[Deck] Dragon Stompy

[Joe_C]

If you are playing against an opponent game 1, no idea of what they are playing, on the play. What is the better turn 1?

Chalice at 1
Trinisphere
Blood moon/Magus

[Kadaj]

That depends on the amount of mana available in your hand. I imagine that if you can play turn 1 Trinisphere and follow it up the next turn with chalice at 1, that that's the correct play. If you don't have enough mana for that, Trinisphere is still the correct lead-off card, followed by Magus instead of chalice.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Assuming you have three mana turn one, Tinisphere first. If it resolves, you'll have a better time landing the others. Moon next if your land was a City as Moon allows you to drop all three disruption pieces while playing land. If it's a Tomb and you're opponent plays a basic land that isn't a Forest, then Chalice. There are few, if any, mono green decks, so it's probably a splash color or Aggro Loam. If they lead with a dual, fetch, or other non-basic, play Moon second turn.

[Joe_C]

I felt 3sphere would normally be the strongest play against an unkown... Here is a little more puzzlings:

If you have a hand such: City/Magus/jitte/mox/ssg/Song/chalice

Against an unknown do you:

a: Lead with City, mox(imprint ssg), song, chalice, magus
b: Lead with City,mox(imprint ssg), song, magus, jitte
c: Lead with City, mox(imprint ssg), song, magus, chalice

How does the more experienced players with the deck feel about the qty of 3spheres main? Is 3 enough with 1 in the boad? Ive been playing with 3 trini, 3 blood moon main, and the extra of esach in the board. Im also running jitte, and akroma(playing the long game against control makes her huge and it is possible to morph her turn 2). Does equipment really have a home still?

[Kuma]

0 is the correct number of 3-spheres in the maindeck, unless your meta has no aggro and is mostly Thresh and combo. Otherwise I'd run three since it gives you a good chance of seeing one without too high a chance of seeing multiples.

Assuming this is turn one on the play, I'd do A since the number of decks wrecked by moon is higher than the number of decks wrecked by Chalice, and A means they're more likely to counter the Chalice instead of the moon.

[Mayk0l]

Does equipment really have a home still?

Jitte is still a House, regardless of the metagame. I loyally run 2 at all times, with the third in the sideboard (I hate drawing a second in Hellbent). Currently, there's nothing superior we're not running to play Jitte.

[Wallace]

Jitte is still a House, regardless of the metagame. I loyally run 2 at all times, with the third in the sideboard (I hate drawing a second in Hellbent). Currently, there's nothing superior we're not running to play Jitte.

I have to disagree, I run no Jitte's at all, MB or SB. To me that slot is better occupied by a dude. Jitte is a dead card with nothing to equip it to and really only improves a few match's.

3Sphere is really good against a lot of decks and while drawing a 2nd one can be a bitch, it's no worse than drawing a 2nd Jitte. Plus if you have to you can just play the 2nd sphere where as the only way to get rid of a 2nd Jitte is to discard it to Raiders or play it and blow up both equipment.

****The following suggestions are just that, suggestions, I am not stating these cards are auto includes in DS and still require more testing.****

I have been testing some new cards in the MB of DS, the y seem to have a positive effect on the deck and while they still require more testing I think there worth mentioning.

The first is, IMO, the better of the two, Threaten. At :2::r: it fits the curve of the deck and serves a vital purpose. Getting rid of an opposing blocker is nice, being able to swing with it is even better. I have bee running 2 in the MB in place of 1x Trinisphere and 1x Taurean Mauler.

The second looks like its turning out to be more, "win more" then anything else. Double Cleave is basically a red Berserk for :1::wr:, it is a really nice trick with Gathan Raider. 2 cards in hand, swing with my morph, pitch one card to un-morph raiders, Double cleave, Take 10! Works well with just about any creature really, Slogger will do 8, Pit Dragon 6+, you get the idea.

So let me know what you think, if you do test these two cards LMK how it goes.

****The following suggestions are just that, suggestions, I am not stating these cards are auto includes in DS and still require more testing.****

[Joe_C]

not like it is along the lines of stone rain in the deck, but what about something like Grab the Reins in the sideboard? It can steal and sacrifice one of their creatures if you can entwine it, sac one of yours for the kill/remove bridge from below in an emergency... Imagine stealing and "flinging" a huge countryside crusher. Seems decent in a creature heavy meta

To quote myself, threaten was a consideration here for me, but grab the reins shows promise as well

[Wallace]

To quote myself, threaten was a consideration here for me, but grab the reins shows promise as well

The problem I have with Grab the Reins is that it doesn't untap the creature you are stealing and if you want to use it with entwine it will cost you :5::r::r:, 7 mana is a little tough for this deck. I think that Threaten is a better choice.

[deviant]

I have to disagree, I run no Jitte's at all, MB or SB. To me that slot is better occupied by a dude. Jitte is a dead card with nothing to equip it to and really only improves a few match's.

I think you had your trinispheres in the slots people usually run Jittes, which to me seems perfectly acceptable since you said you have a lot of storm in your meta. This is not, however, what the normal meta looks like so I just want to point out that they are working so well for you because they are a good meta-call.
(just so someone doesn't get confused, play trinis in a "normal" meta and be disappointed, abandon the deck and start playing Standard or god-knows-what)

Ehem. Where was I?
Oh Yeah!
"If you have a hand such: City/Magus/jitte/mox/ssg/Song/chalice

Against an unknown do you:

a: Lead with City, mox(imprint ssg), song, chalice, magus
b: Lead with City,mox(imprint ssg), song, magus, jitte
c: Lead with City, mox(imprint ssg), song, magus, chalice"

1st: try to suppress that smile :D
A is correct. Here's why:
Chalice=1 & Magus of the Moon on the go is one of the most broken openings in this format. It's practically the same as a lethal Tendrils to the face.
From these two, the generally more broken is the Magus. That's why you "bait" with Chalice. But there is more; if the opponent has, let's say a fetchland, and you were on the draw, playing it like this makes it impossible for them to fetch in response, float W and send the poor Magus farming.
(or U and blast him)

And to the first one:
"If you are playing against an opponent game 1, no idea of what they are playing, on the play. What is the better turn 1?

Chalice at 1
Trinisphere
Blood moon/Magus"

To me this depends on the mana you have. If you have to pitch SSG to be able to Trini, and you'd then be left with only 2 mana to work with barring topdecks, I WOULD NOT lead with trini. This deck is inconsistent as fuck, and we, the players should acknowledge that. I for one, do not trust my topdecks more than I have to. So I would lead with Chalice-1, and then follow it up with either magus or trini, depending on what the opp. played.

Notice that the opening is still a very, very strong one.

I btw second that the correct number of md trinis in a "normal" metagame is zero. 2-3 in the sb should do the trick.


EDIT: You know what Wallace? I think I'll just take those Threatens, put them where I had my Jittes and go beat some randoms on MWS :) I'll let you know if anything amusing happens.

[DrtyDozen13]

Grab the Reins: the abilities are not good enough for the cost. Fling or threaten are better because they can be played much easier.
Threaten: Really what creatures are you stealing. The only thing I can see that's worth it on a consistent basis is Goyf, and even that isn't worth it. DS creatures trade with goyf, even the 2/2s provided you have equips. It's just too worthless in many situations.
Jitte: It's best against lower level and janky decks. Ya know the ones DS has it's most problems with. Specifically aggro (ie Goblins) and Burn are the more notable decks I can think of that get wrecked by jitte. I think Jitte is important to make the low powered creatures big and the only other removal MD is Slogger. Personally I run 24 creatures and 2 jittes. I never have a problem with attaching it or drawing too many. In fact the only times I've drawn 2 I could discard it to a raiders or the first was countered/destroyed.

[Joe_C]

Im not sure on how I feel about nix'ing trinisphere from the main. This is my thought process:

1. Our mana curve is designed to abuse trinisphere
2. Blood moon turn 1 is a waste if you are not playing a multi colored deck, where 3sphere is not
3. Where I play(CT), there is a ton of control, painter, threshold. Which I would expect to see all over the place, which 3sphere is still strong against.
4. Turn 1 chalice, and 3sphere busts heads
5. I would rather have trini main and have more removal in the board

thats all I can think of for now, but I am sure there are many more justifications for at least maindecking 2....

[DrtyDozen13]

1. DS is designed to abuse :2: mana lands, blood moon, seething song, chalice, etc. It works well with 3shpere but is not based around it. A deck based on 3phere would be stax where you can reliably keep your opponent under :3: mana.
2. Blood moon kills so many top tier decks it's worth the turn 1 play. 3shpere often only is a speed bump which can be over come quickly and is terrible after turn 2.
3. 3sphere is not good against control. Depending on the build its not good against painter. It is good against thresh, but typically moons and chalices hurt more.
4. I agree 3spere is very good turn 1 on the play, but how often will you get that play. There are better options that don't suck when you top deck them after turn 2. They do have a place against certain decks and thus worthy of a SB slot, but not MD unless your meta really warrants it.
5. 4x pyrokinesis SB plus 2x jitte and 4x slogger MD is enough removal.

At 2x it's not going to get you the broken starts that you want, and will make just about every match up worse when drawing it late... except of course combo which will be made slightly better.

[Wallace]

3. 3sphere is not good against control.

:confused: ... You wanna say that one more time?

Trinisphere makes FoW, Brainstorm, Ponder, StP, Daze, Lightning Bolt, Fire//Ice, Thoughtseize, Stifle, Snuff Out, and many other cards cost 3 in the control MU. IDK about you but I think that kind of makes your statement un-true.

Lets not even get into how good 3sphere is against Storm based combo decks, Burn and Goyf Sligh. I mean Goblins is no where near as popular as it used to be and other straight aggro see little to no play. So I don't really see how Jitte is even needed any more. I have been running DS for the last 2 months, without Jitte, and I seem to be doing fairly well with it. I'm just talking about just in my local meta either, I just missed top 8 in Hadley and if it weren't for a bad MU followed by a great 3 games against B/G Sui that I ended up losing, I would have Top 8'ed the $1000 event in Syracuse.

IDK, to me Jitte is useless by it's self, i.e. nothing to equip it to, and is better suited as a 3sphere, which is almost always useful.

[TeenieBopper]

:confused: ... You wanna say that one more time?

Trinisphere makes FoW, Brainstorm, Ponder, StP, Daze, Lightning Bolt, Fire//Ice, Thoughtseize, Stifle, Snuff Out, and many other cards cost 3 in the control MU. IDK about you but I think that kind of makes your statement un-true.



3Sphere sucks against control. Against Aggro-control, on the otherhand, it's a house. Landstill could pretty much give a shit about paying three mana for Brainstorm or StP. The really important cards (Wrath, Deed, etc) cost three or more anyways.

[DrtyDozen13]

:confused: ... You wanna say that one more time?3sphere is not good against control.

[Nihil Credo]

Trinisphere makes FoW, Brainstorm, Ponder, StP, Daze, Lightning Bolt, Fire//Ice, Thoughtseize, Stifle, Snuff Out, and many other cards cost 3 in the control MU. IDK about you but I think that kind of makes your statement un-true.

Highlighted: cards that control decks play (sometimes they play Stifle too, but its best use against DS is pitching to FoW).

Trinisphere is (only) good against control when you have a play that positively wins the game if it resolves. In the case of Dragon Stompy, that applies only if you're going against a deck that scoops to Blood Moon. If they don't, Trinisphere is going to only mildly slow them down, whereas Equipment, while not particularly awesome either, can very well turn the game around by upgrading a random Simian Spirit Guide / Magus of the Moon / Sulfur Elemental / fresh Taurean Mauler into a serious threat demanding removal, instead of something that gets blocked by Factory.

Now, consider that ScoopsToMoon.dec = OK to good MU; NotScoopsToMoon.dec = god-awful MU, and I think you should see why Trinisphere is one of your least exciting cards against control overall.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

3sphere is not good against control.
Control is too broad for that statement to be true.

Against 'blue control' elements such as counter spells and cheap card draw, Trinisphere is decent. Assuming it resolves, it cuts off some of their early disruption and makes the rest harder to use by limiting the amount of spells per untap.

Against 'board control' elements such as Deed, Shackles, Swords, and Wrath, Trinisphere isn't very good at all. That disruption comes after your threats, ergo, later in the game when they have more mana. Most 'scary' board control cards cost at least three mana, making Trinisphere irrelevant.

[DrtyDozen13]

I suppose it is a pretty broad statement, but in gerneral is true. Decent = not good, thanks for agreeing with me. MUC doesn't care about 3sphere because the only free counters it uses are FoW, doesn't use cantrips, and uses FoF for draw.
3sphere is not good against control.

[Whit3 Ghost]

I suppose it is a pretty broad statement, but in gerneral is true. Decent = not good, thanks for agreeing with me. MUC doesn't care about 3sphere because the only free counters it uses are FoW, doesn't use cantrips, and uses FoF for draw.
Actually, Trinisphere is awesome against any deck running blue because it drastically slows down their gameplan to basically a spell a turn. Turn one Trinisphere means that you can now cast your best spells in the next 2 turns without the threat of getting hit with counterspells and place your opponent on the defensive even more. Also, if you're having trouble with Blue, sideboard Boil.

[DrtyDozen13]

Actually, Trinisphere is awesome against any deck running blue because it drastically slows down their gameplan to basically a spell a turn. Turn one Trinisphere means that you can now cast your best spells in the next 2 turns without the threat of getting hit with counterspells and place your opponent on the defensive even more. Also, if you're having trouble with Blue, sideboard Boil.Actually we're not talking about any deck running blue. We're talking about control decks that in general run enough lands and higher cost spells to not care about a 3sphere especially after turn 2. When talking about a deck like Thresh that runs blue for cantrips and free counterspells 3sphere is good (this has already been established), but Thresh isn't a control deck. Please learn to read :rolleyes:
3sphere is not good against control.PS
NotScoopsToMoon.dec = god-awful MUThis isn't always true. Chalice can wreck decks that aren't hurt by moon. And needle out of the board often fixes match ups with the NotScoopsToMoon.dec, and jitte often helps as well.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

We're talking about control decks that in general run enough lands to not care about a 3sphere especially after turn 2.After a turn one Trinisphere, that still two turns of no disruption. You can cast your best threats in this window with out having to bait or test for counters. After this window, they're still limited to one or two counter spells or card draw a turn. That severely eases the blow that blue disruption elements can inflict upon this deck.

[Whit3 Ghost]

Actually we're not talking about any deck running blue. We're talking about control decks that in general run enough lands to not care about a 3sphere especially after turn 2. When talking about a deck like Thresh that runs blue for cantrips and free counterspells 3sphere is good (this has already been established), but Thresh isn't a control deck. Please learn to read :rolleyes:
I believe my reading comprehension is perfectly fine. Blue based control still has to deal with a 3sphere after turn 3 because it forces them into the choice of either leaving counter mana up or trying to deal with your threats.

Also, how are you having trouble with MUC? Don't they run about 3 relevent cards in that matchup in Shackles and maybe their wincons if the can resolve them? If for some reason you have a ton of trouble in that matchup sideboard Boil like I said earlier. It makes Trinisphere even more ridiculous.

[DrtyDozen13]

OK provided you get it in your opening hand and have the ability to play it that turn and your on the play you have a 2 turn window. On the draw a 1 turn window. Don't worry control won't miss its land drops and if it does you've won already. So after playing it you have to have a threat to play in that window and the ability to play it. The averages are against you especially the way this deck mulligans. MUC pays :u::3: for its draw and does it only when it doesn't need the mana for counter after your turn ends. After they have enough mana to play through a 3shpere, provided it resolved, it really doesn't do any thing to stop them. You may get lucky in some match ups, but most of the time it will just get countered or do nothing.

Never said i had troubles with MUC (again read, this is not a conversation about the MUC match up). You are correct, Boil is good against MUC (provided you can resolve it) and actually makes 3shere good, but I don't have space in my SB for it. 3sphere by itself does nothing to control.

It's not that I have anything against 3sphere, I've tried it and had crazy results (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=250797&postcount=1352) with it. I've also played it and seen how bad it is outside of turn 2 and thats why it should only be played if its a game winner not just a speed bump. A speed bump is only good with a great hand.

[Whit3 Ghost]

OK provided you get it in your opening hand and have the ability to play it that turn and your on the play you have a 2 turn window. On the draw a 1 turn window. So after playing it you have to have a threat to play in that window and the ability to play it. The averages are against you especially the way this deck mulligans. MUC pays :u::3: for its draw and does it only when it doesn't need the mana for counter after your turn ends. After they have enough mana to play through a 3shpere, provided it resolved, it really doesn't do any thing to stop them. You may get lucky in some match ups, but most of the time it will just get countered or do nothing.

Never said i had troubles with MUC (again read, this is not a conversation about the MUC match up). Boil is good against MUC (provided you can resolve it) and actually makes 3shere good, but I don't have space in my SB for it. 3sphere by itself does nothing to control.
Then what are you talking about? You brought MUC into question as a deck that plays around 3sphere without much side effect when clearly, it doesn't, shutting down eot Brainstorm, Countermagic #2 and forcing them wait to drop Shackles until turn 6 or later. You bringing up the "if it resolves" clearly shows that it is of a high enough incentive for your opponent to counter. There is the aforementioned Trinisphere on turn one, which is obviously bad for them. You are also missing the fact that you can also get to 6 mana before they do and cast multiple spells on your turn which your opponent cannot answer. Trinisphere is good against control because it limits what your opponent can do and thus creates virtual card advantage which is usually exploited by either further disruption or a solid creature base both of which this deck has.

[DrtyDozen13]

Then what are you talking about? You brought MUC into question as a deck that plays around 3sphere without much side effect when clearly, it doesn't, shutting down eot Brainstorm,


MUC doesn't use cantrips... at least not good MUC decks. Cantrips are counterproductive since they provide only filtering and no real card advantage.


Countermagic #2 and forcing them wait to drop Shackles until turn 6 or later.

Vedalken Shackles costs :3: and hence doesn't care. If they plan on leaving mana open for counter they would have to have at least 5 open w/o 3sphere.


You bringing up the "if it resolves" clearly shows that it is of a high enough incentive for your opponent to counter.

Yeah but that goes for a threat cast at the same time (only a threat continues to be a problem where as a 3sphere eventually becomes irreverent). Early they will need to counter it. I've already said if your lucky enough to cast it at the right time it can be useful, but overall it sucks most of the time (most of the time being: drawing it after turn 2/not being able to play before turn 3).


There is the aforementioned Trinisphere on turn one, which is obviously bad for them. You are also missing the fact that you can also get to 6 mana before they do Not generally true, MUC doesn't miss it's land drops ever, DS does... and cast multiple spells on your turn which your opponent cannot answer.

If your holding back spells to play 2 in one turn they are collecting counters so they can counter multiple spells in one turn.


Trinisphere is good against control WRONG because it limits what your opponent can do and thus creates virtual card advantage which is usually exploited by either further disruption or a solid creature base both of which this deck has.

WRONG. It only provides a speed bump that if you do nothing during will do nothing to stop them from completing their game plan. Fast aggro hurts control more than big beats. Pithing needle is much better against control than 3sphere.

Really landstill (which hates your moons and needles) is the only control you really have to worry about and it really doesn't care about 3sphere. MUC is not good enough to worry this much about it. Now I'm not going to argue this anymore so don't bother responding to me, I will just ignore you. You can play a crap card in that MU if you would like, but at least I can say I tried to warn you.

[Mayk0l]

What do you guys do with a hand that contains the following (and no other playable/relevant card):

City of Traitors, Taurean Mauler, Blood Moon, Mountain, Mountain


With a turn 1 play not possible, the chance of succesfully screwing over a fetchland has become small. You'll drop the Mountain, and in your second turn follow it up with the City.
But which of the two red cards do you drop?

Mauler: Advantages include a potentially bigger Mauler, it's a threat that deals damage. The biggest disadvantage is that it's not a lockpiece
Blood Moon: Advantages include it being a lockpiece that might potentially halt your opponent now before he finds what he needs to ignore it. Biggest disadvantages are that it's not a threat and it's 'slow' in that if your opponent can ignore it (e.g. most of the cards in his hand can be played with the basic he fetched in turn 1).

Of course it depends on your opponent and his/her deck. Assume he has the typical Legacy build of 6-8 Fetch and 4-8 Duals, the rest filled with basics.



Now people have argued the power of a turn 1 Chalice@1. How would you play this hand?

Chalice of the Void, City of Traitors, Mountain, Taurean Mauler (and nothing else that's relevant)


EDIT: Ow, and this one:
Mountain, Mountain, Arc-Slogger, Blood Moon, Rakdos Pit-Dragon, Chalice of the Void, Blood Moon

[Nihil Credo]

What do you guys do with a hand that contains the following (and no other playable/relevant card):

City of Traitors, Taurean Mauler, Blood Moon, Mountain, Mountain
Mountain, go. If he plays something that hints at Daze (Ponder/Top/Mongoose), add a second turn of Mountain, go. If he opens with a nonbasic or a nonblue fetchland, open with Blood Moon. If not, open with Mauler (either because Blood Moon is unlikely to be effective, or because you hope to bait a counterspell with it).


