[Deck] BWr agro control (ish?)

[raharu]

Foreword: this post is just something to get the decklist out there. I'm pressed for time and won't be able to get the walkthrough or the actual prepared post out for a while.

This deck is the child of my obsession and fustration with BU and BWU control. I love it, but it's terrible. I tried to substitute red for blue in a control shell, and I hated it. I then decided to take the deck in an entirely new direction. Discard for a control element, butn for reach, vindicate for utility, and a well developed (but still it development) creature-base. Here's the list.

Creatures: 14
Isamaru, Hound of Konda X3
Dega Disciple X3
Serra's Avenger X3
Dark confidant X3
Jaya Ballard, Task Mage x2

Burn and removal: 12
Lightning Bolt X4
Lightning Helix X4
Vindicate X4

Disruption: 12
Duress X4
Expirate X4
Gererd's verdict X4

Artifacts: 4
Sensei's Diving Top X2
Uwezema's jitte X2 (spelling???)

Lands: 18
Plateau X1
Badlands X2
Scrublands X3
Plands X1
Mountian X1
Swamp X1
Fetchlands X9


Pretty straightforward, nothing too fancy, but it's effective. The Dega disciples are indeed questionable, but Dega Disciple grants a retarded amount of combat control, is great at shaving off and adding on dammage to unblocked creatures, and actually is a nice one-drop because your opponent tends to think you're retarded from turn one, which opens some intersting situations. Jitte is a no brainer, and Avenger loves jitte. Isamaru is just dangerous, and dark confidant and Sensei's Top are the only way to avoid topdecking (note: this IS a control deck, to some degree).

The deck is solid, but could use a little attention. It's like BWr Sligh with disruption and Confidant. I know that it's not enough like combo, thresh, goblins or landstill to generate interest, but oh well, I'll post anyways. Comments, sugestions?

OK, I've done a little more testing and Serra Avenger is definately staying, Boros Swiftblade is out because it's just not good enough, and Jaya MAKES MUC CRY. In adition to that she also happens to turn late game discard into volcanic hammers, which is also really nice.

This deck hates white thresh. The only thing that had a chance for killing a 6/6 in this deck is Vindicate, which is black... Me no likey Mystic Enforcer.

[raharu]

Revisions have been made, but I think I'm going to let this deck sit for a moment because I made another deck that I like better.

[Nihil Credo]

I tried the BWR Disruption/Weenies/Burn archetype several times, and it never worked out for me; it was always the underdog in pretty much every matchup, because it enjoyed no particular synergy between its pieces and only had one really powerful card (Dark Confidant). I will expand on these ideas if you are interested.

[Aggro_zombies]

Well, this is interesting. Someone played something like this a while ago in a tournament series around here, I'll look for the deck list later when I have time. Quickly, though:

1) Jaya seems really bad, with an ass of two and "tap" in all of her activation costs. Discarding cards in a deck with a ridiculously fragile draw engine also seems poor.

2) Dega Disciple is sooooo bad. Is this the best you can come up with? Run StP or more burn! If you want another one-drop guy, run Grim Lavamancer, since it actually taps to do something useful without costing you cards from your hand.

3) Hide//Seek seems like it might be decent here, especially against combo or decks like Survival. Might be more of a sideboard card though.

Actually, I lied. Here's his list, played on October 8th, 2006 to a second place finish.

4 Dark Confidant
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Grim Lavamancer
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Goblin Legionnaire
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
2 Cursed Scroll
4 Incinerate
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothill
4 Scrubland
4 Badlands
4 Plateau
2 Mountain
1 Skeletal Scrying

Sideboard:
4 Engineered Plague
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Duress
3 Ghostly Prison

[raharu]

I like the way the list looks, but it think it could suffer from a lack of discard (basicly the only way to affect what gets played from the hand). This deck needs Thoughtseize. Maybe the discard could look something like this?:

4x Duress
4x Thoughteize
4x Gerard's Verdict

moving the Extirpates to the board (even though I love the MD 'pates, I hesitate to cut Duress. I'll miss the 'pates because they break bacs in the control MU). I think that Stp should go somewhere now that burn has aparently become irrelevant.

