[Deck] 7/10

[quentin]

Hi, this is my first post here, I just discovered this forum.

So i've been working on a legacy deck, which primary aim is at being fun. I don't suppose it can ever reach a top tier, yet it can win games almost all the meta and is quite fun to play.
The deck is some sort of hybrid between welder survival and the now out of the format extended deck known as teen titans.
I'm primarily looking at suggestions for improvements, or people pointing at my stupid choices. I hope I can get here advice from legacy specialists !

First a decklist :

// big folks
4 Sundering Titan
1 Platinum Angel

// reanimation
4 Goblin Welder
4 Animate Dead
2 Exhume

// draw + discard
3 Survival of the Fittest
3 Ideas Unbound
4 Careful Study

// alt win + discard + fodder
4 Squee, Goblin Nabob
3 Zombie Infestation

// Utility
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Burning Wish

// mana
3 Mox Diamond
4 City of Brass
4 Wasteland
2 Vault of Whispers
2 Great Furnace
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Gemstone Mine

// Sideboard
1 Exhume
1 Ideas Unbound
1 Haunting Echoes
1 Devastating Dreams
1 Hull Breach
1 Pyroclasm
1 Show and Tell
1 Reanimate
1 Sickening Dreams
2 Gaea's Blessing
4 Engineered Plague



Basically, the game plan is to get a titan out asap. There are various ways to discard him (survival, careful study, ideas unbound, infestation) and about as many to bring him back (welders, animate, exhume).
The cheap cost of those spells/engines make the titan appear generally around turns 2-4 undisrupted (turn 2 often means GG, turn 4 often means too late).
Plat is there because some decks just can't deal with him, and those are decks that'd be less troubled by titan (dredgers primarily).
Survival gives easy access to the fat if it was missing despite the draw engine, and allows for many welders to come into play even against a crontrol deck.
Squees are nice because they feed survival, infestation, and careful study / ideas undound for the non-fatty spots there may be.
Infestation gives a good alt win (plenty of smallies instead of a fatty), and is a pretty good time buyer vs goblins.
Wishes provide flexibility, allowing to go fetch an extra draw, discard or animtor. The sideboard is quite experimental, I'm just playing with stuff for now really.


Matchups (quick) :
- Threshold/Madness : the question is generally whether you can slip a titan through counters before you're fried yourself under bear/goyf beats. It's a somewhat favorable matchup.
- Loam / Lands variants : many non-primary lands + maze of ith make this matchup complex. It's ok to get titans out but they're not that useful afterwards. Primary game plan is whishing for blessing early on and echoes later on.
- bridge / dredge : those are often out by turn 3-4 and undisturbed by titan's land wreckage. However most can't deal with platinum angel, and infestation can often buy you some time.
- cephalid : similar in that your chance lies in their inability to deal with platinum angel. They get a bit more troubled by mana disruption than dredge, but those illusionists are quite cheap.
- aggro (goblins, monoB, fish, stompies etc.). The deck is not too discard sensitive, and has many ways around fish-style disruption. Goblins is the most problematic matchup due to it speed, against it infestations are often decisive, since zombies can take those piledrivers and warchiefs out. Jitte is annoying, as usual, but titans are big.
- control (landstill...) : a somewhat good matchup, due to the resilience of the deck, number of threats and number of draws.

Some trouble from sided-in leylines (hence the show and tell in SB).

So now, suggestions ? Here are the things I'm not too sure of, even though overall feedback is quite welcome :
- Bosh, Iron golem. He looks nice, but when i tried playing it I virtually never wanted him more than plat/titans.
- Mana base / Crucible. It's a bit clunky between cities, wastes, gemstones, mox diamonds and artifact lands. I've been wondering about putting chrome mox instead of moxes, and getting rid of curcibles, but the multicolor of mox is really nice with survival and all. It may look like low on lands but mostly cards you play are 1-2 mana.
- Wish / Wish targets. Alternative suggestions ?
- Anger. It's nice if you had it in your opening hand and discarded it, he makes things really faster, however when he's not it's almost always a better choice to fetch titans and not wait for him, so having him as a single seems a bit pointless. Still wondering though.
- Smallpox. Currently the deck has mostly titans/wastelands+cruci as disruption. I'm looking at some more ways to distrub the opponent, and smallpox seems to fit the game plan by disrupting mana, getting rid of a critter, having opponent discard, and allowing me to discard too (which is good in this case). Opinions ?

Thanks !

[MasterC]

I think the Lorwyn Card "Thoughtseize" would fit pretty well into this deck.

[Maveric78f]

The idea of the deck can be raised to competitive, I believe. But your build is clearly suboptimal.

The main problem you'll have to face is that extirpate on squee, planar void or leyline of the void completely ruins your strategy. However, you can find some answers to that.

Among problems of your build :
- your mana base is awful
- anger is needed
- why on earth 4 sundering titans ?

[vigilante]

The main problem you'll have to face is that extirpate on squee, planar void or leyline of the void completely ruins your strategy. However, you can find some answers to that.Extirpate targetting Squee ruins his alternate win strategy, yes, but it leaves his primary strategy (ie. reanimating a fat artifact) almost completely intact. Planar Void and Leyline can be answered (as you pointed out) via his Burning Wishes.


- your mana base is awfulThis is obviously necessary because his primary win condition is Sundering Titan.


- anger is neededOnly if he re-tools the mana base to support reliable access to Mountains. That would imply fetchlands, which would make dual lands almost mandatory to justify their inclusion (or if not duals, then at least a significant number of basic lands), which would interact poorly with Sundering Titans. Anger doesn't belong in this build.