Now people have argued the power of a turn 1 Chalice@1. How would you play this hand?

Chalice of the Void, City of Traitors, Mountain, Taurean Mauler (and nothing else that's relevant)Turn 1 Chalice, because with such a shitty hand I have to pray I get a blowout. By the way, I'm considering this as a 4-carder, because there is no such thing as an irrelevant card in your opener. For example, a pair of Sloggers would definitely switch me to the Mountain, Go plan (which significantly increases the chances of getting to cast them).


EDIT: Ow, and this one:
Mountain, Mountain, Arc-Slogger, Blood Moon, Rakdos Pit-Dragon, Chalice of the Void, Blood MoonMulligan on the play. On the draw, mulligan if your opponent kept his seven, and probably if he kept his six also (certainly if he looked happy with them, e.g. immediately said "keep").

[emidln]

... at least not good MUC decks. Cantrips are counterproductive since they provide only filtering and no real card advantage.

This is only true if you only generate CA/VCA from countermagic. If you have ways of generating card advantage (such as Shackles, EE, Powder Keg, etc) then cantrips are fine. Moreover, card selection is often extremely important in an archetype that typically has a very limited ability to remove resolved threats. The filtering provided by something like Impulse/Ponder/Brainstorm can be critical to finding the answer to resolved threats that let another class of draw spell (something like Ancestral Vision, Fact or Fiction, Thirst for Knowledge, etc) do its job later in the game.



Vedalken Shackles costs :3: and hence doesn't care. If they plan on leaving mana open for counter they would have to have at least 5 open w/o 3sphere.

Force of Will works at 3 mana. Force Spike and Spell Snare work at 4 mana. All of these are kicked to the curb by Trinisphere.

[DrtyDozen13]

What do you guys do with a hand that contains the following (and no other playable/relevant card):

City of Traitors, Taurean Mauler, Blood Moon, Mountain, MountainI think you said is best it really depends on what you're playing and what you see them play first.

Now people have argued the power of a turn 1 Chalice@1. How would you play this hand?

Chalice of the Void, City of Traitors, Mountain, Taurean Mauler (and nothing else that's relevant)City>chalice, turn 2 mauler... unless you know a chalice at 1 will be worthless, then mulligan into something more playable.

EDIT: Ow, and this one:
Mountain, Mountain, Arc-Slogger, Blood Moon, Rakdos Pit-Dragon, Chalice of the Void, Blood MoonAgainst a deck that hates blood moon I would keep, but if moons are less valuable I would probably mulligan.

[Joe_C]

I am playing in a tourney next weekend and I am undecided if I am playing dragon stompy or Ichorid, if the grave hate is emminent, Im rocking stompy. This is the list Ive been testing

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Mountain

4 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Arc Slogger
2 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Gathan Raiders
3 Taurean Mauler
2 Sulfur Elemental
4 Magus of The Moon
3 Blood Moon
3 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of The Void
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Seething Song

SB:
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Trinisphere
1 Blood Moon
4 Pyroclasm
2 Powder Keg
3 Tormods Crypt
3 Pithing Needle

[Wallace]

3 Arc Slogger
2 Rakdos Pit Dragon



WTF? There is one constant in DS, 4 x Arc Slogger and 4 x Rakdos Pit Dragon. I would also choose one or the other on Taurean Mauler and Sulfur Elemental. Other than that it looks solid, here is the list I ran at the last major legacy event in my area, I went 3-2 and had to leave.

4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Magus of The Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Arc Slogger
3 Taurean Mauler

4 Chalice of The Void
3 Trinisphere
2 Blood Moon

4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song
2 Equipment (SoLS or Jitte)

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Mountain

Sideboard:
4 Pithing Needle
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Blood Moon
1 Trinisphere
2 Ingot Chewer
1 Gaea's Blessing
2 Pyrokinesis

[Joe_C]

WTF? There is one constant in DS, 4 x Arc Slogger and 4 x Rakdos Pit Dragon.


Note in my post I stated "testing". I dont know about anyone else but alot of the time pit dragon is just a 3/3 for 4 mana. Ive been trying running more 3 drops in the place of 2 of them. Rakdos can end the game really quick if you drop him early and get hellbent, but alot of the time I still have cards in hand when I play him and he is less and less relevant. I have seen several lists that have top 8'd that dont run a full compiment of dragons/slogger.

[Zork]

Truth. The original list that Parcher top 2'd with only ran a couple dragons, and the list that I top 2'd with only ran 3 dragons.

4 Slogger is pretty important, though.

[DrtyDozen13]

Yeah outside of jitte, slogger is your only removal run 4. As far as the dragon, I like 4 because it ends games fast and I have rarely had any problems getting it hellbent. Also it's ability to fly is useful sometimes as no other creature in the deck has evasion. for reference (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=252376&postcount=1406)

[Wallace]

Note in my post I stated "testing". I dont know about anyone else but alot of the time pit dragon is just a 3/3 for 4 mana. Ive been trying running more 3 drops in the place of 2 of them. Rakdos can end the game really quick if you drop him early and get hellbent, but alot of the time I still have cards in hand when I play him and he is less and less relevant. I have seen several lists that have top 8'd that dont run a full compiment of dragons/slogger.

Keep in mind he is a 3/3 with firebreathing for :2::r::r: and while your not always hellbent, he can still get the job done. Pit Dragon gives you a place to dump any extra :r: you have and can jump over opposing Goyf's. Arc Slogger can win a game by it's self, if I had a nickle for every time time Slogger just "wins" for me, I would have a shit load of nickles...

[Joe_C]

Ive tried a few configurations over the past few days. I think I have settled on this(barring last minute changes due to scouting)

4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Magus of The Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Arc Slogger
4 Taurean Mauler
4 Chalice of The Void
4 Blood Moon
4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Mountain

SB:
4 Trinisphere(love having 4 against storm combo, but may drop one for something else)
4 Pithing Needle
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pyroclasm
1 Umezawa's JItte

[jazzykat]

So, other than looking at opening hands and it is apparent that this deck mulligans a bit, what are it's top 5 worst matchups?

[Wallace]

So, other than looking at opening hands and it is apparent that this deck mulligans a bit, what are it's top 5 worst matchups?

Enchantress and Black discard decks are a big problem, Quinn The Eskimo- Aka, The Mighty Quinn is a bitch too. Those are the only 3 deck I have ever had a real problem with. Goyf Sligh turns bad after game 1, unless they are running main deck Grip, then game one is trouble too.

[Mayk0l]

Im still going for MUC as a bad MU. But a lot of people disagree with me.

[Kuma]

In no particular order:

Enchantress
Faerie Stompy
MUC
Aggro Loam
Tempo Thresh/Swan Combo Thresh/Red Thresh in General

[overseer1234]

MUC, enchantress, Loam (terrageddon/agro loam), goyf sligh, "Random_Crap.dec"

The first 2 are nearly winnable..

Loam can be a b*tch with deed+EE+STp+bigger critters, but they can be raced sometimes.

Goyf sligh is hard but winnable, they have litte or no effect from moon, chalice could stall them, but if you can slam with a jitte you usualy win (unless they grip it, in which case your trini/chalice will stick).


This deck really tends to lose against tier 7 decks with a higher curve, and few to no nonbascs, usually jitte wins these games...

[Joe_C]

I posted this in the tourney report side, but here it is for this thread:

Dragon Stompy takes 4th at Hadley 4x Sea Drake
Well Im awake enough and while the games are some what fresh in my memory and along with some sparse notes I take I can give the general idea of what happened in each game I played.

After picking up Holiday we venture forth to Mass, get there quite early. Grub up and get our lists sorted and get settled in for the tourney. Here's my list:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Mountain
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song
4 Arc Slogger
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Taurean Mauler
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Gathan Raiders
3 Blood Moon
3 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void

Board:
4 Pithing Needle
3 Pyroclasm
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Blood Moon
1 Trinisphere

Round 1 Steve Normandin playing 3 color control(featuring wrath of god/EE/ nivenyrral's disk)
Won Die Roll
Game 1:

Turn 1 trinisphere gets countered. I drop a turn 2 Mauler. Backed by a pit dragon 2 turns later. Get in for 16 with a bent dragon. GG

Board: Out 1 slogger/3 3sphere/1 dragon. In 1 Moon 4 needle

Game 2: I get a opening hand thats modest with a raiders in it and 2 needles. I play tomb, needle on EE, then needle on polluted delta. He gets a meddling mage naming blood moon. I drop my raiders get hellbent and start swinging. He bounces my needles via echoing truth. Wrath of god clears the board. I dont get anything useful. He hardcasts decree of justice for 2 4/4 angels while I am at 4 from mishra's factory beats. I scoop.

Game 3(no change to deck): Turn 2 moon. Followed by a hard cast spirit guide that takes him from 18 to 6 on its own. He counters everything I try to play. He stp's my guide, and then stp's a bent raiders. I get a magus on board and he cleans it up

2-1
2-0-0

Round 2: Nate Bowe with U/r Painter
He wins die roll
Game 1: He goes island go. I drop turn 1 chalice at one which resolves. Followed by turn 2 mauler, then a raiders a few turns later. Unfortunately, he is able to EE my chalice and then combo when he is at 2 life:tongue:

Board time!:out 3 Blood Moon and 1 arc slogger. In 4 needle

Game 2: I get turn 1 needle on grindstone. Dont have extensive notes here, but his life total gets taken down quick by a hellbent dragon who swings for 8 for the kill.

Game 3(no change): Turn 1 cotv at 1. Pit dragon does the job again nailing him for 4, then 8, then 6. GG:smile:

4-2
2-0-0

Game 3: Matt Mcnally UB Painter(just what I wanted 2 painter matches in a row:rolleyes: )
Think He won die roll
Game 1: He goes land go. Turn 2 3sphere. Turn 3 Magus. He doesnt get back into this one. Slogger gets out and seals the deal

Board: Out: 2 Dragon, 1 song, 1 slogger, 1 mauler, 1 raiders. In: 1 moon 1 3sphere 4 needle

Game 2: Turn 1 needle on grindstone. t2 moon. he is able to EE my needle away and combos while he is at 13.

Game 3(no change): Turn 1 3sphere. Turn 2 Magus followed by a bent raiders. 3 attack phases for 7 seals it

2-1
3-0-0

Round 4: Chris B with g/b/w Rock
I win roll

Game 1: I get turn 1 mauler followed by a raiders. He doesnt get in this game. I win quickly.

Board: out 3 3sphere, 1 dragon. IN 3 pyroclasm(i knew he was running bitterblossom), 1 Moon

Game 2: He doesnt get into this game either. Bent raiders followed by blood moon and magus seals it.

2-0
4-0-0

Round 5: ID
Round 6: ID

TOP 8!!!!
First Match: Joe Bernier with survival.
He wins Die roll:

Game 1. He goes fetch, crack it for forest pass. I play chrome mox pitching slogger, city. Seething song, Seething song, Pit Dragon 3 sphere pass. He takes 3 next turn from dragon, after I play a 2nd. They kill him turn 3.

Board: OUt 3 3sphere 2 slogger, 1 Mauler, 1 Raiders, 1 Dragon. In: 4 needle, 3 pyroclasm , 1 moon.

Game 2: I mull to 5. He thoughtseizes turn 1 I have Magus/Moon/Chalice in my hand. He rips magus. I drop chalice 1 on my turn. He plays land, survival, go. I drop blood moon, which screws him for green. He doesnt get a forest. I get a raiders that gets bent and wins it.

2-0
5-0-2

Top 4 against Geoff Smelski with I run Soooo many basic land landstill:tongue:

This matchup was tragic. He had TONS of basics that even if I resolved a moon effect it wouldnt have mattered much. He wins 2-0 (yeah I even ancient tombed myself to death instead of dying to his attack next turn) Take that!:tongue:

But Geoff was a very personable guy. It was a gruelling secong match if I hadnt drawn 4 land in a row at one point it would have maybe gone to 3 games.

Took cash value for $30
So I took 4th out of 50 players(not too shabby for my first competitive playing with this deck)...

Props: Chalice of the void and moon effects for being what they are(dont you change for nobody)
seething song for being busted
pit dragon, god I love you
mountains for being tech
off the wall games for being a chill place and having amazingly enough elbow room at their tables
me not having to face enchantress(whoot!)
trying sushi at the restaraunt across the way. good shit!

slops: basic lands:tongue: (ok, well when I dont play them)
burger king(why do I eat your garbage?, sure it tastes kinda good but man, my stomach)

Hoping to take D. Stompy to some more top 8's in the future...

[Mayk0l]

But Geoff was a very personable guy. It was a gruelling secong match if I hadnt drawn 4 land in a row at one point it would have maybe gone to 3 games..

The Deck is cursed. In two of the tournaments I played it in I had similar problems. Go 4-0 and then drop out of the tournament in a good matchup simply because I get flooded twice (drawing 7 land in a row when you just need one threat). I guess that's the biggest weakness the deck has once you get past the first two rounds (and thus are free from the tier 7 basiclands.decs).

I guess the DS's strongest power is also it's biggest weakness, the topdeck mode.

After this tournament, how do you consider the Landstill MU to be? I never have found it to be that great.

[Joe_C]

After this tournament, how do you consider the Landstill MU to be? I never have found it to be that great.


Well, as I said he ran a TON of basic land. I would say 4 color is a better matchup than u/b/w, since most likely a moon effect will be highly disruptive to them. I would have to test the matchup more to get a percentage down but I cant see 3 color being in my favor unless stompy explodes turn 1 with double song 3sphere creature.

Has anyone considered running Null Brooch? Against landstill it stops wrath/EE from hitting and gets you hellbent. Seems like a maybe danger of cool things, but I dunno. 3 Sphere just doesnt cut it past turn 2-3 and you cant stop wrath any other way....

[jjjoness']

Well, as I said he ran a TON of basic land. I would say 4 color is a better matchup than u/b/w, since most likely a moon effect will be highly disruptive to them. I would have to test the matchup more to get a percentage down but I cant see 3 color being in my favor unless stompy explodes turn 1 with double song 3sphere creature.

Has anyone considered running Null Brooch? Against landstill it stops wrath/EE from hitting and gets you hellbent. Seems like a maybe danger of cool things, but I dunno. 3 Sphere just doesnt cut it past turn 2-3 and you cant stop wrath any other way....
4 Color is definitely way better than UW/b. In tournament play I haven't won a single game against UW/b, because your moons are really worthless, Chalice doesn't really hurt them and Humility just wrecks you.

[Joe_C]

http://sales.starcitygames.com//carddisplay.php?product=38432

has anyone even thought of this as an option against landstill? Maybe some more firebreathing creatures could make this insane. Too bad it's only a 1/1, but the ability could be killer

[Illissius]

Hmm. Seems weak. Basically turns off their ability to play spells with mana on your turn (they will just plow all their mana into a manland on their own turn to leave none untapped), except they can ignore it if they want to by sacrificing a land. And they can answer it with pretty much any kind of removal. I'd rather use Price of Glory -- if anything.

[overseer1234]

Why not just play winter orb against landstill? In older versions W-Orb already was in the sideboards, and I think this might also improve the MUC matchup...

[Captain Hammer]

Edit: Sorry I wasn't clearer. This is what I was referring to...

Quietus Spike 3
Artifact - Equipment
Equipped creature has deathtouch.
Whenever equipped creature deals combat damage to a player, that player loses half his or her life, rounded up.
Equip 3

Equipped onto an Arc Slogger, you can reduce an opponent from 20 life to 0 life at instant speed with just three red mana, and this is without having to attack!

Basically, early on, this can do as much as 8 additional points of damage to an opponent.

Given our manabase, we can get it on something fairly early.

Even Deathtouch can be pretty solid on something like Trinket Mage or Pestermite.

Could this replace Swords?

Less consistent, but a hell of a lot more bomby.

[Dark_Cynic87]

I would be scared of that. So I'm getting some.

I don't know how good it will be, but it seems worth testing. Not just in this deck, but lots of stompy builds. Faerie Stompy (I realize they got a new equipment costing X = tutorable by T. Mage, but still worth looking into), Angel Stompy could use this to extreme affect IMO, and Demon Stompy screams play me. A faster clock for them could put them in a good area. Maybe as good as this list.

Pce,

--DC

[Joe_C]

I would be scared of that. So I'm getting some.

I don't know how good it will be, but it seems worth testing. Not just in this deck, but lots of stompy builds. Faerie Stompy (I realize they got a new equipment costing X = tutorable by T. Mage, but still worth looking into), Angel Stompy could use this to extreme affect IMO, and Demon Stompy screams play me. A faster clock for them could put them in a good area. Maybe as good as this list.

Pce,

--DC

what are you referring to here? Brooch?

[Mayk0l]

I think he's referring to the new equipment, something like:

X
Artifact
[This] comes into play with X counters on it
Equip: Remove a counter from [this]
Equiped creature get's +1/+1 for each counter on [this]


Anyway, I'd much rather have Jitte. It's the only removal this deck has.

[Dark_Cynic87]

The new deathtouch equipment.

[Joe_C]

I dont think there is enough aggro to warrant equipment anymnore. I think more prison effects could be used. I never used my jittes in my board, not sure what would fit, but 4 slogger and 4 wipe cards like pyroclasm or pyrokinesis in the board seem sufficient for the metagame

[Zork]

He's actually talking about the new equipment that reads:

3
Equip: 3
Equipped creature has deathtouch.
Whenever equipped creature deals damage to an opponent, that opponent loses half their life, rounded up.

[Kuma]

Nah, "Deathtouch Equipment" is too costly and doesn't do enough. I've done some testing with Loxodon Warhammer in Demon Stompy, and it is a tough card to use because of how much mana it needs. "Deathtouch Equipment" would have the same problem while doing even less to the immediate game state.

Our creatures are big enough that they rarely need deathtouch. In the few times that deathtouch would help, adding two or three power to the creature (SoFI or Warhammer) would be even more effective while having other benefits (pro red, lifelink).

[Fuzzy]

I have LOTS of questions about this deck:

- How good 3sphere is? I only can see it's useful against Storm Combo and ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh, both in decadence.
- Versus MonoU, Citadel of Pain was already tested?
- A friend of mine played Rally the Horde in the Extended Dragon Stompy. It could be playable or SoK only have 2 good cards?
- What do you guys think about the "Goblin Blossom" from Alara?

And, finally:

- WHAT DO AGAINST AGGRO-LOAM?

PS: Sorry my english, this is not my natural language.

[jazzykat]

The best thing to do against aggro loam is get chalice for 2 down.

[Shawon]

He's actually talking about the new equipment that reads:

3
Equip: 3
Equipped creature has deathtouch.
Whenever equipped creature deals damage to an opponent, that opponent loses half their life, rounded up.

So, really, it ALWAYS halves your opp's life total, thus, if you want to actually kill your opp, you're going to have to find a way to unattach 'Deathtouch Equipment' from your guy (i.e. Equip another creature with it).

I guess, in conclusion, seems a little win-more, or just plain situational.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

So, really, it ALWAYS halves your opp's life total, thus, if you want to actually kill your opp, you're going to have to find a way to unattach 'Deathtouch Equipment' from your guy (i.e. Equip another creature with it).

I guess, in conclusion, seems a little win-more, or just plain situational.If I'm reading you right, you seem to be under the impression that is will always take away half you opponent's life rounded down and nothing more. That's not true, the creature deals it's damage then the opponent loses half his life.

Also cool about it; Arc-Slogger can use it to kill anything it can target or quickly knock the opponent's life down. A single shock can take someone from twenty down to nine.

[Jaiminho]

A 6/3 double striking Rakdos Pit Dragon kills a 20 life opponent in a single attack with that equipment. Fun shits!

I ain't saying it's good, but it might be.

[Kuma]

Both of the above cases are win more, especially the Dragon. If I hit with a 6/3 double striking Dragon, I should win regardless of what equipment it attached.

It does do neat tricks with Arc-Slogger, but paying six mana before you can use it plus five for an Arc-Slogger and at least one more to shock and we're talking about a ton of mana.

Isn't the trend in Dragon Stompy away from equipment?


I have LOTS of questions about this deck:

- How good 3sphere is? I only can see it's useful against Storm Combo and ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh, both in decadence.

It's useful against a few other decks too. Scan the past ten or so pages. Affinity comes to mind, possibly Goyf Sligh, but I've never played against the deck. The card's usefulness decreases rapidly after turn one and if you're on the draw.


- A friend of mine played Rally the Horde in the Extended Dragon Stompy. It could be playable or SoK only have 2 good cards?

Rally the Horde is too expensive to run.


- What do you guys think about the "Goblin Blossom" from Alara?

I actually kind of like this card, especially in goblin heavy metas. If dropped early, it gets out of hand quickly, and the goblin player is going to hate having to swing with everything. It's also useful vs Wrath/Damnation and high creature removal decks.

I don't think it's going to replace Mauler in most lists, but it does have applications.


And, finally:

- WHAT DO AGAINST AGGRO-LOAM?

In addition to the aforementioned Chalice at two, pray really hard.

More seriously, side in crypts/Pyrokinesis. Use the former against Terravore/Loam, and the latter to kill Countryside Crusher before they get an upkeep. Sword of Fire and Ice is also good.

