Weekly 3CB: #10 (entries close 12/7/07) (PMs accepted)

[Illissius]

3CB #10 is open for entries! Congratulations to Illissius, winner of 3CB #9, and to TheCramp, only two points behind!

Decklists and results for previous 3CBs can be found at the wiki (http://thesource3cb.pbwiki.com/). Edit your results in for 3CBs #3-5 and #9 if you played in those (password is 3cbthesource). Seriously guys, this is getting ridiculous. Every time you don't edit the wiki, God kills a lesbian.

Entries for this round close at 23:59 EST on Friday, December 7th. To enter, either PM me, or send your deck by email to thesource3cb at gmail. I'm accepting a second deck per player, if you want to submit one (do it separately from the first). Preferred format for submissions:


(3CB #10 Entry title of PM or email)
A Powerful Card, A Sorrowful Tale deck name

City of Traitors first card
Rishadan Pawnshop second card
Kobolds of Kher Keep third card

I once played a deck with Rishadan Pawnshop in it, it let me shuffle a permanent I own back into my own library for :2:. It was awesome. So awesome. I loved it. I wanted to marry it, but my dreams were cruelly dashed apart, and now I am but a broken, empty husk of a hopeless half-man without any hope whose dreams have been cruelly dashed apart. I am become Woe, the gatherer of turds. =( notes, comments, flames, taunts, theological thermodynamic dissertations

My username is insertnamehere. if you send email, be sure to include your username

these tiny letters are explanation, not part of the format, damnit.


If you're paranoid about me seeing your deck (I won't), I'll be posting the MWS security code for my own deck within the next few days and you can wait for that.



-- What is 3CB? --

3CB, which stands for Three Card Blind, is a unique format of Magic play, quite unlike any other; sort of like a very (very, very -- in the way a government bureaucracy is an advanced form of a pickpocket --) advanced form of Rock, Paper, Scissors. As per the name, you have three cards, of your own choosing. They are your deck and your hand. Your opponent also has three cards. All normally hidden information is visible to both players, and nothing happens randomly, so the optimal play for each player is always known -- meaning you don't actually play any Magic, per se. You submit a deck, so does everyone else, and all outcomes (all decks versus all other decks) are determined deterministically, usually by a moderator, or (as we do here) group effort. Unless you can break the format in half, it often comes down to metagaming.


-- Rules of 3CB --

Your deck is composed of 3 cards which all start in your hand.
Your library contains 0 cards and you don’t have a sideboard nor own any cards outside of the game. (Wishes fetch nothing.)
Random effects always go in your opponent's favor. (This includes Chaos Orb and Falling Star. If controllership of something with random effects changes, they go in favor of the player who doesn't own it.)
You can see your opponent's hand, so you make the best possible play. (If both players' taking an action would cause that player to lose the game, then neither player takes any action, and the game is a draw.)
You don't lose as a result of not being able to draw a card. (If cards are put in your library, you draw them as normal. Effects which require you to skip a draw work as normal.)
You play each opponent twice; once going first and once going second.
For each win, you score 3 points.
For each draw, you score 1 point.
For each loss, you score 0 points.

Three rules restrict the kind of deck you can send. They are:
1. You may not submit a deck that can win before the opponent's first main phase.
2. You may not submit a deck that can force an opponent to lose more than one card from his or her hand in a single turn.
3. You may not submit a deck that uses a card on the 3CB banned list.

Other than the aforementioned, everything is handled exactly like a real game of Magic.


-- 3CB Banned List --

All Ante Cards
All Promo cards not available on Gatherer/Autocard
All Unglued and Unhinged Cards (excluding basic lands)

Creatures:
Magus of the Moon
Mesmeric Fiend
Nezumi Shortfang
Voidstone Gargoyle

Lands:
Ghost Quarter
Glacial Chasm
Strip Mine
Wasteland

Artifacts:
The Rack

Enchantments:
Barren Glory
Form of the Dragon

Instants:
Force of Will

Sorceries:
Abandon Hope
Balance
Blackmail
Cabal Therapy
Coercion
Pulse of the Dross
Restore Balance
Thoughtseize

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Still two decks? I forgot to enter last time.

[Illissius]

Yep.

[etrigan]

Is that really necessary? 13 individual players, plus Sacul and whoever else forgot to enter. That should give us 15-18 players next week, which is enough.

[Illissius]

Minus whoever doesn't feel like entering again. No, it isn't necessary, but why not? Around 20 entries like we got last time is perfectly fine.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

No, it isn't necessary, but why not?

Why not have 5 lists each?

It feels lame; like you don't have to ride anything on a decklist, cause you have a back-up. Plus it can make double-checking confusing. This one's all ready started, but I for one would like a return to normalcy next go round.

[Illissius]

Well, I'm open to opinions. What do other people think?

I like aiming for about 20 entries, and optional second decks seem to get us in the neighbourhood of that. As for why specifically two: it's the first whole number greater than one. Personally, I like it because it lets me submit one deck to try and win with, and another just to experiment.

[Illissius]

Security codes for my decks are D17BE6D8 and 47FE9685.

If no one else cares about second decks either way, I think I'll stick with them for now (unless there's a big jump in participation).

[Wallace]

Security codes for my decks are D17BE6D8 and 47FE9685.

If no one else cares about second decks either way, I think I'll stick with them for now (unless there's a big jump in participation).

I think two decks is fine, I mean this is just for fun anyway right? Its cool to be able to test two decks at once.

[Illissius]

Less than a day and a half left!

[etrigan]

How is random discard handled?

[georgjorge]

Random effects always go in your opponent's favor. (This includes Chaos Orb and Falling Star. If controllership of something with random effects changes, they go in favor of the player who doesn't own it.)

[etrigan]

That explains heads/tails random choice. How does it explain random choice in regards to cards in hand? Does the opponent simply choose?

[Mordenkain]

That explains heads/tails random choice. How does it explain random choice in regards to cards in hand? Does the opponent simply choose?

In opponents favor. I would take it as the opponent chooses the card he wants to discard because that is the most advantage to him.

[Illissius]

Pretty good haul this week, seems second decks really caught on. Which means, ironically enough, that I'm not going to do them next week, as we had a good turnout this time even without them (16 unique players)... and maybe for the next several weeks afterwards either, because I'm going to have less time for all this stuff during exam period.

Also, mad props go to SpatulaOfTheAges for being the second person to fill in his wiki results for 3CB #3. Only 23 more to go!

