[Deck] Countersliver: the Next Generation

[Volt]

Note: This is an updated Countersliver list and primer for what I broadly perceive to be the current metagame. As one of the designers of "MeatHooks," I now consider that deck to be generally obsolete (although still quite playable in certain local metagames). You are welcome to continue any relevant discussion in the MeatHooks thread (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5500). This thread is intended specifically for the discussion of my new 4-color (UWgb) Countersliver list. Also note that although I make several references to MeatHooks in this primer, I am not calling this deck MeatHooks. That moniker refers to a fairly specific UWg build. This is just good old "Countersliver," which I imagine will make several readers happy.

Why MeatHooks is Obsolete
My teammates (Team Info Ninjas) and I originally designed MeatHooks for a metagame that was dominated by Goblins. Thresh and Solidarity were tier 1.5 decks at the time. Control decks such as Landstill were rarely played because they rolled over and died to Solidarity. This was a pretty good environment for a UWg Countersliver deck such as MeatHooks to thrive in, even if it never fully caught on. The deck's only true weakness was mass removal, which was scarce. Featuring a great matchup against Goblins, a good matchup against Solidarity, and a 50/50 matchup against Thresh, MeatHooks was a pretty good metagame choice for a while.

Then things changed. Chief among these changes were the printings of Empty the Warrens and Tarmogoyf. With EtW in the format, super-fast combo (i.e. Belcher and TES) started to rise. Predictably, Tarmogoyf made Thresh even stronger, raising it to full-fledged Tier 1 status. These factors combined to push Goblins out of Tier 1, while Solidarity nearly vanished from the metagame. In turn, this paved the way for the resurgence of Landstill and other board control strategies. All of these things were very bad for MeatHooks, which was always one resolved Wrath of God, Damnation, Engineered Explosives, or Pernicious Deed away from losing.

What to do? Clearly, a change is needed in order to keep Countersliver around at least as a viable deck choice, if not Tier 1. In my opinion, the way to the future lies in the past. It is time for the return of Hibernation Sliver. Hibernation Sliver gives us outs against mass removal, and also allows us to trump Tarmogoyf with combat trickery. I considered dropping green in order to stick with a 3-color scheme, but it turns out the deck really, really wants 8 muscle slivers. Without all 8 of them, your creatures end up looking very small compared to a Tarmogoyf. Aether Vials are run to help smooth out colored mana requirements and circumvent enemy countermagic. I realize that the inclusion of Hibernation Sliver and Aether Vial constitutes a reversal of my former positions on those cards. Hey, things change. Here is the decklist that I am currently recommending:

Current Deck List
// Mana
4 AEther Vial
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Island

// Creatures
4 Crystalline Sliver
3 Hibernation Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
3 Winged Sliver

// Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Duress
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder

// Suggested Sideboard
4 Engineered Plague
4 Pithing Needle
4 Planar Void
3 Harmonic Sliver

Card Choices
AEther Vial: Allows you to work around countermagic and other annoyances such as Counterbalance, Meddling Mage, Chalice of the Void, Standstill, and Trinisphere. Also allows you to play nasty combat tricks and just plain mess with your opponent's head.

Crystalline Sliver: A solid "2/2 for two" sliver that happens to nerf all targeted removal and disruption aimed at your guys. As the first sliver everyone thinks of when building a Legacy sliver deck, the choice as 4-of shouldn't be too surprising.

Hibernation Sliver: Offers additional resistance to spot removal, as well as providing an out against mass removal spells. Also, the ability to bounce slivers back to your hand after assigning combat damage is invaluable in a Tarmogoyf-dominated format.

Muscle Sliver/Sinew Sliver: This is where you get to really cheat in terms of returns for your mana investment (see the section above). It is simply unfair that you can have eight of these bad boys in your deck.

Winged Sliver: Not a 4-of, because the ability doesn’t stack, and because they are rather weak without the company of their sliver friends. No less than a 3-of because it is often the crucial last piece you need before swinging for the win. Particularly important against Goblins and Thresh.

Swords to Plowshares: Duh.

Thoughtseize: Amazingly versatile. Basically a proactive counterspell.

Force of Will: Duh.

Brainstorm: The best cantrip ever.

Ponder: The next best cantrip ever. An excellent digger for that land, sliver, or counterspell that you need.

Sideboard Options
Your sideboard should be tailored to your metagame. Below are some sensible choices.

Harmonic Sliver: Kills AEther Vial, Chalice of The Void, Worship, Solitary Confinement, Umezawa's Jitte, Sword of Fire and Ice, Survival of the Fittest, Defense Grid, Leyline of the Void, etc. And it's a sliver!

Gaddock Teeg: Under evaluation. Seems like it should be good against Tendrils combo and Landstill. The only drawback is that he nerfs your own Force of Wills.

Meddling Mage: Good against most combo decks as well as certain control decks.

Plated Sliver: A superb Lackey-stopper. Also quite good against Pyroclasm, Massacre, and similar effects.

Talon Sliver: Not a bad answer for Tarmogoyf. Vialing in a Talon Sliver and stack-blocking a 'goyf with multiple first-striking slivers is a very satisfying and effective play.

Stifle: Stops Wastelands, fetchlands, goblin triggers, storm triggers (i.e. Tendrils of Agony, Empty the Warrens), Pernicious Deed, Engineered Explosives, etc. Superb against Goblins and TES/Iggy, and randomly useful against many other decks.

Engineered Explosives: A solid removal spell that you will usually want to play with 0 or 1 charge counters. Very useful for destroying Chalices, AEther Vials, and Nimble Mongooses, among other things.

Pithing Needle: Shuts down Pernicious Deed, Engineered Explosives, Survival of the Fittest, AEther Vial, Wasteland, Rishadan Port, Arcbound Ravager, Atog, manlands, equipment, etc. Very versatile against a wide variety of decks.

Tormod's Crypt: Graveyard hate that punishes Iggy, Reanimator, Ichorid, and various other decks that rely heavily on graveyard recursion. Not as good against Thresh as it used to be, thanks to Tarmogoyf.

Jotun Grunt: Graveyard hate in the form of a 4/4 beater. Another solid answer to Tarmogoyf.

Morningtide: Not as janky as you might think. Empties both graveyards and makes all goyfs and Thresh creatures small again.

Planar Void: Very effective graveyard hate if played early. Keeps Tarmogoyf and all Thresh creatures small.

Leyline of the Void: Hoses your opponent's graveyard strategies.

Chill/Hydroblast/Blue Elemental Blast: Terrific against red decks.

Worship: Crystalline Sliver + Worship is a classic combo that can sometimes turn a losing situation into a winning one. Not as reliable a lock as it used to be, but still not bad.

Armageddon: A solid choice against Solidarity, Landstill, Wombat, Rifter, and control decks in general. A resolved Armageddon with 2-4 untargetable slivers in play is usually gg.

Spell Snare: A solid counterspell in today's metagame. It counters Tarmogoyf.

Engineered Plague: A very effective hoser against Goblins and Elves!

Perish: Die, Tarmogoyfs, die! Die Nimble Mongeese, die! Die Elves, die!

Cards Not Included
Counterspell: There is room for disagreement on this one. Personally, I find it too slow and clunky for this deck's strategy.

Daze: A standard inclusion in MeatHooks, but has been superseded by Thoughtseize in the new list.

Gemhide Sliver: At 2cc it's simply too slow. Pretty rarely will you feel comfortable tapping out on turn 2 for a glorified Bird of Paradise, especially since it won't even have the protection of Crystalline yet.

Sidewinder Sliver: Solid, but generally inferior to Plated Sliver.

Virulent Sliver: Poison counters? Sha, right.

Eladamri's Call: Has made its way in and out of the deck on numerous occasions. It offers some utility at the cost of a bit of tempo. Not terrible as a 1-of in the deck, but the creatures are redundant enough that tutor effects don't seem to be needed.

