[Deck] Death and Taxes [Archive] - Page 6

Lorgalis

09-16-2010, 06:58 PM

Also, I am not ready to even try Canonists in the main right now. In fact, I might sooner include Orim's Chant over more Canonists in the board. Storm has a free ride against us until we get two lands and their anti-hate cards only need to handle permanents. Orim's Chant makes their life harder way more than more Canonists. I realize that you are thinking something different - as you are talking about a main deck use. But what are you going to cut for it? We are all about to make room for a different hate bear right now.

Just chiming in to say I don't agree with that. Almost all storm decks pack Duress (Not Toughtseize!) main, and they're not going to side it out. Duress laughs at Chant. When I play TES, the worst starting I can face is turn 1 Mother, turn 2 Canonist. Only a Krosan Grip/Wipe Away (there is 1 of each in the side) can solve this, and Wipe Away just buys me a turn. Also, Canonist beats for 2 (making the Ad Nauseam plan harder), is annoying in general (no multiple cantrip, no wish -> answer the same turn...) and you can fetch it with E-tutor (and Arbiter is quite poor against combo, except Doomsday, so it will get sided out). Finally, decks like TES can rebuild after a back-breaking Chant/Silence faste than you think if you put pressure on them.

Canonist >>>> Chant/Silence against TES, DD and the like.

Aside from that, I've been toying with the Chrome Mox idea. I usually play with G splash, so having Mox would permit, aside from broken 1st-turn-Arbiter-openings, to make up for the potential loss of value in my fetchlands (which is not that awful as I only run 4). This hatebear has a lot of potential.

Finn

09-16-2010, 08:53 PM

The devil may be in the details here, Lorgalis.

You are not going to be nabbing Chants from my hand in game 1 because they are coming in from the side board. And the Tuto -> Canonist technique is not changing in any way. The question is whether or not to have more Canonists in the SB. First off, the ability to disrupt on turn one forces storm pilots to decide if they are going to go for it or not. Without Chants (or any of the various other cards like it), they know for sure that they can. That is a pretty big disadvantage for D+T.

Also, if you are playing against me in game 2 and your Duresses are still in your deck, what do you hope to get? Game 1 here are your options.

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
2 Condemn
1 Oblivion Ring
3 Equipment

...in other words, nothing.

This is all the legal targets in my current (not tuned for storm) list for game 2:

4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Aether Vial
1 Runed Halo

Seeing as how I am very likely to be going 1st, your new list of legal targets are:

4 Aether Vial
1 Runed Halo

Are you actually going to be keeping Duress in to hit these cards? I sure hope so if you are facing me. But you are not an idiot, so you are not going to. That means that the Duresses come out and the appropriate hate comes in. That is, spot removal and bounce come in. And your combo is essentially the same. But if I am playing Orim's Chant (all of this assumes that know my deck) you really need to keep the Duresses in. Now you have specialty hate for just a few cards. And you still need to keep your other hate in. Duress does not help against permanents and Wipe Away can't do jack to a Chant. I am not mentioning the simplicity of dropping a Canonist and beating. That is, Chants require a spare mana and some thought - and these are worth considering. But the demands placed on the opponent's deck is far greater with Chant as well.

One more thing: Arbiters don't seem to do much against TES. I kinda didn't think about that before.

menace13

09-16-2010, 10:39 PM

I think Canonist is good in the main. How many times does DnT even cast more than 1 spell a turn? What, with Vial and only like 6 non creature non artifact spells?

My freind Blazelix has the most showings-50+- with DnT online and at 50% cash out to joining ratio.
The deck is in 2nd place since Legacy came online in April this year, in terms of prize cash outs and he has over half those placings-without him the deck would be in like 9th place-.

He plays 3 Canonist main and never looked back. The card is good in a slow deck like DnT.

His list for ref:
http://www.classicquarter.com/decks/deckview.asp?DecklistID=3441

Lorgalis

09-17-2010, 09:14 AM

@Finn: It seems I missunderstood. Are you advocating for Canonist + Chant on the side? That seems too many hate cards for storm combo; I would only run that in a meta filled with such decks. When I play D&T I personally run 2 Canonists + 3 ETutor on the side, and so far so good. Adding more of either Canonist or Chant seems wrong to me, at least in a varied meta as mine. Storm combo is hard, but Canonist (+ ETutor) (+ Mother) can shore it up quite nicely, so why devote more cards in the sideboard only to make the MU slightly more favorable? Also, in a tournament, unless they know your list, smart storm players will always keep at least 2 Duress on game 2. Why? I'd rather have a (possibly) dead card that adds +1 storm for B, than risk you having a Chant/Mindbreak Trap. Not to mention that Duress let's me peek at your hand to evaluate your clock.

On Arbiter: It only stops Infernal Tutor against TES, but it is golden against Doomsday and IGGY variants. It doesn't do anything at all against Blecher nor Ad Nauseam.

Finn

09-17-2010, 12:07 PM

@Menace, the pertinent question is probably: Do you think Canonists are better than Arbiters in the main (or are you thinking to run both?)? I don't expect anyone to have an answer to this just yet. But I know that I expect the answer to be a firm NO.

I am familiar with what Blazelix has been doing online. I think it is wonderful, and I noted that he has been using Canonists since the beginning of MODO Legacy. I bet he gets as much testing done as I do so I would really like to ask him about it. I also note that the online decks seem to be going in the same direction we all are with their card choices in general. I wonder how much they reads these posts.

@Lorgalis: Yeah, I don't have any Chants right now. I came to that same conclusion some time ago. Most of the SB right now is focused on having 4 E-Tutors to fetch parts, like Canonists. But with the way the meta is shifting I am about to rework mine again as soon as I get some testing with Arbiters. And I think some of the silver bullets are going to come out.

menace13

09-17-2010, 06:11 PM

I am not a fan of Arbiter, I think Aven is flat out better as it is one-sided and doesn't allow any loop holes for 2 mana, it also flys and has flash, only upside to Arbiter is 2 mana opposed to 3.
Either way, I think Canonist is better than either of them.

My view is that Canonist slows down the 8 cantrip or tempo decks that rely on eot instants and 8 free counters to set up early, MErf/Gobs looking to plop down an army for alpha strike-not that DnT needs much help here-, and of course increases the chance to steal game 1 vs combo-which is a bad MU-.

emidln

09-17-2010, 11:17 PM

Penguinizer

09-18-2010, 07:35 AM

I still think Arbiter is better than Mindcensor MD. Arbiter is faster to hardcast and vial in and even if they can pay two to fetch, that's setting them back a good bit.

Arbiter vs. Canonist MD is a meta pick in my opinion.

Lorgalis

09-18-2010, 09:10 AM

It seems to me that a Doomsday deck running 7-8 fetches of which it'll have one of before Arbiter hits and 9-10 other lands, plus petals, rituals, and LEDs will have no trouble finding an extra two mana to kill you with. Doomsday only costs 4-5 on average to kill you anyway. It's not like D&T has a real clock anyway. Turn 5 goldfishes are scary....

I'm not experient with the DD deck, but...It seems to me that Arbiter can at least apply some pressure. Also, you don't have plenty of mana to spare every hand with DD (my idea is that TES usually has more mana), so the Arbiter might actually steal some wins, probably by stalling until you can get more hate. Arbiter + Canonist seem golden in that matchup; and if you play green, you have access to Gaddock Teeg too. Anyways, the matchup against combo will always be rough, but not unwinnable, specially if you have access to multiple hatebears. Having diverse hate that can still apply some pressure by kicking but seems to me the way to go, and not Chants/Mindbreak Trap et al.

Penguinizer

09-18-2010, 10:30 AM

Arbiter and wasteland could really cripple their manabase. Arbiter also makes DD cost 5 mana. It's basically why I'd main Arbiter instead of Canonist.

Either way, combo is still a very bad matchup.

LegacyDan

09-20-2010, 07:32 PM

I am hoping to pick up my 3 Hatebears this weekend. I am not 100% on what I want to replace though. My current options are 3 Harriers or 2 Aven Mindsensors/1 E. Tutur. ATM, I will be taking out my Harriers.

LegacyDan

09-22-2010, 06:33 PM

Placed 3rd for the second week in a row, was a good tourney. I had another D+T player for T4, although he was playing a Wg version of the deck.

mrjumbo03

09-24-2010, 11:39 AM

First time to post here, do you guys think that the new sword warrants a spot in the board?

Maëlig

09-24-2010, 12:13 PM

First time to post here, do you guys think that the new sword warrants a spot in the board?

I'm still having doubts on SoLaS (over another jitte), so I would say no. I don't see many MUs where I would want it over another equip, and I really don't want to randomly draw into it.

Penguinizer

09-24-2010, 02:09 PM

I think SoLaS vs. SoBaM is a meta thing. SoLaS stops Swords and Path, two of the most commonly played removal spells. It also stops some less common black spells like Smother. The creature recursion is handy and the life can be handy vs. some decks. I'd prefer to keep the new sword in the SB.

Lorgalis

09-25-2010, 12:42 PM

I don't see the new sword being good, of at least being better than the old ones, but I might be wrong as I haven't tried it yet. However, IMO it can be a good meta call, against ug madness for example. I would only consider it if your meta is filled with those kind of decks.

Has anybody tried the Arbiter yet? In my testing it has been doing pretty well, eating removal like a champ. In some matchups, when it sticks under the Mother's embrace, it can be quite stellar. In some matchups (namely Merfolk) he doesn't do anything and gets swiftly sided out.

Penguinizer

09-25-2010, 01:22 PM

Yeah, it's not good in some matchups and will be something to side out in mono-color. In a lot of those cases, I think it'd be a good idea to bring in something like Wing Shards or Kitchen Finks against merfolk and goblins/whatnot. I've found Wing Shards in particular to be a good card, especially if you happen to have 4 mana open so you can StP to build up storm.

LegacyDan

09-26-2010, 05:16 PM

1 Jitte and 1 of each Sword is working well for me. But then again, almost everone in my meta plays a different deck (with the exception of the other D+T player).

mrjumbo03

09-28-2010, 08:46 AM

any playtest news regarding the leonin arbiter?

LegacyDan

09-29-2010, 01:41 PM

So far it looks like she will be replacing my 3x Ethersworn Canonists in the sideboard. I really can't think of anything I would take out in the maindeck for it.

Penguinizer

09-29-2010, 03:17 PM

I'm just cutting Goldmeadow Harrier. I don't think it warrants removing the equipment toolbox. That was one suggestion I was given.

LegacyDan

09-29-2010, 04:47 PM

Are you running Moms then?

Penguinizer

09-30-2010, 11:46 AM

Yeah. 4x Mother of Runes is a most in my opinion.

HAL

09-30-2010, 12:05 PM

Here's a list I'm thinking of running when I get my hands on the Hatebears:
10x Plains
4x Karakas
4x Wasteland
3x Mishra's Factory

4x Mother of Runes
2x Goldmeadow Harrier
4x Serra Avenger
3x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Leonin Arbiter
2x Jötun Grunt
4x Flickerwisp
3x Mangara of Corondor

4x Aether Vial
4x Swords to Plowshares
Umezawa's Jitte
3x Oblivon Ring
Sword of Fire and Ice
Sword of Light and Shadow

SB:
3x Wing Shards
3x Tormod's Crypt
3x Kitchen Finks
3x Ethersworn Canonist (Or anything really. No real idea as to what run here.)
1x Leonin Arbiter
1x Sword of Body and Mind
1x Jötun Grunt

2x Jötun Grunt in the MB with 1 in the side, combined with 3x Crypt, should be sufficient gravehate for a lot of matchups. 7 hatebears post-side with mana-denial should make the combo matchup a bit more bearable. Wing Shards has proven itself a fantastic card against Aggro, and Kithen Finks also helps in that matchup. The Sword is in the SB so I can switch swords around depending on the matchup. Otherwise, fairly standard build.

I could probably cut Goldmeadow Harrier completely, but I still like it in some matchups. I could possibly remove the sword in favor of a third on in the SB. This depends largely on the meta at the time, as well as how the sword performs.
How can you run both stoneforge mystic AND leonin arbiter? Isn't that really anti-synergistic?

Lorgalis

09-30-2010, 01:11 PM

Not really, especially if you can vial in the Mystic.

I'm testing Leonin in my GW build at the moment. He's good, but I still don't know how much. I need more testing.

mrjumbo03

09-30-2010, 01:27 PM

You don't run fetches in your GW build? because if you do, you're not getting 100% efficiency from the arbiter...i'd say the mono-W gets about 90% because it still affects stoneforge but at least the deck doesn't run fetches...i'm all for MD-ing arbiter as well because it just randomly beats people due to not being able to fetch alone, or at least it eats a counter or a removal immediately... is it too much of a stretch to go up to 4 arbiters? they do stack unlike the long forgotten hate bear in its place before, the canonist...any thoughts?

Penguinizer

09-30-2010, 02:20 PM

How can you run both stoneforge mystic AND leonin arbiter? Isn't that really anti-synergistic?

It is insanely anti-synergistic. However, Mystic into Sword practically wins the Merfolk matchup by itself. It also greatly increases our chances against goblins. I believe that the Mystic toolbox is far too useful to remove.

HAL

09-30-2010, 04:29 PM

It is insanely anti-synergistic. However, Mystic into Sword practically wins the Merfolk matchup by itself. It also greatly increases our chances against goblins. I believe that the Mystic toolbox is far too useful to remove.
That's what I was getting at. The strongest part of the deck (IMO) is the equipment toolbox, so I think the arbiters are the ones we need to get rid of. I hate putting anti-synergistic cards in a deck. I know there are those of us that would run dark confidant and tombstalker together, but I'm not one those people.

Deadpool

09-30-2010, 04:38 PM

The Big Ragu

09-30-2010, 04:40 PM

Deadpool is friggen awesome.

HAL

09-30-2010, 05:08 PM

Except, HAL, that if you got an early Arbiter (or 2) lock on your opponent and prevent them from fixing their mana you should already be winning and Mystic becomes "win-more" rather than vital. You'll have plenty of time to draw into Jitte or SoFI while your opponent scrambles for basic lands. By that time you can even just pay the (2) to ignore the effect and go get your Jitte. And Tombstalker and Bob go fine in a deck together as long as you never flip Tombstalker over for Bob. ;)

But if you get matched up with a mono-colored deck, you can't play the arbiters because they obsolete one of your primary win conditions (mystic into one of the swords). But this is all theory; since I already have my playset, I might as well try it and see how it works out. But as of right now I am not convinced.

JCrawl85

09-30-2010, 09:50 PM

But if you get matched up with a mono-colored deck, you can't play the arbiters because they obsolete one of your primary win conditions (mystic into one of the swords). But this is all theory; since I already have my playset, I might as well try it and see how it works out. But as of right now I am not convinced.

If you play against a mono-colored in Legacy (with no fetches), call me crazy, but you would logically side out Arbiter. I think the number of Tier 1 Legacy decks that search their decks for something outnumbers those that don't.

HAL

09-30-2010, 10:33 PM

If you play against a mono-colored in Legacy (with no fetches), call me crazy, but you would logically side out Arbiter. I think the number of Tier 1 Legacy decks that search their decks for something outnumbers those that don't.

Well duh, but since we were discussing it in the main I was assuming we were talking about game 1. You put a card main because it is useful against enough match-ups that it's benefits outweigh it's hindrances. It's like medicine. Do the benefits outweigh the risks? I don't think so, but as I said, I'm going to try it next time I'm at a tournament and find out first hand.

eq.firemind

10-01-2010, 02:55 AM

Done some testing in MWS yesterday.
It seems like Arbiter and Mystic can coexist in this particular deck and that's awesome news. Moreover, E-Tutor sideboard seems to remain effective even with Arbiter maindeck (sideboard strategy has changed ofc.). I really like the fact that Arbiter reinforces our already powerfull manadenial strategy. Bad news are that Arbiter is not good vs Merfolks.

Now here's one interesting thought: one of Jotun Grunt's main strenghts in the ability to deal with Goyfs and KotR. But every deck with Goyf and/or KotR happens to run a decent amount of fetches, so Leonin Arbiter is effective against theese decks too. I don't call upon to replace Grunts with Arbiters, but think about this: you usually don't want Grunt on turn 2, but you absolutely want to cast Arbiter agains the majority of opponents asap.
Also, from first impression, Abiter is better than Grunt versus mono-:u: Merfolks (and obv better vs splashed). Actually, both cards are bad, but I realy hate to not have a reliable equip carrier in early stages of the game. It's just that crucial turn 2, when I can't cast Avenger nor Grunt, but need to do at least something. Obv. Mystic is the MVP, but there are only 3 in the deck and I realy want to be more consistent here (and if I happen to draw equipment, I REALY want a body to carry it next turn and Grunt doesn't do the thing here).
All this makes me want to reduce the number of MD Grunts down to 2 and thus free up is at least one slot for Arbiter.

