(Archive) [DTW] Aggro Loam [Archive] - Page 2

Phantom

03-09-2008, 09:57 PM

So I top 4ed last saturday at the final frog tournament (22 players) with the list I posted a few pages back. For some reason I've never been able to consistently beat thresh. Has anyone here ever been able to consistently beat thresh? Here's a build I've been thinking about:

I did much better against Thresh with just G/B. I found the matchup is really all about your removal and recursion. You need to stop them from going quick aggro on you, and not let CB stay, and you're good to go. The things you are missing from your list to make that happen are Deed and Discard. Having 2 explosives, 1 Shriekmaw, and a Therapy in the board isn't enough in my opinion unless your creature count gets higher. Explosives are great but susceptible to Grip, Needle, and often Spell Snare. Shriekmaw can only hit Goyf, and is surprisingly bad here. Therapy in the board is kinda crappy since you have no discard to see their hand, and don't really want to be saccing creatures against them sans perhaps Genesis.

I might be alone here, but I really don't like Chalice at all mainboard in Loam. You can fight Belcher with discard and all your Warrens answers (Grip postboard), and yard combo with discard and Leylines to complement Explosives and Deed. TES I just sort of accept as an auto loss. I can't imagine ever making it a good matchup, and I don't like what trying to does to the main and side-board.

Thoughtseize is a really good card in the matchup, as it grabs all the things you worry about (Enforcer, CB, StP) and allows Devastating Dreams to actually be relevant.

Anyway, your deck took fourth, so I can't really say you definitely need a change, but if you're going for a better Thresh matchup I'd try:

-4 Chalice
-1 Wasteland
-1 Shriekmaw
-1 Devastating Dreams

+4 Thoughtseize
+3 Deed

and probably cut the Trinis in the board for Chalices or E. Plagues or Wish targets or something.

Nihil Credo

03-09-2008, 10:19 PM

I really think that Confidant is a pre-Crusher CA-card.Now,when we have Countryside Crusher,I don't see much of a reason to run these,especially when most builds use just a minor Black splash.

Sort of agree. Dark Confidant is an absolute bombastic creature that wins games if unanswered (big if, even with Chalice). My problem with it is that Aggro Loam's core engine (Loam/Wish/lotsa lands/big guys) is powerful and consistent enough that, with regards to the remaining slots in the deck, you get more bang for your buck by playing good disruption and answers than by throwing in a second, independent draw engine.

Phantom

03-09-2008, 10:34 PM

Sort of agree. Dark Confidant is an absolute bombastic creature that wins games if unanswered (big if, even with Chalice). My problem with it is that Aggro Loam's core engine (Loam/Wish/lotsa lands/big guys) is powerful and consistent enough that, with regards to the remaining slots in the deck, you get more bang for your buck by playing good disruption and answers than by throwing in a second, independent draw engine.

Agreed on both accounts. I'll just add that DC is actually a liability sometimes dues to the decks slowish starts and highish curve. Plus, it's just often unnecessary in a deck that runs one of Legacy's best draw engines and can now filter that even more with Crusher's ability milling land and letting you know when not to dredge.

scrumdogg

03-10-2008, 03:16 AM

Agreed on both accounts. I'll just add that DC is actually a liability sometimes dues to the decks slowish starts and highish curve. Plus, it's just often unnecessary in a deck that runs one of Legacy's best draw engines and can now filter that even more with Crusher's ability milling land and letting you know when not to dredge.

Highish curve? It runs 0-3 & tops out at 3cc...with 26 land...that seems to me to be the anti-thesis of highish... Isn't the purpose of a good secondary engine to ensure that you have some sort of early engine going? DC also has the advantage of being a removal sucker, something Goyf & buddies surely appreciate. You also have leventy-billion ways to whack him yourself if you somehow suspect that him Lightning Bolting you next turn would be problematic.

I will start this with a caveat, I have not tested this deck enough to be authoratative, but I have never been disappointed with Genesis in a deck. Genesis works fine with the basic premise of this deck and I would (will, now that I have 3-4 Crushers) run both him and Volrath's Stronghold (black makes a lot of sense to me as a third color). Getting back your obscenely large beasties spells doom for many opponents & Genesis does something else Nostalgic Dreams doesn't (and everything it does with an added Eternal Witness), it swings for 4 & can block. Any opponent STPing a Genesis is either an incompetent or has the game so far in hand it isn't going to matter what you do.

With a black build, what would people add to the sideboard? In general or against an open meta? In one with lots of Dragon Stompy? Lots of Thresh? In one with lots of Affinity? Ichorid? In Worcester I would be looking to mainly stop DS & Affinity, with taking my chances on most everything else.

georgjorge

03-10-2008, 06:21 AM

Highish curve? It runs 0-3 & tops out at 3cc...with 26 land...that seems to me to be the anti-thesis of highish... Isn't the purpose of a good secondary engine to ensure that you have some sort of early engine going? DC also has the advantage of being a removal sucker, something Goyf & buddies surely appreciate. You also have leventy-billion ways to whack him yourself if you somehow suspect that him Lightning Bolting you next turn would be problematic.

Of course, you COULD as well play Duress instead of Confidant to get that removal...but I play Confidant to decrease my reliance on the graveyard. When playing against that Leyline of the Void second and third game, it is rather hard to get any kind of card advantage (not to mention big creatures) going, and I'd rather not play "draw Grip or die". I've won a number of games against Leyline in play by going first turn Duress/Seize for removal, second turn Confidant, and ride his card advantage to victory.

fetchesbasiclands

03-10-2008, 10:04 AM

With a black build, what would people add to the sideboard? In general or against an open meta? In one with lots of Dragon Stompy? Lots of Thresh? In one with lots of Affinity? Ichorid? In Worcester I would be looking to mainly stop DS & Affinity, with taking my chances on most everything else.
If you are expecting a lot of DS and Affinity,then a couple of Ancient Grudges along with Grips and Shattering Spree as a Wishtarget seems to be a decent choice without taking too much space.

Ewokslayer

03-10-2008, 10:57 AM

Shattering Spree as a Wishtarget seems to be a decent choice without taking too much space.

I have always enjoyed Seeds of Innocence as an anti-artifact wish target.
Though blowing up your own Mox Diamonds is less than great.
However, losing a few moxes is worth winning the game.

zulander

03-10-2008, 11:13 AM

I have always enjoyed Seeds of Innocence as an anti-artifact wish target.
Though blowing up your own Mox Diamonds is less than great.
However, losing a few moxes is worth winning the game.

Seeds is a horrible choice. It's like saying, "Hey Dragonstompy, wanna gain 8 life?!?!". Or asking affinity if they would like to triple their life total.

Ewokslayer

03-10-2008, 11:18 AM

Seeds is a horrible choice. It's like saying, "Hey Dragonstompy, wanna gain 8 life?!?!". Or asking affinity if they would like to triple their life total.

I have cast Seeds of Innocence about 6 times in tournaments against Affinity.

Amazingly, they are never happy to put their entire board into the graveyard regardless of the amount of life they have gained.

Making you win a few turns later doesn't change the fact that it does make you win.

Waikiki

03-10-2008, 11:36 AM

Also in this deck chalice is played aswell so I think shattering spree is the better choice in this deck.

Ewokslayer

03-10-2008, 11:41 AM

Also in this deck chalice is played aswell so I think shattering spree is the better choice in this deck.

That is a good point, I had forgot that most builds run chalice as an additional artifact.
Though against Affinity and Dragon Stompy are you going to be casting Chalice?
And with Chalice out, I assume at one, you are going to be countering a copy of Shattering Spree.
Shatterstorm is also an option, but it does cost 1 more and triple red might be too much of a stretch.

Waikiki

03-10-2008, 11:45 AM

I dont think the artifacts in dragon stompy are that problematic for you to spend a wipe all card in the board for it. Cause the only thing that sux is a chalice for 2 which also can't be answered anyways. (unless you draw explosives) All the other artifacts dont really bother you anyways.

Affinity. Hmm is this really played that much that you are willing to change the spree for a sweeper? Not me.

zulander

03-10-2008, 12:11 PM

Play shattering spree. Seriously, the testing has been done and it's the best artifact wish card.

asdljas

03-10-2008, 05:16 PM

Play shattering spree. Seriously, the testing has been done and it's the best artifact wish card.

I know that the extended versions of this deck play one Shattering Spree and one Shatterstorm in the sideboard. Shattering Spree is used in the more general matches, and Shatterstorm is specifically for Affinity.

In the legacy version, Shatterstorm provides two benefits:
1. It costs four. This deck doesn't have a problem with getting to four, and it dodges Chalice and Counterbalance (in case we wish for it in a threshold/fish match for some reason).
2. It's two red. We play to get to three red (Seismic Assault), and we can cast it under a blood-moon effect.

Ewokslayer

03-10-2008, 05:20 PM

1. It costs four. This deck doesn't have a problem with getting to four, and it dodges Chalice and Counterbalance (in case we wish for it in a threshold/fish match for some reason).
The replicate on Shattering Spree gets around both Chalice and Counterbalance at the cost of having the original Shattering Spree being countered as it is the only one that is "played"

Phantom

03-10-2008, 05:30 PM

The replicate on Shattering Spree gets around both Chalice and Counterbalance at the cost of having the original Shattering Spree being countered as it is the only one that is "played"

Not to mention that Spree can get around counters unlike Shatterstorm, and is amazingly scalable.

Seriously, can we stop having this conversation. Shattering Spree is roughly 5 times as good as other B Wish targets in any normal Legacy meta. You want to run a second artifact spell, feel free, but RUN SPREE FIRST.

asdljas

03-10-2008, 05:40 PM

Not to mention that Spree can get around counters unlike Shatterstorm, and is amazingly scalable.

Seriously, can we stop having this conversation. Shattering Spree is roughly 5 times as good as other B Wish targets in any normal Legacy meta. You want to run a second artifact spell, feel free, but RUN SPREE FIRST.

I agree: RUN SPREE FIRST. Like I said, in Extended I run both, but then Affinity is much more common there. BTW, I also run Hull Breach and four grips in the board, so maybe it's overkill.

On the Dark Confidant discussion: I have been recently running dark confidant in my sideboard. I find that I side out Devastating Dreams against decks with counterspells, and Dark Confidant is really good against those decks. Also, it makes me a little more aggro-ish in games 2 and 3, which is good against these types of decks. Confidant can also come in against decks that side Leyline of the Void, so that you are less susceptible to the hate.

noobslayer

03-10-2008, 11:52 PM

BG list I came up with while sitting in class:

4 Tombstalker
4 Terravore
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy

4 Life from the Loam

3 Engineered Explosives

4 Mox Diamond

4 Bayou
4 Wasteland
3 Tranquil Thicket
3 Barren Moor
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Tomb of Urami
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Forest
1 Swamp

Sideboard:
3 Krosan Grip
3 Choke
4 Leyline of the Void (maybe Extirpate?)
4 Engineered Plague
1 Darkblast

HBspulse

03-11-2008, 06:20 AM

Sigh...sorry noobslayer, it looks like absolute crap. Making a synergic deck dissynergic. You usually make better posts.

Tombstalker : are you going to remove cards in your graveyard to make tarmogoyf or terravore smaller? Or remove lands which you can loam? I suppose not.

Cabal therapy : you DON'T want to flashback it, running only 16 creatures.

Some advice for this topic :
- make separate loam-threads depending on the colors played (white/red/black or not). People have discussions next to eachother, which results in flamewars which colors are best.
- DON'T post decklists unless you got some decent tournament result with it. The 37th untested list ( hi guys, what do you think of this list? ) just hampers the reading and gets quite annoying.
- People don't read all the posts anymore, so they ask the same questions over and over. Shattering Spree IS the best artifact removal.

Conclusion : this thread needs some cleaning. A small discussion which variant gets what name, could be more relevant. (cfr. control loam, aggro loam, ...)

noobslayer

03-11-2008, 07:39 AM

I didn't make it to be a ground breaking post, I did it hoping other people would have some ideas with the color archtype.

To address a few of your points, which are all valid concerns by the way:

1. From my experience, the deck only needs to lands one beater to go the distance. Stalker can control the size of Goyfs, and can clear out cards you used already or dredged. And even if there are some extra things, the deck doesn't have issues generating enough mana when you aren't delving for full. (If it's a huge issue though, you could probably run Gigapede or Scarab here.)

2. In conjunction with the above post, you really only need one threat. I'm running Volrath's Stronghold as well.

Like I said, hopefully this can get people thinking in other directions. I still believe the red lists are better as Seismic Assault is the bees knees, and so are Countryside Crusher and Devastating Dreams. There are other options to be explored; we need to keep these things in mind, and this qualifies as aggro loam in my eyes.

fetchesbasiclands

03-11-2008, 10:16 AM

I agree: RUN SPREE FIRST. Like I said, in Extended I run both, but then Affinity is much more common there. BTW, I also run Hull Breach and four grips in the board, so maybe it's overkill.

On the Dark Confidant discussion: I have been recently running dark confidant in my sideboard. I find that I side out Devastating Dreams against decks with counterspells, and Dark Confidant is really good against those decks. Also, it makes me a little more aggro-ish in games 2 and 3, which is good against these types of decks. Confidant can also come in against decks that side Leyline of the Void, so that you are less susceptible to the hate.
Could you share your SB?If you run Hull Breach,Shatterstorm and Spree,then there are two too many,guess which?Also,Confidant can be good against control,but a waste of SB space in my opinion.I mean,you should probably dedicate as much of your Board to combat combo as possible.Control should be a manageable MU anyhow.

HBspulse

03-11-2008, 10:56 AM

As I see it, aggro loam has the following bad matchups :

- Enchantress :
You should try it, this is a very very hard match-up. Devastating dreams, Engineered explosives or wish -> reverent silence could win you a single game, but without a godhand you will not make it. If you don't play red, you don't even stand a chance. I cannot say what could make this matchup better.

- Ichorid :
I hate to dedicate 3-4 slots to a single matchup, which is not commonly played. This is one of those cases. In our recent tournament Ichorid won, beating one loamdeck playing 4 crypt and one loamdeck playing 4 leyline sb. So what's the use...Extirpate isn't very good in other matchups.

- Goyfsligh :
Only an early chalice@1 and serious pressure can save you here. Bad matchup still. Price of progress hurts a lot.

- Tendrills of agony combo (iggy pop/TES)
Chalice helps. I especially not mention belcher, as your matchup is not as bad as I expected. A deck going for a slow turn 3-4 tendrills kill is harder to stop however.

In our meta these are all niche-decks. Not widely played, but nonetheless present. Very annoying.

Do you guys have similar experiences with these matchups? Are there other decks that qualify for this?

zulander

03-11-2008, 11:05 AM

1. From my experience, the deck only needs to lands one beater to go the distance. Stalker can control the size of Goyfs, and can clear out cards you used already or dredged. And even if there are some extra things, the deck doesn't have issues generating enough mana when you aren't delving for full. (If it's a huge issue though, you could probably run Gigapede or Scarab here.)
2. In conjunction with the above post, you really only need one threat. I'm running Volrath's Stronghold as well.

1. People play removal. Thinking that landing one beater will go the distance is absurd.

2. Reply #1 + you're only playing 1 stronghold as well. I've thought before that playing a 1 of stronghold would be enough to recur beaters, but in reality you can't rely on a 1 of. Also, you deck has no removal save 3 EE's, how do you expect to get through your opponents creatures? Or just hope they don't play any?

noobslayer

03-11-2008, 03:19 PM

Haha. People are taking the list too seriously.

I understand your points though Zulander. Although running more than 1 Volrath's Stronghold usually isn't the right call.

@ 1 Beater. You have plenty of ways to safe guard that creature with discard, but still, you are right, nothing here has any sort of built in protection.

Phantom

03-11-2008, 04:01 PM

If you're looking for a solid G/B Loam build, look no further. I already did all the tweaking and testing and came up with a solid base to work from:

// Lands
1 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [ON] Barren Moor
2 [TSP] Swamp (1)
4 [b] Bayou
2 [RAV] Forest (2)
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [ON] Tranquil Thicket
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
2 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [JU] Genesis
3 [TO] Nantuko Shade
3 [OD] Wild Mongrel
4 [OD] Terravore
1 [LRW] Shriekmaw

// Spells
2 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [US] Duress
4 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague

http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8533
for full thread.

Basically, I would go G/B if the meta were full of control, aggro control, and combo. The colors do suffer against pure aggro, especially Goblins.

SnakeEater

03-11-2008, 04:47 PM

Conclusion : this thread needs some cleaning. A small discussion which variant gets what name, could be more relevant. (cfr. control loam, aggro loam, ...)
I agree with you. The two or three builds which are created at the moment are very different. I think each one has its own pros and cons. But they shouldn't be discussed in one thread. That is too confusing.

- Enchantress
I have no expereience with that matchup.

- Ichorid :
You are right. I tested some games vs friends because there are some players in our region who play Dredge decks. This matchup is very hard. I cannot imagine that I won a game turn one against them. After boarding Leyline gives you some time to find a good answer with Explosives or DDreams for the tokens. Ichorids can be blocked. But be aware of flying Moebas and hardcast Imps. DDreams helps here too.

Goyfsligh :
I agree. But I have not much experience with them.

- Tendrills of agony combo (iggy pop/TES)
Chalice@1 or Chalice@0 are very good against them. Both are game. I think Belcher or other EtW combo are not that problem. Tokens can be handled very good with Explosive or DDreams. If you have Thoughtseize in your SB, it helps here.

Do you guys have similar experiences with these matchups? Are there other decks that qualify for this?
In my eyes Ichorid is the hardest matchup of the above listed.

I don't remember any other matchup which is too hard. Be aware of Deeds, Extirpates and Counterbalances. They are very bad. Play sophisticated and don't make silly mistakes. When you know what your opponent is playing, you can adjust your play to his deck. Try to play Daze safe, fetch Stifle safe, try to play Explosives around Chalices or Counterbalances or Spell Snares. Often an early Crusher will win games automatically. Same with Assault + Loam or Wasteland + Loam.

technogeek5000

03-14-2008, 12:20 PM

Good thing that this deck got DTW status. I realy think that it is extremely strong and is a great choice in the current meta. Something i wanted to present here is a card i foun for the board in black splash decks.Decompose (http://cardkingdom.com/card_viewer.php?sid=598884470&pid=54127). I noticed that preboard that this deck autoloses to anyform of grave combo. Obviously it doesnt do anything to breakfast but ichorid will roll this deck over with frightening ease. I was looking for a wish target that hates oin graves and this is actually the most efficient black target their is. White has morningtide but that also hits our yard which is why im hesitant to run it. What does everyone think.

Waikiki

03-14-2008, 12:34 PM

I think the best answer is primal command or the extirpate's big brother (can't remember the name) removing 3 cards in a graveyard from the game isn't going to beat ichorid imo.

Berzerked

03-14-2008, 01:38 PM

From What I can tell, here are the lists seeing most play:

R/g with Crusher Chalice/DD/EE

4 Countryside Crusher
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Terravore

4 Burning Wish
2 Devastating Dreams
3 Life from the Loam

3 Seismic Assault

4 Chalice of the Void
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Mox Diamond

1 Badlands
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Forest
4 Forgotten Cave
4 Mountain
4 Taiga
3 Tranquil Thicket
3 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills

R/g weenies with Genesis/Bolt

1 Genesis
4 Kird Ape
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Terravore
3 Wild Mongrel

4 Lightning Bolt

4 Life from the Loam

3 Seismic Assault

4 Mox Diamond

1 Barbarian Ring
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Forest
4 Forgotten Cave
1 Mountain
4 Taiga
2 Tranquil Thicket
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills

R/g/b with Confidant/Witness/Deed

4 Dark Confidant
2 Eternal Witness
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Terravore
3 Wild Mongrel

4 Burning Wish
3 Life from the Loam
4 Thoughtseize

2 Pernicious Deed

4 Mox Diamond

1 Badlands
1 Barbarian Ring
3 Bayou
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
2 Forgotten Cave
3 Taiga
4 Tranquil Thicket
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills

R/g/b with Confidant/Terminate/Unearth

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Terravore
3 Wild Mongrel

4 Terminate

4 Burning Wish
3 Life from the Loam
2 Unearth

2 Seismic Assault

4 Mox Diamond

1 Badlands
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
3 Forgotten Cave
1 Mountain
3 Taiga
3 Tranquil Thicket
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills

Haven't seen a lot of white, but I suppose it offers StP as removal, and Teeg over Confidant.

Nihil Credo

03-14-2008, 01:48 PM

Something i wanted to present here is a card i foun for the board in black splash decks.Decompose (http://cardkingdom.com/card_viewer.php?sid=598884470&pid=54127). I noticed that preboard that this deck autoloses to anyform of grave combo. Obviously it doesnt do anything to breakfast but ichorid will roll this deck over with frightening ease. I was looking for a wish target that hates oin graves and this is actually the most efficient black target their is.
Yeah, I've been thinking about the Ichorid MU too. It's nigh-impossible G1 (all you've got is a fast clock, EE, and turn 1 Chalices), and 4 Leylines in G2 only make it 'tough' rather than impossible - enough so that I've actually been wondering whether they're the best use for those precious SB slots.