1. SpatulaOfTheAges - WeWorkHardWePlayHard.dec
Mishra's Workshop
Epochrasite
Chimeric Idol

2. SpatulaOfTheAges - Umph
Black Lotus
City of Traitors
Kodama of the North Tree

3. T_B - Worst Color's Best Deck
Black Lotus
Ajani Goldmane
Quicksand

4. georgjorge - But...this is madness !
Quicksand
Gibbering Descent
Lion's Eye Diamond

5. georgjorge - Another Tribute to Tacosnape...
Mishra's Workshop
Wheel of Torture
Chimeric Idol

6. Sanguine Voyeur - Shining Arbor
Dryad Arbor
Shining Shoal
Autochthon Wurm

7. Sanguine Voyeur - I know how to spell Tabernacle?
City of Traitors
Epochrasite
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

8. Sacearuse - Basic Plains
Plains
Mishra's Factory
Swords to Plowshares

9. Sacearuse - Hostle
Black Lotus
Black Lotus
Hostility

10. Xero - Lol@STP
Black Lotus
Show and Tell
Akroma, Angel of Fury

11. Xero -
Black Lotus
Channel
Nullstone Gargoyle

12. technogeek5000 - 3 lands .deck
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Sheltered Valley
Mishra's Factory

13. technogeek5000 - Gargoyle
Nullstone Gargoyle
City of Traitors
Black Lotus

14. Mordenkain - //Neo-Pawnshop.dec
Epochrasite
City of Traitors
Tel-Jilad Stylus

15. Mordenkain - //Megaliths.dec
Keldon Megaliths
Energy Field
Izzet Boilerworks

16. TheCramp - Metaguess...
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Eladamri's Vineyard
Treetop Village

17. TheCramp - Delayed Blast Fireball!!
Black Lotus
City of Traitors
Chandra Nalaar

18. Andros - Bomb Factory
Mishra's Factory
Orzhov Basilica
Vindicate

19. Maveric78f - Drunk Village People
Treetop Village
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Eladamri's Vineyard

20. Maveric78f - Isamaru's singularity
Leyline of Singularity
Karakas
Isamaru, Hound of Konda

21. DeepfriedDynamite - TITAN
Black Lotus
Show and Tell
Sundering Titan

22. etrigan - Two Great Tastes
The Tabernacle as Pendrell Vale
Mishra's Workshop
Chimeric Idol

23. Anusien - Did I Do All That Math For Nothing?
Dreadship Reef
Urza's Factory
Energy Field

24. Anusien - This Lotus Card is Silly
Dreadship Reef
Urza's Factory
Chalice of the Void

25. freakish777 -
Eladamri's Vineyard
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Treetop Village

26. freakish777 -
Mishra's Workshop
Wheel of Torture
Steel Golem

27. Illissius - Big Liths
Keldon Megaliths
Izzet Boilerworks
Energy Field

28. Illissius - Four Mana Rare Enchantment
Black Lotus
Leonin Squire
Land Equilibrium
(10/4/2004 This is a replacement effect, so it is not possible to tap the land that just entered play for mana (as a mana source) before you sacrifice a land.)

Calculate your results. Add them to the wiki (http://thesource3cb.pbwiki.com/). (Password is 3cbthesource.)

Also, rofl. I just noticed we actually get to play the matchup this time (there was *ahem* some discussion about it on IRC) -- guys, try to figure out the results of #24 versus #12. Guaranteed headache. (I already know, as does Anusien, but not telling yet ;).

[Wallace]

Question about Nullstone Gargoyle, if my opponent goes Lotus, Show & Tell, Gargoyle, can I swords it. The Black Lotus would be the first Non-Creature spell in the turn right?

I would also like to say that I think Energy Field is way to powerfull and needs to be banned. Either you play it, or a way to destroy it, or you lose.

1. SpatulaOfTheAges - WeWorkHardWePlayHard.dec
Mishra's Workshop
Epochrasite
Chimeric Idol

D-D 2 (2)

2. SpatulaOfTheAges - Umph
Black Lotus
City of Traitors
Kodama of the North Tree

L-L 0 (2)

3. T_B - Worst Color's Best Deck
Black Lotus
Ajani Goldmane
Quicksand

L-L 0 (2)

4. georgjorge - But...this is madness !
Quicksand
Gibbering Descent
Lion's Eye Diamond
L-L 2 (2)

5. georgjorge - Another Tribute to Tacosnape...
Mishra's Workshop
Wheel of Torture
Chimeric Idol

L-L 0 (2)

6. Sanguine Voyeur - Shining Arbor
Dryad Arbor
Shining Shoal
Autochthon Wurm

D-D 2 (4)

7. Sanguine Voyeur - I know how to spell Tabernacle?
City of Traitors
Epochrasite
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

W-W 6 (10)

8. Sacearuse - Basic Plains
Plains
Mishra's Factory
Swords to Plowshares

ME

9. Sacearuse - Hostle
Black Lotus
Black Lotus
Hostility

W-W 6 (16)

10. Xero - Lol@STP
Black Lotus
Show and Tell
Akroma, Angel of Fury

L-L 0 (16)

11. Xero -
Black Lotus
Channel
Nullstone Gargoyle

W-L 3 (19)

12. technogeek5000 - 3 lands .deck
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Sheltered Valley
Mishra's Factory

W-W 6 (25)

13. technogeek5000 - Gargoyle
Nullstone Gargoyle
City of Traitors
Black Lotus

3-L 3 (28)

14. Mordenkain - //Neo-Pawnshop.dec
Epochrasite
City of Traitors
Tel-Jilad Stylus

W-W 6 (34)

15. Mordenkain - //Megaliths.dec
Keldon Megaliths
Energy Field
Izzet Boilerworks

L-L 0 (34)

16. TheCramp - Metaguess...
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Eladamri's Vineyard
Treetop Village

W-W 6 (40)

17. TheCramp - Delayed Blast Fireball!!
Black Lotus
City of Traitors
Chandra Nalaar

W-W 6 (46)

18. Andros - Bomb Factory
Mishra's Factory
Orzhov Basilica
Vindicate

L-L 0 (46)

19. Maveric78f - Drunk Village People
Treetop Village
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Eladamri's Vineyard

W-W 6 (52)

20. Maveric78f - Isamaru's singularity
Leyline of Singularity
Karakas
Isamaru, Hound of Konda

D-D 2 (54)

21. DeepfriedDynamite - TITAN
Black Lotus
Show and Tell
Sundering Titan

D-D 2 (56)

22. etrigan - Two Great Tastes
The Tabernacle as Pendrell Vale
Mishra's Workshop
Chimeric Idol

W-W 6 (62)

23. Anusien - Did I Do All That Math For Nothing?
Dreadship Reef
Urza's Factory
Energy Field

L-L 0 (62)

24. Anusien - This Lotus Card is Silly
Dreadship Reef
Urza's Factory
Chalice of the Void

W-W 6 (68)

25. freakish777 -
Eladamri's Vineyard
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Treetop Village

W-W 6 (74)

26. freakish777 -
Mishra's Workshop
Wheel of Torture
Steel Golem

L-L 0 (74)

27. Illissius - Big Liths
Keldon Megaliths
Izzet Boilerworks
Energy Field

L-L 0 (74)

28. Illissius - Four Mana Rare Enchantment
Black Lotus
Leonin Squire
Land Equilibrium

D-L 1 (75)

[etrigan]

Sacearuse: That works.

