[Deck] Death and Taxes

[jwl3gg]

before we could on do this with jite counters on like a stoneforge mystic. This was another draw to the card for me.

You can also give it negative attack, ie -1/7.

[Medea_]

Anybody still rocking Shalai?

Shalai is probably going to float in and out of flex slots. It's just stupid powerful in the right spots and certain metagames. I'm not sure that now is the right time, given the printing of Brightling.

[Moctzal]

You can also give it negative attack, ie -1/7.

And pump +1/-1 more when it’s pumped by Jitte or bigger from Sword of Fire and Ice.

You also choose which +/- pump you get on resolution, not activation. Might matter if an opponent sequences their spells, or responds, at weird times.

[itsmrjack]

Just musing on Brightling...

Given that Baleful Strix and TNN seem to be a (the only) problem for Brightling, might a BW build for a couple Zealous Persecution in the board have a bit of mileage?

Also, seems a little more of a longshot but might Linvala be a way to fight opposing Brightling? Thinking mainly if Miracles does start running it - as that could really be a problem - though could also provide more general value in the mirror. There seems little else that doesn't also shut down your own Brightling.

[Finn]

Just musing on Brightling...

...There seems little else that doesn't also shut down your own Brightling.

A reasonable valuation of our limited supply of mana.

[a tribe called trest]

Before all the newer printings that lead the deck in a grindy direction, there was a 4x serra avenger and 3x mirran crusader build that was seeing success. Cant help but wonder if there's a 4x avenger 4x brightling list that could simply overwhelm the board and removal. quick sample idea


lands 24

plains x11
karakas x3
horizon canopy x2
wasteland x4
rishadan port x4

creatures 24

mother of runes x4
thalia, guardian of thraben x4
stoneforge mystic x4
serra avenger x4
flickerwisp x4
brightling x4

other 12

aether vial x4
swords to plowshares x4
batterskull x1
umezawa's jitte x1
sword of fire and ice x1
sword of light and shadow x1

sideboard 15

surgical extraction x3
path to exile x3
cataclysm x2
disenchant x2
ethersworn canonist x2
containment priest x3


Rough outline. 4th equipment and 2 canopies just as additional things to do with possible flood on 24 lands. Choice of equipment was because of strix, wanted the pro black in addition to the pro blue from sofi. could easily be something else or just cut. Chose disenchant over councils judgement because racing tnn will be easier than needing to spend 3 mana to remove it with so many sources of lifelink in the deck. Gonna be a dog in the mirror without any revoker effects so the mana save and instant speed of disenchant is what im looking for. Also, its availability in beta. Surgical over RIP because a build like this would want to spend any actual mana on creatures or paving the way for creatures. The configurations of path to exiles is simply due to the current meta in an attempt to shore up grixis delver and marit lage matchups.

Mirran crusader ended up being the odd person out. brightling shenanigans with the vial on 3 is what im looking to do, and if im gonna be spending mana on that, avenger costing 2 mana vs the crusaders 3 is gonna make it easier to cast post combat. Worse against push/decay, better against marsh casualties effects and connecting with equipment over tnn.

[itsmrjack]

A reasonable valuation of our limited supply of mana.

I'm not sure I get what you mean. Would you mind clarifying? However if I'd take a guess then I think you're suggesting that Brightling on board is probably the most realistic answer to opposing Brightling - due to the mana it already ties up... If so, this is something I'd considered and decided if that's the case then fine, but was just searching for options really.

Regards my initial musing on Zealous Persecution as a way to allow Brightling to shine (apologies, pun intended) even when facing against TNN and Strix, it just occurred to me that perhaps Brightling in a WW build might give Holy Light a bit more currency than it ever has. At the end of the day, Pile may be the second best deck in the format (not just my words). I'm envisaging late game scenarios Vs Pile where Holy Light allows Brightling to seal games that it otherwise wouldn't because of those two pesky staple board blockers. It seems to me that the power potential of Brightling is exactly the thing about it that warrants a little bending around. Now if that means including cards such as Holy Light/ZP that have previously shown value in certain builds/metas then so be it. It's either that or completely re-structuring the deck around it, which I'm not sure is the way to go.

[colo]

@a tribe called trest: do you consider Brightling so powerful that you really want to have a full playset? Having more than one on the battlefield at a time doesn't seem to have huge benefits (but I'm only theory-crafting; haven't tested it so far). I think I'd rather split between it and Stalking Leonin, because it can be devastating from a vial.

[Medea_]

A 4x Brightling, 4x Avenger build seems like a great way to fold to Baleful Strix decks.

[Boneflute]

Hey yall, I just sleeved up D&T after ugly ports started existing. I'm Long time Maverick player. D&T is more competitive than Maverick IMO. And Maverick is more difficult to play than D&T.
Now I'm only playing D&T and BR Reanimator. Both online and paper. It's the perfect contrast.

Anyways, I wanted to know what your guys' opinions on the mu. What's your boarding strategy for reanimator?
I have grown to love the match up, and feel like it’s even, maybe slightly in Reanimator's favor. After observing both D&T and BR Reanimator online communities, I get the impression that both sides feel favorable about the match up (go-figure).

Also. Thank you Phil! You are super brilliant, and I appreciate everything Thraben University has done for the community and helping younger people play a really hard deck haha.

[jwl3gg]

Hey yall, I just sleeved up D&T after ugly ports started existing. I'm Long time Maverick player. D&T is more competitive than Maverick IMO. And Maverick is harser to play than D&T.
Now, online I'm only playing D&T and BR Reanimator. At least online.

Anyways, I wanted to know what your guys' opinions on the mu. What's your boarding strategy for reanimator?
I have grown to love the match up, and feel like it’s even, maybe slightly in Reanimator's favor. After observing both D&T and BR Reanimator online communities, I get the impression that both sides feel favorable about the match up (go-figure).

Also. Thank you Phil! You are super brilliant, and I appreciate everything Thraben University has done for the community and helping younger people play a really hard deck haha.

Yeah, just follow Thraben U’s insights on matchups. I’d say Reanimator is in our favor, but they can go off turn 1.

[a tribe called trest]

A 4x Brightling, 4x Avenger build seems like a great way to fold to Baleful Strix decks.


Strix was the reason for sword of light and shadow over war and peace as the additional equipment. 4 stp, 4 mom and 2 pro strix equipment should make it a somewhat manageable problem game 1. If i feel so inclined i can go up to 7 one mana removals for it post board. I'll test it in the next couple weeks.


@ colo having multiple sources of lifelink on the battlefield is gonna swing tight creature races. The leonin would have been so awesome if it had a slightly different template so it could remove a tnn

[Boneflute]

So this is my how I sideboard with Death & Taxes on magic online, where there is Reanimator everywhere. (From the view point of a shameless Reanimator player.)

Out:
-4 Stoneforge Mystic
-1 Umezawa's Jitte
-1 Batterskull
-1 Sword of Fire and Ice
-3 Serra Avenger
-2 Mirran Crusader



In:
+2 Rest in Peace
+2 Path to Exile
+2 Council's Judgment
+1 Containment Priest
+2 Ethersworn Canonist
+1 Surgical Extraction
+1 Sactum Prelate
+1 Pithing Needle

The other 3 sideboard cards are 2x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar and 1x Sword of War and Peace.

The main deck is super stock, nothing cute. Pithing Needles naming fetch lands can be back-breaking. I am beginning to really like 1 Pithing Needle in the sideboard come to think of it....

[Medea_]

@Boneflute

RB Reanimator is one of the few matchups where I sideboard in most of my board. You're right to be boarding in a boat load of cards.

My records show that I'm 5-0 with RW Taxes and 7-4 with WW Taxes. The matchup feels favorable to me by quite a bit, but you'll drop games to their most powerful starts with little to say about it.

[Stainless_Steele]

I’m at GP Vegas grinding side events, and I cannot say enough good things about Brightling. It is the way and the light and the truth. I’m 8-3-1 and Brightling has been an MVP. It improved my game against grindy decks like Lands, Czech Pile, and Miracle because it’s so hard to kill. It stabilized the board against aggressive decks like delver and burn. It sneaks under Ensnaring Bridges and escapes Drops of Honey. True-Name Nemesis has to hang back on defense because it can’t race the lifelink. I just keep finding more cool things it does. It sloughs off bolts and Barbarian Rings with ease.

This is blasphemous hyperbole, but actually asked myself if I even need Batterskull since Brightling does the same thing for less. This is a crazy idea that I don’t think I’ll pursue, but the fact that I asked that question tells you how well Brightling has performed.

[Boneflute]

I’m at GP Vegas grinding side events, and I cannot say enough good things about Brightling. It is the way and the light and the truth. I’m 8-3-1 and Brightling has been an MVP. It improved my game against grindy decks like Lands, Czech Pile, and Miracle because it’s so hard to kill. It stabilized the board against aggressive decks like delver and burn. It sneaks under Ensnaring Bridges and escapes Drops of Honey. True-Name Nemesis has to hang back on defense because it can’t race the lifelink. I just keep finding more cool things it does. It sloughs off bolts and Barbarian Rings with ease.

This is blasphemous hyperbole, but actually asked myself if I even need Batterskull since Brightling does the same thing for less. This is a crazy idea that I don’t think I’ll pursue, but the fact that I asked that question tells you how well Brightling has performed.

When I first saw Brightling, it seemed like a good Batterskull replacement. Thanks for sharing this information.

[Lord Darkview]

Brightling fills a lot of Batterskull's roles, but I don't think I'd want to drop the latter unless my meta was saturated with K. Commands. If I did, I'd also likely cut a SFM, and devote these two slots to a 24th land and 3rd Brightling.

Reanimator feels like a solid 50-50, where you lose some games instantly, and always feel on the edge of your seat for the rest. I typically cut my SFM + Equipment (7), Crusaders (3), and a pair of Flickerwisps, bringing in 3 RiP, 2 PtE, 2 CJ, 2 Canonist, 1 Containment Priest, 1 Recruiter, and 1 LRW. Yes, that is 12 cards swapping in, and I'm okay with that: I'm replacing slower threats with disruption, removal, or cards that basically just win on the spot.

4 Avenger + 4 Brightling would indeed be weak to Strix, but I'm not sure that's the end of the world. The problem from my perspective is that it probably requires cutting other elements, and I really don't like looking at openers or early draws with multiple Avengers or Brightlings. 3 and 3 seems feasible, though.

Opposing Brightlings represent interesting conundrums. In the mirrors, they partially act like equipment or Mother of Runes: a card that you can Revoker off, and may have to, but has some symmetrical impact. Linvala is a possibility, but that's a pretty narrow answer overall (and opposing Karakas makes it questionable anyway). It has the potential to be really powerful against us in Miracles, but it's probably not their best choice in other matchups, and they have limited white mana anyway which compromises the ability to cast/use it and still hold up removal. I think I'm just going to roll with it, since I already bring in Sword of War and Peace in those matchups. If it becomes more prominent, I'll counter-strategize further.

[Koke_MTG]

Hey guys,

Today I tested Brightling in my LGS Sunday tournament. Sadly lost in the finals vs Omni-Sneak. Went 4-0 through the swiss rounds:

R1 Grixis Delver: 2-0
R2 BG Turbo Depths: 2-0
R3 BUG Shadow: 2-0
R4 UW Miracles: 2-0

Here the list:

MAINDECK (60):

4 x Mother of Runes
4 x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 x Stoneforge Mystic
2 x Phyrexian Revoker
4 x Flickerwisp
2 x Recruiter of the Guard
2 x Mirran Crusader
2 x Brightling
2 x Vryn Wingmare
1 x Sanctum Prelate
1 x Palace Jailer

4 x Aether Vial
4 x Swords to Plowshares
1 x Sword of Fire and Ice
1 x Umezawa's Jitte

4 x Wasteland
4 x Rishadan Port
12 x Plains
3 x Karakas

SIDEBOARD (15):

2 x Path to Exile
2 x Council's Judgment
2 x Cataclysm
1 x Palace Jailer
1 x Sanctum Prelate
1 x Leonin Relic-Warder
2 x Containment Priest
2 x Ethersworn Canonist
2 x Rest in Peace

I'm playing with no Batterskull and 3 x SFM from like 3 weeks before GP Birmingham and I really did not missed it. I think right now it's great against no more than Burn, Eldrazi, Team America and Grixis Delver (especially G1)... There are a lot of efficient answers floating around and it's like a terrible card to open. It requieres more mana than ever in a metagame with more answers than ever and is less definitive than ever. For sure it'd change if WotC bans DRS soon.

Seems like Brightling could replace it greatly but let's see, I'll keep playtesting it for future big events comming soon. Sadly I'll do it IRL because we won't have it in MTGO soon :frown:

Today I only played Brightling vs Miracles both games and was great. But once I established my gameplay around Vial and the monarchy, so I'd have won the round even without it probably.

[DarthVicious]

Just a thought, but if you're running Avengers and Shalai in any relevant capacity, wouldn't Lyra Dawnbringer be a decent Batterskull replacement? Granted, you can't search her up or cheat her into play, but how often did you find yourself hardcasting Batterskull? My answer would be 'often enough to consider'.

A more dramatic issue that should be discussed is the lack of effectiveness of Port. And Wasteland, for that matter, although it is necessary vs Marit Lage decks. I've been considering Ancient Tomb in place of Port myself.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I disagree that port is ineffective. I've heard a lot of DnT players say what you are saying, but I've never had that experience. Its only gotten better for me since I started playing multiple Wingmare alongside Thalia. Does it become less effective in the late game? Sure, but now I have another use for it in the form of Brightling pump.

The Brightling iteration is this far my favorite DnT version since the printing of Recruiter of the Guard.

[Mad Mat]

Decided to try Brightling today. I had already kicked out cavern, so I just dropped an Avenger and a Crusader for two copies and my flex 61 slot for a 24th land. Went 4-0-1, then lost in the QF to UR dread delver because I forgot how to mulligan game 3. Brightling was only relevant in one game, but it was in hand in a few other games where it was a good ace up the sleeve should my opponent have an answer for my board (they didn't).

The idea behind this manabase of 6 fetches, 5 basics and 2 duals is that it maximizes the odds of you being able to cast pontiff when necessary, while also maximizing your chances of finding the proper basics against moon, PoP and back to basics.

Lands(24):
5 Plains
2 Scrubland
4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
3 Karakas
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port

Creatures(26):
3 Mother of Runes
1 Judge's Familiar
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Serra Avenger
4 Flickerwisp
2 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Brightling
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Sanctum Prelate

Other(11):
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

Sideboard(15):
2 Rest in Peace
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Council's Judgment
2 Path to Exile
1 Blessed Alliance
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sword of War and Peace
1 Surgical Extraction

R1: Sneaky show 2-0
G1: He goes for show and tell into griselbrand turn 3. I drop revoker and karakas (sandbagged) it next turn.
G2: He goes for show and tell into emrakul turn 4 (thalia), I drop karakas (sandbagged) next turn. He then pyroclasms my board away (including revoker on sneak attack), except for Brightling. I deal 5 with Brightling next turn, putting him at 3, and decide not to waste and just play a wisp, so I have 7 permanents if he were to have a sneak into emrakul. He has an abrade for only one of the two creatures and scoops.

R2: Eldrazi stompy 2-1
G1: He forces me to plow a board of mimic and revoker (on vial) as he equips jitte to mimic. I plow revoker, then wisp jitte away and block mimic to death with mom. But he can waste my port and then cast his follow-up of endbringer and metamorph copying endbringer.
G2: He starts slow, using ratchet bomb to blow up my vial and warping wail to eat my revoker locking it down. I pontiff away his mimic, he follows with smasher. I hardcast jitte and connect with pontiff to get counters. The following turn he casts another smasher and a spellskite, putting me to five. I cast Thalia HC, attack with pontiff again and equip jitte (4 counters) to Thalia. He can't attack into it, so I attack him next turn. He double blocks and dismembers her, so I remove two counters to allow her to survive, then the other two to kill one smasher with first strike, then remove one I get from the trigger so she survives the damage from the second one. I can use the last jitte counter to stabilize at 2 life after his next attack and then cast council's judgment to seal the game.
G3: He starts off with ballista, which I remove with Leonin Relic-Warder. His second play is jitte, after which I disrupt his mana with port as it's evident he's short on land. Eventually, after I forego porting for extra pressure, he manages to get jitte online, but I have an overwhelming board presence at this point (and a council's to remove it in my turn).

R3: Moon stompy 2-0
G1: Thalia is a real, big pain for this deck. He had a chalice start and moon a turn or two later, but I had two basics by that point and a wisp to deal with chalice, after which I can plow his P&K. He scoops when I drop Prelate with mom protection.
G2: 2 sulfur elementals slow me down (taking thalia, recruiter mom and wisp; first one got plowed before the second one could be cast), but they don't kill Prelate (which I recruited) and I don't take the bait of attacking into it. My follow-up is council for his elemental and a revoker to ensure a lethal clock next turn and he fails to draw an answer that is not a noncreature CMC4.

R4: Food chain 2-0 (downpaired)
G1: I keep a hand with triple mom. He can deal with 1 through a ballista (which I plow), but the others stabilize the board with flyers and batterskull. I wisp SFM for SOFI, but he manages to thoughtseize it. I can recruit for revoker (on food chain - he had already used one ballista and I had a plow for a second one) the turn before he can combo off and flyers + double mom ensure my clock (all of his flyers, i.e. clique, strix and griffin, are blue). After 4 turns or so, I find my fifth land for batterskull equip and he scoops.
G2: He gets stuck on 2 lands, whereas I get wisp + sofi by turn 4.

R5: D&T ID

QF: UR dreadnought delver 1-2
G1: I get early double vial, with double recruiter, and outgrind anything he throws at me. First recruiter finds a pontiff for true-name, second a wisp for dreadnought.
G2: He starts with two lavamancers, which I have to plow and path. His follow-up is standstill, which I immediately break, allowing him to find all tools to finish me off (i.e. nought + 2x removal and 2x stifle). I used LRW on dreadnought to play around daze, allowing him to bolt it next turn, followed by another stifle and another bolt on the wisp I just played, allowing him to beat for exactly 13 with his unflipped delver.
G3: I keep a slow hand (mom, path, 4 land, skull) and have to path a lavamancer again. This gives him the mana advantage to land delver and standstill, which I'm forced to break again. I fail to regain the initiative, keeping my only threat wisp behind for his inevitable dreadnought after all that card advantage. I can plow his delver after 6 or so damage, but fail to find an answer to his true-name. There was a funky interaction when he wasted my wasteland, making me waste his fetchland, after which he fetched and tried to Teferi's Response my wasteland ability. I managed to convince the judge that this doesn't work, because my wasteland ability has no legal target and Teferi's Response requires its target to have one.

So, yeah, except for the terrible keep in the QF, I can't really complain. I got lucky beating food chain anyway. Brightling saw little action, and the fact that you want to keep mana open for it is awkward. Its CMC defaults to even more than 3, which is nice against the midrange grinds, but very awkward against everything else (i.e. delver, combo, stompy). I can't say I was ever unhappy to see it today, but I didn't see it often either. It might also be time to go for 4 mom and no bird again, but I'm hesitant to let go of my little humorless mascot... It's also much better against combo than mom is and this sort of build has issues against some combo decks.


Just a thought, but if you're running Avengers and Shalai in any relevant capacity, wouldn't Lyra Dawnbringer be a decent Batterskull replacement? Granted, you can't search her up or cheat her into play, but how often did you find yourself hardcasting Batterskull? My answer would be 'often enough to consider'.
You can't fetch Lyra with stoneforge and if you don't have skull, stoneforge becomes much, much less impressive against aggro.

I don't think Brightling is a replacement for Batterskull. Batterskull is, in this deck, a mana efficient card. It's the cheapest thing you can get off of SFM and the least vulnerable to removal (can be bounced, can't be decayed). Brightling is much slower and more vulnerable to things like strix, true-name, angler and sweepers - in particular game 1 where artifact removal is still quite rare.


Reanimator feels like a solid 50-50, where you lose some games instantly, and always feel on the edge of your seat for the rest. I typically cut my SFM + Equipment (7), Crusaders (3), and a pair of Flickerwisps, bringing in 3 RiP, 2 PtE, 2 CJ, 2 Canonist, 1 Containment Priest, 1 Recruiter, and 1 LRW. Yes, that is 12 cards swapping in, and I'm okay with that: I'm replacing slower threats with disruption, removal, or cards that basically just win on the spot.
If you're not playing specific answers like Surgical or Faerie, the match-up is very poor in my experience (BR, you barely see UB anymore). The odds of not losing to a turn 1 griselbrand are very low and the odds of them getting that are very high. You are favored if they don't have the nuts, but the deck is designed to quite consistently have the nuts. You're more likely to eat up dredge than BR without fast and narrow grave hate, I'd say.


Opposing Brightlings represent interesting conundrums. In the mirrors, they partially act like equipment or Mother of Runes: a card that you can Revoker off, and may have to, but has some symmetrical impact. Linvala is a possibility, but that's a pretty narrow answer overall (and opposing Karakas makes it questionable anyway). It has the potential to be really powerful against us in Miracles, but it's probably not their best choice in other matchups, and they have limited white mana anyway which compromises the ability to cast/use it and still hold up removal. I think I'm just going to roll with it, since I already bring in Sword of War and Peace in those matchups. If it becomes more prominent, I'll counter-strategize further.
Opposing brightlings are no more a problem than mirran crusader, brimaz or the like. Mirror matches revolve around the value of equipment, mom, tempo and evasion, not creature bulk. Miracles will never play it, because they already have the perfect white 3-drop they could dream of.

[jwl3gg]

Just a thought, but if you're running Avengers and Shalai in any relevant capacity, wouldn't Lyra Dawnbringer be a decent Batterskull replacement? Granted, you can't search her up or cheat her into play, but how often did you find yourself hardcasting Batterskull? My answer would be 'often enough to consider'.

A more dramatic issue that should be discussed is the lack of effectiveness of Port. And Wasteland, for that matter, although it is necessary vs Marit Lage decks. I've been considering Ancient Tomb in place of Port myself.

Lyra is terrible. Batterskull can be searched, cheated into play, attached, and bounced. Lyra gets sucked under from Terminous. All they have to do is kill Shalai then they can target Lyra. In the mirror or against Maverick she just gets bounced. Nothing like tapping 5 out to play her and get dazed. Awful idea man. 🤮
Also, Port is awesome. Active port with Thalia against OmniSneak and other blue decks is such a great feeling. One of the big bonuses about D&T is that we don’t take damage from our lands. Just about every other deck does. Why would you want to give away that advantage?

