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Iranon
10-16-2007, 08:33 PM
Ever since I saw the Lorwyn faeries spoiled, I had thought there must be a way to use them in a tribal-based fish deck... unfortunately, it never seemed to work out too well. When I finally stopped thinking Faerie and started thinking Wizard, matters looked a lot more promising.


The Deck

//Lands (18)
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
3 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Riptide Laboratory

//Artifacts (6)
4 Aether Vial
2 Sensei's Divining Top

//Enchantments (2)
2 Counterbalance

//Wizards (24)
4 Sage of Epityr
4 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Dark Confidant
4 Shadowmage Infiltrator
4 Patron Wizard
4 Sower of Temptation

//Spells (10)
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Daze

//Sideboard (15)
4 Stifle
3 Perish
3 Planar Void
2 Threads of Disloyalty
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Tormod's Crypt



General Ruminations

The current version toned down the tribal theme a little, playing only 5 godawful cards that happen to work well with an all-wizard creature base. The Sprites are in the best old-school Fish tradition, the draw suite is naturally the same as in Baseruption, and the light mana denial theme reminds of U/G Thresh. Why play this instead of other variants then?

- A very solid mana base, even with the low basic count (you usually fetch them first)
- Synergistic mana denial + soft counters, the combination keeps either from being dead in the late game
- Ridiculous amounts of card advantage.
- High creature count and Sowers being a 3-for-1 (ok, this is being generous) lets you apply a lot of pressure in the midgame
- No graveyard dependence



On the other hand, there are a few inherent weaknesses:

- A fairly steep mana curve for Dark Confidants
- A diminished potential for going aggro in the first few turns
- Being susceptible to Engineered Plagues
- No low-end creature control



Card-by-card analysis:

Coloured Lands: Enough duals to avoid colour screw, enough fetches for reliable shuffle effects, enough basics to avoid being locked out of the game by wasteland recursion.

Wasteland: They can randomly cripple decks with a fragile mana base/careless pilots and also make our soft counters more effective.

Riptide Laboratory: Saves any of our creatures, allows us to get multiple uses out of Spellstutter Sprites and randomly bounces opposing wizards. I'd really like more despite its ultra-jank status, but colour consistency becomes an issue.



Aether Vial: Circumvents opposing counters, allows us to churn out wizzies in the midgame at a disconcerting rate, allows surprise counters with Spellstutter sprite/Patron Wizard and gets around the latter's obscene colour requirements.

Sensei's Divining Top: Another replacement for traditional cantrips. Works wonders with Counterbalance, but we rarely want to see 2 and never more.



Counterbalance: A very useful tool for Stack and World Domination. Since we often have better things to do with our early turns and we run alternate means of ensuring that our opponent will never cast a meaningful spell again, 2 are enough.



Sage of Epityr: finds what we need, blocks Lackeys (not quite as important as it used to be) and is either a chump blocker or fuels Patron Wizard in the midgame. Hardly a strong card, but does many small things that make the deck run more smoothly.

Spellstutter Sprite: Counters the stuff that counts in a format with extremely low mana curves, another warm body, occasionally a recursive counterspell from hell.

Dark Confidant: Keeps them coming. Hurts quite a bit in a deck that usually doesn't start as the aggressor, but it's worth it.

Shadowmage Infiltrator: Secondary draw and another evasive goon to nibble at the opponent's life total.

Patron Wizard: He makes battles over the stack totally unfair: With him in the picture, the deck has the capacity of using each source independently to deny an opponent spells: Mana (Countertop), hand cards (Free counters) and creatures. Since he doesn't do anything specials in multiples and has atrocious colour demands, I really feel as if I should lower the count (probably for another Daze) but so far he has been excellent, much to my surprise.

Sower of Temptation: Gets us from setup/defense into arsekicking mode with one spell. A Control Magic with a free evasive beater thrown in? Sign me up. In a tarmogoyf-dominated format this will often result in a stalemate on the ground while our fearsome/flying weenies nibble the opponent to death.



