[Deck] Dump Truck

[Benie Bederios]

Current List

Main Deck

3 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Wasteland

2 Exalted Angel
4 Meddling Mage
3 Shadowmage Infiltrator
3 Jotun Grunt

4 Swords to Plowshare
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Vindicate
3 Daze
3 Duress
3 Stifle
1 Smother
2 Engineered Explosives

Sideboard

3 Divert
4 Engineered Plague
2 Extirpate
3 Pithing Needle
3 Blue Elemental Blast

Now testing

Tarmogoyf instead of Jotun Grunt

Extirpate instead of Crypt in SB

Veldalkan Shackles somewhere

The Primer is based on the old list and not the current one

History

I don’t know much about the history of Dump Truck. It was originally a three color Extended deck, with cheap answers and Exalted Angel as win condition. The combination of colors allowed it to play powerfull cards like Vindicate and Meddling Mage. Anyway the deck was ported to both Legacy and Vintage. In Vintage it was a reasonable deck, Mostly due to Mana Drain and other powerfull cards like Yawgmoth’s Will and Balance. I could find only one top eight of Dump Truck in Legacy and that is 3 years ago. Here is a link to that deck: http://www.germagic.de/dc/deck.php?id=2169.

I know present to you Dump Truck 2007

3 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
2 Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp

2 Exalted Angel
4 Meddling Mage
3 Shadowmage Infiltrator
3 Jotun Grunt

4 Swords to Plowshare
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Vindicate
3 Daze
3 Duress
3 Smother
2 Engineered Explosives

Way to play

The deck plays out as a fast control deck or a slow aggro-control deck. You normally answers the threads the opponent plays for the first few turn and try to resolve a beater. With Shadowmage Infiltrator you can gain card advantage over most deck and answer any card that might be a problem. This deck can play a slow game, where you use Engineered Explosives and Shadowmage Infiltrator, to gain card advantage and overwhelm them with threads and answers. It can just as easy play the beatdown role, with cheap threads and tempo disruption

The Mana

19 lands seems a little light for a slow aggro-control deck, but it hasn’t been a problem so far. The curve is still low with only Exalted Angel as an expensive creature. Two Islands and two Plains and a single Swamp make sure you can play every spell of your deck of basic lands. The seven fetches smooth out the base nicely.

The Beats

The deck plays seven utility creatures and five large beaters. Shadowmage Infiltrator is the draw engine of the deck. it is chosen over the cheaper Dark Confidant for three reasons. First of all it has a large ass, what means he doesn’t die against Mogg Fanatic or Fire // Ice. The second reason is Exalted Angel and Force of Will. This gives me six +4 mana spells with only Brainstorm to stack your library. The last reason is Engineered Explosives. It allows you to play it for 2 without loosing your draw-engine. The second Utility creature is Meddling Mage. It is a 2/2 for 2 mana and has a very nice ability.
The large beaters are Exalted Angel and Jotun Grunt. Exalted Angel wins just games. When you get it in to play it can beat for a lot of damage, while gaining life. Beating for a difference of 8 life a turn is huge. Jotun Grunt is more or less a metagame call. It is nice against fast combo decks, because it puts them on a serious clock. Also with the number of decks utilizing the graveyard (Thresh, Survival, IGGy-Pop, Ichorid) this can really be a house. But even if it stays around 3 turns, before you can gain cardadvantage with Shadowmage Infiltrator it has done it’s duty. Late game it can put your needed spells back in your library.

The Counters

Force of Will is still one of the best cards in magic. It allows you to tap out, without the danger of an opponent playing something bad. Daze is the other free counter at hand. This is a difference with earlier Dumptruck lists, wich only played Force of Will as free counter. It allows you to tap out more often, while giving you protection. Other options for this slot are Stifle or Spellsnare. The last counter is Counterspell, wich is the second best counterspell Legacy has.

The Removal

There are still a lot of decks around that play creatures, so this deck packs 7 creature removal spells. Swords to Plowshare is simply the best. For a single mana, it get rid of creature for good. Smother is the second removal spell. It kills most creatures in the format for 2 mana. This could be swapped for Ghastly Demise or Diabolic Edict. Vindicate is third removal spell. This card is never dead. It can kill any permanent in play, so the deck doesn’t need to play Disenchant to stop artifacts or enchantments. The final removal is Engineered Explosives. The deck can lay it down from 0 to 3 mana and blow things up like Goblin tokens to Tarmogoyf.

The other

Brainstorm is the only draw in the deck with Shadowmage Infiltrator. This is a little light, but none of the other draw spells makes the cut. Fact or Fiction is to slow and this deck can’t take the advantage out of Serum Visions or Portent as Threshold can do.

Matchups

Instead of giving percentages, I only going to give the basic plan and board options against decks.