Illisius: DD I believe. Anusien can only ever make 2 tokens. He can attack with both, forcing through 2 damage, losing a token. But he can never force through enough damage in the face of Sheltered Valley. technogeek can never attack into a token.

[Illissius]

Question about Nullstone Gargoyle, if my opponent goes Lotus, Show & Tell, Gargoyle, can I swords it. The Black Lotus would be the first Non-Creature spell in the turn right?


Right.


I would also like to say that I think Energy Field is way to powerfull and needs to be banned. Either you play it, or a way to destroy it, or you lose.

Sigh. The same is true of so many cards. Play Duress, or Mage, or Vindicate, or Crack the Earth, or Vineyard, or Rakdos, or... you get the picture. It's far from unbeatable. It would have done positively horrid last round, for example. The metagame is everything.


13. technogeek5000 - Gargoyle
Nullstone Gargoyle
City of Traitors
Black Lotus

L-L 0 (35)

W-W. Voidstone is banned, and Nullstone costs :9:, so this deck actually does nothing (without an opposing Show and Tell, anyways).



Illisius: DD I believe. Anusien can only ever make 2 tokens. He can attack with both, forcing through 2 damage, losing a token. But he can never force through enough damage in the face of Sheltered Valley. technogeek can never attack into a token.

Half right. technogeek can't attack into untapped Reef with 7 counters plus Factory, but Anusien can store a shit-ton of counters on the Reef, and during each upkeep for the next N turns, pay for the Tabernacle costs of all the previous tokens, and make a new one. The question is whether he can build up enough damage this way to overcome the lifegain from Valley in all the intervening turns.

[Xero]

10. Xero - Lol@STP
Black Lotus
Show and Tell
Akroma, Angel of Fury

W-W 6 (29)





Did you notice the name of my deck? It's the red Akroma, so it has protection from white.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

WeWorkHardWePlayHard.dec
Mishra's Workshop
Epochrasite
Chimeric Idol

1 - Handsome, cordial fellow. We draw, drink tea and discuss Tolstoy.
2. Black Lotus, City of Traitors, North Tree - DD - 2
3. T_B - Black Lotus, Ajani, Quicksand - WW - 8
4. georgjorge - Quicksand, Gibbering Descent, LED - WW - 14
5. georgjorge - Workshop, WheelOTorture, Chimeric Idol - LL - 14
6. SanguineVoyeur - Arbor,Shining Shoal, Autochthon Wurm - WW - 20
7. Sanguine Voyeur - City of Traitors, Epochrasite, Tabernacle- WW - 26
8. Sacearuse - Plains, Factory, StP - DD - 28
9. Sacearuse - Lotus, Lotus, Hostility - DD - 30
10. Xero - Lotus, Show and Tell, Akroma, AoF - LL - 30
11. Xero -Black Lotus, Channel, Nullstone Gargoyle - DL - 31
12. technogeek5000 - Tabernacle, Valley, Mishra's Factory - WW - 37

Epochrasite gradually races Valley. He dies, comes back 3 turns later, does 4 damage, while Valley gains 3 life. Idol and Factory stand off with each other. So like a hundred turns later Epochrasite will finally win.

13. technogeek5000 - Nullstone Gargoyle, City of Traitors,Lotus - Correct me if I'm wrong, but you can't cast Gargoyle with only 5 mana. - WW - 43

14. Mordenkain - Epochrasite, City of Traitors, Stylus - WW - 49
15. Mordenkain - Keldon Megaliths, Energy Field, Izzet Boilerworks - LL - 49

16. TheCramp - The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Eladamri's Vineyard, Treetop Village - So redoing the math, Vineyard outraces the irregular Epochrasite on the draw, but my lead edges me over on the play. - WL 52

17. TheCramp - Black Lotus, City of Traitors, Chandra Nalaar - WW - 58
18. Andros - Mishra's Factory, Orzhov Basilica, Vindicate - DD - 60
19. Maveric78f - Treetop Village, Tabernacle, Vineyard - WL - 63
20. Maveric78f - Leyline of Singularity, Karakas, Isamaru - LL - 63
21. DeepfriedDynamite - Lotus, Show and Tell
Sundering Titan - LL - 63
22. etrigan - Tabernacle, Workshop, Chimeric Idol - WW - 69
23. Anusien - Dreadship Reef, Urza's Factory, Energy Field - LL - 69
24. Anusien - Dreadship Reef, Urza's Factory, Chalice - WW - 75
25. freakish777 - Vineyard, Tabernacle, Treetop Village - WW - 81
26. freakish777 - Workshop, Wheel of Torture, Steel Golem - LL - 81
27. Illissius - Keldon Megaliths, Izzet Boilerworks, Energy Field - LL - 81
28. Illissius - Black Lotus, Leonin Squire, Land Equilibrium - WL - 85


