3CB #3 - Cait_Sith taking over!

[Cait_Sith]

Hi, I will be doing 3CB #3 and possibly more due to Giles being out.

First off, congratulations to our winner of round two, Pale Moon FTW!

Second, I would like to note I will not be participating. You cannot accuse me of cheating!

Third, the deadline for submissions is Friday, September 21st at 11:59 PM.

PM me and have fun!

[DarkAkuma]

Hi, I will be doing 3CB #3 and possibly more due to Giles being out.

First off, congratulations to our winner of round two, Pale Moon FTW!

Second, I would like to note I will not be participating. You cannot accuse me of cheating!

Third, the deadline for submissions is Friday, September 21st.

PM me and have fun!

Lets make sure this is clear right now. By Friday Septembr 21st, do you mean 12 am, or 11:59pm? And what time zone?

[Mordenkain]

One question: Sharazhad?

[Nihil Credo]

Well, no player would get libraries (unless you manage to put something in yours beforehand), so the options are:
1) The player who wins the subgame roll chooses to play first, and his opponent loses for being unable to draw a card.
2) The subgame never ends, so the entire game is a draw unless one player chooses to concede the subgame (for example, because he can still win from 10 life).
3) The subgame is a draw, and each player loses 10 life.

I'd drop #1, because it makes little sense to make the subgame follow "normal" rules of Magic, unlike the main 3CB game (what if Mana Clash is played in the subgame?). Options #2 and #3 seem the most reasonable.

[Mordenkain]

I was just wondering, since I considered playing Black Lotus + Suntail Hawk + Sharazhad just for giggles and laughs, but apperently there isn't any clear idea of what we should do when a player plays sharazhad?

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

It seems like 2 is most likely. Most decks can probably deal with a 10 turn clock.

[Cait_Sith]

Another option is we just ban it for rules confusion. If Wizards can do it, so can we!

[Mordenkain]

Another option is we just ban it for rules confusion. If Wizards can do it, so can we!
Hehe, I vote for that. Anarchy rules!

[Cait_Sith]

Hehe, I vote for that. Anarchy rules!

I hope you realize I meant that Scheherazade is banned on the grounds that is CAUSES rules confusion.

[Mordenkain]

I hope you realize I meant that Scheherazade is banned on the grounds that is CAUSES rules confusion.
I realize that, I just found the comment funny and tried to be funny as well. Oh well, intrawebz + sarcasm = no no.

[APriestOfGix]

i'm in, i sent you my new deck list

[shteev]

Hi, have you got rules and an up to date banned list for this somewhere?

[Barook]

I'm in this time after I failed to participate with my brand new tech in the last tournament.

[frolll]

Oh man I'm so totally in this time. Just plain ol' internet crashes make me miss the two others and those of TMD are down so here I come :) Please be prepared for the awesomness of the Magus.dec 'cause it'll wreck you all (or not :D)

But, where's the banned list ?

[Pale Moon FTW]

But, where's the banned list ?
--------------Current Banned List--------------

All Ante Cards
All Promo cards not available on Gatherer/Autocard
All Unglued ad Unhinged Cards (exluding basic lands)
Emergency Ban: Force of Will
Wasteland
Ghost Quarter
Strip Mine
Glacial Chasm

Blackmail
Brain Pry
Coercion
Pulse of the Dross
Cabal Therapy
Abandon Hope
Show and Tell
Misguided Rage
The Rack

Form of the Dragon
Balance
Restore Balance
Barren Glory

Mesmeric Fiend
Nezumi Shortfang
Voidstone Gargoyle
Meddling Mage
Leonin Squire


Aside from those Dryad Arbor, Unmask and Ensnaring Bridge are currently in the radar.

[Ridiculous Hat]

I'm nominating Trinisphere and Mishra's Workshop for the watch list. Trinisphere eliminates a lot of options (it's basically a Meddling Mage on the play except against other Workshop decks) and Workshop is what enables Bridge and Sphere to be so broken in the first place.

[Pinder]

I'm nominating Trinisphere and Mishra's Workshop for the watch list. Trinisphere eliminates a lot of options (it's basically a Meddling Mage on the play except against other Workshop decks) and Workshop is what enables Bridge and Sphere to be so broken in the first place.

Trinisphere maybe, but I don't think that Workshop is inherently broken. It all matters what you put into play with it. Trinisphere might be ridiculous, but no one cries over Steel Golem or Wheel of Torture or something. It only matters how you use it.

edit: And besides, it's not like banning Workshop would really stop Trinisphere anyway. Lotus/3sphere/Arbor would still win against most things on the play, even itself.

[Nihil Credo]

Not to mention Sphere of Resistance would often work just as well.

[Pale Moon FTW]

Actually Trinisphere isn't really powerful at all. It only works on the play, if you're on the draw it'll almost never do anything. Further it only works against Lotus based decks, most landbased decks using Workshop or storage lands can just ignore it. I wouldn't say it sucks but it is kind of weak and certainly not broken.

[Mordenkain]

Actually Trinisphere isn't really powerful at all. It only works on the play, if you're on the draw it'll almost never do anything. Further it only works against Lotus based decks, most landbased decks using Workshop or storage lands can just ignore it. I wouldn't say it sucks but it is kind of weak and certainly not broken.

Totally true. Trinisphere isn't anywhere near broken. I know, I played the trini stax deck last time and I didn't do that good.

Ensnsaring Bridge on the other hand, is quite imba. But I suppse the meta just have to adept to it, or maybe we should just ban it, i dunno.

[Ridiculous Hat]

Actually Trinisphere isn't really powerful at all. It only works on the play, if you're on the draw it'll almost never do anything. Further it only works against Lotus based decks, most landbased decks using Workshop or storage lands can just ignore it. I wouldn't say it sucks but it is kind of weak and certainly not broken.I don't think storage land decks can reliably compete while Workshop and Lotus are still running around.

[APriestOfGix]

I think Ensnaring Bride should be banned. It's very similar to Form of the Dragon, in this is stops the #1 used strategy (of using creatures) in a card type thats very hard to remove.

Trinisphere is not broken at all. It stops 33% of decks (Lotus decks) and only on the play. basically it auto wins 16% of the time, and i really don't think that is broken.

Workshop is fair.

Card that need to be watched.

Unmask - It's free discard, up there with Cabal Therapy, and Brain Pry/Blackmail.

Ensnaring Bridge - It's too hard to remove, and it stops any creature deck from winning.

Dryad - It breaks the fundmental rule of picking a mana source or a finisher. It is no where NEAR ban worthy yet, but it should be watched.


Edit:



Aside from those Dryad Arbor, Unmask and Ensnaring Bridge are currently in the radar.

Guess i'm not the only one who thinks this...

[Ridiculous Hat]

Trinisphere stops any deck that cannot reliably produce 3 mana. It stops basic land decks, it stops lands like Saprazzan Skerry, it stops any other land that comes into play tapped, and it stops any deck that doesn't have a Workshop or storage land if it's on the play.

Its effect is very similar to Meddling Mage, only Trinisphere is easier to cast. Mage is banned-- why isn't Trinisphere?

I understand that there are ways around it, such as with storage lands. But people seem to be disputing the fact that there's a problem, when there are many decks out there that are completely unplayable because the first land comes into play tapped. I'm not saying that the card should be banned immediately, but I think watching it is appropriate. If I want to cast two one-mana spells, I have to use a storage land right now unless I want to use one of those spells to pre-emptively deal with Trinisphere. That seems a little silly.

[Tacosnape]

I don't really think Dryad Arbor is all that strong, and I don't even think Arbor Mask is all that amazing of a deck. All you have to do to beat the deck is play two threats of some sort instead of one. I mean, hell, a green charge land and two Grizzly Bears will beat it.

Also, if you ban Arbor, you should probably unban Force, and if you ban Unmask, you don't need to ban Arbor too.

I think Bridge should be banned, though. It very much undermines the game.

Pox is an incredibly strong card that might be worth watching, but I think it's probably okay due to the restrictive nature of the deck (You don't have a lot of options beyond Lotus/Nether Spirit, really.)

[APriestOfGix]

I don't really think Dryad Arbor is all that strong, and I don't even think Arbor Mask is all that amazing of a deck. All you have to do to beat the deck is play two threats of some sort instead of one. I mean, hell, a green charge land and two Grizzly Bears will beat it.

Also, if you ban Arbor, you should probably unban Force, and if you ban Unmask, you don't need to ban Arbor too.

I think Bridge should be banned, though. It very much undermines the game.

Pox is an incredibly strong card that might be worth watching, but I think it's probably okay due to the restrictive nature of the deck (You don't have a lot of options beyond Lotus/Nether Spirit, really.)

