[Deck] Fetchland Tendrils

[Jaiminho]

I don't see Doomsday as an out for when you can't go IGG via IT+LED or whatever; I see it as a way to dodge hate and opponent's card reuse as if it didn't exist. I don't see how it makes the deck less consistent.

Also, Doomsday lets you win the turn you cast it. It's not like you might cast it anytime just because you can, since you will need a cantrip/draw4/top in order to begin using the top card in order to win immediately. The major con is that it requires too much mana for a right away win.



This is the list I have been testing, I would like suggestions:

(stuff)

Try out Lim-Dul's Vault in the Grim Tutor slots. I've never used Grim Tutor, since I could never have one, so it's more like I don't know how good it is, but LDV + brainstorm/SW let's you fetch 2 cards (in the worst case, LDV becomes Vampiric Tutor; in the usual case, it gets 2 cards). The main problem with LDV is that it gets much worse after you take out SW for Top. I've cut them from my list when I made the switch.

About EtW: I've been there. I couldn't remove it until I saw there were other (better) options, specially when topdecking it costed me games. It's in my SB just in case I need to wish for it, which didn't happen yet.

[Mental]

Doomsday is an awful card to open with in most cases, and lacking a BS you can't get rid of it. It sometimes lets you win the turn you cast it, yeah, but that's conditional.

LDV is card disadvantage. Still, I'd play it before I'd shell out for a GTutor. It's worth testing.

[Jaiminho]

LDV is card disadvantage. Still, I'd play it before I'd shell out for a GTutor. It's worth testing.

So is Mystical and no one questions that. Doomsday is card disadvantage also, BTW. It's not the card disadvantage that makes it not awsome, but the two mana you have to pay, specially that black mana.

[Mental]

So is Mystical and no one questions that. Doomsday is card disadvantage also, BTW. It's not the card disadvantage that makes it not awsome, but the two mana you have to pay, specially that black mana.

Meh, the disadvantage is still crappy, especially when coupled with Doomsday and Mystical. I'm ok with 5 Sources of card disadvantage tutors, not 7 or 8.

[BreathWeapon]

You could replace Mystical for Vault, I doubt it'd be that much slower considering Vault can tutor for LED and gets to set up Brainstorm piles, you're almost guaranteed a third turn kill.

[Mental]

You could replace Mystical for Vault, I doubt it'd be that much slower considering Vault can tutor for LED and gets to set up Brainstorm piles, you're almost guaranteed a third turn kill.

That's an interesting idea, actually. Vault is definitely a more powerful card than Mystical Tutor, however, the fact that MTutor costs no black mana and one less mana, and has no cost in life, is definitely an argument against LDV. LDV may be worth it, however - Though it was pretty fun to bluff entire games as UW Landstill with an awful hand.

[emidln]

I'm going to go ahead and decree the following:

4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Doomsday
1 Death Wish
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-Gotten GAins

are MANDATORY in Fetchland Tendrils. I'll post more about this later, but Doomsday might become a 2-of. This deck no longer even remotely cares about graveyard hate. The standard plan of attack for Leyline is Infernal Tutor + LED into 6 mana with a Top out. This wins the game on the spot with an additional 6 storm + tendrils after infernal tutor (so this should always be lethal).

Dark Rit
Dark Rit
LED
Infernal Tutor (break LED for BBB) -> Doomsday
Doomsday (Cruel Bargain, Lotus Petal, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Tendrils of Agony)
Tap top to draw Bargain, play Bargain (drawing Top, Petal, Rit, Rit)
Petal
Dark Rit
Dark Rit
Top
Tap top to draw Tendrils, play Tendrils with storm of 10.

[No_Life_No_Future]

I was wondering what the matchup percentages look like for this deck.

Also have you tested:
Merchant Scroll<---Im assuming mystical is strictly better here.
Disrupt
Remand
Flash of Insight<---seems like it could work well with iggy and LED but there might not be enough blue cards to make it dig far enough.

[TeKo]

Dark Rit
Dark Rit
LED
Infernal Tutor (break LED for BBB) -> Doomsday
Doomsday (Cruel Bargain, Lotus Petal, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Tendrils of Agony)
Tap top to draw Bargain, play Bargain (drawing Top, Petal, Rit, Rit)
Petal
Dark Rit
Dark Rit
Top
Tap top to draw Tendrils, play Tendrils with storm of 10.

The stack is great, but I thought you play Petal-less :wink:

But without Petal you can do the same, with Mystical (+ Blue mana source) instead of Infernal or direct Doomsday (9 Storm should be lethal)

I want to play:
1 IGG
1 Doomsday
1 Draw4
4 Ponder
4 Top (there are both great as a 4of)
And Petal (not so many people play Stompy/Staxx here, so the tempo boost is very good)
But its a bit difficult to fit all that Stuff in :frown:
maybe I try 15 Lands 3 Petal 1 Tendrils (+1 SB)

[BreathWeapon]

Why is the Death Wish mandatory, does it have anything to do with the Doomsday pile I'm not seeing?

Do you mean a Draw 4 is mandatory?

[emidln]

Death Wish is involved in the easiest way to generate additional storm without a second Doomsday. And yes, a Draw4 would be mandatory.

[nodahero]

Death Wish is mandatory because it opens you up to alot of insane game 1 plays such as fetching a Serenity against Stax or retreiveing your Tendrils should someone go Thoughtseize --> extirpate. These are two very simplistic reasons but those are the two key ones I run into. Not to mention the other plays Emidlin mentioned although I havn't gotten to test Doomsday sufficently to know of its stupid strength outside of vintage.

P.S. would replacing Infernal Bargain/Cruel Bargain with Meditate be a horrid idea?
PRO: Saves half your life and less color intesive
CON: only abuseable on your win turn
PERSONAL VERDICT: Not a likely inclusion although if discard is not rampant and annoying burn decks are I feel it may warrant a switch. That is the case where I play typically.

[matelml]

I don't see why a Deathwish would be necessary, it's not like you always need that extra storm for 3 mana. It looks cool, but I don't think it's good altogether. Against Extirpate you have Chant, or board in something, not play a Wish main. If you play 1 Bounce main, that's more than enough, you don't need to be able to get answers from the board game 1 for half your life, a draw phase and it's normal manacost plus 1UBB. I'm not even sure you need a bounce spell main for game 1, let alone the Wish.

[matelml]

Death Wish is mandatory because it opens you up to alot of insane game 1 plays such as fetching a Serenity against Stax or retreiveing your Tendrils should someone go Thoughtseize --> extirpate. These are two very simplistic reasons but those are the two key ones I run into. Not to mention the other plays Emidlin mentioned although I havn't gotten to test Doomsday sufficently to know of its stupid strength outside of vintage.

How often do you play against Stax, do you need a Serenity, have a Deathwish or Mystical and have the time and resources to do that? Than compare that to the number of times you draw a dead card in other matchups. The Extirpate example is very, very unlikely. I have never even seen a deck with Extirpate and Thoughtseize main and even if your opponent does, he needs both of them AND you need to have ToA at hand without Brainstorm. Are you going to play a card so you don't lose in such cases and just lose from inconsistency in others ?

[nodahero]

@ matelml: I play against at least 1 stax deck every week if not more so yes serenity game 1 is an absolute house otherwise stax typically wins game one. Yes, I do also have the time to do that consistently. Stax isnt exactly the fastest deck in the format. What it does is seriusly cripple our ability to combo out in a remotely timely manner if at all. Death Wish is never ever dead if you are a compitent pilot and you have a good side for what youll be playing that day. I realize that the example I gave is unlikely but in fairness I cannot list every example where Wish would save your ass. Another example would be if you opponent has two mages out one nameing Tendrils and the other nameing Wipeaway you can win either so you wish for either an Empty if you play it or an Echoing Truth. I have only lost one game in my life with a D-Wish in hand and that was when I screwed up comboing out so that was my fault. I assume however that sincer you seem "oh so compitent" about its lack of uses you have tested it extinsively against a good field of decks right?

[emidln]

How often do you play against Stax, do you need a Serenity, have a Deathwish or Mystical and have the time and resources to do that? Than compare that to the number of times you draw a dead card in other matchups. The Extirpate example is very, very unlikely. I have never even seen a deck with Extirpate and Thoughtseize main and even if your opponent does, he needs both of them AND you need to have ToA at hand without Brainstorm. Are you going to play a card so you don't lose in such cases and just lose from inconsistency in others ?

Death Wish is so I can build DDay Stacks like this:

LED
LED
Infernal Tutor
IGG
Death Wish

and generate 8 storm + tendrils from just the doomsday pile (9 if you count the brainstorm that particular stack requires to work). Death Wish fetches me Tendrils in Doomsday stacks quite as bit as I haven't yet moved to 2 Doomsday. That it also brings me Abeyance, Serenity, and Wipe Away has been a fairly big deal in a lot of games.

[BreathWeapon]

Death Wish is so I can build DDay Stacks like this:

LED
LED
Infernal Tutor
IGG
Death Wish

and generate 8 storm + tendrils from just the doomsday pile (9 if you count the brainstorm that particular stack requires to work). Death Wish fetches me Tendrils in Doomsday stacks quite as bit as I haven't yet moved to 2 Doomsday. That it also brings me Abeyance, Serenity, and Wipe Away has been a fairly big deal in a lot of games.

So it's,

A) Dark Ritual and cast Doomsday
B) Doomsday into LED, LED, IT or Brainstorm, IGG, D.Wish
C) Brainstorm into LED, LED, IT or Brainstorm
D) LED, LED, IT into Ill Gotten Gains
E) Ill Gotten Gains for LED, LED, IT or Brainstorm
F) LED, LED, IT or Brainstorm into D.Wish
G) Death Wish for a win condition

That's over 10 storm, and I don't see how it adds to the pile, it's just a 1BB mana + 50% life for +1 storm investment.

Edit: Remember that Brainstorm is = to Infernal Tutor, if the deck has the U mana open, then it's more efficient.

Edit: Cutting Lotus Petal is pointless, their U mana production is essential for cutting the mana cost of the Doomsday stacks with Brainstorm instead of Infernal Tutor wherever possible.

Off Topic,

Lim Dul's Vault seems a lot better than Mystical Tutor, being able to tutor for Lion's Eye Diamond and Serenity is ridiculous, and if you run 4c, being able to tutor for Vexing Shusher is just straight up broken. For that matter, being able to Wish for Vexing Shusher is also retarded, mana/life loss aside, Control is just fucked if Death Wish resolves.

[emidln]

I'm playing and testing the following build right now. I'll figure out whether or not I like being with Death Wish in the main and how much I miss my extra basic lands. It has my 17 lands main with a petal to support winning with infernal tutor into doomsday.

//May 02, 2008
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Mystical Tutor
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Cruel Bargain
2 Doomsday
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
2 Tendrils of Agony

4 Orim's Chant
1 Wipe Away

SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 2 Abeyance
SB: 1 Wipe Away
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Rushing River
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Massacre
SB: 1 Death Wish
SB: 4 Serenity
SB: 1 Tropical Island

[Jaiminho]

What's the reason behind these choices?

- 2nd Underground Sea
- 2nd Doomsday
- 4th Chant over 4th Ponder

I'll be trying this (compared to yours):

MD (15 lands, 8 cantrips + 4 tops, 3 petals):
+1 Island
+2 Lotus Petal
+1 Death Wish
+1 Ponder
-1 Underground Sea
-1 Tundra
-1 Tropical Island
-1 Doomsday

SB:
+1 Tendrils of Agony
+3 Dark Confidant
+1 Orim's Chant
-1 Extirpate
-1 Krosan Grip
-1 Massacre
-1 Death Wish
-1 Tropical Island

(Meta ("up to" numbers): 1 Suicide, 3 Pikula, 2 Thresh, 1 Breakfast, 1 TES, 1 Solidarity, 2 Dragon/Faerie Stompy)

I don't want to run 3 petals, but I also don't want to lose their explosiveness. I can't figure what to do with those slots, while keeping the mana count at 17+.

I need someone to test at MWS... anyone? PM me.

[emidln]

What's the reason behind these choices?

[quote]- 2nd Underground Sea

I felt having extra black was worth trying out, especially given that it's very easy to win with Doomsday after Infernal Tutor by casting Cruel Bargain. I wanted to make sure that this is possible whenever I have Top.


- 2nd Doomsday

Doomsday into Doomsday generates a guaranteed 9 spells + Tendrils.


4th Chant over 4th Ponder

Chant is the most important card against control, and many times I need to cast 2-3 of them just to get one of them to resolve. The more I have, the easier this is. Chant is never really dead (given that it is Time Walk) so I run the 4th.

I don't think Confidant is necessary with Top in the deck.

[Ray.N]

I really haven't found a need to play Death Wish in the main. Most decks around here don't run extirpate main, and I haven't been able to consistently use Death Wish and the spell I get with it in the same turn, which is what I usually want to do. I do like the idea of Doomsday though. Death wish in my opinion is much more fit for the sideboard to combat extirpates game two and three.

Emidln, in your latest list, is there a reason for two Doomsday? I don't really see a reason to run more than one for an Infernal tutor target.

[BreathWeapon]

It's not like drawing into or top decking Doomsday is bad or anything, you can just hard cast it and then untap and win on the following turn vs most decks, I'd consider running a set and then trimming down from there.

[Jaiminho]

I don't think Confidant is necessary with Top in the deck.

I'd think that Confidant only gets better with Top. The thing is that I used to take out SW for Bobs to come in and now that Tops are in SW's slots, it gets harder to sideout things for hate against discard + leyline/planar void. Maybe taking out the Chants, even though turn 1 time walking or casting it in response to a Dark Ritual is too nice.

[dlevsApiJ]

I have to say the Doomsday looks pretty cool/nice.

I was thinking of playing 1 Tombstalker SB, against discard or control, when you are in topdeck mode (Topdeck Tutor -> Wish -> Tombstalker). Or when you just cant get enough storm to kill the opponent.

[Happy Gilmore]

I have to say the Doomsday looks pretty cool/nice.

I was thinking of playing 1 Tombstalker SB, against discard or control, when you are in topdeck mode (Topdeck Tutor -> Wish -> Tombstalker). Or when you just cant get enough storm to kill the opponent.

In that case you should not have tried to go off.

[Cait_Sith]

I don't think Confidant is necessary with Top in the deck.

Honestly, I find that Confidant has possible SB uses (if you run into a lot of permission in your area), but, overall, I have to agree. MD it does little overall, since this deck doesn't need huge numbers of cards, just a small number of specific ones. Between the tutors and Fetch-Tops, finding the individual pieces should not be too difficult a problem.

[BreathWeapon]

Ok, are other people getting the shit kicked out of them by Meddling Mage? I'm starting to get to the point where I think you need an alternate threat + LED combination other than Infernal Tutor, either Death Wish or Doomsday, and an alternate win condition, Empty the Warrens obv., in the MD just so you don't have to tutor for Wipe Away every time Meddling Mage hits the board. The deck is getting way too linear and it's too easy for /w aggro control to exploit it with those damn meddling kids and their dog.

As an aside, Lim Dul's Vault has been a fucking house, I get a hard on every time I stack Brainstorm, Orim's Chant and Lion's Eye Diamond. Being able to tutor for LED and gaining virtual card advantage by setting up the top of your deck is totally worth being a turn slower (if that). It's also significantly harder for your opponent to counter Lim Dul's Vault than Mystical Tutor with Counterbalance, so you've actually got a reasonable shot of getting to Wipe Away.

[emidln]

Ok, are other people getting the shit kicked out of them by Meddling Mage? I'm starting to get to the point where I think you need an alternate threat + LED combination other than Infernal Tutor, either Death Wish or Doomsday, and an alternate win condition, Empty the Warrens obv., in the MD just so you don't have to tutor for Wipe Away every time Meddling Mage hits the board. The deck is getting way too linear and it's too easy for /w aggro control to exploit it with those damn meddling kids and their dog.

I haven't had any trouble with 1-2 Meddling Mage. Postboard I rarely have any issues with Meddling Mage, although I have a tendency to be paranoid enough to always board like my opponent has Mages.

[Mental]

EmidIn, would you suggest the "mandatory" changes you've made in a mainly aggro meta with some thresh and very little control? Personally, I found SW very strong in my meta, and SDT a little clunky against things like Dragon Stompy/Ichorid. Doomsday has been solid as a 1 of, and I think that I'm comfortable cutting a second IGG for a second Doomsday, however, is that even worth it if running SDT isn't?

[emidln]

EmidIn, would you suggest the "mandatory" changes you've made in a mainly aggro meta with some thresh and very little control? Personally, I found SW very strong in my meta, and SDT a little clunky against things like Dragon Stompy/Ichorid. Doomsday has been solid as a 1 of, and I think that I'm comfortable cutting a second IGG for a second Doomsday, however, is that even worth it if running SDT isn't?

The biggest reason to run Doomsday is the protection from graveyard hate when you run SDT. It enables you to completely ignore graveyard hate any time you resolve a SDT. I rarely cast IGG anymore because I always have 6 mana and a SDT post-infernal tutor.

