Legacy Champs Top 32 Decklists... [Archive]

Bovinious

08-31-2007, 02:03 AM

yet...

I cant really tell if you were being sarcastic or not, but just because a card is widely played doesnt mean it should be considered for banning, being widely played doesnt imply distortion or brokeness. I'd be hardpressed to find anyone who would call Brainstorm "dominating", "brutal", "vicious", or any such word.

That being said...I'm for banning Tarmogoyf, it pisses me off how everyone is creaming their pants over it, and that theyre so damn hard to get (as a result of showing up everywhere...).

Tacosnape

08-31-2007, 02:08 AM

I find it amusing how half the people bemoaned how bad green was outside of one deck (Thresh) because every other color had the best undercosted threats, and now that Tarmogoyf's around, everyone's like all "zomg wtfz0rz splash green in everytihng!" or "wtf ban taht shiznit."

TheInfamousBearAssassin

08-31-2007, 02:20 AM

But the people that said that about Green were either

a) Talking about other formats,

b) Wrong.

I already crunched the numbers for you a while ago. Pre-FS, Green was the 3rd most played color. It had roughly the exact representation it should have had, behind red and blue and ahead of white and black.

There were people that complained that you could not do anything on your first turn in Legacy and still win, but that doesn't mean that anyone who said Hulk-Flash was broken was a hypocrite. Maybe rational people shouldn't be held accountable for the irrational?

Tacosnape

08-31-2007, 02:27 AM

I already crunched the numbers for you a while ago. Pre-FS, Green was the 3rd most played color. It had roughly the exact representation it should have had, behind red and blue and ahead of white and black.

But except for Threshold (And the rare smattering of Madness, sure), people weren't playing Green because of the undercosted threats. They were playing green because of cards like Survival of the Fittest, Life from the Loam, and Eternal Witness. You could even argue Goblins played green, but they only did it for Tin-Street and some Plague removal.

So I think it's a plausible argument to state that before Tarmogoyf, Green was not necessarily -the- color to play for the best creatures. And that's what I meant people were complaining about, because all things in the nature of Green suggest they should have the best undercosted fat guys.

Now it certainly has -the- best one, and people aren't happy.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

08-31-2007, 02:33 AM

Tacosnape

08-31-2007, 02:46 AM

People played Werebear, Watchwolf, Nimble Mongoose, Kird Ape, Mystic Enforcer, and a smattering of others. It's creatures were decent enough. The solution to green's problems wasn't to print more undercosted beaters, which it already had plenty of, but to give it something to supplement them. Green was the worst color not because of it's creatures, but because outside of creatures the only thing it was supposed to be good at was mana accel. But mana accel is just tempo, and every other color had better tempo advantage than green.

I actually agree with you. Green's creatures were fine. But they weren't worlds stronger than the other colors' creatures, and the point I'm trying to make is that's what people wanted. Now they have their wish.

Green was actually fairly versatile already. Eternal Witness, Krosan Grip, Survival, and Loam made for four solid Green staples, Mongoose and Werebear made for efficient beaters, Mongrel was versatile as a beater and a discard mechanic, Argothian Enchantress and Enchantress's Presence spawned a whole archetype, and versatile cards like Exploration and Regrowth have seen some play as well.

Anyway, if you think Green saw little versatility, try checking out the number of blue cards that see print that aren't either Force, Daze, C. Spell, or a 1cc cantrip.

I completely agree. Blue is the least versatile color in Legacy right now. All blue does is counter spells/abilities, draw cards/manipulate your hand, and occasionally bounce stuff. Blue's creatures are trash. Narcomoeba can hardly even be considered blue as its usually brought in from the library, which leaves the battle for the top blue creature in magic between a deck-specific threat in Sea Drake and a combo piece in Cephalid Illusionist.

In fact, to play Blue in Legacy, you really need to own a set of Forces, a set of Brainstorms, and close to a set of Polluted Deltas and Flooded Strands.

Yet Blue is very good at what it does, so people play it and it wins.

Ridiculous Hat

08-31-2007, 02:46 AM

Anyway, if you think Green saw little versatility, try checking out the number of blue cards that see print that aren't either Force, Daze, C. Spell, or a 1cc cantrip.Counterbalance, half of Peter Olzewski's deck, Fire//Ice, Threads of Disloyalty, Cephalid Illusionist, Standstill, Fact or Fiction, Breakthrough, Deep Analysis... well, you're pretty much right. Blue cards are:

Counterspells that cost 2 or less
Cantrips that cost 2 or less
Combo enablers that cost 2 or less
Abusable card drawers that cost 4 or less

Threads is kind of an oddball, but narrow sideboard cards usually are. Sea Drake doesn't even see play any more-- there are no blue threats left that people actually use (unless you count Faerie Conclave).

I still don't understand why people are so upset about Tarmogoyf. Win through it or kill it-- it's just a guy and it only costs two freaking mana. Smother it, Snare it, Threads it, Swords it, Gempalm it, whatever.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

08-31-2007, 03:02 AM

I still don't understand why people are so upset about Tarmogoyf. Win through it or kill it-- it's just a guy and it only costs two freaking mana.

Yeah, that's the problem. Silvos smashes face, too, but he takes more effort to get out there and the opponent tends to care a little bit more when they lose their Silvos.

