PDA

View Full Version : [REPORT] 12th Place w/BHWC Landstill @ GenCon Legacy World Champs



URABAHN
09-03-2007, 10:06 AM
During the 1st Evar Source Unhinged Draft at GP Columbus, I asked myself why I was more focused on the “fun” event than the real event. I made a promise to myself to play more Magic and be better prepared for big events. The first real test was the

Fuddruckers Tournament in Annandale

3 Mishra’s Factory
4 Tundra
3 Nantuko Monastery
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
3 Flooded Strand

2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Crime//Punishment
4 Force of Will
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Stifle
4 Counterspell
3 Fact or Fiction
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Diabolic Edict

Sideboard
4 Meddling Mage
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Extirpate

Round 1 vs. Andrew Walter playing R/g Goblins - LOST

I threw caution to the wind and didn’t bother to put Engineered Plague in the sideboard because I didn’t expect to see Goblins. I think you can figure out how well I did in Game 1 and 2.

Round 2 vs. BYE – WON

Round 3 vs. Mr. Nightmare playing The EPIC Landstill – WON

Landstill mirrors don’t usually get to Game 2; I was in a dicey situation against some manlands and not enough removal in my hand. At a critical point in Game 1, I play Pernicious Deed, which resolves, and play Standstill, which resolves. During my End of Turn step, Nightmare cycles Decree for lethal damage when combined with the manlands. During his turn he animates his manlands and swings for lethal, so I activate Deed for 0 before damage goes on the stack. He breaks Standstill with Stifle and I draw 2 Counterspells off the Ancestral. I counter Stifle, he FoWs, and I counter again. Mr. Nightmare doesn’t play Crucible of Worlds so Deed kills his manlands dead.

In Game 2, we run out of time.

Round 4 vs. Sean Park (Reanimated) playing U/G/r Thresh – WON

Every time I wish for a Gro matchup in a tournament, I lose, good thing I didn’t ask to play Thresh this time. Game 1 is an absolute beating for me because Sean has the most awesome hand vs. Landstill. I play Standstill on Turn 2, he dazes it, and plays Tarmogoyf on his turn. I play Edict targeting him, he FoWs and plays another creature on his turn. I play Swords targeting Tarmogoyf, he plays Counterspell and beats the hell out of me over the next few turns. In case you’re wondering, I found no Counterspells or FoWs during Game 1.

Game 2 and 3 went the way it’s supposed to, he tries to Daze Standstill, I fight over it with FoW and it sticks, I draw lots of removal, counterspells, and more draw spells and win the match.

Round 5 vs. Will Walsh playing Smart Goblins - DRAW

No 1st Turn Lackey, no Wastelands, and no Vial allow me to slowly establish control in Game 1, which ends with 8 or 13 minutes left in the Round depending on who we asked. In Game 2, Will gets a saucy start and my back is pretty much against the wall looking at Piledriver, Matron, Ringleader, and maybe another green man. On my 4th Turn, I play Pernicious Deed. On his turn, he plays Disenchant targeting Deed. I have no FoW and get stomped. I think we cut and presented just in time to hear time called in the Round, so we don’t get to play Game 3. Landstill draws with Goblins? What kinda format is this?

Round 6 vs. Scott Scheurer (overlord95), Retired – LOST

A win and I’m in Top 8! I beat the mirror earlier, would I be so lucky this time? Nope. Scott seemed to be a step ahead of me the entire match. Swords his manland, counter. Edict his manland, counter. Swords my Monastery, it resolves. There’s not much more to say, I drew lots of lands, some removal, but no counterspells to stop his counterspells.

Final Record 3-2-1, CONTACT!

I felt like I played well enough to win, which is a huge difference in how I felt at GP Columbus. I was focused, I only made 2 minor mistakes the entire day, the most memorable was Game 2 vs. Andrew Walter when I played Deed and passed priority when he had a Lackey and Vial in play and got Krosan Gripped. There was no good reason to pass priority and I would learn from this mistake at GenCon.