- why on earth 4 sundering titans ?
Basically, the game plan is to get a titan out asap.


Yes, quentins proposed build has some issues, but these criticisms actually seem quite irrelevant.

[quentin]

Thanks for the feedback !


The main problem you'll have to face is that extirpate on squee, planar void or leyline of the void completely ruins your strategy. However, you can find some answers to that.

Well, there are plenty of decks in the field which rely completely on the graveyard, can do nothing against one of the mentionned threats, and still are doing pretty well. First, (almost) nobody plays those maindeck, probably the most common maindeck graveyard hate one may face is trkinket+tornod's crypt. Second, there are some options, through wishes (graveyard hate is the primary reason for the show and tell in the SB).


- your mana base is awful

Can you elaborate ? I'm sure it can be improved, I mentionned it in my post, yet I'm looking for suggestions. I don't happen to have that many mana problems while playtesting. One of the main reasons for this lack of problems is the cheap cost of most spells (those you're gonna play anyway) in the deck :
welders R
animate, exhume 1B
survival 1G+GG
careful study U
ideas unbound UU
infestation 1B
crucible 3
burning wish 1R

Only 2 cards above 2CMC, most requiring only 1 colored mana. Everything in the deck is quite cheap, and so the small land count is almost never a problem. The only 2 cards that may give issues are the 3 ideas unbound at UU, but there are 12 U producers (not counting the moxes, 15 with them), and an intensive use of survival which needs green, but this deck isn't made to abuse survival. This card is only there as a support to help reach the goal, rather than as an actual engine. The crucibles are there, in addition to the threat provided by wastes, to address longer games potential issues coming from dying gemstones or weldered artifact lands.


- anger is needed
- why on earth 4 sundering titans ?

I think the answer to those 2 questions is the same : this is not a survival deck. If you'd play 1 titan, it'd have to be found via survival. This mean you'd need survival in play.
There are many reasons why survival decks, although often beautifully crafted, have some problems winning consistently :
- You need survival to win games.
- You are over-sensitive to classic maindeck disruption (duress, counters, needles, pretty much any disruption).
- It is too slow. If you look at the time it takes to bring a titan + fetch a welder + animate the guy, it is often going to be turn 4+ before he's out. Survival has other threats, but they're even slower. By turn 4 you're either dead, or about to be so much that your guy's not gonna help, or your opponent has enough protection to get rid of him. Then you must fetch some other stuff instead and start struggling to survive, which eventually, fails.

The goal of this deck is to take a more offensive approach than survival's toolbox : you want titan out in a turn <= 3 . Why titan ? because he's the most significant threat you can get out that quickly, not as much as because of his huge body, as because he'll wreck your opponent's mana base.
This is the approach of "teen titans" decks that used to be quite good in extended :
http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=10049
http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=10158


With 4 titans in the deck, you maximize your chances to get one out quickly, more quickly than with survival anyway. There are plenty of combinations that allow you one out on turn 2 :
welder + study + titan
welder + ideas + titan
welder + infestation + titan
study + animate + titan
study + exhume + titan
The number of combinations that allow you one out on turn 3 is too many too list.

The other cards in the deck are basically there to make the deck resilient and help it survive disruption of the initial plan. Decks with lots of disruption are slower and so will give you time to implement your backup plans.

It is the same reason why anger isn't there right now : it is too slow. Anger is only useful if you have it in your opening hand (which as a one-of won't happen often). Otherwise your only plan is to fetch it via survival, and as i mentionned i tend to prefer fetching a welder/titan depending on which i miss first. Finally anger only is useful for welders, you don't really care titan attacking early, you car titan coming into play early and eating those lands.
I'm still not 100% sold on not using it, but the few games i've played with it, it was only good when in initial hand. Finally, the need for mountains sucks big time with titans and helping the mana base.

Thoughtseize : while a good general disruption card, the thing i don't like in it is that it doesn't help in the offensive game plan, as for instance smallpox would.

Thanks for your feedback !

[boris13]

Smallpox also hurts you to remember that.

[quentin]

thanks vigilante, i think you see where i'm trying to go with the deck :).
Any suggestions ? What do you think are the current's build main issues ?

[burkey_boy]

make a search of the archives for a deck called 'teen titans' pretty much the same thing...

[Maveric78f]

Once titan is in play, there is absolutely no need to have lands... You should not build your deck according to this. I'd like to develop and I wanted to do it but I really can't right now. See you soon.

[quentin]

thanks, i did (i even pointed out teen titans earlier), but all i found was a mention of porting teen titans (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6596&highlight=teen+titans) (which was originally extended) to legacy without any build.
My build is the first try i've seen of porting this deck to legacy (i'd love to see others though).
It brings to the extended version some extra juice with survival, infestations, squee and some more options via burning wish.

[Jaynel]

Once titan is in play, there is absolutely no need to have lands... You should not build your deck according to this. I'd like to develop and I wanted to do it but I really can't right now. See you soon.

I think you need a Plan B (which will probably involve lands) if your Titan eats a Swords or some other removal.

I've also been playing around with this type of deck. Here's my list:

Manabase (24):
4 Shivan Reef
4 Underground River
4 City of Brass
4 Seat of the Synod
2 Great Furnace
3 Vault of Whispers
3 Chrome Mox

Reanimators (10):
4 Goblin Welder
4 Exhume
2 Reanimate

Robots (8):
4 Sundering Titan
2 Triskelion
1 Mindslaver
1 Possessed Portal

Setup and Disruption (18):
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Careful Study
4 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Intuition
4 Thoughtseize


SB:
3 Chain of Vapor
2 Threads of Disloyalty
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Tormod's Crypt

I'd like to fit in more discard, but I don't know where to look to cut stuff. SDT has been kinda underwhelming with a grand total of 0 shuffle effects, and I think something like Strategic Planning would be kinda hot over it.

