[Deck] Black Splash Goblins. Back to the Top Tier?

[TrialByFire]

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [U] Badlands
2 [MM] Rishadan Port
2 [8E] Mountain (2)
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [LOR] Auntie's Hovel
1 [R] Swamp (1)
2 [ON] Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
1 [LOR] Boggart Mob
4 [LOR] Mad Auntie
2 [TE] Mogg Fanatic
2 [LOR] Wort, Boggart Auntie
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [P2] Goblin Matron
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
1 [10E] Siege-Gang Commander
3 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [AT] Pyrokinesis
SB: 1 [10E] Goblin King
SB: 3 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 [LOR] Thoughtseize


My first attempt at a decklist. Played Deadguy and a couple other random decks on MWS and smashed them. Wort is a house and Mad Auntie is what goblins has been missing to make it truly unbeatable. She invalidates E. Plagues and in multiples its ridiculous. SB needs work I think but lemme know what you think. Lets get this back into the decks to beat.

The Sharpshooter and Boggart Mob are the only Maindeck slots that can be changed, everything else is amazing. Maybe Magus of the Moon also in the side?

[Deep6er]

How does this deck address Goblins' weak matchups? I see no answer to Tarmogoyf, nor do I see an answer to Storm Combo. How does this deck improve Goblins' chances against those two archetypes?

[outsideangel]

How does this deck address Goblins' weak matchups? I see no answer to Tarmogoyf, nor do I see an answer to Storm Combo. How does this deck improve Goblins' chances against those two archetypes?

I imagine Thoughtseize in the board helps at least a little bit, and maindecking Sharpshooter again gives an answer (ableit a sub-par one) to Empty the Warrens. Mad Auntie also helps deal with Pyroclasm out of Red Thresh's board.

But yeah, the deck still can't much deal with a Tarmogoyf. Maybe some of the black Goblin/Changeling tribal removal might be worth considering? Something I've also been meaning to give another go is Goblin Goon.

[ClearSkies]

What about Patriach's Bidding? It deals with pyroclasm far better than the Mad Auntie or whatever.

With so much creatures, Cabal Therapy seem to have a place somewhere, or maybe not. (Maybe thoughtseize is better than Therapy)

[TrialByFire]

So far, Tarmogoyf has not been a problem. Just making more guys and swinging gets the job done really. People who are afraid of losing guys shouldn't be playing this deck anyways. Also, how exactly is Tarmogoyf a problem for goblins? Turn 2 4/5 is not that bad. Vial in more men and attack. I guess i could try Nameless Inversion or something.

Patriarch's Bidding costs 5 mana and can't be Vialed in.
Also, Cashsieze and Chalice help against Storm Combo but I don't really want to compromise the main deck with anything that is not a goblin right now. You cant have a good matchup against everything. Its not possible. This deck is pretty good against the graveyard based combo decks. I didnt really think about Storm combo because honestly nobody plays it in Mass meta

[Jaynel]

Isn't Fanatic pretty awesome against Ichorid and Cephalid Breakfast? I'd want him as a 4-of in this meta.

[Iranon]

Re Tarmogoyf: Shouldn't Mad Auntie be a rather relevant inclusion here?

On the attack, he'll do nothing or trade with one of your numberous goblins - your choice. On the defense, he'll stop a goblin but not kill him.

[Zork]

Question: Why is Mad Auntie amazing while Goblin King isn't? Goblin King also gives your dudes mountainwalk, which is ridiculous against red thresh. Regenerating a goblin seems underwhelming compared to evasion against the biggest goblin hoser.

I would find room to fit in another Seige-Gang, and 4 fanatics.

Also of note, Wort can recur Nameless Inversion and Tarfire for recurrable removal/burn. I don't know if its worth it (maybe help under ghostly prison?), but its just a thought.

[calosso]

Question: Why is Mad Auntie amazing while Goblin King isn't? Goblin King also gives your dudes mountainwalk, which is ridiculous against red thresh. Regenerating a goblin seems underwhelming compared to evasion against the biggest goblin hoser.

I would find room to fit in another Seige-Gang, and 4 fanatics.

Also of note, Wort can recur Nameless Inversion and Tarfire for recurrable removal/burn. I don't know if its worth it (maybe help under ghostly prison?), but its just a thought.

Unlike goblin king, mad auntie gives only YOUR goblins +1/+1, so that card is actually good in the goblin mirror.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

First i must say dont play any tribal removals in the time of goyf...

Thene i must say dont play less thene 4 mogs! He is better thene piledriver!

And Mad Auntie is totaly crap against pyroclasm! LoL! But Mad Auntie is still a good card...

[Rood]

Anyone ever consider using Planar Void for black splash? If able to be casted T1 it can hose down Goyf, Breakfast, and Ichorid combo.

[TeenieBopper]

Where the hell is smother? Patriarch's Bidding? Cabal Therapy (yes, it's better than thoughtsieze in goblins)

p.s.- The Lorwyn goblins are all flash and no substance. Mark my words.

edit: Holy shit. There's only two Fanatics. No. No no no. Just no.


Thene i must say dont play less thene 4 mogs! He is better thene piledriver!


This man speaks the truth.

edit2: if you're playing such a heavy black splash (either with a shit ton of Lorwyn goblins, or with Bidding's BB cost), cut Port. It completely fucks with your tempo and opens you up even more to color screw. I fucking hated mulliganing Vial, 4x goblin, wasteland, port hands.

[Deep6er]

What you guys are missing is the fact that you won't ALWAYS have an asston of guys. You have to remember that you're Threshold opponent won't be sitting there doing nothing while you pump out a shit-ton of guys for free. No. Doesn't work like that. He will be ACTIVELY disrupting you with countermagic, and killing your relevant creatures with various removal spells. Then, even if you win the first game, you still have to deal with the hate in the board. Pyroclasm is still really good against you if you only have a single Mad Auntie. Or, if they kill it. Thoughtseize does nothing to guarantee that every single one of your spells will resolve. You have to approach deckbuilding more REALISTICALLY. You should take into account your opponent being able to stop your strategy, then have another strategy for when your first one fails. Not, "OMG, I HAVE SO MANY GUYS HE CAN'T COUNTER THEM ALL!!!!". That doesn't work. You know why? Because Lackey is not a threat after turn 3. Nor is Mogg Fanatic. Stop being impressed by your deck, and look at it objectively.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Play Sudden Spoiling the SB. Seriously. Thresh has got nothin' against that shit.

