[Deck] Dragon Stompy

[yurivish]

I don't think the mauler will be good. Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't this deck play chalice and 3sphere? The purpose of these cards is to make sure your opponent doesn't play cheap card soon, which means that mauler on turn 1 will be a 1/1 for a good 3/4 turns. A 1/1 on turn 3/4 != a threat. These are my opinions on why he won't be a good fit for the deck even though he does look pretty sexy.

He's a 2/2 without any counters on him, not a 1/1. If you play him on turn 1, you're clearly not playing a chalice or 3sphere that turn anyway, so unless the opponent does a land, go on you, you've got a first-turn 3/3 for 3 who will only get larger as time goes by. Doesn't seem that bad to me.

[Phantom]

I don't think the mauler will be good. Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't this deck play chalice and 3sphere? The purpose of these cards is to make sure your opponent doesn't play cheap card soon, which means that mauler on turn 1 will be a 2/2 for a good 3/4 turns. A 2/2 on turn 3/4 != a threat. These are my opinions on why he won't be a good fit for the deck even though he does look pretty sexy.

I don't understand this thought process at all (he's a 2/2 to begin, so maybe that's what tripped you up). Have you ever lost a game where the opponent didn't play a spell??? Mauler's either a bland 2/2 for :3: in which case you win cause they are not playing spells or he's a undercosted beating for 2R (the best cc for us). It doesn't hurt that the best deck in the meta is basically a gro deck that doesn't run Dryad (so it will only be growing our guy). Lastly, I like him drawing a piece of removal away from Dragon/Magus (something Sulfur elemental rarely did because no one was scared of it).

Basically, without testing I can only really see it sucking in the late game, when we have bad board position, or against decks that don't cast many spells.

[J.V.]

From my list I'm going to cut
-1 Sword of Fire & Ice
-1 Arc-Slogger
-1 Gathan Raider or Magus of the Moon
+3 Mauler

[Illissius]

I don't understand this thought process at all (he's a 2/2 to begin, so maybe that's what tripped you up). Have you ever lost a game where the opponent didn't play a spell??? Mauler's either a bland 2/2 for :3: in which case you win cause they are not playing spells or he's a undercosted beating for 2R (the best cc for us).

That's one way of looking at it. Another is that you're trying to put them away before they can recover from the Chalices, Spheres, and Moons; and with Mauler swinging away for only two a turn, it could give them the time they need to stabilize, merely by playing more lands and drawing into answers. Of course, if the comparison is Sulfur Elemental, he could well come out on top -- I'm just saying that it doesn't look so clear-cut to me, and probably needs testing to determine one way or the other.

[ebbitten]

I don't understand this thought process at all (he's a 2/2 to begin, so maybe that's what tripped you up). Have you ever lost a game where the opponent didn't play a spell???

Well yes i have actually, namely to ichorid; but honostely this guy is looking like a godsend to me.

[Waikiki]

I'll be playing this deck upcoming sunday in a large legacy event.
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
10 [MM] Mountain (1)
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors

// Creatures
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
4 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
4 [FUT] Gathan Raiders
4 [DIS] Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 [MR] Arc-Slogger

// Spells
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
2 [DS] Trinisphere
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
2 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
4 [MR] Seething Song
3 [9E] Blood Moon

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 4 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [UD] Powder Keg
SB: 4 [AL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 2 [10E] Pithing Needle

Im still uncertain with this sideboard. My meta will contain alot of pikula/***** and a few landstill/ichorid decks. The rest is mostly random some goblins/lftl decks Any suggestions?

[freakish777]

Have you ever lost a game where the opponent didn't play a spell???

Well yes i have actually, namely to ichorid; but honostely this guy is looking like a godsend to me.

Me too. Playing Threshold against 42 Lands...

Literally, no spells played. Just 3 Wastelands, a Tabernacle, and some manland beats. wtf

[zulander]

He's a 2/2 without any counters on him, not a 1/1. If you play him on turn 1, you're clearly not playing a chalice or 3sphere that turn anyway, so unless the opponent does a land, go on you, you've got a first-turn 3/3 for 3 who will only get larger as time goes by. Doesn't seem that bad to me.

Yeah that was my bad. I thought he was a 1/1. For a 2/2 he's a better choice than sulfur elemental.

[Tacosnape]

I'll be playing this deck upcoming sunday in a large legacy event.
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
10 [MM] Mountain (1)
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors

// Creatures
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
4 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
4 [FUT] Gathan Raiders
4 [DIS] Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 [MR] Arc-Slogger

// Spells
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
2 [DS] Trinisphere
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
2 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
4 [MR] Seething Song
3 [9E] Blood Moon

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 4 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [UD] Powder Keg
SB: 4 [AL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 2 [10E] Pithing Needle

Im still uncertain with this sideboard. My meta will contain alot of pikula/***** and a few landstill/ichorid decks. The rest is mostly random some goblins/lftl decks Any suggestions?

Moar Pithing Needle.

[J.V.]

I think this will be my Post-Morning Tide list. What do you think?
Lands:18
10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors

Creatures:22
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Arc-Slogger
3 Taurean Mauler

Noncreature Spells:20
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
3 Blood Moon
3 Trinisphere
3 Seething Song
3 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard:15
4 Pithing Needle
3 Powder Keg
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pyroclasm
1 Pyrokenesis
1 Blood Moon
1 Trinisphere

[Tacosnape]

That's pretty close to my list, as well. I maindeck the 8th Moon and the 4th Slogger over the 3rd Mauler and 3rd Trini and have a slightly different sideboard as such.

[enemyofarsenic]

What do you guys think about this card?

Countryside Crusher

Creature - Giant Warrior
At the beginning of your upkeep, reveal the top card of your library.
If it’s a land card, put it into your graveyard and repeat this process.
Whenever a land card is put into your graveyard from anywhere, put a +1/+1 counter on Countryside Crusher.
3/3

[Waikiki]

it cost 1RR so it seems not all that great with its RR and since we only run 18 land.

[J.V.]

What do you guys think about this card?

Countryside Crusher

Creature - Giant Warrior
At the beginning of your upkeep, reveal the top card of your library.
If it’s a land card, put it into your graveyard and repeat this process.
Whenever a land card is put into your graveyard from anywhere, put a +1/+1 counter on Countryside Crusher.
3/3

Also since we run no draw/cantrips As long as we have him in play we will not get anymore land drops unless we already had some in hand and RPD and Arc-Slogger like having a decent number of mountains out.

[Tacosnape]

That thing's a fantastic freaking card, though. Just not in here.

[Waikiki]

So I took Dragon stompy to a 6th place in a 65+ tournament today. (T8 not played out)

R1 vs MBA

I keep a solid hand and start with chalice which proofs to be devastating to him.
Gathan raider goes all the way.

G2, I put a slogger into play T2 which walks all over him.

R2 vs Terrageddon

G1 is hard and I loose thnx to deed.
G2 I have alot of threats and he got alot of plows. My chalice stops his moxen from resolving and trini shuts down explosives while needle shuts down deed and I finally get a slogger to stay.
G3 An early slogger seems to much of an threat since it kill's 3 confidants during the beatdown process.

R3 vs Solidarity
G1 Magus which he counters (he plays duals for cunning wish tech)
He counters and I follow with a chalice for 1 and start to beatdown with raiders + sofi
G2 He goes of in respond to my turn 3 3sphere.
G3 Sphere/chalice + beatdown seals the deal.

R4 vs MUC
G1 + G2 I can't do much vs his triple force spike/fow/Shackles

R5 vs Meathooks

G1 I easily beat him down with magus + sofi
G2 He plays 3 daze + 2 fow in the first 3 turns and I run out of gas.
G3 Starts looking ok but he gets 2 basics and plays muscle muscle muscle ftw :(

R6 vs Aluren
G1 Magus of the moon shuts him down quickly.
G2 Same story just Blood moon + slogger.

R7 vs Pikula splash green for goyf/deed
G1 Magus goes rapes yet again an expensive manabase.
G2 A rakdos-pit dragon with hellbent hurts alot when its down T2.

Sorry for the short report but it's late :)

[Maagler]

I have seen a lot of decks packing 4 jitte. what does everyone else think about the equipment ratio? should there be any SOFaI? Is it a total metagame call? Ive never seen the pro blue come into use, maybe against faerie stompy.

[J.V.]

I have seen a lot of decks packing 4 jitte. what does everyone else think about the equipment ratio? should there be any SOFaI? Is it a total metagame call? Ive never seen the pro blue come into use, maybe against faerie stompy.
Andy personally I like 3 Jitte:1 SOFI its worked fantastically for me.

[Bovinious]

I have seen a lot of decks packing 4 jitte. what does everyone else think about the equipment ratio? should there be any SOFaI? Is it a total metagame call? Ive never seen the pro blue come into use, maybe against faerie stompy.

Currently I run 4 Jitte 1 SOFI, but only because I only own one SOFI, I would run a 3 Jitte 2 SOFI config if I could.

[Zork]

I have been running 3 Jitte 2 Sword but I have also messed around with switching these. I have never wished for a different equipment ratio as the only times I have drawn into multiple Jittes the first had been deeded/disenchanted away.

[Ragnarok]

I dropped the jittes because I found them to slow, So I put in 2 Sword of Light and Shadow and added a third SoFI. SoLaS gives you protection from the most spot-removal played nowadays.

[kabal]

Boldwyr Heavyweights (http://mtgsalvation.com/morningtide-spoiler.html#2213) - 2RR

Creature - Giant Warrior
Trample
When Boldwyr Heavyweights comes into play, each opponent may search his or her library for a creature card and put it into play. Then each player who searches his or her library this way shuffles it.
8/8

What do you guys think? At a glance it seem pretty sold, then the thought is that what if they grap a Shriekmaw. OUCH.

[Zork]

SoLaS doesn't make Simian Spirit Guide scary against Tarmogoyf or goblins, though.

EDIT: He looks pretty huge, but I don't think I would run him over Dragon or Slogger, and the deck can't really afford too many 4/5 drops. I think it would be worth it to try 2 in place of 2 dragons just to see how often he is good and how often he is bad.

[Maagler]

he might be a fast finisher against combo, also there are not that many creatures that can kill him in combat 1 for 1, unless they are packing darksteel colossus.

[Tacosnape]

Boldwyr Heavyweights (http://mtgsalvation.com/morningtide-spoiler.html#2213) - 2RR

Creature - Giant Warrior
Trample
When Boldwyr Heavyweights comes into play, each opponent may search his or her library for a creature card and put it into play. Then each player who searches his or her library this way shuffles it.
8/8

What do you guys think? At a glance it seem pretty sold, then the thought is that what if they grap a Shriekmaw. OUCH.

I agree this is somewhat dangerous, despite the absurd potential. You run the very real risk of them grabbing their biggest threat and then removing your Heavyweights. Additionally, decks like Goblins are going to hunt up a Matron, and then Matron for Warren Weirding. Plus, yes, it does die to Shriekmaw.

That said, it's a freaking 8/8 Trample which would come down on turn one or two, usually. That has to be worth testing.


I dropped the jittes because I found them to slow, So I put in 2 Sword of Light and Shadow and added a third SoFI. SoLaS gives you protection from the most spot-removal played nowadays.

A. How exactly is an equipment that costs :5: to play and equip faster than one that costs :4: to play and equip?

B. Sword of Light and Shadow doesn't protect you from any relevant removal if they play it in response to your equip activation.

[TeKo]

A. How exactly is an equipment that costs to play and equip faster than one that costs to play and equip?

Because it gives +2/+2 an Jitte do nothing in the turn you play it if your opponent have no creatures SoFI does 4dmg to him and on a Pit Dragon (with Hellbent) 8dmg.

[Maagler]

I play tested online to see what the appropriate amount of equipment was for the deck. I tried SOFaI And liked it mostly as a 1-2 of. Also i think that 5 equipment may be too many for the deck. I think that the best ratio is either 2 jitte;2 SOFaI or 3 Jitte;1 SOFaI. I tried playing with the four Jitte and I allays seemed to draw multiples. In fact one game I drew 3. It was not that big of a deal though, because one got forced, and i discarded the other to raiders. although the results may be skewed because of the MWS shuffler...

Boldwyr Heavyweights is defiantly not going to break th deck in my opinion. but it might rival the dragon, it is unconditionally big unlike the dragon, but at the same time Shriekmaw makes me wince.

(lol sorry i ramble)

[Ragnarok]

B. Sword of Light and Shadow doesn't protect you from any relevant removal if they play it in response to your equip activation.

That's absolutely true, but; As Teko allready explained it gives your creatures +2/+2 the turn it is attached to a creature. Besides that, if they want to kill or remove your creature they would do it anyway, replacing Jitte for SoLaS doesn't change that. But what does change is if they do not have instant removal at that moment you will gain 3 lifes each turn and beat for at least two more. And the most important thing above all, Having chalice in play with 2 counters on it is the nuts versus a lot of decks.

[JDunkin00]

I played Dragon Stompy this past week at a local tourney and had some unimpressive results. I lost twice to b/r confidant burn discard pile. Overall I am very happy with the deck just bad matchup evidently.

[Zork]

This deck does lose pretty hard to some random trash.

As for intimidators I am liking them less and less in the face of creature removal and fatties, but IF you do run him, SoFaI should definately be in the deck since it is the nuts on him.

[nastynate]

This deck does lose pretty hard to some random trash.

To be a bit more specific, this deck occasionally struggles against mono-colored decks with robust mana bases and mana curves that don't top out at 2 (like traditional suicide black and ponza). It also has serious trouble against goyf sligh and some vial affinity builds; even burn decks can pose a big problem if you don't draw an arc-slogger (your only creature that can't be easily killed by a timely played 2+ casting cost burn spell like incinerate or fireblast).

Such is the fate of a metagame hate deck like dragon stompy...you can't hate decks that defy normal metagame trends.

[Tacosnape]

To be a bit more specific, this deck occasionally struggles against mono-colored decks with robust mana bases and mana curves that don't top out at 2 (like traditional suicide black and ponza). It also has serious trouble against goyf sligh and some vial affinity builds; even burn decks can pose a big problem if you don't draw an arc-slogger (your only creature that can't be easily killed by a timely played 2+ casting cost burn spell like incinerate or fireblast).

Such is the fate of a metagame hate deck like dragon stompy...you can't hate decks that defy normal metagame trends.

This is a large part of why I'm a strong advocate of Umezawa's Jitte in this deck. Umezawa's Jitte completely annihilates a lot of random jank. Now granted, you're still going to scoop hardcore to the occasional random 4 Prison/4 Propaganda deck and whatnot, but Jitte will win you those Sui Black and Ponza games on more than a few occasions.

[JDunkin00]

This is a large part of why I'm a strong advocate of Umezawa's Jitte in this deck. Umezawa's Jitte completely annihilates a lot of random jank. Now granted, you're still going to scoop hardcore to the occasional random 4 Prison/4 Propaganda deck and whatnot, but Jitte will win you those Sui Black and Ponza games on more than a few occasions.

I am on board with you jitte often helps me more than SoFI. I also think the rorix bladewing from worlds sideboard was very impressive. I know Taco has probs with excessive red cost and the moon effects cuts off your accel lands but it won me a couple games worst case scenario it can hide under mox. Also thanks for the advice on powder keg it owned the ichorid match up for me.

[la loutre]

about equipement

I think sword of XXXX are really not combo with the hellbent
jitte not combo with CotV at 2 and slower than powder keg,I would maybe run them into SB

I think the best equip for MD is grafted wargear,makes your 2/2 (SSG,magus,morph) 5/4 ,it'nice, but not enough

i run 0 equip' on MD


about morning tide:

_the giant 8/8 trample is really bad, too dangerous,
_countryside crusher, maybe a kind of "cantrip"
-Spitebellows maybe a card on SB against tarmo and terravore (in addition of tormod's)
-taurean mauler, is such a "false good card" absolutly not combo with the stax of the deck

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Whene you could attach a sword of xxxx on a creature attack with it and hit the player you dont need hellblent, because you are already in a very good position!

Yes jitte is no combo with cotv @ 2 but i think the powerful effekt of jitte is wroth the dissynergy! I am not a dragon stompy expert but in my fareie stompy testings jitte was great!

I think 3 swords and 2 jitte is the way to go!

[godryk]

about equipement

I think sword of XXXX are really not combo with the hellbent


Well, that's certainly true for Sword of Fire and Ice, however, Sword of Light and Shadows reads:


Equipped creature gets +2/+2 and has protection from white and from black.
Whenever equipped creature deals combat damage to a player, you gain 3 life and you may return up to one target creature card from your graveyard to your hand.

You may choose wether you pick the creature or not, so it doesn't interphere with Hellbent. I'm not sure if it's better than Sword of Light and Shadow (hell, I'm not even sure if we do need so much equipment), but it's definitely better than Grafted Wargear. If Grafted Wargear is destroyed it will be considered as unattached and its sacrice abbility will trigger, that's a free 2x1.

[JDunkin00]

The thing with equipment is it lets magus and spirit guide beat in also. If you can find suitable 2-3 mana creatures that affects the board like sword and jitte let us know so we can test it. Also my first Chalice is set to 1 or 0 depending on what I am playing. Occassionally 2 is optimal such as survival goyf or scepter X or slivers but in those matchups the loss of 2-3 jittes is totally worth nuking their main strategy.

[kabal]

Here is a list that was recently post up @ Deckcheck.net (Aka: Germagic.de) that came in 1st. Not that this really holds a lot of weight since it was just a 15 person tourney. The interesting thing is that it choose to not run the hellbend guys and instead proceeded more of a classic EtW build minus Etw. Anyhow...

Seething Slogger (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=12622) by Michael Steinecke

4 Arc-Slogger
3 Flametongue Kavu
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Solemn Simulacrum
4 Sulfur Elemental

4 Seething Song

1 Blood Moon

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
2 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Trinisphere
3 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Mountain

Sideboard:
3 Pyroblast
3 Pyrokinesis
1 Anarchy
2 Pyroclasm
2 Shattering Spree
1 Blood Moon
3 Powder Keg

[largebrandon]

I like the build a lot, but there are no Dragons to make it Dragon Stompy!! :)

[Nihil Credo]

Bleck. I can't think of any good reason to play FTK over Gathan Raiders. And Solemn Simulacrum is a glorified Aven Fisher. Thumbs down for me.

[Tacosnape]

Bleck. I can't think of any good reason to play FTK over Gathan Raiders. And Solemn Simulacrum is a glorified Aven Fisher. Thumbs down for me.

Agreed. The two best creatures in the deck are in some order Rakdos Pit Dragon and Gathan Raiders. I can't imagine a scenario where it would be correct to ever run less than four of each until better cards are printed, and they certainly don't get replaced by the likes of Solemn Simulacrum, Flametongue Kavu, and Sulfur Elemental.

There really isn't any reason -not- to run the Hellbent guys, as Hellbent is a mechanic that rewards you for blind aggression, which is the route that this deck has to take given the complete lack of card draw and ability to play a long game. Dragon Stompy is really probably one of the most aggressive decks in the format, and I can't imagine why we wouldn't play cards that reward such a strategy.

[aTn]

I took Dragon Stompy to two tournaments in the past few months (from 20 to 30 players) and finished second and third. I really like the deck but, from my point of view, it was really inconsistant. Other than bad match-ups and occasionnal play mistakes, some of the games I lost were due to me having to mull a lot or to me drawing crap (aka. mana sources when you don't need them) for x turns straight. Am I cursed or did any of you guys have the same problem ? If so, do you have a potential solution to this problem (shuffle effects, draw spells, etc.) ?

[Phantom]

I took Dragon Stompy to two tournaments in the past few months (from 20 to 30 players) and finished second and third. I really like the deck but, from my point of view, it was really inconsistant. Other than bad match-ups and occasionnal play mistakes, some of the games I lost were due to me having to mull a lot or to me drawing crap (aka. mana sources when you don't need them) for x turns straight. Am I cursed or did any of you guys have the same problem ? If so, do you have a potential solution to this problem (shuffle effects, draw spells, etc.) ?


Play Threshold.

Seriously, you can't expect a deck to be as explosive as DS and be as consistent as Threshold. You're trading the occasional self loss for the occasional retarded auto win. First turn Moon. Win. First turn Chalice. Win. First turn Slogger. Win. Second turn win...Win. And red is probably worse than other colors of Chalice Aggro as we have no draw/tutor/filters and even more accelrant slots for busted plays but also inconsistency.

I doubt that there will ever be a good solution to this.

[nastynate]

I took Dragon Stompy to two tournaments in the past few months (from 20 to 30 players) and finished second and third. I really like the deck but, from my point of view, it was really inconsistant. Other than bad match-ups and occasionnal play mistakes, some of the games I lost were due to me having to mull a lot or to me drawing crap (aka. mana sources when you don't need them) for x turns straight. Am I cursed or did any of you guys have the same problem ? If so, do you have a potential solution to this problem (shuffle effects, draw spells, etc.) ?

Countryside crusher + crucible of worlds seems like a perfect combination for smoothing your draws. Pitch all lands to the GY, play them with crucible, and draw only business spells. Like almost everyone else, I didn't think the crushinator was a good fit for this deck at first, but with crucible it's pretty nasty. For some mock testing I cut sloggers (blasphemy, I know) to fit the crushers, and moved the equipment to the side-board for main deck crucibles.

With the sloggers gone, the only cards I'm running with casting cost greater than 3 are the pit dragons (and the raiders, technically speaking), so even without crucible in play, I've had little trouble casting spells after resolving a crusher. I also run 4 magus of the moon and 4 blood moon, so getting double red for crusher isn't a problem.

That leaves this list.

