[Deck] Dragon Stompy

[damionblackgear]

The ability is nice but, the RR in the cost is probably the biggest killer. It puts it in the realm to be played instead of Slogger or Dragon...

Dragon flies+pumps and is our only answer to Moat.

Slogger shoots... who doesn't like guns?

[Captain Hammer]

Yes, what I am about to say is blasphemy, absolutely unthinkable.

But lets face it, this deck is too damn inconsistent, it loses to itself way too often. We have got to try something.

The wins come on the backs of the brokenness of Blood Moon and Magus of the Moon. But something about the deck just feels off.

Does anyone here think that one possible route to go in less thresh dominated metas would be to move the Chalices and Trinispheres to the sideboard and play maindeck burn or more threats alongside your current threats.

Burn makes sure you can....
a.) imprint a burn spell on the Chrome Mox rather than a threat. This is actually pretty key. I frequently have to decide which threat to equp to Chrome Mox.
b.) take out chump blockers which is a problem for this deck.
c.) do damage to the dome to win the game a turn or two faster.
d.) your opponent won't know to side in artifact destruction game two if you opt to bring the chalices back in.

[HAVE HEART]

Does anyone here think that one possible route to go in less thresh dominated metas would be to move the Chalices and Trinispheres to the sideboard and play maindeck burn or more threats alongside your current threats.

If you take out the lock pieces, then you open yourself up to more 2-, 3-, and 4-for-1's. You might as well play Burn or Sligh with Moon effects. Try testing it, but it seems worse than Dragon Stompy, Burn or Sligh.

[Arsenal]

I'd just take out the Mauler/Elemental slot and play Pyrokinesis maindeck (instead of sideboard). You just have to have 1-2 really good combat phases to win the game, and Pyrokinesis (a.) lets you do it for free, and (b.) helps you achieve hellbent.

[Captain Hammer]

Pyrokinesis maindeck is a BAD idea.

You realize that Pyrokinesis can only hit creatures right?

If it could hit players too, it would be worth it. But as is, I would never maindeck it.

I think I would rather play Browbeat/Flames of the Blood Hand/Something else if I wanted burn maindeck and didn't want to cut Chalice for Bolt effects.

[Dark_Cynic87]

Damage to the dome in this deck is a wasted slot 99% of the time. Seriously. Plus, you already have it via Slogger. Pyrokinesis does what you are wanting. Takes out chump blockers and pitches to Mox instead of a threat. Who cares if they bring in artifact hate. Damage to the dome is stupid. It may come in handy 1 game out of 100, but more than that a.) slogger fills that slot nicely and b.) you would always rather see disruption, another red source, or another threat over 3-5 to the dome.

I think Pyrokinesis is something to be tested. It's pretty good for what it's needed for. The only thing it doesn't do is win a game against ANT//TES that goes off turn one on the play. Honestly, what else is needed? Fireblast could possibly be tested instead, but it's worse against hordes of critters (aka goblins). It can make an EtW worse, but no one plays that card any more anyway, plus you have Moons, Chalices and Trinis to help with that anyway.

[damionblackgear]

Pyrokinesis hit only creatures.

There is no reason to even think of adding it main unless your going to an all agro field. Perhaps we should look at what's in the deck and see if that's worth adjusting/dropping.

[0dysseus]

I'd just take out the Mauler/Elemental slot and play Pyrokinesis maindeck (instead of sideboard). You just have to have 1-2 really good combat phases to win the game, and Pyrokinesis (a.) lets you do it for free, and (b.) helps you achieve hellbent.

I had been playing Pyrokinesis maindecked, and it isn't bad at all. But I think that 4 more threats are more useful against more matchups, and so I finally sideboarded it. It can ruin your hellbent also, so it's better used when its pros are a lot more than its cons, in my opinion.
For the Pyroclasm over Pyrokinesis lovers: have you tried Cave-In? It is a really nice bridge between them, sorcery speed, but free and with :1: less mana than Pyrokinesis hardcast, damaging players as well.


Your lock pieces are supposed to create figurative/relative card advantage.

I agree. And not only do "you open yourself up to more 2-, 3-, and 4-for-1's",as you say, but you also make the opponent draw dead cards (uncastable spells or neutralized non-basic lands) with the lock pieces, which makes up for the no draw/search capacity of this deck.


Yes, what I am about to say is blasphemy, absolutely unthinkable.

Nothing is "blasphemy" as long as you rationalize just a little bit. Even Phantom had thought about a Sloggerless list many pages ago, I think.

I don't know about a non Thresh metagame but some of the best cards in this game cost 1 mana. And they always keep comin'. Check out Path to Exile and Bloodhall Ooze for instance: http://mtgsalvation.com/conflux-spoiler.html#3103 They could have a very good potential. Chalice@1 is power in Legacy.



Burn makes sure you can....
a.) imprint a burn spell on the Chrome Mox rather than a threat. This is actually pretty key. I frequently have to decide which threat to equp to Chrome Mox.
b.) take out chump blockers which is a problem for this deck.
c.) do damage to the dome to win the game a turn or two faster.
d.) your opponent won't know to side in artifact destruction game two if you opt to bring the chalices back in.

a.) One less threat (imprinted) is more important there, if it helps cancel 2 or more of the opponents' threats, search cards, etc. by allowing you to cast a Chalice or Trinisphere turn (1 or 2).

b.+c.) Sloggers and Jitte kill chumps, while Dragons evade them if they don't fly. Most of our other creatures kill a chump blocker each turn without dying, if they are allowed to attack or block.
Pyrokinesis in the SB also deals with them. I bet you don't like it because it makes you ditch a red card(a threat more likely) but it usually destroys two or more of the opponents cards too, with no cost, instant speed. That allows our fatsos to be a good investment, and deal fast damage to the dome.
You will be possibly one,two or more turns slower if you allow the other player to play all those cards that would be otherwise disabled by Chalice/Trini against this non-card advantage deck.

I would like to run Arc Mage for instance: http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=21343 , he's a red threat, has the right cost, can split/deal 2 direct dmg to chumps n dome as you say and he can enable hellbent. But what would he replace?? And would you rather play his ability or one of your Sloggers/RPDs/their abilities when you have spare mana? (I will still try him when I have the chance though..)

d.) With that I agree. I like decks that play quite differently when you use the SB.


But lets face it, this deck is too damn inconsistent, it loses to itself way too often. We have got to try something.

Serum Power had been discussed, I don't know if it was tested a lot. And if, only if, there was a way to play Burning Wish with tools in the SB!..


keg has proven worthwhile at least in my metagame.... Elspeth tokens, manlands, engineered explosives(if you manage to get the timing right), bridge from below tokens, empty the warrens tokens, tarmogoyf. All these are quite plentiful where I play, If I could run four I would, but that would be overkill.

Olivier Ruel was running 4 kegs SB. But paired with all Pyrokinesis, Sloggers n Jitte against tokens/creatures, Moons against manlands, I'd prefer Shattering spree against artifacts, not keg. Anyway, have unmorhed your raiders when you use it.


@ Tacosnape: I won't argue about Akroma and SoLS now because probably you know better by having the deck tested more than I have. But could you please explain a little more why An-Zerrin Ruins sucks? Let's SB the Maulers and put 1 A-Z Ruins AND creature hate, against goblins, creature types generally, tokens, or the most annoying creatures in the opponent's deck. If it comes, it will come when we have the mana, and if it does it will shut off half of their army.
I don't intend to run random 1-ofs, I want to run some different 1-ofs that also team up effectively in a different way between them against different decks, and create more card answers in the SB for the bad match-ups, without ruining the good more than just a little. I will let you know when I have something more certain in mind.

[Arsenal]

Damage to the dome in this deck is a wasted slot 99% of the time. Seriously. Plus, you already have it via Slogger. Pyrokinesis does what you are wanting. Takes out chump blockers and pitches to Mox instead of a threat. Who cares if they bring in artifact hate. Damage to the dome is stupid. It may come in handy 1 game out of 100, but more than that a.) slogger fills that slot nicely and b.) you would always rather see disruption, another red source, or another threat over 3-5 to the dome.

I think Pyrokinesis is something to be tested. It's pretty good for what it's needed for. The only thing it doesn't do is win a game against ANT//TES that goes off turn one on the play. Honestly, what else is needed? Fireblast could possibly be tested instead, but it's worse against hordes of critters (aka goblins). It can make an EtW worse, but no one plays that card any more anyway, plus you have Moons, Chalices and Trinis to help with that anyway.

I couldn't have responded any better.
___________________

I don't think maindeck direct damage is really needed in the meta Dragon Stompy would most likely be played in, but rather, we need a new creature to be printed that's just like, "whoa". Or a new utility artifact spell. I don't think direct damage is the answer people are looking for.

[Brad Herbig]

I'm starting to think that the correct number of sloggers in this deck is actually 3. 3 is enough that you will be able to see either a slogger or a pit dragon every game, but lowers the chances of getting them in multiples (which sucks when you have to seething song one out), and allows you to play what you draw each turn, which is important when you have to topdeck to stay hellbent turn after turn. I would say with the extra slot, the moon count should be brought up to 7 (if not there already), trinisphere up to 3 (it seems way to good in this meta to not mainboard), or add the 4th 3cc threat of choice (whether it is sulfur elemental or taurean mauler).

[Dark_Cynic87]

Do as you please, but 4 is the right number. Between your chrome moxen and their removal spells, you may want to see more than one a game. As whoever was talking about Pyrokinesis said, you often have to pick which threat to toss to the Mox. Then there's discard via Thoughtseize that once in a while grabs it away from you.

Honestly, if you are winning it doesn't matter what you draw, and if you are losing, Slogger's one of two best shots to turn that around. I'd not go down to 4. In fact, 5 is probably the right number, and if you can get away with it you should.

Pce,

--DC

[Joe_C]

I'm starting to think that the correct number of sloggers in this deck is actually 3. 3 is enough that you will be able to see either a slogger or a pit dragon every game, but lowers the chances of getting them in multiples (which sucks when you have to seething song one out), and allows you to play what you draw each turn, which is important when you have to topdeck to stay hellbent turn after turn. I would say with the extra slot, the moon count should be brought up to 7 (if not there already), trinisphere up to 3 (it seems way to good in this meta to not mainboard), or add the 4th 3cc threat of choice (whether it is sulfur elemental or taurean mauler).


Ive dropped equipment from the deck entirely. Running 7 moons and 3 trini mian. Its been working well, its an identical configuration to what I played a few months ago at Hadley and took 4th with. My SB has changed a bit. I am just diheartened at how inconsistent the deck can be at times. Especially it seems my opponents just get great topdecks while I am trying to maintain pressure. I land turn 1 moons often, then dont get into any threats before they get a chance to build up mana to handle the offset moon creates for them. 3 color landstill has been brutal for me lately. They are all running eternal dragon which fixes their mana etc. Elspeth is a tank. I get ahead often, but cant seal the deal fast enough to matter. Maybe the next set or something will give us a card filter we can use.

[Tacosnape]

Pithing Needle owns Elspeth. Just saying. It also owns Eternal Dragon's cycling ability.

[Joe_C]

Pithing Needle owns Elspeth. Just saying. It also owns Eternal Dragon's cycling ability.

Obviously.... the point is that they usually dont matter anymore. they vidicate or EE pithing needle consistently against me. I can only win games against landstill where I resolve turn 1/2 moon, chalice then threat, and usually the threat needs to be pit dragon or slogger, nothing else ends the game fast enough.

[0dysseus]

The Conflux Spoiler was completed 3 days ago http://mtgsalvation.com/conflux-spoiler.html . It seems like there are no interesting cards for Dragon Stompy in Conflux, except from more Chalice-1 targets perhaps, like Path to Exile:wink: Banefire>(?)Demonfire(->which was cast out a long time ago).. an interesting but uncomfortable 1RR uncounterable Instant 2 damage to all(Volcanic Fallout), maybe Rakka Mar and finally Nyxathid, a good 1BB (practically 7/7) threat against us.

Let me propose a list, after seeing Bruenor's (Joe_C's) Vexing Shushers maindecked. I haven't tested it, and I won't be able to test it a lot, I have no time unfortunately. But it could prove good. And I want to help you keep this thread alive. So:

- Green Dragon Stompy -
-----------------------------------
MAIN
-----------------------------------
1 Snow-Covered Mountain [ColdSnap]
8 Mountain
1 Forest

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
-----------------------------18
4 Chrome Mox

4 Chalice of the Void
------------------------------8

3 Blood Moon
------------------------------3

1 Umezawa's Jitte
------------------------------1

3 Vexing Shusher

3 Arc-Slogger
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Simian Spirit Guide
-----------------------------22

4 Seething Song

4 Manamorphose
------------------------------8

-----------------------------------
SIDE
-----------------------------------

4 Pithing Needle
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Trinisphere

3 Krosan Grip


Yes, yes. Possibly bs. Manamorphose countered by Chalice-2. But if played first it can help thin out a little, provide RR (or RG, GG). It is a free spell unless countered, and I am always happy if my cheap bait is countered, leaving me room for a better spell to resolve (a lock or a 2R threat here for example). If drawn later it can be always be pitched or counter-played with Chalice-2 down, or with Shusher. Manamorphose and Shusher can be pitched to Mox providing Green+Red if needed. They are always red for Pyrokinesis.

I've cut 1 Slogger to increase consistency along with the thining. 1 basic Forest could help without causing trouble..it can help cast Shusher and MM, and the latter could mean RR after played, even if the forest comes early. And finally we can disenchant, using Krosan Grip in the side.

Two cards I like and were brought up quite lately to the discussion were Null Brooch and Goblin Assault. They could be an answer to targeted/mass removal, mostly black, and moar. As you see I've also cut the Maulers, wanting to create a more stable result.

With 4 Trinispheres in SB maybe 8 moons are too much for blind metagames, or big tournaments. I have 7 only, and if 1 N.Brooch was played MD, maybe 6 moons total in the 75 would be enough. More noncreature counterspells with hellbent assistance could work.

And if the green list doesn't work, 3-4 equipment with no Maulers and 2-4 Goblin Assault could save us from being outnumbered.

Feel free to critisize, flame, whatever:smile: Cheers.

[uberfrank]

Manamorphose is definitely a dead card, if you want to run a cantrip I'm sure you can find something way better than this. Shusher is not such a bad card, but I doubt it has a place here. It would only help against matchups that are already positive for this deck.

How many times are you going to hit that lone forest anyway, when you desperately need it for those krosan grips out of the board?

Red sources can already be problematic for this deck, a splash is something that remains to be worked out, but here there's really not such an upside to it.

[0dysseus]

Some guys in earlier pages suggested fetchlands and Street Wraith for thinning, but these were rejected because DS already deals too much dmg to its user.. One problem with Manamorphose is that if you top deck it later, play it, and draw an uncastable card (Land for example) you will mana burn for 2.

Another problem is that Manamorphose actually is an "X" card in your opening hand, which you don't know what will bring to you, and this lack of information doesn't help you in mulligan decision. Of course this is irrelevant if you have a C-Mox or a Pyrokinesis.

Casting an uncounterable P.Needle (+ a 2/2 +moar) may also help against Faerie Stompy and the "not so problematic" MUC.

I suggested 1 Forest and Manamorphose(straight or mox-pitched)-along with Joe's Shusher- to be able to cast Grip, so that's not the only green source. Krosan Grip would be useful against Enchantress.

Manamorphose also helps by transforming colorless into red mana.

Anyway, I'm just suggesting ideas to the most experienced dudes, rationalizing as best as I can and hoping I'm not filling a page with any nonsense:really: . Even if I find some time and a friend and test my ideas in MWS, he won't play most of the other good decks as well as a frequent tournament player, who will also know every nut and bolt of the few decks he's mastered. The testing will be satisfactory but not as good as it would be if one of the best Legacy players sees something here, tests it, and reports back, right?

Shusher could also combine with Burning Wish. Or he couldn't combine with the aggressive spirit of Dragon Stompy as well:smile: I feel DS's problems -ahead of inconsistency- are 1) its good-but-not-enough number of targets against black(and some white disenchanting) removal via sacrifice or not(SoLS, 1x Sophie, 1x Null Brooch(SB), Goblin Assault, Empty the Warrens and Serum Powder could be of some use - if not too slow) ; 2) its inability to deal untargeted dmg (Pyroclasm Chaliced till Shusher, Chandra rejected, but An-Zerrin Ruins hits indirectly..) and 3) its inability to disenchant! That's why I want to hit those spots.

I use 1-ofs when I want to see 1 copy of a card per game cause the second would be really useless, but I increase that number if I desperately need to see that card. I also try to keep the total number of 1 or 2-ofs that I want to see mid-late game low (below 3 or 4 max) unless they can be pitched (here meaning red).

But the question remains: What would be replaced by any suggested card, in order not to ruin DS's good to quite-not-so-bad match-ups terribly, and help against the bad?

[Wallace]

Has anyone considered Banefire here, I think it may have a home some where in DS. I mean 6 mana for 5 damage and un-counterability is sick. What do you think?

[ansset]

Has anyone considered Banefire here, I think it may have a home some where in DS. I mean 6 mana for 5 damage and un-counterability is sick. What do you think?

Emptying your hand is a lot easier than getting to 5 or more, and the added effect of Demonfire is the tipping point. Demonfire is better, and it rarely makes the cut.

[matamagos]

I'm not so sure of that. In my experience emptying my hand is not so easy.

However it's true that in theory we will play these cars in later turns, where it's easier to have no cards in hand.

I'm doubtful!

[Arsenal]

Between Seething Song, SSG, Chrome Mox, and the 2mana lands to help power stuff out, I've never had trouble vomiting my hand quickly. If you're keeping hands that don't have 2mana lands, Seething Song, SSG, and/or Chrome Mox, then you're not mulliganning correctly.

[Captain Hammer]

Guys, adding even more high cc cards (Banefire/Demonfire) to this deck is only going to make the deck less viable. Cards that get countered by a Chalice at 1 of all things. You're looking in the wrong direction.

The inconsistency of this deck and it's failure to top 8 can be blamed on two things...

1.) Dragon Stompy is just about the only deck in the metagame that doesn't play any removal that can kill the common threats Tombstalker, Tarmogoyf, Dreadnought and Mystic Enforcer, all of which happen to be bigger than anything Dragon Stompy plays.

2.) The deck tries to support multiple cards with a cc higher than 3 alongside 4 City of Traitors. 4 City of Traitors is unplayable in a deck with an average cc higher than 2R until turn 3 at the earliest.

If we wanted to make this deck more consistent and put up more top 8s, we would...

A.) Find some 0cc or 2Rcc removal that can actually kill Tarmogoyf/Tombstalker/Dreadnought/Mystic Enforcer by itself (without having to two for one your opponent, or in the case of Pyrokinesis 3 for 1 your opponent). To kill a Goyf with Pyrokinesis, you need to trade a creature, plus a red card in hand, plus a Pyrokinesis, all to take out just one threat that your opponent plays. It's making trades like that that costs games. Combine the inability to deal with Goyf with creatures that have no evasion of their own with only one exception, and you end up with a deck that falls on it's flat too often.

B.) Take a page out of Faierie Stompy and build a similar curve, where 95% of the cards have a casting cost of 2R or 3, 2 equip. No, we shouldn't cut Arc Slooger since that is the only card we have that actually can consistently trade with Goyf etc. But everything else is fair game. This means cutting away all extranous cards like Akroma, Demonfire, Pyrokinesis and yes probably even going down to Rakdos Pit Dragons. If not that, I think the deck should atleast go down to 3 City of Traitors.

I mean lets assess Rakdos Pit Dragon fairly. Assuming you have hellbent, it's about the same as a Rafiq of the Many.

Rafiq of the Many isn't a bad card, but a Rafiq of the Many that is conditional on you having no cards in hand is tiptoeing the line between playable and not playable.

Personally, I don't think 4 Rakdos Pit Dragon or justified, maybe 3 or 2, but not 4.

And aside from 3 Rakdos and 4 Arc Sloggers max, all of the other cards with a cc higher than 3 (your Akromas, Pyrokinesis, Demonfires and such) should get the boot.

Fortunately, making either change would still let the deck play the three main cards that justify it's existence... Blood Moon, Magus of the Moon and Chalice of the Void.


If you're keeping hands that don't have 2mana lands, Seething Song, SSG, and/or Chrome Mox, then you're not mulliganning correctly.

When I tried playing this deck by throwing back any and every hand that doesn't have an explosive opening, I found myself mulliganing down to 4-5 cards a full third of the games. Assuming that I even had an explosive start along with a creature at the point, I was stuck with an empty board and an empty hand as soon as my only threat got StPed.

The deck is inconsistent enought that imho, mulliganing away every hand that is not explosive is not wise.

I would generally as a rule of thumb keep any hand at all that allowed for either a turn one Chalice or a turn two Blood Moon/Magus even it meant that I won't be laying down a threat until turn three at the earliest.

Does this mean I was playing the deck wrong? What do you veterans of this deck think?

How often do you mulligan?

What is your criteria for mulliganing?

How often do you end up stuck with 5 or fewer card hands and nothing to show for it using this method?

[Arsenal]

When I tried playing this deck by throwing back any and every hand that doesn't have an explosive opening, I found myself mulliganing down to 4-5 cards a full third of the games. Assuming that I even had an explosive start along with a creature at the point, I was stuck with an empty board and an empty hand as soon as my only threat got StPed.

The deck is inconsistent enought that imho, mulliganing away every hand that is not explosive is not wise.

I would generally as a rule of thumb keep any hand at all that allowed for either a turn one Chalice or a turn two Blood Moon/Magus even it meant that I won't be laying down a threat until turn three at the earliest.

Does this mean I was playing the deck wrong? What do you veterans of this deck think?

How often do you mulligan?

