Conspiracy in Block Design?

[Bovinious]

So I was thinking about the order blocks have came out over the years, and I noticed something, ever since Urza Block its gone broken artifact block, terrible block, multi-colored block, fair-and-balanced block, tribal block.

For instance:

Urza's, Masques, Invasion, Odyssey, Onslought

THEN RIGHT AFTER

Mirrodin, Kamigawa, Ravnica, Time Spiral, Lorwyn


The similarities are all there! Even between Time Spiral and Odyssey, both sets had some of worst rares ever (Tombfire, Mudhole, Pedantic Learning, Norin the Wary, Moonlace, Swarmyard). Odyssey block introduced flashback and Time Spiral brought it back! THE CONNECTIONS ARE EVERYWHERE! You can even see WOTC's first failed attempt at this cycle in Antiquities, followed by Legends (which had tons of shitty rares AND the first multicolored spells)!
What does this mean for Shadowmoor? Broken artifact block IF WOTC CONTINUES THIS!

What does everyone else think about WOTC's secret block agenda?

[boris13]

Magic is doomed.

Dude, haven't we been down this road before? Warning for lack of content. Again. - Bardo

[Machinus]

People caught on to this a few years ago.

I would probably play Standard if they printed fun-themed blocks once in a while. That's Tempest, which they left out because they are retarded.

[Cait_Sith]

Side note: Urza's was not designed as an artifact block. They just stupidly broke every rule of artifact design, plus gave blue all sorts of draw, tutoring, and MANA ACCEL, to make their mistakes truly epic.

Urza's was supposed to have a major enchantment theme, but the fact that the artifacts were so over the top made people miss this (until Replenish decks became the thing).

Also, they tend to tone down the power level of a block immediately following an overpowered block, to avoid T2 from becoming utter crap.

Also, Kamigawa had a design flaw of being too insular. Design and flavor wise, it was actually well done in Block, but it could not mix in well in T2, so only the most over the top cards could do anything.

Another note: Your connection between Time Spiral and Odyssey is tenuous at best. Time Spiral also brought psuedo-interrupts. Odyssey had nothing like interrupts. Time Spiral has buyback. Odyssey did not have buyback. Odyssey block has 2 color specific blocks. Time Spiral had 0 color specific blocks.

Honestly Ravnica has more design synergy with Odyssey because of Dredge and Hellbent than Time Spiral does.

[Bovinious]

it wasnt supposed to be a broken artifact block but it was, Tinker/Memory Jar/Voltaic Key/Metalworker/Grim Monolith are a whole lot better than Replenish, Attunement, and Parallax Wave.

[Skinny Oprah]

Shadowmoor: Affinity's Holy Grail?

[Cait_Sith]

it wasnt supposed to be a broken artifact block but it was, Tinker/Memory Jar/Voltaic Key/Metalworker/Grim Monolith are a whole lot better than Replenish, Attunement, and Parallax Wave.

Regardless, it stills shows that your pattern is faulty because you are arguing a design pattern where one block was for enchantments and the other for artifacts.

[Bovinious]

Uhh the other 4 things still line up, plus id also argue Urza;s was enchantments AND artifacts, there seemed to be plenty of both. Either way, the pattern has manifested itself whether WOTC wanted to or not, Im sure they didnt plan Masques/Kamigawa to suck arse.

[Cait_Sith]

The article is gone now, but they did intend it to be a very low power block.

Also, Kamigawa did not "suck arse." Althouh it did have a glaring flaw, the fact that is was able to successfully expand a well known type, something that Masques did not do, also weakens your conspiracy theory.

Also, the fact that the design did not follow this "cycle" previous to Urza's AND the fact each part is not linked (Broken-Bad-Color-Balanced-Tribal) makes it a very screwy proposition to begin with. You are BASING this on subjective evidence. Empirical data from different sources will nor even line up.

[DeathwingZERO]

I'd like to know why people think that the Kamigawa block is even on par with the Masques block as far as "sucking" goes. In all honesty, I thought Kamigawa was a great block, but should have been in between Onslaught and Mirrodin, rather than after. At that point we would have had more emphasis on playing randomly powerful multi-colored decks (dragonstorm would have been awesome in Standard then, for example), Goblins and Elves wouldn't have had abusive cards to fuel them (Skullclamp, I'm looking at you), and we would have had more of an impact on what Kamigawa would have done to Standard, seeing as Mirrodin was to blame for such a horribly flawed Standard for it's 2 years anyways, not even giving Kamigawa a fair chance to shine, unlike what Onslaught would have given it.

