[Deck] Death and Taxes [Archive] - Page 8

Whippoorwill

03-07-2011, 04:23 PM

Split for 1st again last night with an updated version of the GW build I played last week:

4 Plains
1 Forest
4 Savannah
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Windswept Heath
3 Karakas
4 Wasteland

4 Mother of Runes
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Serra Avenger
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Mangara of Corondor

4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Aether Vial
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Bonehoard

2 Sylvan Library

Sideboard:
3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Krosan Grip
1 Tariff
3 Path to Exile
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Faerie Macabre

Tariff was due to Natural Order/Show and Tell not being too uncommon to see and I only had 1.

Round 1 vs. BW Vial
Not sure what makes a deck qualify as a version of Death and Taxes, so I'm just calling his deck that.

Main thing worth note was him Vialing in Sculler during my draw step and taking the Vial I just drew. I had Library out though and still got a card even though it cost me 4 life. He won that game, but he was at 2 life when it ended. Game 1 I didn't drop below 19 and Game 3 was 18.

He was also using Soltari Priest in place of Avenger since he didn't have Avengers. The 2 damage from that is what ended up killing me game 2.

1-0; 2-1

Round 2 vs. Standardish GU Polymorph
Game 1 was pretty fast so I didn't know what he was doing aside from ramping mana. Then between games Mass Polymorph came to mind as to what he was doing.

Game 2 his Polymorphs pretty much turned into more mana creatures. Mass Polymorph resulted in giving him Ulamog and Iona (naming White). StP in my hand is useless with Iona out, but thankfully Mangara was out and active (didn't have a Karakas) so what would have normally ended the game only gave him 10 life.

2-0; 4-1

Round 3 vs. Mono White Life Gain
Note: He's a decent player despite what the deck type makes you think.

Game 1 took awhile since he was running lots of maindeck removal (Wrath, Day, Path, StP) with the lifegain. I have more threats than he has removal though and take the win after dealing a total of 43 damage throught the game.

Game 2 I had boarded out 2 Knights and a Pridemage in favor of 3 Paths since I know he had Ascendants from game 1 and that was the only win condition I saw. This game showed how persistent his deck was since it still took me forever to kill him despite Wasting his Kabira Crossroads and removing Plains (and other things at times) with Mangara+Karakas before he finally removed it. I knew my life wasn't an issue, so I took the hit from Library a few times during the game. He played Felidar Sovereign twice, but both times it was met with StP/Path. After all of his life gain, I ended up dealing him a total of 89 damage to get the win. Bonehoard was great here for the short time it was on the board (he disenchanted it) since it was giving my Avenger +7/+7 which helped against the life gain.

3-0; 6-1

Round 4 vs. R/g Goblins
Same guy as last week.

Split for first and 2nd again but played it out for fun.

3-0-1; 6-1-1

Game 1 I slowly kill myself with Horizon Canopy but eventually pull out the win with 3 life to spare.

Game 2: He hits me hard one turn with Piledriver, but he runs out of gas and I recover with Avengers and a 10/10 Germ put in by Stoneforge.

Sylvan Library - Still loving the card advantage, especially when I know I can afford to take the hit for multiple cards.

Bonehoard - I liked this much more than I expected. Its obviously not good early on outside of a chump blocker, but mid-late game is where it shines since there will likely be plenty of creatures in the graveyard. I'd much rather have this equipped to an Avenger over a Jitte. Despite how good Jitte is, I typically only bring it in for aggro matches if I know they're running it as well just to blank their copy, otherwise I'll SfM up a Sword first.

AggroSteve

03-07-2011, 06:35 PM

i find bonehoard to be a lovely idea, i have to try this myself

and congratulations on the finish

_erbs_

03-07-2011, 09:40 PM

@Whippoorwill
Grats on the finish !!

Just wondering have you tried out Sensei's Divining Top or mirri's guile over slyvan library ? And also don't you find your build abit slow... im running GnT aswell but i have 3 noble and 1 gaes cradle to boost my mana.

@Bonehoard
Very interesting indeed.. i may have to try it aswell but i wouldn't cut jitte for it what i'd cut is Sols.., jitte can easily deal with horde of 1/1 blockers, you don't have always the luxury of evasion thus i still find jitte very useful.

@ALL GnT users
Don't you feel the need for noble heirarch ? I've tried removing them but i felt the deck played out slowly and had mana issues especially with no vial on the board.

Whippoorwill

03-07-2011, 10:20 PM

mchainmail

03-07-2011, 10:39 PM

True... Burn, being really cheap to put together, plus with the release of FnL premium deck is always present in tourneys... in 2 tournaments I've recently played... I played against burn 3 times... I went 2-1... I was thinking, wouldn't putting in a Dragon's Claw in the sb to solidify the match to the point that you can't possibly lose be worth 1 slot? I don't know, maybe it's just me but I recently opened up 3 slots in my sb because I found the relic-warders to be underwhelming... and I'm seriously considering putting in a miser's dragon's claw just to shove it to all the burn players... what do you guys think?

If you want to play bad cards for a fringe matchup, try CoP:Red or Aegis of Honor.

_erbs_

03-08-2011, 12:13 AM

Thanks.

Re: Sylvan Library/Mirri's Guile/Sensei's Divining Top:
I thought about Mirri's Guile (I think you had suggested it last week), but I like the option of drawing extra cards if needed. I've drawn cards off it enough times to keep it in there instead of Guile. Top I hadn't considered and honestly it seems worse without Bob since I have to pay the mana to use it, for that I would rather use Guile.

Re: Noble Hierarch & Gaea's Cradle:
I really don't like the idea of Hierarch and Cradle since the deck isn't that mana intensive, especially since I dropped my mana curve considerably over the build I played last week. Now most things cost 2 for me so Hierach would be dead for the most part outside of turn 1-2 unless I change the deck considerably to fit things in like Elspeth and/or Baneslayer which benefit more from the mana accel.

Really ? in my playtesting i found the deck to be somewhat mana intensive our build is almost similar. Here's my build

Lands [21]
1 Forest
1 Gaea's Cradle
2 Plains
2 Karakas
4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
1 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland
2 Horizon Canopy

Creatures [28]
3 Mother of Runes
3 Noble Hierarch
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Serra Avenger
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Mangara of Corondor
2 Mirran Crusader
3 Knight of the Reliquary

Spells [11]
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

i ran 7 3cc creatures as compared to 6 with you. you also run sylvan library it could serve as a cantrip in searching for lands when needed via fetch or kotr.

mrjumbo03

03-08-2011, 08:58 AM

If you want to play bad cards for a fringe matchup, try CoP:Red or Aegis of Honor.

It's not like I want to play them for no reason, it's just that the number of burn in my area is ridiculously absurd because of the freaking premium deck release which might justify 1 slot to push that match to impossible to lose... no matter what you say about burn, it can still win games (i know it's not likely to win tourneys) and hey, it's not like we roll over that deck anyway... in any case, i found an even better card against burn...

WARMTH! Can't wait to get this out against a burn opponent... Hahaha

Fatal

03-08-2011, 09:04 AM

CoP:Red will be always better, it also useful vs Goblin MU.

Whippoorwill

03-08-2011, 12:19 PM

CoP:Red will be always better, it also useful vs Goblin MU.

CoP: Red also works against Progenitus, so it has that going for it as well.

Really ? in my playtesting i found the deck to be somewhat mana intensive our build is almost similar. Here's my build

i ran 7 3cc creatures as compared to 6 with you. you also run sylvan library it could serve as a cantrip in searching for lands when needed via fetch or kotr.

Looking at the list it is quite similar, so it might just be me then. I've never really worried about having enough mana as long as I've had 2 lands that tap for colored mana. And like you mentioned, Library helps make sure I get lands when I needed it.

If anything though, I would add Hierarch but not Cradle since the amount of Green mana needed is minimal and it would mainly be used for equipment casting/equipping.

Finn

03-08-2011, 01:49 PM

Even one Gaea's Cradle is a gamble in a deck like this. There are plenty of games when I do not have a creature out until turn 2. That means that in those games, you would need two other lands plus this one to call the hand a keeper, and it may only produce a single green when you play it on turn three.

I have not mentioned it much here, but I have been testing Oust with much success recently. The deck really does not want to have only STP for cheap removal (I am not including all the forms of dependent removal here). Oust has been stand out better for me than

Condemn
Path to Exile
Sunlance
Oblivion Ring

I see a few D+T decklists with PtE and I have to scratch my head at how foolish it is to run that card in a deck that wins its matches by denying its opponents resources. I tried it briefly when Leonin Arbiter came out and I was still hating it. The life gain from STP is almost never a problem because of the way this deck plays. I understand that it is hard to see how the land hurts you when you are unfamiliar with the idea. And I understand that it is a relatively new card with players from Standard and Extended familiar with it. But when you play the card the first time and see the opponent get a free land drop, you have to note that it really hurts your gameplan - and then question its value in the deck. The free land makes such a big difference that I will reiterate what I said in the Zoo thread way back.

Path to Exile is a decent card, but it can sometimes be a pain to sacrifice a creature every time you want a free land drop.

Joe_C

03-08-2011, 07:54 PM

I can't say that I agree with you %100 on path. I ran it this past weekend as a 2-of in my sb and I absolutely loved it. Most decks can survive off of 2-3 mana and once the late game gets going them getting another land is less of an issue than a 5+ power creature beating my face in and the life gain from swords is relevant at times especially if you have fallen behind and you need to swing in for lethal with a limited amount of damage, where swordsing a creature would give them another 2 turns or so. Oust just seems too clunky to me, it also does not remove the problem, it just delays it. If it was an instant I would be all over it since it could be used in response to a fetchland.

Finn

03-09-2011, 10:34 AM

Joe, you compared Path to STP there. You are best off not conflating the two unless you think we should be trading in STP for Path. Man, I hope that is not the case. Oust always gives 3 life, so that is much less of an issue.

...once the late game gets going...I have read these words before.So do you Path the Lavamancer or Confidant or Lackey or Mother of Runes on turn 1 or 2 or whatever? You have to. But considering how many of our opponents are going to be working at beating us on tempo, what have you really gained? Oust is a good tempo card that gets better when you are denying the opponent mana. You are not allowing the opponent to draw his creature again, you are forcing him. And he may not want it. If you are taking down a couple of lands that game, what he really wants is land. If you just Pathed that creature you have shot yourself in the foot.

On the other hand, I am willing to give my opponent 3 life since I have pretty much taken control if I am attacking for the win. It is an extreme rarity for us to be eeking out a victory without first establishing superior position. But it does happen against control. In fact, Oust loses some more ground against control versus Path since they are unlikely to land an early threat when path is at its weakest. However, it is against those opponents that you are likely to side out either of these cards so this is hardly a problem. I am not saying that Oust is perfect. It is still a sorcery and there are times in which I do not want my opponent to see the critter again. But I am saying that (a) Path to Exile sucks and (b) Oust is a serviceable secondary removal spell behind Swords to Plowshares.

Fatal

03-09-2011, 12:11 PM

Oust looks good but there is one problem with it:
Its sorcery..

Whippoorwill

03-09-2011, 12:15 PM

Oust has potential as you mentioned, but for most of the creatures you mentioned, I'd rather give them a land (if they even have any basics left) and be permanently done with said creature rather then them playing it again 2 turns later making me have to use another removal spell on it since they'll likely still have 1-2 lands left even after LD. And if you have superior board position when casting the spell, it shouldn't matter if its Oust or Path.

Finn

03-09-2011, 01:44 PM

I realize that some of the posters here are playing green, so there is a bit of apples and oranges going on.

I often have superior board position specifically because I have kept my opponent off a color. Countless times, I have kept my Countertop opponent off Green until he topdeck a Tropical Island or fetches or Ponders into it or whatever. He will immediately cast a Tarmo, and pass. On my turn, I Wasteland the land or begin Porting it as I always do. Then, I can Oust the Tarmo or I can Path it. One of these is the overwhelmingly better choice. And this is against a control deck where Oust is not as strong. Even then it is way better than Path.

Edit: On further thought, I suppose not all CounterTop players have a basic forest. Most of my experience against this opponent comes from two particular players. One of them definitely does and I don't know about the other. I have no idea how many of my tournament opponents did.

deviant

03-09-2011, 02:00 PM

And you are actually diding in oust against cb decks?

For me, pte is there to help against zoo and affinity mostly. Matchups where its drawback is not really an issue.

Finn

03-09-2011, 02:37 PM

Joe_C

03-09-2011, 05:13 PM

Finn: I don't want to make this argumentative, as everyone has their own preference for cards etc. I like to think I play the deck very well, as i have top 8'd with it multiple times and only losing to poor matchups or the occasional mana screw. Does the mana denial plan come online for you "every" game? I can honestly say it doesn't pan out for me as often as I like. Most of the time past turn 3-4 unless my opponent is really dying for mana I need to invest tapping my lands to play/ equip equipments. Im not saying path is perfect, but for me the instant speed and no life gain is something I prefer to have. I would not bring it in against zoo (I just run 2 path in my board).

Fry

03-09-2011, 06:12 PM

Personally I think Path to exile is not a good card for death and taxes. the wastelands and ports are counter acted by the path, making them pointless to have in the deck. Granted I play a mono white version so I don't have the color intensity of other builds, I can wait a turn for the other land in my hand to play a critter or equipment so I can still lock down my opponents land for another turn or waste one without hurting my own position. I'll state again that Path is not a good card for this deck that has a large game plan of mana denial, even late game it's still there, cutting your opponent out of a color and shuffling the wastes back in with jotun grunt to the bottom then searching your library with mystic or some such other thing to keep the denial package going. Mangara is also good at denial when it gets online since permanently looking them on a certain number of land or out of a color can be very crucial to your own sucess with this deck.

_erbs_

03-09-2011, 09:25 PM

Has nobody tried Journey to nowhere as the backup removal for swords ?

My thoughts on Oust and PTE
• Oust - is so so but i still don't like it bec:
- sorcery.
- you have to deal with that creature again after one turn.

• PTE - not a great card early on since mana denial is a big part of DT, but this would be a very debated issue here.

If your your deck is a mono w DT which runs ports and wastelands i will not use this card.

If your your deck is GT which can only have a light mana denial plan you could use it as mana denial is not a big part of your game plan.

@Cradle
Yes i know drawing it early is crap but i'll take that risk any day as the land provided me more wins over loss in my playtesting. Yes you don't need tons of green mana but the ability to cast an equipment and equipping it to a tapped out opponent is what i like about it.

@GT
I know my GT build is not your regular GT builds which is posted in the opener in another forum nor has the traditional DT feel. As i continue to playtest my deck its beginning to feel more like WG maverick. There are times in where maganara is okay and times i wish it was something else. Mangara is really strong in mono W DT as it taxes opponents mana resources.

As i playtest both GT and DT i found that GT will have a hard time following DTs mana denial plan even if it was a very very light splash for 2 teeg 4 pridemages only. as colored mana will be a big issue if you still run ports.

Whippoorwill

03-10-2011, 02:11 AM

• PTE - not a great card early on since mana denial is a big part of DT, but this would be a very debated issue here.

If your your deck is a mono w DT which runs ports and wastelands i will not use this card.

If your your deck is GT which can only have a light mana denial plan you could use it as mana denial is not a big part of your game plan.

I think this is the best way to look at Path for D&T.

I only board mine in when I know I'm going against an aggro deck. In those situations I don't really care if they get the extra ramp since I can deal with just about anything they play. If they play a high cc creature, I'll just StP/Path/Mangara it, if they play a Planeswalker, I'll kill it with combat damage. If they play Upheaval, I look confused and laugh. I think mass removal is the only possible "big" spell I worry about in matches where I would board in Path, but I also tend not to overextend as much as I used to when I have superior board position.

timmycolossus

03-10-2011, 09:48 AM

deviant

03-10-2011, 10:58 AM

{facepalm} Don't use Path to Exile against Zoo! You need extra removal, yes. You do not need to give them extra lands. This is getting out of hand.

Please refer to my primer if you need guidance on cards.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=306633

Warning for flaming. Keep this shit off the boards. - zilla

Seriously though, I've been doing just fine PtE'ing zoos bigger dudes, obv you waste their first few mana sources and no you are not pathing their first creatures mindlessly. When they have their mana on the table, path "turns on". They don't really get much of the 1 extra land (if they havent already fetched their basics at this point) when they have 3 or so out already, so meh.

Playing path properly takes a little more strategy than throwing around swords at moving objects. I suggest you look into that.

Fry

03-10-2011, 11:46 AM

True True. BTW Fry congrats on the finish I only got to meet you briefly as you were facing your friend. I had play GT the month before and done well and looking at your DT list really shows some of the best elements of white.

Thank you, I'll be at Jupiter next weekend for the awesome double day of legacy

I enjoyed playing the deck immensely and I think I'll make one change to the deck which some would call me crazy for. I'm going to switch the sword of light and shadow for sword of feast and famine. My reasons include, but are not limited to, it gains the deck main board answers to tarmogoyf and knight of the reliquary. Also it forces a discard which at times is better than getting back a creature from your graveyard which is sometimes a moot point if you have a Jotun Grunt in play. Also putting it in play with stoneforge then equiping it(which is the most likely senario) swinging allows you to play another threat, or use your ports during your opponents upkeep and gives you the ability to bluff a swords to plowshares.

Finn

03-10-2011, 12:02 PM

@Joe
Oust comes out against some combo and control stuff, but don't you think that extra removal is necessary specifically for faster opponents and Zoo is naturally on the top of that list? If you are not bringing in Paths against Zoo, I don't really understand why they are in your sb.

I am with you on keeping this cool. It is a sophisticated topic, and having difference of opinion is what the forum is for. It is rare to actually convince someone outright. More often you sow the seeds of a new perspective.

@deviant, for starters, Oust is in my main.

Of course Path is fine on big guys late in the game. Time Stop is a great counterspell once you hit six mana. And Rapid Fire is particularly good at making a Craw Wurm rip up those 4 blocking Merfolk of the Pearl Trident when you have an effect forcing them to block. Telling us where a card is strong does not change the fact that it is weak elsewhere.

You are instructing us not to Path anything until after Zoo has a few lands on the battlefield? Just let the first few dudes kick you in the nuts then? You have 4 Swords to Plowshares accompanying those secondary removal spells not 12 or 14 others ala Zoo. The chances of just choosing another option are slim. So you likely have to decide if you care to screw yourself by allowing a Nacatl or Lackey or Mom or whatever to do what they do or by giving the opponent a giant tempo boost with a free land when what you really need to be doing is killing the ones they already have. He does not only get that land next turn. He gets it on every turn that follows. You will be behind for the rest of the game. And if you are successfully depriving an opponent of mana and then he sneaks one in and plops a guy down, what then? Do you Path it and just give up disrupting mana? Path is ONLY good if you are in the latter stages of the game and ONLY if you are not able to deny mana. Why would anyone play a spell with such limitations when there is another good alternative? Oust is good all game every game.

See, the benefit of a proper home for info on a deck like a primer is that the info has been thought-out, discussed, tested, and discussed some more.

EDIT: @Fry, I think that is definitely worth testing. Funny thing about L+S is that what I usually want is the life gain and the +2 bonus. Jitte can already do that. I want to give F+F a try myself.

Joe_C

03-10-2011, 12:21 PM

I would have to say the bonus of SoLS that I like the most is the returning of creatures. Taking back a grunt someone has countered or that died to itself is a plus I wouldn't want to be without. I would likely be more comfortable with SoFI in the board and sword of feast and famine in the main in it's spot. SoLS also gets you back in the game where I don't see any other sword aside from jitte accomplishing.

Also, I've only played with path once in tournament play. I'm not sold on it, but it did come in very handy the time I did play it

mrjumbo03

03-10-2011, 01:32 PM

I still think that SoFaF is still relatively weak compared to the 2 swords... SoLaS = protection from STP, in my opinion the most commonly played removal spell in the format... For that reason alone, I can't say I would want SoFaF over it... Also, equipping SoLaS to your x/2 guys gets them out of the 3 damage range as well, making them almost immune to targeted removal... SoFi on the other hand is auto win against merfolk and gobs (more against merfolks than gobs)...

I'm not saying that SoFaF is a bad sword... It's actually good and if only DnT isn't as tight as it is, I would love to put one in... The effects you get from successfully connecting with SoFaF dull in comparison to the effects you get with the 2 original swords... I'm not sure if it's here or in the other forums but someone once said this, "If I'll be investing 4-5 mana into playing and equipping an equipment, I'd rather shock somebody and draw 2 cards, or gain 3 life and get a creature back than force my opponent to discard a card and untap my lands..."

deviant

03-10-2011, 01:46 PM

@deviant

If they are manascrewed for a while, and then find a land and pop out a dude, I would expect having used the time I had to develop my board. Get bigger dudes, more dudes, swords and stuff. At this point it should not matter if you path or not. Kissing a nacatl for a few turns is hardly an issue, and I doubt I'd waste a removal on it anyways. Kotr kinda dudes are the real issue, not nacatl, or goyf.
Anyway, I'm not saying PtE is the stoneblade against zoo, I'm saying it's a decent tool to supplement the swords. Here it helps you out when the game isn't going your way, and is worse when it is going well. Seems good to me.

As to pathing a turn one lackey, well I'm not thrilled about it but I'd rather do that than let them get the 5 mana that turn.

I dunno. Maybe your list cannot use pte at all, but at least in my gw bear deck it has been good. I wouldnt go lower than 2 in the sb.
Not every mu is all about mana-advantage or mana screwing the opponent. Sometimes there is stuff that needs to get killed and pte does that job just fine, where as oust is only delaying the inevitable.

And in the case where you win before the ousted creature makes a comeback, the land from pte wouldn't have had time to do much dmg either.

Did you btw know oust is a sorcery? That is pretty big.