Here's my test list for reference

4 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
3 Wasteland
2 Flagstones of Trokair
9 Plains

4 Aether Vial
4 Mother of Runes
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Oust/Condemn
1 Goldmeadow Harrier - I count Harrier and StP-effects as cards with same purpouse, 'cause they actually here to stop creatures. Just felt that four 1-costed equip-carriers were slightly not enough

4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Serra Avenger
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Jotun Grunt
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Flickerwisp
3 Mangara of Corondor
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Oblivion Ring

3 Cataclysm
1 Jotun Grunt
1 Oust/Condemn
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Runed Halo
1 Aura of Silence
1 free slot (Pithing Needle, Oust/Condemn)

Oust vs. Condemn question: first one hits Grim Lavamancer, Dark Confidant and manadorks, second one hits manlands and is more of a surprise. Don't know wich one to use...

Any comments are welcome.

LegacyDan

10-01-2010, 09:25 AM

Well Oust hits everything while Condemn needs a critter to attack before going off. But Condemn does have the rare chance to give them less thn three life, a VERY rare chance at that. Either way, I would prefere Harrier #2 since he can shut down an Emrakul or other fatty before it can even attack.

Lorgalis

10-01-2010, 09:49 AM

largebrandon

10-01-2010, 01:20 PM

Wouldn't Path to Exile be the superior card here, comboing with Arbiter? Just a quick thought.

Penguinizer

10-01-2010, 01:34 PM

We went over that already. It's cute with arbiter, but works against us otherwise. It's a big nono when we are actively trying to manascrew them with mangara+wasteland.

Anyways, what's everyone's opinion on the storm matchup with Leonin's in the deck? It's actually looking like it might not be as bad as before. Another thing I've been wondering about is how effective a black splash for Bob, Thoughtseize and Vindicate would eb.

LegacyDan

10-01-2010, 04:08 PM

That was tried FOREVER ago. Wu and Wb were tested heavily with no good results coming.

Penguinizer

10-01-2010, 04:14 PM

I suppose that's before I followed the deck/thread. I'll take your word for it, you probably know more of it anyways.

LegacyDan

10-01-2010, 10:06 PM

They were being tested a few years ago when I first picked up this deck, some of the more seasoned D+T players would know more than me.

Lorgalis

10-02-2010, 06:03 PM

In my opinion the only splash worth the effort is the green one, which I personally run. It gives you access to Gaddock Teeg (headaches for a lot of decks, not just combo), Tarmogoyf (Goyf >>>> Grunt) and Qasali Pridemage (Pridemage >>>> Oblivion Ring). Those additions make the deck more disruptive and, at the same time, give it a faster clock.

LegacyDan

10-02-2010, 06:37 PM

This is true, but one of the good things about D+T is its ability to be Wasteland proof.

Lorgalis

10-02-2010, 07:53 PM

This is true, but one of the good things about D+T is its ability to be Wasteland proof.

That is generally not an issue, as the only green cards are creatures so they can be vialed in. If you don't hace vial, you can simply fetch a forest. Also, it's not strange the case where I bait an opposing wasteland with a savannah if I have either wasteland + lands in hand or wasteland in hand + vial in play (especially now with arbiter).

If you're worried about mana screw in the g splash, I can assure you that it isn't a problem 99% of the time.

And I would like to note that not even monoW D&T is wasteland-proof, as it runs Karakas.

LegacyDan

10-03-2010, 12:28 AM

Rarely do I find myself fearing Wastelands in the MonoW version.

mrjumbo03

10-03-2010, 01:49 AM

That is generally not an issue, as the only green cards are creatures so they can be vialed in. If you don't hace vial, you can simply fetch a forest. Also, it's not strange the case where I bait an opposing wasteland with a savannah if I have either wasteland + lands in hand or wasteland in hand + vial in play (especially now with arbiter).

If you're worried about mana screw in the g splash, I can assure you that it isn't a problem 99% of the time.

And I would like to note that not even monoW D&T is wasteland-proof, as it runs Karakas.

By wasteland proof i think he meant not having the right colors... as opposed to monoW, even if karakas is blown up, at least you still have the right color...it sucks having your savannahs wasted while you're holding your goyfs in hand...also i think the printing of leonin arbiter would mean more raw power for the monoW build as it really disturbs a lot of decks...

on another note, how was the sword of body and mind in the main?i'm thinking if you're running it, might as well up the jotun grunt count back up to 3...more food for him...any thoughts?

HAL

10-03-2010, 04:40 PM

By wasteland proof i think he meant not having the right colors... as opposed to monoW, even if karakas is blown up, at least you still have the right color...it sucks having your savannahs wasted while you're holding your goyfs in hand...also i think the printing of leonin arbiter would mean more raw power for the monoW build as it really disturbs a lot of decks...

on another note, how was the sword of body and mind in the main?i'm thinking if you're running it, might as well up the jotun grunt count back up to 3...more food for him...any thoughts?

Sword of body and mind is really good with jotun grunt, but mediocre in every other situation. I like it as a fourth equipment, but it's just personal preference.

On another note, has anyone tried out Kemba, Kha Regent? I'm trying out this list.

//Lands
8x Plains
4x Karakas
3x Wasteland
4x Rishadan port
2x Flagstones of Trokair

4x Mother of Runes
2x Kemba, Kha Regent
3x Serra Avenger
3x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Leonin Arbiter
3x Jötun Grunt
4x Flickerwisp
3x Mangara of Corondor

4x Aether Vial
4x Swords to Plowshares

2x Oblivon Ring
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
1x Sword of Body and Mind

Note that I cut Goldmeadow Harrier. I find her generally unimpressive given the ammount of removal available to the deck.

LegacyDan

10-03-2010, 08:44 PM

Kemba? Really? Do let us know how she works out. Its an interesting choice, but it just seems cute, not good.

HAL

10-03-2010, 11:44 PM

Kemba? Really? Do let us know how she works out. Its an interesting choice, but it just seems cute, not good.

Hey, guess what? You were right!
She was good, but there was never a situation where I was like "Man, if it weren't for kemba I would have lost!" or even "If that kemba had been a harrier I would have won that game." I'm not exaggerative when I say that in 24 games versus 4 decks (approx. 10 where she was played) she did not change anything. She didn't just sit there doing nothing, she did make cats, but her absence wouldn't have changed the game very much at all.
What I would advise though is replacing goldmeadow harriers with kor duelists. I really don't like goldmeadow harriers, and kor duelist + jitte = gg.

colo

10-04-2010, 08:49 AM

Kemba doesn't look that intriguing from a distance to me. If I strap equipment onto something, I do that because I want to beat someone down with that, and a 2/4 vanilla bear for 3 that does something marginally neat IF it sticks around for a few turns doesn't seem like the best choice at that. Any other worthwhile (static) ability on a critter would probably be more beneficial, like First Strike or Protection-From-Something. What she's got going for her, apart from her awesome rack (wth, did I really write that? ;p), is the Legendary supertype. That did not save Isamaru, Hound of Konda, which beats for the exact same two points of damage and costs a THIRD of her mana investment. Do the math.

I think it'd be high time for WotC to print a mono-W 3mana legendary critter that really kicks ass in the aggro department, though. D&T has been waiting for so long, I hope the'll make it happen some time.

LegacyDan

10-04-2010, 02:58 PM

What I would advise though is replacing goldmeadow harriers with kor duelists. I really don't like goldmeadow harriers, and kor duelist + jitte = gg.

Double Strike looks good on paper, sadly I don't think I will be able to test this week.

mrjumbo03

10-06-2010, 03:28 AM

eq.firemind

10-06-2010, 04:10 AM

i was wondering why the lists in the OP were only using 3 wastelands... is it really overkill to go all in? im finding it hard to cut the last wasteland...oh and regarding the tutor board,is it still viable for those who use the arbiters main?or does the sb need reworking?
The thing is that IMHO Rishadan Port is better than Wasteland in this particular deck and with full 8 colorless lands we can have problems with :w::w:
The E-Tutor SB works for me even with four maindecked Arbiter. At this time I side in tutors in Dredge and Storm - games where you REALY need to find relevant hate quickly (vs Dredge Arbiter does nothing, so I side him out).
Now if you face, say, AggroLoam, you should not side in Tutors - only GY hate.
The trick is that most decks runs fetchlands, Arbiter already hates them well enough, so you can just add your special hate and it'll be fine.

Finn

10-06-2010, 10:54 AM

Yeah, eq.firemind has it right. In exhaustive testing I found that I had trouble finding enough white with only 14 sources. And in this deck, Ports are better by a good margine.

supachai

10-06-2010, 04:35 PM

It sounds like most everyone has had positive experiences with Leonin Arbiter. For people who have done a good amount of testing with Leonin Arbiter: is 3 or 4 copies optimal?

Vacrix

10-06-2010, 06:12 PM

It sounds like most everyone has had positive experiences with Leonin Arbiter. For people who have done a good amount of testing with Leonin Arbiter: is 3 or 4 copies optimal?
Are you referring to pre-board or post-board? MD arbiters sound inhibiting when you consider SFM. Has anyone run into this problem in testing?

LegacyDan

10-06-2010, 08:19 PM

Are you referring to pre-board or post-board? MD arbiters sound inhibiting when you consider SFM. Has anyone run into this problem in testing?

I am running three in the side, and while she hasn't been needed often I loved it when I got her in the right matches.

i was wondering why the lists in the OP were only using 3 wastelands... is it really overkill to go all in? im finding it hard to cut the last wasteland...oh and regarding the tutor board,is it still viable for those who use the arbiters main?or does the sb need reworking?

Ports are MUCH better for this deck, Wastelands are good but like Finn mentioned we need our white mana.

On the Kor Duelist topic, I ran 2 this Tuesday and it was GREAT. I had a SoBaM on him which ended one game quickly and another Jitte in another was just an instant scoop.

HAL

10-07-2010, 01:49 AM

I am running three in the side, and while she hasn't been needed often I loved it when I got her in the right matches.

Ports are MUCH better for this deck, Wastelands are good but like Finn mentioned we need our white mana.

On the Kor Duelist topic, I ran 2 this Tuesday and it was GREAT. I had a SoBaM on him which ended one game quickly and another Jitte in another was just an instant scoop.

:laugh:
I love that card. He really is great, especially compared to the meh that is goldmeadow harrier.

eq.firemind

10-07-2010, 02:26 AM

Parax

10-07-2010, 04:14 AM

Ports are MUCH better for this deck, Wastelands are good but like Finn mentioned we need our white mana.

I may be overlooking something, but ports do not give you white mana they are giving you colorless. So how is the ports netting you white?

eq.firemind

10-07-2010, 04:18 AM

I may be overlooking something, but ports do not give you white mana they are giving you colorless. So how is the ports netting you white?
They don't.
The point was about having 8 colorless lands leads to colorscrew. So you need to choose what to cut. In this deck, Port > Wasteland, so the last one comes out and Plains takes its place.

Lorgalis

10-07-2010, 07:34 AM

Folks, Duelist seems terrible. Too situation (only good when equipped) and even then, I'd rather have another creature.

As for Arbiter, I play 4 maindeck. However, it is a meta card, so the quantity is not a given number.

Al-ucard

10-07-2010, 09:33 AM

Hi guys, I've been testing this deck lately and I like it a lot, could you put your list with silent arbiter? Thanks!

tomjulioo

10-07-2010, 10:03 AM

Hi guys, I've been testing this deck lately and I like it a lot, could you put your list with silent arbiter? Thanks!

it's leonin arbiter, not silent...

LegacyDan

10-07-2010, 11:10 AM

I think Duelist in not well-rounded enough. Ofcourse he can punch for lots of damage, but it's the only thing he can do and he need other cards to effectievly perform the only thing he can. I just feel the deck needs more ways to deal with creatures. Harrier did the thing. Duelist can't do that.
In the end I almost switched the last Harrier to 6-th STP-effect to deal with creatures even more effectievely.

I am actually running a 2/2 split of Duelists and Harriers. As for dealing with critters, my deck runs 4 Wisps, 2 Harriers, 4 StPs and 3 O Rings. Creatures are hardly an issue.

Folks, Duelist seems terrible. Too situation (only good when equipped) and even then, I'd rather have another creature.

As for Arbiter, I play 4 maindeck. However, it is a meta card, so the quantity is not a given number.

My current Meta is an aggro heavy one, so my three Leonins sit in the SB and two Duelists in the MD. Unless I see a sudden shift, it will stay that way.

Al-ucard

10-07-2010, 05:16 PM

it's leonin arbiter, not silent...

Of course I'm talking about the new leonin, everybody knows what I'm talking about. Anyway, thanks for nothing.

Now I ask again, anyone have a list that works for him/her with the new Leonin Arbiter?

Thanks

Penguinizer

10-08-2010, 01:51 AM

Al-ucard

10-08-2010, 01:57 AM

I did a few playtest games with it against TES. It ended up slowing down the opponent pretty effectively, enough for me to get some more manahate going or get more hatebears. A few times, it was enough to manascrew the opponent.

I haven't had the pleasure of playing against other decks. The other players play monocolor decks. It didn't make a difference in the Stax and Merfolk matchups. Not a big surprise I might add.

Yes, but the problem with him is that we have to play monowhite because fetchlands, so put only 2-3 stoneforge and quit winmore equipments and add more copies of the better ones (Jitte-SoFaI), I've been thinking in something like this:

21 Lands
3 Karakas
11 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
3 Wasteland

25 Creatures
4 Flickerwisp
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Mangara of Corondor
4 Mother of runes
4 Serra Avenger
2 Aven Mindcensor
3 Stoneforge Mystic

14 Others
4 Aether vial
4 Swords to plowshares
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Thoughts?

eq.firemind

10-08-2010, 02:27 AM

LIST
I suggest
-2 Aven Mindcensor - The card is a little too slow for its effect.
-1 Umezawa's Jitte - Man, Mystic is awesome. There's no reason to not use it on full power.
-1 Oblivion Ring - Generally the weak spot of the deck. Is some metas you might want more Rings, but usually you don't
+1 Karakas - Deck wants 22 lands and 2nd Karakas after they waste the first one
+1 Sword of Light and Shadow - It is not worse than SoFaI in this deck. Protection-from-StP is not the thing you want to pass by.
+2 Jotun Grunt - eats Goyfs, KotRs, Loam-base strategies and does a little more in many MUs. When to cast/vial him is not easy question, but you'll learn that after some practice (trick - you can Flickerwisp him to reset counters).

Lorgalis

10-08-2010, 07:16 AM

Yeah, if I were to run monowhite, I'd pretty much run what you and eq.firemind suggested. However...4 Mangara? Really? I run 3, but maybe that's just me...

colo

10-08-2010, 07:54 AM

Lorgalis

10-08-2010, 12:50 PM

Why wouldn't you run a card that spells "Deal with me now, or I'll hit you where it REALLY hurts. And probably repeatedly at that!" and fits the general theme of your deck really well as a four-of? I never understood those who'd trim D&T by its most outstanding cornerstones like Karakas and Mangara of Corondor - there are matches you'll win without either, but there are others you win BECAUSE of one or the other. Or both.

Because Mangara sometimes (when you don't have Karakas online) can be worse than an Oblivion Ring (which is the WORSE card of the deck by far)? Because 2 of this in the opining hand is an auto mull?

I think that you rely to much on Mangara + Karakas. Those cards are nice, but they aren't the only way to win games, and against a lot of decks the combo is worthless because it is too slow/fragile.

colo

10-09-2010, 07:11 AM

If you consider a starting hand with two copies of Mangara an "auto-mull", I can definitely assure you: you are playing the card and probably the whole deck very, very wrong.

Lorgalis

10-09-2010, 07:14 AM

If you consider a starting hand with two copies of Mangara an "auto-mull", I can definitely assure you: you are playing the card and probably the whole deck very, very wrong.

Care to explain why?

LegacyDan

10-09-2010, 12:58 PM

If you consider a starting hand with two copies of Mangara an "auto-mull", I can definitely assure you: you are playing the card and probably the whole deck very, very wrong.

Huh? I can't think of one time when I had an opening hand including two Mangaras and thought "This is good, I keep".

colo

10-09-2010, 03:22 PM

Mangara is wildcard removal. It's a card that answers a great many threats, and relying on Karakas - or even more so, a single activation of it - to save it and abuse it more than once is rather short-sighted. If your opponent knows how to beat D&T, he'll hate on the Mangara and Karakas E
engine any way he can, which means that - unless you're sealing the deal with it and winning anyway - you're going to lose Mangara, which is the stronger part of the combo, rather sooner than later. Having a spare copy isn't bad (except for when Humility is on the battlefield), since that card always trades at least 1-for-1, and _must_ be answered by your opponent asap.

