[Deck] Dragon Stompy [Archive] - Page 4

Arsenal

02-28-2008, 11:40 AM

So does Slogger, Akroma, Hellbent Raiders and Dragon, anything wielding Jitte/Sword, and Tormod's Crypt. So does Taurean Mauler on occasion. Most of the top decks in Legacy don't run this guy, so this isn't a huge plus.

There are plenty of UWG Thresh builds that I've seen run him main, but also in the SB (helpful in the mirror). I've also seen many UWB Fish decks run him. While UWB Fish isn't a major force anymore, UWG Thresh is. True, we already have a decent matchup versus Thresh, but I don't mind being able to have a better one.

In my play experience, Sulfur Elemental usually makes WW even more dangerous. The only things he kills out of combat are Decree of Justice tokens, Mangara, and the odd Savannah Lions. Granted, he's pretty sick in multiples vs. WW, but it's a rare occasion to draw two of them, especially if you're only running two like most lists that run him. It's not like WW is some huge deck either. What he does most of the time is make Silver Knight a 3/1 pro-red, first striker, which is even more of a pain to deal with, and make the rest of their creatures swing for more damage. We already damage ourselves plenty without making our opponent's creatures more lethal.

There are plenty of times that -1 against a White creature will matter; WW deck or other. Tacosnape and Phantom helped explain this.

That is about the extent of Sulfur Elemental's advantages. Occasionally, I'll kill a Bob, or a non-Threshed Mongoose, but otherwise I haven't done much worth noting with Elemental. For all the talk of him being a pseudo-removal spell, I've rarely seen it work to any great effect, and it's not like DS has tons of creatures that it can't/needs to deal with. Usually, he trades with a creature of about equal value. I will concede that Elemental will win an odd game where your opponent relies on you not being able to alpha strike him and that is his greatest strength.

Playing combat tricks, messing with opponent's endgame math, etc. are all awesome. Glad we agree.

I disagree. Sulfur Elemental turn one is far from an ideal play. I'd rather play anything in the deck turn one than Elemental, except for Akroma (morphed), SSG, a lone Jitte, or nothing. Taurean Mauler, on the other hand, is a good turn one or two play. People are stupid afraid of Mauler (perhaps unjustly so, but afraid nonetheless). They almost always spend a counter or removal spell on him that they should be saving for a Moon or a superior creature. People rarely waste removal on a Sulfur Elemental. Mauler is poor in the late game, but I don't see why Sulfur is so awesome outside of the odd uninformed attack by the opponent.

I'm not saying that I'd cast Mauler over a Morphed Raiders if I was playing on turn 1. I'm saying that whether I draw Sulfur in my opening hand, or draw him on turn 5, he's equally effective at what he's supposed to do. Yes, we understand that Mauler is good on turn 1/2. But beyond that?

Split Second on Elemental is nice vs MBC and similar decks, but most decks aren't threatened enough by him to counter him anyway.

Pro's of Mauler:
Good early play
People overrate his value and go out of their way to kill him
Can potentially be huge
Randomly good vs Countersliver and Storm decks when they fail to go off.

Con's of Mauler:
Sub-par late-game topdeck.
Poor synergy with Chalice and Trinisphere.

Pro's of Sulfur Elemental
Can't be countered.
Can pull combat tricks.
Good vs slow control (kills Decree of Justice tokens, can't be countered).
Can be good vs White Weenie.

Con's of Sulfur Elemental
Can be bad vs White Weenie (increased damage).
Sub-par early play.
Isn't much of a threat by himself.

I don't agree with your Pro/Cons list entirely, but the bottom line is this, if you must race your opponent and absolutely need a legit threat to resolve and swing/carry Jitte, I'd much rather have Sulfur Elemental in my hand than Taurean Mauler (the only exception being on turn 1/2).

Rinello

02-28-2008, 02:33 PM

how would you play a hand with:

traitors, mountain, song, dragon, moon, simian ( -1 cause mulligan)

scrumdogg

02-28-2008, 02:38 PM

how would you play a hand with:

traitors, mountain, song, dragon, moon, simian ( -1 cause mulligan)

Not enough information - playing or drawing? any idea what you're playing against? If you do, does it have counterspells? Quick pinpoint removal? Is it heavy on non-basics or is it heavy with basics? Game 1, 2 or 3?

Dilettante

02-28-2008, 02:39 PM

how would you play a hand with:

traitors, mountain, song, dragon, moon, simian ( -1 cause mulligan)

Would have to see the first two draws... but against a generic deck... Turn 1 mountain... Turn 2 Traitors into Simian Spirit Guide-Dragon generally, particularly if the draw is a permanent mana source... Then Turn 3, if it was a mana source, Song, Moon, Land, Empty hand, Rar Rar Dragon. Rush Moon if you see them fetching non-basics...

Tacosnape

02-28-2008, 03:07 PM

how would you play a hand with:

traitors, mountain, song, dragon, moon, simian ( -1 cause mulligan)

I probably wouldn't lead Mountain, Go on this hand like I would occasionally do on a seven-card hand.

Unless I knew specifically that doing so wasn't a good play based on my opponent's deck, my opening play would be City of Traitors, pitch SSG, Moon, pass. If your Moon gets Forced, you probably lose, but with this hand? If your opponent had a Force you probably were going to lose anyway. Your chances of stealing a win on a first turn moon here are pretty high, and when you have to mull to 6, you need to take chances at instant wins.

I might go Mountain, Go here if I knew my Moon wouldn't be very effective even if it hit. Also, against certain decks where speed mattered most, I might drop the Dragon turn one off SSG/Song. A lot depends on your information.

Dilettante

02-28-2008, 03:26 PM

Unfortunately, this is a horrible deck to ever goldfish... Goldfishing Dragon Stompy is like selecting a club for golf, blindfolded. The only blind swing I almost always take is if I'm on the go, if I see Chalice for 1 with ancient tomb or mox, I take it. If I can get a read on my opponent, I *might* choose Moon over it as a quick-drop. Sometimes, your opponent just... reacts as humans do after you play an ancient tomb and tap it... expecting a Chalice. That reaction might cause me to throw down the Mox/SSG and go for a Moon of some form instead if I have both. After I see my opponent's first play, I then kick up the spurs... I only Operation: Dumbo Drop if I know what my opponent is playing or I have no other real plays...

deviant

02-28-2008, 04:12 PM

My play G1-go would have also been city, ssg -> moon and hope to some day draw a land or something. I was a little worried though if I play too risky but seeing that Taco would have made the same play makes me feel a little happy.
The bad thing is that if your opp. scoops before his first turn it's really difficult to sb correctly :rolleyes:

Out of curiosity, how would you play this godly hand g1,go:
mountain, tomb, chalice, magus, song, slogger, ssg ?

I think I'd just play safe and go with the most of it:
1) tomb -> chalice
2) mountain -> magus
3) rfg ssg, song -> arse-slogger (that's how finnish usually pronounce it, not intentionally though)

But I am tempted to go first turn slogger, second turn magus.
Or you could just mulligan it and hope to get to play some actual magic :tongue:

Tacosnape

02-28-2008, 11:22 PM

Out of curiosity, how would you play this godly hand g1,go:
mountain, tomb, chalice, magus, song, slogger, ssg?

Assuming you know absolutely nothing about the deck your opponent is playing?

I'd be very tempted to just say the hell with the Arc-Slogger and go Tomb, SSG, Song, Chal-1, Magus. There are very very few decks in existence that can deal with a Moon effect and a Chal-1 being down before they get an opening turn, and almost none of them can do it consistently. If the Slogger were, say, a Gathan Raiders (Or any other 3-drop sans maybe Akroma), you automatically take this route.

The safer (and probably wiser) play is to just go Tomb, Chalice-1, setting yourself up for either a turn two Song/Slogger with protection from STP, or a Magus of the Moon if you need it more.* Plus, Tomb/Chal-1 doesn't tell your opponent for certain what you're playing. Tomb, Chalice-1, go is never bad against an unknown opponent.

Also, If the Magus were a regular Blood Moon, you definitely take the second option, because the first play is only decent with a threat involved.

If you know what deck you're up against, you decide what you need on the board when. There are definitely cases where the turn one Moon is correct, and same for the turn one Slogger. There are also cases against control decks (Or certain other decks) where the correct play might be Mountain, Go aiming to set up a Chalice for 2 the next turn.

*I'll always play the Magus before the Song/Slogger here if my opponent's first land drop is a nonbasic (excluding a fetchland) or sometimes, a Swamp. The reason you don't lead the Slogger into the swamp is to avoid the 600 black creature removal spells that cost :1::b:, especially Edict effects which the Magus can guard against. However, by holding the Slogger back here you risk Hymn to Tourach. So take your pick.

mercenarybdu

03-01-2008, 02:29 AM

overseer1234

03-01-2008, 06:32 PM

technogeek5000

03-01-2008, 09:28 PM

Im not to familiar with the deck, but if i was to make a quick suggestion...

From what i hear taurean mauler is some kinda good, especially in a deck that can reliably play it turn 1 or 2. I know its counter intuitive to the decks gameplan but does it realy matter. If your opponents not playing speels anyway so if they do manage to play spells, why not penalize them for it. You can probably take out the sulfurs for them and it will improve your list enough.

Yah dragon stompy is probably the strongest choice for a random meta: difficult to hate out, consistent, and screws most decks with its bullets.

Rinello

03-01-2008, 09:33 PM

I'm taking this deck to a tournament tomorrow so here's the list I'm going to play:

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Chrome Mox
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
2x Umezawa’s Jitte
2x Akroma, Angel of Fury
4x Arc-Slogger Creature
4x Gathan Raiders Creature
4x Magus of the Moon
4x Rakdos Pit Dragon
4x Simian Spirit Guide
2x Sulfur Elemental
3x Blood Moon
4x Seething Song
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
10x Snow-Covered Mountain (No particular reason, except that they all have the exact same art...)

Sideboard
4x Pithing Needle
3x Tormod’s Crypt
3x Trinisphere
1x Blood Moon
4x Pyrokinesis

I hope I'll preform well, but the meta is very random, so I'm still open for suggestions...

this is a list very close to the one that I currently use.
I can only agree about SB (MAYBE -1 Needle +1 Crypt)
and tell you that I personally dislike Arcslogger 4x but I don't think it is a huge difference.
Why 1 MD SoL&S ? Only because you're afraid of multiple Jitte or because you really want protection from StP ?

Please write a report and GOOD LUCK!

J.V.

03-01-2008, 11:04 PM

You can probably take out the sulfurs for them and it will improve your list enough.

Or you can not cut Sulfer Elemental who as testing clearly shows is better than Taurean Mauler, not add Taurean Mauler, and not make your deck worse.:wink:

overseer1234

03-02-2008, 04:00 AM

Thank's for the advice, I'll try to take some notes and write a rapport (never done that before) but the only changes I'll make are going to be the sideboard -1needle and +1 crypt

About the mauler thing, well I just don't have maulers so sulfur's gotta do..

And about the 4 slogger's: just as taco said, the longer I play with the deck the more threats I want in it...

Tacosnape

03-02-2008, 04:38 AM

Cutting a Needle from your sideboard is not the right decision ever. I can't stress this enough. I have never ever been dissatisfied with quad Needles in sideboard. I've had a lot of matches where I wished I could run 8. I'd probably run 5 or 6 in board if it were legal. When making a sideboard, you start with 4 Pithing Needle, then you add the other 11 cards.

As for Sulfur Elemental versus Taurean Mauler (versus Red Akroma), I don't agree with either of you. Neither one has clearly established itself as outclassing the other.

I think you can argue this point for aeons and not have a clear answer. There are times when Mauler is superior, and times when Sulfur Elemental is just a mad tricksy bitch and crushes face. And there are times when Akroma's power level is just off the charts, and she can be similarly tricksy with the Gathan Raiders con.

I will say that I spent a week playing all three of them in 23 and 24 threat shells (With standard mana, 4 Moon, 4 Chalice, 0 Trini, and 2-3 Jittes accordingly), and while I'm still not sure who the powerhouse is, I'm ever so slightly leaning towards saying Sulfur Elemental >> Red Akroma >> Taurean Mauler. However each of these guys has their moments, and you're probably not making a wrong decision by running whatever arrangement of them you're most comfortable with.

deviant

03-02-2008, 07:15 AM

The only thing I have to say about this deck is that if you don't know for sure that moons aren't going to be huge, md 8. It's still eating the format.
Damn. I played my DS between vintage rounds against other legacy decks and the games usually went like this: I win the die roll (I'm reeally good at that) play something in the line of city/tomb + mox/ssg -> moon effect.
Opponent: Fuck you, scoop.
That opening wins me the game every time they don't have FoW. If they have, then we might actually get to play a little.
So my advice is to play the moons if you don't suspect they aren't good for some reason. (The bad thing is that you don't know their deck but you can take an educated guess that they don't play a lot of basics.)

aristotles_pupil

03-02-2008, 07:42 AM

I fully agree with Deviant on the Moons.
The 8 moon effects is what got me hooked on the deck in the first place.

Back when Ravnica was legal in T2, I played a Magnivore deck that used LD, Moons and later Magus of the Moon to completely eat my local FNM meta.
I mean people were playing what, 1/2 basics LOL. When a Moon stuck the opponent entered scoop fase. After a couple of FNM's people started to play mono white weeny with mainboard disenchant and other hate and Sacred Ground in the board just to hate me :laugh: .

Mike

deviant

03-02-2008, 08:32 AM

First game I obviously don't know that the opp. is playing mono-red. (chances for this in my meta would be close to zero. I have, however, faced the mirror match :laugh: ) so I would go for asap-moon if possible. If not, 1st turn chalice-1 is a good start also. Or if you play them - trinisphere.

Second and third game - just figure out what will hurt them. Pyrokinesis is awesome, chalice&trini are good. This deck is no one-trick pony. Also; Arc-Slogger is godsent against decks that want to play a lot of small critters. And so is jitte.
And the differences in sideboarding are very dependant upon your sb. There are a lot of meta-dependat slots. I for one, play REBs because everyone and their mother plays blue in my meta. The md leaves very little room to be creative but the sb isn't carved to stone. Although I agree with Taco about those Needles - play four.
(And by the way: if Tacos opinion deviates from the rests - He's probably right, listen to him.)

As for piloting this deck - it's probably the most aggressive one in the format. We have practically no late game whatsoever. The exception is if you run akromas and are against some landstill variant with no pressure upon you (read: UW) you can "topdeck" into 8 mana and hardcast akroma ftw. Doesn't sound very good now does it? So if locks don't come or they do nothing just try to steal the win with f.e. a flying a dragon to the dome and cast seething song or something for 16+ dmg.

Just remember that even though we have a lot of locks in here, we are no lock-deck. We play them just to slow the opponent down enough to beat face in time.

Dilettante

03-02-2008, 09:55 AM

I would like to ask You for some advice:

Friend of mine played DS on a medium-sized tournament (25 ppl). Either he somehow misjudged the field, or he had terrible hoodoo, but for some reason he met three red decks in five rounds. Here are my questions regarding DS vs. red deck match-up:

How do You pilot the deck in first game? (Rough description...)
How do You pilot it post-board?
Do You side out Magus even though it will lessen your threat count?
Do You side out Magus even though Ancient Crypts will hurt You?
What is the difference between antiSligh/Burn/Goblins sideboarding?

Thx!

Seems like an awfully high ratio of red decks... If there really *are* too many, I simply would choose a different deck. It depends on your build... If you're trinisphereless, your equipment is key... Prioritize sulfur elemental and arc-slogger. Burn is rougher if you're trinisphereless. Against those 3 decks, if no turn 1 Lackey, chalice at 1, Burn, chalice at 1, then 2... Sligh... depends, but generally at 1, then 2. For boarding, remove blood moons. If the matchup is burn or sligh, I would remove magus of the moon... Lower threat density, but you have more cards to affect (not control) the board, not to mention removing a card that simply deals damage to you on top of getting removed by a 1cc card. Goblins, they stay in... Remember that it still locks down wasteland/rishadan port. Blood Moons usually go out... Depends on how much wasting/Rishadan they have. Akromas, if you have them, go out. Pyrokinesis/Cave-in/Pyroclasm/Rolling Earthquake/Trinispheres go in. Maximize trinispheres against burn and sligh... less of a priority against Goblins, perhaps 2-3 against them. If goblins, pithing needle goes in for Vial/Goblin Tinkerer/SGC. Just remember not to rely on your disrupting artifacts too much... Shattering Sprees suck. Be very wary of shattering spree into fireblast for burn/sligh. You can't do too much about it... just factor that possibility into your decision-making.

savemysoul

03-02-2008, 10:47 AM

If you have a lot of sligh and burn just run 4x md 3sphere

NecroYawgmoth

03-02-2008, 10:57 AM

Dilettante

03-02-2008, 11:06 AM

OK, I often discuss about this...

Which Card is generally better in the Sideboard?

Pyrokinesis or Pyroclasm...

Both of them have Advantages and Disadvantages, but Clasm seems better imo, because it doesn't interfer with Jitte. And it looks better against other Aggro...

any Suggestions??

The biggest issue with Pyrokinesis is its lack of synergy with Trinisphere... However, you put that into consideration that when you have to cast a pyrokinesis, generally, you have not gotten the trinisphere up yet, so the point is mostly moot. It depends on the type of aggro. You can cope with an opposing pit-dragon, sea drake, or serendib efreet with the Pyrokinesis and most other decks with the Pyroclasm. Look at your metagame... No one is "better".

J.V.

03-02-2008, 02:05 PM

I think the best answer is whats in your meta? Like you said both have their advantages, if you expect a lot of say Gobs? Then run Clasm, if you think you'll see more midrange decks then Kenesis is probably the better call. If you really don't know what your going to see then either go with your gut or run some kind of split.

Tacosnape

03-02-2008, 02:23 PM

I don't really see what the big deal with red decks is. I don't know of a red deck where DS is any worse than even, and that would be the DS mirror match.

How do You pilot the deck in first game? (Rough description...)
How do You pilot it post-board?
Do You side out Magus even though it will lessen your threat count?
Do You side out Magus even though Ancient Crypts will hurt You?
What is the difference between antiSligh/Burn/Goblins sideboarding?

1. Chalice of the Void for 1 and Umezawa's Jitte are how you beat Red decks pre-board. Obviously, put low priority on Moons once you see the opponent has red in their deck. Against any red deck, higher toughness creatures are your priorities to get out. Burn is tough if you don't run over 20 threats, because if you overcommit to a threat without a Chalice, they will often (correctly) decide that getting rid of your threat is the best option. Then you get to try and draw a threat while they melt your face.

2. Same way as before, only this time your Blood Moons say "Pyrokinesis" on them. Or Trinisphere, if you run them sideboard and your opponent is Burn. If you don't run Trinisphere, board in the Pyrokinesis anyway. You can always Pyrokinesis your own shit to get Hellbent faster in a distant pinch, and some burn decks run Fanatic/Spark/Ball Lightning. If you won the first game and the red deck is Goblins, boarding out Chalice for Pithing Needle is a good idea, as Needle is better against Goblins on the draw.

3. I generally side out one Magus for one Jitte, since I currently run 24 threats and keep Jitte #3 in my sideboard. Beyond that, all you should be doing is sending in Pyrokinesis for Blood Moon, except for possibly Trinisphere in for Magus against Goyf Sligh.

4. I assume Ancient Crypt means Ancient Tomb, and the answer is still usually no. Chalice for 1 and Jitte will usually fix things anyway.

5. Again. All red matchups get Pyrokinesis for Blood Moon. Needle comes in for Chalice against Goblins when you're on the draw. If you run Trinisphere in board, it comes in against burn, but not Goblins. As for Goyf Sligh, this is your call. I wouldn't board in the Trinispheres, but you could get decent results from doing so when you're on the play, and they would likely take Magus of the Moon's slot.

Pyrokinesis or Pyroclasm...