What is your criteria for mulliganing?

How often do you end up stuck with 5 or fewer card hands and nothing to show for it using this method?

I'm not claiming your opening hand should consist of 6 mana accelerants and 1 threat, not at all, what I was trying to say is that unloading your hand early (matamagos' post) shouldn't be tremendously difficult assuming you opened with at least one accelerant in hand with a relevant turn 1/turn 2 play (such as turn 1 CotV, turn 2 Moon/3cc spell).

EDIT:

Regarding my criteria, it's pretty simple; do I have a relevant turn 1 and/or turn 2 play in my opening 7? Yes? I keep and proceed to drop whatever (turn 1 CotV, etc). No? I throw it back as having your earliest possible spell come down turn 3 is horrible in Legacy in general.

[Kuma]

Guys, adding even more high cc cards (Banefire/Demonfire) to this deck is only going to make the deck less viable. Cards that get countered by a Chalice at 1 of all things. You're looking in the wrong direction.

They only get countered if you cast them with X = 0. Come on...

That said, both cards are indeed terrible.


The inconsistency of this deck and it's failure to top 8 can be blamed on two things...

1.) Dragon Stompy is just about the only deck in the metagame that doesn't play any removal that can kill the common threats Tombstalker, Tarmogoyf, Dreadnought and Mystic Enforcer, all of which happen to be bigger than anything Dragon Stompy plays.

It's impossible for most decks running Tombstalker to cast it under a Moon.

Tarmogoyf can be killed by Arc-Slogger/Pyrokinesis/Umezawa's Jitte plus any creature in the deck.

Dreadnought is shut down by Chalice at one. There's also the option of running Shattering Spree. But you do have a point. Dragon Stompy isn't favorable against most Dreadstill lists.

Most decks running Mystic Enforcer can't play him under a Moon. Also Arc-Slogger/Pyrokinesis/Umezawa's Jitte.


2.) The deck tries to support multiple cards with a cc higher than 3 alongside 4 City of Traitors. 4 City of Traitors is unplayable in a deck with an average cc higher than 2R until turn 3 at the earliest.

Seething Song, Chrome Mox, and Simian Spirit Guide would like to have a word with you.


If we wanted to make this deck more consistent and put up more top 8s, we would...

A.) Find some 0cc or 2Rcc removal that can actually kill Tarmogoyf/Tombstalker/Dreadnought/Mystic Enforcer by itself (without having to two for one your opponent, or in the case of Pyrokinesis 3 for 1 your opponent).

This card doesn't exist. The closest thing we have is Aftershock, but that's 2RR and three damage to you.


To kill a Goyf with Pyrokinesis, you need to trade a creature, plus a red card in hand, plus a Pyrokinesis, all to take out just one threat that your opponent plays. It's making trades like that that costs games.

Actually, I've found making trades like this wins games. The decks that run those creatures are highly dependent on them. Umezawa's Jitte solves some of these problems too. I really don't know why so many people are cutting it.


B.) Take a page out of Faierie Stompy and build a similar curve, where 95% of the cards have a casting cost of 2R or 3, 2 equip. No, we shouldn't cut Arc Slooger since that is the only card we have that actually can consistently trade with Goyf etc. But everything else is fair game. This means cutting away all extranous cards like Akroma, Demonfire, Pyrokinesis and yes probably even going down to Rakdos Pit Dragons. If not that, I think the deck should atleast go down to 3 City of Traitors.

Rakdos Pit Dragon is the second best creature in the deck. Yes, we'll have trouble casting it once in a while, but there's no 2R creature powerful enough to be worth running over it to improve consistency.

I'm not sure why you hate City of Traitors so much. It's essential to the deck until Wizards prints a better double-colorless land. We need a double colorless land to operate at peak efficiency. Cutting a City would hurt consistency. What would you run over it? It's already a Mountain with a Moon out.


I mean lets assess Rakdos Pit Dragon fairly. Assuming you have hellbent, it's about the same as a Rafiq of the Many.

Rafiq of the Many isn't a bad card, but a Rafiq of the Many that is conditional on you having no cards in hand is tiptoeing the line between playable and not playable.

No way.

When was the last time Rafiq swung for 12+ damage without the aid of another card? Rafiq won't take your opponent from 17 to 0 in a single turn. RPD can also fly, an important point that seems lost on you.

Even if Rafiq cost 1RRR, 2RR, or even 3R, I still wouldn't cut any RPD for him.

It's not like it's hard for us to get Hellbent either.


Personally, I don't think 4 Rakdos Pit Dragon or justified, maybe 3 or 2, but not 4.

And aside from 3 Rakdos and 4 Arc Sloggers max, all of the other cards with a cc higher than 3 (your Akromas, Pyrokinesis, Demonfires and such) should get the boot.

Fortunately, making either change would still let the deck play the three main cards that justify it's existence... Blood Moon, Magus of the Moon and Chalice of the Void.

The problem with your argument is that while the expensive cards hurt consistency, they greatly increase power. Your Faerie Stompy comparison is moot, because Faerie Stompy doesn't have access to Seething Song or SSG.

There aren't any three mana cards powerful enough to replace RPD and Slogger right now.

[Captain Hammer]

You make some good points.

I agree with you about Jitte and that's why I've never gone below 3. And I'm still never going to play Akroma/Pyrokinesis/Demonfire because 8 cards that have a casting cost above 2R is the absolute maximum this deck could support.

But I'm still going down to 3 City of Traitors because I've had bad luck with playing 4. But I guess that's a personal choice.

You are right about this...


This card doesn't exist. The closest thing we have is Aftershock, but that's 2RR and three damage to you.

...there's no 2R creature powerful enough to be worth running...

But until that changes...

until Dragon Stompy gets a 2R burn spell that can deal atleast 5 damage to a creature (to kill Goyfs/Tombstalkers)

and until it gets a 2R creature that's actually comparable in powerlevel to Tarmogoyf/Tombstalker both of which effectively only cost 2 mana. (Hell I would be ecstatic even with a 2R creature at the same powerlevel as Sea Drake or Countryside Crusher).

I don't anticipate this deck top 8ing with any real frequency.

[Hopo]

until Dragon Stompy gets a 2R burn spell that can deal atleast 5 damage to a creature (to kill Goyfs/Tombstalkers)

Wildfire.dec plays similarly what it comes to not having spot removal and having just a few red sources (until Coalition Relic hits the board.) It can support Spitebellows, but people keep saying that RR in casting cost is too much for dragon stompy. I'm not sold on that, since I rarely have trouble casting my pit dragons as I still have 7 moons, song, mox, SSG and 10 mountains. If you're not afraid of the RR issue, you have yourself a 3cc red removal in Spitebellows. Also, Threaten has been mentioned before but I have no experience on that.

[bowvamp]

Spitebellows looks fun, but it's at least -1 manaburn if you plan on casting it for the optimal play:
turn 3
1 2 mana producer
2 Mountain
1 Cotv at 1
Why not just go up to 4 mana and eliminate the manaburn?

[Kuma]

Spitebellows looks fun, but it's at least -1 manaburn if you plan on casting it for the optimal play:
turn 3
1 2 mana producer
2 Mountain
1 Cotv at 1
Why not just go up to 4 mana and eliminate the manaburn?

Aftershock > Spitebellows, but I wouldn't run either. Although part of me is really tempted to test Aftershock. It can kill basics, goyfs, Tombstalkers, Dreadnoughts, and artifacts.

But the casting cost makes it too hard to support, and the three damage while tolerable, isn't helping its case.

[Corwin]

Hey guys what do you think about Taurean Mauler? I thought everyone played it but I just realized I'm the only one hehe, what are the reasons that made you choose not to have him in your deck? Because it's slow?

[Arsenal]

I play Mauler, he's a beast if you can get him out turn 1/turn 2. He either (a.) gows to retarded levels, or (b.) draws immediate attention from your opponent (possibly allowing other things to slip through). I used to be against him until I actually tested him. He's good.

[Joe_C]

I play Mauler, he's a beast if you can get him out turn 1/turn 2. He either (a.) gows to retarded levels, or (b.) draws immediate attention from your opponent (possibly allowing other things to slip through). I used to be against him until I actually tested him. He's good.

he is also the only creature that doesnt suck if he gets down before humility.

[Joe_C]

Hey guys what do you think about Taurean Mauler? I thought everyone played it but I just realized I'm the only one hehe, what are the reasons that made you choose not to have him in your deck? Because it's slow?

You are definitely not the only one. I top 8'd with him in my deck a few months ago. he is insane

[Corwin]

Nice to hear, then I'll keep it in my deck for now :cool:

[zabuza]

Has anybody thought of reckless Wurm. It cost 2R (madness) and can be played after gathan riders to morph them. I think a 4/4 trample for 2R could be good in this deck. The only thing we need to play it is discarding it form our hand, that can be made with gathans or with any masticore we play ( normal or razormane) although there will be better options to discard it for sure.
what do you think about?

[Joe_C]

Has anybody thought of reckless Wurm. It cost 2R (madness) and can be played after gathan riders to morph them. I think a 4/4 trample for 2R could be good in this deck. The only thing we need to play it is discarding it form our hand, that can be made with gathans or with any masticore we play ( normal or razormane) although there will be better options to discard it for sure.
what do you think about?

I wouldnt want to add more ways to discard it. What would be taken out? We cant lose disruption pieces, and the creatures in here are already about as good as it is going to get

[matamagos]

well, on the one hand masticore helps us to acheive hellbent, but on the other it seems a llitle bit underpowered compared to tarmo or tombstalker

[Arsenal]

well, on the one hand masticore helps us to acheive hellbent, but on the other it seems a llitle bit underpowered compared to tarmo or tombstalker

Masticore helps achieve hellbent for one turn, then it dies due to you having hellbent (aka, an empty hand) on your next upkeep. Massive dissynergy.

[zabuza]

But, when it dies you have a 4/4 trample to beat with.

I think Wurm could be good because its numbers and because it fits on the 2R casting cost the deck has.

Masticore is not bad because it´s a 4/4 that regenerates, can kill elves, confidant, merfolks, and so on and when you have hellbent it will die but probably you´ll have a dragon or something like this.

Beside of that you can play a reckless wurm in your upkeep so the card you are discarding is being played putting a 4/4 trample mosnter on the table.

I´m testing it and i think is not bad, but anyways i´m not sure too so please guys, what do you think about?

[thebadmagicplayer]

Hey guys, I picked up this deck a few days ago and love it. I just have a few questions about match ups and sidedecking for some match ups.

first off, land-still... I'm drawing a complete blank on this one. how do I play this match-up? how do I side board in against it? Is vexing shusher good against landstill or should i just grab needles name Deed and pray? I ask because land still is a big question mark since not alot of people play it around where i am.

next up. how does this deck do in the merfolk match? also how does it sideboard against it?

and lastly what are the must haves for the sideboard? pyrokinesis (3-4), and what else?


Thanks in advance
TBMP

[Joe_C]

Hey guys, I picked up this deck a few days ago and love it. I just have a few questions about match ups and sidedecking for some match ups.

first off, land-still... I'm drawing a complete blank on this one. how do I play this match-up? how do I side board in against it? Is vexing shusher good against landstill or should i just grab needles name Deed and pray? I ask because land still is a big question mark since not alot of people play it around where i am.

next up. how does this deck do in the merfolk match? also how does it sideboard against it?

and lastly what are the must haves for the sideboard? pyrokinesis (3-4), and what else?


Thanks in advance
TBMP

First off, my list and how I board, this will allow you to take it into context depending on deck differeces:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Mountain
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song
4 Arc Slogger
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Taurean Mauler
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Gathan Raiders
3 Blood Moon
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Chalice of the Void

Board:
4 Pithing Needle
3 Trinisphere
1 Blood Moon
4 Powder Keg
3 Demonfire

Demonfire is an answer to Elspeth along with needle. I randomly alter how many of what I take in against landstill depending on what color scheme they are running. If its 4c you are facing, get all your moons maindeck and bring in needle to stop deed and manlands if you cant resolve a moon. 3c landstill is getting harder and harder to beat since their mana is really stable, and vindicate is harsh on this deck. You need to stick a moon effect and end the game as fast as possible. I would maybe take out a few songs and a slogger or two. Pit dragon is your best chance as ending the game fast so at max board out 1. Mauler is huge, as he is the only solid beater if he gets into play and then they resolve humility(keeps +1 counters).

[b4r0n]

First off, my list and how I board, this will allow you to take it into context depending on deck differeces:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Mountain
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song
4 Arc Slogger
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Taurean Mauler
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Gathan Raiders
3 Blood Moon
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Chalice of the Void

Board:
4 Pithing Needle
3 Trinisphere
1 Blood Moon
4 Powder Keg
3 Demonfire

Demonfire is an answer to Elspeth along with needle. I randomly alter how many of what I take in against landstill depending on what color scheme they are running. If its 4c you are facing, get all your moons maindeck and bring in needle to stop deed and manlands if you cant resolve a moon. 3c landstill is getting harder and harder to beat since their mana is really stable, and vindicate is harsh on this deck. You need to stick a moon effect and end the game as fast as possible. I would maybe take out a few songs and a slogger or two. Pit dragon is your best chance as ending the game fast so at max board out 1. Mauler is huge, as he is the only solid beater if he gets into play and then they resolve humility(keeps +1 counters).

That's a solid list and a cool sideboard. I like it.

How big are your Demonfires usually? I realize that you'll probably be hellbent most of the time, but if you're spitting out big Demonfires anyways, would Banefire be better?

[Charlatan]

Any chance of running Ancient Hydra?

[Zork]

Any chance of running Ancient Hydra?

Why? What matchup would he improve? What card would he be better than?

Please try to be a little more informative in suggesting random cards (especially ones that would force a splash).

[damionblackgear]

Demonfire is an answer to Elspeth along with needle.

Wouldn't Sulfer Elemental do everything you need as well as swing for damage? They won't get tokens until you're already damaging them and you won't have to worry about tokens until they either resolve a humility or wrath. Until then, you can swing into elspeth and hopefully take more of them out that the other way around.

If you don't agree I understand but I also have to agree with Banfire>Demonfire. If you're going to knock out an elspeth with demonfire you're going to have to put 5 into it anyway. Might as well make it the damage unpreventable and uncounterable without the hellbent requirement (just in case you are holding a slogger in hand with only 1 red source).

[Arsenal]

Why? What matchup would he improve? What card would he be better than?

Please try to be a little more informative in suggesting random cards (especially ones that would force a splash).

What are you talking about? Ancient Hydra is RED.

Ancient Hydra would conceiveably be used in an aggro-heavy meta, serving as a more expensive Flametongue Kavu, but a bit more versatile in how much it deals to which creature. Although, at that point, I'd rather run Pyrokinesis over Ancient Hydra/Flametongue Kavu if aggro was my main concern.

[Zork]

My bad; I thought he was talking about the new hydra in conflux.

As for ancient Hydra, I can't imagine what it would replace, as it is worse at its job than slogger and too expensive to replace anything else.

[Arsenal]

It could replace the Mauler/Sulfur/Akroma flex spot if you really, really wanted it to. True, Hydra/FtK/Pyrokinesis aren't 3cc, but they're the best removal options we have available to us that don't detract from the rest of the deck. I wouldn't run that config, but it's definitely not out of the question for others.

[Charlatan]

About Hydra:
I know, it isn't a great creature at all. But people are complaining about killing some creatures just like goyf, tombstalker and at the same time add a pyrokinesis effect.

So I've been searching for some red cards, and i got this hydra. I thought, could test 2-3 in MD, could be good as finisher, jsut like slogger, and make 6 cards that shoots against the opponent.

And. You can attack and remove the counters for dmg...

[Joe_C]

Wouldn't Sulfer Elemental do everything you need as well as swing for damage? They won't get tokens until you're already damaging them and you won't have to worry about tokens until they either resolve a humility or wrath. Until then, you can swing into elspeth and hopefully take more of them out that the other way around.

If you don't agree I understand but I also have to agree with Banfire>Demonfire. If you're going to knock out an elspeth with demonfire you're going to have to put 5 into it anyway. Might as well make it the damage unpreventable and uncounterable without the hellbent requirement (just in case you are holding a slogger in hand with only 1 red source).

Sulfur elemental is only amazing against landstill. Mauler is better in every matchup. If landstill runs humility, elemental does jack. Banefire may be an option, but for now all I have is demonfires

[0dysseus]

I've thought about 2 more different builds. Again mostly theory here.

Build 1
-------

-1 Arc-Slogger

+1 Rakka Mar (suggestion by georgjorge)


If the tokens had haste too, I'd like it.

They have.


1) With Seething Song, Rakka Mar creates a 1st turn 3/1 threat, (and each turn after) or is Daze-proof. 3 turn clock, as Slogger, in the first case.

2) Slogger is StoP-able and Path-able if you play him 1st turn. Rakka Mar is also boltable without chalice, but will possibly leave at least a 3/1 behind. Of course Slogger is die harder.

3) Cheaper than Slogger, fixes hellbent better (that's another reason why I don't want 4 Beast-grandpas-with-moustache).

4) If Slogger uses his "charges" and/or another one comes later, the 2nd will be a tough but ungraceful 4/5 for 5 mana. 1 Rakka Mar isn't. Okay, he'll block with(out) his pet for only 2(3) dmg the turn after he comes in, but he can deal a haste fatality on an open opponent with 2/3.

5) R.M. not only applies pressure with attackers, it also creates excellent blockers AND constant equipment carriers.

6) Protection against Pox removal with sacrifice, token Generator immune to Nethervoid(not Snuff Out, okay), good against WWeirding - Keg & Engineered Explosives, etc..

7) 1 is my favorite number for many Legends, and I won't give that a second thought here because 3 vs. 4 Sloggers are heavily debated by most of the good players. I also think 3 RPDragons is bad, and one reason would be that 2 Sloggers are worse than 2 Flying Hellbent (Pump-the-other-in-case-of-emergency) Dragons, in my humble opinion. So the "expensive" slots are full, 1+3+4.


-1 Blood Moon (2 main, none in the sideboard)

+1 Serum Powder

1) If Serum Powder is in our opening hand and we don't have Blood Moon, we can mulligan with about even chances to get BM in our next 7. We may opt not to use Powder (and draw 6) if we have like 3 Moon effects in our 1st hand and do not want to remove them from the game.
If we don't need the Moon, SerP mana accelerates after the first threats and helps against Smallpox -Land destruction. The bad thing is it isn't red to pitch to Mox/Pyrokinesis. Also multiples on the table when using this deck would make me puke. So I suggest just 1 as Moon's "Joker".

2) If SerP comes mid-late game it will be better than a second Moon. Against a deck that Moon is Uber we would had mulliganned to Moon. If Moon is destroyed later, then ok, bad luck with Serum Powder in the 3rd Moon's place, but as City of Traitors will be vulnerable to a land drop again and Tombs will hurt, 1 more colorless will be handy to cover more expensive costs. Of course we have less red mana again in this scenario, that's a con too.


-4 Taurean Maulers

+1\2 Goblin Assault
+1\2 Vexing Shusher (I think 2 Shushers are better)
+1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage or Arc Mage (as pitchers +moar)

All the above supported with 3 equipments in the deck, not 2. I like the two different Swords with my Jitte. If you play 2/3 Jitte maindecked (it is most probably better than Swords) then you'll have a continuous extra pitcher to enable hellbent when having the second Legendary in your hand or an uncastable beef. A little direct dmg here to compensate for my 3 Sloggers as well. I favor Jaya, for she disenchants blue, but Arc Mage is more castable.
And I think that Ancient Hydra < Arc Mage, with all respect. Mage stays, pitches and splits the damage. And he is cheap.
These pitchers are 1-ofs because you need just one of them when you will have some more mana to spare for their ability, and because space seems tight even for 1.

I would like to add that Vexing Shusher dodges Nethervoid and then makes our deck ignore it. In a deck with many 3cc spells, he fills up well the remaining RR of Seething Song, after a 3cc is cast.

I know the double reds in the cards I suggest could be problematic. About Goblin Assault, someone had written that a Tarmogoyf could eat them 1/1 Goblins all day. Okay to that, if I can practically disable a Goyf with 2R I'll take it. Their Goyf will attack most probably, and so will we, with 1 additional Goblin (maybe carrying Jitte) each turn. A con is that Shusher will be forced to attack too (and Maulers if you run them with GAssault). Some pros I mentioned about Rakka Mar are true about GAssault too. This is my experimental 23rd\24th "threat", as a 1\2-of because there are more threats needing equipment in this build, and I\'d like to welcome an equipment first. I also like that the source of the threat here is an enchantment, and after a mass creature sweep it is there re-generating.



Build 2 [23 threats]
-------

-1 Blood Moon (2 main, none in the sideboard)
-2 Jitte (1 Jitte main, none in the sideboard)
-1 Arc-Slogger

+4 Burning Wish


SIDEBOARD:
- - - - - - -

1 Anarchy
1 Shattering Spree
1 Boiling Seas (Boil can't be brought via Burning Wish)

1 Tormod's Crypt / Relic of Progenitus
1 Aftershock / Pillage / Stone Rain / Threaten / Empty The Warrens / Tormod's Crypt / Relic of Progenitus


4 Pyrokinesis
3 Trinisphere
4 Pithing Needle


The -4 Maulers configuration could be good for the 2nd build too, with your choice of four other threats from the suggested five. Vex.Shusher especially can help Burning Wish pass Chalice at 2.


That's all folks!

[damionblackgear]

-4 Taurean Maulers

+1\2 Goblin Assault


I like this idea. I think it may be ok to run as a 4 of. It may only be a 1/1 that has to attack but it adds up. and 2 or 3 is insane. If left uncontested a single Assault means a 5 turn clock. Plus, you don't worry about sweepers because they just come back.