Against Dragon Stompy, SDT is very strong since it can be cast off red mana to help dig for basics or petals (if you play them). Against discard, SDT lets you pratically ignore their hand hate as you're still sculpting what you need to kill them. Against anything else it reads pay 1, then U, then U again, put two instants or sorceries in your hand (these costs can be paid on three consecutive turns, or all at once).

As a note, I went -1 Doomsday, -1 Mystical Tutor, +2 LDV to evaluate whether or not I like the card. So far, it seems okay against Stax (haven't played against anything else), although my manabase is too aggressive to properly support even two right now. To play 2-3 I need to rethink my colored mana ratios.

[Mental]

Honestly, I just tested the new version against DStompy and got crushed. Game 1 he goes first and drops Chalice@1. I can't SDT or Ponder, and he drops RPDragon. Then he Seething Songs, Jitte, Win.

Game 2 I go first and drop Top. He play 3Sphere and I don't have a Mystical in Response. Then he play Chalice @1 the next turn, then Gathan Raiders.

This MU seemed close to unwinnable preboard.

Basically, the faster version was better in the Dragon Stompy MU.

[Shriekmaw]

I didn't really want to get into an argument over the new version, but it seems very slow compared to the original list. I just believe you give up too much in order for consistency. This is a combo deck and should stay that way.

Honestly, Sensei's Divining Top does not belong in a combo deck where you want to win as fast as possible. Its just too mana heavy in a deck that doesn't run enough lands to fully utilize it. You already run cards such as mystical tutor, brainstorm, ponder, and street wraiths in order to draw cards necessary to win.

Here is the Iggy Pop list that I've been running to good success so far.

IGGY POP

4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Scrubland
1 Tundra
1 Plains
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Brainstorm
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Street Wraith
4 Orim’s Chant
3 Ill-Gotten Gains
2 Tendrils of Agony
2 Ponder
1 Infernal Contract
1 Echoing Truth

SB

1 Wipe Away
1 Echoing Truth
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
2 Extirpate
2 Abeyance
3 Krosan Grip
4 Leyline of the Void

[emidln]

I didn't really want to get into an argument over the new version, but it seems very slow compared to the original list. I just believe you give up too much in order for consistency. This is a combo deck and should stay that way.

There is nothing that isn't comboish about my new list. I can still combo out early against aggro (and sometimes against control given the right hand and appropriate signals from my opponent), but more match wins are generated by waiting until I know that I can win through countermagic than simply hoping they don't have more than one Force of Will and one Daze.


Honestly, Sensei's Divining Top does not belong in a combo deck where you want to win as fast as possible. Its just too mana heavy in a deck that doesn't run enough lands to fully utilize it. You already run cards such as mystical tutor, brainstorm, ponder, and street wraiths in order to draw cards necessary to win.

Nothing kills you before turn 4 except decks that are susceptible to Orim's Chant and Abeyance. This means the turn 3-4 goldfish that the SDT version normally has sufficient to race the metagame, while being consistent, and even considering that it plays as the control deck in the combo mirror. Street Wraith isn't run in the SDT versions as SDT does nearly the same thing as Street Wraith while allowing for better mana utilization until the combo turn. Paying 1 colorless at some point before you cast Mystical Tutor has actually proven better than paying 2 life the turn that you play Mystical Tutor in my testing. It has allowed me to essentially keep extra cards in hand for my combo turn, even after using LED. I think the issue that some people are having with SDT is that they are activating it every turn instead of doing other stuff. When I've been playing it, I only activate the look at top 3 ability when I am digging for land or have spare mana that I wouldn't otherwise use. To me it's pay 1, then draw a card later with a nice bonus.

[GreenOne]

I didn't really want to get into an argument over the new version, but it seems very slow compared to the original list. I just believe you give up too much in order for consistency. This is a combo deck and should stay that way.


I did not test (yet) Doomsday in the deck, but without it I found the SDT underwhelming too. Maybe that (as emidln said) I'm playing them the wrong way, but I found them a problem when facing fast aggro (Burn, Goyf Sligh, Domain Zoo and partially goblins, etc).
The main problem that I face when playing a 1-petal 0-Wraith deck is that i can't reach threshold fast enough. And between Death Wish, Draw 4s and Doomsdays if the opponent is playing some burn it could happen that we have to chant him in order to do stuff in our turn.

Long story short, the deck is gaining an advantage vs control and aggrocontrol, but it's losing part of its speed. Someone says that the deck is too much LED dependant, but the way the deck was built (less lands, street wraiths, petals) the deck could easily combo out with cabal ritual, depleting its entire hand and going hellbent for IT on turn 3.
Obv this means it was more grave dependant, but we had plenty of ways to work out the grave hate (Beatdown plan, double tendrils, ETW, bounce, Abeyance, Serenity).

Are the SDT+lands-petals changes worth it or are them just a meta choice?

I love those cards, but are the Doomsday and LDV worth it or just the danger of cool things?

The deck is changing a lot and too rapidly, we probably need a good testing session, including the aggro decks again.

PS. Emidln, would you please post the latest list? I'd like to have some testing once I got some spare time.

[BreathWeapon]

I haven't been impressed with the Lotus Petal(less) and Sensei's Divining Top lists at all, the entire deck gets run over by Goblin Lackey a lot, and slowing down to turn 4 doesn't improve the control aggro/control match ups enough to warrant weakening the Goblins match up. The control decks will just adapt to bring in permanent based hate and then use the additional turns for building a counter wall to protect them.

I am beating the living shit out of these lists with every Tier 1/Tier 1.5 blue deck except Landstill, maybe it's on account of having an intimate knowledge of Storm combo, but I seriously think you guys need to figure out that you can't just play some LED based control deck past turn 3. People are too paranoid about counter walls, it's the Counterbalances, Meddling Mages, Gaddock Teegs, Trinisphere, Chalice of the Void and Arcane Laboratories that are going to kill you.

[emidln]

I am beating the living shit out of these lists with every Tier 1/Tier 1.5 blue deck except Landstill, maybe it's on account of having an intimate knowledge of Storm combo, but I seriously think you guys need to figure out that you can't just play some LED based control deck past turn 3. People are too paranoid about counter walls, it's the Counterbalances, Meddling Mages, Gaddock Teegs, Trinisphere, Chalice of the Void and Arcane Laboratories that are going to kill you.

That's funny, I beat every Tier 1/1.5 blue deck including landstill with my Doomsday list. Perhaps it's something to do with knowing the ins and outs of my deck, as well as knowing what decks can field what hate and boarding appropriately. Maybe it's mulliganing decisions. Perhaps it's incredibly luck over a few hundred games. In any event, I have no issue at all with Mage, Teeg, 3sphere, Chalice, CB, or any other permanent-basd hate. I'd suggest learning the deck better because without specific scenarios I can't really recommend anything else.

Beating lackey isn't hard at all. It's even less of an issue on the draw than on the play because you know from the outset to play more aggressively. Doomsday can win very fast if it knows there is no counter-based hate, and setting up Infernal + LED has never been very difficult.

As a side note, if anyone who thinks their control deck has a good FT matchup would like to play me, I'd be happy dissuade them of their delusions over MWS.

[Jak]

I would like to see this done. I don't want to sound rude because I know that you are an awesome player, but I just don't see this deck being able to beat all the shit in the world. I playtested one game against DS and dropped a fetch, he goes first turn blood moon. I then have only a blue source the rest of the game. I fail to see how you have the awesome MUs. I would love for you to prove me wrong though, so I really want to see Threshold and Landstill go against this. I just think it is about the same as TES.

[Mental]

I would like to see this done. I don't want to sound rude because I know that you are an awesome player, but I just don't see this deck being able to beat all the shit in the world. I playtested one game against DS and dropped a fetch, he goes first turn blood moon. I then have only a blue source the rest of the game. I fail to see how you have the awesome MUs. I would love for you to prove me wrong though, so I really want to see Threshold and Landstill go against this. I just think it is about the same as TES.

I don't agree with most of EmidIns changes, but I have to say DS isn't a hard MU. In the faster version, at least, you just go turn 1 Chant them, Turn 2 win. Alternatively, Mystical Tutor --> Death Wish --> Serenity or Mystical Tutor --> Wipe Away works.

I've went back up to a 3/1 Petal/Fetch Split. Petals add so much to this deck, giving you Thresh for Cabal Rit, fixing mana, and building Storm. However, I like 15 lands more than I like 14.

I've cut top for Street Wraith. Threshold is just so strong in this deck, as is going off early in a lot of MUs. That's why I play 4 BS, 4 Ponder, and 4 Wraith.

I'm still running 1 Doomsday/1 IGG. This was the good thing that came out of these changes for me - realizing that this deck could function with one IGG. I like Doomsday more as an alternative wincon than building the deck around it (or even, semi-around it).

[Jaiminho]

I did not test (yet) Doomsday in the deck, but without it I found the SDT underwhelming too. Maybe that (as emidln said) I'm playing them the wrong way, but I found them a problem when facing fast aggro (Burn, Goyf Sligh, Domain Zoo and partially goblins, etc).

SDT usually should never be played over a better and more effect cantrip, since it will cost you some speed. On extremely fast games, it might just be a bad SW or a non-shuffling Ponder, but it will allow you to go off with Doomsday in case you really need. Against aggro you play like Iggy Pop, anyway.


I love those cards, but are the Doomsday and LDV worth it or just the danger of cool things?

As I said already, SW/Ponder/Draw4/Brainstorm made LDV a pretty awsome tutor. SDT doesn't help as much as SW, but you still can get two cards from that pile, which is usually your goal, and win off immediately. The deck's redundancy is the key for this card to work. I'll try to fit those 2 in the deck again and see what happens.


emidln, how was your LDV testing?

[Jak]

I don't agree with most of EmidIns changes, but I have to say DS isn't a hard MU. In the faster version, at least, you just go turn 1 Chant them, Turn 2 win. Alternatively, Mystical Tutor --> Death Wish --> Serenity or Mystical Tutor --> Wipe Away works.

I've went back up to a 3/1 Petal/Fetch Split. Petals add so much to this deck, giving you Thresh for Cabal Rit, fixing mana, and building Storm. However, I like 15 lands more than I like 14.

I've cut top for Street Wraith. Threshold is just so strong in this deck, as is going off early in a lot of MUs. That's why I play 4 BS, 4 Ponder, and 4 Wraith.

I'm still running 1 Doomsday/1 IGG. This was the good thing that came out of these changes for me - realizing that this deck could function with one IGG. I like Doomsday more as an alternative wincon than building the deck around it (or even, semi-around it).


That was just an example from the one time I played it. Getting screwed like that happens. I just think he is overrating his deck.

[emidln]

SDT usually should never be played over a better and more effect cantrip, since it will cost you some speed. On extremely fast games, it might just be a bad SW or a non-shuffling Ponder, but it will allow you to go off with Doomsday in case you really need. Against aggro you play like Iggy Pop, anyway.

All you really need to do against aggro is get Doomsday and LED in hand, and Sensei's Top on the table with mana to cast Doomsday and you win the game. It's pretty simple actually, and completely ignores Leyline. I turn turn 2 like this frequently.


emidln, how was your LDV testing?

It's been okay. Like, it's not visibly better or worse than Mystical Tutor across the board. I don't know if I would want more than 2 of them, and I think I really want my 4th Mystical back.

[Jaiminho]

All you really need to do against aggro is get Doomsday and LED in hand, and Sensei's Top on the table with mana to cast Doomsday and you win the game. It's pretty simple actually, and completely ignores Leyline. I turn turn 2 like this frequently.

You only need Doomsday if you see some hate, but, still, yes, Doomsday > IGG. BTW, what I said about SDT is valid on the fast aggro match up only.


It's been okay. Like, it's not visibly better or worse than Mystical Tutor across the board. I don't know if I would want more than 2 of them, and I think I really want my 4th Mystical back.

I'm replacing the 4th Ponder and what would be Doomsday 2 or IGG 2 for 2 LDV.

[GreenOne]

Is doomsday worth running in a 0 SDT version?

[Mental]

Is doomsday worth running in a 0 SDT version?

In my experience, it's still strong. SW can do the same thing when going off a lot of the time, and serve the same function in DDay piles.

I wouldn't run 2 Doomsday though, probably 1 is stronger.

[emidln]

You only need Doomsday if you see some hate, but, still, yes, Doomsday > IGG. BTW, what I said about SDT is valid on the fast aggro match up only.

No, Doomsday is good without hate. It's an instant win if you can cast it, have top, and then have 3 black left. You just flat out win the game. It's really easy to setup against aggro, which is why I mentioned it.




I'm replacing the 4th Ponder and what would be Doomsday 2 or IGG 2 for 2 LDV.

That was the list I was testing. I was playing 1 IGG, 1 DDay, 3 Ponder, 2 LDV, 2 Tendrils, 4 Top.

@ GreenOne

I'm not sure I would run Doomsday without Top. Top makes a lot of the ridiculous come from nowhere wins possible, and it's an extra storm engine to win with a single Doomsday without recurring it. It also enables a lot of the really stupid stuff like Infernal -> Doomsday.

[Ozymandias]

So what beats this deck anyway? It seems like you guys have an answer from everything from Thresh to Dstompy to MUC to TES.

[jegger]

Greeone expresses my thoughts exactly.

I don't test yet Doomsday in the deck, because I will not go for a while to any tournament and I want to test well the version with SDT before.
In my meta I've seen that the format is slow down: many Landstill in top16. In this direction SDT is a great addon and an advantage for the deck because I can sit down on sensei+fetch for card quality with an indestructible manabase against opponent's wastelands without so many pressure on my life points.
The disavantage is that SW can give to the deck a little bit speed against fast decks like aggro, ichorid & combo with its interaction at CC0 with mystical and a fast threshold for cabal ritual.
I'm seeing if the tradeoff SDT vs SW is good enough in these days.

I'm still playing with petals maindeck, but I'm trying also the version with 17-lands, without Petals. This is a further improvement against landstill because I don't play a suboptimal card like Petal against this matchup and I can play finally Mystic Remora in SB also in Legacy. :smile:
Without Petal the disavantages are against fast decks, I'm not sure that the tradeoff in this case is so good. Petals helps to rip the match, fast threshold,...At this point I build a threshold with cantrip, CB, LED, rituals, ToA and tutors. naah, I want a fast deck, with these changes we risk to slow down to much the deck and we haven't in every matchup an Orim in hand to steal a turn.

I've seen that the worst hate, we can meet, is Orim's Chant. What are your answers? Extirpate on first opponent's Chant And then my Chant ftw?
I'm thinking to insert again Pacts in SB, but perhaps Extirpate is more versatile, Pact is dead if we don't start the combo.


As a side note, if anyone who thinks their control deck has a good FT matchup would like to play me, I'd be happy dissuade them of their delusions over MWS.
If you want, my Solution deck is waiting for a matchup with you. :tongue:


The deck is changing a lot and too rapidly, we probably need a good testing session, including the aggro decks again.

I'm also thinking the same. I'm a conservative player. :tongue:


So what beats this deck anyway? It seems like you guys have an answer from everything from Thresh to Dstompy to MUC to TES.

Yeah, I'm asking to me if you play against goofy.:tongue:
Or I'm a bad player (probably) because I lose some matchups with this deck.

[GreenOne]

So what beats this deck anyway? It seems like you guys have an answer from everything from Thresh to Dstompy to MUC to TES.

Itnot like the deck is winning versus everything. It just have a chance against everything like Threshold decks do. Sure, threshold is not a positive machup, but you can get close to an ok percentage like 40% win. It's not that bad for your bad matchups isn't it? :)

It obvioulsy depends a lot on the playskill of both players however. That's why I don't like much matchup analysys done with % numbers.

[Mental]

Itnot like the deck is winning versus everything. It just have a chance against everything like Threshold decks do. Sure, threshold is not a positive machup, but you can get close to an ok percentage like 40% win. It's not that bad for your bad matchups isn't it? :)

It obvioulsy depends a lot on the playskill of both players however. That's why I don't like much matchup analysys done with % numbers.

Not true. Thrash is about even, because they only run FoW to stop Chant.

CB Thresh isn't even that bad, unless it's UBG.

EDIT: But Top helps that.

I just tested with EmidIn and came away thoroughly convinced that his new list is strong. It can easily race Aggro - he stomped me playing Goblins, going off a turn before I could win consistently, without having to use Chant, and we went 1-1 when I played UGR Thrash. The time he lost was because of a mistake (I guess that we all make them).

[Muradin]

So actually I am really attracted to this deck as I like playing combo in general and there is a lot of discussion with innovations in this thread. So before building it I'd like to have a "stable list" to test with, so that I can make sure I am able to pilot the deck. Is the version with Senseis Divining Top and Doomsday the general accepted one or is this just something very cool you are trying out?

Then I still have some questions:
(Why) is Death Dish good in this deck?
When do I board Extirpate in?(Except against Ichorid for example)
What is the Doomsday pile winning against graveyard hate?
Why are 2 Doomsday needed?
Until now I didn't like Cabal Ritual very much in the newer builds as I often couldn't get 7 cards in my graveyard by the time I tried to go of, am I just playing it wrong?

