[Deck] Dragon Stompy

[Tacosnape]

They're all really close. Sulfur Elemental's flash is very nice as a pseudo-removal spell. Akroma's a game-breaking threat when you can flip her. And Mauler's just nice and consistently mediocre-to-good. There are situations where it's fairly logical to want any of the three of them.

However, the less equipment I run, the more I find myself wanting the removal of Sulfur Elemental or the evasion of a flipped Akroma. I need to do some serious testing with Mauler over the next week or two to get a better feel for him, though.

[J.V.]

@Jan: Strange. I haven't liked Taurean Mauler, although he's not bad early on. I find that with Chalice and Moon, my opponent doesn't play many spells, and if they stop Chalice and Moon, I struggle to keep them from removing my threats anyway. What's your metagame like? I'm curious to know what Mauler's been thriving in for you.
My Meta has a lot of Thresh, some Goyf Sligh, Angel Stax, Cephalid Breakfast, some MBA, 1 Faerie Stompy, a few Goblins, 1 Meathooks (Mauler has fun agains't this deck... :wink: ) , a few Ichorid Decks, landstill, storm variants, and some random. Also to add to this my build has been cut down to Just 3 Umezawa's Jitte for equipment which makes Sulfer Elemental and Akroma less appealing.

[technogeek5000]

How does this look for a list. It has alot more denial then normal builds, running 7 moons effects while still running 4 chalice and 3 3sphere. This is a big reason as to why i dont run taurean mauler. Akroma is pretty good but its extremely expensive so i run 1.

4 Chrome mox
4 City of traitors
4 Ancient tomb
10 mountain
4 Seething song
4 Magus of the moon
3 Blood moon
4 Chalice of the void
3 Trinisphere
4 SSG's
4 Gathan raiders
4 Rakdos pit dragon
3 arc slogger
3 jitte
2 Sulfur
1 Akroma

[DalkonCledwin]

I honestly don't like sword less build's anymore... Swords of Light and Shadows helps against the Burn, Angel Stompy, and MBA match ups, while Sword of Fire and Ice helps against Burn, Dragon Stompy, MUC, and numerous other match ups. Honestly I think that decks that don't use one or the other (possibly even both) are asking for trouble. Meanwhile Decks that don't utilize Jitte's are also asking for trouble. Which is one more reason for taking out the 3sphere's as it allows for people to load up on more equipment cards.

[deviant]

To add something to this discussion about metagame calls and creature selection - why is Flametongue Kavu neglected?

I mean, it's a great card. I'm thinking of running it as a 2-of, perhaps a little because my meta has quite a lot of fairie stompy and it is obviously good against it. But still, if you have no targets for it you can do the usual hide under mox/feed raiders thing, but when you have targets... Yay, we have "board control elements".

If pyrokinesis is discussed as maindeckable I think it's time to reconsider ftk.
Or am I missing something obvious? ( Besides Tarmogoyf. )

[theross]

I tried FTK early on in my testing of the deck as it seemed really solid but it is not that impressive. I could see him in the board as Faerie Stompy is probably where he shines most though. The problem I saw was that getting a 2 toughness guy for 4 almost always set you up to trade him for their 2 drop, which is really bad for this deck.

[Mayk0l]

As a former Thresh player I never really had to mulligan. The once-in-a-blue-moon mulligan I had to take with Thresh was basically the no-land hand. DS, however, forces me to consider it quite often, and I go down to six, even five quite a lot. But due to the fact that I like turn 1 lock (be it chalice or a moon effect) backed up by turn 2-3 threat, and taking a mulligan reduces the odds of getting that play, I was wondering what kind of hands you guys usually mulligan? I typed up some examples below. What would you do with the following hands:

(I know it depends on what you're playing against but just try to consider these hands in general)

1) CotV, Mountain, SSG, Mox, Mox, Blood Moon, Seething Song
This hand offers a powerful lock early game, but lacks in threats

2) Tomb, Mountain, SSG, Raiders, Raiders, Seething Song, Mox
This hand offers threats and pressure early game, but has difficulty enabling Hellbent (unless you want to waste the cards in your hand). It lacks in locks, and a deck with removal might take advantage of this fact.

3) Tomb, City, RPD, Seething Song, CotV, MotM, Jitte
This hand is pretty powerful if you draw a red source. Do you wait and hope to draw that red source, as you have eighteen in your deck, and have not yet drawn a single one?

4) Mox, Mox, MotM, Blood Moon, Mountain, SSG, Trinisphere
This hand might be worth playing, but how much of your hand do you want to contribute to speed? Turn one Magus, Moon or Trinisphere is doable, but eats up a lot of your hand. How to play this? Mountain --> go?
Also: if you do not know what your opponent is playing, do you drop turn1 Blood Moon or turn 1 Magus?

5) Mountain, Mox, SSG, Slogger, RPD, MotM, SSG
This is a similar example; it offers an explosive start at the cost of almost your entire hand. Without a :2:mana land it's often possible to make that 3-drop turn one; is it worth it? Do you wait?
Do you drop turn one MotM or turn one RPD? Dropping MotM means cutting yourself out of turn 2 RPD.
Consider this hand if it were:
6) Mountain, Mox, SSG, Slogger, RPD, MotM, CotV
Would that change it?

And finally:

7) Tomb, SSG, MotM, RPD, Trinisphere, CotV, Blood Moon
I get this quite often; in general number 7 is basically a hand that nails you a three-drop turn one, but leaves you at two mana turn 2 (if you drop trinisphere), or more often: at one mana if you drop MotM or Blood Moon as they turn the :2:land into a mountain. What to do with hands that mean a turn 1 drop for you, but leaves you out of the mana turn 2?

[Maveric78f]

For all of them, I consider that I'm g1 on the play so that I have absolutely no information on my opponent's deck.


1) CotV, Mountain, SSG, Mox, Mox, Blood Moon, Seething Song
This hand offers a powerful lock early game, but lacks in threats

I keep. I play mountain mox on Song chalice@1, pass.
Turn 2 depending on my draw, and on my opponen't play I would play (more probably) moon or (less probably) SSG, by imprinting the other one under the other mox.


2) Tomb, Mountain, SSG, Raiders, Raiders, Seething Song, Mox
This hand offers threats and pressure early game, but has difficulty enabling Hellbent (unless you want to waste the cards in your hand). It lacks in locks, and a deck with removal might take advantage of this fact.

I would not keep. No lock = no way.


3) Tomb, City, RPD, Seething Song, CotV, MotM, Jitte
This hand is pretty powerful if you draw a red source. Do you wait and hope to draw that red source, as you have eighteen in your deck, and have not yet drawn a single one?

I don't keep because Chalice is a too weak lock element. If there were trinisphere instead of jitte, I would have kept though...


4) Mox, Mox, MotM, Blood Moon, Mountain, SSG, Trinisphere
This hand might be worth playing, but how much of your hand do you want to contribute to speed? Turn one Magus, Moon or Trinisphere is doable, but eats up a lot of your hand. How to play this? Mountain --> go?
Also: if you do not know what your opponent is playing, do you drop turn1 Blood Moon or turn 1 Magus?

Turn 1 trinisphere of course! (mountain, moxSSG, moxBM, turn1 trini).
Turn 2 magus.
Then beatdown hope of death from your opponent and topdeck from you. It may be very riskey though.


5) Mountain, Mox, SSG, Slogger, RPD, MotM, SSG
This is a similar example; it offers an explosive start at the cost of almost your entire hand. Without a :2:mana land it's often possible to make that 3-drop turn one; is it worth it? Do you wait?
Turn 1 Magus with slogger under the mox. If I play against gob or burn I'm clearly ...... up but against the rest of the meta, it's very strong.


Do you drop turn one MotM or turn one RPD? Dropping MotM means cutting yourself out of turn 2 RPD.
With my play, if I draw a land I can play RPD.


Consider this hand if it were:
6) Mountain, Mox, SSG, Slogger, RPD, MotM, CotV
Would that change it?
Clearly chalice turn 1 with slogger under mox. Then probably turn 2 magus. And wait to topdeck mana.


7) Tomb, SSG, MotM, RPD, Trinisphere, CotV, Blood Moon
I get this quite often; in general number 7 is basically a hand that nails you a three-drop turn one, but leaves you at two mana turn 2 (if you drop trinisphere), or more often: at one mana if you drop MotM or Blood Moon as they turn the :2:land into a mountain. What to do with hands that mean a turn 1 drop for you, but leaves you out of the mana turn 2?
This hand is not that poor because of chalice. after chalice@1, you can check what your opponent plays. Usually you'll want to play magus on turn2. But be careful because wasteland is a huge threat to this kind of hands. I'm really unsure of what I would do.

[sunshine]

just a quick question, and keep in mind i haven't read every single post in this thread so if the answer is somewhere here already just point me to the relevant post.

Are we sure that zero is the correct number of fetch lands to play in this deck? I've seen many DS lists and never a single fetch land.

[Ranarion]

just a quick question, and keep in mind i haven't read every single post in this thread so if the answer is somewhere here already just point me to the relevant post.

Are we sure that zero is the correct number of fetch lands to play in this deck? I've seen many DS lists and never a single fetch land.

I think zero is the right number. There´s no sense of fetchlands in DS. You lose one life. Yeah, sounds great. Especially in addition to the lifeloss of the tombs. You don´t gain any advantage of shuffling your deck and you don´t splash any colours. So, what is the sense of fetchlands in DS?

[Rinello]

How does this look for a list. It has alot more denial then normal builds, running 7 moons effects while still running 4 chalice and 3 3sphere. This is a big reason as to why i dont run taurean mauler. Akroma is pretty good but its extremely expensive so i run 1.

4 Chrome mox
4 City of traitors
4 Ancient tomb
10 mountain
4 Seething song
4 Magus of the moon
3 Blood moon
4 Chalice of the void
3 Trinisphere
4 SSG's
4 Gathan raiders
4 Rakdos pit dragon
3 arc slogger
3 jitte
2 Sulfur
1 Akroma

this deck is 61 cards.

*********

I think that we don't need fetchlands, 10 mountains are very few and if we topdeck a land we can drop it and mantain hellbent even if mana is low (as sometimes is, when we used up our SSG or seething songs)

Flametongue Kavu is bad:
Killed by a Mongoose and must be played after an opponent plays a creature.
we want to LOCK our opponent, so we hope he does not have any creature on board.

If you want to test some stuff,
try Pyrokinesis, Char or Fireblast.

[sunshine]

playing fetchlands, even when you don't need access to more than one color, still thins your deck and increases your threat density thereby improving your draws - the only real reason not to play any at all is if you actually want to draw lands in the mid to late game (yes, there is life-loss as well but one point is hardly relevant).

I guess this means the question really is how often do you find yourself actually wanting to topdeck lands? I've never played this deck outside of a testing session.

[Aznopium]

first time poster.
i been playing w/ dstompy and proxying the mauler in.

My thoughts:

Taurean Mauler is really solid if you can get out first turn on the play
(SSG/Tomb/Traitors, however you get him out)

Opponents have to deal with him early on it just grows out of hand. Had it up to 6/6 and so forth.

The mauler is relateivly weaker in the late game. usually not as a strong impact in the long game. My take is that mauler is good early and average mid-game.

[Mayk0l]

Maveric78f I quote: "You should play it like an aggroish Stax" which is how you said you'd play Dragon Stompy.
I've heard other people disagree on this, saying Dragon Stompy is thé most aggressive deck in the format right now, and should be played as such.
There has already been, however, a warning on posts about the deck's archetype, so I will leave it at that.
However I do want to ask to the players who seem to play this deck very aggressively (like Tacosnape if I'm not mistaken), how they would play hand like:
2) Tomb, Mountain, SSG, Raiders, Raiders, Seething Song, Mox, along with other hands that sport several threats (exluding MotM) but no locks.


Maveric78f: Comparing hand 1 to 3, you keep hand 1 with the option of hardcasting SSG as a 2/2, but mulligan hand 3. If I understand correctly, you consider Chalice of the Void a powerful turn 1 drop if backed up by a threat turn 2, but can a SSG be considered a threat in this situation?
Chances are, you draw a red source; and can go for the MotM/Jitte equip with hand 3. What's the difference that makes you keep hand 1, and mulligan hand 3?

Hand 5: My first thought was also that turn 1 MotM is better than turn one RPD anyday. So in this situation you would wait for a red source, agreed

Hand 7 is, in my opinion, one of those really difficult ones. It can go explosive if the topdeck works for you, but you could be completely screwed over if it doesn't. A lot of times it's quite difficult to decide if turn 1 MotM/Blood Moon is worth cutting yourself out of the mana. Perhaps the right way to go is indeed Chalice for 1 turn one, so that you get at least one topdeck to shoot for three mana at least once without using SSG.
With this specific hand I would probably go for turn 1 Trinisphere (and pray the opponent doesn't have Wasteland) to buy myself some time to topdeck that Mountain or Mox, instead of CotV 1. Turn 1 MotM would be the way to go I guess if you know you're playing an opponent who can't handle it (like Fetch-reliant decks, Landstill, Threshold most of the time).

Hand 7 is also a strange hand, being the only one that gives you acces to any of your locks turn 1. Be it Trini, Moon or Chalice. How do you decide which one you play first, if you don't know what your opponent is running?

Hand 7 becomes even more difficult if you get it on a mulligan and you don't have Chalice or Trinisphere. Meaning, you get the same mana-problem situation but with a Lockpiece less.

How do you guys handle situations like this?
What's the most powerful lockpiece when you're up against John Doe?

[HSCK]

On the play, I'd have to go with Trinisphere unless you're facing another Dragon Stompy deck. While Chalice and Moons are stronger, if you're facing DS, Deadguy Ale or another deck packing high disruption with basics those cards come up dead. Chalice for 1 is usually a good play, BUT a Trinisphere will almost always give you time to create a game plan.

[Tacosnape]

(I know it depends on what you're playing against but just try to consider these hands in general)

1) CotV, Mountain, SSG, Mox, Mox, Blood Moon, Seething Song
This hand offers a powerful lock early game, but lacks in threats

2) Tomb, Mountain, SSG, Raiders, Raiders, Seething Song, Mox
This hand offers threats and pressure early game, but has difficulty enabling Hellbent (unless you want to waste the cards in your hand). It lacks in locks, and a deck with removal might take advantage of this fact.

3) Tomb, City, RPD, Seething Song, CotV, MotM, Jitte
This hand is pretty powerful if you draw a red source. Do you wait and hope to draw that red source, as you have eighteen in your deck, and have not yet drawn a single one?

4) Mox, Mox, MotM, Blood Moon, Mountain, SSG, Trinisphere
This hand might be worth playing, but how much of your hand do you want to contribute to speed? Turn one Magus, Moon or Trinisphere is doable, but eats up a lot of your hand. How to play this? Mountain --> go?
Also: if you do not know what your opponent is playing, do you drop turn1 Blood Moon or turn 1 Magus?

5) Mountain, Mox, SSG, Slogger, RPD, MotM, SSG
This is a similar example; it offers an explosive start at the cost of almost your entire hand. Without a :2:mana land it's often possible to make that 3-drop turn one; is it worth it? Do you wait?
Do you drop turn one MotM or turn one RPD? Dropping MotM means cutting yourself out of turn 2 RPD.
Consider this hand if it were:
6) Mountain, Mox, SSG, Slogger, RPD, MotM, CotV
Would that change it?

And finally:

7) Tomb, SSG, MotM, RPD, Trinisphere, CotV, Blood Moon
I get this quite often; in general number 7 is basically a hand that nails you a three-drop turn one, but leaves you at two mana turn 2 (if you drop trinisphere), or more often: at one mana if you drop MotM or Blood Moon as they turn the :2:land into a mountain. What to do with hands that mean a turn 1 drop for you, but leaves you out of the mana turn 2?

1. Probably keep on the play, maybe or maybe not on the draw. Your opening play is Mountain, Mox-imprinting-Song, Chalice for 1. Hold back the SSG and the Moon, as you don't know what the correct thing to imprint is yet. Keeping either the Threat or the Moon back for a turn may help you win the game.

2. Keep every time. This is a fantastic hand. Lead with Tomb, Mox-Imprinting-Song, Raiders. You should be able to drop the second Raiders and go Hellbent next turn.

3. Eh. Hands without red aren't generally good, but if you draw one Source, the Magus can fix that. You do have the Chal-1 play, but you don't have any morph guys to function off colorless, so I'd only keep this if I knew that Chalice-1 would be very devastating and they couldn't stop it.

4. Hands like this are why I -hate- Trinisphere. You're basically forced to go the Trinisphere route if you keep this hand, leading Mountain, Moxes imprinting SSG and Blood Moon, Trinisphere. Second turn is the Magus, and hope you're playing against something that only has Force/Daze as an answer to Magus.

5. If you keep this, and I probably would because it's better than a random six, you have to risk the big assault, because you don't have enough permanent mana sources to afford to slow-play it. Imprint the Slogger on the Mox, power your way into the Dragon, and hope for the best. If your Dragon gets stopped, you can always topdeck a land or SSG and get your Magus out the next turn, so all isn't lost.

6. This is a completely different hand from 5. Five is Rakdos Pit Dragon combo. Six is a disruption hand. Again, imprint the Slogger on the Mox, but this time lead with Chal-1. Next turn, if you don't get a land, you can SSG into the Magus if you have to. If you -do- get a land, you can drop the Dragon, followed by the Magus the next turn, and you're in pretty good shape.

7. Toss it, period. It sucks on the play, and you scoop if they Thoughtseize your SSG on the draw.

In short, keep 2, 4, 5, and 6. Ditch 3 and 7. On 1, use what information you have to make the decision.

[Dilettante]

What's the most powerful lockpiece when you're up against John Doe?

You have to know your metagame... but in a more generic, but serious tournament, where you're expecting like 40% of the decks to be Thresh variants, the Blood Moons become critical if your opponent doesn't know what you are playing. Game 1, when your deck is as much a question mark as theirs, they will look at their hands with no consideration of fetchlands becoming negated by a quick Blood Moon... save the mirror match, burn, or Goblins. They may end up fetching non-basics, only further entrenching them before you play the Blood Moon. If you don't have a turn 1 play, I'd rather drop a mountain than an Ancient Tomb to conceal what deck type. 1 Red with no immediate drop can mean any number of things, but an ancient tomb really makes your opponent zero in on deck types and prepare for them.

However, if I do not know what my opponent plays, I'd rather drop down the Chalice for 1 ASAP, being as it protects against the most prevalent forms of active removal and is somewhat of an orim's chant against many a deck. Rather than going for the 'absolute win' against certain decks with Blood Moon, Chalice for 1 buys you time against almost every deck save mirror matches... as it prevents, for example:
Swords to Plowshares
Lightning Bolt
Duress
Thoughtseize
Extirpate
Cabal Therapy
Aether Vial
Goblin Lackey
Mogg Fanatic
Careful Study
Rite of Flame
Dark Ritual
Nimble Mongoose
Manabond
Exploration
Brainstorm
Pithing Needle
Phyrexian Dreadnought
Berserk

[Sanguine Voyeur]

playing fetchlands, even when you don't need access to more than one color, still thins your deck and increases your threat density thereby improving your drawsHardly. Although there is a slight better chance to draw threats, it's minimal and doesn't justify fetchlands in this deck.

