent actually using spells, so the card is probably relagated to the sideboard because of it.

Either way, I think the card is worth at least testing to see how it plays out. Maybe I just want to Brainstorm + Fetch in DnT because I don't get to do so normally anyways.

[Medea_]

@colo

Yeah, the card is very interesting. I quite like the design space they explored with it.

@piroko139

The cards that are worth splashing are cards that are absolute haymakers. Magus threatens to end the game immediately. Sparkmage can take over a creature matchup. Pia and Kiran presents end game inevitability against control. Orzhov Pontiff does stupid things against many difficult scenarios involves a bunch of Elves, tokens, or True-Name Nemesis.

This pirate provides the possibility of doing a bunch of *interesting* things, but I don't think it is going to consistently have the same level of "oomph" as the other splash cards. There are already similar cards (Dualcaster Mage, Phyrexian Metamorph) that allow for the same sort of flexibility, but they don't make the cut. It's also not great in a Rest in Peace deck.

[J ♥ 5]

@EronRelentless I've kept an eye on your Judge's Familiar lists for the last couple weeks and took it for a spin at my weekly yesterday.

overall it felt really good, it was only 4 rounds but having extra fliers, early plays against storm, and getting to force spike someone off vial all really convinced me to test this a bit more. Might see me on in the challenge with it this weekend :)

[iatee]

I think the problem with Dire Fleet Daredevil is that it's too hard to predict what it's going to do in any given game. The ceiling for the card's power level is very high, it's Snapcaster-esque (especially out of Aether Vial) - but Snapcaster decks know that they're going to have Snapcaster targets and it's a little too hard to predict what this guy is gonna do for you in any given game. The card Abbot of Keral Keep is kinda in a similar space - it has good stats, but it's just a little too unpredictable. I might play with one in the board just for fun though, it seems like it would be pretty consistently good vs Miracles at least.

[J ♥ 5]

RE: Daredevil
no-one is doubting how sweet it is though right? i'm definitely playing 4 for a couple weeks just for fun.

[Medea_]

RE: Daredevil
no-one is doubting how sweet it is though right? i'm definitely playing 4 for a couple weeks just for fun.

The card is totes sweet. It will do many story-worthy things.

[Medea_]

I'll be streaming in like 15 minutes if anyone is looking for something to do tonight. link (https://www.twitch.tv/deathandtaxesftw)

Edit: Stream went very well, feel free to check out the video (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/215787464).

MORE EDITS!: Now I have a Youtube Channel and a few more details up as well. Link. (http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?p=1486)

Even more edits: About to stream again at about 8:20 eastern time.

Edit^4: Going to do an afternoon stream starting in about 15 minutes. That's a little after 2:00 PM Eastern.

[FGCmtg]

Just reading through the last week or so of this thread, and as a miracles player I thought I'd just go ahead and support WhiteFaces' assertion that the matchup is very favourable for miracles. I think the only match losses I have to dnt at the moment are to my internet connection dying during a match, but feel free to correct me if you know otherwise.

SoWaP is irritating if you equip and hit, sure, but if you're doing that then you could probably hit us with SoFaI anyway as we'd stp in resp or instant speed terminus, block with snap for a turn to keep treading water etc etc. So yeah it's a good card, but only marginally better than SoFaI imo as if we're dying to one we'd probably die to the other.

Prelate + mother lock is the only real fear, as we need to find a council's judgment, and I guess cataclysm but the miracles player should keep in forces for vial and cataclysm/gideon anyway.

edit: spelling error

[Medea_]

I'm going to be streaming for most of this afternoon and evening; I randomly got the day off work. Shooting for two leagues this afternoon and one league this evening. Link. (https://www.twitch.tv/deathandtaxesftw)

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Is Recruiter + Flickerwisp chain not good against Miracles anymore?

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

[FGCmtg]

Is Recruiter + Flickerwisp chain not good against Miracles anymore?

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

It's fine, but Jace/Predict/Snapcaster draw so many cards that it's just not a big deal if we have to plow, snap, plow the recruiters and wisps.

The game is entirely about Jace and it doesn't matter how many cards get burnt as long as we put Jace into play and have it not die. At that point the card draw lets us tread water and make land drops til we can cast entreat.

Having access to multiple prelates I suspect would change things significantly. The dnt player naturally drawing prelate as opposed to fetching it with recruiter is much harder to beat, as the line isn't so obviously telegraphed. Also having prelate on 1 and 6 will have a similar effect to mother + prelate.

[Medea_]

Guest tournament report (http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?p=1491)

[redtwister]

It's fine, but Jace/Predict/Snapcaster draw so many cards that it's just not a big deal if we have to plow, snap, plow the recruiters and wisps.

The game is entirely about Jace and it doesn't matter how many cards get burnt as long as we put Jace into play and have it not die. At that point the card draw lets us tread water and make land drops til we can cast entreat.

Having access to multiple prelates I suspect would change things significantly. The dnt player naturally drawing prelate as opposed to fetching it with recruiter is much harder to beat, as the line isn't so obviously telegraphed. Also having prelate on 1 and 6 will have a similar effect to mother + prelate.

More Prelates might shore up the OmniShow match as well.

[Medea_]

Streaming momentarily with RW Taxes. (https://www.twitch.tv/deathandtaxesftw)

[staticgripped]

I personally am really struggling with the Lands matchup as Mono W. I was wondering what people were doing to combat that, I've been considering Cataclysm over Gideon as most the fair BUG matchups feel like byes with 4 crusader. Additionally, I might trying fitting a second Prepare into the 75.

Thanks in advance

[Medea_]

I personally am really struggling with the Lands matchup as Mono W. I was wondering what people were doing to combat that, I've been considering Cataclysm over Gideon as most the fair BUG matchups feel like byes with 4 crusader. Additionally, I might trying fitting a second Prepare into the 75.

