[Discussion] Best Set [Archive]

Wallace

11-26-2007, 05:35 PM

So now that we, The Source community, have decided that Homelands is the worst expansion set, what’s the best? Which set do you think is the best expansion and why? Put you prejudice aside and really think about it, what set really stands out above the rest, which set contributed the most to all formats? Which set has stood the test of time or which newer set puts all the older sets to shame? Please pick an expansion set and not a base set.

ClearSkies

11-26-2007, 05:50 PM

Contribute to all format? Meaning they aren't banned right?

Onslaught because of Goblins. They are playable in Vintage, Legacy, and Extended right now. They may not be top tier anymore, but they are still powerful.

As for the other sets, I can only think of a few cards that pop out of that certain set at the moment. (Or the cards that stand out in that set are banned)

Bane of the Living

11-26-2007, 05:51 PM

Urzas expansion gave us all the really powerfull outlets for the fast mana already in existing. We got Tinker, Windfall, Academy, Bargain, Rector, Morphling, Grim Monolith and many more abusive cards. Memory Jar got an emergency ban before it was released.

Mirrodin came close to broken cards but saga takes the cake.

Im really not giving a Legacy baised opinion and I wasnt sure if I was suppose to.

For newer sets Im really impressed with Future Sight. It had tons of playables.

Volt

11-26-2007, 05:55 PM

Onslaught because of Goblins.

And even more importantly, the fetchlands. Onslaught gets my vote.

Saga and Mirrodin were the most broken, but due to bannings are not as relevant anymore.

ClearSkies

11-26-2007, 06:10 PM

And even more importantly, the fetchlands. Onslaught gets my vote.

Saga and Mirrodin were the most broken, but due to bannings are not as relevant anymore.

Oh yea, completely forgot about Fetchlands...

What card in Mirrodin was banned?

Skullclamp - Darksteel (Anywhere outside Vintage)
Aether Vial - Darksteel (Extended)
Trinisphere - Darksteel (Restricted in Vintage)

So... where are the Mirrodin banned cards?
(Or I am just missing some more obvious ones like the Fetchlands in Onslaught)

Silverdragon

11-26-2007, 06:11 PM

fetchlands

They fundamentally changed every format they are/were legal in. Ravnica and its Shock-Duals are a close second. Actually Ravnica would be third if I could vote for Alpha and the original Duals.

Media314r8

11-26-2007, 06:18 PM

@ Onslaught: Has anyone else ever played Onslaught limited? IMO it is one of the most godawful limited formats (aside from perhaps a 5x fallen empires draft) and nearly every deck looks the exact fing same in 3x Onslaught. If your deck doesnt fit the tribal theme, or you dont get enough mistform guys to take it there, you lose. Plain and simple. At least Lorwyn has more going on in it's limited than that. Mirage was great fun to draft, with a fairly good power curve and not too much broken-rare abuse, as well as having in it a legacy-legal Black Lotus in LED and let us not forget where flash first reared its ugly head. Dreadnaught, ect. I realize fetches are cool and goblins are a fine too, but I dont see anyone voting for revised, beta, ect becasue of the duals and the few other playables. (the first three core sets were even more fun to draft than 3x onslaught)

They fundamentally changed every format they are/were legal in. Ravnica and its Shock-Duals are a close second. Actually Ravnica would be third if I could vote for Alpha and the original Duals.

Fetches were hardly even played in standard after Onslaught's relesae, they really only were noticed after the rav-duals. Does anyone else remember T2 UG Madness and praying for both UU counterspell mana as well as G for wild mongrel? I think it was called the Forest Island Island deck. I personally remember my buddy picking up a playset f heaths for $5 total before the Rav duals were printed.

Oh yea, completely forgot about Fetchlands...

What card in Mirrodin was banned?