Source (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/print.asp?ID=3096)

[Tacosnape]

Playing fetchlands also opens you up to cards like Stifle and Suppression Field, as well as lowers your life total in a deck that can easily deal 6-8+ damage to itself and has to still be relied upon to win a damage race. Bad idea.

[Rinello]

What do you think of burn spells like Fireblast and Char?

can they be used as finishers or to control the board removing serendib efreet, tarmos and jotun grunt or they are just useless in this deck?

I just wanted to think about a red card to be used as a threat and I thought "ok maybe a non creature spell is fine too".
Maybe I'm wrong, but maybe after testing some burns they'll shine more that akroma / sulfur (or silly mauler)

Another card worth testing: Jaya ballard.
We can use it to eliminate counterbalance or a standstill, we can burn our opponent and she just help us going hellbent in zero time, even if we have 1 land and 1 mox.

I think she deserves a test, maybe replacing sulfur elemental.

Only problem: casting cost. :1: :r: :r: is a pin in the ass.

[savemysoul]

Jaya Ballard sucks. 1RR, she`s slow, you need mana to activate her

[Tacosnape]

Let's shorten this. If it costs :1::r::r:, it doesn't go in Dragon Stompy. That includes Jaya Ballard, Countryside Crusher, Pillage, uh...Orcish Artilllery...you get the idea.

Fireblast is not an option. Sacrificing two mountains isn't a viable strategy when half the games you play you don't get two mountains unless you resolve a Moon. Secondly, you need cards that aren't dead in your hand. You can't afford to aggressively play Fireblast because then you won't be able to cast just about any spell you topdeck.

Char is an option, but not a great one. It's more of a removal spell than a finisher. It's incredibly rare you get an opponent down to 4 or less and can't finish them off, especially since your eight largest threats, Slogger and Dragon, allow you to pump all your excess mana into them to deal more damage anyway.

If you really want to kill things with toughness 4 or less, bring back Flametongue Kavu. I've said all along that in the right metagames it's seriously not bad. And even if it can't always kill a Tarmogoyf, it can at least come into play safely if your opponent has a Tarmogoyf, which is worth something.

[Phantom]

@ Char: I actually looked at Char when we first created the deck. It wasn't even worth it then. Now it's even worse since it doesn't kill Goyf. This deck wants to maximize threats and Char doesn't carry a Jitte or lockdown an opponent. There are rarely games where we lose and the opponent is at one to four life.
@ Fireblast: Has great synergy with a deck that runs 10 Mountains, Trinisphere, wants to maintain hellbent, and runs no other burn.
@ Jaya ballard: Good god she's awful. There are almost NO blue permanents we fear at all (you will never have her down when a Standstill hits, and we laugh at CB) and turning our cards in hand into incinerates seems not worth a hard to cast 2/2.


I like these sample hand questions. Assuming no info on the opponents deck:




1) CotV, Mountain, SSG, Mox, Mox, Blood Moon, Seething Song
This hand offers a powerful lock early game, but lacks in threats

I always keep this. I know you have to topdeck a threat, but that's exactly what the lockpieces can do: buy you time. I would lead with Chalice if I was on the draw (imprint Song and keep SSG back for Daze) but double mox and Moon on the play for the whole "I kept a dual and a fetch and now I'm fucked" factor.


2) Tomb, Mountain, SSG, Raiders, Raiders, Seething Song, Mox
This hand offers threats and pressure early game, but has difficulty enabling Hellbent (unless you want to waste the cards in your hand). It lacks in locks, and a deck with removal might take advantage of this fact.

Why is this hard to get Hellbent with? Two Raiders hands w/ Song, Mox, and SSG are NEVER hard to get hellbent with.


3) Tomb, City, RPD, Seething Song, CotV, MotM, Jitte
This hand is pretty powerful if you draw a red source. Do you wait and hope to draw that red source, as you have eighteen in your deck, and have not yet drawn a single one?

I have a rule after running into SO many of these (across all Stompy variants). I only keep no colored source hands if I have TWO casteable lock pieces. So for us that's two Chalices or a Chalice and a Trini. Otherwise a counter/Vindicate/Disenchant/etc plus us not topdecking one of our 14 (18 w/ SSG) outs for a few turns means an auto loss.


4) Mox, Mox, MotM, Blood Moon, Mountain, SSG, Trinisphere
This hand might be worth playing, but how much of your hand do you want to contribute to speed? Turn one Magus, Moon or Trinisphere is doable, but eats up a lot of your hand. How to play this? Mountain --> go?
Also: if you do not know what your opponent is playing, do you drop turn1 Blood Moon or turn 1 Magus?

Tough call and the reason I've moved all 4 Trinis to the side. Have to go Trini via SSG turn 1 I think.


5) Mountain, Mox, SSG, Slogger, RPD, MotM, SSG
This is a similar example; it offers an explosive start at the cost of almost your entire hand. Without a :2:mana land it's often possible to make that 3-drop turn one; is it worth it? Do you wait?
Do you drop turn one MotM or turn one RPD? Dropping MotM means cutting yourself out of turn 2 RPD.

I always go for turn 1 Magus here (imprint Slog). Turn 1 Dragons are usually not as cool as their potential since they die to every piece of removal, and they need hellbent to be awesome and you couldn't guarantee that turn 2. Play disruption to stall then wait for an extra mana source.

Consider this hand if it were:

6) Mountain, Mox, SSG, Slogger, RPD, MotM, CotV
Would that change it?

I imprint Slog, go for Chalice at one (you lead with Chalice over Magus because it will protect him from Bolt and Stp). Depending on the draw, I would probably go for Magus turn two. Disruption gets you out of these iffy hands by turning the opponents hand into a worse hand than yours.


7) Tomb, SSG, MotM, RPD, Trinisphere, CotV, Blood Moon
I get this quite often; in general number 7 is basically a hand that nails you a three-drop turn one, but leaves you at two mana turn 2 (if you drop trinisphere), or more often: at one mana if you drop MotM or Blood Moon as they turn the :2:land into a mountain. What to do with hands that mean a turn 1 drop for you, but leaves you out of the mana turn 2?

Any hand that will leave me with a Moon and Chalice by turn two is a keeper as long as I know I'm not playing one of the few decks this doesn't destroy.

[Tacosnape]

7) Tomb, SSG, MotM, RPD, Trinisphere, CotV, Blood Moon
I get this quite often; in general number 7 is basically a hand that nails you a three-drop turn one, but leaves you at two mana turn 2 (if you drop trinisphere), or more often: at one mana if you drop MotM or Blood Moon as they turn the :2:land into a mountain. What to do with hands that mean a turn 1 drop for you, but leaves you out of the mana turn 2?



Any hand that will leave me with a Moon and Chalice by turn two is a keeper as long as I know I'm not playing one of the few decks this doesn't destroy.

Here's my problem with this.

You go turn one Tomb, Chalice. You go turn two pitch SSG, tap Tomb, Magus or Blood Moon. Now where are you?

If your Moon sticks, you now have one mountain, period. You are two mana sources away from being able to play anything. If you didn't shut down your opponent with it, and they managed to grab a basic along the way, they might very well drop enough Tarmogoyfs to have an overwhelming board position before your Moon dies.

[Phantom]

Here's my problem with this.

You go turn one Tomb, Chalice. You go turn two pitch SSG, tap Tomb, Magus or Blood Moon. Now where are you?

If your Moon sticks, you now have one mountain, period. You are two mana sources away from being able to play anything. If you didn't shut down your opponent with it, and they managed to grab a basic along the way, they might very well drop enough Tarmogoyfs to have an overwhelming board position before your Moon dies.

Yeah, I guess this is one of the few places where I would drop Magus of the Moon over Blood Moon because generally if they luck into a basic, they will drop a ground creature or hit Magus with removal. Either way we are back to a Chalice and a Tomb and one of 17 (19 permanent) red mana source topdecks from getting back in it.

I could see shipping the hand back, but with no info I always try to keep as many cards as possible and I think this is a winning hand.

[Rinello]

Ok so after my awful Char & Co. idea, I think Sparkspitter isn't worth a test too.

Anyway I think that the problem with this deck is also its beauty:
After the 1st-2nd turn explosion your SSG and Songs have gone away, your :2: land are now mountains and you are just topdeckin somethin you hope to use, else you will loose Hellbent and sometimes slow yourself till the time when your opponent finds an answer.

I guess we have a 3 maybe 4 card slot (akroma,sulfur elemental and 1 moon+trinisphere slot) and we need a card.

If you could create this card, what would it be?

I vote for a threat, cost :2: :r: , red creature with evasive or control ability.

[Bovinious]

I'm really having trouble fitting in Sulfur Elemental, more Pit Dragons, and Akroma. How many Blood Moons and 3Spheres is typical to be running these days? Currently have 2 Blood Moon MD, 3 3Sphere MD, with the rest side, but should a few of these be cut for more dudes?

[n00bas4urus_r3x]

My list is:

18 lands
4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song
4 SSG

4 Gathan Raiders
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Arc Slogger
4 Magus of the Moon
1 Akroma, Who Lit the Fuse on my Tampon?

4 Blood Moon
4 CotV
2 Trini
3 Jitte

I'm very close to adopting the 0 trinisphere list, but Thresh makes up usually 1/4 to a 1/3 of my meta, and it's such a beating against Thresh. I haven't really done a lot of testing to finalize my list, but I've been happy with gold fishing. Just from reading I believe both Taco and Phantom have dropped trini from the main, but I'm not sure about others.

[Tacosnape]

I'm really having trouble fitting in Sulfur Elemental, more Pit Dragons, and Akroma. How many Blood Moons and 3Spheres is typical to be running these days? Currently have 2 Blood Moon MD, 3 3Sphere MD, with the rest side, but should a few of these be cut for more dudes?

The longer I play Dragon Stompy the more threats I want in it. While I think the deck is perfectly capable of winning with 20 and Trinispheres, especially in the right metagames, I highly prefer 22-24 threats with emphasis on Chalice / Moon maindeck.

I also don't think you can fit in Sulfur Elemental, Akroma, and Mauler. I think it's possible to fit a couple of any given two of them if you don't maindeck Trinisphere, but more likely you're going to have to pick just one.

[Shawon]

Has Blistering Firecat been tossed around yet? Seems pretty explosive. You can always morph it. EDIT: But then again, you do the same thing with Akroma, I guess.

[noobslayer]

There are also things like Phyrexian Warbeast (probably bad), Synod Centurion (not so bad), and Masticore (as a 1 or 2 of).

I've always felt this decks creature base was underwhelming excluding Slogger and Magus, but despite that, it still seems to perform well.

[Tacosnape]

Has Blistering Firecat been tossed around yet? Seems pretty explosive. You can always morph it. EDIT: But then again, you do the same thing with Akroma, I guess.

Firecat's pretty bad. Dragon Stompy loses when it can't keep threats around. Threats that go away on their own, therefore, are bad.


There are also things like Phyrexian Warbeast (probably bad), Synod Centurion (not so bad), and Masticore (as a 1 or 2 of).


Phyrexian Warbeast: It isn't red.
Synod Centurion: It isn't red. Keeping it in play would be difficult.
Masticore: It isn't red. It also is very bad with Hellbent.

Hope that covers that.

[Rinello]

ok:

http://magiccards.info/ju/en/79.html
Barbarian Bully?

Hellbent friendly and red, with low CC :2: :r:

:rolleyes:

[noobslayer]

You wouldn't play Masticore more than one or two copies, and also it can be used to engage Hellbent as well.

[Rinello]

You wouldn't play Masticore more than one or two copies, and also it can be used to engage Hellbent as well.

When Masticore is on the board, you don't have hellbent.
If you do, Masticore is gonna die.

That's it.

[Maveric78f]

Craven Giant
Creature - Giant 4/1 2R (3) Portal (Common)
Craven Giant can't block

Flailing Ogre
Creature - Ogre 3/3 2R (3) Mercadian Masques (Uncommon)
{1}: Flailing Ogre gets +1/+1 until end of turn. Any player may play this ability.
{1}: Flailing Ogre gets -1/-1 until end of turn. Any player may play this ability.

Giant Solifuge
Creature - Insect 4/1 2{R/G}{R/G} (4) Guildpact (Rare)
Trample, Haste, Shroud.

Goblin Goon
Creature - Goblin Mutant 6/6 3R (4) Legions (Rare)
Goblin Goon can't attack unless you control more creatures than defending player.
Goblin Goon can't block unless you control more creatures than attacking player.

Grid Monitor
Artifact Creature - Construct 4/6 4 (4) Mirrodin (Rare)
You can't play creature spells.

Hulking Ogre
Creature - Ogre 3/3 2R (3) Starter (Uncommon)
Hulking Ogre can't block.

Lava Hounds
Creature - Hound 4/4 2RR (4) Core Set - Eighth Edition (Rare)
Haste.
When Lava Hounds comes into play, it deals 4 damage to you.

Lavacore Elemental
Creature - Elemental 5/3 2R (3) Planar Chaos (Uncommon)
Vanishing 1.
Whenever a creature you control deals combat damage to a player, put a time counter on Lavacore Elemental.

Lesser Gargadon
Creature - Beast 6/4 2RR (4) Core Set - Eighth Edition (Uncommon)
Whenever Lesser Gargadon attacks or blocks, sacrifice a land.

Lightning Elemental
Creature - Elemental 4/1 3R (4) Tenth Edition (Common)
Haste.

Ogre Recluse
Creature - Ogre Warrior 5/4 3R (4) Betrayers of Kamigawa (Uncommon)
Whenever a player plays a spell, tap Ogre Recluse.

Phyrexian Ironfoot
Snow Artifact Creature - Construct 3/4 3 (3) Coldsnap (Uncommon)
Phyrexian Ironfoot doesn't untap during your untap step.
{1}{S}: Untap Phyrexian Ironfoot. ({S} can be paid with one mana from a snow permanent.)

Shah of Naar Isle
Creature - Efreet 6/6 3R (4) Future Sight (Rare)
Trample.
Echo {0}.
When Shah of Naar Isle's echo cost is paid, each opponent may draw up to three cards.

Shivan Wumpus
Creature - Beast 6/6 3R (4) Planar Chaos (Rare)
Trample.
When Shivan Wumpus comes into play, any player may sacrifice a land. If a player does, put Shivan Wumpus on top of its owner's library.

Volcano Hellion
Creature - Hellion 6/5 2RR (4) Planar Chaos (Rare)
Volcano Hellion has echo X, where X is your life total.
When Volcano Hellion comes into play, it deals an amount of damage of your choice to you and target creature. The damage can't be prevented.


I'm not sure all these cards have been discussed. Ogre Recluse looks great for instance. Volcano Hellion too.

[Arsenal]

Skizzik? I know it dies by itself if you don't kicker it, but it's a one-shot 5 points of damage for 3R, or a 5/3 trampler for 3RR.

[C.P.]

Just a thought, but how about Pact of Titan?

It seems a lot better than any of the junks there.

[Tacosnape]

Mostly bad cards

Craven Giant: Considered at the very very beginning of the deck to compete with Bloodrock Cyclops and didn't make the cut.

Flailing Ogre: Horrible idea. You play him, they untap, pay three mana, kill him. If they don't, you have to commit mana to keep him alive, rather than playing Dragons, Sloggers, their abilities, equip costs, or whatever.

Giant Solifuge: Interesting, but the toughness is too low and the double red too difficult.

Goblin Goon: There are a ton of matches where his drawback will eat your face.

Grid Monitor: Uh, no? A. He isn't red, B. we -like- playing creatures. Playing creatures = more threats on the board. Not playing creatures = not Hellbent.

Hulking Ogre: Worse than Bloodrock Cyclops, who doesn't make the cut.

Lava Hounds: Again, the double red is a huge drawback, as is the four damage in a deck packing Tomb. This could be negated if Lava Hounds were actually impressive once he hits play.

Lavacore Elemental: You can't keep him in play.

Lesser Gargadon: Sacrificing land = Not conducive to keeping Hellbent.

Lightning Elemental: Mehhh. Toughness 1 and four mana, and it isn't all that overwhelmingly strong.

Ogre Recluse: Nothing like Brainstorm doubling as Icy Manipulator. Definitely no.

Phyrexian Ironfoot: Too many drawbacks for too little power. It's not Red, we have to pay to use him, and he's only 3 power.

Shah of Naar Isle: No! Ancestral Recall on your opponent is not okay!

Shivan Wumpus: Awful. Giving your opponent the choice is a lose-lose situation. If you topdeck him on turn six or seven, he's a dead topdeck.

Volcano Hellion: Out of all the cards listed, this is the only one that's actually interesting. Paying the Echo will be incredibly difficult, moreso if you needed a Tomb to get him out. But he does eat a Tarmogoyf and give you a 6/5 in its place, if you're willing to play the game at very low life totals. Echo is bad for Hellbent, but you may not need it if this guy's out. I suppose it's worth testing.

EDIT: What exactly is everyone trying to replace, anyway? Dragon Stompy isn't running very many subpar creatures. SSG's necessary for mana, Magus is game-ending. Raiders and Dragon are both fantastic, and Slogger's nuts as long as you can cast him. This means anything you come up with has to be better than Taurean Mauler, Sulfur Elemental, Flametongue Kavu, and Akroma, Angel of Fury, who are still the top four candidates for any slots beyond the main 20, which some people don't even run. Volcano Hellion might be, but I doubt it. The rest of those suggestions aren't.

[Maveric78f]

All the cards are listed in the option of a half-prison half-beatdown game plan I proposed earlier. I had 2 empty spots for beaters and none of the 4 candidates looks terriffic. The goal is to win within 3 or 4 turns with 1 kill in play, when your opponent is struggling to go back into the game facing your lock piece.

I'm approxively ok with all you remarks except :


Lesser Gargadon: Sacrificing land = Not conducive to keeping Hellbent.
If you have him in play, either you don't need hellbent either you don't need to attack.


Ogre Recluse: Nothing like Brainstorm doubling as Icy Manipulator. Definitely no.
Let's face it. Only brainstorm is an overly played instant that don't need a legal target in legacy. Brainstorm is probably hit by trinisphere, chalice, and even moons as blue decks love to splash. I think it's a very good entry.


Shivan Wumpus: Awful. Giving your opponent the choice is a lose-lose situation. If you topdeck him on turn six or seven, he's a dead topdeck.
On turn 6 or 7, you are already dead if you don't control the game by denying their mana base. I'm not sure it's so bad. I mean 6/6 trample for 4 when your opponent is mana denied...


Volcano Hellion: Out of all the cards listed, this is the only one that's actually interesting. Paying the Echo will be incredibly difficult, moreso if you needed a Tomb to get him out. But he does eat a Tarmogoyf and give you a 6/5 in its place, if you're willing to play the game at very low life totals. Echo is bad for Hellbent, but you may not need it if this guy's out. I suppose it's worth testing.
If you really take the combo lock/beatdown. He's another perfect guy removing a blocker and hitting strong. The only problem is that it's absolutely not combo with ancient tomb. With him in play all your ancient tombs become deads as long as you don't get a moon effect.

[chokin]

All the cards are listed in the option of a half-prison half-beatdown game plan I proposed earlier. I had 2 empty spots for beaters and none of the 4 candidates looks terriffic. The goal is to win within 3 or 4 turns with 1 kill in play, when your opponent is struggling to go back into the game facing your lock piece.

I'm approxively ok with all you remarks except :


If you have him in play, either you don't need hellbent either you don't need to attack.