Moons can be effective here depending on how many colors they run. At the very least they make Terravore difficult to cast. I'd probably side out Maguses, since they have a ton of ways to kill him.

Maybe -4 Magus, +4 Crypt, -4 Trinispheres or Maulers, +4 Pyrokinesis. SoFI over Jitte if you expect a lot of Aggro Loam/Dragon Stompy/Other non-Burn Red decks.

[Joe_C]

Both of the above cases are win more, especially the Dragon. If I hit with a 6/3 double striking Dragon, I should win regardless of what equipment it attached.

It does do neat tricks with Arc-Slogger, but paying six mana before you can use it plus five for an Arc-Slogger and at least one more to shock and we're talking about a ton of mana.

Isn't the trend in Dragon Stompy away from equipment?



It's useful against a few other decks too. Scan the past ten or so pages. Affinity comes to mind, possibly Goyf Sligh, but I've never played against the deck. The cards usefulness decreases rapidly after turn one and if you're on the draw.



Rally the Horde is too expensive to run.



I actually kind of like this card, especially in goblin heavy metas. If dropped early, it gets out of hand quickly, and the goblin player is going to hate having to swing with everything. It's also useful vs Wrath/Damnation and high creature removal decks.

I don't think it's going to replace Mauler in most lists, but it does have applications.



In addition to the aforementioned Chalice at two, pray really hard.

More seriously, side in crypts/Pyrokinesis. Use the former against Terravore/Loam, and the latter to kill Countryside Crusher before they get an upkeep. Sword of Fire and Ice is also good.

Moons can be effective here depending on how many colors they run. At the very least they make Terravore difficult to cast. I'd probably side out Maguses, since they have a ton of ways to kill him.

Maybe -4 Magus, +4 Crypt, -4 Trinispheres or Maulers, +4 Pyrokinesis. SoFI over Jitte if you expect a lot of Aggro Loam/Dragon Stompy/Other non-Burn Red decks.


Pithing needle naming their cycling lands limits them to topdecking everything. So a moon effect plus needle on tranquil thicket, forgotten cave slows them to a crawl. Although in practice I played a game that turn 1 I played song song, dragon, mauler and I lost this due to devastating dreams. Yet again, a reason to run null brooch, I am seriously going to test this card in the 3 trinisphere spot. Please others do so as well to entertain my madness, I think it can be a huge asset.

[Kuma]

I can see some good and bad things about Null Brooch:

Good

-Allows us to always have Hellbent
-Stops a litany of spells we have to see, Dev Dreams, Wrath, Deed
-Forces opponent to play around it

Bad

-Pithing Needle stops many non creature spells we hate for 1/6th the cost
-Trinisphere hurts most of the other half
-CMC of four hurts consistencey
-Doesn't imprint or pitch
-Can be Needled/Gripped before it's ever used (unless you want to try for six mana before you cast it)
-Sometimes you don't want Hellbent

I guess if you went song, song, Null Brooch, Mauler, you could have stopped D.D., but I don't need to tell you that requiring two Seething Songs to be useful is a bad thing.

[Joe_C]

well the thing is with brooch it could be just a 2 of in the deck. It's a mid/late game sealer against control. Even early it can score us hellbent which is cool. The imprint part isnt an issue due to it taking the place of 3sphere in my list, also not too many people board in needle against dragon stompy unless they saw jitte, chalice at 1 also stops that problem. Im saying I think "for sure it belongs yet" but I'd love to play 10 or so straight games against lanstill to prove it to myself whether or not it makes a difference. Anyone up to testing on MWS????

[Captain Hammer]

Also cool about it; Arc-Slogger can use it to kill anything it can target or quickly knock the opponent's life down. A single shock can take someone from twenty down to nine.

Why settle for a single shock when you can just do three shocks in a row and straight up win the game.

The card is pretty ridiculous with arc slogger if you think about it. 3 mana and 30 cards off the top of your library takes your opponent from 20 to 0 at instant speed!

Lets just hope that the wording on the card is as it says. Right now, it's highly suspicious if the card even exists.

There is only one instance of "Equip" in the orb, and that instance is already used up for another already confirmed equipment.

[Zinch]

yes, 3 mana and 30 cards from your library kills your opponent at instant speed... when you have payed 11 mana and have two cards in play...

this card is a win more. No doubt about this. If you have a beater that attacks unblocked and 6 mana open, i think you don't need this card...

[Alfred]

Yeah, this card seems pretty terrible.

[Captain Hammer]

It's not terrible. It does have a huge target painted on it, and paints a huge target on anything it equips, even a Simian Spirit Guide.

But thats just because it's so threatening.

It's synergy with cards like Grim Lavamacner, Prodigal Pyromacer, Cinder Pyromancer, Viashino Fangtail, Keldon Marauders, Siege Gang Commander, Arc Slogger, Ancient Hydra is solid. But of that list, the only half way decent cards that work decently well in this deck are Siege Gang Commander and Arc Slogger.

[Dark_Cynic87]

You, Turn 1: Tomb, Mox, Deathtouch equipment, go (3 cards in hand).
Them turn 1: Stuff.
You, Turn 2: Draw, Mountain, play Dragon (2 cards in hand).
Them turn 2: Stuff.
You, Turn 3: Draw, Land, Equip to dragon, Drop Chalice @ 1, remove SSG from hand to pump Dragon to 4/3 and swing hellbent (0 cards in hand) for a total of 14 life lost. This gets better by replacing the SSG with a Seething Song.
Them turn 3: Uhh...

That's obviously a great hand, and I didn't even play it out right as Chalice @ 1 needs to happen before you drop a threat because of Needle/StP, but you get the point. It was just a scenario to prove a point.

Top-decking this could suck, but you wouldn't need (not that you would NEED to run it at all, but w/e...) to run it anymore than as a 2-of.

Pce,

--DC

[Mordel]

The above scenario would work just as well with a sword of fire and ice and almost as well with a sword of light and shadow...jitte is obviously monsterous with a doublestriking creature as well. The beauty with the jitte in the above scenario is that you could toss the chalice down a turn earlier.

The new equipment costs one extra to equip and gives the creature no protection from removal whatsoever...it sucks in this deck. Maybe if it was cheaper to cast and/or equip you could argue that you can toss down a 3sphere or a chalice to protect its target a bit, but it costs six total: Sucks.

[Zinch]

In fact, the above scenario won't work with a sword of fire and ice, because you will draw a card from the first striking ability and then the dragon will lose the double stricking...

I'm not defending the deathtouch equip, (in fact I believe SoFaI is so much better), only pointing :wink:

[Mordel]

No, no, no good call. Jitte would be the best equipment for the above scenario for sure anyway.

It allows you drop the chalice earlier which right there gets my vote.

With how rampant swords are seeming to be right now in just about everything that I play, I might be tinkering around with some decks and replacing SoFaI's with SoLaS's, despite the fact that I like the sword's ability a lot more. With Dragonstompy the replacement for the tephraderm that I blow my stack getting out on the first/second turn doesn't always show up in time...the same goes for chalice. Then again Dragonstompy is all about luck anyway, so whatever.

[Kuma]

In fact, the above scenario won't work with a sword of fire and ice, because you will draw a card from the first striking ability and then the dragon will lose the double stricking...

This isn't true. Double strike reads, "This creature does first strike damage and normal damage." First strike damage and normal damage are dealt in separate steps. The dragon would deal first strike damage causing SoFI to trigger, draw you a card, and cause dragon to lose double strike. Then, combat would move to the normal damage step, and since your dragon doesn't have double strike or first strike, it would deal normal combat damage, and you would do SoFI's triggers again.

RPD is beast with equipment.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Pit Dragon will lose double strike and not deal regular combat damage if you have a card in hand when the second helping of damage would go on the stack. That's the biggest complaint with Sword of Fire and Ice.

[Mordel]

Someone have a oracle link handy? Now I am curious...I always just used jitte in dragon stompy. I suck at finding ruling on the mtg site now since it has changed apparently.

Aside from like one person, the general consensus for the new death touch equipment is a resounding cry of "shit", right?

It costs more, will tend to do pretty much the same thing any other equipment would do in regards to winning the game, excluding of course that the creature is not more difficult to kill and yeah...did I mention it costs a whopping six to lay and equip in the same turn? dayumn.

[Wallace]

Someone have a oracle link handy? Now I am curious...I always just used jitte in dragon stompy. I suck at finding ruling on the mtg site now since it has changed apparently.

Aside from like one person, the general consensus for the new death touch equipment is a resounding cry of "shit", right?

It costs more, will tend to do pretty much the same thing any other equipment would do in regards to winning the game, excluding of course that the creature is not more difficult to kill and yeah...did I mention it costs a whopping six to lay and equip in the same turn? dayumn.

I asked this question over in the Rules thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=277777#post277777)and got an answer. The Pit Dragon won't deal regular combat damage if it loses Double Strike.

[Taurelin]

Just read the CompRules:


502.28c Removing double strike from a creature during the first combat damage step will stop it from assigning combat damage in the second combat damage step.

[Suguru]

Looking at the cards the new expansion, Shards of Alara, is going to bring, it has come to my attention this one:

Crucible of Fire 3R
Enchantment Rare
Dragon creatures you control get +3/+3.

If its casting cost had been 2R the card would have been perfect. But I think it is worth considering it.
Let's analyze it. It would come to be in the place of the equipments (Jitte or SoFI). Its advantage is it can be imprinted into the Chrome mox for mana. Its casting mana cost is the same than if yoy cast and equip a Jitte in the same turn.

But the good thing it has is it not only pumps your RPD, but also the Taurean Mauler!!

And, even I may (and will) be accused of sacrilegy, it could be worth thinking about replacing Slogger for another dragon, such as Covetous Dragon, or even the Hunted Dragon (with the same converted mana cost).

What do you think about it?

[Zork]

That card is:

- A bad topdeck.
- Not as good as any of the equipment that people run.
- Forcing you to run subpar creatures (not slogger) to get the full effect.

I am not impressed.

[Tacosnape]

How often would you rather have Crucible of Fire instead of, say, a second Dragon? Virtually never is pretty much what I come up with. Maybe if you were facing Ghostly Prisons or Elephant Grass, but you lose to decks with Elephant Grass anyway.

[Illissius]

So this came up in the other thread: Goblin Assault?

Goblin Assault
:2::r:
Enchantment
At the beginning of your upkeep, put a 1/1 red Goblin creature token with haste into play.
Goblin creatures attack each turn if able.

Taurean Mauler seems like the obvious comparison. Both of them suck as late game topdecks. In the early game, Mauler is faster, but Assault is harder to deal with. Assault is great with equipment, but can't stop a Lackey like Mauler can. (Both are good times against Warren Weirding). And note that the last ability doesn't only apply to your own Goblins.

"Hit you fast with some big creatures" seems much more in the Dragon Stompy spirit than "grow an army of tokens", but it seems worth considering.

[Tacosnape]

So this came up in the other thread: Goblin Assault?

Goblin Assault
:2::r:
Enchantment
At the beginning of your upkeep, put a 1/1 red Goblin creature token with haste into play.
Goblin creatures attack each turn if able.

Taurean Mauler seems like the obvious comparison. Both of them suck as late game topdecks. In the early game, Mauler is faster, but Assault is much harder to deal with. Assault is great with equipment, but can't stop a Lackey like Mauler can. (Both are good times against Warren Weirding). And note that the last ability doesn't only apply to your own Goblins.

6 lesbian points for a logical suggestion.

I've been testing this, actually. For the same reasons you like it. It fits right into our curve. It's a fantastic early drop, and the ability to force Goblins to swing into you is pretty awesome (Though I'm not sure it's better than Mauler giving you Warren Weirding protection). It's also mayhem against certain control decks. It's also nuts with Jitte. It gives you a Jitte carrier every turn. This can suck up your mana, though.

That said, don't let the amazing Airdrop Condor synergy fool you (Edit: Yes, this is a joke, people.) I'm still semi underwhelmed by it. You obviously can't run it alongside Mauler (Both due to space and that Mauler has to swing), so it's it or Mauler, and while neither one exactly fills me with the prospect of joy, Mauler's been a little more consistent. And because the little dudes have to swing every turn, they can sit there with a Tarmogoyf and eat them all day.

And while you can make the argument that it's one less Tarmogoyf they're swinging at you with, the Goblin Assault is also one less threat you're swinging at them with.

I'm going to keep playing around with it, though.

[Mordel]

Goblin assault seems pretty cool in theory, but I don't like the fact that if I am playing against aggro and I have pretty much nothing else to play as far as creatures are concerned, I flop assault and then my opponent plays some dork, I basically ended up playing a 1/1 for three...or more specifically a weird sort of creature control card because my opponent is less likely to swing with the dork.

I suppose that isn't bad, but I'd rather have something like a mauler or raiders that just sort of punches through dorks and connects for a decent amount.

I guess it comes down to if you are expecting a bunch of control or not.
Assault seems like a good possible sideboard card for sure though.

[Tacosnape]

It's also worth noting that some of Mauler's slots may be fighting with Trinisphere for awhile until everybody and his dog stops playing with Ad Nauseum storm decks.

[Mordel]

That's very, very true. I have been toying around with maulers in the spot of a combination of 3spheres and raiders, though the trade is going to have to be more concrete now, rather than a half-assed blend of the two.

Has anyone been testing the match with ad nauseum decks at all? I haven't played against any yet, but it strikes me as something that could be disrupted by a decent damage spike early in the game.

With minor adjustments one could throw some shrapnel blasts in their sideboard for the match. Mid combo you could catch them with their pants down with five to the dome. Another card I thought about was fireblast, but two mountains being sacced is not necessarily easy to support. Pyrokenesis came to mind too, but that presents the problem of having to hold two cards in your hand. With the ease of adding a set of furnaces and already existent chromos a shrapnel would be the easiest to pull off probably.

Then again, if an ad nauseum deck actually gets around to going off, you're probably fucked anyway.

edit: I just looked at a few ad naus lists...spell shock might have a place in the sideboard now? The problem I see with that though is that it would be competing with 3sphere, moon(not a great play against a lot of the lists I have seen after the first game) and CotV. I don't really think ad naus matches will be terribly different from other storm deck matches though. At least not from looking at the decks. Reach seems like the better of the solutions for such a deck.

Just ramblings I guess.

[Joe_C]

That's very, very true. I have been toying around with maulers in the spot of a combination of 3spheres and raiders, though the trade is going to have to be more concrete now, rather than a half-assed blend of the two.

Has anyone been testing the match with ad nauseum decks at all? I haven't played against any yet, but it strikes me as something that could be disrupted by a decent damage spike early in the game.

With minor adjustments one could throw some shrapnel blasts in their sideboard for the match. Mid combo you could catch them with their pants down with five to the dome. Another card I thought about was fireblast, but two mountains being sacced is not necessarily easy to support. Pyrokenesis came to mind too, but that presents the problem of having to hold two cards in your hand. With the ease of adding a set of furnaces and already existent chromos a shrapnel would be the easiest to pull off probably.

Then again, if an ad nauseum deck actually gets around to going off, you're probably fucked anyway.

Just ramblings I guess.

pyrokinesis cannot target opponents, so thats no good. 4 Triniphere and maybe sphere of resistance would be in abundance if the world goes combo all of a sudden

[Tacosnape]

That's very, very true. I have been toying around with maulers in the spot of a combination of 3spheres and raiders, though the trade is going to have to be more concrete now, rather than a half-assed blend of the two.

Has anyone been testing the match with ad nauseum decks at all? I haven't played against any yet, but it strikes me as something that could be disrupted by a decent damage spike early in the game.

With minor adjustments one could throw some shrapnel blasts in their sideboard for the match. Mid combo you could catch them with their pants down with five to the dome. Another card I thought about was fireblast, but two mountains being sacced is not necessarily easy to support. Pyrokenesis came to mind too, but that presents the problem of having to hold two cards in your hand. With the ease of adding a set of furnaces and already existent chromos a shrapnel would be the easiest to pull off probably.

Then again, if an ad nauseum deck actually gets around to going off, you're probably fucked anyway.

Just ramblings I guess.

Shrapnel Blast is an awful idea. Not only do we not run Covetous Dragon based on the concept that we don't always have an artifact, we also don't EVER leave mana open.

Trinisphere is going to keep most of those decks from easily resolving Ad Nauseum, and even if they do, they still probably won't be able to go off until the next turn. While I have yet to test it more than a couple games just messing around, the match should still be as good/bad as it was. Chalice for 1 becomes more appropriate more often than it used to be versus Chal 2 or Chal-0, as Dark Ritual is the surest path to a fast Ad Nauseum and Chal-2 will no longer shut off all the deck's avenues to a kill (Ad Nauseum, lots of acceleration, Tendrils).

Chalice, Trinisphere, and fast large creatures are the path to victory here.

[Joe_C]

has anyone tried my suggestion of null brooch at all? I havent had the opportunity to play against any decks I would want to use it against. I am running it in my board as a "two of" in instead of jittes. Using the same list I took 4th with this past weekend

[Fuzzy]

has anyone tried my suggestion of null brooch at all? I havent had the opportunity to play against any decks I would want to use it against. I am running it in my board as a "two of" in instead of jittes. Using the same list I took 4th with this past weekend

BtW, anyone tried Citadel of Pain on SB?

[Captain Hammer]

edit: I just looked at a few ad naus lists...spell shock might have a place in the sideboard now?

Is there any reason to play Spellshock over Pyrostatic Pillar?

Pyrostatic Pillar can be played off of a Mox or SSG and Mountain turn one even if you don't have a two mana land in hand. That's very relevent against fast combo.

Also, it can be sided in versus decks like Threshold where Spellshock wouldn't be worth brining in (since it hurts you too and you already lose enough life to Ancient Tombs and such as is).

[Zork]

@Null Brooch: I love this card, but I'm not sure it fits into an aggro deck, even if it gets you Hellbent automatically. Where would you board it in?

@Citadel of Pain: This seems terrible, as most control decks have mana sinks. 99% of the time, I would rather just have a threat, probably an uncounterable one like Sulfur Elemental.

[Joe_C]

[QUOTE=Zork;278261]@Null Brooch: I love this card, but I'm not sure it fits into an aggro deck, even if it gets you Hellbent automatically. Where would you board it in?QUOTE]


I would really like brooch against landstill. In that matchup I would take out my 3 maindecked trinispheres and put in the 2 brooch and my 4th blood moon.

[deviant]

[QUOTE=Zork;278261]@Null Brooch: I love this card, but I'm not sure it fits into an aggro deck, even if it gets you Hellbent automatically. Where would you board it in?QUOTE]


I would really like brooch against landstill. In that matchup I would take out my 3 maindecked trinispheres and put in the 2 brooch and my 4th blood moon.

I really like Null Brooch as a card, and to me this does not cry out "major suckage", so why don't you test this and report back to us like a champ?
If you come back saying "this new sb shit I have improved my landstill mu", you sure as hell get my full attention. (now, you asking if anyone likes null brooch, took me like three mentioning of the card to even bother checking it out, yes I know I'm incredibly lazy)

For the record, I still do not think I'd sb this over all the other shit I can't fit in there :/

And as far as the "goblin-blossom" goes, "me no likey" is where I'm at atm.
I've also dropped the Jittes and a mauler for Trinispheres because just like Taco said, people ARE going to try to "storm the format" now. Oh, I'm mentioning this because I think I've said "I hate trini" in almost every post I've made here for the previous six months. So yes, I think it's correct to re-md it for the moment :(

[DevilishEyes]

I found another card that actually gave me some kind of thrill for fitting it into this deck. It's called Elkin Lair, a World Enchantment Rare from Visions

Elkin Lair :3: :r:
World Enchantment
At the beginning of each player's upkeep, that player removes a card at random in his or her hand from the game. The player may play that card this turn. At end of turn, if the player hasn't played the card, he or she puts it into his or her graveyard.

It COULD be highly disruptive for the opponent, forcing him to play keycards without actual use, and may force him to discard cards he would have put to good use if he had the mana. For us, it can be used to achieve Hellbent faster, that Slogger in your hand won't clog it up with this one in play.

The manacost isn't that nasty either, :3: :r: isn't that hard and can be played at turn two, if necesary. The only real problem is, that it doesn't do anything later in the game, perhaps killing of some counterspells. Oh, and this one CAN be pitched to Pyrokinesis ánd Chrome Mox ^^. Maybe, if there's some space left in the mainboard, this card could be used quite well!

Let me know what you think.

[surly]

I haven't played DS for about half a year, so i wanted to get some help before picking it up again ... i played a similar list like the one bruenor posted on page 78.

1.) Why is nobody playing SoFaI anymore? Is Jitte stictly better or are there MU's where Sword would be the better deal? I'm thinking about a 1-2 Jitte / 1 Sword Split MD without any Jittes in the board - should i cut the Sword?

