[Deck] Knights!

[satellites]

Or - It's only a flesh wound!

There was an article a couple of days ago on magicthegathering.com about a Standard deck idea using Haakon, Stromgald Scourge, and a bunch of changeling guys to make your graveyard your hand. The article's author complained that a lot of awesome knights had double color CCs, and left them out.

So, I was thinking, in Legacy, we have lots of ways to make double color and not affect tempo too much, so I put together a list. I've been playing it on MWS tonight, and it's been doing fairly well.

Here it is - ideas and suggestions most definitely welcome.

// Lands
4 [U] Scrubland
4 [GP] Godless Shrine
5 [TE] Swamp (4)
3 [UG] Plains
2 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Flooded Strand

// Creatures
4 [CS] Haakon, Stromgald Scourge
2 [LOR] Ghostly Changeling
3 [LOR] Knight of Meadowgrain
2 [U] Black Knight
4 [PT] Mercenary Knight
3 [EX] Paladin en-Vec
1 [LOR] Mirror Entity

// Spells
3 [LOR] Crib Swap
4 [LOR] Nameless Inversion
4 [OD] Buried Alive
4 [US] Duress
4 [OD] Innocent Blood

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [IA] Order of the Sacred Torch
SB: 4 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [IA] Stromgald Cabal
SB: 1 [TSP] Tivadar of Thorn


Since Crib Swap and Nameless Inversion have changeling, you can play them from your grave with Haakon, too, which is pretty neat. I'm thinking that the weak spot is Innocent Blood, but I don't know what to put in its place. I'm thinking something to make graveyard hate not as harsh, but I don't know what...

[Skinny Oprah]

I think this is too easily hated out, but I'd like to see where this is going

[iOWN]

I would definitely look into a blue splash. Court Hussar was popular in Standard, and while it requires a bit of mana investment, is a great card advantage engine. You also have access to cantrips and other draw spells that cause you to discard, like Careful Study or Compulsive Research, which are less narrow than Buried Alive. Force of Will and Daze would also be solid additions to make this more fish-esque, as currently it can't do much against combo and has a rather slow clock.

Aggro-control, leaning more towards the control side, is probably a good place to go with this idea. You've got a very resilient creature base, but it is in no case fast or particularly powerful, making it a better late game force.

Ego Erasure is also interesting, because you can actually use it to stall the game out in many situations (Goblins, Ichorid, EtW tokens, and Tarmogoyf if you can use it multiple times each turn).

If a fish-like deck isn't what you want, I would consider playing more disruption. Thoughtseize and Cabal Therapy both want slots. Umezawa's Jitte is good against aggro and generally makes creatures a lot scarier. Chrome Mox also would not be a bad addition. Your mana curve is rather high, and you've got no means of lengthening the game. Chrome Mox lets you pump out 2cc threats on turn one, and also speeds up the expensive removal.

As for the list you've got now, probably drop the Ghostly Changelings for something more powerful, and the shocklands for more fetches or basics.

[MattH]

I had this exact same idea, except you are missing one of the most powerful pieces. I'll post it in a few days; for now here's a hint: it's black, and not a creature.

[Jaynel]

Buried Alive? Pretty much 2B, search your Library for Haakon and two other Knights and put them into your hand.

[Barook]

Cabal Therapy is just way too great for this deck to be not included. It can put Haakon into the graveyard, can be put into the yard by Buried Alive and the sacced creatures can be easily replayed via Haakon.

I would also start to play good Knights. Silver Knight instead of Paladin, more Black Knights.

Jitte should be excellet here with lots of protected first strikers. Crap Swap instead of StP? This just sounds so bad.

I would also seriously consider AEther Vial. Helps fixing your mana and goes around the drawback of both Haakon and Mercenary Knight.

[Jaynel]

Mercenary Knight's CIP still triggers off of Vial. And Buried Alive can't dump Cabal Therapies in the yard. Triple Entomb it isn't.