Pyrokinesis, unless you expect a ton of Empty the Warrens. Pyrokinesis is just flat out better than Pyroclasm in the modern metagame.

overseer1234

03-02-2008, 02:38 PM

I took this deck to a tournament to day so here's the report (this is my first report, so I don't know if it's good enough...)
Maastricht 1 March 2008
Participants: +/-30
Deck: Dragon Stompy

Decklist:
Main Deck:
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Chrome Mox
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
2x Umezawa’s Jitte
2x Akroma, Angel of Fury
4x Arc-Slogger Creature
4x Gathan Raiders Creature
4x Magus of the Moon
4x Rakdos Pit Dragon
4x Simian Spirit Guide
2x Sulfur Elemental
3x Blood Moon
4x Seething Song
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
10x Snow-Covered Mountain

Sideboard:
3x Pithing Needle
4x Tormod’s Crypt
3x Trinisphere
1x Blood Moon
4x Pyrokinesis

Match 1: Strange combo with helm of awakening and egg’s…
G1: I start with T1 blood moon, and some threats, he tries to go off but fizzles and my dragon takes it home.
G2: I have an insane draw here with T1 chalice on 1, T2 trinisphere, T3 Chalice for 2, T4 magus of the moon, and turn 5 dragon GG, he didn’t have a chance…
Record: Matches: 1-0-0 Games: 2-0

Match 2: Affinity
G1: T1 chalice for 1, T2 slogger Good game…
G2: My deck kills me as I draw no threat’s and to much mana, so he kills me with arcbound stinger and frogmite…
G3: T1 trini, and hè doesn’t find a 3rd land, so my raiders take it home for me.
Record: Matches: 2-0-0 Games: 4-1

Match 3: B/w Deadguy ale
G1: T1 Moon, T2 chalice for 1 and he show’s me his hand witrh only white cards, no white sources…
G2: I take a mulligan to 5 and go for the T1 slogger since I don’t want to mull to 4, he finds edict, and my hand gets clogs up because of no mana…
G3: T1 chalice, T2 raiders, T3 moon, I keep drawing more threat’s than he draw’s answer’s and I eventually win....
Record: Matches: 3-0-0 Games: 6-2

Match 4: Goyf sligh
We Took an Id but still played a casual game
G1: Chalice for 1, magus of the moon, and a pit dragon kill him…
G2: I draw chalice, trini, magus, but he somehow just burns me down with the help^of rift bolt, incinerate, price of progres, I don't draw enough threat's and than he has 6 mana to throw 2 fireblast’s to my face so I die because of his burn and ancient tomb damage…
3: chalice for 1 and 2 + trini and hellbend raiders is something he just can’t stop…
Record: Matches: 3-0-1 Games: 8-3

Match 5: Bomberman/Salvager combo
G1: he counters my disruption, answer’s my threat’s and wins with his combo…
G2: same as game 1, but then worse because he has chill…
Record: Matches: 3-1-1 Games: 8-5 and my first top 8

Top 8: Deadguy Rock
G1: keep a good hand on the draw, but he goes thoughtseize on my blood moon, and play’s around my chalice sow doran an goyf smash my face.
G2: Mulligan T6: T1 magus of the moon on the play and GG
G3: Mull to five, still no moon, T1 chalice for 1, T2 chalice for 2, he vindicate’s my chalice, I drom slogger, he drop’s an 5/6 goyf, I throw 30 cards of my library at it, he plays another goyf and I die.
Record: Matches 4-2-1 Games: 8-7

I really love playing this deck, even though I lost a match that I should have won, because of the deck being it's inconsistent self again...

All in all it was a verry fun tournament :)

savemysoul

03-02-2008, 06:30 PM

I was testing against a teammate playing U/G/r with DS and i was blown away.
the only game I won was with a first turn 3sphere, other than that he totaly blew dragon away. He plays basics (6 duals, fetchs, no moon effect) but blood moon did nothing. 1 game i managed to hold back his green mana until fire/ice hit my MotM. U/G/r really is giving me the most problems. How do you deal with thresh first game ? CotV is great but that`s only 4 cards, without 3sphere main first game is really hard

Nihil Credo

03-02-2008, 10:03 PM

mercenarybdu

03-02-2008, 10:31 PM

Against UGR, the MVP are Gathan Raiders and equipment, with Arc-Slogger a close second. Moons are only effective if it's turn 1 on the play and if it's Blood Moon (Magus gets burned); otherwise, you should focus on resolving a big dude that can't be Bolted and that will tear through Tarmogoyfs.

That is why playing a mammoth early on in the game gives the user an edge in doing large amounts of damage.

Magus later on to damper the field so that way they waste burns to the face rather than find an easy way out to get rid of it.

Phantom

03-02-2008, 11:48 PM

mercenarybdu

03-03-2008, 01:34 AM

All Nihil's points are legit, but I'd have to say that I've always found Chalice to be the MVP vs. Red Thresh. Burn can really hurt this deck as everything we run save Slogger can be easily killed by a bolt (if they are smart they can usually catch Raiders when you don't have Hellbent since burn is instant speed). Jitte is a house if you get it going, but it is so threat dependent that that isn't always possible.

That is why in my plan I removed the raiders to make space for Tarox. Since lots of basic burners like using things that deal 3 for one mana, it is rare that Fireblast is used outside of Red Sligh unless they find a way to recoup fast.

R Threshold by far uses Bolt and Pyroclasm to kill stuff, but if somebody has found a way to fit in Fireblast and make it effective I will be very impressed.

Phantom

03-03-2008, 01:44 AM

That is why in my plan I removed the raiders to make space for Tarox. Since lots of basic burners like using things that deal 3 for one mana, it is rare that Fireblast is used outside of Red Sligh unless they find a way to recoup fast.

R Threshold by far uses Bolt and Pyroclasm to kill stuff, but if somebody has found a way to fit in Fireblast and make it effective I will be very impressed.

I don't see this logic here. You're replacing the BEST (or at least second best) creature in the deck in order to make room for a much harder to cast creature that might barely do more damage, doesn't help us get hellbent, and STILL dies to a bolt unless you happen to be holding another Tarox (which happens in like 15% of games.

I'm begging you not to do this.

Tacosnape

03-03-2008, 02:02 AM

That is why in my plan I removed the raiders to make space for Tarox. Since lots of basic burners like using things that deal 3 for one mana, it is rare that Fireblast is used outside of Red Sligh unless they find a way to recoup fast.

R Threshold by far uses Bolt and Pyroclasm to kill stuff, but if somebody has found a way to fit in Fireblast and make it effective I will be very impressed.

Uh.

Okay, point 1, Tarox dies to Lightning Bolt far far far more often than Gathan Raiders ever will.

Point 2, we maindeck four Chalice of the Void. Lightning Bolt is not the world's largest issue.

Point 3, Gathan Raiders is the best red creature in Legacy. He's also the best colorless creature in Legacy. If colorless were a color, he'd share a title with Tarmogoyf, who's the best blue and green creature in Legacy. If you're going to run jank like Tarox, he is not the correct cut. At all. Gathan Raiders singlehandedly kicked Razormane Masticore to the curb. He should do the same with Tarox.

deviant

03-03-2008, 04:02 AM

If Gathan Raiders didn't exist and we, DS players, were given a chance to MAKE A CREATURE which WotC would then print; IT WOULD BE GATHAN RAIDERS WITH MOUNTAINWALK! He's just designed for this deck.

Tacosnape

03-03-2008, 05:50 AM

If Gathan Raiders didn't exist and we, DS players, were given a chance to MAKE A CREATURE which WotC would then print; IT WOULD BE GATHAN RAIDERS WITH MOUNTAINWALK! He's just designed for this deck.

Holy God. This just gave me an insane idea to try Mountain Yeti in this deck. Unblockability and protection from Swords to Plowshares sounds pretty tasty.

I think I'll sleep first and then see if it still sounds good though.

deviant

03-03-2008, 07:04 AM

I have looked through gatherer for every available mountainwalker a long time ago, but didn't find anything I thought would be better that akroma/sulfur.
Mountain Yeti has terrible cc, I thought it would be a little too prohibitive. Maybe not, but I seriously doubt it's better than rakdos and I don't think we want more 4cc's. (The double red wouldn't be that terrible this time since the card is already so moon-dependant.)

Other mountainwalker I considered, but benched, were:
Colos Yearling (2R 1/1 mountainwalk - firebreathing)
Vug Lizard (1RR 3/4 mountainwalk - echo)

Now that I think of it, Colos Yearling actually is a little tempting (and fragile), but I think I'll leave judgement of these to Taco and others since I've already benched these once so I don't really trust my judgement on this. Mountain Yeti is probably the best of these since it has prot stop. They really should print better mountainwalkers, there's no good equipment that gives mountainwalk either :(

EDIT: Vug doesn't die to lightning bolt, and costs one less than mountain yeti. It's one or the other, but Vug comes online a turn faster, and the echo isn't that bad in theory since you don't probably topdeck a mana source to play that rakdos immediatly anyway, and if you do - just play it the next turn. Testing really should happen here since we're swimming deep in the sea of danger-of-cool-things.

luka66_6

03-03-2008, 08:33 AM

How about Hell-Bent Raider:

Creature - Human Barbarian 2/2, 1RR (3)
First Strike, Haste.
Discard a card at random: Hell-Bent Raider gains protection from white until end of turn.

It could help to get helbend. I think is better than yeti.

idraleo

03-03-2008, 08:54 AM

At this point Masticore is even better

Sanguine Voyeur

03-03-2008, 09:36 AM

How about Hell-Bent Raider:

Creature - Human Barbarian 2/2, 1RR (3)
First Strike, Haste.
Discard a card at random: Hell-Bent Raider gains protection from white until end of turn.There's your problem. It's harder to cast then Sulpher Elemental, without being better then Sulpher Elemental.

deviant

03-03-2008, 10:08 AM

Hell-bent raiders: considered and neglected.(Even though the name is very, very appealing) CC sucks, hits for only 2. I don't know how relevant that prot.thing might be but let me know if my first impression is off the wall.
Since we're now bouncing oddballs how about stingscourger? I't won't make md because it's too situational and does practically nothing if all goes well but in some mono-color aggro-matchup it could perform. I don't know.
Keldon Marauders was also slightly interesting, but sulrfurrsrs just plain better.
I've been looking and looking but I think we already play the best ones. I might actually take that mountain yeti in a legacy tournament in a few weeks or so just because we have so much UW-landstill here so that prot. swords is more useful than usual.

Rinello

03-03-2008, 01:29 PM

At this point Masticore is even better

check this topic please, Masticore (ANY masticore) sucks like Mudhole in this deck.

SRLSY:

MASTICORE ONLINE = NO HELLBENT and vice versa.

Now tell me how is it any good.
I swear, if an "eh guyz pliz let's use a masticore111!!! It is da bomb!" will be posted again, I'll shout IRL and put a link in this 3d with a .mp3 file.

TeenieBopper

03-03-2008, 01:37 PM

He's saying Masticore is better than Hell-Bent Raiders.

Context=awesome.

Afro

03-03-2008, 01:37 PM

Holy God. This just gave me an insane idea to try Mountain Yeti in this deck. Unblockability and protection from Swords to Plowshares sounds pretty tasty.

I think I'll sleep first and then see if it still sounds good though.

Thank you for opening the floodgates of shitty red creature discussion. If a creature doesn't cost 3 mana, 2 of which is colorless, it better be a game breaker (read Slogger or Pit-Dragon).

Tarox is shit. The bounce goblin is shit. Mountain Yeti is shit. That mountain cycling cougar is shit. Lets move to more important discussion please.

Tacosnape

03-03-2008, 02:59 PM

Thank you for opening the floodgates of shitty red creature discussion.

Technically Phantom did that. He's the one that started the thread.:cool: I'm just adding fuel to the fire.

Rinello

03-03-2008, 04:37 PM

Thank you for opening the floodgates of shitty red creature discussion. If a creature doesn't cost 3 mana, 2 of which is colorless, it better be a game breaker (read Slogger or Pit-Dragon).

Tarox is shit. The bounce goblin is shit. Mountain Yeti is shit. That mountain cycling cougar is shit. Lets move to more important discussion please.

Thank you!

Starting with?
Sideboard discussion and SB with any MU ?
How we deal with "anything on board" ?

savemysoul

03-04-2008, 06:20 PM

Dilettante

03-04-2008, 10:33 PM

Here`s a quick brainstorm

all this talk about Masticore, has anybody ever thought that if you have Masticore out you don`t need hellbent ? :P

nah just kidding wanted to ask if anybody tested against R/b vial goblins ?
Warren Weirding owns first turn slogger :( any thoughts on what to side other than Pyrokinesis in, moons out

Have to watch your matchup... Remember that Blood Moons still help. What weirding if they have a stack of badlands? Not to mention stripping away their mana denial so that all they can do is affect your board. Keep the Magus of the Moons, at the very least... and keep Trinisphere out. Pyrokinesis... and maybe Pithing Needle.

Osse

03-05-2008, 12:23 AM

Have to watch your matchup... Remember that Blood Moons still help. What weirding if they have a stack of badlands? Not to mention stripping away their mana denial so that all they can do is affect your board. Keep the Magus of the Moons, at the very least... and keep Trinisphere out. Pyrokinesis... and maybe Pithing Needle.

I think this is the reason alot of Goblin players are now playing a basic swamp maindeck. I'm not saying you're wrong, but its not something you can rely on. Also, post board they will side in Grips, and Incinerator will still be good, so moons aren't necessarily 'safe' disruption. I think the matchup is really dependant on the first 10-14 cards because the first person to jump through tempo usually keeps it, unless one of them goes something nuts like double Slogger/SGC

Dilettante

03-05-2008, 12:44 AM

I think this is the reason alot of Goblin players are now playing a basic swamp maindeck. I'm not saying you're wrong, but its not something you can rely on. Also, post board they will side in Grips, and Incinerator will still be good, so moons aren't necessarily 'safe' disruption. I think the matchup is really dependant on the first 10-14 cards because the first person to jump through tempo usually keeps it, unless one of them goes something nuts like double Slogger/SGC

It's never "safe", never said it was... but you do wish to bushwhack them before they do get out that first swamp... and the bigger key is keeping down their wasteland and rishadan port. You being able to maintain 3-5 mana is more important than your ability to spike to 5 in this matchup where you just bash at their walls of chump blocks. Against R/B, though... Grips? Just always be aware of that hasted Tinkerer... I would think a Goblins player would rather let the Blood Moon sit in most cases rather than lose tempo unless you decided to throw everything behind an Arc-Slogger.

mercenarybdu

03-05-2008, 12:59 AM

I think this is the reason alot of Goblin players are now playing a basic swamp maindeck. I'm not saying you're wrong, but its not something you can rely on. Also, post board they will side in Grips, and Incinerator will still be good, so moons aren't necessarily 'safe' disruption. I think the matchup is really dependant on the first 10-14 cards because the first person to jump through tempo usually keeps it, unless one of them goes something nuts like double Slogger/SGC

I see that too as most of those kinds of players run a lot of fetchlands that will fetch red while the bloodstain mire fetches black as well as red the more the reason to toss in a few basic swamps as well as Badlands for the splash.

Soon I could see them throw in Green for the Korsan Grip Removal and if luck comes along an enemy Fetchland a will be circulated to give the decks more variation in fetching other kinds of basic lands as well as Duals.

savemysoul

03-05-2008, 09:14 AM

yea there are builds of R/b/g, but if you are playing against R/b and you toss a moon down first turn, they can`t fetch for black, so only one swamp really isn`t a problem.

mercenarybdu

03-05-2008, 10:28 PM

yea there are builds of R/b/g, but if you are playing against R/b and you toss a moon down first turn, they can`t fetch for black, so only one swamp really isn`t a problem.

So Blood Moon turn one or Magus of the Moon and you have part of the game in the bag unless they have the basic swamp in hand to laugh at cha otherwise.

I see.

Tacosnape

03-06-2008, 12:07 AM

yea there are builds of R/b/g, but if you are playing against R/b and you toss a moon down first turn, they can`t fetch for black, so only one swamp really isn`t a problem.

Let's be real, though. You aren't going to get the turn one Moon down before they have a land drop more than about 15-20% of the time, and that estimate may be high. You lose 50% based on your opponent going first, and then if you're going first, you have to have a Moon in hand and the acceleration not only to play the Moon on turn one but to make it correct to do so. And even then they could randomly have the basic swamp. Although, by the same token, you'll steal a few from turn two-three Moons because your opponent didn't have a fetchland.

The point is that Swamp or no Swamp, Blood Moon probably isn't worth keeping in against Goblins past game one.

mercenarybdu

03-06-2008, 12:17 AM

Let's be real, though. You aren't going to get the turn one Moon down before they have a land drop more than about 15-20% of the time, and that estimate may be high. You lose 50% based on your opponent going first, and then if you're going first, you have to have a Moon in hand and the acceleration not only to play the Moon on turn one but to make it correct to do so. And even then they could randomly have the basic swamp. Although, by the same token, you'll steal a few from turn two-three Moons because your opponent didn't have a fetchland.

The point is that Swamp or no Swamp, Blood Moon probably isn't worth keeping in against Goblins past game one.

I get it the SB plan against Goblins is to side out all of the blood moons and go for some mass removal to slow down the hordes. But then again the Magus of the Moon provides some blockage in the early game but would be rendered useless in the late game unless they use a lot of nonbasic lands such as the Port, fetchlands or duals for splashing.

chokin

03-06-2008, 02:06 PM

I get it the SB plan against Goblins is to side out all of the blood moons and go for some mass removal to slow down the hordes. But then again the Magus of the Moon provides some blockage in the early game but would be rendered useless in the late game unless they use a lot of nonbasic lands such as the Port, fetchlands or duals for splashing.

But it still will provide them with red mana. Sure you take away the Port's tap-a-land ability, but they can still use it pretty effectively. Magus becomes a chump pretty quickly. I'd side in my max number of mass removal and rip out Moon effects. I think that Trinisphere is really cool here because it negates the Chief discount.

What is the standard removal card in the SB now anyways? Rolling Earthquake is really expensive. Is Earthquake the way to go? Pyroclasm? Starstorm(not quite as good as Rolling Earthquake)?

Arsenal

03-06-2008, 02:15 PM

But it still will provide them with red mana. Sure you take away the Port's tap-a-land ability, but they can still use it pretty effectively. Magus becomes a chump pretty quickly. I'd side in my max number of mass removal and rip out Moon effects. I think that Trinisphere is really cool here because it negates the Chief discount.

What is the standard removal card in the SB now anyways? Rolling Earthquake is really expensive. Is Earthquake the way to go? Pyroclasm? Starstorm(not quite as good as Rolling Earthquake)?

I think most are leaing towards Pyrokinesis. It helps achieve hellbent, it's red, and it can effectively clear boards (4 dmg is alot to dole out... for no mana).

savemysoul

03-06-2008, 03:07 PM

Yea no mana but card disadvantage

Tacosnape

03-06-2008, 03:17 PM

Pyrokinesis is pretty solid. The only way I'd pick something else is if you've got a ton of Empty The Warrens stuff to deal with.

Card disadvantage isn't a bad thing for Pyrokinesis. Anything you're boarding in Pyrokinesis against is one of two things.

1. A combo deck with creatures as part of the combo.
2. A deck that's trying to out-aggro you, or at least throw enough blockers down to survive until it can turn aggro.

In neither situation do you care very much about the card advantage. Pyrokinesis is a 0-mana instant, which automatically makes it a powerhouse in this format. It will teach lessons to most decks that try to out-aggro you like Goblins, Affinity, and Sui Black (Eva Green can still do it with a good hand due to all their stuff generally having toughness 5), and it's just more fuel to add to the fire against things like Cephalid Breakfast and Ichorid. And the mirror match is all about Pyrokinesis.

deviant

03-06-2008, 03:42 PM

Tacosnape

03-06-2008, 04:59 PM

Umm.. The mirror match for me was all about 1st turn sloggers, but yeah - pyrokinesis was the card I missed the most. Even with 1st turn slogger slammed into the table - you can't afford to block even once with him 'cause then he would be in pyro-range. (The other guy had them.)
@ Taco: What do you think: in the mirror, if you're on the draw - side out chalices, blood moons and maguses if you have anything to bring. Mostly Pyrokinesis I guess but anything that can pick up a jitte or actually do something will do just fine.
And on the go: board back in at least chalices and maguses, not blood moon really.
1st turn chalice was a straight game loss for me in the g2 of the mirror: I had a Mox and a Raiders and an Akroma that I just couldn't play. Also, it's (potential) mana denial and tempo if you go first and slam a magus down.
Or am I just stupid?

Winning the mirror goes like this.

Deck Design: Play 22-23 threats at minimum. Play 4 Arc-Sloggers. Don't play Trinisphere. Don't play Akroma, Angel of Fury. I cut her immediately upon discovering how awful she was in the mirror. Sulfur Elemental and Mauler are both pretty good in the mirror. Mauler might be slightly better due to natural Pyrokinesis resistance. (It still usually kills him, but they'll never get a 2 for 1 involving a Mauler with Pyrokinesis, whereas they might with Sulfur Elemental.) Oh, and if you really want to dominate the mirror, run Flametongue Kavu.

Game 1: Win the die roll. If you do, drop your first Chalice for 0 (Unless you're sitting on a hand full of Gathan Raiders, obviously). If you don't win the die roll, you may be better off saving them for Gathan Raiders flipping. Sloggers, as you said, are the biggest difference maker in this game. Equipment is second. SOFI, while bad, is really good in the mirror, and in mirrors where neither player runs them, winning the Jitte war is important.

Not game 1: Let's look at your sideboard cards.

Pyrokinesis: Board all 4 in for your 4 Chalices unless you are on the play and you are 100% sure your opponent is playing Akroma, Angel of Fury. If this is the case, cut 2 Chalice and 2 Blood Moon instead. It's not worth keeping Chalice in just to stop Chrome Mox and Gathan Raiders. Blood Moon, while being bad, is at least fodder for both Mox and Pyrokinesis, which is vital considering that in the mirror you can scarcely afford to lose threats. Generally, Chalice is the most important thing to ditch.