Penguinizer

10-09-2010, 03:27 PM

It really depends on the matchup in my opinion. Mangara is too slow to rely on for several matchups. As for hating on Mangara. It depends on how they hate on her. If it's targetted, you have Mothers and Flickerwisps+Vials to deal with that. If it's Humility/E.Plague, multiples won't help. It's an easily hated on combo, I don't think it's worth relying on too much. It adds to the deck, but I don't believe it's worth building around just that.

colo

10-09-2010, 06:12 PM

Well yes, of course. Every card can be dead in certain matchups, all cards are situational. Mangara just single-handedly shuts off a ton of cards other decks and even archetypes have serious problems with - it makes Emrakul shudder, takes out the Planeswalker trash, eats Moats and Ensnaring Bridges, and occasionally chump-blocks one attacker to snipe out a second one, all while beaming up to its owner's hand just a moment before. It's not exactly news that it doesn't do much against, e. g., Storm Combo, but neither does the deck as a whole. Mangara is made of serious win, and I cannot help but frown every time if some newfangled D&T-player disesteems it because it's "easily hated on". Being a creature, and therefore easily removed, is not a liability in D&T, mostly because of the quartet of Aether Vials I hope you are running. If you fin it to be sub-par in a certain matchup, board it out. It's that easy.

mrjumbo03

10-11-2010, 03:25 PM

what do you guys think of putting a singleton of ghostly prison in the sb? considering combo is going a bit down, and the freaking vengevival deck is everywhere, i think it would do some good right? and the tax effect is even better now with leonin arbiters hitting fetches...it's really nice against zoo too...any thoughts?

Penguinizer

10-11-2010, 03:40 PM

I don't believe in having the toolbox with arbiter. But if you do have it, it could work. It might also help against Goblins.

mrjumbo03

10-11-2010, 04:14 PM

hmm so Penguinizer, what's your sb? i think it still works though...more often than not, the arbiter is always killed or countered at sight in my experience...

Penguinizer

10-11-2010, 05:37 PM

My current SB consists of:

4x Tormod's Crypt (might drop this down to 3 though.)
3x Ethersworn Canonist (Combo)
3x Wing Shards (Oh so many decks. It's great.)
3x Kitchen Finks (Helps stabilize against zoo. This is a slot I might switch out though.)
1x Jötun Grunt
1x Leonin Arbiter

The last two are to supplement MD 3-ofs.

Lorgalis

10-13-2010, 05:15 PM

Well, it's been calm over here lately, so I thought I would post my GW for critique and discussion.

Here you go but beware, long post ahead...

// Lands (21)
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
3 Horizon Canopy
3 Savannah
3 Karakas
3 Plains
1 Forest

// Creatures (28)
4 Mother of Runes
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Serra Avenger
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Mangara of Corondor

// Spells (11)
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

// Sideboard (15)
3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Goldmeadow Harrier
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Meekstone
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Runed Halo
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sword of Body and Mind

Some notes:

- The sideboard must be tailored to your meta..."The flexible" spots for me are: Meekstone (Vs. Reanimator, New Horizons and occasionally Elves! and Merfolk), Wheel of Sun and Moon (Vs. Reanimator, Loam, Lands, Dredge...) and Sword of Body and Mind (Vs.? I'm just trying it out). The others are quite a MUST.

- I haven't tested Rishadan Port nor Flickerwisp. I don't like the idea of the port because I'm running 2 colors; I don't want to open the deck to manascrew, and with this land configuration I can't recall being colorscrewed. I don't like the idea of the 'Wisp because this version doesn't rely that much on the Mangara trick and I don't play Oblivion Ring (Qasali does almost the same job, but so much better...). However, it may warrant testing, as everybody here speaks wonders about the card. I don't know what to cut for it, so for the moment it is not in; but I'm open to suggestions backed up with testing

- Before you ask, Noble Hierarch doesn't belong here. The deck doesn't need accel and the exalted triggers needed (to break goyf stalemates and pump up the damage) are provided by the Pridemage.

Some wild ideas (untested, so no flaming plz):

- Do you feel that we could use Elspeth, Knight-Errant somewhere in the deck? Maybe a 2-of on the side, using 2 of the open slots? The walker is very powerful and can help when you're winning and when you're losing, so I think that it might warrant some testing. However...It can't be used with Gaddock Teeg...but that shouldn't be a big problem.

- Same as above but with Eternal Witness. That card + Vial seems like a winner to me. Recurring a Wasteland, StP or a broken equipment seems nice...

- What about changing the sideboard E-tutor toolbox for a Worldly tutor toolbox? In theory, that helps us to put more pressure as we'll always be adding power to the board AND we get new Vial Tricks. However, we loose the ability to search for Vial (that I have never used) or equipment (which I have rarely used and don't mind loosing) AND we'll probably need more access to green mana. Let's see what we can get and what we loose:

Graveyard hate: We loose Wheel of Sun and Moon, Tormod's Crypt, Relic of Progenitus. We gain access to Loaming Shaman and Faerie Macabre. I'm not sure which tutor is better here.

Storm Combo: We maintain access to Ethersworn Canonist. We loose Runed Halo (which never was very good, btw...). On the other hand, we gain more access to Gaddock Teeg/Leonin Arbiter (depending on the matchup) and we could include back Glowrider/True Believer (also see Meddling Mage below). W-Tutor seems better here (however, if they go Wish --> Pyroclasm, they can take out several hatebears at once) :thumbsup:

Utility: We loose Pithing Needle, Engineered Explosives, Meekstone, Runed Halo. That's bad...We gain access to Goldmeadow Harrier, Tivadar of Thorn (goblins is not that favorable in my opinion...), Marble Titan (bad card, but...it has the same ability than Meekstone if needed), Meddling Mage (I know we can't cast it, but as a singleton could be vialed in...), Intrepid Hero (if big critters are a poblem), Dauntless Escort (Mass removal anyone?) and generally to any critter already on our deck (Mangara, Mystic, Qasali...). W-tutor seems more flexible for a diverse metagame. Probably :thumbsup:

- All the above but with Eladamri's Call instead of W-Tutor. Each has it's pros and cons, but at first I think E-tutor would be better, except in meta's where storm combo is not an issue.

Comments welcome and appreciated.

colo

10-14-2010, 03:41 AM

Graveyard hate: We loose Wheel of Sun and Moon, Tormod's Crypt, Relic of Progenitus. We gain access to Loaming Shaman and Faerie Macabre. I'm not sure which tutor is better here.

At least this choice is, imo, strictly worse than the E-Tutor version. As tutored cards don't end up in your hand, you're probably after a more or less permanent solution to your problems, which Wheel of Sun and Moon is in terms of yardhate, and and the hatebears you list as an alternative aren't. Eladamri's call seems better here, but it's 2 mana already. One could consider playing Living Wish at that point, which would open up accessing sideboard hate game one.

DukeDemonKn1ght

10-14-2010, 04:56 AM

Lorgalis

10-14-2010, 02:52 PM

Well, I have already tested Living Wish and it doesn't work, because it is too slow. Also, I don't see myself changing anything from the MD, I just want to replicate the E-Tutor Side with W-Tutor.

I'll be testing this list and feeding the updates if anybody is interested...

colo

10-15-2010, 01:48 AM

How is Living Wish any slower than Eladamri's Call?

Lorgalis

10-15-2010, 07:10 AM

Living Wish is slower than W-Tutor in the early game, not slower than Eladamri's call.

I've been giving it some thought, and tinkering with a friend, and I'll give a shot to a build with Living Wish. And, maaaybe, play it tomorrow at my local tourney...so maybe more feedback later.

Penguinizer

10-15-2010, 05:04 PM

Well, I'm also going to a local tourney tomorrow. I doubt it's the same one though. :P

I'm playing a fairly standard mono-W list with 3x Mishra's Factory in place of Rishadan Port and 4x Wasteland. 3 Arbiters main and one SB.

I still don't like my SB at all, it feels too rigid. 4x Crypt and 2x Grunts to supplement 2 MD grunts is enough gravehate, a couple of kitchen finks against aggro, Wing Shards and Canonist should be ok though. It just feels bad compared to the flexibility of the toolbox.

eq.firemind

10-15-2010, 05:35 PM

Played 31 ppl Legacy FNM (5 rounds, no top). Went 3-2 with the following list:

9 Plains
2 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
3 Wasteland

4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Oust
4 Mother of Runes
2 Goldmeadow Harrier
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Serra Avenger
3 Jotun Grunt
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Flickerwisp
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 Oblivion Ring
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

3 Cataclysm
1 Jotun Grunt
1 Condemn
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Aura of Silence
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Runed Halo
1 Pithing Needle

It was my first real tournament in more than year and I didn't make notes, so just a small overview:

Round 1: vs Bant (I saw Top, so probably it was Countertop Bant) 2-0
Game 1: don't remember here, guess I won on the back of creature with SoLaS
Game 2: Again, won with equipped creature, but the true star in this game was Goldmeadow Harrier for tapping enemy creatures in responce to equip Jitte.

Round 2: vs Mono-:r: Goblins, 2-0
Game 1: I installed fast Jitte, he burned 2 Flickerwisps with 2 Tarfire, I tapped his mana with Ports and ended up with Jitte on Avenger and won
Game 2: again, fast Jitte, Avenger, StP, my opponent stuck on 1 land and Vial and topdecked 4 non-goblins from Ringleader. I feel a little dirty for this game.

Round 3: vs Sneak and Tell, 1-2
Game 1: Turn 2 Sneak Attack, Emrakul, turn 3 Emrakul.
Game 2: beat him with Mystic and SoFaI, don't remember if he did something interesting
Game 3: I forgot to side in Runed Halo for Prog and was promptly eaten with turn 2 or 3 hydra.

Round 4: vs Eyeless Dredge, 1-2
Game 1: Saw Grunt too late, was eaten with Ichorids and zombies
Game 2: Turn 1 E-Tutor, Turn 2 Wheel of Sun and Moon, game
Game 3: I mulled to 6 and he Therapied my E-Tutor. After some turns of slowdredge I drew bunch of lands while he finnaly managed to dig power and made 10+ tokens

Round 5: vs Food Chain Combo, 2-0
Round 1: Managed to beat through Woodfall Primus with equipped dude. Goldmeadow Harrier done nice job.
Round 2: Ethersworn Canonist with Mom's protection prevented his combo, Harrier tapped blockers adn I bashed for the win just a turn before he could have an opportunity to combo out.

Overall, I punted alot and had some luck.
I never wanted Leonin Arbiter. Goldmeadow Harrier was full of win and I guess that 5-th StP effect can turn into 3rd kithkin.
Sideboard was usefull, but I think about -1 Grunt, -1 Condemn, +2 Wing Shards to fight Hydra.

Penguinizer

10-15-2010, 06:18 PM

If Leonin Arbiter doesn't work for me, I might cut some of the SB cards and move it to the SB and put Harriers back in main.

LegacyDan

10-15-2010, 07:16 PM

Congrats, I guess? People keep saying that Arbiter needs to be in the MD, but she has never shined for me. SB is a great spot for her, for not every deck will be crippled with her on the field. I am glad to see that Harrier was a positive part of your deck.

supachai

10-15-2010, 11:33 PM

I've finally gotten around to some testing with Arbiter and I must say I have not been impressed. It has never been more than just a bear. It doesn't improve any of our problem matchups. Even harrier, while seemingly sub-par, has allowed me to win games I shouldn't have. The decks it hinders the most, blue-based control with few removal spells, we already have a good matchup against. There is also much better hate against combo than Arbiter. The one matchup I haven't been able to test is Vengevine survival. This is the one matchups where it seems it could be useful but for now, Arbiter is so underwhelming in the other matchups that I'm leave it out of the deck.

Penguinizer

10-16-2010, 06:45 AM

Well. i'm at the tournament. So far I'm neutral on Arbiter. It'll have done about as much good for me as Harrier. This is to say it has done nothing.

Burn was too fast and got Vortex active too fast for finks or jitte to help. Tendrils in turn manages to go off with only two lands drawn and one left in play the turn it went off. All without any fetches or tutors.

Two bad matchups in a row. Probably will play Belcher net. Considering a drop if I do.

MD arbiter seems meh. Might just be better as SB.I just feel like I'm losing my faith in the deck in general. It just hasn't done well at all for me.

Finn

10-16-2010, 09:18 AM

I am not saying that Arbiters are bad or not yet. But I will say that if it turns out to be about the same as a Canonist, I would just stick with Canonists. They are a stronger lock.

Penguinizer

10-16-2010, 10:14 AM

Here's a report about the rest of the tourney. Round 3, some random pile. Was pretty easy. Round 4, storm. He fizzled game 1 and I had 2x arbiter and canonist along with 2 lands in my hand. Round 5 was dreadstill. Game 1 avenger+sword wins. Game 2 he just rolls over me. Game 3 I get him to 4, but he has removal fo my dudes and gets countertop active.

Overall, I'd rather just have Harriers MD. Was better in my opinion. Arbiter might work in the SB, but was a disappointment MD.

Here's the meta breakdown and T8 lists: http://poromagia.com/index.php?page=viewarticle&articleid=11

I ended up going 2-3. 3-1-1 was needed to get into T8.

Lorgalis

10-16-2010, 06:33 PM

There is also much better hate against combo than Arbiter. The one matchup I haven't been able to test is Vengevine survival. This is the one matchups where it seems it could be useful but for now, Arbiter is so underwhelming in the other matchups that I'm leave it out of the deck.

I don't consider Arbiter hate against storm combo. They don't play enough fetches nor search spells for it to be relevant...Well, maaaaybe Doomsday, but it is still a stretch. If you're looking to beat storm combo, Canonist is your man (well, artifact girl or whatever it is).

What I can say from my testing is that Arbiter usually destroys Landstill on its own, and also Survival decks. And those are not good matchups for D&T.

@penguinizer: looking at your meta, it seems that Canonist >> Arbiter for you...

supachai

10-16-2010, 06:46 PM

I don't consider Arbiter hate against storm combo. They don't play enough fetches nor search spells for it to be relevant...Well, maaaaybe Doomsday, but it is still a stretch. If you're looking to beat storm combo, Canonist is your man (well, artifact girl or whatever it is).

What I can say from my testing is that Arbiter usually destroys Landstill on its own, and also Survival decks. And those are not good matchups for D&T.

@penguinizer: looking at your meta, it seems that Canonist >> Arbiter for you...

Ahh. Yes. Sorry if you misunderstood me. I wasn't saying that Arbiter was storm hate, but that if there's any reason to use Arbiter, it shouldn't be for storm combo.

As for landstill, which version have you been testing against? UBGw or UW/x? I know UBG usually runs 6-7 spot removal + deeds and it just kills us. Does Arbiter actually make this matchup beatable?

Lorgalis

10-16-2010, 08:15 PM

No prob Supachai.

I just smashed UW Landstill against a very good player (from the Mana Drain), but I play Gaddock Teeg + Qasali Pridemage, so that matchup is quite easy...:tongue: Arbiter is just overkill there, and it helps you slowing them down.

UBG Landstill has Innocent Blood and Ghastly Demise; if can play around those and/or make sure they don't have access to black mana, you're good to go.

Really, Arbiter is very good against fetchlands. I think that people thought that it would win games on its own...and sure it doesn't. But which creature does? (and Mangara doesn't count because it needs Karakas). It gives you a lot of time though, and meanwhile it beats or attracts removal. Of course, iit dies to most of the removal out there but...which creature in D&T doesn't? And we play Mother of Runes for a reason...

If you want to win games with Arbiter alone against fetchlands, you would need to land it turn one. But that would be a whole new deck, as you'd need moxen and Suppression Field.

I'm getting a lot of positive feedback about Flickerwisp, which I don't play in my GW build. I'll try to put it in somewhere...but I don't know what to cut.

LegacyDan

10-16-2010, 08:34 PM

Post your list so we can help out.

DalkonCledwin

10-16-2010, 08:41 PM

Post your list so we can help out.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?6775-[Deck]-Death-and-Taxes&p=494553&viewfull=1#post494553

his list as of wednesday though it may have changed slightly sense then so don't quote me on that.

HerrFunker

10-18-2010, 09:13 AM

I have been running mono white version with canonist main.

For the sideboard I have found Chalice of the void works much better than Chant for me. for 1 against storm combo you don't need to leave a mana open and you can lay every threat for a faster clock. Though what impresses me even more is its versatility against decks like enchantress, and red burn. If you set it for 1 against those it slows them down considerably. Also against some versions of affinity if you are on the play chalice for 0 can wreck them or late game at 2 for plating, ravager, and the new guy that gives +1+1 counters. I wouldn't bring it in if you are on the draw however.

for reference my SB currently consists of
2 aura of silence
2 cataclysm
2 BFT
3 chalice of the void
2 kitchen finks
1 relic of protogenesis
1 tormods crypt
1 wheel of sun and moon

Im not quite sure which gy hate is best for me, so even though I don't have tutors I still keep the 3 different GY hate cards so Ichorid has a harder time with therapy, and it is harder to name the right one with needle.