Let's face it. Only brainstorm is an overly played instant that don't need a legal target in legacy. Brainstorm is probably hit by trinisphere, chalice, and even moons as blue decks love to splash. I think it's a very good entry.


On turn 6 or 7, you are already dead if you don't control the game by denying their mana base. I'm not sure it's so bad. I mean 6/6 trample for 4 when your opponent is mana denied...


If you really take the combo lock/beatdown. He's another perfect guy removing a blocker and hitting strong. The only problem is that it's absolutely not combo with ancient tomb. With him in play all your ancient tombs become deads as long as you don't get a moon effect.

Chalice does not stop them from playing cards. Only resolving them. There aren't a ton of great options outside of what we have.

LOL we could be like Faerie Stompy and run Chartooth Cougar for a Mountaincycle/OMGtoomuchmana Firebreathing beater. It's an idea. First turns if you have City or Tomb with no red source, it helps set up. It can thin the deck(marginal difference). I dunno. It's an idea. Probably bad.

I think the deck needs some low costed good creatures. Magus and Raiders are both good. Mauler and Sulfer are ok, not great. Other options are plain bad. Anyone have any ideas for a low cost efficent beater?

[Rinello]

@ taco:

If trinisphere sucks, since it can't be used for impring and "forces" us to play it imprinting blood moon, do you think that Pyrostatic Pillar is a bad idea?

We can afford the damage, if we can slow our opponent enough to play moon or a beater, and ... I don't know I just wated to know your opinion about it.

[n00bas4urus_r3x]

I know we tried Drooling Ogre in Junk Pile and he worked out ok. Other that that, as far as undercosted red beaters nothing really comes to mind.

[Tacosnape]

@ taco:

If trinisphere sucks, since it can't be used for impring and "forces" us to play it imprinting blood moon, do you think that Pyrostatic Pillar is a bad idea?

We can afford the damage, if we can slow our opponent enough to play moon or a beater, and ... I don't know I just wated to know your opinion about it.

Neat History Lesson. In the original Dragon Stompy, back when the deck wanted to beat Goblins/Threshold/Storm Combo and cared about nothing else, the disruption pieces were Chalice of the Void and Pyrostatic Pillar. And it wasn't even all that good back then, truth be told.

Pillar is weak. And you're wrong about the damage. We can't afford the damage. Especially since in the current incarnation, most of what we play is 3 or less. Seriously. Pit Dragon and Slogger are the only things we play that don't trigger under a Pillar, and if Chalice and Moon do their jobs, our opponents play less spells than us. What's more, we can't afford to be faced with a decision of whether to take damage or lose Hellbent. Once we get our Hellbent guys out, we've got to play everything we have.

[Rinello]

Neat History Lesson. In the original Dragon Stompy, back when the deck wanted to beat Goblins/Threshold/Storm Combo and cared about nothing else, the disruption pieces were Chalice of the Void and Pyrostatic Pillar. And it wasn't even all that good back then, truth be told.

Pillar is weak. And you're wrong about the damage. We can't afford the damage. Especially since in the current incarnation, most of what we play is 3 or less. Seriously. Pit Dragon and Slogger are the only things we play that don't trigger under a Pillar, and if Chalice and Moon do their jobs, our opponents play less spells than us. What's more, we can't afford to be faced with a decision of whether to take damage or lose Hellbent. Once we get our Hellbent guys out, we've got to play everything we have.

Lol, with Char and Pyrostatic Pillar I have revealed the history of Dragon Stompy!!!

So.. you have no trini main? I guess you use 8 moons maindeck.. I should try this build before considering some more threat..

[donkyranger]

I was skimming through this thread and I don't know if this topic was discussed, and if it was I'm sorry, but what about Chandra? I think that it could be good in quite a few situations. It seems better in a meta where there are a lot of White Thresh and can possibly kill a goyf and live to tell the tale and if not, then you just play another one. Possibly replacing a Slogger or two? Just a thought. Dose anyone else have any?

[Zork]

Chandra was tried and rejected the day she was spoiled. I found her to be like Powder Keg - an answer to many things, but a bad one to all of them. Combine that with a 5cc and the fact that Slogger removes everything she could while also winning and you can see why she doesn't really have a place in the deck.

[Rinello]

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
9 [MM] Mountain (4)
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors

// Creatures
4 [DIS] Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 [FUT] Gathan Raiders
3 [MR] Arc-Slogger
4 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
1 [PLC] Akroma, Angel of Fury
2 [PLC] Sulfur Elemental
1 [SC] Chartooth Cougar

// Spells
1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MR] Seething Song
2 [AL] Pyrokinesis
2 [8E] Blood Moon

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 3 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [AL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 2 [8E] Blood Moon


A LOT of red cards to pitch mox and Pyrokinesis.
Your hand will be empty pretty fast, and there is a very little chance to be stuck with your full hand and no way to drop anything.
Sideboard will fix everything to be more suitable with your gameplay or MU, and with Pyro + 2 Blood Moon MD you can controll the board better, or have the opportunity to sacrifice one of those cards for mox.

This is my personal choice, I think that the only open slots are
"coguar or mountain", equipment, "4 slot blood moon/trini/ Pyro"

After I tested 3 Akromas I can tell that you will use it like a 2/2 Grey Ogre or to pitch. Pyrokinesis + Blood Moon is more versatile I guess.
I keep 1 Akroma because it is a nasty surprise if you can Morph her, and I don't mine imprinting her if this does help me to empty my hand.

[Kuma]

Chartooth Cougar? How's that working for you? When I play Dragon Stompy, I often have a hard enough time casting Arc-Slogger for five, let alone Cougar or Akroma for six. I think I'd end up mountaincycling him virtually all the time, so why not just run the 10th mountain?

[Jak]

Chartooth Cougar? How's that working for you? When I play Dragon Stompy, I often have a hard enough time casting Arc-Slogger for five, let alone Cougar or Akroma for six. I think I'd end up mountaincycling him virtually all the time, so why not just run the 10th mountain?

Because it is better than a mountain late in the game. Most of the time you will use it to get a Mountain, but when you are late in the game and need a threat, he is there.

[deviant]

And he makes you mulligan even more those hands that don't quite have the adequate amount of mana. Yeah, sounds really good..
And no, I don't think first turn play of tomb, mountaincycling is quite good enough.
Besides, for 6 mana you really should get more than a 4/4 kitten. A 6/6 flying, trampling prot StP sounds more like it.

[Jak]

And he makes you mulligan even more those hands that don't quite have the adequate amount of mana. Yeah, sounds really good..
And no, I don't think first turn play of tomb, mountaincycling is quite good enough.
Besides, for 6 mana you really should get more than a 4/4 kitten. A 6/6 flying, trampling prot StP sounds more like it.

Yeah cause I would definitely keep a hand with just 2 lands, anyways...

[Nihil Credo]

Yeah cause I would definitely keep a hand with just 2 lands, anyways...
Uhm, yes you would. In a Stompy deck, that usually means three mana (either one is a double or you have a Mox). In this particular one, probably more because of SSG and Song.

Actually, the best hands this deck could wish for are usually two-land hands.

[nastynate]

Yeah cause I would definitely keep a hand with just 2 lands, anyways...

The deck runs only 18 lands. How many do you expect to see in your opening hand? 2 sounds perfect to me.

[Jak]

Uhm, yes you would. In a Stompy deck, that usually means three mana (either one is a double or you have a Mox). In this particular one, probably more because of SSG and Song.

Actually, the best hands this deck could wish for are usually two-land hands.

I meant 2 mana hands. If you get a 2-mountain hand, with no other sources, like deviant was saying, would you keep that?

[Dark_Cynic87]

look at your odds.

2 mountain hand with NO OTHER MANA SOURCES IN YOUR HAND:

Here's what's left in the deck:
4x Chrome Mox
4x SSG
8x Mountain
8x 2-mana lands

24 mana sources left, 29 other cards, and 4 of those should be Seething Song. You have 2 draws before you run out of land-drops. Your odds of getting a permanent mana source is extremely high. Even higher if you need a one-time mana source.

Yeah, I'd keep a 2-mountain hand. I'm thinking of finding some room for either Crucible or a couple more mountains. Some of few of the "auto-includes" aren't that necessary (not sure on what they are yet, but...). I think Blood Moons are better than Magii. I'm changing the ratio in mine. Yeah, Magii are win con's you can slap a Jitte on, but they are also easily removed.

[Jak]

Now, how would Cougar be different than that Mountain? Good, you see my point. The deck wants to get to three mana. Cougar helps with that.

The deck has a ton of mana cards. Drawing them late in the game is not the greatest. Drawing Cougar late in the game is much better.

[Dark_Cynic87]

This may be a lame suggestion/question. In spite of that, I'll mention it anyway. Has Reckless Wurm been tested? It would be a good toss to Gathan Raiders (sweet combat trix; turn 1 2/2 vanilla into a possible 5/5 and a 4/4 blocker), but at it's worst, it's a 4/4 trampler for 5, which is possibly worse than Arc-Slogger. I was just thinking of it as a 2-of in place of Sulfur Elemental. I haven't tested, I was just running through some cards, and I happened to see it.

Thoughts/Criticism welcome.

--DC

[deviant]

I meant 2 mana hands. If you get a 2-mountain hand, with no other sources, like deviant was saying, would you keep that?

Now where exactly did I say a two mountain hand? Or did I even mention "no other mana sources"?
Now please don't distort what I said. I just pointed out that cycling for a land is not exactly what you'd want to do with a deck that has no late game whatsoever
Really. It took me like four games to realise that. Topdecking is not what we're good at. Something like a slogger, pit dragon or akroma are topdecks good enough to still win you the game but a 4/4 kitten is definitely not.

And about those trinis, I think they best serve us as a three-of in the sb.
And about FtK: it is situatinional as it needs something to ping, and it costs a total of 4 mana. If the meta doesn't change a lot, I don't think it has a place after all. I know most of you knew this already but I was a little sceptic.
Just wanted to say this if there's someone lurking in the thread that doesn't know yet that the difference between three and four mana is HUGE in this deck.

If you want to up the creature count, I think the two akromas and some sulfurs are the way to go.

What do you people think about akroma now that she's been lurking in the decklists for a few weeks. Still playing her?

[chokin]

Wurm sounds a bit too situational. He's pretty underpowered if hardcast. Hellbent Dragon and Raiders are better than he is, Slogger has a bigger butt and some removal/burn with him.

Cougar was an idea I came up with a few posts up partly being a smartass. People were debating the last few slots of Sulfer/Akroma, so I suggested Cougar to take after Faerie Stompy. One major difference is we play 6+ Moon effects, slowing our double lands. Even with Song+1 mana, a 4/4 isn't that good. The only way Cougar is good is in a 1 double land hand with lots of good stuff and Cougar. Instead of mulling, Mountaincycle for a turn 2 lockpeice/song+fat.

When it comes down to it, he's about as situational as the Wurm and about the same unimpressive power level.

[Tacosnape]

Tourney report. Whee. 1st Place. This brings my sanctioned tournament match win streak to somewhere around 50, I think. I need to calculate this.

Here's the list I played.

10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song

4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Arc-Slogger
4 Akroma, Angel of Whatever

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Blood Moon
2 Umezawa's Jitte

SB:
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Pithing Needle
3 Pyroblast
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Umezawa's Jitte

***Round One: (Advisory6000, Train Wreck)***
G1: I mull to a barely playable 6, so does he. Between Hymn, Seize, and Edict, he manages to get all of my early kill conditions in my yard. He then plays Haunting Echoes, leaving me three Simian Spirit Guides to kill him. No chance.
G2: Again we both mull to 6. I get stuck early on threats, but Needle on Deed and Staff lets a face-down Akroma deal ten before it gets Edicted away. I Magus him off Green to stop Putrefy and get a Chalice for 2 down and a couple more threats and manage to go the distance.
G3: I mull to 6 yet again. All I remember was that I got Haunting Echoed for every threat but Gathan Raiders with a Slogger/Dragon in my hand. I get the Needle/Chalice thing going again, drop my threats, draw Raiders, and go to town.
1-0 Me!

***Round Two: (Clight, Burn)***
G1: Threat. Jitte. Whee.
G2: Chalice. Threats. Whee. Also, for the first time in my entire 12-year magic career, I got to bounce a Chain Lightning in this game (I don't particularly remember where my Chalice went), which put her just in Slogger shot range while I was at 1.
2-0 Me!

***Round Three: (Jeff, Mono-R Goblins)***
G1: He drops a Lackey, I send a Raiders in front of it. I manage a Dragon and a Jitte while he gets stuck on three Ports and can't play much else.
G2: He tries to swing with Lackey/Driver to bait me into blocking with a Slogger so he can Pyrokinesis it. I Pyrokinesis his attackers instead. I get down a Raiders with 1 card in hand. He tries to Pyrokinesis it, I flip it over with Hellbent, I win.
3-0 Me!

***Round Four: (Chase, Landstill)***
G1: He STP's a fast Dragon, then forces a Magus. I peel a second Magus. Whee!
G2: My opening hand is an ungodly Tomb, City, Mox, Chalice, Magus, Magus, Magus. That's seriously the best hand I've ever seen in a given situation with this deck. I draw a Raiders, Imprint it, and Chalice for 1. The first Magus is enough to seal the game. Afterwards, he shows he 3 Hydroblasts in his hand.
4-0 Me!

***Semifinals: (Chase, Landstill)***
G1: He pitches Intuition to Force to stop a Moon. We play a game of STP Pong. Raiders, Swords. Dragon, Swords. Slogger, Swords. Fortunately I've still got another Dragon and another Slogger at this point, and he's out of swords and can't find double green for Witness.
G2: I almost get mana screwed here when he tries to Counter my Moxes, but a Pyroblast allows me to get just enough mana for a Blood Moon and the win.
5-0 / Advance Me!

***Finals: (Clight, Burn)***
G1: I get two fast Dragons bolted and topdeck land until my birthday. I lose horribly.
G2: I get Chalice-1 and Jitte. She has a Shattering Spree but gets stuck on 2 land and uses it to stop the Jitte, which would have connected the next turn. Mindbogglingly, my Slogger gets taken down by Magma Jet/Fireblast, and I slog her for 8 in response, rolling most of my library. Fortunately, my next two cards are Magus and Gathan Raiders, which is enough to go the distance while she's hurting for land.
G3: I take a Chain to the face to 17, then I lead Tomb, Chalice-1, down to 15. I get nailed with back to back Incinerates while getting threats down, then she just gets stuck and I swing for the win. Her final hand includes 3 Bolts and 2 Spikes.
6-0 / 1st Place / Store Credit Me!

So with only four decks of variety for the evening (Burn, Wreck, Landstill, Goblins), I came to the following conclusions.

1. I never flipped Akroma, but she was still pretty good the whole time. Everyone played around her like she was Gathan Raiders except Jeff, who Pyrokinesis'd a Gathan Raiders thinking she was Akroma. I played her off all colorless mana a couple times. Also, it was comforting to know that against that particular build of Landstill, all I had to do was ramp up to 8 mana and hardcast Akroma to win. Sulfur Elemental and Taurean Mauler wouldn't have done much better than Akroma tonight, but they wouldn't have done much worse either.

2. 24 Threats is really good. Definitely better than 22. But maybe not better than 23. I'll be testing one less threat for one more Jitte.

3. You can beat Burn without Trinisphere. I ran completely without it because I expected Landstill and MUC tonight but no Storm Combo and one Threshold max. Burn wasn't much of a problem. Trinisphere would have still helped in this matchup a lot, though.

4. Pyroblast is really a lot better than people (including me) give it credit for. I nailed a Counterspell aimed at a Chrome Mox that had it succeeded, I'd have lost the game.

[Jak]

Now where exactly did I say a two mountain hand? Or did I even mention "no other mana sources"?
Now please don't distort what I said. I just pointed out that cycling for a land is not exactly what you'd want to do with a deck that has no late game whatsoever
Really. It took me like four games to realise that. Topdecking is not what we're good at. Something like a slogger, pit dragon or akroma are topdecks good enough to still win you the game but a 4/4 kitten is definitely not.


And he makes you mulligan even more those hands that don't quite have the adequate amount of mana.

I took that as to mean less than 2, so him and a mountain. I am looking at him as a mountain. Late game he is a creature. You even say we are bad a top decking. He at least makes what would of been a useless land into a threat that might pull wins. Do not compare him to slogger or akroma because those are obviously better top decks. But when you have 6 lands out and resort to top decking against some deck, he will be better than a mountain.

[deviant]

Congratulations Taco!
You did a lot better than me, I managed a dubious 3-2. Lost to the winner who played grow-a-tog or something and it was game three when I realised it was not landstill o_O. (weird and quick games the first two. obviously I played like shit in the third where a needle on a tog would have been beating.)
The other loss was pretty much the deck shooting itself in the head. (Actually it was an opposing FoW to my mull-to-four-and-still-get-to-try-a-magus-on-the-first-turn-play.)

Anyway. Same conclusion about akroma - never flipped, was always good. Played only two though.

@Taco: have you btw EVER played the mirror? My first time with the deck and round four was a mirror! He had 4 pyrokinesis but I won 'cause I lucksack 1st turn sloggers like it's my job. So those are both really good, as is chalice at 0 on the play, but what else? Any insight? (I know this is highly unlikely MU but we were both a little stunned and lost in the woods of what-should-I-do so thought this would be an interesting subject.)

PS: I just take this opportunity to lick some Source-ass and thank you all for the most amusing deck to play EVER! It's a blast to mull to 5-5-4 and still win while the opponent is calling his friends to come and look at what a pile of shit this guy is beating me with! Consistency is a serious issue though and I'm with Taco about those trinis - they're better of threat.

[moOnsteak]

1. I never flipped Akroma, but she was still pretty good the whole time. Everyone played around her like she was Gathan Raiders except Jeff, who Pyrokinesis'd a Gathan Raiders thinking she was Akroma. I played her off all colorless mana a couple times. Also, it was comforting to know that against that particular build of Landstill, all I had to do was ramp up to 8 mana and hardcast Akroma to win. Sulfur Elemental and Taurean Mauler wouldn't have done much better than Akroma tonight, but they wouldn't have done much worse either.

2. 24 Threats is really good. Definitely better than 22. But maybe not better
than 23. I'll be testing one less threat for one more Jitte.

3. You can beat Burn without Trinisphere. I ran completely without it because I expected Landstill and MUC tonight but no Storm Combo and one Threshold max. Burn wasn't much of a problem. Trinisphere would have still helped in this matchup a lot, though.

4. Pyroblast is really a lot better than people (including me) give it credit for. I nailed a Counterspell aimed at a Chrome Mox that had it succeeded, I'd have lost the game.

Congratulation for a great finish. .
I've entered a tourney too yesterday and finished at 4 of 15 players. .
My easy victory goes against 43 Land and U/B/W Fish, have a hard time with U/G/W Landstill but still reach to win, and the only lost is against kind of Soldier Deck. .
I run 22 threats (3 Slogger, 4 Magus, 4 Dragon, 4 SSG, 4 Riders, 2 Sulfur, and 1 Akroma), 4 equipment (2 Jitte, 1 SoFI, SoLS), no Blood Moon but 3 Trinisphere. .

What I have to say is :
1.Morph creatures is good (also because they are colorless), but better with equipment assists them, I win against Fish because of a morphed Akroma equipped SoFI pass away Silver Knight. .4 Akroma will be next input for my list, and I'll not run less than 4 equipments. .