I'm not sure how much this should worry us. I mean, Thresh also has a bad Ichorid matchup, yet it's still the #1 deck.

Anyway, if we're looking at Wish targets for GY hate (which is not a bad start either way), then Dwell on the Past is much better than Decompose - half the cost in a friendlier colour, and it shuffles four cards rather than RFG three.

darkmindtone

03-31-2008, 06:52 AM

While I don't play this format too much (mostly Standard and Extended), I picked up this list for the recent VA Dual Land draft and it did pretty well for me (3rd).

4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire (probably should find room for one more of these)
3 Taiga
3 Forgotten Cave
3 Tranquil Thicket
2 Forest
2 Mountain
1 Bayou
1 Badlands

4 Terravore
4 Countryside Crusher
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Burning Wish
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
3 Life From the Loam
3 Seismic Assault
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Devastating Dreams

SB:
3 Krosan Grip
3 Thoughtseize
3 Pyroclasm
2 Devastating Dreams
1 Reverent Silence
1 Shattering Spree
1 Deathmark
1 Life From the Loam

It worked out pretty well for me. Surprisingly I played against Counterbalance decks four times during the day, and somehow won all of them. It was a combination of me sacking wins from stupid turn one Moxen/Loam/Waste or having Chalice for one turn one against Threshold on the play game one and the fact that a lot of the Legacy Ux decks don't seem to run a heavy amount of 3cc cards unlike their Extended counterparts. Of course the Enchantress deck thoroughly smashed me in the Semifinals, which seems like an awful match for me.

-Kenny Mayer

noobslayer

03-31-2008, 07:51 AM

Can you talk about some of your wish targets? I've never been a huge advocate of Burning Wish, so I'm wondering what your experience was and how dead some targets were.

darkmindtone

03-31-2008, 08:26 AM

The basic gist is that having seven Life From the Loams is the reason this deck is as consistent as it is. Also doubling as an answer to most problems makes it definitely worth the slots it takes up. I don't think the sideboard was optimal (pyroclasms are probably unnecessary, but I wanted to make sure I had an insane Goblin matchup (the deck is already very good against them) because I suspected a lot to show up even though that wasn't true at all). I do need Graveyard hate, but the matchup versus Dredge is so god awful that I don't know how much four slots can help. If I found a way to make 6-7 slots in the board for graveyard hate, we'd have something, but I don't think that's possible.

shamen

04-07-2008, 09:58 AM

Zach Tartell

04-07-2008, 10:08 AM

It is usually set for 0 or one, in my experience - Just to stop Storm combo (and 1 against Threshold), because that's a pretty poor match for you.

godryk

04-07-2008, 10:15 AM

Chalice is also great at dealing with Swords to Plowshares and Extirpate that are two widely played cards that hurt this deck a lot.

Nihil Credo

04-07-2008, 01:18 PM

It also has a chance at stopping Vial, which is a pain in the ass (and part of the reason for the Explosives), and postboard Tormod's Crypt, which is a mere annoyance but still an annoyance.

SnakeEater

04-08-2008, 06:10 AM

Last sunday I went to the monthly tournament in Iserlohn (Germany) again. I piloted the deck to the 15th place (4 : 2 : 0) out of 53 players. I played against Lanstill (0 : 2), Pikula (1 : 2), Mirror (2 : 0), Reanimator (2 : 0), Dragon Stompy (2 : 1) and Belcher (2 : 1). For me not so succesfull. But there were nearly 10 other AggroLoam decks.

Changes I made in my list:
-1 Bloodstained Mire
-1 Forgotten Cave
+1 Volrath's Stronghold
+1 Wasteland
Sideboard:
1x Life from the Loam
1x Reverent Silence
1x Shattering Spree
1x Devastating Dreams
1x Last Rites
3x Thoughtseize
4x Leyline of the Void
3x Krosan Grip

Recently a player asked me if it is worth playing Brawn in this deck. I did not really know what to answer him. The only good situation I can imagine is when your opponent controls a regenerating threat.

What do you think?

Nihil Credo

04-08-2008, 11:07 AM

Last sunday I went to the monthly tournament in Iserlohn (Germany) again. I piloted the deck to the 15th place (4 : 2 : 0) out of 53 players. I played against Lanstill (0 : 2), Pikula (1 : 2), Mirror (2 : 0), Reanimator (2 : 0), Dragon Stompy (2 : 1) and Belcher (2 : 1). For me not so succesfull. But there were nearly 10 other AggroLoam decks.

Great :) (both your result and the 10 Loam players)

How did you win Game 1 against Reanimator? A lucky Wasteland draw, or maybe he fizzled? It looks like an awful matchup to me.

Changes I made in my list:
-1 Bloodstained Mire
-1 Forgotten Cave
+1 Volrath's Stronghold
+1 Wasteland

Well, sacrificing colours for abilities, there's not much to say here. Only playing the list a lot can show if the price is worth it, I think.

Recently a player asked me if it is worth playing Brawn in this deck. I did not really know what to answer him. The only good situation I can imagine is when your opponent controls a regenerating threat.

Terravore already has trample, and you can tap regenerators by 'destroying' them pre-combat (with Assault or Explosives), so Brawn adds very little to the deck.

koba

04-08-2008, 11:07 AM

hello i'm not to this forum
bud i googled agro loam and so i clicked on this thread.
this sunday i'm compeating in a legacy tornament and I was going for agro loam.
now i was wondering why do you use main deck challice? isn't that bodering your play? you can only put it on 1 ... i asume

I'm a new loam player and don't have mutch expirence in tornaments. so pls don't kill me for asking ;)

greatings

Actually, chalice is not the auto-include it is for decks like dragon/faery stompy for two reasons:
a. You can’t really rely on casting it for one counter turn one.
b. You can’t set it up for two without hurting yourself too much.
Nonetheless, you could well argue that chalice is powerful enough to maindeck it anyway. “Only” putting it to one can be game-breaking.
It is a metagame choice, I think. If you don’t like it, you can replace it with dark confidant or terminate and put chalice in the sideboard. Both cards are fine replacements and your deck should perform well either way.

shamen

04-08-2008, 02:58 PM

Wel dear ppl thx for the advice so this is the decklist i'm runnig

if you will you may comment it :) i hope to do well

== lands ==
3 tranquil thicket
2 bloodstaind mire
3 forgotten cave
4 taiga
4 wasteland
4 wooded foothills
2 plateau
1 volrath's stronghold
1 badland
1 savannah

== creature's ==
4 terravore
2 eternal witness
4 countryside crusher
4 tarmogoyf

== spells ==
4 mox diamond
2 seismic assault
3 life from the loam
4 buring wish
2 engineered explosives
4 stp (do you think i would replace the 4 stp's to 4 challice's?)
2 fire storm ( i like it better then devastating dreams, i played the dreams main deck bud in 8/10 time's i hurt me when i discarded card's at random i lost card's that i wanne keep, so whit this card i can choise what card i can discard, i can choise target's, it is an instant an cost 1 R the only downside is that it dousn't destroy lands... bud i can live with that.)

== Sideboard ==
1 life from the loam
1 devestating dreams
1 hull breach
1 reverent silence
1 shattering spree
4 tormod's crypt

1 armageddon
3 krosan grip
1 pyroclasm
1 unearth (not sure about that 1)

that is the list i'm playtesting for now. if you have any comment on any of the cards or questions about it i'm gladly to answer them !!

greatings

technogeek5000

04-08-2008, 03:01 PM

I was trying out the blue splash in the deck and i was wondering what were some sideboard options that the color presents us that werent there before. My current board looks like this

4 Leyline
2 Crypt
1 Life from the loam
1 devastating dreams
1 shattering spree
1 reverant silence
1 dwell on the past (yes, yes, god yes. I <3 this card soooooo much)

raharu

04-08-2008, 08:27 PM

Why don't you run Regrowth instead of Dwell on the Past? Is it for the decking problem (which I don't believe would help) or just to reuse certaint cards from the GY (which Regrowth would do better/ more accurately, perse)?

technogeek5000

04-08-2008, 10:21 PM

umm, its not for recurring my spells or to prevent decking myself... Its so that i have a wishable piece of graveyard hate.

BreathWeapon

04-12-2008, 09:59 AM

Has Gamble been removed from Aggro Loam altogether? I was a fan of the 4 Gamble and 1 Life from the Loam vs 3 Life from the Loam in the MD and reducing the number of cycling/off color lands. Also is no one using Sensei's Divining Top for a one drop, or has Chalice of the Void just consumed the 1cc slots altogether?

noobslayer

04-12-2008, 06:29 PM

Gamble is... I dunno, I've never even wanted to run it. I just run multiple copies to ensure redundancy. Top doesn't seem bad though, because by removing Chalice you really only hurt Threshold. Sure you weaken combo, but that match-up was terrible to begin with.

Pulp_Fiction

04-25-2008, 12:07 AM

I can't believe I haven't picked up this deck before now; it is ridiculously consistent and resilient. Recently at my local tournament I took this build to a top 4 split out of 24 people:

4x Tarmogoyf
4x Countryside Crusher
3x Terravore
1x Eternal Witness

4x Chalice of the Void
3x Seismic Assault
2x Engineered Explosives
2x Devastating Dreams
4x Mox Diamond
3x Life from the Loam
4x Burning Wish

1x Badlands
3x Taiga
4x Wasteland
3x Tranquil Thicket
4x Wooded Foothills
3x Forgotten Cave
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Barbarian Ring
3x Forest
2x Mountain

Sideboard
1x Life from the Loam
1x Devastating Dreams
1x Reverent Silence
1x Meltdown
1x Chainer's Edict
1x Hull Breach
3x Sphere of Resistance
3x Cranial Extraction
3x Krosan Grip

I think my build is fairly standard except for the sideboard. No one wants a tourney report but I played against Life, Elves, Burn, and intentionally drew with Thresh into a top 8 then played against Mono B Rack and won VIA Chalice of the Void and drew in the top 4.

My meta is very random, it consists of literally everything from Affinity to Goyf Sligh to Thresh to Survival to anything stompy to Belcher and High Tide. That is the reason for the Sphere of Resistance in the SB, so as this deck can fight against storm combo (making Cloud of Faeries cost more is crucial) as well as giving 15-17 land stompy.dec a very hard time. Chalice in the main was crucial to literally everything. It shut down Burn, Elves, Rack and Life. I think Chalice has to be in this deck, plus I hear it is pretty good against Thresh :) This deck seems to have all of the answers but it really struggles against early Tombstalkers. Tombstalker around turns 6 and beyond are generally easy to deal with, but in the early game it is a little tough especially after a few Hymns! Honestly this deck doesn't have any just awful matchups aside from straight up Burn and actually has a 50/50 matchup with SI and Belcher g1 and it probably goes to 60/70-40/30 after the Spheres come in.

I know I have some weird sideboard choices and most people are going to say Cranial Extraction is to slow but test it out, it really isn't to slow in the matchups in which is shines (Eva Green, Thresh, High Tide, Lands!). Now there is a lot of Affinity in my meta so thats why I play Meltdown over Shattering Spree, I would rather just cast Meltdown and clear their board than destroy 3-4 artifacts. Reverent Silence was key in the SB. As I am sure everyone who has ever played this deck knows Leyline of the Void Shuts this deck down hard. One game my opponent opened with Leyline and on turn 2 they gained 6 life VIA Burning Wish for Silence and I could safely play Loam again! I read a while back someone was a naysayer about Burning Wish, that card and Chalice were MVP all day. The Leyline of the Void was played against me by Elves! As I am sure most people would have boarded in a Krosan Grip or 2 for Crypt but because I had Burning Wish that element of suprise was quickly answered! And then a second one was hardcast on turn 4!!!!!! I actually played through it and got a few 3/4 Goys into play but I drew into Burning Wish for Hull Breach and just won in the next few turns. I am positive Burning Wish has to be in this deck!

Regarding the creatures, Terravore is not as good in this deck as I had hoped. Usually when you drop him he is around a 4/4 to a 6/6 (pre-Devastating Dreams) and I was always wishing it was Crusher instead of him. I think 3x Terravore is the right number in this deck because you never want him early game but they rock later on. Truthfully you could probably go down to 2x Terravore and add in the 4th Seismic Assault (I was always happy to see Seismic Assault) or a second Eternal Witness. I love Terravore in this deck and he should be played in literally every build but what does everyone think about the proper number of Terravores?

Waikiki

04-25-2008, 01:06 AM

Against what will the explosives be mostly used? cause my main problems are tombstalkers. that are able to race me from time to time.

Has terminate been tried in that slot? or some other form of removal.

Pulp_Fiction

04-25-2008, 01:49 AM

Terminate is really good in that slot, it just depends on what you are expecting. I love the versatility of the Explosives, removes Aether Vial when setting up for Devastating Dreams and it deals with Goblin tokens very well and the random Mother of Runes or protection from x dudes, weird shit like that which can be troublesome. And in this deck, I found that it is very easy to put 3-4 sunburst counters on it if you really needed to at almost any time. But I really like it because this deck can have problems with Eva Green and Explosives at 2 holds off their Goyfs and Nantuko Shades which is important since you can just drop it and not worry about hand destruction.

But Explosives would probably be considered the "weakest" card in this deck if there was to be a weak card. Terminate would be good in that slot and another great card to consider is Putrefy. I know it costs 1BG but it is a lot more versatile than Terminate. I love Explosives and (in my general build) I would not play anything else at this time in that slot. Test Putrefy first and see if you like it more than Terminate, I am curious to see which is a better fit for the deck. Also, what is your build?

Waikiki

04-25-2008, 07:57 AM

My list is almost exact the same as yours:

4x Tarmogoyf
4x Countryside Crusher
3x Terravore

4x Chalice of the Void
3x Seismic Assault
3x Engineered Explosives/Terminate/Putrefy
2x Devastating Dreams
4x Mox Diamond
3x Life from the Loam
4x Burning Wish

1x Badlands
4x Taiga
3x Wasteland
3x Tranquil Thicket
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Forgotten Cave
1x Bloodstained Mire
3x Forest
3x Mountain

kabal

04-25-2008, 08:08 AM

cause my main problems are tombstalkers. that are able to race me from time to time.

Wish for Wallop (http://magiccards.info/in/en/223.html). A tad narrow, but then you don't have to fill up your MB with creature removal like terminate. Considering your creatures should be bigger than your opponents.

KillemallCFH

04-25-2008, 08:19 AM

Wish for Wallop (http://magiccards.info/in/en/223.html). A tad narrow, but then you don't have to fill up your MB with creature removal like terminate. Considering your creatures should be bigger than your opponents.If you want to go slightly less narrow, Wing Snare works as well and can also hit things like Enforcer and Angel.

kabal

04-25-2008, 08:35 AM

If you want to go slightly less narrow, Wing Snare works as well and can also hit things like Enforcer and Angel.

Exactly.... totally forgot about it. Interesting that I even thought of Wallop, but i remembered something about a tree monster and destroying flying black creatures.

georgjorge

04-25-2008, 11:37 AM

I'm not sure, but I think Deed is better than Explosives here. Most of the time, they do the same thing, Deed always takes Diamond with it, but especially against Stompy decks, Stax, Enchantress, and Goblins, Deed is a MVP where Explosives is merely decent. It also makes getting rid of Leylines easier. Since the REALLY good creatures we have cost three, I usually still get good leverage out of Deed...

Also, no Blood Moons in the sideboards ? I play two for Landstill, but it might be I just hate that deck too much, since the matchup is already decent without special slots devoted to it...

kabal

04-25-2008, 11:40 AM

Deed always takes Diamond and CotV with it

Fixed.

quietmage

04-27-2008, 01:15 AM

how many seismic assaults are you guys running? I have noticed that they are really strong but having more than one a game is really redundant. you also tend to dig through alot of your deck but loaming into one is a pain.

Muradin

04-27-2008, 05:02 AM

Actually I would play Explosives in a RG only Aggro Loam together with Chalice. (for the reasons you'd hurt yourself with a deed pretty hard in those builds)
In a black splashed list I would run thoughtseize with deed.
Blood Moon as a sideboard card seems to be really important in legacy at the moment, but I'd only run it if the maindeck is already tuned to work well under Blood Moon (By being RG only and running multiple Forests)

technogeek5000

04-27-2008, 02:13 PM

from Cairo

04-27-2008, 03:33 PM

I have chanced upon a revelation: Seismic assault sucks. its 3 red which, while not relatively hard to get, is dead to often. It costs three mana which makes it inferior to everything else in the 3 slot. Devastating dreams clears the board better and as a win condition, it sucks even with loam. Requiring thatyou invest 3-5 mana a turn for 6-10 damage(vore and crusher do the same thing better). I have been slowly taking them out in my list for things like shriekmaw and Tabernacle (really good, and helps that I own one) and I have not looked back.

Seismic Assault is much harder to answer mainboard than creature threats, most decks pack some sort of out to creatures- Swords, Weirdings, Shriekmaws, board sweepers, etc, Enchantment hate is rarely mainboarded, only things that come to mind are EE@3, Deed, and Pithing Needle, but they are far less prevalent than creature hate. With an active Loam, Seismic Assault generally ends the game within 2 turns.

Pulp_Fiction

04-27-2008, 03:51 PM

@ Pulp_Fiction: How does your build work for You? Are You satisfied without Confidant? But I really need some way to fight Withered Wretch, Atog, Ravi, etc. With Needle costing 1, it does not look so sexy. Therefore I thought about Cursed Totem or Damping Matrix (ahem...). Matrix even stops Vials, Platings, Jittes...

I have never found it a problem without Dark Confidant, I mean literally every non-land card in the deck is a threat so it generally isn't a problem getting a creature/threat into play and the Loam engine generates so much card advantage I haven't found him necessary. Now in the very aggressive builds with Goyfs, Crushers, Terravores, and Wild Mongrel, Dark Confidant should definitely be in those. But if you like it and it works, keep playing it, but I haven't missed not having Dark Confidant.

Damping Matrix seems to cover all of the bases and seems like a pretty good idea. If you wanted something for Affinity the best answer is Null Rod, it just shuts them down but it doesn't answer Withered Wretch. Pithing Needle would be good against Affinity since you would take out Chalice against them anyway but that seems to one sided to put Needle in the board just in the cases where you are boarding out Chalice. It seems like Damping Matrix in your SB answers everything but if you are really scared of Withered Wretch you could run 1x Firebolt in the wish board.

Seismic Assault is amazing in this deck. I would not run more than 3 because of its redundancy in multiples but when it resolves and you have Loam it makes for a very short clock. But even without Loam it is still a strong card because half of this deck is land :) I am not sure why you would rather run Shriekmaw than a harder to remove enchantment which will kill more. This deck already has a good Goblins match and part of that is because of Seismic Assault, it kills every creature in their deck by itself. Now Tabernacle is not a bad idea and probably deserves testing but it seems like you are taking the focus of the deck away from aggro and making it more control/lock style. The reason I say this is you are taking out threats and putting in answers which seems almost counter-productive to what Aggro Loam is trying to do.

I have been testing this deck's Ichorid matchup and it is awful. I don't run Leyline of the Void in the SB because I can't think of any other match in which Leyline will have an effect that really matters. What matchups does Leyline of the Void improve aside from Ichorid? I would really have a problem devoting 4x SB slots to just 1 matchup.

georgjorge

04-27-2008, 06:15 PM

I have chanced upon a revelation: Seismic assault sucks.

While it doesn't entirely suck, I second that there are better cards for that slot. People argue that it is good with Loam going, but if I have Loam going for some time, I usually win...except when

a) Leyline/Extirpate appears
b) they out-tempo me

Assault can help against b), but the fact that it NEEDS Loam to be good makes it clunky (it's not completely useless without, but I like to cycle my cycle lands, and then you won't have many left to pitch)...for example, second turn Burning Wish, third turn Assault, means you can start really affecting the board on turn four. Probably too late against numerous decks. And there are always those instances when you don't draw into Loam (and need your Burning Wish to get rid of Leyline, or something...). I just prefer using only a minimum of cards that need Loam to be good.

@Pulp_Fiction: So you don't run any graveyard removal at all ? That would be brave...it's useful for the mirror, Cephalid Breakfast, Loam control decks, Survival decks, and IGG storm combo (with most of those being pretty hard to win without it).

Also, has anyone tried substituting Wheel of Sun and Moon for Leyline ? It doesn't come free, but is easier to cast if cycled into, and can protect yourself against that PainterGrindstone combo or Solidarity in a pinch...

technogeek5000

04-27-2008, 06:27 PM

wheel of sun and moon doesnt make the servant's stone lose. As long as they leave three mana open they can repeat it infinitely and make the game a draw.

