[Deck] Dragon Stompy

[Masamune]

IMO I did not like jin's list... looks like "aggro hate" than "lock piece deck"...
If you wanna run a couple of stuffs to handle with Fishes and Zoos, do not go with DS...
Tacosnape said a few days ago: "you are missing the point" and I agree with him. DS is a multiple "lock deck" option, a long time ago when the non-basics came to dominate everything in meta: Lands decks, Dark Dephts decks, Loam decks, Landstill decks... so according to the environment that we aways think before play Legacy's event, DS must be the key to handle with non-basics.
My point is: agrro-meta > change your mind, not the coredeck :[

[jin]

IMO I did not like jin's list... looks like "aggro hate" than "lock piece deck"...
If you wanna run a couple of stuffs to handle with Fishes and Zoos, do not go with DS...
Tacosnape said a few days ago: "you are missing the point" and I agree with him. DS is a multiple "lock deck" option, a long time ago when the non-basics came to dominate everything in meta: Lands decks, Dark Dephts decks, Loam decks, Landstill decks... so according to the environment that we aways think before play Legacy's event, DS must be the key to handle with non-basics.
My point is: agrro-meta > change your mind, not the coredeck :[

So basically what you are saying is: if the meta is full of aggro, don't change the deck - just don't play it?

[Ozymandias]

If the aggro isn't crippled by Blood Moon or Chalice like Zoo, then yes.

I was actually thinking of changing my flex slots into Avalanche Riders, which would keep decks from using their 1-of basics. Too cute?

[Koby]

Stone Rain :o

[jin]

If the aggro isn't crippled by Blood Moon or Chalice like Zoo, then yes.



Well then, since the purpose of this thread is now moot, there isn't much more to say. Farewell and good luck.

[mercs]

If the aggro isn't crippled by Blood Moon or Chalice like Zoo, then yes.

I was actually thinking of changing my flex slots into Avalanche Riders, which would keep decks from using their 1-of basics. Too cute?

I haven't had too much success with the avalanche riders personally. I tried him a lot when people were talking of the possibility of going ponza, but it never really worked out. Even though ruckus was joking about the stone rain, that's pretty much what it comes down to. I almost never wanted to echo except under desperation when I was already gonna lose.

As for fortune thief, that was pretty helpful for me in my last tournament. No one was expecting it, and it was also a beast in the merfolk matchup too. Getting overrun by merfolk and elves/progenitus is a problem that's not too daunting anymore.

My biggest problem though is that I think ppl realize the Ooze survival is better than the madness survival, so even with fortune thief, ooze or shriekmaw willl just take it down. I'd have to get a good lock by taking out black sources and chalice b4 i can sit down on fortune thief alone.

[Tivon]

Flame tongue kavu is good against vengvine, not because it hits vengvine, but because if it follows up a turn one moon effect or chalice at 1, they aren't going to have their bird or heirarch anymore. They also either won't be able to play their other one drops or won't be able to fetch out anything else.

Kavu has to hit before vengvines hit. If vengvines are on the table, you have already lost without a fortune theif (provided you play it)

@trinisphere: one of the best cards in the deck right now. slows down vengvine plan a ton... with moons down, slows them down a hell of a lot more even

Slogger can also ping the little guys that get them around moon, which is huge. Slogger is also good against tribal. Really good. I can remember a few games where I had turn one slogger against tribal and they were all sorts of frowntown..

If you are looking to address vengvine decks, trinisphere is one of the best cards available in the mainboard. That slogger is also good in this matchup as well as magnificent in the tribal matchup is also a good indicator (to me at least) to run no less than two.

I usually run 14 lockpieces, 14 beatsticks, and the standard mana accell package and two jitte which has provided a good number of easy wins and not many unwinnable matchups.

That being said, the Meta right now is a bit easier to ride through as a tendrils player, so for a while at least I'll probably be keeping dragon stompy on the back burner

[0dysseus]

Without being a true expert in the deck, I'd like to underline the crucial points I like and agree with in the recent discussion. Pardon me for not being brief.


Hate to be this guy, but you wouldn't lose nearly as badly to Goblins, Faeries, or random things like Nim Shriker if you'd RUN ARC SLOGGER.
[...] You HAVE to play game-winning cards.
[...] Even Kargan Dragonlord can work it's way up to 8/8 flying and give it a run for its money.


[...]
Shatterskull is still "Mr. Bigger than Goyf" whats more than often enough, and in stall games [or even much other games thx to Koth and Seething Song] with his Ultimate, which is just wicked sick you just Win. [...]


[...]
- Lord of Shatterskull Pass is HUGE the following turn. I don't know what people don't like about him. I just know that he costs R and 3 generic which makes him really cheap. Dragon sometimes suffer from a lack of red, well it doesn't matter much to this guy.
[...]
As an extra found in my main deck that most Dragon decks don't have are Pyrokinesis. I feel that Dragon desperately needs removal...[...]


1) No Arc-Slogger whyyyy.
[...]


Ratchet bomb is really helpful versus a bunch of stuff. [...] Bomb can also help you mop up stuff that slips under your chalice wall. [...]


Trinisphere is superior to Thorn of Amethyst because it makes 0 and 1 drops cost three, while the stone only makes them cost one or two. The thorn is also an almost to totally useless card versus a creature based deck, depending on the deck, while Trinisphere is not. I for one would want a card in my mainboard that isn't dead in certain matchups, and also remember that Trinisphere is better against cards like Force and Swords, which see a lot of play and can stop you dead in your tracks.


[...]
Also, 3sphere is by no means dead versus stuff like Zoo or Goblins. Slowing them down to 1 spell a turn can buy you enough time to find another lock piece or win with some fatties. And sure 3 sphere is worse on the draw--so is the whole deck.



[...]
If I rip a pyrokinesis, that doesn't matter anymore. For you, he just wait a turn, then bounce your dude and then it's down hill from there for you where as I still have a fighting chance vis-a-vis my 24 creatures and main Pyrokinesis versus a more traditional build.
[...]
Thorn is not dead in multiples.

Yes, Trinisphere is better against Force and Swords. What's better against Humility, Jace2/Elspeth, Deeds, Firespout, Vindicate/Pulse, Equipment all of which are devastating to Dragon. Sorry, I don't believe a Force of Will mid-game will stop me dead in my tracks.
[...]
Yes, Lord of Shatterskull Pass is RR4 for 6/6 and yes, I never max him, but he is a 6/6 that comes out a turn earlier than Arc-Slogger. Also, he costs R instead of RR so he comes out easier. A lot of Dragon Stompy players will notice that RR is rather hard to get.
[...]
Upon further testing, it seems I have underrated Ratchet Bomb. I did not realize that it differred from Powder Keg THAT much and now I find that 4x Ratchet Bomb is necessary in order to keep order in the Dragon ruled kingdom. Therefore I have removed the City of Traitors from my side for the fourth Ratchet Bomb.
[...]




[...]
As for the question "Is CDS better or HDS?" My answer is NEITHER! Honestly, it all comes down to play style. It shows exactly in Jin and Ozy's opinions of 1st priority for moves! Most of the lists i've seen can do quite well against goblins, merfolk, zoo, TES, etc. The matchups rarely change. The list you choose should be the list that you feel accompanies your play style, so practice with both. I used to feel that it was stupid that there was a thread for "Zoo" and a thread for "Naya Sligh", but I can see now why they are different, bc people play drastically different and value things like timing, control, and game state very different.

As for Jin's list, great job. I do believe that the petals combined with the thorn actually does fit nicer in CDS. As for flametongue against Survival, I agree less bc they attack you for 16 first, then you take care of 2 of them, but you still got 2 left to go and recursion ability.
[...]




[...]
I would hardly consider Arc-Slogger's burning ability as a finisher unless they were at 2 or 4. I seriously doubt you'd use it that way instead of burning their creatures, but if you say so.


Flame tongue kavu is good against vengvine, not because it hits vengvine, but because if it follows up a turn one moon effect or chalice at 1, they aren't going to have their bird or heirarch anymore. They also either won't be able to play their other one drops or won't be able to fetch out anything else.

Kavu has to hit before vengvines hit. If vengvines are on the table, you have already lost without a fortune theif (provided you play it)


And my 2 cents:

About Arc-Sloggers:
Even without card drawing, 4 of them are can often be topdecked in multiples chief:D However, it has never occured to me -when I play two of them- to either ruin Hellbent, or not be able to use them immediately[or almost]. Thus, even fanatics against Slogger HAVE NO EXCUSE FOR NOT PLAYING AT LEAST 1 COPY OF THIS BEAST!
I challenge all of you to find me an excuse for not playing 1. Even Francesco Dalla Via.

About game winning cards:
I believe the positive difference in this deck will be made when all of our cards will be ultra strong, early or late game. That will be achieved by: (1)cutting some of the undesired-in-multiples cards, without simultaneously losing a good chance to see them around, (2)adding different game winning cards, even 1-ofs. (1)+(2)=same number of game winning cards, with a more random game winning plan, and the danger of losing Hellbent or having a lot of dead draws eliminated as much as it can be.
Example 1: Mauler is good early game + bad late game = I won't play Mauler, if I can find something good in both scenarios like Lord of SP or Dragonlord.
Example 2: I won't play more than 1 Jitte. If I want more equipment, I can pack Sword of Fire and Ice, which is great against 2 of the most common DTBs.

About Blood Moons:
Jin...the 7-8 Moons not only mana-deny the opponent, they also help us not lose our Cities of Traitors and not being killed by our own Tombs! We don't like it when we give more red mana to Goblins...but we SURE like it when they can't use their Ports and Wastelands. What's your argument about this comrade?:D

About Lord of Shatterskull Pass:
Castable. Huge. Anytime.

About Trinisphere vs. Thorn of Jin:
There are times when we all hate Trin' and the opposite. But it sure is an Arcane Laboratory for cheap spell decks, even if you play it a little later. It also serves as a good pest if chalice is removed,versus all spells, not only non-creature... And Jin if you really want an answer to your question


[...]What's better against Humility, Jace2/Elspeth, Deeds, Firespout, Vindicate/Pulse, Equipment all of which are devastating to Dragon.[...]
then (if you exclude Firespout & equips) my answer regarding the rest is simple: Blood Moon!
I like your spirit, trying to think out of the box, and your reasoning about your choices is valid. But in your good effort to devise something better -which I respect, and know that works better in certain metagames- I think you omitted some choices that are better against a wider variety of targets. My guess is that you started thinking with Thorns as a ruler, kicking out Moon and Trin because they would be slow and unpurposeful to cast at 4. The 0-cost would cost 1 then, and Chalice couldn't be omitted, so you used 3 Thorns in order to get a Chalice first and not let them mess with each other. Am I right? I have to admit I like your plan's 24 creature count, and your maidecked removal ideas.

About DRAGON STOMPY as a good/bad meta choice:
Some people like me don't want to spend tons of bucks to buy Duals, Forces, etc.. So while it's useful to state that DS is not a good meta choice to let people get an idea, it's also good to suggest the best way DS can stand in the meta, even if it's a mediocre choice. People with only 1 good Legacy deck in their arsenal appreciate it:))

About 1st turn defeats:
I don't care about them, we can't have everything. They don't impress me either. If you hate this, Mindbreak Trap them perhaps.

About removal:
Lockpieces are removed, mana-denial isn't always viable, pests slip through, Crash-Boom-Bang! I strongly agree that we need maindeck removal of some kind. Let me give you the list I played in the last 28 people tournament 1 week ago, which's results I'm embarrassed to report due to some childish play mistakes:)) I can't forgive myself for playing Chalice at 1 versus Ravager...Finished 11th.

4 City
4 Tomb
10 Mountain

4 C.Mox
4 S.Songs

4 Chalice
3 Moon
3 Trini

4 SSG
4 R.P.Dragon
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Raiders
2 Arc-Sloggers
2 Lord of Shitterskull Pass

1 Jitte
1 SoFI

2 Volcanic Fallout

SB:
4 Pithing Needle
3 Pyroblast
2 Anarchy
1 Smash
3 Faerie Macabre
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Goblin Assault

I really wanted to test Aftershocks again, but I also wanted to be sure about my deck..so no Akromas, no quartet of Sloggers, no Maulers, no funny or randomly-excellent stuff. Why 1 Smash? To have 5 anti-artifact pieces(counting Needles). Why "Smash"? Leave it..(I just like instant surprises like Macabre). Why the hell Goblin Ass.?? To have a random game winning chance against Mono-Black Random Ones, which some dudes used to play. It is also good against Humility, and I had the suicidal curiosity to test it against Goblins too.That didn't happen.
OKAY! Smash and Ass should be two more Fallouts. Maybe maindecked, with the equipments sided. Or 3 in plus Jitte. So,

(1) Do you think 4 removals maidecked are too much? What is the best combo? 4 Volcanic Fallouts, 4 Ratchet Bombs, 1+3 or 3+1 of them? I think bombs are more effective earlier due to their "charging" time loss, so 3-4 Bombs should be a lot better than 2. Fallouts on the other hand can be imprinted (unfortunately they cost 1RR), can be used to deal dmg to a player, and are an instant solution vs weenies contrary to the bombs.
For me, these two are the best solutions concerning removal. I don't like removing equipments from my list, thus weakening even more my 2/2's, but if I can open the way for them, they don't need more support. Jin & Ozy seem to be right in this...and personally I'd take the bombs maindecked for being versatile and game turning/winning in more situations than VFs.

