[Deck] Crystalline Elves

[Nihil Credo]

3 Eladamri
Play four Eladamri, for fuck's sake. Try asking any CounterSliver player how many Crystallines they would run if they were Legendary and gave forestwalk. For the double-green, you've got Vial and ESG.

On a secondary note, Harbinger sucks. Doubly so in an aggro build.

[paragon22]

Quote:
Originally Posted by paragon22
3 Eladamri


Play four Eladamri, for fuck's sake. Try asking any CounterSliver player how many Crystallines they would run if they were Legendary and gave forestwalk. For the double-green, you've got Vial and ESG.

^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
Duly noted. I had a feeling Harbingers weren't good enough, since there aren't many great silver bullets aside from Caller. If the elf card went to your hand Harbingers would be an auto-include, like Matron in Goblins. Do you think Wirewood Herald has a place in the deck instead or more aggressive creatures like Packmaster or even Chameleon Colossus?

[Nihil Credo]

I play Elves with the black splash, so Wirewood Heralds are an auto-include in my list (other than their natural Moat effect, they're Demonic Tutors with Therapy). But my list is far less aggressive - I don't use mana denial or 1-drop Elves, running discard instead.

I'm not sure how Heralds would work in your list - maybe there are better options out there. But they are almost certainly better than Harbingers: cheaper, same attack power, and they are wonderful against sweepers (opponent Wraths or Deeds, you go search up Caller of the Claw).

[technogeek5000]

So it looks like we neither get a banneret or a new lord... ah well theres always Jelly/Doughnut. What i wanted to hear is eveyones thoughts on aether vial. I dont think that the Mono Green lists need it because they run priest and cradle.

Also i was ondering what everyones thoughts are on eyes of the wisent. It could help against thresh and its proactive rather then reactive which is realy important. The thing i dont like about it is that it doesnt answer the mass emoval which is what realy kills us. Im looking for something like masked admireres but less with less suck. Any suggestions?

[Nihil Credo]

If you want to hit both thresh and landstill fairly hard, play Choke.

[technogeek5000]

Yes i already play choke, but the decks two biggest weaknesses currently are combo and mass removal. Choke hits thresh and landstill but it doesnt help against deed or explosives and landstil is not the only deck that runs mass. Choke is a great card but im looking for 3 slots to counteract sweepers.

[Nihil Credo]

Mass removal does not scare me when I play this deck. Between Wirewood Herald (-> Caller of the Claw, if you maindeck it, but fetching Messenger is fine too), Sylvan Messenger, Masked Admirers, and Wren's Run Packmaster I can recover from sweepers just like Goblins do, if not better. Imperious Perfect is also important because when I play against control I often stop dropping cards until he dies, and just keep making 2/2 tokens instead.

As for combo, I choose to play black for disruption. The other serious solution to that problem is turn 1 acceleration (meaning Tomb/Mox/ESG, not mana elves) and Chalice of the Void. You can also consider Thorn of Amethyst, but it's far less effective against non-combo decks.

[Curby]

If they make Eladamri not affect himself in the name of being in line with other cards, they'd have to remove the Legendary supertype too. Heck, Scion of Oona gives Faeries a non-Legendary enshrouding Lord; will they make him Legendary to compensate? (This assumes decisions made by Wizards have reasoning behind them :tongue:)

Along the same lines, I wouldn't expect another Elvish Bannaret... it's called Priest of Titania! Elves have silly acceleration already between ESG, Mana Elves, and Symbiote. You also get Cradle (though technically other decks can use it too).

I'm not sure that the loss of Eladamri will kill the deck's power outright. It enables the use of ALL of Symbiote's tricks, for example. However, it would obviously be a blow.

[Squirrley1414]

I think this deck is teetering on the edge as it has not gotten any new cards from morningtide and just might lose its main bomb with the next oracle update.:rolleyes: With that being said though, this is the first legacy deck I have tackled seriously (and first post to show) and have even bought the cards for my next tournament. Therefore, I'd like to continue to tune at least until then.