2.) Although I'm quite sure that DS would be a good Metachoice, here's the breakdown of our latest tournament:

Top 8:

1. Gwb Survival
2. MUC
3. RG-Aggro-Loam
4. Ugr Threshold
5. Uwb Landstill
6. Ugr Threshold
7. Hierarch-Control
8. Solidarity

Deckbreakdown:

Survival: 1
Loam: 1
MUC: 1
Landstill: 1
Threshold: 2
Goblins: 2
Pox: 2
Staxx: 1
Counter-Nought: 2
Affinity: 1
Belcher: 1
TES: 2
Eternal Garden: 1
Dredge: 1
Solidarity: 1
Rogue: 3

.... am I wrong? Sure, there are two Pox Decks around, but except those i think DS should have a 50:50 or better MU against the field...

thx, surly

[Zork]

MUC, Pox, Loam, and Survival are all not easy matchups as well.

I don't know about Eternal Garden, but Rogue decks also often do well against us.

[Tacosnape]

MUC, Pox, Loam, and Survival are all not easy matchups as well.

I don't know about Eternal Garden, but Rogue decks also often do well against us.

Loam and Survival actually aren't all that bad depending on the builds. Loam depends on who gets the more explosive start (And in your case, if you get a Dragon, because evasion is the best way to win this matchup and keep them from stabilizing). Survival depends largely on their manabase and what colors they run. Chalice for 1 shuts down a -lot- of Survival's better prospects against some builds, and Pithing Needle from the board helps.

I've always made the point that MUC isn't that bad either. It's really not. MUC isn't even close to being one of Dragon Stompy's worst matchups. If you can stop Vedalken Shackles you'll win, and it's not uncommon to just go Threat, Threat/Swing, Threat/Swing/Swing, Pay the 2 to swing through Propaganda, Kill you. I'm not saying MUC is favorable or anything, I'm just making the point that it's quite winnable. It's nowhere near like facing Enchantress.

Pox, on the other hand, is really tough. Your best hope is to get enough guys down to mess with their math, and hopefully keep a Hellbent guy or a Slogger going. A lot of Pox depends on the skill of the player and how well you know the deck. Years of playing both as and against Pox has taught me to pretty much always know what a Pox player is holding, and what I should play when to minimize my losses. And minimizing your losses is your key. Sometimes Pox will just steamroll you, but a lot of times a couple subtle plays can let you hang on to games you could easily lose, or win games you shouldn't.

[Mordel]

@Capt Hammer:

Good call, I actually forgot about pyrostatic pillar almost entirely.

[Zork]

Aggro Loam is favorable against us and a resolved Survival is pretty much GG unless you (postboard) draw one of your 4 needles. Hence why I said not easy instead of bad.

And you agree that MUC is a bad matchup? I don't know what you are arguing here.

[Mayk0l]

I've always made the point that MUC isn't that bad either. It's really not. MUC isn't even close to being one of Dragon Stompy's worst matchups. If you can stop Vedalken Shackles you'll win, and it's not uncommon to just go Threat, Threat/Swing, Threat/Swing/Swing, Pay the 2 to swing through Propaganda, Kill you. I'm not saying MUC is favorable or anything, I'm just making the point that it's quite winnable. It's nowhere near like facing Enchantress.


It's worse than you portray here. I mean, just as easily I can say they will Counter, Counter and drop Shackles and it's gg. Also, stop the Shackles? How are you doing that game 1?
Game 2 we don't pack REB, and they board 8 BEB's. Good luck with that one. I've never won a match against MUC. If I go for Chalice they have Keg. If I go for threats they will drop Shackles.

[Mordel]

I haven't played against muc with dragonstompy, but I know as someone who has played with muc that the matchup requires a great degree of horrible luck for dragonstompy to win. The strongest plays for this deck are in the first few turns of the game and playing around daze, fow, force spike, disrupts and of course counterspells does not make those signature plays easy to make.

To make it a favorable matchup, you would have to do a lot of sideboarding tinkering. The question is would it really be worth it?

[Hopo]

If your meta thinks that it's necessary to address SB cards for MUC, Boil is quite effective. It being an instant is huge, as they basically need to have fow in order to stop that if you cast it in response to an EOT draw spell. Or to shackles activation.

[DevilishEyes]

I found another card that actually gave me some kind of thrill for fitting it into this deck. It's called Elkin Lair, a World Enchantment Rare from Visions

Elkin Lair :3: :r:
World Enchantment
At the beginning of each player's upkeep, that player removes a card at random in his or her hand from the game. The player may play that card this turn. At end of turn, if the player hasn't played the card, he or she puts it into his or her graveyard.

It COULD be highly disruptive for the opponent, forcing him to play keycards without actual use, and may force him to discard cards he would have put to good use if he had the mana. For us, it can be used to achieve Hellbent faster, that Slogger in your hand won't clog it up with this one in play.

The manacost isn't that nasty either, :3: :r: isn't that hard and can be played at turn two, if necesary. The only real problem is, that it doesn't do anything later in the game, perhaps killing of some counterspells. Oh, and this one CAN be pitched to Pyrokinesis ánd Chrome Mox ^^. Maybe, if there's some space left in the mainboard, this card could be used quite well!

Let me know what you think.
How come everybody simply ignored my post?

[Zork]

Elkin Lair is bad. It does not fit into a good slot on our curve (that vs. Dragon is an easy choice) and puts the magnitude of its disruption into the hands of the opponent. Yeah, occasionally it might possibly force a player to lose a card, but that card will be of his choosing.

I would much rather someone be forced to play Brainstorm to either find an answer to my game-winning creature or lose to it than to maybe play Brainstorm because I have an enchantment on the board that is not killing anyone.

Then, looking at it as a purely disruptive piece, it falls inferior before the might of 8 moons, chalice, needle, and 3sphere. It would be 100% a SB card (vs aggro this would be mox-fodder only... provided you draw a mox). Who would this card be good against? Maybe thresh, landstill, MUC...? Against those decks, I usually already have trouble figuring out what to board in because I don't have a whole lot of room (fyi, boarding out more than 1-2 threats is maximal loss of density).

[Zinch]

Because is a very very situational card, that costs 4 mana and does nothing against a lot of decks (aggro in general) and DS is already a uncosistent deck, so is a bad plan...

[Suguru]

Looking for some advise on how to play DS, here are two questions:

In case you don't know what deck is playing your opponent, what would you choose? A turn 1 Trini, or a Turn 1 Moon effect? I guess the answer will be a Moon effect, because Trini will just be GG in a storm deck, while an early Moon effect will be GG in every deck which depends on fetch/duals (much more frequent).

The second is a little difficult for me to answer: would you keep a hand with a possible turn 2 Moon effect if you don't have anything else to back it? (For example Mount, Mount, Seething, SSG, Moon, Mount, Mox).

I am not sure about those hands with a chance to drop a Moon effect (or even a RPD or Slogger) in second turn without nothing else to back it up, and therefore entering an early Top-deck mode. In case your opponent casts a turn 1 Thoughtseize, you're over...

What would you do?

[Sanguine Voyeur]

In case you don't know what deck is playing your opponent, what would you choose?I would play Trinisphere first, assuming you have the mana to keep going after. Trinisphere allows you to resolve the Moon next turn without fear of counter spells.
would you keep a hand with a possible turn 2 Moon effect if you don't have anything else to back it? (For example Mount, Mount, Seething, SSG, Moon, Mount, Mox).No. A single Moon will only slow them down. Without any pressure, the disruption is worthless.

[Suguru]

I would play Trinisphere first, assuming you have the mana to keep going after. Trinisphere allows you to resolve the Moon next turn without fear of counter spells.

OK, so let's assume we don't have the mana to keep going after (i.e. you have a SSG to play it turn 1, but you won't have it later). Would you still play Trini?


No. A single Moon will only slow them down. Without any pressure, the disruption is worthless.

Ok, but let's take into account it will slow down some decks, and will destroy some other decks... Anyway, if it is countered/discarded, you are lost...

[gieli0]

OK, so let's assume we don't have the mana to keep going after (i.e. you have a SSG to play it turn 1, but you won't have it later). Would you still play Trini?

I would still play trini because you win some turns.


Ok, but let's take into account it will slow down some decks, and will destroy some other decks... Anyway, if it is countered/discarded, you are lost...

I would mull you always need a thread 2 win and you can't slow your opponent in any other way than moon so it is a 2 trisky hand

[Sanguine Voyeur]

OK, so let's assume we don't have the mana to keep going after (i.e. you have a SSG to play it turn 1, but you won't have it later). Would you still play Trini?If you don't have the mana to keep going, you shouldn't damn yourself with Trnisphere. Blood Moon can actually help you ramp up to relevant mana by keeping your Cities in play.
Ok, but let's take into account it will slow down some decks, and will destroy some other decks... Anyway, if it is countered/discarded, you are lost...It may slow the opponent, but you'll be forcing yourself into top deck mode turn two. Blood Moon almost never wins games alone and sometimes doesn't help at all.

[Maveric78f]

Dragon Stompy looks quite good in a metagame dominated with Ad Nauseam combos. MD Chalice, trinisphere and moon effects are very good against these decks. Even better, DS is supposed to be good against AN deck predators: heavy counterbalance based control decks.

Faerie Stompy is quite good too, but trinisphere is really the spell that makes the difference, more than Force of Will to my mind.

What do you think?

[Joe_C]

Dragon Stompy looks quite good in a metagame dominated with Ad Nauseam combos. MD Chalice, trinisphere and moon effects are very good against these decks. Even better, DS is supposed to be good against AN deck predators: heavy counterbalance based control decks.

Faerie Stompy is quite good too, but trinisphere is really the spell that makes the difference, more than Force of Will to my mind.

What do you think?


I would have to agree... 3sphere and pyrostatic pillar would both be in my board if I was fearing that much combo. Moon effects are still HUGE in the format at this time. Chalice is still very strong, Im loving the decks chances to top8 again for me in November. Im looking forward to getting some real testing with Null Brooch.

[Arsenal]

So, are Trinispheres 100% maindeck necessasry? I have 3x in my board, and really don't want to cut anything to get them in the main.

[Dark_Cynic87]

No, Trini can stay in the board. It's most useful against combo, but has applications against control builds to a lesser extent. I'd rather run 4 Trini total than 8 moon effects. I'd drop a moon effect for a 4th Trini.

Pce,

--DC

[Zach Tartell]

So, are Trinispheres 100% maindeck necessasry? I have 3x in my board, and really don't want to cut anything to get them in the main.

They are by no means necessary. If you're in a Combo or Thresh heavy meat I'd recommend them. Otherwise, just keep them in the board.

I feel like their spots, along with those of the 7th and 8th Blood Moon are kind of liquid (in that they slide between the board and the maindeck pretty frequently and easily).

[Tacosnape]

They are by no means necessary. If you're in a Combo or Thresh heavy meat I'd recommend them. Otherwise, just keep them in the board.

I feel like their spots, along with those of the 7th and 8th Blood Moon are kind of liquid (in that they slide between the board and the maindeck pretty frequently and easily).

^^^^ I'm with sexy.
| | | |

I still don't maindeck Trinisphere. I don't -want- to maindeck Trinisphere out of principle that it really doesn't sync with the deck well at -all-. But I will say that in certain metagames you need it now, and there's absolutely no way you shouldn't be packing four in your sideboard in blind metagames with combo rampant.

[Arsenal]

That's how I feel. I know I need it, but I don't want it anywhere near me as it just doesn't mesh well with everything else. I'll up my SB 3sphere up to 4x. Good advice guys, thanks.

For reference:

10 Mountain
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb

2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Chrome Mox
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Seething Song
4 Blood Moon

4 Gathan Raiders
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Taurean Mauler
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Arc-Slogger
4 Simian Spirit Guide

SB:
4 Trinisphere
4 Pithing Needle
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pyroclasm
1 Umezawa's Jitte

[Rinello]

I run


// Lands
10 [MM] Mountain (4)
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors

// Creatures
4 [DIS] Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 [FUT] Gathan Raiders
4 [MR] Arc-Slogger
4 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
4 [MOR] Taurean Mauler

// Spells
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MR] Seething Song
2 [8E] Blood Moon
4 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [8E] Blood Moon
SB: 4 [AL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 2 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 4 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [CH] Tormod's Crypt

And I always loved 4x Jitte.
With 24 threats I can clean the board all day, fixin the only thing this decks lacks in: Removal.
I love to drop CotV @1 and see my face_stabbed opponent crying as he reveals Lightnin Bolt, Brainstorm or StP, but I feel that without 4x Jitte we can still suck vs Tombstalker and such.
Some people would rather go with 2 jitte + 2 SoF&I, but I won too many games with Song=> Magus/Jitte to drop 2 of them for something with low sinergy like SoF&I.
Also I play in a very aggro meta, so a few times Jitte removes a Jitte and that's a plus.
The only con is Jitte is colourless.
Why there is no Red Jitte in Shards of Alara? WHY???? è__é


Just my 2 eurocent.

[Arsenal]

I think I'm going to replace Tormod's with Relic in all my decks that currently run Tormod's. Is there any good reason to play Tormod's anymore?

@ Rinello

I only count 24 threats, and 4 of those, Simian Spirit Guide, will most likely be used as mana fodder, and who knows what you'll be imprinting on a Chrome Mox, so it's closer to 20-22 threats in actual testing.

20-22 threats is still enough for 4x Jittes, but half of those threats are already beefy by themselves (hellbent Raiders & Pit-Dragon, and Slogger). I think 4x Jitte is slightly overkill unless your meta is critter dominant.

[Tacosnape]

Arsenal's list versus Rinello's maindeck list is strictly metagame. Although I will say that the problem with quad Jitte is that on occasion one's going to clog up your hand and mess with Hellbent, despite having Gathan Raiders around to pitch one to. Excess Blood Moons can not only pitch to Gathan Raiders, they can imprint on Chrome Mox, or just flat out be hardcast.

For the record, I run an identical list to Arsenal with Pyrokinesis over Pyroclasm in the sideboard.


I think I'm going to replace Tormod's with Relic in all my decks that currently run Tormod's. Is there any good reason to play Tormod's anymore?

Tormod's comes in under Chalice for 1. Tormod's also doesn't require you leave a mana open to detonate in full force. Relic's extent of awesomeness is that it owns Tarmogoyf, but you ironically shouldn't be boarding in yard hate against anything that runs Tarmogoyf anyway. And Dragon Stompy is not a deck that ever wants to leave mana open. Ever. Stick with Crypt. Free spells are insanely underrated in Legacy. Which is why I run both Crypt and Kinesis over their alternatives.

[Arsenal]

Taco, how do you typically SB versus the various archetypes you run across?

[Tacosnape]

Taco, how do you typically SB versus the various archetypes you run across?

There's probably too many matchups to list, especially with variants of decks changing things. I'll offer some basics though. For frame of reference, here's my list.

10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song

4 Arc-Slogger
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Taurean Mauler

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Blood Moon
2 Umezawa's Jitte

SB:
4 Pithing Needle
4 Trinisphere
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Umezawa's Jitte

I'm not going to give exact lists of what to board out, as it varies heavily on the build and whether you're going first or second on the upcoming game. I will give you ideas of what you want in and what your plan is, though.

Goblins: You want Pyrokinesis and Jitte. This will almost always involve a -4/+4 swap for the Blood Moons. Needle can stop Vial, Fanatic, Siege Gang, etc, but even on the draw it's questionable that it's better than Chalice. Try it if you want Vial out of the picture.

Threshold: You want Trinispheres. You -don't- want Crypts. Don't fret Tarmogoyfs. Make your cuts based on how useful Blood Moon is against the build you're playing.

Survival: While there's six billion builds of this, the universal constant is that you want Pithing Needle. Don't be afraid to keep Chalice in on top of it, either. Pyrokinesis and Blood Moon's importance varies on the opponents' build. You don't want Crypt or Trinisphere.

Landstill: The only real constant is that you don't want Umezawa's Jitte here, so cut it. Consider Needle if you're facing Deeds. Consider Trinisphere if they're running a build that automatically scoops to a resolved Moon under any circumstances. Depending on their builds, you may consider cutting cards to manage Needles or Trinispheres 3-4. SSG is a decent cut if you need more Needle, as it's the only guy who can't swing through a factory ever. If you want to try and win the power Moon route via Trinispheres, Mauler's your better cut as you'll want your SSG's for speed.

Painter: Regardless of whether it's Epic or Imperial, Needle Grindstone and Pyrokinesis the shit out of a Servant, as blasts can wreck your day. Don't be afraid to drop Chal-1 on top of a Needle, but an early Chal-2 is also solid. Be careful about overboarding against Epic lest their Goyf/Stalker plan ruin your day. Don't ever cut Sloggers here, as they shine against both builds, picking off small red nuisances or Confidants.

Ichorid: Crypts are good and replace Jittes. Trinispheres can be but probably aren't, as all they deal with that a Moon doesn't is Cabal Therapy flashbacks. Needles and Pyrokinesis both have their moments, but you'll be hard pressed to find slots for them. Consider Kinesis over Chalice if you're going second.

I'll post more later if anyone has specific matchup questions.

[Al-ucard]

what do you think about this list?

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20145

One point I never liked of this deck is the fact that I have too bad luck and I never draw enough lands, maybe this is a good list to start with and make a more stable version...

Thoughts?

[Tacosnape]

what do you think about this list?

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20145

One point I never liked of this deck is the fact that I have too bad luck and I never draw enough lands, maybe this is a good list to start with and make a more stable version...

Thoughts?

That's awful. I may never be able to get an erection again thanks to that decklist.

Chrome Mox -and- Mox Diamond is an awful idea. The creature selection is awful. The triple and quintuple red mana symbols is awful. Awful.

If you want to draw more land, just cut a Mauler or a Moon or a Jitte for an extra land or something. There's no need to make the deck a pile.

[NecroYawgmoth]

...and so Taco don't plays 4 Pyrokinesis anymore... :laugh:

I have a huge problem with LS-Decks 2-4 colored...
They are Omni, they kill me all the time, ...any tips/suggestions what I could do??

Maybe playing Demonfire or something???

YawG

[Zork]

Landstill has a harder time dealing with Sulfur Elemental than Maulers (if you play Mauler), and one of the best threats possible against landstill is rAkroma. 2 should do it if you have a really heavy LS meta, but don't play any more than that since it is not as strong against other decks. Also a note: if you are playing Sulfur's and rAkroma, consider adding a sword or two to the usual compliment of jitte's.

Demonfire is a possability, but it is less good aginst non-landstill decks that rAkroma.

[Arsenal]

I used to be an advocate for Sulfur > Mauler, but through testing, I've come to realize Sulfur's advantages over Mauler are quite narrow whereas Mauler's growing strength is just a ticking time bomb your opponent, no matter what he's playing, MUST answer.

EDIT: I agree that Sulfur may shine in certain matchups, but overall, I know prefer Mauler in a blind meta.

[Joe_C]

what do you think about this list?

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20145

One point I never liked of this deck is the fact that I have too bad luck and I never draw enough lands, maybe this is a good list to start with and make a more stable version...

Thoughts?

this looks terrible, I 2nd Taco's comments on this. Running even more mana intensive cards than the standard lists seems outlandish.

I have not had problems drawing lands, I have had problems drawing no colored sources in my opening hand(which seems weird right(?) we have 18 ways to produce red on turn 1 and i get hands with tomb, tomb, city etc...), or drawing multiple lands when I really need a threat off the top of my deck.

Wrath of god purely owns this deck. Unless you can man up the board again quickly they cast wrath=you lose. I have been toying with null brooch, man if it was a 3cc card it would totally be BOSS in this deck, but at 4 mana, it has not tested as well as I hope. I might take it for a run at my next tourney, maybe it will surprise me and perform

[Tacosnape]

Landstill packing Wrath is problematic. Most Chalice Aggro decks can actually get away with trying to ride a single threat to victory. However, because of the nature of the deck (IE, Hellbent), you can't easily not walk into a Wrath. You usually have to play your shit and hit them in the mouth as hard and as fast as possible and hope for the best.

The bright side of this is that Wrath is incredibly hard to cast with a Moon effect on the table.

I've never found Landstill to be unwinnable. Certain versions are far more unfavorable, obviously, but I think the best solution to Landstill is just to run a large number of threats, as I think anything you do to fix the matchup at this point weakens the deck's other matchups.

There's always original Dragon Stompy 1.0 tech in Boil, though, if you want to worry that much about it.

[Joe_C]

Landstill packing Wrath is problematic. Most Chalice Aggro decks can actually get away with trying to ride a single threat to victory. However, because of the nature of the deck (IE, Hellbent), you can't easily not walk into a Wrath. You usually have to play your shit and hit them in the mouth as hard and as fast as possible and hope for the best.

The bright side of this is that Wrath is incredibly hard to cast with a Moon effect on the table.

I've never found Landstill to be unwinnable. Certain versions are far more unfavorable, obviously, but I think the best solution to Landstill is just to run a large number of threats, as I think anything you do to fix the matchup at this point weakens the deck's other matchups.

There's always original Dragon Stompy 1.0 tech in Boil, though, if you want to worry that much about it.


playing against 3 color landstill that runs a shitload of basics walks right around blood moon. Aside from the fact that having u/b/w available =EE for 3. I played against a very stable mana based landstill deck that did not even care about my moon effects. Although he credited the match to him drawing alot of his basics, in the long game he had me done anyways. True that gearing the deck to beat landstill with thrash the otherwise good matchups, I just hope to have to face 4 color landstill if I am going to play against landstill at all.