2.a.I'm getting confuse using Chalice. .with the casting cost of Jitte, in one side :2: is nice, low, and can be casted early. .but it also shut off by Chalice @2 which is favorable against Landstill, Loam or any aggro deck. .so what options left on me is : board it out or pitch it for Riders, what a waste. .
2.b.Same case with Pyroblast / Pithing Needle and Chalice@1, I drop an early Chalice@1 to shut off StP, Brainstorm and Ponder against Landstill but my act makes my Pyro and Needle a dead card. .

3.Trinisphere is good but in the environment of Aggro, Pyrokinesis will take its place. .and yes, Burn can be beaten only by Chalice. .

4.Ancient Tomb is hurt, if my opening hand contain 2 Tombs 1 Mox and 1 SSG with some threats against Aggro, should I keep it? Because I kept it but lose because of dying by Tomb's 2 damage. .

[matelml]

If you don't expect to flip the Akroma, isn't Zoetic Cavern better?

[moOnsteak]

If you don't expect to flip the Akroma, isn't Zoetic Cavern better?

1st. .Zoetic Cavern is not a RED card. .can't be pitched for Mox and / or Pyrokinesis. .
2nd. .Akroma will be flipped if I'm able to do it. .so it's not like I'm not expect to flip her. .

[Dilettante]

I just used Akroma in a build that uses 2 Akromas, 1 more in SB. I did okay, came 2nd out of 19 (lost to Sligh while getting 1st hand mull to 5 with no-land hands). She's... handy for certain matchups. She allows you to play mindgames with Gathan Raiders and if played right, make them suck up Swords. If I see Countertop, she is absolutely invaluable, early and late... She does much more than a Sulfur Elemental for me, but it is a personal choice... How are you at playing the bluff game with your opponent? Can you get your opponent to play their pyroclasm with your Raiders in play?

[Dark_Cynic87]

Wurm--trample and alternate cc, Kitty--manacycling. I would pick wurm. This is, after all, a very aggressive deck.

[matelml]

Someone told me the deck can get away with 8-9 mountains, does that mean the last 1-2 lands would be better as Zoetic cavern?

[moOnsteak]

Someone told me the deck can get away with 8-9 mountains, does that mean the last 1-2 lands would be better as Zoetic cavern?

I run always 10 mountains as the creator of this deck suggest / test and being comfort with it, so I won't run less than 10. .:r::r: in some spells's casting cost will be hard to covered if you run only 8-9 mountain. .

[zulander]

Tourney report. Whee. 1st Place. This brings my sanctioned tournament match win streak to somewhere around 50, I think. I need to calculate this.


Grats on the finish. Out of curiosity how many people showed up for it?

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Grats on the finish. Out of curiosity how many people showed up for it?It's sanctioned and has six rounds, so at least 33 people, but less then the number required for seven rounds.

[Rinello]

Congratulations!

Taco, why 4 Akroma are better than 2 Akroma and 2 Sulfur elemental?

4 Akroma are most of the time a Grey Ogre (you wrote that you flipped Akroma only 2 times) while a Sulfur Elemental is stronger and has split second (nasty against Mongoose) .

Also: what do you think about coguar?

Thank You.

[Tacosnape]

Congratulations!

Taco, why 4 Akroma are better than 2 Akroma and 2 Sulfur elemental?

4 Akroma are most of the time a Grey Ogre (you wrote that you flipped Akroma only 2 times) while a Sulfur Elemental is stronger and has split second (nasty against Mongoose) .

Also: what do you think about coguar?

Thank You.

I don't know for sure that 4 Akroma -is- better than 2/2, or any other combination of the three guys struggling to make the team. People should realize that just because a build makes first place doesn't mean that the build is optimal. I'll probably give Mauler a shot next. It's also worth noting to everyone that I never said I don't -expect- to flip Akroma. I just didn't for this tournament. I've flipped her several times before. Flipping Akroma is at its absolute best in creature standoffs, which I didn't really have to face at all.

I also think Chartooth Cougar is a terrible idea. Ancient Tomb deals 2 damage to us a shot, meaning the number of times we can tap it are limited. Having a Mountain that you may very well have to tap a Tomb in order to get is not only pricy life-wise, but expensive in the tempo department.


Grats on the finish. Out of curiosity how many people showed up for it?

A whopping nine. Conflicts between Legacy + Draft = low turnout.

[Phantom]

I've been testing 4 Akroma as well, except in the Slogger slot. Hurts me a bit against Goblins and small aggro, but helps me a ton against blue. I've both hardcasted it and flipped it. I really like how easy the build makes hitting hellbent, as RPD becomes my highest casting cost. I'm still not 100% what the split should be between her, Mauler and Sulfur yet.

Also, congrats on the finish Taco. I found this amusing as you seem to have a brain lock on this one card:



4 Akroma, Angel of Wrath



Fury. We play red here son!

[Tacosnape]

I've been testing 4 Akroma as well, except in the Slogger slot. Hurts me a bit against Goblins and small aggro, but helps me a ton against blue. I've both hardcasted it and flipped it. I really like how easy the build makes hitting hellbent, as RPD becomes my highest casting cost. I'm still not 100% what the split should be between her, Mauler and Sulfur yet.

Also, congrats on the finish Taco. I found this amusing as you seem to have a brain lock on this one card:

Fury. We play red here son!

sadlfhsadlkjsdajfhsdkjlf. Fixed. At least, fixed in my opinion, anyway. 3AM Tourney Reports for the lose.

Akroma in the Slogger slot makes me cringe. Slogger was entirely my MVP of the night, wrecking Goblins, eating a Spark Elemental, providing insane reach, and being just slightly too big to kill by Pyrokinesis. I find myself ashamed that I ever argued against Slogger.

I did board one out on a couple occasions to increase my consistency, and I did get stuck with him in my hand against Train Wreck after starting with mediocre hands and not drawing lands, but the positives far outweighed the negatives and far outweighed the positives of any other guys in my deck except maybe Magus of the I Win. (Dragon had its finer moments also.)

[zulander]

It's sanctioned and has six rounds, so at least 33 people, but less then the number required for seven rounds.

If you read the report he played 4 rounds then went to top 4.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

If you read the report he played 4 rounds then went to top 4.I saw four rounds followed by semi-finals (5) and finals (6). Clearly I am mistaken.

[Rinello]

Why Sulfur Elemental is THAT bad?

Taurean Mauler works against our strategy and is a bad topdeck,so I don't think he ever deserves a slot ,
but I think sulfur deserves one, maybe 2x.
Split second and +1/-1 rocks against Mongoose, Jotun and white weenie,
and :2: :r: casting cost is good for our mana curve.

Maybe 23 threat with 3 Slogger, 2 Akroma and 2 Sulfur is the best set of creatures, obv IMHO.

[deviant]

Slogger is so ridiculous I can't imagine ever playing less than 4 in this deck. It's a terrible topdeck when trying to remain hellbent, yes, but that hardly outweights how amazing he is any other time. Besides, I've only played in one tournament with DS and when the rush didn't take the game home and the opponent topdecked basic lands and slowly started to take control (this happened twice) - slogger was THE card I was hoping to draw. I was obviously getting a little flooded when this happened so I had the mana to cast him.

I'm also advocating moar threats to this deck, and I think akromas are the best additions atm. Is there any other viable mana-acceleration available besides the ones we are already running? Rite of flames doesn't really cut it, does it?
I would like to play more songs to help sloggers, akromas and other ridiculous first turns, but there are these disqualification issues :(

[Silthyn]

Slogger is so ridiculous I can't imagine ever playing less than 4 in this deck. It's a terrible topdeck when trying to remain hellbent, yes, but that hardly outweights how amazing he is any other time. Besides, I've only played in one tournament with DS and when the rush didn't take the game home and the opponent topdecked basic lands and slowly started to take control (this happened twice) - slogger was THE card I was hoping to draw. I was obviously getting a little flooded when this happened so I had the mana to cast him.

I'm also advocating moar threats to this deck, and I think akromas are the best additions atm. Is there any other viable mana-acceleration available besides the ones we are already running? Rite of flames doesn't really cut it, does it?
I would like to play more songs to help sloggers, akromas and other ridiculous first turns, but there are these disqualification issues :(

Rite of Flames would be bad because of Chalice @1.
How many Akromas would you run?

[deviant]

I was thinking of three.
Two is not enough and there is no room for four I think. Three jittes should be good with that many morphs you can't flip if all goes well. And anyways - Jittes are good.

[Tacosnape]

Is there any other viable mana-acceleration available besides the ones we are already running? Rite of flames doesn't really cut it, does it?

You pretty much answered your own question. Seething Song is the only one worthwhile because it nets two mana and can exchange :2: for :r::r::r::r:, which is insane when dealing with Sloggers, Pit Dragons, or Akromas. Mox makes the cut because it's permanent and facilitates hellbent. SSG makes the cut because he's a threat and a Jitte carrier in a pinch.


Someone told me the deck can get away with 8-9 mountains, does that mean the last 1-2 lands would be better as Zoetic cavern?

Someone told you wrong. The deck barely gets away with 10. The correct number is somewhere around 10.5. Unfortunately, split card mountains don't exist yet. However, it's a little worse to be stuck with a flood of Mountains/Moxes in your hand than it is to be a little short, especially considering Pyrokinesis and Chrome Mox reward you for having too many red cards in hand but punish you for too many lands.

[deviant]

Taco.
You've been running this thing without the trinis for a week or so now. Have you been able to do some testing against *****, combo and such?
You know, the mu's where trini was good.
I was just wondering how much the absence of trinis affect these mu's.
(No, I can't test it myself unfortunately. That's why I have to ask others.)

[zulander]

I saw four rounds followed by semi-finals (5) and finals (6). Clearly I am mistaken.

Which means that it was a 4 round tournament, with top4 playoffs. Sure that's a total of 6 rounds but there's a difference between a 4 rounds top4 and 6 rounds top8. 4 rounds top4 can be anything from 14-20ish players I believe. But then again tacosnape hasn't posted the number of players as I asked :(

[Arsenal]

A whopping nine. Our store owner's an idiot and decided to hold an improv Lorwyn/Morningtide draft at the same time as a Legacy tournament.

There.

I too am interested in knowing about mu's w/o 3Sphere against Thresh, etc.

[deviant]

I stumbled across a DS decklist which sided 3 culling scales. (Some small tournament, 3rd.)
I don't think it's very good considering our morphs cost 0, cotv=0, many key permanents cost 3 and so on. Oh yeah, and needle=1.
Thought to inform anyway, you never know ;)

[Tacosnape]

Taco.
You've been running this thing without the trinis for a week or so now. Have you been able to do some testing against *****, combo and such?
You know, the mu's where trini was good.
I was just wondering how much the absence of trinis affect these mu's.
(No, I can't test it myself unfortunately. That's why I have to ask others.)

Threshold's still favorable. Obviously it's better -with- Trinisphere, but Chalice still hurts it, Moon hurts it if you get it early enough, and you still run a ton of big guys they have to worry about.

Other than TES and possibly Ichorid, Trinisphere doesn't really help you all that much against any other combo deck. Ichorid is still somewhat favorable. Epic Storm without Trinispheres anywhere in the build is probably in their favor. With Trinispheres in board only it was about even, possibly slightly in DS's favor.


I stumbled across a DS decklist which sided 3 culling scales. (Some small tournament, 3rd.)
I don't think it's very good considering our morphs cost 0, cotv=0, many key permanents cost 3 and so on. Oh yeah, and needle=1.
Thought to inform anyway, you never know ;)

Mox, Chalice, and Morph all die to Culling Scales. So no go. I must admit I had to look the card up, though, and it seems like it would have a lot of potential in certain control decks.

[mercenarybdu]

The deck is excellent in the current format and I'm already in the works of building my version.

Hope to finish the MB soon and startt playing around with it as I am in the works of finishing a Legacy Version of Korlash Control.

[Dark_Cynic87]

Wow, that was his first post, even...lol

I think more lands are needed. It's pretty important. I mull down to 5 way too much because of a lack of lands. That starts me out with less options and less threats. Helps with Hellbent, but it's not optimal. I think Fetches wouldn't be bad. We're mono-red anyway, so Blood Moon would be a trivial matter. More lands, plus thinning. I don't see how it would be bad.

I like consistancy...I need suggestions on what to drop. I'll post a list later, but like 2x more lands would be optimal. It seems like 18x lands, 4 moxen and a set of SSG's would be good, but I keep getting screwed.

[Filipinho]

I was having land issues too but it was while I was adapting myself to the deck. It's been a while since I last had to mull down to 5 due to bad land draws.

I've not dropped Trinisphere. I play exact same list as Taco, but with -4x Akroma, Angel of WHATEVER, +4x Trinisphere. It's the best first turn play. It's a timewalk. There's nothing your opponent can do t1, slows them down, makes counters go away, and disrupts combo better than CotV. It's not imprintable on Mox, but it has't been a big drawback much.

[Braves]

What does this deck match up really well against?

[Tacosnape]

What does this deck match up really well against?

Anything with over 67% nonbasic lands. Anything relying heavily on cards that are shut down by Chalice-1 or Chalice-2. Any semi-control deck with an insufficient amount of removal. Any smaller aggro deck. Most combo decks. Threshold. Essentially the entire DTB Forum sans The Rock, some Survival, and possibly Aluren (I've honestly never once played DS vs. Aluren, but I suspect it could be troublesome.) Stax is decent, Affinity's usually who wins the die roll, and Enchantress = Scoop and go get dinner.

What makes the deck neat is its capacity to sometimes just win any matchup, good or bad, without thinking about it. I've beaten Solidarity by dropping a turn one Slogger. I've beaten The Rock by dropping a turn one Magus when my opponent had three fetchlands in hand.

The downside is that it's just as capable of losing its very best matchups without thought. I've lost against Goblins with Slogger/Jitte/Dragon in hand because I couldn't stop a turn one Lackey. I've lost to Threshold due to being stuck walking into Daze. I've lost to almost everything due to mulliganing myself into oblivion.

[J.V.]

possibly Aluren (I've honestly never once played DS vs. Aluren, but I suspect it could be troublesome.)

Taco, your build would get reamed by Aluren because you cut trinisphere, but In builds with trinisphere it is about 65-35 in your favor.

[mercenarybdu]

What does this deck match up really well against?

The deck hoses Threshold and nearly every deck that loves to play spells under 3 mana if it could play out Trinisphere before any of those decks could be operational.

Then with the Blood Moon cards just gum up any player who runs too many Nonbasic lands which is a plus in the current meta game but I would recommend that players don't run full play sets of the actual Blood Moon.

What makes it so tough to hose out completely would have to be the fact that most of the creatures are mammoths to deal with as most modern decks in the format would run mainly cards to kill small guys.

Then it still has problems with Mono-Black Aggro and people who have figured out how to hose the deck.

[Tacosnape]

Taco, your build would get reamed by Aluren because you cut trinisphere, but In builds with trinisphere it is about 65-35 in your favor.

That's sort of what I thought. I'll have to try it to see what the best strategy is between fast clocks, Moons, Needles, Chalices, Pyrokineses, etc.

Aluren's virtually invisible, though. Good or not, it's less played at Tournaments than Solidarity ever thought about being.

Also, for the record, I do still advocate Trinisphere in the sideboard of this deck. My decision to exclude it from my sideboard was a metagame call.

[Braves]

The deck hoses Threshold and nearly every deck that loves to play spells under 3 mana if it could play out Trinisphere before any of those decks could be operational.

Then with the Blood Moon cards just gum up any player who runs too many Nonbasic lands which is a plus in the current meta game but I would recommend that players don't run full play sets of the actual Blood Moon.

What makes it so tough to hose out completely would have to be the fact that most of the creatures are mammoths to deal with as most modern decks in the format would run mainly cards to kill small guys.

Then it still has problems with Mono-Black Aggro and people who have figured out how to hose the deck.

I know all to well about this decks matchup vs thresh. I played a dragon stompy in Top 4 last week. I was able to win post side board with beb, but it was still very difficult and came down to many lucky draws.

[mercenarybdu]

I know all to well about this decks matchup vs thresh. I played a dragon stompy in Top 4 last week. I was able to win post side board with beb, but it was still very difficult and came down to many lucky draws.

I currently have a plan where I have Sphere of Resistances and Thorns in the MB over a few other cards as well as some of those cards in the SB. My version is still in the progress of being put together and I hope to have it operational before mid year.

Might include Defense Grid.

I like the tariff plan of the deck that makes it uniquely hard for those who like Low Prices for spells.

[Maveric78f]

You'd better play some stone rains than thorns. Your game plan is to cut the coloured mana of your opponent and adding thorns will not help in any way. Trinisphere is good because it's %3 and %3 is a lot for a deck playing 17/18 1-mana producing lands. If you play stone rain (or the haste echo guy for 3R), you can get rid of his basic lands and keep colour screwing him.

by the way, playing BEB in DS is very unexpected and tech ^^.

[Dark_Cynic87]

How do you manage blue elemental blast? Don't you mean reb? Beb sounds rediculous...

[Silvoz]

He was playing the Thresh VS. Dragonstompy! He just tells us that it's hard to beat but possible!

[Braves]

He was playing the Thresh VS. Dragonstompy! He just tells us that it's hard to beat but possible!

My friend has a dragon stompy deck, we havent been able to play test much. But the games he beats me are, t1 chalice @ 1, and t1 bloodmoon and me on no basics.

[largebrandon]

What do you think of Gemstone Caverns in the MD? Helps get an even more explosive start

[Silvoz]

What do you think of Gemstone Caverns in the MD? Helps get an even more explosive start

And does nothing when drawn later, no never! It may give an exlosive start sometimes, but only on the draw! This card is unplayable in DS!

[Nihil Credo]

And does nothing when drawn later
Other than tap for :1: (:r: with a Moon in play), you mean?

[Dilettante]

Well, the issue is... is that "explosive start" worth what you give up? Considering that the land base is 10 mountains, 4 City of Traitors, 4 Ancient Tomb, you don't want to give up the consistent acceleration that CoT and AT provide... and if you dip into the mountains... do you really want to rely on drawing into 14(10) total sources in your deck instead of 18(14) that can fix your mana deficiencies after your draw? Pretty much if you DON'T get a Gemstone Caverns in your opening hand, you pretty much NEED that hand to have a Blood Moon and a red source or 2 Mountains/Moxes... on top of accelerants.

Personally, I'd rather take the consistency of a Mountain than risk mulliganning to a loss.

[Tacosnape]

Also, Gemstone Caverns maindeck is running a conflict of interest with your plan of success. You want to go first. Your deck is 100 times better when you do. Dragon Stompy might get more out of going first than any deck in Legacy. So you're essentially in running Gemstone Caverns, you would be running a card that's punishing you for doing what your deck does best.

[Nihil Credo]

Also, Gemstone Caverns maindeck is running a conflict of interest with your plan of success. You want to go first. Your deck is 100 times better when you do. Dragon Stompy might get more out of going first than any deck in Legacy. So you're essentially in running Gemstone Caverns, you would be running a card that's punishing you for doing what your deck does best.
I'm skeptical about Gemstone Caverns myself, but that isn't a valid argument. 50% of the time you'll go second whether you want it or not, and that is the chance for Caverns to shine; to decide whether it deserves inclusion, you have to figure out whether that is better than the colour-screws you'll get from an extra colourless source.