Pulp_Fiction

04-27-2008, 10:48 PM

@Pulp_Fiction: So you don't run any graveyard removal at all ? That would be brave...it's useful for the mirror, Cephalid Breakfast, Loam control decks, Survival decks, and IGG storm combo (with most of those being pretty hard to win without it).

From what I have seen Cranial Extraction is just better in all the matchups besides Ichorid. Breakfast is non-existent in my meta (I was the only one who played it for a little while :) and a Chalice for 1 is a BITCH to deal with; against something like 42 Land you just Extract Loam and that is the pretty much the main fight right there. Against Survival (people do play it in my meta) this is what will happen: Leyline in play, cast Survival, activate it getting Harmonic Sliver ...... it just seems like Extracting their Goyfs or something along those lines is just just stronger than temporarily delaying them with Leyline which becomes a dead draw later on and I personally play SI which is IGG storm combo and Leyline does nothing against it. It just gets bounced EOT then they go off (TES or Fetchland Tendrils), or (in the case of SI) they tutor out Belcher and kill you or just do a turn 1 Empty for like 12-16 thus forcing you to have Dreams or Wish. Chalice for 0 or 1 is a million times better against storm combo. I guess my reasoning for playing Cranial Extraction in the spot of Leyline of the Void is it is a permanent answer as opposed to an almost tempo spell.

technogeek5000

04-27-2008, 11:10 PM

Cranial extraction is fine, but theres really no reason to exclude grave hate as the only decks that this deck cannot beat at all preboard are grave combo decks. I run 4 leylines +2 tormod's crypt so that I have a fighting chance against ichorid (now all I have to do is make sure I dont Reverant silence away my own leyline and ill be fine :wink:) and even then that sometimes isnt enough. I have even been running dwell on the past to some success as a wishable piece of grave hate.

Pulp_Fiction

04-28-2008, 03:41 AM

Honestly, the only combo hate that really applies to the match is Chalice of the Void. I see what you mean about Leyline but I can not put 4x cards in the SB just for 1x matchup. I just can't do it. Now as for stopping storm combo, I run 3x Sphere of Resistance which basically covers all of the bases regarding combo, spring tide, TES, belcher, SI, all of those are greatly affected by Sphere of Resistance or Thorn of Amethyst (I prefer Sphere cause it messes with Spring Tide more).

I do agree that there should be some form of grave hate in the SB, that is why Cranial Extraction is there, and if I didn't play Chalice it would be Extirpate. Extirpate is the ideal card in the Leyline spot but the awful synergy between Chalice and Extirpate just isn't worth playing.

georgjorge

04-28-2008, 05:43 AM

I wasn't advocating playing Leyline instead of Chalice, but playing BOTH in IGG matchups of course. Thorn sounds nice though, as it could also be sideboarded in against Thresh alongside Chalice (though that would probably be overkill on the disruption side and lead to a lack of threats).

Extraction against Loam decks (aggro or control) sounds just worse than Extirpates: You're going to sideboard out your Chalices anyway, and one mana is better than four. There are also instances where you won't even get up to four mana if an opponent gets a quick Loam+Wasteland going, or uses Loam advantage to set up a devastating Dreams.

technogeek5000

04-28-2008, 10:10 AM

Has anyone tried the white splash as it gives a few really strong tools. The first cards off the top of my head are: Stp, nantuko monastery, and morningtide in the board. Stp gives the deck a extremely versatile removal suite, as it can answer anything bid such as goyfs, dreadnoughts, opposing crushers/vores, etc... and has the other board cleaners to deal with anything that is medium to small in size. Nantuko monastery seems like a great tool for life from the loam to use because a recurrable 4/4 first striker that can dogde mass removal and tabernacle. Also, morningtide provides the best graveyard hate wish target out of all the five colors. There's also cards like gaddock teeg which can help in combo and control matchups.

Pulp_Fiction

04-28-2008, 02:29 PM

Splashing white is a good idea. Just take out 1x basic land and throw in Savannah or Plateau and with Mox Diamond it should not be a problem. What would be the better land thrown in for a white splash? I am thinking Plateau since both Foothills and Mire can fetch it. Now if you are running Chalice I would not run StP due to the awful synergy between them. However, a white splash gives the deck access to Vindicate and Morningtide in the SB, both of which seem amazing. And what makes this better is you can't color screw yourself, meaning these cards are in the SB and you basically play a 2x color deck with access to 2x more different colors but they can't be dead draws later on. I would play Volrath's Stronghold over Nantuko Monastery but that is a playstyle choice and either card in this deck is very effective.

crazyroundman

04-28-2008, 02:52 PM

I'm sorry - did you just suggest Morningtide in a Loam deck?

I mean, I can see how it'd help against Ichorid, but isn't there a better way?

technogeek5000

04-28-2008, 04:03 PM

I'm sorry - did you just suggest Morningtide in a Loam deck?

I mean, I can see how it'd help against Ichorid, but isn't there a better way?

Yes I did. When you morningtide a graveyard combo deck, it doesn't matter if you lose your yard because you just won the game. Ive been testing the ichorid matchup with the white splash and it literally went from 20% to 60+% preboard, no bullshitting.

And no there isnt. Morningtide is the best option of all the colors.

georgjorge

04-28-2008, 04:11 PM

And when you Morningtide a Loam deck, you both are crippled (in contrast to Extirpating/Leylining them), plus it doesn't help against IGG storm combo. Not better than the black options, or Wheel.

Vindicate/Swords are the two cards white would offer, but the first one makes it 4c which isn't worth it. And while Swords is better than Terminate, probably not that much that it is worth trading the discard and Confidant for it.

technogeek5000

04-28-2008, 04:20 PM

Ok people are obviously misunderstanding me. Here is my proposed sideboard for my White splash list

4 Leyline
4 Chalice
2 Tormod's crpyt
1 Lftl
1 dreams
1 shattering spree
1 Reverant silence
1 morningtide

Now morningtide is for preboard as a wish target. I dont side it in, as I side in my other grave hate for all forms of combo (non-belcher). my wishboard is very simple, but there all outs to almost everything I could think of and the rest is for problem matchups.

Jaiminho

04-28-2008, 04:22 PM

Yes I did. When you morningtide a graveyard combo deck, it doesn't matter if you lose your yard because you just won the game. Ive been testing the ichorid matchup with the white splash and it literally went from 20% to 60+% preboard, no bullshitting.

And no there isnt. Morningtide is the best option of all the colors.

Aside form Ichorid, no other graveyard combo deck will get owned by it. All of them dump stuff there and use them in the same (and last) turn, giving you no chance to cast it. Crypt doesn't do much, but it does something against them. Anyway, if there are enough Ichorid decks around, it may be good.

EDIT - Kinda late, I think.

Pulp_Fiction

05-08-2008, 03:20 PM

For the last 3 weeks in a row I have split in the top 4 at my local tournament (usually between 20-25 people) with this build:

4x Tarmogoyf
4x Countryside Crusher
3x Terravore
1x Eternal Witness

4x Chalice of the Void
3x Seismic Assault
2x Engineered Explosives
2x Devastating Dreams
4x Mox Diamond
3x Life from the Loam
4x Burning Wish

1x Badlands
3x Taiga
4x Wasteland
3x Tranquil Thicket
4x Wooded Foothills
3x Forgotten Cave
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Barbarian Ring
3x Forest
2x Mountain

Sideboard
1x Life from the Loam
1x Devastating Dreams
1x Reverent Silence
1x Meltdown
1x Chainer's Edict
1x Hull Breach
2x Sphere of Resistance
3x Krosan Grip
4x Leyline of the Void

This deck usually performs incredibly and Chalice of the Void has been the MVP everytime (next to Crusher of course). But I have started to wonder whether or not the 2x Sphere of Resistance are enough in the sideboard. I finally broke down and put Leyline of the Void in, the Ichorid match is so poor that this seems like it would help a little. 3x Krosan Grips seem like the perfect number but I think the 2x Sphere of Resistance need to be something else. I used to run Cranial Extraction in the Leyline slot so I was thinking to replace the Spheres with 1x Cranial Extraction and 1x Wing Snare. I am sold on 1x Wing Snare because this deck has such problems with Tombstalker in the early game it would be very beneficial. But my other option is running 1x Shattering Spree. It would be nice to have both 1x Meltdown and 1x Shattering Spree in the SB. I know most people run Spree over Meltdown but there is a ton of Affinity in my meta and Meltdown is just better against them. Now I am not going to put 2x Blood Moon/Magus in that slot so please don't suggest that, but what are everyone's thoughts on those 2x slots in the SB?

Pulp_Fiction

05-16-2008, 02:20 AM

Does anyone play this deck anymore? This thread has been ignored for more than a week. Anyway, random thought for anyone who plays Aggro Loam, this is a situation that came up in my last tournament I took this deck to. It was round 4 of 5 (then cut to top 8) and I was 3-0 and my opponent was thor who was playing R/g Goyf Sligh with quite a bit of burn in it. Anyway, game 1 on turn 3 I decided to cast Burning Wish for Devastating Dreams while he had only 2 lands, Kird Ape and Grim Lavamancer in play and I was at like 16. Now a few turns later I was wishing it was Loam when I drew into Seismic Assault but on turn 4 I cast a Goyf hoping to stall him out a little in the hopes of him overextending so I can do a 2-1 trade with my Goyf then drop Seismic and DD everything away or even kill his lands and keep my Goyf alive thanks to discarding Seismic (making him like a 5/6 or something).

Anyway, the point here is: I decided to Burning Wish for Devastating Dreams in the hope of slowing him down, showing him the Devastating Dreams so as he holds back a few threats and taking away his tempo advantage. It did work, or maybe it is just that Goyf Sligh plays no lands and DD for 3 ends their day pretty fast. Does anyone think this would be a good play against a savage aggro deck like Goyf Sligh or Goblins, wishing for a threat that you don't intend on casting for a few turns in the hope that they try to play conservatively and not overextend into it. I know it depends on the deck but does this seem like an effective play? Another Example would be something like Wishing for Meltdown against Affinity turn 2 in the hopes that they slow down and proceed with caution. This is situational, and I usually try to save Burning Wish for when I can cast it and DD in the same turn as an element of suprise but Aggro Loam has a coin-flip matchup against Sligh-like decks due to their burn spells, and since Loam has no life gain to negate those burn spells and Chalice for 1 doesn't stop Fireblast, Magma Jet, or Price of Progress... it can lead to bad times.

arsenalpow

05-16-2008, 07:51 AM

I played aggro loam 2 extended seasons ago, I picked it up after GP Dallas when i got to watch Kenji pilot the deck. Generally the correct wish target is always Loam, unless there is a situation that needed immediate attention. When you aren't under immediate pressure, wishing for loam will generate more card advantage than a temporary fix of wiping the board with DD.

In the situation you described it seems like you were under enough pressure from the board that you made the correct play, you just happened to be unlucky when you drew into the assault afterwords.

georgjorge

05-16-2008, 11:12 AM

Does anyone play this deck anymore? This thread has been ignored for more than a week.

A thread being ignored doesn't mean it isn't played, just that many points of debate have been settled...I think there aren't that many slots in Aggro Loam that are really debatable (I continue playing no Wishes for additional speed, but the majority seems to have decided otherwise), at least for the more controllish GRb list. But the deck still continues to be strong, in my experience.

technogeek5000

05-16-2008, 02:55 PM

I still play the deck, and I have been playing the GRW I suggested and it has been really strong for me. The reason people dont post isn the thread is what georgjorge said: the slots are tight and the topics have already been covered. You have to play loam, vore, crusher, goyf, wish, dreams, taiga, fetches, cycle lands, basics, seismic assault. So that leaves you with maybe a few slots open whihc usually go to chalice or thoughtsieze and the extra land slots are 7-8 fetches and most likely wastelands. The deck is still really stron, just not much room to evolve the deck.

Osse

05-17-2008, 01:52 AM

I'm liking this version, which top8e somewhere (Got the list off of Germagic...)

// Lands
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [TE] Wasteland
2 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [PT] Forest (1)
3 [ON] Forgotten Cave
3 [ON] Tranquil Thicket
1 [R] Bayou
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
4 [U] Taiga
1 [OD] Barbarian Ring
2 [R] Badlands

// Creatures
4 [MOR] Countryside Crusher
4 [OD] Terravore
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant

// Spells
4 [RAV] Life from the Loam
3 [EX] Seismic Assault
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [SH] Mox Diamond

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [SC] Pyrostatic Pillar
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [TO] Devastating Dreams
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate

No Wishes, no Discard or anything. The manabase is hot, and the only problem is of course, resolved threats. The sideboard is surprisingly really strong as I've learnt dreams is much better as a sideboard option. The rest is pretty standard. Crusher with Confidant and Loam is pretty sick.

Joon

05-17-2008, 05:26 PM

Alright, lets necro this thread as I have some amount of suggestions.

As I thought about Aggro Loam this day I asked myself the two crucial questions:

1. What does the deck lack?
2. What bad Matchups has this deck?

To point one: Many AggroLoam Decklist I've seen run zero to two Spotremoval. I guess this is a mistake. Our guys are big, yeah, but a potential 34/34 Crusher won't stop the Goyfs my Opponent has to beat me to death if I have no Critters by myself.

Bad Matchups are generally all kinds of Combodecks.

So I tried to solve these problems and thought about something interesting:

What about a white splash? It has been discussed and it has been abandoned, but I don't get why, actually. You get the best Spotremoval in Legacy, Swords to Plowshares, and in addition to that, you can run Orim's Chant in the Side to fight Stormcombodecks.

My lists looks like this:

Lands

4 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Plateau
4 Mountain
3 Forest
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Forgotten Cave
2 Tranquil Thicket
3 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Critter

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Countryside Crusher
3 Terravore

Removal

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Seismic Assault
3 Devastating Dreams

Loam & Utility

3 Life from the Loam
4 Burning Wish
4 Mox Diamond

Sideboard

1 Life from the Loam
1 Devastating Dreams
1 Reverent Silence
1 Shattering Spree
3 Krosan Grip
4 Orim's Chant
4 Thorn of Amethyst

The only thing I don't like that much is the manabase. Stronghold is way to good to get cutted so I left a very light splash in black only for Stronghold. As I don't want to rely on Moxen as my only black source I play a single Badlands.
Do yout think I should run more duals that produce white mana?

In my testings this list did pretty good.

technogeek5000

05-17-2008, 09:46 PM

I topped 4 split at Pawtucket today with RGW aggro loam. Im gonna right a report later but just a few quick points:

Tabernacle is the shit
Wasteland is the shit
My sideboard sucks in a meta with 0 combo, but it doesnt really matter I guess because my maindeck is amazing against combo and control
Dreadstill is becoming a problem, we should have something for it as its not a automatic bye like most matchups are

J.V.

05-17-2008, 09:55 PM

Dreadstill is becoming a problem, we should have something for it as its not a automatic bye like most matchups are

It's actually a moderately favorable matchup for Dreadstill :smile:

technogeek5000

05-17-2008, 09:58 PM

It's actually a moderately favorable matchup for Dreadstill :smile:

Well, my build not so much, I think your over estimating it. I have wish for shattering spree, 4 stp, my guys can easily get just as big or bigger, and other synergies that can get rid of dreadnought (tabernacle/dreams, seismic/loam).

J.V.

05-17-2008, 10:01 PM

Well, my build not so much, I think your over estimating it. I have wish foir shattering spree, 4 stp, my guys can easily get just as big or bigger, and other synergies that can get rid of dreadnought (tabernacle/dreams, seismic/loam).

I agree the RGw list is much better against Dreadstill than the RGB list. But our testing with loam has showed it to be around 55-45 preside, 60-40 post side. As long as Devestating Dreams doesn't resolve the game is really hard for you.

Pulp_Fiction

05-18-2008, 01:25 AM

Dreadstill is a tough matchup for this deck but against it I would mulligan down to no less that 5 cards trying to find Chalice of the Void. This just hurts them and then after Krosan Grip comes in from the side that 12/12 isn't that threatening anymore. Although it is still a tough matchup I would say with my board it is about 50/50 game 1, depending on Chalice and how fast the 12/12 trampler hits play. However, I run 2x Engineered Explosives and those are also very good against that deck. I play RGb Loam and my sideboard looks like this:

1x Shattering Spree
1x Meltdown
1x Life from the Loam
1x Reverent Silence (OMG SOOO GOOD HAS TO BE HERE)
1x Chainer's Edict
1x Wing Snare (replaces Hull Breach and is good against Tombstalker which gives this deck fits if it hits early enough)
1x Gaea's Blessing (last week out of 33 people there were 4x Painter's Servant decks)
1x Devastating Dreams
3x Krosan Grip
4x Leyline of the Void

This sideboard is heavily metagamed since there are tons of Affinity decks and Thresh (and apparently Painter's Servant now). Combo is literally non-existent in my meta. From my testing this build has literally gone 50/50 with Belcher, just mull into Chalice and drop a quick threat. They have to kill you with Belcher, Empty tokens have almost no effect against Loam due to 2x DD, 2x EE, and 4x Burning Wish main.

georgjorge

05-18-2008, 04:07 PM

What about a white splash? It has been discussed and it has been abandoned, but I don't get why, actually. You get the best Spotremoval in Legacy, Swords to Plowshares, and in addition to that, you can run Orim's Chant in the Side to fight Stormcombodecks.

Your list looks fine (I don't play Assaults and Wish, but others do) for a white splash but I think the discard is really crucial, not only against combo, but more importantly for speed. It's just faster and more efficient to go turn one Duress/Seize to take out a Force or Swords and play Crusher turn three, then go turn three Crusher, get it countered or sworded, then go turn four Crusher or Vore. And that's not even taking into account stuff like Extirpate that you can take with it.

As for another topic...how are the experiences of those who play Thorn of Amethyst in the side ? Does it warrant slots, or does it slow our own deck down too much ?

Pulp_Fiction

05-18-2008, 04:59 PM

I know it depends on your meta but I prefer Sphere of Resistance and since there is a lot of Affinity in my meta it certainly helps there, and it can be beneficial in the Goyf Sligh matchup or Fish. Sphere is also good against Spring Tide which is another reason I really like it. And to answer your question, from my experience it does not hinder Aggro Loam nearly as much as it does your opponent, I mean the deck is 1/2 lands. Sphere/Thorn is a great sideboard card however it needs to be played in multiples of 3-4, I ran 2x in my SB for a while and it wasn't near enough.

technogeek5000

05-18-2008, 05:40 PM

Here is my Top 4 list from yesterday if anyone is interested.

4 Countryside Crusher
4 TerraVore
2 Wild Mongrel
1 Tarmagoyf
1 Genesis
3 Life from the loam
3 Devastating dreams
4 Burning wish
3 Seismic assault
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained mire
1 Windswept Heath
3 Forgotten Cave
3 Tranquil Thicket
3 Wasteland
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Nantuko Monastery
4 Mox Diamond

4 Leyline of the void
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Tormod's crypt
1 Life from the Loam
1 Devastating Dreams
1 Shattering Spree
1 Reverent Silence
1 Morningtide

kabal

05-18-2008, 05:43 PM

Here is my Top 4 list from yesterday if anyone is interested.

4 Countryside Crusher
4 TerraVore
2 Wild Mongrel
1 Tarmagoyf
1 Genesis
3 Life from the loam
3 Devastating dreams
4 Burning wish
3 Seismic assault
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained mire
1 Windswept Heath
3 Forgotten Cave
3 Tranquil Thicket
3 Wasteland
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Nantuko Monastery
4 Mox Diamond

I'm guessing you don't own a playset of Goyfs? Is StP really needed, maybe because the lack of Goyfs in you build that is why you feel the need? How about EE? You don't find them useful?

technogeek5000

05-18-2008, 05:48 PM

Yes, thats right. The Wild Mongrels were actually often more useful then the goyfs could have been because they put lands back for vore and crusher from Loam and can get bigger then goyf.

Edit: Yes, Stp is needed. It fills the other side of the removal suite we have. E xplosives costs much more mana and cannot be played instant speed (I know it can be activated at instant speed, but the suprise and unaware factor really makes stp stronger here). The life gain is never a issue a nd really there isnt very many non creature permanents that we really have to worry about.

darkmindtone

05-26-2008, 06:25 PM

A few things of note regarding your deck technogeek5000:

-The numbers on Heath and Mire should likely be reversed with Foothills going up to a full four. You want more Heath so you can find basic Forest against Moon effects since your nonbasics are already Mountains.

-You want the fourth Wasteland. It's ridiculous in this deck, and you want it often and in multiples if possible.

-I really do like the White splash. I played the deck last weekend here in VA, and although I was killed by turn one and two kills from Graveyard decks which caused me to only end up with a 2-2 record, it felt solid to me (I did have Morningtide in, but it felt underpowered compared to the rest of the cards available).

