[Deck] Dragon Stompy [Archive] - Page 11

LoStefano

05-10-2010, 12:42 PM

Hi guys new to the thread here.

I'm kinda interested in building the deck (both competitively and an occasional casual multiplayer, none of my other legacy decks[reanimator, vial affinity and mighty quinn] seem to be able to play fairly) but got a few questions before I start building it.

I see some builds running Crystal Vein instead of City of Traitors, I do know that it's for budget or that they can't find the Citys, but some builds are saying that they like it over Citys why is that?

For aggro decks, some people board in Aether Flash, while LoStefano boards in Flametongue Kavu, anyone tried test both? Flash seems to work well against tribal stuff while flametongue is kinda like spot removal on a stick. Which is actually better?

Lastly I keep hearing that this deck is inconsistent to the point that it has to keep mulli-ing, is it that bad, it sounds like it's as inconsistent as belcher?

Sorry for the ton of questions.

There's no reason to run Crystal vein over city of traitor.

About Aether slash... Any smart player running a Tribal deck will know how to play around it with aether via, and at that point it will be useless.
In addition, Both goblins and merfolks are faster than us... And we may draw slash later, when it won't be useful... Plus, is double red, and we have to drop it the fastest as possible in order to get some value, so it will also be expensive in terms of resources, and in retms of tempo, because we don't drop a proactive card the turn we cast slash.

I'd cut it every time, and there's no comparison with Kavu. The most explicative sentence about this deck is taco's: DS is a deck of queston, not a deck of answers; Aether slash is only a (bad) answer, Flametongue kavu is a good question and also an excellent answer.

Bonus: No way to win a normal game versus zoo without it these days!

Ozymandias

05-10-2010, 01:03 PM

quibble: t1 blood moon on the play also works damn well.

Tivon

05-10-2010, 08:49 PM

City of Traitors is definitely much better than crystal vein. It has the potential to stick around and end up as a mountain, whereas crystal vein doesn't really have that ability.

As far as agro hate goes, I prefer to run x4 Pyrokinesis in board. It's hugely flexible - allowing you to take out hordes of small creatures or pinpoint a lord and a smaller creature or even bigger problem creatures - like rhox war monks and such. That being said, I've found against zoo early board disruption goes a long way towards securing a win. Moon, trinishphere and early chalices are huge and usually a combination of two of the above is enough to slow them down to get in with big fatties. if you have to room to bring in gravehate it also makes their goyfs and lavamancers (and possibly KoR) a lot less scary

0dysseus

05-13-2010, 02:06 PM

@ Tokobotenkai:

In Dragon Stompy you need 2-3 mana at least on the first round to cast Chalice, Moons or Trin preferably. That's 2 colorless mana coming 99% from Tomb or City/Vein, if you have them. Vein gives 2 then leaves and you have to play another land next round. City gives two immediately,stays, and on the 2nd round it gives another 2 before leaving(if you play a land) -or it stays giving 1 red if you play a Moon 1st round. Which would you rather have?:) Crystal Vein is cheap to buy, just that!
I would prefer 3 Flametongue & 2 Powder Keg, or 1-3 Pyrokinesis & 1-3 Powder Keg.
Yes, it mulligans bad but we all love it.

@ LoStefano:

It's Aether Flash:) Not Slash. It also reads: "Whenever a creature enters the battlefield, Æther Flash deals 2 damage to it." (Oracle text at http://gatherer.wizards.com). So I think that it kills small creatures brought with Aether Vial just fine..

LoStefano

05-17-2010, 02:54 PM

@ Tokobotenkai:

@ LoStefano:

It's Aether Flash:) Not Slash. It also reads: "Whenever a creature enters the battlefield, Æther Flash deals 2 damage to it." (Oracle text at http://gatherer.wizards.com). So I think that it kills small creatures brought with Aether Vial just fine..

Yeah... I miswrote the card... but meant Aether Flash in my Reply. ;)

The fact is that also if we are in control with aether flash, thaey can play a lord (merfolk for instance, or goblin too maybe), trigger aether plash, and in response vial another lord in the battlefield... That's a common play for the average player... So i don't think it's a good choice to rely on a situational card like A. Flash! Best argument versus it: A lord already into play 4 the opponent and a vial, or... we topdeck flash with oppo's full board. Now... imagine how many more chance to recoup the game if there was a kavu instead on top of our .library... ;)

good test to all disbelievers...

Tivon

05-17-2010, 07:27 PM

After this past weekend I've decided to start testing out 2 Flame Tongue Kavu in place of the two anarchy I had before in board. One of the biggest problems I had all day was heirarchs making bloodmoon effectively worthless, and a chance to take them out and get a decent body on board is definitely something I want to try out. It also is +2 hate cards against merfolk and goblins which are both matchups I haven't had significant problems with, but would appreciate a bigger swing in my favor

NecroYawgmoth

05-19-2010, 03:14 PM

"non-Hellbent Dragon Stompy" possible/viable???

...somehow it's more consistent IMO:

You don't need to play all 3-Spheres, FTKs, Jittes, everything from your hand, because you won't fuck up with Hellbent if you don't play Gathans & RPD.

Something like this, what do you think?:

4 Flametongue Kavu
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Sulfur Elemental
4 Taurean Mauler
3 Covetous Dragon

4 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
4 Trinisphere
3 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Snow-Covered Mountain

////
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Pithing Needle
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Powder Keg

YawG

YigSnakeDaddy

05-19-2010, 03:48 PM

I don't really see the point in Sulfur Elemental. I mean I can guess that's for the +1/-1 on enemy white creatures. But really?

NecroYawgmoth

05-19-2010, 05:35 PM

pros of Sulfur Elemental

1 CombatTricks
2 uncounterable
3 is Instant
3 kills Mother of Runes, White Weenie
4 kills Elspeth Tokens
5 kills Jötun Grunt =P
6 is good in response to a Standstill [Merfolk]
7 is a "suprise" Jitte-carrier

and... to tell the truth...

THERE ARE NO BETTER OPTIONS AVAILABLE =(

YawG

Tokobotenkai

05-23-2010, 09:55 AM

Does anyone have the Bazaar of Moxen 4 Dragon Stompy deck list that top18?

I heard it's of a Ponza build.

NecroYawgmoth

06-11-2010, 03:20 PM

BoM4 18th place

4 Flametongue Kavu
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Taurean Mauler

4 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
4 Trinisphere
2 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Mountain

Sideboard

3 Anarchy
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Pithing Needle
3 Powder Keg
3 Tormod's Crypt

...no Ponza Build, but an Seething-Slogger-less list, like usual nowadays IMO

I like the build a lot, but I think I would go +1 Pithing Needle, -1 Anarchy in the Sideboard...

YawG

Tacosnape

06-12-2010, 10:44 AM

overseer1234

06-12-2010, 02:20 PM

If you want to play Dragon Stompy in the modern Legacy metagame, you really should consider maindecking Tormod's Crypt. It has fantastic synergy with Hellbent guys, and has just as much "Oops, I win" potential as cards like Moon and Trinisphere do nowadays.

How so? I mean, it's good against ichorid and reanimate, but what else? and what would you replace.
Also wouldn't it make the red count go a bit low for chrome mox?

NecroYawgmoth

06-12-2010, 02:45 PM

How so? I mean, it's good against ichorid and reanimate, but what else? and what would you replace.
Also wouldn't it make the red count go a bit low for chrome mox?

same thoughts like me...

Only thing in the list above cutable is the Mauler IMO, and 4 Crypts maindeck are way to many dead slots against decks that aren't called Reanimate or Dredge...

In Taco's recommended list 2 sites before, it would be the 2 FTKs IMO, but I don't like to play only 3 Trinis nowadays... I also can't imagine a mainboard without Jittes...

DS has hard times nowadays :frown:

overseer1234

06-12-2010, 03:22 PM

True, also stonforge mystic into sword of fire and ice is real bad for us...

Tacosnape

06-12-2010, 06:11 PM

How so? I mean, it's good against ichorid and reanimate, but what else? and what would you replace.
Also wouldn't it make the red count go a bit low for chrome mox?

Reanimator, Lands, Dredge, and it's randomly decent against everything. It brings all of New Horizons' monsters into FTK/Slogger range. It sometimes does the same for Goyf, and it depletes the resources of a Lavamancer.

ScatmanX

06-12-2010, 06:22 PM

Reanimator, Lands, Dredge, and it's randomly decent against everything. It brings all of New Horizons' monsters into FTK/Slogger range. It sometimes does the same for Goyf, and it depletes the resources of a Lavamancer.

Not that I agree with you, but there's alsoall decks that uses Loam.

Ozymandias

06-13-2010, 12:05 AM

Tacosnape

06-13-2010, 11:24 AM

See, the issue with a "Hellbent-less" list is that Dragon Stompy really has 0 sources of card advantage (well, apart from occasional Jitte and Slogger activations). This means that you might as well run the hellbent creatures which are simply amazing when you are playing off the top of your deck.

Ozy's right.

The deck's biggest drawback has always been that it doesn't have a midgame. Hellbent is the deck's best option. It -has- to go balls to the wall, nearly every game, no matter what. Dragon Stompy's plan of attack has only the four following steps.

1. Drop a card that wins the game.
2. If that doesn't work, drop cards that stall for time and also drop huge enormous guys at ridiculous speeds.
3. If that doesn't work, hope your opponent makes a game-loss worthy play error, or spontaneously combusts from the nitroglycerin you snuck into his or her Dr. Pepper.
4. If that doesn't work, lose.

Hellbent fits right into this scheme.

0dysseus

06-14-2010, 01:17 AM

Boys there are many Sloggerless lists that have done well, like Francesco dalla Via's: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=25933 . But there are also ones that excelled with the full quartet. Remember James Mink? http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=23694 , http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=23984 . What will work best depends on your playing style and skill, metagame,and luck.

A few more examples to show the antithesis. Valentini Nicolò took 1st place without Sloggers: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=33387 . Christopher Dao played with 3, and Akromas: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=32311 . Federico Gozzi's list: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=35115 ,no Sloggers and 2 Silent Arbiters in the SB. Okutomi Hiromitsu played a non-Slogger list and 4 Lords of Shatterskull Pass (+Lightning Greaves:) http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=35013 . And this guy Su Xing had a couple of each + a Kazuul and an...Emrakul, the Aeons Torn in the sideboard! http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=35239 This might seem funny. But its a solution to any Mill deck (no library death), Isochron Scepter that bounces or destroys forever, and a control deck in general that wins after 1 hour of waiting (good luck finding 15 mana though). I think it can even pitch to Mox giving colorless :laugh: Lastly, one strange list that did well is this: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=35788

The point is..if you're having fun, you can even put Llanowar Elves in DS!
There are some cards that are generally better than others, but not always. There is no cookie-cutter. A killer counter card is worth nothing if you don't face its hate. And fortunately or unfortunately, we may all become a little sentimental with our favorite cards, sometimes putting in the deck what we fancy, but not what's better nowadays. You know these things.

I really don't understand all those Firespouts and even Flamebreaks in peoples' sideboards. Can somebody give me a logical explanation for this suicide attempt?

@ Tacosnape: Tormod's Crypt mainboarded you say...You mean 4 of them? If yes, then I guess the 2 Jittes and 1Moon + 1Trinisphere go SB, or what else?

Secretly.A.Bee

06-14-2010, 06:57 PM

This is my first post here, and I think I can at least help you out with why they use Firespout//Flamebreak. You can pitch one to a chrome mox, letting it tap for (R) or (G), which means with a Tomb or City, you can either cast it for G against your flying crowds, or otherwise just don't overextend in game two (and possibly 3) against goblins, zoo, merfolk, and any other list that uses swarms (Ichorid). Drop your acceptable amount of creatures (Leaving at least one threat in your hand, two or three is better), bomb the board and drop your muscled red threats and pound face before they get the army built back up. Alternately you could bomb the board and drop your disruption you drew into. Chalice at one, Trini. Throws off tempo. Just look at how you play for answers to card choices.

0dysseus

06-15-2010, 06:04 PM

I have told you my opinion that there is no absolute solution to a problem, but this sounds more like a weak 3 card combo. 1 Mox & 2 Firespouts. So expect to cast it for non-flyers. And let's forget that Flamebreak is hard to cast (RRR). How about the 3 dmg? Only Slogger survives, hellbent+unmorphed Raiders, & Mauler+2/+2.

If you hold creatures back maybe you will lose most of the "time walk" effect created by the trio: Chalice, Trinisphere and Moons. I think you won't hit fast enough if you don't drop all the creatures you can.

Alternatively, if you wait for some of his guys to appear, bomb them, drop disruption and then attack, I think that his single so-needed basic land will have been already fetched with no Moons or he will have dropped 3 lands to bypass Trinisphere.

The only plan that makes sense to me with "3+ damage to all" cards is to drop disruption first, then play a creature that will survive your "Wrath" like Arc-Slogger, Mauler or Lord of Shatterskull Pass, give some pain while you gather lands, bomb the battlefield after that, when you will be able to play anything expensive easily and finish him then, while your disruption still stalls him. Trinisphere will have lost some of its power though. But if you both play 1 creature a turn, yours will be fatter most of the times. Did you mean something like that?

I usually drop any attackers I have like crazy after disruption, to empty my hand and attack fast. If you have already tried something more effective than that by keeping guys in your hand, while still playing DS, I'd like to hear your strategy.

Honoluluicecaps

06-20-2010, 12:42 PM

Does the recent unbanning of Grim Monolith help Dragon Stompy? My thought process is that Covetous Dragon may now be playable with 16 artifacts, and that Arc Slogger probably becomes better (again), as it had been dropped from many recent lists. I need to test it out...

Ozymandias

06-20-2010, 06:01 PM

Well, an interesting thing about Monolith is that it only produces colorless, which means that if you run one out turn 1 off of a 2-land, you will have at most 1 red to use with it next turn. I might actually consider changing the deck a bit and keeping the red for moons. Maybe Seething song is no longer necessary. Pit Dragon is insane enough that I can legitimately countenance keeping it in as the only RR-coster, but I feel a Monolithed build may look like this as a rough draft.

6 Mountain
4 Great Furnace (Waste/turbo-dragon tradeoff I guess)
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Chrome Mox
4 Grim Monolith
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Blood Moon
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Covetous Dragon
2 Powder Keg

AlterEgo

06-21-2010, 04:19 AM

6 Mountain
4 Great Furnace (Waste/turbo-dragon tradeoff I guess)
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Chrome Mox
4 Grim Monolith
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Blood Moon
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Covetous Dragon
2 Powder Keg

There are exactly 20 cards to imprint into Chrome Mox... Is that really enough?

Honoluluicecaps

06-21-2010, 08:55 AM

I agree w/AlterEgo, there need to be more Chrome Mox targets... And as much as I'd like to abuse Lodestone Golem, I feel like we don't have enough synergy with it to justify it being in the MD. Those spots should probably be Simian Spirit Guides, or if you want more beaters, we turn them back into Taurean Mauler and refrain from adding Slogger.

Also, with Noble Hierarch running around, do we really want 8 moon effects MD? I've run into so many goddamn Bant decklists lately that I've lowered my number to 6 MD.

jazzykat

06-21-2010, 09:09 AM

I think that dragon stompy should be hybridized with 5/3 tubbies and potentially goblin welder. I don't know what you guys think, but chalice+welder+moons+3sphere+tubbies(especially lodestone golem) has got to cause problems for the opponent.

0dysseus

06-21-2010, 09:53 AM

There are exactly 20 cards to imprint into Chrome Mox... Is that really enough?

Hardly for me. After not a lot of testing today, I think Lodestone Golem is bad for these reasons:

1) It is another non-red spell.

2) It's worse than Trinisphere. I'm 99% sure that 1 Trini AND 1 Lode active will make opponent spells with 0, 1, or 2 cc to cost 3 still. While we will cast Magus with 4 and RPD with 5. Not to mention Slogger (or Covetous if someone tries him). Our most expensive spells are non-artifact! The same goes for morphed Raiders.

3) (point 2 exaggerated) What if you draw a second Lode after the initial mana boost and your first Moon, while you struggle to reach 4-5 mana?

4) Lode won't prevent the opponent from playing cheap artifact spells at all.

5) Last but not least, if you plan to use Lodes instead of Trinis (so that you will also beat them with a 2 in 1 card), think that Trini can be played 1st turn easily. And if you play Lode before your red spells you will only catch yourself in your own net.

I'll try to play 3 Trinis and 1 Lode MD, but I fear this will be pointless as well. Why don't you try 2-3 Lords of Shatterskull Pass instead of Golems?

Back in 1999, Kai Budde won the World championship using a red-artifact deck with a similar mana base as DS's. He used 4 Monoliths but also 4 Voltaic Keys. Same with Finkel's blue-artifact next year. I don't know if Monolith will work well without keys, especially here. It will certainly be a lot weaker than Song lategame. Song can pump Dragon, help cast Slogger AND deal dmg with him during the same turn, unmorph-pump Akroma and level up Lord of Shatterskull Pass at least. Plus it is rrRED!

@ Honoluluicecaps: I usually play 7 Moons main and none sb for practically the same reason & more variety.

I think that dragon stompy should be hybridized with 5/3 tubbies and potentially goblin welder. I don't know what you guys think, but chalice+welder+moons+3sphere+tubbies(especially lodestone golem) has got to cause problems for the opponent.
In the place of what? Don't forget the conflict between Chalice at 1 + Welder.. Could you please propose a list?

Volrath

06-21-2010, 10:43 AM

With the unbanning of Grim monolith, could Wildfire be a decent sweeper?, i mean a wildfire with a trini in play usually means GG.
Cavetous Dragon seems to become more apeasing.

Ozymandias

06-21-2010, 01:52 PM

Oh man, did I really forget SSG? Hurrrrr. In that case definitely -4 Golem +4 SSG.

endijian

06-25-2010, 09:29 AM

And we have another Contender for the 5-Mana-Slot:

http://www.starcitygames.com/images/article/06252010chapinpreview.jpg

Is it in the same league as Arcslogger?
Or is it another sport entirely?
Or maybe not good at all? Sitting on the Sidebench with Kazuul and a lot of other guys?

At least, it flies and says "if you kill me (in a Non-Stop/Path-Way) I put a Jitte in my owner's hand" or something like that...

marclark

06-25-2010, 04:27 PM

Well the dragon could be useful, getting a chalice early or a sword late, unfortunately it has to die to actually give you the equipment, and it just doesn't seem like it's big enough or has a powerful enough effect to warrant inclusion. Too situational IMO but maybe someone more experienced with the deck can test it and see. It could essentially replace itself by boosting another critter into a serious threat with SoFI. Just too bad it goes to your hand and not in play.

Btw Hello my name is Marty and I'm thinking about picking up this deck to play occasionally along with Faerie Stompy. =D

hungryLIKEALION

06-26-2010, 12:56 AM

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=106643&d=1277439343

If nothing else, this is at least an interesting creature. Would be great if it cost 3RR instead of 4RR, but it's still a VERY powerful effect. I'd be interested in trying one or two out.

Tammit67

06-26-2010, 02:17 PM

How often do you expect to hit 6 mana early enough for it to matter though?

Arsenal

06-26-2010, 02:47 PM

Is this better than R. Akroma? I don't think it is and R. Akroma only sees play as a 1-of in meta-specific lists.

GoldenCid

07-03-2010, 08:50 PM

Hey guys here is my "level Up" list:

// Lands
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
12 [TE] Mountain (2)

// Creatures
2 [ROE] Lord of Shatterskull Pass
2 [MR] Arc-Slogger
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
1 [FNM] Flametongue Kavu
4 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
4 [FUT] Gathan Raiders
4 [DIS] Rakdos Pit Dragon

// Spells
4 [MR] Seething Song
2 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
3 [9E] Blood Moon

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 2 [R] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [5E] Pyroblast
SB: 4 [AL] Pyrokinesis

Comments are needed and welcomed.

0dysseus

07-04-2010, 10:58 AM

Danger-of-the-cool-things Hellbent-destroyer Titan is too expensive. I've been disappointed even with Akroma. In most cases we must be able to cast something every turn. If we don't, then this is twice as bad with DS than it is with many other decks. Hoarding Dragon is also bad in my opinion, he must die to utilise his artifact-fetch ability. And we wouldn't want him dead once he hits play would we? We wouldn't want him to fetch us a Trinisphere or a Chalice after all that fuss either; we should play lockpieces first, and even mull for them. He would be useful only fetching your 1-2 Jittes/Sword, but he is no Stoneforge Mystic. He is a 4/4 flyer but I'd prefer a Slogger, an RPD or a Lord. So me says no.

@ GoldenCid: I'd play one less SoFI and one more Kavu perhaps..10 Mountains +some chrome mox if you have:) My typical sideboard has 3 Pithing Needle, 2 Anarchy and 4 Crypts, before everything else. And I don't like Firespout but with 3-4 equipments it might work. My testing list is this:

19 Land:
4 City of Traitors, 4 Ancient Tomb, 11 Mountain

21 threats:
4 Magus, 4 Simian Spirit Guide, 4 Rakdos Pit Dragons, 4 Gathan Raiders,
2 Arc-Slogger, 2 Lord of Shatterskull Pass, 1 Jaya Ballard

20 more spells:
4 Chalice of the Void, 2 Blood Moon, 4 Moxes
4 Seething Song, 3 Trinisphere, 3 Aftershock

SB:
1 Blood Moon, 1 Jitte, 4 Crypts, 2 Powder Keg, 3 Pithing Needle, 1 Rack and Ruin, 2 Anarchy, 1 Goblin Assault.

I've been testing one Slogger main and a Kazuul with this list. Damn Slogger is almost always useful. Don't cut him. Play 2 or 1 at least! I like Lord of Shatterskull Pass, he is good early game and lategame, thus he is better than Mauler concidering this. It is also you who chooses when to pump him. Sure if he is removed in responce to LVL up that's a tempo loss, but that's why we have 4 chalices in, to prevent that. And the same can happen to RPD, Mauler, Sulfur, Kavu, etc.. With less Sloggers, trying 1 Jaya main as an additional pitcher(of 1 more Trinisphere comin your way & so on) & dmg dealer & anti-blue is quite good.

The Goblin Assault works against Humility and black sacrifice decks. It's 1 because I have no more space. If you guys would propose a card against a Pox-sinkhole-Edict deck, what would it be?

It's really annoying when some combo beats you 1st turn, or when a 40/40 is reanimated 1st turn and you are on the draw. I'm about to try 4 Faerie Macabres and see if they can replace Crypts. If someone did this first please tell me what have you figured out. Note that with a Trinisphere down, a Crypt Costs 3, while Faerie is free. Faerie can be pitched to Moxes if you are desperate. I'd like to sideboard 4 Mindbreak Traps for the 1st turn anti-combo situations, but I feel that with 2 Sloggers main and no sweeper in the sb, I'll be weaker vs aggro.

I test the 3 Aftershocks as a maindecked removal tool. 2nd scenario is: -1 Mountain, -3 Aftershock, +4 Magma Jet, as solution to mulligans. Aftershock can kill: 1) a fetched basic, 2) any good non-shroud threat (let's say Goyf or Countryside Crusher), 3) an annoying artifact, 4) you! :D 2RR is hard..so I tried to support it with 11 mountains. I'm still undecided about 3 or 4 Trinispheres. A second Trinisphere is shitty, but a first turn Trinisphere is huge.

GoldenCid

07-04-2010, 11:50 AM

I agree with your recomendations!

Indeed, i made the following changes:

/ Lands
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
10 [TE] Mountain (2)

// Creatures
2 [ROE] Lord of Shatterskull Pass
2 [MR] Arc-Slogger
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
1 [FNM] Flametongue Kavu
4 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
4 [FUT] Gathan Raiders
4 [DIS] Rakdos Pit Dragon

// Spells
4 [MR] Seething Song
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
3 [9E] Blood Moon
4 [MR] Chrome Mox

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [AL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 4 [8E] Boil
SB: 3 [REW] Powder Keg

I like anarchy, really. What would you think now? and what would you cut in my SB in favour of anarchy??

0dysseus

07-04-2010, 03:22 PM

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [AL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 4 [8E] Boil
SB: 3 [REW] Powder Keg

I like anarchy, really. What would you think now? and what would you cut in my SB in favour of anarchy??

I'd play 4 Crypts, 3 Pyrokinesis, 3 Boil, 3 Kegs and 2 Anarchy, if the only thing I wanted to add to your sideboard was Anarchy.
But I'd suggest 4 Crypts, 0-4 Pyrokinesis, 0-4 Kegs, 2 Boil, 2 Anarchy and 3 Pithing Needle. Needles get a lot of jobs done (like blocking Pernicious Deed, Survival, Shackles, Engineered Explosives, etc., etc...), and their price fell to 5$ more or less.

I tried Smash, Scrap and Rack & Ruin because I hate things like Scepter-chant and practically that's 3 cards -along with my 2 Kegs- destroying artifacts (the one being Instant).

I'm not really a fan of many Jittes because they're legendary, not red, don't have an immediate effect, and there are many interesting tools I also want to include. Maybe I'd cut 1 Jitte and add 1 more sweeper-threat like Kavu/Slogger, or a Sword, if you want equipment. Or maybe your list is more competative as it is now:D Just keep trying on magic workstation. 10 games = 100 "pieces of advice".

GoldenCid

07-04-2010, 08:29 PM

But I'd suggest 4 Crypts, 0-4 Pyrokinesis, 0-4 Kegs, 2 Boil, 2 Anarchy and 3 Pithing Needle. Needles get a lot of jobs done (like blocking Pernicious Deed, Survival, Shackles, Engineered Explosives, etc., etc...), and their price fell to 5$ more or less.

I have playset of needle. But how does it work whith chalice?? I feel like anti sinergic...

0dysseus

07-04-2010, 10:03 PM

I have playset of needle. But how does it work whith chalice?? I feel like anti sinergic...

Needle is anti-synergic with Chalice @1, but it is extremely helpful against many a deck. With my limited experience I'll tell you that it can disable permanents that red cards cannot remove. And a lot more than that. Don't forget that Chalice can be set at 0, or 2 if needed; or sometimes be omitted game 2. You can also play a needle first, then Chalice @ 1. And if you play them together -because you need more lockpieces- and stumble, you can always play Needle which will be countered by Chalice and you won't lose hellbent.

If this deck is able to run only a few cards of cc1 because of Chalice, I think those cards would be Pyroblasts/REBs or Needles. The latter preferably. Trinisphere is good against blue countermagic anyway. Some blue guys or enchantments are pain but you could be slowing them down first if you play Boil. You can also burn blue guys. Relic of Progenitus practically does the same job Tormod's Crypt does (or Faerie Macabre). So if you have Needles better give them a try instead of sth else. That's my aspect of course, but the makers of this thread also insisted on this, before I started writing here. It's kinda tried.. Visit page 50 of the thread and search for Tacosnape's post.

Boots

07-05-2010, 02:32 AM

Hello all.

Played yesterday in a 24 man tournament where I split for first.