[emidln]

So actually I am really attracted to this deck as I like playing combo in general and there is a lot of discussion with innovations in this thread. So before building it I'd like to have a "stable list" to test with, so that I can make sure I am able to pilot the deck. Is the version with Senseis Divining Top and Doomsday the general accepted one or is this just something very cool you are trying out?

I'm playing it. I'd recommend that you do, but I won't show up at your house with a weapon and command that you do too.


(Why) is Death Dish good in this deck?

Opponents have a nasty habit of RFGing things that we don't want them to. As tricksy of an animal as the opponent is, Death Wish is our super trick for beating them. Interestingly enough, Death Wish can also find stuff like Extirpate, Abeyance, Krosan Grip, Wipe Away, and Serenity g1 when you might need it.


When do I board Extirpate in?(Except against Ichorid for example)

Except against the obvious graveyard-based combo like Ichorid, it's really good against countermagic and chant effects. This means you'll be boarding them in about every non-aggro matchup.


What is the Doomsday pile winning against graveyard hate?

There are several. My favorite is designed for use as a target for Infernal Tutor (with a Sensei's Divining Top and at least BBB after Doomsday for a total of BBBBBB after paying for your hellbent Infernal Tutor):

Cruel Bargain
Lotus Petal
LED
LED
Tendrils

You need at least 4 life before you cast Doomsday to pull this off. If you have at least 8 life, and an extra mana (so 1BBB instead of BBB) you may substitute Death Wish for Tendrils in the pile and find an RFG'd Tendrils of Agony. This also adds more storm. If your LEDs gone, you can use Dark Rituals in their place. If you have 2BBB available after casting Doomsday, you can substitute a Sensei's Divining Top for an LED and generate a couple extra storm by cycling Sensei's Divining Tops a few times.


Why are 2 Doomsday needed?

They're not, but I like the extra one. With two copies, you can actually put Doomsday in your Doomsday pile to generate extra storm if you set it up correctly. This lets you cast Doomsday again generating an extra 5 storm without using the graveyard.


Until now I didn't like Cabal Ritual very much in the newer builds as I often couldn't get 7 cards in my graveyard by the time I tried to go of, am I just playing it wrong?

Probably. I never have an issue with Threshold. Other people claim to (have problems) as well, so it could be that I am just incredibly lucky. I have no idea what is going on, but I can say that I personally do not have problems with Threshold.

[MattH]

No, Doomsday is good without hate. It's an instant win if you can cast it, have top, and then have 3 black left. You just flat out win the game. It's really easy to setup against aggro, which is why I mentioned it.

Can you explain this kill? I'm guessing you:
1. play Doomsday
top into Contract/Bargain
2. play Contract/Bargain, drawing top, petal, LED, LED
3. play petal. break it to
4. play Top
5 & 6 play LEDs
break them for six black, top into Tendrils
7. play Tendrils

Where's the other three storm coming from? Are you assuming some sort of rituals and casting of Top prior to Doomsday?

Also, can you explain your 'favorite kill with Infernal Tutor'? I'm guessing you IT revealing a Ritual for a second Ritual, then play both Rituals to get to BBB BBB and three storm and proceed from the Doomsday step above. But that means you (a) had 1BBB without using the Ritual you reveal to IT, or (b) play the IT turn two and on turn three find one extra storm somewhere...so I'm not really sure what's going on.

[emidln]

Can you explain this kill? I'm guessing you:
1. play Doomsday
top into Contract/Bargain
2. play Contract/Bargain, drawing top, petal, LED, LED
3. play petal. break it to
4. play Top
5 & 6 play LEDs
break them for six black, top into Tendrils
7. play Tendrils

Where's the other three storm coming from? Are you assuming some sort of rituals and casting of Top prior to Doomsday?

Also, can you explain the kill "with Infernal Tutor"? I'm guessing you IT revealing a Ritual for a second Ritual, then play both Rituals to get to BBB BBB and three storm and proceed from the Doomsday step above.

As BBB is nearly impossible to get from the manabase, I'm assuming you play some other spells. Usually those spells are a combination of Mystical Tutor, LED, Chant, and Ritual, although there any way that lets you have a top on table and a total of six black is fine. The way to do it with Infernal Tutor is pretty similar to the IGG really. You combo normally playing rituals into an Infernal Tutor with hellbent. Instead of needing at least 5 mana to win the game, Doomsday requires 6, but has the advantages of not being vulnerable to Leyline, Crypt, etc and generating more storm. So with BBBBBB in your pool you find Doomsday, and then play from above.

[someone_unimportant]

I'm confused as to how putting Doomsday in a Doomsday pile is going to add 5 storm without using the graveyard. Presuming that you have to cast the other 4 cards in your pile, can't the opponent just Crypt the spells that you have cast? You no longer have a 60-card library to make DD piles, just your hand (which may or may not be 0 cards, depending on LEDs)

That being said, the graveyard-independent kill of a single DD is sick. I used to play old IGG, and Leyline was actually extremely annoying. Also, I have one more question: why Serenity instead of Hurkyl's Recall? Just speaking from the point of view of Vintage Long, against Stax all you would do was wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, EOT Hurkyl's, win. Hurkyl's is also tutorable via Mystical.

[Mental]

I'm confused as to how putting Doomsday in a Doomsday pile is going to add 5 storm without using the graveyard. Presuming that you have to cast the other 4 cards in your pile, can't the opponent just Crypt the spells that you have cast? You no longer have a 60-card library to make DD piles, just your hand (which may or may not be 0 cards, depending on LEDs)

That being said, the graveyard-independent kill of a single DD is sick. I used to play old IGG, and Leyline was actually extremely annoying. Also, I have one more question: why Serenity instead of Hurkyl's Recall? Just speaking from the point of view of Vintage Long, against Stax all you would do was wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, EOT Hurkyl's, win. Hurkyl's is also tutorable via Mystical.

I'm not sure either one is better. I just like the permanent solution that Serenity offers.

I also don't understand the Double Doomsday thing, but that's because I've never needed to use it. Normally one Doomsday generates enough storm, if you've played a few accelerants and a protection spell, to end the game. I assume it's a fairly complex and situational kill.

[Jaiminho]

Also, I have one more question: why Serenity instead of Hurkyl's Recall? Just speaking from the point of view of Vintage Long, against Stax all you would do was wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, EOT Hurkyl's, win. Hurkyl's is also tutorable via Mystical.

Legacy Stax is aggressive. You can't afford to stand behind their own artifacts while drawing whatever you want (remember your setup will be locked under Chalice or Trinisphere), since there will be some factories, magi and angels beating you ass in the meantime. If not winning the game in the next turn (which is the purpous of Recall), you can cast a Serenity to break the other side of the table in order to unlock your setup spells to win shortly after. Also, if you'd use a bounce spell, it would be Rebuild, not Hurkyl's Recall, since you'd be able to trample that Chalice @ 2. Rushing River already deals with that, anyway.

[Dark_Cynic87]

Stax really isn't that big of a challenge, honestly. Trinisphere is what you should be scared of. At the first sign of stax what you should do is be looking for wipe away, or if they get an extremely agressive hand, you should look for Death Wish for a Rushing River.

I really think you guys aren't playing this right, at least to some extent. Top is a great new development. I disagree with a choice of emidln's. This is leaving the Death Wish in the board. That seems rediculous to me. However, I play in a different metagame, and if he knows his well enough to do without it game one, props to him. I do think that double DD is a decent choice, as you can still pop LED in response to a IT and still get a Doomsday if it is in your hand (something I have repeatedly run into in the very short time I've tested this; might just be my bad luck, though). You still have Brainstorms to get it out of your hand, and Tops to keep from running into it. I think I just had bad luck. I'm still testing a singleton, but I love it. I'm thinking of dumping Ill-Gotten Gains completely. It's been COMPLETELY irrelevent for me.

Earlier posts I saw someone say something along the lines of them actually "having to use a Chant effect during my own turn". This is what I mean when I say you guys might not be playing it effectively. Chant effects were put in here almost soley for this purpose, and then testing showed that they worked like time walks on most occasions. Against stuff like stax and non-counter lists, it's very much a bonus. That's why they are easily maindecked. However, their main purpose is to succeed in an undisrupted kill-turn.

I also read that someone said that combo is supposed to win as fast as possible. This is the kind of thinking that makes you play sloppy. If you want balls-to-the-wall combo speed, go play SI. This, as mentioned previously throughout the thread, is basically thresh with a combo kill. It's not to combo off as soon as possible. It's playing mindgames with your opponent. Bait out counters and other chants. Control the relevent aspects of the board while sculpting your hand, and go off protected. It's just that easy. Sacrificing speed for consistancy is completely acceptable, especially if, as emidln has pointed out, you still consistantly combo off before any other list available, unless it's balls-to-the-wall combo, and in this aspect, as emidln has also pointed out, you act as the control aspect. Against SI, you run chants. You run Extirpate (good on draw-4s, etc.). You should win. If you don't, I suggest practicing more.

This list is the MOST evolving archetype in Legacy, and I even daresay all of magic. Go and look at IGGY POP lists from a year ago. They are drastically different. That was combo.

This is combo-control: The end of evolution. Eventually it's what will rule legacy.

Pce,

--DC

[spider900]

So what is your list right now? Seems like you've got a lot of expierence with it.

[BreathWeapon]

Until FT uses Force of Will it is not combo-control, the deck still needs to be fast enough to reduce the amount of disruption it has to face, or adding disruption, tutors and cantrips of its own is just a tremendous mana/tempo sink in an attempt to retain parody.

FT isn't evolving, it's being indecisive. People need to stop and decide what the deck should be aimed at doing and what it actually needs to do IRL,

4 Doomsday
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Infernal Contract
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Lim Dul's Vault
1 Wipe Away
4 Brainstorm
4 Orim's Chant

4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
1 Island

Is one direction I believe "FT" should consider, because if you're going to slow down a turn for Sensei's Divining Top, you may as well concentrate on winning via Doomsday on turn 3 and consider Infernal Tutor your auxillery "Oops, I win" threat.

I'm about 99% certain that Vault > Mystical, because Mystical conflicts with the rest of the 1 drops and being able to tutor thru' Counterbalance and Chalice of the Void at 1 has been critical in its worst match ups.

This "Threshold with Tendrils!" argument needs to stop, because it's bull shit. You can go that route against Landstill or BAD Threshold, but when this deck runs into Balance/Top Cephalid, Balance/Top Dreadnought, Faerie Stompy, AfFOWnity or any control or aggro-control player willing to dedicate MD/SB slots to permanent hate for the combo match up, you are going to be in for a world of hurt.

Don't get me wrong, I like FT, I want to see FT succeed, but stop circle jerking and start taking a realistic look at the deck's problems against competent control or aggro-control or even the rare aggro-control-combo players (aka your worst nightmare) that are prepared for the match up. You'll find that despite all of your disruption, bounce, tutors and cantrips that speed is still, and will always be, your most valuable asset.

[arsenalpow]

If the deck is going to focus on a turn 3 Doomsday kill, what would be the typical stack you would set up after resolving DD.

[Jaiminho]

FT isn't evolving, it's being indecisive. People need to stop and decide what the deck should be aimed at doing and what it actually needs to do IRL,

It's aimed at winning over any kind of hate while maintaining the same style of play. That's the idea of every deck, actually, and this one is doing quite well at it.



4 Lim Dul's Vault
0 Mystical Tutor

I'd not run those many Vaults, since they are slow. You have only 15 lands, and that probably slows you down too much.



4 Doomsday

This deck stopped using 4 Ill-Gotten Gains a long time ago. Why the hell would you want to go back there, just replacing it with another gimme-more-storm card?

Also, the best way to achieve mana for the kill is by accelerating with LED in response to a draw or a tutor. You can't do that if that card is in your hand. I'd say you have limitations here.



0 Ponder

This is just wrong... Why do you think the deck is consistent as hell? Because it plays with the library. Do I need to say the advantages of Ponder and the synergy it has with some cards in the deck?



You'll find that despite all of your disruption, bounce, tutors and cantrips that speed is still, and will always be, your most valuable asset.

Gotta disagree here. I mean... I totally disagree with this. You sound like me when I first picked Iggy Pop and didn't like the (good) changes that were turning the deck into Grim Iggy (which would finally lead to a Grim Tutorless deck called Fetchland Tendrils).



If the deck is going to focus on a turn 3 Doomsday kill, what would be the typical stack you would set up after resolving DD.

This has been posted over and over, but anyway... This is the most common pile, requiring 4 life before it all and BBB after casting Doomsday and a top on the table:

Draw4
Petal
LED
LED
Tendrils

Tap Top for Draw4, empty your pool by casting it, draw all but Tendrils. Petal, Top, LED, LED, break them both, tap Top, cast Tendrils. With a single additional mana, you can switch Tendrils for Death Wish for another storm, while requiring a bit more life, since you will be taking half hit three times.

[i_need_the_extra_turns]

Hi, I have some questions about the sideboard and the boarding plans.

Here is my List:
// Lands
2 [PT] Island
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 Underground Sea
1 [A] Tundra
1 [ST] Plains
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [u] Scrubland
1 [MM] Swamp

// Creatures
3 [FUT] Street Wraith

// Spells
4 [MM] Dark Ritual
4 [LRW] Ponder
1 [PT] Cruel Bargain
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [MI] Mystical Tutor
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
2 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
1 [TSP] Wipe Away
2 [SC] Tendrils of Agony

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [JU] Death Wish
SB: 1 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 1 [UL] Rebuild
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 2 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
SB: 3 [WL] Abeyance/ Duress
SB: 4 [WL] Serenity


It's the standard list, just replaced a wraith for the 4th ponder.
Sideboard:
Disrupt vs discard?
Or Duress?

[B]What is the boarding plan vs....?:

Ubw Landstill:
(They will board in: Extirpate and mage)
I suggest:
-3 Street Wraith
-1 ???
for
+4 Dark Confidant
What is with Duress/abeyance or echoing truth?


Ug/r *****:
-3 Street wraith
+3 Duress

Ugw *****
-3 Street wraith
+1 echoing truth
+...? (Confi)

Random chalice deck
-3 street wraith
-1 mystical
+4 Serenity

What's with Dragonstompy and Staxx and vial gobbos?

thx for the help.

[Skeggi]

Stax really isn't that big of a challenge, honestly. Trinisphere is what you should be scared of. At the first sign of stax what you should do is be looking for wipe away, or if they get an extremely agressive hand, you should look for Death Wish for a Rushing River.


Being a Stax player, I must say I love the Fetchland Tendrils match-up. :cool:

[emidln]

Being a Stax player, I must say I love the Fetchland Tendrils match-up. :cool:

We love the Stax matchup too. I was a Stax designer and can verify that for stax to even have a remote chance they need EE/ORing, fast 3sphere+LD, or a quick Chalice 1/2/3 (all 3 are required to not get blown out by Serenity or Rushing River and the timetable is by turn 3-4). Postboard, their only hope if they don't have the nuts Trini + LD (turn 2 Smokey or turn 2/3 Geddon) on the play for the opening three turns is FT having abysmal draws because Serenity, Rushing River, or ETruth are coming on turn 3. When Stax is on the draw, it fears turn 1 confidant (from the older 4 Petal builds) or turn 1 top (from the newer 17 land builds). Either of these probably means game over.

I think I posted a sideboarding guide for a SW + Petal list somewhere on the storm boards. Against Stax, you bring in Serenity, Rushing River, ETruth, and Dark Confidant. Against Dragon Stompy, you want Serenity, Rushign River, and ETruth. Against Landstill, you want Extirpate, Abeyance, Massacre, Death Wish, and Sudden Death/Wipe Away. Against UG/UGb Thresh you want Abeyance, Confidant, (Wipe Away if they have CB, Death Wish if it's UGb) and Extirpate. Against UGw/UGr Thresh you want Abeyance(, Wipe Away if they have CB,) and Extirpate.

Against discard, disrupt isn't horrible, but Confidant is just better. Duress is terrible (please don't play it).

[Adan]

We love the Stax matchup too. I was a Stax designer and can verify that for stax to even have a remote chance they need EE/ORing, fast 3sphere+LD, or a quick Chalice 1/2/3 (all 3 are required to not get blown out by Serenity or Rushing River and the timetable is by turn 3-4). Postboard, their only hope if they don't have the nuts Trini + LD (turn 2 Smokey or turn 2/3 Geddon) on the play for the opening three turns is FT having abysmal draws because Serenity, Rushing River, or ETruth are coming on turn 3. When Stax is on the draw, it fears turn 1 confidant (from the older 4 Petal builds) or turn 1 top (from the newer 17 land builds). Either of these probably means game over.

You always have your singleton Rushing River/Wipe Away/Echoing Truth against EVERYTHING your opponent plays, I see.

1 card against approx. 20 that can hurt you. That's still 19 chances to beat you. Chalice 1 hurts you teh most since it shuts of Dark Ritual (the most efficient earlygame manaaccel) and like 100 other spells like SDT, Ponder, Brainstorm and Mystical Tutor... actually everything that generates cardquality to find that 1 Rushing River.