Beaters
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Countryside Crusher

Disruption
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Blood Moon

Utility
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Trinisphere

Mana
4 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Seething Song (I might cut these since they are terrible top-decks without a pit dragon in play)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Mountain

Side-Board
4 Pyrokinesis / Arc-Slogger / Pyroclasm (not sure which is best yet)
4 Tormod's Crypt
1 Trinisphere
3 Powder Keg
3 Umezawa's Jitte

Crusher ends games much faster than than slogger did, and never again top-decking land after turn 3 or 4 is absolutely fantastic. Obviously crusher isn't quite as nasty here as it is in loam decks, but our disruption is much, much better. I do miss the MD removal spells (slogger and jitte) but I can bring 7 in from the board if I find myself in need of them.

[aTn]

[QUOTE=Phantom;198362]Play Threshold. [QUOTE]

Hehe... it's actually funny cause I play threshold most of the time (maybe that's why I made the comment).

I agree that there doesn't seem to be any easy solution to inconsistency for the case of a mono-R deck. Fetchlands could have been ok, but with the life-loss from Ancient Tomb, it seems like a bad idea. Things like Gamble don't make sense in such a deck (in particular since your hand is nearly empty most of the time) and I didn't test Brow Beat but is doesn't seem that hot (and I'm sure it was discussed previously).

[Maveric78f]

Obviously crusher isn't quite as nasty here as it is in loam decks, but our disruption is much, much better. I do miss the MD removal spells (slogger and jitte) but I can bring 7 in from the board if I find myself in need of them.

That's because people did not understand yet that the 1CC slots were the worst of the loam decks. I play chalice*4 MD in my aggro loam deck. Turn 1 with no mox diamond, is usually spent with cycling lands.

[Phantom]

Beaters
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Countryside Crusher

Disruption
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Blood Moon

Utility
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Trinisphere

Mana
4 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Seething Song (I might cut these since they are terrible top-decks without a pit dragon in play)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Mountain

Side-Board
4 Pyrokinesis / Arc-Slogger / Pyroclasm (not sure which is best yet)
4 Tormod's Crypt
1 Trinisphere
3 Powder Keg
3 Umezawa's Jitte



This is a bad, bad idea. Crusher and Crucible are ONLY good in this deck together, and since they are both vunerable to all sorts of removal (including the fun Deed two-for-one) that is not a good thing.

I mean, what do you do with Crucible if you don't draw Crusher? (about half the games) or Crusher gets countered, plowed, smothered, bolted, snuffed out, etc? (god only knows how often). We run no manlands. Hell, you don't even run fetches! You can recur buried Cities. Wowza.

I also fail to see how Crusher ends games faster than Slogger. Won't he be a 3/3 most of the time, with the occasional 4/4 and maybe 5/5? (Edit: RTFC:me) He never has trample. He never has evasion (which Slogger has by killing things in its way). And he can never go to the face for 4-10.

This is all based on spec so feel free to post counter arguments.

[nastynate]

This is a bad, bad idea. Crusher and Crucible are ONLY good in this deck together, and since they are both vunerable to all sorts of removal (including the fun Deed two-for-one) that is not a good thing.

They aren't anymore vulnerable than anything else currently in the deck.


I mean, what do you do with Crucible if you don't draw Crusher? (about half the games) or Crusher gets countered, plowed, smothered, bolted, snuffed out, etc? (god only knows how often). We run no manlands. Hell, you don't even run fetches! You can recur buried Cities. Wowza.

Valid point. The only thing crucible does besides recurring cities is to allow you to play lands after resolving crusher. Maybe it isn't needed at all, or maybe I should add something else with crucible synergy like boom / bust or smokestack. I've been looking for a replacement for seething song in this build, since without sloggers and jittes it's much less useful than before. I should probably also consider a switch from chrome mox to mox diamond (given the reduced number of MD red spells for imprinting purposes, and the greater synergy with crucible).


I also fail to see how Crusher ends games faster than Slogger. Won't he be a 3/3 most of the time, with the occasional 4/4 and maybe 5/5? He never has trample. He never has evasion (which Slogger has by killing things in its way). And he can never go to the face for 4-10.

Crusher get's really big, really fast. You only need to flip 2-4 lands for it to become a huge monster. Only pit dragon rivals it in raw damage dealing power. Slogger takes out blockers or burns to the face, and crusher can't, but crusher is bigger than anything that tries to block it, and the longer its around the bigger it gets (unlike slogger). A turn two crusher might remain a 3/3 for the next two turns, but it has gotten as big as 10/10 just as often.


This is all based on spec so feel free to post counter arguments.

No problem at all. I've only just begun to tinker with the idea anyway, but it's been pretty ridiculous in two-fisted testing. Crusher isn't the kind of card that you can just insert into the deck and be good to go, you have to build around it a little bit. I'll keep you guys updated one way or the other (whether the idea blows up in my face or whether it evolves into something worthwhile.)

[Ragnarok]

Crusher might be too slow in this deck, if you want to play crusher you first have to resolve a crucible otherwise you get yourselve screwed. Besides I don't think crusher will grow that big because we play only 18 or 19 lands. I play aggro-loam myself with crusher and even then I experience sometimes the lack of hitting a land-card during my upkeep. Crusher is not like tarmogoyf which you can play in every deck if playing the matching color and if you don't play green then you should splash it for goyf. I think crusher will turn the advantage of dragonstompy into his disadvantage; your speed will be reduced and instead of every card is a threat your are adding more dead-cards. If you really want to test how insane crusher is in a deck for him to fit, just give aggro-loam a try.

[Phantom]

I edited above because apparently I misread Crusher (I thought the bonus was till end of turn). I've been on vacation and missed a lot of the spoilers.

Anyway, I'm still against it in theory. It doesn't work well with our mana base. It doesn't work well without Crucible. It's possible that it is so powerful that we need to re design around it (I doubt it) but sticking it in a deck where it really doesn't fit seems reckless and unnecessary.

[la loutre]

lÔl
first it's nice to see the deck on the "DTB" forum:smile:


i seen so many thing i'd like to answer


-you play a stax deck,stax is the main build/clock of the deck,
the difference between dragon stompy and white stax, is you play 20 kills!
the difference between DS and FS is you play 16 fast stax cards!
because of the actual metagame trini/magus/moon turn 1 it's GG, I don't think the deck will stay when the metagame will turn into monocolor/bicolor aggro deck

all the metagame I know are full of thresh/landstill/combo and some white stax
you got very good MU against those deck, so why playing on MD some useless cards like equipement?

against all aggro monocolored deck you got problems, gobs,weenie white/death and taxes,pox/smallpox/MBA
against those deck you need jitte or sword of xxxx, but if those deck are on the meta,the are in a minority so it's the reason why I run the equip only on SB

-to all people who said the deck is missing of stability:

I answer run a aggro/control 3+ colors!
and if you play equip on MD, you'll have less stability

the deck try to rape the opponent with 2 ways:
-strong metagamed stax tools
-big creatures

add equipment to the main deck is not good because you will loose stability because you NEED a creature to equip it (so when you topdeck an equipment with a poor 2/2 creature on table, it would be certainly raped by goyf',terravore,) so i'd prefer to topdeck a dangerous kill, then you won't be attacked

maybe i'll run a equipement if one day, we can have one, like a sword of XXX with giving a protec green

running 5 equip on MD really makes me laugh,play FS with trinisphere would be the same,and stronger (with counter and draw spell)

-then ,obviously you run mono red, so you got no choice during the game, the only choice you can make is to mull or not, you do it often at 6,maybe 5 against some MU



-crucible of worlds

no!no!no!no!, you don't play wasteland,you don't need this card, really bad idea,you need slot for creatures

-country side crusher

yeah,could be a good card but i think on X2,X3 is really the highest number you can run

I really don't want it on first hand,and on second/third draw too
but coulb be really good on late game (turn 4/5), cause it's won't makes you draw useless-land-cards, could give you the creatures you'll need

-arc-slogger

not running them I think is such a mistake
I won a lot of game by activated him when the next turn of my opponent should be the last of the game. hum?
then if you don't run him you'll really be a bye for goblins.

acually i'm still running 3 keg (against ETW,bridge from B,activated man land,moongooze,tarmo,vial etc....) on MD, and if I had to cut them, I'll certainly include
1) 3 other creatures
2) 3 pillage (yes on MD) vial/vedalken schakles/THE fecthed basic land/ nevy's disk/ jitte/crucible/....
3) then maybe equipment (jitte certainly)



but obviously jitte is such a good SB cards againt all aggro deck, and can steal the game to ichorid and Loam

is anybody ever tryed any splash ?

i mean on G1 your dual land will be all montains

but at G2 is anybody tries to side in some no-red cards and siding out the moon?(krosan grip,against deed and Cop red?)

Please use your shift key for appropriate capitalization. Doing so will make your posts easier to read.

-PR

[Tacosnape]

Regardless of what you think about Countryside Crusher, Crucible of Worlds does not go in this deck, period. This is seriously the absolute worst choice for slots in this deck I have ever seen suggested. On its own, it does absolutely nothing except recur sacrificed City of Traitors. It doesn't pitch to Mox. It's completely useless in multiples. It doesn't kill your opponent, disrupt your opponent, or do anything remotely useful whatsoever.

As for Crusher, I will say this. If you're going to run him, running him with Eight Moons maindeck is absolutely the only way to go, as he's easier to cast with a Moon in play than without one.

However, I think he's weak. He only pumps when you flip lands or sacrifice COT's. Your odds of the top card in your library being a land are perpetually around 1 in 3 (Slightly worse as long as you're drawing average land.) You only run 4 Cities, and if you get a Moon out, you won't be sacrificing them. Therefore despite that he only needs to grow slightly to be badass, I don't think he will grow by 2 as often as he won't.

As for the comment about splashes, this is a bad idea. Our chief method of disruption is centered around Blood Moon. 8 Moons in Dragon Stompy in a random metagame almost ensures you'll go close to .500 in a tournament, which is highly needed given that the deck's inconsistency almost ensures you'll struggle to go better than X-1.

[Androstanolone]

Someone mentioned coal stoker a while back. As much jank as people have suggested and/or actually considered/tested/argued I'm very surprised that this one flew right by. He advances the fundamental DS gameplan without sacrificing card advantage. The gameplan being to dump your hand quickly and effectively. He is very nearly a 3/3 for 1 mana but better in some ways. Not quite a 3/3 for 1 because he doesn't often come out on turn one. Better because he lets you cast him+something+convert 3 mana into RRR. Imagine some of the brutal plays he allows. Besides that, he just fundamentally fits in that he helps get hellbent and he's an "undercosted" beater with only a single R in the CC.

He is competing with some pretty awesome guys, given, I'm just shocked that 0 people responded to the guy that mentioned him.

[zulander]

He's the red priest of gix, only problem is that red doesn't have a dark ritual. Playing a 3/3 turn 2+ seems okay since you get to play a jitte/sofi/moon/morph. Might not be bad on paper doubt it's good in testing though.

[Phantom]

Someone mentioned coal stoker a while back. As much jank as people have suggested and/or actually considered/tested/argued I'm very surprised that this one flew right by. He advances the fundamental DS gameplan without sacrificing card advantage. The gameplan being to dump your hand quickly and effectively. He is very nearly a 3/3 for 1 mana but better in some ways. Not quite a 3/3 for 1 because he doesn't often come out on turn one. Better because he lets you cast him+something+convert 3 mana into RRR. Imagine some of the brutal plays he allows. Besides that, he just fundamentally fits in that he helps get hellbent and he's an "undercosted" beater with only a single R in the CC.

He is competing with some pretty awesome guys, given, I'm just shocked that 0 people responded to the guy that mentioned him.


It's a fairly easy no. If he cost :2::r:, that would be another thing, but we really don't need more 4 drops, and I'll drop Pit Dragon for this guy over my dead body.

Sadly, since he costs 4, but produces 3, he really doesn't allow for any broken plays. I mean, if I had a Trini in my hand, I probably played it last turn. Same goes for Sword or even Gathan Raiders. Basically the only time this guy is acceling you is if your hand is stuffed. Still, I can see him being better than RPD maybe 1/20 times and that's the only spot he can compete for since I'm not upping the curve of the deck any more.

[Zork]

Coal Stoker was only really considered in Empty the Slogger, where he could supplement the first/second turn EtW plan, and even then he was pretty situational.

[Tacosnape]

Coal (No relation to Bram) Stoker should have flavor text on it that contains the web address of the "Danger of Cool Things" article.

Seriously, though? It just doesn't cut it. We're trying to lower the curve, not raise it, and there really isn't room for any threats that don't cost exactly :2::r: or :3: unless they're Rakdos Pit Dragon or Arc-Slogger.

[savemysoul]

lÔl
is anybody ever tryed any splash ?

i mean on G1 your dual land will be all montains

but at G2 is anybody tries to side in some no-red cards and siding out the moon?(krosan grip,against deed and Cop red?)

deed and cop:red are usually played by 3-4 color landstill, so sb-ing moons out
is a big mistake, well allmost all the time deeds are played in a deck filled with non-basic lands, but surely u can try to splash :tongue:

[Tacosnape]

deed and cop:red are usually played by 3-4 color landstill, so sb-ing moons out
is a big mistake, well allmost all the time deeds are played in a deck filled with non-basic lands, but surely u can try to splash :tongue:

As an aside, both of the listed cards are handled by Pithing Needle. This is why Pithing Needle's highly necessary for the sideboard.

[la loutre]

hmm

playing against landstill....

so for needle save you you have to :

first play it on deed
then play it on cop red

without any CotV at 1 (so you allow him to play STP,edict)

against cop red i'd really prefer anarchy

against deed,you need to pray for playing your moon before he fecthed for the basic-colored-mana on board to cast the deed

i'm really not a fan of needle,you already beat belcher,and have anarchy against Cop Red

[Tacosnape]

Where is this entire misconception coming from that 4C Landstill even runs Circle of Protection: Red? I've seen maybe two builds out of twenty running it, and it's heavily a metagame call. Plus, other Landstill builds running COP: Red don't run Deed. So you won't come across this scenario often.

In any case, even if they do, you don't have to Needle both Deed and COP: Red very often. Here's why.

1. If your opponent has Circle of Protection: Red in play, but not a Deed, you can shut them off of Pernicious Deed with Blood Moon or if you're lucky, Magus of the Moon. Then all you have to do is calmly wait to draw into the Needle.

2. If your opponent has the Deed in play but not the COP: Red, Needling the Deed (Which is always the correct choice blind) will buy you enough time to smash face while they hunt the COP: Red.

3. If you shut off 4C Landstill's removal (Swords w/ Chalice 1, Edict by having other creatures out, Needle on Deed) Gathan Raiders can kill through Circle of Protection: Red.

Oh, and also? A lot of Survival builds can smash this deck. Pithing Needle's a great help there too.

[J.V.]

My Hadley report (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8395) 10th out of 36 with Dragon Stompy.

[Silverdragon]

So I scrubbed out at the monthly Legacy tourney in "Speyer" (they changed the location to Hassloch) going 3-3 in the end. Lots of close matches, lots of luck and lots of bad luck.
Round 1 I lost against a UBw control deck with Vedalken Shackles, Shadowmage Infiltrator, Tombstalker and Back to Basics in the sideboard. Of course Back to Basics is close to useless against me but it also means that my opponent plays lots of basics which basically make my Moons useless.
Round 2 I lost against Goblins because I kept a really slow hand game 3 that I should've mulliganed.
Round 3 I won against Goblins because my opponent boarded out Goblin Pyromancer for game 3 which allowed me to kill him one turn before he could kill me.
Round 4 I won against Affinity with Jittes. Turns out 2 Sloggers are better than active Jitte when the opponent is locked under 3Sphere.
Round 5 I played against yet another Goblindeck but this had an interesting twist with Survival of the Fittest tossed in. I won the match thanks to a Dragon flying in for 16 damage.
Round 6 I lost against Survival with Doran because I had to take a mulligan down to 4 game 1 and a mulligan down to 6 in games 2 and 3. I almost pulled off game 1 with a Dragon + Jitte but my opponent found a Shriekmaw the turn before I could kill him and then destroyed me with Shriekmaw recursion. Game 2 wasn't even close as I resolved turn 1 Moon and he was stuck on 2 Bayou for the rest of the game. Game 3 he had a starting hand with Windswept Heath, Swamp, Forest and Doran. Heath fetched basic Plains and down came a turn 3 Doran followed by multiple "3/3" Harbingers that quickly beat me.

The list I played was standard maindeck with 2 Sulfur Elementals, 2 Blood Moons and 2 Trinispheres and the sideboard had 4 Needles, 4 Powder Kegs, 2 Blood Moon, 2 Trinisphere, 2 Tormod's Crypt and 1 Pyroclasm.
I probably should've played a 3/2 split on Pyroclasms and Kegs because Clasms are infinitely better against Goblins but aside from that the deck was ok.

[savemysoul]

I wanna ask if you aggro mulli, if u know you will beat a deck with a first turn magus ?
I played against The Rock and won 4 games but lost 2, where resolving a first or second turn magus was good game. The problem is that i mullid to 5 from solid hands just for the magus lock, and i got a non-land/mana source hand. So I went to four same thing. I ended up with 3 cards : tomb, ssg and pit dragon,
loosing the 3rd game. But if i had kept a hand without moon effect i would have probably scooped to StP & deed (doran, shriekmaw and other goodies). O and I didn`t have needle in hand (I sb 4)

[Phantom]

As a loose rule I usually only do it for really bad matchups, which Rock can fall under. Luckily with 8 moon effects, we don't usually have to go down to 5.

[Tacosnape]

If you aggro mulligan, you're occasionally going to just mulligan yourself into oblivion. This is something you just have to accept, and weigh how often you would have actually won the game if you hadn't done it and had kept a mediocre seven card hand without your auto-win card.

I'm all for aggro-mulliganing if you know what you're playing against and are sure that if you get the card, it will win you the game. This means not doing so against decks that could likely have Force of Will for it, or against decks that pack Thoughtseize and are going first.

[J.V.]

Just wanted to add that Taureen Mauler lives up to the hipe we were giving it for Dragon Stompy. My friend picked me up three at the Morning Tide release they have been amazing!

[theross]

So I just wanted to post a reply here about the Hadley tournament that was held Saturday. I was the dragon stompy player who won but I don't keep notes so I don't have enough to write a full fledged tournament report so I'll post a quick one here along with my thoughts on the deck. This is a little late but I had to leave for school Monday so I was busy with that and I had to actually register with the source as I have just recently gotten into Legacy.

To start here is the list I played:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Mountain

4 Magus of the Moon
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Sulfur Elemental
3 Rakdos Pit Dragon
3 Arc-Slogger
4 Seething Song
2 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Chrome Mox

Sideboard:
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Trinisphere
2 Blood Moon
4 Pyrokinesis
3 Pithing Needle
2 Powder Keg


Quick Recap of my matches

Round 1: R/g Burn
Game 1: I keep a hand with multiple early moon effects but not much else. I get a chalice at 1 down a few turns later but he has 2 Incinerate and Fireblast to finish me off.
Game 2: Not sure but i think it was just multiple early lock pieces followed up with guys, pretty standard win.
Game 3: I get down Chalice at 1 and 2 with Trinisphere but can't find any pressure and he eventually finds grips and tin-streets to break out of the lock. I almost stabilize at 1 after he forgets to sacrifice fanatic in response to a keg but he found another burn spell.

1-2, 0-1

Round 2: Mono White Kithkin/Death and Taxes

I take this one down pretty quickly with early trinispheres backed up with guys. Game 2 I ripped pit-dragon in a stalemate but he rips mangara. I pyrokinesis it the next turn banking on him forgetting about Karakas and he does. He seemed a bit flustered by trinisphere both games as he had just played against stax so he made similar simple mistakes.

2-0, 1-1

Round 3: Cephalid Breakfast (Teammate)

Kind of disappointing, he wanted to ID but I felt it was too early and that 1-2 X-2s would make it in anyway so we played it out.
Game 1: I paris to 5 and keep Tomb, Chalicex2, Jitte, Sword. He goes to 6. My turn 1 chalice for 1 gets there as his six are land, 5 one CC spells. Sometimes we get lucky.
Game 2: Early moon effect and sub-par draws from him lead to an easy win.

2-0, 2-1

Kind of disappointing to have to play a teammate, he ended 9th on breakers after 2 X-2s did make it in. Not his day apparently.

Round 4: Survival (Teammate)

We decide to ID as winning 2 rounds in a row is fine situation and I felt good about my deck.

0-0-1, 2-1-1

Round 5: Alluren (Teammate)

Wow, another teammate, kind of ridiculous. He had an unintentional draw earlier so we had to play it out.

Game 1: I have early moon and trinisphere but almost lose this one when he starts chaining imperial recruiters and I can't find a 3rd land. I find it in time and take it down from there.
Game 2: I have 2x trinisphere, 3x moon effects, and needle and am slowly winning as he tries to see if he can combo. He has enough basics so that he can drop alluren. He then finds stern procter and goes for the kill immediadely holding harpy but he didn't have enough mana. I of course rip chalice for 2 next turn and he can't do much. He had a turn earlier he could've comboed had he therapied correctly for pyrokinesis, disappointing for him but the matchup is pretty rough.

2-0, 3-1-1

Round 6: RGW Loam Control

Game 1: I get down turn 2 Arc Slogger and beat face while he draws green and white land while holding a fistful of red spells.
Game 2: Don't really remember but I get down stuff and win pretty quickly.

2-0, 4-1-1

So I'm in top 8 along with one other teammate, as I knocked the other 3 out in one way or another.

Top 8: UGrw Threshold (Teammate)

Of course, so now I'm batting for the cycle with the four teammates I came with.