DalkonCledwin

10-18-2010, 02:35 PM

Chalice of the Void does have the problem of shutting down a huge chunk of this deck itself if not timed properly (i.e. if not landed after an Aether Vial or two).

HerrFunker

10-18-2010, 04:37 PM

DalkonCledwin

10-18-2010, 04:44 PM

against storm and affinity you set it for 0. Against enchantress your 1 drops don't do much anyway except for vial. Against burn yes you lose BFT and Mom if you dont time it right, but shutting down 1/4 of their deck is Very worth it.

against Storm, and Enchantress you have better options in the deck that don't require you to dilute your deck's threat base all that much (i.e. Ethersworn Canonist is a prime example).

Against Affinity, there is always the option of running things such as Serenity if you are really concerned about Affinity, and if it becomes a really huge problem you can always just have Null Rod in the sideboard considering you really don't need Aether Vial in this match up, much less the equipment if you can shut down 90% of their deck.

As far as Burn... why do we need Chalice of the Void in that match up exactly? That should be an easy win for any version of Death and Taxes to begin with...

Penguinizer

10-18-2010, 04:50 PM

DalkonCledwin

10-18-2010, 04:57 PM

I dunno. I've had trouble against Burn. It just ends up being fast, and Sulfuric Vortex prevents me from stabilizing fast enough. I may just be an idiot.

As for jitte and whatnot. Smash to Smithereens seems to appear at the worst possible time.

okay, so um... have you tried the Green Splash?

Things the Green Splash adds to help the Burn Match Up:

Gaddock Teeg = Shuts down Fireblast and Flame Javelin among a few other more interesting options they could be running such as X-spells.

Qasali Pridemage = destroys Sulfuric Vortex... key in defeating them...

Tarmogoyf = a creature that is near impossible for a burn deck to get rid of with anything in their deck short of a fireblast cast extremely early.

All of these cards and more are available in a Green Splash that enable you to stop them from killing you as easily. Granted you will take damage faster than normal due to fetches and horizon canopy... but on the flip side that ALSO has the benefit of preventing you from being the victim of Hidetsugu's Second Rite which I am told some burn decks capitalize on...

For the record, I used to play burn, I know what it's weaknesses are and what they are not... and both Mono-White Death and Taxes, and GW Death and Taxes have the tools necessary to beat the deck without adding things like Chalice of the Void.

mrjumbo03

10-20-2010, 02:20 AM

what's the consensus on enlightened tutor, is 3 or 4 the right number?i'm thinking about buying those foil ones and i need to know what's the best configuration...:)

LegacyDan

10-20-2010, 03:11 AM

0? IF you are gonna use them, 3 seems about right.

Caspian

10-20-2010, 12:24 PM

Hello, I'm a consistant lurker on this thread but rarely post. I've been toying with DnT and it's variants for a few years without much actual tournament experience but lots of games with friends. I'm going to GP Toronto and am deciding between ThopterTop or GW DnT, I'm leaning towards DnT simply because it's more fun to play.

I have a lot of respect for Finn's mono-White list but I can't help but be lured by the goodies that splashing Green gets me. I wonder what people with more experience have to say about the green splash and the current meta-game. I'm specifically excited about 4x Tarmogoyf, 4x QasaliPridemage. I would take out Serra Avenger and Flickerwisp to accommodate.

Other features I'd like to include is 1 Crucible of World to reccur Horizon Canopies, Wastelands and generally keep my mana flowing so as to better facilitate the tempo imblanace that Rishadan Port creates.

I'm also thinking of running 3x Cannonist MD and boarding into Leonin Arbiters against the Survival and other search heavy strategies.

Any thoughts, specifically about the green splash I guess...

Penguinizer

10-20-2010, 01:12 PM

Serra Avenger is a great creature. Evasion and vigilance are very useful.

Should Kitchen Finks be maindecked? I'm considering swapping 3x MD arbiter with the 3x SB finks.

AggroSteve

10-20-2010, 03:58 PM

i think kitchen finks is a sideboard card specially useful against zoo

about arbiter, a have to say i prefer canonists which i play main as a 3-of, and they are just fine to me, they are slowing opponents down a lot and it is very strong against storm

about the green-splash i think that it is not needed at all, yeah you get huge beater, and utility both better than in mono w, but you open yourself to wasteland, stifle, and gravehate, meaning the biggest vanilla beater for 2 mana has just as much use as small fry
and actually i do not see any of the matchups getting better/worse with the greensplash, so i for my part will stick with mono w

hopefully everything was clear, my english is not the best anymore, since i am german and not that used to write or speak in english anymore

Caspian

10-20-2010, 04:17 PM

@AggroSteve: Thanks for that perspective, it's a very helpful way to look at the idea of the green-splash: "Does it improve any match-ups? Does it improve our worst match-ups?" And you english is great, clear enough for me to understand your point.

I haven't played much, like I mentioned but just thinking about it I don't see what Tarmogoyf brings to the fold in terms of making games better. I like him because he seems like he could close out a game quite quickly but I could also see multiple scenarios where he just get's blocked for multiple turns in a row while Serra Avenger would continue to connect and continue to turn on the triggered equipment.

Gaddock Teeg also seem attractive but I wonder if Ethersworn Cannonist is doing a simlar job most of the time without the stretch to a 2nd colour.

Qasali Pride-Mage still seems incredibly potent to me though. I think a splash for 4 is very prudent across multiple M/Us.

Lorgalis

10-20-2010, 05:35 PM

about arbiter, a have to say i prefer canonists which i play main as a 3-of, and they are just fine to me, they are slowing opponents down a lot and it is very strong against storm

True. If you want to fight storm, Canonist is the creature, and so is Gaddock. Arbiter is only occasionally good against Doomsday decks. But Gaddock is useful against cards where Canonist doesn't do anything: Natural Order, Engineered Explosives, Wrath of God, Dread Return, Smokestack, big Jace, Elspeth, Armaggedon...

about the green-splash i think that it is not needed at all, yeah you get huge beater, and utility both better than in mono w, but you open yourself to wasteland, stifle, and gravehate, meaning the biggest vanilla beater for 2 mana has just as much use as small fry and actually i do not see any of the matchups getting better/worse with the greensplash, so i for my part will stick with mono w

I don't agree with the highlighted part.

1 - Goyf is a replacement for Grunt, and I hope we all agree that Goyf >>> Grunt. And anything that hurts the size of the goyfs has an impact on the longevity of the Grunts. Also, having Goyf + Qasali Pridemage is the nuts, as you can attack into opposing Goyfs.
2- Goyfs don't replace Serra Avenger, Serra is a very good card in the metagame because of Flying + Vigilance.
3- I think I don't have to elaboate on why Qasali Pridemage is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oblivion Ring in this deck...The cat is really the best tool of the splash.

GW definately improves most matchups, while not opening yourself to much. Why? Because you only need WWG to operate without Vial (with mono W you need 1WW), so If you fear Wasteland, simply fetch a basic forest. Note that if you have vial going, you don't even need G...And yes, fetches can be stifled, but with ******** practically nonexistent, I don't see this being a big problem.

@caspian: you can find my GW list some pages ago...

LegacyDan

10-20-2010, 10:10 PM

1 - Goyf is a replacement for Grunt, and I hope we all agree that Goyf >>> Grunt. And anything that hurts the size of the goyfs has an impact on the longevity of the Grunts. Also, having Goyf + Qasali Pridemage is the nuts, as you can attack into opposing Goyfs.
2- Goyfs don't replace Serra Avenger, Serra is a very good card in the metagame because of Flying + Vigilance.

Sorry, I can not agree with your #1. Tarmogoyf is a generic beater, nothing more nothing less. Jotun Grunt on the other hand is a beater that shrinks Goyfs, removes threats, and lets you recycle cards.

Honestly, had I had Goyf in my deck instead of Grunt I would have gone 1-3 instead of 3-1.

HerrFunker

10-20-2010, 10:29 PM

I think G/W is another deck entirely. D&T is a deck that abuses vial and crippling the other player's strategy. If they are combo you waste their lands and play canonist. If they are agro or burn you play avatar and equip a sword onto it. Grunt shuts down GY based decks. Mangara/O ring come in when they cast show and tell ect ect. The deck does not have a great goldfish, but the interaction with the other player is what makes it scary. The cards it plays are in there for a reason. If you want large Goyfs and a fast clock play zoo, GW Vengevival, Maverick or a number of other decks that are built to take advantage of them.

nwong

10-21-2010, 04:45 AM

I think that the green splash makes the deck stronger. Qasali pridemage makes a LOT of matchups easier. Jotun grunt has more utility, but goyf is more useful IMO since it stays around AND can be played early on as a blocker. Grunts usually sit in your hand until the gy fills up a bit, or die in a couple of turns if you play them early. Teeg kinda does the same thing that canonist does, but it also stops cards such as natural order, humility, engineered explosives, and ad nauseum. Canonist can be boarded in as part of the tutor package if teeg isn't enough. The sideboard for green splash is also stronger since it has access to krosan grip which helps against counterbalance especially.

What the green splash does miss is rishaden ports and the mana denial. Oring was the weakest part of the mono-white deck and I've honestly never missed it. Jotun grunt is sometimes missed, but overall I like having a big body that sticks around for more than a couple of turns. Yes, you can argue that you can just reset the age counters with flickerwisp, but I prefer to save my wisps for other things. Recycling equips is a kinda moot point since you need another mystic (or a wisp to flick one that's in play) to get the equip back. In the sideboard I guess monowhite can run Cataclysm, which can win games on its own.

However, overall I believe the green splash is stronger since it just has more answers.

Oxmo39

10-21-2010, 06:47 AM

Hi Folks!

I used to play this deck till the m10 rules wrecked the deck. Recent printings of Mystic and Arbiters made me feel like it was time to build this deck again.

I am wondering what are your siding strategies against the vengevines deck. Yeah, talking again about this MU but it is so...everywhere !
I play a classic mono-W version (arbiters included MD) The problem is that i always feel like i want to bring in a lot, but i really don't know what to take out ! I usually want to enter the E-tutor box with P Needle and gravehate. canonist seems also good to avoid the freaking plant to trigger....I'm also considering Sword of Body and Mind in SB... it makes at least 6 cards to enter :really:

I don't have much experience against VV decks, thus, my siding strategies can be wrong (do not hesitate to criticize).i know VV decks are really present in my meta and that's why i'd like to have a dedicated side strategies against them...

I have brainstormed a lot but i can not decide what to take out since O-rings and Arbiters are needed to fight survival...

Any thoughts ?

AggroSteve

10-21-2010, 07:23 AM

canonists are also very good agianst every deck with a superior tempo than ours, besides it stops not the trigger of vengevines but does not let opponent play 2 rootwallas, but recently people strarted trying memnite or shield sphere because of canonist

i think, if ou like the arbiters main than you should be fine with them stopping survival, but beware of daze
swords to plowshares are allways good to get rid of at least one vengevine
but actually tormods crypt seems stellar to me, at least slowing them down a bit, until you got the answers you need (because they will search for trygon predator to crack crypt, and go of afterwards)

to be honest i do not have that much experience against that deck either, but im constantly reading in its thread^^

nwong

10-21-2010, 07:30 AM

There's always the possibility of putting in Runed halo naming the vines.

colo

10-21-2010, 09:48 AM

And have it put into your yard next turn on account of Quasali Pridemage? (I consider the GW Survival builds of late superior to the GU Madness builds.) You need to handle Survival of the Fittest itself if you want a shot in that matchup. Having multiple Vengevines stroll your opponent's side isn't going to cut it if you're trying to win anything.

The best way to deal with VV is, of course, Extirpate, but since there's not much interest in a B splash right now, I'd probably go for random removal (to get rid of the first plant and up storm count) + Wing Shards.

LegacyDan

10-21-2010, 12:14 PM

HerrFunker

10-21-2010, 12:27 PM

Mangara stops Survival, Shaman,and Vengines
StP hits Shamans, Vengevines
ORing works like Mangara
Wing Shards hakes multiple Vines laughable
Tormod's Crypt can catch them off guard
Canonist shuts off Vengevine

Haven't had a problem with them so far, and I don't see any problems in the future

^ this wing shards really is an all star in this matchup.
Grunt can get rid of wonder if they are playing u/g it also shrinks goyfs, and KOTR if they are g/w

LegacyDan

10-21-2010, 01:46 PM

Indeed, Wing Shards is one of the reasons I LOVE this deck. It is fun watching someones face when they realise there is just not enough FoWs in their deck to counter all the storm counts.

Penguinizer

10-21-2010, 04:39 PM

I find that most people learn to play around it very quickly. It's still a great card though.

LegacyDan

10-21-2010, 06:35 PM

True, but you can force Storm Counts with your own StPs and vaious other methods.

colo

10-22-2010, 04:08 AM

And it only gets funnier if they (try to) counter your first removal that turn :D

Lorgalis

10-22-2010, 05:11 AM

True, but you can force Storm Counts with your own StPs and vaious other methods.

To play StP + Wing Shards you need 1WWW. I'm sure that it doesn't come up that often...However, it does seem neat against Survivine, as they need to play 2 spells to get the vines back, so Wing Shards will hit for at least 3; but it doesn't exile the plants, so they will come back. So I'd so much rather have Canonist against them, as with it they can't "combo" (unless they play horrible cards like Memnite). And running both Canonist and Wing Shards is not a good idea.

Wing Shards seems like a really bad card to me, as it only works against a very few decks...But if your meta is full of Progenitus and Survivine I guess it's OK.

AggroSteve

10-22-2010, 08:22 AM

its also good against zoo for example, when they burn or path your only creature to get theirs to connect with your life, since your opponent will lose 2 creatures this way

i like wing shards its a fun and good card if you ask me, you just have to know how to play it

Lorgalis

10-22-2010, 08:51 AM

Just wondering...do you maindeck it? Or is it a sideboard tool?

DalkonCledwin

10-22-2010, 09:20 AM

I just want to point out two things. First you do not gain storm count from Vengevine returning to play from the graveyard. Just from the creatures being cast to help get him onto the field (i.e. the basking rootwalla's). Thus even if they bring back 4x Vengevine you still only have a storm count of 2x for that turn in all likelyhood.

Second, I don't think a Storm based removal is all that optimal for dealing with Vengevine Survival for two reasons. First is the fact that Vengevine Survival can do some tricks in response to the first time you cast it on them. Instead of attacking just with the vengevines they can attack all in with everything they have, thus protecting their vengevines. Second they can start sideboarding Stifles to prevent the storm count from mattering all that much. Either of these scenerio's can cause a problem for wing shards.

The other reason is because 1WW mana is a bit expensive even for the mono-white version. The reason I say this is because the mono-white version usually runs 7 to 8 colorless lands and 14 or so colored lands. 1WW that cannot be vialed in, is asking for trouble when it comes to producing that mana, especially if you are trying to do it on your opponents turn at instant speed.

Hopo

10-22-2010, 10:04 AM

I just want to point out two things. First you do not gain storm count from Vengevine returning to play from the graveyard. Just from the creatures being cast to help get him onto the field (i.e. the basking rootwalla's). Thus even if they bring back 4x Vengevine you still only have a storm count of 2x for that turn in all likelyhood.
I believe everybody gets that vines do not trigger storm, but when your opponent plays 2 creatures to bring back Vengevines, your Shards will kill 3 creatures. That is something.

Second, I don't think a Storm based removal is all that optimal for dealing with Vengevine Survival for two reasons. First is the fact that Vengevine Survival can do some tricks in response to the first time you cast it on them. Instead of attacking just with the vengevines they can attack all in with everything they have, thus protecting their vengevines.
This is assuming, that you will cast Wing Shards at the totally wrong time. Therefore this reasoning is false. If you go to declare blockers step before playing Wing Shards, they cannot choose new attackers anymore.

Second they can start sideboarding Stifles to prevent the storm count from mattering all that much. Either of these scenerio's can cause a problem for wing shards.

D&T is a deck against which Stifle actually is really useful, as you have number of targets from Mangara and Karakas to Stoneforge Mystic, equipment and Wasteland. I wouldn't count on UG madness siding them out in the first place. Since you have many targets, your most expensive stiflable trick, Shards, will probably resolve unharrassed.