The above of course applies to running a singleton copy for mising purpose. Running multiples and planning on always drawing first would be simply retarded, for a shitload of reasons.

[Tacosnape]

I'm skeptical about Gemstone Caverns myself, but that isn't a valid argument. 50% of the time you'll go second whether you want it or not, and that is the chance for Caverns to shine; to decide whether it deserves inclusion, you have to figure out whether that is better than the colour-screws you'll get from an extra colourless source.

It's completely valid to discount a card based on the fact that it sucks when you're on the draw. Peruse threads and you'll find people doing it all the time. So why isn't it correct to discount a card that sucks when you're on the play?

It's also a valid argument because the incredible strength of the deck going first is an integral part of the deck's strategy. Dragon Stompy wins matches because it's so incredibly powerful when it goes first that it's favored against almost every single deck in the format. And while Dragon Stompy is much much worse on the draw, it's not as bad on the draw as it is insanely good on the play.

Third, it's hard to even make the argument that Gemstone Caverns helps you on the draw as much as it hurts you on the play. Gemstone Caverns in DS would make playing first a nightmare of inconsistency. Dragon Stompy's biggest weakness is its mulligans already.

[someone_unimportant]

Well, if you do play the miser's Gemstone Caverns, you would probably cut a spell for it since it sucks so much at producing mana. If the benefits of the singleton outweigh the cons of losing consistency on some other card, I could see it. That said, still probably no.

[Nihil Credo]

It's completely valid to discount a card based on the fact that it sucks when you're on the draw. Peruse threads and you'll find people doing it all the time. So why isn't it correct to discount a card that sucks when you're on the play?
The problem is that your argument claimed "Dragon Stompy's strength comes from explosive on-the-play openings, so Gemstone Caverns is especially bad here". But this isn't relevant, because if Deck X has a power level of 9001 on the play and 0.5 on the draw, and Deck Y vice-versa, Gemstone Caverns is still a super-Mox equally as often (i.e. 50% times the chance to have it in your opening hand), and is equally as often a crappy colourless land.

To put it another way: if your deck wins 90% of the time on the play, and 10% on draw, and changing a card moved that to 80% on the play and 30% of the draw, it would be an improvement even though the deck is no longer as 'explosive'.

[Tacosnape]

Gemstone Caverns is still a super-Mox equally as often (i.e. 50% times the chance to have it in your opening hand), and is equally as often a crappy colourless land.

Ah, but Gemstone Caverns isn't. It will be a crappy colorless land more often than it will be a Supermox, because essentially when you're on the draw, you'll have eight cards in your hand before you get to do anything relevant. If GC is that eighth card, it's still bad.

Shooting my whole opening hand strength thing out the window, this doesn't count all the times you're going to topdeck it around turn 2-4.

[Nihil Credo]

"Equally as often" meant "regardless of what deck you put it in". That it's a super-Mox less than half the time is explained between the parentheses.

[savemysoul]

why do we need a mountain that dies to wasteland ?

[mercenarybdu]

Perhaps instead of putting in a land that will be wiped out, how about some Forgotten Caves to trim down the fat of the deck by a card. At least it could be moreof a good use in the event you don't need the lands.

[Phantom]

Sweet Jesus people! What is it about this deck that has people come out of the woodwork suggesting cards which they clearly haven't tested, and are clearly terrible if you have ever even picked the deck up?

The deck is now at least tier 2. It's in the deck to beat forum. We are not looking for sweeping changes, or change for changes sake. I go over to the Thresh thread or the Goblins thread and they don't devolve into one line posts about whether anyone has tried some obscure or crappy card without any explanation of why it would be good, what it would replace, or whether it has been tested.

I try to be patient, and I try to be understanding. I was clueless once and posting here, but I always tried to put a lot of thought into my posts, and i think I succeeded even when I was completely wrong about a card or concept.

/rant

@ Forgotten Caves: Comes into play tapped so it slows us down. We want to be fast. Leaves us more vulnerable to wasteland. Also bad. Often will eat up an entire turn just to replace itself since we only need one red mana to survive, which is not exactly synergous with Hellbent.

@ Gemstone caverns: It's a more interesting thought at least, but there's just no way for the previously stated reasons. i can't imagine our manabase quality (or threat count) with these things added.

[Alfred]

Have you considered Fortune Thief? While the double red morph cost may be troublesome, her ability is insanely good. Against Threshold, which doesn't run a ton of removal, (and a good portion of it being nullified by Chalice) Fortune Theif can keep your boat afloat until you draw into some help.

It's great against Ichorid, which has virtually no way of removing it. Death and Taxes has very few ways of removing it. If you can get it out early against Belcher they need to Belch twice.

Generally, it has a cheap Morph cost and good ability that fits well in a control deck, is a really, really good combat trick. Splitting between this and Akroma seems like a good idea, because if you are running Morphs that hardly ever flip up ATM, why not run one with a randomly game-breaking ability?

[mercenarybdu]

...../rant

@ Forgotten Caves: Comes into play tapped so it slows us down. We want to be fast. Leaves us more vulnerable to wasteland. Also bad. Often will eat up an entire turn just to replace itself since we only need one red mana to survive, which is not exactly synergous with Hellbent.
.....


You are not thinking what I'm thinking. I put this on the table as an option to trim down cards in the deck but the same could be said in actually putting in a set of fetchlands as it wouldn't hurt much at all under the blood moon effects.

The deck is being hyped as it is the most simplest of all of the best decks to put together.

It got that way after Wafo-Tapa placed high at Worlds with it and showed the world that it doesn't take a large amount of money just to play at your best in the format (even without all the expensive lands).

[J.V.]

Also, for the record, I do still advocate Trinisphere in the sideboard of this deck. My decision to exclude it from my sideboard was a metagame call.

Thank you for being a smart DS player. :laugh: Lots of people who cut it say it sucks... I completely agree it is a Meta Call. My personal meta has lots of Thresh, a couple of Goyf Sligh, 3 Recruiter Aluren decks :eek: and many other decks that just get shit on by 3Sphere so I have to keep it main, Naturally in a Stax, Goblin ,etc meta I would side them.

[Tacosnape]

Have you considered Fortune Thief? While the double red morph cost may be troublesome, her ability is insanely good. Against Threshold, which doesn't run a ton of removal, (and a good portion of it being nullified by Chalice) Fortune Theif can keep your boat afloat until you draw into some help.

It's great against Ichorid, which has virtually no way of removing it. Death and Taxes has very few ways of removing it. If you can get it out early against Belcher they need to Belch twice.

Generally, it has a cheap Morph cost and good ability that fits well in a control deck, is a really, really good combat trick. Splitting between this and Akroma seems like a good idea, because if you are running Morphs that hardly ever flip up ATM, why not run one with a randomly game-breaking ability?

Thief is really interesting, actually, but probably not good enough. The knockout punch against it is that it doesn't stop Tendrils of Agony from chewing your face off.

I can see where the potential is, though. It's strong against Ichorid, but some Ichorid decks pack Darkblast to get rid of Yixlid Jailer (And, consequently, Fortune Thief.) Cephalid Breakfast could struggle with it, but eventually they'll learn to board in Crippling Fatigue or something similar to stop it. Against Belcher I like it a lot, mostly because he's a godlike flip against a horde of Warrens tokens. I can also see where it could steal wins against things like Threshold.

[Rinello]

@ Taco:

Someone told me that he runs a version of this deck with no Arcslogger, Dragon, Akroma and Song, with 4 Maulers, 4 Crusher and more equips.

He thinks that this way the deck is strong, as your mana curve is better.

I wanted to know your opinion.

[Afro]

@ Taco:

Someone told me that he runs a version of this deck with no Arcslogger, Dragon, Akroma and Song, with 4 Maulers, 4 Crusher and more equips.

He thinks that this way the deck is strong, as your mana curve is better.

I wanted to know your opinion.

As a frequent player of DS this turns DS in a totally different direction. Crusher is broken with loam and only good without it. 18 Lands + Crusher = the opposite of insane which a turn 1 Slogger or Pit Dragon is. Why not just go broken and play awesome creatures that come out turn 1-2 via acceleration and can essentially win the game THAT turn.

This deck used to play 'good' creatures in it like Siege-Gang and Empty the Warrens. It has evolved into a legitimate tier 1.5 deck. Let us not go backwards.

[DrewliusMaximus]

Although I can only play casually since there doesn't seem to be any organized Legacy stuff around me, I have have noticed good results with a list almost exactly like Taco's latest one (post #561). I've been playing 3 Akromas instead of 4, and 11 mountains. My SB is different, but that's for my limited metagame.

I really liked some points made a while ago by Zork (post #240) about various mana curves, and since the Worlds list was posted I've preferred more mana and bigger threats in DS.

One thing I've tested a little but am not sure of is using a lone Lotus Petal instead of the 11th mountain. Any thoughts?

[mercenarybdu]

Although I can only play casually since there doesn't seem to be any organized Legacy stuff around me, I have have noticed good results with a list almost exactly like Taco's latest one (post #561). I've been playing 3 Akromas instead of 4, and 11 mountains. My SB is different, but that's for my limited metagame.

I really liked some points made a while ago by Zork (post #240) about various mana curves, and since the Worlds list was posted I've preferred more mana and bigger threats in DS.

One thing I've tested a little but am not sure of is using a lone Lotus Petal instead of the 11th mountain. Any thoughts?

Lotus Petal is alright but then it is also one of the risky things to do as you would have to be extra careful upon where the mana is actually going when casting a spell. Then at the same time it could also be a dead draw if you have no other uses to the card when you don't actually need it.

[Tacosnape]

@ Taco:

Someone told me that he runs a version of this deck with no Arcslogger, Dragon, Akroma and Song, with 4 Maulers, 4 Crusher and more equips.


My opinions are threefold:

1. He's playing a different deck.
2. Countryside Crusher sucks in any Tomb/Chalice build.
3. More Equipment makes your deck less consistent. (Edit: More Artifacts in general does this, actually, but Equipment can be worse if your hurting for threat quantity.)


One thing I've tested a little but am not sure of is using a lone Lotus Petal instead of the 11th mountain. Any thoughts?

Every mana source in Dragon Stompy should be one of two things.

1. Permanent. This includes Mountain, Ancient Tomb, and Chrome Mox, and stretches a bit to include City of Traitors.
2. Red, so it can imprint on Mox if your hand is mana-heavy.

Lotus Petal is neither of these. Run the 11th Mountain if you must have another mana source. And if you must have it be a nonland card, run a single Rite of Flame.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

Lotus Petal is neither of these. Run the 11th Mountain if you must have another mana source. And if you must have it be a nonland card, run a single Rite of Flame.

I fully agree with your point of view on the mana sources. However... not that i'm considering running either, but how is a single Rite of Flame better than a Lotus Petal? Petal would enable 2R on your first turn if you start with a Tomb/City; Rite of Flame wouldn't since you need red mana to cast it anyway. Both would only give you +1 red mana, except that Rite requires you to already have access to it.

In any case, i think they're both unnecessary.

[deviant]

Rite of Flame has synergy with chrome mox. And Pyrokinesis if you sb it.
I think he said something of the kind.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

You beat me to it! You're right, Rite of Flame is red. I realised that was the answer so came back to clarify my post but you had already responded. Oh well.

[Dilettante]

I've been trying to examine a variant build based on pinching mana resources in both directions, maindecking four Trinispheres/two Blood Moon and trying to run creatures that can maintain aggro, but sap mana resources or create mana screws when forced to basics... like... Ogre Arsonist/Ravaging Horde, in order to maintain the aggressiveness through the funk you put your opponent through with the earlier disruption, but have difficulty in trying to get the mana curve to remain stable. Is this too mana-intensive a method to examine?

[Rinello]

I think that too many 5 CC cards slow the deck.

This deck stops the enemy from playing anything with moons, chalice etc.. then drops a big threat.

Ogre is not big enough IMHO.

now a question:
Why faerie stompy is not in DTW section while Dragon is?

[Filipinho]

It is based in recent events top 8's.
That's why the decks keep coming in and back.

[Eldariel]

Faerie Stompy has 2 Top 8s in the last datachunk, which is one too few to qualify as a DTW. It has been here previously, but it simply isn't played as much presently as it was at one point; it doesn't play Goyf so many people won't pay it since they don't get to use their shiny 2-mana 6/7s. But enough of that; it doesn't really belong here in the first place. DTW/DTB criteria are listed in the forum post.

In fact, the decks are very opposites in terms of affordability. Dragon Stompy plays only Chrome Mox and Jitte that really cost more than a couple of dollars, making it a great, competitive budget option, while Faerie Stompy plays the two said cards, SoFI, Force of Will and Sea Drake. Simpliest answer to your question is really that Dragon Stompy is played much more since it's much more affordable and thanks to its powerful gameplan and strong hate against the multicolour environment we're looking at, it has solid finishes too.

[Tacosnape]

I've been trying to examine a variant build based on pinching mana resources in both directions, maindecking four Trinispheres/two Blood Moon and trying to run creatures that can maintain aggro, but sap mana resources or create mana screws when forced to basics... like... Ogre Arsonist/Ravaging Horde, in order to maintain the aggressiveness through the funk you put your opponent through with the earlier disruption, but have difficulty in trying to get the mana curve to remain stable. Is this too mana-intensive a method to examine?

The concept of a red land destruction deck in this shell is feasible. The problem is that there probably aren't enough good cards to support it.

The other thing you have to ask yourself is this: Is it really worth trying to attack the opponent's manabase in a way other than through Blood Moon? Obviously, it's nice if you can pick off a basic land or two to back up your Moon, but is it worth dedicating slots in your decks to inferior cards in order to do this?

[deviant]

I think it's better to try and fasten our clock if some changes are to be made - rather than dedicating slots for LD.
I mean, it doesn't sound like a really good tactic to hold onto LD spells (not be hellbent) and wait for our opp. to topdeck a basic just so that we can hit them while they're on the ground.
If we dilute our threats to include LD we give them more time to draw that much-needed basic and do something relevant with it.
(Not that I haven't dreamt of something like avalance riders in this deck myself, but I just don't see it happening before something better gets printed.)
One other thing I'd like to see would be a hard-hitting mountainwalker, but that's not looking like a very good plan either. :(
(The best one I remember was some 3/4 1RR echo guy. Not that the RR matters much in this case 'cause we'd need moon down to make it good anyway but it's just plain bad.)

[Dilettante]

The concept of a red land destruction deck in this shell is feasible. The problem is that there probably aren't enough good cards to support it.

The other thing you have to ask yourself is this: Is it really worth trying to attack the opponent's manabase in a way other than through Blood Moon? Obviously, it's nice if you can pick off a basic land or two to back up your Moon, but is it worth dedicating slots in your decks to inferior cards in order to do this?

Well, it is a maneuver that backs up a Blood Moon/Magus and Trinisphere. I see every land lost in many cases to be worth like a multi-turn Time Walk to draw into the next one, save they have a land glut (advantage: you) or they are playing 4xland.dec (advantage: you). Decks in general these days have less and less land. Leaving an equippable threat on the table (though 3/3 isn't huge, but it isn't another medium-sized body) helps, particularly if you aren't on the go and can't stuff their fetches before they rush for their basic land. However, 5 does seem an exhorbitant cost to do this... and Goblin Settler leaves all of a 1/1 body... But... it is not going for a lock, it is going for tempo improvement. It buys you at least 1 more turn in many scenarios with one of the 10 disrupters in play and without sapping at your own resources beyond that one card. It is not the instant 'win' of Slogger and it isn't a card I'd normally power out with Seething Song, but it can be the final nail in the coffin.

[Redlotus27]

It would seem to me that *most* decks operate at 1-2 lands just fine. Land destruction for the most part is trying to keep the opposition at 1-2 lands realistically. The best thing that ever happend to dragon stompy was the addition of threats. I don't think reducing threats and replacing with LD is a wise move

[Dilettante]

It would seem to me that *most* decks operate at 1-2 lands just fine. Land destruction for the most part is trying to keep the opposition at 1-2 lands realistically. The best thing that ever happend to dragon stompy was the addition of threats. I don't think reducing threats and replacing with LD is a wise move

They operate on 1-2 lands just fine... in a vacuum. The deck is running Chalices, Blood Moons, and Trinispheres. How well does non-red Threshold operate on 1 island that gets conked out when a disrupter is online? Their next basic, I'll let them take their chances... I'll try tourney playtesting a little this weekend... if I can find the 2 Ogres. If I swap out anything to test, it's Akroma... If the hand doesn't look like it can cut it, it becomes a Raider/Mox pitch.

[aristotles_pupil]

Hi!
I think it's time I join in the discussion and share my thoughts on it. I have been playing DS since it's very early start (bloodrock cyclops, masticore etc etc). Back in those days I judged the deck potentially explosive but too unreliable. With a couple of additions from new series (raiders, magus, SSG) the list became more focussed on hellbent and way more reliable. I have taken DS to a couple of tournaments here in Holland and am very pleased with how it runs currently. The highest I came with it was 4th. There are only 2 cards maindeck that I have some reservations about, but more on this later. Here is my current list:

10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors

4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song
4 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
2 Arc-Slogger
2 Akroma, Angel of Fury
4 Gathan Raiders

4 Magus of the Moon
3 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere

4 Jitte
---
60

Sideboard

1 Trinisphere
1 Blood Moon
3 Pyroclasm
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pithing Needle
3 Powder Keg
--
15

My experiences with the deck:
I see DS as a deck that has the following modus operandi:
1 play a lockpiece (Trinisphere, Chalice, Magus, Moon)
2 play a threat (Raiders, magus, dragon etc)
3 play and equip jitte
4 win or
5 if you do not win repeat step 1 and 2

Basically the deck wants to spit out lock pieces, threats and reach hellbent ASAP.
You win, not by locking your opponent out of the game but by delaying him enough for your threats to connect. Which brings me to my reservations:

Arc-Slogger. Fantastic when it hits play, basically a 'oops I win card'. The problem is that it rarely hits play at all. Since you play a Moon effect ASAP reaching 5 mana is basically only possible with Seething Song. If I draw the Slogger in my first hand without a Song it usually winds up as Raider or Mox fodder. Later on however, top decking it screws up hellbent making the Raiders less effective. I had 4 of them main but replaced 2 with Red Akroma. She never screws up hellbent, plays Raider when morphed and when you do draw a song she is somewhat less impressive than the Slogger but still great. Opponents really fear the Raiders so drawing removal is no small feat either. I am going to test 2 Taurean Maulers in place of the remaining Sloggers but do not think they will be better.
I do think that when the meta changes to more basics, and DS is forced to lose / reduce the amount of Moon effects the Slogger becomes more interesting again.

Trinisphere. I have a true love/hate relationship with this card. On the play it can be amazing, on the draw ok, as topdeck useless. I play 3 main because of my meta, and because it can screw up any deck not prepared for it. Against land destruction (mostly Pox and Wasteland) it's very easy to be caught under you own Trinisphere. So if the meta here changes to more Landstill, Pox, Death and Taxes or Wastelands as far as the eyes can see, it will go to the side.

Playing the deck. I noticed that mastering the deck is not as easy as the basic list suggests. Learning what hand to keep and what hand to toss translates directly into your win / loss ratio.