Let's see if we can't iron out some details here.
1) Aether Vial vs. Llanowar/Fyndhorn vs. Priest: I go with the Llanowars over vials in my build because they count as Elves. This is especially important because I run 10 lords mb and having a 2/2 forestwalk, shroud creature is nothing to laugh at. I use them over Priest because they're faster and Priest is only superior when you have more than three elves in play, in which case, you should already be winning/you don't have many more elves in your hand.
2) Thorn of Amethyst vs. Cabal Therapy vs. Thoughtseize: These are basically to stop combo and such. I go with Thorn because they're colorless so I don't need black in my pre-board, but also because therapy is tough to call on the first try with all the random decks running around. Thorn has the obvious advantage over thoughtseize in the life department, but I find that so many decks end up using the graveyard anyway, that getting rid of a card doesn't do much (cephalid, threshold, Ichorid, IGGy, Aggro-loam ...)
3) Gaea's cradle vs. not: I guess the con is that it sometimes gets stuck in your hand on the first turn or that you might get two copies. To tackle the first problem, I have 4 ESGs and 9 one drops, so no basic land hands are still keepable. To tackle the second problem, I only run two total. Finally, I think that having a gaea's cradle to cancel a tabernacle is just the coolest thing ever. :tongue:
4) Volrath's Stronghold vs. not: I don't like colorless mana if I can help it, also its nonbasic. Is this card really that good?
5) Eyeblight's ending, how many?: I use one as a silver bullet against cepahlid breakfast or just in general if my opponent only plays limited win conditions (read thresh). I'm thinking I might need more in the sb.
6) Wren's Run Packmaster vs. not: I don't use any because it costs way too much, if I have messloads of mana to make wolves, it probably means I got mana flooded, got one elf in play and then removed it just to play packmaster. (Also I don't play priest).

Creatures//
4 Llanowar Elf
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
2 Fyndhorn Elf
4 Eladamiri, Lord of Leaves
3 Skyshroud Elite
2 Elvish Champion
4 Wren’s Run Vanquisher
4 Wirewood Herald
4 Sylvan Messenger
4 Imperious Perfect
Spells//
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Eyeblight's Ending
Lands//
6 Forest
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Swamp
4 Bayou
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Gaea’s Cradle
1 Phyrexian Tower
Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Pithing Needle
1 Caller of the Claw
4 Krosan Grip
1 Elvish Champion

Ok, tear it apart. What do u guys think?

[Nihil Credo]

Except for #5, we've come to exactly opposite choices :P

You can find an explanation of my picks in a few posts earlier in the thread, starting from about post-count 200.

[rufus]

Does Land Grant have a place in a deck like this?

Regarding Morningtide - Bramblewood Paragon can interact fairily nicely with
Eladamiri Lord of Elves,
Imperious Perfect,
Wren's Run Vanquisher, and itself.
(Also with certain changelings.)

[etrigan]

Eladamri, Lord of Leaves
Eladamri was never supposed to boost himself with his own abilities. When he became an Elf in the last update, however, he suddenly started affecting himself. This was an unintended functional change, and it's been corrected—he now affects "other" Elves.

Posted today. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/feature/440a)

[Wynk]

Posted today. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/feature/440a)

Dang it...... Why????

Does anyone still see Elves becoming a competitive deck without Eladamri affecting himself?

[Curby]

Does Land Grant have a place in a deck like this?

Regarding Morningtide - Bramblewood Paragon can interact fairily nicely with
Eladamiri Lord of Elves,
Imperious Perfect,
Wren's Run Vanquisher, and itself.
(Also with certain changelings.)

Land Grant is great in Stompy cause it pitches to Bounty and Vine Dryad, but here I'd rather just see a Forest. Turning their Spell Snare into a Strip Mine is a bad deal. =)

Paragon is nice, but we've already got 8 Lords that pump every creature we run. With so many Tarmogoyfs, Forestwalk is about as good as Trample (and once again affects every critter we have). Lastly, if a Lord is the last Elf to hit the field, no biggie. Compared to that, top-decking Paragon is horrible.

Grr, I somehow ended up with 5 Eladamri, and now they nerf him. :cry: Time to break out the Symbiotes and Timberwatches again, I suppose. Is anyone going to run Eladamri as a 4-of after the newest change? My Elf deck was always meant to be casual so I won't scrap it, but I'm wondering what the best Elf tactic is now.

[insertnamehere]

Land Grant is great in Stompy cause it pitches to Bounty and Vine Dryad, but here I'd rather just see a Forest. Turning their Spell Snare into a Strip Mine is a bad deal. =)

Paragon is nice, but we've already got 8 Lords that pump every creature we run. With so many Tarmogoyfs, Forestwalk is about as good as Trample (and once again affects every critter we have). Lastly, if a Lord is the last Elf to hit the field, no biggie. Compared to that, top-decking Paragon is horrible.

Grr, I somehow ended up with 5 Eladamri, and now they nerf him. :cry: Time to break out the Symbiotes and Timberwatches again, I suppose. Is anyone going to run Eladamri as a 4-of after the newest change? My Elf deck was always meant to be casual so I won't scrap it, but I'm wondering what the best Elf tactic is now.