I would say try it out with 4 assaults and see what happens.

[Charlatan]

I've been testing Goblin Assault...

And all i can say that is NUTS!!!!

I dont now if is better than Mauler....

But i like this card...

[cheezyhead]

can i see the deck list with goblin assaults?
i am having difficulty to decide what to side out.
many thanks sirs!

[0dysseus]

First of all, the 2nd build's sideboard I posted had 16 cards. Sorry about that. Secondly, maybe we could save some space by cutting the Pyrokinesis in that Burning Wish build and adding a single Pyroclasm, a Last Chance perhaps and Graveyard hate. Something like:

1 Anarchy
1 Shattering Spree
1 Boiling Seas
1 Pyroclasm
1 Aftershock / Pillage / Stone Rain / Threaten / Empty The Warrens / Last Chance

3 Tormod's Crypt / Relic of Progenitus

3 Trinisphere
4 Pithing Needle


If left uncontested a single Assault means a 5 turn clock.

Why do you say that? Is it not a 7 turn clock? 1+2+3+4+5+6 dmg beginning at 2nd turn, is it not?


can i see the deck list with goblin assaults?
i am having difficulty to decide what to side out.

The core of Dragon Stompy is at page 87. Do not add Maulers after that in the non-standard slots, but 1-4 Gob.Assaults plus your choice of threats till you reach 24.

[Joe_C]

Dragon stompy Top*'d at the GP.. HOLY SHIT:eek: :eek: :eek:

[Charlatan]

Dragon stompy Top*'d at the GP.. HOLY SHIT:eek: :eek: :eek:

Oh yeah! I was cheering up for DS!

Nassif is a god damned lucky man, he won the match against DS!

That mull for 5 may be the reason...

[Skeggi]

Here's the list by the way: clicky (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=23984).

[lolosoon]

That mull for 5 may be the reason...
20 lands and Sower of Temptation are the other reason Nassif's MD had a better matchup than traditional Threshold.

Going all-in for a chalice@1 then 1 turn later drop a slogger just to see him join the opponent's army 2 turns after is not that good.

An unanswered Moon-effect is great play I concurr, but Chalice and 3Sphere hurt NLU//Baseruption a bit less than traditional Thresh I think.

Still GG DS !!

[Arsenal]

I think at a tournament as large as a GP, maindeck 3sphere was the right call. However, in a "normal" sized tourney, I don't see how/why maindeck 3sphere gets the job done. You have no disruption to backup a 3sphere, so you really just buy yourself 3 turns if you get it out turn 1 on the play. After that, you're going to be trading one-for-one with your opponent.

[Joe_C]

I think at a tournament as large as a GP, maindeck 3sphere was the right call. However, in a "normal" sized tourney, I don't see how/why maindeck 3sphere gets the job done. You have no disruption to backup a 3sphere, so you really just buy yourself 3 turns if you get it out turn 1 on the play. After that, you're going to be trading one-for-one with your opponent.

seeing that there would be a TON of blue decks, maindecking trini isnt such a bad idea. Although I question running 4 instead of running a 3/3 split of trini/moon. Does he post on this site? Im sure we would all love some discussion on his build in his point of view. His board is quite interesting also, boil can be huge against merfolk, along with pyroclasm as well...

What I would have played for a DS list at the GP:

10 Mountain
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb

4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Chrome Mox
4 Arc Slogger
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
3 Sulfur Elemental(purely for his elspeth token killing ability, and uncounterableness0
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Gathan Raiders
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Vexing Shusher
3 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Seething Song

SB:

3 Trinisphere
1 Blood Moon
3 Pithing Needle
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Powder Keg
3 Boil

[nodahero]

From what I saw of the match Skeggi/Mink had no business making top 4. Kowal had him dead to rights and lost due to a mistrigger off his Confidant. Personally I feel the call by the judge was a little poor although I can see it. What happened (as I remember although I was watching two matches at this point) was Kowal had two confidants in play and revealed for one, placed it into his hand, and then picked up another card and moved it towards his hand keeping it still seperate and then started to move his hand with the card towards the table when the judge called a mistrigger.

The board position Fink was in had him beyond dead as long as he didn't get lucky...

Against Nassif in one of the games he lost he had a slightly sketchy hand with access to turn 1 Chalice at 1 off city on the play followed by turn 2 Magus off a mountain with still another city in his hand along with one other business spell which he shipped back for a very bad all in turn 1 on chalice hand... I.E. he had to go Mountain, Mox (imprint) Chalice at one and pray for no force or be left with 2 cards in hand... Needles to say Gabriel, the next LSV streak, Nassif wasn't a poor player and made sure to have the FoW for the Chalice.

P.S. an "LSV streak" is my new nickname for a Pro winning multiple high level event back to back... I also don't see Nassif cooling off any time soon...

[damionblackgear]

Why do you say that? Is it not a 7 turn clock? 1+2+3+4+5+6 dmg beginning at 2nd turn, is it not?

Bad math on my part. I may have been including damage from other things as well. I don't remember exactly. I'll just chalk it up to bad math. Still seems better than Mauler to me. Especially in multiples.

[uberfrank]

I think the reason for main deck Trinisphere is to disrupt the "free" Force of Will/Daze that are one of the few responses to your early Moons or Chalice. It's also very strong against storm based combos and with most decks having a very low curve vs. yours starting mostly at 3 anyway, it's not such a bad card for game 1 in a lot of match ups.

[Anarky87]

Mink had been playing Magic for like...3-4 weeks before he came to Chicago. We gave him the deck and he won a GPT with it. Then blew everyone away to make T4. -Shrug- If he didn't deserve to be there, then maybe people should have sucked less and stopped losing to prison pieces backed by beats. Just an idea.

[jazzykat]

Mink had been playing Magic for like...3-4 weeks before he came to Chicago. We gave him the deck and he won a GPT with it. Then blew everyone away to make T4. -Shrug- If he didn't deserve to be there, then maybe people should have sucked less and stopped losing to prison pieces backed by beats. Just an idea.

There is a third option, Mink may be really good. Regardless, kudos to him and busting everyone's heads open like cantaloupes. What I want to know is how he kept the deck from losing to itself for so many rounds. My experience is that you have to mulligan relatively aggressively and sometimes you mull yourself into oblivion.

[Joe_C]

There is a third option, Mink may be really good. Regardless, kudos to him and busting everyone's heads open like cantaloupes. What I want to know is how he kept the deck from losing to itself for so many rounds. My experience is that you have to mulligan relatively aggressively and sometimes you mull yourself into oblivion.

The deck can be alittle unforgiving with its opening grips sometimes. Mulling to 6 happens often. I find myself keeping hands that do nothing on turn 1 but then develop after turn 2-4. The deck doesnt do well in topdeck mode, it needs an early win con with disruption to hit early and hopefully ride the game out

[Esper3k]

Trinisphere is also great against all the decks running Brainstorm/Ponder. Those cantrips aren't nearly as nice when you're playing 2U for them :)

[Kuma]

-1 Arc-Slogger, +1 Rakka Mar (suggestion by georgjorge)

I don't think you understand the role of Arc-Slogger in the deck. Arc-Slogger's ability is phenomenal at clearing away blockers and dealing the last few points of damage to the opponent. Arc-Slogger makes Dragon Stompy ridiculously fast and smooth. He's the best creature in the deck and running less than four is a mistake.

"But Kuma, Rakka Mar ends the game quickly too."

Rakka Mar is a 2/2 that creates 3/1 creatures. It's a lot easier to block/burn 2/2s and 3/1s than 4/5s. Also if dropped on turn one and left unmolested they're both turn four kills. Arc-Slogger is burn and creature in one. Rakka Mar is at best several small chumpable creatures.


-1) With Seething Song, Rakka Mar creates a 1st turn 3/1 threat, (and each turn after) or is Daze-proof. 3 turn clock, as Slogger, in the first case.

Casting Arc-Slogger creates a turn one 4/5 threat with four built-in Shocks. Also, if you're afraid of being Dazed, play a different deck. You can't play afraid of countermagic with Dragon Stompy.

By the way, the look on a Thresh player's face when you remove SSG to pay for Daze is priceless.


-2) Slogger is StoP-able and Path-able if you play him 1st turn. Rakka Mar is also boltable without chalice, but will possibly leave at least a 3/1 behind. Of course Slogger is die harder.

Is this an argument for Rakka Mar? It reads as an argument for Slogger.


-3) Cheaper than Slogger, fixes hellbent better (that's another reason why I don't want 4 Beast-grandpas-with-moustache).

Cheaper than Slogger; way worse than Slogger. The hellbent argument is too minor to refute.


-4) If Slogger uses his "charges" and/or another one comes later, the 2nd will be a tough but ungraceful 4/5 for 5 mana. 1 Rakka Mar isn't. Okay, he'll block with(out) his pet for only 2(3) dmg the turn after he comes in, but he can deal a haste fatality on an open opponent with 2/3.

So your argument is that a second Slogger is worse than the first? 99% of the time if you've used all your charges there is no second Slogger -- you've already won.


5) R.M. not only applies pressure with attackers, it also creates excellent blockers AND constant equipment carriers.

I wouldn't call a 3/1 an "excellent blocker". I'd call it a chump blocker. Also, Dragon Stompy doesn't have a problem finding carriers for Jitte -- it runs 21-24 creatures.


6) Protection against Pox removal with sacrifice, token Generator immune to Nethervoid(not Snuff Out, okay), good against WWeirding - Keg & Engineered Explosives, etc..

If you have a Slogger on the table when your opponent casts Nether Void, you should thank them for handing you the game.


7) 1 is my favorite number for many Legends, and I won't give that a second thought here because 3 vs. 4 Sloggers are heavily debated by most of the good players. I also think 3 RPDragons is bad, and one reason would be that 2 Sloggers are worse than 2 Flying Hellbent (Pump-the-other-in-case-of-emergency) Dragons, in my humble opinion. So the "expensive" slots are full, 1+3+4.

Slogger is the better creature. Yes, RPD swings games like no other, but with Slogger you get out front and you stay there.

The correct number of Sloggers and RPDs is four. There really isn't any meaningful debate about it.

Because so many of you seem to have forgotten:


So, in essence, here are the points to consider from most of us who are experts in the deck. Read and review:

1. No, there isn't a better 5-drop than Arc-Slogger.
2. No, we can't fit another 5-drop in the deck unless it can get out of your hand and do something cool for :2::r: or less.
3. No, there isn't a better 4-drop than Rakdos Pit Dragon.
4. No, we can't fit another 4-drop in the deck unless it can get out of your hand and do something cool for :2::r: or less.
5. No, we can't ever fit anything with three red mana symbols in the deck.
6. No, we can't ever fit anything besides Arc-Slogger or Rakdos Pit Dragon with two red mana symbols in the deck.
7. Taurean Mauler is probably the best choice for the last slot. Sulfur Elemental is acceptable in certain metagames. Akroma is arguably playable still.

[Esper3k]

My issue with Rakka Mar is also that she loses to mass red removal like Pyroclasm or Volcanic Fallout.

Slogger is great because he's one of the few ways in DS that you can actually remove blockers other than just attacking.

[uberfrank]

I think the philosophy of any Stompy archetype is to pose a number of threat and challenge your opponent to find the right answer.

In the case of Dragon Stompy, you got your Maulers, RPD, Gathan Raiders and Sloggers that are your main path to victory. The complimentary strategy of the deck is the disruption, in the form of CotV, Blood Moon and Trinispheres.

When you put CotV@1, you're basically locking a lot of answers and means of finding answers from your opponent, which further advances your plan. You eliminate their options of dealing with your threats. With moon effects, you're saying can you deal with me without your nonbasic lands?

Given the speed of the format, the acceleration from Chrome Mox, SSG and Seething Song helps you take the initiative.

I'm not sure if no disruption is an automatic mulligan. I think your starting resources are very valuable and with basically no card advantage engine in the deck, you may be better off trying to take a high threat hand the distance rather than risk mulling into oblivion.

Starting with turn 1 Mauler, turn 2 RPD, turn 3 Slogger means they have to find 3 answers right away. If they do have the counter magic, swords or whatever to deal with them, it will leave them vulnerable to your lock pieces that you can find later on.

As someone pointed out, you cant fall in to the fear of counter magic or whatever. I think this is where a lot of people wander off playing this deck. I think the best new suggestion to the deck might be Goblin Assault, since it provides a different angle of attack that grow exponentially in the form of a swarm.

A lot of people compared Goblin Assault to Bitterblossom when it came out and I think most people view it as strictly inferior. However, I think there's a key difference between the two and that's that you'd rather see Bitterblossom once at the beginning and make it stick, whereas with Goblin Assault you'll want to get as many as possible on the table. The card's value increases the more you draw of them, which is not necessarily true for Bitterblossom.

I haven't done the math, but I'm sure 2 Goblin Assaults on turn 1 and 2 turns on a pretty fast clock. If you can supplement that strategy with great equipment, I think it becomes even better.

The downside might be the effect that forces your Maulers to attack, so maybe you'd be better off running Sulfur Elemental alongside.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents for now and congrats to Mink on his great run at the GP.

[Dirtyoldguy366]

Here's some things i've learned about the deck in the past few weeks playing it on MWS.

1. Don't be affraid to mulligan but dont undervalue hands with no first turn plays.
Hands that would be good with an additional mana source on turn 2 or 3 are still acceptable depending on the opponent. Sure it is nice to play turn 1 chalice, trinisphere, blood moon, taurean mauler, magus of the moon, etc. (any card in our deck is a good first turn play except equipment... conditionally) Sometimes your best play is mountain go, followed by mountain go, followed by mountain(or ancient tomb/city to stop daze)... trini/mauler/magus/blood moon.

2. This deck runs a lower land count than other decks so sometimes if a hand looks vulnerable to wasteland it is better to wait a turn than lose a nonbasic. On the other side of this spectrum, do not be afraid of wasteland if you can get back to 3 mana the following turn... i guess thats pretty basic, but maybe it needs to be said.

3. Hellbent.... When you draw hands with pit dragons and raiders, try to contemplate what you could draw that would let you get hellbent faster, but also cards that will stop you from getting it. An odd seething song or arc slogger can make this difficult, and moon effects and moxen with trinisphere on the board can hurt you here... but the effects of these lock components, if you expect the decks that Dragon Stompy are good against, are too great to not play quickly. If you are torn between playing a lock component and achieving hellbent... pay the lock component.

4. Sideboard. James mink runs boil. Awesome! If your metagame is anything like mine ther are not only a lot of nonbasics but those nonbasics are often islands... The hardest part of sideboarding any deck is determining what cards are weakest against the given opponent's deck. Against control seething song is a great card to board out seething song along with some of the cards which it allows... arc slogger.. I've been loathe to sideboard out simian spirit guides or moxen... is this ever a good idea?

this is perhaps the most conflicted i am with the deck. At first i had written the deck off as junk, however with substantial playtesting i can see the place for the deck. Look at the manabases for chicago... David Caplan's Thresh list only runs 18 NONBASIC lands. James Mink made an excellent meta call and from the looks of things the deck just turned sour in top 8 matchups... which is a think that can hapen to a deck with no draw engine. I feel that with careful and thoughtful mulligans against a meta with a lot of the manabases like the top 8 a chicago Dragon Stompy could be a dominating archetype. Good luck..

Questions: When is it OK to sideboard simian spirit guides, moxen, and seething song? my sideboard looks like exactly like Mink's Sideboard


1 Blood Moon
4 Boil
1 Pithing Needle
3 Powder Keg
4 Pyroclasm
2 Umezawa's Jitte

[Kuma]

I think the best new suggestion to the deck might be Goblin Assault, since it provides a different angle of attack that grow exponentially in the form of a swarm.

I've done no testing with Goblin Assault, but there are a few glaring problems with the card. Goblin Assault is an even worse late game topdeck than Taurean Mauler. No deck with creatures will worry about 1/1 creature tokens that have to attack each turn.

That said, Goblin Assault is the best card you can run in the final slot versus Goblins. Getting your beater is nice, but forcing their goblins to attack every turn is game changing. It's not bad against creature-light decks like Thresh and Landstill, but neither deck is forced to answer it.

Goblin Assault would be a decent call in a high Goblins meta, but Goblins is a dying deck. Most of the time, I'd rather have Mauler.



I haven't done the math, but I'm sure 2 Goblin Assaults on turn 1 and 2 turns on a pretty fast clock.

Two Taurean Maulers turns one and two is almost certainly faster.


4. Sideboard. James mink runs boil. Awesome! If your metagame is anything like mine ther are not only a lot of nonbasics but those nonbasics are often islands... The hardest part of sideboarding any deck is determining what cards are weakest against the given opponent's deck. Against control seething song is a great card to board out seething song along with some of the cards which it allows... arc slogger.. I've been loathe to sideboard out simian spirit guides or moxen... is this ever a good idea?

The only decks against which Boil is better than moons are Merfolk and Faerie Stompy. Isn't eight moons enough to mess with blue manabases? Also Boil costs four mana which can make it difficult to cast.

It's never really a good idea to board out Moxes and Spirit Guides. They're too crucial to consistency.

And what problem cards does Powder Keg deal with that Pyroclasm/Pyrokinesis don't?

[mercc]

Two Taurean Maulers turns one and two is almost certainly faster.




Plows destroy your mauler-plan, it can't deal with assaults

[Kuma]

Plows destroy your mauler-plan, it can't deal with assaults

Squires destroy your Goblin Assault plan, they can't deal with Mauler.

[Tacosnape]

The problem with Goblin Assault is that any blocker shuts it off. Nobody plays Squire, obviously, but that said? Any guy with toughness 2 can just shut the card off. And due to how aggressive Dragon Stompy is, it's in the nature of most decks to play defensively against it at first. Therefore stopping Goblin Assault leaves them playing just how they should.

Mauler at least has a chance of overpowering a threat if he comes down early enough.

Anyway, so, I've been doing some serious work as to what to do with the deck's propensity to not be able to do anything on turn one on hands where it's correct to lead with a Mountain. Because let's face it, this is a problem. Especially after mulliganing to six. So I'm open to suggestions.

Here are the two cards I actually decided were worth testing.

Card #1. Forgotten Cave.

The pros of Cave are several. On a land heavy hand, you can lead with Mountain, cycle Cave. Alternately, in a hand where you'd be leading with Mountain, Go, you can also lead with Cave, Go. Midgame, it increases your chance of cycling into a creature when you need to topdeck one most.

The downsides are that it comes into play tapped, which is a pain, and is susceptible to Wasteland.

After a lot of testing, I decided the drawbacks of not being able to drop it and get the mana immediately probably weren't worth it, but I just thought I'd share this.

Card #2. Keldon Halberdiers.

Oddly better. 4 points of first strike haste is rather neat, especially when it comes down right after you just got a Slogger on the board, and can Slog-shoot an annoying 5 or 6 toughness Tarmogoyf if they choose to block your Halberdiers. It's playable off Tomb/City/Red Source if drawn midgame, but that's still tricky given that very often Dragon Stompy stops at four mana and plays a Slogger off an SSG or Song (And Seething Song into Keldon Halberdiers is a far less cool play.)

Keldon Halberdiers gives you something to do with a slow hand on turn one, though. It's stoppable with Stifle, which sucks, because the rest of your entire deck isn't. It also doesn't play nicely with Trinisphere, meaning one of them has to go sit in the sideboard. Threats in your sideboard isn't a bad option though, because very often after game one, either Moon or Trinisphere's going to your board.

Probably still isn't worth the effort, but it's a fun thing to try.

[mercc]

Well, a little measly 1/1 goblin is huge when i get jitte down on it, even I know that hasting 1/1s arent good by themselves..
And if they miss the first one, i'm always gonna do atleast 1 damage per turn and holding one of their guys of. Multiple assaults is redicilous

[Tacosnape]

Well, a little measly 1/1 goblin is huge when i get jitte down on it, even I know that hasting 1/1s arent good by themselves..
And if they miss the first one, i'm always gonna do atleast 1 damage per turn and holding one of their guys of. Multiple assaults is redicilous

Then you're relying on having a Jitte at this point. You can't rely on finding a card in a deck that has no draw. What makes Dragon Stompy win is how many of the cards in the deck create a near-irrecoverable game state for the opponent by themselves. Cards like Slogger, Dragon, Magus/Blood Moon, etc.

Decks get away with things like Counter-Top because they run a ton of draw to find both pieces, and the latter piece helps find the former. Dragon Stompy can't get away with much in the 2-card combo field.

FWIW, I'm not even sure Jitte's the best equipment anymore. I'm tinkering around with a couple other options. But right now there aren't many slots in the deck for equipment due to the nature of being unable to draw.

[Joe_C]

Ok Tash ;)

also, boil in the sb is pretty huge. only costing 3R and sine its an instant makes it really sexy against merfolk. its handy against landstill too and bodaciuos against MUC.

[mercc]

Then you're relying on having a Jitte at this point. You can't rely on finding a card in a deck that has no draw. What makes Dragon Stompy win is how many of the cards in the deck create a near-irrecoverable game state for the opponent by themselves. Cards like Slogger, Dragon, Magus/Blood Moon, etc.

Decks get away with things like Counter-Top because they run a ton of draw to find both pieces, and the latter piece helps find the former. Dragon Stompy can't get away with much in the 2-card combo field.

FWIW, I'm not even sure Jitte's the best equipment anymore. I'm tinkering around with a couple other options. But right now there aren't many slots in the deck for equipment due to the nature of being unable to draw.

I'm not relying on jitte, as i said, after the first goblin comes through i'm gonna go 1+ every turn, even better with more assaults.

This deck relies on having seething song for slogger, that's a 2-card combo..

[Joe_C]

FWIW, I'm not even sure Jitte's the best equipment anymore. I'm tinkering around with a couple other options. But right now there aren't many slots in the deck for equipment due to the nature of being unable to draw.