Living Wish: Offers some extra versatility, particularly if you stock your sideboard with 'toolbox' creatures and utility lands. Ultimately, it doesn't make the cut because of the sorcery speed and the relative rarity that its effect is needed.

Survival of the Fittest: Has been tried and abandoned. It simply doesn't fit well into a CounterSliver shell. It is much better suited to an aggro-sliver approach.

Accumulated Knowledge: Too inconsistent. The first AK is just a bad cantrip. The first two AKs combined are basically equivalent to an Inspiration (think about it; you’ve now spent 4 mana for a net card advantage of 1). AK doesn’t truly get good until the third one. Unfortunately, drawing 3 AKs in one game is the exception rather than the rule.

Fact or Fiction: Too slow, plain and simple. If and when you get to four mana, you rarely want to keep it open so you can FoF at the end of your opponent’s turn. More than likely, you will want to spend that mana casting slivers or countering something. Card advantage is great, but Fact or Fiction simply doesn’t fit the tempo of the deck.

Matchups
Briefly, here is what I am comfortable saying... The Goblins matchup is roughly 50/50. The Thresh matchup is 50/50 to somewhat favorable, depending on the build of Thresh. More to come later...

[Solpugid]

Is it really necessary to run thoughtseize maindeck instead of duress or daze? The life loss actually matters here, as it limits (to a small degree, but still to a degree) the shenangigans you can pull with hibernation sliver. This is especially true when combined with fetchlands, and significantly reduces your aggro matchups (which, let's be honest, are still in the format).

I haven't tested this deck, so I suppose I should trust your conclusions, but I would worry taking this into an unknown meta because of the life loss problems mentioned above.

[Volt]

Is it really necessary to run thoughtseize maindeck instead of duress or daze? The life loss actually matters here, as it limits (to a small degree, but still to a degree) the shenanigans you can pull with hibernation sliver.

Thoughtseize also limits to a degree the need to pull shenanigans with Hibernation Sliver. It's worth it.

As I mentioned in the MeatHooks thread, I've done a pretty good amount of playtesting against Red Thresh, which should be the perfect "fire test," so to speak. The results have been pretty good, better than 50/50 in Countersliver's favor. Yes, you almost always get behind in life, sometimes by 10 points or more, but you usually can stabilize and then win the game. Just try to stay above 6 life, so you don't die to "lightning bolt, lightning bolt."

That said, this deck does require more finesse than MeatHooks. It also requires guts. I was tempted to name this thread "Suicide Countersliver," because that's often what it feels like.

[Nydaeli]

Given all the life loss you're incurring, does Darkheart Sliver belong somewhere in the 75? I've always liked that card, and this version of the deck seems perfect for it.

[TheCramp]

Chalice @ 2 or CB w/ top to maintain a two drop on the top seems like GG if you don't have vial. I realize that you have outs here, but what has your testing been like against decks that try to pull this kind of lock.

Have you tested against stax?

[diffy]

As this deck really isn't that far appart from the Counterslivers a friend of mine plays since ages, so I'll answer here.



Chalice @ 2 or CB w/ top to maintain a two drop on the top seems like GG if you don't have vial. I realize that you have outs here, but what has your testing been like against decks that try to pull this kind of lock.


In our testing against Ugw Balanced Gro, getting down a counterbalance was quite hard because the Meathooks player plays as much disruption as you do (if you run Daze over Thoughtseize) and you want to play the Balance early so that Daze becomes relevant.
On the other side, the Balance player will not always have the 2nd turn Balance with Top backup so that you should already have some guys on the table (alongside hopefully a Winged Sliver) so that you can just hope to race your opponent who can't efficiently play spells because he has to keep mana open for Top/Brainstorm[-> Balance].



Have you tested against stax?


Game one you probably loose except for if you have a first turn Vial with a fast clock and Force of Will backup (for their Tabernacle->Geddon or Ghostly Prisons). It's hard but nowhere near unwinable especially if you get 2+ Muscle/Sinew Slivers.
Postpoard the matchup gets ridiculous... just hold onto a few lands until you draw Harmonic Sliver, kil of his Chalice@2 and get ridiculous.

Notice that all the testing was done pre-Lorwyn with Dazes in the slots of Thoughtseize, but still the general feel of the Matchups shouldn't change that much.

4c Counterslivers are broken... they even manage to go at least 50/50 with my UWb Landstill because of the awesomness of Hibernation Sliver.

[godryk]

@Volt; I'm glad to see you interested in counterslivers again after the "we-can-no-longer-play-slivers" era, 'Goyf is out there? well, let's find ways of dealing with it. :wink:

I think I can borrow a pair of Underground Seas, but it'll be harder to me to get a Thoughtseize playset, anyway, I can't wait to test this out.

[Nihil Credo]

I'd say that with EE, Deed, CounterTop, and Wasteland all seeing a lot of play and posing such a threat to this deck (the first three to the threats, the latter to the manabase), then Pithing Needle should be an automatic 4-of in the sideboard in almost any metagame, and deserves serious consideration for a couple of maindeck slots.

[Curby]

The sideboard seems like a really crowded place. The following all seem like cards I want to add, though some of these are tailored towards my local meta:

Darkheart or Essence Sliver
Harmonic Sliver or Krosan Grip (Damn Humility)
Stifle and/or Pithing Needle
Meddling Mage
Daze
Spell Snare
Leyline of the Void or Planar Void (Ichorid/Breakfast decks are getting more popular locally)
Engineered Plague
Aegis of Honor on magic-league? (How do we kill burn when we're busy killing ourselves? Life Slivers don't help against Sulfuric Vortex)

Why the 4 Duress (they're not discussed under the Sideboard Options section)? Do you use them instead of Thoughtseize in certain matches, or how/when would you side them in alongside Thoughtseize? I know you say your side is fluid, but it seems odd to include a 4-of that does what a maindeck card does already.

I'm also considering the probably-dumb move of changing the basics to an extra Scrubland and Tropical Island, to give an extra source of our splash colors. Not many people playing Wastes, etc. around here.

[kirdape3]

I think that once Ponder leaves for a combination of Daze and Stifle (either 1 and 3 or 3 and 1, not sure - you want exactly one of the other to get people to play around it), this deck will be very good. It still needs more Tarmogoyf, but it looks pretty good so far.

[Volt]

I think that once Ponder leaves for a combination of Daze and Stifle (either 1 and 3 or 3 and 1, not sure - you want exactly one of the other to get people to play around it), this deck will be very good. It still needs more Tarmogoyf, but it looks pretty good so far.

If I were going to cut the Ponders, the first 2 cards I would want to put into those slots would be land #19 and Hibernation Sliver #4. The other two slots could be filled with Pithing Needles, although it would bother me to have only 19 blue spells in the deck.

[xsockmonkeyx]

THis deck is good. Hibernation Sliver is really strong in the format right now.

[Jak]

What are the MUs? Like Thresh and the GY combos.

[Curby]

Are individual match reports considered spammy?

Casual MWS game against a Loam deck, won by Deathhooks (tee hee) in straight games. My main is the same as Volt's; my side is Engineered Plague, Planar Void, Stifle, and 3 Harmonic Sliver.

Game 1, he gets going pretty well. The green Exploration Legend, a Zuran Orb, 2x Exploration, and a Loam. My early Thoughtseize chose Seismic Assault over the Legend and a Naturalize, even though I had a Vial on the board. When he hit my Vial, I Brainstormed into a second and let it resolve. The hive ran over his singleton Maze of Ith and 6 life per turn.

Then, I sided like an idiot after seeing Assault and Maze. -4 Crystalline, -1 Ponder, -2 StP, +3 Harmonic, +4 Planar Void. Should have sided out all Winged and StP instead.

Game 2: Another Zuran and 2 Mazes hit play early, and manage to slow my 2x Winged + Sinew hivelet. I Seize two Crucibles and bait out a Naturalize with my Vial before dropping Planar Void. :cool: Horn of Greed is played and we both accelerate. My attack of +3/+3 Flying, Hibernating Slivers brings him to 2, and he concedes when he draws no answers, though he has 20 life worth of land on the board for Zuran.