Brainstorm: Still the best cantrip if you run fetch lands, and the only decent one that has full synergy with Counterbalance. I'll take 4.

Force of Will: Hard counters are good. Free Counters are better. Free hard counters are the best of all unless the drawbacks are crippling.

Daze: The emergency backup; the deck has better things to do with its mana than pay for counterspells, and having a Daze in hand allows us to play spells with more far-reaching effects while retaining the option to counter gamebreaking spells of our opponent.



Stifle handles storm spells and further punishes fetch-happy manabases. Perish is quite useful against most aggro/control decks these days. Threads of Disloyalty provides another way to kill the opponent with their own creatures. Planar Void is cheap and effective graveyard hate, with all the draw and dig in the deck I prefer it over Leyline; the lone Crypt gets rid of what's already there. Engineered Explosives kills tokens, chalices, artifact mana and random things I didn't think of.



What's not there:

Other cantrips: No synergy with Counterbalance (heck, even Sage can randomly be vialed out in response to the trigger) and 10 library manipulation cards seemed enough.

Azami, Lady of Scrolls or other high-end wizards: The deck doesn't get to 5 mana reliably, and for cards costing more than 3 I want an immediate effect on the gamestate.

Straightforward beaters: Either I have no need of them (opponent has no creatures, so my weenie horde will get the job done eventually) or Sower of Temptation will do a better job (he or she does).

Discard: I'd like to keep the splash light for consistency reasons. The deck is a little slower than others of its kind, so the inherent tempo disadvantage can matter.



Closing Words

I'm not sure how much potential the concept has, but my experiences so far were promising. By not depending on graveyards and big green beaters, the deck can sideboard in cards that ruin the day for people who do. There's a solid mix of free and sustained countermagic to have a solid defense throughout the game.
There are a few things the decks can't handle adequately at the moment (hordes of untargetable beaters a la Countersliver come to mind), but I think this has some game against most of the popular decks.

ebbitten
10-16-2007, 09:11 PM
looks very interesting, I'm not quite positive if the counterbalance/top is good for the main deck but still looks fairly solid although without the overwhelming power that was goblins.

from Cairo
10-16-2007, 09:14 PM
Is 12/18 lands as :u: sources enough to reliably support Patron Wizard in the early game? Seems like you're stretching your manabase pretty thin with the color requirements of the deck, but I could be wrong. Maybe Confidant and Brainstorm help enough.

Tacosnape
10-16-2007, 09:16 PM
Sweet. A N&D deck I finally want to post in. Didn't even realize Spellstutter was a Wizard until I read this list.

I worked on this same deck for awhile. Same color Scheme and all.

Where's Umezawa's Jitte? You need it. Not only is it -insane- with Shadowmage Infiltrator, it's also a safeguard outlet to gain life if your Dark Confidant happens to develop a case of the FoW-flips.

Baumeister
10-16-2007, 09:40 PM
Smother can be used as additional early-game removal to control pesky Tarmogoyfs and the like. Amazing deck name, by the way.

Lemuria
10-16-2007, 10:22 PM
What about Trinket Mage?

it's good for fetch your Vials and Tops

Maveric78f
10-17-2007, 02:25 AM
Hum I was going to say the same. mage looks absolutely needed in this deck. It shuffles after a sage of epityr, it gives you card advantage, it fetches your single tormod and explosives in SB (that could evenbe MD)

I would go for these changes :
-4wasteland
+1tundra
+1scrubland
+2island

-1top
-2counterbalance
-4sower
-2daze
-4spellluter sprite
+4trinket mage
+4meddling mage
+2perish (yes even main deck it's good)
+1tormod's crypt
+1EE
+1needle

SB :
-1perish
-1tormod
-2EE
+4engineered plague (even with that you are a bye for gob I think)

However, I think the deck is not viable because of its MU against gob and its MU against Ugr thresh that plays 4*pyroclasm in SB (even MD sometimes). It is very sensible to every hate to gob.