Wham!
Black Lotus
City of Traitors
Kodama of the North Tree
1 - Workshop, Epochrasite, Idol - DD - 2
2. Time Warp!
3. T_B - Black Lotus, Ajani, Quicksand - WW - 8
4. georgjorge - Quicksand, Gibbering Descent, LED - WL - 11
5. georgjorge - Workshop, WheelOTorture, Chimeric Idol -WL - 14
6. SanguineVoyeur - Arbor,Shining Shoal, Autochthon Wurm - WW - 20
7. Sanguine Voyeur - City of Traitors, Epochrasite, Tabernacle- WW - 26
8. Sacearuse - Plains, Factory, StP - WW - 32
9. Sacearuse - Lotus, Lotus, Hostility - WL - 35
10. Xero - Lotus, Show and Tell, Akroma, AoF - LL - 35
11. Xero -Black Lotus, Channel, Nullstone Gargoyle - DL - 36
12. technogeek5000 - Tabernacle, Valley, Mishra's Factory - WW - 42
13. technogeek5000 - Nullstone Gargoyle, City of Traitors,Lotus - WW - 48
14. Mordenkain - Epochrasite, City of Traitors, Stylus - DD - 50
15. Mordenkain - Keldon Megaliths, Energy Field, Izzet Boilerworks - LL - 50
16. TheCramp - The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Eladamri's Vineyard, Treetop Village - WW - 56
17. TheCramp - Black Lotus, City of Traitors, Chandra Nalaar - WW - 62
18. Andros - Mishra's Factory, Orzhov Basilica, Vindicate - WW - 68
19. Maveric78f - Treetop Village, Tabernacle, Vineyard - WW - 74
20. Maveric78f - Leyline of Singularity, Karakas, Isamaru - WW - 80
21. DeepfriedDynamite - Lotus, Show and Tell
Sundering Titan - LL - 80
22. etrigan - Tabernacle, Workshop, Chimeric Idol - WW - 86
23. Anusien - Dreadship Reef, Urza's Factory, Energy Field - LL - 86
24. Anusien - Dreadship Reef, Urza's Factory, Chalice - WL - 89
25. freakish777 - Vineyard, Tabernacle, Treetop Village - WW - 95
26. freakish777 - Workshop, Wheel of Torture, Steel Golem - WL - 98
27. Illissius - Keldon Megaliths, Izzet Boilerworks, Energy Field - LL - 98
28. Illissius - Black Lotus, Leonin Squire, Land Equilibrium - WL - 101

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

1. SpatulaOfTheAges - WeWorkHardWePlayHard.dec
Mishra's Workshop
Epochrasite
Chimeric Idol

W-W 6 (6)

We draw both games. StP trades with Epochrasite and Factory and Idol face off indefinitely.

[georgjorge]

@Sareacuse: How do you win a game against my deck 4. LED/Gibbering Descent/Quicksand ? Swords is useless, and Factory will always run into Quicksand, while you lose one life per turn. It's WW for me (I've corrected it in the Wiki, hope that's ok).

Overall, my LED/Gibbering Descent/Quicksand has 92 points, which is ok, but after last round, I thought there would be more slow control decks with depletion lands and whatnot, and not as many Lotus decks as I thought. Oh, and I really hate Sheltered Valley.

[Illissius]

16. TheCramp - The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Eladamri's Vineyard, Treetop Village - Tabernacle + Vineyard = Not savage tech. Village and Idol trade/stand-off, Epochrasite brings it home. - WW - 55

Actually, Tabernacle + Vineyard is savage tech. Vineyard only gives you mana during your main phase (where it burns), not your upkeep. If Idol and Village trade, then the Tabernacle player also burns; and Village can't block, again because of the main phase thing. Don't know how any of this affects the result.

[georgjorge]

@Sareacuse: I think you should take another look at your Wiki results, as the results you entered in the Row often differ from those in the Column...for example, for the first three matchups, you have "6-0-0" for your opponents, and "2-0-0" for you, which can't be right. To do it right, just write in the appropriate Rows of your opponents

6 where you got 0 points
0 where you got 6 points
2 where you got 2 points
4 where you got 1 point
1 where you got 4 points

Now my own results...

5. Chimeric Idol / Wheel of Torture / Mishra's Workshop

1. WW
2. WL
3. WL
4. WW
5.
6. WW
7. WW
8. WW
9. WL
10.WW
11. WL
12. WW
13. WW
14. WW
15. LL
16. WW
17. WW
18. DD
19. WW
20. WW
21. LL
22. WW
23. LL
24. WW
25. WW
26. WL
27. LL
28. WL

...for a respectable 116 points. Wow, this deck seems to do well almost every round. But it's not TOO good, as it typically loses to Lotus/Show and Tell-decks (if they put something better than Akroma or Nullstone Gargoyle into play ;) ), as well as to Energy Field.

[DeepfriedDynamite]

21. DeepfriedDynamite - TITAN
Black Lotus
Show and Tell
Sundering Titan

1. SpatulaOfTheAges - WeWorkHardWePlayHard.dec
Mishra's Workshop
Epochrasite
Chimeric Idol
WW - 6

2. SpatulaOfTheAges - Umph
Black Lotus
City of Traitors
Kodama of the North Tree

WW - 12

3. T_B - Worst Color's Best Deck
Black Lotus
Ajani Goldmane
Quicksand

WW - 18

4. georgjorge - But...this is madness !
Quicksand
Gibbering Descent
Lion's Eye Diamond

WW- 24 (your deck actually doesnt work, you discard first then you get the mana... at least i think so

5. georgjorge - Another Tribute to Tacosnape...
Mishra's Workshop
Wheel of Torture
Chimeric Idol

WW - 30

6. Sanguine Voyeur - Shining Arbor
Dryad Arbor
Shining Shoal
Autochthon Wurm

DD - 32

7. Sanguine Voyeur - I know how to spell Tabernacle?
City of Traitors
Epochrasite
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

LL - 32

8. Sacearuse - Basic Plains
Plains
Mishra's Factory
Swords to Plowshares

DD- 34 (nobody plays anything because doing so causes the other player to remove answer)

9. Sacearuse - Hostle
Black Lotus
Black Lotus
Hostility

WW - 40

10. Xero - Lol@STP
Black Lotus
Show and Tell
Akroma, Angel of Fury

WW - 46

11. Xero -
Black Lotus
Channel
Nullstone Gargoyle

WL - 49

12. technogeek5000 - 3 lands .deck
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Sheltered Valley
Mishra's Factory

LL - 49

13. technogeek5000 - Gargoyle
Nullstone Gargoyle
City of Traitors
Black Lotus

WW - 55 (I looked and the only other gargoyle worth playing for 5 is voidstone gargoyle... did you get them mixed up)

14. Mordenkain - //Neo-Pawnshop.dec
Epochrasite
City of Traitors
Tel-Jilad Stylus

DD- 57

15. Mordenkain - //Megaliths.dec
Keldon Megaliths
Energy Field
Izzet Boilerworks

LL - 57 (or maybe not, i thought you had to have a land in ply first for these to work)

16. TheCramp - Metaguess...
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Eladamri's Vineyard
Treetop Village

LL - 57

17. TheCramp - Delayed Blast Fireball!!
Black Lotus
City of Traitors
Chandra Nalaar

WW - 63

18. Andros - Bomb Factory
Mishra's Factory
Orzhov Basilica
Vindicate

LL - 63

19. Maveric78f - Drunk Village People
Treetop Village
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Eladamri's Vineyard

