[Deck] Hulk Therapy

[DURESSyou92]

Flash Hulk was legendary
you either had to play Flash Hulk or some kind of Flash Hulk hate to be good.
Thats What Im trying to bring back...

Creatures:

1x Karmic Guide
1x Kiki-Jikki, Mirror Breaker
1x Body Snatcher
1x Carrion Feeder
4x Protean Hulk

Spells:

4x Summoner's Pact
4x Reanimate
2x Animate Dead
4x Brainstorm
4x Pact of Negation
4x Force of Will
4x Mystical Tutor
2x Daze
4x Cabal Therapy

Mana:

4x City of Brass
4x Gemstone Mine
4x Undiscovered Paradise
4x Lotus Petal
4x Chrome Mox

SB:

4x Leyline of the Void
4x Chain of Vapor
4x Echoing Truth
3x Duress


This deck wins Turns 1-3

The combo is pretty easy(not really)

Cabal Therapy yourself naming Protean Hulk
Reanimate Protean hulk
Flash Back Cabal Therapy (sacking hulk) targeting anyone
Bring back Karmic Guide and Carrion Feeder
Bring Back Protean Hulk With Karmic Guide
Sac Protean Hulk to Carrion Feeder
Bring back Kiki- jikki with Hulks effect
make copy of Karmic Guide Then Sac Kiki-Jikki to Carrion Feeder
Bring Back Kiki- jikki and make infinity copies of Karmic Guide
GG

Please give me suggestions on how to make the deck better.
I really had no idea on what to put on the SB


Edit: First i suggest channel in belcher then i play daze with no islands
The lands should be :

4x underground sea
4x polluted delta
4x flooded strand
?

[technogeek5000]

So basically your using the hulk kill but it costs BB uses 1 more card and operates at sorcery speed. Since its double black you might want to consider running dark ritual to speed your kill. Gl with the deck

[Bovinious]

You really should be running Lim-Dul's Vault, that card is one of the big reasons Flash was so broken.

[DrJones]

Why do you run daze with no islands/underground seas?

[Jaynel]

Why not just play Buried Alive getting Kiki, Sky Hussar, and Karmic Guide?

[Sanguine Voyeur]

What you could try doing, is take the winning Flash list from Columbus and replace stuff with your combo.

The list is here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgevent/gpcol07/welcome), second from the top when you get to the lists.

-4 Flash
-1 Massacre
-1 Echoing Truth
-4 Other Stuff

+4 Cabal Therapy
+6 Reanimation Stuff

[DURESSyou92]

what should i take out for Lim-Dul's Vault?

[Happy Gilmore]

I posted a deck based on this concept a couple of weeks ago in the Mono-green Hulk thread.

the list was this:

4 Protean Hulk
1 Kiki
1 Karmic Guide
1 Carrion Feeder

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Reanimate
3 Exhume
3 Mystical Tutor
1 Echoing Truth
3 Daze
4 Careful Study
4 Intuition
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will

8 Blue Fetchlands
4 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
4 Chrome Mox
2 Island
1 Swamp

SB:
2 Simic Sky-swallower
2 Akroma AoR
1 Body Snatcher
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
3 Engineered Plague
3 Duress
3 Pithing Needle

In initial testing it went dead even with UBW Landstill (had Haunting Echoes and Humility in the main).

The actual combo is Intuition + Reanimate spell. Intuition gets all the pieces at once. I don't think its worth trying to go turbo combo with this deck because its much harder to assemble a 3 card combo than a 2 card combo. With Daze, Cabal Therapy, and FoW this list can interact very well. Being able to disrupt combo and force through yours is wonderful. I will mention though that it is probably worse than Cephalid Breakfast.

[thefreakaccident]

looks strong to say the least... why would you want to ruin the format again?

I don't think it makes any sense... just saying.

[MattH]

Smallpox could be interesting in here, as a way to both discard the Hulk and to sacrifice it while disrupting your opponent at the same time.

[diffy]

You could also try Necromancy (http://magiccards.info/vi/en/14.html) as a way to reanimate Hulk and to sacrifise it (just play it at instant speed).
Although it is at 3 mana more expensive than the other reanimate spells, it would turn the combo back into a 2 cards combo that wins the game... if you manage to get that Hulk into the graveyard somehow... Intuition comes into mind here.