Lorgalis

10-22-2010, 10:25 AM

To me this issue is reduced to:

1- Wing Shards can, at max, kill (and not EXILE) the Vengevines. The savvy Survivine player will manage to bring them back.
2- D&T, in any of its incarnations (monoW or Gsplash) has better tools do dismantle the Survivine deck --> In order of importance: destroy Survival (Qasali Pridemage, Mangara, Oblivion Ring), break the Survival chains (Ethersworn Canonist, Leonin Arbiter, Pithing Needle), exile their VV (StP, Mangara, Oblivion Ring).

I honestly don't see what's the big deal with that deck...People are scared of it just because it is widely played and do well at tournaments? IMO, this is a good matchup for us. If Dreadstil was winning as much as Survivine, would we be scared of it? I doubt it. We slaughter them.

DalkonCledwin

10-22-2010, 10:32 AM

I believe everybody gets that vines do not trigger storm, but when your opponent plays 2 creatures to bring back Vengevines, your Shards will kill 3 creatures. That is something.

That is assuming that they don't attack with 3 other creatures aside from the Vengevines...

This is assuming, that you will cast Wing Shards at the totally wrong time. Therefore this reasoning is false. If you go to declare blockers step before playing Wing Shards, they cannot choose new attackers anymore.

Technically, as soon as you receive priority (even if it is within the Declare Attackers step) they have lost the opportunity to declare different attackers.

D&T is a deck against which Stifle actually is really useful, as you have number of targets from Mangara and Karakas to Stoneforge Mystic, equipment and Wasteland. I wouldn't count on UG madness siding them out in the first place. Since you have many targets, your most expensive stiflable trick, Shards, will probably resolve unharrassed.

That depends on how well informed the Vengevine Survival Player happens to be about your deck...

All told I have to agree with Lorgalis' analysis of the Vengevine Survival match up, Wing Shards is NOT needed for that match up as we have a veritable assortment of much better tools at this decks disposal in all of its incarnations to battle the survival decks.

Finn

10-22-2010, 12:50 PM

I have not had any real problems with Survival decks of any sort, including this one. But if the white versions with Pridemage becomes the norm, the deck will likely become a problem. That card puts a hurting on this deck. The card itself is merely a nuisance, but the fast decks that have it are able to make it do a lot.

Wing Shards against fast decks with painless recursion seems pretty bad. My own experience with it is against other decks but if you go back to the discussions in May, June, and July of this thread you will find that most of its proponents were bemoaning the promise of the card never quite working out. I am one of them. It is just too slow and unreliable.

Still, we should be prepared for such a popular deck with a solid game plan and boarding scheme. G/W seems to have its primary tool, Qasali Pridemage, shine in this matchup. If you G/W guys are also packing the E.Tutor package, I bet this matchup can be pretty good for you. For the rest of us, with Oblivion Rings becoming less popular, we are going to have to get more creative. My own primary pick is a single Pithing needle. You can fetch it postboard. I will also be keeping an Oblivion Ring, Runed Halo, a Canonist, and my anti-graveyard suite for now. But I have to tell you that it feels a bit thin even with the deck's typical assortment of defense. The biggest problem I have is with the ineffectiveness of Flickerwisp here. Most artifacts and enchantments can be negated to such a large degree by Flickerwisp that we have come to depend on it. Survival needs to be dealt with properly. All of the tools we have for it are temporary. And an opposing Pridemage ripped off the top of the opponent's deck is probably all he needs to undo any of them. or a hit with a Trygon Predator. It just feels clunky. Unless the matchup really is as good as Lorgalis says, perhaps we need something like Wispmare or even Arbiters.

LegacyDan

10-22-2010, 12:53 PM

So everyone is agreed them? Vengevine Survival is a good matchup, lets change to topic to something we actually have trouble with.

EDIT: I have actually been saving my Wisps to blink the card they target with Pridemage. It has been effective so far for me.

Lorgalis

10-22-2010, 01:06 PM

I'm just saying that UG Survivine is not a problem, at least for the GW version. I haven't played against GW Survival, but since I'm not relying much on Pithing Needle, I don't think that matchup will be bad neither.

However, having you Vial blown by an opposing Pridemage is always annoying.

Question: it seems that everybody assumes that the deck has a good matchup against goblins. However, I find myself struggling against them most of the times...if they get a good start, they're pretty unstoppable unles I get a crazy start myself (like Mom, StP and 3-4 turn Mangara combo online). And I play Goyf, which is golden in the matchup. Any help?

(and don't tell me to get rid of Lackey because I already know that...;))

colo

10-22-2010, 02:04 PM

If Goblins are a force to be reckoned with in your meta, ruin their day by running Burrenton Forge-Tender, Silver Knight and/or Tivadar of Thorn. The latter is Mangara on crack and steroids against them, it's really funny (if you're not the poor sob playing Goblins!).

Penguinizer

10-22-2010, 02:05 PM

I haven't tried the matchup, but Jötun Grunt would seem to be the saving thing in that matchup. Canonist and Arbiter could also put a hurting on them.

Lorgalis

10-26-2010, 11:21 AM

@Colo: Yes, Tivadar is one of the reasons I'm trying the W-Tutor toolbox in my GW version...So far, testing says that if I stick it in play turn 3, the goblins can't win. It's funny to see the goblin player's reaction; no one sees that coming! I wish that Wizards prints something similar against Merfolk in Green...Merfolk is 1/4 of my metagame, so a silver bullet to guaranteedly crush them would be nice.

android

10-27-2010, 01:12 PM

They should print a Tivadar for every tribe. Of course they wouldn't all be in white but still it would really add a new element to sideboarding and promote the creatures matter theme they've been going for. But I'm off track here, continue the discussion.

LegacyDan

10-27-2010, 02:10 PM

HAL

10-28-2010, 01:07 PM

Somewhat awkward question.
My Karakases (or is Karakasi? Or just Karaki?) were stolen.
Yes, really. Stolen.
Anyway, the tournament is this Saturday and D&T is pretty much the only deck I have a good amount of experience playing; in fact the only other deck I have is burn, which I would like to avoid bringing if possible. Anyway, the question: Since I don't have any Karaki at this point, is Mangara worth running (at the very least in the same numbers)? Here's the list I plan on bringing:

//Mana
12x Plains
3x Wasteland
4x Rishadan port
2x Flagstones of Trokair

//Creatures
4x Mother of Runes
3x Kor Duelist
3x Serra Avenger
3x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Leonin Arbiter
3x Jötun Grunt
4x Flickerwisp
2x Mangara of Corondor

//Other Stuff
4x Aether Vial
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Oblivon Ring
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
1x Sword of Body and Mind

I would really like to make it work despite my lacking of the most powerful card in the deck, do you guys have any ideas? I'm kind of at a loss... :(

Lorgalis

10-28-2010, 02:01 PM

Well, it seems that the deck is still reasonable. Having 4 Flickerwisps for your 2 Magaras seems like a good ratio. Also, in this deck, Magara > Oblivion ring most of the time. But depending on your meta (ie: if you're going to play against decks where you need a late-game plan), maybe you could just skip your Mangaras and add 1 Avenger and...1 Stoneforge? 1 Duelist?

By the way, how are the Duelists going? Aren't they just a 1/1 for W a lot of the time?

LegacyDan

10-28-2010, 02:27 PM

Penguinizer

10-28-2010, 02:28 PM

Ouch, I'm sorry for getting your stuff stolen. Any luck finding out who it was?

Should I run Leonin Arbiters SB with Canonists MD or just have the tutor toolbox SB with Canonists MD.?

HAL

10-28-2010, 08:50 PM

Why are you only running three Avengers? Its just an awesome attacker and defender for the deck.

Lorgalis: Honestly, Duelist works well as a two of for the deck. Its a GREAT card, but running more than two of them feels off for most games.
I split the grunts and the avengers 3/3 because SoBaM "feeds" the grunts. If I get an early grunt and an early mystic I usually fetch a SoBaM because it allows my grunt to live for essentially the entire game (unless they remove it), and who doesn't like a bunch of wolves? And if they constantly block my grunt, well, he's a 6/6, that usually means I'm killing a bunch of creatures anyway. IMO, as long as you're running SoBaM, Jotun Grunt is better than Serra Avenger.

LegacyDan

10-29-2010, 10:26 AM

Oh, trust me, I know all about SoBaMs interactions. However, I am have a 4/4 of Avengers and Grunts and I am almost NEVER sad seeing any of them.

HAL

10-29-2010, 11:36 AM

Oh, trust me, I know all about SoBaMs interactions. However, I am have a 4/4 of Avengers and Grunts and I am almost NEVER sad seeing any of them.
I am still have reservations about 4/4, i'm not sure the deck is have room for a 4/4 split, especially since I am want to leave two kor duelists in there. T1 duelist, t2 mystic, t3 jitte is game for a lot of decks (zoo included). I am have 3/3 avengers and grunts for now.

colo

10-29-2010, 11:56 AM

It's not, because every competitve deck (maybe with the expcetion of those which have already won by turn 3, anyway) runs enough removal for your pesky 1/1 with a chance of double strike never to become relevant. At all.

Curby

10-29-2010, 12:27 PM

I probably am missing something, but it actually seems like t1 duelist, t2 mystic, t3 jitte, t4 equip, which is about half an eternity in Legacy time. Also, how is that game for Zoo? They have upwards of twice as much removal as your Duelists and Mystics combined; surely they can draw into one before you swing equipped on turn 4.

This all hinges on the assumption that you're opening with a Duelist and a Mystic (in the first 8-9 cards) , which at 3/3 isn't guaranteed.

I think it CAN work wonderfully, but I'm not sure that "double strike when equipped" is consistently good enough to choose it over other options.

LegacyDan

10-29-2010, 03:47 PM

So then they waste a removal spell on a 1/1 creature and not on your Avenger?

Curby

10-29-2010, 04:22 PM

HAL

10-29-2010, 10:03 PM

I'll gladly bolt your creature to foil 4 turns worth of development, and I wouldn't consider it a waste. Sure you have the mana to cast another two-drop on the fourth turn, but if we assume a level playing field Zoo would have done more than just cast a single bolt in its 4 turns as well.

In fact, your comment identifies the real threat here: it's not the Duelist or the Avenger, but rather the Jitte on the field. Avenger trades with a Nacatl, but Avenger with Jitte eats entire armies.

Again, I can see that Duelist can be amazingly good in some situations. My question is whether it's consistently good enough to merit three precious maindeck spaces. I'm not yet convinced that it's at that level.

I'd actually beg to differ on your statement that you're foiling "4 turns of development." You aren't foiling it at all. Consider these two situations:
T1 duelist
T2 mystic
T3 equipment
T4 equip, attack, etc.

Obviously as soon as they see the duelist they remove it. Now the second situation:
T1 mom
T2 mystic
T3 equipment
T4 equip, attack, etc.

What's the difference between the two situations? One is "win more," the other is more defensive. But in both situations they they try to remove you're one mana spell ASAP, and in both situations you win with an equipment. Let's consider a third situation:
T1 Vial (assume it's vialing in threats the rest of the game)
T2 mystic
T3 equpment
T4 equip, attack, etc.

You see the pattern, right? You aren't building around the duelist. The duelist is just icing. A T2 mystic is what's causing all the problems with your opponent. Yes, duelist is taking up three valuable slots, but one slot is supposed to be a third mangara in the optimal list, and if you recall I have no Karaki at the moment, making 3 mangara sub-optimal. As for the other two slots, they bring the number of CMC1 creatures up to 6, which helps the mana curve and feeds the vial@1. Just think of them as a replacement for Goldmeadow Harrier (which I do not like).

Curby

10-29-2010, 10:35 PM

Obviously as soon as they see the duelist they remove it.

That would be a misplay. Better to tempt them into equipping, and make them lose two mana and a creature instead of just the creature. Mom is another issue altogether: she's more often considered kill on sight because her ability can fire at instant speed.

Ultimately we agree that the equipment is the true threat, and not the Duelist. Without equipment, the Duelist is much less threatening. With any creature (a third of most D&T decks), the equipment can perform well. Instead of having a creature who magnifies (but depends on) equipment, I'd rather have a one-drop that does something else and works by itself. It's a matter of playstyle, and in fact I'm glad that you're trying different things. =)

LegacyDan

10-29-2010, 10:52 PM

colo

10-30-2010, 04:55 AM

HAL

10-30-2010, 12:33 PM

I would like to agree with HAL, but he is off in a few small but major ways. Duelist and Mystic are vialed in. This is essential since D+T's lands are being used for mana denial. Kor Duelist gets there more than you think BECAUSE he is never being hardcast. Removal is harder for them to use against your equipped critters when they are being kept off of their W or R mana.

Yes. This.

Anyway, what would you use instead of kor duelist? It's like running the urza lands in an EDH deck. Sure, most of time they're just colorless lands, but what would you use instead? And if that "what if" scenario happens, you're put way ahead of your opponent in mana. Risk vs. Reward. The risk is near 0, and the reward is slightly above that. There's just not a big reason not to use duelist.

LegacyDan

10-30-2010, 10:58 PM

Mother of Runes is a serious threat (to your opponent's removal engine(s)) as soon as she loses summoning sickness. Kor Duelist has the potential of becoming a threat once he ain't sick no more, is equipped, attacking AND dealing combat damage. And that's really a lot of "ifs" there, actually.

I don't debate that Kor Duelist has no chance whatsoever to be great, or even a deciding factor in a few games where you actually manage to make him hit with something strapped onto his back. But let's face it, there's lots of one-drops that do a lot more, and are a lot less conditional, than Kor Duelist. That's why I wouldn't run it.

So lets take a look at this then. Mom is already used in the deck. Kor Duelist plays well off of the decks equipment package, plus mom protects him very well.

What are the other cards you are talking of? Figure of Destiny? Tried and rejected. He is good, but rarely did it grow beyond a 2/2. Isamaru? It did good things with Karakas but M10 kinda nerfed him. Maybe you can tell us what the other options are?

Lorgalis

11-02-2010, 08:57 AM

I played in at 39-men tournament at my LGS this sunday, with my GW list using the W-tutor toolbox on the side (and 2 Path to Exile). I went:

Round 1: Burn/Mono Red
1st game - He goes out fast, and kills me the turn before I get there.

I side out 4 Arbiters (he doesn't play fetchs) and 1 Vial for 3 W-Tutor, 1 Kor Firewalker and 1 Kitchen Finks.

2nd game - 1st turn W-tutor, 2nd turn Walker, 3rd turn Stoneforge Mystic --> Jitte, Win

3rd game - same as 2nd game.
2-1

Round 2: Rgb Goblins
1st game - A vialed Arbiter in response to him cracking a fetch for Badlands seals the game, as he is holding 3 x Warren Weirding but he is unable to cast them (and I play around his Gempalm Incinerator).

I side out 3 Gaddock Teeg (I know he doesn't play Pyrokinesis) and another card and in goes 3 W-Tutor and 1 Tivadar of Thorn.

2nd game - He kills my 1st mom, but I have a turn 3 Tivadar that gets one Piledriver. I stall the ground until I get a Serra Avenger + Jitte and I win.
2-0

Round 3: Right now I'm pretty motivated, as I get to play on the 1st table. But...of course I'll play against a good player.

1st game - I don't know what he's playing, so I keep what I think is a good hand (no removal or Vial, but Qasali + double Goyf + lands to play them).
Turns out he's playing dredge, so I don't really have a chance without Teeg. I die twice, as Iona rules the sky and a horde of zombies stall the gound.

I wasn't expecting dredge, so I'm pretty bummed as I only have 2 Faerie Macabre and 1 Jötun Grunt to side in; the E-tutor package would give me 1 Tormod's Crypt, 1 Relic of Progenitus and 1 Wheel of Sun and Moon, which is superior against dredge. I side out the 4 Arbiters, 2 Mangaras, 2 Vials for 3 W-tutor, 2 Faerie, 1 Jötun, 2 Path to Exile.

2nd game - Whoa. I've got both Faerie and a W-tutor on my opening hand. I win, as he doesn't expect that from my deck and I cripple him.

3rd game - I suck, and keep a hand with no hate (only gaddock teeg + path) after mulliganing to 6. I kept that because I thought he would keep as slow hand with therapies, but he didn't. He kept a fairly slow hand, and he beats me on his last extra turn.
1-2

Round 4: Merfok 16(?) lords
1st game - he comes out fast, I try to kill his lords but he counters my 3 (!) StP and when I'm going to stabilize, he plays a Sovereign and I lose to an unblockable 5/5 Mutavault.

I side out the Arbiters (he doesn't play fetches) for 2 W-Tutor and 2 Path.

2nd game - He comes out fast again, but this time I block earlier, tax his mana with wasteland. There are good plays:
- I have a Stoneforge Mystic equipped with a SoFaI ready to kick to some fish ass. When I connect, he vials Kira, great glass-spinner. Too bad I have Karakas.
- He has a gigantic Coralhelm Commander killing me. I'm about to lose, but FINALLY I rip Mangara and I win.