Pox is the worst deck ever. you NEVER get more than 2 points with it, since it CAN'T WIN!

if they run a 3/3 or greater it will ALWAYS be a draw or a loss.

[Cait_Sith]

As a note:

I keep getting people asking if they can change their deck. You may change your deck at will until 11:59 EST on Friday, at which point Registration will be closed.

Also, we are at 16 decks! I am hoping to see at least twenty.

Finally, unless someone objects I will just keep hosting this for the foreseeable future. In this case I will examine the results of this and the other two rounds to determine if there should be bannings. Until then I will put these on the watch list:

Unmask
Ensnaring Bridge

Edit: I am also banning Sharazad RIGHT NOW to avoid future rules confusion.

Current list:

--------------Current Banned List--------------

All Ante Cards
All Promo cards not available on Gatherer/Autocard
All Unglued and Unhinged Cards (excluding basic lands)

Creatures:
Mesmeric Fiend
Nezumi Shortfang
Voidstone Gargoyle
Meddling Mage
Leonin Squire

Lands:
Wasteland
Ghost Quarter
Strip Mine
Glacial Chasm

Artifacts:
The Rack

Enchantments:
Form of the Dragon
Barren Glory

Instants:
Force of Will

Sorceries:
Abandon Hope
Balance
Blackmail
Brain Pry
Cabal Therapy
Coercion
Misguided Rage
Pulse of the Dross
Restore Balance
Show and Tell

--------------Current Watch List--------------

Ensnaring Bridge - Watch to be added
Unmask - Watch to be added

[Illissius]

There is no way that Ensaring Bridge is overpowered. It was legal at TMD and was never a problem -- it's just another strong deck among many. It doesn't really hate on creatures any more than Maze, Tabernacle (which can't be Duressed or Dazed or anything) or Energy Field do.

Meddling Mage was also unbanned and never caused problems. It's two colors, meaning both of your other two cards have to be mana sources, so overall it's not so amazing at all. Comparing them, it makes zero sense for Unmask-Arbor to be legal and Mage banned.

Trinisphere and Poxen were banned, but those might've been sort of borderline.

The thing about 3CB is that every deck has a foil, and you will always have some semblance of a metagame no matter what you do, so arguing on this basis is pretty pointless. Where to draw the line on power level is a rather subjective decision.

[Ridiculous Hat]

Meddling Mage goes in a fairly standard WL deck that happens to beat most decks with CIPT lands. It's a different Trinisphere that's harder to cast and I agree that it should probably be unbanned.

Also, I think Arbor is pretty mediocre. Any deck with two relevant cards or one relevant land beats it.

[APriestOfGix]

It was legal at TMD and was never a problem

Is this the mana drain? NO!

It's like saying well Metalworker isn't broken in Type 1, we should allow 4 in Legacy. Different formats, just like Source and TMD are different meta games.

You can't bring things in from other places as reasons to ban/unban cards. Well in my PERSONAL 3cb everyone black Lotus decks, and nobody knows about Workshop, so we had to ban Trinisphere, well that means it's broken and we have to ban it here on the source... NO!

I agree Bridge isn't Unstoppable, but if it makes the game less fun for Sourcers, then it needs to be banned.

3spher in T1 wasn't BROKEN, but i was un-fun, so it got the ax.

[Ridiculous Hat]

Is this the mana drain? NO!

It's like saying well Metalworker isn't broken in Type 1, we should allow 4 in Legacy. Different formats, just like Source and TMD are different meta games.

You can't bring things in from other places as reasons to ban/unban cards. Well in my PERSONAL 3cb everyone black Lotus decks, and nobody knows about Workshop, so we had to ban Trinisphere, well that means it's broken and we have to ban it here on the source... NO!

I agree Bridge isn't Unstoppable, but if it makes the game less fun for Sourcers, then it needs to be banned.

3spher in T1 wasn't BROKEN, but i was un-fun, so it got the ax.Um, if you have a different metagame in two places with the same sets of cards allowed, at least one of those metagames is building suboptimal decks. It's not about "fun", it's about cards that really restrict people's options.

TMD may be a different site, but if they banned cards, there's probably some sort of reason behind it. I seriously doubt they were just like "we don't like this card blah blah blah banned."

[Cait_Sith]

Um, if you have a different metagame in two places with the same sets of cards allowed, at least one of those metagames is building suboptimal decks.

This logic is entirely fallacious. The European metagame and the American metagame look almost nothing alike, yet both sides will run well developed top notch decks. Different metagames are composed of different thinkers and different stylists who build and run totally different decks.

[Ridiculous Hat]

This logic is entirely fallacious. The European metagame and the American metagame look almost nothing alike, yet both sides will run well developed top notch decks. Different metagames are composed of different thinkers and different stylists who build and run totally different decks.3cb is different from regular magic-- playskill is not a part of the equation, there's no way to answer overpowered threats without basing your deck around them, and some of the cards not on the banned list are much more powerful than anything else available.

I'm not going to get into this argument in regards to real magic, but when it comes to thought exercises like 3cb, there are usually a small amount of overpowering strategies and the metagame becomes cyclic.

[Lego]

Is Ensnaring Bridge seriously any different than Maze of Ith? Doesn't seem very broken.

[Pinder]

Is Ensnaring Bridge seriously any different than Maze of Ith?

Yeah, it can be countered.

Although, it should be noted that Bridge stops any and all attackers, whereas Maze only stops 1, so I suppose it is objectively more powerful. Not sure that makes it banworthy though. Besides, there are decks that win without creatures, like Scepter-Helix, and, um......Scepter-Bolt?

[Ridiculous Hat]

Yeah, it can be countered.

Although, it should be noted that Bridge stops any and all attackers, whereas Maze only stops 1, so I suppose it is objectively more powerful. Not sure that makes it banworthy though. Besides, there are decks that win without creatures, like Scepter-Helix, and, um......Scepter-Bolt?Scalding Tongs.

Also, Bridge can be discarded or countered.

[Lego]

Also, Bridge can be discarded or countered.

With Force banned, Bridge is basically just worse against Unmask. Except that it hits decks with two creature threats (which are few and far between anyway) that Maze of Ith might lose to. Still doesn't seem broken. Did anyone even play it? Did I miss something?

[Ridiculous Hat]

With Force banned, Bridge is basically just worse against Unmask. Except that it hits decks with two creature threats (which are few and far between anyway) that Maze of Ith might lose to. Still doesn't seem broken. Did anyone even play it? Did I miss something?It was played in one deck, but that deck did win the last round.

I agree with you, for what it's worth.

[APriestOfGix]

TMD may be a different site, but if they banned cards, there's probably some sort of reason behind it. I seriously doubt they were just like "we don't like this card blah blah blah banned."

Well Wizards seems to ban cards for that reason ALL the time...

[Ridiculous Hat]

Well Wizards seems to ban cards for that reason ALL the time...I unfortunately can't speak for wotc. Usually Buehler or Forsythe go into that pretty well, but I'd be lying if I said that I agreed with all of their decisions.

[Barook]

With Force banned, Bridge is basically just worse against Unmask. Except that it hits decks with two creature threats (which are few and far between anyway) that Maze of Ith might lose to. Still doesn't seem broken. Did anyone even play it? Did I miss something?
Creatures with Shroud like Kodama of the North Tree don't care about Maze of Ith. Maze could also be Needled, although nobody plays Pithing Needle anyway.

I think that Bridge should be banned because it's a way too strong hoser.

Unmask/Dryad Arbor banning is debateable, but it can be beaten and it's one of the few decks that are able to keep Glowrider/Magus of the Moon/Black Lotus decks in check.

Trinisphere, however, is a fair card. Nothing to complain here.

[Cait_Sith]

Is Ensnaring Bridge seriously any different than Maze of Ith? Doesn't seem very broken.

I won't lie, I do not see it getting banned, but just in case it is on the list. Unmask is the one that strikes me as odd. It is stronger than Abandon Hope, Brain Pry, or even Cabal Therapy (in most cases), yet it is the one still legal.

[APriestOfGix]

I won't lie, I do not see it getting banned, but just in case it is on the list. Unmask is the one that strikes me as odd. It is stronger than Abandon Hope, Brain Pry, or even Cabal Therapy (in most cases), yet it is the one still legal.

Thats what buggs me. Cabal is better cause it can break the 1 discard a turn rule, but It's WAY better than Brain Pry, or Abandon Hope, or even Blackmail.

[Illissius]

It's stronger than Coercion for sure, and probably Brain Pry (is there any good threat you can play for :b:?), but not necessarily the others. Lotus - Abandon Hope - Nether Spirit and Bayou - Blackmail - Thallid are formidable; I'm not saying they're better than Unmask - Shoal - Arbor, but they're not clearly worse. Anyways, I would support banning Unmask as I've mentioned (or Arbor and unbanning Force).