I am considering adding in 1(4 of), of the following
Steely Resolve
Lightning Greaves (best choic if adding in Doran and the new Treefolk guy that gives your guys +0/+5 if blocked

Wirewood symbiotes were always in the deck for me because of the bounce effect.
Elves will not die, there are too many of them.

[Nihil Credo]

Posted today. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/feature/440a)
As far as I'm concerned, the mods may as well lock this thread.

[technogeek5000]

Fuck you wizards.

Thats all i have to say. Im not even gonna think of touching this deck unless shadowmoor has something that makes this deck worth playing. Without eladamri this deck is completely inferior to goblins in every single way.

[Finn]

Yep.

Eladamri was never supposed to boost himself with his own abilities. When he became an Elf in the last update, however, he suddenly started affecting himself. This was an unintended functional change, and it's been corrected—he now affects "other" Elves.

Again, I feel like there should have been someone warning us:

"We are not professionals, and therefor not held to the kinds of standards most people are at their jobs. Try to understand that we can and will make lazy mistakes commonly as we go about changing every rule we can think to. As a result, you may make decks that don't actually exist because of us. Just be warned."

That isn't even an apology. But I would be satisfied.

[xsockmonkeyx]

RIP Crystalline Elves, we hardly knew ye.

Oct.2007- Jan.2008

Nevar 4get.

[Squirrley1414]

I feel there should almost be a ceremony of sorts mourning the death of the Lord of Leaves. Let us hold hands in prayer that shadowmoor will give us something amazing. Otherwise this deck is left to the benches. It was good while it lasted.

[Illissius]

As far as I'm concerned, the mods may as well lock this thread.

Ditto.

[Bardo]

With the Oracle (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/feature/440a) update nerfing Eladamri, I'm not sure what's left to discuss here.

If anyone can provide me with a good case, PM me and I'll reopen the thread.

EDIT - Reopened upon request.

[technogeek5000]

Meh i dont think its worth playing anymore but there are replacements for eladamri. Some ones that comes to mind are...

Symbiote

And thats about all thats left. I dont see much else that i would want to run in the protection slot. Steely resolve maybe (emphasis on maybe).

Edit: Sigged for importance
RIP Crystalline Elves, we hardly knew ye.

Oct.2007- Jan.2008

Nevar 4get.

[insertnamehere]

RIP Crystalline Elves, we hardly knew ye.

Oct.2007- Jan.2008

Nevar 4get.

The deck can win without Eladamri. Don't count it out yet.

[KillemallCFH]

The deck can win without Eladamri. Don't count it out yet.I don't really have any play experience with this deck, but it seems to me that it could still run Eladamri, even with him being neutered. Sure, he's a hell of a lot worse, but he still reads "GG: Make target opponent waste StP/Shriekmaw/etc on this creature and/or make all your other dudes unblockable against any deck playing 'goyf." I could be, and probably am, way off here, but thats my $.02.

[from Cairo]

The change back doesnt even make sense, Eladamri is only legal in vintage. The deck wasn't remotely pushing into T2 status, he's not just a Lord, he's a legend, IE you can't use two to effect all Elves, like you can the Faerie, and by packing 4 to ensure Crystalline effect you risked dead draws. Seems like a pointless change, but I agree with the people saying RIP, this deck didn't seem to be making huge waves but without Crystalline Elf it's definitely worse than Goblins.

[rufus]

It's a bit off-topic, but
Eladimari originally had:
"Elves cannot be the target of spells or abilities"
Which seems like it includes elf spells on the stack. Did it ever?

[Bardo]

It's a bit off-topic, but
Eladimari originally had:
"Elves cannot be the target of spells or abilities"
Which seems like it includes elf spells on the stack. Did it ever?

No; they're not "elves" while on the stack--only when they're in play (after they've resolved).

[etrigan]

Due to the creation of Tribal cards, cards like that have been errata'd to affect "Elf permanents", or "Sliver permanents", etc.

[rufus]

Due to the creation of Tribal cards, cards like that have been errata'd to affect "Elf permanents", or "Sliver permanents", etc.

Actually, the rules for "Shroud" are "this permanent cannot be the target of spells or effects". Since spells on the stack are not permanents in play, shroud doesn't do anything for spells on the stack, and the ability is typically "All X have shroud".

[Windux]

You can't say, this deck isn't playable anymore, just because Eladamri is attackable.

All your other Elves has shroud, what means, your opponent still needs to destroy Eladamri and THEN destroy another elf.

Ok, now you have to look ut for blockers because he could take out Eladamri and block.

BUT: If you play/Vial Eladamri in, your opponent will mostly kill another relevant threat in response to it.

I think, the deck is still viable and the oracle change will cost you some games, but not even 10% at all.