The list I ran was as follows:
10 Mountain
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
4 Trinisphere
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Blood Moon
4 Seething Song

4 SSG
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Gathan Raiders
1 Akroma, Angel of Fury
2 Taurean Mauler
2 Lord of Shatterskull Pass

Sideboard
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Boil
2 Pithing Needle
2 Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Pyrokinesis

Round one I played against NO Bant, with my opponent winning the role. My first turn trinisphere met a daze. Second turn jitte a force, but a third turn Blood Moon and fourth turn Dragon won. Game two my first Magus met daze, but turn two Chalice at one shut him down for Mauler and Magus to get the scoop.
1-0
2-0

Round two I played against TES, winning the role. Turn one chalice for one, turn two trinisphere won the way. Game two saw him double duress for two trinispheres turn one, while I was still packing a Magus. Triple Magus went the beat down route.
2-0
4-0

Round three was against Temp Thresh. Game 1 I was on the play with chalice at one. Game 2 I was at chalice at one. Wastelands and Jace kept me out of the game.
2-1
4-2

Round 4 was against UBw Faeries. Game one was marked by my first turn Chalice for one. Later chalice for two winning the game. Game 2 saw First turn chalice, second turn chalice, and then I was Jaced out without a red source. Game three I mulled to four due to a rules violation, but managed to resolve chalice for one and two while he drew lands.
3-1
6-3

Round five was an ID, while I ate and watched some stupid pack wars.
3-1-1

Top 8.
First round was against the thresh player from earlier. Game 1 saw chalice for 1, chalice for two. Mad dragon beats. Game 2 was chalice for 1.. Jace and Wastelands shutting me down. Game three was chalice at one, and dragons for days.

Next up was new Horizons. Winning the role I had a chalice Forced, allowing me to resolve trinisphere and moon effects for the win. Game 2 a first turn trinisphere stuck, followed by Magus, followed by 3 Gathan Raiders, Akroma, and a Dragon.

My final match was to be zoo, but we split and I walked away with 3 forces and a Grim Monolith.

Some general notes. I almost always sided out trinisphere on the draw againts non-combo decks. Chalice and Moon were the heroes of the day. I dislike Taurean Mauler. I never played Lord of Shatterskull Pass. I never found a good time to boil. People were scared of Kazuul. Like faeries.

GoldenCid

07-05-2010, 10:11 PM

Some general notes. I almost always sided out trinisphere on the draw againts non-combo decks. Chalice and Moon were the heroes of the day. I dislike Taurean Mauler. I never played Lord of Shatterskull Pass. I never found a good time to boil. People were scared of Kazuul. Like faeries.

Would you run cavetous dragon instead mauler??

Boots

07-06-2010, 02:01 PM

Would you run cavetous dragon instead mauler??

No. Mauler serves one important function. He is a three drop. With this deck I dislike five drops, seeing as how the only ones I run are sideboard. Even slogger is not worth my time, though I also think the negative aspect of his ability is to much.

If I was to run a replacement I would honestly consider testing Kargan Dragonlord, more Lords, and some other 3 and 4 drops. If I was to consider a new five drop, perhaps even the spoiled Hoarding Dragon. But I think he is over costed at five.

rufus

07-06-2010, 02:48 PM

No. Mauler serves one important function. He is a three drop. With this deck I dislike five drops, seeing as how the only ones I run are sideboard. Even slogger is not worth my time, though I also think the negative aspect of his ability is to much.

I was looking for alternative 3-drops, and Spur Grappler seems like it could be OK with the new mana burn rules when you don't MD instants, though, really, you'd want something that shuts the opponent down more that a vanilla beater.

Arsenal

07-06-2010, 03:15 PM

Sulfur Elemental has been kicked around forever as a 3cc alternative to Taurean Mauler. Other builds just run more Moon effects, more Jitte, or some combination thereof.

jin

07-06-2010, 05:56 PM

No. Mauler serves one important function. He is a three drop. With this deck I dislike five drops, seeing as how the only ones I run are sideboard. Even slogger is not worth my time, though I also think the negative aspect of his ability is to much.

If I was to run a replacement I would honestly consider testing Kargan Dragonlord, more Lords, and some other 3 and 4 drops. If I was to consider a new five drop, perhaps even the spoiled Hoarding Dragon. But I think he is over costed at five.

I agree. I had the same problem when looking for more creatures. The problem I have with Mauler is that he starts as a 2/2 and most of our prison like abilities stop our opponents from casting spells anyway. He also dies to firespout which I don't like. My alternative solution is Phyrexian War Beast. He's 3/4 for 3 mana which I find quite easy to cast since it is all generic. What do you guys think? Is the draw back too great? Please let me know. I also really like Lord of Shatterskull Pass. I think I will play test him.

How could you guys cut RAkroma though?! She's like the heart of the deck. I love playing with morph now because of her.. LOL. It's the only deck that can do it...

Wyrath the Great

07-07-2010, 04:23 AM

If I was to run a replacement I would honestly consider testing Kargan Dragonlord, more Lords, and some other 3 and 4 drops. If I was to consider a new five drop, perhaps even the spoiled Hoarding Dragon. But I think he is over costed at five.

Anyone else been testing this (Dragonlord that is)?

In theory it seems good and as I recently picked up a playset, I'd love to try it in DS. Only drawback is that the deck becomes even more mana hungry, but with no other worthy two drops around I thought it is worth testing at least.

jin

07-07-2010, 04:45 AM

double red? I don't know if that's a good idea..

Radiant

07-07-2010, 03:26 PM

Kargan Dragonlord requires too much red mana, which this deck rarely has too much of.

Lord of Shatterskull Pass is quite good, but not as a 4-off, 2 or 3 are the right numbers. Your opponent has to deal with it, or he'll oppose a 6/6 the next turn. It is a mid- to lategame card, that gives you beef without being dependant on hellbent.
If you have a Pit-dragon, just cast it to stay hellbent and beat ass with the dragon, without the dragon just level him up to have a huge threat.

GoldenCid

07-07-2010, 09:29 PM

double red? I don't know if that's a good idea..

Why not?? the deck runs 4x rakdos pit dragon and 2-3 arc sloger!!

NecroYawgmoth

07-07-2010, 10:07 PM

...but you don't want to play these 2 creatures on turn 2 [except with Seething Song]

This deck doesn't like RR very much...

2R is the way to go, but the creatures here are very limited... =(

but Shatterskull is a nice addition IMO

jin

07-08-2010, 04:50 AM

Why not?? the deck runs 4x rakdos pit dragon and 2-3 arc sloger!!

what he said...

...but you don't want to play these 2 creatures on turn 2 [except with Seething Song]

This deck doesn't like RR very much...

2R is the way to go, but the creatures here are very limited... =(

but Shatterskull is a nice addition IMO

RR is bad. YOu want to avoid it. Rakdos is too strong to ignore and arc slogger is necessary to take out swarms (of goblins). But you know you love it when gathan raider is in your hand because he cost 3 generic.......

Jon Stewart

07-08-2010, 11:41 AM

People were scared of Kazuul. Like faeries.

So is Kazuul better than Arc Slogger?

I'm trying to figure out which card to maindeck (don't have room for either in the sideboard). Would you maindeck Kazuul before maindecking Arc Slogger.

Fast swarm aggro is whats giving this deck fits for me whenever i play it.

Volrath

07-08-2010, 11:45 AM

So is Kazuul better than Arc Slogger?

I'm trying to figure out which card to maindeck (don't have room for either in the sideboard). Would you maindeck Kazuul before maindecking Arc Slogger.

Fast swarm aggro is whats giving this deck fits for me whenever i play it.

3/3's stop any kind of swarming dude, even if they pay 3 for 1 critter, you still can block with Kazuul.

Also, the tokens stay around, so you can possibly alpha strike them after their attack.

GoldenCid

07-08-2010, 08:26 PM

I think that the big advantage of slogger is that you can win under prison effects...

SgtD

07-10-2010, 06:06 PM

Regarding Dragonlord, I've not tested it but I've seen some lists (mostly via deckcheck) that run him and sometimes Demigod, often at the exlussion of Mauler/Kavu/Raiders. These decks also run the full eight Moon effects--the idea being, I guess, that you're going to have enough R to power up KDG and power out DoR eventually.

NecroYawgmoth

07-11-2010, 06:48 AM

Demigod is just awful... like Calamity and the other 2...

I suggested them in the past, but with a bit thinking, they just suck...

You can't safely cast them without Seething Song, and you can't be sure to have RRRRR on turn 5...

this is Legacy not Extended

Demigod, Dragonlord, bla... they are all good, when you have an resolved Moon effect, but you can't gurantee that

oh and btw Slogger > Kazuul, because he is more aggro orientated, but I kicked the Seething Slogger engine long before, because of inconsistence

YawG

Boots

07-16-2010, 11:28 PM

Some things. From testing I like levelers a lot. They give some optiond later in the game. Sadly I don't have access to dragonlords to test in actual tournaments. Lord of the pass seems almost amazing, just level 6 hurts, but people get scared.

I hate arc slogger. 10 cards adds up way to fast with creature quality in other decks. I like kazuul in the side as to give more options againts tokens and aggro. Hard to burn and big.

Big tournament Sunday, so I am either playing stompy again or fish. If I go the stompy route, I debate packing null rods.

NecroYawgmoth

07-17-2010, 10:42 AM

Null Rod against what?

Boots

07-17-2010, 03:22 PM

Countertop Thopter foundry. It shuts them down save for Jace. It also helps againts the odd affinity match ups, and I imagine it could be used to some degree againts something like Death and Taxes to lessen the Vial abuse mechanics.

GoldenCid

07-17-2010, 05:23 PM

mercc

07-17-2010, 06:05 PM

How is akroma moste often used? Hardcasted or flipped?

Is it better than Kargan?

Kargan, 2 mana - dumb, vulnerable 2/2

Akroma, 3 mana - dumb, vulnerable 2/2

But when you start invest they become better, ofcourse akroma have better abilities due to it's manacost. But kargan can get useful sooner when you don't have akroma-mana, when you have 6 or 8 mana in legacy you should win anyways. But I think kargan have earlier and more uses..

Pinder

07-17-2010, 06:12 PM

Kargan, 2 mana - dumb, vulnerable 2/2

Akroma, 3 mana - dumb, vulnerable 2/2

Don't forget, though, that :3: is roughly infinity easier to get than :r::r: in this deck in the early turns. Akroma can come down as early as turn 1 off Tomb/City + Mox, whereas Dragonlord would be a lot harder to cast.

mercc

07-17-2010, 06:56 PM

Well, my immediate response would me. Mountain, chrome mox, Kargan.

Derm

07-17-2010, 11:36 PM

I agree with Pinder on the Karagan Dragonlord discussion. Even though you can occasionally manage the [MANA]RR[MANA] casting cost, it's the worst thing for this deck. You only tolerate Rakdos Pit Dragon because it's awesome and ends the game very quickly.

It's unfortunate, but the threat slot that Karagan Dragonlord wants to fill can only be filled by Taurean Mauler at this point. You need a 2R threat. With Gathan Raiders at 3 and Rakdos Pit Dragon/Lord of Shatterskull Pass at 4, it's just the proper way to construct this deck's mana curve. You need it. And there's just nothing else at that casting cost right now. I wish Wizards would print something decent at that casting cost, of course. Sulfur Elemental would totally get the nod if it just had protection from White instead of its cute +1/-1 thing. Oh well.

Side note: Taurean Mauler isn't that great, but he's not that bad either. Your opponents will be using their spells to disable your lock and to drop threats of their own, thus growing him, and he's secretly a great weapon against Merfolk since he blanks Lord of Atlantis.

Another discussion I want to start: equipment. I think it's bad in this deck. I think that every card in this deck needs to fall into one of three categories---lock pieces, acceleration, or threats. Jitte, good as it is, does none of these things. Your creatures are good enough as it is. Just play more of them. 15 threats is much better than 13 + 2 Jitte, especially Jitte's usefulness is contingent upon you having a creature to begin with.

Here is my list.

[DECK]
Lock Pieces:
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Magus of the Moon
3 Blood Moon

Acceleration:
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Seething Song
4 Chrome Mox

Threats:
4 Gathan Raiders
3 Taurean Mauler
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
3 Lord of Shatterskull Pass
1 Akroma, Angel of Fury

Lands:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Mountain

SB:
4 Pyrokinesis
3 Boil
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Kuzuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs
2 Pyroblast

mercc

07-18-2010, 03:15 AM

I agree that RR is harder to get. But talking about curve.
There are those times where you dont have 3 mana available turn 1. Sometimes you have just Land and mox. That would make a first turn play, or even playing jitte with two mana is ok.

The thing with jitte is..... when it gets online it's a SERIOUS, HUGE HOUSE. Making it easier to beat merfolks and zoo. This deck can surprise it out AND equip it the same turn, making zoo not wanna pass the turn with mana up for tempolosing us on an eventual jitte.
But jitte is jitte, man..

I'm thinking -1 seething song +1 threat.
14 threats + 2 jitte?

Hell, when counting threats, jitte make SSG and Magus a threat as well.
The problem I found when playing was that you onload trinispheres, and chalices, maguses of moons. But for example. when the eva green i faced just acceptet that spells he played cost more, but with no clock on him other than a grizzly bear. He'd have time to vindicate and hymn and tombstalker/nighthawk for the win eventually.

GoldenCid

07-18-2010, 10:54 AM

I think that equips give the deck some removal and other abilities it lack. Sword of F and I gives you protection, draw and a small removal.
Jitte, dispite it cmc = 2 gives you lifes and removal beside the pump. For this deck specifically i think that SoFaI fits a bit better than jitte.

NecroYawgmoth

07-18-2010, 02:56 PM

but SoFaI is bad, because it doesn't synergize with Hellbent...

I play 24 Threads and 2 Jitte... sometimes I test it without Jitte, and more creatures... [Lord of Shatterskull Pass in my case]

I like him... 4+2 mana 6/6 is good, and in stallgames, his "ultimate" will win you the game =P

GoldenCid

07-18-2010, 03:08 PM

but SoFaI is bad, because it doesn't synergize with Hellbent...

It's just bad for that reason?? I don't think so....

NecroYawgmoth

07-18-2010, 03:28 PM

...this and 3/2 instead of 2/2

why play something, that could be antisynergistic in the deck, rather than play something which is nearly the same [if not better], but not antisnyergistic...

GoldenCid

07-18-2010, 03:43 PM

...this and 3/2 instead of 2/2

why play something, that could be antisynergistic in the deck, rather than play something which is nearly the same [if not better], but not antisnyergistic...

It's not antisynergistic since it gives the deck what it lacks: draw!

mercs

07-18-2010, 03:49 PM

It's not antisynergistic since it gives the deck what it lacks: draw!

hey dude. It is antisynergistic.

when you doublestrike with the dragon and sofi, the second damage won't go through b/c SBE will take away hellbent.
This will also turn your raiders into smaller powered guys.

i think your too in love with a draw engine that's not even that big a factor. no offense, it's good but not amazing. Jitte definitely better.

NecroYawgmoth

07-18-2010, 04:23 PM

Tivon

07-18-2010, 05:11 PM

Jitte > SoLaS > SoFaI

It's pretty much all there is to it. And if you are opening a hand that is mountain and mox, you should probably be mulliganing, not running creatures that are easier to cast off a mana light hand that you shouldn't be keeping.

The hardest thing to master in this deck is knowing when to keep and when to ship back. Being afraid to mulligan is the greatest handicap you can have with this deck

Meekrab

07-18-2010, 06:16 PM

It's not antisynergistic since it gives the deck what it lacks: draw!
This deck doesn't want to draw extra cards, it wants to make the cards in your opponent's hand worthless, or failing that, race them.

mercs

07-19-2010, 04:39 PM

...move DS away from Hellbent...

Magus, SSG, Mauler, FTK, Shatterskull, Sulfur, maybe even Covetous Dragon [all without inconstant stuff like Seething Song], and you can play SoFaI all day long, but not in a deck, which gets the power from Hellbent...

AND "if you have no cards in hand." and "you draw a card." is antisynergistic... an 3 year old child could see that, srsly wtf dude -.-

I never had any problem w/ people moving towards consistency DS either, but the guy I was quoting had the build of the old DS.

And don't go and be a prick with the whole "wtf" stuff. insults are not what this thread is for.

just clarify it to someone who obv doesn't understand the mechanic. People don't see that stuff when they just look at a decklist. we're just trying to help the new guys to this deck, so there's no need to make messed up comments unless your just here to troll.

NecroYawgmoth

07-19-2010, 08:05 PM

Shawon

07-19-2010, 08:56 PM

How does Sword of Vengeance measure up as an Equipment in this deck? It doesn't mess with Hellbent or Chalice of the Void. Is Jitte still better?

AlterEgo

07-20-2010, 02:41 AM

How does Sword of Vengeance measure up as an Equipment in this deck? It doesn't mess with Hellbent or Chalice of the Void. Is Jitte still better?

forget it.
I'd play LoxHammer before this sword... it's one less power, no lifegain and haste is negligible. So only vigilance and first strike to make up for it...

Hopo

07-20-2010, 02:48 AM

Jitte is card advantage, where the rest of your deck is not. The new Sword is no substitute.

mercs

07-20-2010, 07:59 PM

well... I don't wanted to insult him... also, I never meant to troll someone or stuff like that, and I appologize if someone felt himself attacked by me =/

To clarify my post before:

In my opinion, you should read all cards of a deck, when you are new to it. Sure, you won't be able to find out all "secret techs" and moves this deck is able to perform. Thats not what I expect from someone new to the deck, but tou can read out the basics when you look at the cards... [like Ichorid is playing with more then 1/6 of cards with dredge, so you can think, it has to do something with the mechanic Dredge]

...and this deck plays 8 cards with the ability Hellbent, and Gathan Raiders are so often called the "best creature" in the deck [besides MotM, obviously]...so I can't understand how someone can suggest something like... ...carddraw.

Besides that... I really could believe that DS without Hellbent and Swords can work, It was not joking... something that looks like this:

Creatures
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Lord of Shatterskull Pass
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Taurean Mauler
3 Flametongue Kavu

Stuff
3 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
4 Trinisphere
2 Sword of Fire & Ice
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Mountain

YawG

I'm not opposed to a deck like this. What I meant was that this falls more along the consistency DS decklist. If mtg keeps putting out slots that gear more towards consistency DS rather than the original (hellbent DS), than of course it should be adopted. A similar case happened with thresh decks. goyf, hierarch, monks and sprites all seemed superior to the old thresh mechanic, but UG control aspect stayed the same.

Right now, DS seems right on the boarderline, having similar success from each version. We'll see where the meta eventually brings the deck.

Shawon

07-20-2010, 10:12 PM

Creatures
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Lord of Shatterskull Pass
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Taurean Mauler
3 Flametongue Kavu

Stuff
3 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
4 Trinisphere
2 Sword of Fire & Ice
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Mountain

YawG

You know, for an equipment-heavy build such as this one, I think Silent Arbiter would be a promising card. Against aggro or tribal decks, you can cross out the possibility of an alpha strike with Arbiter, however, barring Qasali Pridemage. Also, with Silent Arbiter, you can still win through Thopter Combo since the opponent can't chump block or swarm you with tokens.

NecroYawgmoth

07-21-2010, 03:01 PM

mercs

07-21-2010, 07:56 PM

I see 2 problems in this...

1) It costs 4, like Golem, Lord & Kavu do, and 3 is the better casting cost for this deck, and I think its worse than these 3...

2) IMO Dragon Stompy is all about Aggro... overwhelm the opponent!!! WE are the Aggro-deck! Screw him, and than kill him bevore he can recover...

but Arbiter is all about Anti-Aggro

I agree with this. I've tried arbiter, but it takes so long to kill them that most players can recover from any softlock, and power over the arbiter pretty well.
Also, don't fear tokens. Volcanic fallout is more than enough. optimal if used right after bitterblossum has activated for the 4th time, before the attack. as for thopter, u run shattering spree's and crypts as well. there's a lot of sb for these decks.

Derm

07-23-2010, 03:08 AM

What about Serum Powder in this deck?

One thing I've been noticing with Dragon Stompy is that it has a good number of awesome draws, a couple workable draws, but a lot of useless, must-mulligan draws. Like, more un-workable draws than most decks, since without library manipulation or disruption to buy you time, your first 7 cards are undoubtedly your most important.

Why not give yourself the chance to get free new hands? It's not like this is a combo deck where you might exile important combo pieces and mess with your ability to win.

This seems like a generic statement, but I think it's true, especially since you want first turn lock pieces down against most decks.

Serum Powder could be good, I think.

Red count for Chrome Mox is an issue. The first thing I'd think to take out is Seething Song, since it's the most awkward and inconsistent thing in your deck, but it is red. Maybe you could take out Trinisphere? Without Smokestack/Wasteland/other mana disruption, Trinisphere prevents your opponents from playing more than one spell per turn, but ultimately doesn't 'lock' them out of anything, even in conjunction with a moon effect.

(Obviously I think Trinisphere has its place in DS, but I'm just brainstorming.)

Serum Powder is pretty much a dead top-deck, but so are a lot of things in this deck. The reason I think it could work is that if you're not winning in the first couple of turns, you're probably not winning at all, so you might as well go all-in.

What do people think?

Meekrab

07-23-2010, 03:30 AM

On the basis of exactly zero testing, I'm going to posit that you'll be using Serum Powder about 100% of the time you open it, because NOT using it is the same as mulling to six. So the fact that it saves you from all mana/no mana/no colored mana hands 40% of the time is moot, because it also bricks 40% of your god hands. And it sounds pretty awful to RFG 7 cards on turn 0 and then open an Arc Slogger.

Tivon

07-23-2010, 09:51 AM

I agree with meekrab on this. When you see it in a good hand, you will wish it was something else, when you draw it, you will wish it was something else.

the fact that it essentially takes away 2 damage worth of reach from arc-slogger is something that goes against it as well. I also don't think cutting trinisphere is a good idea. While it does suck in multiples, it absolutely kills tempo decks, and is usually enough to outright beat combo if they kept a land light hand, especially in conjunction with a moon effect. It is one of my favorite first turn plays, and I usually don't mind seeing it late either - barring already having one or really needing a creature.

On seething song, it is one card that I will at this point, never cut. I usually don't even side it out. It is amazing with rakdos pit dragon, and makes hardcasting Red akroma possible (as well as unmophing). It smooths out the red source count and can allow for multiple plays on the first turn, like chalice at 1 and a moon or trinisphere.

Derm

07-29-2010, 02:26 AM

Derm

07-29-2010, 02:27 AM

d0ner

07-29-2010, 03:29 AM

Hating Hypergenes is easy: Chalice of the Void for 0.

Show and Tell is unfair, so u need to lock out the opponent befor with Moon/Trinispehere and hope to be faster!

whienot

07-29-2010, 08:25 AM

Trinisphere is also pretty good against Hypergenesis. I'm 99% sure that when they cascade into Hypergenesis, that they'll have to pay 3 before they can cast it.

AlterEgo

07-29-2010, 09:39 AM

Trinisphere is also pretty good against Hypergenesis. I'm 99% sure that when they cascade into Hypergenesis, that they'll have to pay 3 before they can cast it.

Be 100% sure - as Cascade explicitely allows to *cast* the spell, Trinisphere demands its tax of {3}

TheSleeper

08-09-2010, 12:52 AM

[Off Topic: In reading the last few pages of this thread, my most hated 'word' is so often used: 'anti-synergy/antisynergistic'. How CLUMSY is it?! >.<

After much discussion here (http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=579222), please use ANTERGY if you like it. Soo much cleaner imo. A definition as given on that page is:
Antergy: a condition in which the total quality or effect of something is ultimately less than the sum of its parts.

So spread the word (pun intended!). /end OffTopic]

Back on topic, has anyone tested Yawgs 'more consistent, no Hellbent' list? Specifically how Lodestone Golem measures up and if lack of Rakdos is an issue? I've loved this deck for a long time but its rubbish draws and lack of CA have always put me off playing it seriously. I really *want* Lodestone and Lord of Shatterskull Pass to work as I like the cards; definitely time for me to sleeve this bad boy up. My love for the minotaur may be partially due to the fact you can yell out 'none shall pass!' LotR-style when slamming him down :)

tron

08-10-2010, 03:43 PM

I just put this deck together, and haven't put together a sideboard yet. How is this deck supposed to deal with reanimator/show and tell type of decks? I think I almost want to run Noetic Scales.

Eksem

08-10-2010, 07:32 PM

I just put this deck together, and haven't put together a sideboard yet. How is this deck supposed to deal with reanimator/show and tell type of decks? I think I almost want to run Noetic Scales.

The best way to deal with those decks is to lock them out and aggro them before they go off I guess, because this deck can't really dig for answers. Even if you have an answer in your deck (Noetic Scales is not a fantastic card for a deck that is built around beaters and hellbent, btw) you will probably never have and resolve it in time before their huge creatures beat you down. The sideboard cards for this deck should be cards that fulfill a role in your deck better against some strategies than your maindeck cards. Otherwise you'll be the guy that always go "Man, I NEVER draw my sideboarded cards! No wonder I lose!" and there is nothing to be gained from that. If those types of strategies are popular and performing well in your meta, you should probably avoid this deck.

GoldenCid

08-10-2010, 08:08 PM

I just put this deck together, and haven't put together a sideboard yet. How is this deck supposed to deal with reanimator/show and tell type of decks? I think I almost want to run Noetic Scales.

If you wish, i post you my current sideboard for inspiration:

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [AL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 4 [8E] Boil
SB: 2 [IA] Anarchy (fantastic)
SB: 2 [WWK] Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs (pretty good)

tron

08-11-2010, 05:32 PM

@ GoldenCid
Nice sideboard. How are you liking the boils? With 7-8 blood moon effects, is it overkill? How about REB instead, because it helps you resolve blood moons, and is a one mana removal card.

I suppose the most best choice would be to play a different deck, but I like this deck and want to try to make it work. Yes, I realized Noetic Scales is a bad card, and especially in this deck.

On a further note, has anyone ever tried using Uba Mask? It can hit show and tell and sneak attack, and nullifies counters, and prevent careful study from dumping monsters into the graveyard. With Uba Mask, and chalice at one (entomb, careful study), that is potentially a lock-out vs reanimator. Just a thought.

tron

08-11-2010, 05:51 PM

Actually I read the text on Uba Mask wrong, i thought it removed all cards in your current hand too for some reason. Not as good as I thought it was.

Tacosnape

08-11-2010, 07:01 PM

All right, fair points about Serum Powder. Not a good idea.

What does this deck do against all the Show and Tell/Emrakul decks running around? There are tons of brews and combo sideboards that cheat Emrakul and Progenitus into play pretty quickly (Hypergenesis is another example) and all their 'kill' spells cost 3 (Violent Outburst, Show and Tell), so Chalice doesn't help that much.

Short of Moon effects locking opponents out, is there any tweaking that should be done to respond to this metagame shift?

You could always run Stingscourgers. He's probably Red's best answer right now. Second best would be REB/Pyroblast, which are dynamite in the format right now.

I don't still play this deck given how bad the metagame for it is at the moment (Though I like it against the Countertop and Landstill decks in the top 8.) But if I did, I'd very probably be giving some love to Stingscourger given how many decks rely in some form or another on a single giant threat.

Perhaps something along the lines of:

10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Seething Song

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
4 Blood Moon

4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Arc-Slogger
3 Stingscourger

SB:
4 Pithing Needle
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Pyroblast

GoldenCid

08-11-2010, 07:26 PM

I dont like the idea of 1 cmc cards playing chalice @ 1 so often.

Tacosnape

08-11-2010, 09:38 PM

I dont like the idea of 1 cmc cards playing chalice @ 1 so often.

Why? They're all in sideboard. And most of them are going to show up when Chal @1 is at its absolute weakest.

Red Elemental Blast and Pyroblast help hit Show and Tell, Landstill, Merfolk, and depending on the list, Countertop. None of the first three decks quake a whole lot at the prospect of a Chalice for 1. Chalice for 1 can shut off Top and Cantrips against Countertop, but the Blast can take down Jace, Counterbalance, Vendilion Clique, and if their manabase is iffy, power a Moon through countermagic. Huzzah!

Pithing Needle comes in when you see cards that are a huge problem without it. This can be Goblin Charbelcher, Pernicious Deed, Survival of the Fittest, or even Jace the Mind Sculptor. It can clash with Chalice on occasion, but not as much as you'd think.

