[Deck] Death and Taxes

[Finn]

The D+T mirror is a pretty big concern on Magic Online. If it is not because of this in particular, I would just call it general nubery.

[Salogy]

Stilllmoon is also good vs any deck with StP and no bolts, outside of a sac,minus or red effects , he isnt going anywhere. He can block Iona,Sphinx of the Steel,RWM,Stalker,Pridemage and KotR. I see it as a awesome meta main deck inclusion when you expect to see 4-5 other DnT decks in a 20 man field. I have seen Stillmoon used a lot during std season where BW tokens was a deck to beat, TUS actually ran it into like a dozen finishes over the course of 2 weeks and claimed it was almost all on the back of Stillmoon on mirrors.

I dislike Stillmoon in the deck because it's main role is blocking or squeezing damage in. I win the mirror with more fliers and equipment. At a cmc of 3, this critter is a big mana sink. It's true stillmoon deals with those mentioned creatures but generally I am not concerned with any of those except Kotr.

Yes, stillmoon was a huge pain when it was standard legal. From my testing, equipment is more important in the mirror and equipment deals with Stillmoon Cavalier.

[menace13]

I dislike Stillmoon in the deck because it's main role is blocking or squeezing damage in. I win the mirror with more fliers and equipment. At a cmc of 3, this critter is a big mana sink. It's true stillmoon deals with those mentioned creatures but generally I am not concerned with any of those except Kotr.

Yes, stillmoon was a huge pain when it was standard legal. From my testing, equipment is more important in the mirror and equipment deals with Stillmoon Cavalier.

Stillmoon flys too and 1st strikes, getting jitt counters against that thing is nigh impossible for DnT. The only thing that gets past him is someone equipped with SOLS or SOFI giving it +2/+2 pushing it out of 2/1 3/1 range in the mirror, which is probably a long way to game over unless you've equips on Stillmoon that trumps his dude and equip.

[Penguinizer]

I recently played a few games against control that utilized Powder Keg recursion. It made several things harder, for one, repeatedly exploding my Vials made it harder to play through the control. What methods should I use to hinder it?

Siding in Relic of Progenitus doesn't seem like a good idea, and Oblivion Ring is likely to be countered immediately. The same could also be asked of Pernicious Deed.

[Salogy]

I recently played a few games against control that utilized Powder Keg recursion. It made several things harder, for one, repeatedly exploding my Vials made it harder to play through the control. What methods should I use to hinder it?

Siding in Relic of Progenitus doesn't seem like a good idea, and Oblivion Ring is likely to be countered immediately. The same could also be asked of Pernicious Deed.

You should pick a card based on how your opponent is recurring the Powder Keg. I want to say you should side in Pithing Needles but that does not always work. Needle has been very useful vs deeds but Kegs are faster.

Aura of Silence has a cmc of 3 and works well in the first few turns to tax artifacts.

I remember using Stonecloaker a year ago to stop recurring EEs. Stonecloaker is not very good right now but does the job in a flash.

[AggroSteve]

i'm as well using stonecloaker again, he is not the top card for the deck but he is extremely good against decks which recurr anything, i beat aggroloam for example with stonecloaker alone by simply removing all loams and cycle lands, and making goyf shrink little by little helps a lot too

[Tanarin]

Well 3 questions:

1> What colors is this deck exactly, that would help answer the other two questions I will have?

2> What exactly is he using to recur the Kegs?

3> Have you tried using Wheel of Sun and Moon or some other method of locking out his yard that is not Crypt/relic?

[Penguinizer]

1:It was mono-blue control with a black and a white splash for cards I didn't see, possible Extirpate from the SB.

2:Academy Ruins. Wasteland would have helped but I never drew one in time.

3: I don't have the tutor-toolbox SB, so no Wheel of the sun and moon. Resolving a jötun grunt didn't work either because my vials were exploded and both ate counters.

I believe this was a case of me not knowing the matchup at all and sideboarding incorrectly.

[Vacrix]

I don't have the tutor-toolbox SB
Is this on account of you not having the cards to play the toolbox or you like the oldschool SB plan better? I've had much more luck with an Etutor plan than with anything else.

[Penguinizer]

I only have one enlightened tutor, and I haven't gotten around to getting 2 more. I also would rather get Jittes, Swords, Mystics and Wastelands as well. I've been borrowing them so far.

[Joe_C]

This is what I have been playing online and doing well with over the past few weeks:

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
11 [IA] Plains (2)
4 [LG] Karakas
3 [TE] Wasteland
4 [MM] Rishadan Port

// Creatures
3 [CS] Jotun Grunt
4 [UL] Mother of Runes
4 [CHP] Serra Avenger
3 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
3 [TSP] Mangara of Corondor
4 [EVE] Flickerwisp
3 [LRW] Goldmeadow Harrier

// Spells
1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
1 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow
4 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
3 [LRW] Oblivion Ring

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 4 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [SHM] Wheel of Sun and Moon
SB: 3 [PS] Orim's Chant
SB: 2 [SHM] Runed Halo
SB: 3 [WL] Tariff


Of course the SB is subject to change, but with alot of people playing BANT and New Horizons in my area the Harriers are really manning up for me lately. He has been drawing counter quite often. Tariff seems promising, just being a mana cheaper than retribution of the meek makes life a little easier

[Finn]

Drawing counters is always a good sign - especially for a 1-mana spell. Well done, sir.

[LegacyDan]

Right, I love seeing the looks on the other persons face see a Harrier get dropped. I LOVE the look even more when you can see them thinking on countering it, its just GREAT.

[GooNaa]

Hi everybody,

just one question. Is this thread only for discussion of the mono white D&T? Since i know some lists splash green (mainly for Gaddock Teeg) i was curious if this is the right place to discuss.

[overseer1234]

Hi everybody,

just one question. Is this thread only for discussion of the mono white D&T? Since i know some lists splash green (mainly for Gaddock Teeg) i was curious if this is the right place to discuss.

I suppose it's fine here, but honestly when you are splashing green annyway wouldn't you also start playing stuff like:
goyf (I mean: you ARE playing green)
qasali pridemage (hell yeah)
knight of the reliquari (comes with the option of tutoring up your karakas, and other utility land/toolbox)

The problem here is that you just end up with GW midrange agro, or GW survival in the end...

[menace13]

I suppose it's fine here, but honestly when you are splashing green annyway wouldn't you also start playing stuff like:
goyf (I mean: you ARE playing green)
qasali pridemage (hell yeah)
knight of the reliquari (comes with the option of tutoring up your karakas, and other utility land/toolbox)

The problem here is that you just end up with GW midrange agro, or GW survival in the end...

Or Till Micheler's Living Taxes list up on deckcheck, has top 8'd 4 times past year 2 of those in 40+ man fields.

[CleverPetriDish]

I suppose it's fine here, but honestly when you are splashing green annyway wouldn't you also start playing stuff like:
goyf (I mean: you ARE playing green)
qasali pridemage (hell yeah)
knight of the reliquari (comes with the option of tutoring up your karakas, and other utility land/toolbox)

The problem here is that you just end up with GW midrange agro, or GW survival in the end... Entirely true. Plus, I have never understood the value of adding Living Wish to this deck. Why this deck instead of, say Counterbalance Threshold? Now, I have read people like Finn mention that Qasali Pridemage and Gaddock Teeg would be great additions to the deck if they were only white. I think I would replace Oblivion Rings with Pridemages. Teeg might only be sb. I don't know about Tarmogoyf but you have to test it since it is Prince Tarmo we are talking about. The question you have to ask is "Is it worth it?"

GooNaa, Im thinking that if you want to casually move this discussion to the benefits of splashing green (lo and behold, it is already begun) this is the place for it. But if anyone would like to post the merits of green as a tested and independent deck a thread in New and Dev is necessary.

[Joe_C]

Im not so sure a white pridemage would be the best bet for the deck... Oring, although sometimes lacking, is a necessary evil in the deck. The times when tricks with vial/flickerwisp actually come up are going to put you ahead in the game, its the same with mangara/karakas, the combo doesnt always come up, it may not even be needed to win... ever, but those times when it saves your ass, makes it worth running..

Im not sure about you guys, but I remove ALOT of creatures with oblivion ring, losing it to run a "pridemage" could be risky business, if we ever see a card like that for mono white. Aside from the exalted side, there are creature options to remove artifacts and enchantments

[GooNaa]

Now after my first question a real post with content.

I am lucky to have a weekly Legacy tournament in town, with quiet some good players but also some beginners and inexperienced players. The number of players always is between 20 and 40. Nearly all of them play competitive decks.
After some tounaments where i played each time a different deck (ANT, Belcher, Faeries with all kind of splashes) with not much success i tried mono white D&T in the last 3 tournaments.

First tounament (http://pmtg-forum.de/wbb2/thread.php?threadid=3752) went 5-0-1 finishing first
2-0 Merfolk
1-1-1 Zoo (went to time with advantages on my side)
2-1 Belcher
2-1 Canadian Thresh
2-0 Dragon Stompy
2-1 Dredge

Second tournament (http://pmtg-forum.de/wbb2/thread.php?threadid=3715) 4-1-0 finishing third
2-0 Merfolk
2-0 UW tempo
1-2 Canadian Thresh
2-X unknown opponent
2-0 Eva Green

Third tournament (http://pmtg-forum.de/wbb2/thread.php?threadid=3716) 5-1-0 finishing second
2-0 Zoo
2-1 UR Dreadstill
2-0 Zoo
2-1 Merfolk
0-2 UW Standstill
2-0 Bant Survival (Iona)

Decklist can be found through the tounament links (it is a german forum).

During the tounaments most of my opponents did not know how to play against D&T and made several mistakes or bad plays. Mostly not playing around Wing Shards but also things like
- playing Firespout without tapping a green mana (although possible)
- opponent had an active jitte with two counters and did not used them in response to me activating SFM ability although he knew i had a jitte in hand
- Bolting Mangara with not seeing that there is an active Karakas

So i do not over value the total result of 14-2-1.

Finally my experiences so far.
- Benevolent Bodyguard (played them as Mothers 5 and 6 but they feel a bit underpowered)
- Mother (definitive 4 of for the deck)
- Serra (would not play less then 4)
- Jotun (great creature stops attacks and gives you the time to get a creature equipped and swinging)
- Flickerwisp (so many usages and the card that made me play the deck in the beginning - just like it)
- Mangara (2 are enough for me - either felt like win more or was just a bad creature that died or had to chump block - you want to draw them only in the late game)
- Rishadan Port (so far like it more than wasteland)
- karakas (for me three is the optimal number so far, always seem to draw 2 if i play 4 of them)
- Wing Shards (so far best Sideboard card - surprised so many opponents - i guess that will change in the next tournaments)

Cards i want to test in the next tournaments
- Brave the elements (could be 5th Mother and i just really liked them in Standard)
- Elspeth (might be too expensive but an answer to humility)
- Gaddock Teeg (think he is much stronger than canonist and he can be bounced with karakas with Mother-protection possible game over for some decks)

thats it for now.

[Penguinizer]

I am going to be playing in a Legacy tournament several weeks from now. I have no idea about the meta, but in the local tourneys I've been to, it's been rather diverse. I am going to be running a 2-1 MB SB split of Burrenton Forgetender or Goldmeadow Harrier, which one of these would be better?

[unicoerner]

Can anyone give me a link, where i can read about all the interaction this deck offers and how they work?

[Penguinizer]

The main interaction is between Mangara and Karakas. You can tap Mangara and target your opponent's permanent, then while retaining priority (note. Important), use Karakas to return Mangara to your hand. As Mangara is removed as a part of the effect and the target is still legal, the target permanent is removed while Mangara is returned to your hand. You can accomplish the same with Aether Vial at 3 and a flickerwisp. To do this you must do as before, but instead of using Karakas's ability you vial in Flickerwisp and use it to remove Mangara until end of turn.

You can also use Flickerwisp and Vial along with Oblivion Ring to remove one non-land permanent permanently, and another with the way O-ring usually works. To do this, you must cast Oblivion ring. Assuming it resolves (note, you do not have to target until it has resolved), place the first trigger on the stack targeting your first permanent of choice. Retain priority and Vial in Flickerwisp. Use Flickerwisp to remove Oblivion Ring until end of turn. Because Oblivion Ring leaves play, the second trigger is put on the stack. Because the first triggers has yet to resolve, nothing is returned. The first trigger is then resolved, and the non-land permanent is removed. At the end of turn, Oblivion Ring is returned to play, and the triggers work as normal. Because the Oblivion Ring is treated as a separate entity, when it leaves play, the first non-land permanent is not returned.

Another synergy is between Oblivion Ring/Runed Halo/Stoneforge Mystic/Pithing Needle. You can use Flickerwisp to change their target or get another permanent. You can also use Flickewisp to temporarily remove blockers, attackers, and pesky enchantments and artifacts.

Mother of Runes protects your creatures from removal, and can herself block non-tramply beaters. Stoneforge Mystic lets you play a variety of equipment instead of just jitte. It lets you grab protection from relevant colors in the form of Sword of Fire and Ice or Sword of Light and Shadow. Flickerwisp, Serra Avenger and Jötun Grunt make solid beatsticks. Grunt also has the benefit of being able to shrink goyfs and to hinder dredge.

Cards like Goldmeadow Harrier and Burrenton Forgetender are meta-calls. If your meta has a lot of Zoo, Sligh, Goblins, Burn or Dredge, Burrenton Forgetender assists in those matchups. Goldmeadow Harrier is good in other matchups. The flexibility allows for a lot of meta-specific choices.

These are some of the things that popped into my head. I believe that there is a thread on mtgsalvation with an older build and some info on the interactions.

[CleverPetriDish]

Still up to date and a nice description of interactions

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=50057

[unicoerner]

IS there a way to keep the Forgetender in play?
For all our n1 tricks we need Vial+Flicker or Karakas and Mangara?

[Penguinizer]

For a lot, yes. As for Forgetender, you can use Sword of Light and Shadow to re-use it. It's one of the ways we can deal with progenitus, and if it eats up a FoW, that's always nice.

[SolonJhee]

Just want to do a small update with a tournament I played in last night. 31 players, 5 rounds cut to top 8.

I played the standard D+T list with Harriers in instead of BFTs. SB was stock as well, though I'm definitely changing that since I'll be playing more legacy events soon enough.

R1 I played against Master Shake (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/member.php?4755-Master-Shake) playing u/w Thopter Foundry, at least I think that's what it was.

G1 I won the die roll and put out Vial at one and he only played about 3 islands and a Counterbalance before conceding. Since I didn't know what he was playing (thought it was maybe Dreadstill), I sided in a singleton E. Tutor and two Runed Halos.

G2 I kept a hand with the lone E. Tutor in it, and he proceeded to play 3 E.Tutors, fetching Seat of the Synod, Thopter Foundry, and Sword of the Meek in that order. When he tapped out to play Sword, I E. Tutored for O-ring and O-ring'd his Foundry, then had an active Jitte and that was pretty much game.

-----

R2 I played the most annoying kid in the shop, obviously. I'd go into it more but it really adds nothing, but I already know he's playing Reanimator, and he is very loud and honest with his mannerisms. If he looks at his hand and says 'This hand doesn't do much', I know he has a weak hand, similarly when he Brainstorms and says 'these cards suck' I know they are all bad and he's not mindgaming me.

G1 I mull to 5 just to get a Karakas, and he gets Iona into play on T2 and almost doesn't name white because he has no idea what I'm playing (he only saw Wasteland then Plains). He was thinking I was playing Zoo outloud, and probably would have named something irrelevant, but a kid sitting next to us pointed out that Zoo doesn't run Wastelands (we told that kid later to not speak during matches). I bounced his Iona and won easily.

G2 I sided in the package, E. Tutors, Halos, though I think I forgot to not side the Wing Shards in, which I should have. I had to mull to 6 and I kept a hand with no hate hoping he'd stupidly get a Sphinx of the Steel Wind and obviously he played right and got the T3 Inkwell. We didn't stand a chance.

G3 I kept a hand with an E. Tutor, Vial, one Plains, and a bunch of cards like Grunt. He had T2 Inkwell again, and we didn't draw our second land obviously, though I Vialed on one anyways. He played Inkwell and got in 2 attacks before I was able to triple block it to kill it. Then he slammed down Archangel and was trash talking. I put down two Runed Halos by now naming both Inkwell and Archangel. Note I didn't have a Karakas but he didn't even bother. This game went on for eternity as I drew ALL my Ports, Wastelands, Swords, and cards that just don't do anything against him, while drawing no creatures. He eventually had me at 13 and mised an Echoing Truth (didn't know he ran that) for my Halos, and got an attack in. I went to reply a Halo (only had 3 white sources) and he Forced it, pitching another Force. He got me down to 3 before I got the other Halo back in and the game went back and forth while I drew nothing to kill the Archangel. He eventually topdecked Iona but I had an Avenger with MoR active to block, though I topdecked Karakas to bounce his Iona, swing and kill his ArchAngel and finally win.

-----

R3 I know what I'm playing because he sat next to me the previous round. He's playing bant with Survival of the Fittest.

G1 I kept him off lands and Wasted his other lands, while eventually just gaining CA and beating him with equipment. I didn't really know the point of Survival but it was just to get good creatures out. Somehow I kept thinking he was going to cheat something into play. I sided in Wheel, Relic, and Wing Shards, though I later learned that Wheel is pointless when it puts Survival targets back in his library.

G2 Went almost to time, a very long time. He played a Rhox War Monk on 3, and then another one on 4, and I couldn't draw removal. He wasted his removal to kill my Harriers, but they bought me enough time to finally draw into a removal for one of the War Monks. This went on for a very long time and he got me to under 10 with War Monk attacks while I drew nothing. I kept him off lands long enough for him not to bother with Survival until really late. I also had Relic early and he had no GY the whole game, so he eventually activated Survival to get Meddling Mage pitching Goyf. I finally managed to play a threat and he had to force and get rid of MM. This went on until he found another MM to sac to survival for Squee, which eventually made me blow up the relic when he pitched Squee. That Rhox War Monk kept beating me until I found some Stoneforge Mystics for SoLaS, which I managed to equip to a guy. He punted and swung into my Avenger with SoLaS and lost his War Monk, and then he could never keep up with the Sword. I won after that easily, though this game was a grind fest.

-----

So I'm 3-0 right now and liking my chances, but we can't double draw in unless we colluded the undefeateds to do it and it wasn't worth it.

R4 I recognized the guy I was playing but I forgot what deck he was playing until he played T1 Arid Mesa (hint: zoo). He played Goblin Guide and then I realized my hand had no removal, which is very bad against him. Even though I hit like 3 lands off GG, every creature I put out either hit path or burn, and that GG got me to 12 before he eventually played a Grim Lavamancer. I had the Grunts but it was too late, and all it took was two Lavamancer activations and a Price of Progress to kill me (oops, didn't see that coming, I had about 5 non basics in play).

G2 I was wishing I had BFTs in the board. I brought in Relic and Wheel to stop his Lavamancer and I think that was it. I got a MoR to stick a couple turns until it bit removal after blocking a Nacatyl. We had enough removal this game to make it longer, though this game went until 7 mins left in the round. I eventually got him out of removal and played a Stoneforge Mystic (MVP still) with both the Swords on him to get through. He can't really race SoLaS.

