[Deck] Jenny from the Block

[Wallace]

Here is my list for Doran, the Siege Tower. It does not use walls for the win, but instead uses creatures with big butts to swing after gaining control of the game.

4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
4 Vindicate
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Sinkhole

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Onithopter
3 Phyrexian Walker
3 Doran, the Siege Tower

4 Wasteland
4 Bayou
4 Scrubland
2 Savannah
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Windswept Heath
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yagamoth
1 Swamp
1 Plains

Cards:

Spells

Duress & Thoughtseize: Duress has been a staple card in Black decks for some time now. The introduction of Thoughtseize gives black decks another weapon. I believe that playing these two cards together just makes them both better. You can now grab 8 cards at will from someone's hand. Combo will have a hard time recovering from this spot discard and control will lose some key cards to these spells. Duress will not be as good against Aggro but you can side them out after game 1.

Vindicate: This was an easy choice, the deck has black and white in it. The perfect fit too, Vindicate is a great removal spell because it can kill almost anything. It will hit that key combo piece and wreck that Tarmogoyf if needed.

Swords to Plowshares: Once again, like vindicate, this card just belongs in just about any deck containing white. Swords will get rid of any creature it can target, permanently!

Sinkhole: This was the last card I added to the deck. I may find something better but for now this will do. Sinkhole provides a great way to slow down any deck. Being able to blow up your opponent’s land nice and you combine this with Wasteland and throw in a Vindicate, lands down!

Creatures:

Doran, the Siege Tower: What can I say, he likes big buts! This is the creatures the whole deck is based around. Doran by himself is a 5/5 for :b::g::w:, no to bad. His real strength is the ability to let you play really cheap creatures that, with Doran in play, will be large. His only real drawback is that he is three colors, that or if he gets swordsed you gain zero.

Onithopter & Phyrexian Walker: Not to much to say here. These two creatures are a great fit with Doran, a 0/3 for :0: and a 0/2 flyer for :0:, nuff said. They're like Doran's two little pets barking and barking until he gives the word to attack!!

Dark Confidant: Bob is another no-brainer, this deck really needs a way to draw some extra cards and this guy fits the bill. This deck plays very similar to Dead Guy and we all know how good he is in that deck.

Tarmogoyf: Its a deck right?

Land:

The manabase might need some work but I think it will be ok. Wasteland makes sinkhole better and if you use vindicate as LD... The six fetches make it possible to grab the right combo. of lands to cast Doran and they stabilize the 3 colors. Urborg is nice because it allows you wastelands and savannahs to produce black mana. The on of swamp and plains will help if you need a basic to counter wasteland.

Let me know what ya think about this build.

[Brehn]

I might suggest Cabal Therapy in place of Sinkhole/Duress. First turn Swamp, Ornithopter, 2x Therapy seems hawt.

23 lands with your curve stopping at 3 looks like overkill. Maybe add some Treefolk Harbingers as your deck seems to rely on Doran quite a lot.

[Wallace]

I might suggest Cabal Therapy in place of Sinkhole/Duress. First turn Swamp, Ornithopter, 2x Therapy seems hawt.

23 lands with your curve stopping at 3 looks like overkill. Maybe add some Treefolk Harbingers as your deck seems to rely on Doran quite a lot.

Its 23 land but the 4 wastelands hinder the manabase a little bit plus it is playing 6 fetch lands to grab the 3 colors needed to cast Doran. Therapy may work but it can be to random for what I am trying to do with this deck. I want to hit a card with the spell every time. Duress may wiff once and a while but I think it is the better choice.

[Happy Gilmore]

Wouldn't the treefolk tutor be better than the walker since it is the same P/T and searches for Doran?

[Shriekmaw]

Here is my list for Doran, the Siege Tower. It does not use walls for the win, but instead uses creatures with big butts to swing after gaining control of the game.

4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
4 Vindicate
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Sinkhole

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Onithopter
3 Phyrexian Walker
3 Doran, the Siege Tower

4 Wasteland
4 Bayou
4 Scrubland
2 Savannah
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Windswept Heath
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yagamoth
1 Swamp
1 Plains




I would definitely cut the thoughtseize for now and replace them with cabal therapies. The creatures that you play are very cheap and would make flash backing therapies not a real problem. I like the vindicate and swords in the build for removal. Seems like a very solid deck. I would probably cut 1 land, going to 22. I would like to see more basic lands in the build. Urborg is definitely not needed.

[thefreakaccident]

r u kidding? Thoughtseize is probably the best discard spell to date, being able to get anything without a significant drawback... I don't think you want sinkhole... perhapes run extripate?

[Wallace]

r u kidding? Thoughtseize is probably the best discard spell to date, being able to get anything without a significant drawback... I don't think you want sinkhole... perhapes run extripate?
If anything I would drop duress for Therapy. I don't know about Extirpate, but do agree that I don't really want sinkhole.

[Cavius The Great]

@Sacearuse - Have you considered Yotian Soldier as an additional beater? A 4/4 vigilance for 3 mana ain't too shabby.

[Wallace]

@Sacearuse - Have you considered Yotian Soldier as an additional beater? A 4/4 vigilance for 3 mana ain't too shabby.
I did look at the soldier, while :3: ain't bad I think there are better choices. I really want to play creatures, that by themselves are good. The :0: drops are good as blockers and they sac. therapy, which I will be adding to my new list.

[Cavius The Great]

I did look at the soldier, while :3: ain't bad I think there are better choices. I really want to play creatures, that by themselves are good. The :0: drops are good as blockers and they sac. therapy, which I will be adding to my new list.

Yotian Soldier ain't bad by itself in my opinion. It's a pretty decent blocker as a 1/4. I would maybe pack four and include Birds of Paradise in your build to accelerate it out. That's another thing, your deck has no accelleration. You desperately need BOP in the deck. They also attack as 1/1 flyers with Doran which is another plus.

[FakeSpam]

Birds would also help to smooth out the 3 color requirement of Doran. They aren't bad flashback fodder, and they make wasteland just that much better.

They are much better than phyrexian walker. By far.

[Nightmare]

Birds would also help to smooth out the 3 color requirement of Doran. They aren't bad flashback fodder, and they make wasteland just that much better.

They are much better than phyrexian walker. By far.In reality, they're better than Ornithopter, while Treefolk Harbringer is better than Walker. Even though :0: seems sexier than :g:, in both cases, the one green mana is well worth the advantages each creature brings to the table.

[Maveric78f]

If you did a bit of testing you would quickly understand that the harbinger if the reason to play Doran.

[Cavius The Great]

With all of the suggestions we've made, this pretty much turns into Maveric's Tarmfolk. :tongue:

[Wallace]

In reality, they're better than Ornithopter, while Treefolk Harbringer is better than Walker. Even though :0: seems sexier than :g:, in both cases, the one green mana is well worth the advantages each creature brings to the table.

I see where birds will be a big help in this deck. I really want to run one of the :0: drops though. I have a list I am going to be testing over the next couple of weeks. I will see how the birds do, then I will test the Harbringer. The :0: drops provide the chance for a very nice first turn Therapy, Flashback Therapy. I also like the :0: drops because I can play them while still casting other spells. The list I am currently testing looks like this, changes are in bold:

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Thoughtseize
4 Vindicate
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Sinkhole

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Doran, the Siege Tower
3 Onithopter

4 Wasteland
4 Bayou
4 Scrubland
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Windswept Heath
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Forest

Removed: 4 Duress, 3 Walker, 2 Savannah, 1 Urborg, tomb of Yawgmoth.

I also have to ask, how does this deck compair to the normal Dead Guy builds you see. Does anyone think this will be any better than Dead Guy or should I just stick to the classic build of the deck.

[DragoFireheart]

Is there a reason you are running thopters over walkers? It's not like thopter is going to stop any of the good flying creatures [Sea Drake for example] and Walker provides a fatter butt.

[Swing4Five]

Unearth might be handy for getting Doran back from an enemy thoughtseize/ any non-swords removal, or any of your Therapy flashback victims.

Harbringer -> tutor for needed Forest dual
Therapy, sac Harbringer -> Flashback Therapy, Unearth Harbringer -> tutor for Doran

or something similar

[gmorakis]

Skyshroud Elite seems like it should work pretty well with Doran. A 3/3 for :g: is pimp, especially since it doesn't completely suck without Doran's presence on the board.