0dysseus

08-25-2010, 02:11 PM

[...]

I don't still play this deck given how bad the metagame for it is at the moment (Though I like it against the Countertop and Landstill decks in the top 8.) But if I did, I'd very probably be giving some love to Stingscourger given how many decks rely in some form or another on a single giant threat.

[...]

I agree with you, but the problem is that some giant threats can't be targeted. I guess your idea is to return their creature (if it's not sth like Progenitus) and them finish them quickly with a little luck?

4 Sloggers still Taco eh? You must know a little better, but have you tried any Lords of Shatterskull Pass? I wouldn't name Lord a "casual" card in this deck.. I think it's miles ahead of Sulfur, Akroma and even Mauler. And with so much blue, I kinda like Jaya and Blasts again. 7 of them should be too much, but also too strong against today's decks.

I'm beginning to understand fully the "play 4 Pithing Needle" part of the story:D Add Sneak Attack to your list of targets mate!

EDIT: Can you tell me why you prefer 4 Crypts over 4 Faerie Macabres? Only 2 cards removed, but we choose, so Goyf gets -2/-2. Okay, Crypt can't be discarded while it's down, waiting, but what else? Faeries are immune to countermagic, our own Trinisphere, can be pitched instantly (surprise hellbent), can be used with a mox, can be played 1st turn on the draw! I like Faeries.

NecroYawgmoth

08-26-2010, 06:57 AM

I think, that bounce is not necessary in DS

I agree that Slogger isn't hat was it was in the past, anymore...

I exchanged all Sloggers with Flametongue Kavus, long time ago... it's ok, the only problem is, that it can't kill Goyfs all the time...

I dont agree 100% with Shatterskull...

sure, he is 100 times better than Sulfur or Rakroma, but better than Mauler?

YawG

overseer1234

08-26-2010, 10:41 AM

I think, that bounce is not necessary in DS

I agree that Slogger isn't hat was it was in the past, anymore...

I exchanged all Sloggers with Flametongue Kavus, long time ago... it's ok, the only problem is, that it can't kill Goyfs all the time...

Same here, but you can always attack and force them to block with goyf, and then go on and kill it with FTK.

I dont agree 100% with Shatterskull...

sure, he is 100 times better than Sulfur or Rakroma, but better than Mauler?

YawG

I still play with sulfur since I always stumble across landstill decks with elspeth, and then he's gold.

and in multiple's it can also be handy with qasaly pridemage showing up more and more...

NecroYawgmoth

08-30-2010, 02:58 PM

Qasali shouldn't hit the board, if u got a first Turn Moon, but I know what you mean =/ ...

Sulfur is also good against UWT, but I personally think its worthless to play Sulfur, if you don't maindeck equipment.

btw, just wanted to tell you, that Shatterskull is a monster, it's really good, and has the "bigger than Goyf" argument on his side...

@ Taco: 4 Pyroblast and 3 REB should be better than vice versa, because of Hellbent-issues =P

YawG

largebrandon

09-09-2010, 03:08 AM

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=110398&d=1284004936

This seems like a pretty badass four drop for this deck! comes down and swings for four immediately. Synergies with blood moon, as all of our lands will be mountains. We can use its second ability to pump up Pit Dragon to a decent size, or, if we have it in the deck, level up our other four drop.

largebrandon

09-09-2010, 03:09 AM

Edit: Double Post! Sorry!

technogeek5000

09-09-2010, 08:53 AM

This card makes lord of shatterskull pass much better then it used to be. The mana curve is just right for the deck and its plus one ability reads, untap mountain, so even if you use it and you dont want to attack, you can net a free mana. The card is a beatstick, a source of mana, and a removal/finisher all wrapped in one. magus of the moon makes this guy great to the point where you may want to consider running 5-8 moon effects maindeck. I'm going to do some testing with this card and will relay back how well it works.

Vacrix

09-09-2010, 11:13 AM

Infinitium

09-09-2010, 11:30 AM

Seeing as control and tribal decks won't be able to cope with the last ability whether you have 2 or 10 mountains in play, and it's effectively a hasted 4/4 with an equally hasted high tide attached in a deck running mana sinks.. yes, I'm going to venture it's worth it.

keys

09-09-2010, 01:25 PM

As cool as Koth is... you don't really run enough Mountains to abuse him to his full potential. Making 4/4's is all he really does most of the time, while his mana ramping (-2) and damage dealing (-5) abilities will only work if you have a significant number of mountains. Is he really worth the slots?

Because the deck doesn't already run cards that turn all your lands into mountains anyway ;)

Gheizen64

09-09-2010, 01:26 PM

Also it make Magus of the Moon non-dead against red based decks... not to say it potentially steal games with Rakdos pit-dragon and Lord of Shatterskull zzz if you run them. A 4/4 that's not removable by sorcery removal (i'm looking at you, stupid gatekeeper of mafiakir), can give you +1 mana, with haste and that occasionally win the game with his ultimate is pretty good i heard. Not to say a card that can give you card advantage + beats is just golden in a deck like this.

About FtK. He's currently good as he remove most of the creatures of the format, even Goyf sometimes. Problem i've found with him is that he simply can't attack into anything with 2 toughness. Maybe Lord is better in his spot, but Lord just get chump-blocked by merfolk and goblin... I hate how red doesn't have a decent pro blue or pro white creature. Sigh.

Vacrix

09-09-2010, 01:31 PM

Because the deck doesn't already run cards that turn all your lands into mountains anyway ;)
Clever.

I definitely missed that. Given Blood Moon effects, I can see Koth being played. He could replace Gathan Raiders, though probably not 4 in 4 out.

Tacosnape

09-09-2010, 01:52 PM

Okay, before anyone else spouts off anything ridiculous,

1. You never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever replace Gathan Raiders.

2. Koth is an auto 3-of in this deck. Possibly 4-of.

I don't know exactly why people insist on playing Lord of Shatterskull Pass (In my opinion even Kargan Dragonlord is better), but Koth isn't an argument for him. Koth is an argument against him and for Arc-Slogger. If you can drop a Koth, then next turn you can drop an Arc-Slogger.

Also, Flametongue Kavu is a weak substitute for Arc-Slogger. Slogger wins games singlehandedly against quite a few decks. Kavu never does.

So my current list would look like this:

11 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Blood Moon
2 (Fill in your best metagame card here)

4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Arc-Slogger
3 Koth of the Hammer

jafar

09-09-2010, 02:18 PM

@Taco

Why no trini maindeck?

Bye

Vacrix

09-09-2010, 02:45 PM

Okay, before anyone else spouts off anything ridiculous,

1. You never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever replace Gathan Raiders.

2. Koth is an auto 3-of in this deck. Possibly 4-of.

I don't know exactly why people insist on playing Lord of Shatterskull Pass (In my opinion even Kargan Dragonlord is better), but Koth isn't an argument for him. Koth is an argument against him and for Arc-Slogger. If you can drop a Koth, then next turn you can drop an Arc-Slogger.

Also, Flametongue Kavu is a weak substitute for Arc-Slogger. Slogger wins games singlehandedly against quite a few decks. Kavu never does.
I figured that Arc-slogger was too strong to cut, so naturally Raiders would get the axe. Is it really that good? It looks as though you are playing Raiders over 3sphere. I would think that 3sphere is too strong to cut completely.

Gheizen64

09-09-2010, 02:54 PM

Shawon

09-09-2010, 03:16 PM

Since you're now running Koth, you don't need to always depend on Seething Song to ramp up Arc-Slogger mana.

I would make these changes to Tacosnape's List:

-1 Seething Song

+3 Trinisphere (to fill up that metagame slot)

The sb would run the last Trinisphere.

LostButSeeking

09-09-2010, 03:23 PM

As cool as Koth is... you don't really run enough Mountains to abuse him to his full potential. Making 4/4's is all he really does most of the time, while his mana ramping (-2) and damage dealing (-5) abilities will only work if you have a significant number of mountains. Is he really worth the slots?

If you have a blood moon in play, ALL of your lands will be mountains. I don't know if that will change your opinion of him, but he's certainly improved having four mountains in play as opposed to two mountains and two city of traitors.

technogeek5000

09-09-2010, 04:08 PM

With the list I am testing, I have been having lots of mana problems even though I run:

11 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song
3 Koth

Should I be running a 12th mountain?

jandax

09-09-2010, 05:40 PM

So, congrats to Dragon Stompy for Koth?

luv,

unsupported community?

Psyqo

09-11-2010, 08:04 PM

So Koth looks like a definite 3-of in a maindeck Dragon Stompy. I would like to have that ultimate active ASAP, so I would almost consider popping the ultimate the 3rd turn Koth is on the table (once he has 5 counters) which would kill him. My thought is that once you have the emblem, that Koth isn't as useful after that point. What are everyone's thoughts on how best to use him and his ultimate?

Shawon

09-11-2010, 08:53 PM

Rules question with Koth: You need a target Mountain for his +1 ability right, otherwise you can't activate the ability?

Psyqo

09-11-2010, 08:57 PM

Rules question with Koth: You need a target Mountain for his +1 ability right, otherwise you can't activate the ability?

Yeah. I'd imagine that as long as you active the ability with a legal target, it will resolve even if the target goes away (opp Wasting your Volcanic Island or somesuch).

GoldenCid

09-12-2010, 01:15 PM

Should I be running a 12th mountain?

Why for the last ability??

0dysseus

09-12-2010, 07:55 PM

At long last something extremely good.. I'll be missing this thread, if there will be almost nothing to discuss! But maybe it will be revived with new tournament reports from now on:D

I don't think I will continue the debate about Lord of Shatterskull Pass now. My concern is about the number of Arc-Sloggers, 3 or 4.
With 3xKoth in -and an 11th Mountain- the "unplayable Slogger" issue is almost gone (it'll never be gone 100% in magic). But if you add 4 Sloggers that means 2xTrinisphere or none are maidecked. What can we cut to increase the number of Trinispheres to 3, I'm wondering.
I used to play 3 Blood Moons until today, but now 4 are even better than before mainly due to Koth's second (and third) ability. No room there. Same with Magi of the Moon.
4 Raiders are good for pitching, are extraordinarily easy to cast (anti-manascrew) and...are most aggressive. I've never thought of cutting them.
R.P.Dragons? Nein!!
Chalices? NOT A CHANCE!
Simians, Moxes? Emergency threat, both mana-boosters, supporting hellbent. Negative.
Seething Song?? I don't think this can be cut. Adding at least 3 more 2RR spells in DS needs more support than 1 extra Mountain. Songs were crucial before, they are even more crucial now. Yes Koth gives you mana. But you need to cast him first! Just my opinion..
SO...what's left? 9 slots. 3 Koths in? => That leaves 6 slots. Why not 3xArc-Slogger and 3xTrinisphere?

If you think Trinispheres aren't needed so much in the main deck, then definitely try playing 4 Arc-Sloggers! But only 2 Trinis sound bad. I don't care if Ruel played 2 sometime in the past. They will come in your hand mostly when they are useless.

Do you guys think Jitte is worth it anymore main or SB? If you played my 3xKoth, 3xSlogger, 3xTrinisphere configuration, what would you think of the following sideboard? 4xNeedle, 4xFaerie Macabre, 2xAnarchy, 2xR.E.Blast, 1xJaya Ballard, 1xJitte, 1xRack and Ruin. Do you think Pyrokinesis,Pyroclasm or Kegs are more handy than some of my choices and which?

EDIT:
So Koth looks like a definite 3-of in a maindeck Dragon Stompy. I would like to have that ultimate active ASAP, so I would almost consider popping the ultimate the 3rd turn Koth is on the table (once he has 5 counters) which would kill him. My thought is that once you have the emblem, that Koth isn't as useful after that point. What are everyone's thoughts on how best to use him and his ultimate?

I wouldn't focus on his ultimate... His first two abilities are too hot and kinda put you in dilemmas, estimating best mana usage and the highest damage. I'd try to have the opponent cornered before being able to use the ulti. Or I'd use the second ability to pump a Dragon in order to deal more extra damage than with the ulti. It depends on the game (example, the kind of removal the opponent has).

One more important thing to ask all of the Legacy-die-hard players...Do you expect Koth's price to go up too fast or/and too much? I'm thinking of going to the prerelease, trying to trade 4 of them and getting the rest via order. But if you guys think that it won't play too much in Legacy except in DS, maybe the best move to get 4 of them fast is an internet order. I don't know about Goblins or Sligh, but could Koth be good in Aggro-Loam for example, or any other deck? If yes, the price could increase instantly. I'd really like to have the quartet before they reach Elspeth's or Jace's price. EDIT: Koth's an Epic rare.

Your opinions will be appreciated very much as always.

HAVE HEART

09-12-2010, 09:53 PM

One more important thing to ask all of the Legacy-die-hard players...Do you expect Koth's price to go up too fast or/and too much? I'm thinking of going to the prerelease, trying to trade 4 of them and getting the rest via order. But if you guys think that it won't play too much in Legacy except in DS, maybe the best move to get 4 of them fast is an internet order. I don't know about Goblins or Sligh, but could Koth be good in Aggro-Loam for example, or any other deck? If yes, the price could increase instantly. I'd really like to have the quartet before they reach Elspeth's or Jace's price. EDIT: Koth's an Epic rare.

Your opinions will be appreciated very much as always.

It is tough to say. He must be used in a base Red deck, so pretty much mono Red. If it turns out he is aggressive enough at four mana to be a staple in Standard Burn, then his price will go up, but Burn might be unplayable between Wall of Omens, Kor Firewalker and Leyline of Sanctity.

ivanpei

09-14-2010, 02:49 AM

I'm gonna post the same thing as on the scars thread:

"
Re: [SOM] Spoiler Discussion

From Mtgsalvation:

Precursor Golem
5 Colorless, Golem Artifact Creature, 3/3

When it comes into play, put two colorless Golem artifact creature tokens into play. Whenever a player casts an instant or sorcery spell that targets only a single Golem, that player copies that spell for each other Golem that spell could target. Each copy targets a different one of those Golems.

THIS has huge potential to be broken. The mana cost is a big barrier but I can see a dragon stompy shell with 8 double lands,chrome mox, mana monkeys, seething song, chalice of the void, rakdos pit dragon, any broken red pump spells i'm missing? I could imagine a much more combo style red stompy build which abuses challice/trini/moons to get through/bait counters/removal then force pitdragon/golem through. Big pump spell + double striking dragon/golem= insta kill. Golem also enables metalcraft- mox opal, but thats fringe playable as it doesn't contribute to turn 1/2 explosiveness.

EDIT: Only red pump I can think off is bloodlust, which is auto GG with golem for 21 damage. With helbent rakdos + 3 more mana, its 20 damage. "

thoughts?

0dysseus

09-14-2010, 07:10 AM

Double striking dragon is ALREADY an instant kill! And just imagine a single Krosan Grip killing all 3 Golems! Cute. Why play 3 vulnerable 3/3 Golems and not play a 4/5 Arc-Slogger who kills your opponent's "Golems"?
Try it if you like, but remember that Bloodlust needs a threat to work. A threat doesn't need Bloodlust to work.

martyr

09-14-2010, 01:43 PM

You could always side out the Golems in game 2. It wouldn't void your opponent's removal, but few decks run mainboard answers to artifacts other than Trygon or Quasali Pridemage, and the Golem doesn't get eaten by them so hard as by real removal.

Tacosnape

09-14-2010, 02:10 PM

martyr

09-14-2010, 02:34 PM

I actually sort of agree with Precursor Golem's potential for complete absurdity, except for one problem. Precursor Golem doesn't play nice with Chalice of the Void. Chalice will stop removal aimed at your golem. Chalice will not stop the copies from hitting your baby golems.

Granted, you get 6 life or 2 basic lands if they STP or Path the thing under a Chalice for 1, but you're still re-enabling otherwise dead cards.

Nonetheless, I'll be testing this. My gut feeling is that its place is actually in some other color chalice aggro (Green) and not here, but there's a lot of potential for craftiness here.

You're kind of enabling dead cards, and kind of not. Say you have a Chalice out @1 and play this dude. Opponent can either deal with 9 power of attackers (probably not good), or can shave off 6 and give you 6 life, or 2 basic lands, or just bolt them (better)...but you still have 3 power. So, while a 5 mana 3/3 that ramps you two lands or gains you 6 life isn't amazing, it's those games when they don't have removal that it really shines.

mercs

09-14-2010, 05:25 PM

This set has been very generous to Dragon stompy.

so the 3 cards in contention are:

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=110589&d=1284437147 http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=110398&d=1284004936 http://forum.tcgplayer.com/showthread.php?t=238704

These 3 cards have huge potential in DS. Of course, we will see which one can last the test of time, and only one will probably meet full time MD status as a standard build (or maybe i can be wrong).

Here's my 2 cents on each:

koth:
+++ Strong, easy to fall in love with. Incredible ultra and versatility to get u out of tuff spots. awesome cmc.
_ _ _ Has potential to put u in a bad mana position if mountains die. the 1st and third ability might be weakened w/ unresolved moons.

precursor:
+++ Amazing combo potential. I've actually played with blazing shoal to ramp up hellbent dragon b4. It does help a little when u can get t3 dragon kill when u shoal a raiders or slogger. Shoaling a raiders on this guy is a smooth 24 damage. not too shabby.
_ _ _ One bolt can end it all. As for the pte/stp argument, the single removal would kill any 5 cc creature anyways right. I actually see this as a plus, bc DS's biggest mismatch is black, but this really helps against edicts, poxes, and gatekeeper.

Phoenix:
+++ Ok, maybe no one but me likes this lol. But I just think that a 5cc with possible recursion is a nice new mechanic that could be splashed into this deck. keeps the aggro going, some evasion, and can be your out vs sweepers.
_ _ _ Very hard to play. 3 red's means your wishing for seething song a little too much. could hurt hellbent worse than the slogs.

______________________________________

The one issue I have w/ this set is the knock on chalice aggro decks. Do you guys think that if proliferate becomes a legit mechanic that chalice will lose much of the power it used to carry around? The proliferate ability will prob be pushed for the next 3 sets, so hopefully it just stays in the blue realm.

overseer1234

09-14-2010, 10:16 PM

Phoenix:
Will hurt hellbent a lot worse than the slogs.

Fixed this for you.

mercs

09-15-2010, 04:17 AM

Fixed this for you.

Lol yea. i know we gotta stay away from the RRR. i think magic just teases players sometimes trying to get them to play harder cards. that extra card no one's been talking about, but the first two, ppl are definitely considering.

----
edit: u know what. I'm deck testing this, and I actually am not paying the cmc sometimes! If I have the song, great. If i don't i pitch it to mox or raiders. in the grave, i recurr it fairly ok as well for 4 colorless. so not as shabby as i rated it b4. I'm gonna still put it into consideration.

NecroYawgmoth

09-15-2010, 05:48 PM

seems like Koth will be played at least 2 times in each Dragon Stompy version...

Koth will lead back to Seething Songs and Sloggers, which some of us had never cut, while others removed them for constancy reasons and Hellbent issues...

If we would create a "Standard Koth Shell", it would probably look something like this:

standard Koth DS

4 Gathan Raiders
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Arc-Slogger

4 Blood Moon
4 Seething Song
3 Koth of the Hammer

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
3 Trinisphere

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Mountain

1 Slot open for Slogger, Trini, Jitte, whatever

NOW we could exchange Gathans Raiders with Taurean Mauler... both cost 3, both were 2/2, and afterwards mostly 3/3 or more threatening...

RPD could be cut for FTK, Kargan Dragonlord or other stuff... a list could look like something in this direction:

non-Hellbent DS

4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Taurean Mauler
3 Arc-Slogger
3 Flametongue Kavu
2 Kargan Dragonlord

4 Blood Moon
4 Seething Song
3 Koth of the Hammer

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
3 Trinisphere

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Mountain

We should have enough "reach" with this list [3 Sloggers, 3 Koth, 2 Dragonlords], and won't have the problem of losing games like: lose Hellbent cuz of random-Slogger in hand, or lose Hellbent cuz Koth is Legendary in hand, and stuff like that... --> you all know what I mean... Also we don't lose that aggro-part what older "constant lists" had lost in comparison with "standard DS"...

what do you think?

YawG

mercs

09-15-2010, 09:22 PM

Definitely like the the new consistent list.

I'm a little on edge with kargan. He is good, but he doesn't take over games fast enough. Maybe koth will change this.

in terms of the meta, I'm worried we still don't have solid answers for the bigs: emrakul, progenitus, and iona. In the old list, our only hope was to outrun with dragon/hellbent. What should we go for with this list? I just feel that we're getting caught up in revamping this deck, and we're not tailoring it to the current meta.

Captain Hammer

09-16-2010, 11:38 AM

If we would create a "Standard Koth Shell", it would probably look something like this:

standard Koth DS

4 Gathan Raiders
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Arc-Slogger

4 Blood Moon
4 Seething Song
3 Koth of the Hammer

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
3 Trinisphere

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Mountain

1 Slot open for Slogger, Trini, Jitte, whatever

YawG

I think that list looks awesome.

But IMO, with Koth in the deck, that last open slot should absolutely go to the 11th mountain.

0dysseus

09-16-2010, 01:30 PM

I think that list looks awesome.

But IMO, with Koth in the deck, that last open slot should absolutely go to the 11th mountain.

I totally agree with you Cap'n. Playing this list with less than 11+ Mountains = horrible manascrews. You just can't add more expensive cards in a balanced deck without increasing even a little the mana production. You need to cast Koth first to get his mana boosts, remember boys? That's 3x2RR, not 3x2R or 3x3R anymore.

About Kargan and Mauler...they are less aggressive than RPD and Raiders respectively. What I had in mind was to test 1-2 Akromas again. But it's very irritating to rely on a 6 mana ability, and I want 3 Trinispheres in.

@ mercs:
Golem and Phoenix could work against black, but when you play vs. 4 Sinkholes,etc., it's hard to reach even 4 mana. And he won't make you discard your Phoenix. Unless you wait for a Raider (unreliable plan), Phoenix will sit tight in your hand for a long time. Plus...will you have 3 artifacts down to activate the metalcraft ability? I also tried to leave at least 1 SB slot against those black decks you mention. Goblin Assault works very well, if you're lucky and hit your 1-2 copies!

As for the largest creatures, read Tacosnape's first post in page 131 guys..Blasts hit Show and Tell. 4 Crypts/Faeries and Chalices can stop Reanimators (Iona) long enough for you to do your dirty job. And your resolved hellbent dragons of course are faster. Also accept that you can't always win, especially when you don't play first=)

In addition...vs. Emrakul, Progenitus & company...if on the play, I play a first turn Moon and/or a chalice @ 0. No colored mana, no moxes for him(and later for you also, but just make this sacrifice), no lotus petals = no green mana => no Eureka. And Pithing Needle stops Sneak Attack.

A few guys played Mindbreak Trap (SB), as a 1st turn on the draw + anti-combo solution I guess. I like that...but damn, there is hardly any space. Maybe we should dedicate a little bit more thought to sideboard design from now on...specialised and generic sideboards. I wouldn't omit the 4 Needles and the 4 Faeries/Crypts. After these critical 8, I replaced Jaya with a 3rd Pyroblast, and I'm thinking of banning that single Jitte for a 4th Blast. The latter due to the 3+ Sloggers' direct damage and to Koth's ulti. Maybe we can make it quite well even without our old red sweepers (Pyroclasm-kinesis). The rest for me are 2xAnarchy(true love), and 1 Rack and Ruin.

EDIT: Would you play Pyroblast... in order to be able to target any spell or permanent; and so to be able to get rid of it and reach hellbent anytime?
Or Red Elemental Blast which is immune to Misdirection and stupid stuff like that? Remember that we play Trinispheres which hurt Misdirection anyway. On the other hand think that we would sideboard in the Pyroblasts only against blue, so I don't know if finding a random target to empty our hand is really a problem. Maybe against decks splashing 1/3 blue it could be.
For the ones who think I'm raving in chinese, read the second paragraph here: http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/bb4

mercs

09-19-2010, 03:23 AM

@ mercs:
Golem and Phoenix could work against black, but when you play vs. 4 Sinkholes,etc., it's hard to reach even 4 mana. And he won't make you discard your Phoenix. Unless you wait for a Raider (unreliable plan), Phoenix will sit tight in your hand for a long time. Plus...will you have 3 artifacts down to activate the metalcraft ability? I also tried to leave at least 1 SB slot against those black decks you mention. Goblin Assault works very well, if you're lucky and hit your 1-2 copies!

As for the largest creatures, read Tacosnape's first post in page 131 guys..Blasts hit Show and Tell. 4 Crypts/Faeries and Chalices can stop Reanimators (Iona) long enough for you to do your dirty job. And your resolved hellbent dragons of course are faster. Also accept that you can't always win, especially when you don't play first=)

In addition...vs. Emrakul, Progenitus & company...if on the play, I play a first turn Moon and/or a chalice @ 0. No colored mana, no moxes for him(and later for you also, but just make this sacrifice), no lotus petals = no green mana => no Eureka. And Pithing Needle stops Sneak Attack.

EDIT: Would you play Pyroblast... in order to be able to target any spell or permanent; and so to be able to get rid of it and reach hellbent anytime?
Or Red Elemental Blast which is immune to Misdirection and stupid stuff like that? Remember that we play Trinispheres which hurt Misdirection anyway. On the other hand think that we would sideboard in the Pyroblasts only against blue, so I don't know if finding a random target to empty our hand is really a problem. Maybe against decks splashing 1/3 blue it could be.
For the ones who think I'm raving in chinese, read the second paragraph here: http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/bb4

Yea, I still agree that koth is leading the pack well.

As for goblin assault, I think it's awesome against sui black/gate type decks. The decks I'm having trouble with are the eva green/rock type decks. They tend to run a medium amount of basics, and deeds and pulses seem to collapse our softlocks at will. I personally just don't like the idea of not getting a 1/60 sb card to try to take a game. XD

I do the same strategy against show and tell decks. I definitely like my matchup better than eva green.
I'm more afraid of iona in survival builds just bc they can stabilize a situation more, until they ultimately lock the game away.

With more aggressive DS builds, I say pyroblast. In decks that actually do use misdirection, they hate trading attrition against DS. 2 for 1 on pyroblast (which is usually a 3 for 2 in counterwars) puts you in a good place regardless. If your manacurve is high, then I say go for the REB.

Augustas

09-19-2010, 05:40 AM

0dysseus

09-19-2010, 02:14 PM

@ Augustas: ask away...but you'll find no Demidod here:) You don't wanna play spells with more than two red mana in their cost. Read the last pages of the thread to get an idea.

@mercs: I don't like "the idea of not getting a 1/60 sb card to try to take a game" either, but what else can you do if you definitely want 13-14 other certain cards in the SB? If you dislike a match so much, you can only put 1-2 copies of your hatecard in the slots that are left.

It's only natural for decks which run a medium amount of basics to create problems, even more if they belong in the Green-Black area, which Red doesn't hate directly. That's why I tried Aftershock main, to have a generic solution and be able to destroy a basic, but you really can't play more than 2 max without increasing the land count. And if the opponent plays a lot of basics, it won't work as land-destroyer. But I think Koth will be good as an anti Green and Black card, in an indirect way. With his mana boost he should be antagonistic against B & G, his 4/4 elemental is a good rival against early Goyfs and fast black threats, his "Mountain-shooting" can clear out numerous pesky creatures, and he can't be killed with most black removal spells (planeswalker), just like Goblin Assault. Neither the 4/4 can be killed via Wrath effects.