[thefreakaccident]

Cut the red and play pikula... it seems that it would just have better match ups all around than this idea, as it has proven itself already, it is consistant, and it takes a toll on many decks for their weaknesses...

I think it has a place in the current meta, although I do not have the cards for it anymore and no one seems to have the balls to try running it, as they still think it is inherently weak... BWG would also be better, look into Funkbrew in the Established section.

I don't mean to be rude, but these are harsh truths that everyone must realize (burn can only be run in conjunction with tarmogoyf now!!!!!).

[Jak]

Burning Wish would be good.

[raharu]

I don't mean to be rude, but these are harsh truths that everyone must realize (burn can only be run in conjunction with tarmogoyf now!!!!!).

Unfortunately, this is true.

This deck is more agressive, where those decks go for the long game. This is pretty much trying to split the difference by being more agressive without losive so much on the control side that it A) burns out in the long game, or
B) Can't go agro, leaving control is it's only option. Red was chosen for the burn, making it so that in the early game, if you go agro and can't finish with creatures (as you sometimes find yourself), it can go to the throat with burn. Green gives the deck Tarmogoyf, which they use for defence (which is not the ideaology with this deck), but little else. Cutting red gives the deck room for more control, but I'm not too keen on a control deck that doesn't either stop it opponents from playing cards (Stax), or run permission (MUC/ Landstil/ whatever).

@ Jak.: Do you have any idea what the wishboard would look like? I'm sure some Vindicate are in order (^__^), but what else?

[Shtriga]

the creature base seems really poor to me, considering the kind of deck this is. but I kind of like the rest

[FoolofaTook]

Maybe something like this?

BWR - Aggro/Control

Creatures - 15

4x Dark Confidant
4x Mogg Fanatic
3x Jotun Grunt
2x Phyrexian Negator
2x Stonecloaker

Disruption - 13

4x Thoughtsieze
4x Duress
2x Armageddon
3x Wasteland

Removal - 9

3x Swords to Plowshares
2x Vindicate
2x Hide/Seek
2x Engineered Explosives

Burn - 4

4x Lightning Bolt

Mana - 19

4x Bloodstained Mire
3x Badlands
3x Scrubland
2x Plateau
2x City of Brass
2x Swamp
2x Plains
1x Mountain

[raharu]

I'm not too keen on Fanatic, 'Geddon, Wasteland, Grunt or Stonecloaker, but I like the rest very much. I think that 8 burn is a must. Hide/ Seek is pretty tech. I like it ^_^. I would find room for the 3rd Vindicate, though. I don't see the LD package as being too good though. It's a little on the petite side, and we don't have any land recursion. I don't know what direction it should go in; I would rather have it stay balanced like it is now, but you present some interesting concepts that stirs my interest. Maybe a build with Cracked Earth (R: each player sacrifeces a permenant, not so sure on the name), Flagstones of Tokair, and LD? Perhaps Crucible of Worlds with Wastelands and Factories? I'm not sure, maybe the current route is the best. Any direction that you want to take it in, post a list for it.

City of Brass?? :) I like it.

@ wishboard: something like this I think should suffice:

Shattering Spree x1
Vindicate x1-2 (I freaking LOVE this card!!!)
Pyroclasm x1 (Wrath of God? No sweep at all?)
maybe 1x 'Geddon (for Landstill)

Anything else? I'm sure I'm missing something here... I'll look in the TES thread!!! ^_^ They use it really well.

[FoolofaTook]

The problem I have with 8 burn in this kind of deck is that you really need 3 Swords to Plowshares also, for Goyfs, and I have trouble fitting all of that in without shorting the other necessary removal.

[Jak]

@ Jak.: Do you have any idea what the wishboard would look like? I'm sure some Vindicate are in order (^__^), but what else?

1 Vindicate
1 Haunting Echoes
1 Shattering Spree
1 Pyroclasm
1 Boil
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Chainer's Edict

Then add like 4 Extirpates, x Krosan Grips, etc. I really like Haunting Echoes because it is just really good to wish for in stalemates.

[raharu]

Like this?