Pithing Needle: Needle is your toughest choice. It always comes in for Blood Moon if you saw Sword of Fire and Ice, or if you're pretty sure your opponent runs more Jittes than you. What makes Needle good in the mirror is that, as neither deck has any draw capacity, it will stop whatever they have that you don't. If they threaten to Slogger all your guys to death, you name Slogger. If they threaten to fly over and kill you with a firebreathing, Hellbent Dragon, you name Dragon. Boarding all four in for Moons might be overkill and cause you problems with Mox and Pyrokinesis, so base the number you bring in on your equipment situation. Obviously, since preemptive Needles are worse than reactive Needles, Needle is stronger on the draw than on the play, where you're more likely to need the Blood Moon in your opening hand for Mox fodder.

Trinisphere: Definitely a nono on the draw. It can be useful on the play, but it usually isn't, as your opponent runs 2-mana lands and SSG's, meaning they'll often get out of the Trinisphere oppression by turn 2 and sometimes by turn one. Avoid it.

Tormod's Crypt: About as useful as a football bat. Leave it in the board.

Powder Keg: If you run Keg, which I don't, it's worth a look. A Keg can take down your opponent's Moxes, and early enough it can set you up to kill equipment or your opponent's threats. Shooting Morph guys with him is risky even if you know your opponent runs Akroma, as Gathan Raiders flip over at a moment's notice.

Ingot Chewer: I don't like Mr. Chompers, but he's decent in the mirror. He eats Moxes, he eats Jittes. That's all you really need to know.

So, shortened, assuming you run a normal Pyrokinesis/Needle/Crypt/Trinisphere sideboard:

-4 Chalice of the Void
+4 Pyrokinesis

+0-4 Pithing Needle based on circumstances
-0-4 Blood Moon based on circumstances

Tacosnape

03-10-2008, 06:26 AM

Apologies for double-posting, but I just had a situation in a game where, the more I look at it, the more fascinating it becomes as if I'd played it any other way than exactly how I played it, I might have lost.

So here's the puzzle to discuss. Who knows? Maybe I'll learn more than you will.

My opening hand is Ancient Tomb, Mountain, Chrome Mox, Gathan Raiders, Simian Spirit Guide, Arc-Slogger, Taurean Mauler.

My opponent keeps a 7-card hand and because MWS hates me, wins the die roll 18-4. He leads Badlands, Goblin Lackey, go.

I untap and draw a Seething Song.

If this is you, what's your opening play exactly and why? Which land do you lead with, which accelerators do you use and which do you hold back, if you play the mox what do you imprint on it, and so forth?

PhanTom_lt

03-10-2008, 06:38 AM

Waikiki

03-10-2008, 06:40 AM

I'd say:

Play tomb + mox (imprint slogger)

Play song and add spirit guide to play a morph and a mauler.

The fact that he's playing Black is too scary to just get warren's weirding into siege gang from his side. So I wouldn't go seething into slogger. Ok you can burn the lackey but it would still be an empty board for you. So either he get's lackey and plays weirding and you end up with 1 fatty or he will keep lackey and can add another goblin in this case you will be running two fatties.

While im thinking about it you could burn the lackey with spiritguide (imprit mauler or the raider. and drop another creature second turn. which would leave him without a lackey. If he doesn't drop the weirding the slogger will probably win you the game on it's own.

Edit: seems like phantom_it beat me his play is a great one aswell!

deviant

03-10-2008, 06:57 AM

I'd go for Slogger.
tomb, mox (imprint raiders? I want to keep the mana in hand so I can at least snipe the lackey if they play&draw weirding and with slogger down they have to play spells so it seems like mauler will get bigger than 5/5.)-> song->slogger pass.
Next turn play the mauler.
So I'd just slam down the slogger in hopes of it holding the fort and then proceed to beat face.
Would I have lost terribly?

EDIT: mauler is a goblin. duh.

NecroYawgmoth

03-10-2008, 07:30 AM

Tomb, Mox---> Imprint Mauler, Seething Song---> Slogger

When opponent trys to Kill the Slogger, kill the Lackey with SSG.

Next Turn: Mountain, MorphRaiders, the rest depends on your draw.

YawG

Sanguine Voyeur

03-10-2008, 07:37 AM

I think the best play would be Tomb, Spirit Guide, Seething Song, Mauler, Raiders. In that case, he can't Weird his Lacky though, nor can he Incinerate or Fanatic away your creatures.

PhanTom_lt

03-10-2008, 08:25 AM

The play is Tomb, Mox, imprinting guide or raiders, play Taurean Mauler. This protects you from Warren Weirding, as Mauler is a Goblin, and also protects from Mogg fanatic, as Mauler will grow up. Next Turn, play song into Slogger. It should be enough to win you the game, unless you're playing against one of those MWS Goblin builds with 4 Goblin Grenades.

My play is based on the Badlands opening. It implies either Rb or Rgb Goblins. Usually those builds run only 1-2 Incinerators and max 1 Tin Street Hooligan and 4 Warren Weirdings. Playing Mauler leaves you vulnerable to Incinerator but I think it's compensated by being resistant to Fanatic and somewhat resistant to Weirding. I probably would imprint the raiders, keeping the SSG in case he blows up your Mox or to keep the option to get 4 mana for Pit-dragon.
Another advantage of Mauler is that your opponent must rethink his game plan, and would probably opt for slower game play, thus winning you tempo. And that's what you need, to resolve fatties to win you the game before he overruns you.

EDIT:
I think the best play would be Tomb, Spirit Guide, Seething Song, Mauler, Raiders. In that case, he can't Weird his Lacky though, nor can he Incinerate or Fanatic away your creatures.

Not enough mana. That means you imprint your Slogger. You're left with 3 mana, and hellbent also. Not a good place to be.

Taco, what was your play? Was it the standard Goblins list? Or the random one?

Sanguine Voyeur

03-10-2008, 09:34 AM

Not enough mana. That means you imprint your Slogger.My mistake, that's what I meant. Tomb, Mox, Song, Mauler, Spirt Guide, Raiders face down. I've lost too many early Sloggers to Wierding to make that commitment. With this plan, it's harder to be screwed over by just one spell.

Arsenal

03-10-2008, 01:30 PM

Phantom

03-10-2008, 01:48 PM

I know Goyf is nuts, but is FTK really not being played because of one card? There are numerous other creatures played right now that have toughness 4 or less. I know that Phantom tested it when DS was first conceived, but what about now? Does he not have a home anymore?

He does not, sadly, in any normal meta. The most played decks in an open meta I would guess to be Thresh, then Landstill, then probably some combination of Storm and yard combo, then Goblins (just a rough estimate). That is not a metagame for FtK. it is too often dead there. It really shined when Goblins was far and away #1, and a Goyfless Thresh was #2.

Arsenal

03-10-2008, 02:31 PM

That, for lack of a better word, sucks. FTK looks to be a perfect fit in Dragon Stompy; 3R allowing for early casting, 4/2 beater that kills potential blockers. FTK still hits Threshed Werebears, unThreshed Enforcers, Sea Drakes, and nabs a 3/4 Goyf ocassionally (I'll admit that last one won't happen very often).

Even hitting a 4/5 Goyf puts pressure on the Thresh player, basically allowing for your horde to swing through unblocked (unless he wants to kill his Goyf).

Bleh, you're right for the most part, but it can't ignored that FTK still hits TONS of commonly played stuff; all Sui Black creatures, 90% of Survivial Creatures, all Goblins, almost all of other Stompy creatures, random aggro that always shows up at decent sized tourneys, etc...

Tacosnape

03-10-2008, 02:48 PM

The play is Tomb, Mox, imprinting guide or raiders, play Taurean Mauler. This protects you from Warren Weirding, as Mauler is a Goblin, and also protects from Mogg fanatic, as Mauler will grow up. Next Turn, play song into Slogger. It should be enough to win you the game, unless you're playing against one of those MWS Goblin builds with 4 Goblin Grenades.

This is exactly what I did. Tomb, Mox imprinting Raiders, Taurean Mauler. This left my hand as Mountain, Guide, Song, Slogger.

Taurean Mauler guarded me from Weirding/Lackey combo shit, but more importantly he was also going to guard my Slogger from Weirding. Which my opponent realized, so he went to attacking my manabase. He wasted my Tomb and dropped a second Lackey.

Despite losing my Tomb, next turn I was able to go Mountain, Guide, Song, Slogger, with the 3/3 Mauler guarding my Slogger from Warren Weirding. He had to fire off Weirding to stop the Mauler after it got decent-sized, but he turned out to have three Weirdings in hand at the end of the game. None of which could touch the Slogger. I like Taurean Mauler.

Arsenal

03-10-2008, 02:56 PM

Tacosnape

03-10-2008, 03:36 PM

But in that scenario, he's played turn 1. Obviously, he's going to be a bomb that early. How's your testing gone once you've gassed your hand (turn 3/4?), you're looking to topdeck the best threats possible, and you topdeck Mauler.

Your point is entirely valid. This is Mauler's absolute biggest weakness.

Mauler absolutely blows against control decks where there actually can be a midgame. In decks that can survive your initial explosion but not necessarily lock you down for a few turns, Sulfur Elemental and Red Akroma are probably both better than Mauler.

Mauler's proving himself good against both Goblins and Threshold, though, which is helping his street cred considerably.

deviant

03-10-2008, 03:42 PM

deviant

03-10-2008, 03:45 PM

Double-posting but we already run cards that are a lot better if you drop them on your t1 than on your t3: Blood Moons, Chalices, some run trinis.
I don't see a trouble in increasing our "turn one mvp-count".

Tacosnape

03-10-2008, 03:54 PM

Taco, how does your list look like atm?
I mean, you run what, 34 threats?
I'm just curious to see what do you use as the "shell", since I'm constantly contradicting myself over a few slots.
Care to share?

Rofl. If I could fit in 34 threats, I totally would. I absolutely hate losing games to control because my initial threat wave gets owned and I can't topdeck anything other than land and equipment.

Here's my list at current. It doesn't change much except what's in the 4 Taurean Mauler slots. I do slight adjustments based on metagame (More Jitte for Burn/Goblins, more Trinisphere if combo looks rampant, etc.)

10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song

4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Arc-Slogger
4 Taurean Mauler

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Blood Moon
2 Umezawa's Jitte

SB:
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Pithing Needle
4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Trinisphere
1 Umezawa's Jitte

As for the -shell-, as far as I'm concerned, the following card setup is absolutely core for the deck:

10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song

4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Arc-Slogger

4 Chalice of the Void
2 Blood Moon
2 Umezawa's Jitte

(6 Open Slots)

SB:
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod's Crypt

(5 Open Slots)

deviant

03-10-2008, 04:36 PM

Ok. Thanks.
Your 4 maulers are in the place of my 1 jitte, 2 akroma and 1 other card, which atm is a 1-of sulfur. (?)
I've been thinking of a jitteless version since I started playing this deck, and the modifications to your list would pretty much be Jittes-> akromas/sulfurs.
I'd prefer Akromas for threat-diversity. FTK's could do well also.
Have you tested a list like this?

Arsenal

03-10-2008, 04:44 PM

In my opinion, an active Jitte wins games. I've even run 4 Jitte just to ensure I get a Jitte out as soon as possible. I've never had a problem having 1-2 threats out (20-24 creatures in the deck can do that) to stick a topdecked Jitte on.

Tacosnape

03-10-2008, 05:13 PM

Running without Jitte is a very very bad idea. I'm not even sure if running less than three is a good idea particularly, but I do it anyway just to steamroll control decks and ensure I have enough threats. Running my list with 23 threats and 3 Jittes instead of 24/2 probably wouldn't make it any worse by any means. I would certainly never advocate any less than three Jitte between maindeck and board.

Jitte covers a lot of things you can't do otherwise, though. It makes your guys larger than Goyfs, it kills off every small guy on the planet, and it gains life, which is highly relevant in tight matchups like Burn or Goyf Sligh, where your Tombs are working against you. Jitte can let you steal these matches if your Chalices don't shut them down. WHat makes Jitte so good is it combines efficient removal with two neat abilities that are rarely ever worth running cards for by themselves: Growing your guys, and gaining life.

Active Jittes win creature-versus-creature wars, What's more, if nothing else, it's important to remember that Jitte hurts you if your opponent runs it, and that Jitte does have the bonus of being Jitte Removal.

Often I'll run the 4th Jitte in my sideboard listed above in place of Crypt #4, depending on the metagame. 4 Pyrokinesis + 4 Jitte + 4 Mauler + 4 Slogger owns any deck running small creatures.

deviant

03-10-2008, 05:15 PM

Removing jittes for merry red men would increase consistency. I would very much appreciate consistency.
Also, jittes don't win games - blood moons and arc-sloggers do. (for me at least.)
This is NOT a suggestion of a direction to take the deck, I'm merely asking if anyone has tested it like this - especially with the maulers. I think they're more at home with more people to hang around with. (The more they pop'em the bigger mauler gets and so on.)
I would have to take my testing in our once-in-three-months-legacy-event so I rather ask you people first :tongue:

EDIT: Reminding everyone - I live in a VERY control-heavy metagame. It's so control-heavy it's not even funny anymore. So jitte's only shine against the "random decks". Anyway, just an idea - apparently a bad one.

Tacosnape

03-10-2008, 05:20 PM

Removing jittes for merry red men would increase consistency. I would very much appreciate consistency.

This is exactly why I only maindeck two. Actually, my metagame's pretty control heavy too. Or was, until half of it started playing Goblins for some reason. Jitte definitely sucks against control.

Also, jittes don't win games - blood moons and arc-sloggers do. (for me at least.)

This isn't quite true. Jittes win games. However, like every nonthreat in your deck, they win a different set of games than the other nonthreats. Blood Moon and Jitte almost never win the same game.

The beauty of Dragon Stompy is that you get to pick and mix your nonthreat powerhouse cards. Against Burn, for instance, you want four Jitte and four Chalice sitting in your deck, but Pithing Needle and Blood Moon are useless. However, if you're facing a BGW Control deck, you may very well want Needle for Deed and Blood Moon to wreck their manabase, whereas Jitte and Chalice aren't as strong here. And against Belcher, you want both Chalice and Needle.

It's important to have Jitte in your deck, even if it sits in your sideboard. I think it's strong enough to maindeck a pair, as seeing Jitte in doubles is never good unless it's a match where you really need it to win. If you hit -one- bad one, however, it's not impossible to toss it to Gathan Raiders.

The reason I maindeck more Blood Moons than Jittes, as such, is that in matches where Blood Moon is weak, it goes on a Chrome Mox. Jitte doesn't.

Arsenal

03-10-2008, 05:21 PM

Tacosnape

03-10-2008, 06:43 PM

Meh, Jitte is useful in every matchup, but it just happens to shine in the aggro matchup. Jitte vs. control is crucial, as an early, active Jitte races your control opponent VERY fast.

Also, a topdecked Jitte is more of a "must-counter" than 50% of your topdecked creatures.

Are you serious? No good control deck player is ever going to counter Umezawa's Jitte. Jitte is the least harmful card in your deck against things like Landstill.

Landstill will beat Dragon Stompy by keeping it off of Blood Moon and then removing your threats, then drawing more removal than you can topdeck threats. It's very good at this, especially if you run less than 24 threats. Jitte is something to either be ignored or just knocked out of the way by Pernicious Deed or whatnot.

Arsenal

03-10-2008, 08:51 PM

It really depends on the boardstate, but if you already have a threat down, and you topdeck a 2/2 beater, I don't think your opponent will counter your 2/2 guy. Now if you topdeck a Jitte, then I think your opponent might give a minute into what they're going to do. If they Deed away everything, it's a moot point, but some of your 2/2 guys don't do much to scare the Landstill player (assuming he does not hold Deed). A 2/2 threat + Jitte is scary.

Tacosnape

03-10-2008, 09:34 PM

but some of your 2/2 guys don't do much to scare the Landstill player (assuming he does not hold Deed). A 2/2 threat + Jitte is scary.

The only guy that isn't scary to Landstill at all is Simian Spirit Guide. Mauler's not that great, either, but at least has the possibility to get bigger if your opponent doesn't already have multiple manlands and semi-control of the board.

The other 16 are scary no matter when they hit. Slogger has reach and can finish off a player even if they have a removal spell for him. Dragon can end the game in a hit. Magus can end the game if they can't float the mana to remove him at instant speed. And Raiders is...well, at least Raiders is pretty big.

Additionally, a 2/2 with a Jitte is not scary for Landstill. Here's how this works.

Dragon Stompy: Equip Jitte on my Simian Spirit Guide, swing.
Landstill: Activate Mishra's Factory, Block, make 3/3.
Dragon Stompy: Uh...remove a counter to kill your Factory.
Landstill: Cool. Good luck drawing another threat.

I'm always willing to trade a Factory for a threat midgame, knowing my topdecks and draw is much more likely to outdo theirs.

Arsenal

03-10-2008, 10:00 PM

Tacosnape

03-10-2008, 10:44 PM

Elemental is not scary. SSG is not scary. Raiders as a 2/2 or 3/3, unless you have hellbent, is not scary. Same with Pit Dragon. The only two truly scary, must counter right then creatures you play is Magus and Arc-Slogger. Everything, I don't really care about as I can Wrath/Deed/Damnation/Disk away.

If you've reached a midgame, Raiders and Dragon will have Hellbent. Dragon Stompy has no draw and the only thing that keeps it from Hellbent is mana problems (In which case Landstill usually wins regardless) and the fact that you start with seven cards in your hand. And besides, Dragon firebreathes regardless.

As a control player, not just Landstill only (some people still play MUC, Stax like me), if you have a Mauler/Elemental/non-hellbent Raiders/non-hellbent Dragon/Magus/other 2/2 guy swinging midgame, I do not want you to topdeck Jitte; I'll Counterspell that.

Then you're usually playing incorrectly. If you'd countered the threat, the Jitte would be useless. If you have a counter, you'd be better off taking the Factory-for-Jitte'dGuy trade, then countering the -next- threat, otherwise you'll be facing two threats instead of one.

Just sayin' that Jitte is more of a must-counter than half of the guys you play, because specifics aside, most of them are 2/2 and 3/3. Not scary. If you are threatening hellbent, then yes, you now run scary guys. However, you and I both know that this isn't always the case.

Jitte is a never counter for Landstill. At least for the kinds that have board sweepers.

It's also worth noting that part of what makes the 2/2 guys less scary is that Landstill has manlands. If Landstill spends its counters on weak cards like Jitte, the counters won't be there for either threats that are larger than manlands or Dragon Stompy's -best- answer to manlands, Blood Moon/Magus of the Moon. Either one of those hitting play makes any 2/2 quite able to go the distance.

Also, if you do not have Crucible/Loam out/active, I'd do that trade as I know that I run 20-24 creatures, and you only run 4-8 removal spells. No need for to over extend into your WoG/Damnation/Deed, I'll just topdeck creatures for Jitte to ride on.

Then, again, you're playing incorrectly. Landstill should always take that trade if there's only one Jitte'd threat on the board, regardless of whether the Loam or Crucible is active or not.

As for removal spells, count again. My Landstill runs 4 Force of Will, 4 Counterspell, 4 Swords to Plowshares, 3 Diabolic Edict, 4 Pernicious Deed, a Crime//Punishment, and 6 manlands to block. In addition, my 4C Landstill has 7 card draw spells and 4 Cantrips. While Landstill will likely have to spend a counter or two stopping Blood Moon, this is largely negated by the fact that Landstill has draw and Dragon Stompy doesn't.

thefreakaccident

03-10-2008, 11:57 PM

The landstill/dragon stompy MU is heavily based off of skill/knowledge.

There is no way of having a specific strategy against D. Stompy, as the deck can play out totally differently in different games... No draw in the deck oes this sometimes.

For example, the deck could have no accelleration G!, then all their excell game 2 to do some broken shaz... They could also draw threats or disruption in their opening turns, which also makes it play out quite differently... (shut down quick, or have very quick clock).

Arsenal

03-11-2008, 10:18 AM

If you've reached a midgame, Raiders and Dragon will have Hellbent. Dragon Stompy has no draw and the only thing that keeps it from Hellbent is mana problems (In which case Landstill usually wins regardless) and the fact that you start with seven cards in your hand. And besides, Dragon firebreathes regardless.

If you have hellbent 100% of the time by turn 5, then you're amazing. In my testing, I've not had this success rate. Also, I was talking about all control; Landstill, MUC, and Stax builds.

Then you're usually playing incorrectly. If you'd countered the threat, the Jitte would be useless. If you have a counter, you'd be better off taking the Factory-for-Jitte'dGuy trade, then countering the -next- threat, otherwise you'll be facing two threats instead of one.