Nydaeli
10-17-2007, 02:51 AM
Where's Voidmage Prodigy? He's the whole reason I'd ever consider running Wizard tribal. He makes your tiny utility guys (Sage of Epityr and Spellstutter Sprite) a whole lot better. He's also amazing with Vial.

I have to agree with Maveric that the white splash looks really hot. I'm not sure whether to play Uwb or just straight U/W, but Meddling Mage is really good. If you do cut black, you should try Ninja of the Deep Hours - he also allows for cute Vial tricks and the like.

matelml
10-17-2007, 03:06 AM
What about meddling mage instead of the sage? Ofcourse you would play Stp too.

Maveric78f
10-17-2007, 04:35 AM
The sage can't be cut. It's one of the most important slot for consistance.

Cutting the black would be a big mistake too IMO as it gives the best SB cards and the drawers. Removing shadowmage for prodigy looks possible. I also think that 4*patron is too much.

The mana base should be something between 16 and 18 lands with 7/8 fetches and quite a lot of basics (1*plains, 1*swamp, 1/2*tundra, 1/2*underground sea, x*islands)

The absolutely 4-of :
- meddling mage
- sage of epytir
- dark confidant
- vial
- force of will
- brainstorm

It remains 18-20 slots (depending on the number of lands)

The 2/3-of :
- voidmage prodigy (3)
- trinket mage (3)
- patron (2)

9-14 slots remaining

The tutorable stuff (1-of) :
1*sensei
0/1*needle (1)
0/1*EE (0)
0/1*tormod (0)

Still 5-13 slots remaining.

I think that stifle should be 4-of too in order to protect yourself against EE and deed and for random stuff. Daze can be cool too. Jitte also.

HdH_Cthulhu
10-17-2007, 04:53 AM
Where's Voidmage Prodigy? He's the whole reason I'd ever consider running Wizard tribal. He makes your tiny utility guys (Sage of Epityr and Spellstutter Sprite) a whole lot better. He's also amazing with Vial.

I have to agree with Maveric that the white splash looks really hot. I'm not sure whether to play Uwb or just straight U/W, but Meddling Mage is really good. If you do cut black, you should try Ninja of the Deep Hours - he also allows for cute Vial tricks and the like.

What about Trinket mage and a toolbox?

There are a lot of good mages you couldnt run all of them...

Maveric78f
10-17-2007, 05:02 AM
What about meddling mage

What about Trinket mage and a toolbox?

Are my posts invisible ?

Iranon
10-17-2007, 05:10 AM
Many thanks for the feedback.



Re the wizard selection: I've tried building some form of Wizard aggro/control or other for a while. Pre-Lorwyn versions of the deck fiddled around with Meddling Mage, Voidmage Prodigy and a tiny Trinket toolbox. I much prefer this build.

Trinket Mage just isn't the same without acceleration. This deck has no capability to play him first turn to follow through with a 5/5 Phyrexian Marauder. A Vial that won't drop stuff before turn 5 is underwhelming. An Explosive that goes off on turn 4 is too late in the Match-ups where I need them most. A turn 4 Needle has some applications (Pernicious Deed, I'm thinking about you) but with the rest being decidedly poor this isn't good enough (if your meta warrants it, you could just run a few Needles maindeck).
If I make changes to make Trinket even halfway decent, I might as well play Faerie Stompy.

Voidmage Prodigy requires keeping mana open, doesn't usually do anything before Patron Wizard does and doesn't provide card advantage. He's easy to cast and sure looks like he would give us a zillion outs in the midgame... but in actual gameplay I found him pretty disappointing.

Meddling Mage requires forgoing either the draw suite or colourless lands + other spells of comparable strength, both of which I believe to be strong enough to deserve play over him. The current ways of keeping an opponent from casting something work hand in hand and are a lot more flexible.
He was one of the stronger cards in my Ubw builds, but I've not been as happy with those as I am with this.
Would it be worthwhile to squeeze a few in in with a mini-splash of 1-2 Tundras?