Bwr agro-control

Creatures: 15
Mother of Runes x4
Dark Confidant x3
Spectral Lynx x3
Serra Avenger x3
Phyrexian Negator x2

Disruption: 11
Thoughtseize x4
Cabal Therapy x3
Extirpate x4

Artifacts: 5
Sensei’s Divining Top x3
Umezewa’a Jitte x2

Burn/ Removal: 11
Lightning Bolt x4
Lightning Helix x4
Vindicate x3

Lands: 18
Mountian x2
Plains x2
Swamp x1
Plateau x3
Scrubland x2
Badlands x2
Bloodstained Mire x3
Flooded Strand x3

Sorry... I'm not good at fitting in Wishes + wishboards...:cry:. The Vindicates may or may not be enough to take care of the Mr. T(armogoyf), but I'll have to test it before I can have any final conclusions (note: I've shelved this deck in favor of building Ubw thresh/ Fish, it it's probably going to be a while before I can get back to this).

[raharu]

In my mind, this looks worlds better than the last draft. Is has more board control from Cataclysm, Crack the Earth, and Vindicate, it has an all around better creature base that works with the board control, and it has more discard and burn. This should, in theory, let the deck switch roles quickly according to the situation. Here's the list:

Creatures: 14
Grim Lavamancer x3
Confidant x3
Oona’s Prowler x3
Serra Avenger x3
Tombstalker x2

Burn: 8
Lightning Bolt x4
Lightning Helix x4

Board Control: 9
Crack the Earth x3
Vindicate x3
Cataclysm x3

Discard: 8
Thougthseize x4
Extirpate x4

Atrifacts: 3
Sensei’s Divining Top x3

Lands: 18
Flagstones of Tokair x3
Plateau x3
Scrubland x1
Badlands x2
Bloodstained Mire x1
Flooded Strand x3
Plains x2
Mountain x2
Swamp x1

[alebronwebb]

I am really liking the list Raharu, a lot. Very nice use of Lavamancer and Tombstalker. And nice inclusion of Crack the Earth, never heard of it lol, its great in here. The deck really has a lot of nice synergies and looks like it can change roles pretty well.

I personally would add 1 Flagstones, since you run 3 Crack and 3 Cataclysm but thats just me. And maybe 1 more Lavamancer cutting 1 Extirpate, 4 seems overkill ecspecially with 'Stalker.

[raharu]

Really, Tombstalker + Grim Lavamancer = *_*, but unfortunately these things happen. With heaping loads of burn, symertical permanent removal, and discard on top of Dark Confidant's CA, I should have enough cards in the yard. Besides that, Grim Lavamancer is more of a early damage source and Tombstalker is the late-game fattie.

I'm not so sure about the 4th Lavamancer though. I'm eating a good bit from the yard, and I'm opening up previously nonexistent voulnerability to GY hate.

I need mre enchantments to take advantage of Cacaclysm. My thoughts thus far:

Moat (Yep yep, it's good here.)
Ghostly Prison (sideboard tech for the agro MU, if it's really needed).

That's it. Humility won't work, and I can't think of anything else. Maybe Phyrexian Arenas instead of Confidants? I don't know. For some reason I have been thinking of sulfuric Vortex, but that's terrible in the deck. Enchantments of any of the three colors are fine, but I haven't thought of anything good ofhand... You know what that means:

magiccards.info, ho!!!!!

[FoolofaTook]

I'm not so sure about the 4th Lavamancer though. I'm eating a good bit from the yard, and I'm opening up previously nonexistent voulnerability to GY hate.

This is a really good point. Aggro-control decks really need to limit their vulnerability as much as they can unless they're also running counters. When you have a 5 or 6 turn window to effectively win the game it really hurts you to have drops, like Leylines of the Void, that just kill you from the get go.

[raharu]

I really don't see any options for a better finisher (outside Tombstalker). Against agro I'll have the burn, Cacaslysm, and I'm also thinking of adding in Moats and 'Jittes in the board for the agro MU as well (DAMN!! Moat is exensive!!!!!).

I haven't put the deck together yet, bu tdo you really think that I'll only have a 5-6 turn window? Let us remember that I also have MD Vinditate for those annoying Leylines.