[Cavius The Great]

Vine Dryad might be even better as a 3/3 for free. Yes, free. I also like it a little bit better than Skyshroud Elite since the Elite is a 1/1 like 50% of the time. Trust me, I've tested the card.

[Jaynel]

Or Phyrexian Walker.

[Cavius The Great]

Phyrexian Walker isn't a 1/3. :wink:

[Jaynel]

But you don't have to pitch a Doran or a Tarmogoyf to play him. :wink:

[Wallace]

But you don't have to pitch a Doran or a Tarmogoyf to play him. :wink:

Vine Dryad does not belong in this deck. Like Jaynel said You would have to pitch Doran, Goyf or another Dryad to play a Dryad. I do agree that Dryad will work very well with Doran, just not in this deck...

[Versus]

Not that matters much, but I've been running Ohran Viper in my pre-Standard build. 3/3 deathtouch with Doran out or possible CA is pretty friggin solid.

Also the Harbinger is great. 1000 times better in Legacy as you can fetch a dual, but still working out well so far in my testing. Wall of Roots is amazing in the control version as well.

[DURESSyou92]

this deck is so fun

gaddock teeg over duress

[Mirrislegend]

I think the original decklist is very playable as it is. I would personally drop 4 Sinkholes for 4 Treefolk Harbinger and readjust the land base to allow for maximum forest-fetch abuseability.

Also, I'm not certain if Wastelands are worth the slots: they slow the deck from aggro to bad aggro-control, which is a mode that it doesn't play to the same degree of success. Sans Wasteland, we can fit in 4 more beaters, hit Doran and Goyf more consistently, and just generall use Jenny's big booty to beat their face in all that much more effeciently. But what to put in for the Wastelands?

EDIT:
Gaddock Teeg is great in this deck, but is in no way MD material over Duress. But at least 3 Teeg in SB.

[Wallace]

First off I would like to say keep up the feedback!

The Sinkholes are great; it gives your opponent something else to think about, same with the Wastelands. Running just beaters and discard is not enough. I love the interaction between sinkhole and Wasteland, with all of the short land counts being run now days; it punishes you opponent for their build. Treefolk Harbinger will be replacing Onithopter in the main, the ability to search for a Land or A Doran is to great to pass up. Onithopter works well with Doran, but I think the Harbinger is a better fit.

[DURESSyou92]

This is what Im using right now (MWS), its pretty close to the original except for a couple of things

4 Duress/Gaddock teeg
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Sinkhole

4 Birds of Paradise
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Phyrexian Walker
4 Treefolk Harbringer
3 Doran, the Siege Tower
2 Onithopter

4 Bayou
4 Scrubland
4 Savannah
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Windswept Heath

Birdsreally helpful for tun 2 Doran/more disruption
Tree Manthis deck relies needs to have Doran to win, and 3 isn't enough

[DURESSyou92]

This is what Im using right now (MWS), its pretty close to the original except for a couple of things

4 Duress/Gaddock teeg
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Sinkhole

4 Birds of Paradise
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Phyrexian Walker
4 Treefolk Harbringer
3 Doran, the Siege Tower
2 Onithopter

4 Bayou
4 Scrubland
4 Savannah
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Windswept Heath

Birds really helpful for tun 2 Doran/more disruption
Tree Man this deck relies needs to have Doran to win, and 3 isn't enough

EDIT oops sorry for the double post

[Wallace]

This is what Im using right now (MWS), its pretty close to the original except for a couple of things

4 Duress/Gaddock teeg
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Sinkhole

4 Birds of Paradise
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Phyrexian Walker
4 Treefolk Harbringer
3 Doran, the Siege Tower
2 Onithopter
4 Bayou
4 Scrubland
4 Savannah
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Windswept Heath

Birdsreally helpful for tun 2 Doran/more disruption
Tree Manthis deck relies needs to have Doran to win, and 3 isn't enough

I am glad to see this list getting some testing. Gaddock is not needed in the main board, he is a great SB card. The walkers and Onithopters are nice, I really don't like dead cards though, if Doran Gets killed or Exterpated what do you do. I think Doran's real roll is just to be a 5/5 beater you can drop on turn 3. Keep testing though and lnk what ya think.

[DURESSyou92]

If Doran gets extirtpated (not played much) then you just hope to get a tarmogyf. Thats also why you have all the disruption; to prevent that from happening and to get time to play Doran.The deck does still need work.

[boris13]

Actaully Extirpate from what Ive seen gets a lot of play. If doesnt where ever you are it should. Its a great way to get rid of force of wills once your oppenets used them, get rid of goyfs after dealing with their first ones. With this deck getting rid of Doran gets rid of a really good win condition. I would always play Extirpate in any black deck main or side board.

[Wallace]

Actaully Extirpate from what Ive seen gets a lot of play. If doesnt where ever you are it should. Its a great way to get rid of force of wills once your oppenets used them, get rid of goyfs after dealing with their first ones. With this deck getting rid of Doran gets rid of a really good win condition. I would always play Extirpate in any black deck main or side board.


Thank you Joe, I was just about to say that, extirpate is heavley played. It is an amazing card, if you don't see that then I don't know...

Joe with the New Build I have made, Doran is just another beater. You can drop him turn 3 and just go to town. He is great at taking the STP so you Tarmogoyf can get through too. By not playing the :0: drop Walker and Onithopter you maximize you beaters. If you do play the :0: drops they are stuck on blocking detail until you Resolve Doran.

[rufus]

An issue is that green, black, and white have a lot to offer in terms of utility cards in the form of disruption and removal. If you're going to play WGB aggro-control, there's honestly no real need for any sort of combo. It takes a horde otherwise relatively useless critters to significantly improve Doran as a clock anyway.

Critters:
Tarmogoyf
Doran, The Seige Tower
Gaddok Teeg
Dark Confidant
Glowrider/Mangara of Koronder/Hypnotic Specter/Nimble Mongoose...

Control/Disruption
Thoughtseize
Duress
Pernicious Deed
Vindicate
Krosan Grip

The combo side of things isn't really that bad, but it seems like a bit of a stretch to run it with black/white/green.

[Wallace]

An issue is that green, black, and white have a lot to offer in terms of utility cards in the form of disruption and removal. If you're going to play WGB aggro-control, there's honestly no real need for any sort of combo. It takes a horde otherwise relatively useless critters to significantly improve Doran as a clock anyway.

Critters:
Tarmogoyf
Doran, The Seige Tower
Gaddok Teeg
Dark Confidant
Glowrider/Mangara of Koronder/Hypnotic Specter/Nimble Mongoose...

Control/Disruption
Thoughtseize
Duress
Pernicious Deed
Vindicate
Krosan Grip

The combo side of things isn't really that bad, but it seems like a bit of a stretch to run it with black/white/green.


I am glad to see this list getting some testing. Gaddock is not needed in the main board, he is a great SB card. The walkers and Onithopters are nice, I really don't like dead cards though, if Doran Gets killed or Exterpated what do you do. I think Doran's real roll is just to be a 5/5 beater you can drop on turn 3. Keep testing though and lnk what ya think.

Thank you For repeating what I said...

Gaddok Teeg will be a board card in this deck. He stops Damnation/Wrath, FTK and Combo/ Control cards like ETW, Belcher, and FOF. Other than that he is a 2/2 for :g::w: . You can do so much better in that slot.

[DURESSyou92]

so you guys are saying take out he walkers and the ornihpoters and put in more beaters

which ones?

[TheDrunkDwarf]

Wow I'm glad I found this thread...I have been testing a very similar deck on mws for awhile now. It started as homebrew but I guess people have been working on roughly the same thing for a bit now...o well :)

Anyways, I never used thopters or walkers, they both are useless without doran...maybe I just dont understand why they are run. IMO, this deck works because it combines great cross-color disruption with the most efficient beaters.

