[Deck] Death and Taxes

[Penguinizer]

4 Dryads, 4 Togs, 4 Accumulated KNowledges, Serum Visions, 2 Pernicious Deeds, Smother, Duress, Brainstorm, Counterspell, FoW.

I'll get the decklist for it when it's posted.

[Lorgalis]

If you could post the GW list that made top8 it would be great...

[Penguinizer]

They haven't posted the T8 decklists yet. I'll get them up when they post them on their site.

[Hopo]

Semis: Bant Survival. I misplay it like a moron and lose.

That was actually UGw Vengevine madness. The guy had a regular madness shell with a splash for StP and Qasali Pridemage.
You got super lucky with the storm matchups, but that's how it goes in large tournaments.

[AggroSteve]

again wondering about that ubg control/list, i was thinking if the dryads were only used by that guy because he had no tarmogoyfs, or were they more efficient / bigger than goyfs?

what do you think @ penguinizer

[Penguinizer]

They were 2/2s for a turn or two. It took them a few turns to get to 5/5 size. However, if they did stick around, they ended up being 8/8s. It still wasn't as big of an immediate threat as goyf largely due to it taking a few turns to grow. I think they were replacements for Goyf.

He wasn't running Thoughtseize, and specifically said he just made the deck in a few hours on the previous day so I believe it was just cards he had laying around.

[mrjumbo03]

How were the mishra's factories for you? Did you have any game wherein you could have said that you'd want them over Rishadan Ports?

[Penguinizer]

It was my wallet speaking.

In the end, they tended to hold off smaller creatures or joining in on the final attack. I'd rather have had Ports and Wastelands, but I own neither at this time.

Also, I ended up trying a GW build on MWS. I didn't really care for it. I'll probably end up playing a MonoW build with 4x Maindeck Arbiter focusing more on mana denial with Wastelands, Ports and the Arbiter. Fish wasn't bad even with the Arbiters, it was still pretty easy. The additional manadenial and loss of tempo caused by Leonin Arbiter seems very useful.

[mrjumbo03]

http://deckcheck.org/?x=8QRflGWV2M4iF31hlGRfiaiaiaiabE

Another D&T deck doing good...actually it's a bad D&T deck haha but it reached 1st nonetheless...

Hmm but it only had 18 people so maybe it's not that big a deal...

[Tearnov]

Reading this, and thinking....why not splash red, if only for the sideboard? It could change a lot of match ups, especially against Landstill.
I didn't run vials for the pure cheap creatures i am running and the simple fact its just a constant beat down, hopefully.
This is still a work in progress

4x Icatian Javelineers
4x Mother of Runes
1x Savannah Lion
2x Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4x Silver Knight
4x Soltari Priest
4x Suntail Hawk
2x Stoneforge Mystic

4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sword of Body and Mind
2x Enlightened Tutor
1x Pithing Needle
1x Pariah
2x Seal of Cleansing

4x Wasteland
4x Plateau
4x Windswept Heath
10x Plains

//Sideboard

3x Blood Moon
4x Boil
2x Pariah
1x Pyrostatic Pillar
1x Enlightened Tutor
1x Serenity
3x Phyrexian Furnace

[lyracian]

http://deckcheck.org/?x=8QRflGWV2M4iF31hlGRfiaiaiaiabE

Another D&T deck doing good...actually it's a bad D&T deck haha but it reached 1st nonetheless...

Hmm but it only had 18 people so maybe it's not that big a deal...What makes you call it a bad D&T deck? It could have been tuned for a known meta.

[colo]

Doesn't seem as much tuned as it seems to follow a "spray and pray" philosophy to me ;) You either want 4 Mother of Runes, or you want none at all (the latter presumably only if your critter count is very, very low). You either want to have 4 Ethersworn Canonist, or you want none at all (depending on how you want the preboard matchups versus Enchantress and Storm Combo to look like). That list is just random imo.

[mrjumbo03]

What makes you call it a bad D&T deck? It could have been tuned for a known meta.

Hmm maybe it was my choice of words...maybe bad is the wrong word...but it cannot be denied that the deck is not optimal as said also by the above post...in addition to that, the lack of wastelands and rishadan ports as well...

[DalkonCledwin]

You either want to have 4 Ethersworn Canonist, or you want none at all

Wait... WUT????

While I agree the deck you are referencing is a bit random... why on earth do you need to be playing FOUR Ethersworn Canonist or none at all? That seems foolish to say the least.

My lists typically run 2 to 3, but NEVER run more than that and rarely run less. I find 3 to be the ideal number in a storm / enchantress heavy environment. Especially since this deck also wants to be running other outs to storm combo aside from just creatures (that also happen to be artifacts). Other outs that can include the following: Gaddock Teeg (in the GW variety of this deck), Runed Halo, and in some lists Chalice of the Void. Simply put there is enough variety to allow for this deck to not need to simply rely on one out to a hugely popular archetype such as storm to the extent where it needs to run 4 copies of the card. Especially when Storm can and does pack answers to Ethersworn Canonist in the form of Creature Removal and things like Hurkyl's Recall or Echoing Truth among other things. Even Enchantress can and does run answers to a resolved Ethersworn Canonist in the forms of Journey to Nowhere and Oblivion Ring.

[colo]

Went 4-1 yesterday at our local shop's weekly tournament, a short writeup of how it went can be found on MTGS: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=6115218#post6115218

[AggroSteve]

intresting list, how have the arbiters and mindcensors been for you?

[colo]

As I've tried to point out in the thread I've linked to (way down in the "Lessons Learned"-paragraph), both were incredibly good. I wouldn't go out on the streets without either of them in this meta of mine, as it stands of today. I think that Arbiter will stay a force to be reckoned with even after the expected banning of Survival of the Fittest. Mindcensor is also great, though hitting three mana consistently on turn three isn't that easy - it could be backbreaking in a mono-W staxx-like list however, I imagine.

If you think about it, stopping library search is probably one of the most powerful effects the game "learned" over the last few years, simply because so many "unfair" plays (Fetchlands, Natural Order, Entomb, other Tutors, ...) that D&T, either by choice or by nature, doesn't abuse, require your opponent to do just that. Arbiter is a very welcome grain of sand in so many engines that forces a great many decks to play "fair" again - rely on ordinary draw, with a little manipulation by means of Brainstorm and the like. And if you (have to) play fair against D&T, you'll have a hard time winning, as this deck's resiliency and power can be astonishing - esp. for the unprepared.

[Fatal]

Hi,

I want to introduce mine Loamed GW D&T.

Its middle Aggro control with prison option.

Here's the list:

Artifacts:
4 AEther Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Creatures:
3 Mangara of Corondor
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Flickerwisp
4 Leonin Arbiter
2 Aven Mindcensor
3 Qasali Pridemage

Enchantments:
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Ghostly Prison

Sorcery:
2 Life from the Loam

Instants:
1 Enlightened Tutor
4 Swords to Plowshares

Lands:
4 Savannah
4 Temple Garden
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Wasteland
2 Forest
1 Plains
2 Ghost Quarter
3 Karakas
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

SB(mostly focused on strom/burn/gobs/zoo):
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Absolute Law
2 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Choke

-----------------------------

Comments on cards chosen:

I focused mostly on mana suppression, while keeping aggro from vial. Most of decks actually (even merfolks and gobs) uses fetches and splash colors thx to SotF dominance.

We have virtual 6 wastelands (4 wastelands + 2 ghost quarter)
6 Search suppressors (4 Leonin arbiters + 2 Aven mindcensor)
9 removal (4 StP, 3 Mangara and 2 oblivion rings)

Mini toolbox for Enlightened Tutor (Prison for hard aggro decks, Jitte for simular decks, uniwersal removal - O-ring and sometimes we goes for Vial in control MU for example).

Life from the Loam fits here perfect in our game plan, with Knight of Reliquary is like armaggedon (we can take down even basics with quarter).

Qasali Pridemage are very universal and with Exalted are quite nice beater.

As u looked on list i don't use fetchlands - to avoid sell-prison while arbiter is on table. After second land drop Knights of Reliquary can easy search wastelands/ghost quarter's

After 4 Weeks of testing MU %:

Merfolks - amost Bye without removal with Vial on table its gg, every creature is a thread for him evansion is also a problem for him, with Flickers reseting his vial. 70% after sideboard (Perish/hibernation) its about 60% - Choke for the win.

Goblins Rb - Lackey is an issue without StP in hand it can be problematic, but Tabernacle/Ghostly Prison/Umezawa's Jitte resolve all our problems. about 55-60% preboard/about 60 after (absolute law helps a lot)

Survival decks - on paper this deck is total hate for them, but while playing i think its about 50% even after board, that was disappoint, main reason building this deck was to punish SotF search engine..

ANT/Belcher/TES - Pre board its about 40% our worst MU. After board its about 60% is quite nice Leyline/hatebears help a lot, also with Search suppression/Mana suppression we have quite lot time to beat combo driver.

Threshold U/g/b - Stifle is an issue quite often, but its quite tide MU 50% after board Choke can be very handful.

Burn - next bad MU preboard very easy after.. 40%/70% after

Lands.dec - quite Favorable depends on build about 60%/65% after

Alluren - almost bye, alluren in play can help us more than opponent, his search engines arent great while suppressed by arbiter/censor 70%/70%

Landstill - Favorable 60% / 65% after board (Vials helps a lot)

Sneak Show - Favorable (3 Karakas do the job) 65%/65 % after

Pox - Favorable 65%/70% Loam helps keeping mana on table, most time i was main LD plan :]

Zoo - Flickers help a lot but its still unfavorable 45%/60% after

Conclusion deck is solid, best MU while playing vs non-combo middle range aggro/control specially multicolor mana base.

Any more suggestions ?

[Lorgalis]

Well, that is an intersting new deck, but...does it improve any unfavorable matchups for DnT without giving up already favourable matchups? I don't thinkso.

Why play this instead of Aggro Loam? :wink:

[Fatal]

Its more universal with 5 Pernament removal (2 O-rings, 3 Mangaras), also it has batter MU than Aggro loam vs Blue based Control. Also mana base is sometimes tricky (mostly opponent thought your playing SotF :) )

With Qasali Pridemages Burn acceptable MU Postboard, also Zoo isnt so scarry with 6 Wastelands.

[LegacyDan]

Went 4-1 yesterday at our local shop's weekly tournament, a short writeup of how it went can be found on MTGS: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=6115218#post6115218

I like your list, it seems well tuned for your Meta. D+T is gettin more recognition nowadays it seems.

I do have a problem though, I seem to be drawing WAY more Karakas than I would like to. I mean, I am still goin x-1 at tourneys, but it seems like I should be goin x-0 instead. Anyone have some wisdom in this area?

[colo]

Karakas-flood is a problem occasionally (I had one in play and two in hand when I lost my last game on wednesday), but you've gotta live with that, I suppose. It usually is Wasteland-bait number one (at least if you opp knows what he's doing, or you're not crushing his back with a Rishadan Port he needs to get rid off even more desperately), so I'm usually not that unhappy when I draw two of them. I think it's important to balance the number of copies of both Karakas and Mangara - if you're not running one as a four-of, the other probably isn't worth being run as a four-of, either. I'm a long-term advocate of the full Mangara playset, and I think it pays off playing both cards as many times as you're allowed to - if only for the fact that seeing either of them usually makes opponents cringe, for one of the combo pieces that will chew away on their way to victory is in place and waiting... :)

[Penguinizer]

Just how should I be siding against Vengevine Survival? I know siding in canonists can be a method of slowing them down. MD Arbiters also help. Jötun Grunt was basically useless, should I have sided them out and had Crypt's instead?

My hategear looked like this for game 2: 3x Jötun Grunt, 3x Ethersworn Canonist, 4x Leonin Arbiter with the usual permanent removal for the mono-W build.

SB is:
3x Crypt
3x Canonist
3x Wing Shards
3x Kitchen Finks/random "Well, what else do I have anyways" slot.
2x Cataclysm
1x Jötun Grunt (2x main deck).

I really can't think of how to improve the matchup. The only thing I had success with was sticking a jitte and removing/killing Quirion Ranger/birds/hierarch and taking out his mana.

[Osmin]

Canonist is useless. While comboing off their first spell is Rootwala and second is zero-mana ARTIFACT creature.

[Penguinizer]

Yeah, that's something that I didn't remember when siding. Anyways, would 3x SB Wispmare be worth running?

[mrjumbo03]

Thoughts on the new spoiled card for Mirrodin Beseiged for this deck?

Mirran Crusader 1WW

Double Strike, Pro Black and Green

2/2

[Maëlig]

I think it could easily replace flickerwisp. Much better threat all around.

[1maarten1]

Thoughts on the new spoiled card for Mirrodin Beseiged for this deck?

Mirran Crusader 1WW

Double Strike, Pro Black and Green

2/2

Thats sick! Dont think it can replace flickerwisp, since flickerwisp is very important for the tricks the deck can pull. But it can certainly replace jotun grunt I think!

[Joe_C]

I can't see a creature that just gets in for damage replacing either flickerwisp or grunt. Grunt is just too good to not run. Sure there are times when he lives for just a turn or two, but late game he holds down the ground and shrinks goyf, kotr, and recycles equipment to find with mystic.

[Finn]

Gosh, they sure have upped the bar on power for this type of critter. Since the deck is capable of fielding a Jitte often, this card just might have a spot. Double strike and Jitte are good friends. But not in the Flickerwisp spot. It is always tough to find a spot, especially with such a high cmc guy like this.

[1maarten1]

I can't see a creature that just gets in for damage replacing either flickerwisp or grunt. Grunt is just too good to not run. Sure there are times when he lives for just a turn or two, but late game he holds down the ground and shrinks goyf, kotr, and recycles equipment to find with mystic.

Well shrinking is nice i agree, but since this guy is protection from green he just chumps those anyway, and helps you to easily get through.

[Fatal]

Today i made Top4 with this list:

Artifacts:
4 AEther Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Creatures:
3 Mangara of Corondor
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Flickerwisp
4 Leonin Arbiter
2 Aven Mindcensor
3 Qasali Pridemage

Enchantments:
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Ghostly Prison

Sorcery:
2 Life from the Loam

Instants:
1 Enlightened Tutor
4 Swords to Plowshares

Lands:
4 Savannah
4 Temple Garden
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Wasteland
2 Forest
1 Plains
2 Ghost Quarter
3 Karakas
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

SB(mostly focused on strom/burn/gobs/zoo):
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Absolute Law
2 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Choke

5 Rounds + Top4.

1 Round G1 (Ub Merfolks)
I win the roll. Its quite easy MU preside, I opened with Ghost Quarter -> Vial (FoWed), he played Island -> Cursecatcher. Then i add Forest and massive Tarmogoyfs + Filckerwisp on his blockers in next turn 2-4. Without removal he couldn't survive. After bloking with 2 lords i StP one of them, all table in his side goes of, gg.

Side in Umezawa's Jitte, Choke, side out -> Enlightened Tutor, Life from the Loam

G2 he opened with Island->go, i keep risky hand with Horizon Canopy (only 1 land) and 2 Vials. I started Horizon Canopy -> Vial and met Spell Pierce. He played Wasteland (then screw up - I thought), but instead of Waste'ing he played Silvergill to draw (showing Lord of Atlantis). I topdeck Plains (good one) and played Arbiter. Next turn my opp played next Silvergill and miss land drop. I topdeck wasteland) and destroy his Island with quarter. Next round he waste my Canopy, after some punch from 2 Silvergills next rounds i topdeck more lands and had Goyf and Knight of Reliquary 3/3 on table (gravehate). He had Lord of Atlantis, Merow Reejerey and Cursecacher. We both was at few life's. He had to attack with all to take of all. After all i topdeck Tarmogoyf and game ends. 2-0.

1-0

2 Round was Lands/Scapeshift

Game 1: I lose the roll and he started with exploration, Fetch->Taiga Rishadan Port. I opened with Vial. This game was very long (mostly thx to stalling lands players who's know game one is his best chance to win). After some maze's of ith on table. I try to played agressivly with Goyfs/Knight of Reliquary (i had 2 on table) using then as backup plan for mazes (wasteland).Mangara was very nice here to remove Mazes from the game. He topdeck Scapeshift and win with 2 life left. (Sad).

Side in: Tormod's Crypt, Bojuka Bog,4 Leyline of Sanctity, Pithing Needle, 3 Gaddock Teeg, Absolute Law
Side out: 4 StP, Ghostly Prison, Tabernacle, 3 Flickerwisp, Umezawa's Jitte, Mangara of Corondor.

Game 2: We had only 8 minutes left to termination, i played aggressively but couldn't fight 2 Mazes and Zuran orb even after remove'ing graveyard away (with 1 Maze and and Laom), didn't have Gaddock Teeg on table. He scapeshift for little i had leathal dmg on table to take off it. Next draw Absolute law... termination come and draw. 1-0-1
1-1

3 Round was Dredge
Game 1: I know dredge very well played it for a while. I opened very good hand with Tabernacle, StP, Goyf wasteland and Savannah. I played Savannah and pass the turn, opp played Gemstone and Imp. In this moment i recognize that i made mistake (should play wasteland but who knows that i was dredge). I played wasteland -> waste his gemstone and pass with opened Savannah for StP. He discard Troll, dredge for six (next troll, iona, bridge, Ichorid, some trash for Ichorid and amoeba), then he played a Cephalid Coloseaum and... (i was worried about Breakthrough) but he just pass after attack. I played Tabernacle and pass the turn, he put up ichorid (Sworded) dredge for more fuel next moeba in play (only one Bridge). After topdecking Loam i was safe wasted his last land and played Goyf(5/6). Few rounds later was gg.

Side in: Pithing Needle, Tormod's Crypt, Bojuka Bog
Side out: 2 Aven Mindcensor, 1 arbiter

Game 2: Was similar but with Tormod's Crypt on table and Tabernacle on open. Wasted/Quartered to death. After playing i was talking with him to optimize his sideboard plan - that was his first try with dredge. I couldn't find answer for tabernacle. Also wrong sideboarded - he take off Flame-Kin Zelot..

2-1

4 Round German Loam (Moxes, Exploration with Knight of the Reliquary beater)

Game 1: Don't remember it good, but massive aggro with goyfs/arbiters with mana disrupt (wasteland to Maze) enough he didn't find loam (had intuition) but never had 5 mana on table.

Side in: Pithing Needle, Tormod's Crypt, Bojuka Bog.
Side out: Tabernacle, Ghostly Prison, Fickerwisp

Game 2: Was his, no vial mull to 5 eated to death by Wastelands from Loam and Rishadan Ports.

Game 3: I made good tempo with Arbiters/Goyfs(1/2 lol) from vial with Crypt on table. I was suprised by his sideboard with Terferi's Response. But he still couldn't survive tempo. His last hope was more maze's and Glacial Chasm, I used 3 Mangaras without Karakas to break his plans and wins. 2-1

3-1

5 Round GW Survival (with Iona/Retrainer)

Game 1: Was clasical porno from Survival. He win the roll (Fetch->Forest->Hierarch). (No StP in hand) second was Survival and pass. Arbiter on table (StP).. 3rd turn i had 3 Vengevine rushing.. in 2 rounds (with another StP for blocker).

Side in: Tormod's Crypt, Bojuka Bog, Pithing Needle
Side out: 2 Life from the loam, Ghostly Prison (this card is bad vs survival GW with pride mages).

Game 2: Was asymmetrical to first, he had flood (after game i ask him about number of lands 23 is too much imo) i Sworded his bop, and blow up Survival with Qasali (locked for a while with Arbiter). After 2 Goyfs and Knight with Mangara backup he pass.

Game 3: Wasn't funny. He started with Savannah Bop i StP from Canopy, he wasted it and pass. I wasted Savannah and Vial. He miss his next land drop. Arbiter he topdeck fetch. Then eated to death by mine Loam + waste under Arbiter with Goyfs. 2-1

4-1.

Semi-finals

Round 6 Next Survival, this time Gb thought it will be Ooze..

Game 1: Was total punish to Survival. I win the flip and opened with Vial. After take off BoP and waste Bayou game was almost mine. I put arbiter from vial and qartered forest. Then Goyf/Goyf/and 2 Flickers at beginning. That was fast.. Opponent was impressed.

Side in: Tormod's Crypt, Bojuka Bog, Pithing Needle
Side out: 2 Life from the loam, Ghostly Prison (this card is bad - to costy vs survival GW with pride mage).

Game 2: Bayou-> Thoughseize take down Arbiter.(he was good scouting when i beat Survival round before). I ansewered with wasteland -> Bayou. Next turn, Fetch -> Cabal therapy take off both StP. Mine Karakas pass. He put on survival on table after droping forest and that mean mostly gg. I found Goyf on topdeck and pass. He put next land and had 3 mana. He discard Vengevine, goes for Birds and discard Fauna shaman and goes for Quirion Ranger. I didn't topdeck any thing to take of Survival and survive alfa strike from Vengevines with Shriekmaw's backup and Game 3 started. I saw Prgenitus while discarding.

I decided to didn't put Gaddock Teeg vs Orders. Maybe that was wrong.

Game 3: Was similar to Game 2 with he take off mine Arbiter with StP than, 2 BoPs then Natural Order next round to Progenitus. Couldn't do anything (poor hand after mull to 6 with 2 vials).

Bad luck with sideboard, didn't met any Storm/Burn

Comments please

[Penguinizer]

Gosh, they sure have upped the bar on power for this type of critter. Since the deck is capable of fielding a Jitte often, this card just might have a spot. Double strike and Jitte are good friends. But not in the Flickerwisp spot. It is always tough to find a spot, especially with such a high cmc guy like this.

I'd probably stick him in my empty 3x slot in the SB instead of Finks. He handles some aggro matchups better. I really can't find a way to fit it in otherwise.

[LegacyDan]

Thoughts on the new spoiled card for Mirrodin Beseiged for this deck?