Regardless, they're both really good ideas.

[Barook]

Meh, MWS was wrong on Mercenary Knight. It said "if you played it from your hand" which isn't the latest oracle text anymore.

And you're right about Buried Alive.

[MattH]

I actually had not thought of Buried Alive, although I should have since it's one of my favorite cards. Good call, but there's more tricks than that!

Therapy and Vial are also good. Boy I wish they'd reprint Mercenary Knight. :<

I haven't tried it, but Unearth seems not worth it.

Crib Swap seems pretty bad, even if you can keep replaying it. It's really only for Goyfs, isn't it? In which case I would suggest it as a SB card if anything.

Wings of Velis Vel is probably really awesome with all the first-strikers, but blue mana might be too much to ask for.

[satellites]

thanks for the suggestions...I suppose Unearth would be pretty neat in the deck too, haven't thought of that.


I replaced the Innocent Blood with Cabal Therapy, and actually used it on myself once - so the utility is there, and awesome.

Crib Swap is a pretty neat trick with Haakon, but yeah, sometimes I wish it were a Swords to Plowshares. Usually, though, if I can reuse it, I have something larger than the 1/1.

I also added in Chrome Mox, but Aether Vial seems more appealing than that.

Also, it's a goddamn shame about Mercenary Knight's Oracle text. I suppose Aether Vial will take care of the getting Haakon into play by 3rd turn. It's a damn shame I won't get a fat bastard out of it, though.

Some questions, then:

Does Damnation deserve a maindeck slot? With Haakon, it's really 2BB - destroy all creatures you don't own and return all creatures you own to your hand.

I'll bump up the Black Knights to 4 of-protection from StP is nice, but the Paladin en-Vec, being pro white and black is nice - but is Silver Knight dropping 1 mana to WW and dropping pro black worth it?

Also - does Dark Ritual deserve a spot?

[FakeSpam]

I really don't understand why white is even in this deck. It isn't being used to provide anything, really. I would try this more traditional Suicide-esque shell.

16 swamp
4 wasteland

4 Thoughtsieze
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual

4 Nameless Inversion
4 Stromgald Crusader
4 Knight of Stromgald
4 Dark Confidant

4 Hakkon, Stromgald Scourge
4 Mercenary Knight
2 Undead Gladiator

2 Damnation

---

Now, here's why:

1) The discard package. Very potent and disruptive. Also, you can turn either discard spell on yourself to pitch hakkon.

2) The knights. Black dudes with pro-white are immune to stp, the most commonly played removal spell in the whole format as well as most other black removal. That, and the first strikers go really well with nameless inversion. Taking down really big guys. Not that there is anything stopping you from playing nameless inversion 4 times a turn.

3) Confidant. Not a knight, true. But the best draw black has.

4) Mercenary Knight can be used to pull a Hakkon out of the hand, or just be a huge beatstick.

5) Undead Gladiator is also not a knight. Bummer. Well, it's okay, because he brings himself back. He also acts as a way to get Hakkon out of your hand and as a late-game draw engine.

6) DAMNATION! - I still don't think you can just say damnation. It seems to be one of those things you just have to scream. Anyway, sometimes you have to kill something dead. Sometimes it has pro-white. Sometimes you are just outnumbered. Sometimes it's friggin' Troll Asetic. Whatever. Dead.

[Finn]

I have been here. This deck, in its current form, will not win games. The Haakon trick does not happen often enough. There is no deck manipulation, no search or draw, and no fun to be had with substandard creatures that get cool IFF you can manage to get Haakon in your graveyard.

Drawing two Haakons in your opening seven sucks even more than getting none.

FakeSpam, your design is a step in the wrong direction. Merc Knight and Aether Vial are just about all this deck has going for it. With them gone, Haakon is just REALLY BAD.