Ridiculous Hat

08-31-2007, 03:33 AM

Yeah, that's the problem. Silvos smashes face, too, but he takes more effort to get out there and the opponent tends to care a little bit more when they lose their Silvos.I mean, I understand that he is an undercosted threat. Every competitive legacy deck is built around costing errors, and Tarmogoyf is not the worst one-- just the one we're seeing the most of right now. It has no evasion and no self-preservation abilities. It's just harder for red to kill than most other creatures, which is why people are complaining about it, I guess-- except the only good red decks are combo or goblins. And red death, I suppose, but black has no problem with this guy at all.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

08-31-2007, 03:47 AM

Ridiculous Hat

08-31-2007, 03:52 AM

It's actually harder to kill with StP, too. What with you needing the StP a lot fucking closer to the top of your deck in order to not die before you can draw it. I think you under-rate the power of the simple face-smashing. You don't need to worry about what your opponent is doing if they're dead. If it was a 2/*+1, I doubt you'd see as many people complaining.

What other card do you actually think is as under-costed in Legacy? I can think of perhaps StP and Brainstorm, but I think even those are arguable.Goblin Lackey.

Like, isn't every non-control deck in this format capable of killing by turn 4 or 5? Goblins does regularly, that's a slow hand for Belcher or TES, and now Threshold can too. Big deal. Play some answers or blockers or just win the game.

frogboy

08-31-2007, 04:07 AM

This is sort of confusing, because I played Tarmogoyf in Standard and people were like "whatever, nice card" and usually just killed it or me. Did that plan, like, stop working? I mean, sure, the card is good but if you can't beat a two drop, nice deck. What cards were people using to kill* Lackey that don't kill Tarmogoyf?

Also, decks that play STP don't have many other targets for them when they're playing against decks with Tarmogoyf. Meddling Mage, Fledgling Dragon, Mystic Enforcer, that's about it? Yeah there's the Zoo decks (which are probably woefully underdeveloped; 12 2/*s for one, Wolf, Goyf, some other 3/3 for two, and a fistful of burn spells is probably pretty damn good) but I can't think of much aside from them.

*Yeah, Bandage doesn't count.

URABAHN

08-31-2007, 07:04 AM

What deck are you playing and why?
Cephalid Breakfast because it is a two-card combo that wins the game for three mana and fits in a synergistic shell that can consistently assemble and protect it.

How eloquent! I'm all geeked up about seeing so much Eternal coverage. I may have to write a tournament report about how I made 12th. Y'know, so that there's more Eternal coverage.

Nihil Credo

08-31-2007, 07:46 AM

Personally most disliked deck: 28th place, a Goblins deck that splashes White for... StP? Disenchant? Leave no Trace? Nope, for Jotun Grunt and Tempest of Light.

Personally most liked deck: 18th place, a ballsy SI/Belcher hybrid that to a non-combo player like myself looks very sexy. Pity for the terrible sideboard.

Illissius

08-31-2007, 09:49 AM

What cards were people using to kill* Lackey that don't kill Tarmogoyf?

Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, Mogg Fanatic, Lava Dart, Death Spark, Chaos Charm, Singe, Crackling Club, Nimble Mongoose, Isamaru, Kird Ape, Sarcomancy... you get the drift.

Not that I'm complaining about Tarmogoyf being hard to kill, I was just wrestling the other day with the very scarcity of good cards beyond Swords to Plowshares which do a good job of dealing with both Goblin Lackey (i.e., before it hits you) and Tarmogoyf.

sammiel

08-31-2007, 10:18 AM

well maybe people have to accept that you have to consider cards that aren't 1cc to kill goyf. That means you have to either accept that lackey is occasionally going to hit you when you are on the draw, or it means you aren't going to have sufficient answers for mid to late game goyfs.

Basically, people are whining that they can't continue to have the same answer against multiple decks.

hmm.. 4 basic lands out of the top 12 decks

Why aren't Magus of the Moon/Blood Moon/Price of Progress/Back to Basics seeing play???

Its why hate decks suck in vintage, it's better to play the good cards than to hate them.

Citrus-God

08-31-2007, 11:23 AM

UW Fish could get away with playing Back to Basics and Meekstone. That may warrant some play.

Ridiculous Hat

08-31-2007, 11:34 AM

Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, Mogg Fanatic, Lava Dart, Death Spark, Chaos Charm, Singe, Crackling Club, Nimble Mongoose, Isamaru, Kird Ape, Sarcomancy... you get the drift.I seriously doubt people were actually using Death Spark, Chaos Charm, Singe, and Crackling Club.

People are just going to have to start playing black cards. Throw an Underground Sea in your thresh decks and board in Snuff Out or Smother.

Illissius

08-31-2007, 11:45 AM

I seriously doubt people were actually using Death Spark, Chaos Charm, Singe, and Crackling Club.

I seriously doubt you can tell the difference between jest and seriousness. I thought Singe was a pretty big tipoff, but maybe I should've included Scorching Spear in the list after all. It was an allusion to "every burn spell ever".