Game 1: I have an early moon and he can't do much.
Game 2: He comes out with guys and I stabilize at 6 from ancient tombs with an arc-slogger against his 3/4 goyf. I get down a moon effect next turn but he had double bolt and I hand him the red mana. I'm not sure if I was entirely incorrect as I know he has 4 plows post-board, I wish I remembred more about the situation.
Game 3: I drop stuff and he's not in it for long.

Top4: UGW Threshold

This match is covered well in his tournament report (TrialbyFire) so I'll just direct you to that. The only revision I would make is that in game 2 he got one goyf down but I had a keg on the table at 1 so that one died and we played draw-go for a while after that before he found another goyf and I found still zero gas.

Finals: BGW Doran Aggro

Game 1: I have early disruption with trinisphere and chalice at 1 but he drops a bob and we kind of stalemate for a while before deed wipes the board while I am hellbent and he has like 5 cards. I think I'm done but I rip Arc-Slogger off the top and he is at 7. I have 2 mountains and 2 tombs on the table. He has 4 lands, Windswept Heath, Scrubland, Treetop Village, Forest. He plays eternal witness returning a vindicate. I untap into nothing relevant, slog his witness and beat him to 3. He untaps and sees that he can't fetch because slog kills him and doesn't have the mana to play vindicate and scoops.
Game 2: I think I paris a hand that needed red off the top and got a decent hand that. I drew a seething song off the top so that turn 2 I dropped my hand of morphed gathan raiders, magus of the moon, and chalice i think. He vindicates my raiders and has enough basics so moon does nothing and wins easily from there.
Game 3: I have turn 1 chalice for 1 and he apparently was holding double thoughtseize and a bird and drew like 2 more discard spells, seems good.

So the deck played well the entire day, and I was really happy with the list. All the sideboard cards came in at some point although pyrokinesis didn't do much, not sure if it's better than pyroclasm or not. I particularly like the low curve as you really can't reliably cast arc-sloggers with a moon and drawing multiples is usually dead. I might cut a seething song from the main as I also don't like seeing those in multiples as it forces you to be too aggressive. I feel the deck is powerful enough that you shouldn't need to drop your hand turn 2 to win and that often leads you into situations where the opponent just has an answer or two and you're left playing off the top with no draw. My most common turn 1 play was mountain go and I would start on turn 2 with the disruption.

On the correct number of moons: I definitely think that eight need to be somewhere in your 75 until the metagame shifts to fight it, if it does at all. But running too many main is just asking to get crushed by burn and other budget decks, which many have professed on this forum to be your worst matchup. Seeing two blood moons pre-board is not something I ever want to do so 2 main I think is correct.

On the equipment issue: Running 5-6 equipment led me to the problems of drawing 2-3 in a game and not having that many guys after their disruption. You really only need to see 1 max in a game most of the time so I liked having 4. Jitte is clearly superior to SoFI so I did a 3-1 split so as to avoid drawing too many dead jittes. SoFI is without a doubt better than SoLS or Warhammer. Drawing cards might mess with your hellbent but that doesn't matter when you have 2-3 extra threats, in fact it protects you from that dragon getting removed. The shock ability is also really good against the random aggro decks. The only advantage of SoLS is that pro-white protects froms swords but they can respond to the equip if they have it immediately and you have chalice for 1 so it's not that big of an advantage.

Overall I really like this deck since it is incredibly good against top tier decks, powerful enough to blow decks out, and surprisingly consistent for a chalice aggro deck. Going to six with the deck is not a problem since you have double lands and such. I mulliganed anything that just seemed underwhelming but any hand that has turn 1-3 disruption followed up with 1-3 threats is fine, no matter what they are. Mulliganing for moons seems pointless when your other disruption (chalice, trinisphere, needle in the board) is so flexible.

As for Morningtide, I don't like Crusher at all (in this deck) since you only run like 18 lands. He needs a loam shell to be nuts. Taurean Mauler looks very interesting, and testing 3 of them in place of my maindeck sulfur elementals will be happening soon.

Well, that's a long post, hope you guys enjoy the mini-report and I look forward to working on this deck in the coming months.

[DalkonCledwin]

// Lands
10 [IA] Snow-Covered Mountain
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Gathan Raiders
3 [MR] Arc-Slogger
3 [ON] Tephraderm
4 [DIS] Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
3 [FUT] Magus of the Moon

// Spells
4 [9E] Seething Song
4 [8E] Blood Moon
2 [DS] Trinisphere
2 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 3 [DIS] Demonfire
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [UD] Powder Keg

That is the version of the Dragon Stompy I want to build... any thoughts and opinions on how I might make it better... or anything like that, would be appreciated. I had a hard match against a Threshold deck tonight... lost that match... is it normal to have such hard matches against Threshold?

[Rinello]

What would you remove to put 3 Pyrokinesis maindeck?

I think Pyrokinesis is very solid because it helps Hellbent and clears the board,
maybe it deserves a test....

[la loutre]

why running tephraderm instead of slogger????

slogger give you the game against gobs,the best disrupt against meddling/DC
and a fast kill

pyrokinesis is such a good card on the deck but on SB,you already have easily the hellbent

the best blast on MD is Demonfire, it would rolls on countrol

[savemysoul]

cathal

i would rather run 4 magus and 3 moons than via versa,
and i would loose the 3 tephraderm, cuz of the 7 5cc drops (its hard to cast slogger sometimes). and why not 2 jitte and 1 sofi, jitte seems superior to sofi in aggro/burn matchups. o and i would bump 3sphere to 3 or 4 and slogger to 4.

hope to help you in anyway

[Tacosnape]

What would you remove to put 3 Pyrokinesis maindeck?

Equipment or Trinisphere. Artifact cards don't pitch to Pyrokinesis, and Kinesis has largely the same effect as equipment.


List

That is the version of the Dragon Stompy I want to build... any thoughts and opinions on how I might make it better... or anything like that, would be appreciated. I had a hard match against a Threshold deck tonight... lost that match... is it normal to have such hard matches against Threshold?

First off, Tephraderm sucks. Cut it. Get to four Maguses.

In fact, for anyone considering creatures to run, here's a guide. The answer is an emphatic "no" unless it meets one of three conditions.

1. It's named Rakdos Pit Dragon.
2. It's named Arc-Slogger.
3. It's red and can be played for :2::r: or :3:.

As for Threshold, it's like this. It's normal for Threshold to sometimes be Threshold, win the die roll, cantrip around, Daze everything you try to do, Force everything when they run out of dazes, drop 300 undercosted green guys, and win. This will happen to you occasionally regardless of what deck you're playing.

However, if it doesn't, you should steamroll it. Threshold hates Blood Moon, Magus of the Moon, Chalice, and Trinisphere. Powder Keg, if you run it, eats Mongeese and Goyfs. And your big guys can trade with or outrace their big guys.

[savemysoul]

here is the list i`m currently playing :

lands : 18
4x city of traitors
4x ancient tomb
4x mountains

creatures : 20
4x arc-slogger
4x magus of the moon
4x rakdos pit dragon
4x gathan raiders
4x ssg

spells : 22
4x chrome mox
4x trinisphere
4x CotV
3x seething song
3x blood moon
2x SoFI
2x jitte

sb :

3x powder keg
4x pithing needle
4x tormod`s crypt
4x pyroclasm

i just got 4 tauren maulers and would like to test/run them but i don`t know what to put out. any advice ?
maybe dropping equipments ?

[Phantom]

i just got 4 tauren maulers and would like to test/run them but i don`t know what to put out. any advice ?
maybe dropping equipments ?

I think I would start -1 Sword, -1 Slogger, -1 3Sphere (move it to the side and add another Blood Moon in the side too).

[DalkonCledwin]

I found the mono-colored version of Dragon Stompy to run a little slow, and also to not be capable of dealing with thresh decks as well as I would have liked. Soooo I have with the help of a team mate of mine, designed this R/b version of the deck.

As for the reason I am running Tephraderm instead of Razorcore, it is because I don't like the discard cost of Razorcore. But if someone could reasonably justify this cost to me in a deck that eats its entire hand really fast, I would be more than happy to reconsider my decision.

// Lands
4 [IA] Snow-Covered Mountain
3 [CS] Snow-Covered Swamp
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Gathan Raiders
3 [MR] Arc-Slogger
2 [ON] Tephraderm
4 [DIS] Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide

// Spells
4 [9E] Seething Song
3 [8E] Blood Moon
4 [DS] Trinisphere
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 2 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
SB: 2 [5E] Pyroblast

[Tacosnape]

That list is the most godawful thing I've ever seen. Why would you go to all the trouble to add a color for the sole purpose of replacing Simian Spirit Guide, which is both a mana source and a threat, with Dark Ritual? At least if you're going to splash black run Demon's Jester, who at least gives you some Hellbent synergy.

Additionally, you've made your threat density plummet so much that any sort of deck that runs more than 4 removal spells is going to eat you for breakfast. Additionally, Chalice for 1 now renders four cards in your maindeck useless.

Also, if you find the deck's running too slow, cut Tephraderm. Seriously, he's awful. You don't need big threats beyond Raiders, Pit Dragon, and Slogger, and if you do want additional fat, they just printed Taurean Mauler. If you're still concerned about the speed, cut two Sloggers and run 4 Mauler/Magus/SSG/Raiders/Dragon.

[DalkonCledwin]

That list is the most godawful thing I've ever seen. Why would you go to all the trouble to add a color for the sole purpose of replacing Simian Spirit Guide, which is both a mana source and a threat, with Dark Ritual? At least if you're going to splash black run Demon's Jester, who at least gives you some Hellbent synergy.

Additionally, you've made your threat density plummet so much that any sort of deck that runs more than 4 removal spells is going to eat you for breakfast. Additionally, Chalice for 1 now renders four cards in your maindeck useless.

Also, if you find the deck's running too slow, cut Tephraderm. Seriously, he's awful. You don't need big threats beyond Raiders, Pit Dragon, and Slogger, and if you do want additional fat, they just printed Taurean Mauler. If you're still concerned about the speed, cut two Sloggers and run 4 Mauler/Magus/SSG/Raiders/Dragon.

okay, so how do I win the Dredge Match up, or the thresh match up... assuming I don't splash black?

[Mental]

Don't run Rb Dragon Stompy, run Rb Hellbent Stompy. That deck is at least decent.

4x Rit, 4x Avatar of Discord, 4x Gathan Raiders, 4x of the 1RB guy that makes them discard cards if you have hellbent, all in a Dragon Stompy Shell. It seems strong.

[edgewalker]

okay, so how do I win the Dredge Match up, or the thresh match up... assuming I don't splash black?

I don't know to much about the dredge matchup because I don't play the deck, but I would assume you beat threshold because you're men are usually bigger and Magus of the moon/Blood moon/chalice of the void/trinisphere>Threshold. You have more threats/disruption than they have counters and your deck is impervious to the countertop engine.

EDIT: If you add Mauler, that is yet another deterrent for them to play lots of spells. Since this entire deck tries to stop the opponent from playing spells, he seems to fit nicely.

[DalkonCledwin]

Don't run Rb Dragon Stompy, run Rb Hellbent Stompy. That deck is at least decent.

4x Rit, 4x Avatar of Discord, 4x Gathan Raiders, 4x of the 1RB guy that makes them discard cards if you have hellbent, all in a Dragon Stompy Shell. It seems strong.

say what?

Rit?

1RB guy that makes them discard? Your going to have to be more specific to me...

[Mental]

say what?

Rit?

1RB guy that makes them discard? Your going to have to be more specific to me...

Dark Ritual

Jagged Poppet

also Rakdos Pit Dragon, of course.

I'm not sure about numbers, but it seems worth investigating.

[DalkonCledwin]

I did a search on google for "Hellbent Stompy" and didn't get anything... does anyone know of a sample decklist I could look at?

[Mental]

I did a search on google for "Hellbent Stompy" and didn't get anything... does anyone know of a sample decklist I could look at?

Dude, I just made up the list. I'm just saying that it LOOKS strong, in my head.

I guess a sample list could be (completely untested, of course).

4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Badlands
1x Mountain
1x Swamp

4x Chrome Mox
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Dark Ritual

4x Jagged Poppet
4x Avatar of Discord
4x Rakdos Pit Dragon
4x Gathan Raiders

4x Magus of the Moon
3x Blood Moon

3x Trinisphere
4x Chalice of the Void

SB:
4x Thoughtseize
4x Pyroclasm
4x Leyline of the Void
3x Duress

Comments?

EDIT - Yeah, no Jitte. There isn't room, and right now I feel like the creatures themselves are stronger.

[DalkonCledwin]

// Lands
4 [IA] Snow-Covered Mountain
3 [CS] Snow-Covered Swamp
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Gathan Raiders
4 [DIS] Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 [DIS] Avatar of Discord
4 [DIS] Jagged Poppet
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
3 [FUT] Magus of the Moon

// Spells
4 [8E] Blood Moon
4 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [IA] Dark Ritual
3 [MR] Chalice of the Void
3 [MR] Chrome Mox

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 2 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
SB: 2 [5E] Pyroblast


Thats the version of Hellbent Stompy I think I will try... how does it look?

[J.V.]

i just got 4 tauren maulers and would like to test/run them but i don`t know what to put out. any advice ?
maybe dropping equipments ?
-2 SoFI (or at least switch to SoLS Pro-swords, not losing hellbent, and Life gain are just better in Dragon Stompy)
-1 Trinisphere

[nastynate]

okay, so how do I win the Dredge Match up, or the thresh match up... assuming I don't splash black?

Game one against Ichorid you want chalice of the void set at 1 counter or trinisphere on your first turn; mulligan until you have one or the other, or it's pretty hard to win. Cutting off their flashback spells (aka their zombie token generators) and killing any potential breakthrough or putrid imp (aka their primary discard outlets) with CotV or trinisphere usually slows them down long enough to win (you can easily race recurring ichorids). Post-board you should also have pyroclasm, powder keg, and tormod's crypt, a combination which utterly destroys them.

Against Threshold you want a turn one blood moon / magus of the moon, trinisphere, or chalice of the void set at 1 counter. Any one of these plays slows them down enough so that you should be able to beat them into submission. Post-board you have powder keg to blow up any dudes that slip past your disruption. Threshold is highly favorable already, and I have no idea where you got the idea that this was a difficult match-up.

How does splashing black help in either match-up? Leyline of the void is great and all, but butchering the main deck for a slight upgrade over tormod's crypt is not necessary when you already have favorable match-ups against these decks.

[J.V.]

Game one against Ichorid you want chalice of the void set at 1 counter or trinisphere on your first turn; mulligan until you have one or the other, or it's pretty hard to win. Cutting off their flashback spells (aka their zombie token generators) and killing any potential breakthrough or putrid imp (aka their primary discard outlets) with CotV or trinisphere usually slows them down long enough to win (you can easily race recurring ichorids). Post-board you should also have pyroclasm, powder keg, and tormod's crypt, a combination which utterly destroys them.

Against Threshold you want a turn one blood moon / magus of the moon, trinisphere, or chalice of the void set at 1 counter. Any one of these plays slows them down enough so that you should be able to beat them into submission. Post-board you have powder keg to blow up any dudes that slip past your disruption. Threshold is highly favorable already, and I have no idea where you got the idea that this was a difficult match-up.

How does splashing black help in either match-up? Leyline of the void is great and all, but butchering the main deck for a slight upgrade over tormod's crypt is not necessary when you already have favorable match-ups against these decks.
Also you can of coarse get techy against dredge and kill your own creatures with either Jitte or Slogger and bang out their bridges. And like stated above, Thresh is a bye for Dragon Stompy, you have bigger creatures, Blood/Magus (of the) Moon, Trinisphere, and Chalice... its very hard to lose.

[Mental]

Game one against Ichorid you want chalice of the void set at 1 counter or trinisphere on your first turn; mulligan until you have one or the other, or it's pretty hard to win. Cutting off their flashback spells (aka their zombie token generators) and killing any potential breakthrough or putrid imp (aka their primary discard outlets) with CotV or trinisphere usually slows them down long enough to win (you can easily race recurring ichorids). Post-board you should also have pyroclasm, powder keg, and tormod's crypt, a combination which utterly destroys them.

Against Threshold you want a turn one blood moon / magus of the moon, trinisphere, or chalice of the void set at 1 counter. Any one of these plays slows them down enough so that you should be able to beat them into submission. Post-board you have powder keg to blow up any dudes that slip past your disruption. Threshold is highly favorable already, and I have no idea where you got the idea that this was a difficult match-up.

How does splashing black help in either match-up? Leyline of the void is great and all, but butchering the main deck for a slight upgrade over tormod's crypt is not necessary when you already have favorable match-ups against these decks.

I'm not sure yet. It remains to be tested. All I know is that Jagged Poppet is fucking NUTS in this deck.

[Tacosnape]

okay, so how do I win the Dredge Match up, or the thresh match up... assuming I don't splash black?


Versus Ichorid:

Win the die roll. You can seriously shut them off of every spell ever with either a Blood Moon, a Magus of the Moon, or a Trinisphere, and Chalice comes pretty close. It's very hard to lose this match if you win the die roll, but beating Ichorid when you go second is a challenge. On the play, Chalice for 1 if you don't have any additional disruption coming the next turn (A moon or a 3-sphere), and Chalice for 0 if you do, as no single 1-drop spell they can play is enough to win the game solo, whereas a turn one Lion's Eye Diamond can be.

Postboard, both Pyroclasm and Tormod's Crypt are godsends. Crypt for eating their entire yard, and Pyroclasm for not only killing zombies and Narcomoebas, but more importantly for killing off your own 2/2 guys to eat their Bridges. Resist the temptation to bring in Powder Keg here; it isn't worth your while.

Versus Threshold:
Seriously, if you're not doing at least 66% in this matchup, you're either a terrible player or you have a terrible build. Dragon Stompy is thriving because Threshold is the best deck in the format and Dragon Stompy beats it more consistently than any deck in the format except possibly Ichorid. Chalice hurts them. Blood Moon hurts them. Trinisphere hurts them some. Even Jitte hurts them a little in a threat-versus-threat war. All of your guys are huge and eat all of their guys for breakfast except Tarmogoyf, and Pit Dragon and Slogger can trade with or outrace Goyf singlehandedly. You're virtually immune to Counterbalance. And you'll win abut a third of the games you go first just from a ridiculous drop on your first turn. That, or Threshold will have to aggressively mulligan for Force, which is insane advantage for you.

By the way, for everyone running Powder Keg, I'd stop. They just generally suck. You don't need them to beat Threshold. I've replaced them in my board completely for a little bit of secret tech.

[Rinello]

ok, we agree.
so, here's my list, with 3 pyro maindeck to make a TEST.


MANA:

10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 SSG
4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song
---

LOCK:
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Magus of the Moon
3 Blood Moon
0 TRINISPHERE
---

WIN:
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Gathan Raiders
3 Arcslogger
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Umezawa Jitte
1 Sword of Fire & Ice
3 PYROKINESIS
--------------------------
Sideboard:
4 Crypt
3 Pithing Needle
2 Powder Keg
1 Blood Moon
4 Trinisphere
1 ???


-----

Pros:

-Pyrokinesis MD has sinergy with Hellbent
-3 Blood Moon MD
-Easier Chrome Mox pitch
-Removal and Finisher
-Trinisphere slows Jitte
-Better than Demonfire

Cons:

-Jitte is a Win Condition and we don't draw so 3>2
-Trinisphere can win game 1 and make your opponent go crazy as a come_into_play effect, Pyrokinesis can't.
-I LOVED the balance between Trinisphere and Blood Moon split (2/2 each)
-Sideboard now sucks.

----------------------------

So basically I love the board controll option and burn finisher hellbent friendly that Pyrokinesis can give, but I miss the balance between Sideboard and Maindeck that Trinisphere and Blood Moon had.


PS:
what if I put 2 sulfur elemental SB, restore the 2/2 Blood Moon/Trinisphere balance and 3 Jitte, and use 3 Pyrokinesis?
I'd have the same number of red cards and get rid of a card with a very little sinergy..

[ninjabear]

Everyone is OK with the inclusion of Icefall instead of Pillage? Do you really get to recover Icefall that much times?

[savemysoul]

As for the reason I am running Tephraderm instead of Razorcore, it is because I don't like the discard cost of Razorcore. But if someone could reasonably justify this cost to me in a deck that eats its entire hand really fast, I would be more than happy to reconsider my decision.



nobody runs razorcore ? tephraderm generaly suxs + makes a much higher mana curve and with 8 moon effect in your deck its really hard to cast them. i`ve played against thresh a lot and moon, chalice@1,2, 3sphere, after side powder keg (1 for mongoose 2 for goyf), torm. crypt, pithing needle(for balancetop builds) makes this match post-board favorable.

ninjabear : i don`t think anybody plays pillage, somebody gave the idea some posts back, but if i would play LD i would go with pillage, icefall is really the same just for 4 mana, you dont want to recover cuz it fucks up you hellbent and with 6 mana that isn`t really possible unless in a really flooded game

[NecroYawgmoth]

hmmm, has anyone of you problems with playing 4 Sloggers???

I often think 4 are too much, because sometimes you draw one, and then you loose Hellbent because you can't play him for 2 or 3 Rounds...

I prefer to play 3.

Any opinions about that?

[Zork]

-Removal and Finisher


Just a note: Pyrokinesis can't go to the dome. It's creatures only.

As for thresh being a bye, I think it really depends on what thresh you are playing against. If they play white, swords can often just beat you, especially since any white thresh player is going to use their counters on your Chalice for 1. Red and black are much easier.

[Rinello]

Just a note: Pyrokinesis can't go to the dome. It's creatures only.

As for thresh being a bye, I think it really depends on what thresh you are playing against. If they play white, swords can often just beat you, especially since any white thresh player is going to use their counters on your Chalice for 1. Red and black are much easier.

d'oh. :eek:
ok I'll stick 3 x in my sideboard and remove demonfire and 1 crypt.