[DarthVicious]

Lyra was just a suggestion for a build heavy on Angels, she's like a Baneslayer with a higher upside. She also can't be Decayed, plus she has no fear of KCommand whatsoever.

Stoneforge is too slow a lot of the time, and your line of play is almost always telegraphed. Even if they don't see Batterskull off the trigger, they're still expecting it.

[Finn]

Lyra was just a suggestion for a build heavy on Angels, she's like a Baneslayer with a higher upside. She also can't be Decayed, plus she has no fear of KCommand whatsoever.

Stoneforge is too slow a lot of the time, and your line of play is almost always telegraphed. Even if they don't see Batterskull off the trigger, they're still expecting it.There are times when the "telegraphed" play is a blessing. It involves misinformation. It happens when you naturally draw Mystic and Batterskull. You fetch the Jitte and the opponent swings into your Batterskull-carrying-germ because they think the attack is safe. A lesser version can happen if you draw into the Jitte where the opponent overextends figuring a Batterskull is coming.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

My thoughts on Resplendent Angel is that some people will like it, but I do not. Lifegain is not easily accessible in this deck, at least not in the capacity of 5 a turn. Can it be done? Yes. Will it be good enough? On my opinion, no.

Feels win-more. If I'm getting in for 5 a turn, am I not probably winning anyway?

[Mannaus]

Feels like you sum it up nicely. We don't have space for generic beaters (non-hatebears) that don't have metagame-geared evasion caracteristics. Maybe it could compete with Serra Avenger, but then again, Avenger is though to beat, and when comparing similar CMC, Brightling seems better.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I mean, Brimaz is probably better than this.

[Lord Darkview]

Resplendent Angel certainly looks interesting, but the only "easy enabler" we have is Brightling. I largely agree with @Medea_'s take on this card: high-upside, reasonably aggressive body, but the 3-drop slot is pretty crowded, it will be hard for us to activate, and if we decide to go in an equipment-less direction we will need better 2-drops to replace SFM before this is viable.

When the price drops off, I will likely grab a pair of these for the long-run possibilities.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Resplendent Angel certainly looks interesting, but the only "easy enabler" we have is Brightling. I largely agree with @Medea_'s take on this card: high-upside, reasonably aggressive body, but the 3-drop slot is pretty crowded, it will be hard for us to activate, and if we decide to go in an equipment-less direction we will need better 2-drops to replace SFM before this is viable.

When the price drops off, I will likely grab a pair of these for the long-run possibilities.That's a good idea if they do go low enough. That card has a high chance of going in soul sisters in modern, though, and will obviously see a TON of play in standard with all the angels seeing print. In standard there is now 3 highly playable angels, and in ascending tempo cmc's, 3 drop (Resplendent), 4 drop (Shalai) 5 drop (Lyra).

My guess is that they will be pricey for the foreseeable future.

[Finn]

Well, the angel enables itself if you spend the mana. The +2/+2 part is not as interesting as the card advantage part, but this card's achilles heel is its need to stick around until the end step. If I am facing D+T, I would love to see my opponent tap out six mana on their turn to deal two extra damage to me. I just have to time my removal right to make it a terrible investment. For my money, Brightling is the better late game investment.

On that note, I got some results in from the weekend about Brightling and Shalai. A friend took 3x Shalai to Las Vegas for side events and a single Brightling. In three events, he lost a single match. He said that Brightling won a game, and had generally positive feedback on it. It remains to be seen whether it is better than what comes out for it. Shalia was a bomb all weekend. Their inability to interact with D+T creatures makes for a new level of the prison component that feels new and very powerful. Mother of Runes and Shalai is essentially a lock. Karakas can also fill in for this role in a pinch, or even Flickerwisp of course. Bottom line is that none of the decks he faced, including lands with recurring Punishing Fire, had any cards to reasonably deal with her. Their inability to interact with D+T creatures makes for another level of the prison component that feels very powerful. He credits her with owning games in a new way for this deck.

This is the testing list we tried out:


4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Flickerwisp
2 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Brightling
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
3 Shalai, Voice of Plenty

4 Aetheri Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

4 Swords to Plowshares

23 lands

sb:
I don't entirely remember.

[NeckBird]

https://image.redbull.com/rbcom/052/2018-06-19/1a014d55-84d9-4772-9dc3-555faaada895/0001/1/265/1/mtg-chierico-contrito.png

Contrite Cleric

2/1 flyer.

Sacrifice: exile all cards from Target player's graveyard.

We can tutor for it with Recruiter of the Guard, but just getting a one time use out of Contrite Cleric makes me skeptical. Faerie Macabre can't get countered and is 0 mana instant speed without Vial, Rest in Peace is a continuous effect, and Grafdigger's Cage comes down on turn one. Definitely good enough to test, just too slow and not high enough impact.

[Dice_Box]

Fucks me up royally. That is a card slower graveyard decks are going to be a dog to.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

This is what we should be concerning ourselves with, as it is quite scary imo.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180619/d8d100499946edab6a1565af066433ee.jpg

[Finn]

This is what we should be concerning ourselves with, as it is quite scary imo.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180619/d8d100499946edab6a1565af066433ee.jpg

uhhhhh.
I hope that is a fake.

[Dice_Box]

It's not. It's part of a cycle.

[Tyres]

This Horse is not going to be more concerning then every other piece of -1/-1 effects or sweepers. Dread of Night is much better, Marsh Casualties is and a lot of other cards are better then this Horse...Its not going to ruin DnT imo

[Secretly.A.Bee]

For the love of Thalia I hope you are correct...

[iatee]

We're the only people dumb enough to play 3 drops in legacy.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Idk, Kolaghan's Command seems popular enough...

[Lord Darkview]

I think Remorseful Reverend is the real deal. It's a 2-mana, 2-power flyer, which was already a viable flex option (see Selfless Spirit). While it's not the most powerful disruption, it is reasonable for a large number opponents in game 1. While RiP would have been better than Crypt, the reality is that a RiP-Bear's survival time would not likely have been long anyway in the removal-dominated format that is Legacy, and so the difference between the two is not quite as large as one might think. It's not an SB card, it's a 1-3x MB card in the same vein as Revoker: reasonably useful weak-disruption on an acceptably-sized body.

As for Death Pony, that card will clearly be unpleasant for us, but probably not more so than many of the other things out there. Unfortunately, this one actually does work against Shalai, but that's not likely to be too relevant. Most decks will keep playing Deluge, Marsh Casualties, and Massacre.

[DarthVicious]

I've been waiting for RiP-Bear for a long time now. It's not even spoiled in English yet and it's got a spot on my sideboard. The fact that it has flying is icing on the cake.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

You waited for a rip-bear, they give you a tormod's bear, and you are still happy...?

It's an over-costed rest in piece of crap...

[DarthVicious]

You waited for a rip-bear, they give you a tormod's bear, and you are still happy...?

It's an over-costed rest in piece of crap...

Still happy with Tormod's Bear. I'd be happier with First-striking RiP-Angel at 2 or 3 mana, but this is the best so far.

[redtwister]

What if we take this as a base, with Brightling and Remorseful Cleric (RC hereafter) as new includes that seem very strong. I'm going to go with some points Medea_ made on his stream this morning and then add a few thoughts.

Creaturesc 23 (2-3 slots open)
4 Flickerwisp
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Brightling
1 Remorseful Cleric

Spells 8
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares

Equipment 3
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Lands 23 (0-1 slots open)
12 white
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas

Sideboard
2 Cataclysm
2 Canonist
2 RiP
2 Surgical/Faerie
2 Path to Exile
2 Council's Judgment
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
2 Other (Containment Priest, Gideon, Sanctum Prelate, Pithing Needle, etc.)

WARNING: WALL OF TEXT INCOMING

Meta decks Medea_ focused on:
Grixis Delver, 4c Control, Miracles, Sneak and Show, Mono-R Prison, Lands, Reanimator, DnT, Eldrazi Stompy. (I would add in ANT; Elves isn't getting better in either case.)


The New Cards
1. Brightling seems very strong against the current Tier 1 meta: lifegain is relevant, being able to adjust P/T is relevant, bounce to evade is relevant, and vigilance isn't bad sometimes too. However, it also has a bit of a logic of it's own that it exerts on the deck building.
a. 1WW with a lot of W for effects means lands not making W are less and less welcome. Shapeshifter also makes Cavern pretty bad. The result is that we want maximum true W sources, making Horizon Canopy and possibly Flagstones the only really viable alternatives to Plains + Karakas as we currently stand.
b. Brightling may or may not make Batterskull less important. Lifelink is the first obvious similarity, but so is the ability to bounce it, and for W instead of 3. Brightling can be Vialed in but not tutored for. Brightling can also become a 5/1 or 1/5 depending on what you really need.
c. Does this become the new way to race TNN, despite the lack of offensive evasion (bounce is strictly defensive evasion)?

2. RC is a 2/1 flyer for 1W that exiles from target player's graveyard on sac. Those are not bad stats and effects.
a. Strong against Delver, ANT, and 4C in general, great against Reanimator, and Lands. Probably not hugely relevant against Mono-R Prison, Eldrazi Stompy, Elves and Sneak and Show.
b. Seems like it would wear a sword well and will come down reliably on turn 2, unlike the better tank known as Serra Avenger which is a slot it would fight over.
c. Does not necessarily wreck Tarmogoyf or DRS since it only hits one graveyard. Just saying.
d. Not taxed by Thalia and comes in off of Vial, which are important attributes.

Questions about choices if we are using Brightling main
1. Deck space gets tighter because the flex slots more or less have been 5-6 slots currently taken up by Serra Avenger, Mirran Crusader, Palace Jailer and to a much lesser extent, Shalai.
2. Probably makes a very strong case for 24 lands so you can have 16 white sources.
3. I don't think RC changes the deck as much as Brightling, since there are still plenty of situations in which we want RiP and Surgical/Faerie in the side.

Trying to Get Out of the Box (I lay no claim to making new claims here, I am just trying to assemble some thoughts i have had and ideas I have heard)
1. Do we need Batterskull if we have 1-2 Brightling?
a. Option 1: -1 SFM,, -1 Batterskull
b. Options 2a-c: -1 Batterskull, +1 Other Sword. 2a: This is potentially interesting because Sword of War and Peace is both another source of life gain and a very good card against Miracles and DnT. 2b: However, with the abilities, maybe Sword of Feast and Famine is interesting for the untap after combat, though I think it pairs less well with Crusader and does less for us in general. 2c: If lifelink and one-sided graveyard hate is relevant, maybe Sword of Light and Dark is a consideration?

2. Is Cataclysm worse if consistent access to W mana is increasingly important?
a. Cataclysm is very good versus Lands and Miracles, but would any of the above alter that math?
b. Would something like Gideon come back or even Elpseth, Knight-Errant? (No, the new 4 mana Ajani isn't good enough, but I thought about it for a couple of seconds.) Elspeth in particular has some nice synergies here.

3. If 24 lands and a very consistent W manabase is back on the table, are Palace Jailer and Shalai back on the menu? (For lots of players, Jailer never went away.)

[Tyres]

I will be going to local Legacy event (60-100 players) this saturday. I got my 2 Brightlings but not realy much time to test them. I made some theoretical thoughts about my decklist and came up with:

Lands (23):
1 Cavern
3 Karakas
4 Port
4 Wasteland
11 Plains

Creatures (26):
1 Sanctum Prelate
2 Brightling
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Recruiter
3 Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 SfM
4 Mother
4 Flickerwisp

Others (11):
4 Vial
4 Swords
1 Batterskull
1 SoFaI
1 Jitte

Sideboard:
1 Relic-Warder
1 SoWaP
1 Containment Priest
2 RiP
2 Extraction
2 Canonist
2 Path to Exile
2 Judgement
2 Cataclysm/Gideon

I played the "4 Crusader" WW DnT Stocklist for quite a while and this is very similiar to it imo. Hard to handle threats but now with diversity. Brightling is better against Miracles and Crusader against 4C for example. I will not be playing Avenger + Brightling due to the strix weakness. I realy love to play at least 1 Shalai but the Brightlings will stretch the 23 Lands Manabase already. I went up to 3 Revoker again to have more outs to multiple DRS and stuff.

What do you guys think about the Cataclysm or Gideon question in this kind of build. I'm leaning more towards Cataclysm but I dont know realy why....
Any other suggestions?

[Mannaus]

Concerning the Cataclysm/Gideon trade-off:
I did some heavy testing with Cataclysm against 4C Control lately, and turns out Cataclysm was way too often awkward. I'd say cataclysm is strictly better than Gideon only in Monored Prison Matchup. Versus lands, it can be a dead card if you cannot first deal with Loam/PFire (RiP/Surgical), but is still better than Gideon in the matchup. Versus Miracles, actually Gideon is as good as Cataclysm, since they have a very difficult time dealing with PW's. And well, versus 4C Control Gideon is definitely better im my opinion. Gideon in general is more reliable, as you can also cast it versus Maverick, DnT (if you find space for it after side), Stoneblade variants (even if TNN is an issue, it's still a lot of board advantage), whereas you'd never board in Cataclysm... If you have a metagame full of Control decks, I'd go for Gideon. If you expect a lot of MonoR/Lands and random stuff that rely heavily on Lands (Nic Fit, 12Post ...), then Cataclysm is better. But in general, even more so with your plains-heavy build, Gideon is better in most of the tier1 matchups.
Note: I understand your positive feeling about Cataclysm. The card is just so much fun. But yeah, at some point we'll have to admit that Gideon is just more reliable and performs more consistently, thus, is better ='D

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I'm pretty interested in Elspeth, although it's only because of Brightling. I still believe the soldier token a turn is too weak to matter, and I don't think the ultimate is strong enough either. I suspect Gideon or Shalai in the board as a 2-of is correct, or perhaps a 1/1 split. I do not think Cataclysm is powerful enough often enough for the effect to be good enough with the inclusion of Brightling.

Because I enjoy janky things once in a while, I did pick up a JP Bladed Pinions just to make my Brightlings even funnier. I expect it to be terrible, but I want to mess with my play group a little bit.

[Lord Darkview]

Cataclysm tends to crack Prison and Miracles decks in half, and does a decent number on a bunch of other control decks (including Pile). Gideon applies some pressure, but it's just not powerful enough in those matchups. It doesn't deliver the Earth-Shattering Kaboom (TM) that you really want on dropping a 4-mana spell. Elspeth is a bit more interesting and probably more synergistic with our 3-drops, but I don't know if that's quite enough. Most importantly, while they both can lock up a game that you're winning, they do not bail you out of one that you're losing.

Yes, I know Cataclysm does not get along well with Brightling, but that doesn't matter if casting Cataclysm just wins the game instantly. And that happens a lot more with Cataclysm than it does with Gideon.

[JacobRoberts]

I've been trying to figure out the answer to "What should my anti-control sideboard plan be?" for a while now, here are my thoughts:

Cataclysm has been rotating in and out of my sideboard for over 2 years now. I even registered it for a GP, and have literally never resolved it for value. Do other people feel like they actually resolve it enough to warrant inclusion? I can sit back and see the logic of "yeah this is usually good vs miracles, and you just have to set it up a little vs pile, and it has some other random utility" but when it comes to actual play, it just never happens for me. When I watch other people play or tune into Phil's twitch stream, I still never see it live up to the hype. I don't want it in my sideboard anymore.

I've also been really down on Gideon's power level recently. I've played multiple games across multiple archetypes (dnt, stoneblade, miracles) where I set up Gideon and resolve him to put me ahead on board and on resources, then just watch him be completely blanked by something vaguely strong like mentor + a couple cantrips or equipping a sword onto something. Not to mention how awkward it can sometimes be to set up vs pile through hymns and removal. There have been games where Gideon is good too of course, but I feel like I expect a lot more from a card that's taking up valuable sideboard space specifically to be anti-control.

So I don't really want to play either Gideon or Cataclysm. I'm hoping that Brightling is sticky and threatening enough to make a Gideon-esque "bomb threat" of the board unnecessary, and we can just use things like more recruiters, pro-W swords, extra crusaders, etc. out of the board instead. Or, if we're playing 24 lands with 16 W sources for Brightling anyway, maybe the WWW cards like Benalish Marshall and Devout Lightcaster are playable? That would be really exciting if that mana worked out for D&T.

[Medea_]

I've been trying to figure out the answer to "What should my anti-control sideboard plan be?" for a while now, here are my thoughts:

Cataclysm has been rotating in and out of my sideboard for over 2 years now. I even registered it for a GP, and have literally never resolved it for value. Do other people feel like they actually resolve it enough to warrant inclusion? I can sit back and see the logic of "yeah this is usually good vs miracles, and you just have to set it up a little vs pile, and it has some other random utility" but when it comes to actual play, it just never happens for me....

So I don't really want to play either Gideon or Cataclysm. I'm hoping that Brightling is sticky and threatening enough to make a Gideon-esque "bomb threat" of the board unnecessary, and we can just use things like more recruiters, pro-W swords, extra crusaders, etc. out of the board instead. Or, if we're playing 24 lands with 16 W sources for Brightling anyway, maybe the WWW cards like Benalish Marshall and Devout Lightcaster are playable? That would be really exciting if that mana worked out for D&T.

I've resolved a Cataclysm 22 times according to my spreadsheet. Of those, I won 18 of the games after it resolved. That's the best I can give you as far as data goes.

I can see revisiting Cataclysm as a sb card now. Honestly, is a third Brightling out of the board insane in one of those slots? The matchups where you *really* want it do go quite long, mitigating the fact that they aren't the best in multiples.

[jwl3gg]

Cataclysm is also really good against Mono Red Prison.

Thraben U down 😔

[redtwister]

And this is the kind of discussion I love to see.

@Medea_
What I would love to know is how many times have you drawn Cataclysm and been unable to cast it and died with it in hand because you didn't have the mana or been countered. That has always been my problem with CMC 4 non-creature spells and why both Cataclysm and Gideon have frustrated me. Cataclysm is, except for Miracles, essentially used to defeat deck without FoW, right? Those decks have been on the rise and Clysm is better because of it.

Medea_ also made a good point some time ago in the debate over Surgical v Faerie, which is that Surgical is an amazing card against Lands. Against Lands, even with Cataclysm, I want 2 RiP and 2 Surgical. The question, I guess, is whether or not we can reliably beat Lands with only 2 Surgical and 2 RiP. I don't think that helps vs. Miracles at all.

@Cataclysm_Beats_Mono-R_Prison
Yes, pretty much. It won't get rid of the last Ensnaring Bridge, but it will basically wipe out everything else and if their board is land/bridge/blood moon, that's fine with me.

@everyone
I really like the fact that Cataclysm is very strong against not just Lands, Miracles and Mono-R Prison, but also some other decks we see much more of now, namely Post, BG and Mid Depths, and Steel Stompy, which are basically 8% of the meta. I don't think PWs are any good against those decks.

[Tyres]

Thanks for all the input.

Many very valid points in this discussion and I would like to add that I got the feeling people are better prepared for opposing PW's then they are against cards like Cataclysm. I will compare it with something I find my self quite often when playing against Miracles. Even though we are a control deck at heart at some point in this matchup we just have to try and pull the switch to make them have the Terminus. Sure you can win games in those grindy MU's by flying to Valuetown with Recruiter + Wisp, but im not a fan of leaning to strong in that direction.
With Cataclysm your opponents often just have to play into it because they cant beat it anyway or they a just not to familiar with the card.
I myself got a lot more practice with Gideon and he won me a lot of games as well but I will try to bring Cataclysm to full work this time.

[a tribe called trest]

A quick update to that 4x avenger 4x brightling list i posted. I was bringing in 2 cataclysm and 2 path to exile and boarding out 4 thalias against pile decks. The opposing strixes just weren't that big of a deal. lilly the last hope, k command and marsh casualties didnt feel like the fistings that they normally do. Found that the thalia tax on myself was doing more harm than good with this particular build where I dont want to grind value. Just trying to smash through with brute force so having the 1 mana removals for strix and drs to pave the way were better.

[lavafrogg]

What is pushing DnT out of the DTB forum? I feel like it is just as strong as it has always been///

Too much Leovold.dec?

[ChrisCunningham]

A quick update to that 4x avenger 4x brightling list i posted. I was bringing in 2 cataclysm and 2 path to exile and boarding out 4 thalias against pile decks. The opposing strixes just weren't that big of a deal.
I don't understand what you mean when you say strixes "just weren't that big of a deal." What are you doing to their Baleful Strixes? Swordsing them? Trading with a Serra Avenger? Tapping Mom to attack and getting Mom killed? Casting Cataclysm???

[redtwister]

What is pushing DnT out of the DTB forum? I feel like it is just as strong as it has always been///

Too much Leovold.dec?

From the DTB discussion thread at the tope of Decks to Beat section:
"So how are decks selected for the DTBF?

Rather than relying on arbitrary selection or decision-making based on conjecture which can be tainted by personal bias, decks are selected for the DTBF based on their performance at recent, large, competitive Legacy tournaments. Decks which make up a very large portion of the metagame are considered DTB's." They then take the top 4.6% based on those results. DnT is apparently 1) being played by fewer players and 2) putting up fewer Top 32 results at "large, competitive events." You can see this month's tally for decks on the last page of the DTB Discussion thread.

[Medea_]

For what it's worth, I don't board in Cataclysm vs Lands. The card is really only good if you already have RiP or Surgical on Loam. Otherwise they just rebuild infinitely faster than you.

[Vicar in a tutu]

The new Tormod's Crypt-spirit is nice. However, my heart sank a little bit when I saw that it has Toughness 1. Sigh. Another creature that dies to Marsh Casualties. I would caution people who want to cut down on Serra's Avenger and play Remorseful Reverend instead. We need flyers that can keep in the air and fly over True-Name, but not flyers that die along with Mother of Runes, Thalia, Flickerwisp, Phyrexian Revoker, Recruiter of the Guard, Vryn Wingmare and whatever else 1 Toughness creatures when your opponent casts Marsh Casualties or whatever else -1/-1-effect. I would LOVE this creature if it was 2/2.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

The new Tormod's Crypt-spirit is nice. However, my heart sank a little bit when I saw that it has Toughness 1. Sigh. Another creature that dies to Marsh Casualties. I would caution people who want to cut down on Serra's Avenger and play Remorseful Reverend instead. We need flyers that can keep in the air and fly over True-Name, but not flyers that die along with Mother of Runes, Thalia, Flickerwisp, Phyrexian Revoker, Recruiter of the Guard, Vryn Wingmare and whatever else 1 Toughness creatures when your opponent casts Marsh Casualties or whatever else -1/-1-effect. I would LOVE this creature if it was 2/2.So I understand where you are coming from, but using Marsh Casualties as an example is kind of a bad one, as when I play Czech pile, I often get to kick it and give -2/-2 against DnT.