[technogeek5000]

I didnt want to make a new thread for this so i just went back to this thread because it has the most discussion on elves out of all the threads on this board.

Well shadomoor previews are starting and i have already seen a potential candidate that could be put into this deck.
http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/mtgcom/fcpics/taste/db30_vz6kn.jpg
This card puts elves in sort of a new position from where it left off of with the raping of Eladamri. Elves can now have 12 viable lords in the same deck. But this card is more then that. its 4/4 body makes it much harder to kill then all the other lords which allows your creatures to be able to stay around much longer. Since most black decks are currently packing 4 plauges all of the lords were in danger when there was not 2 of them down. With this card it lets you start out new by casting it and making all of your creatures able to survive, which the other lords had a problem doing. This card is great in multiples as when you have 2 of them out they each get 2/2 from each other in addition to whatever other bonuses they were getting from the other elves. Its discard ability will largely be irrelevant but it does protect it from TS which is becoming increasingly popular and it makes cards like hymn to tourach really bad for the opponent if they dont know you are playing this guy. If you play this guy along with other cards that help you bounce back from (mass) removal like symbiote and packmaster then this deck could be close to as resilient as it was when we had our Crystalline lord and have an even stronger aggro game.

[Isamaru]

Why does Elves have to be mono green? Is this discussion mono green only?

I don't see why you don't splash a color (namely white, for starters) for access to Oblivion Ring, which removes plagues and deeds, etc.

[Kuma]

I really hate to say it, but thusfar the spoiled elves have done absolutely nothing to make me want to pick up this deck again. What this deck needs is a viable replacement for Eladamri, not another +1/+1 lord. This isn't to say Wilt-Leaf Liege isn't a legitimate addition to the deck, but it's not what the deck needs to be a viable alternative to Goblins. Don't get me wrong, no one wants this deck to be awesome as much as I do. It ruined my day when Eladamri was re-errated (Although correctly so). This deck needs a decent all elves gain shroud creature. Something like:

G/W G/W
Creature - Elf Shaman
2/1

Elf creatures you control cannot be the target of spells or abilities your opponents control.

1G: Target Elf creature gains forestwalk until end of turn.

Then I might be interested.

[Xenocide]

Why does Elves have to be mono green? Is this discussion mono green only?

I don't see why you don't splash a color (namely white, for starters) for access to Oblivion Ring, which removes plagues and deeds, etc.

Because there is a 3cc, split second, on color spell that removes plagues and deeds. I'm sure you'll figure it out.

[Jak]

I know the errata hurt this deck and all, but why was Eladamri cut? He still gives Shroud AND Forest walk which is huge. He owns Thresh by himself. Did the deck get that much worse when he was changed?

[technogeek5000]

Because with the errata he became inferior to other options in his slot... Trust me, i played with the deck in tournaments and i know. There was countless games that i realize i would havehad know right winning because i got rid of the 4-12 maindeck ways they could stop me. Wirewood symbiote essentially fills this roll because it can stop one piece of removal a turn. Also it opens up other possiblities, most notably the un-fucking-believably amazing draw engine that is recurring messengers (also while untapping your priest to play every single one you draw). I played this deck at a local tournament the week after the errata and won myself a sea drake and the draw engine i got working 3 times, and every single time i got it working it was instantaneous scoopage.

Isamaru: Because you weaken the deck by splashing a color. Why open yourself to watseland, moon effects, stifle, back to basic to fight a deck when you can already fight the same deck just as effectively in 1 color. Ill post my most recent list when i fetch it up later.

[Isamaru]

Because there is a 3cc, split second, on color spell that removes plagues and deeds. I'm sure you'll figure it out.
Xenocide, you are truly a gem of a player for pointing that out. In addition to your profound statement, we can also conclude that Inertia is a property of matter.

Last time I "figured it out" (as you were sure I would), I also noticed that most people would agree it is not worth mainboarding it, unlike Oblivion Ring.

technogeek, Wasteland, Moon effects, Stifle, and Back to Basics do relatively little when confronted with Llanowar Elves, Fyndhorn Elves, and Priest of Titania, and especially Quirion Ranger. I think that your default answer is usually true, except for when discussing elves.

You should take a look at other color options, and I don't only mean creatures (WG Elf creatures and junk), and I also do not mean Black, since that is where all of the minds probably immediately went, thinking of Discard and Dark Confidant, which truly are not worth the splash.

[technogeek5000]

The thing is, its not.