To be clear, I have no problem with the Tarmogoyf situation at hand (in fact, I like it a lot better than the previous metagame), I just thought frogboy's suggestion that anything which stops Lackey also stops Tarmogoyf was inaccurate. That's mainly true of only one card: Swords to Plowshares. (Snuff Out is another good option, but it's not nearly as popular).

Pale Moon FTW

08-31-2007, 12:25 PM

I'm surprised noone has commented on the really small presence of combo in the top32 (at least of the non-cephalid kind). This suggests either that Belcher and TES aren't all they're cracked up to be or that they're simply underplayed (I doubt that though). Also the amount of LandStill decks in the top ought to show people still arguing that control and answers in general suck.

Ridiculous Hat

08-31-2007, 01:07 PM

I seriously doubt you can tell the difference between jest and seriousness. I thought Singe was a pretty big tipoff, but maybe I should've included Scorching Spear in the list after all. It was an allusion to "every burn spell ever".

To be clear, I have no problem with the Tarmogoyf situation at hand (in fact, I like it a lot better than the previous metagame), I just thought frogboy's suggestion that anything which stops Lackey also stops Tarmogoyf was inaccurate. That's mainly true of only one card: Swords to Plowshares. (Snuff Out is another good option, but it's not nearly as popular).It's hard to know when to take people seriously or not online, especially when people like Jack Elgin inhabit this forum. Though I probably should've picked up on the fact that you were trolling-- but hey, I'm sure some innovative legacy player somewhere has Singed goblins out of existence. Bandage was taken seriously a while ago, so why the hell not?

Cabal-kun

08-31-2007, 02:23 PM

People are just going to have to start playing black cards. Throw an Underground Sea in your thresh decks and board in Snuff Out or Smother.

And with a little extrapolation and a time trip back to Flash.format, all people needed to do was splash blue and black, or just play Flash themselves.

Just saying that arguing that people should just pull them up by their bootstraps is not the strongest of points.

Ridiculous Hat

08-31-2007, 02:28 PM

And with a little extrapolation and a time trip back to Flash.format, all people needed to do was splash blue and black, or just play Flash themselves.

Just saying that arguing that people should just pull them up by their bootstraps is not the strongest of points.This is a little different from the flash format. People are winning on turns 5 or 6, not turns 1 or 2, and the card has plenty of answers to it that are already seeing play. If you really want to wreck Goyf, it's not that hard, but even if you don't care about it that much you can still beat it.

Like, I can't make any more arguments other than "it really isn't that big of a deal". It's not dominant, it doesn't stifle creativity, and it doesn't do anything the format isn't already prepared for. People can make minor changes to their decks if they want to be extra safe, like throwing in one Underground Sea and sideboarding in Snuff Outs, but that isn't even necessary.

Pale Moon FTW

08-31-2007, 02:30 PM

Comparing the current situation to the flash metagame is absurd. You don't have to splash black, you can just as well splash white for StP. People just need to realize that Stp is better than Lightning Bolt. Chances are you'll avoid losing by being able to remove the fat guy much more often than you'll lose by not being able to throw a bolt at the opponent.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

08-31-2007, 04:32 PM

There's also Innocent Blood and Condemn.

Like, I can't make any more arguments other than "it really isn't that big of a deal". It's not dominant, it doesn't stifle creativity, and it doesn't do anything the format isn't already prepared for. People can make minor changes to their decks if they want to be extra safe, like throwing in one Underground Sea and sideboarding in Snuff Outs, but that isn't even necessary.

1) Tarmogoyf doesn't really ask anything of you other than you play green. Even Flash required a deck to be built around it. Goyf is fairly easy to stop; I'm not even sure who you think you're talking to, because I'm fairly sure I have a better handle on the full scope of cards that kill Goyf than anyone. But it's rather problematic in that if you do deal with the Goyf, you still have to deal with whatever's in the rest of their deck. Of course, Lackey has this same problem. But unlike Lackey,

2) Tarmogoyf does stifle creativity. Any aggro, aggro-control, and quite a number of combo and control decks without 4x Goyf either main or board are simply built wrong. Tarmogoyf obsoletes over half the strategies in the format that don't involve Tarmogoyf. In this way, it is like Flash. Even though in gameplay it's not nearly as broken, it still creates a massive strategic sinkhole in the metagame. Even Goblins is talking about running Goyfs, which should really tell you something.

Amon Amarth

08-31-2007, 05:35 PM

There's also Innocent Blood and Condemn.

1) Tarmogoyf doesn't really ask anything of you other than you play green. Even Flash required a deck to be built around it. Goyf is fairly easy to stop; I'm not even sure who you think you're talking to, because I'm fairly sure I have a better handle on the full scope of cards that kill Goyf than anyone. But it's rather problematic in that if you do deal with the Goyf, you still have to deal with whatever's in the rest of their deck. Of course, Lackey has this same problem. But unlike Lackey,

2) Tarmogoyf does stifle creativity. Any aggro, aggro-control, and quite a number of combo and control decks without 4x Goyf either main or board are simply built wrong. Tarmogoyf obsoletes over half the strategies in the format that don't involve Tarmogoyf. In this way, it is like Flash. Even though in gameplay it's not nearly as broken, it still creates a massive strategic sinkhole in the metagame. Even Goblins is talking about running Goyfs, which should really tell you something.