After last weekend and some MWS games, I'm currently running this to great effect:

4 Terravore
4 Countryside Crusher
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Burning Wish
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Mox Diamond
3 Life from the Loam
3 Devastating Dreams
3 Seismic Assault

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
4 Tranquil Thicket
4 Forgotten Cave
3 Taiga
3 Windswept Heath
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Mountain

SB:
4 Krosan Grip
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Life from the Loam
1 Devastating Dreams
1 Reverent Silence
1 Shattering Spree

I really feel like a full eight Cycle lands should be included due to the lack of turn one plays this deck has. If you don't have Mox Diamond you are doing nothing with that mana turn one. People don't need nearly the number of duals that some decks are running. More fetches is good.

BTW, well aware this version can never beat Storm Combo. Ever.

Pulp_Fiction

05-27-2008, 04:28 AM

Although I think black is the superior color to splash because Volrath's Stronghold is teh nuts in this deck, I can understand why you would want Swords. One thing to take note of, never run 4x Terravore, he is just horrendous early on. I play 3x and the number could possibly go down to 2x but 3x is the right number. 8x Cycle lands is excessive IMOP. You don't want to draw them to play on that crucial turn against Goblins where you have to Burning Wish for DD and cast it. 6x Cycle lands is probably the right number. If you are worried about combo run chalice in the main. I see you could fit 3x in the main by cutting -1 land (26 is perfect for the deck), -1 Terravore, and -1 DD. With Burning Wish you only need 2x DD in the main deck as oftentimes it is a useless card (against Threshold with a full hand or Counterbalance in play) but you essentially have access to 6x of them with 2x in the main and 1x in the side. I personally like 2x Engineered Explosives, 1x Eternal Witness, and the 4th Chalice of the Void in place of Swords but again it comes down to playstyle. Explosives is very good against combo as it nullifies Goblin tokens and Zombie tokens and on occassion will remove a Chrome Mox or 2.

Joon

05-27-2008, 04:40 AM

Well, your list scoops to Blood Moon if you don't have any Moxen out...ok, you can cast Crusher/Dreams and Stuff, you may even able to cast Wish, but you can't Reverent Silence it away.
My list plays Blood Moon in the Side to fight 4c decks and stuff and therefor I play one single Basic Forest.

// Lands
3 [B] Taiga
4 [ON] Forgotten Cave
2 [ON] Tranquil Thicket
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [B] Badlands
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
1 [B] Plateau
4 [REW] Wasteland
1 [UNH] Forest
1 [B] Savannah
3 [ON] Windswept Heath

// Creatures
4 [MOR] Countryside Crusher
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [OD] Terravore

// Spells
3 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [JU] Burning Wish
3 [EX] Seismic Assault
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
3 [TO] Devastating Dreams
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
SB: 1 [TO] Devastating Dreams
SB: 1 [NE] Reverent Silence
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [PS] Orim's Chant
SB: 4 [DK] Blood Moon

Without EE main you'll be raped by good ol' Balance. Really. In addition, with all the Duals (I think that the Stronghold is worth the small amount of black) you can set it on 5 :P (4 is the important number: Humility/Moat...).

What do you think of Blood Moon in the Side? I could play Leyline instead or more Stormcombohate (Chalice/Thorn). Ichorid seems to be an upcoming appereance in my meta, so SOME graveyardhate should be in there. I like the minimal Wishboard though.

darkmindtone

05-27-2008, 05:41 AM

Joon, was that comment directed towards me? I have the singleton Forest, and even make a point early in the post to have more Heaths than Mires as to be able to fetch it against Blood Moon style decks.

Counterbalance isn't actually the beating it is against this deck in Extended due to the lack of 3's played on a regular basis in Legacy. Turn 2 Wish for Reverent Silence is also a possibility if you were aware the card will be played against you game one.

Pulp Fiction, I honestly can't get behind cutting any Terravore. He's absolutely crushing, and I would possibly run more if I could. Eight cycling lands is perfectly acceptable, and personally I recommend it. Like I said earlier, without a Moxen, you just sit there on turn one doing nothing most of the time. Not to mention the desire one has to have at least one Cycle land when you have Loam/Assault going as to be able to perform it more than once a turn with the necessary five+ mana out.

Volrath's Stronghold is one of those cards that is "nice to have", but not necessary at all. It, just like Genesis and Nostalgic Dreams, is just excess waiting to be trimmed. I'm sure those cards will win a game for you here or there, but they're definitely not necessary.

I played Chalice in the maindeck when I played the deck to 3rd/4th at the North VA Dual Land Draft, and boarded it out against everything game two. It wasn't good for me in any of my game one's either except once where I moxed it out turn one on the play versus Threshhold when he wasn't holding the Force. Swords is far less situational, and gives the deck the ability to remove large creatures that sometimes couldn't be taken down by Dreams (Goyf, Tombstalker, creatures in the mirror, etc). It seems like a pretty obvious inclusion, and I'm glad technogeek stepped up and brought it to everyone's attention.

Against any deck without Counterspells Devastating Dreams is the nuts, and therefore I can definitely get behind three in the maindeck. Yes, it's balls against Threshold, Landstill, etc, but against anything else it's usually game over. It's played with three maindeck in Extended Loam as well, and Counterbalance was even more dominating in that format than this. At the Dual Land Draft I played against Counterbalance decks for four straight rounds and was 4-0 versus them. It's definitely possible to beat that card with this deck (Wasteland helps a lot here).

Joon

05-27-2008, 06:39 AM

darkmindtone

05-27-2008, 06:47 AM

Balance can actually counter everything from you, except Vores and Crushers (and Decks like TEC or It's the whatever can actually counter these with Balance, too), and without the Loamengine those both are pretty useless or not so big as they could be if you had Loam. Sure, you can dredge it to make you Critters better, but getting Balance off the table was in testings always target Nr. 1. And Balance counters Wish. In Addition to Balance the decks that run it play often Removal and more Counters, so it can happen, that they play Balance and counter/sword/whatever your Vores and Crushers.
I overlooked the Basic Forest completely, my mistake. But I don't understand the Basic Mountain...? Under Blood Moon is everything a mountain and Landdestruction should'nt have an big influence on your Manabase due Loam?

Basic Mountain is a concession to Wasteland existing in this format (relevant versus Goblins and the like).

I'm well aware of Counterbalance being strong against this deck. It will sometimes win game one all by itself. Sideboard games though, Grip dominates that card, hence the maximum number of that card in the board. You want it often, and you want it early. Like I mentioned before, I played against solid players with Counterbalance variants and came out winning on the back of a number of 3cc bombs, early Wish for Silence, Grip from the board, and Wastelands.

Both Crusher and Vore are game-winning bombs even without the Loam engine online. Waste, Fetches, Cycling lands, and your opponents all make Vore bigger than most everything else played in the format without outside assistance, and Crusher is an engine unto itself.

koba

05-27-2008, 08:15 AM

Pulp_Fiction

05-27-2008, 02:17 PM

I understand that you like more spot removal, but can’t you just use terminate instead of plow and skip white? Orim’s chant in the sideboard is nice and all, but thoughtseize/chalice/thorn should do the job as well.

All in all, it seems that you add a 4th color for plow only. Plow is better than terminate, no doubt, but it comes at the cost of deteriorating your mana base. I’m sometimes colorscrewed while playing 3 colors already and your 4 color mana base looks kinda weak to me. Is the trade-off really worth it, especially considering that there is a decent alternative to plow?

I agree with you, but this is all opinion, some people like white in the deck and some like black, even though black is the better color to run. Orim's Chant is very unnecessary unless all you expect to play against is storm combo and even then Chalice of the Void is a LOT better against combo than Chant is. As much as I despise running Leyline of the Void in the SB it has to be there. Loam can't beat Dredge unless they mull into oblivion or have an amazingly sub-par draw.

Color screw is very rare in this deck although it does happen, that is why the black splash is so effective, you don't have to have the mana to cast your black spells because they will never be dead cards in your hand. Black is in the deck for Voltath's Stronghold and Chainer's Edict in the SB (technically Leyline as well but you don't cast that). Edict is SO good, I have only had good experiences with the card, and you will be glad it is there when you have 3 cards in hand turn 4 and are looking at a Tombstalker on the other side of the table. With the black splash you are essentially playing R/G Loam with access to black if you need it. Terminate could be in there but why would you not run Chalice of the Void and/or Explosives in those slots? Chalice single-handedly cripples at least 1/3 of the decks in the format and is rarely a dead card. CotV does not really have a middle ground in this deck, it is either amazingly effective against your opponent playing something like Stiflenought or Thresh or just dead against something like Dragon Stompy or Goblins. Even with it being a dead draw on occassion the fact that it wrecks so many decks just by itself warrants its inclusion.

technogeek5000

05-28-2008, 04:55 PM

Im so glad that the white splash is catching on but there is something I must address: This deck is built for a aggro metagame. When I say aggro metagame, I mean: 95% aggro, 5% control, combo. Thats pretty much how RI was. The reason I had all the sideboard hate for combo was I very paranoid realizing that I had zero chance of beating combo game one.

Zach Tartell

05-28-2008, 05:07 PM

Orlove Reanimator used to use Last Rites (http://magiccards.info/od/en/146.html) as a hand-rape system. Could it be advantageous to add it here? I mean, you don't have Squee or fatties to use it as an alterior motive, but I'm sure that you could use it early (turn two off of a Mox) to get important things out of an opponent's hand, or late game (after the Loam Engine is online) to just make your opponent discard his hand. I'd certainly run a Bayou or two for something like that, if I were afraid enough of combo.

SnakeEater

05-29-2008, 07:29 AM

I like the idea of Last Rites in the Sideboard. But in every tournament I placed it there i didn't need it.

What do you think about Gleeful Sabotage over Hull Breach in the Sideboard? The copy cannot be countered by Chalice@2 or Counterbalance. But the tap 2 green creatures requirement for the conspire cost is a little bit too much for thic deck i think.

Another thought is to play Vexing Shusher in the main and/or sideboard. It helps us to force through our relevant spells to win against blue decks. What do you think?

Zach Tartell

05-29-2008, 11:18 AM

The copy can't be countered, but the Burining Wish can be. It's a poor answer, 'casue you'd have to wish for it before Counterbalance hits play.

Nihil Credo

05-29-2008, 11:43 AM

Still, I can't remember the last time I used both of Hull Breach's effect and it mattered (as opposed to just targeting a Top to make them waste 1 mana). Conspiring a Sabotage is also unlikely (the deck has 7 green creatures which are usually huge and want to swing), but the easier casting cost is more relevant than this whole discussion. I say aye.

conboy31

05-29-2008, 02:19 PM

Looking at the decks from deckcheck it looks like the current batch of aggro loam decks are very diversified.

RG, RGb, RGw, RGbw

Among these are some that can support Tomb/City (particularly RG).
A few do not run seismic assault.
Some run chalice main, sb, or not at all.
Wish board or no.

I am trying something like this:
creature [15]
4 Countryside Crusher
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Terravore

sorcery [10]
4 Burning Wish
3 Devastating Dreams
3 Life from the Loam

artifact [10]
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Mox Diamond

land [25]
1 Badlands
1 Bayou
2 Forest
3 Forgotten Cave
1 Mountain
4 Taiga
2 Tranquil Thicket
4 Wasteland
2 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Volraths Stronghold

This decks mana curve is actually well below any threshold list, so Bob helps a ton if he stays alive. Chalice can be strong and does not cramp the deck. 3 colors opens up the door for some creative explosives. Standard wishboard.

technogeek5000

05-29-2008, 04:50 PM

Phantom

05-29-2008, 05:48 PM

The reason confidant and shusher arent that hot in aggro loam is because they die to devastating dreams. Dreams is the best removal piece this deck has and if you start playing cards that weaken that your not gonna get far. This deck recurs most things so shusher is really only good in the board for decks like thresh and dreadstill but even then we have better options. Confidant is over kill because we already have loam. The 2cc slot is filled with much more relevant cards so these guys really wont come down till turn 4 or 5 and by then they dont matter.

I have to disagree with you on your first point here (clogging the 2cc spot is valid). If you run even 8 creatures that die to DD, so what? You're still winning 90% of games where you resolve one, so what's wrong with running some creatures to draw into and resolve DD (note that I wouldn't run Confidant or Shusher in Aggro Loam, but certainly not for DD related reasons). This is essentially the same thing as running Goyfs in the same deck as Deeds. At some point, power level is a bigger concern than synergy.

Xypher

05-30-2008, 01:19 PM

Wheee, first post! So I took Aggro Loam to the Legacy side event at PT Hollywood and here's how things went, but first, my list:

4 Tarmogoyfs
3 Terravore
3 Countryside Crusher
1 Brawn

3 Life from the Loam
4 Burning Wish
2 Devastating Dreams

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Mox Diamond

3 Seismic Assault

4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Badlands
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Tranquil Thicket
3 Forgotten Cave
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Wasteland
1 Barbarian Ring

SB:
1 Shattering Spree
1 Devastating Dreams
1 Pyroclasm
1 Nostalgic Dreams
1 Rite of Consumption
1 Life from the Loam
2 Hull Breach (couldn't find a Reverent Silence)
4 Faerie Macabre
3 Vexing Shusher

Round 1: Thresh

Thresh hasn't been that much of a threat in testing and the addition of Shushers from the side in game 2 seems to push this match to nigh-unwinnable for Thresh. I swept this game with beats & Assault he didn't have much of a chance.

1-0

Round 2: Dreadstill

I tested Dreadstill extensively for this format expecting it to compromise a lot of the field. Chalice is a complete house vs Dreadstill (and like 80% of the format) and Shushers coming in for game 2 & 3 pretty much assure me the win. I'm still new to all the nuance of Aggro-Loam, so I think I won on the strength of this MU.

2-0

Round 3: Geddon Stax

I was also carrying around a full Geddon Stax deck and had contemplated playing it, I didn't because it's a not-fun deck. Sadly this matchup is fundamentally terrible for my build, the best bet I had was to aggro him out, but it was not to be for me this match. Game 1 Wasteland/Chalice recursion turn 3 with me sitting on all non-basics, game 2 Crucible stax on turn 2 . . . with build I was playing this deck has near no game vs Geddon Stax.

2-1

Round 4: Goblins

Don't need to say much here DD is a complete monster vs Gobs, and I rode it to the win games 1 and 3 game 2 saw them able to combo off to my face before I found a wish or DD.

3-1

Round 5: Burn Deck Wins

In hindsight this is a horrific matchup for the build I was playing, I didn't even get to do much at all both games was simply burn then Price of Progress to the dome. I'm sure I could shore up this match with some training on how to play it but it's still very badly in the favor of BDW. I'd been playing magic for 4 days at this point so I dropped and went home.

Final 3-2

Some notes on my build:

Brawn/Anger: felt like a waste of a slot, I may just not have dredged enough.
Volrath's Stronghold: never used it, very few times that I felt I could use it, it was unimportant.
Vexing Shusher: while it doesn't seem as useful in the control matches as people make him out it be it's overall effect on counter-based control seems to be akin to Tangle Wire, it makes their gameplan evolve slowly as they attempt to play around it/remove it. I like Shusher but I don't know if it should become a staple of the deck.
Faerie Macabre: Feels like this is a better plan vs Ichy combo over Crypt (which they will Needle) or Leyline which you must find in your opener to be of any value.
Chalice of the Void: I love what this card does in the current Legacy enviroment, but in most matches where it mattered it often felt like a win-more.

I'm currently debating moving back to a more CAL shell for the deck or at least running Explorations somewhere. The Stax match is horrendous and I think that it could be overcome by Exploration, but you still have big problems with Chalice for 2. I'm also eying Solitary again as an answer to Burn Deck.

ReAnimator

05-30-2008, 03:11 PM

Has anyone tried running Sylvan Safekeeper in non chalice builds?

I've started testing a Confidant version similar to the one Conboy31's a few posts above, but i'm running therapies and thoughtseizes and no Chalice. Is there just not enough targeted removal to justify running safekeepers? I've found them to be combo-licious and really good at protecting the confidants and big guys. They also work well with therapies, for your big turns.

How bad is hand disruption in the environment right now? I've been out of legacy for about 6 months.

Are EE's that necessary?

Also how good is volraths stronghold?
It's one of my favorite cards of all time, but it only seems good in really long attrition wars which this deck is already good at, also having 5 colourless sources seems scary, and it is really slow.

Are Red elemental blasts a consideration at the moment because of Grindstone decks (assuming you aren't running chalice)? or is sticking with shattering spree and krosan grips more than enough (is this deck even played?).

Thanks in advance to anyone who can answer these questions sorry for being out of the loop.

conboy31

05-31-2008, 01:00 AM

Nihil Credo

05-31-2008, 02:20 AM

In somewhat ironic fashion, given the last posters name, I played a handful of games vs my friends reanimator deck. It is pretty fast (plays petals and rituals) and I just got curb stomped. We played pre-board and I was something like 1-7. I won when I dropped a 1st turn chalice at one, zero + waste lock, shutting off his deck. What a beating that matchup is. Putrid Imp is the counfounding variable for all burning wish sac a creature sorcery cards.
Aggro Loam loses to graveyard decks that aren't the mirror: this has been known for a while. Against *specifically* Reanimator you can tilt the odds by using your Chalice/Confidant/Thoughtseize/etc. slot for Swords to Plowshares, but I suspect not by much (if it's a decent reanimator, it should be able to field two threats in a reasonable amount of time). Otherwise, the only choice is how much SB space to devote to this problem.

georgjorge

05-31-2008, 05:44 AM

Has anyone tried running Sylvan Safekeeper in non chalice builds?

I thought about it, and had them in for a very brief period, but then thought again and found that additional Duress/Seizes is just better - it will take one removal out from their hand (or a crucial combo part, CBalance etc), and it's pretty uncommon for an opponent to get more than two spot removal in a given game, as most decks run just about four.

Are Red elemental blasts a consideration at the moment because of Grindstone decks (assuming you aren't running chalice)? or is sticking with shattering spree and krosan grips more than enough (is this deck even played?).

I haven't really seen it played much so far. I think it's ok, but nothing gamebreaking, so Blasts aren't needed. Chalice and Grip, along with discard and Wastelands (they usually run Tombs or Cities) should be more than enough.

Also, Faerie Macabre seems not as good as Extirpate to me. It's free, but Extirpating Loam or a Tropical Island is a very strong play in important matchups.

Against *specifically* Reanimator you can tilt the odds by using your Chalice/Confidant/Thoughtseize/etc. slot for Swords to Plowshares

...or Terminate if you don't want to mess up your manabase :wink:

ReAnimator

05-31-2008, 10:13 AM

Thanks that's very helpful.

One of my teammates suggested extirpates over macabre's as well, just cause they are relevant in other matchups.

As for the safekeepers, i totally see what you are saying, is their other ability to just pump things really large totally irrelevant? i've been liking them a decent amount just cause my build has confidants, so more guy's i want to keep alive.

Vacrix

06-01-2008, 03:39 PM

phantom is right. confidant and crusher are very good choices here. i believe that crusher has enormous potential in this. anyone who says otherwise has overlooked a couple things. consider this. crusher has amazing synergy with the dredge ability, its own kinship ability, and devestating dreams. if you play devestating dreams, discarding 3 land from a life from the loam it gets 3/3 there and then you lose 3 more lands. it just became a 9/9. as long as you discard lands with the dreams it wont die to the dreams because the lands going to the grave pump it up before the damage is dealt because its an addtional cost of the spell.

i played an aggro loam player, who found it hard to find all of the pieces to make his synergy work. i find that this deck works alot like the old terravore deck with balance and the 'sac at 2 of 2 different color mana' lands and obliterate. it would set up with insidious dreams. maybe you could do the same thing with crusher/terravore and devestating dreams. you already run black so it wouldnt be that hard to add.

also i guess pernicious deed doesnt work as well as EE or wat? cause you guys run black. why not? and i mean i know its slow but how would greater gargadon fit into all this? pump your terravore as well as make the crusher huge. it seems a little bit slow, but im just throwing it out there.

technogeek5000

06-03-2008, 08:54 PM

ebbitten

06-03-2008, 09:20 PM

Don't know if this is relevent but to me shusher just seems like a waste of a sb slot, if you have time and resources you can simply recur cards and make them run out of counters instead of playing a different card just to negate counters. I know that when i play UWb Cunning Landstill this is one of the hardest matchups to really feel comfortable simply because aggro loam can recur most of its important cards, it can even recover from an extirpate on loam through burning wish.

koba

06-04-2008, 05:38 AM

Right on! Life from the loam and stronghold allows you to win against counterheavy decks anyway. The sideboard is already very tight as it is with a wishboard, graveyard hate, combo hate and a few krosan grips. There are better options than shusher.

technogeek5000

06-04-2008, 08:47 AM

New list if anyone is interested.