Mirran Crusader 1WW

Double Strike, Pro Black and Green

2/2

Link to the card please. If this is real, then that would just be awsome.

[supachai]

http://yfrog.com/gz9q1zj
It's on Salvation's official spoiler. I'd trust it.
Ah, also posted here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19491-%5BSPOILERS%5D-Mirrodin-Besieged-the-first-stronk-card-are-out%21

edit: It's powerful, no doubt. Unfortunately, unlike Grunt, it only has 2 toughness and Zoo can easily burn it out when we try to equip. Sure if we slap a sword or jitte on this its an unstoppable beast but without Mother of Runes also in play it could be difficult. Now I'm really excited for the red/white sword because that basically gives this protection from all relevant colors.

[Penguinizer]

I wonder how high the prices will get on those. IE: Buy on release or risk on waiting it out?

[Maëlig]

I wonder how high the prices will get on those. IE: Buy on release or risk on waiting it out?

It is likely to see a reasonable amount of play in standard and extended, so I see the prices rising up quickly on this one.

[Penguinizer]

I got screwed on prices for Arbiter due to expecting that. I still have 60 euros of store credit from the tourney so I guess that's where that's going 4 of them, 3 for the deck and one to sit around.

[mrjumbo03]

I wonder how high the prices will get on those. IE: Buy on release or risk on waiting it out?

I read an article that said that you can pretty much expect rares to taper off at 7-10$ ever since they printed mythics...he had a whole list of cards to back up his claim...damn i can't find the article...

As for the crusader, what about removing Orings? i found them to be the weakest cards in the deck...

[from Cairo]

I read an article that said that you can pretty much expect rares to taper off at 7-10$ ever since they printed mythics...he had a whole list of cards to back up his claim...damn i can't find the article...

As for the crusader, what about removing Orings? i found them to be the weakest cards in the deck...

I think both of these are on point.

I'd agree it's probably safe to assume they won't exceed $10, or not by very much. Examples of post-Mythic rares: Noble Hierarch, Knight of the Reliquary, Ratchet Bomb, Fauna Shaman, Stoneforge Mystic, Zen Fetches, etc etc... most of the competative rares have topped at $15 when they're featured in a Flavor of the Month list or are being used in a bunch of formats, and can be found as low as $5-7 when they're less popular.

I'd definitely test a couple of these in the O-Ring slot of Mono-White lists. I don't like the idea of boosting the deck's curve and O-Ring is significantly weaker than Mangara or Flickerwisp. The meta may shift some though with Dec 20th, kind of hard to envision a post-Mirrodin Besieged list without knowing if Survival will still be legal in the format.

[Penguinizer]

Hmm, the extra 3 removal spells is nice and you can use it to get rid of Jaces and so on. Anyways, I'll try it out in that slot. Seems like as good an idea as any.

[LegacyDan]

The crusader does appear to be deadly with a SoFaI or Jitte on it....

EDIT: I am a little worried since the Crusaders have the same Protections that the missing Swords would have. I hope WotC didn't make these guys to replace the last two Equipments in the set.

[Lorgalis]

The crusader could be the new beater. If you don't specially need Jotun Grunt in your meta, I'd swap them.

However, this will need testing...

[Penguinizer]

I'm just going to test it in place of O-Ring and will move them into the SB for matchups where you need general non-creature removal. I'm interested in how it'll turn out.

[overseer1234]

Honnestly I would just totally revise the deck.

I mean without the combat tricks with damage on the stack, the all the tricks we have are:
vial @3 + flickerwhisp for shinanigans, and sometimes stonecloaker (and if you play it resetting jotun grunt)
and karrakas + mangara (+ flickerwhisp/stonecloaker)

This might sound stupid, but maybe we should try the weeny+equipment approach (max out on stoneforge mystic's, ad some things that like equipment, maybe geddon and cataclysm...)

Just throwing it out there, but if you ask me, this deck is becoming less and less taxing and more and more dead...

[colo]

Honnestly I would just totally revise the deck.

Yeah, esp. because it's working so well!

In German, we call this "verschlimmbessern". Now I'm perfectly aware that most of you won't be able to decipher what that means, but that's OK, as long as you're not doing it! ;) Don't fix what ain't broken.

[Valrina]

Yeah, esp. because it's working so well!

In German, we call this "verschlimmbessern". Now I'm perfectly aware that most of you won't be able to decipher what that means, but that's OK, as long as you're not doing it! ;) Don't fix what ain't broken.

While you are right about, dont touch a running system...

His point is valid besides the totally revise the deck...because he didnt really suggest that ^^

The deck is already pretty equipment heavy, playing the full set of stoneforges isnt uncommon anymore and jeah...it is a good idea because the card is broken and with vial it allows to play nearly every card in your deck uncounterable...which is sick.

On the other hand...never drop Flickerwisp for it ...best card in the deck atm if you ask me.

[colo]

I'm running Stoneforge Mystic as a 4-of in D&T since the card was printed, simply because it's bonkers-good. It also provides the card advantage that the archetype has been craving for as long as it had existed, although in a somewhat limited (yet definitely relevant) form. The problem with further development of the deck, imho, is not what to include, but what to take out for it. 2/2 double strike and double protection for 3 of course is crazy, but I don't see what to cut. None of the critters that are agreed basically upon to be in the deck are to be questioned imho, and I'm having a hard time envisioning Mirran Crusader outright replacing anything.

What I'd really like to see is the Sword of Something and Something Else cycle completed. Protection from white and from red (I'd also be happy to see this on a decent critter that we can stick into D&T) would really up the deck's power level in my opinion.

[Lorgalis]

Well, protection from white and from red would make our matchup against zoo much more favorable. mmmmmm...putting that hypothetical sword on the mirran crusader would be pretty neat.

As for what to take out for the crusader...well. My first guess (without any test) is that we can cut an Avenger and a Grunt. Those two are the beaters, and Crusader is a beater. I might be wrong, but I don't think that you would like to see more than 1 on the opening 7, so as 2-of (at least for the moment) seems perfect.

[Curby]

The problem with further development of the deck, imho, is not what to include, but what to take out for it.

Once you have a smoothly functioning deck, this is ALWAYS the problem. See sig.

@Lorgalis, I like that idea. Avenger's got Flying, but Crusader has evasion too. Avenger's got Vigilance, but Double Strike works even better with the equipment.

Likewise, Grunt may be seen as less and less important to have huge numbers of with Survival allegedly on its last legs, with Reanimator nerfed by Mystic Tutor, etc. There's still Zoo as a major player that likes big yards, and land/loam decks. The continued importance of Grunt depends on how the meta pans out in the new year.

The one problem to be aware of is cutting 2-drops for 3-drops. Yes we want the Vial to end up at 3, but we need to stay alive on the trip there, and sometimes you want to or need to hardcast a critter. That said, I wouldn't cut Flickerwisp to less than 4, or Mangara to less than 3. Avenger, ORing, and Grunt do seem like the best bets.

[Lorgalis]

Well, I don't play with O-Ring, so I can't cut that. :p

While it is indeed a good card, I don't see the Crusader being more than a 2-of. But time and testing will tell...

[android]

I think the only two creatures that I would look to replace with the new crusader would be the two main beaters (Avenger & Grunt) but first lets look at what is gained/lost. Keep in mind the synergies with the rest of the deck.

Avenger:
flying
2cc

Grunt:
graveyard
2cc
4 power

Crusader:
doublestrike
evasion
3cc

with Jitte -> Crusader is way better - 8 damage first attack, 16 damage second attack!
with any sword -> Crusader is way better - 8 damage per attack plus twice the triggers

So if we are already going the Mystics route, I'm sad to say that maybe Avenger is out of the list at this point. It's not relevant enough to be SB material and if it doesn't win nearly as fast, I'd say get rid of it.

[Joe_C]

Crusader seems really good. If you have equipment. He still gets removed easily enough with burn, or stp. If I were to run him, I wouldn't be taking out grunt, or avenger. I would drop some of the arbiters I have in the main for him, and I wouldn't run 4.

[Curby]

What would your list end up looking like? You probably got rid of the Harriers/Forge Tenders for Arbiter, and you're replacing Arbiters with Crusaders. Wouldn't the result start to look a little expensive in terms of mana investment? Perhaps you made other changes and didn't end up with such a top-heavy result. I'm just curious. =)

[android]

Well, that's kind of the problem with replacing 2 drops with 3 drops (let alone 1 drops with 3 drops). Already, the first 3-4 turns are pretty dicey for this deck. I might look at front loading 1-2 drops with removal and control elements rather than dudes. Maybe your dude curve begins at 2 with Mystic and Grunt (this guys is so relevant in so many matchups). I know the tendency is to have some of these protection guys (and tappers in some cases) as MD but I really disagree with that. If you're playing vs anything that is not red or only uses red as acceleration or wishes, you basically have an overcosted vanilla.

I might just have my 1-drops as Swords, Vial & Mana Tithe and 2-drops as Grunt, Jitte, Mystic. I don't know, Tithe is kind of spotty but it has been amazing early game. Late game it's hit or miss but by that point, you want to win with your beater.

[mrjumbo03]

Well, that's kind of the problem with replacing 2 drops with 3 drops (let alone 1 drops with 3 drops). Already, the first 3-4 turns are pretty dicey for this deck. I might look at front loading 1-2 drops with removal and control elements rather than dudes. Maybe your dude curve begins at 2 with Mystic and Grunt (this guys is so relevant in so many matchups). I know the tendency is to have some of these protection guys (and tappers in some cases) as MD but I really disagree with that. If you're playing vs anything that is not red or only uses red as acceleration or wishes, you basically have an overcosted vanilla.

I might just have my 1-drops as Swords, Vial & Mana Tithe and 2-drops as Grunt, Jitte, Mystic. I don't know, Tithe is kind of spotty but it has been amazing early game. Late game it's hit or miss but by that point, you want to win with your beater.

No mother of runes?

Edit: Sorry didn't see that you didn't want protection guys...haha but still mother is so full of win...it holds off attackers and provides protection plus vial @ 1 does something...

[android]

No, I do agree that Mother is really good but you have to look at when she becomes relevant.

The guy you want to protect ideally is vialed in turn 4 (attacking turn 5). Now, I guess you can have her sitting around chumping as early as turn 2 (if you missed your vial drop) or 3. I would argue that Mother should never warrant more than a couple spots MD.

I know this deck archetype allows for a variety of play-styles so it's hard for me to say what would be good for one list over another without seeing how you want to win and how you intend to get there.

Biggest problem facing this deck is surviving long enough to win. Then it's not an instant win so you need to push it through. Traditionally that meant controlling the mid game. Most of the utility that prevents an auto-loss to decks like combo, come in from the SB. The deck has a great game vs. anything using the graveyard and post SB does pretty well vs. red decks.

[colo]

Another tournament today, went 2-1 versus Elves Combo and two times GUw Survival, see http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=6135849&postcount=2944 for details. Arbiter once again proves its worth.

I was one of the first (if not the first) players to permanently adapt Mother of Runes into my list back many, many moons ago, and I think it's agreed-upon that she's one of the best, if not the best, critter one-drop available for the archetype. She's a creature that must be answered by pretty much anything but combo (and she can also get those decks into trouble, given the right partner in crime), or will provide lots of virtual card advantage. Everyone running D&T without a full playset of her really is missing an important building block of the deck.

[LegacyDan]

I was one of the first (if not the first) players to permanently adapt Mother of Runes into my list back many, many moons ago, and I think it's agreed-upon that she's one of the best, if not the best, critter one-drop available for the archetype. She's a creature that must be answered by pretty much anything but combo (and she can also get those decks into trouble, given the right partner in crime), or will provide lots of virtual card advantage. Everyone running D&T without a full playset of her really is missing an important building block of the deck.

Wow, NO. I can agree that Mom is a strong card. BUT like most decks there are more controlling versions and more aggro ones. I myself am running a very aggro D+T list, Moms only slow it down. In my meta I need to punch out more damage as quickly as possible, control their mana, and get the attackers through. Without Moms, I have been going x-1 and x-0 in my local. Had I been using here, I would not be making moneys on a weekly basis.

On to Mirran Crusader. The dude has potential, that much is sure. If your deck can support running O-Ring in the SB, then he might be able to replace it. I will say this, Doublestrike is something I keep my eye on, and after using Kor Duelist to some success I look forward to trying out Crusader.

[Finn]

Hi guys. Before you all go switching out Avengers and Grunts for these new Crusaders, ask yourself how often find yourself attacking with an equipped creature and not winning. If I am at that stage in the game, I have it pretty well wrapped up even if I am sending in Mother of Runes with a weapon in her hands. The extra damage is Timmy win-more. The protection from green is the most important part of that equation imo. Any discussion on swapping cards should have that feature as this creature's primary focus.

Here's my perceived problem with the Crusader: It dies to a lightning bolt and it is too slow to stop 3 V.Vs on turn 3. So where is the time to need it most?

[mrjumbo03]

Hi guys. Before you all go switching out Avengers and Grunts for these new Crusaders, ask yourself how often find yourself attacking with an equipped creature and not winning. If I am at that stage in the game, I have it pretty well wrapped up even if I am sending in Mother of Runes with a weapon in her hands. The extra damage is Timmy win-more. The protection from green is the most important part of that equation imo. Any discussion on swapping cards should have that feature as this creature's primary focus.

Here's my perceived problem with the Crusader: It dies to a lightning bolt and it is too slow to stop 3 V.Vs on turn 3. So where is the time to need it most?

Hopefully Vengevines won't be part of the equation by then hahaha 4 more days to go!:)

[Sims]

Hopefully Vengevines won't be part of the equation by then hahaha 4 more days to go!:)

But you can't rely on this. I agree with Finn here.. Grunts and Avengers are amazing for what they are, but one of the biggest reasons they're as good as they are is the casting cost. By the time you hit the mana to play a 3cc dude and start swinging with a sword in his hand, you could be winning with carrier pigeon at that point. The card is great, I like it a lot, but i think it might be just 1 mana too expensive, especially to be taking over the slot of grunt or avenger. If you're going to cram it in, i'd be looking elsewhere, and really looking at what matchups you think that it's actually going to be helpful for you. Is it going to be anything for you other than an evasive beater? Doesn't Avenger do that already for cheaper?

[android]

I think the point I was trying to make is it wins in 2 turns with either Jitte or SoFI. Even if it comes into play a turn later than Grunt or Avenger, I'm looking at it's superiority with equipment. For example, if you equip it with SoFI, you've got a virtually indestructible beater that does 8 combat damage plus 4 direct damage plus draws 2 cards. That so ridiculously superior to Avengers 5 damage - draw a card and pro blue/red flying.

Without equipment, Avenger wins in 7 turns, Crusader/Grunt in 5 (obviously way easier with Crusader). Typically, without blink tricks, grunt sticks around for maybe 3 turns of combat.

This deck can protect it's creatures with blink abilities but it by no means has the same level of protection that say Threshold had. If we were playing aggro in a control shell, I would be supportive of the "play a low cc dude and protect him as he goes all the way".

Personally, I still want to play this deck where I just get my superior shit on the table and then Cataclysm. I would much rather have Crusader + good equipment + Plains(flagstones) & Wasteland + Oblivion Ring after the Cat than any other dude (even probably Mangara + Karakas). I want to win, not dance around with my opponent. I hate losing games with this deck when I think I've broken parity and my opponent rebuilds because my 3/3 flyer can't get the job done in time.

I think the current iteration of the deck is trying to do the mana denial plan, cheat a cheap dude into play and then gradually win. Compare that to Goblins which start almost exactly the same - mana denial, cheat a dude into play but then TOTALLY DOMINATE. Do you see the difference there? Why are we even trying to segue from fast start into control finish? Seem like that's what keeps this deck Tier II. No explosive finish.

[LegacyDan]

Cataclysm? That card has been used, set aside, used some more, and put on a shelf.

[android]

It works fine if your strategy abuses it. Obviously against some decks it does virtually nothing. Right now that happens to be Survival decks so I'm not surprised it's on the shelf.

[Penguinizer]

I tend to keep it around for Lands and Landstill. I don't really have anything else for the 2 random extra slots anyways.

[AggroSteve]

it helps enchantress as well, and hell yeah it helps a lot there

but,... cataclysm is imo now more a sideboard-card than a maindeck-card, because the deck itself followed a different direction .... equipment, but actually i can see 2 different directions of development, heavy mana denial with arbiter, maybe even cataclysm/armageddon main, and the lets say more traditional route with stoneforge mystics and equipment

[eq.firemind]

Before swapping Grunt or Avenger for Crusader, think about creature curve. You REALLY want to put something into play when Vial has 2 counters. Also, ProGreen is good and so on, but Grunt actually deals with Tarmogoyf and Knight of the Reliquary AND Wild Nacatl, so I don't see that much benefits from Crusader. Finaly, another double white cost is clearly not what this deck wants.

[Lorgalis]

Wow, NO. I can agree that Mom is a strong card. BUT like most decks there are more controlling versions and more aggro ones. I myself am running a very aggro D+T list, Moms only slows it down. In my meta I need to punch out more damage as quickly as possible, control their mana, and get the attackers through. Without Moms, I have been going x-1 and x-0 in my local. Had I been using here, I would not be making moneys on a weekly basis.

Contradiction? Anyways, i'm interested what other 1-drop replaces mom in you aggro-geared version.

As for the Crusader, my take is that testing will tell. I can see it being a 2-of mainboard maximum. It seems pretty neat sideboard material though. Let's first test and the discuss...not the other way around. ;)

[Penguinizer]

Testing is the best way to decide. I agree fully with that.

[android]

Here's my perceived problem with the Crusader: It dies to a lightning bolt and it is too slow to stop 3 V.Vs on turn 3. So where is the time to need it most?

So that's a great argument against dropping Grunt but really says nothing about Avenger. Avenger dies to bolt, dies blocking 1 VV if it's lucky enough to come down T3. Look, I love Avenger but without lifelink or pro-anything, I'm not sure the flying bit matters. It only races if you're playing vs a slow deck. If you haven't stopped the onslaught, a T3 Avenger with summoning sickness is not really much of a threat. Now if you happened to make your curve and you're putting Isamaru (I know he's not in any list now - but I'm speaking hypothetically) into play T2, Grunt T3 and Avenger T4 and you happen to Swords one of their dudes and O-ring another then blow the board, you might actually be able to pull out of your predicament.

I mean, understand what I want to do with this deck is not to put incremental pressure. I want to trade early and often and then play something I can win the game with. Ideally, that would be done by dropping Vial -> Swords and/or Wasteland -> equipment or Mystic -> the guy who's going to win the game for me -> Blow everything up. Obviously, I've played enough magic to know that never happens but it's were I start when trying to build my deck.

[Octopusman]

Today i made Top4 with this list:

Artifacts:
4 AEther Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Creatures:
3 Mangara of Corondor
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Flickerwisp
4 Leonin Arbiter
2 Aven Mindcensor
3 Qasali Pridemage

Enchantments:
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Ghostly Prison

Sorcery:
2 Life from the Loam

Instants:
1 Enlightened Tutor
4 Swords to Plowshares

Lands:
4 Savannah
4 Temple Garden
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Wasteland
2 Forest
1 Plains
2 Ghost Quarter
3 Karakas
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

SB(mostly focused on strom/burn/gobs/zoo):
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Absolute Law
2 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Choke

5 Rounds + Top4.

1 Round G1 (Ub Merfolks)
I win the roll. Its quite easy MU preside, I opened with Ghost Quarter -> Vial (FoWed), he played Island -> Cursecatcher. Then i add Forest and massive Tarmogoyfs + Filckerwisp on his blockers in next turn 2-4. Without removal he couldn't survive. After bloking with 2 lords i StP one of them, all table in his side goes of, gg.

Side in Umezawa's Jitte, Choke, side out -> Enlightened Tutor, Life from the Loam

G2 he opened with Island->go, i keep risky hand with Horizon Canopy (only 1 land) and 2 Vials. I started Horizon Canopy -> Vial and met Spell Pierce. He played Wasteland (then screw up - I thought), but instead of Waste'ing he played Silvergill to draw (showing Lord of Atlantis). I topdeck Plains (good one) and played Arbiter. Next turn my opp played next Silvergill and miss land drop. I topdeck wasteland) and destroy his Island with quarter. Next round he waste my Canopy, after some punch from 2 Silvergills next rounds i topdeck more lands and had Goyf and Knight of Reliquary 3/3 on table (gravehate). He had Lord of Atlantis, Merow Reejerey and Cursecacher. We both was at few life's. He had to attack with all to take of all. After all i topdeck Tarmogoyf and game ends. 2-0.

1-0

2 Round was Lands/Scapeshift

Game 1: I lose the roll and he started with exploration, Fetch->Taiga Rishadan Port. I opened with Vial. This game was very long (mostly thx to stalling lands players who's know game one is his best chance to win). After some maze's of ith on table. I try to played agressivly with Goyfs/Knight of Reliquary (i had 2 on table) using then as backup plan for mazes (wasteland).Mangara was very nice here to remove Mazes from the game. He topdeck Scapeshift and win with 2 life left. (Sad).

Side in: Tormod's Crypt, Bojuka Bog,4 Leyline of Sanctity, Pithing Needle, 3 Gaddock Teeg, Absolute Law
Side out: 4 StP, Ghostly Prison, Tabernacle, 3 Flickerwisp, Umezawa's Jitte, Mangara of Corondor.