It was a little odd in that I never saw a Wasteland, manland, or Glacial Chasm, and 4 Seismic Assault seems too frail of a win condition. So this probably wasn't a good test, but at this point any testing is good testing for me. :tongue:

[kicks_422]

You never side out Crystallines. EVER.

Oh, and Smothers are some good in the SB. I believe Volt mentioned it before as another way to up Thresh MU's and the aggro MU in general... Can't remember if it was at the MeatHooks thread or via PM. With the 4c version rolling, Smothers are pretty golden.

[Curby]

Oh, and Smothers are some good in the SB. I believe Volt mentioned it before as another way to up Thresh MU's and the aggro MU in general... Can't remember if it was at the MeatHooks thread or via PM. With the 4c version rolling, Smothers are pretty golden.

Yeah, Smother is great, but I can't find room for it in my side. Relying on Thoughtseize for proactive removal and StP for reactive removal will hopefully be enough for me.

[Pinder]

You never side out Crystallines. EVER.


Except against nearly all forms of combo, and Burn. Yeah, burn. Every burn directed at your dudes is burn not directed at you. And eventually your dudes hit 4 toughness (especially with Plated), so they have to use two cards to remove them most of the time. It's actually more savage card advantage without Crystalline in this case, because removal not directed at them is removal that is directed at you. A good Burn player will go for the dome anyway, but a lot of the time you see people playing sloppy and aiming for your dudes.

[Tacosnape]

This is indisputably the best Slivers list I have ever seen. I've been a huge fan of Hibernation Sliver for a longass time, and this list plays only the cream of the crop in Sliverdom.

STP and Thoughtseize are solid choices, as this gives you 8 Tarmogoyf outs. Force and Thoughtseize give you 8 unilateral ways to deal with artifacts, enchantments, and random potential problems.

The only thing I disagree with is the inclusion of basic lands. When you consider that the deck runs both Aether Vial main and Stifle boarded, these seem hardly necessary. I think I would rather have consistent mana hands.

[Volt]

This is indisputably the best Slivers list I have ever seen. I've been a huge fan of Hibernation Sliver for a longass time, and this list plays only the cream of the crop in Sliverdom.

STP and Thoughtseize are solid choices, as this gives you 8 Tarmogoyf outs. Force and Thoughtseize give you 8 unilateral ways to deal with artifacts, enchantments, and random potential problems.

The only thing I disagree with is the inclusion of basic lands. When you consider that the deck runs both Aether Vial main and Stifle boarded, these seem hardly necessary. I think I would rather have consistent mana hands.

The basic plains can probably be replaced by a blue dual. I think the basic island is needed, though. There are times when you want to make absolutely sure that first land sticks. Also, it is nice to have a basic or 2 you can fetch when you're up against Price of Progress.

Hibernation Sliver is amazing right now. I think it's probably correct to drop a Ponder in favor of the 4th Hibernation Sliver.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Hibernation Sliver is amazing right now. I think it's probably correct to drop a Ponder in favor of the 4th Hibernation Sliver.

This sounds reasonable to me. The deck needs 1-2 more slivers anyway IMO.

The Plains could probably go too.



4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Island

4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Hibernation Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
3 Winged Sliver

4 AEther Vial

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm

3 Ponder/Sifle/Daze/Needle/etc.

[Maveric78f]

What about mirror entity as all your sliver are basically 1/1 or 2/2 ?
It looks better than talon sliver against tarmogoyf. And against thresh it's always better to play 3CC cards than 2CC. I would even run it MD instead of some winged copies.

I would play stifle MD over STP or Thoughtseize (or a redistribution 3/3/3/3 with ponder, thoughtseize and STP), control decks are more and more present in the metagame and you need a strong main deck defense against EE and deed I think.

Ps : I'm not completely sure about the layers for mirror entity but I think that the muscle and sinew bonuses are (6d) in addition to the mirror effect (6b) regardless to the timestamp.

[kicks_422]

Except against nearly all forms of combo, and Burn. Yeah, burn. Every burn directed at your dudes is burn not directed at you. And eventually your dudes hit 4 toughness (especially with Plated), so they have to use two cards to remove them most of the time. It's actually more savage card advantage without Crystalline in this case, because removal not directed at them is removal that is directed at you. A good Burn player will go for the dome anyway, but a lot of the time you see people playing sloppy and aiming for your dudes.

Well, against combo, what I do take out are a combination of Winged Slivers and StP's, depending if Xantids/Confidants are present, so I don't think there's a need to take out Crystallines (unless your packing like 10 anti-combo cards in the SB).

Against Burn, I admit that I've never thought of siding out Crystallines... I'm assuming for Mages? I like the idea of StP'ing one of your dudes to gain life though... Looks like I have something to think about through Accounting class.

[godryk]

Ps : I'm not completely sure about the layers for mirror entity but I think that the muscle and sinew bonuses are (6d) in addition to the mirror effect (6b) regardless to the timestamp.

I've already asked myslef this and here (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7197) you got the answer. Mirror Entity was already discused in the "old" Meathooks thread. I like it to because I think its a nice topdeck, maybe a 2-of. Anyway I think it belongs to the former UWg list.

[Volt]

Well, against combo, what I do take out are a combination of Winged Slivers and StP's, depending if Xantids/Confidants are present, so I don't think there's a need to take out Crystallines (unless your packing like 10 anti-combo cards in the SB).

Against combo decks that pack Empty the Warrens or Ichorid, you should always leave in all of your Winged Slivers. I have won a number of games by flying over goblin/zombie tokens. Crystalline Slivers may safely be sided out, since those decks run absolutely no targeted removal.


Regarding Mirror Entity... Yeah, that has been brought up a few times now, the first time being by one of my teammates right after Mirror Entity was spoiled. It seems like a nifty idea, but I don't know that I'd be willing to cut anything to fit it in. It's very mana-intensive, and it's pretty awful by itself. And it can be Needled.

[Kronicler]

Monkey, I really like that new list, but what do you think the SB would be? It of course depends on our matchups, but I think that 4 Needle, 3 Harmonic is a given (though we all know that harmonic and vial don't play well together). Also something to note is that Harmonic + Hibernation (+ vial) = GG to any artifact based deck. lol @ affinity if we get that combo going. But what else for the SB? Perhaps 4 Duress for combo, 4 Plague for gobos if we need it.

Oh btw, this just made my quest to pimp out slivers soooo much harder. Foil thoughtseize FTL. And now I only get to use 2 of my mint FBB trops!

Kronicler

[Volt]

Yeah, Hibernation Sliver definitely makes Harmonic Sliver better. Your opponent doesn't have any artifacts/enchantments left, and you don't want to blow up your own Vial when you cast your next sliver? No problem. Just buy Harmonic back to your hand!

Last Friday night, I was playing my new list at the Batcave (they allow new cards to be played at unsanctioned tournaments as soon as they come out). I was playing some guy with a janky version of Enchantress. During the first few turns, I Forced a couple of his spells and Swordsed an Enchantress to keep him from going nuts. I had Hibernation Sliver + Muscle Sliver in play, and a Harmonic Sliver in my hand. My opponent had a Mesa Enchantress in play as his only permanent. He then played Rancor on the enchantress, drew a card, played some creature that says "If there are no enchantments in play, sacrifice this creature," drew a card, played Rancor on that creature, then passed the turn. I played Harmonic Sliver, killing a Rancor. Then I returned Muscle Sliver to my hand and played it again, killing his other Rancor, which made that creature go to the graveyard. My opponent sighed and scooped. Good times.