Thanks in advance

I went 1-4 with the monowhite build against Lands in the 100 something matches I played. Both of those options are reasonable things to do and likely your best options in mono white. RiP #3 is also reasonable, especially if you aren't on Surgicals.

[Medea_]

Here's sort of a neat opportunity: ItisUnfair and I got paired last night while we both were streaming. If you're interested to hear the breakdown of a match from both sides from high level players, it's available. My side (D&T) is the first match in my stream here (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/217354776). His side (Miracles) is at about the 4 hour and 34 minutes mark of his video here (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/217279372).

[piroko139]

So, I threw caution to the wind and decided to try out a couple of Dire Fleet Daredevils in a couple of leagues yesterday (4-1 both times). So things I ended up doing.

I Cabal Therapied two of my Storm opponents.
I had Vial on 2 and had checked my Miracles opponent because they had a Counterspell in the graveyard.
I Thoughtseized a Pile opponent.
I Brainstormed + Fetch once or twice.

Things I had the opportunity to do, but didn't draw it or was already super far ahead:
Turn off threshold or shrink Grim Flayer/Tarmogoyf
Ambush a Snapcaster Mage cast
Have extra STP in the mirror
Hymn my Pile opponent
Flickerwisp it for extra value (the timing on this is awkward since I have to target an instant)

Probably the most important thing that it offered was another First Strike attacker. There was at least one instance where I shoved with it + held P&K activation. It's a much more disposable body after the trigger resolves than Thalia, so I felt a lot safer going into combat with it.

Sideboarding became more interesting because there were some matchups where Rest in Peace is marginal, but I was OK having Daredevil because of the body (like Miracles, where sometimes you bring in Ethersworn Canonist as a body that incidently stops Snapcaster activations.... this is kind of the same thing, but a better body), and other matchups where I wanted both because I was OK with the nonbos present in the deck already (Thalia makes the card awkward, so does Prelate on occasion, etc), since the red variant of the deck already has nonbos with Wasteland/Port + Magus. *shrug* if it wins the games who cares right?

So, like people have been suggesting, it's not the most consistent card, but it is the most fun I've had toying around with one since Aven Mindcensor.

If you were curious, the list I used was essentially the list that Medea has been championing on his streams, -Palace Jailer and -Rest in Peace in the main for the Daredevils. I haven't been terribly impressed with Palace Jailer for various reasons, and cutting Rest in Peace for the graveyard matters card makes sense to me. I'll continue toying around with it, if for no other reason because it's hilarious.

4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Dire Fleet Daredevil
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Recruiter of the Guard
3 Flickerwisp
1 Sanctum Prelate
2 Magus of the Moon
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar

4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

4 Swords to Plowshares

2 Cavern of Souls
3 Karakas
2 Plains
1 Snow-Covered Plains
3 Plateau
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
5 white Fetches

Sideboard:
3 Path to Exile
1 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Rest in Peace
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Cunning Sparkmage
2 Cataclysm
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I'll probably try it for funsies in the same slots as you. I agree about Jailer and I haven't cared for the RIP much either.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

[iatee]

That's interesting piroko139, I might play around with them this weekend. Did you ever have one vs an active DRS? When did it feel like a bad card?

[piroko139]

That's interesting piroko139, I might play around with them this weekend. Did you ever have one vs an active DRS? When did it feel like a bad card?I did not. I faced Pile twice when I played the leagues. The first time I got smashed. It was somewhere north of removal spells including KCommand, so I was both hellbent and empty boarded by the end of turn 6 or so. I don't believe in Daredevil without Vial in the Pile matchup so that is an awkward situation. I boarded it out when I was heavy on Rest in Peace in the boarded games, so the DRS I did see were 1 mana Squires anyways.

The second time I ran them over, Thoughtseizing them off Leovold. They did nothing the rest of the game iirc.

Mostly, it feels a lot like Flickerwisp where its value is entirely centric around Vial. It's fine without it, but it needs Vial to be truly good. I alluded to the weird interaction with Daredevil and Flickerwisp, but in a lot of cases, I'm OK with a 2/1 first striker that screws with their graveyard once in a while.

Although I haven't run into Reanimator yet, that probably feels miserable when it could be a RiP. Maybe that's OK given that it's not a huge percentage of the metagame.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[Medea_]

@piroko139

This didn't necessarily occur to me earlier, but this might not be the best for card a RiP deck to play. If you continue running these, you might want to consider things like Surgicals, Faerie Macabre, and Containment Priests over RiP.

[iatee]

I ran a few leagues with a 2 Daredevil build and didn't do too well, though the card was pretty great in a few spots.

The issues I found were:

a. Interaction with Thalia. This card is naturally a 3 drop if you don't have Vial and want to get any value, and it's a 4 drop if you do. There were a lot of 'if I draw one more mana I can do this cool play' situations where I didn't draw the mana. (One I remember was 'cast their Punishing Fire to get rid of it.')
b. Red mana. Vs Wasteland decks the RW splash builds don't want to expose their red mana sources until the turn you're gonna cast a Magus. You fetch basics early and basically play a Mono-W deck, until you're not. Increasing the number of red cards maindeck forces you to expose your red source early, which makes you noticeably softer to Wasteland mirrors.
c. Adds another x/1 to the deck.

That said, the card is legacy-power-level and when it was good it was a 2 for 1 with a decent body, which is what you want in a grindy matchup. It gives you access to a lot of weird dimensions new for this deck, but I think my original guess 'it's just a bit too random' might be correct in the end.

[DisgruntledElk]

I personally am really struggling with the Lands matchup as Mono W. I was wondering what people were doing to combat that, I've been considering Cataclysm over Gideon as most the fair BUG matchups feel like byes with 4 crusader. Additionally, I might trying fitting a second Prepare into the 75.

Thanks in advance

Hey Static, what is your 75? Seeing the whole list might help us diagnose what's going on?