I think it is really the best one we can use.. Its the cheapest being 2 to cast and 2 to activate. And when it lands early on a lone creature it can just win you the game. I have been running 2 shushers in my deck and I have been loving them so far. They can make for retarded protected plays early on and help force through a jitte when you have a chalice @2 out(Ive done this countless times).. This is what I am running at the moment :

10 Mountain
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb

4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Chrome Mox
4 Arc Slogger
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
3 Sulfur Elemental
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Gathan Raiders
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Vexing Shusher
3 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Seething Song

SB:

3 Trinisphere
1 Blood Moon
3 Pithing Needle
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Powder Keg
3 Boil

[NecroYawgmoth]

and... Yes, you can Shusher the Chalice-Ability...

just a question:

How does the Standard DS-Sideboard look like, nowadays...

Is it like in the past:

4 Pyrokinesis
4 Pithing Needle
x Jitte, Moon, Trini which doesn't fit in the mainboard
remaining Slots: Tormod's Crypt

...or has something changed??

YawG

[Wereodile]

I am very close to getting this deck built and I am leaning towards something closer to the deck that was played in Chicago with Trinisphere MD. A lot of lists here do not have them in the main, so is the general concensis that it belongs in the board? I do like the idea of dropping a chalice and a Trinisphere turn 1. There's no reason to post my DL as it's pretty much the same as the Chicago GP deck but here's my board:

4x Pyroclasm
3x Boil
3x SoFI
3x Relic of Progentitus
1x Blood Moon

With that last slot I am thinking of putting a 4th Boil in but I see every board has a Pithing Needle in it, is it that important? Also one last thing (sorry for all the Noobish questions) what about Defense Grid? I am assuming it's not in there because the Chalice-sphere tag team is far stronger.

[NecroYawgmoth]

...there are some Enchantments like Pernicious Deed or CoP:Red who wreck us like hell.

We can only handle them with P. Needle


Needle is besides that overall an good card against LS and some other MUs

YawG

[Wereodile]

...there are some Enchantments like Pernicious Deed or CoP:Red who wreck us like hell.

We can only handle them with P. Needle


Needle is besides that overall an good card against LS and some other MUs

YawG

Thanks! I will toss a needle in the board.

[Joe_C]

Thanks! I will toss a needle in the board.

I would suggest running more than 1. Elspeth is a huge issue we cant deal with either especially if it followed a wrath of god or another board cleaner. Needle is good against EE(which can be set at 3 easily engough to blow up your moons and magus's) I run 3 personally. I wouldnt run just 1.

[Zork]

Most people have not approved of 3sphere main, but some of us have never, ever taken it out. If you don't want multiples just play 2-3.

[Wereodile]

Most people have not approved of 3sphere main, but some of us have never, ever taken it out. If you don't want multiples just play 2-3.

I just like being able to accelerate into a Chalice/Sphere lock on turn 1 which should buy this deck enough time to go for the win or at least gum up the works enough to keep them out of the game

@ Joe C - thanks! I will have to suck it up and buy myself some needles then :)

[Wereodile]

So I played the deck for the first time and I friggin' love this deck! I feel it has a good first game match up against everything except heavy control. I am really loving the main decked Trinisphere I tested it last night against Meathooks, Eternal Garden and Elephant Stompy and in all those matchups an early Chalice and 3 Sphere really made the match.

Does anyone use REB in the board against control or is there something I'm missing because being hit with a FoW on the first turn really slows the deck down as it really relies on it's first turn to establish solid board position.

[Joe_C]

So I played the deck for the first time and I friggin' love this deck! I feel it has a good first game match up against everything except heavy control. I am really loving the main decked Trinisphere I tested it last night against Meathooks, Eternal Garden and Elephant Stompy and in all those matchups an early Chalice and 3 Sphere really made the match.

Does anyone use REB in the board against control or is there something I'm missing because being hit with a FoW on the first turn really slows the deck down as it really relies on it's first turn to establish solid board position.

i have seen REB in very few builds, but I wouldnt run it. We want chalice at 1 to hit, which shuts off REB. On turn 1 our plays are either going to be 2CC(chalice at 1) or 3cc(moon/trini/magus etc..). So if you play a 3cc on turn 1 and want it protected by REB you will need to get 4 mana online, which can be a bitch. This is why I run 2 shusher maindeck. Its a 2 drop beater that cant be countered, will draw an early STP from your opponent, and makes for hands like turn 1 mox, tomb, seething song, shusher, uncounterable chalice @1. And next turn you can drop a land and play jitte and equip it to shusher. That can be huge. Ive played tons of games with the deck, and I play in a blue heavy metagame. Shusher is good for me... You may want to test him out. Also since I play in a blue metagame I also picked up playing The Mighty Quinn- that deck is sick

[Wereodile]

i have seen REB in very few builds, but I wouldnt run it. We want chalice at 1 to hit, which shuts off REB. On turn 1 our plays are either going to be 2CC(chalice at 1) or 3cc(moon/trini/magus etc..). So if you play a 3cc on turn 1 and want it protected by REB you will need to get 4 mana online, which can be a bitch. This is why I run 2 shusher maindeck. Its a 2 drop beater that cant be countered, will draw an early STP from your opponent, and makes for hands like turn 1 mox, tomb, seething song, shusher, uncounterable chalice @1. And next turn you can drop a land and play jitte and equip it to shusher. That can be huge. Ive played tons of games with the deck, and I play in a blue heavy metagame. Shusher is good for me... You may want to test him out. Also since I play in a blue metagame I also picked up playing The Mighty Quinn- that deck is sick

Seriously Joe thank you. I am really sold on this deck and Shushers are going in, I will most likely encounter a lot of Aggro-Control (meathooks etc) so I think the Shusher could go along way.

[NecroYawgmoth]

I dont like Shusher for the reason it costs too much red mana, and you need more red mana to make your spells uncounterable...

hmmm, blue heavy metagame...

What about Boil?

[Wereodile]

I dont like Shusher for the reason it costs too much red mana, and you need more red mana to make your spells uncounterable...

hmmm, blue heavy metagame...

What about Boil?

Boils are currently in the board no doubt about that. I'm not sure if they warrant the MB slot, I guess I will just have to test against a lot of blue to see if it's worth it.

[NecroYawgmoth]

I wouldn't find any space to maindeck Boil^^
...first of all I would think about Trini before I think about Boil MB

My current List looks like this, and I'm happy with it [I just don't like the 3rd Jitte (it was Rakroma before), but I think I need it becaue I cutted a Pyrokinesis in the SB]


10 Mountain
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb

4 Arc-Slogger
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Taurean Mauler
4 Seething Song
3 Blood Moon
4 Chrome Mox
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Umezawa's Jitte

///
4 Trinisphere
4 Pithing Needle
4 Boil
3 Pyrokinesis


Just a question to all the other DS-Players...

What about going FS-Style and exchange 1 Mountain for 1 Chartooth Cougar?


YawG

[Joe_C]

chartooth seems like an intersting idea, but really, we should be doing more effective things with the 2 mana.

Also, shushers casting cost is not really a problem. It is another card that can pitch to mox and since I am only running 2 I havent really come across a situation where he was in my hand and I couldnt use him for something. If anyone doubts his spot that's fine. I would just be the only one running him, I like him in the deck.

[Wereodile]

So my list has 61 cards so somethings gotta go. Also Price of progress really sucks under a moon effect so I am going to drop them out of the board I think. Let me know what you think.

//Dragon Stompy//


//Creatures//

4x Rakdos Pit Dragon
4x Arc Slogger
4x Gathan Raiders
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Magus of the Moon
2x Vexing Shusher

//Spells//

4x Seething Song

//Enchantments//

2x Blood Moon

//Artifacts//

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Trinisphere
4x Chrome Mox
2x SoFI

//Land//

4x Ancient Tomb
3x City of Traitors
2x Wasteland
10x Mountain

//Sideboard//

4x Pyroclasm
3x Boil
3x Price of Progress
3x Relic of Progentitus
1x Blood Moon
1x SoFI

[jjjoness']

Price of Progress doesn't suck under a blood moon, really. Blood Moon's ability is a subtype changing effect, and thus only changes all non-basic lands' subtype to mountain. And since "basic" is a supertype, non-basics are still non-basics.

Is Wasteland really worth running? To me, it just seems to make the deck even more inconsistent. Also Trinisphere maindeck is kinda weird, I'd only run it if my meta was infested with combo, which it shouldn't be anyways, because DS beats decks that beat combo. And isn't Jitte > Sword of Light and Shadow > Sword of Fire and Ice?
How has Shusher been working for you?

[Wereodile]

Price of Progress doesn't suck under a blood moon, really. Blood Moon's ability is a subtype changing effect, and thus only changes all non-basic lands' subtype to mountain. And since "basic" is a supertype, non-basics are still non-basics.

Is Wasteland really worth running? To me, it just seems to make the deck even more inconsistent. Also Trinisphere maindeck is kinda weird, I'd only run it if my meta was infested with combo, which it shouldn't be anyways, because DS beats decks that beat combo. And isn't Jitte > Sword of Light and Shadow > Sword of Fire and Ice?
How has Shusher been working for you?

Thank you on the clarification on PoP, maybe I will leave them in yet.

I like the wasteland, if you manage to land a moon effect and you have a wasteland out it's a bit of a rattlesnake, if they pop the moon they lose a land, so far in (limited) testing I haven't seen an issue though I could see it making for some tough mulligans.

I like MB 3ball because when you land it plus a chalice you have basically locked your opponent out of the game, giving you a couple of turns to build board position.

I will admit that SoFI is not the optimal equipment, If I owned 2 Jittes that would probably be in the main, currently own only one.

The Shusher I am still not sure of, as I run the 3ball and Chalice anyways I may not need the extra control help but an uncounterable 2 drop is not bad.

[Joe_C]

Wereodile: if your posted list is 61 cards and you want to go to 60. Drop the 2 wastelands and go +1 city. The 10 Mountain, 4 City, 4 Tomb manabase is pretty much the most effective I have played. Wasteland is nice at times, but we cant waste our land drops and having more non red producing lands is not what the deck needs. Have you ever had hands where you have no red sources but 3 land? Even mulled to 6 with the same problem? I have, thats why you dont run more than 8 non red producing lands. If you do, they better produce 2 mana so you can get a turn1 chalice out of them....

[Wereodile]

@ Joe C: I hear you on the wastelands, I may have gone overboard on the disruption a bit. Are you finding that 18 land is enough?

[Arsenal]

18 land, 4 SSG, 4 Chrome Mox, and 4 Seething Song tend to get the job done. That's the standard mana config, and I see no reason to alter it.

[Wereodile]

18 land, 4 SSG, 4 Chrome Mox, and 4 Seething Song tend to get the job done. That's the standard mana config, and I see no reason to alter it.

sometimes my desire to innovate trumps my logic to just run something that has already put up numbers :)

[ScatmanX]

I know that Seething Song and Arc Slogger have been in this deck for ever, but, just for the sake of exercise, why don't we try something like this:


// Lands
10 [BD] Mountain (2)
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors

// Creatures
3 [SHM] Vexing Shusher
2 [PLC] Sulfur Elemental / Taurean Mauler
2 [MOR] Countryside Crusher / Taurean Mauler
4 [FUT] Gathan Raiders
4 [DIS] Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide

// Spells
3 [9E] Blood Moon
3 [9E] Stone Rain
2 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
3 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [MR] Chrome Mox

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [9E] Blood Moon
SB: 4 [8E] Boil
SB: 3 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [IA] Pyroclasm
SB: 3 [UD] Powder Keg

From my point of view, Song is in there to cast T1 Slogger, or to cast 2 3cc T2. I'm guessing those are not the best play to do those turns.

This deck has the same manabase, it has the freaking good creatures (Mauler and other dudes is a matter of preference, so I leave it open), it plays Trni and Stone Rain to suplement it (I know it's odd, but has anyone tryed it?)...

Well, not saying it's the best configuration, just imagining if yoou guys can defend those cards (Song and Slogger) well enough...

[Wereodile]

I think Seething song needs to be in there, it gives the deck a nice explosive start or to push through multiple mid-game plays if the board gets clogged up.

My groups best idea for a replacement to the slogger strategy is Cursed Scroll or Magus of the Scroll. Even then they don't sound so hot due to us trying to go hellbent asap.

I've had a couple of games where slogger has been MVP, you just work them over with RPD then just mill with Slogger ftw.

I know this is a long shot but what about Grim Lavamancer? (I only mention it because I got picked one up)

[mercc]

I know that Seething Song and Arc Slogger have been in this deck for ever, but, just for the sake of exercise, why don't we try something like this:


// Lands
10 [BD] Mountain (2)
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors

// Creatures
3 [SHM] Vexing Shusher
2 [PLC] Sulfur Elemental / Taurean Mauler
2 [MOR] Countryside Crusher / Taurean Mauler
4 [FUT] Gathan Raiders
4 [DIS] Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide

// Spells
3 [9E] Blood Moon
3 [9E] Stone Rain
2 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
3 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [MR] Chrome Mox

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [9E] Blood Moon
SB: 4 [8E] Boil
SB: 3 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [IA] Pyroclasm
SB: 3 [UD] Powder Keg

From my point of view, Song is in there to cast T1 Slogger, or to cast 2 3cc T2. I'm guessing those are not the best play to do those turns.

This deck has the same manabase, it has the freaking good creatures (Mauler and other dudes is a matter of preference, so I leave it open), it plays Trni and Stone Rain to suplement it (I know it's odd, but has anyone tryed it?)...

Well, not saying it's the best configuration, just imagining if yoou guys can defend those cards (Song and Slogger) well enough...

I cut song + slogger a long time ago, whenever i played the deck, those were the cards that could ruin it all.. song without slogger and vice versa, horrible.
sure, a 5 mana-creature turn 1 better freaking win you the game _sometimes_, but alot of the times he just gets plowed or snuffed or something.

i play goblin assault and maulers. with 3 jitte.

stone rain looks nice, a way to make trinisphere a prison card and shutting their mana down.

[Mayk0l]

After Magus of the Moon, Slogger has won me the most matches of any of the cards in the deck. I've had so many games where I'd run out of gas, topdeck Slugger, burn 8 and win. If you want to play without it, sure, but I think it's a step back whichever way you go from there.

Song is awesome in that it fuels RPD and Slogger, but also allows insane plays like Tomb, Mox, Song, Chalice, Magus. Plays like these are the reason people fear this deck.

[Wereodile]

Song is awesome in that it fuels RPD and Slogger, but also allows insane plays like Tomb, Mox, Song, Chalice, Magus. Plays like these are the reason people fear this deck.


That my friends is why I play the deck.

[mercc]

You are talking about cardcombinations that are rare, i can make up combinations of cards from any color that is extremely good as well.
it's just that this deck mulls to oblivion. what shall we do about it?

we cut the crap and keep the good chalice and maguses and good threats for 2R.

[Wereodile]

The deck is full of 4 off's I find it mulls quite well actually. The deck has quite a few very serviceable first hands containing 3-4 mana and the aforementioned hands of 5-6 mana which of course are going to be rarer but they still show up enough to warrant keeping the Slogger in there.

[mercc]

well, I didn't have any success at all today, on the other hand i faced a lot of basics.
but as this deck was created because of a meta with very few basics, the meta has adapted and is ready. what do we do next?

the 20 most recent decklists posted on this forum have _so little_ tweaks in them.
2 shushers or no shushers
4 maulers or none.
3 sloggers or 4?

i must say... WOW, i'm applauding.. the tweaks that will make this deck tier1? I think not.

Ad nauseum decks are having success without Infernaltutor-Lions eye because they thought it was all-in.
Then what is seethingsong-slogger? all-in.

it's time to try something new.

[Joe_C]

well, I didn't have any success at all today, on the other hand i faced a lot of basics.
but as this deck was created because of a meta with very few basics, the meta has adapted and is ready. what do we do next?

the 20 most recent decklists posted on this forum have _so little_ tweaks in them.
2 shushers or no shushers
4 maulers or none.
3 sloggers or 4?

i must say... WOW, i'm applauding.. the tweaks that will make this deck tier1? I think not.

Ad nauseum decks are having success without Infernaltutor-Lions eye because they thought it was all-in.
Then what is seethingsong-slogger? all-in.

it's time to try something new.

if you play in a meta where there are alot of basics, play a different deck. They meta didnt change because of dragon stompy, trust me. And you are foolish for thinking this deck can compete without seething song/slogger.

[mercc]

if you play in a meta where there are alot of basics, play a different deck. They meta didnt change because of dragon stompy, trust me. And you are foolish for thinking this deck can compete without seething song/slogger.

The first guy who beat me said that he had lost to blood moon effects to many times so that he changed it to have more basics. The meta hasn't changed?
Remember when Magus was T2 and it beat faeries, faeries then went from 0 basics to 7-9 basics.

Well, if you think that this deck is performing well at tournaments, then don't change anything, but let me know when it does well. And please dont say T8 at the grand prix, the only good placing lately, and even people in here wondered how the deck couldn't lose to itself in so many rounds.

[Joe_C]

The first guy who beat me said that he had lost to blood moon effects to many times so that he changed it to have more basics. The meta hasn't changed?
Remember when Magus was T2 and it beat faeries, faeries then went from 0 basics to 7-9 basics.

Well, if you think that this deck is performing well at tournaments, then don't change anything, but let me know when it does well. And please dont say T8 at the grand prix, the only good placing lately, and even people in here wondered how the deck couldn't lose to itself in so many rounds.


http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=330433&postcount=124

happened yesterday. And yes the deck is inconsistent as it mulligans like shit, we all know that, removing seething song wont help that at all. We have no draw sources or shuffle effects. We have to take what our deck gives us.

[thebadmagicplayer]

Just as an update I placed 5th in the bazzar tourney on the 21st with this deck. the list should be in the coverage thread somewhere. I lost to 4c thresh, 2nd round bye, then I beat 2 merfolk decks 2-1, and one goblins deck 2-0 and lost in t-8 to faries. got 2 taigas and 2 savannas

[ChillerKiller0815]

DRAGON STOMPY

Hi Guys,
I haven´t used my DS-Deck for a while and I feel the need to change something. I always wanted to give the deck a slightly more aggressive approach. I was never impressed by Jitte in this deck since it eats up 4 mana and doesn´t help keep the Magus of the Moon alive and sucks in multiples because it denies hellbent. Jitte & CotV @2 don´t go well either.. Also playing a Simian Spirit Guide and needing to equip it with Jitte (total 5 Mana) didn´t impress me. Also the T.Mauler isn´t very exciting.

After I complained a bit I would like to present you a different approach. I don´t say it is better then the one we have since I couldn´t test it an awful lot but what I have seen so far has been very promising. If it doesn´t work I will go back to the more traditional build.

So here is my list:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City Of Traitors
10 Snow-Covered Mountain
18

4 Arc-Slogger
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Rakdos Pit-Dragon
20

4 Chrome Mox
4 Chalice of the Void4
4 Seething Song
3 Blood Moon
3 Goblin Assault
4.Grafted Wargear

22

So what are the changes:

3 Goblin Assault
4 Grafted Wargear

Goblin Assault:
Gives you a constant flow of creatures. These little helpers start to apply pressure early on. At least Goblin Assault binds a creature, because otherwise Goblin Assault can go nutz pretty fast. And multiples are out of this world. So basically GA is a one-time-investment you can capitalize from during the rest of the game. Also worth noting is that an unanswered GA is a very quick clock that can´t be stopped by a single creature after it started going. Also very good against Standstill/Humility; Goblin Weirding and Goblins in general.

Grafted Wargear:
Also a one-time-investment that can be used in multiple ways.
1. First turn MotM gets second turn BOLTPROOF and starts beating fo 5 and becoming a 4 turn clock.
2. First turn Gaithan Rider beats for up to 8 the next turn!
3. Late SSG become a 3 mana investment for a 5/4 Vanilla
4. Goblin Assault becomes a lot scarier when you start to shit 4/3 GOBBOS EACH TURN!
5. RPD can be played turn 4 or 3 with a previously played Wargear in play making the RPD BOLTPROOF the same turn it comes into play. Beating with a pumpable flyer with doublestrike and a 6/5 Body is pretty cool too

So what are the ups and downs when using Wargear over Jitte?
+Wargear isn´t lengendary
+Wargear has no conflict with CotV
+Wargear is faster 3cc vs 2cc +2 for equipping
+When equipped creature dies you can reequip for 0 mana letting you play other stuff.
+Makes your weak creatures an instant threat Jitte starts to rule a turn later
+Is really strong with GA
-Doesn´t give you life Didn´t use Jitte for the lifegain anyways and if I did I normally lost anyway because I couldn´t disrupt/race my opponent
-Can´t be used as Spotremoval  You got me. We would have to live with that.
-2 for 1 when being destroyed If Goblin A. is carrier we don´t care. Normally people spend their Artifact/Enchantment-Removal on stuff like 3Sphere, Moon, CotV or Mox.

Try it out and give me Feedback! It Rock´s since it makes the deck tick a turn faster. I mean Ending a game with a MotM turn 5 all by itself is ……..PRICELESS or Topdecking a SSG turn 7 and being happy about it since you have 2 Wargears online is …….PRICELESS.

[Charlatan]

Just one thing, Powder Keg is against what?

[Joe_C]

Just one thing, Powder Keg is against what?


Ichorid, Landstill(nails man lands and decree of justice tokens, elspeth tokens), decks that run tarmogoyf, goblins etc.... pretty much anything that runs 0-2 cc permanents we want to blow up.

@chillerkiller: Grafted wargear seems interesting, but you do know that game 2 you make all their artifact hate even better against you. Jitte is not that mana taxing as in they need to deal with it or your creature fast or it will win the game in 4 turns. The life gain is really beneficial and being able to eat x/2 creatures after 1 swing is huge in a lot of matches.