[Cait_Sith]

We are over twenty now, but remember, you have until just shy of midnight!

[Cait_Sith]

Just so people see this: Please do not e-mail the lists to me. My e-mail filter is VERY overactive and I had to spend several minutes coming to try to make sure I didn't miss any.

[Cait_Sith]

The deadline for 3CB has passed! It is now the 22nd of September, so here are the deck lists:

Three Card Blind Decklist:

1. Tacosnape - Double Trouble

Mishra's Workshop
Chimeric Idol
Wheel of Torture

2. Eladriel - Tempting Twister

Rushwood Grove
Tempting Wurm
Desert Twister

3. Pinder - Power Doll

Worn Powerstone
Mishra's Workshop
Stuffy Doll

4. marit - Big Beastie

Durkwood Baloth
Tropical Island
Daze

5. Ridiculous Hat - t is for tools

Mishra's Workshop
Epochrasite
Powder Keg

6. WiLdFiRe - Unnamed

Calciform Pools
Karakas
Mangara of Corondor

7. SpatulaOfTheAges - LoxNBagles

Black Lotus
Glowrider
Magus of the Moon

8. technogeek5000 - Exploting the new banned list

Black Lotus
Null Chamber
Knight of the Holy Nimbus

9. dragon_demon1 - Chalice of the Moon

Chalice of the Void
Black Lotus
Magus of the Moon

10. honz - ~Hot Potato~

Mishra's Workshop
Sphere of Resistance
Scalding Tongs

11. xsockmonkeyx - Chalice of the Moon

Black Lotus
Chalice of the Void
Magus of the Moon

12. Whit3 Ghost - Bluff Tower

Mercadian Bazaar
Words of War
Ensnaring Bridge

13. Barook - IMMA CHARGIN MA ANGEL

Subterranean Hangar
Fountain of Cho
Angel of Despair

14. frolll - "The Infamous Red Moon That Is A Bad Omen"

City of Traitors
Mox Ruby
Magus of the Moon

15. Mordenkain - Scales.dec
Mishra's Workshop
Culling Scales
Dryad Arbor

16. emidln - "Down on the Swamp by Godder"

Thallid
Duress
Bayou

17. Illissius - Good Deck

Black Lotus
Preacher
Magus of the Moon

18. georgjorge - Green Control

Rushwood Cove
Tempting Wurm
Creeping Mold

19. Belgareth - The Sheltered Factory

Sheltered Valley
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Mishra's Factory

20. Lego_Army_Man - Lotus/Magus/Preacher

Black Lotus
Magus of the Moon
Preacher

21. Nihil - This Cocaine Makes Me Feel Like I'm On This Deck

Rushwood Grove
Black Lotus
Quagnoth

22. Pale Moon FTW - Kodama Beatz

Black Lotus
Black Lotus
Kodama of the North Tree

23. Chosen by crystals - Wonder Why?

Black Lotus
Magus of the Moon
Glowrider

24. T is for TOOL - Can't Touch This

Saprazaan Cove
Energy Field
Darksteel Reactor

25. wmagzoo7 - Unnamed

City of Traitors
Isochron Scepter
Lightning Helix

Everyone please calculate your scores. If there is a discrepancy then please contact me for an official ruling.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

My results. Chosen By Crystals will have the same record.

Edited for me being stupid. I'm still not entirely sure about this, but anyway.

1. Tacosnape - Mishra's Workshop, Chimeric Idol, Wheel of Torture - WL - 3
2. Eladriel - Rushwood Grove, Tempting Wurm, Desert Twister - WW - 9
3. Pinder - Worn Powerstone, Mishra's Workshop, Stuffy Doll - WW - 15
4. marit - Durkwood Baloth, Tropical Island, Daze - WL - 18
5. Ridiculous Hat - Mishra's Workshop, Epochrasite, Powder Keg - WL - 21
6. WiLdFiRe - Calciform Pools, Karakas, Mangara of Corondor - WW - 27
7. SpatulaOfTheAges - LoxNBagles - Delicious - 27
8. technogeek5000 - Black Lotus, Null Chamber, Knight of the Holy Nimbus - WL - 30
9. dragon_demon1 - Chalice of the Void, Black Lotus, Magus of the Moon - WL - 33
10. honz - Mishra's Workshop, Sphere of Resistance, Scalding Tongs - WL - 36
11. xsockmonkeyx - Black Lotus, Chalice of the Void, Magus of the Moon - 39
12. Whit3 Ghost - Mercadian Bazaar, Words of War, Ensnaring Bridge - WW - 45
13. Barook - Subterranean Hangar, Fountain of Cho, Angel of Despair - WW - 51
14. frolll - City of Traitors, Mox Ruby, Magus of the Moon - WD - 55
*15. Mordenkain - Mishra's Workshop, Culling Scales, Dryad Arbor - WW - 61
16. emidln - Thallid, Duress, Bayou - WL - 64
17. Illissius - Black Lotus, Preacher, Magus of the Moon - WL - 67
18. georgjorge - Rushwood Cove, Tempting Wurm, Creeping Mold - WW - 73
19. Belgareth - Sheltered Valley, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Mishra's Factory - WW - 79
20. Lego_Army_Man - Black Lotus, Magus of the Moon, Preacher - WL - 82
21. Nihil - Rushwood Grove, Black Lotus, Quagnoth - WW - 88
22. Pale Moon FTW - Black Lotus, Black Lotus, Kodama of the North Tree - WL - 91
23. Chosen by crystals - Black Lotus, Magus of the Moon, Glowrider - WL -94
24. T is for TOOL - Saprazaan Cove, Energy Field, Darksteel Reactor - WW - 100
25. wmagzoo7 - City of Traitors, Isochron Scepter, Lightning Helix - WW - 106

*Culling Scales
Dryad Arbor
Mishra's Workshop

On the play I go Lotus -> Magus.
On the draw he can go Arbor, where I repeat the above play, or Workshop -> Scales. I pass without playing anything, Scales kills itself. He
plays Arbor. I go Lotus -> Magus for the win.

[Mordenkain]

How about adding the results to the 3cb wiki?

Oh and btw, I HATE Magus of the Moon. Retarded card.

[Cait_Sith]

I'll add everything to the Wiki after we have a winner.

[WiLdFiRe]

I pm'ed you a new list - my new one was U/W Storageland, Karakas and Mangara of Corondor but I'm not sure that it's any better :P
EDIT: That is, I pmed it way before the cutoff

[Cait_Sith]

You are right, I must have clicked it and gotten distracted. Let me edit that then fix the results.

Edit: Since the only person to put up their results yet is playing Magus of the Moon, the results will stay the same.

[Illissius]

17.
good deck
Black Lotus
Preacher
Magus of the Moon

01. 3-3
02. 6-0
03. 6-0
04. 3-3
05. 3-3
06. 6-0
07. 3-3
08. 6-0
09. 3-3
10. 3-3
11. 3-3
12. 6-0
13. 6-0
14. 6-0
15. 6-0
16. 3-3
17. N/A
18. 6-0
19. 6-0
20. 3-3
21. 6-0
22. 0-6
23. 3-3
24. 6-0
25. 6-0

Total: 108

What the hell is up with the all the Magus-Chalice/Glowrider decks? Were people terrified to death of Lotus-Lotus-Kodama? (I would've rather expected City-Lotus-Kodama, anyways, which gets around things like Tabernacle and Glowrider, but whatever). This led me to think I should've maybe played Unmask-Shoal-Arbor instead, which I was considering, as it beats up on Lotus-Magus-X decks; according to my calculations (subbing it in at #17) it would've gotten 101 points.

I think the watch list, at this point, should be:

Dryad Arbor
Magus of the Moon
Unmask

Lotus-Lotus-Preacher-Blood Moon was a tournament winning deck in 4CB, so it might be a tad strong for 3.

EDIT -- Updated to account for #6 changing from Karakas-Isamaru-Isamaru to Karakas-Pools-Mangara; Lotus-Magus-Preacher goes 6-0 rather than 4-1 against this (going second against Isamaru.dec, they'd get caught in a perpetual game of play Isamaru, steal Isamaru, bounce Isamaru, play Isamaru, as far as I can tell; Magus doesn't work going second because they just outrace you or trade and play the second), and Arbor.dec goes 6-0 rather than 0-6. Incidentally, the Lotus-Magus-not Preacher decks go 6-0 rather than 3-3 here, so the results do change.

[Cait_Sith]

Neither Arbor nor Unmask even showed up at this tournament, as didn't Ensnaring Bridge. Right now I think that you could justify Magus of the Moon, but that is about it.