Thanks,

[iatee]

I just 5-0'd with this one:

https://i.imgur.com/lSYiN29.gif

though FWIW it was kinda an unrepresentative league, played UR Delver 3 times and won a lot of games off Prelate.

[Moctzal]

So how crazy am I to want to start maindecking a second Prelate?

Seems like it might help shore up bad matchups like Miracles, Sneak & Show, and Lands, solidify Delver and Storm, turn off other random cards on random board states.

So it seems like a strong card against roughly half of the top decks in the format, similar to how often Mirran Crusader is a very good card.

(Disclaimer, I have a bunch of Punishing fire decks locally, so my list might be skewing towards trying to fight that)

Current Decklist for reference:

Maindeck:

4 Mother of Runes
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Serra Avenger
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Sanctum Prelate
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
2 Cavern of Souls
3 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
5 Plains
5 Snow-Covered Plains

Sideboard:

2 Path to Exile
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
2 Rest in Peace
2 Council's Judgment
1 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Cataclysm
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar

[IRS]

I just 5-0'd with this one:

https://i.imgur.com/lSYiN29.gif

though FWIW it was kinda an unrepresentative league, played UR Delver 3 times and won a lot of games off Prelate.

Comments on the performance of Direfleet Daredevil? seems pretty significant to be able to use opposing removal/cantrips.

[piroko139]

The times where it's amazing, it's probably the only thing in the deck that can win you the game. Otherwise, it's a 2/1 First Strike. I haven't had a middling performance of it yet. I suppose the game where I cast Reanimate on their Chancellor close, since I was going to win the game anyways.https://imgur.com/YIY2Bkd

However, your assumption of having more removal in creature matchups is accurate. There were a lot of times where it was just Nekrataal and was amazing. I'm liking it more and more I play with it (probably because it's just an incredibly fun card), but the more experienced players are right, it has wildly erratic results.

[iatee]

Yeah, it feels most consistently good vs Lightning Bolt decks so far, just because they reliably have Bolt-type-stuff in the yard and creatures in play. We would be playing a 2/1 Nekrataal for 2R vs those decks if it existed. Cantripping is also fine, though it generally doesn't feel like what you want this card to be doing. (I did enjoy Brainstorming + shuffling away 2 Thalias vs a Dread of Night though.)

Then you have the 'weird stuff' games, like reanimating their dude, or the other day I Crop Rotated vs Turbo Depths for a Karakas for a huge blowout. The value is just really hard to judge in those matchups because it has the capability for huge blowouts, but it also often doesn't have targets and it's pretty hard to predict. It is a lot of fun for sure, it kinda feels like playing cube, since you really have no idea what's going to happen every game.

[Medea_]

@iatee

Let me know if you think the card has real tournament potential after a few more leagues. I'm pretty skeptical about the consistency of that card, but I'll test it if I keep hearing that it is more than pulling its weight.

[iatee]

I think the card is worth testing seriously, I could see 1 copy ending up somewhere in the 75. I think I'm doing a tiny bit worse on average than I did with my previous list, but I think my previous build was already softer to combo than fair decks, and taking out Wingmare + Prelate didn't help. So I rebuilt it with them in it and I'm doing better. (I took out a SfM - it makes more sense to have this guy replace a 'fair deck' card.) The card definitely is legacy-powerful, it gets FoW'd and Thoughtseized quite a bit.

[Mad Mat]

[...]and it's pretty hard to predict[...]
Man, imagine using the guy to predict their terminus away...

[iatee]

Yeah, you can also Portent them.

[iatee]

Yeah, you can also Portent them. (One thing I realized while playing - vs Snapcaster decks, it's safer to target sorceries.)

[IRS]

Yeah, you can also Portent them. (One thing I realized while playing - vs Snapcaster decks, it's safer to target sorceries.)

Yeah, I thought about this as well.

However, it would seem like this is actually pretty insane versus Delver decks as it effectively turns their bolts on them. Giving us more removal + a 2-1 first strike that can eat pyromancer and tokens for days is pretty awesome.

Versus Pile it also seems pretty strong as they have a ton of cards we can steal for value (Removal, Cantrips, Night's Whisper, Hymn to Tourach (!!))

Versus Miracles, you can muck up their terminus/predicts.

And the best part is that the dude does not have to survive to provide net positive value, so it appears to have a lot of potential. Looking forward to more testing on it (im in process of getting some copies in paper)

Versus Storm (if you survive to cast) you can use their discard against them also!

[iatee]

Yeah there's a lot of 'you could do this in theory' type situations vs combo decks (exile any spell at instant speed with Vial, even if you don't plan on casting it.) But combo decks are generally low on interaction. In practice, most of the time this is gonna be a souped up Elvish Visionary.

Vs Pile this guy is great if everything goes right, but as the DRS + Snapcaster deck they're the most likely to have an instant speed response to eat your value. It's also another x/1, and Lili Last Hope seems like she's been growing in popularity. Still, if the game grinds it's one of the few cards you want to topdeck, and you don't have to worry about fetching Plateaus early, which is nice. I have successfully cast Kolaghan's Command, and that felt pretty good.

[kinda]

Anyone have a Wr list with multiple direfleet daredevils they like after testing? Card seems bonkers with vial. There really isn't anything it's bad against. Even vs lands you can exhile loam or grab a can trip or counter vs sneak.

[J ♥ 5]

Anyone have a Wr list with multiple direfleet daredevils they like after testing? Card seems bonkers with vial. There really isn't anything it's bad against. Even vs lands you can exhile loam or grab a can trip or counter vs sneak.

iatee just posted a RW list on the last page :)

[ChrisCunningham]

Just remember Revoker is a solid maindeckable card because it is a creature that is rarely dead except in situations where anything else we played would be equally-dead. Daredevil might end up fitting the same justification (I've only played a few matches with it, so I don't know yet, but I sure enjoyed Duressing storm and bolting a Swiftspear).