Of course I would rather counter the initial threat, but I don't ALWAYS have a counter when you bust out a crazy DS hand; that has absolutely nothing to do with correct/incorrect lines of play. Also, you're assuming I'll always have a Factory to trade with. Again, if you have 100% success rate at having a Factory out exactly when that scenario occurs, then more power to you.

Jitte is a never counter for Landstill. At least for the kinds that have board sweepers.

It's also worth noting that part of what makes the 2/2 guys less scary is that Landstill has manlands. If Landstill spends its counters on weak cards like Jitte, the counters won't be there for either threats that are larger than manlands or Dragon Stompy's -best- answer to manlands, Blood Moon/Magus of the Moon. Either one of those hitting play makes any 2/2 quite able to go the distance.

Then, again, you're playing incorrectly. Landstill should always take that trade if there's only one Jitte'd threat on the board, regardless of whether the Loam or Crucible is active or not.

Again, you are assuming that Landstill is the only dedicated control in existence, and that you will always have a sweeper ready in hand/play when your DS opponent has a threat in play (likely) and then plays a Jitte. If I'm a control player, playing... oh say MUC, then I don't care about any of your creatures really except hellbent Pit Dragon, hellbent Gathan Raiders, and Arc-Slogger. I DO care about a non-threat (Magus/SSG/face-down critters) carrying a Jitte.

As for removal spells, count again. My Landstill runs 4 Force of Will, 4 Counterspell, 4 Swords to Plowshares, 3 Diabolic Edict, 4 Pernicious Deed, a Crime//Punishment, and 6 manlands to block. In addition, my 4C Landstill has 7 card draw spells and 4 Cantrips. While Landstill will likely have to spend a counter or two stopping Blood Moon, this is largely negated by the fact that Landstill has draw and Dragon Stompy doesn't.

I didn't know you were counting counters and manlands as removal; as the former doesn't do anything about a resolved critter and the latter is only situational removal at best. Your particular Landstill build is obviously removal heavy, but that is not exactly representative of most Landstill builds. Also, non-Landstill control decks run even less removal than removal-light Landstill builds, with MUC only running 4-6 (2-3 Powder Keg + 2-3 Vedalken Shackles).

I don't really understand your rationale. Of course Jitte is a non-counter if you are holding a sweeper, countered the initial threat, run a removal heavy build, assume that Landstill is the only control deck in Legacy, etc... but guess what. That does not always happen. If you have a 100% success rate at having the correct answer at the correct time, then the Magic gods must be smiling down on you. However, if you're ever in a position where DS busted out a good hand before you stabilize, and they play a Jitte w/ a Sulfur Elemental in play, and you happen to be holding a Spell Snare/Counterspell/Force Spike/Rune Snag, why wouldn't you counter the Jitte? I'd choose to counter way more than if that Jitte was a Magus/SSG/Elemental/face-down critter.

Nihil Credo

03-11-2008, 12:07 PM

Without restricting the discussion to a specific control deck, it is impossible to do any detailed (i.e. card-by-card) analysis in the first place.

For example, Blood Moon (or Magus) wins on the spot vs. Landstill, is pretty bad against Stax, and useless against MUC. A naked SSG will just walk into a Factory against Landstill, but is much more likely to go the distance vs. Stax or MUC. Chalice is terrible against Stax, but it's pretty good at shutting down StP vs. Landstill. I could go on...

And incidentally, Landstill may not be the only control deck in Legacy, but worldwide it's still played ten times as much as any other.

deviant

03-17-2008, 09:35 AM

I was wondering - if you are on the go and land a 1st turn moon and have a chalice in hand: do you drop the chalice down also ( at 0 ) or do you wait and see what number does most damage?
I mean, chalice for 0 and moon is just terribly efficient mana-denial, but then again, if you stick a moon 1st turn it usually either wins you the game or doesn't make much difference. So it appears to be win-more on the other hand..

Nihil Credo

03-17-2008, 10:13 AM

The chances of them having a Mox in hand are less than them having a basic land (or just, you know, playing Red). It's just not a good gamble.

NecroYawgmoth

03-17-2008, 11:24 AM

hmm, like Taco said, there is not much Room in the Mainboard, especially when you're playing Trini main, and don't want to play less than 7 Moon Effects...

My Questions...

What is a good Creature-Count? Sometimes you play Disruption, Disruption, Disruption, and only draw 1 or 2 Creatures... that sucks

But... much more important:

What are the Pro/Con-Arguments for:

1. Akroma, Angel of Fury
2. Sulfur Elemental
3. Taurean Mauler

YawG

mujadaddy

03-17-2008, 11:40 AM

What are the Pro/Con-Arguments for:

1. Akroma, Angel of Fury
2. Sulfur Elemental
3. Taurean Mauler

YawGDude... Read the thread.

smoky squirrel

03-17-2008, 12:18 PM

Ah, be nice, the thread is 43 pages long...

I settled for a 22-creature count, and it has served me well. But others have tried for 24 and that would work too, if you are willing to let go of the trinisphere, at least MB. That is your decision, I opted for Trini main.

As for the creatures:
Taurean Mauler: I don't like him, he is counterproductive in this deck (stopping your opponent to play spells), he is a terrible topdeck (topdecking is what this deck does generally). He is FANTASTIC turn one or turn two, but I much rather play Raiders, Moon, ... turn one or two nevertheless.

Sulfur Elemental: Cheap, flash, uncounterable and 3 power. I like to see the other ability as gravy against Mangara and Breakfast decks. It can even come back and bite you in the ass on Serra Avengers and Exalted Angels. But then again, you are far in the game by then, and that should not happen with this deck. He blocks and kills Jotun Grunt too. I would play him only in a blue control meta with some Breakfast decks. He is not for my meta I think.

Akroma: I love her. A bomb against most forms of Landstill (that dont pack CoP:Red or Humility), and just a great creature overall. But I only run two as it is a not so early game card.

My two cents...

Tacosnape

03-17-2008, 01:55 PM

What is a good Creature-Count? Sometimes you play Disruption, Disruption, Disruption, and only draw 1 or 2 Creatures... that sucks

23 is a good creature count. So are 22 and 24. I don't personally recommend anything 21 or less, but builds have achieved success with 20-21. I don't recommend more than 26.

I personally play 24, but for the most part, 23 is probably the right number. If you play too much disruption you're getting more out of the Stax element than the aggro element and might as well be playing White Stax.

But... much more important:

What are the Pro/Con-Arguments for:

1. Akroma, Angel of Fury
2. Sulfur Elemental
3. Taurean Mauler

Shortened:

1. Akroma is huge when flipped, the easiest to get out of your hand of the three, and lets you bluff Gathan Raiders that you don't have. She's fantastic against certain Landstill builds. She's the hardest to get full use out of, and she's the absolute worst in the Mirror.

2. Sulfur Elemental's biggest claim to fame is that he's never awful. Shuts down *.En-Kor, Decree of Justice tokens, and Harmonic Sliver. Makes Exalted Angel killable by Pyrokinesis. Is uncounterable, and can function as subpar removal by flashing in as a blocker for an attacking creature. Can kill Jotun Grunt, but most people by now are realizing Jotun Grunt is awful. Sulfur's biggest drawback is that he's never absolutely incredible, either.

3. Taurean Mauler is by far the best guy to have against RB Goblins and Threshold (Resistant to Weirding, loves Cantrips.) Better than Sulfur or Akroma in the first couple turns, but worse than either one of them late game. Capable of wreaking the most havoc on an opponent for the base three mana it takes to play him. Lacks any cool tricky abilities like the Flash-block or the Raiders-bluff. Has the bizarre drawback of making Plague for Humans weaken 12 threats in your deck, but nobody really boards in Plagues to do this.

In my opinion, Akroma's the worst of the three and Mauler-versus-Sulfur's completely a metagame call at this point. Mauler's better against Goblins, Threshold, and the Mirror. Sulfur's better against Cephalid Breakfast and isn't -bad- against anything.

You could always do a split, but I think Sulfur's the guy you take into a totally blind metagame. For now.

savemysoul

03-17-2008, 06:53 PM

Also, I was talking about all control; Landstill, MUC, and Stax builds.

stax is a prison deck, not control

Kuma

03-17-2008, 08:13 PM

As for the Sulfur Elemental/Taurean Mauler/Akroma question, Tacosnape did a good job explaining the arguement, but here's what decks I've found each to be best against.

Sulfur Elemental:

Cephalid Breakfast
Survival
Death and Taxes/WW
Anything with Decree of Justice
White Stax

Taurean Mauler:

Goblins
Thresh
CounterSliver
Storm Combo (In case they try to go off and fail)
Burn (early)
Goyf Sligh (early)

Akroma:
Landstill
MUC

In general, Sulfur Elemental is a better late game topdeck than Taurean Mauler, because he swings for one point of damage more, assuming they don't play any spells, but it's not much of a difference. This is more than made up for by Taurean Mauler being excellent on turns one and two. Sulfur having flash isn't likely to swing the game late, nor is his having split second.

socialite

03-17-2008, 08:25 PM

Real Men Play Guma.

That aside, personally I would rather have a 3/2 uncountable with flash combat tricks every single minute of every match than a card that is entirely dependent on your opponents game state and having been able to drop said card early on in the game. What are you going to mull for Mauler every match? Mauler just doesn't do it for me, maybe I am missing something feel free to pull my head out of my ass for me.

Tacosnape

03-17-2008, 08:40 PM

What are you going to mull for Mauler every match? Mauler just doesn't do it for me, maybe I am missing something feel free to pull my head out of my ass for me.

Dragon Stompy doesn't mulligan well. Dragon Stompy is a deck that's success is largely based on its opening hands, due to its inability to draw cards outside of a draw step.

Therefore, the point of Mauler (Or any card that's best in the opening hand) is to have solid, powerful cards in every opening hand. This is in theory the same point of Trinisphere, but Trinisphere isn't always good in your opening hand, isn't Chrome Mox fodder, didn't actually kill the opponent, and has no mana denial backing it up. However, the logic still applies.

If you have a Mauler in your opening hand, he's better than if he were a Sulfur Elemental or a Red Akroma. If you don't have Mauler, then chances are higher you've got something else good. A turn one Chalice, turn one Moon/Magus, or what have you.

Obviously there are limits to the strength of this theory, as occasionally you will get more than seven draw steps and the odds will favor cards that are stronger in the late game. But that's the theory behind Mauler. Much like Moons and Chalices, he sometimes sets you in a very good position to win on your first turn.

Suguru

03-18-2008, 09:36 AM

Hello to everyone.

After reading almost each of the 42 pages in the post, I have finally decided to post. I have just built a DS deck and I tested it for the first time last Saturday in a small 8 player tournament.

I have never written reports, so here is my attempt of what I can remember.

My deck list was:
4 Tomb
4 City
10 Mountains
4 SSG
4 Seething Song
3 Mox (I have to get 1 more)
3 Trinisphere
4 Chalice
4 Slogger
4 RPD
4 Raiders
4 Magus
3 Blood Moon
2 SoFI
2 Jitte
1 Sulfur Elemental
SB:
3 StarStorm
2 Pyroclasm
3 Shattering Spree
3 Needle
3 Sulfur Elemental
1 Trinisphere

Round 1: WR Rift
G1: My first game with this deck. I have to mull to 5 because I still don’t know what a good hand is. He keeps a good hand but he finds very few cards to cycle, so after a slow match he kills me with 2 Eternal Dragons. I got to cast some threats (which he burns with Slice and Dice) and some lock with Chalice 1 (against StP) and 2 (against further Rift), but they were useless against the Dragons.
G2: Mull to 6. I discover he cowardly runs CoP Red, but with a quick hand I can kill with unmorphed Raiders equipped with SoFI.
G3: Again, a very slow match. I lock with Chalices but he had got down a CoP. We don’t manage to kil each other and the mach time runs out (fortunately for me, as I couldn’t face the Dragons that might come into play).

Round 2: Goblins
G1: He starts Mountain-Lackey. I start with Tomb-Mox-SSG-Seething-Seething-Slogger-Trinisphere. Nothing more to say.
G2: I lock with Chalice 1 and Trinisphere. He slows my game with Rishadan port, and gets to run bigger goblins, to break my Trinisphere and to win me.
G3: He draws bad. I cast Chalice 1 and get to cast again an early Slogger which does the rest.

Round 3: Mirror
G1: I draw bad (lacking of red sources) and he gets a quick hand with hellbented riders.
G2: He keeps a hand with tomb mox, but I play a 1st turn big threat with a Chalice 0, which runs him out of red mana.
G3: I got an early dragon equipped with SoFI while he keeps a hand with no red mana and he doesn’t get to draw a mountain.

Round 4: Survival
G1: An early Magus and his bad luck (he draws nearly all the nonbasics he has in the deck) give the game to me.
G2: I get a Chalice for 2 and some threats but he gets a Deed (Academy Rector + Cabal Therapy) and the game is his.
G3: I get again a Chalice for 2 and a few later I topdeck a Needle just when he has cast a Deed without the mana to activate it yet. My dragon fles over his Rector.

Semifinal: WR Rift
G1: He plays a Rift and a Humility, but I get an unmorphed Raiders equipped with SoFI which protected against StP with Chalice 1 give the game to me.
G2 and G3 were similar to the first matches: slow games with me trying to cast Chalice 2 to avoid CoP and Rift and Chalice 1 before playing any big threat to avoid StP and him disenchanting my chalices and burning Slicing and Dicing my threats over and over. He finally gets Dragons which kill me on the G2 and 3 Rift which kill me on game 3 (I was very close to win with an Slogger which dealt him 6 damage after decking half of my deck, but he played a “gain 6 life” to which my Chalice 1 and 2 couldn’t counter).

3rd and 4th place: Survival
On both games he got a 1st turn Therapy and an early Survival I couldn’t deal with.

My feelings on the deck were very good. I didn’t play against deck with manabases which could be affected by the Moon, but despite this I got quite good results (I finished 1st on the first round).
I felt Thinisphere was not as deffinitive as Chalice and Moon (in the only game the Moon effects were effective).
I deeply wished for some sort of removal. I didn’t have Powder Keg in the Sb, and I missed them so much to get rid of CoP, Rift, Survival.
I also missed some kind of “Final Blow” when my opponent was close to death.

So here are some thoughts after all I have read:

-What about reconsidering some direct damage? It seems quite a sacrilegy to run a red deck with no direct damage. I will consider testing Demonfire as it has been suggested in this thread before. But… in which slot?? Hasn’t ayone finally tested Pyromancy?

-@ Taco: Why have you removed Powder Keg even from your Sb? I have very few experience with this deck as you see, but in my only experience I missed removal so much I even thought about includding it in the maindeck. Okay, I guess your answer: this is an Aggro deck, but if someone gets to chast an Anti-aggro threat before you can cast the Chalice, you have lost…

-Trinisphere: I think it can be either the best or the worst card depending on your metagame and pairing, so maybe it could be taken out of the maindeck, but I think it is still worth a place on the Sb.

-Jitte vs SoFI: A difficult choice for me. Jitte is from far the best equipment in MTG. But it gets countered if you cast a Chalice for 2 and doesn’t make your creatures inmediatly big. SoFI is a lillte more expensive to cast and makes it more difficult to get hellbent, but who dislikes some card advantage?

- About the number of threats: Maybe on my next game I will try to add up to 23-24 of them (I will consider 2 Sulfur and 2 Akroma).

Arsenal

03-18-2008, 10:06 AM

stax is a prison deck, not control

Semantics. Both archetypes try to live through the early game with permanent-based board control (Landstill = Deed, MUC = Propaganda, Keg, Stax = Ghostly Prison, Tangle Wire, 3Sphere), both gain card advantage (Stax is virtual card advantage through lots of 2-for-1s and 3-for-1s courtesy of Smokestack, while Landstill/MUC play raw draw spells), then both have a scant number of win conditions (MUC usually runs 2 max, Landstill 4-6, and Stax 4-8).

savemysoul

03-18-2008, 01:36 PM

Phantom

03-18-2008, 01:50 PM

Either way, let's definitely talk about it in the Dragon Stompy thread...

Tacosnape

03-18-2008, 01:59 PM

@The Stax discussion: Prison is Control. Just whereas Control answers everything reactively and wins on its own time, Prison answers everything proactively on its own time. And the entire discussion is irrelevant to this thread, anyway.

-What about reconsidering some direct damage? It seems quite a sacrilegy to run a red deck with no direct damage. I will consider testing Demonfire as it has been suggested in this thread before. But… in which slot?? Hasn’t ayone finally tested Pyromancy?

-@ Taco: Why have you removed Powder Keg even from your Sb? I have very few experience with this deck as you see, but in my only experience I missed removal so much I even thought about includding it in the maindeck. Okay, I guess your answer: this is an Aggro deck, but if someone gets to chast an Anti-aggro threat before you can cast the Chalice, you have lost…

-Trinisphere: I think it can be either the best or the worst card depending on your metagame and pairing, so maybe it could be taken out of the maindeck, but I think it is still worth a place on the Sb.

-Jitte vs SoFI: A difficult choice for me. Jitte is from far the best equipment in MTG. But it gets countered if you cast a Chalice for 2 and doesn’t make your creatures inmediatly big. SoFI is a lillte more expensive to cast and makes it more difficult to get hellbent, but who dislikes some card advantage?

- About the number of threats: Maybe on my next game I will try to add up to 23-24 of them (I will consider 2 Sulfur and 2 Akroma).

Congrats on your finish! Good report.

@Direct Damage: You do run Direct Damage. It's called Arc-Slogger. As for maindeck burn-style direct damage (assuming you're excluding things that don't hit players), it isn't worth it. You can't get enough of it to improve your board position effectively, and drawing it early is complete shit. If you have threats on the board, it's not hard to outrace your opponent with Dragon's insane pumping and evasion and Slogger's reach. And if you don't have threats on the board, you need more threats, not burn spells. If you do run them, however, Demonfire's your best bet, mainly because it's easy to get out of your hand in a pinch, and if you get a slow start you can do it for 1 to pick off a fast Lackey/Confidant/whatever.

@Powder Keg: Actually, it just gets rid of very little that I don't have a better answer to (The notable exception being ETW Tokens.) It can't touch an Enchantment, and most of the cards that really hurt me are enchantments. Tarmogoyf can be outraced if not killed outright, and most other low-cost creatures capitulate to Pyrokinesis. Manlands are better dealt with through Blood Moon, and most Artifacts I would want to get rid of can be dealt with faster and cheaper via Pithing Needle.

@Trinisphere: It shines in some matchups. No question. It also makes you die in games where it's subpar due to it not giving you choices as to what to imprint on your Mox. Or by being topdecked on turn 3, where it starts to suck against a lot of decks. However, it's still really solid against Threshold and Storm Combo. My current list is experimenting with another card in its place that improves Threshold/Landstill/MUC matches, but leaves my Storm Combo match sort of iffy. I'll post results/explanations if I decide it's worth it.

@Jitte vs. SOFI: The only valid reason to play SOFI is if you expect to play the mirror a lot, because SOFI wrecks the mirror. Otherwise, it sucks. It's more expensive than Jitte, can't gain you life, and blows on a Rakdos Pit Dragon as it often cuts off your Double Strike damage (SSG can dodge this neatly), whereas Jitte on a Hellbent Pit Dragon is very often an instant kill.

@Threats: I advise skipping Akroma. Sulfur Elemental and Taurean Mauler are better choices.

deviant

03-18-2008, 02:24 PM

Advice on skipping akroma seconded, IF you don't live in a meta where every other player plays UW-landstill, and the rest plays something else that involves counterspells. I'm obviously exaggerating but seriously, prot. W&U and uncounterable - sign me in!
Still though, I think Sulfurs are good enough in these mu's and since they're better all around, I'm going to go with those next Saturday. I'll let you know if they do something impressive.

Arsenal

03-18-2008, 02:26 PM

stax has no instants, stax doesnt play tangle wire (at least the geddon build).
stax has no board control (magus of the tab + armageddon if but than doesnt count) you need to sack stuff to smokestax allso so its not 2 for 1 + usually you only have 1 counter on stax, only if you have no other option.

i dont see any control in the deck whatsoever

Wow.

First, there aren't any spell-type requirements in order for a deck to be considered control or not. Throughout the history of Magic, there have been control decks that have had anywhere from 0 Instants (43land) to 24 Instants (some MUC builds).

Second, there are Stax builds that run Geddon and Wire. Please reference Chris Copolla's most recent Stax article on starcitygames.com for lists he's compiled.

Third, I don't understand how Stax doesn't run board control cards. Ghostly Prison, Smokestack, Tangle Wire, Geddon + Magus, Crucible + Factory are all considered board control. Also, it should be noted that there is such a thing as PRO-ACTIVE disruption (3sphere, CotV) vs. REACTIVE disruption (counters, board sweepers, etc).

Finally, you need to re-examine your apparent "requirements" as to what constitutes a control deck. I claim it's a deck that survives the early-mid games using WHATEVER spell-types does the best job (Instants, Artifacts, Enchantments, Sorceries), gain card advantage (Raw Draw vs. Virtual Card Advantage, it doesn't really matter), then win using whatever you feel like(Morphling, Factories, Pegasus Tokens [pre-Mirrodin Parfait], recurring Barbarian Ring, etc).