LL - 63

20. Maveric78f - Isamaru's singularity
Leyline of Singularity
Karakas
Isamaru, Hound of Konda

LL - 63

22. etrigan - Two Great Tastes
The Tabernacle as Pendrell Vale
Mishra's Workshop
Chimeric Idol

LL - 63

23. Anusien - Did I Do All That Math For Nothing?
Dreadship Reef
Urza's Factory
Energy Field

LL - 63 (takes a real long time but he eventually wins)

24. Anusien - This Lotus Card is Silly
Dreadship Reef
Urza's Factory
Chalice of the Void

WL - 66

25. freakish777 -
Eladamri's Vineyard
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Treetop Village

LL - 66 (to many tabernacles)

26. freakish777 -
Mishra's Workshop
Wheel of Torture
Steel Golem

WW - 72

27. Illissius - Big Liths
Keldon Megaliths
Izzet Boilerworks
Energy Field

LL - 72 (same deck as Mordenkain and your the last entered, please forgive me for being a little suspicious)

28. Illissius - Four Mana Rare Enchantment
Black Lotus
Leonin Squire
Land Equilibrium
(10/4/2004 This is a replacement effect, so it is not possible to tap the land that just entered play for mana (as a mana source) before you sacrifice a land.)

WW - 78

TO many tabernacles for no lands. I was doing good at first till i lost 5 in a row.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

...for a respectable 116 points. Wow, this deck seems to do well almost every round. But it's not TOO good, as it typically loses to Lotus/Show and Tell-decks (if they put something better than Akroma or Nullstone Gargoyle into play ;) ), as well as to Energy Field.

I disagree. I think it IS too good.


Vineyard only gives you mana during your main phase (where it burns), not your upkeep.

:/

Doh. Recalculating.

[Illissius]

WW- 24 (your deck actually doesnt work, you discard first then you get the mana... at least i think so

LED + Madness does work.


13. technogeek5000 - Gargoyle
Nullstone Gargoyle
City of Traitors
Black Lotus

WW - 55 (I looked and the only other gargoyle worth playing for 5 is voidstone gargoyle... did you get them mixed up)

Even if he did, Voidstone is the one banned, so I'm not sure what the thinking was here.


15. Mordenkain - //Megaliths.dec
Keldon Megaliths
Energy Field
Izzet Boilerworks

LL - 57 (or maybe not, i thought you had to have a land in ply first for these to work)

Yeah, the Megaliths.


27. Illissius - Big Liths
Keldon Megaliths
Izzet Boilerworks
Energy Field

LL - 72 (same deck as Mordenkain and your the last entered, please forgive me for being a little suspicious)

Actually, I'm not. I decided my decks on Tuesday, if you'll scroll up in the thread. Feel free to check the security codes. The order the entries get listed in here doesn't necessarily have any significance. In this case, the ones I got by PM are first, followed by the ones via email, reordered in some places so multiple decks by the same person are listed after each other. (Also, the Megaliths-Karoo deck first debuted back in 3CB #2 with Keg, and in #4 with Field, and it's seen play a few other times, so it's not too surprising to see two copies of it among nearly 30 entries).


Oh, and I really hate Sheltered Valley.

Yeah, Sheltered Valley sucks. >:|

I don't think the Wheel of Torture deck is too good, though it's certainly one of the strongest in the format. I think any card or deck would have to show results somewhere along the lines of Magus in 3CB #3 to be banned.

[Wallace]

Did you notice the name of my deck? It's the red Akroma, so it has protection from white.

Ha good point, I will fix that!!!

Thanks, etrigan and Illissius for answering my ?

[freakish777]

I'll calculate when I get home from work today.

@Spatula, I think I win, if we race, I have 5 damage a turn, where every 3 turns you get 7 damage and the rest of the time you get 3 (this might come down to play/draw however), if we trade, I get 2 damage a turn, and every 3 turns you get 4 (again though, might come down to play draw, as I basically have to lead with a CIPT land).

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

On the play;

Turn 1 I go Workshop -> Idol
Turn 1 you go Village
Turn 2 Swing(17you, 20me)
Turn 2 You play Vineyard, Tabernacle.
Turn 3 I play Epoch w/ Vineyard mana, Swing (14, 20)
Turn 3 You swing, I block, (14, 18)
Turn 4 2 Suspend counters, Vineyard burn, swing for 3(11, 16)
Turn 4 you swing (11, 13)
Turn 5 1 suspend counter, burn, swing (8, 11)
Turn 5 you swing (8, 8)
Turn 6 Epoch comes in, burn, swing (1, 6)
Turn 6 you swing (1, 3)
Turn 7 I burn, swing (-2, 1)

On the draw I lose.

[Wallace]

Results for deck #9

1. W-W 6 (6)
2. D-D 2 (8)
3. W-W 6 (14)
4. W-L 3 (17)
5. W-W 6 (23)
6. D-D 2 (25)
7. L-L 0 (25)
8. L-L 0 (25)
9. ME
10. D-D 2 (27)
11. W-L 3 (30)
12. L-L 0 (30)
13. W-L 3 (33)
14. W-W 6 (39)
15. L-L 0 (39)
16. L-L 0 (39)
17. W-W 6 (45)
18. L-L 0 (45)
19. L-L 0 (45)
20. L-L 0 (45)
21. L-L 0 (45)
22. L-L 0 (45)
23. L-L 0 (45)
24. W-L 3 (48)
25. L-L 0 (48)
26. W-W 6 (54)
27. L-L 0 (54)
28. W-W 6 (60)

Props: Haste!

Slops: Tabernacle, Energy Field

[freakish777]

Eladamri's Vineyard
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Treetop Village

@Spatula

Lotus, City, Kodama, me on the play.

Village
Kodama
Vineyard + Tabernacle
pay for Tabernacle, mana burn 1, mana burn 2 in main (you 17, me 20), you have to race (trying to play you just mana burn while I activate my guy and don't swing into Kodama) (you 17, me 14)
I attack 3 (even at 14)
You pay for Tab, burn 1, burn 2, (11, 14) attack (11, 8)
I attack (even at 8)
You burn 3 (5, 8) attack (5, 2)
I attack (even at 2)
You burn before you attack.