I don't get what you are trying to say. If Tarmogoyf is easily dealt with then whats the big deal? If you can deal with Tarmogoyf then you should have a fairly good idea of what your opponent is playing and what to expect.

I'm really trying to understand what you mean by "stifling creativity". There are some decks that just don't want huge green creatures in them. Belcher, 43 Land, Landstill, Ichorid, Enchantress, Goblins, CounterSliver, Burn, Death and Taxes and company get along fine without him.

Seriously, Tarmogoyf in Goblins? Gimme a break.

Illissius

08-31-2007, 05:38 PM

What strategies does Tarmogoyf specifically obsolete?

I wonder how many of the people who used to favor banning Lackey because they believed it stifled creativity, are the same people who now oppose banning Tarmogoyf, despite others claiming the same factors. I certainly know I'm one of them. It comes down to me just hating Goblins and Storm (but not other combo in general) as decks, at least when they're dominant (at the current level they're quite tolerable), while liking control and aggro-control. The psychologics and latent biases of this are rather interesting. And as everyone has biases, discovering the objective truth becomes a tad difficult...

Long story short, taking any B&R action against Goblins or Storm at this point would be pretty silly. At the same time, if they do ban Tarmogoyf (which I'm not convinced is justified, howevermuch my biases factor into it), they had better ban Goblin Lackey and some Storm component along with it. Going back to Goblins+Storm.format would be tragic. The logical direction the metagame should take at this point would be towards control decks to beat up on Tarmogoyf decks (and afterwards perhaps Goblins to beat up on control); we'll see if this manifests itself. I'm also wondering how big of an earthquake Worlds will be for the format...

TheInfamousBearAssassin

08-31-2007, 05:52 PM

Belcher

Actually, I think he's a great sideboard option in Belcher. My man plan when I was tinkering with the deck was 4x each Goyf and Storm Entity.

43 Land

I guess he's worse than Terravore here.

Landstill

Control decks, mostly, wouldn't want him, yeah.

Ichorid

I wouldn't be surprised, however, if he finds a home in Ichorid. He certainly reduces vulnerability to graveyard hate.

Enchantress

Enchantress can't use him effectively. That's yet one more thing that pushes Enchantress away from viability.

Goblins

Maybe.

CounterSliver

Why would you play Counterslivers when you could play an aggro-control deck with Goyf? It would greatly reduce your vulnerability to Wrath effects.

Burn

Less effective than R/g Sligh with Goyfs and Kird Apes and Scab-Clans.

Death and Taxes and company get along fine without him.

Most of those decks were either unviable before or are certainly unviable in a new metagame with a higher power level and a new standard of efficiency. Very few decks can rise up to meet this new level of power except through running Goyf themselves, and strategies that cannot utilize him effectively are doomed for obsoletion. This is the fate of decks like Sui, Red Death, Fish, Counterslivers, etc...

The one aggro deck that might survive without Goyf is Goblins. Goblin Goon and Mog War Marshal are both very good in the current metagame but almost unplayed.

But Goyf, as I've said, exists on an entirely separate power level from any other creature. It's arguable if Phyrexian Negator would actually be better even without the massive drawback. While it can be killed, it drastically raises the stakes if you're unable to find a kill spell, and puts you on a much shorter clock towards finding it.

TeenieBopper

08-31-2007, 05:59 PM

Shit, I'd play 'goyf in Goblins. He's a goddamn 5/6 for two freaking mana. Why the hell wouldn't goblins play him?

Amon Amarth

08-31-2007, 06:44 PM

Shit, I'd play 'goyf in Goblins. He's a goddamn 5/6 for two freaking mana. Why the hell wouldn't goblins play him?

Because he's not a Goblin. Goblins doesnt fill up it's graveyard very quickly either and relying on your opponent to do it for you makes the card too inconsistent for me. Hell, if Goyf presented a big enough road block for me I'd rather just splash White for Plow and be done with it.

@IBA: I'd rather go with the Blast plan to resolve spells that would win me the game quickly, Belcher or ETW, instead of trying to kill your opponent in 4 turns. In fact, that strategy sucks balls if your opponents run Goyfs; they will only bounce off each other.

Goyf in Ichorid sucks. You have to have him in your opening hand with two lands for him to be good at all because after that you aren't drawing cards. I'd rather just play Grudge and Ray to deal with problematic cards.

Enchantress doesn't play creatures that aren't Argothian Enchantress. It doesn't need any more than that. Enchantress also doesnt play Goblin Lackey, but does that make it bad?

Ok, you got me on the CS thing. That was more of a brainfart on my part. Honestly, the only Aggro-Control deck I would play would be some sorta Thresh-y Gro-y thing. Those decks truly make Tarmogoyf shine.

I see Burn as more of a weird ass Combo deck than some sorta Aggro deck. I don't think Goyf would be too good here.

Death and Taxes has actually seen some success lately, I believe it Top 8ed two tournaments. The deck has a lot of synergy and a hard lock with Mangara recursion.

I don't believe Red Death is unviable now. They have a decent game against Thresh and get a savage bomb in Dystopia out of the board. They could even load up on removal like Smother.