[ParkerLewis]

playing against 3 color landstill that runs a shitload of basics walks right around blood moon. Aside from the fact that having u/b/w available =EE for 3. I played against a very stable mana based landstill deck that did not even care about my moon effects. Although he credited the match to him drawing alot of his basics, in the long game he had me done anyways. True that gearing the deck to beat landstill with thrash the otherwise good matchups, I just hope to have to face 4 color landstill if I am going to play against landstill at all.

Depends on the "shitload"... It's not like they can support more than 5-6 basics, if they want to still fit mishras and either other manlands or wastelands.

If it's 5+, you'll usually have trouble if you can't drop the blood moon before their second land drop, with a dragon getting the second color.

On the other hand, if they run 4 or less, and you manage to drop a blood moon early enough (ie before their second land drop), they'll have a hard time getting all their colors.

[Tacosnape]

Depends on the "shitload"... It's not like they can support more than 5-6 basics, if they want to still fit mishras and either other manlands or wastelands. That's 5-6 basics at most, distributed among 3 different colors.

If you manage to drop a blood moon early enough (ie hopefully before their second land drop), they simply can't get all their colors unless they're lucky as hell, or destroy it beforehand.

This is pretty much exactly what I was going to say. Parker's more or less right. Most Landstill decks don't pack more than four basics. And a turn one Moon means you shut off their fetches from getting them. And even if not, they still need two white to nail a Wrath or Humility. A turn one moon on the draw / turn two on the play is often good enough to pull this off.

If you're playing against a Landstill player that's for some reason running six or more basics, then you're playing against a suboptimal Landstill build. And it's well known that Dragon Stompy's worst matchup is jank.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

...they'll have a hard time getting all their colors.Unless they're prepared. If they can get a single Island or Plains, like from a fetchland, the can remove a Moon.

[Rinello]

I'll offer some basics though. For frame of reference, here's my list.

I'll post more later if anyone has specific matchup questions.

Question: Can I have your babies?

Ok, rly: What can I board against random aggro stuff? In my meta I have A LOT of aggro decks and a strange Cataclysm White Weenie..
Plus I scoop if I can't see Dragon or Slogger when a Stalker comes down from a random deck..
Is there any chance to have some removal other than Pyrokinesis?

[Arsenal]

^
It sounds like you face alot of aggro mono-colored decks, or at least decks with lots of basics. Does not bode well for DS. Also, DS loses to random junk all the time, so don't despair. Perhaps move FTK back into a slot if there truly is that much aggro running around?

[Julian23]

^
It sounds like you face alot of aggro mono-colored decks, or at least decks with lots of basics. Does not bode well for DS. Also, DS loses to random junk all the time, so don't despair. Perhaps move FTK back into a slot if there truly is that much aggro running around?

FTK, Pyroclasm, Powder Keg, Jitte. Still this transformates this deck into something it definitely isn't. Unless you insist on DS you might wanna try a different deck. Something like Enchantress really crushes a lot of aggro decks.

[slylie]

Ichorid: Crypts are good and replace Jittes. Trinispheres can be but probably aren't, as all they deal with that a Moon doesn't is Cabal Therapy flashbacks. Needles and Pyrokinesis both have their moments, but you'll be hard pressed to find slots for them. Consider Kinesis over Chalice if you're going second.



Thanks for the input, only thing is I find trinisphere way more effective against ichorid. On the play a turn 1 trinisphere is really really hard on them. They can't play LED, they can't play unmask, they can't flashback or hardcast therapy, careful study, breakthrough, putrid imp, ect until they draw their 3rd land, which concidering most builds only run 11 should be long enough for you to kill them. Even on the draw if they get a grave full of creatures a resolved trinisphere means they will have a hard time playing their therapies, deep a or return.

[Illissius]

What about using Mox Diamond to splash for black, for Jagged Poppet and Shriekmaw? Poppet costs 1CC which is Pretty Bad, but the effect seems stupid powerful when it connects. And Shriekmaw is just good.

(For more on Diamond, see here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=283858&postcount=851). Executive summary: Mox Diamond is card disadvantage, but so was Chrome Mox. You play Chrome Moxen instead of lands and pitch spells to it, while you play Mox Diamonds instead of spells and pitch lands to it, so it ends up being a wash. Your topdecks are worse, but it's not a huge deal. However, Diamond makes splashing colors a Hell of a lot easier. You get to play a fetch+duals manabase in 14 colored lands, along with the Diamonds, and none of the awkwardness Chrome Mox has with multiple colors. Threshold uses 18 colored sources to play four colors.)

I was thinking of maybe something like this:

4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Jagged Poppet
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
3 Arc-Slogger
3 Shriekmaw
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Seething Song
4 Mox Diamond
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Badlands
6 Mountain
1 Swamp

[Nihil Credo]

Jagged Poppet is *awful*, as much in Legacy as it was in T2. It's good with Hellbent (but not that good; it's still a 3/4 that gets blocked by Goyf all day long) and absolutely terrible without it; the Hellbent cards that DS currently runs are insanely powerful with Hellbent and OK without it.

Also, you want to run a two-colour Stompy deck, start with the ones that don't maindeck Moons. I tried that, and fetching the basic Swamp is often just not possible. Or, as an alternative option (this one I haven't explored), splash Green so you have access to the other set of Spirit Guides to help cast spells under Moon.

[Tacosnape]

I'd actually run Demon's Jester over Jagged Poppet. Evasion is sexy. Just ask Faerie Stompy.

Also, I still don't approve of Mox Diamond.

EDIT: Also, this doesn't mean I don't think that any color splash in this deck at all isn't crap. We run eight Moons.


Thanks for the input, only thing is I find trinisphere way more effective against ichorid. On the play a turn 1 trinisphere is really really hard on them. They can't play LED, they can't play unmask, they can't flashback or hardcast therapy, careful study, breakthrough, putrid imp, ect until they draw their 3rd land, which concidering most builds only run 11 should be long enough for you to kill them. Even on the draw if they get a grave full of creatures a resolved trinisphere means they will have a hard time playing their therapies, deep a or return.

There might be validity to your point. The fact that it shuts off the flashbacks is what really sells it for me. In my defense, I did say that it might be good. I haven't actually played this matchup as much as I should.

My problem was that with this matchup every time I dropped a turn one Trinisphere, they tended to just go "Draw, discard a Grave-Troll, go," and depending on the remainder of my draw I still wound up with a fight on my hands.

I should test this more when I get a chance, though, because I really can't figure out a reason why your argument doesn't make more sense than mine.

[slylie]

I'd actually run Demon's Jester over Jagged Poppet. Evasion is sexy. Just ask Faerie Stompy.

Also, I still don't approve of Mox Diamond.

EDIT: Also, this doesn't mean I don't think that any color splash in this deck at all isn't crap. We run eight Moons.



There might be validity to your point. The fact that it shuts off the flashbacks is what really sells it for me. In my defense, I did say that it might be good. I haven't actually played this matchup as much as I should.

My problem was that with this matchup every time I dropped a turn one Trinisphere, they tended to just go "Draw, discard a Grave-Troll, go," and depending on the remainder of my draw I still wound up with a fight on my hands.

I should test this more when I get a chance, though, because I really can't figure out a reason why your argument doesn't make more sense than mine.

Actually I playtest often against my friend who constantly plays dredge so I know he really hurts to a fast 3sphere, especially when followed up with a threat. From there he can either draw his third land and chain of vapor it before an explosive turn (provided you didn't drop a moon effect) or sit there dredge something and hope to flip narcomoeba's, ichorid and bridges... which can sometimes work. For reference I sideboard in the 4x 3sphere as well as 4x tormod's crypt so he does have a really tough time beating me after sb.

[NecroYawgmoth]

Yeah, I also board 3 Trinis and 4 Crypts aggaist Ichorid, because Ichorid can be so explosive & powerful...


Mox Diamond is card disadvantage, but so was Chrome Mox. You play Chrome Moxen instead of lands and pitch spells to it, while you play Mox Diamonds instead of spells and pitch lands to it, so it ends up being a wash.

Chrome Mox has 32 Imprint-Targets, Mox Diamond only 18...
No, 17 because you want to play a Land followed by it...
and Chrome Mox can Imprint the Crap that you don't need...

lol Demon's Jester...what crap is that, please? ...same goes for Jagged Poppet
...they are offcolor, and they are much more worse than RPD or Gathans... so why would you play them??? 7 Moons + 8 better Hellbent critters + 8 more red threads are all better than that crap...

YawG

[Guevera59]

I believe he was being sarcastic regarding the Jester...

[Tacosnape]

@Ichorid: Went and tested Trinisphere some more on you guys' recommendation. I miss having no life and spending six hours a day testing. I'd now board this in on the play without question and probably on the draw too. Trinisphere's way, way good against Ichorid. Turn one Crypt/Trinisphere is all but game.


I believe he was being sarcastic regarding the Jester...

"I'd rather run Demon's Jester over Jagged Poppet" was my way of saying "I'd rather smash my thumbnail with a hammer than stick a rusty screw up my penishole." While the statement is indeed true, doing neither one sounds like a far more pleasant option.

[slylie]

@Ichorid: Went and tested Trinisphere some more on you guys' recommendation. I miss having no life and spending six hours a day testing. I'd now board this in on the play without question and probably on the draw too. Trinisphere's way, way good against Ichorid. Turn one Crypt/Trinisphere is all but game.



"I'd rather run Demon's Jester over Jagged Poppet" was my way of saying "I'd rather smash my thumbnail with a hammer than stick a rusty screw up my penishole." While the statement is indeed true, doing neither one sounds like a far more pleasant option.

:wink: Sweet glad I could be of some help. Also to reinforce, a quote from the ichorid thread discussing sideboard options.


You are forgetting that Ancient Grudge really is your only out against Trinisphere for the combo part of the deck (and even then you have to pop an LED if you got one dropped before the 3sphere, or wait until you hit 3 of 11-13 lands to get through just one 3sphere). It MAKES you go ichorid beats, and that gets waylaid quickly as most decks not named Dragon Stompy that play Trinisphere have Propaganda/Bridge/Prison.

[Joe_C]

"I'd rather run Demon's Jester over Jagged Poppet" was my way of saying "I'd rather smash my thumbnail with a hammer than stick a rusty screw up my penishole." While the statement is indeed true, doing neither one sounds like a far more pleasant option.

sigged; :laugh:

[Mayk0l]

As someone whose two main decks are Ichorid and Dragon Stompy, I can say that a turn 1 Trinisphere is a pain in the ass, it's usually enough to win if you manage to drop anything straight after it. Sometimes, you don't have the mana to drop it turn 1, and you're forced to drop it turn 2. If the Ichorid player can get a Breakthrough in between, Trinisphere becomes a lot weaker. That's one of the downsides, especially game three if you're on the draw and can't get it on the table in your first turn.
If you can manage to get a Trinisphere, dropping a Moon (preferably Magus) is a good one too, as Cephalid Coliseum dodges Trini.

[Zork]

Honestly, though, unless you expect a ton of Ichorid (like my local tournies where 3-4 people out of 15 were playing it every week for a while), you should probably forget about playing crypt in the board. The deck is pretty strong aginst Ichorid without it.

[rockout]

If this has already been discussed, then I apologize.

I noticed from play-testing dragonstompy that after turns 1-3 I have to play top deck mode. If I start the game with disruption and a threat and the threat somehow gets neutralized, then I start praying to rip something else. I want to suggest card draw or tutor, but not really possible in red. I guess my question is does anyone else get the same feeling when they play dragonstompy past turn 3?

Post #50.

[jjjoness']

Honestly, though, unless you expect a ton of Ichorid (like my local tournies where 3-4 people out of 15 were playing it every week for a while), you should probably forget about playing crypt in the board. The deck is pretty strong aginst Ichorid without it.

That's also what I think. I had them in my board the last 3 tourneys and I never sided them in. It is good against Ichorid, but there's no other deck you want to bring it in. (Or at least very few)

[Joe_C]

If this has already been discussed, then I apologize.

I noticed from play-testing dragonstompy that after turns 1-3 I have to play top deck mode. If I start the game with disruption and a threat and the threat somehow gets neutralized, then I start praying to rip something else. I want to suggest card draw or tutor, but not really possible in red. I guess my question is does anyone else get the same feeling when they play dragonstompy past turn 3?

Post #50.

Well unless you emptied your hand for something that wasnt hellbent, you should be wining from this position. It also depends on what your opening is and obviosly whether or not you know what your opponent is playing. Here is my most current list:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Mountain
4 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Arc Slogger
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Seething Song
4 Blood Moon(questionable on this, might go -2 in favor of 2 Sulfur Elemental)
4 Taurean Mauler
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Magus of the Moon

SB:
4 Trinisphere
4 Pithing Needle
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pyrokenisis
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Here is a quesiton. Is goblins played enough for us to even care? Jitte is king in that matchup, but not so great in any other wide played match. My last tournament I played in, I did not board in jitte at all, and all 3 were in my board at that time.

[Zork]

To answer your question, yes, the deck does go into topdeck mode after you empty your hand. The idea is that by emptying your hand, your disruption should prevent them from answering your threats. Our disruption is supposed to be virtual card advantage, which is why we can afford to empty our hands.

Now, as any player of magic knows, the plan is not always executed, and sometimes our hand will be empty and they will have answered our threats. In that case, you do just have to topdeck. Trust me, the card draw engines you could run have been tried, tested, and found wanting. Browbeat, Bottled Cloister, Mindstorm Crown, etc. are all terrible.

[Kuma]

Last night, I played Dragon Stompy with Crypts in the sideboard, and was reminded why I don't normally run them -- they aren't useful in enough matches. I feared Ichorid and Aggro Loam, but there was no Ichorid and only one Aggro Loam.

There aren't many other matches where Crypt is worth running. Besides, Ichorid isn't terrible without crypts (especially if you replace them with Pyroclasms) and Aggro Loam still sucks.

I haven't been playing Dragon Stompy much recently. There aren't many decks in my meta that are significantly hampered by moons. I went 4-2 yesterday, losing in the first round of playoffs to Aggro Loam. I also played Burn twice (wins), MBA (win), White Weenie (loss), and a Mighty Quinn/Stax hybrid (win).

[Joe_C]

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Mountain
4 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Arc Slogger
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Seething Song
2 Blood Moon
4 Taurean Mauler
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Magus of the Moon
2 Sword of Light and Shadow

SB:
4 Trinisphere
4 Pithing Needle
2 Blood Moon
4 Pyrokenisis
1 Umezawa's Jitte

This is where I am at right now. I will be playing at the Hadley tourney next weekend with this most likely. Older lists ran up to 5 equip and less creatures, so I think the 2 sword/2 jitte ,main helps the jank matchup and can end games against control faster than without it. Any thoughts?

[nodahero]

Your list is identical to the list I have tested for months with the exception of SoFI vs SoLS and the 2/2 split vs my 2/3 split in jitte vs sword.

I personally prefer the SoFI due to the heavy presence of U and R decks which I would gladly switch to the SoLS should the meta permit such a nice change. All to often I find my swords making the Pit Dragon sub-optimal due to the card draw that triggers off of first strike.

Again as a meta call I have stuck with the extra equip as a response to the meta. One critter that you may find an interesting addition is Thunderblust. Thunderblust is a very agressive card which in a field such as mine, one devoid of StP, he really shines and can often go the majority of the distance all by himself. I often find myself swaping him and the Pit Dragon again due to the card draw off of SoFI. In a list running SoLS I doubt he is nearly as awesome although in your list he also gives you a minimum of a two for one due to his persist.

While I would not suggest swaping him out so close to a large tournmaent such as Hadley it is an interesting option to keep in mind.

[Tacosnape]

Sword of Light and Shadow is interesting. On paper I don't like it, because it doesn't do much to speed up killing the opponent and the protection from White isn't a huge deal since either you'll have a Chalice-1 down to stop Swords to Plowshares or they'll do it in response to an equip. However, lifegain and returning guys and protection from random crap like Shriekmaw and Vindicate on your guys is decent. Still, I'm kind of just eh about it. I'd rather be running more Jittes.

I'm also on the bandwagon for not running Tormod's Crypt now. Still tinkering around with potential replacement possibilities, but I've been toying around with Goblin Assault as a tool against control decks. I'm pretty sure there's a better idea, just haven't figured out what yet. Testing Rack and Ruin for random Affinity / Painter / Faerie Stompy metagames also (Hitting Mox + SOFI is tech.)

[Joe_C]

Sword of Light and Shadow is interesting. On paper I don't like it, because it doesn't do much to speed up killing the opponent and the protection from White isn't a huge deal since either you'll have a Chalice-1 down to stop Swords to Plowshares or they'll do it in response to an equip. However, lifegain and returning guys and protection from random crap like Shriekmaw and Vindicate on your guys is decent. Still, I'm kind of just eh about it. I'd rather be running more Jittes.

I'm also on the bandwagon for not running Tormod's Crypt now. Still tinkering around with potential replacement possibilities, but I've been toying around with Goblin Assault as a tool against control decks. I'm pretty sure there's a better idea, just haven't figured out what yet. Testing Rack and Ruin for random Affinity / Painter / Faerie Stompy metagames also (Hitting Mox + SOFI is tech.)

Well, so far the sols's seem solid. its nice to have 2 equipped creatures out if you manage that you should have the game won. Im still thinking of what my board should be.. Does the deck rally need 8 moon effects post board? I dont think so, so if we run just the 2 blood moons main along side the magus' that opens up the board for more options... Should we fear Ad Nauseum and run 4 trini in the board? Or can we deal with just 3?

[Arsenal]

I think with the advent of Ad Naseum decks really taking off (even sub-optimal builds are placing), I wouldn't go less than 4x Trinisphere. Post-board, 4x CotV and 4x Trinisphere will help your chances of delaying the opponent, then racing with 5/5 beaters.

[Joe_C]

I think with the advent of Ad Naseum decks really taking off (even sub-optimal builds are placing), I wouldn't go less than 4x Trinisphere. Post-board, 4x CotV and 4x Trinisphere will help your chances of delaying the opponent, then racing with 5/5 beaters.


I suppose its a concern that Dragon Stompy can actually handle since we can set up a wall that they need to get around that other decks may not be able to do.

Combo Heavy Metagame Board:

4 Trinisphere
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Pithing Needle
3 Pyroclasm
1 Umezawa's Jitte

that seems pretty straight forward.

[Arsenal]

In a combo heavy meta, couldn't you just cut the Jitte and go 4x Pillars? Also, I don't think I'd ever go lower than 8 Moon effects, unless I knew that my meta was nothing but mono-colored decks (Suicide, MUC, Stax, etc). Moon effects are pretty nice against combo, even if it delays them 1-2 turns, and a Moon effect is rarely ever dead-dead (you can still pitch for hellbent, imprint, etc).

[Joe_C]

In a combo heavy meta, couldn't you just cut the Jitte and go 4x Pillars? Also, I don't think I'd ever go lower than 8 Moon effects, unless I knew that my meta was nothing but mono-colored decks (Suicide, MUC, Stax, etc). Moon effects are pretty nice against combo, even if it delays them 1-2 turns, and a Moon effect is rarely ever dead-dead (you can still pitch for hellbent, imprint, etc).

Well, my only issue with running more moons is pretty much 1 blood moon is all you need, and the rest are just dead draws since you need to apply pressure once you land one so you can win before they get out from under the disruption. I think the 3rd moon may get into my board, but I think I dont need all 8. Having 7 is reasonable enough to have a good shot of landing one in play turn 1-2. Playing at hadley last month I did not face any combo, but this was before ANT came into existence. I dont know if I should gear the board to deal with it or run a more eclectic board to handle a blend, its just combo really needs more than the 4 trini post board to call it a positive matchup...

here is what my board will look like for the next week of testing

1 Blood Moon(2 maindecked)
4 Trinisphere
4 Pithing Needle
2 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Pyroclasm
1 Umezawa's jitte

board plan for ad nauseum- IN: 4 trini ,2 pillar, 1 moon. Out 2 sword, 2 jitte, 2 slogger 1 dragon

[Rinello]

I'm also on the bandwagon for not running Tormod's Crypt now. Still tinkering around with potential replacement possibilities, but I've been toying around with Goblin Assault as a tool against control decks. I'm pretty sure there's a better idea, just haven't figured out what yet. Testing Rack and Ruin for random Affinity / Painter / Faerie Stompy metagames also (Hitting Mox + SOFI is tech.)

I too don't like SoL&S, since we can't control with it and it sucks vs random chumpblock. <<< jitte

Anyway I was thinkin that Rack and Ruin can be countered.
While it is harder to achieve, since :r::r::r: is not :2::r: , shattering spree is counter/autocounterproof (almost) , even if sorcery speed sucks (well actually we don't do so much stuff EOT anyway so.......)

Against control decks I think we have only Needle.
One can simply grip/deed/EE/vindicate/sigil/ray of revelation our Goblin Assault..Even if I think it should be tested with more than 2 jitte MD.

