Hot hot hot Duplicant-on-Goyf Sex

[MattH]

If you Duplicant a Tarmogoyf, how big is the Duplicant? Variable? Last known information?

[Meekrab]

Gatherer sayeth:


12/1/2004 If the imprinted card has a "*" in its power or toughness, the value of is 0.

[Tacosnape]

For a more elaborate reason behind this, Tarmogoyf's */* are defined by a characteristic-setting ability (There's that obscure term again!) that the Tarmogoyf has.

Duplicant does not copy this ability, therefore Duplicant has no ability defining what its */* would be. An undefined */*, much like an undefined X, is always treated in Magic as being 0.

[gnurbel2000]

Doesn't it have to be the same power/toughness as the Tarmogoyfs?
Although the Duplicant doesn't copy Tarmogoyfs characteristic stetting, Tarmogoyf still has a defined power/toughness in play and in all other zones.

As far as i know the rule that a creature p/t' * is only defined when its in play was changed with Timespiral(?) to its current version. So the old ruling from 2004 on Gatherer is obsolete.

208.2 Some creature cards have power and/or toughness represented by a * instead of a number. The object has a characteristic-defining ability that sets its power and/or toughness according to some stated condition. This ability functions in all zones. If the ability needs to use a number that can't be determined, use 0 instead of that number.

Let's say we have a 3/4 Tarmogoyf in play and we play a Duplicant. Although the Duplicant doesn't copy Tarmogoyfs characteristic setting ability it still copys its actual p/t. So we get a Duplicant with 3/4, because the removed Tarmogoyf is still 3/4. It will always be a 3/4.
The Duplicants ability depends on Tarmogoyfs ability.

418.5c An effect is said to "depend on" another if (a) it's applied in the same layer (and, if applicable, sublayer) as the other effect (see rule 418.5a); (b) applying the other would change the text or the existence of the first effect, what it applies to, or what it does to any of the things it applies to; and (c) neither effect is from a characteristic-defining ability. Otherwise, the effect is considered to be independent of the other effect.

If you can read german, here is another example with Duplicant and Korlash.
http://www.mercadia.de/home/page.php?site=inter/mpf/viewthread&id=474730&bp=1&p=2

[Ewokslayer]

Let's say we have a 3/4 Tarmogoyf in play and we play a Duplicant. Although the Duplicant doesn't copy Tarmogoyfs characteristic setting ability it still copys its actual p/t. So we get a Duplicant with 3/4, because the removed Tarmogoyf is still 3/4. It will always be a 3/4.
The Duplicants ability depends on Tarmogoyfs ability.


The Tarmogoyf won't always be a 3/4. If a new card type enters the graveyard than the imprinted goyf would be a 4/5.
I imagine that Duplicant will act very much like sutured ghoul and continually check the P/T of the removed creature(s). Thus changing the contents of the graveyard changes the Duplicant's P/T

[APriestOfGix]

The Tarmogoyf won't always be a 3/4. If a new card type enters the graveyard than the imprinted goyf would be a 4/5.
I imagine that Duplicant will act very much like sutured ghoul and continually check the P/T of the removed creature(s). Thus changing the contents of the graveyard changes the Duplicant's P/T

I'm going to say no there. Reasoning: This is messed up!

Ban Tarmogoyf and fix all these rules issues, and get rid of a GROSSLY overpowered creature.

So the simple answer hopefully in a few months...

You can't imprint Tarmogofy on Duplicant, cause Tarmogoyf isn't legal...

[noobslayer]

Tarmogoyf is easy to deal with. Seriously, once the initial questions about obscure interactions are out of the way, it won't be confusing. Honestly, if people are so afraid of Tarmogoyf, they should just start running StP and Engineered Explosives/Pernicious Deed.

[Machinus]

My guess is the Duplicant becomes a 6cc shapeshifter lhurgoyf artifact creature with Tarmogoyf's p/t setting ability.

[Nihil Credo]

My guess is the Duplicant becomes a 6cc shapeshifter lhurgoyf artifact creature with Tarmogoyf's p/t setting ability.
Close, but that's not quite accurate. Duplicant, like Sutured Ghoul, does not copy the Goyf's characteristic-defining ability; it references the Goyf's p/t, which are still updated even in the RFG zone (which is where an Imprinted card resides).

What is the difference? Well, if you Living Wish for a Tarmogoyf that got eaten by Duplicant, the Duplicant will turn into a 0/0; if it worked like you said, it would still be a 4/5 or whatever.

Edit: 600th post, go go pointless celebrations!

[Machinus]

Close, but that's not quite accurate. Duplicant, like Sutured Ghoul, does not copy the Goyf's characteristic-defining ability; it references the Goyf's p/t, which are still updated even in the RFG zone (which is where an Imprinted card resides).

What is the difference? Well, if you Living Wish for a Tarmogoyf that got eaten by Duplicant, the Duplicant will turn into a 0/0; if it worked like you said, it would still be a 4/5 or whatever.

I meant that the ability would set the P/T, not that the text would be on the new duplicant.

I'm not sure your scenario is true. Duplicant copies the card it removes, so it doesn't matter where the original creature ends up since the ability functions in all zones.

[Nihil Credo]

Tarmogoyf's ability works even if Wish brings it back to your hand, but Duplicant, like all imprint cards, can no longer find its imprinted cards once it leaves the RFG zone. This is why an Isochron Scepter becomes nonfunctional if you Cunning Wish for the card you imprinted on it.

[Ewokslayer]

Close, but that's not quite accurate. Duplicant, like Sutured Ghoul, does not copy the Goyf's characteristic-defining ability; it references the Goyf's p/t, which are still updated even in the RFG zone (which is where an Imprinted card resides).

What is the difference? Well, if you Living Wish for a Tarmogoyf that got eaten by Duplicant, the Duplicant will turn into a 0/0; if it worked like you said, it would still be a 4/5 or whatever.

Edit: 600th post, go go pointless celebrations!


Wouldn't the Duplicant revert to a 2/4 if you Living Wish for the imprinted card?
There is no longer a creature imprinted on Duplicant thus the last lines of its text
As long as a creature card is imprinted on Duplicant, Duplicant has the power, toughness, and creature types of the last creature card imprinted on it. no longer apply.

[Nihil Credo]

2/4, sorry. I only checked the rules text, I didn't actually look at the p/t box. I assumed it was 0/0, like Clone and its ilk.