Postboard Suppression Field can probably annoy you as well since you are relying on SDT and Fetchland a lot.

[emidln]

You always have your singleton Rushing River/Wipe Away/Echoing Truth against EVERYTHING your opponent plays, I see.

1 card against approx. 20 that can hurt you. That's still 19 chances to beat you. Chalice 1 hurts you teh most since it shuts of Dark Ritual (the most efficient earlygame manaaccel) and like 100 other spells like SDT, Ponder, Brainstorm and Mystical Tutor... actually everything that generates cardquality to find that 1 Rushing River.



4 Serenity
1 Rushing River
1 Echoing Truth


In closing, yes, I always do have it. When I don't, I mulligan.


Postboard Suppression Field can probably annoy you as well since you are relying on SDT and Fetchland a lot.

This is best argument I've heard in favor of Stax in a long time. This would indeed be rough, requiring nonbasics or Serenity.

[Arsenal]

It should be noted that lots of Stax sideboards have Seal of Cleansing in them, along with Suppression Field. What does FT do about Seal > Serenity, and Suppression Field > fetches/SDT (if your version if playing SDT)?

[Jaiminho]

You always have your singleton Rushing River/Wipe Away/Echoing Truth against EVERYTHING your opponent plays, I see.

1 card against approx. 20 that can hurt you. That's still 19 chances to beat you. Chalice 1 hurts you teh most since it shuts of Dark Ritual (the most efficient earlygame manaaccel) and like 100 other spells like SDT, Ponder, Brainstorm and Mystical Tutor... actually everything that generates cardquality to find that 1 Rushing River.

4 Serenity + 1 Rushing River + 1 Echoing Truth. That's 6. If you are on the play, you also have the chance to Mystical for them, so add 4. If they don't get Chalice @ 1 turn 1, that's even more chance. And it keeps going. Also, there's the double draw from a Confidant coming on turn 1 or 2.

For lists that play it, Lim-Dul's Vault is golden against Stax. Nice Chalice @ 1. Seriously, there's nothing better than grabbing the last combo piece plus Serenity. You won't even need a draw in hand, since you will have to wait until next turn anyway.



Postboard Suppression Field can probably annoy you as well since you are relying on SDT and Fetchland a lot.

I've always had it sided in against me. With this new Top list, it's even more annoying, but you still have more than half of your lands as non-fetchlands.



It should be noted that lots of Stax sideboards have Seal of Cleansing in them, along with Suppression Field. What does FT do about Seal > Serenity, and Suppression Field > fetches/SDT (if your version if playing SDT)?

If they, on top of all this, add Smokestack, then the clock is ticking and the game is much likely in their favor. But it's a lot of cards for a deck that doesn't have search or draw cards: 2 mana land, W mana source, Chalice, Suppression Field, Seal, Smokestack. Considering the game has taken a while to get to this, you will have 2-3 mana to activate fetchlands and top, so they better have that Smokestack.

[Adan]

Ok, at least, both of you are confessing that it can indeed get quite annoying for FT against Stax, but I will also give you that you can beat Stax of you know what to do from the beginning.

[GreenOne]

you also have chances at winning through an early chalice without bouncing/destroying it.
Stax plays Chalice@1 and passes the turn. You go 2xLED, land, petal, IT -> GG.
I never found stax to be a bad matchup, but never tested against MD Suppression Field.

[GreenOne]

On another note and sry for the double post:

Did anyone test E.Explosives in the 17 lands configuration?

Being castable for 3 mana it's harder to hit with CounterBalance than Serenity and takes care of pesky Goyfs, Geese and Confidants.
It's also good in the Belcher/Ichorid matchup.

The real problem EE had is that it was too slow and needed a more stable manabase. Now that the deck is slowing down/added lands to fit the meta better, it needs to be reconsidered.

[emidln]

On another note and sry for the double post:

Did anyone test E.Explosives in the 17 lands configuration?

Being castable for 3 mana it's harder to hit with CounterBalance than Serenity and takes care of pesky Goyfs, Geese and Confidants.
It's also good in the Belcher/Ichorid matchup.

The real problem EE had is that it was too slow and needed a more stable manabase. Now that the deck is slowing down/added lands to fit the meta better, it needs to be reconsidered.

It's definitely worth the consideration. I doubt it can take the place of Serenity (Serenity is for a different set of matchups), but it could be useful in the board. I'll test it.

[Bryant Cook]

Is EE worth it? Seems kind of slow, 4 mana to kill a card with a manacost of 2. Which would only make the deck slower, it's already slow enough as is.

[Cait_Sith]

I must concur. If you need a consistent way of dealing with nasty enchantments and EE cannot cut it there. There are enough enchantments that shut down this deck that a card like Serenity would be a much better idea.

With your number of lands, could EE even reliably deal with something as simple as tokens from Empty the Warrens? I am not so sure, since you would need EE and 2 land in your opening hand. Seems like a tight squeeze in most cases, because an aggressive mulligan for it will deny you one needed part or the other.

[BreathWeapon]

I don't mind Engineered Explosives, it hits Counterbalance, Meddling Mage and Tarmogoyf while circumventing both Counterbalance and Spellsnare, so you're definitely getting your money's worth out of the card even if it is really slow.

Not removing Chalce @ 0 is kind of a bummer tho'.

[emidln]

I must concur. If you need a consistent way of dealing with nasty enchantments and EE cannot cut it there. There are enough enchantments that shut down this deck that a card like Serenity would be a much better idea.

With your number of lands, could EE even reliably deal with something as simple as tokens from Empty the Warrens? I am not so sure, since you would need EE and 2 land in your opening hand. Seems like a tight squeeze in most cases, because an aggressive mulligan for it will deny you one needed part or the other.

Or a black-producing land and a dark ritual. Or you could keep a hand that doesn't need EE because it has chant + 2 lands, an early combo, or tutor for etruth. EE would not be the only solution, but it would allow for a wider array of options.

[Dark_Cynic87]

EE seems unnecessary at best. You already run 4x Serenity, Rushing River, Echoing Truth. Some builds run K. Grip, and all have a Wipe Away maindecked with 8 tutors plus a Death Wish in some/most builds. You don't need EE against Thresh critters, as you shouldn't lose to thresh. You have Chants against counterspells and against EtW. Just timewalk over them and combo off for the win; you can do this because if they EtW, you can know that they aren't running counterspells. What I haven't heard is how the matchups against Landstill are. I'm wondering about UW, UWb, UWx and 4-color Landstill. I see no Landstill in my area, and I don't really know about it's matchup and sb options. I'm guessing it's a lot like playing against Thresh. Chant your way to combo-city.

Has anyone had a problem against Ichorid? I got pwned (yeah...I know...) by a guy with his ichorid build games 2 and 3 no thanks to his SB'ed Sundering Titan...I just couldn't hit an Extirpate fast enough...I suppose that was just bad luck. I boarded both in. Figured I'd hit it soon enough. He hits Titan turn 2 in the MIDDLE of comboing off. I lose lands, he gets out 9 zombies and the stupid Titan, but no Flame-Kin. Passes the turn. I'm landless as I had a tundra and a Scrub out. I Petal into a Ponder, and don't catch a land. I shuffle and draw, hit 'Pate. Too bad, I lose. I'm certain he had a god hand. This was a rediculous game. Game 3 was a play error on my part...stupid.

I'll post my build soon enough. I have it, but not with me...I've been doing very well with it. I pulled this Doomsday pile off the other day:

turn 3:

have Top, Tundra, USea, Swamp out.
hand:
Dark Rit
Dark Rit
C. Rit
C. Rit
LED
Chant
IT

5x Cards in GY (mix of fetches, Ponder, and I think even a M. Tutor).

Tundra into Chant. Resolves...whoa.
Swamp into Rit Rit C. Rit C. Rit and drop an LED. This puts me at 10 black mana and LED. Play IT, popping LED for BBB. Now I have 12 black mana in my pool, and I grab DD. Play it leaving 9 black mana in my pool, grabbing Bargain, LED, LED, Wish, Tendrils. Tap Top draw bargain, bargain (6B left in pool) into Top, LED, LED, Wish. Drop top for 5 mana left, play double LED, play wish with 2 black mana left, pop LEDs for 8 left, Wish grabs Tendrils. Play it with 13 storm copies for 28 lifegain/loss, tap top, Double Tendrils for some serious freakin' overkill.

I wanted to ask if a singleton E. Tutor would be any use for grabbing tops? After boarding it can also grab Serenity...I don't use this very often, but if you have a top out already, you can put another on top of your library and build up storm that way also with it. It would even help those of you who chose to run EE. M. Tutor into E. Tutor, E. Tutor into Top/LED/Serenity/EE...it's something to think about I suppose.

Pce,

--DC

[Jaiminho]

M. Tutor into E. Tutor, E. Tutor into Top/LED/Serenity/EE...it's something to think about I suppose.

That is some serious card disadvantage. If you want to play something to fetch stuff other than instants and sorceries, use some Lim-Dul's Vaults.

[Dark_Cynic87]

Clearly I was dillusional at the time of posting that...meh. With all the chatter of LDV, I still had my head so far up my rear-end that I posted that nonsense...

Wow.

Pce,

--DC

[BreathWeapon]

"Shouldn't have a problem against Threshold" is a fucking joke, UGW Threshold with Counterbalances and Meddling Mages has to be one of the deck's worst possible match ups, and you should take anything you can get that can deal with Threshold's entire board.

TES has Vexing Shusher and I wouldn't go around bragging that we shouldn't have a problem against Threshold, that match up is always going to be difficult for Storm combo, and statements like this are one of the reasons FT players look so incredibly dishonest when they talk about their deck.

[Nihil Credo]

What I haven't heard is how the matchups against Landstill are. I'm wondering about UW, UWb, UWx and 4-color Landstill. I see no Landstill in my area, and I don't really know about it's matchup and sb options. I'm guessing it's a lot like playing against Thresh. Chant your way to combo-city.
I did quite a bit of testing with emidln in the last few days, playing the standard German UWb list. Game 1 is highly draw-dependant, mostly in FT's favour: draw creature control and definitely lose, draw lots of counterspells and probably win. Postboard (with Landstill siding Extirpates and Mages, and FT siding mage-kill, Abeyances, and Extirpate) there are no favourites: every game we've played could have seen its outcome changed very easily, except for those where one player got mana-screwed and therefore unable to put up a serious counter-fight (Wasteland is quite brutal in this matchup)

Oh, and about this:


you shouldn't lose to threshwe didn't yet test the matchup as much, but my pet UGB Thresh list (MD 3 Spell Snares and Dazes, 1 Needle, SB 3 Thoughtseizes and Extirpate, no Stifles or Waste) is 6-0 vs. the same FT build as above, with most games not being close i.e. I had leftover countermagic after winning.

[Brehn]

So I was one of those who thought that emidln's last list (page 14) was too slow. I've goldfished a little bit (about 70 hands):

Average goldfish turn: 3.84
Won until turn 3: 45.3 %
Won until turn 4: 76.6%
Won until turn 5: 93.8%

Mulligan to 5 or less: 4.7%
Average goldfish turn: 4.33 (!)

Win via
Ill-Gotten Gains 50.9% - average turn 3.28
Doomsday 42.1% - average turn 4.39
Double Tendrils 3.5% - average turn 4.50
Cruel Bargain 3.5% - average turn 5.00

Most savage plays:
- Turn 2 Chant-protected win.
- Turn 3 win after mull to 4.

While it's absolutely not true that decisions like playing Doomsday and no Petals slow down the deck's goldfish ability too much (although it's clearly visible that Doomsday is a slow wincondition), I'm still concerned: there was one single game where I could win via Doomsday without a Top on the table. Question - as I haven't tested this list against actual opponents at all: How devastating is Needle on Top for this list? How often do you have to get rid of it before going off? To what extent does it disrupt your ability to set up? Also, what would you rather like to see on your opponent's turn 1 - Leyline of the Void or Pithing Needle naming Top? And how does this decision depend on the aggressivity of the opponent's deck?

[emidln]

we didn't yet test the matchup as much, but my pet UGB Thresh list (MD 3 Spell Snares and Dazes, 1 Needle, SB 3 Thoughtseizes and Extirpate, no Stifles or Waste) is 6-0 vs. the same FT build as above, with most games not being close i.e. I had leftover countermagic after winning.

I think that 1 Needle was 4-0 in blowouts and UGB Thresh was 2-0 in close games. There was no way to deal with Needle on Top in g1. Unfortunately, you had a knack of hitting it 2 turns before I needed to go off off.

[Bryant Cook]

I think that 1 Needle was 4-0 in blowouts and UGB Thresh was 2-0 in close games. There was no way to deal with Needle on Top in g1. Unfortunately, you had a knack of hitting it 2 turns before I needed to go off off.

Am I reading this correctly? Fetchland Tendrils lost a match 2-0, is that even possible? Maybe he wouldn't of hit it 2 turns before if the clock was sped up.

[calosso]

I don't think this deck is very good if it cannot beat a single Pithing needle. Maybe you should not try to be so crafty with divining top and doomsday and become a more streamline combo deck.

[kicks_422]

I agree. It was fine with Street Wraiths, Petals, etc... SDT and Doomsday offer a lot of options, but I'd rather have less options if it would mean a faster clock.

[Jaiminho]

You don't need to go for the Doomsday way, you know... There is always double Chant for lots of storm or even IGG. Without the Doomsday kill in mind, the deck is just like it was before, since we (I, at least) never needed or should use 2 IGG against control.

[Mental]

I agree. It was fine with Street Wraiths, Petals, etc... SDT and Doomsday offer a lot of options, but I'd rather have less options if it would mean a faster clock.

I'd like to know why. I see a lot of people posting things like this in this thread, basically saying, Fast Clock = Good. The logic behind FT, however, is not to have a fast clock but to have a fast set up. You start off with a hand filled with Cantrips/Set up spells, and the idea is to be able to get to a place where you can go off undisrupted faster than Thresh can kill you, but not necessarily ASAP. The questions in the Thresh match are:
1) What turn will they kill you?
2) Can you set up faster than they can get their counterspells online, and get answers to Counterbalance?

While, if I was playing TES, the questions would be:
1) Do they have FoW?
2) Am I on the play?
3) Do they have Daze/Stifle if I'm not on the play.
4) Is CBalance in play? If so, and it's postboard, I lose.

Not to say either deck is bad. Their both very strong, but in different ways.

[Jak]

I'd like to know why. I see a lot of people posting things like this in this thread, basically saying, Fast Clock = Good. The logic behind FT, however, is not to have a fast clock but to have a fast set up. You start off with a hand filled with Cantrips/Set up spells, and the idea is to be able to get to a place where you can go off undisrupted faster than Thresh can kill you, but not necessarily ASAP. The questions in the Thresh match are:
1) What turn will they kill you?
2) Can you set up faster than they can get their counterspells online, and get answers to Counterbalance?

While, if I was playing TES, the questions would be:
1) Do they have FoW?
2) Am I on the play?
3) Do they have Daze/Stifle if I'm not on the play.
4) Is CBalance in play? If so, and it's postboard, I lose.

Not to say either deck is bad. Their both very strong, but in different ways.

There are more decks in the format than Thresh. When you make the deck slower to increase one MU that is still not that great , you weaken other MUs like aggro (goblins, sligh, etc) and combo.

TES still runs Chant and has plenty of ways to find it. It can easily go offbefore Chant. Also, postboard means Shusher and it is not a definite loss. Even preboard, burning wish for tranquility still works. Hopefully we don't get in that situation because the deck is fast.

I think you weaken the deck more thatn strengthen it by making it slower. You give thresh more time to set up. It just doesn't seem logical to make the deck slowersoyou can answer more hate. Why not make it faster, answer less hate because it won't be there, and have winnable MUs against other decks?

[Mental]

There are more decks in the format than Thresh. When you make the deck slower to increase one MU that is still not that great , you weaken other MUs like aggro (goblins, sligh, etc) and combo.

TES still runs Chant and has plenty of ways to find it. It can easily go offbefore Chant. Also, postboard means Shusher and it is not a definite loss. Even preboard, burning wish for tranquility still works. Hopefully we don't get in that situation because the deck is fast.

I think you weaken the deck more thatn strengthen it by making it slower. You give thresh more time to set up. It just doesn't seem logical to make the deck slowersoyou can answer more hate. Why not make it faster, answer less hate because it won't be there, and have winnable MUs against other decks?

In general I agree. I think FT's problem right now is that it is way off balance. The pendulum has swung too far to the extended set up. This deck needs to strike an equilibrium between set up/going off before they have answers, so that you can locate the time where you have the most protection in proportion to their answers. I think FT is at the point where, at the time you go off, you have a lot of protection, but Thresh also has a lot of answers. Incidentally, you'll also be at pretty low life at this point in the new builds, which gives you even less maneuverability.

[Jaiminho]

Incidentally, you'll also be at pretty low life at this point in the new builds, which gives you even less maneuverability.

You will be at the same life you would otherwise, unless you are talking about lists before Death Wish was here. Doomsdaying for the next turn is a calculated risk, such as Draw4 and Death Wish. These are the only three cards that make the difference in life loss compared to the older build, while not having to take the life hit from Street Wraith anymore. That's more life until you get hit by one those three cards.