Whippoorwill

03-10-2011, 08:07 PM

So you likely have to decide if you care to screw yourself by allowing a Nacatl or Lackey or Mom or whatever to do what they do or by giving the opponent a giant tempo boost with a free land when what you really need to be doing is killing the ones they already have. He does not only get that land next turn. He gets it on every turn that follows. You will be behind for the rest of the game. And if you are successfully depriving an opponent of mana and then he sneaks one in and plops a guy down, what then? Do you Path it and just give up disrupting mana? Path is ONLY good if you are in the latter stages of the game and ONLY if you are not able to deny mana. Why would anyone play a spell with such limitations when there is another good alternative? Oust is good all game every game.

Which hurts more: Your opponent getting an extra basic land or your opponent replaying a cheap threat that you've already had to use 1 removal spell on? Using Oust on a Lackey or Mom is a waste since they'll just play it again in 2 turns. And locking down their mana isn't an issue when they can drop a land the same turn to play it.

If your opponent drops Siege-Gang are you going to Oust that and give them more tokens in 2 turns? Saying you'll cut their mana so they never play it isn't an answer since Goblins run Ports as well and have other ways to cheat it in.

Also, as others mentioned, Oust being a Sorcery is a bigger limitation than giving an opponent a land. While its only 1 deck, Meandeck MUD runs Lightning Greaves which just laughs at Oust since the creature they need will have Haste and be protected before you even get a chance to use Oust.

Koby

03-10-2011, 08:56 PM

Any consideration for Journey to Nowhere? Or is it being a prison card not suitable for creature removal where StP and PtE are both cheap and permanent.

_erbs_

03-10-2011, 09:49 PM

@rukcus
I use journey to nowhere as my backup removal its not that great but it gets the job done. I feel its much better over oust bec you still get to kill a creature if your opponent will hit it with pridemage or spend another resource via disenchant, etc. as compared to oust which your opponent will surely re cast that threat again. Another reason my i picked journey as my backup removal it also doubles up against show and tell decks as compared to pte which can't deal with them. As for PTE in GT its not that bad bec GT doesn't have the mana denial strength as compared to mono w, but again pte is a very situational card when used properly is perfect aswell.

TheShaun

03-11-2011, 09:28 AM

With Mangara, O Ring, and Karakas, I didn't get the feeling that this deck had any concern whatsoever with Emrakul, other than when he is Sneak Attack'ed in.
I haven't tried Oust yet, but I actually think it might have a place in this deck. You are right that it doesn't remove the threat all together, but it does slow a deck down. The big problems for this deck are things like turn 1 Lackey or Nacatl. Using an Oust means that those decks won't be attacking until turn 3 at the earliest, which is an enormous help. I don't think Ousting a turn 1 Lackey is a waste at all, because by turn 3 you're going to have a blocker out. Without Oust, Mother of Runes or StP are your only chances of stopping the guy, and once he starts connecting it's pretty much game over. I'm going to give it some serious testing in the sideboard for Zoo and Goblins, as both of those matchups pretty much depend on Taxes just surviving the first 4 turns. If it gets to that point, Taxes will almost always take over the game and end up winning. Path to Exile seems a bit riskier to me when used for this purpose, as ramping them on turn 1/2 is a pretty big effect, especially for a deck running Waste/Port. Path obviously gets much better as the game goes longer, when mana denial stops being significant.

Finn

03-11-2011, 10:11 AM

As to pathing a turn one lackey, well I'm not thrilled about it but I'd rather do that than let them get the 5 mana that turn."It's better than nothing" is about as weak an argument as you can possibly make here. Try making this comparison using Path and Oust instead of Path and a grilled cheese sandwich.

Which hurts more: Your opponent getting an extra basic land or your opponent replaying a cheap threat that you've already had to use 1 removal spell on?You are also not making an accurate comparison. The actual comparison is that the opponent gets a free land or (in most cases) gets the threat back 1.5 turns later. Path is not only tempo disadvantage, it is card disadvantage as well. And, for the record, Ousting the Lackey we are discussing is excellent. On turn 1 a Lackey is a bomb. On turn 3 it is pretty mediocre unless the goblin player has something like another Lackey, a Warchief, and a Piledriver also in play on turn 3. We know that this will not be the case because we took out the Lackey that facilitates that start. In fact, in my testing, my opponent usually did not even replay the Lackey right away. You may want to consider the relevance of that.

I use journey to nowhere as my backup removal its not that great but it gets the job done. I feel its much better over oust bec you still get to kill a creature if your opponent will hit it with pridemage or spend another resource via disenchant, etc. as compared to oust which your opponent will surely re cast that threat again.Yet another person who is not making a proper comparison. Oust does not put the creature in the opponent's hand. The opponent can use a Pridemage to destroy Journey, costing him a card, or he can redraw the ousted creature two turns later, using a drawn card. Even total mana spent between players is pretty close to a wash.

Guys, I don't want to oversell the benefits of Oust. But, I can tell you that I am plenty familiar with the inner-workings of this deck and I have actually tested all these cards (well not Journey) and I can tell you that Oust has been the least bad secondary removal spell against the opponents we need it most against. Goblins, Merfolk, Zoo, Bant, Horizons, etc. It comes out against MUD of course, as well as most control and combo after game 1 (we have plenty of good sb cards for them and something has to come out). In most circumstances I have encountered, the sorcery-ness of it has been a nonfactor. Goblins,ehh, it is occasionally kinda clunky. SGC and hasty guys are certainly happy that it is not an instant. But Goblins with a splash color gets rocked by D+T due in part to their high CMC versus our denial, and I will not be giving them lands. Even still, I am not asking you to take me at my word. Of us, I think I am the only person to actually try Oust. At any rate, I just encourage you to take those crappy Paths out and use whatever else you like.

@deviant, mana denial is an issue often enough that I don't want a card that diminishes that part of the disruption suite when I can get a very similar effect from a card that does not. D+T has a bajillion ways to handle pesky creatures if it can just keep up on tempo. Oust works toward that goal where Path works against it.

Star|Scream

03-11-2011, 01:05 PM

EDIT: @Fry, I think that is definitely worth testing. Funny thing about L+S is that what I usually want is the life gain and the +2 bonus. Jitte can already do that. I want to give F+F a try myself.

The only reason I've ever been happy to see L&S is against swords, elspeth tokens or the mirror.

I think (am hoping!) that being pro firespout, goyf, kotr, terastodon, and still letting our revokers be pro pridemage, and our canonists pro-grip will help. Now we just need a pro-emrakul sword.

Koby

03-11-2011, 01:17 PM

Now we just need a pro-emrakul sword.

Tajuru Preserver

Star|Scream

03-11-2011, 01:27 PM

Tajuru Preserver

"in monowhite"

CorpT

03-11-2011, 01:38 PM

Why are you limiting yourself to just white? Adding a color is not hard and provides significant benefits. That being said, Tajuru Preserver is a pretty bad way to deal with Emrakul as it still bashes for 15 in the air.

lebarion

03-11-2011, 01:46 PM

Why are you limiting yourself to just white? Adding a color is not hard and provides significant benefits.

I guess that's because the mana denial plan is stronger in mono white.

Star|Scream

03-11-2011, 03:06 PM

I guess that's because the mana denial plan is stronger in mono white.

In my case I just hate playing GREEN.

Fry

03-11-2011, 06:34 PM

I love playing green, but I do a mono white death and taxes because the mana denial plan is so much more effective than if you splash a color.

chags

03-11-2011, 07:39 PM

From the looks of it monowhite is the favored version of death and taxes in this thread but seeing as it does not have its own thread I figured I'd talk about my Green and Taxes list here in case anyone preferred that version. I played in two events at last week's Edison New Jersey Star City Open. My list was a take on Lewis Laskin's list with some besieged cards and a retooled SB. I talked to Laskin during the standard event about the changes and he seemed in favor of them and gave me some input on other cards he had tried in the deck. After our discussion my 75 came out as follows:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Mother of Runes
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Mangara of Corondor
2 Serra Avenger
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Eternal Witness
1 Noble Hierarch

1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial

4 Wasteland
4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
3 Plains
2 Forest
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor

Sideboard:
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Choke
1 Runed Halo
1 Dueling Grounds
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Pithing Needle
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Aura of Silence
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Krosan Grip
3 Path to Exile

I used an enlightened tutor SB because I was bothered by my lack of answers to Progenitus as well as my inability to combat combo decks without drawing my hate cards. Enlightened tutor allowed runed halo against progenitus, I had a reliable way to get ethersworn canonist, choke was great against control, dueling grounds felt amazing in the tribal matchups, and aura of silence was there for control and the enchantress decks I had seen running around on Saturday. I am considering cutting the Aura of Silence in favor of Null Rod in the future since my combo match up is so rough.

On Saturday I played in the legacy challenge going 4-0 in the event. I faced off against spiral tide in round one winning 2-1 thanks to gaddock teeg and GSZ. I played ANT in round two and won 2-1 thanks to him flipping his second ad nauseum off the first for lethal. Round three I beat junk 2-0 and round four I beat 43 Lands 2-0. Sunday I played in the main event and finished 32nd going 6-3. My wins came from landstill (uwb) [2-1], Fish twice [4-0], Laskin Bant [2-1], 4C counterbalance [2-0], and Dredge [2-0]. I lost to Deedstill (ubg) [1-2], Combo Elves (ug) [0-2], and 12 post [0-2].

Serra Avenger was a house all day and won me multiple games. The tutor sideboard worked amazingly well and played much better then my old board was. GSZ is ridiculous but I think everyone has figured that part out already. Over all I loved the deck and how it played, I just wish I had drawn Mangara more often, especially against 12 post.

_erbs_

03-11-2011, 10:31 PM

@chags
how is GsZ working for you ?

Whippoorwill

03-11-2011, 10:35 PM

You are also not making an accurate comparison. The actual comparison is that the opponent gets a free land or (in most cases) gets the threat back 1.5 turns later. Path is not only tempo disadvantage, it is card disadvantage as well. And, for the record, Ousting the Lackey we are discussing is excellent. On turn 1 a Lackey is a bomb. On turn 3 it is pretty mediocre unless the goblin player has something like another Lackey, a Warchief, and a Piledriver also in play on turn 3. We know that this will not be the case because we took out the Lackey that facilitates that start. In fact, in my testing, my opponent usually did not even replay the Lackey right away. You may want to consider the relevance of that.

Its also not uncommon for Goblins to start with Vial on turn 1 which nullifies quite a bit of your mana denial strategy. I don't think it would be too uncommon for them to Vial in a Warchief turn 4 then play a Piledriver and/or other Goblins. Situations like this is where Oust is terrible since its a Sorcery. I agree with you that its great early on against Lackey, but Goblins also leads with Vial when it doesn't have Lackey. And when they Vial in things at eot, you're stuck with that Oust in your hand hoping you survive to get another turn.

You also ignored the point I had made about Siege-Gang Commander which is a fairly relevant threat since it's one of the main ways for them to kill Mom.

I'll concede that Oust is good in the first few turns, but the longer the game goes, the worse it gets. And I can agree that Path is pretty much the opposite. I still prefer to be permanently finished with a threat though and much prefer the Instant speed.

Derayler

03-12-2011, 01:04 AM

I love this deck personally. I feel like splahing black would be good, but the more I look into the deck the more I see how different it is from everyother confidant deck. I do see that splashing just for seize could be powerful like Eli Kassis did, but at that point it seems Junk would be a better metagame call. I have read a ton into legacy lately and it definitly seems like this is one of the strongest decks in a CB and vial meta game. Drew Lewin had it right, find a good Knight deck and this definitly seems like it's the one. Now we just have to wait for control to get rid f all these combo decks.

Penguinizer

03-12-2011, 05:59 AM

I've been toying with giving Leonin Arbiter one more shot before I switch to GW Splash. This is mainly since I don't really have much else to use instead at this point in time. I'll do a few tests on Cockatrice and see how it does.

Here's the working list:
10x Plains
4x Karakas
4x Wasteland
3x Rishadan Port

4x Mother of Runes
4x Leonin Arbiter
4x Serra Avenger
3x Stoneforge Mystic
2x Jötun Grunt
2x Phyrexian Revoker (meant to be 3. Still lacking one.)
4x Flickerwisp
3x Mangara of Cornodor

4x Aether Vial
4x Swords to Plowshares
Umezawa's Jitte
Sword of Fire and Ice
Sword of Light and Shadow
2x Oblivion Ring

SB:
3x Wing Shards
2x Cataclysm
1x Jötun Grunt
3x Enlightened Tutor
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Wheel of the Sun and Moon
1x Pithing Needle
1x Phyrexian Revoker (might just switch this to the MD. Have no idea what to play in the SB instead.)
2x Ethersworn Canonist

I'm mainly sticking with the tried and true.

mrjumbo03

03-12-2011, 06:58 AM

@ Penguinizer, there is something wrong with your lists even if assuming those islands are plains, i'm pretty sure that 14 is not the correct number... Also, arbiters are still great in the post-survival era (well i've really been one of the main advocates of this card, so maybe I'm biased...haha) but to really maximize the mana denial plan, as you are already playing the arbiters, go to 4 ports as well... our lists are almost identical except I have dropped the oblivion rings from the main altogether and have gone for an all-in enlightened tutor sb...

AggroSteve

03-12-2011, 09:17 AM

@ penguinizer: for the sideboard slot you are missing i would suggest a 3rd canonist

Penguinizer

03-12-2011, 10:12 AM

Fry

03-12-2011, 11:20 AM

@Penguinizer

We have very similar main boards, here's what I use:

Main Board:
3 Flickerwisp
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Leonin Arbiter
3 Mangara of Corondor
4 Mother of Runes
2 Oblivion Ring
4 Serra Avenger
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 AEther Vial
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Karakas
3 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
12 Plains

Side Board:
2 Goldmeadow Harrier
3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Wing Shards
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Sword of LIght and Shadow
2 Wheel of Sun and Moon

chags

03-12-2011, 02:51 PM

@chags
how is GsZ working for you ?

GsZ has been amazing ever since I fit it in. Originally the deck had 4 mother of runes, 4 pridemage, 4 mangara and 3 gaddock teeg. I cut 2 teeg and 1 mangara for the GsZ and then cut a mother of runes and a pridemage for eternal witness and noble hierarch. The ability to go get dryad arbor on turn 1 to increase land count, grab hierarch for mana or exalted, tutor your pridemages at the exact time you need them, grab teeg without wasting 3 slots on him, or even just go get a goyf when you need a bigger creature is awesome. As long as I am playing GW I'll have GsZ as a 3 of in the deck, if I were to switch to 3 colors the GsZ would probably come out but for now it adds a lot of power to the deck.

_erbs_

03-12-2011, 09:35 PM

GsZ has been amazing ever since I fit it in. Originally the deck had 4 mother of runes, 4 pridemage, 4 mangara and 3 gaddock teeg. I cut 2 teeg and 1 mangara for the GsZ and then cut a mother of runes and a pridemage for eternal witness and noble hierarch. The ability to go get dryad arbor on turn 1 to increase land count, grab hierarch for mana or exalted, tutor your pridemages at the exact time you need them, grab teeg without wasting 3 slots on him, or even just go get a goyf when you need a bigger creature is awesome. As long as I am playing GW I'll have GsZ as a 3 of in the deck, if I were to switch to 3 colors the GsZ would probably come out but for now it adds a lot of power to the deck.

Ic thanks for the inpunts

lebarion

03-14-2011, 10:08 AM

Still talking about other options of removal, did someone test Shining Shoal?
I believe that it may be a good option if used correctly. As I see it, the good things are that it may not be card-disadvantage and gives you tempo (by not making you tap your lands early game), and the bad thing is that you need a blocker or a CMC-3 card in hand generally for it to be effective.

Opinions?

Edit: I missed that it hardly kills utility creatures such as Welder and Confidant in time...

Edit 2: OK, I've already dismissed it... I just noticed that if I try to redirect damage from a blocker I may eat removal in response and be 3-for-1'ed.

TheShaun

03-14-2011, 05:52 PM

I think I have a general idea, but what do you guys consider to be good and bad matchups for this deck? This is just my current guess, as I have only been able to test a few so far:

Anything Counterbalance based is very strong
Other blue based control (Standstill, Bant) are slightly positive.
Tribal, Zoo, Rock are 50/50
Combo is very poor

I haven't had a chance to test against Rock or non-Counterbalance control yet though, so those are just logical estimates. What have you guys seen as far as actual results go, assuming equal skill level? I also know that I'm missing a large number of decks, feel free to input any other matchups that you feel are important to point out for one reason or another.

AggroSteve

03-14-2011, 06:23 PM

actually since i play both rock/junk and D&T i know the week point of D&T against Rock is Deed.... if we can't do anything about a resolved deed and in time we lose a lot of board-position and due to that often even the game.... but since phyrexian revoker was put into the deck even that matchup has become a lot easier because deed does not sweep anymore (neither does EE) and their knight will not grow insanely.... and as long they have no way to remove an active mother we are completely fine plus they cannot block any of our flying creatures^^

if zoo is around 50/50 depends on your build.... i would say if you play Green & Taxes that should be allright if not slightly favored for G&T if its the mono W build its slightly favored for the zoo player

and for tribal... they should not be a problem, the swords are Bombs here

combo is indeed very poor but not unwinnable, but you need a lot of sideboard-slots to make it winnable, which makes your post-board matchups for other archetypes a bit weaker

but maindeck revokers + maybe hatebears (leonin arbiter), plus sideboard silence and canonists or E-Tutor-Toolbox helps a lot... if combo does not get a god-hand and finishes you on your first turn

lately i have been thinking of the "rising" of affinity decks, and i have some problems against them, how do you feel about affinity?

TheShaun

03-14-2011, 06:32 PM

I want to say Aura of Silence is a bomb against Affinity, and it is. However, turn 3 is probably a turn too late. I will keep investigating though for something better.

_erbs_

03-14-2011, 10:23 PM

@affinity
best solution i've found out is serenty. but DT will have an easier MU against affinity bec phyrexian revokers will stop most of affinity's abilities.

mrjumbo03

03-15-2011, 12:22 AM

@affinity, I'll go with null rod only because of the fact that it hits other decks like combo (no more mana artifacts) and the kuldotha-metalworker decks that's been rising in popularity...

_erbs_

03-15-2011, 02:03 AM

lebarion

03-15-2011, 08:33 AM

Hello,
Just wondering.., generally DT or GT has a light removal suite.., how do you deal with enemy revokers.., especially against a zoo that runs revokers main deck. Revoker naming vial, noble, equips, managara, mother of runes, etc. would be very troublesome

I don't think Revokers are a problem for us. It is true that we have plenty of targets for it, but we also have plenty of ways of dealing with them permanently with StP, Mangara and equipment. You can also Flickerwisp the Revoker to equip a Sword (of course this is not good with Jitte).
They must have at least two Revokers to really bother me, and in this case I'm fine beating them with Avengers, as their clock should be slower than ours.

luiz

03-17-2011, 09:39 PM

I use version Green and Tax and I liked use Scryb Ranger because a can use relicary and magara 2 times, and my creatures receve a "flash vigilance" in attack´s fase opponent.

TheShaun

03-17-2011, 11:55 PM

What kind of sideboards do you guys typically run for the mono-white version? I feel that 4 Silence is probably necessary for combo, but I'm not really sure how to build the rest. Here are some of the questions I've been tossing around:
I've considered going for an Enlightened Tutor package, with 3/4 of them and then several 1 of's, but I'm not sure that there are enough targets that help with the poor matchups.
I run Revokers main so I won't need to make space for them, so probably some Canonists in the sb? Or are they overkill?
Is Jotun Grunt fast enough to help with graveyard strategies, or is more than that needed?
What kind of things come in for tribal/zoo? Additional creature kill, life gain, CoP: Red, Kor Firewalker?
There just seems to be so many options for putting it together that I'm not even sure where to start lol.

Fry

03-18-2011, 01:30 AM

_erbs_

03-18-2011, 01:57 AM

My current side board for my mono white looks like this:

3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Wing Shards
2 Faerie Macabre
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Wheel of Sun and Moon

revoker is not part of your mainboard ?, in a mono DT revoker is a good part in the main for me

Fry

03-18-2011, 07:28 AM

It used to be, but I also run leonin arbiter in the main, and I would rather have the arbiter main

TheShaun

03-18-2011, 09:30 AM

Are just the leylines and revokers enough to make combo fair?

Penguinizer

03-18-2011, 10:05 AM

I also have Canonists in the SB as well for the tutor toolbox.

Anyways, my conclusions about Arbiter: It's still bad. I just wish there was something else to run in its place.

Penguinizer

03-18-2011, 10:11 AM

I also have Canonists in the SB as well for the tutor toolbox.

Anyways, my conclusions about Arbiter: It's still bad. I just wish there was something else to run in its place.

I'll probably cut them out to make room for a few more MD Revokers as well as a third MD Jötun Grunt. Newer idea, let's hope it still works.

10 Plains
4 Karakas
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port

4 Mother of Runes
4 Serra Avenger
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Jötun Grunt
2 Mirran Crusader
3 Mangara of Corondor
4 Flickerwisp

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 AEther Via
1 Umezawa's Jittel
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Oblivion Ring

SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 2 Cataclysm
SB: 3 Wing Shards
SB: 3 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Oblivion Ring

lebarion

03-22-2011, 03:51 PM

I took a monoW list to a 73-people tournament last weekend to a 4-3 result. Even though the result is kinda bad, I'm not that disappointed because it's my first experience with the deck IRL.