[alebronwebb]

I am also thinking Crime//Punishment would be really good against those annoying Void enchantments. Moat is really, really good. Yes they are quite expensive but are a god send against aggro. Ghostly Prison is a good sub. though.

Yeah, the fourth Lavamancer might have not been the best suggestion. But I still stand by the adding of the fourth Flagstones.

EDIT: Yes Hide//Seek, crappy memory skills FTL.

[raharu]

I am also thinking Crime//Punishment would be really good against those annoying Void enchantments.

I presume you mean Hide//Seek? Yeah, maybe as board material. I like them, but they seem conditional. Hide vs. enchantmemts, and Seek vs. Combo (They only run one of each win-con in the deck, making them really reliant on tutors/ wishes, and Seek on Empty the Warrens could be a pain in thier ass)?

[FoolofaTook]

I presume you mean Hide//Seek? Yeah, maybe as board material. I like them, but they seem conditional. Hide vs. enchantmemts, and Seek vs. Combo (They only run one of each win-con in the deck, making them really reliant on tutors/ wishes, and Seek on Empty the Warrens could be a pain in thier ass)?

Seek is badass against Tombstalkers. Get rid of one of their finishers and gain 8 life in the process.

[moOnsteak]

I've been working this deck for 1 year and here's my latest development :

Hide/Seek Aggro Control :

Maindeck:

Artifacts (4):
4 Aether Vial

Legendary Artifacts (2):
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Creatures (19):
3 Mother of Runes
4 Goblin Legionnaire
4 Epochrasite
4 Dark Confidant
4 Serra Avenger

Instants (12):
4 Hide / Seek
4 Swords To Plowshares
4 Magma Jet

Sorceries (4):
4 Thoughtseize

Basic Lands (2):
1 Mountain
1 Plains

Lands (17):
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Badlands
3 Scrubland
4 Plateau
4 Windswept Heath
4 Bloodstained Mire

Sideboard:
4 Orim's Chant
4 Pyroblast
4 Pyroclasm
3 Extirpate

[raharu]

Pray tell, fine sir: Where is your board control? In what way is your list anything like ours (/ mine?)? The deck is hardcore agro with some vague discard and a little burn. Swords to Plowshares is soemwhat sub-par in the deck because it reduces the effect of your early barage, which is why I prefer Vindicate. Cataclysm and Crack the Earth, alongside Vindicate, allow me to shift into a board-control state, and the 4 Thoughtseize and 4 Extirpate let me stop things from getting played, and also allows me to get rid of problematic permanents that I would rather not let resolve. Hide//Seek is not the main focus of the deck, and actually is a recent addition. Honestly, I view it as more of a super-tech badass board card, and I personally won't be running any (or at least not 4) in the main.

[moOnsteak]

I'm sorry sir if I just post my list without any explanation about it. .I'm a lil bit busy yesterday and I've just try to post what I've done to a deck with :b::w::r: elements inside and find what you people thinking about it. .

So. .here's more about my deck :
What I try to say is I like to put 4 Aether's Vial and 4 Hide/Seek in this kind of deck. .
The themes are how to control what happen on the field and beat down the opponent in the same time. .
One day I run Grim Lavamancer but not impressed with it. .
Goblin Legionnairre is underwhelming today so I'll replace it soon. .
Mother of Rune are there as answer of unstoppable Tarmogoyf and protect the others. .
I also find that I rarely see my Jitte give advantage, so I'll replace it too by some more controlling element. .
But Crack the Earth is a very good option and will be come to my consideration. .same as Oona's Prowler. .I'll prepare places for them. .

Why vial?
Vial is the core of this deck. .make my creatures uncounterable, flash, and let my mana open. .
With vial, you can drop Avenger one turn earlier, same as you can drop Epochrasite bigger. .
Also if you run Cataclysm, vial will be the one and only artifact you have to cast your next creature (since sensei can simply evade to the top)

Why I don't include Vindicate and / or Cataclysm? Simply because they are more than 2cc. .If you look my mana base, those spells are unable to cast (for me). .Especially with Cataclysm, that sounds underwhelming for me, yes you'll have usually 1 more land (since there's Flagstone here), but without any equipment, anyone of your creatures (maybe Tombstalker will be) won't be a challenger for one of opponent's goyf which dominating in this day meta. .

