[Deck] Death and Taxes

[Finn]

Pretty crappy, Penguinizer. I typically do not do so well against Pox. But then I usually beat Bant and Maverick. Also, I hear about the Finnish nationals every single year. Is it a big event or just the only one nearby?

@DDK: I think most of us agree that Thalia is going to be nuckin' futs. As cool as it is though, I kinda wish it weren't a legend so we could have four. There really is not anything in the deck hurt much by it either. Paying 4 for a weapon can get cumbersome, but we will probably be using Mystics for that. As mana hungry as this deck is, it really does not cast a lot of spells.

[Penguinizer]

It's a 100 or so person event that's held yearly. There are smaller tournaments at least once or twice a month but they don't have anything close to the prize pool the champs get.

Anyways, the Maverick and Bant matches should have been mine but I made some critical misplays or didn't have the right SB cards. With them it could have gone better. Next time's the charm I suppose.

[Gheizen64]

I've tested Thalia in some D&T lists. Just wow. With a karakas or a mom out she's like the most annoying creature ever for decks with tight manabases. Can't be blocked by snapcaster and Delver, make flashback cost for snapcaster a bitch, make most removal irrelevant since it's hard for them to play two removal with increased mana cost in response to the karakas/mom ability etc...

Feelsgoodman

[AggroSteve]

i was wondering if we could use her like isamaru with karakas before the m10 rule-changes, because of first strike

i am not sure if that could work, but in theory it should, but my knowledge of the rules is not the best

[lebarion]

i was wondering if we could use her like isamaru with karakas before the m10 rule-changes, because of first strike

i am not sure if that could work, but in theory it should, but my knowledge of the rules is not the best

Wow, I haven't realized this before, but indeed you can bounce her after the first strike damage, before regular damage. Also, first strike let you abuse Jitte shenanigans.
I believe she'll be at least a two-of.

[eq.firemind]

Grafdigger's Cage :1:
Artifact
Creature cards can't enter the battlefield from graveyards and libraries
Players can't cast cards in graveyards or libraries.

God loves us!

[timmycolossus]

Thalia in testing is good. What do we cut for this creature though? I ran 3 in the main in testing and found it to be too much. I think two is the correct number. I wish it was not legendary to have multiple on the field.

Your guys thoughts on the card?

[Finn]

Timmy, the number to include is going to be heavily influenced by how much the opponents will want to be rid of it. It is remarkably similar to Stoneforge Mystic in that sense. I do not really want to resolve more than one of these in a game. But my opponents are so keen to counter it that I have discovered that the fourth is necessary.

So, if it is truly the bomb that everyone seems to think it will be, we may indeed want three or even four in the main with the expectation that most opponents will have to be rid of it quickly. If it is more situation than it appears, I may go with two in the main and one or two in the side.

[timmycolossus]

@ Finn: Thanks for the response.

[ReinVos]

I've played this deck for a couple of months before dismantling it and turning it into Maverick. Maybe this question has been asked and answered in this thread, but I wanted to know from the current D&T playerbase why they choose this deck over Maverick? It seems Maverick basically does the same thing, only better.

Mangara of Corondor and Serra Avenger have lost a lot of power in my opinion. Lightning Bolt is all over the place, and it handily answers both creatures before they get the chance to do something. In today's meta, Vindicate seems to be too slow. Not to mention Vindicate with summoning sickness...

D&T likes to play the control role (much like Maverick), but does it really have the same tools to combat the current metagame? Yes, Mangara of Corondor gives great inevitability to the deck, but can Vial and the white utility men really compete with the utility of both a GSZ package and a Knight package?

I'm not looking for answers like: ''Well, clearly not, otherwise D&T would be a deck to beat and Maverick wouldn't.'' Some of you have made the decision of playing this deck, knowing there's a DTB that plays a similar game; creature-based control through utility creatures, coupled with some beef and equipments.

In other words, before Maverick got big, D&T was an obscure deck that a lot of people didn't know or understand. Now that we have a DTB that plays the ''same'' game, I'm sure that a lot of players have a better idea of addressing the D&T match-up (because of experience vs. Maverick), losing some of the strength this deck used to have.

I'm retired from playing D&T for a good couple of months now but would love to hear the insight of the current generation of D&T players as I'm sure there are a lot of good reasons for playing this deck. I used to have tons of fun with it.

Maybe Green & Taxes is the direction this deck looks to be heading? Scavenging Ooze could shore up weaknesses that otherwise could only be addressed fom the board.

[Barbed Blightning]

I've played this deck for a couple of months before dismantling it and turning it into Maverick. Maybe this question has been asked and answered in this thread, but I wanted to know from the current D&T playerbase why they choose this deck over Maverick? It seems Maverick basically does the same thing, only better.

Mangara of Corondor and Serra Avenger have lost a lot of power in my opinion. Lightning Bolt is all over the place, and it handily answers both creatures before they get the chance to do something. In today's meta, Vindicate seems to be too slow. Not to mention Vindicate with summoning sickness...

D&T likes to play the control role (much like Maverick), but does it really have the same tools to combat the current metagame? Yes, Mangara of Corondor gives great inevitability to the deck, but can Vial and the white utility men really compete with the utility of both a GSZ package and a Knight package?

I'm not looking for answers like: ''Well, clearly not, otherwise D&T would be a deck to beat and Maverick wouldn't.'' Some of you have made the decision of playing this deck, knowing there's a DTB that plays a similar game; creature-based control through utility creatures, coupled with some beef and equipments.

In other words, before Maverick got big, D&T was an obscure deck that a lot of people didn't know or understand. Now that we have a DTB that plays the ''same'' game, I'm sure that a lot of players have a better idea of addressing the D&T match-up (because of experience vs. Maverick), losing some of the strength this deck used to have.

I'm retired from playing D&T for a good couple of months now but would love to hear the insight of the current generation of D&T players as I'm sure there are a lot of good reasons for playing this deck. I used to have tons of fun with it.

Maybe Green & Taxes is the direction this deck looks to be heading? Scavenging Ooze could shore up weaknesses that otherwise could only be addressed fom the board.

I play both D&T and Maverick, but both decks--at least in my opinion--play vastly different. Mav has some control, sure, but it's ultimately all about giving a dude a stick to beat up your opponent.

D&T does this as well, but plays more of a control game. Rishadan Ports and Wastes deny early mana sources and slow the game down, along with the added time given by thalia. Jotun Grunts shrink yards and goyfs, revokers shutdown some decks completely (and cripple decks like mav) and flickerwisp is seriously one of the most underrated creatures in legacy. When combined with Vial, D&T is able to make things hurt on an opponent's turn, esp. during their upkeep.

Also, Mangara almost never has summoning sickness; you activate the vial EOT and if there is no response, he comes in. He has no ETB to trigger, and since your opponent has passed priority to you EOT, he can't be bolted (unless I'm somehow gravely wrong on how priority works :P) Also, he EXILES permanents, preventing recursion.

I play D&T because I love taxing my opponents to death. Legacy is a money game imo, and I really dislike how people can simply buy their way to the top. D&T is one of those decks that, for relatively little money, is competitive and economic--and really good at punishing the greediest money-decks in legacy.

[trivial_matters]

Also, Mangara almost never has summoning sickness; you activate the vial EOT and if there is no response, he comes in. He has no ETB to trigger, and since your opponent has passed priority to you EOT, he can't be bolted (unless I'm somehow gravely wrong on how priority works :P)

Once Aether Vial's ability resolves and Mangara is put into play, your opponent has priority and can play any instant he wishes.

[nwong]

Mav and DnT are very different. Mav just presents threat after threat after threat until you die. DnT shuts down parts of your game until it can give a dude a stick and win.

Mav doesn't even really run the same cards as us, apart from the SFM package and Mum. In fact, Mav evolved from GW DnT, and ended up dropping most of the disruption pieces for more beef.

[Barbed Blightning]

Once Aether Vial's ability resolves and Mangara is put into play, your opponent has priority and can play any instant he wishes.

Really? even though they've passed priority on their EOT step? I thought that they wouldn't be able to cast a spell until the end of my upkeep.

[nwong]

Really? even though they've passed priority on their EOT step? I thought that they wouldn't be able to cast a spell until the end of my upkeep.

After Mangara resolves they get priority back, because it's their turn.

[ReinVos]

But the strategy of threat after threat Maverick is presenting is aimed towards shutting the other deck down, just like Death & Taxes. If you're aggro, I'll get my Knight to block your guys and fetch out a Maze of Ith. If you're Show and Tell, I'd like a Knight to find a Karakas. If you're Dredge or Reanimator, I'll find an Ooze, Thrun for Stoneblade and if you're burn, I'd like Mystic to find me a Jitte. Mother of Runes is there to protect your future bombs from getting answered, which makes it an equally dangerous threat.

[Justin]

After Mangara resolves they get priority back, because it's their turn.

A step, phase, or turn does not end until both players have consecutively passed priority. If one player vials in a creature at the end of the turn, the other player will have an opportunity to do something before the turn ends. It doesn't matter whose turn it is. So if you vial in Mangara EOT and pass priority, your opponent will have priority one more time and have a chance to remove it if they can.

[Finn]

@Barbed Blightning, I have read other people say that Vial is just like haste with Mangara also. I think they mean that as an approximation.

@ReinVos, pretty interesting question. I have put some thought into this.

Let me begin with the fact that I have never used Maverick proper, and my only experiences with the deck come from facing it with D+T. It does not usually go well for Maverick. The reason, I think, is because Maverick is tuned for a metagame that does not include D+T. It has three different search engines in the same deck. That is pretty amazing really, but it also means that there are a decent number of bad cards in any Maverick deck against something like D+T. I bring this up primarily because it is case in point for how the decks differ.

Maverick reactively calls up specific answers to handle the threats that it faces. By contrast, D+T proactively uses generic effects (taxes) that dilute or limit the effectiveness of whatever opponent it faces. This is certainly not a rule of thumb. After all, the two decks share a lot of common elements so they must overlap in a few ways. And it is not even a proper description in terms of time. But, when looking for differences, that seems to highlight the broad outlines. This has implications for a number of different aspects of play.

When using Maverick, you really have to know your deck. You have to be able to analyze what is the right card to fetch to handle the game state. In D+T, you also really have to know your opponent's deck too. Your tools are not straight forward so you have to be able to know the way to disrupt so that it hurts the opponent most using nibbling tactics instead of gulping tactics. It is not for everyone.

For Mav, a good pilot is necessary, but it is only as good as the answers it runs. Because the tools in D+T are so malleable, there is greater room to outplay your opponent. For D+T, good answers are necessary, but it is only as good as its pilot.

That is why D+T beats Mav, I think. D+T's tools are not hoping to see a Maverick-type of opponent either. But they are agile enough to adapt on their own where Maverick can sacrifice a bit of tempo here and there to fetch imperfect tools from its deck. It is the same for D+T against any opponent that is permanent-dependent (rather than stack-dependent).

[Barbed Blightning]

A step, phase, or turn does not end until both players have consecutively passed priority. If one player vials in a creature at the end of the turn, the other player will have an opportunity to do something before the turn ends. It doesn't matter whose turn it is. So if you vial in Mangara EOT and pass priority, your opponent will have priority one more time and have a chance to remove it if they can.

But you're vialing him in after they pass priority during their end step. They can respond to Vial's activation (stifle, etc) but unless mangara's causing an ability to trigger (intruder alarm, say) there is nothing to respond to, thus no chance to bolt him. In fact, the proper way of using vial is to announce that you are activating it, and not overstepping your bounds by immediately tossing your dude out.

This is all knit picky, and I'm probably incorrect on turn structure, but I want to make sure I get these things straight before I go to the GP in march. :P

While we're on the topic of rules nonsense, can someone explain to me how flickering a flickerwisp flickers out another permanent through the next turn?

[nwong]

The key word is "consecutively" pass priority. After Vial is done resolving, priority returns to them because they are the active player.

As for Flickerwisp, if you play one and target your own Wisp, at end of turn, your exiled Wisp will return. You can then exile something with it. This will have missed the "at end of turn" trigger, and the permanent will return at the next opportunity, ie. at the end of the next turn, not the current one.

[workingdude]

But you're vialing him in after they pass priority during their end step. They can respond to Vial's activation (stifle, etc) but unless mangara's causing an ability to trigger (intruder alarm, say) there is nothing to respond to, thus no chance to bolt him. In fact, the proper way of using vial is to announce that you are activating it, and not overstepping your bounds by immediately tossing your dude out.

This is all knit picky, and I'm probably incorrect on turn structure, but I want to make sure I get these things straight before I go to the GP in march. :P

While we're on the topic of rules nonsense, can someone explain to me how flickering a flickerwisp flickers out another permanent through the next turn?

Okay, so its during your opponent's end step. They pass priority. You tap Aether Vial. You pass priority to see if your opponent has any responses. They have no responses to Aether Vial, so they pass priority. Aether Vial's ability occurs and you put in Mangara. Your opponent, the active player, then gets priority with nothing on the stack. He can bolt it at that time. If he does not bolt it, and instead passes priority, you then can pass priority back and then proceed to your turn.

[Barbed Blightning]

But there is nothing to respond to, and they have already passed priority. That's my point--how would they get priority after passing it? They have a chance to respond, but only to the vial activation.

I'll ask an official on this, just want to make sure I understand how this works. :P

[Justin]

But you're vialing him in after they pass priority during their end step. They can respond to Vial's activation (stifle, etc) but unless mangara's causing an ability to trigger (intruder alarm, say) there is nothing to respond to, thus no chance to bolt him. In fact, the proper way of using vial is to announce that you are activating it, and not overstepping your bounds by immediately tossing your dude out.

This is all knit picky, and I'm probably incorrect on turn structure, but I want to make sure I get these things straight before I go to the GP in march. :P

While we're on the topic of rules nonsense, can someone explain to me how flickering a flickerwisp flickers out another permanent through the next turn?

To be more specific on what I said earlier, a step/phase/turn does not end until both players consecutively pass priority with an empty stack. If a Player A passes priority during the end step, but Player B then puts something on the stack (such as an Aether Vial trigger), Player A will have priority again before the turn ends. The stack does not become empty until that trigger resolves. When the creature enters the battlefield, the turn will not end until both players consecutively pass priority with an empty stack. Player A can still remove the creature or do anything else.

As for the Flickerwisp question. The errata says "Return that card to the battlefield under its owner's control at the BEGINNING of the NEXT end step." The key words are BEGINNING and NEXT. So if you vial in a Flickerwisp during an end step and exile a permanent, then that permanent will not return until the next player's end step. A permanent is not exiled and returned during the same end step.

[Finn]

BB, after the stack resolves active player gets priority again. A step (or phase) does not end until both players pass on an empty stack.

EDIT
Ahh, ninja'd

[mrjumbo03]

What happens is:
During the endstep, Active players passes priority to you
You respond with Vial activation
You pass back priority to him and he passes it back, and with both players passing it without any action, the top part of the stack resolves, which is the Vial activation, you now put in Mangara
At this point, he then has priority once more, and he can do things such as STP-ing your Mangara until he passes it back to you. When he passes without doing anything, and you pass just the same, then and only then will you move to the next phase or the end of the turn.

2 players must pass priority without doing anything before a step on the stack or a change in the phase can resolve/happen.

That's how I understand it.

Edit: Who said only Blue players love the stack? Haha

[AggroSteve]

Edit: Who said only Blue players love the stack? Haha

:D
where is facebook's like it button ?


this conversation helped me out a bit too, now i can explain my friend why i was in the right, thx

btw, has anyone tested a lot with thalia, guardian of thraben (hope the name is right), as i would love to see your feedback on her, as she looks quite good, and an addictional creature to abuse both jitte and karakas

[Wynk]

I've tested Thalia vs. Reanimator, Burn, Zoo, Nic Fit, UW Stoneblade/Counterbalance and a D & T mirror on Cockatrice this weekend and loved it in every game but the mirror. Even against Zoo it was excellent. I maindecked 3.

In 5 of the 6 matches, it had major applications in delaying my opponent until I gained control.

Nic Fit found itself one land behind nearly every game. It delayed Pernicious Deed, Green Sun's Zenith and acted as a great tax. Its not a game breaker but it was a nice supplement to Wasteland, Port and Mangara.

UW Stoneblade/Counterbalance Forced it when it could. Its a must answer for them during the early game. This leaves them fewer answers to handle Mangara, Vial and Mother of Runes. For example, I landed Thalia turn 2. This made them tap out to pay 3 for a Counterbalance. On my turn I cast Mangara unapposed. I didn't have to worry about countermagic. Its not an I win card but it forces them to make more choices, allowing more playing mistakes. Its great spell snare bait allowing you to land a Stoneforge later on. However, this is already a good matchup.

Burn hated it. Lost them tempo and eventually the game once jitte came online. Still a tough matchup. Its only a speed bump but it handles Goblin Guide and demands a removal spell. That's 3 less damage to my head. Its definitely a card you want in your 75.

It made the Reanimator match even stronger. Thalia was Forced when my opponent finally realized what she did. When it landed it gave me several extra turns of development to solidify my position. Serra Avenger with a Mother of Runes kills/delays Reanimator anyway.

Zoo: Laid a turn 1 Vial. My opponent landed a Taiga for a Nacatyl and passed.
I upped my vial to 1, wastelanded the Taiga and took 1 from the Nacatyl on my opponent's turn. It seems he kept a one land hand. Vialed in Mother.

Turn 2 I played a Karakas and vialed in Thalia. I had 2 Avengers in hand. My opponent scooped. Thalia effectively acted as a pseudo Leonin Arbiter that can bounce back to your hand. Its good.

Death & Tax mirror: It dies to itself and is bounced by Karakas. Sideboarded it out.

Thalia synergizes with this deck. Thalia supports the tax aspect and barely even slows you down. It combos with Stoneforge, Wasteland, Port and Karakas. Thalia's first strike allows it to be a threat and stay alive despite its 2/1 stats. It loves equipment. I was never unhappy to see it early, even when I had 2 in hand. If you cast it early, you tend to be winning. I think 3 is nearly mandatory and vs. some matchups, 4 is perfectly acceptable.

It hates on control, combo, spell based decks and doesn't die immediately vs. aggro. For example, its maindeck storm hate, delays the dreaded Show and Tell by at least a turn and is strong/acceptable in nearly all other matchups. Its not even double white which makes it better than Abolisher and it doesn't affect Stoneforge like Leonin Arbiter. It makes your strong matchups stronger and shores up your weak matchups.

Its all that and a bag of chips while not being obviously overpowered. And we are one of the few decks that can really use it which may keep the price low. :)

Over the weekend went 12/3 with game losses to Reanimator, D and T, and Nic Fit. Won all 6 matches.
However, its not the strongest card late game. And it effects your ability to cast some of your sideboard cards.

P.S.: Seriously though, it did little to nothing in the Death and Taxes mirror. :) Sword of Light and Shadow was an MVP.

[_erbs_]

Hello,
Now that thalia is part of DT, is flickerwisp worth the slot ?, I know it has bags of tricks but at times it boils down to stabilizing board position or holding off opposing creatures. Flickerwisp can save you 1 turn but after it passes it just becomes a 3/1 flyer which is not a bad clock.

I've been testing DT on mws this weekend and haven't missed it, mirran was solid in my testing, it provided me a faster clock after locking my opponents with ports and thalia.

I also have 2 glowriders in my sideboard for added disruption.

As for thalia count currently im running 3, i think its the right number aswell as like what the above posters, when it hits the board i will have a high probability that it will get countered or killed afterwards.

But when the opportunity doesnt present to maximize wisp's ability it just becomes a 3/1 flyer. Im sure there is a 50% chance that wisps just becomes a 2cc 3/1 flyer targeting your own land or some random stuff. This is whats bugging me when it comes to this event i feel mirran is superior to wisp or im still missing something.

[Barbed Blightning]

All right, I've seen the light; I'll stop badgering y'all with my stack-related inquires. :P

@erbs: Flickerwisp should always stay at 4x. No question--it's just too useful. Mirran is just swords/grim/bolt fodder in my opinion--a great beater, but at the end of the day, just a dumb beater. Flickerwisp has so many more applications that you're only targeting your own land (or something along those lines) when you've got the game under your thumb. Even if you're backpedaling, flicker is still great for SFM tutoring, taking out attackers/blockers, and the aforementioned tricks.

My point is that Flickerwisp is as aggressive as Crusader, yet as controlling as Mangara. Whereas Mirran waits a turn before he rages all up in your opponent's grill, Flickerwisp immidiately messes with them, and repeatedly swings afterwards, lest they sacrifice their clique/whatever. Also, Wisp looooves holding a sword.

[Wynk]

Hello,
Now that thalia is part of DT, is flickerwisp worth the slot ?,

I feel Flickerwisp is one of the most flexible creatures in the deck. Its not an offensive powerhouse like Mirran Crusader however. It won't outright win you the game and make you write an article about it. What it does is supplement your strategy subtly. It does everything sort of well, and on occasion, backbreakingly well. Don't think of it as a creature. Think of it as utility/combat trick with a creature thrown in.

I tend to wait to cast it or vial it in for best effect. I don't think of it as a beatdown creature very often unless I have no other creatures on board. This means it can wait in my hand for several turns before I use it.

With Mirran I would cast it immediately and beat face.

Mirran Crusader: (Power option)
Evasion: Pro Green and Black:
Double Strike: Ends the game quickly. Its a beater. It does what it does well, but that's all it does.

Flickerwisp: (Swiss army knife option)
Evasion: Flying
Flicker ability: Bounces equipment, resets counters, gets rid of blockers, gets rid of attackers, saves your creatures, Combos with Mangara and Stoneforge, etc.

Both: Dies to removal. Both are great with equipment, Mirran amazingly so.

Your playstyle will probably determine which card you like better for D and T. Make this comparison: Which would you rather have? A Tarmogoyf (power) or a Qasali Pridemage (tricks)? Knight of the Reliquary does both, but that card is AUTO include in Maverick.

[_erbs_]

@erbs: Flickerwisp should always stay at 4x. No question--it's just too useful. Mirran is just swords/grim/bolt fodder in my opinion--a great beater, but at the end of the day, just a dumb beater. Flickerwisp has so many more applications that you're only targeting your own land (or something along those lines) when you've got the game under your thumb. Even if you're backpedaling, flicker is still great for SFM tutoring, taking out attackers/blockers, and the aforementioned tricks.

My point is that Flickerwisp is as aggressive as Crusader, yet as controlling as Mangara. Whereas Mirran waits a turn before he rages all up in your opponent's grill, Flickerwisp immidiately messes with them, and repeatedly swings afterwards, lest they sacrifice their clique/whatever. Also, Wisp looooves holding a sword.

Its true that Flickerwisp has lots of applications and one of the its most important trick is what you said about waiting a full turn..

But what if the tricks of your wisp is not needed or there is no opportunity to use it. A sample scenario. You have 1 rishadan port and 3 plains, and 1 thalia in play, while your opponent has 2 island 1 tundra 1 plains and no creatures.., you have 3 wisps on your hand so im sure you will still cast wisp as you need to aggro your opponent scenarios like this is what im saying or you just need a creature.

Having a 4 count in your deck it will surely be present in almost all games..., and im sure you guys have encounter this that you have no other creature expect for 2-3 wisp.., i doubt if you will wait for the right opportunity to cast.

Both of them dies to the most common removal wisp can't block a 1/1, wisp is weaker against jitte. Both of them are good equip carriers as one has double strike and an almost evasion ability bec of prot green, most common creatures are green anyways. While wisp has flying.

I guess what im trying to say is when you have established a soft lock by port and thalia what you need is a quick beater that is somewhat hard to kill. mirran atleast is good against black and green while wisp can be hit by black removal and can be blocked by any 1/1 vanilla creature.

Mirran is a much better jitte holder

[_erbs_]

I feel Flickerwisp is one of the most flexible creatures in the deck. Its not an offensive powerhouse like Mirran Crusader however. It won't outright win you the game and make you write an article about it. What it does is supplement your strategy subtly. It does everything sort of well, and on occasion, backbreakingly well. Don't think of it as a creature. Think of it as utility/combat trick with a creature thrown in.

I tend to wait to cast it or vial it in for best effect. I don't think of it as a beatdown creature very often unless I have no other creatures on board. This means it can wait in my hand for several turns before I use it.

With Mirran I would cast it immediately and beat face.

Mirran Crusader: (Power option)
Evasion: Pro Green and Black:
Double Strike: Ends the game quickly. Its a beater. It does what it does well, but that's all it does.

Flickerwisp: (Swiss army knife option)
Evasion: Flying
Flicker ability: Bounces equipment, resets counters, gets rid of blockers, gets rid of attackers, saves your creatures, Combos with Mangara and Stoneforge, etc.

Both: Dies to removal. Both are great with equipment, Mirran amazingly so.

Your playstyle will probably determine which card you like better for D and T. Make this comparison: Which would you rather have? A Tarmogoyf (power) or a Qasali Pridemage (tricks)? Knight of the Reliquary does both, but that card is AUTO include in Maverick.

Another thing thats somewhat off for me in wisp is that its very very vial dependent for to be able to play its tricks especially in combat.

I will not deny that wisp literally gave me the win bec i was able to reset a revoker or remove a blocker or attacker or equip. But now that thalia is here i feel what you need is a faster beater.. adding them both would be nice but the curve is toooo heavy making you slow.

Flickerwisp really works well with revokers as this is my common use for it resetting revoker and naming something else.

Thats why im confused if i'll pick wisp or mirran both for me are really good. But like what i've said now that thalia is part of DT soft lock + quick kill is what you need and can standup against the most common creatures as thalia only stops spells creatures aren't affected. Green for me is the most common creature in legacy thus even if your opponent gets to cast a tarmo or kotr you have the option to defend or aggro him down, while if you have wisp.. chances are you'll tend to hold back and wait for your equip as it can't block a bigger creature.

Both of them almost has the same damage 3 vs 4 but mirran can hold off any green creatures and is insane with jitte.