GenCon Prelims

I “raw dogged” Permanent Waves and got my ass handed to me (1-3 drop). It’s an interesting deck with lots of potential, but I’m not skilled enough to pick up something new and expect to do well. Game 1 went to me plenty of times, but then I’d proceed to lose the next 2. Ouch. By the way, slops to Pastimes for the 2 hour delay between Round 3 and 4. I heard they did the same thing at Indiana Regionals. Next year, I think I’ll pass on Prelims because I’d rather have a nice dinner, get some rest, and play well at the World Championships.

GenCon Legacy World Championships

Mad Zur and Obfuscate Freely keep winning despite procrastination and last minute preparation. In sharing a room with them, I found myself in the same boat the morning before the tournament. I was struggling with the sideboard choices because I felt the sideboard from the Annandale tournament wouldn’t be right considering the metagame. I looked to T is for TOOL, Machinus, Mad Zur, and Obfuscately Freely for help. We all agreed that I needed an answer for Goblins, because more people would be playing it than two weeks ago. Everybody and their mother were playing Wasteland the night before, so I cut Extirpate for Teferi’s Response. I’ve never been happy with Extirpate except when I draw it against Ichorid. I like it against Gro, but it’s more of an “I win more” card. I never liked it against Landstill because you still need to kill the manlands they have in play. The guys convinced me that I wouldn’t need Blue Elemental Blast because there would be few players, if any, playing Blood Moon and it’s only marginally useful against Burn. I decided on 3x Krosan Grip for pesky Pithing Needles, Counterbalances, and maybe even the Landstill mirror. Engineered Explosives was a decent last minute addition because I needed something useful to take the last spot in my board. With ten minutes to spare, I race to the TCG Hall and sign up for Legacy Champs. I was in such a hurry I forgot to put in my contacts--I was nearly blind the whole tournament!

3 Mishra’s Factory
4 Tundra
3 Nantuko Monastery
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
3 Flooded Strand

2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Crime//Punishment
4 Force of Will
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Stifle
4 Counterspell
3 Fact or Fiction
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Diabolic Edict

Sideboard
4 Meddling Mage
3 Teferi’s Response
4 Engineered Plague
3 Krosan Grip
1 Engineered Explosives

Round 1 vs. White Weenie – WIN

My opponent plays Plains, Taps for a White mana, and plays Glittering Lynx. Yeah, you read that right, Glittering Lynx. It’s two games of destroying his men, destroying his AEther Vials, destroying his equipment, drawing lots of cards, and winning with manlands. At one point he plays Karakas with an AEther vial on the table and I call a judge to ask for the converted mana cost of Mangara of Corondor, thinking he’s maybe playing Death and Taxes. After the match he tells me he plays Karakas in case he wants to bounce his Jitte. Yup, he thought Karakas bounced any Legendary permanent. If this match was any indication, the early rounds of this tournament would be a stark contrast from the sophisticated metagame at the Fuddruckers tournament. I sided out Standstill for Krosan Grip and Engineered Explosives, because Vial makes Standstill a very bad card.

Round 2 vs. Black discard and LD – WIN

My opponent’s creature base consisted of Hypnotic Specters and Dark Confidants. It was like Deadguy Ale without White. I remember playing Standstill Turn 2, he plays Hymn to Tourach, cracking Standstill, and I FoW in response. I Swords a Hypnotic Specter here and there, and beat in with manlands eventually reducing his life total to 0. Remember what I said about the number of Wasteland the night before and what I put in the board, Game 2 would prove to be very interesting. -3 Stifles, +3 Teferi’s Response. My opponent plays Turn 3 Icequake and I respond with Teferi’s Response. He looks at the card, looks at Obfuscate Freely behind me (he wandered over during his 2nd Round Bye), and says “This is the most random sideboard card ever!” Ob. Freely kinda shrugs and says “Yup.” So I keep my land, he loses his Icequake, and I trade Teferi’s Response for two cards. Good times. I play a land for my turn and pass. My opponent plays Wasteland, activates it targeting my Tropical Island, and says “I hope you don’t have a--” at which point I play another Teferi’s Response and can hardly keep myself from laughing. Don’t get me wrong, I was laughing at the guy, I was laughing at how unbelievably lucky I was. So I get to keep my Tropical Island, he loses a Wasteland, and I trade Teferi’s Response for two more cards. Good times. It doesn’t take long to establish control after that and the manlands go the distance.