[Phantom]

I would really like wargear if everyone weren't packing Krosan Grip and Explosives in their board. Goblin Assault may offset some of the damage, but I doubt it ends up worth it in the long haul.

I'll give it a spin sometime if I can though.

[Esper3k]

I've been having an on-again/off-again love affair with Dragon Stompy (I love me some Pit Dragon).

Goblin Assault seems like an interesting alternative to Tauren Mauler - I'll give it a spin and see how it goes.

It made me sad when red Akroma really stopped being viable anymore :(

[heroicraptor]

Goblin Assault makes Engineered Plague relevant.

[NecroYawgmoth]

hey

How many of you guys really like Jitte in the main?
I play DS for a long time, and very often Jitte is just meh...
I play it when I can, but nearly every other card in this deck is better, and then, I don't equip it, because it doesn't do enough for total cost of 4...

We don't have evasive beaters (only Dragon, and thats 2 Mana more)

The problem with Jitte imo is, that you want to do XXX other things with your mana, and it doesn't pump the creature directly, neither gives it evasion or something...

After the GP, I see many lists without Jitte, because the GP-list shows that Jitte wasn't needed, and it seems to work well without Jitte.

@Taco: I don't think that Jitte is needed as a 2-off core card in this deck.

What did you other guys think about it?

YawG

[DrtyDozen13]

How many of you guys really like Jitte in the main?
I play DS for a long time, and very often Jitte is just meh...
I play it when I can, but nearly every other card in this deck is better, and then, I don't equip it, because it doesn't do enough for total cost of 4...

jitte is a utility card that shines against janky decks that aren't hit by the tier 1 hate that this deck packs. this deck is tailored to beat the top decks, but then it can lose to some random piece of crap because half the cards in the deck are dead. jitte is great utility against random decks because of all the different things it can do. i dont think its optimal against the top tier decks, but provides good equipment against any deck and fixes the bad match ups against those random decks. of course if you never face those kinds of decks and most of your meta is top tier im sure there is a better choice, but if you have a random meta i think jitte does have a place in the md.

@Esper3k: while akroma isnt necessarily optimal in all situations, she is playable. and if playing her makes you happy you go ahead and do it. remember this is a game that you should enjoy playing, i think some people take it too seriously some times.

[Wereodile]

if playing her makes you happy you go ahead and do it. remember this is a game that you should enjoy playing, i think some people take it too seriously some times.

Here, Here!

When it all boils down it's a game, so one or two pet cards here and there should matter too much.


If this has already been discussed my bad:

What about Jaya Ballard as a SB card? In a blue heavy meta (what Meta isn't these days?) I can see her being good, she does fit in to 3cc slot and she does enable Hellbent but the double red and her being a little mana intensive could be an issue.

[Joe_C]

Here, Here!

When it all boils down it's a game, so one or two pet cards here and there should matter too much.


If this has already been discussed my bad:

What about Jaya Ballard as a SB card? In a blue heavy meta (what Meta isn't these days?) I can see her being good, she does fit in to 3cc slot and she does enable Hellbent but the double red and her being a little mana intensive could be an issue.

I think the 1RR cost is tolerable if she is in the board. I personally still prefer shusher against counter decks, although being able to pitch to Jaya is techy. I have seen a few European lists that run her in the board.

[Wereodile]

I think the 1RR cost is tolerable if she is in the board. I personally still prefer shusher against counter decks, although being able to pitch to Jaya is techy. I have seen a few European lists that run her in the board.

I am now playing a singleton Shusher which seems really good but we'll see as I have a tournament coming up in a couple of weeks.

I am also going to do some testing with Goblin Assault to see how all that jazz will work out, right now I am going between 3x Assault 2x Blood Moon or Vice Versa.

[Tacosnape]

I've actually been tinkering with various mana-producing guys in the Mauler slot recently. After a brief failed affair with Grinning Ingus (If it made 1:r::r: instead of :2::r: it'd be the best thing ever), I'm having decent luck with Coal Stoker in the Mauler slot as of late.

What I like Coal Stoker doing is allowing me to be dropping Moons or Chalices while I'm also dropping threats. Stoker/Moon, Stoker/Trinisphere, Stoker/Morph, whatever. He's especially incredible off Seething Song. Song allows you to go Stoker/Chal-2, Stoker/Dragon, or even Stoker/Stoker/Magus.

I'm not going to say at this point that he's better than Mauler. But I think he's an interesting addition and I'm enjoying testing him. And the whole deck just feels way more consistent with him in there. The only matchup I really miss Mauler horribly in is Goblins, because the immunity to Warren Weirding is fantastic, but Goblins is still quite workable. Here's the list I'm screwing around with, for interest.

10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Blood Moon

4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Coal Stoker
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Arc-Slogger

SB: (Not recommended, just screwing around with some ideas)
4 Pyroclasm
3 Flametongue Kavu
2 Grafted Wargear
2 Pithing Needle
2 Boil
1 Trinisphere
1 Blood Moon

[Arsenal]

The thing I like most about Mauler is that he's a 3cc threat that easily becomes bigger than Goyf most times. Bounce is almost non-existent in the format, so he's pretty much there to stay unless your opponent uses a true removal spell on him or he dies in combat.

True, we run other threats that can take down Goyf too (hellbent Raiders, double striking Pit Dragon, Slogger + an activation), but Mauler is 3cc and he doesn't require anything special to get big other than being a part of natural game progression (much like Goyf in that respect).

[Kuma]

Isn't Coal Stoker hurting your consistency, Taco? I know when I ran Mountain Yeti the CMC of four was a pain. And not only does Stoker break one of the cardinal rules of Dragon Stompy, he's only a 3/3. A 3/3 that Lightning Bolts you when you cast it a decent percentage of the time.

On a somewhat unrelated note, what's up with Boil? Aren't eight moons enough to beat blue mana bases? I guess it's a good board choice if you keep running into Merfolk, Faerie Stompy, and MUC along with a good helping of Thresh and Landstill.

I dunno, I've never had much of a problem getting the job done with eight moons.

[Tacosnape]

Isn't Coal Stoker hurting your consistency, Taco? I know when I ran Mountain Yeti the CMC of four was a pain. And not only does Stoker break one of the cardinal rules of Dragon Stompy, he's only a 3/3. A 3/3 that Lightning Bolts you when you cast it a decent percentage of the time.

Strangely, no. By virtue of producing mana, he's actually made me more consistent. And way faster. The downside is I don't get turn one Maulers that turn 7/7 and munch on Tarmogoyf faces. So there you go.

It sort of alters the Dragon Stompy rules. It's a 4-drop, but it's a one-red four drop, and one that can get me multiple red, and one that only costs me a net of one.



On a somewhat unrelated note, what's up with Boil? Aren't eight moons enough to beat blue mana bases? I guess it's a good board choice if you keep running into Merfolk, Faerie Stompy, and MUC along with a good helping of Thresh and Landstill.

Honestly? I'm not sure. I'm testing it out. I tend not to automatically dismiss sideboard choices that top eight Grands Prix. Seems like it's yet another "Hey, look, you lose!" card against Thresh/Landstill/etc, and it's solid against decks packing a lot of basic islands. Which helps against the stupid Blue Progenitus deck popping up in my area.

[0dysseus]

Congratulations to James Mink!!! Dragon stompy kicks ass, despite its suicidal tendencies! The only question about his decklist is why the hell 3 Maulers? Mauler is good but only in 4s, right?



That random one-of Needle in the SB... what is that? :confused:

I wouldn't say random. It's just that it is combined with other cards, and he had no more space. I bet that in all the matches that he sideboarded the Needle, he always sbd other cards with a relevant role as well. Check out Nassif's whole SB. It is made of 1-ofs..(coupled with draw cards main). I think these singletons form answers towards different decks when combined differently(and for the record, I've heard this is called redundancy). I've explained that roughly in page 87.




So your argument is that a second Slogger is worse than the first? 99% of the time if you've used all your charges there is no second Slogger -- you've already won.

I'm not dead sure you're right. Against weenies you're busy removing X/1s n' X/2s to let Slogger attack and then sometimes you're overwhelmed. But I won't insist, due to my limited experience.


I wouldn't call a 3/1 an "excellent blocker". I'd call it a chump blocker. Also, Dragon Stompy doesn't have a problem finding carriers for Jitte -- it runs 21-24 creatures.

An excellent (dealing Bolt combat damage) chump blocker:smile:.. especially if equipped. I usually play with 3 equipments MD.


If you have a Slogger on the table when your opponent casts Nether Void, you should thank them for handing you the game.

Pardon me, but won't a 3cc Snuff-Out be a finishing move against us then?


Goblin Assault is an even worse late game topdeck than Taurean Mauler.

Not if you play 3 equipments, if we are talking about attack. As for defence you're right, because Goblin Assault doesn't prectically create blockers.


Two Taurean Maulers turns one and two is almost certainly faster.

You're right, but a first turn Assault equipped with a second turn Jitte, Grafted Wargear or even a Seething Songed Sword is better. In my humble opinion always.



FWIW, I'm not even sure Jitte's the best equipment anymore. I'm tinkering around with a couple other options. But right now there aren't many slots in the deck for equipment due to the nature of being unable to draw.

Do you mean that the deck's better without any equipment or that Jitte is no more No.1? If you mean the second what would be better? Grafted Wargear, or have you got something else in mind?



well, I didn't have any success at all today, on the other hand i faced a lot of basics.
but as this deck was created because of a meta with very few basics, the meta has adapted and is ready. what do we do next?

the 20 most recent decklists posted on this forum have _so little_ tweaks in them.
2 shushers or no shushers
4 maulers or none.
3 sloggers or 4?

i must say... WOW, i'm applauding.. the tweaks that will make this deck tier1? I think not

This deck is an established one and from that point on it is natural that any changes to it should come slowly.



Ichorid, Landstill(nails man lands and decree of justice tokens, elspeth tokens), decks that run tarmogoyf, goblins etc.... pretty much anything that runs 0-2 cc permanents we want to blow up.

Isn't Powder Keg also good against Enchantress? As for Ichorid, Chalices and 6-8 Moons are more than enough I think.



Goblin Assault makes Engineered Plague relevant.

True. But if you play 1-2 Assaults, as I plan to do, you force him to SB possibly 4 Plagues against your 2 Assaults. If you don't run Maulers(that count as Goblins) will he do it??



I think the 1RR cost is tolerable if she is in the board. I personally still prefer shusher against counter decks, although being able to pitch to Jaya is techy. I have seen a few European lists that run her in the board.

I agree. Jaya Ballard and other pitchers like Arc Mage are good since almost all people run 4 Sloggers and 2+ Jittes. Late game Maulers could be helpful if pitched plenty of times. But I wouldn't play more than 1-2 pitchers because 1)their abilities cost mana that is often more useful elsewhere, 2)we don't want to pitch all the cards when topdecking, and 3) two weak pitchers on board would be very weak (plus that we won't have 2 cards/turn to trash and 5-6 mana for both). We already have 8 one-shot pitching cards maindecked after all.



Isn't Coal Stoker hurting your consistency, Taco? I know when I ran Mountain Yeti the CMC of four was a pain. And not only does Stoker break one of the cardinal rules of Dragon Stompy, he's only a 3/3. A 3/3 that Lightning Bolts you when you cast it a decent percentage of the time.

I agree. We can't afford even more life loss. But we have many cards that utilise that red mana, Dragon, Slogger, Shushers - pitchers if maindecked and equipments. Note that Yeti was even more difficult because it costs 2RR.


Aren't eight moons enough to beat blue mana bases? I guess it's a good board choice if you keep running into Merfolk, Faerie Stompy, and MUC along with a good helping of Thresh and Landstill.

It depends. MUC plays with 1 Academy Ruins and over 20 Islands for example, you do not harm them with moons. Merfolk plays lots of Islands, and while you neutralise their Mutavaults and Wastelands, you can't say that 8 Moons beat them. Same with Faerie Stompy. And as Taco had said, Solidarity is slowed down if its pilot plays 6 fetchies and you play a Moon first...but in any case case with -let's say- at least 10 Islands, I don't think "beat" is the proper word.



And something about Jitte. If it was used in decks that did well in tournaments (main or sb).. if we don't know if it is the best equip.. if it is a great utility card.. if we need more space for something new.. if we can't count on having a Jitte for sure due to DS's no draw anyway..while multiples hurt..

If all these ifs happen to be true simultaneously, try playing 1 goddamn Jitte:)

[Tacosnape]

Do you mean that the deck's better without any equipment or that Jitte is no more No.1? If you mean the second what would be better? Grafted Wargear, or have you got something else in mind?

I meant the former. That said, I will say both of the following.
1. Running exactly one Jitte is a fantastic idea and something I've been doing off and on for awhile now.
2. Grafted Wargear can be -nuts-. It makes SSG and Magus actual physical threats. It's a freeplay off Coal Stoker. It turns Slogger and Raiders bigger than the format. And it makes Pit Dragon just bonkers. Like, outrace a Progenitus bonkers. The downside is obviously huge, though, as it turns Trygon Predator, Krosan Grip, and Vindicate into ridiculous two for ones. So I still don't advocate maindecking it. Or much equipment at all. Equipment isn't a threat and DS has no draw. I tend to use Wargear the most when either Blood Moon or Trinisphere is incredibly weak in a matchup.


I agree. We can't afford even more life loss. But we have many cards that utilise that red mana, Dragon, Slogger, Shushers - pitchers if maindecked and equipments. Note that Yeti was even more difficult because it costs 2RR.

We do. And usually it's enough. And keep in mind that Coal Stoker is the -first- guy you ever play from your hand. Meaning the only time you're running the risk of burning for 3 is when you topdeck him and have to play him to keep Hellbent going or to keep control of the creature situation on the board.

The neat thing about -this- situation, is that if you're doing it to keep Hellbent alive, 50% of your Hellbent creatures can use the mana. And because he's so explosive, you'll have less situations where you have to play him to keep control of the board when you don't.

However, I won't argue the point that he sucks as a midgame topdeck. Then again, he's competing for Mauler and Goblin Assault's slot, and they suck ass midgame also.

[Joe_C]

@ 0dysseus:

Keg doesnt blow up enchantments, so it may set back their token creatures a turn, but then they will just kill you other ways. Enchantress is a terrible match up for stompy anyways, and not widely played either.

Generally like you said, moon effects and chalices are good against ichorid. But if they get ahead of you, wiping the board of tokens with a 2cc artifact isnt bad. Pyroclasm is amazing against ichorid also, and trinisphere can slow them to a crawl.

[Goomba Team]

I don't know if this happens everywhere, but in my meta the prevalence of counter-top, wasteland-stifle and similar things has made people increase their curves, their land count and the number of basics among them, making DS worse, because a turn one trinisphere/moon followed by a song into slogger/riders usually ends in their playing their third/basic land, removing our threats and start recovering while we are just in topdeck mode.

As the problem is the more stable manabases the solution we found is to mess with them in a more direct way: a land destruction plan. A turn one trinisphere/moon backed with a couple of LD spells is usually gg.

We are tinkering with this list:

LD Dragon Stompy:

-Canonical DS mana/accel base:

4 City of traitors
4 Ancient tomb
10 Mountains
4 Chrome mox
4 Simian spirit guide

-Disruption:

4 Magus of the moon
3 Blood moon
4 Trinispheres
3 Chalice of the void

-LD Suite

4 Stone rain
4 Avalanche riders
2 Ogre arsonist

-Beaters:

4 Rakdos pit dragon

-Equipment

2 Swords of light and shadow
2 Umezawa's jitte

-Other

2 Vexing shusher


Card choices:

-Canonical mana base: not much to explain here

-Disruption: Trinispheres and moon effects get better when you attack their lands, so a full set of the first and the seventh blood moon are in. As chalice is getting worse because of the tendence to spraed casting costs so we removed one.

-LD Suite: Stone rain was previously Pillage, but th casting cost of 2R is the best for this deck as we want to cast it without waiting to be able to produce RR. For just one (colorless) more the riders act as stone rains 5-8 in the first turns with a single attack/block attached, later they can get an equipment an join the beatdown. Arsonist are an open slot, but for now they are seconds to riders in doing their job.

-Beaters: if we want to let in the LD spells something as to go, in this case the explosive creatures of traditional builds. The slogger-song duo was the first to be cut due to its inconsistence. By testing we realice that this build doesn't want to be explosive but disruptive so the gathan riders where often sided out and finally dismissed. The dragon keeps being the best beater avaliable, with hellbent and whatnot.

-Equipment: as our threats are smaller running equipment is necesary to make them decent beaters. Jitte is just the best at his work as it triples as lifegain, removal and a clock. We choose SoLaS over other options because of the abundance of white/black removal and creatures around. The lifegain is never bad in a deck with tombs and while half of the time the raise dead ability is plain useless or just meh, in long matches recurring our (limited number of) threats is game-breaking and when paired with an avalanche riders is just insane.

-Other: another flexive slot, we hate countermagic, but different cards could be tested in its place.

A sample sideboard (pretty self-explanatory):

1 Chalice of the void
1 Blood moon
1 Vexing shusher
4 Relic of progenitus/Thormod's cypt
4 Shattering spree/Rack and ruin
4 Volcanic fallout/Pyroclasm/Cave-in/Pyrokinesis

Problems found with the build: as it is slower, the mirror and other stompy decks will outrun us. A resolved aether vial is almost a lost game as we cannot race it.

I recommend giving this build a try because in paper LD seems quite random, but when test it you realize that the difference between beaters and destroying lands is the diference between hoping to end the game before the opponent finds an answer and simple not caring if he finds one because he won't be able to cast it.

Comments and suggestions are apreciated.

[nodahero]

/looks up ogre arsonist.... There has got to be better LD options...
Possible options... Fulminator Mage to compliment the Sword... Goblin Settler if you dont need the effective beat down... Ravenous Babboons... for non-basic hate with an ok body...

While I like the way the deck is going it seems like the arsonist might be a little slow... After all you wana keep them off balance as opposed to keep them slow... Or at least I think that is the general concept of Ponza in this sort of a meta game... After all C-Balance only needs UU to be played.

[0dysseus]

@ 0dysseus:

Keg doesnt blow up enchantments, so it may set back their token creatures a turn, but then they will just kill you other ways. Enchantress is a terrible match up for stompy anyways, and not widely played either.

Generally like you said, moon effects and chalices are good against ichorid. But if they get ahead of you, wiping the board of tokens with a 2cc artifact isnt bad. Pyroclasm is amazing against ichorid also, and trinisphere can slow them to a crawl.

Powder Keg can destroy Argothian Enchantress, that's why I mentioned it is useful:) But aside that, we don't destroy enchantments, and that is the core of that deck.

As for Ichorid, I've played only a few times against it, but a Chalice at 1 and a Moon is Fatality..not to mention Trinisphere. So that's why I said Keg was overkill there.

I really like your Shusher idea (you must have understood that:). I'll also try Grafted Wargear when I can. Someone nicked "la loutre" had posted that option many pages ago.


As for the suggested Land Destro build,I really would like Stone Rains, Avalanche Riders and Trini main, but if you remove Seething Song and good ol' Slogger, will you deal easily with weenie decks that are often monocolored? With Keg maybe? Ogre Arsonist seems too thin n' too expensive. Why don't you remove a Blood Moon, a Jitte, the two Ogre Arsonists and a SOLaS to add some Grafted Wargear, since you disrupt them from disenchanting too? Also without Song your Dragons are weaker. Removing that mana boost, are you sure that taking out Raiders is good? Maybe you should play 2-3, that will come when you're done disrupting and are ready to end the game emptyhanded. I don't know..you could even play Raze with 3-4 Shushers, 2-3 Chalices and 1-2 Mountains more and even add a Seismic Mage, Duergar Hedge-Magi, Dwarven (Blast)miners or Dwarven Drillers. But those seem more like a fun deck. Keep trying and improvising though!

Anyway, I'm off for some souvlaki. I'm eager to try these new ideas of yours Mr.Leif:)

[Goomba Team]

@nodanero

As for the settler the diference in body is worth the aditional mana, and for baboons and fulminators is that we already have nonbasic hate in the form of moon effects, so we search to compliment it with land destruction than can hit basics, although the fulminator interaction with swords might be something worth a try, as we stated the arsonist is something we want to change, thanks for the idea.

What is the problem with counterbalance? The usual starting plan fo DS breaks it as chalice@1 stops top, moon effetcs make harder to get the doubke U (as most decks with counter-top rely in duals), and trinisphere+LD keeps them away from playing it. And in case they get it active dragons, av. riders and arsonits are likely to dodge it and shusher just laught at it. The problem when we refer a countertop meta isn't the countertop itself, but the rest of decks adapting to countertop (for example bant, which as more lands and higher casting costs replacing threshold).

@ Oddysseus

At the moment we like more the versatility of SoLaS and Jitte better than the raw power of grafted wargear, and the problem with the driller tribe is that the summoning sickness often make them a turn too slow. The keg is an interesting adition, and maybe correcting the number of dragons and gathans. As you just say, we will keep trying and improvising.

[Brad Herbig]

I really like the Grafted Wargear idea, possibly even in the main deck. The possibility of a two-for-one with a Krosan Grip or something might be an issue, but the advantage of making Magus and SSG actual threats may be worth it.

Another comment I have to make on some of the deck lists I've seen recently is that Trinisphere should be a 4 of maindeck. The way it messes with Thresh's cantrip engine, goblins cheap costs, and especially storm combo seems too good against the general field to not use to its full extent.