[kicks_422]

The logic behind FT, however, is not to have a fast clock but to have a fast set up.

That's exactly what the recent builds have lacked - significant early turns. The older versions were more streamlined with the first couple of turns BS/Ponder/Mystical/Infernal/Street Wraith into the win in Turn 3. Compare that with the recent builds of first couple of turns SDT, spinning, and just then building up steam.

[Brehn]

Playing SDT does not prevent you from playing BS/Ponder/Mystical/Infernal. If you're playing a Doomsday list, SDT is not only a setup card, it's a combo piece that can be cast preemptively. I often find myself going off with Doomsday without having used SDT once.

Also, I don't think this deck should be compared to TES when designing a list. TES and FT follow absolutely different strategies (as Mental pointed out).


I think you weaken the deck more thatn strengthen it by making it slower. You give thresh more time to set up. It just doesn't seem logical to make the deck slowersoyou can answer more hate. Why not make it faster, answer less hate because it won't be there, and have winnable MUs against other decks?
Play TES. It's a good deck and it fits the strategy you want to follow. It's absolutely able to win before hate shows up and it plays protection.

Also, "winnable MUs against other decks". I believe that a combo deck, whose slowest list has goldfished by turn 5 in ~95% of the games, does not only have a winnable Aggro matchup, but it has a positive aggro matchup. It might be not as positive as TES's aggro matchup, but that's not the point. Still, testing against aggro is necessary, especially against decks like Goyf Sligh or Burn which can pull off "Bolt, Bolt, Fireblast, GG" after you've payed 10 life for some spell.

[emidln]

I retested some of the thresh matchup against a build similar to Nihil's and a slightly more hateful build UGBw (splash for sideboard MM). The difference here between the builds I was playing was a suggestion that a teammate has been playing for awhile (Extirpate main with 4 Chant) and no Confidant in the sideboard (when I was testing against Nihil, I was testing how Confidant affects the UGB CB Matchup with Doomsday. I came into some interesting results:

The cards to board out against black thresh are:

Doomsday
Cruel Bargain
Brain Freeze
Sensei's Divining Top
Lotus Petal
Mystical Tutor

for:

Extirpate
Extirpate
Abeyance
Krosan Grip
Krosan Grip
Krosan Grip

It took me quite a few matches to realize that the black thresh match can't afford the extra space required by Doomsday without either cutting Ponder or Mystical Tutor (which in testing turned out to be a disaster). This is directly in the face of of previous reliance on Doomsday here. The key cards against UGB Thresh are Extirpate and Krosan Grip, with the storm count not being very relevant since Thresh is going to either contest you on your combo turn or lose to IGG (you can rely on one of these happening).

This is different than the other Thresh matchups:

Red Thrash:

In:
Abeyance
Extirpate

Out:
Ponder
Brain Freeze

I haven't found this matchup all that hard. Brain Freeze isn't necessary here. The third Extirpate isn't necessary either.

UGW Counterbalance (assuming Mage or Teeg)

Abeyance
Extirpate
Extirpate
Krosan Grip
Krosan Grip
Krosan Grip

IGG
Ponder
Ponder
Ponder
Lotus Petal
Mystical Tutor

The difference here is that in the white thresh matchup, the alternate win condition of Brain Freeze is relevant due to Mage or Teeg.

[Jak]

How did those plans improve the MU? Youmay be able to answer a CB and countermagic, but I don't think you could do it fast enough.

[emidln]

How did those plans improve the MU? Youmay be able to answer a CB and countermagic, but I don't think you could do it fast enough.

Part of what was slowing me down against Nihil's build was that I couldn't assemble the necessary protection fast enough due to being forced to board out all of my Ponders and Mystical Tutors to keep Doomsday. When I shed the Doomsday kill there (it's highly unlikely that I have my single Tendrils in my hand for them to Thoughtseize and then they need Extirpate for it anyway) I gain a lot of free slots that significantly increase my ability to find both protection and combo pieces against thresh.

[Dark_Cynic87]

So if expecting a lot of CounterTop, board should include 3x Grips? I suppose that means a trop mainboard (I refuse to waste a slot in my sb with a Trop). What should be dropped? 3x Serenity? That seems rediculous...God. I hate countertop.

Board would look like this (?):
3x K. Grip
1x Serenity
2x Extirpate
1x Abeyance (Maybe more)
1x Bargain/Contract
1x Rushing River
1x Massacre
1x Echoing Truth
4x Confidant

I don't know how many of you still run confidants. I suppose you could up the Grip to 4 and the Serenity to 4 instead of Confidants, or an additional Abeyance, some of you may like having a second Wipe Away in your board.

Here's my build as it stands atm:

//45 spells
2x Tendrils of Agony
1x Wipe Away
1x IGG
4x Chant
1x Bargain
3x SDT
3x Ponder
4x Brainstorm
1x D. Wish
1x DD
2x LDV
3x M. Tutor
4x IT
3x Petal
4x LED
4x Dark Rit
4x Cabal Rit

//15 Land
1x Tundra
1x USea
2x Scrubs
1x Swamp
2x Island
4x Strand
4x Delta

//15 Sideboard Cards
4x Dark Confidant
3x Serenity
2x Extirpate
1x Contract
1x Abeyance
1x Rushing River
1x E. Truth
1x Massacre
1x Slaughter Pact

Wondering if I want to change the Massacre for a Pyroclasm. I realize I don't run red, but I still have 3x Petals MD'ed. Just an idea...And yes, I still run Confidants. They work well for me, the only reason I'd drop them is for a 4th Serenity and 3x K. Grip, if that's necessary to beat countertop...If I needed to do this, I'd drop an Island MD for a Trop.

Would it be just to random to Leave only 1 SDT maindecked and put one in the board? This would allow for some Street Wraiths to be put back in. To be honest, I like them also. I've missed them in some matchups. Could also drop a LDV or a M. Tutor for another Street Wraith. Running LDV makes it easier to get around Chalice at 1. Also lets you "tutor" for either Death Wish or for Wipe Away.

Another take on hate in general is just to hate back. Meddling Mage is on color. Probably nothing there, but I haven't heard it mentioned. Then there's the always popular FoW, we do run enough blue to support it...but chant would have to be dropped (I don't see anything else that could go down in number besides Petals in my list, and I don't think that would be good).

What about this:

//46 spells
4x C. Rit
4x D. Rit
4x LED
3x Petal
4x IT
3x M. Tutor
1x LDV
1x D. Wish
4x Brainstorm
3x Ponder
2x SW
3x SDT
1x Bargain
4x Chant
1x Wipe Away
1x IGG
1x DD
2x Tendrils

//14 land
4x Delta
3x Strand
2x Scrub
1x Tundra
1x USea
1x Island
1x Swamp

//15 SB cards
3x Serenity
3x K. Grip
2x Extirpate
1x Abeyance
1x Contract/Bargain
1x R. River
1x E. Truth
1x Slaughter Pact
1x Massacre
1x SW

This is completely untested...The second Top in the maindeck could be a 4th Wraith...It still leaves the combo intact, but adds a little bit more aggression to the deck. I am not sure that 2x LDV with only 14 lands is a wise idea, but it's something to tamper with. You get one more cantrip out of this build though.

I'd like to hear some thoughts...I know Emidln would drop 2x Petals, 1x for a 15th land, and maybe a sixteenth as well, but maybe another top or M. Tutor...all decent ideas. I like to keep the explosiveness petals offer. Not that you can choose the matchups you draw an aggressive hand, but...

Pce,

--DC

[Mental]

You will be at the same life you would otherwise, unless you are talking about lists before Death Wish was here. Doomsdaying for the next turn is a calculated risk, such as Draw4 and Death Wish. These are the only three cards that make the difference in life loss compared to the older build, while not having to take the life hit from Street Wraith anymore. That's more life until you get hit by one those three cards.

Doomsday + Contract makes Burn, UGR Thrash, and Goyf Sligh often much harder MUs, because they now have 8+ more cards that you're afraid of.

@DC:
A few points, in Train of Thought format.
Why would you want to play Clasm of Massacre? What is the gain?
What benefit would a Wraith/Top split give? It would seem to me to make the deck even more indecisive.
Why play Slaughter Pact over something like Sudden Death?
Running 4 KGrip against Counterbalance seems like a very strong plan. Confidant could be strong or unnecessary, I've never bothered to test it.
LDV is decent, but how do you feel about having to play black mana early to activate it?

[emidln]

Doomsday + Contract makes Burn, UGR Thrash, and Goyf Sligh often much harder MUs, because they now have 8+ more cards that you're afraid of.

No. You'll play Doomsday into Contract under the protection of Chant decks or not at all. Doing otherwise would be like asking why it's possible to lead swamp, Dark Ritual, pass the turn (burning for 3). It's possible to do, but only an idiot would play Dark Ritual if they have nothing to protect themselves from mana burn. More on topic, it's rarely necessary to even attempt Doomsday against decks with burn due to ease of which these decks allow you to play IGG. Thrash is the only standout here, but the burn in this matchup is scary as an additional element of the clock, balanced out by the fact that Thrash has 4 relevant cards once you hit 3 lands.


Why would you want to play Clasm of Massacre? What is the gain?

Massacre allows you to play your Meddling Mage removal for multiple mages in a single card protectable with Chant. The major drawback is that Mage often names Chant and makes Massacre much worse. This is probably worse than running a Sudden Death + Doomsday/Brain Freeze from testing.

[Dark_Cynic87]

Doomsday + Contract makes Burn, UGR Thrash, and Goyf Sligh often much harder MUs, because they now have 8+ more cards that you're afraid of.

@DC:
A few points, in Train of Thought format.
Why would you want to play Clasm of Massacre? What is the gain?
What benefit would a Wraith/Top split give? It would seem to me to make the deck even more indecisive.
Why play Slaughter Pact over something like Sudden Death?
Running 4 KGrip against Counterbalance seems like a very strong plan. Confidant could be strong or unnecessary, I've never bothered to test it.
LDV is decent, but how do you feel about having to play black mana early to activate it?

Massacre over clasm: Massacre is free against Mages and Teeg. I've never had an opponent name Massacre game 1, and if they do game 2 or 3, it's not like you don't have outs anyway. Wipe Away the one that named Tendrils. Slaughter Pact is another one, Rushing River, Echoing Truth...

Wraith/Top Split: Both work the same essentially, but gives you outs to needle and such. The slot is interchangeable. Also, Wraith can give you a tidbit of draw in the face of a chalice at 1, not an extremely valid point, but still. The main idea was to be aggressive. Hence the 3x Petals and the 2x Wraiths, while still leaving the Top. View it as indecisive, but I think it's the strongest route around the controversy of SDT vs. SW. Leaves the Top and the aggressive side of the deck. I may go to 3x Wraith, 2x Top, leaving the Top in the board instead, but I'm not sure yet.

Pact over S. Death: There's not one creature you need to kill before your go-off turn unless they do something silly like naming Dark Ritual with Meddling Mage. Hence, it's a free spell that rids you of Teeg/Mage. I thought most lists ran it...I've always used it. Even if you end up having to pay for it, it only costs 2B, which is not hard to do on turn 3, which is when you will probably end up going off anyway if they are playing Mages, giving them blue and the obvious counterspells. This also leads to the point that you will also be under Chant protection since you are playing against counter-magic, so split-second isn't really an argument.

I think 3x Grips are sufficient. Serenity will almost always be easier to cast. You can get it down turn 1 easy via fetching white and a Petal. Very rarely will you be able to play a Grip on turn 1 on something like Chalice. Serenity has the added effect of basically timewalking you against artifact heavy builds.

I think I like Grips over Confidants. Testing has shown me the error of my ways. Plus, you run Brainstorms, Ponders, Tops and Street Wraiths in this build. It's nice to have the extra draw against control builds, but K. Grip and Serenity often make board-controlling aspects a moot point.

I like LDV. Black mana, whoop-dee-doo. I run extra; 2x Scrubs, 1x USea and a Swamp. 3x are fetchable by either, and the other by 4, plus I have petals. I'm quite okay with it. Often, and I don't recommend this very often, but I've dropped petal into rit, played top, fetched a USea, tapped it for blue and LDV into what I'm needing, and topped into it. Like another Dark Rit. That's 5 spells on turn 1, and you have mana. It's quite possible to go off like that. Like I said, unless you know your matchup and KNOW you are safe, I don't recommend it. Most of the time if you cast a LDV, you will win. Playing slowly is ok to do. Turn 2 LDV is a safe good play. I don't think I've ever drawn it and been upset. It's been a dead card once in a while, but it's never held me back. Plus, it's only as a 1-of. Works like a M. Tutor only not as susceptable to Chalice, and really lets you look for that Death Wish/Wipe Away. Might even put it up to 2, as it's really panning out for me.

BTW, Emidln, what is this talk of Brain Freeze? Tech, or mistype? You've mentioned it at least 2 times now...I think I'm missing something.

Pce,

--DC

[jegger]

I've discarded permanently the 17-lands build. There are advantages and disavantages.

The advantages are that there is an improvement in the matchup against Landstill. -Petals +Lands for a more stable manabase, SDT kills the power of Standstill (I've seen that a first turn SDT, second opponent's turn Standstill is only an advantage for us and an opponent's mistake in many cases) and if we have the access to Extirpate maindeck we have others more chances to win.
But, is this advantage so necessary? I see that also with the last version we can fight against a Landstill player with good chances to win if my oppnent hasn't an anticombo side (Arcane Laboratory, Orim,...)
Another advantage is against disruption slow clock decks like Stax thanks to a better manabase, but in many cases there is the problem of Armageddon (or others reset like Devastating Dreams, Cataclysm,...), so we must try to win as fast as possible and we haven't a so large advantage in comparison to the last build with Petals.

The disavantages are against fast clock decks like goblin/burn. Ok, I know we can win before of 4th turn, but with a 17-lands manabase without Petals & Street Wraith, that can give us a subtle and often not seen help, we risk more mulligans because of mediocre hand (3 lands, one or more nails like IGG or ToA,...) or the flood.

For these reasons I discard this version of deck and Petals return to be a staple of the deck.

I've seen more versions and more decklists in the topic. I think that all these versions and suggests are goods in the right metagame, so I think that it's fundamental to specify the metagame associate to a decklist.
There is a skeleton that is composed from rituals, tutors, cantrips, then there are others cards that rotate around the deck like SW, Death Wish, Extirpate,...

For example I think that SW aren't outdated in comparison to SDT in the right metagame. I continue to prefer SW in a fast meta with more combo and aggro .
If for example there is more disruption decks than blue decks in the form of Stax, AggroLoam, DragonStompy (+ Belcher decks) I prefer a maindeck Echoing Truth instead of Wipe Away that can be in SB for the right occasion.
Another card is Extirpate: in a meta infested from Landstill and Ichorid it's the right choice over for example the 4th Orim.
Another example is Death Wish: I can use it maindeck only in a meta with a good percentages of decks playing Extirpate. If there are more disruption decks like Stax I continue to prefer in g1 a bouncer like Echoing Truth in comparison to a Death Wish that requires too much time and it’s at sorcery speed.
And so on...

So some statements like: Death Wish is better maindeck are all relative to the metagame's context.

With the new build, Suppression Field in Stax becomes more dangerous. Luckily not all Stax's players use it in SB and know how strong it's in this matchup.
Usually in Stax matchup is very important the coin toss: if I win it I have the chances to start in 2 games and this is very important because this help us to play Mystical, SDT, Petal, Confidant(if someone uses it) before a Chalice or Trinisphere. But the card I really have fear in this matchup is Armageddon: I can mulligan an hand that autoloss from Chalice at 1 if I'm on the draw, but I can't do very much against an Armageddon that is played when I'm setting to start the combo or to search the bouncer/Serenity. Armageddon often cut my legs, so sometimes if I topdeck extra lands, but instead all I need is a tutor or a bouncer/Serenity ftw, I keep the lands in hand.

Ichorid is not a bad matchup. Postside we have one or more Extirpate, Abeyance and Echoing Truth. Usually I cut the second ToA, Wipe Away and one or more SDT that are more slow than Ponder (or Death Wish if you use it maindeck). I’ve tried Honor the Fallen in 1x in SB that it’s more incisive than Extirpate if my opponent doesn’t win in the first 2 turns on the play; but it’s sidable only in one matchup so I cut it.

@Dark_Cynic87: Massacre doesn’t kill Teeg.
Anyway I prefer it in comparison to Pyroclasm that requires a Volcanic Island maindeck. Usually Massacre is in SB only for 2 cards: Meddling Mage and True Believer; I played only one time against Teeg and all I need in this case is a bouncer.
My only doubt now is: can I replace Massacre with Brain Freeze? We surpass the Teeg and Mage defense with it, but not a True Believer.
(Brain Freeze is basically against Meddling Mage and Extirpate and because sometimes you can do enough storm with Doomsday stack, but you haven’t enough mana to play a ToA).

