[Deck] Crystalline Elves

[Illissius]

*** ORACLE UPDATE ***



Eladamri, Lord of Leaves
Eladamri was never supposed to boost himself with his own abilities. When he became an Elf in the last update, however, he suddenly started affecting himself. This was an unintended functional change, and it's been corrected—he now affects "other" Elves.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/feature/440a

YIKES!

Eladamri, Lord of Leaves
:g::g:
Legendary Creature -- Elf Warrior
2/2
Elf creatures have forestwalk.
All Elves have shroud. (They can't be the targets of spells or abilities.)

With the Lorwyn Oracle update, R&D updated Eladamri to be an Elf, but they didn't change the wording to say "other". This was probably a mistake which will most likely (but hopefully not) be fixed with Morningtide, but until then, it puts us in the unique situation of having a tribe with both a Crystalline Sliver and Goblin Ringleader in it, among many other things. I'm surprised no one has tried a deck yet.

Here are what look like the notable cards to consider:

Mana Elves
Elvish Spirit Guide
Llanowar Elves
Fyndhorn Elves
Elves of Deep Shadow
Boreal Druid
Priest of Titania
Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary

Card Drawing Elves
Sylvan Messenger
Wirewood Herald
Bloodline Shaman
Coiling Oracle
Multani's Acolyte
Masked Admirers

Token Producing Elves
Wren's Run Packmaster
Lys Alana Huntmaster
Wirewood Hivemaster
Deranged Hermit
Thelonite Hermit
Caller of the Claw

Elven Lords
Eladamri, Lord of Leaves
Imperious Perfect
Elvish Champion
Mirror Entity

Pump Elves
Gempalm Strider
Tribal Forcemage

Large Elves
Elvish Vanguard
Titania's Chosen

Combat Elves
Skyshroud Elite
Wren's Run Vanquisher
Thornweald Archer
Gaea's Skyfolk

Utility Elves
Elvish Lyrist
Elvish Scrapper
Viridian Zealot
Elvish Replica
Viridian Shaman
Glissa Sunseeker
Thornscape Battlemage
Lys Alana Scarblade
Wellwisher
Taunting Elf

Non-Creature Elves
Elvish Promenade
Prowess of the Fair
Eyeblight's Ending

Other Important Cards
Skyshroud Poacher
Aether Vial
Survival of the Fittest
Concordant Crossroads
Glimpse of Nature
Duress
Thoughtseize
Cabal Therapy
Winter Orb
Fecundity
Absolute Law

I'm not really sure how to build the deck, which is why I've provided this large reference of options. I think I'd start with something like:

4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Eladamri, Lord of Leaves
4 Sylvan Messenger

...heavily considering
4 Aether Vial
4 Wirewood Herald
1 Caller of the Claw
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Eyeblight's Ending

...and then something like ~10 more nonland cards from the list above, including a way to deal copious amounts of damage (whether tokens, +1/+1 counters, lords, overruns, or whatever). Your Elves may be Crystalline, but they aren't blue, so you'd have a tough time using a blue disruption suite (no FoW etc), which leaves black. (And I'm pretty sure you want a disruption suite in a slower Elf deck like this one). Eladamri is Legendary, but he's so awesome (for now) that I'm fairly certain you want four. Besides the whole shroud thing, he also makes your army unblockable against Goyfs, which seems pretty huge (single handed game winner against Threshold like). Getting Eladamri and Messengers through is critical, which is why I'm inclined to use Vials, despite the temptation to just use more mana elves instead, which don't give you nearly as much resilience. Your main weakness which Eladamri doesn't deal with is Pyroclasm and other mass removal, hence the Herald-Caller package, though Absolute Law, Fecundity, and Prowess of the Fair can also help after boarding.

How would you build it?

[SuckerPunch]

I don't think it was a mistake. Lord creatures should belong to the tribe they help and should help themselves. So I doubt and hope that Wizards won't change the wording, esp given that elves isn't exactly breaking legacy in half.

That said, yes there's been work to get casual elves to be legacy viable.

I personally prefer the mono green builds. Yes, they're not disruptive, but they're a lot more broken.

And Lorywn added some other great eleves, both teh Wren's Run creatures for example that probably deserve to be played.

[Illissius]

I don't think it was a mistake. Lord creatures should belong to the tribe they help and should help themselves.

I happen to agree with this (the new Faerie lord being a 1/1 who only makes your other Faeries untargetable is retarded, and the difference between an awesome card and an awful one), but this isn't a consideration with the Oracle wording of existing cards. The only thing they care about is that they work as they were intended, say on the card, and within the rules, as far as possible. In this case, Eladamri certainly wasn't intended to make himself untargetable (just read the actual card), so it's definitely a mistake.

[satellites]

Here's a list I threw together today:

// Lands
3 [US] Gaea's Cradle
8 [10E] Forest (4)
3 [ON] Wirewood Lodge

// Creatures
3 [VI] Quirion Ranger
2 [ON] Wellwisher
4 [10E] Elvish Champion
2 [10E] Gaea's Herald
4 [ON] Elvish Vanguard
4 [UL] Multani's Acolyte
4 [IA] Fyndhorn Elves
3 [TE] Eladamri, Lord of Leaves
3 [EX] Skyshroud Elite
4 [LOR] Imperious Perfect
4 [10E] Llanowar Elves
2 [LOR] Lys Alana Huntmaster
4 [US] Priest of Titania

// Spells
4 [EX] Coat of Arms

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TE] Choke
SB: 3 [VI] City of Solitude
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [PLC] Seal of Primordium
SB: 2 [UD] Compost


Eladamri is ultra-hot in the deck, but the only problem is that there isn't much disruption. Though, generally, you can get a pretty huge Coat of Arms by turn 4-ish.

[Pinder]

Though, generally, you can get a pretty huge Coat of Arms by turn 4-ish.

I'm not really sure that the Coat of Arms is needed in a deck like this, it can usually win off the back of a couple of flipped Tribal Forcemages (which also grant trample, which is incredibly relevant) and/or cycled Gempalm Strider. 6/6 is just as good as 20/20 when you have a ton of them on the table. And each of the aforementioned cards gets nabbed with Messenger, which is also incredibly relevant.

[Happy Gilmore]

Here's a list I threw together today:

// Lands
3 [US] Gaea's Cradle
8 [10E] Forest (4)
3 [ON] Wirewood Lodge

// Creatures
3 [VI] Quirion Ranger
2 [ON] Wellwisher
4 [10E] Elvish Champion
2 [10E] Gaea's Herald
4 [ON] Elvish Vanguard
4 [UL] Multani's Acolyte
4 [IA] Fyndhorn Elves
3 [TE] Eladamri, Lord of Leaves
3 [EX] Skyshroud Elite
4 [LOR] Imperious Perfect
4 [10E] Llanowar Elves
2 [LOR] Lys Alana Huntmaster
4 [US] Priest of Titania

// Spells
4 [EX] Coat of Arms

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TE] Choke
SB: 3 [VI] City of Solitude
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [PLC] Seal of Primordium
SB: 2 [UD] Compost


Eladamri is ultra-hot in the deck, but the only problem is that there isn't much disruption. Though, generally, you can get a pretty huge Coat of Arms by turn 4-ish.

Seems like a perfect place to play Thorn of Amythyst, also with the new change to lords Elvish Champion seems better than Tribal forcemage by a long shot. Forestwalk is some kind of good against thresh.

[Aggro_zombies]

Ever thought about Silhana Ledgewalker? Unblockable and has Troll untargetability on its own, it's been some good in my casual elf deck. Btw, you can go for a combo finish with this deck by adding a single Wellwisher or the elf Soul Warden, then cast a huge Hurricane ftw. Bonus points for using Living Wish ==> Boseiju to do it.

[Wynk]

I've been tryin a :w::g: list with Gaddock Teegs. A :b: splash instead of :w: can offer Cabal Therapy, Duress, and Thoughtseize, but :w: offers Glowrider, Gaddock Teeg, and Mirror Entity.

//Mana//
3 chrome mox
4 savannah
4 windswepth heath
4 forests
2 land grant

//One Cost Elves//
2 Elves of Deep Shadow
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Quirion Ranger

//Two Cost Elves//
3 Bloodline Shaman
3 Eladamri, Lord of Leaves
2 Wirewood Herald
4 Priest of Titania

//Three Cost Elves//
1 Caller of the Claw
3 Elvish Champion
4 Imperious Perfect
4 Mirror Entity

//Four Cost Elf//
1 Sylvan Messenger

//Utility creature//
4 Gaddock Teeg

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Glowriders
SB: 4 Viridian zealots
SB: 4 EE
SB: 3 Night Soil

The inclusion of 6 elves that grant your other elves forestwalk creates a positive game situation vs. Thresh.

The combination of Priest of Titiania, Elf pumpers, and Mirror Entity can create a reliable Turn 4 win.

If I can cast Gaddock Teeg by turn 1-2 it may buy me a few turns againt combo and control. The board includes Glowriders and possibly Thorn of Amythyst to further delay combo/control. These can reliably be cast 2.

Night Soil is jank, but it can be online by turn 2 and reliably get rid of dredgers, Ichorids, and Tarmogoyfs in Cephalid Breakfast.

[MasterC]

Why don't you consider Wren's Run Packmaster? This card offers everything an Elves Deck was missing until Lorwyn release. He is a huge beatstick by itself, he is a win condition that can abuse the sick amount of mana elf decks usually create and most important, he is not shuffled away by Messenger and Bloodline Shaman.

Wren's Run Vanquisher: Same Question.

3/3 Deathtouch for G1 is ridiculous. It can apply early Pressure and kills everything that tries to attack us without wings.


A rough list:

4 Bayou
4 Windswept Heath
5 Forest
2 Gaea's Cradle

3 Llanowar Elves
3 Fyndhorn Elves
2 Elves of Deep Shadow
4 Priest of Titania
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Sylvan Messenger
2 Eladamri, Lord of Leafs
4 Gempalm Strider
4 Wren's Run Packmaster
4 Wren's Run Vanquisher
3 Bloodline Shaman

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Duress / Thoughtseize

SB:
4 Krosan Grip
3 Planar Void
4 Leyline of Lifeforce
4 Engineered Plague

[Barook]

While we can agree about good Wren's Run Vanquisher is in an aggro approach of the deck, I wonder why Skyshroud Elite is so ignored. In the current meta, it's pretty much guranteed that it's Kird Ape.

@Wynk: You run Mirror Entity, lots of Elves and no Cradle? This just seems wrong...

[Mordenkain]

I have tried Elves! as a deck before, and the problem I usually face is that the deck is not fast enough to warrant playing it over combo nor is disruptive enough to warrant play over goblins.

To not roll over and die to combo decks, you either needs to be faster and/or disrupt them. Elves! do neither. You would need to add black for Elves! to be playable, cabal therapy and duress/thoughtseize is a barely enough.

Even though the "new" elf lord is cool and all, he doesn't really solve the problems Elves! have imo, mainly being raced by combo and being beaten to death by mass removal. As mentioned, a black splash seems to be a decent solution, however, I think it won't be enough.

Now, I think Morningtide and the following blocks/series/whatever it's called nowadays might bring us some more busted elves, so it could be good to test to find an optimal decklist and hope we get som solutions.

For reference, I have a list of a more agro/combo orientated version of Elves! lying around, maybe it can give some help.

// Lands
3 Gaea's Cradle
14 Forest

// Creatures
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Priest of Titania
3 Wirewood Hivemaster
3 Fierce Empath
3 Skyshroud Poacher
4 Sylvan Messenger
3 Deranged Hermit
1 Brass Herald
1 Platinum Angel
1 Sundering Titan

// Spells
4 Food Chain

This is list was more a try of abusing Food Chain, a quest I have more or less abonded now though. However, Skyshroud Poacher + Deranged Hermit is savage.

- Mordenkain

EDIT: The most savage "elf" card I have ever played haven't been mentioned yet. Wirewood Symbiote is really crazy/retarded/stupidly good/<insert random expression here>. You should run it guys. Only downside is that it get shuffled away by messenger, however, the crazynes of the card more than makes up for it.

[Illissius]

The most savage "elf" card I have ever played haven't been mentioned yet. Wirewood Symbiote is really crazy/retarded/stupidly good/<insert random expression here>..

I intentionally didn't mention any cards which require you to target your Elves, seeing as the focus here is to try and build around Eladamri (there's already a thread for the "normal" Elves decks). Otherwise, yeah, Symbiote is amazing... maybe amazing enough to use despite the dissynergy, I don't know.

[Mordenkain]

I intentionally didn't mention any cards which require you to target your Elves, seeing as the focus here is to try and build around Eladamri (there's already a thread for the "normal" Elves decks). Otherwise, yeah, Symbiote is amazing... maybe amazing enough to use despite the dissynergy, I don't know.

Hmm, good call, I didn't even think about it needing to target an elf. I just have Wirewood Symbiote as an autoinclude whenever I make something with elves. Having a friend who played Survival Elves.dec for over a year I know the deadlines of the card.

Not to repeat my last post, but I think that excluding cards like Symbiote to include a stompy elf who saves doesn't solve any elves problems besides saving our dudes from Swords to Plowshares, which is a task Symbiote handles quite fatastic itself.

To make elves competive, you need to go AgroControl with it. It's not fast or resilient enough to stand on its own without disruptive backup. I think black is the best suited for this, and Lorwyn also indicates this with the printing of black elf cards. But at the same time, I think that Elves! are gonna need more "controlish" elves to be any good.

One thing I like about Lorwyn though, is the sexyness of a Sylvan Messenger grapping non-creature elf cards.

- Mordenkain

[Illissius]

Well, you can always target itself with the Symbiote if all you care about is the bounce, which could be, but that's not quite optimal.

[Kronicler]

I think the question is whether or not we use Aether Vial or just go the mana elf route. On one hand Vial is amazing because your creatures are uncounterable and can come into play at instant speed bla bla bla, but on the other hand it is actually pretty slow when compaired with 8 1cc mana elves and 4 priest. I guess I'll have to test a little bit.

Kronicler

EDIT: What do people think of the elvish harbringer? It does cost 3 and it puts the creature on top of your library rather than into your hand, but it still seems really good for finding Eladamri or a pump elf or forcemage to end the game.

[Tacosnape]

Every single list posted in this thread would be improved by adding 1 or more Pendelhavens.

[GreenOne]

IMO Elves can be pushed into 2 different ways:

The Combo:
A creature driven combo that makes loads of mana with Priest of Titania untapped multiple times by Wirewood Symbiote and Quirion Ranger, draws a lot of cards with Glimpse of Nature and Collective Unconscious, Living wishes for something like a "Fireball Guy" or a "Overrun Guy" and win. That can be done usually by turn 3-4, but the deck has no disruption at all and the goldfish is slower than Legacy standard combos. however, the deck can play like a so-so aggro deck as a plan B and a resolved draw spell is almost GG vs Control / Aggrocontrol. However, Pyroclasm etc. are almost GG for them.

The Aggro:
A version similar to goblins that abuses elves card advantage and has better beaters with Skyshroud Elite and the new 1G 3/3 Deathtouch, and that packs tribal removal and the same Mana Denial of goblins (4 Waste, 4 Ports).
This could be quite funny to try.

[Wynk]

@Barook Lol, I forgot all about the Cradles given that I don't own any.

Given the use of quirion rangers, I fell into the trap of avoiding non-forest lands. Pendlehaven may be a good choice, but given all the pumpers there aren't going to be lots of 1/1's on the table.

For the aggro version of elves, we could add 4 wastelands/4 ports, but given that goblins have problems with combo and is slowly being phased out of DTB status, Aggro elves has to either have better disruption or a faster clock.

[Kronicler]

Rangers target, so forget about them. Pendelhaven seem good in theory, but if we run 8 +1/+1 elves, which I definately think we should, then Pendelhaven will have pretty much 0 targets.

Here is what I think the core of the deck should be:

(virtual and actual) Card Advantage:
4 Bloodline Shaman (these guys seem incredible)
4 Sylvan Messenger
3 Eladamri (remember he is legendary)

Pump:
4 Elvish Champion
4 Imperious Perfect

Cheap Beats:
4 Wren Run's Vanquisher
4 Skyshroud Elite

Then we probably want to run the Harbinger from Lorwyn for tutor power and so that we can find Eladamri consistently. We also probably want some mana elves and 2 or so forcemages to finish off our opponents if the board is stalled. Wellwisher also seems pretty good against Breakfast as 1 or 2 turns with her online and a bunch of blockers on our side of the table and all of a sudden their ghoul isn't looking like such a great way to kill us. Finally we probably want Ports and Wastelands for disruption and Vials to go along with them.

My only problem with this deck is that it suffer's from Meathooks' problem in that it can easily be forced to over extend. Now granted this deck has infinity more card advantage than Meathooks which will allow it to recover much faster from a mass removal spell, but it still seems like a pretty big weakness.

Kronicler

[Illissius]

I'd much rather use Wirewood Herald (along with Cabal Therapy) than Harbinger (or, alternately, neither). Three mana for a 1/2 who doesn't even put cards in your hand is pretty weak. Wellwisher seems much better in a comboish version with haste and engines and untap effects and all that (might also apply to Bloodline Shaman), here I think it's just going to gain ~4ish life a turn which doesn't sound like enough to seriously hinder combo decks -- we're probably better off playing discard spells for :b: against them.

I'm also pretty sure I'd use four Eladamri, even if he's Legendary. Much of the time I expect games could play out like resolved Eladamri = win, drawing an extra Eladamri after they stop the first = win, drawing an extra Eladamri and getting it stuck in your hand = still win. If we had an honest to God version of Goblin Matron I'd be open to considering less, but our options with Elven tutors suck in comparison.

[Kronicler]

Yeah, I guess you are right about Harbinger. On another note, the problem with playing discard is that it makes both Bloodline Shaman and Sylvan Messenger much weaker. Same with Thorn of Amethyst of whatever it is called.

Kronicler

[Illissius]

On the other hand, you don't really need the staying power of Shamans and Messengers against combo, so the question is really how much of the disruption to play maindeck, and then you bring all the rest in from the sideboard. I also think we should stick to discard and graveyard hate for now rather than Thorns and Spheres, as long as Breakfast and Ichorid are in vogue as opposed to various flavours of Storm. I'd personally use Thoughtseize and Therapy in the main with a sideboard something like:

SB: 4 Duress
SB: 4 Planar Void
SB: 4 Choke
SB: 3 Gaddock Teeg

[kicks_422]

My only problem with this deck is that it suffer's from Meathooks' problem in that it can easily be forced to over extend. Now granted this deck has infinity more card advantage than Meathooks which will allow it to recover much faster from a mass removal spell, but it still seems like a pretty big weakness.


Then splash black for Prowess of the Fair. It also gives you room for Cabal Therapy (synergy!) and the ever-so-mentioned Thoughtseize. Maybe even Lys Alana Scarblade (gotta love that card name) for a pseudo Gempalm Incinerator.

I think going the Vial route with mana denial (Ports and Wastelands) to mirror what Goblins did in its prime deserves some testing, at least. This deck basically takes the synergy of the Goblin tribe and now mashes it with the pump and untargetability of Slivers... Pretty nice once you think about it.

I'll test it once I get back from our championship party... :cool:

[thefreakaccident]

I was thinking perhapes a GB survival/ELVES! thing to go on here...


4 cabal therapy
4 thoughtseize
3 eternal witness
4 llanwar elves
4 survival of the fittest
2 quirion ranger
1 roffellos, llanwar emissary
1 veridian shaman
1 squee goblin naboob
1 genesis
2 priest of titania
1 masticore
1 ravenous balath
4 elvish champion
4 Eldarami, lord of leaves
1 derranged hermit
3 imperious perfect

4 bayou
1 swamp
2 overgrown tomb
4 wooded foothills
2 windswept heath
2 bloodstained mire
4 forest

[Jak]

Personally, I can only see this deck doing well in a vial goblins shell. The better thing about elves is that the colors G and B are colors goblins would love to have. Being able to kill artifacts and enchantments and cheaply disrupt the opponent is amazing. It is also able to disruot the mana bases better. I think elves! is just bad when you have faster combo decks with more protection.

[Happy Gilmore]

Yeah, I guess you are right about Harbinger. On another note, the problem with playing discard is that it makes both Bloodline Shaman and Sylvan Messenger much weaker. Same with Thorn of Amethyst of whatever it is called.

Kronicler


I'm not sure the messenger, shaman package is needed. In many ways Eladamri allows for elves to out-agro thresh and prity much every other deck (except ichoird). Wirewood Herald is your best form of search and works well with Cabal Therapy. The timing is such that you get to play your disruption first anyway. And besides, paying :1: :b: for Thoughtseize/Duress/Cabal Therapy is fine assuming your opponent is affected more by the thorn then you are. You can easily turn this deck into a very effective agro control deck with a very solid threshold plan.


4 Eladamri, Lord of Leaves
4 Skyshroud Elete
4 Wirewood Herald
3 Gempalm Strider
4 Wren's Run Vanquisher
3 Elvish Champion
4 Llanowar Elves

4 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Thorn of Amythyst

4 Bayou
4 Chrome Mox
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
2 Overgrown Tomb
4 Forest


SB:
4 Yixlid Jailer
4 Krosan Grip
3 Tormod’s Crypt
4 Engineered Plague

I put this together last night after reading about Eladamri. I like how it stomps thresh into the ground if they are not main decking CB. You might not even need to run the mana elves at all.