I know this deck in and out. Splashing for white, while seems interesting, does not do anything to improve any of your problem matchups which should be the only reason to splash for. Krosan grip is a better oblivion ring, stp is not needed when their is not a single aggro deck that can beat us consistently. krosan grip is better against landstill because they cant force it or crack it in response. Xenocide may have been pointing out the obvious, but that doesnt make him anymore wrong. If your scared of Artifacts or enchantments, green has all of the best answers out of all five colors. I dont see what else their is to splash for in white... if you could show another gem that will improve the matchups that we have problems with (landstill and combo most notably) then please share them. If not, then it would be best to stay mono because you have eveything you need in one color. Even though we run mana elves it still hurts slightly to be vulnerable to the cards i mentioned, and if you are opening your self to these things (no matter how minor) you have to be improving a matchup considerably for the trade to be worth it.

If your looking for a list to start off of, i strongly recommend using my current list. It is favorable if not almost auto-win against all aggro in the format(the two that are not auto win's are goblins and the rock... goblins is still aroun 60-40 or better and the rock if you dont over extend and fall into a pernicous deed trap then youll be fine):

3 Llanowar elves
3 Fyndhorn elves
4 Priest of titania
4 ESG
4 Elvish champion
4 Imperious perfect
4 Sylvan messenger
4 Wren's run vanquisher
4 Thorn of amethyst
3 Wren's run packmaster
4 Wirewood symbiote
14 forest
3 Wasteland
2 gae's cradle

4 Leyline
4 Choke
3 Krosan grip
4 Chalice/root maze/caller of the claw

[Isamaru]

I won't give away Team Rocket's Sneak Attack, but I will say that if you want to improve your Landstill and Rock matchups, stop playing so so many little Elves and play a few meaty cards. (That doesn't have to mean lunchtable, meat, don't get me wrong..... and no, I don't mean Tarmogoyf either. I mean cards that actually do something but aren't elves.)

[Thehunter820]

The thing is, its not.

I know this deck in and out. Splashing for white, while seems interesting, does not do anything to improve any of your problem matchups which should be the only reason to splash for. Krosan grip is a better oblivion ring, stp is not needed when their is not a single aggro deck that can beat us consistently. krosan grip is better against landstill because they cant force it or crack it in response. Xenocide may have been pointing out the obvious, but that doesnt make him anymore wrong. If your scared of Artifacts or enchantments, green has all of the best answers out of all five colors. I dont see what else their is to splash for in white... if you could show another gem that will improve the matchups that we have problems with (landstill and combo most notably) then please share them. If not, then it would be best to stay mono because you have eveything you need in one color. Even though we run mana elves it still hurts slightly to be vulnerable to the cards i mentioned, and if you are opening your self to these things (no matter how minor) you have to be improving a matchup considerably for the trade to be worth it.

If your looking for a list to start off of, i strongly recommend using my current list. It is favorable if not almost auto-win against all aggro in the format(the two that are not auto win's are goblins and the rock... goblins is still aroun 60-40 or better and the rock if you dont over extend and fall into a pernicous deed trap then youll be fine):

3 Llanowar elves
3 Fyndhorn elves
4 Priest of titania
4 ESG
4 Elvish champion
4 Imperious perfect
4 Sylvan messenger
4 Wren's run vanquisher
4 Sylvan messenger
4 Thorn of amethyst
3 Wren's run packmaster
4 Wirewood symbiote
14 forest
3 Wasteland
2 gae's cradle

4 Leyline
4 Choke
3 Krosan grip
4 Chalice/root maze/caller of the claw

8 sylvan messengers eh?

[insertnamehere]

Bloodline shaman could be a very useful card with other non elf cards like:
Thousand year Elixir
Cream of the Crop

Also IMO, there are enough threats in elves (including upcoming sets) that they could be as fast if not faster than Goblins

[Kuma]

I know the errata hurt this deck and all, but why was Eladamri cut? He still gives Shroud AND Forest walk which is huge. He owns Thresh by himself. Did the deck get that much worse when he was changed?

Problem is Eladamri is targetable. It really sucks when you attack thinking your creatures will be unblockable and your opponent responds with StP/Bolt/Smother/Whatever on Eladamri. It's just too easy to get screwed by people messing with Eladamri.

[Willoe]

Can countermagic be a solution to this problem? an UG build would not be that bad, IMO. Otherwise, you could stay monogreen by playing Avoid Fate.

[Isamaru]

1G Enchantment Creatures of the type of your choice have shroud.

Play at least 1 copy, then, no? The only disadvantage here is multiples suck.