About the TES vs FT problem, I've played both. Unfortunately I don't go often to 40+players Legacy tournament (I don't consider 10people tournaments - too much smalls). I hold TES to only one tournament one year ago when it was almost unknow and I do a second place. I hold FT to 3 tournaments collecting a 15th place at 100+players in december and a 11th and 3th places
at 40players tournaments. Now it's obvius that everybody defends their pet decks; I own and play both the decks, so both are my pet decks :wink:.
All I can say it's if I'm waiting a meta with many landstill and stax/stompy I bring FT, instead if I'm waiting a meta with many threshold and trinketTopBalance I bring TES.
No preferences.

[Illissius]

Massacre over clasm: Massacre is free against Mages and Teeg

...not so much.

[emidln]

BTW, Emidln, what is this talk of Brain Freeze? Tech, or mistype? You've mentioned it at least 2 times now...I think I'm missing something.


I did some analysis of win conditions. Brain Freeze is the second best win condition the deck has available to it. It circumvents Extirpates, Mages, and Teegs while fitting in perfectly with my Doomsday package. It kills immediately (for the most part, you pass the turn, but if an opponent can kill you with burn spells, you deserve to lose for attempting to Brain Freeze them) which is miles ahead of ETW putting you at risk for a million and one common mass removal spells. This is risk (for ETW) made worse by the fact the alternate win is played after the main win is nullified meaning even later in the game with an opponent having even more opportunity to draw answers for it.

[Dark_Cynic87]

...not so much.

Whoops, my bad. I'm in the middle of a 10-page paper, so I'm a bit distracted. I pulled another all-nighter (shown by my posting times), so I'm a bit on the tired side, also.

I suppose you are right about the teegs thing, but if there's a Teeg out, just S. Pact it (He's legendary, right?) Dealing with him in multiples is not a worry. If they have out Teeg and mages, well...hehehe, like you'll EVER have to worry about that...

Emidln: How do you get enough storm to deck them? I'm guessing opening hand of 7, then what, turn 3 you go off? Multiple copies or what? I guess I don't get it.

Pce,

--DC

[emidln]

Whoops, my bad. I'm in the middle of a 10-page paper, so I'm a bit distracted. I pulled another all-nighter (shown by my posting times), so I'm a bit on the tired side, also.

I suppose you are right about the teegs thing, but if there's a Teeg out, just S. Pact it (He's legendary, right?) Dealing with him in multiples is not a worry. If they have out Teeg and mages, well...hehehe, like you'll EVER have to worry about that...

Emidln: How do you get enough storm to deck them? I'm guessing opening hand of 7, then what, turn 3 you go off? Multiple copies or what? I guess I don't get it.

Pce,

--DC

I usually use Doomsday to combo with Brain Freeze. The stacks normally look something like this:

Draw4
Acceleration
Acceleration
SDT
Brain Freeze

The actual accel varies depending on I have available in hand/in play/on the table. The basic premise is that you're going to go about comboing normally into Infernal -> Doomsday floating all the mana you can. You then draw 1 mana for 1 storm, looping SDTs until you have 1U left where you play Freeze.

[GreenOne]

I've discarded permanently the 17-lands build. There are advantages and disavantages.


QFT. I dropped it for the reasons. The thing i miss more from the 17 Lands build is the lack of an efficient Doomsday combo to fight Grave hate.
But anyway, what i really liked in this deck (compared to, say, TES), was the ability to aggressively mulligan and go for the throat when he needed to, but when he didn't need to he could just play slowly and sculpt a hand with a good manabase on board.

With the lack of petal and SW the deck is becoming more and more "controllish", based on "pay half your life" cards to gain a better middle game, losing a good number of turn 1-2 kills.
I still want to read the fear on my opponent's face keeping a hand with a turn 2 Trinisphere on the draw, knowing that it can be raced a good amount of times.

@jegger: I'm testing LDV too as 1x and here's what i think about it ATM:
Pros:
-It's golden to build turn 3 wins, on turn 1 you already have to play Brainstorm/Ponder/Mystical, so it's really never played unless you need 1 card to go off on turn 2 and have a Petal to spare.
- It's the only tutor for LED we have
- It's great G2 and G3, where it finds Serenity and Confidant (if you play it)
- It "comboes" with SW and SDT
- It "comboes" A LOT with Brainstorm, to draw multiple useful cards. You can even stack Brainstorm itself in the 5 card stack.
- It circumvents Chalice @2
- It's more difficult to counter with a Counterbalance than Mystical.

Cons:
- It costs black mana early in the game
- It's card disadvantage in addition to Mystical Tutor
- It costs 2 mana
- It costs some amount of life (usually 2-3 points)

At the moment I'm running a 2 SW, 1 LDV, 4 Ponder, 2 Tendrils, 2 IGG build. I'm thinking about going to 2 LDV, but I fear too much card disadvantage. I tried to cut a Mystical for a 2nd copy of LDV, but mystical is too good to pass up.

[Dark_Cynic87]

QFT. I dropped it for the reasons. The thing i miss more from the 17 Lands build is the lack of an efficient Doomsday combo to fight Grave hate.
But anyway, what i really liked in this deck (compared to, say, TES), was the ability to aggressively mulligan and go for the throat when he needed to, but when he didn't need to he could just play slowly and sculpt a hand with a good manabase on board.

With the lack of petal and SW the deck is becoming more and more "controllish", based on "pay half your life" cards to gain a better middle game, losing a good number of turn 1-2 kills.
I still want to read the fear on my opponent's face keeping a hand with a turn 2 Trinisphere on the draw, knowing that it can be raced a good amount of times.

@jegger: I'm testing LDV too as 1x and here's what i think about it ATM:
Pros:
-It's golden to build turn 3 wins, on turn 1 you already have to play Brainstorm/Ponder/Mystical, so it's really never played unless you need 1 card to go off on turn 2 and have a Petal to spare.
- It's the only tutor for LED we have
- It's great G2 and G3, where it finds Serenity and Confidant (if you play it)
- It "comboes" with SW and SDT
- It "comboes" A LOT with Brainstorm, to draw multiple useful cards. You can even stack Brainstorm itself in the 5 card stack.
- It circumvents Chalice @2
- It's more difficult to counter with a Counterbalance than Mystical.

Cons:
- It costs black mana early in the game
- It's card disadvantage in addition to Mystical Tutor
- It costs 2 mana
- It costs some amount of life (usually 2-3 points)

At the moment I'm running a 2 SW, 1 LDV, 4 Ponder, 2 Tendrils, 2 IGG build. I'm thinking about going to 2 LDV, but I fear too much card disadvantage. I tried to cut a Mystical for a 2nd copy of LDV, but mystical is too good to pass up.

2x IGG is a waste of space, even without Doomsday 2 is unnecessary.

LDV doesn't circumvent chalice@2...chalice@1, yeah...LDV is also no more difficult to counter with CB than M. Tutor. They respond with brainstorm, dropping Goyf on top.

How many Tops do you run? You are only running 2x SW, so I'm assuming you are running tops...2x or 3x?

So one more question about Brain Freeze...Do you run it SB or MD, and if it's MD, what slot? Tendrils #2?

[GreenOne]

2x IGG is a waste of space, even without Doomsday 2 is unnecessary.

Yeah, still thinking about that. I rarely go for 2 IGG loops unless it's a turn 1 win or there's some sort of life gain involved. It happens, however, that i use a drew IGG to gain Hellbent for IT.



LDV doesn't circumvent chalice@2...chalice@1, yeah...

Yeah, but people tend to play Chalice @0 and @1 before waiting to cast Chalice for 2.



LDV is also no more difficult to counter with CB than M. Tutor. They respond with brainstorm, dropping Goyf on top.

There's usually a higher number of 1cc drops than 2cc drops in threshold lists.
If they play a turn 2 counterbalance and you play a turn 2 LDV they're likely blindly reveal 1-0cc.
If they have an active top a Mystical will NEVER resolve, where a LDV could.

In your case they gotta have a Brainstorm and 1 of the 11 2cc drops of the deck in hand and first 3 cards. Obviously it's likely, but it's much more likely with a 1cc drop.



How many Tops do you run? You are only running 2x SW, so I'm assuming you are running tops...2x or 3x?

Here's what I'm testing at the moment. Maybe I could go -1 IGG +1 LDV or SW.
0 Tops included.

// Lands
1 [A] Underground Sea
1 [ST] Swamp (1)
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [MM] Island (3)
1 [U] Scrubland
1 [U] Tundra
1 [P3] Plains (1)

// Creatures
2 [FUT] Street Wraith

// Spells
4 [5E] Brainstorm
2 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
2 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [A] Dark Ritual
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MI] Mystical Tutor
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
1 [TSP] Wipe Away
4 [LRW] Ponder
1 [PT] Cruel Bargain
1 [AL] Lim-Dul's Vault

[Dark_Cynic87]

this list seems pretty ballsy. LMK how only 2x SW works out, as I've never wanted less than 4x of either top or wraith. I would HIGHLY encourage a Doomsday, as 2 IGG makes you quite dependent on your 'yard. I'm more about getting what I need, so I enjoy the D. Wish. Clearly, you focus on going for the throat. What kind of meta do you play in? This seems pretty aggro-oriented, with some permission, but not much. The chants look like they are more for timewalking than anything. I'm also guessing you don't see many stompy builds, as a lack of answers is quite apparent pre-boarding. I've also thought about switching Brainstorm and Ponder's count around to 3 and 4 respectively, but I don't like a set of each. 8 is just too much for me. Just for a quasi-tutor that doesn't need hellbent and gets around chalices and CB most effectively, I'd recommend dropping down to 3 M. Tutors and up the LDV count by 1. They are no worse, especially in the matchups you need to slow down in such as stompy (other factors like your hand and the opening plays notwithstanding, of course) and other artifact-control MU's.

I run a more tech'ed out list, as my meta consists of Dragon Stompy, Ichorid, Fish (lol, yeah...), MBA, some Thresh and burn (hehehehe, bye), and a little zoo every now and then. Oh, and a wierd wizard build that incorporates CounterTop. It's actually a pretty difficult matchup. And why wouldn't it be, I built it for the guy...:rolleyes:

Pce,

--DC

[dlevsApiJ]

Today I played a tourney with FT..

The list I played:
// Lands
1 [A] Underground Sea
1 [ST] Swamp
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [MM] Island
1 [u] Scrubland
1 [u] Tundra
1 [P3] Plains

// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Orim's Chant
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Ponder
2 Lotus Petal*
2 Ill-Gotten Gains
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Wipe Away
1 Cruel Bargain
1 Lim-Dul's Vault
1 Extirpate
0 Doomsday*

// Sideboard
3 Serenity**
3 Krosan Grip**
1 Tropical Island
2 Abeyance
1 Extirpate
1 Recoup
1 Echoing Truth
1 Rushing River
1 Death Wish
1 Cruel Bargain

*Normally I play 1 less and a Doomsday in the slot.. But I bought the card and he didnt arrived in time.. And a friend he has is couldnt find it.. So I has to chance 1 card 10 minues before the tourney started
**Normally I play 4 Serenity, but I only had 3.. So I played 1 Grip more..

I wen 3-2-0..

Matchups:

Round 1 MUC with main Countertop..

After a game of 40 minutes (all Chants were already in my grave) he has CounterTop.. Eot I bounce his balance with Wipe Away.. In my turn I try to go off (many Tutors and Rituals in hand).. My tendrils gets him only to 2-6 (I forgot my pen.. So I cant check it..) But he had to pitch his Balance to his Fow!.. 10 minutes later he has a Morphling, and I'm at 5 life.. I play Pate on his Rune Snag.. Hit! Only 1 Delta in his hand.. Now he only has 5 mana open, a Top in play and Fow as the only counter (ok, Force Spike.. But I had all my lands on the table so mana was no problem), so he coulnt look at the top 3 with his top.. I go off.. he draws no FOW and I win,, hell yeah! :cool: .

We have 5 turns for game 2.. Why not.. Its possible. He starts, plays a land and says go.. I do the same.. he does nothing Eot.. He plays a land agains and doesn nithing agains.. Eot I play Brainstorm, he Spikes it.. In my upkeep I play a M Tutor, he Force Spikes it.. I draw a card and can combo out.. Why wont I try it.. I dont have mana for my Chant/Abeyance so I try to go off, never know.. It was my last chance.. So I go off.. Dont know how exactly but I find myself 1 storm to short.. So we say to the judge it is 1-0.. But 1 minut later, I remember wo totally forgot the storm from M Tutor and Spike in the upkeep.. Damn,, but it didnt mathered very much..

Round 2 D&T

Game 1, duh, I winn..
Game 2, he plays a Thorn of Amethyst turn 1 and attacks a couple of turns.. Then I go EOT bounce, and in my turn I combo of.. But When I go Igg -> Tutor +2 C Ritual, I see I dont have ***** for the 1st C Ritual (stupid miscalculating (is that a word?))... So I couldnt make enough mana for another Igg, so I had to pick a Tendrils, Needed only 1 storm more to kill him!! He was on 2, played his Thorn and beats my ass.. didnt draww anything usefull.
Game 3, Thorn of Amethyst + Glowrider.. Fuck you! Stupid anti combo side.. I also had to mull to 5 with still not a very great hand..

How can I lose that MU ...

Round 3 DS with Trini main..
Game 1, Cotv at 1.. I draw a card and now I have in hand some land, 3 BS, 1 SDT and 1 D Ritual.. Turn 2 Slogger beats my to hell
Game 2, he starts again with a Cotv at 1, Eot I crack my Delta fo a Scrubland (I had 2 Island (1 in play, 1 in hand) and was thinking of searching a Swamp.. But because he didnt knew what I play (he only saw Basic Islands) I hoped he boarded out his Blood Moons..) and I go LDV into 1 Led, a Tutor and a Recoup! Nice.. I have 1 LED in my hand already.. Then he plays a Cotv at 2.. Followed by Trinisphere.. Then I draw my Recoup, so I can bounce his stuff Eot.. But in his turn he goes Blood Moon.. Damn,, no black mana left to combo out.. I better searched for a Swamp.. But when the Recoup was a Serenity it was better this way.. So it was just unlucky..

Round 4 Deadguy Rock
Win turn 3 and 2

Round 5 UW Salvagers Combo
Game 1, I get him down to 4 (I couldnt het enough storm because of counter I think..) Then he starts beating me.. In the last turn I have, I have 4 lands and 1 card I dont need, I know he has no counters (cant remember why I knew this..) I topdeck BS, cast it, draw LED, Tutor and 1 card I cant remember.. Woow! topdeckskill! Cast LED -> Tutor -> Tendrils
Game 2, I play a Cruel bargain turn 1.. But still my hand ist very good.. A MM on Tendrils and Tutor (he better called a bounce spell) follow and he beats my below zero.
Game 3, Again I strat with 1 Bargain on turn 1.. But now I have 2 Chant, 1 Abeyance and many rituals + Tutor.. I cast 1 Chant and it resolves.. Ok.. GG.
He has many counters + MM in hand.. But he didnt draw his mana

I'm very happy of the list I played.. I didnt missed the Doomsday, but thats just because I didnt came in a situation where he should be good.. Just lucky.
Only thing I wanna chance is Main more LDV, just so broken.. Maybe -1 M Tutor and +1 LDV, and Side +1 Pate -1 Abeyance (2 mana is pretty much, but I keep playing 1.. Against Tormods Crypt and random crap...)

It was the first tourney with the deck.. And I really like the deck.. I only lost to random D&T SB cards and DS, but that MU is soo hard.. especially with Trini main.. My win against MUC after 50 minutes was soo cool..


Jip


EDIT: when I played against Salvagers, I really hoped I had played the Brain Freeze, after his first MM, cause searching a Bounce for it really gives him much time.. So I think I gonna test it..

[Jaiminho]

Your deck has 56 cards. What are you missing? 4 Tops?

[GreenOne]

this list seems pretty ballsy. LMK how only 2x SW works out, as I've never wanted less than 4x of either top or wraith.

Don't know what "ballsy" mean, hope it's something cool :smile:
I started with 4 SW too, then dropped 1 for 4th Ponder and never got back. Right now I'm testing -3rd SW +1 LDV. I like LDV but I'm still unsure (not much testing time lately.


I would HIGHLY encourage a Doomsday

With the list I'm running I cannot use doomsday to its full potential (going hellbent IT searching it with SDT on table). Relying on Mystical for DD+ Brainstorm/ponder/SW can be good, but still don't know if it's worth it in the SDT less list. I'll try it in place of an IGG.


2 IGG makes you quite dependent on your 'yard.

The outs I'm playing to MD graveyard hate are 2xTendrils plan, SW/Confidant beatdown plan (+ mini tendrils), Wipe Away. Note there are also many times when you can just beat the opponent with the cards you have in hand using IT chains or relying on the opponent life loss.


What kind of meta do you play in?

It's an Aggro-Oriented meta (Goblins, Goyf Sligh, Burn), with a "nice" amount of thresh (low number of CB) and black disruption based decks. That's why I'm still playing Confidant in the board. There's also some Artifact disruption based decks, mainly Stax.

[Mental]

Massacre allows you to play your Meddling Mage removal for multiple mages in a single card protectable with Chant. The major drawback is that Mage often names Chant and makes Massacre much worse. This is probably worse than running a Sudden Death + Doomsday/Brain Freeze from testing.

I meant over, not of. Posting at 12 at night ftl. Massacre seems better than Clasm in almost every situation.

I've also come to the conclusion that an LDV/Mystical Split is the way to go, but I'm still adjusting my numbers. The raw power of LDV is just undeniable, and the card selection it offers is much greater than that of Mystical Tutor.

Ballsy, as defined by Urbandictionary.com:
1. Something which takes balls aka courage to do
2. An object which attains a ball form
3. A response when no other response is available
4. A lesser degree of shady
5. Not quite though

[jegger]

2x IGG is useful only against discard based decks like Pikula or when you can start the combo with LED, LED, IT -> IGG -> IT, LED, LED -> IGG -> ...
With only 1 IGG you can do only 9 storm count, but often your opponent is already at 18 lifes or you can cast for example also a Petal. Only 2 times (1 in tournament -.-) I need a second IGG in my deck in all matches I play with this deck (millions?).
You can cut the second IGG for a Doomsday. You can't search Doomsday with IT after you brake LED without SDT, but you can search it with mystical or LDV, then you have Ponder/Brainstorm/SW to take the draw4 or LED, LED Brainstorm (in the case you cast Brainstorm). Anyway usually I don't search Doomsday with IT after I brake LED because in this case often I have all the mana I need to do a loop of IGG ftw (obv if there is some graveyard hate into play/opponent's hand I choose the way of Doomsday).

About LDV it's a good idea. I still never test it. I have a vacant slot in maindeck so I can fix with this.
About advantages /disavantages:
I like especially that you can Serenity or LED: it's a tutor that can exit from chalice at 1 that is the most used hate against this deck (before chalice at 2 a player often plays chalice at 1 and then a chalice at 0; we can't consider the fact that LDV goes under chalice at CC2 a real disavantage, otherwise nobody plays Serenity, E.Truth,...).
I don't like especially that you need black mana early to cast it. Black mana it's the last mana I fetch for it (sometimes all I need it's only a Petal and island & plains into play)
In any case I think I never play more than 5 tutors that give cards disavantage + there is Doomsday that gives cards disavantage).


It's an Aggro-Oriented meta (Goblins, Goyf Sligh, Burn), with a "nice" amount of thresh (low number of CB) and black disruption based decks. That's why I'm still playing Confidant in the board. There's also some Artifact disruption based decks, mainly Stax.

if you play in a meta like this one I prefer +1 E.Truth -1 Wipe Away and a Doomsday maindeck that can round on graveyard hate usually decks like Goblins, Burn, black disruption black decks play in g2/3.

@Greeone: do you have a nick on tipo1.it?

[GreenOne]

You can cut the second IGG for a Doomsday. You can't search Doomsday with IT after you brake LED without SDT, but you can search it with mystical or LDV, then you have Ponder/Brainstorm/SW to take the draw4 or LED, LED Brainstorm (in the case you cast Brainstorm). Anyway usually I don't search Doomsday with IT after I brake LED because in this case often I have all the mana I need to do a loop of IGG ftw (obv if there is some graveyard hate into play/opponent's hand I choose the way of Doomsday).


If the only way I can use Doomsday is Mystical/LDV into it, I could just tutor for bounce and bounce the graveyard hate. I'm not saying that Doomsday is unuseful in this situation, but i have to ponder if it's better than any other card in its slot (SW,LDV,IGG,Extirpate, Draw4 comes to mind).

Doomsday is good almost like IGG in building up storm to fight life gain, as a simple stack like this:
LED
LED
IT
IGG
Tendrils

builds 11 storm, counting only the D.Rit into Doomsday + Brainstorm.

It's sure as hell I'm in love with Doomsday. I simply have a thing for that card. I'll try to fit it into the deck, but I want to be sure I'm not playing any suboptimal card in my 75.



About LDV it's a good idea. I still never test it. I have a vacant slot in maindeck so I can fix with this.
About advantages /disavantages:
I like especially that you can Serenity or LED: it's a tutor that can exit from chalice at 1 that is the most used hate against this deck.
I don't like especially that you need black mana early to cast it. Black mana it's the last mana I fetch for it (sometimes all I need it's only a Petal and island & plains into play)
In any case I think I never play more than 5 tutors that give cards disavantage + there is Doomsday that gives cards disavantage).


The great advantages Mystical has over LDV (just for comparison) are the better ability to shuffle a brainstorm on turn 1 (subsequently the ability to build more turn 2 kill) and the fact that you can blindly Mystical into Wipe Away against CB decks on turn 1, before CB lands.
If i could, I'd like to play with 4 Mystical+1LDV on G1 and 3 Mystical+2LDV on G2 and G3.
I'm with you on the max 5 tutors that build card disadvantage.


@Greeone: do you have a nick on tipo1.it?
I'm usually confortable with english sites, but I subscribed today with GreenOne as nickname. It's good to see some italian good players around there!

Jegger, I wonder how can you find a free slot in the MD :wink: How does your list look like?

[TeKo]

With the green splash for Grips, why do you still play Wipe Away Main and no Grip?
Which card do you bounce g1, that is no Artifact or Enchantment?

Nobody plays Mage or Teeg MD and if anyone do for Teeg you have your DD->Freeze plan and if they play Mage they normally name Deed, Goyf or something.

[BreathWeapon]

Other than tutoring for LED and stacking the deck, Vault's biggest plus is that it doesn't reveal the card to your opponent. I think once you go 4 Vaults and 0 M.Tutors you wont go back to M.Tutor, Vault is the card that guarantees you the 3rd turn win every time you cast it. The deck has so many 1 drops that it's 2cc really isn't a problem, hell it's even advantageous under Counterbalance.

[emidln]

With the green splash for Grips, why do you still play Wipe Away Main and no Grip?
Which card do you bounce g1, that is no Artifact or Enchantment?

I use Wipe Away to hit untapped lands EOT (taking critical colored mana from opponents) and as a time walk quite a bit hitting an attacker to buy me an extra untap step. Other than bouncing Goyfs and Lands, the only thing I can think of off hand was a True Believer that someone randomly played against me. White creatures could be a problem, but I'm probably willing to accept my losses to Death & Taxes if it somehow see it in a tournament.

LDV wasn't really all that impressive given that I needed to fetch black mana for it. It was also Spell Snared a lot causing my Thrash matchup to plummet. Swamp is terrible for anything other than winning the game, and I found myself losing to Wasteland quite a bit when I had to find an Underground Sea or a Scrubland before I normally would. I don't think I'd play any more than 1 in my 17 land build, and I'm not sure that I'd play any in a more land constricted build where Wasteland can hurt even more.

[BreathWeapon]

Getting Lim Dul's Vault Spell Snared is like Christmas, if people are aiming their counters at your top deck tutors they aren't aiming their counters at your Infernal Tutor.

IDK about Wasteland, I've never had colored mana issues against Goblins, I guess it'd be a pain in the ass against Tempo Threshold tho'.

[emidln]

Getting Lim Dul's Vault Spell Snared is like Christmas, if people are aiming their counters at your top deck tutors they aren't aiming their counters at your Infernal Tutor.

Only jackasses and desperate people get their Infernal Tutors Spell Snared. I rarely played LDV when I had Chant protection because it was always eating my black source on the combo turn. I get to play Mystical because blue mana is a dime a dozen and mostly worthless while comboing.


IDK about Wasteland, I've never had colored mana issues against Goblins, I guess it'd be a pain in the ass against Tempo Threshold tho'.

Wasteland is hardest against the thresh decks. Tempo Threshold goes downhill quickly with LDV because you need to get wasteable mana and give them spell snare targets. If tempo thresh is played in your area, LDV would be definitely unplayable.

[Dark_Cynic87]

I've been getting throttled by Ichorid...my own build, but it's a buddy's deck. His most impressive play was a mulligan down to 6, winning turn 1 on the draw through a chant. That's all I had. To make matters worse, he swung for 36...The only thing that would have saved me was a petal for the kicker on chant and not chanting until after he dreaded back his FKZ. Furthermore, after boarding, I don't know what to 'Pate, or even what else to board in besides Echoing Truth. Extirpating Dredgers is damn near pointless. They shrug and use other ones. Hitting Ichorid is dumb because Ichorid isn't even part of the combo; hence unnecessary against me. I playtested yesterday for 10 hours against Ichorid, and I must say it looks bleak, unless I'm a total retard and missed something quite obvious. Chant's effect is quite minimal against them because in addition to dredging during their upkeep, or timewalking them 2 times with chant (which unless your draw is right stops you from sculpting your hand fast enough to go off before running out of chant effects and getting maulled) on the draw, I daresay it's nigh unwinnable unless you get Echoing Truth down. However, Tutoring into an echoing Truth turn 1 leaves them open to combo off (with them on the play) without a second thought turn 2.

On to the topics at hand, I've been disappointed by Trip Grips, a set of Serenity and 2x 'pates vs. CB. I've been shown the truth in the brutality of CB. I recant my statement that we have a decent game against it. Boarding in 9 cards in high multiples really clogs up my list, and there's not much I can do about it. I'm thinking of dropping Serenity down to 3 and upping grips to 4. This way, I can just board in 4x Grips against CB and leave the 3x Serenity in the board. They are less useful anyway, as CB reveals 2 WAY more than 3. Serenity isn't even completely safe agaisnt Stax, but in conjunction with Grips, it becomes much more effective. Bounce has become less effective in my opinion. I only run 1x Wipe Away in my 75. I keep rushing river and E. Truth for obvious reasons, but Wipe Away has become pretty heavy to cast. I'm thinking of dropping a Scrub for either a Tundra or a Sea, but I can't figure out which I'd rather have. Also, I may go up to 16 lands, as I find myself needing more lands vs. decks I can or need to play a tad bit more conservatively against.

I'm beginning to think that if I want to be able to beat CB, I'm gonna have to go back to the red splash and put in REBs/Pyroblasts instead. They are worse all-around, but I'm not seeing any other options.

Pce,

--DC

[Jaiminho]

How many lands are you running? If Scrubland is the only black source you can fetch with Flooded Strand besides the first Underground Sea, then don't replace it with a Tundra.

[emidln]

I've been getting throttled by Ichorid...my own build, but it's a buddy's deck. His most impressive play was a mulligan down to 6, winning turn 1 on the draw through a chant.

If he did that then you frankly suck as a player. You chant in response to Narcomoeba triggering the first time at worst. You can actually hold chant until they have critical mass to use Dread Return (meaning until they would be able to get 3 critters so, the third Narcomoeba with 1 bridge, the 2nd Narcomoeba with 2 bridges and a therapy, etc).


Furthermore, after boarding, I don't know what to 'Pate

Bridge from Below
Dread Return
Ichorid
Narcmoeba
Cabal Therapy

It depends on the situation, but it'd be highly unlikely I'd ever extirpate anything else.

I've found that 3 Grips, up to 2 Wipe Away, 3 Extirpate has been the perfect amount to consistently beat CB with my build.

[dlevsApiJ]

Your deck has 56 cards. What are you missing? 4 Tops?

Yeah, you're right. I edited it.

[Shriekmaw]

If he did that then you frankly suck as a player.




I don't think it is very wise to make fun of players when your advocating a build that is very bad in terms of being a combo deck.

First, I don't understand how you can cut lotus petal in a combo deck and have people take your seriously.

Second, you added sensei's divining top into the deck which just slow the deck down so much, its really hard for me to understand how this deck is so much better than Iggy Pop. Congrads on making the deck able to lose to aggressive decks now.

Third, seriously why are you playing Doomsday. I may not understand some of your other selections, but this card is complete garbage.

[WiLdFiRe]

I don't think it is very wise to make fun of players when your advocating a build that is very bad in terms of being a combo deck.

First, I don't understand how you can cut lotus petal in a combo deck and have people take your seriously.

Second, you added sensei's divining top into the deck which just slow the deck down so much, its really hard for me to understand how this deck is so much better than Iggy Pop. Congrads on making the deck able to lose to aggressive decks now.

Third, seriously why are you playing Doomsday. I may not understand some of your other selections, but this card is complete garbage.

GTFO. No, really. All the changes above have been tested and have improved the deck. Petal was cut for better cards, top is slower but makes the deck more consistent and Doomday allows for plenty of piles that win without using the graveyard.

[Bovinious]

I don't think it is very wise to make fun of players when your advocating a build that is very bad in terms of being a combo deck.

First, I don't understand how you can cut lotus petal in a combo deck and have people take your seriously.

Second, you added sensei's divining top into the deck which just slow the deck down so much, its really hard for me to understand how this deck is so much better than Iggy Pop. Congrads on making the deck able to lose to aggressive decks now.

Third, seriously why are you playing Doomsday. I may not understand some of your other selections, but this card is complete garbage.

Oh thank God someone else was thinking this also, when I first saw 0/1 Lotus Petals a huge flag went up, and then i saw SDT and Doomsday and was like...this deck cant win one turn 1/2 without drawing the perfect, why not just play ANY other combo deck?


GTFO. No, really. All the changes above have been tested and have improved the deck. Petal was cut for better cards, top is slower but makes the deck more consistent and Doomday allows for plenty of piles that win without using the graveyard.

Dont be so harsh, I dont see how using the GY slower than Ichorid does, or using Storm slower than TES does is good, either. Being able to win on turn 5 in 2 ways is not better than consistently ending the game on turn 1-2.

[Jaiminho]

Seriously, if you don't know what you are talking about, don't even bother. People should come here to post and help to improve the deck, not bash it do death. All changes made so far are for making this deck each time better, not worse, so follow the deck's flow of changes so you can understand things first.

[Mental]

While I don't really agree with EmidIns changes, it annoys me that random people are barging into this thread and going "LOL THAT DECK SUX BCAUSE IT ISNT NORMAL!1!!" That doesn't mean shit. Just because we've been playing a card forever, doesn't mean it's the correct card to play. This deck is built to win in 5 ways on turn 4, yeah, and that's not so strong. What's strong is you have a much better chance of doing it through protection than TES does. For me, it's pick your poison - win before your opponents have protection, or win through it.

[emidln]

I don't think it is very wise to make fun of players when your advocating a build that is very bad in terms of being a combo deck.

You should frankly read why I made fun of him (hint: it's quoted in my post). He lost to being an abysmal player. I have no sympathy for people who lose to obvious situations then make posts about the matchup not being good. I'd rather have fewer good players than more bad players.


First, I don't understand how you can cut lotus petal in a combo deck and have people take your seriously.

I don't understand why you think Lotus Petal is required. FT requires three types of mana in completely different phases of the game. In the first phase, the setup phase, it requires blue mana. We need lots of blue mana to cycle through cantrips and tutors to sculpt our perfect hand. The next phase, the protection phase, requires white mana and sometimes black mana. Here you want to resolve a Chant effect. The final phase is the combo phase, where you generally only need a single black mana to start a ritual chain to win the game. If you look at how the deck casts spells, you'll notice that it wants a lot of blue mana, a moderate amount of white mana, and one black mana. What about this makes Lotus Petal necessary? Lotus Petal's sole function in combo is to accelerate your initial mana sources before you can play the appropriate amount of lands. If you are spending your first 1-2 turns playing land and cantrips, what does Lotus Petal give you? You enter the protection phase with WWB. This is enough mana to get you to the combo phase. You enter the combo phase with your black mana. You now win the game.

Lotus Petal is only required if you want to win on turn 1 or turn 2 because you don't have lands. The issue is that playing on turn 1 and 2, you turn your opponent's effective hard counters for your spells from 4 to 8 in your problem matchup. Why would you want to make your opponent's cards better? I certainly don't. I also don't enjoy the crapshoot of running my single Chant into Daze and continuing to combo knowing I could lose to a second Daze, Spell Snare, Force of Will, or a Stifle effect. If I wanted to roll the dice, I'd play SI or Belcher.

I've yet to run into a compelling reason why I SHOULD include the card. I'd be really interested in hearing it. Everyone else is doing it and Iggy Pop always ran it aren't so compelling to me.



Second, you added sensei's divining top into the deck which just slow the deck down so much, its really hard for me to understand how this deck is so much better than Iggy Pop. Congrads on making the deck able to lose to aggressive decks now.

Congrats on being unable to properly play Sensei's Divining Top. This still has a faster goldfish than Iggy Pop while doing it with more protection and ignoring graveyard hate. Those are pretty big wins. If you're losing to aggressive decks you simply need to learn how to play. Failure to goldfish with light resistance by turn 3 is an indication of either extremely poor decision making or extremely poor drawing. Given that I've played hundred of games against aggro and been significantly screwed on draws less than 20 times, I would heavily learn towards inexperience with the deck causing poor decisions as the reason you're not getting there. I suggest more goldfishing, or perhaps presenting play situations so I can help fix your decision making.


Third, seriously why are you playing Doomsday. I may not understand some of your other selections, but this card is complete garbage.