[Wynk]

I A sample scenario. You have 1 rishadan port and 3 plains, and 1 thalia in play, while your opponent has 2 island 1 tundra 1 plains and no creatures.., you have 3 wisps on your hand so im sure you will still cast wisp as you need to aggro your opponent scenarios like this is what im saying or you just need a creature.


Actually, that's a perfect scenario. Play the wisp targeting your land. Now you have a 3/1 flyer, a Thalia, and enough mana to port again in their upkeep.

[_erbs_]

Actually, that's a perfect scenario. Play the wisp targeting your land. Now you have a 3/1 flyer, a Thalia, and enough mana to port again in their upkeep.

Isn't it somewhat redundant already as you have already thalia in play.., and wisp tricks is only applicable 1 turn..

[Wynk]

Its even better really. Before you were preventing them for making optimal use of one of their land. (Thalia). Now you are preventing them from making use of 2 of their land. Port). They went from 4 mana to 2. And you have effectively a 2 mana beater. (Flickerwisp).

[_erbs_]

Its even better really. Before you were preventing them for making optimal use of one of their land. (Thalia). Now you are preventing them from making use of 2 of their land. Port). They went from 4 mana to 2. And you have effectively a 2 mana beater. (Flickerwisp).

Wisp is somewhat a 2cc beater but still needs 3 mana to be able to cast it. Wisp can only stall your opponent for 1 TURN i will not deny sometimes that 1 turn can give you the win.

But if your on the defending side which most likely has a higher chance of happening especially against fast decks, wisp is somewhat crappy during those situations. You already have managara which needs a full turn before you are able to use it as its too slow against some decks aswell.

You can't always rely on your mana disruption as it doesn't come out every game. While DT tends to be really slow as compared to other decks. Thats why i feel mirran can somehow stabilize your board for you to be able to recover.

[Wynk]

You can't always rely on your mana disruption as it doesn't come out every game. While DT tends to be really slow as compared to other decks. Thats why i feel mirran can somehow stabilize your board for you to be able to recover.

No doubt regarding the slowness of this deck vs. something like Zoo. I'm just using the scenario you presented earlier regarding the usefulness of Flickerwisp with 4 lands on the board.

Mirran Crusader has its own benefits as well. In your scenario, its a big wall or a 5 turn clock - attack it and die or block it and die. It puts pressure on the opponent early. Flickerwisp is more reactive.

Mirran Crusader is powerful. its just if I wanted power, I'd play Maverick and use KotR. Maverick was essentially Green and Taxes that slowly faded out the tax portion of the deck for power. Its successful, so that's a valid tactic.

Playstyles differ.

[Barbed Blightning]

Its true that Flickerwisp has lots of applications and one of the its most important trick is what you said about waiting a full turn..

But what if the tricks of your wisp is not needed or there is no opportunity to use it. A sample scenario. You have 1 rishadan port and 3 plains, and 1 thalia in play, while your opponent has 2 island 1 tundra 1 plains and no creatures.., you have 3 wisps on your hand so im sure you will still cast wisp as you need to aggro your opponent scenarios like this is what im saying or you just need a creature.

Having a 4 count in your deck it will surely be present in almost all games..., and im sure you guys have encounter this that you have no other creature expect for 2-3 wisp.., i doubt if you will wait for the right opportunity to cast.

Both of them dies to the most common removal wisp can't block a 1/1, wisp is weaker against jitte. Both of them are good equip carriers as one has double strike and an almost evasion ability bec of prot green, most common creatures are green anyways. While wisp has flying.

I guess what im trying to say is when you have established a soft lock by port and thalia what you need is a quick beater that is somewhat hard to kill. mirran atleast is good against black and green while wisp can be hit by black removal and can be blocked by any 1/1 vanilla creature.

Mirran is a much better jitte holder

If the decide to waste that removal on wisp and not, say, mother of runes or stoneforge, more power to them.

My point is that, while crusader is undoubtedly powerful, it's pointless to add a singleton of him to the deck. it trades the consistency of having a wisp available (which you could need for mangara/tricks, disruption etc) for the possibility of a beater. Do a 2-2 split and you'll find yourself in situations wanting one or the other, but not having them. Since D&T has no draw manipulation, playsets are the only means of ensuring consistency.

I agree with Wynk: if you want to play with powerhouse creatures, play Mav. If you want to play more control, play D&T.

[_erbs_]

Don't you find yourself mostly on the defensive side playing DT...

Actually thats my reason why i tried running 4 mirran over 4 wisps..

[Finn]

You want to be on the defensive with D+T. The hardest matchups are the ones where you have to go aggro before you are ready. Think Landstill, Monoblue, storm, and Elf combo. We are at our best when we can slow the opponent with exactly the kinds of trick Wisp exemplifies.

[rxavage]

I really like the idea of this deck and maybe start building it. What is the learning curve for this deck like? I've only played with tezzaffinitly, dredge(led,less,&manaless), burn, u/r delver, grixis tempo, and reanimator. So, I basically don't have any experience with any of the deck sans sfm.

[mrjumbo03]

@rxavage, I have been playing Death and Taxes for over a year and I would say it's very skill intensive and rewards tight play. Considering the fact that DnT plays with "fair" cards, you try to parlay small incremental advantages throughout the match to win. And because of this, you tend to grind out games, something that your previous decks don't do (Based on your list, you seem to like being the aggressor and/or comboing off). I don't think this deck can be just picked up by anyone prior to a tourney and do well with it as there are plenty of interactions that one can only master through experience making its learning curve really high. It also rewards a player's ability to read an opponent as to what he is playing, as the deck doesn't have library manipulation so you should know what is good and bad for a certain matchup. Furthermore, some of the deck's best cards require knowledge of how your opponent's deck operates to gain optimum value, like using Rishadan Port to cut off the best color, blind naming for Phyrexian Revoker, fetching the correct equipment etc.

I honestly believe that it has a good to great matchup against the top of the field in the current meta based on personal experience, plus the addition of Thalia might just push the deck over the top as it strengthens some of its weaker matchups (Not enough testing on this yet).

I do suggest that you playtest the deck on Cockatrice or proxy some of the cards first as you wouldn't want to be splurging on 4 Karakases and 4 Rishadan Ports then deciding that the deck is not for you. Karakas is usually a 1-of in other decks and the Ports are only used in Lands and Goblins. Hope this helps!

[_erbs_]

Hello,
In the current meta which would you pick of the 2 build, please add reason for picking it over the other aswell

Build 1
Lands [22]
4 wasteland
4 rishadan port
3 karakas
9 plains
2 flagstones of trokair

Spells [11]
1 sofi
1 solas
1 jitte
4 stp
4 aether vial

Creatures [27]
4 mother of runes
3 phyrexian revoker
3 thalia, guardian of thraben
4 stoneforge mystic
2 jotun grunt
1 leonin arbiter
4 serra avenger
4 flickerwisp
2 mangara of corrondor

_______________________________

Build 2
Lands [22]
4 wasteland
3 rishadan port
1 karakas
2 plains
1 forest
4 savannah
4 windswept heath
2 flooded strand
1 maze of ith

Spells [11]
1 sofi
1 solas
1 jitte
4 stp
4 aether vial

Creatures [27]
4 mother of runes
3 noble hiearch
3 thalia, guardian of thraben
4 stoneforge mystic
3 qasali pridemage
4 serra avenger
4 knight of the reliquary
2 mirran crusader

Thanks

[Seems Good]

I would personally prefer build #1 (close to my current list) and if I really wanted to play something like build #2 I would probably just play a dedicated maverick list. Build #2 seems like it's trying to do too much at once.

[lebarion]

Hello,
In the current meta which would you pick of the 2 build, please add reason for picking it over the other aswell


I'd pick the first list. I don't agree with all choices in it, namely Leonin Arbiter and, to a lesser degree, Jotun Grunt.
But the second list has a lot of questionable choices, in my opinion, such as Noble hierarch (not needed with Vials, IMO), Mirran Crusader (Reliquary is a better beater, I'd prefer more utility) and specially the mana base.

[Barbed Blightning]

Hello,
In the current meta which would you pick of the 2 build, please add reason for picking it over the other aswell

Build 1
Lands [22]
4 wasteland
4 rishadan port
3 karakas
9 plains
2 flagstones of trokair

Spells [11]
1 sofi
1 solas
1 jitte
4 stp
4 aether vial

Creatures [27]
4 mother of runes
3 phyrexian revoker
3 thalia, guardian of thraben
4 stoneforge mystic
2 jotun grunt
1 leonin arbiter
4 serra avenger
4 flickerwisp
2 mangara of corrondor

_______________________________

Build 2
Lands [22]
4 wasteland
3 rishadan port
1 karakas
2 plains
1 forest
4 savannah
4 windswept heath
2 flooded strand
1 maze of ith

Spells [11]
1 sofi
1 solas
1 jitte
4 stp
4 aether vial

Creatures [27]
4 mother of runes
3 noble hiearch
3 thalia, guardian of thraben
4 stoneforge mystic
3 qasali pridemage
4 serra avenger
4 knight of the reliquary
2 mirran crusader

Thanks

Build #1 definitely. For one, it is a lot more stable in terms of its manabase (though Flagstones seems an odd choice w/o cataclysm, esp. without a 4th Karakas) and is more pointed in how to play it--obviously a taxation deck.

#2, however, is torn between being Maverick and D&T. Nobles/Birds and Vials shouldn't be in the same deck, imo, since the ramp they provide is often readily available in vial. Overall, if you want to play knight, crusader and mom in the same deck, just make Maverick. There is a reason why it has been doing so well after all.

[timmycolossus]

Hey guys here is my current list. That I am going to run this at a small tournament.


4x mother of runes
4x stoneforge mystic
3x serra avenger
3x phyrexian revoker
3x jotun grunt
3x Thalia
3x mangara of corondor
3x flickerwisp

4x swords
4x aether vial
1x umezawa’s jitte
1x sword of feast and famine
1x sword of light and shadow
1x sword of fire and ice

4x karakas
4x wasteland
4x rishidian port
10x plains


Sb
4x enlightened tutor, 1x relic of progentius, 1x tormods crypt, 1x cop red, 1x ensaring bridge, 1x ethersworn canonist, 1x phyrexian metamorph,

I was curious as to what to put in my sideboard other than cataclysm against UW stoneblade decks. I was thinking 3x elspeth or 3x horoki. I do not know which one is better against them. Also what should I take out when I face these stoneblade decks? Last question, what do we do about wrath of god or crucible of worlds... They are a real pain to deal with.

[Finn]

@Wrath of God: if you know your opponent is playing it, don't overextend into it. That is, do not cast all your creatures from your hand. Losing two to Wrath may be fine. Losing three is backbreaking. Not many decks playing this though. You have a lot of tools to keep opponents from getting the mana, especially with Thalia now.

@Crucible: we have enough basic lands and aggressive pressure to ever keep Waste-lock from getting us. So once Crucible comes out, your Wastelands and Ports are only for mana. You lose one bullet from your gun. I have not had problems with this card except against Landstill. That was a long time ago, and probably the last time I saw Wrath of God, btw. Come to think of it, the Hokori talk stopped about that time. I feel like I am in a time warp.

Also, Cataclysm is crappy against Stoneblade or any other deck that can field a single creature that is better than what we have - which, btw, is most decks. So forget Cataclysm unless you are only facing tribal stuff.

[Barbed Blightning]

Also, Cataclysm is crappy against Stoneblade or any other deck that can field a single creature that is better than what we have - which, btw, is most decks. So forget Cataclysm unless you are only facing tribal stuff.

On the note of Cat: what's your opinion of Cataclysm in D&T? I bought 3 a while back only because I heard it was an option for the deck, but aside from Flagstones, what are some major changes to the MD, esp. now in relation to Thalia? I don't think I'll make Cat D&T, just merely curious.

[nwong]

Actually I've found Cata to be insane against Stoneblade. The only creatures they can field are Snaps, Cliques and Batterskull. If you can keep them off an early Batterskull, Cata can pretty much seal the deal. It's a massive blowout when they tap out for Jace/Elspeth and you Cata.

This was before Thalia though, and there is some disynergy there. Also, Stoneblade is generally a pretty good matchup so Cata isn't really too necessary. It is pretty hard to lose after you resolve it though.

I think the biggest problem with Cata is that it's good in the matchups where you are already favoured (apart from random stuff like Enchantress, Lands etc where it's the nuts).

[timmycolossus]

@ Finn: Thanks. I won't be using catacyslm or horoki then. I will keep one beater on the field to avoid over extending. I was wondering what do you think about including 3x elspeth in my sideboard? Do you think it is necessary? Also what do you think the other spots in the board should based on the weaknesses of this deck?

[Barbed Blightning]

@ Finn: Thanks. I won't be using catacyslm or horoki then. I will keep one beater on the field to avoid over extending. I was wondering what do you think about including 3x elspeth in my sideboard? Do you think it is necessary? Also what do you think the other spots in the board should based on the weaknesses of this deck?

If I may cut in, I believe that more E Tutor targets tailored for your meta are better. For example, I'm running Stony Silence and Aura of Silence because of the presence of Enchantress at my shop. However, when I go to Jupiter this weekend, I will be switching out some of those cards in favor of others good for that meta (which I understand to be Blue and combo--lair of the beast, am I right?)

Elspeth is fantastic, but I'd rather have outs I am more easily equipped to get.

[timmycolossus]

@Barb lightning:

Thank you. So what do I play in those 5 spots. I brought up elspeth because it is great versus control match ups in other decks but I do not know if it is good in this deck. I have never tried it out. So I guess what I am asking is, Are there artifacts or enchantments that are good against decks that play the control match-up better than us and if so are they better than Elspeth?

I expect to see a lot of burn, uw stoneblade, ur delver, a little combo (ANT, TES). I need more testing with thalia (thorn with legs) to see how the combo match-up is now. This will determine how much hate I put in the board for combo. Here is my current list
4x mother of runes
4x stoneforge mystic
3x serra avenger
3x phyrexian revoker
3x jotun grunt
3x Thalia
3x mangara of corondor
3x flickerwisp

4x swords
4x aether vial
1x umezawa’s jitte
1x sword of feast and famine
1x sword of light and shadow
1x sword of fire and ice

4x karakas
4x wasteland
3x rishidian port
11x plains


Sb
4x enlightened tutor, 1x relic of progentius, 1x tormods crypt, 1x cop red, 1x ensaring bridge, 1x ethersworn canonist, 1x phyrexian metamorph, (5 flex spots TBA)

[Barbed Blightning]

In your flex slots, you can put the following:

Absolute Law
Stony Silence
Aura of Silence
Another Canonist
Grafdigger's Cage
Chalice of the Void
Warmth
Thorn of Amethyst

Or something I'm testing now: Aegis of Honor. http://magiccards.info/od/en/1.html

The way i see it, drop this on burn t1/2/3 and say gg. It costs less than CoP: Red, and reflects the damage back onto them, making less work for your dudes.

I actually like the -1 Rishadan port. Do you have a reason for it, or is it budgeting? Regardless, I've been thinking about cutting down the three myself--they're great waste bait, and they can be back-breaking, but I'd rather have the extra white source.


As a more general question: which is preferred, Feast and Famine or Light and Shadow?

[lebarion]

In your flex slots, you can put the following:

Absolute Law
Stony Silence
Aura of Silence
Another Canonist
Grafdigger's Cage
Chalice of the Void
Warmth
Thorn of Amethyst

Or something I'm testing now: Aegis of Honor. http://magiccards.info/od/en/1.html

The way i see it, drop this on burn t1/2/3 and say gg. It costs less than CoP: Red, and reflects the damage back onto them, making less work for your dudes.


I don't think Stony Silence is a good option to our deck. It hurts us way too much, deactivating our vials and equipment. I prefer looking for other options agaist decks that rely on artifacts, such as Aura of Silence.
Against Burn and UR Delver, I like Energy Storm, as it also prevents our dudes from being burnt. But the upkeep may be hard to pay for.


I actually like the -1 Rishadan port. Do you have a reason for it, or is it budgeting? Regardless, I've been thinking about cutting down the three myself--they're great waste bait, and they can be back-breaking, but I'd rather have the extra white source.

I agree that 8 colorless sources sometimes hurts our manabase, but I wouldn't cut Ports. Instead, I'm using 23 lands, with 2 Horizon Canopies, and I'm never sad seeing them.



As a more general question: which is preferred, Feast and Famine or Light and Shadow?

I prefer Light and Shadow because I think it is better against control. But all swords have their own merits, I've used even Body and Mind a while ago and it was very good.

[timmycolossus]

I have the ports. I just cut one because through playtesting it is important I felt to have 11 white sources. I used to run a full set of wasteland and port when I ran 23 lands and a different build of this deck, but since I added thalia and cut (revoker, flicker, serra avenger) I felt that the last land was not needed. Sword of Light and Shadow for sure. Especially on a flying avenger is amazing (no burning it out, no dismember, no swords or path, vindicate, pulse ...).

@barbed: I will try the manabase with canopy and a full set of port and waste. I personally like feast and famine so that is why I play it.

Funny note by the way. Cage stops NO and GSZ.

Has anyone tested this card. If so, does it have a home in D&T sb?

[Barbed Blightning]

Funny note by the way. Cage stops NO and GSZ.

Has anyone tested this card. If so, does it have a home in D&T sb?

there was a lot of celebratory speculation when Cage got spoiled. Guess you're a bit late to the party. :P

That is, very much yes, Grafdigger's Cage is great for our SB. I would only caution that it never truly stops Dredge/Reanimator. Remember that Crypt/Relic/Spellbomb are solutions, whereas Cage merely buys us time.

[Mastikor]

Here's my slightly different approach to the deck. You are welcome to share your ideas.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23045-Thorns-amp-Taxes

[Barbed Blightning]

Here's my slightly different approach to the deck. You are welcome to share your ideas.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23045-Thorns-amp-Taxes

I see the appeal, but at the end of the day, why not play regular DnT? It already has more disruption and hate for more matchups (whereas Zoo and Mav will give you a very hard time with your deck).

As far as the SB goes, why not a e tutor suite? E tutor's great at virtually multiplying your hate cards, while simultaneously helping you to search for cards like vial and revoker.

also, @timmy: I'd run another canonist, absolute law, grafdigger's cage, oblivion ring and maybe warmth. keep the metamorph for batterskulls.

[_erbs_]

Hello,
Just want to share that i went with my build 2 in a 107-player tourny i played last week. I didn't made it to the top 8 but i finished 14th with a 5-2 record out of 107 players.

The deck performed on what its supposed to do.
i won against most meta deck but i lost to steel city deck and dredge which i really decided not to board against. that cost me if i won my dredge game i would had a chance in making it to the top 8.

the decks i beat was
- 2 uw blade with giest, gw mav, bg loam pox and mono black aggro-control.

i just need to retweak my sb against dredge.

the sb i used was
3 parallax wave
3 flickerwisp
1 pte
1 glowrider
2 jotun grunt
1 bojuka bog
2 gaddok teeg
2 beast within

[Fry]

My current list is :

Main Board:
4x Flickerwisp
3x Leonin Arbiter
3x Mangara of Corondor
3x Mirran Crusader
4x Mother of Runes
2x Oblivion Ring
3x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x AEther Vial
1x Batterskull
2x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Sword of Feast and Famine
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Umezawa's Jitte
4x Karakas
4x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland
9x Plains

Side Board:
3x Ethersworn Cannonist
3x Jotun Grunt
1x Oblivion Ring
3x Runed Halo
2x Wing Shards
1x Manriki-Gusari
2x Phyrexian Revoker

A little while a go I took out the serra avangers for the Mirran Crusaders and a fourth flickerwisp partly because it gives me more reason to take vial to three counters and also because chances are you aren't going to be getting the vial turn one to get the avenger turn three anyways.
Also the fourth Flickerwisps allows more tricks with the Oblivion Ring shananegains and can flicker the Mangara after targeting something to exile.
I love the Main board Leonin Arbiters. Period. They only hurt my 3 stoneforges and they hurt all the fetches and Natural Orders and Green Sun's Zeniths all day long. I especially love vialing in an Arbiter in response to a fetch, can't get too much better than that.
I chose to play the Feast and Famine over Light and Shadow because the double activation of the discard and untapping of land can be devastating while on crusader with an active mystic in play. It allows the utilization of the mana during your main phase, then porting/wasting lands on the opponents turn.

If anyone disagrees with my choices feel free to CONSTRUCTIVELY criticize them, but give reasons as to why you would choose otherwise, and if asked why I play a certain number of a card or not at all, I will do what I can to explain on my next visit to the interwebbing world (currently at a local restaurant for the internet).

[timmycolossus]

@ Fry: If I may ask why only two revokers. Also how does the list play against rug maverick and uw stoneblade? Also are you going to jupiter on march 3rd?

[Fry]

I went to two revokers main so I could fit the 3rd Thalia in the main. I would rather go to 2 revoker than to 3 flickerwisps, I normally would rather have my vials up to three over two because of the mangara and now the crusaders with flickerwisp tricks and o-rings... fun times ^_^ the remaining two revokers are in the side though... Actually been thinking about putting in the fourth arbiter main because it messes with people so much.

I shall be there on the Third, most likely playing this deck since I plan on using it at the GP in Indianapolis the following weekend. Just ordered the three foil Thalia's I needed so now the only non-foils in the deck will be the Karakas. ^_^

[Oxmo39]

I like the Arbiter approach in your list and i will be interested to see your results at Jupiter :wink:

However, going down to 21 lands seems very low.
With the print of Thalia, i tried to go down to 22 to make space, but i was not happy with this change.
So i really wonder how does it work out for you in your testings ? Did you have any issues with the mana base ?
Not to mention you play O-Ring : that looks very bad with Thalia out. I would say the same for Batterskull since you went down to 3 Stoneforge mystics...

I've played a lot with the Arbiter MD, despite the dissynergy with mystics. You always want the arbiter to be out faster than mystic. Paying the 2 extra manas is a pain with 23 lands, i can't imagine how hard it should be with 21...

[Barbed Blightning]

@Fry: why don't you run the E-Tutor SB? it's always worked well for me.

Also, same concern as Oxmo: why play batterskull/o ring with only 3 sfm, 9 plains and 3 thalia?

[klaus]

With Thalia, I think we should reconsider Glowrider. The combination of taxing effects can be extremely powerful imo.
Here's a sample list of the top of my head:

3 Thalia
3 Glowrider
3 Mystic
3 Mangara
3 Flickerwisp
1 Grunt
4 Mother
3 Arbiter
2 Revoker
2 Relicwardner

3 Equipment
4 STP
4 Vial

22 Land

Let me know, what you think!

[AggroSteve]

actually i think you may have a point

either way my oblivion rings will be replaced with thalia as soon as i get a few of them, and really i like the idea of glowrider + thalia a lot, i might even try it, since the gameplan of most midrange and controll-decks is going to be devestated by it, even combo suffers a lot

the only creature i will never use in my list is arbiter, i really dislike him, and i do not even know why :confused:

either way i would try the following configuration first

4 thalia (even if its a legend, simply because she probably will get countered if the opponent knows the deck)
2-3 glowrider, to supplement thalia, and not more as thalia is way better

just have to check where my glowriders are^^

[colo]

I don't want to cross-post, so I'm just linking to my MTGSal-Posting about my recent D&T experiences here: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=8000868&postcount=1330

I think the deck is as well-positioned in the metagame as ever. Good times. :)

[klaus]

I've picked up D&T not too long ago but have been testing extensively for the last two weeks. Below is the list that I ended up with for the time being. Crits = welcome.

4 AEther Vial
3 Flickerwisp -------------- %4: I hardly ever want to see him without an active Vial
1 Glowrider ------------------- I started out with 3 but it kind of messed up my curve. Still dig her
2 Jotun Grunt --------------------------- Obviously, this is a meta choice
1 Leonin Relic-Warder ----------------------------- Due to MoR Warder is MD material for sure imo. I like those extra copies in the board too
3 Mangara of Corondor ------------------------------------- playset: yes or no?
4 Mother of Runes
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Serra Avenger --------------------------------------------- upped her count step by step. Could be a three of just as well imo
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Stoneforge Mystic ------------------------------------------------- 4 felt clunky, like some people have stated before.
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Wasteland
2 Horizon Canopy ------------------------------------------- have been happy with them - I wonder why so few people run them..
9 Plains
3 Rishadan Port
4 Karakas

SB:
1 Glowrider
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Grafdigger's Cage -----------------------has been discussed before - what's the current opinion on Cage?
3 Harm's Way -------------------------------------- Still testing that guy
2 Leonin Relic-Warder
3 Surgical Extraction

What I didn't include:
Oblivion Ring: sucks with Thalia
Arbiter: the dissynergy with SFM could almost be ignored, but more often than not she didn't do enough for me. There doesn't seem to be a common consensus on her either. I might test her again though.
Mirran Crusader: another debatable choice. I guess she would be replacing in Jotun Grunt despite a different function. I like to keep the curve rather low though.

EDIT:
You're holding a hand consisting of 1 land, 1 Vial, 3 creatures, 1 equipment, 1 STP against an unknown deck.
Q1: Will you keep it on the draw?
Q2: Will you keep it on the play?

[Barbed Blightning]

You're holding a hand consisting of 1 land, 1 Vial, 3 creatures, 1 equipment, 1 STP against an unknown deck.
Q1: Will you keep it on the draw?
Q2: Will you keep it on the play?

I learned a while ago to never keep one-land hands, even with a plains. Have at least 2, always.

That said, while this list is interesting, I really think Flickerwisp should be at x4. Maybe he's only been used to untap a plains for a game or two--you can still bluff holding a STP in hand. Just last night I used him to pop out a batterskull-equipped 6/6 scavenging ooze and it won me the game. The Wisp does work.

[lavafrogg]

Is vial @ 3 the only reason flickerwisp is still in this deck? With the printing of better and better cards I feel that the fact that she flies and occasionally does something cool might not be worth the 3-4 spots in the deck. All of the original combat tricks and interactions have left the deck except for this last one, what make the card so keepable?