Why there's no Tombstalker?
THis monster cost me :b::b:, un'vial'able so it'll have a fight with Serra to be casted. .and we only run 4 :b: producer, don't we? But yeah I'll looking for chances to put him inside, low cost for 5/5 flying and able to weaken Goyf is too good to be left outside. .

Why Epochrasite?
Because this creature is powerful and has good synergies with the others. .with vial @2 it'll be 4/4 flash uncounterable. .with Crack the Earth or Cataclysm it'll be another option if you don't have Flagstone or if you do but don't need more mana. .its ability to show in the next 3 turn for 4/4 is awesome, good vs control / other aggro control deck. .

Why I put only a little burn?
To be honest I see Magma Jet not as a burn but as a top decking including a burn spell. .I don't like any burn spells for this deck, the best you can deal 3 damage to a creature when StP can simply remove it. .or you deal 3 damage to player when your creatures can simply beat him/her. .

Why 4 Hide/Seek maindeck?
Hide/Seek was the main reason why I built this deck one year ago. .beautiful multi function card. .
In the beginning. .Seek use more often in order to gain life against red-based / threshold / aggro deck (remove Fireblast, Siege Gang Commander, Force of Will, or Exalted Angel is a jackpot). .especially because the player of this deck will lose a lot of life because of fetch land and dark confidant (thoughtseize for now)
But with the development of metagame. .Hide is more needed as a better disenchant / naturalize. .with Chalice @1, Counter Balance, Jitte, Oblivion Ring, Mana Bound, Cruicible of Worlds, Mishra's Factory, Darksteel Colossus, Aether's Vial, Epochrasite as target. .I believe this card provides a lot of solution that I need. .Why better? Because it's easier to revive something from graveyard than search it again from the bottom of library. .

What about my sideboard?
It's only temporary, sometimes I bring Magus of the Moon, Ghostly Prison, and Duress depending my meta. .

Have you considered Engineered Explosive?
Run 3 colors mean availability to blow it at 0, 1, 2, or 3. .
I'm not sure this card will be fit into the list but sometimes I feel I need a mass destroyer. .

Why I join into this thread?
I don't mean to ruin your building or make a different building instead. .I just want to share and find new things especially for :b::w::r: things. .owh and I can't avoid that my list is more aggro than yours. .but still I feel not necessary to create a new thread named 'Hide/Seek Aggro-Control'. .since it's my goal to be more controlling so it'll be more comfortable to discuss it together :smile:

[raharu]

In all verity, Sensei's Divining Top is simply better than Magma Jet at influencing what you draw. I have a hard time not putting it into decks, actually. The reason that I am so insistant on 8 burn is because in the early game I want to go to the throat, with fast creatures such as Grim Lavamancer, Avenger (though it may be slightly slower than desired), and Prowler (on that note, I want Isamaru back in the deck. Should I cut Prowlers for them?). Yes, Seek is golden, but I prefer more control in the deck (Crack the Earth and Cataclysm) and I don't see where I would want to make cuts for it. Also, I've been thinking that maybe I should cut 'Jittes for MD Mask of Memory.

So that leaves the list looking something like this?:

Creatures: 14
Grim Lavamancer x3
Isamaru x3
Dark Confidant x3
Serra Avenger x3
Tombstalker x2

Burn: 8
Lightning Bolt x4
Lightning Helix x4

Board Control: 9
Crack the Earth x3
Vindicate x3
Cataclysm x3

Discard: 8
Thougthseize x4
Extirpate x4

Atrifacts: 3
Sensei’s Divining Top x3

Lands: 18
Flagstones of Tokair x3
Plateau x3
Scrubland x1
Badlands x2
Bloodstained Mire x1
Flooded Strand x3
Plains x2
Mountain x1
Swamp x2

The big question: OMFG!! ARGGGGHH!!???? Where do the Masks of Memory go???!?!!?? I really want to have at least two or three in the deck, but I can't decide what to cut...