Also listen to this..some guy "Conelead" posted this in another site:
"Both Humility's setting of the p/t to 1/1 and the factory ability's setting of the creature to 2/2 apply in the same layer, thus they are applied in timestamp order. That means Humility will be applied first, then the Factory's activation ability will be applied, making it a 2/2. The other part of Humility still applies as normal, thus Factory is a 2/2 without any abilities. "
Thus,I think Koth beats Humility too...;) However, can a reanimated 4/4 mountain be tapped and produce one more mana in that scenario?

EDIT: For those who love Powder Keg, check out the new artifact, "Ratchet Bomb":
{ 2} (mana cost)
Artifact Rare
{T}: Put a charge counter on Ratchet Bomb.

{T}, Sacrifice Ratchet Bomb, destroy each nonland permanent with converted mana cost equal to the number of charge counters on Ratchet Bomb.

EDIT 2: [Card explanation error removed.]

LostButSeeking

09-19-2010, 04:54 PM

hi guys, i was looking for a thread about demigod stompy but i didnt find it, so since it's kinda similar in a way to dragon stompy i decided to write it here. it looks like a cheap and cool deck, so am i here to ask a few questions about it?

Demigod stompy is an extended port of the legacy deck. It works less well in Legacy than in extended because it relies on ritual effects (desperate Rituals and Rite of Flames), which means that you have to sideboard your trinospheres and chalices. Chalices and Trinospheres are about 10000x more useful in Legacy than in extended, because things like Brainstorm, Swords to Plowshares, Goblin Lackey, exploration and Llanower Elf mean that most decks are heavily reliant on their one drops, which 3spheres and chalices disrupt. Also, the availability of things like Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors gives your artifact disruption more quickly and without the card disadvanage of ritual effects . . . but at the cost of having less red mana. This means that Deus of Calamity is very very poor for Legacy Red Stompy, not because of what he does, but because of his mana cost.

popiezhius

09-20-2010, 01:17 AM

It sweeps one turn slower than Keg (because you need to tap in order to charge it) but it removes anything.
Ratchet bomb is the same speed as keg, RTFC. You may use first counter the next turn You play it.

0dysseus

09-20-2010, 01:50 PM

Ratchet bomb is the same speed as keg, RTFC. You may use first counter the next turn You play it.

You are right, I missed the simple fact that you can tap it on the same turn you play it, in order to put a counter and use it next turn for 1 cmc cards, etc... Same speed with Keg allright. Could you tell us what -RTFC- means friend? I am not familiar with that kind of jargon..

Dark Zero

09-20-2010, 04:21 PM

Could you tell us what -RTFC- means friend? I am not familiar with that kind of jargon..

That means Read The Fuckin Card.

But I'm in doubt if such an aggressive language is really necessary only because someone didn't read a card properly.

0dysseus

09-20-2010, 06:49 PM

That means Read The Fuckin Card.

But I'm in doubt if such an aggressive language is really necessary only because someone didn't read a card properly.

Thanx Dark-0.. I figured out what he meant. I just wanted him to answer and gain even more of his wisdom about deckbuilding.
Mistakes are made even by guys who count 3000+ posts here. If you flame again, I'll have to report you. Please RT#R(ules) before creating an account in a serious site, or just visit 'tube for lots of FF (Flaming Fun!!)

I think Rachet Bomb gives the cheapest access to "remove-everything" (of a certain manacost) for every single-color deck. That's quite revolutionary isn't it? It gives Dragon Stompy the chance to destroy enchantments. Obviously excluding 3 mana cost enchantments and other permanents most of the time, due to your Moons, Magi and Trinispheres.

popiezhius

09-21-2010, 01:11 AM

0dysseus

09-21-2010, 02:04 AM

Sorry guys, I did't mean to be rude. ReadTheFreakingCard means very simple thing - read the card again if You didn't read it properly. So I see no reason to consider someone showing You Your mistake as flaming.
Bomb actually may seem a turn slower than keg at first glance, but it isn't, that is the thing I wanted to show You. Peace .

Well then.. it honors you to say that. It's not that we never say the f-word here. But we kinda omit it when speaking directly to another, especially in the imperative. "That fucking Bomb's as fast as Keg,because you charge it right away!=)", should have been a little nicer, okay?:) Peace mate.

So...will you guys play Rachet Bomb? Could you share your sideboard lists please?

Boots

09-21-2010, 03:59 AM

I think some general thoughts can be reached here to start with. Like Koth is good. So is ratchet bomb.

Yet, there are some things I disagree with. Personally I really dislike Arc Slogger. I honestly prefer continuing experimentation with Lord of Shatterskull Pass and Kazuul. I enjoy what they can do. They scare people well. They do not exile ten cards of my library to to do anything worthwhile.

Though, discussion I would love to see more of is sideboard. Cards like Pyrokinesis and Crypt are fantastic. But still, is relic better than crypt at this point with the cycling ability, or is the activation cost to much?

Again, I like ratchet bomb over powder keg, and it greatly helps fix the power difference in keg and explosives.

Conceptually I love pithing needle and REB, but I have lost count of how many times I have set myself up to counter my own spells, basically chalice or 3sphere give me a dead topdeck. So I wonder what other cards to consider at this point, given the current evolution of decks.

mercs

09-21-2010, 10:10 PM

....

In my testing, shatterskull and kazuul have been a bit of a nuisance. they often are treated as big vanilla bodies. in most games, lord never gets the to the top level unless i pretty much already have the game locked up. kazuul is also on the defensive too much, so i end up waiting until my soft lock gets broken.

With arc- slogger resolved, the tribal matcchup becomes much easier. w/ chalice @1, the zoo matchup becomes easier too. this is not the case with the other two guys. I've always been pro slogger, so i'm probably bias, but I think I'd include lord with slogger rather than replace one with another. :P

As for side board, mine is not concrete right now. I'm constantly debating what to use, but here's a list of stuff i'm currently debating:

pithing needle -- a lot of uses. it's ur only fight against sneak attack and deed. slows survival and is overall versatile.

tormod's crypt -- although relic pwns new horizons and survival madness, chalice @ 1 is usually very important (esp against reanimator and dredge). You have a good matchup against new horizons and survival madness anyways. your main focus should be to resolve a moon and sweep any hierarchs.

pyrokinesis/volcanic fallout -- Some people are taking these out of the list, but imo, i can't readily beat goblins w/o 5-6 of these. merfolk and zoo are ok, but goblins are just a little too good at recovering. some like firespout over VcF, but i like VcF bc it handles merfolk and fearies w/ more assurance and often doubles as a jace killer if jace comes out bouncing.

REB -- many people like this, and i admit it's great against the meta right now. pithing needle and REB's are great against sneaky show and ugly duckling (doomsday emrakul). Also an easy jace killer.

RATCHET BOMB!!! -- easily better than the keg. I'm prob gonna get lots of these bc the markup will be crazy. it can kill enchantments and planswalkers for any color. I'm more scared about facing this than deciding whether to use it.

artifact hate -- I've seen rack and ruin, ingot chewer, and others, but i like shattering spree. just the fact that it's hard to counter, can still get copies around chalice, and can kill multiples, devastating some ppl.

the midline sb cards i don't like but admittedly use:

anarchy -- this is my only real fight against progenitus and enchantress outside of out tempoing them. this ingle handedly won me a tournament. i love it, but also feel like it's such an awkward situational solution.

stingscourger -- this is my only fight against a resolved show n tell => emrakul (other than siding emrakul himself!). I really don't like this one but it works. Got the idea from the tacosnape post. I'd like to find a better soln though.

boil -- Many blue matchups I already feel good against, but once in a while, this seems to help out a lot.

RAkroma -- I've been one of the biggest advocators of akroma, but the game is just so fast right now. Against progenitus, this would be nice, going head to head, but against emrakul, it's death. Akroma has saved me more than a few times against an iona beating tho.

i think i'm missing a few, but hope this helps. Currently, I'm using:

3 pithing needle
3 pyrokinesis
2 volcanic fallout
3 tormod's crypt
2 anarchy
2 shattering spree

Again, not the best, but hopefully i'll find a consistent list.

0dysseus

09-21-2010, 11:02 PM

@ Boots:

I don't like 4 copies of Arc-Slogger too much either, but playing none seems to me like a horrible idea.

Kazuul is good but situational. What if you play against an opponent who has no creatures -or just a few- and has almost always 3 mana to pay? After my testing I saw that Kazuul's ability gives the opponent the choice to deactivate it or not. It works in the early game when he has no mana to spare, or if he plays a weenie deck, but again, an early game Slogger is creature & removal, 2 in 1. And against a weenie deck...well you know. In the lategame, would you prefer to create the perfect defense? I'd prefer to clear the path to victory -or just deal 6-8 direct dmg to the other player and finish him. I know that after exiling 40 cards you're exhausted, but so should be the opponent, and even more if you play it well.

I'm afraid I didn't catch your meaning here: "But still, is relic better than crypt at this point with the cycling ability, or is the activation cost to much?" Could you please explain? What cycling ability are you referring to? Do you mean Relic of Progenitus' activation cost?

If you want to play other creatures as well, you can try my test list: 19 Lands, 4 Moxes, 3 Trinis, 4 Chalices, 8 Moons, 4 Songs, 4 Simians, 4 Raiders, 3 Koths, and then 3 RPDs, 1 Akroma in the 4th Dragon's place, and instead of 3 Sloggers put only 1 plus 1 Lord and 1 Kazuul. Then just estimate what would happen if an PRD came instead of Akroma. Do the same with the trio: Kaz, Slog and Lord. When you draw one of them, would you rather have one of the other two, and which? Or compare Lord with the Dragons and Akroma with the 3RRs. You'll see that you'd prefer to have an RPD most of the time and a castable Slogger. Do you think a good player in a tournament will be scared if he has no reason to be really scared? :-)

@ mercs:

I understand Faerie Macabre doesn't ruin an opponent's Threshold when he has 9+ cards in the graveyard, but FM does some swift unexpected tricks. If no one plays it, can you tell me what I'm doing wrong?:) I'm trying a 3 Faerie and 1 Crypt split now. The idea is to get one of the Faeries early game (which I prefer) and the (less possible to draw)Crypt can bomb a larger graveyard later. That's just a tiny detail. Also, do you like REBs -and not Pyroblasts- for a specific reason?

I'm testing Red Akromas again, now with Koth -as you see above. It sure works better than before.

Why did you say that Volcanic Fallout "doubles as a jace killer if jace comes out bouncing"? Am I missing a rule here?

Anarchy is good versus Enchantress, but beware of Karmic Justice.

Stingscourger can be good against many a creature,not only Emrakul.. Countryside Crushers, Blazing Archons(if you've ruined his search engine), Tombstalkers, etc...

mercs

09-22-2010, 01:22 AM

@ Boots:

@ mercs:

I understand Faerie Macabre doesn't ruin an opponent's Threshold when he has 9+ cards in the graveyard, but FM does some swift unexpected tricks. If no one plays it, can you tell me what I'm doing wrong?:) I'm trying a 3 Faerie and 1 Crypt split now. The idea is to get one of the Faeries early game (which I prefer) and the (less possible to draw)Crypt can bomb a larger graveyard later. That's just a tiny detail. Also, do you like REBs -and not Pyroblasts- for a specific reason?

I'm testing Red Akromas again, now with Koth -as you see above. It sure works better than before.

Why did you say that Volcanic Fallout "doubles as a jace killer if jace comes out bouncing"? Am I missing a rule here?

Anarchy is good versus Enchantress, but beware of Karmic Justice.

Stingscourger can be good against many a creature,not only Emrakul.. Countryside Crushers, Blazing Archons(if you've ruined his search engine), Tombstalkers, etc...

I actually have no prob with the macabre. looks like creative tech actually that i might try myself. Again, I definitely missed some of the sb options.

As for REB's, I actually don't mind either. If you're debating about the misdirection/hellbent issue, just go with pyroblast. Misdirection is SO situational and mostly noninfluential. Most ppl see DS and think the only thing to misdirect is a slogger shot, which isn't worth 2 cards to them, so it usually won't see much against u. As for hellbent, that's a solid mechanic u know u want in ur deck, so it's always good to have that option.

I've always kept one rakroma main, but ditched one from the side. haven't tested koth yet, but would like too. :D

As for jace, u can redirect player damage. Usually against landstill or whatever the deck may be, I'll have a few creatures out (or maybe just one influential one like rpd) and they'll drop jace and bounce rpd, leaving him at 2. Since vcf hits players, i just throw the 2 damage at the jace in uncounterable fashion. doesn't happen all the time, but sometimes a guy let's shots get to jace also believing it won't die (until it does).

Funny u bring up karmic justic, i had the enchantress guy overcommit even w/ kJ, and anarchy led to his decking! haha but yea, anarchy can be a savior so i just can't let go...

as for stingscouger, ur right. I've actually faced eon bridge where the stingscourger caught a dreadnaught too.:P I just don't know what I'd take out for him. *sigh* i even tried running him main to see if he was ok.

cheezyhead

09-22-2010, 02:16 AM

What you guys think of this card?:
http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/products/scarsofmirrodin/1wxbsvgyj2_en.jpg

Does it have potential to this deck?

thanks!

0dysseus

09-22-2010, 03:13 AM

mercs

09-22-2010, 10:53 AM

Bahh...metalcraft. I disliked the card the moment I saw that word, without reading the rest of the text. If you try it with Precursor Golem maybe..but otherwise it won't work at all mate. Try it and see for yourself.

@ mercs:

About Karmic Justice..if you play Anarchy while KJ is down you will lose as many nonland permanents as you destroy, right? "I just don't know what I'd take out for him." -> Thinkin' the same thing. I don't know if I should be bothered more with matchups that depend most on who plays first.

Aren't you afraid without a full set of Needles and Crypts in your sb? Of course you have mass damage removal, which I don't have. I just hope Koth will work good enough without removal support in the goblin matchup (& weenie decks generally). I am a little worried that he'll get beaten up by one of the many silly gobbos which will bypass our fewer creatures. If we manage to get the emblem though...now that should be lots of fun. If only Wizards increased the sideboard size...

EDIT: I think Stingscourger also beats Exhume, if the opponent hasn't got any shroud creatures in his graveyard, eh? I don't remember well if the opponent chooses which of the two creatures will come in first! If they are reanimated simultaneously, Stingy finds a target, doesn't he? I'll try and make some room for that guy. Aside from dealing with some titans, I can see him playing half the role of Pyrokinesis-clasm/V.Fallout by bouncing AND blocking(-possibly killing) a second small creature. That's possibly a good tempo gain against weenies too.

yea man, i know karmic justice. the time it didn't matter was because he was stabilizing on 5 cards in his deck and 7 enchantess effects still on board so anarchy put him in a position where he had no out, and playing another anchantment would deck him. In the end, if he's got a bunch of angels ready to kill u, u really have no choice but to anarchy. if your lucky, u'll get stuff back from o rings.

with my removaal, i'm not afraid of goblins. w/o my removal, i'm terrified (same goes for elves and empty the warrens). I've never had a problem running 3 crypts. I like my dredge matchup a lot. The only matchups i don't like are rock survival builds and aggro loam bc their grave can be annoying, but they don't rely solely on the grave,

As for pithing needle, I'm ok. I had success w/ o it too. I like it, but i've never had moments where i was just wowed by it. mainly bc ppl will always sb artifact hate on DS, so pithing needle is just another soft lock until u throw down a threat.

and yea, the creature's hit simultaneously, and the triggers are stacked, so stingscourger will find a target. as for him replacing a removal, i'd replace pyrokinesis b4 volcnic fallout, but in general i'd be hesitant to even do that :P

makochman

09-30-2010, 05:14 AM

Is anyone else testing Masticore 3.0 ?

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/products/scarsofmirrodin/jcg0cuczlv_en.jpg

I think it could be a viable replacement for Arc-Slogger. Like the Slogger, it can hit players. It is almost impossible to kill once you have a Chalice of the Void set at 1. It helps that DS is running up to 24 creatures, some of which (Magus of the Moon, Simian Spirit Guide) have little impact in the late game and can happily be pitched. It does however die to Krosan Grip and is not so good in multiples.

What does The Source think?

Jelmerz77

09-30-2010, 09:16 AM

I don't think that this will be a serious and viable replacement for Arc-Slogger (I personally don't want more than 3 Arc-Sloggers but it still wins me games)

There is 1 BIG reason why and that is Hell Bent (Or actually this card seriously screwing Hell Bent for you)

TheSleeper

09-30-2010, 06:03 PM

I think someone asked if you can tap a 4/4 koth-land for mana with humility out -> believe the answer is a no.

mercs

10-04-2010, 05:23 PM

Hey, I was wondering how ppl's testing of koth has been going.

For me, not so well. I feel like he's win more, and even though i thought his ultimate would be a beast, it actually doesn't seem that great. With our moxes, songs, simians, tombs and cities, the only time koth's ultimate goes crazy is late game or when you have well established moon effects.

I could discuss more about it, but I wanna see how everyone else feels.

Alexeezay

10-05-2010, 03:12 AM

the same for me, mercs.
we should give kuldotha phoenix and/or precursor golem a try.

Tacosnape

10-05-2010, 02:34 PM

the same for me, mercs.
we should give kuldotha phoenix and/or precursor golem a try.

No. No you shouldn't. Kuldotha Phoenix isn't even in the top 50 of things competing for creature slot #6. Card's seriously terrible. And Precursor Golem negates the fact that you stopped all their 1-drop removal with Chalice of the Void.

You're focusing too much on Koth's ultimate. Koth's a guy who does a very good job at fixing your manabase and also gives you a few threats if you're light on them. He's still the #6 guy in the deck behind Dragon, Gathan, Magus, SSG, and Slogger, but so far in my testing he blows all the other #6 guys out of the water.

If you really want a different #6 guy, get somebody weird who solves a metagame problem, like Scalding Salamander (Decent against ETW, Goblins, Elves), or just run a really solid 2-drop like Kargan Dragonlord.

NecroYawgmoth

10-05-2010, 03:59 PM

:laugh::laugh::laugh:LOL @ Scalding Salamander... I actually need to read up what it does xD... You are my new hero :laugh::laugh::laugh:

Phoenix is bad... Very bad... even Hunted Dragon is better, and hes bad, also... Golem is a funny card, but not for competive play, IMO

What's so bad on Koth?
I agree on everything Taco said...

He fixes mana, can help to get Hellbent, has good Aggro-potiential and his Ultimate easily finishes the lategame [which is one of Dragon Stompys BIG weaknesses]. You won't need to focus on the Emblem in earlygame, cuz the other abilitys are good enough...

----> 2RR ----> 4/4 Haste, with an very good gamewinning ability isn't bad...
Some guys liked Shatterskull [including me], and he's ---->3R ----> 3/3, next turn +1R ----> 6/6... That is worse than Koth, and you guys played him...

Don't say he is winmore... We are an All-In-Hellbent-based Aggro Deck, with cards like RPD who can swing for 14, whatever... How could there be anything that's more winmore than this?

Oh, and btw -> The Koth-animated Humility-Mountain can't produce R if its still relevant.

Jelmerz77

10-05-2010, 06:52 PM

mercs

10-06-2010, 06:27 AM

I totally agree with Taco and Yawgmoth, this card is a serious threat that our opponent has to answer, this is finally the 4th bomb (not counting Magus beat-down for the win :P)

But I really like it's potential. :)

I realize the benefits of koth, but I usually find that koth is pretty soft when i get him out. It's not like jace where u start bouncing brainstorming or seriously disrupting draws. Usually, I can get off one or 2 strike of the 4/4 and the mana ability. In the early to mid-game, koth generally only nets me up to 3 extra red. I say he's soft bc many guys just take the 4 and beat him up. as for the mana effect, that just kind of makes him feel like an expensive seething song.

Again, I know koth is good, but there were many times when I ran into scenarios like :
1. I wanna drop a big 1st turn with ancient tomb/mox/song/simian, but koth can't activate anything since i don't have any mountains
2. I wanna go hellbent, but I don't wanna play another koth just to do it and lose both koths.
3. I drop a koth and animate my mountains just to have them die by removal. I can use the ultimate, but now i'm low on lands.
4. I don't use the second ability bc I only actually have 1 or 2 mountains accompanied by moxes, cities, and tombs
5. I only have koth left against a medium fatty. instead of trading, the guy just takes the damage and kills koth next turn. ultimately leaving me with board disadvantage.

I'm getting a bit repetitive, but I hope u guys get what i mean. Early game, I would want almost any other creature/threat. (including mauler, Lord of shatterskull, or that salamander taco suggested haha)

late game, koth will never turn the corner for u like slogs or rpd does. even the lord seems to turn the corner late game.

ONLY in the mid /late mid game do i see koth shine and that's still just seldomly. I asked myself, "in these situations, could I have won if i drew some vanilla fatty?" and the answer is usually yes. Again, I hate the fact that many times, koth just feels like a 4/4 haste that dies next turn.

I know some ppl are in love with this guy, but in my testing (I went through a good 75 matches) I realized that koth was very underwhelming compared to jace, elspeth, and some of the other options DS is looking at.**

* Some ppl are gonna tell me not to compare this to jace/elspeth in terms of utility, but I figure if i'm gonna drop $150 / 3 of these, I will compare :P

* I realize that precursor golemn and phoenix aren't the answer either. I'm just not very sold on koth tbh.

Jelmerz77

10-06-2010, 10:46 AM

I don't have all the wisdom, and I certainly dont want to tell you, you played it wrong. But some of the 5 points you mentioned strike me as odd.

1. I wanna drop a big 1st turn with ancient tomb/mox/song/simian, but koth can't activate anything since i don't have any mountains

If Koth is the only threat in your hand that you can play shouldn't you have mulled in the first place? And unless you know what your playing isn't a lockpiece a better option?

2. I wanna go hellbent, but I don't wanna play another koth just to do it and lose both koths.

You want to go Hellbent with a Koth out and a second Koth at hand? Isn't Koth in play than most likely at level 4 or 5? When at 5 going Ultimate and playing Koth nr 2 doesn't seem too bad.

3. I drop a koth and animate my mountains just to have them die by removal. I can use the ultimate, but now i'm low on lands.

Yes you have a valid point here, making the mountain a manland makes us vulnerable to spotremoval "landdestruction" a lockpiece could work arround it offcourse.

4. I don't use the second ability bc I only actually have 1 or 2 mountains accompanied by moxes, cities, and tombs

That is situational, if activating the second ability means that you can do 2 more actual double strike damage with RPD then you would be happy. Not all our cards work at the same level in each situation and against different decks. (Playing a first turn blood moon or magus against a guy that plays mono also makes me feel silly but it still happens)

5. I only have koth left against a medium fatty. instead of trading, the guy just takes the damage and kills koth next turn. ultimately leaving me with board disadvantage.

Well yes but now the Koth takes damage that otherwise would have ended upon your head, so in that case Koth will probably give you an extra turn (maybe even 2) And he didn't take out your land.

But doesn't have our deck a certain part that is unstable? I don't think that without sacrificing some of our explosiveness we can get rid of this (and I don't think we should) I think we should accept that sometime our deck blows out like a candle in the wind, while in other cases you go off like a madman and the opponent wondered WTF hit him and what happened to game 1.

NecroYawgmoth

10-06-2010, 12:22 PM

I'm getting a bit repetitive, but I hope u guys get what i mean. Early game, I would want almost any other creature/threat. (including mauler, Lord of shatterskull, or that salamander taco suggested haha)

What's so bad on a 2nd turn hasty 4/4? The first ability also can manafix if you don't want to attack.

late game, koth will never turn the corner for u like slogs or rpd does. even the lord seems to turn the corner late game.

He will... ever played a game with Koth Emblem and 5 or 6 Mountains due to Blood Moon... It just turns the deck controlish, then

@Jelmerz77 thanks a lot, somehoe I was too lazy to write such a wall of text =P

Ozymandias

10-06-2010, 02:43 PM

I figure that we need to look at why this deck does what it does, and how Koth fits into that. The goal is to drop a turn 1 disruption permanent down, followed shortly by a big beater to end the game before your opponent can free himself and actually win. So, let's start with the core lock pieces

4 Blood Moon
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Trinisphere
I am pretty sure you always want a Moon t1 when you play Dragon Stompy-otherwise, why did you choose this deck for your metagame? So, 8 it is. Chalice is also predatory to Legacy's mana curves, and I think 2Trinisphere to get you to a six-sevenths chance of having a lock piece in your opener is also a necessary evil. Now, to cast Moon on t1, we need red acceleration. But it can't cost 1, or it will conflict with Chalice too much. :2:-lands are a major help here, and seething song is one of your only hopes of dropping multiple lock pieces or lockpiece+beater turn 1. We will fill the rest of our manabase out with cards that work well under Blood Moon, or more properly, won't be totally screwed by it. Hence, the humble basic mountain. We can't afford to see too much mana over the course of the game, or we will flood out and die, but we do always want a mountain or mox for a red mana source in the opener, so 10-11 (93%-94% probability of opening on one of those or a Monkey) is probably the right number. All told, that's 30 mana sources, albeit 4 that double as creatures. Our current core list stands at:

4 Blood Moon
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Trinisphere
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Chrome Mox
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Seething Song
10 Mountain

That's already 44 cards, so our latitude is somewhat constrained. Now, you'll notice that in our mad dash for speed, we are going to be emptying our hand rather quickly, and since we have no source of actual card advantage (plenty of virtual, however) it is likely to stay that way. This directs us towards our ideal beaters: Gathan Raiders and Rakdos Pit Dragon. Both of these are amazing with depleted hands. Now we are up to 52 cards. Given that we have a surfeit of mana, and oftentimes have trouble dealing with decks that are unaffected by Blood Moon, we should pick a card that can do effective things with surplus mana, and handles those decks well. In the current metagame, those decks are mostly mono-colored Tribal Aggro. Our old friend Arc-Slogger recommends himself as a pretty good choice here, though he's bad in multiples so we only really want 3. This gets us to 19 creatures and 55 cards. We still have the problem of threat-lightness and to a lesser extent mana flood. Let's look at our options for the last 5 slots

Mountain (1-of)
Pros-makes openers better at making red
Cons-not really a great topdeck except on turn 2 or 3 when you are entering the second phase of the plan, because it's not a threat

Trinisphere (3rd and 4th copies_
Pros- Increases your chances of dropping a t1 lockpiece, beats Storm on its own (which earns it 4 copies in the 75).
Cons-Terrible in multiples, a bad topdeck, not a threat.

Jitte
Pros-Turns your vanilla 2/2 like SSG into actual threats, and an active one gives you hope vs. Tribal
Cons-not a threat itself, conflicts with chalice at 2

Powder Keg/Ratchet Bomb
Pros-Answers resolved threats that can occasionally slip in under your lock pieces
Cons-Not a threat, kind of slow to answer.

Taurean Mauler (2 or 3)
Pros: Easy to cast
Cons: really uninspiring as a threat. Not a fast clock and no extra abilities. Dies to any removal more threatening than Shock.

Karrgan Dragonlord
Pros: An extremely good mana sink, plays very well with t1 Seething Song
Cons: RR is sometime difficult to come by, conflicts with Chalice at 2, vulnerable before leveling

Sulfur Elemental
Pros: Easy to cast, breaks through counter walls.
Cons: In this metagame essentially a vanilla 3/2.

Akroma, Angel of Fury.
Pros: Beats decks with swords as their removal singlehandedly, easy to morph down
Cons: Do you have a seething song? If not, hello Gray Ogre!. Vulnerable in her cocoon.

Koth of the Hammer
Pros: Doesn't die to creature kill, is effectively a 3-turn clock, allows you to cast other cards with him
Cons: Bad in multiples, harder to cast than anything else on the list, bad facing down any opposing creature, plays poorly with your manabase sans Moon

At this point, I think you really need at least 16 threats that aren't SSG (since you need to pitch him a lot) so you can open on one over 90% of the time , and since Magus isn't exactly the big beats either, that means that you essentially have 11 dudes at the moment. Right now, I'm interested in Koth because it allows you to diversify your threat base, but people should make that determination based on their metagame.

mercs

10-06-2010, 04:43 PM

If Koth is the only threat in your hand that you can play shouldn't you have mulled in the first place? And unless you know what your playing isn't a lockpiece a better option?