A brief rundown of my matches from last Friday night:

In the first round, I beat Dragon Stompy 2-0, thanks primarily to Hibernation tricks. In the second round, I beat Enchantress 2-0 (see above). In the third and final round, I played against MWC. We split the first 2 games, then decided to draw. That was an interesting match, actually. I scooped in game 1 when he resolved Humility. In game 2, I beat him down to 2 life, but he stabilized and once again resolved a Humility. I hung in there because, after all, he was at 2 life. The game went on for a loooong time after that, as I was having a hard time finding slivers. My opponent played out a couple of Eternal Dragons, which I swordsed. Then, he cycled Decree of Justice on successive turns to generate 9 soldier tokens. He beat me down to 6 life, and was one turn away from killing me, when I topdecked... Engineered Plague! From there, I was able to draw into some slivers and dink him down for those last few points of life.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Monkey, I really like that new list, but what do you think the SB would be? It of course depends on our matchups, but I think that 4 Needle, 3 Harmonic is a given (though we all know that harmonic and vial don't play well together). Also something to note is that Harmonic + Hibernation (+ vial) = GG to any artifact based deck. lol @ affinity if we get that combo going. But what else for the SB? Perhaps 4 Duress for combo, 4 Plague for gobos if we need it.

I think we need some kind of non-creature enchantment removal for Humility.

[Tacosnape]

I think we need some kind of non-creature enchantment removal for Humility.

You have eight of them. Thoughtseize and Force of Will.

[Pinder]

I think we need some kind of non-creature enchantment removal for Humility.

How often does Humility come up for you, honestly? I mean, it's as easy as sticking a few Grips in the board, I suppose, but does it really come up that often?

Also, as has been mentioned, Hibernation+Harmonic = awesomesauce. I can't tell you how many times I've wished I could topdeck one more sliver to get rid of something that was bugging me.

[Curby]

If I don't have my set of Thoughtseize yet, what should I run instead? Is Duress sufficient as a temporary replacement, or should I revert to a more UWg-ish build and use Stifles, Snares, Dazes, or add the 4th Ponder back in? (I currently have 1 Thoughtseize and it might be a while before I find 2 through 4.)

[Jak]

Duress is fine, but the ability to pick off goyfs is too good, so when you have the chance, pick up a set of Seizes.

[xsockmonkeyx]

You have eight of them. Thoughtseize and Force of Will.

If you have to spend your disruption early or they topdeck Humility you might be in trouble. Id still like a couple Grips available just in case.

[Phantom]

I am frankly blown away by the quality of the new list. Hibernation looks amazing (I think I would cut a Winged for the fourth, not a Ponder) and appears to give the deck some good game against decks like Thresh and Landstill.

My only comment would be that I really do think that Krosan Grip is the superior choice for the board. Harmonic Sliver can occasionally win you games against artifact heavy decks, but it does do annoying things like screw up your Vial counters and blow your own Vial up. It is a sliver, but hardly a force. Even with a Muscle out, it's a 2/2 for 3. Plus, this deck isn't like Goblins; you have just as many ways to find non Slivers as Slivers. Grip costs the same, is ALWAYS uncounterable (and can't be responded to at all, which is nice vs. Jitte), never hurts your artifacts, and hits crap like Humility.

[Curby]

If you have to spend your disruption early or they topdeck Humility you might be in trouble. Id still like a couple Grips available just in case.

Actually, it seems that a good Wombat player always leads Humility with Abeyance when playing against blue, and we only have 4 FoW so it's not like we can counter everything.

The more relevant question seems to be how much MWC/Wombat do you see? Our sideboard is already filled with cards that hose different strategies and multiple cards each. Dedicating precious space to kill a single card in a somewhat uncommon deck seems odd (sure, Grip can kill many targets but in almost every other case Harmonic's simply better). However, if everyone in your local meta plays Humility, you've certainly got a point.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Humility is also played in Landstill sometimes. But point taken.

[Pinder]

If you have to spend your disruption early or they topdeck Humility you might be in trouble. Id still like a couple Grips available just in case.

Then stick a couple of Grips in the board.

Speaking of the board, what do people think? I personally don't really think the E.Plagues are necessary. Off the top of my head, something like this:

4 Pithing Needle
4 Meddling Mage (Gaddock Teeg? Pikula would be easier to cast, I suppose)
3 Harmonic Sliver
2 Krosan Grip
2 Something? Maybe more Grips? I dunno.

Thoughts? Also, what about Leyline? I mean, we can actually cast it now, but if we have to, it will by and large be too slow, methinks.

[Jak]

I think Stifle should be in the board as a 4 of or tryed to be squeezed in the MD. I would however, play Daze MD before Stifle. Any chance those could go in? They have such good synergy with Vial and Seize. Proactive and reactive disruption is really good.

[Curby]

3 Harmonic Sliver
2 Krosan Grip
2 Something? Maybe more Grips? I dunno.



The mere notion of dedicating half of our sideboard to disenchant effects makes me wonder if it's worth maindecking a few to improve game 1. Taken another way, if our meta doesn't have enough decks with enough gamebreaking enchantments and artifacts that we need maindeck disenchants, then do we really need 5-7 slots of them in the side? Also, the idea behind cards like Mage and Needle are to protect against some of the threats that we would otherwise have to disenchant. If we can chant Humility, we've some proactive protection against it.

@Leyline of the Void: I've been debating that and Planar Void. Leyline is almost "good game" against Ichorid, which a lot of people here run, but I've heard that it's less good against Breakfast. OTOH Planar Void keeps Goyf small and is easy to cast. And I like how Planar Void protects against Extirpate. :tongue:

[Volt]

Personally, I'm just not going to worry about Humility, even though I happened to run into to it at my last tournament. Also, I really think Harmonic Sliver is the way to go (as opposed to Krosan Grip). Harmonic is even better in this deck than it was in MeatHooks.

Regarding fitting Daze into the maindeck... Yeah, it's doable. Like Maveric78f suggested earlier in this thread, you could run a 3/3/3/3 configuration with StP/Seize/Ponder/Daze or something like that. Maybe just cut a 'seize and Ponder for 2 Dazes? I dunno.

[kicks_422]

4 Pithing Needle
4 Meddling Mage (Gaddock Teeg? Pikula would be easier to cast, I suppose)
3 Harmonic Sliver
2 Krosan Grip
2 Something? Maybe more Grips? I dunno.


Meta preparations aside, I think I'll go -1 Needle, +3 Smother. Extra removal is always good.

Looks like I was wrong about Crystalline Sliver. I'll stop idolizing it now, I promise.

EDIT: I just noticed that the SB I proposed has no graveyard hate. I wonder if that would be fine?

EDIT2: I also just noticed, the only things different from the list I was testing since before this thread started to the list on the OP is -1 Vial, -1 Scrubland, +1 Swamp, +1 Hibernation Sliver. Heh, it looks like I was in the right direction.

[Pinder]

Looks like I was wrong about Crystalline Sliver. I'll stop idolizing it now, I promise.

Eh, you're right about how awesome it was, you were just wrong about when to side it out.

[Volt]

Meta preparations aside, I think I'll go -1 Needle, +3 Smother. Extra removal is always good.

Smother is nice secondary removal, but I generally want more out of my sideboard cards than just extra spot removal. Are the Smothers primarily for Tarmogoyf? If so, I would really recommend Perish. I keep mentioning that card, but it doesn't seem to be getting any love.

[Curby]

With Goblins, Elves, and Slivers all having upwards of 8 +1/+1 guys now, I'm not sure if E. Plague is that great anymore. It will slow them down, and judicious use of point removal might keep them from recovering, but that's a lot of "if"s. However, it can also be used as a Meddling Mage on Bob and other utility creatures. On the other hand, Perish will also screw RG Dryad Sligh, Gx aggro, BGx Rock, etc. Like Leyline/Planar Void, I'm not sure which to run.

[kicks_422]

Smother is nice secondary removal, but I generally want more out of my sideboard cards than just extra spot removal. Are the Smothers primarily for Tarmogoyf? If so, I would really recommend Perish. I keep mentioning that card, but it doesn't seem to be getting any love.