Game 2: We had only 8 minutes left to termination, i played aggressively but couldn't fight 2 Mazes and Zuran orb even after remove'ing graveyard away (with 1 Maze and and Laom), didn't have Gaddock Teeg on table. He scapeshift for little i had leathal dmg on table to take off it. Next draw Absolute law... termination come and draw. 1-0-1
1-1

3 Round was Dredge
Game 1: I know dredge very well played it for a while. I opened very good hand with Tabernacle, StP, Goyf wasteland and Savannah. I played Savannah and pass the turn, opp played Gemstone and Imp. In this moment i recognize that i made mistake (should play wasteland but who knows that i was dredge). I played wasteland -> waste his gemstone and pass with opened Savannah for StP. He discard Troll, dredge for six (next troll, iona, bridge, Ichorid, some trash for Ichorid and amoeba), then he played a Cephalid Coloseaum and... (i was worried about Breakthrough) but he just pass after attack. I played Tabernacle and pass the turn, he put up ichorid (Sworded) dredge for more fuel next moeba in play (only one Bridge). After topdecking Loam i was safe wasted his last land and played Goyf(5/6). Few rounds later was gg.

Side in: Pithing Needle, Tormod's Crypt, Bojuka Bog
Side out: 2 Aven Mindcensor, 1 arbiter

Game 2: Was similar but with Tormod's Crypt on table and Tabernacle on open. Wasted/Quartered to death. After playing i was talking with him to optimize his sideboard plan - that was his first try with dredge. I couldn't find answer for tabernacle. Also wrong sideboarded - he take off Flame-Kin Zelot..

2-1

4 Round German Loam (Moxes, Exploration with Knight of the Reliquary beater)

Game 1: Don't remember it good, but massive aggro with goyfs/arbiters with mana disrupt (wasteland to Maze) enough he didn't find loam (had intuition) but never had 5 mana on table.

Side in: Pithing Needle, Tormod's Crypt, Bojuka Bog.
Side out: Tabernacle, Ghostly Prison, Fickerwisp

Game 2: Was his, no vial mull to 5 eated to death by Wastelands from Loam and Rishadan Ports.

Game 3: I made good tempo with Arbiters/Goyfs(1/2 lol) from vial with Crypt on table. I was suprised by his sideboard with Terferi's Response. But he still couldn't survive tempo. His last hope was more maze's and Glacial Chasm, I used 3 Mangaras without Karakas to break his plans and wins. 2-1

3-1

5 Round GW Survival (with Iona/Retrainer)

Game 1: Was clasical porno from Survival. He win the roll (Fetch->Forest->Hierarch). (No StP in hand) second was Survival and pass. Arbiter on table (StP).. 3rd turn i had 3 Vengevine rushing.. in 2 rounds (with another StP for blocker).

Side in: Tormod's Crypt, Bojuka Bog, Pithing Needle
Side out: 2 Life from the loam, Ghostly Prison (this card is bad vs survival GW with pride mages).

Game 2: Was asymmetrical to first, he had flood (after game i ask him about number of lands 23 is too much imo) i Sworded his bop, and blow up Survival with Qasali (locked for a while with Arbiter). After 2 Goyfs and Knight with Mangara backup he pass.

Game 3: Wasn't funny. He started with Savannah Bop i StP from Canopy, he wasted it and pass. I wasted Savannah and Vial. He miss his next land drop. Arbiter he topdeck fetch. Then eated to death by mine Loam + waste under Arbiter with Goyfs. 2-1

4-1.

Semi-finals

Round 6 Next Survival, this time Gb thought it will be Ooze..

Game 1: Was total punish to Survival. I win the flip and opened with Vial. After take off BoP and waste Bayou game was almost mine. I put arbiter from vial and qartered forest. Then Goyf/Goyf/and 2 Flickers at beginning. That was fast.. Opponent was impressed.

Side in: Tormod's Crypt, Bojuka Bog, Pithing Needle
Side out: 2 Life from the loam, Ghostly Prison (this card is bad - to costy vs survival GW with pride mage).

Game 2: Bayou-> Thoughseize take down Arbiter.(he was good scouting when i beat Survival round before). I ansewered with wasteland -> Bayou. Next turn, Fetch -> Cabal therapy take off both StP. Mine Karakas pass. He put on survival on table after droping forest and that mean mostly gg. I found Goyf on topdeck and pass. He put next land and had 3 mana. He discard Vengevine, goes for Birds and discard Fauna shaman and goes for Quirion Ranger. I didn't topdeck any thing to take of Survival and survive alfa strike from Vengevines with Shriekmaw's backup and Game 3 started. I saw Prgenitus while discarding.

I decided to didn't put Gaddock Teeg vs Orders. Maybe that was wrong.

Game 3: Was similar to Game 2 with he take off mine Arbiter with StP than, 2 BoPs then Natural Order next round to Progenitus. Couldn't do anything (poor hand after mull to 6 with 2 vials).

Bad luck with sideboard, didn't met any Storm/Burn

Comments please

I came to this thread to read about D&T's thoughts on the spoiled crusader and I like this list. A little hard to read but nice report. would like to write more later.

good job. I'm working on a arbiter list now but I wouldn't call it D&T and mine's WR not WG. interesting

[LegacyDan]

I actually use Kor Duelist and Goldmeadow Harriers. Harriers are more useful for EOT tapping, and then tapping down the final blocker. Mom is good at stopping removal, yes, but I find her useless in other ways. IE: my meta has a decent amount of Factories and Mutavaults, blockers that Mom can't stop.

And no, there was no contradiction. I would gladly run Mom if I wasn't interested in making store credit or increasing my DCI. Or if my meta shifts of course. But until that day comes, she will stay in my binder where I keep all of my other D+T options.

[Fatal]

Thx, sorry for my poor language.

Tomorrow going next testing on Legacy Tournament - Legacy Mobilizacja. I'm going to write report from it.

Adding some thoughts about list:

I was working on adding some more single lands and moxes to speed up a little (on first turn - arbiter drop) but after testing i think it is bad idea. Current list is very consistance, it doesn't have draw engine so CA is very important here. With moxes/more lands it loose it.

This list has one big advantage on standard D&T:
It is prepared for most actually decks and it is very stable.

[forsmark]

With the recent banning of Survival, where does this put Death & Taxes? Stronger? Weaker? How would an updated list look like?

I am interested in this deck, seeing as I am looking to pick up a new deck soon. I have been sleeving this up as a proxy deck for the last few days, and I really like the feel of the deck. However, before I venture out and buy me some white dudes I would really like to hear som opinions from current Death & Taxes' players.

- forsmark

[from Cairo]

With the recent banning of Survival, where does this put Death & Taxes? Stronger? Weaker? How would an updated list look like?


The Arbiter/Mindcensor lists had pretty good game versus Survival, while maintaining solid match up versus Tribal. Honestly, I think the deck was positioned pretty well in the pre-Dec.20th meta. The combo decks that were/are present are still rugged match ups, but D&T holds up versus most of the fair decks that don't have huge sources of card advantage that we can't mitigate. Engines like: CBT was evadable by Aether Vial, or Goblin Ringleader being trumped by Sword of Fire and Ice; Survival was answerable with the Arbiter/Mindcensor plan. It's probably too early to say, but with Survival out of the picture, I'd expect to see more Zoo, CBT, and board control decks, none of which are particularly favorable. Card parity/advantage in the form of Pernicious Deed, Jace the Mind Sculptor, Sensei's Diving Top, Sylvan Library, etc we don't tend to pack mainboard solutions for.

Personally, I'm probably going to be picking up UW Tempo again as my WW deck of choice. I think it's positive/even match ups are similar to D&T's, while having better game versus D&T's weaknesses - combo and control.

[colo]

I plan to capitalize on my D&T build for the rest of this year (I guess Survival lists will continue infesting the meta until the end of 2010), and then sit back for a week or two and watch new trends pick up steam and unfold. I'd like to go back to a Pikula list of mine that was very successful around here before the VV-Surv crapfest took off, though I'm also considering picking up UW Tempo again. Not becuase I think that D&T will begin to suck in the post-Survival format, but because I like certain amounts of diversity in what I play. :)

In the end, it's really just a meta question. D&T is a strong deck in each and every but the most combo-infested metagames, and picking up some rather cheap and actually pretty versatile cards to build the deck is a solid plan at any time and rate, imho.

[Fatal]

Two days ago i played 5 rounds in blind meta game. I made poor 2-3, let's start analysis.

Deck called Loamed D&T

Artifacts:
4 AEther Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Creatures:
3 Mangara of Corondor
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Flickerwisp
4 Leonin Arbiter
2 Aven Mindcensor
3 Qasali Pridemage

Enchantments:
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Ghostly Prison

Sorcery:
2 Life from the Loam

Instants:
1 Enlightened Tutor
4 Swords to Plowshares

Lands:
4 Savannah
4 Temple Garden
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Wasteland
2 Forest
1 Plains
2 Ghost Quarter
3 Karakas
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

SB(mostly focused on strom/burn/gobs/zoo):
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Absolute Law
1 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Choke
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Round 1 - ANT (bad bad MU) - I lost the flip.

Game 1 - Wasn't funny, : Opponent started - Fetch, Dark Ritual, 2 x LED, Infernal Tutor -> Ad N-> Tendrils for 20..gg
0-1

Side in: 3 Gaddock Teeg, 4 Leyline of Sanctity, Choke, Tormod's Crypt
Side out: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Ghostly Prison, 3 Flickerwisp, 4 Swords to Plowshers

Game 2 - I started Leyline on table, Temple Garden tapped go, opponent swamp thoughtseize (on my hand 2 Leonin Arbiter, Mindcensor, Goyf, Savannah) he choose Goyf. Next rounds i put 2 x Leonin and Ghost Quarter his lands he didn't find aswer for Leyline without lands (only fetches on hand).
1-1

Game 3 - He started with Duress (probably scarred Orim's Chant's) i kept hand with Leyline and Goddeck Teeg. Leyline gived me time for put Goddeck on Table and this enough, with KotR on table game ended very fast.
2-1

After this round i made little scouting i looks at other tables. Meta was awful (last tournament with SotF: Couple of Survivals with Vengevines, 2 Belchers, ANT, Dreadstill, Goblins, White Weenie, one Dark Horizons - 0 Merfolks not so friendly MU for me)

Round 2 - GWb Survival - I won the flip

Game 1 - I kept hand after mull to 6 with vial, wasteland, StP and Goyfs - good one. I started with Vial and pass. Opponent Forest Noble Hierarch. Charge Vial, waste and Goyf. Next opponent put Fauna Shaman and put fetch. I Charge Vial, draw Arbiter i StP his Fauna shaman, and Waste his fetch he smiles and response, so am I with Arbiter (he read it two times and was disgusting :] ). Game ended quite fast with Qasali on table and Goyfs. No Survival - No win.
1-0

Side in: Pithing Needle, Bojuka Bog, Tormod's Crypt, Krosan Grip
Side out: 2 Oblivion Ring, Enlightened Tutor (to slow), Life from the Loam

Game 2 - He started with Hierarch, i Kept bad hand after mull to 5 (no Cenzor/Arbiter/Gravehate) but with Jitte. He take of Jitte with his own Jitte and in turn 3 he put Survival on table, without and answer i died in 2 turns.
1-1

Game 3 - He started normal with BoP and pass, i had arbiter on my turn (sworded).Opp adding more BoPs. I put Goyf and pass. He draw (btw nice topdeck) and cast Natural Order -> Progenitus. That game ended quite fast. He chump block on BoPs and kill me in next rounds.
1-2

Natural Order was annoying specially on 3rd game - but on that day Natural Order was going to be more annoying ;).

Round 3 - Belcher he win the flip

Game 1 - He started vomiting all hand and put 16 tokens - i didn't have Tabernacle on start and on draw so lose..
0-1

Side in: 4 Leyline of Sanctity, 3 Gaddock Teeg, Pithing Needle, Umezawa's Jitte, Krosan Grip
Side out: 2 Oblivion Ring, 2 Life from the Loam, 4 Swords to Plowshares, 2 Mindcensor

Game 2 - Was easy i draw Leyline and Gaddock, with fast beater like Goyf. Game ended fast.
1-1

Game 3 - I Know that my opponent only chance was Empty the Warrens (he popably take out Belcher - too many hate) i mull hard to Prison/Tabernacle/Gaddock and didn't find any of them after mull to 5.. that was sad. Opponent put 16 tokens in 3rd round and game ended.
1-2

Round 4 - next combo ? Aluren - yes :), lost the flip..

Game 1 - I know this is my good MU - Aluren. He's Combo uses searchers so its easy to disturb it with hate bears, and that was first game was from his side draw, land, go to the end.. After more and more beaters (Arbiter/Goyfs/Cenzor) on my side.
1-0

Side in: Umezawa's Jitte, 3 Gaddock Teeg, Choke
Side out: Tabernacle, Ghostly Prison, StP,2 Oblivion Ring

Game 2 - Game started with hard discard Thoughtseize, Terapy and so on. I put Arbiter but he was flooded with basics. I put little pressure but he draw Pernicous Deed and clean the table at the end of my round and cast Natural Order (i didn't have Cenzor) 2 rounds later gg.
1-1
I reside: Pithing Needle with second Swords to Plawshares.

Game 3 - I put second turn Goddeck Teeg and vial, had karakas. But simular to Game 2 i didn't draw Tutor or Qasali and he flooded with lands and Deed -> clean, fetch Order gg. That was really annoying.
1-2

I have to find some answer for Progenitus or probably meta fluctuate with more control and NO died as normal.

Last round was with Rogue WW deck with vials and allies - easy MU not worth raported 2-0 for me.

Overall: 2-3 is bad record.
In 5 rounds - 4 combo decks (or 3 and survival), no control. Very bad MU for me. Sideboard works quite well, but to win u need to draw it ;]

I was thinking about this: http://magiccards.info/vi/en/119.html in sideboard, Retribution of the Meek looks quite well but after SotF i think its not needed.

[eq.firemind]

If you really don't like Hydra, try Tariff.
Retribution of the Meek conflicts with your Goyfs and KotRs.
Runed Halo is also an option, but you'll have some trouble flying over Hydra 'cause you run lower amount of evasive creatures and no equips.

[Oxmo39]

Playing against 3 combo decks is quite unlucky!
Progenitus can also be answered by runed halo but it will always remains an issue for us.
It also seems that the loam engine has not been that useful...what are your thoughts about it ?

By the way :




Game 2 - I started Leyline on table, Temple Garden tapped go, opponent swamp thoughtseize (on my hand 2 Leonin Arbiter, Mindcensor, Goyf, Savannah) he choose Goyf.

How can you be thoughtseized with the leyline on the table ?

[Fatal]

Good question ! (probably i forgot about it..), Loam engine is fine vs decks with multiple fetch effects and duals, also helps with wastelands and so on, but i didn't met any of this kind of deck so i side it out mostly. Tariff looks friendly :)

Loam engine stabilize mana, and is good fed for Goyfs and KotR's. Also with Quarter can be had issue to opponent, i think it will more fit after meta warp pre survival.

[LegacyDan]

changed my SB a little, there was a slight change in my Meta. 3x Kitchen Finks has to be my new favorite sb choice. They are great in my 3 whatever slots.

[Penguinizer]

Das Bump:

I'm going to go to a random Legacy tournament tomorrow. I'm gonna run a fairly baseline Leonin Arbiter list consisting of:
MD:
Lands: 21
11x Plains
4x Karakas
3x Rishadan Port
3x Flagstone of Trokair

Mobs: 25
4x Mother of Runes
4x Serra Avenger
4x Leonin Arbiter
3x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Jötun Grunt
4x Flickerwisp
3x Mangara of Corondor

Spells:14
4x Aether Vial
4x Swords to Plowshares
Umezawa's Jitte
Sword of Light and Shadow
Sword of Fire and Ice
3x Oblivion Ring

Total: 60

SB:
3x Tormod's Crypt
3x Kitchen Finks
3x Ethersworn Canonist
3x Wing Shards
2x Cataclysm
1x Jötun Grunt

Total: 15

Keep in mind I own no Wastelands, and didn't manage to borrow any. Is there anything else that's immediately foreseeable as a mistake.

[4eak]

Flagstones and Leonin don't play nice. Why play Flagstones for just 2 Cataclysm? SFM doesn't play nice either, but that is more acceptable to me.

-3 Flagstones
+3 Plains

I think 3x Jotun grunt in the main is just too much. Drawing multiples of that card is rarely acceptable.

You absolutely must have the 4th Port. It sucks to not have the Wastelands.

-1 Grunt
+1 Port

I'm probably in the minority here, but I think the 4th Mangara and SFM are very much worth it. I'm also not much a fan of Arbiter. I'd consider:

-4 Leonin Arbiter
+2 Aven Mindcensor
+1 SFM
+1 Mangara



peace,
4eak

[mrjumbo03]

I won't go with 3 flagstones... unless your meta is filled with staxx and pox because it may end up being disadvantageous to you... 2 is the number for this deck, even with MB cataclysms...

[Penguinizer]

The Flagstones+Arbiter thing escaped me.

Also, I don't own more Ports. The store only had 3. I could probably get 1 wasteland in time, since turns out they have 1. I have no extra SFMs or Mangaras either...

-3 Flagstones
+2 Plains
+1 Wastelands

[4eak]

At the very least, that 3rd Grunt has to go. What cards do you have to replace it? Even a 4th O-ring merits play before the Grunt.

I'm not even really a fan of Jotun Grunt altogether though. It is the least of the cards in your 60, imho. I'm also likely in the minority on this one: consider Elspeth. Even Kitchen Finks or Ethersworn Canonist in the main are better than Grunt, imho. Doubling up 'anti-search' effects, running 2 Aven Mindcensors in addition to your Arbiters, seems better than Grunt to me as well.

Despite the tricks that can be had with Grunt, I've been let down by that card too many times. It is all too often a white Keldon Marauders.



peace,
4eak

[Penguinizer]

I'll cut one Grunt, I suppose I could add a random Elspeth or mindcensor to the list, or I could get a heavily played Wasteland and add that as well.

Options:
4th O-ring
Random Elspeth
Random Mindcensor.

I just picked the random Mindcensor. It can still carry a sword while flying, and might be useful depending on the meta. Sadly, I have no idea how it'll form with the survival ban. I'm expecting 1-2 Storm at most, if even that. At least 1-2 Dreadstill, some goblins, some zoo, lots of various tier 1.5-tier 2 decks.

[Justin]

I'm not too sure about the sideboard, but here is my list. I don't think that Leonin Arbiter or Aven Mindcensor make the cut anymore in a post-Survival Legacy. For me, the MVP of the deck is usually Stoneforge Mystic. I also like the single Elspeth in this deck.

// Lands
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
10 [MR] Plains
4 [LG] Karakas
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [TSP] Mangara of Corondor
4 [EVE] Flickerwisp
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
4 [TSP] Serra Avenger
4 [UL] Mother of Runes
2 [LRW] Goldmeadow Harrier

// Spells
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
4 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
1 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow
1 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 4 [M11] Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 4 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [CHK] Ghostly Prison

[Penguinizer]

I didn't like Leonin Arbiter at all. I kept on siding them out constantly. I'm probably going to splash green as well when I can. Until then, I'll run the Enlightened Tutor SB build with Goldmeadow Harriers.

Here's my GW plan:
// Lands
2 [UG] Forest
2 [RAV] Plains (3)
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [B] Savannah
4 [LG] Karakas

// Creatures
4 [TSP] Serra Avenger
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [EVE] Flickerwisp
2 [CS] Jotun Grunt
4 [FNM] Mother of Runes
3 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
3 [TSP] Mangara of Corondor
3 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
1 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow
4 [OV] Swords to Plowshares
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [CS] Jotun Grunt
SB: 1 [U] Meekstone
SB: 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [SOA] Oblivion Ring
SB: 2 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 [WL] Aura of Silence
SB: 1 [SHM] Wheel of Sun and Moon
SB: 3 [FNM] Wing Shards
SB: 3 [MI] Enlightened Tutor

The toolbox could use other cards, and the manabase could also use fixing.

[4eak]

I have played extensively with the Green splash. Originally, I thought it would be a better version of DnT. In the end, I found that the proper evolution of the green splash turned into something which wasn't DnT at all, but rather a GW tempo deck which eschewed all the hallmarks of a DnT deck.

If you are going to bend the manabase over, at least do it for more than QPM, Teeg, and Canopy (which is a card I don't take lightly). I think the best DnT deck (which actually plays cards like Mangara, Flickerwisp, and Ports) are mono white. I think there is a strong GW tempo deck to be made, but in the end, it isn't going to be DnT.



peace,
4eak

[Penguinizer]

I'm eventually going to also add Goyfs. I'm also thinking of cutting the Jötun Grunts and something and adding some Knight of the Reliquarys. Removing Jötun Grunt from the SB would also add some new things to the SB.

EDIT: There are supposed to be 3x Krosan Grips as well. Forgot about them.

[mrjumbo03]

Lewis Laskin in the top4 of SCG Kansas using GW Taxes

Wow what a sick topdeck from horizon canopy...
G2 and dead on the attack, he popped horizon canopy to draw swords, the only card that would let him live!

Edit: He just lost...boo...
Merfolk and Gobs in the Finals

[from Cairo]

The toolbox could use other cards, and the manabase could also use fixing.

Two things that jump out are that you can cut a basic Forest for an additional basic Plains. Your Green splash isn't that heavy there is no double Green requirements and for instance fetching a Forest than drawing another or having two in your top 10 cards is like having an extra colorless land instead of a useful basic. Mangara, Avenger and Flickerwisp all need double White, I think think this swap would help smooth things out.

The second thing would be swapping Ethersworn Canonist #2 for a Thorn of Amethyst. When playing UW Tempo I really liked having diverse options against fighting combo and with the Enlightened Tutor toolbox this allows you to grab whichever is better for a given board state or if you draw one you can tutor the other to supplement. Canonists' ability isn't good in multiples anyway, and getting both pieces down makes it that much harder for a storm combo player to remove either/both.

[nwong]

@Penguinizer: the only thing I'd be worrying about is possibly taking too many pings from tapping Canopies for mana.