Another way of aproaching the subject would be to use Show and Tell like Hanni did (link (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6290&highlight=hulk+show)) or to adopt the combo into a control shell (link (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5978&highlight=counterbalance)). The linked deck is not about Hulk but it gives some ideas about how to incorporate a combo into an efficient disruptive/controlish shell.

[Nihil Credo]

1 slot to Akroma or Simic Sky Swallower is probably worth it to have a backup win condition.

[Benie Bederios]

What's the real advantage of this over Buried Alive for Kiki Jiki, Karmic Guide and Sky Hussar. The only thing I see is the Instantspeed of Intuition. But it saves up 8 slots( Hulks and Therapies) for almost the same effect.

BB

[Happy Gilmore]

What's the real advantage of this over Buried Alive for Kiki Jiki, Karmic Guide and Sky Hussar. The only thing I see is the Instantspeed of Intuition. But it saves up 8 slots( Hulks and Therapies) for almost the same effect.

BB

You mean take out the hulk combo completely right? I can certainly see justification for that. However, this means that you are completely reliant on having Buried Alive to go off. Atleast with the Hulk version there are multiple ways to do it.

Show and Tell would be great except it allows your opponent to drop one of many cards into play at the same time that stop the combo. Pithing Needle, Meddling mage (Naming Therapy), Layline, etc. The deck is fairly consistent as is, but I might switch Mystical Tutors for LDV. It needs testing, I remember just how good that card was in Flash.

Necromancy does make it essentially a two card combo, that is very interesting. But having therapy as a way of protecting your combo as well as being a combo piece can be very very good.

Also, I couldn't remember one time where I wanted to have the Moxen. Winning fast simply is not the best way in the control matchups. And with Daze/Fow/Cabal Therapy you can be the control deck against combo.

-4 Chrome mox
-3 Mystical Tutor
+4 LDV
+1 Simic SS/Daze/Body Snatcher
+1 Swamp
+1 Topical Island

[adrieng]

I was thinking why not build a green black flash deck.
You have in green pattern of rebirth and natural order to have the combo.
So here is what i was thinking:

mana base 22

4 bayou
4 forest
4 swamp
4 wooded foothils
3 polluted delta
3 boseiju (or additional lands)

combo

4 natural order
4 pattern of rebirth
1 karmic guide
1 kikijiki
1 body snatcher
4 protean hulk

creature for sacrifice

4 carrior feeder
4 nantuko husk

protection

4 tarmogoyff
4 wall of roots

disruption

4 cabal therapy
3 duress

So the combo is

carrior feeder or nantuko husk + a green creature+ natural order

or pattern of rebirth+ nantuko husk or carrior feeder

I havent tested the list a lot but it looks like aluren but you have eight aluren

[Illissius]

Necromancy does make it essentially a two card combo, that is very interesting. But having therapy as a way of protecting your combo as well as being a combo piece can be very very good.


As does Footsteps of the Goryo. I was actually messing around with a deck using eight of those and eight of Intuition/Buried Alive before Flash came around. One problem is that if you want to actually kill them at end of turn when Hulk is sacrificed, you need a way to win at instant speed -- either Disciples or Teardrop Kami/Bloodshot Cyclops, neither of which are very great. Otherwise you're left either waiting for your next attack phase, hoping they don't disrupt or kill you before then, or a three card combo with Therapy. Another is that all of these cost three mana, meaning you kill on turn four at the earliest without acceleration. Using Hulk+Pact and discarding it with Careful Study or the like is another way to go, but that leaves you with a 3-4 card combo again -- Hulk, a way to discard it (and there aren't many good ones after Study), a way to reanimate it, and a way to sacrifice it.

I think Therapy is worth including whichever direction you take, as protection against Swords (sacrifice before they get priority) if nothing else.

Random idea: What about something like the infernal spawn of Benzo and Dargon? Zombie Infestations, and the Intuitions and Buried Alives are also ideally suited to finding Squee and Horrors.
EDIT -- My first draft of this is 78 cards. Frown.

[Happy Gilmore]

Its also worth mentioning that with Cabal Therapy there is no point durring which your opponent can use swords to kill Hulk.

cast reanimate spell
(pass priority)
Hulk comes into play
(you gain priority and sac to therapy)

Its slightly slower than Flash Hulk :tongue: .

[kabal]

You could also try Necromancy (http://magiccards.info/vi/en/14.html) as a way to reanimate Hulk and to sacrifise it (just play it at instant speed).
Although it is at 3 mana more expensive than the other reanimate spells, it would turn the combo back into a 2 cards combo that wins the game... if you manage to get that Hulk into the graveyard somehow... Intuition comes into mind here.