EDIT: oh yeah, I love good decks with transformational sideboards:

Sideboard:15
Hide//Seek x4
Orim's Chant x3
Isochron Scepter x4
Engineered Plague x4

[alebronwebb]

Oh, yeah Scepter-chant sideboard, omg I love this deck now.:smile:

I've been toying with the deck a bit, not much in ways of actual decent testing though, with the following changes. -3 Isamaru -1 Extirpate, +4 Mother of runes (I am a sucker for moms, espcially in deck with Lavamancer and Confidant). -3 Extirpate, +3 Hymn of Tourach (maybe, maybe not but it has allowed to get a quicker Stalker in play). -1 Cataclym, +1 Flagstones (ehh, I don't know). I think thats it, but yeah. A seriously fun deck to play, and not that bad at all really. I will try to post some results, if I can find people to play with. I will have to try the Scepter side board out, Scepter-chant or Scepter-Helix is just fun. I agree that Mask of Memory would be a great add, but not much I would like to cut.

[raharu]

The Scepter Transformation board is just something that I threw at the wall to see if it would stick. The main motivation behind that is the MD Extirpate (and I saw moOnsteak's SB Orim's Chants :smile:). I'll admit, Scepter + Extirpate didn't come from my head originally. It was a product of some team or another's (aYb???) "Dark Chant" deck, with discard, Chant, 'Pate, Raise the Alarm, and all kinds of other great stuff in it. With Hide, Seek, Extirpate, Chant and Helix (maybe some SB Holy Day :rolleyes:), Isochron Scepter looks like it might have some use as a Sideboard Transformation core. Meh, I'm not sure. One could replace Engineered Plauges in the board with Raise the Alarm for the full whamy, but I'm not so sure that it's a good idea... Again, this is simply me brainstorming aloud.

@ moOnsteak: I wasn't (trying) to be an ass or anything of the sort, I simply wondered what your post was trying to comunicate. I like the list (of course, I'm burn fixated though, so I can't say I wouldn't add more burn), and the points you bring up are very valid. The deck looks good, but it's not in the vein of the proceding decks. I would absolutely love AEther Vial, but unfortunately I can't find room... :frown:. Crack the Earth would be pretty hot with Epochrasite. Maybe he could find a slot in my list MD? I'll try to fit it in. Your list is more agro than mine, but I think that it would be good for my build to go more agro, and your list looks like a good starting point for it to do so, or at least a good place to draw good ideas from.

I droped the Oona's Prowlers because they didn't look coherent with the agro plan so much. Maybe that doesn't matter??? I haven't gotten to play around with the deck yet (still building Ubw thresh and UW CounterTopSliver), but my next purchase is going towards this deck for sure.

[moOnsteak]

Isamaru is a great creature but trust me. .everything it does is only beat for max 2-4 damage (0-2 against creatures based decks) and than do nothing. .Oona's Prowler is better in my opinion but only with intensive testing will prove it. .

This deck's real weakness laid on its manabase, so mana balancing is the top priority to make this deck competitive. .

Sensei is a card that I'll test based on your list. .it sounds promising :wink:

If currently you play with UBW thresh and UW CounterTopSliver. .it'll be nice if you test this deck against those two. .cause I find it'll be a hard game especially when goyf / counter top crystaline come before you can control the game. .
I myself have a close losing game against that two in 2 different tourney last December but take a revenge with Dragon Stompy last week :laugh:

[raharu]

'Goyf shouldn't be too bad, because 'Goyf generally hits play turn 3-4, most of the time as the only creature on thier board, so you can either Crack it (which makes them chose between a land or a beater, and Thresh is relatively land-light), or nail it with a Vindicate. Worst comes to worst and you have to double 'Bolt it on turn 2 (but it doesn't consistantly come down as a 3/4 on turn 2 that often, so that shouldn't happen).

@ Oona's Prowler vs. Isamaru: I like Isamaru because it lends to the "go for the throat" line of thinking. I'm not so sure that it would be better than Oona's Prowler, but it's faster, which is why I'm going to test Isamaru first. Prowler is probably better, and it throws off combo (or they die faster), but I don't know yet. We'll see.

[Thehunter820]

From my experience from playing you, the deck works well, but usually doesnt get enuff of anything, either you lack ENOUGH control or ENOUGH removal or ENOUGH creatures, although I think this list is coming along, I'll review it more on MWS and tell you some suggestions as its 12:30 AM and I gots schools.