We have to wait until Wizards makes a red creature :2::r: with a removal effect.. like a Uber Mogg Fanatic, 2/1 with "sacrifice: 2 damage divided as You want"

[Kuma]

I don't see how SoLS is better than SoFI, let alone Jitte. Dragon Stompy has more trouble with red and blue than with white and black. Yes, SoFI stops hellbent with RPD, but it's not like hitting someone with a SoFI-equipped dragon is bad. Nor do you have to equip it if it's going to cause problems.

I'd only run SoFI over Jitte if the only aggro you expect is Aggro Loam, Faerie Stompy, other Dragon Stompy, and Goblins. Even with Goblins it's questionable, and I'd usually rather have Jitte.

[Tacosnape]

Shattering Spree is an option. Multiple red isn't always a wonderful luxury, though, and very few decks do we actually -need- artifact removal to be uncounterable because most of the time it isn't worth boarding in. Faerie Stompy is the only example I can think of here where I'd want Spree.

Pyrostatic Pillar might be better than it used to be against Ad Nauseum decks, as it sort of inhibits Ad Nauseum, but it seriously sucks against almost everything else. And considering that most of the spells you play are 3-costers that you might be playing off Tomb, there aren't going to be many decks where you can afford to bring it on. However, if you expect a ton of Threshold and ANT, sure, give this a whirl.

[Rinello]

against AdN we have trinisphere, so If I have to change my sb I'd bring 4 Trini and remove 1 tormod.. I use it very rarely anyway so..

Our problem ATM is versatility, removal and OPTIONS.. We must ask wizards to prinst something worth testing...

[nodahero]

Not to get my foot stuck on the sadle but.... Isn't Thunderblust actually a solid test subject? There is almost zero threats in legacy that can tangle with him and survive. To be fair their are very few threats he can tangle with and survive however, unlike most of the other critters he would tangle with he is the only one with persist giving him a distinct edge.

I would not recomend Thunderblust in a meta rampant with StP or creature based decks such as Goblins but in a meta such as mine Thunderblust seems to be a house. My meta is composed of Eva Green, Ravager Affinity, typically a GBW control deck (which sadly packs StP), and various poorly designed aggro decks which are typically the other kids standard decks.

I was originally afraid of the chaff decks (the standard ones) but even then Thunderblust can still put his thing down and do some serious n00b powning. It should be noted that my list only runs 4 Moon Men and 1 B-Moon main which makes those matchups SLIGHTLY less painful then typical D-Stompy lists.

P.S. in response to the need for something to combat Ad Nauseam... I recomend learning to muligan. I own both decks plus UG(red or black) thresh, Reanimator, and Mono White Stax. The absolute worst deck to test Ad Nauseam is D-Stompy. The matchup is very poor (by typical Ad Nauseam standards) due to our built in anti-combo suite. Then again I am also one of the few packing 3sphre main anymore I notice. The matchup is about 55:45 in Ad Nauseams favor. This is a really rough ratio due to the high level of diverse cards which Ad Nauseam can run in the main and side as solutions to our control suite. My build of Ad Naus is "very" poor for D-Stompy to have to compete with due to the main deck Rebuild and SB serenity.

Ad Nauseam's biggest advantage against us is our inability to consistently stay at 20. Typically when I play D-Stompy I do any where from 4-8 self inflicted damage. This reduction of life allows for the Ad Nauseam player more flexibility in the amount of solutions he can bring in due to the reduction in the necessary storm. A good example of this occurred a few days ago while testing this matchup. I was play Ad Naus and in the "middle" of my match my opponent was at 14 meaning all I needed to do was cast Ad naus and find either a rebuild or serenity and kill them almost at will due to a hand of gas and Infernal Tutor.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Not to get my foot stuck on the sadle but.... Isn't Thunderblust actually a solid test subject?
Thunderblust is too easily chump blocked and burnt to death. A turn one Thunderblust is weaker then Arc-Slogger when any resistance is met. It's better then Slogger against Warrens Wierding, but Slogger is better then it against almost all other removal. It's not terribly faster when you factor in Sloggers ability to remove blockers.

[Captain Hammer]

For those of you opting to play Sword of Light and Shadow in place of Jitte, I suggest trying out a single Chartooth Cougar in place of a Mountain.

Without Jitte, that's one less way to use two mana on turn one, and SOLS lets you get the Cougar right back into your hand. That and it's an extra threat.

[Joe_C]

I have come to realize that jitte is just plain the best equipment we can run. I have dropped the 2 swords for a third jitte main and 1 more blood moon maindecked. My board is now

4 trinisphere
1 blood moon
3 shattering spree(ensnaring bridge can suck, same with meekstone... also with dreadstill gaining popularity we need some form of artifact kill)
4 pithing needle
3 pyroclasm

[NecroYawgmoth]

Hmmm, atm it looks like 4 Trinis are needed in the Sideboard, and you can drop the Crypts...

But I have a very important question to Taco and the other guys here:

It's been a while, but in the past, Taco has tested Leyline of Lifeforce...
What were the results of that testings? Was it good??? I need to know...

Seriously, I hate LS and MUC more than any other MUs and Akroma doesn't fix my problem... If it improves the LS-MU a lot (or any other card the normal DS-Build doesn't run) , I'll probably run 4 in my Board... cuz it's really the worst MU for me...

YawG

[Tacosnape]

Hmmm, atm it looks like 4 Trinis are needed in the Sideboard, and you can drop the Crypts...

But I have a very important question to Taco and the other guys here:

It's been a while, but in the past, Taco has tested Leyline of Lifeforce...
What were the results of that testings? Was it good??? I need to know...

Seriously, I hate LS and MUC more than any other MUs and Akroma doesn't fix my problem... If it improves the LS-MU a lot (or any other card the normal DS-Build doesn't run) , I'll probably run 4 in my Board... cuz it's really the worst MU for me...

YawG

Eh. I didn't really love it. It was good when it was good, but it generally wasn't. I mean, the best thing I can say for Leyline of Lifeforce is that it's better than Pyrostatic Pillar.

That said, your best weapon against MUC and even some Landstill is still Pithing Needle. And if all you lose to are blue decks? Just play Boil. Boil was a 4x in the very first incarnation of this deck for the very reason of dealing with random blue control crap. Some things never change.

[klaus]

Seriously, I hate LS and MUC more than any other MUs and Akroma doesn't fix my problem... If it improves the LS-MU a lot (or any other card the normal DS-Build doesn't run) , I'll probably run 4 in my Board... cuz it's really the worst MU for me...

One of the best ways to beat those is a playset of Sulfur Elementals. And it's actually only slighty worse than Mauler in most other MUs.

[Joe_C]

One of the best ways to beat those is a playset of Sulfur Elementals. And it's actually only slighty worse than Mauler in most other MUs.


True statement here. Sulfur elemental is awesome right after they cycle a decree of justice. In every other matchup I think Mauler is a lot better. He can get really big fast, and unless they can deal with him, it causes your opponent to slow their pace, which can win you games on its own.

[Joe_C]

From my last tournament this past weekend, I have taken into consideration that trinisphere really needs to be in the maindeck. I would rather have it there and have it stall my opponent, or draw a counter, than walk my moon effects into counterspells. There seemed to be a TON of control decks, and in order to get ahead, I think the 3sphere needs a home.

[rockout]

From my last tournament this past weekend, I have taken into consideration that trinisphere really needs to be in the maindeck. I would rather have it there and have it stall my opponent, or draw a counter, than walk my moon effects into counterspells. There seemed to be a TON of control decks, and in order to get ahead, I think the 3sphere needs a home.

I agree 100%.

In my dragonstompy build, I run sulfur elemental instead of gathan raiders. Yes, Gathan Raiders will usually be a 5/5, but a 3/2 uncounterable, kills soldier tokens seems good to me.

[Joe_C]

I agree 100%.

In my dragonstompy build, I run sulfur elemental instead of gathan raiders. Yes, Gathan Raiders will usually be a 5/5, but a 3/2 uncounterable, kills soldier tokens seems good to me.

I could see maybe doing a split here, or running elemental over mauler, but never zero raiders. He puts a ridiculous clock out if he is hellbent, also he allows you to get hellbent, and he is not killable by EE at 3. All of these situations make him better than sulfur elemental. I could see dropping mauler in favor of sulfur elemental, but I think mauler is the superior creature in every match except landstill

[Media314r8]

We have to wait until Wizards makes a red creature :2::r: with a removal effect.. like a Uber Mogg Fanatic, 2/1 with "sacrifice: 2 damage divided as You want"

Something like Fire Imp (http://sales.starcitygames.com//carddisplay.php?product=15830)?

[Zork]

Fire Imp is bad. You don't do the damage when you want to, and it can't stack like fanatic.

[Brad Herbig]

Hello all. I have been working on my Dragon Stompy list for a little while now, and I am not sure how I should split my moon effects and Trinispheres for the GP Chicago meta, which I am guessing will have a good amount of storm decks in it. Here is my current list:
------------------------
4 Arc-Slogger
4 Rakdos Pit-Dragon
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Simian Spirt Guide
4 Magus of the Moon
3 Sulfur Elemental

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Seething Song
4 Chrome Mox
3 Trinisphere
2 Blood Moon
2 Umezawa's Jitte

4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
10 Mountain

Sideboard:
1 Trinisphere
2 Blood Moon
4 Pithing Needle
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Pyroclasm
------------------------

My justification for the 6 moon 3 Trinisphere maindeck is that 6 moon effects seems to be enough to stop most of the nonbasic land shenanigans while the 3 Trinispheres will both hurt combo game one while still making a strong roadblock for many other decks.

As for my sideboard, the Pyrokinesis Pyroclasm split is mainly because Pyrokinesis is better at stopping the first turn Lackey while the pyroclasm helps against both zombie and goblin tokens.

Thoughts on these decisions?

[matamagos]

past saturday I have run the exact main deck to a shop tournement (except for -1 slogger/+1 sulfur elemental).

I have had a match against ad nauseam that I won 2-1.
In the last game it was critical the 2 pyrostatic pillar I run in the side.

My opponent had sided in a lot of artifact hate since he was playing the red version. He had shattering spree in hand, which becomes useless facing pyrostatic pillar.

I know it's a strange election, and this deck has a lot 3 cc's (sulfur elemental, trinisphere, moon, magus and jitte). But having an enchantment was very very useful against hate.

[Dark_Cynic87]

...and this deck has a lot 3 cc's (sulfur elemental, trinisphere, moon, magus and jitte). But having an enchantment was very very useful against hate.

Umm...Jitte costs 2. And you forgot these 3cc cards: Seething Song, Gathan Raiders (face it, it's 99% played face-down) and SSG (I've played it).

Not to nit-pick or anything...:tongue:

Pce,

--DC

[matamagos]

of course sorry. the fact is that you take plenty of damage if you play a lot of your cards with pyrostatic pillar in table.

however, playing against ad nauseam storm you only need to play a few of these cards to win, since they can not combo while pillar is on the board. and you can win without playing any 2cc or 3cc.

In fact I think i was lucky this day, since the blue version of ad nauseam storm plays bouncers instead of artifact hate and doesn't care of pillar is an enchantment.

[Brad Herbig]

Thanks for the suggestion, but I tend to agree that most Ad Nauseum decks will tend towards bounce since it does take care of problem creatures, artifacts, and enchantments, as opposed to just the problem artifacts. I do like your idea of one less slogger for a fourth sulfur elemental, because extra sloggers really do clog up a hand attempting to be hellbent. I'll probably test that change out and let you all know how it goes.

[NecroYawgmoth]

Why the hell do you want to cut a Slogger, for adding a crappy Sulfur Elemental???

Sulfur is not good, it does nothing compared to Slogger, and its not good in any Situation, except Decree Tokens and the Cephalid Life MU...

Slogger is so much better than Sulfur

4 Trini, 4 CotV, and the Moon-Effects for the Rainbow Manabase is enough to fight Combo! ...why adding bad Cards like Pillar...

YawG

[matamagos]

I agree pillar is not the wright choice. I only wanted to mention that in this tournament it saved me, and I recognize I was lucky.

however saying that sulfur elemental is BAD is going too far.

I run 4 of them cause my meta is full of landtill and blue decks. in any case he ignores the omnipotent force of will and dazes.

add to this a 3 power beating played at the end of turn. a lot of pressure.

add to this the possibility of sulfur end of turn/your turn/untap/draw/jitte/equip/attack

add to this the possibility of being one of the few anti-creatures you run

add to this the possibility of attacking with rakdos pit dragon and playing sulfur elemental instant speed giving him double strike, or making your gathan riders 5/5 killing the blocked creature

I think these are not the habilities of a BAD card.

PS: and of coure slogger is also a great card

[NecroYawgmoth]

Yeah, let me say it like this:

Sulfur IS worse than Slogger
Don't even try to cut one of the 5 Standard-Creatures in DS.

If your Meta is full of blue Decks, I would run 1-2 RAkroma instead of Sulfur... (Boil in Sideboard is tech, for blue random-crap, Taco said XD)


add to this a 3 power beating played at the end of turn. a lot of pressure.

...you think 3 Power is a lot of pressure, in a deck that runs, Gathans, RPD & Slogger (and possibly Mauler///RAkroma)



add to this the possibility of sulfur end of turn/your turn/untap/draw/jitte/equip/attack

errr, you don't know if you draw a Jitte so every other creature could carry it, too...



add to this the possibility of being one of the few anti-creatures you run

Slogger is a waaaay better Anti-Creature

let me say it like this: I don't think Sulfur is an optimal creature for thr 6th Slot (neither is Mauler or RAkroma), but I think, it's the worst of these three...

YawG

[puppektion]

I've been doing a little bit of experimenting between Mauler and Sulfur Elemental... Mauler gets absolutely huge and is so much better than Sulfur in like, 80% of the matchups. There is rarely a time that I draw a mauler and think to myself "wow. I really wish this were a sulfur elemental"

[Brad Herbig]

I'm not so sure I agree with you. I do agree that slogger is by far a better creature than sulfur elemental is. However, in a deck with a lot of temporary mana, it is somewhat difficult to consistantly maintain Arc-slogger's mana cost when trying to stay hellbent, often with multiple raiders or a pit-dragon on the field. With sulfur elemental, you can almost always play the topdeck, staying hellbent.

With the choice between sulfur elemental and taurean mauler, I agree that, first turn, taurean mauler is amazing. But how often are you trying to power out a 3 cc counterable creature first turn instead of a lock piece? And anyone who has played this deck knows how much it relies on the top deck. In topdeck mode when you need a threat, mauler is pretty bad. Sulfur elemental is actually a lot better. You will get a jitte carrying threat, guarenteed.

[NecroYawgmoth]

...believe me, when I played Maulers in the past, and drew them after Turn 6 or so... I never wished, that this card would be a Sulfur, I never wished that it's a Mauler, too

In the lategame you wish for something like RAkroma or Slogger.

When you have multiple Raiders/RPDs, it shouldn't be a problem to have 5 mana, seriously Oo


But how often are you trying to power out a 3 cc counterable creature first turn instead of a lock piece?
eveytime when you have the Mauler but no lockpieces

Look, Mauler is good in Turn 1&2, and Rakroma is good in Turn 6 and beyond ...and Sulfur is nothing of these, it's just an utility-creature, that's not needed imo

...and this Deck doesn't rely on Jitte ...sure Jitte wins games, but it isn't a key-card

YawG

[matamagos]

Yeah, let me say it like this:


errr, you don't know if you draw a Jitte so every other creature could carry it, too...

YawG

my idea was to remark the surprise factor of flash:
you have no aggro threats in board in your opponent' s upkeep
10 seconds later, in your turn, you have a 3/2 attacking creature equiped with jitte smashing at your opponents face

however I only argue about saying that sulfur is a BAD critter with so many habilities. I have never entered into the debate slogger versus sulfur

[Brad Herbig]

...believe me, when I played Maulers in the past, and drew them after Turn 6 or so... I never wished, that this card would be a Sulfur, I never wished that it's a Mauler, too

In the lategame you wish for something like RAkroma or Slogger.

When you have multiple Raiders/RPDs, it shouldn't be a problem to have 5 mana, seriously Oo


eveytime when you have the Mauler but no lockpieces

Look, Mauler is good in Turn 1&2, and Rakroma is good in Turn 6 and beyond ...and Sulfur is nothing of these, it's just an utility-creature, that's not needed imo

...and this Deck doesn't rely on Jitte ...sure Jitte wins games, but it isn't a key-card

YawG
Alright, I see where you are coming from. I guess I just play Dragon Stompy differently than you.

If all I have in my opening hand is Mauler and no relevant lock pieces, I generally mulligan. Chalice, Blood Moon, and Trinisphere are all very important cards to hinder your opponent enough that your threats, whatever they may be, go the distance. Mauler is good turns 1 and 2, and Rakroma is good turn 6, but Mauler sucks after turn two and Rakroma is bad turn 1 and 2. Sulfur Elemental is pretty good anytime, and is uncounterable. In my books, that is pretty good.

[NecroYawgmoth]

ehm, you know that this deck doesn't mulligan well???

[puppektion]

@ Yawgmoth'sWill

Dragon Stompy is one of those decks that is pretty difficult to mulligan with. It, like most (or possibly all) chalice stompys does kind of bank on having a strong opening hand, and overwhelming your opponent early on (red is lucky in having moon). I've had times while playing every chalice stompy (and yes, I have played every color...) where the deck just eats itself through mulliganing, but that doesn't happen exceedingly frequently for me and deffinately not enough for me to stop playing the decks.

[Joe_C]

I've been doing a little bit of experimenting between Mauler and Sulfur Elemental... Mauler gets absolutely huge and is so much better than Sulfur in like, 80% of the matchups. There is rarely a time that I draw a mauler and think to myself "wow. I really wish this were a sulfur elemental"

only situation this matters in is when you need to land a threat that cannot be countered. Im sooo toying with trying vexing shusher in the deck. He is better against certain forms of control than trinisphere(trini is only awesome against combo)... Im not saying he is perfect for the deck, but he is a 2/2 beater and a 2cc card that cant be countered by chalice, and makes jitte playable through chalice @2(if you play it). Food for thought... My list:

4 Ancient tomb
4 city of traitors
4 chrome mox
10 mountain

4 simian spirit guide
4 rakdos pit dragon
4 arc slogger
4 taurean mauler
4 magus of the moon
4 chalice of the void
2 blood moon
4 seething song
4 vexing shusher(hey he pitches to mox and lands turn 2 often enough)
4 gathan raiders

sb:

2 blood moon
4 trinisphere
3 powder keg
4 pithing needle
2 pyroclasm

[Dark_Cynic87]

I think your statement that "Trini is only awesome against combo" is true but misleading. It's only "awesome" against combo, but it's very good against a lot of other stuff.

If it resolves against Thresh, it throws their tempo out of sync. Their dig spells now cost 3, as do FoW and Daze. This is important. It's also good against Zoo builds, where 3sphere turns their cheap beats into crappy small men for the price they pay.

With the idea of pitching it to Chrome Mox, would it ever be important that it's also green? The thought would be that *if* it turns out that it's good enough to keep, would Krosan Grip be able to be used in the Sideboard, perhaps? I don't know how good this actually would even be, but I know the Landstill matchup is a 50/50 for this list, and being able to get rid of the Humility or the Deed they drop would definitely be a plus, and probably be a help to the matchup.

Just a bit more to think on.

Pce,

--DC

[Brad Herbig]

However, even if Vexing Shusher was good enough to keep, I don't think we could rely on having both a Vexing Shusher, a Chrome Mox, and a Krosan Grip all at the same time to merit running green spells in the sideboard.

Also, how is the double red and red activations treating you? That seems like an awfully big commitment to having extra red mana on top of the red needed to actually cast your spells.

[matamagos]

well, some lists go -1 city of traitors +1 mountain for more red

and I agree that playing krosan grip through mox would be very nice, but it's a utopia in a deck that runs 0 drawing spells

[Joe_C]

However, even if Vexing Shusher was good enough to keep, I don't think we could rely on having both a Vexing Shusher, a Chrome Mox, and a Krosan Grip all at the same time to merit running green spells in the sideboard.

Also, how is the double red and red activations treating you? That seems like an awfully big commitment to having extra red mana on top of the red needed to actually cast your spells.


I would need to test this list more to be comfortable with playing it in a tourney. I am playing in one this weekend, but unless I can get a shitload more playtests in, I dont think shusher will be in my deck. His casting cost usually is not a problem, all I can say that it would be an option to run him if you feel like testing him. I doubt I will have time to justify him over the next few days, maybe he might end up in my board. I will write a report after teh tournament

[Tacosnape]

@Bruenor: How is part of your argument for Shusher "That he makes Umezawa's Jitte playable under Chalice for 2" when you don't run Umezawa's Jitte anywhere in your list?

[Joe_C]

@Bruenor: How is part of your argument for Shusher "That he makes Umezawa's Jitte playable under Chalice for 2" when you don't run Umezawa's Jitte anywhere in your list?


Edited post to what i meant to say. It was meant if you run jitte, not since I run jitte.

[Joe_C]

Well, with me not even playing Dragon Stompy at the TMLO4( I played thresh which died in my hands, I knew I stopped playing aggro control for a reason), I have not seen much activity with people playing the deck and doing well. A teammate of mine went undefeated the first 3 rounds at TMLO I believe, but then lost his next 3 matches.