[Kronicler]

You know what, that actually seems like the most interesting direction to take this deck. If we go the Vial / Waste / Port route, it will most likely be inferior to gobos, and if we go the balls to the walls card advantage / pump elves it will still most likely be inferior to gobos. This type of build on the other hand is new and fresh. While I don't really have anything to input on your list, Happy, are you sure that 2x Shockland is better than 2x Gilt Leaf Palace? While the palace can't be fetched, why would we ever fetch a shockland when we can just fetch a dual land? In other words, who cards if it can't be fetched.

Kronicler

P.S. Wirewood Herald + Cabal Therapy = tech :cool:

[Curby]

Eladamri is indeed awesome with the subtype change, but I wouldn't rule out Wirewood Symbiote entirely. Its only targeting requirement is that the target is a creature, so you can have it target itself. In other words, even when Eladamri is in play, you can bounce elves for combat tricks (put damage on the stack and bounce what would die) or just to recast them and trigger coming-into-play effects. He can also protect an Elf from sweepers.

When Eladamri's not in play, he can do all of that and untap your elves.

Instead of Prowess of the Fair, what about Caller of the Claw? You need to run mana elves and/or remember to leave mana open, but you can search for a 1-of Caller when your Wirewood Herald dies to a sweeper, and your tokens are twice as big. Herald also adds a surprise factor, but the fact that he makes Bears and not Elves is pretty significant unless you can swing for the win the next turn. Whether or not you can do that depends on whether he can handle a horde of bears and whether you've been playing a ton of elves to get the 10 or so tokens.


I like how it stomps thresh into the ground if they are not main decking CB.

Pardon the newbie, but CB?

[Mordenkain]

Pardon the newbie, but CB?

Counterbalance. (At least thats what I think).

[insertnamehere]

I am currently working on rebuilding the old Elf and Staff combo. You may want to figure in some of these cards:
Staff of Domination Infinate everything
Eladamri to the sideboard only to be used if needed
Tarmogoyf (it is green and only gets bigger)
The new card that gives elves +1/+1 in addition to the champion
Cradles are really not needed because once you get 5 or 6 creatures on the table it becomes useless.
Shyshroud poacher just good as vial except it searches through your library for an elf for 3

[godryk]

@Happy Gilmore: I think your list is the only one that seems a real aggrocontrol one. Though I have to say that Thorn of Amethyst belongs to the sideboard, as well as Duress, because I think the list has enough MD discard. Instead I'd include some extra removal (considering Wren's Run Packmaster as removal), allowing you to kill 'Goyf. I would try something like this:
-4 Thorn of amethyst
-2 Duress
+3 Smother
+3 Imperious Perfect/extra removal

I think that more pumping may result redundant and may be changed. I like a lot the low cost elves. Cabal Therapy+Wirewood Herald rocks. Gempalm Strider seems great in a metagame full of Threshold and Landstill.

Forestwalk+Shroud+Discard+Black Removal=AntiThresh.deck

P.S.: Fyndhorn Elves are cooler than Llanowar Elves.
P.S.2: God will punish us with genital herpes because we're suggesting not playing 'Goyf in a green deck...

[satellites]

Here's a more controllish type elfs deck. Mana denial and whatnot.

// Lands
4 [US] Gaea's Cradle
8 [10E] Forest (4)


// Creatures
3 Tribal Forcemage
3 [VI] Quirion Ranger
4 [10E] Elvish Champion
2 [10E] Gaea's Herald
4 [ON] Elvish Vanguard
4 [UL] Multani's Acolyte
4 [IA] Fyndhorn Elves
3 [TE] Eladamri, Lord of Leaves
4 [LOR] Imperious Perfect
2 [10E] Llanowar Elves
2 [LOR] Lys Alana Huntmaster
4 [US] Priest of Titania

// Spells
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Winter Orb
3 City of Solitude

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TE] Choke
SB: 3 Seedtime
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [PLC] Seal of Primordium
SB: 2 [UD] Compost


I'd want to try Smokestack in here instead of City, see how that works.
What with all the token making elfs, I'd imagine that Smokestack could be very painful.

[Barook]

// Lands
4 [US] Gaea's Cradle
8 [10E] Forest (4)
This seems so wrong - you're effectively running only 8 lands because Cradle is utterly useless without a creature in play.

Topic change - some food for thought:
Mana elves + Thorn of Amethyst + Root Maze

[satellites]

This seems so wrong - you're effectively running only 8 lands because Cradle is utterly useless without a creature in play.

Topic change - some food for thought:
Mana elves + Thorn of Amethyst + Root Maze

Root maze = yes!

Also...aside from the 8 forests, I'm also running mana elves. I tested the list I posted on the first page all weekend, and that ran 9 Forest, 3 Cradle, and 4 Lodge. I think I did OK with it. But for this one, I'm 2 cards over. So, I say, cut the Cities, add a Llanowar Elf.

This way, I've got 11 ways to make mana that aren't lands.

What should be cut for the Root Maze?

[Happy Gilmore]

When you mentioned Rootmaze and gilt-leaf palace it made me wonder about the exact wording on the land just in case it came into play first before the untap affect. Unfortunately it does not work that way. :rolleyes: The elf land is still a great idea, especially if your cutting fetches, which you will have to do. I was very impressed with Thorn in the main though, I don't think it should be moved to SB.

[Cait_Sith]

I was very impressed with Thorn in the main though, I don't think it should be moved to SB.

Honestly, Thorn is a pretty bad card. For it to be really good you'd need to run 4+ mana producing creatures. It would have be freaking ELF tribal. Wait...

I really agree with Gilmore here that Thorn is quite a bomb. Your mana producing elves can easily be held back by a creature, so use the them to cast spells around Thorn if nothing else. Between Cradle and 4-8 (Or even more thanks to Priest and the new Lorwyn mana elf).

As a random note, Wren's Run Packmaster is amazing with Cradle and Priest (or just Cradle, hell getting the thing out turn 3 is incredibly simple) but the real bomb is Wren's Run Vanquisher. 3/3 for 2 that can blow up anything? I have held back armies with Thornweald Archer (Which, by the way, could be testable) and it isn't nearly as strong as Vanquisher.

[Happy Gilmore]

I wanted to incorporate some changes that many have suggested so far, but I found it very difficult without posting another deck list. I've been bad about that lately.

4 Eladamri, Lord of Leaves
4 Skyshroud Elete
4 Wirewood Herald
4 Wren's Run Vanquisher
4 Elvish Champion
2 Elves of the Deep Shadow
3 Llanowar Elves

4 Thoughtseize
4 Root Maze
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Thorn of Amythyst

4 Bayou
4 Gilt Leaf Palace
4 Mosswort Bridge (tech!)
4 Forest
3 Overgrown Tomb


SB:
4 Yixlid Jailer
4 Krosan Grip
3 Tormod’s Crypt
4 Engineered Plague

It seems extremely easy to take advantage of Mosswort Bridge in this deck, and did anyone else realize that Wirewood Herald can get Gilt Leaf Ambush?

[raudo]

The more I think of it - Mirror Entity is just sick, sick, sick.

I think I just try the old Elves! list with Mirror Entities filling the random slots (Timberwatch Elf, Multani's Acolyte etc). Concordant Crossroad build gets very fast.

[kicks_422]

This build has been GREAT for me so far:

16 Forest
4 Wasteland

4 Llanowar Elves
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Eladamri, Lord of Leaves
4 Wren's Run Vanquisher
4 Elvish Harbinger
4 Elvish Champion
4 Imperious Perfect
4 Sylvan Messenger
4 Wren's Run Packmaster

4 Thorn of Amethyst

SB
4 Caller of the Claw
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Viridian Zealot

EDIT: I'd probably go -1 Eladamri, -1 Packmaster, +2 something... I'd like to keep the sexy curve of 8-12-12-8 though...

[Lemuria]

Maybe some aether vials?

[Illissius]

Happy Gilmore's deck looks intringuing, even if it's missing fun Sylvan Messenger action. You do realize that Mosswort Bridge comes into play tapped, though, right? I thought R&D had gone insane before I noticed the CIPT clause hidden in the reminder text. What's the point of running Wirewood Herald without any semblance of a toolbox? You don't have Caller, Ending, any of the many artifact and enchantment killers, or even Messenger. And is Elvish Champion better than Imperious Perfect?

[Happy Gilmore]

Happy Gilmore's deck looks intringuing, even if it's missing fun Sylvan Messenger action. You do realize that Mosswort Bridge comes into play tapped, though, right? I thought R&D had gone insane before I noticed the CIPT clause hidden in the reminder text. What's the point of running Wirewood Herald without any semblance of a toolbox? You don't have Caller, Ending, any of the many artifact and enchantment killers, or even Messenger. And is Elvish Champion better than Imperious Perfect?

Wow, I didn't notice that at all...that makes Bridge a lot worse than I thought. I think its safe to take out the bridges, coming into play tapped is enough of a drawback not to play it. Imperious Perfect may also be better than Champion, making 2/2 elves each turn seems very very good. I overlooked him completely and I feel stupid about it since I used him to rape face at the pre-release. Yes, he is probably better than Champion.

-4 Champion
+3 Imperious Perfect
+1 Caller of the Claw

[Silthyn]

I'm not too sure about Eladamri. If you run him, that means Quirion Ranger and Wirewood Symbiote gets weaker. Is it really worth it? I'm not sure, but the Forestwalk-ability is really good against Threshold :)

[Eldariel]

Elves win if your opponent cannot kill your Elves, or doesn't play combo. Eladamri tackles the first one. He'll slow you slightly down, but he'll guarantee your win.

[Lego]

Elves win if your opponent cannot kill your Elves, or doesn't play combo. Eladamri tackles the first one. He'll slow you slightly down, but he'll guarantee your win.

I'm not actually sure this is true. Pyroclasm still beats you. Bolt et all really don't seem to be that relevant, especially if you have Symbiote. You' just got too many good dues for it to matter.

[godryk]

Gempalm Strider in response to Pyroclasm seems techy in this deck and is also an interesting uncounterable pumping effect than can be very useful I've found it very interesting.

I like this deck, because it's sometimes like Meathooks with card advantage. Anyway I think the Gb plan is the best.

[Pinder]

I like this deck, because it's sometimes like Meathooks with card advantage. Anyway I think the Gb plan is the best.

Actually, it's better. You have the virtual card advantage that Eladamri gives you, plus the actual card advantage that Sylvan Messenger gives you.
I've always been a big fan of Elves!, Trinity Green and the like, and I think now that Eladamri protects himself as well, they could become truly viable.

[insertnamehere]

I have twiddled with several versions of elf based decks in the past. I think you can run as little 8 lands using E.S.G., lotus petal and land grant. I think it should be toyed with.

[Jak]

A list I have been thinking of.

Lands
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
4 Bayou
3 Forest
1 Pendelhaven

Non-Creatures
4 Aether Vial
4 Cabal Therapy

Mana Elves
3 Fyndhorn Elves
3 Elves of Deep Shadow

Creatures
4 Eldamri
4 Sylvan Messenger
4 Imperious Perfect
4 Skyshroud Elite
4 Wirewood Herald
1 Caller of the Claw
1 Tribal Forcemage
4 Wren's Run Vanquisher

SB
4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
4 Planar Void
3 Krosan Grip

I want to add a lot of cards in the board, but this is pretty good I think. 2 cards too much MD, but basically the frame is what I think would be best for an elf deck.

[Berzerked]

Lands
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
4 Bayou
3 Forest
1 Pendelhaven

Non-Creatures
4 Aether Vial
4 Cabal Therapy

Mana Elves
3 Fyndhorn Elves
3 Elves of Deep Shadow

Creatures
4 Eldamri
4 Sylvan Messenger
4 Imperious Perfect
4 Skyshroud Elite
4 Wirewood Herald
1 Caller of the Claw
1 Tribal Forcemage
4 Wren's Run Vanquisher


We are testing a very similar list with these changes:

-1 Wasteland
-4 Rishadan Port
-1 Imperious Perfect
-1 Tribal Forcemage

+1 Windswepth Heath
+1 Forest
+3 Thoughtseize

We opted for more discard instead of the LD route.
8 colorless lands interfered with turn2 Eladamri or turn2 discard+elf more often than you'd expect, and in most cases 22 land was just too much.
The addition of Thoughtseize MD helps improve our poorer matchups more than the LD package does.
Tribal Forcemage is ehh. Seems more like a win-more than anything.
Imperious Perfect seems like the weakest part of the deck. I'm thinking of dropping them and one of the Messengers for some meta hate...though I haven't thought what that might be yet.
Extirpate/Planar Void/Leyline of the Void/Tormod's Crypt/Phyrexian Furnace hit a lot of the meta.
Eyeblight's Ending seems interesting - attainable through Herald and Messenger to take out those Goyfs. It's semi over-costed, though, and Vanquisher fills the same roll.

Thoughts/Ideas?

[Kronicler]

I can't believe that Imperious Perfect feels weak. Not only does he pump all of your guys but he makes tokens every turn! He seems incredibly strong.

Kronicler

[Silthyn]

I've tested Elvish Harbinger a little. I find it great - Not only does it find Wren's Run Packmaster, Priest of Titania or any other elf you need, it produces black mana. Turn 2 Harbinger, Turn 3 Wren's Run Packmaster (Removing Harbinger for later use (like when they kill the Packmaster, which they have to in most cases)) seems very strong.

[insertnamehere]

I can't believe that Imperious Perfect feels weak. Not only does he pump all of your guys but he makes tokens every turn! He seems incredibly strong.

Kronicler

I think he is very useful except when Eladamri is in play. In regards to making the creature everyturn, the Packmaster does a better job.

[Curby]

I'd like to keep the sexy curve of 8-12-12-8 though...

I think you can slightly reduce the number of 2-drops, since your 1-drops are all mana elves and you can often accelerate into your 3-drops on the second turn.


I think he is very useful except when Eladamri is in play.

Eladamri conflicts with the Prefect?

[GreenOne]

I think he is very useful except when Eladamri is in play.

Can you explain this?



In regards to making the creature everyturn, the Packmaster does a better job.

The Packmaster makes Wolves and wants 3 mana. To take avantage of him as token creator you need to have at least 6 free mana a turn.

Imperious makes 2/2 Elves (sinergy anyone?), that can be untargettable and forestwallking if there's Eladamri. and can be 3/3 or more with multiples Imperious.

I think that imperious is better in creating tokens. That leaves us with a 5/5 for 4 that kills one elf when it comes into play vs a 2/2 for 3 that pumps all our elves and gets tapped almost each turn to make a token.

[insertnamehere]

Can you explain this?



The Packmaster makes Wolves and wants 3 mana. To take avantage of him as token creator you need to have at least 6 free mana a turn.

Imperious makes 2/2 Elves (sinergy anyone?), that can be untargettable and forestwallking if there's Eladamri. and can be 3/3 or more with multiples Imperious.

I think that imperious is better in creating tokens. That leaves us with a 5/5 for 4 that kills one elf when it comes into play vs a 2/2 for 3 that pumps all our elves and gets tapped almost each turn to make a token.

I made a mistake on Imperious, except for the fact he only creates 1 elf a turn where the Packmaster creates multiple with cradles and priests on the board.

[Silthyn]

Can you explain this?
That leaves us with a 5/5 for 4 that kills one elf when it comes into play...

False. It removes it from the game, and then returns it. Huge difference if you remove a messenger or Harbinger.

[Wynk]

The only problem with it is if you cast it with only one other elf in play, and then the opponent uses spot removal in response to the casting of it. It will kill both the original elf and the just cast Packmaster. Otherwise its a bomb, capable of killing tarmogoyfs galore with deathtouched wolves.

[Curby]

Huge difference if you remove a messenger or Harbinger.

Championing Caller of the Claw also works to combat some sweepers, but doesn't work against Flamebreak/Deed/Explosives since the Packmaster might not die.


The only problem with it is if you cast it with only one other elf in play, and then the opponent uses spot removal in response to the casting of it. It will kill both the original elf and the just cast Packmaster. Otherwise its a bomb, capable of killing tarmogoyfs galore with deathtouched wolves.

It's not difficult having two Elves in play, plus you're using Eladamri. However, without Priests and/or Cradles, you can't really abuse the Wolf-generating feature. Priests+Symbiotes+Packmasters would be really nutty, but otherwise a 3-drop that happens to make a 2+/2+ each turn and helps all elves is better than a 4-drop that makes a 2/2 each turn (without massive mana, you can't count on more).

[Silthyn]

Championing Caller of the Claw also works to combat some sweepers, but doesn't work against Flamebreak/Deed/Explosives since the Packmaster might not die.



It's not difficult having two Elves in play, plus you're using Eladamri. However, without Priests and/or Cradles, you can't really abuse the Wolf-generating feature. Priests+Symbiotes+Packmasters would be really nutty, but otherwise a 3-drop that happens to make a 2+/2+ each turn and helps all elves is better than a 4-drop that makes a 2/2 each turn (without massive mana, you can't count on more).

I heard Gaea's Cradle is broken with Packmaster, maybe 2 of those could be included in the list? ^_^

[kicks_422]

Gaea's Cradle is awesome with Packmaster... and only with Packmaster. If you don't have it, what are you going to do with all that mana? Most of the time lands and your mana elves provide you with all the mana you need in a non-combo oriented Elf deck.

Oh, and for the love of all things sane, don't use ^_^ .

[Wynk]

It's not difficult having two Elves in play, plus you're using Eladamri. However, without Priests and/or Cradles, you can't really abuse the Wolf-generating feature. Priests+Symbiotes+Packmasters would be really nutty, but otherwise a 3-drop that happens to make a 2+/2+ each turn and helps all elves is better than a 4-drop that makes a 2/2 each turn (without massive mana, you can't count on more).

Hey, you're preaching to the choir. When deciding whether to get Packmasters or Perfects, I preordered 4 Perfects.

[godryk]

Wouldn't it be nice to include a single copy of Volrath's Stronghold?

I see some decklists include a single copy of such lads as Pendelhaven, so, I thought of this nice card. I think it would be nice to replay Wren's Run Vanquisher or Wirewood Herald, as well as a countered Eladamri or Messenger.

[Berzerked]

I used to run it, but with only 19 lands (including 3 Wasteland and 1 Stronghold), the chances of not hitting G on turn1 or GG on turn2 was increased (not a lot, mind you, but enough that it annoyed me plenty). I felt it wasn't as strong as Waste, so I dropped it for a forest.

[rufus]

What about Nath of the Gilt-Leaf as a one of? I'm not sure whether he's really a win-more card, but he's rather beastly otherwise.

[from Cairo]

I used to run it, but with only 19 lands (including 3 Wasteland and 1 Stronghold), the chances of not hitting G on turn1 or GG on turn2 was increased (not a lot, mind you, but enough that it annoyed me plenty). I felt it wasn't as strong as Waste, so I dropped it for a forest.

I'm thinking of running Volrath's Stronghold and possibly Phyrexian Tower as 1-2 of and 2 of respectively, in the 3-4 colorless spots. I like Phyrexian Tower as it provides another sacrifice outlet for Herald, specifically a sacrifice outlet at instant speed. This allows for a few powerful plays, one- removing Bridges from Below against Ichorid, and two- sacing Herald to tutor up Eyeblight's Ending during Breakfast's attack step to kill Sutured Ghoul.

Without anything to back up Wasteland in a mana denial theme, how powerful has it as a 3 of been?


What about Nath of the Gilt-Leaf as a one of? I'm not sure whether he's really a win-more card, but he's rather beastly otherwise.

Seems way too slow, best you can do is turn 3 with him, and that requires pretty tight set up of turn 1 land, mana elf; turn two land, herald him to the top; turn 3 land Nath. People criticize Hypnotic Specter as being too slow as a 3cc drop and he is often paired with acceleration to make it into play turn one. Nath is essentially the same thing only 5cc and no evasion.

I think Gempalm Strider is the best win condition for the deck, its uncounterable and tutorable and synergizes with the fact that you play a bunch of worthless untargetable forestwalking dorks.

Currently this is the list I'm playing around with...

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
4 Bayou
4 Forest
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Volrath's Stronghold

4 Vial
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Eyeblight's Ending

4 Fyndhorn Elves
2 Elves of Deep Shadow
4 Wirewood Herald
4 Eladamri, Lord of Leaves
4 Wren's Run Vanquisher
1 Golgari Guildmage
4 Imperious Perfect
2 Elvish Champion
4 Sylvan Messengers
2 Gempalm Strider

[godryk]

I really like incluiding a single copy of Caller of the Claw, because I find it great against mass removal such as Pernicious Deed and similars. Specially combined with Wirewood Herald, you keep it on table and when the opponent blows the board you search for it and put 5 tokens...

Anyway, Gempalm Strider is an unexpected win condition that lets you go for the win.

[Happy Gilmore]

Wow, I never thought of using Herald like that, seems solid to say the least. And if your discard has done its job they should not have counters available to stop you. With crypt and Jailer SB I don't think that matchup will be too rough anyway.

[Berzerked]

Wasteland is there to make Threshold's life tougher. Considering it's currently "The Deck", I thought it might be beneficial to just go overboard hating it out initially, and then cut back slowly, until it's still a good matchup, but with enough space to make other matchups better.

I had actually been looking for another way to sac Herald, and Tower definitely looks interesting. Great interaction. You could even search for a Strider if you know you can push through a win right there.

Your list looks really tight too. I like that you dropped the Elites for more 3-drops. This smooths out the curve with the mana elves, and is more consistent and beneficial with Vial. I agree that Caller of the Claw should be a one of, probably in place of the Guild Mage (has he ever served a reasonably valuable purpose, other than saccing to Therapy?).
I actually prefer Perfect/Champion in such a large number. My main gripe with the triad of Perfects was that only one would be in play, and Pyroclasm would proceed to wreck me. With 6, there's an increased chance of dropping two, especially against Red Thresh.
I still like to see more MD disruption (specifically 3 Thoughtsieze, as it does nothing but excel in a deck like this), but I guess there's limited room.