Personally, if I were to do this again, I would bite the bullet and explore the 3-color version with Court Hussar. He is also not good enough for Legacy, but maybe together the whole thing can work. Amongst its array of other advantages, Blue has Intuition, which does what you all want Buried Alive to do but doesn't suck. You can go down to 2 Haakons and be consistent at attempting the deck's only real advantage - card advantage via the graveyard.

[FakeSpam]

...
4 Mercenary Knight


Believe it or not, AEther Vial doesn't have to go into every deck. I'm running rit instead. It makes for more busted turn 1 plays.

[nitewolf9]

I've been trying to make this deck work for quite some time now but I gave up on it. My most recent incarnation was this (thoughtseize used to be duress):

4 haakon
4 mercenary knight
4 black knight
4 squee, goblin nabob
3 zombie infestation

4 dark ritual
4 thoughtseize
4 cabal therapy
4 smallpox
3 umezawa's jitte

2 dakmor salvage
4 wasteland
4 polluted delta
2 badlands
10 swamp

board:
4 engineered plague
4 darkblast
4 dystopia
3 extirpate

Squee is good because I noticed that you had trouble trying to recur mercenary knight over and over again and squee does this well. Zombie infestation helps with pitching haakon and also is great with squees. Jitte is awesome because you almost always have a creature to equip and therapy is nuts with the entire deck. Dakmor salvage helps break smallpox synergy and lets you dredge knights/squees into the yard sometimes. The red sources are there on the off chance you want to cast squee as a recurring blocker/therapy food/jitte wearer.

Edit: this deck is called "bring out your dead" and I think I may have posted it somewhere else in another deck thread a while back; it would be nice to make it work because it really is a lot of fun to play, but it's hard to justify playing it over something like ichorid.

[Finn]

Believe it or not, AEther Vial doesn't have to go into every deck. I'm running rit instead. It makes for more busted turn 1 plays.In this deck, the vial lets you play Haakon without using the graveyard. It's very important, and just one more reason that it is a defining card of the format. But my bad on the Merc Knight.

[Jaynel]

Nameless Inversion is RETARDED in this deck. It's so nuts with Hakkon. I'd definitely suggest 4.

[FakeSpam]

In this deck, the vial lets you play Haakon without using the graveyard.

Sure. But you can't play any of the other knights that are already in the graveyard with it. I've got 14 ways to put Hakkon in the bin, all of them coming online before turn 4 when vial would drop him into play. Ideally, going turn 1 rit, merc knight, pitching Hakkon.


I do admit, the blue w/court hussar version seems interesting. And by interesting I mean slow.

[satellites]

I do admit, the blue w/court hussar version seems interesting. And by interesting I mean slow.

So I tried this out, splashing blue for Court Hussar, Careful Study, and Wings of Velis Vel...and it's pretty shitty. I think I'll just keep it B/W, but possibly have more ways to get my dudes in the grave.

[MattH]

Smallpox is very good. The card I was hinting at, however, was Contamination. Have not actually built it but it's soooo sexy on paper.

I also approve of Ritual, and/or maybe Chrome Mox.

[FakeSpam]

Smallpox is very good. The card I was hinting at, however, was Contamination.

I have been trying to put Contamination into a deck for about four years now. I like it.

That definately puts the deck into mono black, though. Not that I have a problem with that, since it's where I think it should be anyway.

[Tacosnape]

Holy crap. I've never even -seen- Contamination before. That's a fantastic idea for this deck.

If this deck catches on, can we call it Knights of Cydonia?

[Iranon]

The engine isn't strong enough to dominate the late game, so I'd like the ability to power out Dark Confidant or Mercenary Knight early on. The disruption suite is a little light, but at least the deck does what it's supposed to do quickly and reliably.

//Mana

11 Swamp
4 Wasteland
1 Uborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual

//Creatures

4 Black Knight
4 Knight of Stromgald
4 Stromgald Crusader
4 Dark Confidant
4 Mercenary Knight
4 Haakon, Stromgald Scourge

//Stuff
4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Nameless Inversion

[Maveric78f]

Last Rites ?
Crib Swap ?