Skullclamp - Darksteel (Anywhere outside Vintage)
Aether Vial - Darksteel (Extended)
Trinisphere - Darksteel (Restricted in Vintage)

So... where are the Mirrodin banned cards?
(Or I am just missing some more obvious ones like the Fetchlands in Onslaught)

Disciple of the Vault. The Yin to ravager's Yang

Wallace

11-26-2007, 06:23 PM

I realize fetches are cool and goblins are a fine too, but I dont see anyone voting for revised, beta, ect becasue of the duals and the few other playables. (the first three core sets were even more fun to draft than 3x onslaught)

Thats because this is the vote for the best expansion, clearly the base sets are the best, Revised (3re Ed.) is a mix of Alpha/Beta, Arabian Nights, Antiq. and Legends. The rest of the base sets (4th ed. - 10th ed.) are all a mix of other sets and are also better than any expansion.

Edit: Triple Post?

Barook

11-26-2007, 06:27 PM

I voted for Tempest - not only for nostalgic value (I started playing Magic at that time), but also for the reason that it has many, many cards that are still relevant today while being not totally retarded in power level.

Onslaught had a few nice things (Fetchlands, Goblins, Storm), but I would say that Odyssey was a more important due to the discovery of the graveyard as a resource.

Eldariel

11-26-2007, 06:41 PM

Arabian Nights. I love everything about that set and the good creatures, Bazaar et co. all have contributed heavily at various eras of Magic's history (and I love all the non-basics they made there). Besides, it's really the cause I love Blue Aggro to start with. So yea, for personal reasons, Arabian Nights gets my vote. Worth noting that it's also the first expansion ever creating a lot of trends that have done a crapton of good for the game.

Pinder

11-26-2007, 06:42 PM

I personally remember my buddy picking up a playset f heaths for $5 total before the Rav duals were printed.

While this may have happened, I'd hardly count it as typical. Fetches were played in other formats (Legacy specifically) long before the Rav duals were printed. I mean, I remember when they were cheaper, sure, but $5 for a whole playset? That was definitely not how much they costed (maybe $5 apiece, but that's still pretty cheap.

Kadaj

11-26-2007, 06:51 PM

Completely out of personal bias (I started during Urza's Saga) I voted for Urza's Saga, although it does have some merits as a choice.

First off, it had by far the highest overall power level of any set, containing a shitload of cards that were either so broken they needed to be banned, or cards that were simply dominant at certain times. Beyond that, the set established a lot of guidelines for what can and can't be done as far as power level of cards and their manacosts, and it pushed Wizards to establish the current set-up for R&D which has proved very successful in recent years.

Silverdragon

11-26-2007, 07:00 PM

@ Onslaught: Has anyone else ever played Onslaught limited? IMO it is one of the most godawful limited formats (aside from perhaps a 5x fallen empires draft) and nearly every deck looks the exact fing same in 3x Onslaught. If your deck doesnt fit the tribal theme, or you dont get enough mistform guys to take it there, you lose. Plain and simple.
Yes I have drafted 3x Onslaught more than any other draft format by far. Me and my friends even keep coming back for more 3x Onslaught draft when there are cheap boxes available on ebay.

Mirage was great fun to draft, with a fairly good power curve and not too much broken-rare abuse[...]
lol? Mirage draft = fun? It seems we have very different opinions on what equals fun.

I realize fetches are cool and goblins are a fine too, but I dont see anyone voting for revised, beta, ect becasue of the duals and the few other playables. (the first three core sets were even more fun to draft than 3x onslaught)
Sacearuse already explained why noone should vote for base sets in the opening post.

Onslaught had a few nice things (Fetchlands, Goblins, Storm), but I would say that Odyssey was a more important due to the discovery of the graveyard as a resource.

Not totally true. Bazaar of Baghdad based decks with Ashen Ghoul and Nether Shadow existed before and Living Death based decks were also played far before Odyssey. However Odyssey was the first to use graveyard as a theme which was a totally new concept.

etrigan

11-26-2007, 07:37 PM

Ravnica. It provided cool stuff for just about every archetype (although not so much in Vintage), and did it without breaking Type 2 at all.

moxpearl

11-26-2007, 08:00 PM

So Annoying My Account Is Banned

11-26-2007, 08:03 PM

Onslaught will probably end up winning because of the fetches, and the fact that it created a tier 1 deck in pretty much every format when the block was finished.