4 Countryside Crusher
4 TerraVore
3 Tarmagoyf
1 Genesis
3 Life from the loam
3 Devastating dreams
4 Burning wish
3 Seismic assault
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained mire
3 Windswept Heath
3 Forgotten Cave
3 Tranquil Thicket
2 Wasteland
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Nantuko Monastery
4 Mox Diamond

4 Leyline of the void
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Krosan grip
1 Life from the Loam
1 Devastating Dreams
1 Shattering Spree
1 Reverent Silence
1 Morningtide

-2 Wild mongrel
-2 Bloodstained mire
-1 Wasteland
+2 Goyf
+2 Windswept heath
+1 Wooded foothills

-2 Tormod's crypt
+2 krosan Grip

These were the changes I made from my RI deck. This isnt my exact paper list, as I am on a bugdet, but this is my list that I have been testing on MWS. Its fully optimized, and I have to say that it runs pretty well. I replaced 2 mires for heaths and added the 4th foothill to help smooth out the manabase as I was getting color screwed enough to make it a problem. The crypts were excessive GY hate so I took them out to help hate on non combo decks that give this deck a problem (dreadstill, dreadstill, dreadstill).

Pulp_Fiction

06-04-2008, 01:07 PM

@the discussion about the reanimator match, it is very tough, you almost have to mull into Mox Diamond-Burning Wish or Mox Diamond-Chalice to stand a chance. Running 1x Chainer's Edict in the board will help a LOT and their manabase is usually pretty awful, I think most build run like 18 lands with 2-3 basics so Wasteland can be a champ here. Otherwise just mull into Mox Diamond + something relevant to try and keep up the pace with them.

I recently encountered something like this at my local tournament, apparently this deck has ENORMOUS problems on turn 3 when you are staring at a Verdant Force. Deathmark seems strictly inferior in the SB compared to Chainer's Edict since it doesn't kill Tombstalker and I have no idea how this deck could have dealt with a 7/7 that makes an army in the first 3 turns without a very specific hand. Eventually I could have DD for his team but that requires 8 cards in hand! On turn 3 I dropped EE for 0. ON his turn 4 he cast MAINDECK CREEPING MOLD on my EE. My turn 4 I drop a blocker and setup the turn 6 DD for 7. On his turn 5 he casts MAINDECK OVERRUN!!! WTF!!! I took around 30!!! It was funny as hell and I was in awe that I just played a game against an old-school Secret Force deck (at least that is the name we agreed upon to describe the NaturalOrderVerdantForce.dec)

@Vacrix: Why would you run Pernicious Deed? EE is just better in this deck. On the first post describing this deck the word Synergy is defined and thats why Deed isn't in the deck. It is good, probably the best mass removal ever printed, but it has no synergy in this deck. Mox Diamond, Goyf, and Chalice of the Void have 0 synergy together and that is why EE is run, it is selective mass removal that doesn't affect (usually) it's controller.

@Technogeek: Why would you run 4x Terravore? Very rarely in the first 2-4 turns is Terravore any good and I can't remember an opening hand I have wanted to see him in so I could play a 2/2 on turn 4! Play 3x because he sucks in the early game but you want to see a copy later on. Play an Eternal Witness/Engineered Explosives #3/ Dreams #3 in that spot.

technogeek5000

06-04-2008, 02:47 PM

Umm, you play 4 of vore because when your not playing a goldfish or a MWS random, terravore is just as crucial as crusher. You want as many creatures as possible and terravore always gets bigger before goyf on the first time attacking. A 7/7 or 8/8 is great, and when your opponent is actually playing spells, the deck goes into the late game. Terravore is good mid late and its really easy to get him to a 13/13+. Vore also tramples which is crucial. I play 4 vore because when I play aggro loam, I like to have my creatures bigger then my opponents. I dsont know what your talking about... vore has never been lower then a 5/5 in my whole time of playing this deck, and I love to see him in my hand, I also love it more when I get multiples because it tells me that Im going to have lots of big and consistent creatures throughout that game. Anyways, this decks early game consists of life from the loam and dreams, how hard will it be exactly to get lands into the yard. from my experience with the deck, not hard at all.

darkmindtone

06-05-2008, 07:55 AM

4X Terravore should be in every version. He's absurd and definitely warrents the slots.

ReAnimator

06-05-2008, 12:33 PM

4X Terravore should be in every version. He's absurd and definitely warrents the slots.

I think it depends on the version. If you have confidants you really don't need a 4th in there, as you will hopefully be drawing more cards.
Also after game one you can expect some graveyard hate coming in which diminishes the fourth vore's usefulness.

Has anyone tried an unearth as a wish target? I doubt its worth the slot but sometimes i want the wish to be able to get a threat rather than an answer.

Holiday

06-05-2008, 01:12 PM

Pulp_Fiction

06-05-2008, 02:36 PM

I like the idea of trying Unearth. I face a lot of creature removal in my meta and I was running regrowth SB but have decided to cut it. This will be interesting to try.
I'm going to try:
3 Krosan Grip
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Life from the Loam
1 Devastating Dreams
1 Hull Breach
1 Shattering Spree
1 Chainer's Edict
1 Pyroclasm
1 Unearth
1 (Pending)

That one open slot should be Reverent Silence. There are going to be situations where Hull Breach just won't cut it. Silence is phenomenal against any form of Enchantress and owns Leyline of the Void against hand destruction in that it can be cast the turn it is wished for. There are also a few Goblin decks in my meta that run Leyline and the fact that Silence is free can and will make the difference since you waste only 1 turn wishing as opposed to casting Wish then waiting till next turn to cast Hull Breach. Another great card to consider for the wish board is Wing Snare. Someone suggested this a while back and it is amazing. Escecially if you have played this deck for a while and stared down a turn 3-5 Tombstalker, it is rough.

georgjorge

06-05-2008, 04:25 PM

@Vacrix: Why would you run Pernicious Deed? EE is just better in this deck. On the first post describing this deck the word Synergy is defined and thats why Deed isn't in the deck. It is good, probably the best mass removal ever printed, but it has no synergy in this deck. Mox Diamond, Goyf, and Chalice of the Void have 0 synergy together and that is why EE is run, it is selective mass removal that doesn't affect (usually) it's controller.

For the versions not running Chalice main, I think Deed is better, since then it only has dissynergy with Diamond (Goyf doesn't like Explosives much either) as Chalice and Deed are often sided in for different matchups. Deed is just better against Goblins (ok, you beat them anyway) but also Faerie Stompy and Dragon Stompy as well as Stax (those three being not so easy matchups), and makes killing Leylines easier. Apart from that, not much difference to EE.

Holiday

06-06-2008, 10:36 AM

Pulp I like your suggestion. I often forget to think about other deck's siboards when constructing my own. Also, although I haven't seen it much, I am pretty sure enchantress would be a tough match-up for my deck.

Wing Snare sounds good too, I'm not sure what I would take out for it, but I could see edict being ineffective if my opponent has other little guys out.
Still I haven't seen much flying in legacy lately, maybe it's just my area.

matthewCURBSTOMP

06-18-2008, 09:24 PM

How has everyone been doing against burn? It seems to be the only "rough" match-up. As far as I can tell it's all about opening hands and landing a CoTV or two.

technogeek5000

06-18-2008, 09:27 PM

My dad plays burn and its not too hard. Everytime we do a game I play a devastating dreams and I win. You land that one card and you almost always win.

THEchubbymuffin

06-19-2008, 03:21 AM

Does anybody know a good card Maindeck that could get the seismic assualt that I dredged into my grave back into play or into my hand? Regrowth in the wishboard seems like a wasted slot.

diffy

06-19-2008, 03:37 AM

Does anybody know a good card Maindeck that could get the seismic assualt that I dredged into my grave back into play or into my hand?

Depending on your splashes, a single mainboard Eternal Witness alongside a Genesis or a Volrath's Stronghold is rather strong, at least for the more controlish builds - if you play a more aggressive list, I wouldn't play either one of these as they lower your consistency because they aren't particularly aggressive. Also, playing the more aggressive lists, you don't really care if something gets countered/dredged - you just continue to play threats, draw cards and eventually win.

Regrowth in the wishboard seems like a wasted slot.

Regrowth maybe is a wasted slot, Nostalgic Dreams (http://magiccards.info/tr/en/135.html) for sure isn't - it has massive synergy with your Loam engine and ends games on the spot if it resolves.

THEchubbymuffin

06-19-2008, 04:17 AM

Thanks for the nostalgic dreams idea Der_imaginäre_Freund.

Here is my current list.(I don't know how to export correctly)

1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Barbarian Ring
4x Wasteland
3x Tranquil Thicket
3x Forgotten Cave
4x Taiga
4x Wooded Foothills
2x Bloodstained Mire
1x Badlands
1x Mountain
1x Swamp
1x Forest

3x Terravore
4x Countryside Crusher
4x Tarmogoyf
1x Genesis

2x Devastating Dreams
3x Life from the Loam
4x Burning wish
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Mox Diamond
2x Engineered Explosives
3x Seismic Assualt

//Sideboard
1x Devastating Dreams
1x Life from the Loam
1x Shattering Spree
1x Pyroclasm
1x Rite of Consumption
2x Reverent Silence
4x Leyline of the Void
1x Unearth
2x Krosan Grip
1x Nostalgic Dreams

Any advice? I feel that sometimes the pyroclasm in the board is unneccesary because I commonly take the DD just because it's better in most situations.

Elficidium

06-19-2008, 05:38 AM

Pyroclasm is good for backup ofcourse, against goblins for example it's not uncommon for you to have to sweep multiple times.

technogeek5000

06-19-2008, 09:21 PM

I would take out 1 reverant silence (unless you have 5+ enchantress decks in your meta :rolleyes:), Rite of consumption, pyroclasm, and Unearth. They are all cute, but its basically another Danger of Cool things. When you play this deck you will realise that you rarely ever wish for anything thats not dreams or loam so having all of those extra cards is just wasting SB slots. Instead, run something to hate out combo like duress which you can still wish for.

Also, please play 3 dreams. Theres really never a time where you dont want one and I always find having multiples (however rare) is a good thing. They are definately better then Explosives so I would swap one for one if I was you.

THEchubbymuffin

06-20-2008, 03:34 AM

I just came across this card from a friend. But for those of us who do not play white is Ruination worth a wishboard slot? It is an armaggaedon, possibly a one sided one if set up properly. I am about to test it out instead of unearth but it seems like it would be worth a shot.
My only worry is that people fetch basics after they see wasteland #1.

Pulp_Fiction

06-20-2008, 04:05 AM

@Technogeek 2x DD + 4x Burning Wish is WAY to much Devastating Dreams and my meta consists of a lot of gaycounterbalance.dec and against them DD ALWAYS come out. I am not sure what blue control deck you would want DD against, I mean if it doesn't resolve you basically lose. So 2x Devastating Dreams main is just perfect.

@Elficidium 1x Resolved Devastating Dreams against Goblins is 98% of the time a win. Even if they still have a vial in play your creatures are just better than theirs are and you smash them in the face and I have found that Goblins can't possibly win if this deck has Seismic Assault/Loam going. Pyroclasm is fairly unnecessary IMOP but it could possibly be a meta slot if you see TONS of Goblins or storm combo but again DD covers that just as well.

@THEchubbymuffin - Ruination is not necessary, Devastating Dreams does everything this card tries to do and more. If you really want to play an Armageddon just run -1 land +1 Plateau and Armageddon in sideboard. However it really isn't necessary, it is meta dependent but I would run Tsunami over this.

In regard to Wish targets I have been experimenting with Deathmark and I REALLY like it. I was playing against U/W Ninja Chant (don't laugh this deck wrecks so many tier 1 decks its insane) and he had a Meddling Mage in play naming Loam and this was AWFUL. So I though about playing Pyroclasm as a sweeper to remove it but then I thought of Deathmark, it kills Goyf and Meddling Mage. Yes, I realize Deathmark has no synergy with CotV but that is why it is in the wishboard. This is my current SB with this deck and it is heavily metagamed (I play typical RGb 12 creature Loam):

1x Devastating Dreams
1x Wing Snare
1x Deathmark
1x Meltdown
1x LftL
1x Shattering Spree
1x Chainer's Edict (thinking about removing this)
1x Reverent Silence
1x Krosan Reclamation (wreck's PainterServant.dec)
3x Cranial Extraction (this card is a FUCKING HOUSE)
3x Krosan Grip

I abandoned Leyline of the Void in the SB because there is very little Dredge in my meta and even with it Dredge is still a rough matchup with it so I will just take Dredge as an autoloss and have a full sideboard against everything else. I played Leyline in SB for about 3-5 weeks and in my weekly tournament I never sided them in once so I took em out. And whienot was playing Aggro Loam a while ago with Leyline in SB and lost to Dredge after it was Chained back to his hand so I quit playing Leyline; I recommend doing this if there is no Dredge in your meta since Leyline is really bad in most other matchups.

THEchubbymuffin

06-21-2008, 06:11 PM

Ok lets get some more discussion in here.
Not sure if this has been decided but here goes.

I play 4 leyline of the void in the sideboard and I was wondering if extirpate would be better.

Pros of leyline:
comes down turn 0 if in hand.
rapes opponents grave

cons of leyline:
bad topdeck
your reverent silence kills it.
possible needs to be mulled into
-----------------------------------------------

Pros of extirpate:
wasteland and pate the land = amazing IMO.
Stp is a pain if i dont resolve chalice.
low wincon opponent will

cons of extirpate:
black has to be fetched for in my deck.
chalice and it collide.

So i need advice on that one.

Nihil Credo

06-21-2008, 06:55 PM

I don't see much appeal for Extirpate in this deck. Between Wasteland, DDreams, Chalice, and SB Blood Moon, the resource denial aspect is pretty well covered, and it doesn't synergise much with the effect of Extirpate. The one good combo is Waste+Extirpate, but nowadays I see that most decks do plan around it. If your meta is full of 4C Landstill (which is one of the few exceptions to that), then it could work.

IMO, the most serious competitor for graveyard hate in Aggro Loam is Offalsnout. Much easier to cast than a bounced/drawn Leyline*, Chalice-proof, and it can be recurred with Stronghold (or Genesis, if you prefer that one). The biggest downside is that it does nothing against other Loam decks.

*which is the one reason to consider at all anything other than Leyline

Pulp_Fiction

06-21-2008, 09:03 PM

Extirpate doesn't have great synergy with the deck expecially if you run CotV thats why Extirpate isn't played. Offalsnout is not a bad idea but if you are looking for SB filler and don't want to run something like Cranial Extraction then run combo hate like Sphere or Resistance or Thorn. I just can't think of ANY deck besides Dredge where I would want Leyline in play against them and unlike a lot of people I will not dedicate 4x SB slots for 1 matchup where those cards don't automatically win the match. In order to beat Dredge (assuming you have nothing game 1 that affects them) you need at least 6 SB slots to reliably (70ish% of the time) stop that deck. The arguments for having Leyline have already been said "it is good against storm combo" not really, they just Diminishing Returns into hotness "it is good in the mirror" well yes, yes it is but what the hell are you going to side out to put 7x cards in (4x Leyline and 3x Krosan Grip). Grip is a million times better than Leyline to side in the mirror. Besides this is a recurring theme when playing Aggro Loam:
Opponent opens with Leyline
me: Fuck, that slows me down like ... a turn.
Turn 1 Land go.
Turn 2 Land Burning Wish for Reverent Silence gain 6 life ... go.

OR

Turn 1 Land go.
Turn 2 Land Goyf go.
Turn 3 Land Grip Attack go.

Leyline is annoying but not nearly as good as something like Grip which removes EE and Seismic, pretty hot. I swear Cranial Extraction is worth it in the SB plus you can still Wish for it! I won at least 2 games the other week at my local tournament based on Extraction resolving. And another card that is starting to piss me off that people in my meta are running is Ancient Grudge. Grudge is really good against CotV @1; but not after Extraction resolves. Or think about playing against Stiflenought and Extracting the Dreadnought, thats damn solid. But yes the card is slower but its just flat out good and powerful. Cranial Extraction is a very overlooked and underutilized bomb which almost always has a devastating effect on the game.

raharu

06-22-2008, 01:59 AM

T1: land, go
T2: land, goyf, go
T3: land, wish, silence, swing? wtf?

Just sayng.

EDIT: Also, Cranial Extraction is 3B, hence why it's not played.

Pulp_Fiction

06-22-2008, 03:25 AM

Never played Aggro Loam? K, when you have played it tell me you have never done this, that is how good this deck is and the US seems to not understand this as much as Europe does. And I recommend Cranial Extraction because it wins games. In a aggro-controlish deck that runs 26 lands and 4 Mox Diamonds 3B to remove all of target players Goyfs or Vedalken Shackles is really good. Extraction shines in certain matches (mirror, blue control stuff) and sucks in others (goblins) and it is basically Counterbalance proof. I really wish people knew what they were talking about before they posted or at least tested cards out (cards that aren't just awful) before making observations based on their own theories as to how they could potentially effect a game.

Elficidium

06-22-2008, 02:16 PM

@Elficidium 1x Resolved Devastating Dreams against Goblins is 98% of the time a win. Even if they still have a vial in play your creatures are just better than theirs are and you smash them in the face and I have found that Goblins can't possibly win if this deck has Seismic Assault/Loam going.

No. I've played the matchup dozens of times and Rb(g) goblins has a very decent matchup against Aggroloam, to the point that Aggroloam needs to be really quick (turn 1 Tarmo, turn 2 Crusher, something like that) or get DD, or else it's going to be very difficult. Don't forget that Goblins plays a lot of land, plays vials and thus can get back from DD very quickly. I've won dozens of games through a Devastating Dreams by just restarting the next turn, dropping a lackey and connecting. Builds nowadays also have removal in the form of Weirding backed up with Fanatics and Gempalms. I'd put the Matchup 60/40 for Loam Preboard and 50/50 post.
[/rant]
Loam + Asssault is game though, like it is against every aggrodeck.
A bit like Chalice @ 2 rapes Loam, you just accept the slight chance that it happens.

Nihil Credo

06-22-2008, 02:36 PM

Dark_Cynic87

06-22-2008, 03:32 PM

Elficidium's experience of the Goblins vs. AL matchup matches my own. Vial was one of the primary reasons that made me include maindeck EEs in the first place - DDreaming with a Vial on the table is exceedingly dangerous.

Just one small thing to add: turn 1 Chalice on the play is very, very good against Goblins - if your hand has any sort of action, you'll usually be able to match their speed.

I'm curious, when did chalice become something to play against goblins? Stax boards them out religiously against the little green retards, and I'm pretty sure Stompy does as well in favor of Needles, plagues or EE's.

Elficidium

06-22-2008, 04:03 PM

I'm curious, when did chalice become something to play against goblins? Stax boards them out religiously against the little green retards, and I'm pretty sure Stompy does as well in favor of Needles, plagues or EE's.
The Aggro Loam vs Goblins as a very specific and very close one. Hence the fact that I tested it quite a lot, it's a test of skill on both ends and makes for exciting matches. Chalice 1 slows goblins down exactly enough for the loam player to gain distinctive board advantage. Leyline on the other side of the table serves the same purpose: it slows loam just enough for goblins to gain board advantage and dominate.

Nihil Credo

06-22-2008, 04:15 PM

I'm curious, when did chalice become something to play against goblins? Stax boards them out religiously against the little green retards, and I'm pretty sure Stompy does as well in favor of Needles, plagues or EE's.
I maindeck them. They are, indeed, boarded out if I have hate in the SB (which is not a given - sometimes my SB ignores that matchup and looks like Moon/Leyline/Grudge/wishboard).

BTW, in the case of Stax, Chalices are the second card to be boarded out against Goblins, the first being Smokestack. Dragon Stompy, in my experience, should switch them for Needles unless a) the Gobs player is splashing white and b) DS plays first.

Pulp_Fiction

06-22-2008, 09:44 PM

The Goblins matchup is generally a lot closer than I would like to say that it is. The RGb builds with Weirding, Wort, and either Tinkerer or Hooligan in the main can give this deck problems but it greatly depends on the draws and the amount of mana disruption the goblins player has combined with speed. I generally run over R/W goblins because people in my meta don't play Port as well as Wasteland and they have more dead draws with CotV @ 1. If they play 4x Wasteland and 2-3 Port then something like turn 1 Lackey, turn 2 Port swing, can cause problems if the Loam player doesn't have a Mox Diamond in play. If they do have a Mox then they just drop Goyf to stall long enough to cast DD or just play a Loam then cast DD for 3 the next turn but again nothing is set in stone and predictable that is why I don't like this matchup as much because neither deck has a very clear cut way to victory, they usually have to gain every inch; a fairly even matchup. I would agree with Elficidium that is is about a 60-40 matchup in favor of Loam and stays pretty much the same after SB. I have found that things generally stay the same after SB and I usually take out 3x CotV and put in 3x KGrip cause people ALWAYS bring in either Crypt or Leyline. Leyline is a LOT better against this deck. Another interesting thing about the goblins match, I have won at least 5 games based off or a turn 2-4 Krosan Grip on Aether Vial; for some reason I found this strange, maybe this disrupted their curve a little to much and kept a lot of pressure off of me, I don't know.