[Dark_Cynic87]

I don't see a problem going 3/3 or 4/2 with Eladamri and Steely Resolve...I know resolve is strictly worse than Eladamri, but it's still a decent solution. When you have both down it's like Eladamri is back to it's best eratta. Hell, I'd think that 2/4 with Eladamri and Steely Resolve respectively might even be the best way to go. You've got access to a good tutor via Wirewood Herald, so it would make more sense to run it 2/4. This makes them have to have 2x kinds of removal at the same time. That's almost the same any way you cut it.

I'm actally pretty interested in that newest 2/2 for (1)(G/W)(G/W)(G/W). Pumps up copies of itself +2/+2. That's pretty rediculous. Gives all other elves +1/+1. That's teh nuts.

What about the new Rhys? I'm very much intrigued by the token side of the elvish tribe. Not the Wolf crap, but the elf tokens. I have advocated Elvish Promenade over Sylvan Messenger. Here's why: Elvish Promenade basically creates the same thing as Messenger--Creatures. The difference is that almost always you get more creatures from the Promenade than you do the Messenger. I run 1x Messenger and tutor it up via Herald if/when I need it. Play it, then End of thier turn, double up with tokens and have a Taunting Elf out. Taunting Elf is cheating, plain and simple.

Also, white might not be as bad of a splash as you would first think. It does give you Gaddock Teeg in the board, helping with your combo matchup. Even more so it gives you Chant as well, which is also good in the Storm matchup, or as a timewalk against Goblins, and additional turns against Thresh.

I like black splashes as it gives you Cabal Therapy because it sacs off Herald and is decent disruption vs. Combo, stax and etc., although stax is winable via Nullmage Shepherd, K. Grip, Viridian Shaman, etc., not to mention that you make tokens with Imperious Perfect and rival them in the amount of permanents you play. Plus, the white splash gives you Teeg, stopping Stax and Chalice. Thorn of Amethyst is also very helpful in the matchup. Stompy builds are beat by chump blocking, and returning Deathtouch critters such as Thornweald Achers (an autoinclude in every elf-build I make) thanks to Symbiote. Also for black there's Extirpate which can be crazy against combo-based ideas such as Ichorid and Bridge from Below, and also there's E. Plague (only 1 black in the cost, so it's acceptable) for against Goblins and Goblin Tokens, and even Mongeese, although I wouldn't worry about them too much. I've even tried Smother/Pack's Disdain, but it's overkill.

When you board in Teegs, of course you side out Promenades. Also a bonus of Teegs is it's a tool against FoW. 4x Vials plus Teegs makes for a good day against counterspell.

Does anyone play Llanowar Sentinels and Birchlore Rangers? They are good inclusions for when you decide to splash. I love Birchlore Rangers. Including these 2 critters makes it possible to have a really mean sb. Stifles, Chain of Vapor/Echoing Truth/Repeal/Rushing River, Teegs, Chants, etc. with Therapies md without duals and the like. It's rarely inconsistant. Hell, with Teeg, you don't even have to worry about the mana as you run Vial, and 2 is (for me) the most common CC in an elf deck, and you can even MD a plains with 4x Heaths.

If you are worried about not finding Teeg, there's always Eladamri's Call/Sylvan Tutor. GGWW for Teeg isn't amazing, but it could be consistant. This is watering down your creature count, but I'm not talking about doing all of it. Just whatever you need to for your bad matchups in your meta. So the idea is to have Teeg, Eladamri, and Resolve down. That way, they have no answers except for getting rid of Teeg and then going mass removal. That's 5 mana at the very least.

Have they errata'ed ESG to be an elf yet? If not, do you think they will? SSG is an ape spirit...it's irritating. I can't tutor for mana yet, and it's ticking me off.

For red there's the ever-boring elf-ball...I am sure people have had success with it, but I'm not intrigued by the idea. I like Staff of Domination much more.

I've always taken a more tutor-ish approach to my elf lists. I play one-of silver bullets and tutor for them if it's necessary. Instead of redundancy I go toolbox.

Has anyone ever tried GW Elves with 'Geddon effects? I suppose they have. I wonder how well it works, especially now with Thorn of Amethysts...

Just some thoughts, ideas, etc.

--cartman

[Xenocide]

I have advocated Elvish Promenade over Sylvan Messenger. Here's why: Elvish Promenade basically creates the same thing as Messenger--Creatures. The difference is that almost always you get more creatures from the Promenade than you do the Messenger. I run 1x Messenger and tutor it up via Herald if/when I need it. Play it, then End of thier turn, double up with tokens and have a Taunting Elf out. Taunting Elf is cheating, plain and simple.

Elvish Promenade is win-more. It is completely useless after a wrath-effect, where as Messenger is good all the time. Not to mention, Messenger's ridiculous synergy with Wirewood Symbiote.

Taunting Elf is terrible, as it is bad in top-deck mode, and does nothing on it's own.

[insertnamehere]

IMO Sylvan messanger is better in an elf deck then Goblin Ringleader is in Goblins. Here are my reasons why:
Most elf decks running messanger run more elves because of the abilities on the cards.
There are 3 - 4 elves that destroy artifacts and/or enchantments
There are 5 elves (including shadowmoor)that can pump up other elves (ruins E=Plague)
There are X elves with mana abilities which helps recover the deck after a wrath based effect
There are 3 -5 creatures that have the abilities to create other elves, not including 3 or 4 instants/sorceries that add to or create more elf tokens.
Goblins has none of the above excpet for the following:
Wort
Seige Gang
Lackey
Mogg War Marshall


Cream of the Crop is a great addition to this deck because it can control what you get in your draw. Kinda like cheating legally.

I do not think that steely resolve or Eladamri are worth running because more and more elves have abilities that can enhance your other elves.

OMG has anyone seen Mana Reflection. Tap my Priest (10 elves in play) for 20:g: play my hand, make a million tokens, pump my Chameleon Colossus (with trample) 5 times, swing and say gg

[Pltnmngl]

Even though this deck got nerfed, I'm beginning to have an interest in it. I'm not going to post a bunch of noob posts about potential shadowmoor elves, but I am wondering what is the most optimal manabase?

[Kuma]

Anyone think Mercy Killing + Priest of Titania is good enough to make this deck viable again? It's definitely got me interested...

[insertnamehere]

Anyone think Mercy Killing + Priest of Titania is good enough to make this deck viable again? It's definitely got me interested...

Immaculate Magistrate would be house with that.

[technogeek5000]

Eh, your not really getting that manyelves through it which is why its not that amazing. The biggest creature this deck runs is packmaster and your never gonna wanna sack it with a priest out. Your probably only going to get 3-4 elves out and that doesnt give you any plus mana, or not enough to speed it up enough. The deck is fast enough, the only thing it realy needs now is a little more disruption and another eledamri-esque protection creature.

[Kuma]

That's the beauty of it -- you don't have to use it on your guys. Priest of Titania counts all elves in play. It's disruption plus mana accelleration. That's why I'm interested. Haven't tested it, but I believe some potential is there.

[insertnamehere]

I am curreently working on building an 8 Land Elvish Stompy deck to be posted soon. This deck should be able to outrun most decks.

[Curby]

I have to agree with technogeek5000. It seems cool to make them chump/trade in combat, then Mercy Kill your guy with damage on the stack, but once again it's useless after a Wrath, and not very useful at turning the tide unless very specific conditions are met. When it's most effective, it's a win-more card (or do just as little, e.g. when facing a Moat).

On the disruptive side, I'd rather splash White for real removal instead of giving them pumped Forestwalkers. Oh, and when your guys are Shrouded it doesn't boost your army. I'd rather pay 1 more for a Wilt Leaf Liege that happens to make Teeg a 4/4. Incidentally, how does the new Liege compare with Packmaster in terms of viability? This pumper can't do insane tricks with Priest of Titania, but it doesn't eat an Elf either. They both compete with Sylvan Messenger for the 4-drop slots, so we can't be running too many of them.

By the way, have we shot down Mutavault yet? I didn't see it discussed, and it dodges sweepers, counters, and the odd Humility. Unfortunately, it doesn't count as an Elf while it's a land, so Messenger et. al. can't fetch it.

[insertnamehere]

I have to agree with technogeek5000. It seems cool to make them chump/trade in combat, then Mercy Kill your guy with damage on the stack, but once again it's useless after a Wrath, and not very useful at turning the tide unless very specific conditions are met. When it's most effective, it's a win-more card (or do just as little, e.g. when facing a Moat).

On the disruptive side, I'd rather splash White for real removal instead of giving them pumped Forestwalkers. Oh, and when your guys are Shrouded it doesn't boost your army. I'd rather pay 1 more for a Wilt Leaf Liege that happens to make Teeg a 4/4. Incidentally, how does the new Liege compare with Packmaster in terms of viability? This pumper can't do insane tricks with Priest of Titania, but it doesn't eat an Elf either. They both compete with Sylvan Messenger for the 4-drop slots, so we can't be running too many of them.

By the way, have we shot down Mutavault yet? I didn't see it discussed, and it dodges sweepers, counters, and the odd Humility. Unfortunately, it doesn't count as an Elf while it's a land, so Messenger et. al. can't fetch it.

If you are running mana producers, you shouldn't have a problem running an extra 4 drop. I usually run 1-2 packmasters, 3 Messangers and maybe 3-4 Wilt Leaf Leige. Once you get out a few mana elves, you shouldn't have a problem with the 4 drops.