I was just trying to explain a sense of emptiness by himself. Sometimes a mana base of tomb/city with a mox is very sufficient. we can song/morph/ ssg the more expensive threats. With koth, sometimes i don't want to throw him out bc i won't be able to ramp him up and he''ll just die. So even when i throw down some lock pieces, unless it's a moon, koth stays inactive. Overall, about the mulling thing, if i have a decent hand full of trini's and chalices and the manabase described b4, i wouldn't want to mull just for koth (and those times, i have to wait for him to be usefull). If i had a bunch of lands, mana excellerators, and koth, then yea, i would mull.

You want to go Hellbent with a Koth out and a second Koth at hand? Isn't Koth in play than most likely at level 4 or 5? When at 5 going Ultimate and playing Koth nr 2 doesn't seem too bad.

mainly since he's a big midrange guy, i find myself playing the hellbent creatures first (ie. i'd throw out a raider/ dragon if a goyf/kotr/mongrel etc was on board first bc koth would likely die next turn) this leaves me running out the koths later, but they tend not to ramp up to 5 fast enough. 3 turns is actually quite a while in dragon stompy time imo.

That is situational, if activating the second ability means that you can do 2 more actual double strike damage with RPD then you would be happy. Not all our cards work at the same level in each situation and against different decks. (Playing a first turn blood moon or magus against a guy that plays mono also makes me feel silly but it still happens)

i agree. there are times that the mana acceleration really makes rpd or even rakroma(when i play it in the deck) pretty crazy.

Well yes but now the Koth takes damage that otherwise would have ended upon your head, so in that case Koth will probably give you an extra turn (maybe even 2) And he didn't take out your land.

More specifically, I meant that in a trade, both of us lose a creature, but in this scenario, they lose 4 life and i lose koth, but they still have the creature(s). u see what i mean?

But doesn't have our deck a certain part that is unstable? I don't think that without sacrificing some of our explosiveness we can get rid of this (and I don't think we should) I think we should accept that sometime our deck blows out like a candle in the wind, while in other cases you go off like a madman and the opponent wondered WTF hit him and what happened to game 1.

haha agreed.

mercs

10-06-2010, 04:56 PM

What's so bad on a 2nd turn hasty 4/4? The first ability also can manafix if you don't want to attack.
nothing's wrong, but just by himself, he tends to take a beating at times.

He will... ever played a game with Koth Emblem and 5 or 6 Mountains due to Blood Moon... It just turns the deck controlish

In terms of turning the corner, I mean situations like when u only have chalice at one and ur facing down a trio of guys like 3 gobs/ merfolk/etc. Best case scenario u have decent life (at low life u might be dead either way)

with slogs, u just turned the corner and gained control bc u'd pwn all of them.
with rpd and all the mountains u have, u pwn them w/ an alpha strike.
with koth, u can make a 4/4 and he dies when u pass.

I realize that his ultimate is great lategame, but I'm suggesting more of what's better as a late game topdeck. It takes 3 turns to ramp up koth and activate ultimate. so far, i've never turned the corner with koth. For me, his late game ultimate comes out when i'm already dominating the game. I almost feel sometimes like i use it when i want to slap my opponent in the face. haha

mercc

10-08-2010, 12:19 PM

I'm just gonna lay out a new discussion since the current one with Koth is going nowhere, or atleast showing bad results.

How about flametongue kavu in the "new" creature meta?

NecroYawgmoth

10-08-2010, 01:58 PM

mercs

10-09-2010, 04:08 AM

I am playing FTK for a long time as a 3 or 4 -off in DS, and liked it...

Koth isn't bad... It gives the deck more stability and so many more...

I really don't know why everyone here finds him that bad... He was awesome in all my testings...

I also agree that flametongue is very useful now that gobs/merfolk are doing very well in this meta. also great card advantage against zoo.

don't worry about the koth thing yawg. i think it's like slogger. half will love, half will hate. tbh, he is good in a lot of ways. I would like to take advantage of his abilities better, so maybe ppl will think of a version that suites his abilities better like when jace was inserted into BGU landstill.

0dysseus

10-12-2010, 09:35 AM

In the end Koth is great...as long as you can defend him. That's easy vs creatureless decks, and not vs. Goblins and Merfolk for example, which are both "decks to beat". Now that both of these decks are so strong, and after revisiting deckcheck and seeing that many successful lists contain equipments, maybe it's time to use Sword of Fire and Ice once again. It's ideal vs Gobbos and Merfolk. Many people play these 2 decks. And it turns our 8 vanillas into real threats. That's a pseudo-creature-increase after all, along with the card drawing. Also don't forget that the +2/+2 practically helps vs any weenie deck.

I'll roll back to an old list. 10 Mountains, 3 Moons, 3 Trinis, 2 Aftershocks (yes they do help a lot), 2 Sloggers, 2 Lords of shatterskull pass (bye bye uncastability, and this is a three turn clock also), and 2 Swords, without Jitte right now. Laugh all you want with the Aftershocks. If you play 11 Mountains and you want to try something different, try 3 of them in the Koth slots just for fun and see how many uses you can find. Yes it's suicide sometimes, but so are 4 Sloggers for instance, when you can't cast them. Some dudes tried maindeck removal, Powder Kegs and stuff and it wasn't bad. Aftershock finishes whatever evades Chalice and Moons plus that it gives you another timewalk sometimes with Trinisphere in game, destroying that fetched basic or Mox, 2 in 1. I may have been lucky with this, but I'll just keep testing, while I wait for Koth's price to decrease, and think if I like Koth better in the sideboard.

ForlornEgoist

10-15-2010, 12:10 AM

How about flametongue kavu in the "new" creature meta?

I've been running Flamteongue Kavu alongside Pyrokinesis in my SB for quite some time. They can be incredible in that they solve one of DS's greatest weaknesses: lack of targeted removal. However, neither of which earns itself a MD slot.

Pyrokinesis for obvious reasons in that if they're running 1 or 2 big creatures you're essentially doing a 2-for-1 trade which, although granting Hellbent, isn't always the best option. With Kavu, the problem is that his ability isn't a "may," effect. So, if you run into that random instance where an opponent has no creatures on the board (which I do occassionally) then if ETB you're required to snipe one of your own creatures.

I think both are definitely solid SB pieces (I myself run 3/4 split on Kavu/Kinesis) but spot removal isn't always necessary against every deck.

Forlorn Egoist

Tacosnape

10-15-2010, 10:11 AM

Again, I know koth is good, but there were many times when I ran into scenarios like :
1. I wanna drop a big 1st turn with ancient tomb/mox/song/simian, but koth can't activate anything since i don't have any mountains
2. I wanna go hellbent, but I don't wanna play another koth just to do it and lose both koths.
3. I drop a koth and animate my mountains just to have them die by removal. I can use the ultimate, but now i'm low on lands.
4. I don't use the second ability bc I only actually have 1 or 2 mountains accompanied by moxes, cities, and tombs
5. I only have koth left against a medium fatty. instead of trading, the guy just takes the damage and kills koth next turn. ultimately leaving me with board disadvantage.

Addressing these points:

1. Imprint Koth or mulligan. You didn't really think having Lord of Shatterskull Pass in this situation would go the distance very often, did you? Slogger and Dragon have a much better chance, and you should still be running these.

2. Cut down on your Koths. After a lot of testing I liked 2 better than 3, because hitting a pair of them is ass. Also, Gathan Raiders. Also, using Koth's -2 to get mana to play the second Koth is an option.

3. Chalice for 1 or Trinisphere to take more removal out of the game. And don't animate your mountains if you can't afford to have them die. Also, going up to 11 mountains in the deck's been decent for me.

4. You dont understand the second ability. The second ability is the perfect complement to the first ability. Either you get the DS hand that's struggling to play all of its shit, and even 1-2 red mana off it lets you ramp out Sloggers or pump Dragons or whatever, or you get the DS hand that's got too much mana and you Koth them in the face. Also, Cities and Tombs are moxes if you hit one of your eight moon effects.

5. This is the most valid of all your complaints. This is also the drawback I run into on occasion, and the only scenario where I want a different threat and concede that the people playing Lord of Shatterskull Ass have something going for them. In some metagames for this reason I might still take Kargan Dragonlord as my 6th over Koth.

mercs

10-15-2010, 04:18 PM

Addressing these points:

1. Imprint Koth ....

Thx tacos. I agree a lower koth number works a little better. Sort of in the same way i use jitte in this slot. I discussed these pts with jelmer above, and i agree that koth has a lot of upside that comes w/ his downsides. As for the Lord comments, I'm not really a shatterskull player either haha. I was griping bc I wanted koth to be very substantially better than the other options (almost like jace), but i see that I'm being pretty greedy. Since koth's pricetag has already dropped massively in one month, I guess i can invest in a few to try out later, but for now I'm gonna keep him off my list for a little longer.

As for ftk, I like him, but right now he's not in my list either. The biggest plus that I experience is when he tags down the trygon predators that i've been seeing a lot more of recently.

On a side note: has anyone successfully implemented stingscourger? I'm feeling like the sneaky show mu is pretty rediculous, especially now that some are adding 1-2 Through the Breach. Personally, I'm just going to strengthen my other matchups and scoop to Sneaky show.

Tacosnape

10-15-2010, 07:12 PM

Strangely, my plan against Sneak and Tell, or whatever it's called, is actually to try to race. It's not a -good- plan, but there really aren't a ton of good plans. If you're anticipating it, then yes, run Stingscourger in your board. He shifts in and out of mine depending on metagame, but he's also a great solution to abnormally large ground guys.

If you're not packing Scourgers, all is not lost. Sneak Attack goes down to Pithing Needle (Which you should be running four of in board if you don't like getting steamrolled by Vengevine Survival), meaning Show and Tell is actually your real problem. Unfortunately most of your maindeck hate doesn't really do much here. Show and Tell is hard to stop. Scourger is by far your best option.

FTK, to me, is a sideboard card. If the metagame demands he go to maindeck, I just pick up a different deck.

Masamune

10-19-2010, 08:54 AM

Hi guys, I'm here to discuss this deck and I have many subjects to share, I think it is relevant to everyone:

1) I have a single FTK in my hand and in play a Gathan Raiders morphed already. Can I play FTK targeting Gathan without it dies?
2) Blood moon in play. I have a Zoetic Carvern in table face-down. Can I use morph abilitiy? If humility can stomp morph creatures, can a Blood moon screw Zoetic?
3) Is Jaya Balard a good option to test in DS? Strong against merfolks, standstills, Minds Sculptor and help us to Hellbent faster.
4) Trinisphere in play. If 3sphere screw FoW so can it screw Pyrokinesis? I must to pay 3 to play it right?
5) Koth can turn a non-basic land controlled by the opponent when a Magus is in play and FTK can destroy it :D anyone read TARGET mountain? Beyond this with ultimate ability Koth and Moon togheter can destroy opponent lands. It is not a good option afterall for sure but is a option, because we prefer kill just now than extend more.
6) it is true that the morph ability does not go to the stack? In other words my opp can't kill my GR with a Lightning Bolt when I discard a card right?

I'd love it if someone could answer :D
BTW:

FTK, to me, is a sideboard card. If the metagame demands he go to maindeck, I just pick up a different deck.

What deck?

makochman

10-19-2010, 11:03 AM

Hi guys, I'm here to discuss this deck and I have many subjects to share, I think it is relevant to everyone:

1) I have a single FTK in my hand and in play a Gathan Raiders morphed already. Can I play FTK targeting Gathan without it dies?
2) Blood moon in play. I have a Zoetic Carvern in table face-down. Can I use morph abilitiy? If humility can stomp morph creatures, can a Blood moon screw Zoetic?
3) Is Jaya Balard a good option to test in DS? Strong against merfolks, standstills, Minds Sculptor and help us to Hellbent faster.
4) Trinisphere in play. If 3sphere screw FoW so can it screw Pyrokinesis? I must to pay 3 to play it right?
5) Koth can turn a non-basic land controlled by the opponent when a Magus is in play and FTK can destroy it :D anyone read TARGET mountain? Beyond this with ultimate ability Koth and Moon togheter can destroy opponent lands. It is not a good option afterall for sure but is a option, because we prefer kill just now than extend more.
6) it is true that the morph ability does not go to the stack? In other words my opp can't kill my GR with a Lightning Bolt when I discard a card right?
What deck?
1. Yes, you can play FTK without killing Gathan Raiders.
2. Yes, you can use morph of Zoetic Cavern
3. No, Jaya is not good in DS due to RR in mana cost and a small (albeit shapely!) body
4. Yes, you must pay (3) to play Pyrokinesis
5. Yes, Koth and FTK can do that
6. Yes, Morph does not use the stack BUT you can only use morph when you have priority

If not for the 1RR cost, Jaya might be pretty good. Maybe in some madness deck with Chandra Ablaze. I don't think it would be very competitive though.

Masamune

10-19-2010, 11:51 AM

1. Yes, you can play FTK without killing Gathan Raiders.
2. Yes, you can use morph of Zoetic Cavern
3. No, Jaya is not good in DS due to RR in mana cost and a small (albeit shapely!) body
4. Yes, you must pay (3) to play Pyrokinesis
5. Yes, Koth and FTK can do that
6. Yes, Morph does not use the stack BUT you can only use morph when you have priority

If not for the 1RR cost, Jaya might be pretty good. Maybe in some madness deck with Chandra Ablaze. I don't think it would be very competitive though.

Thanks a lot! :D

0dysseus

10-21-2010, 11:35 PM

Jaya's manacost wasn't the thing that bothered me most when I played her as a 1-of or 2-of. What I didn't like was that I wanted to play most cards I drew, rather than discard them, and thus she was just a 2/2 most of the time. And of course, no comparison to Magus of the Win 2/2. Now that I run 3 Pyroblasts in my sideboard, 2 Equipments main and 2 Aftershocks(also tested as Koth-proxies), I don't use her. Moreover, she is not an answer to Show and Tell.

ivanpei

10-22-2010, 12:05 AM

@ Ozy,

What would you play as your loose 5 slots? I would play the 3rd/4th trini + 3 Koths for a heavy control/blue meta, and 2 Mauler, 3 Jittes for a more tribal/aggro meta. However, if the meta was tribal/aggro, I will NEVER play dragon stompy. Koths are really pricey now though. I'm gonna wait till they dip to snap them up.

Masamune

10-22-2010, 07:12 AM

However, if the meta was tribal/aggro, I will NEVER play dragon stompy

Can you share with us? What deck??

How about Volcanic Fallout in main deck? I hate Gobbos and Merfolks attacking me when I must to play any creature to hold while my life drop quickly...

mercs

10-27-2010, 05:36 PM

I've encountered a big problem, and was hoping if anyone can help me out?

In my meta, merfolk is becoming huge! At first, I thought "great, I love facing merfolk. It's like a 65% MU for me..."

The problem is that merfolk is becoming a lot like thresh, where there isn't just one type (UG, UGB, UGW, can thresh)
Regardless, moon has always been dominating to thresh players, so i didn't worry.

However, merfolk has 4 versions (saito's UB, UR, UG goyf, and UW).
UB: all black sb.
UR: chain's and bolts
UG: goys and grip sb.
UW: swords and ABSOLUTE LAW

So far, the UB is the most common, and the UW comes in second. UB isn't that bad, but I feel UW is an awful MU.
Once an absolute law enters the battlefield, everything goes downhill. Very complicated to beat. I can have more anarchy and akroma in the board, but then i let their army gain so much momentum. UB, UR, and UW are all very aparent in the meta, so I was wondering if there's a decent solution for all of them that doesn't require me making a whole anti merfolk SB. So far, I've only got ratchet bomb, but that hasn't been too amazing. Lemme know what u guys think. Thx.

NecroYawgmoth

10-27-2010, 06:52 PM

Spinal Villain is a cute card against Merfolk =)

but that doesn't help against Absolute Law =(

Never heard that Merfolk plays stuff like that.... that's kinda... disgusting :mad:

mercs

10-28-2010, 12:16 AM

Spinal Villain is a cute card against Merfolk =)

but that doesn't help against Absolute Law =(

Never heard that Merfolk plays stuff like that.... that's kinda... disgusting :mad:

Yea, the spinal villain is always a good slap to the face haha

Mainly, I think green splash and white splash will be the hardest for DS. Mainly bc green can take out the trinis and chalice effectively, while using goys to get around pyrokinesis, pyroclasm/volcanic fallout/firespout, and outsize all of our creatures. White especially will be the harder and more problematic one. It provides the best spot removal against us if we don't hit chalice, and it'll give them a sideboard that's very crushing. Black is actually easier, and red only gets slightly harder. Overall though, merfolk has really grasped my attention lately. I see why it's been going crazy since gp columbus.

0dysseus

10-28-2010, 03:57 AM

[...]

Once an absolute law enters the battlefield, everything goes downhill. Very complicated to beat. I can have more anarchy and akroma in the board, but then i let their army gain so much momentum. UB, UR, and UW are all very aparent in the meta, so I was wondering if there's a decent solution for all of them that doesn't require me making a whole anti merfolk SB. So far, I've only got ratchet bomb, but that hasn't been too amazing. Lemme know what u guys think. Thx.

Aside 4 Pithing Needle, won't 2-3 Anarchy, 4 Pyroblast and 3-4 Tormod's Crypt(anti-Goyf) get the job through? You can always cut Blood Moons down to 3 mainboard, do the same to Trinispheres, and try playing 2-3 Swords of fire and ice. Unmorphed Raiders are colorless but I don't feel that this will help you:) Try Jaya as well if half the opponents are Merfolk. Just thoughts..not things that I've tried for a long time. Our local store doesn't care so much about Legacy, and all I have is workstation. So these are mostly thoughts about your meta...not things that I've tested for a long time. What I know is that Sword ruled vs. Merfolk and Goblins each single time it hit.

Don't you guys board Crypts or Faeries vs Tarmogoyfs?

Spinal Villain is a cute card against Merfolk =)

[...]

And almost only against Merfolk, I would add:)) I'd rather play Jaya instead of him, but then if 5 out of 10 are Merfolk...idk

A problem with many decks is that there is always something missing in the sideboard. Here, the 4 Needles are quite standard; then you'll play 3 Crypts/Faeries for sure; you'll need 3-4 Blasts vs Merfolk and Sneak and Tell...and if you play 2-3 Anarchies as well there's no room for the sweeper or anti-artifact. The only thing that serves both as sweeper and anti-artifact is Ratchet Bomb. But then a sideboard of 4 Needles, 3 Crypts, 2 Anarchies, 3 Blasts and 2 Bombs gets kind of "stuck in the middle". I like decks which always have an answer, but if you play against so much Merfolk, omit sth and specialise heavily if you want to get the 1st place. You'll have to sacrifice some other matchups and cross your fingers after that.

Do you play chalice at 1 or 2 first vs. Merfolk? I prefer Chalice at @2 (Lords, Commanders, Echoing Truth, SG Adept, Daze, Standstill). It also lets you play your Needles and Blasts. The problem is what cards do you take out when you sideboard, if you can practically use all of it.

You think it's a good idea to take your 3-4 Blood Moons out and maybe gain some speed, while letting Pithing Needle take care of Wasteland and Mutavault? Magi out for Pyroblasts then? Because I'd prefer to take out sth selectively to support my fat boys, not play a 2/2 which is extremely useful -but only against half of his lands. I don't take out Trinis for Blasts, due to Force and Daze. Anarchy should definitely replace Koth in my opinion if you face the UW list, unless you manage to Mountain-shoot somehow. And then...I can't think of sth else to take out for the Crypts. You'll be running an extremely low number of threats if you omit more creatures, and I'm not even sure about taking out the Magi.

Tell us how did it go if you please mercs, after you play again.

Masamune

10-28-2010, 09:26 AM

0dysseus

10-28-2010, 08:38 PM

IMO Volcanic fallout(maybe 2 main) + Pirokinesis (maybe 4 SB) can handle enough, but mercs said a interesting thing which we have to consider: splash with Goyf's and Absolute Law. I believe to do the right thing is run Rathet Bomb. Jaya can't handle with all problems like protections and white removals and Sword of Fire and Ice can't kill any merfolk with Law in table...in other words we die before any faster response.... :(

There are two things: Splashed-aggros and Non-splashed-aggros
Important cards that we can never EVER remove against SPLASH (of course depends meta and splash): CoTV, Moons
Important cards that we can never EVER remove against MONO-AGGROs: any creature kill (Volcanic Fallout, Arc-Slogger, Pirokinesis)

I'm starting to like Fire Imp and Rolling Earthquake but RE is being sold on average for more than one hundred dollars... very expensive... extremely nonsense...

Why play Fire Imp and not Kavu -which can kill tarmogoyfs half the times? The one extra colorless mana isn't that much of a problem.

Jaya can't deal with pro-red and white removals, but she shoots as well as being half a Pyroblast. Not the ideal solution okay. About the sword I'm not sure I understand you. Sword gives you pro-blue, your creature passes unblockable(unless he/she has a Mutavault), and then the Sword(not the creature) deals 2 colorless dmg, which can't be prevented by protection:)

Masamune

10-29-2010, 08:42 AM

Why play Fire Imp and not Kavu -which can kill tarmogoyfs half the times? The one extra colorless mana isn't that much of a problem.

Jaya can't deal with pro-red and white removals, but she shoots as well as being half a Pyroblast. Not the ideal solution okay. About the sword I'm not sure I understand you. Sword gives you pro-blue, your creature passes unblockable(unless he/she has a Mutavault), and then the Sword(not the creature) deals 2 colorless dmg, which can't be prevented by protection:)

Fire Imp can kill Nacatl, Merfolks and Goblins turn 1. If we need the creature deal damage in our own creatures, 2 damage is better than 4. Well... this is just a suggestion. On second thought I just prefer yes FTK than IMP, sure thinking against Goyfs but I like most creatures like IMP against Goblins and Merfolks. It all depends I don't know...we need to test...
About Swords I said wrong LOL. I screwed up
Maybe SoFI yes it would be our amazing secret weapon

Masamune

11-05-2010, 10:36 AM

I really need to tell you guys...I tested many times against goblins and also against many other decks like Merfolks, Death and Taxes and some other aggros. Just to give you an idea: I tested 30 times more or less against all of then...

Goblins:
I think the biggest nightmare is Goblin Warchief + other goblins and still if opp play Stingscourger or Gempalm Incinerator, he can kill our Mauler or delay us bouncing Arc-Slogger. Here, the main problem is the speed of the goblins. Doesn't matter if we have in table Mauler or Slogger. Mauler 6/6 or 9/9 is still a single creature with no abilities :( and each time a goblin dies with Slogger, two others appear to piss of! WHAT A BIND! :mad:
If opp plays Vial turn 1, yes...our chance of winning....well... :(
Trinisphere is not a good answer neither a good metagame...
Arc-Slogger is returned to our hand with fucking Stingscourger. If not, we can kill just 3 or 4 creatures which is a little quantity.
Mauler still is a single creature, doing nothing and maybe replaced
CoTV with 1 counter only stop Vial and Lackey which isn't too much

Merfolks:

IMO Merfolks is slight better to winning compared to gobbos. Everything I said above we can compare with merfolks, deck speed and Slogger killing just 3 or 4. The good part of history is this doesn't have any bounce or solid removal to delay us, but I hate trying to kill a merfolk when opp can play with Vial in resp a lord to protect a Coralhelm for example. :rolleyes:

Death and Taxes:

Some things to consider:
Flickerwisp can remove our Chalice and empty the counters :(
Too many basics. Moon effects in not a good way to win.
Trinisphere isn't good because mana base is high.
Death and taxes can remove any permanent either with Oblivion ring or Corondor
Here IMO the perfect meta is Sulfur Elemental. By the way Sulfur is very specific. Nice against Elspeth decks and Taxes decks. :cool:

I tested a lot against many versions and I concluded: the biggest problem is when the board is infested with creatures.
Therefore I really wanna run Fallouts, Firespouts or even Steam Blast (this one is not bad when we have CoTV with 2 counters...)

So, my list would be like this:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Mountain

4 Gathan Raiders
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Kavu (replaceable)

4 Blood Moon
4 Taurean Mauler (replaceable)
3 Steam Blast (replaceable)
2 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
3 Trinisphere

Opinions are welcome :wink:

mercs

11-05-2010, 03:09 PM

Sims

11-05-2010, 03:31 PM

As for the mu's, goblins game 1 is a bit hard, but if u get early slogger and ur running MD jittes, it's still pretty hard for them. they only run 1 (2 max) stingscourger, so it's not really something u have to be deathly afraid of. and ur right, trinis are weak here. I board out trini and chalice for removal. when u do that, they can't keep up with ur aggro.

I want to play in your meta. The goblin decks in my metagame pack full boat of Stingscourgers. I did too when i played it. One of my favorite cards in teh deck and I can't imagine playing it without having enough of them to draw or ringlead into them and not have to tutor for it. But what can I say, that's me. Huh.

mercs

11-05-2010, 06:43 PM

I want to play in your meta. The goblin decks in my metagame pack full boat of Stingscourgers. I did too when i played it. One of my favorite cards in teh deck and I can't imagine playing it without having enough of them to draw or ringlead into them and not have to tutor for it. But what can I say, that's me. Huh.

sorry sims, can't promise u nobody will play fullset stingscourgers :P
I guess if u know everyone's packing stingscourgers like that, then u'll have to play around it like masamune does with MD VcF.

I was just going by what i see in most lists. Most of the deckcheck lists (b4 the site went down) had only 1-2 and a recent tourney in my area went without any:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?8090-Top-8-Decklists&p=497424&viewfull=1#post497424

There's no certain way of telling what (or how much of what) your opponent is playing, but if u already know your meta then certainly, make changes to give urself a better matchup.

Masamune

11-08-2010, 05:26 AM

i see ur really pushing for the maindeck volcanic fallout ability. I don't know if it'll be widely adopted, but if it works for u in your meta, than best of luck with it. :)

As for the mu's, goblins game 1 is a bit hard, but if u get early slogger and ur running MD jittes, it's still pretty hard for them. they only run 1 (2 max) stingscourger, so it's not really something u have to be deathly afraid of. and ur right, trinis are weak here. I board out trini and chalice for removal. when u do that, they can't keep up with ur aggro.

As for merfolk, i've discussed it aabove. mono u is easier, but the splashed lists are more common now and harder to deal with. (even surpassing gobs in my eyes) so keep that in mind.

As for death and taxes, i actually never see it. haha I think my meta would play uw tempo b4 death and taxes. I face it online, and usually, shattering spree, removal, and anarchy will keep you in good condition.

Hope that helps. good luck

I see your point, but when you play Slogger with Seething song and opp bounce it with Stingscourger start to cry, because you will never be able to dominate the game again..
Doesn't matter if opp run 1 or 2 Stings....because he can search it with Matron. Also, i prefer board removals replacing Moon effects than take out Trinisphere even though it is not a good meta

Boots

11-21-2010, 03:20 AM

Watching the thread recently, and looking at the recent sets of late, I think we really need to consolidate new information of favored/non-favored matches, as well general advice and sideboard advice towards these match ups. Taking a page from the popularity of decks in the North American Metagame, I ask this. How do people feel we do against:

TES/Other storm decks

Fish - Playing around counter spells and the almighty coralhelm commander?

Goblins - Quick beats, now with tech like edict and cabal therapy.

VV Survival - I have yet to play this deck personally. I really would like to know, is this bad? Good?