Goblins

Preboard it is a tough matchup but not unwinnable. The trick is to stay alive until you can get an unmorphed Angel in play. You have 10 spot removal and 2 semi Sweepers. The smaller creatures can hold of the horde. Be careful that Jotun Grunt is the only creature( next to the Angel) who can block a Piledriver. If you survive until the Angel you’re in good shape. Postboard it gets a lot better. You gain Blue Elemental Blast as well as Engineered Plague. Duress goes out, because it is quite weak against a deck with 30+ creatures. Counterspell isn’t powerfull too. Only two Meddling Mages are removed because they provide a solid body.

Board:
-2 Meddling Mage
-3 Counterspell
-3 Duress

+4 Engineered Plague
+4 Blue Elemental Blast

Thresh

The mainproblem of Thresh is that it looses to control decks. That’s why you must take the role of the control player. If you can get an Infiltrator online they will loose. Jotun Grunt also helps in keeping them of Thresh. The 12 pieces of removal will come in handy against them. Postboard you gain Tormod’s Crypt and If needed the third Engineered Explosive so you can completely wreck there board and Graveyard. A single Meddling Mage goes out, because you can’t name too much, without stopping your cards too.

Board
-1 Meddling Mage
-1 Vindicate

+2 Tormod’s Crypt

Uwb Fish

The decks are quite similar only you play a little more control for fewer beaters. Engineered Explosives is a house here, because it kills of more than one creature 90% of the time. Meddling Mage can name Swords to Plowshare and render them without removal so Exalted Angel will win the game. Be careful of Jitte though. You can’t bring in a lot against them, and neither can they. Pithing Needle can come in if you fear Jitte and the third Engineered Explosive can come in.

Board
-2 Meddling Mage
-1 Vindicate

+2 Pithing Needle
+1 Engineered Explosives

Faerie Stompy

Allthough Chalice for 1 doesn’t hit to many cards( compared to Threshold) it hits your best answer against them, Swords to Plowshare. You must remember the deck is creature light, so if you can keep them of creatures you are in good shape. Exalted Angel thrumps all of there creatures. Engineered Explosives can get rid of Chalice luckely. Postboard you don’t need to bring in much. Your MD is already optimal against it. You can bring in Pithing Needle to stop there Equipments, but it gives you more 1 mana spells. Jotun Grunt isn’t really good, because most of there creatures have flying.

Board
-3 Jotun Grunt
+3 Pithing Needle

Bw Confidant and Red Death

Allthough they play quite different, I’ve put them in the same category. The thing is, Discard and Land Destruction is bad for you. Suicide Black was designed to beat control and those decks both does. Against Red Death can an Angel steal a game. Try to hold of there threads as soon as possible so you stay out of burn reach. Bw Confidant has got about a same clock as you does. If they can’t put down a decent clock or can’t overwhelm you with disruption you might win. I’ve looked for answers for the board, but couldn’t find one. If there is a lot of those decks in your meta you’d be better of playing another deck.

Board
none

Ichorid Combo

Ichorid is bad news for control, because it doesn’t need to play a lot of spells. The good news is the combo versions plays more spells. Lion’s Eye Diamond is a card you rather counter. Jotun Grunt is nice in two ways. First it can put Dredgers on the bottom of the graveyard. With most lists playing no fetches this can be problematic. It can also die during your upkeep removing some Bridges from the game. Dread Return and Cabal Therapy are 2 cards the opponent want to resolve, so can be handled by Meddling Mage. Post board you have can board in Engineered Plague and disable there Ichorids. Next to that Tormod’s Crypt comes in anyway.

Board
-3 Vindicate
-3 Smother

+4 Engineered Plague
+2 Tormod’s Crypt

TES and IGGy-Pop

The “slow” combo decks. The both pack disruption you really hate: Orim’s Chant. This is a must counter, even if it’s your last counter. Meddling Mage is a house here, if you can gues right. Against TES the most important cards are Infernal Tutor and Burning Wish. Or you can go for Tendrils of Agony and Empty the Warrens. Duress helps out making the right Descision. Jotun Grunt is very good in this matchup because it sets the opponent on a quick clock. Post board the opponent gets Dark Confidant and/or more Red Elemental Blasts. You can remove the Smothers for some extra hate. Swords to Plowshare stays in because it hits there Confidant and Xantid Swarm. Engineered Explosive can get rid of Goblin tokens as well as mana artifacts. Bad players sometimes play LED before a Rite of Flame or Duress and you are able to blow up Explosives and watch them Fizzle.

Board
-3 Smother
-1 Swords to Plowshare

+1 Duress
+2 Tormod’s Crypt
+1 Engineered Explosives

Belcher and Spanish Inquisition

The fastest decks in the format. The nice thing is they don’t play as much disruption as the other decks. The bad news is, that they can kill you before you can get your hate online. If you can stop there keycards and slow them down, you can kill them. Postboard you get the same as against the other combo decks. But you can add Pithing Needle against Belcher.