I've faced Merfolk (2-0), Bu Planeswalker Control (2-0), Aggro Elves w/ NO (0-2), Merfolk (2-0), Combo Elves w/ NO and Vengevines (0-2), Burn (0-2) and Uwr Countertop (2-0).
In the matches against Elves I was pushed to a defensive position in the beginning of both games, and when I had the control he played Natural Order. Had I resolved a Cataclysm, the result would probably have been different. I'll probably change something in my sideboard to handle Progenitus better (maybe Wing Shards in the place of Condemn, or even Retribution of the Meek, I dunno).
Both games against burn were close. Game one I was at one life with lethal damage in the board and a StP in hand that could give me three life from a Flickerwisp, but he had the Fireblast. Game 2 I was at 10 life, he had Furnace of Rath and a suspended Rift Bolt. I vialed in a Flickerwisp at end of my turn targeting the Furnace, but he Fireblasted me in response. He would have died from the equipped Flickerwisp attack next turn, thanks to the furnace.
The games I won had nothing so special. Equipment is great against merfolk, Revoker is great against planeswalkers, Vials and Revokers are great against Countertop. One of the games against Merfolk deserves a note: he conceded when I was at 1 life, and he was at 30 (due to StP and Condemns), after locked by Mangara+Karakas+Vial :).

My list:

9 Plains
1 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Karakas
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port

4 Mother of Runes
4 Serra Avenger
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Jötun Grunt
3 Mangara of Corondor
4 Flickerwisp

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 AEther Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Oblivion Ring

Sideboard:
3 Cataclysm
3 Condemn
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Runed Halo
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Absolute Law
1 Aura of Silence

I like the maindeck the way it is, but the sideboard maybe will change. It is very hard to prepare to a wide open field, though.

_erbs_

03-24-2011, 05:19 AM

Fry

03-24-2011, 09:01 AM

wall of omens just seems bad in this deck, it just sits there and doesn't do anything helpfuil, sure you get one card out of it, but after that it does nothing for you at all

lebarion

03-28-2011, 04:30 PM

I guess this thread is broken, but just in case it is not, have you seen the White Weenie that top8'ed in SCG LA?

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?6775-[Deck]-Death-and-Taxes/page91

It has very few similarities with D+T (well, both are mono white ;) ), but maybe incorporating Squadron Hawk isn't a bad idea. I've thought about it before and dismissed, but what do you guys think about it?

Wizened Cenn

03-28-2011, 06:49 PM

That was me who piloted white weenie, and i got 15th not top 8. That being said, Squadron Hawk is amazing.

EDIT: I wrote a tournament report for anyone who's interested:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20405-15th-at-SCG-LA-with-White-Weenie

TheShaun

03-28-2011, 09:44 PM

I tried the Hawk out and was not impressed. Maybe I just got thrown against some terrible matchups for it, but there weren't really any cases that I was too happy to see it. I liked it against Goblins, giving me chump blockers long enough to get Sword of Fire and Ice online, but in most matchups it was a 1/1 flyer. I got 2-for-1'ed several times with Fire/Ice, though it is nice that they can block and kill a Vendilion Clique. Overall I think that they have their uses, but I wasn't too impressed in the end. Against an aggro heavy meta I'd keep them in to block dudes for a couple turns but I don't see much other reason to have them.

_erbs_

03-28-2011, 11:55 PM

wall of omens just seems bad in this deck, it just sits there and doesn't do anything helpfuil, sure you get one card out of it, but after that it does nothing for you at all

well it depends on how you would see it function. as for me i since i have a high amount of 3cc i need the wall of omens to hold off my opponents 0/4 is a solid creature that could block opposing creatures if your opponent wants to go through he/she must use a removal for it. late games i could re use its draw via flickerwisp.

I don't like jotun grunts bec i need an early blocker to hold off aggressive decks. jotuns are nice against tarmo and kotr but needs enough cards in the gy to provide atleast a decent amount of time in the board before it dies to its upkeep.

@squadron hawk
i think is a nice card advantage card but seems abit weak unless your running fauna shaman or cards like Empyrial Armor and Empyrial Plate. non the less the pressure of landing 3 more creatures with evasion after the 1st especially if you run equips could give pressure to your opponent.

lebarion

03-29-2011, 09:22 AM

At first glance I'm against the idea of adding walls to this deck, as they have very bad synergy with equipment. However, a couple Wall of Omens may not be bad, as they hold aggro, the cantrip effect is very interesting and it gives the cantrip effect to Flickerwisp, too. In theory, they're never a bad topdeck.
The bad thing about cutting the Grunts is that you got weaker against graveyard strategies, at lease pre-side, but I don't know how relevant this is. Loam is not very common nowadays and 2 Grunts aren't enough to hold Vengevines, Dredge or Reanimator.

About Squadron Hawk, I don't think there's anything I want to cut for them. Also, It doesn't seem good until turn 4, when you can play at least on of the Hawks you fetched. Anyone disagrees?

nwong

03-29-2011, 10:21 AM

I think Squadron Hawk is terrible. Fetching 3 1/1 flyers isn't really card advantage when they don't really do anything. Sure, it's an evasive body to equip, but that's it. We already have access to bigger bodies that actually do something.

Same argument can be made with adding Wall of Omens. Sure, you draw a card, but you just spent one on a body that can't even attack.

This deck handles aggro decks quite well already, so additions like Wall of Omens and Squadron Hawk are pretty weak.

Sims

03-29-2011, 10:25 AM

I don't see hawk being as powerful in a deck like WW or DnT as it is in something like Blade (I'm dropping the Caw, cause it sounds silly to me) where it gives you cards to put back ontop aftera brainstorm/jace activation, gives you a shuffle effect, etc..

Just doesn't seem to be as powerful without the blue to back it.

Fry

03-29-2011, 03:46 PM

I think Squadron Hawk is terrible... We already have access to bigger bodies that actually do something.

Same argument can be made with adding Wall of Omens. Sure, you draw a card, but you just spent one on a body that can't even attack.

This deck handles aggro decks quite well already, so additions like Wall of Omens and Squadron Hawk are pretty weak.

I agree with your statement here, the Death and Taxes deck, not green and taxes or junk and taxes, already has plenty of very good inexpensive guys to play that are better than the wall and hawk in a vacuum. Then the argument goes the same way with the other versions of taxes where there is access to other colors to add other great cheap creatures like goyf or bob. I just can't think of anything I would even consider cutting for the hawks or walls.

TheShaun

03-29-2011, 05:54 PM

I agree with your statement here, the Death and Taxes deck, not green and taxes or junk and taxes, already has plenty of very good inexpensive guys to play that are better than the wall and hawk in a vacuum. Then the argument goes the same way with the other versions of taxes where there is access to other colors to add other great cheap creatures like goyf or bob. I just can't think of anything I would even consider cutting for the hawks or walls.

I already had suspicions, you beating me down in Vestal reinforced my thoughts. 4 creatures is nice, but they're still 1/1's. Getting some muscle is far preferred. From what I've seen, this deck performs best when it tries to be the aggresor instead of sneaking around and filling the hand up with 1/1's. They're nice chump blockers when you're the slower deck, and they are good filler material if you know you're gonna get hit with some Hymns. Otherwise, I vote to play a creature with balls.

_erbs_

03-29-2011, 10:23 PM

I don't know how you guys do it and most of you keeps saying that DT has a good MU against traditional zoo and jotun will be good enough to handle them. In my playtest vs traditional zoo if i don't get to disrupt there lands early its almost game over. Thats why i opted to use the wall over jotun grunts to hold them off until i could setup my board.

nwong

03-29-2011, 11:46 PM

What list do you use?

_erbs_

03-30-2011, 12:17 AM

What list do you use?

Lands [22]
2 flagstones of trokair
3 karakas
3 rishadan port
4 wasteland
10 plains

Creatures [25]
4 mother of runes
2 wall of omens
4 serra avenger
3 stoneforge mystic
3 phyrexian revoker
3 mirran crusader
3 managar of corondor
3 flickerwisp

Spells [13]
4 aether vial
4 stp
1 jitte
1 sofi
1 sols
2 cataclysm

TheShaun

03-30-2011, 12:26 AM

Leonin arbiter helps tons against zoo. If you can get him in turn 2 and then waste a land, it's likely that they'll be stuck on 1 or 2 for quite some time. Surviving the first few turns is typically all you need for zoo, though it is usually easier said than done. I think lavamancer is the biggest concern, but turn 1 nacatl needs to be answered as well.

nwong

03-30-2011, 12:58 AM

If that's the list you used to test against traditional zoo, then I'm not surprised zoo is a problem.

Jotun grunts help a lot since it's the only creature that doesn't die to burn. Getting one down buys you a couple of turns, plus it allows you to empty their graveyard so they can't use lavamancer. This is why it's better than Wall of Omens at holding zoo off.

More spot removal would help too. Oust is great against zoo. I don't like PtE, but it works too.

If I were looking to cut something, it'd probably be the crusaders. It's a beast when equipped, but all it does is make the win faster ie. win-more. The correct equip on ANY creature will usually get there without the need for doublestrike.

_erbs_

03-30-2011, 02:18 AM

arbiter will not last long enough in holding off your opponents especially against zoo. unless you land a turn 1 mother that doesn't die.

as for jotun, i used to run jotuns over wall of omens , yes it helps against tarmo and lavamancer but a good zoo player will just wait for your jotun to die on its own which usually dies in 2-3 turns. for me not long enough to help you setup against fast decks. but whats worse about him is that is a dead card early on thats the main problem i had thats why i switched. i feel in order to use jotun efficiently you need to have more spot removals and several fetch lands, i don't like oust... i want a permanent answer i was considering sun lance but never tried it. maybe because it can't deal with pridemage, kotr and mor.

as for mirran sader being a win more card.., as for me his not, his a solid muscle creature against rock type decks his protection and able to hold off enemy goyfs or kotrs is pretty helpful to help you stabilize board position and once an equipment hits the board he suddenly becomes a threat that needs to be dealt with by your opponent if not he will wreak havoc.

i've also tried Epochrasite, his good if you have a vial online but if none his crappy... and oh... zoo decks runs null rods and revokers at times in there SB so more pain for DT...

nwong

03-30-2011, 02:51 AM

If the "setup" that you're referring to is getting a stoneforge out, searching for SoLaS and getting it equipped to something, that usually takes 2-3 turns. Cards like Oust/Jotun Grunt will get you there.

As for rock decks, sure, the pro green is nice. Just pointing out that rock decks don't run very many creatures. As long as you can deal with Bob, you're usually fine trading cards with them. Your beaters are evasive and theirs aren't, which makes a huge difference.

Finn

03-30-2011, 11:16 AM

erbs, you are not seeing things clearly.

as for jotun, i used to run jotuns over wall of omens , yes it helps against tarmo and lavamancer but a good zoo player will just wait for your jotun to die on its own which usually dies in 2-3 turns. for me not long enough to help you setup against fast decks. but whats worse about him is that is a dead card early on thats the main problem i had thats why i switched. i feel in order to use jotun efficiently you need to have more spot removals and several fetch lands, i don't like oust... i want a permanent answer i was considering sun lance but never tried it. maybe because it can't deal with pridemage, kotr and mor.If you have one card that prevents Zoo from attacking for 2-3 turns, that is a fabulous hoser in this deck. Luckily, it does a lot more than that, but if that was all it did I would advocate playing it for sure.

The wall can not kill anything when it blocks. So the opponent can send his guys in with impunity and just deal up to 3 fewer points of damage on the way for a few turns whereas a creature that prevents the attack in the first place buys much more than that. I think we can agree on these things. Wall gets you a card of course. Well, a Vialed-in Grunt can usually do the same. So you have:

Wall of Omens: often better card advantage, never a threat, does a lesser job of preventing early damage
Jotun Grunt: dies after only a few turns when used early on, no card drawn, bigger problem to early attackers, is an actual serious threat as well as disruption

The basic premise behind the aggro versus control matchup is that aggro desires a fast kill while control has the advantage of inevitability. The problem with Zoo will always be that you die before you stabilize. That is 100% of their gameplan which is why we are control when facing Zoo. Why do I give a crap about drawing an extra card when I have inevitability from the other 56 cards in the deck? What I really need for two mana is something that actually deals with the problem - early damage. A good Zoo player will NOT wait for it to die in many cases, however, because he understands what I just explained. He will attack into it, lose a creature, and deal some extra damage to you. That is fantastic - and is the reason why a Grunt puts them in such a bind. If he hasn't got a Path, he is seriously hindered.

If that explanation is not enough, ask yourself what you asked the rest of us. Why are you having a hard time with this one when others are not?

One more thing: Against Zoo, extra removal is the best tool. Use Oust.

lebarion

04-04-2011, 08:29 AM

Quick report from yesterday's tournament. 63 people, I did 4-2 into 11th place. My list is the same I've posted some pages back (monoW with 4 Revokers MD), with the SB slightly modified (-3 Condem, +3 Tariff, -1 Absolute Law, -1 Wheel of Sun and Moon, -1 Runed Halo, +3 BFT)

Goblins (2-0) : I open first game with Mother of runes, Stoneforge Mystic finding Jitte, and draw SoFI. Game two I have 2 Burrenton Forge-Tenders from the sideboard, draw Jitte and win from there.

Team America: Game 1, I keep a doubtful hand with 2 Karakas and Aether Vial on the play. He forces the Vial and Wastes the Karakas in his first turn, giving me two turns to draw lands. I draw a plains and a Rishadan, and Jotun holding SoLS finishes him. Game 2, we waste each others' lands, but I have more lands than him. Jotun comes again. After paying his first upkeep, my opponent's had 6 cards in his grave, 2 Undergound Seas and a Phyrexian Revoker naming Vial, while I have the Jotun, an Avenger, a Rishadan Port and another land. I tap one of his lands in his upkeep, he responds by playing braistorm and dazing himself returning the tapped Sea to his hand, then replaying the Sea and casting Tombstalker. I cast StP in the revoker, activate Vial to put Flickerwisp into play removing the Tombstalker, and attck FTW.

CounterThopter (2-1): First game I end him too quickly. He plays a Blood Moon and a Jace TMS only, and as he was desperate to drop Blood Moon to nullify my Karakas, I put him on some kind of Show and Tell. Because of this, I my sideboard plan is completely wrong, and I lost game 2 badly. With the right sideboard, game 3 is a lot easier.

Affinity (0-2): First game he had a ravager, and after that an Etched Champion that gets lots of +1/+1 counters. Second Game, StP and a late Revoker are not enough to fight second Turn Ornithopter with Cranial Plating and Ravager with another Cranial Plating.

Dredge (2-1): Jotun Grunt shines in the first and third game. Game 2 I see no hate piece, get him to 6 life but he comboes me out.

Mono Blue Control (0-2): A very unexpected deck, with 20+ counters, Jace and Shackles. I don't know what he's playing and wait to drop Revokers game 1. He eventually controls the game. Game 2 he Forces my first turn vial, Spell Snares my revoker, get my sick Mother of Runes with Sower of Temptation, and beat me down with a Sower of Temptation while countering my fliers.

Overall a good result, but I still need to learn how to sideboard against some matches. But I'm feeling more and more comfortable with the deck.

Nidd

04-05-2011, 07:21 PM

Piloting Zoo at my last tournament, I realized that while my approach to the deck was pretty legit, I often tried to act a bit too controllish and that's not really how the deck works.
After getting hold of a playset french Stoneforge Mystics (yeah, I'm a sucker for french cards. deal with it.), I decided it's about time to build something akin to the Green and Taxes lists I've seen floating around these forums.
This is my take of the deck and I'd be happy to get some feedback from the more experienced players concerning both the list and my individual cardchoices.

// Lands
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Savannah
3 Razorverge Thicket
1 Karakas
1 Plains
2 Forest

// Creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Mother of Runes
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Terravore
2 Mangara of Corondor

// Spells
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 AEther Vial

As for the manabase, I think 6 Fetches are enough. From what I've seen, DnT decks often play the control role against opposing Aggro decks and playing too many fetches kinda contradicts that plan. Thus, I added Razorverge Thickets to help out with color stability, though it makes me a bit more susceptible to Wasteland. Running Temple Gardens is a no-go for me, since this would contradict with what I said about Fetchlands and Aggro.

I have come to love Noble Hierarch. She does so much - she makes Daze a much worse card against you, helps out with equipping and can even get into the red zone if the need to do so arises. And she improves GSZ by a ton.
Mother of Runes is a very annoying card to deal with, she protects equipped dudes and she's a staple of this archetype, from what I know. From the games where I've had to play against her, I can say she's incredibly potent and a worthy inclusion.
Qasali Pridemage as a 4-of because Enchantress is a deck where I play, as is Affinity - and Exalted is pretty good when you have a Goyf-stall or when a huge Terravore shows up.
Only 3 Goyf because he's just not as powerful as he was before - however, he's still one of the most solid creatures in this format and a threat by himself. Plus, Goyf + Equipment = sad opponent.
3 SFM because she's CA and the equipments play a big role in the deck. Having access to one and providing a body for it is huge. However, drawing more than necessary usually isn't the best.
KotR is big, toolboxes and beats face. Nothing more to add here, she's pretty much Tarmogoyf 2.0.
The Terravore is in there as an answer to Knight-stalls and as a lategame-trump.
Mangara is recurring removal and furthers my manadenial-plan. She also deals with Jace at times.

StP shouldn't need an explanation. I chose it over PtE because at times attacking my opponents manabase is the best way to approach a MU and stabilizing it is pretty bad. The lifegain isn't the end of the world.
Oblivion Ring as a 1-of for a possible E Tutor target, should I utilize such a SB. It also answers Jace and Elspeth or that huge KotR on the other side of the table.

Jitte and SoFaI are my weapons of choice when it comes to equipment - Jitte is Jitte and SoFaI gives me relevant protection + removal against tribal decks + card draw.
GSZ adds a punch to the deck for the long games and can tutor up anything from solutions for pesky artifacts/enchantments (Qasali Pridemage), to big dumb dudes (KotR/Goyf/TVore). It also ups my Gaddock Teeg count, should I feel the need to bring them in.
Elspeth as a 1-of pretty much serves the same purpose as Terravore - she's a card that can singlehandedly turn a game around just by showing up. She provides me with bodies for my equipments and she can give my dudes evasion.
Vial was a logical inclusion, as I wanted to utilize Mangara and it gives me the ability to aggressively tutor for Wastelands with my KotRs.

As for the SB, Gaddock Teeg, some GY Hate, Ethersworn Canonist, Krosan Grips, Kitchen Finks, Choke, Enlightened Tutor - everything is possible.

Some of the DnT/GnT players got some input for me?

Koby

04-05-2011, 07:58 PM

Nidd

04-05-2011, 08:17 PM

Why not run Horizon Canopy in place of Razor Thicket? Seems like a perfect balance between color needs and late-game utility; with the added bonus of boosting your KoTR.

Also, in this metagame, I wouldn't run a maindeck _&Taxes w/o Canonist.
I have played Canopy in Zoo before but I wasn't very impressed by it. I mainly used it as a painland, which dealt 2-4 damage to me over the course of a game, more if I faced manadenial and I suppose that's way too much when you don't have the removaldensity of Zoo - maybe I'm not using it correctly? I always drop them last (except if I need to dig for something/want to bait a Wasteland) and cycle them when I run out of cards in hand.

My metagame is a bit different from the american metagame - here are far less combo players than seem to be in your regular Opens and other tournaments. Or are refering to the Mother + Canonist "softlock"?

_erbs_

04-05-2011, 10:55 PM

@Nidd
hello i play GnT and tried several build with it but i eventually came back to my original list

Lands [21]
1 Forest
1 Gaea's Cradle
2 Plains
2 Karakas
4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
1 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland
2 Horizon Canopy

Creatures [28]
3 Mother of Runes
3 Noble Hierarch
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Serra Avenger
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Mangara of Corondor
2 Mirran Crusader
3 Knight of the Reliquary

Spells [11]
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

I've tried GsZ with fauna shaman with the iona combo i didn't liked it as it was weak in terms of aggro power. Yes it gave me a soft lock and made mangara effective when opponents waists there removal to mother and fauna or visa versa i can combo out with iona.

As for gameplay.. for me DT and GT are totally different. DT is more controlish as compared to GT well maybe because of my build but DT innately has better control elements i feel. A suggestion i could tell you is that try to make your GT a more aggro shell as compared to controlish. If you really like to have a DT feel of gameplay in a GT shell try to run 3 quirion ranger / scryb ranger.

I think horizon canopy is much better over razor ticket

LegacyInferno

04-07-2011, 02:04 AM

here is my current build, I am still tweaking it a bit, but so far I am really impressed and happy with this build.

Artifacts:
4 x Aether Vial*
2 x Umezawa’s Jitte*
1 x Sword of Fire and Ice

Creatures:
4 x Mother of Runes
4 x Qasali Pridemage
2 x Gaddock Teeg
4 x Tarmagoyf*
4 x Mangara of Corondor
4 x Knight of the Reliquary*

Spells:
4 x Swords to Plowshares*
2 x Elspeth, Knight-Errant*

Lands:
4 x Savannah
3 x Windswept Heath
1 x Wooded Foothillls
4 x Horizon Canopy
2 x Maze of Ith
3 x Karakas
2 x Forest
2 x Plains
4 x Wasteland

*denotes either foil or foreign.

LegacyInferno

04-07-2011, 02:04 AM

_erbs_

04-14-2011, 02:49 AM

Guys what do you think of this GT build..

thanks

Lands [21]
4 windswept heath
2 horizon canopy
4 savannah
3 plains
2 karakas
4 wasteland
2 rishadan port

Creatures [24]
3 mother of runes
3 weathered wayfarer
3 serra avenger
3 qasali pridemage
3 stoneforge mystic
3 tarmogoyf
2 phyrexian revoker
2 managara of corondor
2 knight of the reliquary

Spells [15]
4 aether vial
4 swords to plowshares
2 path to exile
1 umezawa's jitte
1 sword of fire and ice
1 sword of light and shadow
2 sensei's divinning top

Sideboard [15]
4 leyline of sanctity
1 bojuka bog
1 tormods crypt
2 ethersworn canonist
2 gaddock teeg
2 krosan grip
2 leonin arbiter
1 pithing needle

nwong

04-14-2011, 03:12 AM

@Nidd
As for gameplay.. for me DT and GT are totally different. DT is more controlish as compared to GT well maybe because of my build but DT innately has better control elements i feel. A suggestion i could tell you is that try to make your GT a more aggro shell as compared to controlish. If you really like to have a DT feel of gameplay in a GT shell try to run 3 quirion ranger / scryb ranger.
t

Well to be fair, it doesn't have to be DnT = Control, GnT = Aggro. GnT has pretty good control tools too. Obviously you lose the Port denial plan but stuff like Teeg and Pridemage are very disruptive in their own right.