The double-striking crusader could easily fill the spot now that SFM has made equipment a auto include.

[from Cairo]

@Klaus' List

I like it. I agree Horizon Canopy is a house, if one's running 22-24 land I would definitely test 2 Canopy and also the miser's Ancient Tomb that Caleb Durward suggested during MM-Era, which has great synergy with SFM/Port activations and obviously Equipment casting/equip costs.

Is Harm's Way better than bringing in somethintg bomby like Elspeth or Timely Reinforcements against agro. I mean it's definitely cheaper, but it strikes me as hard to get much value out of - it rarely seems like it will be a 2 for 1, though I suppose it will frequently be a 2 for 2. Is it better than Oust or Condemn that pretty much always 1 for 1 in terms of board presence?

[Koby]

Has anyone tested Leyline of Sanctity vs Burn / Combo recently?

What results has it proven?

[Barbed Blightning]

Crusader is valueless against a 10/10 Scaevenging ooze, esp. with a L&S on the ooze or mom on their side. Those not withstanding, he becomes a wall for Ooze, Goyf and Knight. Jitte/Bolt/Swords/Jace get rid of Crusader easily, and maze of ith turns him into garbage as well.

Everyone forgets that, so long as Flickerwisp resovles, his ability goes on the stack. Barring a stifle, here's what he can do, as only a few examples:

Reset a Planeswalker, stopping them from going off on their ultimate
Kill a Germ token on a Batterskull
Pop out Thalia/Mangara/Grunt/anything to save them from removal/themselves.
Pop out Thalia to let us cast stuff at a normal price
Clear a jitte of counters, or provoke its user into using them at an inopportune time.
Pop out equipment so that our denial can prevent them from being equipped next turn.
Give us additional Stoneforge tutors
Untap a land--karakas, wasteland and port being the best, but also allowing a plains to be used to swords on their turn
Reset your revoker to something relevant
Reset an opponent's vial
Remove and opponent's land for a turn, useful on a maze
Save a permanent from board wipes/vindicates, esp. non-Mom targets.
Remove annoying creatures like mindcensor/arbiter so you can make a power play

Plus the uses described in the Primer, as well as plenty more I'm probably unaware of/can't think of to list right now. I'm fed up with complaints about this card, and REALLY sick of hearing this garble about Crusader. He's a beater, but that's all he is: a beater. Flickerwisp does so much more, has a more useful evasion (flying vs. pro G/B) and in the world of legacy as it currently stands--where creatures without huge toughness or are Mother of Runes die almost instantly or a few turns later--Flickerwisp is ten times more useful than Crusader.

D&T has never been a beatdown deck in my opinion. It's a Control/Disruption deck that, while using beaters like Avenger to win, truly wins off creatures with excellent abilities--like flickerwisp.

[nwong]

If you find yourself wanting Mirran Crusaders, I suggest switching to Maverick. They beat down better. Even then, most of them still don't run Crusader.

[Fry]

the reason why I don't have the Enlightened Tutor sideboard is because I just recently got the foils one I would need for it.

I've been playing DT for over a year now and rarely have troubles with the 21 land. Granted it will bite you once in a while, but that happens in any deck, bad draws will out.

I still think that the oblivion rings(even if they cost 4 mana with thalia in play) are worth the 2 mainboard slots. I particularly love flickering it and having something permanantly removed.

I've thought about adding a fourth arbiter in the main deck more than just a few times, but I haven't decided what I would cut for it, possibly one of the four flickerwisps. Vialing in an arbiter in response to a fetch is one of my favorite plays. What beats it when your opponent pays a life and sacs a land... and can't continue to fetch?

I may end up taking out the two oblivion rings for 2 glowriders, need to make up my mind on that one still.

[Curby]

Has anyone tested Leyline of Sanctity vs Burn / Combo recently?

What results has it proven?

Yost seems pretty unconcerned about facing it, between PoP and Flame Rift and creatures. The bigger problem for us is not effectiveness but slots. If you want to land it for free, you need 4. But then you could run CoP or another hoser in a single slot, and have room for three more Tutor targets.

[Koby]

Yost seems pretty unconcerned about facing it, between PoP and Flame Rift and creatures. The bigger problem for us is not effectiveness but slots. If you want to land it for free, you need 4. But then you could run CoP or another hoser in a single slot, and have room for three more Tutor targets.

This is mostly true, but COP:red isn't good vs Combo. Leyline does address Combo in a way that the other anti-red don't. I think the goal isn't so much to shut down all the spells, but the quick Bolts that make the PoPs and Flame Rifts dangerous. Both in this deck and in Maverick, dealing with their creatures is relatively easy. Dealing with their Bolts isn't, however.

[klaus]

the reason why I don't have the Enlightened Tutor sideboard is because I just recently got the foils one I would need for it.

I've been playing DT for over a year now and rarely have troubles with the 21 land. Granted it will bite you once in a while, but that happens in any deck, bad draws will out.

I still think that the oblivion rings(even if they cost 4 mana with thalia in play) are worth the 2 mainboard slots. I particularly love flickering it and having something permanantly removed.

I've thought about adding a fourth arbiter in the main deck more than just a few times, but I haven't decided what I would cut for it, possibly one of the four flickerwisps. Vialing in an arbiter in response to a fetch is one of my favorite plays. What beats it when your opponent pays a life and sacs a land... and can't continue to fetch?

I may end up taking out the two oblivion rings for 2 glowriders, need to make up my mind on that one still.

Glowriders haven't proven themselves as MD material, even though I started out with nice results.
Against anything non-Control, non-Combo they simply don't do much.
It boils down to being a meta card.

I see them in some SBs and have been running 2 in the board myself. Eventually I came to replace 1 with Thalia #4 instead. Something that I haven't seen here yet.
I strongly suggest this choice though - here's why:
Against combo you just need to cast that guy on turn two - Glowrider, at CMC 3, will come down a turn late more often than not.

Same for the Control MU: Thalia will draw removal like no other creature in our 75 - having that 4th copy certainly gives us an edge.
---

Arbiter #4 is something I have been considering too. It compares nicely to Stifle, regarding its early game power and late-game weakness. You want that card in your starting 7, since later on it'll merely be a Grizzly Bear. That's the exact same reasoning why nobody would ever consider going below 4 Stifles. Plus, even though that's an obvious aspect, their effect adds up the more you have on the board. 4 might be the correct number after all..

Here's my current list for reference:

4 AEther Vial
4 Flickerwisp
3 Mangara of Corondor
4 Mother of Runes
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Serra Avenger
3 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic

1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Swords to Plowshares
(-38-)

4 Wasteland
2 Horizon Canopy
9 Plains
3 Rishadan Port
4 Karakas
(-22-)

SB:
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 meta'd E.T. target
1 Thalia
1 Glowrider
2 Leonin Relic-Warder
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Creature Hate - to be announced...

[Curby]

This is mostly true, but COP:red isn't good vs Combo. Leyline does address Combo in a way that the other anti-red don't. I think the goal isn't so much to shut down all the spells, but the quick Bolts that make the PoPs and Flame Rifts dangerous. Both in this deck and in Maverick, dealing with their creatures is relatively easy. Dealing with their Bolts isn't, however.

I was writing a more detailed post, but to summarize, all competitive combo decks have at least two of (1) enchantment destruction (2) bounce and (3) nontargeting kill. The solution to combo decks is disrupting the ramp and the engine (a'la Thalia, Revoker, etc.) and not the kill card. That said though, an active Leyline does require them to produce an answer while/before comboing off, which will at least make them work harder for their win.

Regardless, the main concern I had with Leyline wasn't really the usefulness but rather the slots taken. Is it so much better for you than the alternatives that you're willing to spend three extra slots on it? Is this a metagame consideration (i.e. you're playing with tons of combo and Burn)?

My meta features both combo and Burn. I've been hoping to rely on Thalia to swing the matchups in our favor, but am interested in hearing other opinions as well.

[Koby]

I was writing a more detailed post, but to summarize, all competitive combo decks have at least two of (1) enchantment destruction (2) bounce and (3) nontargeting kill. The solution to combo decks is disrupting the ramp and the engine (a'la Thalia, Revoker, etc.) and not the kill card. That said though, an active Leyline does require them to produce an answer while/before comboing off, which will at least make them work harder for their win.

Regardless, the main concern I had with Leyline wasn't really the usefulness but rather the slots taken. Is it so much better for you than the alternatives that you're willing to spend three extra slots on it? Is this a metagame consideration (i.e. you're playing with tons of combo and Burn)?

My meta features both combo and Burn. I've been hoping to rely on Thalia to swing the matchups in our favor, but am interested in hearing other opinions as well.

That's the conclusion I came too as well (Leyline not worth the slots). Yes, I agree that active disruption (Thorns, Thalia, even Silence/Orim's Chant) are much better in general. Their bounce is going to be the problem, and it presents a roadblock that will force them to find an answer before making the kill.

In the Maverick deck, the slots are truly at a premium and generally don't run Thalia in the maindeck like D&T can afford to. Between the 3-4 slots that need to address burn and combo, I currently use:

2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg

If I replace it with Leylines on a 1:1 basis, I upgrade my hate for Burn, but decreases my hate for Storm. I think with any deck using simple but narrow disruption (Leyline in this instance). In the past I've used Thorn of Amethyst because it was tutorable. It did work quite well against combo decks as well as Reanimator, and even Burn. I took it out however, since I often found myself just tutoring for Canonist instead.

[Curby]

Report: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23298-Death-and-Taxes-Tops-Undeveloped-Meta

Please give me feedback on sideboarding choices, e.g. what should have been removed instead of what I actually removed.

[workingdude]

What are some suggestions for sideboards for a slightly more aggro-meta? I'm looking to get rid of the Leylines and one will most likely be CoP:Red.

The Leylines were there originally to help against discard/combo.

Right now I have:
Batterskull
Ensnaring Bridge
Relic of Progenitus
Tormod's Crypt
2 Ethersworn Canonist
Phyrexian Metamorph
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben (3 in main)
Aura of Silence
3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Enlightened Tutor

How does everyone deal with discard?

[Barbed Blightning]

What are some suggestions for sideboards for a slightly more aggro-meta? I'm looking to get rid of the Leylines and one will most likely be CoP:Red.

The Leylines were there originally to help against discard/combo.

Right now I have:
Batterskull
Ensnaring Bridge
Relic of Progenitus
Tormod's Crypt
2 Ethersworn Canonist
Phyrexian Metamorph
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben (3 in main)
Aura of Silence
3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Enlightened Tutor

How does everyone deal with discard?

Discard is a bitch, but we can deal with it. Try to make a Sword of Light & Shadow stick at any cost and you basically win. Leyline's crap outside of an opening hand, run True Believer or Library of Leng if it's a real issue. Dealing with discard is more about knowing your opponent's deck better: if it's Nic Fit, swords the Explorer to avoid Therapy hurting you, or eat it up with a grunt. More Rock builds will be Thoughtseizing or Hymning Turn one, so without force of will, there's no point in trying to find a solution.

Regardless, discard's a dead-end strategy, like mana denial. Eventually they have to drop threats, and so long as you keep good hands and play shrewdly, you can get through it.

CoP: Red is definitely a great choice for the SB, and CoP: Green is something i've been tinkering with. Absolute Law is a consideration, but only reroutes bolts to your face. I'm currently testing Cataclysm with 3 MD flagstones, and I gotta say: it's pretty damn good. Won me games on Friday night, love how it kills planeswalkers. And think about it: many decks in Legacy like to overextend right now. Maverick, Nic Fit, RUG and others focus on churning out threats at a high speed. Cat demolishes them, and if we keep an STP backup in hand/Mangara-vial, we're golden.

I need some more testing with it before the GP this weekend, but I'm excited to take D&T to the Big Game!

[colo]

If discard is so much of a problem for you, you might wanna try running Cursed Scroll. I've been considering running that card in my SB for quite some time now - seems like a very strong choice against lists that pack insane amounts of removal, and is quite bonkers whenever you end up in topdeck mode.

[lebarion]

Did someone here seriously test Elbrus, the Binding Blade?
I just realized that the Withengar Unbound is a legend, and so can be protected by Karakas if needed. Also, we have plenty of fliers to make Elbrus connect, and a 13/13 with fly and trample is not something that can be ignored.
My first thought is to put it in place of SoFI.

[colo]

You do realize that whenever you "protect" your 13/13 legend by means of Karakas, you end up with a shitty equipment for 7 colorless in hand, right?

Totally not worth it in my opinion.

[lebarion]

You do realize that whenever you "protect" your 13/13 legend by means of Karakas, you end up with a shitty equipment for 7 colorless in hand, right?


I do. But unless your opponent also removed your Stoneforge Mystic, you still can cheat it into play again paying 1W. And equip it again to your flyer, that is propably still alive, too.
Although it seems bad, and I agree with you on that, it may be much less bad than at first sight. That's why I've asked for someone that have seriously tested it.

[Curby]

I'll argue against it on philosophical grounds. D&T isn't Sneak and Show. The point isn't to perform some big play and ride it to victory, but rather to play the game of attrition and grind them into the dirt. For this, multifaceted cards that offer both offense and defense, such as Sword of Fire and Ice and Umezawa's Jitte are much more effective.

Note that most D&T lists don't even run Batterskull. Other decks run it because they don't have creatures. We have plenty of creatures to hand a sword to.

Of course, theory and reality are different things, but Elbrus doesn't follow thematically, so I'll leave it to you to show positive testing results. =)

[Koby]

I won't fault anyone packing Batterskull in their D&T lists. It performs a solid role player with SFM, for which this deck is geared to use properly. Many Maverick (very much analogous to this archetype) decks use Batterskull in the same manner.

I do agree that the mythic Equipment is too flash/Danger of Cool Things without providing immediate advantage much like the Swords, Jitte, or Batterskull. A simple test should determine whether the card is includeable: can it be a threat on its very own?

[Barbed Blightning]

My first thought is to put it in place of SoFI.

Never. Sofi's thrice as useful as Elbrus--it buffs so your dude can block something nasty, protects from jace/burn/clique/et. al., and has the best trigger of any Sword--shock and draw.

Elbrus falls into the "Too Cool to be Good" category for me, too--like Mirran Crusader. A great idea in theory, but in practical terms, simply not as useful as what we have currently. Swords and Jitte are castable/equipable on the same turn. Elbrus and Batterskull offer no such promise.

I use batterskull in my SB for Maverick, but only because it gives Thrun +4/+4 Viglance and Lifelink. Honestly, if a cheaper sword came along with those abilities but no germ token and costed less to cast/equip, I'd use it.

[lebarion]

Never. Sofi's thrice as useful as Elbrus--it buffs so your dude can block something nasty, protects from jace/burn/clique/et. al., and has the best trigger of any Sword--shock and draw.

Elbrus falls into the "Too Cool to be Good" category for me, too--like Mirran Crusader. A great idea in theory, but in practical terms, simply not as useful as what we have currently. Swords and Jitte are castable/equipable on the same turn. Elbrus and Batterskull offer no such promise.

I use batterskull in my SB for Maverick, but only because it gives Thrun +4/+4 Viglance and Lifelink. Honestly, if a cheaper sword came along with those abilities but no germ token and costed less to cast/equip, I'd use it.

Thanks for all opinions. I believe you are all right, but will test it anyway (I'm a believer :wink:). If I conclude anything different from what is stated here, I'll let you guys know.

[Barbed Blightning]

Went 6-3 at the Indy GP today. I'll post a report tomorrow when I'm not so destroyed.

[lebarion]

Went 6-3 at the Indy GP today. I'll post a report tomorrow when I'm not so destroyed.

That's not a bad result at all, congratulations!
Can't wait to see the report.

[Barbed Blightning]

So, here's my GP report, in full verbosity. Decklist here: http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=988455

Match 1: Burn, 0-2
Turn 1 lava spike sums up the match pretty quickly, with Keldon marauder backup on the next turn. Mom's painfully absent, and Thalia eats a bolt. I end up dying to a flame javelin. Game 2 I bring in Canonists and CoP: Red with tutors, removing Mangara/Flickerwisp package. I kept a hand with mom, thalia and canonist, but each is burned in quick succession by searing blazes and chain lightnings, while I keep taking damage to the head. Avenger with Light and Shadow hits too late and keldon/rift bolt win the match for him. This match I played pretty dumb, but it was about 10 am, and I had only gotten about 3 hrs of sleep before the 8 am registration.

Match 2: Reanimator, 2-0
Felt a lot happier when I saw turn 1 careful study to toss Norn and Jin into the yard. I play a karakas and it's basically GG: Jotun grunt goes the distance for me. Game 2 I take out revokers and jitte for yard hate—wheel, crypt and tutors. I port and waste him out until a wheel sticks, and it's good game with a flickerwisp-equipped sofi. He had a kind of janky build, though: watery graves and overgrown tombs for nature's claim.

Match 3: Bant Maverick 1-2
First Mav matchup of the day, and my friend has already played two (and beat them with ease, he plays TES). Game 1 is kind of a blowout: 9/9 Terravore, 8/8 KotR, and Trafty kill me quickly. Game 2 I bring in o ring and cataclysms, but see neither. I keep him locked down with a grunt beating him with a Light/Shadow. Game 3 is pretty even, until he plays terravore. This entire matchup I've been praying for a swords, but never see it. I keep the Terra off me completely for a few rounds with mom/revoker, but then he plays the weirdest card yet: sword of body and mind. He equips and swings, and mills me…. Putting 7 lands into my yard. Suddenly, his terravore's a 14/14 pro GB. All I want is a swords, but I draw my second Karakas.

Important note: There are 9 rounds at the GP. To make day two, you have to win at least 7 of those rounds. At this point, I've used up all my wins, so I have to win every game following.

Match 4: Affinity, 2-0
Total throwback to my first legacy deck, so know every weak spot. Revoker the plating, He's playing a build with Glimpse of nature, and I'm momentarily concerned… but he punts it worse that charlie brown. Jitte/Avenger wins it. Game 2 I bring in stony silence(so happy that I packed it) and tutors; I take out grunts. Game two he's much better, with turn one thopter/memnite/pest/opal/drum. I lead off with a Mom and it's not looking too hot, until I swords the pest. I have to use a port oin the inkmoth nexus (which poisons me for 4) and I'm dying for a wasteland. Thalia/Jitte happens, and he enters scoop phase a few turns later.

Match 5: Storm Combo, 0-2
This matchup made me want to quit Legacy altogether. I made some seriously dumb moves game 1, and game 2 he stormed before thalia could hit. Anyway, game one he's basically durdling around, playing gemstone and brass. Turn one is mom, and turn two is win I lost the game: I play revoker, and for some reason thought I should name Putrid Imp. Because obviously Dredge is a problem deck for DnT, and OBVIOUSLY they'd wait till turn 3 to do anything.
The worst part of it is that I knew the second I played revoker that he had LEDs, and that he was going to play it. When he drops a blue fetch and 2 LEDs the next turn, I'm pissed. It would have been okay, since I could have used the flickerwisp to reset revoker. But he ill-gotten gains loops into tendrils at 10. As I said, game 2 he won first turn. He takes about ten minutes to figure it out, I guess he figured I'd be bringing in chants or silence.

I took a twenty minute break between this round and the next (God knows I have it after playing against storm) and fight the urge to just sell my legacy staples to one of the vendors. After a pep talk with a friend, I calm down and decide that, if I'm not going to make day two, I might as well do what I enjoy most with DnT: Punishing the hell out of other Legacy decks.

Match 6: LED Dredge, 2-1
The X-3 tier is definitely a lot more relaxed, as everyone knoiws that they're just playing for fun. Turn one I drop a mother of runes, and my opponent goes off: faithless looting/LED loops, until he eventually returns Sun titan and flame-kin zealot with 3 zombie tokens. Impressive, and I'm already getting the sensation that this is going to be a hard match. Turns out, he had the dream hand and, siding out revokers an a mangara for wheel, crypt and tutors. Game 2 I drop a wheel on his head, port him out and Grunt does the rest, eating all that he dredged turn one. He hardcasts narcs, I swords one and slay the other, winning by flickerwisp/jitte. Game 3, the song is similar: Grunt hits turn two, and LED dredge just gives him a damn FEAST. The dumb ape just eats up his bridges, dread targets and dredgers. I get to the highest culmitive count I ever have with him, 4, and keep pounding the dredge guy. I draw into wheel turn 3, slap it down and basically wait. I get him to 3, and he finally nature's claim's the wheel and dredges as fast as he can… but not fast enough. I kill him with an EOT-vialed Avenger.

Match 7: Monoblack Mystery Meat, 2-0
Second-favorite matchup of the day. Game one it looks like the Gate, but his thoughtseizes are wasted. I Magara lock him for the first time today, disposing of urborg after urborg. Game two I side in nothing—whatever this deck is, it's child's play for me. Game 2 he's sided a lot in, and thoughtseizes a revoker. Turn 2 he dark rits into leyine of the void. I'm just plain confused, and let grunt gnaw on his yard for a few turns. 2 moms mean I'm swinging for 5 for 3 turns. His yard empties and grunt goes poof. I keep a vial at 2, and enter Mom beatdown mode, pinging for 1 for 4 more turns. He innocent bloods me, so I vial in a grunt. I then have mom throw some hot tea in his face.
Turns out this was a Leyline/Helm of Obedience-Hexmage/Depths combo deck. I didn't realize we were playing EDH at the Grand Prix now.

Match 8: UR Delver 2-1
Turn one is a delver and I'm feeling a sinking sensation again. Game one is a lot of damage done in units of 3, and snap-chain gets me. I side out revokers in favor of cop: red and some tutors. Grunt keeps snap targets out of reach and delvers are plowed immediately. He almost kills me with a price of progress, but out of sheer dumb luck I've kept my waste untapped, and dispose of my rishadan port. Thalia-Jitte wins it. Game 3 he's countering a lot of my threats, but I eventually keep serra avenger on the field. When sofi hits after he wasted a counter on solas a turn earlier, he's audibly crestfallen. Equip and win.
Note: this match would have gone smoother if I didn't have flagstones. I was trying to avoid POP, but flagstones became a liability. I also will be posting my MU analysis of this deck soon.

Match 9: Bant Mav 1-0-1
So we meet again! No terravores here, but by god what an awesome match. He pounds me to 9 with stoneforge, but I used jitte to stay in the game. He kills my jitte with his, I play light/shadow, toss it onto a revoker naming knight, swing and get back another revoker to name his Jace that he uses to bounce my moms. There is only one note I wrote for this: GRRRIIINNNNDDDDDD. I get sofi on my knight-revoker, and the 6 damage a turn finally kills him (batterskull'd knight has been gaining him 12+life a turn.) 3 minutes are left in the round, and we go to game two; I bring in cataclysms and o ring in favor of thalia. I mull to three, pile shuffling, struggling to get a keepable hand—I honestly wasn't trying to slow-play, but I'm sure he disagrees. Turns are called on his second turn, and I stave him off long enough to make it to time. Favorite matchup of the day, a fantastic grind.

So, there you have it: 6-3, DnT making the scene. Some wisdom I picked up for other pilots:
-Stoneforge is the best creature in legacy. I'm not going below 4 ever again.
-Thalia's moot against mav and bant. They have too much ramp, and they'll just play bigger dudes.
-Flagstones/Cataclysm is no longer good. If legacy somehow slows down as a format, or if we get some insane ramp somehow, maybe then it can see a return. Otherwise it's dead. Don't know if that's a Cap'n Obvious remark.
-What do we use Phyrexian metamorph for? It sat in my side the entire day. I want to figure out why we have it cluttering up a spot.
-Phyrexian Revoker is the weakest card in our main. That much I've learned—he's not bad, but compared to the rest of the deck he's got the least benefit for us. I'm putting 2 in my side so I can have 4 stoneforge and 2 main.

Anyway, hope that's not too tl;dr. Catch y'all later.