3rd game - More or less like game two, but this time he has a a Jitte-equipped Coralhelm Commander vs. my SoFaI Serra Avenger. I win the race thanks to Mother of Runes and Mangara (without Karakas with time).
2-1

Round 5: Mighty Quinn. Wow, I don't want to play this matchup...I'm pretty sure I'll lose, his deck laughs at creatures decks...

1st game - I race, race, race, through 2 Wrath of God and at least 1 StP. I end having a Gaddock teeg with Jitte, and he doesn't have more answers...except for a Runed Halo. I manage to draw lands and another Gaddock while he assembles Painter's Servant + Grindstone and kills me. He's at 1 (!) life.

I side out the StP for more beef (Canonist and True Believer) and W-Tutors.

2nd game - I race, race, race, and manage to win through 2 StP and one Wrath. Phewwwww...

3rd game - Big punt on my part. I have W-Tutor on the opening hand, and I agonize over what to get with it (Gaddock or Qasali)...I choose Qasali Pridemage (in case he has a fast kill). Next turn he plays Humility. I cry. Next turn he plays Moat. I concede.
1-2

Round 6: MonoU (with Volcanic Island and Tropical island for Engineered Explisves). At this point I'm pretty tired since I'm not used to playing 6 rounds of magic, and even I know what he's playing and the matchup is very winnable with the correct cards, I have the vague feeling I'll punt.

1st game - I know that Vial and teeg are vital in this matchup, so I keep a hand with critters and one Teeg. He counters my first two baits, but he also has the counter for my Teeg. The game is lost there, even though I manage to kill a Jace, as he recurs the explosives over and over. I die to Sphinx of Jwar Isle holding a StP.

I side out the StP for...I think it was some Faeries and W-Tutor.

2nd game - I punt, keeping a hand that didn't have Teeg nor Vial, but was pretty good otherwise. He has a grip full of counters and EE, so I don't have a chance.
0-2

Overall, I went 3-3. I know that this isn't spectacular, but hadn't I punted I could have had a much better record (4-2 at the very least). I'll replay the list this Saturday, maybe with minor tweaks on the side.

Any thoughts on creatures that can fight the graveyard other than Jötun Grunt and Faerie Macabre?
Any thoughts on creatures that can fight monoU? I'm thinking of River Boa...

Oxmo39

11-03-2010, 07:56 AM

Guys, I've read for the last few weeks that some (many) of you were sceptical about the inclusion of Leonin Arbiter in the MD.
I have to say that in my experience, he was incredible!
He always annoyed my opponents and stole me games. I can't imagine D&T without him : this card was printed for monowhite decks, playing manadenials like Ports and Wastelands!

I played a tournament last week-end and he was golden! T1 Vial, T2 Port, T3 Vial Arbiter in response to opponent cracking a fetch happened more than once. After that it is difficult for the opponent to recover.

I posted a report for those who'd be interested by it : http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19223-Tournament-Report-3rd-place-with-Death-Taxes-31-ppl

Like i've said, Arbiter rocks and i only can recommend you to insert the full playset in your MD, guys.
Furthermore, I've never been annoyed by the bad interractions with Stoneforge Mystic. It surely requires us to adapt our strategy, but that can only improve the deck.

videogamer99

11-03-2010, 12:38 PM

Creatures (25)
4x Flickerwisp
4x Mother of Ruins
4x Serra Avenger
3x Leonin Arbiter
3x Mangara of Corondor
3x Stoneforge Mystic
2x Jötun Grunt
2x Kor Duelist

Spells (6)
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Oblivion Ring

Artifacts (7)
4x AEther Vial
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Body and Mind
1x Sword of Fire and Ice

Lands (22)
9x Plains
4x Karakas
4x Rishadan Port
3x Wasteland
2x Flagstones of Trokair

Sideboard
3x Cataclysm
3x Ethersworn Canonist
3x Wing Shards
2x Jötun Grunt
2x Tormod's Crypt
1x Leonin Arbiter
1x Sword of Light and Shadow

Me and LegacyDan were talking at my local and I decided to make a list and possible start building this. This is what Ive came up with between watching the deck be played and seeing what people here are saying. How does this look? Also, how good is the E-Tutor sideboard? I usually use a conventional side, but I did love the Mystical Tutor board of ANT. I also want to find room for +1 Oblivion Ring and +1 Umezawa's Jitte. I dont want to cut the Kor Duelists and I dont want to play Goldmeadow Harrier. Harrier just seems terrible too often.

Penguinizer

11-03-2010, 12:44 PM

I suppose some of my distrust in the manascrewing ability came from the fact I had no ports. I should get a few Flagstones for interests sake.

LegacyDan

11-03-2010, 09:12 PM

Flagstones is a weird part of the deck honestly. They can easily be Plains, but it just feels "off" if they are not in there.

AggroSteve

11-04-2010, 09:09 AM

its completely fine to play flagstones in MD if you are playing cataclysm sideboard, i am playing aura of silence over cataclysm, so i do not need the flagstones main

Lorgalis

11-04-2010, 10:02 AM

Time to go Online!!!

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=281630

Penguinizer

11-04-2010, 10:39 AM

I can't wait to play EXILER!

Seriously, the name change? Why? Anyways, the build only has one glaring flaw. Bonesplitter. That says enough. It also could use some tweakin in other areas, however, I'm fairly positively surprised by the fact that Wizards made an ok pre-con. Too bad it's online only.

I might end up spending the some 45 euros it takes me to get it and tweak it a bit if I ever have it.

Lorgalis

11-04-2010, 12:05 PM

Sims

11-04-2010, 12:28 PM

Yes, I agree that thew name is pretty lame, but...the idea is sweet. Also, the list needs some upgrading, but I think that it's a step in the right direction from Wizards to promote Legacy (at least online).

I have an account that I rarely use and I think that I'll buy this. Actually, I'm 99% sure that I'll buy it...

Too bad that this kind of thing will never happen in paper magic... :(

Yeah, sadly it won't happen in paper, but we can dream right?

I'm definitely picking up one of the two, I just haven't decided which one yet. I predominately play pauper online, when i play, so it'd be my first break into legacy on MTGO.. I've got like 50 tix i could spend in upgrades, i just haven't decided which deck would be better yet. I've played enough burn in real life and competitively to have a great feel of the ins and outs of the deck, but I might get the D&T deck just for the fact that its' something different that i'd never play IRL due to Karakas.

I know what the advice would be out of this thread, obviously :) but i just wanted to comment on the online deck series, and not necro the old thread for it.

mrjumbo03

11-07-2010, 05:54 AM

I know that landstill is a weak matchup but what possible cards in the sb would make it less abysmal?

AggroSteve

11-07-2010, 06:30 AM

i would think of needle and abolish, for example, at least if you are playing against the UBG list, i do not know about the UWx lists

but not sure how usefull these cards would be in this matchup, i am using mainly runed halo for jace and factorys but deed is still the main problem

Finn

11-07-2010, 07:13 AM

Runed Halo on Jace is awful. Runed Halo on Factory is awful. Landstill beats you with one thing: card economy. It does not beat you with Mishra's Factory any more than an anaconda kills with its mouth.

Pithing Needle is a good plan. In fact, 4 Needlles is probably good. Against Landstill there are a lot of Needle targets you really have to hit. But the best plan is to put it on a clock. D+T is not especially good at that. Remember to side out your equipment and Mystics. And spot removal of creatures. Ports and Wastelands can be effective against Landstill in some matches. Vial is, of course, are extremely good. Mother of Runes is occasionally very good. Hokori, Dust Drinker is agood. But the big finisher is Cataclysm.

Penguinizer

11-07-2010, 12:02 PM

If I was playing against Landstill, I'd probably side out StPs and Jitte to bring in 2x Cataclysm and 3x Leonin Arbiter. Maybe the last Grunt.

For reference, my SB:

3x Kitchen Finks
3x Leonin Arbiter
3x Wing Shards
3x Tormod's Crypt
2x Cataclysm
1x Jötun Grunt

Lorgalis

11-08-2010, 06:56 AM

I played against 2 Landstills this weekend, and...I hated it.

1st Landstill was the UBg list. I was running my list with W-tutor on the side, so I had no outs to Pernicious Deed. He won easily.

2nd was the UW list. Very close first game, but I lose. I won 2nd game with a Qasali Pridemage equipped with both a Jitte and a SoLaS. 3rd game, I open a hand with 3 (!) Gaddock Teeg. However, I somehow manage to lose as I have no vial :(.

So I am thinking to add 2 Krosan Grip. My sideboard (GW) is:

2 Krosan Grip
3 Worldly Tutor
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Tivadar of Thorn
1 Scryb Ranger
1 True Believer
1 Kor Firewalker
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Burrenton Forge-tender
2 Faerie Macabre

Maëlig

11-09-2010, 08:05 AM

Pithing Needle is a good plan. In fact, 4 Needlles is probably good. Against Landstill there are a lot of Needle targets you really have to hit.

Seconded. It especially shines against (the more popular nowadays) Ugb lists, as stopping deed and jace is crucial in this MU. Between this and the surge of survival decks, I just don't understand people playing less than 4 needles in the SB.

nwong

11-09-2010, 08:42 AM

Agreed, the usefulness of pithing needle (and to a lesser extent, leonin arbiter) has me thinking about departing from the tutor sideboard in favour of a more conventional one.

Here's the list i'm using now for reference:

Land
4 Windswept Heath
4 Savannah
5 Plains
1 Forest
3 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy

Creatures
4 Flickerwisp
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Mangara of Corondor
4 Mother of Runes
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Serra Avenger
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf

Other
4 AEther Vial
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Swords to Plowshares

Sideboard
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Aura of Silence
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Runed Halo
1 Meekstone
1 Gaddock Teeg

The SoBaM is just there because I'm testing it right now. If it isn't good enough, it'll probably make space for another tutor or an extra kgrip.

If i was to change the sideboard, it'd probably look something like

3 Leonin Arbiter
3 Kitchen Finks / Ethersworn Canonist
3 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Krosan Grip

Thoughts?

mrjumbo03

11-09-2010, 10:36 AM

From the games that i have played, i never had issues regarding the leonin arbiter and the tutor board... the same goes with the stoneforge mystics... it's all about knowing the matchups and which cards to play first in those specific matchups...that and a little bit of luck i guess...:)

Curby

11-09-2010, 11:00 AM

Where do you see the deck heading, in terms of overall strategy? People seem to be liking the idea of splashing green in for Goyf and Pridemage, which gives a little more utility but a lot more combat power. Do we need that power, or would our overall effectiveness be better served by making better use of our creature tricks?

Over at MTGS someone posted a high-finishing list with green for Pridemage and Scryb Ranger. The Ranger saves Savannahs from Wasteland, acts as pseudo mana sources by themselves, doubles the effect of Mangara, Mom, and Harrier, carries equipment over blockers' heads, blocks huge flying Merfolk all day, is immune to Jace and Echoing Truth, and does all of that at surprise speeds. As always, Goyf is "just" big.

So the question again is utility or size. Personally I'm thrilled with the additional tricks that Scryb Ranger advertises, but sometimes you just need a ton of meat. Thoughts?

Penguinizer

11-09-2010, 03:30 PM

I'd go for the splash if I had the money for 4x Savannah and 4x Tarmogoyf. I'll probably just stick with MW for those reasons.

Parax

11-09-2010, 04:06 PM

DalkonCledwin

11-09-2010, 04:39 PM

If i was playing the green list i would be playing Linving Wish (Life and Taxes). It'd grab you Karakas in a pinch, and it'd allow you to grab what you need in the sideboard. Normally i'd place a Mom, Managara, Karakas and then some specific hate. I don't like Goyf as he doesn't have anything to actually offer the deck, for "dumb beats" i'd might as well run KotR since he can at least grab you the land you need.

saying that Tarmogoyf has nothing to offer the deck is a might bit unfair. For one thing Tarmogoyf has the ability to block other Tarmogoyf's all day long. That is something that none of this decks other creatures can do (at least not without Sword of Body and Mind equipped). Additionally, when combined with Qasali Pridemage, Tarmogoyf becomes a force that can beat through defending Tarmogoyfs. Which isn't that shabby of a prospect in and of itself.

Ultimately, the only real advantage that Knight of the Reliquary has over Tarmogoyf, is that it can tutor up lands. And in order to do so it needs to sacrifice lands to begin with. In my personal opinion that is a trade off that this deck cannot afford easily. Thus I am against using Knight of the Reliquary in this deck.

nwong

11-09-2010, 10:39 PM

Personally I think having Mangara and Flickerwisp is enough tricks. The way I see it,Mangara and Mum are major lightning rods, so I prefer not to use cards like Scryb Ranger which need other cards on the board to do their cute tricks.

The flying is only relevant if we can get an equip on it, and usually the protection from the equip gives evasion anyway. The pro-blue is useful, but usually doesn't do very much. I've never had much of a problem against merfolk, so Scryb Ranger isn't really necessary in my opinion.

On the other hand, the goyf is good on its own and puts them on a clock - something that this deck often struggles to do.

So yes, we do lose some utility by playing goyf over say, Jotun Grunt or Scryb Ranger, but I think the bigger body and faster block is worth it.

As for Living Wish, I've tested it and found it to be extremely slow. This deck doesn't need to set up Karakas/Mangara in order to win - it's just a nice bonus. Using Living Wish to fetch your hate is also far too slow - especially if you don't have an active vial, which, for me, happens quite often.

mrjumbo03

11-09-2010, 11:10 PM

saying that Tarmogoyf has nothing to offer the deck is a might bit unfair. For one thing Tarmogoyf has the ability to block other Tarmogoyf's all day long. That is something that none of this decks other creatures can do (at least not without Sword of Body and Mind equipped). Additionally, when combined with Qasali Pridemage, Tarmogoyf becomes a force that can beat through defending Tarmogoyfs. Which isn't that shabby of a prospect in and of itself.

Ultimately, the only real advantage that Knight of the Reliquary has over Tarmogoyf, is that it can tutor up lands. And in order to do so it needs to sacrifice lands to begin with. In my personal opinion that is a trade off that this deck cannot afford easily. Thus I am against using Knight of the Reliquary in this deck.

Actually, Jotun eats up opposing goyfs...and mother can chump block it all day too...

Another trick with scryb ranger would be untapping a creature on your opponent's turn to block (imagine if the creature you untapped had a jitte equipped)...i think with all the tricks scryb ranger give the deck, it should warrant the slot over tarmogoyfs...in the right situation, scryb ranger turns the game into a blowout... which is basically in line with the whole direction of the deck, wherein you take small unexpected tricks and add them all up to cripple the enemy... time to save up for some savannahs!

DalkonCledwin

11-09-2010, 11:17 PM

Actually, Jotun eats up opposing goyfs...and mother can chump block it all day too...

Another trick with scryb ranger would be untapping a creature on your opponent's turn to block (imagine if the creature you untapped had a jitte equipped)...i think with all the tricks scryb ranger give the deck, it should warrant the slot over tarmogoyfs...in the right situation, scryb ranger turns the game into a blowout... which is basically in line with the whole direction of the deck, wherein you take small unexpected tricks and add them all up to cripple the enemy... time to save up for some savannahs!

Chumping a Goyf with Mother of Runes is usually a bad policy, especially against decks such as Zoo where you should be saving Mother of Runes activations for protecting your creatures from removal. As far as Jotun Grunt is concerned, I have found that often times that he is as much of a hindrance as a benefit when it comes to eating goyfs. Mainly because while he does shrink both Tarmogoyf and Knight of the Reliquary in the short term, he does not in actuality ANSWER them permanently, unless your opponent is desperate enough to either attack into the Grunt or block the Grunt. Which is to say most opponents I have encountered unless they are sitting at extremely low life already, tend to not be desperate enough to do so. Thus I would rather have my own Goyf instead of the Grunt.

And yes, Scryb Ranger is simply amazing in the Green White version of the deck. It is perhaps one of the best innovations to come to the deck that I have seen in some time.

Lorgalis

11-10-2010, 09:17 AM

Can somebody post a list with maindeck Scryb Ranger? Because I play a GW list and has one in the sidem, but in the last two events I attented to I never sided it in...

Also, Living Wish is not good in this deck. Too slow. I have tested it and never liked it. Same thing for Knight of the Reliquary. The idea is that once you put green in the mix, you're not so reliant on Mangara + Karakas. They are just a bonus, or something that gives you inevitability on the long game.

I am interested in looking at other people's GW lists, so if you're kind enough to post them or PM them to me...