Watchwolf - While wolf has zero synergy with doran, he is still a 3/3 beater for 2 mana and follows the theme of the deck. (Goyf, Doran, and Wolf make a pretty impressive ground force for very little mana)

Descendant of Kiyomaro - OK, so the double while mana does hurt, maybe too much to run him. However, I have had great success with this guy (running 2 or 3). My build opts for more discard and less mana disruption, and the descendant is almost always a 3/5 once he hits the board. The lifegain combine with a huge 5 toughness makes him a headache for alot of aggro decks. Lastly, he has great synergy with Doran, turning him into a 5/5, semi-lifelink for 3 mana.

Birds of Paradise - A must have 4 of IMO. He fixes mana, accelerates (allows for turn 2 Doran) and can fly over and ping for 1 with a Doran in play.

Oblivion Ring - Honestly, I havn't found deed to be very useful. Maybe I'm not drawing it enough, maybe it just doesnt fit. ORing can fill in for some extra vindicates (it cant hit lands which is huge) but keep in mind it does count as an enchantment for the goyf. Still, probably not good enough to make the cut.

Dark Confidant - IMO, doesn't belong. Although my build lacks much draw, he doesnt work well with Doran (1/1 isnt too hot...). In addition, I find the deck works because yur huge, undercosted threats can swing into critters - you dont need much removal to get damage through. This makes bob alot worse, because he has trouble getting damage through all by himself.

Gaddok Teeg - Must be in SB... hes too narrow and not large enough for the MD

Thats about all my thoughts for critters i guess. Just for reference my battery of removal/disruption looks something like this:

4 Gerrard's Verdict
4 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
4 Vindicate
3-4 StP

Thoughts?

[Wallace]

Ok there has been a lot of discussion about Doran, how to play him, what creature work well with him and what type of deck he belongs in. I have put together a great B/W/G Zoo list that combines several low cc beaters with the power of Duress and Thoughtseize. This list plays a bit like dead guy but is able to win a lot faster. It runs a shabby manabase; it can support a lot less land due to the low cc of all the creatures and the fact that it plays Aether Vial. Here is the List:

4 x Tarmogoyf
4 x Carnophage
4 x Dark Confidant
3 x Doran, the Siege Tower
3 x Spectral Lynx
1 x Treefolk Harbinger

4 x Thoughtseize
4 x Duress
4 x Swords to Plowshares
4 x Aether Vial
3 x Umezawa’s Jitte
2 x Vindicate

4 x Bayou
4 x Scrubland
2 x Savannah
4 x Windswept Heath
2 x Bloodstained Mire
2 x Swamp
1 x Forest
1 x Volrath’s Stronghold



Tarmogoyf: Do I really have to explain this one. Goyf gets big early due to the Discard in the MB, plus Fetch Lands. Nuff Said…


Dark Confidant: Its Bob people, this guy is invaluable in almost any black deck. With nothing costing more that 3 the loss of life is minimal. Bob is the only card draw in this deck and creates some good card advantage.


Doran, the Siege Tower: I just love this creature, not because he likes big butts or because he makes all of my old school walls playable. He is a HOUSE, a 5/5 creature for :w::b::g: seems good. To me he has two draw backs; one he is three colors, the other is you gain no life when he gets STP’ed. Vial makes him easier to cast and if you manage to cast him on turn three…well we can see where that is going to go.


Spectral Lynx: This slot was originallyoccupied by Anurid Brushhopper, both the Hopper and the Lynx are a bitch to kill I felt that the Lynx was a better fit. Pro Green and :b: to regenerate makes this creature a force to be dealt with. Lynx blocks green fatties all day long and lives to tell about it!! That’s right Tarmogoyf I’m talking about you!!!


Treefolk Harbinger: Harbinger is really just a 4th copy of Doran or a fetch land. A 0/3 is really not something to be proud of unless Doran is on the Table making him a 3/3.


Carnophage: This slot is up for grabs, I really like the phage but he is really underperforming as a beater. Skyshroud Elite will probably be occupying this slot very soon .

Thoughtseize & Duress: Move over Duress and Therapy you have theses a no spell in town, its Thoughtseize. I really can’t wait to abuse this card in legacy. :b: and two life to make target player discard a non-land card, ok! Throw in the old school duress and we have the ability to pick apart any hand.



Aether Vial: With 19 creatures in this deck Vial is a great fit. You can drop it early and let Vial do its thing while you still card your Duress’s & Thoughtseize’s. Vial works great with the Jitte too, drop my dude with Vial, equip Jitte, go!


Swords to Plowshares: The staple removal spell for any white deck. Playing 4 makes it even better, clears the way for you dudes to get it there.


Umezawa’s Jitte: its Jitte people, I’ve already said too much!


Vindicate: Vindicate is the do it all removal spell, got a land that is being a bitch, how about an enchantment that is causing you problems or a creature that is in the way. Who ya gonna call, Vindicate that’s who!!


Mana Base: The land count in this deck is 20, six Fetch Lands help get the three colors you need. The first build of this deck included wasteland, I found it to be sub par in this deck.

[adrieng]

I think your deck has a lot of potential.
I like all in your list but 4 carnophage and the three anurid brushopper.
I really think 3 jotun grunt have to be somewhere in the deck
it helps against threshold and ichorid.
I think carnophage is not playable in legacy because of threshold.
Carnophage dies to nimble mongoose and to tarmogoyf.
And your deck can t kill threshold before they creatures become bigger than yours.
If you really want a good one drop i think mother of the rune is.
It blocks and protect all your creatures and against combo it protect gaddock (which should be at least a three of in sb).
So you have to play creatures that can trade at least with theirs.
Jotun grunt can...
Maybe quirion dryad can be tested.
An other option i think is unearth.
I think this card has a lot of potential in this kinda of deck.
It can reanimate all your creatures for one mana .
But i dont think i ll play it as four of maybe a three of or two of.
(you don t want to see it at the beginning of the game).
Good luck!!

[Barook]

The deck looks decent, except for Carnophage. You could run Isamaru or Skyshroud Elite instead.

@adrieng: I don't think that Jotun Grunt belongs to the deck. It just weakens your Tarmogoyf and doesn't do much against Ichorid.

[Wallace]

The deck looks decent, except for Carnophage. You could run Isamaru or Skyshroud Elite instead.

@adrieng: I don't think that Jotun Grunt belongs to the deck. It just weakens your Tarmogoyf and doesn't do much against Ichorid.


Totall agree, Grunt does not belong in this deck. I am looking for another creature to replace the Phage's. Isumaru is a no, same a phage 2/2 for one mana, I would rather have the phage because it is easier to cast. Elite is worth looking into though, 2/3 for 1 is ntb. The Brushhopper is being replaced with Spectral Lynx, I know that Doran makes it a 1/1 but the Pro Green and Regeneration is hard to pass up.

[adrieng]

Why jotun grunt doesn t belong into this deck???
Looking at the tier one decks
against threshold jotun grunt>anurid
against breakfast same
against loam decks same
against ichorid same
against any deck playing green with tarmogoyf same
against tog same
against fish same
against standsill same

Now decks where he does the same things
against teps ( i mean a three casting cost creature is really slow...)
against belcher
against aluren

where he is worse
faeris stompy
stax decks like(and sometimes he can protect you from wasteland lock)
goblin

but you can still continue to think jotun grunt doesnt belong in this deck that s your choice....

[Wallace]

Why jotun grunt doesn t belong into this deck???


I am not questioning the effectiveness of Grunt, he is a great dude. I will do some testing with him, but I really need a creature that is going to stick around for more than 3 turns. I really don't like to include Goyf and Grunt in the same deck either. Grunt really limits the size of my Goyf's and are not very reliable early game.

[Anarky87]

Has Wasteland been performing well for you? It seems that when I don't have it backed by Vindicate/Sinkhole/Stifle, it's just a tempo sink for me. If you cut those out, you might be able to smooth your manabase out some with a few basics.

[Barook]

against breakfast same
against ichorid same

Both decks can win before Grunt can do anything. Especially against Breakfast, it does absolutely nothing because they can just combo out before your Grunt can do any damage to their yard.

[Shriekmaw]

The only cards I don't really like in the deck are Carnophage and Aether Vial. I'm not sure why Vial is needed in a deck list this. I would rather run another creature or removal.

