[Deck] Up In Flames

[Citrus-God]

I'm sure everybody remembers my Fledgling Dragon Tog style deck. I did some revision, and I really like the list so far, as of now.


// Lands 23
4 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
4 Volcanic Island
2 Badlands
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
3 Island


// Creatures 4
4 Fledgling Dragon


// Spells 34
4 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge
3 Fact or Fiction
2 Intuition
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Mana Leak
4 Ghastly Demise
4 Damnation
3 Vedalken Shackles


// Sideboard 15
4 Pyroclasm
4 Dystopia
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Thoughtseize


The sideboard is rather simple, but it is still under testing. If you noticed, I cut Merchant Scrolls from the deck just because Mana Leak is probably better, and more board-changing effects are good as well, such as Damnation and Shackles. Shackles allows you to get around Counterbalance, and Damnation cant be Needled.

I went back to the old draw engine because it allows me to outdraw Landstill, fight Threshold more properly, and AK doesnt require you to keep the board clean like Landstill does, thus finding you answers when you need it. Intuition is good for that as well.

The sideboard is stupid simple. Dystopia for Threshold, Enchantress, Fish, and the like. Pyoclasm for the Goblins, EtW, and smaller things. EE is for Counterbalance, other 2c guys, and more ways to deal with EtW due to lack of cheap cantrips in this deck to find answers.

Thoughtseize is a no-brainer. It helps me resolve my threats, get rid of threats, and just plain let's me win games with a Dragon.

Vedalken Shackles is my answer to control the board, create blockers so my flier can be a flier, and answer Extirpate. I might make a switch of these cards for 3 EEs.

[Nihil Credo]

You have viable alternatives to all your red cards: Tombstalker instead of Dragon and Engineered Plague (now killing Humans left and right) instead of Pyroclasm. Given how much stability a two-colour mana base gets you, plus the option of running some colorless lands (Academy Ruins first and foremost), I think you should strongly consider that option.

[morgan_coke]

what exactly does dragon give you that 'Tog, or Tombstalker, or Tarmogoyf wouldn't at a better cost? I can't see the reason for running him.

[kicks_422]

The coolness of having to smash face with a DRAGON.

Though, yeah, I'm on the same boat as everyone... Why red? Either you take it out or add more red cards to make it worthwhile... Fire/Ice?...

[Meekrab]

Your curve is really heavy at four, why don't you switch the Pyroclasms and Damnations, so you don't have to wait until turn infinity to kill all the goblins that will otherwise smash your face? That at least would kind of almost justify having seven mountains in your maindeck.

What matchups are you casting Damnation against, anyway? It seems like it's almost always going to be an expensive sorcery speed Edict against Thresh and any flavor of Ancient Tomb Aggro; and being able to cast a four mana spell to save your ass against Goblins isn't something I would bank on.

[Citrus-God]

Your curve is really heavy at four, why don't you switch the Pyroclasms and Damnations, so you don't have to wait until turn infinity to kill all the goblins that will otherwise smash your face? That at least would kind of almost justify having seven mountains in your maindeck.

Well... think of Dragon as a 4c Tinker for Colossus or Oath midgame. It wins the game for you in two turns after it is played.



What matchups are you casting Damnation against, anyway? It seems like it's almost always going to be an expensive sorcery speed Edict against Thresh and any flavor of Ancient Tomb Aggro; and being able to cast a four mana spell to save your ass against Goblins isn't something I would bank on.

If they play around Damnation, then Shackles, Intuition, and FoF will overwhelm them.


You have viable alternatives to all your red cards: Tombstalker instead of Dragon and Engineered Plague (now killing Humans left and right) instead of Pyroclasm. Given how much stability a two-colour mana base gets you, plus the option of running some colorless lands (Academy Ruins first and foremost), I think you should strongly consider that option.

Tombstalker wins the game for you 4 turns after it is played.


what exactly does dragon give you that 'Tog, or Tombstalker, or Tarmogoyf wouldn't at a better cost? I can't see the reason for running him.

Tog requires lots of investment and set-up, Tombstalker just plain sucks here, and Goyf allows to the deck to switch gears, but then, I would much rather play UGR Threshold.


The coolness of having to smash face with a DRAGON.

Though, yeah, I'm on the same boat as everyone... Why red? Either you take it out or add more red cards to make it worthwhile... Fire/Ice?...

Thanks for agreeing with me about the awesomeness of Dragon, Kicks_422.

I was contemplating what Red cards are worth running. But I ended up with Dragon, Pyroclasm, and probably FtK. Sadly, FtK sucks now, and Dragon and Pyroclasm is worth my 7 Red sources.

[Seregrauko]

Hi There!

First off this looks like an overall fun deck.

-But I must admit I can't see why you should be running it. rUG Thresh (Pyroclasm MD) has a great aggro-match as well.
Your combo-match seems ok if you manage to get UU on the table for Counterspells. Though I think rUG Thresh can play more aggressive and take advantage of Daze and/or Spell Snare.

I wondered about how you deal with a turn 0 Leyline?? -Not an uncommon play from a post-SB Legacy decks.