Round 3 vs. R/g Goblins -- WIN

Speaking how unbelievably lucky I was last game, that was nothing compared to this Round. My opponent opens with Turn 1 Lackey, which I FoW. Next turn he plays AEther Vial, which I FoW. Next turn he plays Goblin Warchief, which I Edict. I play a Standstill or two, draw lots of cards, kill lots of Goblins, and go into the really late game because I’m just as happy going 1-0 then potentially losing against one of my worst matchups. Eventually he scoops. -4 Standstill, +4 Engineered Plague. His opening hand is even less spectacular than before (Mountain, Mogg Fanatic). Over my next 3 Turns, I play Fetch, Fetch, Mishra’s Factory, and crack both Fetchlands to play Engineered Plague. It would prove to be enough as the manlands hold down the fort and provide enough offense to rack up the “W”. Afterwards, I found out my opponent sided out Vial because he didn't think they'd be any good against Landstill!

Round 4 vs. Drew Idoux playing Stifle/Dreadnought – WIN

“How in the world did Stifle/Dreadnought go 3-0 in this tournament?” That thought kept running through my mind during our match. Taking nothing away from Drew, who placed 16th, I was just stunned that Stifle/Dreadnought made it this far. I imagine it’s an absolute house against Goblins and other aggro strategies, but 3-0? In Game 1, I find plenty of removal for his Phyrexian Dreadnoughts, establish control and chip away at his life total with the manlands. -3 Stifle (I’m not about to Stifle his Dreadnaught for him!), +3 Krosan Grip. In Game 2, I keep a Counter-less hand with a mana curve that started at 3. In hindsight, it probably wasn’t the best hand to keep, I simply wasn’t prepared for how fast Stifle Dreadnaught can be. Drew plays another Island, Lotus Petal, Dreadnaught, and Stifles the coming into play effect. I have no response and the Dreadnaught bashes my face for the next two turns. Game 3 plays out similar to Game 1, except for the surprise Back to Basics he brought in from the board, which I was lucky enough to have a FoW for.

Round 5 vs. Lam Phan playing Red Thresh – WIN

There’s no shortage of excellent Thresh players in my area, so I feel pretty good about this match, even though he’s playing Wasteland and Stifle. Lam plays the deck pretty aggressively, which can backfire because it makes my board sweepers a 2-for or 3-for, but it also puts me on a clock to find those sweepers or other removal in a hurry. Game 1 goes about as well as I can hope for, Turn 2 Standstill, Draw 3 cards, kill animals, beat down with manlands. -3 Stifle, +3 Krosan Grip (for Counterbalance, though I suppose Stifle can be somewhat effective against Counterbalance). Remember last round when I keep a hand with a mana curve that starts at 3? Yeah, I didn’t learn my fucking lesson and Lam puts my back against the wall and kills me before I can even try to catch up with Deed or E.E.

I nearly throw away Game 3 when I resolve Fact or Fiction on the board staring at a Nimble Mongoose. The rest of the cards in my hand are not land and my FoF goes something like Land, Land, Monastery (I do not have threshold yet), Deed, Swords. Lam puts Deed and Swords in one pile, Lands in the other. I take the lands because I’m not sure when I’m going to find my next land drop. In retrospect, it was a colossal mistake to take the lands because I had no removal spells! Next turn he plays Tarmogoyf and I’m wishing I took Deed and Swords. On my turn, I draw Pernicious Deed, but I’m worried about Countermagic and Stifle. I play it anyway, it resolves, I activate Deed for 2, and IT RESOLVES. He doesn’t play another creature (Mongoose) until a few turns later, but by then I’ve double monastery in play which take turns swinging for 4 First Strike damage.