Fry

04-14-2011, 10:56 AM

TYhe two of path with the wastelands and two ports seems counter productive me

mrjumbo03

04-15-2011, 07:00 AM

*My touerney report, copy and pasted from the other forum...

Runed Halo... is it still worth a slot in the sb? I'm starting to lose faith in this card... I went 3rd in a 55 man tourney and not once did I consider bringing in this card... My list is same as Finn's except -1 plains, -2 oust, +3 arbiters (it seems I'm the only one left loving this card, I dropped this when the new set came out and I really did miss it)

First Round: Spanish Inquisition Belcher (0-2)
G1: 3rd turn he goes off...
G2: He goes off turn 1... Had he not, I probably would've won because I had Enlightened Tutor into Null Rod... and he didn't side anything... Oh well...

Second Round: Affinity (2-0)
G1: He goes first turn dude equipped with plating... I play revoker on plating... He played another plating next turn so thank god for revoker... I flickerwisp his dude with the plating but he plays a Tezz 2.0 next turn making the plating 5/5 and swinging me down to 1... Next turn played a Jitte, attacked his Tezz with my revoker and managed to win from there... I remember blocking the 5/5 plating with my grunt and shooting it with a jitte counter...
G2: He has another first turn dude + equip the plating opening... I play a plains and pass... He plays another land and drops his final card a frogmite... I tutored eot for Serenity and he got hella sad... I take another swing + from the frogmite going down to 5 or 6... Serenity blows up his entire field and I win from there...

Third Round: Dredge (2-0)
G1: Really lucky that I managed to assemble a mother of runes and Serra Avenger and Jitte (oh I had a vial this game) before he hit his first Narcomoeba... I think he got too excited that he failed to see I can shoot my own mother of runes to remove the bridges and that's game...
G2: Turn1 enlightened tutor for wheel in response to Cabal Therapy which would have been the optimum play had my opponent known my deck (because I would assume that he would name Tutor), turns out he didn't and he had breakthrough in hand so he still got a hell of a lot of stuff in his yard that turn... again he lacked another creature to dread return Iona, I tried to help him because I had Karakas in hand hehe but he really lacked creatures, I think he only had 1 Bridge in the yard... To make matters worse... After I played wheel, the turn after I topdecked Relic of Progenitus...

Fourth Round: Rock (2-1)
G1: Uninteresting game as he managed to Hymn me and hit 2 lands from my hand turn 2, and I think I drew my 2nd land five turns later...
G2: Tables turned because this time, he couldn't find a white source even after so many times he topped... Won easily
G3: I think he got scared of getting screwed out of a color by wasteland (happened g2) that he fetched for his basics... but then I got port and proceeded to port his green mana for forever... I even managed to play revoker on deed and I knew he had one because he threw his Confidant on it when I attacked with 2 revokers (other one was naming Kotr) but I had flickerwisp in hand so I got to change the other revoker to deed... He played explosives on 2 and managed to get a wasteland and destroyed my port and got to deed me (this sequence took a lot of turns) but he was down to 1... Next turn I played Serra Avenger and he didn't have an answer...

Fifth Round: Ant (2-1)
G1: I figured he would be some kind of combo because of the way he was looking at his hand in the opening and how long it took him to decide to play, so I wasteland his first land and swung my mothers at him... He still managed to adnaus at 14 I think was at 3 only and still needed to find the Infernal tutor and could've still died to a reveal but he got the tutor before a 1 cost spell...
G2: I play canonist turn 2 and it stalls him real hard... I managed to draw an enlightened tutor and got thorn of amethyst next turn... He got frustrated because he had the kill (he had deathmark in his hand and would've won next turn because he had already sculpted his hand)...
G3: I keep a hand with Thorn but he durresses it away... I figured he would definitely have the first turn discard and my hand was pretty good (had a vial, mother, leonin arbiter, wasteland, and i think a plains) so I said what the hell... Played vial t1 then t2 played arbiter with vial on 1 so i can put mother into play... He had disfigure for my arbiter (but he used it on his turn) so I started to get worried... Managed to wasteland him and put an avenger into play... I draw an arbiter which was golden as he had an uncracked delta with 3 lands in play (but I had a port that kept one of his lands busy always... I fight the urge to put down the grunt in hand because he might respond with the delta so I settled with an Avenger swinging... When he was down to 8, he thinks for a long long time, and thinks he got it, he cracks his fetch, in response I tap vial, and play enlightened tutor to get my canonist and put it on top, he doesn't nudge because he can win that turn, but when I put the arbiter to play, he got frustrated again because now he was gonna lack mana... Thinks for a long long time again trying to figure a way out... I asked the passing judge for time left and kept looking at my watch because he really was thinking too long... and he just goes through with it and shakes my hand afterwards...

Sixth Round: Merfolk (2-0)
G1: He goes first and dazes my vial, I wasn't worried because I had another in hand... Played it 2nd turn and drew another on the third turn so I had a vial on 2 and 3... I think his board was 2 adepts (showed atlantis twice), 1 cursecatcher 1 island, 1 mutavault, 1 wasteland... I managed to port his island on the turn he draw an Island so he still couldn't play his Lord, I then put mangara into play, and managed to Mangara-Flickerwisp one of his islands before his turn... The turn after I plopped down Karakas, and even if he had wasteland, I would still get another Island and return Mangara to hand so he just packs his cards
G2: This was a game for the ages... Lots of godlike topdecks (he topdecks a Jitte when he was dead next turn, I topdeck an Oring for his Jitte - but he managed to spell pierce and daze it as I only had 2 mana extra,me topdecking a flickerwisp for his threads on my Grunt and the best of all, me topdecking a revoker with the game getting out of hand because of his freaking jitte) and lots of tight plays on my part I think (me Karakas-ing his Kira after he pays 4 to equip his jitte - I think he didn't notice it, or he was banking on me not noticing it because he really needed to get counters on it, me porting one of his 2 lands during his attack phase so he couldn't equip Jitte to his other creature that he left for D, me playing another grunt and letting the first one die with the upkeep trigger of the second one on the stack so the second one will have enough to eat)... The last moments of the game had him on 2 mutavaults, one of which i tapped when it tried to attack with the jitte (it had 1 counter on it), and he was at 2 life, and me having only a mother of runes... I topdeck a revoker and casually tap my vial and ask if it's good... He says go and I drop revoker naming Jitte preventing him from responding any further... Mother swings he activates his muta and I tap it, so he goes to 1... he didn't draw a creature so next turn I attack with both creatures, he activates both mutas and I tap one yet again and he offers his hand...

3rd after Swiss and the top8 decided to not play out and just draft the duals by standing...

Overall I really really think that I played the tightest I could and it showed in the result... I actually lamented during the first round because after I was beaten so fast, I had time to scout the field and much to my shock, the room was full of combo so I was feeling a little down after the first round because combo is very hard but I managed to scrape through... The report might be missing some stuff but I'm just trying to write this down from memory...

This deck really rewards tight play as small incremental advantages would pile up and lead to games won in the end...

Rave: Saw the reaction of an opponent playing affinity after I searched and played Serenity
Rant: Didn't get to see the reaction of an opponent playing burn after I search and play Warmth haha

mrjumbo03

04-15-2011, 07:01 AM

xifre

04-15-2011, 10:27 AM

nice report.. Are you from the philippines? Because the tournament I played in also did not play the Top8 but decided to just get the duals, as you said, by their standings.. just wondering.. hehe.. :P

Fry

04-15-2011, 04:27 PM

You are by far not the only one who give the arbiter love, my friend and I who play D&T love that card for what it does to people with fetches, which is pretty much everyone.

a-slice-of-cake

04-19-2011, 03:26 PM

I've seen the deck a lot, and being a Canadian Thresh player, I just don't see why I'd want to run it. I like the newer versions that go GW for Knight, Qasali, Goyf, and occasionally Terravore; that makes the aggro package of the deck a lot better. But why burden what could be an excellent W or GW vial aggro deck that has such stars as Jotun Grunt (who, by the way, is a BOSS), Serra Avenger, Goyf, and Knight with gimmicky, slow shenanigans like Mangara of Condor and Weathered Wayfarer? Back when I was seeing Flickerwisp I could understand because Flickerwisp ruins a lot of tempo against opposing vial decks and EE, but the deck seems like it's spread too thin and could become a lot scarier if it focused on outright killing the enemy.

Remember, all the testing I've done of the deck has been over MWS. I'm saying this as a Canadian Thresh player who has only lost one game and no matches to D&T, and that was due to a triple-Wasteland draw (which could've happened against folk/goblins/mirror as well). I've always loved the concept, but the execution...

Finn

04-21-2011, 08:40 PM

Well, that was unsolicited. I hope that I don't have to tell you what MWS has to offer. But Canadian Threshold? Srsly? That's pretty funny.

Good one.

Really.
---------------------------------
Also, look to Phyrexian Metamorph as a tutorable solution to Emrakul and Progenitus. Only problem is that it will almost never be faster than a sorcery.

a-slice-of-cake

04-22-2011, 05:15 AM

Look, clearly you guys see or know something that I just don't get. I want to understand it because I really like White-based aggro strategies. And yeah, I know MWS sucks, but I also know what games I win that I shouldn't (on MWS, it's a lot).

I wanted someone to explain to me how I'm wrong, not laugh at my deck choice even though it's made paste out of every D&T player I've faced off against. And you do know it's coming back, right? Get with the program.

In any case: Please tell me which parts of my analysis were incorrect. I'm not being sarcastic or snarky -- I want to find a reason to build this deck, but I just can't justify it right now.

nwong

04-22-2011, 05:44 AM

It would help if we had the list the DnT pilot was using. The pilot(s) you're facing probably have suboptimal decklists, or are not very experienced with the deck.

I can speak from experience that I find the Canadian Thresh matchup very hard to lose.

Also, Mangara is one of the best cards in the deck.

eq.firemind

04-22-2011, 05:45 AM

Also, look to Phyrexian Metamorph as a tutorable solution to Emrakul and Progenitus. Only problem is that it will almost never be faster than a sorcery.
Hly shit, it is PERFECT.
Emrakul is solvable, Prog is harder but clearly not autoloss.
But both in one deck are very hard 'cause MD answers to Emmy (Karakas, O-Ring, Mangara) do nothing to Prog. Thus, Sneak and Show matchup was only a little better than Storm.
But now I have a solution that only takes 1 slot in sideboard. Man, that is awesome!

gimmicky, slow shenanigans like Mangara of Condor and Weathered Wayfarer?
A possibility of Mangara lock opens the whole new way to attack opponent's gameplan. This element allows you to switch from aggro to control and vice versa, which is one of the cornerstones of this deck.

Also, after being exiled by Mangara in game one, opponent will focus on breaking the lock in game two. This doesn't 100% work on prepaired opponent, but the deck (at least mono-w) is extremely rare.

Threat of Mangara lock damages opponent's gameplan even if he is aware of it.

Back when I was seeing Flickerwisp I could understand because Flickerwisp ruins a lot of tempo against opposing vial decks and EE, but the deck seems like it's spread too thin and could become a lot scarier if it focused on outright killing the enemy.
Flickerwisp does much more than you think (and even more if you have Vial with 3 counters). Only experience will teach you, but believe me, this card has endless applications.
Few examples:
1) Laugh at Phyrexian Dreadnought.
2) Laugh at Chalice of the Void
3) Blink your own land. Nice tempo gain. Wisp => untap your Wasteland = screw opponent's mana while establishing board position.
4) Evasion is important when you want to deliver equipments into opponent's face.
5) Vial at 3 + Flickerwisp.
5a) Save your creature from removal.
5b) Blink your Mangara in responce to his ability.

I want to understand it because I really like White-based aggro strategies.
This is actually your huge mistake. D&T is not an aggro deck.
The ability to switch from aggro to control (depending on current opponent and current gamestate) is one of the main things you should learn.
Goyfs, Pridemages and KotR are good for aggro, but they all and color splashing in general hurt deck's ability to switch roles (IMHO). That's why I'm playing mono-w.

a-slice-of-cake

04-22-2011, 08:30 AM

Thanks, Firemind, for actually answering my post instead of going "Look at how smug I'm being toward this new dude, that makes me so cool." I'd always thought of D&T as an aggro deck because in my mind, Vial equated to aggro, end of discussion.

By the way, I didn't phrase myself well the first time -- I LOVE Flickerwisp. I want more decks in Legacy to play him. Dude's a house, and this is the best deck for him. I honestly don't understand why anyone playing this style of deck would exclude him.

As a Blue Tempo player, I can understand the balance between Aggro and Control the deck tries to achieve now. Well, not so much the balance between them as the modularity of being able to change strategies on a dime. That's the main difference I see between Thresh/Team America/etc. and D&T; D&T switches between the two as needed, whereas blue tempo seeks to achieve both simultaneously. As a result, D&T has a lot more threats (yay!) but less ways of reacting quickly while trying to siege the opponent (boo!).

How does this "Mangara lock" work? I know the trick about bouncing with Karakas or otherwise blinking him with the ability on the stack, but it seems so fragile against any deck packing spot removal or permission. Plus, you can't always count on Mom resolving or living. I guess Mangara and Wayfarer are my main hangups with the deck; I know they're powerful, but they just feel so clunky and situational in scenarios where you don't clearly have the upper hand.

One last thing: Why are you all having good matchups against Can Thresh? Looking at our removal suite, permission, and shroudy or big threats, it seems like it should be tough, especially postboard when we get rid of some of the weaker permission like Daze and put in Firespout and Pithing Needle. Maybe most Can Thresh players have terrible boards... I have to admit, the average can thresh player I see in a tournament doesn't know what the hell he's doing beyond the basics, and the board is hard to build.

EDIT: When I stop being a sleep-dep zombie I'll proxy up a non-Mangara non-Wayfarer version that's a little more aggro-ey and see how/if it works.

nwong

04-22-2011, 08:52 AM

You have the Mangara lock down correctly. As for removal and permission, that isn't too big of a problem.

With removal, the deck is full of must-kill targets so they'll have a hard time killing everything. Mum and Mangara are 2 good examples. Obviously if they have a LOT of removal (ie Zoo or something similar) then it's not too great.

Permission can be approached the same way. You can just bait their counters with other creatures and play the Mangara last - or even play it first and force them to counter it and clear the way for something like stoneforge mystic.

All in all, the "clunkiness" can be avoided by just playing it intelligently, or knowing what really matters in the particular matchup.

I agree with you on wayfarer though. It doesn't fit the deck, and not many people use it. It fits better in UW tempo.

As for Can Thresh, your threats are goose, clique, and goyf usually. If we resolve a vial early, we're far ahead already. If not, we benefit from the fact that thresh doesn't run a lot of threats. Typical builds usually run 10-12 creatures, if I'm not mistaken. As a contrast, my DnT list runs 27 creatures. Sure, you can remove things and counter a lot of things, but a lot of the time we're given time to find and land a threat before thresh kills us.

Firespout can be played around by not overextending. Thresh doesn't have a lot of threats so we only really need 1 or 2 creatures (especially if we have an equip) to win.

eq.firemind

04-22-2011, 09:02 AM

How does this "Mangara lock" work? I know the trick about bouncing with Karakas or otherwise blinking him with the ability on the stack, but it seems so fragile against any deck packing spot removal or permission. Plus, you can't always count on Mom resolving or living. I guess Mangara and Wayfarer are my main hangups with the deck; I know they're powerful, but they just feel so clunky and situational in scenarios where you don't clearly have the upper hand.
Firs of all, I play mono-w with Ports (don't like G-splash, described above), so all my conclusions are correct only for classic version of the deck.

@ Wayfarer: I don't play him. I tried in the past, wasn't satisfied at all and dismissed. Once in a month or two I reassemble list with it and give it a little spin (I actually do this with all questionable cards). Conclusion is the same every time: I don't want to see it in my 75. This doesn't mean that the card is bad or bad in this deck. Maybe it's my personal preference, maybe I feel more comfortable with other cards, but my decision is clear.
Other people play Wayfarer and feel good about him. You should try to ask them.

@ Mangara: Yep, you are correct, Karakas+Mangara is the lock and blinking Mangara with Wisp is card advantage. And yes, it's fragile.
But here come many 'if's which you can only learn from experience.

Some examples:
1) You use Mangara's ability, respond it with Karaks', opponent casts removal. Mangara's target will be exiled, Mangara dies, opponent lost a permanent and removal. Clear 2-for-1 to us.
2) You should Vial Mangara at the end of opp's turn (better when he tapped out) or when yo have untapped Karakas. Pretty basic, but it really helps against removal.
Vial neglects countermagic, Mom, flickeblinks and right moment protect from removal, you can realistically draw second mangara after they deal with first one (this deck can play long game),...

This deck is far more complex and have shitload of small unobvious situational interractions, tricks and synergies. At the first glance, they all are weak, unimportant and are not worth the trouble, but in fact they win games.

One last thing: Why are you all having good matchups against Can Thresh? Looking at our removal suite, permission, and shroudy or big threats, it seems like it should be tough, especially postboard when we get rid of some of the weaker permission like Daze and put in Firespout and Pithing Needle.
We can trade guys, removal and counters, but and manadenial plan often works against Can Thresh (remember: I play monowhite with 11 Plains and no fetches) and DnT runs cards which deny lots of your deck once you let them resolve (like Aether Vial > counterspells and Mother of Runes > removal).
From my expirience, MU should be equal if it were not 3 Jotun Grunt in our 60 (and often 4 post-side). White giant is very hard to deal with.

Maybe most Can Thresh players have terrible boards... I have to admit, the average can thresh player I see in a tournament doesn't know what the hell he's doing beyond the basics, and the board is hard to build.
Average DnT player in MWS doesn't know even basics =).

Finn

04-22-2011, 11:38 AM

@Cake: I did not mean to impugn your deck. The absurdity of the MWS results were my aim.

The Tempo Threshold matchup for D+T comes down to running them out of cards. If Tempo Threshold can land a turn 1 Mongoose and follow it up with a Tarmo while removing/countering your measures for the next six turns, you are going to lose. In my experience, this scenario is a tiny minority of games.

There are a lot of things that help. Here are some of them.

1. Mana denial: more than any other opponent, Tempo Threshold is the one I see Wastelanding my Rishadan Ports - it speaks to how vulnerable they are. I have 4 of each in my build, so I have a rule: no green on their main phase whenever possible. Typically, they fetch a Tropical, use it once, and lose it to Wasteland or continuous Porting. When Tempo Thresh is searching for land with Brainstorms and Ponders and Wasting my Ports, it is backpedaling on its primary goal. It is very effective to put a tempo opponent in this position.
2. Jotun Grunt is a card which that deck has no single answer for except a counterspell. They have to trick you into exposing it to something like a Mongoose block and a bolt or Fire//Ice x 2 or some such. Late in the game, they usually have a single turn to attack with any Tarmos before you have them beat. It is a tremendous tool.
3. He has to counter your Mystics too. They are card advantage, the equipment they fetch is hard to solve, and he "vials" them in. He has to counter any equipment you topdeck as well.
4. Oh, and he has to counter your Aether Vial.
5. And Mangara also. An untapped Karakas makes him a 2-1 even if they have removal waiting for him to avoid the lock.
6. And Swords to Plowshares too. I also have Oust.
7. Mother of Runes has to be countered or killed on sight or it will be an endless pain that ultimately 2-1's them anyway.
8. Flickerwisp is nothing special in this matchup, but if you have an active Vial, it is still probably going to 2-1 them by doing what it does.

There are a lot of subtle things as well, but you get the point. Tempo Threshold has a hard time playing against D+T because most of the time it winds up playing D+T's game instead of its own. It hates to see so many of our cards, and the whole deck 2-1's them right down to Force of Will. Siding in Krosan Grip and extra Firespouts helps a bit, but it just is not enough most of the time.

LegacyDan

04-22-2011, 02:47 PM

ASOK, glad to finally see you on The Source. Welcome. I am sad though, I have been wanting to show you how the deck works on MWS for months now. These dudes have explained it pretty well to ya, I only really had a minor problem with one of fireminds comments. I basically gave up on testing D+T on MWS since most people can't even understand Mangara Cheese on there. An interesting recent option for D+T against Canadian Thresh is Mirran Crusader. Others on the thread may not like and/or use him, I however LOVE him in the red zone. He just does awesome things in combat, IE: 4 Jitte counters, dual sword activations, and pushing past a large portion of the critters on the field. And thanks to the new sword SoWaP he will be the to unstoppable in most situations.

On to the New Phyrexia goodness: Sword of War and Peace. The abilities are not as stellar as I was hoping for, but it appears to have to potential to consistantly deal damage quicker than SoFaI, and gain life as much as SoLaS. I LOVE the combination of Pro White/Red, its something that will help me GREATLY in my meta. I will be testing it in SoLaS's cardslot as soon as possible.

a-slice-of-cake

04-22-2011, 04:15 PM

Hey Dan, good to see you too.

Thanks for helping me understand this -- I have to say, the deck does a lot more than I realized. I must have gone up against people who just had no idea what they were doing with the deck because most of those situations I'd never even considered, let alone played against.