My first draft maindeck was the same as iatee's but -1 Jailer +1 Flickerwisp, -1 Cavern +1 Port. I still want to play like 6 Flickerwisps, especially in a version that adds another ETB value effect in the 2drop slot. It's possible his manabase is right, 1R is hard.

[Medea_]

New article on RW Taxes! (http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?p=1504)

[iatee]

Just remember Revoker is a solid maindeckable card because it is a creature that is rarely dead except in situations where anything else we played would be equally-dead. Daredevil might end up fitting the same justification (I've only played a few matches with it, so I don't know yet, but I sure enjoyed Duressing storm and bolting a Swiftspear).

My first draft maindeck was the same as iatee's but -1 Jailer +1 Flickerwisp, -1 Cavern +1 Port. I still want to play like 6 Flickerwisps, especially in a version that adds another ETB value effect in the 2drop slot. It's possible his manabase is right, 1R is hard.

Yeah there is a tension between this becoming a mono-humans deck (so you want as many Caverns as possible) and an etb value deck (so you want as many Flickerwisps as possible.)

I am not 100% sold in any direction on this card yet but I could see the right number being 1 in the end.

[Medea_]

I'm planning on streaming WRb Taxes tonight at ~7:00 Eastern time. Link. (https://www.twitch.tv/deathandtaxesftw)

[Medea_]

I'm planning on streaming in about an 2 and a half hours (1:00 EST) due to a snow day. Link. (https://www.twitch.tv/deathandtaxesftw)

Edit: I got another snowday, so I'll have another snow day stream tomorrow at 1:00 PM EST.

[Copperhead]

New article on RW Taxes! (http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?p=1504)

Awesome write-up! Thanks for all of your hard work as always. How did Palace Jailer work out (or not)? I'm wondering if room could be made by cutting that.

[Medea_]

Awesome write-up! Thanks for all of your hard work as always. How did Palace Jailer work out (or not)? I'm wondering if room could be made by cutting that.

Palace Jailer is fine. I'm rarely overly impressed with it, but I'm not sad to have it in the deck. Sometimes it takes a game over, sometimes it loses you a game when you lose the crown.

[EtwasSteIne]

Hello there,

today I participated in a tournament in Tübingen, Germany. In 6 rounds I played the following 75:

4 AEther Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Flickerwips
1 Magus of the Moon
4 Mirran Crusader
4 Mother of Runes
1 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Sanctum Prelate
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

4 Swords to Plowshares

3 Cavern of Souls
3 Karakas
9 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

// SB
1 Sword of War and Peace
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Rest in Peace
2 Path to Exile
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Cataclysm
2 Council's Judgment


Here is a small report of today:

Match 1: Punishing Jund

Game 1: My opponent had a stable mana base, an answer for my t1 Mom and punishing fire combined with Grove of the Burnwillows.
Game 2: Again he killed the t1 Mom and t2 Rest in Peace. No chance to win here.

Match 2: Nic Fit (GBU)

Game 1: Two Swords for two Veteran Explorer were great and Sword of Fire and Ice finished the game for me.
Game 2: I took a greedy hand with only one Land but Vial, Mom and removal. That was not good enough.
Game 3: I lost RIP and a few creatures to Pernicious Deed but Crusader + Jitte while porting his black land won me the game. Pretty unexpectet for me to win this matchup.

Match 3: Belcher

Game 1: I saw 14 Goblins on T1 and conceded without playing a card.
Game 2: My opponent had enough mana and casted a t1 Burning Wish while controlling a Lion's Eye Diamond. He waited for me to respond to the Wish. I had nothing to interact. The problem was: it was too late for him to crack LED.
Game 3: Not much hope for me on the draw but fortunately he was not able to draw an additional mana source for 2 turns. So Thalia sealed the deal.

Match 4: Grixis Delver

Game 1: Delver on the draw and a mull to 5 on my side is not my game.
Game 2: This time my opponent had to mull and I drew enough removal.
Game 3: T2 True-Name Nemesis and bolt in the end were one turn too fast for me on the draw.

Match 5: Grixis Delver

Game 1: Delver on the draw was too fast.
Game 2: Delver on the play was a save win with batterskull (25 life for me).
Game 3: Again delver on the draw killed me with a bolt one turn before I could finish him.

Match 6: Maverick

Game 1: I had to mull to 5 and lost to Jitte and Sword.
Game 2: Very long and grindy game... Zealous Persecution broke my board. Batterskull pushed me up to 37 life but seeing only 1 Judgement and 1 crusader (no other sb-card, no other removal) in 26 cards was not winable.

Final result: 2-4-0

pros
- First tournament after 4 years
- good location and nice people
- Mirran Crusader was very very good

cons
- Magus of the Moon was terrible (even though it was castable without Plateau).
- Sanctum Prelate was bad because I did not play against SnT or control-decks
- losing four games against "fair" decks like Delver

summary
- I will try more Phyrexian Revoker md and another Path to Exile in the board.
- Maybe a Council's Judgement could be playable in the main.

How do you guys win vs delver on the draw? Mull for StP?

Feel free to comment my card-choices. :-)

Greetings
Stephan

[Emurian]

How do you guys win vs delver on the draw? Mull for StP?


Greetings
Stephan

Most delver decks run around 15 creatures versus our 27 orso on average. In general, Delver tries to stick 1 threath, then protect it with spells. Thing is, if you are able to remove that threath, they need to dig again for another one to try and stick.

I wouldn't mull agressively for an STP, its a solid card to see in your opening hand though. I tend to have 2 path to exile in my SB that I also bring in with this matchup postboard.

If they go (on the play) dual, delver. Your turn: land STP, they go Daze in response. Well thats it, you lost the gamble. Note that most Delver players board out dazes after game 1. I still rather take the gamble T1 by removing their threath, then waiting turn 2 to fire off an STP with a 2nd land as backup. The only time I would do this is if I can stick a vial T1, followed by a STP T2.