Try something like this:

-1 Treefolk Harbinger
-4 Aether Vial
-4 Carnophage
+1 Vindicate
+3 Smother/Ghastly Demise
+1 Land
+4 Nimble Mongoose

Just a thought, let me know what you think?

[sammiel]

i agree with nickrit, vial only works in decks that either do other things with their land (goblins), are curved very well (goblins), or have alot of creatures at the same CC (slivers, weird builds of SUI Black).

More threats would be better and I think the goose is a good one, gives you a good answer to lackey.

[rufus]

Try something like this:

-1 Treefolk Harbinger
-4 Aether Vial
-4 Carnophage
+1 Vindicate
+3 Smother/Ghastly Demise
+1 Land
+4 Nimble Mongoose
Just a thought, let me know what you think?

I agree regarding the vial.

I don't see why you dislike the Harbinger. The ability to tutor for forest duals seems really nice. I was looking a the deck and thinking:
+3 Harbinger
+1 Strange Inversion
And maybe
+1 Rootgrapple

[Puzzle]

Harbringer is worthless without Doran (who can get sworded / smothered / countered, etc). Don't play bad cards because they interact with good ones, unless they win the game. And tutoring for lands is not worth wasting one card to not even put it into your hand.
You probably realize that as you're playing only one.
Carnophage offers nothing more than Isamaru (more on that below) : you're playing Stronghold in a mana-demanding deck just to return a 2/2 on top of your library, it's meh.

Mom provides evasion on top of protection and it fits the curve very well. It is nasty to both Threshold and Gobs, as well as other randomness. I definitely think it belongs in there.
The Lackey aspect of Gobs shouldn't be the main focus : you may lose to a turn 2 SGC but it doesn't happen so often. Isamaru and Swords answer it and this deck's creatures are so much bigger than gobs that I have confidence in the matchup. If you're worried, just pack Plagues in the side.

I like the Lynx too but it is the most open slot to discussion in my list.

Given the low curve, I think Aether Vial is not so good as it can be but it fixes mana well, so it could be worth testing. Another problem, though, is that they take slots : if they take land slots, you open yourself even more to gobs's land disruption ; if they take business slots, you lose threat density.
I've also ended up with 4 Vindicates, on which I count to kill Tarmogoyf or whatever nastiness that may pop up.

I've got Gaddock Teeg over Duress, which is in the side, because it works as a threat.
Between Isamaru, Doran and Gaddock (3 of each), I've also ended up including Okina, Eiganjo, Karakas and *maybe* Shizo.

[Maveric78f]

Harbringer is worthless without Doran (who can get sworded / smothered / countered, etc). Don't play bad cards because they interact with good ones, unless they win the game. And tutoring for lands is not worth wasting one card to not even put it into your hand.

Harbinger is simply better than Doran, it fetches itself, Doran, mana fixes, and even removal if you are smart enough to play Crib Swap or Nameless Inversion (which is also combo with Doran, as it works as a -3/-3). You also can have a special tech against slivers with Shields of Velis Vel*1 (or mirror entity) in SB (but it's poor I know).

According to me Harbinger is THE reason to play Doran.

Edit : And I forgot, it can just work as a shuffer if you play top (you can choose to search or not, that is to say to shuffle or not). It is also a good blocker of lackey, mishra, isamaru, confidant, meddling mage, ...).

[Puzzle]

Harbinger is simply better than Doran, it fetches itself, Doran, mana fixes, and even removal if you are smart enough to play Crib Swap or Nameless Inversion (which is also combo with Doran, as it works as a -3/-3). You also can have a special tech against slivers with Shields of Velis Vel*1 (or mirror entity) in SB (but it's poor I know).

According to me Harbinger is THE reason to play Doran.

Edit : And I forgot, it can just work as a shuffer if you play top (you can choose to search or not, that is to say to shuffle or not). It is also a good blocker of lackey, mishra, isamaru, confidant, meddling mage, ...).The Harbringer "special tech" costs 2 cards : the card you fetch is only put on top of your library. If using two cards to get rid of one creature was any good, I'd rather use Contagion anyway.

Using Wall of Wood in aggro is not the right call, even if it allows you to put a Doran or average removal on top of your library. Neither is using SDT for that matter.

For God's sake, people in this thread are even talking about using a 5-mana Stone Rain / Disenchant, at sorcery speed, in freaking Legacy just to convince others that the Treefolk Harbringer is good. Doesn't that point to something wrong ?

[Maveric78f]

It's not a wall. It's faster a 3/3 than a mongoose would be.

It's very rare to be able fetch for any instant board removal, a big guy or a biland. Even if it's not directly in hand, it's really huge. It's not card advantage, it's card quality first of all.

[Maveric78f]

By the way the removals are instant.

[TheDrunkDwarf]

You run Doran because he's a 5/5 for 3 mana that can synergize with other efficient beaters (Birds, Goyf, Descedent of Kiyomaro, etc).

You don't run Doran because it suddenly turns all the dead threats in your deck into non-dead threats.

Thats just my humble opinion. Basing your entire deck around a very removable creature in legacy doesn't make sense.

Doran should help pull your deck...not carry the whole thing.

[Wallace]

You run Doran because he's a 5/5 for 3 mana that can synergize with other efficient beaters (Birds, Goyf, Descedent of Kiyomaro, etc).

You don't run Doran because it suddenly turns all the dead threats in your deck into non-dead threats.

Thats just my humble opinion. Basing your entire deck around a very removable creature in legacy doesn't make sense.

Doran should help pull your deck...not carry the whole thing.

Thank you Dwarf, I have said this exsact thing in 4 diffrent threads now. Doran is a beater, he is a 5/5 creature for 3 mana. I do admit it would be fun to swing with all those 0/3 or 0/2 creatures, but not in legacy. The Harbinger is sweet with or without Doran, it fetches a Bayou, Savannah, forest, or Doran. Its a one of right now and may get bumped to a 2 of when I drop the Carophages.

[Maveric78f]

You run Doran because he's a 5/5 for 3 mana that can synergize with other efficient beaters (Birds, Goyf, Descedent of Kiyomaro, etc).

You don't run Doran because it suddenly turns all the dead threats in your deck into non-dead threats.

Thats just my humble opinion. Basing your entire deck around a very removable creature in legacy doesn't make sense.

Doran should help pull your deck...not carry the whole thing.

A legendary 3-color creature with no evasion is more often useless than a 1CC creature that fetches everything you might need that can block and can eventually become a beater. You might want a full aggro deck and deny such cards like harbinger because it's not a beater by itself, but it's not legacy neither.

[Puzzle]

A legendary 3-color creature with no evasion is more often useless than a 1CC creature that fetches everything you might need that can block and can eventually become a beater. You might want a full aggro deck and deny such cards like harbinger because it's not a beater by itself, but it's not legacy neither.What about a 3/4 to 4/5 for 2-mana with no evasion and even a slight weakness to graveyard hate ? Is it also inferior to Treefolk Harbringer ?

[nastynate]

Wow this looks very similar to a deck I've been tinkering with, though mine is a bit more disruptive and bit less aggressive. Just for reference...

Threats
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Hidden Gibbons
3 Spectral Lynx

The threat count is low compared to Sacearuse's list, but it certainly has quality; umezawa's jitte helps to speed up the clock. I personally find that gibbons are almost always a 4/4 for 1, but in match-ups where they aren't useful they get boarded out.

Disruption
4 Root Maze
4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize

I have a more robust disruption base, with root maze and cabal therapy in addition to duress and thoughtseize. Therapy is also handy for ridding myself of dark confidants that have become too dangerous to my life total.

Utility
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Pithing Needle
3 Umezawa's Jitte

Because I'm running root maze, pithing needle becomes much more user friendly for hitting fetch-lands. Swords is just too good not to run, and jitte is...well jitte.

Mana
4 Land grant
4 Scrubland
4 Bayou
4 Wasteland
3 Savannah
3 Vesuva

Land grant helps to replace the fetches I'm not running, but I usually try to strip counters away first with a duress/therapy/thoughtseize before using it. Vesuva can easily become extra wastes, copies of duals, or (on rare occasions) spot removal for legendary lands. I have yet to experience serious problems with my mana base, and if necessary I'll hit wasteland with a pithing needle; I can get by using mine for mana.