Board
-3 Smother
-2 Swords to Plowshare( against Belcher)

+1 Duress
+1 Engineered Explosives
+3 Pithing Needle( against Belcher)

Cephalid Breakfast

This combo deck works different than the storm based once. To win they need to resolve a single card: Dread Return. The first Mage normally names that card. If you can protect it your set. Naming the Cephalid and En-Kors isn’t that powerfull because they can Vial them in. Also well timed removal will set them back a turn too. After boarding you get Pithing Needle wich can name the En-Kor and Vial. Out goes the Vindicates because they are Sorcery speed removal.

Board
-3 Vindicate

+3 Piting Needle

Solidarity

This is a horrid matchup, luckely it is very rarely played and even rarer by good pilots. Your clock is simply to slow to matter. Just beat down as fast as possible. You need double mage to win( Brain Freeze and Cunning Wish) but the best cards to name are normally High Tide and Meditate. Jotun Grunt makes sure they need to draw you out with Stroke of Genius. You can’t bring much against them only a single Duress.

Board
-1 Smother

+1 Duress

Landstill

Another matchup I can’t really predict. The good thing is you have a lot of instant removal that can kill the manlands. Next to that you have more counters. The bad news is they have a drawengine that is bad for you, a decent amount of removal and some very ugly enchantments and artifacts. Meddling Mage can name Standstill, Pernicious Deed and Crucible of Worlds. You cant’t get much out of the board. Pithing Needle is decent, but not more than that.

Board
-3 Smother

+1 Duress
+2 Pithing Needle

With all those matchup the sideboard will look like this.

1 Duress
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Engineered Plague
2 Tormod’s Crypt
3 Pithing Needle
4 Blue Elemental Blast

Allthough this list is quite worked out, it isn't flawless. I would like to here your advise about the deck. To get the discussion( hopefully) I have some questions.

1. How much lands would you play? Is 19 enough, or would you play more?

2. Dark Confidant or Shadowmage infiltrator? and why?

3. What is the third counter after Force of Will and Counterspell? Spellsnare. Daze or Stifle? How much would you play of each?

4. What creature removal should be played next to Swords to Plowshare? Smother, or is Ghastly Demise or even Vendetta better?

5. What cards should you put in the SB, more combo hate or more specific answers like extirpate?

Well... Thanks in advance

BB

[C-Aleric]

1. How much lands would you play? Is 19 enough, or would you play more?

2. Dark Confidant or Shadowmage infiltrator? and why?

3. What is the third counter after Force of Will and Counterspell? Spellsnare. Daze or Stifle? How much would you play of each?

4. What creature removal should be played next to Swords to Plowshare? Smother, or is Ghastly Demise or even Vendetta better?

5. What cards should you put in the SB, more combo hate or more specific answers like extirpate?

1. I like 19. Your curve seems okay for 19. You'll probably be hitting 4 land when you want to morph. The basics are a good call. However, if you chose to play stifle, this list could greatly benefit from Wasteland. That would give you a very sneaky/dirty land denial package with Vindicate on top of that. I don't know exactly what I'd change to add this, however it would probably be losing a couple basics for 3-4 Wastelands, and perhaps dropping a spell or two. 21 Lands total with Wastelands included should be enough. Maybe 22.

2. I really think a case could be made to run both in the main. Meddling Mage in a lot of meta's isn't very good against a lot of decks, and could be in the board. Confidant's are just good. They get a lot of burn/swords sent their way, and this effectively can help with getting angel down. However, the damage you'll be taking from the E-Angel/Force is very bad occasionally. So the list would need to have some more tools to run Confidant well. Therefore I like Shadowmage main right now.

3. This is a lot of metagame preference. I think if I were to run this deck, I'd add in Stifles, and Dazes, and take out Counterspells. I'd have Wasteland/Stifle/Vindicate to make my Dazes relevant later on in the game.

4. Next to Swords in this deck, Smother is very good. Ghastly Demise has limited use when it's coupled with Jotun Grunt. In this deck, you want to have your Grunts sticking around for a whlie, so I can't see Demise being a good choice. I wouldn't think Vendetta would out do Smother right now either. Smother is hot in the meta right now, and probably should see more play than it does.

5. I can see how Extirpate could earn a slot here. Especially if you are trying to be an ass with mana denial, Extirpate could compliment that strategy, and you can still have it with Duress to end some matchups very quickly. This can also provide a nice answer to all those pesky Loam decks.

So. If I were to make changes, I'd do something like this:

-1 Island
-1 Plains
-2 Smother
-3 Counterspell
+4 Wasteland
+3 Stifle

The board is nice. I don't know if I'd add Extirpate or not, however I can see the appeal. All in all, I think it's a pretty awesome list. I was a big UWb Fish fan, so this is very much my style of deck.