G3 I knew favored him since I can't really get a quick kill. He was shuffling fast, and even though he didn't say it he was playing really fast to try to get the win in. I could have been a dick and pile shuffled once, took the full 5 mins, etc but I didn't. I kept a hand with trip MoR (pretty lucky) and he had removal for one but the other two stone walled his 2x Kittys until he drew removal for one after a block. By this point I was at 13 and was getting a little nervous because I wasn't drawing anything. I had a Swords but he had DI burn and put me within range of a Bolt and PoP killing me (I think I had two non basics). I was in real rough shape but I drew Stoneforge off the top and got SoLaS equipped. He didn't have the burn that turn, I'm pretty sure I the one card in his hand as PoP, so as long as he didn't mise burn I was ok. He didn't and I swung into him to gain life, and the next card I mised was another Mystic. I played it and got SoFaI but at this point Time was called. I managed to get him down to 3 on t5 but couldn't finish him off and he was way behind. All I needed was one more turn, but we drew.

-----

At this point I look at the standings and there is only one 4-0 guy and only two 3-0-1 guys. I ended up getting paired up against the 4-0 player and checked the standings and did the math. There were 9 people with 9 or more points, meaning that I was a lock for T8 if I drew to 11 points, because the 9s were all paired together, and only one person was missing out that could pass me.

At this point I took time to scout the meta and realized there were THREE enchantress players, two more then the last writeup I had. I was thanking my lucky stars that I didn't have to face any of them, because that matchup has to be singlehandedly the WORST matchup for D+T. I'm thinking of putting a couple Aura of Silence just to have a chance next tournament if I see them again.

-----

Top 8 gets announced and I'm paired up against my friend who is running his own creation (I think). I was paired against him R1 of the last report I made in this thread, where we drew 1-1 because we went to time G3. It is a mix between Loam and 43.lands I'm pretty sure. He plays a ton of lands, all the good utility ones (Maze, Ruins, Tolaria West, Factory, etc), Loam, Crucible, Firespout, Swords, Goyfs, Knights, Intuitions, etc. Pretty much a bad matchup for our deck, since it's combo and you need an answer to Loam or you're stone screwed. Oh, he also main decks two Explosives which is the stone nuts against this deck. After this match I am seriously putting a Pithing Needle or two in the board specifically for Explosives because I cannot beat that card, especially recurred.

G1 I knew I was not favored, and although I had some heat on him with Avenger, Jitte, etc he just had Explosives to just murder me. He had 2-3 Swords and 2-3 Firespouts, which just killed everything I put down.

G2 I sided in E. Tutors, Wheel, Relic, and Wing Shards against him. I stupidly took out the Mangaras, thinking they were too slow, but that was a mistake because I could have used a way to remove his lands (i.e a Maze I couldn't get though late). He didn't have as much removal this game and we managed to get a Jitte with 6 counters riding Flickerwisp, him around 15 or so (I didn't have lethal next turn). He has no blue mana or Ruins at this point. He Trinket Mages for Explosives and sets it at 3 for Flickerwisp hoping I don't have O-ring because he has no mana to pop it. Obviously I don't have the O-ring, and we swing back and drop an Avenger and suit up the Jitte on it, glad he didn't name two on Explosives. He pops Explosives and has a Firespout for the Avenger. I play another Avenger next turn and suit it, because the next swing will be for lethal. He topdecks (on an empty hand) his other lone Explosives for two, wiping everything I have, and I never recovered. The game went on for 20 more minutes, and everytime I got a guy he killed it until he got Maze of Ith to halt my attacks. Then he just played guys, and I drew my O-rings but I had no outs to Gargoyle Castle plus Knight and lost (wheel was putting Castle back in his library lol).

So for all my troubles and being there for 6 hours playing I didn't win a damn thing because payout was only to T4. Oh well, I was ok with how I played making very little actual punts this time around.

I definitely am going to take Orim's Chants out of the board, and probably add in a Pithing Needle and Aura of Silence instead, since my meta has no ANT or Belcher right now. Apparently Goblins is supposed to be on the rise though, so I may want to think about putting Tividar or BFT in the side, but I honestly can't think of any spots for it. Probably Wing Shards, since I never actually cast it all day despite siding it in sometimes. I just didn't need the extra removal against the bant decks because they only have 8 or so attackers.

I am starting to seriously contemplate playing the deck if the number of Enchantress players keeps rising though, lol.

[Penguinizer]

I've got a problem. I've got a tournament coming up, but I was unable to borrow a Sword of Light and Shadow on time. I currently had 61 cards maindeck with it included, so I can still leave it out, but I'm curious if there are viable replacements/other cards that would work in the toolbox.

Current toolbox:
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Basilisk Collar


Post tournament edit:
There were approx. 38-40 people there. I went 4-0-1 over Swiss and won in T8. I do believe I got very very lucky with some of the wins. I do not precisely remember how the rounds went because I didn't think to write it down. I went against Re-animator, Bant Countertop, Merfolk and 2 Dreadstill lists in Swiss. In T8 I went against the same Bant Countertop and one of the Dreadstill lists as well as Zoo.

I won most of the matches 2-1, with the exception of UR Dreadstill in which we agreed to a tie since we were going to run out of time.

In the control matchups, I usually managed to remove their relevant threats and managed to force a Flickerwisp, Stoneforge Mystic or Serra Avenge through their control and win with that. I managed to draw a lot of removal in all of the matches, which struck me as a bit weird. I also got a lot of double-vial hands. In some matches I drew 3 Wing Shards and 3 Mangaras.

The hardest matchup by far was the countertop. I had serious trouble fighting through it. My Mothers also tended to get sworded before they got operational.


What I thought about the deck:
I liked my current build. The only thing I would change is switch BFT for Harrier. Harrier seems like it would have been much better in most of my matchups. There is also a signifact lack of combo in my current meta, and I'm thinking of cutting silence in favor of something that works against control.

Overall, while I'm very happy about winning. However, I'm worried that a lot of these victories were because I was topdecking way more removal and answers than usual. It feels like I won due to sheer luck.

[Vacrix]

I'm calling that this is going to shape up to be the best deck in the format post-MT bannings. How do guys plan to adapt your boards now that you don't need to devote an immense amount of SB space to your combo matchup? Might Cataclysm see play again?

[DalkonCledwin]

I am thinking that there will still be storm decks post the ban list changes on the first of the month. For example I know that various doomsday decks and to an extent TEPS are fairly minutely effected by the changes. And I am also aware that Goblin Charbelcher is affected next to not at all by these changes. As such it may be prudent to keep at least some sideboard slots devoted to storm match ups. At least keeping the Ethersworn Canonists in the board (as they also help against the enchantress match ups).

Other than that I am seriously liking the idea of Cataclysm. I am toying with the idea of replacing the Mishra's Factories and 1 of the Plains in my deck with Flagstones of Trokair to see if that helps me recover better from Cataclysm (yet to be tested) but we shall see. I am still working on finding time to test that idea.

As far as the other changes to the sideboard not much of the sideboard really needs to be changed, though a friend of mine did suggest that we may want to consider adding Pulse of the Fields as that card can potentially add a game plan against the more aggressive decks in the soon to be present meta, such as Zoo, and possibly even Burn :D

[Tanarin]

It would be nice to be able to use cataclysm at least in the SB. Seems like a SB with 2-3 cataclysms and 1-2 Ethersworn canonist could result in some nasty good fun for us in the enchantress matchup. I would say we should replace the shards straight up, but I am worried about not having enough redundancy against Progenitus. Maybe something like Teeg vialed in could be another interesting choice, and yes I am even talking about the mono white versions as well as the GW ones. Risky I know, but who knows.

[Vacrix]

I am thinking that there will still be storm decks post the ban list changes on the first of the month. For example I know that various doomsday decks and to an extent TEPS are fairly minutely effected by the changes. And I am also aware that Goblin Charbelcher is affected next to not at all by these changes. As such it may be prudent to keep at least some sideboard slots devoted to storm match ups. At least keeping the Ethersworn Canonists in the board (as they also help against the enchantress match ups).

Other than that I am seriously liking the idea of Cataclysm. I am toying with the idea of replacing the Mishra's Factories and 1 of the Plains in my deck with Flagstones of Trokair to see if that helps me recover better from Cataclysm (yet to be tested) but we shall see. I am still working on finding time to test that idea.

As far as the other changes to the sideboard not much of the sideboard really needs to be changed, though a friend of mine did suggest that we may want to consider adding Pulse of the Fields as that card can potentially add a game plan against the more aggressive decks in the soon to be present meta, such as Zoo, and possibly even Burn :D
Yes there will still be storm, but significantly less. I don't think TES and DD variants will emerge as popular choices like ANT because they are so much more difficult to play. I'm guessing that ANT and Reanimator players will just sell off their Underground Seas and build something else.

You run Factories? How? In place of Ports? Being able to attack under Standstill sounds sexy.

Also, IDK if Flagstones is worth it. Many Zoo players have been maindecking Price of Progress lately. Having more non-basics doesn't sound too hot right now.

[DalkonCledwin]

It would be nice to be able to use cataclysm at least in the SB. Seems like a SB with 2-3 cataclysms and 1-2 Ethersworn canonist could result in some nasty good fun for us in the enchantress matchup. I would say we should replace the shards straight up, but I am worried about not having enough redundancy against Progenitus. Maybe something like Teeg vialed in could be another interesting choice, and yes I am even talking about the mono white versions as well as the GW ones. Risky I know, but who knows.

I am not sure that the mono-white versions of the deck can effectively pull off the Gaddock Teeg card, as it in essence REQUIRES you to have both gaddock teeg and Æther vial in order to get the teeg into play. However if pulled off it would be a great answer to a lot of the problems that the deck faces.

@ Vacrix, yes I run Mishra's Factories in my current build, primarily for the reasons you suggested, being able to attack under standstill which helps alot in the landstill match up. And it is in place of the Rishadan Ports which I wasn't at the time I was building the deck able to get ahold of due to the rising price that had been occuring with Karakas (it was either the Karakas or the Rishadan Port and I figured the Karakas was more useful to the deck than the Ports).

As far as Zoo goes, I currently run 4 Wasteland, 2 Factories, and 4 Karakas. So at any given time I can have up to 4 Wasteland, 2 Factories, and 1 Karakas in play. That is a crap ton of damage from the Price of Progress. Fortunately the wastelands can be used to mitigate that damage themselves so it isn't as bad as all that.

I think your suggestion of being able to attack under landstill is a good point and a good case for keeping the mishra's factories in the deck though. But I am still thinking that running Cataclysm in the board is a good idea as it answers a lot of this decks problematic match ups such as landstill and enchantress.

[Penguinizer]

For the less combo intensive SB, I would probably cut Silence. It frees up four slots to help us against our worst matchup, countertop. I however have no idea for what I should SB in that slot. Possibly some high CMC enchant hate with an alternate manacost.

Current SB:
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Wing Shards
1 Jötun Grunt
1 Goldmeadow Harrier
4 free slots.

[SolonJhee]

I think every SB should have the Enlightened Tutor package, it is simply so good against combo to get out the direct hate you need. Why so many Relics when you can have other hosers like Wheel and whatnot that are good against other matchups as well? Pithing Needle doesn't stop wheel.

[Finn]

Dalkon Cledwin and I talked about this a few weeks ago. He and I do not agree about the tutor package. I am for it and he is against. I figured, going into the conversation that he was going to tell me that the one turn wait for the card you tutor for was going to be the sticking point. And I would have to concede that this is an issue. But he did not directly mention that. Instead, we disagreed about the frequency of drawing your important hate when you use it.

(DC, I found myself unable to convince you that you would draw hate against more opponents more often with versus without. In your case, your meta is not generic, so it might make sense to not account for some things.)

But in general, I can't understand why anyone would not be using the tutor package.

---------------------------------------

Also, it seems that if Tendrils combo suffers a hit in popularity from the banning of Mystical Tutor, we are near the top of the list of benefactors. If this does come to pass, I want to take the opportunity to shore up the Zoo and Lands matchups, since those decks are the other real winners. And both of them are right around the 50/50 mark right now for us.

[Penguinizer]

The problem here is that I don't have Enlightened Tutors. I will attempt to get some at some point, but for now there are cards that I need more urgently.

As for the package, would something like this work better?

3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Pithing Needle
1 Wheel of the Sun and Moon
1 Meekstone (zoo, NOPro mainly)
3 Wing Shards
1 Jötun Grunt
1 Goldmeadow Harrier

[DalkonCledwin]

Finn, it isn't that I entirely disagree with you. It's just that I thought that with combo decks in the picture, specifically Ad Nauseam, that the enlightened tutor package was a tad bit slower than would be desired. As such I figured that having an answer immediately as opposed to a turn after you needed (unless you played the tutor at the end of your opponents turn) would be beneficial to you. However waiting for your opponent to take a turn to be able to play your hate card, against combo may not always be an optimal course of action.

However with combo effectively neutered, I think that the enlightened tutor package may be the most optimal sideboarding choice that is available to the deck. At least that is my suspicion at the moment. My main concern with the enlightened tutor package is that it causes the deck to dilute its main board when siding things in and out. But that is something that can be potentially minimized if one knows what to side and how to side properly.

[CleverPetriDish]

I expect that you guys are happy with the ban of Mystical. It seems to me that this should propel this deck (and some others) into the forefront. What changes can we expect?

[DalkonCledwin]

I expect that you guys are happy with the ban of Mystical. It seems to me that this should propel this deck (and some others) into the forefront. What changes can we expect?

well some of us are already planning some changes. Myself for example I am toying around with the mystical tutor package, seeing what changes are optimal for the new environment, even though we don't really know what the new environment is going to be. I fully expect that in one form or another that heavy aggro decks and aggro-control decks will dominate the new environment which will probably make this deck a very popular deck to play in one form or another. I have decided that meekstone is an ideal answer to many of the aggro decks being run in this day and age and want to test it out (which means I need to aquire a meekstone so I can use it). However the other thing I want to test for the heavy aggro environment is Pulse of the Fields. That card can effectively turn back the tide of heavy aggro singlehandedly. This is a huge advantage that I think most white decks can take advantage of that they haven't really seized upon before now, but now that combo is out of the picture they may be able to. The beauty of this decks ability to do so is that it has ways of cheating its cards into play thereby leaving mana open to actually cast pulse.

[Tanarin]

As far as Zoo goes, I currently run 4 Wasteland, 2 Factories, and 4 Karakas. So at any given time I can have up to 4 Wasteland, 2 Factories, and 1 Karakas in play. That is a crap ton of damage from the Price of Progress. Fortunately the wastelands can be used to mitigate that damage themselves so it isn't as bad as all that.


Hmm, well if zoo becomes big, (Which is SHOULD,) Why not run instead of wastelands we run Ghost Quarter, same trick for PoP but it also leaves us at 0 Land loss and 1 mana open for Swords if we need it. Hell, we could even tap the flagstones and respond with Swords. Seems like a better answer than clearing our board just to avoid most of the damage. Heck this may aslo open up the deck to play Path instead of Swords to mitigate the life difference. I say that is worth testing as well.

[DalkonCledwin]

Hmm, well if zoo becomes big, (Which is SHOULD,) Why not run instead of wastelands we run Ghost Quarter, same trick for PoP but it also leaves us at 0 Land loss and 1 mana open for Swords if we need it. Hell, we could even tap the flagstones and respond with Swords. Seems like a better answer than clearing our board just to avoid most of the damage. Heck this may aslo open up the deck to play Path instead of Swords to mitigate the life difference. I say that is worth testing as well.

I actually think that may be an interesting idea and worth testing in the new meta. I am not sure if that idea is all that good of an idea if Land heavy decks become hugely popular in the new meta. But I figure most of those have ways to recur those lands anyways so it may not hurt to be able to force them to search for basics instead of using the non-basics that they normally want to be utilizing. And the fact that it serves a dual purpose of protecting our own lands is an intriguing bit of information as well, I think this is definitely worth consideration.

[Vacrix]

While doing a search, I randomly found this. Its much like Meekstone... only it doesn't affect Grunt. Its probably unnecessary, especially now that Reanimator is dead, but I figured I'd mention it anyway.
Crackdown


Also, if you want to run Ghost Quarter, you should consider Aven Mindcensor. Turning your Ghost Quarter's into Strip Mines is tech.

[menace13]

My friend Blaze ran Living Wish build into the money few days ago( tuned for Naya Sligh and Landstill meta).
As of April(launch of Legacy) to date, he has 21 daily finishes with DnT and 1 with Living. Teeg main and Magus for Landstill, while Finks and BFT help out in Sligh.

2 Flooded Strand (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Flooded_Strand'))
1 Forest (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Forest'))
3 Karakas (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Karakas'))
5 Plains (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Plains'))
3 Savannah (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Savannah'))
4 Wasteland (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Wasteland'))
4 Windswept Heath (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Windswept_Heath'))
22 lands


4 Benevolent Bodyguard (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Benevolent_Bodyguard'))
3 Flickerwisp (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Flickerwisp'))
2 Gaddock Teeg (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Gaddock_Teeg'))
2 JA?tun Grunt (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('JA?tun_Grunt'))
2 Mangara of Corondor (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Mangara_of_Corondor'))
3 Qasali Pridemage (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Qasali_Pridemage'))
3 Serra Avenger (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Serra_Avenger'))
3 Stoneforge Mystic (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Stoneforge_Mystic'))
22 creatures

4 A?ther Vial (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('A?ther_Vial'))
2 Living Wish (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Living_Wish'))
2 Oblivion Ring (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Oblivion_Ring'))
1 Runed Halo (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Runed_Halo'))
1 Sword of Fire and Ice (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Sword_of_Fire_and_Ice'))
1 Sword of Light and Shadow (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Sword_of_Light_and_Shadow'))
4 Swords to Plowshares (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Swords_to_Plowshares'))
1 Umezawa's Jitte (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Umezawa[s_Jitte'))
16 other spells

Sideboard

2 Burrenton Forge-Tender (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Burrenton_Forge-Tender'))
2 Ethersworn Canonist (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Ethersworn_Canonist'))
1 Faerie Macabre (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Faerie_Macabre'))
2 Kitchen Finks (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Kitchen_Finks'))
1 Magus of the Moon (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Magus_of_the_Moon'))
3 Silence (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Silence'))
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('The_Tabernacle_at_Pendrell_Vale'))
1 Tivadar of Thorn (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Tivadar_of_Thorn'))
2 Tormod's Crypt (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Tormod[s_Crypt'))
15 sideboard cards

[DalkonCledwin]

I am kind of curious how Blazelix is casting Magus of the Moon reliably. Is he relying solely on the Æther Vials to get it into play, or does he have some alternative plan about that?

Also I am kind of surprised that no one on MTGO has been utilizing an Enlightened Tutor Package. I mean it isn't like Enlightened Tutor isn't available on MTGO. So why does no one play it?

[menace13]

I am kind of curious how Blazelix is casting Magus of the Moon reliably. Is he relying solely on the Æther Vials to get it into play, or does he have some alternative plan about that?