Side-Board
3 Krosan Grip
3 Vindicate
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Yixlid Jailor
3 Kataki, War's Wage

Grip and Vindicate are both solid side-board cards with a great deal of utility. Teeg is still experimental (but great against EE, Belcher, Empty the Warrens, Force of Will, and Wrath), while jailer and Kataki are metagame dependent.

I haven't tried Doran out yet, but I'm leery of running any 3CC threats given the fact that I already run confidant and thoughtseize, and he makes my lynx and confidants less useful as beaters. I'll certainly have to give him some consideration though; an on-color 5/5 for 3 mana isn't too shabby.

I also have to agree with those who have voiced their dislike of running goyf and grunts together in the same deck. The last thing I want to do is drop a grunt and watch my tarmogoyf wither away, only to lose the grunt a couple turns later.

[TheDrunkDwarf]

Hmm...not sure about the therapies with the low threat count here. I'd try something like this for discard:

4 Duress
3 Thoughtseize
3 Gerrard's Verdict

The lifegain on verdict also helps offset bob and thoughtsieze

[nastynate]

Hmm...not sure about the therapies with the low threat count here. I'd try something like this for discard:

4 Duress
3 Thoughtseize
3 Gerrard's Verdict

The lifegain on verdict also helps offset bob and thoughtsieze

If I was really interested in more lifegain (I do run jitte), I'd run loxodon or necravolver before I ran verdict. I'd much rather have lifegain that actually furthers my gameplan (disrupt hand, impede mana development, and finish with beats).

Therapy isn't perfect, but I'm not playing it for the flashback. Think of the flashback more as an emergency back-up. It's only going to be flashed back IF my confidants pose more threat than benefit, or combo match-ups where the extra disruption can be a godsend.

Other possibilities include Hymn, Augur of Skulls, Smallpox, or Smother, but I haven't had the chance to test them yet. Smallpox seems promising, and plays to both the discard and LD aspects of the deck, plus it can kill opposing threats, and off confidants that have lost their usefulness.

How long do you really a need a confidant for to gain significant card advantage? 2-5 turns is about all that I want them for normally. Playing life-gain allows you keep them on the board for longer, but I'd rather play disruption or threats at that point and seal the deal, than run cards just to keep drawing more cards. If I expected to see more burn that might be a different story, but until then, I'm not a fan of verdict.

But to get back to the OP and the originally proposed idea, does Doran actually even deserve consideration in a BGW deck configuration? I'm not seeing anything I'd cut in favor of him. Maybe he's just not good enough.

[DURESSyou92]

I agree with you man

I really liked confidant but i guess there is no need for him if your not using the :0: beaters (just a faster way to get Doran). Also i dont like oblivion ring or deed (specially with teeg) is there somthing else that can be in that slot. Please post what your SB is.

[Wallace]

So here is the list I plan on testing first. I have taken all of the feedback and suggestions everyone has had and built this:

4 x Tarmogoyf
4 x Nimble Mongoose
4 x Dark Confidant
3 x Doran, the Siege Tower
3 x Spectral Lynx
1 x Treefolk Harbinger

4 x Thoughtseize
4 x Duress
4 x Swords to Plowshares
3 x Umezawa’s Jitte
3 x Vindicate
2 x Gastly Demise
1 x Krosan Grip

4 x Bayou
4 x Scrubland
2 x Savannah
4 x Windswept Heath
2 x Bloodstained Mire
2 x Swamp
1 x Forest
1 x Volrath’s Stronghold

Side Board:
4 x Extirpate
4 x Engineered Plague
3 x Withered Wretch
2 x Krosan Grip
2 x Chains of Mephistopheles

[TheCramp]

How has getting to threshold been treating you? I would think that skyshroud elite would be able to put more pressure on in the early game, what with out the cantrips. Likewise for Demise.

[Wallace]

Between the Fetch lands, Discard Spells, and stuff getting countered it has not been to difficult getting threshold.

[ebbitten]

I believe if your mongeese are toting a jitte that your breaking some rules lol

[Maveric78f]

This is crazy not to play treefolk harbinger*4. It's your serum visions and your nimble mongoose at the same time. And it can even be more:
- it answers a first turn lackey efficiently
- it can fetch your library for an universal removal (Rootgrapple or Nameless Inversion or Crib Swap)
- it fixes color-base

The fetch trigger is never useless. Let's do it algorithm:
If (you are developing yourself) {
...If (you need mana) {
......Fetch for a land;
...} else if (you need beaters) {
......Fetch for your favorite beater: Doran;
...} else {
......Play clever (it happens that I fetch for a second Doran, just to be removal proof);
...}
} else if (you need a solution) {
...Fetch the most adapted one;
} else {
...Play clever;
}

With top it's even better as you can draw instantly the card you've fetched for and you can decide to fetch or not to, that is to say to shuffle or not to. You can even find nothing and just shuffle in case that you are looking for a specific card (STP to save your life against burn for instance, or jitte against gob).

@Nastynate, your deck looks very insteresting but it's in a completely different approach. By the way, I would still play 1 basic forest, in order to be able to steel some games aven against magus of the moon thanks to your green beaters starting with tarmogoyf. I'm not sure you need that many discard outlets (rootmaze is also a very good 1st turn against combo) and I would maybe complete the slots to 4 for every creature. I'm not convinced by your SB neither, in particular kataki.

[Wallace]

This is crazy not to play treefolk harbinger*4. It's your serum visions and your nimble mongoose at the same time. And it can even be more:


The Harbinger is nice and I may find a spot for a 2nd one. He puts the card on top of your libary, I really don't see myself needing more than 2 harbingers. I have Fetch lands to get the mana I need and Bob will draw get me most of the cards I need.

[nastynate]

@Nastynate, your deck looks very insteresting but it's in a completely different approach. By the way, I would still play 1 basic forest, in order to be able to steel some games aven against magus of the moon thanks to your green beaters starting with tarmogoyf. I'm not sure you need that many discard outlets (rootmaze is also a very good 1st turn against combo) and I would maybe complete the slots to 4 for every creature. I'm not convinced by your SB neither, in particular kataki.

I don't want to derail this thread anymore than I already have (sorry bout that), so I'll just make this parting response.

My deck only bears superficial similarity to the OP's deck (colors and a few common no-brainers). A basic land or two should definitely be in there, so I don't lose strait-up to magus of the moon. I have also been pleased with 10 discard spells and 14 creatures. Kataki sux, except that it dismantles affinity, one of the few aggro decks still present in the metagame, and this deck gets whupped badly by ravager affinity.

Feel free to PM me any side-board suggestions you might have.

Now back to your regularly scheduled programming.

[Balu]

Hi.

First of all, please excuse my terrible English :-).

This is my first Thread here at the Source an I really like this forum. I found 100 interresting and unortodox ideas in deckbuilding and inspiration.

I want to introduce/describe my actual Deck. I really loved to play 'The Rock' in old Extendet and tried to play it with some changes in Legacy. White was splashed by many players for Swords and Hierarch and so did I.
My actual idea was to play Glittering Wish, because in the constellation GBw are many mighty cards that would justify it... in my opinion.
The possibility to play Pernicious Deed out of the Sideboard was really temptingly.

Unfortunately I had a finishing Problem. The old school choices as Baloth, Spiritmonger and so are cool, but slow (and I ever denied to play Gofys. Everybody in the format should play Gofy, but I simply hate this card :tongue: ... and they are against all ideals of the Rock.dec :laugh: ).
But then I found Doran, the Siege Tower and he was amazing in a three color Deck. A fried of mine said I sould try Treefolk Harbinger in combination and as I tested it, I liked him more and more.
He stabilise the three colour mana base and searches for the treefolk legend... and he makes evil beatdown in combination.

Ok, first of all, my actual build:

3 Savannah
3 Bayou
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Volrath's Stronghold
6 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains

4 Birds of Paradise
4 Treefolk Harbinger
2 Doran, the siege tower
3 Ohran Viper
3 Loxodon Hierarch
4 Eternal Witness

4 Glittering Wish
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed

Manabase:
22 Lands seemed the right number. The deck needs a lot of mana when you try to use the wish. 2 Strongholds because in certain matchups you want one for recurrsion, but they are legendary. 3 seemed to much for me and it pissed me on, if I drawed more than one.