I don't think anyone is saying Tarmogoyf isn't incredibly strong, it is. Probably the best creature ever printed. However, sometimes a massive vanilla beater isn't conducive to some decks strategies.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

08-31-2007, 07:08 PM

Amon Amarth

08-31-2007, 07:40 PM

Have you ever heard the expression, "Don't bring a knife to a gunfight"?

Decks without Tarmogoyf are generally going to suck because Tarmogoyf means that those decks are playing on an entirely different power level. Really the only exceptions are decks that don't want Goyf, which generally means pure combo and pure control. Of those, pure combo tends to eat it to decks with Goyf.

In other words, most of those decks are weak in the Goyf metagame for the same reason that Fluctuator was weak in the previous metagame. It's not that Fluctuator could make good use of cards like Aether Vial or Brainstorm or Pernicious Deed or most of the other powerful cards in Legacy. It's the fact that it couldn't make use of those cards that were so much more powerful than what it was doing that made it suck. Why play a deck with what is, objectively, just a lower power level? The dodo couldn't make effective use of guns, but that's not an argument for the evolutionary viability of the dodo.

I get what your trying to say but I think you are generalizing way too much. I think a decks like Enchantress is viable because it can beat Goyf decks, Goblins, and have a decent chance against Combo and Control. Yet it doesn't run Tarmogoyf. Would you not play it just because it doesn't run Goyf?

There are a lot of unique archetypes that don't want Goyf. I think we don't agree as to whether said archetypes are viable in a post FS metagame.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

08-31-2007, 08:02 PM

Zach Tartell

08-31-2007, 08:52 PM

TheInfamousBearAssassin

08-31-2007, 08:54 PM

Moat does beat Tarmogoyf. Of course, so does Krosan Colossus. It matters very little if you don't get to play, much less resolve, the damned card.

Bane of the Living

08-31-2007, 10:06 PM

Most of those decks were either unviable before or are certainly unviable in a new metagame with a higher power level and a new standard of efficiency. Very few decks can rise up to meet this new level of power except through running Goyf themselves, and strategies that cannot utilize him effectively are doomed for obsoletion. This is the fate of decks like Sui, Red Death, Fish, Counterslivers, etc...

I think its a riot that so many of you dismiss Death and Taxes without playing against a seasoned pilot. Id go out on a limb and call this deck tier one atm. It beats the piss out of goblins and thresh, goes toe to toe with Cephalid Breakfast and Survival, and eats mid range aggro for lunch. Its only bad matchups as far as I can see after months of testing are Landstill and Belcher.

We have no problem if you go into a D&T matchup arrogant and unprepared.

bigbear102

08-31-2007, 11:24 PM

How does D&T go toe to toe against Survival? Survival has too many different angles that a deck like D&T would have to attack. Survival can destroy the Vials and the creatures, and even attack the hand with Therapies to stop the dumb Stonecloaker tricks. I have seen the deck in action at Kadilak's last tourney, and I highly doubt that Survival has anything less than a 75% positive matchup against the deck.

Ridiculous Hat

09-01-2007, 12:47 AM

Moat does beat Tarmogoyf. Of course, so does Krosan Colossus. It matters very little if you don't get to play, much less resolve, the damned card.How fast are your tarmogoyfs killing? I don't know about you, but mine are usually one point of toughness bigger than Werebears by turn 4.

Seriously, how is this card "a different power level"? It's a big dude for not a lot of mana. It comes down on turn 2. OH NO.

TeenieBopper

09-01-2007, 01:33 AM

Because he's not a Goblin. Goblins doesnt fill up it's graveyard very quickly either and relying on your opponent to do it for you makes the card too inconsistent for me. Hell, if Goyf presented a big enough road block for me I'd rather just splash White for Plow and be done with it.

Neither is Aether Vial. Doesn't stop that card from being fucking stupid.

Goblins doesn't have to fill the graveyard. Every other deck does it for you

I guess I really don't post all that much anymore. People no longer know to just ignore whatever I post.

Ridiculous Hat

09-01-2007, 01:56 AM

Neither is Aether Vial. Doesn't stop that card from being fucking stupid.

Goblins doesn't have to fill the graveyard. Every other deck does it for you

I guess I really don't post all that much anymore. People no longer know to just ignore whatever I post.I don't ignore you if you're making fun of someone else...

Though for what it's worth, Aether Vial makes your goblins work better. Tarmogoyf doesn't.

09-01-2007, 02:03 AM

Though for what it's worth, Aether Vial makes your goblins work better. Tarmogoyf doesn't.

That still isn't a good argument not to run the damn card.

Ridiculous Hat

09-01-2007, 02:05 AM

That still isn't a good argument not to run the damn card.I don't think the card is really broken enough that Goblins will want to run it. Go ahead and put it in the deck if you think it's really that great (especially considering you're relying on your opponents to do the work for you in making it larger than an erg raiders) but I don't think it belongs.

kirdape3

09-01-2007, 04:09 AM

In order to be considered for inclusion in my personal maindeck of Goblins, it has to be better than one of the following sets of cards in the context of the deck:

Goblin Lackey
Mogg Fanatic
Goblin Piledriver
Goblin Matron
Goblin Warchief
Gempalm Incinerator
Goblin Ringleader
Siege-Gang Commander