As for non-land cards, onslaught isn't very impressive though. Goblin piledriver and exalted angel are the first ones that come to mind for me.

Urza's Saga should come in a close second because, that set was just damn powerful.

And props to Barook, I had never really thought of odyssey being a pioneer in the graveyard advantage world. It was definately an important set that had, overall, much more impressive cards than onslaught IMHO.

Eldariel

11-26-2007, 08:19 PM

I just did a search of money cards in the Saga block. While I certainly have a vintage bias, I was shocked at the number of powerful cards that I didn't realize came from a single block:

Academy Rector, Argothian Enchantress, Duress, Elvish Piper, Engineered Plague, Exploration, Faerie Conclave, Gaea’s Cradle, Gamble, Gilded Drake, Glorious Anthem, Goblin Lackey, Goblin Matron, Goblin Welder, Grim Monolith, Ill-Gotten Gains, Karn, Silver Golem, Masticore, Memory Jar, Metalworker, Morphling, Mother of Runes, Palinchron, Phyrexian Negator, Powder Keg, Priest of Titania, Rancor, Replenish, Serra Avatar, Serra’s Sanctum, Smokestack, Sneak Attack, Stroke of Genius, Time Spiral, Tinker, Tolarian Academy, Yawgmoth’s Bargain,…and the granddaddy of them all, Yawmogth’s Will.

I assume you didn't play back when it was released, did you? There's a reason a crapton of people quit the game right around those times. >_> You could add a bunch of cards to that list, like Treetop Village, Sneak Attack, Mind over Matter, Fluctuator, Voltaic Key, Frantic Search, the other free cards, Back to Basics, Show and Tell and so on. That was the block that has generated the rule for Magic-design: "Never let Mark Rosewater design a card unsupervised."

Not totally true. Bazaar of Baghdad based decks with Ashen Ghoul and Nether Shadow existed before and Living Death based decks were also played far before Odyssey. However Odyssey was the first to use graveyard as a theme which was a totally new concept.

Well, I recall the first times it was really abused was when Squee was printed. But yea, WGD helped a lot to make that more workable as Bazaar didn't only provide CA and selection anymore, it also won the game.

kirdape3

11-26-2007, 08:29 PM

Saga was absolutely ridiculous in terms of power level across the board. Even drafting wasn't that fun - draft black (Pestilence was a common? RUJK?!) and you'd be fine.

Onslaught draft was actually terrible because of the common Timberwatch Elf and Sparksmith. What's the point of having rarity symbols when either one of those two was going to be the best card in your pack almost always? A lot of really good players stopped playing at this point because they would just up and lose to complete idiots who had the fortune to have these cards in their deck.

As for best set, Tempest and Exodus were both awesome.

Wallace

11-26-2007, 08:39 PM

I remember my first sealed Urza's block sealed deck. My rare pool Contained Morphling, Great Whale, Masticore and Lifeline. Prob. one of the sickest pools I have ever had.

Machinus

11-26-2007, 08:40 PM

Saga is my favorite set ever, and it also happens to define pretty strongly the Eternal formats.

Even so, Tempest is the best set/block. If you didn't vote for Tempest, go read the spoiler on Gatherer right now.

Horror Business

11-26-2007, 08:40 PM

Saga was probably the reason I played Magic for as long as I did. The game got slower and more multi colored as the sets came out and that pretty much killed it for me. Rath Cycle/Saga was probably the funnest time I had playing Magic before Legacy came about.
For all its 'brokenness" Stompy was a competitive deck back then. Wild Dogs with Rancor was that tech:wink:

Bovinious

11-26-2007, 08:52 PM

Saga is easily the best block, it has more banned and restricted cards than any other set except ABU, I dont know how anyone can think Onslaught or Tempest can compare...