[satellites]

Contamination.

Holy shit that's genius.

I really really want Crib Swap to be in the deck, but ultimately, it's pretty weak. I'm thinking about Smallpox in its place. Maybe. Last Rites seems pretty strong, with a mono-black base and Ritual, a 1st turn Last Rites can be pretty harsh.

re: Knights of Cydonia: it's a good thing I like Muse.

[Cavius The Great]

I used to play Contamination in my old school, Type 2 Buried Alive deck back in the day. It's a really nifty card, in this type of deck it's amazing.

[Media314r8]

With all the enablers like buried alive, Merc Knight, and Smallpox simply to play haakon, why is this deck not simply abandoned for iggy-pop? Seems like if I can play a 3 mana sorcerry on turn one and have acess to 1BB on turn two I should be winning the game, not putting the most fragile permanant in magic into play (probably down about three cards fro d rits/mox/buried alive to boot.)

I can see this deck being viable in T2, ~possibly~ extended... but what does it really have to offer to legacy? ~IF~ you can get haakon in play and ~IF~ you have an nameless inversion in the bin then for 2BB you can kill a goyf a turn and swing for three with your fragile guy... Cute... but not competitive. I like doran more.

[Versus]

It's very hateable, even in Standard as those playing will come to find. I like the synergy between Haakon and N.I., but I think that's where the deck should stop. Just play good cards. If the combo happens, it happens. If not you have plenty of other ways to win and not just a hand full of Knights you wouldn't have bothered playing otherwise.

[Cavius The Great]

With all the enablers like buried alive, Merc Knight, and Smallpox simply to play haakon, why is this deck not simply abandoned for iggy-pop? Seems like if I can play a 3 mana sorcerry on turn one and have acess to 1BB on turn two I should be winning the game, not putting the most fragile permanant in magic into play (probably down about three cards fro d rits/mox/buried alive to boot.)

I can see this deck being viable in T2, ~possibly~ extended... but what does it really have to offer to legacy? ~IF~ you can get haakon in play and ~IF~ you have an nameless inversion in the bin then for 2BB you can kill a goyf a turn and swing for three with your fragile guy... Cute... but not competitive. I like doran more.

Iggy-Pop doesn't have a Contamination lock. :wink:

[Maveric78f]

iggy pop does not have an aggro plan.

Comparing this with iggy pop is as relevant as comparing vial goblins with belcher.

[Finn]

Sure. But you can't play any of the other knights that are already in the graveyard with it. I've got 14 ways to put Hakkon in the bin, all of them coming online before turn 4 when vial would drop him into play. Ideally, going turn 1 rit, merc knight, pitching Hakkon.
These 14 cards include Therapy and Thoughtseize, right? I hope you were joking. He does not have to enter play in a hurry. He is not going to pound the opponent to death alone.


So I tried this out, splashing blue for Court Hussar, Careful Study, and Wings of Velis Vel...and it's pretty shitty. I think I'll just keep it B/W, but possibly have more ways to get my dudes in the grave.Got a list?

[Top Deck]

In this deck, the vial lets you play Haakon without using the graveyard. It's very important, and just one more reason that it is a defining card of the format. But my bad on the Merc Knight.

vial is a good idea for the deck.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

A realy big problem is swording your hakkon! How do you play around? Discard!?

[McDesto]

Just a bit of food for thought. Has anyone tried lions eye diamond along with Dakmor Salvage for more explosive plays?

[FakeSpam]

A realy big problem is swording your hakkon! How do you play around? Discard!?

You just kinda let it happen. You do play four.


These 14 cards include Therapy and Thoughtseize, right? I hope you were joking. He does not have to enter play in a hurry. He is not going to pound the opponent to death alone.

These 14 do include Therapy and Thoughtseize.

I'm interested to hear what your take on this idea was. Do you have a list? I want to know why AEther Vial is so good. Most good knights cost 2. Hakkon Costs 3. You want to use the vial to drop Hakkon, but then it's at 3 and you can't use it to drop any other knights you draw or knights that get killed, because you can't use vial to play them from the bin.

