[Deck] Death and Taxes

[Farone]

Cavern of Souls is a trap, imho, especially with that man different creature types, white non-creature cards in the 75 and SFM activations. Never was a fan in Cavern in D&T for that reason.

2-4 Mariner and 1-2 Soulherder is probably the most you should run. Maybe Meddling Mage in the SB, but that's it. Definitely no blue noncreature cards.

Well atleast Mariner is a Human, that helps. Cavern for Soulherder is a bit tough.
I am curious though to try both out, not sure what mana base though, I own 2 tundra's, so that helps...

[Secretly.A.Bee]

No blue. Its not right for this deck yet, maybe ever. I own 4 Tundra.

[colo]

I've played 4 rounds yesterday with my Uw D&T list, and went 3-1. Round 1, I lost 1-2 against BUG Leovold, but the third game was pre-decided by drawing a 7-card no-lander, followed by 6-card all-lander, followed by a 5 -card no-lander, followed by a keepable mulligan to 4, which was then mutilated by Hymn to Tourach. I went on to win against Infect (2-1), Eldrazi [2-0), and UR Delver (2-1). Deck is lit as fuck.

For reference, my current list:


1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Aven Mimeomancer
1 Epochrasite
1 Mangara of Corondor
1 Stonecloaker
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Flickerwisp
3 Geist of Saint Traft
3 Recruiter of the Guard
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

2 Flooded Strand
2 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
3 Karakas
3 Plains
3 Tundra
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

SB:
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 True-Name Nemesis
2 Daze
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Rest in Peace
2 Spellstutter Sprite
3 Council's Judgment


I'll probably cut the Aven Mimeomancer (I'm still fond of its ability, and it is respected by opponents despite not being familiar with it) for a Unsettled Mariner, and maybe even a Geist of Saint Traft.

[Tylert]

I've played 4 rounds yesterday with my Uw D&T list, and went 3-1. Round 1, I lost 1-2 against BUG Leovold, but the third game was pre-decided by drawing a 7-card no-lander, followed by 6-card all-lander, followed by a 5 -card no-lander, followed by a keepable mulligan to 4, which was then mutilated by Hymn to Tourach. I went on to win against Infect (2-1), Eldrazi [2-0), and UR Delver (2-1). Deck is lit as fuck.

For reference, my current list:


1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Aven Mimeomancer
1 Epochrasite
1 Mangara of Corondor
1 Stonecloaker
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Flickerwisp
3 Geist of Saint Traft
3 Recruiter of the Guard
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

2 Flooded Strand
2 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
3 Karakas
3 Plains
3 Tundra
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

SB:
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 True-Name Nemesis
2 Daze
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Rest in Peace
2 Spellstutter Sprite
3 Council's Judgment


I'll probably cut the Aven Mimeomancer (I'm still fond of its ability, and it is respected by opponents despite not being familiar with it) for a Unsettled Mariner, and maybe even a Geist of Saint Traft.

So no inclusion of the 1/1 blink spirit?

[colo]

I don't think I will try it initially, no. It's just a 1/1 for 3 after all, while Mariner has a bit of built-in resilience, and a better body.

[Medea_]

So there have been some rumblings about D&T playable cards from this set. If you want to hear my opinions on those cards (as well as the rest of the Modern Horizons spoilers), come hang out tomorrow night at 8:00 PM EST on my stream! (https://twitch.tv/deathandtaxesftw) The vod will be dumped to the Thraben University Youtube channel later as well.

[Tylert]

Too long to do a paper version? :)

Not gonna wait until 2AM tonight, so i'll Watch it on your youtube channel.

[Medea_]

Here's a D&T league (https://youtu.be/c-aYiprSeuM) for you all with an interesting Cavern/Prelate heavy build.

[Medea_]

Want daily D&T videos? I've got you covered! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0wDbbrtthc)

[colo]

Very cool, Phil - I'll make sure to check this out! :) (I can't get the hang of twitch or live-streaming in general, but recorded videos on youtube are something I do enjoy watching at times.)


I had another good 4-0 run at yesterday's FNM Legacy, with 19 players attending. I beat ANT (2-0), Rb Goblins (2-1), UR Delver (2-1), and RUG Delver feat- Wren and Six (2-1). Deck was unchanged from last time around, as it, like, totally rocks anyone's *ocks off.

[jdc5011]

Been playing DnT for a while now and I guess you can say I’m kinda stuck in my ways but I don’t like the blue splash at all. I am currently on the mono white 2 cavern/3 karakas build with pontif in the side for this pesky TNNs. I can’t bring myself to completely cut mirran crusader but that could be because there’s still a lot of Grixis and BUG in my meta. Completely hosed a BG rock deck the other night by landing mom into crusader into prelate on 2. He had no answer at all.

Anyway, I have always struggled with sidebiarding, particularly against UW control running a bunch of basics. I feel like I want cataclysm here but it also feels real bad cause they’re pretty much always ready with the counterspell. Am I wrong to bring in cata here? Do you guys bring it in against the U based control decks or is it mostly just a tool for those grindy non-blue matchups?

[colo]

I'm not running Cataclysm right now, but next time I'll play I'm planning to. The format - or at least, my local metagame - seems to be evolving towards more superfriends-esque lists, which makes the Cataclysm pay-off ever so higher and sweeter. And yes, UW Control is one of those lists where you'll want to have it at the ready, post-board. It will always be a must-counter for them if you time it OK-ish, and you should work strategically at making it resolve. Both Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and Ethersworn Canonist can help with that (most easily, of course, with an Aether Vial on 2).

I still think the U splash is the way to go. Last Friday, people told me I had the highest recorded Legacy win rate at my LGS this year so far, and I attribute this success to Wu D&T.

[colo]

I piloted a slightly tweaked list (+2 Unsettled Mariner, -1 Aven Mimeomancer, -1 Mangara of Corondor) to 2nd place yesterday, losing the finals 2-1 to Mono R Painter (shit happens - I got too greedy with Mother of Runes protecting a Flickerwisp that was vialed in to block a Smuggler's Copter and flicker Koth of the Hammer, which lead to my opponent blasting the Phyrexian Revoker that kept his Grindstone at bay - but I was already dead on board to a rather tricky line my opponent *probably* wouldn't have seen at that time). Before that, I beat Dutch Staxx 2-0, then mono-W Death and Taxes 1-0 (in an epic game of 47 minutes of back-and-forth that I managed to eek out due to a mistake of my opponent), then Goblins 2-0.

I also adapted the sideboard to include +2 Cataclysm, for -1 True-Name Nemesis and -1 Leonin Relic-Warder. Haven't had the need or opportunity to cast it yet, though.

Deck is bonkers-good.

[Finn]

I would love to hear how Unsettled Mariner has been playing for you.

[colo]

I don't have enough anecdata on the card yet to make a judgment call, since I've only had it in play two times where it did not really matter: Once against Goblins near the end of game 2, when I already had my opponent crippled beyond recovery (but it would have made any of opp's Pyrokinesis a lot worse even at that point), and once against Painter, with my hellbent opponent at seven mana (counting land sources only). I believe to know it has amazing potential, though, and I will keep running this card.

[jdc5011]

How are you all feeling about the mono W version now that lands has hit a bit of a resurgence with W6? I always found lands to be a very tough matchup. I run an extra prelate in the board (1 MB 1 SB) as well as the same split with Tomik. Haven’t gotten to stick tomik against lands yet but it seems really good.

[colo]

Four rounds of FNM Legacy; I went 2-2 this time. I lost to UR Delver 2-1, won against a weird UW Superfriends Control list 2-0, won against Eldrazi Stompy 2-1, and lost to Maverick 2-1. I don't think I could have done any better this time, esp. taking my last opponent's streak of luck into account :D

I've gotten some reps with Unsettled Mariner on the battlefield now. It is a strong card, but since it's a conditional counter, and it therefore doesn't matter if your opponent forgets that it exists/will trigger, it seems a lot weaker than the ability of e. g. Kira, Great Glass-Spinner, where not having it in mind will not merely cost you unexpected mana, but the ability or spell as a whole. It did pull the most weight in the Eldrazi matchup, where my opponent had both Walking Ballista and Blast Zone on board, and couldn't utilize either to their full extent, due to the additional cost pinging my creatures incurred. I'll keep collecting more impressions on it.

Game two against UW Contol was kinda awesome: My (hellbent) opponent had a vomit-inducing cocktail on board: Humility, Propaganda, Back to Basics, Elspeth, Sun's Champion, a metric ton of basic snow lands, and 3 Soldier Tokens. I had basic Plains, an untapped Tundra, two untapped Wastelands, 2 tapped Rishadan Ports, 1 other "perma-tapped" land, and a mix of three assorted 1/1 creatures without abilities on board. My life total was like 25 or so, and his hovered around 11. You know which top-deck can pull you out of that kind of a tough spot, right? ;) Right! One of my two Cataclysms cleaned up real good, with me keeping Vial, basic Plains, and Unsettled Mariner, and him keeping Island and Humility. We traded 1/1s in the combat after, because I had more creatures coming in through Vial. I recovered to three lands over five turns, cast one of the two Council's Judgment that I had been sandbagging for quite a while (but with too many nasty things to choose from to get rid off) banishing Humility, vialed in Geist of Saint Traft at his next end step, and beat him down during our 3rd extra turn. That did feel rather good.

My biggest frustration is rolling dice these days - over the last eight matches, I won exactly one time... I'm very fond of the London Mulligan by now, and don't think that it benefits combo-like decks much more than fair decks like ours.

[Captain Hammer]

How are you all feeling about the mono W version now that lands has hit a bit of a resurgence with W6? I always found lands to be a very tough matchup. I run an extra prelate in the board (1 MB 1 SB) as well as the same split with Tomik. Haven’t gotten to stick tomik against lands yet but it seems really good.

W6 in general completely wrecks DnT. Pinging our guys for 1 damage is very tough on us and the 2 mana crucible of worlds that is W6 makes our taxing effects much less potent. If W6 continues to be so pervasive, DnT will either have to adapt or die.

[Thorbjorn]

W6 in general completely wrecks DnT. Pinging our guys for 1 damage is very tough on us and the 2 mana crucible of worlds that is W6 makes our taxing effects much less potent. If W6 continues to be so pervasive, DnT will either have to adapt or die.

I disagree. It seems that classic DnT can beat W6 with skills alone. The really hard match ups are still control, especially Grixis.

[Numenorean]

I disagree. It seems that classic DnT can beat W6 with skills alone. The really hard match ups are still control, especially Grixis.Tell us more about these skills...

I am thinking that [[Celestial Purge]] works well.

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[Thorgils]

W6 in general completely wrecks DnT. Pinging our guys for 1 damage is very tough on us and the 2 mana crucible of worlds that is W6 makes our taxing effects much less potent. If W6 continues to be so pervasive, DnT will either have to adapt or die.

Maybe is a stompy version, like it is played in MKM Series 2019 Frankfurt from Seipel, a better D&T version for this meta? Also considering the new london mulligan rules...

https://mtgtop8.com/event?e=22689&d=354838&f=LE

He arrive in top8 in a 282 player tournament and i think the deck is more a death & taxes version than an eldrazi version

[Numenorean]

Also, [[Tomik, Distinguished Advokist]] would work well, but he can't be tutored via recuiter.