Wallace

11-26-2007, 09:03 PM

Saga is easily the best block, it has more banned and restricted cards than any other set except ABU, I dont know how anyone can think Onslaught or Tempest can compare...

Ahhh.. but were talking about the best set, not the best block. Saga is hands down the best block, but is it the best set?

Sanguine Voyeur

11-26-2007, 09:20 PM

Best in what regards? Strongest? Best designed? Richest standard environment?

There are key differences between them.

calosso

11-26-2007, 09:26 PM

What about Futuresight? It has Tarmogoyf

Slay

11-26-2007, 09:29 PM

I'm throwing my hat in the ring for Ravnica as the best set. Not only did it have a really, really balanced drafting experience, but the Standard experience with Ravnica featured a wide variety of well-built and creative decks, none of which were anywhere near 'broken'. It put good and great cards into every format in the game, created an entire archetype(Dredge), and most importantly, did this right on the back of the worst block in Magic history. Ravnica is the best set, despite its low power level compared to Saga.
-Slay

Nihil Credo

11-26-2007, 10:13 PM

I'd split my vote into categories:

Best Concept: Odyssey. Every other "themed" large set (Invasion, Onslaught, Mirrodin) used the same gimmick: pick a subtype of cards, and make a lot of them. Odyssey's theme was a game zone, so what it did was bring a new resource into the game of Magic: the Gathering. Despite its strong identity, it added a new dimension to the game, instead of being a 300-card precon.

Best Individual Cards: Urza's Legacy. Look at Moxpearl's list above. Despite its well-known development mistakes, I am amazed by how many UL cards are 1) original; 2) fun; 3) tournament staples yet not broken. There's simple-yet-effective stuff like Mother of Runes, Might of Oaks, or Crop Rotation; splashy Timmy cards like Multani and Phyrexian Plaguelord; amazing deckbuilding tools like Goblin Welder or the manlands.

Best Design: Time Spiral. The concept seemed impossible: bring practically every non-broken mechanic back from the past and fit it all in a single set? While also adding two new, rules-complex keywords of it own? Yet it worked, and while the flavour may be the most awesome thing in Time Spiral - it's incredibly fun to catch all the references buried in every draft common - its design work is a close second.

Best Development: Ravnica. I don't have anything to add to what Slay said. Ravnica gave every format exactly what it needed; its only flaw was an uncomfortable Block Constructed, because you weren't playing an optimal deck if you weren't running thirty money rares.

Nightmare

11-26-2007, 11:05 PM

Beta.

Bovinious

11-26-2007, 11:07 PM

If this is about best set not best block why are all of the choices the first set in their respective blocks? Personally I think Scourge and Future Sight are in the running for best set but arnt even a choice, and probably are not as good as good as any Urza Block set anyways.

Urza's Saga is still way up there as a set as it has Academy, Yawgmoth's Win, Time Spiral, Windfall, Gaea's Cradle, Lackey etc., not sure if its the best set but from the choices given I think it is.

kirdape3

11-26-2007, 11:20 PM

Saga actually was the worst-designed set in history. The number of degenerate combination decks that it spawned in both Standard and Extended was high enough to make Pro Tour: Rome a farce where if you got to turn 4 you were glad to do it.

xsockmonkeyx

11-27-2007, 01:37 AM

Beta.

Slay

11-27-2007, 09:00 AM

Beta was worse than alpha, you only think beta was good because you're too young to remember the glory days of alpha

[/get off my lawn]

Illissius

11-27-2007, 09:28 AM

Are we going for "best" set, most powerful set, favorite set, or what?

My favorite, being the one out of those I can answer, is definitely Exodus. Survival of the Fittest, Oath of Druids, Oath of Ghouls, Recurring Nightmare, Cataclysm, Hatred, Ertai, Manabond, Mind Over Matter, Spike Weaver, and many other awesome cards.

kirdape3: You can actually build a turn 4-5 combo deck using nothing but Saga.