How about using Shallow Grave (http://magiccards.info/mr/en/39.html) instead? It cost 1 less, and you can use Mystic Tutor to find it.

[diffy]

How about using Shallow Grave (http://magiccards.info/mr/en/39.html) instead? It cost 1 less, and you can use Mystic Tutor to find it.

The good thing about Necromancy is that it lets you reanimate and sacrifise the Hulk using just one card... I don't see how shallow grave can do this.

For refference:

Shallow Grave 1B, Instant
Return the top creature card from your graveyard to play. That creature gains haste until end of turn. Remove it from the game at end of turn.

So it's just another reanimate spell as you don't plan to attack with your Protean Hulk and it isn't a sacrifise outlet because you have to remove the Hulk at end of turn which won't trigger the relevant ability...

Protean Hulk 5GG, Creature - Beast 6/6
When Protean Hulk is put into a graveyard from play, search your library for any number of creature cards with total converted mana cost 6 or less and put them into play. Then shuffle your library.

The bad news is that Necromancy lets you only sacrifise the creature at End of Turn so that you would either have to include a way to win instantly or a sufficient disruptive package to surive till your next attack phase... The Countertop Engine comes into mind.

I'm not sure, but the Teardrop Kami/Bloodshot Cyclops combo needs 2 more slots and works as following:

Instant speed win version 1:

Featuring:
Protean Hulk (http://magiccards.info/di/en/90.html)
Karmic Guide (http://magiccards.info/ul/en/11.html)
Carrion Feeder (http://magiccards.info/sc/en/59.html)
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker (http://magiccards.info/chk/en/175.html)
Teardrop Kami (http://magiccards.info/bok/en/55.html)
Sky Hussar (http://magiccards.info/di/en/131.html)
Bloodshot Cyclops (http://magiccards.info/ud/en/77.html)

How it works:
1) Protean Hulk leaves play
2) Protean Hulk's leaves play trigger gets you Karmic Guide and Carrion Feeder
3) Karion Feeder reanimates Protean Hulk which is sacrifised into Carrion Feeder
4) Protean Hulk's leaves play trigger gets you Kiki-Jiki, the Mirror Breaker and Teardrop Kami
5) Kiki-Jiki makes a copy of Karmic Guide which reanimates Protean Hulk which is sacrifised into Carrion Feeder
6) Protean Hulk's leaves play trigger gets you Sky Hussar
7) Sky Hussar comes into play untaping your Kiki-Jiki
8) Kiki-Jiki makes a copy of Karmic Guide which reanimates Protean Hulk which is sacrifised into Carrion Feeder
9) Protean Hulk's leaves play trigger gets you Bloodshot Cyclops
10) Teardrop Kami sacrifises itself to untap your Kiki-Jiki
11) Kiki-Jiki makes a copy of Sky Hussar
12) Sky Hussar(copy) comes into play untaping your Kiki-Jiki
13) Kiki-Jiki makes a copy of Sky Hussar
14) Sky Hussar(copy) comes into play
15) In responce to Sky Hussar(copy)'s comes into play trigger Bloodshot Cyclops sacrifises Sky Hussar(copy) to deal 4 damage to your Opponent
16) Sky Hussar(copy)'s comes into play trigger untaps your Kiki-Jiki and your Bloodshot Cyclops
17) Repeat to an infinited loop

[kabal]

The good thing about Necromancy is that it lets you reanimate and sacrifise the Hulk using just one card... I don't see how shallow grave can do this.

For refference:

Shallow Grave 1B, Instant
Return the top creature card from your graveyard to play. That creature gains haste until end of turn. Remove it from the game at end of turn.


That would be my "duh" moment. I forgot it said "remove from game".

[Illissius]

Der_imaginäre_Freund: You don't need Sky Hussar. This has been explained a billion times in all the old Flash threads, but here it is again. You sac Hulk, fetch Carrion Feeder and Karmic Guide, return Hulk with the Guide, sacrifice it to Feeder to fetch Kiki-Jiki and Teardrop Kami, tap Kiki to copy Guide -- and in response, sacrifice Kiki, and then return it with the Guide copy. Do this an arbitrarily large number of times for a large army of hasty Karmic Guide tokens, and once you're satisfied, use Kiki-Jiki to copy Karmic Guide one last time, return Hulk with it, sacrifice it to Feeder, fetch Bloodshot Cyclops, sacrifice Teardrop Kami to untap Kiki-Jiki, copy the Cyclops with it, and have it throw a gigantic Carrion Feeder at your opponent's face.