4 Jitte? Yes. I have won more games on an turn 2 jitte equiped Magus or morph than with the Dragon or Slogger. Jitte is removal, reach, protection and livegain all rolled into one. I have not seen a deck yet that is able to abuse Jitte to the extent DS does. 4 copies rarely screw up hellbent, if it does (one in hand, one in play) you just have to do the math: do I get more damage out of one in play w/out hellbent or with hellbent without one? Usually the hellbent route is key. Remove any counters on the jitte in play (pump that dragon!) , then play the copy in your hand, losing both but gaining Hellbent.

One other idea I'd like to coin in: Fatal Frenzy. A red instant :2: R, that basically acts like a red Berserk. Maybe, just maybe in the Slogger slot to speed up the kill with a turn? What are people's thoughts on this? 10/10 trampling Raider sounds good!

I hope has been usefull! :smile:

Mike

[savemysoul]

I think Fatal Frenzy is a win-more card. Usually when you have a 5/5 raider in play, you are going to win

[scrumdogg]

The concept of a red land destruction deck in this shell is feasible. The problem is that there probably aren't enough good cards to support it.

The other thing you have to ask yourself is this: Is it really worth trying to attack the opponent's manabase in a way other than through Blood Moon? Obviously, it's nice if you can pick off a basic land or two to back up your Moon, but is it worth dedicating slots in your decks to inferior cards in order to do this?

Nastynate, a skilled local player who plays the deck & gets results, has Pillage in the sideboard. I love multi-purpose cards & the deck does need some artifact removal, that he can combine that with the ability to whack a non-red basic that sneaked into play makes a lot of sense. Unless undercosted large LD creatures get printed, though, dedicated LD doesn't seem to fit the current deck as it exists.

[Maagler]

Has anyone tried pain kami? It might work as a side board card.

[Tacosnape]

Has anyone tried pain kami? It might work as a side board card.

Why would you run him in a sideboard over Flametongue Kavu? Kavu has double the power and stays in play after it picks off the opposing creature. And anything too big for Kavu to kill would require you throw 6 mana or more at it with Pain Kami, and if you can get that much mana it's easier just to flip an Akroma and win.

[Phantom]

One other idea I'd like to coin in: Fatal Frenzy. A red instant :2: R, that basically acts like a red Berserk. Maybe, just maybe in the Slogger slot to speed up the kill with a turn? What are people's thoughts on this? 10/10 trampling Raider sounds good!


Repeat after me: "Thou shalt not turn StP into card advantage."

It should be one of the holy rules of Legacy deck design. To go further, you could only really run it in the equipment slots (since cutting down on threats or disruption is a bad idea) and it's useless with half of our creature base (turning Magus or SSG in 4/2 tramplers isn't exactly a bomb).

[Tacosnape]

Repeat after me: "Thou shalt not turn StP into card advantage."

It should be one of the holy rules of Legacy deck design. To go further, you could only really run it in the equipment slots (since cutting down on threats or disruption is a bad idea) and it's useless with half of our creature base (turning Magus or SSG in 4/2 tramplers isn't exactly a bomb).

Well, since 9/10 of the discussion in this thread is suggesting janky cards under the assumption that Dragon Stompy is a janky deck and can therefore run janky cards, I'll play devil's advocate here and say that at least Dragon Stompy can shut off Swords to Plowshares.

However, you're absolutely right that Dragon Stompy can't cut threats or disruption to run cute stuff. It has to be equipment. And on top of that, Fatal Frenzy is kind of ehh. Undying Rage would probably be a stronger choice, as it could grow your guys or make their guys unable to block, and at least has the Rancor trick going for it.

But, seriously, yeah, none of these cards are stronger than anything the deck runs already.

[nastynate]

Nastynate, a skilled local player who plays the deck & gets results, has Pillage in the sideboard. I love multi-purpose cards & the deck does need some artifact removal, that he can combine that with the ability to whack a non-red basic that sneaked into play makes a lot of sense. Unless undercosted large LD creatures get printed, though, dedicated LD doesn't seem to fit the current deck as it exists.

I agree. You'd have to dilute the threat density too much (probably cutting all equipment and about 3-5 threats) to fit a dedicated LD component into the deck. It's a cool idea, since LD can hit the basic lands that slip past your blood moons, but it makes winning with a random turn one fattie or an early jitte far less likely.

If you want LD, just play stax instead; for mana denial purposes armageddon and smokestack are far more efficient than blood moon and stone rain.


Well, since 9/10 of the discussion in this thread is suggesting janky cards under the assumption that Dragon Stompy is a janky deck...

It's not janky. It's just a metagame hate deck, and like all metagame hate decks, it only succeeds in metagames where it's hate is effective (barring the occasional turn one seething song into fat).

People suggesting janky cards are probably trying to play it in the wrong metagame (it's not so hot when people run lots of basic lands or red decks), or incorrectly attributing it's success to random brokenness. The primary game plan is simple: play disruption card turn one, play fattie turn two, win before they can deal with both. The randomly broken plays are just that...random.

Fatal frenzy compliments the "oops, I win!" aspect, but only at the expense of card slots that compliment the primary game plan. That's why it not a good fit for this deck.

[Tacosnape]

If you want LD, just play stax instead; for mana denial purposes armageddon and smokestack are far more efficient than blood moon and stone rain.

I think this is a very good point. White Stax is going to be far superior at playing a Tomb/Chalice LD Shell than Dragon Stompy is ever going to be. Dragon Stompy is an aggro deck first that relies on far less disruption cards by trying to have as many potential game-winning ones as possible (Chalice and Moon, namely.)

[aristotles_pupil]

Fatal frenzy compliments the "oops, I win!" aspect, but only at the expense of card slots that compliment the primary game plan. That's why it not a good fit for this deck.

Yeah, I agree with this. The deck is nice and tight as it is. I just came across this card and well, the idea of a red berserk got some juices flowing... :tongue:


"Thou shalt not turn StP into card advantage."

Well, equally so is a Slogger you played of a Seething Song that gets STP'd. Worse if you removed a SSG also. Let's face it this deck is loaded with potential card advantage targets for the opponent: Chrome mox, flipped raiders, any threat you used seething song to get, anyting you removed a SSG for...
So I consider this a moot point really. I do agree that Fatal Frenzy is a Win More / oops I win card. It has no place in DS.

Mike

[mercenarybdu]

I'm currently in the process of expoliting the deck with unexploered materials starting with Tarox and Rathi Dragon. Followed by those cards, Sphere of Resistance and Thorn of Am.

Thought about Lightning Dragon but then dismissed.

I'm in the process of finalizing my plan, and looking out for the right price for those cards in this cripplied economy.

[ParkerLewis]

I'm currently in the process of expoliting the deck with unexploered materials starting with Tarox and Rathi Dragon. Followed by those cards, Sphere of Resistance and Thorn of Am.


Tarox : Triple R, really ? I don't see that happening in this deck.
Rathi Dragon : Looks like a very bad gamble to me. If the opponent finds any way to get it removed, he just 3-for-friggin'-1 you. Not to mention you most probably can't do anything anymore since you've thrown away all your colored mana playing him.

Sphere of resistance/Thorn of Am : look just like bad Trinispheres to me...

[DragoFireheart]

I'm currently in the process of expoliting the deck with unexploered materials starting with Tarox and Rathi Dragon. Followed by those cards, Sphere of Resistance and Thorn of Am.

Thought about Lightning Dragon but then dismissed.

I'm in the process of finalizing my plan, and looking out for the right price for those cards in this cripplied economy.

Rathi Dragon is a really, really, REALLY bad idea.

[Dilettante]

Rathi Dragon is a really, really, REALLY bad idea.

Agreed. This deck relies on constant pressure... and only 10 mountains. Don't do your opponents' land destruction work for them.

[mercenarybdu]

Tarox : Triple R, really ? I don't see that happening in this deck.
Rathi Dragon : Looks like a very bad gamble to me. If the opponent finds any way to get it removed, he just 3-for-friggin'-1 you. Not to mention you most probably can't do anything anymore since you've thrown away all your colored mana playing him.

Sphere of resistance/Thorn of Am : look just like bad Trinispheres to me...

Well if you want to see what works and doesn't work, you just have to find out for yourself. All these net decks had to start somewhere.

Although net decking is great for those who don't want to spend a lot of time trying doing the research on a prototype or even make an attempt to make something new, it gets kinda blah afterwards.

So with my mad insanity, I'm going to take all the risks possible to see where it all ends up. If Threshold, Landstill, Goblins and all of the other established architypes could have so many different variations, so could this one.

-----
-----

Okay, I was wrong about the Rathi plan. So I'll see what happens with Tarox, as that section hasn't been tested yet opposed to the Akroma plan (that has already been proven).

I have no plans of running Jitte in my plan.

[ParkerLewis]

Well if you want to see what works and doesn't work, you just have to find out for yourself. All these net decks had to start somewhere.

Although net decking is great for those who don't want to spend a lot of time trying doing the research on a prototype or even make an attempt to make something new, it gets kinda blah afterwards.

So with my mad insanity, I'm going to take all the risks possible to see where it all ends up. If Threshold, Landstill, Goblins and all of the other established architypes could have so many different variations, so could this one.

Yeah, yeah. Yet, I don't think we need someone to playtest Squire in Dragon Stompy (well, or any deck for that matter) to know what the results 'll be.

The cards you suggested are just like that. So awfully inadequate they can safely be labeled as "bad idea".

It's good to be open to new suggestions, but it's so crystal clear that those cards are simply either unplayable (and by that, i mean you actually won't be able to cast them due to mana requirements : Tarox), so awfully risky for such little compared to other options (Rathi Dragon), or strictly worse than present cards (Sphere/Thorn compared to Trini), that honestly it's not worth your time trying - unless of course you're building another deck : you're putting spells below 3cc, which the absolute antisynergy with your deck since your plan IS to make those spells unplayable (trini/chalice), removing the 2-mana lands for basic mountains (to be able to play Tarox/Rathi Dragon)... unless you're also in for removing Moons instead ?

Sorry, these cards just don't fit in Dragon Stompy.

[Nihil Credo]

Didn't Wafo-Tapa assemble a Dragon Stompy list with Tarox Bladewing? Assuming that guy knows how manabases work, I would say that's sufficient ground for at least giving the card a try.

[kabal]

Didn't Wafo-Tapa assemble a Dragon Stompy list with Tarox Bladewing? Assuming that guy knows how manabases work, I would say that's sufficient ground for at least giving the card a try.

Actually, he (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=234418) had 2 Rorix Bladewing in the board.

[Nihil Credo]

Ah, wrong Bladewing then. Never mind.

[Tacosnape]

Tarox Bladewing might be a better option than Rorix Bladewing because of the synergy with Seething Song and the insanely bizarre way its ability works with the deck, but it really isn't going to be better than Arc-Slogger or Rakdos Pit Dragon or probably even Akroma, Angel of I'm The Red One. It's going to clog your hand up and lose you games more than it's going to win you games, and boo that.

Seriously, though, if you're going to suggest a semi-janky red creature, you probably need to answer three questions about it:

1. Why is this better than Taurean Mauler?
2. Why is this better than Sulfur Elemental?
3. Why is this better than Akroma, Angel of Fury?

Because those are the three semi-janky red creatures vying for spots in the deck already. Everything else (Magus, Raiders, Dragon, SSG, and at least 3 of the Sloggers) are pretty much cemented in stone for the time being, as they're all far better than the three guys listed above, who are so far well beyond the rest.

EDIT: Also, apparently Dragon Stompy won our local shop tournament tonight. Damn that I had to work and miss it.:(

[mercenarybdu]

I already intend to play with both Bladewings (2 Rorix and 4 Tarox) in the MB when I do figure out what to cut and slip them in as I have cast the Jitte Plan in pursuit of Swords to give me more card drawing.

[savemysoul]

Tarox is only castable with a song in your hand, in any other case it will lie in your hand waiting for a raider to be discarded to

[chokin]

Rorix costs 6, and can only be cast with a Seething Song in hand, plus a few other mana sources. Like a Song, Tomb/City, SSG, SSG for turn 1...5 cards for a 6/5 hasted flier on turn 1. If you wanted to drop this puppy on turn 2, you need to cast Song and have one more mana somewhere in there.'

Rorix is too much of an investment...and hard to cast. Akroma is easier because you don't need to have 6 mana right away...you can have 3, then 6 later. And she will firebreath (rawr).

Tarox seems more viable, but without having duplicates, he's an expensive hasted Sea Drake without the drawback of 2 lands bouncing back. If you manage to pitch another Tarox pal, he only gets +4/+4...it gets hot after that though. I highly doubt that people are going to have 3-4 Tarox in the opening hands anyways though. How awesome would it be to have:

Seething Song, Tomb, SSG, and 4 Tarox.

Pewpewpew, smash for 32. Highly unlikely, but it'd be cool.

Final note: Rorix probably not so hot. Tarox isn't that good unless you have another.

[savemysoul]

What do you mean Tarox isn`t that good ? He`s terrible, DS and 3 red mana sources don`t mix. And i would rather play (in deck and off song) a slogger than a crappy 4/3 as the 5cc creature, and running both will seriously lower consistancy as it was proven before.



I'm in the process of finalizing my plan, and looking out for the right price for those cards in this cripplied economy.

Ok DS without city, mox and the 4 equipment costs 50€, No fetch, no dual, no fow, no thoughsieze, no goyf.

[mercenarybdu]

What do you mean Tarox isn`t that good ? He`s terrible, DS and 3 red mana sources don`t mix. And i would rather play (in deck and off song) a slogger than a crappy 4/3 as the 5cc creature, and running both will seriously lower consistancy as it was proven before.



Ok DS without city, mox and the 4 equipment costs 50€, No fetch, no dual, no fow, no thoughsieze, no goyf.

I'm still keeping the land base the same except I'm just making mods here and there to make look less like I pulled it off the net.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Why should it matter whether or not you took it from the internet? The mana base is chosen for its power.

[mercenarybdu]

Why should it matter whether or not you took it from the internet? The mana base is chosen for its power.

The rehash is the thing I've always kept on my mind each time I build or even play against a deck.

The more the deck is netted then the more people are going to find ways of beating it or equilibrating the heck out of it than something that wasn't just found off the net.

Although I found these plans off the net doesn't mean I'm going to put it together card for card, but because I found that this deck has a lot of promise of proving the majority wrong that they don't have to break the bank just to put together a Legacy deck other than just Affinity and U/G Madness.

[nastynate]

Why should it matter whether or not you took it from the internet? The mana base is chosen for its power.

I totally agree. I was working on my own version of Mono-Red Chalice Aggro before I stumbled across Dragon Stompy and realized most of the work had already been done for me. I'm quite happy to have been able to shamelessly steal ideas from this deck instead of blindly bungling along on my own.

Your on this forum because there are good deck ideas to mine here. Don't be ashamed of doing something intelligent.

[from Cairo]

The more the deck is netted then the more people are going to find ways of beating it or equilibrating the heck out of it than something that wasn't just found off the net.

Sort of, I mean sometimes you can find something really techy for your meta that is a surprising change that is powerful, that people aren't going to expect or have planned for. But for the most part the deck lists that are being posted that are with in a card or two of each other (and putting up good numbers in various metas) are that way for a reason. They are optimalized and the builders have tested different slots and found the numbers add up right so you see enough of specific cards in average games, etc.

[savemysoul]

The more the deck is netted then the more people are going to find ways of beating it or equilibrating the heck out of it than something that wasn't just found off the net.

Yes that is true, but lets say parhaps you build a deck on your own (I do it quite often not just for fun, to go to turnaments), fitting diffrent cards into DS
will defenetly bring an element of suprise, but the deck itself will be weaker and it will be harder to win for you by defoult. so suprise vs better cards - more consistancy.

[DrewliusMaximus]

Side Board Idea: A while ago, Yamaelle suggested using 4 Silent Arbiters in the Faerie Stompy thread, as a SB option against Goblins and other decks like Ichorid. I haven't been able to test, but it seems like that concept could work even better for Dragon Stompy. Yes/No?

[savemysoul]

And against EtW tokens, breakfast that uses kiki, its a very good idea

[Dark_Cynic87]

I like the arbiter. What would you board out? Blood Moon effects against goblins? I'd board out Moon effects for a set of Arbiters and depending on your build, add in the last 2x 3spheres. I hate Lackey. I wish all goblin cards would spontaineously combust. Exept for welder, maybe...oh, and squee; he's cool.

What about R-Quakes/Quakes in the board? Would that help any matchup? I have always liked them against EtW, and they have always been a pretty good board clearer in decks like these against elves/gobbos and zoo varients if they happen to come back. They do damage to an opponent, which helps the clock a bit, plus most of our creatures can stand up to it (but face-down critters will get hit...).

Can someone explain to me why we don't use Razorcore? Just curious, since it's a 5/5 first striker that helps maintain hellbent AND deters blockers with it's 3 damage a turn thing. Not to mention it's easily cast with a Seething Song. Just curious. I'm sure there's a good reason, I just can't find it.

--DC

[Dilettante]

I like the arbiter. What would you board out? Blood Moon effects against goblins? I'd board out Moon effects for a set of Arbiters and depending on your build, add in the last 2x 3spheres. I hate Lackey. I wish all goblin cards would spontaineously combust. Exept for welder, maybe...oh, and squee; he's cool.

What about R-Quakes/Quakes in the board? Would that help any matchup? I have always liked them against EtW, and they have always been a pretty good board clearer in decks like these against elves/gobbos and zoo varients if they happen to come back. They do damage to an opponent, which helps the clock a bit, plus most of our creatures can stand up to it (but face-down critters will get hit...).

Can someone explain to me why we don't use Razorcore? Just curious, since it's a 5/5 first striker that helps maintain hellbent AND deters blockers with it's 3 damage a turn thing. Not to mention it's easily cast with a Seething Song. Just curious. I'm sure there's a good reason, I just can't find it.

--DC

I've been using R-Earthquake instead of Pyroclasm. I just don't find instances where I need to clear the board at only 2 for 2 mana and I don't want to make dead 4 board clears when I chalice for 2. It's just that it's a solution that today costs $160-$200 instead of $8. I do not see the life loss as a drawback since whenever you do need a board clear, it's to prevent big, massive swings, and once you remove it, the tide just shifts completely in your favor... considering the instances you typically really do need it, everything you have would survive it.

Razorcore is card disadvantage. It deters blockers... to a degree... but a token generator can be the death of you. It takes away upward tempo to keep you at a somewhat advantageous point statically as long as it stays in play... Cards are more valuable than mana by the time you can churn it out... I would not run a Razormane over an Arc-slogger, given the creatures played currently... and I only run 3 Slogger. If I was going for more creatures in the same role, I'd choose it after 4 Slogger first. +1 damage and first strike is not worth the ability to add another threat every other draw to me.

[Afro]

Can someone explain to me why we don't use Razorcore? Just curious, since it's a 5/5 first striker that helps maintain hellbent AND deters blockers with it's 3 damage a turn thing. Not to mention it's easily cast with a Seething Song. Just curious. I'm sure there's a good reason, I just can't find it.

--DC

The 5cc kills Razormane in this deck. He fights for Arc Sloggers spot at the 5 and Slogger is just better. While you do have the Seething Song for the ramp it always won't be there when you need it and it sucks to get 2 for 1ed when they show a Daze or Force on what you are trying to ramp out.

[Hightower]

Quick note:

Razormane Masticore fucks you up -> you dont have hellbent with it in play, since you need to always keep 1 card for your upkeep..

[DrewliusMaximus]

What would a sideboard with 4 Silent Arbiters look like?