[georgjorge]

Rushwood Grove
Tempting Wurm
Creeping Mold

1. 01
2. 11
3. 00
4. 11
5. 11
6. 00
7. 00
8. 33 (how are you ever going to cast that chamber...?)
9. 00
10. 33
11. 00
12. 33
13. 03
14. 00
15. 11
16. 33
17. 00
19. 33
20. 00
21. 33
22. 11
23. 00
24. 33
25. 33

...and a measly 62 points. On the whole, my deck getting wrecked by every deck playing Magus was bad, and being slow as hell didn't help either. But at least it's cool that Eldariel had nearly the same idea...

[Illissius]

Neither Arbor nor Unmask even showed up at this tournament, as didn't Ensnaring Bridge. Right now I think that you could justify Magus of the Moon, but that is about it.

There is always going to be a metagame. Just because a deck can be hated out doesn't necessarily mean it isn't too good, though you can (and do) use that logic if you like. As I said, acceptable power level in 3CB is almost entirely subjective -- you can choose to ban some cards, and you will have one metagame, or you can choose to not ban them, and have another; the only question is which one you would rather have. I don't think most of the "ethical" considerations regarding the banned list in DCI formats should necessarily enter into it here.

At this point, it seems pretty clear that we're following a much more liberal banning policy than the one which formed the banned list we're actually using, so if we're going to continue down this road, we should at least unban the cards on the list which are less powerful than the ones we've kept legal, just for the sake of constistency.

[Cait_Sith]

To that I say this: If the card is so broken, why aren't people playing it?

[WiLdFiRe]

Ugh, that was terrible.
1. LL - 0
2. WW - 6
3. WW - 12
4. WW - 18
5. WW - 24
6. LL - 24
7.
8. WW - 30
9. LL - 30
10. WW - 36
11. LL - 36
12. WW - 40
13. DD - 42
14. LL - 42
15. LL - 42
16. WW - 48
17. LL - 48
18. DD - 50 not sure on this one, anyone care to confirm?
19. WW - 56
20. LL - 56
21. LL - 56
22. LL - 56
23. LL - 56
24. WW - 62
25. LL - 62

[Cait_Sith]

I'll take a look.

Edit: It will be WW for WiLdFiRe

[Illissius]

To that I say this: If the card is so broken, why aren't people playing it?

Because it can be metagamed against / hated out (in 3CB, the difference is mainly semantic), which is what happened last round. Hence, people shied away from playing it this time.

[Cait_Sith]

Which would indicate that it does not need to be banned. Rash decisions are just as bad as no decision at all.

[Illissius]

Are you reading what I'm saying? It's very rare that a card needs to be banned. This is the entire point. We seem to be proceeding with a banning policy entirely different from 3CBs prior, and the one under which the banned list we originally adopted had evolved. This doesn't bother you? Is your position that nothing is going to be banned unless it's so good than you couldn't beat it if you tried? That's the only situation where you wouldn't have a metagame, and where you wouldn't have rounds when a deck doesn't show up because it was hated out in the previous one. If it is, we might as well unban Lotus-Rack-Balance, Force-Force-Arbor, and all the rest, and still have a nice metagame for ourselves.

[Nihil Credo]

People aren't playing Tier 1 decks en masse* because it would be zero fun, and we're all playing 3CB just for fun. Unlike in normal MtG, where you still get to play games and put your skills to the test even with a netdecked list, all the fun in 3CB is to a) make metagame calls and b) create new decks. If you just pick last round's winning list every time, you might as well not play altogether. The only reason you'd do that would be if there were some prize.

How that reflects on the criteria we should use for the banned list, though, I wouldn't know. I have a sneaking suspicion we might as well just unban everything and people still wouldn't play Lotus-Rack-Balance, either out of boredom or because they didn't want to look like jerks.

*which, incidentally, leads my amazing hate decks to perform like shit.

[georgjorge]

At any rate, I strongly suggest the banning of the Magus. I can imagine very very few decks that can beat Lotus - Magus - Chalice on the draw (essentially, those with basic lands or Contagion/Shoal), and I can think of many decks that will lose to it even on the play, making it too powerful in my opinion. That is because you essentially have two options for casting your spells...

1. You play cheap spells. But since you only have three cards, you almost always want your land to do something besides producing mana (Mishra's Factory, Treetop Village, Sheltered Valley, Karakas etc). Your land gets hosed by Magus on the draw.

2. You want more expensive spells. Your only realistic options are Lotus, storage lands, and Workshop. Two of those get completely hosed on the draw, and one even on the play.

So unless we want to see storage lands, and thus the options for casting more expensive spells, disappear from the format, or people playing Plains, Isamaru, Savannah Lions just to beat Magus, I support a ban.

[Mordenkain]

At any rate, I strongly suggest the banning of the Magus. I can imagine very very few decks that can beat Lotus - Magus - Chalice on the draw (essentially, those with basic lands or Contagion/Shoal), and I can think of many decks that will lose to it even on the play, making it too powerful in my opinion. That is because you essentially have two options for casting your spells...

1. You play cheap spells. But since you only have three cards, you almost always want your land to do something besides producing mana (Mishra's Factory, Treetop Village, Sheltered Valley, Karakas etc). Your land gets hosed by Magus on the draw.

2. You want more expensive spells. Your only realistic options are Lotus, storage lands, and Workshop. Two of those get completely hosed on the draw, and one even on the play.

So unless we want to see storage lands, and thus the options for casting more expensive spells, disappear from the format, or people playing Plains, Isamaru, Savannah Lions just to beat Magus, I support a ban.

This man speaks the truth. I support the banning as well, since it invalidates everything using non-basic lands and lotus is cut off as well becuase of chalice. Chalice - Magus of the Moon - Lotus is a stupid deck.

[T is for TOOL]

1. Tacosnape - WW - 6
2. Eladriel - LL - 0
3. Pinder - WW - 12
4. marit - WW - 18
5. Ridiculous Hat - WW - 24
6. WiLdFiRe - LL - 24
7. SpatulaOfTheAges - LL - 24
8. technogeek5000 - WW - 30
9. dragon_demon1 - LL - 30
10. honz - WW - 36
11. xsockmonkeyx - LL - 36
12. Whit3 Ghost - WW - 42
13. Barook - LL - 42
14. frolll - LL - 42
15. Mordenkain - LL - 42
16. emidln - LL - 42
17. Illissius - LL - 42
18. georgjorge - LL - 42
19. Belgareth - WW - 48
20. Lego_Army_Man - LL - 48
21. Nihil - WW - 54
22. Pale Moon FTW - WW - 60
23. Chosen by crystals - LL - 60
24. T is for TOOL - XX - 60
25. wmagzoo7 - WW - 66

Total: 66 points

[APriestOfGix]

1. Tacosnape - Double Trouble
P - 3
D - 0
T - 3

2. Eladriel - Tempting Twister
P - 3
D - 3
T - 6

3. Pinder - Power Doll
P - 3
D - 3
T - 6

4. marit - Big Beastie
P - 3
D - 0
T - 3

5. Ridiculous Hat - t is for tools
P - 3
D - 1
T - 4

6. WiLdFiRe - Unnamed
P - 3
D - 6
T - 6

7. SpatulaOfTheAges - LoxNBagles
P - 3
D - 0
T - 3

8. technogeek5000 - Exploting the new banned list
P - 3
D - 0
T - 3

10. honz - ~Hot Potato~
P - 3
D - 0
T - 3

11. xsockmonkeyx - Chalice of the Moon
P - 3
D - 0
T - 3

12. Whit3 Ghost - Bluff Tower
P - 3
D - 3
T - 6

13. Barook - IMMA CHARGIN MA ANGEL
P - 3
D - 3
T - 6

14. frolll - "The Infamous Red Moon That Is A Bad Omen"
P - 3
D - 1
T - 4

15. Mordenkain - Scales.dec
P - 3
D - 1
T - 4

16. emidln - "Down on the Swamp by Godder"
P - 3
D - 0
T - 3

17. Illissius - Good Deck
P - 3
D - 0
T - 3

18. georgjorge - Green Control
P - 3
D - 3
T - 6

19. Belgareth - The Sheltered Factory
P - 3
D - 3
T - 6

20. Lego_Army_Man - Lotus/Magus/Preacher
P - 3
D - 0
T - 3

21. Nihil - This Cocaine Makes Me Feel Like I'm On This Deck
P - 3
D - 3
T - 6

22. Pale Moon FTW - Kodama Beatz
P - 3
D - 0
T - 3

23. Chosen by crystals - Wonder Why?
P - 3
D - 0
T - 3

24. T is for TOOL - Can't Touch This
P - 3
D - 3
T - 6

25. wmagzoo7 - Unnamed
P - 3
D - 3
T - 6



Total: 95?