[Slag]

Here (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/6487.html) is an article on the original dump truck deck by the most successful pilot. As you can see, the original build is completely spot removal based control, in large opposition to legacy builds. Bear in mind this was written for a very different format.

[Mister Agent]

Nice deck it would probably be something I would love to play at any legacy tournament. Of course I love playing with any kind of control deck with blue in it. Ive played blue based control ever since i started playing the format back in 2004.

I bet with the right sideboard it could take on any deck in the format just about imo.

[Patoon]

1. How much lands would you play? Is 19 enough, or would you play more?

I would suggest more (21), especially with the inclusion of wasteland. I think the format is just screaming for a deck playing 4 stifle 4 wasteland x vindicate

2. Dark Confidant or Shadowmage infiltrator? and why?

This is tough question where only more testing will tell, further more if meddling mages were moved to the sideboard, we could possibly run bob in the main as well as shadowmage..? maybe, as i said testing will tell.

3. What is the third counter after Force of Will and Counterspell? Spellsnare. Daze or Stifle? How much would you play of each?

I have kind of already answered this, stifle.

4. What creature removal should be played next to Swords to Plowshare? Smother, or is Ghastly Demise or even Vendetta better?

I dont think any more is required other than the 4 swords 3 vindicate and 2 engineered explosives. I think EE is a highly underated card at the moment, if anything i would add more of them.

5. What cards should you put in the SB, more combo hate or more specific answers like extirpate?

I think goblins might be an issue for this deck, goblins tend to have the ability to just go nuts. I think probably some kind of engineer plague would be the go. Also however many EE you are not playing the main should go here. (Sorry if that was a convoluted sentance). Again this is a situation where more testing will reveal answers.

So...

Further and in agreeance with C-Aleric the updated list


3 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp

2 Exalted Angel
4 Meddling Mage
3 Shadowmage Infiltrator
3 Jotun Grunt

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
3 Vindicate
3 Daze
3 Duress
2 Engineered Explosives

[Mister Agent]

I really like the sideboarding techs of each deck matchup that you provided I am just curious though how much playtesting did you do against all of those matchups. Sorry I am not doubting your test results I am just curious that is all. :)

[emidln]

My team was working on a list very similar to this a month or so before the GP. We noticed that Mox Diamond was amazing, you never don't want E. Angel, and Wasteland/Hymn/Extirpate(out of the board) is huge against control. Incidentally, we cut Force/Daze. Our list went something like this:

//bzk cajun fish

4 Mox Diamond
4 Dark Confidant
4 Meddling Mage
4 Exalted Angel
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vindicate
4 Stifle
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Brainstorm
4 Wasteland
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
3 Scrubland
2 Tundra

With a board that flucuated, but normally looked like this:

4 Jotun Grunt
4 E. Plague
4 Extirpate
3 Umezawa's Jitte

Needle, EE, Leyline, Crucible, and Azorius guildmage have been sideboard options depending on the exact meta.

Before we stopped testing, we had a very good matchup against Threshold and Combo, with slightly less than favorable Goblins matchups and a Survival matchup that seemed about even. Deadguy was favorable. Don't know if you care to use anything from it, but the strong LD/hand disruption backed up by Mage was absolutely golden, and you had the ability to switch gears into more of an aggro deck or more of a control deck postboard depending on the matchup.

[nitewolf9]

My team was working on a list very similar to this a month or so before the GP. We noticed that Mox Diamond was amazing, you never don't want E. Angel, and Wasteland/Hymn/Extirpate(out of the board) is huge against control. Incidentally, we cut Force/Daze. Our list went something like this:

//bzk cajun fish

4 Mox Diamond
4 Dark Confidant
4 Meddling Mage
4 Exalted Angel
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vindicate
4 Stifle
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Brainstorm
4 Wasteland
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
3 Scrubland
2 Tundra

With a board that flucuated, but normally looked like this:

4 Jotun Grunt
4 E. Plague
4 Extirpate
3 Umezawa's Jitte

Needle, EE, Leyline, Crucible, and Azorius guildmage have been sideboard options depending on the exact meta.

Before we stopped testing, we had a very good matchup against Threshold and Combo, with slightly less than favorable Goblins matchups and a Survival matchup that seemed about even. Deadguy was favorable. Don't know if you care to use anything from it, but the strong LD/hand disruption backed up by Mage was absolutely golden, and you had the ability to switch gears into more of an aggro deck or more of a control deck postboard depending on the matchup.

Isn't 21 lands a little low to be running Mox Diamond? Did you guys run into issues with that?

[Whit3 Ghost]

Isn't 21 lands a little low to be running Mox Diamond? Did you guys run into issues with that?
Not really. Although all my testing was done via MWS, so I'm not sure how flawed my results were.

[nitewolf9]

Not really. Although all my testing was done via MWS, so I'm not sure how flawed my results were.

I think it would make more sense to cut the diamonds, add the 4th vindicate and 3 chrome moxes. But if diamond has been working then it has been working.