Maveric78f

11-27-2007, 09:49 AM

My preference goes to Ravnica because of limited and it's light but real impact on legacy. Nevertheless, I am still angry after designer for not making Warpworld 5 or 6CC. It's such a great card... It was even competitive in T2 @ 8CC.

Mordenkain

11-27-2007, 10:22 AM

I'd split my vote into categories:

Best Concept: Odyssey. Every other "themed" large set (Invasion, Onslaught, Mirrodin) used the same gimmick: pick a subtype of cards, and make a lot of them. Odyssey's theme was a game zone, so what it did was bringing a new resource into the game of Magic: the Gathering. Despite its strong identity, it added a new dimension to the game, instead of being a 300-card precon.

Best Individual Cards: Urza's Legacy. Look at Moxpearl's list above. Despite its well-known development mistakes, I am amazed by how many Saga cards are 1) original; 2) fun; 3) tournament staples yet not broken. There's simple-yet-effective stuff like Mother of Runes, Might of Oaks, or Crop Rotation; splashy Timmy cards like Multani and Phyrexian Plaguelord; amazing deckbuilding tools like Goblin Welder or the manlands.

Best Design: Time Spiral. The concept seemed impossible: bring practically every non-broken mechanic back from the past and fit it all in a single set? While also adding two new, rules-complex keywords of it own? Yet it worked, and while the flavour may be the most awesome thing in Time Spiral - it's incredibly fun to catch all the references buried in every draft common - its design work is a close second.

Best Development: Ravnica. I don't have anything to add to what Slay said. Ravnica gave every format exactly what it needed; its only flaw was an uncomfortable Block Constructed, because you weren't playing an optimal deck if you weren't running thirty money rares.

This is so true. I completely agree on everything here. As for personal preference, i'll go with Odyssey, because of the ever bah-roken Tog. Simply love that card, and all the funny alterations there have been done of him. Also, he was one of the few creatures to actually make a heavy impact on vintage.

SouthAlly

11-27-2007, 01:16 PM

Apocalypse. So many of the cards have become staples or nearly such. Even the lesser known ones are really cool.

Jilt
Spectral Lynx
Orim's Thunder
Guided Passage
lots others

freakish777

11-27-2007, 01:57 PM

If this were most powerful block, I'd have to go with Ice Age block (just look at Bring Your Own Standard from the invitational, not to mention the 3rd most powerful draw spell ever printed being in Ice Age and allowed to reign in old old extended for, what, several years before finally getting the axe?).

Best set however? Clearly you guys are forgetting drafting red in Mirage with Torch/Incinerate/Spitting Earth at common and Volcanic Geyser at uncommon :tongue:

troopatroop

11-27-2007, 01:57 PM

Apocalypse. So many of the cards have become staples or nearly such. Even the lesser known ones are really cool.

Jilt
Spectral Lynx
Orim's Thunder
Guided Passage
lots others

Jilt. Lol.

MattH

11-27-2007, 06:41 PM

I looooved Saga. Tons of "oh man I gotta get some of THAT" cards, even apart from the combo mistakes, plus I loved the flavor. The Phyrexian Scriptures alone would decide this contest.

I HATE tribal themes. Onslaught has a total of five cards in it, as far as I am concerned.

Ravnica was probably the most fun to draft ever. I was very bored by its Standard run, though. At the time I thought Invasion was neat but its shine has worn off and now I find it very boring.

Odyssey gets the Honorable Mention. Some great cards but the flavor is a complete anchor around its neck...oh dear god, Werebear's flavor text. NO. Also, they went way over their Ugly White People budget on the art. Mirage was just the opposite - a gem to look at but the interesting cards weren't that many.

etrigan

11-27-2007, 07:00 PM

Mirage was just the opposite - a gem to look at but the interesting cards weren't that many.

I agree. Pity Ian Miller and Margaret Organ-Kean didn't draw more cards.

Wallace

11-27-2007, 10:20 PM