Not only, though that's a huge upside to it. The Smothers out of the board are really for those games where you just get overwhelmed by creatures that drawing a Winged Sliver is your only way to win. Extra removal helps you squeeze in some damage early and just chip away. Also, with Ponder and Brainstorm, you get to dig for these removal spells quite quickly, giving it a Sligh feel (drop Slivers, counter their creatures, StP/Smother anything that sticks, swing FtW).

I've found it useful against Thresh, Dreadnought, Breakfast, Elves, and other jank aggro, among other things... Though I have to say that Perish would be better against Thresh and Elves. I'll have to test that too.

[kirdape3]

Maybe it's just me being strange, but I have a fundamental problem with Ponder in this sort of deck. Cantrips (with the notable exception of Brainstorm, which literally has 'Draw 3 cards' on it) have notable uses, but they're really only effective in a deck that can absorb the tempo loss (either by making a Quirion Dryad/Tarmogoyf bigger or just ending up in the yard so you can make a team of Mongeese huge). This deck will just... draw more Slivers, which you'll do anyways without having to spend slots on Ponder.

With those slots freed up, you can do a lot of things, including Daze (wtf not in the deck?), Stifle, or all sorts of nasty things. And of course, moar Sliverz plz.

[Volt]

Maybe it's just me being strange, but I have a fundamental problem with Ponder in this sort of deck. Cantrips (with the notable exception of Brainstorm, which literally has 'Draw 3 cards' on it) have notable uses, but they're really only effective in a deck that can absorb the tempo loss (either by making a Quirion Dryad/Tarmogoyf bigger or just ending up in the yard so you can make a team of Mongeese huge). This deck will just... draw more Slivers, which you'll do anyways without having to spend slots on Ponder.

With those slots freed up, you can do a lot of things, including Daze (wtf not in the deck?), Stifle, or all sorts of nasty things. And of course, moar Sliverz plz.

I don't want to start another big debate about the whole "tempo loss" thing, but playing Ponder does not always equate to "tempo loss." Often, it equates to "tempo gain." When you only have 1 land, and Ponder finds you land #2, are you losing tempo? No. When you have 4 lands, and Ponder finds you that Winged Sliver you need, are you losing tempo? No. When you have one mana open and an untapped Aether Vial for 2, and Ponder finds you that Muscle Sliver that allows you to swing for lethal damage, are you losing tempo? No. When your hive is being impeded by a 5/6 Tarmogoyf or 6/6 Mystic Enforcer, and Ponder finds you a Swords, are you losing tempo? No. I could go on and on. And you could cite some perfectly valid counter-examples, and you would be right. I'm just saying that the whole concept of "tempo" is often over-simplified, and that cantrips not named Brainstorm get kind of an unfair rep for being tempo-killers.

That said, we've already pretty much conceded that one Ponder should be cut to make room for Hibernation Sliver #4. And as I've mentioned before, if we're going to cut all of the Ponders, we really need to fill one of those slots with land #19. That only leaves 2 slots left over for whatever. That's not much.

[Happy Gilmore]

Maybe it's just me being strange, but I have a fundamental problem with Ponder in this sort of deck. Cantrips (with the notable exception of Brainstorm, which literally has 'Draw 3 cards' on it) have notable uses, but they're really only effective in a deck that can absorb the tempo loss (either by making a Quirion Dryad/Tarmogoyf bigger or just ending up in the yard so you can make a team of Mongeese huge). This deck will just... draw more Slivers, which you'll do anyways without having to spend slots on Ponder.

With those slots freed up, you can do a lot of things, including Daze (wtf not in the deck?), Stifle, or all sorts of nasty things. And of course, moar Sliverz plz.

If your trying to find countermagic most of the time than cutting Ponder for Daze seems logical. You will not however, find the correct sliver when you want it without some search.

[lukatron2]

Why is there a new thread for this? Its practically the same deck give or take a couple of cards and the SB is switched around...

[Volt]

Why is there a new thread for this? Its practically the same deck give or take a couple of cards and the SB is switched around...

It was time to leave the MeatHooks moniker behind, especially seeing as how we consistenly resisted adding black to the deck for 2 years. Also, it's nice to simply have a new start. Does it really matter? Just go with it.

[Curby]

Wow, looks like landstill still sucks. I played against a UBg variant and lost in straight games.

First game I stupidly led with a Sinew instead of Winged after knowing he had an Edict. His Crucible/Waste lock left me with a basic Plains and Island and dead Thoughtseize in hand. Out of the blue came a Tombstalker, which seems to work surprisingly well in the deck (doesn't die to EE or Deed, gets cast for mostly free with the cantrips, countermagic, fetchlands, etc.). I get a Vial online just in time to do Hibernation tricks, but he gets Explosives through (dead 'seize, no FoW) and that pretty much seals it.

+4 Stifle, +3 Harmonic Sliver, -2 Winged, -2 Hibernation, -2 StP, -1 Ponder (what should I have done? Maybe sided out crystallines due to lack of targeted removal, or sent in Planar Void to kill his recursion and slow his Tombstalkers.)

Second game perhaps I should have mulled, but I had FoW, 2x Brainstorm, Sinew, Tundra, and two Fetches. Against Landstill you need explosive speed off the top, and that just wasn't there. Duressing a Brainstorm left me a bit screwed when I started drawing way too much land. I sided out StP figuring he couldn't get Tombstalkers again, but guess what? He plays EOT Fact or Fiction to pull Deed into his hand and drop 4 useless cards into his yard, then uses them to "Thresh" out his second 'stalker for BB mana. Deed and Standstill come out the same turn, but he'll win the damage race with his stupid flying goyfs even if my Stifle resolves on his Deed so I call it a day. I know I still make plenty of play mistakes, but I think this would be hard even in the hands of a good pilot. :rolleyes:

Poor little hive.

[Volt]

First of all, almost no conclusions can be drawn about a matchup after only 2 games. Second, I think Pithing Needle is probably the best sideboard option against Landstill.

I'm finally going to have the opportunity to do some playtesting against Landstill tomorrow. I'll let you all know how it goes.

[Curby]

First of all, almost no conclusions can be drawn about a matchup after only 2 games. Second, I think Pithing Needle is probably the best sideboard option against Landstill.

I'm finally going to have the opportunity to do some playtesting against Landstill tomorrow. I'll let you all know how it goes.

Yeah, I know 2 games isn't even near statistically significant. I ended with a prediction more than a statement of fact. I hope you do better! =)

Re: Pithing Needle, the question is whether to run it over Stifle though. There's not much Landstill where I'm at, so I hope my side is reasonably built for what I should expect.

Edit: For those suggesting Smother, how about Vindicate? For an extra W we can blow up bigger creatures and other nasty things like EE, Deed, Humility, etc.

[Pinder]

Edit: For those suggesting Smother, how about Vindicate? For an extra W we can blow up bigger creatures and other nasty things like EE, Deed, Humility, etc.

Although I'll give you the fact that Vindicate is probably a more versatile answer to Humility than Grip is (and is actually more on color), but what makes you think that you'll ever be able to Vindicate EE or Deed without them just popping it in response? I suppose that if you're lucky and they tap out for it on their turn and you just happen to have a Vindicate in your hand, but a lot of the time they'll either already have the mana open, or they'll save it until they can play and pop it in the same turn.

[Cavius The Great]

Smother is nice secondary removal, but I generally want more out of my sideboard cards than just extra spot removal. Are the Smothers primarily for Tarmogoyf? If so, I would really recommend Perish. I keep mentioning that card, but it doesn't seem to be getting any love.

Dystopia is just hands down, better than Perish. I also think cards like Diabolic Edict need a little more love as well.

[godryk]

Dystopia afects white and green permanents of both players... I think it can hurt us more.

Perish is decent, but I think it depends on your metagame, if you face a lot od green swarms then perish s better, if not, I think Smother or Diabolic Edict as Stp best friends do it much better.