[Galroth]

I can't remember who, but somebody mentioned the idea of Smokestack in elves. I thought there was some value in running with this idea briefly.

Adding some Stax elements, in particular Smokestack, Winter Orb, and Thorn of Amethyst would take the deck in a completely different direction than most builds discussed here. But I think it's worth a thought if nothing else.

Llanowards and Fyndhorns help power out any of these really quickly, and the drawback of Winter Orb is meaningless to mana elves. Smokestack's drawback is easily countered by the sheer number of creatures one decides to run, and even more so if a creature like Wirewood Hivemaster or Imperious Perfect is included. Wirewood Herald has some really hot synergy with Smokestack as well.

I think a build like this would also need to include some sort of draw to ensure it has considerably more permanents than the opponent. They probably don't even need to be large as long as there are so many that they're overwhelming.

A build I quickly tossed together on Apprentice and played a few hands:


LAND (18)
11x Forest
4x Ancient Tomb
3x City of Traitors
STAX (12)
4x Smokestack
4x Winter Orb
4x Thorn of Amethyst
ELVES (30)
4x Llanowar Elves
4x Fyndhorn Elves
4x Priest of Titania
3x Wirewood Hivemaster
4x Wirewood Herald
4x Sylvan Messenger
2x Bloodline Shaman
1x Caller of the Claw
1x Deranged Hermit
1x Eladamri, Lord of Leaves
2x Imperious Perfect

[kicks_422]

I like that concept. I especially like the synergy of Herald/Perfect and Smokestack

However... Only 1 Eladamri? Your deck as it stands looks like it has good game against control and combo, but I'm pretty unsold on aggro... I think all the pump Elves and 3-4 Eladamri are needed there.

[Galroth]

Could be. I really haven't tested it much. It was still pretty much in the idea stage. I was hoping that the sheer amount of numbers would be effective against opposing aggro decks. Thorn of Amethyst loses its value, but Winter Orb is still just as effective. Smokestack should take a notable larger toll on other aggro decks than elves, but would it be enough to combat opposing aggro decks. Surely it's not as good as against Control or Combo here.

What would you cut for more pump elves?

[from Cairo]

I agree that Caller of the Claw should be a one of, probably in place of the Guild Mage (has he ever served a reasonably valuable purpose, other than saccing to Therapy?).

Yea this is probably the right call, Gogari can be cute mid game saccing off Imperious Perfect tokens or Heralds to return a Strider or Messenger, but it's most likely win-more; where as Caller of the Claw answers a situation that we otherwise don't have much game against: mass removal.

[godryk]

Golgari Guildmage seems cute, you know, saccing Herlad to get Messenger back, and then sac Messenger next turn, but I think it's too mana intensive to let you abuse of it. I think Volrath's Stronghold makes the same better most of time.

I think a 3 Wasteland and 1 Volrath's Stronghold could be the right colorless lands configuration. Wasteland buys you a lot of time against Thresh and control decks so it's worth to include it.

Finally, I wouldl try to fit some copies of Thoughtseize...

[from Cairo]

Golgari Guildmage seems cute, you know, saccing Herlad to get Messenger back, and then sac Messenger next turn, but I think it's too mana intensive to let you abuse of it. I think Volrath's Stronghold makes the same better most of time.

I agree, it's likely too mana intensive to really abuse. The obvious plus side to Golgari is that its tutorable (and untargetable under Eladamri) so its a 1 of you can rely on when you need recursion, unlike 1 of Stronghold, which with no library manipulation or raw card drawing you likely will not be able reliably tutor, and it's susceptible to opposing Wastelands. Golgari also will generate card quality reliably while not tying up you're draw step.

Again all that said, I still would agree that the deck doesn't have enough mana production to go nuts with his ability, so its likely not worth the card slot. It would be very powerful in a Gaea's Cradle / Priest of Titania build, but I think thats a completely different Elves!.dec.

[Eldariel]

By the way, Elvish Spirit Guide is now an Elf, mayhap something to consider at least for the fast builds?

[Illissius]

Wait, it wasn't before? I'm pretty sure it was...

[Happy Gilmore]

By the way, Elvish Spirit Guide is now an Elf, mayhap something to consider at least for the fast builds?

For serial??!? Praise the lord! This deck gets better and better.

P.S. it was a spirit before the change.

[Barook]

By the way, Elvish Spirit Guide is now an Elf, mayhap something to consider at least for the fast builds?

Wow, that is definitely nice. The main question is how you can utilize it? Stuff like T1 Thorn or T2 Packmaster sounds quite sexy.

@Happy Gilmore: It's still a spirit - an elf spirit...

[Happy Gilmore]

a spirit - an elf spirit...

Isn't it wierd that elves who according to some lore, are immortal, also have immortal souls?

Elf spirits :rolleyes:

[Barook]

Isn't it wierd that elves who according to some lore, are immortal, also have immortal souls?

This is Magic - a game where it is totally normal to be killed by weapon-wielding Birds. Look for logic and flavor in a different game.

Plus, just because they're immortal doesn't mean you can't slay them.

Back to topic: Is it just me or does ESG also improve Cradle due to being an independent mana source?

Anyway, how good could it be ESG in combo elves? Dropping a mana elf followed by a Concordant Crossroads does look like another interesting start.

[Happy Gilmore]

At this point I have two deck lists in my file under Legacy Elves. I think the first one probably has more umph, but the second has its advantages as well. I'm not sold on the slower Messenger package, even with ESG the concept is slow. If Goblins is having trouble being fast enough I don't see how the slow version can be better than the disruption version.

4 Eladamri, Lord of Leaves
4 Skyshroud Elete
4 Wirewood Herald
4 Wren's Run Vanquisher
4 Imperious Perfect
1 Caller of the Claw
4 Llanowar Elves

4 Aether Vial
4 Thoughtseize
1 Eyeblight's Ending
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Thorn of Amythyst

4 Bayou
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept heath
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Phyrexian Tower
5 Forest


SB:
4 Yixlid Jailer
4 Krosan Grip
3 Tormod’s Crypt
4 Umezawa’s Jitte


#2


4 Wasteland
14 Forests

4 Root Maze
4 Thorn of Amythyst
4 Aether Vial

4 Llanowar Elves
4 Sylvan Messenger
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Eladmri, lord of leaves
4 Wren’s Run Vanquisher
4 Skyshroud Elete
4 Imperious Perfect
2 Elvish Champion

SB:
4 Jitte
3 Powder Keg
4 Krosan Grip
4 Tormod’s Crypt


I'm posting both for reference since I am so busy I practically can't get to any testing sessions much less tournaments right now.

[Curby]

Btw, while the Gatherer's current Oracle text does in fact say
Legendary Creature - Elf Warrior the rulings window still says
10/4/2004 This card is not an Elf. In fact, it has no creature subtype

It's obvious to me that the new Oracle text makes it clear that he's an Elf, but why's the ruling still there? Will it be struck out or overridden with a new ruling? How could I convince someone in a casual (no judge available) game that he's an Elf? The Star City Games "Ask the Judge" section is similarly out of date.

[Wynk]

Well, the Gatherer is the most up to date database on Magic cards. Thus, if it says Eladamri is an elf, he's an elf until Wizards decides to change his text again. So he's good until then.

In regards to Casual games, its kinda going a bit far, but print out the Gatherer page with Eladamri's text and find a way to get the current date as well. Unless they accuse you of shopping the picture, that's pretty conclusive.

[Illissius]

The ruling is there because they haven't removed it yet, yeah, pretty much. Recall similar confusion we had with Flash.

[Happy Gilmore]

Shroud is an excellent ability, but forestwalk can be even better. Theshold has no way of dealing with it outside of pyroclasm. They need Trops to play threats and by doing so they turn Eladamri into Crystaline + Winged Sliver all at once. He is the best reason to play Elves over Slivers at this point especially because of the synergy with Herald and the ease of finding him. Black and green give the deck a variety of options to explore such as an elf removal spell that kills Sutured Ghoul. I'm very hopefull about this deck, it could turn out to be very very good.

[godryk]

I'm very hopefull about this deck, it could turn out to be very very good.

This can be built as a real antiThreshold deck.

BTW forestwalk is also nice against Landstill allowing you to go trough manlands, making them to desperately search for a board sweeper, and then we must keep a Herald on the table to search a Caller of the Claw or a new Rofellos if they are low at life.

Anyway I think that we need some extra pumping other than Imperious Perfect if we face a lot of Pyroclasm, probably 2 Champion or 2 Gempalm Strider.

[insertnamehere]

Here is a deck I have been tweaking.

14 Forest (I do not think Gaea's Cradle is really needed)

Mana Producers
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Fyndhorn Elves (-1 when the Eladamri's arrive)
3 Priest of Titania

Anti E-Plague Elves
3 Elvish Champion
4 Imperious Perfect

Creature Producers
4 Wren's Run Packmaster (-1 when the Eladamri's arrive)
3 Lys Alana Huntmaster

Goyf Killers
4 Thornweald Archer
3 Wren's Run Vanquisher
other
3 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Eledamri, Lord of Leaves (I am waiting for 2 more)

Search Abilities
3 Sylvan Messanger
3 Elvish Harbinger

Sideboard (Tentative)
4 Leyline of the Void (if I add black into the deck)
4 Leyline (Green)
4 Aether Vial
3 ?

[Curby]

Here is a deck I have been tweaking.



Interesting, my own build looks a lot like this, except I'm splashing red for Goblin Bombardment and Kaervek's Torch to make (further) use of all the tokens and mana.

This build seems a little vulnerable... either Symbiote or Eladamri should be a 4-of to protect against targeted removal. Wirewood Herald seems better than Harbinger in a mono-green deck, and works better with Caller of the Claw to recover from sweepers.

One more thing, with all the mana and untap/bounce effects, something like Glimpse of Nature would be great. And in that case, something like Concordant Crossroads may be more useful acceleration than the Spirit Guide.

All of this turns the deck into more of a casual/fun combo-ish build that might end up drawing and casting the entire deck in a turn, rather than the more reserved aggro/control GB builds. I just like the idea of flinging 10 elves at the dome to reveal a formerly-Championed Caller, then flinging 10 bears at the dome. :tongue:

[technogeek5000]

This deck seems strong so ill try and throw out a list.

lands
15 forests

4 wrens run vanquisher
3 eledamri
4 llanowar elves
4 imperious perfect
4 elvish champion
4 priest of titania
4 ESG
3 fyndhorn elves
4 jagged scar archers(nasty little fucker. 3 mana for a creature as big or bigger then goyf)
4 Sylvan messenger
3 elvish vangaurd

disruption:
4 thorn of amethyst

This In the board you can pack all sorts of hate but i think this is how the maindeck shoudl look like. It beats almost all forms of aggro, lots of control and doesnt keel over to combo.

[insertnamehere]

Elvish Vanguard is way tooo slow for the deck. I have tried him in the deck and he his very slow getting big.

[Cait_Sith]

Honestly, just use Gaea's Cradle. With Imperious Perfect and Wren's Run Packmaster you will be generating DOZENS of 2/2+ tokens every turn. Vanguard may get big eventually, but big is trumped by a never ending army (that includes deathtouch) that tends to solve problems NOW (plus they add inevitability.)

[badjuju]

If you guys aren't aware, there's been an actual elf deck floating around that has placed more than once in large events. Here is the most recent list:

Glimpse of Elves
by Oliver Voll
# Event: Bazaar-Liga Legacy September 2007
# Source: Bazaar of Wonders
# Date: 16.09.2007
# Place: 6th
# Participants: 76

creature [32]
1 Elvish Champion
3 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Llanowar Elves
3 Llanowar Sentinel
4 Multani's Acolyte
4 Priest of Titania
4 Quirion Ranger
2 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
4 Sylvan Messenger
3 Taunting Elf

sorcery [4]
4 Glimpse of Nature

artifact [7]
4 Coat of Arms
3 Staff of Domination

land [17]
2 Gaea's Cradle
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Savannah
2 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath

Sideboard:

4 Absolute Law
1 Armageddon
1 Tsabo's Web
1 Enlightened Tutor
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Choke
(missing 3 cards? 3 more tutors?)

I thought it was a fluke at first, but to pilot your way through a 76-man tournament to top 8(more than once) is quite a feat. The deck basically plays out the first few turns, then "combos" off with virtually infinite mana thanks to Staff of Domination + Priest of Titania. There are tons of little synergies here and there, but the deck basically just produces a ridiculous amount of mana (granted the elves stay alive - you can literally go infinite), draw a ridiculous amount of cards with glimpse, then plays all the Coat of Arms, and attack with huge elves (forcing everything on the other side of the board to block Taunting Elf).

During his first top 8, Oliver ran mono green and had Elvish Lyrist MB. Since then he has changed to include white board options and add the combo system with Glimpse.

I'm hesitant to say this is a competitive deck, just based on the principles that it loses to mass removal (ie pyroclasm) and well....it's elves. Game 2 is obviously shored up by including Absolute Law with Enlightened Tutor, but is that enough to make this deck tournament viable?

[insertnamehere]

I have played something like this before. It won lots until it stopped working. Wait a second, with for forest lands in the deck why is Rofellos in there??:confused:

[Curby]

Wait a second, with for forest lands in the deck why is Rofellos in there??:confused:

Yeah, Rofellos needs 5 Forests to go infinite with Staff. It's probably a whole lot easier to get 5 Elves into play (with one being Priest) than 5 Forests, even if you're running a bunch of Forests.

Anyway, the question of whether to go aggro or combo came up in the last popular elves thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6748). Now with the black splash we've got an aggro/control (or aggro/disrupt) build as well. Perhaps separate threads are needed to prevent endless hijacking. Or not.

That tourney-winning deck seems to be an aggro-combo build: something that would generally beat down but with the nuts draw would just explode to infinite. How would you update it for Lorwyn?

[insertnamehere]

Yeah, Rofellos needs 5 Forests to go infinite with Staff. It's probably a whole lot easier to get 5 Elves into play (with one being Priest) than 5 Forests, even if you're running a bunch of Forests.

Anyway, the question of whether to go aggro or combo came up in the last popular elves thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6748). Now with the black splash we've got an aggro/control (or aggro/disrupt) build as well. Perhaps separate threads are needed to prevent endless hijacking. Or not.

That tourney-winning deck seems to be an aggro-combo build: something that would generally beat down but with the nuts draw would just explode to infinite. How would you update it for Lorwyn?

Packmasters, for one would make an improvement, Concordant Crossroads and Primal Forcemage(an elf) make a great combo with infinate elves. 5/5 wolves with deathtouch is not bad. The only problem I had was dropping a messanger and revealing the staff I needed. As far as black I would add Leylines and maybe magus of the abyss or some discard in the side.

[badjuju]

The list on the website is missing 3 lands for some reason. My guess would be the 3 missing lands are forests.

I don't see a point in adding Packmasters. You don't need the wolves cause you just explode on one turn and play your _entire_ deck. I kid you not. Adding discard and whatnot only dillutes the deck's consistency (because you want to reveal elves off of Sylvan Messenger), but if there is a lot of pyroclasms or and such, switching to golgari for therapy might not be a bad idea.

Then again, you're right about the hijacking and there are several ways to go about playing this deck. My argument is that the combo variant has placed well in large tournaments, giving it a sort of performance credibility. I'm not sure what I'd update the list with (as I don't really play the elf deck, I just thought it was interesting to point out), but I'm not particularly fond of anything from Lorwyn.

[Curby]

It needs testing, but I think Elves can be reasonably resistant to "toughness-based" sweepers. Gempalm Strider, Tribal Forcemage, and 8 +1/+1 creatures help provide a buffer against Pyroclasm and even Flamebreak. Mana Elves aside, a lot are 2/2, helping against Engineered Plague. Casting costs are reasonably varied at 1 through 3 or even 4, providing resistance against Explosives. Symbiote and Eladamri give protection (or provide alternate targets) against targeted removal. Glimpses, Slates, and Messengers help you actually get more of these tools into play. When all else fails, grab a Caller and swing with a bunch of bears.

I'm speaking in optimistic terms, as it's easy to cast a first-turn Pyroclasm or second-turn Flamebreak and really slow you down, but Elves really don't seem quite so fragile anymore.

EDIT:


If you guys aren't aware, there's been an actual elf deck floating around that has placed more than once in large events. Here is the most recent list:

Glimpse of Elves
by Oliver Voll


Just for reference, an earlier version of the deck:

http://www.germagic.de/dc/deck.php?id=9585

Also on that site is a deck that splashes red, like me. :cool:

If you're thinking of including non-elf win conditions, Sylvan Messenger seems less good. For 4 mana you get on average 2 Elves in hand and a 2/2 body. Glimpse of Nature, especially with Symbiote, will all but guarantee at least 2 cards, and could draw the deck especially when cast in multiples. Importantly, it lets you keep those non-elf cards like Staff, Coat of Arms, Krosan Grip. If you're running a nutty mana build, also consider Slate of Ancestry, which at the expense of being a non-Elf permanent can usually put enough power in your hand to win the game in 1-2 turns.

Since no-one's posted a Gr list yet, here's a little something I'm working on. It's horribly unoptimized partially because I simply don't have the cards yet:

// Land (16)
10 Forest
4 Taiga
2 Windswept Heath

// Mana Guys (12)
4 Priest of Titania
3 Fyndhorn Elves
3 Llanowar Elves
2 Birchlore Rangers

// Beatdown/Token Patrol (10)
4 Imperious Perfect
4 Wren's Run Vanquisher
2 Wren's Run Packmaster

// Utility and Resilience (6)
4 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Eladamri, Lord of Leaves
1 Caller of the Claw

// Draw and Tutor (10)
3 Wirewood Herald
3 Sylvan Messenger
2 Slate of Ancestry
2 Glimpse of Nature

// Fun Stuff (6)
2 Mob Justice
2 Goblin Bombardment
2 Regrowth

This deck simply loves going nuts with Priest and Symbiote for a ton of tokens, so I'll have to see how adding more Eladamris affects things. It's still great to be able to bounce for combat trickery and such (think Hibernation Sliver), which you can do even with the Lord out. There are too few 4-ofs, which is often the mark of an unrefined deck. Lys Alana Huntmaster or Wirewood Hivemaster might be a better deal than Packmaster with enough Elves, as Packmaster consumes a ton of mana and the nutty mana combos might not be online. Regrowth is probably too janky, but can Fork a Glimpse to draw the deck or get something that was discarded to Slate or against discard.

I'm thinking the deck could use at least one more Goblin Bombardment, a couple more Land sources of Red, and settle on Glimpses or Slates (or run both and take out Messengers). Wren's Run Vanquisher could be taken out if we're going for a combo build, perhaps for more token generators. I might actually end up using Staff, cause it might get me infinite life/mana/cards with a Priest, which will let me draw into Bombardment and a Token generator for infinite damage. When running Glimpses it's important to keep at least 30 creatures in the deck so on average 2 Glimpses will let you draw the deck (simply bounce and recast an Elf to keep it going when you draw two land).

[insertnamehere]

The advantage of the Priest/Staff of Dom. combo is you can generate enough mana to build a ton of Wolves. Add in Primal Forcemage(s) wit Concordant Crossroads and you get giant Wolves that are unstoppable.

[Happy Gilmore]

All the list mentioned running staff based combos are so ridiculously slow and lose to every form of control and combo deck imaginable. Thesh only has to counter Priest and then bring the beats. Cephalid Breakfast laughs and wins earlier, and the same is true with TES/Belcher/ Permanent Waves. If this deck has any chance in Legacy it has to interact with the opponent in a large way. That means playing more than just 4 Thorn and thinking it will be enough. Last time I checked most Combo decks are packing answers, and some can win through multiple discard spells. It has to be assumed that goal is to make a build that can win a tournament. The decline of goblins has made it clear that a pure agro strategy is ineffective in legacy currently. Therefore, extrapolating this evidence tells us that any deck with less power than goblins (as an agro) deck is unviable. So lets figure out what this tells us when building Crystalline Elves.

A pure agro Strategy is not viable, i.e. more than 4 and less than 20 disruption spells are necessary
A deck with upwards of 30+ creatures does not provide enough room to run the disruption necessary; therefore cards like Sylvan Messenger may be sub optimal.
Needing more than 4 creatures on the board to function is an unrealistic strategy in a format where every deck including Combo has answers.
Mana intensive builds, like the ones playing Staff, are unplayable because of the points mentioned above. Therefore, no Priest/Gaea's Cradle decks.
Splashing is limited to Blue (for Counter magic), Black (for discard and graveyard hate), and possibly White (for Gaddock, Chant, Abayence, etc)So what are our options, and what is the card pool looking like at this point? What threats do we run? What spells?

Starting with Spells/Creatures for the secondary color(s):

Colorless
Aether Vial
Thorn of Amythyst
Jitte
Powder Keg/EE
Chalice of the Void (possible with the addition
of ESG being an elf)
Tormod's Crypt


White
Abeyance
Orim's Chant
Mana Tithe
Swords to Plowshares
Oblivion Ring
Glowrider
Gaddock Teeg
(I probably left some out, I wouldn't say this list is comprahensive)


Black
Cabal Therapy
Duress
Thoughtseize
Engineered Plague
Yixlid Jailer
Eyeblight Ending
Smother
(Various removal spells)

Blue
Force of Will
Daze
Stifle
Extract (its a stretch but needs to be mentioned)
Brainstorm (+other cantrips)
Gaea's Skyfolk

Green (non-elf)
Root Maze
Krosan Grip
Seal of Primordium
(Various Creatures)

Now lets look at the Elf tribe and see what it has to offer.