EDIT: Back on topic, how often do you hold out and try to flip an Akroma, or just go all in and gas your hand, leaving little hope of flipping an Akroma? 100% dependant on game state or is Akroma just a beast when sh'e flipped?

Tacosnape

03-18-2008, 03:19 PM

EDIT: Back on topic, how often do you hold out and try to flip an Akroma, or just go all in and gas your hand, leaving little hope of flipping an Akroma? 100% dependant on game state or is Akroma just a beast when sh'e flipped?

It's game-state dependent. I don't usually go out of my way (IE, Hold back) to flip an Akroma unless it's guaranteed to win me the game when/if I flip it and I'm going to struggle to win the game otherwise. Generally you don't go out of your way to flip her, but if the opportunity presents itself and it's a good idea, you do it.

Most often if she ends up on the board face-up it's because of one of four things:

1. I Morphed her turn one with either a Song in hand or a Song topdecked, allowing me a turn two flip.
2. I caught her midgame where I had enough mana.
3. I built up and hardcasted her against a deck like MUC or Landstill.
4. Someone in the mirror match ran Boldwyr Heavyweights. This happened once. They dropped it turn one and I quickly showed them Akroma wins races. Theoretically this could also happen if someone casts Patriarch's Bidding or something similarly bizarre.

Arsenal

03-18-2008, 03:43 PM

It's game-state dependent. I don't usually go out of my way (IE, Hold back) to flip an Akroma unless it's guaranteed to win me the game when/if I flip it and I'm going to struggle to win the game otherwise. Generally you don't go out of your way to flip her, but if the opportunity presents itself and it's a good idea, you do it.

Most often if she ends up on the board face-up it's because of one of four things:

1. I Morphed her turn one with either a Song in hand or a Song topdecked, allowing me a turn two flip.
2. I caught her midgame where I had enough mana.
3. I built up and hardcasted her against a deck like MUC or Landstill.
4. Someone in the mirror match ran Boldwyr Heavyweights. This happened once. They dropped it turn one and I quickly showed them Akroma wins races. Theoretically this could also happen if someone casts Patriarch's Bidding or something similarly bizarre.

I've been finding that scenario 1 is the most common. I've always struggled between holding back an explosive Song in order to flip Akroma a turn or two down the road, or exploding with Song, but find myself gassed out, but with 1-2 more creatures swinging. I think Elemental is the best creature for that interchangeable slot too.

Taco, this will most undoubtedly get laughed at, but have you tested Bogardan Firefiend at that slot?

Tacosnape

03-18-2008, 04:30 PM

Taco, this will most undoubtedly get laughed at, but have you tested Bogardan Firefiend at that slot?

Eh. It doesn't seem like it's all that good. If I'm going to run something that's fragile as a threat in this deck, I want it to fix problems. I run SSG because it fixes mana problems, and I run Magus of the Moon because it beats Legacy.

For slot #6, if I want a problem-fixer rather than a beatstick, I'd rather run Scalding Salamander or Fire Ants and fix my Empty the Warrens problems. Or I'd rather run Sulfur Elemental and fix my Cephalid Breakfast / Harmonic Sliver problems.

Arsenal

03-18-2008, 04:33 PM

Eh. It doesn't seem like it's all that good. If I'm going to run something that's fragile as a threat in this deck, I want it to fix problems. I run SSG because it fixes mana problems, and I run Magus of the Moon because it beats Legacy.

For slot #6, if I want a problem-fixer rather than a beatstick, I'd rather run Scalding Salamander or Fire Ants and fix my Empty the Warrens problems. Or I'd rather run Sulfur Elemental and fix my Cephalid Breakfast / Harmonic Sliver problems.

I was looking at Firefiend as a 2R beater that can double as conditional spot removal. Sorta like the baby brother of FTK, but with a slightly different impact (Firefiend's combat math versus FTK's main phase assasination).

Yeah, it was just an idea I was kicking around. Elemental still gets the nod, but I think I'll test Firefiend for a bit just to be sure.

savemysoul

03-19-2008, 11:51 AM

Why not fire imp than ?

Tacosnape

03-19-2008, 12:07 PM

Why not fire imp than ?

Same reasons as not Flametongue Kavu:

1. Having to choose between killing your own shit and not getting Hellbent when they don't have a target for it is bad. Although, actually, Fire Imp at least can hit your own Dragon/Raiders to get himself in play in a pinch, so this would be less of an issue.

2. A shot for 2 isn't all that great. Arc-Slogger does rapid-fire for 2, and Pyrokinesis eats 2-vulnerable guys for breakfast. FTK can't make it in on a shot for 4, even.

Suguru

03-20-2008, 09:18 AM

@Direct Damage: You do run Direct Damage. It's called Arc-Slogger. As for maindeck burn-style direct damage (assuming you're excluding things that don't hit players), it isn't worth it. You can't get enough of it to improve your board position effectively, and drawing it early is complete shit. If you have threats on the board, it's not hard to outrace your opponent with Dragon's insane pumping and evasion and Slogger's reach. And if you don't have threats on the board, you need more threats, not burn spells. If you do run them, however, Demonfire's your best bet, mainly because it's easy to get out of your hand in a pinch, and if you get a slow start you can do it for 1 to pick off a fast Lackey/Confidant/whatever.

Yes, but Slogger's direct damage is rather limited by your red mana sources (unless you have a Moon effect) and the cards on your deck.

I guess I will test Demonfire (maybe 2 of them). I think it is worth it because of the amounts of mana the deck is able to get, and because of the Hellbent.

It will rarely be a dead card in your hand so it will rarely cut my Hellbent. And I guess it will be a card you will always be happy to topdeck. If it comes with a Seething Song it can be as good as RPD (it will deal less damage, but it will surely hit the opponent).

@Powder Keg: Actually, it just gets rid of very little that I don't have a better answer to (The notable exception being ETW Tokens.) It can't touch an Enchantment, and most of the cards that really hurt me are enchantments. Tarmogoyf can be outraced if not killed outright, and most other low-cost creatures capitulate to Pyrokinesis. Manlands are better dealt with through Blood Moon, and most Artifacts I would want to get rid of can be dealt with faster and cheaper via Pithing Needle.

OMG!! I forgot Powder Keg didn't target enchantments!! :cry: (And when I was thinking of it, it was mainly because of enchantments such as Survival or CoP).
The only thing that could deal with enchantments would be Nervinyrral Disk, but it would also destroy my Moxes and Chalices, so maybe it wouldn't be a good idea.
Anyway, this may change depending on the metagame. If decks using enchantments such as Worship or Solitary Confinement were more played, maybe Disk should be added to the Sb...

@Trinisphere: It shines in some matchups. No question. It also makes you die in games where it's subpar due to it not giving you choices as to what to imprint on your Mox. Or by being topdecked on turn 3, where it starts to suck against a lot of decks. However, it's still really solid against Threshold and Storm Combo. My current list is experimenting with another card in its place that improves Threshold/Landstill/MUC matches, but leaves my Storm Combo match sort of iffy. I'll post results/explanations if I decide it's worth it.

Can you give us an advance of what card you are talking about? :tongue:

@Threats: I advise skipping Akroma. Sulfur Elemental and Taurean Mauler are better choices.

I will think about it. I still agree with those who say Taurean Mauler is an horrible topdeck.
Akroma would be one of the bigger creatures played in Legacy, unaffected by half of Legacy removal (StP) and almost impossible to kill with Pernitous Deed (of course, if you morph it).
Maybe I didn't find Sulfur Elemental as good because I didn't use its potential as a removal card (using its flash ability in the combat phase) and because I ran only 1 of them in the maindeck.

Maybe next time I will try with 2 Akroma/Sulfur Elemental and 2 Demonfire instead of 3 Trinisphere and 1 Sulfur Elemental.

But now here comes another question: when I get the 4th mox, what should I replace it for? Maybe for one of the moons (what about 6 Moon effects?), as people seem to disagree with carrying less than 4 Sloggers...

NecroYawgmoth

03-20-2008, 11:27 AM

Yeah, that's a good question...

Are 6 Moon-Effects enough for the Mainboard (if you play 4 Trinis main)?
(the other 2 are in the SB)

I don't like the Mauler, he is good in the early game, but bad in the lategame... Trini does the same, and I like it more then the Mauler...

For what reason you need FTK???, You have 4 Pyrokinesis in the board...
You don't need Fire Imp for the same reasons + you have 4 Sloggers...

YawG

Tacosnape

03-20-2008, 01:12 PM

OMG!! I forgot Powder Keg didn't target enchantments!! :cry: (And when I was thinking of it, it was mainly because of enchantments such as Survival or CoP).
The only thing that could deal with enchantments would be Nervinyrral Disk, but it would also destroy my Moxes and Chalices, so maybe it wouldn't be a good idea.
Anyway, this may change depending on the metagame. If decks using enchantments such as Worship or Solitary Confinement were more played, maybe Disk should be added to the Sb...

Theoretically there's already an answer to most enchantments you'll run across. For all the ones there isn't a great answer for, Anarchy solves it if you think it's worth having a solution to:

Survival of the Fittest
Needle it, or get down a fast Chal-2. Crypt can hurt them slightly also, and Moon can mess up their manabase.

Circle of Protection: Red
Needle it, or kill your opponent with face-down guys. Hellbent Pit Dragons take 2 mana to stop, interestingly enough. If too many white enchantments show up in your metagame, Anarchy can help.

Counterbalance
Ignore it. You're pretty strong against Counterbalance anyway due to your curve. Don't misunderstand, though, it can hurt you if it comes down fast enough and your opponent happens to have the right configuration. Chalice for 2 stops it, but it's better to aim for an early Chalice for 1 to keep SDT/Brainstorm from making Counterbalance dangerous. Needle on Sensei's Divining Top works too, in the odd case people leave in Counterbalance against you.

Pernicious Deed
Needle it (Starting to see why I run 4x Needle in board?), or take away their ability to cast it via Moons. Deed can hurt with a slow start.

Moat
Annoying as all hell. Chalice for 1 so STP can't kill your Dragon, then Dragon over it. Alternately, Slogger has reach. Again, investigate Anarchy if this is prevalent, though I've never seen a metagame where more than one person runs Moat due to cost/availability.

Humility
Also annoying as all hell, and also solved by Anarchy. Take away their manland blockers (Assuming it's Landstill) with Blood Moon and try to barrel through. Your best bet is to get control of this sort of match quickly. Against UW Landstill, this is the one place where Demonfire shines above all else. Against Rifter, you're just flat out in trouble, as Rifter eats Dragon Stompy if they can Swords their way out of your opening onslaught.

Worship
Does anything run this? Slogger their creatures away. Jitte away the pro-red ones. Try to deck them if you see Nimble Mongoose. (Hit with Jitte/Move it to a Blocker every turn and drop Lock-pieces galore) Anarchy's an option if this is for some reason prevalent in your metagame.

Ghostly Prison/Propaganda
Only a huge problem in multiples. Most decks that run these tend to lack a lot of spot removal, meaning it's not hard to keep a single giant threat on the table. Against Stax, focus on a Slogger if you have a choice, as Hellbent is hard to achieve and mana is in short demand (Plus, Slogger can eat Magus of the Tabernacle's face.) Against most other decks that run these, Rakdos Pit Dragon's your best option for singlehandedly going the distance. Anarchy solves Prisons, but not Propaganda.

Solitary Confinement
Tormod's Crypt answers this if it's in a Confinement/Squee lock shell, or a Confinement/Loam engine. If it's Enchantress, you probably weren't going to win anyway (This is seriously the worst matchup Dragon Stompy has), but Anarchy might occasionally lets you sneak the last point of damage through and Needle on Sterling Grove might buy you enough time to prevent severe problems. Rolling Earthquake/Pyroclasm are good against Enchantress, too, as keeping them off Draw Engines = Keeping them off Confinement lock.

Can you give us an advance of what card you are talking about? :tongue:

I'll give you a hint. It's green.

I still agree with those who say Taurean Mauler is an horrible topdeck.

It is a horrible topdeck. No argument. But it's no worse of a topdeck than Akroma if you don't have flip mana. And it's still a better topdeck than a Trinisphere or something that doesn't kill your opponent. It's just not as good of a topdeck as Sulfur Elemental.

But now here comes another question: when I get the 4th mox, what should I replace it for? Maybe for one of the moons (what about 6 Moon effects?), as people seem to disagree with carrying less than 4 Sloggers...

Depends on your list.

Yeah, that's a good question...

Are 6 Moon-Effects enough for the Mainboard (if you play 4 Trinis main)?
(the other 2 are in the SB)

If you're running quad Trinisphere, which is way too many, then yeah, 6 Moon effects will have to be enough.

Phantom

03-20-2008, 01:58 PM

@ Humility: Don't forget that equipment owns Humility in the face.

@ green card: Leyline???

Tacosnape

03-20-2008, 02:09 PM

@ Humility: Don't forget that equipment owns Humility in the face.

SOFI, which I don't run, owns Humility in the face. Jitte just lightly slaps it in the face, then runs to hide behind a tree. (Although if you get it going, the extra 4 a turn makes a big difference.) The hard part is making the justification to keep equipment in against a control deck. Though for the most part, decks packing Humility are packing that much less actual removal (And they tend to like Decree of Justice), which would probably make keeping Jitte in a good idea.

@green card: Leyline???

The Tacosnape campaign has no comment at this time.

deviant

03-20-2008, 02:17 PM

Tarmogoyf? :tongue:

NecroYawgmoth

03-20-2008, 07:19 PM

My list is the following:

10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song

4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Arc-Slogger
2 Akroma, Angel of Fury

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
2 Blood Moon
2 Umezawa's Jitte

SB:
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Pithing Needle
4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Blood Moon
1 Umezawa's Jitte

@Tacosnape: Why are 4 Trinis too much, you want to have them on the opening hand...

Wallace

03-20-2008, 08:03 PM

Sanguine Voyeur

03-20-2008, 08:18 PM

There's no easy way for Dragon Stompy to get it in the graveyard. The only discard outlet is Raiders. It's just a 2/2 for four with a mostly irrelevant ability.

socialite

03-20-2008, 08:20 PM

I was just wondering if anyone runs Anger in this deck? Is it any good or is it just a "win more" card. I am looking to play Dragon Stompy and I am looking for some innovation to add to the current builds...

That is like saying you want to innovate breasts, you just don't change something that is already really really good.

Anger looks janky at best, you would really only have 4 ways to dump it into the grave yard (Raiders) unless I am missing something. Even then like you said it looks like win more.

If you want to "innovate" Dragon Stompy, find something utterly amazing for that 3 CC slot that currently resides as either Mauler or Sulfur Elemental.

savemysoul

03-21-2008, 12:56 AM

@Tacosnape: Why are 4 Trinis too much, you want to have them on the opening hand...

You don`t want to have 2 in hand ...

mujadaddy

03-21-2008, 11:24 AM

That is like saying you want to innovate breasts, you just don't change something that is already really really good.I completely agree. Boob doctors need to be hanged.

deviant

03-22-2008, 04:01 PM

Tacosnape

03-22-2008, 05:29 PM

I wrote a tournament report about today's tournament because I felt like it. If someone wants to waste some time here's the link and all:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=217428#post217428

Sorry for an "empty" post but all relevant I have to say atm are in the report.

Sweet job. Your list is a whopping 1 card off from mine when I run Sulfurs (I have 4 Kinesis and 2 Trinisphere in the sideboard.), and it does definitely seem like you had no use for the Trinispheres in that rundown.

Shame you couldn't get the Leylines for your metagame. Looks like they might have helped in your 3rd and 4th rounds, given that you had Maguses forced.

EDIT: After reading your reports, it looks like Sulfur did better than Taurean would have done for that series of matchups, given that you faced neither Goblins nor Threshold (Mauler's time to shine) but did face Cephalid Breakfast (Sulfur Elemental's specialty.) So good choice and I'll add this to my Sulfur-versus-Mauler thoughts.

Phantom

03-22-2008, 05:32 PM

Congrats. That list looks super solid.

I've been screwing around on MWS with an equipment-less list with no Trinis main. More thoughts on this later.

deviant

03-22-2008, 05:46 PM

Thank you very much.
You just made smile a little.

And yes, the leylines would have been sweet to try out. And Sulfurs were definitely the biggest surprises of today. I'll never look at Akroma again, ever.
(Next time I'll probably play 4 of them..)
Seriously though, Sulfurs did EVERYTHING today; they raped a Bob. They came to beat through counter-wall. They crapped all over breakfast..
They are solid, and if you don't seriously have good reason to expect a strange and defined metagame they are the way to go. ( In goblins heavy-meta maulers are probably better but in any other case I'd go with sulfurs myself. )

And as a side-note: have noticed me complaining that we have only control here and no goblins and all? There were a whopping two goblins today!! Whoopee! Sadly, the lists were from 2002 or something.. And that fifth round beatz-list was a very successful metagame-call. I mean the deck sucks, sure, but it beats the living shit out of control :)

Tacosnape

03-22-2008, 06:34 PM

Congrats. That list looks super solid.

I've been screwing around on MWS with an equipment-less list with no Trinis main. More thoughts on this later.

MD Pyrokinesis? Or what?

I think it's really hard to get away from 2-3 Jittes. Jitte does so much and it fits so perfectly in the curve. Turn one any 3-drop threat / Turn two Jitte/Equip/Swing is a nice opening against an incredibly large number of decks. Jitte covers lifegain, removal, a way around protection from red, and an increased clock. Not to mention it gets rid of opponent's Jittes, which can cause you severe problems. I'll concede that it is possible that Jitte could eventually become a sideboard card, but as of right now I feel it just wins too many games.

deviant

03-22-2008, 06:43 PM

I agree mostly.
2 Jittes do not clog your hand in any way, or if you feel like they clog, you should change to ***** since we also play sloggers and dragons, and they do sometimes clog up. And so does multiple lands.
Anyways, I think 2-3 md jittes and 1-2 sb is good atm.
It's only that I have never won a single game because of jitte. It has made me not lose sometimes though, which is almost as good. For me it's just that there is nothing good enough to justify not running Jittes. They are, however, constantly under scrutiny.

(As a side note: I wish we could play seven pithing needles. That would be the correct number in the sideboard.)

Tacosnape

03-22-2008, 06:55 PM

It's only that I have never won a single game because of jitte.

I have. Quite a lot, in fact. Jitte bails your ass out of the fire against Burn, wrecks Goblins when you don't have a Slogger (A Jitte'd Mauler is absolute insanity), slaughters a lot of black aggro decks, gives you game-1 prowess against creature-based combo, and lets your guys get big enough to beat a Tarmogoyf on the ground. And they eat face against random decks like that round 5 thing you faced. And without any equipment, you really have to quit counting your Simian Spirit Guides as threats. Jitte makes them actually relevant.

Jitte wins games because Jitte bails you out of more unexpected situations than any one other card in the deck you can possibly imagine.

(As a side note: I wish we could play seven pithing needles. That would be the correct number in the sideboard.)

I might only play six. But I concur. Four is often too few.

Phantom

03-22-2008, 07:01 PM

MD Pyrokinesis? Or what?

A couple, and like a bazillion threats. I actually started it to see the difference between Mauler, Akroma, and Sulfur by running all of them. No one had to tell me how nuts Jitte is here or anywhere, it's just that it's kinda crappy in a some matchups.

The build is just a ton of fun to play, and making mox choices is like being a kid in a candy store (or me in a liquor store). It just kills the board though trying to fit in Jitte, Trini, Needle, Crypt, and the remaining Blood Moons. On MWS though I face little to no Storm and yard combo, so I cut back on the Trinis and Crypts.

Tacosnape

03-24-2008, 01:35 AM

A couple, and like a bazillion threats. I actually started it to see the difference between Mauler, Akroma, and Sulfur by running all of them. No one had to tell me how nuts Jitte is here or anywhere, it's just that it's kinda crappy in a some matchups.

The build is just a ton of fun to play, and making mox choices is like being a kid in a candy store (or me in a liquor store). It just kills the board though trying to fit in Jitte, Trini, Needle, Crypt, and the remaining Blood Moons. On MWS though I face little to no Storm and yard combo, so I cut back on the Trinis and Crypts.

I messed around with a 26-threat build where the entire deck was Threats, Manabase, 4 Chalice, 4 Moon. It worked fairly well, actually, it just felt like there wasn't enough room in the sideboard and that I had a lot of problems without the Jitte maindeck. The pair just adds so much versatility to the deck at so little a cost.