I like Tacosnape's latest maindeck build (using 4 R'Akromas, no Trinis, 10 Mountains, 2 Jittes, etc.), so maybe a SB for it could be something like:

4 Silent Arbiter
4 Pithing Needle
4 Trinisphere
3 Tormod's Crypt

or

4 Silent Arbiter
3 Pithing Needle
3 Trinisphere
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Tormod's Crypt

Is this reasonable?

[Phantom]

I can't see any reason why anyone would ever run Arbiter over Clasm, Earthquake, or even Pyrokenisis in this deck. Goblins now has roughly 17 ways to kill it thanks to tutorable answers in either splash (Hooligan or Edict) on top of Incinerators and Grips. Not to mention the fact that when it comes to answers to EtW or Goblins, cheaper is MUCH better.

[Filipinho]

Silent Arbiter is decent in Faerie Stompy, with counters to back it up and without mass removal, but, in red, i think it's subpar.

[savemysoul]

Can someone explain to me why we don't use Razorcore?

He`s worse than slogger and he ruins you plan of having hellbent. If you check back he was included in some lists
o and DS doesn`t run any mass removal either

[DrewliusMaximus]

Those are good points about Silent Arbiter's weaknesses in DS...too bad it seems it won't work. It was an interesting idea though.

[Dark_Cynic87]

I've always wanted to do something with Glacial Crevasses. It's probably another subpar card since it can be P. Needled, plus it tosses your lands that you only run 10-11 of max with no reccursion, but I thought I'd throw it out there. I guess for the most part it wouldn't do anything any better than a Rolling Earthquake. Eh, nvm.

My bad on the helping with hellbent with the 'Core. Overlooked that, thanks for the enlightenment. That's why I asked, I suppose.

Ok, next question (Which is what people need to do; question why they do things):

Is SoFI better than SoLS? Does the card draw ever hurt your Hellbent? I don't know that this deck is exactly begging for the card draw. Would reccursion help with the complaints of people not hitting enough threats?

Just trying to understand the deck more intimately. I've been rolling all over people with this deck here, but that's not saying much.

--DC

[Phantom]

Honestly, the anti synergy between SoFI and Pit dragon has been WAY overblown (note that there is NO anti synergy with Raiders). I mean, we run 4 Dragons and somewhere between 1 and 3 swords, so it won't come up that often, and when it does, you usually win the game anyway because you're connecting with a pumpable dragon with a sword attached!

This is one of those problems that is 10% real, and 90% in peoples heads.

[Tacosnape]

Dear God, what is this degenerating into?

Silent Arbiter is an awful idea. Awful awful awful. You are Dragon Stompy. You are aggro by every definition of the word. You win games by swinging with large numbers of large creatures. You do not win games by running 1/5 creatures that keep you from swinging.

Faerie Stompy might get away with this guy because most of its attackers have flying and therefore it can afford to play a slower game due to evasion. Hell, you might find some deck that uses SA with Doran. But it does not belong in Dragon Stompy in any way whatsoever.

Silent Arbiter isn't red. It doesn't kill your opponent. And it doesn't fix your manabase. And it doesn't provide nearly enough disruption to warrant not doing any of these things. It's trash.


Quick note:

Razormane Masticore fucks you up -> you dont have hellbent with it in play, since you need to always keep 1 card for your upkeep..

Everybody read this. Seriously. Hightower is 100% exactly right.

It's been mentioned about fifteen times in this thread. Razormane Masticore is eliminated from being played by the presence of Gathan Raiders and Rakdos Pit Dragon, who highly prefer you go into an attack step with no cards in hand. Razormane Masticore dies next turn if you ever do this. Razormane isn't as good as Gathan Raiders. No threat in the deck is as good as Gathan Raiders. Therefore if Gathan Raiders says Razormane can't be on the team, which it does, Razormane can't be on the team.

[mercenarybdu]

Here is my current plan for my version....

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
12 Mountain

4 Tarox (5)
4 Arc-Slogger (5)
4 Pit Dragon (4)
4 Magus of the Moon (3)
4 Spirit Guide (3)
3 Rorix (6)

4 Chrome Mox :0:
4 Chalice of the Void (XX)
2 Sword of Fire and Ice (3)
3 Trinisphere (3)
4 Seething Song (3)

SB
TBD

....I also posted up all of the converted mana costs for all the cards as the similes put too much of a cap on how many I could put up at once.

[DrewliusMaximus]

I want to apologize if my AWFUL thought about Silent Arbiter offended anybody. While I am tempted to respond angrily to a certain post, I am aware that some people define themselves exclusively through collectible card games and thus need to say stupid things to feel important. At least these people sometimes come up with good deck ideas, so I guess they do serve ONE purpose in this world.

[Phantom]

I want to apologize if my AWFUL thought about Silent Arbiter offended anybody. While I am tempted to respond angrily to a certain post, I am aware that some people define themselves exclusively through collectible card games and thus need to say stupid things to feel important. At least these people sometimes come up with good deck ideas, so I guess they do serve ONE purpose in this world.

Why would you be angry? I don't think anyone attacked you personally, just the merits of your ideas. If you disagree, defend the idea. If you don't, then let's move on. If you want to avoid this in the future, play the deck a ton and come up with quality posts with interesting ideas, detailed thoughts on what it will replace and what purpose it will serve.

[mercenarybdu]

I want to apologize if my AWFUL thought about Silent Arbiter offended anybody. While I am tempted to respond angrily to a certain post, I am aware that some people define themselves exclusively through collectible card games and thus need to say stupid things to feel important. At least these people sometimes come up with good deck ideas, so I guess they do serve ONE purpose in this world.

Everyone has their opinions and there is no offense about them dude but as long as it doesn't start a flame war it is all kool.

[scrumdogg]

Here is my current plan for my version....

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
12 Mountain

4 Tarox (5)
4 Arc-Slogger (5)
4 Pit Dragon (4)
4 Magus of the Moon (3)
4 Spirit Guide (3)
3 Rorix (6)

4 Chrome Mox :0:
4 Chalice of the Void (XX)
2 Sword of Fire and Ice (3)
3 Trinisphere (3)
4 Seething Song (3)

SB
TBD

....I also posted up all of the converted mana costs for all the cards as the similes put too much of a cap on how many I could put up at once.

You've jacked your average CC through the roof while cutting the disruption? I'm at a loss to see how this improves the deck as it interferes with the basic plan to quickly drop a piece of disruption & a fat guy & beat while the opponent flounders. You are more than able to play this build (or any build or any deck that you choose) but please explain why any of the rest of us should?

[Michael Keller]

3 Rorix (6).

Wouldn't Covetous Dragon be a much better choice - especially off Seething Song? Seems no one likes him because of his condition, perhaps? I think he's a monster early or late game.

[Filipinho]

I don't think Covetous Dragon is needed, but if you do, please add Great Furnace.

[Michael Keller]

...please add Great Furnace.

So his mana-base can be more susceptible to Wasteland and artifact hate while he has 3Sphere on the board and losing the City of Traitors to other lands? There's no need for Furnace - at all. The base is solid as it is.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

As I've said on the Salvation fourms;

...it [Covetous Dragon] should not be run. You shouldn't open your self into card disadvantage so easily in a deck that overextends. Raiders and Dragons are exceptions due to their sheer power.

[Michael Keller]

As I've said on the Salvation fourms;
You shouldn't open your self into card disadvantage so easily in a deck that overextends.

Okay, so what you're saying is: Overextend your resources (assuming a Covetous Dragon is on the table), because that is how the deck plays. You should have an ample amount of artifacts on the table to prevent that from being sacrificed - it just won't happen. Plus, if someone is going to StP it, they'd better do it or pretty much lose. Otherwise, I don't see you having anything to lose, especially if you drop Chalice for one TURN one.

Turn One: Ancient Tomb, Chalice for One.
Turn Two: Mountain/Mox, Ancient Tomb, Seething Song, Dragon.

You put your opponent in a predicament where now they have to Force it through your Chalice for one - stopping Swords. And you're sitting there with a 6/5 flying creature. That is generally GG if they don't have it.

[Phantom]

Turning Krosan Grips into 2-for-1's and Ancient Grudges into 3-for-1's isn't what this deck wants. Plus, we are in NO WAY looking for more 5 drops, so he would have to take Sloggers spot, and that's not about to happen.

I would probably play him over Rorix, but Rorix is complete crap here, and no one should run him. We have, you know, three GOOD creatures vying for basically 1.5 slots, so why run hard to cast bad ones?

[Michael Keller]

Turning Krosan Grips into 2-for-1's and Ancient Grudges into 3-for-1's isn't what this deck wants. Plus, we are in NO WAY looking for more 5 drops, so he would have to take Sloggers spot, and that's not about to happen.

I would probably play him over Rorix, but Rorix is complete crap here, and no one should run him. We have, you know, three GOOD creatures vying for basically 1.5 slots, so why run hard to cast bad ones?

1.) You run 13 artifacts. You won't turn those cards into 2 or 3 for ones - that I can promise you.

2.) By the time someone actually has mana for a Grip - you should have an established threat on the board with counter-active backup. I wouldn't concern myself too much with that. Perhaps the deck needs more artifacts. Anyways, for a deck that calls itself "Dragon Stompy", I can't see how you can't find a way to fit him in there - because he is that good here. Try him out.

[mercenarybdu]

I don't think Covetous Dragon is needed, but if you do, please add Great Furnace.

Perhaps we could go in that direction since I do have some spare set of Great Furnace on hand. But then I would lose haste and leave myself wide open for my opponent to get ideas with his Krosan Grips and other undesirables.

[Phantom]

1.) You run 13 artifacts. You won't turn those cards into 2 or 3 for ones - that I can promise you.

2.) By the time someone actually has mana for a Grip - you should have an established threat on the board with counter-active backup. I wouldn't concern myself too much with that. Perhaps the deck needs more artifacts. Anyways, for a deck that calls itself "Dragon Stompy", I can't see how you can't find a way to fit him in there - because he is that good here. Try him out.

I have. Trust ME, it's not great. Or that is to say, it's too often terrible. The deck is already volitile, why add more inconsistency while not adding much power? There are times I want to pump out a creature on turn one with Song (think Goblins). Dragon can't do that. There are times when I can't stick an artifact and I have to resolve a creature. Dragon can't do that. There are times when I want to play the creature before I play the equipment. Dragon can't do that. There ARE going to be plenty of times you turn Grip and Grudge into card advantage. 13 artifacts doesn't always translate into three on the board. You know what Thresh likes to do? They like to counter our artifacts. Goblins? Tutor up some Hooligans and board in Grip. Loam? Buning Wish -> Shattering Spree -> good game.

This was a suggestion from the very beggining of the deck and i have tested it at all turns. IT IS NOT in any way beytter than Slogger, or pit Dragon, and there is no way I'm cutting a 3cc creature for a 5cc risky one.

[savemysoul]

mercenarybdu loose Tarox and Rorix and add Blood moon, jitte and raiders.

[Tacosnape]

Covetous Dragon's decent, but incredibly risky. The upside of Covetous Dragon's pretty obvious. It has a power of 6 and it flies.

The problem with Covetous Dragon is that destroying Dragon Stompy's artifacts seriously hurts you anyway. Losing a Chalice is generally big, as is losing a Chrome Mox. You'd pick up some artifacts from Great Furnace, sure, but losing the red source would hurt here too. The only artifact you can sometimes afford to lose is a Jitte. (Or a Trinisphere, if you run them.)

This makes any and all artifact destruction very strong against DS. Despite what people may tell you, it isn't all that strong against DS otherwise.

Also, I might add that Pernicious Deed for 0 is usually enough to sweep all your artifacts, meaning it's incredibly effective at getting Covetous Dragon off the board.

[TrialByFire]

I love how every other post in this thread is some random dude suggesting another god-awful card on the basis of because they THINK it will be good, but actually have no ACTUAL testing to back it up. And if they do, said testing suceeds in PROVING the card is god-awful.

Seriously, Tacosnape knows whats up. Stop doubting him.

[mercenarybdu]

mercenarybdu loose Tarox and Rorix and add Blood moon, jitte and raiders.

The T2 players in my area have already driven up the price of Blood Moon to $7 a card after CA sales tax and I didn't find Jitte effective.

Raiders were alright but they're still on my table in the event I need to switch part of the plan back.

[Dilettante]

The T2 players in my area have already driven up the price of Blood Moon to $7 a card after CA sales tax and I didn't find Jitte effective.

Raiders were alright but they're still on my table in the event I need to switch part of the plan back.

http://cgi.ebay.com/1-Blood-Moon-MtG-Magic-1x-x1-Chronicles-Red-Rare_W0QQitemZ130196136891QQihZ003QQcategoryZ101620QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQ_trksidZp1638.m118.l1247QQcmdZViewItem

$9 per playset, inc. shipping.

[deviant]

Talk more about trinis, akroma/sulfur/maulers and equipments.
Some sideboarding discussion would be appreciated also, I think.
And please, pretty please, stop trying to gang-bang this deck. It's called Dragon Stompy yes, but this does not in any way mean that we want to play some ¤&"/# dragons! It's more like MOON stompy goddammit. 8 moon effects, SSG bathes in moonlight, jitte has a moon in the background, even arc-slogger seems to be in the "&%#/# moon. Moons everywhere..

Anyway.. There's a legacy-tournament coming again and I'm debating about those trinispheres. 0 / 2-3 md, if no md, 3 sb? Or just go without, what the heck. I seriously don't know what to do with them.
I would also like to drop the jittes, but they're too good I'm afraid :(
I like the idea of more threats, and I think a 2-2 split between akromas and sulfurs could perform, but those sulfurs are reeeally not good enough. They're more like combat tricks than threats. And 4 Akromas just feel.. weird.

People who have tested maulers: how has he done? Better than sulfur?
Has the inclusion of mediocre threaths like sulfurs been better than trinis?

[savemysoul]

Maulers do wonders for me, but I play 4 3sphere, so a 1turn sphere or CotV, than mauler. Way better than elemental in my opinion and testing against breakfast and U/G/r thresh.

mercenarybdu the deck your building is much worse than the original DS, so where`s the catch ?

[Rinello]

This is My list.


// Lands
10 [MM] Mountain (4)
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors

// Creatures
4 [DIS] Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 [FUT] Gathan Raiders
3 [MR] Arc-Slogger ======> Sometimes it is stuck in my hand
4 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
2 [PLC] Akroma, Angel of Fury ====> I think I'll add 1 more
2 [PLC] Sulfur Elemental =====> Maybe I'll drop them

// Spells
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MR] Seething Song
4 [8E] Blood Moon
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte =====> correct number IMHO as I win a lot of games with Song, Magus or Simian or Morph + Jitte.

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [AL] Pyrokinesis =====> Thinkin about 3 MD, 'cause it helps Hellbent
SB: 4 [DS] Trinisphere =====> never MD as they can be redundant and bad topdeck. Also they are not red card and I win because of them only against Burn and Combo.
SB: 3 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [CH] Tormod's Crypt



I am thinking of a list with +3 Pyrokinesis main +1 Akroma , with -2 Sulfur, -1 Arcslogger, -1 Blood Moon.
In SB: +1 Moon and +1 needle +1 Dunno

[Kuma]

I like Taurean Mauler much more than Sulfur Elemental. For all the talk of Sulfur Elemental being a pseudo-removal spell as a surprise blocker, I've rarely been able to make that happen to any great effect. Even with all the lock pieces, my opponents still cast spells for Mauler, and they only really need to cast one spell before you're swinging for as much damage as a Sulfur Elemental. If they're completely locked out of the game, it doesn't matter which creature we're playing. Mauler almost always draws out a counter or removal spell when I drop him turn one; people are scared to death of this guy when they should be scared of Raiders, Dragon, and Moon.

[Arsenal]

I like Taurean Mauler much more than Sulfur Elemental. For all the talk of Sulfur Elemental being a pseudo-removal spell as a surprise blocker, I've rarely been able to make that happen to any great effect. Even with all the lock pieces, my opponents still cast spells for Mauler, and they only really need to cast one spell before you're swinging for as much damage as a Sulfur Elemental. If they're completely locked out of the game, it doesn't matter which creature we're playing. Mauler almost always draws out a counter or removal spell when I drop him turn one; people are scared to death of this guy when they should be scared of Raiders, Dragon, and Moon.

And that's where he fails. He's a HORRIBLE topdeck, while Sulfur Elemental is equally efficient early or late in the game.

[TrialByFire]

The T2 players in my area have already driven up the price of Blood Moon to $7 a card after CA sales tax and I didn't find Jitte effective.

Raiders were alright but they're still on my table in the event I need to switch part of the plan back.


Blood Moon is not legal in Type 2. And regardless, its not expensive none-the-less. Jitte isn't effective in your deck because you re casting shitty 6 mana dragons. You'll never have the mana available to cast one and equip. Trust me, Jitte is a scary card to see on the other side of the table.

[Rinello]

Blood Moon is not legal in Type 2. And regardless, its not expensive none-the-less. Jitte isn't effective in your deck because you re casting shitty 6 mana dragons. You'll never have the mana available to cast one and equip. Trust me, Jitte is a scary card to see on the other side of the table.

Also with 6 mana I'd rather flip My Sherona *cough-cough* my Akroma.

[Arsenal]

An active Jitte is nuts. I've even casted my own Jitte just to bury my opponent's Jitte. Jitte wins game, period.

Also, Blood Moon can be had on trollandtoad.com for $.99 a piece. Ebay also has them for about $1 a piece. Seriously.

[Michael Keller]

I love how every other post in this thread is some random dude suggesting another god-awful card on the basis of because they THINK it will be good, but actually have no ACTUAL testing to back it up. And if they do, said testing suceeds in PROVING the card is god-awful.

Seriously, Tacosnape knows whats up. Stop doubting him.


I'm not some random dude, dude. And yeah, I have tested it - and I've had no problems with it. In fact, I've won games with it. It's a suggestion that facilitates debate. And it is far from god-awful - it was played in mono-red acceleration/stax variants long before this deck was ever conceived. If it is ruled out as a possibility that's fine - but don't assume one player knows the be all and end all of one solid deck in the format. That's foolish.

[Zork]

I have tested all of the following creatures in this deck:

3cc Red Guys

Arc Mage
Barbarian Bully
Bloodrock Cyclops
Fire Imp
Granite Gargoyle
Hell-Bent Raider
Hulking Ogre
Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
Skirk Shaman
Sulfur Elemental
Suq'Ata Lancer

3cc Art Guys

Phyrexian War Beast
Steel Golem

4cc Red guys

Balduvian Horde
Coal Stoker
Ekundu Cyclops
Flametongue Kavu
Lava Hounds
Pillaging Horde
Rakdos Pit Dragon
Volcano Hellion
Warmonger

4cc Art Guys

Grid Monitor
Juggernaut
Masticore
Synod Centurion

5cc Red Guys

Covetous Dragon
Gathan Raiders*
Tahngarth, Talruum Hero
Tarox Bladewing
Tephraderm

5cc Art guys

Razormane Masticore

Morphs

Akroma, Angel of Fury

Some of the 3cc guys were debatably good compared to Sulfur Elemental in some metagames, but the creature base I settled on was the one I placed with, and I wouldn't change a thing.

[savemysoul]

why didn`t you test mauler ?