Plus, we would have gone from Mirrodin into Ravnica, which I think all can agree would have been INSANE to see. In that type of Standard environment, I'm curious if Affinity or Tooth and Nail would have even been as one sided as they were, post-Clamp banning.

[Bovinious]

Kamigawa had like 4 playable cards: Jitte, Needle, Gifts...cant even think of any more...Sakura Tribe Elder MAYBE?

It was in the order it was OBVIOUSLY to mirror the previous 5 blocks, and of course this is subjective but no one who knows how to play magic would disagree that those descriptions are pretty good fits for the corresponding blocks. But yeah this thread was more meant to be LULZ and not for serious, although the trend is definitely there...

[The Rack]

Tarmogoyf isn't balanced compared to anything Odyssey can conjure.

[Bovinious]

WHOA that made me think of another similarity, Psychatog (from Odyssey block) was arguably the best creature ever until Tarmogoyf (Time Spiral block) was printed. Both sets had a busted in half creature, wow this theory is so good.

[Bardo]

Kamigawa had like 4 playable cards: Jitte, Needle, Gifts...cant even think of any more...Sakura Tribe Elder MAYBE?

Wizards has said repeatedly that they don't make cards for Eternal. I mean, from time to time, there have been exceptions; MaRo saying Mirrodin was an effort to make Vintage-playable cards, etc. I also wouldn't be surprised if some of the R&D randoms occasionally think: "How is this going to fuck Legacy/Vintage?" But these are really the exceptions to their practice.

Wizards, a division of Hasbro, is in the business of selling cards, and if we were their sole clinetele, Wizards' would have flopped around the time of Visions-Weatherlight. The game survives on the back of:

1) Casual Players
2) Limited
3) Block and Standard

I might have 2 and 3 backwards, but anyhow, Eternal is not their bread and butter. So interpreting the "crash and burn / rise from the ashes" cycle isn't helpful when looking at blocks from an Eternal perspective.

To the quote above, Kamigawa had a ton of powerful and playable cards, that like almost all cards, fails the Eternal crucible: Cranial Extraction, Kokusho, Gift Ungiven, Keiga, Meloku, Kodama of the North Tree, Isamaru, Sickening Shoal, etc. But, being less critical and getting away from Eternal, Kamigawa was a cool block that had fucking Ninjas in it. I'll admit, Saviors was kind of a bust, but there have been worse sets, I suppose.


What does this mean for Shadowmoor? Broken artifact block IF WOTC CONTINUES THIS!

They're trying something funky with the block structure this year (Big + Little // Big + Little), so I don't think this formula will hold true. If Lorwyn and Shadowmoor are related, they're probably around a creature theme, since they've said they're somehow related, and Lorwyn is overwhelmingly a creature block.

[TheGhostofChristmasPast]

So I was thinking about the order blocks have came out over the years, and I noticed something, ever since Urza Block its gone broken artifact block, terrible block, multi-colored block, fair-and-balanced block, tribal block.


Mark Rosewater has stated in numerous articles on Wizards' site that, yes, they do, in fact, bring back popular themes for their blocks. Read Monday's article. Tribal and Multi-Colored blocks will keep coming back as long as this game is in print. And they will probably occur about once every four to five years like you pointed out. This is because we, as players, need time after a theme is in print to get it out of our system before we would want to see it again. For example, I do not know very many people who would like to have extended, standard or draft be all about tribal for say three years.

That being said, I do not agree with your analysis of Masques and Kamigawa being terrible blocks. Nor do I think that Wizards would intentionally produce a product they know people would not like. They are still in the business of making money after all. I also do not agree with your assessment of Odyssey or Time Spiral being "fair and balanced." What constitutes terrible and good? Playability in Legacy? Vintage? Standard? Casual? Sales figures? Market research?

[MattH]

Kamigawa had like 4 playable cards: Jitte, Needle, Gifts...cant even think of any more...Sakura Tribe Elder MAYBE?
Have all seen competetive Eternal play:
Umezawa's Jitte
Gifts Ungiven
Pithing Needle
Sensei's Divining Top
Isamaru, Hound of Konda
Twincast
Desperate Ritual
Forbidden Orchard
Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
Ninja of the Deep Hours
Threads of Disloyalty
Tomb of Urami

5 COK, 4 BOK, 3 SOK

Conceivably could see competetive Eternal play:
Ideas Unbound
Meloku the Clouded Mirror
Disrupting Shoal
Erayo, Soratami Ascendent
Cranial Extraction
Ghostly Prison
Glimpse of Nature
Goryo's Vengeance
Footsteps of the Goryo (with Protean Hulk)
Sickening Shoal
Sakura-Tribe Elder

Have seen Extended play but not likely to see Eternal play:
Heartbeat of Spring
Thoughts of Ruin
Shuko

plus random stuff like wish-targets Hideous Laughter, Eye of Nowhere, and Cleanfall.