[quentin]

thanks Jaynel, that's an interesting (if more classical) build.

What i like more in your build :
- it's probably more consistent in terms of mana, with one more land, chrome instead of diamond, and only 3 colors. It does need this extra consistency with the many more 3CC spells.
- its draw engine looks more consistent with thirst and intuition.
- I like the triskelions in replacement of the infestations for hordes management. They're also a decent threat and are almost hardcastable.

What I like less in your build :
- it is slower. You have way less options to get some fat live by turn 2-3, due to lack of a discard engine with CC < 3. By turn 3 you have more options but they need a welder out, or you'll need to wait for turn 4. Versus combo/goblins, turn 4 is too late. Versus control, it's your turn 3 draw/discard that's likely to get countered, and your welder is likely to have received the first killing shot. Did you try to fit in ancient tomb / city of traitors ? It's much more relevant in your build with the TFK and intuitions, and would allow for turn 2 draws/discards.
- You say I need a plan B (which i do in the form of infestation, I even have plan C with wished echoes, which won me many games), but I do not see yours. Without wishes, I don't see how you can win vs a tornod's crypt out or a sideboarded in leyline.
- It seems less resilient, in that the number of threads that need countering / delaing with is smaller. In my build there are 18 counter-or-lose cards for a control player (4 welders, 6 animates, 3 survival, 3 infestation, 2 crucibles) vs 10 in yours (4 welders + 6 animate)
- SDT -> :-/
- You should definitely play platinum vs portal/slaver i think. It's just won me so many games by just being out that i wonder if i should include a 2d. Also portal/slaver can't be animated, which mean they need a welder, and welders really die quickly. Without survival to fetch more, it's just unreliable to count on them.
- Reanimate : i gave my opinion on this earlier. OK, it's faster yes. But losing 8 lives to get your titan out, while totally acceptable vs control, will get you killed next turn by those goblins/bears/mongooses that were already out.

[quentin]

I've been experimenting a bit with another version that happens to be fun to play too. It's a little more agressive, a little less sensitive to graveyard hate and less relying on ability to discard through usage of show and tell.

// fat
4 Sundering Titan
2 Platinum Angel
2 Triskelion

// animation
4 Goblin Welder
4 Animate Dead
2 Exhume
3 Show and Tell

// mana
4 City of Brass
4 Wasteland
4 Vault of Whispers
2 Great Furnace
3 Seat of the Synod
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Mox Diamond

// disruption
4 Smallpox
2 Crucible of Worlds

// draw / discard / utility
3 Burning Wish
4 Careful Study
2 Thirst for Knowledge

This one loses a bit of consistency but gains more punch power with show and tells and disruption via smallpox. I'm gonna make some tests with this version to see how it compares with the other versus standard matchups.
Feedback welcome.

[Waikiki]

// Lands
3 [AN] City of Brass
4 [MR] Vault of Whispers
4 [9E] Underground River
2 [9E] Shivan Reef
4 [MR] Seat of the Synod
2 [MR] Great Furnace

// Creatures
4 [JU] Hapless Researcher
4 [UL] Goblin Welder
4 [DS] Sundering Titan
2 [MR] Platinum Angel

// Spells
2 [MR] Chrome Mox
1 [JU] Cabal Therapy
2 [TO] Sickening Dreams
4 [US] Duress
2 [TE] Reanimate
4 [TE] Intuition
4 [US] Exhume
4 [OD] Careful Study
4 [IA] Brainstorm

This is what I've been using. Very close to the original ext 7/10. And so far it's been doing ok for me.

[quentin]

OK so i've been palying with this a bit more. The alt build I'm working with now got rid of infestations/squees/ideas unbound.
I added Triskelions just to make some tests, and they've been dazzling in a number of matchups. They get rid of piledrivers, getting one out pretty much means GG vs cephalid breakfast, they can bypass annoying maze of iths, and kill an overgrown tarmogoyf.
I switched to the TFK drawing engine, which has probably made the deck a little slower and a little more consistent at the same time.

Now reads something like:

// big folks (8)
4 Sundering Titan
2 Platinum Angel
2 Triskelion

// reanimation (10)
4 Goblin Welder
3 Animate Dead
3 Exhume

// draw + discard (12)
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Careful Study

// Utility (6)
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Burning Wish
1 Squee, goblin nabob

// mana
3 Mox Diamond
4 City of Brass
4 Wasteland
2 Vault of Whispers
2 Great Furnace
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Gemstone Mine
1 undiscovered Paradise

// Sideboard
// reanimation
1 Exhume
1 Show and Tell
1 Reanimate
// discard+draw
1 Ideas Unbound
// kill
1 Haunting Echoes
// protection
1 Last Rites
1 Hull Breach
1 Pyroclasm
1 Sickening Dreams / devastating dreams (?)
1 Decompose
1 Cranial extraction
// just too many gobs in my meta
4 Engineered Plague


Current thoughts about this build : the mana base is still a little difficult. I've added an extra land, which might be undiscovered paradise, or another if i find a better option at generating green + extra colors. I like the wastelands though, they and crucibles are winning an impressive number of games just by themselves. It's a little more difficult in aggro matchups without the infestations which are good horde hosers. Cranial extraction in the SB is awesome (life from the loam, cephalid illusionist, bridge from below, etc.). The deck is over-sensitive to chalice of the voids though, which makes faerie stompy a very bad matchup due to chalices, tormod's and trinkets.