[Nihil Credo]

Tombstalker wins the game for you 4 turns after it is played.
As opposed to Dragon's three turns. This is a control deck, right? A single turn's difference is not as relevant here as it would be in aggro-control.

[Citrus-God]

As opposed to Dragon's three turns. This is a control deck, right? A single turn's difference is not as relevant here as it would be in aggro-control.

Have you played against Vintage T1T before? It draws, plays it's bomb with infinite counters back up. So yes, it is still a clock. Have you ever played Vintage BBS? It's a Monoblue Control deck with FoFs, Counters, and 4 MORPHLINGS! It is played like an Aggro-Control deck. Oscar Tan even wrote exstensively about Control decks going Aggro-Control.

And I dont really play Dragon until I have position on my opponent. That should be turn 7-10, not 5. So the clock should matter. And with 7 lands out, I dont see how it would be a 3 turn clock, as I run a metric fuckton of Red sources and fetchlands in this deck. It should be two turns at least. this is Tog, it shouldnt be going Beatdown early, unless it can get away with it.

@Seregrauku: The reasoning for this is probably a bad reason. I just needed time away from Threshold and wanted to build decks that can outplay Threshold.

[Gui]

Just wanted to say that the deck idea is awesome ^^'
Dragon ftw owns!
Imo the list is totally playable @ legacy meta... Would love to see results on that one
GL with that!

EDIT: Ah, wanted to know, why not Fire//Ice? Seens a perfect fit...

[Nihil Credo]

Have you played against Vintage T1T before? It draws, plays it's bomb with infinite counters back up. So yes, it is still a clock. Have you ever played Vintage BBS? It's a Monoblue Control deck with FoFs, Counters, and 4 MORPHLINGS! It is played like an Aggro-Control deck. Oscar Tan even wrote exstensively about Control decks going Aggro-Control.

This isn't Vintage (much less 2002 Vintage). Decks don't have twelve "I win" card in every deck, so the danger of losing the game because of waiting one more turn is small indeed - especially since you'd be casting draw spells in those two turns, or sitting on Shackles.

The exceptions to this scenario would be Sligh/Burn, which is terrible, and Goblins, where having a solid two-colour manabase (and SB Plagues) will win you far more games.


And I dont really play Dragon until I have position on my opponent. That should be turn 7-10, not 5. So the clock should matter.

Uh, that is why the clock matters less. The different between turn 12 and 13 is far smaller than that between turn 7 and 8.


And with 7 lands out, I dont see how it would be a 3 turn clock, as I run a metric fuckton of Red sources and fetchlands in this deck. It should be two turns at least.

Two turns if you're spending 4-5 mana every turn just pumping your Dragon, depending on your opponent's use of fetchlands. You run BS, AK, FoF, and Intuition - don't you have a better way to spend your mana?

[Citrus-God]

This isn't Vintage (much less 2002 Vintage). Decks don't have twelve "I win" card in every deck, so the danger of losing the game because of waiting one more turn is small indeed - especially since you'd be casting draw spells in those two turns, or sitting on Shackles.

Or you run 2 I win cards and a ton of draw. Because Vintage can do that too.

The 2nd part, I will agree with. It's slower in here, but unlike decks like Landstill, you're winning on Turn 7.


The exceptions to this scenario would be Sligh/Burn, which is terrible, and Goblins, where having a solid two-colour manabase (and SB Plagues) will win you far more games.

I'll be honest, Goblins was never much of a pain for me to handle with Pyroclasms. Plagues would be good too, of course, it doesnt answer Lackey as well. I should test them though.

As for the two color mana base, I wouldnt see a reason to with such strong and consistent land drops. I also sit on fetchlands and fetch out basics early.


Two turns if you're spending 4-5 mana every turn just pumping your Dragon, depending on your opponent's use of fetchlands. You run BS, AK, FoF, and Intuition - don't you have a better way to spend your mana?

Dont your opponents use fetchlands and such? But then, they're probably at around 16-18. Sure, I have to spend 4 mana, but I do have counter back up, with like, 4 lands untapped.

As for my mana hungry draw engine, you suppose I run 4 BS, 4 Portent, 2 Visions, 2 SDT, and 4 Predicts instead? Tapping out more often, and just Dazing my way out?

[Nihil Credo]

As for the two color mana base, I wouldnt see a reason to with such strong and consistent land drops. I also sit on fetchlands and fetch out basics early.

Well, you need BB for Damnation, and better multiple blue sources for draw spells (even if you side out Counterspell). I'm not sure you can afford to use your lands to fetch basic Mountains.


As for my mana hungry draw engine, you suppose I run 4 BS, 4 Portent, 2 Visions, 2 SDT, and 4 Predicts instead? Tapping out more often, and just Dazing my way out?

No, what I meant was that instead of throwing mana into the Dragon, you could just play your draw spells and get countermagic/removal to allow it to connect for one more turn.

[Citrus-God]

Well, you need BB for Damnation, and better multiple blue sources for draw spells (even if you side out Counterspell). I'm not sure you can afford to use your lands to fetch basic Mountains.

Well... you only need 3-5 Blue sources total. I'm sure you could.


No, what I meant was that instead of throwing mana into the Dragon, you could just play your draw spells and get countermagic/removal to allow it to connect for one more turn.

True....