[xsockmonkeyx]

Chalice of the Moon

Black Lotus
Chalice of the Void
Magus of the Moon

1. Tacosnape - WL - 3
2. Eladriel - WW - 9
3. Pinder - WW - 15
4. marit - WL - 18
5. Ridiculous Hat - WL - 21
6. WiLdFiRe - WW - 27
7.Spatula - WL - 33
8. technogeek5000 - WL - 31
9. dragon_demon1 - WL - 34
10. honz - WL - 37
11. Whit3 Ghost - WW - 43
12. Barook - WW - 49
13. frolll - WD - 53
14. Mordenkain - WW - 59
15. emidln - WL - 62
17. Illissius - WL - 65
18. georgjorge - WL - 68
19. Belgareth - WW - 74
20. Lego_Army_Man - WL - 77
21. Nihil - WW - 83
22. Pale Moon FTW - WL - 86
23. Chosen by crystals - WL - 89
24. T is for TOOL - WL - 92
25. wmagzoo7 - WL - 95

95 points total

[Cait_Sith]

Okay, dragon and sockmonkey ran the same deck, so they should have the same results. 95 points seems good.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

I updated with 106 points, but I think the people running Preacher over Glowrider failed to realize that they beat Workshop + Arbor + Culling Scales. See my post for the play by play.

Broken Combo + Preacher should have 108, Broken Combo + Glowrider should have 106.

Glowrider wins the match on the play vs Kodoma, Preacher wins the match on the draw vs Knight of the Holy Nimbus, and Preacher beats City of Traitors + Mox + Magus on the draw, whereas Glowrider only draws with it.



And Magus absolutely NEEDS to be banned. The format won't be fun if there's one overwhelmingly obvious solution.

[technogeek5000]

Lol i thought that null chamber was 1 mana. Im not even gonna bother doing my results

[Cait_Sith]

After seeing this tournament, I am going to do these updates:

--------------Current Banned List--------------

All Ante Cards
All Promo cards not available on Gatherer/Autocard
All Unglued and Unhinged Cards (excluding basic lands)

Creatures:
Mesmeric Fiend
Nezumi Shortfang
Voidstone Gargoyle
Meddling Mage
Leonin Squire
BANNED - Magus of the Moon

Reason- Hello, it dominates. This format relies on cards capable of producing tremendous amounts of mana is one small swoop (or free spells) and can only effectively get it from either Black Lotus, or lands that produce more than 1 mana. Since Magus of Moon is both a wincon and able to hose all of these cards (effectively winning half its MUs on the play, no matter what), it is clear that it must be banned.

Lands:
Wasteland
Ghost Quarter
Strip Mine
Glacial Chasm

Artifacts:
The Rack

Enchantments:
Form of the Dragon
Barren Glory

Instants:
Force of Will

Sorceries:
Abandon Hope
Balance
Blackmail
Brain Pry
Cabal Therapy
Coercion
Misguided Rage
Pulse of the Dross
Restore Balance
Show and Tell

Right now I do not see removing anything else, simply because the ability to hit any non-land card in a person's hand is too strong when placed alongside Dryad Arbor. Even if I were to ban Arbor, Abandon Hope, Blackmail, Brain Pry and Cabal Therapy would still have to stay on due to their ability to play another wincon plus themselves would be extremely disruptive.

By this logic Unmask should be added to the list, but I since recent rounds have not shown a persistence of decks running this card to overpowering wins, it is probably best to leave it be for the moment.

[Pinder]

Huh. Seems the Workshop/Trini metagame I was expecting didn't really pan out. Oh well. I'm far too lazy to calculate my results, because I know I can't win, anyone want to do it for me?

[Ridiculous Hat]

Ridiculous Hat - Mishra's Workshop, Epochrasite, Powder Keg

Tacosnape - Mishra's Workshop, Chimeric Idol, Wheel of Torture - DD - 2
(there is no way for him to race me but no way for me to race back-- i'm at a low life total from both of his artifacts hitting me and i only need to blow up the wheel of torture)
Eladriel - Rushwood Grove, Tempting Wurm, Desert Twister - LL - 2
(he builds up 8 counters on his storage land. no matter what, he can twist away my powder keg before it hits two counters and then i'll lose to the 5/5.)
Pinder - Worn Powerstone, Mishra's Workshop, Stuffy Doll - LL - 2
marit - Durkwood Baloth, Tropical Island, Daze - DL - 3
WiLdFiRe - Calciform Pools, Karakas, Mangara of Corondor - DD - 5
SpatulaOfTheAges - Black Lotus, Glowrider, Magus of the Moon - WL - 8
technogeek5000 - Black Lotus, Null Chamber, Knight of the Holy Nimbus - DD - 10
dragon_demon1 - Chalice of the Void, Black Lotus, Magus of the Moon - WL - 13
honz - Mishra's Workshop, Sphere of Resistance, Scalding Tongs - WW - 19
xsockmonkeyx - Black Lotus, Chalice of the Void, Magus of the Moon - WL - 22
Whit3 Ghost - Mercadian Bazaar, Words of War, Ensnaring Bridge - WW - 28
Barook - Subterranean Hangar, Fountain of Cho, Angel of Despair - WW - 34
frolll - City of Traitors, Mox Ruby, Magus of the Moon - WL - 37
Mordenkain - Mishra's Workshop, Culling Scales, Dryad Arbor - WW - 43
emidln - Thallid, Duress, Bayou - WL - 46
Illissius - Black Lotus, Preacher, Magus of the Moon - WL - 49
georgjorge - Rushwood Grove, Tempting Wurm, Creeping Mold - LL - 49
Belgareth - Sheltered Valley, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Mishra's Factory - LL - 49
Lego_Army_Man - Black Lotus, Magus of the Moon, Preacher - WL - 52
Nihil - Rushwood Grove, Black Lotus, Quagnoth - WW - 58
Pale Moon FTW - Black Lotus, Black Lotus, Kodama of the North Tree - LL - 58
Chosen by crystals - Black Lotus, Magus of the Moon, Glowrider - WL - 61
T is for TOOL - Saprazaan Cove, Energy Field, Darksteel Reactor - LL - 61
wmagzoo7 - City of Traitors, Isochron Scepter, Lightning Helix - WW - 67

[Illissius]

I updated with 106 points, but I think the people running Preacher over Glowrider failed to realize that they beat Workshop + Arbor + Culling Scales.

Right you are. My brain, in the midst of a loud fart, forgot that Magus turns off Workshop even if Workshop was played first. Updated.

[Eldariel]

Tacosnape: WD 4 (he's too fast on the draw so I have to Twist his Wheel and sit back, on the play I win at 1 life)
Pinder: LL (can't destroy doll, it'll eventually kill me)
marit: WD (he can't race my Twister on the play, on the draw, I can only block his Wurm with mine) 8
Ridiculous Hat: WW (he can't race my Twister) 14
Wildfire: LL (I can't race his Mangara)
Spatula: LL (Magus - GG)
techno: WW (Knight isn't much of a clock) 20
dragon: LL (Magus - GG)
honz: WW (Twist the Tong Or Just Play A Wurm) 26
sockmonkey: LL (Magus - GG)
Whit3 Ghost: WW (8 counters - GG) 32
Barook: LL (Wurm lets him play the angel and I can't Twist fast enough to race his double charge)
frolll: LL (Magus - GG)
Mordenkain: WW (Wurm > small damage) 38
emidln: WW (Wurm > Thallid) 44
Illisius: LL (Magus - GG)
georgjorge: DD (Wurms stare each other down, while he Molds my land before I can Twist his Wurm...gah, shoulda played Hunted Wumpus instead for WL) 46
Belgareth: WW (Twist Factory, build up enough mana to upkeep Wurm FTW...Wurm deals enough damage to more than offset the Valley) 52
Lego_Army_Man: LL (Magus - GG)
Nihil: WW (Wurm>Quagnoth) 58
Pale Moon FTW: DD (Wurm and Kodama trade) 60
Chosen by crystals: LL (Magus - GG)
T is for T00L: WW (Twister>Field, Wurm>Reactor) 66
wmagzoo7: WL (Twister>Scepter on the play, draw too slow) 69

Overall, I was expecting a metagame that hates on Magus (and a metagame full of Ensnaring Bridge due to all the whine) rather than a Magus-metagame. Horrible metagame call, but the deck would've wrecked the metagame it was planned on. On that note, Bolt/Furnace Dragon would've wrecked this meta. Oh well. I agree that Magus needs to be banned, it's sorta disruptive when the only playable answer is really Bolt which sucks against everything else, or Lotus which loses against the other half of Magus-decks. Woulda played the red deck if it weren't for it being so glacially slow (and not very good against Workshops) so I picked an anti-Workshop deck instead (that manages to lose to 2 Workshop-decks - go me!). I was originally planning a red deck just to rape Magus. But 65 isn't bad when almost all the losses are to one card.