(2) Do you think 20 creatures are too few?

(3) Do you think 3 Moons and 3 Trinis total (main+sb) are a mistake nowadays?

I apologise for this long post. I tried to summarise the debate from my aspect.

[Masamune]

Please forget Avalanche Riders... it is terrible xD

[jin]

...

I wasn't planning to post here again, but since someone with a valid argument called me out, I had to give a reply. I'll try to keep it short:

Arc-Slogger]: I don't hate him. I just don't have room to fit him in the list. I have sufficient removal that are cheaper in terms of mana symbol and converted mana cost. With the investment I have to put into casting an Arc-Slogger (usually life and acceleration and a turn), I would rather cast multiple other spells instead. I agree that Arc-Slogger is game changing, but so is Rakdos, which is enough for me.

Other game winning cards: Your plan sounds great on paper, but I have to disagree with you here. This will only cause inconsistancy. An army is both game changing and consistant (although not a single card).

Blood Moon: My argument about moon saving us from port? Run creatures with lower CMC so that one land being ported (no matter if it is a 2land or a Mountain) doesn't slow us down too much. Ports might affect builds that play with too many 5cmc creatures, but my build, creatures are only 3 or 4 and single R outside of Rakdos. My argument about moon saving our 2lands from wastelands. Run more mountains as I have. I play goblins, this works. If my ports don't stop you from casting things, I'll stop porting you, because if goblins can't stop you with control, they'll try to swarm you.

Trinisphere: Yes, it is an arcane laboratory for some decks. But let me make it really simple for you guys. In the combo match up where we like Trinisphere, Thorn is also effective, so we'll ignore it. Trinisphere is almost pointless in the control match up like Landstill/Stax/CounterThopter. And everyone on this thread is arguing that Thorn is useless in the aggro match up. So the only relevant argument here is the last one. Can we all agree that Thorn sucks in the aggro match up? Since Thorn is useless in the aggro match up, it shouldn't be played. But wait, aggro decks play removal and Thorns slow down removal almost the same way as Trinisphere does. But they can still cast creatures. But wait, I have a solution to the flaw in my own plan. Thorn allows me to play Pyrokinesis maindeck. Any further questions?

Answering my question: Thank you so much for even reading it. That is a very good answer but I don't know if it will suffice. Elspeth and Humility can be seen in monocoloured decks like The Mighty Quinn, Dutch Stax, and even enchantress has those pesky enchantments that make coloured mana so moon does nothing to them (I'm assuming worst case scenario where you didn't get to drop moon before they went). Also decks that play Pernicious Deeds, Pulse, play Hierarch and Birds of Paradise. Blood Moon is the most effective when they don't expect it (I know this from Goblins), but if you are playing Dragon, common, it doesn't take a scientist.

Answering your questions:
1. No, four is not enough. That's why I'm forced to run the Kavus. There are too many creatures in Legacy and Dragon packs too little removal. Equipment is strong, but they are slow. With Arc-Sloggers and equipment, you could probably play less removal, but I don't think they'll be enough early enough. You'll probably slowly add more and slowly decrease your equipment as I have going from 4 to 2 to 0.

Yeah, your 2/2's are only for swinging if the path is clear. Clear them with Pyrokinesis (it's a bomb).

2. Yes, Zoo runs around 20 and they struggle to get damage through. That's why they play burns.

3. No comment needed here. Everyone knows what I think.

Additional: You run Volcanic Fallout. I've tried this, I've also tried Pyroclasm in the main because I like to cut R symbols from my Dragon Deck. In the end they don't work. The reason mainly being that if things have less than 3 toughness now a days, they are not threats to your life total directly. That being said, things that ARE a direct threat to your life total will almost always have more than 2 toughness. If you play them, you'll board them out against Fish/Zoo/Countertop/Landstill (because of Jace2)/Dark Horizons/Aggro Loam/Mirror/etc. If you play Pyrokinesis, you'll keep them in against Fish/Zoo/Mirror at the very least.

PS: Why do people keep telling me what Arc-Slogger and Trinisphere does? I can read. Instead why don't people tell me in what situations these cards are better, besides the already discusses Thorn can't slow down creatures (refer to above for answer.. in short, removal.)

If you love Arc-Slogger, you can always shove him in the Kavu slot.

[Masamune]

....

Hey dude, u're wrong. Is better run Blood moons than take then off and run more mountains!
Furthermore Thorn allows you to play Pyrokinesis maindeck. Ok, but you forgot we can hold on Forces and Dazes whith 3sphere... also Thorn is bad... can u test ur deck in some event in future soon? Can u report here after handle with multiple meta? :\

My current list:

Mainboard:
Creatures (20):
2 Arc-Slogger
2 Kazuul
4 Gathan Raiders
1 Lord of Shatterskull Pass
4 Magus of the Moon
3 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Simian Spirit Guide

Others (22):
4 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song
4 Trinisphere
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Lands (18):
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Mountain

SB:

4 Kinesis
4 Bombs
2 Tormods
3 Pithing
2 Anarch

Listen jin IMO Jitte + Arc + Kazuul + Lord + Bombs and Kinesis is enough to handle with aggro decks and the main part of the deck was not modified too much ^^

[Tacosnape]

I find it hilarious that a deck with virtually no relevance in the Legacy metagame AND that is famous for the thread being cluttered with complete idiocy has managed a full page of long, constructive, well-thought out (even when wrong) posts, something that most other threads struggle to ever do.

I'll pretty much say what Ozymandias says. If the metagame's not ripe for Dragon Stompy, you don't play the deck.

Also, in the Trinisphere-versus-Thorn discussion, which shouldn't even -be- a discussion, it should be mentioned that Trinisphere is virtually one-sided for Dragon Stompy, where Thorn isn't as much so.

[Masamune]

I'll pretty much say what Ozymandias says. If the metagame's not ripe for Dragon Stompy, you don't play the deck.


Ok, but I considered the meta maybe 75% control/combo and the remainder aggro. Most of the deck still has lockpieces

[jin]

Hey dude, u're wrong. Is better run Blood moons than take then off and run more mountains!
Furthermore Thorn allows you to play Pyrokinesis maindeck. Ok, but you forgot we can hold on Forces and Dazes whith 3sphere... also Thorn is bad... can u test ur deck in some event in future soon? Can u report here after handle with multiple meta? :\

Listen jin IMO Jitte + Arc + Kazuul + Lord + Bombs and Kinesis is enough to handle with aggro decks and the main part of the deck was not modified too much ^^

"You are wrong" is NOT an argument for Blood Moon or Trinisphere. I forgot Thorn of Amethyst doesn't affect Force or Daze... wait... it does. Honestly, I don't care about Force or Daze. Daze can be paid for since there is acceleration in Dragon. Force is card advantage for us which some of you are whining about. If they were going to Force something, it would have been your Trinisphere or my Chalice. They would consider not Forcing Thorn, but that's ok with me too.

I would like to test my deck in some event in the future, but since many are discrediting my list as not viable at all, I'm thinking I'll just stick with TES. I have reported that I can handle Goblins/Fish and Jank which are usually bad match ups for Dragon Stompy because of their solid manabase.

Yes I agree they can handle aggro. I personally think Bomb, Kinesis, kavu/lord is enough, but if you want to play more, go crazy.


I find it hilarious that a deck with virtually no relevance in the Legacy metagame AND that is famous for the thread being cluttered with complete idiocy has managed a full page of long, constructive, well-thought out (even when wrong) posts, something that most other threads struggle to ever do.

I'll pretty much say what Ozymandias says. If the metagame's not ripe for Dragon Stompy, you don't play the deck.

Also, in the Trinisphere-versus-Thorn discussion, which shouldn't even -be- a discussion, it should be mentioned that Trinisphere is virtually one-sided for Dragon Stompy, where Thorn isn't as much so.

Haha, I don't know whether I should thank you for your reply or be annoyed at it. Again, "you are wrong" is not an argument. Yes, I thought about the list for awhile...

You do, however, bring up a good point that neither Ozymandias nor any of the other people that have confronted me about this topic has mentioned and that is symmetry in the lock pieces. The problem I faced before when playing Dragon was that Trinisphere's effect differs from deck to deck. Sometimes, it is like you said asymmetrical and that's when it's awesome. Other times, it can be manipulated so that it has no effect on the opponent either. What then? You have three of them in your deck and you can't pitch any of them to Chrome Mox (which now costs 3 mana...)

You end up holding onto your precious Arc-Sloggers and Trinispheres and Blood Moons. I guess there is one benefit to all of this. You all get to keep those three close to your heart.

Anyway, this will probably be my last post as there is no other argument on this thread except that I'm wrong (which is still not a valid argument btw...). Sorry if my post doesn't seem very coherent or cohesive, I'm getting tired of reading arguments that have nothing to do with the topic and replying people that haven't read my arguments already but want to take a stab at my idea. I'd like to thank everyone who provided constructive criticism and perspective. This is what I needed.

[Ozymandias]

What are the decks that trinisphere works against?

Goblins: Only if they get in there with a Vial before you drop sphere. Otherwise, they have to choose between running threats out and running answers out--answers which they might not even be able to tutor for/use effectively.
Merfolk: Only if they get in there with Vial before you drop sphere. Otherwise, you blank their countermagic and since they cheat on U counts, can often stick a LoA/Coralhelm in Hand
Storm: Obviously Nuts.
Vengevine: Forces them to get to at least 6 mana before they can recur vines, which is more than enough time to at least try fighting back with your dudes.
Control decks: Because they aqll cheat on land counts, trinisphere can keep them from brainstorming
Dredge: effectively forces them to slow-dredge, buying you time.

Dark Horizons is about the only deck that trini is bad against, and so in that MU you have Moons.

[Masamune]

It seems that guy was angry LOL
I agree Ozymandias... I'll play with that list I shared here in weekend and I'll report when I can

[Tivon]

snip]

I'm not 100% sure on where to begin exactly, because apparantly a meandering discourse from multiple individuals isn't exactly what you were looking for, so I will try to Structure it as best as I can.

The Value of Trinisphere: (I am aware you will know this for the most part, but I feel a more structured analysis of the card will hopefully provide greater insight as to why it is that the rest of us so heavily support it)

Trinisphere is a valuable card for many reasons in Dragon stompy. The synergy it provides relative to the cmc of the rest of the deck allows for it to be virtually one sided. This is largely the same reason that we run chalice. Legacy is also a format of undercosted overpowered cards - in short, the best spells that cost between zero and three mana.

Because all of our opponents are generally going to be running cards that cost less than three mana, with trinisphere in play, we generate tempo by nature of slowing down our opponents tempo and not being affected by the effect of trinisphere. It is also important to note that Trinisphere affects all cards with a cmc < 3. The proposed alternative (thorn) also affects most spells, however, it doesn't affect creatures (which are often < 3) makes our own non creature spells cost more, and can allow for an opponent to have a relatively faster start than would a thorn. With trinisphere down, assuming a relatively standard list, there are about 8 cards, maybe 10 which will be affected mainboard (chrome mox, chalice, and possibly jitte). Thorn however, affects almost double the amount of our own spells (in your deck). It has less synergy with our deck, and does marginally less damage to our opponents deck.

Yes, there are going to be matches where Trinisphere will not be as strong. These matches however, are also typically matches where side board cards truly shine. It makes figuring out which cards to side out that much easier. Depending on play vs draw, and a variety of other factors, I have often found myself only having trinisphere sided out for one game in most matches - if I do so at all.

On Manabase:
Landing two and three drop threats early and regularly is one of the Core features of the deck. These threats can be prison components and creatures - but they both typically cost three or more (two for the much loved chalice @ 1 on turn 1). In order to facilitate this, itis extremely important to maximize the likliehood of a 2 mana land in the opening hand. I can't remember where I read it (I think it was a dredge thread or something) and ideally we would have 13 or something like that, but Crystal Vein sucks, so we are stuck with a maximum of 8 two mana lands. They are integral to the strategy of the deck - regardless of being consistent or hellbent in approach - so running less will always be less than ideal. I know that you try to adress this with help from lotus petal, I just am not sold on the viability of lotus petal in this deck.

Pyrokinesis in the Main:
I know you aren't running much other removal, but I honestly feel that this is much better as a sideboard card. I Have run 4 in my sideboard for as long as I can remember, and fully appreciate the strength of the card in certain matchups, however I feel that there are stronger mainboard cards which can be played.

On equipment:

Every once in a while a creature will get plowed in response to equip - but not always. Sometimes they are cut off from their removal color by moon, sometimes they are cut off from their removal by chalice or trini. The equipment does however make your little 2/2 beatsticks turn into a respectable clock or evasive beater. The three main options are basically Jitte, SoFaI, SoLaS. There are inherent strengths and weaknesses in each, which I'm sure most of us are aware of. I personally run Jitte now, despite the conflict with chalice at 2 and legendary status as It has only come up for me twice in games. If I were to run something else it would probably be SoLaS - due to pro white and not getting the extra draw effect. I have had numerous occasions where drawing a card and loosing hellbent would loose me the game - wheras optionally returning a creature or just accumulating counters a la jitte does not. I personally run between 21 and 23 creatures - and almost always have a creature to equip it to. In your build you could easily support equipment - and I personally believe you should if you choose to continue with your current pursuit.