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[JitteJitte]

http://mythicspoiler.com/c19/cards/bloodthirstyblade1.jpg
Repeatable removal is certainly interesting. Delver & Angler are reasonable targets. Marit Lage, Emrakul to a lesser extent. I don't think this makes the cut, but I'm interested if anyone has thoughts.

[Copperhead]

W6 in general completely wrecks DnT. Pinging our guys for 1 damage is very tough on us and the 2 mana crucible of worlds that is W6 makes our taxing effects much less potent. If W6 continues to be so pervasive, DnT will either have to adapt or die.

Anyone considered going with the Red splash again? Magus of the Moon stops the W6 land recursion. It's not a complete solution but like anything else with D&T, its the accumulation of small pieces that put the choke hold on decks. Revoker shuts down W6 obviously. One Mom and one Magus shut it down also.

Celestial Purge doesn't seem terrible considering it also deals with Plague Engineer.

[Tylert]

http://mythicspoiler.com/c19/cards/bloodthirstyblade1.jpg
Repeatable removal is certainly interesting. Delver & Angler are reasonable targets. Marit Lage, Emrakul to a lesser extent. I don't think this makes the cut, but I'm interested if anyone has thoughts.

How come this is a removal?
In a two player game, this does nothing except forcing the equipped creature to attack you (Because it is not able to attack another player).

[JitteJitte]

In 2 player, a goaded creature cannot attack. It would sit on the board as a blocker, allowing time to move into the late game.

[H]

In 2 player, a goaded creature cannot attack. It would sit on the board as a blocker, allowing time to move into the late game.

Unfortunately that is not how it works.


If the creature can't attack a player other than you, then it must attack you or a planeswalker if it can. This is most likely when the game is down to two players. And keep in mind that a goaded creature remains goaded until your next turn. So if another player gains control of it before then, it attacks under the same conditions if able.

You can see the rule explained here. (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/conspiracy-take-crown-mechanics-2016-08-15)

[JitteJitte]

Whoops! My mistake. Apologies for diluting the thread.

[Thorbjorn]

Anyone considered going with the Red splash again? Magus of the Moon stops the W6 land recursion. It's not a complete solution but like anything else with D&T, its the accumulation of small pieces that put the choke hold on decks. Revoker shuts down W6 obviously. One Mom and one Magus shut it down also.

Celestial Purge doesn't seem terrible considering it also deals with Plague Engineer.

Hi. Why not just consider 2 Rip in Main? It destroys many decks.

[Tylert]

Hi. Why not just consider 2 Rip in Main? It destroys many decks.

The problem is not about recursing lands i guess. It's more about having a turn one repeatable pinger.

[Mirrislegend]

Has Force of Virtue been discussed as an answer to W6? Some even push this concept further with Squadron Hawk.

[Thorgils]

No more discussion on this deck? Death and Taxes in this configuration is no more considerated a deck to beat... we have to research a new configuration for return competitive tier 1 deck. I think:
1)giver of runes instead mom
2)3 copy of tomik instead serra avenger and crusader/ other stupid creature
3) play more sanctum prelate on main
4)seem foolish but i think we have to reduce the number of flickerwisp...
My idea is simple: reduce the number of x/1 to only 4 copy of thalia , 2 revoker and MAYBE 2 recruiter of the guard. Became more an heavy lock deck and use only the stoneforge package for fighting creature.
What do you think?

[colo]

Just play the UW version I've been running for the past few months? %) Geist of Saint Traft solves many problems with our creatures' resiliency. Also, make sure to try Epochrasite.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Just play the UW version I've been running for the past few months? %) Geist of Saint Traft solves many problems with our creatures' resiliency. Also, make sure to try Epochrasite.Lol I was just looking at Epochrasite yesterday.

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[Tylert]

Just play the UW version I've been running for the past few months? %) Geist of Saint Traft solves many problems with our creatures' resiliency. Also, make sure to try Epochrasite.

What's your updated list again? :)

[Lejay]

If that can help a guy posted on the french legacy forum saying he is testing 2 Jotun Grunt to better handle W6.

[Eldariel]

Jotun Grunt is one of those guys that's very good when it works but just too unreliable and annoyingly generally card disadvantage to actually win games with. It requires a very specific metagame to shine. Again, W6's pinging is the main problem and between Mom, Thalia, Revoker (though Revoker itself answers W6 and thus can't really be a problem there) and Flickerwisp, much of our power is behind X/1s and those cards aren't really replaceable (Thalia and Flickerwisp in particular). Mom in particular is so good when it comes online but W6 can just keep it down pretty reliably. The fact that Giver can't protect itself makes it far less potent on many boards. Sadly, this is a Thalia-deck and Thalia just became incredibly much weaker with W6. I think much like with Kolaghan's Command, we just sort of have to accept that RG is a poor match-up (much as RB is problematic but Kolaghan's costing 3 at least makes it more beatable) or rebuild the deck ground-up quite probably losing much of what made it good in the first place. Some sort of Humans base could be more resilient to W6 but without Phantasmal Image, Meddling Mage/Sanctum Prelate/Freebooter lose much of their power and PI just seems too bad against W6 to play if that's the problem we want to solve. No matter how you spin it, you want Thalia at least and Thalia and Taxes are going to be weak to W6 no matter what.

[AntiquatedNotion]

I placed 28th in the SCG Syracuse open with the list below. I won't profess that this list is necessarily optimized. I didn't test as much as I'd like and I have never played a match with Giver of Runes yet. I may opt to run them as a concession to Engineer and Wrenn depending on how the meta shakes out.

http://www.starcitygames.com/decks/132873

Matches :
R1 : 0-2 vs U/W Stoneblade
R2: 2-0 vs G/W Depths
R3: 2-1 vs RUG Delver
R4: 2-1 vs Red Stompy (Wilson Hunter)
R5: 2-1 vs 4c Astroble control
R6: 1-1-1 vs U/W Stoneblade
R7: 2-0 vs G/W Depths
R8: 2-1 vs RUG Delver (Dylan Hand)
R9: 2-0 G/B Depths
R10: 2-0 vs G/B Depths (Ross Mirriam)
R11: 2-0 vs RUG Delver
R12: 2-0 vs 4c Astrolabe control (Aiden Brier)
R13: 1-2 vs 4c Loam (Jon Orr)
R14: 1-2 vs Elves (Charles Azuelos)
R15: 0-2 vs RUG Delver (Matt Tumavitch)

Dropping round one seems to be a recent trend for me. My last two 1k events went round one loss into top 8, and it was looking like this had the same trajectory for a time.

Round 12 and 14 were on camera feature matches. Check it out if you want to see why Cataclysm is a good card, or see me struggle against Elves. I made a brain-dead play against Elves in game two, but won despite it. Game three was almost as fortunate a mull to five that I could hope for, but drew Mom a turn too late.

The loam match was a slugfest. Sanctum Prelate was the game one hero. I took a poor line when I chose to fetch a Flickerwisp instead of a Revoker on Knight in game two. Not sure if that would have made the difference there. Game three went long, and saw me cast a Cataclysm. I think I pull it out if I find a StP or CJ at any point of the game, but not meant to be.

The best Cataclysm of the tournament came in round 6 to kill Jace, Gideon, and like 6 lands to steal game two. I had lethal damage in game three if we had one more turn so it ended as a draw.

[Emurian]

I watched the Legacy stream during my nightshifts. Seemed like a really fair playing field overall.

At least you didnt pun as hard as the storm player did in his G1 in the finals. Dude has everything he needs, commentator: He has it as long as he doesnt go down to 1 card. *storm player proceeds to go down to 1 card in hand.* Opponent seems to think for a bit, chat goes: Oh shit here we go. Snap into K command.

I was slow clapping irl for that play. :laugh:

[studderingdave]

What is the general opinion on Cavern of Souls? I have been running 2 and it hasn't felt as strong as it used to. I suppose creature diversity in our deck hampers it a bit, seems like the 10-12 basic plains are serving people better.

[Tylert]

What is the general opinion on Cavern of Souls? I have been running 2 and it hasn't felt as strong as it used to. I suppose creature diversity in our deck hampers it a bit, seems like the 10-12 basic plains are serving people better.

It really dépends on your creature setup.
Diversity but also casting cost. Serra avenger / Mirran crusader / Flickerwisp are harder to cast if you named kor for Soneforge mystic :)
I wouldn't go Under 1 cavern as it is still very good against blue deck when it happens to show up.


On another topic:
I kept seeing lists playing 4 giver of runes over Mother of runes in MTG TOP 8.
Is it a typo? Or do people consider that the colorless protection is really better than having the possibility for Mother of runes to protect herself?

[aedemiel]

On another topic:
I kept seeing lists playing 4 giver of runes over Mother of runes in MTG TOP 8.
Is it a typo? Or do people consider that the colorless protection is really better than having the possibility for Mother of runes to protect herself?

In a format filled with W6 it's good to have some x/2 creatures.

[Tylert]

In a format filled with W6 it's good to have some x/2 creatures.

Aaaahh :) I forgot about the 2 toughness :)
i'm going to order 4 of these right now. you never know :)

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I wish Iatee were here. I'm back on Wr Taxes and would like to hear his thoughts on everything. I miss 10 years ago when these boards were a goldmine of interesting and useful conversations full of innovation and creativity.

Time marches on.

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[colo]

Why not post your list, and hear what all the others on The Source have to say? :)

[Tylert]

Yeah i second that.
But at the same time i guess that people are less likely to play the deck in a world of Wrenn and Six and that's why there is so few activity here...

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Why not post your list, and hear what all the others on The Source have to say? :)Hey, thanks for the friendly post, I will this weekend. I didn't mean to imply no one here was good enough to help or have good ideas, it was simply his pet and I liked his thinking.

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[colo]

I didn't perceive it that way, was just trying encourage you sharing :) Wr has always been a strong variant of the deck (I was on Imperial Taxes for a long time before Recruiter of the Guard got printed); I'm looking forward to take in what you came up with.

Has anyone tried to incorporate Deafening Silence into the 75(+) yet?

[Tylert]

I didn't perceive it that way, was just trying encourage you sharing :) Wr has always been a strong variant of the deck (I was on Imperial Taxes for a long time before Recruiter of the Guard got printed); I'm looking forward to take in what you came up with.

Has anyone tried to incorporate Deafening Silence into the 75(+) yet?

I understand that it is a 1 mana answer to storm, and that it comes one turn earlier than cannonist, but i'd rather have a ten turn clock than have something sitting there waiting to eat an echoing truth. I think the fact that it does damage really balances the fact that you can loose on turn 2.

[Qweerios]

I understand that it is a 1 mana answer to storm, and that it comes one turn earlier than cannonist, but i'd rather have a ten turn clock than have something sitting there waiting to eat an echoing truth. I think the fact that it does damage really balances the fact that you can loose on turn 2.

It doesn't die to Massacre.

[iatee]

I wish Iatee were here. I'm back on Wr Taxes and would like to hear his thoughts on everything. I miss 10 years ago when these boards were a goldmine of interesting and useful conversations full of innovation and creativity.

Time marches on.

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Hey that's very nice of you. I also think the current state of this message board (and message boards in general) is kinda tragic. I grew up on message boards and think that Discord is just a poor imitation of one.