[Fry]

Unfortunately since I despise writing I didn't keep note of how I did at GP Indy, but here's what I remember to the best of my ability, don't remember a whole lot of day 1 since I kept no notes and with playing nine rounds, it gets rather tiresome, especially when running on about 4 hours of sleep...
I did the first grinder on Friday with my D&T's list (Will share at bottom of post) and made it to the finals where I lose to Charbelcher. He won the die roll and got 14 gobs turn one, and game to he had to top deck the belcher to win the game which he did, but then game three he would have gone first again and would likely won that game, so I am not disappointed with my finish of second with 24 packs...
I had no byes for the Grand Prix itself, mainly because I don't have much time to play in a lot of events and STD isn't my favorite format and just made a deck for it a month ago... I end up having to play round one... by the end of round 5 my record was 3-1-1... I have to win the next four rounds to make it to day 2... I win the first 3 and in the final round something highly unfortunate happens... for my opponent, I win the final round against the same player who gave a friend of mine his first loss. By some miracle I make it to day 2 with only having lost 5 games in 9 rounds of playing.
lost one round to maverick when I had the kill on board for both games because I can't get any wastelands or ports for his maze. Never saw any of them in the match.
The draw was to UW Stoneblade, game 3 went to time and I didn't have the win quite yet by my final turn of turn four and he doesn't have win on board either, so I ask if he wants to call it a draw, he shows me his hand which coinsisted of a batterskull and a V.Clique and he asks if I want to scoop to him. I say know because I still have all 4 STP's the 3 stoneforges and manriki-gusari as answers with 40ish cards left in the deck and I was still at 20 life and I would have had maybe 3-4 rounds to get them before it would have been too late.
Most Memorable game of day 1 happens in round 8. I was on the play for game 1 and I have to mull to five(only double mull of the tourney). I keep a hand consisting of Plains, Wasteland, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Leonin Arbiter, and Mother of Runes. He forces my turn one Vial (much to my dismay, but not the end of the world)... I don't remember exactly what happens, but at the end of the game I had broken 2 standstills and he used 3 pernicious deeds, he broke the third standstill because I kept using Rishadan Ports and Wastelands to stop his only aggro win con of Mishra's Factory. Eventually he lands a Mindsculptor that I kill, then a second one a turn or two later that I can't deal with since he counters my Flickerwisps that would have reset the loyalty counters. All in all he had around 10 more cards in his deck from all the brainstorms, jacestorms, and standstills. He was playing a deck that I hadn't seen in most of a year called BUG Still. I had him down to 4 life(if I recal correctly) with two equipment in my hand and a Karakas when I already had one in play. He uses the Ultimate ability of Jace for the win, but for mulling to 5 on the play I did extremely well for being at that much card disadvantage(especially when he draws 6 free cards from the 2 standstills. I end up winning with relative ease in games 2 and 3 though ^_^

I am 51st place going in to game two.
I win round 10 against zoo played by Mary Jacobson with game one taking just under 20 minutes.
Lost round 11 to Ben Stark playing maverick
Round 12 Lost to high tide in three games(game two I had Canonist, Thalia, Revoker naming candlelabra, and leonin arbiter on board to his 4 lands.)
Round 13 I almost lose against Maverick in game three because I pick up my Phyrexian Revoker that's naming my opponents SOLAS, but catch it in time before I actually put it there. He played Qasali Pridemage, sacrificed it to destroy my Revoker, but I realize that it's a colored source just in time to save it with one of my two active Moms.
Round 14 I play against UW Stoneblade again and get him in a 15 mintue game one, then game two at the end of the game(he scooped) I had 4 plains and 2 ports in play after him wasting a karakas and me wasting his 2 tundras. I get an AEther Vial on 3 counters and another one on 2 counters with Thalia on board and Magara did his trick with flickerwisp once, and karakas 4 times before he wastes the karakas(got rid of his basic lands) the turn after he wastes the karakas I top deck a second Flickerwisp and get another permanent. at the end of the game he has 4 lands left, 2 factories, a laboratory, and an academy ruins. I keep tapping the factories on his turn when he goes to activate them, or at the end of turn so I have a free attack on him... That was my favorite game on the tourney, mainly because I got to completely lock him out of the game with Mangara/Flickerwisp/Karakas combos.
In round 15 I play against Maverick again(if I recall correctly for the 5th time), lose game one to an active Jitte that just rapes my board, get game two with Mangara( my only creature other than an active Mom) equiped with SOFI and SOLaS... Game three he get jitte active and I have 4 turns to top deck my own Jitte or stoneforge to search for mine, I don't get it in time and lose to Maverick for a second round which makes me a bit disappointed since the build I have is generally very good against aggro based strategies.
I was rather lucky the entire tourney that I only played against one combo deck and that was in round 13. I lose a total of 6 games on day 2 for a total game loss of 11 for the tourney(had to play all 15 rounds).
With adding the Grinder in with a game win loss of 8-4. My total weekend experience was of losing 15 games in 49 games (Presuming that I did my math correctly)
I end up with 72nd place, if my opponent and I had agreed to ID we would have had enough points to top 64, but by playing it out whoever won had an outside shot of top 32.
Without further ado, here's the list I used for both the grinder and the GP:
Main:
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
3 Flickerwisp
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 Mirran Crusader
4 Mother of Runes
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 AEther Vial
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of LIght and Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
9 Plains

Side:

2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
3 Etherswormn Canonist
2 Goldmeadow Harrier
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Phyrexian Revoker

The Forge-Tenders were added because on the prevalence of Red and they served me quite well in many of my matches... especially good with SOLAS

The Leonin Relic-Warders were a choice that my friends questioned(quite frankly I almost put something else in there myself), but with AEther Vial on 2 and an opponent not responding to it (ie: Stifle), vialing in a Relic-Warder to get rid of a Factory is awesome! Did that a few times and it also gets rid of Batterskull and other equipment quite nicely, especially when you responds to it by Flickerwisping the Relic-Warder away... did that one once during the GP... Highly unlikely to have both in hand with a vial on 2 and a vial on 3, but it does happen apparently.

The Goldmeadow Harriers are great at tapping down things like Emrakul, or KoTR, and other irritating creatures.

I actually prefer the Mirran Crusader over the Serra Avenger because it gives me another reason to take Vial to three other than just Mangara and Flickerwisp, and I can cast it on turn three, unlike the Avenger. I come with pro green and with a lot of Maverick running around it just seems like a decent call. Not to mention the dounble strike activations with equipment and an active Mom to make sure it gets through(won several games with an Urzatroned Crusader, much to the annoyance of my foes. With both Swords on it it's pro pretty much everything(just land and colorless artifacts can stop it), and with Ports and Wastes, Maze normally doesn't bother it either(but I did lose that match against Maverick in two games with the Urzatron Crusader since I couldn't get Port of Wasteland.

I know some will undoubtable dislike my since I don't play an E-Tutor build, but I've found that the 4 main Leonin Arbiters(only really slows, not stops my 3 Stoneforges in my deck) hurt many more decks than a tutor package does, since they are main board and not just sided, so they are effective in all 3 games, not just games 2 and 3. It slows/stops fetches, KoTR, Stoneforge, and sometimes Kuldotha Forgemaster(personally I think is the only deck where the E-Tutor side is better than the Arbiter main because of Stony Silence).

I also believe that people will complain about how I am no longer playing Batterskull, but chose SOLAS over it... Well I see it that the vigilance is definately amazing, without a doubt... But it doesn't recur creatures like SOLAS does, especially when on a Crusader, which can block it all day long with no problem. The Batterskull has lifelink, but SOLAS gains 3 per hit and recurs a dude each time. With the Forge-Tenders being recurred with the SOLAS, you can infinitely block the Germ with the Forge-Tender and sac it so they gain no life (The ability doesn't target.).
Final Record of Grinder #1: 4-1
Final record of GP Indy: 10-4-1
Final Record of Rounds Played during the Weekend: 14-8-1
Final Game Win-Loss-Draw: 34-15

[Fry]

Also, one last thing about day one for me:

Most Memorable game of day 1 happens in round 8. I was on the play for game 1 and I have to mull to five(only double mull of the tourney). I keep a hand consisting of Plains, Wasteland, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Leonin Arbiter, and Mother of Runes. He forces my turn one Vial (much to my dismay, but not the end of the world)... I don't remember exactly what happens, but at the end of the game I had broken 2 standstills and he used 3 pernicious deeds, he broke the third standstill because I kept using Rishadan Ports and Wastelands to stop his only aggro win con of Mishra's Factory. Eventually he lands a Mindsculptor that I kill, then a second one a turn or two later that I can't deal with since he counters my Flickerwisps that would have reset the loyalty counters. All in all he had around 10 more cards in his deck from all the brainstorms, jacestorms, and standstills. He was playing a deck that I hadn't seen in most of a year called BUG Still. I had him down to 4 life(if I recal correctly) with two equipment in my hand and a Karakas when I already had one in play. He uses the Ultimate ability of Jace for the win, but for mulling to 5 on the play I did extremely well for being at that much card disadvantage(especially when he draws 6 free cards from the 2 standstills. I end up winning with relative ease in games 2 and 3 though ^_^

[timmycolossus]

Still using this list and seems pretty good. Try it out.

4x mother of runes
4x stoneforge mystic
3x serra avenger
3x phyrexian revoker
3x jotun grunt
3x Thalia
3x mangara of corondor
3x flickerwisp

4x swords
4x aether vial
1x umezawa’s jitte
1x sword of light and shadow
1x sword of fire and ice

4x karakas
4x wasteland
4x rishidian port
11x plains

I have not made a board because it depends heavily on the meta. Whether I am local or at Jupiter.

[klaus]

4x mother of runes
4x stoneforge mystic
3x serra avenger
3x phyrexian revoker
3x jotun grunt
3x Thalia
3x mangara of corondor
3x flickerwisp

4x swords
4x aether vial
1x umezawa’s jitte
1x sword of light and shadow
1x sword of fire and ice

4x karakas
4x wasteland
4x rishidian port
11x plains
I have not made a board because it depends heavily on the meta. Whether I am local or at Jupiter.

3 Grunts seem overkill in a deck that doesn't really shed cards to the yard to keep him alive no cantrips no fetchlands etc.
I'd go:
-1 Grunt
-1 Revoker
+1 Flickerwisp (I used to be a doubter of #4 too)
+1 Avenger (I board them out quite frequently but they're golden against all aggro strategies)

[nwong]

Grunt is very good since it shrinks Goyfs and kotr. It's one of the reasons Mav is an even to slightly favorable matchup. Mav's main advantage is superior creatures and Grunt takes that away from them.

It also limits Snapcasters, is almost auto win against Dredge, hurts Reanimator and laughs at Grindstone. It's no slouch in other aggro matchups either. I've had 3 maindeck since forever and haven't had problems with it. Keeping it up for 2-3 turns is more than enough.

[klaus]

Grunt is very good since it shrinks Goyfs and kotr. It's one of the reasons Mav is an even to slightly favorable matchup. Mav's main advantage is superior creatures and Grunt takes that away from them.

It also limits Snapcasters, is almost auto win against Dredge, hurts Reanimator and laughs at Grindstone. It's no slouch in other aggro matchups either. I've had 3 maindeck since forever and haven't had problems with it. Keeping it up for 2-3 turns is more than enough.

It's not an autowin against Dredge since more often than not it'll be way too slow.
Most decks out there don't use their graveyard, which makes Grunt more of a niche card and being able to keep him alive for merely 2-3 turns against such decks simply doesn't convince me. Also if you've fed your 1st Grunt till death, it's likely you won't be able to support your 2nd one for long, which is why 2 seems much more feasible than 3.
Flickerwisp can reset his counters, which is nice, but that's about it.

[overseer1234]

Another good thing about grunt is that when your opponent kills your jitte/batterskull,... whatever, you can just put them back in your deck and search for them again with stoneforge.

And against burn it keeps their lavamancers out of fuel, and prevents them from flashbacking their hellspark elemental.

Seems to me there's a hell of a lot of gimmicks that make 3 grunts worth your while....

[lebarion]

Another good thing about grunt is that when your opponent kills your jitte/batterskull,... whatever, you can just put them back in your deck and search for them again with stoneforge.

And against burn it keeps their lavamancers out of fuel, and prevents them from flashbacking their hellspark elemental.

Seems to me there's a hell of a lot of gimmicks that make 3 grunts worth your while....

I agree that Grunt is a great card against many matchups, but there's also many matches where the graveyards don't grow and you can't summon him.
I believe 2 is the right number, except if you're facing a lot of Dredge, Zoo and Painter, OR if you're using Sword of Body and Mind, which I recomend If you're facing a lot of Maverick.

[Barbed Blightning]

Most decks out there don't use their graveyard, which makes Grunt more of a niche card and being able to keep him alive for merely 2-3 turns against such decks simply doesn't convince me.

What Legacy meta have YOU been playing in? Maverick, Stoneblade, RUG, UR Delver, Reanimator, Dredge, Burn, even combo decks like TES all use their yard as a resource. Grunt is amazing in all of these matchups (so long as there's a hatebear in the TES matchup). He gives you a clock with his 4 power. His 4 toughness means he can't be bolted, or killed by a lot of creatures in legacy. He retrieves things you lost (equipments, dudes) and steals things your opponents want in their yard (lands, types, snap targets, reanimation targets, dredgers, bridges, ichorids, anything with flashback; the list goes on). Most importantly, though, he slows your opponent. Do they want to keep feeding him by churning fetches and spells into their yard? It forces them to reconsider how to play, and for decks that want to autopilot, their pilots suffer. Even for decks like Stoneblade, Grunt is a huge pain in the ass--and also excellent spell snare bait. He also carries every weapon we have like a champ.

In short, the big dumb gorilla is worth 3 slots.

[klaus]

In short, the big dumb gorilla is worth 3 slots.

Haha. Nicely put. I'm sure though that quite a few D&T players weren't able to cast Grunt #2 due to Grunt#1 having eaten up both yards quite frequently.
At the end of the day it's a meta choice. And I'll stick with my 2 gorillas for the time being.

[Finn]

Before Thalia, I was certain that three was the right number. Now, you gotta cut something. I still have three, but I am watching more carefully.

[Barbed Blightning]

I cut one revoker for 2 in the side. I bring them and O ring in for the Mav/Nic Fit matchup, taking out Thalia.

The way I see it, you can do the 2-2 split of any of the following, depending on your meta:

Jotun Grunt
Thalia
Phyrexian Revoker

Alternatively, you could do a 3-1 split of:

SFM
Flickerwisp

Ultimately, we know the cards we want to run in the Main, it's now just a matter of numbers.

[overseer1234]

this might be personal preference, but I'm not that fond of thalia...

I mean, its good enough to play 4 since the opponent really wants to counter it/remove it.

In the long game (where we inevitably will get since we're no way fast enough to kill in the early/mid game) she isn't relevant anymore...

So in all honesty I'm not playing with her because even with her the combo matchup is dreadful (you can't have more then 1 in play, so you cant have the effect cumulative), and you still need to board out enough irrelevant stuff and board in so much.

And even then it's a dreadfull matchup.

I admit that I'll keep the E tutor sideboard with canonist, maybe even thorn, and rule of law.

But, if there's that much combo in the meta where you would need 4 thalia, then i fear you're better of playing a different deck... (in my case that would be dragon stompy)

On the other hand I'm digging 4 revokers (they do so much it's not even funny) and 4 SFM+batterskull.

[Curby]

Games go long, but we're most comfortable in long games. As an example I was playing against a two color deck and was able to keep him off a color the entire game by wasting his duals and porting down THREE basics a turn. Much like Stax attacks resources in many ways, we do the same. Even if Thalia's disruption is less useful in the later turns, a first striking Jitte carrier that can be protected by Mom, Karakas, or Flickerwisp is indeed a relevant threat.

[maurobad2k4]

I agree that Grunt is a great card against many matchups, but there's also many matches where the graveyards don't grow and you can't summon him.
I believe 2 is the right number, except if you're facing a lot of Dredge, Zoo and Painter, OR if you're using Sword of Body and Mind, which I recomend If you're facing a lot of Maverick.

Yeah, even if he costs 2 mana you rarely play him before turns 4-5 or he will die too soon and even then you do not want a hand clogged with them. I believe 2 is the optimal number as well.

[Barbed Blightning]

Yeah, even if he costs 2 mana you rarely play him before turns 4-5 or he will die too soon and even then you do not want a hand clogged with them. I believe 2 is the optimal number as well.

The problem with 2 is that you won't see enough of him to matter in the match when you'd want him. Obviously it's not beneficial to keep an opener with 2 grunts, but even if he or the second one dies in the course of a few turns, that's good by many legacy standards. Burn plays Keldon Marauders, after all, and there's no way to keep them out longer than 2 turns. I also like being able to take a hand without grunts vs say Delver RUG and pop him out when I draw into him and basically win right there. Even if he only lives for two turns, if he connects with any of our basic swords (Sofi, Solas) he's quartered your opponent's life. Even with a Jitte, the ape's scary.

[Seems Good]

I want to see Grunt in more games than I don't...3 is the number.

Where did this Ape BS come from? He's a giant.

[klaus]

I want to see Grunt in more games than I don't...3 is the number.
Where did this Ape BS come from? He's a giant.

Can't we agree on "gorilla" i kind of dig that

[mrjumbo03]

I want to see Grunt in more games than I don't...3 is the number.

Where did this Ape BS come from? He's a giant.

I think it came from this - Simian Grunt.

[Barbed Blightning]

I want to see Grunt in more games than I don't...3 is the number.

Where did this Ape BS come from? He's a giant.

I killed this Dredge player at the GP with a sofi-equipped grunt, saying "...and the big dumb gorilla swings for the fences." Just seemed appropriate.

[Ron Paul 4 Freedom]

Guys,

I got 69th at Indy with this list:

4 x aether vial
4 x phyrexian revoker
4 x serra avenger
3 x jotun grunt
3 x thalia
1 x batterskull
1 x sword of light and shadow
1 x jitte
4 x stoneforge mystic
4 x mother of runes
2 x mangara of corondor
2 x flickerwisp
4 x swords to plowshares

4 x wasteland
4 x rishdan port
4 x karakas
11 x plains

SB:
1 powder keg
2 catacylsm
1 graftdigger's cage
1 wheel of sun and moon
2 kitchen finks
3 enlightened tutor
1 cop: red
1 phyrexian metamorph
1 serenity
1 aura of silence
1 ethersworn canonist

Went 11-4-1. Lost to RUG, Belcher, High Tide, and Maverick played by Dan Jordan who got top 8.

Phyrexian revoker: I couldn't draw enough of him. Playing any less than 4 is a big mistake to me. He is great versus maverick or u/w stoneblade. Names so many things: elspeth/jace, quasali pridemage, noble heirarch, knight of reliquary.

Flickerwisp: Guys, I know this have been debated but...In my testing beforehand, this guy was so lame when I didn't have an active vial. And guess what, your not going to always have a vial. Vial gets forced quite a bit, thoughtseized, etc... I removed 2 of him for room for thalia. Only running 2 mangara was a mistake. I would do 3. I want the deck to have more of a reason to turn vial of up to 3. But to me flicker is not the answer. either that, or just go with a ton of 2 drops......

Serra Avenger: great to put equipment on. with the meta going with more flyers (delver, linger of souls) I have a hard time going to 3. Avengers are bad in the red matchups due to being within bolt range and of course you don't want to have vs combo but everything else its great. I was able to put a batterskull on here facing an opp that had just a germ batterskull in play (playing u/w stoneblade). I will stick with 4 for now

Thalia: pretty pleased with her. backed with wasteland, you can punish poor starting draws. she is not the complete answer to combo. high tide went off on me with her in play. she will slow combo down but we still need a lot of help in the combo matchup

Rishdan ports: anyone else seem to think these aren't as great as they probably once were? I mean don't get me wrong, if your running mono-color like my build there isn't much downside to running them. but they just didn't seem to cut the other player off as effectively as i wanted.

SB:

Kitchen Finks: I wanted something that was useful in more than just burn. I didn't play burn all day. I used them against the two pox decks I played. worked well against them but this card didn't seem to be the most beneficial for the sb. i wanted a cop:red to one use against burn but two to be able to name progenitis. but you want to tutor for a phyrexian metamorph instead so the cop isn't needed.

catacylsm: kinda of torn on this. seems pretty good against maverick and stoneblade deck. but also feels like a cutesy card. maybe cause i feel its good against decks that we already have favorable matchups

powder keg: i wanted another card like serenity. kills empty the warrens tokens. i would use this again

I played a Eureka deck. He plays Eureka putting into play Progenitis, Nicol Bolas Planeswalker, and a land. I put into play batterskull, thalia, and revoker (naming nicol bolas PSW). He is upset about not being able to use the PSW right away. A turn or two later I tutor for phyrexian metamorph copy his progenitus and bash the rest of game with batterskull.

RUG matchup: didn't see any jotun grunt which shine in the matchup. red removal can also make this matchup though

[Star|Scream]

Thank you for the report, and congrats on the finish!

[Curby]

Yeah, thanks for the report.

Re: It's interesting that you go to 4 Avengers and 2 Flickerwisps, citing Vial as a major reason. Keep in mind that an Avenger swinging on turn 5 is a lot less scary, but you're looking at just that without Vial. Avenger's a great dumb beater, but just a dumb beater, whereas Flickerwisp allows for a ton of tricks, from removing blockers and mana sources to resetting our Revokers to resetting their Planeswalkers. The toughness of 1 is an increasing liability, but the key to this deck is the trickiness, and there's just not much with Avenger.

You went to 2/2 Mangara/Flickerwisp and noted that there isn't much incentive to set a Vial to 3. This is precisely the problem experienced by the guy that top-8'd SCG Dallas, and is yet another reason to run at LEAST 3 Flickerwisps alongside 3 Mangara.

Port seems like Grunt, in that some games it's a blowout in concert with our other Taxes, and sometimes it's precisely the wrong card for the situation. However, if you anticipate the continuing popularity of greedy manabases with few basics, then I'd keep the maindeck tools to punish those designs.

Revoker and Avenger are great, but you were only able to keep 4 because of the (IMO inappropriate) cuts to the 3-drop creatures. The list is getting tight, and something's got to give.

[klaus]

Revoker and Avenger are great, but you were only able to keep 4 because of the (IMO inappropriate) cuts to the 3-drop creatures. The list is getting tight, and something's got to give.
+1

[Ron Paul 4 Freedom]

@kirby

I don't think you can look at this just in a vacuum. If I have to hardcast something I'm happy to hardcast avenger over flickerwisp. Yes you can't cast it 1st couple of turn but the deck has tons of other creatures it can cast those turns. Avenger is generally our best target to hook our equip on. I wouldn't fault anyone for cutting her to 3. Yes both avenger and wisp are better with vial, I just found (imo) the tricks if i had to hardcast flicker that are relevant really don't seem to do much if no flash is involved (i.e. the need to reset a revoker). so to me i'll take a 3/3 flyer,vil for 2 mana instead of a vanilla 3/1 flyer for 3 if I have to hardcast.

yes my cut to 2 mangara and 2 flicker was incorrect. I just think flicker leaves me desiring something more.

[Curby]

My intention was not to have blinders on or focus on a narrow aspect of the Avenger/Flickerwisp comparison. In fact the potential for Flickerwisp interactions is one of the main reasons I'm arguing for it.

If it "just doesn't work" for you, then I'd understand why you'd want to replace it with something else. I guess my point is to make sure you don't lose sight of Flickerwisp's flexibility in the light of Avenger's extreme efficiency.

[Fry]

Personally I ended up cutting the Avengers several months ago in favor of Mirran Crusader, it give another reason to take vial to 3 and the pro green can be very relevant against maverick and pro black vs. germ tokens. Also if you need to hard cast it you can do so on turn 3 instead of turn 4 with avenger.

[overseer1234]

@ron paul

you found thalia not enough to balance out the combo matchup.

But in what other matchups did you find find her useful (other then her being a lightning rod)

[Teferi Planeswalker]

Yeah, thanks for the report.

Re: It's interesting that you go to 4 Avengers and 2 Flickerwisps, citing Vial as a major reason. Keep in mind that an Avenger swinging on turn 5 is a lot less scary, but you're looking at just that without Vial. Avenger's a great dumb beater, but just a dumb beater, whereas Flickerwisp allows for a ton of tricks, from removing blockers and mana sources to resetting our Revokers to resetting their Planeswalkers. The toughness of 1 is an increasing liability, but the key to this deck is the trickiness, and there's just not much with Avenger.

You went to 2/2 Mangara/Flickerwisp and noted that there isn't much incentive to set a Vial to 3. This is precisely the problem experienced by the guy that top-8'd SCG Dallas, and is yet another reason to run at LEAST 3 Flickerwisps alongside 3 Mangara.

Port seems like Grunt, in that some games it's a blowout in concert with our other Taxes, and sometimes it's precisely the wrong card for the situation. However, if you anticipate the continuing popularity of greedy manabases with few basics, then I'd keep the maindeck tools to punish those designs.

Revoker and Avenger are great, but you were only able to keep 4 because of the (IMO inappropriate) cuts to the 3-drop creatures. The list is getting tight, and something's got to give.

Hey everybody, I am the guy who played in the SCG event and made the top 4 at Dallas. The thing about all the three drops in the deck is that, so much of our deck relies on great 2 drops. There is no doubt that Thalia has been a HUGE gift to our deck, stoneforge mystic is incredibly powerful, vialing in revoker is often a blindside hit (especially since they cant really respond to the naming) when you vial it in in response to their jace or knight. You can also vial in an excellent surprise blocker like grunt or avenger.

Ticking your vial up to 3 causes things to change immensely with your play style. You can't go back down to 2, so there's a definite permanence once you go to 3. Let's ignore the cutesy flickerwisping your vial to reset you to zero. That will set you back way to far in terms of tempo and waste the main ability you are running flickerwisp for. You also have to start playing around spell snare and can't reasonably protect your great and numerous 2 drops from countermagic.

So, IMO, ticking up to 3 is the right call when you have:
1) Multiple flickerwisps in your hand, and you are behind and somewhat in need of its ability. This is somewhat temporary and when you play all of your flickerwisps, if you havent gained control of the game, your Vial is dead.
2) You have Karakas and Mangara to establish a firm mangara lock. This is a good reason to go to 3.
3) You have Mangara and Flickerwisps to gain some card advantage and beaters. This is also somewhat temporary and you need to gain control of the game here as well.

The inclusion of more 3 drops is a possibility, but I just havent liked crusader in the deck. I also have not been happy with flickerwisp's abilities w/o vial, so increasing the chances of me seeing it without a vial doesn't excite me.

Also, loading up on 3 drops is absolutely a death knell if you don't have a vial in the opening hand, especially considering how fast the format is right now.


@ron paul

you found thalia not enough to balance out the combo matchup.

But in what other matchups did you find find her useful (other then her being a lightning rod)

She is good in every matchup except Maverick (even then she is sometimes a smother for your opponents Thalia). And I have found Thalia + 1 other "piece" (Mom, canonist, karakas, vial) to be enough against combo (excluding belcher) in most games.

[Curby]

Just to be clear, Not many people would advocate adding more 3-drops. Fry's the first I've heard of in a while. I'd just warn against dropping too many of the existing ones, as you further limit the usefulness of that vial-at-three endgame state.

[Barbed Blightning]

Personally, I have yet to see good reason to go down to fewer than 4 Flickerwisps. Sure, hardcasting it may suck, but you can't spell snare it (unlike a LOT of our deck) it's ability resets delvers, walkers and pops swords off. The toughness of 1 is basically a non-issue; in legacy, lightning bolt and swords trump all other removal. In this case, Wisp and Avenger are basically the same, and at least the wisp can stall.

interestingly enough, Ron, Flickerwisp is great for your cataclysms.