[Star|Scream]

Hey, any advice on this deck for a meta where the top decks feature the following cards: Dreadnought, standstill, mishra's factory, counterbalance, SDT

also included are zoo, belcher, ANT

am I better off taking fish?

[from Cairo]

Hey, any advice on this deck for a meta where the top decks feature the following cards: Dreadnought, standstill, mishra's factory, counterbalance, SDT

also included are zoo, belcher, ANT


You might want to max out Wastelands if expecting Standstills and Factories. Flickerwisp is good against Dreadnought. The Green splash gives you Qasali Pridemage that's good against Dreadnought and CB. If you're staying mono-White you probably are going to want 3-4 Oblivion Rings and maybe squeeze some Devout Witnesses into the SB to help you handle the abundance of Artifacts/Enchantments.

Maxing Stoneforge Mystic helps against Zoo. Kitchen Finks is also a good option for the SB.

Mindbreak Trap/Orim's Chant and Ethersworn Canonist would be good options versus Storm.

[t3hwo0ki3]

Hey D&T bretheren, I'm currently working on 2 separate builds with different play styles and metagaming in mind. I would like to share them with you for critique. If it deserves it, be harsh. I've nearly finished my 'D&T' binder with essentially an extended card pool for different archetypes and metagaming.

Anyhow, the lists with brief explanations:

Death&Taxes: Disruptive Variant-75 cards
Critters: 25
2 Jotun Grunt
3 Aven Mindcensor
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 Flickerwisp
4 Mother of Runes
4 Serra Avenger
Spells: 7
3 Mana Tithe
4 Swords to Plowshares
Relics: 6
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Aether Vial
Mana: 22
3 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Karakas
8 Plains
Sideboard: 15
3 Wing Shards
3 Cataclysm
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Pithing Needle
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Runed Halo
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Aura of Silence

This build aims to work with the standard mana denial package along with Canonists and Tithes mainboard to create some light tempo advantage. So far I've only had the opportunity to test against Goblins, Naya and Deadguy with this build on MWS but Tithe can be a blowout g1 and g2 post-cataclysm. Against Goblins, tithe allows you to nullify crucial plays so you can save your StP for a Piledriver. Against Deadguy, which plays at sorcery-speed for the most part Tithe allows you to disrupt their curve while you slowly poop out more efficient creatures. Tithe can essentially be considered removal 5-7 against fields awash with aggro. The soft-lock between Tithe&Canonist occasionally works in your favor if you're denying them mana and playing defensively. Turn 1 MOM or Vial can be a blowout on the following turn stopping Tarmogoyf/Pridemage/*any 2-drop* or when they get the nuts with 3 1-drops out on turn 2. I've often heard the same Tithe argument as playing Force Spike or Mana Leak 'run 4 or don't run them at all' well D&T is well-known for running 3-ofs cards they want to see often, but don't want to draw as much lategame.

The mainboard Mindcensors allow you to nullify crucial plays much in the same vein as Arbiter, except it can't be played around and doesn't require a vial for the surprise effect. That, and it's a flier to pick up equipment if need be. I'm still not entirely sold on them though, but I really feel it fits the purpose of this specific deck. Now I know most folks believe Mystic should only be played as an x-x split between herself and equipment. But I've found that I often want to see a mystic, but rarely want to open the game with any equipment as to I need to establish board position first. D&T builds tailored to a faster clock can obviously supplement more, as to I'll get to that later. The sideboard is standard D&T with the exception of 2 Wing Shards in the 3 'whatever' slots. I see a decent amount of mono-red, goblins, and naya in 1 of the 3 metas I play at weekly, so having diversified removal in the board is always something I like to have. Sometimes, 4 simply is not enough. Or if I'm playing against Bant or any other aggro list with Countermagic, Shards can be the nuts. Good luck countering all of those storm copies champ ;-)

*note* I am actually thinking of trying +1 Grunt and +3 Weathered Wayfarer in this build to maximize our Wastelands, Flatstones of Trokairs post-cataclysm and give a bit of a leg-up against a more controlling metagame. What do you guys think?


Death&Taxes: Aggressive Variant-75 cards


Critters: 26
2 Stonecloaker
3 Flickerwisp
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Jotun Grunt
4 Mother of Runes
4 Serra Avenger
4 Kor Duelist
Spells: 4
4 Swords to Plowshares
Relics: 8
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Mask of Memory
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
4 Aether Vial
Mana: 22
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
4 Karakas
11 Plains
Sideboard: 15
2 Condemn
3 Kitchen Finks
4 Enlightened Tutor
1 Aura of Silence
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Pithing Needle

This deck's purpose should be obvious. Forgo a bit of the control elements to devote to a faster clock. The Wasteland count is up to 4 and I've added Mishra's Factory essentially bringing up my threat count to 29. We still have Wisp shenanigans and Mangara lock available to us, just with more efficient beaters. The equipment count is up to 4 to supplement Kor Duelist along with running the 3rd Grunt with the inclusion of Mask of Memory. This can help grunt stick around a lot longer and provide this deck some much-needed card selection. I'm going to be doing extensive testing running Mask, so don't get too excited about its inclusion.

I'm going to avoid beating a dead horse here by saying Stonecloaker is:
1. Aggressive
2. Tricks
3. A flier to throw equips on
I hope that's enough explanation for my 2-of.

The sideboard aims to make up in games 2 and 3 with whatever the deck lacks G1. I'm running Finks in lieu of Forge-Tender because he's more aggressive and persist is retarded. The life gain coupled with Condem should really help shore up any troublesome matches where Mangara and Stonecloaker aren't as stellar as I'd like. I am seeing why a sideboarded Sword of Body and Mind is worthless. Decks where I'd side it in are relying on their graveyards being full. So it's synergistic in that respect. Maybe we'll find a use for it, maybe not. But not atm. [/spoiler]

I'm not bragging here, but I really spent a lot of time on this. Please be thorough and civil if you disagree or simply don't like something.

Thanks all!
-Aaron

*EDIT*

I'm sorry for the long post folks. Does this site offer deck, card, and spoiler tags? I checked the forum rules post but couldn't find any information.

[LegacyDan]

Hey Aaron, its Dan. I like your lists, the more aggressive one seems like fun. The card advantage in the form of Mask of Memory is interesting, but have you considered Lightning Greaves? It serves as attack and defense what with the Haste and Shroud.

As for Kor Duelist, I suggest running 2 or 3 never 4. The card is SICK with anything on it, but otherwise he is just an Eager Cadet.

[t3hwo0ki3]

Dan,
Good looking out on the Kor Duelist. I posted that list on Sal. and folks just dismiss stuff out of hand. You'd consider only running him as a 2-of? What do you suggest in an aggressive build with 2 available slots? Harrier? BFT? Isamaru seems like a solid choice..

Thanks!

[Maëlig]

Speaking of kor duelist, has anybody tried a more equipment-focused approach, with this and the new mirran guy, as well as more equipments (3 stoneforge 3 jitte 2 swords for eg)?

[LegacyDan]

Speaking of kor duelist, has anybody tried a more equipment-focused approach, with this and the new mirran guy, as well as more equipments (3 stoneforge 3 jitte 2 swords for eg)?

I actually run a kinda equipment heavy version of D+T. As of now, I have two "x" slots in my main that are currently being filled by two Kitchen Finks. When Besieged drops, I will be testing out two Crusaders in their spots.


Dan,
Good looking out on the Kor Duelist. I posted that list on Sal. and folks just dismiss stuff out of hand. You'd consider only running him as a 2-of? What do you suggest in an aggressive build with 2 available slots? Harrier? BFT? Isamaru seems like a solid choice..

Thanks!

Well, I do run him as a two of in my deck. I the extra two spots in list #2 I would suggest BFT. As you saw last week, we have more Ichorids and R heavy decks than anything else, so running BFT would be a wise choice IMHO.

[Star|Scream]

If one were to maindeck 3 mindcensors, would PTE ever be acceptable over STP?

I have very limited experience with this deck. I don't own any STP so I tried it out and the interaction is nice. Plus if you're off white mana with no vial you can pte your own dying creature to help out with some land.

I guess it's not good to give your opponents land if you're trying to deny them with ports, though. what about in a more aggressive portless build?

[Jabari]

I played DnT this weekend and got completely crushed by Goblins, I was running Harriers instead of BFT and couldn't get my Ghostly Prison. As of now I'm thinking BFT looks far superior. Any other suggestions for SB in this matchup

[Maëlig]

If one were to maindeck 3 mindcensors, would PTE ever be acceptable over STP?
This has been covered previously. The short answer is no, because it's too situational. You want cards that are good on their own.


Any other suggestions for SB in this matchup
You could pack some tivadar if you're really worried about this MU. It's stellar against gobs, but it's much more narrow than BFT (which is why the latter sees more play).

[t3hwo0ki3]

I've got a list on the previous page outlining a battle plan not utilizing Rishadan Port. It's definitely more aggressive-minded and plays 3 Mishra's Factories main in lieu of Ports and the fourth Wasteland.

Best of luck!

[nwong]

Now that pithing needle has legs

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19740-[SCD]-Phyrexian-Revoker

I think we've found the creature that can fill the last flex slot? Especially in the mono-white build.

[(nameless one)]

What about this dude:

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=114234&d=1295324129



Translation (Not sure about the name)

Leonin Relicguardian WW

(Creature - Cat Cleric)

When * enters the battlefield, you may exile target artifact or enchantemnt.
When * leaves play return that card to the battlefield under its owners control.

2/2


Abuse it while its on the stack? Get rid of your opponent's Vials/Jitte/Counterbalance/whatever he/she has against you.

[Lorgalis]

Just saw the spoiled cards and I'm really excited!!!!!

For those who play the GW version, I think that Green Sun's Zenith is playable. Too bad that it can't fetch Kataki or Tivadar...

Anyways, with the other two new beauties spoiled, maybe the green splash has its days numbered...

Leonin Relicwatcher: Better than Oblivion Ring and probably outclasses Qasali Pridemage, one of the main reasons of the g splash.

Phyrexian Revoker: This card is what I've been longing forever. To me it's a bit weird that it's not white, but I guess they wanted it to be playable in any deck.

Wizards loves our deck. :D

[eq.firemind]

Needle on legs is even better 'cause it shuts off nonland manasources like Noble Hierarch, Mox Diamond and Lion's Eye Diamond (fits our manadenial plan greatly) and it can be vialed in. Oh, and it's colorless (very nice for a deck with 7 colorless lands and no cantrips/draw)!

The second dude looks not so bombastic, but we wanted white variation of Qasali Pridemage since WotC printed the cat. This one is notably worse, but Flickerwisp tricks make it better in this particular deck.

[Penguinizer]

I'll probably end up adding the needle on legs to my current tutor toolbox instead of Pithing Needle. I'm starved for ideas on what to add anyways.

[t3hwo0ki3]

Leonin Relic Guardian can indeed be mono-white's answer to Qasali Pridemage. Somebody already mentioned Flickerwisp, but what about going a step further with a more aggressive, tricksies-oriented build with Stonecloaker. Just might give D&T enough of an excuse to run him again.

Needle on legs is just that. He can hose all those Moxen, Deed, vial, Opposing equipment, Hierarch, Pridemages, Top, Planeswalkers, and Knight of the Reliquary to name a few. Having legs is something that can add to our clock, but every creature can kill him in combat and he's susceptible to every type of removal.

He's still worth some serious consideration.

[from Cairo]

On the new cards we've been presented with:

Leonin Relic Guardian: I'm not excited about this card. Being a cheaper CC than Oblivion Ring is nice, but the card is rarely needed in the very early game, and hitting :w::w: on turn 2 can be harder than hitting :2::w: the following turn. This card sacrifices a lot of the flexibility Oblivion Ring provides - it can't hit Creatures and it can't hit Planeswalkers. Unlike Qasali Pridemage it doesn't actually destroy the problem Artifact or Enchantment. Unlike Oblivion Ring it's susceptible to spot removal. It has some solid tricks with Flickerwisp and Stonecloaker, but by the time one has Aether Vial @3 for Flickerwisp tricks (or 5+ mana up for Stonecloaker tricks), I'd rather just be drawing Oblivion Ring or Mangara of Corondor.

Phyrexian Revoker: This card strikes me as a lot more promising. It's great MD hate against Control and Combo, while not being dead against the rest of the field. Being able to turn off Sensei's Divining Top, Engineered Explosives, Pernicious Deed, Jace, The Mind Sculptor, Vedalken Shackles - these are all great targets to not have to deal with, getting a 2/1 body to equip on top of that is great. Versus Combo it can hit Lion's Eye Diamond, Lotus Petal and Chrome Mox, again while speeding up one's clock. It also strikes me a being great versus some fringe decks like Affinity - hitting Arcbound Ravager or Cranial Plating. It has some solid flexibility in that it can hit Noble Hierarch and Mox Diamond which should prove to help midrange decks from getting ahead mana-wise, thus complementing our land disruption package. It's pretty limited in it's application versus Agro (Zoo, Gobs, Folk) but even there it can turn off Qasali Pridemages protecting equipment and Vials, or can turn off Goblin Sharpshooter or Siege-Gang Commander, and Coralhelm Commander.

I'm probably going to try to incorporate 2 Revokers to my MD, since his power level varies greatly depending on the match. Then put another 1-2 Sideboard to bring in versus decks that are more heavily geared with activated abilities.

[Barook]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=114428&d=1295587536

Thoughts about the new sword?

[Oibade]

Thoughts about the new sword?

I really hope the Red/White will be better.

Seriously, the discard effect is nothing exceptional. I find the untap lands ability a little too narrow for this deck: it could allow you to play another threat after equipping the creature; it could leave you with open mana for instant plays, but consider that you play very few instants in MD (maybe with Stonecloaker?); you could untap Rishadan Port in your turn... Then what?

I find it could be much better in decks with different lands, such as Mishra's Factory or Gaea's Cradle, or that rely massively on mana.

[Oxmo39]

@ the new sword :

the bonus and the pros look more important to me. A fetchable equipment that gives your equipped creature protection from many creatures and boosts it, is really important.
After that the abilities are just bonus. Howhever i have to admit that i am also a bit disappointed...
Even i am curious to test the untap lands ability. It can sometimes help to untap a freshly used karakas after mangara activation and to be able to protect mangara when you play/vial it in for next turn. And that's maybe to only interesting use i can find for the moment since i usually don't wanna play more than 1 spell per turn.
Tapping Rishadan for mana and untap it for taxing opponent is also interesting but yeah this ability looks subpar compared to others...

[Penguinizer]

How do you think GW builds with the new Zenith would look?

Another thing that's been bothering me. How to build my tutor toolbox. Here's what I've got for Mono W so far.

Ethersworn Canonist x2
Wheel of the Sun and Moon
Tormod's Crypt
Aura of Silence
Pithing Needle (soon to be Phyrexian Revoker)
3x Enlightened Tutor.

The rest of the SB is:
Jötun Grunt (2x MD)
2x Cataclysm
3x Wing Shards

[(nameless one)]

Hi guys,

Isnt GW D/T essentially Maverick.dec?

Can anyone explain the difference outside of the splashed green? I have this understanding that theyre both weenie aggro control.

Thanks!

[Finn]

I found the Maverick deck and yeah, they look similar. That sort of convergence happens a lot.

Even with all the accolades coming from folks, I am still thinking that I like the Relic Guardian better than the Revoker. There are a lot of decks using Vials these days and we really want a good answer for it in the main. I will probably try them both out, but Guardian seems to be what we have been looking for.

[Osmin]

IMHO:
Maverick uses Weathered Wayfarer and Knight of Reliquary to gain CA.
DnT uses creature tricks with Flickerwisp and Mangara.

[LegacyDan]

I found the Maverick deck and yeah, they look similar. That sort of convergence happens a lot.

Even with all the accolades coming from folks, I am still thinking that I like the Relic Guardian better than the Revoker. There are a lot of decks using Vials these days and we really want a good answer for it in the main. I will probably try them both out, but Guardian seems to be what we have been looking for.

He does act as a kinda o-ring that comes off of aether vial. I do like Revoker, he will be probly take Needles spot in my SB.

This new sword is not the one I was hoping for.

[Dissolution]

Death and Taxes - 1st Place
First place - SP Library of Alexandria
Second place - $25 in store credit.
1/22/11

Only 15 people showed up to play, which was 4 rounds cut to top 4. At least it was enough for the Library and a small prize for second.
I was slinging the deck I feel has no bad matchups, Death and Taxes.

Creatures
2x Goldmeadow Harrier
4x Mother of Runes
4x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Jotun Grunt
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Serra Avenger
3x Mangara of Corondor
4x Flickerwisp

Non-Creatures
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x AEther Vial
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
1x Umezawa's Jitte

Lands
3x Karakas
4x Wasteland
4x Rishadan Port
11x Plains

Sideboard
4x Pithing Needle
4x Burrenton Forge-Tender
4x Silence
3x Relic of Progenitus

Report (as best as I can remember):

Round 1 - Matt with B/W Deadguy (2-0)
G1 - Kept him off of white sources with Wasteland, he died to an Avenger with 3x swords in his hand
(-1 Mangara, -1 Grunt, -1 Canonist, +3 Needle (for his Equipment/Tricks)
G2 - Wasteland and Mangara kept him of white again, Needle stopped his Jitte, Avenger swung for the win.

Round 2 - Tim with Belcher (0-2)
G1 - 16 goblins on turn 1, I lose.
(-4 Mom, -4 Swords, -2 Harrier, -2 Grunt, +4 Needle, +4 Silence, +4 Tender)
G2 - Belch me for infinite his first turn.

Round 3 - Travis with Mono-B Hexmage/Depths (2-1)
G1 - Swords his threats, Karakas keeps him off of Merit Lage, I am able to drop all my threats and he dies with 5 cards in hand that would make me discard.
(No sideboard, I got cocky)
G2 - Turn 1 Hexmage (Mox Diamond), Turn 2 Depths, I don't draw any one of my 13 outs, I lose.
(-4 Canonist, +4 Needle)
G3 - I draw gas, he draws lands. Win.

Round 4 - ??? with Merfolk (2-1)
G1 - Force my Turn 1 Vial, I had to crack two Standstills for him. Lost to six attacking creatures (including 2x flying Coralhelm Commanders) while I had Jitte and SoFI on my side.
(-3 Canonist, -1 Mangara, +4 Needle)
G2 - Force my Turn 1 Vial. Avenger with Jitte, a Mom, and a Harrier seal it.
G3 - Force my Turn 1 Vial. Long, drawn out game. Kira hits play, Harrier + Karakas keeps it down until I get a Mangara. Mangara a Coralhelm, after EOT vial Flickerwisp, swing in for the win.
Some of the best games of magic I've played in a long time.

Top 4 - Anthony with Imperial Painter (2-1)
G1 - Two swords and a clock doesn't stop him from finding yet another painter and grinding me out. I also make the boneheaded play of fetching SoFI after he painters naming blue...
(-2 Harrier, -2 Grunt, -1 SoFI, -1 Mangara, -1 Canonist, -1 Mystic, +4 Needle, +4 Forge-Tender)
G2 - Turn 1 Needle, well placed wastelands, and a Jitted up Forge Tender take it home.
G3 - Turn 1 Needle, Rishadan port kept him from doing any tricks, if he'd had one more red mana the last turn (before I got him with Jitte'd Forgetender and 2x Avenger) he would've won.
Another great round of magic.

Top2 - Tim with Belcher (2-0)
I figure I've lost this one, but since I loaned him his deck, I have half of a Library anyway, so why not play it out?
G1 - He drops turn one Belcher, LED, crack... Taiga is his top card. Infinite cheering, I drop a turn 1 vial, Turn 2 Canonist, and he dies to various beats while holding a hand of Petal, 2x Rite of Flame, Seething Song, and Empty the Warrens. One more artifact source and I would've lost.
(-4 Mom, -4 Swords, -2 Harrier, -2 Grunt, +4 Needle, +4 Silence, +4 Tender)
G2 - He mulls to 6, turn 1 Land Grant. I see he has Belcher turn 2. I go T1 needle. Then T2 Canonist. I beat him in while he draws jank, eventually he goes for it and I silence in response to Seething Song, he dies the next turn.

Awesome tournament, great players all around.
I never boarded in the Relics, but I always worry about Dredge/Reanimator. Jotun Grunt never hit play once all day. Harrier won me game, Canonist always slowed the opponent down, and I will never go below 4 Mystic.

-T

[Grymer]

good job :D

but why 4 stoneforge mystic isnt it just overkill? i only play 3 in my list :)
and why only 3 karakas?? i play 4 cus the first 1 always get wasted and you allways want to see one :)

sorry if i suck at english... :)

[Dissolution]

I always want another Mystic. Opponents will waste countermagic on them, they let me play around major countermagic (using its other ability). Equipment is also the major reason you beat tribal.
When I'm in topdeck mode, the #1 card I want to see is Mystic. Gets me the equipment I need and a body to attach it o.
Karakas is Legendary, an it only interacts with 3 cards in my deck. If my meta was infested with Emrakul and Iona, I might be temped to play 4. As it was, there were at least 3 times during the tournament I had one in play in one in hand. Good opponents won't bother to waste Karakas until you have a way to abuse it, better to take out your ports so you can't disrupt them.
-T

[Fatal]

Next list G/W Loamed D&T:


4 Temple Garden
4 Wasteland
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Savannah
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Maze of Ith
2 Karakas
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Forest
1 Plains

4 Aether Vial

2 Oblivion Ring

2 Life from the Loam

4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Mother of Runes
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Mangara of Corondor
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Terravore
4 Leonin Arbiter

SB: 1 Sword of Fire and Ice
SB: 3 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Ghostly Prison
SB: 1 Choke
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Stoneforge Mystic
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist


Little word about build, its GW D&T more oriented on Land destroy/lock with tempo similar to New Horizons
Little report:

13 men tournament

R1 New Horizons (almost mirror :])

G1, After Vial resolve it was, almost gg, we wastelands both, quarter, loam lock.. gg

Side in: Choke, Enlightened Tutor,Tormod's Crypt, Bojuka Bog
Side out: Tabernacle, 3 Pridemage

G2, This game was really exited and long, after really hard wastelands, both, loam he stayed on 3 basics i had about 4 diffrent land (no quarter/conopy in GY), then me Terravore ->StP, he Terravore -> StP, me Terravore -> StP and again he Terravore -> StP (we was both then on about 50 life after those swords..) he topdeck KotR, get crypt. Remove his GY from the game. After 3th sword from his side on mine KotR i lose, but game was really long.