4 Birds of Paradise
On the first look you will say: "Why play 4 Birds? The Deck needs not such an acceleration. They not confit with the deed. Why not play Tribe-Elders?"
Right. But they make mana for free and are useful in every part of the play. First the speed you up, give more possibilities in the early game (Harbirbinger and Discard/Removal without timeloss) and stabilise your play. Later they are atractive targets for Therapy-flashbacks, swings for 1 (with Doran) or blocks the Gofy.

4 Treefolk Harbringer
4 of them? Yes. They are great. Mention that they search lands or our Doran. A goldfish play could be: Land/Harbinger (search for Harbinger), next Turn Land/Harbinger (search for Doran), next Turn Land, Doran, swing for 6, next Turn swing for 11... while you play Discard and Removal. I love this card.
Although he is 0/3 for 1 Mana and blocks the evil Lackey.

2 Doran, the siege tower
A big, ugly beater. He makes your opponent confused, swings for 5, blocks (and kills) nearly everything. The only reason I don't play the full playset is that he is a legend. But he can be tutored by our Harbringers. 3 Mana, the not-trampeling Phyrexian Negator in our Deck without Drawback. UGW should be no problem to carst because our massive mana-fix.

3 Ohran Viper
Why the viper? First I played with -the really good- Wall of Blossoms but now we've got an 0/3 Lackey blocker for 1 Mana and the wall seemed in combination with Doran as too defensive (can't attack). I would marry the wall if she was no defender and could swing for 4... I thougt about Dark Confidant, but i decidet to play the UNDERPLAYED Viper.
Viper draws cards AND kills Gofy, Psychatog, Shades and some more Folks. Of course she can be bolted, swordet (or whatever), but the same is true for the confident. The Viper attacks for 3 with Doran, blocks good and can be played 2 Turn with Birds.

3 Loxodon Hierarch
He is so good. Gives live, beats and makes tricks. 3 main, 1 SB.

4 Eternal Witness
Yes, 4 of them. She is the queen of the deck. I don't play Living Wish, so she can't be tutored and she is really, really important, so I decidet to play the full playset.

4 Glittering Wish
Searching for Finishers (Teneb, the harvester), tools (Vindicate) and funstuff (Pernicious Deed :cool: ), maybe 3 are more effective, but I want to have the wish in every game.

4 Swords to Plowshares
Some people say, the best removal in our Format... I agree

3 Duress + 4 Cabal Therapy
"Rock Standart" and an effictive discard-engine. Maybe the new Thoughtseize would be a better choice, but in my opinion the card is hipped a bit too much.

3 Pernicious Deed
The Allrounder. 3 main, 1 for the Wish.


Lets take a look to the sideboard (I try a lot and this might be not the final version):

1 Teneb, the Harvester --- Finisher. Evasion and perfect fitting abillity
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Loxodon Hierarch
1 Crime / Punishment --- another Deed effect. Really good vs. Warren-Tokkens
1 Vindicate
1 Castigate
2 Gaddock Teek --- maybe more?

1 Duress
3 Extirpate
2 Haunting Echoes

It was important for me to strengh my discard post Board vs. Combo and Aggrocontrol. So I test the Haunting Echoes at present as an 'alternative kill'.


I hope you can give me a lot of tipps, inspiration and critic for my deck.
Thanks.

[Wallace]

First of All, Welcome to the Source!

This deck, like the other 3 Threads that are trying to abuse Doran looks solid.

Everybody in the format should play Gofy, but I simply hate this card :tongue: ... and they are against all ideals of the Rock.dec :laugh: ).

You need to take your own advice and play Tarmogoyf, like him or not he is an amazing creature. You are going to be hearing this from a lot of people when they reply to this thread. I would run Thoughtseize over duress. If I were to play this deck I would do the following:

-3 Ohran Viper
-1 Treefolk Harbinger
-1 Eternal Witness
-3 Duress
-1 Glittering Wish

+4 Tarmogoyf
+4 Thoughtseize
+1 Doran

Check out these other thread to see what other decks are running Doran, maybe they will give you some more ideas.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7279
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7139
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7122

Yeah 200 Posts!!

[b4r0n]

Just a couple observations.


3 Savannah
3 Bayou
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Volrath's Stronghold
6 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains

You have no way of fetching out the basic Swamp. I think you either want to cut it for the 4th Bayou, or reconfigure your fetchlands so that you can fetch it.


4 Birds of Paradise
4 Treefolk Harbinger
2 Doran, the siege tower
3 Ohran Viper
3 Loxodon Hierarch
4 Eternal Witness

Like Sacearuse said, you should run Tarmogoyf. I'd cut Vipers and either a Witness or a Harbinger for a playset of Goyfs.


4 Glittering Wish
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed

Duress should be Thoughtseize, no question. It's so much better, and the life loss really won't hurt you. I'd probably even cut the 4th Therapy for the 4th Thoughtseize.


Lets take a look to the sideboard (I try a lot and this might be not the final version):

1 Teneb, the Harvester --- Finisher. Evasion and perfect fitting abillity
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Loxodon Hierarch
1 Crime / Punishment --- another Deed effect. Really good vs. Warren-Tokkens
1 Vindicate
1 Castigate
2 Gaddock Teek --- maybe more?

1 Duress
3 Extirpate
2 Haunting Echoes


I think Harmonic Sliver and Vindicate are redundant, so I'd cut the Sliver. Same with Deed and Crime/Punishment. I'd probably drop the Deed. Also, with such an emphasis on Doran, I'd think you'd want to run one in the board to Wish for. Extirpate and Haunting Echoes seem redundant, so you might want to think about replacing one or the other (probably Echoes).

[BreathWeapon]

I play something similar to this in Extended, concentrating on cost efficient power/toughness creatures (Doran and Goyf) backed up with cost efficient utility creatures (Confidant and Teeg) discard (Thought Seize and Cabal Therapy) general removal (Vindicate, Small Pox and Umezawa's Jitte) and Glittering Wish to pull the deck together. I often find that MD Pernicious Deed is counter productive to what the deck wants to achieve, which is getting the more cost efficient creatures in the game on the board and then backing them up with Umezawa's Jitte, and often times the SB Pernicious Deed is passed over for Dueling Grounds against aggro.

Any way, now that Goblins are "dead" in this format, I think it's a mistake not to use Dark Confidant in any deck with black, and Gaddock Teeg gives discard the answer it was always looking for against combo. Mystical Enforcer is a pretty good SB finisher, fyi.

Ohran Viper actually looks pretty sweet, I may have to try that out myself.

[Balu]

Hi. Thanks for your replies to my thread.

Of course there is no significant reason NOT to run Tarmogoyf and Thoughtseize. Your progressive critics are right, so I will change it.
And of course Gofy is amazing with a lot of maindeck discard...


Check out these other thread to see what other decks are running Doran, maybe they will give you some more ideas.

Thank you.


You have no way of fetching out the basic Swamp. I think you either want to cut it for the 4th Bayou, or reconfigure your fetchlands so that you can fetch it.


Sounds logically to me. I will test it.


[I think Harmonic Sliver and Vindicate are redundant, so I'd cut the Sliver. Same with Deed and Crime/Punishment. I'd probably drop the Deed. Also, with such an emphasis on Doran, I'd think you'd want to run one in the board to Wish for. Extirpate and Haunting Echoes seem redundant, so you might want to think about replacing one or the other (probably Echoes).

You're right again.
Vindicate makes a better job than the sliver and hits nearly everything. Crime/Punishment seems the better choice, because it is much faster than the Deed and more flexible in my own movements.

At the moment I test a lot of cards for wish-abuse, as Saffi Eriksdotter, Aura Mutation, Mystic Enforcer, Grave-Shell Scarab, Nath of the Gilt-Leaf or (not laugh) Debtors' Knell, Bloodbond March, (and many more crap :tongue: )


Any way, now that Goblins are "dead" in this format, I think it's a mistake not to use Dark Confidant in any deck with black, and Gaddock Teeg gives discard the answer it was always looking for against combo. Mystical Enforcer is a pretty good SB finisher, fyi.