I cannot see why dragon stompy should not be owning face right about now. Trinisphere is looking good maindeck again, the only slot I really look at with doubt is slogger and maybe jitte( optional creatures in sulfur/mauler slot also).

Im still toying with a bunch of configurations. I think the only issue the deck has is sucking at mulliganing. And as far as I know, there is no way to remedy that..

[DalkonCledwin]

how is Dragon Stompies Match up against mono-colored decks such as MUC, Burn, Sui Black, etc....?

[Joe_C]

how is Dragon Stompies Match up against mono-colored decks such as MUC, Burn, Sui Black, etc....?

burn is not bad, chalice and trini rule, jitte helps alot.

MUC is tough. Needles and powder kegs need to come in, if you fear MUC run boil in your board

sui black: pray for chalice and trinisphere and to land a phatty before they can rape your hand. Other than that, you lose this one.

[Kuma]

In general, the more colors your opponent is running, and the less red, the better the matchup. The best matchup out of your list is Burn, and that's probably 50/50 at best. The rest are bad matchups.

I'm not sure why Dragon Stompy hasn't been doing well. The only decks in the DtB forum we don't have a decent match against are Dreadstill, Aggro Loam, and maybe Goyf Sligh/Survival.

[DalkonCledwin]

The only decks in the DtB forum we don't have a decent match against are Dreadstill, Aggro Loam, and maybe Goyf Sligh/Survival.

Why do you have a bad match up against Aggro Loam?

[Brad Herbig]

Well basically the best thing you can do to beat Aggro Loam is to drop chalice at 2 and race their Terrevores, if possible. Their Burning Wishes cast over your moons hurt. Otherwise they aren't too bad. I think Dragon Stompy is actually a good choice for the projected meta, as long as you have Pyroclasms in the side for ETW and random aggro.

[Kuma]

Why do you have a bad match up against Aggro Loam?

Because moons are next to useless, their creatures are bigger, they run Wasteland, and our only real weapon is Chalice at two.

[klaus]

I'm too lazy to browse through the last couple of pages to check, whether it's been mentioned already...

...but with 8 Moon effects, 4 Seething Songs, has Demigod of Revenge been brought up?
There's a not so neat dissynergy with hellbent at times, if it sits in your hand and can't get casted...but:
It can still be pitched to Chrome Mox and even better: Gathan Raiders.
An additional discard outlet would be grand, but my research didn't find anything useful to add. (Avatar of Discord looked tempting at first (but "2" is one too many), so did Balduvian Horde, until I realized it was "discard at random").
I dunno: I'm still pretty positive Demigod>SLogger.
3 should be the perfect number (alongside 3 Dragons).

Here's a sample list:

4 Magus
4 Bloodmoon
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice
4 Spirit Guide
4 Demigod --------possibly -1, +1 Loxodon Warhammer/ Solas
4 Raiders
3 Pit Dragon
4 Taurean Mauler
4 Seething Song
2 Jitte
1 Sofi

10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors

SB Jaja Ballard seems nifty here , too.

[Brad Herbig]

I'm too lazy to browse through the last couple of pages to check, whether it's been mentioned already...

...but with 8 Moon effects, 4 Seething Songs, has Demigod of Revenge been brought up?
There's a not so neat dissynergy with hellbent at times, if it sits in your hand and can't get casted...but:
It can still be pitched to Chrome Mox and even better: Gathan Raiders.
An additional discard outlet would be grand, but my research didn't find anything useful to add. (Avatar of Discord looked tempting at first (but "2" is one too many), so did Balduvian Horde, until I realized it was "discard at random").
I dunno: I'm still pretty positive Demigod>SLogger.
3 should be the perfect number (alongside 3 Dragons).

Here's a sample list:

4 Magus
4 Bloodmoon
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice
4 Spirit Guide
4 Demigod --------possibly -1, +1 Loxodon Warhammer/ Solas
4 Raiders
3 Pit Dragon
4 Taurean Mauler
4 Seething Song
2 Jitte
1 Sofi

10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors

SB Jaja Ballard seems nifty here , too.
The main problem with demigod is his casting cost. The only way you can consistently get 5 red mana in the same turn is either with a seething song, or having 5 lands out late game with a moon in effect. Since both of these are pretty conditional, I think that Arc-Slogger is still the better choice, not only because of its casting cost, but also the reach it provides. And for all the loops you have to jump through to get Demigod's returning ability to be worthwhile, I don't think he has a place in Dragon Stompy.

[Rinello]

atm I'm tinkering a list with A LOT of creatures, so I can topdeck better.
Coguar is just for testing, and it is somehow good..
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
9 [MM] Mountain (4)
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors

// Creatures
4 [DIS] Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 [FUT] Gathan Raiders
4 [MR] Arc-Slogger
4 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
4 [MOR] Taurean Mauler
1 [SC] Chartooth Cougar
1 [PLC] Akroma, Angel of Fury

// Spells
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MR] Seething Song
2 [8E] Blood Moon
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [AL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 3 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 2 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 2 [DK] Blood Moon



4 spree is just a meta call (affinity)
I never side in more than 2 Needle, and I want to try a super aggro version.. more creatures, 3x jitte..
If we compare to faerie stompy we run less equipment but have better stuff to block opponent's game (moons, chalice etc..)
But sometimes we face a red deck, or a deck that run a lot of basics, and we must overwhelm them with creatures.

opinions?

[Suguru]

Here I am again looking for some wise advise on how to play DS. This is a situation I have faced several times.

A hand with City, Chalice, Moon, Trini, Mount, Mount, RPD.

My doubt is if it would be better to play a turn 1 chalice and then having to sac the City in order to be able to play a Moon or a Trini, or play Mount and wait until the second turn to play Moon or Trini.

The first possibility prevents me from STP to my RPD or Thoughtseize, but if I play a Trini, I will not be able to cast anything else until I draw another mana source.
The second possibility gives me mana to play second turn Trini, and then either Moon or RPD or even Chalice, but I am at risk of Thoughtsize/Duress.

What would you do? Of course, assuming you don't know what your opponent plays.

[Afro]

Here I am again looking for some wise advise on how to play DS. This is a situation I have faced several times.

A hand with City, Chalice, Moon, Trini, Mount, Mount, RPD.

What would you do? Of course, assuming you don't know what your opponent plays.

Lead with the city into Chalice. On my 2nd turn I would normally go for Trini then Moon in that order.

[Joe_C]

Lead with the city into Chalice. On my 2nd turn I would normally go for Trini then Moon in that order.

I would choose this gameplan as well. Unless they run wasteland and nail your city before you can drop moon you are in good shape with chalice @1, trinisphere, and bloodmoon on the board. You just need to pray for your 4th land drop to hit so you can drop dragon.

Brainstorm(not the card) idea: being that getting to 4/5 mana after dropping a moon effect can be troublesome(you wouldnt think so, but if you play this deck enough, you will know what I am talking about), anyone have any ideas on how to streamline the mana curve to maybe max at 4cc? this would leave open slots to put more prison cards in here(what to run??) this could also lower the land count in the deck.... Seems worth it ONLY if there are reasonable replacements to stay aggressive or go more wildfire/stax prison style.

[Kuma]

Brainstorm(not the card) idea: being that getting to 4/5 mana after dropping a moon effect can be troublesome(you wouldnt think so, but if you play this deck enough, you will know what I am talking about), anyone have any ideas on how to streamline the mana curve to maybe max at 4cc? this would leave open slots to put more prison cards in here(what to run??) this could also lower the land count in the deck.... Seems worth it ONLY if there are reasonable replacements to stay aggressive or go more wildfire/stax prison style.

Arc-Slogger is too good to cut. If you want more prison cards, play Stax.

[Brad Herbig]

Arc-Slogger is too good to cut. If you want more prison cards, play Stax.

Agreed. I played a match against faerie stompy where slogger won me the game outright. I had a turn one slogger on the play, and he used his Ancient tomb once. Turn 3, I swung in with slogger, bringing him to 10, and then seething songed to remove my library from the game and deal 10 to his face. It was fun. :)

[Kuma]

Agreed. I played a match against faerie stompy where slogger won me the game outright. I had a turn one slogger on the play, and he used his Ancient tomb once. Turn 3, I swung in with slogger, bringing him to 10, and then seething songed to remove my library from the game and deal 10 to his face. It was fun. :)

Grats on beating Faerie Stompy. It's our second worst matchup in all of magic.

[Brad Herbig]

Grats on beating Faerie Stompy. It's our second worst matchup in all of magic.

Haha I figured that out. Only thing I could do to possible stop them is to power out a chalice at 3 to stop most of their stuff, mostly SoFI. And a chalice at 0 slows them down when you are on the play due to no spirit guides. Arc-Slogger and Jitte are the MVPs of the matchup. The times I did win was on the backs of those two cards.

[Phantom]

A hand with City, Chalice, Moon, Trini, Mount, Mount, RPD.

What would you do? Of course, assuming you don't know what your opponent plays.



Lead with the city into Chalice. On my 2nd turn I would normally go for Trini then Moon in that order.


I would choose this gameplan as well. Unless they run wasteland and nail your city before you can drop moon you are in good shape with chalice @1, trinisphere, and bloodmoon on the board. You just need to pray for your 4th land drop to hit so you can drop dragon.


I do not advocate these strategies against an unknown opponent. Leading with City while holding a mountain is an extremely dangerous gambit. Chalice @1 followed by a Blood Moon or Trini (and I'd highly suggest Blood Moon since Trini doesn't do a whole lot that Chalice doesn't in most matchups) will screw a lot of decks into submission but will also leave you with one mountain and completely vulnerable to decks that shrug off or ignore completely these effects. It will also leave you vulnerable to the many non competitive decks you see in tourneys.

I would lead mountain -> City, then drop a Daze proof Chalice, followed by your choice of disruption or beater depending on what was drawn and seen. I would in no way fear StP (since Chalice is coming down pre-beater anyway) or discard. They will either hit one of your three fairly redundant pieces of discard, or take your beater and watch you lock them out of the game (most decks with discard will not easily survive those lockpieces) and topdeck a wincon.

[Tacosnape]

For the record, it actually makes a difference here if your moon is a Blood Moon or a Magus, because a Thoughtseize on a non-Chalice play is much more devastating to your hand if your only threat is the Rakdos Pit Dragon. On the flip side, if you have a Magus, you can drop it as your second play after the Chalice-1 and have it STP protected, which will make up for the fact that you may take awhile to drop your RPD.

That said, I agree with Phantom and would lead Mountain, Go. Your hand isn't strong enough to risk leading with the City.

I disagree with the second play, though. Leading Mountain, Go here gives you options based on what your first draw is and what your opponent plays. Your turn two play will most likely either be a Trinisphere timewalk or the Moon, and at some point you'll get your Chalice for 1 down before emptying your hand and getting your Dragon on the board.

It's also an option to make your turn two play Mountain, Chalice-1, if you don't draw a mana source and see no indication of a possible Daze on your Chalice. The plan at this point is to protect your manabase and try to get your Dragon down before your Moon, to make sure you hit a fourth source.

[Kuma]

It looks to me that Dragon Stompy is much more aggressive, with all those Sloggers and RPDs played on turn1.

It can be, but turn one Sloggers and Pit Dragons are rare. However, you do have a slightly higher chance of doing something turn one in Dragon Stompy.


On the other hand it uses even more lock pieces (3sphere, 7-8 moons) and mulligans even more. So, my opinion is:

DS mostly either vomits its beasts on turn 1-2 or it gradually builds its lock of Chalices, Moons, etc. and once the opponent is out of game, we finish him.

Like Faerie Stompy, you have the option of being either aggro or prison, depending on the matchup. Dragon Stompy is much better at playing the prison role due to moons and Trinisphere. The eight moons are Dragon Stompy's biggest strength, and you can beat a large portion of the format by simply resolving a moon. Often, the correct play is to mull until you find a turn one moon, such as vs Landstill and ITF. Without mulling, your odds of a turn one moon are 33% on the play and 50% on the draw, so this shouldn't be too hard.


Is it problem that most of our guys dont have wings? I am somehow used to ignore most critters and fly over them..

Not usually. Our creatures tend to be big enough to win ground wars, and Jitte and Slogger are great at removing chump blockers. Worst case scenario, one hit from a hellbent RPD does the job. Pyroclasm and Pyrokinesis in the board are a huge help too.


I also fear the lack of protection the Swords give. (AFAIK we cannot use SoFI because of hellbent, but I dont see much of SoLS in your builds, either.) Do we count on kicking opponent out of removal via CotVs and Moons?

Dragon Stompy is more all-in than Faerie Stompy, as you will often find yourself dumping 4-5 cards out of your hand turn one vs an unknown opponent and praying they don't have a Fow/StP. Yes, we do rely on Chalice and moons to stop removal. Running a SoFI or SoLS over a Jitte is a metagame call or a personal preference.

And don't let anyone tell you you can't run SoFI because of hellbent. There are reasons not to run the card, but that's a small one.


And last note - Akroma/Sulfur/Mauler is just a matter of taste, isnt it?

It's more a matter of metagame, but Mauler is usually the best option. Akroma is only good in a high Landstill metagame, Sulfur is best in a meta with a lot of Decree of Justice tokens and Cephalid-whatever decks. It can also act as pseudo-removal with its surprise factor. But Mauler scares the piss out of people, and they often build their gameplan around killing it as soon as possible, leaving less removal for your Sloggers and RPDs. Mauler gets big fast if left unanswered. That he's a goblin also helps in the goblin match.

[Captain Hammer]

So, I'm just wondering what the hell happened with this deck.

A deck that shares some similarities with this has been doing well in the local metagame recently. I don't think it's the exact same build, but it runs Tombs, Cities, Blood Moon, Magus of the Moon, and a lot of other similar cards.

Which begs the question why no one is talking about the deck here. The metagame is filled with more nonbasics than ever before in the history of magic.

Is there some secret tech going around to finally make this deck more consistent or something?

[Brad Herbig]

Um, not that I know of. I am running Dragon Stompy now, and the only "secret tech" that I use that the majority of people on these forums disagrees with is using Sulfur Elemental instead of Taurean Mauler. To me, being able to land a cheap, not counterable jitte carrier in a meta full of counterspells is important.

[BlindMage]

Is there a mostly agreed-on optimized list for this deck? Or, is there a mostly agreed-on core of cards?

[Sanguine Voyeur]

The standard 'core' would be;

4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Gathan Raiders
2+ Arc-Slogger

2+ Umezawa's Jitte
4 Magus of the Moon
2+ Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void

4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Seething Song
4 Chrome Mox
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Mountain

That leaves 10 cards to be used for a few more threats [Taurean Mauler, Sulpher Elemental], more Moon, more Jitte, or Trinispheres.

[Tacosnape]

No, the standard core is 4 Arc Sloggers. Period.

Basically, Dragon Stompy should look like this:

The Core 54:
10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song

4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Arc Slogger
4 Magus of the Moon

4 Chalice of the Void
2 Blood Moon
2 Umezawa's Jitte

And the adjustable other six is some combination of:
Up to 4 Taurean Mauler/Sulfur Elemental/Whatever Threat They Might Print That's Better Than These
Up to 4 Trinisphere (I personally leave all four in the board.)
Up to 2 Blood Moon (And any you don't maindeck should be in the board.)
Up to 2 Umezawa's Jitte (See above.)

[Joe_C]

No, the standard core is 4 Arc Sloggers. Period.

Basically, Dragon Stompy should look like this:

The Core 54:
10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song

4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Arc Slogger
4 Magus of the Moon

4 Chalice of the Void
2 Blood Moon
2 Umezawa's Jitte

And the adjustable other six is some combination of:
Up to 4 Taurean Mauler/Sulfur Elemental/Whatever Threat They Might Print That's Better Than These
Up to 4 Trinisphere (I personally leave all four in the board.)
Up to 2 Blood Moon (And any you don't maindeck should be in the board.)
Up to 2 Umezawa's Jitte (See above.)


With all four trini in your board what do you put in place maindecked? I run 3 trini main, I feel the odds of them coming down on turn 1 game 1 and either slowing them down or making your turn 2 threat uncounterable gives them a spot maindecked. Although there always is a ton of blue control in my area

[Sanguine Voyeur]

So, I'm just wondering what the hell happened with this deck.It's inconsistency could repel players and there are other decks that can use Blood Moon, like some versions of Thresh. It may be seeing less top 8's due to lack of players. As to discussion, what's there to discuss? Nothing worth playing has been printed since Mauler.
No, the standard core is 4 Arc Sloggers. Period.I know that, but I also know many people who disagree. It's not quite a standard if not everyone agrees, but it really doesn't matter.

[Hoojo]

Has anyone looked at Deus of Calamity? Turn one coupled by a turn two Umezawa's Jitte could be devastating. He's fairly large too, allowing him to go at it with Tarmogoyf. I wouldn't replace Arc-Slogger with him, but I might tinker with other slots and see.

[Waikiki]

he costs RRRRR makes him only possible to cast with seething song.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Deus cost RRRRR. That's unbearable. I've done some experimenting with Demigod, it can almost never be cast. I've even tried it with more mana Rituals and it almost never landed.

[Tacosnape]

With all four trini in your board what do you put in place maindecked? I run 3 trini main, I feel the odds of them coming down on turn 1 game 1 and either slowing them down or making your turn 2 threat uncounterable gives them a spot maindecked. Although there always is a ton of blue control in my area

24 Threats, 26 Mana, 4 Chalice, 3 Blood Moon, 3 Jitte.


I know that, but I also know many people who disagree. It's not quite a standard if not everyone agrees, but it really doesn't matter.

It's a standard if most everyone agrees or everyone with a brain agrees. There are people who don't run Goblin Piledriver in Goblins (And a few credible arguments for doing so, so as not to call everyone who does this stupid), but Goblin Piledriver's still considered a staple. There hasn't been a reason not to run four Arc Sloggers since Gathan Raiders got printed.


Has anyone looked at Deus of Calamity? Turn one coupled by a turn two Umezawa's Jitte could be devastating. He's fairly large too, allowing him to go at it with Tarmogoyf. I wouldn't replace Arc-Slogger with him, but I might tinker with other slots and see.

Okay, rule #1 of Dragon Stompy? Nothing that doesn't cost :2::r: besides Dragon and Slogger. And if you don't want to go that far, at least nothing with :R::R: in it besides Dragon and Slogger, and nothing that can't spend the mana off Ancient Tomb. Deus of Calamity followed by a turn two Jitte would be awesome, yes, but so's a turn one Slogger. And you aren't required to catch a Seething Song to play Slogger.

[0dysseus]

Greetings folks! A nice year to everyone. This is my 1st post on this great Legacy site.So I thank everyone who contributed to its creation and everyone who runs it -keep up the good work guys! And of course the same goes for Phantom, Tacosnape and all the others who wrote good information, tested, reported their matches and made good questions like Mayk0l's. Sharing your well-tested and therefore justified thoughts really makes it a ton easier to distinguish roster-building theories from the value of actual PLAYING XP. Especially for players like me who are quite new to Legacy and competitive rosters and generally do not play ALL that often MtG.
Many a card or trick will just "seem" great in the beginning, while it's not(e.g. Covetous) -and the opposite (like Slogger).
So I feel I can pilot the deck a lot better after finishing today all 87 pages..and also having taken part in my first,relatively small tournament :
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=21622 . I think I can post now and say something that hasn't been said perhaps..

I have been saving my favorite pages of the thread, so if Phantom, Taco, or admins feel it's time to start it from the beginning, cut it short (like Solidarity's) or make some Contents Table, I can help by pointing the most important parts. But with incoming exams and the one-year compulsory military service here in Hellas awaiting me in about a month, I may be missing days or weeks from the thread.

Where should I start from? From the fact that Blood Moon costs $2,5 and it wrecks some of the most expensive cards to buy in MtG Legacy! Incredible.Always wanted to use it and was really happy when I told a friend that I wanted to make a deck with Blood Moon, Chalice (and counterspells perhaps), and he said it's already established.

This last page was very useful containing an up-to-date core list. When I play MtG, WH40000 or anything I try to make a roster that is equally good against all odds.Even if it is 50/50 favored. I prefer that to a 90/10 for most of the cases -while there is still an annoying few games which (possibly won't steal us 1st place in a tournament,but) will be more or less a semi auto-loss. I just can't "digest" the idea that we win some killer decks 90% with an early moon, but we can't do much about Enchantress (some complain also about FS, AggroLoam, Red Threshold or random decks). 50/50's are more challenging and -aside luck- it depends mostly on the player to win the game. I also understand that this is a forum for competitive plays and my ideas perhaps do not seem to connect fully with that. (It is just that I hate being powerful against the 7 out of 10 players, playing a retarded game, and being a total weakling in front of the other 3. I -like- challenge.) Anyway.


Bad match-ups should be:

In no particular order:

Enchantress
Faerie Stompy
MUC
Aggro Loam
Tempo Thresh/Swan Combo Thresh/Red Thresh in General


And also:

I would like to post a quick sidenote concerning DS.