Eladamri, Lord of Leaves
Skyshroud Elete
Wirewood Herald
Wren's Run Vanquisher
Imperious Perfect
Caller of the Claw
Elvish Champion
Wren's Run Packmaster
Llanowar Elves
Elvish Spirit Guide
Gempalm Strider
Fyndhorn Elves
Elves of the Deep Shadow
Elvish Harbinger
Elvish Vanguard
Gilt Leaf Ambush
Sylvan Messenger
Thornweald Archer
Viridian Zealot
Viridian Shaman

I’m not saying that there are only a few select ways to build Crystalline Elves. I am however suggesting that in order for the deck to be tournament viable it has to avoid cards and strategies that fall in the category of “cool.” This might be taking all the fun out of it, and I apologize. I love Coat of Arms just as much of the next guy, but when I spend money on tournament entry I want to assume that there is some chance, no matter how small, that I can win it. That means being able to beat the best decks out there. It is unacceptable to conceding game one (to any deck) because I have no relevant answers or a strategy that works. This analysis was very useful for me to focus my direction of development and I hope it generates a brainstorm for most of you. It never occurred to me that GW could be an option.

Crystalline Elves (Gw)

4 Eladamri, Lord of Leaves
4 Skyshroud Elete
4 Wren's Run Vanquisher
4 Imperious Perfect
3 Llanowar Elves
3 Gempalm Strider
4 Gaddock Teeg
3 Elvish Sprit Guide

4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thorn of Amythyst

4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
4 Horizon Canopy
1 Temple Garden
6 Forest

SB:
3 Glowrider
4 Krosan Grip
4 Tormod’s Crypt
4 Umezawa’s Jitte

Numbers could be fudged a bit but I like the concept. Then again GW benefits very little from running the elf engine. It may just make more sense to run a dedicated GW agro control deck.

[Wynk]

I like your :g::w: list Happy Gilmore. I like the black splash but think white could be very strong as well. If it helps for a comparison, take a look at my list on the first page (a bit outdated now) for another :g::w: elf deck that uses taxing effects. (though mostly sideboarded)

:g::w: may find these cares very useful vs. combo/control:
1. Gaddock Teeg
2. Glowrider
3. Thorn of Amythyst
4. Abeyance and Chant are too reactive, but they may serve a function
5. absolute law (it means a likely win vs. goblins and helps vs. both burn/pyroclasm

Note that Elves can cast turn 3 answers on turn 2 reliably, thus boosting the number of relevant combo hate cards that normally would be too slow to be useful.

[godryk]

I agree with every word that Happy Gilmore said, elves tend to be cool, we must stop that natural tendency to do cool things and focus on going competitive. Anyway, I'm not an expert on combo elven-based decks but I think that, at least, we should go on different threads. I would say Crystalline Elves are aggrocontrol decks that were born after Eladamri became Crystalline Sliver. With all due respect, a pair of early 2/2 with forestwalk and shroud are much more powerfull in the current format than trying to combo off in the mid/lategame.

That said, I think we should focus on what elves do we want, especially:
-How many turn one mana-elves do we want? 4-8? Llanowar Elves, Fyndorn Elves or even Elves of the Deep Shadow (obviously The Dark ones, for much cooler art) are common options, but we must consider as well ESG, for turn 1 Eladamri or Herald (what a cool turn one lackey answer!).
-Skyshroud Ellite, hot or not? I think it's really nice, because we are going to an aggrocontrol build, so we want good power/toughness drops.
-How many pump elves do we want? 4/6/8? I think that Imperious Perfect is 4-of because of its secondary ability could help us to block big boys every turn. Anyway, having big elves is important for a deck that wins in the combat step, so I really consider running a pair of elvish champion for
extra punping and redundant forestwalk wich is huge to race Threshold and most of Landstill builds (then it's all about Pernicious). That said, extra pumping isn't completely necesary and depends on disponible slots
-Massive pumping FTW? The only massive pumping I can seriously think about is Gempalm Strider which is an instant speed uncounterable win condition, as well as protecting againt Pyroclasm, as we have said.
-Draw/Card Advantage? Wirewood Herald? Sylvan Messenger? I must say YES, although it depends on how many elves we play. IMO Herald makes the deck more consistent, blocking or being sacrified to Therapy to search for Eladamri, Vanquisher if a Goyf shows up or just searching for pumping if nothing better to do. Anyway I think it's only an autoinclude in black-splashed lists. Sylvan Messenger is more debatable.
-Win conditions? Expensive elves other than Messenger? I must say NO, tournament experience has shown that aggrocontrol decks doesn't need finishers as mystic enforcer, tomstalker and similars, of course they are good, but not necessary, wich means that we can put them out and get more room for disruption. I would include a single copy of Caller of the Claw wich, I really think is the best answer this deck has againt Pernicious Deed and Wrath of Good, specially combined with Wirewood Herald.

Then I would say that the essential elves are:
Eladamri Lord of Leaves
Imperious Perfect
Wren Run's Vanquisher
Skyshoud Ellite
Wirewood Herald
Llanowar Elves

Talking about splashes, I think that white and gree ones are really worth, but I still prefer the black one. I'll try to build a decent list.

[Happy Gilmore]

Why not Gbw? Cut the Swords from the list and add Cabal Therapy. A SB of 4 STP 4 Jitte 3 Krosan Grip 4 Yixlid Jailer. That should get all the bases covered. On paper a list like that could have game against Combo, Thresh, Ichorid/Cephalid Breakfast, Landstill, and practically every agro deck because of Eladamri. And post SB you have atleast 4 cards vs. each one of those decks.

[badjuju]

@Happy Gilmore

Understand that I didn't post the staff decklist because I thought it was "cool". I posted it because it has placed multiple times in large-scale events, whereas I've never seen any other elf variants come even close. Having achieved such, I think it's rather ignorant to dismiss it right off the bat.

I think trying to go aggro-control is fine and dandy, but what makes this any more powerful than Thresh? What happens when you try to make "cool" decks competitive is you start realizing that the core set of "cool" cards are miles behind the upper tier cards.

Either way, not trying to make a rainy day for anyone, just saying that the staff list is worth looking at - not to be brushed aside, especially with how it handles things post-board.

[Happy Gilmore]

@Happy Gilmore

Understand that I didn't post the staff decklist because I thought it was "cool". I posted it because it has placed multiple times in large-scale events, whereas I've never seen any other elf variants come even close. Having achieved such, I think it's rather ignorant to dismiss it right off the bat.

I think trying to go aggro-control is fine and dandy, but what makes this any more powerful than Thresh? What happens when you try to make "cool" decks competitive is you start realizing that the core set of "cool" cards are miles behind the upper tier cards.

Either way, not trying to make a rainy day for anyone, just saying that the staff list is worth looking at - not to be brushed aside, especially with how it handles things post-board.

I think Eladamri Changes that quite drastically. You have essentially won the game if he hits the board against Thresh in Game 1. The matchup against Thresh is better than playing the mirror match.

As far as staff combo goes....any deck with 4x Coat of Arms that gets into top 8 is either really lucky or is part of a very underdeveloped metagame. The only Elves list I have ever seen do well (in America anyway) is the T8 deck from Legacy worlds a couple of years ago. It used Concordant Crossroads and had a turn 3 kill. Turning elves into a combo is subject to ridicule because it offers no advantages over other combo decks or a dedicated agro Control strategy. Combo is much a lot more prevelant now than ever before and staff combo has no disruption MD against it. The reason I am agruing for taking elves in this new direction is the addition of not only the errata but Wren's run Vanquisher, and Imperious Perfect which are excellent.

[Curby]

As far as staff combo goes....any deck with 4x Coat of Arms that gets into top 8 is either really lucky or is part of a very underdeveloped metagame.

I wonder if you actually meant that. Tapping two land and a Priest for a Coat and swinging with a pair of 4/4 Llanowars isn't a combo move: it's an aggro move. Adding Coat to a Staff combo build gives the opponent yet another must-counter/must-remove spell (it's no longer as simple as Kill-the-Priest), and bolsters the aggro gameplan when it doesn't draw/resolve a Staff.

I certainly agree that pure-combo Elves! lacks many things that other combo decks have, among which are consistency, speed, built-in disruption, and built-in protection against disruption. However, an aggro-combo strategy gives the deck flexibility. Again, T8ing two 70+ events is noteworthy, especially because it is an unusual build. While that feat may be impossible in your meta, "developed differently" is different than "underdeveloped." You might very well have intimate knowledge of the Spanish Legacy scene, but I'd be hesitant to call it underdeveloped.

Again, I'm not saying that Elf combo is good. I'm not even saying that the Coat/Staff aggro-combo build is good or viable in today's American Legacy meta. However, I am wondering if you're jumping to conclusions too quickly. Your post never mentions why Oliver's deck can never work. You say it lacks disruption, but can't that be added? It might in fact never work, but something that did as well as that deck at least deserves something more than point-blank dismissal.

IMHO :smile:

[insertnamehere]

In my opinion Combo Elves biggest problem is Counter Magic. Leyline of Lifeforce gets your creatures out but there is nothing to stop them from countering your staff of Domination except for Xantid Swarm but that is straying aay from Elves. Choke may help if you get it out early enough.

[Happy Gilmore]

I wonder if you actually meant that. Tapping two land and a Priest for a Coat and swinging with a pair of 4/4 Llanowars isn't a combo move: it's an aggro move. Adding Coat to a Staff combo build gives the opponent yet another must-counter/must-remove spell (it's no longer as simple as Kill-the-Priest), and bolsters the aggro gameplan when it doesn't draw/resolve a Staff.

I certainly agree that pure-combo Elves! lacks many things that other combo decks have, among which are consistency, speed, built-in disruption, and built-in protection against disruption. However, an aggro-combo strategy gives the deck flexibility. Again, T8ing two 70+ events is noteworthy, especially because it is an unusual build. While that feat may be impossible in your meta, "developed differently" is different than "underdeveloped." You might very well have intimate knowledge of the Spanish Legacy scene, but I'd be hesitant to call it underdeveloped.

Again, I'm not saying that Elf combo is good. I'm not even saying that the Coat/Staff aggro-combo build is good or viable in today's American Legacy meta. However, I am wondering if you're jumping to conclusions too quickly. Your post never mentions why Oliver's deck can never work. You say it lacks disruption, but can't that be added? It might in fact never work, but something that did as well as that deck at least deserves something more than point-blank dismissal.

IMHO :smile:

If the subject is Crystalline Elves (Eladamri.dec) tell me how Oliver's list can benefit from his inclusion? After going off the only card the deck fears is WoG and Eladari can't really help it there. Yes, I'm aware that he protects mana creatures from dying early on, but if you cast him turn 2 of a mana elf the earliest you can then combo is turn 4. The fastest Oliver's deck can combo is Turn 3 with a turn 4 win, assuming no disruption and a perfect hand. Name one Combo deck that can't beat that gold fish. I can't bring myself to develop a list which scoops game 1 to a significant part of the metagame. I also don't think its possible to rectify this problem without hurting the integrity of the Staff Combo. Therefore, as far as Crystaline Elves goes, starting anew seems correct. Staff combo may have merit but I think it belongs in its own thread.

[Illissius]

When I ask myself, "what does this have over Goblins?", the answer is Eladamri. When I ask myself, "what does this have over Slivers?", the answer is Sylvan Messenger. I don't think things like mana elves, Herald, Elite, Vanquisher, or Perfect's other ability are nearly as significant, or in any case they don't remotely compensate for blue cards (Force, Brainstorm) or Lackey, Warchief and gang. It is this logic which leads me to believe that any successful version of the deck has to use both of these cards to good effect. If anyone has a different way of thinking about it, I'm interested in hearing it.

[Curby]

Staff combo may have merit but I think it belongs in its own thread.

That's a good point. We're not really talking about combo here. Hijacking an Elf thread seems hard to avoid. :rolleyes:


When I ask myself, "what does this have over Goblins?", the answer is Eladamri. When I ask myself, "what does this have over Slivers?", the answer is Sylvan Messenger. I don't think things like mana elves, Herald, Elite, Vanquisher, or Perfect's other ability are nearly as significant, or in any case they don't remotely compensate for blue cards (Force, Brainstorm) or Lackey, Warchief and gang. It is this logic which leads me to believe that any successful version of the deck has to use both of these cards to good effect. If anyone has a different way of thinking about it, I'm interested in hearing it.

It's true that Eladamri and Messenger are both good, but I think the logic is slightly flawed. Eladamri with a bunch of 1/1 mana elves can't fight a ground war. Messenger and a bunch of huge elves is too slow. Tribes work as well as they do because of synergy and different critters helping each other. Slivers can work with as few as 16 creatures. As a decklist starts feeling tight because you're only using the best of the best, you can be sure that you'll only be using creatures that are indispensable, and I'm not sure that Messenger will even make the cut. On the other hand, Vanquisher and Perfect seem like key parts of any modern Elves build that even pretends it can go aggro.

Messenger gets less important especially as we move away from an Elf-heavy build that overextends as a matter of course. As we use fewer and fewer elves, only keeping the most important, it is (1) less efficient at filling our hand because it has more chances to miss, and (2) less necessary as we don't actually need all those elves. Trample is less important without Timberwatch Elf, 2/2 for 3G is pretty horrible unless it can do something amazing, and the less Elves we run the less amazing it is. Remember Striped Bears?

As for the second point, do we even need it? Not only does a more reserved aggro-control deck only use the best combat and utility Elves to begin with, it has more ways of disrupting the opponent or otherwise protecting them, so it can do more with less. Instead of drawing more Elves when you already have enough, why not draw a utility spell to slow the opponent and disrupt their removal? Why rebuild from a sweeper you could have avoided?

I'm mostly just playing devil's advocate, as Messenger really is pretty damn good anyway. However, Elves do have other library manipulators they can consider, and Messenger may no longer be as clear a choice as it was before.

[godryk]

Sylvan Messenger has been discussed and I think there are two versions of Crystalline Elves, the one more controllish, with a higher curve, and the one more beatdown, with more efficient threats.

That siad, I must admit that I feel a bit dissapointed about Sylvan Messenger. I think it's too slow, and when we are able to play it we should have been able to play many smaller elves, being very efficient. The difference between Goblins and Elves is that they run things like Lackey or Piledriver that allowed them to recover from the tempo loss of things like Ringleader. Of course it fuels our hand and may be included, but I won't think it's needed in a G/b list, where Duress/Thoughtseize/Cabl Therapy buy us a lot of time.

If we talk about monogreen then I think it's an autoinclude, because we have no better ways to gain tempo.

[Illissius]

kirbysdl: I'll answer with a question I've already asked: Without Messenger, what prevents the deck from just being a bad version of CounterSliver? With the exception of Eladamri, the Slivers are stronger cards than their Elven equivalents, and even if you would argue otherwise, Brainstorm and Force of Will surely make the comparison lopsided.

In essence, I'm not saying Elves with Messenger is good (it may or may not be); I'm saying Elves without it can't be. This is just rampant theorycraft, though, so I'd love to be proven wrong.

[Happy Gilmore]

kirbysdl: I'll answer with a question I've already asked: Without Messenger, what prevents the deck from just being a bad version of CounterSliver? With the exception of Eladamri, the Slivers are stronger cards than their Elven equivalents, and even if you would argue otherwise, Brainstorm and Force of Will surely make the comparison lopsided.

In essence, I'm not saying Elves with Messenger is good (it may or may not be); I'm saying Elves without it can't be. This is just rampant theorycraft, though, so I'd love to be proven wrong.

I'm not so sure that Elves is strictly worse than Countersliver as an agro control deck. First off, the elves by themselves are better than any sliver out there. Elves now have enough variation to be good both on their own and together.

There is more room for elves (as a tribe) to improve since Wizards will be printing more in the future, Slives does not have this advantage.
Eladamri is both Crystaline Sliver plus Winged Sliver in the matchups where it matters.
Wren's Run Vanquisher is a 3/3 for 2 with deathtouch. Which means he can kill tarmogoyf by himself. This would be impossible with slivers.
Skysroud Elete is a 2/3 for 1 on his own.
Caller of the Claw is a more efficient way to combat sweepers because it adds a tremendous amount of power to the board, ready to attack the next turn.
Imperious Perfect is a one card powerhouse that literally needs nothing else to make him good.
And Wirewood Herald is way better than either Eladamri's Call or Homing Sliver. I personally think he is a good substitute for Messenger in Crystaline Elves.Yes you give up blue, but you gain so much as well. Gaddock Teeg, Cabal Therapy, and Thorn are all very good. This combination is still unproven in either testing or tournament but I have high hopes. Maybe, blue is just neccessary in Legacy to win. I would like to think that not every deck is striclty worse if they don't run 4xFoW, 4xBrainstorm. I'm hoping elves will turn out to be competetive without blue. Although, maybe non-blue stratgies are unfeasable.

[Curby]

First off, the elves by themselves are better than any sliver out there. Elves now have enough variation to be good both on their own and together.

This is certainly true, but how tight can the creature package get? Compare Elves to other tribe decks:

Goblins tends to run a lot of Goblins, and the odd Vial might be the only Duressable card. However, this works: we have Goblins for combat, Goblins for removal, Goblins for search, Goblins for direct damage. Elves cannot do this, because it lacks (creature) removal and disruption elements within its creatures.

Sliver aggro-control generally runs 17 creatures, and good builds might feature as few as 15. We have 8x Muscle, 4x Crystalline, and a few combat evasion and combat trickery slivers such as Winged, Hibernation, and Talon. Note that Slivers for removal, card drawing, and disruption are not used. Instead, the deck depends on other cards to do that, but it means that we can get by with very few creatures. If Elves are really better 1 for 1, it should be possible to make a 15-17 Elf package that can compete in power and speed, thus freeing up a huge portion of the deck for utility/removal/disruption.

And not really tribes, but:

Thresh: these creatures are so undercosted in terms of size/mana that they can often stand on their own. This lets Thresh run an insanely tight creature package and instead concentrate on card quality and disruption. The more I think about it, the more Thresh seems like a traditional board control deck with a few finishers. Of course, it runs 6ish bombs instead of 2 and slows the opponent more than controls the board.

Death and Taxes is like the Goblin plan but with even stronger removal and disruption at the expense of losing library manipulation.

What's the point? Good decks cannot rely on creatures unless they have both combat strength as well as general utility in terms of disruption/removal. With 10 Elves (I think) that pump themselves or others, Elves can dominate combat but unless we equip Vanquisher with a Viridian Longbow and run Viridian Zealot, there's no removal and no disruption. We've also discarded the combo idea for the moment. So we swing towards the Sliver/Thresh plan of running a creature-light build, but is that even possible with Elves? Sure Perfect is better than Muscle Sliver, but it's also slower, and we're shying away from mana elves because the point is now to free up slots.

Ultimately, the question is how far the Elves package can be slimmed down to make room for more support spells while maintaining combat strength. Of course you might argue the need to do this, but the alternative looks like it would use a Priest and a Staff. :tongue:

[Illissius]

Elves do have Eyeblight's Ending, as well as the changelings (Nameless Inversion, Crib Swap). They're not creatures, but are Elves. Granted, these are not exactly efficient, so it's a lucky thing we can use Wirewood Herald to search for them (along with Viridian Zealot/Shaman). There's also Thornscape Battlemage.

And yeah, it seems we have three models we could follow:

Goblins
CounterSliver
Combo Elves

I remain sceptical that Elves can beat the first two at their own game (but again, please prove me wrong), and the third has historically sucked and doesn't mesh with Eladamri (who happens to be the subject of this thread). Can we find a fourth? Personally, I'm wondering if there isn't a solid middle ground to be found between Goblins and Slivers -- cutting the mana denial aspect and using mana elves would let you skimp on lands quite a bit compared to Goblins, making room for 8-12 disruption (discard) spells, while still retaining enough Elves to make effective use of tribal effects (Lords, Messengers, etc.).

EDIT -- Of the other two, I do think the CounterSliver model has more potential. And what if we do run blue?

4 Skyshroud Elite
4 Wren's Run Vanquisher
4 Gaea's Skyfolk
4 Coiling Oracle
4 Eladamri, Lord of Leaves
4 Imperious Perfect
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
stuff

It doesn't seem like it could compensate for eight Muscles and Hibernations at first glance, but hey, it's an idea. In a black version, could Thornweald Archer be worth running alongside Vanquishers?

[Happy Gilmore]

Elves do have Eyeblight's Ending, as well as the changelings (Nameless Inversion, Crib Swap). They're not creatures, but are Elves. Granted, these are not exactly efficient, so it's a lucky thing we can use Wirewood Herald to search for them (along with Viridian Zealot/Shaman). There's also Thornscape Battlemage.

And yeah, it seems we have three models we could follow:

Goblins
CounterSliver
Combo Elves

I remain sceptical that Elves can beat the first two at their own game (but again, please prove me wrong), and the third has historically sucked and doesn't mesh with Eladamri (who happens to be the subject of this thread). Can we find a fourth? Personally, I'm wondering if there isn't a solid middle ground to be found between Goblins and Slivers -- cutting the mana denial aspect and using mana elves would let you skimp on lands quite a bit compared to Goblins, making room for 8-12 disruption (discard) spells, while still retaining enough Elves to make effective use of tribal effects (Lords, Messengers, etc.).

EDIT -- Of the other two, I do think the CounterSliver model has more potential. And what if we do run blue?

4 Skyshroud Elite
4 Wren's Run Vanquisher
4 Gaea's Skyfolk
4 Coiling Oracle
4 Eladamri, Lord of Leaves
4 Imperious Perfect
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
stuff

It doesn't seem like it could compensate for eight Muscles and Hibernations at first glance, but hey, it's an idea. In a black version, could Thornweald Archer be worth running alongside Vanquishers?