Also I am kind of surprised that no one on MTGO has been utilizing an Enlightened Tutor Package. I mean it isn't like Enlightened Tutor isn't available on MTGO. So why does no one play it?

Yeah, no other way aside Vial for Magus, but it does some trix g1 off of Wish(still needs Vial). No clue why more players aren't on the E. Tutor package, Jarhorsk( 2nd most DnT placings) does use it. It is readily available. I asked his opinion and he found it to be slower than more Canonist and Stoneforgers. We just got Mother of Runes online!

[DalkonCledwin]

yeah I initially found it to be slower as well. However I have come around to the opinion that because the Enlightened Tutors are in fact instants and they can be used at end of turn like any other instant, assuming one left mana open to do so, then that means they effectively double the amount of hate cards you can safely run at any given time, thus taking your effective sideboard slots up from 15 to 30 cards in effect (or at least that is how I read it).

[menace13]

yeah I initially found it to be slower as well. However I have come around to the opinion that because the Enlightened Tutors are in fact instants and they can be used at end of turn like any other instant, assuming one left mana open to do so, then that means they effectively double the amount of hate cards you can safely run at any given time, thus taking your effective sideboard slots up from 15 to 30 cards in effect (or at least that is how I read it).

Agreed, i personaly like the E.Tutor package and it makes sb hate accessible turn 2-3 w/o mulling povided it is in opener. With the ban in place come the 1st, he should go back to testing tutor toolbox.

[Penguinizer]

Aside from the E-Tutor package, what should a non-package SB be like? As I mentioned before, the availability of E-tutor isn't spectacular around here.I will try to get some, but in the meantime I'm stuck with a vanilla SB.

The tournaments I've been to have usually been rather blue heavy with some exceptions like Lands, Aggroloam and the occasional Goblins and Zoo. Goblins and Zoo as such aren't too bad. It however depends on me getting an active sword out quickly. The high amount of removal is useful though. As a note, there is nearly zero combo in my meta. Only two people at most in 30-man tourneys. Canonist is still ok in other matchups, so I would like to keep it.

My biggest problem however is counterbalance. I've been thinking of some possible cards that might work. I can't always rely on being able to get Mangara active or resolving an O-Ring. I thought that Elvish Hexhunter/Kami of the Ancient Law might work. They both are low enough in CMC that they should hit the field before they get both a top and CB with open mana. At worst, they'll end up eating removal that could have hit something much more important. They also can hold a Jitte or a sword unlike Seal of Cleansing.

Wing Shards rarely gets any storm counters unless I have the mana to StP as well. It's still good against Progenitus though, and having a lot of removal is handy against aggro. Relic of Progenitus/Tormod's Crypt is the requisite gravehate. I also have 1 Jötun Grunt and 1 Goldmeadow Harrier in my SB because they're not good enough in some matchups, and having 2-1 splits clears up space in the MB.

Here's the SB I used at a tournament last weekend:

3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Silence
3 Wing Shards
1 Jötun Grunt
1 Burrenton Forge-tender (will change out for Harrier. These did not work out at all.)
1 Emrakul (Couldn't manage to borrow anything relevant into this slot.)

As mentioned before, in the absence of combo, I never sided in Silence or Canonist. I ended up siding Wing Shards in most matchups though.

[Vacrix]

Aside from the E-Tutor package, what should a non-package SB be like? As I mentioned before, the availability of E-tutor isn't spectacular around here.I will try to get some, but in the meantime I'm stuck with a vanilla SB.

The tournaments I've been to have usually been rather blue heavy with some exceptions like Lands, Aggroloam and the occasional Goblins and Zoo. Goblins and Zoo as such aren't too bad. It however depends on me getting an active sword out quickly. The high amount of removal is useful though. As a note, there is nearly zero combo in my meta. Only two people at most in 30-man tourneys. Canonist is still ok in other matchups, so I would like to keep it.

My biggest problem however is counterbalance. I've been thinking of some possible cards that might work. I can't always rely on being able to get Mangara active or resolving an O-Ring. I thought that Elvish Hexhunter/Kami of the Ancient Law might work. They both are low enough in CMC that they should hit the field before they get both a top and CB with open mana. At worst, they'll end up eating removal that could have hit something much more important. They also can hold a Jitte or a sword unlike Seal of Cleansing.

Wing Shards rarely gets any storm counters unless I have the mana to StP as well. It's still good against Progenitus though, and having a lot of removal is handy against aggro. Relic of Progenitus/Tormod's Crypt is the requisite gravehate. I also have 1 Jötun Grunt and 1 Goldmeadow Harrier in my SB because they're not good enough in some matchups, and having 2-1 splits clears up space in the MB.

Here's the SB I used at a tournament last weekend:

3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Silence
3 Wing Shards
1 Jötun Grunt
1 Burrenton Forge-tender (will change out for Harrier. These did not work out at all.)
1 Emrakul (Couldn't manage to borrow anything relevant into this slot.)

As mentioned before, in the absence of combo, I never sided in Silence or Canonist. I ended up siding Wing Shards in most matchups though.
Wouldn't increasing the number of Vial's postboard be a good way to beat CB? CB is significantly underpowered if they can't stop you from dropping creatures, especially when you can use SFM to resolve your equipment. Also, E-Tutor for Oblivion Ring would be a nice solution to CB as well.

[DalkonCledwin]

I am not sure how you are planning on casting the Emrakul (is it possible that is a joke include?). Anyways I have completely forgone the Wing Shards in favor of Meekstone and Cataclysm, both of which are capable of hindering various strategies that give this deck fits. In the soon to be combo-weakened environment I don't think we need BOTH Silence and Ethersworn and because Ethersworn is infinitely more versatile than Silence I suggest keeping the Ethersworn not the Silence. Relic of Progenitus is not my favorite option but that is a personal choice. I don't think Burrenton Forge-Tender in the board is an optimal choice as I would much rather have it in the main deck, but that is just me. Other than that the sideboard looks like a solid starting place for a packageless board.

[Vacrix]

I am not sure how you are planning on casting the Emrakul (is it possible that is a joke include?).
He can ramp his vial to 15!!!

No seriously, I think he ran it (obviously in a rush to fill that slot) assuming that Reanimator or 'drop fatty variants' would play SnT or Eureka, and then he would have something to put into play.

[Penguinizer]

The Emrakul is indeed a pseudo-joke. It's there because I couldn't get a 4th silence in time. Turns out it didn't really matter. I picked it because I know that there is at least 1-2 people playing Painter at the tournaments I go to. For Show and Tell, I'd much rather be dropping a Runed Halo or O-Ring if possible. I suppose a Stoneforge Mystic for the relevant prot sword wouldn't hurt.

[Joe_C]

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
11 [IA] Plains (2)
4 [LG] Karakas
3 [TE] Wasteland
4 [MM] Rishadan Port

// Creatures
3 [CS] Jotun Grunt
4 [UL] Mother of Runes
4 [CHP] Serra Avenger
3 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
3 [TSP] Mangara of Corondor
4 [EVE] Flickerwisp
3 [LRW] Goldmeadow Harrier

// Spells
1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
1 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow
4 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
3 [LRW] Oblivion Ring

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [SHM] Wheel of Sun and Moon
SB: 1 [SHM] Runed Halo
SB: 1 [WL] Aura of Silence
SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [LRW] Burrenton Forge-Tender
SB: 3 [WL] Tariff

Here is what I have been working on.... We must remind ourselves that dredge also greatly benefits from combo taking a big hit, so BFT plays an additional role in that matchup as well as being handy against zoo/goblins. Tariff is for those really early reanimator schenannigans that cant wait for 3 mana to hit the board (ie. retribution of the meek, wing shards). In my limited testing, this is working out pretty darn well.... I would be playing in tournaments, but alas my wife is pregnant and on bed rest so I am unable to venture out and play cards for some time :-(

[Penguinizer]

I found BFT underwhelming when I played against zoo. It didn't stop their removal when it was most needed and they didn't run red beaters. I'd prefer Goldmeadow Harrier in that slot. The reason for my 2-1 split on the BFT/Harrier and Grunt is to make room for MB Runed Halo. I'll have to test out Tariff or Kami of Ancient Law when the next tourney rolls around.

[DalkonCledwin]

I am actually in agreement that Burrenton Forge-Tender will be a huge contender in the coming months do to Dredge probably filling the slot that ANT used to fill as far as easy to pilot and consistent combo decks are concerned (the other possibility being Enchantress). To that end I think BFT is a viable option not for a sideboard card but for a main deck card. The sideboard should be dedicated to other more utilitarian choices in my opinion.

Not to mention the Burrenton Forge-Tender gives us protection against Goblins.

Another possibility that some people on MTGO had been playing until recently would be Benevolent Bodyguard. That is at least worth some consideration. It may not be as all encompassing as Burrenton Forge-Tender, but its protection is granted to whatever color you wish, thereby enabling for more versatility. Additionally it like the Forge-Tender requires you to sacrifice it to activate making it a viable option when compared to Dredge decks.

[Penguinizer]

Hmm, I might still end up playing BFT for that exact reason. I found it ok in Goblins, but Stoneforge Mystic is the real star of that matchup. Most games where I've gotten a Sword of Fire and Ice into play I've won. I'm still fairly confident in the 2-1 splits. I might also move to having 4 crypts/relics in the SB for those reasons as well. Kami of Ancient Law is sadly rather limited as it only hits enchantments, same is true for Elvish Hexhunter. The Kami does seem to be better in general though, as it does not require mana nor does it have to tap.

[Lord_Cyrus]

You sac it to remove their bridges... You can sac it whenever you wish, so just use it in response to a dread return to euthanize their zombie swarm. Fairly obvious.

[DalkonCledwin]

You sac it to remove their bridges... You can sac it whenever you wish, so just use it in response to a dread return to euthanize their zombie swarm. Fairly obvious.

it isn't necessarily exceedingly obvious, but yes, that is why you play Burrenton Forge-Tender in a deck that wants answers to Dredge. The idea is that this deck does not normally have main deck answers to Dredge during Game one, so by including Burrenton Forge-Tender in the deck's main plan you increase the odds that you will win game one by a significant margin for each one.

Some people however find that Burrenton Forge-Tender does not help against enough strategies to make her worth using. I however, disagree with this analysis due to the fact that a Burrenton Forge-Tender alongside of a Sword of Light and Shadow can act as a perma-fog against giant red threats such as Progenitus. Among other things.

[Penguinizer]

I have 2 MD grunts as well. I would run 3 if not for Runed Halo, which I still think is worth it. In the matches I played, it let me stall the game long enough so I managed to get the upper hand.

[DalkonCledwin]

I have 2 MD grunts as well. I would run 3 if not for Runed Halo, which I still think is worth it. In the matches I played, it let me stall the game long enough so I managed to get the upper hand.

I am not entirely sold on Runed Halo. Especially main decked. The card at best stalls out against a single card, which simply is not enough against things like Zoo or Goblins, and against decks like NO-Pro it simply prevents the attacks by Progenitus turning him into a giant wall that blocks all of your creatures save the ones with flying. I don't think the trade off is worth it. I would much rather be running Meekstone in its place, but certainly not main decked.

[Penguinizer]

I'll have to test a build without it at some point. I don't really know what to run instead. It's worked well for me. It also gives me additional combo hate that still has function even if combo becomes rarer. As for Progenitus being a giant wall, that is hardly an issue. My ground dudes rarely attacked without a prot-sword.

The build I'm probably going to try out at the next tournament:

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [LG] Karakas
14 Plains
3 Mishra's Factory

// Creatures
2 Jotun Grunt
4 Serra Avenger
3 Mangara of Corondor
4 Mother of Runes
4 Flickerwisp
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Burrenton Forge-tender

// Spells
4 AEther Vial
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Runed Halo
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Basilisk Collar
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Jotun Grunt
SB: 1 Burrenton Forge-tender
SB: 3 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Wing Shards
SB: 4 ???? Used to be silence, I have no idea what to replace it with. I'm considering 3 Kami of Ancient Law and 1 Canonist, Grunt or something.


The reason I lack Wasteland is as I do not own any and I can't borrow 4 because the old person I know of who has any is usually using them. Same for the tutor package. I ran the same list with a different sideboard to a 4-0-1 victory at a 30-man tournament (I said 38 earlier, I remember wrong. Sorry) as I mentioned earlier. I think the deck worked fairly well, although the lack of wastelands was bothersome.

[Salogy]

I am not entirely sold on Runed Halo. Especially main decked. The card at best stalls out against a single card, which simply is not enough against things like Zoo or Goblins, and against decks like NO-Pro it simply prevents the attacks by Progenitus turning him into a giant wall that blocks all of your creatures save the ones with flying. I don't think the trade off is worth it. I would much rather be running Meekstone in its place, but certainly not main decked.

You should consider running Runed Halo in your main deck. I have had great results with this card as a singleton in my main deck. The card prevents your opponents from winning with a single card while you can continue winning.

Versus Zoo, I usually side it out (along with anything pridemages can blow up). Against goblins I keep it in depending on the build and name piledriver. The card is great vs NO-Progen, I can name Rhox War Monk, Progenitus and Tarmogoyf. Versus merfolk I'll usually name Mutavault or Lord of Atlantis. Tendrils of Agony is perfect to name versus ANT. Versus Canadian and New Horizons, I name one of their 2-3 creatures. Aggro Loam runs 2-3 big beats I can name with the halo. Grindstone or Jace MS are good cards to name in general. Finally the card is no good versus burn unless I want to name Fireblast =/

Runed Halo main decked is great because the card is so flexible. If you name the wrong card, use Flickerwisp to switch card names and keep going. You can do the same after you've removed a threat and a bigger one shows up. Running a single Runed Halo md is like running one Pithing Needle main decked. If you know what card to name, the card is never dead in game 1.

[chmoddity]

I think that Runed Halo as a card in the main goes directly against the primary focus of this deck. D+T works because you are disrupting the opponent's ability to get their game plan together. And when the opponent is finally able to get their game working, your offense doubles as defense.

Dedicating card slots (and mana) to stall tactics is not what an aggressive deck should be doing. I think I would be done with Swords to Plowshares and Oblivion Ring if there were creatures that could do the job.


0.02

[Penguinizer]

I belive that some stall tactics are necessary. We can not be faster than Goblins or Zoo, we need to slow them down. That's what I use Runed Halo for. It's also good against combo. I don't really know what to bring in if I cut it. BFT is NOT worth it as a 3-of main. Jötun Grunt might be, but that still leaves me with 1 extra slot.

[d0ner]

For slowing Aggro Decks down, i play Perimeter Captain. It blocks all his one drops successfull and gives 2 Live when chumpblicking a goyf!

[DalkonCledwin]

what happened to our Pro-Color cards in that they allow us to permanently chump block things. I mean Mother of Runes is not at all insignificant.

[Penguinizer]

It isn't when it always gets removed. Mother of Runes is not enough.

[DalkonCledwin]

It isn't when it always gets removed. Mother of Runes is not enough.

and what is going to stop your runed halo from getting removed?

[Penguinizer]

Zoo only runs 4 cards maindeck that can remove it compared to the 12+ cards that can be used to remove mother before it gets active. I also think that Jitte or SoLaS and SoFaI are much more likely to get removed.

[Tanarin]

Well if a Mother or a harrier is going to be eating one of their removal spells, it is still getting the job done since that is one less spell that a grunt or an avenger or a Mangora is gonna eat. Really though, Runed halo is much better off in the SB IMO.

[Dark Ritual]

Runed halo is better in the SB. As for it being harder to remove than mom, zoo runs 4 MD enchantment/artifact destruction dudes called qasali pridemage's. Mom getting removed I see as a victory since they then have one less removal spell for the real dudes like jotun grunt, mangara, and serra avenger. Zoo seems like a MU that is bad game 1, but can be improved via SBing games 2 and 3 because they are simply put really fast compared to us.

[DalkonCledwin]

I completely agree with everything that both Tanarin and Dark Ritual have said. Simply put, adding in Runed Halo in the main deck on top of the other things that this deck needs to be doing is simply going to remove your threat density or your removal density, and that is something that you don't want to do in my opinion.

[eq.firemind]

I agree with all of you who thinks Runed Halo is not MD card.
Here's my reason to not like it: After introduction of Stoneforge Mystic the deck starts to win with equipped dude far more often than before. Equips become a huge part of deck's strategy. Goldmeadow Harrier is as good as Halo in defence vs Zoo/Bant/Aggroloam creatures and almost as good vs Reanimator (tapping Iona/Sphynx is just ridiculous) but the little kithkin can all suddenly grab Jitte/Sword and ride it to the win. Halo can never do that.
Also, I'd like to remind one basic thing: you cannot win against everything, especially with maindeck. Halo is the card that screams "I try to answer everything".
And I agree with chmoddity about creatures: this deck wants many of them. First reason was mentioned above: Mystic is awesome and we need dudes to carry stuff. Second reason: Aether Vial is extremely powerfull card and we need creatures to maximize it.
See where it goes? Our good cards want creatures to become even better. Our main offensive strategy wants creatures to be effective.
Now, why don't run more creatures? IMHO there's no reason 'cause now (after the printing of fucking awesome Mystic) we finaly have enough good synergic creatures.

Now, there's another topic I'd like to discuss: Your predictions of metashift after banning MT.
I have a fear that our old enemy Landstill will show up again.
I guess this one will be a little easier 'cause we have 4 Sword-of-Protection-From-Spot-Removal maindecked, but it's still tough MU.
And I think our best bet here is to rely on manadenial plan (nothing new here) and diversify our threats' manacost to avoid 2-for-1 Engineered Explosives. I guess Mystic and more than 4 1-drop creatures will help the second part, but that's still not enough. If anyone have ideas, please share them.

[GooNaa]

I also had problems with Landstill decks.
First i played against a UW Version with Humility, WoG, Explosives, Jace and lost.
I thought a green splash for Gaddock Teeg could help. Knowing his decklist i knew Mother into Teeg to protect each other would have been game besides double swords.
The next time we tested he had switched to Ugb Standstill with Deeds, Innocent blood and i lost again.
The only wins i could steal were when i could lay a needle on deed.

Deed and to a bit Humility are the worst cards for us imo.
Right now i am back to Mono white.

My tournament experience so far with DnT is 17-3-3 but many wins fealt like they were stolen because the opponents did not know how to play against DnT and made several mistakes.

[Vacrix]

If Landstill does come back around, DalkonCledwin config. with MD Factories looks pretty good. You might want to throw in a Crucible post-board too.

[eq.firemind]

If Landstill does come back around, DalkonCledwin config. with MD Factories looks pretty good. You might want to throw in a Crucible post-board too.
Dunno, I always felt better with 10-11 manadenial cards (4 Waste, 3-4 Port, 3 Mangara)... Maybe it's playstyle, but Factories didn't work for me...

Ahh, totally forgot another old thing: resolved Cataclysm destroys slow control decks like Landstill, Trainwreck and so on. I guess I'll put 2-3 back in SB.

[GooNaa]

Elspeth is also a good thread against Landstill

[Vacrix]

Either way, Crucible should go in the board. Especially with the potential for Waste lock, I don't know why it isn't in there in the first place. Its bomb against control.