I've moved from playing Taxes to Humans and although it doesn't even have an easily findable page on The Source, I'm convinced that it's the best Thalia deck in the format right now and very much a tier 1 deck. Humans was kinda the logical endpoint for WR taxes - it was always moving towards more Caverns and humans. I feel like D&T took a huge hit with Modern Horizons and I'd be surprised if it ever regains its place in the format (though who knows, they do like printing pushed hatebears.)

If I were playing D&T I would be going pretty hard on Prelate and Tomik right now - those cards have been winning a ton of games for me. If I were playing WR, I would definitely be trying the new Shatter guy, and maybe Robber of the Rich.

[FTW]

If you're losing to X/1 hate, is it worth just shifting the deck around that by either:

a) playing anthem effects like Benalish Marshal/Honor of the Pure

b) playing more X/2 hatebears like Leonin Arbiter+Ghost Quarter, Sanctum Prelate, Tomik

c) maindeck Phyrexian Revoker naming Wrenn..

[Secretly.A.Bee]

If you're losing to X/1 hate, is it worth just shifting the deck around that by either:

a) playing anthem effects like Benalish Marshal/Honor of the Pure

b) playing more X/2 hatebears like Leonin Arbiter+Ghost Quarter, Sanctum Prelate, Tomik

c) maindeck Phyrexian Revoker naming Wrenn..

I'm not, but I appreciate the suggestions. I agree with you, in fact:

A.) I am playing Force of Virtues in the side.

B.) I'm playing Wr Taxes, not traditional taxes, and when I get a second I'll post it. It has 1 of both Prelate and Tomik main.

C.) Already play 2 revoker main, have for years.



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[Secretly.A.Bee]

Here is my current list:

25
3 Mother
2 Giver
4 Thalia
1 Tomik
2 Revoker
3 Stoneforge
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Prelate
3 Flickerwisp
2 Recruiter otG
1 Imperial Recruiter
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar

11
1 BS
1 SoFI
1 Jitte
4 StP
4 Vial

24
4 Wasteland
4 Port
3 Karakas
2 Sunbaked Canyon
1 Plateau
4 Arid Mesa
1 Prismatic Vista
4 Plains
1 Mountain

SB:15
2 Harsh Mentor
1 Tomik
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Prelate
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Rest in Peace
2 Council's Judgment
3 Deafening Silence
2 Force of Virtue
1 FLEX (currently a Pithing Needle)


There it is. Nothing groundbreaking, just trying to attack a new meta.

[Tristin183]

Here is my current list:

25
3 Mother
2 Giver
4 Thalia
1 Tomik
2 Revoker
3 Stoneforge
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Prelate
3 Flickerwisp
2 Recruiter otG
1 Imperial Recruiter
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar

11
1 BS
1 SoFI
1 Jitte
4 StP
4 Vial

24
4 Wasteland
4 Port
3 Karakas
2 Sunbaked Canyon
1 Plateau
4 Arid Mesa
1 Prismatic Vista
4 Plains
1 Mountain

SB:15
2 Harsh Mentor
1 Tomik
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Prelate
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Rest in Peace
2 Council's Judgment
3 Deafening Silence
2 Force of Virtue
1 FLEX (currently a Pithing Needle)


There it is. Nothing groundbreaking, just trying to attack a new meta.

Can you explain your choices?

[FTW]

Added formatting




//25 creatures:
3 Mother of Runes
2 Giver of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Tomik, Distinguished Advokist
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Sanctum Prelate
3 Flickerwisp
2 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Imperial Recruiter
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar

//11 spells:
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial

//24 lands:
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
2 Sunbaked Canyon
1 Plateau
4 Arid Mesa
1 Prismatic Vista
4 Plains
1 Mountain

//SB:15
2 Harsh Mentor
1 Tomik, Distinguished Advokist
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Rest in Peace
2 Council's Judgment
3 Deafening Silence
2 Force of Virtue
1 Pithing Needle



Interesting choices. I see you're using multiple of those angles to attack the meta. I really like the 2 Force of Virtue in the SB and Deafening Silence as spell hate that doesn't die to Plague/Massacre.

How much value do you get out of the red splash? Seems like it's mainly there for a 1-of Magus. Is Pia that strong against the meta?

I like the 3xKarakas to hate on Depths.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Can you explain your choices?


If you have specific questions I'm able to address them. I'm not writing the equivalent of a mini-primer, though, no.



Added formatting



Interesting choices. I see you're using multiple of those angles to attack the meta. I really like the 2 Force of Virtue in the SB and Deafening Silence as spell hate that doesn't die to Plague/Massacre.

How much value do you get out of the red splash? Seems like it's mainly there for a 1-of Magus. Is Pia that strong against the meta?

I like the 3xKarakas to hate on Depths.


The red slash is not about magus, that is in fact the most gimmicky aspect of it. Pia and Kiran is a grinding machine that when paired with vial on 4 and a Karakas is a token engine that needs only time to get there.

I am only testing Harsh Mentor, as I'm unsure how good it will be against W&6 getting wastelands and fetches back. I thought it may be the straw that broke the camel's back here.

I have added Sky Terror as card 61 to test, also want to test thalia 2.0 as 61st card with a second in the board.

Karakas has always been a 3-4 of in DnT, and long before the printing of D.D.

This is what I mean when I say I miss Iatee...

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[colo]

Now that's a rather light R splash; I was expecting something more... daring, or revolutionary, I guess? :)

With this specific selection of creatures, don't you think it'd suffice/be better to just run Cavern of Souls, and take most countermagic concerns out of the game for D&T? I recognize that'd make Pia and Kiran harder to cast, but there's ways around that, and you generally only want them on the battlefield if you can recur them, or they'll finish the job for sure, so ticking up Vial to 4 isn't so bad.

The miser Imperial Recruiter is there to be able to fetch Tomik, or am I missing something?

Have you ever considered Slayers' Stronghold as a decent Wr utility land?

I believe that Thalia, Heretic Cathar will prove much stronger in any testing than Sky Terror ever could.


I'm gong on the record once more to say that I think it's incorrect these days NOT to run a single Stonecloaker in the main. In many cases, it is a superior Flickerwisp.


A few months back already I was wondering if it would make sense to "cross-breed" Wr D&T with Big D&T (the variants that run Restoration Angel et al.), and consider having Vial go to 4 as part of the core strategy. Now, In a W&6 and generally walker-heavy meta, I think we can afford to go slower, but higher, and bring in a few tricks that aren't expected. There's also a bunch of powerful cards that are, I think, being overlooked by the community (at least as far as I'm aware), and that deserve testing. If I weren't so constrained on time, I'd really like to extensivley test Alms Collector and Stalking Leonin in a Big D&T list, for example.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Its not a light red splash, its the traditional red splash. I put in the canyons because in a wasteland heavy meta, these draw you cards in response rather than just dying like cavern, and in a deck with 24 lands, its nice to be able to turn them into pressure later.

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[Tylert]

Now that's a rather light R splash; I was expecting something more... daring, or revolutionary, I guess? :)

With this specific selection of creatures, don't you think it'd suffice/be better to just run Cavern of Souls, and take most countermagic concerns out of the game for D&T? I recognize that'd make Pia and Kiran harder to cast, but there's ways around that, and you generally only want them on the battlefield if you can recur them, or they'll finish the job for sure, so ticking up Vial to 4 isn't so bad.

The miser Imperial Recruiter is there to be able to fetch Tomik, or am I missing something?


Seems like it is.
Not sure about it thought. Flickerwisp is also a good target vs darkdepths and you have the possibility of chaining these if you have a recruiter of the guard and not playing vs dark depths.



Have you ever considered Slayers' Stronghold as a decent Wr utility land?

I believe that Thalia, Heretic Cathar will prove much stronger in any testing than Sky Terror ever could.


I'm gong on the record once more to say that I think it's incorrect these days NOT to run a single Stonecloaker in the main. In many cases, it is a superior Flickerwisp.


Could you please elaborate? Flickerwisp does extend your board and can target an opponent's permanent. This is why we use it instead of stonecloaker.



A few months back already I was wondering if it would make sense to "cross-breed" Wr D&T with Big D&T (the variants that run Restoration Angel et al.), and consider having Vial go to 4 as part of the core strategy. Now, In a W&6 and generally walker-heavy meta, I think we can afford to go slower, but higher, and bring in a few tricks that aren't expected. There's also a bunch of powerful cards that are, I think, being overlooked by the community (at least as far as I'm aware), and that deserve testing. If I weren't so constrained on time, I'd really like to extensivley test Alms Collector and Stalking Leonin in a Big D&T list, for example.

If spirit of the labyrinth is not played today, I don't see why alms collector would be played more (Except maybe for the fact that it has more than 1 toughness) but of course a bit of testing would be better.
Stalking leonin: Why not. it's obviously a 2 for 1, with a decent body.

[colo]

Could you please elaborate? Flickerwisp does extend your board and can target an opponent's permanent. This is why we use it instead of stonecloaker.

(On Stonecloaker) Think about how often you use Flickerwisp to save a creature of yours from removal, instead of denying your opponent a permanent for a turn/combat step. I know I do quite often. Add 2 toughness, built-in, pre-board graveyard interaction, and "native" flash to the mix, and you have a winner in my book.

I'm also intrigued by Charming Prince, but I guess you'd want to build around a little to benefit from its flicker mode some more. Recruiter of the Guard, Soulherder, Kitchen Finks, Stalking Leonin, Devoted Crop-Mate, Renegade Rallier, ... so many juicy possibilities for interactions somewhere between cute and backbreaking.

@Secretly.A.Bee: How has the WR canopy-in-spirit been treating you? Can you share your thoughts on which specific D&T problems the R splash is solving for you?

Also, I feel like revisiting Wg for (amongst others) Scavenging Ooze could be a solution to the apparent W&6 problem.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

@Secretly.A.Bee: How has the WR canopy-in-spirit been treating you? Can you share your thoughts on which specific D&T problems the R splash is solving for you?

Also, I feel like revisiting Wg for (amongst others) Scavenging Ooze could be a solution to the apparent W&6 problem.

Sunbaked Canyon is fine. I always play a horizon land in DnT traditionally so late game I get a little card advantage, especially if Im land heavy early.

Red just takes me to another level in certain matchups. PKN grinds better than anything else I've seen, which is good against heavy control like miracles and mentor. Magus and Prelate do much work vs. Lands and blue soup (Czech Pile-esque lists).

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[AntiquatedNotion]

I finished 14th at Eternal Weekend with the following list :

Main :
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Giver of Runes
3 Flickerwisp
3 Mirran Crusader
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Tomik, Distinguished Advokist
2 Serra Avenger
1 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Sanctum Prelate

4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

12 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas

Board :
2 Cataclysm
2 Path to Exile
3 Council's Judgement
3 Rest in Peace
1 Pithing Needle
1 Palace Jailer
1 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Chalice of the Void

I wasn't planning on attending until the last minute. Plans with my group dematerialized, and I couldn't find anyone else to travel with. But I still had the days off...and I really wanted to play some legacy so I made the 6.5 hour drive myself. I opted to play a more aggro style list than I have lately with seven fliers and three Crusaders.