However, I get your drift, so to speak. I also agree the stats on Reverend are sub-optimal. I think that too often this will have to be played off vial in response to whatever is going on (Reanimate, Snapcaster/DRS target, whatever) to be used effectively, especially when playing against Tin Fins/Bizarro Stormy, who go off at instant speed (I understand we'll be hard-pressed to get vial to 2 before they go off, but it does happen). I'll of course be getting some, but I have doubts of it's true usefulness overall.

I was hoping for a 0/2 with both RIP effects for 1W or WW.

[Lord Darkview]

So while I am a big fan of Cataclysm, I appreciate a lot of the arguments against it. I've observed, as have others, that 4-mana non-creature spells can pose a host of problems for us. But I just had a crazy idea:

Why not put Shalai in the 4-mana SB slot?

She's good in most of the same matches we want the 4-mana non-creature spells for. She also randomly hoses other decks the way Cataclysm can, and provides positive pressure the way Gideon/Elspeth do. While she creates a bit of pressure on Vial numbers, having her makes your entire board state less vulnerable.

Is this brilliant, or merely crazy?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I'm pretty interested in Elspeth, although it's only because of Brightling. I still believe the soldier token a turn is too weak to matter, and I don't think the ultimate is strong enough either. I suspect Gideon or Shalai in the board as a 2-of is correct, or perhaps a 1/1 split. I do not think Cataclysm is powerful enough often enough for the effect to be good enough with the inclusion of Brightling.

Because I enjoy janky things once in a while, I did pick up a JP Bladed Pinions just to make my Brightlings even funnier. I expect it to be terrible, but I want to mess with my play group a little bit.

Reading is key.

Edit: I put 2 in my board to test back when I first wrote my quote.

[a tribe called trest]

I don't understand what you mean when you say strixes "just weren't that big of a deal." What are you doing to their Baleful Strixes? Swordsing them? Trading with a Serra Avenger? Tapping Mom to attack and getting Mom killed? Casting Cataclysm???

Basically, yes. Bringing in additional 1 mana removal and using it aggressively on strix. Having them exiled keeps them off rebuying them with kcommand and lilly.

[potentia]

So while I am a big fan of Cataclysm, I appreciate a lot of the arguments against it. I've observed, as have others, that 4-mana non-creature spells can pose a host of problems for us. But I just had a crazy idea:

Why not put Shalai in the 4-mana SB slot?

She's good in most of the same matches we want the 4-mana non-creature spells for. She also randomly hoses other decks the way Cataclysm can, and provides positive pressure the way Gideon/Elspeth do. While she creates a bit of pressure on Vial numbers, having her makes your entire board state less vulnerable.

Is this brilliant, or merely crazy?

I believe @Medea_ has tested Shalai and despite being really good, it maybe fits better into a Maverick build (such as in Miranda Keith's list).

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I don't think the testing threshold has been met to make a decision about Shalai, especially with recent reports of other individuals giving Shalai credit for their strong finishes. It absolutely should see play in Maverick for the ability to actively utilize the pump effect as well as her protection, but I don't think she is able to be put off completely yet in DnT.

[lavafrogg]

From the DTB discussion thread at the tope of Decks to Beat section:
"So how are decks selected for the DTBF?

Rather than relying on arbitrary selection or decision-making based on conjecture which can be tainted by personal bias, decks are selected for the DTBF based on their performance at recent, large, competitive Legacy tournaments. Decks which make up a very large portion of the metagame are considered DTB's." They then take the top 4.6% based on those results. DnT is apparently 1) being played by fewer players and 2) putting up fewer Top 32 results at "large, competitive events." You can see this month's tally for decks on the last page of the DTB Discussion thread.

So then to repeat the question:

What is causing DnT to 1) be played by fewer players, 2) put up fewer top 32 results at “large competitive events” and hence get DnT moved out of the DtB forum that you can see the tally for on the last page of the DTB discussion thread?

I have recently switched from Maverick to DFD Taxes and love it but apparently the deck is losing ground; I am wondering why?

[Lord Darkview]

I believe @Medea_ has tested Shalai and despite being really good, it maybe fits better into a Maverick build (such as in Miranda Keith's list).


I don't think the testing threshold has been met to make a decision about Shalai, especially with recent reports of other individuals giving Shalai credit for their strong finishes. It absolutely should see play in Maverick for the ability to actively utilize the pump effect as well as her protection, but I don't think she is able to be put off completely yet in DnT.

Agreed. My personal card scoring (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/15DNHhF5jyFIZu-zY92LacH4iFiFW0rTKt9cXk3bIMwg/edit?usp=sharing) ranks her as one of the ten best non-land cards in overall matchup performance, but with a variance more akin to an SB card. This is why it may make more sense as an SB card.

Basically, what happened was this. Everyone agreed Shalai was worth testing. Then they agreed Shalai was good. Then they ran into a few hiccups, mostly stemming from everyone playing more Karakas to fight Depths, or Delver where she's slow. And then Brightling came along and was the best thing we've gotten in years, and everyone forgot all about her. No one really continued testing, nor did anyone run with the results we'd discovered: excellent, but maybe inconsistent, don't we have a place for those cards?

Also, the way in which we've adapted to Brightling is synergistic with Shalai. Brightling has put many of us eager to play more lands, whereas for Shalai alone it might have been grudgingly. Also, Brightling displaced flyers in some builds, and Shalai can shore that up in matchups where it matters. Also, one of the few ways for your Brightling to get removed is to be hit with discard, especially instant speed like K. Command or V. Clique, and Shalai stops that.

I'm not saying, "This is definitely the future," but I do think it is worth considering in the same vein as PWs, Cataclysms, or extra Brightlings in the SB.

[potentia]

Agreed. My personal card scoring (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/15DNHhF5jyFIZu-zY92LacH4iFiFW0rTKt9cXk3bIMwg/edit?usp=sharing) ranks her as one of the ten best non-land cards in overall matchup performance, but with a variance more akin to an SB card. This is why it may make more sense as an SB card.

Basically, what happened was this. Everyone agreed Shalai was worth testing. Then they agreed Shalai was good. Then they ran into a few hiccups, mostly stemming from everyone playing more Karakas to fight Depths, or Delver where she's slow. And then Brightling came along and was the best thing we've gotten in years, and everyone forgot all about her. No one really continued testing, nor did anyone run with the results we'd discovered: excellent, but maybe inconsistent, don't we have a place for those cards?

Also, the way in which we've adapted to Brightling is synergistic with Shalai. Brightling has put many of us eager to play more lands, whereas for Shalai alone it might have been grudgingly. Also, Brightling displaced flyers in some builds, and Shalai can shore that up in matchups where it matters. Also, one of the few ways for your Brightling to get removed is to be hit with discard, especially instant speed like K. Command or V. Clique, and Shalai stops that.

I'm not saying, "This is definitely the future," but I do think it is worth considering in the same vein as PWs, Cataclysms, or extra Brightlings in the SB.

On this note, would it be too ambitious to run 2 Brightling and 1 Shalai MB? Though Shalai has flying, it is indeed slow vs. Serra Avenger and/or Vryn Wingmare. It feels like we should have more than 4 fliers (Flickerwisp) against Delver, preferably 6 fliers?

[Lord Darkview]

On this note, would it be too ambitious to run 2 Brightling and 1 Shalai MB? Though Shalai has flying, it is indeed slow vs. Serra Avenger and/or Vryn Wingmare. It feels like we should have more than 4 fliers (Flickerwisp) against Delver, preferably 6 fliers?

I don't think it's too ambitious, though I wouldn't do it personally. I definitely wouldn't count on Shalai being fast enough versus Delver (though if she does ETB, she probably takes over the game), and I also like extra flyers. My current plan is to run Avengers until Remorseful Clerics are available to replace them. This will probably help the Delver matchup (being that it is a native 2-drop) and some others (by virtue of its activated ability), but will weaken the matchups against things like Eldrazi or the mirror. If you want to make the speed-vs-durability tradeoff right now, some people have had success with Selfless Spirit.

[Moctzal]

On this note, would it be too ambitious to run 2 Brightling and 1 Shalai MB? Though Shalai has flying, it is indeed slow vs. Serra Avenger and/or Vryn Wingmare. It feels like we should have more than 4 fliers (Flickerwisp) against Delver, preferably 6 fliers?

I think a lot of lists are getting ambitious with trimming a lot of 2 drops, and playing too many 3s. There are some hard decisions for cuts that pilots are going to have to make pretty soon. Playing more than ~10-11 3 drops is going to be very difficult, and I feel like I'm already pushing my luck playing that many, even after cutting Batterskull. If you can find another 3 drop cut to run a maindeck 4 drop, I guess you could? It's possible that Brighling wants every mana you can spare after you untap with it, so I don't know if 4 drops in the maindeck is where I want to be.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I agree we are greedy little piggies, but I think I'm fine with that. I want vial at 3 anyway.

[Siracho]

The problem with so many 3 drips isnt that we play to few lands, but that we often dont curve well. Is a starting hand with 3 lands, vial and three 3 drops where you want to be?

[Mannaus]

Why not put Shalai in the 4-mana SB slot?



The problem is, here, that Shalai does not do much versus Terminus/Supreme Verdict/Toxic Deluge. On the contrary, it gives you an incentive to extend your board, under the protection of Shalai. So that's an issue that's not to be understated. And the only way Gideon gets removed from the battlefield by Miracle is through Council Judgment's, which also answer Shalai btw, and Czech Pile have an even harder time dealing with it.

[Lord Darkview]

I agree we are greedy little piggies, but I think I'm fine with that. I want vial at 3 anyway.

Except vs. storm-combo, where I want it at 2.


The problem with so many 3 drips isnt that we play to few lands, but that we often dont curve well. Is a starting hand with 3 lands, vial and three 3 drops where you want to be?

That depends. Against some decks I will keep this, especially if those lands are Plains, Port, Wasteland.


The problem is, here, that Shalai does not do much versus Terminus/Supreme Verdict/Toxic Deluge. On the contrary, it gives you an incentive to extend your board, under the protection of Shalai. So that's an issue that's not to be understated. And the only way Gideon gets removed from the battlefield by Miracle is through Council Judgment's, which also answer Shalai btw, and Czech Pile have an even harder time dealing with it.

Except it does. Karakas-protection has always been in consideration for Shalai, and losing 2 guys to a board wipe isn't the end of the world when you can subsequently replay Shalai. Also, throwing down Prelate under Shalai becomes a very real possibility for blocking a lot of board wipes, or throwing down some dominating offensive threat like Mirran Crusader to just close the game on its own.

Every opponent also has answers to Gideon, whether Strix + Bolt, Clique, TNN, or anything else. Shalai forces the opponent into a very narrow path, which they're less likely able to tread.

Oh, and flying is really good.

[Mannaus]

Except it does. Karakas-protection has always been in consideration for Shalai, and losing 2 guys to a board wipe isn't the end of the world when you can subsequently replay Shalai. Also, throwing down Prelate under Shalai becomes a very real possibility for blocking a lot of board wipes, or throwing down some dominating offensive threat like Mirran Crusader to just close the game on its own.

Every opponent also has answers to Gideon, whether Strix + Bolt, Clique, TNN, or anything else. Shalai forces the opponent into a very narrow path, which they're less likely able to tread.


Well, I meant she does not protect herself. You need the small combo Karakas + legendary. Plus, good Miracle players will bring in their Blood Moons, if they're on Jeskai ofc, versus DnT, to shut off Port and recursive Thalia's. So this is also something to be taken into account, when competing her with Gideon.

In general, I am not sure that relying on specific synergies is the way to go. Synergies are what makes our deck a deck, but one cannot rely on a specific setup to win, or hedge against a specific deck. Our threats need to be self-sufficient. Of course, one day you'll have the perfect setup, and no one will come close to threatening you. But most of the time you won't, and those are the times that matter. And that's why I believe Gideon is a better 4-drop. It's just more reliable, and works on its own. Of course, sometimes you'll get wrecked, and Gideon won't do anything, but I doubt any other card would really matter in those circumstances anyway. Taking a precise setup of cards, or sequence of plays, is not a good way to point out the power-level of a card, because we always find the setups in which the card is insane/really bad. What counts, is how it fares on average.
And here I must admit I didn't play Shalai enough to back my thoughts with statistics. So maybe you're right, and indeed she's a better 4-drop ouf of the board than Gideon. I guess time, and results, will tell.

[Lord Darkview]

Well, I meant she does not protect herself. You need the small combo Karakas + legendary. Plus, good Miracle players will bring in their Blood Moons, if they're on Jeskai ofc, versus DnT, to shut off Port and recursive Thalia's. So this is also something to be taken into account, when competing her with Gideon.

In general, I am not sure that relying on specific synergies is the way to go. Synergies are what makes our deck a deck, but one cannot rely on a specific setup to win, or hedge against a specific deck. Our threats need to be self-sufficient. Of course, one day you'll have the perfect setup, and no one will come close to threatening you. But most of the time you won't, and those are the times that matter. And that's why I believe Gideon is a better 4-drop. It's just more reliable, and works on its own. Of course, sometimes you'll get wrecked, and Gideon won't do anything, but I doubt any other card would really matter in those circumstances anyway. Taking a precise setup of cards, or sequence of plays, is not a good way to point out the power-level of a card, because we always find the setups in which the card is insane/really bad. What counts, is how it fares on average.
And here I must admit I didn't play Shalai enough to back my thoughts with statistics. So maybe you're right, and indeed she's a better 4-drop ouf of the board than Gideon. I guess time, and results, will tell.

This is all fair. Back to Basics is also in the Miracles toolkit. That said, this is really the only match where I'd worry about it. Many of them don't bother with Moon or B2B after game 1 against us, because we tend to manage those effects just fine (12 Basics + 4 Vials does that), and thus a Shalai out of the board may find Karakas unchecked.

As for synergies, Karakas is not our only option there. Mom + Shalai is untargetable, which basically locks out most of Delver's options other than Deluge. Prelate can also close those options down. Shalai is not about one synergy, but many possible synergies, and is fairly solid on her own. That is the story with most of the cards in our deck. Only a very few, like Brightling, are mostly self-contained in their excellence. So Shalai being good on her own, and excellent with support is not a bug, but rather a feature.

As for this specific bit:


Of course, sometimes you'll get wrecked, and Gideon won't do anything, but I doubt any other card would really matter in those circumstances anyway.

Well, that line tells me you clearly haven't played with Cataclysm enough to judge its effectiveness.

[Mannaus]

As long as it works for you and you like your choices mate, it's all fine to me. Just explaining how I'm reasoning when assessing a card, and explaining why I would rather go for Gideon over Shalai in the sideboard. It's obviously all up for debate, which is part of what makes Legacy (and DnT) such an interesting format. In the end, it's all about having thought through it, and be confident in one's choices, plus a little bit of luck on the day of the tournament.

By the way, are you the same Darkview that's also active on the Discord channel?

[Lord Darkview]

Either that, or I'm impersonating someone eminently unimportant.

[bakofried]

Could I get an invite to said Discord channel?

[Lord Darkview]

https://discord.gg/JNWb2RE

[bakofried]

Thanks. I'll be testing a list w/1 Cleric, 2 Brightling, 2 Shalai, 24th land later today. Will report back.

[Lord Darkview]

Shalai and Brightling MB both? Or Brightling MB, Shalai SB?

[bakofried]

All MB. Greedy for sure, but I'm curious. SB is same as Phil's.

[Tyres]

As posted some days ago I went to a local Legacy Tournament in northern Germany (http://www.eternal-clash.com/start/). This time we were 69 Players (quite good for the fact that Germany had a matchday in the World Cup). So 7 rounds of swiss into Top 8.

I played this:

Lands (23):
1 Cavern
3 Karakas
4 Port
4 Wasteland
11 Plains

Creatures (26):
1 Sanctum Prelate
2 Brightling
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Recruiter
3 Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 SfM
4 Mother
4 Flickerwisp

Others (11):
4 Vial
4 Swords
1 Batterskull
1 SoFaI
1 Jitte

Sideboard:
1 Relic-Warder
1 SoWaP
1 Containment Priest
2 RiP
2 Extraction
2 Canonist
2 Path to Exile
2 Judgement
2 Cataclysm


Round 1 against Sneak & Show - 2:1
G1 Lost against T4 Show & Tell = Emrakul
G2 Won with Thalia + Waste + Brightling as a normal 3/3 Beatstick
G3 Won with Wasteland on Volc and oppo couldnt find enough Lands fast enough

Round 2 against 4C Pile - 2:0
G1 Opponent played 4 Strix + Leo and some stuff but I got 4 Vials + 1 early and 1 late Crusader
G2 Opponent kept Usea + Island and 2 DRS but he never found a red source and died with Bolt, K Command, Grudge in hand.

Round 3 against Lands - 2:0
G1 Prelate on 2 and Revoker for Vortex, he died to his own Chasm
G2 RiP + Grind against Tabernacle, he missed his own trigger for his Tracker and died to Prelate some turns later

Round 4 against Burn - 2:1
G1 Swords for this turn one Guide, got some dmg from Swiftspear + Eidolon but a second SfM gets Batterskull online which takes over the game
G2 Lost against Swiftspear into Searing Blaze on SfM, Smash on my SoWaP ends me quite well
G3 very tight where I handle his threads with 2 Swords + 1 Path and creeping back in life with SoWaP but only 2 cards in hand. Me on 8 Life my oppo taps out for Firecraft and I have Thalia with Vial so he cant cast his Fireblast as well

Round 5 against 12 Post - 0:2
G1 I have a turn with 2 Wasteland but my opponent got Elvish Spirit Guide + untapped Forest + 2 Crop Rotation to blank my plays....pretty big board on my side which even can survive a Emrakul attack, I Vial in a Flickerwisp to shorten my clock targeting my Recruiter to get another Wisp. Opponent plays maindeck Warping Wail. He was then able to generate "25" Mana for hardcast Emrakul + Ulamog. Misplayed here should have played the Mana Denial plan with Port instead of shorten the clock.
G2 I played a Cataclysm when he would have been able to cast Ulamog or Ugin on his turn. He had 4 cards in hand so I guess the Cataclysm was timed well. He only had Lands + Krosan Grip in Hand and I never saw more lands and I lose this game as well.

Round 6 against DnT - 1:1
G1 Im the one who connects with Jitte first
G2 Grindy game where we both have active Mothers + Revoker my Opponent plays Gideon at some point where he maybe could climb back into the game one turn later he plays a rly bad Cataclysm loses his Gideon and im Left with SfM + Jitte and he only with a Mom and a Needle on Vial. He has a lot of life at this point and I get him down to 3 and then to one, at this point I only have to draw one more land to win the game but 7 Turns later I lose the Game.

Round 7 against BR Reanimator - 2:1
G1 Weird and grindy until he races me with a Chancelor
G2 Surgical on his turn 1 reanimate on Griselbrand, some turns later I manage to win with Karakas in play and Path on Tyrant
G3 I mull on 6 and my Oppo even to 5. I have wasteland for his Badlands which he has to play for a Looting turn 1. On his 2 turn he has a window to find exactly Reanimate with his one Mana left. He didnt and I play RiP and lock up the Top 8

So 5/1/1 and 4th place after swiss

TOP 8:

Quarters against DnT (same players as before) - 2:0
G1 Good draw with Mom, SfM and so on. Jitte connects and l win some turns later.
G2 A bit grindy but after some minor and one major misplay from my opponent I have Batterskull, SoWaP and Jitte in play.

Semis against 12 Post (again...) - 0:2
G1 TKS + Conduit of Ruin makes it impossible for me to attack on the ground and I die to a second Conduit
G2 I manage to get some early dmg in then he plays Conduit again putting Ulamog on top of his Library. Again I play (imo) a well timed Cataclysm keeping a Wisp to have a 3 Turn clock in the air. Again I cant find a land to the right time and a topdecked Expedition Map for Glimmerpost and 3 Life makes it possible for him to stay in the Game and one turn later he resolves his Ulamog.


Again a good result with some weird results...
Brightling wasnt as important as I wished. Beatstick against Sneak & Show but never saw him in important MU's (Burn, 4C).
SoWaP was sideboard MVP again
I played 3 times Cataclysm this day and one was played against me. I would say the ones I played where necessary and timed quite well but everytime a Cataclysm was resolved in a game I played today...I Lost. Gideon wouldnt have been better or something in those situations. I guess it was just not the day for the Clysm.

Lost 2 Matches today and both against the same player.

[Finn]

24th land is a good idea with that build.

[potentia]

Maybe it is a tricky question/issue but to the more experienced: how do you use statistics to base your testing? I mean, information is hardly ever enough, yet how many matches played with a certain deck against specific other decks are "enough" data to try to come to a conclusion on a "fixed decklist" for D&T?

Additionally, I imagine intensive testing is done on MTGO. During these testings are 'opponent playing level' considered or it's considered random enough?

[Lord Darkview]

Maybe it is a tricky question/issue but to the more experienced: how do you use statistics to base your testing? I mean, information is hardly ever enough, yet how many matches played with a certain deck against specific other decks are "enough" data to try to come to a conclusion on a "fixed decklist" for D&T?

Additionally, I imagine intensive testing is done on MTGO. During these testings are 'opponent playing level' considered or it's considered random enough?

I can't speak for everyone else, but I largely put every match into a personal SmartMagic Spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oUe5-0y-tMiMYtFgJjOodor-O2zUgEvURPJQ0kPpmA4/edit#gid=913288559), and go from there. I don't try to make determinations based on factors like skill level as there are too many things to take into account (level of overall talent, familiarity with legacy, practice with their specific deck, level of focus, fatigue, luck, and so forth). There has to be a pretty good reason for me not to count a match (like: my opponent straight-up concedes to me to go get food). But these are a reflection of my play as much as they are the strength of overall pairings.