I think I'll use 3 trini Maindeck and get rid of Razormane Masticore..

[savemysoul]

i think red thrash is the thoughest because they can still bolt-fire/ice you
usually first turn magus is gg, but agains red they just bolt it and save theyr counter for blood/chalice

[Shawon]

Has anyone tested Taurean Mauler yet? Yeah, I heard people say that it could be good, but is there anyone that says that it's actually good, or bad? I'd test Dragon Stompy myself if I could, but I never take my laptop to school after break (too distracting).

[Tacosnape]

Has anyone tested Taurean Mauler yet? Yeah, I heard people say that it could be good, but is there anyone that says that it's actually good, or bad? I'd test Dragon Stompy myself if I could, but I never take my laptop to school after break (too distracting).

Yes, we have tested Taurean Mauler. It's #6 on the threat list, meaning it's your sixth choice to include. The Threat List is as follows.

1. Gathan Raiders
2. Rakdos Pit Dragon
3. Magus of the Moon
4. Simian Spirit Guide
5. Arc-Slogger
6. Taurean Mauler

As the first four are automatic 4-ofs, Mauler only gets slots if you run over 20 creatures or less than 4 Sloggers maindeck, either of which is feasible.


As for thresh being a bye, I think it really depends on what thresh you are playing against. If they play white, swords can often just beat you, especially since any white thresh player is going to use their counters on your Chalice for 1. Red and black are much easier.

Thresh isn't a bye, because sometimes it'll just be Thresh and be like Daze/Daze/Force/300 Tarmogoyfs/I win, but it's heavily favored. Even STP doesn't help if they don't have the white mana to cast it.


Everyone is OK with the inclusion of Icefall instead of Pillage? Do you really get to recover Icefall that much times?

There is absolutely no reason to run either one. Both are underwhelming and hard to cast.


nobody runs razorcore ? tephraderm generaly suxs + makes a much higher mana curve and with 8 moon effect in your deck its really hard to cast them. i`ve played against thresh a lot and moon, chalice@1,2, 3sphere, after side powder keg (1 for mongoose 2 for goyf), torm. crypt, pithing needle(for balancetop builds) makes this match post-board favorable.

Razormane Masticore, despite that I initially loved him, was made obsolete by the printing of Gathan Raiders, which made keeping Hellbent crucially important for the deck. Note that if you hit Hellbent, your Razormane dies next turn, making Razor/Pit Dragon or Razor/Raiders a bad pair to have on the board. Slogger's the only 5-drop you need.


hmmm, has anyone of you problems with playing 4 Sloggers???

I often think 4 are too much, because sometimes you draw one, and then you loose Hellbent because you can't play him for 2 or 3 Rounds...

I prefer to play 3.

Any opinions about that?

This does happen. I've tinkered with three or even 2 and 4 Maulers. I think it's an acceptable choice. I personally still play with four Sloggers given how insane they are, though. (Edited to clarify meaning.)

[moOnsteak]

Yes, we have tested Taurean Mauler. It's #6 on the threat list, meaning it's your sixth choice to include. The Threat List is as follows.

1. Gathan Raiders
2. Rakdos Pit Dragon
3. Magus of the Moon
4. Simian Spirit Guide
5. Arc-Slogger
6. Taurean Mauler

As the first four are automatic 4-ofs, Mauler only gets slots if you run over 20 creatures or less than 4 Sloggers maindeck, either of which is feasible.

I really agree with this statement. .the 1st 4 is a must and 3 Arc-Slogger will be a right number in my opinion. .so I can run 2 Mauler in replacement of 1 Demon's Fire and 1 Slogger. .


This does happen. I've tinkered with three or even 2 and 4 Maulers. I think it's an acceptable choice. I personally still play with four given how insane it is, though.

Can you give more details about Mauler's insane performance??
Cause in my testing, unless casted in 1st or 2nd turn. .Mauler is really mediocre. .thanks for sharing anyway :smile:

*I hope Wizard release a red creature. .:2::r:. .good abilities. .and shroud. .cause StP is really annoying. .*

[J.V.]

Yes, we have tested Taurean Mauler. It's #6 on the threat list, meaning it's your sixth choice to include. The Threat List is as follows.

1. Gathan Raiders
2. Rakdos Pit Dragon
3. Magus of the Moon
4. Simian Spirit Guide
5. Arc-Slogger
6. Taurean Mauler

As the first four are automatic 4-ofs, Mauler only gets slots if you run over 20 creatures or less than 4 Sloggers maindeck, either of which is feasible.

To add to this, My build runs:
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Arc-Slogger
3 Taurean Mauler

*I hope Wizard release a red creature. .:2::r:. .good abilities. .and shroud. .cause StP is really annoying. .*
Sword of Light and Shadow=Pro StP

[moOnsteak]

Sword of Light and Shadow=Pro StP

But not before equipped. .I mean for some of Troll Ascetic abilities :tongue:

Anyone have experience how big your Mauler will be?

[theross]

I would tend to agree with the given "threat list" as gathan raiders is really strong. However, I don't think he necessitates that you go out of your way to be hellbent. If you have strong lockpieces on the board, you can attack for 3-5 a turn with 1-2 guys on the table since that is a perfectly fine clock. Given the option to keep a possible extra threat in my hand or pitch it to gain hellbent and increase my clock by 1-2 turns I will always keep the extra threat in my hand. Doing so doesn't leave you open to ketting destroyed by STP or other removal being topdecked by your opponent. This is why I see Taurean Mauler as having a lot of potential in this deck since it's only really underhwelming when it's a 2/2 and in that situation you have won the game (except maybe against dredge). Otherwise he is a threat that doesn't necessitate the loss of card advantage to maximally use.
Using similar logic, I will always choose to play SoFI over SoLS unless white and black removal spells become the overwhelming choice in the metagame. Having more threats in your hand is always better than having a slightly better threat on the board because of the power of the defensive spells in this format.

[Tacosnape]

Can you give more details about Mauler's insane performance??
Cause in my testing, unless casted in 1st or 2nd turn. .Mauler is really mediocre. .thanks for sharing anyway :smile:

I really should have worded my statement better, in hindsight. I meant to imply that I still run 4 Arc-Sloggers based on how insane it is.

Taurean Mauler's good, don't get me wrong. And I think if you fear the Slog Clog (Which is my name for the phenomenon of topdecking a Slogger you can't play and ruining your Hellbent), cutting down to 2 or 3 Sloggers for Mauler's the right choice. However, I'm still with the quad Sloggers for now.

EDIT: It's worth noting that I'm tinkering with a Sloggerless, Seething Songless version with 4 Maulers, but so far I'm underwhelmed. Slogger's too good. The build is more consistent, however, due in large part to a Mountain count of 12.

[Maveric78f]

And countryside crusher? His topdecking ability is really interesting in addition to be a big beef.

[Tacosnape]

And countryside crusher? His topdecking ability is really interesting in addition to be a big beef.

Again, Crusher's a fantastic card, and he's going to probably propel Aggro Loam into serious contender status. But he's not the right guy for this deck. The double red makes casting him consistently too reliant on having a Moon in play, and we only run 18 land, so he's only going to grow a little less than once every three turns. That makes him small compared to the other guys on the list.

Furthermore, when the topdecking comes into play the most is against control decks, where if Moon can't lock them down, we need more threats than they have removal. The problem with this is that if Countryside Crusher stays in play to do his ability, we've already succeeded in having more threats than they have removal, and therefore we'd be better off with a big guy who's more likely to finish the game off quickly, like Pit Dragon, Raiders, or Slogger. You also have to be careful you don't lock yourself out of mana with Crusher, as playing him too early puts you a Sinkhole/Vindicate away from disaster.

[nastynate]

And countryside crusher? His topdecking ability is really interesting in addition to be a big beef.

I tinkered with him quite a bit trying to force him to fit, but the dragon stompy shell is far from the best home for him. Sometimes you want to top-deck lands with this deck (maintaining hellbent) instead of something uncastable due to missed land drops. Basically dragon stompy isn't really any better with him than it is now.

Crusher works quite well, however, if you remove sloggers, hellbent creatures, and equipment, and run a suite of stax-like disruption (crucible of worlds, smokestack, boom // bust, sphere of resistance, etc), but that's a completely different deck (basically mono-red prison w/ 8 moons). It's also certainly debatable when talking about crusher whether a stax shell has any major benefit over a loam shell.

[jamest]

Here's my current decklist:

4 Tomb
4 City
12 Mountain
4 Mox
4 SSG

4 Magus
4 Raiders
4 Rakdos
4 Slogger

4 Chalice
3 Trinisphere
3 Moon
2 Jitte

4 Street Wraith

SB
4 Needle
4 Crypt
4 Rolling Earthquake
1 Moon
1 Trinisphere
1 Jitte

I agree with a lot of the things said above. I kept trying to replace Slogger, but I still like it best. Some other creatures I tested were Dragon Whelp and Juggernaut. I really don't like Seething Song. This deck wants to get to 3cc and SS doesn't help with that. I tested Lotus Petal but I felt it made the deck too mana heavy. I didn't like any of the candidates, so I've been going with Street Wraith lately. It hurts our mulligan ability but despite that, I felt it was more useful than other candidates (acceleration, creatures) overall.

[moOnsteak]

I agree with a lot of the things said above. I kept trying to replace Slogger, but I still like it best. Some other creatures I tested were Dragon Whelp and Juggernaut. I really don't like Seething Song. This deck wants to get to 3cc and SS doesn't help with that. I tested Lotus Petal but I felt it made the deck too mana heavy. I didn't like any of the candidates, so I've been going with Street Wraith lately. It hurts our mulligan ability but despite that, I felt it was more useful than other candidates (acceleration, creatures) overall.

Running Slogger without Seething Song? I think it's a brave step. .
Slogger's :3::r::r: will be harder to cover without it. .
Also Seething Song helps you getting hellbent and will be a bomb when you have an attacking hellbent Rakdos Pit-Dragon. .so I don't find any reason to remove it from list. .

I agree Lotus Petal doesn't needed as long as we have enough mana accel. .

Street Wraith is a good card. .I love it but only if I have empty slot and till now I don't have it. .as you said, once this deck runs only 3cc creatures, there's time to Street Wraith come in, but not before it. .

[Phantom]

Street Wraith. Ugh. The LAST thing this deck needs is more mulligans!

[Tacosnape]

Street Wraith. Ugh. The LAST thing this deck needs is more mulligans!

QFT. Wraith is an awful idea.

I don't advocate cutting Seething Song. Song is too broken with Pit Dragon, Slogger, Jitte/Equip, Sofi/Equip, or general turn 1-2 asshattery involving dropping 2 permanents in one swoop.

Dragon Stompy relies heavily on its incredibly explosive aggressive starts to win matches when its disruption pieces can't. Song is a very important part of that. Dragon Stompy, while in need of consistency that Song can't provide, can't afford to pursue such consistency at the expense of power.

[Shawon]

Has Taste for Mayhem been discussed? It has the advantage of instant gratification over Equip, and the hellbent is nice, but I'm not sure if it makes the cut as it doesn't mix well with Chalice. Thoughts?

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Too small of an effect for the card disadvantage from Chalice and removal on targeted creatures. All of the three possible equipments provide some sort of card advantage, though removal, card drawing, and recursion.

[DalkonCledwin]

// Lands
11 [IA] Snow-Covered Mountain
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Gathan Raiders
2 [MR] Arc-Slogger
4 [DIS] Rakdos Pit Dragon
3 [MOR] Taurean Mauler
3 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide

// Spells
4 [9E] Seething Song
4 [8E] Blood Moon
4 [DS] Trinisphere
1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 [10E] Pyroclasm
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [UD] Powder Keg
SB: 3 [PS] Flametongue Kavu

After some debating I have decided to give up on Hellbent Stompy, as it seemed not to be working out to well. I will be going back to just plain Dragon Stompy. However I want people's opinions on how this deck build looks?

I much prefer Leyline of the Void over Tormod's Crypt, as it is hard for a person to shut it down with Chalice of the Void... however I realize that Leyline of the Void is probably not the most playable card in this deck. So I was wondering whether it is worth it, or if I should go with Tormod's Crypt just for the hell of it?

I decided to run Mauler over Razormane Masticore, as it is a method of shutting down peoples spells a little bit at a time. However it is more of a soft lock than a full on hard lock.

Other than that, I am running a full compliment of Trinisphere in the main deck just because it is so powerful. Sword of Fire and Ice has been relagated to a one of. However I am willing to consider switching the make up of the deck a little bit so that I am running 3 Trinisphere and 2 Sword's of Fire and Ice or 1 Sword and 1 Jitte, or something like that. But I want at least 3 Trinisphere main decked, as I think they eat the format.

[Afro]

// Lands
11 [IA] Snow-Covered Mountain
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Gathan Raiders
2 [MR] Arc-Slogger
4 [DIS] Rakdos Pit Dragon
3 [MOR] Taurean Mauler
3 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide

// Spells
4 [9E] Seething Song
4 [8E] Blood Moon
4 [DS] Trinisphere
1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 [10E] Pyroclasm
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [UD] Powder Keg
SB: 3 [PS] Flametongue Kavu

After some debating I have decided to give up on Hellbent Stompy, as it seemed not to be working out to well. I will be going back to just plain Dragon Stompy. However I want people's opinions on how this deck build looks?

I much prefer Leyline of the Void over Tormod's Crypt, as it is hard for a person to shut it down with Chalice of the Void... however I realize that Leyline of the Void is probably not the most playable card in this deck. So I was wondering whether it is worth it, or if I should go with Tormod's Crypt just for the hell of it?

I decided to run Mauler over Razormane Masticore, as it is a method of shutting down peoples spells a little bit at a time. However it is more of a soft lock than a full on hard lock.

Other than that, I am running a full compliment of Trinisphere in the main deck just because it is so powerful. Sword of Fire and Ice has been relagated to a one of. However I am willing to consider switching the make up of the deck a little bit so that I am running 3 Trinisphere and 2 Sword's of Fire and Ice or 1 Sword and 1 Jitte, or something like that. But I want at least 3 Trinisphere main decked, as I think they eat the format.

I have to say that I don't like it that your main deck is lacking Jitte. I can't stress enough how many times that card has saved me in an aggro match up because of the life gain. Quick beats plus tomb damage is bad news for this deck if you can't get a lock piece down quick or first turn Slogger.

[Tacosnape]

Leyline is an awful idea in Dragon Stompy, despite it being generally more powerful than Crypt. This is in large part because if you topdeck it at any point during a game, you just screwed yourself out of Hellbent for either the rest of the game or until you draw a Gathan Raiders.

[theross]

Leyline just also adds to your general inconsistency. In a deck that really wants to win against ichorid by locking it out, leyline works well. It's also better than crypt in a deck that can reliably cast it, although that seems pretty obvious. All Dragon Stompy needs to do is stall out Ichorid for a few turns and crypt does exactly that. With those extra turns, racing dredge is not very hard. Even the threat of crypt forces them to play slow enough that racing them is not too hard.

[jamest]

Street Wraith. Ugh. The LAST thing this deck needs is more mulligans!
In my build, Street Wraith replaced Seething Song, which doesn't really help with mulligans either. Notice Taco wrote "consistency that Song can't provide".


Dragon Stompy relies heavily on its incredibly explosive aggressive starts to win matches when its disruption pieces can't.
Sometimes, Seething Song is great. Other times, I wished it were a creature or disruption or land instead. Right now, based on my testing, I feel the deck needs less mana acceleration and more other stuff, which is what Street provides.


Dragon Stompy ... can't afford to pursue such consistency at the expense of power.
To me, Street Wraith increases the power of the deck by concentrating our best 56 cards.

[Tacosnape]

In my build, Street Wraith replaced Seething Song, which doesn't really help with mulligans either. Notice Taco wrote "consistency that Song can't provide".

That doesn't mean you shouldn't run an inconsistent card. If you're afraid to run inconsistent decks, you shouldn't be picking up anything that isn't named Threshold, much less any Chalice Aggro variant.

Black Lotus, for example, decreases the consistency of a deck. It does so because it provides a one-shot boost to your mana at the expense of a card. It will not kill your opponent, and it will not assist you in doing so beyond those three mana. So if your hand were 1 Land, 1 Lotus, and a hand full of things that cost 2 mana, you'd have a pretty explosive turn one, but if that turn one were stopped, you'd be screwed if you didn't draw another land. Consequently, if you had two land and a hand full of things you could cast for 2 mana, your hand would be more consistent.

Yet, you'd run Black Lotus if Legacy rules allowed it. You'd be insane not to. To further expound on this point, imagine something existed that cost :r:, was a Sorcery, and said "Flip a Coin. If you win the flip, you win the game." This is not a consistent card in the slightest, yet who on earth wouldn't run it? The power level if it succeeds is immense.

The point of this is that consistency does not equal power and should be weighed accordingly. Seething Song provides a level of power the deck doesn't have otherwise, from insane turn one Sloggers that singlehandedly roll Goblins, to turn two kills with Pit Dragons, to being able to drop a Chalice for 1 and a Threat in the same first turn, or whatever the case may be.


Sometimes, Seething Song is great. Other times, I wished it were a creature or disruption or land instead. Right now, based on my testing, I feel the deck needs less mana acceleration and more other stuff, which is what Street provides.

To me, Street Wraith increases the power of the deck by concentrating our best 56 cards.

Street Wraith provides none of what you say.

First of all, Street Wraith is not a free card. It's a card that costs 2 life. Your life total is a resource, one that you are already pushing the limits of exploiting with Ancient Tomb, which can deal 8+ damage to you in a single game. Additionally, many of your games come down to damage races. You can't afford the 2 life.

Secondly, you don't get to pick what other card you're drawing into. If you need a land, it'll get you one about one out of three times. If you need a threat, ditto, about one out of three. If you need a disruption piece, a little less.

Third, you lose the raw power of Song.

Fourth, and most importantly, Street Wraith impairs your mulliganing decisions, because you can't know what card it will provide until after you've made your decision.

Careful manipulation of your mana sources will ensure you're rarely awash with them. Seething Song and SSG both imprint on Chrome Mox in a pinch, and any mana source pitches to flip Gathan Raiders. I'm inclined strongly to believe that any problems you may encounter with having too much mana is based heavily on poor play choices in this regard. I find the deck to actually be mana short far more often than mana heavy. There will of course be games where you just get flooded with bad topdecks, but that's the price you pay for playing Chalice Aggro.

Chalice Aggro is incredible raw power at the expense of consistency. If you're going to sabotage the power level more than you increase the consistency, you might as well pick up Threshold.

[jamest]

That doesn't mean you shouldn't run an inconsistent card...
Your discussion about consistency vs power is interesting, but it wasn't my point. My point is that Seething Song and Street Wraith aren't in the deck to help with mulligan decisions. Neither card really helps accelerate you to 3 mana. (Obviously both can still serve a minor role i.e. Song can imprint onto Mox and Street can draw into something.) There is much discussion on the mulligan-hampering aspect of Street, yet Song hardly helps in that regard.


Street Wraith provides none of what you say ... you don't get to pick what other card you're drawing into ... you can't know what card it will provide until after you've made your decision.
Street Wraith is a card whose merits are probabilistic. For example, if your hand doesn't need more acceleration, would you rather have another piece of acceleration or a random card? Sure, Street might draw you into more acceleration, but, chances are, the random card is better than Song.


I'm inclined strongly to believe that any problems you may encounter with having too much mana is based heavily on poor play choices in this regard...
...


If you're going to sabotage the power level more than you increase the consistency, you might as well pick up Threshold.
To me, the reason to play this deck does not lie in "consistency vs power". I can make the deck more consistent and still have a favorable matchup against Threshold.

[J.V.]

Alright whats with this crap people are saying? Coming from someone who has played Dragon Stompy since Flash got banned, Thresh took over and MoTM was legal DON'T ever drop Seething Songs!!! Like Taco was saying, although Seething Song makes DS a little inconsistent the ridiculous power it gives the deck far outweighs it. Why would you ever want to drop the card that allows you to open the game up with a turn 1 opponent scoop?

[DalkonCledwin]

okay thanks everyone I will switch to Crypt for now test it out and see how it does.

[theross]

In my admittedly limited experience with the deck, seething song was actually underwhelming and I freuently boarded out one of them since I never wanted to see them in multiples. The one game I had two of them I dropped my hand turn 2 and then lost the game to a vindicate. While I hardly had the best threats to drop that turn (I dropped SSG, a morphed raiders, and a pithing needle on deed), I would've needed pit-dragon and morph to have a chance.

The power of this deck does not primarily lie in the threats but in the disruption pieces. While you may occasionally blow people out with pit-dragon or slogger, those games happen so infrequently that making deck building decisions in an attempt to maximize them will not yield the best results. More games are won by completely blowing your opponent out with some combination of trinispheres, chalices, and blood moon effects and attacking over four or so turns. As such, I feel seething song forces you into too many hands that simply plop down some stuff and asks your opponent, "Can you beat this?" These situations rarely work out well, especially in more powerful formats which contain much better defensive spells than closed formats like standard or block.

Saying this, I still feel Seething Song belongs in the deck because it aids in casting your larger spells, which is necessary sometimes to simply get a threat on the board. However, I truly feel that three is the correct number to play. Just because Chalice Aggro is inconsistent in general does not mean we should not aim to shore up this major weakness in the deck as best we can. If we didn't than there might as well be only 2 decks, the completely consistent but not as powerful (Threshold) versus the overly powerful but not consistent (Belcher I guess?).

[raharu]

I see a startling lack of Rite of Flame in some of the deck lists. I've searched the thread and I didn't find any significant discussion of it. I simply wonder why it hasn'e been discused/ if it has, why is it not used? The explosive quality of Rite of Flame could quite easily lead into some potentially incredible plays without impacting the consistancy too much.