I arrived Friday and played in a last chance trial. I beat Alex Bastecki on RUG Delver, Hans Jacob Goddick on Miracles, and someone whose name I forgot on 4c Snow Control to win a round one bye.

R1 : Bye
R2 : 2-0 vs Depths (Robert Hayes)
R3 : 2-0 vs Bomberman (Jody Keith)
R4 : 1-2 vs RUG Delver (Adam Vincik)
R5 : 2-0 vs Karn/Mystic Forge (Matt Deminico)
R6 : 2-1 vs Depths (Chris Medykiewicz)
R7 : 2-0 vs Depths (Gary Yeager)
R8 : 0-2 vs RUG Delver (Alex Bastecki)
R9 : 2-0 vs Red Prison (Robert Beatty)
R10 : 2-1 vs Miracles (Adam Grosse)

The list felt great, and I played pretty well. I don't think I made any errors that cost me games. I lost a couple of the delver games to their aggressive starts backed up by countermagic, and another to Wrenn/Oko.

Some highlights include :
- Resetting Bomberman's Chalice with Flickerwisp
- Turn one Chalice on zero on Bomberman, and porting him out of playing Karn.
- Equipped Mirran Crusader doing his thing through a Marit Lage. Crusader getting lethal through Marit Lage happened more than once.
- Flickerwisping two Ensnaring Bridges to to swing for lethal against the Mystic Forge deck
- Beating Chalice on one, Chalice on two, three Ensnaring Bridges, and an opponent who had all the land because Sanctum Prelate locked his four drops in hand.
- Beating the same opponent in the next game after he Chaliced on two on turn two. I followed with a turn three Prelate on four. He had a dead Abrade and Karn.

[Tylert]

I finished 14th at Eternal Weekend with the following list :

Main :
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Giver of Runes
3 Flickerwisp
3 Mirran Crusader
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Tomik, Distinguished Advokist
2 Serra Avenger
1 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Sanctum Prelate

4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

12 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas

Board :
2 Cataclysm
2 Path to Exile
3 Council's Judgement
3 Rest in Peace
1 Pithing Needle
1 Palace Jailer
1 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Chalice of the Void

I wasn't planning on attending until the last minute. Plans with my group dematerialized, and I couldn't find anyone else to travel with. But I still had the days off...and I really wanted to play some legacy so I made the 6.5 hour drive myself. I opted to play a more aggro style list than I have lately with seven fliers and three Crusaders.

I arrived Friday and played in a last chance trial. I beat Alex Bastecki on RUG Delver, Hans Jacob Goddick on Miracles, and someone whose name I forgot on 4c Snow Control to win a round one bye.

R1 : Bye
R2 : 2-0 vs Depths (Robert Hayes)
R3 : 2-0 vs Bomberman (Jody Keith)
R4 : 1-2 vs RUG Delver (Adam Vincik)
R5 : 2-0 vs Karn/Mystic Forge (Matt Deminico)
R6 : 2-1 vs Depths (Chris Medykiewicz)
R7 : 2-0 vs Depths (Gary Yeager)
R8 : 0-2 vs RUG Delver (Alex Bastecki)
R9 : 2-0 vs Red Prison (Robert Beatty)
R10 : 2-1 vs Miracles (Adam Grosse)

The list felt great, and I played pretty well. I don't think I made any errors that cost me games. I lost a couple of the delver games to their aggressive starts backed up by countermagic, and another to Wrenn/Oko.

Some highlights include :
- Resetting Bomberman's Chalice with Flickerwisp
- Turn one Chalice on zero on Bomberman, and porting him out of playing Karn.
- Equipped Mirran Crusader doing his thing through a Marit Lage. Crusader getting lethal through Marit Lage happened more than once.
- Flickerwisping two Ensnaring Bridges to to swing for lethal against the Mystic Forge deck
- Beating Chalice on one, Chalice on two, three Ensnaring Bridges, and an opponent who had all the land because Sanctum Prelate locked his four drops in hand.
- Beating the same opponent in the next game after he Chaliced on two on turn two. I followed with a turn three Prelate on four. He had a dead Abrade and Karn.

Congrats. Good to see that our beloved archetype can still post good results.

What's your feedback on the use of Giver of runes instead of Mother of runes? Did you regret not being able to protect giver of runes when she's alone on the battlefield?

[AntiquatedNotion]

In a vacuum, Mom is better, but I think the x/1 body is too much of a liability in the current meta. If W&6 were to be banned, I'm sure I'd switch back to Mom. I believe there was one situation this weekend where Giver ate removal that she couldn't protect herself from. And another where it may have been helpful for her to try to wall a Goyf to buy me some time.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I play 3 mom, 2 giver. It's been perfect for me.

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[Mad Mat]

4-3 at the Dutch Open with mono white D&T. Only match-up that felt unwinnable was bant snow. True-name blade with Oko and a ton of basics is kind of stupid.

Lands (23):
6 Plains
4 Snow-Covered Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
2 Flagstones of Trokair

Creatures (26):
3 Giver of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Tomik, Distinguished Advokist
2 Charming Prince
3 Flickerwisp
2 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Mirran Crusader
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Palace Jailer

Other (12):
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Council's Judgment

Sideboard (15):
2 Rest in Peace
2 Council's Judgment
2 Chalice of the Void
2 Deafening Silence
2 Path to Exile
2 Cataclysm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Leonin Relic-Warder

First time playing with princes and they were awesome. Council's in the main didn't really do much.

R1: 2-0 against GW depths.
- Game 1, I get a quick giver + tomik.
- Game 2, I counter his ghost quarter by vialing in Tomik. He is squeezed for mana for the rest of the game, as he slows his own mox with ouphe, which I plow after playing my own revoker on mox (making my vial live again). When he finally goes for the combo to see if I have it, I had the wisp ready for a few turns already.

R2: 1-2 against Grixis delver.
- I lost game 1 to a double delver start with nothing but lands on my end. I actually somehow got to 6 plains and no spells before my puzzled opponent beat me to death. I should have mulled this (4 plains on 6, two 3-drops), but I think it would have been a mull to five and the massive mana flood would have cost me the game anyhow.
- Game 2, he got brainstorm-locked and I had double waste. He did actually side wrong because he saw nothing but plains game 1. Guess people really don’t expect d&t anymore.
- Game 3, I grind him down with double port. I lose in part to a greedy play of casting jitte, rather than using SFM, for tempo reasons, and in part because he has a blowout brazen follower to win the race, followed up with a bolt for lethal and a plague engineer for back-up (shrinking my crusader).

R3: Dredge 2-1
- Game 1: I almost manage to grind all his bridges and ichorids out, but just barely fail to stabilize due to missing two land drops.
- Game 2: I have a turn 2 RIP after a turn 1 vial. He has an end step nature’s claim, followed by looting + LED to get 2 zombies, hogaak and Iona on the table. I take care of Iona with Karakas, so he makes a huge grave-troll + casts Hogaak again, and doesn’t attack to keep his 3 bridges alive. I slam my second RIP, karakas hogaak and he scoops.
- Game 3: I have a surgical, but he has looting into discard thug and imp. So I wait, as he goes end step street wraith and draw step dredge. He fails to dredge any other dredgers. The next turn, I drop a revoker on LED and waste his land the turn after, locking him out of the game.

R4: White Eldrazi 2-1
- Game 1: He has a slow start, which allows me to play out my entire hand before his first TKS hits (SFM-ing in a sword in response of the trigger). The TKS prevents me from attacking with a ¾ SFM and he does manages to land a smasher. He opts to attack me down to 5, rather than keep a blocker for my SFM + sword. The draw trigger from sword helps me find both jailer and the 4th land I needed. I jail the smasher and he loses to the extra draws from monarch and sword.
- Game 2: He gets double early TKS after starting with spyglass on wasteland.
- Game 3: He starts with chalice and follows up with TKS on my SFM. He doesn’t take my two plows because of his chalice, but I topdeck a wisp. Turn 3, I’m forced to council a displacer, so only turn 4 can I wisp the chalice and use one of my plows. The next turn, plow + jailer take over the game despite being low on life.

R5: Bomberman 2-1
- Game 1: vial + double port keeps him out of the game.
- Game 2: My clock is too slow and I fail to find mana disruption. He can land the combo and draw his whole deck with a bauble. I should have mulled this.
- Game 3: Goes very, very long, with multiple Karns (scion and creator). He does not find the combo or lacks the mana for it, or is locked under my chalice on zero, but can go pretty dangerous with a mentor. After he plays a second mentor, I’m forced to attack with a stoneforge into a 2/2 construct to kill one of the mentors. I then manage to nerf the last mentor somewhat with deafening silence, yet to find more substance, I’m forced to use my jailer on a construct token (knowing that a mentor would come back as I can’t keep this monarch) to dig deeper. After he attacks to take back the monarch, I can use council to remove his last blocker, connect with jitte and kill the second mentor. He can strike back to get me down from 5 to 1 (no more due to deafening silence), but on the rebound I wipe all his creatures with jitte. My board is favored now, with active jitte and the monarch, but he topdecks a Karn Creator and goes for bridge, making it live by sacing a LED (ditching another Karn scion, which I had already revoked). He decides to blow up my chalice in his next turn (not enough mana for lattice, I think), allowing me to find a wisp and damage the Karn (but not kill it, as I can’t activate jitte). This does disable him from going for Lattice combo as the Karn would die in the process. With Karn at 3 again next turn, I’m in danger of getting latticed out now. Fortunately, with monarch, I managed to find my final two wisps. In turn 1 of turns, I cast wisp, attacking him down to 7, but forgetting to attack the Karn itself. Hence, I’m forced to cast the other wisp, targeting wisp, then wisp again, so that I can wisp his bridge again in his end step. In his turn, he uses cast out on my giver and attempts to Karn for a removal artifact, but I note that he can’t cast it due to deafening silence, so he scoops.

R6: Bant snow 1-2
- Game 1: I scoop as he threatens true-name with jitte and monarch. Jailer was one of the only spells I drew beyond vial and giver. This was a vial keep, but topdecks were poor.
- Game 2: He scoops quickly to an early sword of fire and ice he can’t answer. Start was giver into SFM.
- Game 3: He gets a turn 3 True-Name, then Oko, then Jitte. I can beat the latter two, but not while he has the stupid asocial fish. He even made a mockery out of it all by exchanging my elkskull for a food token.

R7: RGb Lands 1-2
- Game 1: He has a slow hand and I hurt him significantly with double wasteland and revoker on mox. I subsequently grind him out, despite a maze of ith slowing my clock.
- Game 2: He manages to develop his board through two rest in peace (one decayed). I scoop (possibly too early) as he lands field of the dead, while having 7 different lands and a thespian. There’s a chance I still could have taken the game off of the RIP, but a likely two zombies a turn is a tough clock to beat and I still needed to draw a white source to get my own clock going.
- Game 3: I keep a weak hand and he has a turn 1 mox, exploration loam, then turn 2 dredge, find tabernacle, play another exploration (I used leonin on the first one). This should have definitely been a mull, but lack of food and too many grinds hamper your decision-making. His start was probably only beatable with a surgical though.

[colo]

So where do we go from here? :^)

[Glass House]

So where do we go from here? :^)

Back to the Decks to Beat subforum? Lmao.