Just keep reasonable hands, if you have a mom T1, thats fine, if they have removal they are going to play it ASAP on the mom. Leaving the path open to try and stick a T2 Thalia instead. Thalia is pretty decent overall versus Delver, and messes up the tempo game they are trying to play.

If you only have SFM as T2, go for a sword over Bskull, if you go Bskull they most likely remove the SFM, leaving you with a dead piece of equipment in your hand.

Delver games can go both ways, I dont have the feeling Delvers are a bad MU for our deck. I have had games that lasted 7 turns, and I have had games that lasted 45 turns (was grixis delver) It is mostly the cumulation of multiple small errors on one side that might lead to a loss. Fair decks playing out vs eachother tend to reward the player with the most experience. Of course, luck is still a factor, no matter how good you are, if you need to mull to 5 because of no land hands your gonna fight an uphill battle and still lose in the end just because you are missing some gass to keep the pressure on. .

[piroko139]

Alright, well SCG Dallas came and went, and I was present.

The team I rolled up with was kinda last minute. I knew a Modern player who knew a Standard player that I didn’t meet until the morning of. In addition, he apparently didn’t have the cards for his deck, so I had to scrounge together what he ended up playing the morning I was leaving for Dallas. I was not amused.

Anyways, Legacy stuff. This is what I registered for the Open.

4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
2 Windswept Heath
1 Arid Mesa
1 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
3 Karakas
3 Cavern of Souls
3 Plateau
2 Plains
1 Snow-Covered Plains

4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Dire Fleet Daredevil
2 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Magus of the Moon
3 Flickerwisp
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Palace Jailer

Sideboard:
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Cataclysm
1 Containment Priest
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
2 Path to Exile
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Blessed Alliance
2 Surgical Extraction

I’m still pretty high on Dire Fleet Daredevil and decided that if I didn’t have a ton of confidence on doing well in the event, I might as well have as much fun as I can. Turns out it was as good a plan as any since neither of my teammates knew anything at all about Legacy, so I was often trying to 1v2 or 1v3 people. Also, another note, I tried out Medea’s advice of running Surgicals/Macabres in place of Rest in Peace due to Daredevil. Results were varied, but generally speaking, in the places where Surgical didn’t save me, Rest in Peace probably wouldn’t have either, so it’s probably a reasonable choice, even though it’s weird not registering Rest in Peace.
I’m trying to remember it offhand, but a few rounds were blurs.
Rd 1: Grixis Delver 2-0
Rd 2: ??? (I think Mono White DnT, don’t quote me on it) 2-0
Rd 3: Sneak and Show 0-2
I almost pulled it out through an Emrakul off Sneak Attack, but I punted one turn that I needed to Vial Flickerwisp a Mountain to buy an extra turn. Who would have guessed it was that important, but lesson learned.
Rd 4: Grixis Delver 2-0
Rd 5: UB Tezzerator 2-0
I got confused with turn 1 Darkslick Shore and had to ask if he was the Legacy player. He sure was, but apparently, the deck is cold to Magus of the Moon and Wasteland.
Rd 6: White Eldrazi 2-0
Rd 7: Punishing Abzan 1-1-1 (This matchup deserves its own story)
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=118329
Rd 8: Mono White DnT 1-1 (Didn’t finish the last game, as my team had lost at this point)
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=118309
Rd 9: Dropped after Round 8, because we were hungry, cranky and out of day 2 contention anyways. Our last two opponents went on to top 16 the event.

Concerning Rd 7:
Due to the way I was placing my deck box, deck, sideboard, and notepad (which is a notebook), as a change in life total occurred, I accidentally knocked my sideboard into my deck. The cards got somewhat mixed up, but both my opponent and I generally could see which is which. After I had picked everything up, I count my sideboard and count up 14. We call a judge over and I try to figure out which card is missing. I figure out what it is and put it back in the sideboard as the judge gives the following ruling.
Because I had mixed up two unknown zones, and my opponent cannot confirm the origins of the cards in either zone, the fix is apparently to have my opponent look through my deck and sideboard, and pick out 15 cards to put into my sideboard. The judge acknowledges that the fix is extreme, but the fix. He also mentions that the opponent (who is extremely gracious and patient at this point) wants to acknowledge that the pile that I called my sideboard is fine, then that will be that, I get a warning and move on. His teammates goad him on to try and take the free win, which he elects to reluctantly and I appeal. The head judge’s ruling makes a lot more sense to me, where they go get my decklist, confirm the contents with what I have identified as my sideboard, and we go from there. Essentially an informal deck check. I would like to thank my opponent again for being extremely gracious and patient with me and all the nonsense that happened in the game that ended in a draw afterwards.

One more note about team events: I want to say that about half of my opponents were fewer Legacy players and more players that got stuck with Legacy. Decks were built inefficiently (unless there’s a variant of Grixis Delver that runs Abrupt Decay? Is 4c Delver still a thing?), decks were played incorrectly, and my opponents had a weaker than average understanding of the metagame or the rules as a whole. Maybe I’m just being condescending, but that was the feeling I had for a good chunk of the opponents.

Daredevil hits this event:
Vs Grixis Delver – Bolted a Deathrite Shaman
Vs Mono White DnT – Swords to Plowshares on something or other
Vs Grixis Delver – Cabal Therapy on Daze (revealed two FoWs, but now had perfect information anyways)
Vs Punishing Abzan – Abrupt Decay on a Mox Diamond (I also had a Magus in play)

After the day ended I signed up for the Legacy Classic to keep playing Daredevil. I made the following changes:
-1 Palace Jailer (main)
-1 Blessed Alliance (side)
+1 Vryn Wingmare (main)
+1 Faerie Macabre (side)

Jailer remained unimpressive through multiple iterations of Pyromancers and flying things, and was overall depressing to see. Blessed Alliance was supposed to be for TNN, but TNN has recently made friends with Pyromancer, so Alliance wasn’t going to cut it.
The Wingmare is a bit of a disynergy with the Daredevil, but I ended up appreciating the extra tax effect and Flying anyways. The Faerie Macabre was the one thing I was trying to fit into the sideboard (3rd graveyard hate mechanic), but couldn’t find room.