NEVER PLAY THIS DECK AGAINST CASUAL PLAYERS!!!!! IT RUINS YOUR DAY!!!

I did so anyways and had to experience that this deck gets killed so easily by random crap.
I was very close to not liking this deck anymore because of this.

1. 8 Mooneffect do shit against someone who plays basics only
2. Chalice of the Void and (3Sphere) do nothing against a player whos curve starts at 3-6 LOL
3. All your fat critters get killed by stuff like Terror or Dark Banishing LOL
4. And stuff like a random ROYAL ASSASSIN (WTF) rapes you!!!!

So please keep it as a legacy deck that is constructed to beat top tier decks within that specific meta. (IT DOES NOTHING ELSE)

A little bit exaggerated perhaps, because we have acceleration even if our locks don't work, but I understand you on the other 50% of the times.


POX was also mentioned somewhere as unfavored, by Clark Kant and Tacosnape. (That would include Dead-Guy Ale style too?)


Now may I suggest some -perhaps not good solutions- that will not ruin our deck and give our bad match-ups maybe a better chance of winning. Cards that have been brought here but not examined thoroughly.. Trying to fix my list I ended up like this:

-----------------------------------
MAIN
-----------------------------------

9 Mountain
1 Snow-Covered Mountain[CS] (dragon in the pic:))

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
-----------------------------18


3 Blood Moon
------------------------------3 [+1]


4 Chrome Mox

4 Chalice of the Void

1 Sword of Light and Shadow / or +1 Blood Moon (or +1 Akroma, Angel of Fury?)
1 Sword of Fire and Ice / or
1 Umezawa's Jitte
-----------------------------11 [-1]


1 Akroma, Angel of Fury / Sulfur Elemental / 1 Arc-Slogger
3 Arc-Slogger
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Taurean Mauler (I think it must be 4 of them or none guys..)
-----------------------------24


4 Seething Song
------------------------------4


-----------------------------------
SIDE
-----------------------------------

3 Pithing Needle (don't bite)

1 Shattering Spree or +1 Pithing Needle

3 Pyrokinesis

1 Fire Ants / Scalding Salamander (for Enchantress,Bobs,etc..Taco's idea) or +1 Pyrokinesis

3 Trinisphere

1 Boil (in response to their spell while they're tapped) or +1 Trinisphere (or +1 more Pithing Needle:))

1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Anarchy (MOST important alternative card suggested in the forum, in my opinion)
1 An-Zerrin Ruins (for creature types and Loam -naming Lhurgoyf means 8 out!)

-----------------------------15

OUT
--------------------------------------X!

1 Mountain Yeti
1 Powder Keg
1 Pyroclasm
1 Cave-In
1 Pyroblast ?
----------------------------------------


And let me give my 2 cents about each one:

Taurean Mauler: Many have argued/consented about him. It was said that he's better than Sulfur Elemental in 80% of the match-up's. I will add that he is a great answer to Elvish champion in Elf Aggro (none wants a +1/+1 Mauler Forestwalking you to death). The same goes for Lord of Atlantis in the new Merfolk aggro. That must be an interesting deck.
I also want to say that I saw many guys, especially in the past running only 2-3. Isn't that a huge mistake? If you want to run 2 of sth that would be Sulfur of Akroma.
It is a card that I imagine is useful against junk where the trend is probably the mindless hit with many creatures against us(?)

Akroma: I like her as a 1-of, so that she will come in lategame more possibly. Being a red one means Mox-imprinting if she is undesired early -and of course Raider-pitching. And the bluff part is always fun. Even if only 1 the bluff IS online. Ready to hit at the most random moment. Which, I don't know, could be a drawback for us at the same time. But I strongly believe that Akroma x1 maximizes her utility. Not as a 2-of and more. And against Landstill or junk I think she is good. The game extends in both cases, no?

Sulfur Elemental: Now this guy could be played as a 25th threat in my humble opinion.It's equally useful as an early one or as a topdecked one. For those that are running him, don't tell me that you are counting on two of them to hit play so that whiteys get the -2.
Sulfur has flash.Opponents may fear it a bit because of surprise blocking. In a build with 24-26 threats: if it was run as a 1-of (WITH 4 maulers) could he serve as a factor for the opponent to play more conservatively? (IF the one came suddenly probably another could follow?) I like puzzling the opponent. And if someone knows a little bit of DS builds maybe he'll say: Hmm, he probably plays 2-4 sulfurs..

I certainly hope I'm not talking mambo-jambo here. All the other creatures are 4-ofs I guess. I favored 3 Sloggers, but in the previous posts I see that that is kinda out of the question. Apparently for some good reason that I do not fully realise yet, and that would be the 1st or second turn gg. However I see him in many cases that I do not want. Against a friend of mine's Dead-Guy Ale I think he is so uncastable, removable, and against counterspells they get the 1 for two (S.Song & Slogger).
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but he also ruins Hellbent sometimes. And I know that 4 of them are more loved than hated, but I am trying to think of something that would reduce the decks negatives. Not create positives WITH lesser negatives.

Now some talk about Jitte. Yes it IS cool, and it does remove its twin. But multiples are a bad plenty of times. And since Faerie Stompy is a bad MU & since SoFI also helps in Loam, should't we run the 1 Sword for help in those two MUs? Again, it has been said that Jitte purges a lot of randomness, but the Sword gives +2/+2 at once, draws and damages which would be good against random decks as well, don't you think? And the one SoFI wouldn't be ruining hellbent that easily..

If I was about to propose a single Sword of Light and Shadow maidecked as well maybe someone would say: Why the heck doesn't that guy play Singleton?
I don't know if the SoLS would be so good after a lot of testing in DS, as it is in FS..But I could see it replacing the 3rd Sideboard Jitte for all those who don't like it.After all it could be replacing the other Sword if the enemy was B or W, or the Jitte if you wanted 2 equipments that both give you +2/+2 & abilities & protection. Or you could run SoFI in the SB. In a build with 4 Sulfur Elementals and possibly 1 Akroma, maybe the Swords rock, and maybe we neglect that because Mauler is the main choice now. Has anyone thoughts on this?


Sideboard suggestions:
I really like Anarchy. One of the thing I hated when I was running my old counter-burn-4ensnaringbridge-isochron-RANDOM Sparkler-like deck is that while blue and red are my favorite colors, they both can't deal with enchantments well. And White is just so annoying with his enchantments. Check out Phantom's Gargangel Stompy. (No offence mate:) It seems great!) Karmic Justice, Solitary Confinement, Worship, Pariah, blaaahhblaaah...okayy no one plays SOME of these. But others ARE played. Versus Enchantress the game stalls, and as Taco noted: Anarchy can let you get past that last damage. It also wrecks mono-white (mo-MO-MONSTER-KILL!). Many situations in which it is maybe your best alternative. I would gladly get 1 Tormod's Crypt out for Anarchy.

About Crypt.. Judging from all your posts at various pages, it seems that Crypt isn't as good as 4 Trinispheres against Ichorid, and generally TC is the weak link in the SB. So maybe it should be run as 2-max. I don't think we lose at all from that, do we? If it's good against Loam, try playing SoFI.

The chat about An-Zerrin Ruins..why did we leave it? Who has tested it before dropping it? And don't tell me it doesn't fit the curve..Yeti was fitting well all of a sudden when it was tested with 4 Sloggers and 4 RPD's in, right?:p There's not much space for Ruins in your 15, but if 1 copy hits game 2 then you can name Lhurgoyf in Loam,and tap all Terravores and Tarmogoyfs after the attack. I am not claiming to be an awesome player and I think that most players in the forum are more experienced than me. It's just that some cards never got discussed at all..or almost that.

My general point is that there are some cards that come as 4 of's and are terrific. However, those 4's are the same, so they do the same. So if we tried a better sideboard mix, I think that many things would be a little better, with no cost. Take for example the 4 Needles. First of all they are expensive, and it frustrates me that I have to give 40$+ for 4 nice paper cards.. But that's sth else:wink:
What do they do? They ruin activated abilities. Which is so f__ versatile. But I can't conceive yet of a deck that can run Shattering Spree, needs it and does not run it. Why not run 3 Needles and 1 Shattering spree against Vedalken shackles? Are they not pretty much the same? Why not 3 needles and Sh.spree against Vial? 3 Needles and 1 Anarchy against Enchantress? Still 4 answer cards as before for the main matchups.We may lose slightly a little strength,or not. And we pack a card against the unfavored that's helping. We can't do anything better anyway in mho. We don't have search cards.

Sorry if I got carried away (87 pages brought many questions to mind.) Tacosnape,did you test those fire ants and they were problematic? I'm so curious. I liked the Salamander first because it attacks + deals 1 dmg, but the other does it in response. Confidants, enchantresses and 1/1 tokens, killed for 2R could be good.

Some more questions if someone has the time to answer...

1) Does anyone know an MtG webpage with mathematical types to estimate possibilities of having a desired card in our first hand, 2nd, etc? I am asking because I read that 8 moons are good on the play against solidarity and its ~6 fetchlands. If we had 7 moons in our 75 would it be a big problem? On the draw would it be a LOT different?

2) Tacosnape: I saw the page1 thought about Boil and I have to ask this: Isn't it much better than other vs. Solidarity or MUC? And what would be the proper moment to hit it against Solidarity so that they wouldn't combo off?

3) Phantom, are you playing with 4 Arc-Sloggers? 1 Akroma MD or SB? Anyone else's opinions?

4) Wouldn't a single pyroblast, be the desperate special tech we need against a locking blue enchantment? Does someone know of any other color non-scrap enchantments that can disable us? Tacosnape said sth about Elephant grass being bad..you think the grass is bad, or you meant the deck running it?

5)If we fix the SB with 4 needles in, I think the "out of the question"4xPyrokinesis would be 3x inevitably:) If not, could Fire Ants be the 4th Pyrokinesis?

6)Finally, if we drop to 2-1 Crypt, we could easily have 4 3spheres MD or SB, but is this overkill or not? Sometimes vs. Ichorid or Combo if you have it by turn 1 you live, if by turn 3 you die..So we play 4 Trinis I guess?

Thank you in advance for reading my long post. I hope it didn't tire you.
Feel free to answer/not to answer as you like, when you like. But have in mind that I ike thinking against a BLIND metagame, where I should be equally prepared for quite everything. Even if that meant losing some favor in my best MU's.. Then again perhaps this isn't the proper deck to think this way??

Keep walkin'

[Tacosnape]

That might have been the longest non-opening post in a deck discussion thread ever. I'll try to hit the points I can.

Point 1. MUC and Red Thresh and aren't as bad as people think. They aren't anywhere in the same league of bad as Faerie Stompy and Enchantress.

Point 2. Merfolk and Elves don't beat Dragon Stompy. Chalice-1 wrecks them both, Pyrokinesis wrecks them both, Arc-Slogger wrecks them both, Jitte wrecks them both.

Point 3. Sword of Light and Shadow doesn't belong in this deck. Nor does Akroma, Angel of Fury. You don't need more than 24 threats (4 each of SSG, Magus, Dragon, Slogger, Gathan, and Mauler). As such, Fire Ants is also a pretty weak choice. And you don't really need any threats of any sort anywhere else in your 75 unless it's a threat that doubles as artifact removal.

Point 4. An-Zerrin Ruins sucks. Seriously. Don't forget that it shuts off your own Taurean Maulers too.

Point 5. What's up with all your random 1-ofs in a deck with no draw and no search capacity? They aren't a big deal. Run Anarchy or don't. Run Shattering Spree or don't. Make sure you've got Pyrokinesis, Pithing Needle, and Trinisphere maxed out in your sideboard, as you'll want these in the most matchups.

[Kuma]

Point 1. MUC and Red Thresh and aren't as bad as people think. They aren't anywhere in the same league of bad as Faerie Stompy and Enchantress.

I dunno, I had trouble thinking of terrible matchups after Enchantress, Faerie Stompy, and Aggro Loam. How would you round out the top five worst matchups? Quinn? Armageddon Stax? Pox?

[HAVE HEART]

I dunno, I had trouble thinking of terrible matchups after Enchantress, Faerie Stompy, and Aggro Loam. How would you round out the top five worst matchups? Quinn? Armageddon Stax? Pox?

Decks that run a significant amount of basics lands and do not rely on the 0-, 1-, or 2-converted mana cost slots.

[Brad Herbig]

What do you guys think about Spitebellows in the sideboard, mainly against Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker? It can also double as a bridge from below remover. However, I am also thinking about playing Relic of Progitnus instead, because it deals with both of these situations (besides Tombstalker), but doesnt require double red. Will either of these work (in the sideboard)?

[Tacosnape]

I dunno, I had trouble thinking of terrible matchups after Enchantress, Faerie Stompy, and Aggro Loam. How would you round out the top five worst matchups? Quinn? Armageddon Stax? Pox?

Enchantress is the worst by far. Faerie Stompy isn't far behind. Pox isn't great either, but manageable depending on the build.

Armageddon Stax is actually not a bad matchup at all. I don't have an exact record but I know I've won more than I've lost against it, and I've won several games with a finishing reach from Arc-Slogger. Moreso than anything, though, this match will come down to who wins the opening die roll, because it's rare that either deck will steal games going second.

Quinn, no idea. I've never once played against it. I assume it's unfavored but not unwinnable, as there's a lot of Chalice targets and Blood Moon game one at least hurts the draw engine. A fast Scepter-Chant will slaughter you, though. I'd be interested in hearing from someone who knows this matchup better.

The rest of the worst matchups are either jank or fallen into obscurity. Mono Black Control, despite being archaic and rare, is a horrible match for Dragon Stompy, and Train Wreck's not much better. That white Chalice Aggro deck with the maindecked Moats that I think Phantom designed is bad.

The bright side to Dragon Stompy is that you don't really have a horribly unfavored matchup that you'll come across more than once in a tournament. There's a lot of them, but they're all uncommonly played.

[mercc]

I'm gonna go out on a limb here. Flaming is allowed.

I have only playtested one night, and i love the deck, how fast it can be.

BUT! Why wasn't hellbent good in Standard? Cuz why would you wanna _achieve_ having ZERO cards in your hand? (The tezzerator deck could do it in a Pro Tour because the engine of tezzeret and trinket and academy ruins is far better than any DS ever had)

I like the core of 8 lands that give 2 colorless mana.
7-8 Bloodmoon effects kicks any ass.
8 accelants like chrome mox and SSG is great.

the consistency of 8+8+8 is what makes it good.

Chalice and Trinisphere is also in the range of cc 2-4 that locks down the opponent.

Now.... why these subpar random beaters with hellbent that you get out by wasting even more cards as rituals(seething song)?

Isnt' there any other way to seal the deal???
I found myself praying that he had no Fow or StP. It's fine to face opponents with those cards, since then i can just play another creature or bait out counters and denial, but in DS u can't, it's all'in! wasting 2-4 cards on a creature.

Well. That was my 2 cents.

[TheDarkshineKnight]

No, the standard core is 4 Arc Sloggers. Period.

Basically, Dragon Stompy should look like this:

The Core 54:
10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song

4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Arc Slogger
4 Magus of the Moon

4 Chalice of the Void
2 Blood Moon
2 Umezawa's Jitte

And the adjustable other six is some combination of:
Up to 4 Taurean Mauler/Sulfur Elemental/Whatever Threat They Might Print That's Better Than These
Up to 4 Trinisphere (I personally leave all four in the board.)
Up to 2 Blood Moon (And any you don't maindeck should be in the board.)
Up to 2 Umezawa's Jitte (See above.)

Do you have a general preference as to what those remaining six cards should be, between the Maulers, Elementals, Spheres, Moons, and Jittes, in a random metagame? I assume it would be 4 Maulers and 1 Jitte and Moon each, but, I'm not completely certain.

[HAVE HEART]

I found myself praying that he had no Fow or StP. It's fine to face opponents with those cards, since then i can just play another creature or bait out counters and denial, but in DS u can't, it's all'in! wasting 2-4 cards on a creature.

Your lock pieces are supposed to create figurative/relative card advantage. If you drop that Trinisphere and then your beater, Force of Will is not so hot. If you drop Chalice of the Void for one and then your beater, Swords to Plowshares is not so hot. Also, against a lot of decks that do run those cards (FoW/StP), Moon effects are pretty br00tul.

This is why Dragon Stompy has a bad reputation for losing to jank (lock pieces become useless) and flaming out (sometimes mulligans are not enough). Dragon Stompy rarely wins by the skin of its teeth like a lot of control decks do. You will usually know whether or not you are going to win within a few turns.

[mercc]

Your lock pieces are supposed to create figurative/relative card advantage. If you drop that Trinisphere and then your beater, Force of Will is not so hot. If you drop Chalice of the Void for one and then your beater, Swords to Plowshares is not so hot. Also, against a lot of decks that do run those cards (FoW/StP), Moon effects are pretty br00tul.

This is why Dragon Stompy has a bad reputation for losing to jank (lock pieces become useless) and flaming out (sometimes mulligans are not enough). Dragon Stompy rarely wins by the skin of its teeth like a lot of control decks do. You will usually know whether or not you are going to win within a few turns.

Against decks with a way around that, say vindicate instead of StP. Then your rush will be stopped, sure, u might have swung two times, but the all-in was stopped. This deck is risky business.

[Arsenal]

Against decks with a way around that, say vindicate instead of StP. Then your rush will be stopped, sure, u might have swung two times, but the all-in was stopped. This deck is risky business.

That's the risk you assume by playing a deck that is capable of dealing 20+ points of damage in one combat phase.

[Joe_C]

I will be playing in a tournament next weekend and wanted to toss a list off you guys with a few changes from the usual lists. Depending on the decks I see next week I may or may not play stompy, but if I do, this is the list I intend to run:

10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Arc Slogger
4 Taurean Mauler
4 Magus of The moon
2 Vexing Shusher
2 Blood Moon
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Gathan Raider
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Seething Song
4 Chalice of the void

SB:

2 Blood Moon
3 Trinisphere
4 Pyrokinesis
2 Powder keg
4 Pithing Needle

vexing shusher is questionable but I have liked having a 2 drop creature and also allows us to play pithing needle through chalice game 2/3. the jittes may become 2 trinispheres, or shusher #3 and moon #3 depending on metagame.

Thoughts??

[matamagos]

umm... i am interested in the idea of siding in powder keg. did you tested? How it has proven?

[Tacosnape]

Powder Keg has been around and not around in sideboards like, forever. Possibly two forevers. I personally think it's pretty good but just narrowly bad enough to not make the cut. That said, if you're going to run it, run it exactly like Bruenor's doing it: By cutting the graveyard hate slots for it.

Vexing Shusher is kind of meh. Sure, it makes shit uncounterable, but it does it for a red mana, which is kind of annoying, as it makes you need a second red open for shit. It also costs double red, an annoying curve unless you have a moon down. That said, it's really neat that you can drop it straight through a Chalice for 2. I seriously doubt he's worth it, though.

[Joe_C]

Powder Keg has been around and not around in sideboards like, forever. Possibly two forevers. I personally think it's pretty good but just narrowly bad enough to not make the cut. That said, if you're going to run it, run it exactly like Bruenor's doing it: By cutting the graveyard hate slots for it.

Vexing Shusher is kind of meh. Sure, it makes shit uncounterable, but it does it for a red mana, which is kind of annoying, as it makes you need a second red open for shit. It also costs double red, an annoying curve unless you have a moon down. That said, it's really neat that you can drop it straight through a Chalice for 2. I seriously doubt he's worth it, though.

keg has proven worthwhile at least in my metagame.... Elspeth tokens, manlands, engineered explosives(if you manage to get the timing right), bridge from below tokens, empty the warrens tokens, tarmogoyf. All these are quite plentiful where I play, If I could run four I would, but that would be overkill.

Shusher's cost has yet to be a hinderance to me, he can come into play off land/mox and make a turn 2 moon uncounterable if you drop a 2-land. Also makes chalice at 1 uncounterable turn 2 and turn 2 jitte. He is worth the 2 slot in my opinion at the moment. Tournament play will prove it to me, but in testing he is great... Even if you dont leave a mana open on board, with an SSG he makes Force of Will an overcosted daze. Opponents will need to keep that in mind. And again, getting a pithing needle into play with chalice @1 out is another HUGE bonus to shusher. I often find myself in a position against landstill where I want to drop both and cant. Shusher makes it possible to drop both. More than likely although I love jitte in here, if I see a ton of landstill I will run -2 jitte +1 Moon +1 shusher. That opens another slot in my board for trini #4 or keg #3.

[georgjorge]

Rakka Mar 2RR
Legendary Creature - Human Shaman

Haste
R, tap: Put a 3/1 red Elemental
creature token into play.
2/2


Not a big powerful attacker, but an effect that will overwhelm the opponent in 2-3 turns. Which doesn't exactly fit the strategy of this deck, but it's a powerful effect, and with the 3cc-slot already incorporating 3Sphere and the Moon effects, maybe this could replace the Sulfur Elemental/Mauler slots.

[Arsenal]

If the tokens had haste too, I'd like it. But as it stands, it's effectively a 2RRR drop (2RR + eot R activation), I don't think this'll make the cut. I know I won't be moving my Maulers out for this guy.