Also, on Sulfur-versus-Mauler, I'm fixing to be at a crossroads given that in today's tournament three of my four matches were Goblins, Goblins, Cephalid Breakfast (I was playing Survival, though.) Interesting options.

deviant

03-24-2008, 05:02 AM

About Mauler being sweet against goblins:
I understand the point was that he blocks lackey despite of possible warren weirding? (Or at least that's where he's really good at.)
But so does Magus? They only have red mana now, and magus blocks lackeys all day long.
Just this other day I played against R/g/b Goblins on MWS, they started with badlands, lackey. I went Magus. They played a taiga and a second lackey. I just played a land. He attacked with two lackeys to my lone Magus and yes, of course I had the sulfur, but he really couldn't afford to hold back and wait for slogger now could he? So now I had stuff, and he didn't. I proceeded to play chalices at one and two and then some hellbent action finished the game quick. Good times.

The point: I'm with sulfur for now.

ChillerKiller0815

03-25-2008, 08:48 AM

Hi guys, I have some thoughts I would like discussed.

1. Is Bloodmoon #4 MD material??? I often stumble into to many moon effect causing me to lose to much of my pressure. What is your experience?

2. I am sticking to Sulfur Elemental because of the tricks he can pull off (suprise block / kill stuff in certain matchups like breakfast / dodge counters / play EOT -> equip attack next turn). I found that he is literally begging for equipment to seal a game out of nowhere. So what is a sufficent number of equipments to run considering 3-4 MD sulfurs and 4 SSG???

3. I have 3 slots for equipment at the moment ( 3 Jitte). My question is if there are alternatives to jitte worth consideration ??? SoFaI doesn´t do to well with hellbent and dragon. SoLaS compensates lifeloss due to tomb, gets craetures out of grave if needed, could get multiple chewer if played in SB in certain metas, protection from swords, vindicate,....no idea. Grafted Wargear can easily be played on a first turn magus and equiped the same turn making it a reasonable clock and getting him to a good size but can be a 2 for 1 trade and does no extra tricks. Lightning greaves protects your dragons and such from bolts, swords and stuff and can cause a faster kill.....

4. Since 3Sphere is Sb material by now, wouldn´t be Thorn of amethyst be a better choice? It cripples Storm combo as well, hits cantrip plans as well, multiple get better, doesnt hurt your 24 creature plan in case you get manacrippled, is an almost 100% first turn drop with almost any hand, sometimes can even be played turn 2 along with a second card netting a turn (example : trun1 -> Chalice at one ; turn 2 -> Thorn + Moon or jitte or morph...causing the creature drop to be nearly countersafe), doesn´t suck as bad with pyrokinesis but does interfere with chalice @ 2. ->Thoughts?

Just trying to get some pro/con discussion going that goes beyond..... that XY card won me games....

Tacosnape

03-25-2008, 07:52 PM

Hi guys, I have some thoughts I would like discussed.

1. Is Bloodmoon #4 MD material??? I often stumble into to many moon effect causing me to lose to much of my pressure. What is your experience?

Against a top tier metagame, the general consensus is yes. A turn one Blood Moon can wreak havoc against decks that pack 6-8 basics even, due to its ability to shut off fetchlands. It's one of the few cards you can run that can immediately win a game no questions asked. It turns all your land Red for abusing Slogger / Pit Dragon once they're down. And if it sucks, you've got eight maindeck ways to ditch the thing.

2. I am sticking to Sulfur Elemental because of the tricks he can pull off (suprise block / kill stuff in certain matchups like breakfast / dodge counters / play EOT -> equip attack next turn). I found that he is literally begging for equipment to seal a game out of nowhere. So what is a sufficent number of equipments to run considering 3-4 MD sulfurs and 4 SSG???

Creatures + Equipment = 26 is a good guideline.

3. I have 3 slots for equipment at the moment ( 3 Jitte). My question is if there are alternatives to jitte worth consideration ??? SoFaI doesn´t do to well with hellbent and dragon. SoLaS compensates lifeloss due to tomb, gets craetures out of grave if needed, could get multiple chewer if played in SB in certain metas, protection from swords, vindicate,....no idea. Grafted Wargear can easily be played on a first turn magus and equiped the same turn making it a reasonable clock and getting him to a good size but can be a 2 for 1 trade and does no extra tricks. Lightning greaves protects your dragons and such from bolts, swords and stuff and can cause a faster kill.....

It's hard to not run Jitte given that most equipment in magic A: Costs more mana, and B: does less. SOFI is a weak choice unless you plan to face the mirror a lot, and SOLS is just generally a weaker card. Loxodon Warhammer's too expensive, Lightning Greaves is awful. Grafted Wargear is underrated and pretty neat, but the 2-for-1 thing is kind of a risk.

Jitte is really your best choice, though. I'm of the personal opinion that any deck running any equipment other than Umezawa's Jitte without first running four Umezawa's Jitte is worth looking at for re-examination. Jitte solves most of your problems the deck can't solve otherwise in one cheap, easy to cast card.

4. Since 3Sphere is Sb material by now, wouldn´t be Thorn of amethyst be a better choice?

Probably not. Thorn of Amethyst actually hurts you. Trinisphere doesn't much. Trinisphere's 3-cost is infinitely more important against decks that play free spells, also, such as anything with Dread Return or Force of Will. And Trinisphere negates most black and red mana accelerants found in Storm Combo rather than just making them weaker.

Neither one is especially a powerhouse given that the deck still has no real mana quantity denial to accompany it, but there are a good number of decks that are completely wrecked by Trinisphere whether there's backup or not. Less are hosed by Thorn.[/QUOTE]

Sanguine Voyeur

03-25-2008, 08:01 PM

Grafted Wargear is underrated and pretty neat, but the 2-for-1 thing is kind of a risk.How many decks would maindeck artifact removal? Deed [and Punishment] would have to be set to three, and that would kill what ever creature it's on sans Dragon and Slogger. Sulpher Elemental becomes a 6/4. Jitte can make it a 7/6, but only after is has counters. People will side in artifact/enchantment removal in game two, but they do that anyway and Wargear can come out for Pyrokineis or something.

Not to say that Grafted Wargear is better then Jitte or Swords. Those are flat out better.

Tacosnape

03-25-2008, 09:53 PM

How many decks would maindeck artifact removal?

Goblins often maindecks Tin-Street Hooligan. Half the BGW Dorangoyf decks in the universe regardless of speed or classification run Vindicate. Some Threshold builds run a Rushing River. Eva Green, which is a questionable matchup anyway, runs maindeck Seal of Primordium. Survival runs at least a maindeck Harmonic Sliver or Stomphowler, and usually an artifact remover as a Burning Wish target in builds that run Wish. Death and Taxes can get 2 for 1 via Mangara of Corondor. And I don't think we're far off from the time when a few decks start maindecking Krosan Grip. And none of this is counting sideboard options. All of these pretty much do the trick, and any one of them can cause you to lose a game.

Grafted Wargear is too scary to run in a well-crafted metagame.

Sanguine Voyeur

03-25-2008, 10:00 PM

Goblins often maindecks Tin-Street Hooligan. Half the BGW Dorangoyf decks in the universe regardless of speed or classification run Vindicate. Some Threshold builds run a Rushing River. Eva Green, which is a questionable matchup anyway, runs maindeck Seal of Primordium. Survival runs at least a maindeck Harmonic Sliver or Stomphowler, and usually an artifact remover as a Burning Wish target in builds that run Wish. Death and Taxes can get 2 for 1 via Mangara of Corondor. And I don't think we're far off from the time when a few decks start maindecking Krosan Grip. And none of this is counting sideboard options. All of these pretty much do the trick, and any one of them can cause you to lose a game.

Grafted Wargear is too scary to run in a well-crafted metagame.That's a lot more then I though. I was only thinking of Landstill and decks that side Krosan Grip. It seems as though there are no apt replacements for Jitte, unless there's some red/artifact card that speeds up your clock, acts as removal, or both.

Bovinious

03-25-2008, 10:10 PM

Creatures + Equipment = 26 is a good guideline.

How can this be possible? 30 cards in the deck are mana sources (8 2 mana lands, 4 Song, 4 SSG, 4 Mox, 10 Mountains), and then you are running 4 Chalice. In addition you just said that the 4th Blood Moon MD is prolly a good call, so thats another 4, and also theres the possibility of some number a 3spheres MD. I just dont see how Threats + Equipment can equal more than 22-23 unless Im really missing something...

EDIT: I just realized SSG is creature, my bad...Ill leave this up though in case anyone else was confused.

ChillerKiller0815

03-26-2008, 06:55 AM

I will post here my current list that includes many of your suggestions - thank you guys at this point.

10xMountain
4xAncient Tomb
4xCity of Traitors

4xGathan Raiders
4xMagus of the Moon
4xRakdos Pit Dragon
4xArc Slogger
4xSSG
3x Sulfur Elemental

3xJitte
4xChalice of the Void
4xBlood Moon

4xSeething Song
4xChrome Mox

Sideboard:
4xPyrokinesis
4xPithing Needle
4x3Sphere
3xCrypt

Points I am not sure on:
1)maybe I should move 1 moon to the SB ->max sulfur and cut 1 3Sphere
2)is crypt needed? or are cards vs. tokens/artefacts/blue... more useful (Ingot Chewer, Shattering Spree, PowderKeg,REB.....)
3)Is 3 the right number for equipments? If not is the 4th equipment an extra Jitte or something else (maybe wargear to turn the weak creatures into threats and up the clock)???
4)Has anyone really tested the Thorns???

Thanks for ideas...

deviant

03-26-2008, 09:04 AM

Crypts are good against Ichorid, Breakfast, Tog, ***** and whatnot. I consider them worth the slot.
4 Trinispheres are overkill though, if not by chance you play only against ***** and storm combo, and in that case they should be maindecked.
I would, however, cut them from the sb, if storm (or recruiter aluren?!) isn't prevalent.

Maindeck looks good though, It's almost exactly my last build (see my report for reference if nothing better to do). Only things I would consider changing are -1 Jitte +1 Sulfur (a preference call), but if you do this, make sure you have the 3rd Jitte in your sb. Then the Sulfurs could be Maulers, but I preference Sulfur atm. I will, however, probably play Maulers next time just to give them a whirl.

And in the sb, I think it should look like this:
4 Needle
3-4 Pyrokinesis
0-1 Jitte
3-4 Crypt
0/2/3 Trinisphere
0-4 ReB (if heavily control meta, and even then maybe not. I find counter-heavy control manageable even without, and ReB's a bit narrow.)
And 0-3 Shattering Spree?

And about the Thorns - I did consider them at the point where I wanted to find a secret blowout-tech and rule the world, but they're just not meant to be. Trini is better for the purpose of hampering opponents play, and it gets less in our way, and even trini is dubious.

Tacosnape

03-26-2008, 11:17 AM

@Chiller: I like that list. Solid.

I might distantly suggest going down to three Trinispheres in side. Multiple is never good, even in matches you really need them. You could add a fourth Tormod's Crypt, or a fourth Jitte, or a single random other card you feel you might need.

As for the Crypts, I find them to be worthwhile. You need yard hate for Ichorid, Cephalid Breakfast, and 600 other random things that abuse the yard. It's worth noting, though, that I don't personally advocate boarding Tormod's Crypt in against Threshold.

Hightower

03-26-2008, 12:05 PM

So we ditched singleton Akroma for good now?

Arsenal

03-26-2008, 12:16 PM

Meh. I think it's meta dependant (she's good in heavy control metas), but overall, Sulfur Elemental seems to be the best option.

I used starcitygames.com Advanced Card Search for all Red creatures with CMC = 3. There were a few that piqued my interest, but Sulfur Elemental was the best out of what I saw.

mnellsae

03-26-2008, 12:55 PM

Quoted from a few pages ago:

@Trinisphere: It shines in some matchups. No question. It also makes you die in games where it's subpar due to it not giving you choices as to what to imprint on your Mox. Or by being topdecked on turn 3, where it starts to suck against a lot of decks. However, it's still really solid against Threshold and Storm Combo. My current list is experimenting with another card in its place that improves Threshold/Landstill/MUC matches, but leaves my Storm Combo match sort of iffy. I'll post results/explanations if I decide it's worth it.

I'll give you a hint. It's green.

If you're going to splash green (although it would seem that any stompy deck would almost have to be mono color), maybe take a look at Quagnoth. My guess is that it's a trick hint, and you're talking about Giant Solifuge.

Any results on this mystery tech?

deviant

03-26-2008, 06:36 PM

Don't you people follow this thread?
Look now:

@ green card: Leyline???

Shame you couldn't get the Leylines for your metagame. Looks like they might have helped in your 3rd and 4th rounds, given that you had Maguses forced.

Tacosnape

03-26-2008, 08:55 PM

Leyline of Lifeforce isn't bad as a Trinisphere replacement in SB if you've got a metagame full of Threshold, Landstill, and Control. You'd be amazed how easily you can steamroll these decks when they can't counter your dudes.

The only drawbacks are that it takes up sideboard slots that could help in other matchups, and that it will occasionally fuck with your Hellbent. The latter drawback is what keeps me from strongly advocating it in anything but the Bluemost metagames.

Also, be careful about keeping mana-light hands dependent on Chrome Mox with a Leyline, as a lot of decks will suddenly decide that countering that Mox looks like a more appealing idea.

ChillerKiller0815

03-31-2008, 10:40 AM

Hi guys,
I played a small turnament last weekend (20 players). I played the List I posted a page back or so.

Ended up #6:

1. WhiteStaxx: Lost 1-2
I have no answer to artifacts and propaganda. They don´t roll over to Moon, 3Sphere and Chalice.

2. 1-Land Belcher Won 2-0
Chalice@0 does the trick. Boarded 4 Needle, 4 Pyrokinesis and 3 Trini ;-)

3. Life.dec Won 2-0
Preboard won me a Chalice @1. Postboard I got the Needle vs. Vial

4. Burn Lost 1-2
I play Tomb, he plays basics :-( He played Ensnaring Bridge main which won him game 1 . I have nothing to board and he boards sulfuric vortex but has no shattering spree in board. I lose again even though i had chalice 1 and 2

5. AggroLoam Won 2-1
Stupid games: both get manascrewed due to bad draws or get mana overkill ( Loam Player got 6 manas in a row he didn´t draw anything else but mana!)
I got Lucky and won

A little artifact hate would have been handy in the SB. Any ideas, experience or suggestions?
Please note that I only played against decks that don´t care about Moon effects :-(

deviant

03-31-2008, 10:56 AM

I've tested Keldon Vandals, but they're not really impressive due to the echo. That Lorwyn elemental costs a little too much as a beatstick, but could be useful in some situations, there is only Shattering Spree really worth looking into.

Hightower

03-31-2008, 11:16 AM

Why isn't this in the "Decks to Beat" forum? it has won several tournaments already..

Tacosnape

03-31-2008, 11:59 AM

Hi guys,
I played a small turnament last weekend (20 players). I played the List I posted a page back or so.

Ended up #6:

A little artifact hate would have been handy in the SB. Any ideas, experience or suggestions?
Please note that I only played against decks that don´t care about Moon effects :-(

Shattering Spree is your best artifact hate plan for sideboard. Period.

Despite the fact that you -boarded- Trinispheres, did you ever actually play one in those matches? If not, then you steamrolled two combo decks without it.

Stax is kind of coin-flippy, considering whichever deck is going first is favored and Ghostly Prison's really the only thing you care a lot about. Your best bet against Stax is insanely turbocharged power threats followed by Chalice for 0 to stop their Moxes. Shattering Spree can make a difference, but Ghostly Prison's still your bigger threat.

I'm still amazed at how often people lose to Burn with this deck given Chalice + Jitte, but Ensnaring Bridge is admittedly pretty random shit for Legacy. DS does tend to lose to jank, which is its biggest problem.

Your biggest concern was that you managed to play 5 matches, 4 of which Blood Moon is completely awful against. You might consider shipping two of your four Blood Moons to the sideboard in this metagame, or contemplate a different deck altogether.

ChillerKiller0815

04-01-2008, 04:46 AM

@ Tacosnape:
Thanks for the Input.

I wasn´t really complaining about the deck. I was rather suprised that I ended up beeing Top 6 even though I had to face a lot of difficult matchups. Next time I might have different matchups in which Moon gets to kick ass.
The Deck I will play this weekend including artifact hate:

10 Mountain
4 City
4 Tomb

4 Gathan
4 RPD
4 SSG
4 MotM
4 Arc Slogger
4 Sulfur

3 Moon
3 Jitte
4 Seething Song
4 Mox
4 Chalice

SB
4 Needle
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Crypt
2 Trinisphere (starting to think that this card is not needed in most matchups and the matchups that 3sphere is good for the rest of the sideboard does the job as well)
3 Shattering Spree

mercenarybdu

04-03-2008, 11:18 PM

Found an old video explaining this prototype although it is very badly explained:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4N0VG-oNiqQ&feature=related

luka66_6

04-04-2008, 11:16 AM

Is this what you were looking for? (from new edition)

http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/mtgcom/products/shadowmoor/images/milruzepzg_EN.jpg

Dilettante

04-04-2008, 11:22 AM

Gouger, unfortunately... is probably harder to cast in this deck than ARCSLOGGER... I'm afraid 3R is a lot harder than it looks... and Gathan Raiders makes it look like a chump, still.

Tacosnape

04-04-2008, 11:41 AM

Gouger's awful here. We play bigger guys with greater ease that can block. He'll be fantastic in some Sui Black-esque builds, but in Dragon Stompy, triple mana symbols are a nightmare we want no part of.

Although I must admit I am completely intrigued to see what the triple :2:/:r: hybrid spell is.

Nothing else looks particularly awesome at the moment. Rosheen might be okay with Demonfire, but neither one's overwhelmingly good. The Creamtor guy is bad. And Scuzzback Marauders is actually sort of neat (Trample + Persist = Badass), but the 5-cost means he's gotta compete with Arc-Slogger.

Mental

04-04-2008, 02:19 PM

Tacosnape

04-04-2008, 02:30 PM

Wait...I don't play this deck anymore, but Trinisphere is BAD now? In my experience, Moon and 3 Sphere were the 2 best disruption pieces in the deck.

Trinisphere isn't bad. It's just that Trinisphere has absolutely nothing backing it up in the mana denial department, making it less than ideal in certain metagames. It's still a facebeating against combo and Threshold, and while it's awesome on turn one (or even two on the play), it's absolute suck most other times. For example, when you lose the die roll.

Due to a lot of control and mid-range aggro heavy on the 3CC slot in my metagame, I've relegated Trinisphere to sideboard.

Dilettante

04-04-2008, 02:33 PM

I've done the same as well with mine... I don't see enough storm combo... and it only *really* helps against Ichorid really otherwise... People are starting to get used to it and prepare to play around it... but once they forget...

mercenarybdu

04-04-2008, 07:40 PM

Is this what you were looking for? (from new edition)

http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/mtgcom/products/shadowmoor/images/milruzepzg_EN.jpg

Looks like a great creature to Ritual out into play and start hitting on turn one but if you end up on the defensive then tough tihs.

Skullclamping

04-04-2008, 07:50 PM

trinisphere helpsme a lot vs burn (chalice does it alone but... you cant have it allways :P)

mercenarybdu

04-05-2008, 07:14 PM

trinisphere helpsme a lot vs burn (chalice does it alone but... you cant have it allways :P)

true in most game states.

Suguru

04-05-2008, 08:23 PM

I have been playing an extended game and my opponent played a card I think should be worth trying in the Dragon Stompy.

It is Fury of the Horde: Sorcery 5RR "You may remove two red cards in your hand from the game rather than pay Fury of the Horde's mana cost.
Untap all creatures that attacked this turn. After this main phase, there is an additional combat phase followed by an additional main phase."

With our big creatures it could be definitive to have an extra combat phase. And of course, it would also help reaching Hellbent.
The bad thing would be the Hellbent itself. If we topdeck it when we have Hellbent it will be very difficult to get rid of...

Maybe I will try it in the OCTGN and I will tell you the results (if I get to find opponents there :rolleyes: )

DrewliusMaximus

04-06-2008, 02:07 PM

I tried test-drawing 2 Blazing Shoal MD instead of the 2 Jittes (in the list with 4 Sulfur Elemental + 8 Moon + 0 Trini MD) and found it did some interesting things for the Hellbent cause. Maybe something other than Jitte could be substituted, but having all red cards is nice. Is this idea stupid?

Nihil Credo

04-06-2008, 04:32 PM

I would like some suggestions for a metagame-specific build of this archetype. The tournament I'm planning to bring this one to is a large one (over 100 players); the Emilian region is known for its extremely conservative players, who rarely deviate from their trademark decks: R/W Goblins, UGW/UGR Thresh, and 4C Landstill (often with Tombstalker/Goyf) are going to be common sights, with some Pikula-style BGW lists thrown in. People will of course come from all over Italy, but since it's a large event I expect them to stick with their tested decks as well.