Landstill - Can we beat deed?

Deadguy... Etc. You get the point. Really, single card discussion is great and all, but what are the new strategies for new technology?

mercs

11-21-2010, 08:48 AM

Hey guys,

Just finished a 35-40 man mox ruby tourney (yes, only 40 ppl. For some reason, a 4x mana drain tournie occurred same day!)
I did pretty ok. I was getting beat up by my meta, so i became very techy for this tournament. I took out my taurean mauler and went with an extra akroma and a few fortune thief (u prob need to look this up, i'll expain it later).

Here's my list:
4 magus
4 ssg
4 gathan
3 RPD
3 slogger
2 akroma
2 fortune thief

4 chrome mox
4 song
4 chalice
3 blood moon
3 trini
2 jitte

4 city
4 ancient
10 mountains

SB:
2 ratchet bombs
2 volcanic fallout
2 pyrokinesis
2 pithing needle
2 shattering spree
2 anarchy
3 tormod's crypts

Round 1: NO elves
G1: don't know what he's playing. I get chalice @1 but get rolled by nonstop lords
G2: t1 and t2 gathan raiders with pyrokinesis to speed up hellent helps me go the distance.
G3: lucked out w/ chalice, early RPD+jitte and he NO's withprogenitus in hand. :D

2-1-0
1-0-0

Round 2: UR merfolk
I was a little worried bc this guy's list was damn good and it took him to 1st at a recent 50 man tournie.
G1: i get chalice for 1 and a lot of beats. I think i dropped slogger to seal the deal, but i forget.
G2: He gets vial, i get chalice for 1, he gets standstill, and i crack with RPD. He can play a silvergill and LoA, but his whole hand was chalins, bolts, and vials. i use pyrokinesis and just drop fatty's

2-0-0
2-0-0

Round 3: Burn
I've played this guy b4. he's a damn good tes pilot, but unfortunately for me, he was playing burn today.
G1: he goes lavamancer nd i go trini. he gets stuck on one mana, and can't recover until i get slogger with jitte
G2: My hand is too slow to stop the burn. He hops over chalice w/ vexing shusher and rolls me
G3: I get early trini and he gets mana screwed again so I luck out a lot. I get a couple smaller guys to swing the jitte for the victory.
I consider this a lucky game, bc overall, he's setup his deck really well and has the tools to take it.

2-1-0
3-0-0

Round 4: UB merfolk
G1: t1 chalice @1, t2 chalice @2. He beats me down with muta and merrow, but fortunately, i stabilize with beats.
G2: he vials, my needle gets dazed. he passes, i shattering spree/w replicate and he sneaks a cursecatcher first. he plays a coralhelm and starts beating me down while 2 fow's hit both my sloggers. His hand is depleted so i drop a morphed fortune thief. when he swings for lethal, i unmorph to save my life. He doesn't have outs except jitte, but i drop RPD, gathan, and akroma b4 it happens and steal it. Dirty win this time.

2-0-0
4-0-0

Round 5: Oozevival vengevine
I really wanted to see how i did against this deck, but i also wanted to t8. Sorry guys, no report on this one.

ID
4-0-1

Round 6: LED/elf survival madness
This guy's been dominating with his list, but good thing we wanna t8.

ID
4-0-2

::t8::

Quarters: UB merfolk
G1: Very embarrassing loss. I resolve 2nd turn akroma, but he gets 3 silvergills and a merrow incredily fast and unexpected hitting me for 6 with the ones that can attack. I'm at 14 and he's at 12. He's got 11 damage on board, but one lord puts him at 16 damage. He bluffs that he's got me next turn and i took the bait bc he had 5 card in hand. I go defensive only to run into counters and realize that he never had the lord. I feel very foolish and pwned. epic fail.
G2: He draw no land, all land, and no land. keeps 4 card hand. Surpisingly, he holds off with fow's, beb, and snuff outs. I finally resolve a rakdos w/ jitte, and he's depleted so i steal it.
G3: He's got 2 beb's in hand w/counters. I send a morphed akroma down that he thinks is gathan and i unmorph is 3rd or 4th turn. His army comes out nowhere near as fast as first game, and he couldn't draw a snuff out in time. extremely hectic/stressful match. I feel it was very hard fought and competitive due to the crazy merfolk speed.

Semis: Burn Rematch (yup...)
G1: Early gathan and i throw a jitte on when he taps out. I hold a fortune thief in case he wants to go lethal on me, but gathan takes it.
G2:very slow on both ends. i got chalice @ 1 with trini and rakdos, but he's got shushers, slowly sending in gpblin guides and figure of destiny. I drop akroma and raiders to stall. I couldn't aggro bc i was at 5. Finally i drop slogger. I chose to sweep the board w/ slogger shot and attack so i could killl him next turn, but i realize that i made a horrible mistake bc i could've done 14 damage alone by attacking w/ akroma and shooting 8 damage w/ slogs. I'm still at 5 with all the board, and he's got 5 lands, so i think he can only drop one of the 2 cards in his hand since trini's out. His turn, he draws a land, price of progresses me for 2 and searing blazes me. :( fml. I was pretty crushed. The play mistake costed me big time.
G3: I have to mull out to a shady hand. I kept it competitive, but eventually he burned me out w/ some shusher tech.

Overall, I was a little heartbroken, but in the end it was better he won due to the finals.
Finals matchup was oozevival vengevine vs burn. g1 burn gets hit with like t3 16 damage or something on the draw and loses, but outburns him g2 and 3 pretty epic fashion. I'm pretty sure I could not have done better against that ooze list, so i'm glad he won.

In the end I placed 3rd, which I'm decently satisfied with. Even If I beat burn, I probably would've only gotten 2nd unless i completely lucked out. walked out with 2 foil wastelands. :)

Overall, I liked my tech. I actually planned on fortune thief sealing me UG survival madness games, but never faced it. It got me a clutch merfolk win that let me draw out on survival twice so i'm happy with that. During testing, it was also great against early empty the warrens, and bant w/ chalice @ 1.

Most Effective bombs:
akroma
jitte
RPD
fortune thief
and pyrokinesis

Least effective:
Anarchy (love it, but no white to touch it)
volcanic fallout ( never drew it. sadness...)
ratchet bomb (never go it early. Got it late when fortune thief already saved the day.)

Hope this helps. My meta was very survival and merfolk ridden so this list was very good to me. I don't see it working in a lot of other meta's, but maybe it can be useful for some of you guys.

----
@Boots

I like the goblins mu, and i'm more comfortable with the fish mu.
Even though Ant and landstill used to be byes, bgu landstill and tes are quite resilient. Still, I feel that those are somewhat in our favor.
Deadguy i feel is a bad mu.
With my tech, ug survival madness is competitive, but i still feel oozevival vengevine is problematic.

Boots

11-21-2010, 10:50 PM

@mercs

Was Fortune Thief really that good for you?

NecroYawgmoth

11-21-2010, 11:01 PM

mercs

11-22-2010, 04:34 AM

yeah, I am also interested a lot...

Tested her around 1 - 1 1/2 years ago, with 4 Gathans, 1 RAkroma and 2 Thiefes, but has kicked them after 1 week, because they were too bad, imo

maybe she is better nowadays?

I definitely agree. Periodically I would give fortune thief a try with very disappointing results. 1-2 years ago, the big decks were things like:

Can thresh, Zoo, Tempo faerie (in my area at least), Stax, ANT, Eva Green, and Dredge

But for me, the meta has changed quite a bit. most decks can't handle massive problems from vengevine, emrakul, and jace, merfolk has emerged as the premiere deck simply bc of it's well rounded aggro and control.

The meta now in my area has become filled with merfolk, ug survival madness, oozevival vengevine, and landstill.
With the majority of the strongest preformers playing the first two, fortune thief just made sense to me as a great option to tech them with.

Am I going to say that fortune thief single handedly made me undefeated in swiss yesterday? Definitely not. I was lucky and my sb was very good to me. Moreover, every guy i faced was a top8 guy from a previous tournie, so I've already prepped for their decklists for a while now. What I did was a meta tech that doesn't have to be duplicated. It didn't win me every game, but on 3-4 of them, fortune thief massively turned the corner or secured a good safety net i needed to make more aggressive plays. Plus, it played as bait a lot.

Masamune

11-22-2010, 11:19 AM

Zork

11-22-2010, 07:12 PM

Survival is bad because if we don't have moon, or moon gets countered (G/U), or destroyed, or they get basics/heirarchs, or they get one turn with it before we get moon (yes, that is a lot of ors) we are not going to win. Post board we may get needles as well, but they will also bring in hate on a stick. While we can mull aggressively for needle - a bad idea - they have 8 tutors for their hate pieces.

mercs

11-22-2010, 07:23 PM

What's the problem with Survival decks? These types of decks are not as strong as you think...because Moon effects disrupt it easy... The players wich piloting it just spent one or two times to activate Survival and when they have in table avaiable lands (i mean basics)... Moreover we can board Needles, but IMO Moon effect is the best way to beat
As I said earlier Merfolks and Goblins is a little more difficult to handle... Doesn't matter haw many Slogger we have.... Slogger's ability can be activated only four times... open our way a little...while the opponent play again creatures and more creatures....

Yes, moons are good, but if u let them open up one forest, they will bring out elves and birds to power out what they need. Also, they only need one green source to power out 3 vengevine with LED. In the end, the most powerful play u can do is a 1st turn moon, but if u don't get it, dropping moons isn't too strong anymore.

Against ooze list, the moons are much stronger.
Against madness list, the moons are noticeably weaker.

To be honest, I'm not sure what your post is arguing for. If you like your survival matchup, that's good. If you don't like your merfolk matchup, I just beat 3 merfolk in the mox tournament yesterday, so if u wanna read my list and what i did, u can (posted yesterday). Right now, your arguing what i shouldn't do/think, so it's not that constructive. I'm standing firm on not removing my sloggers right now, so let's not bring up the old "slogger/no slogger" debate. It just ends with ppl doing what they prefer.

Masamune

11-24-2010, 07:56 AM

Yes, moons are good, but if u let them open up one forest, they will bring out elves and birds to power out what they need. Also, they only need one green source to power out 3 vengevine with LED. In the end, the most powerful play u can do is a 1st turn moon, but if u don't get it, dropping moons isn't too strong anymore.

Against ooze list, the moons are much stronger.
Against madness list, the moons are noticeably weaker.

To be honest, I'm not sure what your post is arguing for. If you like your survival matchup, that's good. If you don't like your merfolk matchup, I just beat 3 merfolk in the mox tournament yesterday, so if u wanna read my list and what i did, u can (posted yesterday). Right now, your arguing what i shouldn't do/think, so it's not that constructive. I'm standing firm on not removing my sloggers right now, so let's not bring up the old "slogger/no slogger" debate. It just ends with ppl doing what they prefer.

I really enjoyed your list! Very nice :D Congrats!!
I see your point and I agree with you. My point is:
Yes, run Arc-Slogger. It is good, but not the right answer or the amazing weapon. Actually we have no option nowadays. I like it, but imo I like to run also a cople of Firespouts.
Against Survivals: yes, Hierachs sucks... :( I forgot... Qsalis can destroy our Pithings...and still isn't the right piece to shut down Survival...just delay it a little...
Can anyone suggest something against Survival much more agressive? I believe the meta nowdays is face G/W decks :S (Wizards...please ban Vengevine lol)

ForlornEgoist

11-30-2010, 02:28 PM

(Wizards...please ban Vengevine lol)

Or we could say: Wizards, please take some time from the arduous task of making Planeswalkers, and give red some love. =(

The VengeSurvival MU is definitely annoying. My meta is swarming with Aggro decks, so I've had to alter my SB to suit my meta. Currently I'm running:

2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Pyroblast
3 Pithing Needle
3 Flametongue Kavu
4 Pyrokinesis

How I see it, one of the deck's biggest weakenesses is that we have no targeted removal. Sure, in an ideal world we'd get a Chalice @ 1/2 and a Trinisphere by T3, but in reality there are quite a few annoying creatures which we can't always match with ours (Esp. in MU like Veng and Merfolk), so I've tailored my SB more to dealing with creature-heavy decks. I'd like to run more Relics, but the Pyroblast help me deal with Jace 2.0 (They don't even need to Fateseal; Unsummon just ruins our day). The Kavu's are definitely a favorite of mine to use, however the 3R can be annoying on ocassion, and it's important to remember when playing him that his ability is not a "may," effect, so only drop him if the opponent has a creasture.

I've long since removed the Slogger as I felt he was A) Primarily being cast via Seething Song and B) Forcing me to choose between either casting a spell or keeping mana open to shock if needed. True, his ability has always helped closed up that last 6-8 damage nicely, but at the same time I don't always have the extra mana to spare to cast him, and until I get a song or it's 6-8+ turns down the line, I don't exactly have the ability to cast him, nor do I always choose to since I opt for Rakdos/Gathan or a lock piece over Slogger when I draw them.

The Thief is definitely something I'm going to have to consider as a 2-of in the deck (also testing Koth, although I'm not liking him too much right now).

I'm also currently testing out Lightning Dragon and Covetous Dragon. RPD is always a solid beater, but the fact that I have to invest so much mana to make him useful sometimes slows me down. I'm not too fond of Lightning as his echo cost is similarly annoying, but Covetous is testing nicely as a 2-3 of.

Forlorn Egoist

Tacosnape

11-30-2010, 02:39 PM

mercs

11-30-2010, 08:21 PM

In defense of Fortune Thief, his metagame seemed to be made of Merfolk and UG Vengevine Survival. Fortune Thief is ridiculous against decks with limited removal. Or with decks that all their removal has the same CMC when you can Chalice.

That said. Fortune Thief? Really? I appreciate the Morphability of him, meaning he can at least still beat face and get out of your hand pretty nicely (And bluff into being a Gathan Raiders), but that still seems a little weak to me. Bizarre tech though.

Yea, I'm definitely not advocating everyone to start maindecking thiefs. My success with it came from the fact that 2 of the 3 last 50+ tournaments were full of merfolk, elf, elf survival, ug survival, and oozevival lists. I'm not hoping to do to Dragon Stompy what Saito did to merfolk. I'm just keeping some ideas allive in case someone finds themselves in a similar meta.

So if anyone's wondering, don't bring the thief's in if you got a lot of zoo, goblins, eva green, show and tell, tempo faeries, or even oozevival. :)

In general, I have a lot of dumb tech ideas, but i won't annoy this thread unless I've had a little success.

ForlornEgoist

12-01-2010, 01:10 AM

Ugh, just went to a tourney tonight and had one of those nights where I was proven yet again why no-one plays Dragon Stompy: it loses to absolute jank.

I went 1-3 tonight.

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Mountain

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
4 Trinisphere
3 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Seething Song

3 Blood Moon

4 Taurean Mauler
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Gathan Raiders

2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Pithing Needle
3 Pyroblast
3 Flametongue Kavu
4 Pyrokinesis

Game 1- Goblins
The deck itself was a standard Gobs list, however the person piloting it was a 10-year old kid who borrowed 1/2 the cards from his older bro. He had no SB. I lost G1 because I mulled to 5 and he got a Vial-->Lackey--->Instigator---->2 Piledrivers. I won game 2/3 w/o incident.

1-0

Game 2- B/W (Looks like Deadguy Ale from what I saw)
Round 1: I mull to 5. He T1---->Thoughtseize/Hymn (He saw a Tomb/Chalice/Simian/Seething and he assumed I was Belcher. lolz). I pass. He T2---->Dark Rit---->Nyxathid.

I sided out 7 Moon effects for 3 Kavu/4 Pyrokinesis

Round 2: I mull to 4, and keep the hand because I have no other choice. I T1 Mountain/RFG 2 Simian---->Trinisphere. I draw nothing for 2 turns. On T3 he casts Nyxathid. I lose.

1-1

Game 3- Fairies
No point in mentioning how I lost game 1. I mull to 5, got stuck on 2 lands.

I only know he was fairies cuz I saw him playing during my Gobo's match: - 7 Moon effects, -2 Trinisphere, -1 Mauler. +3 Pyroblast +3 Pithing Needle +4 Pyrokinesis

T1 I Chalice @1. He counters via Daze, I remove Simian, He FoW->FoW. T1 He drops a Hierarch. T2 I drop a 2nd Chalice @1, it resolves. He flashes in a Spellstutter EoT (so he could atk next turn). T3 he atks, it gets through, and he Ninjutsu's in the Ninja of Deep Scroll. He atks for 2-3 more turns before I manage to drop a Rakdos w/Jitte. He drops a Trygon, however I have 2 Counters on Jitte. Here's where I'm stupid. I have 2 Pyroblast/Pithing Needle on hand, but can't cast them. During declare attackers, I opt not to weaken Predator to 0 in hopes he'll destroy Chalice, because if he does then I can kill off Trygon/Ninja w/Pyroblast and then RPD will have Hellbent. He hits Jitte, then drops A goyf this turn + next turn. Yeah, that was smart of me. ><'

1-2

Round 3- Artifact jank
I won't describe the entire match because I'm too embarassed that I lost to a newb piloting a jank artifact deck. He was using Myrs/Urza lands (Tower/Power Plant, etc.) Nim Shrieker and other stuff that used to be bawler in Standard back in the Mirrodin block. He repeatedly tried to cast spells with Affinity/artifact lands and I had to keep reminding him their just mountains. Same deal with 3Sphere. He finally wins Game 1 due to Razarmane Masticore. I was stupid first game and asked: "you gunna keep it?" Forgetting, of course, that it is a MAY effect. Yeah, that was smart.

Game 2 was pretty much a repeat, only this time I didn't remind him of the Masticore and he lost it. Right when I was 2 attack away from killing him (had a RPD w/Jitte, 1 Gathans and a Magus AND I was Hellbent) he topdecks Myr Incubator and on his next turn gets 21 artifact tokens. I'm at 3.

1-3

Yeah, tonight made me very sad.

Some changes I plan to make:

Trinisphere is not something to run 4-of, and Blood Moon's, while amazing on T1, lose their value later in the game, particularly against aggro decks who are able to fetch basics or, in the case of Gobs, run very little nonbasics. Also I noticed how easily I got swarmed. My deck can handle 1 or 2 biggies no problem, but when there's 4 or 5 guys sitting on the field I'm left thinking: "Well, a whole lot of good this 1 5/5 Raider will do me." Also I've noticed time and time again how often Jitte has saved me from the brink of death, or enabled me to hold of an opponent until I can make a stronger board position. So, here are the current edits I'm planning to make:

-1 Trinisphere
-1 Blood Moon
-1 Taurean Mauler

+2 Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs
+1 Umezawa's Jitte

After tonights matches, I also have to say I'm loosing more and more love for RPD. Yes, Hellbent is amazing. However, in order to make him connect with an opponent I always have to reserve 2R, something which I rarely can spare, since each turn I'm trying to empty my hand of cards. So, I think I definitely will be playtesting other options in his slot. Still looking at Lightning Dragon/Covetous Dragon.

Forlorn Egoist

mercs

12-01-2010, 02:23 AM

Ugh, just went to a tourney tonight and had one of those nights where I was proven yet again why no-one plays Dragon Stompy: it loses to absolute jank.

---Sorry to hear, there are some things I'd advise though. And yes, unfortunately, this deck does lose to jank quite often. :(

Game 1- Goblins
The deck itself was a standard Gobs list, however the person piloting it was a 10-year old kid who borrowed 1/2 the cards from his older bro. He had no SB. I lost G1 because I mulled to 5 and he got a Vial-->Lackey--->Instigator---->2 Piledrivers. I won game 2/3 w/o incident.
1-0

---Gj. Nothing much here to say.

Game 2- B/W (Looks like Deadguy Ale from what I saw)
Round 1: I mull to 5. He T1---->Thoughtseize/Hymn (He saw a Tomb/Chalice/Simian/Seething and he assumed I was Belcher. lolz). I pass. He T2---->Dark Rit---->Nyxathid.
I sided out 7 Moon effects for 3 Kavu/4 Pyrokinesis
Round 2: I mull to 4, and keep the hand because I have no other choice. I T1 Mountain/RFG 2 Simian---->Trinisphere. I draw nothing for 2 turns. On T3 he casts Nyxathid. I lose.
1-1

---This deck doesn't actually sound like jank to me. And with it's good mu against merfolk, a lot of ppl are running BW, BG, and BGW, so don't worry. I'd board out magus, but I'd keep moons in personally. Moon's + ratchet bomb help a lot in this mu. Overall, it's a bad MU for us, so no shame in losing to it.

Game 3- Fairies
No point in mentioning how I lost game 1. I mull to 5, got stuck on 2 lands.

---One thing with DS, always remember to evenly distribute ur lands b4 u shuffle. Not sure if you do this or not, but mulling out is always a big problem. After a DS player faces a control deck, if he takes his permenents, clumps them together, and power shuffles (or even worse, simply rifles) it's guaranteed there will be large clumps. There's some math on it that I won't get into. So in the end, distribute, shuffle, and even ask ur opponent to shuffle. :P

I only know he was fairies cuz I saw him playing during my Gobo's match: - 7 Moon effects, -2 Trinisphere, -1 Mauler. +3 Pyroblast +3 Pithing Needle +4 Pyrokinesis
T1 I Chalice @1. He counters via Daze, I remove Simian, He FoW->FoW. T1 He drops a Hierarch. T2 I drop a 2nd Chalice @1, it resolves. He flashes in a Spellstutter EoT (so he could atk next turn). T3 he atks, it gets through, and he Ninjutsu's in the Ninja of Deep Scroll. He atks for 2-3 more turns before I manage to drop a Rakdos w/Jitte. He drops a Trygon, however I have 2 Counters on Jitte. Here's where I'm stupid. I have 2 Pyroblast/Pithing Needle on hand, but can't cast them. During declare attackers, I opt not to weaken Predator to 0 in hopes he'll destroy Chalice, because if he does then I can kill off Trygon/Ninja w/Pyroblast and then RPD will have Hellbent. He hits Jitte, then drops A goyf this turn + next turn. Yeah, that was smart of me. ><' 1-2

---Sounds like a lot of misplays, but also, a little bit of mis-siding. I don't really suggest ever running playset chalices w/6 1cc boardded in. I'd run tormod's crypt or faerie macabre for the same reason. I know you don't like slogs, but in this matchup, he's pretty beastly. Still winnable w/o him though.

As for SB, it seems like ur main trible removal is pyrokinesis. Although good, I found Volcanic Fallout to be too invauable in this mu. They're focus is on major card advantage and elusiveness, so even trading w/ them sucks. Faeries is the only true reason I prefer VcF over firespout and pyroclasm. It's also good against EtW and that myr incubator situation u discuss later. All in all, at least some type of massive removal in the form of ratchet bomb, powder keg, firespout, or VcF is pretty vital.

One thing confused me though. You said G2 u chalice @1 on T1 and he dazes, then u ssg and he fow's. Did you actually choose to go on the draw for G2?

I won't get into the jank matchup except for the fact that your opponent is actually right on the affinity thing. Moon only changes the subtype of lands, not the supertype. Artifact lands will become artifact land-mountain. You can google a more in depth explanation if your not satisfied. In the end, I found the only way to beat jank is to avoid it. Win ur matches, and keep winning. If we're facing jank late in the rounds, we're probably not t8ing anyways right?

On the last notes, I agree with the Rakdos comment, that's why I go 3 of w/sloggers and akroma.
On Covetous, he's been heavily tested in earlier years with razormane masticore and was found not to be good enough, but things always change, so good luck with that.
On lightning dragon, In my testing, he was very underwhelming.
Finally, I noticed that your mana curve is actually really really low. Basically it's on par w/ consistency DS standards. If you wanna go with a low mana curve, I suggest subbing the seething songs for another threat.

I tried to touch on all the issues u talked about, but not sure if I got it all. Hope this helps
mercs

OuterCrow

12-01-2010, 09:03 AM

---One thing with DS, always remember to evenly distribute ur lands b4 u shuffle. Not sure if you do this or not, but mulling out is always a big problem. After a DS player faces a control deck, if he takes his permenents, clumps them together, and power shuffles (or even worse, simply rifles) it's guaranteed there will be large clumps. There's some math on it that I won't get into. So in the end, distribute, shuffle, and even ask ur opponent to shuffle. :P

What you are suggesting is actually deck stacking (cheating). If "evenly distributing" lands before you shuffle is intended to somehow make your land draws more consistant (and lessening your deck randomisation), then that really isn't at all cricket. The purpose of shuffling is to achieve randomisation of your deck - stacking lands or 'mana weaving' should be un-needed if you are interested in genuine randomisation (as you should be - it's the rules), unless you intend to shuffle poorly/shifty.

Surprises me how many people still practice this.

Masamune

12-01-2010, 10:27 AM

My tips:
1) Learn to shuffle a deck is as important as learning to pilot it (I'm not saying necessarily this case your shuffles was bad)
2) Practice constantly against a lot of other decks do our thinking get better aways...
3) Learn board is very important too... And your mana curve is weird IMO. The other Dragons isn't a good choice. Slogger and RAkroma (compared with them) is MUCH better! Test all of them and you will see the results.
4) Aggro meta (merfolks, goblins, elfs...) is hard to handle with but is not a nightmare...however, we MUST to run Sloggers, Kavus and Kazuuls for now (because we have no options nowadays...).
5) I just didn't understand why u run Pyroblasts... a) Conflits with Chalice 1 and is good above all against control decks/ landstills and many others... (justly the favorable match decks for us IMO)
6) Try: -3 Pyroblast replacing for another stuff (Bombs, Akromas and even Anarchy)

I hope I was helpful :]

~Masamune

Tacosnape

12-01-2010, 11:15 AM

Hate to be this guy, but you wouldn't lose nearly as badly to Goblins, Faeries, or random things like Nim Shriker if you'd RUN ARC SLOGGER.

Seriously. I think a lot of you are missing the point of Dragon Stompy. Dragon Stompy is a deck with absolutely no card advantage, no reactive disruption, no deck manipulation, and terrible recovery. The ONLY THING this deck has going for it is that it plays more cards that can singlehandedly win a game than any other deck in the format. That's the point of it. You can't try to make it consistent to the point of power dilution because you're going to end up with a weak, semi-inconsistent deck when there's a ton of better options in the format. You HAVE to play game-winning cards.

Trinisphere is the perfect example. I hate Trinisphere. I hate the card. I hate playing with it. I hate playing against it. I want to cut it from Dragon Stompy constantly. But you can't. Because any time it's ever correct to cut Trinisphere from Dragon Stompy, you should be playing a different deck. Same thing for people who are cutting Blood Moon and Magus of the Moon.

Playing Taurean Mauler and not Arc-Slogger is a mistake. Mauler's more consistent. Mauler's solid. Mauler won't clog your hand. Mauler's never just awful. But Mauler doesn't win you near the games Slogger will. When you end up staring down a freshly played 4/4 Knight of the Reliquary, Mauler's going to lose that race. Slogger can at least spend 20 cards to nuke the thing. Or 30 if it's a little bigger. Dragon can fly over it. Magus can prevent it from being played on occasion, and keep it from getting Mazes or other annoying things. Even Kargan Dragonlord can work it's way up to 8/8 flying and give it a run for its money.

Sims

12-01-2010, 11:51 AM

Taco, out of curiosity could I ask for your current list if you were to not be running some form of Survival variant?

For reference, my current list:

11 Mountain
4 Tomb
4 City
4 Chrome
4 SSG
4 Seething Song

4 Blood Moon
4 Magus of the Moon

4 Chailce
4 Trinisphere

4 Gathan raiders
4 RPD
3 Slogger
2 Koth

SB//
2 Ratchet bomb
3 FTK
3 Pyrokinesis
3 meta slot (more bombs/ftks/kinesis, grave hate, whatevers)
4 Pithing Needle

I don't like running all 4 Sloggers personally, but I also don't always like running all 4 Trinisphere... the 4th Trini could be the 4th Slogger based on player preference....