[AggroSteve]

i do not think that a wastelock would harm us much (at least not me, since i'm using the mono-white list), so i do not think crucible will be needed, but the idea of playing cataclysm again is much more to my liking

[Vacrix]

Well Crucible isn't used to prevent yourself from being wastelocked because you play basics. Rather, you use it to attack there mana base with your OWN wastelock, and you can get rid of their manlands that way you can attack under Standstill.

[DalkonCledwin]

While I do agree with Vacrix that the wastelock is a good idea. I do not think that diluting our deck's sideboarding strategy that much is all that good of an idea. I think that either Cataclysm or Armageddon should be sufficient for this strategy (preferably Cataclysm). Because if they do not counter the card, the card can set them back several turns if not indefinitely without really affecting our strategy all that much at all. It is a huge advantage that we can win the game because of. Where as the wastelock is limited to destroying one land a turn, and even that is really weak if they manage to get a crucible online.

[Vacrix]

Well I wasn't considering it a replacement to Cataclysm. I suggested that a few pages back as the first thing to run post-MT ban. I think its a good supplemental strategy if Landstill gets really popular or something (or its heavy in someone's local meta). Not only does Crucible help to recover from a Cataclysm or Armageddon, it also facilitates Wastelock, and makes Standstill completely dead. They might have their manlands but if we have at least one waste... it don't make no difference. They are forced to get rid of it.

Also.. Choke is quite good for people playing the green splash.

[Finn]

Cataclysm is not a new and untested card. We have some reliable testing from a while ago. It was very good against:

Goblins
Landstill
Stax
Lands
Enchantress
(Merfolk did not exist then, and I am not sure I have a good idea of how good it is there. Also, I don't care: we kill Merfolk)
(Zoo did not exist in any meaningful form. I really am not sure here either.)

With the talk that the field is going to look more like Landstill, Zoo, Lands, and Enchantress there seems to be something to the idea of bringing Cataclysm back at least as a SB card. After all, the decks that we really can't bring it in against, aggro-control w/blue we crush into little pieces already.

[Tanarin]

Yeah, cataclysm just seems like the best card we have avaliable to us to help in the Landstill matchup. The fact it helps against enchantress, (Another pain in the ass deck for us,) is a HUGE bonus. I also think going with manlands ourselves, Factories most likely, will be another boon for us to include in the deck. Doing so though means losing one of Wasteland or Port most likely, unless we want to risk mana screw by having only lands that generate colorless and as an effect also screwing us if BtB or PoP hit the stack.

[Joe_C]

I played around with a few lists that ran cataclysm maindeck, the card is such a bomb in a ton of matchups, but it isn't good enough in a meta full of bant and natural order decks, which I see alot of. Kitchen finks has amazing synergy with cataclysm. If brought in alongside cataclym against aggro, landstill, and lands, the tables can greatly be turned if we get behind... Board for consideration:

4 enlightened tutor
1 relic of progenitus
1 wheel of sun and moon
3 kitchen finks
2 cataclysm
3 tariff
1 pithing needle

[Vacrix]

Are you liking Etutor at 4? Maybe now that gravehate is needed much less, Ichorid is disappearing and Reanimator got nerfed, you should lower the Etutor count to 3 and run +1 Cataclysm.

[Penguinizer]

Why is everyone so quick to drop all the combo hate? Combo might still show up. There are combo lists that run without Mystical Tutor. I still think that it's worth having Ethersworn Canonist in the board. You can even just run one with ETutor.

I do however think that Cataclysm is worth another look. It could very well be one of the cards to fill the 3 empty slots in my SB left by Silence. I'm still stumped as to good vanilla sideboards. With the 2-1 splits, I've got 13 slots left. 3-4 of course go to crypt/relic, so that's 9-ish. 3 wing Shards is nice, and 3-4 Canonists against the oddball combo. It'll also slow down decks like Enchantress. Should I just have 3 canonists and 3 cataclysms or 4 and 2? I'm also curious as to how well Kitchen Finks works though. I might try it in place of cataclysm. My current meta consists of a large variety non-combo decks.

[Joe_C]

In all honesty, even with canonist, halo, tutor, you still have a TOUGH matchup against combo. In "theory" you will see a decline in combo and reanimator in metas where it is played because the lists aren't optimized without tutor. That isn't a proven truth yet, but if you already have a rough matchup against a deck, and that deck is likely to be less popular, why not just tighten up your other poor/ horrendous matchups with your board? I agree with you vacrix, I can likely get away with just 3 tutors in there in favor of the third cataclysm... If you see alot of zoo, finks is a pretty solid card... Dream board when you cast cataclysm: finks, vial at 3, karakas, mangara in hand 

[Vacrix]

I agree Joe to some extent. I think that DnT had a pretty tough matchup against combo, but this was during the days of Mystical Tutor. Post-board hate was less effective when Mystical Tutor essentially negated your hate, being able to find a bounce spell to ignore your lock piece. Now combo has to cantrip into its bounce/removal for your hatebears or use Burning Wish. Even so, DnT has an unspeakably slow clock.

Anyway, this would be a meta dependent choice. Penguinizer has a combo-light meta so he might as well improve the matchups he is most likely to see. I would definitely be in favor of SB Cannonist if you have enough combo floating around. Whats your meta look like Joe?

[Joe_C]

Normally there is a bunch of bant, a smattering of combo, enchantress x2 or more regularly, goblins, and a landstill player or two... It's pretty hard to prepare for it all... Facing combo is one of those things that happens sometimes, I played several times where there were combo players at the tournament and I avoided playing them all the way to top 8, and there were times when there were 2 combo players in the tournament and I faced them in consecutive rounds.... With the meta at least looking like it can turn towards more zoo and lands I could see cataclysm being a solid choice in the sb, and the best slots to free up are the combo hate slots

[Penguinizer]

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [LG] Karakas
10 [RAV] Plains (3)
4 [TE] Wasteland
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)

// Creatures
3 [CS] Jotun Grunt
4 [TSP] Serra Avenger
3 [TSP] Mangara of Corondor
4 [FNM] Mother of Runes
4 [EVE] Flickerwisp
3 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
3 [LRW] Goldmeadow Harrier

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
3 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
4 [OV] Swords to Plowshares
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [WWK] Basilisk Collar
1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
1 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [LRW] Burrenton Forge-Tender
SB: 4 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [FNM] Wing Shards
SB: 2 [EX] Cataclysm
SB: 3 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist


Here's my latest list. I decided to take the advice and just cut Runed Halo for Harrier. I also decided to move BFT to the side, it's too situational. Grunt is good enough to 3-of in main though. I might end up cutting the rest of the canonists, but I have no idea what to play instead. It's good vs. Enchantress anyways.

[echo89]

What do you guys think about adding a copy of Kor Haven to the deck? I like the idea of stopping Iona, Sphinx, Terravore and other unpleasant things with it, and it provides even more possibilities for combat tricks! I'm also thinking of adding something like Expedition map to the deck to make some kind of land toolbox..
Also, do you have any thoughts about running Cataclysm mainboard? I'd like to run it but I just can't figure out what to cut :/

[Finn]

Echo, don't use Expedition map. I don't like the land toolbox approach, as I think it reduces the consistency of the deck considerably. But if you wish to try it, I would use Weathered Wayfarer instead.

Kor Haven is on hold indefinitely for me. If I were to include another colorless mana source, it would absolutely be Wasteland #4.

Also, I am pretty sure it will soon be time for me to dust off my Cataclysms. At first, I will not be maindecking it. I guess it depends on how often it gets sided in. For anyone wishing to try it in the main, my advice is to put them in the Oblivion Ring spot.

[LegacyDan]

Am I really seeing this? NExt thing ya know someone will say Isamaru deserves a slot in the deck. I will be playing D+T in GP Columbus, but after the disappointment I had in using Cataclysm before I hardly expect to use it soon.

I myself am waiting to see what the new rumored sword holds for D+T.

[Penguinizer]

I'm also looking forward to the new sword. I'm unsure of how to fit it into the MB, but pro-green (rumor says so) sounds way too good to pass on.

[LegacyDan]

I currently run two Jittes, so making room should be easy if it is indeed a Pro Green sword.

[AggroSteve]

i do not think if we really need a pro green sword, sure it will be strong but, i think mothers are allready enough to chumpblock goyfs and his kind, i cant immagine a pro green sword to be worth it, not i the Jitte slot, not in the SoFaI, nor in the SoLaS slot

sorry but i can't immagine it to be all that good

[Finn]

If there is an aggressively priced protection from green sword I would seriously consider dropping Jitte for it. Pretty much the only time I ever bring in Jitte is when my main weapon is unavailable or when I am facing a Tarmo.

But Dan, Cataclysm really does look good again. The card was never weak, it was just in the wrong environment.

[LegacyDan]

I can always put it into my SB for Workstation, and if it does well I will try it again at the local tourneys.

Steve: The Pro: X is not the only thing that makes the swords good. The boost in attack and Defense makes all the world in half the games and the abilities are just awesome in others. Jitte does what? Kill little dudes? SoFaI does that. Gain life? SoLaS does that. Boost attack and defense? BOTH (and most likely SoBaM) do that all the time.

[(nameless one)]

I cant seem to find it from both here and MTG Sal. How did the lists with Cataclysm look like?

Since Karakas is going to be out of my budget, are there any decent substitutes to Mangara+Karakas lock? Would relying on Flickerwisp and Stonecloakers be enough.

Also, I am interested with that Wayfarer land-toolbox. But I think the lack of Karakas wouldn't make it better. Maybe run do Wayferer tricks ala U/W tempo?

How would your manabase look like with this land-toolbox (sans Karakas)

[tomjulioo]

without Mangara/karakas, you just have to find an other name to your deck

[DalkonCledwin]

without Mangara/karakas, you just have to find an other name to your deck

I disagree. As long as he uses Mangara in some capacity (even if it is only by using cards such as Flickerwisp and Stonecloaker) it is still able to be considered a Death and Taxes build, it is just a budgeted version of the deck. Heck I have seen Green and White versions of the Deck, would you consider those to not be Death and Taxes decks just because they aren't mono-white anymore?

[cseraph]

I can always put it into my SB for Workstation, and if it does well I will try it again at the local tourneys.

Steve: The Pro: X is not the only thing that makes the swords good. The boost in attack and Defense makes all the world in half the games and the abilities are just awesome in others. Jitte does what? Kill little dudes? SoFaI does that. Gain life? SoLaS does that. Boost attack and defense? BOTH (and most likely SoBaM) do that all the time.

Jitte does all of that when your attacker is getting chumped, and triggers off defense, too. It also can be cast and activated on mystic for 4 net, which is not irrelevant.

[DalkonCledwin]

It also can be cast and activated on mystic for 4 net, which is not irrelevant.

6 net (because you also have to cast (or at least vial in) the Stoneforge Mystic). But technically so can each of the Swords, and doing that with the swords.... nets you card advantage because the swords would normally cost 3 mana instead of 2 mana.

I am in agreement that the Sword of Body and Mind... if it is what we all assume it is (another piece of equipment in the image of Sword of Light and Shadow / Sword of Fire and Ice)... would be a very good addition, and probably the optimal piece of equipment to improve this decks Zoo match up. At least that is my take. This of course assumes that the colors attributed to the card would include Green in some capacity.

Of course if my speculation is correct and this card is but one of a series of new cards in the image of the original swords (i.e. they are completing a full cycle of 5 (or rather one for each enemy pair)) then deciding what ones to include in the deck may end up becoming much more of a meta decision than anything else in this deck.

I do look forward to finding out what this card turns out to be either way as it looks promising regardless of what it actually is.

[(nameless one)]

I disagree. As long as he uses Mangara in some capacity (even if it is only by using cards such as Flickerwisp and Stonecloaker) it is still able to be considered a Death and Taxes build, it is just a budgeted version of the deck. Heck I have seen Green and White versions of the Deck, would you consider those to not be Death and Taxes decks just because they aren't mono-white anymore?

I have actually seen a U/W version (But I am not sure that its essentially D&T, but I am 100% sure that it is not U/W Tempo)

That version ran Riptide Laboratory instead of Karakas and Crystal Shard but those are just 1-ofs. It still ran Flickerwisps and Vials but it also ran CIP Faeries.

[DalkonCledwin]

I have actually seen a U/W version (But I am not sure that its essentially D&T, but I am 100% sure that it is not U/W Tempo)

That version ran Riptide Laboratory instead of Karakas and Crystal Shard but those are just 1-ofs. It still ran Flickerwisps and Vials but it also ran CIP Faeries.

sounds very interesting. I don't suppose you have the list sitting around anywhere as I would be intensely interested in comparing notes to it.

[cseraph]

6 net (because you also have to cast (or at least vial in) the Stoneforge Mystic). But technically so can each of the Swords, and doing that with the swords.... nets you card advantage because the swords would normally cost 3 mana instead of 2 mana.

No, that was exactly my point. Getting a sword active (ie, connecting for value) on a mystic the turn after you play it costs 5 mana, since you can't tap it and attack with it on the same turn. And you meant tempo, not card advantage, but I'll assume that's just a slip :).

[DalkonCledwin]

No, that was exactly my point. Getting a sword active (ie, connecting for value) on a mystic the turn after you play it costs 5 mana, since you can't tap it and attack with it on the same turn. And you meant tempo, not card advantage, but I'll assume that's just a slip :).

yeah sorry, I always get tempo and card advantage mixed up... so not that big a deal.

Anyways. In my experience it is not at all unrealistic to think that one will have a creature out along side of the stoneforge mystic whom you can equip the sword or jitte to. Ideally it will even be something substantially larger than the mystic to begin with. Once that is accomplished you can use the mystic to put the card into play and just attach it to the other creature and swing in with the newly equiped card, netting both tempo advantage and actual raw card advantage from the sword or jitte's effects.

I personally find that using the mystic to cheat equipment into play is way more desirable in a great deal more match ups than actually equiping the various equipment in the deck directly TOO the stoneforge mystic unless you have absolutely no other alternative in doing so.

[cseraph]

Most of the time if you are trying to connect with a turn 2 mystic-ed piece of as soon as possible, as in the goblins matchup, it is going to have to be on the mystic themselves, barring vial shenanigans. Other creatures are definitely better choices later on, but my experience is that the value of mystic-ed equipment drops rapidly from borderline unfair in the first few turns to merely a good play later on.

In any case, the mana discussion was a very minor sideline of the more important point - swords get chumped (or stopped entirely by goyf and crew); jitte does not.

[Penguinizer]

I'm very curious about what do people think of the new "Sword of Vengeance"? The equip cost of 3 is meh, but +2/+0, first strike, trample, vigilance and haste seems good. It should be really strong vs merfolk, goblins and whatnot where vigilance+first strike turns even flickerwisp into something very dangerous.

[Salogy]

I've been playing this deck a lot recently. Combo has creeping up in my meta because everyone is playing Zoo. For example, today there were 9:22 players running Zoo. I am running Silence in the board with good results. I also run 3xEthersworn Canonist in my maindeck with a fourth in the sideboard.

Crazy combo decks in my meta include Aeon Bridge, Solidarity, and Enchantress. Even with Blecher on the rise, I will not run Mindbreak Trap in my board. Silence is much better except versus Belcher. I've considered running needles in my board to combat Belcher. How many needles should I run? I need enough to fend off deeds and Mosswort Bridges.

Zoo is also a pain. I've been using siding in Kitchen Finks and taking out my Mangaras in this matchup. Finks are just so great with Flickerwisp. I've considered Ghostly Prison and Elspeth for this matchup but neither of them are very appealing. What stops Zoo dead in it's tracks in mono white?



I'm very curious about what do people think of the new "Sword of Vengeance"? The equip cost of 3 is meh, but +2/+0, first strike, trample, vigilance and haste seems good. It should be really strong vs merfolk, goblins and whatnot where vigilance+first strike turns even flickerwisp into something very dangerous.

I like the concept behind this new sword. The equip cost is what keeps me from wanting to try it in this deck. Most of the abilities are cute, like the first strike, trample, and haste. The vigilance is good but +2/+0 doesn't seem enough for me. I'd rather run Jitte in this slot unless I am slapping the Sword of Vengeance with a second sword on the same critter.

I'll break it down.

Sword of Vengeance:
+2/+0 - This is alright but could be better
first strike - good
trample - our critters are never that large but evasive instead
vigilance - useful
haste - not great since we run vials

Overall, the equip 3 hurts a lot. I'm going to hope the new mythic sword is more playable than this one.

[d0ner]

i already posted that Perimeter Captain is very good against Zoo! it stops ALL their Firstdrops and it chumpblocks a goyf for 2 Life! Without Goyf you stall them. A second one is imba, because u get 4 life for blocking!

I also play Kitchen Finks in Mainboard. They kill most of Zoos Beaters, give Live and are synergetic with Flickerwisp(removes the -1/-1 Counter).

[DalkonCledwin]

Most of the time if you are trying to connect with a turn 2 mystic-ed piece of as soon as possible, as in the goblins matchup, it is going to have to be on the mystic themselves, barring vial shenanigans. Other creatures are definitely better choices later on, but my experience is that the value of mystic-ed equipment drops rapidly from borderline unfair in the first few turns to merely a good play later on.

In any case, the mana discussion was a very minor sideline of the more important point - swords get chumped (or stopped entirely by goyf and crew); jitte does not.

in the goblin match up I would rather play a turn 1 Burrenton Forge-Tender and then MAYBE think of following it up with some equipment if I have the right cards to do so. I don't usually think of landing stoneforge mystic on turn 2 and the equipment on turn 3 followed by equiping the equipment on turn 4 anyways. Mainly because I like to be able to equip the equipment on the same turn that I play the equipment because it makes it harder for my opponent to be able to respond to it if I do that. At least that is my philosophy. In fact I have found that playing Mystic too early tends to get it killed way to fast and gets the equipment stranded in your hand. Especially if you didn't have protection for the mystic in play in some capacity.

As far as the Sword of Vengeance goes, I don't really like it that much. It seems incredibly slow in this deck. Assuming you don't get it off of a stoneforge mystic the card costs a grand whopping total of 6 mana to play and equip to something. There is a reason we don't play loxodon warhammer in this deck and I think the mana investment is the main one.

I also agree with the adding Kitchen Finks to the main deck. I am currently testing a 2:2 split between Burrenton Forge Tender and Kitchen Finks. I like the idea of keeping the Forge-Tender because the card helps in several match ups aside from just Zoo, namely it helps against Dredge, and N.O.P. Countertop among a few others and definitely is a one hit wonder against Goblins being able to chump block virtually the entire deck dying only to their Warren Weirding (and that can't even stop it if you get another creature out before they cast the card). So it is a diverse answer to a diverse set of decks. Kitchen Finks also helps against a large swath of the meta, which is nice. I am really thinking that including the finks main deck is the right call from now on.

[(nameless one)]

sounds very interesting. I don't suppose you have the list sitting around anywhere as I would be intensely interested in comparing notes to it.

Unfortunately, I dont.