Fry

04-22-2011, 04:34 PM

I love playing Leonin Arbiter in the Mono White version since I think it has a much better mana denial plan and it allows you to effectively play the arbiter which shuts down so many cards or makes them waste mana on a fetch or stoneforge, or tutor, etc.

TheShaun

04-22-2011, 09:05 PM

The deck does a lot, and I've definitely fallen in love with it the past few months. However, I have to reluctantly say that I would not feel comfortable bringing this to a large tournament right now. It does many awesome things, but it doesn't really do anything "broken". This only becomes an issue when you are up against a deck that does pretty much 100% broken things, like TES, Dredge, or High Tide. Though these matchups are all definitely winnable, they are not in our advantage. I've been playing this deck exclusively for the past 3 months or so, and I don't think I have a single match loss outside of TES, Dredge, High Tide, and one against burn when I didn't expect it at all and had 0 sideboard cards ready.

With the current metagame being so heavily shifted towards combo, I just don't see how anybody would be able to navigate through all the rounds without just being beaten on turn 1 or 2 before any play that D&T can make matters. If the deck survives until turn 3/4 then it can definitely hate out any combo, but there is really no way to get there other than hope and or a lucky critical Wasteland.

So I think that this is going to be what I still rely on for smaller local tournaments, but until the combo menace calms down a bit, I don't think I'll be able to confidently play this in anything over 50 players. Honestly though, I hope one of you proves me to be wrong and wins a SCG Open or the GP with it. You earn a hug from me if so.

mrjumbo03

05-16-2011, 12:48 AM

Finn just made top 10 in the SCG Orlando Open with the monowhite build. Interestingly he went up to 4 Stoneforge Mystics.

TheShaun

05-16-2011, 03:59 PM

Finn just made top 10 in the SCG Orlando Open with the monowhite build. Interestingly he went up to 4 Stoneforge Mystics.

I saw this and was very happy to see it. I think the pendulum has briefly swung back to a place where this deck can excel, with the mid range blue decks holding combo in check. We eat merfolk alive, and have good game against Standstill and Team America. I'm not sure how long the meta will stay this way with so many high profile events, but I love it. Anybody know if he posted a report anywhere, or even just a list of decks he faced?

Finn

05-16-2011, 09:27 PM

Gimme a few days for the report. I took some notes. I had to change my entire strategy for Merfolk (faced em 3 times in 8 rds) because of Misstep. I want to see how good that Landstill deck really is that Gerry and Lewis were playing before I come out to say that D+T is good right now. I think I had the only deck in the top 16 that was not blue. It is pretty frightening.

mrjumbo03

05-17-2011, 12:39 AM

You and the 2 Metalworker decks. Looking forward to your reports!

As to the standstill matchup, I think it depends on the build that we're facing. Decks with Humility and Pernicious Deed and sometimes Engineered Explosives (with Academy Ruins recursion at that) is an impossible matchup. But at least combo, the other bane of our lives, is being pushed back by all the Misstep Hysteria.

Finn

05-18-2011, 12:34 AM

Report
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20886-REPORT-SCG-Orlando-Open-2011&p=548612#post548612

lavafrogg

05-18-2011, 03:55 AM

Finn! I am so proud of you, lol. Way to do you and your boys proud, i'm still sorry i missed it:( Did anyone else place high?

Finn

05-19-2011, 09:26 AM

Phill did very well with Zoo, but he got the shaft from his record-keeping goof-up. Then he got anal-raped by Merfolk of all things in the final round to take the wind out of his sails.Both D+T and Zoo were good meta choices at Orlando.

lord09

05-19-2011, 02:13 PM

Nice report Finn. Just a quick question to you and all other experienced players.

This has always been one of my favorite decks, but I play exclusively online where port is not available sadly and doesn't look like it's gonna be released any time this year. Since it's so integral to the mana denial plan, how would you change/adapt your deck to lack of port availability?

LegacyDan

05-19-2011, 02:36 PM

Just a quick question Finn, why SoLaS over Sword of War and Peace?

AggroSteve

05-19-2011, 05:29 PM

i know the question goes to finn, but as i think SoLaS > sword of war and peace, because we allready have a sword for more aggression, namely sword of fire and ice, thus making sword of war and peace less interesting, and sword of light and shadow actually gives card advantage as does fire/ice, .... sword of war and peace does not

i could see sword of war and peace being used over sword of light and shadow if the meta would be zoo-infested, otherwise i would see no reason for running sword of war and peace at all

Maëlig

05-19-2011, 05:57 PM

I think it's time to sleeve up the mindcensor again, with all the KotR, stoneforge, zenith and NO around. I've never liked the card too much because its power is obviously conditional on what the other guy's playing and there are better SB cards. But I'm giving it a second chance, in the flickerwisp slot which I've always found lackluster except with vial.

Finn

05-24-2011, 10:22 AM

I don't know, Maelig. Flickerwisp is even better now with Revokers. (You are playing Revokers, aren't you?) I am so accustomed to having my Vials countered that I think of the instant Flickerwisp plays as a bonus, and I still would not leave home without them. In my eyes the deck finally has a solid 60.

Maëlig

05-24-2011, 11:44 AM

Yeah revoker has been amazing, I'm now playing a full playset MD. Still think it's not enough to make wisp better than mindcensor in the current metagame. It helps in the worse MUs (combo, anything packing NO) and contributes to the mana denial plan. But most importantly, it seems everyone and their mother is playing zenith and/or knight (and to a lesser extent stoneforge) nowadays, and mindcensor gives us this little edge we need to beat these decks (which are usually around 50/50). I've also seen quite a few loam decks in my meta lately (probably thanks to the popularity of tempo decks packing MM), which is also a difficult MU where mindcensor helps a lot. I've liked it so far.

mrjumbo03

05-24-2011, 12:08 PM

tsabo_tavoc

05-24-2011, 12:40 PM

Maëlig

05-24-2011, 01:12 PM

I play Arbiter and to a certain extent it does the same thing. Problem with Mindcensor for me, is its 3cc compared to 2 for Arbiter. Regarding the Revokers, I play 3 Main and the 4th one on the side, I decided would much better be a Pithing Needle for the corner case scenarios of needing to needle a land.
I have not tested arbiter, mainly because I have a green splash and wayfarer + fetches don't go well with it. You still have a negative synergy with stoneforge in the mono-W lists, but that's minor enough to be tolerable I guess. The main problem with it though, is that if your opponent really needs that jitte, he'll just wait a turn or two to cast his stoneforge. Also, flash and flying matters. You could try it I guess, but my feeling is that mindcensor > arbiter unless you commit a lot more to the mana denial plan with ghost quarter and / or PtE, which is a bad idea imo because those cards are pretty meh without arbiter.

MM is indeed something to consider, but I don't think we want it. Imo, it fits two type of decks / strategies : tempo decks (TT, TA, merfolk, possibly zoo), and decks which get really crippled by certain 1cc spells (merfolk again, landstill, reanimator, possibly zoo again, ...). I don't think D&T belongs to any of these two categories, so I don't find MM particularly appealing in the deck.

Koby

05-24-2011, 01:18 PM

Would anyone consider playing Mental Misstep in DnT?

I tested a handful of games against UGr NO (with 4 MMS) and it feels 4-6 in their favor. I lost each time Progenitus came down as the deck is not good at punching through early damage to enable a race by an equipped flyer. Mindcensor should improve the MU and being a flyer, it feels generally better than Arbiter. Is the Flickerwisp VS Mindcensor a metagame choice? Any comments on their shining MUs?

Did you know that Burrenton Forge-tender Fogs Progenitus? Runes Halo also stops it completely, and with an active SoLaS and BFT, you can indefinitly fog Progenitus. Just some ideas n how to deal with Progenitus.

lorddotm

05-24-2011, 01:20 PM

Did you know that Burrenton Forge-tender Fogs Progenitus? Runes Halo also stops it completely, and with an active SoLaS and BFT, you can indefinitly fog Progenitus. Just some ideas n how to deal with Progenitus.

Tendrils is a much better way to deal with Progenitus.

A lot of decks should not be getting to 4 mana against DnT.... It might actually be viable to Swords a Noble (definitely viable to Oust one).

Fry

05-30-2011, 01:23 AM

Granted the last I played this deck was before New Phyrexia came out, but I was thinking of maybe using it next time I go to a tourney, but I think that sowap is not as good as solas because of the card advantage thing was previously mentioned. I also think that Batterskull could potentially be an interesting addition to the deck (I play a mono white version) with a set of stoneforges. Since I have yet to test it with the New Phyrexia out I am only saying what I think, not what I know. However I do know that Leonin arbiter is a house and just shuts down so many cards, kotr, stoneforge, fetches, NO, GSZ, and there are other, less common deck searches out there like land grant. I also advocate the use of Jotun Grunt if not main(which would be ridiculous if you aren't runningat least 2 if not 3 main) then at the very least in the side, again as already mentioned in several previous posts. The revokers are amazing I play 3 main and 1 side. Personally I don't think that my 76 (I play 61 main, I know, I know, but I can't figure out what to cut for the last card, that and it works quite well) will be changing because of New Phyrexia's release.

Penguinizer

06-01-2011, 06:09 PM

I'm looking for SB cards. I decided that Cataclysm has too high of a CMC. That leaves me 2 cards. Here's my SB:

3x Wing Shards
3x Enlightened tutor
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Pithing Needle
1x Wheel of the Sun and Moon
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Oblivion Ring
2x empty slot

My Maindeck is:
10x Plains
3x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland
4x Karakas

4x Mother of Runes
3x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Jötun Grunt
4x Serra Avenger
4x Leonin Arbiter
3x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Flickerwisp
3x Mangara of Corondor

4x Aether Vial
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
1x Sword of Fire and Ice

mrjumbo03

06-01-2011, 09:48 PM

Null Rod and/or Serenity I think could deserve slots depending on your meta.

from Cairo

06-05-2011, 10:35 PM

Null Rod and/or Serenity I think could deserve slots depending on your meta.

I like Kataki, War's Wage better versus Affinity - it shouldn't disable/destroy our own Vials and Equipment. You could run 2 in the last slots if that's a meta concern.

I think Serenity is passable in the SB, since it's brought in against decks it will hurt much more than it hurts DnT. I can't really get behind Null Rod though it blanks too much in this deck even if it does provide a powerful effect.

Thorn of Amethyst, an extra Pithing Needle or Aura of Silence could be good silver bullet options if you're looking to have broader application (Enchantress, Combo, Landstill, etc).

mrjumbo03

06-05-2011, 11:03 PM

Kataki would be awesome if he was an artifact or equment because of the enlightened tutors in the board. As it stands, there are 4 Pseudo Null Rods, and 4 Pseudo Serenities in the board. Moreover, you bring in Null Rods against decks that are totally wrecked by it, and so losing the use of your vials and/or equipments wouldn't matter as much because you are in a way superior position to win.

Null Rod against Storm Combo goes a long way too.

Micki

06-06-2011, 04:27 AM

I haven't played this deck for a while but I'm thinking of putting it back together. I have found Phyrexian Metamorph to be very good in other decks where I use a Tutor SB, it takes care of opponents Progenitus, Jitte, Iona... or it can just give you a of copy any creature or artifact you (or your opponent) have. Has anybody tried Methamorph in a D&T list?

Finn

06-06-2011, 11:29 AM

Micki, I think most players now have one in their sideboards. You are right. It is pretty darned good. It is not perfect for its role, but it is close.

Jabari

06-07-2011, 04:12 PM

So I'm building DnT deck but with a budget mana base. I have the core worked out but I can't decide what the last 10 MD cards should be in light of my restrictive mana base.

Here is what I have so far:

11 Plains
3 Ghost Quarter
4 Wasteland
2 Karakas
2 Windswept Heath

4 Flickerwisp
3 Mangara of Corondor
4 Mother of Runes
4 Serra Avenger
2 Jotun Grunt

4 Aether Vial
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Crucible of Worlds

4 Swords to Plowshares

Because I only have 2 Karakas I feel like I should go back to the Wayfarer builds of old, using the last 10 slots for 4 Weathered Wayfarer, 3 Stoneforge Mystic, 1 Sword of Feast and Famine, 2 Mirran Crusader.

Or I can try and focus on resource denial with the Ghost Quarters and run something like, 4 Phyrexian Revoker, 4 Leonin Arbiter, 2 Aven Mindcensor.

Thoughts? Suggestions?

tsabo_tavoc

06-07-2011, 06:50 PM

So I'm building DnT deck but with a budget mana base.

11 Plains
3 Ghost Quarter
4 Wasteland
2 Karakas
2 Windswept Heath

Plains > Windswept Heath, Mishra's Factory > Ghost Quarter. I'd suggest trade Heaths for a Karakas, or cut Karakas and Mangaras altogether.

Moosedog

06-27-2011, 09:17 AM

figured one of you guys would know:

when using vial for flickerwisp targeting mangara can you use mangara again the turn she comes back to play? as in when a creature removed from game does it come back with summoning sickness?

Justin

06-27-2011, 09:31 AM

No, you cannot. Mangara will come back sick when it is blinked.

mvilla888

07-01-2011, 09:19 AM

Does he earn a spot in the deck??? Spoiled today for M12 release.

Grand Abolisher
WW
Rare
Creature - Human Cleric
During your turn, your opponents can't cast spells or activate abilities of artifacts, creatures, or enchantments.
2/2

Have to admit I am intrigued by the deck...been out of the game for along time and am looking to play something in Cincy in a couple of weeks with some friends....D&T looks like a possibility.

LegacyDan

07-01-2011, 12:27 PM

I like him, but he doesn't grant the same protection on the other players turn. All they have to do is wait to draw and untap before slaying your dudes.

mvilla888

07-01-2011, 01:00 PM

agreed, but with the prevalence of blue in recent events (FoW, MM, Daze, etc) has to be at least considered for the deck to put so many dead cards in their hand. Sure, Zoo will laugh at him, but at least it keeps all other decks spending mana on their turn, rather then saving it to Brainstorm or such on your turn. I'm not jumping up and down saying it's an auto-include, but just something to keep in mind with the metagame shifts.

nwong

07-02-2011, 12:53 AM

The problem is, in terms of tempo, there is absolutely no difference between them Brainstorming or removing your creature in their turn or in yours. In that sense, it doesn't even slow them down. All it does is blank all their counters until they can remove it. The other big plus it offers is saving you from removal in response to equipping, which Mother already does most of the time.

AggroSteve

07-02-2011, 03:48 AM

i think that removal in response to equip is a big deal,.... it slows us down byat least one turn if not worse

i played a lot with this and agaisnt this deck as well, and i have found my creatures put only real pressure if equipped, otherwise they are to easy to handle, and if a creature would help preventing the opponent from removing in response to equip than i think that creature may deserve a slot, because it is not like we have mother every game

btw. what equips does everyone use right now?
i have the following

1 jitte
1 sofi
1 solas
1 soff

and i feel quite comfortable with it

K1w1

07-02-2011, 11:46 AM

Hey guys..
played today this deck in a 11-men-tournament and ranked 1st!

//lands (21)
1x Karakas
3x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland
13x Plains

//Creatures (25)
4x Mirran Crusader
4x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Flickerwisp
4x Mother of Runes
3x Mangara of Corondor
3x Jötun Grunt
3x Stoneforge Mystic

//Spells (7)
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Oblivion Ring

//Artifacts (7)
1x Sword of Body and Mind
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
1x Umezawa's Jitte
4x Aether Vial

//Sideboard (15)
4x Thorn of Amethyst
3x Tormod's Crypt
3x Leonin Arbiter
1x Umezawa's Jitte
2x Phyrexian Metamorph
2x Oust

Ok, here is my report.

Game 1: Enchantress
g1) Tapped out his utopia-sprawl-mana with 2 rishadan ports. I play and play. win!
g2) Lost against his red enchantment. He skipped his draw step and burned me 2dmg for each. lost
g3) double shroud enchantment + 4/4 flyer. lost

0/1

Game 2: Freewin ( 11 men tournament. lol )

1/1

Game 3: Zoo
This was the easiest one.
g1) 2 Mirran Crusader = dead. win
g2) Mangara + flickerwisp his red creatures + crusader + flyer. win

2/1

Game 4: LED-less Dredge

g1) Lost against Ichorids + Bridge -.-
g2) Crypt boarded - start hand crypt - remove = win
g3) this was funny. He had the chance to win, but he forgot to bring in his Ichorids and i finished with Jötun Grunt

3/1

Plateau <3

I was worry about only 1 Karakas and a SoBaM instead of SoFaI.

All in all, im happy about this and normally i would play 4 Karakas :D

AggroSteve

07-02-2011, 12:50 PM

i am very intrested in mirran crusader right now, since the meta slowed down a bit, he seems like he could be extremely awesome, only problem would be what to cut, and i would want at least 2 mirran crusader in my list

right now my list looks something like this

4x karakas
4x wasteland
3x rishadan port
10x plains (or 11x, don't know exactly havent got my deck with me)

4x mother of runes
3x stoneforge mystic ( +1 cutting a jötun in the future)
3x jötun grunt (-1 for the 4th stoneforge)
4x flickerwisp
4x serra avanger
3x mangara of corondor
4x phyrexian revoker

4x swords to plowshares
2-3x oblivion ring

4x äther vial
1x jitte
1x sword of fire and ice
1x sword of light and shadow
1x sword of feast and famine

my thoughts for the cuts were sword of feast and famine, and an oblivion ring for 2 mirran crusader, putting the sword to the sideboard
what do you guys think about it, specially about the crusader??

K1w1

07-02-2011, 01:33 PM

Mirran Crusader is awesome.
Ok, he can dying fast, but the thought he can be 1 round there ( maybe with a sword ) = epic because of double trigger sword. + prot black and green ( but green is shit^^ ) i'm actually playing him instead of serra avenger because i try to play SfM or jitte in turn 2 and avenger cant be there in turn 2. And i dont have luck with my vial every game in my start hand :P

But test it pls and show me/us your results. Thanks.

K1w1

AggroSteve

07-03-2011, 03:53 AM

well till now i allways loved serra avanger and i would never want to cut him, ....him being a flyer helps a lot with sword triggers and racing opponent thanks to vigiliance

but i will definitely test mirran crusader, but probably in place of the oblivion rings, ... i really like the sword of feast and famine, it gives a lot of tempo by untapping your lands again, and making opponent discard is not bad either

right now i have little to no time for testings,.... the last 2 exams for this year at university are coming and i have to learn..... but as soon as i got time i will test crusader

K1w1

07-03-2011, 04:22 AM

Well, Serra Avenger is awesome, too. But i wouldnt cut oblivion ring. Because of this:
a. Play Oblivion Ring.
b. When he came into the game EtB effect goes on the stack of Oblivion Ring.
c. In response to the EtB effect, activate the Aether Vial and brings into play a Flickerwisp.
d. When he came into the game, which goes from Flickerwisp EtB effect on the stack, you are aiming at the Oblivion Ring.
e. Oblivion ring is removed from the game and the corresponding "When Oblivion Ring leaves play ..."- effect goes on the stack. Because the effect has EtB away but still nothing, nothing happens.
f. The effect of Oblivion Ring Etb removes the targeted card.
g. At the end of your turn Oblivion Ring comes again into play.
h. The new EtB effect of Oblivion ring removes the targeted card.

So, you can exile 2 cards in 1. I really like it, because some are thinking:"That will never happen" but i got it really often.

I really don't know what to cut for Serra Avenger.
Thinking,thinking,thinking... i dont know...
What would you cut except of O-ring?

AggroSteve

07-03-2011, 05:13 AM

i am well aware of the applications of oblivion ring, but your example how to exile two permanents with flickerwisp, how often does that happen, .... out of a 100 games i only used that trick about 3 times, so i think it is very conditional
obviously it is awesome he can remove a emrakul from game

i am thinking that i am running 3 right now, so i thought of cutting all of em for the 2 mirran crusader and the 4th mangara, since i think mangara is way stronger than oblivion ring, specially with vial out, and of course a karakas
and of course the threat of a mangara lock often forces the opponent to remove him, allmost allways making mangara a 2 for 1 even without karakas

i think the mangara lock is far stronger than the conditional remove-two-permanents-application of oblivion ring

the other option i thought about cutting for the 2 mirran crusader were 1 oblivion ring and 1 sword of choice (probably feast and famine.... at least in my list)
i think the rest of the cards is too important but i could see going a 3/3 split with serra avanger and crusader but i would never go under 3 serra avanger, since he is one of the most aggressive creatures we have

did you ever drop 2 serra avanger at once?, the face of the opponent in that case is just awesome

in your case/list i would probably cut the following cards for serra avanger:

1x jötun (depends on meta)
1x oblivion ring (i do not think he is strong enough to deserve 3 slots)
1x mirran crusader / 1x flickerwisp (whichever you prefer)

in that case you will have room for 3 serra avanger, and still keep 3-4 flickerwisp and 3-4 mirran crusader

i have to admit a am a big fan of 3-offs to make room for other stuff

K1w1

07-03-2011, 05:42 AM

Yeah, i did.
But do you ever dropped 2 crusader at once? in the same round like avenger (T3)

I'm a fan of 3-offs too but you really has to play the good cards as 4-offs. There is no chance to cut them in my opinion, or you cut them to 0. But a 3/3 split sounds nice.
Ehm in 100 games i think 25 games with o-ring + flickerwisp.
and this is 1/4 from all. Ok 2 o-rings are enough too.

So, i would change this!