[FoolofaTook]

From my experience from playing you, the deck works well, but usually doesnt get enuff of anything, either you lack ENOUGH control or ENOUGH removal or ENOUGH creatures, although I think this list is coming along, I'll review it more on MWS and tell you some suggestions as its 12:30 AM and I gots schools.


This is the BWR problem in a nutshell. It always has decent creatures, good disruption and excellent removal, however it is very vulnerable to getting caught topdecking against a control deck that is then going to beat it handily.

The old BWR aggro controls concentrated on getting up a really big nasty critter (Juzams, Juggernauts and even Sengir Vampires) turn 1 off of fast mana and then disrupting like hell in an attempt to make that critter the winner. This later evolved into a more concentrated under-costed critter rush that included predictable critter, critter, critter plays in an attempt to wear down the opponent's removal and counters, however at the expense of much of the disruption and some of the removal.

I think that with Goyf becoming a staple a lot of the breathing space for this kind of deck has vanished. Getting up a big critter early isn't as valid because Goyf can be 5/6 on turn 4 pretty easily and the critter-critter-critter thing doesn't work either because Counterbalance is just going to lock that down fast. I do think that concentrating on under-costed flyers is probably one of the good ideas here, at least that way the Goyfmates are all chosen by you out of dire need instead of by your opponent's living wall.

[moOnsteak]

I think that with Goyf becoming a staple a lot of the breathing space for this kind of deck has vanished. Getting up a big critter early isn't as valid because Goyf can be 5/6 on turn 4 pretty easily and the critter-critter-critter thing doesn't work either because Counterbalance is just going to lock that down fast. I do think that concentrating on under-costed flyers is probably one of the good ideas here, at least that way the Goyfmates are all chosen by you out of dire need instead of by your opponent's living wall.

This plan does work :smile:
Against Threshold players where Goyf become a silver bullet, I give them 50-50 chance to win and lose. .
1st turn vial is superb, next turn up onto 1 and EoT drop your Mother of Rune. .It's more than enough to handle Goyf forever and in the same time you beat your opponent with flier like Serra, Oona's Prowler, and / or Tombstalker. .
Everything you need to do is resolve your vial and the game will 70% under your control. .Duress and Thougtseize will help as back up to make this thing done. .


This is the BWR problem in a nutshell. It always has decent creatures, good disruption and excellent removal, however it is very vulnerable to getting caught topdecking against a control deck that is then going to beat it handily.

I also agree with this statement, run no :u: means this deck lack of draw spell and topdecking will be a real problem. .I've tried Sensei but it is underwhelming, especially with my low manabase (only 18 Lands with 8 fetch lands). .I used Magma Jet in the past until the appearance of Goyf. .Night Whisper will be next to be tested. .
Any more suggested cards?

[raharu]

I don' think can be of much help sugesting anything if I don't know what your list looks like.

[moOnsteak]

I don' think can be of much help sugesting anything if I don't know what your list looks like.

My bad, here's my list :

Hide/Seek Aggro Control version 3.4 :

Maindeck:

Artifacts (4):
4 Aether Vial

Creatures (21):
3 Mother of Runes
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Oona's Prowler
4 Epochrasite
4 Dark Confidant
4 Serra Avenger

Instants (8):
4 Hide / Seek
4 Swords To Plowshares

Sorceries (4):
4 Thoughtseize

Basic Lands (2):
1 Swamp
1 Plains

Empty slot (5):
2 ???
3 ???

Lands (16):
3 Badlands
2 Scrubland
3 Plateau
4 Windswept Heath
4 Bloodstained Mire

Sideboard:
4 Orim's Chant
4 Pyroblast
4 Pyroclasm
3 Extirpate

For the empty slots. .I wonder for 2 Smoother and 3 Jitte. .
But as we've realized before, topdecking is the main problem so I hope for some spells to solve that. .I've tried Sensei but my manabase doesn't give me permission to pay :1: each turn to look the top 3 of my library. .

Also Crack the Earth + Epochrasite / Flagstone is a nice tech but I find it's really rare to make a huge impact to the opponent so I cut it down. .