So here’s what happened in the Classic.
Rd 1: Grixis Delver 2-0
Rd 2: Sneak and Show 0-2
He turn to Show and Tell into Omniscience both games. Dems the beats.
Rd 3: Mana Dredge 2-1
Rd 4: Mono White DnT 1-2
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=118399
There was a point for around 5 turns in g3 where if I drew a land, I can cast SoFI, equip, and kill his Flickerwisp before it can get Jitte counters. Alternatively, I draw specifically Cavern, a Fetch, or Plateau, I cast Daredevil to Swords his Flickerwisp. They both do the same thing, but the end result is that I fail to and die to said Flickerwisp killing everything.
However, I did get to Flickerwisp + Containment Priest to kill his Revoker on my Jitte. He did the same back to me and eventually, we were staring at each other for a few turns. Then we got to the point I described above and died despite weird plays.
Rd 5: UB Reanimator 1-2
So…. Game 1 he goes Careful Study, and I go Revoker blind name Griselbrand. A few turns later he dumps the Griselbrand into the graveyard, Entombs for a Tidespout Tyrant and Reanimates that. At this point, I have both Revoker and a Wingmare in play, alongside a Daredevil in hand and 3 lands in play. I shove with both the Revoker and Wingmare, he blocks Wingmare and I cast Daredevil on Reanimate. He Misdirects the Reanimate to his Hapless Researcher in the bin. I drop Thalia and Mom and just go wide enough to kill him. Magic is weird sometimes.
Game 2 is a simple he turn 2s an Inkwell Leviathan and I don’t have Council’s Judgment (which probably would have gotten Forced anyways)
Game 3 involves him dropping Iona and me failing to find Karakas. This is one time that Daredevil was awkward, as all the spells that he had were irrelevant to me at the time and it was uncastable anyways. Probably the only time it happened this weekend.
Rd 6: Mono White DnT (4 Crusader) 2-0
Daredevil let me win the removal war, and in g2 I ground him out with Karakas, Vial on 4 and P&K.
Rd 7: Czech Pile 2-0

Daredevil hits this event:
Vs Mana Dredge - Faithless Looting to just get it out of the graveyard
Vs Mono White DnT - Swords to Plowshares on something or other
Vs UB Reanimator - See above

So overall impressions of Daredevil this weekend was positive. In most circumstances, it remains Nekrataal, but the oddball situations like Reanimating things pushes the power level and fun factor through the roof for me. I almost never wanted to cantrip with it as it felt like a waste when I could be casting more powerful spells. Maybe at some point I’ll just look at some decks in the meta and compile a list of relevant Daredevil targets.

Anyways, had fun, would run some variation of it back again if I had the choice.

==

Edit-

Out of curiosity, I took a look at the matchup list that is listed at Thraben University to see what sort of targets Daredevil has. This list is not comprehensive, but a good starting point when determining effectiveness, I believe.

http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?page_id=17

ANT - Cantrips, Duress, Cabal Therapy, Infernal Tutor, also serves as disruption against Past in Flames and achieving Threshold.
Burn - removal spells for their creatures. Also incidentally affects Lavamancer.
BUG Leovold/Czech Pile - Discard spells (Inquisition, Thoughtseize, Hymn) and removal spells (Push, Edict, Deluge, Abrupt Decay) are all strong targets. Cantrips exist, but the aformentioned types of spells listed. Against Pile, KCommand is a strong target, but achieving the mana requirement to cast it can be difficult.
DnT - Swords to Plowshares. Despite having the singular target, I would leave in Daredevil because it brawls well in combat, and having extra removal in the matchup is another way to get an advantage in an already glacial matchup.
Eldrazi - Uh.... sometimes you can Warping Wail their All is Dust? Clearly not the matchup for Daredevil.
Elves - Speed bump game 1. Game 2 you can hit their Abrupt Decay and discard spells if you're still alive. G3 is unapplicable because I refuse to believe that a DnT player has survived that long.
Food Chain - Abrupt Decay, Fatal Push. Sideboard they bring in Diabolic Edict sometimes. This matchup doesn't feel particularly good with Ballista, and I don't think Daredevil improves this. Cantrips can allow you to find Revoker faster, I suppose.
Grixis Delver - Bolt, Push, Cabal Therapy, Stifle. In the sideboard you can hit their Ancient Grudge so it doesn't get full value, but the real value of Daredevil in this matchup is doing their best Nekrataal impression. It does it pretty well.
Infect - Pump spells. You too can race Infect! But really hit their Spell Pierce and sit behind the First Striker team, and hope it gets you there. Sometimes they bring in artifact removal postboard, which can be turned on their Inkmoth. Crop Rotation can also find Wasteland.
Miracles - Cantrips. I believe the goal is simply to either ambush their Snapcaster Mage, or find more threats by using their Cantrips. I have won at least one game where I sat there threatening to Counterspell as well. It's on my bucket list with Dire Fleet Daredevil to Predict their Terminus at one point.
Reanimator - I'm lumping them both in here, but RB is far more popular. Reanimate, Collective Brutality, Duress, Faithless Looting, Thoughtseize are all reasonable targets. The difficult part is surviving long enough to actually cast them, but sometimes their hands are slow out the gate. Also of note is that you can cast Daredevil through Iona (which is 90% on white). Worth noting, I suppose. Against blue variants, cantrips are also targets to try and find RiP or whatever graveyard hate you play.
Lands - Loam, PFire, Crop Rotation, Abrupt Decay (Gamble?). Loam and PFire as targets are mostly just to get rid of it. Crop Rotate for Karakas is an amusing line against them going for Depths, as is Gamble, I suppose. Abrupt Decay can hit whatever permanents they're leaning on. Postboard their options are super varied, but hitting Grip is reasonable when they lean on Mox.
Shardless BUG - I would normally write this off as a dead deck, but I saw it the other day in a league. Who knew. Abrupt Decay, Hymn, Push, Pulse, basically everything is a reasonable target. The point of the matchup is spam value, so either Vial on 2 or killing DRS allows you to get more value. Postboard is much the same, and hitting Decay to kill Null Rod sounds like an amazing deal to me.
Sneak and Show - Cantrips to find Karakas. Honestly, there probably isn't going to be much that will help you if they have Omniscience anyways, so just pretend they don't have it game 1. Game 2 it's still more cantrips to find whatever bullets you brought in.
Tin Fins - See Reanimator above.
Turbo Depths - Discard spells, Abrupt Decay, Sylvan Scrying, Crop Rotation. Discard spells slows them down a little bit or forces them to Crop Rotate early. Crop Rotate or Scrying for Karakas. Abrupt Decay for Needles or whatever other permanents they brought in.
UR Delver - Removal spells for their creatures, counterspells on occasion, first striker, cantrip as a last resort to find Thalia or Stoneforge. Now that I think of it, Spell Snare on their Price of Progress sounds good to me.