[morgan_coke]

what about Thorn of Amethyst? Its like Sphere of Resistance except it doesn't affect you at all. chews up thresh and combo pretty good. Also, is there any reason you can't splash both green and black if you're going to drop the ports anyways? Maybe something like:

Mana
4x Aether Vial
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Badlands
4x Taiga
6x Mountain
4x Wasteland

Goblins
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Mogg Fanatic

4x Gempalm Incinerator
4x Mogg War Marshal

4x Goblin Ringleader
4x Goblin Matron
2x Mad Auntie
1x Goblin Sharpshooter
1x Boggart Shenanigans

4x Goblin Ringleader
1x Wort, Boggart Auntie
1x Siege-Gang Commander

Sideboard
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Thorn of Amethyst
4x Planar Void
3x Krosan Grip

Shenanigans is actually a pretty nice anti-plague card, since it at least turns all your dudes into burn spells, and its totally tutorable with ringleader and matron.

[Nydaeli]

0 Goblin Piledriver

There's really just no way that is correct. I guess War Marshal recursion is kind of cute, but it's not nearly as powerful as swinging for the win out of nowhere with hasty Piledrivers.

[Barook]

Also of note, Wort can recur Nameless Inversion and Tarfire for recurrable removal/burn. I don't know if its worth it (maybe help under ghostly prison?), but its just a thought.

How is this better than Gempalm Incinerator as removal? Gempalm also cantrips, giving you even more CA.

[Maveric78f]

Your black splash builds are awful. The best splash after Lorwyn is W according to me, Crib Swap and Mirror entity are the best items (just figure out that they are goblins). However I understand that a double splash B would be promising just in order to play Wort*1.

The anticombo techs should be chalice, thorns and chant. The 2 first are also anti thresh techs, so that's nice. I love the sudden spoiling tech, but it's a non tutorable 3CC spell that has to be kept in order to be played in resp to pyroclasm or during your combat phase.

[Zork]

How is this better than Gempalm Incinerator as removal? Gempalm also cantrips, giving you even more CA.

It's probably not, but I had just recently tested against a prison deck (stax) where more than once I had wished I could throw some damage to the dome to finish him off. Tarfire is not great for this, but it was just something I figured I would mention.

[AnwarA101]

Why is this not in the Goblin thread? Does the black splash make the deck unique in someway that differentiates it from the rest of the splashes?

[Schtames Ryan]

How about Spiderwig Boggart (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=146445) for an almost unblockable Piledriver? Could break through stall situations very easily.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

How about Spiderwig Boggart (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=146445) for an almost unblockable Piledriver? Could break through stall situations very easily.

Yes but that is the only thing that guye could do! So he is not so good...

[the slums]

If your going to play black goblins please find a way to play therapy and smother.

[Shriekmaw]

Where the hell is smother? Patriarch's Bidding? Cabal Therapy (yes, it's better than thoughtsieze in goblins)

p.s.- The Lorwyn goblins are all flash and no substance. Mark my words.

edit: Holy shit. There's only two Fanatics. No. No no no. Just no.




I'm pretty familiar with the new goblins in Lorwyn and I don't really believe it adds anything to Legacy Goblins. All of the black goblin cards in Lorwyn are good, but I believe they are all "win-more" cards that are not necessary. If I played R/b goblins, I would run therapy main deck with smother and maybe bidding in the board. I believe Legacy Goblins is very good and the new set does add some neat cards, but they are not needed in the deck.

[Maveric78f]

and oversold cemetary (or oath of ghouls) in g2 when your opponent has removed all his counterspells and enchantment removals?

[Fistandantilus]

Just brainstorming here, but wouldn't Mogg Maniac be a decent foil to Tarmogoyf?

Maybe block the Tarmogoyf with the Maniac (perhaps even vialling in Maniac during the declare blockers step) and then, with damage on the stack, regenerate the Maniac with Mad Auntie or something.

Also, when combined with Gempalm Incinerator and/or Skirk Fire Marshal, Mogg Maniac gives goblins a bit more reach.

[Drossie]

What about this build? Source: http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/14902.html


R/B Goblins
Maindeck:

4 Aether Vial
4 Thorn Of Amethyst

4 Boggart Mob
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
1 Siege-gang Commander
3 Wort, Boggart Auntie

5 Mountain
4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 City Of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:

3 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Dralnu's Crusade
4 Leyline Of The Void
4 Cabal Therapy

[TeenieBopper]

Bogart Mob sucks.

Where's Mogg Fanatic?

Why in god's name are you running three Wort?

Where's your maindeck removal?

[puddn]

The best splash after Lorwyn is W according to me, Crib Swap and Mirror entity are the best items (just figure out that they are goblins). However I understand that a double splash B would be promising just in order to play Wort*1.


yes, the white splash gives us crib swap which is the best answer against tarmogoyf imho.
Mirror entity is a win more card only when you have a lot of mana so i think it's not an auto-include.

I'm working on a Rwb version with 2 crib swap and 1 wort MD (but i can't find a place for her), 4 oversold cemetary SB (and maybe planar void)
All suggestions are welcome ;)

[Media314r8]

Re: Puddin

Wort seems like a fine answer to goyf. Recurring chumps + evasion = win. (especially when chumps are seige-gang, matron, or ringleader) Assuming you have an auntie, wort is allready out of fire/ice range, and can be out of bolt range. Wort is a house, and IMO the reason to splash black in the first place.

[raharu]

Not Quite familiar with the intricate mechanice of goblins, but maybe there is a call for 4 Thought Seize and 4 Therapy?

[Happy Gilmore]

Not Quite familiar with the intricate mechanice of goblins, but maybe there is a call for 4 Thought Seize and 4 Therapy?

Doing that takes away the effectiveness of Ringleader. That has always been the problem with Goblins, you can only adapt so much without sacrificing structural integrity.

[Marco]

Check out http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7441 for a possible new Goblin deck.

[puddn]

Wort is very good but i don't think it's the first reason to splash black...
its thoughness is 3 so can be bolted easily.
But you say, with mad auntie it's invincible... ok it can be true but you take the wrong way if you base your strategy on this.
the first reason to splash black imho is for oversold cemetary in SB (more more solid than wort), wort is just a plus

[Media314r8]

I Just won a six round tournament undefeated with R/B goblins in Akron, OH. My list was as follows:

//Artifacts//
4 x AEther Vial
4 x Thorn of Amethyst

//Creatures//
4 x Goblin Lackey
3 x Goblin Sledder
4 x Goblin Piledriver
1 x Goblin Tinkerer
4 x Goblin Warchief
1 x Mad Auntie
4 x Goblin Matron
3 x Gempalm Incinerator
1 x Wort, Boggart Auntie
4 x Goblin Ringleader
2 x Siege-Gang Commander

//Lands//

4 x Badlands
4 x Bloodstained Mire
5 x Mountain
2 x Swamp
4 x Wasteland
2 x Wooded Foothills

//SB//

3 x Mad Auntie
4 x Thoughtsieze
4 x Chalice
1 x Goblin King
1 x Goblin Settler
1 x Goblin Sharpshooter
1 x Goblin Tinkerer

My rounds were as follows:

Match 1:
vs GRW rifter

turn two on the play he living wishes for a Tividar of thorn after seeing my Aether Vial. I draw (frowns) a turn two lackey who debates (and eventually does) going through the vial his turn three EoT. His turn thrre play is Tividar, with no targets. I vial in lackey EoT, move vial up to two, and Go turn three warchief, vial in driver, swing with lackey, driver, and chief. He (correctly) blocks lackey and goes to 12. (with a fetch) His turn four he swings in for two, drops astral slide and cycles to blink Tividar, killing warchief. I lose this game after my turn four ringleader hits jack-squat and he goes turn five swing, Hierarch, cycle/blink tividar killing driver leaving him at 16 and me with a lonely ringleader.

Game two I get crazy-go-nuts hand with turn one lackey, turn two swing in and drop siege-gang, play driver, turn three play sledder, swing for infinite. He cant keep up, and he futily wishes for (but cant play) a tividar his turn three only to dies on my turn four. Yippee for lackey brokenness.

Game three is very close, with him getting lightning rift AND slide along with tividar, but my first auntie answers his slide, protecting my driver and chief. He attempts to blink tividar/rift auntie, but I vial in auntie number two (!!) to keep the rift from killing her and tap to regen his tividar target. I evenutally get three vials on board after a standoff against two hierarchs, tividar, a couple of walls, and rift/slide. I chain-vial matron for ringleader hitting siege gang, which i vial in, and sledder, who lets me push through all my hasty dudes for lethal. Sledder brings home the bacon and warrents my choice over fanatic.

Match 2
Vs mono-blue modded Faerie-stompy.

He is playing a literal faerie stompy without drakes, but with every annoying faerie ever printed, including two maindeck 1/1 pr reds, and four 2/1 pro-reds. He also has tap-down champion faerie, cloud, ect. I pummel him game one with double driver and lackey shennanigens.

Game two he lands three (!!!) 2/1 pro-red guys in a row and beats for three a turn with his 4/4 champion until he can swing for a lethal 10 in the air. Hacks. Can't see a driver to save me in this game.

Game three he forces driver number one, and does something nutty like cloud of faeries, cloud of faeries, scion of (whatever, the 1/1 faerie lord that pumps others and gives them shroud.) I tell him he'd better have scion number two or another force, and instead of playing scion number two, he opts to bounce my warchief to gain tempo. I tell him if I hit a land, he loses, and that he should have played scion number two and just won next turn. I draw a land, play warchief via vial, and matron for a sharpshooter, killing his entire board.

Match 3:
Vs UGr thresh

My buddy Kyle Paster is playing his thresh deck, and he scoops to me to go get food,as I won all four of the mathes we tested before the tournament started. Some of the matches we tested went as follows:

1. I play turn one lackey, he doesnt have a turn one goose or bolt: I win

2. He keeps a one or two lander and a cantrip. I play vial, then waste his land turn two

3. I play torn turn two, and he can't grow dryad/cantip into a goyf fast enough to stop the goblin team.

4. I get thoughtsize on goyf, chalice at one, or two aunties post boards.

5. I get wort and chump his goyf ad nausuem. (one with a matron, which I recurrec every turn until I could swing in with chief, matron, wort, and two drivers)

Game one vs thresh was about 50/50 unless he kept a one-lander or didnt have an answer ro turn one leackey. This apparently happened often, as after the first few trial matches, he'd agressivly mull into an active force, or bolt, or a two lander with a cantrip and goyf. I also won a lot of games thanks to sledder, and it DOES let lackey through after they answer with goose. (that or they trade a goose for a sledder and have to deal with lackey turn two (niether of which is a good position for thresh) Games two and three were slightly favorable for golbins, (I boarded out tinkerer, four thorns and three incinerators for three mad aunties, one goblin king, and four chalices.)

Match four:
vs Stifle-naught

Again a deck piloted by another member of my team, Anthony Cuevas, who was undefeated up to this point. We tie so he can make it to the top four, but play it out as we have nothing else to do. Game one he has no answer to turn one lackey (save for stifle) and I know this, so when lackey resolves, I pretty much have the win for game one.

Game two he lands an early dreadnought with me only having a vial at one on the board. I move vial up to two, drop matron fetching tinkerer, and activate vial (no stifle) to put tinkerer on the board before his draw. He swings in for 11, and I untap and kill dreadnaught. His only way to win after a tinkerer is on the board is trinket mage, and I soundly pummel him with little red guys.

On a side note I must stress how imperitive it is to include the often-overlooked tinkerer in the side (or preferably main) of any (save for possible RG as tin-street is superior so long as chief isnt on the board.) build. Tinkerer is a house against needles on vial, e-explosives (with warchief, otherwise, serves as a deterant) and jitte, as well as wrecking other random artifacts, such a dreadnaughts and vials in the mirror.

Semi-finals:

I'm paired against Kyle Paster again, and he scoops me in to the finals as he kows that he, myself, and Anthony are all in the top four, and thresh has major problems dealing with counter-top (in addition to all the normal counters and the 11/11 trampler) as well as thorn, thoughtsieze, and quads auntie + mountainwalking King. Anthony wins his match against Junk deck (GWB with confidant, goyf, deed, StP, Vindi, Hymn, ect) and we play again in the finals.

Finals:

We decide once again, to play it out for the experience. Game one is mine thanks to being on the play and a turn one vial that invalidated his balance. (retrospectivly, a balance on the draw against goblins is pretty weak and he should have thrown it back) Post-boards, I drop my thorns and incinerators for the pump-suite as well as two cashsiezes and an additional tinkerer, who comes down early and ensures the win. Anthony and I pool our store credit and I pick up my Berserk out of the case and call it a night.

Sidenotes:

In the hours before the tournament, I also tested against Anthony's TES deck, and we determined that after Thron MB, goblins does stand a chance against storm-based combo, and game one was sligtly in his favor due to his three (!!) copies of EtW MB and, (go figure) goblins can't deal with 10-14 little red guys on turn one/two. Games two and three improve considerably due to all the board-hate, including chalcie and cashseize. Sharpshooter also discouraged him from going with the goblin plan unless he could get them on turn one or two (though we found two was too late in one game with chief and sharp in hand (not likely, but it happens))

I played against Junk.dec, and won soundly due to the card advantage of ringleader/matron/wort. I had a chief on the board with lethal via a driver facing down a deed, and simply played a matron via vial , and made him pop the deed, afterwards playing my matron-fetched wort. The games were similar to playing against a back-peddling burn deck, where his deck couldnt draw/play answers to my deck nearly fast enough.

[Drossie]

I've tested de Thorn also MD this weekend with a positive result.
Did you win with the black splash you would lose with an other splash?
I'm still not sure about which color to splash...

[Media314r8]

Against BGW junk deck I believe that black was the key factor that allowed me to put as much pressure as I did on the opponent while being able to recover from deed so quickly. Wort reviving matron to fetch driver after a wrath effect is absolutly amazing.

Against Rifter and Thresh, preboards I think that the black spash was about on level footing with the white. I really only see Crib swap being in the main in a Rw build, and tutorable swap would have ended the goyf/tividar problem, but a living wish for a tividar whom I crib swap'ed would be embarassing. Slide also would have protected his tividar if I had tried it again. I personally preffer Rb post-boards, as thoughtsieze and a full set of Mad Aunties make a lot more of a difference than what the white side has to offer. (rule of law or seal of cleansing I presume, as I've played the white splash pre-lorwyn)

I think thorn is really the card that brings R (whatever splash) goblins up to snuff, as it doesnt effect goblins in the least, (save for dropping a second vial for 2 or a second thorn for 3) and it slows other decks immensly (daze and FoW are no longer free counters, as the thorn gives spells an additional cost, and does not effect their CMC, which the pitch cost replaces paying)

[Drossie]

Against BGW junk deck I believe that black was the key factor that allowed me to put as much pressure as I did on the opponent while being able to recover from deed so quickly. Wort reviving matron to fetch driver after a wrath effect is absolutly amazing.

Against Rifter and Thresh, preboards I think that the black spash was about on level footing with the white. I really only see Crib swap being in the main in a Rw build, and tutorable swap would have ended the goyf/tividar problem, but a living wish for a tividar whom I crib swap'ed would be embarassing. Slide also would have protected his tividar if I had tried it again. I personally preffer Rb post-boards, as thoughtsieze and a full set of Mad Aunties make a lot more of a difference than what the white side has to offer. (rule of law or seal of cleansing I presume, as I've played the white splash pre-lorwyn)

I think thorn is really the card that brings R (whatever splash) goblins up to snuff, as it doesnt effect goblins in the least, (save for dropping a second vial for 2 or a second thorn for 3) and it slows other decks immensly (daze and FoW are no longer free counters, as the thorn gives spells an additional cost, and does not effect their CMC, which the pitch cost replaces paying)

Have you ever played the green splash?
This is my build now:
Do you think your build is better?

4x Æther Vial
4x Thorn of Amethyst

3x Gempalm Incinerator
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Matron
4x Goblin Piledriver
4x Goblin Ringleader
1x Goblin Sharpshooter
4x Goblin Warchief
3x Mogg Fanatic
2x Siege-Gang Commander
1x Tin Street Hooligan

3x Wooded Foothills
3x Bloodstained Mire
4x Mountain
4x Taiga
4x Wasteland
4x Rishadan Port

SIDEBOARD
4x Pithing Needle
3x Tormod’s Crypt
1x Goblin King
4x Krosan Grip
3x Pyrokinesis

[Media314r8]

I've played the green splash before back when affinity was a DTB and you'd run into more goblin mirror matches than thresh decks. I am not that big a fan of tin street outside of extended (he allways hit a signet or something) as with him as a one-of, if you plan on killing an artifact, you have to not play him until you see the art in question, and then if you have warchief out he doesnt even do that. I don't think that grip is any better than seal of primordium in the SB, as primordium kills standstill, and you dont have to keep mana open to wait for whatever threat you fear.

I think the black splash contributes much more than the green, and with affinity even less frequently seen than goblins, I feel that the Rw build is now even superior to the green splash. White offers RFG and killing things that have pro-red/black, while the black offers hand disruption, card advantage, and Mad Auntie, the best thing you can see in the goblins mirror.

I think your sideboard needs updating. I ran pyrokenises back in the day with Rw and Rg goblins, as it was good in the mirror and against some affinity builds. Now, you'd be lucky if you could two-for one yourself to even kill one goyf with it. I'd pass. 4 Needles is at least one too many, and I dont see any SB solutions to combo decks, which is one of goblins' hardest matchups. Better pray for turn one lackey on the play into a turn two thorn and siege-gang if you're up against combo. a single tutorable sharpshooter would at least give you a chance against EtW tokens. Thorn is good, but it helps to have more than JUST thorn to fight combo (it gives you anywhere from 1-3 turns against them , but if you dont have a lackey, they'll probably still roll you over even with one thorn. You can't mull into thorn, lackey every time, so I'd suggest some chalices/leylines/pyro pillar SB to handle combo.

I don't like the eight colorless lands in a two-color goblins build, as if you lose/dont see vial you WILL have to hardcast warcheif, and if he hits a turn late, that can be GG. Keep in mind, after warchief is out there, you'll often want to be using RR or RRR each turn with all your matron/ringleader shennanagins. Port, IMO, belongs in Mono-Red or prision sytle goblins builds only.

My $.02

[Drossie]

I've played the green splash before back when affinity was a DTB and you'd run into more goblin mirror matches than thresh decks. I am not that big a fan of tin street outside of extended (he allways hit a signet or something) as with him as a one-of, if you plan on killing an artifact, you have to not play him until you see the art in question, and then if you have warchief out he doesnt even do that. I don't think that grip is any better than seal of primordium in the SB, as primordium kills standstill, and you dont have to keep mana open to wait for whatever threat you fear.

I think the black splash contributes much more than the green, and with affinity even less frequently seen than goblins, I feel that the Rw build is now even superior to the green splash. White offers RFG and killing things that have pro-red/black, while the black offers hand disruption, card advantage, and Mad Auntie, the best thing you can see in the goblins mirror.

I think your sideboard needs updating. I ran pyrokenises back in the day with Rw and Rg goblins, as it was good in the mirror and against some affinity builds. Now, you'd be lucky if you could two-for one yourself to even kill one goyf with it. I'd pass. 4 Needles is at least one too many, and I dont see any SB solutions to combo decks, which is one of goblins' hardest matchups. Better pray for turn one lackey on the play into a turn two thorn and siege-gang if you're up against combo. a single tutorable sharpshooter would at least give you a chance against EtW tokens. Thorn is good, but it helps to have more than JUST thorn to fight combo (it gives you anywhere from 1-3 turns against them , but if you dont have a lackey, they'll probably still roll you over even with one thorn. You can't mull into thorn, lackey every time, so I'd suggest some chalices/leylines/pyro pillar SB to handle combo.

I don't like the eight colorless lands in a two-color goblins build, as if you lose/dont see vial you WILL have to hardcast warcheif, and if he hits a turn late, that can be GG. Keep in mind, after warchief is out there, you'll often want to be using RR or RRR each turn with all your matron/ringleader shennanagins. Port, IMO, belongs in Mono-Red or prision sytle goblins builds only.

My $.02

I know I have to update my SB. I think I wrote it down in the other Goblinthread. What would you play in SB? Chalice?
I admit I think the Black splash is better then my build, but I have no Badlands/Thoughtseize AND no budget to buy them...

[diffy]

Why does everybody want to play Thorn of Amethyst? You play black, so you clearly have access to better disruption.

This is the build we've been developing here for ages and which was given a great boost by Lorwyn.

This list just top2ed at our monthly Legacy Event.



// Mainboard (60 cards)
// Lands
4 Bloodstained Mire (http://magiccards.info/on/en/313.html)
4 Wooded Foothills (http://magiccards.info/on/en/330.html)
2 Taiga (http://magiccards.info/al/en/292.html)
4 Badlands (http://magiccards.info/al/en/277.html)
1 Blood Crypt (http://magiccards.info/di/en/171.html)
4 Rishadan Port (http://magiccards.info/mm/en/324.html)
4 Wasteland (http://magiccards.info/tp/en/340.html)

// Creatures
4 Gempalm Incinerator (http://magiccards.info/le/en/94.html)
4 Goblin Lackey (http://magiccards.info/us/en/190.html)
4 Goblin Piledriver (http://magiccards.info/on/en/205.html)
4 Goblin Matron (http://magiccards.info/us/en/191.html)
4 Goblin Warchief (http://magiccards.info/sc/en/97.html)
4 Goblin Ringleader (http://magiccards.info/ap/en/62.html)
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/252.html)
1 Boggart Mob (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/104.html)
3 Siege-Gang Commander (http://magiccards.info/sc/en/103.html)

// Spells
4 AEther Vial (http://magiccards.info/ds/en/91.html)
4 Cabal Therapy (http://magiccards.info/fnmp/en/60.html)

// Sideboard (15 cards)
4 Snuff Out (http://magiccards.info/mm/en/162.html)
4 Duress (http://magiccards.info/us/en/132.html)
4 Pernicious Deed (http://magiccards.info/ap/en/114.html)
2 Krosan Grip (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/202.html)
1 Goblin King (http://magiccards.info/al/en/155.html)


This deck went through a lot of incarnations, previously featuring Stingscourger (http://magiccards.info/pc/en/107.html) as a way to remove Tarmogoyf temporarly or permanently with Cabal Therapy.
Cabal Therapy generally speaking is awesome as it gives you a way to push your bombs through and gives you an additional first turn spell.
This list obviously isn't tuned for the mirror. As less and less people actually play Goblins in tournaments so I think that it is safe to sacrifise some of the mirror power towards generally better matchups.

It would be awesome to fit some Fanatics into the built, but I don't see how you could do that... if you have an idea, please post it.

Feel free to comment/criticise

[Drossie]

Why does everybody want to play Thorn of Amethyst? You play black, so you clearly have access to better disruption.

This is the build we've been developing here for ages and which was given a great boost by Lorwyn.

This list just top2ed at our monthly Legacy Event.



// Mainboard (60 cards)
// Lands
4 Bloodstained Mire (http://magiccards.info/on/en/313.html)
4 Wooded Foothills (http://magiccards.info/on/en/330.html)
2 Taiga (http://magiccards.info/al/en/292.html)
4 Badlands (http://magiccards.info/al/en/277.html)
1 Blood Crypt (http://magiccards.info/di/en/171.html)
4 Rishadan Port (http://magiccards.info/mm/en/324.html)
4 Wasteland (http://magiccards.info/tp/en/340.html)

// Creatures
4 Gempalm Incinerator (http://magiccards.info/le/en/94.html)
4 Goblin Lackey (http://magiccards.info/us/en/190.html)
4 Goblin Piledriver (http://magiccards.info/on/en/205.html)
4 Goblin Matron (http://magiccards.info/us/en/191.html)
4 Goblin Warchief (http://magiccards.info/sc/en/97.html)
4 Goblin Ringleader (http://magiccards.info/ap/en/62.html)
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/252.html)
1 Boggart Mob (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/104.html)
3 Siege-Gang Commander (http://magiccards.info/sc/en/103.html)

// Spells
4 AEther Vial (http://magiccards.info/ds/en/91.html)
4 Cabal Therapy (http://magiccards.info/fnmp/en/60.html)

// Sideboard (15 cards)
4 Snuff Out (http://magiccards.info/mm/en/162.html)
4 Duress (http://magiccards.info/us/en/132.html)
4 Pernicious Deed (http://magiccards.info/ap/en/114.html)
2 Krosan Grip (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/202.html)
1 Goblin King (http://magiccards.info/al/en/155.html)


This deck went through a lot of incarnations, previously featuring Stingscourger (http://magiccards.info/pc/en/107.html) as a way to remove Tarmogoyf temporarly or permanently with Cabal Therapy.
Cabal Therapy generally speaking is awesome as it gives you a way to push your bombs through and gives you an additional first turn spell.
This list obviously isn't tuned for the mirror. As less and less people actually play Goblins in tournaments so I think that it is safe to sacrifise some of the mirror power towards generally better matchups.

It would be awesome to fit some Fanatics into the built, but I don't see how you could do that... if you have an idea, please post it.

Feel free to comment/criticise

My thougts:
No basic Mountains? No good! YOur deck is to vulnerable to wastelands. You have to play at least 4 Mountains.
3 SGC? I think it's one too much.
Nothing against decks who use GY? I suggest to play planar void in SB.
2 Krosan Grip? Maybe one to less...

[diffy]

No basic Mountains? No good! Your deck is too vulnerable to wastelands. You have to play at least 4 Mountains.

That's a consession you have to make to reliably be able to cast Cabal Therapy/Duress on your first turn... that's the only way you're going to beat combo.
Also, no one plays Wasteland except for yourself... and you have AEther Vial/Goblin Lackey to fight dedicated mana denial strategies.



3 SGC? I think it's one too much.

No way you're cuttig a Siege-Gang Comander.... he's like the only goblin that creates wins out of nowhere (read the topdeck mode).



Nothing against decks who use GY? I suggest to play planar void in SB.

It's a possible inclusion if your meta is high on Cephalid Breakfast/Ichorid combo, but even then I'd rather play Leyline of the Void because of its uncounterability/comming down on t0.
For the Ichorid matchup, you always have Snuff Out to kill your own guys to rfg the opposing bridges. Oh, and Snuff Out is awesome in the Breakfast Matchup too as it acts as disruption or 'kill target Tarmogoyf'.



2 Krosan Grip? Maybe one to less...

Goblin King is Krosan Grip n°3 really. He has the same purpose neutering an Engineered Plague but comes in handy in other Matchups as well (NQG/r, fast combo, mirror etc).

[Duckphat_pie]

May I ask why Mogg Fanatic always seems to be the first one to get cut from all of these lists? He seems like such a great creature to have against so many decks, like Ichorid, breakfast or other aggro decks that run small creatures

[diffy]

May I ask why Mogg Fanatic always seems to be the first one to get cut from all of these lists? He seems like such a great creature to have against so many decks, like Ichorid, breakfast or other aggro decks that run small creatures

It's always a tough call because, as you pointed out, Mogg Fanatic is great against combo (irony, oh irony), but you have start cutting somewhere.
As the Fanatic isn't influencing the game state enough in the other matchups (in my opinion), I cut him.
As the Fanatic isn't all that great a topdeck, I cut him.
As the Fanatic is not good against NQG, I cut him.
As the Fanatic is goog against good matchups (think Fish), I cut him.

Somewhere, the list above really replaced Fanatic with Cabal Therapy so that you actually have the same virtual amount of 'disruption' against Breakfast/Ichorid (Therapy is still awesome on the play naming Breakthrough/LED), so it doesn't really make that much difference except for having a better card in other matchups.

[Cait_Sith]

// Lands
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [MM] Mountain (1)
1 [TE] Swamp (4)
4 [B] Badlands
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
3 [LRW] Mad Auntie
3 [10E] Mogg Fanatic
2 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
1 [LRW] Wort, Boggart Auntie
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [P2] Goblin Matron
4 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [US] Goblin Lackey

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize

Is what I am testing. The SB is not yet done.

In this meta, I'd rather have Fanatic over Piledriver, since Control can still bite it hard anyway, but an out against Ichorid is always hot.

[Eldariel]

What's up with the Goblin-thread not being used for Goblin-discussion? On another note, what's up with everyone dropping all MD artifact removal? Do you expect only Gro all rounds? Also, why would you drop Mogg Fanatics before Gempalms? It's not like Gempalms kill anything important before you've either won or lost against Gro anyways, and Fanatic does at least as much against Breakfast and control. Extended lists for a similar meta ran a single Gempalm.

The reason Legacy-versions used to run full 4 is that Goblin mirror was so common, but that simply doesn't appear to be the case anymore, since people have for a reason or another abandoned the deck instead of modding it to beat the meta. Against anything but the mirror or small-critter beatdown decks, Gempalm is a card you simply don't need until midgame when you can get it at will anyways. I think Mogg War Marshal and Stingscourger simply need to be given more consideration than they presently are as they answer different problems than Gempalm and those problems just may be more relevant right now. Also, Fatlins are a fairly strong answer to fat problems, so I think at least metas which see lots of Gro should consider 2-3 MD.

Oh, and an aside:

Game two I get crazy-go-nuts hand with turn one lackey, turn two swing in and drop siege-gang, play driver, turn three play sledder, swing for infinite. He cant keep up, and he futily wishes for (but cant play) a tividar his turn three only to dies on my turn four. Yippee for lackey brokenness.

Am I missing something or why didn't you just kill turn 3? Lackey>Pile-Gang is the archetypal turn 3 kill; swing for 1, swing for 17 with 11/2 Pile and 6 points of Goblins, swing a token to the face.


Vs mono-blue modded Faerie-stompy.

He is playing a literal faerie stompy without drakes, but with every annoying faerie ever printed, including two maindeck 1/1 pr reds, and four 2/1 pro-reds. He also has tap-down champion faerie, cloud, ect.

That quite sounds like a simple tribal Faerie-deck rather than Faerie Stompy, since Faerie Stompy plays heavy equipment-box and Chalice, which are the archetypal features along with the manabase. From the sound of it, that deck played none of the above.

[TrialByFire]

Also, no one plays Wasteland except for yourself...

You are sadly misaken my friend, if you think goblins is the only deck that runs Wasteland. I play it in every deck I make.

[Media314r8]

thorn is better than thoughtsieze/cabal therapy IMO, as often against TES (goblins worst combo-matchup) my opponent brainstorms in response to the sorcery-discard. Thus, I usually only hit a single ana accelerator (and TES runs plenty) A hand-disruption or two cand TES can still go off just as fast (perhaps not with lethal tendrils, but 10-14 golbins will usually get the job done. Thorn guarenteed buys your anywhere from 1-3 turns, as their mana aceel is uselass with thorn in play, (save to up their storm count) and they usually spend a turn or two burning wishing for a spree to kill it. Thorn also costs you no life and is a better topdeck vs random decks than a discard spell. IMO, thorn belongs in the main, discard belongs in the side.

[Media314r8]

I admit I think the Black splash is better then my build, but I have no Badlands/Thoughtseize AND no budget to buy them...

If you dont have the budget to play duals and good discard, stick to a mono-white angel stompy or a combo deck. Playing legacy should not involve playing inferior decks becasue of money/card constraints. If money is a problem, constructed probably isnt where you belong. Try limited: no matter how the meta shifts, its still just $12 a draft.

[cann0nfodder]

As a TES Player I strongly agree that Thorn is stronger than discard in the combo match up especially in game one.

The reasons are simple, firstly brainstorm is usually main decked in TES, Iggy Pop and High Tide and a brainstorm in response to a discard spell is usually sufficient to protect a combo player. Also, even if you do take a card from a TES player such as a tutor, the TES player still has 7 more tutors, a couple copies of Empty the Warrens, a copy of Diminishing returns and a copy of Ill-Gotten Gains somewhere in his library that can win the game for them. This means that if the combo player can see one of his 11 or 12 cards then he might still win against a lone discard spell. However, if you play a single thorn then the TES player must burning wish for 2r and then shattering spree it for 1r. This play takes a 4 of in hand and a whopping total of 3rr before your opponent can even think about combing, playing across from a thron of amethyst is often more like trying to get around a train wreck than a speed bump.

[diffy]

So, I decided that Goblins might not be a bad deck now that it top8ed twice on TMLopen... it seems to have droped of the radar.
People seem to pack less hate so that it might just have a time where it can perform well again.

I revisited my list, mainly essuing the Cabal Therapies to the sideboard as they just feel too underpowered outside of the combo matchup. You really need something to remove Tarmogoyf in my opinion.
As the black splash offers some very strong additions to the main (mainly Wort, Boggart Auntie) and the much needed elements for the combo matchup (discard + clock is lethal) for the sideboard, I decided to keep that splash and not to add any other one because the other colors you might want to splash are just so underwhelming. White has Swords to Plowshares, which you can simply replace by any other black removal. Green has Tin Street Hooligan which isn't needed in the main anymore, now that you don't face that many mirrors. For Krosan Grip in the sideboard, I prefer to play Engineered Explosives because they are more versatile.

Here's my new list:



// Maindeck (60 cards)
// Lands
4 Bloodstained Mire (http://magiccards.info/on/en/313.html)
4 Wooded Foothills (http://magiccards.info/on/en/330.html)
4 Rishadan Port (http://magiccards.info/mm/en/324.html)
3 Wasteland (http://magiccards.info/tp/en/340.html)
4 Badlands (http://magiccards.info/al/en/277.html)
3 Blood Crypt (http://magiccards.info/di/en/171.html)
1 Volcanic Island (http://magiccards.info/be/en/302.html)

// Creatures
3 Mogg Fanatic (http://magiccards.info/tp/en/190.html)
4 Goblin Lackey (http://magiccards.info/us/en/190.html)
4 Goblin Piledriver (http://magiccards.info/on/en/205.html)
1 Gempalm Incinerator (http://magiccards.info/le/en/94.html)
4 Goblin Matron (http://magiccards.info/us/en/191.html)
4 Goblin Warchief (http://magiccards.info/sc/en/97.html)
4 Goblin Ringleader (http://magiccards.info/ap/en/62.html)
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/252.html)
3 Siege-Gang Commander (http://magiccards.info/sc/en/103.html)

// Spells
4 AEther Vial (http://magiccards.info/ds/en/91.html)
1 Terminate (http://magiccards.info/ps/en/128.html)
3 Smother (http://magiccards.info/on/en/170.html)
1 Patriarch's Bidding (http://magiccards.info/on/en/161.html)

// Sideboard (15 cards)
4 Duress (http://magiccards.info/us/en/132.html)
4 Cabal Therapy (http://magiccards.info/fnmp/en/60.html)
4 Thoughtseize (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/145.html)
3 Engineered Explosives (http://magiccards.info/5dn/en/118.html)