On Seething Song:
Explosive, allows broken plays. Also, not always a bad topdeck. It is almost always at least castable, and can be insanly broken when cast with a hellbent rakdos active. I personally feel that this card is necessary - a necessary evil even - but can understand that it is a personal preference. I just feel that the times where it provides the broken starts and broken midgame plays weigh more heavily that the times where it is a bad topdeck.

Arc-Slogger:

Beatstick, removal, huge ass, huge casting cost. I personally feel that Slogger is awesome. I run him, but I hate him at the same time. I have lost a few games to one of these guys getting stuck in my hand, I've won a few by landing them first turn, or landing multiples. Despite the power of 4, he is an exceptional clock. If your opponent is getting down too many creatures, yeah, you should shock them. If your opponent has a problem creature, you should shock it. But if you have the ability to end the game by shocking your opponent its usually the right play. More often than not your opponent will either chump block or take the damage. There are also plenty of ways to cast it. I usually get up to around 5 mana in a game before its over. I also usually see a chrome mox or a gathan raiders. Early game, he usually sees the pitch if I have lots of hellbent in hand. Otherwise I usually hold onto him knowing he can end the game quickly once he lands. It should also be noted that I don't run all 4. I love seeing him once, but not in multiples.

I didn't really get to everything I wanted to get to or get a chance to go in depth as I really would have liked, but I do have some finals to study for - so I must depart for a little bit.

I think I understand your arguments for the most part, and I've considered some of the ideas before. However testing indicated that many of the choices which you have proposed proved to be suboptimal.

/rambling

[mercs]

Can u report here after handle with multiple meta?

I'm liking this idea the most out of the last 5 dozen posts lol :P

How about we tone the discussions down a bit and start t8ing some more! I've only been active in magic for 4 months this year (early in the year and recently), but I was still able to hit a 1st and 3rd place in big tournaments, so don't be afraid to pull the trigger and bust out those stompy decks guys.

In the end, it doesn't matter too much whether you believe the hellbent version or the consistency version is better or not. Let's have our results start doing the talking. Even though I'm loving how active this strand is recently, I noticed in the UW tempo strand, the get a lot of reports brought in, and that deck exploded into a huge contender. If we keep doing t8's, maybe DS can start gaining steam and making noise.

[jin]

I'm not 100% sure on where to begin exactly, because apparantly a meandering discourse from multiple individuals isn't exactly what you were looking for, so I will try to Structure it as best as I can.

The Value of Trinisphere: (I am aware you will know this for the most part, but I feel a more structured analysis of the card will hopefully provide greater insight as to why it is that the rest of us so heavily support it)

Trinisphere is a valuable card for many reasons in Dragon stompy. The synergy it provides relative to the cmc of the rest of the deck allows for it to be virtually one sided. This is largely the same reason that we run chalice. Legacy is also a format of undercosted overpowered cards - in short, the best spells that cost between zero and three mana.

Because all of our opponents are generally going to be running cards that cost less than three mana, with trinisphere in play, we generate tempo by nature of slowing down our opponents tempo and not being affected by the effect of trinisphere. It is also important to note that Trinisphere affects all cards with a cmc < 3. The proposed alternative (thorn) also affects most spells, however, it doesn't affect creatures (which are often < 3) makes our own non creature spells cost more, and can allow for an opponent to have a relatively faster start than would a thorn. With trinisphere down, assuming a relatively standard list, there are about 8 cards, maybe 10 which will be affected mainboard (chrome mox, chalice, and possibly jitte). Thorn however, affects almost double the amount of our own spells (in your deck). It has less synergy with our deck, and does marginally less damage to our opponents deck.

Yes, there are going to be matches where Trinisphere will not be as strong. These matches however, are also typically matches where side board cards truly shine. It makes figuring out which cards to side out that much easier. Depending on play vs draw, and a variety of other factors, I have often found myself only having trinisphere sided out for one game in most matches - if I do so at all.

On Manabase:
Landing two and three drop threats early and regularly is one of the Core features of the deck. These threats can be prison components and creatures - but they both typically cost three or more (two for the much loved chalice @ 1 on turn 1). In order to facilitate this, itis extremely important to maximize the likliehood of a 2 mana land in the opening hand. I can't remember where I read it (I think it was a dredge thread or something) and ideally we would have 13 or something like that, but Crystal Vein sucks, so we are stuck with a maximum of 8 two mana lands. They are integral to the strategy of the deck - regardless of being consistent or hellbent in approach - so running less will always be less than ideal. I know that you try to adress this with help from lotus petal, I just am not sold on the viability of lotus petal in this deck.

Pyrokinesis in the Main:
I know you aren't running much other removal, but I honestly feel that this is much better as a sideboard card. I Have run 4 in my sideboard for as long as I can remember, and fully appreciate the strength of the card in certain matchups, however I feel that there are stronger mainboard cards which can be played.

On equipment:

Every once in a while a creature will get plowed in response to equip - but not always. Sometimes they are cut off from their removal color by moon, sometimes they are cut off from their removal by chalice or trini. The equipment does however make your little 2/2 beatsticks turn into a respectable clock or evasive beater. The three main options are basically Jitte, SoFaI, SoLaS. There are inherent strengths and weaknesses in each, which I'm sure most of us are aware of. I personally run Jitte now, despite the conflict with chalice at 2 and legendary status as It has only come up for me twice in games. If I were to run something else it would probably be SoLaS - due to pro white and not getting the extra draw effect. I have had numerous occasions where drawing a card and loosing hellbent would loose me the game - wheras optionally returning a creature or just accumulating counters a la jitte does not. I personally run between 21 and 23 creatures - and almost always have a creature to equip it to. In your build you could easily support equipment - and I personally believe you should if you choose to continue with your current pursuit.

On Seething Song:
Explosive, allows broken plays. Also, not always a bad topdeck. It is almost always at least castable, and can be insanly broken when cast with a hellbent rakdos active. I personally feel that this card is necessary - a necessary evil even - but can understand that it is a personal preference. I just feel that the times where it provides the broken starts and broken midgame plays weigh more heavily that the times where it is a bad topdeck.

Arc-Slogger:

Beatstick, removal, huge ass, huge casting cost. I personally feel that Slogger is awesome. I run him, but I hate him at the same time. I have lost a few games to one of these guys getting stuck in my hand, I've won a few by landing them first turn, or landing multiples. Despite the power of 4, he is an exceptional clock. If your opponent is getting down too many creatures, yeah, you should shock them. If your opponent has a problem creature, you should shock it. But if you have the ability to end the game by shocking your opponent its usually the right play. More often than not your opponent will either chump block or take the damage. There are also plenty of ways to cast it. I usually get up to around 5 mana in a game before its over. I also usually see a chrome mox or a gathan raiders. Early game, he usually sees the pitch if I have lots of hellbent in hand. Otherwise I usually hold onto him knowing he can end the game quickly once he lands. It should also be noted that I don't run all 4. I love seeing him once, but not in multiples.

I didn't really get to everything I wanted to get to or get a chance to go in depth as I really would have liked, but I do have some finals to study for - so I must depart for a little bit.

I think I understand your arguments for the most part, and I've considered some of the ideas before. However testing indicated that many of the choices which you have proposed proved to be suboptimal.

/rambling

Again, I felt it was polite to reply.

Thank you, some valid arguments. Well, no, Mercs has given me perspective on the subcategorization of Dragon as well as some good anti-Vengevine plans. 0dysseus raised some good questions about Dragon Stompy and you presented some pretty strong arguments about Equipment, Arc-Slogger and Seething Song. Although I don't agree that the build I went for is sub-optimal, I will concede that equipments have their strengths in a build that has this many creatures. I would love to see your list. I'm curious to see how you fit 20 something creatures, acceleration, lock pieces and removal into one deck.

Don't you find that you sideboard in your Pyrokinesis a lot? Maybe your equipment can handle it.

[Tivon]

My current list (if I can recall what I currently have sleeved up) is as follows

10 mountain
4 ancient tomb
4 city of traitors
4 chrome mox
4 seething song
4 simian spirit guide
4 magus of the moon
4 rakdos pit dragon
4 gathan raiders
3 Taurean Mauler
2 Arc Slogger
1 Akroma, angel of Fury (either going to be slogger #3 or Mauler #4 or possibly Kargan dragonlord with a few other changes to get at least 2)
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Blood Moon
3 Trinisphere
2 Umezawa's

SB
4 Tormods Crypt
4 Pyrokinesis
3 Pithing Needle
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 shattering spree

the last seven slots are essentially meta slots for me and change depending on what I'm expecting to see in the meta. I've also run boil, anarchy, additional gravehate, pyroblast, flametongue kavu, and Bloodmoon and trinisphere #4

I predominantly just side in pyrokinesis for tribal matchups though I sometimes side it in on a whim against other decks, though I have found recently that ratchet bomb usually goes in for randoms more regularly.

Still trying to figure out what I want to do with that last creature slot (currently the Red Akroma)in the main... She's just not doing it for me anymore

[ForlornEgoist]

In my experience, equipment is actually a little more universal in use, and sometimes lets you offset the necessity for MD removal. I'm unfamiliar with Tivon's build, but mine looks like such:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Mountain

4 Chrome Mox
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
3 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Seething Song

3 Blood Moon

4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Gathan Raiders
2 Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs
2 Arc Slogger

I've tested the other 3 equipment pieces, and overall felt like they provided little benefit to the deck.

Sword of Light and Shadow - The Pro-White is most definitely useful in that it shields you from StP/PtE. Also, the life gain helps us offset damage from Tomb. The recursion ability, however, is negligble since our creatures are on average bigger than our opponents.

Sword of Fire and Ice - The static +2/+2 keeps you above burn, so Pro-Red is useless; Pro-Blue only shields you from Jace, which you should be ramming at as a first priority with your creatures. The shock effect is nice, but the card draw is counterintuitive to our 8 main beaters.

Sword of Body and Mind - The Pro-Green is useless as the biggest Goyf gets against us is 4/5. Pro-Blue, again, nice for Jace. The milling effect helps out Survival/Dredge/Aggro Loam/Land/Reanimator, so that ability actually hurts us. The 2/2 token is actually useful as a blocker, but this benefit is again made moot by the aforementioned ability.

Overall, the only Sword I ever actually used was the SoLS, the reason for which being it gave me Pro-White (which was useful at the time when Bant was rampant in my meta).

Jitte, however, does everything we need it to: offset damage from Tomb, remove minor threats, and as a bonus it even provides us with pumps to escape burn range or deal extra damage. While the Swords are nice for their Static buff (which I especially appreciated on RPD), 1 ability on SoLS is unnecessary, and 1 ability on both SoFI and SoBM can actually hurt us.

Forlorn Egoist

[jin]

My current list (if I can recall what I currently have sleeved up) is as follows

10 mountain
4 ancient tomb
4 city of traitors
4 chrome mox
4 seething song
4 simian spirit guide
4 magus of the moon
4 rakdos pit dragon
4 gathan raiders
3 Taurean Mauler
2 Arc Slogger
1 Akroma, angel of Fury (either going to be slogger #3 or Mauler #4 or possibly Kargan dragonlord with a few other changes to get at least 2)
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Blood Moon
3 Trinisphere
2 Umezawa's

SB
4 Tormods Crypt
4 Pyrokinesis
3 Pithing Needle
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 shattering spree

the last seven slots are essentially meta slots for me and change depending on what I'm expecting to see in the meta. I've also run boil, anarchy, additional gravehate, pyroblast, flametongue kavu, and Bloodmoon and trinisphere #4

I predominantly just side in pyrokinesis for tribal matchups though I sometimes side it in on a whim against other decks, though I have found recently that ratchet bomb usually goes in for randoms more regularly.

Still trying to figure out what I want to do with that last creature slot (currently the Red Akroma)in the main... She's just not doing it for me anymore

LOL, your list looks exactly the same as my list from when I was playing the more explosive list. I loved morphing in Akroma and swinging. With my teammates, we have a joke where I shout out "it's morphing time" (an allusion to the Power Rangers). It took a lot of will power for me to cut her since she made morphing more interesting instead of... "oh another Gathan Raider..." In my sideboard, I also ran Trinisphere #4 and Akroma #2 for the combo and Landstill match ups respectively. Ratchet Bomb is good but it's not red which I find is necessary sometimes to pitch to Chrome Mox.

[sancho]

Hi everybody

I'm a first time poster here but I've been following the thread for a while and playing Dragon Stompy for a bit over a year. I'm by no means an expert and I've mostly played a fairly stock standard list. I've been tinkering for the last few weeks with some fairly drastic changes to the build. I'm completely unconvinced that the deck is actually any good, but I'm seeing a few positives. Maybe some of you will see something you like and be able to work with it and improve it.

My current build:

4 Goblin Welder
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Razormane Masticore
2 Steel Hellkite

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
3 Ratchet Bomb
4 Lotus Petal
4 Grim Monolith

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Great Furnace
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Badlands
1 Mountain

Sideboard:
1 Swamp
4 Engineered Plague
3 Perish
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pithing Needle

So.. some of my thought process for the changes (if you are still bothering to read at this stage after seeing the list!)

The addition of Welder is the biggest change and obviously influenced a lot of the rest of the deck. I decided to add him to provide a bit of extra gas against control decks, which I found were just dominating me if they could deal with my initial onslaught of threats. It obviously doesn't play nice with Chalice at 1, but it is fairly easy to get into play and get active. It dies to every single piece of removal that is pointed at it, but that means the removal is not used on a Magus or a Golem or a Razormane.

The Lodestone Golem and Razormane Masticore and in there over Rakdos Pit Dragon and Arc-Slogger for a couple reasons - because they are much easier on the mana and because they are recurrable by Welder. The Masticore is a beast in aggro matchups obviously and I'm not missing Arc-Slogger at all. The Golem is a nice extra piece of disruption and a solid beatstick. Not as explosive as the Dragon though obviously. The nice thing about cutting the Dragon is that Hellbent isn't really much of a concern. It's obviously a bonus to have it for Gathan Raiders, but not a must.

The Hellkites are probably just a bit too cute. I have not cast them too often, and in fact they've usually come into play via Welder after being discarded to Raiders or Masticore.

The Ratchet Bombs are very solid against tribal and zoo, and a nice catch-all. Blood Moons could be squeezed in here instead I guess. Having only the 4 Magus is probably not ideal.

I quite like the addition of black. It offers some amazing options from the sideboard and hasn't seemed to jank up the mana too bad. Lotus Petal over SSG was a nice way to make the black mana more reliable. One nice thing about the reduction in red mana costs was the ability to add Grim Monolith in the place of Seething Song (I have always hated this card!). It's nice Welder fodder too :)

So anyway, that's my pet project for the moment. Feel free to tell me I'm an idiot!

[ForlornEgoist]

There are plenty of things to comment on, but my main issue is the black splash on the SB.

DS has an incredibly fragil manabase. The general accepted manabase is:


4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10-11 Mountain

The reason Saito was able to splash black is because Merfolk is a little bit more forgiving with their manabases:


4 Wasteland
4 Mutavault
12 Islands

With their manabase, they can add 6 fetches, 4 on-color Duals, and still have basics to shield them from nobasic hate. We, however, don't have that luxury.

If you want to be able to splash a color, here is what you'd have to do:


4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
6-8 Fetches
3-4 Badlands
1-2 basics

The problem with either this land set-up or yours is that you leave yourself open heavily to not only your opponents hate, but your own Moon effects which are a huge power portion of the deck. The Great Furnaces are useful to your Artifact-centered build, but the Moon effects are anti-synergetic to your deck, so you would need to remove them thus eliminating one of the key strengths of Dragon Stompy.

I also question the E. Plague. Why?

E. Plague is essentially dead in the current meta.

Elves--> No-one plays Elves, but there are 3 main builds of elves: Aggro, NO, and Combo. We're already bigger than all of the creatures in the aggro-build, and our 12+ lock pieces shut off the combo build, so NO is our only problem which we can't deal with even post-board.

Slivers--> Has lost much favor and is rarely seen anymore. However, Slivers (Meathook variant) runs countermagic, multiple Sliver Lords, and when all else fails, Harmonic Sliver which by many Sliver players including myself has become pretty much a 2-3 MD slot.

Merfolks--> They run at a bare minimum 12 lords. 1-2 E. Plagues only stalls them. It won't shut them down, or even kill any of their creatures.

Goblins--> The only deck E. Plague actually works on as they typically only run 1 lord, with a few more builds starting to run 2.

Zoo--> Why would you side in E. Plague against Zoo? They have burn, KotR, Goyf, Finx, etc. You have bigger problems than Pridemage/Nacatl.

Misc. Jank (Zomb/Birds/Soldiers/etc.)--> The other tribes really only have 1 lord, and while Zombies has at least 4, no-one plays it because they have no card advantage and their protection (kill spells/hand disruption) pales in comparison to countermagic.

Survival--> Repeat argument from Zoo, altering card names.

Thopter--> Yes, you can name Thopters. However, you can also just as easily solve the problem with a more universal answer to most decks like GY hate.


I could go on and on, but overall E. Plague is a subpar choice for the deck. You're better of with burn or mass-removal. Here are some suggestions:


Pyrokinesis
Flametongue Kavu
Pyroclasm
Firespout
Volcanic Fallout
Powder Keg
Ratchet Bomb

All of these deal with the real problem this deck has, which is being swarmed by a bunch of little guys. More importantly, they also don't require you to splash a color, and thereby weaking your deck for a static ability that in the long run does nothing.


Also, the Steel Hellkite is nice since you can Weld him into play, but it seems to me that in the event you don't have Welder it's doubtful you can cast him. Perhaps consider Covetous Dragon as he replaces RPD nicely in your deck and he's a big beater.

Forlorn Egoist

[Masamune]

...
Looks like a "welderRedStacker" than a CDS...
I see your point but what you can do IMO is screw the opp using Welder... personally, I prefer avoid it because CoTV and Trini screw us
About S. Hellkite: make a test with WurmCoil Engine. Welder can produce token with it and lifelink is good, avoiding a quick death.
I still prefer my current list but your list as well as jin's list must to be tested and compare all results

[Masamune]

Some questions to someone who understands the subject:
1) If I play any Moon effect against DarkDephts deck, when the land comes into play,the ten ice counters comes too or not? If not, for exemple: I have in table Magus of the Moon. Opp plays DD land and kill my creature with any removal like Innocent Blood. Marit Lage comes out? O.o"
2) What happens when I control a Trinisphere and my opp want to pay alternative manacost like flashback? Against dredge decks opp must to pay 3 mana to resolve simple flashback spell like Dredge Return?

[ForlornEgoist]

1) If I play any Moon effect against DarkDephts deck, when the land comes into play,the ten ice counters comes too or not? If not, for exemple: I have in table Magus of the Moon. Opp plays DD land and kill my creature with any removal like Innocent Blood. Marit Lage comes out? O.o"
In regards to lands and Moon effects, all CIP abilities still trigger. So, Dark Depths CIP with 10 ice counters on it. Moon effect then changes it to a nonbasic, however the 10 ice counters remain on the card. So if they kill your Moon effect they still have to remove the counters to get Marit Lage.



2) What happens when I control a Trinisphere and my opp want to pay alternative manacost like flashback? Against dredge decks opp must to pay 3 mana to resolve simple flashback spell like Dredge Return?
Trinisphere is the last card that get's checked for casting costs, alternative or not. So in regards to Dread Return, after all other cards have been checked to see how they affect the flashback cost, then Trinisphere checks to see if the card's casting cost is under 3 mana. So yes, 3sphere would make DR cost 3 in addition to the sacrifice cost.

That's part of the reason why 3Sphere is such an annoying card for decks packing counters because we now make them pay 1 extra for that Daze and they have to choose between either hardcasting a Force of Will or paying 3 and pitching a card.

Forlorn Egoist

[Masamune]

1) I read yesterday in the rules of mws...(actually I do not really remember it well for sure): "changing types and subtypes affect all abilities saying when comes into play"... by the way I believe in you
2) Ok, understood...so...if opp have lands like Tendo Ice Bridge with counters or other stuff like Fungal Reaches when Moons comes turning into mountains, the counters still stay there right?

[AlterEgo]

1) I read yesterday in the rules of mws...(actually I do not really remember it well for sure): "changing types and subtypes affect all abilities saying when comes into play"... by the way I believe in you
2) Ok, understood...so...if opp have lands like Tendo Ice Bridge with counters or other stuff like Fungal Reaches when Moons comes turning into mountains, the counters still stay there right?

1) Giving a basic landtype to a land clears all of that lands abilities, unless it is given the type "in addition to its other types" (like Urborg ToY does). Moons sort of "overwrite" the lands' textboxes with "T: Add R".

2) Right. The Bridge will even enter the battlefield WITH the counter, if Moon is already in effect. This is because it has a replacement effect, that changes how it enters - those effects are applied directly before the modified event actually happens. In that moment Blood Moon doesn't influence it yet, because it's still in your hand (or wherever).

[Masamune]

Is it a problem Dark Dephts deck?? :(
Some someone here have tested against it?

[Masamune]

Is it a problem Dark Dephts deck?? :(
Someone here have tested against it?

[ForlornEgoist]

The way I see it is that Dark Depths is kind of like the Painter-Grindstone combo where yeah, it can win the game out of nowhere in the most annoying way, but it's also something that you don't really want to build a deck around. It's more of an extra win-con that only requires 4 spots, and that the deck has other ways of winning without it.

The problem with building a deck focused on DD is that you need to rely on black or splash an extra color to be able to tutor up the 2 pieces needed for it. By the time you manage to get the pieces for it together an aggro player will of utterly murdered you or a control player will have sufficient counters to deny you the Hexmage. Sure you can run protection via Thoughtseize or creature hate, but ultimately if you focus your deck on 1 card and it gets shut off somehow, then you're up the creek without a paddle. Heck, they don't even have to stop the Hexmage. If they have a Wasteland on field, all they have to do is blow up the DD while Hexmage's ability is on the stack.

Overall, our deck does fine against decks using DD.

While 4 of the 8 Moon effects are subject to creature hate, if you stick a Blood Moon its pretty much GG since black has no means to remove it. Chalice @ 2 shuts off Hexmage, and most players tend to make the mistake of dropping their Hexmage on the field before having DD, so just side in creature hate to remove them. The most likely color you'll see splashed is Green for Goyf/KGrip/Living Wish, so overall DS shouldn't have too many problems with a DD deck.

Forlorn Egost

[Zork]

Another card to watch for in the B/G versions is Pernicious Deed. I usually also board in Pithing Needle against DD since it hits Hexmage or, if Hexmage is handled by Chalice/Moon, Deed. Some version MD it, and those tend to be worse match ups.

[lotriderm]

Against the goblin matchup, is it incorrect to side out Chalice when I'm on the play, game 2 or 3? My strategy was to side out Chalice and replace them with Pithing Needle because it works against Vial and Gempalm Incinerator. I'm typically bringing in:
+ 3x Pyrokinesis
+ 3x Pithing Needle
+ 2x Pyroclasm
+ 2x Umezawa's Jitte (1 in the main)

- 4x Chalice of the Void
- 4x Seething Song
- 1x Blood Moon
- either another Blood Moon or a flex slot I'm testing (Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs right now)

[GoboLord]

Hey guys,

first of all: I'm totally new to Dragon Stompy. I've never played it on a tourney before - so far my experience with this deck is limited to a very good deckprimer by Necro Yawgmoth and some playtesting on Magic Work Station.

I came to play this deck because our local meta seems very colorful to me and is heavily shattered by manadenial. I was following this strategy with my Goblin deck, but Dragon Stompy obviously is better in screwing my opponents.

Therefore my list is very focused on the screw-plan. I just want to hear your oppinion on that:

//Mana [30]
10 Mountain
8 Ancient Tomb / City of Traitors
4 SSG
4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song

//Screw [16]
8 Moon-Effects
4 Chalice
4 Trinisphere

//Win Condition [14]
4 Kargan Dragon Lord
3 Lord of Shatterskul Path
4 Flametounge Kavu
3 Koth of the Hammer

//Sideboard [15]
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Boil
3 Anarchy
3 Firespout
3 Spinal Villain

[Yuri8]

Has anybody tried Aether flash aganist goblins and merfolks(ichorid, elves...)? Seems like good way to deal with them, even if you play in 3 turn they could have only 2-3 cretures which shouldnt be problem...

[Masamune]

I'll try to describe my experience of yesterday. A little tornament with just 18 people.
Despite not having won the tournament, I really enjoyed playing with the DS.
My list:

Mainboard:
Creatures (20):
2 Arc-Slogger
2 Kazuul
2 Lord of Shatterskull Pass
4 Magus of the Moon
2 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Simian Spirit Guide

Others (22):
4 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song
4 Trinisphere
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Lands (18):
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Mountain

SB:

4 Kinesis
4 Bombs
2 Tormods
3 Pithing
2 Anarch


DS vs U/B/W Merfolk
1) My hand cames perfect. Ancient tomb, Mox, Song, Simian, Jitte, MoTM, Trini. I started playing Tomb, Mox, Song > Jitte + Magus. I took a chance on that move... I knew if I would did it my opp would not have any chance. Yeah, no FoW. Jitte killing all fishes and I did it.
2) -4 Blood Moon / -2 RPD / -2 Chalice / +4 Ratchet Bomb / +4 Kinesis. He started with Island and Vial. My hand was something like: Tomb / 2x SSG / Song / Slogger / Kinesis / Bomb. I play tomb+SSG > Song and Slogger. He dazed and I paid with another Guide. Turn 2 had the Bomb (which most of the time I got to use it :D). When I put in table a chalice 2, no way to lose. Yeah. :D

1x0

DS vs U/B Merfolk

1) Trinis turn 1. No counter. He plays island. Tunr 2 Lord S Pass. He saw it and tought WTF?! :S I didn't played in subsequent turns. He give up xD.
2) I boarded similar to previous game. This match was very lame because he was locked with my moon turn 2, Chalice 2 and I drewed land and more lands. A couple turns after came into play a Kazuul. And...surprise! My opp controlled two vials one with two and other with three counters. A fucking Gilded Drake taken my hornguy exchanging it. I sacrifice my Bomb with two counters (had 2 before chalice and vials...) to destroy a opp Jitte. I topdeck a Slogger. My opp puting fishes every turn with vial. I take my 20 top cards to assassinate my own hornguy and my opp with 8 life died! (Sigh)

2 x 0

DS vs U/G VengSurvival

1) He started with Noble. I just started with a single jitte. I didn't knew what deck my opp was playing so far... He put Survival in table. My Chalice that I drew screwed my up because it was too late. Next turn 4x Vengevines and Basking + Noble. 16 damage. I lose. :\
2) I didn't remember what I did actully. I just thinked: "Oh hell what I gonna do?". I didn't expected see Survival in this meta... was a surprise. I started with Chalice 1 turn 1 and a Chalice 2 turn 2. But isn't enough. He played a Vengevine alone. -4 damage every tunr. No way... Survival screw me a lot. Thnk you very much Wizards. Ban Survival help me to play with DS much more. I'll not see that kind of thing to early in future in my next meta hehehehe.