Osmin

11-10-2010, 09:45 AM

Does anybody use Sylvan Library in GW build? It seems to be good.

mrjumbo03

11-10-2010, 09:47 AM

4 mothers of the runes
4 flickerwisp
3 mangara of corondor
4 qasali priedmage
3 scryb ranger
3 stoneforge mystic
4 aeter vial
4 oblivion ring
4 swords to plowshares
1 umezawa's jitte
1 sword of fire and ice
1 sword of light and shadow
4Windswept Heath
3 savannah
2 plains
1 forest
3 karakas
4 horizon canopy
4 wasteland
3 rishadan port

Here's the list posted in MTGS that top 8'd in a 65-man tourney in Lucca, Italy although the sideboard is unknown...:(
Personally i don't think the list is optimal as having 4 qasali pridemages and 4 oblivion rings is overkill... also it runs 24 lands which i think is too much too... maybe removing some o-rings and some lands to fit in 4 serra avengers and maybe 2 grunts...but that's just my personal observation... having 10 ways to get 2 mangara activations (3 karakas, 3 scryb ranger and 4 flickerwisp) is full of win for me in mws testing... it's really hard to come back from... sadly i don't own savannahs yet in real life...

Lorgalis

11-10-2010, 10:01 AM

Yes, I can fully agree that this list *seems* a bit sketchy, however, making top 8 in a 65-man event is nice indeed. What I don't like:

- 4 Wasteland + 3 Rishadan Port in a deck with that plays 2 colors. That seems to open the door to mana problems.

- 24 lands? Really? Seems too much. I'd cut 2 at least.

- 4 Oblivion Ring and 4 Pridemage. I think we can safely cut the 4 Oblivion Rings.

- No Goyf nor Avenger? Those 2 are, without a doubt, the best beaters available to this archetype.

Curby

11-10-2010, 03:34 PM

Those were my thoughts too. I'm not too disappointed by the lack of Goyfs in itself, but taking out Avenger and Grunt at the same time seems to weaken the deck significantly. Quoting myself:

The Green additions are interesting, but the list overall is a little confusing. Why the need for O-Rings and Pridemages, and four of each no less? They're both awesome cards, but there's an overall reduction in combat strength (-Serra Avenger, -Jotun Grunt, +Pridemage) in the build as posted. Also, there's a reduction of versatility (-Grunt, -Harrier) in creature tricks. Folks have considered cutting Rings anyway and replacing them with Wispmares and the like.

Scryb Ranger seems like an awesome choice, but since her ability can be used to increase the effective mana in the deck, the increase to 24 land also seems suspect.

From the list as posted, I'd propose taking away 4-6 Rings and Pridemages, and adding back 3-4 Avengers and 1-2 Harriers. The Harriers have the additional advantage of working well with the Rangers.

Something tells me the manabase could also use some help, but I'm not quite sure how to improve that. Any ideas?

Penguinizer

11-11-2010, 01:47 PM

Is the GW list worth getting without Goyf?

I might just splurge on the 3-4 Fetches I need as well as saving up for a few dual lands. The abiltiy to splash MD Qasali is handy. SB Gaddock Teeq and Krosan Grip is also nice. Scryb Ranger seems really interesting as well.

Would something like this seem sensible:

4x Flickerwisp
3x Mangara
4x Serra Avenger
4x Qasali Pridemage
3x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Scry Ranger
4x Mother of Runes

4x Aether Vial
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
2x Oblivion Ring

4x Windswepth Heath
4x Wasteland
3x Horizon Canopy
3x Savannah
3x Karakas
3x Plains
2x Forest

SB:
3x Wing Shards
3x Krosan Grip
3x Ethersworn Canonist
3x Gaddock Teeq
3x Tormod's Crypt

I might end up cutting down to two Savannahs to fit my budget and replace one with a 5th fetch of indeterminate type. How does it seem for a no-goyf list? Should the Oblivion Rings be cut along with 1 Avenger or something else to fit 3x Knight of the Reliquary? I would like to try to fit Jötun Grunts and Cataclysm in there somewhere.

Osmin

11-11-2010, 02:42 PM

What about Sylvan Library in GW? As 2- or 3-of. It improves topdecks.

overseer1234

11-11-2010, 02:58 PM

What about Sylvan Library in GW? As 2- or 3-of. It improves topdecks.

I would prefer mirri's guile over it since it's another good turn 1 drop. (and the deck's pretty packed with 2mana cards allready...)

Unless you plan to pay the life for the extra cards frequently, bit I agree to test them both and see what gives....

DalkonCledwin

11-11-2010, 03:22 PM

I would prefer mirri's guile over it since it's another good turn 1 drop. (and the deck's pretty packed with 2mana cards allready...)

Unless you plan to pay the life for the extra cards frequently, bit I agree to test them both and see what gives....

I don't think either of these options is necessarily requisite for the deck. Since both tend to lower the card quality of the deck in favor of improving card advantage. I prefer to have superior card quality over improved card advantage personally. I mean in all honesty this deck runs plenty of cards to improve card advantage (Tutor Board, Stoneforge Mystic, Fetchlands, and most importantly Horizon Canopy), is it really necessary to further dilute the rest of the deck with additional cards to improve card advantage?

DragoFireheart

11-11-2010, 03:43 PM

Is the GW list worth getting without Goyf?

- Not really, but you can still run grunt in place of him if you want.

I might just splurge on the 3-4 Fetches I need as well as saving up for a few dual lands. The abiltiy to splash MD Qasali is handy. SB Gaddock Teeq and Krosan Grip is also nice. Scryb Ranger seems really interesting as well.

Scryb Ranger can chump merfolk all day and can counter wasteland effects by returning lands to your hand.

nwong

11-11-2010, 04:57 PM

I don't think either of these options is necessarily requisite for the deck. Since both tend to lower the card quality of the deck in favor of improving card advantage. I prefer to have superior card quality over improved card advantage personally. I mean in all honesty this deck runs plenty of cards to improve card advantage (Tutor Board, Stoneforge Mystic, Fetchlands, and most importantly Horizon Canopy), is it really necessary to further dilute the rest of the deck with additional cards to improve card advantage?

Just thought I'd point out that E. Tutor isn't card advantage. In fact you lose a card by playing it.

DalkonCledwin

11-11-2010, 05:28 PM

Just thought I'd point out that E. Tutor isn't card advantage. In fact you lose a card by playing it.

this may be true, but at the same time you are gaining an advantage on your opponent. Additionally Enlightened Tutor is currently the best tutor effect short of Survival of the Fittest / Fauna Shaman in Legacy.

Penguinizer

11-11-2010, 06:16 PM

- Not really, but you can still run grunt in place of him if you want.

So, cutting 2 oblivion rings and something is worth it for adding Goyf instead of KotR? I'll need to test this online and with proxies.

Lorgalis

11-11-2010, 07:34 PM

I'd say that the main advantages of running green are:
- Pridemage
- Goyf
- Gaddock
in that order. However, Scryb seems promising for all the tricks it enables (don't forget you can use it to activate Mangara twice).
Regarding the other cards mentioned:
- Knight of the Reliquary: I don't like it. I've tried it and it doesn't seem to belong in this deck. I'm tempted to say that it *might* replace Goyf if you don't have it, but Grunt is probable better.
- Mirri's Guile/Sylvan Library: Haven't tried them, but Dalkon is right. We want supreme card quality + tricks, and for the late game We have 3 Horizon Canopy. However, if somebody feels like trying it, please report here your testing.
- Oblivion Ring isn't needed when you play Pridemage. You can cut them for more beef.

mrjumbo03

11-11-2010, 10:30 PM

I'm with Penguinizer in removing 2 O-rings, and its place put in some grunts...tarmogoyfs are powerful but you don't have to put it into all decks that run green...

DalkonCledwin

11-11-2010, 11:08 PM

I'm with Penguinizer in removing 2 O-rings, and its place put in some grunts...tarmogoyfs are powerful but you don't have to put it into all decks that run green...

SACRILEGE!!!!

But yeah, if you can't afford the Goyf's for whatever reason, then I would highly recommend the Grunts in their place until such time as you can get the Goyfs.

Maëlig

11-12-2010, 06:30 AM

I've been running a green splash in D&T for quite some time now, and my list has naturally evolved towards what is now called "GW maverick", although I'm not particularily fond of that name. I basically run a "standard" maverick list, but with 3 karakas and 3 mangaras in the flex slots. It is really the best shell to exploit mangara, as it complements the mana-denial suite nicely, ranger gives you 2 activations, and between wayfarer and KotR you almost always have karakas when you need it. Admitedly, it's quite different from the mono-white classic D&T lists and it might not have its place here, but I'd just like to point out that this is an interesting direction this deck can take.
Just like kirbysdl, I'm still unsure as to whever goyf has its place in here. I haven't been terribly impressed by it, but it's still quite nice to have to hold off aggro, particularily zoo. I'd say it's a metagame call.

CleverPetriDish

11-12-2010, 02:35 PM

Heh,

'"standard" maverick'

Funny.

That is all.

DalkonCledwin

11-12-2010, 04:55 PM

not being familiar with standard... what exactly is a "Standard Maverick" List?

Barook

11-12-2010, 05:07 PM

How does Quirion Ranger perform compared to Scryb Ranger?

It's a 1-drop instead of a 2-drop, after all.

DalkonCledwin

11-12-2010, 05:22 PM

How does Quirion Ranger perform compared to Scryb Ranger?

It's a 1-drop instead of a 2-drop, after all.

I prefer Scryb Ranger for the fact that it has flash, and the fact that it has Pro-Blue and Flying.

Maëlig

11-12-2010, 07:28 PM

not being familiar with standard... what exactly is a "Standard Maverick" List?
Err sorry I tend to do direct translations from french which are not always very accurate. What I meant is "classic" of course, ie :
3 wayfarer
4 hierarch
4 mother
3 scryb ranger (could be quirion btw, but this is to optimize the curve)
3 qasali
3 stoneforge
4 KotR
4 vial
4 swords
3 pieces of equipment (jitte, 2 swords)
From the different lists I have seen this seems to be the core of maverick. My list is basically this + mangara. I like to think of it as WG D&T, because it has gradualy evolved from a classic D&T list and still features mangara. It's very much a different deck though.

SpikeyMikey

11-12-2010, 07:40 PM

Ranger has cute interactions not only with Mangara but also Mom and KotR if you were to run him. Double waste. You could probably even work it to Wayfarer in response to fetching lamds. But it seems like it might be a bit of a win more. Still, it's got me thinking of trying to build a Ranger/Mangara deck.

Oiolosse

11-13-2010, 02:53 AM

I have a question. Does Maze of Ith interact with Mangara like I hope it does? Can I Tap Mangara, Tap Maze untapping Mangara, Tap Mangara, Tap Karakas returning Mangara? Do I remove two permanents from the game? I am assuming Maze of Ith also works like this with Wayfarer, KotR, Mom?

nwong

11-13-2010, 04:51 AM

Oiolosse

11-13-2010, 09:36 AM

No, because you have to tap them to attack before you can use maze to untap.

Thank you for being kind.

colo

11-13-2010, 10:21 AM

There is, of course, a solution to this problem (http://magiccards.info/9e/en/44.html)!!1!

(I'm just kidding, actually. Though it'd be nice to pull that off in an actual game, for hilarity's sake alone. :))

Penguinizer

11-14-2010, 12:03 PM

Some people were going to use Sword of Vengeance (including me). Too bad it sucked. It'd have done the same thing.

LegacyDan

11-14-2010, 02:54 PM

Yeah, we kinda figured that out months ago.

Penguinizer

11-15-2010, 08:14 AM

Yeah. I figured it out the first time I tried it. It was horrible. It only worked once, and even then a Sword of Fire and Ice would have done the same thing.

Osmin

11-16-2010, 03:56 AM

Hi all!
Last week I built my D'n'T deck as a copy of OP list (to start with). I want to tweak it to my meta. Decks are Survival variants (BGW with and without Vengevines, GW with Vengevines and so on), Bant CounterTop, BG Pox, less common Merfolks, rarely Goblins, Dredge and Combo.
I think to add in SB 3 Aven Mindcensor instead of 1 Tutor, 1 Aura of Silence and 1 Stoneforge Mystic. I don't see use of Aura of Silence because I don't know what to side out for it and tutors. Sideboard plan should be the following:
Survival: +3 Aven Mindcensor, -1 SoFI, -2 Goldmeadow Harrier
Bant CounterTop: +1 Condemn, +1 Grunt, -2 Goldmeadow Harrier
BG Pox: +2 Tutor, +1 Relic, +1 Wheel of Sun and Moon, -2 Oblivion Ring, -2 Goldmeadow Harrier
Merfolks:+3 Cataclysm, +1 Condemn, -3 Grunt, -1 SoLS

Huh, I really think to remove Harrier from MD. (One guy advised to replace it with Disenchant or with War Priest of Thune)
Comments? Thoughts? Thanks in advance :)

AggroSteve

11-16-2010, 07:07 AM

i like war priest of thune, but only for sympathy i'd say, since there are not that many enchantments that are extremely problematic AND are often played

deed obviously is the most problematic one, thats for sure, after that, the whole enchantress deck would be a possible target, and counterbalance, but counterbalance is not that much of a problem given we land a vial 1st turn

conclusion = he is too weak, or not usefull enough, except your meta is only enchantress, and maybe landstill and both of them are horrible matchups even if he would be maindeck

well ok he would at least kill a survival, thats not bad..... but still i think he is to weak, but please convince me of the opposite since i love his artwork

actually in your meta i think harrier is still good, probably the best choice we have (at least what i can think about right now)

Blackmagic

11-16-2010, 10:24 AM

mrjumbo03

11-16-2010, 11:06 AM

This has actually been raised in the thread in mtg salvation... and i think it's good maybe 2 or even 3-of in place of the o-ring...other than the evoke cost, it costs 3 so it sits right where you want the counters of aether vial to be...plus it has evasion which is great to get your equipped swings go through...

Curby

11-16-2010, 11:10 AM

- 4 Wasteland + 3 Rishadan Port in a deck with that plays 2 colors. That seems to open the door to mana problems.

- 24 lands? Really? Seems too much. I'd cut 2 at least.

Three things help save the deck against your first concern: (1) having more land, as in your second concern, (2) Vial, and (3) Scryb Ranger gives you more mana by bouncing your Savannah for reuse when you don't draw a land.

Maybe the land situation isn't as bad as I thought. The lack of combat strength seems like an issue though. No Grunts, Avengers, or Goyfs seems like a bad idea. Good thing there are plenty of O-Rings to take out of that list. =)

By the way, what's your take on the right number of Stoneforge Mystics? I'm a little curious why Finn has a fourth in the side, when more diverse tricks like a Pithing Needle seem like it would add a lot more value.

Lorgalis

11-16-2010, 11:32 AM

I'd never, never, never play 24 lands in this deck. They're too many. I'd rather be drawing something actually relevant than just more land. The deck is not mana hungry.

You absolutely need 7-8 in a combination between Goyf, Grunt and Avenger to be able to beat face. I run 4 Goyf and 3 Avenger and I'm satisfied with it; though I might up the Avengers to 4.

As for Mystic, I run the standard 3 MD, 0 SB. Finn had 1 in the side because he felt it helped him fight Zoo, if I remeber correctly. With the G splash the Zoo matchup is not so bad.

Penguinizer

11-17-2010, 05:19 AM

Would KotR be an acceptable replacement for goyf? It sits at cmc 3 so you can have vial at 3 for it, flickerwisp and mangara. The ability to get wastelands might help in some matchups.

None the less. I might run 3 avenger, 3 KotR and 4 flickerwisps or 4 avenger, 3 KotR, 3 flickerwisp. I like having 4 flickerwisps for all the tricks. Avenger is just so much better offensively though.

Lorgalis

11-17-2010, 05:46 AM

My opinion is that KotR doesn't belong in the deck. My reason: Finn made the deck. I tried it when it was already fully developped (the monoW version). I tested it, but found it lacking in speed. Because, even though it had a good late game (Mangara+Karakas), that doesn't make the cut against some decks and there were other aggro decks that killed you before you reached that point. I thought of adding some early beef, and the natural options were Qasali Pridemage and Tarmogoyf; Gaddock teeg came as a bonus. The point I'm trying to get accross is that Qasali replaces oblivion Ring, Goyf replaces Grunt; KotR doesn't replace anything. You see? We're still playing D&T, but with green. However, I have tested it and always found it lackluster. It doesn't get very big (I only run 4 fetches and no Flagstones), it is slow, it costs 3, it is vulnerable to graveyard hate...also, the Wasteland fetching ability is not reliable: you'll only use it if you have Vial active, and that doesn't happen every game. Besides, if you have Vial active, the game probably is not going very bad for you. Also, people say "Well, it fetches Karakas!". I don't mind. The whole point of the green splash is to make the deck faster and not so reliant on Managara+Karakas. If you want to hit Mangara+Karakas reliably, play Living Wish.

tldr; Don't play KotR. Play 4 Avenger, 4 Flickerwisp and 2 Grunt. That's what I play online, as I haven't bought the goyfs yet... ;)

havana

11-17-2010, 06:40 AM

What about wispmare instead of war priest?