On the basis of those assumptions, I was considering the following list:

// Lands
10 [UNH] Mountain
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors

// Creatures
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
4 [MR] Arc-Slogger
4 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
4 [DIS] Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 [FUT] Gathan Raiders
2 [MOR] Taurean Mauler
1 [PLC] Akroma, Angel of Fury

// Spells
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [9E] Seething Song
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [9E] Blood Moon

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [PLC] Akroma, Angel of Fury
SB: 3 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 4 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [10E] Pyroclasm
SB: 3 [AT] Pyrokinesis

8 Blood Moons seem an auto-include in this metagame (Dragon Stompy is also basically unplayed in Italy, so they should be particularly strong). Taurean Mauler is often better than Sulfur Elemental against Threshold, especially UGR, and almost always against Goblins; Akroma is a bomb against 4C Landstill that also outfights Tombstalkers.

The Pyroclasms in the SB are supposed to send the Goblins matchup into total overkill mode, since I think it's the most difficult one among the Big Threes; for them I sacrificed the usual Spree/Crypt slots, which I don't expect to need much. I wonder, though, if I could make a better use of these slots; if I found another card that helps other matchups while also improving Goblins, I could be content with running that plus 4 Pyrokinesis. Maybe I could play Earthquakes instead, which double as a burn spell?

For the time being, the boarding plans are:

4C Landeed:
-3 Jitte
-2 Mauler
+1 Akroma
+4 Needle

Generic UGW/UGR Thresh:
+3 Trinisphere
-1 Slogger
-1 Akroma
-1 Jitte

Goblins:
+4 Pyroclasm
+3 Pyrokinesis
-4 Blood Moon
-2 Magus of the Moon, -1 Akroma
On the draw, add: -4 Chalice of the Void, +4 Pithing Needle

Thoughts?

deviant

04-06-2008, 05:07 PM

I would go:
-1 Akroma
-1 Jitte
+2 Mauler

And then seriously reconsider would I feel comfortable enough with the maulers over sulfurs. Sulfurs were, for me at least, a mvp against every deck playing blue. Then again - when you drop a mauler 1st turn, and follow that with must-counter threats, you also win. (moons, dragons, sloggers, then they start to wonder if that mauler should have been forced after all.)

If I'd play maulers, I'd play them as a four-of, because that's one more card you want to draw in your opening hand. Not randomly topdeck. Also, a one-of akroma just brings awkward situations and rarely does anything more fancy than raiders-impersonation.

The sb does NOT appeal to me at all however.
Seriously, Akroma does not outclass sulfur. Either one can't be countered, and against landstill you should try to put pressure on them and win as fast as possible and not wait the topdeck akroma. At first I thought it would give us a resemblance of late-game, but why bother?
And there will be ww, breakfast and whatnot if it's over 100 people tournament.

In a competitive meta, which can present any competitive deck, I'd go with:
1 jitte (assuming only 2 main)
2-3 Trinisphere
4 Needle
3-4 Pyrokinesis
3 Crypt (maybe, maybe not. This is the debatable slot imo)

But the more I think of this, the more I think these are preference-calls more than "optimal list"-things. If there will be a lot of goblins, then maybe mauler will shine, but then I'd try and put something in my sb that improves my landstill mu's. And I don't think Akroma makes the cut. Pyroblast maybe? Propably not.
Seems stupid to sb sulfurs.. and I'm really averse to Akroma.

Tacosnape

04-06-2008, 10:31 PM

Assuming your 4C Landstill opponents have absolutely completely no way out to a resolved Moon Effect, you may actually want to board in your Trinispheres, if not in all matchups then at least on the play. Dropping a Trinisphere with your opponent having one land or less makes them spend a Force on it, or you'll be able to drop Magus/Blood Moon unimpeded on the next turn and pick up the win.

If any of them pack Disk or a basic Plains, however, I wouldn't do this, as Trinisphere's only purpose in this matchup is to make sure your Moons resolve.

Also, no graveyard hate, at all? That's...dangerous. I love the concept of having both Pyrokinesis and Pyroclasm (You'll demolish Goblins and 'Clasm will make your ETW-packing Combo match fantastic), but Crypt helps against so much random crap. It's great against Ichorid and Cephalid Breakfast, and Moon-boarding Aggro Loam's pretty tough without Crypts keeping things sane.

TrialByFire

04-06-2008, 11:15 PM

I am taking this list to a basically unknown metagame. What do you guys think?

// Lands
10 [MR] Mountain (4)
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
4 [MOR] Taurean Mauler
4 [MR] Arc-Slogger
4 [DIS] Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 [FUT] Gathan Raiders
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide

// Spells
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
3 [DK] Blood Moon
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [MR] Seething Song
4 [MR] Chrome Mox

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 4 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [AL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 4 [10E] Pithing Needle

I don't know how I feel about that sideboard, but the only thing I feel like I could use over any of those cards are Powder Keg or Shattering Spree. The only artifact I can think of that can't be Needled that I lose to is Dreadnought, and I don't really know what I do about a resolved Tarmogoyf. I was thinking I just hope to Moon them before that happens, but I don't have much experience with this deck. What do you guys think?

Tacosnape

04-07-2008, 01:04 AM

I like it. Simple, effective.

If Dreadnought is actually to the point where it's scary enough to metagame against then Legacy's pretty weird, but it is worth noticing that Chalice-1 is the obvious shutdown for it. Shattering Spree out of the board would be solid, too.

The less obvious but infinitely cooler solution is to stick a Jitte on a Hellbent Pit Dragon and swing. If they Block, Dragon hits for three, pumps to 7/7, hits for 7, then uses the last two Jitte counters to eat the Dreadnought. If not, you outrace the Dreadnought.

As for Goyf, just outrace him. Or double/triple Slog him, on occasion.

deviant

04-07-2008, 02:18 AM

If the metagame is totally unknown, I'd play Sulfurs over Maulers.
And the 8th moon.

It's up to you if you take out the 4th sulfur (play four maulers though if you prefer them) or the third Jitte or something else.

Do not, however, change the sb. It's solid.
The only, only card you should consider changing, is +1 jitte if you decide to only play two maindeck.
I do not, however, know if this is advisable. Probably my aversion to the card talking..
This would weaken the sb too. So I'd play three sulfurs and three jittes and let the sb be.

TrialByFire

04-07-2008, 02:41 PM

Thanks guys, this will be my first tournament playing Dragon Stompy, I wanted to try out something different after 4+ months of playing White Thresh. At least I'll have a good idea of what's going on in those matchups. I'm going to be testing all week and I'll figure out if I like Maulers or Sulfur better. I think I would rather have Mauler every time except if there is a significant prescence at the tourney by Breakfast and Death + Taxes. Other than those two matchups, I would rather have Mauler. It is a must counter turn 1 against blue decks, and has often paved the way for a turn 2 Moon or a turn 1 follow-up Moon after a Seething Song.

EDIT: @Taco, completely forgot about Chalice at 1 destroying Dreadnought. I was going to try and make room for a couple Shattering Sprees in the board, but after testing about 10 matches so far, it seems they haven't even been needed. I find myself sometimes wanting Powder Keg for Mongeese and Goyf, but hopefully I should have Moon down faster than they can come out, or be able to race them with Dragon/Slogger.

overseer1234

04-07-2008, 04:32 PM

I'm having trouble with loam decks lately, mainly terranova builds, is anyone else having trouble with this matchup? What do I side out for the needle's and the crypt's?

TrialByFire

04-07-2008, 04:43 PM

Im pretty sure you side out Jitte because it is less than useful, but not sure what else. These are the things I need to get the feel for before this weekend.

Tacosnape

04-07-2008, 05:17 PM

Aggro Loam is a pain. Period. It's not exactly Enchantress bad, but it's not a match Dragon Stompy wants to see.

I'm not sure exactly what a Terranova build is, but if it's anything like the Aggro Loam I'm accustomed to facing (Straight R/G with Moons in board), then you board out everything remotely related to a Moon. (You have to make this decision based on how much Moon hurts them, but I find it usually doesn't.) Boarding out Jitte's also an option, because while an active Jitte can be awesome against the deck, you really really really want to get a Chalice for 2 to stop Loam, Tarmogoyf, Burning Wish, and Devastating Dreams. You want Tormod's Crypt and you want Pyrokinesis, and Pithing Needle can be necessary to keep Seismic Assault under control.

Dealing with Terravore and Countryside Crusher is really annoying, too. Crypt keeps Vore and Goyf in manageable territory, but you can't do a lot with Crusher besides Pyrokinesising the bajesus out of him before he can get out of control.

Also, if you expect to deal with a lot of Aggro Loam, reconsider Sword of Fire and Ice as being playable. It's pretty good in this matchup.

EDIT: Also, keep in mind that situationally you'll want to Chalice for 3 against this deck if you can do it fast enough, especially if you're boarding out Magus. That means Chal-3 only shuts down a maximum of four cards in your deck (Sulfur/Mauler/Whatever). Shutting off Terravore, Crusher, and Grip (If they run it) can help a lot, and Chalices at both 2 and 3 is fantastic.

overseer1234

04-07-2008, 05:34 PM

This is the deck I'm talking about:
4# Thoughtseize
4# Swords to Plowshares
2# Pernicious Deed
2# Engineered Explosives
4# Life from the Loam
(16)

3# Terravore
4# Dark Confidant
2# Wild Mongrel
2# Eternal Witness
4# Tarmogoyf
(15)

4# Tranquil Thicket
3# Bayou
4# Wasteland
1# Barren Moor
1# Volrath’s Stronghold
1# Scrubland
4# Mox Diamond
2# Polluted Delta
4# Windswept Heath
1# Forest
1# Swamp
3# Savannah
(25+4)

Sideboard:
3# Extirpate
3# Umezawa’s Jitte
2# Tormod’s Crypt
3# Krosan Grip
3# Duress
1# Pernicious Deed
(15)

Basicly terrageddon without armageddon

This deck is really a pain, and while on paper they should be crippled by a moon, however in testing I find to get myself whooped pretty bad, as soon as they find green mana and a mox... And after side it doesn't get much better with grip's, extra deed/'s and jitte...

TheKingslayer

04-07-2008, 07:30 PM

So, I was thinking about picking this deck up, because it seems pretty fun. Would anyone be willing to post some matchups though? The front page seems just a bit outdated.

sdsickboy86

04-07-2008, 08:21 PM

new to the deck...been trying to catch up on the forums, was wondering what you guys thought of this guy
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=68837&d=1207282361

he seems to be a great cheap beatstick and can help get hellbent, only problems i see is the RR in his cost, and where he fits in the deck as a 4cc, which are small problems, the biggest problem would be losing something good like a moon or a chalice

let me know what ya think

Sanguine Voyeur

04-07-2008, 08:23 PM

It doesn't seem to be any better then any of the cards currently played. It's not better then any of the three drops, Pit Dragon, or Arc-Slogger.

TrialByFire

04-07-2008, 08:59 PM

he seems to be a great cheap beatstick and can help get hellbent, only problems i see is the RR in his cost, and where he fits in the deck as a 4cc, which are big problems, the biggest problem would be losing something good like a moon or a chalice
let me know what ya think

There's your answer

Maagler

04-07-2008, 09:24 PM

Firespout 2{rg}
Sorcery Uncommon
Firespout deals 3 damage to each creature without flying if {R} was spent to play Firespout and 3 damage to each creature with flying if {G} was spent to play Firespout. (If {G} & {R} is spent, do both.)

I think this may be better than pyroclasm. Thoughts?

Jak

04-07-2008, 09:58 PM

Kills most of your creatures...

ChillerKiller0815

04-08-2008, 06:48 AM

Two weeks ago I placed 6th because I lost against a Burn deck that played ensnaring bridge and I had no solution MD or in the SB. The other deck I lost was against Geddonstaxx. Every Game I won was 2-0 I always Lost 1-2 so both matches were close. I am thinking to play with a Sb like this next time:

4 Needle
3 Crypt
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Trinisphere
2 Shattering Spree

Only 2 Sprees because there is hardly a threat that needs to be handled early in the game.

Thoughts??? Simular experiences???

Zork

04-08-2008, 12:49 PM

Kills most of your creatures...

So does pyroclasm. The real reason this should not be included is because the only things it does that pyroclasm does not is kill mongoose and countryside crusher. Killing mongoose is irrelevant because you have much better things to board in vs. thresh, and pyrokinesis is much better against loam anyway.

So I guess if you are expecting floods of aggro-loam such that you would play both pyrokinesis and clasm, consider this spell.

Jak

04-08-2008, 08:45 PM

So does pyroclasm. The real reason this should not be included is because the only things it does that pyroclasm does not is kill mongoose and countryside crusher. Killing mongoose is irrelevant because you have much better things to board in vs. thresh, and pyrokinesis is much better against loam anyway.

So I guess if you are expecting floods of aggro-loam such that you would play both pyrokinesis and clasm, consider this spell.

Pyroclasm was cut because of that and Dragon Stompy beats Goblins anyway. It does kill Goose, which is nice, but I wouldn't cut Pyrokinesis for it.

NecroYawgmoth

04-10-2008, 10:31 AM

Yeah, I just found this guy here on mtgsalvation...

What do you think???

Deus of Calamity {rg}{rg}{rg}{rg}{rg}
Creature - Spirit Avatar Rare
Trample
Whenever Deus of Calamity deals 6 or more damage to an opponent, destroy target land that player controls.
"He bears the marks of ages upon his skin, memories of dreams long dead and best left buried." -The Seer's Parables
Illus. Todd Lockwood #204/301 6/6

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=69267&d=1207765114

Could he fit in the Slogger Slot or something else???

MfG Yawg

Arsenal

04-10-2008, 10:37 AM

The casting cost is too prohibitive (Seething Song is the only realistic way of casting this guy), we already have 90% of the meta on mana-lockdown with 8 Moon effects (rendering their lands useless anyway), and Slogger can deal just as much damage (w/ the assistance of his ability) over 4 turns.

mercenarybdu

04-12-2008, 02:11 AM

That is an awesome creture to make a large dent on any control player that can't deal with the big guy with Trample and a chance of knocking down lands in it's wake.

I'll put that on my needs list in addition to making some adjustments to my existing plans.

Tacosnape

04-12-2008, 03:39 AM

You're joking, right?

5 colored mana for a 6/6 is bad in Legacy, period. It's especially bad on a creature that has absolutely no use until he actually hits an opponent, and it's especially bad in a deck where he's only getting cast off Seething Song or, rarely, off lands with a Moon effect in play.

Arsenal's right. Slogger can kill an opponent a turn faster than this guy, Slogger takes down opposing threats, and Slogger is easier to cast. This guy doesn't make the cut.

overseer1234

04-12-2008, 11:51 AM

deviant

04-12-2008, 12:32 PM

I'm off to a tournament tomorow with +/- 50 people expected and the following list:

Main Deck:
4x City of Traitors
4x Ancient Tomb
10x Snow-Covered Mountain
4x Chrome Mox
4x Seething Song

4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Arc-Slogger
4x Rakdos Pit Dragon
4x Gathan raiders
4x Magus of the Moon
3x Sulfur Elemental
1x Akroma, Angel of Furry (Could be replaced by a 4th sulfur or I could cut a slogger for the 4th sulfur...)

3x Blood Moon
3x Umezawa's Jitte
4x Chalice of the Void

Sideboard:
1x Blood Moon (Trying to get 4 in the main but I'm not sure what to cut, propably the akroma or a sulfur...)
3x Tormod's crypt (If I mannage to get the extra moon in the main I'll up this one to 4)
4x Pyrokinesis
3x Triinisphere
4x Pithing Neelde

Somme advice is welcome because I dont realy know what the metagame will be...

About the list:
The thing I'm most concerned with is snow-covered mountains. You really should play something better looking.
No, really, the list is just fine. I would ditch the bitch and move the BM md. Then play the fourth crypt.
That would be only one card off of my preferred list, and exactly the list I'd take to a "meta-blind" tournament.

Have fun and good luck.

overseer1234

04-12-2008, 02:37 PM

About the list:
The thing I'm most concerned with is snow-covered mountains. You really should play something better looking.

LOL :laugh: But it's just because they all have the same art, and to play Jedi mind trick's so my opponent may expect some cards I don't play :cool: .

I would ditch the bitch and move the BM md. Then play the fourth crypt.
That would be only one card off of my preferred list, and exactly the list I'd take to a "meta-blind" tournament.

OK so I'll ditch the bitch, but what's that 1 card that I'm off than?

Thank's, and If I find the time I'll post a report.

deviant

04-13-2008, 06:52 AM

I played only 2 jittes main (4 sulfurs), and one in the sb. Only 3 pyros to make room for the jitte.
This, however, is not optimal I think. It's just the way I prefer to play - I hate to see multiple jittes and no threats and in my control-heavy meta those jittes really do not get to shine.

Also, I think that 3 jittes is the optimal number if meta-knowledge does not tell you otherwise.

overseer1234

04-13-2008, 03:01 PM

I just got bacvk vrom the tournament and ended 18th out of 57 players going 4-2
1st round lost against a random mono green deck with ice storm thermokarst and other 3 mana landkill cards (yep, we die to random yank, and because this guy loses every other match my resistance sucks bigtime)

2nd round won against a rock like deck, however not deadguy rock, just some BG midrange control I guess... Ohw and he did play terravore and loam...

3rd round won against ichorid (a win that i forces more on the back of trinisphere than on tormod's crypt...)

4th round lost against agro loam (goddamn lucker, has answers to everything I throw at him, including 2 chalice for 2...)

5th round win against red ******** (chalice and trini shine :D)

6th round i win against TES (he steals game 1 ass I find myself screwed after a chalice for 1, 2nd en 3rd game go like trini+moon/chalice for 0/1...)

Clark Kant

04-13-2008, 04:16 PM

Rosheen the Erratic Meanderer (stupid french translation) 3R
Legendary Creature - Giant Shaman R
Tap: Add 4 to your mana pool. Use this mana only to pay for costs containing X.
Each night, Rosheen stammered something about a world bathing in the sun, which everyone thought as a fool's divagations.
Aleksi Briclot 4/4

I think he could fit well into this deck. A 4/4 for 3R without a drawback in red seems solid.

Plus, his ability can be used to pay for both Demonfire, and Chalice of the Void. That's great tempo.

Sanguine Voyeur

04-13-2008, 04:26 PM

I think he could fit well into this deck. A 4/4 for 3R without a drawback in red seems solid.The deck's current four drop, Rakdos Pit Dragon is better then "solid." Demonfire isn't popularly run due to it's speed and if you need Chalice at two, it's probably a better idea to drop it before this. Seems worse then Thran Dynamo.

TheKingslayer

04-14-2008, 10:40 PM

So, Taco, I was thinking of picking this deck up and I was reading through the forums and came across defense grid. I didn't notice a conclusion on it. The last thing I noticed you talking about to improve the landstill and MUC matchups was leyline of the life force(which seems illogical to me as it could potentially be a topdeck while you are attempting to gain hellbent.) Did defense grid help pave the way against these two control decks at all?

phatJacob07

04-20-2008, 06:45 PM

I know it's not any time soon, but I've got a Legacy event coming up in a couple of months (June), and I was planning on running Dragon Stompy. The metagame is pretty heavily Goblins as far as I know, with the rest unknown (except a random Death and Taxes), so I was wondering how this build looks.

10x Mountain
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
4x Chrome Mox

4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Magus of the Moon
4x Gathan Raiders
4x Rakdos Pit Dragon
3x Arc Slogger
2x Akroma, Angel of the Red One
2x Sulfur Elemental

4x Seething Song
3x Blood Moon

3x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
4x Chalice of the Void

----SB----
4x Pithing Needle
4x Tormod's Crypt
4x Pyrokinesis
3x Trinisphere

Fairly standard as far as I know; I was considering main-deck FTK, due to predicted amount of aggro, but I'm not sure.

mercenarybdu

04-20-2008, 07:01 PM

Run some Pyroclasm in the SB to fight those guys off, drop the blood moons and put in more big guys. They won't be able to handle the big creatures anyway unless they splash for either white or black.

Suguru

04-27-2008, 06:53 AM

Here is my report of the second time I played Dragon Stompy in a tournament.
Placed finallist (we decided to pact the final).
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=227787#post227787

Here is the list:

Mana acceleration:
4x Seething Song
4x Chrome Mox
4x Simian Spirit Guide

Lock:
4x Chalice of the Void
2x Blood Moon
4x Magus of the Moon

Creatures:
4x Rakdos Pit Dragon
4x Arc-Slogger
4x Gathan Raiders
3x Sulfur Elemental
1x Akroma Angel of Fury

Equipment:
2x Umezawa Jitte
2x Sword of Fire and Ice

Land:
10x Mountain
4x City of Traitors
4x Ancient Tomb
SB:
4x Pyrokinesis
3x Pithing Needle
3x Trinisphere
3x Tormod’s Crypt
1x Blood Moon
1x Sulfur Elemental

I finally decided to play without the Trinispheres, and I didn't miss them much.
I played an Akroma because in my metagame there is a hateful Rifter (I played against that deck the last tournament and I missed a huge creature to face Eternal Dragon and/or protection from white).
I finally decided not to try Demnofire, but I am seriously considering testing Shivan Wumpus.
The bad thing it has is its 4 mana cost (1 more than Sulfur Elemental). The good thing is he doesn't need RR to be played.
BUT here comes the discussion: Sulfur Elemental showed itself a rather good card, specially for the Flash ability, and RPD may run quite easily out of Hellbent, so how about trying to replace RPD for Shivan Wumpus?