[technogeek5000]

Packmasters and sylvan messengers are important, you shouldnt be cutting them for lieges... or if you have to cut only 1 packmaster for them. The only elf in this deck that doesnt assist all the other cards is Vanquisher which is why im taking out 1-2 of them and a packmaster to fit in the lieges. insertnamehere is right that as long as your running enough acceleration the 4 drop slot should not be a problem. Oh and Id like to address packmasters drawback for those who havent actually noticed how beneficial it is for us. With the 5/5 body that makes 2/2's it never hurts your board to champion a elf. Even more importantly, is that it hides a creature so that if someone clears your board you can recover faster. I have always enjoyed hiding sylvan messengers because you get there CIP ability again after they shoot your board down so you can fully recover in 1-2 turns. Packmasters hide ability and the symbiotes hide ability are the reasons that this deck doesnt entirely fold to mass removal.

[Curby]

If you are running mana producers, you shouldn't have a problem running an extra 4 drop. I usually run 1-2 packmasters, 3 Messangers and maybe 3-4 Wilt Leaf Leige. Once you get out a few mana elves, you shouldn't have a problem with the 4 drops.

Yeah, but on the other hand you don't want a turn-2 Pyroclasm to wipe 2 turns of development and most of your mana production, leaving you holding only expensive dudes. Anyway, running around 6-8 in that slot seems like a good plan, and that's what you're doing anyway. =)

I guess these recent posts have "accidentally" shot down Mutavault in Elves. Existing resistance to sweepers in the deck, the fact that Mutavault doesn't help other Elves, etc.

New question: Which Leyline's in your sideboard? I take it that you're using Leyline of the Void and not the green one?

[insertnamehere]

Play Packmaster, championing a messanger, tapping my priest for a jillion mana, bouncing the packmaster with a symbiote to untap the priest, messanger comes into play revealing 4 cards, replay packmaster and whatever elves I revealed. Repeat and enjoy.

[Maveric78f]

you know that you can use symbiote only once a turn ?

[technogeek5000]

Play Packmaster, championing a messanger, tapping my priest for a jillion mana, bouncing the packmaster with a symbiote to untap the priest, messanger comes into play revealing 4 cards, replay packmaster and whatever elves I revealed. Repeat and enjoy.

Umm, its easier to just recur the messenger directly with symbiote then to go through all that. When you get that set up with recurring messengers its always a win so why go through all of this for the smae end result.

@kirbysdl: yes its the black leyline... the green one is garbage.

[Curby]

I know the black one is powerful, but I don't know that the other one is garbage. What do you do against Countertop backed with FoW/Daze? Or first turn chalice for 1, second turn chalice for 2? I know the curve of this deck is reasonably diverse, but a deck like TEC seems to have too many answers to both spells and resolved creatures. Given that everything in the maindeck besides Thorn is a creature, why is the green Leyline in the side so horrible?

This is actually two questions: (1) do you think it's actually crap, or do you simply prefer other cards in your side? and (2) so how do you beat permission decks?

On another note, if we want removal but not Mercy Killing, there's always the new Flame Javelin. 6 is a heavy cost to pay, but at least we now have an(other) option for "monogreen" creature removal. Desert Twister could also work, but it can't provide end-game reach.

[insertnamehere]

@kirbysdl: yes its the black leyline... the green one is garbage.

The only reason the green leyline would be used is when your opponent plays Chalice for 1(set-up)
Chalice for 2(finishing move)

[SuckerPunch]

There was a lot of solid and fruitful development of elves here for it all to go to waste just because one card got nerfed.

Eldamari, Lord of the Leaves is still crazy good.

It's no longer stupendously broken (making all your guys both unblockable and untargetable was insane, like Winged Sliver and Crystalline Sliver being put on the same card.)

It's now an elf, so it works with Priest, Wilt Leaf Liege etc.

It gives two fantastic abilities.

Forestwalk = Unblockable in this Goyf infested format.

Having to get StPed first before the other elves can be StPed is still extremely solid. It's like a Mother of Runes that doens't have to tap, and can continue to attack.

[Peter_Rotten]

Do we really need three Elves threads? Is there a way to consolidate this info or simply start a new thread? If someone is interested enough, he could start a new thread and we'll lock down these three Necro-jobs.

[SuckerPunch]

There is a lot of new, and diverging info on the different threads.

It would be sweet if they were indeed consolidated. But that's probably too much work.

The people will decide for themselves which elf thread has the best and most useful information and post there, and the other thread will fall off of page one by tommorrow.