Thanks, I will test increasingly the Confidant in the next days.
Goblins should be dead and the meta shifted, but in -my personal meta- there are actual many aggroplayers. But of course this is not representative for the format...

[Cavius The Great]

Why no Doran in the SB as a wish target? you're only running 2 MDed maybe a sideboard slot would be in order.

[Balu]

I really have to excuse myself.

The sideboard that I posted was more a summary of possible cards (some kind of brainstorming) than a play-strongly Board / final Version.
So please forgett my first posted Sideboard, it was just an example.

I test many cards as Wishtargets at the moment (there are more than 20 that I would really like to play), and you are right, another Doran fits well here.

Thanks for reply.

EDIT:
What about - 1-2 Forest, + 1-2 Nantuko Monastery as Post-Deed-Tech?

[DURESSyou92]

does any one have any sb ideas?

[Wallace]

does any one have any sb ideas?

Its hard to post a Sb for any deck due to the fact that SB's should be molded to the meta you play in. If I were playing this deck in the Current Syracuse Meta:

3 x E. Plague
3 x Krosan Grip
3 x Smother
4 x Extirpate
2 x Eyes of the Wisent

[J.V.]

This is something I've been working on to compete in the current thresh heavy meta. It basically started with the shells of truffle shuffle and deadguy ale and has developed into this:

Lands:22
4 Wasteland
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
4 Bayou
4 Scrubland
2 Mishra's Factory
2 Swamp

Creatures:14
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Doran, The Seize Tower

Noncreature Spells:24
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Dark Ritual
3 Vindicate
3 Smother
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard:15
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle
2 Extirpate

H2H:
I haven't done enough testing to post results, they will be added when more testing has occurred.

[Team-Hero]

I like the deck. The only change I would make in the deck is changing the Dark Rituals into something else. The Dark Rituals will most likely be a dead card in your hand for the most part. I would also swap the Jotun Grunts to Eternal Witness.

-3 Jotun Grunt
-4 Dark Ritual
-4 Swords to Plowshares

+3 Vendetta
+4 Eternal Witness
+1 Vindicate
+3 Gerrard's Verdict

[from Cairo]

Seems a bit heavy on creature removal to me- 4 Swords, 3 Vindicate, 2 Jitte seems like plenty for the main deck. I would be tempted to use Spectral Lynx in the spot of the Smothers. Gives you another Jitte carrier, another trump to Goyf, an unblockable beast against Thresh and another non-dead spell against Combo/Landstill.

I'd think Dark Ritual would be better as Aether Vial or a 1cc guy as well; without Nantuko Shades to giant growth Ritual is a really worthless top deck in the late game- the same could be said for Vial, but at least it's something control decks don't want you to have on the table regardless of the game state.

I would probably play 2x Nantuko Monastery over Mishra's Factory as well, since First strike is pretty hawt, and with fetches, creature removal, and discard, as well as some bodies probably making their way to the GY Threshold doesn't seem that hard to achieve by the time you've played your hand out and would be wanting to use your mana to fuel a man land.

[Team-Hero]

Seems a bit heavy on creature removal to me- 4 Swords, 3 Vindicate, 2 Jitte seems like plenty for the main deck. I would be tempted to use Spectral Lynx in the spot of the Smothers. Gives you another Jitte carrier, another trump to Goyf, an unblockable beast against Thresh and another non-dead spell against Combo/Landstill.

I'd think Dark Ritual would be better as Aether Vial or a 1cc guy as well; without Nantuko Shades to giant growth Ritual is a really worthless top deck in the late game- the same could be said for Vial, but at least it's something control decks don't want you to have on the table regardless of the game state.

I would probably play 2x Nantuko Monastery over Mishra's Factory as well, since First strike is pretty hawt, and with fetches, creature removal, and discard, as well as some bodies probably making their way to the GY Threshold doesn't seem that hard to achieve by the time you've played your hand out and would be wanting to use your mana to fuel a man land.

Yes. You are right. Lynx is a very good choice right now. My only problem is Doran. Doesn't he turn the Lynx into a 1/1?

Call it a stupid idea, but wouldn't Forbiden Watchtower (1/4 UrzLeg land) be a good choice as well for Doran? I still think Nantuko Monst is better because of the first strike.

But then again, now that I think about it, if we're going to go the Doran strategy, might as well add Yotian Soldier to the deck.

[Media314r8]

has anyone thought of using thorn of amethyst in the main and removing all the discard spells? Thorn is generally more helpful against combo, and slows down thresh alot as all their cantrips and coutners cost an extra mana. You could then run faceless butcher instead of vindicate. (3/3 + stp seems fine for 2BB) I think thorn main would open the deck up to a more aggro plan than the current 19 creatures. I also like the idea of faceless butcher a LOT more than vindicate, as you're probably playing doran on turn three (or two with birds) so it follows that vindi will probably happen after doran anyhow, and in an aggro deck, I'm fine with paying an extra colorless for a 3/3 body to go with my removal. Just my two cents.

[lolosoon]

has anyone thought of using thorn of amethyst in the main and removing all the discard spells?
Nope. Never.
Play 4 mana for a Pernicious Deed and Vindicate sucks.
Furthermore, Heavy Discard is already great vs Combo.

That's why I don't like the Green built. I do like JanValentine00's black built though I've tweaked it a bit more Control than Aggro :

BGw Doran Control
Mana:24
4 Bayou
3 Scrubland
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Windswept Heath
2 Polluted Delta
2 Swamps
4 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold//Nantuko Monastery//Savannah
4 Lotus Petal

Creatures:14
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Nantuko Shade
3 Doran, The Siege Tower

Spells:22
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
3 Duress
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Vindicate
3 Smother


Some choices :
Discard Suite
The main reason to play heavy black. Can rip apart opp's hand or makin him overextend into Deed.
4x Hymns are a staple in black control, as 3-4x Thoughtseize will becam imho. Duress > Therapies 'cause I run few threats and don't have birds/harbringer/0cc critters to sac early.
I know they're not stellar vs Goblins. If your meta if full of angry green gobbos, you should run MD Plagues or StP over Duress though.

Lotus Petal ?
They pump Goyf and smooth the 3color manabase a lot. They also help speeding the deck with Dark Ritual beeing dropped.

Smother over StP ?
I know, Sword to Plowshare is really tempting with the white splash. But sometimes, the life gain isn't worth the RFG effect, and I don't like to rely too much on a splashed colour.
The only reason I would play StP over Smother is "maybe Cephalid Breakfast is well represented" to deal with the Sutured Ghoul problem.

No Sinholes ?
Nope.
- Sometimes LD strategy just fail and doesn't bring you any tempo gain.
- If you're facing a quite shakable manabase, you're already packing Wastelands and Vindicate.
- Daze, Aether Vial, SpellSnare and low manacurve are bad news for sinkhole.
- If you don't put early pressure beside the LD, your opponent is able to recover the land loss.


I'm still testing this built, but it had a good aggro-control and combo matchup. Goblin packing Wastelands and Port is tough cause my manabase isn't that solid but with Shades, I can't afford to play too much non-black producing lands like fetchable basic forests or plains.

And remember : just play one threat at a time.
Hope you will enjoy the build.

[Eldariel]

Are you sure you don't want Tombstalker over Shade? Same CC, less overall reliance on a colour. Also, this deck looks like something that might just want to play Eternal Witness. Just something to consider. Also, while StP is in a splash-colour, it's still heads and shoulders above all other removal. Cephalid Breakfast and Goblins both still exist, regardless of claims of the contradictory, and Threshold/W occasionally plays Mystic Enforcers, which you preferably would like answers for. Oh, and Smothering manlands is rarely anything more than a hinderance, while StP puts them out of their misery for good. And StP goes better with your curve.

[lolosoon]

Are you sure you don't want Tombstalker over Shade? Same CC, less overall reliance on a colour.
I've played them in Ugb Thresh and Pox for a while. Why did I don't run them them in THIS particular deck ?!? Confidant.
I can't stack my topdeck with cantrips or Sensei's Top so the 7 life//game loss can happen from time to time.