-1 ring
-1 revoker ( 3 are enough for me / 1 sideboard )
-1 crusader
+3 avenger
and i have a 3/3 split

K1w1

AggroSteve

07-03-2011, 02:58 PM

that sounds quite nice, though i have to say i really love the playset of revokers main, because they are usefull in every matchup and give outs to so many annoying things, jace, EE, deed, just to mention a few

as soon as i got some time and get the cards i will test crusader as a 2 off and 3 off, the 4th mangara cutting all oblivion rings,..... but as soon as i miss them the probably will go back in as a 2-off.... otherwise i will obviously share all my thoughts on the changings i am about to make (a few thoughts on mangara were allready posted earlier^^)

ah right,.... what is everyones thoughts on batterskull,.... worth an inclusion?, i have seen a lot of deadguy lists run him and allmost every other deck packing stoneforge mystic
do we need him as well or are we fine with the protection-swords and jitte?

Ehm in 100 games i think 25 games with o-ring + flickerwisp.
and this is 1/4 from all. Ok 2 o-rings are enough too.

i am a bit surprised on how often this trick worked for u, would you say it depends on the opponent you are playing that you can pull of this trick far more regularly than i am able to (meaning if slower opponent = easier).....
when i see the trick on my hand it often happened to me that i was under pressure and did not wait/couldn't, would you reccomend sitting it out to be able to pull the trick, is it worth waiting for the bigger impact in the field?

K1w1

07-03-2011, 04:17 PM

Ok, i think 3off revoker are enough, but this is metachoice. In some decks (for example gate, ichorid) it isnt worth to play revoker. ( my 2 cents)

Batterscull is a nice card, i think i will try it.

o-ring trick:
vs.
discard = negative
counter = negative
rest = positive

Its easy to play against decks without discard and counter.

AggroSteve

07-03-2011, 05:43 PM

i am still a bit sceptical about batterskull.... well probably because of his high mana cost,.... sure you can cheat him in play with stoneforge but if stoneforge gets killed you're screwed, i think this combo is too conditional as well (but powerfull), and i do not like conditional things at all^^

but thanks on your thoughts about oblivion ring.... now i am assured a bit, to take them out for a while^^

This site requires proper grammar, punctuation, capitalization, and sentence structure. Also, spell your words correctly. Please change your posting habits.
-4eak

sorry, english is not my first language, but i will try to improve

CorpT

07-03-2011, 06:16 PM

i am still a bit sceptical about batterskull.... well probably because of his high mana cost,.... sure you can cheat him in play with stoneforge but if stoneforge gets killed you're screwed, i think this combo is too conditional as well (but powerfull), and i do not like conditional things at all^^

but thanks on your thoughts about oblivion ring.... now i am assured a bit, to take them out for a while^^

If only there were some way to protect a SFM...

The only deck I can imagine running SFM that wouldn't run Batterskull is Zoo because the decks Batterskull is good against, Zoo is already good against. Otherwise, if you're running SFM and not Batterskull, you're probably making a mistake. Especially when you're already running MoR.

Finn

07-04-2011, 09:48 AM

CorpT, the blue decks with Batterskull are using it as a primary wincon. D&T is full of them. That alone is not sufficient argument against Batterskull. But it does mean that D&T wins plenty of games sans Mystic and equipment. So the design has no search. There is no way to cycle the Batterskull back in if you draw it unwantedly. Also, we don't have counters to protect the Mystic. Mom is a substitute, but not as plentiful.

I have tried it. I never found myself tutoring for it. It was dead in my hand w/out an active Mystic. I always had other, more attractive wincons.

Wrong deck.

4eak

07-04-2011, 10:33 AM

At first, I didn't like Batterskull so much. My mind has slowly changed. I'm finding more and more that it is a good target off a t2 or t3 (especially off Vial) SFM. It is also a late-game house. I'm in favor of the card.

peace,
4eak

zevlovex

07-04-2011, 11:11 PM

What u guys think of this new m12 dude?

Grand Abolisher WW

During your turn your opponents cant cast spells or activate abilities of artifacts creatures and enchantments

2/2

Does this fit the deck?

AggroSteve

07-05-2011, 04:08 AM

sideboard maybe

we got better stuff in mainboard, but i have to say he is quite nice

Finn

07-05-2011, 09:23 AM

As long as Zoo does not come out as a real beneficiary of the heavy blue metagame, I will likely prune some of my less disruptive aggro guys for Abolisher testing and probably Oblivion Rings.

zevlovex

07-05-2011, 09:20 PM

I've tested it on mws against a friend and having the opponent top tap out on his turn to kill him just so u blink it out of play gives u that time walk feeling.dont know if it's worth the slots on md,but he sure feels cute

timmycolossus

07-19-2011, 10:53 AM

I have been testing batterskull with main deck mental misstep and it has proven to beneficial. It allows us to protect are vial or mom, etc. One big thing about MM is that it allows us to put even more taxes on them when we port them and counter their one drops. More testing is required but so far I have been have success with batterskull and MM in the same deck in D&T.

_erbs_

07-21-2011, 06:13 AM

Hello,
I've tested the grand abolisher and for me it deserves alot in the main atleast for me build. As for the deck build its not your traditional DT build. Currently when the deck doesn't curve out its slow as hell and could be easily overrun by faster decks.

The deck im still currently testing and tweaking is as follow..

Lands [22]
4 rishadan port
3 wasteland
2 flagstones of trokair
3 karakas
10 plains

Spells [14]
4 aether vial
4 swords to plowshares
1 umezawa's jitte
1 sword of fire and ice
1 sword of light and shadow
3 cataclysm

Creatures [24]
4 mother of runes
2 phyrexian revoker
3 stoneforge mystic
3 grand abolisher
4 serra avenger
3 mirran crusader
3 kitchen finks
2 mangara of corondor

Some initial notes on testing
• sols if preferred over batterskull as recursion and pro white is very important after cataclysm.
• flickerwisp is removed in favor of mirran sader and kitchen finks.., bec of the following reasons:
• mirran can deal with bigger green dudes like kotr or tarmo
• finks can live after cata and helps in against fast aggro decks and can surely hold an equipment against decks that don't run rfg spells.
• wisp has lots of tricks and can save permanents on your side when you cast cata but i feel that mirran and finks hold much more value overall.

Creatures I've been considering to lighten the curve
• jotun grunt - sadly only useful after cata you cant cast him early on
• epochrasite - is good when vialed in and is good with cata aswell but without vial is kinda crappy
• ethersworn canonist - just for stalling purposes only so you don't get overrun by faster decks.
• safehold elite - 2/2 persist
• knight of white orchid - a solid 2/2 1st striker and helps you early on to build the mana you need, im sure DT players knows that DT is a very mana hungry deck, and can help you develop mana after cata assuming your opponent drops a 2nd land and you can vial him out.

for now thats all, hoping to get some advice and suggestions.

thanks in advance

timmycolossus

07-21-2011, 12:23 PM

_erbs_

07-21-2011, 10:47 PM

I am liking your build have you test misstep. It feeds your Grunts usable protects you a bit against combo, protects your vial for misstep etc. other wise I like your build I like crusader as a choice or flickerwisp in my meta because batterskull is so prominent. What is your meta?

hello,
thanks, i forgot to post my sb, but i run misstep on my sideboard. here is my sb list

sideboard [15]
3 mental misstep
1 enlightened tutor
2 tormods crypt
3 ethersworn canonist
1 kitchen finks
2 burrenton forge-tender
1 path to exile
2 oblivion ring

As for the meta in our place, its around 50% aggro decks, 40% blue control decks, 8% combo and 2% random decks

timmycolossus

07-22-2011, 05:51 PM

Well first of here is my list that I have been running and proving to be pretty effective.

Death
3x mother of runes
4x sfm
4x serra avenger
3x jotun grunt
3x revoker
3x flickerwisp
3x mangara

Spells:
4x vial
4x swords
1x jitte
1x batterskull (good against control)
1x Sword of fire and ice
1x Sword of light and shadow
3x mental misstep (very good in this deck)

Taxes:
3x karakas
4x port
4x wasteland
11x plains

SB: TBA

I have found this list to be pretty good however I need more testing against control decks. From the primer it says that D&T has trouble against landstill decks. I was wondering what new tools can be used against control decks?

Erbs: I have not made a SB because it really depends on the meta. Would you mind explaining why you chose the cards you did for your SB.

AggroSteve

07-23-2011, 10:58 AM

i am sceptical about mental misstep, can you please describe why it should be good in this deck, and be played, aside of the obvios tempogain, and little help against combo

Fry

07-23-2011, 03:50 PM

personally I don't think that it belongs in the main board, and that sideboard would be personal choice... I don't play any missteps in my 75 nor do I plan to.

AggroSteve

07-23-2011, 05:52 PM

i think as well that it does not really belong in this deck, though sticking a mother of runes and being able to protect it with misstep is nice

but we are no blue tempodeck that needs to stick one of their few creatures and protect it, we are a vial-based tempo deck which means we run about 20+ creatures and in that case i think we should only really fear mass-removal, or recurring removal IMO and in both cases mental misstep is of no use

in our case i think it really only could improve the combo matchup a bit, but with the meta as it is right now, i do not think improving the combomatchup is necessary, since combo, aside of hive-mind and painter-stone, is non-existent

timmycolossus

07-24-2011, 10:55 AM

Misstep has been amazing. The combination of mm and mom stomps zoo, protects are vial, counters entomb and reanimation (some) spells, stops discard, slows down gsz decks when they try to zenith for zero, counters most 1 cmc burn, can even counter cantrips. You should play test misstep, I do not think anybody esle has tested aside from me. It is good and has a place in the main. Also one big thing is it also feeds grunt, makes reanimator match up much better giving us another turn or so that we get control of the board. In other words it makes all of our average matchups better.

timmycolossus

07-24-2011, 11:01 AM

Fry

07-24-2011, 04:27 PM

I used to have it in my sideboard, but then I noticed I would side in any other card and never the missteps, so they got cut, I run mono white, so I am able to do a few more shenanigans that other builds, but I stand by what I said earlier, that I personally do not believe that Mental Misstep has a place in this deck.

mrjumbo03

07-24-2011, 11:38 PM

Hey Fry, have you tested with the Grand Abolishers lately? Still on my exam week so I can't really test them but I'm about to get a Foil playset later!

Fry

07-25-2011, 12:21 AM

I haven't had the oportunity to test with them yet, I'll probably try 2 or 3 main board at some point, but I haven't figured out yet what slot to put them in I was thinking of trying them over one of my leonin arbiters and perhaps the 2 oblivion rings, I'm just going to do some testing with it, and if I don't have time I'm not going to try it out at large tournament, but perhaps a smaller one.

Unfortunately my legacy play group lives about 30-45 minutes away from my place and I don't drive a car.

pandaman

07-25-2011, 12:53 AM

_erbs_

07-25-2011, 01:19 AM

Played two tournaments with Death & Taxes over the weekend - a 28 player and a 38 player. Went 6 out of 28 (no cut to Top 8) and 10 out of 38, missing Top 8 in the second tournament on resistance. My first tournaments with this deck that were 4 or more rounds (4 rounds for the first, 6 rounds for the second). Good times.

The deck ran really well, I had a lot of fun. I will write a report later, so people can give me some help with sideboard, which I wasn't complete satisfied with. What I will say now is that Mental Misstep was insanely good, and caught everyone by surprise when I played it. It won me Round 6 against Hive Mind because every time he cantripped I could counter it. It won me Merfolk by countering his Vial while I resolved my own. It won me a match against Painter's Servant countering a Red Elemental Blast in Game 3 when I was swinging for lethal when he would have drawn a Llawan the next turn to bounce my board. I played it as a 3 of in the main, and I loved it. I would recommend everyone test it and run it if you like how it plays. But I'm on the bandwagon.

hello, as for the MM yeah i have the same sentiments with you but i feel its much more of a SB card as a main.., bec the more i play DT i have come to realize that its very very dependent on vial and it provides anti land screw which is quite common in this deck and its the heart and soul for DT's tricks.

@grand abolisher
well i've been testing him and i feel it really deserves a slot in the main deck and is very potent when paired with cataclysm, but the problem i've always been faced is that with abolisher on board as compared to grunts or arbiters is that you need double white, and DT has a quite high land screw rate, and i only ran 7 colorless lands out of the 22 land count i use.

timmycolossus

07-25-2011, 10:11 AM

Played two tournaments with Death & Taxes over the weekend - a 28 player and a 38 player. Went 6 out of 28 (no cut to Top 8) and 10 out of 38, missing Top 8 in the second tournament on resistance. My first tournaments with this deck that were 4 or more rounds (4 rounds for the first, 6 rounds for the second). Good times.

The deck ran really well, I had a lot of fun. I will write a report later, so people can give me some help with sideboard, which I wasn't complete satisfied with. What I will say now is that Mental Misstep was insanely good, and caught everyone by surprise when I played it. It won me Round 6 against Hive Mind because every time he cantripped I could counter it. It won me Merfolk by countering his Vial while I resolved my own. It won me a match against Painter's Servant countering a Red Elemental Blast in Game 3 when I was swinging for lethal when he would have drawn a Llawan the next turn to bounce my board. I played it as a 3 of in the main, and I loved it. I would recommend everyone test it and run it if you like how it plays. But I'm on the bandwagon.

Nice man congrats on the finish. I also agree misstep deserves a place in the main in the current meta imo. It is okay if people say other wise bc that is an opinion. What did you cut for mm? I have never been a fan of blue in general and never played it in a tournament until mm came along. I am glad you tested and did well. I am going to say this and receive serious criticism but I cut mother of runes. I am ready to feel the heat and explain why I cut it.
@fry: hey bro I did not see you at jupiter. Also are you going next month? If you are are you playing D&T?

timmycolossus

07-25-2011, 10:18 AM

Hey Fry, have you tested with the Grand Abolishers lately? Still on my exam week so I can't really test them but I'm about to get a Foil playset later!

I have been testing grand abolisher and have found him to not be impressive imo. That does not necessarily mean that it does not deserve a place in the sb for certain matchup. Also maybe its my meta as to why it was not impressive in my deck. It is amazing with cataclysm though

Fry

07-25-2011, 10:28 AM

I wanted to go so badly, but I couldn't get off work, and it;as not worth calling off for in case I do actually get sick, which is what call offs are for anyway. I will be there in August and September though, got the requests off approved. I don't know what I'll be playing yet, at least not for sure, though if I can't decide D&T is pretty much always my fall back deck now.

pandaman

07-25-2011, 06:16 PM

Timmy, my list was:

Main (60)

4 Aether Vial
3 Mother of Runes
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Mental Misstep

4 Serra Avenger
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Jotun Grunt
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Phyrexian Revoker

4 Flickerwisp
3 Mangara of Corondor
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

4 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
11 Plains

Sideboard (15) (for the first tournament)

4 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Null Rod
1 Serenity
1 Pithing Needle

Sideboard (15) (for the first tournament)

3 Wing Shards
4 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Serenity
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Phyrexian Metamorph

So I cut (from the standard list) 1 Oust, 1 Jotun Grunt and 1 Mother of Runes for 3 Mental Misstep.

Worked out well. Before the second tournament I changed the sideboard, removing Thorn of Amethyst for combo hate, to then run into 4 combo decks (TES, Kuldotha Forgemaster, Four Horsemen, Hive Mind)... boo. Still went 4-2 :P

timmycolossus

07-25-2011, 08:55 PM

How did 2 grunt work out for you? How was mother of runes for you in this deck?

pandaman

07-25-2011, 11:31 PM

Mother of Runes is always excellent to have. I love it. However, I played four combo decks one tournament, including that Kuldotha artifact deck, so she got boarded out a lot.

Jotun Grunt is good when you see lots of creature decks with Tarmogoyf. I didn't see those decks so he wasn't that good. However, a fat creature is good sometimes - if he comes down mid/late game and you have a Flickerwisp to reset him he's an excellent clock, given by that time you usually have at least one piece of equipment on the board.

Still, although the above cards weren't useful in some matchups, I wouldn't run the deck without either of those two cards in it.

Having said that, I would love a fourth Revoker maindeck... that card is really good.

_erbs_

07-25-2011, 11:44 PM

I ran a very different lists from yours, but i do use mental misstep and jotun grunts on the SB as i feel they are SB card more of a main. I use grand abolisher in those spots

As for jotuns, having it main is so so as tarmo is still the most common creature in legacy but i feel if you want to main deck it 2 is the magic number drawing him early is a a bit crappy.

As for mental missteps in the main deck..., well it also has its ups, but for me i would rather be it on the SB. What i really like mm on the MD is that you have protection from 1cc removals and MM for your vial, which is very important in any DT deck, having your vial countered will backtrack and slow you down.

I run 4 mm on my SB, what i cut for SB are 1mom 1serra avenger 2 depends on what im up against. normally i put in mm for decks that packs tons of 1cc removal and a fellow vial user aswell.

Fry

07-26-2011, 12:24 AM

my current list is as follows and it has proven itself to me time and time again

Main Board:

3 Flickerwisp
2 Jotun Grunt
3 Leonin Arbiter
3 Mangara of Corondor
4 Mother of Runes
2 Oblivion Ring
4 Serra Avenger
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 AEther Vial
3 Phyrexian Reovoker
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of War and Peace
1 Umezawa's Jitte
9 Pains
4 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

Side Board:

3 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Flickerwisp
2 Jotun Grunt
1 Oblivion Ring
3 Runed Halo
3 Wing Shards
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Sword of Body and Mind

AggroSteve

07-26-2011, 06:08 PM

i was using sword of feast and famine as well and its power surprised me quite a bit, specially against any green deck

first attacking and thanks to pro green into player, than thanks to ability re-equipping for defense is quite awesome, making the opponent lose cards all the time, thus making him uncapaple of answering it once it got startet

the tempo-boost it provides is awesome, but as i haven't got enough space in MD right now and prefer sword of fire and ice, and sword of light and shadow in the maindeck i moved feast and famine to the sideboard

Fry

07-26-2011, 10:52 PM

I like the feast and famine mainly because it allows me to play stuff, then untap my lands so I can port them and/or stoneforge on their turn.

Fry

08-06-2011, 11:25 PM

I am thinking of trying out 2 grand abolishers at Jupiter this Saturday in my main board over the two main grunts, put one of the grunts into the side(which will put 3 there) and remove one of the wingshards to make room for it.

With that change my list looks like this:

Main:
3 flickerwisp
2 grand abolisher
3 leonin arbiter
3 mangara of corondor
4 mother of runes
2 oblivion ring
4 serra avenger
3 stoneforge mystic
4 swords to plowshares
4 aether vial
3 phyrexian revoker
1 sword of feast and famine
1 sword of fire and ice
1 sword of war and peace
1 umezawa's jitte
9 plains
4 karakas
4 rishadan port
4 wasteland

side:
3 ethersworn canonist
1 flickerwisp
3 jotun grunt
1 oblivion ring
3 runed halo
2 wing shards
1 phyrexian revoker
1 sword of body and mind

AggroSteve

08-07-2011, 05:54 AM

lately i have been more and more dissapointed with flickerwisp, i am thinking of cutting them completely for a set of mirran crusader

this would mean less tricks but more beats and a slightly faster clock

the next thing i am thinking about is the 4th sword i am running in MD (jitte, fire/ice, light/shadow have owned their place), i do not know if i should play body/mind or feast/famine, specially if i will run 4 crusader

what do you guys think?

@ abolisher: i thought about the same thing of cutting the jötun grunts for abolisher, but i think abolisher will just be a removal-target and nothing more actually, at least agaist controll-decks, i could see him being strong against bluebased tempodecks, but jötun grunt is strong against as well, and is bigger, so i will stick with grunt for now, until someone proves that abolisher is "sick-shit"^^

AggroSteve

08-07-2011, 05:54 AM

MRmtg

08-15-2011, 08:48 PM

hey guys im going to an event soon and i've never play death and taxes..but my buddy said to brew up a list because he has the deck minus the wastelands and ports..this is what i came up with, what do you guys think?
4 karakas
4 mishras factories
13 plains
2 enlightened tutors
1 phyrexian revoker
4 mother of runes
4 serra avenger
4 stoneforge mystic
3 mangara of w.e.
2 flickerwisp
2 jotun grunt
3 mirran crusader
2 oblivion ring
4 swords to plowshares
4 aether vial
1 jitte
1 sword of light and shaddow
1 sword of fire and ice
1 batterskull
sideboard
3 mental misstep
2 tormods crypt
1 ethersworn cannonist
3 phyrexian revoker
1 jotun grunt
1 serenity
1 runed halo
2 enlightened tutor
1? another sword maybe?

Curby

08-15-2011, 10:55 PM

It's hard to critique because we don't know what you have access to. In general, going towards Finn's list in the OP is a good idea. Things that might be cheap enough for you to find locally and easily may include Flickerwisps, as they're the backbone of a lot of the tricks in the deck, as well as additional sword carriers. Also, consider emulating Finn's toolbox a little more closely. Singletons in the deck can decrease your consistency.

Missing the land disruption is going to hurt a lot.

I just got a wacky idea. I wonder if going towards a Angel Stompy deck with some tricks (i.e. more aggro than control) would work better in the end. You're already moving in that direction with Crusaders. Just a thought.

MRmtg

08-16-2011, 12:33 AM

14 plains
4 karakas
4 mishra's factories
4 serra avenger
4 mother of runes
4 aether vial
3 flickerwisp
3 mirran crusader
4 swords to plowshares
2 oblivion ring
3 jotun grunt
4 stoneforge mystic
3 mangara of corondor
1 sword of fire and ice
1 batterskull
1 sword of light and shadow
1 umezawa's jitte
aideboard
3 mental misstep
2 tormods crypt
1 ethersworn cannonist
3 phyrexian revoker
1 oblivion ring
1 serenity
1 runed halo
3 enlightened tutor

here's the list i ended up on..i wanted to go more aggro because of the whole no land hate..i didnt realize there was an angel stompy list i'll look into that now thnx

whitescorpion

08-19-2011, 11:24 AM

I 3-0'ed with a more mana denial build yesterday. Won't post the full list right now, but it contained notably:

1 x Isamaru
4 x Leonin Arbiter
3 x Aven Mindcensor

In a metagame that is becoming even greedier in search effects ( NO, Entomb, fetches, enlightened tutor, stoneforge mystic), these cards are finally paying off.

whitescorpion

08-22-2011, 09:31 AM

My latest list:

10 Plains
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port
2 Mishra's Factory
3 Karakas

1 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
2 Mother of Runes
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Jotun Grunt
4 leonin Arbiter
2 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Serra Avenger
3 Phyrexian Revokers
3 Aven Mindcensor
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 Flickerwisp

1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Aether Vial

3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Dismember

Overall decent list. I especially enjoyed the jotun grunt + sword of body and mind t3ch, eventhough it was unintentional. Pro-goyf, pro-jace, pro-merfolk. Affects the board, mills opponent's outs and basics making his fetches even more worthless. Dismember to not totally die to chalice-type stuff or to the always present mental misteps.