[BeeblesofLife]

The problem with smother is that it kills low casting cost critters. Yes, its kills goyf and it targets which gives it choice where as edict gives the opponents choice in multiple creatures situations. The pros of both are that they both are instants. One targets the other does not. Seeing as how most of the format is under 3cc I do believe smother is a better choice.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Dystopia is just hands down, better than Perish.

It requires BB and totally screws you over. I dont thing you thought this out before you posted it.

[Pinder]

I don't thing you though this out before you posted it.

You realize that Cavius posted that, right? That's what he does (or rather, doesn't).

Either way, white is your secondary main color. As for your slivers, almost half of them are white, and the most important ones (Crystalline and Sinew) are both white. Not only that, but you throw green into the mix and over half of your creature base is rapidly dying (good luck winning the game with only Winged and Hibernation). Oh, and you have to keep paying life, too.

In short, Dystopia = crazy bad for us.

Really though, what do people think about Vindicate in the board (or, less probably, in the main)? The idea has been growing on me the more I think about it, and I need someone to tell me why it's bad.

[Volt]

Really though, what do people think about Vindicate in the board (or, less probably, in the main)? The idea has been growing on me the more I think about it, and I need someone to tell me why it's bad.

I don't know that it is bad. I haven't tested it. I will say that I like the fact that it can hit problematic lands (i.e. Tabernacle). I could see maybe running a split of 2 Harmonics + 2 Vindicates.

EDIT: Btw, I got in 10 games against Landstill a couple days ago. It was a 4c build with 4 Pernicious Deed + 2 Engineered Explosives + 4 Swords + 2 Diabolic Edicts + 2 Crucible of Worlds + 2 Wasteland. I went 4-6. All games were pre-sideboard. I wanted to play some sideboarded games, but we didn't have time. I think simply sideboarding in Pithing Needles for StPs woud have improved it to 50/50.

[Volt]

As I continue to test the new list, I quite often find myself wanting the Thoughtseizes to be Duresses. Thoughtseize is amazing, but the loss of life adds up so quickly in this deck. Also, I want to squeeze Dazes back in. Here's what I have in mind right now:

17 lands
4 Aether Vial

4 Crystalline
3 Hibernation
4 Muscle
4 Sinew
3 Winged

4 StP
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Duress
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder

[Lego]

Swordsed an Enchantress to keep him from going nuts.

He must have been playing really janky Enchantress... Verduran? Weird.


With Goblins, Elves, and Slivers all having upwards of 8 +1/+1 guys now, I'm not sure if E. Plague is that great anymore.

Hey, don't forget Merfolk!

Seriously though, about the deck. How fast are people finding the life loss from Hibernation Sliver and that from Thoughtseize adding up? I tested a few games against Thresh, and it adds up quite quickly, especially if they can actually manage to get a swing in with a big Goyf. I think Volt's latest list might be a good idea to start testing.

[Volt]

He must have been playing really janky Enchantress... Verduran? Weird.

Close. Mesa Enchantress. Yep, it was jank-tastic. He did clobber Goblins in the previous round, though. :)

[imran]

As I continue to test the new list, I quite often find myself wanting the Thoughtseizes to be Duresses. Thoughtseize is amazing, but the loss of life adds up so quickly in this deck. Also, I want to squeeze Dazes back in. Here's what I have in mind right now:

17 lands
4 Aether Vial

4 Crystalline
3 Hibernation
4 Muscle
4 Sinew
3 Winged

4 StP
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Duress
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder

If the life loss from the Fetchland, Hibernation Sliver and Thoughtseize adds up, I think going back to Duress is the wrong decision. Thoughtseize is just too good to be replaced. Killing a Goyf from the opponents hand cant be ignored. Rather than replacing Thoughtseize, I would try the following list:

17 lands
4 Aether Vial

4 Crystalline
3 Hibernation
3 Muscle
4 Sinew
2 Winged
2 Essence Sliver

4 StP
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Duress
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder

You can do the following evil things:
- Putting damage on the stack, gaining Life and putting for two life the creature back to your hand
- With one Crystalline, one Winged and one Essence Sliver you have 6 power on the board, meaning, you can race aggro easily, cause every creature is a better exalted Angel

I dont think the Essence Sliver is a cute win condition. If its able to reduce the damage from the essential cards, its good enough to be maindecked.
Has somebody tried it seriously?

[diffy]

I dont think the Essence Sliver is a cute win condition. If its able to reduce the damage from the essential cards, its good enough to be maindecked.
Has somebody tried it seriously?


One local plays it in his Meathooks. And Adan looses to it all the time. Hard. And it soooo annoys him.
Play Essence Sliver, your opponent ranting about how he always looses against crappy cards and sub-par choices is well worth it.
Joke aside, Essence Sliver does warrant some consideration as it has a really powerfull ability (you don't have to leave slivers back to block as you can just let that Goyf swing into you) and because he lives through one of the worst nightmares of this deck: Engineered Explosives.
The downside is that he's rather slowish but you could run like 1 or 2 so that you only draw it in the mid-late game where you want to have him.
I wouldn't cut Muscle/Sinew or any of the 'core' slivers of the deck to implement him though... you really need these to have an early- to midgame. I could see cutting some Duress/Daze (your opponent will automatically play around these anyways even if you don't run them as Legacy aggro-control = daze) which are somewhat hindering to your early board development and not quite good in the later game.

[Lego]

I dont think the Essence Sliver is a cute win condition.

He costs 4. (In case you didn't get it, that's supposed to be my entire argument. But no, I've never seriously tested him.)

[Volt]

You can do the following evil things:
- Putting damage on the stack, gaining Life and putting for two life the creature back to your hand

Does that actually work? I know life gain effects don't kick in until after combat damage resolves. Is there an opportunity to use that newly acquired life to buy back slivers that would otherwise die as a result of the combat? I don't think there is.

I have tested Essence Sliver a number of times in the past, mainly as an answer for Burn/Sligh decks. I almost always found him to be too slow for that purpose. I suppose it could actually be playable against Thresh and other aggro-control decks, since these matchups tend to involve long, protracted battles. So could Toxin Sliver, for that matter. Deathtouch slivers, anyone? Anyways, I put Essence Sliver on that next tier of slivers - along with Talon Sliver - that just don't quite make the cut. I certainly wouldn't cut any Muscles or Sinews for him.

Also, I don't think squeezing 2 Essence Slivers into the deck is going to provide a reliable buffer against all the loss of life from Thoughtseizes, Hibernation Sliver, etc.

[lebarion]

I've been working in a URb CounterSliver list lately (I really like Sedge Sliver) that still needs improvements, but made me think about this list, and a blasphemy passed through my mind...

What if I drop Crystalline to use Jitte?

The old Meathooks list used only Crystalline as "protection" and did fine. Now we have Hibernation, who protects our hive in a similar way. And we want Thoughtseize, that is very good but very dangerous, too. Jitte, besides being fantastic against other agro, can heal the damage from Hibernation and Thoughtseize.

Wath do you guys think?

(I hope not to be flamed too hardly... :rolleyes: )

[Volt]

I've been working in a URb CounterSliver list lately (I really like Sedge Sliver) that still needs improvements, but made me think about this list, and a blasphemy passed through my mind...

What if I drop Crystalline to use Jitte?

The old Meathooks list used only Crystalline as "protection" and did fine. Now we have Hibernation, who protects our hive in a similar way. And we want Thoughtseize, that is very good but very dangerous, too. Jitte, besides being fantastic against other agro, can heal the damage from Hibernation and Thoughtseize.

Wath do you guys think?


I experimented with that same idea a while back, believe it or not. As I recall, the deck was too slow, and Hibernation Sliver by itself wasn't enough protection from removal. Feel free to do your own testing, though. Sedge Sliver certainly is sexy. Blade Sliver ain't bad, either.

[Tao]

Current Deck List
...
4 Force of Will
...
Card Choices

Force of Will: Duh.



I do not think that Force of Will is so obvious. Have you thought about Stifle in its place?