I encountered this list when I was playing on MWS. The dude (I cant remember his name) played it and to my surprised worked almost the same as D&T (All that Flickerwisp and Mangara tricks). I eventually asked him/her why no Karakas (because I haven't seen it in the 3 games that we played), he/she mentioned that that deck mirrored his real deck and he/she didnt have the budget to buy 3-4 Karakas.

I wish I had asked for the list.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Vacrix postet something that seems quite similar to what you're talking about in N&D, wait. http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?17900-%5BDeck%5D-Shard-Control
I actually like the idea of using Mangara, Spellstutter Sprite and friends with Crystal Shard, but I don't think that should still be labeled Death And Taxes.

[cseraph]

in the goblin match up I would rather play a turn 1 Burrenton Forge-Tender and then MAYBE think of following it up with some equipment if I have the right cards to do so.

Gah. You have a less than 20% chance of being able to open with forge-tender, even main decking him x2 as you relatively unusually do - and most goblins builds these days are capable of removing a t1 forge tender, and run more ways to do so than you run tenders.

So yeah, I'm sticking with my assessment that most of the time, a fast stone-forger will require self-equipping :).

The new sword is terrible against aggro with removal in every way, and invitation to tempo loss and the match slip. It could be quite hilarious against merfolk, but hardly compares to Sofi.

[Finn]

@the discussion about which creature to attach equipment to: You have to figure out what removal the opponent has. Against something like Zoo, that is THE issue in most cases. I commonly equip to the Mystic because once the equipment is in play, the Mystic is pretty much a Squire. If my opponent has been holding a removal spell for my creature as I try to equip, I want it going at the Mystic - and not an Avenger or Flickerwisp or Grunt or any other legitimate threat. Against decks with less removal (and more of other things to be concerned with), the decision is a bit cloudier.

[DalkonCledwin]

so the white M11 leyline has been confirmed by one of the more reliable rumor mill veterans as being Ivory Mask with the traditional leyline "casting" conditions. Will this be something we can use in our decks? Or is it just junk for Death and Taxes? Is it possible this could replace some of our more traditional combo hate?

[Finn]

An Ivory Mask that comes down on turn 0 is definitely worth serious consideration. The question in my mind is what combo is going to look like. It will probably be a good foil against Belcher and Ad Nauseam decks while it does little to nothing against any other combo deck such as Enchantress or probably Aluren.

Also, you have to have 4 in the SB or it is not worth it. So it is good against, uhh

Some combo
Burn
Zoo, maybe?
Lands? (stops Intuition)
MBC

[cseraph]

Not a big fan against zoo, they can just burn your guys instead.

Sort of cute against Eve's discard, though. It also takes the sting out of gatekeepers.

[LegacyDan]

It does handle a lot of cards in a cute fashion, I look forward to seeing how it works out in the deck....

[LostButSeeking]

As a combo (TES) player who routinely plays against DNT, I can tell you some of the pros and cons right now.

Pros:
-It's not a hatebear and doesn't die to hate bear hate (IE. Deathmark).
-It's an enchantment This means that shattering spree, one of the best anti-hate cards ever printed, doesn't take care of it. Also, for TES, there really isn't a very good sorcery speed hate piece to get with burning wish--we really want shattering spree in white for enchantments. What we have is gleeful sabotage.

Cons:
-It doesn't stop second turn empty the warrens for a forty goblin tokens.
-It doesn't help with your clock.
-It doesn't stop Ad Nauseum. If we do get some hate card (probably chain of vapors) we don't have to deal with Leyline of the Mask before going for Nauseum, and we can continue drawing until we hit it. This is probably the worst one. Ethersworn canonist stops ad nauseum for going off, but this . . . doesn't.

If you're running an eight card anti-storm side board, I might do this as 5-8, I don't know. This AND canonist could be pretty backbreaking if you can get any sort of reasonable clock up.

[Curby]

The problem isn't the lack of uses. The problem is the fact that it takes up a lot of space in your side. This isn't a singleton that you're going to Tutor for: what will you take out for 4 of these? And are those four cards less useful than this ability?

[cseraph]

Jotun Grunt, Runed Halo, Orim's Chant, perhaps? I don't understand the deck well enough to know exactly what is being brought in when.

[LegacyDan]

I know this is a shot in the dark, but what about Sword of Vengeance? It seems interesting, What with the +2 ATK, Trample, AND First Strike. Maybe and Aggro heavy meta choice? The 3 to equip does seem kinda lofty though.

[Curby]

It's easy to suggest cards for a deck: many cards have things to offer a given deck. The hard part is answering "what would you take out for it?" That's the statement with real value: it shows that you've thought about how and why a particular card is better than an existing one, or how and why a deck should be modified to fit a new idea.

It's been said that the new sword makes Flickerwisp into a real combat powerhouse, but the key there is first strike and vigilance, which allows it to attack and block without worrying too much about the 1 toughness. However, it's still not as good as anything else we're using, so there's just no room for it. I'm not even sure that it's as useful as certain other good equipment that we're not using. Loxodon Warhammer and Basilisk Collar come to mind, and both are good in aggro matchups too.

[cseraph]

The issue with it I think is that unlike the other swords or Jitte it does nothing to protect your guy from removal, and even if they tap out, stacks no advantage you can use later if they do as Jitte does. That makes it a very scary tempo loss proposition, which equipment already has trouble with in format.

[LegacyDan]

The issue has never really been about removal, 9 out of 10 times if the creature receives any amount of removal it happens before or in response to the equip ability. Half the time the equipment itself gets more hate than the critters.

While I do agree the lack of Pro: X does make me want to pass it up, the chance to make flickerwisp/Avengers into baby akromas is almost to much to pass up, let alone the idea of Mangara and Mom/Harrier being a threat and still getting to use their tap effects seems just GOOD. I honestly think the deck needs a viable Vigilence equip to make the smaller defense creatures more of a threat.

[Finn]

The fact that this weapon gives haste makes all the difference imo. Aside from the fact that vialing in Mangara, equipping, attacking, then removing something all on the same turn is hotness, I like that you have a more streamlined decision tree when the equipment grants haste. Instead of having to guess which to play first (equipment or creature), now the answer is always the weapon.

Look, we have Mystics to fetch it. How much work could testing it be?

[Penguinizer]

I was just going to risk failing badly and add it as the 61st card, or move collar to SB. I also think Basilisk Collar is good, but it might be better as a SB card. It's good against re-animator and it was useful against Dreadstill. I might cut the two cataclysms for a 4th canonist in case of the occasional combo matchup and having the collar in SB.

I think it's worth having somewhere due to the synergy with mom.

[glwiley]

If/When they flesh out the enemy swords in Scars, what do we replace for one of the pro green swords? I know we want it in the deck to be able to go pro any color as soon as we have a mystic.

Would we actually cut Jitte? It's purpose more often than not is to kill opposing Jittes in my experience, and ensuring that they don't get counter on theirs by preventing combat damage dealt by the creature is just as good imo.

The problem with Sword of Vengeance is that the equip cost is 3 instead of 2, this means that vialing a mystic eot on turn 3 still means you cant play and equip on turn 4. I think unless you draw SoV naturally you won't be playing it in most games.

[AggroSteve]

i have to agree with finn that haste makes a real difference, and together with vigilance sword of vengeance can be really good

a long time now i have been thinking of lightning greaves, just due to the fact that they give haste, like this we would gain a lot of tempo, the only problem with lightning greaves was that the creature became untargetable, so it would be hard to use mangara as a vindicate, it would only work if i got 2 creatures in play, including mangara

as finn allready mentioned sword of vengeance gives the option to even attack with mangara the same turn he came in by vial, and then remove something, it sounds just too awesome..... but, IMO i do not think sword of veangeance will find its place in any serious decklist because it is just to much of a mana investment

until i know exactly what abilities the sword of PRO green has, i will not change anything with my equipment suite, if that sword is really powerful it will come into the list but not as a replacement for any of the other equipments, but as replacement for one of the less usefull creatures (depends on meta)

[LegacyDan]

i have to agree with finn that haste makes a real difference, and together with vigilance sword of vengeance can be really good

a long time now i have been thinking of lightning greaves, just due to the fact that they give haste, like this we would gain a lot of tempo, the only problem with lightning greaves was that the creature became untargetable, so it would be hard to use mangara as a vindicate, it would only work if i got 2 creatures in play, including mangara

until i know exactly what abilities the sword of PRO green has, i will not change anything with my equipment suite, if that sword is really powerful it will come into the list but not as a replacement for any of the other equipments, but as replacement for one of the less usefull creatures (depends on meta)

Indeed. Lightning Greaves was in my Sideboard off and on for a while, and I always felt it was kinda lacking. Now a Greaves with vigilance/trample/first strike is worth the time in playtesting.

The much rumored Sword of Pro Green (maybe) sounds good, whether or not it makes it is kinda depending on its other abilities.

[Salogy]

Death and Taxes took 3rd place in the last Premier Event held on MTGO (http://www.wizards.com/magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/1395803)!

Here is the decklist:

3 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Flickerwisp
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Mangara of Corondor
4 Mother of Runes
4 Serra Avenger
3 Stoneforge Mystic

4 Aether Vial
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Runed Halo
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte

2 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Karakas
2 Mishra's Factory
10 Plains
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Aura of Silence
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Kitchen Finks
2 Ravenous Trap
3 Silence
2 Tormod's Crypt


Death and Taxes has made showings at both legacy PEs on MTGO so far. Death and Taxes went up against a diverse amount of decks during the event, beating Burn, dredge, landstill, countertop thopters, zoo, and Aeon Bridge in the swiss rounds. Without ports to stop Aeon Bridge (1st), the deck lost to combo in the semifinals. The new white leyline would have helped in this matchup and possibly versus Aluren (2nd) as well.

[menace13]

Death and Taxes took 3rd place in the last Premier Event held on MTGO (http://www.wizards.com/magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/1395803)!

Here is the decklist:

3 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Flickerwisp
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Mangara of Corondor
4 Mother of Runes
4 Serra Avenger
3 Stoneforge Mystic

4 Aether Vial
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Runed Halo
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte

2 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Karakas
2 Mishra's Factory
10 Plains
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Aura of Silence
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Kitchen Finks
2 Ravenous Trap
3 Silence
2 Tormod's Crypt


Death and Taxes has made showings at both legacy PEs on MTGO so far. Death and Taxes went up against a diverse amount of decks during the event, beating Burn, dredge, landstill, countertop thopters, zoo, and Aeon Bridge in the swiss rounds. Without ports to stop Aeon Bridge (1st), the deck lost to combo in the semifinals. The new white leyline would have helped in this matchup and possibly versus Aluren (2nd) as well.

Make that back to back top 8s for DnT with Blaze. Sitting in top 8 right now just 5-1'd the swiss, 33 man Premier.

[morgan_coke]

In the finals now, went through the top 8 like a hot knife thru butta. Seriously, Blaze has consistently put up very impressive, consistent results with this deck. There's probably some wisdom in them thar cards.

[DalkonCledwin]

In the finals now, went through the top 8 like a hot knife thru butta. Seriously, Blaze has consistently put up very impressive, consistent results with this deck. There's probably some wisdom in them thar cards.

yeah he has actually been testing several varieties of the deck. A while back he was playing a GW version of the deck, now it seems he is back to a mono-white list. I am actually interested to see what his next innovation is going to be.

I think his consistency has more to do with the fact that he has been playing this deck on MTGO for several years. I think he started playing the deck in the classic format, despite the fact that the deck is not designed for such a format. I don't know what kind of results he put up in said format, but whatever those results he gained the experience needed to progress to becoming one of the best and most consistent Death and Taxes players on the MTGO Tournament Circuit. Despite the fact that I think I earned his ire with a comment I made that apparently freaked him out a little bit (don't know why), I respect and admire him a great deal as a death and taxes player. Both he and Finn seem to be very good with this deck.

One thing that heavily interests me about his lists is the fact that he does not use the Enlightened Tutor Package. That strikes me as a unique feature of his decks. I don't remember if this is because of him not being able to afford such a package, or because of preference, but it seems to be doing incredibly well for him.

EDIT: Blazelix and his Death and Taxes deck came in Second in the Third Premier Event for Legacy on MTGO. He isn't doing all that bad for himself if I do say so myself.

[menace13]

yeah he has actually been testing several varieties of the deck. A while back he was playing a GW version of the deck, now it seems he is back to a mono-white list. I am actually interested to see what his next innovation is going to be.

I think his consistency has more to do with the fact that he has been playing this deck on MTGO for several years. I think he started playing the deck in the classic format, despite the fact that the deck is not designed for such a format. I don't know what kind of results he put up in said format, but whatever those results he gained the experience needed to progress to becoming one of the best and most consistent Death and Taxes players on the MTGO Tournament Circuit. Despite the fact that I think I earned his ire with a comment I made that apparently freaked him out a little bit (don't know why), I respect and admire him a great deal as a death and taxes player. Both he and Finn seem to be very good with this deck.

One thing that heavily interests me about his lists is the fact that he does not use the Enlightened Tutor Package. That strikes me as a unique feature of his decks. I don't remember if this is because of him not being able to afford such a package, or because of preference, but it seems to be doing incredibly well for him.

EDIT: Blazelix and his Death and Taxes deck came in Second in the Third Premier Event for Legacy on MTGO. He isn't doing all that bad for himself if I do say so myself.

Yeah he is solely responsible for over half of those winnings with DnT online. I would say he is one of the nicer people online and it is pretty hard to get the guy upset. The Classic list played more like GW Haterade with Teeg,Canonist and True Believer. I and a few other guys online helped out with that list and i think he did something like 3-4 dailies out of 8. And, yeah that list is not the easiest thing to put against Bazaar,oath and Y.Will, but has a great Merfolk MU. He has only played DnT online since Jan,2010. I think he tried 2 E.Tutor and did not like them, the only thing he used it for was finding GY hate. Plays Finks over Prisons.

[unicoerner]

Can we play Flickerwisp, then tap mangara and bring mangara to hand with this Flickerwisp?

[Curby]

You tap Mangara, then Vial in Flickerwisp in response to tapping Mangara. Casting Flickerwisp as normal is too slow. Also, it doesn't bounce Mangara to hand but RFGs it until end of turn.

[Morim_Brightsmoke]

What do people think about the splash green versions? I was wondering if they were worth exploring, mostly because Qasali Pridemage seems amazing all the time, and Living wish seems really strong. I also wanted to know what people thought about War Priest of Thune now that CB Top enlightened tutor decks with cards like Humility/Moat/White Propaganda are floating around and starting to be seen as good.

187 creatures basically always seem amazing in this deck and I think they should be explored more. Atm most lists are just running Mangara, stoneforge mystics and oblivion rings which favorably interact with flickerwisp, but I think there is some opportunity for other cards. Maybe I just haven't played the deck enough, but I want to explore where this deck can go a bit more.

[Curby]

I don't see War Priest working out for us. What does it do that Mangara and ORing don't already do?

And as always, what would you take out for it? There's always opportunity for new cards, but the hard part is figuring out what to take out. This makes my first question more relevant: it has to do something so much better than one of our current cards that it actually justifies a replacement. See my sig. :p

[Kudd]

What do people think about the splash green versions? I was wondering if they were worth exploring, mostly because Qasali Pridemage seems amazing all the time, and Living wish seems really strong. I also wanted to know what people thought about War Priest of Thune now that CB Top enlightened tutor decks with cards like Humility/Moat/White Propaganda are floating around and starting to be seen as good.

It seems that if you would splash green you start losing the core engine that makes D&T what it is. Your deck list starts looking like GW Maverick. Then you are in the wrong the thread...

Also, Pridemage and War Priest do nothing about Humility. They do not get their come into play abilities, and Pridemage loses his ability to blow stuff up.

When War Priest of Thune enters the battlefield, you may destroy target enchantment. It is not 'as', it is 'when'; therefore, Humility stays. Creatures cannot get rid of Humility. But you are right, they would get all those other things.

[Vacrix]

What do people think about the splash green versions? I was wondering if they were worth exploring, mostly because Qasali Pridemage seems amazing all the time, and Living wish seems really strong. I also wanted to know what people thought about War Priest of Thune now that CB Top enlightened tutor decks with cards like Humility/Moat/White Propaganda are floating around and starting to be seen as good.

187 creatures basically always seem amazing in this deck and I think they should be explored more. Atm most lists are just running Mangara, stoneforge mystics and oblivion rings which favorably interact with flickerwisp, but I think there is some opportunity for other cards. Maybe I just haven't played the deck enough, but I want to explore where this deck can go a bit more.
Considering how popular New Horizons is becoming, you may not want to expose your mana base with fetches and duals. I've played a few matches New Horizon's vs. DnT and the mono-white build crushed it like a bug everytime.

[Finn]

@unicoerner: That is a good question about Flickerwisp before Mangara. I am not sure Kirby got the same meaning from it that I did. Unfortunately it does no work either way. When you put the Flickerwisp ability on the stack targeting Mangara and then respond with Mangara, the Flickerwisp gets put under Mangara on the stack and therefor happens afterward.

[AggroSteve]

i maybe have to agree with morim brightsmoke, he is right about the fact that we can choose among a lot of quite good utility creatures even in mono white

just for example, what happened to good old samurai of the pale curtain?

what i want to say is that most builds are using or burrenton forge tender, or goldmeadow harrier, Blazelix used canonists instead in the mainboard, and actually that decision does seem all other than bad, specially in my eyes, since i am not satisfied with both forge tender and harrier, they are both just not my playstyle

i will try out in future

- 3x forge tender
+ 3x canonist

and

- 3x forge tender
- 1x jötun grunt
+2x samurai of the pale curtain
+2x student of warfare

what do you think about that?
i simply think we should try out more options, in fact war priest is not that bad of an idea, if your meta is heavy on enchantress, he is surely a lovely little guy
and we are probably the only deck that actually can adapt its mainboard to face a specific meta, so we could have an advantage from the beginning

[DalkonCledwin]

i maybe have to agree with morim brightsmoke, he is right about the fact that we can choose among a lot of quite good utility creatures even in mono white

just for example, what happened to good old samurai of the pale curtain?

what i want to say is that most builds are using or burrenton forge tender, or goldmeadow harrier, Blazelix used canonists instead in the mainboard, and actually that decision does seem all other than bad, specially in my eyes, since i am not satisfied with both forge tender and harrier, they are both just not my playstyle

i will try out in future

- 3x forge tender
+ 3x canonist

and

- 3x forge tender
- 1x jötun grunt
+2x samurai of the pale curtain
+2x student of warfare

what do you think about that?

so your currently running 6 forge-tenders? I don't really like the Samurai of the Pale Curtain over the Grunts. Mainly because the Grunts are able to deal with every card in the graveyard and the Samurai is not. That makes the Grunt more versatile in shutting down things like Tarmogoyf where as the Samurai cannot do that.

Additionally I prefer Figure of Destiny over Student of Warfare due to the fact that it can be pumped at instant speed and gets way bigger overall.

@ Finn: I would suggest emptying your Private Message box on this site as your box here is overflowing and it is impossible for anyone to send you new messages....