I’m not trying to brag, but boarding in against Thresh is something like the millions of ways to skin a cat. Extirpate is good if you get one of their creatures in the yard, which is bound to happen sooner or later. Stifle stops their fetches (and Wastelands, if they’re playing it). Krosan Grip is an uncounterable solution to Pithing Needle, an excellent answer to Counterbalance, and Sensei’s Diving Top, sometimes. No matter what flavor of control you’re playing, to beat Thresh all you gotta do is put their 8-14 guys in the ‘yard. If you’re playing Control in Legacy, you’re probably playing at least a dozen creature removal spells. Make Wrath, Wing Shards or Deed at least 1-for-1 and put their men in the ‘yard. I imagine Wasteland makes the matchup more positive for Gro, but it’s still very favorable for you. As I overheard Owen Turtenwald explain to his Thresh opponent in Round 3, Wasteland’s not good in Threshold. It doesn’t cast any of your cantrips and it doesn’t provide green mana.

Round 6 vs. Ernest Turck playing Ichorid – LOSS

Have you heard about this new deck? This deck made freakin’ Top 8 at GenCon Legacy World Championships (all forthcoming sarcasm aside, Ernest was a gentlemen and excellent player). I played against this new hotness in Round 6 as you can see from the Round 6 matchup! If I don’t talk about Ichorid I’m afraid someone on The Source will become very upset!

I win Game 1 because my opponent doesn’t find any dredge guys until Turn 6 or 8 and all he has is a Swamp in play. The game plays out for a considerable chunk of the round and eventually I win. -4 Standstill, -1 Crime//Punishment, +4 Engineered Plague, +1 Engineered Explosives. In Game 2 he goes absolutely busted! He drops LED, discards a bunch of cards (his whole hand) including Deep Analysis and replaces his draws with Dredge, Dredging up more Dredge guys, Ichorids, and Bridge from Below. Ernest plays Breakthrough on his next turn, it resolves, and then he replaces his Draws with Dredge, Dredging up more Dredge guys, Ichorids, and Bridge from Below! DO YOU SEE A PATTERN HERE? THOSE ICHORIDS ARE BEATING MY FACE IN AND CREATING ZOMBIE TOKENS! I have never seen this before and I think Machinus should have given this deck more than table scraps in his tournament report. I’ll try to succeed where he failed! I die after the Ichorids and Zombie Tokens beat my face in. Man, this must be an awful matchup for Landstill, because Standstill isn’t very good in this matchup! My sideboard isn’t equipped for this opponent!

Game 3 plays out just long enough that we go to time. During the 2nd turn, Ernest plays Dread Return targeting Flame-Kin Zealot and swings just enough guys that I go 2 life. I have a lone Brainstorm in hand and I’m looking for a board sweeper so I crack a fetch and go to 1 Life. I draw a Land for the turn, and Brainstorm into nothing that will save me. GAME OVER, MAN! It’s possible that I made a mistake earlier with Pernicious Deed, a manland, and Bridge from Below. The Bridge trigger won’t put a Zombie token into play if Bridge isn’t there when the trigger resolves. Unfortunately, because your opponent controls Bridge from Below, your opponent can stack the triggered effect however they like. You'd need two sweepers, one to kill off your creature (animated manland), and another one to deal with all the freshly made Zombie tokens.

Round 7 vs. Daniel Pische playing White Thresh – WIN

When I’m playing Landstill and I’m playing against Thresh, I want to see Tundra on that side of the table. Of all the flavors of Thresh I want to play against, it has got to be White. I’ll take Jotun Grunt or Meddling Mage in the maindeck everyday over Lightning Bolt because a couple of swings from Tarmogoyf + the 3 or 4 Lightning Bolts the Thresh player will find because the game goes on so long will probably kill you. With that being said, here’s how the match played out. Daniel wins the die roll in Game 1 and goes first. He plays Tropical Island and Serum Visions on Turn 1, Counterbalance on Turn 2, to which I have no answer. I play Standstill on Turn 2 and he flips up Portent for the Counterbalance trigger. He has no further effects and Standstill resolves. Good times. Daniel breaks Standstill, I draw a bunch of cards, kill the 8-14 guys he plays, draw more cards, yeah, it’s a beating. Even after I establish control, it takes me quite sometime to kill him and I wonder why he doesn’t scoop. -3 Stifle, +3 Krosan Grip.