I like your UG list, but how about adding Black as well? There is so much to gain by having Cabal Therapy and Wirewood herald. I agree with you on thornweald, he is a real problem for a lot of decks.

[Illissius]

Perhaps, but you still need 20+ blue cards and lands (the mana curve being actually higher than Threshold and Slivers thanks to Perfect). The list above has 20 blue cards and maybe five or six open slots, so you could add Herald or Therapy, but not both without cutting into Force fodder or the better Elves. The other main considerations for the remaining slots are probably Spell Snare, Archer, Duress/Thoughtseize, Ponder, maybe Champion or Vial, and hell, Tarmogoyf.

[thefreakaccident]

4 bayou
4 wooded foothills
4 overgrown tomb

4 llanwar elves
4 fyndhorn elves

4 Eldarmi, lord of leaves
4 elvish champion
4 wirewood herald
4 elvish champion
4 sylvan messengar
4 imperious perfect
1 viridian zealot

3 eyeblight's ending
4 thoughtseize
4 cabal therapy
4 land grant


This seems like it would fit into what you guys have been talking about... take what you will of it.

[Maveric78f]

I think that the blue elves are far better than the black ones. I also believe that counterspells are better than discard in legacy.

I also think that Champion should definitely fit in the deck (but not in *8) because it's at the same time the winged and the muscled in a tarmo-dominated format. I'm not sure about the elite, even less if you play counterspells.

My intuition would lead me to this list :
Green elves (24) :
4 Llanowar elves
4 Fyndhorn elves
4 Elvish Champion
4 Wren's Run Vanquisher
4 Eladamri, Lord of Leaves
4 Imperious Perfect

Blue elves (8) :
4 Gaea's Skyfolk
4 Coiling Oracle

Blue cards (12) :
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder/Wirewood Symbiote

Lands (16) :
4*Tropical
1*Breeding Pool
4*Wooded
4*Windswept
3*Forest

I would to include also the insect bouncer of elves: Wirewood Symbiote (it can make combat tricks, additionnal mana, save elves, draw more with oracle, bounce a blue elve for a FoW, etc) but I can't find room. Maybe -4 ponder +4 Wirewood Symbiote, as the blue elves in play can feed the FoW.

[Tao]

Do you really need 8 Mana Elves? Your curve ends at 3 and you have many turn 2 plays and other turn 1 plays, so you could maybe cut 4 Mana Elves and add Symbiote for them.

[Maveric78f]

Well, you can't rely on having 2 lands in opening hand. Moreover they fairly quickly become an untargettable stompy guy. Thank you for reminding me the name of symbiote by the way.

[Illissius]

I mentioned a hypothetical build which fits in between the Goblins and Slivers models a few posts back; here's my first shot at one:

4 Llanowar Elves
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Wren's Run Vanquisher
4 Wirewood Herald
4 Eladamri, Lord of Leaves
4 Imperious Perfect
4 Sylvan Messenger
1 Tribal Forcemage / Gempalm Strider
1 Caller of the Claw
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Eyeblight's Ending
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
4 Aether Vial
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bayou
2 Forest
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void / Planar Void
SB: 4 Engineered Plague
SB: 4 Choke
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 1 Elf Replica

What do you think? My only concern is speed; Imperious Perfect isn't Goblin Piledriver, and Fyndhorn Elves isn't Goblin Lackey (and, um, Duress isn't Warchief?). But that's what you trade for the better disruption (and Eladamri), I suppose.




I think that the blue elves are far better than the black ones. I also believe that counterspells are better than discard in legacy.


Well, yeah. But black elves are actually green elves, because you don't have to run them. The only reason blue forces the otherwise subpar blue Elves is Force. You don't have to pitch a black card to Duress, Thoughtseize, or Therapy.

[largebrandon]

The only thing I can see which would benefit elves would be coiling oracle, Fow, Brainstorm and intruder alarm (is able to create a LOT of mana).

[Maveric78f]

The skyfolk can help too I think. But I admit that green-only elves are better.

[Happy Gilmore]

10 discard spells may be a little extreme. I would probably either cut them for Thorns (good against Combo) or for more Endings which is essentially like increasing your elf count. At 3cc its better at killing a goyf when they have counterbalance on the board. Also 14 mana sources seems.....umm...a little low, even with 8 mana elves. Your getting into the territory of not having a land in your oppening hand consistently. 16 is about as low as I would want to go.

[insertnamehere]

I definetly think mono green can be as good as Goblins. All LOL's aside going aggro green can easily take down Goblins if played right, the combo version is much slower against it though.

[Happy Gilmore]

I definetly think mono green can be as good as Goblins. All LOL's aside going aggro green can easily take down Goblins if played right, the combo version is much slower against it though.

This is my favorite M-G version of the deck:

4 Imperious Perfect
4 Eladamri
4 Vanquisher
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Sylvan Messenger
4 Caller of the Claw
4 Elvish Champion

4 Trinisphere
4 Thorn of Amythyst
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Chrome Mox

4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
9 Forest

Best Artifact agro deck I have tested so far.

[Berzerked]

This is my favorite M-G version of the deck:

4 Imperious Perfect
4 Eladamri
4 Vanquisher
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Sylvan Messenger
4 Caller of the Claw
4 Elvish Champion

4 Trinisphere
4 Thorn of Amythyst
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Chrome Mox

4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
9 Forest

Best Artifact agro deck I have tested so far.

That looks awesome. I've been trying to fit CotV in a number of creature shells (considering it thrashes most of the meta), but can't find a consistent enough build. How has it been treating you? Also, 4 Caller?

[technogeek5000]

Ok so i revamped my list. now its sort of a mix between slivers and gobbos and has the maindeck mana denial stradegy that can be played while beating.

14 Forests
3 wasteland
2 Gae's Cradle

4 Priest of titania
4 Llanowar elves
4 ESG
2 Fyndhorn
4 Wrens run vanquisher
4 Imperious perfect
3 Elvish champion
4 Jagged scar archers
4 Sylvan messenger
4 Eladamri

4 Thorn of amethyst

4 Choke (god this card is fun, when you have waste and thorn with this you start to lock people down)
4 Leyline
4 seal of primadorium
3 Another tax effect i think.

Thoughts

[insertnamehere]

Looks good, but I still feel that cradle is not really needed with the amount of elves in the deck. The priests with LLanowar and fyndhorn are enough to accelerate you.

[Happy Gilmore]

That looks awesome. I've been trying to fit CotV in a number of creature shells (considering it thrashes most of the meta), but can't find a consistent enough build. How has it been treating you? Also, 4 Caller?

I'm not sold on the callers completely, but I certainly think that running Packmaster is incorrect. Its just too easy to put yourself in a bad situation. I think its simply the best possible creature for the slot.

[technogeek5000]

For my list i was wondering whats better oin the sideboard: 3 more tax effects (if so what... sphere, port) or 3 jittes. for reference here is my board.
4 Choke
4 Leyline
4 seal of primadorium
3 Another tax effect i think.

Also i was wondering if my maindeck was running enough control. Goblins ran about 7 mana denial effects and it fell off for a while. should i run ports or something maindeck. Or is it fine.

[Berzerked]

I'd say Lleyline is probably an auto-include. Krosan grip is almost always better than Seal (I say almost because there might be one situation where this doesn't hold true, and I just can't think of it right now). Choke seems decent; I consistently thrash this deck using Landstill, but I'm sure there's a better option. Jitte I would not suggest, just because of Eladamri, but it could be a good back-up plan for when he gets countered or you just don't draw him.

[insertnamehere]

I'd say Lleyline is probably an auto-include. Krosan grip is almost always better than Seal (I say almost because there might be one situation where this doesn't hold true, and I just can't think of it right now). Choke seems decent; I consistently thrash this deck using Landstill, but I'm sure there's a better option. Jitte I would not suggest, just because of Eladamri, but it could be a good back-up plan for when he gets countered or you just don't draw him.

That is why the 4 missing cards in the sideboard should be vial

[Berzerked]

Wow, I didn't even notice Vial wasn't in the MB. What's up with that? With as many creatures as Elves runs, and with Blue-based control being so prevalent, I wouldn't dream of dropping Vial. Plus it lets you pull off a bunch of useful combat tricks.

[thefreakaccident]

The best version of ELVES! by far that I have ever seen in action is probably this...

4 Aether Vial
4 concordent crossroads
4 fyndhorn elves
4 llanwar elves
4 elvish champion
4 wirewood herald
4 sylvan messanger
4 priest of titania
4 land grant
3 quirion ranger
1 geia's cradle
7 forest
4 windsept heath
3 eldarami, lord of leaves
2 caller of the claw
4 bloodline shaman


I just played against this deck with UWG threshold and lost in tournament play... it simply gets too many threats on the board for thresh to handle... it also gains forestwalk which also harms threshold... Board sweepers are less than effective, since they will lead to a tutored swarm of bears... I have seen this exact build get turn 2 wins (very hard to get, and rare, but I have seen it happen before!)..

[Kuma]

I've been playing this deck on MWS, and it has been exceeding all expectations. This deck has a hard time losing to any deck that plays Forests. The one thing I've been wondering is why no Tarmogoyf in these lists? Sure, he's not an elf, but he's the best beater in the format. I've been favoring the B/G version of the deck because of its ability to make Tarmogoyf huge through discard, and because pure aggro isn't the way to go given the meta.

Here's what I've been running.
Land (18)
4 Bayou
4 Gilt-Leaf Palace
2 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Swamp
3 Forest

Creatures (28)
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
3 Skyshroud Elite
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wren's Run Vanquisher
4 Eladamri, Lord of Leaves
4 Wirewood Herald
4 Imperious Perfect
1 Caller of the Claw

Other (14)
4 Aether Vial
4 Thoughtseize
3 Eyeblight's Ending
3 Cabal Therapy

Sideboard
3 Pithing Needle
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Krosan Grip
2 Duress

Gilt-Leaf Palace hasn't been a problem yet, but I'd probably cut it in a Wasteland heavy meta. Eyeblight's Ending plus discard makes Tarmo huge while taking out the opposition's Tarmos, and is tutorable with Wirewood Herald. Therapy and Phyrexian Tower make good sac outlets for Herald. I haven't had huge problems with sweepers and plagues thanks to Herald and Caller. Engineered Plague turns Herald into Demonic Tutor which you can use to get a Perfect to counteract the Plague. He also lets you get caller after a Deed goes off.

Man I wish I could fit some Dark Confidant into this deck.

I've been beating some really good decks like WUBG Landstill, Faerie Stompy, and White Stax. This deck really has potential.

First Source post after months of lurking!

[Illissius]

Thanks for reporting! How has Elvish Spirit Guide been treating you? The deck goes for consistency rather than explosivesness, so it seems like an odd fit.

I'd swap an Ending for the last Therapy (and maybe a second for a better removal spell -- you can still Herald for it, and none of your other tribal stuff really interacts with it), and add an artifact and enchantment killing Elf somewhere between main and side (Elf Replica can kill Plague, unlike most of them), ... and you don't seem to have a way to fetch the Swamp, making it questionable, but otherwise, your build seems pretty good. How big do your Tarmogoyfs usually get, and how often do they get instantly removed while you have an Eladamri in play?

[Kuma]

Elvish Spirit Guide has been very good. It has led to some ridiculous plays like turn 1: Bayou, Thoughtseize, RFG ESG, Aether Vial. The fact he can beat for 2 or 3 late game has mattered from time to time. I do have one Bloodstained Mire for Swamp fetching, but I'm not convinced the Swamp is necessary either since most of the black costs one mana and comes out before Wasteland etc.

Tarmo is usually a 3/4 when cast, but depending on how much discard I have he's grown as big as a 6/7 thanks to Eyeblight's Ending (Tribal Instant). They haven't been instantly removed with an Eladamri in play yet, but I don't think I've played enough games to determine if that's going to be a problem or not. I've been a big fan of Tarmogoyf in the deck.

Usually, Plague is only a speedbump for this deck. I usually go fetch an Imperious Perfect and just play through. 5 mana seems like a lot for Elf Replica, but then again having an artifact in the yard helps Tarmo, so I'll give it a try.

EDIT: I'm not sure if it has been mentioned yet, but Elvish Spirit Guide is now a Creature - Elf Spirit.

[technogeek5000]

I got second at the side tourney at TMLO. Ill see how it goes tommorow. I used the list that i posted here in the tourney and will be changing the board around for tommorow. 1 quick thing: Thorn is the MVP of this deck, even over eladamri (which is also crazy broken). A mainboarded one sided sphere of resistance is completely ridiculous against this decks bad matchups.

Edit: is it realy. If so then i would have 1 won of my matches that i lost.

[Happy Gilmore]

I've been playing this deck on MWS, and it has been exceeding all expectations. This deck has a hard time losing to any deck that plays Forests. The one thing I've been wondering is why no Tarmogoyf in these lists? Sure, he's not an elf, but he's the best beater in the format. I've been favoring the B/G version of the deck because of its ability to make Tarmogoyf huge through discard, and because pure aggro isn't the way to go given the meta.

Here's what I've been running.
Land (18)
4 Bayou
4 Gilt-Leaf Palace
2 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Swamp
3 Forest

Creatures (28)
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
3 Skyshroud Elite
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wren's Run Vanquisher
4 Eladamri, Lord of Leaves
4 Wirewood Herald
4 Imperious Perfect
1 Caller of the Claw

Other (14)
4 Aether Vial
4 Thoughtseize
3 Eyeblight's Ending
3 Cabal Therapy

Sideboard
3 Pithing Needle
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Krosan Grip
2 Duress

Gilt-Leaf Palace hasn't been a problem yet, but I'd probably cut it in a Wasteland heavy meta. Eyeblight's Ending plus discard makes Tarmo huge while taking out the opposition's Tarmos, and is tutorable with Wirewood Herald. Therapy and Phyrexian Tower make good sac outlets for Herald. I haven't had huge problems with sweepers and plagues thanks to Herald and Caller. Engineered Plague turns Herald into Demonic Tutor which you can use to get a Perfect to counteract the Plague. He also lets you get caller after a Deed goes off.

Man I wish I could fit some Dark Confidant into this deck.

I've been beating some really good decks like WUBG Landstill, Faerie Stompy, and White Stax. This deck really has potential.

First Source post after months of lurking!

That list looks excellent. My only recomendation is to fit Thorn somewhere, SB or Main. And I think Yixlid is better against Breafast and Ichorid than layline since they board in answers to enchantments but only have a few to deal with creatures.

And the only way plague really hurts this deck is if they get two of them. The only creature one plague can kill is Herald, and ironically most of the time you want it dead anyway.

[Kuma]

I got second at the side tourney at TMLO. Ill see how it goes tommorow. I used the list that i posted here in the tourney and will be changing the board around for tommorow. 1 quick thing: Thorn is the MVP of this deck, even over eladamri (which is also crazy broken). A mainboarded one sided sphere of resistance is completely ridiculous against this decks bad matchups.

Edit: is it realy. If so then i would have 1 won of my matches that i lost.

Yup

http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=3134

As for Thorn, what significant matchups does it improve besides Storm Combo? The Thresh matchup seems strong enough already.

[Happy Gilmore]

Yup

http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=3134

As for Thorn, what significant matchups does it improve besides Storm Combo? The Thresh matchup seems strong enough already.

I think the storm matchup is reason enough, atleast for the SB.

4 Thorn of Amythyst
4 Yixlid Jailer
4 Krosan Grip
3 Jitte

I like the changes you made to my original list. Adding Tarmogoyf to everything green deck is getting kind of old, but seems worth it in this case.

[insertnamehere]

If you can get up enough tokens going alter of Dementia could really hurt your opponent also.

[Curby]

If you can get up enough tokens going alter of Dementia could really hurt your opponent also.

That's why I like Goblin Bombardment. If I have a bunch of critters, the direct damage is likely faster than trying to mill them. The deck tries to win using damage anyway, so I figure I might as well use a synergistic strategy. Of course Bombardment requires a(nother) splash. :rolleyes:

[insertnamehere]

That's why I like Goblin Bombardment. If I have a bunch of critters, the direct damage is likely faster than trying to mill them. The deck tries to win using damage anyway, so I figure I might as well use a synergistic strategy. Of course Bombardment requires a(nother) splash. :rolleyes:

The alter works great with Leyline of the void

[Happy Gilmore]

No offense, but altar seems like jank, and conditional jank at that. Its great if you have a bunch of elf tokens....but if you have a bunch of tokens your winning anyway.

[technogeek5000]

Im sry i didnt post anything about day two of TMLO. I was 3-1 until i lost to jeff folinus in 3. I beat survival through eladamri alone. I lost to goyf sligh but i found out that chalice of the void is a absolute fucking wrecking ball because they run like 30 1cc spells and this deck also runs thorn maindeck (atleast my build does). I beat landstill in under 5 minutes from both games combined. I raced his triple plauge game two by playing champion and 2x llanowar when i had double jagged out for the exact amount of damage. the game with goblins was realy close all three times. Game 1 we both build up armies and we both make mistakes but mine were a little worse. Game 2 i overwhelm him with superior ringleaders giving 4-3-and 2 i believe. Game three was extremely close. I had lethal damage in my next turn but he topped sharpshooter at the last second to finish me (or i think so, i had to take a call while he was doing all of this so i didnt get the specifics). And for my last game i lost to landstill in 2 because of lots of mass removal. I realy liked the deck and if i could have beaten gekoratel then i would have been able to draw into the top 8. I realy like how the deck performed and I believe it has the tools to become realy strong. And theres always Morningtide to look forward to.

[MeddlingMage]

Did you run the same deck as listed?

[technogeek5000]

My list was the same except i made a small change to the sideboard. -1 grip, -3 tsabo's web, +4 chalice.

Oh and i forgot about round 4. My opponent was playing breakfast. On his second turn i notice he doesnt play a second land so i decide to hold on my beater plan for a turn to waste him. He doesnt get another mana for 4 turns and i win. Game two i get a leyline out backed with another waste to a important land and it gave me enough time to win.

[Happy Gilmore]

My list was the same except i made a small change to the sideboard. -1 grip, -3 tsabo's web, +4 chalice.

Oh and i forgot about round 4. My opponent was playing breakfast. On his second turn i notice he doesnt play a second land so i decide to hold on my beater plan for a turn to waste him. He doesnt get another mana for 4 turns and i win. Game two i get a leyline out backed with another waste to a important land and it gave me enough time to win.

Thanks for all the info! The archer seems intersting, how good was he?

[technogeek5000]

Ther archer is essentialy the elven piledriver. The differences are that archers cost more but eats up tarmogoyf. Also archers hits random flying stuff like exalted angel and anything else that flys. jagged often gets as big or bigger then a piledriver would because with fast mana like priest and cradle we play more creatures then gobbos.

[Shabbaman]

That's why I like Goblin Bombardment. If I have a bunch of critters, the direct damage is likely faster than trying to mill them. The deck tries to win using damage anyway, so I figure I might as well use a synergistic strategy. Of course Bombardment requires a(nother) splash. :rolleyes:

If you don't want to splash you could try Blasting station.

[Maëlig]

Hi everybody, first time posting here (I just subscribed). :smile: I'm french, so please excuse me if my english is not so good...

I've been following this thread with attention, as I think this deck has alot of potential. Due to budget reasons, I'm concentrating on the mono-G version, although I'm sure the Gb one is also good (if not better).
The artefact-aggro deck that you posted Happy Gilmore seems really good, as it adds what green usually lacks : disruption. However, i would guess that as most artefact-aggro colored decks it suffers a bit from inconsistency, especially with the double-colored mana cost of eladamri. How did the testing go?
On the mono-G non-artefact list now, I am suprised some cards haven't been mentionned. Root maze for instance seems like a good option to me (EDIT : my bad, root maze has indeed been mentionned, but seems to have been rejected. Why is that?). Another card I like very much : viridian zealot. He's a 2/1 elf for 2, which is OK by itself, and he can take out an anoying artefact/enchantment if need be. Of course, there are better 2-mana elves, and better artefact/enchantment destruction in G, but this guy provides both. It's all about polyvalence. I'd run him MD. Finally, I still think that winter orb in SB can be of some use. Maindecking it wouldn't be a good idea, as it is too situational, but it can really help in the control MU, and has great synergy with the mana-elves and root maze.
Here is my list for the moment (still need to test it more and think about the SB options) :

- 4 wasteland
- 14 forest
- 4 priest of titania (still not sure about this one, not very aggro and bad in mid/late game)
- 6 llanowar elves (2 fyndhorn)
- 4 elvish spirit guide
- 4 sylvan messenger
- 4 eladamri
- 4 imperious perfect
- 4 viridian zealot
- 4 root maze
- 4 thorn of amethyst

Let me know what you think! :wink:

[Happy Gilmore]

Hi everybody, first time posting here (I just subscribed). :smile: I'm french, so please excuse me if my english is not so good...