[Salogy]

i maybe have to agree with morim brightsmoke, he is right about the fact that we can choose among a lot of quite good utility creatures even in mono white

just for example, what happened to good old samurai of the pale curtain?

what i want to say is that most builds are using or burrenton forge tender, or goldmeadow harrier, Blazelix used canonists instead in the mainboard, and actually that decision does seem all other than bad, specially in my eyes, since i am not satisfied with both forge tender and harrier, they are both just not my playstyle

i will try out in future

- 3x forge tender
+ 3x canonist

and

- 3x forge tender
- 1x jötun grunt
+2x samurai of the pale curtain
+2x student of warfare

what do you think about that?

Switching the BFT for Canonists in your mainboard should work out, depending on your meta. Blue decks enjoy playing cantrips and library manipulation spells (Lim-Dul's Vault) and there are various ritual decks that dislike Ethersworn Canonist. BFT can answer burn, goblins, some of zoo's removal while Harrier taps down big fattys. Overall, a 2/2 body does fit better in the curve of the deck with the vials and the disruption is favorable even after the recent ban, that I run it in my version.

Regarding Samurai of the Pale Curtain, the card has been seeing zero to minimal play recently but could be popular once again. The card is non-synergistic with Jotun Grunt and Sword of Light and Shadow. SOTPC does answer graveyard recursion (academy ruins, Sword of the Meek) and abuse (*****, goyf, Terravore, etc.). The card should see more testing as I also considered it after facing multiple countertop thopter decks in my play area.

As for the Student of Warfare, I have had mixed responses about running the card. The card is a different Figure of Destiny and faces similar methods of removal. Both cards offer no disruption but can grow into a threat. I do not have much to say about Student of Warfare but would love to hear your analysis on the card.

[menace13]

Would not FoD be better against Zoo: gets to 4/4 faster than Student gets past 3/3?

[CaptShetz]

Student of Warfare has first strike, so it can still deal with everything out of zoo but goyf - but they are both dying to burn, unlike Grunt. I don't really see the pressing need to play either student or fod. I can get behind playing some number of kitchen finks - at least they impact the board, unlike some random dude like harrier or bft.

SotPC has the same problem as any creature against thoptercountertop: humility. Still, if you can manage to resolve one of your o-rings against humility, it should work out well.

[menace13]

Student of Warfare has first strike, so it can still deal with everything out of zoo but goyf - but they are both dying to burn, unlike Grunt. I don't really see the pressing need to play either student or fod. I can get behind playing some number of kitchen finks - at least they impact the board, unlike some random dude like harrier or bft.

SotPC has the same problem as any creature against thoptercountertop: humility. Still, if you can manage to resolve one of your o-rings against humility, it should work out well.

You misunderstood me. Not that Student's 1st strike can not deal with all of Zoo save KotR and Goyf, but more to do with escaping their 12 removal spells(obv PtE excluded). Finks is a turn 4 attack turn 5 thru Vial. FoD comes down turn 1, is awesome in a war of attrition as a 1 drop due to it reaching 4/4(although 5 mana) and no drawbacks unlike Grunt. Over the choice of THOSE 2 which do you think is better across the field?

[DalkonCledwin]

keep in mind you can in theory have Figure of Destiny pumped up to a 4/4 by turn 3 assuming you get it out on turn one and drew 3 plains in your opening hand or first 2 draws. Where as with Student of Warfare 7 pumps plus the first turn to play him to get him up to being a 4/4. Assuming you play him turn 1, pump him twice on turn 2, three times turn 3 and 2 more times on turn 4 that is an extra turn spent in pumping him into a 4/4.

Granted the Student of Warfare gets first strike and becomes a 3/3 with just 2 pumps, but really all that lets you do is eat Wild Nacatl and other relatively SMALL creatures easily enough. To really do the damage that you need to be able to do, you really need to pump the Student up to be able to do double strike damage and even then it dies to any 8/8 or bigger opponents.

What this deck really wants is an 8/8 first striker. To that end is why I highly suggest the Figure of Destiny. Unfortunately on its own the Figure of Destiny will not last very long. This is why I am heavily hoping for something that will help this deck deal with the threats posed by Zoo in Scars of Mirrodin. Something like a new cycle of "Sword of X and X" something that will give us access to protection from both Red and White in the same card, as well as something that gives protection from green in a separate card. As we desperately need both of these types of cards to survive in the new zoo heavy environment.

[AggroSteve]

no i am not running 6 forge tenders :P, i just wanted to say i will first try one configuration, then the other one

besides Samurai is not that much antisynergistic with grunt, since only permanents won't get into the graveyard, but instants and sorcerys will, and the reason i suggested him was allready understood, graverecursion, specially recurring EE, which really are a pain for us
plus samurai has no real drawback, since grunt is the only graveyard relying creature we have which we can support anyway but i do not like grunt as a 3 of

about student, i have done a few testings and i have to say he is no lategame bomb, because pumping him needs to much time and mana, but he is really strong if he lands on turn 1 with being able tu pump him 2 times in turn 2, but actually i am not that satisfied with him yet, but probably i should do more testing

[DalkonCledwin]

I think that of the two, Figure of Destiny and Student of Warfare I would prefer running Figure of Destiny for the sole reason that Figure of Destiny's pumping ability can be used at the end of my opponents turn with any and all left over mana that I didn't use during my or my opponents turns. That means that it is a more reliable method of using the mana, plus it gives me something to do with unused lands for that turn. The other advantage of the Figure in my mind is that it has more survivability over the other version and can even be used as a lategame threat if necessary which I don't think student of warfare can effectively be used as such.

[Finn]

@DalkonCledwin, thx for the inbox info. I did not know it was full.

IMO, Figure is superior to Student because its ability is not sorcery. I was going to list some advantages there, but there are so many. It is a world of difference. Even still, it is not a solution to any of the problems we have

Doesn't take out combo
Doesn't disrupt, reasonably get bigger than, or take out big, GY-dependent creatures
Doesn't provide card advantage for us
Doesn't beat Zoo or provide a reliable means to push them into our game plan.

I want to talk about that last one for a bit. I think we really need to buckle down and come up with a plan to beat Zoo consistently. Even online, I think Zoo is gaining ground. At my last count, I am not quite dead tied with Zoo since March. Let's improve that. I think we should completely abandon any serious design space that is intended to kill storm combo. So stuff like Canonist is not going in my lists. Well, I will keep on in my sb to fetch with tutors, but that is all. Beyond that I want all my cards to be less narrow. And I think we can afford to devote some extra design space to fighting Zoo.

The way I see it, the best plan for fighting Zoo is to get a critter equipped with a sword, but only if the remainder of the deck demands Zoo's removal. In other words, it won't work if Zoo is able to palm 2 Bolts and a Lavamancer activation for the turn you equip. You have to be prepared for the fact that he can get rid of the swords if he really wants to. On that note, Oblivion Ring will actively support the weapons by tempting his Grips and Pridemages. They stay. But what else can we use to get a sword on and fast - and on a protected creature.

I think an extra Mystic in the SB might be a good plan. I typically, but not always, win when I get equipment early and lose when I don't. Extra removal is something I am always looking for.
Refraction Trap
Condemn both seem reasonable to me in this role. Condemn would come in against a lot of decks, and that is a big help.

And I am definitely going to be keeping an eye on Cataclysm (sry, I have no recent results to report with this card)

[Salogy]

I agree that FoD is superior to Student of Warfare. Growing at instant speed is important but both die to bolts. Student, however, dies to bolt or path when you're about to level it up. Both cards would work better if this deck was running Ranger of Eos, but that would make the deck more like White Weenie and not DnT. AggroSteve must be right that Student is no lategame bomb. Mangara lock or equipped fliers are this deck's lategame bombs and require Stoneforge Mystic to hit early and equipment to maintain your board position.

CaptShetz, that is a good point I had not thought about. The countertop thopter decks in my meta run one Moat in the maindeck and one in the sideboard. Roughly 1/3 of them run Humility in the sideboard. This is probably because of the rise of Zoo and not because of fattys like Progenitus and Emrakul (has flying anyways). Countertop Thopters seems relatively easy to hate out, so there must be another card we could use. I've been using Ravenous Trap but the best Countertop Thopter pilots know I am using that card. Early EE locks and Countertop locks is my bigger problem versus that deck.

[justindz]

@DalkonCledwin, thx for the inbox info. I did not know it was full.

IMO, Figure is superior to Student because its ability is not sorcery. I was going to list some advantages there, but there are so many. It is a world of difference. Even still, it is not a solution to any of the problems we have

Doesn't take out combo
Doesn't disrupt, reasonably get bigger than, or take out big, GY-dependent creatures
Doesn't provide card advantage for us
Doesn't beat Zoo or provide a reliable means to push them into our game plan.

I want to talk about that last one for a bit. I think we really need to buckle down and come up with a plan to beat Zoo consistently. Even online, I think Zoo is gaining ground. At my last count, I am not quite dead tied with Zoo since March. Let's improve that. I think we should completely abandon any serious design space that is intended to kill storm combo. So stuff like Canonist is not going in my lists. Well, I will keep on in my sb to fetch with tutors, but that is all. Beyond that I want all my cards to be less narrow. And I think we can afford to devote some extra design space to fighting Zoo.

The way I see it, the best plan for fighting Zoo is to get a critter equipped with a sword, but only if the remainder of the deck demands Zoo's removal. In other words, it won't work if Zoo is able to palm 2 Bolts and a Lavamancer activation for the turn you equip. You have to be prepared for the fact that he can get rid of the swords if he really wants to. On that note, Oblivion Ring will actively support the weapons by tempting his Grips and Pridemages. They stay. But what else can we use to get a sword on and fast - and on a protected creature.

I think an extra Mystic in the SB might be a good plan. I typically, but not always, win when I get equipment early and lose when I don't. Extra removal is something I am always looking for.
Refraction Trap
Condemn both seem reasonable to me in this role. Condemn would come in against a lot of decks, and that is a big help.

And I am definitely going to be keeping an eye on Cataclysm (sry, I have no recent results to report with this card)

Hey Finn. What about Harm's Way? Works well against Lavamancer, Bolt, Chain Lightning and Tribal Flames, although it doesn't do anything against StP. Potentially a two-for-one in some circumstances.

[DalkonCledwin]

Hey Finn. What about Harm's Way? Works well against Lavamancer, Bolt, Chain Lightning and Tribal Flames, although it doesn't do anything against StP. Potentially a two-for-one in some circumstances.

the problem I have with Harm's Way is that it doesn't answer anything bigger than an X/2 creature. Which is a huge portion of the metagame. At least not without attacking and redirecting the damage done. It is an interesting combat trick for sure, but I don't think it is exactly what this deck wants to be doing.

[Curby]

Yeah, Harm's Way is much less powerful. Keep in Mind that StP and such can also be a 2-for-1 in combat: they block Grunt with two Nacatls/Apes, you remove one and the Grunt finishes the other.

[pcccp]

I played D&T with a green splash some while ago and had some success with it. I am now trying the mono white version and would ask if anyone have ever tested Martyr of Sands as a sideboard card or maybe maindeck.

[Curby]

Why wouldn't you use Forge-Tender or Kitchen Finks instead for defense and life gain? And what would you take out for Martyr? Cf. my sig.

EDIT: How much life do you usually get from a Martyr, and what's the average total benefit? As a best case, I can see it chump blocking and activating before combat damage, pretty much Martyring itself twice and gaining you 6-9 life. I can see it doing less on average. However, Finks can trade with Nacatl-sized critters and come back for more. They can also be Flickerwisped for a total of 8 life from one Finks. It costs three times as much, but like I said this role is seldomly needed in the early game, and we often have a Vial at 3 by the time we'd need such an effect. As an important point in a trick-heavy deck like D&T, Finks doesn't reveal your hand.

[Wisp]

how about cutting some condemn and possibly O-ring or goldmeadow harrie for some maze of ith

[Joe_C]

Tookk 4th at the Die Hard Games tournament in RI today. Played 2 kitchen finks main instead of the 3rd mangara and the 3rd oring. Didn't face one zoo deck today although there were a few present (25 players). I played cataclysm in my board and ran no combo hate. Played combo and won due to a miscalculation of my opponent. Cataclysm I don't think is going to stay in there. I think my next tournamenty board will be:

4 enlightened tutor
1 chalice of the void ( suck it hive mind. Deck)
3 orims chant
1 wheel of sun and moon
1 relic of progenitus
2 retribution of the meek
2 burrenton forge tender
1 ethersworn canonist

Finks was interesting, but unless you run into zoo I think the extra mangara and oring are more worth the space.

[LegacyDan]

Congrats on the T4 finish.

What other decks did you face? And how did the two finks work out for you?

[Curby]

@Joe_C, so I guess the Tenders in the side imply you run Harriers main? You say you run no combo hate but there's a Canonist (or up to 5 with Tutors) and three Chants in the side. If you really want to go there, how about taking out the Chants and putting Finks there for help against Zoo? Then the extra ORing and Mangara could go back in.

ORing has gotten some pretty negative comments recently, but you seem to want to put the third back in. What are your thoughts on it overall? Thanks!

[Joe_C]

I was prepared to face zoo and aggro today, but faced mono white life.deck(win), landstill(loss), NO countertop(win), hive mind.deck(loss), BANT(runnin new Jace) (win), ub tendrils( win by having grunt in play and him trying to painter grindstone me), and lost in top 4 to hive mind.deck again. Not that I'm super concerned about that deck spreading around to much.. But man, I have no good way to disrupt that deck at all. I may run chalice in my board next time since it is good against combo in general, and it shuts them down unless they can remove it... They primarily shoe and tell hive mind into play anyway, so if I have chalice in hand when they do it can hold them off until I find a removal spell for hive mind.... Cataclysm seems promising, didn't have the opportunity to put it to good use today though. Retribution came in against bant and the NO deck I faced, didn't get cast once, not sure that it's necessary.

This is the list I just placed 4th with
// Lands
9 [IA] Plains (2)
4 [LG] Karakas
3 [TE] Wasteland
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
2 Flagstones of Trokair

// Creatures
3 Jotun Grunt
4 Mother of Runes
4 Serra Avenger
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Mangara of Corondor
4 Flickerwisp
3 Goldmeadow Harrier
2 Kitchen Finks

// Spells
1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
1 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow
4 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
2 [LRW] Oblivion Ring

2 Retribution of the Meek
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 E tutor
3 Cataclysm
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Powder Keg
2 Burrenton Forge Tender

Harrier was good against bant, but otherwise underwhelming.. Oring is good against a lot of decks, it just sucks against zoo (or anything that runs pridemage). For what I expected to see at the tournament I was happy withbthe list, but the combo hate still deserves a few slots in there I think

[flyboyeze]

Hey im new to the deck but i feel i have a firm grasp on its capabilities, i was wondering if the new white "troll shroud leyline" will be in S/B's to hose combo decks like Hive Mind.dec and TES. Also has anyone considered the amazing abilities that the new Sword from M11 gives Mangara?! haste and vigilence, you can attack goblin's net a few creatures then tap remove then use karakas or AEther Vial a Flickerwisp while the ability is on the stack!? also it gives Flickerwisp a use besides just dying once its in play! idk to me it seems like a fine replacement for Sword of Light and Shadows as Black and White aren't a huge problem for the deck imo. BTW the latest DaT list that got 3rd looks pretty legit.

[pcccp]

I took D&T to a big german tournament with >130 players and made the 6. place going 6-1-1. I played against Zoo (loss), Merfolk (win), Elves (win), BW Rouge (tie), Lands.dec (win), UW Tempo (win), New Horizon (win), Staxx (win).

----------------
My list:

3 Oblivion Ring
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Aether Vial
3 Mangara of Corondor
4 Flickerwisp
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Jötun Grunt
4 Serra Avenger
1 Benevolent Bodyguard
2 Goldmeadow Harrier
4 Mother of Runes
9 Plains
1 Flagstones of T.
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Karakas

// Sideboard:
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Runed Halo
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 3 Kitchen Finks
SB: 1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
SB: 1 Aura of Silence
SB: 1 Tivadar of Thorn
SB: 3 Wing Shards
SB: 3 Enlightened Tutor

From my Opinion the Bodyguard was useless and the Goldmeadow Harrier useful most of the time. I will cut the Bodyguard and try something different in the free slot next time. O-Ring sucked against a lot of matchups but was really cool vs. Staxx. I think i will cut it down to 2.

[Joe_C]

Hey im new to the deck but i feel i have a firm grasp on its capabilities, i was wondering if the new white "troll shroud leyline" will be in S/B's to hose combo decks like Hive Mind.dec and TES. Also has anyone considered the amazing abilities that the new Sword from M11 gives Mangara?! haste and vigilence, you can attack goblin's net a few creatures then tap remove then use karakas or AEther Vial a Flickerwisp while the ability is on the stack!? also it gives Flickerwisp a use besides just dying once its in play! idk to me it seems like a fine replacement for Sword of Light and Shadows as Black and White aren't a huge problem for the deck imo. BTW the latest DaT list that got 3rd looks pretty legit.

I would not replace SOLS with any equipment. The lifegain is beneficial, and returning a creature is game winning most of the time. Also, pro white is huge since tons of decks run swords to plowshares or path to exile. It's too good not to run. If anything I would drop jitte, but situationally jitte holds a strong purpose in the deck as well

[supachai]

I've been playing a pretty stock list of DNT lately. I played a couple games against the 16 Lord build of Merfolk. The lords aren't too much trouble, but Kira is massive pain. All of our removal is targeted. In the end, I sideboarded in Cataclysm. Him, not knowing I had this, obviously didn't play around it and lost to a resolved one. However, I'm still worried about Kira. Does anyone have experience playing against this and have any suggestions? Would it be better to go for Jitte or SoFI in this case?

In regards to the ORing discussion, I've found it actually not bad in the Zoo matchup. Between equipment, Vals, and Orings, they often have more targets than Pridemages. At the very worst, we slow them down and get rid of their Pridemage with Oring. We need to keep up with their threats with our removal until we can get Avenger + Jitte/SoLS going.

[Oxmo39]

I've been playing a pretty stock list of DNT lately. I played a couple games against the 16 Lord build of Merfolk. The lords aren't too much trouble, but Kira is massive pain. All of our removal is targeted.

You can begin by targetting Kira by the Karakas' ability and then you can STP it.

[supachai]

Woah!! I totally didn't realize it's legendary. I was trying to waste a Jitte counter or Harrier activation and then Swords, but it still felt clumsy and their clock is way too fast when they start crapping lords. Just got to play Karakas around their Wastelands then...

[Penguinizer]

I went to a Legacy tournament at a local gaming convention running a fairly standard list with a tutor toolbox containing: Pithing Needle, Wheel of the Sun and Moon, Meekstone, Ethersworn Canonist, Tormod's Crypt and Aura of Silence. I dropped after the third round because I was playing like a 'tard for a few reasons. The main one being that I thought it'd be a good idea to play Werewolf amongst other things all night instead of sleeping. Let us speak no more of the tournament itself. Round 3 would have made the toughest bikers weep in shame.

So, anyways. Merfolk. I found Meekstone very useful. With the high amount of lords they run, they will have a lot of power 3+ creatures. You can hold them off/tap them with Harrier to slow the Merfolk player down considerably. I think the card is worth a slot in the toolbox in general, it's also good vs. Prog, Reanimator, Zoo and goyf in general.