Daniel plays 1st Turn Mongoose and a Brainstorm, Fetch on his 2nd turn. On my 2nd turn, I play Mishra’s Factory and Standstill, and we fight over it, but it resolves. He breaks the Standstill, I draw a bunch of cards, kill the 10-14 guys he plays, draw more cards, yup, it’s a beating. At one point, I play one of the 3 Krosan Grip in my hand targeting Mishra’s Factory to avoid Swords to Plowshares so I can return it after combat with Crucible of Worlds. Later in the game, I allow Jotun Grunt to stay in play for 3 turns because I have a Monastery on defense. After that I resolve Pernicious Deed and before I pass priority, my opponent plays Krosan Grip. I ask him if this is in response to Deed or when it’s in play, to which he confirms the latter. I explain to him I haven’t passed priority back to him yet so I’m going to sack Deed for 2 which would destroy his Grunt and Mongoose. Things proceeded as normal after that.

After I win and we both sign the slip, I’m thinking of Top 8 action.

Round 8 vs. Marty Birthelmer playing BHWC Landstill – LOSS (oh, no!)

The Top 3 seeds intentionally draw with their opponent which means there are 8 people competing for the last 5 spots in Top 8. I’m the 7th seed and I paired against the 8th seed, and our tiebreakers aren’t the greatest. Marty doesn’t feel good about his chances to draw into Top 8 so he declines my offer to draw. He knows what I’m playing, I don’t know what he’s playing, and before the match he says it’s a bad matchup for him. Strange. He wins the die roll, plays Tundra and passes. I play Tundra and pass. He plays Underground Sea and passes the Turn. Maybe I should’ve suspected Landstill mirror at this point, but hindsight is always 20/20 and my hand did have a Monastery, Mishra’s and Standstill, which I play on my turn with my own Underground Sea and Tundra. Next turn he plays Monastery and it’s a race to Threshold with a Standstill on the table. Marty finds an additional Monastery and gets to threshold faster than I do and cracks in with Monastery. I break Standstill with Swords to Plowshares, it gets Countered, I play Diabolic Edict, it gets Countered, I Counter back, and he Counters back. I scoop a couple of turns later. -4 Standstill, -1 Engineered Explosives, -1 Crime and Punishment, +3 Krosan Grip, +3 Teferi’s Response. E.E. and Crime//Punishment won’t do me any good against manlands, Teferi’s Response will help keep my manlands in play.

In retrospect, I don’t know if this was the right way to board, but then again, I didn’t know he was going to board in Meddling Mage. I FoW his Crucible of Worlds on his 3rd turn pitching Teferi’s Response and FoW sticks. A bit later, he plays Meddling Mage naming Pernicious Deed, and I have one in my hand, but Brainstorm and Fetch it away. Mage and Mishra’s start the process of chipping away at my life total and I try to defend myself as best I can with my own Mishra’s Factory and the removal in my hand. The Swords to Plowshares I play targeting Marty’s Factory is countered, as is a second Swords to Plowshares. I try to block Mage with Mishra’s Factory, Marty plays Swords to Plowshares, I respond with Teferi’s Response, which he counters. Just like the match against overlord95 (Retired), Marty seemed to be one step ahead of me the entire match. I draw more lands that don’t matter and my hopes of making Top 8 are dashed. I spoke with Marty about 4-color Landstill after the match. Turns out, he was planning to play Solidarity, but then switched to BHWC right before the tournament. Good choice! He told me Wasteland gives him mana issues (not having the right color), but he likes wastelock as a kinda win condition. I told him that’s the trade-off with 4-color Landstill, do you want to win some games with wastelock, or do you want to have a more stable mana base?

I congratulated him on his Top 8 win and watched him lose to U/G/r Thresh in the Quarterfinals because Marty couldn’t find another black source of mana after Dave Caplan Wastes an Underground Sea. Marty had 2 Innocent Blood in his hand, how sad! According to the list on the WotC website, Dave Caplan only ran 8 creatures. I wonder how different the match would’ve been if Marty actually got to play removal spells. In Game 2 Marty has trouble finding colored sources of mana, he has Tropical Island, Wasteland, Monastery, and Monastery in play when Dave’s creatures eat his face.