All in all, there's usually some target for most relevant decks out there. The few decks that I didn't have targets with (UB Tezzeretor and Show and Tell) were few and far between. I'm very happy with it.

[Medea_]

There were a ton of D&T finishes this weekend at the Open (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t%5BCT1%5D=1&t%5BCT2%5D=28&t%5BCT3%5D=3&start_date=01/19/2018&end_date=01/21/2018&start=1&finish=32&event_ID=49&city=Dallas) and the Classic (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t%5BC1%5D=3&start_date=01/20/2018&end_date=01/21/2018&event_ID=36&city=Dallas&state=TX).

[EtwasSteIne]

Most delver decks run around 15 creatures versus our 27 orso on average. In general, Delver tries to stick 1 threath, then protect it with spells. Thing is, if you are able to remove that threath, they need to dig again for another one to try and stick.

I wouldn't mull agressively for an STP, its a solid card to see in your opening hand though. I tend to have 2 path to exile in my SB that I also bring in with this matchup postboard.

If they go (on the play) dual, delver. Your turn: land STP, they go Daze in response. Well thats it, you lost the gamble. Note that most Delver players board out dazes after game 1. I still rather take the gamble T1 by removing their threath, then waiting turn 2 to fire off an STP with a 2nd land as backup. The only time I would do this is if I can stick a vial T1, followed by a STP T2.

Just keep reasonable hands, if you have a mom T1, thats fine, if they have removal they are going to play it ASAP on the mom. Leaving the path open to try and stick a T2 Thalia instead. Thalia is pretty decent overall versus Delver, and messes up the tempo game they are trying to play.

If you only have SFM as T2, go for a sword over Bskull, if you go Bskull they most likely remove the SFM, leaving you with a dead piece of equipment in your hand.

Delver games can go both ways, I dont have the feeling Delvers are a bad MU for our deck. I have had games that lasted 7 turns, and I have had games that lasted 45 turns (was grixis delver) It is mostly the cumulation of multiple small errors on one side that might lead to a loss. Fair decks playing out vs eachother tend to reward the player with the most experience. Of course, luck is still a factor, no matter how good you are, if you need to mull to 5 because of no land hands your gonna fight an uphill battle and still lose in the end just because you are missing some gass to keep the pressure on. .

Thanks for the response :-)
It seems like the coin toss is a big deal vs delver.

[Koke_MTG]

There were a ton of D&T finishes this weekend at the Open (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t%5BCT1%5D=1&t%5BCT2%5D=28&t%5BCT3%5D=3&start_date=01/19/2018&end_date=01/21/2018&start=1&finish=32&event_ID=49&city=Dallas) and the Classic (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t%5BC1%5D=3&start_date=01/20/2018&end_date=01/21/2018&event_ID=36&city=Dallas&state=TX).Yep, I think the deck is well positioned again and fights comfortably tier 1 decks.

Finally we find the way to beat Czech Pile plus the return of Miracles to DTB that is worth as well.

Of course this cost us in form of tempo and we're a bit worse facing Delver decks IMO because we're in more bombs that must be resolved, being better on late-game and weaker to soft counters and early preassure. For that, I find myself winning less by short advantages of mana constraint like we used to do.

It's interesting looking how a 'limited' deck like this evolves in a complicated metagame like Legacy.

Btw, yesterday I 5-0'd with Wr D&T. First try with those 75 and got it:

4 x Mother of Runes
4 x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 x Stoneforge Mystic
2 x Phyrexian Revoker
3 x Flickerwisp
2 x Recruiter of the Guard
2 x Magus of the Moon
1 x Mirran Crusader
1 x Sanctum Prelate
1 x Palace Jailer
1 x Pia and Kiran Nalaar

4 x Aether Vial
4 x Swords to Plowshares
1 x Batterskull
1 x Sword of Fire and Ice
1 x Umezawa's Jitte

4 x Wasteland
4 x Rishadan Port
3 x Windswept Heath
2 x Marsh Flats
2 x Plateau
3 x Plains
3 x Karakas
3 x Cavern of Souls

SB:

2 x Path to Exile
2 x Council's Judgment
1 x Cataclysm
1 x Palace Jailer
1 x Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 x Mirran Crusader
1 x Sanctum Prelate
2 x Containment Priest
2 x Ethersworn Canonist
2 x Rest in Peace

I tryed to find room for the 4th Flickerwisp but was near imposible...