Waikiki, I like the fact that your build runs duress, however it seems a bit sensitive to a number of cards that are quite present in the current meta :
- what's your backup plan vs tormod's crypt/leyline of the void ?
- how do you handle one/multiple mazes of ith ?
Some questions too :
Hapless researcher : i've tried them and found them quite unconvincing in many cases. Are you happy with them ?
Sickening dreams : obvisouly awesome vs goblins, what about other matchups ? with only 6 fat you don't have much to discard, what's your feedback on these ?

[vigilante]

Now that you've cut your original 'plan B' (ie. Zombie Infestation + multiple Squees) and have gone for a all-in reanimation approach via Animate Dead/Exhume/Goblin Welder, but are still running 4 colours, is there any real advantage to playing this deck over traditional Welder Survival? If you run the traditional 3 colour configuration (GRu) you'd still have access to Survival and Thirst for Knowledge, and would also gain Intuitions. Sure, Welder Survival's reliance on dual lands is a liability when it comes to Sundering Titan, but keeping in mind that UGR Thresh is probably the best deck in the format at the moment, that issue may be less of a problem now than in the past.

Using a Survival core also lets you run toolbox creatures (Eternal Witness > dead Survivals; Genesis > dead Welders; Tin Street Hooligan > Pithing Needles; [insert creature here] > Leyline of the Void, etc), something your current build doesn't really support. Rofellos will occasionally allow you to hard-cast your fat artifact creatures, and Anger will give you Welders (not to mention your fat dudes) haste. This is probably the most significant point so far -- at present, you have no way to protect your Welders from removal whatsoever, meaning they have to resolve then survive an entire turn before becoming active, a tough ask. Having them active immediately means you can get busy welding right away, which makes opposing removal just that little bit easier to stomach.

Basically, you'd be trading off the ability to go "turn 1 Careful Study, turn 2 Exhume" for the long-game stability of a dedicated Survival engine. Personally, I'll take stability over randomly powerful (but inconsistent) explosiveness any day, particularly in today's meta which is defined by aggro-control strategies (with plenty of countermagic) and fast combo decks (which don't really care about a turn 2 Sundering Titan).

[quentin]

Thanks for your feedback. I haven't really dropped the infestations idea yet, I'm just playing around for now really.

Where I agree with you : this last version definitely looses quite a bit in explosiveness. Without ideas unbound, and infestations, it looses 6 discard outless that can be used on turn 2, and allow for a relatively consistent titan turn 3 via welders or animation. This version adds 4 thirst, which allow for a turn 3 (lucky) or 4 (with animation) titan, which really definitely isn't as good.

About the traditional welder/survival approach, what i don't like with the "toolbox" approach is that it is relying completely on survival to win. Welders are useless if you didn't discard a big fat guy, and without a survival you can be sure the toolbox pieces you have in hand aren't the ones you actually need at the moment. For instance saying :
Tin Street Hooligan > Pithing Needles
is irrelevant because if needle is out, it will name survival and you won't fetch TSH.
Between duresses, counters, needles, meddling mages and running only 4 survivals, there are just too many chances that you don't see one during the game. Running 4 titans, 8 other discard outlets than survival (studies and thirsts), and running a total of 10 animation spells (not counting the wishes) makes the ability to get a titan out still quite good, and make you less dependant on a single card to win.


at present, you have no way to protect your Welders from removal whatsoever, meaning they have to resolve then survive an entire turn before becoming active, a tough ask

Yes, only I have another option than welders, in the 6 base reanimation spells + 3 wishes. And would you happen to make a survival out, you can fetch at least 1 welder per turn, which is way more difficult to get rid of than just the first one.



Basically, you'd be trading off the ability to go "turn 1 Careful Study, turn 2 Exhume" for the long-game stability of a dedicated Survival engine. Personally, I'll take stability over randomly powerful (but inconsistent) explosiveness any day, particularly in today's meta which is defined by aggro-control strategies (with plenty of countermagic) and fast combo decks (which don't really care about a turn 2 Sundering Titan).

It's not only the explosiveness, just having those animation spells + extra discard outlets means you don't rely on survival.

You mention aggro-control strategies and fast combo decks, but to me the titan option is a better one against both matchups.
Versus an aggro+counters/disruption deck, getting an keeping a survival online is a tough task. Versus a fast combo deck, survival has virtually no option to win, it can start the engine only on turn 3, and get a relevant threat/answer only on turn 4, which is usually too late.
With the animation option, you can (try to) race aggro by managing one threat through countermagic.
Also, I disagree with the mention that combo doesn't care about titan. 1 or 2 lands out means as many turns gained vs solidarity or iggypop, and that's if they can get others to replace them. Getting a platinum out vs combo also often means GG, and with 2 plus 4 survivals in the deck there are good chances you have one by turn 3-4.

This deck is more reanimator with survival support than a welder survival deck. Survival is a great addition to reanimator strategies, allowing to discard creatures, search for another one, which is the case of welders is also a reanimation spell.

As I said I haven't really ruled out the infestation option, today I've been playing a bit with the first version, replacing the 2 crucibles with a 4th wish and a life from the loam in the SB. LfTL is fun with infestation, can help if you run into mana troubles, and is a also a threat via wastelands, if not as cheap as crucible. The thing is, when I play the deck (first version), I tend to find infestation sub-par compared with the deck's other threats. But taking it out means the squees are much less relevant, and taking those out again makes ideas unbound way less broken. Maybe I'll play with last rites/sickening dreams maindeck and try and see what it gives with the LfTL option.