1. WL 3
2. WL 6
3. WW 12
4. WL 15
5. LL 15
6. WW 21
7. WW 27
8. LL 27
9. WW 33
10. WW 39
11. WW 45
12. LL 45
13. WW 51
14. WW 57
15. WW 63 (mana burn = life loss)
16. WL 66
17. WW 72
18. LL 72
19. WL 75
20. DD 77 (you have to wait to take a hit once with Village, then continually bounce Vineyard on my endstep to avoid mana burn and Village beating you down)
21. WW 83
22. WW 89
23. WW 95 (mana burn = life loss)
24. WL 98
25. XX 98
26. LL 98
27. WW 104
28. DL 105




Mishra's Workshop
Wheel of Torture
Steel Golem

against

Workshop
Wheel of Torture
Chimeric Idol

On the play I win by playing Golem and then Wheel and simply racing.
On the draw:

If they lead with Wheel:

I play Wheel, get the 2 damage first. They play Idol. I play Golem (18 all). They take 3 (them 15, me 18) and have to pass the turn since Golem has 1 more toughness. My turn we're both at 15, and then I proceed to win the race.

If they lead with Idol:

I play Golem. They play Wheel. I take 2 (them 20, me 18). I play Wheel, and attack (them 17, me 18). They take 3 (them 14, me 18) and attack (14, 15). I take 3 (them 14, me 12), and pass the turn. They take 3 (11, me 12). I take 3 (them 11, me 9) and attack (them 8, me 9). At this point I win the race.

1. WW 6
2. WL 9
3. WW 15
4. WW 21
5. WW 27
6. WW 33
7. WW 39
8. WW 45
9. LL 45
10. WW 51
11. WD 55
12. WW 61 (on the play I drop Golem first and win, on the draw they lead with Factory to try and beat, I lead with Wheel, they take 1 (19, 20) and play Valley and attack (19, 18), I play Golem, they take 2 (17, 18) gain 1 (18, 18) and have to play out Tabernacle. I sac Golem. They go, effectively take 2, then deal 2, I win by a turn.
13. WW 67 (you can't play your spell???)
14. WW 73
15. LL 73
16. WW 79
17. WW 85
18. WW 91
19. WW 97
20. WD 101 (on the draw, they can't play out Isamaru, if they do they lose to Wheel, they're forced to bounce Wheel forever, on the play, I get Wheel out and guarentee more damage then they can produce each turn).
21. LL 101
22. WW 107
23. LL 107
24. WW 113
25. WW 119
26. XX 119
27. LL 119
28. WL 122

[georgjorge]

@Sareacuse and freakish - sorry for calculating those games wrong with Idol/Wheel/Workshop. Back to 110 points :frown:


@freakish: How do you WW against decks 16, 19, 25 (Tabernacle/Treetop/Vineyard) with Workshop/Golem/Wheel ? After they play Tabernacle, you can only deal 3 per turn, while they deal 5, and you can't deal enough damage early to win that race.

[Xero]

. SpatulaOfTheAges - WeWorkHardWePlayHard.dec
Mishra's Workshop
Epochrasite
Chimeric Idol

WW, WD. 6 and 4

2. SpatulaOfTheAges - Umph
Black Lotus
City of Traitors
Kodama of the North Tree

WW, WD. 12 and 8.


3. T_B - Worst Color's Best Deck
Black Lotus
Ajani Goldmane
Quicksand

WW, WW. 18 and 14.

4. georgjorge - But...this is madness !
Quicksand
Gibbering Descent
Lion's Eye Diamond

WL, WL. 21 and 17.

5. georgjorge - Another Tribute to Tacosnape...
Mishra's Workshop
Wheel of Torture
Chimeric Idol

LL, WL 21 and 20

6. Sanguine Voyeur - Shining Arbor
Dryad Arbor
Shining Shoal
Autochthon Wurm

LL, WW. 21 and 26.

7. Sanguine Voyeur - I know how to spell Tabernacle?
City of Traitors
Epochrasite
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

LL, LL. 21 and 26.

8. Sacearuse - Basic Plains
Plains
Mishra's Factory
Swords to Plowshares

WW, LL. 27 and 26

9. Sacearuse - Hostle
Black Lotus
Black Lotus
Hostility

DD, WL. 29 and 29.



12. technogeek5000 - 3 lands .deck
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Sheltered Valley
Mishra's Factory

LL and LL. 29 and 29

13. technogeek5000 - Gargoyle
Nullstone Gargoyle
City of Traitors
Black Lotus

WW and WW. 35 and 35.

14. Mordenkain - //Neo-Pawnshop.dec
Epochrasite
City of Traitors
Tel-Jilad Stylus


WW and WW. 41 and 41.

15. Mordenkain - //Megaliths.dec
Keldon Megaliths
Energy Field
Izzet Boilerworks

LL and WW 41 and 47.

16. TheCramp - Metaguess...
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Eladamri's Vineyard
Treetop Village

LL and LL. 41 and 47.

17. TheCramp - Delayed Blast Fireball!!
Black Lotus
City of Traitors
Chandra Nalaar

LL, WL. 41 and 50.

18. Andros - Bomb Factory
Mishra's Factory
Orzhov Basilica
Vindicate

WW and WW. 47 and 56.

19. Maveric78f - Drunk Village People
Treetop Village
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Eladamri's Vineyard

LL and LL. 47 and 56.

20. Maveric78f - Isamaru's singularity
Leyline of Singularity
Karakas
Isamaru, Hound of Konda

LL and LL. 47 and 56.

21. DeepfriedDynamite - TITAN
Black Lotus
Show and Tell
Sundering Titan

LL and WL. 47 and 59.

22. etrigan - Two Great Tastes
The Tabernacle as Pendrell Vale
Mishra's Workshop
Chimeric Idol

LL and LL. 47 and 59.

23. Anusien - Did I Do All That Math For Nothing?
Dreadship Reef
Urza's Factory
Energy Field

LL and WW. 47 and 65.

24. Anusien - This Lotus Card is Silly
Dreadship Reef
Urza's Factory
Chalice of the Void

WL and WL. 50 and 68.



25. freakish777 -
Eladamri's Vineyard
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Treetop Village

LL and LL. 50 and 68.

26. freakish777 -
Mishra's Workshop
Wheel of Torture
Steel Golem

WW and LL. 56 and 68.

27. Illissius - Big Liths
Keldon Megaliths
Izzet Boilerworks
Energy Field

LL and WW. 56 and 74

28. Illissius - Four Mana Rare Enchantment
Black Lotus
Leonin Squire
Land Equilibrium

WW and WW. 62 and 80 = totals.