The idea behind the deck I posted was to throw out early discard, and knights for quick beats. Later on, if your opponent recovers, you can get hakkon into play and generate some serious card advantage from there, replaying the majority of your deck over and over. In this scenario, it's not unheard of to see a merc knight or an Undead Gladiator to get rid of Hakkon. And worst case, your opponent's hand is already pretty empty and you can flashback a knight to therapy for Hakkon to play him and then replay your knight. Yeah, Thoughtsieze can be used in a pinch, but 9 times out of 10 I would love to just throw it at my opponent.

LED is a cool suggestion, but it is strictly worse than rit unless you have a Hakkon in the bin/in play.

Other Ideas, like smallpox or pox are pretty darn cool as well. The best one has to be contamination. Then again, contamination was run in pox back in the day. (Nether Spirit.)

[Finn]

I do not have a good list. I still have the BW one I messed with back when Haakon came out. But I do not like it. Lemme try one out right now though.

2 Silver Knight
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Court Hussar
4 Intuition
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Mercenary Knight
3 Haakon, dead guy
2 Black Knight
4 Aether Vial
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
4 Undergound Sea
2 Scrubland
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Island

The deck has a lot of weaknesses. Extirpate would simply end you in a lot of cases. 15 creatures is not all that much for Vial, but once Haakon is in play, it is almost unnecessesary anyway. I don't know. Next to the merfolk deck I just posted, this one looks pathetic. I would like to see Cabal Therapy for nasty Intuition tricks, but the life loss from Haakon could be severe. And its too bad you cant Vial in the Hussar from the gy.

[MattH]

The main reason I haven't actually tried this out is that it would be virtually impossible for me to own 4 Mercenary Knights. :<

[Cavius The Great]

The main reason I haven't actually tried this out is that it would be virtually impossible for me to own 4 Mercenary Knights. :<

I own 4 Cruel Bargain and 4 Brimstone Dragon. You can do it big guy. :wink:

[MattH]

I own 4 Cruel Bargain and 4 Brimstone Dragon. You can do it big guy. :wink:

I'll keep my eye out for any, but I'm not about to drop $50+ (http://findmagiccards.com/Cards/PO/Mercenary_Knight.html) on what is, for now, a casual deck.

[Cavius The Great]

I'll keep my eye out for any, but I'm not about to drop $50+ (http://findmagiccards.com/Cards/PO/Mercenary_Knight.html) on what is, for now, a casual deck.

SCG.com has a slightly played one in stock for $10.

[Cait_Sith]

Card Shark has 4 of them for 10$ each at NM, and one at 6.50$ mint.

Just shop around.

Also, Black Knight is hot, try him.

[Guevera59]

Has anyone thought about Oona's Prowler as a beater and an excellent discard outlet for Haakon??

[Maveric78f]

I'd prefer a first turn discard outlet, like imp. Smallpox is also good in this slot.

[Atwa]

After reading thise post some time ago, I also went shopping around a little.

I found 2 Mercenary Knights at E2.00 each. Too bad they didnt have any more.

[No_Life_No_Future]

There are a few cards that work really well with haakon.

Utility:
Court Hussar: Reccuring Draw Engine. But 2U is unattractive
Crib Swab/Nameless Inversion: Reccuring Creature removal. How cool is that?

Setup:
Burried Alive: nice but only gets creatures. It also lets you search for only one Haakon

Intuition: you can get anything but you have to get 2 coppies of hakkon unless you have a discard outlet.


Everything will take so long to come online. You have to pay UBB3 or BBB3 before you can start abusing your gy. It also gets hit by creature and gy removal...

If only there were a knight like bloodpet. Even a 1cc knight might make a combo possible with ashnods alter or something like that. The problem just comes down to the fact that the knights right now suck. Maybe some more changelings will make haakon more viable.