Usually when I play in my metagame with this deck I tend to crush souls and dreams, but I'm always looking for ways to improve or meta-choices i didn't think of before. So what are peoples opinions?

mercs

12-01-2010, 02:55 PM

What you are suggesting is actually deck stacking (cheating). If "evenly distributing" lands before you shuffle is intended to somehow make your land draws more consistant (and lessening your deck randomisation), then that really isn't at all cricket. The purpose of shuffling is to achieve randomisation of your deck - stacking lands or 'mana weaving' should be un-needed if you are interested in genuine randomisation (as you should be - it's the rules), unless you intend to shuffle poorly/shifty.

Surprises me how many people still practice this.

I'm not saying stack and not shuffle. I'm saying stack and shuffle MORE. It's been cleared by every judge I've come across, as long as you keep shuffling. If you stack, rifle like once or twice and present, then yea, it's cheating. The judges in SCG LA, and all of the local tournaments never had issues as long as you ACTUALLY KEEP SHUFFLING.

For example, If you have a random deck check, or deck check for top 8, your deck is organized to be compared to the list. Now say you have 18 lands and want to 7 card power shuffle. Let 1 = land and 2 = nonland

pile 1: 111222222
pile 2: 111222222
pile 3: 111222222
pile 4: 111222222
pile 5: 11222222
pile 6: 11222222
pile 7: 11222222

pile 1: 212221122
pile 2: 211222112
pile 3: 221222211
pile 4: 221122221
pile 5: 22212222
pile 6: 22211222
pile 7: 12221222

After the second powershuffle, The last 3 piles aren't even, so if you don't encourage your opponent to shuffle, and he cuts once, you've got one land hands set up everywhere. In the end, judges look for your intent to cheat, but they never care if u spread ur lands around first and shuffle a lot. I've had a random guy try to DQ my friend at a tournament for cheating by spreading his lands around, but the judge said as long as he keeps shuffling, he's fine.

ForlornEgoist

12-01-2010, 03:10 PM

As for SB, it seems like ur main trible removal is pyrokinesis. Although good, I found Volcanic Fallout to be too invauable in this mu. They're focus is on major card advantage and elusiveness, so even trading w/ them sucks. Faeries is the only true reason I prefer VcF over firespout and pyroclasm. It's also good against EtW and that myr incubator situation u discuss later. All in all, at least some type of massive removal in the form of ratchet bomb, powder keg, firespout, or VcF is pretty vital.

That Jank Artifact/Fairies/Goblins decks were newer players who just started coming to my local store last week, so I was in no way familiar with their decks, nor did I expect them. The only other tribal in my meta is Merfolk. Everything else has switched over to Aggro Loam or VengeSurvival. In this instance, while I do have VFallout/Firespout/Pyroclasm/Powder Keg available to me, I felt it was more important to be able to remove bigger threats than a bunch of small ones. Obviously, this has changed, so I guess I'm going to have to alter my SB. Of course, it'll be a week or two before I play it again, as I'm feeling particularly bad about the deck right now, so I think I'll get my ego-boost and play Enchantress next week so I can go 4-0. Then, once I'm feeling a little bit better about myself, I'll definitely try out DS with several of the improvements you suggested.

My tips:
I just didn't understand why u run Pyroblasts... a) Conflits with Chalice 1 and is good above all against control decks/ landstills and many others... (justly the favorable match decks for us IMO)
~Masamune

The Pyroblast we're in there because last week I actually saw (and played) against several decks running Jace 2.0 and I got just raped by him all day, and since my Burn in the SB only deals with creatures I felt I needed an extra slot to deal with him. This week, however, the only semi-control deck that played was Enchantress. Every other deck playing was either Combo or Aggro. So... yeah.

I've tried Slogger time and time again and he's never worked out for me to the extent he appears to of worked out for other people. With all the Aggro I'm seeing I may switch over to him simply for the luxury of an extra burn slot, but at the moment I think I'll stick with Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs.

As for RAkroma, the times I've morphed her she has literally won me games, however there have been a greater number of times where I couldn't flip her because that 3Rwas too hard for me to get. Regardless of the 10 mountains/4 Moxes/4 Simians/4 Song I do still have problems getting 3 red sources unless we get much later in the game. Based on what I've experienced I think I may just end up removing Mauler entirely from the deck. He's just lackluster unless you drop him T1-2, and even then he dies to removal insanely easy.

I also have to say I'm becoming a fan of Koth of the Hammer. His first ability is moot, however the 2nd and third abilities have definitly proved themselves useful to the deck. The 2nd ability helps me recover from a lack of mana, and in games where I've stalled it out to topdeck mode and I keep drawing unwanted land, the 3rd ability provides me with an extra way to finish the game, or remove pesky critters.

So, yeah. Thanks for all the suggestions, guys.

Forlorn Egoist

OuterCrow

12-01-2010, 08:12 PM

I'm not saying stack and not shuffle. I'm saying stack and shuffle MORE. It's been cleared by every judge I've come across, as long as you keep shuffling. If you stack, rifle like once or twice and present, then yea, it's cheating. The judges in SCG LA, and all of the local tournaments never had issues as long as you ACTUALLY KEEP SHUFFLING.

For example, If you have a random deck check, or deck check for top 8, your deck is organized to be compared to the list. Now say you have 18 lands and want to 7 card power shuffle. Let 1 = land and 2 = nonland

pile 1: 111222222
pile 2: 111222222
pile 3: 111222222
pile 4: 111222222
pile 5: 11222222
pile 6: 11222222
pile 7: 11222222

pile 1: 212221122
pile 2: 211222112
pile 3: 221222211
pile 4: 221122221
pile 5: 22212222
pile 6: 22211222
pile 7: 12221222

After the second powershuffle, The last 3 piles aren't even, so if you don't encourage your opponent to shuffle, and he cuts once, you've got one land hands set up everywhere. In the end, judges look for your intent to cheat, but they never care if u spread ur lands around first and shuffle a lot. I've had a random guy try to DQ my friend at a tournament for cheating by spreading his lands around, but the judge said as long as he keeps shuffling, he's fine.

Question: Are you spreading lands before shuffling to improve your odds of drawing a balanced amount of lands/spells? If the answer is yes, then you're cheating (or, being pretty shifty). However, if you are spreading lands, but then shuffling enough to properly randomise the deck, well you just wasted your time with the land spread. This is the reason a (competent) judge would say that it is fine to spread: he witnessed you shuffle enough that it invalidated all your hard land distribution work! I would say this would be somewhere in the ballpark of 7-10 good riffles/mashes.

The fact is this: A MtG deck is shuffled to achieve a random spread of cards. Land distribution is in opposition to the idea of randomisation.

Promise me you'll read this article - it's more specifically about pile shuffling, but there is some relevance to this discussion: http://fivewithflores.com/2009/05/how-to-cheat/

Either way, enough thread hijacking from me... gogo Dragon Stompy!

mercs

12-02-2010, 02:55 AM

Question: Are you spreading lands before shuffling to improve your odds of drawing a balanced amount of lands/spells? If the answer is yes, then you're cheating (or, being pretty shifty). However, if you are spreading lands, but then shuffling enough to properly randomise the deck, well you just wasted your time with the land spread. This is the reason a (competent) judge would say that it is fine to spread: he witnessed you shuffle enough that it invalidated all your hard land distribution work! I would say this would be somewhere in the ballpark of 7-10 good riffles/mashes.

The fact is this: A MtG deck is shuffled to achieve a random spread of cards. Land distribution is in opposition to the idea of randomisation.

Promise me you'll read this article - it's more specifically about pile shuffling, but there is some relevance to this discussion: http://fivewithflores.com/2009/05/how-to-cheat/

Either way, enough thread hijacking from me... gogo Dragon Stompy!

Hey outercrow. Good read. i think are opinions are actually the same. My previous post was about the math on power shuffling (or table shuffling as the link calls it). The double nickel is pretty interesting, but again, if DS were to do it, the bottom half of our deck is filled with one land hands. Therefore, a generic medium cut from the opponent was to lead to mana screw.

I'm guessing ur a big riffling guy. I guess I was being paranoid about the riffling's efficiency to randomize bc I didn't think it broke down the clumps well enough before. At the end of the day, we're both advocates of lots of shuffling. Hopefully this is the end of the issue so we can keep expanding the DS thread.

raudo

12-02-2010, 05:29 AM

If your opponent shuffles only in piles and tries to cheat you there is one very good tactic.

When it is your turn to shuffle opponents deck, do pileshuffle to four piles and watch all his lands positioning one after the other. :)

Masamune

12-02-2010, 08:18 AM

Tacosnape

12-02-2010, 11:39 AM

Taco, out of curiosity could I ask for your current list if you were to not be running some form of Survival variant?

Sure. It's not the most finely tweaked thing in the world, though. I rarely play this deck much at the moment given how awful the metagame is for it.

10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox

4 Seething Song

4 Blood Moon
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void

4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Arc-Slogger
2 Kargan Dragonlord

SB:
4 Ratchet Bomb
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Pithing Needle
3 Umezawa's Jitte

Sims

12-02-2010, 11:51 AM

Sure. It's not the most finely tweaked thing in the world, though. I rarely play this deck much at the moment given how awful the metagame is for it.

<snip> list <snip>

I figure that's why I get the results with it that I do, because my metagame ebbs and flows. Some weeks people just feel like playing Tier and they break out all the Survivals, Bridge from belows, Fish, and Lion's Eye Diamonds and I probably wouldn't play this deck at those points... But it usually only lasts a week or two before people are bored and go back to playing Rogue. During these rogue periods this deck has a tendency to crush dreams since people who build rogue sometimes have a tendency to forget that Blood Moon exists.. Generally speaking, with the way my sideboard is (the 3 meta slots are usually ratchet bombs/jittes), I've had decent success and my list is only 3 cards off from yours (-1 Slogger -2 dragonlord +1 mountain +2 koth).

So my list isn't quite as jank as I thought it would be. Good to know.

NecroYawgmoth

12-02-2010, 05:18 PM

Hey Taco... No love for Koth right now? I think he is awesome.

I am like always on the no-Hellbent-train, and I know you dont like it, and you don't like Shatterskull either, but nevertheless I post my actual list:

//Creatures
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Taurean Mauler
4 Flametongue Kavu
3 Lord of Shatterskull Pass
2 Arc-Slogger
2 Kargan Dragonlord

//other Stuff
4 Blood Moon
3 Koth of the Hammer
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
4 Trinisphere

//Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Snow-Covered Mountain

//Sideboard:
4 Pithing Needle
3 Tormod's Crypt
4 Spinal Villain
2 Anarchy
2 Pyrokinesis / Jitte / SoF&I / Crypt & Anarchy / whatever

Kargan Dragonlord is better that I would have thought... thx for that =P

Tacosnape

12-03-2010, 01:46 AM

Hey Taco... No love for Koth right now? I think he is awesome.

My problem with Koth is how often I couldn't protect him. Or wasn't willing to protect him because I wanted be swinging for as much damage as possible instead. The more I played him, the less I liked him compared to other things he could have been.

Also, no Pit Dragon or Gathan Raiders makes my head want to explode. Hellbent's the whole reason I like the deck.

(Edit): Also. Spinal Villain?! Seriously? Merfolk tech much?

Kargan Dragonlord is better that I would have thought... thx for that =P

God bless you for actually testing him.:) The more I play him, the more I become convinced that 2 Kargans are practically core for the deck.

Ozymandias

12-03-2010, 03:43 AM

NecroYawgmoth

12-03-2010, 04:45 AM

But Koth shine in you bad MUs... he really wins against Enchantress, and control-variants that are otherwise hard for the deck.
And if you don't protect him to swing for as much as possible [you can do it with him for an additional 4/4], you can swing for as much as possible again 1 turn later, because most people have an "auto-attack-focus" on Planeswalkers.

I understand your "head-explodings" as this deck loses some aggroish explosion starts. But the reason behind this is, that I don't need to play "balls to the walls" like before, and can actually win more games, in the mid-game where normal Dragon Stompy just loses, bacause of its well known Hellbent issues. ALSO I tested non-hellbent lists with SoF&I [take the upper list -1 Kavu -2 Slogger, +3 Swords for example] and its quite promising... Sure we don't have that 3 Mana 5/5 and that instant killing RPD, but enough other aggro.

FTK can swing for 4 if opponent has no creatures, other than that, he still 2 for 1s most of the time.
Shatterskull is still "Mr. Bigger than Goyf" whats more than often enough, and in stall games [or even much other games thx to Koth and Seething Song] with his Ultimate, which is just wicked sick you just Win. --> Where is the difference, if I create a ton of Mana for Kargan or RPD [which also requires Hellbent] and win, or create a ton of Mana for Shatterskull and... win
We also all know that Mauler is fast growing... If not, we just win easily, because the opponent doesn't play spells >.> duh

and yes... I hate merfolks.... I really really really hate to face them [and even my fried fish place of choice doesn't help me] , thats the reason I run 4 Villains...

Tacosnape

12-03-2010, 08:43 PM

My one issue is that there's never really been a better time for chalice 2, what with all the survival and storm love right now. In fact, I'm running the 18 land 4 monkey 4 mox 4 song lists just so I can t1 or t2 chalice as often as possible. Trinisphere also stops vines and combo shenanigans, and ratchet bomb is a wonderful new toy. I'm actually liking this deck in the meta right now.

This is kind of a valid point. Trinisphere is absolutely nuts right now.

My only problem is that if you blind Chalice 1 and find out you're playing Vengevine Survival, countering the Rootwallas doesn't help you protect your skull from being bashed in.

That said, the metagame might be better for this right now than I first thought.

jin

12-04-2010, 05:11 PM

Since everyone is posting their list, I'd like to debut my list and offer a counter point to tacosnape's ideal about Dragon Stompy by cutting Trinisphere and Arc-Slogger. I have had some good results fighting both mono Blue Fish and mono Red Goblins as well as other random decks. The only trouble I'm having right now (albiet a big problem) is Vengevine Survival. Please don't flame me guys:

Lands:
11x Mountain
4x Ancient Tomb
3x City of Traitors

Creatures:
4x Rakdos Pit Dragon
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Magus of the Moon
4x Gathan Raiders
3x Lord of Shatterskull Pass
3x Taurean Mauler
2x Flametongue Kavu

Spells:
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Thorn of Amethyst
4x Chrome Mox
3x Lotus Petal
4x Pyrokinesis

Sideboard:
3x Defense Grid
2x Anarchy
2x Boil
4x Tormod's Crypt
1x Arc-Slogger
3x Pyroclasm

Here is my reasoning regarding the manabase. I find that Dragon struggles to get red mana, so I opt to cut a City of Traitors for a Mountain as I don't like to sacrifice my City of Traitors too often. In addition to this, I replaced the traditional Seething Songs with my Lotus Petals offering alternatives to Chrome Moxen so I can drop my 2-drop lock pieces quicker.

In addition to the modified manabase, I have changed the lock pieces as well. You will notice that I took out Trinisphere because I find that:
1) three mana is difficult to get even with Seething Song and that I would much rather spend three mana on creatures
2) 3sphere is useless in long games (which Dragon is bad at)
To replace Trinisphere, I have added in another 2-drop lock piece in the form of Thorn of Amethyst. I chose thorn over other lock pieces like 2sphere Lodestone Golem or whatever is becaudse I feel that it is the closest card to Chalice of the Void that I could find and Chalice is a beast in against any deck first turn on the play. Although Thorn cannot replicate this entirely, it can do it partially. It also allows me to not be penalized since I run a very heavy creature base.

You'll notice that my creature base is very typical including a lot of traditional Dragon Stompy creatures like Rakdos, SSG, Gathan Raiders, Magus of the Moon, Lord of Shatterskull Pass, Taurean Mauler and even Flametongue Kavu. I chose these for several reason and here they are:
- Rakdos because he's the heart and namesake of the deck. I decided against tacosnape's choice of Kargan Dragonlord because I feel that I will Chalice at 2 if given the choice and that RR in the casting cost might as well be put towards Rakdos instead. Plus I already have a guy that levels up.
- SSG because he needs no explanation.
- Gathan Raider is a 5/5 for 3 generic. There really isn't much to say about him.
- Magus of the Moon because I already cut Blood Moon feeling that Blood Moon does not add to the aggro aspect and is very dead in some match ups where as Magus continues to provide a lock as well as beats for 2
- Lord of Shatterskull Pass is HUGE the following turn. I don't know what people don't like about him. I just know that he costs R and 3 generic which makes him really cheap. Dragon sometimes suffer from a lack of red, well it doesn't matter much to this guy.
- Taurean Mauler I put in for the same reason as Lord of Shatterskull Pass. I play him because my Dragon Deck isn't built to lock people out completely with moons and 3sphers, but to slow them down with Thorn and blank their removal with Chalice. They are still allowed to cast things, but they must meet the consequences.
- Flametongue Kavu is extra removal. He usually takes out 2 creatures because he swings and they'll block him, so I only need 2.

As an extra found in my main deck that most Dragon decks don't have are Pyrokinesis. I feel that Dragon desperately needs removal and Pyrokinesis is the best kind since I don't play 3sphere. It can remove multiple chump blockers while gaining me hellbent. It helps my bad matchups like Goblin and improves my match ups against Vengevine Survival.

My sideboard choices are simple:
- Defense Grid owns in the blue match up. It is a must counter allowing me to be more aggro in the blue match ups.
- Anarchy is a must against control decks.
- Boil for fun. I'm considering cutting it for more effective cards against Vengevine Survival.
- Pyroclam to hate on Goblins (also good against decks that make Thorn useless)
- Arc-Slogger to hate on Goblins (also good against decks that make Thorn useless)

The way my Dragon Stompy deck plays is that instead of dropping red lights on other decks, it creates speed bumps. It is built to slow down and not completely stop an opponent from developing their board. It punishes decks that play non-creature spells but also has plenty of solutions for decks that resolve creature spells. Let's face it, traditional Dragon Stompy just isn't stopping anyone these days. Let's try to slow them down and pack a bigger punch ourselves? In exchange for "weaker" lock pieces, I opt to play a stronger creature base. This deck plays aggressively. You want to lock out their removal early and start dropping creatures and swinging. Don't be afraid to keep hands that don't contain lock peices though because it can turn into an aggressive deck really fast. It has fat creatures to bear the blunt of the work. It also has the removal to support it (6 + 2 Kavu swings). I hate equipment, so I don't play Jitte or the Swords. I feel that if I had those, why don't I play creatuers instead? Also, I don't want to make my creatures a target since they will do all of the damage.

Anyway, this was a long post. Please post any feed back or questions you have for me. I'd like to hear some veteran Dragon Players give me a few pointers on the deck as well as any new fresh perspective players might have. My major concern is Vengevine, since this deck is horrible against them.

Ozymandias

12-04-2010, 11:01 PM

jin

12-05-2010, 01:57 AM

1) No Arc-Slogger whyyyy.
2) You need SB needle, and SB keg/Ratchet bomb
3) With extra cities, 3 mana is easier, and since stompy is dead in the long run anyway, might as well run some trinispheres, which are a lot more crippling than Thorn
4) What the pros don't realize is that pyrokinesis isn't the best removal if you have to MD removal.

1. Because Arc-Slogger clogs up hell bent and is only useful in a small amount of match ups - most noteably Vial Goblins. I have sufficient removal vis-a-vis 4x Pyrokinesis which are free and gives me good board advantage. I also pack enough creatures so that Arc-Slogger won't be missed.

2. Why is it necessary for me to have Rachet Bomb/needle/keg? Thorn of Amethyst stops anything that might be troublesome that these things might or might not be able to handle. I also find that Keg and Needle are counter intuitive since I Chalice at 1 a lot. Don't tell me to remove swarms because that's what my creature removal package of Flametongue Kavu and Pyrokinesis are for.

3. You are incorrect here I'm afraid. In the long-run Thorn is still useful where as 3sphere is the only card that becomes dead. Thorn is strong because multiples can push a Jace2/Firespout/Moat as far back as turn 5-7. This is another argument why Thorn of Amethyst is better than 3sphere.

4. I'm sorry, what the pros don't realize? So why are they called pros? So do the casual players realize this? I personally am not a pro, so I don't know. I just know that it has great synergy with my build since there is no 3sphere. It is solid creature removal because it gets rid of pesky chump blockers which are otherwise a stall tactic against Dragon Stompy's huge creatures. In the main, they improve both aggro and mirror matches as well as control matches where their creatures are limited in number.

One criticism against my own deck is, I traded explosiveness for stability, which has significantly weakened my mirror match since 3sphere now hurts me more than it does them. I also play more 0 drop artifact mana so chalice also hurts me at 0 more than it does them. I also run less 2-lands. However, I do have a stronger game one which all depends on the roll anyway. I think I'll work on a stronger board to help with the mirror match.

Here's my list for reference:

10 Mountain
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song
4 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Magus of the Moon
4 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere (Considering going up to 4)

4 Gathan Raiders
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
2 Flametongue Kavu
3 Arc-Slogger

2 Ratchet Bomb

SB:
2 Flametongue Kavu
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Trinisphere
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Faerie Macabre
3 Pithing Needle

This deck is built to do two things: 1) cheat out a lock piece as soon as possible. 2) Fill the deck out with the least bad cards. Kavu is a meta choice, since people are still running tribal in my meta, and dark horizons is rising in popularity. Ratchet bomb is a huge help versus problem enchantments, and so I don't feel too bad about losing Anarchy in the board. Basically, this deck is playable by a computer if you know the right lock piece to drop versus each deck, which is really something that comes with experience. For instance, t1 on the play blood moon is fine versus the format. But if your opp drops forest-> Hierarch? At least try for song into chalice 2 or a trini to stall them while you drop fat. Sidboarding is not supercomplicated but should be tested out-kavu is pretty bad versus 3 4/3s, for instance, but moons out on the draw and magi out versus red is less obvious.

P.S. in order of blind lock piece on the play, the priority order is IMo as follows
1) Blood Moon
2) Magus of the Moon
3) Trinisphere
4) Chalice 1
----Only keep the following after mulls----
5) Slogger
6) RPD+hellbent swing
7) Ratchet Bomb
8) Raiders

To address your first point,I would call this a more traditional build and that it doesn't really bring anything new to the table. Everyone tries to "cheat" the lock pieces into play as soon as possible. It is implied when playing Dragon Stompy.

As for your second point, I hardly doubt playing Flametongue Kavu is a meta-choice. Legacy is a creature heavy environment, so Kavu is pretty much manditory. If you ask me, Blood Moon is a meta-choice. There are loads of decks that don't play non-basics including Vial Goblins/Fish/Dragon mirror/Boros Sligh and loads of decks that can use your red mana that you give them like TES/Zoo/Affinity. That is another reason why I booted Blood Moon because it seems dead in so many match ups that it's just too risky to keep a 3-of let alone a 4-of. There are too many times where I fought goblins and I had Blood Moon and Magus both in my hand. They love red mana, so why are we giving it to them? How are these cards relevant in the mirror? I think everyone would say that their deck has the "least number of bad cards" but if you analyze it a little further, with as little bias as possible, you'll notice a lot of flaws in your own deck. My suggestion is to keep an open mind and listten to why some cards are good and why they are bad and try to make the best judgement.

Excuse me? I haven't tested Kavu vs Vengevine, but I wouldn't go as far as calling it BAD. It kills one when it comes into play and it blocks one when they attack killing 2 Vengevines. I would hardly call that BAD. BAD is a 2/2 that costs 3 mana that dies to Vengevine and serves you 4 points of damage.

In regards to your prioritizationg, I strongly disagree with chalice @ 1 being the least important. If you think about it, a majority of decks (I would say 90-95%) in legacy play 8-10 one drops where as maybe only as high as 85% play Dual Lands (Fish and Goblin is a large majority). Granted Every deck in Legacy plays non-basic but making tribal deck's mana into colourlessR is hardly a problem for them since they pack 4 Vials. Sure, it's an auto scoop if you get lucky against 43.Lands.dec or CounterTop or Landstill, but come on. Do you really believe that Blood Moon is the strongest play here going as far as ranking Magus of the Moon (who dies to bolt btw) over Chalice of the Void?

I get your deck, I really do. It's a very traditional Dragon Stompy deck focusing a majority of your efforts on an explosive punch and large creatures. I've been there, trust me. I tried to fit 3 Arc-Sloggers and 4 Trinispheres into the deck before and succeed in doing so. But I didn't win too much against tribal decks because I was too focused on the explosiveness I had nothing to deal with the resolved problems at hand. Dragon shouldn't stay focused on the explosiveness because a lot of Legacy decks are very resiliant against this type of playing style. Dragon should evolve into something that's more controlling and aim for stability over explosiveness.

That is my take on it. If I sounded offensive, please excuse me. You just didn't seem to have any reasoning in you, so I had to point out some of the more obvious flaws in your argument.

overseer1234

12-05-2010, 05:29 AM

Sure. It's not the most finely tweaked thing in the world, though. I rarely play this deck much at the moment given how awful the metagame is for it.

10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox

4 Seething Song

4 Blood Moon
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void

4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Arc-Slogger
2 Kargan Dragonlord

SB:
4 Ratchet Bomb
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Pithing Needle
3 Umezawa's Jitte

Pretty much what I run except for the dragonlords (I still run 2 jitte main deck)

But the problem I have the most difficulty with is sideboarding...

And not what to put in, but what the heck I have to take out of the deck...

Some help here would be sweet (yes, I am someone that simply takes sideboarding notes with him...).

Thanks ahead,
Robin.

jin

12-05-2010, 09:10 AM

Pretty much what I run except for the dragonlords (I still run 2 jitte main deck)

But the problem I have the most difficulty with is sideboarding...

And not what to put in, but what the heck I have to take out of the deck...

Some help here would be sweet (yes, I am someone that simply takes sideboarding notes with him...).

Thanks ahead,
Robin.

Dragonlord is interesting it I feel that it could work in my build since I don't play 3sphere and more red sources. How do you like your Jittes main? Don't you feel that you can never equip them and when you do, they get plowed?

Sideboarding is pretty difficult with Dragon. I feel that Dragon is more like a combo deck, so you have to sideboard that way. You can't dilute the deck by cutting all of one card, so you must take out a little of everything. It depends on match ups but some of the more flexible cards are:

1x Chrome Mox
1x Seething Song
Xx Blood Moon (if they play mono colour)
Xx Magus of the Moon (although with traditional Dragon builds, I don't take them out because they are still a 2/2 body and I can't get myself to cut creatures from this deck since it runs so little).
Xx Trinisphere (ie. vs affinity or Goblins on the draw or any other explosive aggro deck on the draw)

If you run tacosnape's build with jitte instead of Dragonlord, you might have even less creatures. So I really don't think you'd want to side any out. I hope I offered you new perspective.

gieli0

12-05-2010, 10:30 AM

I see alot of discussion but poor results. I think DS needs to wait for an other meta.

jin

12-05-2010, 11:01 AM

I see alot of discussion but poor results. I think DS needs to wait for an other meta.