[vigilante]

Some things:


Welders are useless if you didn't discard a big fat guyThis point is equally valid against the Welders in your proposed build, and in addition, an identical point can be made against the other reanimation spells you run. Just sayin'.


For instance saying :
Tin Street Hooligan > Pithing Needles
is irrelevant because if needle is out, it will name survival and you won't fetch TSH.Obviously, if Survival was already in play when the opponent played a Needle, you would activate Survival in response and fetch an appropriate answer. If you've dropped an unprotected Survival with no mana open to perform this action, against an opponent where Needle is a possibility, you've simply made a play mistake. If the Needle came down before Survival, Intuitions/Thirst for Knowledge would have to suffice to find an answer, which, after sideboarding (because let's be honest, that's when you're most likely to see Needles) would include the usual TSH/Viridian Zealot, in addition to whatever other anti-hate removal you boarded in.


Between duresses, counters, needles, meddling mages and running only 4 survivals, there are just too many chances that you don't see one during the game.Welder Survival isn't RGSA, which can function almost as well without a Survival as with. This is why, as I mentioned, WS runs some number of Thirst for Knowledge and Intuition to find Survival. Sensei's Divining Top could also be used for this purpose, and has the added advantage of being Weld-able.
Also, once again, your proposed list has no more specific resilience to opposing Duresses, counters, Needles and Meddling Mages than WS does. In fact, in the case of permanent-based hate (Needles, Mages, and most significantly Tormod's Crypt/Leyline of the Void) your deck lacks the toolbox to deal with them (barring Burning Wish, which as a 3-of wouldn't be as reliable as Survival, which has an entire deck built around it).


Survival is a great addition to reanimator strategies, allowing to discard creatures, search for another one....I don't believe so. The most recent build you propose has 13 creatures in it, 4 of which are Welders (which make lousy Survival fodder). Most decks running Survival require 23-26 creatures to make it viable. I can envisage a lot of games where limitations on green mana and/or creature cards in hand would make Survival almost a dead card (or at least, a very slow engine -- slower still considering the non-hasted Welders produced if you end up having to use those as your reanimation method).


...crucibles...life from the loam...These cards seem clunky and unnecessary. They serve no role in the deck's primary game plan of reanimating something large and unpleasant. All they seem to be good for is to help you lose a little bit less slowly when you find yourself in a losing situation. If you max out on combo pieces, hopefully the increased consistency will mean that you don't need to rely on cards like Crucible and Loam for recovery purposes.



I know this is starting to sound like a plug for Welder Survival....it isn't. All I'm trying to do is remind you of the fact that once upon a time, reanimating fat artifacts was the tier 1 strategy in Legacy, and the best deck developed to achieve that goal was Welder Survival. None of the cards in your builds are newer than those in Welder Survival, so the unpleasant question you have to ask yourself is, "if this deck is better than Welder Survival was, why did everyone play Welder Survival?"

[quentin]

Thanks for making great points.


This point is equally valid against the Welders in your proposed build, and in addition, an identical point can be made against the other reanimation spells you run. Just sayin'.


Except that there are more (artifact) fat guys in my build, and other ways to discard them than survival. It's difficult to argue without a decklist to compare to, but in weldersurvival builds I've seen (this for instance http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/8547.html ) if you don't have a survival in play, you can't get your answer or the threat you want for sur in the graveyard. Most of the toolbox pieces being in one-ofs, you need to either be extremely lucky or do intuition+witness for another way to get what you need, which means slowness.


This is why, as I mentioned, WS runs some number of Thirst for Knowledge and Intuition to find Survival.

This is precisely why welder survival isn't viable in today's meta : if you don't have a survival, you'll need an intuition or a TFK to (maybe) put one into play, which means you won't activate/use it before a number of turns that will see you dead vs any kind of combo (illusionnists, tendrils, solidarity).


Also, once again, your proposed list has no more specific resilience to opposing Duresses, counters, Needles and Meddling Mages than WS does.


I think it does, in that it has multiple cards playable before turn 3 that can win you the game as opposed to survival.


In fact, in the case of permanent-based hate (Needles, Mages, and most significantly Tormod's Crypt/Leyline of the Void) your deck lacks the toolbox to deal with them (barring Burning Wish, which as a 3-of wouldn't be as reliable as Survival, which has an entire deck built around it).

Again, the goal of the deck is not to have to deal with these. If I wanted to make a control deck, I would play welder survival, with its splendid toolbox and all. The goal here is not to play control, it is not to answer the opponent's threats, it is to play aggressively, trying to get some big fat guy on the table :).


The most recent build you propose has 13 creatures in it, 4 of which are Welders (which make lousy Survival fodder).

-> squee ?


Most decks running Survival require 23-26 creatures to make it viable.

I don't think so. decks running survival run 23-26 creatures because their owners succumbed to the temptation of being theoretically able to answer all problems. The main problem is that magic games are won by creating problems for your opponent, not answering the threats your opponent plays (don't bother answering that, just provocation :p). With one squee you can fetch all your deck's creatures if need be.


I can envisage a lot of games where limitations on green mana and/or creature cards in hand would make Survival almost a dead card (or at least, a very slow engine -- slower still considering the non-hasted Welders produced if you end up having to use those as your reanimation method).