G3. Vial -> Quick Arbiter lock with Mangara on Karakas. KotR end the game.
2-1

R2 Next was Aggro Bant

G1 Quick waste/StP on Hierarch end his mana source, then KotR and gg he didn't have StP nor FoW.

Side in: Choke, Enlightened Tutor
Side out: Tabernacle, Mangara

G2 He mull to 2... and open plains -> needle on Vial. Obv gg for him, Goyfs made the job.

R3 Affinity (!! no one was prepared ..Few minutes before beginning of event i bought Kataki.. intuition ?! But didn't side it)

I new it can be hard MU, specially vs Etched Champion with ravager counters/plate

G1 Affinity has slow start, after 2 wastelands i won with goyfs and pridemage on table.

I made mistake on sideboard plan (probably i was shocked to face affinity and won first game :])

Side in: 2 Krosan Grip
Side out: 2 Leonin Arbiter

G2 Explosive start with 2 enforcers on second turn, with blast.. can't do anything i died quick.

G3 I had nice hand with wasteland, quarter and vial and few fatties (KotR include), he started with 2 Darksteel citadels and mox, then put regular 3 Etched Champion each turn. I use fetch maze, but after ravager comes in to play i was on to few life to survive.

After this games I was knew, that I made mistake i should put jitte/SoFI and Stoneforge Mystics vs.

R4 Merfolks U/b (thought it gonna be more Tribals but only face one of them)

G1 Easy MU i after FoWed Vial i take advantage and push with Goyfs and StP his lords, no chance.

Side in: 2 Stoneforge mytics, Umezawa's Jitte, SoFI, Choke, Enlightened Tutor, Ghostly Prison
Side out: Tabernacle, 4 Leonin Arbiter,2 Terravore

G2 Opponent Screw ended game fast, after waste mutavault, and FoWed Vial i put Stoneforge mytic -> SoFI and end the game fast.

R5 U/g/b Jace Control (quite funny with Intuition/Loam Engine)

G1 I was on draw, he FoWed Vial, then Spell Snare Goyf, then Counterspell Arbiter and ended with Jace protected with an other FoW. Really nice draw on his side.

Side in: Choke, Enlightened Tutor, 3 Goddeck Teeg, 2 Krosan Grip
Side out: Tabernacle, 4 StP, Maze of Ith, Life from the Loam

G2 Similar to first, couldn't do anything, he had too many removal/counter with great topdeck (Deed is pain, specially with Jace).

so 3-2-0

[Mosesthecoot]

I like the list. Combines two of my favorite archetypes. Would you change anything for next time? Maindeck or otherwise? Were the main arbiters as good as people say? What about them affecting you. Did you find it was a pain to pay for your own library searching?

[Fatal]

MD is very stable, actually i see no changes there. Sometime i think to put The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale on side, but every time it win the game (quite often) I can't decide. Also Oblivion Ring's depends on your meta, if there are quite many Planswalkers or random single bullets keep it, otherwise change to meta dependent cards.

I found that affinity is a little issue, even after side Echted Champion ale really hard to stop, specially with Darksteel Citadels. But i found nice card on side. If your meta is more focused on combo/affinity use Null Rod in one slot of Vial. I know this blocks your Vial, but affinity is DEAD when Null Rod hit the table, after fetching tabernacle is GG. Also single Null Rod can be tutored and helps vs combo MU.

I never had problems use Knights under Arbiter, Vial just gives u speed on creature casting that u can use all your mana to fetching or swording.

[AggroSteve]

other cards to stop etched champion would be mishras factory or wing shards(if he is attacking with just the champion^^, or threw 3 to 5 creatures on board, or whatever)

[colo]

Etched Champion is indeed strong, esp. with Cranial Plating and hitting for more than five damage a turn. THat annoying little chap beat the crap out of me a few times already, and there was nothing I could do about it (playing UW Tempo, though).

[eq.firemind]

Sword of Fire and Ice is the most fetchable equipment in my list, that explains why I have no troubles with 2/2 creatures.
Also, the new Phyrexian Revoker trades with Etched Champion and disables Cranial Plating.

[Fatal]

I think one Null Rod under Enlightened Tutor enough, along with 3 Pridemages, 4 StP, 4 Mangaras, 2 Orings. That's 15 cards which can destroy/remove artifact.. affinity shouldn't be a problem.
Adding Recurring Wasteland -> Life from the Loam should be easy.

[AggroSteve]

null rod is indeed strong against affinity, but recurring wasteland has allmost no use against some versions of affinity, specially the lists with glimpse of nature

and even if you have 15 cards that get rid of artifacts, if affinity gets a "god-hand" you probably will not be able to get rid of all his threats, specially not etched champion

[LegacyDan]

Why are people having trouble with Etched Champion? Both Jitte and SoFaI handle him easily.

[Fatal]

Maybe bacause with affinity good hand Jitte/SoFI (which Jitte is much better here) is just to slow, don't forget that affinity has removal.. I'm still thinking that Null Rod is what we need with Tutorable Side for this MU.

[CorpT]

If you want to kill Affinity, just run Kataki. I'm not having as many issues with Affinity though. It's pretty strong, but Jitte wrecks them. Even deals with Etched Champion.

[nwong]

Another tournie report!

For reference, here's the decklist.

Lands
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Forest
3 Karakas
5 Plains
4 Savannah
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath

Creatures
4 Flickerwisp
3 Mangara of Corondor
4 Mother of Runes
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Serra Avenger
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf

Artifacts
4 Aether Vial
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares

Sideboard
4 Enlightened Tutor
1 Runed Halo
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Aura of Silence
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Relic of Progenitus

This was my first real tournie and I had no idea what the meta was like, so I was pretty nervous.

First Match: Bant Aggro

G1: I open with vial, he plays noble hierarch. I stp hierarch, waste his dual, and pass. He plays another land and passes. I waste his second land, and vial in Avenger at eot. He doesn't recover.

Sideboarding: Nothing. I don't really know what's in his deck.

G2: He starts with fast with a hierarch, pridemage and a rhox. I luckily have a vial, and a couple of mums. He plays goyf and I remove it, and continue to stall with Mums. He plays Stoneforge Mystic, fetching SoLaS. I have the Pridemage in hand but wait till he plays and equips the sword before i vial it in to remove it. He Cliques me, taking Mangara, I draw into Mystic, fetch SoLaS. Topdeck Flicker. He decides to swing with his army, but I vial the Flicker removing and attacker, Mums do the rest. I do lose a mum though. Next turn SoLaS gets equipped onto Flicker, and that seals it.

1-0.

Second Match: Goblins.

G1: He has no lackey. But does have a piledriver and warchief. I have vial and mystic. I Stp the piledriver, and play mystic, and take a couple of hits while I get the SoFaI equipped. He gets a Siege Gang out, but it's too late. SoFaI kills it, and I grind him down.

Sideboarding: Nothing

G2: He again has no lackey, has piledriver and goblin king. I Stp the king, and mum keeps piledriver in check. I Pop his vial with a pridemage, and find a vial and mystic, while he plays ringleader, fetching ringleader. Second ringleader fetches warchief and siege gang. Luckily I have time to vial the stoneforge in, fetching SoFaI. He plays his Siege Gang and tries to swing for considerable hurt, but I have vial at 3 so I Flick his warchief out. No haste, I'm safe. SoFaI gets attached, and I shock his Siege Gang. He eventually loses.

2-0

Third Match: TES

G1: He wins the flip. Damn. I waste his land get a mum out. HE just shrugs and goes off turn 3.

Sideboarding: -4 StP, -3 Mangara, -1 Mystic, +4 E tutor, +1 Runed Halo, +1 Aura of Silence, +1 Ethersword Canonist, +1 Engineered Explosives.

G2: I mull to 5 looking for hate. Don't find it. He thoughtseizes, taking a pridemage. I topdeck another and play it. I topdeck a wasteland, take his land, and start beating with pridemage. He ponders trying to find stuff. Pridemage and his fetches get him to 8 before he tries to go off, and fizzles. I breathe a sigh of relief.

G3: I keep a hand with Mum, 2 E tutors, 1 land, and other stuff. I decide to keep, thinking that if I can just draw one more land, I can get canonist out turn 2 and aura of silence turn 3, which I think should be enough. He mulls to 5, and I'm liking my chances. He goes land go, I don't get a second land, but another Etutor. He duresses, taking one of the tutors. I draw. No land. Here I make a really stupid play mistake. I eot Etutor for Engineered explosives. I don't really know what I was thinking, since what I really needed was a land. He laughs as I play it, and I curse my stupidity. He goes off the next turn, and is on 20 when he resolves Ad Nauseum. I scoop up my cards, and watch him go through the motions.

After the game, I realise that what I should have done (assuming I don't just mull to a hopefully less risky hand) is turn 1 tutor for vial. That way I could have tutored for canonist and vialed it in without having to wait for a land. Whilst this wouldn't have been fast enough , it would have been much better than what I did, and I might even have pulled a win out if his wasn't as good (he admitted he had pretty much the perfect 5 card hand).

2-1

Fourth Match: UGB Thresh.

G1: We just trade cards. he forces my vial. I Stp his goyf. He removes my goyf and pridemage. I eventually get a mystic, fetching SoLaS. He removes the mystic, but I eventually get the sword equipped to Avenger and win.

Sideboarding: Nothing

G2: Same as G1. We has the Force for vial, and we trade cards. I get a Teeg down and he spends a couple of turns brainstorming/pondering. I drop mystic and get the SoLaS down, but he has a Deed and blows my board. I forget I have Karakas and don't bounce Teeg. He's unable to find a threat whilst I find a vial and get it up to 3. I draw into Flickerwisp and Mangara, and drop the Mangara, with Karakas to protect it. He throws removal at it and I am forced to bounce it. He has no cards in hand, so I hardcast Mangara. He draws removal, but I vial to flicker Mangara. I start removing his lands and beat with Flicker until he extends his hand.

3-1

I manage to tie 3rd. The TES guy and a guy playing merfolk tie for 1st and 2nd. Oh well, I'm pretty happy with the result.

I saw Dredge, Solidarity, Belcher, Bant Aggro, UGB Thresh, Merfolk, TES, S&T Emrakul. So the meta seems like a pretty okay one for DnT. Hopefully I'll make less misplays next time though.

Any feedback or suggestions for the decklist in this meta is welcome. And apologies for the lack of detail in the matches, I should really keep track of it next time.

[Fatal]

Nice report, and gj.

I read that u haven't got any good stuff vs Bant/Thresh while u have 4 E.Tutor u could cut one, and add Choke its total killing vs all of the Bant/Threshold.

Also nice card vs goblins/merfolks is Dueling Grounds with Mom its gg and swinging from the sky with equips. Both cards are tutorable so u should consider them.

[TossUsToLions]

Hey everyone, i've never played DnT before but i'm a big fan of the deck and i was wondering if anyone has ever tried a black splash or if it could work? Black would give Dark Confidant, Tidehollow Scullers, possibly Vindicates and a lot of sideboard options such as Engineered Plague and Perish.

Thoughts?

[Hopo]

Hey everyone, i've never played DnT before


Thoughts?

Play with it?

[AggroSteve]

the black/splash was discussed before, and was considered not worth it

the green splash is the only one that is successful together with the mono W build

[CorpT]

Hey everyone, i've never played DnT before but i'm a big fan of the deck and i was wondering if anyone has ever tried a black splash or if it could work? Black would give Dark Confidant, Tidehollow Scullers, possibly Vindicates and a lot of sideboard options such as Engineered Plague and Perish.

Thoughts?

This is what I'm playing now and it is amazing. It's more like the Deadguy deck + Tarmogoyf than DnT + Black though. No Vindicate, but Scullers, Bob and Thoughtseize.

[nwong]

Nice report, and gj.

I read that u haven't got any good stuff vs Bant/Thresh while u have 4 E.Tutor u could cut one, and add Choke its total killing vs all of the Bant/Threshold.

Also nice card vs goblins/merfolks is Dueling Grounds with Mom its gg and swinging from the sky with equips. Both cards are tutorable so u should consider them.

Thanks for the suggestions. You're definitely right that I didn't really use the sideboard at all in most matchups. Though the good news is that
those matchups are ones I consider to be in my favour. Against most blue decks, I only need to resolve either vial, teeg or stoneforge mystic
to take control of the game. For this reason I consider them to be pretty strong matchups so I don't think Choke will be necessary.

Thresh typically has a low threat density so I am usually able trade cards with them and beat them off the top, whilst they're still searching for that goyf or clique. They have lots of removal, but I have just as many things they need to remove - especially Mum and Mangara.

Bant aggro is a different story though. I think this matchup can be quite tough. Mum is obviously key, and wastelands can really wreck them. I was lucky enough to have 2 in both games, and managed to mana and colour screw him quite heavily. In this matchup, I don't think Choke will help as much since they are an aggro deck: by the time i drop choke, they should have dropped a hierarch, maybe a goyf or a pridemage. I'd much rather draw a threat against this deck than an Etutor or a choke.

Dueling grounds is an awesome suggestion though, and one i've been mulling over for a while too. I plan on attending a couple more tournies to get a better feel of the meta (the players here have multiple decks and play different ones every week) before adding it in. For now, though, I think the gobbo and merfolk matchup is sufficiently strong, and I'll hold on to the 4th tutor so I can find my hate pieces more frequently against other decks I may not be as strong against.

[lebarion]

Hey guys,
I'm trying to tune a monoW list of D+T for an aggro-heavy meta. I'm testing Kitchen Finks but many times I've found it too expensive, as eleven 3-drops (4 Flickerwisp + 3 Mangara + 4 Finks, not counting the O-Rings) seems too much. So, I'm considering Phantom Nomad. He can stall a couple attacks and is excellent carrying a Sword. Bad thing is that he don't kill a Nacatl by himself.
What do you guys think? Is there a better option for beating Zoo?

[Fatal]

If u really want to tech up vs Zoo MU here is the killer Perimeter Captain, for W, survive all burn, and adding life.

[lebarion]

Well, I guess I'd rather use something that attacks. Not putting any kind of pressure seems to go against the deck's strategy.
Phantom Nomad also can be Flickerwisp'ed to get the counters again. I'm also considering other so-so options, like Shaman en-kor (good combat tricks with mom) and Safehold Elite.

[LegacyDan]

Hey guys,
I'm trying to tune a monoW list of D+T for an aggro-heavy meta. I'm testing Kitchen Finks but many times I've found it too expensive, as eleven 3-drops (4 Flickerwisp + 3 Mangara + 4 Finks, not counting the O-Rings) seems too much. So, I'm considering Phantom Nomad. He can stall a couple attacks and is excellent carrying a Sword. Bad thing is that he don't kill a Nacatl by himself.
What do you guys think? Is there a better option for beating Zoo?

My suggestion would be to remove O-Ring. I did that a couple of weeks ago and I have never looked back on the decision. That way you can keep the Kitchen Finks (which are just awesome against Zoo) and add in some smaller goodies ( I like the Phantom Nomad idea myself, very interesting).

[Finn]

I feel that the best solution for Zoo is extra removal. I have been using Condemn in that role and I have been essentially happy with it. The trick to beating Zoo is to make it to the middle rounds with a good life total and then take control with your protection stuff and artifacts. Finks comes online late enough that it tends to play into Zoo's hands. You want to spend turn 3 preparing to establish control, so you need the damage mostly stemmed by then with cheaper cards on the first two turns. If you spend 3 mana on your main phase on this card and Zoo points Path to Exile at it at your EOT, you are dead meat. Perimeter Captain actually is a pretty good turn one play in this matchup. But it has to come out of the deck against mostly everything else except Goblins. I like Condemn because it also comes in against much of the field.

[whitescorpion]

The deck seems like it can support Revokers main deck and Relic Warders side. Revoker is actually good vs combo cuz you can actually name LED and screw them over. Also, it works fine vs show and tell, sneak attack, etc. it's an AS ability, so when you drop it vs countertop they have to use top asap or just have it be a dead card. There is actually very little reason to not MD it. VS zoo and gw taxes u can name pridemage too, LOL.

Also as a side note, I believe it's an awesome T1 in Dragon stompy, it can even allow you to negate a noble hierarch or pre-empt a vial. Sooo many applications, get yours now.

That will be all, for now....:cool:

[lebarion]

Well, just for information, I've tested all 2-drops I've mentioned (Phantom Nomad, Shaman en-Kor and Safehold Elite) and found all of them underwhelming.
Condemn did a better, specially against Zoo, but I don't like it hitting only attackers.
Burrenton Forge-tender did his job against Goblins. Against Zoo it was only OK.
I'll test Phyrexian Revoker in this slot and see how it goes. Although I don't think he'll be that great against Zoo, his versatility can warrant him a place maindeck.

[LegacyDan]

Depending on the build they are running, he can shut down Grim Lavamancer and Knight of the Reliquery.

[eq.firemind]

I'll test Phyrexian Revoker in this slot and see how it goes. Although I don't think he'll be that great against Zoo, his versatility can warrant him a place maindeck.

Depending on the build they are running, he can shut down Grim Lavamancer and Knight of the Reliquery.
The best thing he can do against Zoo is shutting down Qasali Pridemage so they'll have hard time dealing with your equipments.
Also, modern Big Zoo lists have plenty of other targets: Noble Hierarch and Planeswalkers.

[LegacyDan]

I wasn't trying imply that there was only two targets.

[zpikduM]

Hey everyone, i've never played DnT before but i'm a big fan of the deck and i was wondering if anyone has ever tried a black splash or if it could work? Black would give Dark Confidant, Tidehollow Scullers, possibly Vindicates and a lot of sideboard options such as Engineered Plague and Perish.

Thoughts?

Try this:
Black and Taxes


5 Plains
4 Marsh Flats
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
3 Karakas
1 Swamp

4 Mother of Runes
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Flickerwisp
3 Serra Avenger
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Mangara of Corondor

4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vindicate
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte


SB:

4 Thoughtseize
3 Engineered Plague
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Duress
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Perish


List above looks ok in theory.

[colo]

Without having tested this, I'd definitely cut two of those plains for additional fetchlands.

[zpikduM]

The -2 Plains +2 Arid Mesa was a good call. Instant speed Castigate is quite nice. Vindicate was replaced by O-ring [too many tricks with O-ring that make it better in this deck]. Otherwise, the Black splash DnT works really well. The [postSB] 10 discard spells tear apart combo, the Mangara/Karakas tears apart Control, and Engineered Plague and Swords deal with Tribal and other aggro decks.

[CorpT]

Try this:
Black and Taxes

List above looks ok in theory.

I really like this. I'm going to give this a try. It seems to combine the best of Deadguy and DnT.

[zpikduM]

I really like this. I'm going to give this a try. It seems to combine the best of Deadguy and DnT.

Good to know someone likes it.

Here's an updated list:
Dark Taxes:

4 Marsh Flats
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
3 Karakas
3 Plains
1 Arid Mesa
1 Swamp
1 Verdant Catacombs

4 Mother of Runes
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Flickerwisp
3 Serra Avenger
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Mangara of Corondor

4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vindicate
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard:
4 Thoughtseize
3 Engineered Plague
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Perish
2 Duress
1 Oblivion Ring

EDIT: Maybe Bitterblossom has a place here instead of Vindicate. Will do some testing on it later.

[Joe_C]

Volrath's stronghold should be in that deck.

[mrjumbo03]

Placed 6th after 6 rounds of swiss in a 54 man tourney... it was already late so we decided to split top8... My record was 4-1-1

Round1 BUG Landstill 2-0
Okay I start off my legacy tourney career against one of my worst matchups... but i guess there's really such a thing as beginner's luck!
Game1: He mulls, and i waste his first land... he gets stuck on 1 land for almost the whole game...
Game2: He mulls yet again, but this time he gets top online... we went back and forth, he proceeded to deed and explosives me... lucky for me he drew lots of lands, it came to a point that he has no more lands to fetch... he kills my dudes until i drew Mirran Crusader which kills him!

Round2 Merfolk 2-0
Game1: Both of us had vials but I flickered his so that set him back... Flickerwisp equipped with SOFI kills him in 3 swings...
Game2: Double Mom and vial opening hand... he had no vial and force... Serra Avenger and Flickerwisp kills him...

Round3: GoyfSligh 2-0
Game1: I draw a timely Oring for his 5/6 Goyf and he proceeds to draw lands
Game2: SoLaS for the win!

Round4 Burn 1-2
Game1: Double Grim Lavamancer = Sad DnT player
Game2: Managed to land a thorn of amethyst turn 2... Had a Serra Avenger and SoLaS, he fireblasts in response to equip but I had Flickerwisp to save her, this happened 2 consecutive turns
Game3: Double Grim Lavamancer but I managed to kill 1... On the last turn before I could have stabilized and me at 4, I had a creature equipped with SoLaS and a Jitte ready to be equipped, he topdecks price

Round5 Rock
Game1: I got explosives-ed but I managed to stabilize with Serra Avenger equipped with SoLaS and Flickerwisp and a Mother i think...
Game2: I managed to play Revoker naming Pern Deed, he plays explosives... he proceeds to deed me as well... he beats me with treetop, but i Pithing it... it came to a point that he had a 6/7 goyf, and i had a flickerwisp... I was at 9 life and he was at 15... i draw Mirran Crusader!He fetches to find an answer for 2 turns, I attack twice with Flicker so he goes to 7, and from there I attacked for the win... his next card, PTE!