They would have to unban mystical tutor for that to happen,.. No one would bring Dragon Stompy to a big tournament because there is a lot of random decks that can kill the traditinoal build of Dragon Stompy (ie. mono green decks with traditionally expensive green creatures, eldrazi decks, etc.) Bascially any random aggro strategy that plays mono colour is a treat to the traditional Dragon Stompy build. I think my version avoids that, but I'm bias.

gieli0

12-05-2010, 11:43 AM

There are some people that say their list avoids getting beat by random decks, but I never see any tournement results. My meta is full of merkfolk and goblin, for that is a reason to not bring DS, Zoo is also played much.
I know DS can win those MU but you're allways the underdog and getting beat by random decks that normaly is a walkover just sucks.

jin

12-05-2010, 12:11 PM

In light of my previous discussion with Ozymandias and also with testing, I have decided to change my sideboard to this:

1x City of Traitors
2x Anarchy
4x Tormod's Crypt
2x Pyroclasm
3x Ratchet Bomb
3x Koth of the Hammer

Here are my reasoning behind these changes:
Defense Grid: It is good but not sufficient in today's metagame. CounterTop have,... well.. Counterbalance and Top which are not affected by Defense Grid. Landstill have really strong permanent removal so Defense Grid alone will do nothing since their removal mostly move at sorcery speeds.

Boil: Naturally, since I wanted to cut it before anyway

Arc-Slogger: really was a flex slot which I couldn't figure out how to fill up.

Pyroclasm: went down to 2 because of my already strong maindeck removal. This coupled with a accurately aimed Ratchet Bomb allows me to handle swarms in 4 different ways including Pyrokinesis and blockers.

Additions:

Ratchet Bomb: I decided that I don't like Pithing Needle in this deck so I opted to stick with Ratchet Bomb. I realized that Ratchet Bomb can be good in the mirror which apparently I am weak at post board. Other than that, I haven't really figured out its uses. I'll probably use it in conjunction with Pyroclasm to hate out Goblins.

City of Traitors: for the mirror match since 3sphere hurts me more than it does them especially when they go first. I need all of the free mana I can get to ramp up enough since my 7 artifact mana are no longer useable under chalice @ 0 and 3sphere.

Koth of the Hammer: I realized just now that my UBg Landstill match ups can be really bad because of Pernicious Deed. Since I am reluctant to play Pithing Needle on deed, I opted to go with a more aggressive option. I feel that needle gives us a false sense of security since they can easily remove needle and blow up the deeds immediately whcih will be devastating. Koth provides acceleration as well as threats that cannot be removed by Landstill's Pernicious Deed. He's also cheaper than Akroma, which I don't have the acceleration to play.

V. Food for Thought

Some lingering questions:

- What is the correct split between creatures/equipment/disruption/accel?

- How many 5cc beaters? Which ones are superior? Is Razormanes time up?

- For an unknown metagame, what is the optimum number of Trinis and Blood Moons mainboard?

- Is Sword of Fire and Ice as good or bad as advertised here? 2, 3, or 4 Jitte?

- Does ETW have a place here? Could it be useful in a specific meta? If so, which?

- Who will be the first person to get yelled at for suggesting Covetous Dragon?

- Is Tephraderm as amazing as he looks here?

- Does Defense Grid deserve a spot in the board? If so, in leiu of what?

- Demonfire. Hot or not? Or board only?

- Does the deck need any draw or filtering? Is there any out there that the deck could run?

I think my last few posts addressed some of these questions from the first page. I would like some feed back also. To recap:

- as many creatures as you can pack; no equipment; cheapo acceleration; strong and broad disrupts

- no 5cc beaters because they are too expensive

- cut 3sphere and moon since they are narrow

- they are good, the deck just doesn't have enough creatures to support the equipment

- yes it has a place in the traditional builds, but not in mine since I can't make enough mana in one turn. EtW is applicable in Blue match ups. Although today's metagame it might not even come close to making the cut. I could see a deck build to use it though.

- not I

- didn't test him,.. seems interesting.. too bad he's 5cmc but he is single R

- No, not anymore.

- Pyrokinesis maindeck is better.

- no because you want hellbent. Try thorn of amethyst as disruption instead.

Thoughts?

There are some people that say their list avoids getting beat by random decks, but I never see any tournement results. My meta is full of merkfolk and goblin, for that is a reason to not bring DS, Zoo is also played much.
I know DS can win those MU but you're allways the underdog and getting beat by random decks that normaly is a walkover just sucks.

Oh yeah, I totally agree with what you are saying here. A Fish/Goblin/Zoo infested metagame is tough. I'm sorry I haven't posted any results (LOL), but I mostly play in small tournaments and a lot of my testing is done between my friends, in these small tournaments and a bit on MWS online.

If you still want to give Dragon a try in THAT metagame, why don't you mock up my list on MWS and see how you like it. I have had positive results against multiple Fish/Goblin decks online. I haven't tried the Zoo match up, but on the play, I doubt you'd lose since chalice at 1 destroys them. A strategy I have here is play multiple chalice at 1 so that topdecking 1 pridemage is not enough. Blood Moon is weak in this match up so I'm glad I run less than 5. It will slow them down though especially if they don't see it and don't fetch for basics. It really ruinse their pridemage plan. On the draw, you'll probably have to waste a Pyrokinesis on a Nactl but you need to drop that Chalice ASAP! Outside of that you can try to set up a wall of blockers and burn out their creatures while your thorns slow down their burns, but it is definately not as effective as chalice. Perhaps multiple thorns since they generally only have 3-4 lands in play. I have to concede that 3sphere is better in this match up.

Against Goblin and Fish, it is all very easy since Pyrokinesis ruins their day and none of their creatures can beat your creatures alone. Post board Pyroclams and Ratchet Bombs should help.

Tacosnape

12-05-2010, 01:33 PM

Ozymandias

12-05-2010, 02:32 PM

Ratchet bomb is really helpful versus a bunch of stuff. For instance, DS is kind of weak versus an opposing vial, or Empty tokens on t1 (which a lot of storm combo decks should go for versus you). It's not the most powerful card, but it gives you a lot of flexibility versus random junk like Enchantress. I really just got tired of drawing two trinispheres and uncastable Kavus. Bomb can also help you mop up stuff that slips under your chalice wall.

@jin: see, the problem with reconfiguring DS as cheap fat backed by llight disruption is that you have no sources of card advantage, and all the decks that do in legacy can just 1 for 1 you to death. Furthermore, you have no reactive answer to many of the killer cards in Legacy. This deck has to play like Roshambo: If your attempts to kick your opponenent in the nuts early don't succeed, say goodbye yo your testes satchel.

jin

12-05-2010, 10:31 PM

Again, if you cut Arc-Slogger and Trinisphere, you're left with a pile of red threats and mild disruption backed up with no card draw, card advantage, consistency, or deck manipulation. Anyone running this deck needs to ask themselves why they're running it. The strategy of Dragon Stompy is a hypermodern attempt to avoid having much of a cohesive strategy and instead try to just play the cards with the highest "Oops, I win" percentages in the format and win that way. And if that fails, the backup plan is one single super-aggressive burst that the opponent either stops or doesn't.

And also, the bunk about Arc-Slogger shutting off Hellbent is well overhyped. You don't have draw, so you don't topdeck them all that often. And the ones you start with or do topdeck can be Imprinted on Chrome Mox, used to flip Gathan Raiders, or just flat-out cast.

Goblins and Merfolk aren't terribly nightmarish, actually. Jitte helps a ton against Goblins, and Ratchet Bomb is a beast against Merfolk, but yes. Heavily tribal metagames aren't the place for this deck. DS thrives when Combo and decks with exotic manabases are at the forefront.

I get that you based the deck around Arc-Slogger and Trinisphere so you are quite attached to these cards but they no longer work. I know I'm straying away from your build quite a bit by proposing mine and but if you really want a high "Oops, I win" percentage, I think the new 1-Land Charbelcher is the deck for you. They have neither card advantage (I'm not counting cantrips here) nor deck manipulation but they have 60% chance of winning turn 1. That is fairly consistant if you ask me and their "Oops, I win" percentage is way higher and imposing that Dragon Stompy's. Therefore I will not base my strategy on this factor.

If you don't read my post, you should at least read this section
Let's talk about the lack of card manipulation, card advantage and consistancy first since that is the most important point and crucial difference between my pile of red threats and mild disruption versus your prison deck. If you want to refer to my list, it is a few posts back. If you will notice in my list, I am currently pack 24 creatures, 18 spells and 18 lands. I find that this distribution is better because it allows the deck to play aggressively. I agree that there is no card manipulation in this deck, therefore the best I can do is to manipulate it by building it a certain way. I avoid playing cards like Seething Song because they might clog my hand later on and also is not threatening by itself, neither is Jitte. But I find that acceleration is necessary, so I replaced Seething Song with Lotus Petal (because it doesn't clog up my hand) and Jitte with more threats. The deck focuses on this aggressive strategy and moves disruption to the passenger seat being able to draw creatures pretty much no matter how you mull. Therefore you can be aggressive throughout the game, consistancy. The deck also has no actual card advantage but it does provide a virtual card advantage and that is what the deck has to take advantage of. It is also the reason why I value Chalice of the Void so much. Chalice of the Void creates virtual card advantage by nullifying your opponent's carrds of that converted mana cost exactly the same way Counterbalance does. In this aspect, your opponent's fastest hand, cheap removal and ways to manipulate their cards and deck are all dead. Dragon Stompy takes advantage of this by not having anything in that range.

Trinisphere, I've already explained is useless unless against combo and I guess Zoo. Against control decks they are completely dead and against other aggro decks like Goblins, Fish, Rock, Trinisphere is also useless. When you mull, there is only 4x cards that are relevant in these match ups and that is Chalice of the Void. That is probably the scariest thing you'll drop to them.

Arc-Slogger IS a big deal when it sits in your hand. I HATE pitching it to Chrome Mox because you are almost always 1 short from casting it, so you are tempted to wait for the mana source, but then it never comes. When you finally decide to pitch it, you'll end up drawing a Mountain. Pitch it to Gathan Raider? Sorry, I think that's horrible. Dragon Stompy already runs such a low creature count compared to most aggressive decks and doesn't nearly control as well as a pure control deck. I don't consider pitching another creature an option until I am forced to. In my new Dragon Stompy build, I try to even keep my Simian Spirit Guides so I can smash for 2. It is THAT important to keep your creatures.

Arc-Slogger takes up your entire Seething Song which dawns on me that that is what your explosiveness is about. If you use it on two lock pieces, you might never drop Arc-Slogger. If you use it on Arc-Slogger, he might go farming. What will you do? Simple, cut it from the deck. I admit, his presence is immense and game turning, but with a heavier creature base, I hardly miss him at all. It feels like a big weight has been lifted from my hands (pun intended).

Your match ups against Goblins is probably pretty good since you just need to drop Arc-Slogger or Jitte to fight them, but I mean, modern Goblins have ways to fight that now. As a Goblin player, creatures really aren't that scary so Arc-Slogger will probably be in your hand after you spent your entire turn trying to Seething Song and powering him out. Your Jitte is quite scary, but I know you are playing Dragon Stompy, so you have almost no creatures compared to Goblins, so we'd just swarm you and remove anything you drop so there is nothing for you to equip.

I've never tried Ratchet Bomb against Fish, so I have no comment here, but I do have a commentary about your back up plan: "one super-aggressive burst." How aggressive can Dragon Stompy be in a field where Emrakuls come down turn 1, 8-18 Goblin Tokens come down turn 1, Iona comes down turn 1, Progentius comes down turn 3. Your strongest play I can possibly see is maybe: Seething Song, Seething Song into Trinisphere and Arc-Slogger, or Seething Song, pitch Simian Spirit Guide into Chalice and Rakdos. I guess Rakdos is quite scary if you have hellbent. LOL, I just had an idea, why don't you guys play LED to pump your Rakdos or shoot with Arc-Slogger...

@jin: see, the problem with reconfiguring DS as cheap fat backed by llight disruption is that you have no sources of card advantage, and all the decks that do in legacy can just 1 for 1 you to death. Furthermore, you have no reactive answer to many of the killer cards in Legacy. This deck has to play like Roshambo: If your attempts to kick your opponenent in the nuts early don't succeed, say goodbye yo your testes satchel.

Sorry, I do not see. He did not give a coherent argument in defending why cheap fat creatures backed by light disruption is insufficient. He simply stated and restated it that as apparent fact. I see where you guys might think that card advantage is a factor but as I already explained, it is not.

I do not understand what "1 for 1 you to death" means. Does that mean they can remove your creatures 1 for 1 because I thought Chalice stops that and Thorn slows all of the stronger stuff down.

Please elaborate on killer cards in Legacy. Did you mean Tendrils of Agony, Tarmogoyf, Jace2, Vengevine, Progenitus, Knight of the Reliquary, what?

I really like your analogy.

Zupponn

12-06-2010, 12:44 AM

Ozymandias

12-06-2010, 01:19 AM

Cheap creatures backed up by light disruption is insufficient because Legacy is broken as fuck, so you need heavy, heavy disruption or blinding speed. If you don't run as many disruptive elements as you possibly can, other decks in the format will do a tapdance on your face with anything from 3 vengevines swinging on turn 3 to tendrils for 22 to Iona and 6 zombies. Dragon stompy has to stop this shit proactively because it has no reactive answers to anything like that besides at best a keg/bomb or the like.

So, that means you need to have something like a 90% chance to drop a disruptive element turn 1. But legacy decks are resilient, and you can't guarantee your one hate piece is actually going to win the game in a format with stuff like Force of Will and the like. So you would ideally like to open at least 50% of your hands with 2 pieces of disruption. This means you need at least 14-15 pieces of disruption, which give you a 52-56% chance of opening on at least two, and an 86%-88% chance of opening on at least one.

So there's 15 slots. As far as I know, Moon, Chalice, Magus, and trinisphere are the best disruption available in 1-card packages that can come down turn 1, so let's put those 15 cards in.

Now, we need acceleration. the 2-lands and chrome mox are obvious fits, as is SSG. We do need a stable source of red mana, so 10 mountains make their way in. that's 26 cards. We're up to 41 cards now.

Okay, now we need to kill the opponenent. You'll notice our single-minded focus on rushing lock pieces out means we have no card advantage, so hellbent dudes are really good here. 4 Gathan Raiders/4 Rakdos Pit Dragon. We're up to 49 cards, but only 8 of those are actually beefy dudes, so we need some more. Now, what are you going to run here? Note that it has to be
-Mono-red
-Not cost 1 or 2 mana
-Be a 4 turn clock at maximum
-Can't be too fragile
Arc-Slogger is the best guy that fits these characteristics, since his shock-matic ability just turns games around. There are other options, like Lord, but it's really just a 4RR 6/6 over two turns, and max leveling is way too slow to turn games around like Slogger does. But sloggers are bad in multiples, so let's just put 3 in. That's 52 cards.

Now that we have expensive stuff like slogger and dragon, Seething Song is looking attractive, and we don't care about the lack of card economy since remember, our plan is to Roshambo our opponents before they do the same to us. Lock piece+threat or 2x lock piece is IMO our best shot. 4x song gets us to 56 cards. Now, you can pretty much do what you like with the last 4 slots--kargan, shatterskull, koth, taurean, bomb, Jitte, Kavu, Rakroma, Sulfur, anything is possible when you use man cards like Blood Moon. Basically, while you are being cute with fucking hill giants, I am planning to drop 3-mana cards that say "\win the game" as quickly as opssible.

Also, 3sphere is by no means dead versus stuff like Zoo or Goblins. Slowing them down to 1 spell a turn can buy you enough time to find another lock piece or win with some fatties. And sure 3 sphere is worse on the draw--so is the whole deck.

jin

12-06-2010, 01:42 AM

Trinisphere is superior to Thorn of Amethyst because it makes 0 and 1 drops cost three, while the stone only makes them cost one or two. The thorn is also an almost to totally useless card versus a creature based deck, depending on the deck, while Trinisphere is not. I for one would want a card in my mainboard that isn't dead in certain matchups, and also remember that Trinisphere is better against cards like Force and Swords, which see a lot of play and can stop you dead in your tracks.

I am aware of Trinisphere's advantages. I am also aware of Thorn's disadvantages. Creature based decks have removal, therefore Thorn is not dead because it slows down their ability to cut away at your limited creatures fulfilling the same roll trinisphere would.

I have main deck removal so resolved creatures don't bother me. My creatures are often bigger and scarier so my opponents are forced to sit and wait.

Thorn is weaker in that it does not slow down their creatures and only slows down their utility. Goblin is a good example because Thorn only hits 4 cards in a mono colour build. I get that, but that's why I run only 3. I run them to suppliment Chalice and not to replace Trinisphere. Think about it, here is a hypothetical hand versus Goblin on turn 1 on the draw. They have Goblin Lackey out already:

Trinisphere, Ancient Tomb, Simian Spirit Guide, Seething Song, Chrome Mox, Rakdos, Gathan Raider
vs.
Thorn of Amethyst, Ancient Tomb, Simian Spirit Guide, Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox, Rakdos, Gathan Raider

You power out a first turn 3sphere and a Gathan Raider and I drop Thorn and Gathan Raider. The Goblin player still can't attack me unless he rips a Sting Scourger where as you have a hard-lock. Let's say he does have a stinger, he stings my Raider and swings getting a goblin. If I rip a pyrokinesis, that doesn't matter anymore. For you, he just wait a turn, then bounce your dude and then it's down hill from there for you where as I still have a fighting chance vis-a-vis my 24 creatures and main Pyrokinesis versus a more traditional build. If he doesn't rip a stinger, I'm still in it just like you are. Except you might have 7-8 Blood Moons which will screw you over in the end where as I only have 4 and they are 2/2's.

People on this thread keeps telling me that they want "cards.. that isn't dead in certain matchups" and "best cards" and "least dead cards" but I'm sorry, Thorn is less of a dead card than Trinisphere. Trinisphere is win-more and is only strong in your easy match ups like Countertop, Tempo Thresh, TES, etc. It is weak in the match ups you need it the most where as Thorn is not dead in those match ups: ie. Stax, The Might Quinn, Landstill. Also, Thorn is not dead in multiples.

Yes, Trinisphere is better against Force and Swords. What's better against Humility, Jace2/Elspeth, Deeds, Firespout, Vindicate/Pulse, Equipment all of which are devastating to Dragon. Sorry, I don't believe a Force of Will mid-game will stop me dead in my tracks.

Cheap creatures backed up by light disruption is insufficient because Legacy is broken as fuck, so you need heavy, heavy disruption or blinding speed. If you don't run as many disruptive elements as you possibly can, other decks in the format will do a tapdance on your face with anything from 3 vengevines swinging on turn 3 to tendrils for 22 to Iona and 6 zombies. Dragon stompy has to stop this shit proactively because it has no reactive answers to anything like that besides at best a keg/bomb or the like.

So, that means you need to have something like a 90% chance to drop a disruptive element turn 1. But legacy decks are resilient, and you can't guarantee your one hate piece is actually going to win the game in a format with stuff like Force of Will and the like. So you would ideally like to open at least 50% of your hands with 2 pieces of disruption. This means you need at least 14-15 pieces of disruption, which give you a 52-56% chance of opening on at least two, and an 86%-88% chance of opening on at least one.

Arc-Slogger is the best guy that fits these characteristics, since his shock-matic ability just turns games around. There are other options, like Lord, but it's really just a 4RR 6/6 over two turns, and max leveling is way too slow to turn games around like Slogger does. But sloggers are bad in multiples, so let's just put 3 in. That's 52 cards.

Also, 3sphere is by no means dead versus stuff like Zoo or Goblins. Slowing them down to 1 spell a turn can buy you enough time to find another lock piece or win with some fatties. And sure 3 sphere is worse on the draw--so is the whole deck.

Yes, I admit I haven't totally figured out the Vengevine match up yet, but all of the other decksx you mentioned seem to be combo decks. I think Thorn and Chalice will suffice.

Regarding your advocation of hard locks, I understand Legacy is fast and decks are resiliant and that is precisely why I would opt for cheaper fast locks than more expensive hard locks. Like CounterTop, Chalice and Thorn help make it difficult for your oppoent to develop their own board, but we have to rememeber that CounterTop cannot be played as a hardlock early on or else the CounterTop player will also be rushed down by the faster opponents. This calls to my attention that soft locks are better in Legacy because it helps you develop your own board as well as slows down the development of the oppoent's board.

Of course, I am saying all of this while giving you the benefit of the doubt, because in testing, players will learn that Moon/Trinisphere are cards that are specified against a certain type of deck and are not necessarily a hard lock to ALL Legacy decks. Your traffic light needs to be held up where as my speed bump stands on its own.

I'm sorry, I didn't do the numbers, so I'll let the calculating stuff to you. If 15 pieces are necessary, then my deck is rather light on lock pieces. I'd add more but there isn't anything that I see would fit unless they come out with another Magus that is useful (I refuse to cut creatures except for maybe Kavu against decks that don't play creatures... I think it would kill itself?)

Yes, Lord of Shatterskull Pass is RR4 for 6/6 and yes, I never max him, but he is a 6/6 that comes out a turn earlier than Arc-Slogger. Also, he costs R instead of RR so he comes out easier. A lot of Dragon Stompy players will notice that RR is rather hard to get. Seething Song tricks you into thinking you have more coloured mana than you actually have. Arc-Slogger is great, but he can be replaced. Also Lord of Shatterskull Pass has a 4 turn clock where as Arc-Slogger by himself has a 5 turn clock (which means he doesn't fit your criterion). He's a 4/5.

Another note I wanted to add is that I feel with your math added, you are aiming more towards a prison deck than a "stompy" deck. I think Stax is more taxing than Dragon Stompy, maybe you should look into it. Faerie Stompy works fine with just Chalice and Force of Will. I don't think my build strays too far away from that. With 15 lock pieces and 18 lands, that's already more than half of your deck. You also have acceleration, so you don't have much room to do the stomping. I feel that Dragon should try to retain it's aggro aspect as much as possible. Instead of trying to do everything, Dragon Stompy players should just try to do what they do best, stomp face.

Ratchet bomb is really helpful versus a bunch of stuff. For instance, DS is kind of weak versus an opposing vial, or Empty tokens on t1 (which a lot of storm combo decks should go for versus you). It's not the most powerful card, but it gives you a lot of flexibility versus random junk like Enchantress. I really just got tired of drawing two trinispheres and uncastable Kavus. Bomb can also help you mop up stuff that slips under your chalice wall.

Upon further testing, it seems I have underrated Ratchet Bomb. I did not realize that it differred from Powder Keg THAT much and now I find that 4x Ratchet Bomb is necessary in order to keep order in the Dragon ruled kingdom. Therefore I have removed the City of Traitors from my side for the fourth Ratchet Bomb.

Ratchet Bomb not only suppliments Anarchy and Thorn of Amethyst in the white control match ups, it also works well as removal for "random junk" and also suppliments Pyrokinesis, and Pyroclasm in the tribal match ups. Thanks for the tip.

PS: Koth is a power house against control decks like Landstill and Enchantress. I just tested him. Sick... I think he's a great replacement for Akroma and even Boil.

mercs

12-06-2010, 02:41 AM

...

...

Easy guys. Easy. Jeebus, I feel like there's so much frustration around this deck, that every dozen posts or so, people are getting into arguments over playstyle, arc-slogger, or Consistency DS vs Hellbent DS.

I don't think I'm considered a senior member in any respects, but I've been piloting this deck for the past 3-4 yrs. If you guys didn't realize, you guys are having the same argument that many others have had for years before u! It's like a vicious cycle in the twilight zone and I've got to warn u guys not to make the same mistake I made jumping onto this thread lol. Now, to the comments (CDS= consistency dragon stompy similar to jin's, HDS = hellbent dragon stompy/original).

As far as where this deck stands in the meta, it's not bad at all imo. It's quite good. The top decks right now are CB Top, Landstill, Merfolk, Combo, and Survival. The only bad matchup is survival. This is actually a good thing as we used to have a lot of bad/even matchups like enchantress, stax, deadguy's ale, eva green, aggro loam etc...remember those days? These bad/even mu's now makeup a Very small portion of the meta in most areas.

I've held my own recently (possibly even better than in the past) and I believe any of u can do the same. As for the question "Is CDS better or HDS?" My answer is NEITHER! Honestly, it all comes down to play style. It shows exactly in Jin and Ozy's opinions of 1st priority for moves! Most of the lists i've seen can do quite well against goblins, merfolk, zoo, TES, etc. The matchups rarely change. The list you choose should be the list that you feel accompanies your play style, so practice with both. I used to feel that it was stupid that there was a thread for "Zoo" and a thread for "Naya Sligh", but I can see now why they are different, bc people play drastically different and value things like timing, control, and game state very different.

As for Jin's list, great job. I do believe that the petals combined with the thorn actually does fit nicer in CDS. As for flametongue against Survival, I agree less bc they attack you for 16 first, then you take care of 2 of them, but you still got 2 left to go and recursion ability.

As for Ozy, trini's are very debatable to go up to 4 in HDS. There are many budget players who are forced to learn how to play TES well so they can take advantage of survival players, and that population is vastly growing. Several t8's are seeing a lot of Storm in other countries.

Whichever list you choose is very tweekable to defeat zoo, landstill, merfolk, tes, goblins, elves, etc, So hopefully we can focus more on the survival matchup now. Any other mu has been beaten like a dead horse. At the end of the day, I hope both lists do very well because the value of mix-ups, and unpredictability will only strengthen our matchups against others. Sorry for this long post. I'll understand if I get a lot of "tldr's", but hopefully this got through to some of you, so we won't have to keep having the same convo's on the DS thread.

jin

12-06-2010, 02:54 AM

I've held my own recently (possibly even better than in the past) and I believe any of u can do the same. As for the question "Is CDS better or HDS?" My answer is NEITHER! Honestly, it all comes down to play style. It shows exactly in Jin and Ozy's opinions of 1st priority for moves! Most of the lists i've seen can do quite well against goblins, merfolk, zoo, TES, etc. The matchups rarely change. The list you choose should be the list that you feel accompanies your play style, so practice with both. I used to feel that it was stupid that there was a thread for "Zoo" and a thread for "Naya Sligh", but I can see now why they are different, bc people play drastically different and value things like timing, control, and game state very different.

As for Jin's list, great job. I do believe that the petals combined with the thorn actually does fit nicer in CDS. As for flametongue against Survival, I agree less bc they attack you for 16 first, then you take care of 2 of them, but you still got 2 left to go and recursion ability.

As for Ozy, trini's are very debatable to go up to 4 in HDS. There are many budget players who are forced to learn how to play TES well so they can take advantage of survival players, and that population is vastly growing. Several t8's are seeing a lot of Storm in other countries.

Whichever list you choose is very tweekable to defeat zoo, landstill, merfolk, tes, goblins, elves, etc, So hopefully we can focus more on the survival matchup now. Any other mu has been beaten like a dead horse. At the end of the day, I hope both lists do very well because the value of mix-ups, and unpredictability will only strengthen our matchups against others. Sorry for this long post. I'll understand if I get a lot of "tldr's", but hopefully this got through to some of you, so we won't have to keep having the same convo's on the DS thread.

I'm not frustrated, I'm just trying to get some perspective on the matter. It doesn't seem like people are listening to reasoning or giving valid arguments except stating facts that have already been stated (ie. what 3sphere does to a Swords to Plowshare). Oh yes, I feel that I'm getting a lot of TL;DR too. LOL. I still don't get the difference between Naya Sligh and Zoo, but whatever. I don't really read those threads. Also, I apologize for bringing up an argument that happened awhile ago as I am a recent reader of the Dragon thread (last few months).

I totally agree with what you said about the Kavu. I'm not advocating that Kavu is good against Vengevine, I just don't feel that it performs so poorly that it would be labelled as "bad."

Yes, 3sphere is awesome against combo, but Thorn isn't bad. Chalice is also very strong against combo. But I mean, unless you can shut down Shattering Spree, none of this matters.

I'm stuck on the Vengevine match up also. The poeple on the Goblin thread agree that disrupting Vengevine Survival's manabase is a viable strategy. I don't know how Dragon will do this though....

PS: Dues of Calamity + Pyrokinesis?.. there is a thought...