[Finn]

Hey pcccp, that may be the best finish the deck has ever had at such a large tournament. There are just so few people playing this deck outside of MTGO. Big time congratulations. Can you send us a link to tournament info?

[pcccp]

The tournament results will be on deckcheck.net soon i hope. I keep you informed.

[Joe_C]

The tournament results will be on deckcheck.net soon i hope. I keep you informed.

Did you have any colored mana issues? I've been considering dropping the 2nd flagstones for wasteland # 4 but I have been skeptical since last tournament I had to mulligan a few times due to mana issues

[Hucastor]

Hello, I'm new to both the Source, as can be seen by my post count, and to playing Death and Taxes. As of now, I'm using a list that is identical to the second list that Finn posted in the opening post. However, I'm having trouble knowing when I should mulligan. I know that it will take practice to get used to, but if anyone could post some sample opening hands that one should keep, it would be very helpful.

[Curby]

There are no easy answers there. In short, you ask: "For the current game with the current opponent/deck, would 6 random cards from the deck be more likely to be better than the current hand? If so, mulligan." The problem is that this simple yes or no question is itself difficult to answer. It requires knowing your deck, your matchups, your role in these matchups, and then applying that knowledge to the seven cards in your opener and deciding which option is better.

For general info on how to mulligan, there is a "Required Reading" thread in the format development section that should give you good pointers.

[Penguinizer]

I'm curious. How do people feel about Goldmeadow Harrier? I have been underwhelmed in several situations.

[leander?]

I have actually been surprised by it's strength and versatility. He might look like crap and can be underwhelming in some obvious matchups, but he has in fact many uses. Not only can you stop a creature from attacking, he can also help you to push your creatures through or tap blockers to force your opponent to make bad blocks. Tapping a creature EO(opponents)T and tapping another one in yours is also very effective for getting (equipped) creatures through.

[Curby]

I'd add that those considering a singleton Meekstone to Tutor for can combine it with Harrier for fun times. (I'm aware of the poor synergy with Finks, Grunt, and Swords, but it's also nice to not die to opposing fat, swarms of big fish, etc.)

[pcccp]

Hey pcccp, that may be the best finish the deck has ever had at such a large tournament. There are just so few people playing this deck outside of MTGO. Big time congratulations. Can you send us a link to tournament info?

The T8 decklists can now be found at deckcheck:
http://www.deckcheck.net/event.php?event=Sommermercadiade+2010

I did not know that another d&t made t8 too that day.

[leander?]

Just to say it once more: that's a pretty impressive result, indeed.

The other D&T list is interesting:

3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Flickerwisp
2 Jötun Grunt
3 Kitchen Finks
3 Mangara of Corondor
4 Mother of Runes
4 Serra Avenger
3 Stonecloaker
3 Stoneforge Mystic

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte

2 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Karakas
12 Plains
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
3 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Enlightened Tutor
4 Ray of Distortion
1 Runed Halo
1 Sacred Ground
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Thorn of Amethyst

*Ethersworn Canonist. Some people have cutted it from the main, but I absolutely agree that it is still worth playing as a 2 or 3 of. It's obviously pretty good VS stormcombo, but also has it's uses VS cantrips and aggro decks that want to play multiple spells a turn like Zoo and Goblins. Like Finn once said: It slows your opponent down to your own tempo. Wich makes it much easier for you to control the game. It does have some antisynergy with the taxing aspect of the deck becouse if your opponent can only play one spell a turn he doesn't really mind your taxes, and the other way around: if you tax his manabase, he'll probably be casting one spell a turn anyway. Regardless of the Canonist.
*Stonecloaker. Cool :) Im not really sure how good it still is w/o damage on the stack, but I still like the card.
*Only 3 Karakas. That's a bit weird, I'm not sure why you'd want that.
*Emrakul SB. Dunno what that's for. Maybe VS Show and Tell or Hypergenesis? But how is an untutorable 1-of going to be changing that MU?

Anyway, I'm currently testing the standard list (see Finns and pcccp's lists) with 4 Mana Tithe's in the open slots (the slots were Finn plays Harrier and Condemn and pcccp played Harrier, the third O-Ring and Bodyguard). Tithe obviously has synergy with the other taxing effects, but also with Flickerwisp (becouse there's another reason to flicker one of your own lands). Besides that, it gives you an unexpected out to a great deal of problems you didn't really have an answer to previously (mainly VS control and combo). I guess you could take it out postboard (especially when on the draw) for hate + tutor and just hope your opponent will keep playing around it.

[Spiffy]

Hi guys!
I'm a D&T player, it's the only deck I'm playing at the moment.
I'm having great results with the deck! Incredibly fun to play, and basically, it has a lot of good matchups.
I won a small random-meta tournament a month ago at my local shop, and since then, never stopped to play it. (Here's my list http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=36879)
Apart from that, I joined this thread in order to compare my wiews about the deck with yours, and to receive some tips regard bad matchups. (In particularly Zoo and Landstill :frown: )

What's your gameplan against Zoo?? I've never win more than 3 games out of 10 against it...
I'd really like to know your strategy and SB options when facing a Zoo deck.

Thanks to all, and "Flick" them! :tongue:

[kiblast]

What's your gameplan against Zoo?? I've never win more than 3 games out of 10 against it...
I'd really like to know your strategy and SB options when facing a Zoo deck.

Thanks to all, and "Flick" them!



hi spiffy! welcome to the source, i hope you'll have some nice talk here to improve your D&T skills. See ya at our local shop.
have fun.

[AggroSteve]

its funny, more and more people from italy are joining this thread, me as well i am actually from italy, but i life near the border to austria where i am studying

@ spiffy:
i as well want to welcome you at the source , hopefully you will enjoy it here
just for curiosity, where exactly are you from?

[flrn]

I took a Death'n Taxes like deck featuring a green splash to our local tournament yesterday. 54 people attended, which led us to six rounds of magic. I played the following list:

1 Arid Mesa
1 Forest
3 Karakas
4 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
2 Savannah
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath

2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Mangara of Corondor
4 Mother of Runes
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Serra Avenger
2 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Aether Vial
3 Living Wish
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard:

1 Harmonic Sliver
3 Kitchen Finks
1 Mangara of Corondor
1 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
1 Tivadar of Thorn
1 True Believer
3 Krosan Grip
3 Defense Grid
1 Karakas

Round 1 against Blue Lands

I keep a mediocore hand in the first game, not knowing what deck he's playing. He has a fast Manabond followed by a Life from the Loam and an Intuition to get Academy Ruins, Mindslaver and some Utility Land. I scoop by the time he has 11 Mana, since he would hit the last land to get his Mindslaver Lock online the next turn and I'm there to play magic, not to stall around.

I boarded Krosan Grip for Mother of Runes, since he doesn't have any spot removal anyway. I get a very aggressive hand and I'm able to do quite some damage. I have to fight through 3 Maze of Ith and 1 or 2 Factories. I'm able to bring him down to 3 Life, but at the end of my turn he plays Intuition for Tabernacle and he can stabilize.

0-1

Round 2 Mirror Match

Seriously 54 People attended and we have to play the mirror. That's something. Well it's a fast story. Game 1 i have the Jitte, Game 2 he has the Jitte. Game 3 we both get our gameplan working. We deny each other the green mana (He was using Mangara on my basic forest) and have both a green hand, which we both can't play a card from. I draw 4 Mother of Runes from the top and he can only handle 2 of them. My Mother's give my critters the ability to fight through his defense and I'm hitting him down to 4 life, when he gets a Sword of Light and Shadow stuck to his Serra Avenger. The following turns my life drops down from 22 to 2 and his life goes like this 4 -> 7 -> 2 -> 5 -> 2 -> 5 -> 2 -> 5. It's his turn and he knows that i have critical on the board, since i could hit another critter in my last turn. He draws the Savannah from the top and plays Living Wish on Faerie Macabre, which makes me unable to do critical damage, since i only have 2 Mother of Runes and i have to give 2 critters protection from 2 colours. My only hope is to draw my green mana from the top. And i don't do that.

0-2

Round 3 against Bant

He played a weird build featuring Academy Ruins/Shackles/EE and Tarmogoyf and Rhox War Monk as critters.

First game i simply have too much critters for him to handle. Again I'm boarding Grips. In the second Game I'm able to hit a Defense Grid on turn 4, since he has no counters in hand. If that Defense Grid would have been a Choke (the card I intended to play, but couldn't find someone, who would lend me that card) I would've won the game. Two turns later he gets recurring EE online and I'm out of the game. Game 3 was the same as Game 2. A shame that i couldn't find any Wastelands/Gaddock Teeg both games, since they would've fucked up those recurring EE.

0-3

Round 4 against Sneak Attack (Dragon Stompy Shell)

I win the dice roll and i start with Land -> Aether Vial. Go. He kept a hand with first turn Chalice on 1. Too bad the Vial already hit the game. I get some Ports online and my Manadenial-Plan keeps him from playing anything.

Game 2 he goes for first turn Magus of the Moon. Too bad i got a Vial and a Jitte in hand. A Gaddock Teeg keeps him from playing Sneak Attack and i win again.

1-3

Round 5 against UB Dreadnought/Hexmage Combo

I keep a hand with 2x Aether Vial in the first game. The first Vial gets forced, but the second one gets through. The Vial allows me to hit critters and my Ports keep tapping his blue mana sources.

I board Grip's for Mother of Runes once again. In the second game i keep a hand with 4 lands, Vial, Krosan Grip and Living Wish. I know that he plays a strong manadenial plan, so I'm quite satisfied with that hand. He goes for first turn Thoughtseize after a Mulligan down to 5. By the time he see's my hand he can't believe that i kept that one. He takes my Vial. I draw a land, and make a landdrop. He draws and plays another Thoughtseize taking my Grip away. I play a land and Living Wish for Kitchen Finks. The next turn i play the Kitchen Finks and they go all the way.

2-3

Round 6 against Ur Dreadstill

I got the first turn Vial again and I'm able to hit a Serra Avenger and a Gaddock Teeg. I topdeck a Karakas and play Living Wish for Mangara. My opponent scoops.

Once again Mother's out, Grips in. That might be not the best choice there, since he has Firespout off the board, but i didn't want to take out other cards.

I keep a very aggressive hand with double Goyf, Teeg and double Wasteland and some coloured Mana. I keep drawing good cards and his manabase gets screwed all day long. I love how the deck can go aggro with a good Manadenial-Plan. It worked out once again.

3-3

In the end I'm quite satisfied with the result. It was my first time playing creatures in a tournament environment, since I'm normally playing combo. After playing the deck i would made some minor changes.

Main: -2 Canonist, -1 Plains ; +1 Gaddock Teeg, +1 Knight of the Reliquary +1 Arid Mesa
Board: -1 True Believer, -1 Tivadar of Thorn - 3 Defense Grid ; +3 Choke, +1 Ethersworn Canonist, +1 Tabernacle

Though luck playing the mirror. All 3 matches felt like a coinflip. Every time the Manadenial-Plan worked out i won the game. The deck might not have that much "tricks" as normal Death'nTaxes-Builds but it can go more aggressive due to that. I don't know if this report is posted in the right thread, but i couldn't think of any other archetype thread to post in.

[Spiffy]

hi spiffy! welcome to the source, i hope you'll have some nice talk here to improve your D&T skills. See ya at our local shop.
have fun.

Hey Kiblast!

You know..we are not here to push forward turtles! :cool:

[Finn]

Spiffy, this is from the opening post. I keep the thread mostly up-to-date.

Zoo
-average matchup
-You are definitely control
-Your goals are to neutralize his ability to attack you while you get a creature to connect with a weapon. This commonly involves some combination of Mother of Runes, Sword of Fire//Ice, Sword of Light//Shadow, and perhaps Umezawa's Jitte with some other creature to attack with. If you can get a sword equipped with a decent life total, you have a really good shot at victory. If you do not, it is going to take some good fortune and tight gameplay to pull it off. Sword of Light//Shadow on a Serra Avenger is the best scenario, but all the weapons come in handy from time to time. The matchup is hard to nail down. A single Jotun Grunt is a great boon. But two Grunts early on usually results in a dead card. Mangara is occasionally a fantastic game breaker, but is equally as often just an expensive lightning rod. Flickerwisp sometimes 2-1's with Oblivion Ring or Mystic and then seals the deal with unblockable damage, but occasionally just untaps something and dies to a Lavamancer. Wastelands and Ports can deny him a critical color (I always like green best here), but if Zoo gets mana flooded, all you did was delay yourself. This is why I recommend sticking to the equipment focus. It is more consistent. Kitchen Finks is a card that can buy you some time and perhaps card advantage. It is specifically for this matchup. You will also want extra removal if you have it in your board. Finally, Burrenton Forge-Tender is a perfect creature to give a Jitte to.
-board out 1 Mangara, 1 Flickerwisp, and some Harriers or Oblivion Rings. Board in the last Mystic, extra creature removal, the last Grunt, and Finks if you have them.

[pcccp]

I played the GW list before and kitchen finks + flickerwisp was the combination to beat zoo and other burn spell powerd aggro decks.

[Finn]

That is very true.

[Joe_C]

@Finn: you don't recommend boarding in cataclysm against zoo?

[Spiffy]

Thx for your help Finn!

I know that the control route is the best way to go against a Zoo deck, but is not as easy as it seems. Lightning Bolt, Path to Exile, Helix, Punishing Fire (for "Rubin" version) Lavamancers, Chain Lightning..THEY HAVE TOO MANY REMOVAL SPELLS, to cast in response to the equip ability, and our MOM rarely survive an entire turn. The manadenaial-plan is the one I choose most of the time, as they need all of the 3 colors in the same way (agree green is the best to cut off) but, i know..zoo getting mana flooded= we lose, without a chance to do anything else. I'll test the Flickerwisp-Kitchen Finks stuff combined with 6 removal spells (Swords and Condemn), trying to make them waste their cards, and praying they get mana flooded at that point! The key to succeed is more psychological than deck strategy IMHO. You must be perfect in order to beat Zoo.

As for Landstill...almost a bye for them.

[Maëlig]

Is it just me or do you also feel like the deck has really benefited from the last metagame evolution, namely emrakul popping up everywhere? Between o.ring, mangara and (most importantly) karakas, I would feel very well equipped against it. Makes me want to sleeve up the deck again.

[Penguinizer]

I've found O-Ring and Mangara to be good against Show and Tell decks especially with how common Emrakul is compared to Progenitus. However, the best metagame shift was the decrease in the amount of combo. Storm was a terrible matchup, but stuff like Painter is easier to deal with.

[pcccp]

I took mono white D&T to a 46 man tournament and made 10. place.

1. round: combo elves (2-0)
2. round: dredge (0-2)
3. round: 15 lord merfolks (1-2)

(funny story: while traveling to the location we playtested D&T against the UB Merfolk list from saito and D&T went 12 - 1 preboard.)

4.round: 4c countertop (2-0)
5.round: enchantress (2-1)
6.round: aggro loam (2-0)

Some conclusions:

I tested a new card that i think has potential: Loyal Sentry.

Loyal Sentry
Creature - Human Soldier 1/1, W (1)
When Loyal Sentry blocks a creature, destroy that creature and Loyal Sentry.

The good thing about this creature is that it stops the attacker before it can deal damage. (good vs. Terravore or Dreadnought)
You can vial it in to have uncounterable removal but the really cool thing is that you can bounce or flicker him in response to his trigger. I will try out Stonecloaker + Loyal Sentry soon. With more people playing Survival with Loyal Retainers or Emrakul now Stonecloaker could be a good answer to that combo.

[AggroSteve]

loyal sentry cought my eye as well, and a list for a more aggro, or aggro-control oriented meta, with him and stonecloakers could definitely be extremely strong

@ pcccp: i would be quite interested in your list, i was wondering how your main and sideboard ar looking like, specially since you also beat enchentress, and an UB list of merfolk, and that quite easy

besides i was getting interestet in following creature

War Priest of Thune
Creature Human Cleric - 1W
2/2

When War Priest of Thune enters the battlefield, you may destroy target enchantment.

what do you guys think about this creature, i think it has a lot of potential

[LegacyDan]

IMHO Loyal Sentry and Warpriest of Thune serve almost no role in advancing the deck. What are you guys taking out? These proposed creatures only have one role, and in most cases they would appear to be useless.

[AggroSteve]

that might be true but, we do actually have 2 to 3 mainboard slots which we can dedicate to the current meta, so these creatures would definitely serve their role, but just as you said, these creatures would serve only this specific purpose

just think of warpriest for example as non counterable enchantmentremoval at instant speed with vial, not that it would matter that it is not counterable against enchantress, one of our most feared matchups

i did not say he is a bomb or a must-play, but he deserves some attention

[Penguinizer]

I would rather play Harrier than Loyal Sentry. Harrier also stops flying re-animation targets and Show and Tell targets unlike Loyal Sentry. This has proven very handy. As for War Priest. I was also thinking about it, but I decided that an Elvish Hexhunter or Kami of Ancient Law would be better. Although they have to be sacrificed, you can play them before counterbalance hits the field. I just wish they'd also hit artifacts.

[eq.firemind]

As for War Priest. I was also thinking about it, but I decided that an Elvish Hexhunter or Kami of Ancient Law would be better. Although they have to be sacrificed, you can play them before counterbalance hits the field. I just wish they'd also hit artifacts.
In case you need a creature to fight enchantments, check Wispmare.

[pcccp]

@ pcccp: i would be quite interested in your list, i was wondering how your main and sideboard ar looking like, specially since you also beat enchentress, and an UB list of merfolk, and that quite easy


I lost the first game to enchantress and won the two others. In both games after sideboarding i had 1 aura of silence and 3 enlightened tutor. I boarded the loyal sentrys out for that.

In game 2 he has only 2 lands and i can port him for some rounds. Later i have Aura of Silence and he scoops. In game 3 he can establish solitary confinement but i have vial @ 3, 2 Flickerwisp, Mangara & Karakas. I flicker his Enchantress Presence for 2 rounds and remove his words of war with Mangara. He scoops because he cannot get any win condition online since i can always vial in mangara at the end of the turn and he has no instant removal for that.

[Penguinizer]

I just went 2-2-1 at a local tournament, about 30 give or take a few people.

My list:
14x Plains
4x Karakas
3x Mishra's Factory

4x Mother of Runes
3x Goldmeadow Harrier
4x Serra Avenger
3x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Jötun Grunt
4x Flickerwisp
3x Mangara of Corondor

4x Aether Vial
4x Swords to Plowshares
Basilisk Collar
Umezawa's Jitte
3x Oblivon Ring
Sword of Fire and Ice
Sword of Light and Shadow

SB:
3x Burrenton Forge-tender
3x Wing Shards
3x Enlightened Tutor
Ethersworn Canonist
Wheel of the Sun and Moon
Pithing Needle
Tormod's Crypt
Meekstone
Aura of Silence


Round 1: Darkdepths/Masknought 0-2
Both times I manage to get a harrier for one dread/marit lage, but he gets another. Game 2 I get a quick karakas+harrier, but he gets 2 dreads out in the first 2 turns. Nothing I did could have helped.