[Tylert]

I guess not immediately.
Especially if dice box is reluctant to update this section of the forum :)

I Wonder if we go back to Mother of runes instead of giver of runes in a world without wrenn and six. From what i read in this thread, it's not a given.

[colo]

I tried my hand at D&T again after a few months of slingling Phyrexian Dreadnoughts, with a slightly adapted Wu list:


1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Aether Vial
2 Epochrasite
1 Stonecloaker
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Flickerwisp
3 Geist of Saint Traft
3 Recruiter of the Guard
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Charming Prince
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Flooded Strand
2 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
3 Karakas
3 Plains
3 Tundra
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

SB:

3 Catacylsm
3 Council's Judgment
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Daze
1 Pithing Needle


My matchups were 4C Grixis + w Control (1-1), 4C Snow Miracles (0-2), Eldrazi Red Stompy (2-0), and UR Delver (post-board splashing G for Oko, Thief of Crowns). My conclusion, after losing all but one lost games (effectively) to an unchecked Oko is that this utterly stupid card must go :)

[Tylert]

Another tool for us:

https://i.redd.it/53l5qnb5gd941.png

Seems good, at least as a sideboard card (Target for enligthened tutor btw), but 1 toughness :(

[colo]

That's just not gonna cut it, I'm afraid.

[JDK]

Another tool for us:

https://i.redd.it/53l5qnb5gd941.png

Seems good, at least as a sideboard card (Target for enligthened tutor btw), but 1 toughness :(

Not sure you know this fringe DnT card called Phyrexian Revoker. :P

[Finn]

Revoker is hard to get right because you have to know the name of the planeswalker in advance, but ya know. That is what you do in DnT.

[easysantiago]

4-3 at the Dutch Open with mono white D&T. Only match-up that felt unwinnable was bant snow. True-name blade with Oko and a ton of basics is kind of stupid.

Lands (23):
6 Plains
4 Snow-Covered Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
2 Flagstones of Trokair

Creatures (26):
3 Giver of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Tomik, Distinguished Advokist
2 Charming Prince
3 Flickerwisp
2 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Mirran Crusader
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Palace Jailer

Other (12):
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Council's Judgment

Sideboard (15):
2 Rest in Peace
2 Council's Judgment
2 Chalice of the Void
2 Deafening Silence
2 Path to Exile
2 Cataclysm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Leonin Relic-Warder

First time playing with princes and they were awesome. Council's in the main didn't really do much.

R1: 2-0 against GW depths.
- Game 1, I get a quick giver + tomik.
- Game 2, I counter his ghost quarter by vialing in Tomik. He is squeezed for mana for the rest of the game, as he slows his own mox with ouphe, which I plow after playing my own revoker on mox (making my vial live again). When he finally goes for the combo to see if I have it, I had the wisp ready for a few turns already.

R2: 1-2 against Grixis delver.
- I lost game 1 to a double delver start with nothing but lands on my end. I actually somehow got to 6 plains and no spells before my puzzled opponent beat me to death. I should have mulled this (4 plains on 6, two 3-drops), but I think it would have been a mull to five and the massive mana flood would have cost me the game anyhow.
- Game 2, he got brainstorm-locked and I had double waste. He did actually side wrong because he saw nothing but plains game 1. Guess people really don’t expect d&t anymore.
- Game 3, I grind him down with double port. I lose in part to a greedy play of casting jitte, rather than using SFM, for tempo reasons, and in part because he has a blowout brazen follower to win the race, followed up with a bolt for lethal and a plague engineer for back-up (shrinking my crusader).

R3: Dredge 2-1
- Game 1: I almost manage to grind all his bridges and ichorids out, but just barely fail to stabilize due to missing two land drops.
- Game 2: I have a turn 2 RIP after a turn 1 vial. He has an end step nature’s claim, followed by looting + LED to get 2 zombies, hogaak and Iona on the table. I take care of Iona with Karakas, so he makes a huge grave-troll + casts Hogaak again, and doesn’t attack to keep his 3 bridges alive. I slam my second RIP, karakas hogaak and he scoops.
- Game 3: I have a surgical, but he has looting into discard thug and imp. So I wait, as he goes end step street wraith and draw step dredge. He fails to dredge any other dredgers. The next turn, I drop a revoker on LED and waste his land the turn after, locking him out of the game.

R4: White Eldrazi 2-1
- Game 1: He has a slow start, which allows me to play out my entire hand before his first TKS hits (SFM-ing in a sword in response of the trigger). The TKS prevents me from attacking with a ¾ SFM and he does manages to land a smasher. He opts to attack me down to 5, rather than keep a blocker for my SFM + sword. The draw trigger from sword helps me find both jailer and the 4th land I needed. I jail the smasher and he loses to the extra draws from monarch and sword.
- Game 2: He gets double early TKS after starting with spyglass on wasteland.
- Game 3: He starts with chalice and follows up with TKS on my SFM. He doesn’t take my two plows because of his chalice, but I topdeck a wisp. Turn 3, I’m forced to council a displacer, so only turn 4 can I wisp the chalice and use one of my plows. The next turn, plow + jailer take over the game despite being low on life.

R5: Bomberman 2-1
- Game 1: vial + double port keeps him out of the game.
- Game 2: My clock is too slow and I fail to find mana disruption. He can land the combo and draw his whole deck with a bauble. I should have mulled this.
- Game 3: Goes very, very long, with multiple Karns (scion and creator). He does not find the combo or lacks the mana for it, or is locked under my chalice on zero, but can go pretty dangerous with a mentor. After he plays a second mentor, I’m forced to attack with a stoneforge into a 2/2 construct to kill one of the mentors. I then manage to nerf the last mentor somewhat with deafening silence, yet to find more substance, I’m forced to use my jailer on a construct token (knowing that a mentor would come back as I can’t keep this monarch) to dig deeper. After he attacks to take back the monarch, I can use council to remove his last blocker, connect with jitte and kill the second mentor. He can strike back to get me down from 5 to 1 (no more due to deafening silence), but on the rebound I wipe all his creatures with jitte. My board is favored now, with active jitte and the monarch, but he topdecks a Karn Creator and goes for bridge, making it live by sacing a LED (ditching another Karn scion, which I had already revoked). He decides to blow up my chalice in his next turn (not enough mana for lattice, I think), allowing me to find a wisp and damage the Karn (but not kill it, as I can’t activate jitte). This does disable him from going for Lattice combo as the Karn would die in the process. With Karn at 3 again next turn, I’m in danger of getting latticed out now. Fortunately, with monarch, I managed to find my final two wisps. In turn 1 of turns, I cast wisp, attacking him down to 7, but forgetting to attack the Karn itself. Hence, I’m forced to cast the other wisp, targeting wisp, then wisp again, so that I can wisp his bridge again in his end step. In his turn, he uses cast out on my giver and attempts to Karn for a removal artifact, but I note that he can’t cast it due to deafening silence, so he scoops.

R6: Bant snow 1-2
- Game 1: I scoop as he threatens true-name with jitte and monarch. Jailer was one of the only spells I drew beyond vial and giver. This was a vial keep, but topdecks were poor.
- Game 2: He scoops quickly to an early sword of fire and ice he can’t answer. Start was giver into SFM.
- Game 3: He gets a turn 3 True-Name, then Oko, then Jitte. I can beat the latter two, but not while he has the stupid asocial fish. He even made a mockery out of it all by exchanging my elkskull for a food token.

R7: RGb Lands 1-2
- Game 1: He has a slow hand and I hurt him significantly with double wasteland and revoker on mox. I subsequently grind him out, despite a maze of ith slowing my clock.
- Game 2: He manages to develop his board through two rest in peace (one decayed). I scoop (possibly too early) as he lands field of the dead, while having 7 different lands and a thespian. There’s a chance I still could have taken the game off of the RIP, but a likely two zombies a turn is a tough clock to beat and I still needed to draw a white source to get my own clock going.
- Game 3: I keep a weak hand and he has a turn 1 mox, exploration loam, then turn 2 dredge, find tabernacle, play another exploration (I used leonin on the first one). This should have definitely been a mull, but lack of food and too many grinds hamper your decision-making. His start was probably only beatable with a surgical though.

Thanks for this recap!

[Finn]

I'm wondering why I do not see discussion about Hope of Guirapur. Has this card been vetted?

[aedemiel]

Why would we play this? What problem does it solve?

[Tylert]

New card:

Luminous broodmoth:

3/4 flying for 2WW
Whenever a creature without flying dies, return it to the battlefield with a flying counter.

Anti-Wrath.
COmbos with cataclysm.

on the expensive side thoguht for an effect that already exist (Selfless spirit).

[pettdan]

@Tylert: Selfless Spirit doesn't protect vs Cataclysm since it sacrifices. But I'm guessing not being able to tutor for this creature with Recruiter might prevent it from seeing play.

[Tylert]

@Tylert: Selfless Spirit doesn't protect vs Cataclysm since it sacrifices. But I'm guessing not being able to tutor for this creature with Recruiter might prevent it from seeing play.

Yeah.

There's this also:

Drannith Magistrate 1W
Human wizard.
Your opponent cannot cast spells anywhere than from his hand.
1/3

3 toughness and not a permanent remove :(

[Tylert]

and one better card:

Lurrus the dream den 1 {W/B}{W/B}
Legendary creature cat nightmare
Lifelink
During your turn you may cast one permanent spell with converted mana cost 2 or less from your graveyard.
3/2

[H]

and one better card:

Lurrus the dream den 1 {W/B}{W/B}
Legendary creature cat nightmare
Lifelink
During your turn you may cast one permanent spell with converted mana cost 2 or less from your graveyard.
3/2

Very interesting, since it can let you use and recast Remorseful Cleric, which might be good consider opposing Lurrus' and Uro (and the rest of the Graveyard shenanigans around today). Worth noting too that Recruiter finds either of those as well.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Not bad. Doesn't do much vs. StP and Terminus, but not horrible.

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[Tylert]

Just theory crafting with the new card:

I think this nightmare cat could be played as a companion in Death and taxes.
THe 3 cmc permanents are FLickerwisp (could be charming prince, even if it's not exactly the same card), Sword of fire and Ice and batterskull.
All the sideboard 3cmc+ cards are non permanents cards (Council, cataclysm, Gideon...).

I like the idea of having acces to this whenever I want to rebuy thalia (Or remorsfull cleric to hoose the opponent's graveyard as mentionned by H). Just need to figure what to do with the stoneforge package (We still have Jitte but we loose flexibility).
Any idea?

[Barook]

Very interesting, since it can let you use and recast Remorseful Cleric, which might be good consider opposing Lurrus' and Uro (and the rest of the Graveyard shenanigans around today). Worth noting too that Recruiter finds either of those as well.
Selfless Spirit is another card that comes into mind as it lets you faceroll with indestructible.

The most interesting option is probably Ballista recursion, though.

[colo]

I'm just kinda sad that we're not living in more civilized times, and General's Enforcer (https://scryfall.com/card/iko/188/generals-enforcer) can't have any kind of impact on Legacy decks any more :/

[Cire]

D&T list with Yorion recently got a decent result in a challenge

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-challenge-2020-05-18#avocadotoast_th_place

You know how D&T always gets new toys but never has the room - well . . . now it can play everything.