Aznopium

06-25-2008, 01:25 PM

hmm

sounds like we got a new playable card for r/g/b loam

Raven's Crime
Sorcery
Target player discards a card.
Retrace (You may play this card from your graveyard by discarding a land card in addition to paying its other costs.)

It plucks away memories like choice bits of carrion
Illus. Warren Mahy

Link (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=74037&d=1214367069)

Nihil Credo

06-25-2008, 01:34 PM

THEchubbymuffin

06-25-2008, 03:38 PM

I think its situational but still viable. It would be used mostly in the late game though when your opponent has few cards. At which point discard doesn't really effect the game in my opinion since they will mostly play what they draw.

BKclassic

06-26-2008, 12:49 AM

Worm Harvest seems closer to actually deserving a slot.

Worm Harvest 2 g/b g/b g/b
Sorcery Rare
Put a 1/1 black and green Worm creature token into play for each land card in your graveyard.
Retrace (You may play this card from your graveyard by discarding a land card in addition to paying its other costs.)

But I am not really sure how good Aggro Loam is at getting to 5 mana, and having 3 green no less. But this seems like it could really be a bomb, it has so much synergy with the deck. It might be worth it to revamp the deck to make something like this more practical. Possibly a win more, but seems worthy of a slot.

Roelke

06-26-2008, 04:31 AM

B: Target player discards a card.
BB: Target player discards two cards.
BBB: Target player discards three cards.

(assuming no need to Loam in the meanwhile)

It's not playable, in my opinion. If it had been a random discard, then yes. But at the opponent's choice it's too weak.

BBB1G: target player discards 3 cards.

I guess it will be a wrecking ball against landstill and MUC. So it might become a wish-target or a sideboard card.

Worm harvest might get played one or two times, since it has great synergy with dregde.

Both spells are very powerfull in 4# lands deck (or maybe in a deck like http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=17258 )

SnakeEater

06-26-2008, 11:12 AM

And one question:
Where exactly is the spell card, when I play Raven's Crime from the grave? Does it lie in the GY, or do I find it on the stack? Because, you know, if it magikali skips outta grave, than it is unextirpable.. unless there is another copy in the GY, of course...
The spell is on the stack. See Rule 409.1a (The player announces that he or she is playing the spell or activated ability. If a spell is being played, that card (or that copy of a card) physically moves from the zone it's in to the stack. It has all the characteristics of the card (or the copy of a card) associated with it, and its controller is the player who played it. If an activated ability is being played, it's created on the stack as an object that's not a card. If an activated ability is being played from a hidden zone, the card that has that ability is revealed. On the stack, the ability has the text of the ability that created it, and no other characteristics. Its controller is the player who played the ability. The spell or ability remains on the stack until it's countered or resolves.)
So you can do funny thinks with it, without giving the opponent the opportunity to remove the spell.

Although the spell isn't worth it to play, I think. Thoughtseize and even Duress is better than this. But maybe there will be another card with the "Retrace" ability which is more useful than the already known. The ability itself has a very good synergy with the deck.

adrieng

06-26-2008, 12:07 PM

According to me, worm harvest is the best thing loam players could have against standstill.
Standstill's player(UW) game plan against aggro loam was to resolve humility.
Now with this card you can ignore them and have an uncounterable recursive kill.I don't know how landstill players can solve this problem cause they now need to extirpate loam this card and burning wish...
This card, I think should be a one off with 2 gamble maindeck.
Personnally I am testing a white loam control deck with this card as a kill and humility maindeck. Don't know if it is better than aggro loam.

Illissius

06-26-2008, 12:07 PM

You use Duress/Thoughtseize/Therapy as disruption (most useful against combo decks), and Raven's Crime to win wars of attrition (against control decks). They don't fulfill the same purpose. You can, of course, fill the slot formerly filled by one with the other instead (or even with something completely different like Engineered Explosives or anything else), but you do this if you want to do something different with the slot, not the same thing better.

Mental

07-01-2008, 12:28 PM

So I was messing around with RGb Loam and this list seemed strong to me. However, I didn't do any of this knowing what the standard list was, so any critique would be helpful:

4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Taiga
2 Bayou
2 Badlands
3 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Tranquil Thicket
3 Forgotten Cave
2 Wasteland

4 Mox Diamond

4 Magus of the Moon
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Terravore
4 Countryside Crusher

4 Burning Wish
4 Thoughtseize
3 Life from the Loam
3 Devastating Dreams

SB
1 Life from the Loam
1 Devastating Dreams
1 Reverent Silence
1 Pyroclasm
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Krosan Grip
4 Extirpate

I don't mind playing both Pate and Chalice because I bring Pate in for one set of Match ups and Chalice in for another.

Also, reviewing this thread it seems that my manabase is a little unconventional. I just know a few things about it:
I want to play 5-6 Cycling lands, 2-4 Wastelands, and 1 Volrath's Stronghold.

Also, I don't notice Magus around here. Most of you seem to be playing something like Dark Confidant instead, which is pretty reasonable. I like Magus because when he's not expected (which he usually isn't), he utterly shuts down a good amount of the format. He has the same target on his head as Confidant, and the same impact on the game in most scenarios if he sticks for a while (i.e, you win), but he's in an easier color and is easier to protect. Also, you don't ever flip Terravores.

Thoughts?

Holiday

07-01-2008, 12:47 PM

How is your Ichorid match-up? I am having a difficult time deciding between Extirpate, Crypt, and Leyline for my SB. I don't really want to devote more than 4 slots for that one match-up, but I have seen a good amount of Ichorid lately.
What other match-ups do you board in the extirpates for?

Mental

07-01-2008, 12:50 PM

Ichorid and the Mirror. I can also bring it in against Survival, I guess, or Reanimator/TES. Generally I'd rather bring in Chalice against Combo/Thresh, though.

Holiday

07-02-2008, 01:46 PM

Mirror Match

I have never had to play a mirror match. It seems likely in the very near future we will all be seeing a lot more aggro loam.

What type of strategy would be useful in game 1?

What are the SB plans and strategy for game 2/3?

My build is a pretty standard RGb, with Chalice main, and 4 LotV, 3 Grips and an 8 card wish package in the board.

kabal

07-02-2008, 02:05 PM

My build is a pretty standard RGb, with Chalice main, and 4 LotV, 3 Grips and an 8 card wish package in the board.

What specially are you using black for?

Holiday

07-02-2008, 02:46 PM

Engineered Explosives main
Chainer's Edict and Leyline of the Void (although I hate to ever hardcast it,) in the SB.

Joon

07-02-2008, 03:03 PM

And Stronghold, I suppose.

Holiday

07-02-2008, 03:38 PM

Yes, VSH too.
Thanks, knew I forgot something...

DS2

07-03-2008, 09:40 AM

This is my version of aggro loam

Somebody some tips for MD and/or SB?

Lands

3 Wooded foothills
2 Bloodstained mire
1 Windswepth heath
3 Wasteland
1 forest
4 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Nantuko Monastary
1 Mountain
3 Tranquil thicket
3 Forgotten cave
1 Bayou
1 treetop village/tabernacle at pendrall vale/something else?

Creatures

4 Countryside crusher
3 Terravore
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Genesis

Spells

3 life from the loam
4 Mox diamond
4 Burning wish
2 Devastating dreams
4 Swords to plowshares
2 Seismic assault
2 Engineered explosives

SB

1 Thougthseize
2 Duress
1 Life from the loam
4 Leyline of the void
1 Reverent silence
1 Nostalgic dreams
1 Devestating dreams
1 Shattering spree
1 Pyroclasm
1 Haunting echoes
1 Tech=>don't knowwhat to choose here=>tips?

Holiday

07-03-2008, 01:14 PM

I've never actually tested Nantuko Monastary but it feels like it might be a dead card. I spose you could pitch it to a Mox early on if you get it.

You are running 25 lands and you might want to boost that up a little bit or eliminate the 2 Seismic Assaults, which look like they may be hard to cast with your current manabase. Also, casting the Haunting Echoes is going to prove difficult with 1 Bayou and 4 Moxes.

I would recommend cutting the Monastary for another Wooded Foothills.
You might want to run a 4th Wasteland in the last land slot.
Depending on how hard it is to cast a Seismic Assault you might want to run another source.

I like the rest of the maindeck. I haven't tested with Genesis but he's probably a good choice for decks that don't use Volrath's SH.

Haunting Echos totally owns sometimes, but it seems you might want to cut that, another SB slot, and fill those 2 slots plus your open slot with 3 Krosan Grips. An opponent's Leyline of the Void can really ruin your day.

SARCASTO

07-03-2008, 04:52 PM

A couple points of contention I have with people’s lists. I am not going to say I am an expert, but I played the deck in extended have top 8ed 4 35+ tourneys in a row, and just won a lotus at a 77 person tourney with my build of aggro loam. I have a few things that need to be discussed.

1. Why does everyone play Devastating Dreams main deck? Now before you say it is critical and that you need it, hear me out. First off it is terrible against Thresh for multiple reasons, first the copious amount of counters, and counter balance. Second because the black and white versions play cheap enough removal that you might just lose your guy in response, or get your guy countered. Third, goyf wrecks DD because this deck doesn't play any hard removal (besides explosives) to take it out before you dreams. Dreams just has to have such a specific scenario already to work, that in a format with pitch counters makes it not great to me. The other point about dreams is, against what decks that you want to dreams don't you have time to just wish for it? All the control, landstill, rock, sloooww variants give you ample time to wish for it and then dreams.

Another thing that puzzles me is why so many are running 7-8 crushers/ vores. In a deck with assaults that is 10 or 11 three mana spells in a deck that has 4 pieces of conditional accel 7 CIPT lands and 4 wastelands that it usually wants to use quite quickly. I started with that many threats but found that the games I lost I would get stuck with infinite 3 drops in my hand. I just don't see why this deck needs this many threats that are just big guys for 3. There have been very few situations where I needed a dude and couldn't find one relatively quickly but a lot of mulls from crusher vore vore hands or something of the like.

Some other debatable points of contention.
Chalice or not? I absolutely love chalice in this deck, I previously played with thought seize instead and can't imagine going back. Seriously getting random free wins by going chalice for 1 on the play vs. decks is ridiculous. It also gives you main board hate vs. combo which seems much more effective normally than taking out a card with seize. This card coupled with the thorns in the board give the deck a decent chance vs combo which is not often said by board control decks.

SB options Hull Breach? I used to have it to save space but what is it really good for? The 2 most important things to hit IMO are counterbalance and chalice for 2.... both which usually easily counter hull breach. I also have never hit 2 things with it. I think having spree and silence is much better because when you wish for these cards against certain matches it is a blowout (solitare, stax, affinity) where hull breach never is. I believe it is worth the extra spot.

Bob or no bob? While I do not think he is integral to the deck, I think he is definitely worth a spot. he makes the deck run if the loam engine is not online (or is removed) and gives other decks something to worry about while you cast other threats.

Nihil Credo

07-03-2008, 05:19 PM

1. Why does everyone play Devastating Dreams main deck?

Goblins, general aggro, any deck that loves to keep lots of lands in play (which does not necessarily imply slow decks). There's much more to the format than Threshold and Landstill. DDreams is your game-winning ticket against decks that can develop their board faster than you. Also, having two MD copies of Devastating Dreams frees up Burning Wish to tutor LftL whenever it isn't drawn, or it gets Extirpated.

Another thing that puzzles me is why so many are running 7-8 crushers/ vores. In a deck with assaults that is 10 or 11 three mana spells in a deck that has 4 pieces of conditional accel 7 CIPT lands and 4 wastelands that it usually wants to use quite quickly. I started with that many threats but found that the games I lost I would get stuck with infinite 3 drops in my hand.I can't say much other than this doesn't mirror my experience. Playing Chalice (counter), Goyf (killed), 3CC guy (killed), 3CC guy (killed), 3CC guy (ohshitI'mdead) is a common way to win games.

Incidentally, my manabase is:
4 [PR] Taiga
1 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [ON] Forgotten Cave
3 [TE] Wasteland
2 [UNH] Mountain
3 [ON] Tranquil Thicket
2 [UNH] Forest
2 [PR] Badlands
4 [PR] Wooded Foothills
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold

plus Mox Diamond. Perhaps yours is more aggressive?

Chalice or not? I absolutely love chalice in this deckDitto.

SB options Hull Breach? I used to have it to save space but what is it really good for? The 2 most important things to hit IMO are counterbalance and chalice for 2.... both which usually easily counter hull breach. I also have never hit 2 things with it. I think having spree and silence is much better because when you wish for these cards against certain matches it is a blowout (solitare, stax, affinity) where hull breach never is. I believe it is worth the extra spot.Ditto. Also Stax, Stompy, and Enchantress will *not* be intimidated by a single Hull Breach, but those spells cause much more trouble.

Bob or no bob? While I do not think he is integral to the deck, I think he is definitely worth a spot. he makes the deck run if the loam engine is not online (or is removed) and gives other decks something to worry about while you cast other threats.I think it's a choice between him and Engineered Explosives; I currently give the nod to the latter because I don't like losing to Counterbalance, Dreadnought, and Chalice (@2). Copy/paste: Also, having two MD copies of Devastating Dreams frees up Burning Wish to tutor LftL whenever it isn't drawn, or it gets Extirpated, so I'm less likely to need a secondary draw engine.

Volt

07-03-2008, 06:50 PM

ebbitten

07-03-2008, 09:06 PM

also if it does resolve vs thresh and you have one of your 3cc guys on the board they're pretty much guarenteed to become bigger than goyf.

HBspulse

07-04-2008, 07:00 AM

I agree with Sarcasto.

Devastating dreams is a nice wish target. When you have loam to (re)fill your hand. And crusher/vore on the table. And you are sure it doesn't get countered. And you don't play dark confidant. And ...

Mehh, I think you can only justify it's maindeck slot if you are playing in a metgame filled with pure aggro strategies such as goblins and elves.

I wouldn't want to miss dark confidant personally, and I play chalice in the board, but that's personally.

Jujuhawk

07-07-2008, 01:29 PM

Goblins, general aggro, any deck that loves to keep lots of lands in play (which does not necessarily imply slow decks). There's much more to the format than Threshold and Landstill. DDreams is your game-winning ticket against decks that can develop their board faster than you. Also, having two MD copies of Devastating Dreams frees up Burning Wish to tutor LftL whenever it isn't drawn, or it gets Extirpated.

Though I suppose this is a difference in metagames. My meta (also SARCASTO's meta) contains HUGE ammounts of thresh. Also lots of landstill and just counter-based decks. There are rarely goblins aside from 1 or 2 people that play it every tournament, and I WOULD play it but I miss the 1.5's frequently.

I have to agree with Pat here though. D-Dreams is rarely ever used. There are these situatuations that arise that may call for it just as a blowout card. These situations, however, RARELY arise. Obviously the card is good against gobs. If your meta is gobs infested, by all mean MD it. However, in a metagame full of thresh and landstill the card is just downright trash. Randomly you can get it off vs. thresh and wreck them, but this calls for them to have no CB, few cards in hand, etc. While it is possible to resolve one, it's VERY hard.

Also, regarding bob: Pat runs both E.E. and Bob. Bob is just TOO good not to play. The card advantage generated from him can just win you games like no other. And in a deck full of ways to generate card advantage he's still great. Turn 1 off of mox diamond is just such a bomb play. He can dig for a wish/lftl and he's a body which often times can be a good thing early against decks like landstill or thresh. Also, like he said, it allows your deck to run without the loam engine going. Now, it doesn't run as great, but it's better than just losing because you didn't draw life which I frequently see happening with other loam-based decks. Bob gives this deck resiliency. While minimal, it helps tremendously.

AngryTroll

07-07-2008, 03:21 PM

It makes me cry when I see Aggro-Loam decks not running DD.

Matchups where DD is amazing:
Rock (all flavors), Survival (all flavors), Goblins, Sui (Eva Green and Deadguy), Breakfast, Ichorid, Elves!, Meathooks, etc.

Matchups where DD will be countered, or they lose:
Thresh (all flavors), most Landstills

Matchups that don't care:
Most storm based combo? But even then you may be able to blow up a land or two and stop them.

Bob and DD don't play well together, which may be part of the reason some people are underwhelmed by the card.

Joon

07-07-2008, 03:26 PM

Against Combo DD is very likely to handle EtW Tokens, too.

Jujuhawk

07-07-2008, 04:09 PM

Matchups where DD is amazing:
Rock (all flavors), Survival (all flavors), Goblins, Sui (Eva Green and Deadguy), Breakfast, Ichorid, Elves!, Meathooks, etc.

Matchups where DD will be countered, or they lose:
Thresh (all flavors), most Landstills

Matchups that don't care:
Most storm based combo? But even then you may be able to blow up a land or two and stop them.

Bob and DD don't play well together, which may be part of the reason some people are underwhelmed by the card.

No, I'm underwhelmed because you don't need the card in the main. The card is meant for a random blowout and it sits in your hand half of the time for ever until you can actually use it to your advantage. Thus, it's put in the board as a wish target. Most of the time you have alot of turns before you actually need to D-Dreams. In order to use the card effectively you have to have an advantage in board position. Therefore you need a crusher / goyf / vore out and a mox diamond or something so you can continue to LFTL.

The only matchup where I would possibly want it in the main is against goblins since it wrecks their shit when they crap out their hand. Decks like rock and the likes often play creatures resembling a goyf of some sort. Turns out that shit is hard to kill with Dreams.

Against Combo DD is very likely to handle EtW Tokens, too.

Why even bother? Game 1 is a crapshoot. Your only way to win is getting mutliple chalices to buy time and getting a wish so you can clasm/d-dreams when they etw, or getting an early big vore or goyf. Pat (SARCASTO) just wished for clasm against TES when they turn 1'd for 12 dudes. Post-board in can get better with discard but it really comes down to their ability (or inability) to pilot the deck correctly.

AngryTroll

07-07-2008, 04:34 PM

...The card is meant for a random blowout and it sits in your hand half of the time for ever until you can actually use it to your advantage. ... Most of the time you have alot of turns before you actually need to D-Dreams. In order to use the card effectively you have to have an advantage in board position. Therefore you need a crusher / goyf / vore out and a mox diamond or something so you can continue to LFTL.

(combo matchup)
Why even bother? Game 1 is a crapshoot. Your only way to win is getting mutliple chalices to buy time and getting a wish so you can clasm/d-dreams when they etw, or getting an early big vore or goyf

Actually, with the huge land count, Life from the Loam, and Mox Diamond, you can often simply blow up all the land on the table and win from there, with or without a creature on your side of the table. DDing for all the creatures on the board and most or all of the lands in play is pretty amazing against everything. AggroLoam runs more lands than most decks in the format, plus LftL and Mox Diamond. Playing a land for the turn, DDing for all of your opponent's lands, and passing the turn with a land in play and a Loam anywhere means you should win. I do not think sitting on Dreams and waiting is the right play-you should blow up the board and win when it resolves.

Against combo, having Dreams main certainly isn't going to hurt, and those matchups need all the help they can get. It is an out to infinite goblin tokens, and may be able to nail all of their lands and give you enough time to win before they draw another land or two (looking at you, TES).

Volt

07-07-2008, 05:29 PM

Nihil Credo

07-07-2008, 06:52 PM

In order to use the card effectively you have to have an advantage in board position. Therefore you need a crusher / goyf / vore out and a mox diamond or something so you can continue to LFTL.

No, my experience matches AngryTroll's on this: after DD resolves, you will, in all likelihood*, have an advantage in board position.
Devastating Dreams is a Wrath of God that doesn't kill your creatures and an Armageddon that doesn't permanently kill your lands, and as such it should be used whenever it will give you enough of an advantage. Waiting to also have a lethal beater in play before casting it is just greedy.

*Yes, there is a small chance that your opponent rebuilds faster than you; that is why you shouldn't do a full-on Armageddon DD if you're winning already. When you're behind, however, it's one of the most lopsided gambles you could make in the format.

Pulp_Fiction

07-08-2008, 01:02 PM

Jujuhawk

07-08-2008, 01:27 PM

Devastating Dreams is a serious power-house card. It has won me numerous games and I would dare say I have cast it about 40-50% of the time without a threat on the board. But for those who seriously play this deck you will notice that you almost always win after it resolves (unless something shitty like a Tombstalker comes into play next turn). Against Thresh I will cast it game 1 when they are out of cards in hand but I am always a little scared. It is always sided out for Krosan Grip games 2 and 3 against counter-based decks because it is simply to marginal of a card to cast and Krosan Grip is almost always better; but you can still wish for it.

When they are out of cards in hand? So you basically have to be winning for the card to be effective is what you're saying?

If your meta is all Thresh and Counterbalance.dec then don't play Devastating Dreams maindeck. I personally have never heard of a meta where there are NO decks like Goblins, Affinity, Survival, or Rock running around (I guess your tournaments have like 10 people who play the same deck every time??) .... so if you ONLY play against Landstill and Thresh just run Krosan Grip or something like that main instead of DD but I personally think Devastating Dreams is too good in this deck to not be run since it is good against everything that doesn't run mass amounts of counterspells.