I'm thinking the evoke cost could allow you to destroy survival on your first turn if you're opponent drops one in his second turn (you being on the draw) which could make a difference.

That was better than War Priest of Thune, that's orrible. We can play Wispamre for W and in response use flicker to have 2 flying creatures in play.

I try 2 Wispmare (instead of Harrier) against survival and I don't draw it in the right time, in other match it's awful. I remove it and try 2 Kitchen Finks in mainboard (for 2 goldmeadow harrier) and I prefer 2/3 disenchant/abolish in my sideboard.

AggroSteve

11-17-2010, 04:23 PM

i am playing abolish in sideboard over disenchat (counterbalance and more speed because of alternative casting cost)

honestly use your creature slots wisely guys, or its a defensive creature/ disruptive creature or otherwise a beater, nothing else

Maëlig

11-18-2010, 06:09 PM

My opinion is that KotR doesn't belong in the deck. My reason: Finn made the deck.
I don't quite get it, what do you mean by that exactly?

I tried it when it was already fully developped (the monoW version). I tested it, but found it lacking in speed. Because, even though it had a good late game (Mangara+Karakas), that doesn't make the cut against some decks and there were other aggro decks that killed you before you reached that point. I thought of adding some early beef, and the natural options were Qasali Pridemage and Tarmogoyf; Gaddock teeg came as a bonus. The point I'm trying to get accross is that Qasali replaces oblivion Ring, Goyf replaces Grunt; KotR doesn't replace anything. You see? We're still playing D&T, but with green.
Don't blind yourself into sticking too close to the classic build. If you're going to make some changes to the deck, such as adding a color, you should accept that this might change it substantially. Just because KotR doesn't "replace anything" strictly speaking doesn't mean it's no good. Sure, it will shake things up a bit, but if you end up with generally better results, then how is that a problem? I do agree that flickerwisp + mangara + KotR is too many 3cc though, that's why I've been playing without flickerwisp for quite some time now, and tbh never really missed it. KotR is both the biggest beater you'll ever get, and a great complement to your LD strategy. In fact, I'd go as far to say that it's the best creature in the version of the deck I'm playing.

Curby

11-18-2010, 06:22 PM

This goes back to what I wrote earlier. Does the deck do better with more tricks or more beef? On that page I was writing about Goyf vs Ranger, but I suppose it also applies to KotR vs Flickerwisp. Many have posted about how Flickerwisp is the best card in the deck, and clearly his flexibility is amazing for defense, offense, and disruption. KotR also has tricks, but they don't seem quite as breathtaking. He's bigger, but he has to wade through ground forces. If you're going Goyf+KotR, it seems to go from an aggro-CONTROL deck to an AGGRO-control deck. In other words, it might not only be a question of effectiveness but also of play style.

Blackmagic

11-19-2010, 02:39 AM

@havana

Just wanted to know if you're going to test anymore with wispmare?

I was suggesting it as a sideboard card in the first place, and probably a 3 of.
Not getting one in a game doesn't really warrant it being thrown to the side and considered as bad, test it some more.

I just think you're discarding the idea too soon.

Lorgalis

11-19-2010, 06:51 AM

Penguinizer

11-19-2010, 08:38 PM

After thinking about it for a bit, I might try something like this:

// Lands
4 Windswept Heath
3 Savannah
4 Horizon Canopy
3 Karakas
4 Wasteland
1 Seijiri Steppe
2 Plains
1 Forest

// Creatures
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 Flickerwisp
4 Serra Avenger
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Mother of Runes

// Spells
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

// Sideboard

SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Wing Shards
SB: 3 Gaddock Teeq (Might switch this with the MD Canonists)
SB: 3 Kitchen Finks
SB: 2 Cataclysm
SB: 1 open slot. Might be a 4th canonist or 4th crypt.

I'm sacrificing some of the Scryb Ranger tricks in favor of building a lightly more aggro-style deck. I really like Canonist MD as well. KotR could be switched out for any good beater.

Maëlig

11-23-2010, 09:01 AM

@Mäelig: From your list, I can see that you're not really playing D&T. As you said, you're playing Maverick. I don't play KotR for the reasons I stated before...but that could change over time. For now, however, I don't see changing anything from my list.

Hey, all I'm trying to say is that the two decks aren't so different. Sure, they have different creature packages, but it's still midrange aggro packing creatures with added value (ie disruption). As a consequence, both decks can learn from the sucess of each others, and it is my opinion that a hybrid build is extremely strong at the moment.

Antonius

11-24-2010, 02:00 AM

I have a question, since I'm noob to this archetype: is there a loop with Flickerwisp and Mangara or does Flickerwisp just allow you to re-use Mangara once?

Also, has 8.5 Tails ever been played in this archetype or is he less than optimal? He's extremely powerful given enough mana...but Mana can be at a premium at times.

AggroSteve

11-24-2010, 02:15 AM

8.5 tails has been plazed and was considered subpar and to manahungry if i remember right

and flickerwisp does allow you to reuse mangara once, but you have to use vial to get flickerwisp in play in response to mangara activation, othervise mangara will be gone forever, but flickerwisp has a lot of other uses as well

removing blocker, remove opponents attacker, so it has again summoning sicknes, setting the counters of a chalice or a engineered explosives to 0, or setting the loyalty-counters of an opposing planeswalker to their initial value, killing a dreadnought or marit lage ......

i think now you should have a picture of how usefull flickerwisp is

Antonius

11-24-2010, 02:46 AM

Well, I came up with this off shoot of Death and Taxes that could best be described as Clerics Tribal:

3 Karakas
11 Plains
4 Rishadan
4 Wasteland

4 Aether Vial
3 Umezawa's Jitte

2 Oblivion Ring

4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Mother of Runes
3 Planar Guide
4 Leonin Arbiter
2 Beloved Chaplain
3 War Priest of Thune
1 True Believer
2 8.5 Tails
3 Master Apothecary
3 Mangara of Corondor

It's frustratingly hard to play against and has multiple ways of locking the combat step, either with Apothecary fogs or 8.5. Planar Guide is roughly equivalent to Flickerwisp as far as Mangara interactions go, though it has the added value of protecting the congregation from deed wrath or spout. So far, it has some promise. It's pretty good against survival, at least.

Osmin

11-24-2010, 11:18 AM

Planar Guide is not equivalent Flickerwisp in helping Mangara. Using Guide Mangara can't remove another creature, because that creature will be removed by Guide.

from Cairo

11-24-2010, 03:03 PM

Well, I came up with this off shoot of Death and Taxes that could best be described as Clerics Tribal

What's the advantage of using these alternative creatures?

Specifically: Master Apothecary, Planar Guide, True Believer, Beloved Chaplin... are you finding them to be better than conventional: Serra Avenger, Jotun Grunt, Stoneforge Mystic, Flickerwisp? It seems like you lose any threat of a clock IE nothing swings for more than 2 and you have no evasion. I guess the creature set up is ok versus agro since you can just attition battle them with a field of protection creatures and damage prevention tricks, but we can beat most agro with the conventional list anyway. Combo and Jace based control seem like a nightmare with such a defensive set up.

Jackehehe

11-24-2010, 05:04 PM

Hello everyone! I am a former dreadstill player who just recently started playing this deck, I havent played it in any tourneys yet but frequently playing it on MWS and I have to say, woah, this deck is nothing short of amazing!

I have some thoughts on this deck and I would really appreciate some feedback on them.

First of all, how does this deck fare in a creature-based meta (lots of tribal, especially goblins/merfolk)? My local meta is sprawling with them

How is the Survival MU?

in my brief testing period I've found that running green splash seems to be the way to go. Grunts are replaced with goyfs and then possibly O-ring for qasali and I guess Teeg could be sideboarded as well. What are your thoughts on this? what are the pros and cons with the green splash?

thanks in advance

Grymer

11-24-2010, 05:20 PM

yea D&T is very good aginst trible decks :) så give it a shot and ownd the merfolk and goblin decks ;)

Finn

11-24-2010, 06:43 PM

Hi folks. Some thoughts after reading the last bunch of posts:

1. The deck is and must continue to be tailored to the metagame it is used in. This is true for all decks, but in a deck with something with 10-12 counterspells, not as much since those are catch-all defense. But in D+T the creatures must be accurate for your meta or your disruption will be wrong. Sowhether or not to go WG is included in this decision. The build in the OP atm is for the pre-Vengevine metagame with lots of Lands, Zoo, Dredge, Countertop, and Merfolk. It definitely needs some patchup work. Feel free to let me know how you think it should be mended. I am talking aout the monowhite build, now mind you...
2. I think it is time for me to include a green splash build in the OP. I mean, I guess there could be a new thread, but there is plenty of discussion here for that so please let us see your builds. I have some ideas myself, but they are really just my guesses since I have very little experience with it.
3. The Venge-surivial matchup has received a lot of attention by D+T players, but I have not spoken to anyone who has solid info on how hard it is. In my experience, it is not that tough, but I think my build has something to do with that. Just like with so many matchups, there are a lot of little things that annoy those players. But we have little to say to the crazy openings they can get. I lose those. But I can't even tell you if it is definitely positive or not. We need to know this. I admit that I am not up to date. It's a down time for me and Magic. So solid info would be lovely.

mrjumbo03

11-24-2010, 07:07 PM

I think MD 4 Arbiters definitely needs a look...it wrecks so much decks specially when you vial it in, in response to an oppopnent's fetch...i think it fits the mana denial plan of the deck...it also is very good against survivals...

LegacyDan

11-24-2010, 08:50 PM

@ Jumbo: Arbiter is a true meta call. Mine meta doesn't allow me to run them, at all. Others might.

@ Survival decks: LOL, they need a permanent to go off. Most versions of D+T I have seen have at least 10-12 card slots that handle Survival decks without dedicating time to the archtype itself.

Penguinizer

11-25-2010, 04:48 AM

I find that MD Canonist is also rather handy against Survival. MD Canonist or Arbiter is all a matter of taste. I like canonist more MD, but I still keep Arbiters in the SB.

Antonius

11-25-2010, 04:54 AM

What's the advantage of using these alternative creatures?

Specifically: Master Apothecary, Planar Guide, True Believer, Beloved Chaplin... are you finding them to be better than conventional: Serra Avenger, Jotun Grunt, Stoneforge Mystic, Flickerwisp? It seems like you lose any threat of a clock IE nothing swings for more than 2 and you have no evasion. I guess the creature set up is ok versus agro since you can just attition battle them with a field of protection creatures and damage prevention tricks, but we can beat most agro with the conventional list anyway. Combo and Jace based control seem like a nightmare with such a defensive set up.

I havent played a lot of DnT, so I wouldn't know. I'm not sure if this alternative can truly be considered better or worse...just different. I came up with it one day for fun then started playing it and noticed it had potential to be more than just a "fun" deck.

I started with Arbiter, as its a real hoser against survival and the rest of the format that extensively uses fetchlands and tutors. As such, SFM had to come out, because that is very much a nonbo.

I found Master Apothecary to be good as he basically makes the entire board > Firespout (one of two sweepers played in the format, the other being deed) . Guide, i discovered later as a way to protect from deed, although its clearly suboptimal when compared to Flickerwisp as far as Mangara tricks go. Guide's slot was originally Ethersworn Canonists but I eventually cut down then replaced the last one MD for True Believer. The two are interchangeable hate bears vs Combo, but true believer is better vs burn. I do believe that War Priest is good enough to be run main in this meta, cleric or not.

As for threats: well, yeah. The decks is basically a stack of hate bears. The only real threat is Jitte. However, Chaplain carries Jitte with evasion and Tails can provide some evasion too.
Combo: I run a lot of main deck hate bears, so its going to come down to draws. Did they get burning wish or infernal or do they have pocket Ad Nauseam? Active Mom or 8.5 + Canonist (or Arbiter, depending on their hand) seems like an unwinnable board for them. Granted, that's not as fast as going turn 1 chalice for zero, but who runs MD chalices? Also, hate bears still beat for 2.
Control: The only thing I'm afraid of is Deed or EE. Any board with Mom + 8.5 is pretty much unassailable otherwise. Jace can't protect himself from Mom or 8.5, either. So CBtop decks, which mainly only run swords and spout for removal, are pretty easy. Landstill's really tough though.

Lorgalis

11-25-2010, 06:50 AM

@ Finn: I would like to know what are your toughts about the G splash. I have been advocating since long now, and I am intrigued about what the creator of the deck has to say about it. If you want my feedback on the g splash, just ask. Regarding the Vengevine matchup, well, I'd say it depends on your build and on their build:
- To me the UG version is easier than the GW, given that having Vial kinda annuls their counters. GW packs Mother, StP and (usually) Stoneforge Mystic, so it is significantly harder for us to win.
- If you play MD Arbiter and/or Canonist, the matchup should be very winnable. The G splash offers Pridemage, which also helps, as well as Goyf. I do agree that is difficult to win against their nutty hands. Postboard should be a cakewalk, as you'll have access to: Arbiter, Canonist, Pithing Needle...I don't see how we can lose that.

@all: Arbiter is a great card, but as it has been said, very meta dependant. If a significant portion of your meta doesn't use fetchs, i think it better stay on the side.

nwong

11-25-2010, 07:07 PM

I don't think postboard is a cakewalk, since they do have trygon predator if they're UG and qasali pridemage if they're GW.

Arbiter does help a lot though. Without arbiter, even postboard, it's still going to be tough.

Also, whilst shutting down UG is a bit easier than GW, Wonder is very very annoying.

Finn

11-27-2010, 06:27 PM

Lorgalis, I think the green splash changes quite a bit. I can see that it has its advantages and just about as many disadvantages. I think that it is asa it appears to be - a valid meta choice. If entering a tournament with D+T, it would be cool to have the cards for both on tap so that you can decide in much the same way you would go about switching out cards like Arbiter and Canonist.

Jackehehe

11-28-2010, 05:17 AM

I'm running a pretty standard GW DnT build:

// Lands
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [IN] Forest (3)
3 [A] Savannah
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
3 [LG] Karakas
3 [IA] Plains (3)
4 [MPR] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [UL] Mother of Runes
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [TSP] Serra Avenger
3 [TSP] Mangara of Corondor
4 [EVE] Flickerwisp

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
2 [4E] Sylvan Library

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [SHM] Wheel of Sun and Moon
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 [SHM] Runed Halo
SB: 2 [FNM] Wing Shards
SB: 1 [FNM] Aura of Silence

I'm pretty happy with how the deck is performing. As you can see, I'm running sylvan library and only 2 equipments which is a little odd perhaps. I am also not sure whether or not my mana base is stable enough. My main concern here though is my sideboard. 4 Enlightened tutor is definately overkill, I very seldomly use them anyway. Running 4 needles seems totally fine so I'll probably make a swap there. Apart from that, I'm wondering what common tools there are to deal with combo decks?

Any other tip would help greatly. My local meta is sprawling with tribal decks such as goblins and merfolks so I should be happy I guess and I'm slowly but surely getting a hang on how to play this deck. I am, however, not satisfied with my sideboard.

Penguinizer

11-28-2010, 04:24 PM

Today was the day of the Finnish Legacy Championship. It was rather strange. While there was a lot of Merfolk and Storm, the top 4 decks consisted of Bant Vengevine Survival, GW Death and Taxes, Death and Taxes and UGB oldschool control (Psychatog+quirion dryad).

I played a standard build with 4x MD Arbiter, but couldn't borrow wastelands so meh. I still took 3rd. Too lazy to write a proper report. So here's something:

Round 1: 2-1 against Storm. 1, lost. 2, Opponent deals with hatebears eventually and makes 8 tokens. I win through them. Game 3, he Ad nauseams and flips one of the cards he wished last game, gets game loss.

Round 2: 2-0 Aggro Loam. I deal with his threats and get an Avenger with/without sword to stick. Fairly simple.

Round 3: Eva Green. 2-1. I draw badly and lose due to that.

Round 4; Welder-reanimator thing. 2-1. I topdeck like a lucky bastard and win due to that.

Round 5: Ub Merfolk. 2-0. Opponent misplays round 1 due to no matchup knowledge. Beyond that, usual Merfolk game. Game 2 he has no creatures after removing two to FoWs for Mothers and Mystics.

Round 6: 2-1 Thoptersword. He doesn't know the matchup. Game 1 he gets fast countertop. Games 2-3 I win with fliers before he gets stuff online. He didn't really know what to do.

Round 7: Draw into top 8

Quarterfinals: vs. Storm. He gets bad hands and loses 2-0

Semis: Bant Survival. I misplay it like a moron and lose.

For third place: UGB control thing. I get good draws and win mainly due to them.