Again, survival here is not an *engine*. I almost never reuse it over and over again, except maybe facing pure control ala landstill. Survival is a way to discard fat + get welders in one card. Being able to use it just once or twice is normally enough to achieve the strategy (I realize that doesn't mean winning necessarily)


crucible, lftl. These cards seem clunky and unnecessary. They serve no role in the deck's primary game plan of reanimating something large and unpleasant. All they seem to be good for is to help you lose a little bit less slowly when you find yourself in a losing situation. If you max out on combo pieces, hopefully the increased consistency will mean that you don't need to rely on cards like Crucible and Loam for recovery purposes.

2 things :

first, they're not as much there for recovery purpose as for disrupting your opponent's land (which is the only disruption in this deck, via wastelands or titans). Still they're synergetic in that the deck has a tendency to discard many lands, either via its discard outlets, via mox diamond, via dead gemstones or via welder recursion. While the decks runs on very low mana spells (most 1 and 2), those cards are never technically "useless", with a crucible out you can discard any land without actually losing it. These + squee are there to negate the side effects of the many discard cards in the deck.

second, despite first, i still see your point in that those cards don't help the primary game plan. This is why I've been experimenting with taking crucibles out, and only using LfTL wished from the SB when it makes sense (basically, stalled games / topdeck modes where you have accessed a wasteland). LftL can also help the secondary game plan of the initial list (infestations), by providing fodder to create tokens.


I know this is starting to sound like a plug for Welder Survival....it isn't. All I'm trying to do is remind you of the fact that once upon a time, reanimating fat artifacts was the tier 1 strategy in Legacy, and the best deck developed to achieve that goal was Welder Survival. None of the cards in your builds are newer than those in Welder Survival, so the unpleasant question you have to ask yourself is, "if this deck is better than Welder Survival was, why did everyone play Welder Survival?"

First, I'm not saying this deck is "better" than WS. Being "better" is dependant on the meta and format evolutions. One deck being better than another 2 years ago doesn't mean it still is today. Also, considering the card pool in legacy and letting the johnny in you speak his mind, I'm sure you can imagine new "good" (if not "best") decks could emerge for such a format.

What I'm trying to say is that, in today's format, with decks such as illusionnist, tendrils variations, spring tide or dredge maniacs, and while it may have good chances vs the "top deck" of the format (ie threshold), old-style Welder Survival isn't fast enough vs those decks to be a deck of choice.

What I'm trying to do here is build a somewhat competitive deck out of those cards by making it faster, using the teen titans approach (be faster if less complete). I'm not there yet (I realize that) which is why I request help. You provided good feedback by pointing out that my non-infestation build, by being slower, lost its focus, however the comparison to WS doesn't help me. As you said I'm not using any new cards from recent sets, maybe that's what i'm looking for posting here, some suggestions at a gem I would have missed in recent extensions that would fit in well with this decks' goal.

Anyway, here's what I've been toying with lately (back to the more explosive build with ideas unbound, no crucibles and lftl in the SB).

// big folks (7)
4 Sundering Titan
1 Platinum Angel
2 Triskelion

// reanimation (10)
4 Goblin Welder
3 Animate Dead
3 Exhume

// draw + discard (10)
3 Survival of the Fittest
3 Ideas Unbound
4 Careful Study

// alt win + discard + fodder (7)
4 Squee, Goblin Nabob
3 Zombie Infestation

// Utility (3)
3 Burning Wish

// mana (23)
3 Mox Diamond
4 City of Brass
4 Wasteland
2 Vault of Whispers
2 Great Furnace
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Gemstone Mine

// Sideboard
1 Exhume
1 Show and Tell
1 Reanimate
1 Ideas Unbound
1 Haunting Echoes
1 Life from the loam
1 Hull Breach
1 Pyroclasm
1 Sickening Dreams / devastating dreams (?)
1 Decompose
1 Cranial extraction
4 Engineered Plague

the numbers i think can be played with :
1-2 triskelions ?
3-4 animate dead ?
3-4 survival ?
3-4 MD / 0-1 SB ideas unbound ?
2-3 infestations ?
3-4 burning wishes ?
other card suggestions ??

[quentin]

from re-reading your answers and trying to get the most out of them makes me evaluate option to leverage better survival in the deck.
Thinking about it, burning wishes serve in the deck the toolbox purpose, while there is already a potential toolbox engine in place of survival.
Do you think it is worth keeping this secondary engine, or should i rather drop the wishes and get more options for survival ? What I like with the wishes is that they serve the primary purpose of the deck through being able to reach reanimate/4th exhume, a discard outlet, in the meantime providing some good tempo vs specific decks (pyroclasm->goblins come to mind).
Also if i waas to give more importance to survival, I'm not sure what i'd include in the smaller toolbox. What i see of the usual survival toolbox maybe fitting in are genesis, maybe harmonic sliver and ...
Suggestions ?

[Cavius The Great]

Have you considered Possessed Portal? It works well in conjunction with Squee. I've seen Type 1 builds that ran it.

[Benie Bederios]

Allright,

I see some very strange things about your list Quentin. First of all you play 15 creatures with Survival. This is far to few. There is nothing worse than having a Survival in play and no creatures to use it.

Second to that 20 lands isn't enough to support Mox Diamond, unless you play something like Life from the Loam( and even than it's risky.) Your manabase seems very strange imho. You need alot of different colors and you still use Wasteland. You might be better of changing that to colored lands. You can play some dual lands in the deck though, Vintage builds used alot of duals with 7/10.

You have way too many backup plans. Those things makes your deck very unfocussed. You are better of with one straight plan with one backupplan. The worst backup plan is Zombie Infestation. You don't have good enough ways to really take advantage of it. Sure discarding Squee's to Study and Idea's is nice, but not really gamebreaking.