While there is not an agreed "optimal list," and such a list would vary by metagame, there are certain points of general agreement that basically all reasonably successful players agree on after playing something approaching 100 matches. Examples might be, "Turbo Depths is an easy match," "Elves is almost unwinnable," "Prioritize Thalia turn 2 against an unknown opponent playing blue, black, or red," and so on. So while there are going to be some disagreements (see the heated debate over 4-mana SB cards above), there is a lot that is fairly fixed and invariant across the population.

[potentia]

I can't speak for everyone else, but I largely put every match into a personal SmartMagic Spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oUe5-0y-tMiMYtFgJjOodor-O2zUgEvURPJQ0kPpmA4/edit#gid=913288559), and go from there. I don't try to make determinations based on factors like skill level as there are too many things to take into account (level of overall talent, familiarity with legacy, practice with their specific deck, level of focus, fatigue, luck, and so forth). There has to be a pretty good reason for me not to count a match (like: my opponent straight-up concedes to me to go get food). But these are a reflection of my play as much as they are the strength of overall pairings.

While there is not an agreed "optimal list," and such a list would vary by metagame, there are certain points of general agreement that basically all reasonably successful players agree on after playing something approaching 100 matches. Examples might be, "Turbo Depths is an easy match," "Elves is almost unwinnable," "Prioritize Thalia turn 2 against an unknown opponent playing blue, black, or red," and so on. So while there are going to be some disagreements (see the heated debate over 4-mana SB cards above), there is a lot that is fairly fixed and invariant across the population.

Thanks for the link to the spreadsheet. I had one of my own but this spreadsheet is way better!

What other sources for Legacy D&T content do you follow? Regarding streamers on Twitch, who else is worth following aside from Phil?

[Medea_]

Thanks for the link to the spreadsheet. I had one of my own but this spreadsheet is way better!

What other sources for Legacy D&T content do you follow? Regarding streamers on Twitch, who else is worth following aside from Phil?

Bahra (https://www.twitch.tv/bahra_) is great. though isn't regularly streaming currently. XJcloud (https://www.twitch.tv/xjcloud)produces regular content as well, often streaming right after I finish up; the quality isn't as high as other streams at times, but it is still useful.

[jwl3gg]

My local $15 event only had 8 players so we played 3 rounds. Went 2-0-1. Brightling is a champ and a half.

[bakofried]

Ended up playing against Miracles and UW StoneBlade a truckload of times. Brightling felt great. It+Vial@3 was basically beatable. Shalai...less so. It was probably just a function of the match-up though. White removal is really good against her, especially when the opponent has access to sweepers and may not care about Mother+Shalai. I'll need to give her another run against other decks before I come to a firmer conclusion, however.

One strike against her: ticking Vial up to 4 feels -awful- with Brightling in the deck.

[colo]

Toying with G splash ideas again... did you know that Rishkar, Peema Renegade exists? This is an interesting creature, I think: recruitable, brings 3 or 4 power on the table, helps offset -1/-1 effects and damage-based removal, can help accelerate/stabilize mana considerably, and has an interesting recursion element with Karakas. I am somewhat intrigued - it could even make Shalai's activated ability usable.

[ParisFlorian]

Hi all, I am new to this archetype, and I am building a Boros version (I really like Jonathan Job list).

I have 3 questions :

I would like to play an Orzhov Pontiff ; are the 4 Vials + 2 Caverns enough to cast it reliably, or do I need a Scrubland ?
Is really P&K Naalar the best 4 drop in this build ? what about Shalai ?
Is Brighling worth playing (as a 1 of ?) despite the 2 Caverns that do not produce white mana for its activated abilities ?


Thanks :)

[colo]

Hi all, I am new to this archetype, and I am building a Boros version (I really like Jonathan Job list).

I have 3 questions :

I would like to play an Orzhov Pontiff ; are the 4 Vials + 2 Caverns enough to cast it reliably, or do I need a Scrubland ?
Is really P&K Naalar the best 4 drop in this build ? what about Shalai ?
Is Brighling worth playing (as a 1 of ?) despite the 2 Caverns that do not produce white mana for its activated abilities ?


Thanks :)

Ad Scrubland: I played a list with 3 Cavern of Souls and 4 Aether Vials as the only ways to put both Magus of the Moon and Orzhov Pontiff onto the battlefield. Sure, you end up with them "stranded" in your hand every once in a hwile, but the benefits hugely outweight the drawbacks, in my experience. You definitely do not need a dual-/fetchland manabase for a very light, creature-only splash to work.

Ad P&K: I guess it depends on the particular metagame, but frankly, I'm not very up to date on D&T these days. Both are very good cars in a vacuum, but I'd say that P&K is the stronger option in a Miracles-infested metagame (mainly due to them being recruitable), while the 2 toughness is a liability in a metagame with Kolaghan's Command running rampant.

Ad Brightling: A promising and very flexible option, but I'm somewhat unsure of its viability in a cavern-heavy build. I think you really want unconditionally white mana available with this card, and you'll often find yourself without that in a list that runs 4 Wasteland, 4 Rishadan Port, and 2-3 Cavern of Souls.

[Lord Darkview]

Hi all, I am new to this archetype, and I am building a Boros version (I really like Jonathan Job list).

I have 3 questions :

I would like to play an Orzhov Pontiff ; are the 4 Vials + 2 Caverns enough to cast it reliably, or do I need a Scrubland ?
Is really P&K Naalar the best 4 drop in this build ? what about Shalai ?
Is Brighling worth playing (as a 1 of ?) despite the 2 Caverns that do not produce white mana for its activated abilities ?


Thanks :)

On using Caverns over Duals+Fetches: Not a great idea. With 4 Caverns, you will usually be able to cast them. However, now you have a lot of potentially non-white mana sources in a deck that needs a lot of white mana. If you want to reliably cast Pontiff AND Flickerwisp, you need to use fetches and duals.

On PnKN vs Shalai: They're both great, but different. PnKN is one of the two best reasons to play Wr, and is absolutely crushing versus control. Shalai is also good, but a drop weaker versus control and instead with lots of upside against random other decks. Both of these cards are under pressure by Brightling though, who really wants all of your mana, and your Vials to stay on 3.

On Brightling in a Caverns build: Probably yes, but I definitely wouldn't go over 2 copies. You really want triple-white (or at least Vial and white) for best results, and a Cavern manabase won't find that third white source until turn 7 on average.

[potentia]

What if we take this as a base, with Brightling and Remorseful Cleric (RC hereafter) as new includes that seem very strong. I'm going to go with some points Medea_ made on his stream this morning and then add a few thoughts.

Creaturesc 23 (2-3 slots open)
4 Flickerwisp
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Brightling
1 Remorseful Cleric

Spells 8
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares

Equipment 3
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Lands 23 (0-1 slots open)
12 white
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas

Sideboard
2 Cataclysm
2 Canonist
2 RiP
2 Surgical/Faerie
2 Path to Exile
2 Council's Judgment
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
2 Other (Containment Priest, Gideon, Sanctum Prelate, Pithing Needle, etc.)

WARNING: WALL OF TEXT INCOMING

Meta decks Medea_ focused on:
Grixis Delver, 4c Control, Miracles, Sneak and Show, Mono-R Prison, Lands, Reanimator, DnT, Eldrazi Stompy. (I would add in ANT; Elves isn't getting better in either case.)


The New Cards
1. Brightling seems very strong against the current Tier 1 meta: lifegain is relevant, being able to adjust P/T is relevant, bounce to evade is relevant, and vigilance isn't bad sometimes too. However, it also has a bit of a logic of it's own that it exerts on the deck building.
a. 1WW with a lot of W for effects means lands not making W are less and less welcome. Shapeshifter also makes Cavern pretty bad. The result is that we want maximum true W sources, making Horizon Canopy and possibly Flagstones the only really viable alternatives to Plains + Karakas as we currently stand.
b. Brightling may or may not make Batterskull less important. Lifelink is the first obvious similarity, but so is the ability to bounce it, and for W instead of 3. Brightling can be Vialed in but not tutored for. Brightling can also become a 5/1 or 1/5 depending on what you really need.
c. Does this become the new way to race TNN, despite the lack of offensive evasion (bounce is strictly defensive evasion)?

2. RC is a 2/1 flyer for 1W that exiles from target player's graveyard on sac. Those are not bad stats and effects.
a. Strong against Delver, ANT, and 4C in general, great against Reanimator, and Lands. Probably not hugely relevant against Mono-R Prison, Eldrazi Stompy, Elves and Sneak and Show.
b. Seems like it would wear a sword well and will come down reliably on turn 2, unlike the better tank known as Serra Avenger which is a slot it would fight over.
c. Does not necessarily wreck Tarmogoyf or DRS since it only hits one graveyard. Just saying.
d. Not taxed by Thalia and comes in off of Vial, which are important attributes.

Questions about choices if we are using Brightling main
1. Deck space gets tighter because the flex slots more or less have been 5-6 slots currently taken up by Serra Avenger, Mirran Crusader, Palace Jailer and to a much lesser extent, Shalai.
2. Probably makes a very strong case for 24 lands so you can have 16 white sources.
3. I don't think RC changes the deck as much as Brightling, since there are still plenty of situations in which we want RiP and Surgical/Faerie in the side.

Trying to Get Out of the Box (I lay no claim to making new claims here, I am just trying to assemble some thoughts i have had and ideas I have heard)
1. Do we need Batterskull if we have 1-2 Brightling?
a. Option 1: -1 SFM,, -1 Batterskull
b. Options 2a-c: -1 Batterskull, +1 Other Sword. 2a: This is potentially interesting because Sword of War and Peace is both another source of life gain and a very good card against Miracles and DnT. 2b: However, with the abilities, maybe Sword of Feast and Famine is interesting for the untap after combat, though I think it pairs less well with Crusader and does less for us in general. 2c: If lifelink and one-sided graveyard hate is relevant, maybe Sword of Light and Dark is a consideration?

2. Is Cataclysm worse if consistent access to W mana is increasingly important?
a. Cataclysm is very good versus Lands and Miracles, but would any of the above alter that math?
b. Would something like Gideon come back or even Elpseth, Knight-Errant? (No, the new 4 mana Ajani isn't good enough, but I thought about it for a couple of seconds.) Elspeth in particular has some nice synergies here.

3. If 24 lands and a very consistent W manabase is back on the table, are Palace Jailer and Shalai back on the menu? (For lots of players, Jailer never went away.)

I believe the issues raised in this post (above) are the ones that will give fuel to a good discussion towards an attempt to consolidate a 'new' WW D&T decklist. I think we should be discussing (and soon testing) these points.

[ChrisCunningham]

We are used to Wasteland + Port being a mini-combo, because Wasteland tells opponents to fetch basics, but Port is very good against basics.

Field of Ruin is getting more interesting to me. It helps with the same kind of tension (opponents have to fetch their basics, but if they fetch all of the basics, Field of Ruin is excellent). Field of Ruin also ends up being a white source later in the game which is exactly where we are currently looking for more white sources (Brightling and 2WW noncreature spells).

My most mana-hungry list (with full SFM package and 3 Brightling) is now running 25 lands: the standard 12 plains, 3 Karakas but then 4 Waste, 4 Port, 2 Field.

[Umezete]

We are used to Wasteland + Port being a mini-combo, because Wasteland tells opponents to fetch basics, but Port is very good against basics.

Field of Ruin is getting more interesting to me. It helps with the same kind of tension (opponents have to fetch their basics, but if they fetch all of the basics, Field of Ruin is excellent). Field of Ruin also ends up being a white source later in the game which is exactly where we are currently looking for more white sources (Brightling and 2WW noncreature spells).

My most mana-hungry list (with full SFM package and 3 Brightling) is now running 25 lands: the standard 12 plains, 3 Karakas but then 4 Waste, 4 Port, 2 Field.


How's 3 brightling treating you? I bought a foil set and am debating on how many to sell. 4 is definitely too many but I can see 3.

I do like field of ruin if you go up to 25 lands, it's pretty "free," hate.

[Lord Darkview]

At 25 land, I'd really start to worry about threat density versus Pile and similar decks where Brightling does not ensure a win on its own.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I bought 4 Japanese nonfoil as that is my "thing" and I won't be getting rid of any.

25 lands is a lot...but for 3 Brightling, maybe? I'm on 24 lands, 2 B-ling main, 1 B-ling and so far, so good. Truth time: card is really good vs. Czech Pile so far. A lot of their removal isn't good enough, nor do they really have enough of it. Strix gets overwhelmed by the first half of the game where it's DnT business as usual, as well as the trickle of creatures later.

I am, however, not doing very well vs. Miracles, the UW build, not the red splash.

[G0R3F3ST]

Hey everyone! I thought I would share my success this week at my local game store. I went 4-0 on my Tuesday night event and 3-1 on my Friday night event, missing the perfect week by losing my last round. My thoughts when I first saw brightling in the battlebond spoilers, was it is playable, just not for me. Now that I've tested it. It is now one of my favorite cards in the deck. Brightling has saved me in so many games and matches.
Here is my decklist.

Creatures:26
X4 mother of runes
X4 Thalia, GOT
X4 stoneforge mystic
X2 phyrexian revoker
X2 Serra avenger
X4 flickerwisp
X2 recruiter of the guard
X2 Miran crusader
X2 brightling

Spells: 11
X4 aether vial
X4 swords to plowshares
X1 umezawa's jitte
X1 sword of fire and ice
X1 batterskull

Lands: 23
6 plains
6 snow covered plains
3 Karakas
4 wasteland
4 rishadan port

Sideboard: 15
X3 path to exile
X2 ethersworn canonist
X1 containment priest
X1 leonin relic warder
X3 rest in piece
X1 recruiter of the guard
X2 council's judgment
X2 cataclysm

I didn't really take detailed notes about my matches. Just what won me the game. There is footage of my Friday night matches on twitch( paragon city games) However, they jump back and forth too much to get the full match.

Tuesday night report: 4-0
Rnd 1 Merfolk:2-0
G1: removal and Serra avenger equipped with sofai for the win.
G2: batterskull equipped with sofai for the win.

Rnd 2 grixis delver: 2-0
No notes

Rnd 3 grixis delver: 2-1
No notes

Rnd 4 WUr miracles: 2-0
G1: double vial, ported down, wasted,and flickered there white sources. I dealt 10 damage one combat and 14 the next combat.
G2: he is at 9 life. I have another massive board state with vial on 3. He taps out to cast terminus and on his end step, I put in mirran crusader. Then on my turn I equip Sofia and attack for lethal.

Friday night event: 3-1
Rnd 1 BUG control: 2-0
G1: mirran crusader equipped with sofai for the win.
G2: opp. Keeps one land hand with dread of night. I win with 3 stoneforge mystics in play.

Rnd 2 tezzarator: 2-0
I was on stream so I didn't take notes.

Rnd 3 grixis delver: 2-1
I was on stream so no notes again.

Rnd 4 UW miracles: 0-2
I was on stream. if you feel like watching me choke go right ahead.

[Finn]

Brightling sure did look strong in your matches. I have been liking Brightling also. The many options are a bigger deal than I would have expected. As I have mentioned, Shalai has also been strong. Does anyone have anything bad to say about Brightling?

[G0R3F3ST]

^ ww was kind of awkward sometimes. You just have to keep those opening 7 hands with a w land, a colorless, and a vial. Then hope to draw a 2ND w land.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Finn, where are you putting Shalai and how many are you using?

[Medea_]

Brightling sure did look strong in your matches. I have been liking Brightling also. The many options are a bigger deal than I would have expected. As I have mentioned, Shalai has also been strong. Does anyone have anything bad to say about Brightling?

I have gotten a TON of messages/emails/pms about Brightling. People love it.

[Finn]

Finn, where are you putting Shalai and how many are you using?
I am hoping that Brightling can simply be our beater. I think the deck wants three, but I do not own three yet. Shalia is something new. I had three for testing, and it did not feel like too many. But, ya know. Space.



4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Flickerwisp
2 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Sanctum Prelate
2 Brightling
2 Shalai, Voice of Plenty

4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice <--thanks, Jumbo
1 Batterskull

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Karakas
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Plains
5 Snow-Covered Plains


On another note: I realize that the deck is trending into expensive creatures. I am more comfortable with this than I used to be. They are actually larger and so harder to kill for red.

[ChrisCunningham]

How's 3 brightling treating you? I bought a foil set and am debating on how many to sell. 4 is definitely too many but I can see 3.

I do like field of ruin if you go up to 25 lands, it's pretty "free," hate.

The only quality testing I have is against miracles, and every single game felt trivially easy with 3 Brightling. This makes sense though; if we add a bunch of expensive unkillable stuff we will be better against control decks that don't have Baleful Strix. Having tons of lands felt amazing, too. One time I drew all 3 Brightling, which was sad because I couldn't effectively deploy a second one, but then, it wasn't all that sad since the first one instantly ended the game.

When your board is Thalia+Brightling and you have Karakas+Plains up, and your opponent has to Terminus nothing just for tempo, you're doing it.

[mrjumbo03]

@Finn, your list only has 59 cards. I'm assuming you missed the SOFI.

[Marungo]

DRS and probe are banned.

Maybe now I can play dnt again haha

[mrjumbo03]

Might be premature but I reckon we'll be a DTB again in no time. Time to punish those $1000+ manabases again.

[jwl3gg]

Here’s to hoping Reanimator makes a comeback, how do we against matchup Canadian Threshold?

[Marungo]

Here’s to hoping Reanimator makes a comeback, how do we against matchup Canadian Threshold?

Great. Actual 75-25 if not better

[Bosque]

Here’s to hoping Reanimator makes a comeback, how do we against matchup Canadian Threshold?

We do great against RUG. Delver decks used to be our dream matchup pre-DRS and Angler.

[Barook]

We do great against RUG. Delver decks used to be our dream matchup pre-DRS and Angler.
Makes me wonder how D&T is positioned now that Brightling turned out to be the new hotness AND DRS being gone.

[redtwister]

Feels like this is going to be a pretty epic shake-up. I have never played Legacy without DRS and Probe.

Does Delver just become RUG and UR? Wasn't BUG pretty DRS-dependent too?

Wow, mana is going to be pretty wild.

I guess I expect Stifle to return now.

[colo]

These are exciting times! I'm very OK with both of these extremely boring cards gone for good. I'm pretty sure that no matter the direction the meta is going to take, D&T will be well-equipped - maybe even better than ever! - to deal with it.

[Finn]

These are exciting times! I'm very OK with both of these extremely boring cards gone for good. I'm pretty sure that no matter the direction the meta is going to take, D&T will be well-equipped - maybe even better than ever! - to deal with it.

True. I think it would be wise to pack a bit of extra graveyard hate for awhile at least as players take their reanimator and dredge decks out of mothballs. And I expect to be more dependent upon Enlightened Tutor during the immediate transition because the meta will be less predictable. In fact, I would like to see a list that attempts to be complete of this sort (which of course is not).

Expect to see more of:
Miracles
Reanimator
Lands
mirror

Expect to see less of:
Jund
Leovold
Kolaghan's Command
Storm
Tropical Island

[Gruul]

Hello there, first post from a long time lurker and D&T player. ;)

And what a day to post my first message here !

Elves took a hit, and I guess... Baleful Strix too ? It's hard to evaluate whether GBx fair decks will manage to stay viable, but it makes me wanna go down to 1x Mirran Crusader right now (it also strenghtens the choice of only 2x Phyrexian Revoker). I feel it's going to be about how good Noble Hierarch and Tarmogoyf will become.

[frenadol]

I'm crying with happiness right now. After 5 years of agony, I feel like justice has finally been served. What's coming is the Legacy I know and love, and I'll thoroughly enjoy every single minute of it until WotC inevitably fucks it up again.

Also, keep an eye on Containment Priest, and buy them if you still don't have them. The card hits Maverick, Sneak, Reanimator, Tin Fins, Dredge and many other decks that will be assured to play a big part in the new meta.

[Boneflute]

I'm crying with happiness right now. After 5 years of agony, I feel like justice has finally been served. What's coming is the Legacy I know and love, and I'll thoroughly enjoy every single minute of it until WotC inevitably fucks it up again.

Also, keep an eye on Containment Priest, and buy them if you still don't have them. The card hits Maverick, Sneak, Reanimator, Tin Fins, Dredge and many other decks that will be assured to play a big part in the new meta.

Good call on the Priests. I am extremely excited about playing Reanimator and D&T in the upcoming meta.

The mana-denial game is what D&T does best, and DRS was a huge pain, having to use Swords or Revoker naming DRS.
A turn one DRS on the play was so frustratingly powerful, considering how D&T needs to stay ahead to effectively deny your opponent's resources.

Going forward, I am curious to see how D&T will adapt to the use of different mana sources. I feel like Thalia + Wasteland improved greatly. I'm really excited about mana denial, especially early in the format. The printing of cards like Brightling. Meh. Card is great. But, I'm tired of hearing about the white morphling.
Beaters are beaters. It's the hatebears that bring home the bacon.

[potentia]

Maybe Sanctum Prelate becomes relevant again?

[Marungo]

Maybe Sanctum Prelate becomes relevant again?

It was always relevant.

That aside I feel real happy about all these changes. Still not sold on Brightling and if anything this banning hurts that card. We will see how the format levels out. At this point thinking any current list is up to date or correct is wrong. We got some meta gaming to figure out. And that’s exciting.

[Lord Darkview]

Just adding my voice to the chorus that is very optimistic for this turn of events. I also don't think that my build needs much tweaking either for the anticipated meta. Good times.

[Medea_]

Tomorrow morning at ~9:15 am EST I'm going to stream a discussion on the Post-DRS/Probe world. Then streams from there on out will be Brightling testing parties!!! https://www.twitch.tv/deathandtaxesftw

[Umezete]

It was always relevant.

That aside I feel real happy about all these changes. Still not sold on Brightling and if anything this banning hurts that card. We will see how the format levels out. At this point thinking any current list is up to date or correct is wrong. We got some meta gaming to figure out. And that’s exciting.


I disagree, brightling is a safer late game threat than crusader in the open meta. It's also a fast clock even without equip. I think the bannings cemented the card in d&t for now.

[DarthVicious]

Makes me wonder how D&T is positioned now that Brightling turned out to be the new hotness AND DRS being gone.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ha-uagjJQ9k

As good as it can be, don't we have enough mana sinks between equipment, Stoneforge and Ports? It's also a mostly defensive card, and it doesn't help versus True-Derp. Granted, they can't race Brightling by attacking with TNN because lifelink, but lifelink is negated if they use it to block Brightling.