[emidln]

I think it would make more sense to cut the diamonds, add the 4th vindicate and 3 chrome moxes. But if diamond has been working then it has been working.

21 Lands with Brainstorm is fine, because you actually want to use Mox Diamond as manafixing. Chrome Mox is bad because all of your spells cost different colors of mana, so you're not only throwing away a business spell, you're not really getting anything out of it. The only spells that cost more than 2 mana in the deck are Exalted Angel (mid to late game after you've had a few turns or resolved a brainstorm) and Vindicate (which isn't necessary until after you've exhausted your 1 and 2 drops).

[Benie Bederios]

I really like the sideboarding techs of each deck matchup that you provided I am just curious though how much playtesting did you do against all of those matchups. Sorry I am not doubting your test results I am just curious that is all. :)

I did play games against all those matchups, but it was to few to really give match percentages and real inside of the matches. That's why I kept the sideboard quite standard( I think you'll find 4 E Plagues 4 Blasts and 3 Needles in a lot sideboards.)

The problem is that I don't in a team or something and am the only person in the shop where I normally play who playes Legacy. So the testing is done with MWS against all those noobs, who think they can play Combo Ichorid or against friends who play Vintage or Extended( try to learn a Extended player the basics of TES, it's fun:wink:). If you want to help me with testing I would appriciate it.

@ C-Aleric and Patoon

I tested the changes and at first I really like it. I don't play 4 Stifles though, but kept in a single Smother. It is very good against Thresh, who started to play Wasteland too. Because your manabase is stronger, you can really screw them over.

I'm not changing the opening post yet, becaus I want to try it first against fast aggro decks. If it holds up I will make the changes too the opening post.


My team was working on a list very similar to this a month or so before the GP. We noticed that Mox Diamond was amazing, you never don't want E. Angel, and Wasteland/Hymn/Extirpate(out of the board) is huge against control. Incidentally, we cut Force/Daze. Our list went something like this:

//bzk cajun fish

4 Mox Diamond
4 Dark Confidant
4 Meddling Mage
4 Exalted Angel
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vindicate
4 Stifle
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Brainstorm
4 Wasteland
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
3 Scrubland
2 Tundra

With a board that flucuated, but normally looked like this:

4 Jotun Grunt
4 E. Plague
4 Extirpate
3 Umezawa's Jitte

Needle, EE, Leyline, Crucible, and Azorius guildmage have been sideboard options depending on the exact meta.

Before we stopped testing, we had a very good matchup against Threshold and Combo, with slightly less than favorable Goblins matchups and a Survival matchup that seemed about even. Deadguy was favorable. Don't know if you care to use anything from it, but the strong LD/hand disruption backed up by Mage was absolutely golden, and you had the ability to switch gears into more of an aggro deck or more of a control deck postboard depending on the matchup.

The deck looks solid and has a lot of good idea's allthough the deck is quite different. I especially like the Hymns, but it makes it very though to be able to have blue on turn one for Brainstorm, double black turn two for hymn and later on double white for Exalted Angel. I also like to see Grunt in the MD. He is very powerfull against combo where you can start the pounding turn 4 and it deals normally 12 damage before dying.

The only thing I miss is Engineered Explosives against Thresh, but maybe you stopped testing before Tarmogoyf:cool:

[emidln]

The only thing I miss is Engineered Explosives against Thresh, but maybe you stopped testing before Tarmogoyf:cool:

You actually have a ton of answers to Goyf already:

4 STP
3 Vindicate
4 Exalted Angel (Goyf cannot race Angel, Angel sometimes kills Goyf)
and situationally:

4 Hymn
4 Mage

Postboard you'd get Grunt and Extirpate as well.

Anyway, we moved on to more fun combo decks sometime around June. I hope you can pick something from it, didn't mean to hijack your thread.

[Mister Agent]

@benie: sure ill help you test afterall i think your deck is pretty good and i think it has alot of potential to do pretty well in this format as well as decks that are similiar to it. Ive always liked any type of blue control deck anyway considering decks like 4c landstill and uw landstill get boring to play at times.

Yeah 4 Engineered plagues, 4 blue elemental blasts, and 3 pithing needles is pretty common that seems to be the fundamental skeleton of blue control decks well the ones ive seen so far anyhow.

[hi-val]

Based on the idea that you have Exalted Angels in the deck and that sometimes Smother isn't going to cut mustard, have you thought about something like Snuff Out instead? Being able to blow away a turn-1 Lackey is really neat, and it handles other stuff like Fledgling Dragons that pop up. I may be wrong here; I'm a sucker for free spells.

[kirdape3]

Is there a particular reason why this deck doesn't run Tarmogoyf itself? It's not like the mana's going to be that hard to shoehorn in, and you get the biggest kid around.