There are 2 or 3 goblins. No affinity (Affinity is garbage. :/) No survival, and like 1 or 2 rock decks every month. End of the month tourneys usually has 30-40 people, and the last one (the lotus one that SARCASTO won) had 78 people.

And krosan grip is awful. Cards like Bob, Chalice, and Explosives are much better. Explosives basically > thresh's creatures not to mention other deck's creatures. Chalice > 1 drops. Bob just flat out wins games with card advantage.

But for those who seriously play this deck you will notice that you almost always win after it resolves

What, you're saying he doesn't seriously play the deck after top 8ing like 5 consecutive 1.5's and winning a lotus? Not to mention about 3 PTQ top 8's with the deck?

Obviously you win after it resolves, but it almost always has to be cast when you're already at a slight advantage. Either having a dude that won't die, or having mox diamonds and life. In either of these cases you're generally already at an advantage and you're basically just sealing the deal.

jazzykat

07-08-2008, 01:59 PM

Volt

07-08-2008, 02:06 PM

Jujuhawk

07-08-2008, 02:13 PM

Here's his list.

Pat McGregor – Aggro Loam OBV

4 Burning Wish
3 Life from the Loam
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Countryside Crusher
2 Terravore
3 Seismic Assault
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Mox Diamond

4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Windswept Heath
4 Forgotten Caves
4 Tranquil Thicket
4 Wasteland
1 Volrath’s Stronghold
1 Forest
2 Mountain
2 Taiga
1 Bayou
1 Badlands

SB:
4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Krosan Grip
3 Pyroclasm
1 Life from the Loam
1 Shattering Spree
1 Reverent Silence
1 Devastating Dreams
1 Chainer’s Edict

Jujuhawk

07-08-2008, 11:48 PM

Well Pat played the DDreams MD version tonight. He cut bob for 2 DDreams a crusher and a land. He says he may up the crusher count to 3 or 4 since he is in love with the card.

He said his old list was alot better and DDreams MD was completely unecessary.

He went:

Round 1: Solidarity - 2-0
Round 2: Pitch World - 2-X
Round 3: Tendrils (Emidln's terrible deck. -_-) 2-X
Round 4: R/W Goblins (Me) 2-1

The only match where DDreams mattered was against me, and he had dubs clasm in his hand when he cast it anyway. :/. I guess it won 1 game vs. combo too I think. And it would be even worse at our normal meta since it's infested with thresh and landstill.

ebbitten

07-11-2008, 08:16 PM

not already having crusher count at 3 or 4 makes me seriously wonder what your decks are like.
Also he played against solidarity and pitch wolrd, 2 of the least seen decks that i know of so i think these results are far from conclusive.

Jujuhawk

07-12-2008, 12:02 AM

I lied, the crusher count is 3. He is thinking of bumping it to 4.

Also, have you forgotten how fucking awful this deck is against solidarity?

Shades

07-12-2008, 11:33 AM

I played Pat MCGregors exact list today to a 4-0 record in a small local tourney. I only replaced the Thorns with 3 Offalsnout and 1 Shriekmaw for the mirror and/or Dredge which I expected more (well, I knew that there would be no combo).

Round 1: Mono U Stasis 2-0
Round 2: 4c Zoo 2-0
Round 3: Burn 2-1
Round 4: Loam Mirror 2-0

The maindeck did fairly well for me. The chalices were great, the creature count as well. I really love the 3 Engineered Explosives here and i like the 27 lands.
I played Devastating Dreams once against Stasis, where it won me the game, but that was the only time I wished for it and I never regretted to not have some md.

Thanks Pat for this great list!

arsenalpow

07-13-2008, 02:44 PM

I lied, the crusher count is 3. He is thinking of bumping it to 4.

Also, have you forgotten how fucking awful this deck is against solidarity?

If you can manage to stick chalices at 1, and even better at 2, you should be able to put yourself in a good position to win

Jujuhawk

07-14-2008, 01:43 AM

Wish for a bounce spell, bounce, win.

Basically you bank on chalice and them not drawing wish.

arsenalpow

07-14-2008, 05:46 PM

solidarity will get that wish on turn 3 when loam is already pressuring the deck to win. Its not as easy as you make it seem.

Pulp_Fiction

07-14-2008, 10:26 PM

This deck has almost no chance of beating Solidarity and an even worse chance of beating Spring Tide because it is generally a little faster and will fizzle less. If they don't have a counter and you can resolve a DD for 2-4 then that alone will generally give you enough time to drop a threat and put them on a short clock. But they will almost always have an answer to 1x CotV and banking on drawing 2x CotVs both games is just not happening.

Now a good answer to the deck is running 1x Krosan Reclamation in the SB and 1x maindeck Volrath's Stronghold. It gives you a fighting chance but this matchup is still close to unwinnable for Aggro Loam. I suppose you could put 1x Gaea's Blessing in the SB but against Painter I prefer Krosan Reclamation because I may accidentally dredge up Blessing with Loam and I could be in a potentially worse situation than I was in before.

Jujuhawk

07-15-2008, 12:12 AM

solidarity will get that wish on turn 3 when loam is already pressuring the deck to win. Its not as easy as you make it seem.

What pressure? Our only hope is to get a crusher, and if we don't/it gets countered then they have at least 4 turns to win.

I honestly don't think you've even played against solidarity with this deck because the matchup is fucking abysmal. at least 85/15 pre-board.

arsenalpow

07-15-2008, 10:12 AM

Solidarity is a dead archetype at the moment, people have been trying to find a way to fight counterbalance but it seems pretty hopeless, there is no way the matchup is 85-15 in solidaritys favor. They still have to deal with your disruption (chalice, targeted discard, dreams) and win in the process.

I honestly believe that you shouldn't even worry about solidarity right now because counterbalances are EVERYWHERE. This is an environment where solidarity cannot operate effectively.

Aleksandr

07-15-2008, 10:46 AM

I honestly believe that you shouldn't even worry about solidarity right now because counterbalances are EVERYWHERE. This is an environment where solidarity cannot operate effectively.

OK, but is this environment healthy for AgrroLoam?

Typical Loam.dec: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=18147
Solidarity: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=16106

Look at "statistics and manacurve" option and compare the :2: (and :3:) slot. I do not feel that the Loam player will easily dodge C-Balance. Not to mention that he has much less chances to stop it.

Not that it means that Solidarity is viable.. But I do not think that the omnipresence of C-Balance decks is a reason to hype Loam..

EDIT: V. Shusher somehow changes this statement..

georgjorge

07-15-2008, 11:03 AM

technogeek5000

07-15-2008, 11:19 AM

I don't know, I worried a bit about it too, but somehow have yet to lose against a CBalance (no exaggeration). I guess the reasons for that are

a) You usually put pressure on the other deck in the form of land destruction and beats, so they don't have that much mana to spare to manipulate the top of their library at all times. That means that you can often bait a library manipulation (or putting Top away) with a Seize or Duress, then resolve a Loam (for Wastelands), Dreams or Confidant.
b) Aggro-Loam may only run seven cards with a cc of three, but all of them will win you the game if left unanswered, so resolving one can be enough.

Another topic...as I've seen that almost everyone runs Wish, how often do you find yourself Wishing for something other than Loam or Dreams, and when you do, does it have enough of an impact on the game ? Because after much consideration and testing, I now think that the difference between running Wish or maindecking DDreams and Deed instead is very small (if you're not playing in a Stax- or Enchantress-heavy meta) - what you really want to get with it is Loam or Dreams, and I find that with the seven cycling lands, Loam usually finds its way into your hand even without Wish.

First part QFT

Second Im gonna have to disagree with you. By running 3 of each maindeck and 4 wish you are effectively running 7 dreams and loam. It depends on your meta, but in mine about1 time out of every 3 games I will wish for something else. Yes, spree ends games, morningtide ends games, and silence ends games or gives you a chance at winning where otherwise their would be none. Their is dreadstill, ichorid, and enchantress where I play so my 5 card wishboard works out fine for me (loam, dreams, spree, morningtide, and silence). I dont run any more because I like to have sideboard options for combo and your right, you really dont wish for anything outside of the basic 4-5.

arsenalpow

07-15-2008, 11:35 AM

I was stating that aggro loam should not have to worry about solidarity because solidarity gets destroyed by counterbalance. Solidarity has been almost completed hated from the format by counterbalance and faster storm combos to a lesser degree.

Aggro loam is actually a perfect weapon to combat counterbalance and other threshold builds. If anything, aggro loam or white stax would be my weapon of choice if i knew the field would be threshold heavy.

Nihil Credo

07-15-2008, 11:47 AM

I just wanted to add that a) AL actually runs 10-12 3cc bombs (Crusher, Terravore, Assault) and b) Engineered Explosives is a terrific solution to Counterbalance.

Aleksandr

07-15-2008, 11:52 AM

I don't know, I worried a bit about it too, but somehow have yet to lose against a CBalance (no exaggeration). I guess the reasons for that are

a) You usually put pressure on the other deck in the form of land destruction and beats, so they don't have that much mana to spare to manipulate the top of their library at all times. That means that you can often bait a library manipulation (or putting Top away) with a Seize or Duress, then resolve a Loam (for Wastelands), Dreams or Confidant.
b) Aggro-Loam may only run seven cards with a cc of three, but all of them will win you the game if left unanswered, so resolving one can be enough.

Another topic...as I've seen that almost everyone runs Wish, how often do you find yourself Wishing for something other than Loam or Dreams, and when you do, does it have enough of an impact on the game ? Because after much consideration and testing, I now think that the difference between running Wish or maindecking DDreams and Deed instead is very small (if you're not playing in a Stax- or Enchantress-heavy meta) - what you really want to get with it is Loam or Dreams, and I find that with the seven cycling lands, Loam usually finds its way into your hand even without Wish.

First part: QFT, too..

Second part: Yep, it is very nice to have those 7 DD+LftL copies. And some of the not-so-common targets (like Spree and Silence) are the most powerful solutions one could need:

- Spree against Affi, CotV, Stax..
- Silence against Enchantress, Prisons, Leylines
- sometimes Pyroclasm against fast hordes (but I do not use one...)
- now Raven´s Crime for attrition wars with controls?
- Edict/Deathmark against big critters..

Even if you use the minimum Wishboard (LftL, DD, Spree, Silence) the improvement is obvious.. and four cards in SB do not clog it. Of course for Chalicesphere-heavy meta you may even use more than one Spree in SB to side them in instead of your own Chalices... (Or just play one Spree as Wish terget and side in EEs, Grips or Putrefies..)

I played with Wishes and without them... and I am much more happy with them.

GreenOne

07-15-2008, 01:25 PM

I don't see any discussion about the new retrace cards.
Is Raven's crime an automatic X of in a build?
What about Worm Harvest?

I'd play both in 1x maindeck and 0x side. What do you guys think?

Illissius

07-15-2008, 02:15 PM

Worm Harvest is very powerful, but slow. Aggro Loam has considerably less acceleration than Lands.dec does. My guess would be 1-2 maindeck, depending on the build (more aggressive ones might not want any), and maybe one more as a Wish target, though it's less powerful there because while Harvest can't effectively be countered (for long), Wish very well can be and frequently is.

But what about adding some Explorations (or even Birds of Paradise) alongside the Diamonds, and then playing more Harvests (say, 3)?

Jaiminho

07-15-2008, 02:26 PM

But what about adding some Explorations (or even Birds of Paradise) alongside the Diamonds, and then playing more Harvests (say, 3)?

You play around 20 lands you really want to have in play. The others are cycling ones and those you play if needed. Mox Diamond accelerates into one turn only, while not wasting cycling lands in play. Having both Exploration and Mox would make one of them less effective.

Illissius

07-15-2008, 02:39 PM

- If you draw either Mox or Exploration but not both, they're not going to conflict.

- If you draw both Mox and Exploration but not Loam, they will indeed be less effective than they could be on their own.

- If you draw both Mox and Exploration together with Loam, Loam will in all likelihood provide you with enough lands to make full use of both of them.

- If you draw neither Mox nor Exploration, well, obviously they aren't going to conflict then either. However, you will lack acceleration, and this case will occur more frequently if you don't run Exploration.

So while Exploration and Mox don't have great synergy with each other on paper, and cases where they conflict certainly do exist, they both have great synergy with the rest of the deck, and it might nonetheless be more advantageous to run both of them just to increase your odds of drawing at least one. The drawback I would be more concerned with in Exploration's case is the fact that it's card disadvantage which effectively "does nothing" besides accelerate you (unlike Diamond, the lost card is not a land but Exploration itself, so you can't recoup it with Loam*). I think that's what I would be evaluating when trying to decide if the card is worth running.

* Considering this further, though, you can sure Loam back a different land, which, while it might not be the same card you lost by playing Exploration, is +1 card advantage all the same, balancing out the -1 from Exploration. The case where Exploration is card disadvantage and Mox Diamond isn't is if you have Loam and, without Diamond, have less than three lands in your graveyard to target. How often would this come up? Now I'm really starting to be unsure about the true pros and cons of Exploration. Logic is hard.

georgjorge

07-15-2008, 04:22 PM

Second Im gonna have to disagree with you. By running 3 of each maindeck and 4 wish you are effectively running 7 dreams and loam.

Ah, I see...you run DDreams AND Wish. That sounds a bit excessive to me though, I'd run one Dreams alongside four Wish max. Anyway, I guess I'll test with Wishes some more then (it's just that I absolutely hate the speed you lose with them in an Aggro deck whose threats are already a bit expensive).

bruno_tiete

07-15-2008, 04:28 PM

Pulp_Fiction

07-15-2008, 04:32 PM

@georgjorge: Burning Wish is one of the main reasons why this deck is that good. I am constantly Wishing for different cards. Now I will say you mostly Wish for Loam and DD but I have Wished for every card in my SB more than 3 times. Reverent Silence is so good against Leyline, Shattering Spree is infinitely useful, especially considering people in my meta are running Vedalken Shackles, Affinity, Stiflenoughttrash etc. I recently put in Deathmark and that is really working for me. I have also won numerous games based on resolving Wing Snare!!

@sasa_batora: My meta is filled with GayCounterbalance.dec in all forms and to be totally honest the only times I have ever lost to one of them is when I am getting unlucky. That is it, if this deck is even operating at 25% of its normal effeciency it will still smash GayCounterbalance.dec. These matchups get even better when the KGrips come in.

@Illissius: Although I think Worm Harvest will be one of those win more cards it could be very effective against something like Landstill which is about a 50/50 matchup for Aggro Loam. I doubt either Raven's Crime of Worm Harvest will prove to be a good fit for this deck. Raven's Crime in particular I find useless, I mean who gives a shit what is in you opponent's hand when you can just DD their board away. Then someone would respond by saying "well Raven's Crime would be good against Thresh and other GayCounterbalance.dec variants." But since this deck already smashes those Raven's Crime just seems pointless. Worm Harvest is another story. It deserves testing and for sure it will be good in Lands! but I am not sure it is a good fit for this deck since this deck has no lack at all of serious threats and puts your opponent on a fast clock unlike Lands!. Worm Harvest could prove to be teh nuts but I wouldn't get my hopes up. It seems like just another "meh" kind of card. Now if Wizards make a sorcery Disenchant with Retrace FUCKING AUTO-INCLUDE!! That would be HOT!!!!

DeathwingZERO

07-15-2008, 05:07 PM

Ilissius: Isnt playing a bunch of lands somewhat unecessary in this deck?
I mean, the whole deck can be cast at 4 mana, including Wish into DD. I see no big use to more than 4 lands except for loam shenanigans and EE for 3 plus activation. Well, maybe that is enough, but it feels somewhat out of place here.

I do understand the effort. What is this deck to do turn 1 given no mox in the openning 7? Land, go? possibly EE against ETW tokens? Chalice at 0 on the play against combo? Seems pretty bad for an aggro deck.

The build I'm playtesting with is one Volt has built, and I would never be able to stress enough that if you want DD maindeck, you NEED those 27 lands. Between DD, Mox, and pitching to Assault, those lands tend to go very quick, and those are usually not the cycling ones. The other obvious answers to high land count are the two big beaters: Terravore and Crusher. Both play into each other with ridiculous synergy BECAUSE of the high land count making Crusher's triggers that much more devastating.

And yes, the deck's first turn has a worst case scenario of "Land, go". But usually if you are going to keep an opening hand that isn't fast (Moxless), it better be good. A couple cycling lands, a few Goyfs, or at least enough lands to drop your threats consistently on the next two turns. Realistically, "Land, go" isn't even a bad first turn for this deck, since it's curve is so tight. The only deck I wouldn't want to "Land, go" against is Goblins, and even then, you can probably get Goyf out on turn 2 as a 1/2 to block Lackey on the play. It's a good enough stall to get Crusher turn 3, and from there they just kinda cry. It is an aggro deck, but it's far from a weenie deck. Your opening hand doesn't need to wreck them immediately, a slow first turn won't lose you that much tempo.

adrieng

07-15-2008, 05:27 PM

I play a different version of aggro loam : I don't play mox diamond
I play aether vial. I don't play seimic assaut which is often win more :
you need lftl to play it and the rrr cost make it too slow without mox diamond to beat/race aggro or you have already won : 2 firestorm are good.
I play 4 dark confidant and 3 mongrel, obviously 4 crusher and 4 goyf and a lonly terravore.
This make aether vial a lot better you have a lot of 2cc creatures for vial.
I don't like terravore I often find it too slow : you need to have dredged at least twice or three time to make it good enough to trade with goyf.
Wild mongrel avoid opponents to attack with goyf. And there is an obvious synergry with both lftl and crusher. He often allowed me to race a stalker or combo/burn. I have fond aether vial better than mox : against control aggro control it is obviously better avoid standstill and counterbalance.
And I have found that with (multiple) mox diamond when you don't have loam it's a rather bad card.
I play 27-28(4 wasteland) lands don't no yet with 6-7 cycling lands.
4 burning wish and 3 DD.
I think there is no discussion about burning wish ; It seems to me an auto include : versatile and give you the 2 best cards of the deck.
I play a worm harvest target for wish it is GG against control.

bruno_tiete

07-16-2008, 12:14 AM

The build I'm playtesting with is one Volt has built, and I would never be able to stress enough that if you want DD maindeck, you NEED those 27 lands. Between DD, Mox, and pitching to Assault, those lands tend to go very quick, and those are usually not the cycling ones. The other obvious answers to high land count are the two big beaters: Terravore and Crusher. Both play into each other with ridiculous synergy BECAUSE of the high land count making Crusher's triggers that much more devastating.

By "playing land" I meant the special action of putting a land into play during your turn. I am not sure if it was obvious in my earlier post, but it seemed it wasn't as you seem to be refering to the land count for non-"playing" uses, which was kinda exactly my point.
This decks want too many of its lands in the yard or hand or, better yet, going back and forth in between them. That oposes somewhat to putting them into play. Am I wrong?

technogeek5000

07-16-2008, 01:03 AM

Ah, I see...you run DDreams AND Wish. That sounds a bit excessive to me though, I'd run one Dreams alongside four Wish max. Anyway, I guess I'll test with Wishes some more then (it's just that I absolutely hate the speed you lose with them in an Aggro deck whose threats are already a bit expensive).

Its not excessive though. You want a Dreams every single game you will play and most of the time you will want multiples. Also I dont really consider this deck Aggro. Its definately board control although it achieves board control by much different means then traditionally.

DeathwingZERO

07-16-2008, 03:14 AM

By "playing land" I meant the special action of putting a land into play during your turn. I am not sure if it was obvious in my earlier post, but it seemed it wasn't as you seem to be refering to the land count for non-"playing" uses, which was kinda exactly my point.
This decks want too many of its lands in the yard or hand or, better yet, going back and forth in between them. That oposes somewhat to putting them into play. Am I wrong?

Ya, I do see the context you were referring to now. The simple answer to your statement is really "yes and no". There will be times where you are going to want more than 4 lands out, specifically times where you want to Loam multiple times, Burning Wish -> something on the same turn, or recurring fatties that die via Stronghold (which would mean 6 lands on table at most, 3 for Vore and 3 for the activation of Stronghold, not counting moxen).

So realistically, yes the deck can function perfectly fine off 4-6 lands in play at any given time. But having the cushion of Illusius' suggestion wouldn't necessarily be a terrible thing if maindeck DD's are a factor (which I personally strongly advocate, it's AMAZING in general matchups as much as it is against the previously listed ones). Being able to out tempo the opponent because of your tight curve would make it an even more ridiculous game swinger than it already is.