Lackey is a stupid silly mana cheat and was banned in Extended. It's track record in Legacy is also very good. Mogg Fanatic is extremely versatile at blowing away annoying small creatures that people might be playing (Dark Confidant and Birds of Paradise chiefly among them), and he holds back any x/2s pretty well. Piledriver is the most scalable creature in the deck - for every time I send him in on turn 3 as a 1/2 I have examples of sending him in on turn 6 as a 15/2. Goblin Matron is Demonic Tutor for 3; Demonic Tutor at that price is better than even a 5/6 for G1. Goblin Warchief on average produces about as much mana as Vial or Lackey will over the course of a tournament; giving all of your creatures haste functionally cuts their cost by an additional mana. Gempalm Incinerator is a cantrip removal spell that sometimes masquerades as a 2/1 for 3 mana. Goblin Ringleader flips four cards off the top of your deck; the ones that fail the 'Creature - Goblin' check get put back on the bottom whereas those that pass the check you draw. Nice rip for 4 mana amiright? Siege-Gang Commander is 5 power for 5 mana and will straight out kill someone off of stalled boards.

Note that most of these creatures require 'Creature - Goblin' in the type line to be maximized. None of the cards that I have listed are worse than Tarmogoyf in the context of this deck.

I could easily see playing a different deck, but not shoving four Tarmogoyfs into Goblins. They'd immediately be the worst cards in the deck; I can't tutor for them, I can't give them haste, I can't draw them off of Ringleader, and I can't throw them at my dumbshit opponent with a Siege-Gang Commander so they don't get a turn to rip off the top of their deck.

Bane of the Living

09-01-2007, 07:46 AM

Thank god some of you refuse to add goyf to every deck you play. I know the age old strategy is if you cant beat em join em (necropotence, skullclamp, jitte, goyf) but that card really needs to be Skullclamp to be good enough for goblins.

Id be so happy if I was playing combo and my goblins opponent has an opening hand of..

Mountain
Taiga
Goblin Lackey
Gempalm Incinerator
Tarmagoyf
Bloodstained Mire
Tarmagoyf

LoL! Noobsauce!! Look at that wanna be busted hand. What did you pull out of the deck for your goyfs? Maybe the third Siege Banger? Probably a Ringleader since your non goblin count is 8 with goyf..

Really goyf is gonna be the new Wasteland. Put in the wrong decks for the sake of playability..

TheInfamousBearAssassin

09-01-2007, 01:52 PM

How fast are your tarmogoyfs killing? I don't know about you, but mine are usually one point of toughness bigger than Werebears by turn 4.

In a deck with Tarmogoyf, you're going to have to deal with one of four scenarios problematic to Moat:

1) They're playing counters, including Daze.

2) They're playing discard.

3) They've got LD.

4) They've been beating down Sligh style and have a high probability of having you dead through burn.

So, while potentially useful, it's not the back-breaker you might think.

Seriously, how is this card "a different power level"? It's a big dude for not a lot of mana. It comes down on turn 2. OH NO.

OH NOES! So if tomorrow they print a 2 mana 19/19, you're going to talk about how it's fair and anyone who complains about the power curve we used to have is whining? Seriously, how long have you been playing this game again? You might as well bitch that Ancestral Recall is just a one mana Concentrate. Tarmogoyf is a 4/5 or 5/6 for 1G with no real drawback. We don't even have creatures close to that level of efficiency to compare it to. If Lightning Bolt and Mogg Fanatic were banned tomorrow, it would still make Phyrexian Negator look like a piece of crap.

Tons of banned cards are nothing but undercosted. No one cares if Viseling stay around. The fact that Goyf costs two mana less than it should is enough to make it broken, at an entirely different power level than the rest of the metagame, and bannable. The 19/19 would still die to StP, Innocent Blood and Chainer's Edict too, but I wouldn't want it to see print anyway.

DragoFireheart

09-01-2007, 02:21 PM

Peter Olszewski, Threshold
2007 Legacy Championship Winner
Main Deck

60 cards

2 Island
1 Breeding Pool
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
18 lands

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Werebear
4 Nimble Mongoose

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
12 creatures 4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Predict
4 Portent
4 Brainstorm
4 Spell Snare
1 Rushing River
1 Snapback

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
30 other spells
Sideboard

4 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Krosan Grip
2 Hail Storm

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
15 sideboard cards...

Gee, look at that Tarmogoyf :tongue:

This is spam. Make a clear point with your posts.

-PR

Ridiculous Hat

09-01-2007, 02:38 PM

OH NOES! So if tomorrow they print a 2 mana 19/19, you're going to talk about how it's fair and anyone who complains about the power curve we used to have is whining? Seriously, how long have you been playing this game again? You might as well bitch that Ancestral Recall is just a one mana Concentrate. Tarmogoyf is a 4/5 or 5/6 for 1G with no real drawback. We don't even have creatures close to that level of efficiency to compare it to. If Lightning Bolt and Mogg Fanatic were banned tomorrow, it would still make Phyrexian Negator look like a piece of crap.

Tons of banned cards are nothing but undercosted. No one cares if Viseling stay around. The fact that Goyf costs two mana less than it should is enough to make it broken, at an entirely different power level than the rest of the metagame, and bannable. The 19/19 would still die to StP, Innocent Blood and Chainer's Edict too, but I wouldn't want it to see print anyway.There's a world of difference between a 2-mana 19/19 and a 2-mana 4/5 and I'm pretty sure you're aware that you're building a straw man right now.