Also, while StP is in a splash-colour, it's still heads and shoulders above all other removal. Cephalid Breakfast and Goblins both still exist, regardless of claims of the contradictory, and Threshold/W occasionally plays Mystic Enforcers, which you preferably would like answers for. Oh, and Smothering manlands is rarely anything more than a hinderance, while StP puts them out of their misery for good. And StP goes better with your curve.
Good points. Still I really have issues with getting G/W mana.
Some tweaks to the manabase have to be made though, +1 Scrubland -1 Volrath's Stronghold//Nantuko Monastery sounds a quick option.

[Cavius The Great]

Call it a stupid idea, but wouldn't Forbiden Watchtower (1/4 UrzLeg land) be a good choice as well for Doran? I still think Nantuko Monst is better because of the first strike.

Forbidden Watchtower is a 1/5 and isn't Legendary. And I recently made a list that ran 4 Watchtowers, it's like you read my mind.

[VuRkka]

First of all; my first post around here, yay!

Here's a list I've been testing:
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Bayou
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Savannah
3 Scrubland
4 Windswept Heath

4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Troll Ascetic
3 Doran, the Siege Tower

3 Pernicious Deed

3 Extirpate
3 Putrefy
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Duress
3 Glittering Wish
4 Thoughtseize

Troll Ascetics: They're slow but they kill. Even Landstill is in trouble if it can't find WoG. And it survives from Deed.

Treefolk Harbingers: I tested them too, way too slow. Goblins aren't played around here so I don't have to worry about Lackey, if I face them, StP and Elders will do the job.

Extirpates: I'm in the meta which contains lots of Control and Combo, this helps a little against them.

Gaddock Teeg: The same as above and they're wishable.

Glittering Wish: Fetches for a solution if there's a problem.

Dark Confidant: Haven't tested them yet, are they really needed?

Sideboard, for now, is under construction. But I've been using atleast:
1 Doran, the Siege Tower
4 Gaddock Teeg
1 Mortify
1 Nath of the Gilt-Leaf
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Crime/Punishment
1 Putrefy
1 Spiritmonger

So, do you ppl have any ideas for the SB or the deck itself.

[Wallace]

Yes. You are right. Lynx is a very good choice right now. My only problem is Doran. Doesn't he turn the Lynx into a 1/1?

Call it a stupid idea, but wouldn't Forbiden Watchtower (1/4 UrzLeg land) be a good choice as well for Doran? I still think Nantuko Monst is better because of the first strike.

But then again, now that I think about it, if we're going to go the Doran strategy, might as well add Yotian Soldier to the deck.

Doran does turn Lynx into a 1/1, but he is a 5/5 for 3. The watch tower is a very bad idea, it comes into play tapped in a 3 color deck. If you want to look at a deck that is built around Doran, look at the Paul Wall aggro deck. Doran, in this deck at least, is just a beater, not a combo piece.

For all the lists running Deed, what are you trying to do, screw yourself? This is an aggro deck not a control deck. Deed will hurt more than it helps. Running a combo Swords and Vindicate will be all the removal you need, no to mention the discard spells you are useing.

[VuRkka]

For all the lists running Deed, what are you trying to do, screw yourself? This is an aggro deck not a control deck. Deed will hurt more than it helps. Running a combo Swords and Vindicate will be all the removal you need, no to mention the discard spells you are useing.
I can only answer from my own experience, but in my list Doran and Goyf are the biggest bashers, they are also easily outnumbered(ETW and so on), but with Deed they are never outgunned. Also the color combination which Doran needs doesn't give a great protection for removals(there are Duress and Seizes, but sometimes they just aren't enough). That's why I haven't trusted my whole list for Doran(nor Goyf).

Hence, I'm running Ascetics, they don't die on spot removals, Kegs, EE's or Deeds. Having a one beater, which from time to time needs lots of mana(Elders), requires my list to be more controlish than aggro.

[thefreakaccident]

This is starting to look more and more like funkbrew... Funkbrew is an aggro-control deck that utilizes pernicious deed and a toolbox strategy with glittering wish, all while beating face with decent sized critters.

Dark confidant is necessary, but troll is not all that strong... in a 3 color deck, you wanna be able to cast anything at any time without fail.

troll is dubble green to cast (green is an off color), and it costs 2 to regen...

you should be running Mire/River Boa (seeing as they have thresh walk) & spectral lynx, which reads protection from Tarmogoyf and Nimble Monggose.

Gaddock Teeg is also amazing, seeing as it shuts off like 14 cards in landstill, all the wincons in combo, and fits snugly into your creature base as a 2 mana 2/2.

[Nydaeli]

You know, there are a ton of ways to build BGW aggro-control, and most of them are pretty good. As a result, though, this thread is kind of all over the place (also a result of the mass mergings that have taken place). We can keep throwing lists at each other, or we can try to analyze card choices in more detail.

There are three general approaches that I can see here.
1) Aggro, with Dark Confidant and Umezawa's Jitte
2) Aggro-board-control, with Pernicious Deed and Glittering Wish
3) Deadguy-style disruption, with Sinkhole and Hymn

Is any of these approaches intrinsically worse than the others? Does one offer better matchups against the current field? It's really easy to make GoodStuff.dec in these colors at the moment, but it might be more effective to try to focus our efforts on one of these subtypes.

[thefreakaccident]

Ok... to adress Nydaeli....

1.) the aggressive approach would have been better had goblins stayed ontop, but the fact is that UGR threshis the deck to beat and it would kick the shit out of black based aggro.

2.) Glittering wish and deed are both very strong cards, they make threshold nervous (which is our goal, right?)

3.) Deadguy could be more affective now than it ever was, seeing as everyone is running a tight/light manabase.

[Puzzle]

Ok... to adress Nydaeli....

1.) the aggressive approach would have been better had goblins stayed ontop, but the fact is that UGR threshis the deck to beat and it would kick the shit out of black based aggro.That's because black based aggro typically uses mostly creatures that are easy to burn and Threshold's creatures are bigger on a 1-for-1 basis. Doran, Goyf and Mom change that completely.
You're comparing apples with oranges.

Wish lets Threshold see the threat coming and Thresh doesn't use enough permanents for Deed to impact it all that much. There's also Stifle.

As for the LD approach, my impression is that the global meta is going towards combo and Threshold. LD won't affect combo. For that matter, neither will the aggro approach though.

My choice is to go aggro to beat anything random and (hopefully) Threshold game 1 and rely on a heavy side to beat combo (Leyline, Chant, Duress and EE ; the latter two being fine against Thresh too).

[n00bas4urus_r3x]

Deed is deffinatly a threat against Thresh. It easily anwsers all of their creatures, and nukes Counterbalance. Thresh without Counterbalance has no card advantage, and crumples to discard. I personally opt for a heavy control shell through Deed, EE and discard, then finish with 'goyfs, Troll Ascetic and Mystic Enforcer. I could share a list if anyone wants but I'd rather not add clutter if it's unwanted.

[klaus]

On page 3 the Aether Vial topic has been raised and dropped - I believe we should rethink the inclusion of Vial due to numerous positive synergies that haven't been mentioned yet:

Vial actually makes the amount of land hate you included (pun:) viable:
obviously both Vindicate and Sinkhole are only castable at sorcery speed.
This hurts your speed immensly, for mostly it is a question of "Shall I drop another critter to build up pressure or roll with the land destruction tactics?"
Well with Vial online you can do both in one turn during the early game. Plus I have made the experience that with Bob in play, I cannot cast as many cards as I bonus-draw (during the early game and early mid-game) due to the lack of mana availlability, weakening his else broken effect.

Another advantage vial offers is the fact that it actually makes the wasteland plan more efficient, since you don't rely on wasteland's mana production as much - especially in the face of Bob.
And there is more:
Vial obviously works as a mana fixer as well - especially when it comes to doran - thats why I believe Vial may replace BoP in your deck, maybe even as a 4-of: Also, you can cast it off any sort of mana and there is a significantly lower rate of artifact hate than creature hate running around.
What is more Vial gives you the opportunity to lower your land count by maybe 2 which makes up for the lowered frequency of threats by 50%!
Anyway, I don't see a raeson not to give Aether Vial another shot...

I would also suggest including either gerrard's verdict or Jitte MD - the lifeloss through Bob and Thoughseize is, when combined, truely significant.

Keep up the work,
Klaus