To the Victor Goes the Spoils

For placing 12th, I won a pack of P3K, Italian Revised, Italian Legends, and 2 drafts sets of Time Spiral. I didn’t get anything amazing from the first 3 packs or the draft sets for that matter. Thanks to all my homies in the VA for helping me with Landstill and making me a better player! I’m playing great right now and it’s mostly because of you all.

URABAHN
09-03-2007, 10:06 AM
Cards I Don’t Play With, and People Wonder Why

Decree of Justice – My problem with Decree is how it’s only good in the late game. How many are going to go to the late game that Landstill isn’t already winning? Opponents of this train of thought will tell you, “But it cycles! You can make 2 guys!” Big freakin’ deal. Maybe I should play a card that’ll actually be useful when I draw it. Rabid Wombat, Rifter, Quinn the Mighty Eskimo make their land drops more consistently because of Cycling cards and Scrying Sheets. I think Decree is more useful in those decks because they’ll have more land for Decree in the mid-game.

Tarmogoyf – Aside from the poor synergy with Pernicious Deed, Tarmogoyf doesn’t come back from the dead like Mishra’s Factory and Nantuko Monastery (Crucible of Worlds). Tarmogoyf is also vulnerable to Sorcery speed creature removal. Recurring manland win conditions aren’t nearly as susceptible to Sorcery speed removal and I like that better than ‘goyf. Does Landstill really need a 3/4 or 4/5 beater on Turn 2 or 3?

Crime//Punishment – I’m cutting the singleton Crime//Punishment in favor of a 2nd Engineered Explosives in the maindeck because it does the same thing Punishment does at instant speed. The 4% of the time I’ve used Crime to steal a Street Wraith or Serra Avenger out of someone’s graveyard isn’t worth it.

Wrath of God or Damnation – I never had the opportunity to play Pernicious Deed in Standard or Extended and I think it’s better in Landstill than either WoG or Damnation. I experimented with several flavors of Landstill from the Running GAGG tournament to right before GP Columbus, U/B, U/W, U/W/b, U/W/g, and I think BHWC is the best flavor for me mostly because of Pernicious Deed. There’s usually something else on the board other than a creature, be it a AEther Vial, Counterbalance, Chalice of the Void, Seat of the Synod, Chrome Mox, LED, I think you get the picture. Deed takes care of all this at instant speed. With Landstill growing(?) in popularity, I think you need Deed to take care of Faerie Conclave, Mishra’s Factory, and Nantuko Monastery.

Mishra’s Factory #4 – Why I don’t run the 4th Mishra’s Factory is basically the same reason I don’t run Wasteland. I wanted another colored source of mana, a way to shuffle away Brainstorm cards, and I really like Monastery as a 3-of. If it’s good enough for Nantuko Monastery, why not Mishra’s Factory?

Gifts Ungiven - The major difference between Gifts and FoF is with FoF, you get to pick the cards you want to keep. FoF can and will get you more cards than Gifts, digs deep into your deck, and builds Threshold. But most importantly, you get to choose what you want to keep.

gnurbel2000
09-03-2007, 11:38 AM
(...)

Round 6 vs. Ernest Turck playing Ichorid – LOSS



Game 3 plays out just long enough that we go to time. During the 2nd turn, Ernest plays Dread Return targeting Flame-Kin Zealot and swings just enough guys that I go 2 life. I have a lone Brainstorm in hand and I’m looking for a board sweeper so I crack a fetch and go to 1 Life. I draw a Land for the turn, and Brainstorm into nothing that will save me. GAME OVER, MAN! It’s possible that I made a mistake earlier with Pernicious Deed, a manland, and Bridge from Below. The Bridge trigger won’t put a Zombie token into play if Bridge isn’t there when the trigger resolves. Because of the way simultaneous triggered effects work, sac Deed during your opponent’s turn killing his guys and your animated manland. Active player’s triggered effects go on the stack first (his guys landing in the yard triggering Bridge), then yours (your guys landing in the yard triggering Bridge). Your trigger resolves first, Bridge goes RFG, and your opponent doesn’t get Zombies.

(...)