Patron Wizard really is so good that I want to see him every game. I can rarely play him turn 3, but that matters surprisingly little... I can play him turn 4 having wastelanded before (which ups his effectiveness), vial him in in response to an expensive spell etc.
Still, there's the matter of being dead-ish in multiples and the 4th and possibly the 3rd are fair game for shaving.



Other stuff:

Maindeck Perish is some pretty heavy metagaming, but why not. Against some of the best decks in the field, it's another must-counter in a deck full of them. This deck is rather strong at keeping an opponent down once it has the advantage, so resolving Perish will decide many games there and then.

Engineered Plague: Can come online too late against EtW on the draw, but definitely worth the slot if other tribal decks are very popular. Unfortunately, such popularity might make this a substandard choice in the first place as I'm confident of neither the Goblins nor the Countersliver match-up.

I'm no fan of 1-for-1 removal in this. Wizards simply don't have the muscle to capitalise on them, and we can usually afford to wait a little until stronger anti-creature tools become available. Coupled with a steep toll exacted from Dark Confidant, this means the deck tends to drop low on life against aggressive openings, but more often than not those run into a brick wall before this becomes an issue.
They're some good against noncombatants like Breakfast creatures



Hmm, why the name change when the original one was quite descriptive and highlighted the innovations? I suppose to open up discussion about faerie-less versions or to avoid confusion with unrelated Vintage ports, meh either way. If the reason was political correctness, double meh.

monkeyfeelers
10-18-2007, 03:10 PM
uhhhh... where are your tarmagoyfs?

Joon
10-18-2007, 03:42 PM
uhhhh... where are your tarmagoyfs?
uhhhh... where is your brain?

...

Cool deck, but I think splashing black and white turns this just into a variant of Ubw Fish :confused:

Cabal-kun
10-18-2007, 03:45 PM
uhhhh... where are your tarmagoyfs?

Tarmagoyf doesn't, believe it or not, fit into every deck. Especially when said deck doesn't play green.

Alfred
10-19-2007, 02:41 AM
Do you know what would actually be really good in this deck? Mirror Entity. The problem with Wizards has always been them getting their asses kicked by other creature decks, and Mirror Entity would really help you get around that. It's also another Faerie for Spellstutter Sprite.

It would give the deck a certain level of explosiveness that it doesn't really have much of.

Also, I have to say, this deck really needs Jitte. The deck has hardly any board control, so if they get a ton of creatures into play, you're going to lose 90% of the time. Jitte is really needed to help swing things back in your favour if you're losing.

I also really like the Riptide Laboratory + Spellstutter Sprite combo. Maybe you could include 1 more Lab?

DS2
10-19-2007, 07:07 AM
voidmage prodigy is very good in this deck
you can use vial to pop a wizard and counter a spell, wich can't be countered (vial and you using the ability of voidmage prodigy)

Grim lavamancer would also be a great card and meddling mage, but the problem is that you have to chose between red, black and white

FakeSpam
10-19-2007, 10:38 AM
voidmage prodigy is very good in this deck

Not true. Voidmage prodigy isn't good in any deck. Even a deck full of wizards.

Iranon
10-21-2007, 03:09 PM
Voidmage Prodigy has been exceptionally poor in testing. He gives flexibility, but doesn't improve the overall position much - vastly different from Patron Wizard, which lets us pit all our resources against the opponent's spells.

Jitte is also lacking since our creatures aren't evasive and will lose in creature wars. We also don't have the acceleration to throw an opponent off-balance with a Jitte-equipped weenie.The deck leans rather heavily on Sower of Temptation, but Jitte is not the way to fix it.