[Barook]

D&T list with Yorion recently got a decent result in a challenge

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-challenge-2020-05-18#avocadotoast_th_place

You know how D&T always gets new toys but never has the room - well . . . now it can play everything.
This list seems a tad bit too "basic" for my taste. It doesn't feel like it's really breaking Yorion the way other decks do.

The deck should be able to support Astrolabe with enough Snow Plains (maybe cutting some Flagstones, if necessary?). This gives you more draw with Yorion and can enable double white if you're stuck with colorless lands. It can also turn Flickerwisp into a cantrip.

I wonder how effective Flicker chains are with Yorion. Flickerwisp (and Charming Prince as flexible alternative) are pretty slow, as it takes two end steps to complete a cycle:

Play Yorion, flicker Flickerwisp, EoT return Flickerwips, flicker Yorion - EoT OP's turn Yorion returns, flicker Flickerwisp - EoT return Flickerwips, flicker Yorion - EoT OP's turn Yorion returns, flicker Flickerwisp etc.

However, if you run Restoration Angel, you can get Yorion triggers every other end step:

Play Yorion, flicker Angel, EoT return Angel, blink Yorion, flicker Angel - EoT OP's turn return Angel, blink Yorion, flicker Angel - EoT return Angel, blink Yorion, flicker Angel - EoT OP's turn return Angel, blink Yorion, flicker Angel etc.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

This list seems a tad bit too "basic" for my taste. It doesn't feel like it's really breaking Yorion the way other decks do.

The deck should be able to support Astrolabe with enough Snow Plains (maybe cutting some Flagstones, if necessary?). This gives you more draw with Yorion and can enable double white if you're stuck with colorless lands. It can also turn Flickerwisp into a cantrip.

I wonder how effective Flicker chains are with Yorion. Flickerwisp (and Charming Prince as flexible alternative) are pretty slow, as it takes two end steps to complete a cycle:

Play Yorion, flicker Flickerwisp, EoT return Flickerwips, flicker Yorion - EoT OP's turn Yorion returns, flicker Flickerwisp - EoT return Flickerwips, flicker Yorion - EoT OP's turn Yorion returns, flicker Flickerwisp etc.

However, if you run Restoration Angel, you can get Yorion triggers every other end step:

Play Yorion, flicker Angel, EoT return Angel, blink Yorion, flicker Angel - EoT OP's turn return Angel, blink Yorion, flicker Angel - EoT return Angel, blink Yorion, flicker Angel - EoT OP's turn return Angel, blink Yorion, flicker Angel etc.I already built a yorion list with a similar concept, but I used Charming Princes alongside Flickerwisp.

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[colo]

Needs more Blade Splicer, don't you think? Also, Epochrasite.

[studderingdave]

Archon of Emeria
2W
Creature - Archon
Flying
Players can only cast one spell each turn
Opponen'ts non basic lands ETB tapped

[Tylert]

I think the only card that could be in the 75 of D&T from Zendikar's rising is the counter matters creature 1/1 for 1W at the beginning on of combat phase, put a +1/+1 counter on target creature.
not sure thought, it's good vs fair decks mainly. So it's really meta dependant.

Edit: And apparition too, forgot about that one :)

[Reeplcheep]

Phil Gallagher 5-0 VOD with both the new cards: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DJ4KO1Tfcs

[Tylert]

Phil Gallagher 5-0 VOD with both the new cards: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DJ4KO1Tfcs

Aaaaahhhh.... called it!! :)

Apparition was for sure going to be a hit as a good permanent removal on legs. Luminarch aspirant I was less sure because it's good vs faire decks mainly. Glad to see Medea is still testing D&T out there !

[thefreakaccident]

Holy Sweet Necro Batman!

So, i've been trying to make a certain pet card of mine, Braids cabal minion, work for a little while now, and I believe it might actually slot into D&T pretty well.

Here's an esper brew i've been playing to mild success:

lands//24
3 karakas
3 cavern of souls
4 tundra
4 scrubland
2 flooded strand
2 marsh flats
2 arid mesa
4 wasteland

Creatures//25
4 mother of runes
4 thalia, guardian of thraben
4 stoneforge mystic
4 hullbreacher
3 braids, cabal minion
2 skyclave apparition
2 recruiter of the guard
1 phyrexian revoker
1 plague engineer

Artifacts//7
4 aether vial
1 batterskull
1 umezawa's jitte
1 sword of fire and ice

Instants//4
4 swords to plowshares

Sideboard//15
1 ethersworn canonist
1 opposition agent (probably shouldn't be in the list)
2 phyrexian revoker
2 plague engineer
1 sanctum prelate
1 skyclave apparition
2 deafening silence
2 flusterstorm
3 surgical extraction


So, i'm willing to admit that this deck's success so far could strictly be due to the power that is the core of Death and Taxes, however, I've been noticing moments of promise from both hullbreacher and Braids. Hullbreacher has, at least so far, been pretty nuts. Shutting off sylvan library from drawing extra cards vs green has been good, and shutting off cantrips has been even better. It also has flash without the need of a vial, which I feel is actually quite nice, being able to sneakily add to your board presence. The numbers overall are probably still far from perfect, but i'm rather enjoying the esper list and the sideboard options it opens up as well.

Braids might not be good, but she can close out games with a lock even if you don't have enough pressure on the board, which is appealing to me as well. I've always loved braids, and I think the synergies of mother of runes/karakas are quite stellar with her.

If anybody else would be willing to take a crack at some esper builds, I'd love to see them!

[Alx]

Holy Sweet Necro Batman!

So, i've been trying to make a certain pet card of mine, Braids cabal minion, work for a little while now, and I believe it might actually slot into D&T pretty well.

Here's an esper brew i've been playing to mild success:

lands//24
3 karakas
3 cavern of souls
4 tundra
4 scrubland
2 flooded strand
2 marsh flats
2 arid mesa
4 wasteland

Creatures//25
4 mother of runes
4 thalia, guardian of thraben
4 stoneforge mystic
4 hullbreacher
3 braids, cabal minion
2 skyclave apparition
2 recruiter of the guard
1 phyrexian revoker
1 plague engineer

Artifacts//7
4 aether vial
1 batterskull
1 umezawa's jitte
1 sword of fire and ice

Instants//4
4 swords to plowshares

Sideboard//15
1 ethersworn canonist
1 opposition agent (probably shouldn't be in the list)
2 phyrexian revoker
2 plague engineer
1 sanctum prelate
1 skyclave apparition
2 deafening silence
2 flusterstorm
3 surgical extraction


So, i'm willing to admit that this deck's success so far could strictly be due to the power that is the core of Death and Taxes, however, I've been noticing moments of promise from both hullbreacher and Braids. Hullbreacher has, at least so far, been pretty nuts. Shutting off sylvan library from drawing extra cards vs green has been good, and shutting off cantrips has been even better. It also has flash without the need of a vial, which I feel is actually quite nice, being able to sneakily add to your board presence. The numbers overall are probably still far from perfect, but i'm rather enjoying the esper list and the sideboard options it opens up as well.

Braids might not be good, but she can close out games with a lock even if you don't have enough pressure on the board, which is appealing to me as well. I've always loved braids, and I think the synergies of mother of runes/karakas are quite stellar with her.

If anybody else would be willing to take a crack at some esper builds, I'd love to see them!

Congrats on your success but using Hullbreacher when we already have Spirit of the Labyrinth (and it works with Recruiter of the Guard) doesn't seem to be worth of splashing blue for me.
Have you been able to play Braids many times? Was it a win-more card or did it solve certain matchups and situations for you?

[CRich3]

Holy Sweet Necro Batman!

So, i've been trying to make a certain pet card of mine, Braids cabal minion, work for a little while now, and I believe it might actually slot into D&T pretty well.

Here's an esper brew i've been playing to mild success:

lands//24
3 karakas
3 cavern of souls
4 tundra
4 scrubland
2 flooded strand
2 marsh flats
2 arid mesa
4 wasteland

Creatures//25
4 mother of runes
4 thalia, guardian of thraben
4 stoneforge mystic
4 hullbreacher
3 braids, cabal minion
2 skyclave apparition
2 recruiter of the guard
1 phyrexian revoker
1 plague engineer

Artifacts//7
4 aether vial
1 batterskull
1 umezawa's jitte
1 sword of fire and ice

Instants//4
4 swords to plowshares

Sideboard//15
1 ethersworn canonist
1 opposition agent (probably shouldn't be in the list)
2 phyrexian revoker
2 plague engineer
1 sanctum prelate
1 skyclave apparition
2 deafening silence
2 flusterstorm
3 surgical extraction


So, i'm willing to admit that this deck's success so far could strictly be due to the power that is the core of Death and Taxes, however, I've been noticing moments of promise from both hullbreacher and Braids. Hullbreacher has, at least so far, been pretty nuts. Shutting off sylvan library from drawing extra cards vs green has been good, and shutting off cantrips has been even better. It also has flash without the need of a vial, which I feel is actually quite nice, being able to sneakily add to your board presence. The numbers overall are probably still far from perfect, but i'm rather enjoying the esper list and the sideboard options it opens up as well.

Braids might not be good, but she can close out games with a lock even if you don't have enough pressure on the board, which is appealing to me as well. I've always loved braids, and I think the synergies of mother of runes/karakas are quite stellar with her.

If anybody else would be willing to take a crack at some esper builds, I'd love to see them!

I am fairly new to playing DnT, but I have played around a lot with Braids. If you want to use a DnT shell I think you should cut blue entirely. Drawing multiple braids is only good when you have vial on 4 so you can sac it to itself. Maybe cut one for another recruiter. Have you tried using a cataclysm DnT shell? Seems like a little better fit, especially with some hallowed spiritkeepers

[Reeplcheep]

Constructive criticism:

ThrabenU has an article for splashing in D&T. This is comparable to old lists splashing for pita and Kiran. You have nowhere near enough Black sources for braids, especially with 5! Different creature types.

I do think braids is powerful enough that it isn’t hopeless to brew. But Why did you consider d&t as the best home for braids? D&T doesn’t really generate enough random permanents to be worth playing a smokestack.

Both Rb painter and goblins are creature decks with aristocrats sub themes (derretti/welder/astrolabe and skirk/MWM/sling gang respectively). And they already are splashing black. Imo they would be much better homes for braids.

Hullbreacher is probably worse than spirit in a vial deck without draw or fow, not to mention screwing up your mana.

Edit: cutting Hullbreacher for spirit, revoker for apparition and maybe engineer for that haunt guy makes everything Kor or Human which improves your mana substantially. And lets you cut tundras for a few basics and fetches.

[Reeplcheep]

An incredibly insightful review by ThrabenU of Erin-relentless’ top8 matches. This is from his showcase win with D&T Sunday.

https://t.co/olFeKDSeJk?amp=1

[aedemiel]

Tested the deck for 3 matches. It felt really good. Having Sanctum Prelate back in the main was a breath against all the Arcanists around.

[index]

Hi guys, am i the only one who thinks that the recruiter/scyclave build has weakened the deck? I always had the feeling i'm running out of gas/answers and stuck with them in hand because it would them take to long to do something.
Tried a list without them and more stuff with a direct/longer lasting impact and it felt so strong and i never ran out of cards.

Maybe i'm totally wrong, whats your oppinion on that topic?