Sacaeruse: I don't think you beat Nullstone Gargoyle on the play. You lay a land, then pass. I Channel out Gargoyle, leaving me at 10. You are not able to StP Gargoyle. You play a land, pass. I attack, leaving you at 16. Me: 8 You: 12 Me: 6 You: 8 Me: 4 You: 4 Me: 2 You: Dead. Correct me if this is wrong.

[etrigan]

He is able to StP Gargoyle. Channel is considered the first noncreature spell played that turn.

I should really post my results one of these days. Now I have a legit excuse. Steal Lock! Make it sounds like a game. 'Do you want to steal the edit lock from this person?'

[Wallace]

. SpatulaOfTheAges - WeWorkHardWePlayHard.dec
Sacaeruse: I don't think you beat Nullstone Gargoyle on the play. You lay a land, then pass. I Channel out Gargoyle, leaving me at 10. You are not able to StP Gargoyle. You play a land, pass. I attack, leaving you at 16. Me: 8 You: 12 Me: 6 You: 8 Me: 4 You: 4 Me: 2 You: Dead. Correct me if this is wrong.

Channel would be the first spell played in the turn, so I could go plains go, you go channel Gargoyle , I swords it any time after that, durning your turn.

[Anusien]

8. Sacearuse - Basic Plains
Plains
Mishra's Factory
Swords to Plowshares

-versus-

23. Anusien - Did I Do All That Math For Nothing?
Dreadship Reef
Urza's Factory
Energy Field

I have me winning that Sacearuse.

19. Maveric78f - Drunk Village People
Treetop Village
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Eladamri's Vineyard

-versus-

23. Anusien - Did I Do All That Math For Nothing?
Dreadship Reef
Urza's Factory
Energy Field

I have me winning that Maveric78f. I can play Dreadship Reef and soak up the Vineyard mana, and sit back on Energy Field. Eventually I'll be able to make a million guys and wreck you.

[Wallace]

8. Sacearuse - Basic Plains
Plains
Mishra's Factory
Swords to Plowshares

-versus-

23. Anusien - Did I Do All That Math For Nothing?
Dreadship Reef
Urza's Factory
Energy Field

I have me winning that Sacearuse.

So do I, I put it in as a win for you, must have gotten changed.

[Illissius]

Alright, here's my own results.

27. Big Liths
Keldon Megaliths
Izzet Boilerworks
Energy Field

01. 6-0
02. 6-0
03. 2-2
04. 0-6
05. 6-0
06. 6-0
07. 6-0
08. 6-0
09. 6-0
10. 6-0
11. 0-6
12. 2-2
13. 6-0
14. 6-0
15. 2-2
16. 0-6
17. 6-0
18. 0-6
19. 0-6
20. 6-0
21. 6-0
22. 6-0
23. 2-2
24. 6-0
25. 0-6
26. 6-0
27. N/A
28. 0-6

Total: 104

28. Four Mana Rare Enchantment
Black Lotus
Leonin Squire
Land Equilibrium

01. 3-3
02. 3-3
03. 3-3
04. 3-3
05. 3-3
06. 1-4
07. 4-1
08. 4-1
09. 0-6
10. 0-6
11. 0-6
12. 4-1
13. 6-0
14. 4-1
15. 6-0
16. 3-3
17. 3-3
18. 6-0
19. 3-3
20. 3-3
21. 0-6
22. 3-3
23. 6-0
24. 3-3
25. 3-3
26. 3-3
27. 6-0
28. N/A

Total: 86

EDIT -- I filled in the missing vertical columns and fixed the errors I saw. Maveric78f, I have no idea what crap it was you put in your vertical column for #8, but it bore zero semblance to reality. You have to put the opposite result there compared to the row (so 0 for 6, 1 for 4, 3 for 3, 2 for 2, and vice versa), not the same one, but you also had a ton where it was 3-0 or 0-2 or similar nonsense.

[Xero]

Channel would be the first spell played in the turn, so I could go plains go, you go channel Gargoyle , I swords it any time after that, durning your turn.

Yeah... I though Gargoyle counted spells only after it had been played, but that's wrong :frown:

[freakish777]

@freakish: How do you WW against decks 16, 19, 25 (Tabernacle/Treetop/Vineyard) with Workshop/Golem/Wheel ? After they play Tabernacle, you can only deal 3 per turn, while they deal 5, and you can't deal enough damage early to win that race.


Mmmm, I'm not sure how I got that I was winning there, I think I somehow mentally substituted Chimeric Idol for Golem on my side of the board, because I had "Done the Calculations once for my first deck already and lost, so clearly that means my almost identical deck wins in that one."

So my first deck should be up 6 and my second deck down 18 (unfortunately).

[Wallace]

Would anyone have a problem with me going in and doing some of the match ups myself. I have a little bit of free time and could figure out a few of them so we can get moving on 3CB#11.

[etrigan]

Results posted.

Props:
Tabernacle
Playing against Show and Tell decks

Slops:
Winning with Chimerid Idol
Netdecking whores
Netdecking whores who merge two good decks to make one bad one

[Illissius]

Would anyone have a problem with me going in and doing some of the match ups myself. I have a little bit of free time and could figure out a few of them so we can get moving on 3CB#11.

Go ahead. Twould be appreciated.

[Maveric78f]

Anusien, your 23 deck loses against 16/19/25. Mana burn is life loss that your enchantment can't prevent. You lose life far faster than your factories could make.

[Illissius]

He can use the mana to repeatedly remove zero counters from his storage land.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Sorry it took me so long to get to this, I've been some kind of sick, and by extension, borderline drunk.

Results for Shining Arbor
1 - LL
2 - LL
3 - LL
4 - LL
5 - LL
6 - --
7 - LL
8 - DD
9 - WW
10 - WW
11 - WW
12 - DD
13 - WW
14 - LL
15 - LL
16 - DD
17 - LL
18 - DD
19 - DD
20 - LL
21 - DD
22 - LL
23 - LL
24 - LL
25 - DD
26 - LL
27 - LL
28 - WD

Total points: A resounding 42. Quite the failure.

[georgjorge]

Having a little free time, I calculated 18. Factory, Orzhov, Vindicate for a respectable 104 points.

@Anusien: I think you get one point, not zero, against deck 18 (Factory/Orzhov/Vindicate): If you are on the play, you can drop Energy Field before he can Vindicate your land. He must Vindicate your land then not to lose, and draw.

@Treetop Village/Vineyard/Tabernacle: If I think correctly, Planeswalkers don't have to pay 1 for Tabernacle. Thus, you would lose both games to deck 3 (Lotus/Quicksand/Ajani) instead of winning both, as he would put a 20/20 or something into play on turn 3, an be able to pay it's upkeep.