[Ron Paul 4 Freedom]

@Teferi Planeswalker - congrats on the finish. any changes that you'd make to your deck? I wanted a 3rd mangara after playing as I ran 2 also. your thoughts?

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

@Teferi Planeswalker - congrats on the finish. any changes that you'd make to your deck? I wanted a 3rd mangara after playing as I ran 2 also. your thoughts?

Totally off topic, but when did we start advertising GOP campaigns on The Source?

[joemauer]

Totally off topic, but when did we start advertising GOP campaigns on The Source?

I personally am for newt.

[Ron Paul 4 Freedom]

@overseer

Thalia is good for a lot of things. the first strike is very relevant. stands up well against goblin guide. good to put equipment on, esp jitte. the blue/white decks tend to run more spells so they will use a stp on her, then that leaves it open for an active stoneforge. the two pox decks i played didn't like her. blue/red delver hated thalia. being able to bounce with karakas was nice also. not like the most impressive card ever but i think it fits the deck

[Leghorn]

Hi guys!
I've been playing this deck for quite a year now and I'm very satisfied with it. I'm writing because I'd like to read your suggestions and experiences for sideboarding against Nic Fit and Maverick. I mean: going to the local store's tournaments I'm always expecting to face these matchups, what should I bring in my sideboard?

PS: I'm sorry for my english.

[lebarion]

Hi guys!
I've been playing this deck for quite a year now and I'm very satisfied with it. I'm writing because I'd like to read your suggestions and experiences for sideboarding against Nic Fit and Maverick. I mean: going to the local store's tournaments I'm always expecting to face these matchups, what should I bring in my sideboard?

PS: I'm sorry for my english.

I believe the best you can do against Maverick and Nic-Fit is to bring pro-green swords (besides Sword of Light and Shadow) and Mirran Crusaders. Sword of Body and Mind seems good here, as the wolves may deal with Liliana while Revoker names Deed.

In fact, I'm trying to find a way to improve my Maverick matchup. My meta is full of Maverick so I want to guarantee a better result. It is currently pretty even as they've learned to play a lot of basics some time ago. I've been using SoBaM in place of SoFaI in this match, but it sometimes backfires feeding their Kinights. Maybe SoFaF is better here?

[Barbed Blightning]

I believe the best you can do against Maverick and Nic-Fit is to bring pro-green swords (besides Sword of Light and Shadow) and Mirran Crusaders. Sword of Body and Mind seems good here, as the wolves may deal with Liliana while Revoker names Deed.

In fact, I'm trying to find a way to improve my Maverick matchup. My meta is full of Maverick so I want to guarantee a better result. It is currently pretty even as they've learned to play a lot of basics some time ago. I've been using SoBaM in place of SoFaI in this match, but it sometimes backfires feeding their Kinights. Maybe SoFaF is better here?

SoFaF is good against both Nic Fit and Mav, as it allows you to utililize your lands for both mana and abilities, while forcing them to discard/choose a hatepiece. However, Feast and Famine is weaker in the late game imo, and Light & shadow gives you everything you need: recursion of lost dudes, lifegain to prevent death, protection from removal, and a way to block kotr/sun titan/grave titan/batterskull. To be perfectly honest, all of the new Swords from Scars block are crap compared to the original two.

in terms of siding, take out Thalias for:

Oust(s)
Oblivion Ring(s)
Revoker(s)
Ensnaring Bridge
Phyrexian Metamorph (Batterskull, Thrun, KotR, Terravore, Titans, opposing jitte, et. al.)

Make sure to keep in:

Managara/flickerwisp--both, if played correctly, are excellent
Mom
STP
Grunt
Stoneforge/Jitte

[Leghorn]

I believe the best you can do against Maverick and Nic-Fit is to bring pro-green swords (besides Sword of Light and Shadow) and Mirran Crusaders. Sword of Body and Mind seems good here, as the wolves may deal with Liliana while Revoker names Deed.
I'll go up to 4 equipments adding a SoFaF, then.


in terms of siding, take out Thalias for:

Oust(s)
Oblivion Ring(s)
Revoker(s)
Ensnaring Bridge
Phyrexian Metamorph (Batterskull, Thrun, KotR, Terravore, Titans, opposing jitte, et. al.)

Make sure to keep in:

Managara/flickerwisp--both, if played correctly, are excellent
Mom
STP
Grunt
Stoneforge/Jitte
Oh yes, that's what I was looking for. Thanks!

I was also wondering if Leonin Arbiter/Aven Mindcensor are worth some slots in my 75 against these decks (especially Maverick: KotR, Stoneforge, Zenith). What do you guys think?

[Teferi Planeswalker]

@Teferi Planeswalker - congrats on the finish. any changes that you'd make to your deck? I wanted a 3rd mangara after playing as I ran 2 also. your thoughts?

This would probably depend on your meta. I would definitely not run 4. Since my metagame is more aggro, I swapped the 3rd mangara with a batterskull, and it worked out really well. There was just 1 time when I thought that I really needed a mangara, and I was able to stall a couple of turns and luckily draw into it.

I feel like since a lot of decks that have white are just throwing in random Karakas, mangara's applications become much more limited. Against these decks, I'm always happy to blow up their karakas with my karakas. Also, playing thalia into their karakas often acts like a rishadan port, which often times works well with the land denial package that I have usually set up..

[Barbed Blightning]

I was also wondering if Leonin Arbiter/Aven Mindcensor are worth some slots in my 75 against these decks (especially Maverick: KotR, Stoneforge, Zenith). What do you guys think?

Not really, imo. Yeah, it's great and all to stop their fetches, but the pain Arbiter causes and the 3-cost of mindcensor has never panned out well for me. I'd rather had e tutor targets in my SB. Or extra removal.

[Curby]

It's not just great for fetches, but for Green Sun's Zenith, Stoneforge Mystic, Infernal Tutor, Merchant Scroll, and countless other powerful plays. The top tables at major events are almost guaranteed to sport several copies of some of those cards, not to mention fetchlands.

You have to consider how you might add it. If your meta justifies maindeck inclusion, and you can find room, then knock yourself out. In the sideboard, the space is also precious. Keep in mind that a single tutor target translates into a playset's chance of drawing a powerful card. Each sideboard slot thus represents a lot of power against an entire strategy, and using 2-3 such slots for Mindcensor/Arbiter has a huge opportunity cost.

Yes, disrupting search strategies is great but many things are great. As per my sig, the problem is finding room for everything you want to include.

[Teferi Planeswalker]

Well, our deck will start to become even more poorly positioned. Zealous persecution is a VERY good card right now and if people are even starting to play Night of Souls' Betrayal (http://starcitygames.com/events/coverage/deck_tech_bug_control_with_nic.html), then this deck will have to find something to adapt.

[Leghorn]

It's not just great for fetches, but for Green Sun's Zenith, Stoneforge Mystic, Infernal Tutor, Merchant Scroll, and countless other powerful plays. The top tables at major events are almost guaranteed to sport several copies of some of those cards, not to mention fetchlands.

You have to consider how you might add it. If your meta justifies maindeck inclusion, and you can find room, then knock yourself out. In the sideboard, the space is also precious. Keep in mind that a single tutor target translates into a playset's chance of drawing a powerful card. Each sideboard slot thus represents a lot of power against an entire strategy, and using 2-3 such slots for Mindcensor/Arbiter has a huge opportunity cost.

Yes, disrupting search strategies is great but many things are great. As per my sig, the problem is finding room for everything you want to include.

I understand your point and I know well your sig :-)
Anyway, since my meta is full of Maverick and Nic Fit decks, and the only combos are Elves and Hive Mind (impossible matchup and the guy is the luckiest mtg player I've ever seen), Aven Mindcensor seems better than Thalia and I'll give him a chance.
Clearly, in bigger tournaments I won't replace Thalia with anything else.

[Barbed Blightning]

Well, our deck will start to become even more poorly positioned. Zealous persecution is a VERY good card right now and if people are even starting to play Night of Souls' Betrayal (http://starcitygames.com/events/coverage/deck_tech_bug_control_with_nic.html), then this deck will have to find something to adapt.

Everyone's been scared of these cards for a while now. Need I remind you guys that we have Wastelands AND rishadan port? Sure, if one of these hate pieces sticks it's bad, but by the time they can actually play them, you should have an Avenger/Wisp/Grunt with a Sword on them. Obviously, SoLaS is the better option, as they cannot remove the creature without first ridding them of the equip, and you can get your dudes back with it. Dread of Night is the only one that I fear, and honestly you can still keep a stoneforge through that.

If these become an actual problem and we have no means of dealing with them, take out a flcikerwisp for an Avenger. 3/3 means she could care less.

[S1N1STER]

Just went 4-0 at my a local event last night with my D&T deck. Played against combo elves, 43 Lands, TES, and then burn.

Jitte and sword of fire and ice killed a bunch of elves.

Turn 2 Thalia in game one vs. TES was real nice, lost game 2 even though I had a Canonist and 2x Revokers out due to a wipe away, but won game 3 with a leyline of sanctity in my opening hand, he put out 14 goblins with empty the warrens but I had out 2 moms and a stoneforge which fetched up a batterskull.

The games went on for a while against Lands but I remember Jotun grunt was a lifesaver both games.

And for burn I just sided in my 2x leylines, 4x E tutors, COP: red & Absolute law.

[Barbed Blightning]

Nice, good to see high standing with this deck. Would you mind posting you SB? I'm curious.

[S1N1STER]

My sideboard looks like:

4x Enlightened Tutor
2x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Grafdiggers Cage
1x Tormonds Crypt
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon
1x Serenity
1x Aura of Silence
1x CoP: Red
1x Absolute Law

[Curby]

Have you done any playtesting or done the math on just how many times you'd have to mull to open with at least one Leyline on the field, assuming 2 copies? The conventional wisdom for not running Leyline is that it takes too many slots. Is 2 really enough to matter, or do you end up mulling into oblivion trying to find one?

[S1N1STER]

Sunday was the 1st time I had leylines in my sideboard at all, I have been getting matched up agiasnt storm and burn a lot lately so I thought a little extra protection from what I originally had might be worth a try. My thinking was to look for an opening hand with either a E tutor or a leyline or one of the other hate cards.

Against storm I sided n the E Tutors, Ethersworn Canonist, and the Leylines. In game 2 I kept my hand that had a Ethersworn canonist and a phyrexian revoker not bothering to mull for a leyline. Game 3 my opening hand had a leyline so I took that instead.

Against burn I sided in the 4 tutors, CoP: red, Absolute law, and the leylines. In game 2 my opening hand had a leyline which was game over, game 3 I kept a hand with E tutor and grabbed a CoP: red on turn 2.

I may try something else next time.

[Curby]

"Leyline or other hate" is a much more reasonable stance than the "Leyline or mull" idea that I proposed, but at the same time Leyline's really only good if you can drop it for free and get immediate protection even when you're on the draw. If you can't reliably have it in your opener, it might be better off as a Tutor target floating around in your postboard deck and representing a virtual 5 chances of drawing it.

I almost wish you'd stick with it a little longer to see how it does averaged over a longer period of time. If you do so, please let us know what you find.

[Barbed Blightning]

Went 3-2 at a local tourney, lost to Junk and Reset-HighTide. Wins were against BW Stoneblade, Singleton Bant and some 7 yr-old's GW deck.

HT: Thalia again proves to be a champ, winning me g1 and having to be bounced 3 times g2. G3 she was absent, and mulled to 5. Tutored up a canonist, which got forced; Wheel and Grunt did their best and I swung lethal, but he went off.

Junk: Forgot to name deed with Revoker, named Kotr instead. Basically cost me the MU. Stony Silence also hurts a lot, and Zealous Persecution was pretty boss against me.

BW: Basically the same deck, except DnT is more stable. He thought flickerwisp bounced it to his hand (odd, since in the game before he actually flickered the target) so that may have cost him the game. Regardless, our SoLaS'd creatures bashed each other for a while until I got SoFI and won.

Bant: Weird deck. Can't be extirpated, but then again, inconsistent. He won game 2 with a Mind Sculptor, which I revoked game 3, and I won. don't expect it at a shop near you.

I was testing Path at this event, and after going up against a pretty diverse range of aggro decks, I gotta say it's not worth it. That said, Oust really doesn't seem to be much better; I've used it before and found it kind of lacking. Back to silver bullets, I guess.

[Curby]

Thanks for the thoughts, it's nice to see a diverse meta there. Sorry to hear that Oust isn't cutting it... I just got 3 to try out.

This isn't really serious, but we could replace some 4 Plains with Ancient Dens and run Dispatch in the side. Between Revoker, Equipment, and Vial, it could work...

[spedn7]

has any one tried condemn for extra removal it doesn't hit some utility creatures but in an aggro meta it could have some merit
@kirbysdi dispatch might be good in the late game but it seems like it would be inconstant in the early game

[Abantau]

took third place in a small tournament with a record of 1win 2 draws 0 loss

4 Flickerwhisp
4 serra avenger
4 mother of runes
3 stoneforge mystic
3 mangara of corondor
3 phyrexian revoker
3 jotun grunt
3 leonin arbiter

4 swords to plowshares
4 aether vial
1 umezawa's jitte
1 sword of light and shadow
1 sword of fire and ice

4 karakas
4 wasteland
4 rishadan port
10 plains

Sideboard
4 enlightened tutor
1 stoneforge mystic
1 phyrexian revoker
1 oblivion ring
1 phyrexian metamorph
1 tormod's crypt
1 wheel of sun and moon
1 ethersworn canonist
1 stony silence
3 cataclysm

DnT vs Gobs 1-1

Game 1: First he thought that i was playing merfolk with the turn 1 wasteland then vial. As i play plains turn2 he pause and thought and can't figure out my deck mechanics. stp'd chieftain and warchief and i stabilize on 11 life as i beat face with serra and sofi.
Board in: 3 cataclysm
Board out: 3 Jotun Grunt
Game 2: He's technically faster as he draw the nuts and blew me with aggression. with siege gang commander for the win.
Game 3: He new my deck mechanics and made the best out of goblin sharpshooter killing mangara and flickerwisp while StS on phyrexian revoker. It was already time and he's on turn 3 active player. vial in 2 Ringleaders revealing all gobs. talk about ancestral recall for red and the kikijiki thing. I have 2 StP at hand with no creatures on board and a jitte; As he declared attackers I took out a chieftain with StP to lessen the massive goblin attacks and took me down to 6. Me, Turn 4 active player, wishing for cataclysm and draw it! cast it and he read it over and over and was surprised with what it can do. He retained a chieftain and sacrifice the rest of his massive army. Turn 5 he played ringleader through vial and attacked with chieftain and ringleader but my last card StPd saved me from a loss.

RUG Delver 1-1

Game 1: This game was long because i mana flood but with a turn 1 Vial resolves and 3 MoMs on early board made him scratch his head and shrugs. MoM just blocks Mongoose and Tarmogoyfs and I StPd his Delvers. the MVP was Mangara of Corondor removing all his Volcanic islands with karakas mechanic and finally vialed a serra avenger and cast SoFI (thank goodness he has no counters at hand) and went on to win.
Board in: StoneForge mystic, Ethersworn Canonist, Phyrexian Metamorph
Board out: Phyrexian Revoker
Game 2: I was confident with 1 Plain, 2 Karakas and 1 Wasteland but his 2 wasteland hit my karakas and my wasteland was stifled and was sitting duck. as my ethersworn and vial was met with ancient grudge but manage to hold him off with Serra avenger and a single Jotun Grunt feeding on to his graveyard reaching 4 counters with only 2 mana for a long long time ( can't cast mangaras, flickerwisps in hand, i know bad draw and shuffling ) but as Jotun dies with nothing to feed on both graveyards he bolt Serra and Flipped delver and 2 1/1 mongoose and 1 goyf helped him win the game. Because of that Singleton Grun making goyf and mongoose look silly it drained so much time and Game 3 we call it draw as we both can't finish each other on 5 turns.

Esper Stoneblade 2-0

Game 1: IoK took out a MoM thankfully he didn't took out vial. on my turn thankfully he didn't counter my vial. on his turn2 stoneforge mystic fetched jitte and i felt cold sweats coming out on my face already. thankfully I dew StP and killed his stoneforge. He cast Jitte and I vialed in Stoneforge fetch my jitte and killed both our jitte via stoneforge. We waited and build our boards carefully but jotun grunt sending jitte back in my deck and flickerwisp my own stoneforge for jitte. He as 5 flying tokens through lingering souls prepare to block my flyers but I make sure MoM protects the one with Jitte and went on to win.
Board: didn't board anything
Game 2: It was a long waiting game as we build our boards. he made a massive token army with 3 Lingering Souls + flashback. He was about to put Jitte via stoneforge when I respond with Vial activation, He let it resolve and vialed in revoker naming stoneforge. mangara took out his jitte next turn and he didn't attack with his tokens and went with defense instead. and went on to win on turn 5 active player times up, with his tokens depleted as i use every jitte counters each turn on killing those pesky flying tokens.

[Barbed Blightning]

Thanks for the thoughts, it's nice to see a diverse meta there. Sorry to hear that Oust isn't cutting it... I just got 3 to try out.

This isn't really serious, but we could replace some 4 Plains with Ancient Dens and run Dispatch in the side. Between Revoker, Equipment, and Vial, it could work...

My concern is stony silence. It reallly hurts already, I fear to think what it'd be like with ancient dens out. Plus, they can waste them in response to take away metalcraft.

I'm going to test serenity and seal of cleansing this week. Should be interesting.

[overseer1234]

Hey, I'm taking D&T for a spinn since I heard my local FNM is legacy this week.

I'll be taking the stock list from the opening post (but with a batterskull as my 61th card)

The meta will have: merfolk, agro loam, burning maverick,, regular maverick, (no) rug, sligh/burn, stupid kid with crappy reanimater (graveborn deck with some mods...), affinnity, and maybe the ichorid/ANT/spiral tide player will be there to.

My question: what do I use for a sideboard?

[Star|Scream]

Hey, I'm taking D&T for a spinn since I heard my local FNM is legacy this week.

I'll be taking the stock list from the opening post (but with a batterskull as my 61th card)

The meta will have: merfolk, agro loam, burning maverick,, regular maverick, (no) rug, sligh/burn, stupid kid with crappy reanimater (graveborn deck with some mods...), affinnity, and maybe the ichorid/ANT/spiral tide player will be there to.

My question: what do I use for a sideboard?

SOFI, Leyline, extra grunts, Wing shards? lulz.

[Curby]

SOFI, Leyline, extra grunts, Wing shards? lulz.

Odd suggestions, given that we already run SoFI and we generally max out on Grunts (though I only have room for the 3 in the main).

I'm assuming overseer is running the updated list with 3 maindeck Thalia. I'd put another in the side. Use Serenity for Affinity, Metamorph for Progenitus and other shrouded fatties, Grafdiggers Cage+other hate for yard decks, CoP: Red for Progenitus/Burn, Ghostly Prison for Dredge/Affinity. Other than that, Finn's list in the OP is still a good guideline.

P.S. Thalia blocks Ichorid all day long. I run the fourth Thalia in the board.

[Star|Scream]

Odd suggestions, given that we already run SoFI and we generally max out on Grunts (though I only have room for the 3 in the main)

Sorry, I haven't paid attention to this thread in a year.

:tongue:

[Fry]

Personally I've had a lot of success with my list lately...

Main:
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
3 Flickerwisp
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 Mirran Crusader
4 Mother of Runes
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 AEther Vial
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of LIght and Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
9 Plains

Side:

2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
3 Etherswormn Canonist
2 Goldmeadow Harrier
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Phyrexian Revoker

[joemauer]

@fry: What kind of success have you been enjoying? Tearing up your local tourneys?

Also, what do you think are some unfavorable match ups for your deck? Is beating something faster like TES/dredge possible at all?

Just trying to figure out if death and taxes is viable right now, but maybe I shouldn't bother trying with the new one mana mega wrath of god coming.

[Fry]

With all the hate bears in the deck TES isn't as bad as it would seem, you can interact a little with the board state with revokers, and arbiters. Dredge poses a challenge but isn't unbeatable. High Tide is probably the hardest match up we have. The aggro matchup(especially maverick) is rather favorable, still able to lose, but it's in our favor. I went 10-4-1 at GP Indy with a 72nd place finish, and top 16 at Jupiter last weekend.

[joemauer]

With all the hate bears in the deck TES isn't as bad as it would seem, you can interact a little with the board state with revokers, and arbiters. Dredge poses a challenge but isn't unbeatable. High Tide is probably the hardest match up we have. The aggro matchup(especially maverick) is rather favorable, still able to lose, but it's in our favor. I went 10-4-1 at GP Indy with a 72nd place finish, and top 16 at Jupiter last weekend.
Thanks for reply.

What do you think of that non sense called terminus. Think it may become a serious roadblock to this deck?

Stupidest card WotC printed since Mental Misstep I think.

[colo]

I honestly think D&T (along with any other sort of aggro-control without counterspells) will not be viable any more once and as long Terminus is legal. If I think of the UW Landstill lists that I expect to pop up (and how difficult, or rather, actually unwinnable this matchup has been before such bombs as the miracle timewalk and the miracle, quasi-free super-WOG), I can only shudder in disgust.

[overseer1234]

Alright, tournament was 4 rounds, and I made first going 3-0-1 (W-L-D)

Here's what I ran:


4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Karakas
11 Plains

4 Mother of Runes
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Jotun Grunt
4 Serra Avenger
4 Flickerwisp
3 Mangara of Corondor
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Batterskull

//Sideboard
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Gravedigger's Cage
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Circle Of Protection: Red
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Stony Silence
2 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Enlightened Tutor

Round 1: Rbg Goblin
He wins the die-roll.
G1: He gets the lackey opening, but doesn't get to draw anything relevant... I plow the first one, he plays a second one, I SFM into jitte, he goes warren weirding and lackey into lackey, and only draws 1 piledriver.... I play Avenger, play jitte + equipe and win from there...
G2: He mulls to 6, keeps an iffi hand and manafloods... I only see a lackey, 2 vial (witch I revoker), a stingscourger. and my topdecked jitte wins with something I can't remember protected by mother of runes....

1-0-0

R2: Reanimate
He wins the die-roll
G1: he goes fetch, go, I go land go, he goes careful study, I go jothun grunt and he doesn't find his reanimation spell fast enough and draws nothing that can win against my armada of flyers+sword of fire and ice
G2: He opens with carefull study, I open with gravediggers cage. He gets to show and tell a Jin, and I a grunt... he eventually wins needling my sword and jitte while I draw crap....
G3: I go land go, he goes T1 Entomb, I go EOT Tutor, for next turn gravedigger's cage+mother of runes, with a metamorph in hand. He show and tells imperial archangel, which I metamorph. We go to time and I am 1 damage short of killing him after getting rid of the angel (I could swing for 18 and he was at 19...)
A draw it is then.
1-0-1

R3: RUG with tarmogoyf, snapcaster, jace, lightning bolt, lavamancer,... whatever...
He win's the die-roll
G1: I feast upon his stupid manabase until I find a sword of fire and ice so my mon can protect my avenger while his lavamancer is revokered. he got to counter something here and there but I got what mattered to stick.
G2: I get my god draw, with turn 1 vial, giving me a turn 2 mom, turn 3 SFM, turn 4 avenger+equip. I also remember playing a sword in his lavamancer before vialing in mom, and disrupting his manabase with ports....
2-0-1


R4: Maverick
I win the die-roll(finaly)
G1: we have a mother of runes war, but he plows mine while I try to protect my jitte equipped creature.... he forgets that even with his stupid mom's and quirion ranger-like flyer cant stop my revoker from getting counters. I clean up his mom's with jitte counters next turn I blindly revoker qasali again, and win with a flickerwhisp while grunt keeps his knight small.
G2: This was a real LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG grind, going back and forth with battle's preventing his jitte from getting active, to who can get his mom's active, to us both battling about who's sword of light and shadow is better.... I eventually get 3 revoker's out for SoLaS, Qasali, and Eslpeth, with one of them already equiped with SoLaS + a mother of runes active. I flicker his SoLaS, and finally get my avenger's and SFM back from the dead and win from there.....

3-0-1, I get first and win 5 boosters (containing nothing relevant) and a FNM foil dismember

Damn that was a lot of fun for one evening, and we even played some more games afterwards just for fun.

But what really surprises me is that NOBODY knows D&T, and EVERYBODY underestimates it.

I mean, while playing4fun I get thoughtseized, and they see flickerwhisp and go like "Mèh", probably not relevant and take the pretty useless grunt because they are like: OMFG a 4/4 for 1W that kills graveyards is so unfair..... while I flicker my batterskull FTW next turn....


I just really hope the new uber-wrath doesn't kill this deck off.... It's so much fun, and I'd hate to see it die....

[Curby]

Congrats on the win. Your list is delightfully old-school. Was the absence of Thalia an active metagame decision, or do you just not have them? Thalia slows RUG, slows Reanimator, and eats the weenies of Goblins and Maverick even though they play fewer spells. Notably though, you didn't see any sort of storm combo, where Thalia can really help.

[overseer1234]

The absence of thalia is indeed simply becaus I don't have anny. But I can't say i missed them...

[mrjumbo03]

Went top4 split in a 102-man 7-round tourney. Report to follow when I edit this post.

[Schembo]

Went top4 split in a 102-man 7-round tourney. Report to follow when I edit this post.

Really like to see that report.

Played on tourney today with D&T and went 4-1 placing 2nd. List was like this:

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Karakas
10 Plains

4 Mother of Runes
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Jotun Grunt
4 Serra Avenger
2 Flickerwisp
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Mangara of Corondor
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of feast and famine
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Batterskull

sb

1 Gravedigger's Cage
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Circle Of Protection: Red
1 Warmth
1 Pithing needle
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 path to exile
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Enlightened Tutor

Won against landstill, reanimator, dredge and pox. Lost against tempo ***** :cry:

[mrjumbo03]

Report is up here:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23665-Keep-on-Taxing!-Top-4-(Split)-in-102-man-Tourney-in-MNL&p=637805#post637805

[Barbed Blightning]

I honestly think D&T (along with any other sort of aggro-control without counterspells) will not be viable any more once and as long Terminus is legal. If I think of the UW Landstill lists that I expect to pop up (and how difficult, or rather, actually unwinnable this matchup has been before such bombs as the miracle timewalk and the miracle, quasi-free super-WOG), I can only shudder in disgust.