[Mister Agent]

Is there a particular reason why this deck doesn't run Tarmogoyf itself? It's not like the mana's going to be that hard to shoehorn in, and you get the biggest kid around.

Mainly because the deck does not have green? I'd say it's not worth running a 4th color in this deck just for goyf in my opinion especially in a format where everyone is running stifles and also wastelands a fair amount of the time.

[kirdape3]

I'd say that it is. You need green exactly once, to cast the biggest creature in the format. If they Wasteland your land afterwards, you still have your guy on the board.

[Zilla]

Mainly because the deck does not have green? I'd say it's not worth running a 4th color in this deck just for goyf in my opinion especially in a format where everyone is running stifles and also wastelands a fair amount of the time.
I think it was you I was talking about this with over AIM the other evening, Funk... but I have to agree with Kird. If you're playing an aggro-control deck in this format, you have to have a really really compelling reason not to run Tarmogoyf in it. The card's power level is so inherently strong that it justifies adding a color to a deck like this, or to dropping a color for green. It seems absurd, but I think it's true.

[Citrus-God]

I think it was you I was talking about this with over AIM the other evening, Funk... but I have to agree with Kird. If you're playing an aggro-control deck in this format, you have to have a really really compelling reason not to run Tarmogoyf in it. The card's power level is so inherently strong that it justifies adding a color to a deck like this, or to dropping a color for green. It seems absurd, but I think it's true.

Or you can stick to 2/2 beat sticks and run some Meekstones.

[Mister Agent]

I think it was you I was talking about this with over AIM the other evening, Funk... but I have to agree with Kird. If you're playing an aggro-control deck in this format, you have to have a really really compelling reason not to run Tarmogoyf in it. The card's power level is so inherently strong that it justifies adding a color to a deck like this, or to dropping a color for green. It seems absurd, but I think it's true.

Heh well i think as Benie stated in his post dumptruck is more of a control deck then an aggro-control. I personally think tarmogoyf is not needed in this deck especially if he was to bring in jotun grunts from the board IMO. I personally think testing would truely tell if goyfs are worth it in this deck or not.

[Nihil Credo]

This is Baseruption with the following changes:

Pro: Doesn't scoop to Magus of the Moon or Crucible/Wasteland

Con: No 'Goyf, no Confidant, no CounterTop, no Vedalken Shackles, no SB Krosan Grips

[Benie Bederios]

I changed the opening post, with the most recent decklist.


Is there a particular reason why this deck doesn't run Tarmogoyf itself? It's not like the mana's going to be that hard to shoehorn in, and you get the biggest kid around.

The reason I didn't include Tarmogoyf is

1. I didn't want to splash a third color after black and white for only one card, allthough it's a very good one. The first list played only had 19 lands, and I couldn't really build a good Manabase for it.

2. no matter what people says Tarmogoyf + Jotun Grunt is not good.

3. This deck doesn't really need it. This deck is alot more in the direction of control than aggro. You don't need a Vanilla 4/5 beater. Jotun Grunt is selected, because it's ability is insane. With everybody running Tarmogoyf in any deck, Jotun Grunt can really punish them for it.

Now that the list runs 21 lands, I can try it again instead of Jotun Grunt, but that guy won me so many games.



This is Baseruption with the following changes:

Pro: Doesn't scoop to Magus of the Moon or Crucible/Wasteland

Con: No 'Goyf, no Confidant, no CounterTop, no Vedalken Shackles, no SB Krosan Grips

This isn't really a posts that helps much you know.

I already explained why Tarmogoyf and Confidant didn't make the cut. Countertop is tested, but it it wasn't what the deck needed. It is nice against combo, but the deck already has a decent combo matchup, so I decided to play aditional removal. No SB Krosan Grips is also a nice argument. Your deck doesn't play SB REB. I have Vindicate MD and didn't need any other artifact/enchantment removal.

Next time just say:"Have you looked at the deck Baseruption? It has more or less the same gameplan, but has some other card choices, wich makes some matchups easier. Maybe you could look in to it."

BB

[Mister Agent]

Anyhow here is my very own version of dumptruck its similar to your list Benie except with more graveyard hate against loam aggro, ichrorid, and cephalid breakfast. Ive had positive matchups so far against those three decks played by a couple of competent players. As well as this build still having a postive matchup versus threshold but I think the somewhat okay to bad matchups are against landstill and possibly 43 land. Although landstill seems more favorable then 43 land by a long shot in my opinion. I am not saying my list is the best though but I definetly like the feel for your build and as well as mine. Here is the list:

Lands
4 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Island
2 Plains
2 Swamp

Creatures
2 Jotun Grunt
3 Shadowmage infiltrator
3 Exalted Angel

Spells
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Extirpate
2 Spell Snare
3 Serum Visions
4 Brainstorm
2 Vindicate
2 Counterspell
4 Swords to plowshares
4 Force of will
3 Daze

Sideboard
2 Pithing Needle
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Engineered Plague
2 Extirpate
4 Meddling Mage
1 Engineered Explosives

[Jaynel]

Whoa, lots of two-ofs with only 7(!) cantrips. How's that working out for you? It seems kind of all over the place.