Round6 ID Black Aggro? Bunch of 1mana 2/2's (We still played for nothing)
Game1: He succesfully hymns a plains and i proceed to be beat up by 4 2/2's
Game2: SoLaS for the win!
Game3: He goes darkrit hyppie and he gets to hit twice before i can get rid of it... SoLaS brings me to the end again...
Both G2 and G3 he had revoker on SoLaS, but I had relicwarder both games as well...

MD is the same as Finn's OP except -3plains,+2flagstones,+1wasteland and -2revokers,+1Oring,+Mirran Crusader

Didn't really use SB much because i didn't have bad matchups (beginner's luck i guess!) The Enlightened Tutors stayed in the SB all day... Despite all the combo floating around I didn't face one...

Notes:
- I think 2 is the number for revoker MD with 1 on the SB...
- I think Mirran Crusader is good in some metas but not more than 2... I'll try to fit another in the deck but I'm having a hard time with what to cut... the argument that he dies to STP, and burn applies to your other creatures as well except Grunt for the burn part... the added plus of chumping a huge KOTR and a goyf while you're fliers go over them is such a huge plus... and he doesn't die to GFTT/Smother etc. Plus he's an easy cut for SB in some matches... Also I may be biased because he won me 2 games...
- Prior to this tourney, I was sure of cutting the Oring but the 1 i had won me some games... I think i need to think about this some more...

[Fatal]

Next report from 16man tournament

i was piloting this list:
G/W Loamed D&T:


4 Temple Garden
4 Wasteland
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Savannah
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Maze of Ith
2 Karakas
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Forest
1 Plains

4 Aether Vial

2 Oblivion Ring

2 Life from the Loam

4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Mother of Runes
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Mangara of Corondor
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Terravore
4 Leonin Arbiter

SB: 1 Sword of Fire and Ice
SB: 3 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Ghostly Prison
SB: 1 Choke
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Stoneforge Mystic
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Null Rod



Round 1 vs Affinity ( I knew there will be affinity in my meta but didn't suspect that there will be 2 affinities, this one was second one).

He win the roll
G1 - I keep good hand with StP, Wasteland and Loam this should stop him for a while. He started with Ornitopter land and Drums. I sworded Ornitopter, then waste his land on second turn (good for me because he drew carnial plating). After some loam+waste loop i landed Tabernacle and gg.

Side out: 4 leonin arbiter, 3 mother of runes (didn't saw any thing like Master of Etherium)
Side in: 1 Null Rod, 1 Umezawa's Jitte, 2 Stoneforge Mystic, 1 Enlightened Tutor, 1 Krosan Grip, 1 Sword of Fire and Ice

G2 Was fast.. second turn null rod with krosan grip in hand, even with dream hand from affnity he just pushed for 6 then I Krosan his last attacker.

2-0

Round 2 vs CB Bant

This MU was favorable but statistics lies when sb. draw as vampiric tutor mode on.

I won the roll

G1 I keep good hand with Vial, Mother, arbiter, and Qasali, wasteland, savannah and Temple garden. He FoWed first turn vial. Then fetch and pass. I played Arbiter to forced this daze but he just fetch for Tundra in respond and StP after resolve. He put in CB on table then pass. I played Wasteland(for daze backup) then Qasali to take of CB, he counter with blind top. I waste his tundra and keep him on one land. He didn't draw any land for next couple of runds but he just conter all threads with blind CB what was really lucky, he counter one more pridemage, 2 Oblivion rings and Mangara.. after all i was smashed by 2 goyfs..with Jace backup.

Side out: Tabernacle, Life from the Loam
Side in: Krosan Grip, Choke

G2 I keep good hand with Krosan, Vial, Mom and 2 goyfs and 2 lands. I started with Vial he FoWed. Then he played SDT and pass. I played Mom and pass he untap and played CB. I Krosan grip it at the end of next round. Then land Goyfs to start beating. Then he played Explosives for 1 and pass. Next Goyf get spell snare. He blow up Mom then StP last goyf. Game was quite exiting but after i draw 3 lands in row I lost control on table with next CB and gg.

0-2

Round 3 Against Landstill U/w

I scout him in first round so i knew what's he playing.

I win the roll.

G1 He mull to 5.. fast beating was gg not worth describing, just few goyfs with mom back up.

Side in: 3 Goddeck Teeg, Choke, Enlightened Tutor
Side out: 3 StP, Maze, Tabernacle.

G2 He started with fetch, and pass i open with vial and it resolve (after game he said that he take off FoWs for more and more removal (Wrath of Gods, 4 StP, 3 Path to Exile, 2 Humility), I kept Goddeck on hand and resolve Mom he didn't kill her. On his 4th turn he put Elisabeth and starting beat with Mishras at the end of turn I put Goddeck from vial, then Oblivion Ring his Elisabeth and it was gg. then i starting loaming and left him on 2 lands and beating with Goddeck. Was easy.

2-0

Round 4 vs Spiral Tide
I was afraid of this MU specially first game, I knew that combo MU is bad.

He win the roll.

G1 He: Island, go. I kept the hand with arbiter (my only hope to slow him down) and mother. He started to combing in 3rd turn but arbiter was annoying (couldn't play merchant scroll) so he snap at middle of combo and that was his mistake Prot from Mom and he fizzle. I beat him before he re-full his hand.

Side in: 3 Goddeck Teeg, Ethersworn Canonist, Enlightened Tutor, Choke
Side out: Tabernacle, Maze if Ith, 4 Swords to plowshares (that could be mistake because, I could StP his cloud fearies when he snaping them).

G2 Mull to 6 still can't find hate vs combo only arbiter slow down. Again he made mistake with fetch (didn't respond) he Fizzle on turn 2 then discard from ideas unbound.

This was his first try with spiral so he didn't play it very good.

Round 5 - U/g/r Threshold again good MU

G1: I push him with Goyfs and waste his red source on table he didn't play basics.. then vial and mangara lock.

Side in: Choke, Sword of Fire and Ice
Side out: Tabernacle, Mangara

G2: He tempo my with Submarge and 3 goyfs after bolt first turn Mom. I kept poor hand - bad decision.

G3: I race with him with goyfs feed from his spells then quarter/loam lock.

Top4 I face again CB Bant and again lose 1-2. Once I lock him with loam/arbiter after 3 FoWs in first 3 turns other 2 games was very long and didn't remember them good but CB player had really good hands and I still drew lands..

Conclusion: I think second Krosan Grip is needed on sb. think about take off Prison but its very useful vs tribals but on the other hand Stoneforge Mystic with swords/jittes works there very well so probably i take it off. It useful also vs Belcher/TES but Null Rod also is useful vs those MU.

[FieryBalrog]

Black & Green & Taxes made top 8 of Indianapolis, let's see how it does. Still has Mangara/Karakas and mom and Mystic, so the 'taxes' bit is still here. That's like the third major tournament in a month that "_____ & Taxes" has made top 8.

[LegacyDan]

It seems more like people are just splashing Mangara in various archtype nowadays. Dead Guy and Taxes. The Rock and Taxes. I wonder what the next one will look like?

[zpikduM]

It seems more like people are just splashing Mangara in various archtype nowadays. Dead Guy and Taxes. The Rock and Taxes. I wonder what the next one will look like?

Bolt and Taxes, Brainstorm and Taxes, also coming soon is Storm and Taxes.

[Fatal]

Be serious, Mangara is very splashable since Vial allow to dodge his hard 1WW cost.. I wouldn't be surprised if we see "Merfolks & Taxes" with StP Standstill and Mangaras.. almost all lords are for 3..

for formal here is the link to Rock Style

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=36643

[_erbs_]

Next report from 16man tournament

i was piloting this list:
G/W Loamed D&T:


4 Temple Garden
4 Wasteland
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Savannah
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Maze of Ith
2 Karakas
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Forest
1 Plains

4 Aether Vial

2 Oblivion Ring

2 Life from the Loam

4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Mother of Runes
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Mangara of Corondor
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Terravore
4 Leonin Arbiter

SB: 1 Sword of Fire and Ice
SB: 3 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Ghostly Prison
SB: 1 Choke
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Stoneforge Mystic
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Null Rod



Hi, why not run Leonin Relic-Warder instead of pridemage to smoothen your mana base. Is leonin arbiter worth the slot main deck seeing your still ang aggro deck taxing your opponents lands seems weak when your up against mono decks like merfs or gobs. The old DT has lots of evasion and uses equips to finish off the game.

[Fatal]

Pridemage destroy and feed goyfs. Leonin Relic-Warder is similar to O-rings but when removal is much more common than enchantment effect it's not worth. Also my meta isn't tribal oriented rather combo/control, that's why there is Arbiter MD. Like u see I have on SB equips and Stoneforge Mystics when faced Tribal's or mono-colored deck with few fetchlands.

[FieryBalrog]

It seems more like people are just splashing Mangara in various archtype nowadays. Dead Guy and Taxes. The Rock and Taxes. I wonder what the next one will look like?

Well, it's more like people are taking the D&T archetype and splashing green, or junk or deadguy. Because you don't "splash" vial + mom + mangara + mystic + Karakas into the Rock; that's just a new archetype. This came up between the commentators, where Sullivan thought it was more like the Rock and Van Lunen pointed out that this runs 24 creatures + vial vs Rock's 12 creatures. Vial is a particular engine, and Vial married to those cards is a particular archetype.

[LegacyDan]

Well, it's more like people are taking the D&T archetype and splashing green, or junk or deadguy. Because you don't "splash" vial + mom + mangara + mystic + Karakas into the Rock; that's just a new archetype. This came up between the commentators, where Sullivan thought it was more like the Rock and Van Lunen pointed out that this runs 24 creatures + vial vs Rock's 12 creatures. Vial is a particular engine, and Vial married to those cards is a particular archetype.

You see, this is what gets me. The Rock used to be a deck that was heavily creature based, thats why it was called The Rock (and his millions). Nowadays it looks nothing like what it should. I guess what I am trying to say is I hate it when decks get changed so much and the same old name stays around, a deck changes with time, so should its name.

/rant

Anyway, I look forward to seeing this new hybrid and (hopefully) reading a tourney report from its pilot.

EDIT: Why is "taxes" even in the name of that deck? The only MB difference from a lot of GBw lists I have seen is the inclusion of the Mangara package. A lot of other lists fun Mom nowadays, as well as others including the Stoneforge package. I am more and more interested on his choice in calling it Taxes instead of Rock and Junk, or Maverick and Junk.

[FieryBalrog]

I don't know of any mainstream GBW decks that run vial, mom or even SFM, let alone mangara. The Brad Nelson-esque Rock is nothing like that. (yea, I know similar decks existed before, just a point of reference).

[CorpT]

I don't know of any mainstream GBW decks that run vial, mom or even SFM, let alone mangara. The Brad Nelson-esque Rock is nothing like that. (yea, I know similar decks existed before, just a point of reference).

You should check out the latest results from the SCG (http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/deckshow.php?t[T3]=3&deck_name[0]&event_ID&feedin&start_date=2011-02-06&end_date=2011-02-06&city&state&country&start&finish&exp&p_first&p_last&simple_card_name[1]&simple_card_name[2]&simple_card_name[3]&simple_card_name[4]&simple_card_name[5]&w_perc=0&g_perc=0&r_perc=0&b_perc=0&u_perc=0&a_perc=0&comparison[1]=%3E%3D&comparison[2]=%3E%3D&comparison[3]=%3E%3D&comparison[4]=%3E%3D&comparison[5]=%3E%3D&card_qty[1]=1&card_qty[2]=1&card_qty[3]=1&card_qty[4]=1&card_qty[5]=1&card_name[1]&card_name[2]&card_name[3]&card_name[4]&card_name[5]&sb_comparison[1]=%3E%3D&sb_comparison[2]=%3E%3D&sb_card_qty[1]=1&sb_card_qty[2]=1&sb_card_name[1]&sb_card_name[2]&card_not[1]&card_not[2]&card_not[3]&card_not[4]&card_not[5]&order_1=finish&order_2&limit=25&action=Show+Decks).

[FieryBalrog]

You should check out the latest results from the SCG (http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/deckshow.php?t[T3]=3&deck_name[0]&event_ID&feedin&start_date=2011-02-06&end_date=2011-02-06&city&state&country&start&finish&exp&p_first&p_last&simple_card_name[1]&simple_card_name[2]&simple_card_name[3]&simple_card_name[4]&simple_card_name[5]&w_perc=0&g_perc=0&r_perc=0&b_perc=0&u_perc=0&a_perc=0&comparison[1]=%3E%3D&comparison[2]=%3E%3D&comparison[3]=%3E%3D&comparison[4]=%3E%3D&comparison[5]=%3E%3D&card_qty[1]=1&card_qty[2]=1&card_qty[3]=1&card_qty[4]=1&card_qty[5]=1&card_name[1]&card_name[2]&card_name[3]&card_name[4]&card_name[5]&sb_comparison[1]=%3E%3D&sb_comparison[2]=%3E%3D&sb_card_qty[1]=1&sb_card_qty[2]=1&sb_card_name[1]&sb_card_name[2]&card_not[1]&card_not[2]&card_not[3]&card_not[4]&card_not[5]&order_1=finish&order_2&limit=25&action=Show+Decks).

lol.
well, I appreciate the irony.


(scroll up)

[JACO]

Hey guys, the Junk and Taxes that placed 3rd at SCG Indy Open was played by Brian Fisher, playing a copy of the deck I created and wrote about in my last Instant Analysis article on EC here:
http://www.eternal-central.com/?p=1388

Fisher and I tested and updated the deck slightly in the couple of days leading up to Indy. Thoughtseize and Confidant are awesome in the deck, and are totally worth the splash. Whoever said Black isn't worth it is sorely mistaken.

Expect me to write about this deck on EC for one of my Focus On Legacy articles, and expect an interview with Fisher about his performance with the deck.

[Justin]

I had read your article before SCG and thought of it when I saw the Fisher list from Indy. I didn't know that you worked with him on the deck. I know you must feel great about the results. Nice article, by the way. I look forward to reading your update.

Also, how did you find the four Ethersworn Canonist in the sideboard? I was thinking that Leyline of Sanctity might be a better choice. Leyline comes down on turn zero as opposed to turn two. Canonist might also slow you down, as the deck runs a lot of nonartifact spells.

[JACO]

I had read your article before SCG and thought of it when I saw the Fisher list from Indy. I didn't know that you worked with him on the deck. I know you must feel great about the results. Nice article, by the way. I look forward to reading your update.

Also, how did you find the four Ethersworn Canonist in the sideboard? I was thinking that Leyline of Sanctity might be a better choice. Leyline comes down on turn zero as opposed to turn two. Canonist might also slow you down, as the deck runs a lot of nonartifact spells.Yeah Fisher is my main playtest partner at the moment, so we share a lot of technology. We both really liked the deck, and I was split between playing it and a Scapeshift deck, which I ended up playing instead.

Leyline of Sanctity is cool, but I wouldn't play a singleton of it; it's either a 4 or 0 of to me. At least with Ethersworn Canonist you can Vial it in or cast it easier if drawn naturally. Canonist is better against random Legacy decks like Elves, whereas both Leyline and Canonist suck against something like Show and Tell or the Forgemaster MUD.

[Joe_C]

I think I've found a blend I'm happy with. I keep my 1'drops at 10 and gain stonecloaker and the new bears:

11 plains
4 karakas
3 wasteland
4 rishadan port

4 mother of runes
4 Serra avenger
4 flickerwisp
3 mangara
2 jotun grunt
2 goldmeadow harrier
2 stonecloaker
3 stoneforge mystic
1 leonin relic warder
1 phyrexian revoker
4 swords to plowshares
4 aether vial
1 SoFI
1 SoLS
1 jitte
1 oblivion ring

Sb:

2 Phyrexian revoker
1 leonin relic warder
1 stoneforge mystic
1 wheel of sun and moon
1 relic of progentius
1 aura of silence
2 condemn
4 enlightened tutor
1 ratchet bomb
1 ethersworn canonist

[lebarion]

@Joe_C: Why do you still stick with Stonecloaker? Metagame reason? I tested a similar version recently (-2 Stonecloaker, +1 Leonin Relic-Warder, +1 Phyrexian Revoker) but I found it to be too much unfocused, despite of being versatile.

@All: Is there already a general conclusion on Leonin Relic-Warder and Phyrexian Revoker? Do they worth maindeck slots? If so, what to take out?

[Finn]

@Joe_C, I really like the idea of your 10 1-drop version. I am sure you know that I think this deck is constantly in need of a suitable 1-drop to supplement Mom and Vial. That said, except in Emrakul-infested metagames, I have lost my faith in Goldmeadow Harrier. Also, with only one copy of both Warder and Revoker you are going to have a difficult time testing them. There is not much library manipulation, so why not 3 or 4 of each until you get a feel for them?

@lebarion, it is going to be at minimum a few more weeks until we know which, if either of these guys is going to be worthwhile. My current inclination is to make room in the sb for 3 or 4 Warders and to keep 2 Revokers in the main with another in the board. Relic-Warder is only for non-green builds and is a bit hard on the manabase even then.

@all, the discussion for this deck at Salvation (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=50057) is somewhat more developed than this one and the OP is far better.

[Joe_C]

@Joe_C, I really like the idea of your 10 1-drop version. I am sure you know that I think this deck is constantly in need of a suitable 1-drop to supplement Mom and Vial. That said, except in Emrakul-infested metagames, I have lost my faith in Goldmeadow Harrier. Also, with only one copy of both Warder and Revoker you are going to have a difficult time testing them. There is not much library manipulation, so why not 3 or 4 of each until you get a feel for them?

@lebarion, it is going to be at minimum a few more weeks until we know which, if either of these guys is going to be worthwhile. My current inclination is to make room in the sb for 3 or 4 Warders and to keep 2 Revokers in the main with another in the board. Relic-Warder is only for non-green builds and is a bit hard on the manabase even then.

@all, the discussion for this deck at Salvation (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=50057) is somewhat more developed than this one and the OP is far better.

There are so many decks that win by attacking harrier still serves a strong purpose, at least for me anyway. He is generally the first to come out against some decks, but he holds the opponent at bay for quite some time.

I just added stonecloaker to my list, he is more or less another tricks enabled, plus the evasion and wisp effect with warder is pretty snazzy. I haven't been displeased with him as a two of yet.

Edit: stonecloaker is proving to be more situational than I would like. Going to drop them for another oblivion ring maindeck and harrier #3

[zpikduM]

New list below:

4 Marsh Flats
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
3 Karakas
3 Plains
2 Arid Mesa
1 Swamp

4 Mother of Runes
4 Serra Avenger
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Flickerwisp
3 Mangara of Corondor
1 Isamaru, Hound of Konda

4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
4 Bitterblossom
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte

SB:

4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Vindicate
3 Tormod's Crypt

2 Open slots
1 Sword of ______________

Little bit of explaination:
Bitterblossom is so good with equipment. Not even close.
>>>>Couple of hours later, I booted out the Dark Confidants, and upped Bitterblossom to 4. Bitterblossom, every time I've had one is a game win.
Sword of Feast and Famine is something I board in vs Countertop. Why? Most their creatures are green, and the constant discard is very relevant to a control deck.
>>>>I'm still tossing between Sword of Body and Mind and Sword of Feast and Famine. Both are good under a Countertop, and the U/G Sword is really good under a standstill.
Duress is there for combo. However, these could easily be Phyrexian Revoker naming LED. More testing has to be done on this.
>>>>Phyrexian Revoker > Duress. Easily. Naming LED turns off one of their primary combo enablers due to the Hellbent clause on Infernal Tutor. It hurts them really really bad.
>>>>Removal of Volrath's Stronghold due to the lessening number of actual creatures in my deck, and susceptibility to wasteland. In addition, in playtesting it felt winmore.
>>>>Removal of Dark Confidant. Why? It was killing me. Really badly. Some games I'd go on lucky streaks and get lands off the top every time, and others I'd get a string of 3 CMC, and subsequently die. In addition, it just attracts so much removal/counterspells that I never usually see one on the board anyway.

[AggroSteve]

with only 4x thoughtseize and 3 duress (maybe extirpates) you will not be winning any combo-match, if you are counting on discard for the combo-matchup there should be about 10 to 12 discard spells, and even then its a close call.

i would allways suggest silence/orim's chant, aethersworn canonist, leyline of sanctity, if you really insist on fighting combo

btw. i really like bitterblossom in this list, an yes its just awesome with equipments

the other thing i do not like in the sideboards are the engineered plagues just as a 2-of, and i do not think you will need any oblivion rings, plus vindicate would always be better(in every situation except emrakul is on the field)

[Raptor_]

Hey guys, the Junk and Taxes that placed 3rd at SCG Indy Open was played by Brian Fisher, playing a copy of the deck I created and wrote about in my last Instant Analysis article on EC here:
http://www.eternal-central.com/?p=1388

Fisher and I tested and updated the deck slightly in the couple of days leading up to Indy. Thoughtseize and Confidant are awesome in the deck, and are totally worth the splash. Whoever said Black isn't worth it is sorely mistaken.

Expect me to write about this deck on EC for one of my Focus On Legacy articles, and expect an interview with Fisher about his performance with the deck.

I really lika the deck and I'm looking forward to reading the article about it. One thing that I have been thinking about is what to play if you have both Aether Vial and Thoughtseize in your starting hand in game one on the play. When you don't know what deck you are facing. I'm leaning towards Aether Vial to get your acceleration going. And to get the most out of AV. Thoughtseize turn two is still good and most deck dont do very broken turn one plays. Whats you tought about this?

[mrjumbo03]

If i was to hypothetically play this, I'd go thoughtseize first... that way you can make sure that the coast is clear for your vial...