I will admit it does look stellar vs burn decks however. And it's miles easier to keep alive than most anything else.

Also, off topic, Tormod's Flying Bear looks pretty damn good in a post-DRS world.

[Finn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ha-uagjJQ9k

As good as it can be, don't we have enough mana sinks between equipment, Stoneforge and Ports? It's also a mostly defensive card, and it doesn't help versus True-Derp. Granted, they can't race Brightling by attacking with TNN because lifelink, but lifelink is negated if they use it to block Brightling.

I will admit it does look stellar vs burn decks however. And it's miles easier to keep alive than most anything else.

Also, off topic, Tormod's Flying Bear looks pretty damn good in a post-DRS world.

I think I am okay with Brightling causing True-Name Nemesis to stay on defense. I would even call that a win. But that is when we face it against BUG colors. You should expect to see it paired with Stoneforge Mystic in the coming months, making that standoff much less in our favor.

[Marungo]

I disagree, brightling is a safer late game threat than crusader in the open meta. It's also a fast clock even without equip. I think the bannings cemented the card in d&t for now.

We will see. I’m not sold on a mana sink that’s not tutorable and a slower overall clock than crusader. And please nobody reply what it does well. I can read that card, I know what it does well and the sheer fact I own it means I clearly don’t think it’s bad. I just don’t think it’s some slam dunk staple nor even something that is better in this blind meta. I will say I believe not playing a prelate main is a mistake right now.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

We will see. I’m not sold on a mana sink that’s not tutorable and a slower overall clock than crusader. And please nobody reply what it does well. I can read that card, I know what it does well and the sheer fact I own it means I clearly don’t think it’s bad. I just don’t think it’s some slam dunk staple nor even something that is better in this blind meta. I will say I believe not playing a prelate main is a mistake right now.Why do you think Prelate main is the right choice right now? Is it because you think more combo is on the horizon?

[Marungo]

Why do you think Prelate main is the right choice right now? Is it because you think more combo is on the horizon?

Yes. Combo and lands are gonna be just some of the “free wins” decks I expect initially. Don’t know if y’all remember but prelate is a house vs lands. It’s also a 1 of that is even better against RUG Delver than it was vs Grixis. In general a very strong card that can hedge our matchups vs the combo and lands decks that people play in the initial weeks. The format won’t be the same fair and midrange grindfest it has been imo.

[Gruul]

Could Remorseful Cleric become a timely MD adaptation to a resurgence of GY strategies ? I find the BR Rea MU to be horrendous G1.

[Umezete]

Could Remorseful Cleric become a timely MD adaptation to a resurgence of GY strategies ? I find the BR Rea MU to be horrendous G1.

It shouldn't be horrendous, g1 is pretty close to 50/50, they're slightly favored in the first turn or two but you are favored if they don't nut draw kill you.

G2 and 3 are favored for us.

[redtwister]

Expect to see more of:
Miracles
Reanimator
Lands
mirror


Other winners...
RUG Delver
UR Delver?
Jeskai Delver??
Bant Stoneblade (probably Stoneblade in general)
Bant Shardless
Stifle

DRS loss certainly virtually ends the top 4c decks and "slow" Depths, but Gitaxian Probe ban also somewhat hurts ANT/TES, FTK combo, and Sneak and Show (and obviously any Young Pyro deck, aka Grixis Delver.) I'm not saying it makes them unplayable, but they lose free perfect information (whether for Cabal Therapy or simply to go off) + draw + storm count. I think that if Git Probe was minor, it would not have been banned because it isn't like Infect was a problem.

I don't know if Grixis or BUG Delver are playable, but they won't be the same. The main thing is that Legacy will have several Delver decks that play out in distinctly different ways.

Cabal Therapy becomes much, much worse.

I don't think Maverick is better. It is now actively worse than DnT without DRS (I think it was already worse, but this is another hit.)

Will Mono-Red Prison still be good? It is very hard to say. It thrived on Blood Moon being very good because of greedy mana relying on DRS. If people start playing more basics, then Moon decks get worse. If that happens, then Eldrazi Stompy may become the stompy deck of choice again and get new life.

I'm all in with Medea_ on fringe decks like Aluren, Food Chain, etc. losing out big time.

Here is what I plan to play:
2 Remorseful Cleric main for Reanimator and Lands and possible Goyf return, and not bad against Miracles.
2-3 Brightling main (very good versus Miracles and I think it will be important against TNN decks.)

Sideboard...
What happens to PtE? I think we don't run it as a 2-3 of any longer, if at all because I am not sure we can afford to give people basic lands.

2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Council's Judgment
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Rest in Peace
1 Containment Priest
1 Leonin-Relic Warder
1 Holy Light (Stoneblade, Goblins, the new mana dorks, and Elves)
1 Enlightened Tutor

Possible options:
Seal of Cleansing
Dismember
Cataclysm (depends on if stuff like Mono-Red Prison stays in because it was especially for fighting Mircles and Czech Pile)
Pithing Needle
Sword of War and Peace

[jwl3gg]

Need 2 containment priests for Sneak and show.

[redtwister]

I take back the removal of PtE. I wasn't thinking about how good it is against Reanimator and Sneak and Show. Ugh.

[Lord Darkview]

4 StP, 3 Karakas, 2 Remorseful Cleric seem fine for Reanimator in game 1. 2 PtE, 2 RiP, 2 Surgical, and 2 CJ after boarding will also be impactful. I think BR is a bit worse than a coin flip overall. I don't know what to think of UB: they're slower which gives us a turn or two to use our hate, but there is a shot that hate is beaten by discard and countermagic.

Either way, I don't really see room for Priest, since he's really best in our dead loser matchups (Elves and SnS), and we have better hate besides. I think I'd run Faerie Macabre first. Not a bad card, but I can't see myself playing more than one.

[Rascalyote]

"I don't think Maverick is better. It is now actively worse than DnT without DRS (I think it was already worse, but this is another hit.)"

Maverick was tier 1 before DRS. Knight, Thalia, Wasteland, Ramunap Excavator all get better, and one of it's great matchups (RUG Delver) seems like it's going to be popular for a while.

[Lord Darkview]

Not sure who that quote is from. Maverick is almost certainly better able to execute its strategy in the absence of DRS. That said, I'm not sure how Maverick is positioned for the new changes. P. Fire isn't great versus RUG Delver, but they probably out-punch that deck anyway. If combo ticks up though, that could be a problem. Their anti-combo tools aren't typically quite as good as ours (at least not without a significant black splash).

[jwl3gg]

4 StP, 3 Karakas, 2 Remorseful Cleric seem fine for Reanimator in game 1. 2 PtE, 2 RiP, 2 Surgical, and 2 CJ after boarding will also be impactful. I think BR is a bit worse than a coin flip overall. I don't know what to think of UB: they're slower which gives us a turn or two to use our hate, but there is a shot that hate is beaten by discard and countermagic.

Either way, I don't really see room for Priest, since he's really best in our dead loser matchups (Elves and SnS), and we have better hate besides. I think I'd run Faerie Macabre first. Not a bad card, but I can't see myself playing more than one.

That’s why Cavern of Souls is such a great card, uncounterable answer to their deck is awesome.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

That’s why Cavern of Souls is such a great card, uncounterable answer to their deck is awesome.I can't imagine it's correct to play Cavern these days. Yesterday I took apart Czech Pile, dusted off the old Mongeese, Goyfs and Stifles, then immediately put together Canadian Thresh. My guess is that there were several Grixis Delver and Czech Pile players that all did the same thing. With that in mind, and this deck getting immediately better due to mana denial becoming more potent, we should be seeing a lot more Wastelands than we have in the last 5 years. This and B-ling make it feel really bad ATM imo.

[jwl3gg]

I take this hurts RW Taxes, rise of wasteland hurts.

[colo]

I think Bee's analysis is spot-on - but Wasteland's stock going up is very good for D&T itself. The mana denial plan will be much easier to actually follow through without the omnipresent DRS sucking mana out of both graveyards, and turning into an inevitable mini-Drain Life later on.

Depending on how much W we're gonna see in the coming weeks, I think that Epochrasite will be a card to have on your radar. It's really, really good against all the "vanilla" removal you're going to see, and a star off of Vial that can be recruited and, if need be, flickered.

[Mad Mat]

I think Bee's analysis is spot-on - but Wasteland's stock going up is very good for D&T itself. The mana denial plan will be much easier to actually follow through without the omnipresent DRS sucking mana out of both graveyards, and turning into an inevitable mini-Drain Life later on.
I expect wasteland's stock to stay mostly the same. The loss of DRS will be compensated by manabases less susceptible to wasteland. The stock of port will go up more, because people need to get more mana value out of (basic) lands rather than mana dorks now. They can still play mana dorks, but these constrain deckbuilding much more than DRS did and they're more vulnerable to -1/-1 hate. So the stock of pontiff goes up as well - especially because true-names will become more prevalent too.


Depending on how much W we're gonna see in the coming weeks, I think that Epochrasite will be a card to have on your radar. It's really, really good against all the "vanilla" removal you're going to see, and a star off of Vial that can be recruited and, if need be, flickered.
I expect a lot of W. And the decks that try something different (e.g. ru(g) delver, infect, combo, stompy) will not give a damn about Epochrasite either.

[Lord Darkview]

That’s why Cavern of Souls is such a great card, uncounterable answer to their deck is awesome.


I can't imagine it's correct to play Cavern these days. Yesterday I took apart Czech Pile, dusted off the old Mongeese, Goyfs and Stifles, then immediately put together Canadian Thresh. My guess is that there were several Grixis Delver and Czech Pile players that all did the same thing. With that in mind, and this deck getting immediately better due to mana denial becoming more potent, we should be seeing a lot more Wastelands than we have in the last 5 years. This and B-ling make it feel really bad ATM imo.

Yeah, basically this. We're down to running about half Humans at most, and our other types are generally 4-ofs at most. I don't think it's worth it to force Remorseless Cleric (or even a Brightling) in and be stuck with a colorless source that also gets balked by Wasteland, Moon, or B2B. I don't think punching through countermagic is sufficient reason for running them, especially when the decks that play the most countermagic also have very powerful answers to Cavern of Souls.

[potentia]

Has anyone come to a conclusion as to whether we should run 23 or 24 lands with the addition of 2 Brightling into our WW deck?

I know we are going to be more mana-hungry because of Brightling but does that mean we should *definitely* use 24 lands or 23 is also acceptable?

[DarthVicious]

Has anyone come to a conclusion as to whether we should run 23 or 24 lands with the addition of 2 Brightling into our WW deck?

I've been running 24 land for quite some time and it feels perfect to me. More white sources are good, but sometimes the utility you get from Caverns/Canopy is very nice. Mine is 12 Plains, 4 Karakas, 4 Wasteland, 4 Port. Most people would say 4 Karakas is too much, but I still have 1 Mangara main, not to mention the utility it gives vs Reanimator/Sneak Show.


Why do you think Prelate main is the right choice right now? Is it because you think more combo is on the horizon?

Prelate is relevant in nearly every matchup. I've been running 3 main since it was released. Yes, it can be Recruited for, but I'm not going to run additional 1/1's just so I can run less 2/2's. I'd rather draw a Prelate than a Recruiter most of the time.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I too am running 24. However, I'm running 61 cards, and the 24th land is a Canopy.

[Lord Darkview]

23 or 24 lands is fine. I'm still on 23 since I'm really concerned about threat density and think it's okay not to cast Brightling until after turn 4 when you have other stuff to do. That said, there is a solid argument for 24. Horizon Canopy is probably a fine compromise on the slot now since if you care about it, you have a lifelinker on the table.

As for Prelate, I've always kept 1 MB, and have vacillated between 0 and 1 SB. Prelate forms a hard answer to many combos and has strong utility against 3 of the most powerful control decks (Lands, Red Prison, and Miracles). That said, it also has poor matchups against tempo and board-heavy decks. For that reason, I like having a copy to recruit in game 1, but I don't really care to increase my possibility of naturally drawing it.

[Mannaus]

Prelate is relevant in nearly every matchup. I've been running 3 main since it was released. Yes, it can be Recruited for, but I'm not going to run additional 1/1's just so I can run less 2/2's. I'd rather draw a Prelate than a Recruiter most of the time.

3 Prelates main alongside a Mangara. You my friend seem to run a most interesting build. Would you mind sharing your list? I'm interested to see how you combine hatebears/beaters density, and what your flex slots are. I'm a long-time defender of Prelate; I could not compromise not running 2 in the 75, but I've never seen/heard of 3 main.
You run your deck in a combo-heavy meta?

[DarthVicious]

3 Prelates main alongside a Mangara. You my friend seem to run a most interesting build. Would you mind sharing your list? I'm interested to see how you combine hatebears/beaters density, and what your flex slots are. I'm a long-time defender of Prelate; I could not compromise not running 2 in the 75, but I've never seen/heard of 3 main.
You run your deck in a combo-heavy meta?

Certainly, sir.


4 Flickerwisp
4 Stalking Leonin
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Sanctum Prelate
3 Serra Avenger
2 Benalish Marshal
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Shalai, Voice of Plenty
1 Mangara of Corondor

4 Aether Vial
2 Honor of the Pure
2 Umezawa's Jitte

12 Plains
4 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland


3 Mother of Runes
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Remorseful Cleric
2 Spirit of the Labyrinth
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Cloudchaser Kestrel


I'm considering one or two Brightling, and possibly some number of Relic-Warders, but beyond that I'm very happy with it. Recruiters can fetch Wisp, Thalia, Prelate, Crusader, Mangara, and anything off the sideboard save Gideon. More often than not, they either go for Mangara or Wisp, but sometimes Prelate is very necessary. People still fear Mangara lock like it's The Plague, and I'll be more than happy to exile their weak and unstable manabase from behind a wall of Leonins.

Most of you, I imagine, are going to bemoan the lack of spot removal, maximum Karakas, and probably even the lack of Stoneforge. Mom off the board is a little weird too, I'll admit.

The only utility land I'd consider is Horizon Canopy, the green for Shalai's activation and the card draw seem very good. I don't think Caverns are as necessary as they once were. Having extra Karakas is rarely a liability, and getting them on the table usually results in audible groans from Reanimator/Sneak Show/Depths. I don't miss Stoneforge at all, honestly, it was at its best vs something like Merfolk that couldn't beat it nor deal with it. With the impending resurgence of Thresh as 'The Delver Deck' just one of the global pump effects will be nice, turning my army of 3/3 into a force of 4/4, rendering Mongeese and True-Names mostly irrelevant on the defense. Even an opposing Jitte gets mitigated by running larger dudes. Displacer can take over the board by reusing Wisp and Leonin, generate card advantage with Recruiter, protecting Shalai from removal, tapping down potential blockers, and performs the Karakas role with Mangara. Kestrel I originally included when everyone splashing black had 2 Dread of Night in their board and it turned out to also be good against a host of other decks, notably Lands, Burn, and Sneak Show. The rest of the cards I think have either obvious applications or have been discussed multiple times already.

[redtwister]

"I don't think Maverick is better. It is now actively worse than DnT without DRS (I think it was already worse, but this is another hit.)"

Maverick was tier 1 before DRS. Knight, Thalia, Wasteland, Ramunap Excavator all get better, and one of it's great matchups (RUG Delver) seems like it's going to be popular for a while.

I'm not sure that saying Maverick was Tier 1 6 years ago means very much.

Also, I don't think DRS hurt them that much if they played 3-4 themselves. It is unlikely that by itself is what demoted Maverick, but maybe someone has convincing proof that it was DRS that did it in.

Sure, they have gained Ramunap Excavator and Tireless Tracker, but that seems to be about it, unless I am missing something huge? They did try Leovold in recent iterations, but that's not gonna happen now and being more than 3 colors is going to get much harder as they will rely on Noble Hierarch and maybe the 1-of BoP. So they go to 4/1 or 4/2 Noble/BoP, which is a loss of quite a bit of power, but without any really new cards.

Reanimator, Lands, and Dredge are going to have a target on their heads, which means RiP/RoP increase, which is bad for Maverick and I don't imagine those decks are easy for Maverick. Since they don't run RiP like we do, I think they won't get the advantage we get against those decks.

Relative to DnT, I think we get comparatively stronger than they do while also getting the RUG Delver free roll. Therefore, relative to us, I think Maverick gets worse.

Now, 3 months out, who can say? 5-6 years of DRS actively played in many decks (unlike Top, which was key in effectively one deck) means this is going to create a big shockwave that won't sort itself out even without new cards for several months, over a lot of gameplay.

[Umezete]

I'm not sure that saying Maverick was Tier 1 6 years ago means very much.

Also, I don't think DRS hurt them that much if they played 3-4 themselves. It is unlikely that by itself is what demoted Maverick, but maybe someone has convincing proof that it was DRS that did it in.

Sure, they have gained Ramunap Excavator and Tireless Tracker, but that seems to be about it, unless I am missing something huge? They did try Leovold in recent iterations, but that's not gonna happen now and being more than 3 colors is going to get much harder as they will rely on Noble Hierarch and maybe the 1-of BoP. So they go to 4/1 or 4/2 Noble/BoP, which is a loss of quite a bit of power, but without any really new cards.

Reanimator, Lands, and Dredge are going to have a target on their heads, which means RiP/RoP increase, which is bad for Maverick and I don't imagine those decks are easy for Maverick. Since they don't run RiP like we do, I think they won't get the advantage we get against those decks.

Relative to DnT, I think we get comparatively stronger than they do while also getting the RUG Delver free roll. Therefore, relative to us, I think Maverick gets worse.

Now, 3 months out, who can say? 5-6 years of DRS actively played in many decks (unlike Top, which was key in effectively one deck) means this is going to create a big shockwave that won't sort itself out even without new cards for several months, over a lot of gameplay.


Miracles was ultimately what killed maverick but one of the reason it has trouble even with miracles being weaker is that deathrite piles had a similar midrangey gameplan but just worked better.

Not that I necessarily think maverick is in a better spot now. I remain unconvinced as long as TNN exists since it can stonewall a fast start.

[Lord Darkview]

Certainly, sir.


4 Flickerwisp
4 Stalking Leonin
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Sanctum Prelate
3 Serra Avenger
2 Benalish Marshal
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Shalai, Voice of Plenty
1 Mangara of Corondor

4 Aether Vial
2 Honor of the Pure
2 Umezawa's Jitte

12 Plains
4 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland


3 Mother of Runes
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Remorseful Cleric
2 Spirit of the Labyrinth
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Cloudchaser Kestrel


I'm considering one or two Brightling, and possibly some number of Relic-Warders, but beyond that I'm very happy with it. Recruiters can fetch Wisp, Thalia, Prelate, Crusader, Mangara, and anything off the sideboard save Gideon. More often than not, they either go for Mangara or Wisp, but sometimes Prelate is very necessary. People still fear Mangara lock like it's The Plague, and I'll be more than happy to exile their weak and unstable manabase from behind a wall of Leonins.

Most of you, I imagine, are going to bemoan the lack of spot removal, maximum Karakas, and probably even the lack of Stoneforge. Mom off the board is a little weird too, I'll admit.

The only utility land I'd consider is Horizon Canopy, the green for Shalai's activation and the card draw seem very good. I don't think Caverns are as necessary as they once were. Having extra Karakas is rarely a liability, and getting them on the table usually results in audible groans from Reanimator/Sneak Show/Depths. I don't miss Stoneforge at all, honestly, it was at its best vs something like Merfolk that couldn't beat it nor deal with it. With the impending resurgence of Thresh as 'The Delver Deck' just one of the global pump effects will be nice, turning my army of 3/3 into a force of 4/4, rendering Mongeese and True-Names mostly irrelevant on the defense. Even an opposing Jitte gets mitigated by running larger dudes. Displacer can take over the board by reusing Wisp and Leonin, generate card advantage with Recruiter, protecting Shalai from removal, tapping down potential blockers, and performs the Karakas role with Mangara. Kestrel I originally included when everyone splashing black had 2 Dread of Night in their board and it turned out to also be good against a host of other decks, notably Lands, Burn, and Sneak Show. The rest of the cards I think have either obvious applications or have been discussed multiple times already.

I think that is an interesting list, but yeah, that deck bears very little resemblance to anything I'd associate with DnT. It definitely boasts some interesting disruptive elements, but seems pretty all-in on blink tricks. That's a bit too specialized for me, and I don't think I'd be willing to surrender the versatile suite offered by more typical builds for it.


I'm not sure that saying Maverick was Tier 1 6 years ago means very much.

Also, I don't think DRS hurt them that much if they played 3-4 themselves. It is unlikely that by itself is what demoted Maverick, but maybe someone has convincing proof that it was DRS that did it in.

Sure, they have gained Ramunap Excavator and Tireless Tracker, but that seems to be about it, unless I am missing something huge? They did try Leovold in recent iterations, but that's not gonna happen now and being more than 3 colors is going to get much harder as they will rely on Noble Hierarch and maybe the 1-of BoP. So they go to 4/1 or 4/2 Noble/BoP, which is a loss of quite a bit of power, but without any really new cards.

Reanimator, Lands, and Dredge are going to have a target on their heads, which means RiP/RoP increase, which is bad for Maverick and I don't imagine those decks are easy for Maverick. Since they don't run RiP like we do, I think they won't get the advantage we get against those decks.

Relative to DnT, I think we get comparatively stronger than they do while also getting the RUG Delver free roll. Therefore, relative to us, I think Maverick gets worse.

Now, 3 months out, who can say? 5-6 years of DRS actively played in many decks (unlike Top, which was key in effectively one deck) means this is going to create a big shockwave that won't sort itself out even without new cards for several months, over a lot of gameplay.


Miracles was ultimately what killed maverick but one of the reason it has trouble even with miracles being weaker is that deathrite piles had a similar midrangey gameplan but just worked better.

Not that I necessarily think maverick is in a better spot now. I remain unconvinced as long as TNN exists since it can stonewall a fast start.

I don't think TNN matters all that much to a deck that can readily drop 3-mana 8/8s. DnT has unquestionably gotten better, and may have gotten better relative to Maverick. What will determine Maverick's success is the proportion of the metagame that is unfair/combo or some sort of heavy-control, like Miracles. If those numbers are high, Maverick may struggle. If they're low, they might even outperform DnT.