Coal Stoker seems like an interesting beater that I have not yet had the chance to test. It seems kind of gimmicky though, such as a top deck. The mana should add to the consistancy, I agree, but something just seems too "cool" (as in beware of "cool" things). Again, I don't know, I haven't had the chance to test it; this is just my gut feeling on the card. Can those who have tested it reply on this?

[Esper3k]

It's unfortunate that there aren't any good red Evoke creatures that we can bring back with SoLS.

I think Faultgrinder is on the cusp, especially with the LD plan, but man he's just so expensive.

Spitebellows would be interesting too, but that double red in the evoke cost makes it more difficult to cast.

[Tacosnape]

I really like the Grafted Wargear idea, possibly even in the main deck. The possibility of a two-for-one with a Krosan Grip or something might be an issue, but the advantage of making Magus and SSG actual threats may be worth it.

I'm running Wargear as a 3-of in the sideboard right now. My logic is as follows:

1. It's not better than Blood Moon maindeck against a random deck.
2. It's not better than Trinisphere maindeck against a random deck.
3. There's nothing else I'd even remotely consider cutting for it.
4. It's significantly better than either Blood Moon or Trinisphere against a lot of decks.
5. It's often better than Trinisphere when you're going second.


Another comment I have to make on some of the deck lists I've seen recently is that Trinisphere should be a 4 of maindeck. The way it messes with Thresh's cantrip engine, goblins cheap costs, and especially storm combo seems too good against the general field to not use to its full extent.

I'm running 3 main/1 board. I want to run only 2, but it's so good right now I like the third one.

The reason I don't like to run four is simple. I have absolutely no use for two of them. Duplicate Chalices win games. Duplicate Moons at least sit on Moxes.
Duplicate Trinispheres suck.


Coal Stoker seems like an interesting beater that I have not yet had the chance to test. It seems kind of gimmicky though, such as a top deck. The mana should add to the consistancy, I agree, but something just seems too "cool" (as in beware of "cool" things). Again, I don't know, I haven't had the chance to test it; this is just my gut feeling on the card. Can those who have tested it reply on this?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Coal Stoker is the missing link of the deck. I'm just arguing that it very well might be better than Taurean Mauler right now.

The reason I don't like Taurean Mauler is that Dragon Stompy's whole strategy is counterintuitive to what makes Mauler good. Dragon Stompy has no draw, so it relies on getting its card advantage by playing single cards that shut off ridiculously huge portions of the opponent's deck from being useful. We run anywhere from 12-16 cards (Moons, Chalice, Trinisphere) that have no other purpose than to keep the opponent from being able to even play spells. That said, Mauler may still be the best option. Nothing else listed on the last page even sounds remotely useful.

Coal Stoker makes the deck both faster and more consistent. He allows Pit Dragon plays off Tomb/City/Mox or Tomb/City/Mountain. He chains into ridiculously explosive openings. He pumps Dragons. He powers out Chalices and Trinispheres. He's just fantastic. The downside is that he's just a 3/3 in a format where 3/3 doesn't make the cut very often. He's useless against Tarmogoyfs. He won't stop Lackeys like Mauler will. And when you get right down to it, he's just a Hill Giant with a superb mana bonus.

[Zork]

We tested Coal Stoker back when this deck was being developed as Empty the Slogger, since he helped those turn 1 EtWs and could also help drop equipment faster. Eventually, we cut him because he just didn't do anything, along with cutting EtW for Pit Dragon.

[Tacosnape]

We tested Coal Stoker in Empty the Slogger, since he helped those turn 1 EtWs and could also help drop equipment faster. Eventually, we cut him because he just didn't do anything, along with cutting EtW for Pit Dragon.

Fixed. But anyway. My argument for Coal Stoker's that he only has to edge out Taurean Mauler. I think he might. Here's my logic for guessing so.

Dragon Stompy usually loses when one of the following happens:

1. We mulligan ourselves into oblivion.
2. Our game-breaking disruption cards are ineffective, either by being removed, countered, knocked out of our hand, not drawing them, or being weak against a particular deck.
3. We can't get/keep a threat big enough to somehow win the game by itself.
4. We get a slow start and can't ever get the tempo under control.
5. A deck has a strategy we can't deal with, and they pull it off.

My followups to this are as follows.

1. Coal Stoker might cause the deck to Mulligan less. Despite the acceleration, there aren't a lot of situations where I'm sure this is true. But it does a little bit of color fixing.
2. Pretty neutral. Coal Stoker doesn't actually help these cards come down before countermagic or mana for removal can hit play. But it does come down in the same turn as these cards pretty often at least.
3. Mauler's better here. Turn one Mauler means they have a big threat to deal with, and that's one removal spell they aren't spending on Dragon/Slogger.
4. Coal Stoker's way better here. Coal Stoker seizes Tempo like a madman. And Mauler is awful when trying to get speed back under control. Except against Goblins.
5. Stoker makes the deck explode faster against Enchantress. Mauler jumps in front of Goblin Lackey and goes ha-ha. Stoker's probably better at what it does here, but Goblins is way more prevalent than Enchantress.

So Stoker, to me, will continue to get tested until it manages to piss me off worse than Taurean Mauler.

[Zork]

Its funny you should try to correct me on the development of this deck, when the list that became famous was based on EtS and added Pit Dragon from Dragon Stompy in place of Warrens. At that point in time, DS was not running SSG, Gathan Raiders, or Arc-Slogger, and was actually running Razormane Masticore and Earthquake MD. But arguing deck origins is pointless.

As for Coal Stoker, I really liked him in explosive starts, but I think that Mauler still gets the edge in general, and I will respond to your points.

1. Coal Stoker might cause the deck to mulligan less, but I didn't find it to be signifigant. On the other hand, Mauler is much better off of a mulligan because he is easier to cast. I can't count the number of tournament matches that Grey Ogre would have won me just because he costs 3 and not 4.

4. Coal Stoker is much better at tempo, though moreso against aggro than control/aggrocontrol. That is because Stoker can be used to drop an extra threat/equip in the face of aggro, but Mauler functions as disruption himself (albeit not our strongest).

In this light, I feel mauler is stronger, but I would still replace him in a heartbeat if something that was solidly disruptive got printed.

[Tacosnape]

Its funny you should try to correct me on the development of this deck, when the list that became famous was based on EtS and added Pit Dragon from Dragon Stompy in place of Warrens.

So your argument is that Deck A can add cards from Deck B, but Deck B can't add cards from Deck A. Fascinating. This isn't the place for it, though.



As for Coal Stoker, I really liked him in explosive starts, but I think that Mauler still gets the edge in general, and I will respond to your points.

1. Coal Stoker might cause the deck to mulligan less, but I didn't find it to be signifigant. On the other hand, Mauler is much better off of a mulligan because he is easier to cast. I can't count the number of tournament matches that Grey Ogre would have won me just because he costs 3 and not 4.

4. Coal Stoker is much better at tempo, though moreso against aggro than control/aggrocontrol. That is because Stoker can be used to drop an extra threat/equip in the face of aggro, but Mauler functions as disruption himself (albeit not our strongest).

In this light, I feel mauler is stronger, but I would still replace him in a heartbeat if something that was solidly disruptive got printed.

I actually agree with your points. And yes, Mauler off a mull to 5 is much better than Stoker. And I definitely agree that Coal Stoker isn't the fix to the 6th creature slot any more than Mauler is. It's just the battle of what tides us over until they print the missing link. I'm still not sure I agree with the conclusion you get off the points, but I'm not sure I disagree with them either.

[zulander]

Has Masticore been tested?

[lordofthepit]

Has Masticore been tested?

I think it's been discussed in the thread, and the problem is that it has poor synergy with hellbent. In theory, Masticore will get you there faster, but he won't survive.

[Tacosnape]

Masticore and his better cousin, Razormane, were run in the way early types of this deck in place of Arc-Slogger. (And yes, Razormane's the better one if you have to tap Ancient Tombs to fuel Masticore) The subsequent printing of Gathan Raiders and improved mana acceleration in Simian Spirit Guide ended the Masticore era. Hellbent >> Masticore, and Slogger's just insane.

So yeah. Masticore's time has passed. I've never been a fan of regular Masticore, and he just doesn't play well with this deck.

[0dysseus]

Something I've noticed is that most of you guys, whatever changes you try, you leave a full set of 4 Blood Moons and Trinispheres between main and sb. Is that so crucial? I think could play with 3 and 3 and leave even more space.

Also, when testing Coal Stokers, is it a bad idea in your opinion to play with less than 4, because we want to have the mana boost preferably soon?


I'm running Wargear as a 3-of in the sideboard right now. My logic is as follows:

1. It's not better than Blood Moon maindeck against a random deck.
2. It's not better than Trinisphere maindeck against a random deck.
3. There's nothing else I'd even remotely consider cutting for it.
4. It's significantly better than either Blood Moon or Trinisphere against a lot of decks.
5. It's often better than Trinisphere when you're going second.

1. I agree, because most decks in Legacy are crippled by Moons.
2. But lategame it could be better..
3. I could put a Grafted Wargear on the second Jitte's position maindeck. With no Trins main and 3 of them sb.
4. Agreed.
5. Here's something else I want to say about this, and correct me if I'm wrong. When we face Trygon Predator and Vindicate aren't they maindecked most of the time? Let's leave those aside. 6-8 Moons will deal with them after all. But if Krosan Grip comes more often from the sb (game 2) we give the opponent more targets if we play Wargear also on game 2. So on the contrary, if we had it main, and put it to the sb game 2 -predicting Grips will hit- we'll trick the opponent a little, and save our assets from double-kills.

And lastly, if 1-of slots in this deck are being considered, and some of you play with 3 Trinis main, or more dangerously to add to the aggression with Wargear, or even with 1 more land, consider again playing 1-2 Covetous Dragons main or sb, like Olivier Ruel who had had 2 Rorix Bladewings in his sideboard. If destroyed, Wargear kills us a creature. Covetous is fat, and if played as 1, on those lategame-wannasee-card slots, then the opponent would have to destroy a shield of 2-3 artifacts at least to take Covetous down. This could work somehow in a build with 1 more Mountain, or 1 less Arc-Slogger. Speaking of what is more dangerous, we can always choose not to equip Wargear of course. But Covetous Dragon could be an option in this specific case and in the right amount.

[Tacosnape]

Something I've noticed is that most of you guys, whatever changes you try, you leave a full set of 4 Blood Moons and Trinispheres between main and sb. Is that so crucial? I think could play with 3 and 3 and leave even more space.

You absolutely can. I'm actually doing the same thing right now. I'm not entirely convinced there's two better things to spend sideboard slots on, but the deck functions off a 3/3 configuration.


Also, when testing Coal Stokers, is it a bad idea in your opinion to play with less than 4, because we want to have the mana boost preferably soon?

I don't think it's necessary to play with 4 of anything ever unless you actually would want to run more than four of them in a perfect world. Coal Stoker's still the weakest threat slot, so if you're running less than 24 threats, absolutely, run less. You could probably run two Stokers and two Maulers if you wanted. Hell, you could run 1 Stoker, 1 Mauler, 1 Akroma, and 1 Sulfur Elemental, and chances are in the long run it's really not going to make a huge difference. You're still going to win most your games off the backs of your other guys.




1. I agree, because most decks in Legacy are crippled by Moons.
2. But lategame it could be better..
3. I could put a Grafted Wargear on the second Jitte's position maindeck. With no Trins main and 3 of them sb.
4. Agreed.
5. Here's something else I want to say about this, and correct me if I'm wrong. When we face Trygon Predator and Vindicate aren't they maindecked most of the time? Let's leave those aside. 6-8 Moons will deal with them after all. But if Krosan Grip comes more often from the sb (game 2) we give the opponent more targets if we play Wargear also on game 2. So on the contrary, if we had it main, and put it to the sb game 2 -predicting Grips will hit- we'll trick the opponent a little, and save our assets from double-kills.


3. Yes, you could easily maindeck it if you aren't going to maindeck Trinisphere.
5. Or you can just not board in Grafted Wargear against decks packing Krosan Grip. Near Mono-Green in the format is limited to Green Chalice Aggro, to which I say wtfever as you'll find it once in a blue never, and elves, to which you'll be leaving in Chalice and Trinisphere and bringing in Pyroclasm for Blood Moon. Decks splashing green will mean you'll almost always want to keep Blood Moon in, and since a ton of them pack blue, Trinisphere'll stick around also. All that said, I see your point, and Wargear main might be neat to try, as decks packing maindeck Vindicate, at the risk of over-generalization, we either beat with Blood Moon or lose to.



And lastly, if 1-of slots in this deck are being considered, and some of you play with 3 Trinis main, or more dangerously to add to the aggression with Wargear, or even with 1 more land, consider again playing 1-2 Covetous Dragons main or sb, like Olivier Ruel who had had 2 Rorix Bladewings in his sideboard. If destroyed, Wargear kills us a creature. Covetous is fat, and if played as 1, on those lategame-wannasee-card slots, then the opponent would have to destroy a shield of 2-3 artifacts at least to take Covetous down. This could work somehow in a build with 1 more Mountain, or 1 less Arc-Slogger. Speaking of what is more dangerous, we can always choose not to equip Wargear of course. But Covetous Dragon could be an option in this specific case and in the right amount.

It's worth noting that there's no benefit to running dragons in Dragon Stompy other than the fact that some of them are big and evasive. But Covetous and Rorix are both inconsistent. And if you're afraid of losing 2 for 1's with Wargear, you should be equally afraid of it with Covetous Dragon.

That said, If I were going to sideboard a threat, it'd be either Flametongue Kavu against aggro (He can still kill Tarmogoyfs early, and if he can't, he at least can safely hit play when one's out), or possibly Boldwyr Heavyweights against heavy control and combo.

[rleader]

My random one-of threat is Knollspine Invocation: why not turn the rest of your deck into lightning bolts if you don't draw anarchy vs. humility, etc.

Not that I'm recommending it to anybody else; otoh, if anyone knows of an older card that does the same thing but more better, I'd certainly like to hear about it.

[Deathcloud9]

Mink here. I just wrote a huge tournament report and deck analysis for the site in the tournament report section here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=334144&posted=1#post334144

I hope you enjoy it, as it's my thanks for generating many ideas for the build of the deck. Sorry for it taking so long to write. I had a ton of ideas, and wanted to get everything down.

[NecroYawgmoth]

Hey

I've read your report. Very nice.

But I want to ask you:

1.) Why the hell are you running only 1 Needle in the Board? Very much DS-Players are saying that Needle is an automatically 4-of in the board, and you only play 1. I see no logical point in this, you can't even tutor it.

2.) You said tht we really should try the 11th land. I think that could be a good idea, but what do you think about Chartooth Cougar instead?

YawG

[Deathcloud9]

1. For the tournament I was trying to figure out where to squeeze in the numbers for another one. However, as the board's pretty full I'd find it hard to go for more than 2 Pithing Needle. It hits a ton of things yes, but you only really need it in a few matches. Four of them would be overkill, but I think if you cut a Boil for one you could still retain a good match for most of those blue match-ups. I just really enjoyed Boil against U/W landstill so I'd prefer to keep it in. It's possible that I was lucky in not running in to as many Engineered Explosives during the day. Chalice of the Void also seems to slow down/shutdown some of the better Needle targets anyway. Because there the slots are so tight you want to realize where the deck overlaps in its capabilities.

2. Chartooth Tiger seems to be too slow, as the extra land is to be more consistent, not to slow the deck down. To play him efficiently, you'd have to play him turn one off of an Ancient Tomb or the like. As you'd rather do other things that turn you're really setting yourself back to use him. I understand that it'd another body for late game, but the threats already available seem to do the job well. I also rarely would hit six mana, which is why I never really enjoyed having Akroma or SoFi in my hand, as to equip or morph it takes up another turn of my resources when really all I want to do is get hellbent (which simply playing a mountain off the top will do).

[Charlatan]

Just a BIG question that came up to my mind:

"Have anybody here ever tested ensnaring bridge in this deck as SB agains random decks that DS usualy looses ?

Or to stop any aggro from damaging you..

Isn't it a good card for this deck with all this hellbent stuff?

Ty

[Happy Gilmore]

Just a BIG question that came up to my mind:

"Have anybody here ever tested ensnaring bridge in this deck as SB agains random decks that DS usualy looses ?

Or to stop any aggro from damaging you..

Isn't it a good card for this deck with all this hellbent stuff?

Ty

You do realize that Ensnaring Bridge is symetrical right?

[CowTipper]

What about sigil of distinction? Isnt it just better than grafted wargear?

[Charlatan]

You do realize that Ensnaring Bridge is symetrical right?

oh sry, my bad!!!

[Esper3k]

What about sigil of distinction? Isnt it just better than grafted wargear?

You know, Sigil seems interesting, especially later game when you're sitting around on a lot of mana anyways. Sigil on a Pit Dragon seems to have a lot of potential for pain :)

[NecroYawgmoth]

Sigil is only interesting in the late game, and you have no options to tutor it, like FS

[Tom709]

I've been testing the following 3 cards in Dragon Stompy with reasonable success:
Grafted Skullcap; Great with Hellbent and much needed draw. As long as no one is playing Hurkyl's Recall.
Gauntlet of Might; Works with moon effects and pumps critters. Helps power out monsters and big fireballs.
Banefire; Great finisher and gives the deck a removal option. Gotta love "Can't be countered or prevented".
Thoughts?

[Radiant]

I've been testing the following 3 cards in Dragon Stompy with reasonable success:
Grafted Skullcap; Great with Hellbent and much needed draw. As long as no one is playing Hurkyl's Recall.
Gauntlet of Might; Works with moon effects and pumps critters. Helps power out monsters and big fireballs.
Banefire; Great finisher and gives the deck a removal option. Gotta love "Can't be countered or prevented".
Thoughts?

How many copies of each card did you use during testing?

Grafted Skullcap: I don't think it is good in this deck. It does not really help you to get Hellbent, because you draw the card at the beginning of your own drawstep. So so start the turn with 2 cards, which you can't play both most of the time (Slogger+Dragon f.e.). Skullcap grants you hellbent during your opponents turn, but not when you need it the most, in your own combat phase.

Gauntlet of Might: That seems even worse, because +1/+1 on your already fat guys seems like a drop of water on a hot stone. The worst effect of it is the double-R producing mountains. You give your opponent an insane amount of mana too (Blood Moon). LandStill will kill you for sure with an über-Degree and that match-up was always bad for me with DS.

Banefire: Seems to be the best choice of the 3, but you yourself do not have so much mana to make it really good under a moon. Maybe in the SB, or play 2 copies instead of Akroma/other random stuff.

[Tom709]

Just Ideas.
Grafted Skullcap; With the mana excell you can cast 2+ cards a turn more than you think. Play a land, cast a critter. Drop a morph, unmorph. With Gauntlets you can get to 10 + mana. The +1/+1 abilitiy becomes valid when your beating with 2/2's. Often times your fat gets delt with and your left swinging with SSG and Magus. The giving your opponents mana part is a problem....
I am running, 4x Skullcap, 3x Gauntlets, and 3x Banefire. I've only tested on workstation(and yes I know what that means) but I like what I'm seeing so far. Give it a try.

[zabuza]

Now i´m testing lightning axe. I know chalices at 1 destroy this card, but i think this card belongs to this deck. Is a tarmo-removal that help us to gain hellbent. Is instant, is red, and deals 5 damage (usually enough to kill goyfs).

The only problem is that if you have a chalice at 1 (happens very often) you´ll be unable to play it. Because of that i´m playing now a coupke of shusers to pass through counterbalance and chalices.

what do you think about?

[Mantis]

Relic of Progenitus kills Tarmogoyfs too. And hits Nimble Mongoose. And doesn't 2 for you 1 you. But still, it's 1 CMC makes it unplayable in this deck.

[Charlatan]

People keep talking about creature removal in DS, and ignore Mink's SB.

We all know that there isn't a good red removal in Magic, our "best" option for this is Aftershock.

But if you look at Mink's SB, we will find 2-3 threaten.
Don't you think that this card could be used as a "removal"?

Think:
* your oponnent cast stifle+nought, so a succeceful threaten is gg.
* threaten on a goyf, on a tombstalker or anything like that. Even for only one turn, it is devastating for this deck that makes pain.

Could we see this card as a virtual removal? I think that this card can be handy.

Am I wrong?

Ty

[Hopo]

I've so far been happy with Spitebellows. Threaten is also an option, people have toyed with it in past. It still has it's problems, mainly the thing that they get their goyf back and it keeps on being a problem.

[Tacosnape]

Threaten is narrow, Threaten is awful.

Powder Keg's the much more versatile choice if you want to run it. It deals with Noughts, Goyfs, and also is much more useful against decks like Goblins and Merfolk.

[Dirtyoldguy366]

Since we're discussing sideboard cards i'll share my tech. Recently got 4th in a rather small tourney that was fully saturated with thresh dreadstill landstill and the newest contender... Progenitus... there were 2 lists with natural order -> progenitus plans. One was in a thresh skeleton and the other was in a survival of the fittest skeleton. I played the Survival Progenitus guy twice and both matches i was able to play Anarchy to destroy his progenitus. Still lost to goyfs though.

Also ripped on a landstill player who had moats, humility and wrath. I lost game 1 to a moat. Brought in my 2 copies of anarchy from the board managed to blow up his circle of protection: red and then drop a chalice at 4.

Anarchy is also very useful against elspeth and oblivion rings so if you see a lot of this kind of stuff try it out.

Any thoughts on other ways to deal with progenitus decks? The decks (especially the survival build i saw) seem to run more basics than i'm comfortable with plus they play birds of paradise which is very annoying and skirts our moon strategy.

[Tacosnape]

Anarchy's a metagame call. I've tinkered around with it before. I never seem to play enough white to worry about it. That said, it does kill Progenitus.

My strategy to Progenitus is the same as my strategy to Tarmogoyf. Outrace it. Use Chalice, Trinisphere, or even Pyroclasm to get a head start.