Slivers have no card draw at all so that FoW against an opponent who plays no game-ending spells it is not needed card disadvantage. Unless they MD Counterbalance there are no cards in Threshold or similar decks that deserve to be FoWed because the slivers should be able to win creature wars anyway.

The cards that Slivers fear most are Wasteland (when you didn't resolve a Vial), Engineered Explosives, P. Deed and Combo kills. And against all these cards Stifle does the job just as good as FoW.

A few exceptions against which you really want FoW are Vial, Aluren and Survival but I think it is worth to think about cutting FoW.

[Pinder]

I do not think that Force of Will is so obvious. Have you thought about Stifle in its place?


No. Because Force of Will is so obvious. Next question.

Seriously, though. Stifle is great, I've sung its praises for this deck more times than I can count, but FoW is still essential.


Does that actually work? I know life gain effects don't kick in until after combat damage resolves. Is there an opportunity to use that newly acquired life to buy back slivers that would otherwise die as a result of the combat? I don't think there is.


You can't do it the way you described, but you can put damage on the stack, bounce them back, and then when damage resolves you get all that life back. I don't think the sliver has to be in play in order for you to gain life off of the damage it dealt, but I might be wrong

[Volt]

Let's break this down.

Force of Will is a very good card in every single matchup.

Stifle is tremendous in a few matchups, and unimpressive in many others.

Stifle doesn't protect you from combo when your opponent gets the play on turn 1.

Stifle doesn't help force through a critical spell, such as a Winged Sliver or a Swords to Plowshares.

Stifle doesn't counter Tarmogoyf, Counterbalance, Wrath of God, Humility, Standstill, and many other problematic spells.

...

Really, there's no comparison. I like Stifle, but Force of Will wins hands down.

[Curby]

@Volt, I see you went back down to 17 land, though you were saying if you were to cut down on Ponders you'd want to add a 19th. It's true that Ponder helps you search for land, but going down to 17 for Daze neither adds library manipulation nor provides mana acceleration. How has that been working for you?

@Duress vs. 'seize: I think if I can stop opposing tricks, my guys should be able to hold their own, especially with the bounce tricks. Therefore using Duress to stop those opposing tricks seems to be the most important part, and I'll just let the ground war play out as it may. Stopping goyf is great, and there are people here who still play Goblins, but the extra 3-4 life on average is also significant. Plus, I've only got one Thoughtseize. :cry:

@Daze: it only seems to be good against careless players, or someone who's so in a rush that he's forced to play things ASAP (e.g. I'm winning already). As Freund suggested, you play an Island and people assume FoW, Brainstorm, and Daze. If we were playing a lot of mana denial, it might have some teeth (as with Mana Tithe in D&T) but when I ran it in the UWg build it was only consistently useful in game 1 in turns 1-3 and little more than FoW-fodder at other times. Hard counters are great, situational ones less so.

@Stifle: Speaking of hard counters, I think Stifle is a meta-dependent but viable inclusion instead of Daze. It just gets better and better the more Wastelands, fetches, Explosives, and Deeds that people use around you, but lacking that there should be better options. (Then again, this is not the deck to play if everyone's playing EE/Deed around you.)

@FoW: I foresee running 4 until I also drop Crystalline Sliver and Brainstorm. :wink:

@Essence Sliver: I'd love to find room for him, but without Thoughtseize I wonder if it's still necessary. If only he were 2/2 for 2W a'la Sedge, Bladed, and Horned.

Btw, bouncing the Essence Sliver to protect it stops the life gain, just as bouncing Wren's Run Vanquisher after putting damage on the stack prevents Deathtouch. The creature has to be in play when damage resolves in order for the triggered ability to be put on the stack. After that, the Lifelink/Deathtouch/etc. creature can leave play, but it might have already died from opposing combat damage, which is presumably the reason you want to bounce it.

@Toxin Sliver: It's not quite deathtouch! Wren's Run Vanquisher wearing Viridian Longbow can kill 'goyfs all day long, but can't send River Boa to the yard. Neither is true in the case of Toxin Sliver. I should run him in my GRb 2HG sliver deck that complements this one though. :cool:

[Volt]

@Volt, I see you went back down to 17 land, though you were saying if you were to cut down on Ponders you'd want to add a 19th. It's true that Ponder helps you search for land, but going down to 17 for Daze neither adds library manipulation nor provides mana acceleration. How has that been working for you?

Well, I wasn't really keen on the idea of cutting a land, but it's just so dang hard to fit everything into this deck. 17 lands seems okay. However, if you run into a couple of wastelands, you better have a Vial out.



@Daze: it only seems to be good against careless players, or someone who's so in a rush that he's forced to play things ASAP (e.g. I'm winning already). As Freund suggested, you play an Island and people assume FoW, Brainstorm, and Daze. If we were playing a lot of mana denial, it might have some teeth (as with Mana Tithe in D&T) but when I ran it in the UWg build it was only consistently useful in game 1 in turns 1-3 and little more than FoW-fodder at other times. Hard counters are great, situational ones less so.

For me, the best thing about Daze in this deck is that it helps me make a Crystalline or Hibernation stick on turn 2. If you don't play them, people will eventually figure that out and stop playing around them. Plus, people will sometimes take chances and just hope that you don't have a Daze. It's nice to have a Daze in those situations. :)

[Curby]

Well, I wasn't really keen on the idea of cutting a land, but it's just so dang hard to fit everything into this deck.

Hmm, that leads me to blaspheme. What about a 61-62 card build? While conventional wisdom insists that you run the minimal count, the only reason is that you're usually adding crap, and the chances of drawing gold go down. However, what if it's all gold?

Simple math tells us that 3/60 is significantly less than 4/62. And the chances of drawing your broken 4-ofs? 4/60 is really damn close to 4/62. If we are running a bunch of cards (Duress, Ponder, Daze, Stifle, StP, Hibernation) that really need equal representation, this seems like a route worth consideration.

Conventional wisdom then fires back saying that there's ALWAYS something that can be cut, and honestly there usually is. However, if you're left cutting out 5-star cards, maybe running an extra card or two is not so crazy. After all, conventional wisdom also says that all rules (except 102.3a) have exceptions, and you're not REALLY good until you know when to break them. :wink:

[Volt]

Hmm, that leads me to blaspheme. What about a 61-62 card build? While conventional wisdom insists that you run the minimal count, the only reason is that you're usually adding crap, and the chances of drawing gold go down. However, what if it's all gold?

You read my mind. I have been very tempted lately to run a 61-card build.

Here is what the deck wants to look like, in its unabridged form:

20 lands
4 Aether Vial

4 Crystalline
4 Hibernation
4 Sinew
4 Muscle
3 Winged

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Duress
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

That's 67 cards. Now cut 6-7 cards. Which reminds me of an old joke that goes like this:

Q: How do you carve a statue?

A: Easy! Just take a rock and chip off all the parts that don't look like what you're making a statue of.

Yuk yuk. Problem is, I'm not sure exactly what the statue is supposed to look like. If anybody can tell me precisely which cards to cut and why, I'd be happy to listen. The first couple of cuts are easy. Since we're reducing the size of the deck, a few of the lands can go. After that, things get a lot harder.

[The Rack]

-2 Lands
-1 Hibernation Sliver
-1 Daze
-1 Ponder
-1 Duress
... Wow this deck is really tight. Those would be my offhand choices though. Are 3 Winged Slivers absolutely necessary? Because it comes down to absolutes when you're cutting stuff. My 2 cents.

[Volt]

-2 Lands
-1 Hibernation Sliver
-1 Daze
-1 Ponder
-1 Duress
... Wow this deck is really tight. Those would be my offhand choices though. Are 3 Winged Slivers absolutely necessary? Because it comes down to absolutes when you're cutting stuff. My 2 cents.

Congrats. That's the exact 61-card build to which I was referring. :)

You can get by with 2 Winged Slivers, sort of. Play the deck for a while, though, and you will find yourself losing some games simply because you couldn't find a Winged in time. This is a lesson I've had to learn more than once, unfortunately.