[Finn]

Have we had a proper discussion about Stalking Leonin? It looks like a powerful card in a control deck with Flickerwisps. I can see savvy opponents try to get weasally with the mechanic though.

[colo]

A "proper" discussion: I don't think so, but the card is obviously strong, and has been mentioned a few times. I think Stalking Leonin would really be able to shine in a "Big D&T"-style list with Restoration Angel to top the curve. DRS being gone implies that more decks will have to win via combat, too, so its ability has become stronger due to the B&R update. Now if only it could handle True-Name Nemesis :/

[Tyres]

Brightling buy-out in Europe just happening, interesting... :eyebrow:

[Sigi85]

Just in time to buy 2 of them with 8€!!
Does anyone have try Karn Scion of Urza? I’m testing it in my sideboard, and every abilities is value for the deck.
The token could became huge with our artifacts and the card advantage engine is what we miss in control matchup.

[colo]

So I did not really feel confident enough to test these new post-ban waters with my present "primary" deck (UR Noughty Painter (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20590-Deck-Painter-Stone&p=1045276&viewfull=1#post1045276)), but resorted to ye olde D&T for tonight's Legacy FNM. It turned outa decent choice; I finished 4-0, beating UR Delver (2-0), Mono Red Storm (2-0), Durch Staxx (2-1), and Grixis Superfriends/Walker Control (really more like UB with very little R; 2-1).

My usual, unadapted 61 that I piloted today:


3 Flickerwisp
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Stonecloaker
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Knight of the Holy Nimbus
1 Epochrasite
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Sanctum Prelate

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares

3 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
3 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
9 Plains


And I brought this yet unoptimized sideboard (I'm quite sure there is a need for more inevitable and faster graveyard interaction to compete on a larger scale):


1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Stillmoon Cavalier
2 Sanctum Prelate

1 Crackdown
1 Path to Exile
2 Cataclysm
3 Council's Judgement
3 Rest in Peace


MVP in terms of creatures of the day was Sanctum Prelate, shutting down opponents' engines like a champ. Having up to 3 copies post-board is a potent cure to the cantrip disease that the format has become. I was also VERY happy with Epochrasite - I only lived the dream to vial it in once (to gobble up a 3/4 Monastery Swiftspear), but its constant, hasty return after three counters have had time to evaporate is just awesome. Other noteworthy things: Stillmoon Cavalier is nuts against suitable opponents, and I can highly recommend pairing it with Sword of Fire and Ice :D Also, you should really check out Knight of the Holy Nimbus. This little guy seems so insignificant, but Flanking and its regeneration shield-induced resilience are really uniquely useful abilities against deck that do run True-Name Nemesis, but skip White for removal.

Craziest situation/game of the day was G2 versus Mono R Storm. Me on the draw, drawing 2 Vial, Cavern of Souls, Plains, Swords to Plowshares (I left in a two copies because I was afraid of my opponent turning to a Goblin Rabblemaster-esque plan), Wasteland, and Orzhov Pontiff, which I decided to keep, expecting the usual Empty the Warrens "fun". My opponent went off turn 1, creating 14 Tokens on the back of the R suite of mana acceleration spells and a Helm of Awakening, then passing. I play Plains, cast two Vials for free, pass the turn. He is hellbent, draws a card, attacks for 14, and drops his topdecked Mountain. I draw Revoker, play Cavern, cast Orzhov Pontiff for WB, clearing his board. In the end, a Jitte-equipped Revoker brought it home :)

I did see a pair of Brightlings in action on other tables, and I'll try to run two myself. Very strong card, even on its own.

[Umezete]

Just in time to buy 2 of them with 8€!!
Does anyone have try Karn Scion of Urza? I’m testing it in my sideboard, and every abilities is value for the deck.
The token could became huge with our artifacts and the card advantage engine is what we miss in control matchup.


I adore karn but we have like 9-10 artifacts so color me skeptic of playing it here. Gideon is prob better.

[JitteJitte]

Hello Everyone!
Rejoice, the end of DRS & Git Probe. It feels nice.
Kudos to DarthVicious for piloting a unique list.
Stalking Leonin had flown completely under my radar.
Just picked up a couple.
I've been playing Karn in the board for a few weeks, and I think the construct might be the best ability, but randomly drawing more Plains will be good next to Brightling.

For the 24th land, I've been thinking that flooded strand makes a lot of sense. Has anyone else considered running a fetch?

[colo]

A miser fetchland? What for? I'd rather have a singleton Flagstones of Trokair. Less vulnerable to Stifle, equally bad under Blood Moon effects, marginally worse against Wasteland, but awesome in case you board in Cataclysm.

[RobNC]

Brightling buy-out in Europe just happening, interesting... :eyebrow:

Happened in US yesterday as well. $6 in the morning, $16-$20 in the evening. I'm sure it'll settle down around $10 or $12...or at least I hope.

She's good, although I don't know if I want more than two. Finally had a chance to play her last night and she stonewalled a TNN. Opponent got in one attack, I swung back with lifelink. Next 10+ turns the opponent refused to attack :laugh:

[Tyres]

What is up with "all" the 61 Cards Maindeck lists? Can someone argue positive for the 61th card? I just dont see why, am I missing something?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

The partial percentage point against slot 61 isn't enough for me to want to drop the 26th creature for the 24th land, therefore I play the 61st slot.

[Adan]

Just in time to buy 2 of them with 8€!!
Does anyone have try Karn Scion of Urza? I’m testing it in my sideboard, and every abilities is value for the deck.
The token could became huge with our artifacts and the card advantage engine is what we miss in control matchup.

The question is, what makes him better than Gideon? Gideon also doubles as a protection spell against Sulfur Elemental and Dread of Night, cards that should soon be seen in sideboards.

On a sidenote, I played 2 leagues since the bannings and 5-0'd both of them on MTGO. I'm on a very old list though, I have yet to try Brightling (it's still not really available on MTGO).
Deck feels like gas again finally.

[Finn]

Brightling is a bit like DRS, actually in that it just has a lot of different pertinent abilities on an aggressively priced body, chief among them is how hard it is to kill even with sweepers.

Also, what are you all siding in for Miracles now? That deck is bound to see some increased action now.

[Adan]

Brightling is a bit like DRS, actually in that it just has a lot of different pertinent abilities on an aggressively priced body, chief among them is how hard it is to kill even with sweepers.

Also, what are you all siding in for Miracles now? That deck is bound to see some increased action now.

Brightling seems like an option if you don't want to play Mirran Crusader or Brimaz. I think Brightling is comparable to Brimaz in that it is very capable of racing True Name Nemesis and bounces back against removal and sweepers (you'll need Karakas with Brimaz, though).

What I'd like about Brightling so far is that it also does a great job against Red Prison/Dragon Stompy. One Ensnaring Bridge is usually beatable, but multiples are super annoying. And chances are that you are flooded with Plains and Mountains in that matchup anyway and can sink in some mana to attack though Ensnaring Bridge. It also doesn't drop dead against Fiery Confluence or Kozilek's Return.

I can imagine playing Brightling over Mirran Crusader given how often I side him out at the moment. I have the impression that the metagame will now shift towards red again and Lightning Bolt will see more play than Fatal Push again.

On a sidenote, I got published, so here's the list for the curious people: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1183681#paper

[Tyres]

Brightling is a bit like DRS, actually in that it just has a lot of different pertinent abilities on an aggressively priced body, chief among them is how hard it is to kill even with sweepers.

Also, what are you all siding in for Miracles now? That deck is bound to see some increased action now.

I Like to get in my additional piece of equipment (SoWaP most likely), 2 Council's Judgement, 2 Cataclysm or Gideon and even 2 Eterswon Canonist.

Im not a Fan of Mother of Runes in this MU, especially after game 1 so I board all 4 of them out. Im always keeping at least 2 Swords even if I didnt saw Mentor, if my oppo already played Mentor G1 I tend to even keep 3 Swords. Depending on my Maindeck I tend to board out some generic beaters like Crusader.

My guess is that Miracles will lean towards 3 Counterbalance in the Maindeck which should be good for DnT players. We will see how this MU is going to evolve, but this is one of the more special one I guess.

[colo]

What? Mother of Runes and not overcommitting threats onto the battlefield are pretty much the key in winning the Miracles matchup. At least they were when Top was still legal. I'm fairly certain you're doing it wrong if you board her out.

[ParisFlorian]

What? Mother of Runes and not overcommitting threats onto the battlefield are pretty much the key in winning the Miracles matchup. At least they were when Top was still legal. I'm fairly certain you're doing it wrong if you board her out.

True. Overcommitting threats is only an option with Prelate on 6 and a Mom to protect it.

[mdu2boy]

In-regards to sideboard. Full disclosure- I hate graveyard recursion. As much as Phil G hates Merfolk.

I currently have 3 RiP in my SB, but with Remorseful Cleric being a thing now... I am considering running 2 maindeck, and cutting 1 RiP in the SB. The trimming would allow for a Prelate to come back in to the fold for me.


Has anyone considered this sort of SB changes due to the Cleric?

[Tyres]

Mom is not as Important as it seems in this MU. Miracles is mostly playing "only" 4 swords and some number of Snappy as singletarget removal. The "problem" with Mom in this MU is that your automatically playing into their sweepers (Terminus, Verdict and sometimes even EE). I see this MU as playing a threat and Miracles has to handle it. Mom itself is not a threat at all against Miracles and just a 2 for 1 Terminus can be back breaking for the DnT pilot. Its not so super important to develop a super fast clock or board against Miracles as it is in other MU's. A turn 3 Thalia with Karakas backup is often fine, not impressive, but fine! With the inclusion of Brightling we even got more threats which are hard to handle and we are getting even better in the late game. It's all about the value grind and Mom is not getting you much of it imo. Maybe it's ok to have like 2 Mom's after game 1 but im sure that even a Canonist on turn 2 is better then a turn 1 unanswered Mom. All of our "big" threats out of the board like Gideon/Cataclysm/more Equipment are better then Mom too. Im realy not missing her in this MU.

[iatee]

I will often side out a Mom, because she's pretty bad in multiples, but sometimes you just have to put one out there as Terminus bait. You're either gonna get two-for-one'd with Terminus, or two-for-one'd with Snapcaster, so we're basically picking our poison here. Also - if you always play the one creature at a time game and don't have a Vial, you'll lose to a resolved Jace on the spot - that's one of the biggest advantages of having a Mom hanging around. I'd rather get blown out by Terminus and have to rebuild than have to fight my way out of an active Jace.

The other relevant factor is how much do you have to bring in vs take out with the deck you're playing - vs a non-Mentor Miracles deck you're gonna have lots of free space because you can drop all your STPs and Jitte, most people aren't gonna have more than 5 relevant cards to bring in anyway and Mom is probably better than your 6th sideboard card. If space is tighter (e.g. you saw two Mentors game one and absolutely need to keep a lot of STPs) then she's a good fringe cut. Also if you're playing more than one Prelate, she's better than if you're not.

[DarthVicious]

True. Overcommitting threats is only an option with Prelate on 6 and a Mom to protect it.

This is where I set my Prelates, but don't forget about Supreme Verdict. Not all of them run it though.


Have we had a proper discussion about Stalking Leonin? It looks like a powerful card in a control deck with Flickerwisps. I can see savvy opponents try to get weasally with the mechanic though.

I tried finding a good Pauly Shore video clip... then realized the irony.


A "proper" discussion: I don't think so, but the card is obviously strong, and has been mentioned a few times. I think Stalking Leonin would really be able to shine in a "Big D&T"-style list with Restoration Angel to top the curve. DRS being gone implies that more decks will have to win via combat, too, so its ability has become stronger due to the B&R update. Now if only it could handle True-Name Nemesis :/

My plan is flying over it, unless I get one of the anthems, then I can send in fearless 4/4s.

[HammerAndSickled]

3 DnT lists in the top 32 of the MTGO challenge. Only new cars is a Remorseful Cleric, not a single Brightling to be seen. Card will probably turn out to be a flash in the pan. Notably, everyone was still on 2 Revokers and they lost to SneakShow in the semis, which was formerly an excellent matchup.

[EronRelentless]

Hey guys.
Yesterday I played a small 14 Player tournament with this sweet List and went 4-0:

//Lands
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Karakas
11 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

//Spells
4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte

//Creatures
3 Flickerwisp
4 Judge's Familiar
1 Mirran Crusader
4 Mother of Runes
1 Palace Jailer
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Sanctum Prelate
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

//Sideboard
SB: 2 Path to Exile
SB: 2 Containment Priest
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Leonin Relic-Warder
SB: 2 Council's Judgment
SB: 2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction

For the first tournaments I wanted to be prepared to beat the generic Combo Decks like Storm, Sneak & Show and Reanimator so I chose to play 4 Judge's Familiar, which was surprisingly good in the Mirror Match as well as it's a cheap Creature which flies and nicely carrying a Jitte.
My Matchup were UW Stoneblade (2-1), Czech Pile (2-0), Infect (2-1) and the Mirror (2-0) in the finals. If you would like to see me playing, you can watch the Game 3 and 4 (the first one is in german Language and the latter one in english because of my opponent) here:

Game 3: https://youtu.be/iWajCdtGZgk
Game 4: https://youtu.be/d7MC7_O3cBM

[Driemer84]

3 DnT lists in the top 32 of the MTGO challenge. Only new cars is a Remorseful Cleric, not a single Brightling to be seen. Card will probably turn out to be a flash in the pan. Notably, everyone was still on 2 Revokers and they lost to SneakShow in the semis, which was formerly an excellent matchup.

I think you aren't seeing Brightling on MTGO because they have been really hard to find. I don't have a source, but I heard they were only being opened in chests and possibly at a lower rate than intended. It's way too soon to be calling the card a flash in the pan. The card isn't seeing proper circulation and the DRS ban is barely a week old.

Against Sneak and Show, I think Omniscience is the card that is beating us, not that lack of Revoker on Sneak Attack. None of the lists were running any type of enchantment hate out of the board.

[Ayiluss]

The winning list didn't play any copies of Omniscience in their 75 though.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Can confirm SnS is still a good matchup.

[Driemer84]

The winning list didn't play any copies of Omniscience in their 75 though.

You're right, I was looking at the second place list. It's possible the Sneak and Show player just had good beats because we do lose our good match ups sometimes, but maybe upping Revoker is correct if Sneak and Show is gaining in popularity.

[Ayiluss]

You're right, I was looking at the second place list. It's possible the Sneak and Show player just had good beats because we do lose our good match ups sometimes, but maybe upping Revoker is correct if Sneak and Show is gaining in popularity.
I agree that adding more Revokers is correct if Sneak and Show is going to see more play but I'm not an expert.

[Medea_]

In-regards to sideboard. Full disclosure- I hate graveyard recursion. As much as Phil G hates Merfolk.

I currently have 3 RiP in my SB, but with Remorseful Cleric being a thing now... I am considering running 2 maindeck, and cutting 1 RiP in the SB. The trimming would allow for a Prelate to come back in to the fold for me.


Has anyone considered this sort of SB changes due to the Cleric?

It's still a little rough around the edges, but I'm thinking about something like this:

Sideboard
2 Rest in Peace
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Path to Exile
2 Council’s Judgment
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Brightling
1 Sword of War and Peace


3 DnT lists in the top 32 of the MTGO challenge. Only new cars is a Remorseful Cleric, not a single Brightling to be seen. Card will probably turn out to be a flash in the pan. Notably, everyone was still on 2 Revokers and they lost to SneakShow in the semis, which was formerly an excellent matchup.

Brightling was basically impossible to find at the time of the Challenge. That's the reason why it's not there. Brightling is insane and is taking over games left and right.


Can confirm SnS is still a good matchup.

Sneak and Show is pretty unfavorable now. I've got lots of data to back that one up.

[zhandro]

It's still a little rough around the edges, but I'm thinking about something like this:

Sideboard
2 Rest in Peace
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Path to Exile
2 Council’s Judgment
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Brightling
1 Sword of War and Peace



Brightling was basically impossible to find at the time of the Challenge. That's the reason why it's not there. Brightling is insane and is taking over games left and right.



Sneak and Show is pretty unfavorable now. I've got lots of data to back that one up.


What has changed to make Sneak and Show an unfavorable matchup? Their decklist seems to be the same. Is it due to the changes in ours?

[Moctzal]

What has changed to make Sneak and Show an unfavorable matchup? Their decklist seems to be the same. Is it due to the changes in ours?

They've almost universally adopted Omniscience in the maindeck.

[Moctzal]

3 DnT lists in the top 32 of the MTGO challenge. Only new cars is a Remorseful Cleric, not a single Brightling to be seen. Card will probably turn out to be a flash in the pan. Notably, everyone was still on 2 Revokers and they lost to SneakShow in the semis, which was formerly an excellent matchup.

They didn't have Brightling because it's been all but unavailable due to lack of supply, and haven't playtested it in paper enough to buy in. Card is absolutely a D&T staple going forward.

Sneak and Show has turned turned into a very bad matchup, due to Omniscience largely being present in S&S builds, and D&T having no real answer for it maindeck or sideboard. Cards like Flickerwisp, Canonist, and Leonin Relic-Warder can slow it down, but the guessing game it creates in addition to S&S' other options have made the matchup quite bad on D&T's side. It helps them get around things like Containment Priest and Karakas too.

[Lord Darkview]

Also, what are you all siding in for Miracles now? That deck is bound to see some increased action now.

It depends on my board configuration. In no particular order: Cataclysm, Gideon AoZ, Elspeth KE, Council's Judgment, Sanctum Prelate, Brightling, Leonin Relic-Warder, Pithing Needle, Sword of War and Peace, Recruiter of the Guard will all come in if available, and sometimes Surgical Extraction or Ethersworn Canonist (though less lately).

To make room, I cut Mother of Runes first, next a few copies of StP, and finally an inefficient beater, Jitte, or Batterskull.


In-regards to sideboard. Full disclosure- I hate graveyard recursion. As much as Phil G hates Merfolk.

I currently have 3 RiP in my SB, but with Remorseful Cleric being a thing now... I am considering running 2 maindeck, and cutting 1 RiP in the SB. The trimming would allow for a Prelate to come back in to the fold for me.


Has anyone considered this sort of SB changes due to the Cleric?

Before the change, I ran 3 RiP and 1 Containment Priest in my SB. Because everyone expects an uptick in graveyard-based decks, I have 2 MB Cleric, plus 2 SB RiP and 2 SB Surgical Extraction. If I discover there are not enough graveyard-based decks to justify all that SB hate, I will cut Extractions first.


What has changed to make Sneak and Show an unfavorable matchup? Their decklist seems to be the same. Is it due to the changes in ours?

What changed was the addition of Omniscience on their side, which is far harder to beat. Before, a resolved Show and Tell was often beatable by Karakas, Palace Jailer, or the like; while a resolved Sneak Attack was beatable with Revoker. But a Show and Tell that brings in Omniscience can almost always win regardless of your board state. You get one chance to guess and bring in the right card, and even that's no guarantee (eg: they can kill you with an LRW trigger on the stack). This also reduced the utility of cards like Revoker and Containment Priest, which were not reliable enough, and were being reduced in number since they didn't shine elsewhere. In other words: the main damage was Omniscience, but giving up fighting the matchup made it slightly worse than it was before.

The upshot is that you have to prevent Show and Tell from resolving at all instead of beating the revealed card, and that is hard to do.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

It's still a little rough around the edges, but I'm thinking about something like this:

Sideboard
2 Rest in Peace
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Path to Exile
2 Council’s Judgment
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Brightling
1 Sword of War and Peace



Brightling was basically impossible to find at the time of the Challenge. That's the reason why it's not there. Brightling is insane and is taking over games left and right.



Sneak and Show is pretty unfavorable now. I've got lots of data to back that one up.Really? Maybe it's who I play against. I've not had issues. Did other lists change? Is the data posted on your website somewhere? Did the list change and I miss it?

Edit: Saw Moctzal's post. Omniscience. Just checked out mtgtop8, some lists even play 3 and intuition. Crazy.

[Marungo]

I disagree with literally everything said here. SNS isn’t that bad. Literally got done a 30 game play test session vs Omni sneak and went roughly 50/50. Also brightling “a staple” is just wrong. Flat out. No creature that can only attack and block should ever be a staple in our deck. You wanna say the card is a good hoser vs fair decks? Cool. Great tech vs miracles? Sure. A staple that all list shall adapt? No. You can’t even tutor for the card.

[HammerAndSickled]

Brightling was basically impossible to find at the time of the Challenge. That's the reason why it's not there. Brightling is insane and is taking over games left and right.
I know it's kinda your thing to hype cards to create content, but let's be realistic here. The card was made available last week and the online price started out around $6 from what I can see before being bought out repeatedly. That means plenty of people have copies from that initial weekend and given how the card is basically ONLY appealing to DnT, I expect most of them found their way into the wild before the spikes drove the card over $30. I personally know people who bought the card online to try it last week.

Second, "insane" is a stretch. Could the card be good? Sure. Is it a strong contender for the "beater" slot, sure. Is it better than Crusader? Maybe. But at the end of the day it's just a dorky card that attacks and blocks. Especially in a field that looks to be heavier on combo then ever, 3 drops that do nothing to disrupt the opponent and only provide a clock can't be considered "insane." This deck would not exist if all the cards were Brightlings. The deck thrives on disruptive elements that also beat down, and if all you're looking for is beatdowns there's plenty of roughly equivalent options. I'll even go so far as to say that Remorseful Cleric will have more of an impact long-term than this card just because it DOES something in the matchups that aren't all "herp derp attack with my dudes."

But hey, all I can say is at the shop I'll be happy to sell people Brightlings for $17 apiece until they tank.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I do remember a time where DnT was nigh unplayable on mtgo because Ports were insanely difficult to come by for a few reasons.

[bakofried]

I know it's kinda your thing to hype cards to create content, but let's be realistic here. The card was made available last week and the online price started out around $6 from what I can see before being bought out repeatedly. That means plenty of people have copies from that initial weekend and given how the card is basically ONLY appealing to DnT, I expect most of them found their way into the wild before the spikes drove the card over $30. I personally know people who bought the card online to try it last week.