If Progenitus hits play and he's swinging, you get basically one retaliation move before you're dead. So you have to be as explosive as possible and make this one opportunity count. If a Progenitus comes down late and has to defend, Slogger has reach, and Pit Dragon can fly. Grafted Wargear actually helps here, also.

That said, Anarchy's a pretty decent solution. Arena of the Ancients is funnier, but Anarchy works if the metagame's right.

[Joe_C]

People keep talking about creature removal in DS, and ignore Mink's SB.

We all know that there isn't a good red removal in Magic, our "best" option for this is Aftershock.

But if you look at Mink's SB, we will find 2-3 threaten.
Don't you think that this card could be used as a "removal"?

Think:
* your oponnent cast stifle+nought, so a succeceful threaten is gg.
* threaten on a goyf, on a tombstalker or anything like that. Even for only one turn, it is devastating for this deck that makes pain.

Could we see this card as a virtual removal? I think that this card can be handy.

Am I wrong?

Ty

You do realize that threaten wasnt in his sideboard after the trials. Also, I wouldnt take too mcuh of what Mink says about magic or this deck as gold. Someone who thinks Pithing Needle stops LED shouldnt give advice on decks

[0dysseus]

You do realize that threaten wasnt in his sideboard after the trials. Also, I wouldnt take too mcuh of what Mink says about magic or this deck as gold. Someone who thinks Pithing Needle stops LED shouldnt give advice on decks

True, Threaten was left behind finally. Read Mink's report. And Joe..everybody can make a mistake man..that's no reason for not writing here with a proper justification for each piece of advice, even if that proves quite wrong in the end. And everyone who reads something shouldn't take it as the absolute truth, even if written by the best. 0 doubts + 0 mistakes = 0 progress:)

By the way, Mink, SoFI takes 3 to cast and 2 to equip (not 3 again).

Any latest testing and feedback concerning Goblin Assault?

[Charlatan]

Excuse-me, but where can i find mink's report?

[Esper3k]

Excuse-me, but where can i find mink's report?

It's over here in the Tournament Reports section:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13357

[idraleo]

I' ve spent some test on this decklist, but i' ve never had the chance to play it in real tournaments. That sounds bad, but it was a metagame choice, and most of the times i' ve preferred some other decks. Btw, the decklist looks a little different from other posted before, and even if it isn' t THE decklist it could probably give some good point of discussion. Maybe Coal Stoker could be more interesting here, but i rarely found situoations were i couldn' t cast Demigods, and most of the time i was simply screwed and not color screwed; 7 or 8 Moon effect maindeck allows us to play Demigod most of the times, and i' ve decided to run Siege because of Goblin Assault. Assault too is a decent card, provides a great number of attackers, is a great call against Standstill, and a powerhouse to have an out from a Smockestack too.

// Lands
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors
10 [CS] Snow-Covered Mountain

// Creatures
4 [SHM] Demigod of Revenge
4 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
2 [DIS] Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
4 [PLC] Sulfur Elemental
2 [10E] Siege-Gang Commander

// Spells
4 [MR] Seething Song
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
3 [9E] Blood Moon
4 [ALA] Goblin Assault
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 3 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 2 [TE] Boil
SB: 3 [AL] Pyrokinesis

[Esper3k]

I saw this idea on the Elephant/Natural Stompy thread - but what about Rosheen Meanderer?

She could be useful with Chalices, Sigils, and Bane/Demonfire?

[Deathcloud9]

Truth be told I'm not perfect. I'm trying to give some good input though, which is why I tried to go over a lot of ground with the tournament report. I love the deck- which shows that even if you're not the perfect player you can still do well with the deck. I especially wanted to give back to this thread, considering this is where the Maulers came from.

As far as the deck goes however, there are some good directions for the deck to go-

The main deck seems pretty solid. I wouldn't want to try to change it by adding colors- like with Demigod, etc. The same problems for Banefire/Demonfire exist too, as though you often get to 5 mana quickly, I'm often left without more than 3 or 4 lands by the end game. Keeping it simple seems to work best for this archetype.

Goblin Assault seems to be pretty interesting as far as the deck goes, and could probably go with an equipment strategy (especially in certain matchups that use Wrath effects/Swords to Plowshares to kill your fatties).

As far as SoFI goes, I believe the idea still remains the same- another 5 mana to cast and equip can sometimes ruin your tempo.

Anarchy does seem like a great SB card as well.

Pithing Needle is still great obviously, even if it can't hit a LED, lol.

[Tacosnape]

Siege-Gang >> Demigod of Uncastability, and I've actually tinkered around with the Siegester a few times, but is there any reason on God's Green Earth that list doesn't run Arc-Slogger?

[Charlatan]

You do realize that threaten wasnt in his sideboard after the trials. Also, I wouldnt take too mcuh of what Mink says about magic or this deck as gold. Someone who thinks Pithing Needle stops LED shouldnt give advice on decks

Mink's report is great, and believe i'm a not a brown nose, i even know where he lives...

His report is a great article about this deck, even if needle doesn't hit LED or anything like that...

I think that all cards that he used as SB have a meta call or to handle with weaknes from tyhe deck...

[idraleo]

Siege-Gang >> Demigod of Uncastability, and I've actually tinkered around with the Siegester a few times, but is there any reason on God's Green Earth that list doesn't run Arc-Slogger?


As i sayed, i' d rather go on Siege-gang rather then Slogger because of Assault synergies. Slogger is certainly a powerful card, but consider that i' m running 4 Demigods, and i want keep a maximum number of 5cc slots to 6. However, each time i' ve played Demigod it have been castable and efficient, especially against Landstill, Rock based decks that runs Pernicious, and MUC variants. If i get screwed to play Demigod, then i will be screwed to play Siege or Slogger too, so the few games where we' ll be unable to cast it will be some rare games where we don' t saw any Moon effect, or Seething, or we'll get completely screwed, probably with 1-2 red mana and some colorless land. Btw, Slogger is always one of the best card to play, i' ve simply run something different, and tests was positive.

[nix]

isnt demigod hard to cast?

[Tacosnape]

or we'll get completely screwed, probably with 1-2 red mana and some colorless land.

That's not "completely screwed" for builds that are smart enough not to run Siege-Gang and Demigod. That's "Being able to cast everything in my deck." That's the difference between builds that run the correct threats and ones that don't.

This isn't extended. We don't run Rite of Flame and Desperate Ritual. We aren't All-In Red. And Force of Will exists in this format, so trying to be anything close to that is a horrible plan. Demigod says byebye.

[Raptor]

As i sayed, i' d rather go on Siege-gang rather then Slogger because of Assault synergies. Slogger is certainly a powerful card, but consider that i' m running 4 Demigods, and i want keep a maximum number of 5cc slots to 6. However, each time i' ve played Demigod it have been castable and efficient, especially against Landstill, Rock based decks that runs Pernicious, and MUC variants. If i get screwed to play Demigod, then i will be screwed to play Siege or Slogger too, so the few games where we' ll be unable to cast it will be some rare games where we don' t saw any Moon effect, or Seething, or we'll get completely screwed, probably with 1-2 red mana and some colorless land. Btw, Slogger is always one of the best card to play, i' ve simply run something different, and tests was positive.

The problem with Siege-Gang is that is it only a 2/2, which is hard to put lots pressure on opponent with attacking. If there is a tarmo on the board, Siege Gang would be a lot less efficient then Slogger, because you will need to wreck the tarmo (Often 4/5 or 5/6), and it will cost you three tokens, and there will only be a 2/2 on board instead of a 4/5. Not to mention that Siege Gang ability cost 2 mana instead of one.
I find slogger really more versatile, especially that you can kill tarmo, and still do like ~4 damage to the player with it.
Although Siege Gang might be better in late game situation, you don't want to go end game anyway ;p
Also, if you run Demigod and Siege Gang, the two of them might be hard to cast expecially in a format with Sinkhole, or if you don't find your Seething song.
By the way, shouldn't you just run 1 Akroma versus landstill for a Wincon? (Can't be countered or sworded, can't be defended by elspeth's tokens..)

[Charlatan]

One question:

Isn't firespout better then pyroclasm?

Why not? (if you think that "No" :tongue: )

[Raptor]

One question:

Isn't firespout better then pyroclasm?

Why not? (if you think that "No" :tongue: )

Personally, I like pyroclasm better.

The extra damage of firespout will most likely kill your rider, and will kill your Rakdos pit (except if you make him flying, but it would cost you 3 red mana, which is sometimes really hard to get )

Pyroclasm kills Sower of temptation.

It cost one more mana. And you don't need the 1 extra damage versus deck with lot of creatures most of the time.. (Except if you play agaisnt merfolk and there is two Reejerey or lord of atlantis)

[idraleo]

And Force of Will exists in this format, so trying to be anything close to that is a horrible plan


One of the best side of Demigod is that if you' ll saw it in multiple copyes, it owns Force of Will. Force of Will works on each other threat or card in the deck, so saying that Demigod is couterable by Force is pointless. Saying that we can' t play it in this format because that' s not an extended deck is pointless too: that was the same when someone tryed first to play Sower in Legacy, and everybody laught at it. I' ve played several games with this decklist, and obv sometimes i lost games with an uncastable Demigod in hand, sure, but i think that you lost many games with some uncastable Arc-Slogger in hand too :tongue:
I found that with 4 Seething, 4 Moxes, 4 SSG, and 7 maindeck Moon effect, the RRRRR in Demigod manacost is not a problem as it could appear by a first sight. Give it a chance in your playtests, i'm not assuming that it is the solution or the best card ever printed for this deck, but that it is a good threat and a playable card, and it gives the best against counter-based decks and deck that runs Pernicious, WoG and other board sweepers.

[Kuma]

One of the best side of Demigod is that if you' ll saw it in multiple copyes, it owns Force of Will. Force of Will works on each other threat or card in the deck, so saying that Demigod is couterable by Force is pointless.

The odds of us seeing Demigod in mulitples and having the RRRRR to cast them both is incredibly low. How do you not realize this? Do I have to crunch numbers for you?

Force of Will actually does a pretty good job of stopping Demigod. A smart player will let you play your Demigod, let the trigger resolve and then Force the Demigod. If you have no Demigods in the yard, Force of Will will stop Demigod cold. We have one way to put Demigods in the yard --- Gathan Raiders. Do the words 'danger of cool things' mean anything to you?

If you're running Demigod because of its resiliance against countermagic, (I can't think of why else you'd want to run a nearly uncastable card) it's relevant that Force of Will will shut it down nearly every time you cast it. It would be different if we ran something like Intuition, but we don't.

The bottom line is that we need a Seething Song or a combination of cards resembling Rube Goldberg contraption to cast it. That's why it's bad.


Saying that we can' t play it in this format because that' s not an extended deck is pointless too: that was the same when someone tryed first to play Sower in Legacy, and everybody laught at it.

So because some people were wrong about Sower of Temptation, we're wrong about Demigod?


I' ve played several games with this decklist, and obv sometimes i lost games with an uncastable Demigod in hand, sure, but i think that you lost many games with some uncastable Arc-Slogger in hand too :tongue:

Yeah, I've lost games to an uncastable Slogger. How does replacing Arc-Slogger with an even harder to cast card improve the situation?


Give it a chance in your playtests, i'm not assuming that it is the solution or the best card ever printed for this deck, but that it is a good threat and a playable card, and it gives the best against counter-based decks and deck that runs Pernicious, WoG and other board sweepers.

Tell you what: I'll playtest Demigod when you form a coherent arguement for why it's better than any four cards from the standard list, if you crunch some numbers and show that it's not too hard to get RRRRR, and/or demonstrate how Demigod kills your opponent faster than an Arc-Slogger when cast early.

I'd rather have Pithing Needles than Demigods against Pernicious Deed, because I can reliably cast Pithing Needle. And nobody plays Wrath of God anymore.

[mercc]

I like the idea of demigod, new ideas.
What rock player doesn't expect needle? They will have some sort of artifact hate vs. it as vs. all our other cards. Cards like demigod can make for a surprise.

This deck is in bad need of new ideas or it will be Tier 1.5 at best.. forever..

[mujadaddy]

This deck is in bad need of new ideas or it will be Tier 1.5 at best.. forever..Needing :r::r::r::r::r: kinda goes way beyond the "new ideas" label, though, doesn't it?

[mercc]

Needing :r::r::r::r::r: kinda goes way beyond the "new ideas" label, though, doesn't it?

I don't know what to say..

[mujadaddy]

I don't know what to say..
Read the thread. This deck is Chalice/Tomb/Red, not Red Aggro.

[mercc]

Wow, merfolk has become popular in my area!

Best SB against it?
Clasm? Flametongue? Pyroblast? Keg? Pyrokinesis?

[Esper3k]

Wow, merfolk has become popular in my area!

Best SB against it?
Clasm? Flametongue? Pyroblast? Keg? Pyrokinesis?

Boil the fishmen? :)

[mercc]

Boil the fishmen? :)

But boil comes late and they have lots of manlands, with vial in play you will lose.

[Carabas]

Would Spinal Villain be useful against merfolk? It's going to be taking out 1 guy a turn for 0 mana. With less and less stifle being played in merfolk, I think it's something to consider. Bit of a shame it can't hit mutavault, though. 1 Power is only ok though, so you might consider Slingshot Goblin instead.

[Esper3k]

But boil comes late and they have lots of manlands, with vial in play you will lose.

I know - I'm just amused by the thought of Boiling Merfolk :)

Pyroclasm wouldn't be too terrible, but if they have 2 Lords out, it's dead. Kinesis is ok too since many of them are 1 toughness. Even with a Lord out, you can always do 2 to the Lord, then 1 apiece to two others and get a 3 for 2.

Really, your Chalices and Trinispheres I think would work well since that deck tends to be fairly low costed anyways.

[mercc]

I don't believe chalice and trinisphere will "lock them out of the game".

My Turn 1: Trinisphere
His turn 1: Island

My turn 2: Taurean mauler
His turn 2: Mishra's factory

:confused:

Then it just keept going. He played mutavault then. And then got to play essential dudes for 3 mana. Reejerey and Thrasher cost 3 anyways.

Chalice for 1 will only lock out vial and cursecather. I know its good, but it's not backbreaking. He will pitch cathers to FoW then and then played dudes for 2 and 3 mana.

I want a good SB card, like flametongue, since i believe going into an attrition war instead of stax-locking them which will not happen.

[Charlatan]

A combination of pyroclasm and pyrokenesis make the cut...

and if u don't run jitte in your MD, bring it on!

[TimeTwister]

Ahoi,

perhaps Martyr of Ashes could be an option ... come down early, could be equiped and has a variable baord cleaning damage option ... ;)


salute
TimeTwister

[mercc]

my first thought about martyr was wow!
but i was hoping that the SB-card for merfolk would be good for slivers as well.

powder keg is pretty universal and good vs. both. but i think it is kinda slow, and i've had bad experience with merfolks playing stifle :/

[Kuma]

Martyr of Ashes is horrible. It trips over Chalice, costs 2R total to play and use, requires red cards in your hand in a deck that wants to dump its hand, and can be Stifled.

Run Pyroclasm instead. You'll probably never activate Martyr for more than two damage anyway.

A sideboard of four Pyroclasm and four Pyrokinesis kicks Goblins' teeth in and should do the same thing to Merfolk. It's also great versus the random jank that gives us trouble.

Boil is another option if your metagame is really blue heavy, but it's not your best option against Merfolk.

Trinisphere is garbage against Merfolk. They run Aether Vial, plenty of lands, manlands, and Wasteland. Should they not have any of those cards they can Force or Daze it.

You: Turn one Ancient Tomb, SSG, Trinisphere.
Them: Wasteland
You: @#%^!#

[mercc]

but pitching a card for pyrokinesis when they can just tap U and counter it with hydroblast seems no good.

[Kuma]

but pitching a card for pyrokinesis when they can just tap U and counter it with hydroblast seems no good.

You might get two-for-one'd. Or you might wipe their board and kill them. Let me put it this way. If you resolve a Pyrokinesis with your own creatures on the board, you will almost certainly win. If you don't, you might lose. They aren't always going to have the blue blast with the mana to play it, and sometimes you'll have Chalice at one to protect it.

You act like a -1 card advantage in Dragon Stompy is the end of the world. Maybe we should cut Seething Song, Gathan Raiders, and Chrome Mox too --- they're all -1 card advantage.

[Tacosnape]

@SB for Merfolk-Slaying = any combination of Pyroclasm, Pyrokinesis, Powder Keg, and Flametongue Kavu.

Clasm is Wrath as long as they don't have dual pumpers. Powder Keg is great in this match both against their threats and against their Vials. You can often get 2 for 1's off Keg.

Other than that? Just resolve a Slogger, for god's sake. Slogger d. Merfolk.

@Spinal Villain: Cute, but there aren't enough targets in the game and it doesn't do enough. And if you want a card that owns blue, you're running Boil.

@Mercc's Trinisphere vs. Merfolk scenario: And if you follow with Turn 3 Magus or turn 3 Blood Moon, you're still in dominant position. Trinisphere doesn't always shut out Merfolk, but it can definitely help, especially given that they're land light and don't always hit three land by their third turn.

@Martyr of Ashes: Ew. No.

@Firespout: I went through this same question, actually. I love Firespout. Love it love it love it. I run it over Pyroclasm in Survival's sideboard due to the awesome Birds of Paradise synergy. But here? It's a bad call. Unhellbent Raiders and Dragon both have toughness 3. There aren't enough other threats in the format with an exact toughness of 3 to make this worthwhile. And you don't have the green to make this hit flyers.



One of the best side of Demigod is that if you' ll saw it in multiple copyes, it owns Force of Will.

If you see Demigod in multiple copies, it blows against Force of Will, because you won't cast it in multiple copies. You need a Seething Song or a Moon and five mana sources for each one, in a deck that has no draw. It isn't happening. And the worst side is that if you see Demigod in multiple copies, you lose Hellbent.

[ScatmanX]

I'm sorry, but why not Firespout over pyroclasm? Have I missed something here?

[Zork]

Spout kills your own unbent raiders and your Pit Dragons. Clasm does not.

[Charlatan]

I'm just brainstorming....

How about Rolling Thunder?

[Phantom]

I wouldn't recommend getting too cute with that slot. You want to cast your sweeper against decks that are often playing some combination of Wasteland and Port. I've often had to clasm Goblins with nothing but a mountain and a SSG pitch. This is why it's tempting to just run Pyrokenesis in the board, though I'm fairly sure that's the wrong call.

[Tacosnape]

I wouldn't recommend getting too cute with that slot. You want to cast your sweeper against decks that are often playing some combination of Wasteland and Port. I've often had to clasm Goblins with nothing but a mountain and a SSG pitch. This is why it's tempting to just run Pyrokenesis in the board, though I'm fairly sure that's the wrong call.

For what it's worth, that's not why I ran/run Pyrokinesis, though I agree with your assessment that Pyroclasm's probably the best sweeper compared to anything else. It's certainly the cream of the crop against Goblins.

Pyrokinesis I ran as a combination sweeper and anti-combo piece. It can randomly tag stuff against Painter, Ceph Breakfast, Elf combo, and other random little creature-based combo decks that pop up from time to time. It did this better than Pyroclasm, as I could still be dropping my threats and disruption, increasing my clock, etc. Pyrokinesis also facilitates Hellbent, and Pyrokinesis is free, leaving your mana open to commit to a purely aggressive strategy. Pyroclasm also doesn't kill your Magus of the Moons, which actually became relevant when tribal decks besides Goblins started existing. What I also like about Pyrokinesis is that on games where you're on the draw and Trinisphere can sometimes just blow, Pyrokinesis isn't bad just to bring in for tempo.

I'm less sure than you that it's the wrong call, and I leave both Pyroclasms and Pyrokineses in my deckbox to shift it at a whim. That said, it's really hard to go too wrong with Pyroclasm.

[idraleo]

why not run Volcanic Fallout? It performs very well against dredge and goblins

[NecroYawgmoth]

...because of the casting cost

when the casting cost would be something like 2R it would be much better for Dragon Stompy

[Goomba Team]

why not run Volcanic Fallout? It performs very well against dredge and goblins

In an meta with ichorid and blue based aggro decks (merfolk & fae) can it replace pyroclasm?

I think its advantages (instant speed and incounterable) make it better option than pyroclasm despite its casting cost.

[Deathcloud9]

On the question of board sweepers, it's really about what you're trying to pinpoint with your removal.

Pyroclasm- one of the most efficient red sweepers available. And, yes, being 1 red mana does matter for this deck. The fact that you don't have to pitch a card does help as well, because you most often are able to get hellbent in most cases. Also, aside from not killing your dragon and raiders, being able to kill birds mattered in the survival matchup.

Pyrokinesis- another great spell. But for different reasons. That being of tempo, with the capability to eat an early goyf. It has anti-synergy with Trinisphere, but I'd only play these if Trinisphere's were taken out during sideboarding. Lets your Magus live.

Powder Keg- Our "instant" answer. It deals with those dredge tokens (although with Trinisphere main, this matchup is already decent), man-lands, and of course, tarmogoyf.

Other, less efficient "answers" that don't really pinpoint the problem that you're trying to deal with:

Firespout?- Tacosnape already answered this, but consider that against merfolk they also have cursecatcher. 1 Mana really does matter.

Volcanic Fallout- Waiting for the extra "r" will just lose you the game. Oftentimes, you'll only be on 2 mana turn 1 as well.



Things that stick out in my mind as better possible "answers" against merfolk:

Umezawa's Jitte
Pithing Needle- Hits Vial, Man-Lands.
Pyroclasm
Pyrokinesis
Pyroblast/REB- efficient removal can be a possible answer as well.