I'm leaning towards it not being worthwhile to draw an otherwise dead card though, as it's really only an accelerant, and the deck really doesn't need it, per se. I would probably lean towards keeping Exploration in the Lands style decks, otherwise it's cramping already tight deck space here that's filled with threats, and I don't really know what the real benefit would be, as the definition of "speed" in this deck is multiple turns to activate Loam and Crushers, not necessarily accelerating into them faster.

technogeek5000

07-16-2008, 11:59 AM

I play RGw, and yes, its decent. I tested the confinement lock, but never really needed it as the things it is good against (aggro and control) are either excellent matchups already or have ways of removing it. I play maindeck swords, nantuko monastery, and a morningtide wishboard target for my white splash and it has worked really well for me.

technogeek5000

07-16-2008, 03:16 PM

I think that without chain of plasma it isnt worth playing. Doesnt do enough for 4 mana.

AngryTroll

07-16-2008, 05:08 PM

I think that without chain of plasma it isnt worth playing. Doesnt do enough for 4 mana.

It is worth noting that Swans do combo with Seismic Assault, although the color requirement is something like RRRWW. If you have two or three lands in hands, you will probably manage to draw a fair number of cards before running out of land. But that's what LftL is for, right?

That combo won't kill your opponent, but you should draw a large number of cards.

technogeek5000

07-16-2008, 05:18 PM

you do realize that if you have seismic assault with loam out, you dont need swans because you have pretty much already won. Also, Swans can fizzle with seismic assault if you dont have loam. Aaaand dont forget that the opponent can still target you 4 power flyer so its not like it has no drawback. Swans seems like a win more card in this deck where as you could be running more disruption to help you out with the more difficult matchups.

AngryTroll

07-16-2008, 05:41 PM

Plus, you'd have to cut actual bombs for the Swans, which seem playable, but not particularly amazing. I just wanted to point out that they aren't unplayable without Chain of Plasma.

Although the white splash gives Swords to Plowshares for removal, you lose Volrath's Stronghold (meh) and some of the stronger Wish targets in the board (after the two main wish targets, Loam and Dreams), like Deathmark and Haunting Echoes. A lot of RGb builds run Chalice anyway in the slot that Swords go into.

The 4x slot that can be Swords is a choice between Chalice, Swords, Thoughtsieze, or Terminate. Are there white Wish targets to swing the decision that way at all? I'd be tempted to say that Swords is behind Chalice and Thoughtsieze in power, and behind Terminate because of the 1x Stronghold and the better Wish targets.

technogeek5000

07-16-2008, 07:25 PM

Although the white splash gives Swords to Plowshares for removal, you lose Volrath's Stronghold (meh) and some of the stronger Wish targets in the board (after the two main wish targets, Loam and Dreams), like Deathmark and Haunting Echoes. A lot of RGb builds run Chalice anyway in the slot that Swords go into.

The 4x slot that can be Swords is a choice between Chalice, Swords, Thoughtsieze, or Terminate. Are there white Wish targets to swing the decision that way at all? I'd be tempted to say that Swords is behind Chalice and Thoughtsieze in power, and behind Terminate because of the 1x Stronghold and the better Wish targets.

It has been said in this thread before, but how often do you realisticly wish for something outside of loam and dreams. Even the other stronger wish targets (spree and silence) only get wished for occasionally in specific matchups. I will give you Haunting echoes because it is beastly versus landstill and other loam decks, but deathmark/edict/duress/thoughtseize etc... dont get wished for because either dreams does the job better or life from the loam takes priority/has more impact then them. I never liked chalice maindeck because it rarely comes down turn one when it has the most impact, and because its 2cc which means its fighting with loam and dreams which it often has to take a backseat.

White has Morningtide. Ichorid is a horrid matchup and a combination of Morningtide, swords, and other cards gives you a chance against them. Anyways here is the sideboard I run.

4 Leyline
4 Chalice
2 Krosan Grip
1 Loam
1 Dreams
1 Spree
1 Silence
1 Morningtide

Volt

07-17-2008, 12:35 AM

technogeek5000

07-17-2008, 12:57 AM

Thats nearly exactly my list, but dreams has more impact and is so much more devastaing then explosives so I recommend swapping 1 for 1. Other then that your list looks fine (I would suggest looking into -1 goyf, +1 terravore but thats up to you).

Jaiminho

07-17-2008, 01:27 AM

I find myself Wishing for Chainer's Edict and Unearth often enough to justify making room for them in my board. One thing I've noticed, though, is that I almost never use Volrath's Stronghold. Also, the idea of maindecking StoPs is pretty sexy. I'm going to try out your white splash. Something like this:

4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Forgotten Cave
3 Tranquil Thicket
2 Mountain
2 Forest
4 Taiga
2 Plateau
3 Wasteland

4 Mox Diamond
2 Seismic Assault

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Countryside Crusher
3 Terravore
1 Genesis

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Burning Wish
3 Life from the Loam
2 Devastating Dreams
2 Engineered Explosives

SB:
exactly the same as yours

Oh noes! Someone's using Plateaus!

Wouldn't Genesis fill the spot Volrath's Stronghold has tried to occupy? I mean, instead of 27 lands with Stronghold, it could be 26 along with Genesis. It takes the same 3 mana, but of a main color, to activate and get a guy in hand, instead of top. It's also dredgeable without Loam. Seems to me that Genesis > Stronghold in every aspect except that of making some mana.

Anyway, isn't Terravore as a 4-of a good thing? It's the best beater in the deck and the most effective creature also, at least against multi-colored control.

As a final note, I've playing this deck as of recently, so forgive me on the bullshit.

Volt

07-17-2008, 02:18 AM

THEchubbymuffin

07-17-2008, 02:38 AM

Oh noes! Someone's using Plateaus!

Wouldn't Genesis fill the spot Volrath's Stronghold has tried to occupy?

Anyway, isn't Terravore as a 4-of a good thing? It's the best beater in the deck and the most effective creature also, at least against multi-colored control.

In my list that I have been testing I run both Genesis and Volrath's as 1 of's to see which one I like better, and I can't make up my mind, Fetching a badlands for Volraths seems weaker than getting another Taiga, and the fact that its a creature thats overcosted but a 4/4 nonetheless is quite nice. But the problem that I see in Genesis is getting him out of my hand. I sometimes am forced to Dreams for more than necesarry because I need him out of my hand.

Also about Terravore, I run him as a 3 of because I hate paying 3 mana for a 2/2. And for the most part, the only time I would rather see him than a crusher is when I have a DD in hand.

DeathwingZERO

07-17-2008, 05:53 PM

In my opinion Volrath's is much stronger than Genesis. First, it's an instant speed activation, so it's almost always done on the opponent's turn. Second, it's a land, and can come back with Loam repeatedly. Third, it won't die to GY hate. Fourth, and most importantly, it doesn't require a random discard spell if you topdeck it. Playing Genesis for 5 mana means he's more likely to be StP'd than blocked, so that's usually a terrible play.

I'm still up in the air on the white splash being superior to the black. Both decks have instant speed removal, the difference being one removes the threat from the game at a cost of an extra turn (maybe) worth of swinging, for one less mana. However it does lose clutch Wish targets like Echoes, Edict, and Unearth. Morningtide also has severe disynergy with Genesis, so at any time that would be good (Ichorid, etc) you run the risk of hitting one of your only recursion outs, and it also cripples 2/3 of your beaters (Vore & Goyf).

Nihil Credo

07-17-2008, 06:31 PM

DeathwingZERO

07-18-2008, 12:43 AM

Morningtide's basically ONLY use is the Ichorid matchup, where you don't care about killing off your Vores if it means you Wit's End your opponent.

In fact, an option I'm experimenting with is a singleton Plateau for Morningtide purposes (Ichorid = no LD) while otherwise keeping to the black splash both MD and SB.

I would actually prefer that. The manabase can support another dual that's not green (I've generally never had problems with 2 Taiga's and a Forest in play to make up for green necessities, and almost always will fetch Badlands as my second dual choice anyway), and you still have the power black supports.

I'm really of the impression that the matchup may just be considered a muck. The StP's do seem to work pretty well to stop Ichorid recursions, but there's nothing you can do to stop them from assembling their combo fast (even Waste lock takes time to set up and isn't a guarantee), and they can generally slow play into Morningtide and force you to nuke them prematurely out of fear that they will go off next turn.

Does anybody have any rough percentages of pre/post board that gives an idea how bad the match is? I've never played the two together and have a lot more data of playing Ichorid than Aggroloam.

Pulp_Fiction

07-18-2008, 04:21 AM

My list has been posted on here earlier, I run Chalice main and 12 creatures and the only time I win against Dredge is when they mull into nothing. Seriously, out of around 30 games pre-board I think I won 1 (not including Dredge mull-into-oblivion), and that was when I was able to Cranial Extract Bridge and block Ichorids with better creatures. Chalice at 1 has almost no effect on the deck.

kabal and whienot both took their builds of Aggro Loam to our local tourney a while ago and both lost to Dredge and they both ran Leyline of the Void in SB. I ran Leyline and didn't have to play Dredge once in a tourney in the solid 6+ weeks I continuously brought the deck (everyone kept bringing Thresh-like decks). I felt like the SB was just dead in those 4 slots because I never sided it in once so I cut Leyline and said fuck the Dredge matchup and will take it as an autoloss because even with Leyline you can still lose to Dredge. The only thing that will 100% beat Dredge is turn 1 Chalice @ 1 and open with Leyline; but this is assuming they don't play Ancient Grudge.

The Dredge matchup is so horrid I really wouldn't even dedicate SB slots toward it. One wish target like Morningtide would be all I would want to do. Cut 1 basic for a Plateau to cast it or something. Pre-board with Leyline in the SB the matchup is around 60-55% in favor of Dredge. Because this is all they have to do; wait a few turns, assemble a solid hand, play a land, Chain Leyline back to ur hand, drop LED and go nuts. I am not going to play Leyline because I find it pointless in every other matchup. It is OK at best against storm combo, horrid in the mirror (KGrip is 1,000,000,000 times better boarded in than Leyline), and won't guarntee you a win against Dredge.

I suppose you could test out Yixlid Jailer as it is a lot easier to re-cast if it is Chained back to ur hand and they don't win that turn. But I really have such a problem dedicating 4x SB slots to just 1 matchup, especially if that matchup is just abysmal to begin with and those cards don't even make it at least somewhat favorable. Honestly I think Morningtide + Plateau is the best option.

DeathwingZERO

07-18-2008, 05:00 AM

So Jailer would shut off their deck pretty well, but wouldn't it also shut off Loam? Kinda puts you in topdeck mode against them hoping they don't have the random Darkblast or bounce spell EoYT.

kabal

07-18-2008, 10:12 AM

kabal took their builds of Aggro Loam to our local tourney a while ago and both lost to Dredge and they both ran Leyline of the Void in SB.

Actually out of the 3 times I have played Aggro Loam in a tournament, I have only faced Dredge once and won. LotV was key in my win game 2. Game 3 was won because my opponent mulled to 5 to get an answer to LotV. In process, they kept a mediocre hand which turned out to give me a enough time to win.

Pulp_Fiction

07-18-2008, 02:26 PM

@kabal: I swear it was you, did it happen to Matt twice then? I never had the dispriviledge of playing against Dredge with Loam in a tournament before and you guys are the only ones I know who brought Aggro Loam up once or twice. However, this past week Kevin and David brought it up and Josh brought some Loam variant. Look what I started. If you were curious the top 4 was Belcher (Charles), horridbluecontrol.dec, UWGB Fish (Zack), and GWr Zoo (me). I lucksacked out against Aggro Loam with Zoo. It was sick, he didn't play Chalice @1 when it mattered or even a single DD in any of the 3 games. Probably should have mulled into DD but whatever, Zoo is fast as hell and Lightning Bolt usually kills the early blockers Loam can drop turns 2-3.

georgjorge

07-18-2008, 05:23 PM

I have thought about two not-so-obvious choices fo Loam.

2) Phyrexian Arena? Look, I know about Dark Confidant. And I know that DC can attack. And I also know that with the decks curve, he often brings card for free..
But! If you look at the curve carefully, you must spot the ammount of cc3 and esp. cc2 cards. What is the average life-loss of Confidant per turn? Nearly half the deck is :2: or :3:...
With ass of 1, Confi dies to every removal imaginable, even ours DD. But less ppl play maindeck enchantment removal...

That would take the build more in a controllish direction, as you then would often play Arena instead of a beater when you reach three mana (the 3cc slot is rather clogged, even though I don't play Assault). So I can imagine it in a build with Worm Harvest, Exploration and other more controllish stuff, but not in the version that seems to be the most popular one, with seven or eight big beaters. I play Confidant in that version precisely because it fits the mana curve so well, not because I really NEED the card draw so much (Loam itself is nearly enough card advantage for an Aggro deck).

DeathwingZERO

07-19-2008, 05:53 AM

Aj-capra

07-19-2008, 06:56 AM

Hi people.

I'm testing this list now!!!

// Lands
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
2 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [TE] Wasteland
2 [R] Taiga
3 [ON] Tranquil Thicket
4 [ON] Forgotten Cave
1 [LRW] Swamp (1)
2 [LRW] Mountain (1)
5 [LRW] Forest (1)

// Creatures
4 [OD] Werebear <--- I haven't a playset of tarmo yet.
4 [MOR] Countryside Crusher
1 [OD] Terravore
1 [FD] Eternal Witness

// Spells
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [JU] Burning Wish
3 [TO] Devastating Dreams
4 [8E] Blood Moon
3 [10E] Seismic Assault
3 [RAV] Life from the Loam

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TO] Devastating Dreams
SB: 1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
SB: 1 [10E] Pyroclasm
SB: 1 [PS] Hull Breach
SB: 1 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 1 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 4 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [SHM] Vexing Shusher
SB: 1 [DIS] Crime/Punishment
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree

In my metagame chalice and blood moon main, are very very good because there're a lot of ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh e stax and to have a 50% possibility to win game one it's good!!!

In SB crime/punishment is a little PD.
I think to change 2 tormod for 2 whell of sun and moon.

In MD I can play 2 blood and 2 maugs of the moon,too.

Nihil Credo

07-19-2008, 11:16 AM

Hey Aj,

the list looks mostly fine to me, however, I'd play two more Terravores, cutting Werebears for it. It's not much worse in the early game, because a turn 2 Werebear will be a 1/1 and only good for mana production anyway; but when you get to three mana, there is a LOT of difference between a 4/4 and a 13/13.

Also, I think you could cut a few of those Wish targets. To begin with, Ancient Grudge isn't a Sorcery, so it doesn't belong. Do you need both Pyroclasm and Firespout? And since you have Shattering Spree, Reverent Silence is probably more useful than Hull Breach.

BTW, will I see you in Roncade tomorrow? I hope so.

Aj-capra

07-19-2008, 01:32 PM

Pulp_Fiction

07-19-2008, 03:00 PM

I am of the feeling with this deck that whatever doesn't get damage through really isn't worth considering. Elements like Exploration and Phyrexian Arena just seem like cool things, not really anything that will speed the deck up, or get it's creatures through more consistently.

With that said, I'm not really sure there's anything I'd change to the R/G/b version that I've been testing with, other than sideboard options. Namely having 4 Leylines and 4 Grip, I'm considering ditching the LotV just because Dredge is already such a beating of a match. What would people recommend for the 4 slots?

This is the exact SB I run and it works fantastic:

3x Krosan Grip
3x Cranial Extraction
1x Deathmark
1x Chainer's Edict
1x Reverent Silence
1x Shattering Spree
1x Wing Snare
1x Meltdown
1x Devastating Dreams
1x Life from the Loam
1x Krosan Reclamation

Krosan Reclamation and Meltdown are metagame slots since there is a lot of Affinity and Painter played but I swear by everything else. The single Krosan Reclamation is REALLY good against Painter so long as you play 1x Volrath's Stronghold. I have won numerous games based solely on Cranial Extraction resolving! It is a great card and I recommend people test it out.

However, something that is a good idea to test out is 1x Morningtide in the slot of Meltdown or Deathmark. Just cut 1x basic land from the list or your 4th Taiga for a Plateau.

Illissius

07-21-2008, 07:18 PM

This build (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=18315) just won a 76 player tournament with an unusual card choice: four Aether Vials. Genius or no?

Nihil Credo

07-21-2008, 07:57 PM

Quite possibly genius. Obviously, he's making the deck a shitload more powerful in the abstract, since it can now drop fat at the same time as it performs all the Loam tricks (Wastelock + a threat a turn sounds delicious). The question now is resilience: I never tried a Vial version because to make it worth it I'd have had to cut Chalice and play Confidant (sure, that's feasible) but also cut Explosives to make room - which I wasn't ok with, given the existence of Counterbalance and secondarily Chalice@2.

But playing Vial means you have the opportunity to just plain ignore Counterbalance. Sure, I'd rather have Explosives to get rid of it at any point of the game, but if there's not too much Thresh/Dreadstill in the Spanish meta (although, according to Godryk's blog, that doesn't seem to be the case (http://sololegacy.blogspot.com/2008/07/legacy-tier-decks-julio-2008.html)).

In short, I'm definitely going to test Muntada's list.

Illissius

07-21-2008, 08:25 PM

The deck has a shortage of really good one drops, and is if anything a bit slow and mana intensive (with both Loam tricks and monsters tying up mana), so Vial does seem like an awesome fit. I'm now pissed at myself for not having thought of it first.

Couldn't you continue to play Explosives, in the Thoughtseize slot, say?

Pulp_Fiction

07-21-2008, 08:48 PM

That build seems very sub-par to me. I have not tested it out so I can't say this with certainty but as far as the creatures he plays, the lack of EE and DD and instead running Dark Confidant and Aether Vial? I appreciate the direction he is trying to take the deck in, make it more "super aggro" and "super disruptive" at the same time. But I personally think this is one of those decks that is either on or not. I don't think it has the nice middleground that a more traditional Aggro Loam build has. It seems like this build is gonna be more like Dredge in that it is either rocking the opponent up or sitting there doing nothing. Where as the overall consistency of traditional Aggro Loam just simply wins games.

The reason I say this is that the deck only draws relevant cards. Later on in the game when you start drawing more Confidants and Vials it is gonna suck. I also imagine this deck mulligans quite a bit more than the more controllish builds. And WTF is with 3x Crusher?? The only creature that should be a 3x of is Terravore simply because he sucks in the opening turns and roxors later on.

Illissius

07-22-2008, 01:03 PM

Other additional creatures you could play besides Confidants to pad the creature count: Werebear, Wild Mongrel, Magus of the Moon.

arsenalpow

07-23-2008, 09:21 AM

If you are playing RGb I think a certain amount of the deck is set in stone.

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Countryside Crusher
3 Terravore

4 Mox Diamond

4 Burning Wish
2 Devastating Dreams
3 Life from the Loam

3 Seismic Assault
(+7 MD cards)

3 Taiga
1 Badland
4 Forgotten Cave
3 Tranquil Thicket
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Volrath/s Stronghold
(+4 Lands)

You have 7 maindeck cards to work with, which means either chalice, discard, removal, board sweep, additional DD or vore

Then depending on how you gear your maindeck you will need to add to your manabase accordingly (more basics, plateau and bayou)

In an uknown meta im not sure if chalice is the answer there, i think targeted discard might be more useful.

Nihil Credo

07-23-2008, 09:41 AM

In an uknown meta im not sure if chalice is the answer there, i think targeted discard might be more useful.

Ditto. Particularly because of the decks he listed...

(I expect one-to-two-of Ichorid, Affi, NQGw, Stax, MBA, Goblins, Tress, Painter..)

...most of them won't play Extirpate in the SB, which is one of the major reasons to run Chalice; and only a couple run StP, which is the other major reason.

Illissius

07-23-2008, 11:13 AM

I think I've seen the card in a few sideboards already, but Gaea's Blessing can serve dual purposes as weak* graveyard control for Wish and a card you side in against Painter decks.

* But I've seen people play freaking Decompose which isn't so much better. There really isn't much else if you don't want to splash for Morningtide or play Haunting Echoes.

technogeek5000

07-23-2008, 11:24 AM

Does that really work though. I mean, couldnt they just grindstone you endlessly until Gae's blessing is on of the last 2 cards and then you lose anyway? Or am I wrong.

diffy

07-23-2008, 11:28 AM

Does that really work though. I mean, couldnt they just grindstone you endlessly until Gae's blessing is on of the last 2 cards and then you lose anyway? Or am I wrong.

Gaea's Blessing is a triggered ability - this is the clue to answering above question.
If someone mills you with a Grindstone + Painter in play, and if a Gaea's Blessing is put into your graveyard from your library this way, its ability will trigger. The Grindstone activation will continue and only when it has resolved (i.e. when there are no cards left in your library) will the Blessing trigger resolve and your graveyard be shuffled back into your library.
Gaea's Blessing does therefore help against Painters Combo, the main problem is that they are likely to board in Tormod's Crypts or Extirpates against you which both stop Blessing by removing it from the graveyard before its trigger resolves.
Conclusion: it's not the best hate but it can steal games if your opponent doesn't see it coming or if you don't give him the time to find his anti-hate cards.