I would probably change a sword for a batterskull main, but i think I mostly need the batterskull for the landstill matchups, because of the recur ability vs. humility. So if he downs one guy, I can just replay, re-beat, etc. Another thing about mindcensor is he still has the flash ability under Humility which is greatly appreciated. Coupled with sword of body and mind, you can actually stand a chance if you get WOG'ed.

I know sfm doesn't totally work well with arbiter, but you won't always have arbiter in play. He's kind of a lightning rod vs. most decks (aside merfolk and stompy-type decks).

i went with the 2 port 2 factory split because you sometimes need to sneak a factory in there before ppl standstill you, otherwise you get crushed under heavy card advantage. Ports also allow you to not get factory/mutavautl beats (as do wastelands).

I thought about maybe path to exile over swords to plowshares due to the search screw effect...still not convinced. Also, thought about scrapping a dude for a 4th mindcensor (those guys are gaining value in a search-heavier meta).

Vial has been good, eventhough it sometimes gets mistepped. Not playing to scrap it anytime soon. The creatures don't rely on vial as much as before (except for flickerwisp, which becomes godly)

Let me know what you guys think.

PS: i don't have my deck on hand, so no Sidebaord posted ATM.

AggroSteve

08-22-2011, 03:45 PM

why isamaru?, and why only 2 mother of runes?

this are the only things i do not really understand, since mother is asways awesome, and isamaru is well a 2/2 for 1 mana but no utility and no disruption

whitescorpion

08-22-2011, 05:24 PM

Because he usually can down the opposing 1 drops. He can infinite chump with karakas.
This is relevant because we don't always have man's to drop mangara and chump bounce. Obviouslywhen he's sick. Also he puts slower control decks on a smaller clock. A lot of time I find mom doesn't even attack on turn 2 because she has to tap protect. I hate that.

There is also the surprise factor, especially with a vial at and an attacking lackey. Usually he can gempalm your mom b4 blocks. Not so with the legendary dog.

He is also not dead to a random engineered plague naming clerics. Finally I have to admit, its mostlya question of taste. I like to aggro real early.it was actually supposed to be a figure of destiny, but the man's base doesn't properly suupport its level up ability. I also considered 8.5 tails...but double white is deg a prob,same for grand abolisher.

AggroSteve

08-22-2011, 06:18 PM

i have been missing isamaru a lot, i have to admit that, and maybe i will retry him, but i do not see him being that good anymore, other creatures are just better, even for the same manacost

i think i will try adding isamaru as a 2-off again, just to try, cause the eternal chump-block was an awesome thing back when i still used him

Finn

09-20-2011, 12:44 AM

Ok, throw out the format. Time to go about completely dominating Merfolk again...in exchange for a more complicated combo sideboard.

pandaman

09-20-2011, 02:42 AM

I was just starting to like my Mental Missteps in this deck... back to the drawing board! Can somebody cut and paste a list from circa 12 May 2011?

In all seriousness thought, what to put in sideboard for combo? More Ethersworn Canonist and Thorn of Amethyst with Enlightened Tutor? Or Mindbreak Trap?

Curby

09-20-2011, 03:01 AM

There's not a lot of room in the board, unfortunately. (In other words, note my sig.) Add to this the problem of the cards from the new set, most notably Nevermore. Banning MM makes Enlightened Tutor stronger though, so adding multiples of existing cards doesn't seem like the thing to do.

I'm thinking I might have to remove some Arbiters from my board, since I never seem to side them in for my meta. For those in more developed/modern metas, I'm not sure what the heck you guys will take out. =)

EDIT: Here's an idea: how often do you guys side in four Tutors anyway? I seem to remember siding in 3 a lot of the time, and occasionally 2. Dropping a Tutor may be a solution/necessity as the sideboard gets even tighter.

Finn

09-20-2011, 09:11 PM

I don't think I have ever sided in less than four. I urge folks to try to keep a diverse tutorable sideboard. E Tutor is so unfair for sb tech. It would be a miserable shame not to take advantage of it.

pandaman

09-21-2011, 12:38 AM

kirbysdl, noted. Here's the rationalised version. Thorn and Canonist work better with ETutor, Mindbreak Trap is sort of a wierd inclusion because it doesn't have much synergey with the other things your sideboard is trying to do.

I agree with Finn, I always love 4 Enlightened Tutors when I play this deck. Gives you the best chance of opening with a 2 Tutor hand postboard, which without Mental Misttep in the format means a really high chance of getting your hate online ASAP.

My assumptions about the changes to the metagame that may happen once Mental Misstep is gone:

Storm combo is more widely played;
Merfolk is more widely played;
Counterbalance is played again, though not widely;
Goblins is more widely played;
High Tide is played again, with and without Candelabra;
Dredge will still be played;
Landstill and dedicated control doesn't get played much anymore.
[/LIST]

With that in mind, my maindeck would be:

4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Karakas
11 Plains

4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Oblivion Ring
4 Mother of Runes

4 Serra Avenger
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Jotun Grunt
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Flickerwisp
3 Mangara of Corondor
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

and my sideboard would be:

4 Enlightened Tutor
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Wing Shards

Against storm and High Tide, Tutors Revoker, Canonist and Thorn come in. Against Goblins, Wing Shards comes in (may need more stuff for Goblins if it gets popular again). Against Dredge, Tutors, Relic and Tormod's come in. Against Counterbalance, Revoker on Top, but probably without the Tutors?

Thoughts?

mrjumbo03

09-21-2011, 01:07 AM

You don't need to bring much in against Goblins. Only thing I don't like in your sb is the Wing Shards, I'd much rather put in Ghostly Prison which is a. tutorable, and b. has some uses against dredge, etw tokens etc. And I don't even run Ghostly Prison in mine. I run Ensnaring Bridge in its slot which solves a lot more problematic matchups. The new card Nevermore should probably be in there in the spot of one of the Thorns. Just be sure to name the engine and not the kill and you'll be set, this was something that Runed Halo could not do.

Curby

09-21-2011, 01:46 AM

Contingency plans and brainstorming are good, but D&T's board is perhaps even more meta-dependent than most decks', and it's hard to say just what the ideal choices are without a little more insight into what you expect to face. Of course, I'm more used to smaller events since I'm in a small town, so perhaps in a large event, you do more "macro" rather than "micro" metagaming. I'm usually thinking about specific problem matchups vs. particular builds and pilots.

Anyway, I've always liked Cataclysm, and currently run them in your O-ring slots. IMO we've got quite a lot of point removal already, but sometimes I just need to reset. Notably, they should help a ton against Goblins. I know that Finn runs three Arbiters in the side... I'm interested to see if Arbiter gets generally less used with the new printings. As you said, there's less and less room for anything that can't be tutored up.

Whippoorwill

09-22-2011, 04:43 AM

Took 2nd (out of 22) this past weekend with the following list:

8 Plains
3 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Karakas
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port

3 Mother of Runes
4 Serra Avenger
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Aven Mindcensor
4 Flickerwisp
3 Mangara of Corondor
2 Mirran Crusader

4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Thousand-Year Elixir
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

2 Oblivion Ring

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Grand Abolisher
2 Jotun Grunt
1 Manriki-Gusari
2 Peacekeeper

Round 1 vs. Stoneforge Zoo

Game 1: He has a turn 1 Lavamancer but that gets StP'd. He has lots of removal for my stuff, but its mainly Path so I get ramped without losing anything major. I have removal for his stuff in the form of O.Ring and StP. I end up getting there despite him having Library.

Game 2: I mull to 5 and keep the following: Karakas, 2x Aether Vial, 2 creatures (think Avenger and Stoneforge). That ended up being the best possible hand as he kept a real good hand with a few 2 drops, but his 2nd land was Karakas. He never drew the 2nd land by the time I killed him. Inadvertant LD ftw.

1-0; 2-0

Round 2 vs. Team America

Game 1: Nothing too special, but I eventually got there with an Aven Mindcensor. He scooped when he had no removal for the Bird and I had a lonely Batterskull on the field with mana to equip it to the bird next turn for lethal.

Game 2: Very long game and we went to turns. I wasn't drawing much land and start getting beat down by a Clique. He gets Jace to 13 counters and I mise an O.Ring and he whiffs on 2 Brainstorms in response. Clique gets me down to 3 and I mise a Karakas to hold it off. I make an error on 2 Clique triggers and discard (without drawing no less) instead of doing the correct ability for Clique. He also though he could target himself (legal) and cycle his land (not legal) at one point, but I caught that one at least. Time is eventually called and we go to turns. He gets a Deed but he never gets a Wasteland to deal with my Karakas so we draw that game. I also had Mindcensor as backup in case. Very close game.

2-0; 3-0-1

Round 3 vs. Fish

Game 1: My Vial resolves turn 1 surprisingly. I resolve Elixir on turn 3 after he thinks about it for a minute. Next turn Mangara hits the board and removes his Lord and Reejerey thanks to Elixir. JustAsPlanned.jpg He doesn't really recover.

Game 2: His deck decides to work and he has the counters when he needs them and I lose fast.

Game 3: Similar to game 1 but he counters Elixir this time which was the right play since I had Mangara in hand (no Vial though this time). Stoneforge for Batterskull ends up getting me there.

3-0; 5-1-1

Round 4 vs. R/B LD
We're the only remaining undefeated players.

Game 1: I get a good start and get Batterskull active early. He hits once then Damnation hits. Burning Wish for Shattering Spree (ended up killing Vial and Batterskull) was next as I eventually go down to 0 lands. From there it was Burning Wish > Rhystic Tutor > Trinisphere. Then Burning Wish > Call the Skybreaker which killed me.

Game 2: I keep a decent hand with 2 lands and 2 drops. Her turn 1 (on the draw): Rishadan Port, Mox Diamond. I never hit 2 mana between that and Wasteland.

3-1; 5-3-1

The LD deck was very interesting. Cards I remember not mentioned above:
Stone Rain
Earth Rift
Smallpox
Sinkhole

Eatatjoes

09-22-2011, 09:02 AM

So Finn, what does your list look like now, in the current metagame? Are you going to just run the list that you did good with at the 5k?

Curby

09-22-2011, 12:26 PM

Barbed Blightning

09-22-2011, 09:59 PM

Is/was oust really worth it? I have friends who say sunlance is better removal.

Finn

09-22-2011, 11:22 PM

I really liked Oust because it has some hidden effects on the game that (as with much of this deck, because the plays are uncommon except against D+T) allowed me an opportunity to outplay my opponents who were not expecting them. They include: Ousting my own Flickerwisp or Revoker for some life and a new target two turns later - kinda meh, but I found myself doing it on occasion. Oust your opponent's creature while keeping his land disrupted. This has the effect of delaying his development an extra turn as he draws the creature again instead of land - this is a common tax. Oust while opponent has an unfetched land, coercing him to get a land you can destroy or tap. etc.

I don't really know what my list will look like. hrmph. But I am certainly going to pick up some Nevermores. Revokers are actually pretty nifty against both LEDs and Candelabras, so storm combo is marginally easier with them in the main. I think that Nevermore may very well be a turn too slow. I know that Glowrider was. But it was really effective if the opponent got set back a single turn dealing with something else temporary like Chant or Port or if he Duressed me. Unfortunately, Port on turn 2 means you can't Tutor on that turn. So you would have to be holding Nevermore. So the plan is still to go for Canonist as your primary hate. I think Nevermore's power is not that it is the perfect hate card against storm like Canonist is. Rather, it is a hate card that is actually useful elsewhere. That is why I want more than one in my board.

Whippoorwill

09-23-2011, 12:10 AM

@whippoorwill, congrats on the finish, and thanks for the report. What do you think about the changes you made? After this event, are you going to make any tweaks? Elixir obviously worked for you a few times, but it seems a little win-more and can be a pretty horrible topdeck.

Having Mindcensor as well as (Leonin) Arbiter seems like a lot of hate for searching. How often did you have all 5 in at once?

The biggest changes I would make would be with the sideboard, possibly going towards the Tutor based build. I could probably cut the Elixirs for the reason you mentioned (which is a very valid point) but I'm still high on the potential with Mangara, Stoneforge and Mother of Runes. I may cut 1 and replace it with a 3rd Mindcensor (pre-Innistrad) or cut them both and a Flickerwisp to put in 3 Fiend Hunters.

My mistake, it was Grand Abolisher that was in the board, not Grand Arbiter. I only brought them in for the control matches and I'm not sure how useful he was in the Fish match since I pretty much already had the game won when he hit. In the Team America match he ate a Maelstrom Pulse, that was about it.

Barbed Blightning

09-23-2011, 09:16 AM

I don't know if I'd cut to below 4 flickerwisps; they're really fantastic, and essential to the deck.

LegacyDan

10-03-2011, 02:34 PM

With the most recent bannings, I am sleeving up D+T again and changing the board an E Tutor based one. What do ya'll think of Nevermore from Innistrad? I like the looks of it, and the WW in its casting cost is pretty easy to hit.

Curby

10-03-2011, 03:51 PM

I know Finn was talking about entire playsets at one point. I'll be looking to fit at least one into my toolbox. I'm not sure that I can find room for more. =)

lebarion

10-17-2011, 09:37 AM

Well, just want to tell about a good result here to show that this deck is far from dead.

I took monoW D+T to a 104-people tournament this weekend, to a 5-2 result.
I won against Enchantress, Affinity, Deadguy, Lands and Merfolk, and lost against Elves and other Merfolk (terrible play mistake here).

The 8 best placed in the swiss that didn't have the invitation for the Brazilian Legacy Nationals were paired to play for the invitation. I faced Merfolk and UW stoneblade in this "top8", and got the invitation.

My list was very similar to the one in the opening post, with 4 Revokers main deck. 23 lands flooded me the entire day, though, and probably I'll go back to 22.

from Cairo

10-17-2011, 10:52 PM

My list was very similar to the one in the opening post, with 4 Revokers main deck. 23 lands flooded me the entire day, though, and probably I'll go back to 22.

Firstly, congrats.

On the land thing- Caleb Dunward had posted a list during MM-era with some Horizon Canopy in place of some Plains. That struck me as some solid tech, cause they're going to be functionally the same most of the time, you have way better Wasteland targets anyway. A few points of pain in the early game is probably acceptable for stability when it means you can cycle the land later when you hit the 4-5 mana you need.

You could totally go down to 22 as well, just thought I'd mention the Canopy thing if it maybe hadn't been discussed in this thread.

lebarion

10-18-2011, 11:57 AM

On the land thing- Caleb Dunward had posted a list during MM-era with some Horizon Canopy in place of some Plains. That struck me as some solid tech, cause they're going to be functionally the same most of the time, you have way better Wasteland targets anyway. A few points of pain in the early game is probably acceptable for stability when it means you can cycle the land later when you hit the 4-5 mana you need.

I've never thought about Horizon Canopy. I'll test a couple of them for sure, seems to be a good idea. I'm only a little bit worried about Wasteland in the Merfolk match, but I think we can hadle it.

What about Fiend Hunter? It seems to be a good inclusion, probably in Jötun Grunt's place.

Curby

10-18-2011, 12:02 PM

The problem is that Grunt is simultaneously cheaper and much (4x) bigger. It acts as an undercosted beater that can be kept in play with Flickerwisp or brought back with SoLS. Admittedly you didn't face a lot of grave-based decks in your recent tourney and that may limit his perceived usefulness, but the meta is going towards Reanimator, and undercosted beaters that happen to cherry-pick cards out of the yard are just what you'll want as you race to finish the game.

mrjumbo03

10-18-2011, 12:52 PM

I think it might be worth mentioning that Jotun Grunt has an added utility in a world full of Snapcasters too.

lebarion

10-18-2011, 12:59 PM

I think it might be worth mentioning that Jotun Grunt has an added utility in a world full of Snapcasters too.

This is true.
In fact, in my last tournament Jotun has been useful even though I haven't faced graveyard-based decks. I also was running SoBM instead of SoFI (expecting many control-ish decks), and in the couple times both hit the table it was a blowout.

But I think Fiend Hunter is too useful not to run. I'll try to find a place for at least 2 in the maindeck, and let you know the results.

EDIT: Thinking about it now, Kitchen Finks seems better than Fiend Hunter. I've already tested it and found the cost to be a problem... I'll test it anyway, just to be sure.

Finn

10-18-2011, 01:45 PM

You can pull Flickerwisp 2-1 tricks with him, he hits Emrakul, etc. But t0he problem that Fiend Hunter is likely to face is that it is almost dead against certain decks. As a 1/3, he really is not priced aggressively enough to be good on his own in any way. This happened with the one that is a Disenchant. Sure there are more creatures, but that one is a 2/2 for 2.

The deck really does not have any weak cards in it. If you are cutting something, you are losing something. Is your replacement worth it? Every few months, people start to talk about cutting Jotun Grunt. There is something about him that folks don't see for some reason. They have always been wrong in the past.

Curby

10-18-2011, 03:44 PM

Yeah, I've cut the fourth Grunt from my sideboard to have a more varied toolbox, but I can't see myself taking out the three in the maindeck. I have cut a Revoker and SFM to make room for some meta choices, but it's only due to the power of those cards that I'd take out Revokers and SFMs, which are themselves extremely powerful. I wouldn't take out such cards (or any others really) for Fiend Hunter.

Barbed Blightning

10-19-2011, 12:20 AM

I imagine this has already been shot down before, but if you're talking about using kitchen finks, why not this guy: http://magiccards.info/scans/en/pc/1.jpg? He's a flier, has finks' ability, great with a sword and can be bounced with flickerwisp/stonecloaker. I suppose the three-turn clock on him is a downside, however, I often find grunt to be of a similar lifespan and he's still fantastic. Plus at 2W, riftwatcher is less mana-specific than the finks.

Curby

10-19-2011, 12:58 AM

If we're comparing it to Kitchen Finks, Finks can come back if killed but Aven can't.

However, the original slot was Grunt, and that comparison's much worse. In its two attacks (Vanishing, not Fading), Aven might do 4 damage. In a single attack, Grunt matches that. Sure Aven flies, but we've already got 8 3-power fliers in the deck.

IMO if you really need the life, there are options in the deck already (2 swords give life, StP) and you could consider things such as Basilisk Collar. Easier to get going, and easily searched for by either SFM or Tutor.

lebarion

10-19-2011, 08:38 AM

After testing Fiend Hunter against Merfolk and Zoo, I've confirmed my expectations and found it to be inferior to Kitchen Finks. There were only a couple times Merfolk had more than two lords in play and I was very happy to see Fiend Hunter.

I like Grunt more because of the versatility he provides against grave-based decks than because of its power, and I'll stick with him for now mainly because of that. In my opinion, though, if Zoo is a big concern Kitchen Finks should be used in Grunt's slot.

I'd like to ask Kirby, Finn and everyone else here about some other topics:
1. Horizon Canopy - has it been tested? Does the damage or making the manabase more vunerable hurt too much?
2. Sword of X and Y- could it replace Sword of W and Z? (I'm testing Body and Mind in Fire and Ice's place, and I'm still unsure about the pros/cons)
3. Oblivion Ring - has it definitively lost its slot? Mangara and Flickerwisp are enough to handle artifacts, enchantments et al?

Thanks!

Finn

10-19-2011, 11:01 AM

I tested Body and Mind when it first came out. It was ok. The biggest reason I am not using it is because it is pro-ug. I am absolutely not cutting Fire//Ice. That one is a clear step above all the others. Since there is no good reason to overload on weapons, I only have space for one other. And I want to have protection from 4 colors between them. That leaves Light//Shadow or Feast//Famine. I may permanently switch to Feast//Famine because the life gain on Light Shadow can be accomplished with Jitte and the raise dead seems to be win-more.

I have one O-Ring in my SB. Too slow in most cases. I actually used to side them out against Merfolk and Goblins because of how slow they are. In other words, they are no good as removal against tribal. That screams sideboard to me.

I have no experience with Horizon Canopy without Knight of the Reliquary. But it is the knight that makes it so good.

from Cairo

10-19-2011, 03:36 PM

I'd like to ask Kirby, Finn and everyone else here about some other topics:
1. Horizon Canopy - has it been tested? Does the damage or making the manabase more vunerable hurt too much?
2. Sword of X and Y- could it replace Sword of W and Z? (I'm testing Body and Mind in Fire and Ice's place, and I'm still unsure about the pros/cons)
3. Oblivion Ring - has it definitively lost its slot? Mangara and Flickerwisp are enough to handle artifacts, enchantments et al?

1. I did some light testing with it as a 2 of and it didn't come up as much of an issue. Opposing Wastelands tend to be aimed at Ports or Karakas. I was running 10 Plains, 4 Port, 4 Karakas, 3 Wasteland, 2 Canopy. So the list still had 10 basics and 16 White sources, I was pretty comfortable with it.