[thefreakaccident]

I do beleive that hulk combo is probably the most complicated combo ever to have been perceived in this format... sure we have had infinite loops before, but the combo itself would be a major pain in the ass to do.

[Happy Gilmore]

The bad news is that Necromancy lets you only sacrifise the creature at End of Turn so that you would either have to include a way to win instantly or a sufficient disruptive package to surive till your next attack phase... The Countertop Engine comes into mind.



This is incorrect, Necromancy has the mirage mechanic that has be reworded to use Substance. Basically this means that the Enchantment would leave play at the beginning of your upkeep rather than the end phase. When the 6th edition rules came out cards like Waylay could be abused by playing them in the opponents end step. This was contrary to the original concept of the cards so they were re-worded.

for reference: http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=3621

For the purpose of reanimating Hulk the current wording is better than the original since you can play it in your opponents end step and have it die in your upkeep rather than having it last till your own end step.


Der_imaginäre_Freund: You don't need Sky Hussar. This has been explained a billion times in all the old Flash threads, but here it is again. You sac Hulk, fetch Carrion Feeder and Karmic Guide, return Hulk with the Guide, sacrifice it to Feeder to fetch Kiki-Jiki and Teardrop Kami, tap Kiki to copy Guide -- and in response, sacrifice Kiki, and then return it with the Guide copy. Do this an arbitrarily large number of times for a large army of hasty Karmic Guide tokens, and once you're satisfied, use Kiki-Jiki to copy Karmic Guide one last time, return Hulk with it, sacrifice it to Feeder, fetch Bloodshot Cyclops, sacrifice Teardrop Kami to untap Kiki-Jiki, copy the Cyclops with it, and have it throw a gigantic Carrion Feeder at your opponent's face.

I think using sharpshooter would be better since you can respond to problem cards by simply killing them again. It also doesn't have a stifle problem assuming for some stupid reason your opponent still has one.

[Illissius]

I don't think substance works the way you think it does.

What used to happen: You play Necromancy during the end step. As it's already the end of turn step, Necromancy waits until the end of the next turn to trigger.

What now happens: You play Necromancy during the end step. It loses substance in the cleanup step immediately following, and dies right then and there. Not during your upkeep.

Sharpshooter is a good idea. As it costs less than six, there's also the option of using something other than Teardrop Kami to give it haste (even Goblin Warchief). If anyone can think of ways to simplify the combo further from the five card monstrosity it currently is, that would be great.

[Happy Gilmore]

I don't think substance works the way you think it does.



yea, I missunderstood it. For reference:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/bs55


Go to the bottom "Substancial Followup"

In other words the enchantment falls off durring the clean up step. Either way the only good time to play Necromancy is durring your opponents turn. Any other time and you miss you attack phase.

[DURESSyou92]

so if you use necromancy its still a 3 card combo it just costs 2 more?

[Illissius]

Well, it's either:

- A two card combo, but you need Teardrop+Sharpshooter or some other way to win at end of turn
- A two card combo, but you need to wait until your next attack to win
- A three card combo with Therapy or another sacrifice outlet

[DURESSyou92]

I tested the list with buried alive and found that a 2 card combo that needs 4 mana to win is better than a 3 card combo that needs 2 mana. WAY BETTER. it opened up so much space that i got to put in acceleration and more counters.
This deck wins just as fast and is more consistent. Sure there is no protean hulk combo anymore but it sure is a hell lot better.

Creatures:

1x Karmic Guide
1x Kiki-Jikki, Mirror Breaker
1x Sky Hussar

Spells:

4x Buried Alive
4x Reanimate
4x Animate Dead
4x Brainstorm
4x Pact of Negation
4x Mystical Tutor
4x Force of Will
4x Daze

Mana:

4x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
4x Underground Sea
3x Swamp
2x Island
4x Dark Ritual
4x Lotus Petal

SB:
?
?

Please proxy the deck and test it your self it gives you a better idea of what to put in it

[Illissius]

That looks decent. My only suggestions are a Gigapede, so you can Bury it if you draw one of your combo pieces but not Brainstorm, and swap them in your upkeep, and some sort of bounce spell you can find with Mystical. Further bounce (everyone and their mom will be siding Leylines against you), Counterbalance/Top, Confidants, and Negators seem like worthwhile sideboard options. As does a green splash for Tarmogoyfs and Deeds (and hardcasting Gigapede ;).

[Cait_Sith]

To clear up the substance issue:

Substance would wear off in the Cleanup step and Necromancy would go to the graveyard.

Hulk would go to the graveyard and its ability would trigger.

The ability triggers and goes on the stack DURING THE CLEANUP STEP. It then resolves normally. There is another End of Turn step, followed by another Cleanup step. The turn then ends.

[CleverPetriDish]

Yes. I would say this is very do-able. Intuition seems like it should be in here somewhere as a backup to Buried Alive. And you really want gigapede. I would go without the hulk.

[Happy Gilmore]

I tested the list with buried alive and found that a 2 card combo that needs 4 mana to win is better than a 3 card combo that needs 2 mana. WAY BETTER. it opened up so much space that i got to put in acceleration and more counters.
This deck wins just as fast and is more consistent. Sure there is no protean hulk combo anymore but it sure is a hell lot better.

Creatures:

1x Karmic Guide
1x Kiki-Jikki, Mirror Breaker
1x Sky Hussar

Spells:

4x Buried Alive
4x Reanimate
4x Animate Dead
4x Brainstorm
4x Pact of Negation
4x Mystical Tutor
4x Force of Will
4x Daze

Mana:

4x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
4x Underground Sea
3x Swamp
2x Island
4x Dark Ritual
4x Lotus Petal

SB:
?
?

Please proxy the deck and test it your self it gives you a better idea of what to put in it

I actually like the list quite a bit, but one thing you have to ask yourself is wheither it is better than Cephalid breakfast.

LDV is better than mystical the majority of the time, also you have way too many mana sources.

The other problem I'm seeing is no real way of winning if you happen to draw a combo piece (sans Brainstorm), that seems very weak imo.

[DURESSyou92]

-3 swamps
-2 islands
-1 animate dead

+2 gigapede
+1 intuition
+1 echoing truth
+1 bayou
+1 tundra

as for the sideboard

1x ray of revelation
2x extirpate
2x STPs
2x echoing truths
4x dark confidant
4x tarmogoyf/ Negator
?

[DURESSyou92]

and what im i supposed to get with intiution?

[diffy]

And what am I supposed to get with intiution?


If you have a reanimate spell in hand, Protean Hulk, Cabal Therapy, Gigapede is the right stack I guess.

If your opponent gives you the Therapy, you rip a troublesome card out of your opponents hand, reanimate the Hulk and sacrifise it to the Therapy (combo).
If your opponent gives you the Gigapede, you reanimate your Hulk and sacrifise it to the Therapy (combo).
If yout opponent gives you the Protean Hulk, you discard it to return the Gigapede in your next upkeep, reanimate the Hulk and sacrifise it to the Therapy (combo).

[Happy Gilmore]

Why would you bother with gigapede and fill up useful slots when all you have to do with intuition is get Hulk, Hulk, Therapy? This also gives the option of comboing off the same turn you cast intuition.

[DURESSyou92]

i was talking about the list with with no hulks and buried alive

[Happy Gilmore]

i was talking about the list with with no hulks and buried alive


So your saying to use Burried Alive to get 2x combo pieces and 1 Gigapede in the yard then discard the third piece. That is a good idea, but regardless its going to be divided up over two turns. I think its better to win in the same turn since it cuts down on the # of outs your opponent could have. In order to make the deck viable you need to find a reason why its better than Cephalid Breakfast. At this point I dont see how it could be. A 2 card combo for 3 mana is much better than a 3 card combo for 4-5. And the worst thing is that the deck has problems with the same kinds of hate that is brought in against Breakfast so it gets splash damage.

[DURESSyou92]

Its a 2 card combo (buried alive, ranimate) and your right breakfast is a better deck, although this deck seems just as fast becouse of the acceleration and has more counters(it doesntlooseto removal iether). I dont think that it is worthless to work on this deck, it is playable.

[MattH]

LDV is better than mystical the majority of the time, also you have way too many mana sources.
Considering that all the cards he wants to see are instants and sorceries, I don't agree with you here.

[DURESSyou92]

yea thats the reason im playing tutor though i sometimes wish i had i LDV ( when i just got something countered and have none of the pieces) int the original list with 3 cards it was better