Second, "insane" is a stretch. Could the card be good? Sure. Is it a strong contender for the "beater" slot, sure. Is it better than Crusader? Maybe. But at the end of the day it's just a dorky card that attacks and blocks. Especially in a field that looks to be heavier on combo then ever, 3 drops that do nothing to disrupt the opponent and only provide a clock can't be considered "insane." This deck would not exist if all the cards were Brightlings. The deck thrives on disruptive elements that also beat down, and if all you're looking for is beatdowns there's plenty of roughly equivalent options. I'll even go so far as to say that Remorseful Cleric will have more of an impact long-term than this card just because it DOES something in the matchups that aren't all "herp derp attack with my dudes."

But hey, all I can say is at the shop I'll be happy to sell people Brightlings for $17 apiece until they tank.

It seems like you're missing a bit of context, so allow me to help:

1.) It's being run as a 2-of by those who have them. No one has suggested more than 3 in the 75, and even then, only as a hedge against discard.
2.) The slots Brightling is taking up were formerly occupied by the flex slot beaters, such as Serra Avenger and Mirran Crusader. No one is cutting disruptive elements to play this card as far as I can tell, and most aren't even suggesting the wholesale removal of Crusader.

Everyone else in the thread understands those two points, and has been discussing them in that context. You can say that other cards may be better in those slots, but to go on a screed about "herp derp attack" creatures is - to put it kindly - irrelevant.

[Moctzal]

I know it's kinda your thing to hype cards to create content, but let's be realistic here. The card was made available last week and the online price started out around $6 from what I can see before being bought out repeatedly. That means plenty of people have copies from that initial weekend and given how the card is basically ONLY appealing to DnT, I expect most of them found their way into the wild before the spikes drove the card over $30. I personally know people who bought the card online to try it last week.

Second, "insane" is a stretch. Could the card be good? Sure. Is it a strong contender for the "beater" slot, sure. Is it better than Crusader? Maybe. But at the end of the day it's just a dorky card that attacks and blocks. Especially in a field that looks to be heavier on combo then ever, 3 drops that do nothing to disrupt the opponent and only provide a clock can't be considered "insane." This deck would not exist if all the cards were Brightlings. The deck thrives on disruptive elements that also beat down, and if all you're looking for is beatdowns there's plenty of roughly equivalent options. I'll even go so far as to say that Remorseful Cleric will have more of an impact long-term than this card just because it DOES something in the matchups that aren't all "herp derp attack with my dudes."

But hey, all I can say is at the shop I'll be happy to sell people Brightlings for $17 apiece until they tank.

The card was never available online for less than about $24. There was very limited supply initially, and vendors adjusted their buys up rapidly, and the card started showing up in very limited quantities. Paper Brightling was bought out, but online Brightlings didn’t show up for a good bit to start the weekend (possibly due to a rumored chest bug, but I haven’t seen official confirmation of that). See price history here: https://www.goatbots.com/card/brightling

It’s a beater that has lifelink and hates all forms of removal. In other words, it races just about any commonly played fair threat in Legacy, and generates card advantage. A card relevant in both tempo and grind oriented matchups. D&T has never had access to a card like this. If the last challenge is any indication, we aren’t in for a heavy combo field. When decks like 4 Color Loam, D&T, and RUG Delver are the most represented decks, cards like Brightling are great.

[Moctzal]

I disagree with literally everything said here. SNS isn’t that bad. Literally got done a 30 game play test session vs Omni sneak and went roughly 50/50. Also brightling “a staple” is just wrong. Flat out. No creature that can only attack and block should ever be a staple in our deck. You wanna say the card is a good hoser vs fair decks? Cool. Great tech vs miracles? Sure. A staple that all list shall adapt? No. You can’t even tutor for the card.

If you don’t want to buy what other competent pilots say about a matchup, fine, that’s your choice.

Mirran Crusader and Serra Avenger have been D&T staples for years. If you want to claim that they’re not, there’s really no point in anyone having a conversation with you if you can’t accept facts as facts.

Brightling is a very good card that does things that D&T has never had access to.

Miracles and RUG Delver pilots are talking about how they can beat the card out of Death and Taxes. Pilots of some other decks are more concerned about this card than anything else in our deck! A card that’s good against two of what figures to be the most popular decks going forward is something people should be paying attention to.

[colo]

Has anyone of you considered Rule of Law or Eidolon of Rhetoric as SB options versus Sneak & Show? Seems like they could be worthwhile in other matchups as well. Eidolon + Mother of Runes seems nasty.

[Adan]

I played 5-2 in the MTGO Legacy Challenge, I lost to Storm and RUG Delver. Brightling was 45 Tix before the Challenge, so I did not buy it and went with my stock list.

So far I have yet to be beaten by Sneak & Show on MTGO, I played it 4 times now and always won. From what I observed the SneakShow lists cut Omniscience again and thus the classic Revoker-Karakas is usually a hard lock still.
Other cards that help tremendously in this matchup are Palace Jailer and Sanctum Prelate. The postboard games can be tricky, but Mother of Runes and Sanctum Prelate go up in value because Mother protects some pieces from Pyroclasm and Abrade, Sanctum Prelate on 3 shuts down Show and Tell and also Blood Moon so Karakas stays live. If you are losing a lot against Sneak Show I am convinced you just play the matchup wrongly. But I am also still running 3 Revoker, it makes sense that this matchup starts to get shaky when you're only on two.

I think Brightling is overhyped at the moment. Brightling "winning games left and right" is something I haven't seen yet. It will take a while before the sample size is generated on MTGO, because Brightling is still expensive as hell. But so far I fail to see what makes him better than Brimaz in certain matchups. Brimaz is also a potent attacker/blocker that doesn't drop dead to Lightning Bolt and bounces with Karakas. Brightling is similar but doesn't require you to have Karakas to bounce.

The only significant difference I can see with Brightling is that he's probably best against Red Prison. It seems like Ensnaring Bridge is now a real card in Legacy, and Brightling allows you to attack into it if you can sink some mana into him (which you usually can because you'll have a lot of Mountains against Red Prison). But then again you are spending 3 mana to ping your opponent. Seems a bit meh. Plus, he's shut down by Sorcerous Spyglass or Revoker in a pinch.


Has anyone of you considered Rule of Law or Eidolon of Rhetoric as SB options versus Sneak & Show? Seems like they could be worthwhile in other matchups as well. Eidolon + Mother of Runes seems nasty.

Why should you? There's Ethersworn Canonist. And they only make sense when you're facing Omniscience.

[colo]

Of course you shouldn't, but a short malfunction of my brain caused me to forget Ethersworn Canonist's very existence %-)

[Marungo]

If you don’t want to buy what other competent pilots say about a matchup, fine, that’s your choice.

Mirran Crusader and Serra Avenger have been D&T staples for years. If you want to claim that they’re not, there’s really no point in anyone having a conversation with you if you can’t accept facts as facts.

Brightling is a very good card that does things that D&T has never had access to.

Miracles and RUG Delver pilots are talking about how they can beat the card out of Death and Taxes. Pilots of some other decks are more concerned about this card than anything else in our deck! A card that’s good against two of what figures to be the most popular decks going forward is something people should be paying attention to.

1) I will sooner trust my own experiences and thoughts on the matchup as well as the opinions of those around me who I respect above all in terms of magic before any “competent pilot”
2) those cards are obviously not staples. The sheer fact that RW Dnt exists proves they aren’t. Cause that deck doesn’t play those cards... hence not a staple of a dnt strategy. Also you only have to go back to the era of dig through time to see the disappearance of Mirran crusader in favor of wingmare. Something you never do to a staple of a deck. A beater is not a staple in this deck. And acting like it is shows a fundamental lack of understanding as to what this deck is all about.
3) yes. It’s good. It’s an option. So is palace jailer. So is mirran crusader. So is Serra avenger. Don’t assert this card that has had literally a month of time spottily showing up in decklists and being a point of deckbuilding contention in the “community” as this godsend staple. It’s a manasink in a deck that didn’t want one and a card that requires you to cut utility lands. Card is good. I own them. But it has drawbacks.
4) Good fair card is good vs good fair decks. I said in the past if you expect a field of Miracles (which many of you do and I don’t) play brightling. It is great in that matchup and totally worth a slot in the deck. But Crusader is just as good if not outright better against RUG Delver. Blocks Mongoose and goyf. I guess I get hosed by their miser true name but there’s countless other ways to deal with that issue. Also people are also concerned about Revoker more than any other card in our deck! Also BUG players are more concerned about Mirran Crusader than any other card in our deck! There are a lot of cards DNT can play that people are really scared of depending on the deck they are playing. Sanctum Prelate is good from a combo players perspective and some people aren’t even playing that guy for some reason. Point being: we’ve had one event and we don’t even know how the format will really shake out. I look at this event and see a combo mirror in the finals and figure people will realize they have a green light to play their degenerate combo decks again. How we interpret this information may be different. Totally fine. But how we build our decks from here is not clear, and the sheer fact that the “community” is so divided on brightling shows that this idea that it’s a staple and we all are throwing two in our deck is just a false one.

[Gruul]

Brimaz is also a potent attacker/blocker that doesn't drop dead to Lightning Bolt and bounces with Karakas. Brightling is similar but doesn't require you to have Karakas to bounce.
Being a legend is not that good since the opponent can bounce it with their own Karakas. You have full control over Brightling without requiring a specific land (you need a land though). I believe the other key ability on Brightling is Lifelink.

That being said, I don't know whether Brightling is as good as some pretend, but I'll play it over Brimaz everyday. So far it's a good tool in the same range as Crusader and Avenger. I've cut Avengers for Brightling, but I've kept my beloved Crusader.

[Finn]

I agree with you, Marungo. I think there is a degree of miscommunication going on and I thank you for taking this stance. It is necessary. Frankly, it is increasingly difficult for a card to be a "staple" of this deck. That is a very good thing. It means we are getting better cards. Mother of Runes does not fight for its spot, but Mirran Crusader certainly does due to meta changes. They are not of the same inclusion category, and I believe that this is Marungo's point. Frankly, I think Shalai is at least as good as Brightling. But it is harder to include because we have to carve out a spot for it while Brightling simply slides into the aggro slot. I doubt there will be a consensus as to the "best" 60, and again, that is a good thing.

0ne thing I want to dink around with is Militia Bugler. If you pack four of those, they are beefy enough that you can keep a variety of little creatures, so that you can actually fit one or two of more stuff. It would make for a deck that can better handle a highly varied metagame. In that example, many of the cards that are not staples would fit.

We are in the business of studying the metagame as much as pilots of any deck ever has been. We can certainly make edits to our ideas of the best cards versus which opponents. If we keep our minds on the trends and talk about them, we should be able to keep the lurkers in the know. It's a good goal.

I wonder if a new kind of database is in order. It would be one that makes recommendations for which cards to select versus which opponents. Opinions?

[Lord Darkview]

I wonder if a new kind of database is in order. It would be one that makes recommendations for which cards to select versus which opponents. Opinions?
I had previously written out a spreadsheet with the dominant decks, their metagame share, and how each DnT card performed in each matchup on a 0-3 scale, with a weighted average at the end to select the "best" DnT cards in the metagame. I had looked at how to convert it from a personal chart to a community poll, but it was complicated, I got busy, and then we got a bunch of new cards and the entire meta was thrown into the air, so I basically gave it up.

If people think it's relevant, I can restart this project when the meta stabilizes in a few weeks.

As for Brightling, I think it's a staple, but I don't define staple as a "this is automatic in at least X quantity" as much as "this is one of the most common inclusions and can perform well depending on your meta and playstyle." Brightling is no Thalia, but it's not Jotun Grunt either. It deserves serious consideration.

[Medea_]

I agree with you, Marungo. I think there is a degree of miscommunication going on and I thank you for taking this stance. It is necessary. Frankly, it is increasingly difficult for a card to be a "staple" of this deck. That is a very good thing. It means we are getting better cards. Mother of Runes does not fight for its spot, but Mirran Crusader certainly does due to meta changes. They are not of the same inclusion category, and I believe that this is Marungo's point. Frankly, I think Shalai is at least as good as Brightling. But it is harder to include because we have to carve out a spot for it while Brightling simply slides into the aggro slot. I doubt there will be a consensus as to the "best" 60, and again, that is a good thing.

0ne thing I want to dink around with is Militia Bugler. If you pack four of those, they are beefy enough that you can keep a variety of little creatures, so that you can actually fit one or two of more stuff. It would make for a deck that can better handle a highly varied metagame. In that example, many of the cards that are not staples would fit.

We are in the business of studying the metagame as much as pilots of any deck ever has been. We can certainly make edits to our ideas of the best cards versus which opponents. If we keep our minds on the trends and talk about them, we should be able to keep the lurkers in the know. It's a good goal.

I wonder if a new kind of database is in order. It would be one that makes recommendations for which cards to select versus which opponents. Opinions?

I think Militia Burgler would be better suited in Soldier Stompy.

I can see a page like that being useful for Thraben U. I can work on something after Latin Academy is done.

[Lord Darkview]

I can see a page like that being useful for Thraben U. I can work on something after Latin Academy is done.

The following is my scoring sheet that I used prior to the banning. Even though the scores are probably not as helpful now, it may be a useful template for any similar scoring project.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/15DNHhF5jyFIZu-zY92LacH4iFiFW0rTKt9cXk3bIMwg/edit#gid=0

[colo]

I really liked and appreciated that approach of yours, btw - both the methodology, and the execution. Kudos! :)

[Sajomir]

The following is my scoring sheet that I used prior to the banning. Even though the scores are probably not as helpful now, it may be a useful template for any similar scoring project.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/15DNHhF5jyFIZu-zY92LacH4iFiFW0rTKt9cXk3bIMwg/edit#gid=0

Lurker here. Had to register and chime in that this post is awesome. As a new DnT player, just seeing the data spread out helps me think about card choices, even if the data is a little out of date.

[Yeaux]

I was lucky enough to get my Brightlings in paper before the spike, but has anyone had any luck getting them online? They appear to be bought out everywhere.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I was lucky enough to get my Brightlings in paper before the spike, but has anyone had any luck getting them online? They appear to be bought out everywhere.Eh?https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180712/3ca7c9f4f16b4673934c47d0d3562435.jpg

[potentia]

To those of you testing WW D&T against Miracles. How has it been?

I played most Legacy side events at GP São Paulo (main event: Modern) last weekend and found this variety of decks:

Many: D&T; Stoneblade variants (UW, UWr mostly); UR Delver; RUG Delver; Eldrazi.
Some: Dredge; ANT; Lands; Mono Red Prision; Goblins; Miracles; Reanimator; Omnitell.
Few: Maverick; Aggro Loam; Tin Fins; Soldier Stompy; Steel Stompy.

Overall I went 7-3-4. With Medea_'s list for MB (except 2 Serra Avengers instead of 2 Remorseful Clerics) and my SB was slightly different.

Brightling was very good against UR Delver, Stoneblade and Red Prision but I don't think I would up it to more than 2 copies MB.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Is anyone running into more goblins? I'm thinking about a big Thalia (or main in place of second Mirran Crusader) in the board to help against Warchief/Chieftain draws against goblins, and it's splash damage against Sneak Attack, Bizarro Stormy and co.

Btw, I'm playing 2 Remorseful Cleric main. Anyone else using it differently right now?

[rostov]

Ditto. Son's heavily testing online (I'm just procurement) and basically says 4 brightlings won't be his direction no more. 3 flickers MB while mirrans are all fully flex to squeeze a combination of (currently) 2 remourseful clerics, 2 brightlings, 1 shalai in the MB. We're preparing for a local win-a-duel event (I'm a sneak and show player myself). So far he's still unsatisfied: most of the biggest win cons are mana-denial based and not so much these 3 deliberations.

(He's faced only 3 out of 21 blue decks (BUG, Grixis, ANT) in Seattle legacy with a RW build so has this fresh in his memory what the meta looks like without Grixis)

[Lord Darkview]

I think that's right on the money. 2-3 Brightling in the 75 seems to be optimal, and I think it's actually closer to 2. Doubles aren't really handy, unless one actually dies somehow. I'm messing around with other options in the third slot, including going back to a second Crusader, a Brimaz, or a Thalia HC.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

@rostov That's cool, sounds like he's having a good time! I'll never be able to bring myself to value Shalai #1 over Flickerwisp #4 for myself, but it's about what you are comfortable with at the time. If I played Shalai these days, it would definitely be in the sideboard. Now can probably feel like a hard time to play legacy with the meta left quaking from the bans, I think.

I play 2md/1sb Brightling. Feels perfect, sometimes it's important to draw it and that's why I like 3 vs. burn and miracles so far. I'm toying with the idea of putting SoWP in the main and relegating Batterskull to the board. I really want to, but thus far I'm just too chicken. I don't really know how Batterskull will match up against certain archetypes. RUG Delver and goblins, for instance.

[zhandro]

@rostov That's cool, sounds like he's having a good time! I'll never be able to bring myself to value Shalai #1 over Flickerwisp #4 for myself, but it's about what you are comfortable with at the time. If I played Shalai these days, it would definitely be in the sideboard. Now can probably feel like a hard time to play legacy with the meta left quaking from the bans, I think.

I play 2md/1sb Brightling. Feels perfect, sometimes it's important to draw it and that's why I like 3 vs. burn and miracles so far. I'm toying with the idea of putting SoWP in the main and relegating Batterskull to the board. I really want to, but thus far I'm just too chicken. I don't really know how Batterskull will match up against certain archetypes. RUG Delver and goblins, for instance.

Wait, Brightling is good against Burn? That can't be right...I feel like by turn 4 if you don't have a Thalia or something disruptive, you're just dead. I suppose Batterskull can attack no earlier than Brightling... still, I'm just a bit surprised, since I always hear about Brightling's success against miracles and never about Burn. I've been looking to improve my matchup versus Burn, as I feel I've lost to that deck more than I should be.

[Tyres]

Yeah Brightling isnt the allmighty savior against Burn. He's somehow the same as Batterskull and Jitte. If you manage to fetch Skull with SfM on Turn 2 and the SfM survives, then you will win G1. Jitte is even harder to get connected. Brightling is at least 1 turn slower and on the play he often saves you, but if you're on the draw its often "ohh hopefully my opponents bricks for 1-2 turns so I can take over this game".
I myself am not worrying to much about this match up because:

#1 not many good players are playing Burn and if youre playing tight and right you will find youre open windows to overcome the average Burn player.
#2 Its just not that relevant in the meta. If it would be you could easily upgrade this specific match up with a lot of cards (pure lifegain or flexible cards like Blessed Alliance)
#3 It's just one of those match up's you have to fight through and often it's decided by 1-2 draws or 1-2 life.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I was simply expressing what it has helped me with so far in a way that any other creature currently up for consideration in Death and Taxes would not have been able to. The lifelink was critical for it in my opinion during the 3 games we played.

Were there play errors? Was the burn player making perfect decisions, did they understand how to approach the matchup? Was my opponent good at piloting the list?

I don't know, but in my opinion a Brightling won me two games vs. burn. That's all the data I have.

[BigFatJiJi]

1) I will sooner trust my own experiences and thoughts on the matchup as well as the opinions of those around me who I respect above all in terms of magic before any “competent pilot”
2) those cards are obviously not staples. The sheer fact that RW Dnt exists proves they aren’t. Cause that deck doesn’t play those cards... hence not a staple of a dnt strategy. Also you only have to go back to the era of dig through time to see the disappearance of Mirran crusader in favor of wingmare. Something you never do to a staple of a deck. A beater is not a staple in this deck. And acting like it is shows a fundamental lack of understanding as to what this deck is all about.
3) yes. It’s good. It’s an option. So is palace jailer. So is mirran crusader. So is Serra avenger. Don’t assert this card that has had literally a month of time spottily showing up in decklists and being a point of deckbuilding contention in the “community” as this godsend staple. It’s a manasink in a deck that didn’t want one and a card that requires you to cut utility lands. Card is good. I own them. But it has drawbacks.
4) Good fair card is good vs good fair decks. I said in the past if you expect a field of Miracles (which many of you do and I don’t) play brightling. It is great in that matchup and totally worth a slot in the deck. But Crusader is just as good if not outright better against RUG Delver. Blocks Mongoose and goyf. I guess I get hosed by their miser true name but there’s countless other ways to deal with that issue. Also people are also concerned about Revoker more than any other card in our deck! Also BUG players are more concerned about Mirran Crusader than any other card in our deck! There are a lot of cards DNT can play that people are really scared of depending on the deck they are playing. Sanctum Prelate is good from a combo players perspective and some people aren’t even playing that guy for some reason. Point being: we’ve had one event and we don’t even know how the format will really shake out. I look at this event and see a combo mirror in the finals and figure people will realize they have a green light to play their degenerate combo decks again. How we interpret this information may be different. Totally fine. But how we build our decks from here is not clear, and the sheer fact that the “community” is so divided on brightling shows that this idea that it’s a staple and we all are throwing two in our deck is just a false one.

Seems like a lot of confusion about a sideboard option card being called a staple. Barely fits into the deck as it does not contribute to the prison plan as well as being not tutorable, making,it a mana hungry beater that you have no selection for in a deck wanting to use its lands for mana denial. And I agree all the "competent" magic players around me hate the card. Only knuckle draggers at fmn are champions of blightning.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Seems like a lot of confusion about a sideboard option card being called a staple. Barely fits into the deck as it does not contribute to the prison plan as well as being not tutorable, making,it a mana hungry beater that you have no selection for in a deck wanting to use its lands for mana denial. And I agree all the "competent" magic players around me hate the card. Only knuckle draggers at fmn are champions of blightning.Thanks for your opinion. You mono white aggro players crack me up.

[Lord Darkview]

In general, it's a good idea to ignore the comments of someone who makes an account just to lob a baseless insult at a group of people he disagrees with. In fact, just ignore anyone who substitutes pejoratives for both evidence and theory-craft.

Fact: Most people who have tested Brightling have positive things to say about the card.
Fact: Most people who are critical of Brightling seem to have dismissed it without testing it.
Fact: We now have results indicating that competant DnT pilots can do quite well in the current meta. Some builds included Brightling, others did not.

Conclusion: Brightling is a perfectly acceptable beater in the deck, but may not be strictly ideal (let alone necessary) for all environments.

[TokenMaster]

It seems silly to pit Brightling into extremes by declaring it as either hot garbage ir a staple when in reality it's in the beater flex slot of the deck.