So that leaves you at 3 plans: Survival/Welder, Careful Study/ Welder and Careful Study/ Reanimator.

At this point you can focus on Survival. This way you can use Survival/ Welder as mainplan and beatdown with Tarmogoyf as backup. I wouldn't play Intuition and Thirst for Knowledge myself, but would keep the deck GR. But it's your choice.
Not long ago I played a list with Magus of the Moon and Tarmogoyf as backupplan. It also used Golghari Grave-Throll as second way to get creatures in the graveyard. After that it used Genesis( it played 3) to get them back.

The other way is to direction of Teen Titans. Use Carefull Study, Thirst for Knowledge and Intuition to get beef in the graveyard and after that Goblin Welder to get it out as mainplan. The backupplan would be using reanimator spells instead.

If you would go the second way this is how I would play it roughly.

I would play about 22 mana sources including Chrome Mox, some Duals and fetches and Artifact lands. The maincolor would be blue and the light splashes would be red and black. The reason for this I want to see blue first turn, and black and red later. You might want to use Academy Ruins to get your artifact lands back.

As reanimator spells you obviously need Goblin Welder. Next to that the choices would be Reanimate and Exhume, I wouldn't play Animate Dead, because it makes your Sundering Titan 6/10 and that means you need to beat an aditional turn to get 20+ damage through. There is also Thrash for Treasure. I have seen lists removing black from the list and only play those to cards. With Burning Wish that gives you 11 options to reanimate

As beef I would play atleast Trikselion and Sundering Titan. I'm not sure about the specific numbers. Platinum Angel is nice, but most deck can deal with it so I doubt it would be MD stuff. It is nice to bring in against combo though. Possessed Portal is another option but I never used it though. You could also use cards like Pentavus and Mindslaver and even Crucible of Worlds.

For control you can choose the color. Blue has got counterspells, Force of Will and Daze can be nice. Note that you need Islands for Daze. Black gives you Thoughtseize and Duress. Thoughtseize can be used to discard a fatty too. Red gives you Burning Wish. I would go with Discard and maybe Burning Wish. I never liked FoW and Daze in this dec. With Careful Study and Chrome Mox you are already killing your hand.

As cards that can dump your fat in the Graveyard there are alot of options. Blue has the most with Careful Study, Intuition, Thirst for Knowledge and even Tolarian Winds. I wouldn't use Ideas Unbound. It is a Sorcery and lets you discard EOT, where you might want to discard right away. Red has Gamble wich is a really good card if you like ... gambling ... It can search for reanimator spells and beef and even control. Black only has Putrid Imp and Thoughtseize.

So the deck would look something like this.

22 lands including
Chrome Mox
Seat of the Synod
Great Furnace
blue fetches
Volcanic Islands
Underground Sea

Possible
Wasteland
Academy Ruins

10 Reanimator Spells including
Goblin Welder
Reanimate
Exhume

Possible
Trash for Treasure

8 Targets including
Sundering Titan
Triskelion

Possible
Platinum Angel
Possesed Portal
Crucible of Worlds

9 Control spells including
Duress
Thoughtseize
Burning Wish

11 dumpers including
Careful Study
Intuition

Possible
Thrist for Knowledge
Gamble

Anyway that is my look on the deck, do with it what you like.

BB

[quentin]

thanks guys for the feedback :).


Have you considered Possessed Portal? It works well in conjunction with Squee. I've seen Type 1 builds that ran it.

Well it seems too slow, and relies too much on welder for my taste. In T1 welders may survive due to the low amounts of creature removal, but in legacy I don't want to rely on a 1/1 creature to be there. PP can't be exhumed, can't be fetched via survival, and therefore is only useful if it is in hand originally and a welder cans urvive enough to fetch him. Too much trouble i think.

On to Benie's remarks :

First of all you play 15 creatures with Survival. This is far to few. There is nothing worse than having a Survival in play and no creatures to use it.

Well it's different from a normal survival deck. The big fat guys are not being played so they're likely to be in hand, and with 4 squees and the amount of card drawing you do via studies and ideas, you almost always have one in hand. I played nearly 100 games with variations of this deck, and maybe once i had a survival with no creature to discard to it, which is an acceptable rate I think. Oddly, I find myself more often with stuff in hand i'd like/could discard and without something to discard it too.



Second to that 20 lands isn't enough to support Mox Diamond, unless you play something like Life from the Loam( and even than it's risky.) Your manabase seems very strange imho. You need alot of different colors and you still use Wasteland. You might be better of changing that to colored lands. You can play some dual lands in the deck though, Vintage builds used alot of duals with 7/10.

Note: LftL can be fetched from SB via wish.
The reason for 20 lands + 3 moxen is that i vener really need more. The CCs in the deck of the cards you actually want to play are all very low :
8* 1CC
18* 2CC
this means you can play everything with just 2 lands. Moxes are good for 2 reasons : they're multicolored mana in a deck that desperately needs it. It needs more quality mana than it does quantity, and moxes do just that, in the meantime as they help against bloodmoonish types of problems. 2d, since the decks runs off 2 mana, having one mox in play means that even vs cruci/loam+waste or mana destructions strategies (sinkhole etc.), you don't care if you don't have any land in play, you can keep it until you actually need to play it, knowing that when you play it it might be a game-breaking move (ie, exhume/animate).
The remarks about wastelands/duals is valid though. It may be worth dropping wastes to include duals, helping like this to get the right-colored mana. I will try this out.