[DalkonCledwin]

I see a startling lack of Rite of Flame in some of the deck lists. I've searched the thread and I didn't find any significant discussion of it. I simply wonder why it hasn'e been discused/ if it has, why is it not used? The explosive quality of Rite of Flame could quite easily lead into some potentially incredible plays without impacting the consistancy too much.

I think its primarily because of it being a one cc card for a usual gain of between 2 and 5 mana... when you think about it, if Trinisphere is in play... 5 mana for 3 cc is already achieved by Seething Song... however anything less than 5 mana for 3 cc, is really an underwhelming scenerio. Which I believe is probably why Rite of Flame is not run in this deck.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

It doesn't play well with Chalice and doesn't proved too much of a boost. Simian Spirit Guide nets the same amount of mana, dodges Chalice, and can beat/block in a pinch. The deck doesn't need that many mana spells.

[Tacosnape]

@raharu: Rite of Flame + Chalice = not a combo. And as Sanguine pointed out, Simian Spirit Guide nets you the same mana boost (Unless you have one in the yard), is uncounterable, and picks up equipment to beat face. Song is right in our curve and nets two mana instead of one, although Rite of Flame would help alleviate the amount of "Mountain, Go" plays we had to make. If the deck had another strong 2-drop besides Chalice (Turn one Jitte, while plausible, is not a power play) then Rite might be considered, but at the moment the deck lacks such a 2-drop.

@theross: What you say makes some sense. I'm not saying Seething Song should never be contemplated to be cut. I was merely making the point that consistency didn't equal power. As for 3 Seething Songs, I can see this. 11 Mountains / 3 Songs is a feasible concept (I assume this is what you're replacing the Song with? Or no?) However, I don't feel the same about hitting them in multiples. I don't always mind hitting them in multiples, as they imprint on Moxes, flip Raiders, pump Dragons and Sloggers, and sometimes I just flat out need seven mana to do something ridiculous. I tend to favor Jan's opinion in that Song is powerful.

Anyway, on another subject, after more and more testing, I'm coming to strongly believe that Trinisphere needs to move over to the sideboard. 20 threats has not been making the cut when I'm forced to occasionally pitch them or imprint them on Chrome Moxes for mana, and I'm losing far more games to Trinisphere than I'm winning with it. Also, Trinisphere's just giving purpose to all those nonbasic lands you happily turned into Mountains. Even against Threshold I find Trinisphere isn't wreaking as much havoc as Blood Moon and Chalice of the Void are.

I'm certain there are metagames where moving Trinisphere to the board would be a mistake, namely those inhabited by people named Bryant Cook. However, I feel that another threat would do more to pull its weight. At the moment I'm back to tinkering with Sulfur Elemental IRL, as I don't have my hands on a set of Maulers yet.

[raharu]

Really, I know that Chalice + Rite = fail, but Rite of Flame would increase the amount of opening plays where your deck simply gives you the god-hand and your deck goes BANG!!! Mountian-> RIte-> Rite is exactly as explosive as Seething Song, but without havind to pitch for Moxen... Worst comes to worst, it pitches to Raiders, Chrome Mox/ other discard outlets. Hmmm... I'm not so sure the deck as it stands could use it though... I'll keep it in mind.

EDIT: has anyone tried Mages' Contest for the TES/ Storm combo matchup? Just throwing it out there...

[moOnsteak]

Really, I know that Chalice + Rite = fail, but Rite of Flame would increase the amount of opening plays where your deck simply gives you the god-hand and your deck goes BANG!!! Mountian-> RIte-> Rite is exactly as explosive as Seething Song, but without havind to pitch for Moxen... Worst comes to worst, it pitches to Raiders, Chrome Mox/ other discard outlets. Hmmm... I'm not so sure the deck as it stands could use it though... I'll keep it in mind.

EDIT: has anyone tried Mages' Contest for the TES/ Storm combo matchup? Just throwing it out there...

Against almost decks in Legacy, Chalice@1 is more favorable to come first rather than :2: land: + Mox + Seething Song = Something. .even Trinisphere will be chosen against some decks. .because something can simply tricked with some 1cc spells as StP or the others and become a reckless move. .
Because of that reason, playing rite of flame before Chalice @1 / Sphere is rare and make rite won't be worthed enough to come. .and don't forget, mountain + only 1 rite of flame on the 1st turn almost nothing. .

Reply to-EDIT : This deck has a super powerful matchup against TES with Chalice and Trinisphere so it don't need another board. .

[Rinello]

Anyway, on another subject, after more and more testing, I'm coming to strongly believe that Trinisphere needs to move over to the sideboard. 20 threats has not been making the cut when I'm forced to occasionally pitch them or imprint them on Chrome Moxes for mana, and I'm losing far more games to Trinisphere than I'm winning with it. Also, Trinisphere's just giving purpose to all those nonbasic lands you happily turned into Mountains. Even against Threshold I find Trinisphere isn't wreaking as much havoc as Blood Moon and Chalice of the Void are.

110% agree.

I'll test with 2-3 Pyrokinesis to help Hellbent and Mox Chrome (and remove chumpblockers to win faster)

Taco, what do you think of Pyrokinesis? thanks.

[Tacosnape]

Taco, what do you think of Pyrokinesis? thanks.

My problem with Pyrokinesis is that roughly a third of the time varying on the number of Pyro/threats you actually run, you're pitching a threat to it, and in matches where I want to use Pyrokinesis to kill stuff, I generally want more threats. The exception to this rule would be creature-based combo decks like Cephalid Breakfast, where Pyrokinesis can serve as disruption. This (And Empty the Warrens) are a large part of why I run Pyroclasm over Pyrokinesis.

However, if there were no Trinispheres and possibly no Jittes main, I could see it being included in a 22-threat, 4 Moon, 4 Chalice, 4 Pyrokinesis shell. This would allow for decent threat consistency and a high red card count, as well as incredibly explosive Hellbent draw and the ability to pitch Pyrokinesis to other Pyrokinesis if necessary. I don't disqualify Pyrokinesis from being run because, much like Chalice and Moon, it's fantastic when it's good and terrible when it's bad.

The other problem with Pyrokinesis maindeck is that if your opponent doesn't have a target, the Hellbent boost it's supposed to provide is actually going to backfire on you, although I suppose you can always Pyrokinesis your own Gathan Raiders and have it live.

[moOnsteak]

I see Jon Daily's list which bring him to the top 2 (or even 1st place) in latest tournament result. .
He brings Akroma, Angel of Fury. .what do you all think about this lady? Is she hot?

*congratulation Mr Daily for a great finish*

[theross]

If you're flipping Akroma at 6 mana then something has probably gone wrong. This deck has trouble casting Arc-Slogger at 5 so this does not seem very good. Inconsistency is the main problem we are trying to work out in the deck currently and adding Akroma merely exacerbates that problem.

[DalkonCledwin]

I see Jon Daily's list which bring him to the top 2 (or even 1st place) in latest tournament result. .
He brings Akroma, Angel of Fury. .what do you all think about this lady? Is she hot?

*congratulation Mr Daily for a great finish*

does anyone have a deck list for this akroma using dragon stompy deck? I have a friend who uses akroma in his deck list and I am potentially going to be getting that deck off of him, but I forgot to ask him for the deck list, so I was hoping to see a similar deck list...

[Rinello]

My problem with Pyrokinesis is that roughly a third of the time varying on the number of Pyro/threats you actually run, you're pitching a threat to it, and in matches where I want to use Pyrokinesis to kill stuff, I generally want more threats. The exception to this rule would be creature-based combo decks like Cephalid Breakfast, where Pyrokinesis can serve as disruption. This (And Empty the Warrens) are a large part of why I run Pyroclasm over Pyrokinesis.

However, if there were no Trinispheres and possibly no Jittes main, I could see it being included in a 22-threat, 4 Moon, 4 Chalice, 4 Pyrokinesis shell. This would allow for decent threat consistency and a high red card count, as well as incredibly explosive Hellbent draw and the ability to pitch Pyrokinesis to other Pyrokinesis if necessary. I don't disqualify Pyrokinesis from being run because, much like Chalice and Moon, it's fantastic when it's good and terrible when it's bad.

The other problem with Pyrokinesis maindeck is that if your opponent doesn't have a target, the Hellbent boost it's supposed to provide is actually going to backfire on you, although I suppose you can always Pyrokinesis your own Gathan Raiders and have it live.

Thanks for sharing.
I think that this deck is very strong,
but at the moment he has some problem with:

-chrome mox pitch
-few equipment
-answers with stuff on the board (anything on board and protected creatures)

Also I guess Pyroclasm will fit better in this deck,
as it can "Leave more room for the big ones to fight in, you know." and is very good against an early mongoose, mother of runes, cephalid/ichorid combo_guys, specter and confidant (and you can cast it easy or imprint it withour regret).

Again, thanks!
(maybe an updated Taco_Dec would be great :tongue: )

[Tacosnape]

Aaaaactually, I'm not all that against Akroma, Angel of Fury. I can honestly say I haven't tried it, but I think I'm going to. I don't know what slot it would take except for the Sulfur Elemental / Taurean Mauler slot, and I don't know that it's better than either one, but let's look at this for a minute.

1. It Morphs. Meaning it's playable for :3:. So it won't clog up your hand.
2. It's Red. Meaning it pitches to Chrome Mox and Pyrokinesis.
3. If you manage to flip the thing, it's going to slaughter the holy crap out of people.
4. There is immense potential to swing with it under the bluff that it's a Gathan Raiders, and your opponent is forced to play like the swinging card IS Gathan Raiders. This can be tremendously to your advantage.

A balanced list I might suggest would be.

10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song

4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Arc-Slogger
2 Akroma, Angel of Fury

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Blood Moon
3 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

I plan to play Dragon Stompy in a tournament in about two hours, so I might see if I can snag some Red Akromas somewhere along the line and give it a whirl.

[DalkonCledwin]

Aaaaactually, I'm not all that against Akroma, Angel of Fury. I can honestly say I haven't tried it, but I think I'm going to. I don't know what slot it would take except for the Sulfur Elemental / Taurean Mauler slot, and I don't know that it's better than either one, but let's look at this for a minute.

1. It Morphs. Meaning it's playable for :3:. So it won't clog up your hand.
2. It's Red. Meaning it pitches to Chrome Mox and Pyrokinesis.
3. If you manage to flip the thing, it's going to slaughter the holy crap out of people.
4. There is immense potential to swing with it under the bluff that it's a Gathan Raiders, and your opponent is forced to play like the swinging card IS Gathan Raiders. This can be tremendously to your advantage.

A balanced list I might suggest would be.

10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song

4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Arc-Slogger
2 Akroma, Angel of Fury

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Blood Moon
3 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

I plan to play Dragon Stompy in a tournament in about two hours, so I might see if I can snag some Red Akromas somewhere along the line and give it a whirl.

The version I saw of it... I think looked more like the following:

// Lands
10 [OD] Mountain (4)
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors

// Creatures
2 [PLC] Akroma, Angel of Fury
3 [MR] Arc-Slogger
4 [FUT] Gathan Raiders
4 [DIS] Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide

// Spells
4 [9E] Seething Song
3 [8E] Blood Moon
3 [DS] Trinisphere
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [MR] Chrome Mox

But I can't be 100% certain as I didn't ask what his deck list was... all I know is it covered all the basic card peices of a Dragon Stompy list.

[Jak]

Taco's List

Akroma does seem pretty badass and I will try it out. I would cut a Slogger. I love the card, but the curve is high and I think some Sulfur Elementals will be good.

10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song

4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Gathan Raiders
2 Sulfur Elementals (Mauler)
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
3 Arc-Slogger
2 Akroma, Angel of Fury

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Blood Moon
3 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

SB
3 Pyroclasm
1 Earthquake
4 Trinisphere
4 Winter Orb
3 Tormod's Crypt

[savemysoul]

been testing akroma on mws, many times i had to go tomb + city + mox + mountain + ssg to unmorph, and loosing 3 life. other times it just sat there or morphed on the table. but if its morphed on the table and the opponent has a tombstalker or something, it can be your only hope :) so u wish for a land/song.
but without songs this card is unplayable imo, basicly the only thing that is runned in legacy that kills it is diabolic edict/smallpox/innocent blood

[moOnsteak]

SB
3 Pyroclasm
1 Earthquake
4 Trinisphere
4 Winter Orb
3 Tormod's Crypt

and Winter Orb is there for. . .??

I think 1 Akroma is enough or maybe more than enough. .
But I want to see for what kind decks (blue??) she was prepared. .

[Sanguine Voyeur]

and Winter Orb is there for. . .??I would assume the Landstill match up. It severely slows them down and limits their ability to answer your threats.

[Jak]

and Winter Orb is there for. . .??

I think 1 Akroma is enough or maybe more than enough. .
But I want to see for what kind decks (blue??) she was prepared. .

Landstill, Wombat, Truffle Shuffle, etc. I like being able to win the control MU easily. They may change to needles but WOrbs have been good.

[b4r0n]

Is there any particular reason why people are cutting Trinispheres from the maindeck? It steals so many games. Additionally, it's effective against every deck except Lands, unlike Blood Moon which can be dead at times. I guess it's a meta call?

[Jak]

Is there any particular reason why people are cutting Trinispheres from the maindeck? It steals so many games. Additionally, it's effective against every deck except Lands, unlike Blood Moon which can be dead at times. I guess it's a meta call?

Trinisphere is not as crippling as Blood Moon. A resolved Moon against Landstill is basically GG because they can't cast anything, no matter what. Trinisphere just slows them down. However, if your meta consists of a lot of mono-colored decks, then maybe limit the number of Moons.

[nastynate]

Trinisphere is not as crippling as Blood Moon. A resolved Moon against Landstill is basically GG because they can't cast anything, no matter what. Trinisphere just slows them down. However, if your meta consists of a lot of mono-colored decks, then maybe limit the number of Moons.

Expanding further on this, without an LD compliment (like stax), 3sphere won't stop people from playing spells, making it more of a speed bump than a lock component. There are some match-ups when it feels almost useless (like goyf sligh and goblins [which can easily destroy it and/or play around it]), and others when it rocks socks (like ichorid and TES [where it actually does stop them from casting spells]).

I still main-deck 3 simply because there currently isn't anything (be it disruption, fattie, or equipment) at the same mana cost, that has as much impact on the game. 3sphere, if nothing else, has almost no impact on your ability to cast spells, and some impact against most everything else.

[Tacosnape]

Alright, early testing shows that Akroma, Angel of Fury is pretty badass in this deck and might well be better than both Sulfur Elemental and Taurean Mauler. Alternately, I found that replacing Trinisphere with more threats made the deck do exceptionally well. Despite lacking enough people for a tournament, I went 13-1 in games today, and the loss was from Dragon Stompy just screwing itself over.

The list I ran was a standard 10/4/4/4/4 Manabase, the base 20 threats, 4 Moon, 4 Chalice, 2 Jitte, 2 Akroma, and 2 Sulfur. 24 threats may seem high, but it's nice. Consistently topdecking threats allowed me to win three games after initial explosive assaults weren't enough to get the job done. I didn't miss Trinisphere at all and I really don't think it has a place in the maindeck if there aren't a significant number of decks in your metagame that are crippled by it. It's rarely enough to win a game by itself, it's a crappy topdeck, and it messes up your Chrome Moxes something fierce.

Akroma's best moment was turn one Tomb, Mox, Morph, go. Next turn, City, Seething Song, Morph, Pump, swing for 7. My opponent scooped with useless Vindicates not being able to help.

The thing about Akroma was, she wasn't bad when I couldn't flip her. I think I saw her maybe a total of six or seven times today, and I was never sorry to see her. Morphed creatures draw any and all available removal because people fear Gathan Raiders, and I was able to bluff my way through an attack with this. It helped that she was red, as I did imprint her on a Mox one game today, and I definitely never had any difficulties casting her facedown whatsoever.

Only once did I see her and wish she was a Sulfur Elemental (To throw down in front of an attacking Confidant as a trap), but only twice did it make a significant difference that she was Akroma and not the Sulfur Elemental. So this is a hard call. Both were good to me all day. Akroma's strong, though.

[moOnsteak]

After your Akroma testing. .in your opinion. .
how many 'she' would go into main deck?
1 or 2 or 3? *I believe it won't be 4*
Have a moment to hard casting her?

[zulander]

Max of 2. Even though her morph is 6, it's still too high to flip her consistently.

[Rinello]

Alright, early testing shows that Akroma, Angel of Fury is pretty badass in this deck and might well be better than both Sulfur Elemental and Taurean Mauler.

WHO_HOOOO!! I knew it! :smile:
(also I really hate Mauler..slow useless guy in this deck IMHO )


The list I ran was a standard 10/4/4/4/4 Manabase, the base 20 threats, 4 Moon, 4 Chalice, 2 Jitte, 2 Akroma, and 2 Sulfur.
Just curious:
Do you miss SoF&I and a 3rd Jitte?
Do you consider Simian Spirt Guide a threat? Do you cast it every now and then?


I didn't miss Trinisphere at all and I really don't think it has a place in the maindeck if there aren't a significant number of decks in your metagame that are crippled by it. It's rarely enough to win a game by itself, it's a crappy topdeck, and it messes up your Chrome Moxes something fierce.

120% agree.
When I wanted to board in Pyrokinesis, I was really worried about mox chrome/red pitch.
I think Akroma is a good answer, also because Trinisphere is just like putting a finger into your opponent's eye while your "Blood_Void Death Combo Lock From Hell" chokes him: fun, but redundant.



Morphed creatures draw any and all available removal because people fear Gathan Raiders, and I was able to bluff my way through an attack with this. It helped that she was red, as I did imprint her on a Mox one game today, and I definitely never had any difficulties casting her facedown whatsoever.
Bluff is very good.
In a tournament sometimes you can just win by stressing an overcautious opponent :laugh:


Only once did I see her and wish she was a Sulfur Elemental (To throw down in front of an attacking Confidant as a trap), but only twice did it make a significant difference that she was Akroma and not the Sulfur Elemental. So this is a hard call. Both were good to me all day. Akroma's strong, though.

So you're saying that a 2/2 split Akroma/Sulfur Elemental would be perfect?
'Cause you know, this is tempty.. I'm just not sure about what to do with Jitte and SoF&I......... :rolleyes:

[Maveric78f]

Drawing into several trinisphere is a pain, but the first is rarely bad, as being a protection against FoW and played early it's really a good timewalk. Thus, why not keep 2 MD and add only 2 more threats (Akroma for instance) ?

[moOnsteak]

Trinisphere or Blood Moon for maindeck is optional. .
For my metagame that contain half of mono-color deck, Trinisphere is still the main choice. .Same as SoLS over SoFI cause my meta has a lot of StP and Shriekmaw. .it's all about your possibly opponent to face. .

I'm looking for 22 creatures here :
4 Gathan Riders
4 Rakdos Pit-dragon
4 Magus of The Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide

The last 6 will be :
* Arc-Slogger (2/3/4)
* Sulfur Elemental (0/2/3/4)
* Akroma, Angel of Fury (0/1/2)
* Taurean Mauler (0/2/3/4)
* others?? Greater Gargadon maybe?

What do you all think?

[Rinello]

The last 6 will be :
* Arc-Slogger (2/3/4)
* Sulfur Elemental (0/2/3/4)
* Akroma, Angel of Fury (0/1/2)
* Taurean Mauler (0/2/3/4)
* others?? Greater Gargadon maybe?

What do you all think?

3 arcslogger, 2 sulfur and 1 akroma.
or 3 arcslogger, 2 akroma and 1 sulfur.
EDIT: 3 arcslogger are needed, they are 5cc beaters, board control and finishers.
2 sulfur + 1 akroma or vice versa: even if you love akroma, sometimes you have just 3 mana and a 3/3 mongoose to stop.
akroma is good, but I think that a low cost beater with flash is needed.
In the future, please add more content in posts in the DtB Forum. ~ Nightmare

[Ragnarok]

I need an explanation for the following;
I hear you guys talking about not playing to many expensive creatures because it doesn't fit in the mana curve and it's not much synergie* with hellbent. But now I see lists with Akroma, that's even more expensive then arc-slogger and sometimes I hate drawing that card. I agree this card is pretty good, but is it that good in this deck and isn't this card screwing with your speed?

[freakish777]

Let's be honest here. Akroma Angel of Fury is a 3 mana 2/2 that's usually unblockable by anything without 5 or more toughness because your opponent thinks it's a Gathan Raiders.

Additionally, unmophing it can easily be handled at 4 mana plus a Seething Song. The issue isn't whether or not the card is good in the deck as 1 one of, the question is whether or not the current metagame (being filled with Red Thresh) allows you to play morph creatures beyond Gathan Raiders without resolving Chalice@1 first.

[Zork]

I think 2 Akroma is pushing it as it is, which is why I only ran 1 (I want to try 2 against the new thresh lists, but if its not relevant I'll go back to something else). The deck already has plenty of grey ogres, and most of the time, she will not be flipped up. I don't actually think of her as an aggro creature, though she certainly can go aggro, but rather an answer to answers and an actual plan for the long game. Don't ever play 3. Seriously.

I'm also glad people are finally going to 23-24 threats (counting SSG and Magus), since this deck's tougher matchups are ones in which they answer all of your threats, but I strongly disagree with cutting the equipment down to 2 Jitte. Against your tougher matchups, you will often have to try to ride one or two threats against theirs, and a lone SSG/morph/Gathan Raiders/Magus is usually not enough against an opponent playing real threats. Equipment is what makes them threats, and with so many grey ogres, a couple SoFaI is almost necessary (I have never seen a goyf shit itself at a SSG or magus, but a monkey with a Sword can out tempo a 5/6 goyf and provide more gas).