Tarmogoyf is undercosted for this format-- sure. Every single deck in the format plays at least one card that was costed incorrectly, and right now none of them are broken. I don't really see how Tarmogoyf completely turns the format on its head and is ban-worthy. Compare it to Arcbound Ravager, Goblin Piledriver, or Psychatog. Everyone has complained about banning each of those creatures at some point or another, and so far none of them have been really that bad for the format.

The game is not about "tarmogoyf or no", and if someone plays a turn 2 goyf, it is entirely possible to deal with it within 3 or 4 turns. The card does not go into every deck and does not create any new archetypes. Yes, it's good, and you will not see me arguing against that. But is this format really so weak that a two-mana creature can't be dealt with? How is it at "a completely different power level" from Goblin Lackey or Arcbound Ravager?

My guess is that within the next 3 months, Tarmogoyf will go downhill because people will adapt. Maybe some new decks, maybe some changes to old decks, whatever.

If you want to know what a bannable card looks like, look at Flash. It won by turn 2, completely distorted the metagame, and was only beatable by black or blue cards. Now look at Tarmogoyf: it wins by turn 6 and is beatable by every color.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

09-01-2007, 02:49 PM

It's not a Strawman, it's Reductio Ad Absurdum. Your argument was that Tarmogoyf was simply a large dork for two mana without special protection, evasion, or abilities. But you think that the same casting cost for a 19/19 would be broken, I suppose. So the question becomes; how big can a "vanilla" dork be relative to it's casting cost before you think it's broken? The prior formula for a good deal was roughly; X = 2(Y+1), where X is combined p/t and Y is converted casting cost, with Watchwolf and Isamaru being examples of efficient vanilla beaters. But Tarmogoyf is almost double agian this power level, and unlike other creatures above this curve, such as Werebear or Phyrexian Negator or Jotun Grunt, it has no real drawback beyond the whole "it can be countered or killed" argument. So how big is too big?

Flash wasn't a bannable card. Or it wasn't just a bannable card. Flash was a card so retardedly overpowered that you'd have to be a brain trauma victim not to recognize it needed banning. Flash is the most powerful deck in Vintage from everything I've heard, and the version possible in Legacy was barely, if at all, below it in power level. Flash-Hulk was more powerful than a large majority of the banned list. Lots of cards are less powerful than Flash but should still be banned, including Oath of Druids, Skullclamp, Yawgmoth's Bargain, Timetwister, Mishra's Workshop and plenty others. None of these would be as dominating as Hulk-Flash was, either, but they wouldn't be healthy for the format either. Tarmogoyf is most comparable, on the banned list, to Black Vise, and Tarmogoyf comes out ahead on that comparison by a wide margin as it's an efficient beatstick at every point in the game.

Ridiculous Hat

09-01-2007, 03:14 PM

It's not a Strawman, it's Reductio Ad Absurdum. Your argument was that Tarmogoyf was simply a large dork for two mana without special protection, evasion, or abilities. But you think that the same casting cost for a 19/19 would be broken, I suppose. So the question becomes; how big can a "vanilla" dork be relative to it's casting cost before you think it's broken? The prior formula for a good deal was roughly; X = 2(Y+1), where X is combined p/t and Y is converted casting cost, with Watchwolf and Isamaru being examples of efficient vanilla beaters. But Tarmogoyf is almost double agian this power level, and unlike other creatures above this curve, such as Werebear or Phyrexian Negator or Jotun Grunt, it has no real drawback beyond the whole "it can be countered or killed" argument. So how big is too big?That's an interesting question. I do agree that Goyf is on the cusp, and if it could consistently become 7-power, I would say that it should be banned. The difference between a 3-turn clock and a 4-turn clock is pretty big, and while a 6-power creature doesn't exactly leave a lot of room for error, I don't think Goyf realistically gets up to 6 power early in the game either. I would say that Goyf is usually a 3/4 on turn 2-- I've very rarely seen it be bigger than that by turn 3-- and that doesn't strike me as being too broken.

And for what it's worth, when Threshold or some other major graveyard-centric deck is not involved, Goyf does take some time to grow. Thresh does everything it can to enable the card, but if you put it in a zoo deck, it's gonna be a few turns before it becomes big enough to be noteworthy.

SpatulaOfTheAges

09-01-2007, 03:27 PM

You keep making this assumption that a card has to WIN RIGHT NOW in order to be broken. If that's the case, we'd be able to play with Skullclamp. That card is a tempo-sucking vortex. But it's broken because it's enormously flexible and under-costed for what it does. Thus it finds its way into every deck, and the decks that can't encorporated it for some reason get left behind by the power boost they're missing out on. Thus it warps the format by its omnipresence, if not because it instantly wins.

There aren't any other cards in the format that require so little commitment for such a deadly threat. It can be answered, but it doesn't matter if it is, since the Goyf player isn't really put far behind.

I'll say it again, Goyf = Skullclamp.

Also, Goyf should always be a 4 power dude by turn 3. Instants, sorceries and lands are stupidly easy to throw in the yard. All you need to do is counter or discard or Predict or Mental Note a single permanent into the yard and he's huge, real fast, real cheap. Another permanent and he's bigger yet.