You can animate your manland to rfg the Bridges, but if you are removing some Narcomoebas or Ichorids too then you'll give your opponent some tokens too. Since the source of all the triggers is the opponents Bridge, he can choose in which order the trigger are stacked.

Btw good report :)

Machinus
09-03-2007, 11:45 AM
Nice sideboard tech : )

Thanks for the report, and props for arranging the trip.

JACO
09-03-2007, 10:58 PM
Congratulations to another person piloting BHWC Landstill! I saw that Marty played it, and did well, and good for him. He's been playing it for a while now.


Cards I Don’t Play With, and People Wonder Why

Decree of JusticeThis was actually in BHWC Landstill for a while, before we cut it for other utility cards, generally because it is too slow to be stuck in your hand any time during the first 6 turns. Obviously it is fantastic against opposing Landstill decks, but no one plays Landstill anymore (well, almost no one).


Tarmogoyf – Aside from the poor synergy with Pernicious Deed, Tarmogoyf doesn’t come back from the dead like Mishra’s Factory and Nantuko Monastery (Crucible of Worlds).You've got this spot on. One of the benefits of Landstill is that it generally makes opposing removal useless, or dead cards in the opponents hand. Playing creatures nullifies this benefit, and Tarmogoyf is just better in general when backed by tons of free counters (such as in Threshold).


Crime//Punishment – I’m cutting the singleton Crime//Punishment in favor of a 2nd Engineered Explosives in the maindeck because it does the same thing Punishment does at instant speed.Crime/Punishment sucks in here because it's a sorcery. This is the same reason I don't run Chainer's Edict or Innocent Blood. End of turn effects are too powerful to ignore. Explosives is a good choice for the 'utility' (aka Disenchant slot).


Wrath of God or DamnationSorceries are bad, not to mention that these cards suck balls against combo.


Gifts Ungiven - The major difference between Gifts and FoF is with FoF, you get to pick the cards you want to keep. FoF can and will get you more cards than Gifts, digs deep into your deck, and builds Threshold. But most importantly, you get to choose what you want to keep.You are spot on in your assesment of this as well.

Teferi's Response in the board is great against BW Confidant and the mirror, and actually used to be in the main deck (instead of Stifle, which has just proven to be too valuable over time). Krosan Grip is in our sideboard now too, and is seemingly the best choice now for removal, especially in light of Counterbalance popping up more frequently. This list is very close to ours, but I'll give you a hint and tell you how fantastic Spell Snare is in this deck. For your next go around. ; )

Congratulations on a good performance!

TheAardvark
09-04-2007, 12:40 PM
I congratulated him on his Top 8 win and watched him lose to U/G/r Thresh in the Quarterfinals because Marty couldn’t find another black source of mana after Dave Caplan Wastes an Underground Sea. Marty had 2 Innocent Blood in his hand, how sad! According to the list on the WotC website, Dave Caplan only ran 8 creatures. I wonder how different the match would’ve been if Marty actually got to play removal spells. In Game 2 Marty has trouble finding colored sources of mana, he has Tropical Island, Wasteland, Monastery, and Monastery in play when Dave’s creatures eat his face.


This is kinda what happened to me vs. Dave as well. He Wasted my only black source in Game 3 and I couldn't find another, even with Top, so I lost. 8 creature decks should never beat decks with so much removal, but that's what Wasteland does, so whatever.

Eldariel
09-04-2007, 01:11 PM
Isn't that kind of the conscious risk you take when playing a 4-colour deck with 24 lands, 7 of which are colourless and none of which are basic? I mean, whenever playing 4 colours, I don't think you can ever call a deck with even just 4 Wastelands an autowin even if they plan on killing with Eager Cadet.

goobafish
09-04-2007, 01:12 PM
I congratulated him on his Top 8 win and watched him lose to U/G/r Thresh in the Quarterfinals because Marty couldn’t find another black source of mana after Dave Caplan Wastes an Underground Sea. Marty had 2 Innocent Blood in his hand, how sad! According to the list on the WotC website, Dave Caplan only ran 8 creatures. I wonder how different the match would’ve been if Marty actually got to play removal spells. In Game 2 Marty has trouble finding colored sources of mana, he has Tropical Island, Wasteland, Monastery, and Monastery in play when Dave’s creatures eat his face.