Maybe I will try this in a further tournament.

Willoe

04-27-2008, 07:34 AM

That would in my opinion be the stupidest thing to do. Shivan Wumpus is only a RPD with Hellbent. The sweet thing about RPD is that it can be flying or on the ground, and it can be pumped.

Consider a RPD without hellbent. It's a Shivan Wumpus with an upkeep cost of RRR.

Shivan Wumpus is a RPD with Hellbent and nothing else, except for the six toughness, and it has a major drawback that can cost you the game. I don't even like to think about all the games you can lose because of a land sacrifice.

So RPD >>> Shivan Wumpus.

Sulfur Elemental is a pretty good creature, but I'd rather run Taurean Mauler. That really gives you a buttkicker against a lot of archetypes.
Other than Decree of Justice tokens, which very, very annoying things does Sulfur Elemental really hose? I haven't ever tested it extensively, but I do have an idea of its strengths and weaknesses.

Also, making Death and Taxes even more deadly does not sound like a good idea. A 3/1 Isamaru is not fun :/

deviant

04-27-2008, 08:22 AM

Umm..

You know the deck called Cephalid Breakfast?
They, for one, really don't like to see sulfur elementals.

And about rpd. He swings for 14-18 so easily it's not even funny. He is the best topdeck when the initial assault has been dealt with. (barring low life-totals when almost anything can get there, then slogger for direct dmg and uncounterable sulfurs are better)

And I don't think giving your opponent timewalks for their useless nonbasic mountains is a good trade.

NQN

04-27-2008, 08:23 AM

Btw NEVER play snow covered lands if it isn´t neccesary! I once lost a game because of a LD spell which destroys a land and gives the Opp 3 Life if that land was snow-covered...

Sanguine Voyeur

04-27-2008, 09:29 AM

Other than Decree of Justice tokens, which very, very annoying things does Sulfur Elemental really hose?Sulpher Elemental is good against Breakfast, as mentioned, but it's more importantly good against decks with blue. The abiliby to say, "I have a 3/2 now" with out any question makes it good. It can also serve as a suprise blocker and psudo removal.

By the way, I took a modest ninth (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9302) at a Hadley thing a week ago, if anyone's interested.

Willoe

04-27-2008, 12:17 PM

Oh yeah, forgot about Breakfast. I never see it in my meta, so it's irrelevant for me. And on MWS, it hasn't been sulfur elemental that killed the breakfast player the times I won. It was Arc-Slogger.

Clark Kant

04-28-2008, 05:31 PM

I think Flametoungue Kavu could be a very strong sideboard choice here.

Any takers?

Sanguine Voyeur

04-28-2008, 05:36 PM

Flametounge Kavu was used before Tarmogoyf was printed. What does he bring to the table now that's more valuable then current sideboard cards?

Pithing Needle is too valuable against difficult match ups.
Crypt is too good against graveyard decks, most importantly Ichorid.
Trinisphere can out right win against storm combo and buy enough time against Thresh.
Pyrokinesis is good against both aggro and creature based combo.

Clark Kant

04-28-2008, 05:48 PM

I am just throwing the idea out there. If the card has already been tested as a sideboard option against black based aggro, Fairie Stompy and all sorts of random aggro, feel free to ignore me.

But couldn't it replace Pyrokinesis. The main nongoyf creatures that see play are Fairie Stompy's Flyers and Sui Blacks Dudes. FTK still 2 for 1 against either of these two decks as well as all sorts of other randomness (affinity etc). You already have enough tools against Matron Storm decks, and Cephalid Breakfast seems to have fallen out of flavor. So I'm not positive Pyro is superior to FTK.

But if you don't want to replace Pyrokinesis could you make due playing three of each of the cards you listed along with 3 FTK?

I was just wondering if the card has been tested recently at all by anyone.

bladewing019

04-28-2008, 06:03 PM

I was just wondering if the card has been tested recently at all by anyone.

Flametounge Kavu was used before Tarmogoyf was printed.

As for the rest, Pyrokinesis is free, instant speed, and is better against things like Goblins. 4 mana is a lot, especially for a creature that gets its ass kicked by Goyf.

Clark Kant

04-28-2008, 06:12 PM

Kuma

04-28-2008, 06:18 PM

I guess FTK is a decent sideboard option if your meta has no graveyard-based decks, no thresh, and no combo. But you should already be stomping MBA, and I don't see what matchups FTK improves that aren't already awesome except for other chalice aggro.

Clark Kant

04-28-2008, 06:22 PM

Well, FTK would be replacing Pyrokinesis.

How is Pyrokinesis good against Thresh? You will be siding in Trinispheres, versus thresh, but I see no reason to side in Pyrokinesis.

You already have a lot of options against Matron based combo, Chalice, Trinisphere etc.

Happy Gilmore

04-28-2008, 06:32 PM

How many ppl have been testing Akroma, AoF in this deck? The card is the stone cold nuts. This deck has can easily get the 8 mana to hard cast Akroma and has no issues with the morph cost most of the time. Seathing Songs becomes even more threatening with Akroma's inclusion (uncounterability is lete). Its morph cost can be played as early as turn 2, and best of all , your opponent wont know if your playing a Gathan Raiders or an Akroma ;). If you can generate enough mana to abuse dragon, instead cast a creature that is practically unkillable, has trample, and unconterable IMO.

b4r0n

04-28-2008, 06:38 PM

FTK 2 for 1s your opponent (you take out two creatures for the price of one card).
Pyrokinesis 2 for 1s yourself (you lose two cards to take out one creature usually).

Seriously? Do you honestly think that card advantage is a driving force behind Dragon Stompy? The entire premise behind the deck is speed and power, not long term card advantage. Every time you play a Seething Song, pitch a Simian Spirit Guide, imprint on a Chrome Mox, or flip a Gathan Raider, you 2 for 1 yourself. It's not about losing cards. It's about the effect that you're able to achieve. Along those lines, the ability to play free, versatile removal at instant speed is a lot more important than getting a 4/2 body. It's foolish to evaluate FTK and Pyrokinesis solely in terms of card advantage when there are clearly more important factors involved.

Also, what in the world is "Matron based combo"?

Clark Kant

04-28-2008, 06:39 PM

Kuma

04-28-2008, 07:34 PM

I was thinking of FTK as a replacement for Tormod's Crypt or Trinisphere. Pyrokinesis is just too good to cut from the sideboard. Helps you get hellbent and kills multiple guys. I wouldn't cut it for FTK.

n00bas4urus_r3x

04-28-2008, 08:05 PM

I really like Akroma from my testing with her. I only play one at the moment, so she doesn't show up too often. When she does however, it's gg. She has proSTP which is huge obviously, and she is very playable off of Seething Songs and other accel. First turn morph into second turn Akroma off of a Song continues to be a jaw dropper. A lot of people don't expect her as well, so you can easily play that into your advantage. I don't think I'd go over 2 however because she is very mana intensive.

scrumdogg

04-28-2008, 08:24 PM

It's removal plus a solid clock that your opponent is forced to answer. Your F. Stompy opponent trading a second creature with FTK at the very least means they can't use that creature to chump block your Pit Dragon.

I meant Warrens based combo.

As for Akroma, I don't know, it eats up two turns to cast, and even then is significantly harder to unmorph than any of your other creatures.

And it's not even that fast of a clock really.

Faerie Stompy...yeah that sees widespread play. Assuming your F. Stompy opponent (all one of them, if they show up) doesn't have their critter equipped with Sword of Pro-FTK or Jitte, you might actually hit them. 2-1-ing them is pure fantasy, of course, since they will equip someone with either of the 'oops I fly & then shank FTK' equipments but you deal much better in deck fantasy than reality anyway. The point of a SB is to answer weaknesses of the maindeck - FTK does not do this effectively enough, which you might have realized had you read the thread.

Akroma has been very good to me as a 2 of. It has allowed me to win games versus blue based decks that I have no business winning (ask the Dreadstill guy from Hadley) :cool: as well as sucking out a removal when I would rather Gathan Riaders resolve. As for it being a slow clock, 3 turns is slow why? That's faster than Goyf most of the time, which a reasonable modern standard.

bladewing019

04-28-2008, 08:46 PM

I guess my point is, when you are talking about versus Fairie Stompy or Black based aggro...

FTK 2 for 1s your opponent (you take out two creatures for the price of one card).
Pyrokinesis 2 for 1s yourself (you lose two cards to take out one creature usually).

Do you realize that black based aggro runs a bunch of things with low toughness, like Confidant and Shade? You can pretty easily get 2 creatures with a Pyrokinesis.

I thought it was general consensus that Sulfur Elemental > Akroma.

FoolofaTook

04-28-2008, 10:01 PM

Has any attempt been made to fatten Dragon Stompy by removing some of the acceleration for additional 3cc disruption?

The topdeck problem if the opponent manages your first disruption and threat is really an issue. For me at least this has been due to the great chance of drawing unnecessary acceleration and not seeing another threat for several turns.

Zork

04-28-2008, 10:34 PM

I occasionally board out acceleration against decks where disruption is stronger, but maindeck I would only do it in a really combo-heavy meta and all I would do is cut maybe one song and/or a SSG (along with something else non-accel).

DrewliusMaximus

04-28-2008, 11:05 PM

Just because its more fun playing R'Akromas, I tried playing this build casually for a few games:

10 Mountain
4 City
4 Tomb
4 Mox
1 Lotus Petal
4 SSG

4 Chalice
4 Blood Moon
4 Magus

2 Blazing Shoal
4 Seething Song

4 Gathan Raiders
4 RPD
4 Slogger
3 Akroma

Probably not as solid as with Jittes, but the Shoals do help hellbent and abuse Akroma's (and Slogger's) cc from time to time (and are red). Adding two red cards also made me more comfortable trying a single Lotus Petal to tip balance a little towards mana production so that playing Akroma would happen a little more often.

Still, it was fun playing for a couple of games.

Nihil Credo

04-28-2008, 11:51 PM

So, I had a decent showing, getting 14th place out of 94 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=228313) at the tournament I mentioned earlier. Here's my thoughts on the deck after these weeks of testing and the tournament itself:

1) This deck seems to get more consistent (and fun!) the more you practice it. When I first tried the deck mostly because of budget concerns, I was mildly annoyed at all the one-trick-pony games I was playing. With time, I discovered how the optimal opening was not nearly as obvious as it seemed - in particular, it takes a while to gauge when it is appropriate to just slowroll your threats. Doing so drastically improves your mulligan rate, too.

Also, as can be seen in the report, being in an actual tournaments and getting all sorts of hints as to what you are playing (from actual scouting to off-hand remarks) can be decisive to your play.

2) Akroma is completely worth a slot in the maindeck. What she's got to offer over Mauler and Elemental is instrumental in pulling you out of many, many no-win situations (Landstill, anyone?), whereas it's much less likely that having a Grey Ogre rather than a 3/2 or a Mauler loses you the game. I think the second copy is only appropriate in a fairly slow metagame, and is probably best in the sideboard, but I'm recommending the first one to basically anyone.

3) Mauler kicks the shit out of Sulfur Elemental. Simply put, I've had Maulers countered several times; if our favourite 3/2 didn't have Split Second, it would only get countered once in a blue moon.

After some time playing with Mauler, the arguments in favour of Sulfur Elemental seem incredibly weak: it hits DoJ tokens? Mauler is much better at not letting them stabilize to the point of cycling DoJ for 3+. It kills en-Kor dudes? Aside from how little play that deck sees nowadays, you have So. Many. Ways to stop them from going off - especially postboard, when literally everything hurts them. It surprise-blocks Mongoose? Which one would you rather have against Threshold in the first place - and more importantly, how often do you want to block in the first place?

The vast majority of times Mauler is a blank, Sulfur is too. If the opponent can shrug off a 2/2 without playing a single spell, there are good chances they could shrug off a 3/2 as well. Even against a 3/3 Mongoose, if it's late in the game, they probably can't attack without you winning the race despite having a smaller creature - and that's if they don't cast any more spells.

4) Jitte is awful every time it isn't a life-saver. I honestly don't know what to do of this card; it's hurting the deck's consistency more than any other slot (Slogger and Akroma included), but cutting it would not be an improvement for any metagame with a honest Red presence. I'm strongly considering putting it in the SB for my next tournament, which theoretically should feature a comboish meta. Or perhaps I'll try Sword of Light and Shadow, which at least does something against control.

b4r0n

04-30-2008, 05:09 AM

Congratulations on the finish, and great report! In response to your points:

1) Just out of curiosity, do you have any examples of this? I'd be interested in hearing some of the non-obvious plays you encountered.

2) I can understand why people would want Akroma due to the outs that she provides, but in my experience, she seems too hard to cast or even flip. I assume that you didn't find that to be the case.

3) The more I play with the deck, the more I agree: overall, Mauler is generally better than the Elemental. Unless you're playing lots and lots of Breakfast and Landstill, Mauler is stronger.

4) How did you find Jitte to be awful, and how would Sword of Light and Shadow be any better? I've found Jitte to be amazing in almost every matchup, and would never cut it.

Nihil Credo

04-30-2008, 08:04 PM

1) Just out of curiosity, do you have any examples of this? I'd be interested in hearing some of the non-obvious plays you encountered.

There aren't many actual tricks with the deck - one time I cast Slogger a turn later so I could pitch SSG to it and surprise-trade with Goyf, and that's about the most sneaky it's ever gotten (if you don't count stuff like bluffing your opponent to not block Pit-Dragon while both your cards in hand are Songs or apes).

By 'non-obvious', I mean that you learn to tailor the explosiveness to the opponent you're facing. For example, Eva Green is short on removal, runs discard, and has a tendency to drop very early Tombstalkers, so the absolute priority is to put that fat on the table ASAP, pitching with total abandon (exception: turn 1 Chalice on the play, if Wasteland doesn't rape you). Against Thresh, it's generally much better to play conservatively, saving SSG as Daze protection - unless they've got a three-creature opener, or play Thoughtseize.

4) How did you find Jitte to be awful, and how would Sword of Light and Shadow be any better? I've found Jitte to be amazing in almost every matchup, and would never cut it.Awful in the "oh great, I've spent four mana and my two-turn clock is still a two-turn clock, and just as vulnerable" way. Killing creatures off with Jitte counters was a fairly uncommon occurrence in both testing and tournament; it tends to only happen when I find myself without any of the 13 fatties, which rule the combat phase without need for equipment.

I'm interested in try out Sword of Light and Shadow because 1) against aggro, I was primarily using Jitte to win life races anyway and 2) against control, SoLaS should give me the same damage bonus of Jitte over two turns but also provide protection from spot removal and recur threats in case the opponent topdecks a sweeper. Not having to pick between losing Hellbent and losing two cards should also be a very minor, but very welcome side benefit.

mercenarybdu

05-02-2008, 03:10 AM

Although Jitte has been a part of the deck, I find that the Swords have given the players the edge most of the time due to the stable boosts that it out fits the creatures in most situations.

Clark Kant

05-03-2008, 07:19 PM

Stooghenstein

05-03-2008, 08:04 PM

How did you find Jitte to be awful, and how would Sword of Light and Shadow be any better? I've found Jitte to be amazing in almost every matchup, and would never cut it.

From experience I can see the answer to this being situational, In a more drawn out game I would lean more towards Sword of Light and Shadow for the regain of creatures and life, that will more then likely lead to vicotry along with the pro stp your creature gains, In the aggro matchup Id be in favor of Jitte because the ability to pick off creatures is probably key assuming you aren't holding them back with trinishpere and chalice.

mercenarybdu

05-03-2008, 11:06 PM

With so many over powered creatures, Lightning Greaves could work.

You can play it turn one off an Ancient Tomb, and it will later on give your pit dragon haste (killing them one turn faster). and will protect it from removal

excellent plan, but then you have to make sure out always have a mammoth to dishout the next turn to make it worth the effort.

Sanguine Voyeur

05-03-2008, 11:17 PM

With so many over powered creatures, Lightning Greaves could work.It's not a threat on its own, it's not powerful disruption, it doesn't have as big as an impact as any other equipment.

Seems to have no redeeming qualities.

revenge_inc

05-03-2008, 11:49 PM

With so many over powered creatures, Lightning Greaves could work.
It is also poor in multiples as it is meant to be moved around. I guess it could be OK as a 1-of, but I really don't see what you would want to cut.

Jak

05-03-2008, 11:53 PM

Seems horrible. I hate running 4 equipment cards because they just suck when you can't draw a threat, but they are just too good against aggro and the life gain is needed. This just doesn't do anything. What would you cut? Lists are tight.

Zork

05-04-2008, 08:54 PM

Lightning greaves is awful. Pit Dragon is usually not a creature you want to swing with the turn it comes into play, as it is often not hellbent and you really won't have th mana to make it fly. Considering they can kill the creature in response to equip... (same reason I don't believe in SoLS vs. StP)

I'd much rather have something that makes bad creatures into threats than something that makes bombs bombier.

Jak

05-04-2008, 09:09 PM

Want to bump this thread with some discussion. I have changed my list a bit and have been liking it.

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
9 Mountain
1 Zoetic Cavern

4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Blood Moon
3 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Shadow / Fire and Ice

4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Arc Slogger
2 Akroma, Angel of Fury

Cavern has been pretty nice. Draw back has never been a problem and morphing it is just fun. I still have been liking Akroma. Been going back and forth between it and Sulfur, but it is just so much better against Landstill and it is fun to morph. I love the tricks it allows.

My SB is kind of all over the place.

3 Winter Orb / Pithing Needle
2 Trinisphere
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Anarchy
4 Pyroclasm

I like Winter Orb over Pithing Needle because of decks like MWC. I go back and forth between them.

Tacosnape

05-05-2008, 12:52 AM

Okay, for the 500th time?

Run Four Pithing Needle.

Seriously. I would run about nine in board if it were legal to do so. Needle wins you so many matches and it's still good against mono-anything control. You have absolutely no way in this deck to deal with artifacts, enchantments, and certain other activated abilities that just wreck you. Needle wins.

Jak

05-05-2008, 01:56 AM

Jujuhawk

05-05-2008, 02:39 AM

So does this deck basically just get crushed by bad draws, solidarity, and crush everything else? I proxied it up and I'm considering playing it at a lotus tourney in june.

THEchubbymuffin

05-05-2008, 03:07 AM

Bahamuth

05-05-2008, 04:07 AM

How would it be bad against solidarity? I just think that somehow solidarity would have issues with chalice at 1. or a trinisphere. Even if it was horrible against solidarity, nobody really plays it anymore to my knowledge.

Solidarity can simple counter your threat, giving you almost no clock. This gives the Solidarity player plenty of time to get answers for those artifacts. Solidarity can also win trough both Chalice 1 and 3Sphere.

But yes indeed, no one ever plays Solidairty anymore, so that's just another positive thing for this deck.

Zork

05-05-2008, 04:11 AM

As probably the only man who has played this deck multiple times against high tide (spring tide though, which is actually faster than solidarity), I can say that it is a bad matchup for them. It basically comes down to how much disruption I draw and whether they have Force of Will. If I only get one piece and they have Force, its a little better for them, but I can still win.

Jujuhawk

05-05-2008, 12:34 PM

How would it be bad against solidarity? I just think that somehow solidarity would have issues with chalice at 1. or a trinisphere. Even if it was horrible against solidarity, nobody really plays it anymore to my knowledge.

There were 5 solidarity players at my last 1.5, and 2 made top 8. I saw dragon stompy play against 2 in a row and just lose horribly.

I'm pretty sure that if you're playing against a competent solidarity pilot you have almost no chance. Magus and moon are dead. Sphere can be bounced since you have no way to really resolve a clock if they draw a FoW. Same thing with chalice.

Taurelin

05-05-2008, 01:50 PM

I only played once against Dragon Stompy with Solidarity. I won quite easily 2:0. The thing is:

a) if the Dragon Stompy pilot aims for a quick win before Solidarity can assemble the combo pieces, it's easy to disrupt this strategy (1 well placed FoW vs a key creature, for example).

b) if the Dragon Stompy pilot aims for a more controllish path (Chalice, Trinisphere, even Magus :tongue: ), his clock becomes much slower and Solidarity has the opportunity to wish for solutions in time.

The games were like this:
G1 he has Chalice 1 + 2 and 2 Magi of the Moon beating down. I wish for Rebuild and combo off next turn.
G2 I force 1 1st turn Defense Grid, 2nd turn he has Chalice 1 again. A hellbent Pit Dragon beats me from 17 to 5, next turn it gets Echoing truthed and countered when cast again. After several turns of draw-go and a lonely Simian Spirit Guide attacking, I manage to wish for Rebuild and finish the game at 2 life.

From my perspective, I see the matchup highly in Solidarity's favour, as long as there is still Rebuild in the SB.