[Penguinizer]

I did fairly badly at a local tournament today. I went 2-3. Here's a quick run-down. I had a basic build with 3 Goldmeadow Harriers and a tutor toolbox SB.

Dredge: 2-1. I lose game 1 as expected. Game 2 I get a Turn 1 Enlightened Tutor into a Tormod's Crypt followed by a Wheel of the Sun and Moon. Game 3 I StP his Putrid Imp and he doesn't find a second discard outlet in time.

Monoblack: 0-2. I fail to get a threat to stick game 1. Game 2 I draw 1 Swords to Plowshares, 1 Aether Vial and 7-8 lands.

UG Show and Tell: 0-2. Game 1 he gets a quick Prog. Game 2 I side out StP even though I knew he would side in Goyfs. I punted it hard.

Goblins: 0-2. I manage to stall out early game, but I never get any good threat and get overwhelmed both times.

Elves: 2-0. I draw removal for his mana elves and he draws lands.


One thing I noticed with my build is that I never got enough threats out fast enough and was stuck on the defensive. I think switching to GW will fix this at least partially.

[LegacyDan]

Ugh, I went from to a pair of tourneys this week and only went 2-2. I am considering Relic-Warders for the SB, but I haven't been to happy with Phyrexian Revoker. It could just be 2 bad showings in a row, so I am not giving up on them just yet.

I will say this though, I have had a couple of games where Sword of Feast and Famine have connected and they were GREAT. The discard is meh, but the untapping of my lands just wrecks.



@all, the discussion for this deck at Salvation (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=50057) is somewhat more developed than this one and the OP is far better.

... some of us can't post on MTGS anymore....

[Fatal]

Quick report from the 17man tournament. I played my old list (writed upper).

Only change was in sideboard ghostly prison out, basilisk collar in.

R1 vs Dark Horizons

I won the roll

G1 He tried to be aggressive, waste my first land, them StP my Mom. Them hymn to tourach drop loam and maze of ith. I dredge and waste his duals then lock with arbiter gg KotR ended the game.

Side in: Krosan Grip
Side out: Oblivion Ring

I was afraid Deed.

G2 He mull to 5.. few lands, but gravehate from his side. I ended game fast with 2 pridemages and arbiter wasting his green mana, and StP his confidant.

R2 MUD Forgemaster Combo (my friend)

I win the roll

G1 He kept poor hand, i had Mangara/Karakas look quite fast.

Side in: Null Rod, E.Tutor, Krosan Grip, Umezawa's Jitte, SoFI, 2 Stoneforge Mystic
Side out: 4 Leonin Arbiter, 3 Mom

G2 I kept hand with second turn null rod but without any removal, he played second turn (i was on draw) Wurmcoil with Greaves, couldn't win that.

G3 Side the same, I kept great hand: 1 mangaras, Krosan, 2 StP, Pridemage, karakas, dual draw next land. Overkill.

R3 Zoo - ID We had 3-0 both also my friend so we take Draw (don't want to play against Zoo).

R4 CB Bant - Very good pilot he won almost half of this tournaments (this one was XXXI)

I loss the roll

G1 he had sec turn CB but without backup. I dodge daze, and played Qasali, but instead of blow CB i started to be aggressive and started to beat him with him. And kept his mana on 3 lands with StP backup if he put any blocker. At the and i blow up CB then put KotR and Mom GG.

Side in: Krosan Grip, Bojuka Bog
Side out: Tabernacle, 1 Life from the loam

G2 Was similar to first but with Krosan backup. No blockers he FoWed twice Qasali.

R5 Dredge - was little surprised about it.

G1 He won on second turn i only StP (drew from top) on Ichorid. He terapy my blind 2 x StP, then again from Amoeba my KotR.

Side in: Bojuka Bog, Tormod's Crypt, E.Tutor, 3 Goddeck Teeg
Side out: 4 Leonin Arbiter, 2 Qasali Pridemage.

G2: Mull to 5 didn't find any hate :/ gg on second turn he dredge manually to 3 bridges and ichorid in only 6 cards.

In top4

I was paired with Zoo (from ID)

He win the roll

G1 Lavamancer, them Nacatl and burning all my low defense creatures. I was fast beated.

Side in:2 Stoneforge Mystic, SoFI, Umezawa's Jitte, Basilisk Collar
Side out: 2 Mangaras, 2 Oblivion Rings, Tabernacle

G2 I made big mistake, i waste his only red mana and loamed to waste again but he just put an other land and put KotR i play. I was screwed on 3rd land. I should put Stoneforge mystic with Collar..

Breakthrough after playing.

Zoo MU is bad its about 40 % I have to work on it. Specially that build vs who I was playing had Searing Blaze which was quite annoying.

[FieryBalrog]

Looks like D&T just won the Jupiter Games Lotus tourney, which is a pretty damn competitive tournament. Interested to see the decklist, sounds like it was mono-white.

[Fry]

The list I ran at Jupiter yesterday is as follows and it was 94 people

4 aether vial
3 flickerwisp
2 goldmeadow harrier
3 jotun grunt
3 leonin arbiter
3 mangara of corondor
4 mother of runes
2 phyrexian revoker
4 serra avenger
3 stoneforge mystic
1 sword of fire and ice
1 sword of light and shadow
4 swords to plowshares
1 umezawa's jitte
12 plains
4 karakas
3 rishadan port
4 wasteland

side board
1 jotun grunt
3 leyline of sanctity
2 oblivion ring
3 wing shards
3 wheel of sun and moon
2 phyrexian revoker
1 sword of feast and famine

[Oxmo39]

@Fry : Congratz for this incredible result !! Can we hope to read a report..? or just what were your MU's ?
I'm glad too see a successful list with arbiters ! good job man ;-)

[AggroSteve]

@ Fry: how did you feel about the maindeck revokers, and about harriers (i am dissapounted in them lately), and for what matchups did you use sword of feast and famine?

i see you did not use any oblivion rings maindeck, and even cut one flickerwisp, how does this come? (i know oblivion ring is the weakest card in the deck but flickerwisp?)

[Fatal]

waiting for good report, did u faced any kind of Zoo ?

[Fry]

Ufortunately I didn't take any notes so there won't be much of a report, though I will thow in some of the juicier tid bits I recall.

However I did make an opponent pay 6 mana to use an expedition map.

Personally I think that the Revokers were my MVP's of the deck, the shut down jace, top, vial, lavamancer,and all sorts od other randomness you may come across.

Unortunately the harriers didn't do a whole lot for me(though they were indeed nice) because I didn't see them often and when I did see them I already had the game in the bag, or it was too little too late.

With cutting the O-Rings to the side and with mangara the only other real combo with the flickerwisp, 3 seemed to be a better number to me somehow, though at one point I did remove a goyf with one then swung for the kill at a jace.

The sword of feast and famine(personal choice over body and mind)was nice since I was ablke to untap my lands and force ccontrol decks to discard before I played spells.

I also dodged a bullet in round 4 when I played against belcher, he went off turn 1 in game one, game two he got ten goblins too late instead of more since I vialed in a revoker in response to him playing LED and my 4 creautures already in play was too much for him to overcome. In game three he mulliganed to 5 and only drew excell, not bussiness.

I did not play against a traditional zoo list but against a jund deck that had discard and zoo like aspects(unfortunately it was a friend of mine, the one who drove out there, I got him a guru plains with some of my winnings)


I faced two Goblin decks in the top 8, in the quarters and semis. In the quarters game one went by quickly, I started with a plains and vial, he had a port and vial, i played a wasteland on his port on my turn and played a mom, followed by another mom from the vial at the end of his turn in which he got a lack from the vial but no more land. I named vial on my next turn when I played a revoker, and he scooped up his cards and we went to game two.
Game two he led with a lackey, I followed with a mom. his turn two he attacks with the lackey so I trade with it, then he plays another lackey. my turn two I get another mom and a vial. skipping some parts I don't quite recall the game ended with me having 3 revokers in play naming ridiculous cards, a harrier equiped with a sword of fire and ice and a jitte with three counters since I removed one a the end of his turn to kill his only creature, and on my turn I remove all three counters to make the harrier a 9/9, swing with it and the 3 revokers for 15 and SoFI does the last 2 damage for total of the 17 I needed to advance to the semis.

the semis went fairly quickly as well since I kept a wasteland, vial, mom, plains, avenger, and some other things I don't recall and he conceded onto game 2 after a couple of short turns with him only having a port for mana since I blew up his badlands.
game 2 was much closer but I had an avenger in play with a SoFI equiped and a wing shards in hand when he attacked on his last turn.

the Finals was againt the only deck I lost to in the Swiss, 12 post eldrazi... I remembered that the games were fairly close in the swiss and since he wanted the poiints to qualify for the invitational in a couple months I offered him the points and the mox jet if I got the lotus, he refused so we playe it out. I got game one since I was more prepared this time than last, but it was still close. game two he got a kozilek in play and I only saw 1 wasteland and 1 port that game and he hand candelabra of tawnos in play and I had no revoker. Though I did sowrds the revoker and a primevalk titan and he gained 26 life that game and I still had him down to 9 when it was over. Game three I kept a plains, wasteland, wasteland, vial, mom, revoker, and avenger hand. in the first two rounds he plays cloudpost and I blow them up befire they get to unntap, and since I went first I had the vial going from the start and just kept swinging for the win.

after the winning game my friend who had the jund deck ran over with massive congrats and my other friends were also quite proud. Since I actually borrowd the deck with a some modifications of my own to include the revoker for instance I traded the lotus in for $500 and made the deck for myself except for the ports which they were unfortunatelly out of and I made the deck a lot more shiny. I also got a few foils I didn't have and a guru plains for my friend who I borrowed the deck from.

[mrjumbo03]

How were the arbiters for you? I played them as a 4-of until MBS was released... but I'm thinking of bringing them back in...

[Penguinizer]

I did not like the Arbiters. I'll try 3x Revoker main for giggles at some point. I have too much room when I remove Harriers.

[Fry]

there are a lot of decks that search the library, mainly the fetches which most decks have and the arbiters slow them down to the point of giving you an extra turn while they have to pay to search, so they pretty much slow your opponent down enough they can really give you an edge to work with, and if they don't help against the matchup (which I always kept them in even against belcher they stop land grant) you can always replace them with something that works better from your sideboard

[Fatal]

Anyone tried Crimson Acolyte vs Zoo ?

[AggroSteve]

he looks just terrible, if anyone has problems with zoo, then use forge tender, allready has pro-red, and if you sacrifice him it gives pro-red to another creature, and you will use the effect mostly in situations when you want to equip one of your guys

btw. did anyone try mirran crusader? if yes, what do you think about him?

[from Cairo]

Anyone tried Crimson Acolyte vs Zoo ?

I agree with AggroSteve. Burrenton Forge-Tender is strictly better. It has so much wider application:

- comes down turn 1 to block Lackey
- blows out Bridge from Below
- protects from Firespout or Price of Progress
- pairs with SoL&S to give an out to Progenitus

Probably a handful of other cases I'm not thinking of, but it's definitely a stronger card and fills a casting cost that the deck has a harder time finding competative creatures for.

[perm]

it's obviously not strictly better, but I agree, it is a superior choice

[4eak]

If Zoo is what you are gunning for (which seemed the point of Fatal's post), I think Perimeter Captain is better than both Forge-tender and acolyte. Captain has even out-performed additional removal for me in this matchup, in part because it usually gains some life and makes burn less problematic (which removal doesn't do so well). It stalls nicely and blocks green creatures (and often lives) which is an important part of beating Zoo. Obviously, Captain is only worth boarding in against Zoo and Goblins, and it isn't as versatile as Forge-tender against Bridge, Burn (I still see it once in a while), and very rare corner cases like an out to Progenitus.



peace,
4eak

[Whippoorwill]

I agree with AggroSteve. Burrenton Forge-Tender is strictly better. It has so much wider application:

- blows out Bridge from Below

Unless they're casting Firestorm or have Zealot in play I fail to see how it blows out Bridge since you need a red source to target in order to use it. And if Zealot is on the board I doubt they care about Bridge at that point.

[4eak]

It doesn't target. You can sac it at any time you have priority.


peace,
4eak

[Whippoorwill]

Ah, apologies then. I should have even realized it doesn't say "target" as well. Thanks for the correction.

[Finn]

Perimeter Captain is indeed a very effective thwart against Zoo. And we are certainly talking about the w cards only. But since it only comes in against Zoo, it being a wall, it is not as good a choice as BFT. That one has other applications as has been pointed out. Goldmeadow Harrier is broader still. For me, I have decided not to have any creature in that spot for now, instead using extra removal as it is nearly always useful at he same cost.

[4eak]

Perimeter Captain doesn't come in just against Zoo, but also against Goblins.

As I said, it is very limited in its scope. Presumably, only a few metagames would be interested in using him. If you were in a Zoo and Goblins heavy metagame, I could certainly see it. For the general metagame, I certainly am not recommending him.

I've given up on trying to find a 1cc card (not just creatures) to play in addition to Vial/MoR/StP in the general metagame. It would be nice to find more 1cc's, but even cards like Condemn have been very poor for me.


peace,
4eak

[AggroSteve]

i have to agree with 4eak, i have the same problem, no 1cc card right now seems worth it in this slot

i was allways underwhelmed by forge tender, because he is just sooooo tiny and has its uses only in specific metas/matchups
now i am underwhelmed by harriers as well,.... lately i even thought of adding isamaru again... not the best idea but he has some synergy with the deck, even though with combat damage not using the stack he simply sucks

condemn and path to exile come to mind as well but i dislike both.... but path to exile only for being antisynergistic


to perimeter captain... i thought of him but he is really only usefull against zoo, since goblins should not be our worst nightmare^^, therefor i opted to suggest BFT, even though i do not like him myself...... its a metacall, and for those who want a creature/card for a generel meta, i think we have to invent one ourself, or did anyone find a useable card for this slot and 1cc

otherwise i think i will cut 1 oblivion ring and the 2 harriers and put 3 revokers in their place, it surely is a better use of the place

and again my question from the previous page: did anyone test mirran crusader, is he worth some slots? or is he just a cutie but good for nothing?

[Zork]

It has probably been suggested already, but would Icatian Javelineers fit that slot? He pings out X/1s and trades with X/2s on the block, while also killing himself likeBFT against dredge.

[4eak]

otherwise i think i will cut 1 oblivion ring and the 2 harriers and put 3 revokers in their place, it surely is a better use of the place

I've been testing the full 4x Revokers, I'm impressed. It is very rare that you have nothing relevant to name. The body is awesome, and being Vial-able is absolutely amazing. He's a card that nobody sees coming -- I'm not sure how good he would be if people anticipated him.


peace,
4eak

[lebarion]

Talking about the 1cc slot, did anyone try Rhys the Redeemed, maybe as a 1 or 2-of? He has an interesting ability, and Karakas can protect him, even though this doesn't seem that useful.

@4eak: I'm also testing Revoker as a 4-of and the first results are promising, protecting my equipment against Qasali, my team against Deed, messing opponent's Vial, Top, Jace, etc, etc. He is useful in almost every match, even to stop opponent's Vial if I do not see mine or after using mine a couple times.

[Finn]

Rhys is interesting, but is almost certainly a non-starter. It is a small, mana-intensive parity breaker. The deck is full of that already. And all the others are better at it.

Mirran Crusader is too expensive to be useful early and it is too fragile to be great late. That is also true of our other 3-mana critters, but they all have amazing disruption where he has none. Plus, it is win-more. Absolutely not what this deck needs.

Revoker has been pretty good for me. Sensei's Divining Top, Jace, Aether Vial, and Qasali Pridemage have been my most common calls. Top and Jace are just excellent. The Pridemages I have been calling are all in Zoo and this has not been an especially good interaction, but not terrible either I suppose. He burns them and all our other stuff gets burned anyway. The Vials are going to be interesting in the long run. I have drawn Aether Vials with Revoker naming it on the table and at other times I often want to call it when I dare not. That is when I want Revoker to be a Relic-Warder most. But mostly positive.

[eq.firemind]

My common Revoker targets are nonland mana sources like Noble Hierarch, Mox Diamond, Chrome Mox and Lion's Eye Diamond. In many matchups it felt like Rishadan Port that also beats for 2, can be vialed in and wears equipments. Also, the dude costs colorless mana and that's a huge advantage over Relic-Warden (you will not going to have a vial every game).
Plain awesome.

[raijinnfury]

Anyone have any thoughts on fitting in a few Sunstrike Legionnaire? He seems to fit the role of Goldmeadow Harrier, plus he often untaps multiple times in a turn (due to Flickerwisp/Karakas shenanigans) and he doesn't require you to pay mana to tap. He can't tap down a few of the regulars in Legacy, but I figure Mangara and Swords can take care of business there. He does cost 2 though, which the 2 slot seems a little tight right now with Stoneforge/Arbiter/Avenger/Revoker. He might be worth trying out as a 3-of. Thoughts?

[lebarion]

I believe Legionnaire could untap multiple times once or twice, then you'll hate it for not untapping, while your opponent's creature are attacking you.
I think I'd rather try to fit an Avenger en-Dal than a Sunstrike Legionnaire, but both seem underwhelming.

[FieryBalrog]

Here's why I like Mirran Crusader in the mono-white:
-he's an actual clock in a deck full of a lot of 1/1 and 1/2 dorks
-he's hard for 4c countertop to remove (just swords; jace bounce is terrible if you have a vial)
-he's ludicrous with equipment, making him an absolute must remove, and this deck runs a virtual 6-7 equips maindeck
-pro Goyf and Knight is very sweet
-problack is amazing in the random matchups vs Tempo Thresh, UBG landstill and other decks that rely on Ghastly Demise, Smother, GFTT, etc.

I don't play D&T myself, but I playtest against it extensively with a friend, and I find the equipment package to be the scariest thing to face down; not mangara lock, not mom, not even the scary port-waste. It's true that in a lot of situations where you can swing with an equip you are definitely winning, but not all of them. Crusader can dig out of just about any hole with an equip, which is not true for the others, and he's also easier to stick on the board.

[raijinnfury]

I believe Legionnaire could untap multiple times once or twice, then you'll hate it for not untapping, while your opponent's creature are attacking you.
I think I'd rather try to fit an Avenger en-Dal than a Sunstrike Legionnaire, but both seem underwhelming.

Avenger en-Dal doesn't really serve the same purpose though. I mean there are times when you want to tap down their guys even when they aren't attacking. Legionnaire can also clear the way so your piddly 2 or 3 power guys can get through for damage. He can also tap down utility creatures like Welder, Lavamancer, Metalworker, etc. during upkeeps when their effects can be less profitable. Plus Avenger costs 3 mana to activate, something this deck can't afford at times when spending mana on dudes that can't be Vialed in at that time or for equip costs. You can even Vial in a creature at attack step to untap him to tap their dude or set up surprise blocks.

If you can hit with SoLaS or SoFI, he can lock down board states, not to mention the fact that he can clear the way for you to hit more often to make him draw cards/bring back creatures to untap to lock down the board more.

I think you'll find that with all the shenanigans this deck tends to do with creatures entering play, even mid-late game it seems like he could lock down boards for a couple vital turns. Just seemed like a solid creature that fits roles that this deck needs at times; a way to push damage through. Plus his mana cost is light on white (1W), which helps his case even more (being that we run multiple colorless sources).

I don't know, I wouldn't necessarily write him off. People had the same reaction with the Boot Camp Soldiers build that was in the forums some time ago, but they found he was actually pretty good in a Legacy environment where everything costs 3 or less. I'll probably try him out the next time I play D+T at a tourney.

[colo]

Sunstrike Legionnaire used to be awesome in Soldier Aggro lists of a few months ago.

[4eak]

Mirran Crusader is a lot like Serra Avenger; he's a beast with equipment, sometimes getting up to 2 equipment triggers per round of turns (which Avenger occasionally will also do). SoFI makes him a god -- Pro 4 colors, and when he's not answered, it is 8 damage + 2 ping + 2 ping + 2 card draw. Sounds win-more, right? In fact, he's so good with equipment that he's closer to being a Progenitus than Avenger when equipped -- he does tend to win on the spot. It is almost combo-esque. It is worth testing just for the fun factor.

I'm not sure if he is necessary. He's won some games for me that nothing else could. Naturally being Pro green gives you an even larger edge against Goyf.dec. The choice, to me, is whether or not we will concentrate on making the deck better against decks which aren't already decent matchups. In metagames which are most ripe for DnT, he's everything you want him to be. For metagames which give DnT trouble, I prefer more disruptive cards for these slots.

I've also been on the side of the table facing Crusader -- I'm rarely pleased to see this card. It hits way too hard.


peace,
4eak

[CorpT]

There's something to be said for Pro-Firespout in Mirran Crusader.

[LegacyDan]

I haven't used him in Legacy, but I know he is a BEAST at the local FNM if he gets equiped.

[ChrisElrod]

Revoker has been pretty good for me. Sensei's Divining Top, Jace, Aether Vial, and Qasali Pridemage have been my most common calls. Top and Jace are just excellent. The Pridemages I have been calling are all in Zoo and this has not been an especially good interaction, but not terrible either I suppose.

I think I'd be more scared of grim lavamancer on average, or did zoo never draw one in your testing?
Naming grim seems like it would also be really good.
I think revoker sounds like it could be pretty good.

[zpikduM]

Mirran Crusader is a lot like Serra Avenger; he's a beast with equipment, sometimes getting up to 2 equipment triggers per round of turns (which Avenger occasionally will also do). SoFI makes him a god -- Pro 4 colors, and when he's not answered, it is 8 damage + 2 ping + 2 ping + 2 card draw. Sounds win-more, right? In fact, he's so good with equipment that he's closer to being a Progenitus than Avenger when equipped -- he does tend to win on the spot. It is almost combo-esque. It is worth testing just for the fun factor.