Mirror Entity is one of the better suggestions as it singlehandedly gets around the problem of running only wimps, and is a Faerie to boot. Unlike Meddling Mage and Swords to Plowshares, it fixes a notable problem and synergises with what the deck tries to do in the first place (StP addresses the problem, but hardly fixes it).

Alfred
10-22-2007, 04:17 PM
Just to let you guys know, I've been testing this deck out, and this is a pretty darn good deck. Mirror Entity is great! Seriously, it turns your 3-4 wimpy 1/1s and/or 2/2s into GG, and lets you compete with other aggro decks like Thresh and Goblins instead of being completely blown out of the water. Jitte is obviously also too good not to run in a deck like this.

//Spells
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Stifle
4 AEther Vial

//Creatures
3 Shadowmage Infiltrator
3 Mirror Entity
4 Sower of Temptation
4 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Patron Wizard
4 Martyr of Frost
4 Dark Confidant

//Lands
2 Underground Sea
1 Riptide Laboratory
2 Tundra
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
2 Island
2 Flooded Strand

//SB
4 Meddling Mage
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Perish

I find Martyr of Frost is definitely better than Sage of Epityr, and I cleared the Counterbalance/Top engine out of there to make room for the Entities and Jitte. Your creatures are the main lock components, and I found that 2 SDT and 2 Counterbalances couldn't really be relied upon to both be drawn.

The mana has been pretty good so far, but I don't know if the whole Wasteland business is worth it. More testing to come, but I'm really liking this list so far.

Zork
10-23-2007, 03:23 AM
I never thought I would see the day that Wizard Control, a joke deck in the trinity of joke decks (Thunderbluff -> combo, Wizard Control -> control, Food Chain Aurochs -> aggro), would see serious comment.

Honestly, though, I have messed with a list for this kind of deck for months and no matter how you sliced it it was too slow. I haven't messed with it in a while, but the list I ran had: Meddling Mage, Confidant, Patron Wizard, Finkel, Trinket Mage, Stifles, Forces, A toolbox (Artifact land, SDT, Dreadnought, and metagame stuff like Crypt).

I wish I had numbers for them but the only list I actually have is a joke list.

The deck tended to lose to aggro hard unless you can trade with them early and then lock them with Patron (unlikely), or get a nought down turn 2-3 (unlikely).

It could only beat combo if you had the force for their early plays, got wizards down at the same time, and hit patron as soon as possible.

The deck was best at beating aggro-control but thresh became too savage to have favorable matchups once it got Goyf. It still stomps fish I guess.

Iranon
10-23-2007, 05:25 PM
@ Alfred: I would never ever cut Sage of Epityr. It finds lands, the right creatures for Vial or whatever else you need (while being another warm body to chump block or aid Patron Wizard). I haven't tested the Martyrs, but I suppose they would be plagued by the same problem as Voidmage Prodigy.

With the changelings and 3 Jittes, you shifted a lot of focus towards Aggro. Is it enough to be the aggressor in match-ups you formerly weren't, or is the only benefit a better defense?
At first glance, I'd probably get rid of the Jittes for Meddling Mage maindeck.

I'm rather undecided on the issue of Counterbalance + Top myself. It has won me plenty of games, but Patron Wizards + ludicrous numbers of wizards are a preferable means of stack domination. 4 non-wizard slots for a reasonably strong backup plan is questionable. In a controllish build, Stifle is a less powerful but solid and synergistic (mana denial theme) alternative... and of course splashing white gives us more playable wizards.



@ Zork: I think the new additions do a lot for the deck. Trinket Mage is quite slow without aceleration pieces, and StifleNaught is hardly reliable. Sower of Temptation has a huge capactiy of swinging games, with no other card involved. Aggro is probably still the hardest archetype to face with this... but combo? We have free counterspells, tons of permanent-based counters (most of which are a persisting obstacle) and multiple 1-card draw engines/hand refinement spells to keep them coming. That should pretty much ruin their day.

Wizard Control might have been a joke once... but I also remember a time when playing Goblin decks would be met with well-deserved derision.