[Dembones]

Hi, first post here, ran out of places to play vintage in the Detroit area, so I'm looking to get into legacy, considering it's the next best thing : )

A few pages ago I saw Threaten being considered, but then dismissed. I'm curious if anyone has thought to play Grab the Reigns, or is the mana cost to entwine too much for this deck. (I've yet to put this deck together and see what it plays like, so forgive my ignorance.)

Just throwing it out there.

[rufus]

A few pages ago I saw Threaten being considered, but then dismissed. I'm curious if anyone has thought to play Grab the Reigns, or is the mana cost to entwine too much for this deck. (I've yet to put this deck together and see what it plays like, so forgive my ignorance.)

The basic concept of the deck is to play lots of 'must answer' cards. There's no real need for the opponent to answer Grab the Reins unless you're already winning. Terrible card for this deck.

[Dembones]

The basic concept of the deck is to play lots of 'must answer' cards. There's no real need for the opponent to answer Grab the Reins unless you're already winning. Terrible card for this deck.

I was looking at Grab the Reins not as something your opponent has to answer, but as an answer for you to use against things like goyf or whatever you might have trouble with, if anything.

Again, I'm not very familiar with the deck or what is played in the format, I'm just curious.

[Joe_C]

Pithing Needle- Hits Vial, Man-Lands, and tap/untap effects


Pithing needle does not stop Merrow.

My board:

3 Boil
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Powder Keg
3 Pyroclasm
2 Pithing Needle(the really only reason this is in the board at all is for survival and engineered explosives are the most common thing to face. chalice @1 does best against everything else except the ever growing in popularity of veldaken shackles)
3 Pyrokinesis

[0dysseus]

Pithing Needles stop Pernicious Deeds too, and deal with V.Shackles efficiently.

Can I ask if not running graveyard hate isn't so dangerous anymore? Is it that no one finds Tormod's Crypt useful nowadays, or that other things are a lot more important? Has anyone tried Relic of Progenitus guys?

[Joe_C]

Pithing Needles stop Pernicious Deeds too, and deal with V.Shackles efficiently.

Can I ask if not running graveyard hate isn't so dangerous anymore? Is it that no one finds Tormod's Crypt useful nowadays, or that other things are a lot more important? Has anyone tried Relic of Progenitus guys?

Well, trinisphere, chalice, and moon effects are enough to beat ichorid quite readily. The loss of 2 or so slots to devote to the ichorid matchup are not worth it since there are other cards we already run for other matchups like pryoclasm and powder keg that work amazingly against them as well... Running crypt/relic is just to narrow

[Deathcloud9]

Agreed w/ Joe- there doesn't seem reason enough to include graveyard hate, as Moon effects tend to hurt loam, and Trinisphere slows down Ichorid.

What's your current MD look like Joe? How much have you liked Boil? It seems best against U/w.

Has anyone tested with goblin assault yet?

*face palms self* on merrow- needs to reread cards before posting. I still feel like hitting man-lands/aether vial with needle is decent against merfolk.

[0dysseus]

I totally agree with you guys about Ichorid. But as for Aggro-Loam..if it's not RGW but RG (meaning it does not play with Knight of the Reliquary), Moons are not so effective. Even if they play with Knight or Confidant they have 4 Mox Diamonds in, Fetchlands and sometimes basics too. Terravore and Countryside Crusher are 3cc and so Trinisphere isn't that good, and Chalice also because it may target Tarmogoyf and Life from the Loam (if we set it at 2 ASAP), but not the 3cc creatures. And Pithing Needle do not stop LftLoam's Dredge because it is just a replacement effect not an ability, right? Without graveyard hate their Lhurgoyfs grow a lot. I wanted to test An-Zerrin Ruins SB against Aggro-Loam naming "Llurgoyf" but I never had the chance. I don't know, maybe I'm presenting only the negatives of this matchup.
Graveyard destruction is good against cool random stuff too -and Tarmogoyfs in general!
What are your thoughts about Loam? Note that Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progenitus can cooperate with Chalice@2 against Aggro-Loam.

[Joe_C]

I totally agree with you guys about Ichorid. But as for Aggro-Loam..if it's not RGW but RG (meaning it does not play with Knight of the Reliquary), Moons are not so effective. Even if they play with Knight or Confidant they have 4 Mox Diamonds in, Fetchlands and sometimes basics too. Terravore and Countryside Crusher are 3cc and so Trinisphere isn't that good, and Chalice also because it may target Tarmogoyf and Life from the Loam (if we set it at 2 ASAP), but not the 3cc creatures. And Pithing Needle do not stop LftLoam's Dredge because it is just a replacement effect not an ability, right? Without graveyard hate their Lhurgoyfs grow a lot. I wanted to test An-Zerrin Ruins SB against Aggro-Loam naming "Llurgoyf" but I never had the chance. I don't know, maybe I'm presenting only the negatives of this matchup.
Graveyard destruction is good against cool random stuff too -and Tarmogoyfs in general!
What are your thoughts about Loam? Note that Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progenitus can cooperate with Chalice@2 against Aggro-Loam.

When I use needles against loam decks I name their cycling lands... The matchup is definitely in their favor. Devastating dreams sucks ass for us, chalice at 2 is fanstastic, and pyrokinesis is really good in this matchup, so is powder keg. I would suggest trying to needle their cycling lands next time you play against loam, watch their jaw drop.:laugh:

[NecroYawgmoth]

my problem with Dragon Stompy is as follows:

I want to run 1 or maybe 2 RAkroma (just don't ask ^^), but don't know what to cut...


4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Mountain

4 Arc-Slogger
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Taurean Mauler

2 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
4 Trinisphere
4 Seething Song

SB

4 Pithing Needle
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Boil
2 Blood Moon
2 Pyrokinesis

...looks pretty solid, or?

YawG

[Zach Tartell]

Don't cut anything. If you can't make a good case for Akroma (who has been discussed and found farily sub-standard) then just don't play her.

I'd suggest you look into the Chicago top 8 list if you're looking for some good (although meta-neutral) Dragon Stompy. And don't spend your time worrying about terrible cards.

[Wereodile]

One of my friends has suggested dropping the Seething songs and Sloggers, for land destruction ie. Stone Rain. The first turn this deck can churn out are still enough to trip up most decks and we feel it will cut down on mulligans.

Any Thoughts? we are going to do some testing later this week with it and hopefully we can let you gusy know more.

[Joe_C]

One of my friends has suggested dropping the Seething songs and Sloggers, for land destruction ie. Stone Rain. The first turn this deck can churn out are still enough to trip up most decks and we feel it will cut down on mulligans.

Any Thoughts? we are going to do some testing later this week with it and hopefully we can let you gusy know more.

Read through this thread and you will see this mentioned many times. The thought of stone rain does not bode well here

[Dark_Cynic87]

TRINISPHERE >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Stone Rain.

Trinisphere does thee job MUCH better at Tempo denial than Stone Rain. If you are needing something for the said purpose, go Trinisphere.

Pce,

--DC

[JMG021283]

Random thoughts on Rolling Earthquake? :P I dont think it would be a bad option.

[Dark_Cynic87]

It was used by the fellow at GenCon 2008 who made Top 8 with a DS build. Doesn't sound like a horrible idea. He did well.

Pce,

--DC

[leander?]

Why isn't Ankh of Mishra Played in DS?

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Why isn't Ankh of Mishra Played in DS?

Because you kill yourself with ancient tomb + Ankh of Mishra, and Ankh is a thread you couldnt equip. It is just to clunky.

[Wereodile]

So my bad on the Stone Rain Idea. A first turn 3sphere is proving to be brutal against, Staz, NLU and Combo.

Now as we were testing yesterday the pyroclasm vs. Firespout discussion came up. Firespout fits the curve better but there's the whole thing of it killing our Magus and Dragon.

Does anyone think it's worth the resources to "jump" the dragon and firespout to get that 3rd point of damage? What creatures does spout hit that clasm can't besides mongoose??

I currently have the clasms in in the board and the only issue is it can sometimes be hard to cast off of a 2/land and mox/mountain.

[Dark_Cynic87]

You could just use an Earthquake or Rolling Earthquake. It's two damage for 3 mana. Rolling Earthquake is the best as it hits everything other than Horsemanship creatures (read: everything). One more thing about Earthquake effects: They can be used as a burn spell to finish an opponent off, just try not to kill yourself in the process.

Pce,

--DC

[Wereodile]

You could just use an Earthquake or Rolling Earthquake. It's two damage for 3 mana. Rolling Earthquake is the best as it hits everything other than Horsemanship creatures (read: everything). One more thing about Earthquake effects: They can be used as a burn spell to finish an opponent off, just try not to kill yourself in the process.

Pce,

--DC

Thanks for the info. I have seen Earthquake mentioned before and I think I may lean that way as it's easier to cast and gives me reach (beyond Slogger) Has anyone had issues with tapping tombs for this with no moon effects out? Worst case I can run 2x Clasm and 1x Quake

Rolling Earthquake on the other hand would put a hurting on my wallet so I'll stick with regular old quake.

[hungryLIKEALION]

I've been using Steam Blast instead of pyroclasm, to positive results.

[Wereodile]

I've been using Steam Blast instead of pyroclasm, to positive results.

It easier to cast without a moon out, the only downside is tapping a tomb taking 2 to turn around and take another 2, good suggestion.

[danpo]

Dragon Stompy won a 474-man event in France called the Bazaar de Moxen.

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=25933

The build is fairly boilerplate, except for one thing: he dropped 4x Arc-Slogger to fit in 4x Taurean Mauler. I realize this is just one list, but an event that big has to be of scientific merit, right?

I speculate that the 3x maindeck Jitte are a lot more important in the absence of Slogger. It's worth noting that there are no Merfolk or Goblins in the top 16.

Thoughts?

Also, questions about the sideboard:
1) How does Shattering Spree interact with Trinisphere and Chalice set at 1? What happens if I cast it paying 2R? What about RRR?
2) With Trinisphere down, to cast Pyrokinesis via the alternative cost, I still have to pay 3, yes?
3) Doesn't it piss you guys off to have REB/Pyroblast in your hand and Chalice set at 1? Just thinking about it makes me want to cast Boil.

Cheers.

[Julian23]

Trinisphere and Chalice at 1 in play:
Spree cast for 2R (because of Trinisphere) -> Chalice counters it

502.52a - Replicate is a keyword that represents two abilities. The first is a static ability that functions while the spell is on the stack. The second is a triggered ability that functions while the spell is on the stack. "Replicate [cost]" means "As an additional cost to play this spell, you may pay [cost] any number of times" and "When you play this spell, if a replicate cost was paid for it, copy it for each time its replicate cost was paid. If the spell has any targets, you may choose new targets for any number of the copies." Paying a spell's replicate cost follows the rules for paying additional costs in Rule 409.1b and Rule 409.1f through Rule 409.1h. [Guildpact FAQ 2005/12/22]

As replicate is an additional cost which is paid before Trinisphere even considers increasing your cost Trinisphere doesn't do anything once you create at least 2 copies. Even though the original Spree will be countered by chalice the copies are not "played" and therefor do not trigger Chalice.

[Kuma]

Dragon Stompy won a 474-man event in France called the Bazaar de Moxen.

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=25933

The build is fairly boilerplate, except for one thing: he dropped 4x Arc-Slogger to fit in 4x Taurean Mauler. I realize this is just one list, but an event that big has to be of scientific merit, right?

All this tells us is that Dragon Stompy is capable of doing well in a large event. We've known that for years. Just because a deck placed high in a large tournament doesn't mean its card choices are ideal. That said, there is zero justification for cutting the best creature in the deck for Taurean Mauler. None.


Also, questions about the sideboard:
1) How does Shattering Spree interact with Trinisphere and Chalice set at 1? What happens if I cast it paying 2R? What about RRR?
2) With Trinisphere down, to cast Pyrokinesis via the alternative cost, I still have to pay 3, yes?
3) Doesn't it piss you guys off to have REB/Pyroblast in your hand and Chalice set at 1? Just thinking about it makes me want to cast Boil.

1) Chalice at one will only counter the original Shattering Spree not the copies. To destroy a Chalice at one with Shattering Spree, you need to replicate at least once. If you play Shattering Spree with 2R and a Trinisphere out, you get to destroy one artifact. If you pay it with RRR when a Trinisphere is out you can choose whether to create zero, one, or two copies of the spell. You may target the same artifact with multiple copies. Paying for replicate satisfies Trinisphere's requirements.

2) Yes

3) That's why I don't run any red blasts in my list. The decks Chalice is strongest against are the same decks blasts are strongest against, and the two cards don't get along. I'd rather run Boil, but only if my metagame was loaded with blue decks.

[Wereodile]

I just played an event in Oshawa On at When Worlds Collide it was part of their Legacy for a Mox *blank* events this one was for an Emerald and theirs one coming up in July for a Pearl *plug* DStompy was great and turn one chalice @1 basically ruins the format. I remember most of what happened so here it is:

Round 1: Servants Stone I think?

Game 1, for the first few turns it looked like we were playing the same deck until he dropped a Grindstone and that was that. Game 2, I lay a first turn needle on Grindstone and he ends up grinding me out on turn 2 boo!

Round 2: Cephalid Breakfast

Game 1, I get a turn 1 CoV @1 and applied the beats before I saw what his deck was all about. Game 2, this one is drawn out due to the fact I can't find a threat to save my life my board was CoV @ 1,2 and Trinisphere and a Slogger staring down a goyf I top decked another slogger and won.

Round 3: Canadian Thresh

All I have to say about this round is it's a great matchup when you land an early Chalice or Trinisphere and not a good matchup when you all of a sudden forget to play the game of Magic a punt huge. I had him loced under a turn one Chalice, Trinisphere and Blood Moon and I let him bolt two of my Dragons. This Sloppy play resulted in his concession and he offered me the win but I decided to take the draw due to it being a F'up on my end as well.

Round 4: I can't remember anything about this round other then he wastelocked me both games and destroyed any permanents I manged to land.

That's where my memory falls right off. The deck was great (I was not)

Props:

-When Worlds Collide - always a great event worth the 2 hour drive.
- Chris and Ben for putting up with my s*it
- David Caplan for some crazy T4 action
-Picked up 2 more Tundras at a decent price

Slops:

-Me for punting huge
-The shops fridge broke so luke warm coke was the order of the day
-Sticking 25ish geeks all in a room together gets warm, uncomfortably warm

[mercc]

One of my friends has suggested dropping the Seething songs and Sloggers, for land destruction ie. Stone Rain. The first turn this deck can churn out are still enough to trip up most decks and we feel it will cut down on mulligans.

Any Thoughts? we are going to do some testing later this week with it and hopefully we can let you gusy know more.

I have dropped songs and slogger for more threats. Goblin Assault and Jitte's, and uping maulers to 4.
Assault haven't been testing very well. It's the best threat red has to offer which costs 2R. I personally dislike song very much as we only have our first 7 (quite often 6) to play with and mox and SSG is card-loss already. Topdecking song midgame is a pure disaster when you want threats.

[Kuma]

I have dropped songs and slogger for more threats.

If Arc-Slogger isn't a threat, what is it?


Goblin Assault and Jitte's, and uping maulers to 4.
Assault haven't been testing very well. It's the best threat red has to offer which costs 2R.

Goblin Assault is worse than Arc-Slogger?! It can't be! 1/1s are so much better than a three-turn clock. :rolleyes:

Taurean Mauler is a much better threat than Goblin Assault. Mauler forces your opponent to kill it or watch it get huge.

What are you trying to say? You upped Maulers to four while calling Goblin Assault the best 2R threat in red but said they aren't testing well?


I personally dislike song very much as we only have our first 7 (quite often 6) to play with and mox and SSG is card-loss already. Topdecking song midgame is a pure disaster when you want threats.

Hellbent good. Dropping Chalice + Threat/Trinisphere/Moon good. Turn one Slogger or Pit Dragon good.

Oh, and if you have a Rakdos Pit Dragon on the table, Seething Song is the best midgame topdeck you could ask for.

If you can't deal with the card disadvantage go play Landstill.

[jimirynk]

If you can't deal with the card disadvantage go play Landstill.


^^New hero.:laugh:

[Arsenal]

The build is fairly boilerplate, except for one thing: he dropped 4x Arc-Slogger to fit in 4x Taurean Mauler. I realize this is just one list, but an event that big has to be of scientific merit, right?

Many, many lists are running Arc-Slogger along with Mauler, you don't really need to choose either/or.

[Joe_C]

My current list:

11 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors

4 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Arc Slogger
3 Seething Song
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Taurean Mauler
2 Blood Moon
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void

SB:
3 Boil
3 Powder Keg
3 Pyroclasm
2 Pyrokenisis
2 Pithing Needle
2 Umezawa's Jitte

This is working well for me at the moment.

[Wereodile]

Here is the list I recently played, I was happy with the list other then a 3rd Jitte would have been nice as I didn't see them often enough imo. It's all quite standard:

//Creatures//

4x Rakdos Pit Dragon
4x Gathan Raiders
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Magus of the Moon
3x Arc Slogger
3x Tauren Mauler

//Spells//

4x Seething Song

//Enchantments//

2x Blood Moon

//Artifacts//

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Trinisphere
4x Chrome Mox
2x Jitte

//Land//

4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
10x Mountain

//Sideboard//

3x Pyroclasm
3x Boil
3x Shattering Spree
3x Pithing Needles
3x Powder Keg

I really didn't board that much throughout the day, basically needles and Spree's came in.

[Arsenal]

My current list:

I've dropped Jittes from the maindeck as well. They're great against aggro and random stuff, but against a low-threat density meta (8-10 creature Thresh lists, Dreadstill, etc) that Dragon Stompy will typically be played in, I think Jitte in the board is the right call.

[Esper3k]

Did you guys see the Dragon Stompy deck that won the Bazaar of Moxen tournament?

Dragon Stompy by Francesco dalla Via

Mainboard:

4 Blood Moon
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Seething Song
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Gathan Raiders
3 Trinisphere
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
10 Mountain
4 Taurean Mauler


Sideboard:

3 Powder Keg
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Shattering Spree
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Red Elemental Blast

Interesting cutting the Sloggers...

[Charlatan]

Interesting cutting the Sloggers...

He could'nt afford :P

just kidding

I don't see any reason to cut it...

It is the best threat in the whole deck...

and with mauler (a virtual meneace) a couple of removal starts to get no use...

Blood moon still good as 2 in MD and maybe 1 SB...

Congratz to the italian boy...

[0dysseus]

First of all, congratulations to Francesco! 1st place shows skill, no matter what. Even if I disagree with the decklist, and so I'll enter the debate:smile:

At some point in this thread someone wrote that 10 is a small number of games to play in order to test a deck vs. another deck, and I partially agree. Small no, but not big enough. Now in a tournament you play less games than that vs. each other deck. His list did undoubtedly a damn good job, but so have done many decklists with Slogger in the past, and this deck has a history to support your choices.

Don't get me wrong, I like innovation, and the guy had balls to try and pilot such a bold list that good!! But even when the best player in the galaxy plays, Magic will always be skill and luck. Francesco could have forseen his meta as well and probably he made the right choice. Again, I'm not trying to say that he got lucky to be 1st. 1st place shows far more than luck.. But luck is always a factor.

The question is: If he played again the same series of games 10, 100, 1000 times what would the results be? Test it and find out if you are so eager to cut Sloggers completely. Maybe if our new champion read this thread somehow he could give us a useful play report and then we could msw his opponents vs one of our friends. Of course his opponents would play their decks better probably. If a sourcer knows Francesco please let him know of our thread.

Lastly, don't forget that the 1st two choices that make DS successful and famous are Moons and Chalice. It is them that do all the dirty job most of the times in this format, even if some of our other choices are not that good. It could be them winning a large portion of that tournament as well.
And the cool pilot of course.

[hungryLIKEALION]

Sunday I played Dragon Stompy in a small Legacy tournament at my local comic shop. This is the list I played.

11x Mountain
4x City of Traitors
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Chrome Mox
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Rakdos Pit Dragon
4x Arc Slogger
4x Seething Song
4x Gathan Raiders
4x Trinisphere
4x Magus of the Moon
4x Chalice of the Void
2x Blood Moon
1x Banefire
2x Sulfur Elemental

SB--
1x Pyroblast
1x Red Elemental Blast
3x Boil
2x Jitte
2x Blood Moon
2x Sun Droplet
4x Ingot Chewer

It's pretty close to Mink's list, which I really liked, but I had to sub in Sulfur Elementals for Taurean Maulers because I couldn't get my hands on them. Thus, Sulfur Elementals went in since I like Flash, and I threw in a solo banefire.

Round one I played against Mono Green BerserkStompy. I lost the die roll and lost game 1 on turn two. I got game 2 with turn 1 trinisphere and then a bunch of crazy creatures, and game 3 with jitte on a gathan raiders on turn 2.

Round two I played against Eva Green and mulled to five both games, with no first turn plays in any of those six hands. naturally I lost.

Round three I played against It's The Fear and won game 1 with magus and chalice and trinisphere. Game 2 I had turn 1 blood moon, turn two chalice and thurn 3 sphere followed by big beasties.

Cut to top 4, I played against Ankh of Mishra. I won both games pretty handily by landing moons and chalices and spheres and beating down.

Finals I played against the Eva Green guy again and once again mulled to five both games with my 5 card hand in game 1 giving me turn 1 chalice but no second land. Game 2 was equally pathetic but with no turn one play.

Overall, the decklist played great, and other than the complete bull!@#$ mulligans against the eva green player, I loved it. I might be playing this deck at the end of the month in a tournament for a black lotus.

[Charlatan]

I might be playing this deck at the end of the month in a tournament for a black lotus.

With or with out mauler?

[hungryLIKEALION]

If I can get them, I'd probably go with the mauler.