For maindeck disruption, it really depends on what you expect to run into, and what you fear. I feel like cutting Trinisphere completely is a bad choice unless your metagame is nothing but Landstill and 43 Lands. I expected more Landstill and Survival than I ran into, so cutting sphere for a moon seemed like the right choice (it worked out that I didn't run into either, but I felt more prepared against them), especially with Eva Green caring less about sphere and making up at least 3 decks in the metagame.

[Tacosnape]

Trinisphere or Blood Moon for maindeck is optional. .
For my metagame that contain half of mono-color deck, Trinisphere is still the main choice. .Same as SoLS over SoFI cause my meta has a lot of StP and Shriekmaw. .it's all about your possibly opponent to face. .

I'm looking for 22 creatures here :


For a metagame that contains half mono-color decks, there's probably no way in hell you should be running this deck.

As for your 22 creatures, this is what they should be.

4 Gathan Raiders
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Arc-Slogger
2 Akroma, Angel of Fury/Sulfur Elemental/Taurean Mauler

I'd pick Akroma or Sulfur. The more I play Mauler, the more I dislike his synergy with Chalice and Moon. Sulfur Elemental has the luxury of being a makeshift removal spell from time to time, and Akroma wins if you flip her.


I need an explanation for the following;
I hear you guys talking about not playing to many expensive creatures because it doesn't fit in the mana curve and it's not much synergie* with hellbent. But now I see lists with Akroma, that's even more expensive then arc-slogger and sometimes I hate drawing that card. I agree this card is pretty good, but is it that good in this deck and isn't this card screwing with your speed?

You aren't thinking in terms of Hellbent practicality. For Hellbent, you need only get it out of your hand. Akroma's is as easy to get out of your hand as Gathan Raiders, easier than Magus/Dragon/Slogger, and less easy than only Simian Spirit Guide. Your hand will never be clogged up by Akroma in a situation where it wouldn't also be clogged up by any other creature suggested in this entire thread.

Flipping her may be more expensive than Arc-Slogger, sure, but let's be real about this. Dragon Stompy is a deck capable of producing obscene amounts of mana. The reason we don't run many creatures we can't get out of our hand for :2::r: or :3: is that it can't generate said mana consistently. However, the punishment for not having the mana to flip an Akroma is significantly less than the reward you get the times you do have it.

[Arsenal]

Whatever happened to Razormane Masticore? He's a 5/5 first striker for 5; well within reasonable casting cost for this deck. He clears the path of any blockers, and if he doesn't flat out kill them, the chances of them blocking & having their creature survive is very slim. He's colorless damage, so red hate is dead against him. He helps you achieve hellbent.

Not even as a 2 of perhaps?

[J.V.]

The problem with him is he requires you to NOT have Hellbent during declared attackers since he has an upkeep cost and if you drop your hand you'll lose him. and Not have Hellbent for your other creatures just isn't worth it.

[Arsenal]

The problem with him is he requires you to NOT have Hellbent during declared attackers since he has an upkeep cost and if you drop your hand you'll lose him. and Not have Hellbent for your other creatures just isn't worth it.

Lol, yes. I'm retarded. I can see the dis-synergy now. Boo.... The Masticore family gets no love anymore, anywhere.

[Tacosnape]

The problem with him is he requires you to NOT have Hellbent during declared attackers since he has an upkeep cost and if you drop your hand you'll lose him. and Not have Hellbent for your other creatures just isn't worth it.

Jan's dead on. Gathan Raiders killed Razormane Masticore, as awesome as Raziepoo once was.

Additionally, the more I play this deck the more I realize that the less artifacts you have (and consequently the more red cards you have), the more powerful the deck is. Obviously, this only applies to a degree, as cutting Chalice or Mox is out of the question, and I think Jitte's still too strong to cut entirely, but it really helps if all of your threats are red and thereby able to imprint on a Chrome Mox if you absolutely need them to.

[savemysoul]

im testing mauler and he`s superb. if your opponent doesn`t have an answer to him, he sometimes works like a standstill, opponent wont play a spell till he draws a removal, or if he plays spells in 3 turns he is big enough to finish the game. if he has removal than hes just +3 life to swords and he lets other creatures survive. overall he`s just great

[Rinello]

Jan's dead on. Gathan Raiders killed Razormane Masticore, as awesome as Raziepoo once was.

Additionally, the more I play this deck the more I realize that the less artifacts you have (and consequently the more red cards you have), the more powerful the deck is. Obviously, this only applies to a degree, as cutting Chalice or Mox is out of the question, and I think Jitte's still too strong to cut entirely, but it really helps if all of your threats are red and thereby able to imprint on a Chrome Mox if you absolutely need them to.

I think 3 jitte and a sword of fire and ice is good enough.
This deck try to drop a chalice or a moon in the first turn, then drop a huge treat and win in a couple turns.

too many jitte can slow your hand, force you to forget about hellbent OR about an equipped Rakdos Pit Dragon, they just help you if an opponent plays one before you do.
Also ONE sword of fire and ice is good, since we don't want to draw that much :tongue: and we can't imprint any artifact to chrome mox.

[Zork]

My problem with Mauler is that he is awful as a topdeck, especially against the decks that can take this deck to school. Most Thresh and Landstill decks will let your early threats resolve, and then use removal on them, saving counters for later threats and disruption (or at least, the better players will do this). Sulfur Elemental gets around this.

[moOnsteak]

For a metagame that contains half mono-color decks, there's probably no way in hell you should be running this deck.


I still do. .because chalice @ 1 or 2 is too good to be true even against mono. .
Also Trinisphere delay everything until I get my threat so I still love this deck. .

Note for Akroma, sometimes when I draw Seething Song with no other spell in my hand, it's a dead card unless you want to get mana burn to keep hellbent. .with she's at morph condition, draw a Song just like a dream comes true :laugh:

[Rinello]

My problem with Mauler is that he is awful as a topdeck, especially against the decks that can take this deck to school. Most Thresh and Landstill decks will let your early threats resolve, and then use removal on them, saving counters for later threats and disruption (or at least, the better players will do this). Sulfur Elemental gets around this.

also consider that you can cast it when you don't have a seething song and need some speed..
I suggest testing 3 Arcslogger, 2 Sulfur Elemental and 1 Akroma,
and then write results: I guess we will not miss Trinisphere maindeck with this build :cool:

[moOnsteak]

So, after any Akroma, Mauler, and Trinisphere discussion, I'd like to apply what list I'd play for next tourney, here it is :

4 Gathan Riders
4 Rakdos Pit-Dragon
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Arc-Slogger
2 Sulfur Elemental
1 Akroma, Angel of Fury

1 Chandra Nalaar

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere --slot--
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow / 3rd Jitte
4 Seething Song
4 Chrome Mox

18 standard land (4/4/10). .

About Chandra : don't get me wrong, I need her as an answer for Goyf, Sea Drake, shadow creatures, flying creatures which dominating in my meta. .She has proved herself as good as she looks like. .you can simply cut her but I really need her. .

Assume Trinisphere should be removed and I don't need more Moon effect, what do you all recommend to be added to fill --slot-- for this list? More creatures? or more Stax effect? Such as?

[Zork]

I'm sorry, but with thresh being the absolute best deck in the format, I cannot conceive of cutting trinisphere from the maindeck, as it is just such a beating against them. I guess if no one runs thresh or if the thresh players in your metagame run builds that completely bend over to moon effects (and hell, the best thresh list out there runs blood moon maindeck), then you can probably cut trinisphere. Otherwise, I want more than just 4 Chalice and moons against them.

Also, I have come to the conclusion that the MWS shuffler loves this deck. I seem to get 80% great hands and better topdecks on MWS than I ever do in real life testing, even if I pile shuffle. This is why I used to think that Tahngarth was OK - MWS always let me drop him. Don't trust results from MWS.

EDIT - If you really think that cutting Trinisphere is OK, I would run 1-2 Blood Moon main and/or 1-2 Sulfur Elemental.

[savemysoul]

what thresh list runs moons main ? countertop thrash ftw, ofcourse wich build is best is dependant on the player and meta

[Tacosnape]

I think regardless of what decks are packing basics / Blood Moons themselves, the point needs to be made about Blood Moon that it's still good against these decks. A first turn Blood Moon can still win entire games against decks packing significant number of basics if they are holding 0-1 basics and a hand full of fetchlands. And even if you don't shut off their spell capacity, you can at least slow them down by making their fetchland/dual topdecks work for nothing more than colorless mana. Some decks are very strong against Blood Moon, but just because you run a few basics here and there doesn't mean that Blood Moon can't completely hose you.

[n00bas4urus_r3x]

Actually in regards to a first turn Moon/other plays I have a question:

If you're playing against a deck that you know packs Daze, is it (when on the draw) better to play around this or just through out threats regardless? I usually slow play against Thresh to stop Daze, I was just wondering what others did.

[Rinello]

So, after any Akroma, Mauler, and Trinisphere discussion, I'd like to apply what list I'd play for next tourney, here it is :

4 Gathan Riders
4 Rakdos Pit-Dragon
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Arc-Slogger
2 Sulfur Elemental
1 Akroma, Angel of Fury

1 Chandra Nalaar

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere --slot--
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow / 3rd Jitte
4 Seething Song
4 Chrome Mox

18 standard land (4/4/10). .

About Chandra : don't get me wrong, I need her as an answer for Goyf, Sea Drake, shadow creatures, flying creatures which dominating in my meta. .She has proved herself as good as she looks like. .you can simply cut her but I really need her. .


I really like chandra, but I don't think is THAT good in this deck because it is really slow. If your problem is Sea Drake, use Pyrokinesis..

'Cept for Chandra, our list look similar:
I have 3 jitte and no SoL&S (maybe I'll test it) because I really want a red card in my hand to pitch, and I don't want to pitch a treat so I use 3 Blood Moon maindeck + 1 Sideboard.

My Chandra slot maybe should be used for a treat, but I think a 4th Arcslogger would be too much.... I think I'll try a second Akroma:
"ok, :3: Morph.. 33% Girl and 66% Boy Chance..."

also consider your sideboard, and please post it!

Mine is:

4 Tromod
3 Pithing needle
1 Blood Moon
3 Trinisphere
4 PyroCLASM (you can try Pyrokinesis)

[Phantom]

If you're playing against a deck that you know packs Daze, is it (when on the draw) better to play around this or just through out threats regardless? I usually slow play against Thresh to stop Daze, I was just wondering what others did.

I've always been pro playing into Daze with Stompy decks for the most part. You can't generalize completely since if you're holding one last bomb you may want to play around Daze.

Basically my philosophy is "We're a deck that is completely driven by dropping expensive cards early", right? So waiting an extra turn to play all our cards is hurting our fundemental strategy. If you know they have a Daze, ok wait. But really there is usually only a 50% chance they have one if they are packing four, so I'd really rather not give them the turn in which to dig for a Force/Grip/Bolt, drop Counterbalance/Top/Meddling Mage, or just do something hurtful to us. I say if you're on the play and you can go Tomb -> Chalice@1, fire away. A lot of people disagree, but if I'm going down with an aggressive deck, I'd rather go down swinging than because I was too meek.

[moOnsteak]

Ok here's more about Chandra. .she control the field not just at one time. .when Pyrokinesis do. .for an example, if my opponent cast Ornithopter waiting for Plating to be equipped, sure I will pyro it same with the others (frogmite and disciple of vault for example). .but when my opponent soon drop 2nd orni, I'll have no answer. .and that's why I need Chandra. .
Same case when you face an opponent who runs so many shadow creatures with a lot of equipment. .I know it's rare but it happen in my meta so 1 Chandra is my plan against it. .

owh yeah my sideboard will be :
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Pyroclasm
3 Blood Moon
3 Pithing Needle
1 Trinisphere

I have same problem too against 'Daze'. .that's why I still contain Trinisphere main. .so my oppent have to choose, daze it or you'll never able to cas daze again. .

[Zork]

I guess if you really need to kill ornithopters you can play Chandra, but I know that whenever I have needed to answer a threat it is usually because it's bigger than my creatures, and in that case Chandra is usually somewhat worse than a fireball or a wall of stone.

Also, about your board: play 4 Pithing Needle.

[savemysoul]

ssg can be a nice trick against daze :smile:

[Rinello]

Ok here's more about Chandra. .she control the field not just at one time. .when Pyrokinesis do. .for an example, if my opponent cast Ornithopter waiting for Plating to be equipped, sure I will pyro it same with the others (frogmite and disciple of vault for example). .but when my opponent soon drop 2nd orni, I'll have no answer. .and that's why I need Chandra. .
Same case when you face an opponent who runs so many shadow creatures with a lot of equipment. .I know it's rare but it happen in my meta so 1 Chandra is my plan against it. .

Ok, but I think that Chandra is useful only if you drop it 1swt/2nd turn.
This implies a seething song.
And I'd rather drop a rakdos pit dragon or an arcslogger, because Chandra is a slow yet persistent control card, Dragon or Slogger are a win condition.
I personally love Pyroclasm and I think I'll use it over Pyrokinesis, because a lot of times is a card advantage removal, cheap and with the ability to kill a naked troll, or a early mongoose.. and Pyroclasm is never a dead card in your hand , since is very cheap.

About Daze: I don't care. Really. If you daze me a chalice, I'll drop a moon. You only have 4 Dazes and you loose tempo every time.
Yes, you can try to daze me, but if you are counting on you 4_pack Dazes, I have my 4_pack 'Rillaz... So basically is all bluff and luck, don't waste time and play aggro :tongue: (OBV IMHO)

[Zork]

Playing into daze seems like a bad idea if you have only 1 disruption piece in your hand and no SSG. If you have more than one and feel like drawing some tempo to drop a bomb (like Chalice at 2), then go for it. Of course then you lose to FoW or swords.

[n00bas4urus_r3x]

Playing into daze seems like a bad idea if you have only 1 disruption piece in your hand and no SSG. If you have more than one and feel like drawing some tempo to drop a bomb (like Chalice at 2), then go for it. Of course then you lose to FoW or swords.

Right. I mean if i have a Chalice in hand, a City/tomb, and a mountain, with no SSG, it seems to me like I should drop Mountain, pass, then Chalice @1 next turn without the threat of Daze. Then either forces them for have Force, or Chalice pretty much shuts them down.

[Phantom]

Right. I mean if i have a Chalice in hand, a City/tomb, and a mountain, with no SSG, it seems to me like I should drop Mountain, pass, then Chalice @1 next turn without the threat of Daze. Then either forces them for have Force, or Chalice pretty much shuts them down.

Right, but weigh that against the fact that that extra turn is going to allow them to dig for Force (possibly 8 deep with two Ponders) or double Daze or Spell Snare or Krosan Grip. Now you're going to lose a game you would have won because you were afraid of a card they may or may not have had.

[Rinello]

Right, but weigh that against the fact that that extra turn is going to allow them to dig for Force (possibly 8 deep with two Ponders) or double Daze or Spell Snare or Krosan Grip. Now you're going to lose a game you would have won because you were afraid of a card they may or may not have had.

If I am not the first player, and I see a "Flooded Strand, Go",
I try a "chalice for 1" anyway.
If he has a FoW, he has to pitch something, if he has a Daze, he'll be slow and jump a land drop, so the next turn I can try a Blood Moon.

Another Daze or Fow? No problem, when You'll see my Arcslogger your FoW will be floating in your deck somewhere. :tongue:

Also consider that my Simian Spirit Guide is great against Daze...

----

Shall we keep Trinisphere in Sideboard at all?
Why don't we try somethin like evoke cards (Ingot Chewer) and Sword of Light and Shadow?
Just thinking about some new sinergy, since we can play around our own Chalice and still use cheap spells if we avoid Trinisphere..

[Tacosnape]

I'm not all that opposed to experimenting with Trinispherelessness, although this will cause a significant dent in matchups like Epic Storm, as well as making it a lot harder to recover should you go 0-1 or 1-1 with decks like Threshold and have an opportunity to board them in on the play.

If Trinisphere is replaced, and that's a huge if, there are only two cards I'd consider in its place. Pyroblast and Serum Powder.

Pyroblast is solid. Decks like Threshold and Landstill beat us by countering our Blood Moons / Chalices, then drawing or cantripping into more counters while we topdeck crap. Pyroblast allows you to power Chalices and Moons through counters. It's decent against any blue deck on a slow draw, also, as it makes the occasions where you have to lead with "Mountain, Go" not so bad.

Serum Powder's probably even better, however. I've been running this for a couple months and it's nice. It ensures you'll get Blood Moons in matches where Moons auto-win. Ditto for Chalices. It'll help you dig up those Crypts against Ichorid, Needles against Survival and Belcher, Pyroclasm/kinesis against Goblins, or whatever the case may be. What's more, if you get Moons online, the mana part of Serum Powder isn't all that irrelevant, as it can help you cast Dragons and Sloggers.

[DalkonCledwin]

The version of the deck I am planning on building once I have the skeleton of the deck (thanks to my friend and birthday) is as follows:

// Lands
11 [IA] Snow-Covered Mountain
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb

// Creatures
1 [PLC] Akroma, Angel of Fury
3 [MR] Arc-Slogger
4 [FUT] Gathan Raiders
4 [DIS] Rakdos Pit Dragon
2 [PLC] Sulfur Elemental
4 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide

// Spells
4 [9E] Seething Song
3 [8E] Blood Moon
2 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [8E] Blood Moon
SB: 4 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [10E] Pyroclasm
SB: 3 [B] Winter Orb
SB: 3 [DS] Trinisphere

As far as the main board goes, I think its a pretty common mainboard now that we have established that Akroma and Sulfur Elemental are two of the new powerhouses of the deck. However I have decided to run 2 Sword of Light and Shadow in the deck, only because in my meta, White and Black seem to be the primary colors that my opposition likes to play.

In the sideboard I am running Winter Orbs instead of Pithing Needles because I have had the displeasure of coming up against Landstill and Aggro Loam one to many times in my play history, and I like the idea of not only having moon to shut these decks down, but also Winter Orb to slow them down considerably! I am also keeping the Trinisphere in the sideboard for those match ups in which I find myself facing Burn decks and the like, I know for a fact there is a Goblin deck in my meta, and it would be severely hurt by Trinisphere. So I look forward to putting that in the sideboard as well. Tormod's Crypt and Pyroclasm are my primary weapons against dredge. Unfortunately I am a little skeptical at their effectiveness!

[theross]

Cutting Trinisphere seems terrible. The card is absolutely broken. I am always hesitant to board it out even on the draw because it's such a strong tempo play, which is what a deck like this wants. Chalice and Blood Moon are occasionally stronger but neither is as consistently good as an early trinisphere. When they have to choose between answering the Gathan Raiders on the table and countering your Pit-Dragon you have already won the game. Then there are the matchups, namely combo, where it is the number one card you want to see. This fact alone justifies it's inclusion in your sideboard at least since combo forms a decent percentage of any metagame.

In short, there is a reason this card is restricted in vintage.

[Meekrab]

In short, there is a reason this card is restricted in vintage.
This is an astoundingly bad argument. Most of the accompanying cards that made Trinisphere retarded in Vintage are either not legal or just plan bad in Legacy Chalice Aggro. I could list them, but just go pull a Shop Aggro/$T4KS decklist from circa February 2005 and read it. How many of those cards are legal in Legacy and good in Dragon Stompy?

I would say that replacing 3sphere with 'tech' like Pyroblast is probably giving away matchup %age and is the complete opposite of the deck's strategy, but Serum Powder is at least an interesting idea.

Starting game 2/3 with gamebreaking "Card X" ~55-60% of the time versus 40% isn't bad at all. You already play the scariest "I randomly win this game because you didn't have FoW" hosers in the format main deck. I would think drawing more of them against problematic matchups is all you can ask from a sideboard card and I don't see the difference between 3sphere and Serum Powder in that respect, except that 3sphere is broken by itself and Serum Powder lets you mulligan out of the amazing Tomb, City, 4 red cards opening hand for free.

[savemysoul]

As far as the main board goes, I think its a pretty common mainboard now that we have established that Akroma and SULFUR ELEMENTAL are two of the new powerhouses of the deck.


if you check the first page, sulfur has been in the list from the beginning.

as for 3sphere, it rocks in my meta, kills combo, stops burn severly, there wasn`t a game where i didn`t like to see 3sphere first turn on the table, not to say that against any matchup a first turn 3sphere on the play = 2 timewalks

[outsideangel]

And that reason is Mishra's Workshop :wink:


This is not entirely true. 3sphere was restricted in Vintage because it could be reliably played first turn and the DCI concluded that a reliable, first-turn 3sphere was "unfun".

Sure, Workshop was a large part of why it could be reliably played so early, but don't forget about the SoLoMoxen, etc. And it really wasn't an issue of "broken" interactions. There was no real consensus that 3sphere was broken in Vintage.

[Bardo]

Split, moved and merged all of the posts about Serum Powder to a new thread in the "Format Discussion Forum."

Let's get the discussion back on track and on-topic. Grazi. - Bardo

[Tacosnape]

if you check the first page, sulfur has been in the list from the beginning.

as for 3sphere, it rocks in my meta, kills combo, stops burn severly, there wasn`t a game where i didn`t like to see 3sphere first turn on the table, not to say that against any matchup a first turn 3sphere on the play = 2 timewalks

Back on track with Trinisphere discussions.

I'll concede that yes, there are very very few games where you aren't going to want a turn one Trinisphere. Turn one Trinisphere is very strong, no debate. There are matches where I will board in Trinisphere (It now lives in my sideboard) strictly when I'm about to be on the play, just because Trinisphere is so good in this situation.