Yeah, If he had a black source stick, I would have lost. He showed me his hand after the match.


I hope you didn't see the game 2 against Marty, I made two terribly embarrassing and ridiculous mistakes.



This is kinda what happened to me vs. Dave as well. He Wasted my only black source in Game 3 and I couldn't find another, even with Top, so I lost. 8 creature decks should never beat decks with so much removal, but that's what Wasteland does, so whatever.


This is exactly why I am a wasteland advocate in Thresh. It is just too good, too often with the amount of non-basics in the format, and the number of colors decks are running.

Tacosnape
09-04-2007, 02:24 PM
Isn't that kind of the conscious risk you take when playing a 4-colour deck with 24 lands, 7 of which are colourless and none of which are basic? I mean, whenever playing 4 colours, I don't think you can ever call a deck with even just 4 Wastelands an autowin even if they plan on killing with Eager Cadet.

This is a large part of why we run Stifle and a Land Recursion card, either Loam or Crucible.

Stifling a Wasteland is a huge move for this deck. It guards your land and makes them miss a land drop.

The increase of Wastelands in the format is a large part the fault of Tarmogoyf, who in addition to being too powerful to exist, has a colorless mana symbol in his cost somehow. Therefore the entire maindeck of U/G Threshold can be cast off a Tropical Island and any other land, so Wasteland becomes a very solid contender. This problem has in fact begun happening with other decks. I even pack two Wastelands in Survival nowadays due to how easy Tarmogoyf is to cast color-wise.

Not only that, but temporary mana denial becomes a much stronger strategy when you can 2-drop a Tarmogoyf that could eat Chicago.

Anarky said he felt like the 4 Stifles he ran weren't a terrific idea and I probably agree with him. There are matches when even 3 feels like far too many. But they're proving to be a necessary evil. I can also definitely see Teferi's Response making a further comeback if Wasteland continues to rise.

For those of you keeping track, my current list is as follows:

4 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Nantuko Monestary

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Fact or Fiction
3 Stifle
3 Diabolic Edict
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Life From The Loam

SB:
4 Meddling Mage
4 Engineered Plague
3 Spell Snare
2 Krosan Grip
2 Extirpate

I'm still tinkering around with possible Intuition/Loam engines as well, but for right now this is about as good as I can get it.

Blue Elemental Blast has lost some of its luster, though depending on my metagame I'll still run it, as I can potentially see Goblins, Burn, Belcher, and Rifter all on the same night, and I want BEB desperately against all four.

Snare has proven to be very very good against a lot of decks, however. Most notably it's a house against Loam decks, countering Burning Wish and Devastating Dreams and giving my Extirpates/Mages free reign to slaughter their card advantage engine. It proves to be very sneaky in matches where Stifle is weak.

I really want that third Extirpate back in the deck, too, so I'm going to start working on figuring out what to cut for it.

My third Monestary is back for the seventh Fetchland. I tend to go back and forth on this a lot.

And lastly, I finally cut Crime//Punishment, and it's sitting in a special place in my deck box in case Survival and Loam are in heavy presence (As Crime wins games against anything packing Genesis.) Engineered Explosives finally just proved to be the more versatile of the two, as it allowed pre-emptive drops, instant-speed blasts, and a slightly more reliable killing of ETW tokens in case I can't find Black-Green by turn two.

URABAHN
09-04-2007, 04:06 PM
I was very tempted to cut Stifle on the way to Indianapolis, but SpatulaoftheAges convinced me that I needed it as an answer for Wasteland. Gotta protect that manabase! Truth be told, I sided out Stifle quite a bit during Champs because I never played against Storm combo and only a few of my opponents had Wasteland.

Anarky87
09-04-2007, 06:28 PM
Truth be told, I sided out Stifle quite a bit during Champs because I never played against Storm combo and only a few of my opponents had Wasteland.

As did I, I believe it was most sided out card in the deck. I only played combo twice and that was in the Prelims and beat both of them with the aid of Stifle. And it also marginally helped against Goblins when I played it. Congrats on the finish, btw, and nice to meet you finally. :wink: