[Article] Unlocking Legacy - Testing (and Hyping) Lorwyn

[Zach Tartell]

Link! (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/14928.html)


"Next to the originator of a good sentence is the first quoter of it. Many will read the book before one thinks of quoting a passage. As soon as he has done this, that line will be quoted east and west."
Ralph Waldo Emerson

Lorwyn cards are legal now, and it seems like no one cares. Newer sets tend to have less of an impact on Legacy rather than older sets. Future Sight brought us the format sweeping Tarmogoyf, so Lorwyn is a letdown by comparison. Personally I tend to find the sets like Lorwyn more intriguing for Legacy. Anyone can get a new enabler like Mind's Desire and build a Tendrils deck around it. I greatly enjoy trying to find new ways to tweak small increments of value out of new cards (or even just cards no one else is using). I've been going through Lorwyn looking for cards that are better than people give them credit, based on the experiences I picked up looking at other formats and judging. I also put some of the new Lorwyn cards to the test in Goblins.

[TeenieBopper]

For fucks sake, that goblins list is terrible.

Look, people, there are like four people on the face of the planet who know how Goblins works and how to build a good goblins deck. Knock it the fuck off.

[Bardo]

For fucks sake, that goblins list is terrible.

Look, people, there are like four people on the face of the planet who know how Goblins works and how to build a good goblins deck. Knock it the fuck off.

Deck design is of one of the key selling points about this format. The Pros are not making our decks, if you know what I mean. If someone, say Kevin, wants to put out a Goblin deck, it should not have to be annointed by anyone.

[Anusien]

For fucks sake, that goblins list is terrible.
Well yeah, that's sort of the point. I read Coppola's article, and while I disagreed with all the Boggart Mobs, I wanted to test Thorn and Wort. I did and drew some results. One of them was, "Yeah, Thorn isn't good here even though everyone says it is." I go on to suggest some other changes. I think Goblins in its current incarnation is sub-optimal, seeing as how it's no longer owning the format. I may work with some people and come up with a more radical list and see how it goes. I have some other failed experiments that I think have some useful data too.

[BreathWeapon]

It was an alright article, I think Shriekmaw has a lot of potential in control like Landstill or Tog, but Smother is shit loads better than Ghastly Demise or Vendetta in anything.

Baruuk belongs in a mana ramping deck, where his untap two lands ability is sick with Tomb/City and Boseiju and the Bears can ward off aggro. He's not the worst card in Landstill either since it allows Landstill to pile on the pressure with its man lands, untap CIP man lands, ditch man lands for Bears altogether or overrun the board with both, all while keeping Counterspell mana open.

[Happy Gilmore]

I kept waiting to find something that stuck out as being speculative and I am happy to say I can't find anything wrong with the article, well done. It seams like you actually did some testing with the decks and instead of proposing radical new deck ideas you gave individual card choices that spark some train of thought. Using a tournament deck to illistrate your point, and testing agaisnt the major decks of the format goes a long way towards building your credibility.

regarding your goblins list:

I agree with you that only may 1 wort and maybe one mob could fit in goblins due to mana constraints. I think you might just want to make one change to the list though.
-1 Gempalm
+1 Fanatic

Fanatic is more affective against Breakfast than Gempalm simply because its cheaper, and better in the Ichorid matchup.

Regarding Thorn of Amythyst:
I find it to be prity lack luster against Thresh, but against combo its amazing. The other option that seems more realistic is running Cabal Therapy in the main, which addresses more matchups. And running Thorn SB.

[MattH]

I told Kevin this last night but I'll repeat it here: Ajani is wayyy better than Garruk in goblins. If goblins were to run any planeswalker (a BIG 'if'), the white one is it. Just cash him in ASAP for four Crusades and ignore the stupid lifegain and token abilities.

[Happy Gilmore]

I spoke too soon.

One problem with the article. For the love of God stop quoting dead people!

[frogboy]

One problem with the article. For the love of God stop quoting dead people!

"Basic truths cannot change and once a man of insight expresses one of them it is never necessary, no matter how much the world changes, to reformulate them."

Robert Heinlein.

[Anusien]

I spoke too soon.

One problem with the article. For the love of God stop quoting dead people!
:P I'm actually running out of good material in my quotefile that applies. Find me good quotes by live people and I'll use it.

Also, I constantly have to go back and check to see if I've used a particular quote before.

[Bardo]

:P I'm actually running out of good material in my quotefile that applies. Find me good quotes by live people and I'll use it.

Also, I constantly have to go back and check to see if I've used a particular quote before.

Good article, Kevin. Well done.

But I think my quotefile.txt is larger than yours. I have no idea how to make much innuendo out of that without sounding gay, so I'll just stop while I'm only vaguely behind. Cheers.

Edit - Damnit!

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

"Most quotations are either worthless, incorrectly attributed, or fabricated." - Orville Redenbacher

edit:

Re: Boseiju - Why not find 60 good cards to go with it and run Living Wish?

[Moczoc]

Shriekmaw is indeed a very powerful card. The reason why nobody plays him is that decks that plays black mostly include Dark Confidant who forbids you to play spells >3-4 conv. mana cost. :eek:

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Shriekmaw is indeed a very powerful card. The reason why nobody plays him is that decks that plays black mostly include Dark Confidant who forbids you to play spells >3-4 conv. mana cost. :eek:

Yeah, and that can be a problematic mindset. While Shriekmaw is only making a small splash at the moment, I think that it will gain importance over time. Perhaps not as a deck's only piece of removal, but certainly to complement existing removal strategies. Versatility is a huge factor in playability, and Shriemaw has versatility up the wazoo. :smile:

One other card from Lorwyn that isn't getting any love at all, but which could actually have a fair impact is Bramble Horns. Flash makes it pretty impressive. And yes, I salivate at the thought of recursion. :wink:

[thefreakaccident]

Yeah, and that can be a problematic mindset. While Shriekmaw is only making a small splash at the moment, I think that it will gain importance over time. Perhaps not as a deck's only piece of removal, but certainly to complement existing removal strategies. Versatility is a huge factor in playability, and Shriemaw has versatility up the wazoo.


Yeah, like this card is new or anything... read terror.

It does the same thing, can be played with confidant quite comfortably, and is still terrible because it cannot kill black creatures or artifact creatures... therefore it is not all that great.. the only deck (and I mean only) that can use it is survival... besides that I wold say no to putting it in anything.

[Barook]

It does the same thing, can be played with confidant quite comfortably, and is still terrible because it cannot kill black creatures or artifact creatures... therefore it is not all that great.. the only deck (and I mean only) that can use it is survival... besides that I wold say no to putting it in anything.

Just asking - what other black creatures besides Bob are seeing play right now which aren't crap in the current, goyf-infested meta (like Negator)? :confused: Same goes for artifact creatures - Affinity isn't bad, but not that much played and Mishra's Factory is hard to hit with sorcery speed removal anyway.

[Cait_Sith]

This is probably my favorite article of your by far. I've been trying to find a place of the Walkers in Legacy, simply because they are all houses in Standard. The real trouble is finding a deck that can use them properly. I am trying Black Landstill with Liliana now, since she can really grind your opponent to a halt, as well as tutor up needed cards at will. (Dodging Deed is awesome too).

Wort is VERY hot in Goblins, I must agree.

On the article itself: I like the fact you have dealt with subjects that didn't already get beat to death. To see even moderately new material presented well is always a small joy.

[Anusien]

Thanks for the feedback, guys. Telling me what you liked and didn't like helps me write more articles that you like. It seems like you all want a balance of strategy and theorizing.

Remember, mailbag stuff, article suggestions can go to me any way you can flip a bit (AIM, e-mail, PM).

[Wallace]

I spoke too soon.

One problem with the article. For the love of God stop quoting dead people!

FIRE AND ICE - a poem by Robert Frost

Some say the world will end in fire,
Some say in ice.
From what I've tasted of desire
I hold with those who favour fire.
But if it had to perish twice,
I think I know enough of hate
To say that for destruction ice
Is also great
And would suffice.

Is this not your sig.? Is Robert Frost not dead?"

[Happy Gilmore]

Is this not your sig.? Is Robert Frost not dead?"

Am I writing a Legacy article? I didn't say never quote. God knows my thesis papers in college would be pretty bad if I didn't quote. But we are not writing thesis papers as far as I know. No renowned scholars are experts in MTG. Therefore, stop quoting them!

[Anusien]

No renowned scholars are experts in MTG. Therefore, stop quoting them!
My quotes are 75% another approach on the current topic, and 25% cool quotes. Failure to learn lessons from history = game loss. Even though you're not using swords, you should read Art of War, etc etc.

[Nightmare]

I use pertinant quotes to start every one of my articles. It's good to parallel this game to real life.

[etrigan]

Am I writing a Legacy article? I didn't say never quote. God knows my thesis papers in college would be pretty bad if I didn't quote. But we are not writing thesis papers as far as I know. No renowned scholars are experts in MTG. Therefore, stop quoting them!


"I am become death, the destroyer of worlds. "
-J. Robert Oppenheimer

He was talking about Black-splash Ernham-geddon.

[Obfuscate Freely]

If you want to draw parallels with Magic theory and the words of someone famous, take the time to work it into the body of the article, and actually draw those parallels.

Pasting a random quote to the top of every article has become incredibly trite. Stop doing it.

[Tacosnape]

Judges caring about Bribery is one of the most amusing things I've ever read. And agreed, the quotes in everyone's articles are unnecessary.

However, I must say that the sentence "Even if you get it early, making cantrips cost two was not that big a barrier to the Threshold player. The cantrips do not kill you, the giant freakin’ Green creature does." made me laugh out loud and is incredibly true.

I will go on record to say that Boggart Mob is crap in Legacy. You wrote the following:


In fact it is not unreasonable to hold an Aether Vial at four and keep Boggart Mob in reserve to counter Swords to Plowshares. Personally I cannot wait to pull this play off; my excitement is only tempered by the fact that I will probably be wrecked by that exact play in the next tournament I play in.

To which I would respond, in what universe do you have four counters on an Aether Vial with Goblins where you aren't either

A. In a pretty good position to win the game anyway, or

B. in a position where you're losing and Boggart Mob won't help?

To me, a four-counter Vial indicates insantiy with Ringleader and the chance to overwhelm you with ridiculous forces.

I will say that despite thinking Mob is crap and Thorn's not quite right for the deck as it is currently, Wort is a complete nutbar. I haven't convinced myself she's worth the black splash just for her, but I haven't convinced myself she isn't either. Being able to kill a Tarmogoyf by Gempalming it with the Wort trigger on the stack, recurring the Gempalm, and then Gempalming it again is priceless.

[Illissius]

Being able to kill a Tarmogoyf by Gempalming it with the Wort trigger on the stack, recurring the Gempalm, and then Gempalming it again is priceless.

This doesn't work, as far as I can tell, because Wort's ability targets, and you have to choose one when you put it on the stack.

I don't see what's wrong with the quotes. They're harmless, not actively annoying (I wouldn't think?), and occasionally interesting.

[Anusien]

Tacosnape: I meant to bring it out more in the article, but I don't think Mob is a good maindeck card (unless you contort your deck to run 9+ four-drops, but what alternate world is that?). I'm really wondering about some number of Mobs in the sideboard to beat decks like Landstill or other board control decks. Something like Fanatic, Matron, Mob (championing the Matron) can easily overwhelm a Landstill player without over-commiting into Deed the way Ringleader can't. And if they Deed you, you get Matron back to go get another Mob. I'm looking at Mob as another set of Ringleaders that isn't draw dependent. They don't help you beat counters as easily, but counters aren't the biggest threat post-board (plus, immunity to REB is huge).

[Happy Gilmore]

If you want to draw parallels with Magic theory and the words of someone famous, take the time to work it into the body of the article, and actually draw those parallels.

Pasting a random quote to the top of every article has become incredibly trite. Stop doing it.

What he said. Ok, now I'm done spouting my qualms. Go back to discussing Goblins.