The drawback, however, is that we don't always -get- a turn one Trinisphere. Sometimes we can't get it out until turn two. Sometimes we don't draw it until turn three. Sometimes our opponent gets to go first and does something annoying like Ritual/Specter, or Aether Vial. How many games do you want to see a Trinisphere when you can't get it down quickly?

Sometimes the answer to that will still be "Quite a few," depending on your metagame. However, by this time, the number will have dwindled severely.

The real question basically boils down to "Do we win more games from turn one Trinisphere being a mega time walk than we lose because we get it midgame when it isn't a threat or a relevant card, or than we lose because it doesn't imprint on a Chrome Mox when what we most need is to cast the red threats in our hand?"

The answer probably depends on your metagame, but I personally feel like Trinisphere influences the outcome of more games for this deck, both positively and negatively, than any other card it runs. I feel that due to the fact Dragon Stompy can't back up Trinisphere with any additional land destruction, that a lot of decks manage to escape from the turn one Trinisphere because I had to imprint a threat I needed on a Chrome Mox in order to get the turn one Trinisphere, and then topdeck crappily for a turn or two. I also feel I lose more due to topdecking it midgame than I win by dropping it first turn.

[Rinello]

Back on track with Trinisphere discussions. Thank you, God.



The real question basically boils down to "Do we win more games from turn one Trinisphere being a mega time walk than we lose because we get it midgame when it isn't a threat or a relevant card, or than we lose because it doesn't imprint on a Chrome Mox when what we most need is to cast the red threats in our hand?"

We win more games from turn 1 Trinisphere being a meta Time Walk only if we cannot make a turn 1 Blood Moon or a turn 1 Chalice.
This is my opinion, but I'd rather make a I_start_turn_1 chalice @1 than a turn 1 trinisphere, as my sphere will be NEAR useless when turn 3 will come, while my chalice will FOREVER stop STP_on_Dragon or BEB_against_Moon

Anyway I fell the same as you do: 3Sphere does not imprint on a mox, and we have few threats.
So we must consider that Moon is a "deck killer" like 3sphere (if not better) and it is RED (relevant to our pitch) and Moon last forever, while sphere is avoided when opponent has 3 lands.

I feel that 3 sphere goes in SB, and only 3x, not 4x.
I think is must be used only against Burn, threshold , TES etc..
but a lot of times, a Blood Moon or Chalice @1/2 will be better, as it last longer.
Also I think it can kill an opponent turn 1, especially if I start, but unlike Blood Moon, I cannot use it turn 1 and then think: "ok,even if I draw a crappy topdeck, I have won, my opponent is screwed, he has 2 fetches in his hand."

If I use a Moon or Chalice turn 1 I can WAIT and topdeck crap turn 2, cause I locked him hard.. this does not happen if I use trinisphere MAINDECK (I mean, Vs TES a turn 1 trinisphere is win.)

Last part (sorry about redundacy):
Taco, I feel like you are my personal Guru in this discussion, so I consider your post like GOLD. Every time you write I agree and feel like we have the same plan in mind, you only have the chance to test this deck more than me:
Can you give your personal list? Maybe I just leech it, but I think that this way the discussion can advance to a new level.
Thanks.

[Tacosnape]

I hate sharing lists that I haven't had for very long, because I lack the testing or certainty to back up the choices very well, but at current, here's my list.

10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song

4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Arc-Slogger
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Akroma, Angel of Fury (Edit: I'm dumb.)

4 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Umezawa's Jitte

SB:
4 Pithing Needle
4 Pyrokinesis
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Trinisphere
2 Pyroblast

Several points on this list.

1. In my defense, yes, I know it's very possible that 2 Jitte is nowhere near enough equipment. It's an experiment. I will say that with 24 threats, the deck can simply overwhelm you with giant guys, and I don't lose nearly as often to not topdecking a threat midgame.

2. No, I'm not endorsing Pyrokinesis over Pyroclasm, or vice versa. This is also an experiment. I go back and forth a lot. I will say that Kinesis gains strength when most of your deck is red, and Pyroclasm gains strength in Stax-heavier versions. Kinesis -should- be better in the mirror, too, but I'm not entirely sure about that yet.

3. The Pyroblast is an experiment to try and better my Landstill matchup. I've also tried Defense Grid in this slot, which seems to be much better if my sole goal is to resolve a Blood Moon. This could easily be -2 Pyroblast, +1 Crypt, +1 Trinisphere (Or +0 Crypt, +2 Trinisphere).

4. My brain can't logically make it right for it to be a 2/2 split between Sulfur and Akroma, but so far it seems to be doing okay. Sulfur's good as sneaky removal (Flash and block), and Akroma's big and scary, but 4 of either one has left me disappointed.

[Jak]

Okay, Trini is good and all, but I would rather side in better cards against stuff like Landstill. They can just answer it way to easily and playing this turn one is no big deal. Blood Moon is bigger in this MU.

If I had a way to fit both in the deck I would, but I do not want more dead cards in the late game. I want more threats.

[RC Snakle]

On Trinisphere: Yes, it's Time Strech turn one on the play, and Time Walk turn two on the play/turn one on the draw, but weaker in the rest of the game, and the debate seems to assume that in this "weak" period 3Sphere's virtually blank. This is nonsense; a Trinisphere, dropped at any time, will gum your opponent up considerably(assuming their deck is in that 90% that cares about 3Sphere). Trinisphere after turn three basically reads:

Rule of Sphere (3)
Your opponent cannot play more than one spell per untap phase.
When your opponent controls more than six land, sacrifice ~this~.

Which, while weaker than Time Strech, is still really damned good.. Threshold can no longer go turn 3 Ponder -> Threat, or Threat -> Force your next spell until they drop their 6th land; Burn/Sligh can't dome you for 10 in a turn. Not bad for a "blank."

[Zork]

Trinisphere should be reduced from the main only if you expect absolutely no one playing thresh or storm combo. Trinisphere at any time other than maybe turn 10 against thresh is a beating, as it turns half of their deck into awful cards. Basically, thresh should lose anytime you drop a trinisphere, as it leaves them with one play per turn, the only one you care about being "Goyf, go."

With landstill, I would agree that 3sphere is only solid on turn 1. After that, its bad. Against 4c landstill, Blood Moon is much better, but like 3sphere it is best played on turn 1, otherwise Landstill can draw into more counters or drop a deed. Against U/W Landstill, Moon is weaker (especially as a topdeck), while 3sphere is just as good (or bad).

[Tacosnape]

^
I think Taco meant that he initally posted Angel of Wrath, then realized his mistake; not that he's playing Akroma in a weird deck.

This would be correct. I'm just going to start posting her as "Red Akroma," rather than Akroma, Angel of Insert Negative Destructive Emotion Here.

@Dilletante: I tried Godo. I wanted it to work really bad, but it just didn't. If you can hit six mana, flipping an Akroma's significantly stronger anyway, and Akroma at least plays the whole "Look at me, I'm a Gathan Raiders, Really" game for :3:, while Godo sits in your hand and messes up Hellbent.

[moOnsteak]

[A Bardo Paraphrase:]

http://www.businessgreetingcards.com/images/usrupload/Confused%201.jpg

[Bardo]

Why does this thread keep descending into bullshit so quickly? Post something useful or don't bother.

[n00bas4urus_r3x]

This is based off pure speculation because I really haven't played magic in several months (damn macs and non-compatibility with mws), but what do you guys think of Keldon Firebombers for the board against landstill and other control?

[Rinello]

OK, here's my list:


// Lands
10 [MM] Mountain (4)
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors

// Creatures
4 [DIS] Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 [FUT] Gathan Raiders
3 [MR] Arc-Slogger
2 [PLC] Sulfur Elemental
4 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
1 [PLC] Akroma, Angel of Fury

// Spells
1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
3 [8E] Blood Moon
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MR] Seething Song
1 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [8E] Blood Moon
SB: 3 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 3 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [AL] Pyrokinesis OR Pyroclasm..not sure atm


I will not rely in Akroma too much, so I just use it as a nasty surprise every now and then.
I like a heavy Blood Moon build, I think mine is pretty solid.



Trinisphere should be reduced from the main only if you expect absolutely no one playing thresh or storm combo. Trinisphere at any time other than maybe turn 10 against thresh is a beating, as it turns half of their deck into awful cards. Basically, thresh should lose anytime you drop a trinisphere, as it leaves them with one play per turn, the only one you care about being "Goyf, go."

I want to ask you why do you insist with Trinisphere:
Do you think that Trinisphere is stronger than Blood Moon against thresh?
I think that a Blood Moon kills them better and quickly.
They usually have 1 Island maindeck, so we can use a Moon + Chalice @1 and be pretty sure they will never win.
Also Moon is a red card, and helps us to shift to "every land is red, gogo Pit_Dragon!" mode.

-just my opinion

[Sanguine Voyeur]

but what do you guys think of Keldon Firebombers for the board against landstill and other control?Seems bad, it leaves them with enough mana for Life from the Loam, Crucible, or to activate a Nantuko Monastery and kill your attackers. It's also a wee 3/3 for Arc-Slogger mana.

[moOnsteak]

I want to ask you why do you insist with Trinisphere:
Do you think that Trinisphere is stronger than Blood Moon against thresh?
I think that a Blood Moon kills them better and quickly.
They usually have 1 Island maindeck, so we can use a Moon + Chalice @1 and be pretty sure they will never win.
Also Moon is a red card, and helps us to shift to "every land is red, gogo Pit_Dragon!" mode.

-just my opinion

Sure Blood Moon is more easy to pitched than 3sphere. .but disagree about Moon kills Threshold that good. .Once the Thres player have one basic forest and basic island in play, they can go reach their win though not dominating like they has 2 tropical. .Also against Thres with :r:, Fledgling Dragon will give you a hard time. .

I'm on my way with 3sphere is better against thres. .3 mana for their drawer spell will give us a fair match. .they cast a draw spell mean they won't force or daze you. .

[savemysoul]

Rinello : what if you play 3sphere & blood moon ? i have 4 3sphere main and 7 moon effects = very favorable match against thresh. 3sphere does not only make the 12 cantrips for 1 mana in theyr deck to cost 3 mana, but mongoose as well + the added uslessness of FoW, daze. and like i said before first turn 3sphere is 2 timewalks, so it gives you two turns to drop bomb/moon/chalice.

[Rinello]

Sure Blood Moon is more easy to pitched than 3sphere. .but disagree about Moon kills Threshold that good. .Once the Thres player have one basic forest and basic island in play, they can go reach their win though not dominating like they has 2 tropical. .Also against Thres with , Fledgling Dragon will give you a hard time. .

I'm on my way with 3sphere is better against thres. .3 mana for their drawer spell will give us a fair match. .they cast a draw spell mean they won't force or daze you. .

...Right, 110% agree.
What do you think about this: 3 blood moon main + 4 Magus,
3x Trinisphere from sideboard against Thres, keeping 4 Magi in.

:r: Thres can be hard, but usually they use only 2 Dragons, and they must draw them while we stop their strategy.. by preventing them from cantrip and controll, so they cannot reach thres or draw any Dragon.



Rinello : what if you play 3sphere & blood moon ? i have 4 3sphere main and 7 moon effects = very favorable match against thresh. 3sphere does not only make the 12 cantrips for 1 mana in theyr deck to cost 3 mana, but mongoose as well + the added uslessness of FoW, daze. and like i said before first turn 3sphere is 2 timewalks, so it gives you two turns to drop bomb/moon/chalice.

3 + 3 maindeck would be Heaven, but you can't stop a game when your opponent try to prevent this to happen, you know..
Sometimes I wish I had 3 Moons and 3 Trinisphere in my deck, but when you play this deck, after a couple turns locking your opponent while he is waiting for a solution, you must use a big beater and win the match (do you agree?).
So I think that 22 Beaters are the minimum, if , BIG IF, we want 3 trini main, we must remove some equipment.. and loose if our opponent charges a Jitte very fast.

[Maveric78f]

DS does not need any equipment. You should not play it as if it was FS, or another very aggro oriented deck. You should play it like an aggroish Stax. 1st, you play lockpieces that are supposed to last 3 or 4 turns. Then you play threats and try to win within that time.

The Taco's signature and yours too is really a bad play:

"Tomb, Mox, Mox, Pit Dragon, go. Untap, draw, Mountain, Seething Song, Swing for 20." ==> i want to believe
The good play would be. Mox, Tomb, lock piece. Mountain Pit dragon. Then, finish empty your hand and win within 2 turns.

By the way, the big advantage of R thresh is not the Fledging Dragon, as it will never get threshold (and probably not be played neither, because you are supposed to cut their cantrips). There threat is there red based removal, fire/ice or lightning bolt that get rid of Magus and that can deal with your creatures, the time that the threshold player gets to the surface.

[Arsenal]

But we already have a pretty decent control and combo matchup (Chalice and Moon effects, 3Spheres, and turn 2 beefy threats), so the Equipment helps us with the aggro/mirror matchups. An active Jitte, against anything, is retarded. The fact that Stompy decks can power out a threat + Jitte (and equip it) within the first few turns of the game is just NUTS. I would never drop equipment entirely.

[zulander]

I'd play about 3 jitte, not sure that 1-2 SoFI are needed.

[Arsenal]

I'd play about 3 jitte, not sure that 1-2 SoFI are needed.

I would go down as low as 2 Jitte, as hig as 3 Jitte + 1 Sword. 4 total equipment maximum for me. An active Jitte/Sword is often the difference in the mirror/aggro matchup I've found.

[Maveric78f]

2 Jitte max MD plus additionnal equipments in SB in you fear to face a lot of Stompy decks.

[Rinello]

I would go down as low as 2 Jitte, as hig as 3 Jitte + 1 Sword. 4 total equipment maximum for me. An active Jitte/Sword is often the difference in the mirror/aggro matchup I've found.

3 jitte max:
Double strike + Jitte = Win.

1 Sofi: Dragon + Sofi = no hellbent

Also I am testing 1 Sword of Light and Shadow, so total is 3 Jitte and 1 Sofi + 1 SoLS.

I think equipment is needed, because we can do something like:

2mana_land, + mox or simian = song => Dragon or Slogger
turn2: 2 mana land, 4 mana, Jitte and slay them all.

[Maveric78f]

Rinello > I think that you need 22+ creatures because you play the deck the bad way. Don't play your creatures first, but play the lock pieces. The priority is the lock. Once you have lock, you can fairly play your creatures with no fear to see them countered, removed or whatever. It's more consistent and powerful to have 1trinisphere+1threat than 2threats in hand.

[Zork]

Actually, equipment is needed because many of our threats suck, and only having an equip on the board makes them relevant. See: Magus of the Moon, Spirit Guide, morph/non-bent Raiders, and Sulfur Elemental.

[Maveric78f]

SSG is not a threat, it's a mana provider that can cycle into a low threat.
Magus is not a threat, it's a lock piece that can be in addition a low threat.
Raiders are either morph of hellbent. More often hellbent.

Sulfur Elemental sucks. You're right. Play something else. Crusher or Akroma.

[Rinello]

Rinello > I think that you need 22+ creatures because you play the deck the bad way. Don't play your creatures first, but play the lock pieces. The priority is the lock. Once you have lock, you can fairly play your creatures with no fear to see them countered, removed or whatever. It's more consistent and powerful to have 1trinisphere+1threat than 2threats in hand.

Assuming there's only 1 good way to play this deck, and also assuming that you know it, please post your list and explain your card choice.

Thank you.

[Tacosnape]

Rinello > I think that you need 22+ creatures because you play the deck the bad way. Don't play your creatures first, but play the lock pieces. The priority is the lock. Once you have lock, you can fairly play your creatures with no fear to see them countered, removed or whatever. It's more consistent and powerful to have 1trinisphere+1threat than 2threats in hand.

You're joking, right? How is 1 Trinisphere + 1 Threat possibly more consistent than 2 threats?

1 Swords to Plowshares, Vindicate, or any other targeted removal spell stops 1 Trinisphere and 1 Threat from winning.

1 Swords to Plowshares, Vindicate, or any other targeted removal spell does -not- stop 2 Threats from winning.

What's more, if you need a Chrome Mox to cast either, 1 Trinisphere + 1 Threat = a Trinisphere, where 1 Chrome Mox + 2 Threats = Threat of Choice.

I completely disagree with you about the lock. First of all, there is no lock with Trinisphere in this deck. You can't back up the ability with anything. Trinisphere is circumvented by surviving to turn three, which isn't hard for a deck to do when you're spending one of those first turns playing the Trinisphere. The only -lock- formed n this deck is by Blood Moon, though on occasion Chalice can serve this purpose.

Secondly, Dragon Stompy is an aggro deck. It's the aggro deck. It's the most aggro deck in the format. It can't play the long game with any deck in the format. Most Sui Black builds even have a better long game than Dragon Stompy.

Speed and aggression are what makes this deck thrive, not a pseudo stax-like lock. Sure, I'll take time to play Chalices and Moons if they're relevant, but unloading with a horde of creatures right off the bat is not by any means a losing strategy. On the contrary, done with enough force, speed, and quantity of threats, it's a strategy a lot of decks simply can't cope with.

Dragon Stompy loses when a deck has time to manage its threats. Therefore if you spend a couple turns being slow and dropping stall pieces like Trinisphere, and your opponent's not completely at a very low curve, you're going to find he or she stabilizes pretty quickly.

[zulander]

1 Swords to Plowshares, Vindicate, or any other targeted removal spell does -not- stop 2 Threats from winning.

I'm confused, are you saying if you have 2 creatures and your opponent has swords and vindicate? Or just 1 removal spell?

However I agree with the rest of your points. Aggro decks have to be just that, aggressive. Otherwise you're just playing a bad version of control -without the control-

[mujadaddy]

I'm confused, are you saying if you have 2 creatures and your opponent has swords and vindicate? Or just 1 removal spell? He said "or", so the latter.

[Zork]

SSG is not a threat, it's a mana provider that can cycle into a low threat.
Magus is not a threat, it's a lock piece that can be in addition a low threat.
Raiders are either morph of hellbent. More often hellbent.

Sulfur Elemental sucks. You're right. Play something else. Crusher or Akroma.

Yes, SSG and Magus are not there to primarily be threats; they function as threats secondarily. But they lose that function if you have no equipment. SSG + sword/jitte outraces Tarmogoyf. Raiders are flipped without hellbent plenty, because swinging in for 3 is better than swinging in for 2, but again even a morph raiders can outrace goyf with one piece of equipment. Basically, one piece of equipment makes every card in your deck that is not either a mana source or a lockpiece (and even then some of them) into a threat that must be answered.

Crusher is bad in this deck, straight up, and as the man who brought Akroma into this deck, I can tell you she is not better than Sulfur Elemental 90% of the time. Her purpose, which everyone seemed to completely miss, was not to go massive aggro, but instead to help against stabilization, give us some semblance of a long game, and to turn bad topdecks (mana) into better ones against decks that focus on card pairity.

[Parcher]

Dragon Stompy is an aggro deck. It's the aggro deck. It's the most aggro deck in the format. It can't play the long game with any deck in the format.

Excellent point. I am so happy that someone finally had the sense to put it this way. I never thought of it in these terms before. Great work!


Dragon Stompy loses when a deck has time to manage its threats.

Another good thought. I was having difficulty in determining why I kept losing.


Therefore if you spend a couple turns being slow and dropping stall pieces like Trinisphere, and your opponent's not completely at a very low curve, you're going to find he or she stabilizes pretty quickly.

Of course. So the obvious course of action would be to not play the Trinisphere during the first couple of turns. This allows you to play more threats. It doesn't really matter if your opponent doesn't get to play Magic for their first three turns if they can just stabilize and beat you after that. I think maybe I'll replace Trinisphere with an additional threat, and see how that works.

[Maveric78f]

However I agree with the rest of your points. Aggro decks have to be just that, aggressive. Otherwise you're just playing a bad version of control -without the control-

The point is that your opponent is not going to be able to play his removal before taking X dmg if you play Trinisphere in first place.

By the way, DS is a fast aggro-control deck. Actually, Trinisphere is not really comparable to a creature but to an equipment. Trinisphere is somehow at least a 2-turns time walk. The equipment is a 2 turns time walk (enabling you to kill faster. The equipment has another nice property: winning against other stompy decks (I don't see another other one). And it's a decent topdeck contrary to trinisphere. But a first-turn Trinisphere does not need to be equipped to be effective, and it mostly gives the game against combo and threshold.


Speed and aggression are what makes this deck thrive, not a pseudo stax-like lock. Sure, I'll take time to play Chalices and Moons if they're relevant, but unloading with a horde of creatures right off the bat is not by any means a losing strategy. On the contrary, done with enough force, speed, and quantity of threats, it's a strategy a lot of decks simply can't cope with.

Then stop playing moon effects and chalice, as well as trinisphere. Play 30 threats and 8 equipments. It will be the aggro deck then. It will also be a very deck.

Against Threshold, the game plan is not as simple as stating who is control and who is aggro. In order to win, you NEED a lock piece. Playing any threat before is almost a mistake. 1st turn Chalice, second turn trini or magus are what you want to do (or even better first turn magus or trini, then chalice@2). You never want to do 1st turn Dragon, 2nd turn hellbent. That would be crazy.

That is the same logic against combo.

Against Gob, quite the same when you're on the play. Moon effects are useless but 1st turn chalice and trinisphere are very powerful. On the draw, you will prefer equipments of course.

Against stompy decks, of course lock pieces are all almost useless. But they are a very small part in my meta.

Against control decks like landstill or life from the loam, chalice is good @2, trinisphere is great, moon effects are very strong if played early. All of them certainly better than equipments.

I can't believe the creator of the deck can say so irrelevant things.

[DalkonCledwin]

I am in agreement with Maverick, it is only against a very small number of the population of decks out there in the world that you do not need a Lock piece on the first or second turns.