[emidln]

Whoa, lots of two-ofs with only 7(!) cantrips. How's that working out for you? It seems kind of all over the place.

It actually seems like a lot of his 2ofs and 3ofs are redundant producing a 4of or 5of. Still kinda random, but I can see it working.

[Mister Agent]

Whoa, lots of two-ofs with only 7(!) cantrips. How's that working out for you? It seems kind of all over the place.

Its working out well so far but my list is still in the process of the preliminary stages of testing so to speak.

@emildn: Thanks ;)

[Benie Bederios]

Anyhow here is my very own version of dumptruck its similar to your list Benie except with more graveyard hate against loam aggro, ichrorid, and cephalid breakfast. Ive had positive matchups so far against those three decks played by a couple of competent players. As well as this build still having a postive matchup versus threshold but I think the somewhat okay to bad matchups are against landstill and possibly 43 land. Although landstill seems more favorable then 43 land by a long shot in my opinion. I am not saying my list is the best though but I definetly like the feel for your build and as well as mine. Here is the list:

Lands
4 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Island
2 Plains
2 Swamp

Creatures
2 Jotun Grunt
3 Shadowmage infiltrator
3 Exalted Angel

Spells
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Extirpate
2 Spell Snare
3 Serum Visions
4 Brainstorm
2 Vindicate
2 Counterspell
4 Swords to plowshares
4 Force of will
3 Daze

Sideboard
2 Pithing Needle
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Engineered Plague
2 Extirpate
4 Meddling Mage
1 Engineered Explosives

The biggest difference between my list and your list is, that I only included the most basic answers so that I hadn't have many dead cards preboard in alot matchups. That's why I didn't included cards like Extirpate Spell Snare. Both are good cards, but too narrow. Against TES, Thresh and Goblins I have a max of 5 dead cards preboard. Spelsnare and Extirpate aren't that good against Goblins or random.dec.

In what meta do you test your decks? After boarding you can have 9 graveyardhate cards( how do you call those). That's an insane amount. It also looks like you have a thougher game against aggro, due to lesser removal and creatures.

After testing your deck a few times, I didn't like the combination of Jotun Grunt and Extirpate MD. It made me do bad plays, like letting a Grunt die and hope to draw a Extirpate soon. Or didn't play a spell on the draw, so that I can counter a spell with Spell Snare.

Anyway these are mine experiences with your list. In the right meta, your deck can the right call. I am thinking of moving Meddling Mage to the board for 4 Extirpates MD. They simply do the same, but Meddling Mage does it advance and Extirpate after the first card is played, but can't be countered/killed. But Extirpate isn't that good with Grunt...

BB

[Mister Agent]

The biggest difference between my list and your list is, that I only included the most basic answers so that I hadn't have many dead cards preboard in alot matchups. That's why I didn't included cards like Extirpate Spell Snare. Both are good cards, but too narrow. Against TES, Thresh and Goblins I have a max of 5 dead cards preboard. Spelsnare and Extirpate aren't that good against Goblins or random.dec.

In what meta do you test your decks? After boarding you can have 9 graveyardhate cards( how do you call those). That's an insane amount. It also looks like you have a thougher game against aggro, due to lesser removal and creatures.

After testing your deck a few times, I didn't like the combination of Jotun Grunt and Extirpate MD. It made me do bad plays, like letting a Grunt die and hope to draw a Extirpate soon. Or didn't play a spell on the draw, so that I can counter a spell with Spell Snare.

Anyway these are mine experiences with your list. In the right meta, your deck can the right call. I am thinking of moving Meddling Mage to the board for 4 Extirpates MD. They simply do the same, but Meddling Mage does it advance and Extirpate after the first card is played, but can't be countered/killed. But Extirpate isn't that good with Grunt...

BB


I just said what meta i test my list in by saying against thresh, ichrorid, and cephalid breakfast I haven't really tested against other decks because of the lack of time I have thats why you see questionable slots. Well I didn't have a problem with extirpate and jotun grunts in the same deck like if i know that jotun grunts are not necassary at the time being I won't cast them. Well its not my problem that you made some bad plays if you don't think grunt is necassary don't cast it and if you see a priority spell to play first then cast that first. I just find grunt to be decent during the mid to late game if your worried about going to time since it adds another clock. Maybe we should test goyf anyway in that respect of adding another clock thats powerful and only cost 2 to play.

I also didn't say that extirpate and grunt worked good together all I was providing was a list that I was playtesting with and as I said before my list is not perfect.