Thalia's our answer to that, and I don't see the doom-and-gloom. If terminus gets too good, it gets axed--like MM was. If it sticks, and I'm merely wrong about Thalia, then maybe we should be concerned; still, I'll take a loss against a fringe deck for a hatebear that beats most of the meta almost by herself.

[colo]

Thalia is notgoing to save you from Terminus - most control players won't mind paying 1W for Superwrath in their draw step either.

[Barbed Blightning]

Thalia is notgoing to save you from Terminus - most control players won't mind paying 1W for Superwrath in their draw step either.

Treat it as a wrath, then. They won't hit it realistically before t4 anyway, and you keep you swords, vial, etc. Use you wisp/karakas to save your important dudes and, if all else fails, keep them off white. Honestly, it's not that big a deal.

[Fry]

I will freely admit that Terminus has the potential to be a royal pain, but at the same time so is massacre and WoG. I think that if you are experienced with playing aggro based strategies, that you should be able to not over extend your field to the point where a wrath effect of some sort will put you behind to the point where you are unable to recover.

[Finn]

If miracles are as busted as they seem, there's always
Wand of Denial
Grindclock
Shriekhorn
Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
and plenty of other crappy hosers. :)

Seriously though, keeping particular cards on top of your library is actually quite taxing on a deck. The control deck we are talking about would not be any Landstill deck any of us have ever seen before. It would need lots of specific cards devoted to library manipulation which means fewer business spells. I am willing to wait and see. And there is also the real possibility that there is a powerful white hoser bear in the next set.

[Antonius]

Has Weathered Wayfarer been run in DNT at all? He seems really good, especially with a vial draw and fetching with wasteland/fetch on the stack. I like that you can use him to load up on wastelands or ports to keep your opponent down.

4 Fetches
5 Plains
4 Karakas
4 Port
4 Wasteland

4 Vial
2 Jitte

4 Swords

4 Mom
3 Wayfarer
4 Revoker
2 Stoneforge
3 Avenger
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Thalia
3 Mangara
4 Flickerwisp

[colo]

D&T is not the right environment for yet another mana-sink that is Weathered Wayfarer. It has been tried on occasion, and even with mild success sometimes, but if you're looking to get the most out of Wayfarer, take a closer look at UW Tempo. That deck is built around that little dude in a way, and really makes him shine.

[Vacrix]

Has Weathered Wayfarer been run in DNT at all? He seems really good, especially with a vial draw and fetching with wasteland/fetch on the stack. I like that you can use him to load up on wastelands or ports to keep your opponent down.
Wayfarer might be good post-board material for matchups where you really want to find Karakas, like against Emrakul in SnT, and various targets in Reanimator. Then again, is it better than the proactive ways of stopping SnT/Reanimator with the Etutor board? Extra virtual copies of Karakas ensure that you have a retro-active way to stop Reanimator cold.

[Penguinizer]

I need a quick bit of advice. I feel like I'm running too few lands at 21 but can't decide on what to cut. I also need to tweak my SB. Here's my current build:

7x Plains
4x Wasteland
4x Karakas
3x Rishadan Port
3x Flagstones of Trokair

4x Serra Avenger
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Flickerwisp
4x Mother of Runes
3x Mangara of Corondor
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3x Jötun Grunt
3x Phyrexian Revoker

4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Aether Vial
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
1x Umezawa's Jitte

SB:
3x Enlightened Tutor
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Stony Silence
1x Serenity
1x Phyrexian Metamorph
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Hex Parasite
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Pithing Needle
1x Aura of Silence

I'll move add Grafdigger's Cage to the SB alongside Absolute Law at the very least.

[mrjumbo03]

I'd cut the 4th Avenger. For the longest time I thought it was sacrilege to do so, but having 7 2drops you can't play on turn 2 really hurts. And of all the creatures, Avenger is really the only one without utility, not to mention the overabundance of Lightning Bolts in the current meta due to RUG. I probably won't play Flagstones as well without playing Cataclysm unless you're up against an inordinate amount of Pox, which is the only matchup I could see you wanting it. I'd go full on Ports just because Mana Denial is so much stronger with the printing of Thalia.

As for the SB, I don't see the need for Phyrexian Metamorph anymore as Progenitus has fallen out of favor. I think you have lots of Artifact/Enchantment hate in the form of Stony Silence, Aura of Silence and Serenity, and it'd be okay to drop 1 of the 3, considering you also can tutor for them. Crucible of the Worlds seems underwhelming also, as you really only have wasteland to recur. Also, I don't know if it's personal preference but I want Phyrexian Revoker over the Pithing Needle on the board more often than not, as hitting mana abilities is much more important for me than hitting lands.

[Finn]

A guy named Garret Roosa top 8'd at Providence, but got paired against Elves in the quarters. I have heard some guys say how easy this matchup is for them with Jitte at your service, but I think it sux even after a big SB. Garret had the same problem I always have. Revokers are powerful stoppers, but you can't attack or block with them unless you have Feast or Famine on them or an already juiced Jitte or Mother of Runes or something. And all this assumes you have their aggro plan handled, which you really can't reliably do. Just about the same thing for Canonist. We really aren't equipped to handle the real problem - that deck barfs out shitloads of elves. And I, for one, am not about to pack dedicated hate for it.

Good job, Garret. Your list was tight.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=45966

[joemauer]

Elves does indeed crush d & t.

As an elves player, I rarely ever have problems with death & taxes.

[Justin]

To beat Elves, you have to have couple Swords to Plowshares in your opening hand and be able to get a Jitte online really fast. In other words, you need to get lucky or it's going to be a blowout against you.

[Curby]

It's a combo deck that's minimally affected by Thalia. Remember how soft we were to combo before Thalia? :cry:

[overseer1234]

If you get paired against elves there's a number of things you can do to slow them down and hope you get jitte active in time.

Plow their 1-drop and port their land (they are very low on land so keeping it under port is very effective), wastelanding their zenith into dryad arbor also works.

Revoker the "tap 3 elves: ad GGG....) is pretty good, as is revokering their symbiote. (plowing these things also works pretty good).

G2 Ethersworn canonist is also pretty good if you have mom out.

And if they still play summoners pact you could try to steal some wins by plowing the mana lord they usualy need the first 2-3 turns to make them unable to pay for the upkeep... (I know this one's a really bad way of winning, but simply trying to "do" some "stuff" like porting and plowing in their next upkeep may result in them just forgetting to pay for the pact...)

There's probably other stuff that you could do, but these are the things everybody can pull off. If you have more removal post board this also gets easier, and if you really fear elves try an engineered explosives for your E-tutor sideboard.

Just my 2 cents.

[joemauer]

G2 Ethersworn canonist is also pretty good if you have mom out.



Elves likes to side in Natural Order/ Progenitus to circumvent this.

[Penguinizer]

You could always consider running Metamorph as a SB card for this occasion. You can side it in just in case.

[Finn]

Yes, you could. But that is almost dedicated hate. Right now there are not a lot of Progeniti and Emrakuls floating around in the meta. I would prefer a more elegant solution, but I bet there are none to be had. I have struggled with this matchup enough to see that the real problem is not going to be solved with some silver bullets. Elves is too diverse and agile for that. it would take something close to a fundamental shift in D+T to a more combat-oriented build. Naturally that would nerf the deck's positive matchups against so many other decks that it is not worth it. Even if Elves became a DTB, I think I would still not get behind such a change. I think this will always be a bad matchup.

[Barbed Blightning]

Well, there is Holy Light (http://magiccards.info/dk/en/83.html)...

If Elves became DTB, I'd go back to playing Cataclysm (http://magiccards.info/query?q=cataclysm&v=card&s=cname). That said, Elves will never go DTB.

[Curby]

Some folks have been experimenting with Crawlspace and Ensnaring Bridge as well. These tools have the additional benefits of helping against Reanimator and Dredge, and are fetchable with tutors.

[Barbed Blightning]

Hey, made top 16 at Jupiter's NELC--11th place to be exact, with a record of 4-1-1. The rundown:

1st Round: D&T

First time playing the mirror match for me, and it's against Fry--he posts here intermittently. He runs Arbiters and Crusaders over Grunts and Avengers respectively. Our first game was a bit of a mutual derp--he played stoneforge and fetched a SoLaS with arbiter in play but only 1 mana untapped. I caught this the turn after (I was preoccupied with my Thalia) when I went to tap down his plains. He admits that he forgot himself, and we call a judge. The judge sympathizes with me, but too much time has passed, and even though I propose shuffling the sword back in, it's for naught. Ultimately, Fry gets me with a Mangara lock both games, and I can't find an out.

0-1

2nd Round: Bant

Next is my friend visiting for grad week. We drove up together and brewed up a Bant list for him to play, though he usually rocks Elves. Not much to report here, both games Mangara locked him down.

1-1

3rd Round: Painted Stone

Next I play Dan Bergquist, the owner of Mythic Games in Elmira, NY. I'm familiar with this matchup, since we play between rounds there, and usually I grind him out. Game one I find everything I need: revoker on grindstone, Jotun Grunt to prevent milling, flickerwisps and wastes for basically everything. I beat him down and we go to game two, in which I bring Null Rod, 2 Revokers, Aura of Silence, Wheel of Sun and Moon, and E Tutors, disposing of SoFI, 2 Stoneforge, 3 Avengers and 3 Thalia. He kills me on turn two, before I can do anything about it. Game three is a twenty minute grind, but I eventually land a grunt, revoker and SFM with a jitte. Note on this matchup: Spellskite is a nightmare. consider is a great revoker target past Grindstone.

2-1

4th Round: High Tide

Three turns in and all he plays is islands, while I run out vial, Mom, SFM, SoFI. The second he brainstorms, my spidey-sense tingles and I realize it's high tide--too late. I beat him down to 6 with an avenger/sofi, but he goes off. Soooo in goes the combo hate (thalia, revoker, canonist all 4 tutors) and wheel, out goes STP, Mangaras and Avengers. Game two is epic. Thalia slows him, while Grunt and Avenger provide supplemental beats. He complains that his math got ten times more difficult, but I just shrug. He's obviously stressing, and he wastes two bounce spells (echoing truth on thalia, mom protects, then wipe away.) He then goes off, milling me with Brain Freeze again. "Okay, my turn?" I ask. He doesn't know what to say, turnabouts, and I ask him again. He finally passes, saying "I'm not sure what you're going to do..." to which I say "grunt triggers?" And cherry pick my yard. Then, since he was at 6 again, I stomp him out. Game three is a riot: Canonist, Thalia, SFM->SoFI, then equip the canonist. Easy mode.

3-1

5th Round: "Top Deck Hero"

Well, it was bound to happen: MiracleTop. UW, with Terminus and Temporal Mastery, with Mindsculptors and Geist. Game one he basically durdles for a few turns. My biggest mistake: not porting his plains, when he had 3 islands, allowing him to Terminus my SFM/Thalia board. I guess I was waiting for a Counterbalance, but he didn't pack any. I switch out grunts for Revokers and another thalia. Game two, more thumb-sitting from him, as he uses the mastery as a Think Twice. I see terminus, but I have vials and planned for it--and rebuild quickly. Eventually SoFI gets the better of him. We go to turns on game three, and, had he not Vindicated my SoFI I would have had him.

Overall: Miracle cards are fun, but hardly game breaking.

3-1-1

6th Round: BUG Control

the record for fastest put-down probably goes to this: 10 minutes, and I win, 2-0. Game one I have two SFM's, each holding a SoFI or SoLaS. I don't give him a chance to live, even if his Inquisition of Kozileks are hitting my revokers; I grab them back and name deed, resulting in a scoop. Game two was also quick, as he inquisitions my revoker and my jitte. I play SFM, mom, and mom, after he innocent blood's me twice. I keep mysti, give her light and shadow, get back revoker, name deed. He scoops them up, revealing two fetches and a Force of Will.

4-1-1 -- 11th Place.

Moral of this story: I would have made Top 8 (probably) had I remembered the Leonin Arbiter or beaten the miracle deck. It's always the small things that get you.

Keep Taxing!

[overseer1234]

Alright, report time.

I made first place at our bi-weekly legacy tournament. This time there were 18 participants, which meant 4 rounds of swiss and the people who tied for first place has to sort it out for themselves who got the prizes. (It starts at 08.00pm so there's no time for a 5th round)

Round 1: Reanimate
G1: I win the die roll. Turn 1 mother of runes, turn 2 revoker on gristlebrand (which he just entombed), he animate dead's gristlebrand and gets to swing 2 times before I land my 2nd mother of runes and serra avenger. so I could block and start beating while I sword his reanimated jin gitaxis. SFM+sword of fire and ice sped up the process.
G2: My opening hand has all my hate so turn 1 relic of progenitus gets forces, grafdiggers cage resolves, wheel of sun and moon resolves and I get a mangara lock going. Seriously nuts draw...

1-0-0 (2-0-0 in games)

Round 2: Dredge
G1: I win the die roll and open with mother of runes, he goes cephalid coloseum+LED. Turn 2 revoker switches his LED off, and turn 3 jothun grunt makes minced meat out of him when he grabs a jitte next turn.
G2: he goes T1 that red careful study and double LED + gemstone mine. I go land go and with an enlightened tutor in hand... he gets turn 2 cephalid coloseum and goes nuts....
G3: I go first turn land go, he gets gemstone + hardcast therapy. I respond with enlightened tutor for wheel of sun and moon and he scoops because he didn't expect enchantment based yard-thate...

2-0-0 (4-1-0 in games)

Round 3: thopter foundry+elspeth+jace+SFM+trinket toolbox.dec (no idea what it's called)
G1: I lose the die roll. I resolve my vial because he didn't find a force, eventually win with a sword of fire and ice+jitte equiped avenger while using several revokers to switch of SDT, jace, elspeth,.... thanks to some flickerwhisping.
Eat that thopter tokens....
G2: He assembles his a hell of a lot of artifacts but I have 2 vials and my batterskull out while I destroy everything with serenity (couldn't bounce my batterskull). I don't find enough gas, and he kills me with academy ruins fishing everything back for him...
G3: Turn 1 vial resolves and I keep his mana down with port and wastelands and win pretty easy since I simple play mom, revoker SFM into sword of fire and ice.

3-0-0 (6-2-0 in games)

My opponent and me are damn tired. we both know what we have to play against and don't feel like playing a long dragging game at midnight... He's playing maverick again. And every time we play, the games go LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG (like longcat).

So we shake hands, ID, and drink some beers while we wait to find out if we won anything. (apparently there were a lot of players who were at 2-0-1, so maybe they could knock us out of first place)

I win on tiebreakers and go home with 6 boosters containing crap....

Decklist time:
Main Deck:
4x Æther Vial
1x Batterskull
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
1x Umezawa’s Jitte
4x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Flickerwisp
3x Jotun Grunt
3x Mangara of Corondor
4x Mother of Runes
4x Serra Avenger
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Karakas
11x Plains
4x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland
61

Sideboard
1x Grafdigger’s Cage
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Thorn of Amethyst
1x Phyrexian Metamorph
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Circle of Protection: Red
1x Ghostly Prison
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Serenity
1x Stony Silence
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon
4x Enlightened Tutor
61+15

Props
Serra avenger+equipment is like playing combo...

Slops
Death&Taxes being underplayed/underrated by the world.
Not wanting to cut anything for Thalia's...

[nwong]

Has SoFaF become better than SolaS now that most removal is non-targeted (terminus, dread of night, deed, bolt, innocent blood)?

[mrjumbo03]

Swords to Plowshares is still the most played removal in the format.

[Finn]

Nwong, I keep teetering between the two.

[nwong]

Went 2-1-1 at my local, 17 people. Good for a 3 way tie at 4th.

List for reference:

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Karakas
11 Plains

4 Mother of Runes
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Serra Avenger
4 Flickerwisp
3 Mangara of Corondor

4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

Sideboard

1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Circle of Protection: Red
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Jotun Grunt
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Oust
1 Stony Silence
3 Leonin Arbiter
3 Enlightened Tutor



Rd1: Cloudpost Turbofog:

G1: I have no idea what he's playing until he drops an Oblivion Stone and wipes my board. Luckily I still have a Grunt. I port him and get 2 swings in. I drop a Thalia, and whittle down his life. I keep developing my board with a Revoker (naming O-stone) and SFM fetching SoFaF, put it into play and equipping it. He drags the game with a few Moment's Peace. Eventually he drops a Wurmcoil, which threatens to help him stabilize. He swings, but I fog with Thalia + Karakas. I finish him off next turn.

-4 Mum +2 Revoker +2 Etutor

G2: I get 2 revokers early, naming O-stone and Mindslaver. He doesn't do a whole lot, just dropping lands. I Flick his Simic Growth Chamber during his turn with Vial to set him back. On my turn I do this again, before Wasting it during my end step. He's now down to 1 land and can't come back, but time runs out.

1-0 1-0-1

R2: Sneaky Show

G1: I know what he's playing since my friend scouted him out during round 1 (he had a bye). I get the god hand with Vial, Thalia and Karakas. He Show and Tells - I drop SFM and tutor up SoFaI, he drops Emrakul. I drop Karakas and bounce Emrakul. SoFaI and beats get there.

-4 StP +2 Revoker +2 Etutor

G2: Basically more of the same. Early Thalia, wasteland his lone land, SFM into SoFaI. He was never really in it.

2-0 3-0-1

R3: UW Stoneblade with Mutavaults

G1: This doesn't go well for me. Vial is Forced, Thalia is Snared. He gets SFM into Jitte. I get SFM into SoFaI, since I have Revoker. I drop Revoker naming Jitte, but it's StPed. I should have gotten Jitte here since I have 2 Wisps. Jitte comes online for him and I don't manage to come back.

-3 SFM -1 Jitte -1 SoFaF -1 SoFaI +3 Arbiter +2 Revoker +1 Grunt

G2: I get a fast start with Vial into Mum and Revoker naming Jitte. He Wraths, but I still have Wisp in hand, so I Vial it in and start the beats. He drops SFM into Batterskull and I StP. I drop Mangara next turn and threaten to exile everything with Karakas. He has the 2 StPs to stop me though. Eventually Batterskull comes down and despite a Thalia + Karakas fog taking him by surprise, I can't race him.

2-1 3-2-1

R4: Dredge

G1: I have Vial and Thalia, but Dredge doesn't really care too much. I can't find a Grunt so he starts pumping the board with Zombies and Ichorids. I have SFM into SoFaI to try to race. I'm forced to use the shock to take out his 3 Bridges. In the end, he outraces me by a turn. This match actually takes quite a while.

-3 Mangara -2 Revoker +3 Etutor +1 Wheel +1 Grunt

G2: He has a quick start and starts dredging a ton. I have the Grunt to stop him though. He can't afford to stop and let Grunt die, so he keeps dredging. I cherrypick his graveyard each turn and kill him.

G3: We go to time and even though I mull into oblivion, he can't kill me in time.

Overall I felt the main performed well, and the sideboard was probably off by a couple of cards. Arbiters were useless, and I probably needed a Relic or Crypt in addition to Wheel for Dredge. I didn't expect Stoneblade to be as tough as it was, but the Mutavaults were good since he was running SoFaI in addition to Batterskull and Jitte.

[overseer1234]

Allright, report again from my bi-weekly legacy event.

I played the exact same list as I did in the previous tourney.

Round 1: Mono red burn
G1: I'm just way to slow to race a T1 goblin guide + 2 times that miracle (R for 5 dmg) and some other burn...
G2: I manage to get a cop red, but draw my batterskull, brainfart and tap out to play it and die in his next turn (yes indeed stupid me...)-
0-1-0

Round 2: Ascension (whie weeny lifegain)
G1: He gains ****load of life, but an avenger+SoLaS+SoFaI+Batterkull were more then enough for the win
G2: we go LOOOOOOOONG but I get a mangara + karakas going while SoLaS+Avanger and mother of runes keep him at bay, and win eventually after we both gain way to much life......
1-1-0

Round 3: Belcher
G1: he gets a turn 1 14 goblin tokens... nuff said
G2: he mulls to five and I get a thorn of amethyst and a stony silence out, and win by SFM into batterskull
G3: he mulls to six and goes turn 2 belcher but not enough mana to activate it. I search and find stony silence and continue to find a thorn of amethyst, and a phyrexian revoker + mother of runes...
I guess I got lucky
2-1-0

Round 4: GW Maverick
G1: he simple draws more good stuff than me, and I die...
G2: T1 vial, I sword his heirarch, wasteland his arbor, port his other land, and win thanks to vial+Mom and flyers
G3: here we go LOOOOOONG again and I win eventual with SoLaS+avanger while my revokers yell mother of runes and qasali...
3-1-0

I eventually get 4th and go home pretty happy...

Props:
Avenger+Equipment won me so manny games it's not even funny
Revokers save my ass a hell of a lot
Enlightened tutor sideboard rocks

Slops:
Brainfarting and screwing up bigtime against burn...
Knowing I really need to play Thalia, but the deck preforms so good I really don't mis her (and I see combo as an acceptable autoloss...)

Last but not least: The decklist

Main Deck:
4x Æther Vial
1x Batterskull
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
1x Umezawa’s Jitte

4x Phyrexian Revoker

4x Flickerwisp
3x Jotun Grunt
3x Mangara of Corondor
4x Mother of Runes
4x Serra Avenger
4x Stoneforge Mystic

4x Swords to Plowshares

4x Karakas
11x Plains
4x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland
#61

Sideboard
4x Enlightened Tutor
1x Grafdigger’s Cage
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Thorn of Amethyst
1x Phyrexian Metamorph
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Circle of Protection: Red
1x Ghostly Prison
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Serenity
1x Stony Silence
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon
#15

61+15=76

[Schembo]

Went 4-1 today wit D&T. there was 12 player and 5 rounds at my local shop.

List

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Karakas
10 Plains

4 Mother of Runes
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Jotun Grunt
4 Serra Avenger
2 Flickerwisp
3 Mangara of Corondor

4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of light and shadow

Sideboard

3 Path to exile
2 Disenchant
1 Grafdiggers cage
1 Tormods crypt
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Ensnaring bridge
1 Phyrexian metamorph
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Enlightened Tutor

Won against coblins, canadian *****, burn and Misthollow Griffin+food chain+emrakul (Is thre name for this pile yet?). Lost against maverick.

Revoker shined in goblin and food chain games.

Thalia and ports in burn match, altought i hitted mana vein in second game and ended that game 7 basic lands in play and 4 non basicks in hand + wasted 2 of my own ports respond to PoP.

First game against maverick was just bad decision for me to keep 7 and lost fast for waste and double Qasali Pridemage for my double vial......

Second game was really tight and i lost race for Sigarda, Host of Herons

2nd place, cant whine about that. Just need to learn mulligan better.....

[Honoluluicecaps]

Hey guys, just started playing D+T, but I've read a lot of the thread. And I hate to do this (because it seems like everyone on TS is doing it...) but how do we think Land Tax can help the deck? I think that at the very least it's worth a singleton consideration in the board against LD-heavy metas (although besides pox what are we really talking about here). I want to test it against RUG too.

Also, I suppose the MD could go in a slightly different direction to allow for Tax's inclusion, but I don't think it's worth it. Especially when considering everyone's affinity for the scroll rack interaction, which is ungodly slow for today's legacy.

[Justin]

Land Tax is a card to build a deck around, not just to throw into a deck. A Land Tax player will probably want to run Scroll Rack and Enlightened Tutor. I don't see how D&T can give that many slots to the combo and still be the same deck.

[Humphrey]

Ok, so here is my take on the deck. Runs very well so far.


3 Land Tax
3 Mox Diamond
4 AEther Vial
4 Karakas
4 Path to Exile
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
9 Plains
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 Aven Mindcensor
4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Sword of War and Peace
4 Glowrider
SB: 4 Burrenton Forge-Tender
SB: 4 Surgical Extraction
SB: 4 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Kataki, War's Wage

[Antonius]

^^

Don't like that list, I feel as though you're not running enough dudes and you're got more Land Tax enablers than are entirely necessary. I think Path is all you really need. Mox diamond can be sick as fuck but you really need dudes. Where's your Grunts? Where's your Avengers? Where's mother? If the plan to slow them down fails, your team is going to lose to every swinging dick in the format.

This is what I'm on:

4 Karakas
8 Plains
4 Port
4 Wasteland

4 Path To Exile

4 Land Tax

4 Aether Vial
2 Scroll Rack
2 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Mother
3 Avenger
2 Grunt
2 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Thalia
4 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Flickerwisp
4 Mangara of Corondor

[GrdiVrag]

Please can somebody explain to me why you are playing PtE with Rishadan Port, Wasteland and Thalia? Isn't the whole idea of the deck to deny your opponent's resources while building up your own?
As stated above, Land Tax isn't just a card that you can jam into every white deck in the format, it needs a lot of building around. If you want to abuse it in an aggro shell, I'd suggest you take a look at the UW Tempo thread.

[Koby]

Please can somebody explain to me why you are playing PtE with Rishadan Port, Wasteland and Thalia? Isn't the whole idea of the deck to deny your opponent's resources while building up your own?
As stated above, Land Tax isn't just a card that you can jam into every white deck in the format, it needs a lot of building around. If you want to abuse it in an aggro shell, I'd suggest you take a look at the UW Tempo thread.

Land Tax. Get it?

[Antonius]

Please can somebody explain to me why you are playing PtE with Rishadan Port, Wasteland and Thalia? Isn't the whole idea of the deck to deny your opponent's resources while building up your own?
As stated above, Land Tax isn't just a card that you can jam into every white deck in the format, it needs a lot of building around. If you want to abuse it in an aggro shell, I'd suggest you take a look at the UW Tempo thread.

yeah, maybe we are both wrong. Maybe we don't need PTE, either. Thalia and Port already induce people to put more lands into play and that ought to be enough. Testing will tell.