I'm not sure if he is necessary. He's won some games for me that nothing else could. Naturally being Pro green gives you an even larger edge against Goyf.dec. The choice, to me, is whether or not we will concentrate on making the deck better against decks which aren't already decent matchups. In metagames which are most ripe for DnT, he's everything you want him to be. For metagames which give DnT trouble, I prefer more disruptive cards for these slots.

I've also been on the side of the table facing Crusader -- I'm rarely pleased to see this card. It hits way too hard.


peace,
4eak

Give him Jitte, and in two attack phases they go 20 to 0.

[Uncoordinated]

Just wondering - where has the discussion about Scryb Ranger gone? Has Scryb largely been replaced by Goyf in terms of cmc? Lists running Harrier/Mom/KotR would obviously benefit most, but he is still a great creature that allows lots of fun things.

[Finn]

Just wondering - where has the discussion about Scryb Ranger gone? Has Scryb largely been replaced by Goyf in terms of cmc? Lists running Harrier/Mom/KotR would obviously benefit most, but he is still a great creature that allows lots of fun things.Lavamancers are a good target, and I certainly choose them at times. But I have three Grunts in the main and the fourth in the SB. They do a decent job of limiting the effectiveness of Lavamancers. Moreover, we have Mothers of Runes. If she comes out first she can pretty much shut down a Lavamancer until I can deal with it in some other way. Ah, sometimes it works out that way and sometimes nothing works. But the point is that there really is no other way to deal with Pridemages, while Lavamancers can be got around.

EDIT: I think that Scryb Ranger reeks of the Danger of Cool Things.

[lebarion]

Lavamancers are a good target, and I certainly choose them at times. But I have three Grunts in the main and the fourth in the SB. They do a decent job of limiting the effectiveness of Lavamancers. Moreover, we have Mothers of Runes. If she comes out first she can pretty much shut down a Lavamancer until I can deal with it in some other way. Ah, sometimes it works out that way and sometimes nothing works. But the point is that there really is no other way to deal with Pridemages, while Lavamancers can be got around.

EDIT: I think that Scryb Ranger reeks of the Danger of Cool Things.

I've tested Scryb Ranger in my Wg build, in the place of Flickerwisp, as they serve a similar purpose and Flickerwisp's WW cost is a little hard to get sometimes. It has some very interesting uses, like enabling mom and mangara to be used twice per turn. Many times I find Mangara to be too slow, and Scryb Ranger fixes it somehow.
Also, it is a game-winner versus merfolk, and good at blocking Rhox War Monks. The problem is that it is lackluster in many matches, like Zoo and Goblins.
I believe it deserves some slots, depending on your meta.

[Fry]

I've done a lot of testing and Leonin Arbiter as well as Phyrexian Revoker prove to amazing inclusions to the deck. I don't think Mirran Crusader is good enough for legacy, even if you are doing a mono white version like I run. There are already planty of cards that require 3 mana and with the non mono white builds out there the double white could be problematic at times and vials don't show up at the begining of every game.

[_erbs_]

Hello,
Im a long time lurker is DT threads but never posted since i don't have a playsets of karakas now i've gotten i wanted to build a Wg taxes. Here is my initial deck build. It doesn't have tricks or shenanigans as compared to mono w DT.

Comments and suggestions are welcome, thank you in advance.

Lands [21]
1 Forest
1 Gaea's Cradle
2 Plains
2 Karakas
4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Flooded Strand
1 Temple Garden

Creatures [28]
3 Mother of Runes
3 Noble Hierarch
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Serra Avenger
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Mangara of Corondor
2 Mirran Crusader
3 Knight of the Reliquary

Spells [11]
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

Sideboard Choices
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Cataclysm
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Aura of Silence
2 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Ghostly Prison
2 Pithing Needle
2 Null Rod

[LegacyDan]

I've done a lot of testing and Leonin Arbiter as well as Phyrexian Revoker prove to amazing inclusions to the deck. I don't think Mirran Crusader is good enough for legacy, even if you are doing a mono white version like I run. There are already planty of cards that require 3 mana and with the non mono white builds out there the double white could be problematic at times and vials don't show up at the begining of every game.

I used 3 Mirran Crusaders tonight in the slot that was previously 3 Kitchen Finks tonight. Must say, I LOVED using him. Nobody really gave a damn when he hit the field, until Crusader started coming for their face. Speaking of, split 1st for the 2nd week in a row, which makes me 4 of 5 in past weeks.

[Fatal]

Kitchen Finks had his bright side on Zoo MU, Mirran Crusader is still poor against them (even lavamancer can kill it..).

I testing new side against Zoo

I put in:

3 Path to Exile
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

I'm testing Path's because I'm playing with Arbiters, also good Zoo pilot will fetch for basics (3 basics so all of them basics).

[LegacyDan]

So Finks is better because of one matchup? If I was worried about Lavamancers I would not be playing a deck with: Flickerwisp, Mangara, Mom, and all the other goodies that die to shock.

Are you running Wastelands and Ports? If so, putting mana denial alongside cards that give them lands seems like a really bad choice.

[Fatal]

I played with Wasteland and Ghostly Quarter, remember that gives them land is rather not always, every good Zoo pilot facing Wastelands goes to basics, then after fetching all of them u have clear way. PtE is for fatties which are quite problematic (Goyfs/KotR). I can see that Mirrian Crusader is good on in one MU U/b/g Thresh nothing more.. I used 2 Terravores in this slot they're much better, they always bigger than opponent KotR's and have tremple so in mirror they shines bacuase even protection don't save u.

Btw Finks also helps in Burn/Boros MU which isn't so good.

[Finn]

A Zoo pilot who fetches basics as a rule is not a good one. When they do that I tap their green with Ports

[timmycolossus]

Mirran crusader is good but from my experience he is a win more card. Once again though he is good but I do not know if he has a real place in mono D&T.

[Whippoorwill]

I played a W/g version last night at our weekly tournament. 13 players.

Lands - 22
4 Plains
1 Forest
4 Savannah
2 Horizon Canopy
3 Karakas
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath

Creatures - 26
4 Mother of Runes
2 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Serra Avenger
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mangara of Corondor
2 Flickerwisp
2 Mirran Crusader

Artifacts - 6
4 Aether Vial
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

Instants - 4
4 Swords to Plowshares

Enchantments - 2
2 Sylvan Library

Sideboard
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Krosan Grip
3 Path to Exile
2 Jotun Grunt
2 Cataclysm (last minute addition since I had 2 open spots and didn't know what to add.)
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Faerie Macabre

Round 1 vs. Junk/Rock (Budget version, no Goyfs)

Main thing worth note was game 2 where he only had a Swamp and a Top out after I Wasted one of his lands. I then Vial in a Revoker (naming Top) which shuts him out of the game.

1-0; 2-0

Round 2 vs. NO CounterTop
Game 1 we both mull, him to 5 and me to 4 keeping despite no land. I topdeck a land and eventually more from there and recover rather well. The main play worth noting was him having Counterbalance out and I cast a Mirran Crusader. He says it resolves then backtracks to reveal for Counterbalance which reveals a Trygon. If it wasn't a casual event I wouldn't have let him take it back. I end up dying to a Noble Hierarch when I made an error and attacked with my Knight with SoLaS on it which was chump blocked.

Game 2 the deck does what it does best and I have removal for all his threats til I kill him.

Game 3 was back and forth putting us both in top deck mode near the end. He gets mana flooded and I eventually get rid of his final creature and take the round shortly after. He never drew a Natural Order in any of the games.

2-0; 4-1

Round 3 vs. Deadguy Ale

Game 1 he was stuck on 2 Swamps for most of the game. He slowly kills himself with Bitterblossom while I speed it up with Avenger with SoLaS.

Game 2 he leads with a Plains and a turn 2 Scrubland and Bitterblossom. I Waste the Scrubland on my turn and he never draws another black source from there. SoLaS comes through again as does Revoker naming SoLaS which had had from Stoneforge.

3-0; 6-1

Round 4 vs. R/g Goblins

Intentional Draw to split 1st & 2nd. He didn't want to at first which I would have been fine with, but then I think he realized there was no reason not to since the prize difference was only +/-$5 from the split amount. We played it out anyways just to see.

3-0-1

Game 1 I made a play mistake with Flickerwisp. He played Tin Street Hooligan and I Vialed in Wisp to bounce my Vial in response to it being targeted instead of in response to it being cast which would have made him kill his own Vial. Ringleader gives him the card advantage and win.

Game 2 I have more removal now and SoFaI pretty much ends it for him.

Game 3 was more removal and Revoker locking out his Incinerators. We both end up in topdeck mode, but I have Library and take a hit for 4 twice to end the game.

Individual card thoughts:

Mirran Crusader - I agree with others that its a win-more card. The times I had it in play it was just a target and never had any effect other than them wasting a removal spell on it. I'll be cutting these.

Sylvan Library - Was great every time I had it as was to be expected. Kinda surprised I don't see it more often in the W/g builds.

Knight of the Reliquary - I'm torn between cutting these completely or cutting just 1. With 3 Karakas and Sylvan, I don't really see myself needing the land ability. And without evasion he just gets blocked by random crap. This is the main reason I went with Avenger over Goyf. If I cut all 4 of these, it'll be for Goyfs.

Flickerwisp - I like the 3/1 Flying body for a beater but the flicker ability never really did much for me so I'll probably cut these as well. Scryb Ranger seems interesting as a replacement since it would let me use Mangara or MoR twice a turn but I think there are better options to use. Would Aven Mindcensor be worth considering.

[_erbs_]

I played a W/g version last night at our weekly tournament. 13 players.
Individual card thoughts:

Mirran Crusader - I agree with others that its a win-more card. The times I had it in play it was just a target and never had any effect other than them wasting a removal spell on it. I'll be cutting these.

Sylvan Library - Was great every time I had it as was to be expected. Kinda surprised I don't see it more often in the W/g builds.

Knight of the Reliquary - I'm torn between cutting these completely or cutting just 1. With 3 Karakas and Sylvan, I don't really see myself needing the land ability. And without evasion he just gets blocked by random crap. This is the main reason I went with Avenger over Goyf. If I cut all 4 of these, it'll be for Goyfs.

Flickerwisp - I like the 3/1 Flying body for a beater but the flicker ability never really did much for me so I'll probably cut these as well. Scryb Ranger seems interesting as a replacement since it would let me use Mangara or MoR twice a turn but I think there are better options to use. Would Aven Mindcensor be worth considering.

I run a GW list aswell. I'd like to share my experience of those cards you mentioned.
• Library cantrips - i don't run any in my list maybe you could try sensei or mirri's guile as i think they are a much better choice over sylvan since you rarely use to take extra cards from sylvan.

• Kotr - i only run 3 bec of the following reasons:
a. not as big as other kotr's who runs tons of fetches so he would normally come out at 4/4 not bad.
b. if your opponent has lots of blockers his just a library filter or a way of fetching karakas or wasteland, etc.
c. needs a full turn to be effective.

• Flickerwisp - i dont run him bec i find his ability lack luster without an online vial set at 3. it can block anything.., without exalted triggers seems like a weak beater. At worse its a 2cc 3/1 flyer. But i run 4 serra avenger in its place.

• Mirran Sader - i run 2 of this, the right number for me is 3 more than it seems abit off. Its not a win more card for me its a card that will be dangerous later on if not dealt. Thats his role for me. his a decent blocker against zoo. When any equipment his the board and your opponent has no removal sader will wreak havoc once it get equipped on. For me if acts like a removal magnet is not bad as it could free up your other threats .

[luiz]

I am playing with Version B/W. I splash to black because de sidebord is very strong againg combos and I can use Bob in main deck doing more draws.

My list

Lands [21]
1 Swamp
5 Plains
3 Karakas
4 Scrublands
4 Marsh Flats
4 Wasteland


Creatures [26]
4 Dark Confidant (Bob)
4 Mother of Runes
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Serra Avenger
3 Leonin Relic-Warder
3 Mirran Crusade
3 Mangara of Corondor
2 Perimeter Captain

Spells [13]
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Senseis Divining Top

Sideboard Choices
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Tormod´s Crypt
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Null Rod
1 Chalice of the Void
2 Extirpate
2 Perish
3 Duress


I had a good performance against combos in second match and deck using green creatureas to beat. Mirran cruzader is fantastic when equiped and can kill a opponent in 2 rounds. This creature so block Goyf, Relicary, dont kill firespot (pro green) and with mother of runes in game dont die.

I trying improve sideboard and would like sugestions and coments.

Thanks

[timmycolossus]

Okay ... Maybe I will try him again. I got 3rd at the Jupiter games tourney back in January (22 2011) with this list

Land 22
4x savannah
4x windswept heath
2x horizon canopy
2x plains
1x flagstones of trokair
1x forest
4x wasteland

Creatures 27
4x mother of runes
4x tarmogoyf
4x qasali pridemade
3x sotneforge mystic
2x jotun grunt
3x gaddock teeg
3x mangara of corondor
4x knight of the reliquary

Spells 11
4x swords to plowshares
4x aether vial
1x umezawas jitte
1x Sword of fire and ice
1x sword of light and shadow

SB
3x krosan grip
3x burrenton-forge tender
3x orims chant
3x ethersworn canonist
2x pithing needle
1x jotun grunt


I am thinking if I play this deck again I will add the crusader because I think there will be even more green being played because of green sun zenith. But we will see I might just play the white D&T instead if testing is not successful with mirran sader.

[_erbs_]

Okay ... Maybe I will try him again. I got 3rd at the Jupiter games tourney back in January (22 2011) with this list

Land 22
4x savannah
4x windswept heath
2x horizon canopy
2x plains
1x flagstones of trokair
1x forest
4x wasteland

Creatures 27
4x mother of runes
4x tarmogoyf
4x qasali pridemade
3x sotneforge mystic
2x jotun grunt
3x gaddock teeg
3x mangara of corondor
4x knight of the reliquary

Spells 11
4x swords to plowshares
4x aether vial
1x umezawas jitte
1x Sword of fire and ice
1x sword of light and shadow

SB
3x krosan grip
3x burrenton-forge tender
3x orims chant
3x ethersworn canonist
2x pithing needle
1x jotun grunt


I am thinking if I play this deck again I will add the crusader because I think there will be even more green being played because of green sun zenith. But we will see I might just play the white D&T instead if testing is not successful with mirran sader.

Hello
our build is almost identical, whats the problem you have encountered in your build ?

[timmycolossus]

Nothing is really wrong with the build I have been playing it for a long time now but I did not really play it in tournaments because survival was in the meta. Now that its gone this deck is great. I just want to explore other options. I mean the deck works and its great but could it be better?
There are some problems I have noticed though. Losing rishidian port is sort of a big problem. You have big creatures but sometimes you have a flood of lands and ports would be helpful in situations like those. But for the most part the deck gets there in terms of winning in my meta.

[_erbs_]

Nothing is really wrong with the build I have been playing it for a long time now but I did not really play it in tournaments because survival was in the meta. Now that its gone this deck is great. I just want to explore other options. I mean the deck works and its great but could it be better?
There are some problems I have noticed though. Losing rishidian port is sort of a big problem. You have big creatures but sometimes you have a flood of lands and ports would be helpful in situations like those. But for the most part the deck gets there in terms of winning in my meta.

In your build, don't you find it hard to mix jotun, kotr and tarmo all together ? you don't run nobles and run 4 wastelands aren't you having a hard time coming up with colored mana, i know vial is there but there are times vial is too slow.

[DalkonCledwin]

Okay ... Maybe I will try him again. I got 3rd at the Jupiter games tourney back in January (22 2011) with this list

Land 22
4x savannah
4x windswept heath
2x horizon canopy
2x plains
1x flagstones of trokair
1x forest
4x wasteland

Creatures 27
4x mother of runes
4x tarmogoyf
4x qasali pridemade
3x sotneforge mystic
2x jotun grunt
3x gaddock teeg
3x mangara of corondor
4x knight of the reliquary

Spells 11
4x swords to plowshares
4x aether vial
1x umezawas jitte
1x Sword of fire and ice
1x sword of light and shadow

SB
3x krosan grip
3x burrenton-forge tender
3x orims chant
3x ethersworn canonist
2x pithing needle
1x jotun grunt


I am thinking if I play this deck again I will add the crusader because I think there will be even more green being played because of green sun zenith. But we will see I might just play the white D&T instead if testing is not successful with mirran sader.

Your Mana Base looks slightly questionable. I personally feel that 3x Savannah is more than enough for the GW version of the deck. Additionally I think that Flagstones of Trokair while effective in the mono-white version of the deck, is fairly risky in the GW. This is especially true if you should for whatever reason come up against a Blood Moon oriented deck and have your 19 Non-Basic Lands turned against you. Also you forgot to list what I assume is your 4x Karakas? Personally I think one only needs 3x Karakas, especially if they are running Knight's of the Reliquary in the deck.

I would personally replace the Jotun Grunts with Serra Avengers, and maybe replace 2 other cards with Serra Avengers (the two you replace is 100% up to you though). Your main deck non-creature spells look about right however.

In your sideboard, you have 6 cards designated for the purpose of combating Combo decks. Are they really that big a threat in your meta? Also, have you considered an Enlightened Tutor or Worldly Tutor Sideboard build?

[timmycolossus]

Yeah your right. I ran 3 karakas. After the tourney I took out flagstones and put in another plains upping the plains to 4. Also I changed my list so it runs 4x serra avenger now. I also have changed my board since. Its like you read my mind. I took out grunt. He was only good in situations where I did not have tarmogoyf and my opponent had tarmogoyf. So yeah. I have tried the enlightened board in the past but did not like it. I am not denying that its not good but I personally chose not to use it.

[Derayler]

Im looking into building this deck. I love the power it is gaining and am seeing how well positioned it is becoming in the changing metagame. I definitly think that the green splash is awesome as it gives you power over other creature decks. What I am thinking is wether or not the black splash is worth it. You get a better SB, thoughtseize, and Bob. My worries is wether these cards are necessary, the instability you gain from the mana base and that dark confidant is weak, when it comes to putting in damage.

[DalkonCledwin]

I am personally not all that thrilled with the black splash. For one thing, Dark Confident will often times do more damage to you, than he does to your opponent. Additionally Thoughtseize and Dark Confidant combined make the Burn match up considerably worse (and considering that the Burn match up is one of the more baseline match ups for the format why would you want to make that match up worse?). All told I would rather just stick to a GW or a Mono-White build.

[supachai]

Is there a reason the GW builds of DnT aren't running Phyrexian Revoker (or at least in the main)?

[trivial_matters]

For one thing, Dark Confident will often times do more damage to you, than he does to your opponent.

I'm not sure what you mean here. In my opinion, the point of Dark Confidant is that he draws cards and thus provides an advantage over your opponent. If he attacks and deals damage, that's just a bonus.


Additionally Thoughtseize and Dark Confidant combined make the Burn match up considerably worse (and considering that the Burn match up is one of the more baseline match ups for the format why would you want to make that match up worse?)

Why is Burn a baseline match-up for the format? Also, you play Stoneforge Mystic and plenty of equipment, which is good against that deck (think Umezawa's Jitte). Don't some versions play Burrentown Forge-Tender as well?

[LegacyDan]

I would consider Burn a "baseline" deck since its a cheap and consistant deck. Chances are, in a local event, burn will be around if you have new players or if people can't afford decks with playsets of $10+ cards.

[mrjumbo03]

True... Burn, being really cheap to put together, plus with the release of FnL premium deck is always present in tourneys... in 2 tournaments I've recently played... I played against burn 3 times... I went 2-1... I was thinking, wouldn't putting in a Dragon's Claw in the sb to solidify the match to the point that you can't possibly lose be worth 1 slot? I don't know, maybe it's just me but I recently opened up 3 slots in my sb because I found the relic-warders to be underwhelming... and I'm seriously considering putting in a miser's dragon's claw just to shove it to all the burn players... what do you guys think?

[CorpT]

Im looking into building this deck. I love the power it is gaining and am seeing how well positioned it is becoming in the changing metagame. I definitly think that the green splash is awesome as it gives you power over other creature decks. What I am thinking is wether or not the black splash is worth it. You get a better SB, thoughtseize, and Bob. My worries is wether these cards are necessary, the instability you gain from the mana base and that dark confidant is weak, when it comes to putting in damage.

I cannot imagine running my deck without Black. Besides Dark Confidant, you get Thoughtseize and Tidehollow Sculler and Engineered Plague in the board. I have never had an issue with the mana base and enjoy the additional power. Dark Confidant alone is a good enough reason to run black. The rest is just amazing extras.

[Sims]

I cannot imagine running my deck without Black. Besides Dark Confidant, you get Thoughtseize and Tidehollow Sculler and Engineered Plague in the board. I have never had an issue with the mana base and enjoy the additional power. Dark Confidant alone is a good enough reason to run black. The rest is just amazing extras.

Could I pester you for a list of your most recent deck with the black splash, i'd be interested in seeing it.

[CorpT]

Could I pester you for a list of your most recent deck with the black splash, i'd be interested in seeing it.

I get a lot of flak in both this thread and the Deadguy thread because my list is basically a mix of the two so both threads have problems with them. But I love my list.

3 Mother of Runes
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Squadron Hawk
3 Stoneforge Mystic

4 Aether Vial
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Vindicate
1 Umezawe's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

4 Marsh Flats
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
4 Scrubland
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Wasteland

Sideboard is fairly specific for local meta:
4 Path to Exile
3 Engineered Plague
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Duress
2 Krosan Grip
1 Mother of Runes

[4eak]

Yay, another person who is secretly in love with Squadron Hawk~! Admittedly, I think you almost have to concentrate on SFM/Equipment (would cost you another 2 slots, likely), to make those birds pimp enough to work. I'd be half tempted to the lose Goyfs for the 4th SFM/3rd equipment and Vindicates 3&4 .


peace,
4eak