I didn't really even like Kami block, but it's incorrect to say it didn't contribute its share of cards, even to Eternal. They just don't grab your attention the way some sets do.

Masques block is another one that is unfairly lambasted. It gave us Squee, Port, Daze, Misdirection, and Gush! Plus some roleplayers like Waterfront Bouncer. Prophecy really stunk it up though, the best card I can remember from that set was Foil. EDIT: Spiketail Hatchling!

[Barook]

I wouldn't say it's a conspiracy, it's rather a lack of ideas. That's the reason why they're recycling old concepts (with a new twist) in recent years.

Ravnica was another gold block, TS was a total recycling block (with the exception of FS which shined with new ideas and concepts) and Lorwyn is another Tribal block. Shadowmoor (the new "big" expansion) is going to have a strong tribal theme, too, or otherwise, it won't fit into the inter-block-synergy.

However, I would be really suprised if Wizards is dumb enough to repeat the same cycle again and gives us another, broken (Artifact) block with the Fall 2008 expansion.

[Cait_Sith]

I wouldn't say it's a conspiracy, it's rather a lack of ideas. That's the reason why they're recycling old concepts (with a new twist) in recent years.

Actually they have had some great ideas. Its called "give the people what they want."

Invasion was fairly popular, so lets bring back those golden days, but this time we can avoid forcing people to play 3-4 colors be focusing our golden cards on color pair.

The tribal theme of Onslaught was immensely popular, but I remember people being upset because the block as a whole fell flat rather quickly. Lorwyn is revisiting that theme, sure, but Onslaught had nothing like Tribal; it focused more on current and well known tribes, while Lorwyn has some very old (Merfolk), some current, (Goblin/Elf), and some pretty much new (Elemental, Faerie, Giant, Kithkin, Treefolf).

[Citrus-God]

However, I would be really suprised if Wizards is dumb enough to repeat the same cycle again and gives us another, broken (Artifact) block with the Fall 2008 expansion.

Apparently, they're making Green more broken. Expect green Brainstorms, Counterspell, FoWs, Gifts Ungiven, FoF, Portents, Predicts, Ponders, and gasp*! Gaea's Cradle ad Rofellos are being restricted in Vintage, because playing Survival for Goyfs is apparently broken.

[Illissius]

I'll admit, Saviors was kind of a bust, but there have been worse sets, I suppose.

Prophecy! Which was the third set of... *drumroll* Masques block! Conspiracy!

Anyways, the discussion about whether Masques and Kamigawa suck or do not is pointless, because that was never the point. (Personally, I adore Kamigawa, while Masques gets a solid "feh".) The point is that they were noticeably less powerful on average than the blocks before and after them, which is popular opinion. If you start lining up the cards from Masques and Invasion or from Kamigawa and Ravnica blocks ordered by power level (let's not even mention Urza's and Mirrodin), while you might get some competition at the top (Gush, Port, Lin-Sivvi, Jitte, Gifts, Isamaru), I expect you'll get into "dreck" territory much faster with Masques and Kamigawa.

I personally noticed the pattern before Lorwyn, so it's fortuitous that Lorwyn is following it. And yeah, the real test will be whether we get another artifact-flavored block in the Autumn of 2008. Was Mirrodin "widely loved"? I really liked the flavor myself* (while hating some of the specific cards), but they may not bring it back if it didn't have as much mass appeal as multicolor or tribal do. (Incidentally, what about Odyssey? If it was relatively unpopular, that could be why Time Spiral skipped a beat in the pattern).

* It seems flavor has a huge impact on my fondness for a given block, seeing how I dislike both Masques and Onslaught (the latter intensely), but love Kamigawa and am willing to forgive Lorwyn its linear sins because of their inventive and excellently done flavor.

[Lego]

Conceivably could see competetive Eternal play:
Meloku the Clouded Mirror

Why the lack of love for the Clouded Mirror all the sudden? Meloku does see play in Eternal, currently, right now as a win condition in Gush Storm. He's been a win con in several other good Vintage decks in the past as well.