[GrdiVrag]

Land Tax. Get it?

Sorry, but I don't. It seems awful, like playing Goblin Guide with Stifle.

I'm curious to see the results of your testing, let's hope you'll find a way to make it work.

[I am the brainwasher]

Am I missing something or is this deck just pure awesomeness right now?
I am toying around with a list (below) for quite some time now and I am truly impressed by the decks powerlevel and think it is one of the most powerful, while underplayed, decks that exist. Honest.

Here is what I ended up with, the sideboard isn't 100% perfect (even if I think it's great) and I didn't took a closer look at how much Cavern of Souls I do want for the deck. Besides that, I can only see myself cutting an equipment for card X/Y.


10 Plains
1 Snow-covered Plains
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port
2 Horizon Canopy
3 Karakas

4 Mother of Runes
3 Weathered Wayfarer
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Thalia
2 Jotun Grunt
1 Serra Avenger
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Kitchen Finks
3 Flickerwisp
2 Mangara

4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 SoFI
1 SoFF
1 Jitte
1 Batterskull
4 StP


Sideboard:

2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Absolute Law
1 Aura of Silence
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Nevermore
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Wing Shards

[Koby]

[I]11 Plains
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port
2 Horizon Canopy
3 Karakas

4 Mother of Runes
3 Weathered Wayfarer
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Thalia
2 Jotun Grunt
2 Serra Avenger
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Kitchen Finks
3 Flickerwisp
2 Mangara

2 O-ring
4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 SoFI
1 SoFF
2 Jitte
1 Batterskull
4 StP


Batterskull is reallllly bad in this deck. It doesn't help achieve the goals well and can get stranded. Even worse is playing 2 copies. Kitchen Finks is also questionable, but we can replace that with O-rings which allow for more tricks and more removal against unfair decks (like Show & Tell), as well as answers to Planeswalkers from control.

[I am the brainwasher]

I have to admit that Finks is not as great as it was pre Terminus, but I still like what it does for the deck. Blocking Mongeese/buying time in general and giving the deck more chances to gain life and hit with equipments is still enough to keep it in IMO. Playing lesser creatures (in the CC3 slot, also) is something I am not convinced of right now.
Batterskull seems awful, but I have felt that it is somewhat necessary to negate different angles of attack from controllish decks and I moved it from the sideboard (where it stood for quite some time) to the maindeck and was pleased with it the majority of games. Batterskull is an awkward draw in many games and searching for it is something that can backfire pretty easy, but it's not like the decks plan is to cast SFM into Batterskull.
Both Batterskull and Finks are awesome against Threshold since they need to invest tons of resources to deal with the greater part of your deck and both cards seal the deal quite often. Flickering (or simply having) a Batterskull is huge against Pernicious Deed and Board-Sweepers and can own the heck outta Dredge sometimes.
I think the card gives the deck more variance, but mostly it is a good one in my experience.
I had a single Oblivion Ring in the maindeck, then moved it to the board. A well-timed Flickerwisp (which is a beast in this deck) and Mangara are still pretty good at doing that job and are not affected by Thalia (like the Elspeth I've cut from the md) and I rather have more creatures in most MU's right now.
Regarding Planeswalkers:
I am not that afraid of those (If they manage to get Jace on an empty board or with 1 creature is basically game against each deck anyway. Decks that pack Liliana are not that impressive in general. Garruk Relentless is a good one though.) and Revoker can still answer those rather efficient, if necessary.
Serra Avenger, while beeing great at carrying all these Forks, hasn't convinced me 100% yet, I like it as that typical situtational card a lot though. I still got the impression that the durability of Finks give them the nod over Serra right now.

Leonin Relic-Warder and Fiend Hunter are not unplayable and if someone doesn't feel like playing Finks (which is 100% fine and propably a better choice, depending on what you expect) I would think of these, especially Warder for the games where your Vial gets Pierced and Counterbalance steps in to wreck the party. Oblivion Ring is the better answer in general, but the body is more important in this deck IMO.

[berksowl]

I've been a reader and observer of this deck and this thread for as long as I've been around The Source, but I'm finally now putting together a Death & Taxes deck for some local tournaments. Much obliged to anyone who can offer their expertise or advice:

Main Deck

2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Flickerwisp
3 Grand Abolisher
2 Leonin Shikari
3 Mangara of Corondor
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 True Believer

4 AEther Vial
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte

2 Karakas
2 Mistveil Plains
17 Plains
2 Wasteland

Sideboard

1 Aura of Silence
2 Chalice of the Void
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Jotun Grunt
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Weathered Wayfarer

Some explanations:

I'd play more than two Wasteland if I owned more than two.
I like both Grand Abolisher and True Believer a lot in theory, but I sort of expect others here to advise against playing them. But it does seem like they're potentially very disruptive to the majority of competitive Legacy decks in my meta. But maybe True Believer belongs in the sideboard.
Leonin Shikari also seems good, but I don't have the experience to see how it performs.
Why is Weathered Wayfarer in the sideboard? Perhaps it belongs in the main. But I envision it most as a way to find a Karakas when I need it against Reanimator or Sneak/Show, thus its presence in the side.

[Tempus]

After reading this thread for a long time I decided to play D&T today at a small tournament. 14 people showed up and I came in second (could have one though, later on that) I got pretty lucky as many games involved 3 Wasteland/Port.

Small report:

Round 1 Esper Control/Aggro

Game 1 I can't handle his 1st turn Delver and die to it
Game 2 goes on forever, lots of creatures die, but I revoker Batterskull (which he hardcast) of Vial and draw my one Batterskull which I hardcast too. I can equip my Germ with a SoFI and take over from there. He throws Chumpblockers in front of me (Lingering Souls Tokens, more Delver, Mystics) and I go up to >50 before he dies.
Game 3 is a draw as neither of us wins in 3 mins + 5 turns

Round 2 Reanimate

Game 1 he starts with land go. I go Plains->Vial, EOT he entombs Iona (the guy was sittning next to me the prior round). Animate dead brings her back and he names white, which makes me a sad panda, but I go on playing. I land through Vial a Mom, Stoneforge (SoLaS) and Thalia. He stops attacking when I'm on 8, because he might have forgotten that Iona flies... And I win from there :)
Game 2 he doesn't find a reanimate target and I vial in Mom, Thalia, waste and port him and have the Grunt when he puts a Elesh in his gy.

Round 3 lifegain homebrew

Game 1 I beat him hard and have no idea what his deck does, double Mom made his Pacifism enchantment that gains him life a blank.
Game 2 he drops an Ajani's Pridemate, pacifies my Serra Angel and that thing groes to 8/8. I chump him a couple of turns with Thalia+Karakas and eventually find Jitte. Deal damage with Thalia, bounce her, wisp his Pridemate and kill it EOT with Jitte. I slowly start taking over after that as I now can handle all his other creatures.

Round 4 Maverick

Game 1 he keeps a hand with Savannah + Cradle and never draws another Manasource/1-drop
Game 2 I tripple Waste him, then put down a vial. He's mana screwed and I think I have this game. He then plays a Hierarch, I port his Savannah next turn and resp he casts Scryb. With cradle he quickly puts down 2 Knights, Kitchen Finks, BoP and I start picking his permanents apart with Mangara + Karakas. The Scryb gets chumped by a Flickerwisp and he casts a new one. Sylvan Library gets eaten too, but he then takes out my Karakas and Mangara has to go. Luckily I topdeck another one and win soon after as again he's out of Mana.

T4 Enchantress

Game 1 I slow him down with Thalia but he wins it easily at 7 life (loads of flying angels)
Game 2 I start with Vial, he starts with Enchantress of Chrome Mox. I waste his land, vial mom, cast Thorn of Amethyst, port his land, Revoker his mox and beat him slowly down as he never gets more than 2 Mana.
Game 3 I waste his first 2 lands, but am stranded on Plains there after. Double Mom beats start and he fails to draw another land and when Thalia is joined by a third Wasteland he concedes.

Final UW Miracle

Game 1 I start with Mom, revoker top and proceed to draw 2 Wasteland and 3 Port and win somewhere after. I keep a revoker and Mystic in hand as I'm afraid of Terminus
Game 2 he starts with top and I am really slow. At one point he miracles Terminus for a 2:1 and I lose somewhere after to double Mishra's Factory + Vendilion Clique
Game 3 I start and can Revoker Top soon. Revoker dies after he casts SCM on Disenchant, killing SoFI and then blocking my 4/3 (due to SoLaS) with Factory. I get Mangara + Karakas online, but only get Jace as he Miracle's Terminus to get rid of my Flickerwisp and Mangara. I get a Revoker down again on Top with a Mom to protect him. I get him down to 1 when I make a misplay. I eot bounce his Clique, untap and attack, let him block my Revoker (silly me) and bounce Clique just then... Next turn I lose to 2 4/4 Angel tokens.

The list:

10 Plains
4 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

4 Mother of Runes
4 Serra Avenger
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Jötun Grunt
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Flickerwisp

4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

SB:
3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Disenchant
1 Batterskull
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Serenity
1 Etherworn Canonist
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Stony Silence


The SB Batterskull was only used against Esper, otherwise I really liked the board. Maybe -1 Tutor +1 something
The main was great, but multiple Karakas kinda annoyed me so I might cut one there.

[Finn]

Multiple Karakas is occasionally a problem, but not in the same zip code as the mana problems you will be dishing out. Actually, from your report you certainly know that. The point is that power has its price. Decide for yourself, but with both Mangara and Thalia in there, it is as important as ever. I still can't see cutting one with 23 lands, especially considering Vials too.

Berkowl, True Believer was commonly used way back in the day before Wizards was into printing truly impressive white disruption creatures, but even then it was mostly regarded as filler. Honestly, even the applications for which it seems like it should be good, it is pretty weak. In most cases, if the front line of attack is working, you won't even need it against any of the top like 100 decks or so. Really only a mono-black deck with heavy discard and light spot removal would have trouble with it (Gatekeeper of Malakir is actually hilarious if the opponent does not realize what will happen). But, I can't remember the last time I saw a Gatekeeper.

Abolisher is a bit better, but frankly there is only one counterspell deck in the format you should fear - Sneak Attack. There are probably dozens of other applications for this guy, but really what are you going to cut for him? There really aren't any weak cards. Since Thalia, there is not enough room in the main for all the strong cards as it is. Just look at the lists with all the 3-ofs. Do you really think Serra Avenger is too weak to be a 4-of in a deck with Mystics? Insectile Aberrations abound, and still we are going to 3. It's tight in there. Do yourself a favor and stick to what definitely works unless you know you have a small, strange meta.

[Quantum]

Played to 4-0 at Monday Legacy.

4x Karakas
4x Wasteland
3x Rishadan Port
10x Plains

4x Mom
4x Stoneforge
4x Serra Avenger
3x Jotun Grunt
3x Thalia
3x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Flickerwisp
3x Mangara
4x Swords
4x Vial
1x Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sword of Light and Shadow

SIDEBOARD
4x Enlightened Tutor
1x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Thorn of Amethyst
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon
1x Stony Silence
1x Pithing Needle
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Phyrexian Metamorph
1x COP: Red

Round 1: Mono Red
Game one, guy mulligans to six, I keep. He Lava Spikes, I Vial; he Flame Rifts, I Thalia; he Firesblasts Thalia and Spikes me; I Mystic for Jitte; he plays Lavamancer, I vial in Jitte; get there eventually with Jitte and Serra Avenger from Vial.

BOARD: -3 Mangara, -2 Flickerwisp, +3 Enlightened Tutor, +1 COP: Red, +1 Amethyst

Naturally COP: Red on turn two, GG bro.

Round 2: TES
Game one, guy mulligans to six, me on play. I Vial turn one; he Probes paying two, seeing Thalia, Flickerwisp, Serra Avenger, Mystic, and Plains. He Brainstorms, and plays Petal. He Silences me on Upkeep, I draw Waste and take out his Underground Sea. Eventually I get Thalia and Mystic out, and win on the back of Jitte.

BOARD: -3 Mangara, -4 Swords, -1 Flickerwisp, -1 LaS +4 Enlightened Tutor, +1 Ethersworn, +1 Thorn of Amethyst, +1 Stony Silence, +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Revoker.

Hatebears come out (Thalia, Canonist, Thorn by the end of turn 3), about to swing for lethal with SoFaI, he has to Shattering Spree through the hate, cracking a LED and leaving his board clear. Eventually Ad Nausuems at 6 life, hits Inquisition/Inquisition/Thoughtsezie/BWish, with his only land a City of Brass, loses.

Round 3: Reanimator:
Game one: Me on the play, I keep a Mom-less, Karakas-less 7 (had no clue what he was on). He passes, discarding Griselbrand, Reanimates on turn 2, that's all she wrote.

BOARD: -3 Mangara, -2 Flickerwisps, -1 SoFaI, -3 Mystic, +4 Enlightened Tutor, +1 Tormod's Crypt, +1 Wheel of Sun and Moon, +1 Ensnaring Bridge, +1 Metamorph, +1 O-Ring

Game 2: Had 2 Revokers on Griselbrand, he Show and Tells Elesh in, I drop Karakas, Enlightened for Ensnaring Bridge (w/other hate in hand),drop Jotun Grunt off of Vial as he has like 8 million useless cards in his graveyard.

Game 3: Land Wheel on turn 2 after he Forces Crypt. Eventually he reanimates a Thalia from my grave, I vial Flickerwisp end of turn, he scoops.

Round 4: Esper Stoneblade
Can't remember much about this one, but I win game one after he mulls to 4 keeping a Mutavault lander and I waste it. He wins game two on the back of a Batterskull and my inability to do combat math. I win game three after a long, but drawn out battle, sealing it with Mangara lock exiling an inactive Jitte and swinging for lethal with Serra Avenger and SoFaI.

I made some bad erros at random points (namely game 2 round 4), and while I don't think i drew exceptionally, I feel my opponents were on the rough end of variance. That said, I really like the deck's matchup against Reanimator post-board, and feel that with a good draw, post-board combo is very winnable. Stoneblade feels like a good matchup, and Mono-red is a crapshoot pre-board, but better post.

[berksowl]

...I vial in Jitte...

"Vial" as a verb to describe SFM's ability too?

Anyway, I was at this event too, playing Deadguy Ale. I didn't play you, but I did play a Vial-less version of Death & Taxes in Round 4 and got blown out. I also lost to your Round 4 opponent.

Your deck looks real solid. Just wondering: Have you thought much about Aven Mindcensor? It wreaks havoc on so much in Legacy, though you probably have good reasons for the creatures you run over it.

[Quantum]

"Vial" as a verb to describe SFM's ability too?

Anyway, I was at this event too, playing Deadguy Ale. I didn't play you, but I did play a Vial-less version of Death & Taxes in Round 4 and got blown out. I also lost to your Round 4 opponent.

Your deck looks real solid. Just wondering: Have you thought much about Aven Mindcensor? It wreaks havoc on so much in Legacy, though you probably have good reasons for the creatures you run over it.
Yeah, realized its more confusing given that the deck actually has Vials. Mindcensor seems very solid against many decks, and I honestly haven't done a whole ton of testing with the deck, but in theorizing, the main deck creatures have better general utility; Mangara is great against Stoneblade decks, and Flickerwisp (what I would say is the most arguable of cards) saved my ass many times with Vial on 3. I went full out with the Enlightened Tutor sideboard, but a couple of Mindcensors might be better.

I saw the other mono-white deck, and it was a little different (don't know how I feel about Ancient Tombs), but in watching the guy play, its clear he had a ton of experience, and could probably outplay me with the same deck.

I'm definitely a newb when it comes to playing the format, but the results were very encouraging.

[woodjt5]

@Quantum: I'm not a DnT player, but that list looks very smooth. I play goblins, and I can imagine that list being a real pain in the ass to play against.

[Quantum]

Its largely stock, but I think that the mix of creatures is really, really streamlined, and play style can be effectively shifted against almost any deck shy of glass cannon combos (the deck folds to Belcher/Spanish Inquisition) or Spiral Tide. I'm expecting to see a lot of Stoneblade and RUG Delver, and the deck seems to function pretty well against blue creature decks.

The effectiveness of the Enlightened Tutor package is impressive; so many silver bullets available that it really comes down to how well you know the meta.

[Barbed Blightning]

@Quantum: I run a similar list, with +1 plains/port and -1 Revoker/Avenger, with two revokers in the side. Is there a reason for the lessened manabase, or is it purely economic?

Further, what do you think about Oust/PtE in the side as additional removal? I'm trying to formulate a SB for GP Atlanta.

[Schembo]

Won a small tourney in local shop again in last weekend with D&T. 13 players and i win against RUG delver, Maverik, TES and the gate.

I play 2 PtE in my sb and they are good in games where you cant cut of color (Basically mono colored creature decks) or opponent isn't playing any basic lands (RUG,TA).

Also i play this deck like controll for 4/5 first turns and then switch to agro mode if possible. Then you got maybe vial ticked in 2/3 counters and got possibility to play avenger or play+equip sword in same turn

[hyggli]

Hi there. I'm playing a classic list, but with 2 Gut Shot md, cause of the meta.

I'm having a lot of problems fighting threshold. The goal, there, is basically to throw in a running SoFI, I believe, but otherwise, can't really manage to win the game. Any advices?

[Schembo]

Hi there. I'm playing a classic list, but with 2 Gut Shot md, cause of the meta.

I'm having a lot of problems fighting threshold. The goal, there, is basically to throw in a running SoFI, I believe, but otherwise, can't really manage to win the game. Any advices?


Primer is well done and updated often.



Tempo Threshold (updated 2/21/11)
-Very good matchup
-You are control
-Your goals are to prevent an early Nimble Mongoose from killing you, and make good plays until you inevitably win. If you get some combination of SoFI and Mom preventing his removal from taking out critters, and you are slow rolling, be aware that he might be saving them for your head. Keep him off a color. Ports get used on green mana sources.
-The best cards are your mana denial, Grunts and removal. Add more if you have it.


I got nothing to add. Grunt is good, mana denial is good, all swords are good (It doesent have to be SoFI, SoLS bringing blokkers back and gaining life is really good too in this match)

[Quantum]

@Quantum: I run a similar list, with +1 plains/port and -1 Revoker/Avenger, with two revokers in the side. Is there a reason for the lessened manabase, or is it purely economic?

Further, what do you think about Oust/PtE in the side as additional removal? I'm trying to formulate a SB for GP Atlanta.

I traded for the 4th Port following the tourney; was just card availability for me. I feel like 23 lands would be a little much... nothing in the deck costs more than 3, and in my limited experience, I rarely find myself even wanting to hard cast Flickerwisp or Mangara. I can see running 10 plains along with the 12 non-basics (to ensure a white source in the opener), but even then I don't know; I'd rather have the Avenger. 3 Revokers might be too many.

My sideboard was purely silver bullets; I honestly think I want SoFaF over one of the enchantments, and Cursed Totem over the Revoker in the side. I think a Path or two would be really good for the RUG matchup especially (as its most often strictly better than Plow against them).

[Quantum]

Primer is well done and updated often.



I got nothing to add. Grunt is good, mana denial is good, all swords are good (It doesent have to be SoFI, SoLS bringing blokkers back and gaining life is really good too in this match)

Agree with you completely; Wasteland and Port are gold, and Thalia is awesome against them.

[Finn]

Hey fellas. I see that there is some new blood bringing new ideas. Wonderful. Let me give you some info to help you all along.

23 lands are what I play with the expectation that my opponents will be keen on (and capable of) not letting me have an active Vial. If you are in an undeveloped meta, playing against opponents who are unfamiliar with the deck, or simply not seeing much counter magic or removal for the Vial, go on down to 22. I would probably cut a Wasteland or a Port for the subtraction. 21 lands is playing with fire. You will get burned eventually.

Delvers have made the Threshold/RUG matchup not as good as it once was, but it is still pretty good for us. Any game that you can handle their first offering you will probably win. Your side boarding strategy should reflect that. I like Oust a lot here, though if you can be certain that they have no basics, PTE is surely better. I am never willing to have PTE in my side board though because Oust comes in against a wide variety of opponents while PTE is sharply limited, as it directly impedes the deck's strategy if the opponent can fetch even one basic from it.

Quantum's words about Flickereisp are right on. Confident, tournament-savvy players who have picked up D&T almost often cut Flickerwisps in favor of their favorite replacement. They were all wrong, probably did poorly as a direct result, and did not stick it out long enough to see their mistake. In addition to all the other things Flickerwisp does, it gives the deck quasi-removal for any random permanents. This takes pressure off the rest of the deck (especially the side board), allowing players to execute their plan A (disruption and incremental board control) with impunity, assured with the knowledge that they always have Flickerwisps to bail them out. It's a powerful position to be in.

Most players have opted against Mindcensors because it is a turn too slow and because there really is nothing to cut for it.

I do not update this OP as often as the one on Salvation. That one can be counted on to have up-to-date info and analysis.

[Schembo]

Hey fellas. I see that there is some new blood bringing new ideas. Wonderful. Let me give you some info to help you all along.

23 lands are what I play with the expectation that my opponents will be keen on (and capable of) not letting me have an active Vial. If you are in an undeveloped meta, playing against opponents who are unfamiliar with the deck, or simply not seeing much counter magic or removal for the Vial, go on down to 22. I would probably cut a Wasteland or a Port for the subtraction. 21 lands is playing with fire. You will get burned eventually.

Delvers have made the Threshold/RUG matchup not as good as it once was, but it is still pretty good for us. Any game that you can handle their first offering you will probably win. Your side boarding strategy should reflect that. I like Oust a lot here, though if you can be certain that they have no basics, PTE is surely better. I am never willing to have PTE in my side board though because Oust comes in against a wide variety of opponents while PTE is sharply limited, as it directly impedes the deck's strategy if the opponent can fetch even one basic from it.

Quantum's words about Flickereisp are right on. Confident, tournament-savvy players who have picked up D&T almost often cut Flickerwisps in favor of their favorite replacement. They were all wrong, probably did poorly as a direct result, and did not stick it out long enough to see their mistake. In addition to all the other things Flickerwisp does, it gives the deck quasi-removal for any random permanents. This takes pressure off the rest of the deck (especially the side board), allowing players to execute their plan A (disruption and incremental board control) with impunity, assured with the knowledge that they always have Flickerwisps to bail them out. It's a powerful position to be in.

Most players have opted against Mindcensors because it is a turn too slow and because there really is nothing to cut for it.

I do not update this OP as often as the one on Salvation. That one can be counted on to have up-to-date info and analysis.

Hmm, maybe i need to reconsider with salvation. I just usually read mtg stuff in work (2 child keep me busy at home) with smartphone and that place is full of humongous pictures,banners and other stuff that takes yers to upload.

I've been doing great with this list in my local meta.

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Karakas
10 Plains

4 Mother of Runes
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Jotun Grunt
4 Serra Avenger
2 Flickerwisp
3 Mangara of Corondor

4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of light and shadow

Sideboard

2 Path to exile
2 Disenchant
1 Grafdiggers cage
1 Tormods crypt
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Ensnaring bridge
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Flex slot

4 tourneys placing 1st, 3th, 2dn and last saturday again 1st. They are starting to adapt but im still having so much fun with this pile so time to take eva green again in tourney is not yet current.

So much love for wisp! Ok, i try to squeeze 3th in my list for next tournanet.

I agree with mindcensor, he is too slow to work in D&T.

[Cybey]

Batterskull is reallllly bad in this deck. It doesn't help achieve the goals well and can get stranded. Even worse is playing 2 copies. Kitchen Finks is also questionable, but we can replace that with O-rings which allow for more tricks and more removal against unfair decks (like Show & Tell), as well as answers to Planeswalkers from control.
I've been playing around with this the last weeks, and I'm not sure why Batterskull would be a bad choice, since it seems like an obvious choice along with SFM. Could you elaborate on why Batterskull should not be part of this deck?

Also I'm wondering why many of these decks do not seem to play Mirran Crusader. Of course I can understand that the 3 mana is a bit expensive, but the protection in combination with swords with different protections can virtually make this creature unblockable.

Further I'm not entirely sure what to target with Flickerwisp. Would you usually target an opponent's permanent making the way clear for an attack, or it is common practice to target your own SFM to find another sword or your Jotun Grunt to reset the age counters? You could even target your Phyrexian Revoker to choose a different card to block...

[Quantum]

Played in the Legacy Open yesterday, a little disappointed, going 4-3-1 to finish top 64, but I feel like I could've done better w/more experience and a little better luck. Quick recap, list is the same as the one a page or two back, except I added a 4th Port and dropped a Flickerwisp, and made a couple minor sideboard changes (added Grafdigger's Cage, dropped something I can't remember).

Round 1: Nic Fit (1-1, 0-0-1) Drew 1-1
Played on Table 1... good omen? Game one he goes slowly, I think he's Maverick with a terrible start; name Revoker on Knight, next turn he plays Deed. :( Eventually, starts doing the Explorer thing, and then gets Eternal Witness and Recurring Nightmare, and its GG. Bring in Pithing Needle, and maybe another card or two. Game two I get two Revokers on Deed, Vial goes crazy, stick SoLaS which lets me get through Sigarda and race Sigarda. Game three drags, was going to lose in turns, but he's one turn of lethal.

Round 2: Deadguy Ale (3-2, 1-0-1) Won 2-1
Buddy of mine, knew his exact list. Game one I maul him, with double Plow and double Wasteland (he plays 4 Godless Shrine in addition to Scrublands, as well as Wastes), sit Vial, and Port him for the rest of the game. Don't side anything in, as the deck is awesome as-is versus fair decks. He apparently changed his sideboard, because I get POISONED OUT in game 2 by Phyrexian Crusaders... he added three to battle against white decks, and well, I'm the perfect matchup for them. Game three, he sticks Crusaders, but I stick Serra Avenger with SoFaI, and after having to chump with a Revoker, I'm able to down his Crusaders with shock triggers.