2 x 1

DS vs MonoBlack

1) Thoughtseize take my Chalice. Turn 1 mountain. Opp Confidant. T2 Simian paying it mana cost being a 2/2 creature. Opp dark ritual and played Abyssal Persecutor. I played Lord Of Shatterskull Pass and was here I made a huge mistake. My opp controlled two Confidants making himself die soon taking damage all upkeep. And me with -13 life and I attacked with my Lord with six+ counters. Stupid move I know... living and learning :(
2) Another mistake was board too much Bombs and take off my strong creatures. I thought that would be a good way to handle with odd list... exchanging my moon effects. My opp made similar moves playing Confidants, Bloodgasts and Persecutor. But a diabolic edict finish me when Pesecutor chushed me before ;(

2 x 2

DS vs ProBant

1) Moon effects didn't stop him too much turn 1 because he was playing with too many basics. However, delay the opp with it plus Chalice togheter still was a good one. By the way a War Monk cames making me crazy. All creatures wich everytime was died to plowshares or another stiff like countermagic, opp opened the necessary way to deal damage with WM. I lose :\
2) Opp top deck several turns after when Moon effects was affecting all nonbasics controlled by him. He drew a Krosan Grip destroying my Blood Moon and after Natural Order + Dryad Land. Progenitus kill me two times after. This bad match would be better if I have being boarded properly.

2 x 3

I was too tired and decided to go to the pool for a swim...
We were in a recreation center

Some subjects to share to everyone:
1) Ratchet bomb is very very nice. But be careful when we board it exchanging main cards forgetting all deck purpose.
2) Trinisphere is awesome aways. I wanna run 4 every time I can run it.
3) I would run 4 RPD instead 2, but I remember last meta and I never like draw it when I'm losing. I prefer run more horned guys to handle with goyf decks. Yep it's my way.
4) I thought Arc-Slogger was useless. No! It's not! Nice finisher, good remoal ability and is a 4/5 creature.
5) Regardless of the results (maybe 11th or something else), I wanna play with it a lot more. I loved DS :D
6) Finally we can wait a little longer. Survival decks will succumb ;]

~Masamune

[Masamune]

Has anybody tried Aether flash aganist goblins and merfolks(ichorid, elves...)? Seems like good way to deal with them, even if you play in 3 turn they could have only 2-3 cretures which shouldnt be problem...

IMO it can kill our own creatures like anmorph Riders and Magus of The Moon...
IMO Fallout is better... also Aether Flash later isn't good.


Gogolord: Make difference when you build your list based in meta.... and remeber: suvival decks is not a problem anymore :P

[GoboLord]

and remeber: suvival decks is not a problem anymore :P

Why that?

[NecroYawgmoth]

AEther Flash is already an old tech, that Taco tested in the past, afaik...
I also tested it, in the past, and didn't like it... also, It's not good against skilled Merfolk players.

@ Gobo-Lord: Thank you for the complement on the primer ;) Don't play more than 2 Kargans... the RR is more problematic than you may think, and you want to do COTV2 sometimes... You can play 2 Slogger, or Mauler, or maybe Jitte [still ccc2 here]

@ Masamune: You got secret informations on a Survival-banning??? =P

[ScatmanX]

//Sideboard [15]
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Boil
3 Anarchy
3 Firespout
3 Spinal Villain
Isn't this a little to anti-blue heavy?

[NecroYawgmoth]

Isn't this a little to anti-blue heavy?

4 Boil
4 Boiling Seas
4 Spinal Villain
3 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage

EAT THAT, MERFOLK!

But yes, imo that's also a little bit too much anti-U, but he wants to use the Boils as an other "screw-engine" afaik

[GoboLord]

@ Necro: Yeah, your words on the last tourney made me afraid of Merfolk :-D Maybe that's a bit too much.
btw. What are possible cards to board out?

@ Masamune: Only Scatman has the official right to call me GogoLord :-D

[NecroYawgmoth]

Normally the worst screw-piece =P, but remember that Folks board Blasts, while you usually board Chalice out...

btw, where are the 4 P. Needles in your board?

[GoboLord]

WHy Needles?

[NecroYawgmoth]

Okay, for the 500th time?

Run Four Pithing Needle.

Seriously. I would run about nine in board if it were legal to do so. Needle wins you so many matches and it's still good against mono-anything control. You have absolutely no way in this deck to deal with artifacts, enchantments, and certain other activated abilities that just wreck you. Needle wins.


=P


Needle is good against Planeswalkers, Survivals, Equipments, CoP:R and all kind of stuff that wrecks us like hell [I am looking at you Pernicious Deed], or is just annoying... also, it's nearly never a dead card and will always find worthy targets. Also, we are red, that means: it's our only out against Enchantments [besides newcomer Ratchet Bomb].

[GoboLord]

Well... I won't question something written in this size :-D

I guess you guys know what you are talking about. I'll run 4 in my SB

After some advice/playtesting/configuration my list looks like this:

//Mana [30]
10 Mountain
8 Ancient Tomb / City of Traitors
4 SSG
4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song

//Screw [16]
8 Moon-Effects
4 Chalice
4 Trinisphere

//Win Condition [14]
2 Kargan Dragon Lord
4 Lord of Shatterskull Path
3 Flametounge Kavu
3 Koth of the Hammer
2 Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs

//Sideboard [15]
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Anarchy
4 Firespout
4 Pithing Needle

[Zork]

AEther Flash is already an old tech, that Taco tested in the past, afaik...
I also tested it, in the past, and didn't like it... also, It's not good against skilled Merfolk players.

@ Gobo-Lord: Thank you for the complement on the primer ;) Don't play more than 2 Kargans... the RR is more problematic than you may think, and you want to do COTV2 sometimes... You can play 2 Slogger, or Mauler, or maybe Jitte [still ccc2 here]

@ Masamune: You got secret informations on a Survival-banning??? =P

Actaully, I took Aether Flash to one of the Rochester, NY tourneys as anti-goblin/Ichorid hate two years ago. It was fantastic at stalling, but it killed too many of your own guys to allow to continue to be an aggro deck. With a modified creature base it would, however, be fantastic.

[Ozymandias]

No rakdos pit dragon wryyyyyyy.

Also, I went 4-2 with Dragon Stompy yesterday at my local event, beating ANT, Dark Horizons, Counterbalance, and Burn, and losing to ANT and Vial Knights. Deck performed alright, probably misplayed my way out of the tourney.

[Tivon]

Pithing needle is a card that I avoided running for a long time. However, due to the increased use of cards like JTMS and survival in the meta, it has become increasingly powerful as an option, especially as it also hits a lot of other cards that are in problem matchups for us (deed, vial, etc)

I also am of an opinion that not running the hellbent creatures is a huge mistake. RPD allows you to race just about anything as long as you get a chance to swing with an empty hand, and gathan raiders helps to enable that. For me these are usually the two most consistent beaters, and I rarely have a problem being able to play them.

I tested FTK for quite a while, as I really wanted it to work so I could hit mana dorks or problem creatures, but I found myself too often forced to hold it back due to my opponent not having a creature or some other such situation. At best I find it to be a sideboard card, and the situations where you can't get it out of your hand because there is nothing you can do with it (other than have it kill itself) as opposed to not being able to cast it just feels maddening and caused me to not like it in this deck. The only condition that should determine if I can cast a creature or not is "do I have enough mana," not "am I going to have to kill one of my own creatures to get this thing out of my hand." Could just be personal preference, but I feel that especially with the mana acceleration that you have between Koth and song, RPD will serve you better here. It's a faster clock, and has evasion if you need it.

ON the firespouts, I personally would not run them. They hit many of your creatures, and at sorcery speed slow you down tempo wise. Pyrokinesis has been outstanding for me for over a year. It's free, only costing you a red card, and is instant speed. Sure, it usually isn't going to kill as much, but in the matchups where you usually want it, in combination with needles on relevent cards, its game stealing.

My proposed changes are:
-3 FTK
-1 something (probably a trini or a moon)

+4 Rakdos Pit Dragon

SB
-4 firespout
+4 Pyrokinesis

I know you're playing something a list that is a bit more defensive oriented, but RPD is going to be a stronger play than FTK 95% of the time in my experience.

[Masamune]

No rakdos pit dragon wryyyyyyy.

Also, I went 4-2 with Dragon Stompy yesterday at my local event, beating ANT, Dark Horizons, Counterbalance, and Burn, and losing to ANT and Vial Knights. Deck performed alright, probably misplayed my way out of the tourney.

Your current list is very nice, with a good consistency and I would play with it someday, but I explained before why I didn't went with my flamethrower guys. I like to draw later Lords and Kazuuls than RPD's.


@ Masamune: Only Scatman has the official right to call me GogoLord :-D
Sorry, missclick :D


@ Masamune: You got secret informations on a Survival-banning??? =P
Yeah... all Magic players saw what's happened with meta... the fresh information is:
Survival will be banned soon \o/:cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool:

[ZeinVoncy]

Been following the thread for awhile, this deck looks under estimated, I see what you guys mean by taking ppl by surprise if no one prepares for this deck. Even though it took me awhile to understand the concept, I'm considering looking for cards to build this for laughs.
On the other hand, I'm a rock player who also dabbles w/ zoo, what kind of cards do you guys hate seeing against you? (Other then Pernicious Deed). Thanks!

[Masamune]

Been following the thread for awhile, this deck looks under estimated, I see what you guys mean by taking ppl by surprise if no one prepares for this deck. Even though it took me awhile to understand the concept, I'm considering looking for cards to build this for laughs.
On the other hand, I'm a rock player who also dabbles w/ zoo, what kind of cards do you guys hate seeing against you? (Other then Pernicious Deed). Thanks!

IMO Enchantress decks (Solitary Confinements and Sigils of E. T.) and monocolored basic decks like Goblins (Stingcourgers and faster Piledrivers), Fishes (Vials making merfolks kill us faster, flyer Coralhelms and many others...) and Discard decks (acellerator Confidants and discard stuffs like Duress and Seizes...)
Specifically isn't for sure only one card itself that screw us a lot but a entire deck actually

[NecroYawgmoth]

We don't like to see:

Enchantress
Faerie Stompy
Staxx

Cards like: Pernicious Deed, CoP:R, Chill, etc.
Cards that destroy Artifacts/Enchantments and any removal that sneaks through CotV.


and personally: Any card that is called Qasali Pridemage or a creature with the type Merfolk.

[Masamune]

...and personally: Any card that is called qasali pridemage or a creature with the type merfolk.

rofl

[Zork]

If I don't have pithing needle in hand or moon on the board (and even then it may not stop if they have mana dorks/basic forest): Survival of the Fittest

That match tends to be a blowout for one party every game.

Mono-white control is a terrible match-up.

[Masamune]

Mono-white control is a terrible match-up.

Just run Anarchy :D

[Zork]

Yeah, if you expect a ton of it. Anarchy is not that great against a diverse field, and I'd rather have cards like Pithing Needle, Ratchet Bomb, Pyrokinesis, the rest of trini/moons, etc.

Not to mention decks like Quinn run painter stone and other combo kills that laugh at Anarchy.

[Masamune]

Well...Anarchy destroy a fucking Progenitus lol

[Masamune]

Can someone tell me what happens when I control a Blood Moon or a Magus of the Moon and opp controls a Dryad Arbor ready for sacrifice to search Progenitus? Still remains a 1/1 mountain creature or not?

[NecroYawgmoth]

yep, it's still a 1/1 creature, but the opponent can't sac it because it isn't green anymore...

after all layers and stuff Dryad Arbor should look like this:

Dryad Arbor
Land: Mountain, Creature: Dryad
Tap: Add R to your mana pool.
1/1

[ForlornEgoist]

So, based on the posts listed above, here is what I have learned about this deck:

Question: So, what are bad cards/MU for this deck?
Answer: Anything that isn't 43.Lands.

How is the Lord of Shatterskull Pass working out for everyone else? I haven't playtested him at all, but he seems like he's a rather heavy investment early game, and only starts to see use if the game ends up stalling out. Has he been an effective beater? Have you noticed that the small initial investments are made moot by the shear power you get from him?

Lemme know.

Forlorn Egoist

[Sims]

So, based on the posts listed above, here is what I have learned about this deck:

Question: So, what are bad cards/MU for this deck?
Answer: Anything that isn't 43.Lands.


I wouldn't quite go that far. The deck definitely has some cards/decks it hates to see but it's really dependant upon draws/builds/players. I haven't had problems with Rock builds, for isntance, because running out a quick lock piece can screwthem hard. Sure, deed could be a problem, but how are they playing Deed through a turn 1-2 Blood Moon? Their Mox Diamonds don't do much against Trinisphere, etc. I understand that depending on the draw it can be hard matchup, but if you know they're on the rock, why are you keeping a disruption weak hand? Same with Zoo, you can easily beat their 1/1 and 2/2's once you drop a moon. Pyrokinesis or FTK from the board shine here, as naturally does the maindeck components of Chalice and Trinisphere. Pridemage is hard to cast in a deck where most people only run 1 of each basic (if that) and you're turning off their fetches on your first or second turn.

Survival requires your sideboard.. You need Needle and possibly ratchet bomb to beat it, but you still have a fighting shot depending on the version. I would think here that U/G and G/W/b ooze versions would be easier than G/W, but that's just based on my play experience.

The primary reason i put this deck down and picked my Merfolk deck back up was because my meta started learning that they lost to blood moon and either began playing more basics, or switching decks to mono/dual colored decks with high basic counts. Tribal decks are beatable but are a pain in the ass, and I've started seeing more of them lately. So as has been said before, when the meta becomes hostile and doesn't allow your primary lock components to function at their peak, pick up a different deck for a while.

[Masamune]

yep, it's still a 1/1 creature, but the opponent can't sac it because it isn't green anymore...

after all layers and stuff Dryad Arbor should look like this:

Dryad Arbor
Land: Mountain, Creature: Dryad
Tap: Add R to your mana pool.
1/1

Hm... if you see my tournament report posted before DS vs ProBant were a weird match and kill Dryad was a possibility with kinesis...I would stop Progenitus after but in that moment the judge said Dryad become a mountain and just a mountain :|

[Masamune]

I wouldn't quite go that far. The deck definitely has some cards/decks it hates to see but it's really dependant upon draws/builds/players. I haven't had problems with Rock builds, for isntance, because running out a quick lock piece can screwthem hard. Sure, deed could be a problem, but how are they playing Deed through a turn 1-2 Blood Moon? Their Mox Diamonds don't do much against Trinisphere, etc. I understand that depending on the draw it can be hard matchup, but if you know they're on the rock, why are you keeping a disruption weak hand? Same with Zoo, you can easily beat their 1/1 and 2/2's once you drop a moon. Pyrokinesis or FTK from the board shine here, as naturally does the maindeck components of Chalice and Trinisphere. Pridemage is hard to cast in a deck where most people only run 1 of each basic (if that) and you're turning off their fetches on your first or second turn.

Survival requires your sideboard.. You need Needle and possibly ratchet bomb to beat it, but you still have a fighting shot depending on the version. I would think here that U/G and G/W/b ooze versions would be easier than G/W, but that's just based on my play experience.

The primary reason i put this deck down and picked my Merfolk deck back up was because my meta started learning that they lost to blood moon and either began playing more basics, or switching decks to mono/dual colored decks with high basic counts. Tribal decks are beatable but are a pain in the ass, and I've started seeing more of them lately. So as has been said before, when the meta becomes hostile and doesn't allow your primary lock components to function at their peak, pick up a different deck for a while.

Survival will be banned.
Merfolks isn't a problem. Do not play Chalice 1 against then. Chalice 2 is VERY better + Slogger screw then a lot.
Ratchet Bomb is nice against Dredges and Enchantress above all.
My current SB:

2x Tormods
2x Anarchys
3x Needles
4x Bombs
4x Kinesis

Bombs + Tormods > Dredge decks
Bombs + Kinesis > aggro decks like Goblins
Bombs + Anarchys > enchantress and Taxes decks

I advocate the idea that we must always run Boms. Is very versatile in meta...thoughts?

[NecroYawgmoth]

meh...

tell me more about Bombs...

I never liked Kegs in the past, cuz they seem sooo slow, and I never knew what to put out. :confused:

I think they are necessary, but I can't really imagine how to play with them, and when to board them :frown:

Still, I think Ratchet does everything what Anarchy also does, so I think I'd run something like:

4 Pithing Needle
4 Ratchet Bomb
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Spinal Villain [Have I ever said, that I hate Merfolk ?]

[Sims]

Survival will be banned.
Merfolks isn't a problem. Do not play Chalice 1 against then. Chalice 2 is VERY better + Slogger screw then a lot.
Ratchet Bomb is nice against Dredges and Enchantress above all.
My current SB:

2x Tormods
2x Anarchys
3x Needles
4x Bombs
4x Kinesis

Bombs + Tormods > Dredge decks
Bombs + Kinesis > aggro decks like Goblins
Bombs + Anarchys > enchantress and Taxes decks

I advocate the idea that we must always run Boms. Is very versatile in meta...thoughts?

I agree with most of this, and I don't want to degenerate this thread into a survival thread, but we have no gaurantee that the card or part of that deck will be banned on the 20th. So being prepared for it and knowing how to beat it will still be important until we know that it is for sure not going to be a metagame factor. No one will no what is happening with that card until next Monday, so lets leave the "it will be/won't be banned" discussion to the dedicated survival threads and go about our business of preparing, testing, and knowing how to beat it in the event that it is not banned.

[Masamune]

meh...

tell me more about Bombs...

I never liked Kegs in the past, cuz they seem sooo slow, and I never knew what to put out. :confused:

I think they are necessary, but I can't really imagine how to play with them, and when to board them :frown:

Still, I think Ratchet does everything what Anarchy also does, so I think I'd run something like:

4 Pithing Needle
4 Ratchet Bomb
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Spinal Villain [Have I ever said, that I hate Merfolk ?]

Your SB running all removals with bomb without Kinesis? Think about it: Goblins will incommode much more than Merfolks. However Spinnal in current meta without Goblin decks will be the right way to beat fishes....
IMO is not necessary run 4 grave hates. Most annoying decks like Dredge sucks we can disrupt it easy with Trinisphere and Bombs
Maybe would be better with:

2 Pithing Needle (I preferer exchange in removal spells instead bacause Survival decks will bump off)
4 Ratchet Bomb (good against dredges and enchantress decks)
2 Tormod's Crypt (some reanimator)
3 Spinal Villain (yeah! eat all of then lol)

Bomb: I like it a lot. Running 4 we can play a single bomb with a Ancient tomb. Sometimes we can't play faster a Spinnal turn 1, but I can consider we must to test what we gonna do thinking also in the next edition Mirrodin Besiged

[NecroYawgmoth]

Well... with 4 FTK, 2 Slogger and 2-3 Jitte in the main I don't feel that I need Pyrokinesis in the board. I know that Pyrokinesis is DAMN good, but not better than P.Needle.

and ofc we can disrupt Dredge Players with Trinis and Bombs, but only if they are... well lets say "not skilled enough", because a good Dredge player can still operate under this circumstances. That's a reason why I think 3 Crypts are "essential".

IMO every DS board should run at least 3 Needle, Bomb, Crypt, better 4 Needles cuz its so versitaile.

[Zork]

So, based on the posts listed above, here is what I have learned about this deck:

Question: So, what are bad cards/MU for this deck?
Answer: Anything that isn't 43.Lands.

[snip]

Forlorn Egoist

Storm Combo is an incredibly, obscenely positive matchup. Seriously, I have never lost a match to storm with this deck. Zoo is pretty even, and Goblins is swingy (and dependent on their colors) but not in their favor.

[boneclub24]

This is what I have been running, and I'm loving it! I recently switched to this from Faerie Stompy, because I love big bomb creatures.

Mana Sources: 26
10 Mountain
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Chrome Mox

Bombs: 12
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Gathan Raiders
2 Arc-Slogger
2 Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs

Locks: 14
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Blood Moon
3 Trinisphere

Support: 8
4 Seething Song
2 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard: 15
4 Ratchet Bomb
4 Pyrokinesis
3 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Anarchy

[Masamune]

Very similar to my current list :D
I'm thinking about exchange 1 Slogger instead of 1 Kazuul, because IMO it is slight better (furthermore Kazuul was better than Slogger against Survivals)

[boneclub24]

Very similar to my current list :D
I'm thinking about exchange 1 Slogger instead of 1 Kazuul, because IMO it is slight better (furthermore Kazuul was better than Slogger against Survivals)

Survivals gone mate. I'll think about the Kazuul thing, but Slogger has been winning me tons of games. Plus, he's my favorite creature in Magic, which was one of the big reasons I chose this deck.

[NecroYawgmoth]

guys... what's the pointon Kazuul?

I really don't see it.

You all here know that I am not the biggest fan of Slogger and try to play FTKs and stuff like this to avoid cc4, but Slogger is still 142 times better than Kazuul. There is absolutely no reason to run any other cc5 critter in this deck, which is not called Slogger.

And if any of you others are randomly interested: I am atm back on the Hellbent-Train, and my list is the following:

4 Gathan Raiders
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
2 Arc-Slogger
2 Kargan Dragonlord

4 Blood Moon
3 Koth of the Hammer
3 Seething Song
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
4 Trinisphere

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Snow-Covered Mountain

Sideboard is the standard stuff like Needle/Crypt/Merfolk-Hate.


I don't know If I really need the Songs, or if 3 is the perfect nr thx to Koth, but I will see =D

suggestions? =P

[ForlornEgoist]

Few people will argue superiority between Slogger and Kazuul, however they both have advantages to them. True, Slogger can shock creatures to death or close out that remaining 4-8 damage, however he ultimately can't handle swarms of creatures and can't defeat a Goyf without said ability (since, on average, I found Goyf only ever gets to be a 4/5 against us :P). Kazuul, on the other hand, can easily beatdown a 4/5 Goyf, and more importantly, is able to handle swarms of creatures or tokens. Even if an opponent is only attacking with 1 creature Kazuul essentially says: "Pay :3: or don't bother attacking." That :3: can make a difference as it means they'll have less to do 2nd main phase or other instant-speed shenanigans (My personal favorite game with Kazuul involved a Belcher playing EtW for something like 12 tokens on T1, then I dropped a Kazuul T1 :O).

Forlorn Egoist

[Masamune]

Yup! However my current list is something like:
-1 Kazuul and +1 Slogger, because my meta is Fishes and Control decks. With no Belcher and Survivals I prefer run even LoSP (I love it hehehe... 6/6 easy is cool :P) than DragonLords and Koths. Maybe Koth would strategically affect more Bant and Taxes decks (with plowshares) than LoSPs, but we could test against it to see the results

[boneclub24]

Few people will argue superiority between Slogger and Kazuul, however they both have advantages to them. True, Slogger can shock creatures to death or close out that remaining 4-8 damage, however he ultimately can't handle swarms of creatures and can't defeat a Goyf without said ability (since, on average, I found Goyf only ever gets to be a 4/5 against us :P). Kazuul, on the other hand, can easily beatdown a 4/5 Goyf, and more importantly, is able to handle swarms of creatures or tokens. Even if an opponent is only attacking with 1 creature Kazuul essentially says: "Pay :3: or don't bother attacking." That :3: can make a difference as it means they'll have less to do 2nd main phase or other instant-speed shenanigans (My personal favorite game with Kazuul involved a Belcher playing EtW for something like 12 tokens on T1, then I dropped a Kazuul T1 :O).

Forlorn Egoist

Also, Kazuul puts on a quicker clock than Slogger, if you're not looking at abilities.

[mercs]

Also, Kazuul puts on a quicker clock than Slogger, if you're not looking at abilities.

LOL. that's like saying "juzam dijinn is faster than necrotic ooze, if you're not looking at abilities." :P

but seriously, i do like kazuul a lot, and i think it'd be great if he sees sucess in tourney play. i'm currently messing aound w/ some compliments for him right now, but not too much success yet.

[ForlornEgoist]

Alright, please don't bite my head off for the following statement:

Has anyone else considered removing Seething Song?

Something I've noticed alot with this deck is that once I've gotten past T5 or so the only cases Song still provides fuel is when I invest it into a 5cc creature or RPD. Beyond that it's typically a horrible topdeck. 8 :2: lands, Moxes/Simians as well as basic lands pretty much gurantees us to hit :3: which is what we curve out at, so it's not too unreasonably to reach :4: as the game progresses for creatures like RPD and Lord of Shatterskull Pass. Taking out Songs, however, means we would most likely have to reduce or remove Kazuul/Slogger.

In the place of Songs I'm considering trying out Crystal ball. It's not a SDT, I know, but its :3:, and unlike SDT it removes cards we don't want to see.

This is just an idea I'm considering. I think I'll plan on testing it at Legacy Tuesday, but I thought I'd post the idea here to see what your opinions are.

Forlorn Egoist

[NecroYawgmoth]

yep, I am often tring to cut Seething Song.

it's not that bad idea to cut it from non-Slogger Versions, but you can use Songs also to level up Shatterskulls and Kargans or pump RPD over the top... Seething Song is best in Turn 1-3 like the most other part of this deck.

If we remove Slogger the replacement would be Flametongue Kavu, IMO, but you know that many people say it's terrible...


BTW: I am bored about MtG the last days, and could translate my german primer into english... If you guys here are interested in it I'd do it and post it here, because the OP is somewhat outdated, so what do you think?

[lotriderm]

yep, I am often tring to cut Seething Song.

it's not that bad idea to cut it from non-Slogger Versions, but you can use Songs also to level up Shatterskulls and Kargans or pump RPD over the top... Seething Song is best in Turn 1-3 like the most other part of this deck.

If we remove Slogger the replacement would be Flametongue Kavu, IMO, but you know that many people say it's terrible...


BTW: I am bored about MtG the last days, and could translate my german primer into english... If you guys here are interested in it I'd do it and post it here, because the OP is somewhat outdated, so what do you think?

An updated primer will be greatly appreciated.

Also, I have cut Seething Song for a while (non-Slogger version), and I haven't missed it at all. In its slot, I just increased my creature count.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

What creature(s) did you choose for the slots? Also, is Taurean Mauler still used much?

[lotriderm]

What creature(s) did you choose for the slots? Also, is Taurean Mauler still used much?

I'm running 4x Taurean Mauler, I still think it beats hard and it's cheap to cast. I think in those Seething Song slots, I just increased my Taurean Mauler to 4, Lord of Shatterskull Pass to 3, and included 1 Sword of Fire and Ice (I sometimes struggle against Goblins and Merfolk; in addition to 2 maindeck Umezawa's Jitte).

[Masamune]

yep, I am often tring to cut Seething Song.....



Please....could anyone discrible a little more about this? What list we can run with no songs?

[NecroYawgmoth]

something like this:

4 Gathan Raiders
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Flametongue Kavu
3 Taurean Mauler
4 Lord of Shatterskull Pass
4 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
4 Trinisphere
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Snow-Covered Mountain

you can play around with the list, and cut Mauler for Kothes, or a Shatterskull and a Trini for 2 Kargan Dragonlords, or stuff like that... I don't see the problem.

[Yuri8]

I tried take them out, but even with just 8 of four drops(no five drops) i find really hard to achieve hellbent.

[Masamune]

something like this:

4 Gathan Raiders
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Flametongue Kavu
3 Taurean Mauler
4 Lord of Shatterskull Pass
4 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
4 Trinisphere
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Snow-Covered Mountain

you can play around with the list, and cut Mauler for Kothes, or a Shatterskull and a Trini for 2 Kargan Dragonlords, or stuff like that... I don't see the problem.

I'm gonna test it but I hate Mauler... maybe my list would be -3 Mauler and add SoFI or another strong and fast creature like DragonLord...

[Tacosnape]

Cutting Song is the wrong move. Trust me. I've tried to cut it.

Song is a beautiful acceleration card that enables turn two kills, ramps out Sloggers, pumps Dragons, turns Kargan Dragonlord beastly very quickly, and speeds up the whole Hellbent process. Without it, you're an average speed deck with sub-average cards.

Dragon Stompy -HAS- to be fast. Because being fast is the only chance it remotely has if the "Oops, I win" cards don't do their job. Going sellout aggro with Seething Song is pretty much the best strategy.

Song also imprints on Mox, where colorless alternatives do not, allowing you to curb your explosiveness a little bit for consistency should you judge it necessary.

[ForlornEgoist]

We're talking about an extra 2 mana of acceleration. Yeah, it pumps up Dragons/Lords and can enable great acceleration in the first few turns, but majority of games don't start off with T1-->Tomb/Mana-->Song-->Chalice @1/3Sphere, T2-->Beater. There are also decks which are capable of shutting off the lock piece that hurts them, or dealing with the creatures we shell out. And if they're able to stall out a board position (for example dropping a Jace 2.0), then we automatically enter topdeck mode. At that point there are a huge number of cards I don't want to see (Simian/Song/Mox/Magus (sometimes)). Yeah, on ocassion it is useful to power out 5cc creatures, or pump Dragons, but beyond that it's unnecessary, and I'm sure the deck can function w/o it of you alter the creature base.

As for your argument that it pitches to Mox: x4 RPD, X4 Gathan, x4 Simian, x4 Magus, x2-4 Blood. Just starting off with the auto-includes, we're looking at anywhere from 18-20 red cards that can be pitched. That's not including the extra creature slots, or people who opt to MD things like Pyrokinesis. I hardly think that "Song pitches to Mox," is an argument when at bare minimum 1/3 of the deck can do that. I've never run into an instance where I was desperately seeking a card to pitch to Mox, just as I'm sure many other Stompy players can make similar arguments from experience.

If you don't want to remove Song, fine. Like I said, I'm just testing an idea for myself. But regardless of whether or not you agree with removing Song, I do think Crystal Ball has some merit. Even though we're an aggro-heavy deck, I still think it's important that we prepare for the eventuality that the game will go longer than 5 or 6 turns, and as such being able to shuffle away dead topdecks seems like it'd be a useful thing to have.

I have Legacy tonight, so I'll let you know what my results were.

EDIT: LEGACY STATS TONIGHT

Okay, so I went 1 - 3 tonight. Not as good as I thought I would go, but it's my fault for playing Stompy in such an underdeveloped meta.

Here's the decklist:


4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Mountain

4 Chrome Mox
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
3 Crystal Ball
3 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Blood Moon

4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Flametongue Kavu
4 Gathan Raiders

Sideboard
3 Pithing Needle
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Volcanic Fallout
4 Pyrokinesis

Round 1: Bant
Game 1: Not much happened. He T1 fetch, pass. I T1 Magus, he fetchs island EOT Brainstorm. After this I beat with Magus for 10 damage, drop a RPD, Moon, and a Chalice @1, meanwhile he casts several Preordain/Ponder/Brainstorm and doesn't dig into an answer.
Game 2: I had no idea what he was playing, so I didn't SB anything against him. I mulled down to 4, he did a T1 Hierarch, a T2 Goyf, and a T3 Trygon. I was sitting on 1 City and a handful of 3cc stuff. He wins.
Game 3: I took out some Moon's for Pyrokinesis. I had to mull down to 5 this game, but I was better suited this time around. I continously tried to drop lock pieces, but he managed to get a T1 Hierarch and a T2 Goyf, so he proceeded to beat me sensless. I was able to get a RPD out and was hellbent. Unfortunately, he topdecks a Preordain (we were missing Sorcery) so his Goyf becomes a 5/6, Exalted buffing him to a 6/7. I only had enough to Firebreathe +3, so he beats, we trade, then 2nd main he drops another Goyf.

0-1

Round 2: Storm
No point in describing it. I won 2-1, and the loss I had was because I was being a newb player Game 2. I dropped a T1 3Sphere, and he was stuck for 5-6 turns. I proceeded to beat with Magus, however I for some reason opted not to play the 2nd 3sphere I had in my hand since T1. He drew into a Chain of Vapor, bounced the 3sphere, and went off. Yeah, I was stupid, I know.

1-1

Round 3: Affinity
Game 1: I drop 3 Sphere T1, Magus T2, Chalice @ 2 T3. He Scoops.
Game 2: I T2 Magus, but at this point he has Ravager/3 Artifacts/Cranial Plating and beats me. I didn't realize Artifact Land was a supertype and as such retained the "Artifact," part through Moon effects, so yeah...
Game 3: Similar to Game 2, only I used Pyrokinesis on 3 artifact creatures before he got to do any Affinity shenanigans, however he still pulls off Ravager/Cranial.

1-2

Round 4: Merfolk
Essentially what happened was the following:
Both games I mull to 5. He drops 4 Lords. I die.

1-3

So, my thoughts:

Crystal Ball was certainly a useful card. I definitely liked being able to shuffle away bad cards. However, the problem I ran into with it was if it was in my opening hand I was always putting this as the last priority. It would be anywhere from 5-7 or 8 turns before I even got around to playing. So, while I do think this is a useful card, I don't think it's necessary for the deck. The decks main power comes in those first few turns. We can't hope to compete with decks who are built for long games, so why bother. Explosive starts are how we win.

Taking the above statement into account, I am going to say that the Seething Songs are worth keeping, at least for me. I did find myself wishing I could cast more than 1 spell a turn, and Song helps out with that. It is indeed relevant in pumping up RPD/Lord, so for the moment I do plan to keep it in my Stompy build. I do stand by my original statement, however, that it is possible for the deck to function w/o Songs, and I'm sure someone could find a sucessful build that doesn't need them.

I don't like the Fallouts one bit, but last week I ran into a lot of tribal (Merfolk/Gobs/Soldier/Zombie) so I opted for some board removal. I chose Fallout because I liked the instant speed, but I now realized Pyroclasm costing 1 less is more relevant than instant speed. I also realize that Keg/Bomb are both more relevant to me than either sweepers, so I plan to put one of them back into the SB.

Anyway, after taking that beating today I think I'll be putting Stompy back on the shelf to gather dust until I can use it in a more developed meta.

Forlorn Egoist

[Masamune]

took out some Moon's for Pyrokinesis
Are you crazy? :P Moon effects against Bants and "XYZ" color controls is a bomb! Can screw them a lot. Remember also: Moons can't turn into land Dryads. Natural Order can target it anytime, so you still can kill with your Jittes and Kavus with moons in table


3x Jitte
IMO too much Jittes... Maybe 2x Jittes and 1x SoFI...because Legendary and 2cc can screw us a little...

1) Ratchet Bombs is a very useful card.... think about it: you can destroy tokens (I mean Belchers and Ichorids) and would be a masterpiece against your affinity opp... (many people forget that Bomb alternative strategy - to destroy something in play when it comes with no counters). Bomb is not too slow... can handle a little against Enchantress/ Ichorids and even Fishes...
2) Merfolk decks most CC is 2. Bombs and Chalices @2 is a perfect way to handle. Plus our Kavus and Slogger friends.
3) I don't like Crystall Ball. IMO isn't a card advantage and I prefer play at the beginning lock pieces and creatures after than look my deck to search the right card.... I don't know but I like to run Lords and Sloggers with songs yet (I have not tested yet other version discussed ago with no songs, maybe should be nice).
4)Try take Needles out and think about exchange into Bombs for instance (works better for me nowadays precisely since Survivals isn't playable anymore :D).
5) If Pyroclasm isn't works very well with it 2cc, maybe you would test odd stuffs like Steam Blast (hehe)

There is my tips :P. I hope it is useful

[d0ner]

hey there.
now i'm playing DS for a long time with success and I fully agree with Tacosnape: DON'T CUT SEETHING SONG!!!!!!!!!

I tried it and testet it, it makes DS more consistent, for sure. But like Tacosnape said: U get a midrange Aggro with midrange Creatures, every goyf can handle.

All u want is to do INSANE things in your first turn, whern your opponent is in prison. You still want do explode!


look @ Tacosnapes Post, everything has been said :D


@ Crystal Ball: Timewalk for your Opponent! Any Questions?

[Masamune]

I couldn't tell nothing until test it WITH song and with no song in MD. Even if songs with LoSP, RPDs and KDs isn't bad
About C. Ball: too slow for me and take a precious slot :\

[ForlornEgoist]

Are you crazy? :P Moon effects against Bants and "XYZ" color controls is a bomb! Can screw them a lot. Remember also: Moons can't turn into land Dryads. Natural Order can target it anytime, so you still can kill with your Jittes and Kavus with moons in table


IMO too much Jittes... Maybe 2x Jittes and 1x SoFI...because Legendary and 2cc can screw us a little...


His deck was some weird homebrew. He didn't run the NO-Progenitus combo and he was running x4 Ponder/Brainstorm/Preordain, so he was spamming draw spells. Also, unless I dropped a T1/2 Moon effect, he just fetched out basics. So I opted to remove 4 somewhat-dead Moon effects for some spot removal. He also told me afterwards he had no spot removal for my RPD beyond Sower, so I'm assuming he wasn't running StP. I honestly had no idea what the hell his game plan was. O.o

As for the Jitte's, I've had particular success with them. Yeah, they suck in multiples because of the Legendary rule, however I also know that I don't mind have a backup for when they destroy the first. Jitte can utterly reck games if it's not dealt with, so it usually becomes a primary target over one of my lock pieces. I also know that Jitte is the best way for me to recover from insane life loss or compete with bigger creatures before I have Hellbent or have powered up one of my levelers. If I were to opt to remove one, I would prefer a Sword of L/S as it gives life recovery and pro-StP/PtE.

And like I said earlier, they Crystal Ball was useful to me, but it was always the absolute last thing I wanted to play from my hand, so I've since removed them from the deck.

Can anyone tell me what they're experiences are with Kargan Dragonlord over Lord of Shatterskull Pass? The Dragonlord's final Level is shear awesomeness, however it seems like you have to invest alot more time into making him awesome whereas the Lord of Shatterskull Pass requires all of a 6 mana investment for me to be content to leave him be. Most of the time I don't even bother trying to reach his ultimate unless I have nothing better to do with the mana. So, yeah. Just interested to see how the Dragonlord has been working out for people who've tested him out.

Forlorn Egoist

[Masamune]

I don't know nothing about Dragonlords (I didn't test it yet) but about LoSPs, my current list has 2 of them and I'm trying to run 3 or even 4 (must to be tested...).
Yes, it requires six mana...but 4 initially and 2 after, in other words, I did my Passes turn two 6/6 with Mox+Tomb+Simian turn 1 and leveling it up 6/6 making any Goyf or fishes block it everytime...the ultimate level up dealing 6 damage is good when black decks with Nightwalks and Bloodgasts can hold in table all explosive attacks... either being little defensive ways like 2/2 creatures or with deathouchs abilities...
Doesn't matter whatt deck for instance but how we can handle with any aggro table when we have in the right moment only a sigle body.
I'll try to test DS with no 2CC like Dragonlords...I hate draw them when I want a horny dude (Sloggers and Passes :D)

[Purgatory]

I just bougt like a whole bunch of DS cards from my friend. He's having twins really soon, so he can use the extra cash, and I've had my eyes on this deck for quite some time. Win-win, I suppose :) The only cards I'm missing right now are City of Traitors, Ratchet Bombs and a few of the newer creatures (Kazuul etc.)

With the recent changes in the ban list, do you guys think that DS is well-positioned in the metagame? I usually play reactive aggro-control, but I've been messing around with some lists on MWS, and I like playing proactively for once, the cards the deck uses are cool, and it has some insane first turn plays. I was thinking about bringing it to a tournament pretty soon, if I can get my hands on some Cities and some Bombs, and considering that Storm Combo and Rock-like decks with rather fragile manabases are popular here in Sweden it seems like a good choice.

However, we also have a lot of Goblins in our metagame, usually I play Goblins at least once in every tournament I play. How would I sideboard? Obviously, Pyrokinesis goes right in, and I was thinking -Chalice +Needle if I'm on the draw, but other than that, I'm not sure. Do I want the Bombs? They seem rather weak considering their diverse curve, but blowing up Vials, Lackeys, Goblin Tokens etc. is nice. Siding out cards for Needle/Pyrokinesis is always a stretch though, and I don't think I can afford to side out more.

[TheSleeper]

Well Moon effects aren't great vs Goblins so I'd start there..

[Purgatory]

Well Moon effects aren't great vs Goblins so I'd start there..

I like to keep in the Magus at least, because he can carry swords and he turns off KGrip/Warren Wierding. But granted, they're probably the weakest cards.

[Tivon]

One the Play:

+4 Pyrokinesis
- 3 Blood moon
-1 other (cause I only run 3 blood moon main)

On the Draw:
+4 pyrokinesis
+3 Needle

-3 Bloodmoon
-4 Chalice

I personally wouldn't bother with ratchet bomb against them. Jitte is usually going to be stronger against them anyways

[Purgatory]

One the Play:

+4 Pyrokinesis
- 3 Blood moon
-1 other (cause I only run 3 blood moon main)

On the Draw:
+4 pyrokinesis
+3 Needle

-3 Bloodmoon
-4 Chalice

I personally wouldn't bother with ratchet bomb against them. Jitte is usually going to be stronger against them anyways

I also run 3 BMoon maindeck, so it applies to me too. Maybe -1 Magus or something.

Thanks a lot for the advice. I'm gonna sleeve up the deck with some proxies and test it against my friends this afternoon.

[Tivon]

I usually leave in magus just because I like the body with the added on effect of shutting off splash and waste/port. I usually cut a trinisphere or Red Akroma when she is being played. Recently, due to dropping her, it has been a trinisphere

[Secretly.A.Bee]

You do WHAT?!? Stop, no, bad. Don't do that. 3sphere stays, Chalices go out. Chalice sucks compared to 3sphere against goblins. They often destroy it/get around it with or make land drops 'til turn 3 and drop a vial/lackey eventually, but it kills their tempo long enough for you to find a Pyrokinesis/Firespout/whatever to clean up their attempts at assembling an army while beating face with a creature swingin' a sword of fire/ice. It's a great card for getting through goblins AND Merfolk (if it resolves...) and can really win you some matches. People think that the card draw is bad, but I think that in a metagame where both red and blue aggro lists boast high play rates, card advantage will definitely be appreciated in the long run, even if it makes it harder to go hellbent.

--ABC

[ForlornEgoist]

I think the issue myself and a lot of other DS players have noticed is that 3sphere A) Sucks in multiples against Merfolk/Gobs and B) Ultimately doesn't shut off Vial. Of course it's not as if they'll have Vial every game, and 3sphere does slow down they're tempo, but it doesn't disable threats such as Warren Weirding or Piledriver. Chalice @1, however, removes Vial/Lackey and Chalice @2 disables Instigator/Piledriver and Weirding/Goyf for the builds that opt to splash. I typically opt to keep 3spheres (maybe removing 1) as even though they don't stop vial, they still force that player to rely much more heavily on Vial to cast threats. I typically end up removing several Moon effects for burn. I don't remove them entirely since they're Port/Waste would slow us down incredibly, but having Burn does help us deal better with Lords/Piledriver.

Forlorn Egoist

[Tivon]

I do WHAT? Stop, think, yes, good.

I'd also like to reiterate:

I cut one trinishphere. usually leaving me with 2 in the maindeck (sometimes 3 depending on how I metagamed).

I could even make a valid argument for cutting trinisphere for another card like ratchet bomb if you've got it in the sideboard. It's just not that exceptional in the matchup unless they have a blank board and you can play it turn one and chain threats.

[FieryBalrog]

Trinisphere is a lot worse on the draw, especially vs Goblins/Merfolk and other decks with Vial or Lackey effects. I would however always keep it on the play simply because T1 trinisphere on the play is often game.

[Zupponn]

What FieryBalrog said

[Purgatory]

I did some playtesting against Zoo this weekend and it seems like a rough match-up, mostly thanks to their ability to actually use red mana from Moon'd duals and fetches, and because of their maindeck hate in Qasali Pridemage. Maybe my opponent was lucky to draw into them or whatever, and if the Zoo guy doesn't know what he's up against it gets better, but still... How does one sideboard against Zoo?

I use this sideboard:

4 Pyrokinesis
4 Ratchet Bomb
3 Pithing Needle
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Trinisphere

With a fairly standard classic Hellbent DT maindeck (7 Moon effects, Arc-Sloggers and so on). Thankful for any help.

[Masamune]

Chalice of The Void @1 is the best way against it... even Moon effects turn 1 screwing all fetches... IMO Pithing isn't a good option...maybe Bomb's wich is a nice stuff against merfolks also, can destroy Goyfs and Reliquarys...Chalice @1 screw Bolts, Chains, Nacalts, Paths, Lavamancers and Figures. Slogger with any equipment or with Chalice in table delay easily and allow us play safety RPDs and Riders

[0dysseus]

I'd like to try this new guy, Phyrexian Revoker, in the place of Needles.
Look at him: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=114247&stc=1&d=1295327697 .

Theory: Since we take care of nonbasics, the "nonland" difference could be trivial, plus that Revoker can shut off non-land mana abilities, while Needle can't. Mox Diamonds, LEDs, Lotus Petals, N.Hierarchs, elves, Spr.Drums, etc. He's at 2 converted, right, but I think Needle's worst drawback was its conflict with Chalice. Not that P.R. completely solves this, but a cc=2 is more difficult to have a problem with, considering (A)our most common play is Chalice at 1 and (B)you don't usually play Chalice2 first turn, while you can cast Revoker first turn -before that Chalice that would counter him. He's more removable than Needle with an artifact body of 2/1, but he has a body to attack nonetheless. Thank the gods he isn't mythic, just in case this thing works.

PS: Needle-lovers can play 8 now :D

[mercs]

I'd like to try this new guy, Phyrexian Revoker, in the place of Needles.
Look at him: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=114247&stc=1&d=1295327697 .

Theory: Since we take care of nonbasics, the "nonland" difference could be trivial, plus that Revoker can shut off non-land mana abilities, while Needle can't. Mox Diamonds, LEDs, Lotus Petals, N.Hierarchs, elves, Spr.Drums, etc. He's at 2 converted, right, but I think Needle's worst drawback was its conflict with Chalice. Not that P.R. completely solves this, but a cc=2 is more difficult to have a problem with, considering (A)our most common play is Chalice at 1 and (B)you don't usually play Chalice2 first turn, while you can cast Revoker first turn -before that Chalice that would counter him. He's more removable than Needle with an artifact body of 2/1, but he has a body to attack nonetheless. Thank the gods he isn't mythic, just in case this thing works.

PS: Needle-lovers can play 8 now :D

Yup. I think every1's going to jump on these. They're probably good enough to main.

[NecroYawgmoth]

well... woke up too early and can't sleep now, so I post at TS.

I think Revoker is much better in DS then Needle is. We no need to name Wasteland like other decks, and we can protect it with COTV1. That also means the [rarely seen] antisynergy between Needle and COTV is gone. I think we are just going to exchange Needles with Revokers like we exchanged Kegs with Bombs.

I could finally run 7 Needles, if my board weren't full =P.


other than that: I am going away from that non-hellbent plan...

Many testings of myself have proven that Taco is 100% right. You CANT cut Hellbent from that deck, because you lose too much aggro, and are there with mediocore critters which are somewhat to slow. The same is 100% true for Seething Song. We must play 4. If you don't understand me, you haven't tested enough with both versions. I did, and I really hope to move this deck away from Hellbent, but I failed because it's not possible [actually it is, but it is not good].

Congratulations Taco, you were right, the whole time... >.>


With all that said. I still have to disagree with you in 1 point:

"2 Kargan Dragonlord is core for the deck"

No, it isn't IMO... well OK, I like him, I really really like him, but he is not made for DS IMO. You play it as your first critter if you have nothing other to do in the first turn, but after that, you have to do 401 other things with your mana, like playing more critters, lockpieces, blabla, that you just can't level him up. He is good if you draw him as a topdeck in the lategame, without question, but in the early he just isn't needed. Most of the time you dropped him first,you end the game a few turns later, and he is still 2/2.

For me... he suffers under the same things Lord of Shatterskull Ass suffers. You say, a 6/6 for 4RR is bad, and isn't that what DS wants, because it doesn't singlehandedly wins the game. While this is true, a 4/4 flyer for RRRRRR doesn't do that either.


oh and BTW... Bardo said he wanted to close this topic, and redirect all the traffic to my "new" Primer. That's the reason I wrote it =P. Still people are posting here... something's going wrong?

[0dysseus]

[...]

"2 Kargan Dragonlord is core for the deck"

No, it isn't IMO... well OK, I like him, I really really like him, but he is not made for DS IMO. You play it as your first critter if you have nothing other to do in the first turn, but after that, you have to do 401 other things with your mana, like playing more critters, lockpieces, blabla, that you just can't level him up. He is good if you draw him as a topdeck in the lategame, without question, but in the early he just isn't needed. Most of the time you dropped him first,you end the game a few turns later, and he is still 2/2.

For me... he suffers under the same things Lord of Shatterskull Ass suffers. You say, a 6/6 for 4RR is bad, and isn't that what DS wants, because it doesn't singlehandedly wins the game. While this is true, a 4/4 flyer for RRRRRR doesn't do that either.


oh and BTW... Bardo said he wanted to close this topic, and redirect all the traffic to my "new" Primer. That's the reason I wrote it =P. Still people are posting here... something's going wrong?

You're right about Dragonlord and your mana, and I think that's the reason Tacosnape would play 2 of them, even if he could play 3 or 4. I would play 1, you know my answer, to eliminate the slightest chance to have to level up both, and I'd fill the last slot with sth else that works otherwise, or with a Lord of Shatterskull Pass, who can be left @ lvl1 as a 6/6. You can safely play 2-4 Lords just because of that.

I mostly observe this thread in mtgthesource and I didn't know a new primer was ready. No admin posted here to notify us about redirection too. Could you post a link? I'd kindly suggest you mention and consult the makers of this deck bro...if you haven't done that already:)) No offence meant about your effort, okay? It's very good you wrote a new primer, I'm eager to see it!

[NecroYawgmoth]

My Primer is also on site 1 of the established deck site, means we have 2 Threads atm.

link ---> http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19745-Dragon-Stompy


If there are things that need to be mentioned, feel free to PM me or post it, as I will kep the OP up to date =)

As far as things going, Bardo said, I should PM him, if I posted it... I did, but no response until now =(

[Sims]

My Primer is also on site 1 of the established deck site, means we have 2 Threads atm.

link ---> http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19745-Dragon-Stompy


If there are things that need to be mentioned, feel free to PM me or post it, as I will kep the OP up to date =)

As far as things going, Bardo said, I should PM him, if I posted it... I did, but no response until now =(

Dan, like most of the mods, is a busy guy that has a life outside the site. We can voluntarily discontinue discussion here and carry on in the new thread until this one is locked and the redirect is set up.

Also, might be worthwhile to pm the other admins, one of them is likely to get on and see the message and take care of teh lock and redirect if Bardo doesn't get the chance.

[0dysseus]

Well done Yawg! I really enjoyed reading your new primer. I liked the rulings tips a lot. Wish I could help by providing accurate info about the matchups, but I don't consider myself a top player. You can provide a link of the old thread, and do word error correction in just a few spots. Thank you very much for creating it (and the veterans of old that helped of course=)) Respect dude!

Let's mention it again,

THE NEW THREAD IS HERE :

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19745-Dragon-Stompy