[MattH]

Masques block:

Land Grant
Invigorate
Reverent Silence
Skyshroud Cutter
Pack Hunt
Land Grant is a big one. Silence is marginal, and the rest are never used (have never been used) in competitive decks.

Also: Food Chain


Prophecy! Which was the third set of... *drumroll* Masques block! Conspiracy!
And Conspiracy was printed in...MERCADIAN MASQUES! omg


If you start lining up the cards from Masques and Invasion
IIRC, Masques block had a lot more presence in their shared Standard than Invasion did. It was all Blastoderm and Rebels until Apocalypse. Invasion was a lot COOLER though.


Why the lack of love for the Clouded Mirror all the sudden? Meloku does see play in Eternal, currently, right now as a win condition in Gush Storm.
I was not aware of this. Good for him, then. (though why aren't they killing with Tendrils, as the name suggests?)

Here's the Masques list, of all the cards I think could ever make it into Eternal:

Accumulated knowledge
Blastoderm
Cave-In
Daze
Dust Bowl
Food Chain
Gush
Land Grant
Massacre
Misdirection
Parallax Wave
Ramosian Sergeant
Rishadan Port
Seal of Fire
Spiketail Hatchling
Squee, Goblin Nabob
Tangle Wire
Unmask

10 MM, 7 NE, 1 PY

MAYBE/ROLE PLAYERS
Aura Fracture
Devout Witness
Ensnare
Foil
5 Hickory Woodlot (cycle)
Honor the Fallen
Nether Spirit
Parallax Tide
Reverent Silence
Saproling Burst
Seal of Doom
Snuff Out
Story Circle
Submerge
Thwart
Trade Routes
Vine Dryad
Waterfront Bouncer
Woodripper

Invasion list coming!

[Mijorre]

Because they stifle it.
That's when you drop the ACTUAL bomb.
Or something.

Damn you Vintage, stop being confusing!

[MattH]

Invasion block:

Cavern Harpy
Chromatic Sphere
Eladamri's Call
Fact or Fiction
Fire // Ice
Flametongue Kavu
Gerrard's Verdict
Hull Breach
Meddling Mage
Opt
Orim's Chant
Pernicious Deed
Quirion Dryad
Sterling Grove
Vindicate

Notice how much of the 'definite' list is from which set: 4 Invasion, 4 Apocalypse, 7 Planeshift. I remember Planeshift being the "weak middle set" that was so overshadowed by its brothers, heh.

MAYBE/ROLE PLAYERS
5 Painlands & cycle
5 Ancient Spring & cycle
Armadillo Cloak
Aura Mutation
Artifact Mutation
Breath of Darigaaz
Collective Restraint
Destructive Flow
Diabolic Intent
Dismantling Blow (well, it was in Keeper ages ago...)
Dodecapod
Draco
Dueling Grounds
Gaea's Might
Galina's Knight
Gaea's Skyfolk
Mana Maze
Obliterate
Nightscape Familiar
Plague Spitter
Prohibit
Shivan Harvest
Terminate
Tribal Flames
Tsabo's Web
Teferi's Response
Urza's Rage
Wash Out
Wax // Wane

Some of these were a stretch (Gaea's Skyfolk?) but that should be more or less complete. I didn't think Absorb or Undermine would ever be worth it in Eternal, but Prohibit might someday see play in a deck with a lot of colorless mana sources like Blue Tron or something.

[Bardo]

The point is that they were noticeably less powerful on average than the blocks before and after them, which is popular opinion.
This isn't an opinion--Rosewater has openly said that power in the game swings on a pendulum. When it swings too far to "nutty," they pull it back to "tame." That Kamigawa followed Mirrodin was no conspiracy, it was R&D's openly avowed method to create power variance between blocks.

When something happens out in the open, in the public forum, it is not a conspiracy, by definition.

[Lego]

I was not aware of this. Good for him, then. (though why aren't they killing with Tendrils, as the name suggests?)

They like to play several win conditions, so Empty the Warrens, Tinker --> Colossus, and Meloku are the answers. I think GAT is probably just better because of the win con thing. I believe Tendrils is out because they don't generate a high enough storm count.

Sooooo, back to Black Design?

[DeathwingZERO]

Land Grant is a big one. Silence is marginal, and the rest are never used (have never been used) in competitive decks.

IIRC, Masques block had a lot more presence in their shared Standard than Invasion did. It was all Blastoderm and Rebels until Apocalypse. Invasion was a lot COOLER though.

I was not aware of this. Good for him, then. (though why aren't they killing with Tendrils, as the name suggests?)