Round 3: UR Delver (Brad Grant, finished 9th) (4-4, 1-1-1) Lost 2-1
I punted this match, and badly in a couple of ways. Even knowing he had a Sulfur Elemental, I walked right into it and misutilized Jitte. I failed to protect Thalia with a Vialed Flickerwisp when I had the chance. I chose to play a random card versus Thorn of Amethyst. I didn't Waste him when I had a chance to keep him on one land. I really feel I should have won this match, and my lack of experience with the deck bit me.

Round 4: UW Stoneblade (6-4, 2-1-1) Won 2-0
I *love* the matchup versus Stoneblade. As aggro-controlly as the deck is, it's really consistent in being able to threaten. This match was pure attrition, and I dominated game one. Brought in a couple silver bullets (Thorn in particular) for sideboard, sideboarded out Plows, as Snaps and Cliques were his only creatures. Game two was even more attrition... came back from two miracled Terminuses and a Snapcaster'ed Terminus, to win handily.

Round 5: UW Miracletop (8-4, 3-1-1) Won 2-0
Again, love UW matchups. First game, he Plowed many things, but with equipment on the field, and my life approaching 30 by the time his hand ran dry, Entreat for 3 Angels was unimpressive (thank you Thalia, thank you Flickerwisp, thank you Mangara). Post-board, I stuck T1 Vial, T2 had Thalia countered, T3 stuck Thorn/vialed Thalia/Wasted Tundra, and then ported him the rest of the game on his upkeep with him only having two lands in play. GG bro. Worth noting, leading with a Port/Wasteland into Vial can be worthwhile if you know your opponent doesn't have Wasteland... he thought I was on Goblins T1.

Round 6: Food Chain Combo (8-6, 3-2-1) Lost 2-0
This guy got a deck-tech, and I wasn't in either match. Stuck Revokers both matches, but Echoing Truth blew me out both games. Tilted myself hard in G2, as I forgot to pay upkeep on Jotun Grunt. Was really, really frustrated, as I had no idea how to disrupt his deck.

Round 7: Esper Stoneblade (9-8, 3-3-1) Lost 2-1
Another Stoneblade match, and one I drew horribly in. Both games I lost, missed third land drop, which is fine, but he had two Vindicates for both in one game, and two Vindicates and Snapcaster for lands and Vial in other game. Literally the only match I had mana issues with @ 22 lands, but tilting nonetheless. Still had a chance, but made a couple of iffy plays re: Thalia and Thorn in game 3 after getting overly tilted with mana screw in game 2 (lesson is DROP THESE CARDS ASAP IN STONEBLADE).

Round 8: UB Control (11-8, 4-3-1) Won 2-0
Played a good, tight player this round. Had an issue with Thalia, where he Dazed something but couldn't pay the 1, and we both missed it until the next turn, but judge staff resolved it quickly and without contention. He was on mull to 5, I beat him down with many things, he scooped once I vialed Mangara in EOT with Karakas. Side in Thorn, and a couple of E-Tutors, taking out Plows. Next game he has control, but I Waste his Tar Pit and Factory, land Revokers at two separate times on Jace, do the same with Pithing Needle, Mangara his Tombstalker, survive *three* Massacres, and actually do lethal with a Jitte-equipped Mom. I admittedly ripped off the top like a fiend in this match.

Overall thoughts: meta much different than expected. I knew a TON of people would be on Stoneblade (based on the 30-40 people I know who played today), but didn't expect to play "fair" decks seven out of eight times.

I really, really like the main deck matchup with all of them... I'm confident I would have won round 1 if I had named Deed on Revoker; I should've won the UR Delver matchup, but my lack of legacy knowledge was really apparent; the Esperblade match was grindy, but I think I could've pulled it out with better draws. I will admit I had no chance to win the Food Chain match, but it is a fringe deck at best, and I feel the E-Tutor sideboard is much better for the T1/T2 decks that give DnT the most trouble (namely any kind of Storm and Reanimator).

Basically, I'm super stoked after my first big Legacy tournament, and excited for more local events.

[Quantum]

I've been playing around with this the last weeks, and I'm not sure why Batterskull would be a bad choice, since it seems like an obvious choice along with SFM. Could you elaborate on why Batterskull should not be part of this deck?

Also I'm wondering why many of these decks do not seem to play Mirran Crusader. Of course I can understand that the 3 mana is a bit expensive, but the protection in combination with swords with different protections can virtually make this creature unblockable.

Further I'm not entirely sure what to target with Flickerwisp. Would you usually target an opponent's permanent making the way clear for an attack, or it is common practice to target your own SFM to find another sword or your Jotun Grunt to reset the age counters? You could even target your Phyrexian Revoker to choose a different card to block...

Re: Batterskull, you're almost never going to be able to hardcast it/equip it/pay 3 to bring it back to hand, and the sting of getting a 5-mana spell countered in this deck is much worse than getting a 3 countered.

As for Flickerwisp, the card is amazing, and leads to BLOWOUTS with Vial on three. Target Batterskull germ tokens, target potential blockers, Vial it in to kill Jitte carrying tokens, protect a summoning-sick Mom, reset opposing Vials, remove their island in first main to keep them off Daze, SFM value, Jotun Grunt value, Karakas function for Mangara, etc. I won a match against Nic Fit by Vialing in Flickerwisp during my opponent's end step, and removing his Baneslayer Angel FTW. That doesn't even take into consideration the lack of fliers in the format.

Some people like Mindcensors, but there just isn't the utility that Flickerwisp brings.

[Finn]

Also I'm wondering why many of these decks do not seem to play Mirran Crusader. Of course I can understand that the 3 mana is a bit expensive, but the protection in combination with swords with different protections can virtually make this creature unblockable.

Further I'm not entirely sure what to target with Flickerwisp. Would you usually target an opponent's permanent making the way clear for an attack, or it is common practice to target your own SFM to find another sword or your Jotun Grunt to reset the age counters? You could even target your Phyrexian Revoker to choose a different card to block... It's not Standard where there are cards commonly chosen for a deck specifically for their interaction with key cards in a common opposing deck. The format is several degrees of magnitude too vast for that kind of thinking. Flickerwisp has decent interactions with some of your own cards, but its versatility is what makes it such a star. There is a Flickerwisp section in the OP for its common uses. It is dated, but should provide a starting place. I think most D+T players are scanning the board for targets whenever they have one in hand.

This leads right into the Mirran Crusader argument. Against "fair" opponents, D+T operates from a position of apparent disadvantage by preventing its opponent from casting their spells when they want to, disrupting their deck from functioning optimally, incrementally gaining advantage, and finally seizing (usually incomplete) control. There really is no room - or need - for an alpha striker. Sure it will deliver the winning blow in a lot of games, but you probably cut Flickerwisp for it. And FLickerwisp grabs games. D+T is in the business of doing a kind of rope-a-dope. Especially, against blue decks like Stoneblade, RUG, UR Delver, and I presume MiracleTop to some degree, you can actually see your opponent's cards in hand diminishing faster than yours while you are just mechanically dodging their blows. If you have an equipped creature dealing combat damage, you can expect to win that game no matter what the creature because D+T is usually fighting to get to that stage. When it comes, the game is basically over. In short, Mirran Crusader is win-more.

[Cybey]

First of all, Quantum and Finn, thanks for your clear explanation about these card choices. I can get on board with the reasoning around Mirran Crusader, although I have encountered several matches where the Crusader let me get to that tipping point faster by getting him through with a sword.

With Batterskull I'm still not entirely sure. Usually when I use it, I never cast it, but cheat it into play with SFM. This does however mean, that if you draw into it and don't have a SFM (anymore) it's basically a dead card. Come to think of it, maybe that's reason enough to cut it from my list and rather have a card which will almost never be a dead card.

[Schembo]

4-0 today. Beat spanish inquisition, merfolk, goblins and b/w stoneblade. Forgot to switch 1 revoker for flickerwisp before tourney but never missed that one.

We were testing our decks today for coming sunday when 14 players for my city travels to play legay in near town. Waiting something about 30-35 players to show up.

Any advice about for my sb? Waiting to see lots of RUG (TY GP Atlanta), couple miracle decks, 2-4 dredge, 3 solidarity (Maybe more, 2 from my city and i borrow mine for local player) maverik and lots of random decks (Burn,eva green, painter,TES, u/w thopters)

2 Path to exile
2 Disenchant
1 Grafdiggers cage
1 Tormods crypt
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Ensnaring bridge
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Thorn amethyst
3 Enlightened Tutor

[DalkonCledwin]

Batterskull is reallllly bad in this deck. It doesn't help achieve the goals well and can get stranded. Even worse is playing 2 copies. Kitchen Finks is also questionable, but we can replace that with O-rings which allow for more tricks and more removal against unfair decks (like Show & Tell), as well as answers to Planeswalkers from control.

I played at a legacy tournament this past Saturday with a Death and Taxes Mono-White Deck. I won only two games (not matches). Both of those games I won because of Batterskull being in play. Batterskull may not directly affect the main combo of this deck. However it is a powerful equipment and it is incredibly easy to search for Batterskull off of Stoneforge Mystic. Not to mention it is also incredibly easy to get Batterskull into play off of the same Stoneforge Mystic. And because Batterskull is a "Living Weapon" we don't even need to equip it to something to start taking an opponent to town with it. Now I realize some of the detractors will argue that the card requires 5 mana to re-equip it, but really, 5 mana is not that much. I managed to get 5 mana most of the time I was playing at that legacy tournament (I played 6 games at that tournament and had 5 lands in at least 4 out of those 6 games). So it is not impossible to use this card.

Also, Heya to all of the long time regulars... Long time no see!

EDIT: @Schembo's Sideboard: First things, I would replace the disenchants with Seal of Cleansing's as those are enchantments that do the same thing as Disenchant and are thus searchable by Enlightened Tutor. Also, while Grafdigger's Cage is impressive it is too easy for an enemy to deal with. I would suggest Phyrexian Metamorph instead. Circle of Protection Red is an interesting choice, but are you sure you have enough mana to make full use of it against say a Goblin deck?

EDIT2: It should be noted that you can Flickerwisp a Batterskull in order to get a new Germ Token, assuming that the original Germ Token is destroyed in some way.

[eq.firemind]

Not to mention it is also incredibly easy to get Batterskull into play off of the same Stoneforge Mystic.
I don't think this statement is correct in a format filled with spot removal.
Batterskull should be good against decks with direct damage, but at the same time direct damage spells are good versus Mystic.
And most decks with Bolts will very well capitalize on this tempo loss.

[DalkonCledwin]

I don't think this statement is correct in a format filled with spot removal.
Batterskull should be good against decks with direct damage, but at the same time direct damage spells are good versus Mystic.
And most decks with Bolts will very well capitalize on this tempo loss.

So you mean like Burn, Zoo, Goblins, and what else?

Last I checked Burn is just about the worst deck in the format. The deck loses to just about anything running blue in it (which is almost everything these days). Zoo has been more or less replaced from what I have seen by Maverick which doesn't run red at all except in some very weird corner cases. And Goblins while still viable is the only deck left in the format that really runs red and truth be told it would be better off filling slots with more goblins instead of direct burn spells for the purpose of killing creatures. Not to mention that for Goblins there are way better options than killing off Stoneforge Mystic (say for example killing off Mother of Runes while she still has Summoning Sickness).

So all told that takes care of the three primary decks in the format that run red. The rest are going to be so rare that you really don't need to sideboard against them unless there is a significant meta shift in your area in favor of those decks.

[berksowl]

RUG Delver is a pretty good deck that runs Lightning Bolts.

[DalkonCledwin]

RUG Delver is a pretty good deck that runs Lightning Bolts.

Funny you should mention that, one of the games I actually played was against RUG Delver, and he didn't cast a single lightning bolt on my Stoneforges. Actually for him my Mother of Runes were of higher priority than my Stoneforges were. Considering I had 2 Mom's out simultaneously in one of our games I think that would make her a bigger target than the Stoneforge whose only major advantage is getting equipment cards from my hand or library and putting them into play.

[eq.firemind]

So you mean like Burn, Zoo, Goblins, and what else?
I meant:
UR Delver (some versions are loaded with burn - even more than Zoo back in time);
RUG (witch could side in Ancient Grudge, so it would not matter what to grab);
Punishing Maverick (some versions run 4 Swords to Plowshares + 3-4 Punishing Fire maindeck)
And yeah, everything around Burn, Sligh and Zoo (theese decks are not showing great top8 performance today, but you will meet them in lower tables of almost every tournament).

[DalkonCledwin]

I meant:
UR Delver (some versions are loaded with burn - even more than Zoo back in time);
RUG (witch could side in Ancient Grudge, so it would not matter what to grab);
Punishing Maverick (some versions run 4 Swords to Plowshares + 3-4 Punishing Fire maindeck)
And yeah, everything around Burn, Sligh and Zoo (theese decks are not showing great top8 performance today, but you will meet them in lower tables of almost every tournament).

So by this logic we might as well cut both the Stoneforge Mystics and all equipment in general from our lists all together simply because the numbers are stacked against us in the burn department. [/sarcasm]

Do you guys realize that the argument you are making is a logical fallacy?

[Schembo]

EDIT: @Schembo's Sideboard: First things, I would replace the disenchants with Seal of Cleansing's as those are enchantments that do the same thing as Disenchant and are thus searchable by Enlightened Tutor. Also, while Grafdigger's Cage is impressive it is too easy for an enemy to deal with. I would suggest Phyrexian Metamorph instead. Circle of Protection Red is an interesting choice, but are you sure you have enough mana to make full use of it against say a Goblin deck?


Yep, seals are tutorable but same time easier to play around. This sometimes matters when chant allows some combat trics.

I wont go in any tournament with at least 3 gy hate in my sb. And against waht you would board metamorph? Got decent match against sneak and animator without morph and cop:red works on progenital.

Funny thing: Still chuckle a litlle bit when i think about my last opponents face who played sneak attack. First game destroyed his manabase and second game dropped blind mangara on second turn S&T when opponen dropped spaghetti monster :tongue:

Cop:red isnt my firs thing to board against goblins (ok it goes in) but against burn, u/r delver and zoo. Creature based decks are easy to handle but decks with lots of dmg spells its a fight against time to find jitte and cop buys you time very well.

Just counted my match and i'm played 6 small tourneys (12-17 players) in last 2 months. 26 games and lost 2 of those.

[DalkonCledwin]

you would board metamorph in against things like Iona, Griselbrand, and other large legendary creatures that you wouldn't normally want to hit with a swords to plowshares (or can't in the case of Iona), or which it is impractical to hit with slower spells such as Oblivion Ring or Mangara.

[Schembo]

Yes, i know that metamorph comes in against legendary creatures. I was asking which deck is so much porblem you want to weaken dredge match for switching cage to metamorph?

I like cage against animator more than metamorph. It forces opponent search for hate before he can animate anything and metamorph just answers to resolved threat + it puts it back in gy.

[DalkonCledwin]

really? Your reason for running cage is the dredge match up? Thats like running Ethersworn Canonist against Solidarity. Dredge can easily play around a resolved Cage if it has to. What you need in that match up is a permanent answer to a graveyard, not some temporary answer. Especially when Dredge often runs 4x Bounce spells. Also, Dredge is still a factor in Legacy?

[Schembo]

And reanimator. Metamorph helps there too but i just explained why i like gace more in that match up. And there might be suprice factor and someone might summon zombardment against me :laugh:

Canonist comes in against solidarity but first thing to search against them for me is Thorn amethyst.

[eq.firemind]

So by this logic we might as well cut both the Stoneforge Mystics and all equipment in general from our lists all together simply because the numbers are stacked against us in the burn department.
You can't afford to trade tempo for nothing in matchups where you are control.
Mystic costs 2 mana, most playable removal in this format costs 1. You grab Batterskull, so you're 2-for-1 them and the cost is significant tempo loss (1 mana at early stages of game versus aggro is significant).
But since fundamental turn in aggro MUs is much earlier than the one you'll land your 5th land, that Batterskull in your help is a dead card.
So basically a scenario Mystic (=> Batterskull) => 1-mana removal means a tempo loss.

[Ignithas_]

So you mean like Burn, Zoo, Goblins, and what else?

Last I checked Burn is just about the worst deck in the format. The deck loses to just about anything running blue in it (which is almost everything these days). Zoo has been more or less replaced from what I have seen by Maverick which doesn't run red at all except in some very weird corner cases. And Goblins while still viable is the only deck left in the format that really runs red and truth be told it would be better off filling slots with more goblins instead of direct burn spells for the purpose of killing creatures. Not to mention that for Goblins there are way better options than killing off Stoneforge Mystic (say for example killing off Mother of Runes while she still has Summoning Sickness).

So all told that takes care of the three primary decks in the format that run red. The rest are going to be so rare that you really don't need to sideboard against them unless there is a significant meta shift in your area in favor of those decks.
There is so much wrong in this post. Burn isn't the worst deck in the format, there are way worse decks and because it's cheap a high procentage of player plays it. And it doesn't lose against everything with U in it. Get your facts straight.
The Goblin deck doesn't run Lightning Bolt usually, but they run Gempalm Incinerator MB and Pyrokinesis SB. And you completely forget RUG Delver (was already mentioned by user above me), one of the three (arguably the most played) deck in the format.
Plus not all single target removal spells are R. There are so many removal spells floating around right now, that playing SFM with Batterskull without counterspells is risky.

you would board metamorph in against things like Iona, Griselbrand, and other large legendary creatures that you wouldn't normally want to hit with a swords to plowshares (or can't in the case of Iona), or which it is impractical to hit with slower spells such as Oblivion Ring or Mangara.
Phyrexian Metamorph, while good against Emrakul and Iona, just sucks against Griselbrand. Not only that you can't bring him in under Show and Tell, the enemy can even respond to him with drawing cards to counter him. Because of this I cutted the Metamorph from my SB.

[DalkonCledwin]

so you guys opt not to run what is probably one of the best card combinations this side of the format map, simply because you MIGHT get hit by a lightning bolt, swords to plowshares, or gempalm incenerator before you are able to play Batterskull off the back of Stoneforge Mystic?

Might as well forget running Stoneforge Mystic as anything other than a crappy tutor then since it obviously isn't good at doing anything else in this format. In fact why are we even running such a sub par card if all that is going to happen to it is that it will get burned or exiled by opposing cards? For that matter why are we even playing a creature based deck in the first place? Surely that is just asking to have our creatures hit by burn and removal and in the process getting ourselves 2 for 1'ed all over kingdom come.

Irony much?

[eq.firemind]

so you guys opt not to run what is probably one of the best card combinations this side of the format map, simply because you MIGHT get hit by a lightning bolt, swords to plowshares, or gempalm incenerator before you are able to play Batterskull off the back of Stoneforge Mystic?
Natural Order => Prog is one of the strongest combinations in format, yet it fell out of popularity because of metagame shift, new printings etc.
Best control-aggro deck now is UW(b) Stoneblade, but some time ago noone could imagine such kind of deck without Tarmogoyf.
I opt not to run Skull because your mystic WILL get hit with shitload of cheap removal and the tempo loss I explained will cost you games.
Also, if you're so inclinched to disagree, pelase explain why this strong combination (we all know it's strong in vacuum, really) is strong enough in this particular deck and is stronger than something else you could run in its place.

[DalkonCledwin]

Actualy, I was talking about Batterskull, not Mystic.
I opt not to run Skull because your mystic WILL get hit with shitload of cheap removal and the tempo loss I explained will cost you games.
Also, if you're so inclinched to disagree, pelase explain why this strong combination (we all know it's strong in vacuum, really) is strong enough in this particular deck and is stronger than something else you could run in its place.

okay, what other equipment in the game gives you a 4/4 lifelinking, vigilant creature just for being put onto the battlefield? That isn't even to mention the fact that it can be reequipped to other creatures assuming you have enough mana. Add to this the fact that this deck makes the Germ Token virtually invincible what with combination from Mother of Runes, and the fact that if the original Germ Token were dealt with you can simply create another by using Flickerwisp on the batterskull.

Further is the fact that to achieve all this you simply need to pay 2 mana twice. Or heck even better, if you vialed your Stoneforge Mystic into play, you only need to pay 2 mana once!

The problem you guys seem to be making of this, is that you assume that the Stoneforge Mystic is automatically going to be the first thing that is targeted, not other cards in your deck. For example, if I have a Mother of Runes in play alongside a Stoneforge Mystic, which would a deck with removal rather try to get rid of? The Mom, or the Mystic? I wager it would be the Mom every time. This is especially true for decks whose creature count is predisposed towards a single color.

The basis of your entire argument, henges on the fact that Stoneforge Mystic will be the only threat on the table. This is generally not the case. If it were, then why play a deck with so many threatening creatures? Heck why play Mangara of Corondor in the deck at all, he is just a flimsy 1/1 creature on his own. Easily susceptible to the very same burn, and other removal spells that you are complaining that Stoneforge Mystic itself is susceptible to. The only difference in the case of Mangara is that you can protect it in two different ways, via Karakas, and Mother of Runes. Why should it be so different for Stoneforge Mystic and Batterskull? I mean yeah, you have 1 less protection card than you do with Mangara, but still thats the same number of protection spells that the vast majority of the cards in your deck are going to have (unless they are legendary creatures).

So the question I asked earlier? Why run creatures that are susceptible to burn and other removal at all? Seems to still be a valid question if your argument against running Stoneforge Mystic alongside batterskull is simply that it can cause you to get 2 for 1'ed via burn targeting the Mystic. Same thing can happen to just about every creature in your deck. It is logistically impossible to protect against every possible contingency. I just prefer personally to play superior cards instead of inferior ones. And it doesn't get much superior than the Stoneforge + Batterskull interaction.

EDIT: Also, the reason that Progenitus lost favor likely had a large part to do with the fact that Survival of the Fittest was banned. Not because the combo lost favor.

[klaus]

I'm actually on the no Skull train and here's why:
At the end of the day Skull is a dumb beater with lifelink. UWx Stoneblade runs it cause the lifegain matters. D&T is a whole different archetype though. Stoneblade has the tools to control and drag the game out to a point when hardcasting it for a resilient finisher is viable.
D&T's gameplan is quite the opposite. We apply early pressure - we're the beatdown with some prison elements. And that's where the pro Skull campaign fails.

Beyond Jitte, I'd run SofI, SolaS, SoBaM and SoFaF b4 that guy.

[DalkonCledwin]

I'm actually on the no Skull train and here's why:
At the end of the day Skull is a dumb beater with lifelink. UWx Stoneblade runs it cause the lifegain matters. D&T is a whole different archetype though. Stoneblade has the tools to control and drag the game out to a point when hardcasting it for a resilient finisher is viable.
D&T's gameplan is quite the opposite. We apply early pressure - we're the beatdown with some prison elements. And that's where the pro Skull campaign fails.

Beyond Jitte, I'd run SofI, SolaS, SoBaM and SoFaF b4 that guy.

In that order?

Oh and just to clarify for those of you that still have this hard on that Stoneforge dies to removal... I just checked with a friend of mine who happens to be a judge. If We Vial Stoneforge in at the end of their turn, and they don't remove it during that end step, then immediately following our untap and draw steps (basically during the upkeep) we are more than free to use Stoneforge's ability. And even if they target the Stoneforge with removal at that point we still get the effect of the ability, regardless of whether they have removal for the stoneforge at that point or not. So this entire argument that Stoneforge dies to removal is kind of moot at that point.

EDIT: Also I thought the "It dies to removal" argument had been antiquated by this point. Sad to see it still thrives in this day and age.

[eq.firemind]

Oh and just to clarify for those of you that still have this hard on that Stoneforge dies to removal... I just checked with a friend of mine who happens to be a judge. If We Vial Stoneforge in at the end of their turn, and they don't remove it during that end step, then immediately following our untap and draw steps (basically during the upkeep) we are more than free to use Stoneforge's ability. And even if they target the Stoneforge with removal at that point we still get the effect of the ability, regardless of whether they have removal for the stoneforge at that point or not. So this entire argument that Stoneforge dies to removal is kind of moot at that point.
Well, if you need to ask a judge about that, then most people here are probably more familiar with rules than you...
Also, in this format best removal spells happen to be instants and cost no more than 2 mana. And most people (your opponents included) know an optimal way to use Vial's ability.


EDIT: Also I thought the "It dies to removal" argument had been antiquated by this point. Sad to see it still thrives in this day and age.
I failed to see "It dies to removal" argument outside your posts. Could you please point me on that?

[DalkonCledwin]

Well, if you need to ask a judge about that, then most people here are probably more familiar with rules than you...
Also, in this format best removal spells happen to be instants and cost no more than 2 mana. And most people (your opponents included) know an optimal way to use Vial's ability.

I know the rules fine. I just wanted to double check my facts. Sorry if I actually conduct debates intelligently and try to make sure I am correct about what I remember from about a year ago. Prior to this past Saturday I hadn't played a game of magic in about a year. That doesn't change the fact that when I see superior card interactions I recognize them for what they are.

Also, the most optimal way to use Vial's ability is to not leave the creatures you vial in after the 1-drop slot open to removal in the first place. Usually you vial in a Mother of Runes the very first thing you do after playing the Vial. That way you can avoid situations like getting your Stoneforge mystic removed by 1 mana removal spells.



I failed to see "It dies to removal" argument outside your posts. Could you please point me on that?

What exactly would you call your entire argument against running Batterskull simply because Stoneforge Mystic "Dies to Removal!!!!!!!"

I don't know how else to explain your argument here. Anyways I have been up all night and I am growing tired. Time for me to call it a night.

[klaus]

In that order?
Pretty much.

[DalkonCledwin]

Pretty much.

so in a format with Reanimator, Dredge and Tarmogoyf, you would rate Sword of Feast and Famine as worse than Sword of Body and Mind?