Find myself winning a lot through Vial on 4, even in tempo matchups.

Next step is give Dire Fleet Daredevil a try. When testing it do you guys consider it as a 3 drop to build a manabase? I mean, how often are you hurry of mana to give it value, how often is just a body for you etc etc?

[J ♥ 5]

It is more or less a three drop, but in a lot of matchups you can just cast it on 2 and probe your opponent, a kind of DIY elvish visionary.

[Medea_]

@koke_mtg

I got a 5-0 with a RW list yesterday as well. I beat Aggro MUD, Miracles, BUG Delver, Sneak and Show, and Czech Pile.

Lands
2 Cavern of Souls
3 Karakas
3 Plains
3 Plateau
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
1 Marsh Flats
1 Arid Mesa
2 Flooded Strand
1 Windsweapt Heath
Creatures
3 Flickerwisp
4 Mother of Runes
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Recruiter of the Guard
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Magus of the Moon
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
2 Vryn Wingmare
1 Palace Jailer
Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Sideboard
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Path to Exile
3 Rest in Peace
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Containment Priest
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
2 Cataclysm

[redtwister]

@everyone
Lots of Spirit of the Labyrinth in the builds. Was it good or did it reflect that a lot of DnT like the rest of Legacy players at the event were not Legacy regulars but people picking up the third position because they had a little Legacy experience?

@Medea_
2 Vryn Wingmare, very interesting. Was it significant? When was it good and when was it bad?

Thoughts on the sideboard?

[iatee]

Next step is give Dire Fleet Daredevil a try. When testing it do you guys consider it as a 3 drop to build a manabase? I mean, how often are you hurry of mana to give it value, how often is just a body for you etc etc?

I try not to cast it without getting value, so it's generally a 3 drop. It's a tricky card to play because sometimes you're supposed to just cast it instead of waiting for a target, and it can be hard to figure out whether you're in that spot or not.

Out of Vial it's a 2, so it kinda averages out to be a 2.5.

[Medea_]

Planning on streaming at 6:30 eastern! I'll be playing RW D&T and briefly looking at some decklists from the Open. https://www.twitch.tv/deathandtaxesftw

[Medea_]

So last night I spent quite some time sharing my thoughts on the various SCG Open/Legacy Classic decklists. Here's the link (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_6uIfhsnHs) to the Youtube video.

@redtwister
Wingmare #2 has been pretty good thus far.

[iatee]

I got another 5-0 with a Daredevil list last night. I'm 100% sold on the card at this point. I think cutting a SfM for the Daredevil is a reasonable choice, they play similar roles.

[Moctzal]

I got another 5-0 with a Daredevil list last night. I'm 100% sold on the card at this point. I think cutting a SfM for the Daredevil is a reasonable choice, they play similar roles.

Interesting. What quantity do you like 1-2?

[iatee]

I think you want 2. It's a good card.

[kombatkiwi]

The guy on the Grixis Delver thread who just won the MODO challenge was also impressed with the pirate from his finals opponent.
I was thinking of playing BW after getting most of the DNT cards but it looks like I might have to try RW instead. (Also I really want to bounce PKN with Karakas ^_^)
Do people still think Pontiff is needed compared to other red options like Sparkmage or Lavamancer etc? I guess killing TNN makes it still one of the best removal options.

[Warden]

The guy on the Grixis Delver thread who just won the MODO challenge was also impressed with the pirate from his finals opponent.
I was thinking of playing BW after getting most of the DNT cards but it looks like I might have to try RW instead. (Also I really want to bounce PKN with Karakas ^_^)
Do people still think Pontiff is needed compared to other red options like Sparkmage or Lavamancer etc? I guess killing TNN makes it still one of the best removal options.

Medea can probably articulate this much better than I can: the red cards you list have similar applications (and overlap), but aren't 100% identical. One of those "a square may be a rectangle but a rectangle isn't necessarily a square." Pontiff's biggest upside is the one-time effect of obliterating your opponent's x/1 blockade. Mirror match, TNN, and occasional Elves boardstates. There are other scenarios like unflipped delvers, annoying baleful strixes, post-combat x/2 killings, etc. Sparkmage/Lavamancer are recursive removal with legs. They cannot wipe the table in 1 fell swoop, but certainly push board control in your favor (fair matchups).

Is BW superior to RW or RWb (ie; Madea includes Pontiff with RW lists)? How do splashes compare to mono-W? Madea's most recent Thraban article about RW did a very solid job expressing how splashes are redistributing matchup % from A and moving it to B. So while a particular matchup may get better, you can assume something else is likely getting weaker. You're gaining vulnerabilities by splashing a color in the first place in exchange for a non-white game-winning card. Splashes don't make the deck strictly better nor is there a perfect list in general.

[Medea_]

@Warden You did a fine job there. I'll write an article on this someday, but the way I envision each change to a decklist is by a series of matchup sliders. Each change you make influences your percentages against every deck in the format. There is rarely a true "best" version of the deck, but you hedge for certain things you want to beat at any given time and try to come up with the build you think ends up with the most overall positive matchups against what you expect to play. The changes you make often "cascade," so to speak, and lead to other changes.

Pontiff is a stupid good haymaker card that really increases your chances at beating Elves and TNN decks like Stoneblade. Playing a Pontiff does require some degree of commitment to it (if you actually want to deploy it on curve consistently), often doing something like maxing out on Caverns if you are already on a RW build. A choice like that leads to worse matchups against Wasteland decks and makes some of your true white cards harder to cast.

One thing you have to decide is how greedy you'd like to get in your splashes. Some people are happy enough splashing a Pontiff off 3 Cavern of Souls in an otherwise monowhite build. Other people want to run a Scrubland to fetch up. It's all about how much you think the card is needed, how early you want to deploy it, and how willing you are to wait and deploy it off a vial.