Round 2: Aeon Bridge, 2-1
Game 1, he manages to resolve an emrakul. I get hit once and am left with a Harrier+plains. I stall for a few turns before not drawing a karakas. Games 2-3 I have Oblivion Rings and whatnot for Emrakul, and manage to win with a Flickerwisp/Serra Avenger

Round 3: UR Dreadstill. 2-0
I have removal for his dreads and manage to resolve an avenger. I slowly whittle down his life. I just have more removal than he has creatures.

Round 4: Lands.dec, 1-1-1
Game 1, I disrupt his intuition for EE recursion with an EoT vialed Jötun Grunt. I win with said grunt and a flickerwisp.
Game 2, he slowly gains the upper hand. Eventually has a vial at 0 and 1. He then beats me with Mishra's Factory
Game 3, we had 9 minutes left. He hadn't done so well and just wanted to go home, so we tied. I was also pretty hungry, and didn't think I'd have another chance.

Round 5: UW Tempo
Game 1, he resolves a mother. I stp, he FoWs. He gets an online Jitte. I scooped.
Game 2, double serra avenger overwhelms him.
Game 3, He slowly overwhelms me after removing my SoLaS with an Aura of Silence and my Jitte with his own. I manage to lock down his jötun grunt, but his 4/4 flier (some sphinx from IA) and 1/1s overwhelm me.

I tended to side out Grunts against non-grave dependent decks in favor of bringing in E. Tutors and hate. I also sided out irrelevant equipment and a few Orings if I brought in Tutors. I think this might have bitten me in the ass against UW Tempo.I just had no idea how to SB against it.

Otherwise, I was fairly satisfied with my list. The only thing I'll probably chance is removing BFT from my SB. Zoo appears to be pretty rare in my meta. I saw no Zoo or Goblins at the tourney, nor have I seen them in some time. What should I play in their place, more tutor package stuff?

[Curby]

Your most significant change from the accepted list is the manabase. Did you leave out the Wastes and Ports because they were unavailable or did you think Factories and basics would meet a particular need? Whenever someone asks for recommendations and isn't using the accepted list, I usually suggest trying that first. Generally, unless you have particular meta-related concerns, it's best to start with the accepted version and tweak after you get used to it. Even if you're trying to transform the deck entirely, you won't know if your modified design is superior unless you have some baseline to compare against.

Thanks for the report!

[Penguinizer]

I don't own Wastelands at this point in time. It's one of the cards I'll get when I have the cash. The Mishra's Factories were there as a budget thing as well. I find that they're good in some matchups. Goblins in particular. It can also eat an edict effect or act as a chump blocker if need be.

Next tournament, I'll probably try 3x Kitchen Finks in the SB instead of the BFTs. It seems like it could be solid against Zoo.

[Maëlig]

Nice report, thanks! I would be curious to know what you sided in and out between each games.
Harrier seems great against the decks you were paired up with. Even against UW tempo it seems decent, you can tap mother to sword her (if you let her loose summoning sickness). I guess I should give the little guy a second chance.
I'm curious, in which MU exactly would you side in tutor + needle or tutor + meekstone? They are great cards in particular situations for sure, but I've found that most decks against which you want to see them also play alot of counters or ways to destroy artifacts so that the risk to get 2-1ned is just too high to make it worth it. Or am I missing something?
I wouldn't recommend taking out BFT. I find it strange that you have so few zoo or gobs in your meta, but be aware that they tend to randomly pop back up. Anyways, you can also use BFT to protect your crew against firespout, which sees quite alot of play. If you want to add something to your tutor package (although not necessary by any means) I would recommend absolute law. It basically says "I win" against goblins, and can be randomly usefull against sweepers. Might be an idea if you really want to give BFT the kick (makes you gain 2 slots while staying somewhat protected vs red).

[Penguinizer]

The Meekstone is against Dreadnoughts. I swear I attract them like a magnet. Out of 5 rounds, 3 decks had them. Pithing Needle is a sort of jack of all trades. It can be useful in small ways in many matchups. I've had it help against Merfolk, UW Tempo, Sensei's Divining Top and some other cards.

I sided it in against all of them. I forgot my precise SB plans, mainly since they were thought up on the spot, but I vaguely remember what I sided in. No idea what I sided out though. Jötun Grunt tended to go in non-aggro matchups that don't need grave hate.

Round 1: 3x Tutor, Meekstone, Pithing Needle (for Hexmage and Mask), 3x Wing Shards.

Round 2: 3x Tutor, Meekstone, Pithing Needle (Bridge) , 3x Wing Shards (Hits Emrakul)

Round 3: 3x Tutor, Meekstone, Probably Wing Shards.

Round 4: 3x tutor, Crypt, Wheel.

Round 5: 3x Tutor (beginning to see a pattern? :P), Pithing Needle, 3x Wing Shards. Out: 1x Mother of Runes, 3x Grunt (This is something I think I did wrong. I should have kept them.) 1x Oblivion Ring, a few more that I forgot.

None of these were pre-planned. I tended to SB reactively, and quite probably didn't make the best choices in some cases.

[Maëlig]

mm I'm not sure siding in tutor + meekstone is a great idea against dreadstill, for instance. They play so many counters that you run a high risk of having your tutor resolve just to get meekstone countered (although I guess that if you make it daze / pierce proof it's slightly better), which is card disadvantage and a big tempo loss. Same goes against UW tempo for needle (what did you name, wayfarer?). Speaking more generally, I think many players of this deck tend to go too far with the tutor plan, clogging up the board with too many singletons and siding it in in too many MUs. What is your opinion on this?
Also, why didn't you side in aura of silence against dreadstill and UW tempo?

[Penguinizer]

I have no idea actually. Also, against UW Tempo, I only drew it once. It was to name Mother of Runes. It gave me a few more turns, but I still got overwhelmed. I had no Mother at the time, but he did as a note. Otherwise I would have named Wayfarer. As I said, these SB plans were thought up on the spot and weren't that good.

[AggroSteve]

i just found a awesome little creature in the scars of mirrodin spoiler

leonin arbiter 1W

Creature - Cat Cleric
Players can't search librarys. Any Player may pay 2 for that player to ignore this effect until end of turn.

this little guy could wreck the day for every multicolored deck, by not allowing them to search their library with their fetchlands

what do you guys think?

[Philipp2293]

It has some antisynergie with Mystic, but it should be a consideration for sure.

[majikal]

It's not very hard to Vial in Stoneforge and just pay 2.

[Penguinizer]

I just wish it was an artifact. I have no idea what to cut from the SB. I just don't think there are any cards that immediately shine out as being immediately cut worthy. I still really want to have it as a 2-of MB and a third in the SB possibly. Basilisk collar is one card I'll quite possibly be removing even though I like it's synergy with Mom. As well as helping to stabilize against aggro. It also lets us use our puny 1/1's to take out goyfs and other big creatures. I found it particularily good against various dreadstill and reanimator decks.

[Vacrix]

It's not very hard to Vial in Stoneforge and just pay 2.
Exactly my thoughts. It shuts down way more of the opponent's deck than it does your own, or else you should just board it out. Now Vial activation at 2cc is so much stronger than it was before because you now have the option to disrupt the opponent while before Vial at 2cc was primarily used for combat tricks.

[leander?]

Do we know anything about the p/t? Might be a 0/1 ;)

[Gocho]

It's 2/2

[eq.firemind]

Arbiter screws Enlightened Tutor sideboard, but singlehandly solves some problems you usually solve with SB: Natural Order, Entomb, Survival of the Fittest and Infernal Tutor.

All in all, the cat seems to make it and replace weaker links of the deck like 3rd Oblivion Ring or Goldmeadow Harrier

[leander?]

Yeah, in that case I really think it deserves 2 or even 3 MB spots instead of cards like Harrier. You can just board him out in matchups where you want Tutor.

[Finn]

My initial thought is that it is a 3 or 4-of in the main, actually. I am figuring that this card is worth making significant changes to the focus of this deck. It really taxes everything this deck has any problems with.

[Penguinizer]

I would probably be ready to cut both Harrier and Oblivion Ring to 2-ofs and moving Basilisk Collar to the SB to fit 3 MB. The one problem I'm having is that now the Toolbox is harder to play. Would it make sense to switch back to a toolboxless SB with this card?

I'm considering having a few more niche artifacts (like the new Swords from scars) in the SB as a Stoneforge toolbox expansion. Allowing me to slot out the less relevant artifacts.

[LegacyDan]

I am not even using a toolbox SB, so this Leonin will be MUCH easier to fit in.

I went 3-1 in the last Legacy tourney, making 3rd place. It was fun, and I really liked Sword of Body and Mind. It just does good things.

[thorin_the_king]

would it be worth to play ghost quarter instead of rishadan port with this new aven mindcensor guy from scars of mirrodin? or it would be overkill?

[Saff]

Could you tell me which matchups are best and worst for this deck?
Is there any card that opponent could side in and which completely ruin this deck?

[Penguinizer]

Bad Matchups:
Storm Combo. Fuck Storm.
Countertop tends to also be pretty bad if you can't resolve a vial.
Those are horrible matchups based on my personal experiences.


Ok:
Merfolk is 50-50 based on my experience. It really depends on what you resolve and how many lords you shoot down.
Zoo is either ok or bad. I don't have much experience with it though.
Lands: Jötun Grunt and the toolbox can seriously hurt Lands' grave recursion. It can go either way.

Good:
Dreadnough based decks, at least from experience. While this sounds silly, they largely run 4 dreads and a few smaller things as wincons. We have 4 STP, 3x Mangara, 3x Oblivion ring and 4x Flickerwisp at the very least. I also personally have Harrier and Basilisk collar that also help. Each time I've managed to just force removal through their counters.


Those are the ones that popped to my head.

Also, Dystopia, EE and Deed can be pretty painful.

[LegacyDan]

would it be worth to play ghost quarter instead of rishadan port with this new aven mindcensor guy from scars of mirrodin? or it would be overkill?

I might receive hate for this, but if the Leonin Arbitor makes the cut Ghost Quarter might be able to replace Wasteland (kidding, or am I?).

[Penguinizer]

I think 4 Wasteland+3 Quarter would be good. Quarter is bad if they happen to have the removal spell for it.

[Curby]

Hey guy's it's still a 2/2 (that's why it doesn't cost 4 (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/51.html)). I could see it replacing Ports at least as much as Wasteland just because Ghost Quarter just isn't that good when the 2/2's NOT in play. Perhaps a split of 3 Waste 2-3 Ports and 2-3 Quarters if you want to up the number of colorless land you run, and/or slightly increase the amount of land destruction.

[Justin]

I think 4 Wasteland+3 Quarter would be good. Quarter is bad if they happen to have the removal spell for it.

That's what Mother of Runes is for, right?

[LegacyDan]

Anyone consider PTE with this?

[Curby]

Shrug, same argument applies against it. PTE is better with Arbiter in play and worse without, especially if we're trying to attack the manabase. It seems more important to me to ensure that we never give them extra land rather than ensure that we never give them extra life. Would you disagree?

[LegacyDan]

I have honestly been debating that myself. Half of the time I would rather give them land than the extra life. And these proposed changes might be the time to test out some new decklists.

[Penguinizer]

I agree. I think it's time to try some weird shit. I'm curious to see how these 4x Arbiter lists work. I probably will just be slotting him into the current normal build with some SB tweaks.

[overseer1234]

Maybe we could just reverse engineer the deck to one of it's older incarnations thus playng hokori dusk drinker and mana tithe again and play more like a tempo deck. This could work pretty good with the new hatebear....

[LegacyDan]

Going back to Hokori and Mana Tithe? It might do well with Cataclysm.

[Penguinizer]

I think that's a bit too much to be honest. It might possible even be it's own distinct variant though. I don't really think it'll work that well though.

[LegacyDan]

Yeah, Belcher kinda laughs at the Hokori......

[Penguinizer]

I just think it's too slow. I think that Ghost Quarter could be interesting though. That's something I believe is worth looking into. It also means we have more manabase hate. Wasteland, Arbiter and Quarter should seriously hinder more fragile manabases.

[Vacrix]

Yeah, Belcher kinda laughs at the Hokori......
You mean Combo in general laughs at DnT.

I like this new bear. Ghost Quarter becomes a virtual-Stripmine. How do you guys propose to run a 4 Waste 3 Ghost configuration though? Are you cutting Port?

[Penguinizer]

Mana denial to mana denial doesn't seem like a bad trade. Port is one of those cards that I've never been a massive fan of though.

[leander?]

The good thing about port is that it's manadenial without putting yourself back in development as well.
The reason many players dislike it is that it's strength is mainly noticed by your opponent not being able to cast anything relevant turn after turn becouse the one land he is needing is tapped all the time. And if another land becomes more relevant, you can even change your mind.

[Finn]

My advice: Good decks use good cards. Ghost Quarter and Path to Exile both suffer from the same problem - they suck. How often has the life gain from STP actually mattered? Now I can admit that I am keen on finding an adjunct for it, but Path will, as Kirby essentially said, undo the benefits of Arbiter as often as it compounds them. I will still stick with Condemn for now.

4 Port
3 Wasteland
4 Swords to Plowshares
0 Ghost Quarter
0 Path to Exile

Even in games where you are able to get Arbiter out before your opponent's turn 2, Port will better than Ghost Quarter.

[Vacrix]

Mana denial to mana denial doesn't seem like a bad trade. Port is one of those cards that I've never been a massive fan of though.
Sure but the advantage of Port is that it does something on its own. Rarely will Ghost Quarter be good without Arbiter. So I question cutting them, especially if you aren't running the full playset of Arbiters as to maximize the chances of Ghost Quarter being a Stripmine.

I'm with Finn on this one. Ghost Quarter and PtE have no place in DnT, even with access to Arbiter you are still running cards that suck without Arbiter.

[Raimundo]

May be it's a good idea to try both: Ghost Quarter and Wasteland.
The advantage of Ghost Quarter and Arbiter is the possibility to attack the mana base of players with a lot of basic lands (e.g. merfolk).
PtE has the advantage that it takes out big cratures without spending to much live...

[Justin]

Just because Leonin Arbiter may make the cut in D&T, it doesn't mean that you should run cards like Path to Exile or Ghost Quarter. You've only got four Arbiter and you will only draw one half the time (and you still have to stick it on the board). Plus there are some matchups against top-tier decks (such as mono-blue Merfolk) in which he is nothing more than a bear.

If you wanted to go with the "players can't shuffle thier libraries" theme, you should probably run Aven Mindcensor in addition to Arbiter, and only then should you consider Path or Ghost Quarter. But really, would such a deck be any better than most current D&T lists? I doubt it. Do you really want to cut your Flickerwisps to pursue a theme, that more often than not, won't pay off for you in a major way?

[AggroSteve]

Path to Exile would never make it in my list, even if i would use 4 arbiter because Swords to Plowshares is better in any way and has a way minor drawback reguarding our strategy, but maybe a 2 of ghost quarter can make it in there, but only as addiction to my 4 wastelands and 3 ports
only problem with this is that we lose more and more white mana, if that will disturb me, i will immedieately cut the quarters again

quarter would only make the cut due to the following reasons:

it can slow opponent if you quarter his land during his upkeep (nothing special though)
it is a strip mine with arbiter (almost at least)
it is occasionally a strip mine without arbiter if opponents play very few basics (very situationally, and unlikely to happen most of the times)

i would say including quarter is everyones choice but in my opinion it would never replace a single copy of our other manadenial-lands, and in that case it could never become more than a 2 of IMO for the simple reason that consistency is more important

i hope this post was able to help everyone to understand that both, Path to Exile and Ghoust Quarter(this one is a bit metadependant) are suboptimal cardchoices, which normaly wouldn't make the cut.

[Penguinizer]

Here's a list I'm thinking of running when I get my hands on the Hatebears:
10x Plains
4x Karakas
4x Wasteland
3x Mishra's Factory

4x Mother of Runes
2x Goldmeadow Harrier
4x Serra Avenger
3x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Leonin Arbiter
2x Jötun Grunt
4x Flickerwisp
3x Mangara of Corondor

4x Aether Vial
4x Swords to Plowshares
Umezawa's Jitte
3x Oblivon Ring
Sword of Fire and Ice
Sword of Light and Shadow

SB:
3x Wing Shards
3x Tormod's Crypt
3x Kitchen Finks
3x Ethersworn Canonist (Or anything really. No real idea as to what run here.)
1x Leonin Arbiter
1x Sword of Body and Mind
1x Jötun Grunt

2x Jötun Grunt in the MB with 1 in the side, combined with 3x Crypt, should be sufficient gravehate for a lot of matchups. 7 hatebears post-side with mana-denial should make the combo matchup a bit more bearable. Wing Shards has proven itself a fantastic card against Aggro, and Kithen Finks also helps in that matchup. The Sword is in the SB so I can switch swords around depending on the matchup. Otherwise, fairly standard build.

I could probably cut Goldmeadow Harrier completely, but I still like it in some matchups. I could possibly remove the sword in favor of a third on in the SB. This depends largely on the meta at the time, as well as how the sword performs.

[LegacyDan]

If you are worried about SoBaM's performance, let me assure you that it will not dissappoint you. I ran 1x SoBoM, SoFaI, SoLaS and Jitte last week. It was AWESOME, even causing two people to scoop when it landed on the field EOT.

[Alcibiades]

I kinda think that, at least for now, this deck could use Ethersworn Canonist in the maindeck (in addition to Leonin Arbiter). Finn is right to remind us that decks should be slow to play cards that suck, and I think the attention that Path to Exile and Ghost Quarter are receiving is, accordingly, unwarranted, but the Survival-Madness deck is *everywhere*, and Canonist (like Arbiter) is awesome against it. It's also randomly good against storm combo and whatnot.

I'm also experimenting with a more aggressive version that runs Chrome Moxes. Arbiter rocks on turn 2, but he can just win games singlehandedly on turn 1. Equipment cards, in particular Sword of Fire and Ice, are especially important in this version, as they help to compensate for the card-disadvantage you suffer from Chrome Mox. I suspect that I'll abandon this strategy eventually, though.

[Finn]

Alcibiades, I think a lot of people are kicking around the idea of Chrome Mox. I know I have. I bet it would end up going radically in a different direction that would look a bit like Faerie Stompy in white or even Stax.

Also, I am not ready to even try Canonists in the main right now. In fact, I might sooner include Orim's Chant over more Canonists in the board. Storm has a free ride against us until we get two lands and their anti-hate cards only need to handle permanents. Orim's Chant makes their life harder way more than more Canonists. I realize that you are thinking something different - as you are talking about a main deck use. But what are you going to cut for it? We are all about to make room for a different hate bear right now.

Also, unless anyone wants to posit that Ghost Quarter is going to be a better card than Wasteland, we should put the discussion to rest as the heavy mana denial versions of this deck cant fit 4 Wastelands.

[Tanarin]

Hmm... I dunno if rushing out a Leonin arbiter is the best use for him. Should D&T be running him, of course. I am almost tempted to say he is better as a post Cataclysm play. Maybe the deck is better off bringing Cataclysm back into the main and going from there.