[Media314r8]

I really like the idea of 2 Akromas in DS, as once your opponent has seen one/seen a gathan raiders, they will probably neevr get blocked if you have 1 card in hand or six mana open (or 4 + a [seething song] in hand), whichever they are. Swining with a jitte-equipped akroma is a fine too.

EDIT: Harcasting Akroma vs a control deck turn a million could be fun too, esp when they try to FoW her and you point out that she (the spell) can still be targeted by counterspells, but she isn't countered. Seemingly irrelavent line of text could be extremely relevant someday. (and good for infi lulz)

[Arsenal]

EDIT: Harcasting Akroma vs a control deck turn a million could be fun too, esp when they try to FoW her and you point out that she (the spell) can still be targeted by counterspells, but she isn't countered. Seemingly irrelavent line of text could be extremely relevant someday. (and good for infi lulz)

You never know. Some random player playing some random UW control deck could Absorb your Akroma. He still gains the 3 life. Booya!

[savemysoul]

and some random DS player would say something random like : akroma CAN`T be countered and he wouldn`t gain 3 life Booya !

[Arsenal]

Lol, I remember getting into arguments back in 2001 (MM/Invasion Type 2) over Absorb v. Urza's Rage. Although the net result is "nothing changes", it still was interesting to hear people scream at each other about Absorb v. Urza's Rage.

Back on topic, I've been playing Sulfur Elemental and I love him; virtually guaranteed to resolve, 2R cc, instant speed, and the ability to mow down white creatures (Jotun Grunt anyone?) is awesome.

[Rinello]

If he Absorbs I'd punch him in the face.

If he CAN Absorb, He avoided a full 4/4 Moon/Magus strategy.

Akroma is every day better: She makes your opponent think about what lies under my ORANGE sleeves, she can beat THE GAME if Jitte is online,
she can imprint, I'll never stress this enough, and she pitches to Pyro.

Sweet Akroma, I want you in a 4x foil set!

[Jaiminho]

Jitte alone can beat Silver Knight if it's ready. -1/-1 effect isn't red.

Unless its readiness is at 1 counter. Then, I'ma shut up.

[Zork]

why didn`t you test mauler ?

It wasn't out when I did my gauntlet. I have yet to test him, but someday I'll get to it. Honestly, it will be hard to replace Sulfur Elemental.

[Arsenal]

Yeah, I love Sulfur Elemental too. Akroma is the only creature I would think of replacing him with, and even then, probably not all 4.

Sulfur Elemental should read:
I laugh at Grunts. I kill/disable White Weenie hordes. I can play neat combat tricks. I'm equally effective mid/late game as I am on turn 1. I'm virtually guaranteed to resolve.

[savemysoul]

And why would mauler be a bad topdeck ? He reads : your opponent doesn`t play spells or this gets fat.

[Jak]

When you are facing down a Goyf and you need to top deck something relevant like a Slogger or Akroma and you flip a Mauler. That is a bad topdeck.

[Arsenal]

And why would mauler be a bad topdeck ? He reads : your opponent doesn`t play spells or this gets fat.

If you really think that Mauler is a "good" topdeck on turn 6, then by all means, play him.

Personally, I want to run unconditionally good/effective creatures, that can be equally effective regardless of when they are drawn/resolved. Sulfur Elemental fits into my requirements, Taurean Mauler does not.

[J.V.]

Yes, Jak is correct. Mauler was appealing upon first glance, but testing has shown that it is just an awful card in the deck after turn 1/2, and even then I'd rather drop disruption or a bomb like a dragon or Slogger. Any time you see him mid/late game you really wish he was another creature.

[Rinello]

And why would mauler be a bad topdeck ? He reads : your opponent doesn`t play spells or this gets fat.

"your opponent has a Tarmo who will eat a brand new mauler alive"

or.. "your opponent will stp it"

it is mediocre IMHO.

[savemysoul]

Ok let`s see when facing down a Goyf you topdeck a ... elemental yeah !, much more gamebreaking. But if you get a mauler, your opponent won`t play any spells but only beat with goyf thus making his a better topdeck in the situation you presented

ok lets see turn six you get a 3/2 or turn six you get 2/2, i agree that on hand elemental is better, but in a turn or two mauler will become much better with the option of growing out of hand/sealing the game

[Arsenal]

Ok let`s see when facing down a Goyf you topdeck a ... elemental yeah !, much more gamebreaking. But if you get a mauler, your opponent won`t play any spells but only beat with goyf thus making his a better topdeck in the situation you presented

ok lets see turn six you get a 3/2 or turn six you get 2/2, i agree that on hand elemental is better, but in a turn or two mauler will become much better with the option of growing out of hand/sealing the game

If I cast my Elemental during my opponent's Goyf attack phase, in order to suprise chump block him, now allowing me to swing with my men untouched, then yes, Elemental > Mauler by alot.

Mauler has zero versatility or utility. A resolved Mauler is particularly weak past turn 3. This is fact. Again, if you feel as though Mauler's growth potential outweighs Sulfur's numerous positives and potential for sneakiness, then by all means, play your Mauler.

[J.V.]

Ok let`s see when facing down a Goyf you topdeck a ... elemental yeah !, much more gamebreaking. But if you get a mauler, your opponent won`t play any spells but only beat with goyf thus making his a better topdeck in the situation you presented

ok lets see turn six you get a 3/2 or turn six you get 2/2, i agree that on hand elemental is better, but in a turn or two mauler will become much better with the option of growing out of hand/sealing the game

Yes but the issue with mauler is that unlike Sulfer he DOES suck after turn 1-3. Also there ARE far better things for the deck to drop turns 1-3 so really Mauler although seemingly good (as well as having the perfect mana cost) has no place is DS.

[savemysoul]

arsenal who said anything about any creatures on your side ? with creatures mauler would be even more gold : mauler + 5/5 raiders, slogger, hellbent dragon. I don`t think that goyf would attack with any of thoose on board, if he would, he would loose goyf and if he would play another spell kazam ! Mauler is on his way to becoming a big threat

[Arsenal]

arsenal who said anything about any creatures on your side ? with creatures mauler would be even more gold : mauler + 5/5 raiders, slogger, hellbent dragon. I don`t think that goyf would attack with any of thoose on board, if he would, he would loose goyf and if he would play another spell kazam ! Mauler is on his way to becoming a big threat

Lol, okay. Keep on playing your conditionally, sorta-kinda-maybe good Mauler. I'll stick with unconditional efficiency and consistency in any other creature (Sulfur, Akroma) at that slot.

[savemysoul]

my list is the same as i posted it with 20 creatures and without akromas, maulers or sulfurs main. If I find room to fit in more creatures those will be maulers cuz they proven the most effective in my testing (not sure about akroma, I only know i haven`t flipped her in maybe 50 games i tryed her.)

[Dilettante]

my list is the same as i posted it with 20 creatures and without akromas, maulers or sulfurs main. If I find room to fit in more creatures those will be maulers cuz they proven the most effective in my testing (not sure about akroma, I only know i haven`t flipped her in maybe 50 games i tryed her.)

Hrm... Are you just goldfishing or casting seething song in obvious situations (i.e. in combat)? I have no problems flipping Akroma (I run 2). A 2-mana land and 2 red sources and a seething song... but I intentionally cast creatures with this deck in pre-combat main at times to facilitate such ploys.

[savemysoul]

i play 3 songs and usualy i spend one on a slogger

[Nihil Credo]

Sulfur Elemental should read:
I laugh at Grunts.

Translated: I can trade with a creature that costs 2/3 as much as I do, and which no-one plays anyway.


I kill/disable White Weenie hordes.

Indeed, from the fury of White Weenie protect us, Oh Lord.


I can play neat combat tricks.

True. That's its major selling point, especially if you include the ability to screw up damage races (by dropping a threat at EOT).


I'm equally effective mid/late game as I am on turn 1.

So is Bloodrock Cyclops.


I'm virtually guaranteed to resolve.

MUC aside, decks these days run 8 hard counters at the most. If Elemental didn't have Split Second, it would still be allowed to resolve 90% of the time, considering that there are far more dangerous bombs in Dragon Stompy to watch for.

The exception is Daze, against which Sulfur Elemental gives you the option to drop something worthwhile before you get the extra mana required to dodge it.

[Arsenal]

Translated: I can trade with a creature that costs 2/3 as much as I do, and which no-one plays anyway.



Indeed, from the fury of White Weenie protect us, Oh Lord.



True. That's its major selling point, especially if you include the ability to screw up damage races (by dropping a threat at EOT).



So is Bloodrock Cyclops.



MUC aside, decks these days run 8 hard counters at the most. If Elemental didn't have Split Second, it would still be allowed to resolve 90% of the time, considering that there are far more dangerous bombs in Dragon Stompy to watch for.

The exception is Daze, against which Sulfur Elemental gives you the option to drop something worthwhile before you get the extra mana required to dodge it.

Except you're taking my entire post out of context; I was comparing Sulfur Elemental to Taurean Mauler. As such, the "Bloodrock Cyclops" comment doesn't hold a whole lot of water as, again in context, Sulfur > Mauler in terms of many things, one of them being able to be effective turn 1 to turn 100. The same cannot be said about Mauler.

Taurean Mauler cannot trade with Grunt, without assistance from opponent. Also, Grunt is played in Legacy, I don't know what meta you play in, but Grunt is a commonly used creature in Legacy.

WW is something you will ALWAYS come up against at any tourney of decent size. Maybe not in your circle of playtesters, but go to any 40+ tourney, and you will see jank like this there.

If you want to make witty replies to my post, at least do it within the correct context.

[savemysoul]

The only card you will give to feed Grunt is the one you pitch to gathan + what they counter. I don`t fear 2 turns lasting Grunts much.

[Rinello]

The only card you will give to feed Grunt is the one you pitch to gathan + what they counter. I don`t fear 2 turns lasting Grunts much.

Plus any fetch, cantrip and other stuff he put in HIS GY, If I am not wrong.

[savemysoul]

yea like i said two turns

[Maagler]

hey everyone this is my cutrrent maindeck list

Lands
10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors

Creatures
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Arc-Slogger
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide

Spells
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song
3 Blood Moon
3 Trinisphere
3 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

I actualy need help on my side board. My meta is filled with a lot of threhold and not too much combo. I was thinkng about including some amount of Tephraderm since they eat Tarmogoyf for breakfast, but I understand the pros and cons to him, including his mana cost. The only thing I dont really want to get for the side is pithing needle because of its cost, but I do not mind breaking the bank too much if they are neccisary because the whgole deck is pretty economical. Also I am pretty sure that I want to add another trinisphere in side also just because it is rediculus, but not in all matchups. Any suggestions for the side are welcome!

I think this main board is particulay strong and straight forward. I tried Akroma, Angel of Fury and Sulfur Elemental, and found them to be a bit janky for my taistes (although the whole deck seems like that sometimes on bad draws.) I also like the equiptment ratio since Jitte is the best but four is too many.

[Jak]

I really think they both suck. If I had room I would probably play with Sulfur Elemental, but it is not worth cutting anything in my list. Mauler is bad. Don't compare it to Standstill because drawing 3 is so much more powerful than turning your 2/2 into a 3/3. Your opponent will be glad to still play spells. Actually they probably won't be able to play spells at all. You play 7-8 moon effects, Chalice, and maybe Trinisphere. Can we stop discussing Mauler? It sucks.

[savemysoul]

maagler as for your list, if thresh is mostly your meta add another sphere and moon, they really roll to that, goyf can usually be raced with dragon/raiders/slogger

nobody said its more powerfull than standstill, im just saying they need to get rid of it ASAP if they play spells or he`ll be 6/6 in no time

[J.V.]

Andy in out current meta I highly recommend this sideboard:
3 Pithing Needle
3 Powder Keg
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pyroclasm
2 Ingot Chewer
1 Blood Moon
As you know I've been playing the deck for quite a while and this board is highly tested.
Also switch out you SOFI for SOLS pro swords, life gain, and not having awful synergy RPD all make it simply better.

[Maagler]

Tom, Have you tried pyrokinisis? I have not tested it extensivly but it looks like it would have good synergy with helbent. also do you dissagree with a 4th trinsphere in side, or in main?

Thanks, Andy

[J.V.]

I've tested it, but it has the 2 major flaws of being awful when your in topdeck mode (which happens often due to hellbent being so crucial) and the fact that There is so much thresh in our meta and Trinisphere is just needed which obv has bad synergy with Kenesis.
As for Sphere number 4 I say don't bother three is plenty since having multiples is just pointless and you really would never end up siding in the 4th.

[Dark_Cynic87]

hey, I've been wondering about a couple Fledgling Dragons...any good? It goes decent with Hellbent, they get decent sized, have auto-evasion as opposed to Pit Dragon, still have firebreathing. I know they are additional 4cc slots, but does it matter that much? I was thinking of them in place of Sulfur Elementals. Thoughts? After all, we do call it Dragon Stompy...

[Tacosnape]

hey, I've been wondering about a couple Fledgling Dragons...any good? It goes decent with Hellbent, they get decent sized, have auto-evasion as opposed to Pit Dragon, still have firebreathing. I know they are additional 4cc slots, but does it matter that much? I was thinking of them in place of Sulfur Elementals. Thoughts? After all, we do call it Dragon Stompy...

This deck getting Threshold requires an act of god.*

If you think Fledgling is worth it unthreshed, go for it. I don't.

*Or a Wrath of God. Which could be considered as the former.

[Phantom]

This deck getting Threshold requires an act of god.

If you think Fledgling is worth it unthreshed, go for it. I don't.

If only there were a similar creature of similar casting cost with more explosive abilities that was determined not by the number of cards in the yard, but by the number of cards in our hand or something...

/jerk

In all seriousness, unless they start printing Spirit Guides with dredge (Hmmm), Threshold creatures are right out.

And yeah, I'm not excited about more 4cc spots, espicially of the :r::r: variety. I mean, if they print another critter of Pit Dragons power level, then we'll have to consider it, but right now there are so many quality 3cc options that there is no reason to bump the curve up.

[mercenarybdu]

hey, I've been wondering about a couple Fledgling Dragons...any good? It goes decent with Hellbent, they get decent sized, have auto-evasion as opposed to Pit Dragon, still have firebreathing. I know they are additional 4cc slots, but does it matter that much? I was thinking of them in place of Sulfur Elementals. Thoughts? After all, we do call it Dragon Stompy...

They are not really good unless you plan to be very creative to figure out how to pull it off to make the Threshold effects worth the while.

Otherwise it is best not to go with that sort of plan.

[Kuma]

Sulfur Elemental should read:
I laugh at Grunts.

So does Slogger, Akroma, Hellbent Raiders and Dragon, anything wielding Jitte/Sword, and Tormod's Crypt. So does Taurean Mauler on occasion. Most of the top decks in Legacy don't run this guy, so this isn't a huge plus.


I kill/disable White Weenie hordes.

In my play experience, Sulfur Elemental usually makes WW even more dangerous. The only things he kills out of combat are Decree of Justice tokens, Mangara, and the odd Savannah Lions. Granted, he's pretty sick in multiples vs. WW, but it's a rare occasion to draw two of them, especially if you're only running two like most lists that run him. It's not like WW is some huge deck either. What he does most of the time is make Silver Knight a 3/1 pro-red, first striker, which is even more of a pain to deal with, and make the rest of their creatures swing for more damage. We already damage ourselves plenty without making our opponent's creatures more lethal.


I can play neat combat tricks.

That is about the extent of Sulfur Elemental's advantages. Occasionally, I'll kill a Bob, or a non-Threshed Mongoose, but otherwise I haven't done much worth noting with Elemental. For all the talk of him being a pseudo-removal spell, I've rarely seen it work to any great effect, and it's not like DS has tons of creatures that it can't/needs to deal with. Usually, he trades with a creature of about equal value. I will concede that Elemental will win an odd game where your opponent relies on you not being able to alpha strike him and that is his greatest strength.


I'm equally effective mid/late game as I am on turn 1.

I disagree. Sulfur Elemental turn one is far from an ideal play. I'd rather play anything in the deck turn one than Elemental, except for Akroma (morphed), SSG, a lone Jitte, or nothing. Taurean Mauler, on the other hand, is a good turn one or two play. People are stupid afraid of Mauler (perhaps unjustly so, but afraid nonetheless). They almost always spend a counter or removal spell on him that they should be saving for a Moon or a superior creature. People rarely waste removal on a Sulfur Elemental. Mauler is poor in the late game, but I don't see why Sulfur is so awesome outside of the odd uninformed attack by the opponent.


I'm virtually guaranteed to resolve.

Split Second on Elemental is nice vs MBC and similar decks, but most decks aren't threatened enough by him to counter him anyway.

Pro's of Mauler:
Good early play
People overrate his value and go out of their way to kill him
Can potentially be huge
Randomly good vs Countersliver and Storm decks when they fail to go off.

Con's of Mauler:
Sub-par late-game topdeck.
Poor synergy with Chalice and Trinisphere.

Pro's of Sulfur Elemental
Can't be countered.
Can pull combat tricks.
Good vs slow control (kills Decree of Justice tokens, can't be countered).
Can be good vs White Weenie.

Con's of Sulfur Elemental
Can be bad vs White Weenie (increased damage).
Sub-par early play.
Isn't much of a threat by himself.

[Tacosnape]

Actually, the most common creature killed by Sulfur Elemental is Harmonic Sliver.*

This can actually be pretty significant. Against Slivers, an active Harmonic Sliver can seriously hurt you, as it'll keep you off Chalice, Jitte, and Chrome Mox. Survival decks often pack a Harmonic and a Darkheart, and they also often pack Cabal Therapy. A Sulfur Elemental in play means that Darkheart can't act as Harmonic #2 and that Harmonic #1 can't stick around to be a Cabal Therapy. Or a chump blocker, which can be just enough to win you a game on occasion.

On rare occasions it'll go LOL at a Decree of Justice, but smart players hardcast Decree against DS, and if they get time and mana to get a Decree off, you probably lost.

*This excludes flashing him in front of a Creature during the attack step.

[chokin]

Actually, the most common creature killed by Sulfur Elemental is Harmonic Sliver.*

This can actually be pretty significant. Against Slivers, an active Harmonic Sliver can seriously hurt you, as it'll keep you off Chalice, Jitte, and Chrome Mox. Survival decks often pack a Harmonic and a Darkheart, and they also often pack Cabal Therapy. A Sulfur Elemental in play means that Darkheart can't act as Harmonic #2 and that Harmonic #1 can't stick around to be a Cabal Therapy. Or a chump blocker, which can be just enough to win you a game on occasion.

The second most common thing Sulfur Elemental seems to do is jump in front of a Hoofprints of the Stag token. And on rare occasions it'll go LOL at a Decree of Justice, but smart players hardcast Decree against DS, and if they get time and mana to get a Decree off, you probably lost.

*This excludes flashing him in front of a Creature during the attack step.

I didn't know Sulfur Elemental had flying. I'd love to chump Hoofprint tokens with him too.

Also, Fledgling Dragon is kinda bad here...I think that a 2/2 flier for 4 is not that great. Sure a 5/5 Flying Firebreather is kinda hot, but getting Threshold in this deck is not too easy. City of Traitors and Seething Song are going to be the only consistent things to hit the yard, along with countered goods. So if all is going well, we might have 3-4 cards in our graveyard. He's really good if he is resolved and we are losing though (if we have thresh that is...). Otherwise, a morphed dude is going to be easier to cast and as tough, though lacking evasion.