Manaless Ichorid in Vintage is currently using 4 Reverent Silence as a SB option vs Leylines and GAT/Gush Storm abusing Fastbond. While I'd agree it is a pretty slim showing, a DtB in Vintage packing 4 of them is at least better than nothing, right?

I seem to remember a deck by the name of Fires, that took off right after Invasion came out, thanks to the Birds & Elves, Raging Kavu, Blastoderm, Urza's Rage, and Fires of Yavimaya, which only got better when Planeshift gave us Flametongue Kavu. I remember this deck being the defining one for Invasion taking the top slots over Masques, as it smashed Rebels pretty thoroughly. Blastoderm was good, but I also remember the deck not caring much after Masques rotated out and losing it.

We also had a very solid U/B/r or w "rogue" control build that powered out Crosis/Dromar(later Iridescent Angel, after Odyssey split into both U/B and U/W control builds, dropping red) for the win, while playing Undermine/Absorb, Crosis' Charm, Urza's Rage, Recoil, and the like.

So I'd have to say that in all honesty, Invasion block based Standard decks popped up far before Apocalypse came out. They were just perfected at that point, thanks to the off-color painlands, Vindicate, etc.

As far as Gush Storm goes, it's pretty much been covered why Tendrils isn't in there, but in Storm's defense: EtW + Time Walk is a much better play than Tendrils + Walk. The storm count on the deck without Will is typically 5-6, which is pretty terrible for Tendrils builds, but great for EtW or Meloku, thanks to insane mana generation.

[MattH]

Manaless Ichorid in Vintage is currently using 4 Reverent Silence as a SB option vs Leylines and GAT/Gush Storm abusing Fastbond. While I'd agree it is a pretty slim showing, a DtB in Vintage packing 4 of them is at least better than nothing, right?
Which is why I listed it, albeit under "Role player," which is exactly what RS is.


I seem to remember a deck by the name of Fires, that took off right after Invasion came out, thanks to the Birds & Elves, Raging Kavu, Blastoderm, Urza's Rage, and Fires of Yavimaya, which only got better when Planeshift gave us Flametongue Kavu. I remember this deck being the defining one for Invasion taking the top slots over Masques, as it smashed Rebels pretty thoroughly. Blastoderm was good, but I also remember the deck not caring much after Masques rotated out and losing it.
That's funny, I remember Fires decks completely disappearing after Masques rotated. It was replaced in Invasion/Odyssey Standard with a much more aggressive and zoo-like R/G deck called "Frog in a Blender" that was more focused around the 1- and 2-drops, especially Wild Mongrel, the better to fight emerging Psychatog decks. It certainly eschewed the Llanowar Elves and BOPs and 28 lands that were so characteristic of Fires.

I also don't remember it using Raging Kavu. The core was 8 accel, 28ish lands, 4 Derm 4 Fires 4 Burst, and some random burn. They started out with River Boas but dropped them. Kibler splashed white for Cloak and the RGW dragon (Rith?) and Geddon, in its final T2 appearance.


We also had a very solid U/B/r or w "rogue" control build that powered out Crosis/Dromar(later Iridescent Angel, after Odyssey split into both U/B and U/W control builds, dropping red) for the win, while playing Undermine/Absorb, Crosis' Charm, Urza's Rage, Recoil, and the like.
Go-Mar was eventually a top deck, but it had a long evolution. In the beginning it was based around, of all things, Evil Eye of Orms-By-Gore, which had six toughness to block a Blastoderm with :D. It evolved to use Nether Spirit, another strong anti-Derm (often discarded via Probe), and eventually Dromar, the Banisher.

I don't remember Iridescent Angel being used much at all. Immediately prior to Odyssey, Desolation Angel was being used as a finisher, and immediately after Odyssey's release, Psychatog decks were the control decks of choice, and after Torment, the format settled into a very long period of being utterly dominated by blue decks - at one point the top 3 decks were U/b Tog, U/w/r Trenches, and U/g Opposition. Most everyone stopped caring about Standard for a few months while that was working itself out - including, I believe, the Worlds that Carlos Romao won, when he found a way to trump the Tog mirror (by fighting only over Tog and Upheaval).

You also seem to be confusing the UBW Go-Mar lists with the UBR lists, which often would run 1-2 Nether Spirits and Urza's Rage as their only win conditions. I remember at least one build that used a kicked Rage, followed by another kicked Rage played via Yawgmoth's Agenda as its primary win. I don't think this deck survived the appearance of TurboHaups though.