I've been following this thread with attention, as I think this deck has alot of potential. Due to budget reasons, I'm concentrating on the mono-G version, although I'm sure the Gb one is also good (if not better).
The artefact-aggro deck that you posted Happy Gilmore seems really good, as it adds what green usually lacks : disruption. However, i would guess that as most artefact-aggro colored decks it suffers a bit from inconsistency, especially with the double-colored mana cost of eladamri. How did the testing go?
On the mono-G non-artefact list now, I am suprised some cards haven't been mentionned. Root maze for instance seems like a good option to me (EDIT : my bad, root maze has indeed been mentionned, but seems to have been rejected. Why is that?). Another card I like very much : viridian zealot. He's a 2/1 elf for 2, which is OK by itself, and he can take out an anoying artefact/enchantment if need be. Of course, there are better 2-mana elves, and better artefact/enchantment destruction in G, but this guy provides both. It's all about polyvalence. I'd run him MD. Finally, I still think that winter orb in SB can be of some use. Maindecking it wouldn't be a good idea, as it is too situational, but it can really help in the control MU, and has great synergy with the mana-elves and root maze.
Here is my list for the moment (still need to test it more and think about the SB options) :

- 4 wasteland
- 14 forest
- 4 priest of titania (still not sure about this one, not very aggro and bad in mid/late game)
- 6 llanowar elves (2 fyndhorn)
- 4 elvish spirit guide
- 4 sylvan messenger
- 4 eladamri
- 4 imperious perfect
- 4 viridian zealot
- 4 root maze
- 4 thorn of amethyst

Let me know what you think! :wink:

welcome to the source! :laugh:

Rootmaze: it is a very good card against many decks but has bad synergy with Chalice at 1. The other reason it is absent from the very artifact heavy list is how ineffective it is as a late game top deck. Even Chalice is a little better. There are other versions earlier in the thread that run Thorn +rootmaze at the disruption sweap and that may work well but I have never tested it personally. The nice thing about this is being able to run cards like Llanowar and Skyshoud Elete.

The list I posted has never been tested but I am hoping that Messenger offsets the consistency somewhat. I'm also hoping that with Eladamri you will not have to resolve too many threats to win anyway. Eladamri + Vanquisher is a 4 turn clock on its own and this deck runs both Champion and Perfect! The other great thing about elves for a creature base is that every single one, exept maybe the Caller is a stand alone powerhouse. You can keep a hand with only disruption, lands and a single Perfect and have the opponent dead very quickly. However, I personally think that the BG version has more inherent power vs. the field. I really like Vial, Maze, and Thorn md, which leaves you 30 slots for elves after devoting 18 slots to 14 forests and 4 Wastelands. I like Vial a lot more than mana elves and Priest because of how good it is against control decks.

[Maveric78f]

I don't like Wasteland when it's not supported by other mana denial (thorn and maze are somehow but I have already tested such a deck and maze had really a too random effect). I wouls remove them and 2 forests to play 3*Gaea's Cradle plus 2 other fyndhorn elves and 1 slot to define.
Priest of Titania is inferior to Gaea's cradle because it does not have haste (and is not 1CC). I would replace it with more aggro solutions such as Vanquisher or champion (I'm not sure yet).
Then I would leave the Zealots in SB, but I'm not even sure because they can't even get rid of an engineered plaque. Wirewood Symbiote is absolute nuts in this deck. It gives you additionnal mana, additionnal draw and protects your creatures.
And finally instead of the maze and the slot to define, I would play 4*Wirewood Herald + 1*Caller of the Claw. They are very good protection against mass removal. Actually, you could include 1*Viridian Zealot to be tutored but with no sacrifice outlet, it's quite random.

- 3 Gaea's Cradle
- 12 forest
- 4 vanquisher or champion
- 8 llanowar elves (4 fyndhorn)
- 4 elvish spirit guide
- 4 sylvan messenger
- 4 eladamri
- 4 imperious perfect
- 4 symbiote
- 4 herald
- 1 caller of the claw
- 4 thorn of amethyst

Edit : Just noticed you played only 56 cards :-/ So it would be vanquisher AND Champion.

[technogeek5000]

yah 12 forests is deffinately not enough. I run 14 and im having thoughts of adding more. for cradle to start working you need to get that first creature on the table. Symbiote is very interesting, the only problem i have with it is that its not a elf. If it was then id play it anyday.

Oh and thorn is enough mana denial to go with wasteland.

[Happy Gilmore]

I don't like Wasteland when it's not supported by other mana denial (thorn and maze are somehow but I have already tested such a deck and maze had really a too random effect). I wouls remove them and 2 forests to play 3*Gaea's Cradle plus 2 other fyndhorn elves and 1 slot to define.
Priest of Titania is inferior to Gaea's cradle because it does not have haste (and is not 1CC). I would replace it with more aggro solutions such as Vanquisher or champion (I'm not sure yet).
Then I would leave the Zealots in SB, but I'm not even sure because they can't even get rid of an engineered plaque. Wirewood Symbiote is absolute nuts in this deck. It gives you additionnal mana, additionnal draw and protects your creatures.
And finally instead of the maze and the slot to define, I would play 4*Wirewood Herald + 1*Caller of the Claw. They are very good protection against mass removal. Actually, you could include 1*Viridian Zealot to be tutored but with no sacrifice outlet, it's quite random.

- 3 Gaea's Cradle
- 12 forest
- 4 vanquisher or champion
- 8 llanowar elves (4 fyndhorn)
- 4 elvish spirit guide
- 4 sylvan messenger
- 4 eladamri
- 4 imperious perfect
- 4 symbiote
- 4 herald
- 1 caller of the claw
- 4 thorn of amethyst

Edit : Just noticed you played only 56 cards :-/ So it would be vanquisher AND Champion.

So you commented that there was not enough disruption effects then cut 8 of them? Seems wierd to me. Herald without something to sacrifice it is very weak.

Looks to me like your trying to turn it back into a priest style speed deck, but don't do it half way, add Crossroads.

[insertnamehere]

How about using Root maze with Back to Basic

[Kuma]

Someone needs to explain to me exactly what Thorn of Amethyst does for this deck besides give it a chance vs storm combo. I haven't been happy with it the few times I sideboarded it in my BG version. It improves the Thresh matchup, but Thresh is already an excellent matchup. It did surprisingly little when I sided it against Goyf Sligh.

It does little vs Survival, Breakfast, 43 land, Ichorid, and Goblins.

I haven't tested it vs Landstill or MUC, and unless it's really good at stopping Daze and FoW, I don't think it's worth it there either. I'm not even sure what I'd side out against Landstill to put Thorn in.

Unless your meta has lots of storm combo, I just don't see Thorn as worth it in BG.

Here's my current sideboard:
1 Caller of the Claw
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Krosan Grip
3 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Umezawa's Jitte

I also haven't been happy with Caller in the main deck. Most of the time it's a (nearly) dead draw, so I moved it to the sideboard for a 4th Eyeblight's Ending.

[technogeek5000]

If you take out the thorn then this deck loses the control aspect it needs to compete in the metagame. Pure aggro stradegies without some form of control are not viable and thorn is incredible in this deck because it acts as a 1 sided sphere of resistance against alot of decks. Ill admit that it doesnt do anything against gobbos and Survival but against breakfast it doesnt stop the combo but it stops the rest of the deck and they need 1 mana open to pay for dread return. The same goes for ichy which mens they cant therapy or dread return which slows them down tremendulously and this deck can out aggro ichy if it comes to that. Also 43 lands isnt played as much as the others due to how much it costs to make the deck (8 duals and 8 fetches plus wastes, ports, 1-2 tabernacle, and all the other cards adds up to a lot)... also that matchup is so 1 sided in their favor its no use in trying to make it any better.

This deck is essentially goblins. The upside is that it is more resilient to hate and has a stronger board. The downside is that its first 2 turns are genrally weaker then gobbs are. It also trades some other small things away.


Lackey = priest: they both bring out expensive creatures ahead of time and help to fill the board and overwhelm your opponent.

The trade: 1 mana more to get rid of the need to connect with your opponent.


Piledriver = jagged scar: They are both creatures that get larger from the amount of their tribe that is behind them.

The trade: 1 mana more to not die to goyf. Also hits randomness like angel or other things this deck has a hard time dealing with. They both get the same size because this deck tends to play more creatures by the time this guy attacks.


Eladamri > warchief anyday.
Both have ringleaders

[Kuma]

4 Thorn of Amethyst doesn't turn an aggro deck into aggro control. I can understand Thorn in mono green. I was referring more to its lack of use in the BG version. Wouldn't something like Chalice or Trinisphere be better anyways?

Helps the Ichorid matchup too... fair enough
Slows Breakfast down by a turn... okay, it's not as bad as I thought

Thanks for the explanation!

[Happy Gilmore]

4 Thorn of Amethyst doesn't turn an aggro deck into aggro control. I can understand Thorn in mono green. I was referring more to its lack of use in the BG version. Wouldn't something like Chalice or Trinisphere be better anyways?

Helps the Ichorid matchup too... fair enough
Slows Breakfast down by a turn... okay, it's not as bad as I thought

Thanks for the explanation!

I can certainly see why you traded out the Caller in the main. The nice thing about the BG version is how good each elf is by itself, no to mention Tarmogoyf. Having more Endings also helps in the breakfast matchup, killing Ghoul with it is awesome. Also, how has Jitte been for you? I've found it mediocre so far, Eladamri more often then not makes it irrelevant.

[technogeek5000]

Did you post your list on this thread. if you did then it would help me understand where you are coming from.

Also i dont think this deck realy needs to splash a color. It has all the hate for the decks it needs to fight off already in choke and leyline and it doesnt realy need thoughtsieze or duress. What are you splashing for and do you realy need it.

[Happy Gilmore]

Did you post your list on this thread. if you did then it would help me understand where you are coming from.

Also i dont think this deck realy needs to splash a color. It has all the hate for the decks it needs to fight off already in choke and leyline and it doesnt realy need thoughtsieze or duress. What are you splashing for and do you realy need it.

Well that is the biq question.

Kuma's BG build for reference:

Land (18)
4 Bayou
4 Gilt-Leaf Palace
2 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Swamp
3 Forest

Creatures (28)
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
3 Skyshroud Elite
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wren's Run Vanquisher
4 Eladamri, Lord of Leaves
4 Wirewood Herald
4 Imperious Perfect
1 Caller of the Claw

Other (14)
4 Aether Vial
4 Thoughtseize
3 Eyeblight's Ending
3 Cabal Therapy


The difference between the two comes down to one thing IMO:

Mana denial (Mono-green Stategy) vs. Hand disruption (BG)

Its very possible for both versions to exist and do well depending on the metagame where you play them. Reminds me of decideing which version of UGx threshold to play.

I personally think that Herald along with more disruption is a good reason to splash. A black splash for Discard and Ending makes Tarmogoyf playable in the deck as well. Tarmogoyf can easily be bigger than an Archer, and doesn't require any other elf in play. In my meta with all the landstill running around I can't afford to commit multiple creatures to the board at a time. Using the Mono-green version this strategy takes most of its power away. I like the versatility of Herald because it does not require a set # of elves like messenger, translating into a more streamline SB.

[Kuma]

I can certainly see why you traded out the Caller in the main. The nice thing about the BG version is how good each elf is by itself, no to mention Tarmogoyf. Having more Endings also helps in the breakfast matchup, killing Ghoul with it is awesome. Also, how has Jitte been for you? I've found it mediocre so far, Eladamri more often then not makes it irrelevant.

Yeah, Jitte is more of a placeholder than anything else. I can equip it to Tarmogoyf, but with Eladamri out that's my only option. I would side them in, taking out Eladamri, against decks with no/few forests/creatures that are removal light, which is predictably very few decks. Jitte testing has been limited as a result and I really think the sideboard could be a lot better. I'm not sure what to replace the Jittes with. Extirpate? Needle? Maybe Jagged-Scar would be good. technogeek seems to really like them.

[Elvish-Champion]

hi i show u my elves list now:


Lands:
17 Forest

Creatures:
4 Priest
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Eladamri
3 Packmaster
4 Vanquisher
4 Champion
4 I. Perfect
4 ESG
4 Aether Vial
4 Sylvan Messenger

=60

Sideboard
4 Caller
4 Grips
3 tormods Crypt
..

have no idea for the rest of the Sideboard.
pls post your opinion and tell me a good sideboard plan

[Maëlig]

The problem I have found with the mono-G list is that it is simply not disruptive enough. You only have wasteland, thorn and root maze, which are all great at slowing down your opponent, but which most likely will not compromise their game plan (except for storm decks thanks to thorn maybe). Which means you have to grab victory during these few turns, and hence go the all-aggro route (don't tell me you can make the game last longer with Eladamri, he's great but won't help you in the combo MU). We have seen with the downfall of goblins (which is even faster than elves) that this is not a viable solution.
So after all I think the Gb or the stompy-artefact version is the way to go.
Concerning the artefact version, I have found elvish harbinger to be very nice. It is certainly not a game-breaking card and will slow your tempo down (which I think you can afford with the mana-acceleration suite), but will make the deck alot more stable by a) providing another green mana source to cast Eladamri (I have found this to be a concern sometimes with the 4 tombs and 4 cities), and b) making you to draw the elf you desperatly need at any moment of the game (you're essentially running each one x8 in terms of probability, with a little loss of tempo ). Also, it allows you to run a mini-toolbox : 1 caller (no need to play 4 anymore), 1 viridian shaman and 1 elf replica seems like a minimum to me, maybe 1 gempalm and even 1 eyeblight's ending (remember the harbinger provides a mana of any color)?
But yes, I agree that in normal circumstances (ie in non-artefact mono-G for example), it's a bad card. :tongue:
By the way, I don't get how can some of you find jagged-scar archer even remotely good. He's ability is too situational to be taken into account, and his P/T only starts to get interesting if you have 4 elves in play (and even then I'd definitely prefer an imperious perfect), in which case you should be wining anyways. Plus no trample means that he'll end up getting chumblocked all day long. Don't compare him to a piledriver, who costs 1 less and gets twice as much power boost.

[Curby]

Hmm, no one likes Birchlore Rangers? Since my ESGs are elsewhere I'm currently using 6 Llanowars, 4 Priests, and 2 Birchlores with my red splash. If you're willing to overcommit a bit, you can do some nasty early acceleration without Crossroads. Getting mana out of nowhere can also occasionally help against a careless Daze, etc. (while you shouldn't count on the opponent to make mistakes, forcing your opponent to think harder is a good thing). I probably wouldn't use it in mono-green, but it can give me the red I need and it's still (much) faster than Harbinger.

Blasting Station is an interesting idea, but I need to be able to fling at will multiple times.

EDIT: So what if Symbiote isn't an Elf? Tarmogoyf isn't either, and people are running that too.

Symbiote allows you to chump+bounce with any elf.
Symbiote is broken with Perfect, Priest, etc. when Eladamri's not out.
Symbiote still does combat tricks when Eladamri's out.
Symbiote still recurs coming into play effects when Eladamri's out.
Symbiote saves a guy from sweepers and targeted destruction.
If you're using Jitte or other beneficial targeting effects, Symbiote bounces Eladamri to equip.

Does Elves really have so much trouble in combat that we need another vanilla (i.e. "big and nothing else") beater? Sure it's big, but it has no synergy with anything and has no evasion.

[technogeek5000]

Here is the newlist ive been testing. Im trying out symbiote in place of jagged scar right now but im thinking of putting a few of them in. They realy give the deck the aggro that keeps the decks regular kill turn at 4-5(same speed as goblins, and faster then any other aggro deck i can think of). Oh and caller of the claw is easily better then krosan grip in the board so I switched those to.

// Lands
14 Forest
3 Wasteland
2 Gaea's Cradle
// Creatures
3 Elvish Champion
2 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Imperious Perfect
4 Wirewood symbiote
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Sylvan Messenger
4 Wren's Run Vanquisher
4 Eladamri, Lord of Leaves
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Priest of Titania
// Artifacts
4 Thorn of Amethyst
// Sideboard
SB: 4 Choke
SB: 4 Chalic of the void
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 Caller of the Claw

From my last list the changes are:
MB:
-4 Jagged
+4 Symbiote
SB:
-3 Krosan grips
+3 Caller of the claw.

[DeepfriedDynamite]

The problem I have found with the mono-G list is that it is simply not disruptive enough. You only have wasteland, thorn and root maze, which are all great at slowing down your opponent, but which most likely will not compromise their game plan (except for storm decks thanks to thorn maybe). Which means you have to grab victory during these few turns, and hence go the all-aggro route (don't tell me you can make the game last longer with Eladamri, he's great but won't help you in the combo MU). We have seen with the downfall of goblins (which is even faster than elves) that this is not a viable solution.
So after all I think the Gb or the stompy-artefact version is the way to go.
Concerning the artefact version, I have found elvish harbinger to be very nice. It is certainly not a game-breaking card and will slow your tempo down (which I think you can afford with the mana-acceleration suite), but will make the deck alot more stable by a) providing another green mana source to cast Eladamri (I have found this to be a concern sometimes with the 4 tombs and 4 cities), and b) making you to draw the elf you desperatly need at any moment of the game (you're essentially running each one x8 in terms of probability, with a little loss of tempo ). Also, it allows you to run a mini-toolbox : 1 caller (no need to play 4 anymore), 1 viridian shaman and 1 elf replica seems like a minimum to me, maybe 1 gempalm and even 1 eyeblight's ending (remember the harbinger provides a mana of any color)?
But yes, I agree that in normal circumstances (ie in non-artefact mono-G for example), it's a bad card. :tongue:
By the way, I don't get how can some of you find jagged-scar archer even remotely good. He's ability is too situational to be taken into account, and his P/T only starts to get interesting if you have 4 elves in play (and even then I'd definitely prefer an imperious perfect), in which case you should be wining anyways. Plus no trample means that he'll end up getting chumblocked all day long. Don't compare him to a piledriver, who costs 1 less and gets twice as much power boost.

Umm your kind of wrong on about everything you just said. This deck is as fast as goblins winning turns 4 and 5 and it is more resilient to hate with symbiote and eladamri (also the 8 lords help against plauges). therefore all this deck needs to do is disrupt the opponent 1-3 turns with a manadenial like wasteland and thorn and this deck wins.

Ill give you that harbinger is a nifty toolbox in the artifact build.

Also, Since your already playing playsets of perfect and champion why would you say you would prefer to have perfect instead of jaggged

[Maëlig]

Umm your kind of wrong on about everything you just said. This deck is as fast as goblins winning turns 4 and 5 and it is more resilient to hate with symbiote and eladamri (also the 8 lords help against plauges). therefore all this deck needs to do is disrupt the opponent 1-3 turns with a manadenial like wasteland and thorn and this deck wins.

Ill give you that harbinger is a nifty toolbox in the artifact build.

Also, Since your already playing playsets of perfect and champion why would you say you would prefer to have perfect instead of jaggged

I wouldn't say that this deck goes faster than goblins (can you do the equivalent of dropping a siege-gang T2 without using your mana?), but it is definitely better on the medium/long term. It is indeed a bit more resilient to hate, but a well-placed board sweeper can do damage without the herald/caller tech (btw I don't play the symbiote, bad synergy with Eladamri). But even if it WAS a fast as goblins and more resilient to hate, that is not enough. Why do you think goblins is not tier 1 anymore? Part of the answer is its bad combo MU (even with the mana-denial suite, including thorn that has been added to some versions lately). This deck is no different, and the problem can't just be ignored. Unless of course your meta is combo-light, in which case it could be a good choice.
About jagged, I was just saying that it is worse than perfect. Btw, I don't play the champion, but it is worse than it too.

[technogeek5000]

I wouldn't say that this deck goes faster than goblins (can you do the equivalent of dropping a siege-gang T2 without using your mana?), but it is definitely better on the medium/long term. It is indeed a bit more resilient to hate, but a well-placed board sweeper can do damage without the herald/caller tech (btw I don't play the symbiote, bad synergy with Eladamri). But even if it WAS a fast as goblins and more resilient to hate, that is not enough. Why do you think goblins is not tier 1 anymore? Part of the answer is its bad combo MU (even with the mana-denial suite, including thorn that has been added to some versions lately). This deck is no different, and the problem can't just be ignored. Unless of course your meta is combo-light, in which case it could be a good choice.
About jagged, I was just saying that it is worse than perfect. Btw, I don't play the champion, but it is worse than it too.

Symbiote doesnt target elves so it can sill bounce when eladamri is out. Post board when you have thorn(esg makes it go out faster), waste, and chalice/leyline(depending on the type of combo) the combo MU is winnable(i won 2 times against storm combo in TMLO).

Oh and yes, with a turn 1 priest or a cradle this deck can pump out 3 to 4 creatures by turn 2.

[Maëlig]

About symbiote, I just meant that it is a bit redumbdant with Eladamri out.
Not sure about priest, it attracts all the anti-creatures (even sharpshooter can hit it...) and is bad in mid/late-game.
I believe you when you say the combo MU is winnable, but it's certainly not great. I'm not saying that the mono-G version can't work, just that it needs more disrupt. 4 root maze MD and 4 winter orb SB (ESPECIALLY if you play the priest) along with the other disrupt seems like indispensable to me.

[technogeek5000]

Winter Orb isnt that bad of a idea. I just dont know if its better then choke against landstill. ill try it out.

Edit: With eladamri out, symbiote still performs combat tricks and makes mana wih priest and tokens with perfect.

[Maëlig]

I agree for the "combat tricks", but is it really enough to play the card? The interaction with priest is crucial in the classic elf build (ie combo with glimpse/staff), but in this deck there is no real way to abuse of this massive mana production. Helps to get a quick start, but if you can't keep the pace...
I recently thought about replacing the orb for something else. In the optic of running root maze MD, we could add some Tsabo's Web in side. I find the card pretty good by itself since it blocks off all manlands without any CA loss, but with root maze it's simply broken as it blocks all fetchlands too. Nice, isn't it?

[technogeek5000]

For all the people who are running symbiote (i decided to go back to jagged, i just like the raw power) i would think that Quirion ranger would be a little better because it is a elf so it works with the lords(champion, eladamri,perfect), jagged, priest, and messenger.

[Kuma]

Problem is if Eladamri is out you can't target any of your elves with the untap ability. Symbiote at least lets you bounce Eladamri so you can target your creatures. Removing your protection for an untap effect seems very weak to me though. I love Wirewood Symbiote, but I think his job is better done by Eladamri and Herald/Caller of the Claw.