The mana base is built to have a stable access to black mana in the first two turns of the game which is essential if you want to push a Lackey through (removing an opposing threat via Smother/Terminate) or post-board to be able to disrupt your combo opponent from turn 1 on.
I still refuse to play basics in Goblins. If your oponent wastes his tempo destroying your lands, fine, be it. You should be happy in that case and continue swinging/ramping up your AEther Vial. Remember, you are the one who wants to disrupt the opponent, so he won't use his resources to try to counter-disrupt you because that would actually help your gameplan. Also, with 7-8 colorless sources in the deck, you really have to worry about access to red and black mana in the early game (especially post-board to play a disruption piece against combo on turn 1).
For the Goblins, I chose not to play a full set of Gempalm Incinerators because they don't really remove anything anymore. You need a ton of Goblins to kill a Tarmogoyf and if you have a ton of Goblins on the table, you should be winning anyways so it seems a little win more. One has to stay though that you have a tutorable removal spell for Matron (allthough Crib Swap might be better if you decide to splah white).
The Terminate/Smother split is there because Terminate is just the better removal spell in the lategame, but you don't have access to red and black mana reliably on turn 2 do you'd better have an alternative for the early game. Also, I like the cmc2 removals better than something like Ghastly Demise or Vendetta because they can't reliably remove a Tarmogoyf on turn 2.
The lone Patriarch's Bidding is there as a fourth Siege-Gang, as a bomb that just wins you the game if it resolves. I'm not set on this slot yet, but in theory it looks nice. I'll come back on it when I have more results to back it up. Edit: From my first limited testing I can tell that Bidding basically sits in your hand until you're in a bad position. It forces mulligans, but if you're in the better board position, you don't need another bomb anyways. It greately helps to recover from any form of sweepers (Pyrocalsm, Wrath of God etc) though and is the best topdeck you can have in the late game

In the sideboard, you have a massive discard package which should be enough to have a fighting chance in the combo matchup. I still like a massive cmc1 discard package to fight combo because it comes down a turn earlier. The speed gained by the discard in addition to the fast clock you put your opponent on should be enough.
Engineered Explosives are there to be boarded in nearly every matchup. Basically you replace the weaker cards in any matchup with these. They are very flexible and offer an answer to multiple Engineered Plagues, Pithing Needles, Umezawa's Jittes etc.

[Media314r8]

@Freund: Bidding and terminate/smother effects seem awful in goblins. You literally have no way/hope of beating combo pre-boards... isn't that (and wort) the reason to splash black in the first place? Post-boards you bring in 12 pieces of combo hate and (i assume) board out your removal and perhaps vials? You should understand that 12 discard spells wont guarantee you beat combo games two and three. (which you need too, as aside from TES fizzling, I dont see you winning game 1... ever.) Each discard spell simply slows them down a turn, but they also slow you down a turn. (unless you forgo turn one duress on the play game two in favor of turn one lackey, and with your games record 0-1, I see turn one duress/CT more likely) Things such as chalice and thorn are better here as they allow you to set them and keep swinging instead of dedicating colored mana each turn to stave off the combo player. Goblins can often eat TES game two on the pay with "chalice for 0, lackey, go," as TES then has to burning wish for a spree/hull breach to kill the vial. (that or replace their moxen, petals, and LEDs with other mana accel) 12 discard spells seem like a poor solution to beating combo, and at the same time, are likely 12 slots that serve little other purpose (and I know you're gonna say "board in CT and seize vs thresh", well what are you taking out? goyf-kill? Goblins?!?)

In short, the MB/SB black choices seem poor.

[Drossie]

@Freund: Bidding and terminate/smother effects seem awful in goblins. You literally have no way/hope of beating combo pre-boards... isn't that (and wort) the reason to splash black in the first place? Post-boards you bring in 12 pieces of combo hate and (i assume) board out your removal and perhaps vials? You should understand that 12 discard spells wont guarantee you beat combo games two and three. (which you need too, as aside from TES fizzling, I dont see you winning game 1... ever.) Each discard spell simply slows them down a turn, but they also slow you down a turn. (unless you forgo turn one duress on the play game two in favor of turn one lackey, and with your games record 0-1, I see turn one duress/CT more likely) Things such as chalice and thorn are better here as they allow you to set them and keep swinging instead of dedicating colored mana each turn to stave off the combo player. Goblins can often eat TES game two on the pay with "chalice for 0, lackey, go," as TES then has to burning wish for a spree/hull breach to kill the vial. (that or replace their moxen, petals, and LEDs with other mana accel) 12 discard spells seem like a poor solution to beating combo, and at the same time, are likely 12 slots that serve little other purpose (and I know you're gonna say "board in CT and seize vs thresh", well what are you taking out? goyf-kill? Goblins?!?)

In short, the MB/SB black choices seem poor.

Indeed. I haven't seen a black build who gives a surplus if you compare with the green splash.
I play Thorn MD now, I think it's the best option against combo. I still think the green splash is superior to the other...

4x Æther Vial
4x Thorn of Amethyst

3x Gempalm Incinerator
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Matron
4x Goblin Piledriver
4x Goblin Ringleader
1x Goblin Sharpshooter
4x Goblin Warchief
3x Mogg Fanatic
2x Siege-Gang Commander
1x Tin Street Hooligan

3x Wooded Foothills
3x Bloodstained Mire
4x Mountain
4x Taiga
4x Wasteland
4x Rishadan Port

[The Legacy Weapon]

It would be awesome to fit some Fanatics into the built, but I don't see how you could do that... if you have an idea, please post it.

I think that the Fanatics should be in the sideboard and not in the main. I really don't think you need pernicious deed so that's what I would cut for these. Just side in the Fanatics in place of the Gempalms when you fight Dredge decks.

[DURESSyou92]

i would take out lackeys over piledrivers

[TrialByFire]

i would take out lackeys over piledrivers

He is clearly drunk and confused. Lackey is the most broken turn 1 play the deck has, and if they don't answer it, you usually win (unless you suck)

[DURESSyou92]

maybe a little drunk but it seems that whenever i play a lackey its either a daze or a STP or mongoose or fanatic or some other fagget counter spell

[J.V.]

Dralnu's Crusade?
Cabal Therapy?
Thorn of Amethyst?

[ClearSkies]

maybe a little drunk but it seems that whenever i play a lackey its either a daze or a STP or mongoose or fanatic or some other fagget counter spell

Wouldn't that just show how important is it to get an answer for it?

[DURESSyou92]

ur right, but that would require a main thoughseize/duress, and it seems like u guys have thme only in ur sb. so ur just playing mono red golblins untill u verse combo and u put in 12 discard spells?
it think it be better to have 4 thoughtseize main and 4 therapy sb (no duress) .

SB

4x engeneered explosives
4x cabal Therapy
4x leyline of the void
3x terminate (for goyfs)

fanatics should stay main as a less of, by the way