@Maveric: You have WL against 24 (Reef/Factory/Chalice), as he can put down Chalice on one on the play to prevent Vineyard.



Apart from those, I think all the viable candidates for top places are in, so we might as well call it a day and publish the official Top 5 (or Top 3, or whatever) list...

[Illissius]

@Anusien: I think you get one point, not zero, against deck 18 (Factory/Orzhov/Vindicate): If you are on the play, you can drop Energy Field before he can Vindicate your land. He must Vindicate your land then not to lose, and draw.

"When a card is put into your graveyard, sacrifice Energy Field."


@Treetop Village/Vineyard/Tabernacle: If I think correctly, Planeswalkers don't have to pay 1 for Tabernacle. Thus, you would lose both games to deck 3 (Lotus/Quicksand/Ajani) instead of winning both, as he would put a 20/20 or something into play on turn 3, an be able to pay it's upkeep.

I think this is WL. On the play he can attack Ajani down to three before he can make a token.


@Maveric: You have WL against 24 (Reef/Factory/Chalice), as he can put down Chalice on one on the play to prevent Vineyard.


Seems correct.

[Illissius]

Alright, I went and finished the remaining results. I only filled in the holes at the end, so if the owners of decks #3, #7, #12, #14, #17, and #24 -- T_B, Sanguine Voyeur, technogeek5000, Mordenkain, TheCramp, and Anusien, respectively -- give a shit at all, which they apparently don't, they can double check the rest of their results.

7 vs 14 is some kind of complicated (not sure how it compares with 12 vs 24, the other brainfucker) and I'm too tired for this, so I just left that one as "X". Again, if anyone cares, they can try to figure it out.

[Maveric78f]

12 vs 24 is not really complicated:
- as 12 is not fast enough to race the factory token and once the factory token is into play it can't attack anymore,
- as 24 cannot generate mana with a factory into play, because of the tabernacle upkeep.

They are going to be stuck at this point. So the issue is DD.

7 vs 14 is complicated though. Difficult to have an idea about it. Looks like Stylus can help sometimes, and that 14 cannot lose (it's possible to block every turn without taking any burn from the tabernacle upkp). My intuition tells me that it should be WW for 14, but it's difficult to prove it.

As the 12 vs 24 is a fun game, I imagined what would have been if we replace Dreadship Reef with Saprazzan Cove instead. 12 still cannot win because 24 could stall as well as with Reef, but it can produce mana after generating the first factory generated. Basically, the idea is that player24 will wait until it has enough mana under cove and then he'll create 1 factory each turn, paying the upkeep costs at the same time. Once they are generated, he will attack with everything still paying the upkeep cost.

If t is the number of turns spent by player 24, we have :
player24's life = 4 or 6 for t>9
player12's life = 18+t (the right play is to play mishra first)
Mana inside Cove = t-9

How many factories would 24 need to make an alpha strike in X turns (keeping 1 creature in defense, difficult to decide when exactly stop keeping 1 in defense) where tf is the turn when 12 would die :
damage to be done : 18+tf
damage done by x factories in 1 turn : (x-2)*2 (1 in defense and 1 blocked)
damage done by x factories in x-1 turn (1 is destroyed each turn) : (x-2)*(x-1) + player24's life (no need to keep defense when the life is bigger than the remaining turns*2 of your opponents)
Needed mana to pay the upkeep during all this time : (x-2)*(x-1)/2 (the urza's factory can pay the upkeep too)
Needed mana to generare the factories : 7*x
Needed mana to pay the upkeep during the generation : (x-2)*(x-1)/2 (the last produced one does not need to be paid)

At this stage, it appears that player24 cannot win because the cost is superior to the damage and 1 mana = 1 turn = 1 life.

[Tao]

7 vs. 14 can not be won by the Stylus deck. The other deck has just to play City of Traitors, Epochrasite and block.

[Maveric78f]

Mmm. Right. The tech is not to play the tabernacle. So it's DD.

[Illissius]

7 vs 14 would easily be a draw if the Sites didn't have haste when they came off suspend, because then everyone just blocks, but they do. So they can get a hit in before the other guy unsuspends, which makes all the tactical maneuvering with Tabernacle and Stylus relevant again. Which hurts my brain.

In 12 vs 24, 12 obviously can't win because they can't attack once 24 has the mana to make a token. What 24 can do is charge the Reef at end of turn for the next X turns, where X belongs to the set of tremendously huge numbers, and then for the next Y upkeeps, remove counters from it to make a Factory token while paying for the Tabernacle costs of all the previous tokens. Then, for the next Z turns, alpha strike while losing a token to the other Factory, which is 3/3 on defense (optionally replacing it with a new one next turn, which is even more mana). However, every turn that the Urza's Factory player charges their Reef or attacks, the Mishra's Factory player gains one life from the Valley. So the question is whether the damage from the alpha strikes with the tokens gained from the mana can ever outpace the life gained with the Valley.

It turns out it can, but it took a hell of while before we figured it out. (Can't remember the exact amount of mana in the Reef which we showed is a win, but it was on the order of the hundreds of thousands.)

[Maveric78f]

Illissius stop just saying the contrary to what I've said. Both MUs end with double draw.

7vs14 : no one has anything to win by attacking. Attacking basically gives your opponent a turn. Eventually every player will sit in defense.

12vs24 : I forgot about the instant speed of the factory creation, but even with it it appeared to me it was impossible (cf 2 posts upper).

[georgjorge]

So since it's already been going for two weeks, here the results as based on the Wiki, taking into account that freakish7777, after his own account, has 18 points too many, and Maveric should (probably) have the same amount of points as the other two Vineyard decks.

1st (112): Anusien (deck 23):

Dreadship Reef / Urza's Factory / Energy Field

2nd (111): Cramp (deck 16), Maveric (deck 19), freakish (deck 25):

Vineyard / Tabernacle / Treetop Village

3rd (110): georgjorge (deck 5):

Chimeric Idol / Wheel of torture / Mishra's Workshop

4th (106): freakish (deck 26):

Steel Golem / Wheel of torture / Mishra's Workshop

5th (104): Mordenkain (deck 15), Illisius (deck 27):

Keldon Megaliths / Izzet Boilerworks / Energy Field


The top places are very close to each other, and it seems like the slow decks took it this time (no Lotus at all in the top 5). Congrats to Anusien, and to freakish7777 for placing both of his decks in the top 4.