EDIT: You're right, mag.
EDIT#2: I miscounted my match against Durkwood Baloth, I cannot force winning race on the draw as I thought since my Wurm comes into play a turn too late. For the record, Hunted Wumpus-version would've won TWO draws. I hate myself for switching to Tempting Wurm just before the deadline :S
EDIT#3: I don't lose to Tacosnape after all. It's WD. I can get my Wurm to block in time, but on the draw it isn't fast enough to race his Wheel AND Idol so I'm forced to Twist his Wheel and draw the match. On the play, I get my Wurm down at 14 and can Twist his Idol in time, winning at 1 life, or race. Originally I misread Wheel dealing 1 damage for 3 or less cards (á la The Rack) instead of less than 3 cards.

[wmagzoo7]

1. WW- 6
2. WL - 9
3. WW- 15
4. WL - 18
5. LL 18
6. WW 24
7. LL 24
8. WW 30
9. WL 33
10. LL 33
11. WL 36
12. WW 42
13. LL 42
14. LL 42
15. LL 42
16. WL 45
17. LL 45
18. WL 48
19. WW 54
20. LL 54
21. WW 60
22. WL 63
23. LL 63
24. LL 63
25. My Deck
Total 63
Eladriel I think our matchup goes
Me City, Scepter ( helix) U Grove 0
Me 23 U 17 Grove 1
Me 26 U 14 Grove 2
Me 29 U 11 Grove 3
Me 32 U 8 Grove 4
Me 35 U 5 Grove 5
Me 38 U 2 Grove 6
Me 41 U Dead
So it would be a 3-3 Split

[xsockmonkeyx]

This man speaks the truth. I support the banning as well, since it invalidates everything using non-basic lands and lotus is cut off as well becuase of chalice. Chalice - Magus of the Moon - Lotus is a stupid deck.

:P

There were 3 Lotus/Magus decks: Lotus/Magus/Chalice, Lotus/Magus/Glowrider, and Lotus/Magus/Preacher. I dont believe one of those decks lost when going first.

Obvious brokenness is obvious.

[Cait_Sith]

To everyone saying Magus needs to go:

Please READ THE POSTS ABOVE YOURS. Magus already went! I added it to the banned list.

Also, as of right now I will continue to do these 3CB. If I end up doing umbers 6-10 I will probably offer some sort of prize, maybe a Thoughtseize (if I don't decide to play Black Splash Goblins) or a Gaddock Teeg.

[Pinder]

1. LL - 0 (Wheel of Torture = bad )
2. WW - 6 (Stuffy Doll = Indestructable)
3. N/A (It's-a me!)
4. LL - 0 (Daze > Me)
5. WW - 6 (Doll = Indestructable)
6. LL - 0 (RFG > Stuffy Doll)
7. LL - 0 (Magus of teh Pwn)
8. WW - 6 (Had to look up Null Chamber)
9. LL - 0 (Magus > All Challengers)
10. LL - 0 (A tad too much Resistance...)
11. LL - 0 (Magus, man. You just can't beat the motherfucker.)
12. WW - 6 (Had to do math on that one, but my damage comes online faster)
13. LL - 0 (He gets a big flying beater before I can ping him to death).
14. LL - 0 (Gogo Magus)
15. WW - 6 (Doll = Indestructable blocker)
16. WL - 3 (It all depends on if he can nab my powerstone before I can play it).
17. LL - 0 (Rahr. Magus = teh pwnage)
18. WW - 6 (Wurm gives me Doll, Mold can't kill it)
19. LL - 0 (Tabernacle > Indestructable)
20. LL - 0 (FUCK Magus)
21. WW - 6 (You can't attack, nah nah nah nah nah...)
22. LL - 0 (So Kodama has Trample. Reading cards is for the win).
23. LL - 0(Damn you, Maaaaguuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuus!)
24. LL - (Turns out, Energy Field > Damage)
25. LL - 0(Waaaaaaaaah, you gain more life than I can ping for, waaaaaaaaah...)

45. About as bad as I was expecting.

[honz]

i think i am in contention for last place, with 48 points (give or take).

I was hoping for alot more out of sphere of resistance, but too many storage lands showed up. Better luck next time, i guess...

[Cait_Sith]

Pinder, Stuffy Doll deals damage, it does not cause loss of life. Energy Field shuts it off.

[Pinder]

Pinder, Stuffy Doll deals damage, it does not cause loss of life. Energy Field shuts it off.

Shit. My deck sucked even worse than I thought.

[Ridiculous Hat]

Cait, are you accepting submissions for the next round yet?

[Cait_Sith]

Not yet.

[marit]

1.DL
2.WD
3.WW
4.N/A
5.LL
6.WW
7.WL
8.WD
9.WL
10.WW
11.WL
12.LL
13.LL
14.WL
15.WL
16.WW
17.WL
18.WW
19.WD
20.WL
21.WD
22.WL
23.WL
24.LL
25.WL

Total of 77. I forgot Storage Lands>Daze.

[Cait_Sith]

I will begin to accept Submissions for 3CB #4 on Monday at 12:00 am. Please note the new banned list (Magus of the Moon added). Remember, the overall winner of 3CB 6-10 will receive a prize to be determined.

[frolll]

1. Tacosnape - Double Trouble
Mishra's Workshop
Chimeric Idol
Wheel of Torture
P 3
D 0
T 3
2. Eladriel - Tempting Twister
Rushwood Grove
Tempting Wurm
Desert Twister
P 3
D 3
T 9
3. Pinder - Power Doll
Worn Powerstone
Mishra's Workshop
Stuffy Doll
P 3
D 3
T 15
4. marit - Big Beastie
Durkwood Baloth
Tropical Island
Daze
P 3
D 0
T 18
5. Ridiculous Hat - t is for tools
Mishra's Workshop
Epochrasite
Powder Keg
P 3
D 0
T 21
6. WiLdFiRe - Unnamed
Calciform Pools
Karakas
Mangara of Corondor
P 3
D 3
T 27
7. SpatulaOfTheAges - LoxNBagles
Black Lotus
Glowrider
Magus of the Moon
P 0
D 0
T 27
8. technogeek5000 - Exploting the new banned list
Black Lotus
Null Chamber
Knight of the Holy Nimbus
P 1
D 0
T 28
9. dragon_demon1 - Chalice of the Moon
Chalice of the Void
Black Lotus
Magus of the Moon
P 1
D 0
T 29
10. honz - ~Hot Potato~
Mishra's Workshop
Sphere of Resistance
Scalding Tongs
P 1
D 0
T 30
11. xsockmonkeyx - Chalice of the Moon
Black Lotus
Chalice of the Void
Magus of the Moon
P 1
D 0
T 31
12. Whit3 Ghost - Bluff Tower
Mercadian Bazaar
Words of War
Ensnaring Bridge
P 3
D 3
T 37
13. Barook - IMMA CHARGIN MA ANGEL
Subterranean Hangar
Fountain of Cho
Angel of Despair
P 3
D 3
T 43
14. frolll - "The Infamous Red Moon That Is A Bad Omen"
City of Traitors
Mox Ruby
Magus of the Moon
OMG That's me
T 43
15. Mordenkain - Scales.dec
Mishra's Workshop
Culling Scales
Dryad Arbor
P 3
D 0
T 46
16. emidln - "Down on the Swamp by Godder"
Thallid
Duress
Bayou
P 3
D 0
T 49
17. Illissius - Good Deck
Black Lotus
Preacher
Magus of the Moon
P 0
D 0
T 49
18. georgjorge - Green Control
Rushwood Cove
Tempting Wurm
Creeping Mold
P 3
D 3
T 55
19. Belgareth - The Sheltered Factory
Sheltered Valley
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Mishra's Factory
P 3
D 3
T 61
20. Lego_Army_Man - Lotus/Magus/Preacher
Black Lotus
Magus of the Moon
Preacher
P 0
D 0
T 61
21. Nihil - This Cocaine Makes Me Feel Like I'm On This Deck
Rushwood Grove
Black Lotus
Quagnoth
P 3
D 3
T 67
22. Pale Moon FTW - Kodama Beatz
Black Lotus
Black Lotus
Kodama of the North Tree
P 0
D 0
T 67
23. Chosen by crystals - Wonder Why?
Black Lotus
Magus of the Moon
Glowrider
P 0
D 0
T 67
24. T is for TOOL - Can't Touch This
Saprazaan Cove
Energy Field
Darksteel Reactor
P 3
D 3
T 73
25. wmagzoo7 - Unnamed
City of Traitors
Isochron Scepter
Lightning Helix
P 3
D 0
T 76

76 :/

I guess that Magus deserves the banning he finally gets : even with a crappy deck I manage somehow to pull out some wins :wink: I look forward for the next tournament.

[Cait_Sith]

I will begin to accept Submissions for 3CB #4 on Monday at 12:00 am. Please note the new banned list (Magus of the Moon added). Remember, the overall winner of 3CB 6-10 will receive a prize to be determined.

Since someone already sent in a submission. I am going to quote this. I WILL ACCEPT THEM STARTING MONDAY MIDNIGHT EST!

[Belgareth]

1. Tacosnape - Mishra's Workshop, Chimeric Idol, Wheel of Torture - TT-2
2. Eladriel - Rushwood Grove, Tempting Wurm, Desert Twister - WW-6
3. Pinder - Worn Powerstone, Mishra's Workshop, Stuffy Doll - WW-6
4. marit - Durkwood Baloth, Tropical Island, Daze - WW-6
5. Ridiculous Hat - Mishra's Workshop, Epochrasite, Powder Keg - WW-6
6. WiLdFiRe - Calciform Pools, Karakas, Mangara of Corondor - WW-6
7. SpatulaOfTheAges - LoxNBagles - Delicious - LL-0
8. technogeek5000 - Black Lotus, Null Chamber, Knight of the Holy Nimbus -WW-6
9. dragon_demon1 - Chalice of the Void, Black Lotus, Magus of the Moon - LL-0
10. honz - Mishra's Workshop, Sphere of Resistance, Scalding Tongs - WW-6
11. xsockmonkeyx - Black Lotus, Chalice of the Void, Magus of the Moon - LL-0
12. Whit3 Ghost - Mercadian Bazaar, Words of War, Ensnaring Bridge - TT-2
13. Barook - Subterranean Hangar, Fountain of Cho, Angel of Despair -WW-6
14. frolll - City of Traitors, Mox Ruby, Magus of the Moon -LL-0
*15. Mordenkain - Mishra's Workshop, Culling Scales, Dryad Arbor - WW-6
16. emidln - Thallid, Duress, Bayou - WW - 6
17. Illissius - Black Lotus, Preacher, Magus of the Moon - LL- 0
18. georgjorge - Rushwood Cove, Tempting Wurm, Creeping Mold - WW - 6
20. Lego_Army_Man - Black Lotus, Magus of the Moon, Preacher - LL - 0
21. Nihil - Rushwood Grove, Black Lotus, Quagnoth - WW - 6
22. Pale Moon FTW - Black Lotus, Black Lotus, Kodama of the North Tree - WW-6
23. Chosen by crystals - Black Lotus, Magus of the Moon, Glowrider - LL-0
24. T is for TOOL - Saprazaan Cove, Energy Field, Darksteel Reactor -LL-0
25. wmagzoo7 - City of Traitors, Isochron Scepter, Lightning Helix - LL-0



Liable to change, done quickly in my head.

[Nihil Credo]

Heh, worst metagame call ever. I beat exactly five people and draw once with another.

31 points, yay!

[Pale Moon FTW]

1. WL 3
2. DD 5
3. WW 11 (Trample damage goes through the doll. I deal you 5 damage each turn, you deal me one.)
4. WL 14 (You win on the play by dazing my Lotus)
5. WW 20
6. WW 26
7. WL 29
8. WW 35
9. WL 38
10. WL 41
11. WL 44
12. WL 47
13. WW 53
14. WW 59
15. WW 65 (Shroud FTW)
16. WL 68
17. WW 75 (Shroud dodges Preacher)
18. DD 77
19. LL 77
20. WW 83
21. WD 87
23. WL 90
24. LL 90
25. WL 93

Seems like a good choice in this meta. Apparently storage lands were the big thing this time.

[Eldariel]

1. Tacosnape - Mishra's Workshop, Chimeric Idol, Wheel of Torture - TT-2
2. Eladriel - Rushwood Grove, Tempting Wurm, Desert Twister - WW-6
3. Pinder - Worn Powerstone, Mishra's Workshop, Stuffy Doll - WW-6
4. marit - Durkwood Baloth, Tropical Island, Daze - WW-6
5. Ridiculous Hat - Mishra's Workshop, Epochrasite, Powder Keg - WW-6
6. WiLdFiRe - Calciform Pools, Karakas, Mangara of Corondor - WW-6
7. SpatulaOfTheAges - LoxNBagles - Delicious - LL-0
8. technogeek5000 - Black Lotus, Null Chamber, Knight of the Holy Nimbus -WW-6
9. dragon_demon1 - Chalice of the Void, Black Lotus, Magus of the Moon - LL-0
10. honz - Mishra's Workshop, Sphere of Resistance, Scalding Tongs - WW-6
11. xsockmonkeyx - Black Lotus, Chalice of the Void, Magus of the Moon - LL-0
12. Whit3 Ghost - Mercadian Bazaar, Words of War, Ensnaring Bridge - TT-2
13. Barook - Subterranean Hangar, Fountain of Cho, Angel of Despair -WW-6
14. frolll - City of Traitors, Mox Ruby, Magus of the Moon -LL-0
*15. Mordenkain - Mishra's Workshop, Culling Scales, Dryad Arbor - WW-6
16. emidln - Thallid, Duress, Bayou - WW - 6
17. Illissius - Black Lotus, Preacher, Magus of the Moon - LL- 0
18. georgjorge - Rushwood Cove, Tempting Wurm, Creeping Mold - WW - 6
20. Lego_Army_Man - Black Lotus, Magus of the Moon, Preacher - LL - 0
21. Nihil - Rushwood Grove, Black Lotus, Quagnoth - WW - 6
22. Pale Moon FTW - Black Lotus, Black Lotus, Kodama of the North Tree - WW-6
23. Chosen by crystals - Black Lotus, Magus of the Moon, Glowrider - LL-0
24. T is for TOOL - Saprazaan Cove, Energy Field, Darksteel Reactor -LL-0
25. wmagzoo7 - City of Traitors, Isochron Scepter, Lightning Helix - LL-0



Liable to change, done quickly in my head.


I think I WW against you. I can Desert Twister your Mishra's Factory before it kills me (it takes me 8 turns to Desert Twister it and you won't be swinging before turn 2) and then build up enough counters to drop Tempting Wurm and pay for it many enough turns to kill you through Sheltering Valley and the Tabernacle.


1.Dl
2.LL
3.WW
4.N/A
5.LL
6.WW
7.WL
8.WD
9.WL
10.WW
11.WL
12.LL
13.LL
14.WL
15.WL
16.WW
17.WL
18.WW
19.WD
20.WL
21.WD
22.LL
23.WL
24.LL
25.WL

Total of 70. I forgot Storage Lands>Daze.

I DL against you, you on the play:
You: Trop-Baloth
Me: Grove
You: 4 counters
Me: 1 counter
You: 3 counters
Me: 2 counters
You: 2 counters
Me: 3 counters
You: 1 counter
Me: Wurm
You: Swing - block, trade, GG. My Twister is exactly half turn too slow on the draw so I gotta Draw it.

[marit]

4. marit - Durkwood Baloth, Tropical Island, Daze - WW-6

Liable to change, done quickly in my head.

This is wrong, the best you can do is draw, because once baloth resolves you can't attack unless you want to lose. Your life total doesn't matter if you can;t damage me. On the play I believe I race you, here's what happens.

Me: Trop, Baloth to 5
You: Factory
Me: Baloth to 4
You: Sheltered Valley, swing 18/20
Me: Baloth to 3
You: Tabernacle, swing 16/21
Me: Baloth to 2
You: Swing 14/22
Me: Baloth to one
You: Swing 12/23
Me: Baloth resolves, Swing 12/19
You: Swing 10/20
Me: Swing 10/15
You: Swing 8/16
Me: Swing 8/11
You: Swing 6/12
Me: Swing 6/7
You: Swing 4/8
Me: Swing 4/3
You: Swing 2/4
Me: Win

On the draw, since I will lose the race I just leave Baloth, and watch you get infinite life without attacking. Tabernacle does nothing because When Baloth comes in my Trop will be untapped, and I can pay.



I DL against you, you on the play:
You: Trop-Baloth
Me: Grove
You: 4 counters
Me: 1 counter
You: 3 counters
Me: 2 counters
You: 2 counters
Me: 3 counters
You: 1 counter
Me: Wurm
You: Swing - block, trade, GG. My Twister is exactly half turn too slow on the draw so I gotta Draw it.
I see, thanks. Checking is the hardest part of 3cb.

[Barook]

13. Barook - Subterranean Hangar, Fountain of Cho, Angel of Despair -WW-6

No - you have a clock which can kill me on Turn 11. Instead of playing my Angel on turn 6, I'll just charge my lands for another turn, play my Angel on turn 7, killing your Factory and then proceed to kill you because now I'm able to pay the upkeep every turn by using my charge lands.

I'll edit this post later and finish my calculations because I'm too tired right now and my head hurts.

My deck: Subterranean Hangar, Fountain of Cho, Angel of Despair

1. Tacosnape - Mishra's Workshop, Chimeric Idol, Wheel of Torture - LL-0
2. Eladriel - Rushwood Grove, Tempting Wurm, Desert Twister - WW-6
3. Pinder - Worn Powerstone, Mishra's Workshop, Stuffy Doll - WW-6
4. marit - Durkwood Baloth, Tropical Island, Daze - WW-6
5. Ridiculous Hat - Mishra's Workshop, Epochrasite, Powder Keg -WW-6
6. WiLdFiRe - Calciform Pools, Karakas, Mangara of Corondor - LL-0
7. SpatulaOfTheAges - LoxNBagles - Delicious - LL-0
8. technogeek5000 - Black Lotus, Null Chamber, Knight of the Holy Nimbus -WW-6
9. dragon_demon1 - Chalice of the Void, Black Lotus, Magus of the Moon - LL-0
10. honz - Mishra's Workshop, Sphere of Resistance, Scalding Tongs - WW-6
11. xsockmonkeyx - Black Lotus, Chalice of the Void, Magus of the Moon - LL-0
12. Whit3 Ghost - Mercadian Bazaar, Words of War, Ensnaring Bridge -WW-6
13. Myself - N/A
14. frolll - City of Traitors, Mox Ruby, Magus of the Moon -LL-0
15. Mordenkain - Mishra's Workshop, Culling Scales, Dryad Arbor - WW-6
16. emidln - Thallid, Duress, Bayou - WW-6
17. Illissius - Black Lotus, Preacher, Magus of the Moon - LL- 0
18. georgjorge - Rushwood Cove, Tempting Wurm, Creeping Mold - WD-4
19. Belgareth - Sheltered Valley, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Mishra's Factory - WW-6
20. Lego_Army_Man - Black Lotus, Magus of the Moon, Preacher - LL - 0
21. Nihil - Rushwood Grove, Black Lotus, Quagnoth -WW-6
22. Pale Moon FTW - Black Lotus, Black Lotus, Kodama of the North Tree - LL-0
23. Chosen by crystals - Black Lotus, Magus of the Moon, Glowrider - LL-0
24. T is for TOOL - Saprazaan Cove, Energy Field, Darksteel Reactor -WW-6
25. wmagzoo7 - City of Traitors, Isochron Scepter, Lightning Helix - WW-6

Total points: 82

PS: Good call on banning Magus - it was just too retarded in this format.

[Eldariel]

Barook, you WW against me, if I play out Wurm, you can get in Angel and blow up my Wurm and kill me before I get to Twister-mana, if I don't, you can play out Angel and blow up my land. You're many turns faster than my Twister.

[Barook]

@Eldariel: Yeah, you're right.

On a side note: I like Nihil's deck, considering that I had planned to submit a variant of this deck myself. The deck is ideal to slaughter the Unmask decks if executed well. The Lotus variant may be a bit faster, but suffers from being hit by Trinisphere and Unmask among other things.

My initial list for this round was

Fungal Reaches
Mishra's Factory
Quagnoth

which had a Plan B in form of Mishra beats if something went wrong. But I abandoned this idea in fear of Bridge decks, just to get raped by a bazillion Magus decks... :rolleyes:

[Eldariel]

I think all my calculations are correct. Do I win something for finishing at 69 points?

[Cait_Sith]

Other than complete total and utter mockery for not playing Flash in a Flash meta?

My condolences.

[Illissius]

I think we should start a new thread again for the next round, because this seems to have a sizeable effect on participation.

[Eldariel]

Cait: Are you telling me the goal of this isn't to get 69 points? Tell things like that before the tournament!

But yea, gotta see if some other kind of non-basic hate could work here. It looks sound as a strategy...although the meta will probably be all Lotus-decks next time :S

[Cait_Sith]

I am afraid so. The goal is to get high points, not sex points. But if I had lesbian dollars I'd give them to you.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

But yea, gotta see if some other kind of non-basic hate could work here. It looks sound as a strategy...although the meta will probably be all Lotus-decks next time :S

The strategy was to have a kill condition and a way to shut off the opponent's mana base on the play every game(other than fireball.dec), and on the draw against half the field. Magus was the only way to really do that.

[Eldariel]

The strategy was to have a kill condition and a way to shut off the opponent's mana base on the play every game(other than fireball.dec), and on the draw against half the field. Magus was the only way to really do that.

I'm aware of that, I was just thinking if there isn't a way to replicate it by using both non-mana cards for some similar effect. I suppose all the non-basic hate will be too expensive to work explosively enough though.

[Cait_Sith]

Theoretically the person can still do Lotus-Blood Moon-Dryad Arbor, but that lacks quite a bit of punch.

Edit: Wait... DUUUUH. I suck. So yea, the ends the en masse non-basic hate.

[Pinder]

But if I had lesbian dollars I'd give them to you.

Me too. But I tend to squander those quickly on, you know, lesbians.

[Cait_Sith]

Me too. But I tend to squander those quickly on, you know, lesbians.

I'd horde them if I had them, but I had so many lesbian friends I never bothered to get any.

[Illissius]

Theoretically the person can still do Lotus-Blood Moon-Dryad Arbor, but that lacks quite a bit of punch.

Edit: Wait... DUUUUH. I suck. So yea, the ends the en masse non-basic hate.

Actually, I think Dryad + Moon results in a 1/1 Land Creature -- Mountain Dryad.

[Barook]

Actually, I think Dryad + Moon results in a 1/1 Land Creature -- Mountain Dryad.


Q: If there is a Magus of the Moon in play and I play a Dryad Arbor, is it still a creature, is it still a Dryad, and can it tap for mana the turn it comes into play?

A: Yes, this Dryad Arbor is still a creature and a Dryad, but it will now have the land subtype of Mountain. It can be tapped for red mana, but not the turn it comes into play, as it is still a creature and affected by what used to be called 'summoning sickness.'

[Illissius]

Thanks for confirming. You can also use Black Lotus / Treasure Hunter / Blood Moon, anyways.

[Barook]

I'm done with my calculations and edited my post. 82 points are not that bad for going rogue, considering there were way too many Magus decks and knowing that I'm fucked if they show up in bigger numbers.


Ridiculous Hat - Mishra's Workshop, Epochrasite, Powder Keg

Barook - Subterranean Hangar, Fountain of Cho, Angel of Despair - WW - 34


I don't think so. I tested various ways to play it out, but I don't see any chance for you to win even a single game. If you go for a Turn 1 Keg, it has enough counters to kill my Angel on Turn 8, but my Angel comes already down on turn 6 to blow up your Keg, leaving you with a 1/1 Epochrasite while facing a 5/5 flyer. If you use your Keg to blow up your own Epochrasite, the best clock you can achieve is a kill on Turn 10, but that is still not fast enough, especially with the ability of my Angel to send your Epochrasite farming for a while.

You lose both games.

[Ridiculous Hat]

I'm done with my calculations and edited my post. 82 points are not that bad for going rogue, considering there were way too many Magus decks and knowing that I'm fucked if they show up in bigger numbers.



I don't think so. I tested various ways to play it out, but I don't see any chance for you to win even a single game. If you go for a Turn 1 Keg, it has enough counters to kill my Angel on Turn 8, but my Angel comes already down on turn 6 to blow up your Keg, leaving you with a 1/1 Epochrasite while facing a 5/5 flyer. If you use your Keg to blow up your own Epochrasite, the best clock you can achieve is a kill on Turn 10, but that is still not fast enough, especially with the ability of my Angel to send your Epochrasite farming for a while.

You lose both games.You're right.

[Pale Moon FTW]

I really think that Glowrider should be on the watch list. It is to Lotus-based decks what Magus was to land-based decks plus it even also screws over many land-based decks that don't have spare mana. There's been complaints about 3sphere (which I think is fair), but Glowrider is practically a fucking 3sphere on legs.

[Barook]

I don't think that Glowrider is really problematic, especially with Magus gone now. Trinisphere + win condition is really not that different and in my eyes, this combination is fair.

[Lego]

I think we should just unban everything. For serious, quit whining.