[insertnamehere]

Problem is if Eladamri is out you can't target any of your elves with the untap ability. Symbiote at least lets you bounce Eladamri so you can target your creatures. Removing your protection for an untap effect seems very weak to me though. I love Wirewood Symbiote, but I think his job is better done by Eladamri and Herald/Caller of the Claw.

The only time you would use this i when your opponent had no cards in his/her hand (creature removal). The symbiote should only be used in the combo based versions which rely on untapping your elves x amount of times.

[Jak]

I would like to try this deck out. I have the duals and everything for the BG version, so I am wanting to play that to put my Therapies, Durresses, and Extirpates to good use.

4 Bayou
2 Overgrown Tomb
4 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
4 Wasteland
4 Land Grant

4 Aether Vial
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Cabal Therapy

4 Fyndhorn Elves
2 Llanowar Elves
4 Priest of Titania
4 ESG

4 Eladamri
4 Imperious
4 Jagged Scar
4 Wren's Run Vanquisher
4 Sylvan Messenger
1 Caller of the Claw
4 Wirewood Herald

SB
4 Duress
4 Extirpate
4 Winter Orb
3 Krosan Grip

I need to cut 2 cards, but the list looks really strong on paper and is using the mana denial and discard. Thoughts?

[Maëlig]

I would go with :
- 4 priest (not that great in that deck, especially since you run the vial)
+ 1/2 eyeblight's ending (at least)
+ 1 viridian shaman
+ 1 elf replica
Apart from this, looks pretty good.

[Jak]

I would cut Vials before Priest. I actually may cut the vials and add 2 Elvish Champions.

[technogeek5000]

maeliq you are very undervalueling the awesomeness that is priest. If priest is bad in your deck then you should probably change around your deck because priest and cradle both speed the deck up so much that it can go toe to toe with goblins. Please dont discredit a card because it can be answered easily. Goyf gets answered by even more cards(removal and grave hate) but you dont see people taking him out for that reason.

Jak: I was just about to suggest that. The deck has so many one drops and 2 drops accelerated by ESG that you dont want to be holding back a turn to cast vial. And having 7-8 lords helps the deck deal with cards like pyroclasm.

[Maëlig]

Well, at least we agree on that it's either vial or priest, not both. Whether you run one or the other is, I think, a matter of personal preference and of your meta. It is true that I don't like priest in this deck, for the same reason that I don't like cradle : it's vulnerable and only good in certain conditions (ie on turn 1 or 2). More importantly, it doesn't provide any answer for this deck main problems : board sweepers and the combo MU. I think THIS is what we should be concentrating on.
That being said, I agree that dropping a 1st turn priest, allowing you to put almost all your hand on the board turn 2 is a nice (but risky) play.

[Jak]

Well, at least we agree on that it's either vial or priest, not both. Whether you run one or the other is, I think, a matter of personal preference and of your meta. It is true that I don't like priest in this deck, for the same reason that I don't like cradle : it's vulnerable and only good in certain conditions (ie on turn 1 or 2). More importantly, it doesn't provide any answer for this deck main problems : board sweepers and the combo MU. I think THIS is what we should be concentrating on.
That being said, I agree that dropping a 1st turn priest, allowing you to put almost all your hand on the board turn 2 is a nice (but risky) play.

Are board sweepers a problem? I thought Sylvan Messenger was there for that and the Caller of the Claw. Is it that bad?

[zander1]

maeliq you are very undervalueling the awesomeness that is priest. If priest is bad in your deck then you should probably change around your deck because priest and cradle both speed the deck up so much that it can go toe to toe with goblins. Please dont discredit a card because it can be answered easily. Goyf gets answered by even more cards(removal and grave hate) but you dont see people taking him out for that reason.

Jak: I was just about to suggest that. The deck has so many one drops and 2 drops accelerated by ESG that you dont want to be holding back a turn to cast vial. And having 7-8 lords helps the deck deal with cards like pyroclasm.

The lords don't help against removal like Pyroclasm or Flamebreak, because they only need to play pyroclasm and then to destroy one. Because of this Herald + Caller of the claw with a Vial with 3 counters is the best answer this deck has.

[Jak]

The lords don't help against removal like Pyroclasm or Flamebreak, because they only need to play pyroclasm and then to destroy one. Because of this Herald + Caller of the claw with a Vial with 3 counters is the best answer this deck has.

There is a reason Goblins didn't care about having outs to wrath effects. They already had one. Ringleader is there way to win, my list for example, runs more elves than goblins in a goblin deck. Granted, we don't have Warchief to then swing in one turn, but we do have Caller.

Also, discard is good at taking those wraths and what not, so don't freak out because a guy ruins your board.

[Maëlig]

Messenger is certainly usefull but isn't enough I would think. Caller is very good when combined with herald, otherwise I'm not too sure... But would you really run herald in a mono-G list?

[insertnamehere]

What about summoners pact?

[insertnamehere]

Here are two ideas I have been kicking around for some time now. Let me know what you think.
Aggro Elves
4 Llanowar Elves
3 Fyndorn Elves
3 Priest of Titania
3 Wren’s Run Vanquisher
3 Eladamri Lord of Leaves
1 Viridian Zealot
3 Elvish Warrior
1 Caller of the Claw
4 Elvish Harbinger
4 Imperious Perfect
4 Elvish Champion
3 Sylvan Messanger
2 Wren’s Run Packmaster
4 Masked Admirers

4 Thorn of Amethyst

16 Forest

3 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Promenade
3 Skyshroud Poacher
4 Leyline of Lifeforce

Reasons for certain Cards:
Most choices are pretty obvious I chose not to run the Spirit Guides because of there decreasing need after turns 1 & 2. I decided to run the harbinger over the Herald only based on the fact it is not only stronger, it also taps for mana of any color which is a bonus in my opinion.
As for the sideboard I am toying with the Symbiote/Poacher combo, which pretty much makes the smbiote viable in the deck with Eladamri,

Combo Elves

3 Staff of Domination

4 Llanowar Elves
4 Fyndhorn Elves
3 Priest of Titania
3 Quirion Ranger
3 Wirewood Symbiote

4 Elvish Champion
4 Imperious Perfect
3 Wren's Run Vanquisher

2 Deranged Hermit
1 Wren’s Run Packmaster
2 Skyshroud Poacher

3 Concordant Crossroads
4 Living Wish

17 Forest

1 Viridian Zealot
2 Gaea’s Cradle
1 Maze of Ith
1 Skyshroud Poacher
2 Eladamri, Lord of Leaves
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Caller of the Claw
1 Wren’s Run Packmaster
1 Thornweald Archer
3 Wasteland
1 Rofello's

As far as the combo deck goes, it is pretty simple, create inifinite mana. Infinite mana= infinite life, the ability to play your deck, infinite creatures to attack with and defeat your opponent.

[MeddlingMage]

What about this version originally posted by Tao.

Updated decklist

// Mana
8 [8E] Forest (3)
2 [AT] Pendelhaven
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [MR] Chrome Mox

// Creatures
4 [AT] Llanowar Elves
4 [IA] Fyndhorn Elves
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide

4 [LOR] Wren's Run Vanquisher
4 [AP] Sylvan Messenger
4 [UL] Deranged Hermit
2 [LOR] Wren's Run Packmaster
2 [TSP] Thelonite Hermit

// Spells
3 [LOR] Garruk Wildspeaker
3 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [LOR] Thorn of Amethyst

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [5E] Winter Orb
SB: 3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3 [DIS] Indrik Stomphowler
SB: 2 [UD] Powder Keg


- Garruk is nothing but insane. He can come down on turn 2, accelerate one or two turns and then make Call of the Herd for the rest of the game.

- You need the Elf engine. It keeps the deck together. Wren Run's Vanquisher is fast and good against everything. Sylvan Messanger is the most important card in the deck. He is much better than Skyshroud Poacher or similar creatures, because if he gets killed instantly you don't care. So there is no room for Non-Elf creatures like Tarmogoyf, Poacher or Iwamori.

- I needed room for Garruk and the Trinispeheres so I had to cut the Equipment. You can't go below 28 Elves without making Messanger and Wren Run's suck.
Garruk is always better than Sword of Fire and Ice. I miss Jitte in the main, but Trinisphere seems like a better choice.

- The same is true for Garruk, the Hermits and the Packmaster. They re hard to deal with. Without counterspells it is not easy to trade 1-1 with them.

- SB: I play Indrik Stomphowler as Disenchant-effect. Zealot sucks against Engineered Plague and needs GGG and Krosan Grip cannot deal damage to the opponent. But there are two cards against which I really want Grip: Aluren and Humility. So it is possible that I put 2 of them back into the board.

I think if the deck is tweaked a little it could really kick some @$$.
Here is my twist on the deck:
// Mana
11 Forest
2 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox

// Creatures
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Fyndhorn Elves
3 Priest of Titania


4 Wren's Run Vanquisher
4 Sylvan Messenger
3 Wirewood Symbiote
2 Wren's Run Packmaster
4 Imperious Perfect
4 Elvish Champion

// Spells
3 Garruk Wildspeaker
4 Thorn of Amethyst

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Winter Orb
SB: 3 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Eladamri

There are a few other cards I wanted to toy with in this deck:
Elvish Promnade
Lys'Alana Packmaster

Any suggestions?

[Windux]

Some guy at the Dutch Legacy Champs played such a Deck.
He did pretty good, but not making T8 after losing in the last Round.

He played Green/White.
White for Mirror Entitiy and Armageddons.
I Saw a Swords to Plowshares in the Sideboard, but maybe it was just the 4th copy of it.

Also he played Vanquisher, Harbringer and the Imperious Guy.
Garruk, Llanowar, Fyndhord, Priests.

I didn't saw the whole Deck, but I liked it.

Maybe he has an account here and post the deck

[Curby]

Combo Elves

3 Staff of Domination
3 Priest of Titania


Huh? That's like playing with 3 High Tides and Resets. Also it needs more card draw, e.g. Glimpse of Nature. Also, more varied win conditions such as Hurricane and Words of Wilding would be nice. You might also consider a slice of caec (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=159413). :tongue:

[Wynk]

Hi guys. I know the majority consensus is :b::g:, but I've been thinking about using Suppression Field and Gaddock Teeg as combo speed bumps.

18 MANA sources
4 forests
4 savannah
3 brushland
4 land grant
3 chrome mox

35 ELVES
4 llanowar elves
4 fyndhorn elves
4 priest of titiania

4 wren's run vanquisher
4 eladamri lord of leaves

3 wirewood herald
3 sylvan messanger

4 imperious perfect
4 elvish champion

1 caller of the claw

7 OTHER
3 gaddock teeg
4 suppression field


Board:
4 krosan grip
4 antigraveyard/token hate???
3 thorn of amethyst or glowrider???
1 gaddock teeg
3 swords to plowshares???

I came up with this idea as I realized that Crystalline Elves lacks activated abilities compared to many other decks. This being true, and given the prevalance of Fetchlands, EE, etc; I thought that Suppression Field could become an effective delay tactic against much of the field, especially if you cast it turn 1. It isn't dead vs. most control as it attacks manland activations, shuts down certain combo decks that use En Kors, and even attacks the mana base of certain aggro decks. Its nearly useless vs. Ichorid, but its still pretty good. If used in conjunction with winter orbs or taxing effects like thorn or glowrider, it may be quite effective.

Also Gaddock Teeg may not kill combo, but it does stop Wraths, EEs, FOW, and Dread Returns and beats for 2.

Both anti-combo pieces won't win the game, but may delay the opponent long enough to win the game. Also, they act as proactive solutions rather than reactive.

Advice would be appreciated.

[technogeek5000]

you should definately replace chrome mox with gae's cradle. This deck doesnt want any shape or form of card disadvantage. With gaes cradles and priests you should be able to play lots and lots of elves very fast so chrome mox is superflous (my spelling sucks:tongue: ).

For your 7 blank spots i would probably do something like 4 esg and 3 thorn or waste as they are also decent delay tactics against mass removal but are much less narrow.

GL with the deck.

[Wynk]

Thanks for the suggestions. I personally think of cradles as win more though. If you have lot of elves on the table, then you're already in a good position. Turn 1 cradle, no other land, and lots of one mana elves is just annoying. :) It is a permanant priest though....

I like chrome mox and ESG. I used mox because, though it is card disadvantage, it also sets up nice turn 1 plays and provides a steady source of mana for future turns. ESG is a one shot, but atleast its an elf and has some sort of late game use.

Thorns are nice and it seems everyone is considering this for their maindeck anticombo/control hate. Its a good idea, I just believe field and Teeg can be quite useful as well. Notice I put either glowrider or thorn or both??? in the board. Wasteland may be excellent in this type of deck. I'll look into it.

Random question: Do you know how to create bold text in this forum?

[insertnamehere]

Huh? That's like playing with 3 High Tides and Resets. Also it needs more card draw, e.g. Glimpse of Nature. Also, more varied win conditions such as Hurricane and Words of Wilding would be nice. You might also consider a slice of caec (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=159413). :tongue:

The only problem I had with Glimpse was not drawing cards I could play.

[Happy Gilmore]

I really wish we could focus this discussion some what. Its all over the place. Theory and decklists are great but without testing it means little. Only one or two people have actually played some variation in tournament and this makes me optimistic about the archetype. The only version played in tournament so far is mono green, but what I would really like to see are developed BG and WG lists being played somewhere in the world under tournament conditions. Personally I want to work and test BG because I love the versatility of discard and the power of Herald+Therapy. Others have suggested a WG list that use various spells including Gaddock and Geddon. Anyway, if you like one version test it, play it, and see how you do in tournament. It would be nice to get this deck eventually moved to the Open forum but that cannot happen until we establish a series of lists, even if there are three or four.

[Emerald]

Hi!
I'm a bit afraid to ask, but why is everybody playing 12 mana elves?
I only play 4 Llanowar Elves with 17 Forests and it works very good.

Thanks
Kai

[Jak]

So you don't have to run that many lands and they are elves. Being able to produce mana or swing is pretty big. Also, the deck can get a strong engine going and needs all the mana it can get by casting Sylvan and drawing into more goods. Try it. You will like it.

[Happy Gilmore]

So you don't have to run that many lands and they are elves. Being able to produce mana or swing is pretty big. Also, the deck can get a strong engine going and needs all the mana it can get by casting Sylvan and drawing into more goods. Try it. You will like it.

There is a limit to how many mana sources you can cut in order to make Mana Elves useful. You need 2 lands in had to take advantage of the excelleration they can give you. Which means going below a certain number of mana sources is bad. Elves also cannot create mana the turn they come into play, and this alone is limits their usefullness. Not to mention that only the lords and Messenger need to be excellerated into, Everything else costs 2. 4 Llanowar +4 ESG is already 8 excellerants and some decks play priest as well. I think you will find yourself with a crap ton of mana an nothing really to do with it.

On a side note...Anyone test Wirewood Hivemaster? This card is awsome.

[Nihil Credo]

Having found that my turn 1 plays were almost always a discard spell or AEther Vial (one of which was very likely to be in my opening hand), I realized the mana elves were just working as crappy turn 2 plays, most often Therapy fodder... so I cut them. The deck was then adjusted to the new curve... more lands, one Therapy became a Thoughtseize, and a greater focus on the late-game with double Stronghold and resilient threats instead of "dumb" ones like Champion or Gempalm Strider.

The results have been pleasing, as I now have a consistent deck where every creature affects the board state. I'd say it plays like a hybrid between Goblins and The Rock. It crushes Threshold, even with Pyroclasm in the SB, but several matchups rely heavily on the sideboard.

Regarding the land count... I fully expected 20 lands to cause mana screw and to have to go to 21-22. This, however, hasn't happened: the mana has been working pretty smoothly. Taking a closer look, I realized that my cards are cheaper than Goblins, and while I have three less lands I also do not run Wasteland or Rishadan Port, so I can commit all my mana every turn to playing disruption and creatures.

// Lands
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [PR] Bayou
1 [US] Phyrexian Tower
1 [RAV] Overgrown Tomb
2 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
6 [UNH] Forest

// Creatures
4 [LRW] Wren's Run Vanquisher
4 [ON] Wirewood Herald
4 [TE] Eladamri, Lord of Leaves
4 [LRW] Imperious Perfect
4 [AP] Sylvan Messenger
1 [LE] Caller of the Claw
1 [LRW] Wren's Run Packmaster
1 [LRW] Masked Admirers
3 Elf slots (a combination of Jagged-Scar Archers, Viridian Zealot, Wellwisher, or a second Packmaster or Admirers)

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [LRW] Thoughtseize
3 [ON] Smother
1 [LRW] Eyeblight's Ending

One problem I've found is that the SB is pretty tight. I'd say Needles are a necessity (this deck doesn't like Deed!), and Grips are a likely inclusion too, but the rest of the slots aren't easy. In an open meta, cards like Thorn of Amethyst or additional discard or removal hurt a wide variety of decks, but they don't downright slaughter anything, so you may want to take a guess and use some of the powerful hosers to run instead. Too bad Thorn and Plague are both the kind of cards you really want multiples of.

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
9 remaining cards chosen among the following:
[LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
[GP] Leyline of the Void
[7E] Engineered Plague

[insertnamehere]

Seems kinda slow, how does it work without acceleration, expecially with the Packmaster's?

[Nihil Credo]

Practically every game involves turn 1 Vial, Thoughtseize, or Therapy, then Elves on the following turns. The Goblin matchup is the one that has suffered the most, but still less than you'd think because mana Elves were a terrible Lackey answer: both Fanatic or Incinerator allowed Lackey to connect safely. The long game is still yours (just as many guys, but bigger and/or untargetable...), but stopping the initial offense and mana denial is difficult without Vial.

Packmaster is sort of SGC's fatter, slower cousing: given enough mana, it will rule the combat phase for you. It's great against control because it doesn't require you to overextend as usual, and Championing a Messenger is tremendous... however, without discard backup, you may be forced to risk the 2-for-1. Aggro-control doesn't like it either, but those are good matchups already. Still, it is far from an essential part of the deck.

[Emerald]

...
4 Llanowar +4 ESG is already 8 excellerants and some decks play priest as well. I think you will find yourself with a crap ton of mana an nothing really to do with it.
...

This is why I don't play that many and I'm still even not sure if I need 4. In my first deck version, I had none and it still worked great.

[Maëlig]

Looks pretty good to me, I was also hesitant to play the mana elves in an aggro-control version.
Your toolbox looks pretty odd though, I would replace the packmaster and the admirers by viridian zealot and a gempalm maybe (or run them in addition?).
What do you think of skyshroud elite in this list? You have no creature costing 1 so it could be good with the vial (instead of always waiting to have to counters before you can use it).
Also, I think eyeblight's ending > smother. It costs 1 more but is more polyvalent, tutorisable and has a good synergy with messenger.

[Nihil Credo]

Your toolbox looks pretty odd though, I would replace the packmaster and the admirers by viridian zealot and a gempalm maybe (or run them in addition?).

Do notice the "3 customizable slots" part. Those you listed are both dependable choices (the Gempalm less so IMO, but in an aggro meta it can do a good job). As I said, the Packmaster is non-essential; however, I think you should try the Admirers first. They're a CA engine all of their own, giving you a Mongoose- or Factory-class threat that just plain doesn't go away.


What do you think of skyshroud elite in this list? You have no creature costing 1 so it could be good with the vial (instead of always waiting to have to counters before you can use it).First of all, it doesn't fit the mana curve. As I've said, the primary reason I cut the mana elves was because I'd always have them in the opening hand along with a Vial or a Thoughtseize, and I'd choose the other card every time. The same problem would present itself with Skyshroud Elite, which is considerably less sexy as a turn 2 play.

A second, more subjective consideration is that it doesn't fit the concept behind this approach. Except for at most 2-3 Herald targets, and Eladamri which is just too amazing, no Elf in my list is ever "blanked" by a random fattie on the other side of the table. Vanquisher trades with anything, Herald is a Demonic Tutor, Perfect and Packmaster make their own armies, Messenger calls one, and even Admirers can chump-draw quite a lot. But the instant a Mishra's Factory is active on the other side, Skyshroud Elite doesn't do anything without backup.


Also, I think eyeblight's ending > smother. It costs 1 more but is more polyvalent, tutorisable and has a good synergy with messenger.I do run a copy, so I've got the versatility and tutorability aspects covered. IMO, going up to 30 Elves, just for Messenger's sake, doesn't overcome the 50% cost increase over Smother (and, incidentally, the Goyf-pumping).

[insertnamehere]

What about running Elvish Champions for added power against damage.

[Happy Gilmore]

I still think I would rather sacrifice running Messenger so that I can run Tarmogoyf.

I've been testing Kuma's list recently and it has so so much power. The only changes I made were to the manabase:

4 Bayou
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
5 Forest
1 Overgrown Tomb

I am also considering 2 MD Savannahs so that I can run Gaddock Teeg in the SB. He may not be as good as Thorn in some ways but he doesn't conflict with the your discard.

The only other change was -1 Caller of the Claw for the 4th Skyshroud Elete.

[Maëlig]

Thanks for your answers Nihil, I understand your build better now, and I must say I agree with most of what you said.


The only other change was -1 Caller of the Claw for the 4th Skyshroud Elete.
No caller MD, while you are playing 4 herald and 4 vials? This seems like an odd choice...

[Illissius]

I expect they'll "fix" Eladamri with the December 1st B&R update coming up, so there's not much time left for this deck to shine... I think it'll still be legal for Worlds, though, thankfully.

[Kuma]

On a side note...Anyone test Wirewood Hivemaster? This card is awsome.

I ran two Hivemasters in my staff-combo elf deck, and they worked great there, but I really don't think they belong here. Would you rather cast a Hivemaster on turn two than Eladamri, Vanquisher, Herald or Tarmogoyf? That said, I haven't tested them, but I really doubt they'll be good enough.