I also think trusting solely your personal experiences isn't an ideal way to go about testing a card when 1) You want a large sample size played in a variety of contexts to avoid bias, and 2) other players may very well be taking different lines/making different decisions to make a card work. At cmc 3 Brightling is a card that punishes you heavily for misplaying it or if some things don't come together but being able to vial it in or decide when it's fine to jam it can be heavily rewarding. Time will tell when it's a great choice in the long run but that a large number of players have had success with it lately shouldn't be ignored.

Sent from my SM-G892U using Tapatalk

[jwl3gg]

Seems like a lot of confusion about a sideboard option card being called a staple. Barely fits into the deck as it does not contribute to the prison plan as well as being not tutorable, making,it a mana hungry beater that you have no selection for in a deck wanting to use its lands for mana denial. And I agree all the "competent" magic players around me hate the card. Only knuckle draggers at fmn are champions of blightning.

Yeah, name calling is a great sign of a good argument. 😒

[rostov]

I'm toying with the idea of putting SoWP in the main and relegating Batterskull to the board. I really want to, but thus far I'm just too chicken. I don't really know how Batterskull will match up against certain archetypes. RUG Delver and goblins, for instance.

This was tested with moderate success (55% game win rate) taking out batterskull altogether and putting sowap in the main, against a local meta (2 months worth) that had mirror dnt and burn as well, during the previous win-a-dual 7 weeks ago (well before the ban). However in another LGS he had a better win rate (66% game win rate) -- key match was against another fellow DnT:

Opponent: aether vial in SFM tutors jitte.
son: aether vial in SFM tutors jitte
<later>
Opponent: equips jitte to SFM, attacks
son: taps SFM to bring batterskull (was in hand the whole time), blocks.

3-1 that night. Only loss to ANT with probe (just 2-3 days before ban); build was WW, decklist with 2 revokers 4 mirran's 2 shalai no serras. . Just sometimes there are cute scenarios where old school batterskull comes in nicely; in light of DnT getting more popular it'll stay for now while trying to race burn with 2 brighlings and/or 1 shalai while gambling with 23 lands.


Talking about goblins I was quite on board to get some holy lights, but son's suggesting something more radical: planar collapse. Argument: so what if we lose our creatures: we lose less than goblins for board state. Recently he's taken out cataclysm so I think that's where his planar collapse is going to fit in if the meta turns out to be fast creatures. Second opinion appreciated on this.

[RobNC]

D&T won a local Eternal Weekend Trial yesterday with 15 players.

I was playing Maverick and he beat me down with a Brightling I couldn't answer (especially once he got a SoWaP on it and I drew three STP in a row!). Remorseful Cleric is also great against Maverick.

Semifinals were against a BUG control deck that normally eats D&T for breakfast, but it can't handle Brightling. D&T with Brightling was the BUG deck's only loss in 5 rounds of swiss and lost to it again in the finals. The D&T winner was undefeated the whole day.

Brightling is real. Still don't know if I want more than two but it's freaking great. I personally replaced Avengers with them, but now I'm trying to find space for Clerics too.

[kombatkiwi]

Talking about goblins I was quite on board to get some holy lights, but son's suggesting something more radical: planar collapse. Argument: so what if we lose our creatures: we lose less than goblins for board state. Recently he's taken out cataclysm so I think that's where his planar collapse is going to fit in if the meta turns out to be fast creatures. Second opinion appreciated on this.

Goblins doesn't lose to removal, it loses to moat
1 Mother of Runes is worth more than a Matron and 2 Ringleaders or whatever

In the equipment/vial deck moat = Kor Firewalker

[non-inflammable]

Brightling is real. Still don't know if I want more than two but it's freaking great. I personally replaced Avengers with them, but now I'm trying to find space for Clerics too.

I played two MD brightling last night and went 3-1 losing only to grixis delver as my final opponent.
opponents were in order: eldrazi 12 post, BW vampires, green stompy and grixis delver.
I mostly played the list posted by redtwister on page 490. thanx!

2 Brightling main and 1 foil brightling in my SB was solid but it does become a huge mana sink; optimally, brightling should be vialed in.
1 remorseful cleric main and 6 other graveyard hosers in my SB but I didn't see any real GY strategies (just goyfs and bloodghasts).

Fun play with exact mana: recruiter to SFM, vial in SFM, jitte, cast jitte, equip to mom and attack! (mom was pithing needled) and start machine-gunning the board.
I even got to live the dream against eldrazi 12 post: mangara, aether vial and a karakas by turn three. He had no permanents in play by end.
Bad beats against grixis delver: he eventually gets to three mana and casts his one sulfur elemental.

D&T has lots of answers to the coming meta and I'd bet it's gonna be a DTB for a long time.
Start preparing for the mirror, lol...

[geneyquakes]

Hey everyone, I took 1st place at a seven-round plus t8 tournament at Hareruya today, good for a shiny judge Flusterstorm for first place.

I wrote up a report over on reddit, which you can see here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/8z3aao/tournament_report_1st_flusterstorm_legacy_cup/

Here is a decklist:
https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/15-07-18-IXJ-death-and-taxes/?cb=1531663321

Here is a photo I took of the deck, with the prize smashed in the middle:
https://imgur.com/VNqSZHi

Deck is great, was super fun and felt really good all day. Have some tweaking to do but I like where it is at.

[Umezete]

Went 4/2 at a local win a dual event. My losses were mostly due to horrendous luck one match (literally never drew a land outside my opener in 2 games that lasted 8+ turns) and playing like a complete moron match 1 against a good miracles player because I haven't had much time to play lately and was way rusty.

Brighting did great, but I played against 2 bridge players so that is kinda just stating the obvious. I also played some MD prelates which I was a fan of.

Anyway, games went like this

Round 1 Miracles 0/2

G1 I kept a vial and double mom hand and drew very little relevant cards for this matchup. That said, I was also playing sloppy and forgot vendillion was legendary leading to a blowout with them karakasing to save it from a StoP. I died to a an entreat the angels after finally starting to get kinda back into the game.

G2 Was similiar only I also had to mulligan, I played a bit better and drew less dead cards, but I also failed to draw anything but lands this game and ended up with like 8 or 9 lands by turn 7. Just kinda rolled over and died.


Round 2 Bye

Round 3 Pox 2/0

G1 I knew this would be an interesting match when he turn 1 raven's crime, turn 2 cursed scroll. They dropped a completely useless chains of Mephistopheles as well as some bridged. I dropped a thalia, stoneforge/SOFI (Prob should've grabbed jitte but cursed scroll made me paranoid), and a prelate on 1. Prelate on 1 ends up being really good against his hand and he fails to be able to empty for bridge. Just when things were already looking grim for him a brightling sealed the deal.

G2 I kept a very solid hand with a bunch of dorks including a thalia and revoker (naming scroll). I also get stoneforge and revoker blind call LotV. Opponent's end is a lot of nothing, raven's crime, collective brutality to kill thalia, thought-seized my tutored equipment, and sadly also draws lili shortly after my revoker came down naming it. However, a shrieking affliction and going down to 0 cards on his part almost kills me. A few turns of this actually leave me in danger of dying but a topdecked disenchant goes the distance.

Round 4 Eldrazi 0/2

G1 Keep a 2 lander with a vial. Literally never ever draw another land and end up so glutted on 3 drops I couldn't come back. On his end he got turn 2 Reshaper, turn 3 thought-knot, turn 4 smasher, turn 5 karn and token, turn 6 setting up with vesuvas and cloudposts for turn 7 eye and 2nd smasher. Being so gated on mana with my mono 3 drop hand of recruiters, wisps, and prelates kept me out of the game.

G2 I keep a prob risky hand of vial and one land. I literally never draw a 2nd land, vial almost is enough with the relic warder, revoker, and flickerwisps I got to play but I ended up losing to thought-knot into smasher into karn.

(I feel like this matchup is decently reasonable, just completely fucked on mana)

Round 5 Thopter combo

G1 Had an early thalia for disruption he collective brutatlitied. He chalices for 1 and I prelate at 2 guessing both he was on thopter/sword and saw brutalities. Another prelate at 4 just in case of JTMS or Tez comes down when he gets bridge online. Eventually he dies to brightling being able to swing under bridge.

G2 Kept a hand with double council's judgement and enough land to cast them + Stoneforge. Get down stoneforge and jitte early but he get's down thopter combo. I play brightling, next turn equip and swing. He tries to race brightling with his thopter combo and a million mana and loses that race. I eventually manage to council's judgement a combopiece adn his board is quickly wiped out by jitte counters. In this game brightling did alot of work, gaining me way way too much life (gained me 20 something that game) while being impossible to effectively kill.

Round 6 Grixis delver

G1 he gets the dream on the play draw again't a slowish hand of mine, turn 1 delver, turn 2 ponder, fetch, daze. Turn 3 swiftspear+ cantrip, turn 4 bolt my blocker, turn 5 kill.

G2 I keep a hand of alot of removal but still get a StoP spell pierced. Still, have enough removal for his delver and gurmag. Turn 4 down comes brightling. he tries to diabolic edict it and I bounce brightling and get it next turn. was down to fumes at that point and died really quickly.

G3 He keeps a hand with delver, cantrip, but only one land. I kill delver, drop stoneforge, then wasteland him and get out a jitte and go to town. He misses his landrop and concedes.

My takeaways:

Didn't come up in matches but RB reanimator was popular at the tourney, remorseful cleric is probably a staple.

Bridge is popular in Japan, and so is box. Therefore I fully expect brightling to be a staple for me going forward.

Brightling is very good, not the end all be all, but when she's good she's VERY good. However the card is still a resource hog.

I need to work though my rust and learn how to SB again while I"m at it, haven't played in a legacy event in almost a year.

[rostov]

Not very sample strong for day 2 metagame SCG team trios but reanimator is somehow missing



Legacy

Temur Delver – 5

Death and Taxes – 4

Sneak and Show – 3

Lands – 2

Miracles – 2

Grixis Delver – 2

Storm – 1

Infect – 1

Jeskai Delver – 1

Grixis Control – 1

U/W Stoneblade – 1

Grixis Tezzeret – 1

Sultai Control – 1

Mono-Red Prison – 1

[redtwister]

@rostov
Yeah, not sure what to make of that. I think it will be important to see deck lists. I know the BUG Control was on Leovold 1/1 main/side, but I don't think any other deck can even run it.

Temur-DnT-Sneak-Lands-Miracles is kind of what I would expect as the top decks, but Grixis Delver at 2 is interesting. Noah Walker was playing was 4 Bomat Courier + some more draw and another Forked Bolt build. Seems ok, but not great against us.

Then again, bad Legacy decks can still make it if the Standard and Modern players on your team carry you. I would like to see Team W/L records.

I did see TNN in a lot of decks (Temur and Grixis Delver, BUG Control, Stoneblade, Grixis Control, etc.), which may also change things up a bit.

Legacy Classic might be of more value than the Team event in some ways.

My only question at the moment is 2 Mirran Crusader/1 Remorseful Cleric/1 Prelate main or 1 Mirran Crusader/2 Remorseful Cleric/1 Prelate or 2 Mirran Crusader/2 Remorseful Cleric? Otherwise I feel kind of locked in except for sideboard.

2 Gideon
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Council's Judgment
2 RiP
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Recruiter
1 Relic-Warder
1 Surgical
1 Manriki-Gusari

I do feel good about Manriki-Gusari, but I am not sure if I like it better than Sword of War and Peace, which is also very good against Miracles.

Recruiter and prelate feel good for various matches. Recruiter where finding answers if just important. Prelate #2, if I even want 2, where really shutting down a CMC is critical and two are very strong. For example, with BUG Control, if you had Prelate on 1 and 2, I think they are done short of Liliana or a sweeper (and if you have a Mom out, it is probably 1 and 3 and let Mom manage Abrupt Decay.)

[Medea_]

So about those exhibition matches... https://youtu.be/cG8tpj3IxZM

[Adan]

Is anyone running into more goblins? I'm thinking about a big Thalia (or main in place of second Mirran Crusader) in the board to help against Warchief/Chieftain draws against goblins, and it's splash damage against Sneak Attack, Bizarro Stormy and co.

Btw, I'm playing 2 Remorseful Cleric main. Anyone else using it differently right now?

Goblins is not an issue, I found the matchup to be very good. I played against it at a local FNM last week and felt pretty good about the matchup, once you get the swiss army knife going it's usually smooth sailing. You basically set your Revokers on Gempalm Incinerator in the dark and then usually on Goblin Trashmaster because he deals with your weaponry. In one game however I got completely obliterated an unexpected Goblin Chainwhirler that killed a Thalia, Revoker (making Incinerator live again) and Flickerwisp, so that is definitely a card you should have on your radar.

Remorseful Cleric is a card that I don't understand. It's too slow as graveyard hate and the 2/1 flyer body isn't much of an upside actually. I'm pretty sure we are at a point where toughness-1 critters will become more of a liability in the future as Death & Taxes is - in my humble opinion - the best proactive deck right know and performing fairly well, so we have to mentally prepare for more Sulfur Elementals and Dread of Nights. Ansother reason why Serra Avenger has its place in DnT is that it doesn't drop dead so easily to these cards and is a littlebit more resilient to Punishing Fire. That being said I still want to try Brightling. But I don't see myself spending 50 tix on MODO to do that. I would probably start with 1 Brightling in my sideboard (instead of a 2nd Gideon perhaps) and start from there to get a feeling how the card itself plays out, how clunky it is etc.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Ok. I am slotting either Revoker #3 or Needle #1 into my board. SnS got arcane artisan and it's price is rocketing. Seems as much like the real deal for them that Brightling is here.

[redtwister]

Worcester Legacy Classic

Eldrazi Post 1st
U/W Stoneblade 2nd
Temur Delver 3rd
Goblins 4th
Turbo Depths 5th
Jeskai Stoneblade 6th
B/R Reanimator 7th
Grixis Death's Shadow 8th
Jeskai Delver 9th
Miracles 10th
Death and Taxes 11th
Sneak and Show 12th
Death and Taxes 13th
Infect 14th
Grixis Death's Shadow 15th
U/W Stoneblade 16th

DnT, Temur Delver, Stoneblade, Miracles, Sneak and Show and Reanimator not surprising. Eldrazi Post winning, Goblins and Turbo Depths in Top 5 and Grixis Death's Shadow twice? A little more surprising, especially as Eldrazi Post and Death's Shadow are basically revamped Modern decks, thought "Death's Shadow" might just be one new face of Grixis Delver.

Team events are much harder to judge, but probably no mistake that it looked like it did.

270 players - 14/07/18
1 TES Bryant Cook
2 Canadian Threshold Nathan Robinson
3 Grixis Delver Noah Walker
4 Show and Tell Bob Huang
5 Death & Taxes Rax Dillon
6 Miracles Luke Purcell
7 Show and Tell Nick Costello
8 Canadian Threshold Daniel Jessup
9 Grixis Delver George Magou
10 Grixis Control Paolo Cesari
11 Stoneblade Gerard Fabiano
12 Infect Zachary Koch
13 DnT Theodore Jung
14 Lands Casey Lancaster
15 TNN BUG - Karl Schulz
16 Temur Delver - Jadine Klomparens

Storm is still good enough. No shock there.

Grixis Delver with Bomat Courier in one deck and Strix/Lavamancer split in the other. That makes for 3 fairly distinct ideas of Grixis Delver going forward.

Temur was played enough and did well enough to be probable Tier 1 again.

Show and Tell did better here but Omniscience is back in, and some of the decks are indeed running Arcane Artisan.

Infect might be back.

TNN is definitely back, in ~9 decks out of the Top 32.

By comparison, Gurmag Angler was only in 5 decks, but out of the 6 that would play it, it was a 2-3 of, so it seems likely that UBx Delver, Control and possibly mid-range are going to play it, whereas most fair Uxx decks except Temur seemed to play TNN (and Klomparens ran 1 in her Temur deck.)

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Does anyone else think that containment priest loses a lot of stock if Arcane Artisan becomes a staple in Sneak 'n Show and possibly UB Reanimator?

[Marungo]

Does anyone else think that containment priest loses a lot of stock if Arcane Artisan becomes a staple in Sneak 'n Show and possibly UB Reanimator?

No. Revoker the guy and priest is still great vs the rest of the deck as well as elves and dredge and Dnt. Also RB Reanimator may still be more popular.

[Tylert]

you can also flicker the token.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

No. Revoker the guy and priest is still great vs the rest of the deck as well as elves and dredge and Dnt. Also RB Reanimator may still be more popular.

Yeah, I have room for only 1 if I wanted to play it and I don't like the dissynergy with it and vial. I've been seeing lists now that are running Intuitions and 3x Omniscience, which is also a big strike against us. I used Ethersworn Canonist to great effect against Omniscience, but I did get a little lucky that they didn't draw a threat.


you can also flicker the token.

Yeah, that's definitely one way to answer, but isn't flickering the Artisan better, especially if there are multiple tokens?

[rostov]

(Disclaimer: past 2 years: son=DnT; me=SnS)

Even if SnS does not play 3x intuition + 3x Omniscience (+3 gris +3 emrakuls), the non-intuition lists before the ban runs 2x omniscience already (a few run 1x JTMS for alt win cons against W or R or colourless prison decks). Personal and tcdeck results we appear to have better win percentages without the 3+3+3+3 builds preban. Unsure if less black hand disruption would mean a resurgence of that build.

Artisan's mainly against containment priest too aye?

[phg22]

Bob said he was bring in Artisan close to always.

[Tylert]

Yeah, that's definitely one way to answer, but isn't flickering the Artisan better, especially if there are multiple tokens?

In the case where you have a vial: the token only leaves at the beginning of the next end step. so a good opponent will use the artsan at the end of your turn and will be able to attack you once if you flicker the artisan so it's probably better to flicker the token.
if you don't have a vial, yes it is better, but you're probably already dead if your opponent has multiple tokens :)

[Driemer84]

I get that Artisan is another way to cheat in a creature, but isn't that the part of the deck we are strong against? We still have Karakas to deal with these same threats that would come in off Sneak Attack or Show and Tell. Emrakul isn't being cast like it would from Omniscience, so there's less danger there. The tokens or the Artisan can be flickered and dealt with. They're exiling the creature from their hand so Emrakul isn't getting shuffled back in and they are down a threat in their deck. Also, a turn 2 Artisan still can't be activated until turn 3 and the token it creates can't attack until turn 4. It seems much less dangerous than Show and Tell even if it's a repeatable effect. I don't know if this is a card we really need to warp the deck around aside from upping the revoker count, but maybe I'm underestimating the card.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

It's another avenue fair decks must fight. Used to, we worried about Sneak Attack and SnT. We combatted that with Revoker and Containment priest. Then they started using Omniscience, which makes it + Emmy Karakas Proof, Revoker proof, Containment priest proof, so the best we have imo is Ethersworn Canonist to hopefully slow down their ability to actually win, but if they already have a creature it's all pretty much a moot point, or get a little lucky and resolve Leonin Relic-Warder, preferably on Omni. Ok. So then we use Prelate to help combat SnT so that they can't have Omniscience, then your hatebear of choice to turn off Sneak Attack. Well, here is a 3cmc creature we can Revoker, but isn't hit by really anything else besides StP, unless you want to use a council's judgment, but it's probably pretty important tomsave that for omni. Now finally, we are at a point where we must face all these options and the waters have become too muddied for me to clearly see the correct option all the time because of the varied avenues to victory the deck has. That's also only if you can correctly identify which version of Show and Tell decks you are facing, as there is still Omni-Sneak Hybrid and Omnitell that can look like other varients at first.

The deck just keeps getting better, which is scary in my opinion, because with the right pilot it feels nigh unbeatable so far.

[rostov]

19 lands + 4 petals, 8 counters, 10-11 cantrips, 0-1 jtms, 2x4 engines (show and tell, sneak attack), and 2x4 bombs (emrakul, griselbrand) with 2 flex slots for omniscience as a pseudo-engine/accelerator. If Bob Huang's bringing in artisan most of the time it means it's time I tested 2 artisans to replace the omniscience m/b. Who needs omniscience after show and tell when I can have both a looter (pseudo-accelerator) and engine in a body that is not taxed? Sideboard now goes from 2 defense grid to 0-1 therefore more GY hate or DnT hate (red answers? Chaos Maw?)

More headaches for my DnT son as we test more. Is there a cheap W-based ghostly prison or ensnaring bridge on a stick?

[Tylert]

19 lands + 4 petals, 8 counters, 10-11 cantrips, 0-1 jtms, 2x4 engines (show and tell, sneak attack), and 2x4 bombs (emrakul, griselbrand) with 2 flex slots for omniscience as a pseudo-engine/accelerator. If Bob Huang's bringing in artisan most of the time it means it's time I tested 2 artisans to replace the omniscience m/b. Who needs omniscience after show and tell when I can have both a looter (pseudo-accelerator) and engine in a body that is not taxed? Sideboard now goes from 2 defense grid to 0-1 therefore more GY hate or DnT hate (red answers? Chaos Maw?)

More headaches for my DnT son as we test more. Is there a cheap W-based ghostly prison or ensnaring bridge on a stick?

Peacekeeper

[Finn]

Windburn muse

I doubt this is the direction for us though. How about swords to plowshares? This feels like an overreaction to an untested card. If this guy goes in the deck something comes out. What will they remove? We can exploit the space. Is it truly a better avenue for them in the long run?

[compacta_d]

Don't flicker the token.

Flickering the guy causes all tokens to go away.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Don't flicker the token.

Flickering the guy causes all tokens to go away.We know, but as already mentioned, it doesn't until end of the turn, so they still get a swing in. Maybe Orim's Chant kicked stops the swing for the flickerwisp to finish it off. Too deep, I know...

[Umezete]

Artisan seems to mostly be a non-issue now it's a known factor. Just don't cut all your removal and you're set. Priest still good against the standard creature show and tell.

Artisan seems like a solid card for them but besides priest, ever angle of attack we have hits it. Including karakas.

Somehow I don't think artisan gives Sneak and show much of an advantage in our matchup in particular.

[potentia]

How has Sanctum Prelate been performing (either MB or SB) and in which match ups are we bringing it from SB?

[Medea_]

Guest tournament report! (http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?p=1877)

[Farone]

Channelfireball just had an article about our favored deck, which shows my deck I played 1.5 week ago, just after the DRS and Probe ban.

https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/death-and-taxes-has-a-brightling-future-in-new-legacy/

[ParisFlorian]

-1 Cavern + 1 Plains and -1 Recruiter +1 Serra Avenger and this also exactly my current build. I love it.
It seems much stronger than RW D&T in this meta.