[Benie Bederios]

I just said what meta i test my list in by saying against thresh, ichrorid, and cephalid breakfast I haven't really tested against other decks because of the lack of time I have thats why you see questionable slots. Well I didn't have a problem with extirpate and jotun grunts in the same deck like if i know that jotun grunts are not necassary at the time being I won't cast them. Well its not my problem that you made some bad plays if you don't think grunt is necassary don't cast it and if you see a priority spell to play first then cast that first. I just find grunt to be decent during the mid to late game if your worried about going to time since it adds another clock. Maybe we should test goyf anyway in that respect of adding another clock thats powerful and only cost 2 to play.

I also didn't say that extirpate and grunt worked good together all I was providing was a list that I was playtesting with and as I said before my list is not perfect.

I didn't say your list were bad. I think it's important to play your own list. The biggest thing I hate, is people who just take a netdeck and think they can play them. I didn't say your deck is bad.

About the Grunt + Extirpate story, that's just me. I'm not that good with playing control or aggrocontrol.

I have some more cards I want to consider for the SB and possibly MD, and want the opinion of you guys.

Against the Sui-blacklike decks I was thinking of Divert or Misdirection to fight of there Hyms, Sinkholes and Vindicates/Burnspells. Could they be played in the SB or are they to narrow. What other spells can be played to stop those decks.

Next to that I have some trouble beating Stax. It's winnable, but it could use some help. Of course there is Energy flux, but that card is very narrow and only usable against Stax and Affinity. Are there other cards to bring in. I was thinking about Rebuild, but that is only tempo.

Anyway thanks for the tips and keep them comming.

BB

[BreathWeapon]

Next to that I have some trouble beating Stax. It's winnable, but it could use some help. Of course there is Energy flux, but that card is very narrow and only usable against Stax and Affinity. Are there other cards to bring in. I was thinking about Rebuild, but that is only tempo.

BB

Serenity

[Benie Bederios]

I don't know if you want to know, but I tested different things in the deck.

First of Tarmogoyf. I wasn't satisfied about it, it made my manabase weaker to support 4 colors. And Jotun Grunt wins against opposing Goyfs, where another goyf just stalls. Also the ability of Grunt is better than the possible little bigger Goyf.

Next to that I tried Shackles. It was a nice card, but it's a little overkill against creatures. I removed the Smother and a Vindicate for it, but I wasn't satisfied. I don't need to steal creatures from my opponent.

The last thing I tested was Extirpate instead of Crypt. That was a change I liked. The split second ability makes it nice against Loam decks. This card with Grunt is for me enough to stop graveyard utilizing decks.

@ BreathWeapon. Whoah I didn't know this card was there. Definitly going to find a way in my Sideboard.

I changed the openingpost with my current list again. I do have some question to you.

1. Do you like the manabase? I does I quite good job, but I was wondering how much basics I should use. And maybe less fetches and non-blue Duals.

2. Is Engineered Plague still needed in the board? Goblins isn't favourable, but not really bad. I could get a way with dropping 1 or 2, or maybe even all of them and use another strategy to beat them.

BB

[Mister Agent]

I don't know if you want to know, but I tested different things in the deck.

First of Tarmogoyf. I wasn't satisfied about it, it made my manabase weaker to support 4 colors. And Jotun Grunt wins against opposing Goyfs, where another goyf just stalls. Also the ability of Grunt is better than the possible little bigger Goyf.

Next to that I tried Shackles. It was a nice card, but it's a little overkill against creatures. I removed the Smother and a Vindicate for it, but I wasn't satisfied. I don't need to steal creatures from my opponent.

The last thing I tested was Extirpate instead of Crypt. That was a change I liked. The split second ability makes it nice against Loam decks. This card with Grunt is for me enough to stop graveyard utilizing decks.

@ BreathWeapon. Whoah I didn't know this card was there. Definitly going to find a way in my Sideboard.

I changed the openingpost with my current list again. I do have some question to you.

1. Do you like the manabase? I does I quite good job, but I was wondering how much basics I should use. And maybe less fetches and non-blue Duals.

2. Is Engineered Plague still needed in the board? Goblins isn't favourable, but not really bad. I could get a way with dropping 1 or 2, or maybe even all of them and use another strategy to beat them.

BB

Yeah goyf definetly seems good on paper in this deck and obviously was good for some people that played baseruption but i tried it out as well and I didn't like it either because it is hard to maintain a 4 color manabase for this deck since this deck is neither threshold or landstill(not saying those are the only 4 color decks that do good though). Also for the fact that your running wastelands now which makes it more of an issue to run a 4th color just for goyf in this deck. Besides I think if you have an answer for goyf which you have plenty probably would seem a more viable way to go in my opinion then just adding goyf to this deck. Those answers to goyfs are usually good against thresh in general as well like the jotun grunts and engineered explosives.

Yeah I agree I don't think you need to steal creatures with shackles besides you have exalted angel and shadowmage infiltrators and two of them together can be deadly during the mid to late game.