2. I wouldn't cut Fire and Ice or Jitte from the equipment package. Fire and Ice gives you a go to on a clear/positive board state and is generally the best target versus control and combo for giving you a faster clock and more fuel. Jitte is obviously a house versus small/swarm agro. I think the last piece (or two pieces) can be debated/metagamed to ones liking. Feast and Famine probably has the strongest triggers and two solid protections that aren't covered on Fire and Ice. Body and Mind can be pretty good at pulling one out of a bad board position versus larger guys, pro-Green gets by Tarmogoyf and KotR, and then reequipping to the wolf after combat helps on the defensive. Light and Shadow has some really good protections versus targeted removal, which can be nice if you can catch an opening to get it on a guy.

3. I agree Oblivion Ring is pretty slow. It's nice in attrition battles, and has cool tricks with Flickerwisp, but by the time you can start doing tricks with it, you have equipment options and Mangara lock. You're late game's already great, I don't think O-Ring helps you get to that point often enough. Phyrexian Revoker I feel does a better job of handling permanents.

@ the Jotun Grunt discussion, I think this card is really strong right now. Between all the Knights, Snapcasters, Tombstalkers, and Tribal running around a 4/4 that disrupts GY strategies is really well positioned. Giving you some preboard against Dredge and Loam can be solid too.

This is the list I've been messing with

10 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Karakas
3 Wasteland
2 Horizon Canopy

4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Serra Avenger
4 Flickerwisp
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Mangara of Corondor
1 Mirran Crusader

4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

DukeDemonKn1ght

10-20-2011, 07:45 AM

Why wouldn't Batterskull at least be considered for the third equipment slot? It really just slaughters a lot of aggro/ midrange-ish decks if it's unanswered. And also, for those splashing green, I have to recommend 2-3 copies of Living Wish, it's a bit slow, but it provides a lot of potential toolbox-y options, and it sets up Mangara locks like a champ, since it tutors for both pieces.

lebarion

10-20-2011, 07:54 AM

Why wouldn't Batterskull at least be considered for the third equipment slot? It really just slaughters a lot of aggro/ midrange-ish decks if it's unanswered.

I've tested Batterskull and found it to be too clunky. Sure it win games sometimes and shines in the late game, but if you fetch it turn 2 and your Stoneforge Mystic gets killed, you'll never be able to cast it until late in the game.
Even when you get to 5 lands, you probably want to leave Karakas untapped for Mangara and you'll be using Rishadan to keep your opponent off one color.

Barbed Blightning

10-23-2011, 12:23 AM

Hey guys, I came I first place at Mythic Games in Elmira yesterday with mono-W D&T! It was relatively small at 14 people; however, I went 4-0 with a 100% win streak. Here's my list:

Main:

Creatures:

x3 Mangara
x4 Mother of Runes
x4 Flickerwisp
x4 Serra Avenger
x3 Jotun Grunt
x3 SFM
x3 Revoker
x1 Martyr of Sands
x1 Leonin Arbiter
x1 Ethersworn Canonist

Artifacts:

x4 Vial
x1 Sword of Fire & Ice
x1 Sword of Light & Shadow
x1 Jitte

Instants:

x4 Swords to Plowshares

Lands:

x10 Plains
x4 Karakas
x4 Wasteland
x4 Rishadan Port

Sideboard:

Creatures:

x2 Leonin Arbiter
x1 Kor Firewalker
x1 Phyrexian Metamorph

Artifacts:

x1 Tormod's Crypt
x1 Ensnaring Bridge

Enchantments:

x1 Runed Halo
x1 Absolute Law
x1 CoP: Red
x1 Wheel of Sun & Moon
x1 Nevermore

Instants:

x4 Enlightened Tutor

As I forgot my notepad, here's a somewhat vague recap of my matches:

Round 1: Fish

Game 1 starts off with cursecatcher on his side and a wasteland and vial on mine. He wastes my wasteland, sparing my turn-2 karakas. he drops mutavault, and another catcher, but no lords. Martyr hits, and I gain 9, buffing me to 26. It's obvious he's unfamiliar with DnT, as I've played my roommate's fish deck and had a much harder time keeping the moms and second vial i played next. Avenger and stoneforge land after reejery on his turn and i proceed to bash face, adding a grunt to the ranks. His turn, he pops up an image in the hopes of protecting him from Avenger. I say no one puts baby in a corner and target it with a swords. Stoneforge equips avenger with jitte and he submits at 5 life.

Game 2 is pretty open-shut. He, revealing afterwards, kept a hand with a daze, kira, image and no fishies. Turn-2 vial with mana open for daze and the mangara engine show him the error of his ways, and an army of wisps and avengers get him overhead.

Round 2: Sneak Attack

Game 1 threw me for a loop. Weird lands like crystal vein and blackcleave cliffs keep me scratching my head. The only note i had for the game was: "Canonist like a champ." Apparently the bottlenecking was too much and my repeated swings with grunt, avenger & co. got him to 8 before he quit.

Game 2 starts off with a pants-crapper. Dark rit, 3 lotus petals and suddenly it's sneak attack with 2 rune-scarred demons. Yikes. I'm at 8 and find myself struggling to cobble together my vague knowledge of Sneak Attack. My solution stares me in the face on my turn: Karakas. Followed by revoker & vial, I eventually stabilize and pin him down for some intense playtime with grunt, thanks to the graveyard snacks provided by his petals and sneak. He uses ingot chewer to dispose of revoker, but has nothing to sneak in. Also of note: was able to pull his blightsteel off a gamble and kept a swords in-hand, just in case. He gives in only when i get him at 1.

Round 3: Junk

Game 1 By this point, I'd heard of an elf deck rising in the ranks. Not fun, since I know how explosive that can get. And with no cataclysms, I'm especially screwed by swarms. So when my opponent dropped a forest first turn, I got concerned. However, it turns out to be similar to the above, as goyf and bayou show up next turn. The Rock, I think, not knowing it to actually be Junk. 3 moms and a martyr rush out turn 2 & 3, just in time to meet 2 more goyfs and Mr. Thrun. Wasteland punishes his bayou, while flickerwisp and port denies him his Maze of Ith. A needle stops my port dead, but too late for him. The fliers take him to 8 before he quits.

Game 2 Finally some recognition! He calls me out on being D&T, the first person to recognize my deck here; however, it's only because he tried to make it himself. He pops out a fetch, myself a wasteland and the fun begins. He searches, but instead I play Arbiter and lock out his tutoring. Next turn sees vial, bye bye to the bayou he grabbed with WL and a mom. A few dead turns go by for him while my my beatsticks wear him out. I only gain life--this time from a swords'd arbiter. However, even with the ability to fetch, he's at 8 and next turn folds to and avenger and 2 wisps.

Round 4: What IS This?

Game 1 and I'm seeing lavamancer followed by Bob. BR Burn? A variant of the The Gate? Regardless I revoke the mancer, swords the confidant and use stoneforge to fetch jitte. I'm smacked sideways by hymn to tourach. I make the decision to save the avenger in my 3-card hand and drop the rest. I'm hellbent most of the game, which would be great for his bizarre choice of Nezumi Shortfang/Stabwhisker the Odious, if he had the time to sink the mana into it. However, swords, wasteland and a combo of fliers and well-fed grunt screw him out of the chance, grabbing me the win.

Game 2 and I realize this to be a homebrew, pure and simple. Still, the hymns and shortfang give him an early advantage, forcing grunts and other goodies out. However, I revoke the shortfang, SFM an L&S and equip, swinging to return a wisp he denied me. He bolts the revoker, so I cast the wisp, flickering a land for swordsing. Next turn, wisp hits him, returning the revoker. I recast the hatebear, and on his turn he bolts the wisp. In top-deck-hero mode, I get SoFI, equip them both to revoker and make the guy pay up. Next turn, mom turns revoker into a rainbow-proof tank, and the extra damage from the swords are too much for him to handle.

All in all, D&T netted me $125 in credit and probably one of the best times I've had at a tourney in years. I attribute some of the wins to unpreparedness or ignorance of the deck; however, I still think the deck did very well regardless.

from Cairo

10-30-2011, 03:52 AM

Ran this deck tonight at a local, only played 5 games (bye, Dredge 2-0, DD-Hexmage Rock 2-1), so not much to report on. Flickerwisp and mana disruption were fire. Mangara and Karakas wouldn't line up for me, so both felt underwhelming, but having got the lock in the past I know it's solid.

I ran the list posted above -1 Plains +1 Horizon Canopy. I felt 3 Canopy is too many, I got stuck taking a fair bit of damage a couple games from doub Canopy, so I will be going back to the 10 Plains 2 Canopy configuration.

My Sb was

3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Retribution of the Meek
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Null Rod (should be Stony Silence)
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Phyrexian Metamorph

Think I will be dropping the Retributions and Macabres for the 4th Enlightened, 4th Jotun, 3rd Mirran and a Nevermore.

Finn

11-18-2011, 10:47 AM

I have been testing again and, as one might have guessed, D+T pounds both the RUG and Bant decks that are so popular. I recommend a bit more removal though. It may be time to bring back Oust for awhile. The biggest reason I have noticed is that they are AGAIN getting too aggressive with their manabases. Considering the deck is strong against Reanimator, anything with the word "Stoneblade" in it, and of course Merfolk, this is a pretty good time to take it to a SCG Open.

Seems Good

11-21-2011, 12:30 PM

Just finished building this yesterday, seems like a blast. I can definitely attest that this build romps RUG builds, I'm sure the same is true for Bant. Maybe adding some copies of Path to Exile instead of Oust?

Also, what equipment setup does everyone think is optimal right now? I would argue for Sword of Body and Mind given the current meta as well as the fact that both triggered abilities are super underrated. Maybe Sword of Light and Shadow as the second blade? Definitely generated some serious card advantage and even "combos" with Martyr.

dsck

11-21-2011, 01:04 PM

Maybe adding some copies of Path to Exile instead of Oust?

Lol, this has been discussed probably on every page on this thread.

Koby

11-21-2011, 01:32 PM

SoFI and Jitte are for sure the right call. The last Sword is really the one that's up for discussion. I think that some :w: sword should be included maindeck, and of the remaining colors that would need to project from, :b: seems like the best utility. Considering that some RUG decks also run Dismember should be reason enough to warrant SoLaS.

That's essentially the equipment package I run with Maverick (which isn't really too far off in strategy from D&T).

ArthurGress

11-21-2011, 08:31 PM

I've alredy posted this on salvation,

Its my report from Brazilian Legacy National(13/November/2011)

I traveled around 1,3 thousand Km to São Paulo (I live in the south) to play the National. Players had to qualify in smaller tournaments all around the country to get the opportunity to play the national. I qualified with Forgemaster combo.

There were around 130 players, and I was with 5 friends. I made 42’ (3 wins, 1 Loss, 3 Draws). The others were 20’, 25’ and 9’ (bad luck, he didn’t entered top 8) and a drop.

The decklist.

Maindeck:

4 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
11 Plains

4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Mother of Runes
3 Jotun Grunt
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Flickerwisp
3 Mangara of Corondor
4 Serra Avenger

4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
4 AEther Vial

Sideboard:

3 Leonin Arbiter
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Circle of Protection: Green
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Batterskull
1 Runed Halo

About the Main deck, I don’t feel that I need to change anything. The list is very good and consistent. About the sideboard, I would have changed only one thing: Runed Halo. That was useless. I really liked the CoP’s in the sideboard, and the CoP Green in my opinion needs to be in every SB of this deck, since right now it stops almost every big creature. The Red one was there because what I’ve heard before the Tournament.

Round 1 – Zoo (1-2)

Game 1:
He starts with Ape, beats me 2 times, and then played a Qasali. He bolted my threats and I couldn’t equip anything.

Game 2:
He starts with Wild Cat and bolts my Forge. I play Jotun equipped with Fire Ice and it goes for the Victory.

Game 3:
He starts again with Wild Cat, then ape, then Goyf. I remember having 2 Flickerwisp, being confident about winning this game, but he bolts one Wisp and a Grim Lavamancer (previously revoked) kills the other. Then he races me.

Round 2 – BW Blade (1-1)

Game 1:
He starts very slowly, giving me a thoughtseize and a Hymn. He used a StP in my Jötun, then I beat him with 3 Serra Avengers.

Game 2:
I don’t remember this one much, but he sided in a lot of hate against creatures, never giving me the chance to equip and beat.

Game 3:
No much time left, he was at 3 life with: Batterskull, Bitterblossom, 2 Faerie Tokens and a Top.
I had a Mother of Runes and a Serra Avenger. He was going to pass turn and I would give to Serra pro Black, attack and won, but in his turn he used top, fetch to shuffle, Top again, draw, and used StP in my already tapped Mother. I attacked, he blocked, than in his turn he increased his life with Batterskull. Time was over, draw.

Round 3 – Enchantress (1-1)

Game 1:
I knew his deck because last round I watched him playing, so I was all agro, leaving him with 6 life. Then he played Solitary Confinement, making all that draws and playing more and more, you know, useless enchantments. I could killed him if I had a Wisp or Mangara, to remove his Confinement and attack. He played Cadaverous Bloom, then he removed half deck from his hand and played half his deck. The time passed, and passed, OMG.
Then with 12 spells in stack he played Tendrils of Agony.

Game 2:
I begin, and in the end of his turn, I played tutor, get Canonist. After that, I slowly beated him down. Yes, that easy.

Game 3:
Same as game 2, the difference is that I had Canonist in my opening hand. But the time was over. Another Draw.

Round 4 – NO Bant (1-1)

Game 1:
I made an early pressure, with Mother, Forge and Flickerwisp. It was too late when he used NO, and I won with a Stoneforge equipped with Jitte and Light Shadow.

Game 2:
I had the game controlled, but he used NO and I couldn’t find any sideboard/answer.

Game 3:
With 2 StP I killed his creatures, he didn’t had the opportunity to use NO, and, in the last turn possible, he was at 10 and I attacked with 2 Flickerwisps causing 10 (7/3 because of Jitte).
He used Snakeform, leaving him with 2 life. He passed the turn, than the game finished.
Draw.

Round 5 – Zoo (2-1)

I won this game 2-0. I was sitting in the wrong table (I thought I saw “table 28”, but mine was 38), then the judge send me to the right one and gave me a game loss. Yeah, **** me.

Game 1:
He mulled to 5, I punished him with 2 wastes and a Jotun equipped.

Game 2:
He played Ape and Goblin guide, I used StP in the Ape and the Guide attacked 4 times, revealing 4 lands (I love Goblin Guide after this haha). In his turn, I used tutor, get CoP Red and beat him down with a Serra Avenger.

Round 6 – Dredge (2-0)

I consider this round a bye

Game 1: Vial, Jotun, GG.

Game 2: Tutors, Grave Hate, Beat him with Serra equipped with Jitte. He still got around 8 tokens, Flickerwisp removed 1, Serra blocked another, Jitte killed another. End.

Round 7 – NO Bant (2-1)

Game 1:
He mulled to 5, and I beat him with Serra Avenger and a Jotun Grunt. After this game he tells me that he had 5 lands in his opening hand.

Game 2:
He uses Vendillion Clique choosing my Phyrexian Metamorph, then uses NO.

Game 3:
This Game was the longest. We were the only players still playing the round 7.
I remember winning with a Batterskull. The Germ Token was equipped with the Skull, Fire Ice and Jitte. He had a Tarmogoyf, Relicary, Noble and Dryad Arbor. I gave the Germ Token pro Green and Beated him down.

Hope you liked the report. I really enjoyed playing with Death & Taxes. Sorry if I made any writing mistakes. Cya.

Penguinizer

12-15-2011, 06:18 PM

With the Finnish Legacy Championships coming up again, I decided it was time to dust off the deck and get back into tweaking it. I'm still working on a build I found successful last Summer some smaller tournaments I went to.

7x Plains
4x Karakas
4x Wasteland
3x Flagstones of Trokair
3x Rishadan Port

4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Aether Vial
1x Sword of fire and Ice
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Batterskull

4x Mother of runes
4x Serra Avenger
2x Leonin Relic-Warder
4x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Jötun Grunt
3x Phyrexian Revoker
3x Mangara of Corondor
4x Flickerwisp

//Sideboard
1x Serenity
1x Never More
1x Stony Silence
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Wheel of the Sun and Moon
1x Phyrexian Metamorph
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Pithing Needle
3x Wing Shards
3x Enlightened Tutor

The only big things I'll be changing is the removal of something from the SB in favor of adding Sword of Feast and Famine. I'm also considering replacing Wing Shards with another answer to re-animator since it hasn't proven that impressive. I'm considering Revenge of the Meek or Meekstone. Something of that sort.

Seems Good

12-16-2011, 09:39 AM

Wow Retribution of the Meek ...this card seems insane. Anyone playtest it?

Einherjer

12-16-2011, 11:00 AM

Yeah this card is great, you hit all the relevant Threats of the modern metagame:
Delver of Secrets, Snapcaster, Stoneforge, Confidant, Lavamancer, Goblin Guide, Wild Nacatl, Nible Mongoose and so on...

Nah honestly, how often are you going to find more than ONE Knight of the Relinquary or 4/5 Goyf... Not very often to be honest, the times of NaturalOrder are over.

Greetings

Seems Good

12-16-2011, 12:30 PM

I see this card as situationally powerful. For example, when you're up shits creek against, say fish because they have 3 lords and a dude, so you're staring at 4 4/4 or bigger dudes, and you have like, an Avenger and Revoker, the card is a total freakin blowout. Again this is very situational, but it might warrant 2 or so slots in the SB?

I agree that the current meta is infested with small guys right now, but for 2W, this card seems like it could be quite a blowout.

eq.firemind

01-12-2012, 12:44 AM

So now we have a Glowrider that costs :1::w:, has First Strike and is legendary. I guess it's a good 3-of in our 75.

saspook

01-12-2012, 02:00 AM

This list just took top 8 at scg Atlanta.

Maindeck:

Artifacts
4 Aether Vial
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Artifact Creatures
3 Phyrexian Revoker

Creatures
1 Aven Mindcensor
4 Flickerwisp
3 Jotun Grunt
4 Mother of Runes
4 Serra Avenger
4 Stoneforge Mystic

Instants
4 Swords to Plowshares

Legendary Artifacts
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Legendary Creatures
3 Mangara of Corondor

Basic Lands
10 Plains

Lands
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

Legendary Lands
4 Karakas

Sideboard:
1 Batterskull
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Leonin Arbiter
1 Absolute Law
1 Aura of Silence
1 Stony Silence
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
3 Enlightened Tutor

Finn

01-13-2012, 09:46 AM

Firemind, I will probably be trying out two in the main and one in the side at first. It's a near certainty that this card is going to be good in D&T. But the deck has become so tight, the question is what to take out.

Penguinizer

01-13-2012, 02:38 PM

I'm thinking of running it as a 3-of since I have 3 flex slots at the moment. Currently I'm running 2 Leonin Relic Warder and 1 extra equipment.

Anyways, I may or may not be going into the Finnish Legacy championships this year. I forgot to enter on time so they were full when I remembered to check. If I do get in, I'll do a writeup.

DukeDemonKn1ght

01-13-2012, 04:18 PM

Thalia, Guardian of Thraben is bananas-good in this deck, from my perspective. She's about the highest-quality hate bear white has gotten so far, or at least second to Ethersworn Canonist, she holds equipment like a beast, and she can do cute Karakas tricks. What's not to love?

Penguinizer

01-14-2012, 11:47 AM

I got into the Finnish Legacy Champs even though I hadn't entered on time since a bunch of players couldn't make it. However, my performance was abysmal (1-3 drop). My Sideboard lacked vital cards and the fact I didn't have a Batterskull hurt in some matchups.

Here was my list:
MD: 60
7x Plains
4x Karakas
3x Flagstones of Trokair
4x Wasteland
3x Rishadan Port

4x Aether Vial
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Umezawa's Jitte

4x Mother of Runes
3x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Serra Avenger
4x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Jötun Grunt
2x Leonin Relic-warder
4x Flickerwisp
3x Mangara of Corondor

1x Elspeth, Knight Errant

SB: 15
3x Enlightened Tutor
3x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Phyrexian Metamorph
1x Wheel of the Sun and Moon
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Pithing Needle
1x Serenity
1x Stony Silence
1x Never More
1x Hex Parasite
1x Crucible of Worlds

I should have had an Oblivion Ring or an Aura of Silence or something targeted in the SB. I don't know why I didn't think about it when I was making the decklist. The Elspeth was supposted to be a batterskull but I forgot to find and borrow one.

Round 1: 2-1 vs. Pox
Long drawn out matches against Pox. It was a struggle in each one until I got a creature with a sword to stick. In the third one the singleton Elspeth somehow turned out good by letting me swing over his mishra's factories. I sided out revoker and a Mommy to bring in 2 tutors, Wheel of Sun and Moon and Crucible

Round 2: Belcher happened. 0-2

Round 3: Bant. 0-2
Game 1: Long drawn out game, Maze of Ith and jace eventually let him win with a Knight of the Reliquary. Engineered Explosives destroying my turn 1 vial hurt. I eventually lost because I was swinging with 2 serra avengers with 1 being mazed and was using Vial at 3+karakas to infinitely chump KotR with Mangara. One got removed when he was at 1 hp. I couldn't get the last one through maze. I should just have chumped with one angel to remove the maze and finish him off.

Game 2: was rather similar with him playing an early elspeth that got revokered. I get a Jitte with my Stoneforge Mystic. I play an avenger but get hit by EE at 2. can't overcome Elspeth with an empty board and scoop.

Round 4: RGW Maverick (at this point I was at some level mentally guard broken and was secondguessing a lot of my earlier plays and deck construction choices).
Game 1: I go full retard while mulliganing and deservedly lost.
Game 2: I can't find an answer to batterskull and lose because of it. Nearly won but Mommy+Birds slowed my Serra Avenger beatdown while Tower of the Magistrate meant I couldn't get sword hits through.

I dropped because I didn't have a chance at top 8 and I was fairly frustrated at my misplays and bad deckbuilding decisions.