[Curby]

Another Saturday, another small local legacy event. The organizer ran some weird bracketed double elimination thing. There were 6 players total, and I played 4 people in 5 rounds to go 4-1 for first.

I'm using the just-mentioned 61-card build with the following side:

4 Perish (Lots of green aggro at the store today: T2 treefolk, elves, stompy, etc.)
3 Stifle (Took one out for Essence)
3 Harmonic Sliver (Standard stuff)
3 Meddling Mage (Mr. Ichorid wasn't there, so no need for *Void cards)
2 Essence Sliver (Two guys at that store like to play burn, maybe I should have used a whole playset)

Round 1: vs a little girl with a Saproling deck. I feel pretty horrible about running her over. :frown:

Sided: +4 Perish though it wasn't really necessary

Result: 2-0

Round 2: vs a Burn/sligh deck (basically burn with more creatures than a burn deck should use). I didn't get the cards I needed, kept hands that looked alright but probably should have been mulled, forgot to Daze/Brainstorm when appropriate, etc. Second game, I ended up with 3 Sinew Slivers and no Vial or white source. This was undoubtedly the worst combination of playskill and luck I've ever experienced with *hooks.

Sided: +2 Essence, -2 Winged (He used Pyroclasm, not Flamebreak)

Result: 0-2

Round 3: vs Black/White control. Not enough sweepers in his deck, and Crystalline/Hibernation makes targeted removal/disruption all but useless. Once I bounced a Sliver and put it back into play with Vial. It's nice when things work.

Sided nothing

Result: 2-0

Round 4: vs the green aggro deck I played before (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=159772&postcount=282). The UWg build won in straight games last time, but it MU seemed even better with the black splash. First turn, 2x Daze and 2x StP took care of his army, and his Jittes sat around feeling lonely. Second game a groundbreaker/River Boa tag team brought me down to 11. Double Might of old Krosa on the Boa during the next turn's main phase made a target for the whole block 'n bounce trick, turning 10 damage into 2. After that, I drew two Perish, which pretty much ends the game.

Sided: -3 Duress -1 Winged Sliver +4 Perish (I figured I could ignore the pump and just attack the creature base with countermagic, 4 sweepers, and 4 point removals)

Result: 2-0

Round 5: vs the burn deck again. This time I drew much better hands, and played like I actually have a brain. Game 1 I drew all three Dazes, and all three hit. It prevented his biggest blast from going off, allowing my creatures to come in for the kill. Game 2, he looked pretty comfortable at 17 life with me at 11 and two Muscles on the board. I drop 2 more Muscles and swing in for 10 damage, and he concedes when my FoW prevents him from winning the next turn.

Sided: +2 Essence, -2 Winged (He used Pyroclasm, not Flamebreak)

Result: 2-0

Comments: Today was all rogue/janky decks, so it's not a very good test of how it'd do against a more serious Legacy meta, but it's nice that it can take on pretty much anything and not keel over instantly. Unless you simultaneously get unlucky and play like crap, that is.

I never saw an Essence, wouldn't have been able to cast it round 2 anyway, and didn't need it in round 5. Either I need to run more, or I need to not run any. As an aside, neither Victual nor Darkheart would have done anything useful in round 2.

Daze was instrumental in several games today, and would have been useful in more had I been more careful. When the black splash was first (re)proposed, it was mentioned that 4 FoW isn't really much of a counter wall. After all (http://www.google.com/search?q=after+all+delerium&btnG=Google), counters are half of the "Countersliver" archetype name.

When you play against a green aggro deck and have Perish, life is good. :tongue:

In general, the deck played very well. I got my creatures when I needed them, my disruption when I needed it, and my removal when I needed it. Juggling 4 colors can be a bit difficult, but I think the extra splash is worth the awkwardness. Hibernation is almost as good as Crystalline at protecting against removal, and even better in combat.

Screw it all, I'm calling it Deathhooks. :laugh:

[Volt]

4-color Countersliver took 1st and 2nd at a tournament I attended today. See my tournament report here (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7467).

[Curby]

4-color Countersliver took 1st and 2nd at a tournament I attended today. See my tournament report here (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7467).

Wow, there's an entire forum for tourney reports? Silly me. :rolleyes:

How did the deck do without the Vials? You mentioned the double Trop game and the inability to cast anything useful, much like my first round against Burn. I wonder if the extra utility (fourth Daze, Duress, Ponder) is worth the loss of Vial's tricks and mana-fixing. Were you using Vials in that 10-game test against Landstill?

And how did 2 Tops do with 10 one-shot shuffle effects?

[Volt]

Well, I didn't lose so much as a game all day, so I guess you could say the deck did fine without Vials. :)

I took Vials out for this tournament because I had scoped out the metagame and knew there was going to be very little Thresh and Landstill. I don't necessarily recommend the Vial-less version for every metagame.

The Landstill playtesting results I reported earlier were with Vials in the deck.

I've been very happy with the Divining Tops. They come in extremely handy in games that go into the late game. The drawback is that they're not as good as Ponder on turn 1 when you're looking for a second land or a Daze or whatever. Overall, though, I think the tradeoff is worth it.

[Curby]

I've been very happy with the Divining Tops. They come in extremely handy in games that go into the late game. The drawback is that they're not as good as Ponder on turn 1 when you're looking for a second land or a Daze or whatever. Overall, though, I think the tradeoff is worth it.

That makes sense, but using 2-ofs seems kind of weird to me. You use one of something in a toolbox/tutoring case. Four when something's good, and three when something's good but you don't really want two in your opening hand. MUC and Thresh use 2 big creatures, but still it's an unusual number in competitive decks. Using two of a card makes you seem a little on the fence about the utility of a spell. It makes sense given that you're just trying it out in the deck, but given your record in the tourney (and possible testing since then) is it worth using more? Is 2 really the right answer when not using Vial?

If you're already going that far, have you considered throwing in Counterbalance in place of some Dazes? Bardo uses as few as 5 cards to run a small Counterbalance engine in his Thresh list, after all. We have much less search than Thresh so it probably won't work but I thought I'd throw it out there. =)

[Bryant Cook]

Is this deck going to try and abuse Teeg like it did Meddling Mage? It seems to me that the slivers may be getting weaker, but then again what do I know about this deck.

[DeathwingZERO]

This deck is hardly weak, as far as power is concerned. With 8 Muscle Slivers, it's got a fairly good board within the first 3-4 turns, especially if there was a first turn Vial. I know when I was going up against Pinder, I was seeing a very, very bad war of attrition when my Goyf's couldn't catch up to his slivers. It's also terrible when he can StP my stuff, and I can't his.

I'm also curious about Teeg, but at the same time, I question whether it's worth the slots. Mage seemed extremely good against combo because it just stops the main spell if given the time (turn 2), and a second one will stop an out or alternative win plan (turn 3 cast/vial).

Teeg unfortunately doesn't do anything against a backup plan, as you can still potentially Wish for an out and continue on, or use a maindecked one (if the deck packs any), which Mage typically stopped. However, a combination of the two might not be a bad plan, since (at least in Pinder's build), the Vial setting always stuck to 2.

[Curby]

Quite a varied meta in terms of archetypes and power, but I placed 3rd out of 20 on Friday. Report (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7540)

[Pinder]

Is this deck going to try and abuse Teeg like it did Meddling Mage? It seems to me that the slivers may be getting weaker, but then again what do I know about this deck.

I don't think that the deck itself has gotten any weaker (actually, it's probably gotten a little more robust with the fourth color now), it's just that the format is shifting in a direction in which it's difficult for Slivers to thrive (increased Thresh -> increased Board Control -> increased Sad Slivers). I think the deck is still objectively powerful, but you can never measure a deck in a vaccum.

[ccmon]

THis deck is good.
And Hibernation Sliver is really powerful in the format right now.:smile: