B/G Rack

[Versus]

I'm a little hesitant to post in this forum as I don't think anything a returning player who's been absent more than 7 years from the scene could possibly bring to the table that hasn't already been thought of, play tested, and dismissed as non viable. I didn't see anything listed (via a search) that was similar to this, so I thought I'd give it a try.


Mana: 22

4 Baiyou
6 Swamp
4 Polluteed Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Dark Ritual

Creatures:

4 Hyppy
4 Confidant
4 Tarmagoyf

Disruption:

4 Funeral Charm
4 Duress
4 Hymn
4 Smallpox

Utility/Removal

3 Putrefy
3 Smother

Artifact

4 Rack

SB:

4 Engineered Plague
3 Pithing Needle
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Dystopia
2 Krosan Grip

Explainations:

Hyppy: Disruption/evasion that fits in with the overall concept of the deck and perhaps takes some of the heat off Confidant.

Confidant: Card advantage

Tarmagoyf: Heavy disruption including Fetches and Smallpox to get him to a 4/5 ASAP.

Funeral Charm: Not a Legacy caliber card I suppose. Better discard spells are available, but I chose it not just for it's dicard effect but for it's ability to answer a turn 1 Lackey.

Duress: I probably need no explaination here...

Hymn: See above.

Smallpox: I thought about this build while making a Standard version of this. In that build there are more "expendable" creatures to sac when poxing while a Tarmy or Confidant are in play. However I found it has been working well for me regardless.

Putrefy: I'm sure there is a better card than this as I didn't notice it being mentioned in the Green Death thread. Perhaps it's too slow? It seems to be soild to me.

Smother: Don't see this used much here, but I know some of you agree it's one of the most underated removal spells in Legacy. It should answer the majority of threats encountered in most top tier decks.

I'm not happy with only having 4 answers to Lacky, but otherwise the deck performs pretty well. However, I'm sure it could use some work. Perhaps cards I haven't found out about yet would help to make it optimal.

Like I said I have to assume this isn't viable in this format or someone would be playing it. I guess what I'm asking (if it isn't viable) is why?

[HdH_Cthulhu]

I played a t2 deck like this a few times and it wasnt that great... (dures was blackmail hymn was stupor and the 3 smother wehre 1 putrefy and 2 call of the heard.)
but in legacy you should play cabal therapy instead of the charm and replace the slow putrefy with a turn 1 awnser to lakey maby Gahstly demise...

[diffy]

But in legacy you should play Cabal Therapy instead of the Charm


I don't think Cabal Therapy is actually good in this deck seeing as how you only play 12 creatures (at least in the build in the opening post) and therefore have little possibility to Flash it back... Funeral Charm can at least kill all those pesky X/1s like Dark Confidant and Goblin Lackey or be used to push more damage through/make creatures trade etc.



And replace the slow Putrefy with a turn 1 awnswer to Lakey maybe Ghastly Demise...


I do entirely agree with this statement though... with that a huge amount of stuff that goes to the graveyard, Ghastly Demise is huge in here and it's cheap casting cost make up for the ability to handle a Vial/troublesome artifact of Putrefy...

You could try this change for starters:
-3 Putrefy
-1 Smother
+4 Ghastly Demise (http://magiccards.info/od/en/139.html)

If your Meta is full of Goblins/Aggro Decks you could also replace one more Smother with the cheaper Vendetta (http://magiccards.info/mm/en/170.html).

You could also try out some Nantuko Shade (http://magiccards.info/tr/en/74.html)s instead of some number of Small Poxen of which I am no particular fan if you don't have a way to abuse them (Flagstones of Trokair in Bw Stacks, no creatures in Loam control, Nihilit (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/72.html) in Pox...) because they just create straight forward Card Disadvantage if your opponent doesn't have a creature out.

I would suggest this to continue:
-2 Smallpox
+2 Nantuko Shade

You'd probably want one more Shade to reliably be able to see one every game but you don't want to play more than 3 because they just arn't particularily good in multiples.

On another note, you probably want more than 4 Green sources now that Landstill starts running Extirpates in addition to Wastelands... This problem is solved rather easily though:
-1 Swamp
+1 Overgrown Tomb

The Tomb gives you some additional Green source at little to no cost (just fetch for it at End of Turn) and you should be pretty happy at every opponent wasting their tempo on wasting your land which makes it only marginally weaker than a basic (of which you do continue to have enough of if that would start to matter).

[Galroth]

I've played around with just about every variant of black-aggro / discard / possible splash color there is. I love discard in particular, so I end up exactly where you are quite often. Are any of them viable... well maybe not tier 1 viable, but I have had moderate success with many of the variations.

As to your list... without any intention of being callous - I think it lacks direction. Are you playing discard? Are you playing control? Is this a variety of aggro-control with efficient beaters backed by discard for disruption?

As the list stands I think it's unclear which role you're trying to assume, and as such won't have a game plan which is focused enough to be competent in what it does. (It should be noted that I haven't tested this at all, so I could very well be wrong; just an initial observation.)

I think that once you do decide which role this deck is trying to assume, you will find there are threads which will help generate some ideas for you.

For control: there are several varieties or Rock like decks, some more aggro based, some with white splashes; then spinoffs with basically the same fundamental idea such as train-wreck or truffleshuffle.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=728
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3231
(There are a few other threads about... I just didn't want to link too many.)