Gaddock Teeg seems like an okay idea, tell me how it goes. I'm also going to try out your manabase.

@Nihil

I like your list and will definitely give it some testing. Do you run into enough mass removal game 1 to warrant Caller of the Claw in the maindeck? I moved her to the sideboard and haven't missed her game 1. I'd probably cut a Stronghold from your list since 18 land plus Vial has been plenty of mana for me. Your Smother arguement has merit, but you don't run Tarmogoyf. I'm going to try some Smother in my Tarmogoyf version and see how it goes.

Skyshroud Elite is easily the weakest card in my list, and the one I sideboard out most often. It does help with turn 1 Lackey, but it is rather subpar vs a lot of decks. I almost always play Vial or Discard over it. I should probably test some other stuff in the slot.


What do you think of skyshroud elite in this list? You have no creature costing 1 so it could be good with the vial (instead of always waiting to have to counters before you can use it).

I run three of it and I like it as an early blocker/Therapy fodder. There's probably something better out there.


What about running Elvish Champions for added power against damage.

I tested my list with -4 Aether Vial +2 land +2 Elvish Champion and I didn't like it. The Forestwalk was never relevant because of Eladamri and the lack of Aether Vial really hurt. The only card I might run them over is Skyshroud Elite.

My current list:
4 Bayou
4 Gilt-Leaf Palace
2 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower

3 Skyshroud Elite
4 Wren's Run Vanquisher
4 Eladamri, Lord of Leaves
4 Wirewood Herald
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Imperious Perfect
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

4 Aether Vial
4 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Eyeblight's Ending

SB
1 Caller of the Claw
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle

[Happy Gilmore]

It really makes me nervous not to have a one drop creature but I have to admit that Skyshroud Elete is the weakest creature in the deck. This says a lot since he is basically a 2/3 for 1 mana. You could Cut him for Llanowar elves which may give you a nice boost. However, I find that this deck never really wants to play a creature before either Vial/Thoughseize/Therapy. I don't see anything at this point I would rather run over him. He still is very efficient and is one of two elves that does not die to Pyroclasm. 3 It probaby fine.

Also the more I think about it the more I like the idea of running white for Gaddock Teeg in the SB. What scares me is when decks like Ichorid/Belcher/TES have the really fast hands where they can lay down atleast 10 tokens on turn 1. A card like EE may be good to combat these quick starts. Other than that pray you get a turn. It might be ok to accept a turn one go off since this deck has so many ways of slowing down combo otherwise with discard.

The SB I really like atm is:
4 Yixlid Jailer
4 Krosan Grip
4 Extripate (turning out fairly good against control and GY based decks)
2 Caller of the Claw
1 Cabal Therapy

I also cut 2 Imperious Perfect for 2 Elvish Champion so I could choose better and up the number of ways to get forestwalk. I rarely ever use Imperious Perfect's ability and more often then not the boost Champion gives is better. Having a forestwalker you can search for and use when vial is at 3 is key. With so many blue based strategies running around I find that storm combo isn't putting up the number to devote huge portions of the SB to. Thorns power is quite amazing but unlike the mono-green version the amount of non-creature spells in this version is a lot higher.

[Nihil Credo]

@Nihil

I like your list and will definitely give it some testing. Do you run into enough mass removal game 1 to warrant Caller of the Claw in the maindeck? I moved her to the sideboard and haven't missed her game 1.

In game 1 I've found myself using it after combat or spot removal. Swing with everything but Perfect, let one of your guys get blocked by a Tarmogoyf, if you're lucky sac something to Therapy/Tower, then pay 2G for 4-6 power of creatures.

It's decent, and it of course shines when you happen to play against control, Pox or Stax (which happens a lot on MWS) but now I want to try out an Elvish Champion in her MD slot. I have new room in the SB after cutting Thorn of Amethyst from it (reason: since I'm now playing more midrange than aggro, and zero LD, it was near-useless as mana denial. I'll replace it with a few copies of Duress, which is almost as good vs. combo but more versatile).


I'd probably cut a Stronghold from your list since 18 land plus Vial has been plenty of mana for me.

You're not running any 4cc guys, and you have ESG, so that's why it works out for you. Mine is running the bare minimum of mana already. And Volrath's Stronghold is strong enough that I intentionally went to two copies, despite its colourless and Legendary status.

Incidentally, how's your Threshold matchup? In my experience, the Messenger (= the reason I don't play Tarmogoyf) is one of the best things to have against that deck - the exact same way Ringleader works for Goblins. Eladamri? Counter. Vial? Counter. Perfect? Kill. Messenger? OH SHIT, NOW I HAVE TO DO IT ALL OVER.

[largebrandon]

Hey guys!

I play Elves in Classic on Magic Online. I know it is a different format completely, but I'd figured that I share my list.

4 Perfect
4 Vanquisher
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Sylvan Messenger
4 Wirewood Herald
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Caller of the Claw

4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Aether Vial
4 Skullclamp
3 Swords to Plowshare
2 Chrome Mox

4 Temple Garden
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
8 Forest

I'd have to say that Skullclamp is the boss in the deck, as I can get a huge engine running quickly! I like the deck, but it is missing the shroud that you all have!

[Kronicler]

And we miss your skullclamp. BTW it is banned in legacy.

Kronicler

[Wynk]

Well, it seems the Eladamri remains as it is. No changes occurred to any paper format besides prismatic.

[Illissius]

Yeah, it seems I had a misconception about when they did Oracle updates. I thought they were done at set releases and B&R announcements, but it seems it's only set releases. So we have until February 1st, another two months.

[technogeek5000]

Umm they probably arent going to change it back or change it again, and theres no sense in banning it because its not like its anymore broken then goyf, or the plethora of legal cards in this format that are better then eladamri.

Oh and brandon i would take skullclamp over eladamri any day.

[insertnamehere]

IMO the only color to splash with elves is Black. The key way to beating any gomo or Goyf based decks is Leyline of the Void, Discard or sheer luck.

[Illissius]

Umm they probably arent going to change it back or change it again, and theres no sense in banning it because its not like its anymore broken then goyf, or the plethora of legal cards in this format that are better then eladamri.

They're not going to change it back, they're going to change it forwards. It'll still be an Elf, but the ability will only affect other Elves, just like every single other card out there with this type of errata. And it'll be done because it's currently incorrect, not because it's powerful.

On another note, I like Nihil's build. With the higher land count, has anyone considered Rofellos? He beats for two if you don't need the mana. Are Smothers better than the last Thoughtseize and Therapy? And has Phyrexian Tower been worthwhile? I'm wary of colorless sources in the deck with Eladamri around. (Volrath's Stronghold does seem plenty powerful enough, however).

[freakish777]

Why are people focused on non blue versios of the deck?

How about something like:

3 Evlish Lyrist
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Skyshroud Elite
4 Eladamri
4 Wren's Run Vanquisher
4 Gaea's Skyfolk
4 Imperious Perfect

3 Jitte

4 FoW
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze

18 lands

SB

3 Viridian Shaman
4 Elvish Champion (comes in against Plague/decks with Forests/etc)
8 other slots

[Happy Gilmore]

Why are people focused on non blue versios of the deck?

How about something like:

3 Evlish Lyrist
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Skyshroud Elite
4 Eladamri
4 Wren's Run Vanquisher
4 Gaea's Skyfolk
4 Imperious Perfect

3 Jitte

4 FoW
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze

18 lands

SB

3 Viridian Shaman
4 Elvish Champion (comes in against Plague/decks with Forests/etc)
8 other slots

Its interesting but you can up the blue count a little more. -4 LLanowar +4 Coiling Oracle (card draw + excelleration). Your list doesn't run ESG which is also iffy. You may need to up the land count a little. Maybe -1 Jitte -1 Skyshroud Elete +2 lands. I really like lyrist, deals with deeds, Survival, and CB.

[largebrandon]

Its interesting but you can up the blue count a little more. -4 LLanowar +4 Coiling Oracle (card draw + excelleration). Your list doesn't run ESG which is also iffy. You may need to up the land count a little. Maybe -1 Jitte -1 Skyshroud Elete +2 lands. I really like lyrist, deals with deeds, Survival, and CB.

Yeah, if you add blue, coiling oracle is sweet stuff. I'd be a nice engine with Wirewood Symbiot. Actually, symbiot seems great with stuff like caller of the claw, too.

[Happy Gilmore]

Yeah, if you add blue, coiling oracle is sweet stuff. I'd be a nice engine with Wirewood Symbiot. Actually, symbiot seems great with stuff like caller of the claw, too.

Unfortunately symbiote is still mediocre, and the slots are tight. I would say that Lyrist adds more funtionality than symbiote.

[insertnamehere]

Unfortunately symbiote is still mediocre, and the slots are tight. I would say that Lyrist adds more funtionality than symbiote.

The symbite mixed with Eladamri is only good for 2 reasons, Loss of creature prevention and Coming into play ability. If you Champion the Messanger for Packmaster later on bouncing the packmaster to your hand, the messanger's coming into play ability triggers getting you more elves.

Also, Joiner Adept allows you to tap your land for man of any color so you can realistically run 5 color.

[freakish777]

the messanger's coming into play ability triggers getting you more elves.

Any version of this deck with Eladamri probably shouldn't be played/built like Goblins. You're creatures just aren't scary enough, either on their own, or even in conjunction (the only exception to this is if you can race with more creatures when your opponent is playing Forests and you have Elvish Champion down...).

It would probably be better to try and play it like a slightly more aggressive version (read, higher creature count) of Counter-Slivers (your creatures seem a bit better on their own then Slivers, and a bit worse in conjunction then Slivers). Kind of a hybrid between Goblins and Counter-Slivers, leaning much heavier towards Counter-Slivers.

I just realized Jitte in my list is a dead draw with Eladamri out in my suggested list, which, well, makes things less good by far.

Gilmore's revisions are probably right.

[Kuma]

Problem with Elvish Lyrist is that you need to wait a turn to use it and it dies to Engineered Plague. Survival and Deed can also be activated in response to a Lyrist. The more I think about it, the more I'm liking Krosan Grip, even if it isn't tutorable with Herald. Lyrist might be better than Elf Replica as a 1-of in the sideboard if your meta has little to no Engineered Plague in it.

EDIT: I like Elvish Lyrist more than Elf Replica. The three mana you save vs. Stax, plus the ability to have an additional turn one blocker against Goblins outweighs being able to destroy Engineered Plague ATM. I really hope they print something in Morningtide that reads "GG, Tribal Instant - Elf, Destroy target Artifact or Enchantment." That would solve all the problems.

[insertnamehere]

I was looking at all of the different elves and noticed Joiner Adept (All lands tap for a mana of any color) I think 5 color green Elves could be possable with the back up of eldamari.

Also. I toyed with Messanger, wirewood symbiote and Packmaster, this really speeds up the card draw in the deck.

[technogeek5000]

The problem with joiner adept is that you opponents get to tap for all colors to. You open your self to five colors and if you dont have adept out then you have alot of dead cards.

Messenger is the elven ringleader so its a auto include, symbiote is ok and its great with messenger, saving your guys from removal, and combat tricks. The mana it makes with priest was a little overkill for me because i already have gaes cradle in addition to my priest and unless you chain multiple messengers you wont be using all that excess mana. I have yet to test packmaster but it seems realy broken with cradle.

[insertnamehere]

The problem with joiner adept is that you opponents get to tap for all colors to. You open your self to five colors and if you dont have adept out then you have alot of dead cards.

Lands you control have ": Add one mana of any color to your mana pool."
In regards to the second sentance, I am working on ways to get him out there faster, Ala Tutors or Skyshroud Poacker.

[technogeek5000]

Sorry, i thought it was give all lands rainbow. Even still, i dont think its worth playing subpar cards to use adept. What do you realy need to splash for outside of black. The combo MU and decks packing mass are the matchups that this has a hard time dealing with and this deck has enough answers to combo even without going to the second color. When you splash black you get thoughtsieze/duress which helps even more. That leaves decks with mass (Landstill is the biggest problem here that i have found) and those could be answered by claw or grip. I like grip because they cant respond to it but its less narrow then claw. Also claw is a reactive card rather then a proactive card, so if you tapped out then your done.

Oh and i made a slight change to my list:

-1 jagged-scar
+1 Elvish champion

[Curby]

They're not going to change it back, they're going to change it forwards. It'll still be an Elf, but the ability will only affect other Elves, just like every single other card out there with this type of errata. And it'll be done because it's currently incorrect, not because it's powerful.

If they do that, they better unLegendize him to be like the other Lords. :wink:



Oh and i made a slight change to my list:

This is your mono-green build, right? Could you please post or PM the full list? I've lost track of the different changes made. Thanks!

[technogeek5000]

I have finished testing packmasters in place of jagged scar and i have to say that i am pleased with them. They improve aggro matchups (most importantly goblins) and matchups with mass removal. It survives pyroclasm, the opponent rarely has enough colors to kill it with e explosives, and even when it does die you still get the creature you safe havened. A neat trick is to champion a messenger so when it dies you get the ringleader effect. It swings the tide against goblins, giving you 2-4 wolves a turn, and its almost always good game when you have a priest/cradle out with it. Not to mention that it also has a respectable 5/5 body... often the same size as a jagged-scar


This is your mono-green build, right? Could you please post or PM the full list? I've lost track of the different changes made. Thanks!

My current list is:

14 forest
4 Llanowar elves
4 Priest of titania
4 imperious perfect
4 Elvish champion
4 eladamri
4 messenger
4 Wren's run vanquisher
4 thorn of amethyst
4 ESG
3 Wren's run packmaster
3 wasteland
2 gae's cradle
2 fyndhorn

SB:
4 Leyline of the void
4 Chalice of the void
4 Choke
3 Caller of the claw

[Curby]

Thanks for the list. How important is Cradle to the deck? I could add Wirewood Channelers and I even have a Rofellos, but Cradle is a bit out of my budget right now.

I notice your entire list doesn't have any Disenchant effects. What would you do against the random Worship that enters play?

How do you use Chalice of the Void without Aether Vials? Is it only for setting to 0 and 1? Chalice for 2 or 3 hurts you a lot too.

Aside: My list is a lot like yours, except with a splash of Goblin Bombardment in place of Thorn and some Wirewood Heralds to pull good Elves with Bombardment. It's meant to be more fun than effective, but the added damage source and removal is pleasant, and makes dual use of all our tokens. (By the way, I killed a Goblin deck with Goblin Bombardment. Irony is fun.)

[technogeek5000]

Cradle is the most important acceleration the deck has. Rofellos, channelers, and even priest all pale in comparison to cradle. I would invest in these for the deck before i invest in any other cards or splash.

Against the random worship i respond by scooping or figure out if i can force a loss by decking (which has happened actually). Worship doesnt come up enough so that the hate i have in place of naturalize/grip will win me more games then destroying a worship ever could.

I only use my chalice against decks like TES or goyf sligh and the like so i realy only need to set it at 0 or 1.

[Kuma]

I decided to try out Wren's Run Packmaster in the BG version as a one of and it has been great. Being able to repeatedly create creatures with deathtouch give you all kinds of staying power in the long game, and as a one of you don't really have to worry about drawing him early. I also finally found a sideboard I'm happy with. I'm working on acquiring the cards to build this and once I do I'm going to take it to some tournaments for some real testing. The only thing I don't like is the manabase; I just can't find one I'm happy with.

My Current List

4x Bayou
3x Wooded Foothills
2x Windswept Heath
1x Polluted Delta
6x Forest
1x Swamp
1x Phyrexian Tower

4x Wirewood Herald
4x Imperious Perfect
4x Wren's Run Vanquisher
4x Eladamri, Lord of Leaves
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
1x Wren's Run Packmaster
2x Skyshroud Elite
4x Tarmogoyf

3x Cabal Therapy
4x Eyeblight's Ending
4x Thoughtseize
4x Aether Vial

Sideboard
4x Leyline of the Void
3x Krosan Grip
4x Pithing Needle
3x Engineered Plague
1x Caller of the Claw

[Finn]

I am very interested in what the thoughts are concerning the errata for Eladamri. If Wizards was going to make changes like I am hearing, why didn't they do it when they changed his creature type in the first place? I think that if they go messing with him at all any more, it will be another debacle. Unless they come out and say "oops, we meant to make it say 'other elves'", they will have to make power-level errata, and we know a) they have still not admit to making a mistake with Flash or Time Vault, and b) they are actively removing power-level errata.

I have to say, however that I consider Eladamri in this deck to be an enormously powerful card. When I have played against this deck, once he hit play it was like seeing a Chalice for my removal cards that attacked for atleast two each turn. Consequently, I was prone to doing things like STP on the first turn Llanowar Elf just because I figured it was unlikely to be useful later on. He alone makes this deck a contender imo. I fear the card, and I am anxious to see what Wizards does.

My guess is that Wizards is unlikely to do anything while this deck is as unpopular as it is. They will wait until there is a problem. And since it is Legacy, they will wait some more. Then they will make a change just days before the next major event.

[enemyofarsenic]

will Wolf-Skull Shaman see play in this deck? is it worth the slot? grizzly bear that could possibly give us another grizzly bear during upkeep?

[Nihil Credo]

Without library manipulation, I'm not touching WSS with a ten-foot pole, and I can't think of any manipulation spell I'd want to run in Crystalline Elves.

[technogeek5000]

Shaman isnt realy worth it i think. I put in vanquishers place as that was the weakest in the deck and it dosnt realy do anything. Making wolves realy doesnt help the deck because its strength is making a mass of strong creatures. I would much rather just play abig creature that pwns goyf then a dinky creature that can chump goyf every other turn.

Oh and packmaster is awesome, and if eladamri is changed back i might have to cut myself. I blew good money on their game and if they just go and decide to invalidate that on a technicaility on their part id be pissed. Eladamri isnt anymore broken then goyf and it makes a new deck playable and one of the great things about this format is the variety of viable decks there are.

[B4L4]

Without Eladamri, i think we can try wirewood symbiote instead
And maybe the symbiote + multani acolyte + vial@2 would be worth

Some Shaman (not 4of) may be good if u are running some fetch

[technogeek5000]

Without Eladamri, i think we can try wirewood symbiote instead
And maybe the symbiote + multani acolyte + vial@2 would be worth

Some Shaman (not 4of) may be good if u are running some fetch

Without eladamri we should all stop playing this deck. Killing the 4-8 cards in the average deck that affect us the most is probably the reason to play this over goblins.

[Happy Gilmore]

Without eladamri we should all stop playing this deck. Killing the 4-8 cards in the average deck that affect us the most is probably the reason to play this over goblins.

I'm afraid i have to agree, if the erata changes (as it should) there will be little reason to play this over other agro decks.

[Illissius]

I am very interested in what the thoughts are concerning the errata for Eladamri. If Wizards was going to make changes like I am hearing, why didn't they do it when they changed his creature type in the first place? I think that if they go messing with him at all any more, it will be another debacle. Unless they come out and say "oops, we meant to make it say 'other elves'", they will have to make power-level errata, and we know a) they have still not admit to making a mistake with Flash or Time Vault, and b) they are actively removing power-level errata.
...
My guess is that Wizards is unlikely to do anything while this deck is as unpopular as it is. They will wait until there is a problem. And since it is Legacy, they will wait some more. Then they will make a change just days before the next major event.

I think it was a simple error. They updated an hillion creature types all at once, and forgot to update Eladamri's text to fit. As such, I think they'll just go "oops" and fix it with the next Oracle update. It's not power level errata, because the original card is not an Elf while affecting all Elves; to get roughly equivalent functionality, they need to make it affect every other Elf while being an Elf himself, like every other card of this type (Goblin King, Elvish Champion, etc.).

[Finn]

Well, the other creature that does essentially the same thing is Crystalline Sliver. That is how he is templated now, so either fashion could be used. But you are certainly right that he is functionally different.

What a bunch of dildoes they have doing this stuff. If I made half this number of giant mistakes in such short order at my job, I would not be employed anymore.

The uncertainty makes me unwilling to invest the time and energy into this deck that I want to.

[technogeek5000]

This deck might actually be playable even if eladamri gets axed. Both merfolk and goblins get the new Banneret creature and I have a suspicion that elves will get 1. This will help the deck alot as it makes all the creatures come down faster and perfect can be casted for 1 mana because it is a elf and a warrior along with several other creatures in this deck. Also elementals and merfolk both have gotten a new lord so far so theres probably gonna be a new one for elves.

[Finn]

...perfect can be casted for 1 mana because it is a elf and a warrior...
No man. It doesn't work that way. It would still be very good for this deck, but you don't get to double dip that way. To compare wording look up Aven Brigadier for the templating designed to give you both.

[paragon22]

Yeah, that would be nice if they print a Banneret creature for Elves. Here's a list I've been working on that focuses on mana denial; it's sort of a green version of Goblins:

Land (22)
14 Forest
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

Creatures (34)
4 Skyshroud Elite
4 Sylvan Messenger
4 Imperious Perfect
4 Banneret
4 Elvish Harbinger
4 Wren's Run Vanquisher
4 ESG
3 Eladamri
2 Wren's Run Packmaster
1 Caller of the Claw

Other (4)
4 Aether Vial

Aether Vial really makes the deck tick. It's nice Vialing in a Packmaster of Eladamri and basically countering one of your opponent's spells. And of course it works nicely with the land destruction package. It might be better to splash white for Swords to Plowshares though, since I often found myself wishing for some kind of creature removal during the few times I tested the deck against Dragon Stompy and Goblins.

[Happy Gilmore]

What a bunch of dildoes they have doing this stuff.

Is this really the word you were looking for?