The exception really being only against other Dragonstompy decks, in which case I would still seek a lock piece against them in the second game. Namely Pithing Needle set to either Red Akroma, or Pit Dragon... possibly even both! I know this would cripple me as well as my opponent, but unlike my opponent, I would be more than prepared for this crippling and capable of working around it! Likewise I think that against mirror matches the Sword of Fire and Ice can act as a sort of lock piece as well... not to mention Blood Moon slowing both decks down considerably. So it is all a matter of who has the better build, and who is more capable of adapting to the changes brought on post sideboard!

[jamest]

Dragon Stompy is an aggro deck. It's the aggro deck. It's the most aggro deck in the format. It can't play the long game with any deck in the format.
There's nothing aggro about Chalice or Blood Moon. This deck plays Magus, a 2/2 for 3, when bigger aggro creatures are available at the same mana cost or less. Maybe there's something more than aggro to the concept of this deck. And maybe the deck would be much weaker without those non-aggro elements.


I can't believe the creator of the deck can say so irrelevant things.
Creator doesn't mean someone understands the deck or is all that creative. This deck is simply derived from taking the 5/3 aggro prison concept and fitting a color. In my deck database, I call this deck "Red 5/3". I call Faerie Stompy, "Blue 5/3". I'm sure someone else has come up with black, green, white, and mix color versions of the same idea. Pick a new color combination and you can be a "creator" too.


The priority is the lock.
I agree.

[Maveric78f]

Cathal83 and jamest: thank you. I felt really lonely on this point.

By the way, I'm not a DS stompy player, but I know the MUs of my decks against it.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

This deck is simply derived from taking the 5/3 aggro prison concept and fitting a color.Although Dragon Stompy is a descendant of 5/3, it deck comes a long way from its origins. That deck played things like Crucible of Words, Smokestack, and Tangle Wire. Although 5/3 sometimes splashed colours, they are not the same. The only similarities between 5/3 and Dragon/Faerie Stompy are the mana base and Chalice of the Void. They have different strengths, weaknesses, and overall strategies.

[Jaiminho]

Saying this deck is aggro-control would make every other aggro deck be called aggro-control. It would be like calling Goyf Sligh aggro-control simply because that deck can kill creatures.

You have no way of controlling anything. If the opponent wants to destroy your creatures, they will. If opponent wants to bounce all your locks, they will. If opponent wants to clear the board, they will. If the opponent wants to discard all your threats, they will. And there is nothing you can do about it, because it's an aggro deck with some lock stuff. Hell, this deck also is permanently in topdeck mode. There's almost nothing about control in it.

Being aggro doesn't mean the entire deck has to support the idea of hitting the opponent in the face... else, Elves would be tier 1, because that's all it can do.

[theross]

Saying this deck is aggro-control would make every other aggro deck be called aggro-control. It would be like calling Goyf Sligh aggro-control simply because that deck can kill creatures.

You have no way of controlling anything. If the opponent wants to destroy your creatures, they will. If opponent wants to bounce all your locks, they will. If opponent wants to clear the board, they will. If the opponent wants to discard all your threats, they will. And there is nothing you can do about it, because it's an aggro deck with some lock stuff. Hell, this deck also is permanently in topdeck mode. There's almost nothing about control in it.

Being aggro doesn't mean the entire deck has to support the idea of hitting the opponent in the face... else, Elves would be tier 1, because that's all it can do.

Blood Moon, Chalice of the Void, and Trinisphere are all cards aimed at controlling your opponent's strategic options. Of course being an aggro deck does not mean that the entire deck has to do that, but being a "pure aggro" deck means that the deck should optimally aim to use all possible resources to lower it's opponent's life total as quickly as possible (such as tarmosligh), which is what tacosnape implied in his post. The monikers "aggro, control, and combo" all deal with the optimal gameplan of a deck rather than the cards contained in them, although these cards are somtimes unique to a certain gameplan. The notion that this deck should operate as a pure aggro deck is incorrect.

This deck aims to shut down it's opponents resources as fast as possible, and does that well with the 3 most powerful and versatile cards in the format in that respect: Trinisphere, Blood Moon Effects, and Chalice of the Void (note: not listed in any particular order). Versatility and overall power is also the reason Pithing Needle is excellent in the sideboard. These cards are optimally played first so that the threats themselves become much harder to answer, and thus better.

Similarly, the threats in this deck are also incredibly powerful and versatile. Magus doubles as a disruption piece, while Pit-Dragon, Gathan Raiders, and Arc-Slogger all provide a quick clock, which is necessary as the deck generally does not achieve a hard lock like stax decks. In this way, the deck resmbles 5/3.

The manabase of the deck is optimally built to take advantage of the power of these cards, while making the disruption pieces one-sided and maximizing their effectiveness.

To this end, the deck is clearly not a pure aggro deck and should generally not be played as such (Dredge may be an exception if you have the nuts draw with pit-dragon for example). An average draw for this deck will aim to drop 1-2 disruption pieces followed by 1-2 threats, trying to win probably by about turn 6 I would say. This is in contrast to decks such as tarmosligh which optimally try to win on turn 4 or so. I would much rather have an opening with trinisphere and one threat versus 2 threats as without any disruption, your deck undoubtedly falls victim to the incredible defensive spells in the format (see: STP, Deed, FOW, etc.). Without the awesome disruption pieces your deck is just a collection of slightly clunky creatures which is just worse than decks like goblins and such.

Please don't misunderstand the goals of the deck simply by oggling at turn 1 Arc-Sloggers and Pit-Dragons attacking for 20 in one turn, this really isn't what the deck is supposed to do.

[savemysoul]

i dunno what are you saying that against a mirror 3sphere suxs. first turn 3sphere stops theyr mox. first turn moon stops they :2: lands. O and akroma isn`t a aggro creature. most of the time you can`t even unmorph her so she kinda suxs.

Verbal Warning. Your ability to communicate affects how seriously we take your ideas and, more importantly, you. It's a cruel, harsh, unfair world. Clean up your posts. (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=174024&postcount=2)

-PR

[Peter_Rotten]

It is unfortunate that the Dragon Stompy thread is becoming the new burn thread: in other words, it's becoming a Mod's nightmare.

First, please follow the rules of coventional written English. Capitalize when necessary.

Second, just because you're on the Internet, doesn't mean you have to write like you're on the Internet. Keep all the coolz l33t sp34k in the Mish Mash forum. kthxbai.*

This thread is being watched.







*See; it's annoying.

[Jak]

This thread is getting dumb. If you are not playing this deck like an aggro deck, then you are playing it wrong. Saying that it is not an aggro deck because it runs Moons, Chalice and Trini is dumb. They not only hamper your opponents strategy, but also protect your own. Moons also win games.

Trinisphere is good. Go ahead and run it in your meta. Just don't force other people to when they run more Moons and threats. Not all metas are the same.

Edit- Thank you PR

[J.V.]

I agree with Jak. (and this is coming from someone who has been Playing DS since MotM was printed) DS is, always was, and always will be an Aggro deck! It runs disruption in the same since that MBA decks had it in Hulk-Flashes era, they slow your opponent long enough for you to deal lethal damage, thats about the extend of your disruptive power. (Don't get me wrong there are games where you simple cast blood moon and win, but the deck isn't usually looking to do that.)

[overseer1234]

I think this is an agro-disruption deck, becaus unlike most disruption found in agro, our disruption pieces aren't one trick pony's and last for the remainder of the game unless something removes them.

Here's my version of dragon stompy, which I enjoy playing:

Maindeck
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Chrome Mox
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
3x Trinisphere
2x Umezawa’s Jitte

1x Akroma, Angel of Fury
3x Arc-Slogger
4x Gathan Raiders
4x Magus of the Moon
4x Rakdos Pit Dragon
4x Simian Spirit Guide
2x Sulfur Elemental

2x Blood Moon

4x Seething Song

4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
10x Snow-Covered Mountain

Sideboard
4x Pithing Needle
4x Tormod’s Crypt
1x Trinisphere
2x Blood Moon
4x Pyroclasm

I replaced 1 slogger with an Akroma, because Slogger thends to show up at 4 mana and then all my puppets suddenly shrink, while I can play akroma for 3 and keep hellbent.

The sideboard isn't completely finished and needs work, and the pyroclasm's are gonna become powder kegg's, or something like that (no pyrokenesis because of the 3-sphere).

This deck play a lot like 5/3 (played it myself), and whitout a trinisphere, blood moon/magus, or a chalice your threats are to easy to remove, so you just can't go all in with creatures the first turn, without making sure that they're not easily removed.

And I've been thinking about adding Dwarven Blastminer (in the sulfur elemental and akroma slot), because together with trinisphere we can easily lock the opponent out of the game, which is similar to the crucible/wasteland lock.

[Mental]

I would also call this deck an aggro deck:
An aggro deck, it seems to me, tries to get down damage as fast as possible before it runs out of steam. Take Goyf Sligh. If it runs out of threats, it ends the game with burn to the face.
This deck plays like that even if it does it more subtly. It drops lock pieces as a way of forcing through its beats, just as Goyf Sligh burns out blockers as a way of forcing through its. That doens't make the aggro control decks, just aggro deck that don't suck.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Who care what type of deck this is? It's a deck that runs creatures and disruption. Enough, new page, new start. To steer conversation else where;

What would be a better sideboard card, Pyroclasm or Pyrokenisis?

On one hand, Pyrokenisis is instant speed and can take out larger threats. On the other hand, Pyroclasm can deal with more creatures at once and only cost two. Can the deck reliably keep another red card in hand to Pyrokenisis when necessary? Is the two damage from Pyroclasm enough to be depend on?

[Rinello]

I think that this deck is risky, so 4 Pyrokinesis will be good, even if we cannot pitch a card to it.

We care about hellbent, so I prefer Pyrokinesis now.
Clasm is good against untargettable like Mongoose, but we don't care, our big guys will kill it anyway :)

[Zork]

Honestly, Pyrokinesis' instant speed makes it relevant against some combo decks, while also usually being a board clear against goblins (plus it can remove one of the scariest goblins, Wort) and EoT removal against decks like Eva Green where you need to hope to outtempo them.

Pyroclasm, on the other hand, can sometimes kill an extra guy or two, but also kills many of your own guys unless they are equipped.

Pyrokinesis.

[moOnsteak]

I find that pitch a red card is not as easy as it looks like so I'll choose Pyroclasm. .I still need more experience to decide what red card to be pitched for Chrome Mox so additional spell like that will be nightmare for me. .
This deck has enough disruption to slow opponent down so sorcery speed won't be a problem. .

This is your last verbal warning for poor posting. Please see our site rules (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7455) and shape up. - Bardo

[Tacosnape]

Honestly, Pyrokinesis' instant speed makes it relevant against some combo decks, while also usually being a board clear against goblins (plus it can remove one of the scariest goblins, Wort) and EoT removal against decks like Eva Green where you need to hope to outtempo them.

Pyroclasm, on the other hand, can sometimes kill an extra guy or two, but also kills many of your own guys unless they are equipped.

Pyrokinesis.

I am coming to this conclusion myself. Pyrokinesis is proving slightly stronger in the average metagame than Pyroclasm. It's instant speed and it costs 0 mana. There are times when I really do want Pyroclasm, such as against Goblins and against ETW-packing combo, but Pyrokinesis is still good against these matchups.

However, Pyrokinesis and Chrome Mox together cause a heavy burden on your threat count, so you have to be very careful when using these cards and figure out what to pitch when and where. I'm not altogether convinced a 2/2 split isn't as strong as 4 Pyrokinesis, however, Pyrokinesis at least pitches to other Pyrokinesis, so perhaps not.

What I do like most about Pyrokinesis is that it is at its absolute strongest when you're not getting enough mana. If Dragon Stompy curves out just right, I find it to be an incredible powerhouse, but with too much or too little mana, it suffers greatly. Pyrokinesis at least fixes one of these problems.

[TheCramp]

Thanks for posting your list. For the record, I ripped this deck off from you and Phantom and have had a blast with it. I was a stax player and trini is the monster in that build. (I used Braids and Stax, that is a hard lock with Trini my friends...) and was having a hard time even thinking of cutting trini because of my success with that card in another deck. But I had the same observation. Lost more games with the mid game draw than won with the first turn drop. We test with dragon stompy a lot as a base line AGGRO match up, right along with goblins. It helps. Losing to DS is a learning experience about your curve. Any weakness in it is fully illustrated by this match-up. More so than even CB control. CB punishes you for being 1-2 drop heavy. DS attacks decks the same way w/ CotV and trini, but also punish you for not being fast enough to respond and get tempo. Now if that isn't an aggro situation, I don't know what is.

Edit: As I test with and vs. goblins alot, and have even been doing some DS-goblins match ups I have to say that being able to kill Wort is a big deal. Warren Weirding is powerful against DS, a barrage of them is frown town. She is must kill, and even powering up Jitte enough can be hard. So Pyrokinesis is keen in my book.

Well Taco, wasted life says he doesn't read the TES forum, so I guess you're off the hook.

[Tacosnape]

Out of curiosity, has anyone actually sat around and done serious testing with 4 Akroma, Angel of Fury in a 24-threat build? Or 3 in a 23, for that matter? I'm contemplating trying this out despite my brain telling me it's not a great idea, but I've been testing the deck so much lately I sort of need a break from it.

[J.V.]

Out of curiosity, has anyone actually sat around and done serious testing with 4 Akroma, Angel of Fury in a 24-threat build? Or 3 in a 23, for that matter? I'm contemplating trying this out despite my brain telling me it's not a great idea, but I've been testing the deck so much lately I sort of need a break from it.

I've actually done it although like you I assumed it would be a bad idea. As we both pre-concluded it doesn't work well you end up with a 2/2 Morph that you can't unmorph most games you play them. I Personally Feel we should just not play Akroma AoF and just run:
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Magus of the Moon
3 Arc-Slogger
3 Taurean Mauler
as the threats this particular 22 threat count has been magnificent for me.

[Tacosnape]

@Jan: Strange. I haven't liked Taurean Mauler, although he's not bad early on. I find that with Chalice and Moon, my opponent doesn't play many spells, and if they stop Chalice and Moon, I struggle to keep them from removing my threats anyway. What's your metagame like? I'm curious to know what Mauler's been thriving in for you.

[Maveric78f]

Still according to me the perfect DS build is done like this:
30 mana sources (10 mountains, 8 2manalands, 4 chromemox, 4 SSG, 4 Seething)
16 lock pieces (8 moon, 4 trini, 4 chalice)
14 beaters (4 Raiders, 4 Dragons, 3/4 Arc-Slogger, 2/3 ???)

For the unknown slots:
- Taurean Mauler is bad because your locks prevent your opponent from playing. If your lock works, then you have a vanilla 2/2. If it does not, then you're probably ------ up.
- Sulfur Elemental is bad because it's only a 3/2. The good thing about it is that it is uncounterable which is really fine, even with lock pieces. but striking only for 3 is bad in the strategy I explained earlier.
- Akroma: it's good because it looks like a Gathan Raiders but it's bad because it's not a Gathan Raider. Unmorph is very random, but once unmorphed it's really a bomb. I'm not decided on it.
- Countryside Crusher: the casting cost is quite problematic, requiring RR, but eventually, with moons and all the mana acceleration, it's not that much a constraint. It provides topdecks as long as it gets bigger. the problem with it is that it can be risky to play it when you are low on mana sources.
- Masticores : quite nice but the upkeep cost is completely unplayable with hellbent and not being pitchable to chrome mox is quite a problem too. They get rid of chump blockers and make your magus/SSG attack. However, in my strategy, I don"t thing that you'll need several threats at the same time. Maybe on of the best shots.

I don't know if you considered other creatures.

Edit: mmm forgot Chandra Nalaar. Looks solid too. I mean 12 dmg in 3 turns, it's really great.

[Rinello]

My list is not the perfect one, but I use it like a primer or an archetype... ok,let's do this:

22 creatures.
4 Magus of the moon - utility
4 Simian Spirit guide - utility
4 Rakdos pit dragon
4 Gathan Raiders
3 Arcslogger
2 Sulfur Elemental
1 Akroma - Stompy

18 lands.
10 Mountain
4+4 :2: lands

8 mana.
4 Chome mox
4 Seething song

total so far: 48.

Lock-
4 Chalice of the void
+
3 trinisphere +1 Blood Moon = THIS IS JUST A META CALL, YOU CAN SPLIT THIS SLOT THE WAY YOU LIKE.

Equipment
4 slot.
I use 3 Jitte and 1 Sofi. 4 is good in my opinion.


---

SB:

4 slot: mine is 1 trinisphere and 3 Blood Moon. Your slot should depend on your maindeck choice.

3 pithing needle
4 tormod's crypt
4 PyroSOMETHING



*****************

OK, now: is this list something we can start from?

:smile:

[Maveric78f]

Rinello > your argumentation is very interesting. If I did a 20lines argumentation, it's not to be answered with an explanation-free list.

Zulander > Right. But playing a lock (chalice/pillar/trinisphere) is often far better, mostly because even with the perfect hand Taco's signature described, he needs a very random topdeck to have that 2nd turn kill, and he is likely to be killed on turn 1 or 2 of the combo player anyway. With a turn1 chalice or trini, that is absolutely impossible.

[Peter_Rotten]

Who care what type of deck this is? It's a deck that runs creatures and disruption. Enough, new page, new start.

Agreed. Further discussion about the deck's archetype will be deleted. If needed, warnings will be issued.

[zulander]

Rinello > your argumentation is very interesting. If I did a 20lines argumentation, it's not to be answered with an explanation-free list.

Zulander > Right. But playing a lock (chalice/pillar/trinisphere) is often far better, mostly because even with the perfect hand Taco's signature described, he needs a very random topdeck to have that 2nd turn kill, and he is likely to be killed on turn 1 or 2 of the combo player anyway. With a turn1 chalice or trini, that is absolutely impossible.
The only thing that he would have been unable to play was a 5cc card like arc slogger. I'll take my chances of top decking a 3 of with 52 cards in my deck if it means I win on turn 2-3. Mulling to 6-5 looking for a lock piece < winning turn 2-3. If they combo out then oh well because the hand that was given to you has made you the aggro player and combo the control one, and unfortunately combo is not a good control deck.

[Bovinious]

Out of curiosity, has anyone actually sat around and done serious testing with 4 Akroma, Angel of Fury in a 24-threat build? Or 3 in a 23, for that matter? I'm contemplating trying this out despite my brain telling me it's not a great idea, but I've been testing the deck so much lately I sort of need a break from it.

You know shes a legend right? Anyways I dont think more than 1-2 Akroma is right, I think that many is justified because she is never dead, being a 2/2 for :3:.

Also, why are people running less than 4 Arc Slogger? Its pretty much the strongest creature in the deck except a hellbent RPD.

[savemysoul]

Still according to me the perfect DS build is done
- Taurean Mauler is bad because your locks prevent your opponent from playing. If your lock works, then you have a vanilla 2/2. If it does not, then you're probably ------ up.


But if your opponent doesn`t play any spells, cuz of your lock pieces, than mauler is a 10-turn clock ? any thoughts on this ? If they play something and don`t have removal he`s just bigger.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Also, why are people running less than 4 Arc Slogger? Its pretty much the strongest creature in the deck except a hellbent RPD.The five mana can be hard to reach later in the game, especially with moons out.
But if your opponent doesn`t play any spells, cuz of your lock pieces, than mauler is a 10-turn clock ? any thoughts on this ? If they play something and don`t have removal he`s just bigger.That's ten turns of your opponent not playing any thing. The only things he could be doing involve man lands, 42Lands, and Ichorid. Any other deck will either play spells, or lose.

[Tacosnape]

You know shes a legend right?

When will this ever become relevant? When you manage to get the mana to flip two of them over?

While I mostly agree 4 is probably too much, Red Akroma's going to usually be a 2/2 morphed guy. She's going to draw removal because people fear she's a Gathan Raiders or fear you might flip her. She's going to be the first card imprinted on Chrome or pitched to Pyrokinesis, and she's very often going to be used to flip a Gathan Raiders. But games will arise when you flip her, and you will win. She ends the game insanely fast on her own, and she's a complete nightmare to get rid of. You can't STP her, you can't Vindicate her, it's going to be rare that you can Deed her, and if you ever somehow get the mana to hardcast her, they can't counter her either. Chances are they'll just counter the Seething Song you play before you cast her, but if they don't know you have Akroma, it'll go through. Alternately, if they -do- know you have Akroma, you can use midgame Seething Songs to actually bluff-bait counters.

The point of all of this, which I've now digressed from, is that you will almost never need to flip more than one.

[Phantom]

This has me wanting to test a build with all my Sloggers (3 right now) replaced with Akromas. I like the fact that they have to waste their removal BEFORE I use my Song, and the fact that getting hellbent would be like a breeze in this build. I understand that I'd be losing that whole turn 1-2 Slogger, whoops I win factor (not that a flipped angel doesn't act similar), and that we'd be more vunerable to burn removal than ever, but I want to try it.

[theross]

I still don't see Akroma being better than Taurean Mauler. You arugue that Akroma will never be dead since you can morph her but in that situation, she's just a worse Mauler. Mauler will always be better than a 2/2 since if your opponent doesn't play spells, you are winning the game (With the possible exception of Dredge). While this might not matter against most combo decks, neither will Akroma so there is still a slight edge for Mauler since there can be situations arising where they spend some spells trying to get through your disruption and that gives you a faster clock. The only times I really see Akroma being better is when you're in the mid-late game and mana flooded, which is bad for you, or you gain some advantage with the Gathan Raiders bluff, which won't happen too often. That being said, I'm still not sure Mauler is better than Sulfur Elemental, his flash ability has been quite useful.