[Tylert]

An incredibly insightful review by ThrabenU of Erin-relentless’ top8 matches. This is from his showcase win with D&T Sunday.

https://t.co/olFeKDSeJk?amp=1

Really enjoyed it too.
To answer the critical question: Is silent clearing good or bad? The answer is yes, it is bad, you should allways play Horizon canopy over it.

[MightyPenguin007]

Really enjoyed it too.
To answer the critical question: Is silent clearing good or bad? The answer is yes, it is bad, you should allways play Horizon canopy over it.

In terms of how these cards operate, they’re mechanically identical in D&T. Perhaps an explanation of why Canopy is preferred over Clearing?

Unless you’re being sarcastic....unless...

https://media3.giphy.com/media/Fjr6v88OPk7U4/giphy.gif

[Alx]

Hi guys, am i the only one who thinks that the recruiter/scyclave build has weakened the deck? I always had the feeling i'm running out of gas/answers and stuck with them in hand because it would them take to long to do something.
Tried a list without them and more stuff with a direct/longer lasting impact and it felt so strong and i never ran out of cards.

Maybe i'm totally wrong, whats your oppinion on that topic?

Luminarch Aspirant is a great card to build around if you feel like that and want to take the proactive direction. If unanswered it can take over the board easily and enables some interesting stuff with other cards such as Mikaeus, the Lunarch.

[Clark Kant]

If the white evoke creature ends up being as powerful as Grief (the black evoke dude from MH2 that is part of a cycle), I think a D and T spinoff will emerge around abusing Ephermate with Skyclave, Recruiter, Spellbinder and the white Grief. Something like this...

Vaka Taxes aka. Blink Taxes


Blinkers
4 Ephemerate
4 Charming Prince
3-4 Flickerwisp

Blinkees
4 Elite Spellbinder
3-4 Skyclave Apparition
3-4 Recruiter of the Guard
1-3 White MH2 Mythic Evoker (Depending on how good she is)
1-2 Palace Jailer

Other
4 Aether Vial
3 Thalia
2-3 MoM
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Spirit of the Labrynth

4 Wasteland
2-4 Ancient Tomb (Depending on the cc and powerlevel of the White MH2 Evoke Dude)
16 Lands

Something along those lines could be very effective (until people start putting Torpor Orb into their sideboards to hate out the deck)

It's would be a more powerful, more ETB focused Death and Taxes.

The only flaw with the above approach is a lack of turn 1-2 plays, hence why I added Ancient Tomb. Turn 2 Ancient Tomb into Spellbinder or Recruiter are fantastic turn 2 plays that double as amazing blink targets on turn 3.

StP didn't seem needed in a deck with 4 Skyclave, 4 Spellbinder and 3-4 Recruiter to grab a Jailer. But you guys probably have some ideas on other turn 1-2 cards to add.

[Barook]

Let's not get ahead of ourselves here. Let's first wait what the actual card looks like. It could be total garbage, being white and all. :rolleyes:

[Clark Kant]

I doubt it would be total garbage. It's a mythic and one of the main cycles in MH2, and white generally gets the best ETB effects.

Any creature with an ETB effect that can be evoked out for 0 mana, and if blinked will give the ETB effect twice and leave the body around is going to be worth playing. At worst, it will be narrow and only be worth playing as a 1 of to tutor up with Recruiter in specific situations, but it would have to be extremely narrow to make 2 ETB effects and a free body for 0 mana when combined with any blink effect anything but a staple in the above list.

If it ends being awful, just swap it out with Stoneforge. Ephermating a Stoneforge in order to get all three equipment into your hand is useful when you're trying to go the aggro route.

The bigger point is that between Skyclave, Recruiter, Spellbinder and Jailer, there is now a critical mass of creatures needed to make an Ephermate variant worthwhile and quite possibly more powerful than classic D and T.

[Tylert]

White evoke creature is STP. very strong.

there is also a smothering tithe on legs that looks appealing (but it's 1/1).

[Clark Kant]

Yeah both are really powerful cards.

Free StP on a stick is insane.

That Ephermite list I posted above is 100% happening.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Esper Sentinel is going to see play. I don't know how it fits here but I'm sure it does. It's like Dark Confidant as far as value goes.

StP on legs is amazing. May be better than StP 3 and 4.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[Barook]

If the white evoke creature ends up being as powerful as Grief (the black evoke dude from MH2 that is part of a cycle), I think a D and T spinoff will emerge around abusing Ephermate with Skyclave, Recruiter, Spellbinder and the white Grief. Something like this...

Vaka Taxes aka. Blink Taxes


Blinkers
4 Ephemerate
4 Charming Prince
3-4 Flickerwisp

Blinkees
4 Elite Spellbinder
3-4 Skyclave Apparition
3-4 Recruiter of the Guard
1-3 White MH2 Mythic Evoker (Depending on how good she is)
1-2 Palace Jailer

Other
4 Aether Vial
3 Thalia
2-3 MoM
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Spirit of the Labrynth

4 Wasteland
2-4 Ancient Tomb (Depending on the cc and powerlevel of the White MH2 Evoke Dude)
16 Lands

Something along those lines could be very effective (until people start putting Torpor Orb into their sideboards to hate out the deck)

It's would be a more powerful, more ETB focused Death and Taxes.

The only flaw with the above approach is a lack of turn 1-2 plays, hence why I added Ancient Tomb. Turn 2 Ancient Tomb into Spellbinder or Recruiter are fantastic turn 2 plays that double as amazing blink targets on turn 3.

StP didn't seem needed in a deck with 4 Skyclave, 4 Spellbinder and 3-4 Recruiter to grab a Jailer. But you guys probably have some ideas on other turn 1-2 cards to add.
How about a list featuring Yorion and fully abusing ETB memes? With up to 12 Flicker effects, there's plenty of room to abuse Solitude and other ETB creatures. Even the new G/W Sword (instead of Feast of Famine in the 80 card lists) becomes quite feasible between ramping for Yorion and flickering an ETB creature. Between StP, Solitude and Apparation in combination with tons of blink effects, I just don't see any creature surviving in that hail of removal.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I'm interested in this. It's a little expensive, no flash to "counter" Plague Engineer, but I think it's worth discussing.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210529/c47e1f19eaa5c77843bafe39c36ea33b.jpg

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[the Thin White Duke]

I'm interested in this. It's a little expensive, no flash to "counter" Plague Engineer, but I think it's worth discussing.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210529/c47e1f19eaa5c77843bafe39c36ea33b.jpg

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This looks interesting, but we've had Celestial Crusader for years. Is this better?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Yeah, I know, and probably not but the Vigilance made me curious. If it costed 1WW and was a 1/2 it could be, but this is why I brought it up. 4 is a ton and not vial friendly. The only reason I don't play Always Watching is because it can't be vialed + thalia issues.

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[colo]

Nah, not good enough at "mana value" 4.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

This makes me pretty cranky. I've been waiting patiently for a Rest In Priest and they give it to black. Awesome - not.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210531/2389044b20f1946bbf7642a1e45749ad.jpg

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[Barook]

We got a RIP with legs for black and red. :rolleyes:

But I agree, WotC's current design philosophy is pretty terrible. Black and blue get asymmetrical hatebears with way better stats and combat abilities than white nowadays. And then they wonder why people say white sucks.

[Reeplcheep]

Esper Sentinel is going to see play. I don't know how it fits here but I'm sure it does. It's like Dark Confidant as far as value goes.

StP on legs is amazing. May be better than StP 3 and 4.

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I think it could make a hybrid between bw d&t and humans. The main reason humans has an atrocious manabase is for noble, and this is a tempo generating 1 drop that fits better with the go wide plan.

[Tylert]

Did not play much legacy this year, but I can see that lately, D&T is doing good...
What makes us so strong in this meta?

[Ataraxy]

Skyclave is OP !
And Ragavan does nothing to us, in fact, we can totaly ignore him : we have Karakas to bounce him, and he can't exile and play nothing but STP...

[redtwister]

Hi all, been a while cuz... 2020...

Brewing Yorion DnT and UW Humans, alongside kind of enjoying Standstill again.

I have to say, I love some of the new cards:
Solitude is an S-tier card.
Sanctifier en-Vec is an A-tier card because pro-R/B is fantastic because it stonewalls Monkey, ignores all the red (very important right now) and black (not especially relevant right now) removal, it's a bear, but RiP for R/B is actually super strong against Reanimator and Dredge.
Kaldra Compleat, if you can get it in, is an absolute monster of a card. Probably A-tier just because you will almost never hard cast it.
Esper Sentinel is some lovely tax and/or draw (it is better in humans and I don't think it fits in a 60 card list of DnT). Prolly B-tier in DnT, S-tier in Humans.
Skyclave Apparition is also obviously super nice, IMO S-tier.

DnT Yorion:
Creatures 38
4 Flickerwisp
4 Mother of Runes
4 Recruiter of the Guard
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Esper Sentinel
4 Skyclave Apparition
3 Solitude
3 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Sanctifier en-Vec
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Charming Prince

Instants 4
4 Swords to Plowshares

Artifacts 8
4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Kaldra Compleat
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Lands 30
2 Silent Cleansing
4 Karakas
16 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
1 Yorion, Sky Nomad
1 Containment Priest
2 Council's Judgment
2 Deafening Silence
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Peacekeeper
2 Rest in Peace
3 Surgical Extraction

You could tinker with this, especially the SB, but I'm excited by it. It might be land-light, drop a Sanctifier and an Esper Sentinel main, add 2 plains.

UW Humans I have been working, which is pretty DnT-ish. It's best feature is the density of CMC1 and 2. You almost next take Vial off of 2, you have 16 1 and 2 drops, 4 CMC 3 and Solitude.
Creatures 35
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Esper Sentinel
4 Mother of Runes
4 Meddling Mage
2 Sanctifier en-Vec
2 Charming Prince
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
2 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Skyclave Apparition
3 Solitude

Lands 21
5 Plains
2 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Karakas
1 Silent Clearing
3 Wasteland

Artifacts 4
4 Aether Vial

Sideboard
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Palace Jailer
2 Skyclave Apparition
1 Sanctifier en-Vec
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Orzhov Pontiff

[Barbed Blightning]

Hi all, been a while cuz... 2020...

Brewing Yorion DnT and UW Humans, alongside kind of enjoying Standstill again.

I have to say, I love some of the new cards:
Solitude is an S-tier card.
Sanctifier en-Vec is an A-tier card because pro-R/B is fantastic because it stonewalls Monkey, ignores all the red (very important right now) and black (not especially relevant right now) removal, it's a bear, but RiP for R/B is actually super strong against Reanimator and Dredge.
Kaldra Compleat, if you can get it in, is an absolute monster of a card. Probably A-tier just because you will almost never hard cast it.
Esper Sentinel is some lovely tax and/or draw (it is better in humans and I don't think it fits in a 60 card list of DnT). Prolly B-tier in DnT, S-tier in Humans.
Skyclave Apparition is also obviously super nice, IMO S-tier.