For aggro-control: Hanni has put together a very nice list first derived from Homebrew. I'm sure there are a few others wandering out there, but I'd recommend his (even if it does include white... bleck!).
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6238

For discard w/ green splash: I'm pretty sure there are no particular threads dedicated to this. However, there have been several threads discussing discard in the past, which you may find useful.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5507

--
SMALLPOX - It's versatile, but it is generally not card advantage. I find it most useful to push a particular disruption strategy (especially land destruction) over the edge. If you need more discard effects, there are better. If you need creature removal, likewise, there are better. The only reason to run it really is versatility (oh... and it does mutiple effects at once... but it's still symmetrical.) With the small amount of creatures you're running, and the fact that you're running dual colors, smallpox may not be worth inclusion because of the times it will hurt you just as much as it will hurt them.

PUTREFY - Again, it's versatile, but the tradeoff this time it the mana cost. For destroying a problem creature, it is often just too little too slow. It cannot handle a turn 1 lackey. Against aggro in general, where your creature removal will be most needed, it is too expensive for just taking down a single creature. Infest would be better against a hoard of weenies. Infact, why not just run Pernicious Deed. If you intend to invest mana for versatility, this is the card you need.

SMOTHER - Is it better than Snuff Out? Probably the first question you should ask when running one and not the other. I would guess that Snuff Out is better here. I know that decks leaning towards a discard strategy need to conserve life. I was even once hesitant to run fetchlands in a mono-black build in order to support Sensei's Diving Top simply because of the life loss of cracking the fetchland (I know... a little silly). The point is I'm familiar with the dilemma. However, I think that Snuff Out is the superior choice here because one turn 2 you'll almost always want to play something besides Smother... same with turn 3 in fact, probably turn 4 as well. The tempo Snuff Out can generate is often worth the loss in life. This is generally why quick black decks choose Snuff Out as their first spot removal spell.

TOMBSTALKER - Very poor synergy with Goyf! On the otherhand, if you have either a Goyf out, or a Tombstalker out, you generally don't need the other. Tombstalker is an excellent win condition, and he eats opposing Goyfs for dinner. One of the large problems with Discard in general is the slow clock it puts the opponent on after it's disrupted their hand. As it stands, Goyf is your quickest Kill, followed by The Rack, Specter and Bob. That's not much trheat density, and outside of Goyf, the clock is not too quick. Consider Tombstalker as a 2-of. Shade has been another choice many opt to pursue.

[Versus]

HdH: The reasons Der_imaginäre_Freund stated are the main reasons I didn't include the Therapies. I wouldn't think they would be effective in a deck running fewer than 16 creatures.

I figured Putrefy was too slow, but liked the dual nature of it.

Der_imaginäre_Freund:


+4 Ghastly Demise

Another card I didn't even know of until right now. I told myself I wouldn't try to build any unknown decks without looking back at all the cards I missed.


+1 Overgrown Tomb

I thought about these, but was influenced by others decks not to use them. I'm usually one to go against the grain, but I haven't noticed ONE deck listed on these forums using the Ravnica shock lands. Are they not viable or do the fetches combined with duals make them unnecessary?

Galroth: I was going in the discard direction with this in order to make The Rack my primary wincon. Goyf (although a game winner on his own) was merely the secondary. However, I tried to tie it all together with Putrefy and Smallpox. I figured Poxing would add a land/creature/sorcery to the yard all in one turn would assure a quick 3/4 Goyf. 4/5 if the discarded card was an instant. Putrefy was my 5/6 for the artifact and creature removal if needed.

I thought about using Chrome Mox here for a possible turn 1 Pox, turn 2 Goyf. Had I been able to do this with a Ritual I would have nothing but the card and life on my end while my opponent suffered all 4 effects. However, that would be a perfect hand scenario and not too common.
Tombstalker would be great, but then I'd have to lose Bob. I don't wanna be drawing an 8cc with him!

The Standard version (I have it built) is so effective I figured it could only get better with better cards. I guess I wasn't taking into consideration WHAT I would be up against. There is no 1st turn Lackey in T2 so that's not an issue. Meta is still very hard for me to wrap my head around being out of scene for so long. I need to be more cognizant of that when building decks.

I'll have to rethink some of this then. Thanks for the links.

Thanks to all of you for the suggestions.

edit: I see now how I corrupted the idea behind the deck when I translated it to Legacy. I guess putting in better cards simply because they are better isn't always the right call. Here is my T2 deck:



Creature: 18

3 Ravenous Rats
4 Mindlash sliver
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Augur of skulls
4 Dark confidant

Discard/Removal: 18


3 Cry of Contrition
4 Funeral charm
4 Smallpox
4 Putrefy
3 Stupor

Artifact: 4

4 The Rack

Land: 20

3 Overgrown tomb
1 llanowar wastes
3 treetop village
8 swamp
3 Gemstone Mine
2 Golgari Rot Farm

I actually have more disruption AND creatures (with even more disruption) here than in the Legacy concept. Duress replacing Cry and Hymn replacing Stupor were the right move, but everything else is unfocused. By ommiting 6 "expendable" creatures smallpox has lost most of it's synergy. I figured including creatures like Augers, Rats, and Slivers in Legacy would be considered laughable, so I tried to make the cards more prestigious if that makes sense.