You have way too many backup plans. Those things makes your deck very unfocussed. You are better of with one straight plan with one backupplan. The worst backup plan is Zombie Infestation. You don't have good enough ways to really take advantage of it. Sure discarding Squee's to Study and Idea's is nice, but not really gamebreaking. So that leaves you at 3 plans: Survival/Welder, Careful Study/ Welder and Careful Study/ Reanimator.


I don't really understand this remark. I don't have many backup plans. I have one strategy: reanimating stuff. The only real "backup plan" is burning wish, I don't remember winning a lot of games with zombie tokens, although i remember them keeping me alive long enough to win afterwards with something else. To achieve the animation strategy, I basically have discard outlets, and animation cards.
discard outlets :
ideas+careful (also happen to be draw)
survivals (also happen to be tutor)
ZIs (also happen to be token generating)
animation cards :
welders, animate dead, exhume

I agree ZI as a "backup plan" is really subpar. Its primary role though, is to be a discard outlet, it only just happens to be able to create zombie tokens in the meantime which is convenient. Having it makes the 4 squees "worth" it in combination with the fact they help with CS and IU. If i drop the ZIs, probably 4 squees is over-doing it, and if i drop the squees, studies and ideas become much less interesting, which means the deck needs to find a new draw engine and a new discard engine at the same time. I'd love to replace ZI with something more efficient, hence the asking for suggestions :).


At this point you can focus on Survival. This way you can use Survival/ Welder as mainplan and beatdown with Tarmogoyf as backup. I wouldn't play Intuition and Thirst for Knowledge myself, but would keep the deck GR. But it's your choice.
Not long ago I played a list with Magus of the Moon and Tarmogoyf as backupplan. It also used Golghari Grave-Throll as second way to get creatures in the graveyard. After that it used Genesis( it played 3) to get them back.

You say i have too many plans and then throw in a new one :p. Tarmogoyf, aside from being a pretty good card, really doesn't fit anywhere in the strategy. It doesn't help discarding, doesn't help animating, or doesn't help finding cards to do either. I know people tend to auto-include it in any build with green at this stage, but the deck you describe sounds to me like RGBSA.


The other way is to direction of Teen Titans. Use Carefull Study, Thirst for Knowledge and Intuition to get beef in the graveyard and after that Goblin Welder to get it out as mainplan. The backupplan would be using reanimator spells instead. If you would go the second way this is how I would play it roughly.
*suggestions about TT build*


This is closer to my original goal. The problem is TFK and Intuition is that in practice, they are too slow. They allow for a theoretical turn 4 titan. Combo decks have you killed by turn 4, and goblins don't mind a titan blocking them by turn 4, they're in enough numbers already to overcome this (even if goblins is less prevalent than it used to be, it is still played by just so many people).
Cards like duress are very nice against some types of combo (tendrils primarily) but are unhelpful vs just as many decks manipulating the graveyard or goblins, and they also make you lose one turn, without helping your deck's strategy overall. Thoughtseize is more interesting of course, but still.

It's trying to make that turn 4 titan faster that i arrived to this build, starting from the original extended TT (which you pretty much describe as your suggestion).
If you re-read my original post and the reasons for the card choices, you see that the number of turn 2 titans option is quite high:
welder + study + titan
welder + ideas + titan
welder + infestation + titan
study + animate + titan
study + exhume + titan
And the number of turn 3 titans is too many to list, this being without counting on a mox. Lists that play TFK and Intuition have only CS as the turn 2 option, and need welder for a turn 3 titan without it. All their other options go to turn 4, which with only control cards duresses and the likes see you dead versus too many decks.

About reanimate : the B casting cost is awesome vs control that's true. I used to play it before AD, and this even allows for turn 1 titan with CS. Only the 8 life loss cost me *so many games*. Dying to a lightning bolt in an otherwise sealed game, or to the remaining matron and fanatic when you finally got rid of those piledrivers just made me nuts. I switched to AD and honnestly never looked back. I still play reanimate in the SB to be cast by burning wish turn 3 if needed.
The -1/-0 is troublesome though. Not as much because of the 18 life in 3 turns in place of 21 (most people play fetches/tend to lose life by themselves enough to make 18 relevant). But because this deck often happens to dump enough in the yard to make Goyfs 6/7, which makes an animated trisk or titan unable to kill them when it would have without the -1/-0. I'd like to replace ADs with something else but haven't found what. Reanimate is too costly in life, and thrash for treasure too costly in casting cost. I could maybe take the exhume in the SB in the maindeck, lower the number of ADs, and have another animation option to be wished for.


You might want to use Academy Ruins to get your artifact lands back.

gamble
These are interesting suggestions, I need to try them out. Too bad gamble doesn't let you pick the card, I'd be willing to discard 2 and chose them instead of the random effect.

I've been suggested another card :

avatar of discord
(B/R)(B/R)(B/R)
Flying
When Avatar of Discord comes into play, sacrifice it unless you discard two cards.
5/3


The CC is a bit too high unfortunately, but this does a nice job of allowing to discard and giving you a 5/3 flyer at the same time. I will give it a shot in a couple more tests too. Of course there is also putrid imp but he misses the punch this one shows, and hapless researchers (in the original TT build), but again this looks a bit sub-par.
Wild mongrel is another option although it's green.

Thanks again Benie for your feedback. I'm sorry if i sound like i want to discuss everything suggested, but i keep getting suggestions to re-do this existing deck or that one (welder survival, RGBSA, teen titans) when iknow those decks and i'm trying to create something different.