DnT Yorion:
Creatures 38
4 Flickerwisp
4 Mother of Runes
4 Recruiter of the Guard
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Esper Sentinel
4 Skyclave Apparition
3 Solitude
3 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Sanctifier en-Vec
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Charming Prince

Instants 4
4 Swords to Plowshares

Artifacts 8
4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Kaldra Compleat
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Lands 30
2 Silent Cleansing
4 Karakas
16 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
1 Yorion, Sky Nomad
1 Containment Priest
2 Council's Judgment
2 Deafening Silence
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Peacekeeper
2 Rest in Peace
3 Surgical Extraction


Looks pretty solid to me. Is the jury still out on Yorion vs "Normal" D&T? I like the extra long-game juice the Noodle can give us, but finding good "filler" to round the list out is pretty tough. With this list I almost want to cut some Sentinels and add Givers, or maybe Archon of Emeria despite the nonbo with Recruiter.

[Laser Brains]

I've had a net decked build of this together for about a year now. I'm not a super experienced D&T player but I have a decent grasp on how it works and matchups. Mostly I have it together to test my brews against with my play buddy. Recently I've wanted to update it and have grown interested in mastering it. So the question that I have for you D&T masters is: Why is Flagstones of Trokair in so many builds? Is it for a sideboarded Cataclysm or something of that nature?

Kaldra is insane, but has anyone tested Esper Sentinel yet? I ran two main deck today and was feeling like they were great! It feels like the deck needs more one drops for tempo. Most D&T decks only run 4x Vial and 4x Mom for first turn "must counter" / "must remove" spells. 2x Esper Sentinel seems to fill that gap and bring it's first turn "must counter" / "must remove" spells up to 10.

[Barbed Blightning]

I've had a net decked build of this together for about a year now. I'm not a super experienced D&T player but I have a decent grasp on how it works and matchups. Mostly I have it together to test my brews against with my play buddy. Recently I've wanted to update it and have grown interested in mastering it. So the question that I have for you D&T masters is: Why is Flagstones of Trokair in so many builds? Is it for a sideboarded Cataclysm or something of that nature?

Kaldra is insane, but has anyone tested Esper Sentinel yet? I ran two main deck today and was feeling like they were great! It feels like the deck needs more one drops for tempo. Most D&T decks only run 4x Vial and 4x Mom for first turn "must counter" / "must remove" spells. 2x Esper Sentinel seems to fill that gap and bring it's first turn "must counter" / "must remove" spells up to 10.

Flagstones is 100% "free" value when you play Cataclysm. It's also decent against the mirror if they decide to bring it in against you.

Sentinel is just ok in my experience. The main issue is that it's not truly oppressive (like, say, Spirit of the Labyrinth), nor can it make up for it by being great in combat (e.g. Thalia). It's not a terrible card, but the deck doesn't really have the slots to dedicate to cards that are "not terrible," if that makes sense.

Of course, if you're playing a Yorion build you have plenty of slots for Sentinel to fit, like redtwister's list above.

[colo]

I've never actually tried a Yorion build (and I have NO idea what the current meta looks like, to pile on on top of that de facto disqualification for giving advice ;)), but with a maindeck with that many cards, I would try to widen the toolbox approach the playset of Recruiter of the Guard enables. Cards (imho and off the top of my MtG-rusty head) to consider:


Epochrasite
Leonin Arbiter
Aven Mindcensor
Ethersworn Canonist
Palace Jailer


I have kind of a hard time accepting four pieces of equipment in the main - do Kaldra Compleat and Batterskull really have a place in there together?

[Laser Brains]

Flagstones is 100% "free" value when you play Cataclysm. It's also decent against the mirror if they decide to bring it in against you.

Sentinel is just ok in my experience. The main issue is that it's not truly oppressive (like, say, Spirit of the Labyrinth), nor can it make up for it by being great in combat (e.g. Thalia). It's not a terrible card, but the deck doesn't really have the slots to dedicate to cards that are "not terrible," if that makes sense.

Of course, if you're playing a Yorion build you have plenty of slots for Sentinel to fit, like redtwister's list above.

Good to know! Thank you! I'm going to keep rockin Esper Sentinel for the time being though. He's not great late game but he fits the curve and helps those opening hands. Especially against combo.

The Yorion build is very tempting. My only gripe is consistency, especially when you really need Vial opening hand.

[Tylert]

I have kind of a hard time accepting four pieces of equipment in the main - do Kaldra Compleat and Batterskull really have a place in there together?

that's a very good question and I was asking myself the same thing... Kaldra seems way better when the opponent can't do anything to the germ. But after playing with battskull for years it has allways been very good to be able to rebuy it and put it back into play with mystic. My opinion would be to play batterskull and not switch to kaldra and not play two to not clog your hand with expensive equipements when you don't draw stoneforge. But I didn't play enough this year (and the results seems to shoaw that playing 4 artifacts id ok).

Any other opinions on this?

[Barbed Blightning]

that's a very good question and I was asking myself the same thing... Kaldra seems way better when the opponent can't do anything to the germ. But after playing with battskull for years it has allways been very good to be able to rebuy it and put it back into play with mystic. My opinion would be to play batterskull and not switch to kaldra and not play two to not clog your hand with expensive equipements when you don't draw stoneforge. But I didn't play enough this year (and the results seems to shoaw that playing 4 artifacts id ok).

Any other opinions on this?

I kinda like Kaldra in the board. Real question is what matches you're bringing it in against. Some decks like Goblins and Burn obviously have a hard time against it, but we're already pretty favored there. There's the Delver family of decks, and Ninjas too; however our current equips are already fire in those MUs.
Beyond those, you have a ton of decks out there running StP as their main removal (an obvious nonbo for Kaldra) and of course combo. Kaldra is good for racing against the latter, but depending on the matchup I'll cut SFM and equipment anyway, soo... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I think for Yorion builds, Kaldra is a safe addition. You have the slots and you'll probably want an extra equipment just to increase your chances of drawing into another. Plus Yorion can always reset Kaldra, too. For vanilla 60s, though, only results can actually tell. All I know for certain is that Kaldra doesn't supersede Skull, Jitte or SoFI. They are a mix of protection, removal and stabilizers this deck needs to round out the game-plan.

[Sella]

All I know for certain is that Kaldra doesn't supersede Skull, Jitte or SoFI. They are a mix of protection, removal and stabilizers this deck needs to round out the game-plan.

huh. i've seen a lot of people cut SoFi for Kaldra in 60-card lists. although im not completely sold on it myself esp. since i havent really been able to do much playtesting

[redtwister]

@Barbed Blightning
Yeah, I dropped the Esper Sentinels and am running basically what the top Yorion lists run right now, though I love my Sanctifier en-Vec main and I'm built a bit for my locals. Pro-Red and graveyard hate baked into a creature is very good.

I still think the Sentinel is great in Humans, but it has a completely different set of possibilities, as light denial, draw, as a pump and possibly getting pumped. In DnT, it was a bit lackluster.

Running the Yorion officially at my locals tonight.

Cheers

[Finn]

@Barbed Blightning
Yeah, I dropped the Esper Sentinels and am running basically what the top Yorion lists run right now, though I love my Sanctifier en-Vec main and I'm built a bit for my locals. Pro-Red and graveyard hate baked into a creature is very good.

I still think the Sentinel is great in Humans, but it has a completely different set of possibilities, as light denial, draw, as a pump and possibly getting pumped. In DnT, it was a bit lackluster.

Running the Yorion officially at my locals tonight.

Cheers

This surprises me. I figured it would be a turn 1 bomb against anything with blue. Do you feel that you tested it enough?

[JDK]

This surprises me. I figured it would be a turn 1 bomb against anything with blue. Do you feel that you tested it enough?

Of course it is, but do you need more game against blue, especially with Yorion? I don't think so. Plus, slots are pretty tight.

Also, play Kaldra. It is just that good.

[Tylert]

gonna (finally) play in a live legacy tournament since... i don't remember when was my last one :)
I'm not going to play yorion DT, but would like some info on what should be the flexible slots in the classic one.
what should i be playing? considering the decks to beat probably?

[AmuletOfQuoz]

Just managed my first MTGO trophy. Played 60 card DnT with Anointed Peacekeeper. That guy is boss.

2-0 vs jstancikiii on Show and Tell
2-0 vs Wiltron92 on Madness
2-0 vs Samu_27 on U/B Arakocra Sneak
2-0 vs EronRelentless on Elves
2-1 vs rikimaru6 on 5C Changelings

[the Thin White Duke]

Just managed my first MTGO trophy. Played 60 card DnT with Anointed Peacekeeper. That guy is boss.

A 60 card list! I'd like to see that. How many Anointed Peacekeepers did you run?

[AmuletOfQuoz]

2 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Eiganjo, Seat of the Empire
3 Karakas
9 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port

4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Archivist of Oghma
4 Flickerwisp
2 Anointed Peacekeeper
1 Skyclave Apparition
2 Solitude

4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Lion Sash
1 Batterskull
1 Kaldra Compleat

Sideboard:
2 Cataclysm
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
2 Rest in Peace
1 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Deafening Silence
1 Sanctum Prelate
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Solitude

[Reeplcheep]

In what situations did you feel peacekeeper excelled? I was interested in it for wb humans as the toughness 3 is an upside rather than a downside.

[AmuletOfQuoz]

In what situations did you feel peacekeeper excelled? I was interested in it for wb humans as the toughness 3 is an upside rather than a downside.

I've named Thassa's Oracle, Show and Tell, Elvish Reclaimer, Lightning Bolt, Minsc and Boo, Urza's Saga, Aether Vial, etc. It's never dead. It lets you name the thing that you loose to, not necessarily what's in their hand or on the battlefield. Sometimes just slowing them down for a turn or two is enough. 3/3 is relevant. Vigilance is relevant. Also, it's "as" it enters the battlefield, not "when." It just happens. Nothing to respond to if it hits play. It's great to vial it in during their draw step.

[Reeplcheep]

So basically the flexibility of being a weak revoker or a weak meddling mage + better body is worth the extra cost?

[AmuletOfQuoz]

So basically the flexibility of being a weak revoker or a weak meddling mage + better body is worth the extra cost?

Also, being able to look at your opponent's hand is good.

[Tylert]

Not a lot of discussions those days.

Is samwize the nuts? I see it poping in a lot of lists?
Also, what are you guys playing to fight the orcish bowmaster menace? except playing it yourself :)

[Airwave]

Not a lot of discussions those days.

Is samwize the nuts? I see it poping in a lot of lists?
Also, what are you guys playing to fight the orcish bowmaster menace? except playing it yourself :)

Well I dropped Palace Jailer... :laugh:

Almost no decks left without Bowmasters these days...

I see people choosing to drop Yorion sometimes as well.. what do you think is the better choice?

[Tylert]

Well I dropped Palace Jailer... :laugh:

Almost no decks left without Bowmasters these days...

I see people choosing to drop Yorion sometimes as well.. what do you think is the better choice?

Yorion, is still good no?
I ended up keeping 1 palace jailer in the side.
I'm still playing classic D&T.

[akaleth]

There hasn't been a lot of discussion here lately. So, in case anyone comes here looking for help, I just posted a guide to playing D&T at Eternal Weekend on my Patreon. It includes four potential lists (mono-white, mono-white with Urza's Saga, BW, and BWg splashing Gaddock Teeg, the latter of which is my list of choice), and sideboard guides for each, plus blurbs about a whopping 27 matchups you can expect to play.

https://www.patreon.com/posts/death-and-taxes-93027699