Nihil Credo

09-01-2007, 03:29 PM

And for what it's worth, when Threshold or some other major graveyard-centric deck is not involved, Goyf does take some time to grow. Thresh does everything it can to enable the card, but if you put it in a zoo deck, it's gonna be a few turns before it becomes big enough to be noteworthy.
Actually, the distinction is not near as large as you make it sound. Since the vast majority of Thresh lists have dropped Mental Note, they don't put anything but instants, sorceries and lands in the graveyard with their cantrips. Many run Engineered Explosives, but that is not an early-game card... and UGW's removal consists of StP, which doesn't put creatures in the 'yard. The way they usually get Tarmogoyf above 3/4 is by countering a creature or artifact.

Aggro decks run either Dark Ritual plus 8+ discard spells (and if the opponent has artifacts or enchantments in hand, they tend to be prime targets for those, like Jitte or Deed), or several burn spells in different card types (Bolt, Chain, Seal, Fanatic), or both. And of course they run fetches and/or Wasteland. So, aside from Mono-Green Stompy, an aggro deck's ability to pump 'Goyf is often comparable to Threshold's.

Amon Amarth

09-01-2007, 03:50 PM

I don't think Enchantress can reliably beat Goyf decks. I think you're still fixated on Threshold pre-FS, which had a less efficient clock (but still wasn't a good matchup for Enchantress).

I wouldn't play Enchantress not because it doesn't run Goyf, but because it's not as powerful as decks that run Goyf.

Odd, I have had absolutely no problems with any Goyf decks with Enchantress at all and I'm not even running Moat. Having a ridiculous card drawing engine that's nigh undisruptable and a hard lock works well enough. Goyf really isn't that much better of clock than what Thresh was running previously. Sometimes it can get up to a 5 power guy but not on turn 3 all the time.

Again I don't think saying that decks with Goyf are more powerful than decks that don't run Goyf. I don't think draw any meaningful conclusions that way. It's just too vague. Control decks that don't run Tarmogoyf should have no problem beating Goyf decks. It really didn't change the dynamics of those matchups at all because they don't play same game Goyf decks are playing. He's a beast in combat but Tarmogoyf still dies to all the relevant removal in the format.

dicemanx

09-01-2007, 06:13 PM

I can appreciate the idea that Tarmogoyf is well above the power level of most cards, and is "broken" in this format. However, I don't know if that necessarily translates into a problem. While the Gencon results suggest that the Threshhold deck with Tarmogoyf is the strongest archetype right now, the top 8 isn't reflective of the fact that the format has a lot of variety and features a number of scary match-ups for the Threshhold deck (indeed, I'd count 43 land as a tough match-up for instance). I think Legacy is a very exciting, skill intensive format, moreso than T1 at this moment, and many match-ups involve important subtleties that can decide match outcomes rather than merely riding a Tarmogoyf to victory (or in the Goblin days, using your Lackey and/or Vial to toss out an overwhelming army of Goblins to swarm your opponent).

Fortunately, and predictably there were no changes to the format in terms of the B/R list this Sept 1st, so we have an opportunity to see how the metagame progresses from here on in. Gencon showcased the strength of several archetypes (43 land, Ichorid, and Cephalid Breakfast) and while I'm no expert on these archetypes, observing them in action and playing against them led me to conclude that things are rarely as simple or black and white as they are made out to be in forum discussions.

Shriekmaw

09-01-2007, 08:02 PM

I was briefly looking through the top 32 decklists from the Legacy World Championship and was very surprised to see so many Threshold decks do very well. I realize that Threshold is a very powerful and consistent deck, but since Landstill is kind of popular around here in Syracuse I haven't really played a Threshold deck in a really long time.

I was glad to see that Bomholt did fairly well with his Iggy Pop deck despite all the control decks floating around recently. It was a very interesting tournament and hopefully I will be able to make the trip next year.

Congrads to Mad Zur (Jessie Hatfield) for a top 4 slot and also Alix Hatfield for taking 24th place, both with breakfast.

Clark Kant

09-01-2007, 10:56 PM

You guys are blowing Goyf out of proportion.

In thresh (the deck best apt at abusing him), it's an improved Werebear. Is the card fantastic, yes. But it's not all that far beyond Werebear, Jotun Grunt, Negator etc's powerlevel.

If you recall, the first month and a half that the card was out, people were questioning whether it was even worth playing in Thresh (the deck its by far the most abusable in). If back then, I suggested playing the creature in stuff like 9 land stompy or Sui Black, I would have been laughed at. Which I am fine with, because otherwise, I wouldn't have been able to pick up multiple playsets of the card for $1 each.

Even now, I don't think he's all that scary in any non Thresh aggro decks. People just see him as a slightly bigger Werebear in thresh and automatically assume that he gets that big in every deck that runs him, not just Thresh.

So no, not every aggro deck should be running him. Goblins shouldn't be, and neither should Naughty Fairies/Dreadnought is a Fairie. It's even up for debate whether Green Death is indeed better than Red Death. And those are just the pure aggro decks. We haven't even gotten to stuff like Enchantress and other creature based decks.