This makes me think you have no idea how to play combo at all. If you can't see the obvious interactions in the deck with Doomsday, you might want to reexamine what each card in the deck does. It ignores graveyard hate, provides more storm than IGG, doesn't recur enemy hate, increases goldfish speed, and allows you to play around miscellaneous hate like Chalices. The only reason I can come up with for not playing Doomsday is failure to comprehend the Doomsday stacks, which is not really my problem. The card doesn't actually have any downsides as far as I can tell, outside of not being available in Japanese foil.


Oh thank God someone else was thinking this also, when I first saw 0/1 Lotus Petals a huge flag went up, and then i saw SDT and Doomsday and was like...this deck cant win one turn 1/2 without drawing the perfect, why not just play ANY other combo deck?

When you win with this deck you do so with extreme certainty. There is no interaction in the game at all. Your opponent has cards, but they are meaningless. There is no "hope he doesn't have double force", "counter + crypt and I'm screwed", or "random meddling mage, gg". You don't look at a Trinisphere or Chalice and say gg. The deck is designed to be inevitable against hate while still having a faster goldfish than any aggro deck.

As far as needing a perfect draw to win on turn 2, it does it about 20% of the time. I'd be extremely surprised if those hands are considered perfect draws.

Top, Ritual, Mystical Tutor, LED, Land, Land is a turn 2 kill in a goldfish. That's hardly a perfect hand. There are a ton of variations of this, and this is just a Doomsday kill.

[Dark_Cynic87]

You should frankly read why I made fun of him (hint: it's quoted in my post). He lost to being an abysmal player. I have no sympathy for people who lose to obvious situations then make posts about the matchup not being good. I'd rather have fewer good players than more bad players.

Ok, first, I'd like to say that while I agree with almost ALL of what you say, Brandon, your arrogance astounds me. Well, it would, but it's so abundant that I've become accustomed to it, even expectant of it. Secondly, I posted that NOT for your "sympathy", but for advice. Clearly you can't see respect even when it kicks you in the nuts.

I might add that (and check this page and last, it'll confirm it) That I stayed up for quite some time (40+ hours) at the time of my playtesting (the final 10 hours of my time awake, the other 30 were spent on going to class and writing a paper). It's finals week and I'm still allowing myself to have a bit of fun, to the shegrin of my finals scores I'm sure. Play mistakes happen. You make them too. Having said that, I wasn't thinking he'd have a turn 1 kill, as he goldfishes @ 80% wins on turn 2. I've never had a game against him last longer than 3 turns when I was playing FT. In fact, I've had quite a bit more luck beating him with UGr Sun Tower.

I'd like to see your most recent build/what you are playing now, as I'm sure most of us would.

Anyway, no hard feelings, Emidln, but I would take some time to reflect on your attitude. Karma can really be a bitch.

Pce,

--DC

[deviant]

Brandon, your arrogance astounds me. Well, it would, but it's so abundant that I've become accustomed to it, even expectant of it.

Yes, and keep up the good work Brandon. (absolutely no hint of sarcasm intended.)

[Dark_Cynic87]

Yes, and keep up the good work Brandon. (absolutely no hint of sarcasm intended.)

I'd appreciate a bit of input on the deck, not blatant sucking up.

Pce,

--DC

[jjjoness']

So you really have problems with the Ichorid Matchup? I just did a few testing games against it, but it has never been a problem so I didn't even think about doing a lot of testing. The only games you lose to Ichorid should be preboard if you don't have chant on turn 1 and they kill you, or if they make a huge Therapy action. And how often does it actually happen that Ichorid comboes out on turn 1? I think that's just in very few games. Postboard you usually have 3 Pates and 4 Chants to stop them, which should be enough to keep them from winning until you can combo. The point is, when you don't have to worry 'bout protection, you can tutor straight for your combo, and this deck's goldfish still is damn fast.

[GreenOne]

I've yet to run into a compelling reason why I SHOULD include the card. I'd be really interested in hearing it. Everyone else is doing it and Iggy Pop always ran it aren't so compelling to me.


The main advantages in running both SW and Petal are that you can play 2 cantrips on turn 1 and combo off turn 2 using threshed Cabal Rituals. It helps in having the mana to cast a Chant on turn 2 and then win protected. It also helps in going Hellbent IT without a LED. It happens quite often, at least to me.
This by no means should be interpreted (sp?) as the SW+Petal version is better. I see the 2 versions as completely different decks.

The SW+Petal one is trying to combo faster, with a lighter mana base and have some solutions to hate coming in, and the possibility to race it. It's also more grave dependant. The deck have a good combo matchup thanks to it's speed and ability to find chant fast. It's inability to make every land drop and sculpt his hand with SDT makes a worse matchup against Landstill.

The SDT+ more lands slightly worsens the Aggro matchup due to a slower goldfish and more "pay half your life" cards. The aggro matchup is not unfair, but still one sided.
The deck aims at having a protected win every game, and a solution to hate of any kind. Hate is not raced, but it's fought. This explains the Krosan Grips, the Extirpate, the Doomsday and the Brain Freeze.
Sure, the deck is not the fastest combo, it has somewhat the role Solidarity had once: the slowest combo deck that could fight better against counterwalls and permanent based hate. Solidarity could race aggro pretty well and it won on turn 4 usually, for a turn 3 you needed a very good hand. Goblins and Aggro goldfish has not increased, and this deck wins AT LEAST half a turn faster than solidarity.
Slowing down the deck will probably mess with the faster combo matchup, but I didn't test it. It's sure the deck has lost the turn 1 cantrip+petal to have an "active" Orim faster. It has also lost the turn 1 Land, Petal, Mystical ->Orim, SW play.

I'm playing both the versions right now and I can say that they both have advantages and disadvantages. They play in a dfferent way too. And maybe because i first started with the SW+Petal (but i doubt it) but the SDT version is really much more difficult to play, as it allows many more plays and small decisions during the game.


Seriously why are you playing Doomsday. I may not understand some of your other selections, but this card is complete garbage.

@Doomsday. The card is sick in the SDT version as it allows to play around graveyard hate, meddling mage, gaddock, and recurring threats from the graveyard without the need to tutor for bounce. I second anyone that if you tested it and found it just bad you can't see the stacks that can be built. Try looking in the last 3-4 pages, the discussion on some of them is near and can help as example. Ask emidln for some matches and he'll crush you with Doomsday.


I'd like to see your most recent build/what you are playing now, as I'm sure most of us would.


A list up to 4 days ago can be found on the TES vs FT thread here (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9535):

Here's the list:
Fetchland Tendrils (FT)
Played by Emidln

Lands
4 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Island

Spells
1 Wipe Away
1 Cruel Bargain
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Orim's Chant
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
1 Lotus Petal
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Brain Freeze
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Doomsday
1 Extirpate

Sideboard:
SB: 1 Wipe Away
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Rushing River
SB: 4 Serenity
SB: 2 Abeyance
SB: 1 Sudden Death

[jegger]

Jegger, I wonder how can you find a free slot in the MD :wink: How does your list look like?

I'm trying 2 decks: one with and one without SDT.
Anyway they are standard decklists, in the version with SDT I have a slot free because I use 3 SDT and not 4. Both the versions use 4 Petal maindeck.

I continue to prefer the version without SDT that is more slim and linear to play.

With the version with SDT often I miss turns to play sensei paying 1 for revealing cantrip playing cantrip and so on...and I have a considerable decrease of turn 2 kill. Because I reach the idea that 10-11 cantrip (brainstorm, ponder, sensei) are too much, I want to try for a while a version without ponder and with brainstorm/sensei/SW.

In the version without SDT it's also more easy to side in/out because in every game except combo I can side out SW.

[GreenOne]

In the version without SDT it's also more easy to side in/out because in every game except combo I can side out SW.

Yeah, in the SDT version I uually side out Brain Freeze, but I'm always undecided in what other to take out.

I guess the 4 petals in the SDT version are played instead of lands. Didn't you find top less exciting with less lands to work with?

[ACME_Myst]

I want to adress this post to all the people who are saying that adding SDT over SW is bad, cutting Petals is bad, and in general that slowing down is a bad thing, because now you only get to combo on turn 1 10% of the time rather than 20%.

Allow me to let you in on a little secret: This deck isn't combo. Decks like TES, Belcher and Ichorid are combo. This deck is combo-control, which is at the absolute top of the foodchain in terms of archetypes (though not nessicarily this build, but it's getting close).

Unlike more traditional combo style decks like Ichorid and Belcher, which pray their opponent doesn't open with Extirpate or Force of Will respectively (or in the case of TES, double counter), these archetypes are able to mostly ignore their opponents. They have the unmatched ability to constantly find protection and answers when they need it. When so much as 1 piece of this protection slips through the opponents counterwall, it's GG for them. Imagine ******** resolving Force of Will and then winning on the spot, except now they also run 8 tutors to find or find multiples of their protection.

The combo element of these decks allow the pilot to goldfish aggro decks before they even get you in the danger zone, while the control element allows for a lategame traditional combo decks normally lack. Also, I'd like to add that it really doesn't matter if you kill you opponent on turn 2 or on turn 15, a win is a win.

Now, all of these points are of course very obvious, but I get the idea some people forget about them when commenting on Fetchland Tendrils.

Sure, the deck is slower than TES. It still goldfishes consistently with or without protection by turn 4, which should be about a full turn faster than any aggro deck. Sure, Goblins could get the extreme nuts and win on turn 3, at a time when you don't have Chant to timewalk them. However, the odds of you comboing faster than turn 4 are a lot bigger than theirs.

In exchange for this mostly irrelavent loss in speed, the deck get's the ability to fight and win the lategame versus Landstill, ********, Stax, and mostly anything else bluebased. This is something that traditional combo decks are really lacking. Sure, TES can also beat those decks, as can Belcher. But what happens when you try to race them, you fail, and are left in topdeck mode? You pray your opponent doesnt draw more counters, but he will. The second try ends just the same, and eventually that Goyf or Factory will get you down. The decks lack the insane search you get from 11 cantrips and 8 tutors, along with 6 protection spells. And that's just preboard.

To finish up, I'd like to add this: If with the current build you cannot beat aggro, speed up your goldfish or find another deck to play. Go play Belcher, and lose to anything bluebased you'll face in a tournament. Sure, the deck is hard to play. What did you expect, with the insane decision tree coming from all those cantrips and tutors. You go play a fast combo deck, while I'm off to crush ******** once again.

[Bryant Cook]

Some of these points are valid and many others not, my question is what exactly are you controlling as combo-control?

[Jaiminho]

Control is in this deck not as a defensive measure, but as an offensive measure. As strange as that may sound, it's the role cantrips, Top, bounce, Chant and Extirpate have in this deck. Of these, only Chant and maybe Extirpate can be played defensively. In general, control in this deck is not used to help you not die, so you can win later, but it helps you win right through your opponent's defenses.

Summarizing: we control our opponent's control cards.

[Bryant Cook]

Control is in this deck not as a defensive measure, but as an offensive measure. As strange as that may sound, it's the role cantrips, Top, bounce, Chant and Extirpate have in this deck. Of these, only Chant and maybe Extirpate can be played defensively. In general, control in this deck is not used to help you not die, so you can win later, but it helps you win right through your opponent's defenses.

Summarizing: we control our opponent's control cards.

By this definition, TES is a control deck. Brainstorm, Ponder, Draw 4's, Vexing Shusher, Pyroblast and Chant.

[Nihil Credo]

Yeah, I don't like "combo-control" either. The distinction exists, though. I just don't think we currently have a term for "combo that also runs cards to turn off the opponent's disruption", just like we have no term for "aggro that uses discard and light LD to disturb the opponent's game plan" (Suicide Black and its variants).

[GreenOne]

By this definition, TES is a control deck. Vexing Shusher, Pyroblast and Chant.

TES packs some control elements with a cantrip engine.
FT plays more control elements, with cantrips and a draw engine in SDT. It also have a good amount of tutors to gain them and a stable manabase with lots of lands to make constant land drops.

Solidarity used its Fows/Remands/Twincast as control elements when playing against aggro to gain time, they were used as protection when trying to combo.

FT uses its Chants as control elements to slow down aggro when it's needed, and to disrupt opposing combos, its extirpates to slow down Ichorid, its wipe away can be used to gain a turn bouncing a goyf.
All those elements are used as protection for the combo too.

Aluren and Solidarity are the classic examples of Combo-Control archetype IMO, as they pack more lands than a classic combo deck, they're slower and they run more disruption than a classic combo deck. T in its SDT version fulfills all those criteria.

[Brehn]

Whatever. People say that Ichorid is Combo (which is wrong imo), people say that Enchantress is Combo (which is wrong imo), people say that FT is control (which is wrong imo). Also, MossNought is AggroComboControl (what?). Just stop arguing about archetypes, they don't exist anymore. Do some relevant stuff in the meantime (like testing if 2 Doomsdays are necessary - I'm down to one).

[Bryant Cook]

TES packs some control elements with a cantrip engine.
FT plays more control elements, with cantrips and a draw engine in SDT. It also have a good amount of tutors to gain them and a stable manabase with lots of lands to make constant land drops.

Solidarity used its Fows/Remands/Twincast as control elements when playing against aggro to gain time, they were used as protection when trying to combo.

FT uses its Chants as control elements to slow down aggro when it's needed, and to disrupt opposing combos, its extirpates to slow down Ichorid, its wipe away can be used to gain a turn bouncing a goyf.
All those elements are used as protection for the combo too.

Even so, that does not make the deck control. You have controlling cards, not a controlling deck.

[jjjoness']

I think it's rather the point, that FT plays and feels like a control deck. You slowly cantrip and get all the stuff you need to win, until you can play through your opponent's hate. So you usualy play the deck slow and safe, but if needed you can also play fast and goldfishlike, crushing aggro and other stuff without hate.

[Jaiminho]

Even so, that does not make the deck control. You have controlling cards, not a controlling deck.

I was about to answer your other post, then I saw everyone already did. Anyway, I don't like to call it control-combo either. Nihil actually posted exacly what ACME Myst said a while ago: control in this deck is analogue to the control in a Suicide Black deck.

[Dark_Cynic87]

I'll do more testing against ichorid, but now that I've had some sleep and whatnot, I see my stupidity. My mistake was not even thinking (which is so often the case when you are brain-dead) about 'Pating bridges or boarding in E. Truth. You know, the obvious choices that I couldn't even function well enough to make.

I see he's running 3x grips in the board. I've gone up to 4, dropping serenity down to 3x. 3x Serenity is still good against major artifact lists such as Ravager and Stax varients, 4 is unnecessary, but better than this is that Grips is a "right-now" card. Serenity is easily dealt with by an O-Ring. K. Grip can get that Trinisphere off the board right away. Alternatively, Grips are also good against Dragon Stompy. Get's rid of their equipment right away rather than letting them hit you with it again. Before clearing the board.

I am going up to 16 lands, but I can't figure out what to drop for it. I suppose I'll try out the Brain Freeze in place of Tendrils #2. What all does it help against?

Should I drop 1 of my 2 LDV for a 4th Enlightened Tutor? I see Emidln doesn't use them, but some of you others do. I've been running 2x. I guess I could just drop one and toss in the 16th land in that slot...I want the 16th land for another basic (Island) as I've only been running 1/1 on swamp and Island in favor of a maindeck Trop, although another Tundra might be an option as I've been looking more for both white and blue sources. Does anyone else run 2x Scrubs?

Pce,

--DC

[GreenOne]

I suppose I'll try out the Brain Freeze in place of Tendrils #2. What all does it help against?

Should I drop 1 of my 2 LDV for a 4th Enlightened Tutor? I see Emidln doesn't use them, but some of you others do.

Brain Freeze helps against Meddling Mage and Gaddock. That's it. Oh, maybe with solidarity too if that matters. :tongue:

I never tested E. Tutor. Is it any good? Seems horrible G1 when it can really fetch only LED and SDT. Post SB I guess it's a lot better, fetching Serenity and, eventually, Explosives or CounterBalance.
Isn't it too much card disadvantage? Isn't LDV better in its spot? Which slots is it taking in your list?

[Dark_Cynic87]

No, it's crap. I meant a 4th Mystical Tutor. I am indeed playing a 3x M. Tutor/2x LDV split, though Same with Top/Wraith, respectively. I'm really thinking about dropping down to 1x LDV, as it's only really superior against Chalice at 1. It's not really any better against CB.

@ Brain Freeze: Wouldn't it just be better to Death wish into slaughter pact or a bounce spell or even Massacre for against Teeg and Mage? Brain Freeze vs. Solidarity is damn funny, especially when we run Extirpate AND chants...lol.

Pce,

--DC

[GreenOne]

@ Brain Freeze: Wouldn't it just be better to Death wish into slaughter pact or a bounce spell or even Massacre for against Teeg and Mage?

Sure you can. It's just an out more that don't need the usual Mystical or Death Wish for bounce/removal. Just put it into a Doomsday pile and generate a lot of mana with a top on table.
However, if MM and Gaddock are not that present in your meta i guess you don't need to waste that slot and can play death wis in its place. Or maybe you want a Brain Freeze in SB.

[Dark_Cynic87]

I meant Mystical Tutor...sorry.

[b4r0n]

Top, Ritual, Mystical Tutor, LED, Land, Land is a turn 2 kill in a goldfish. That's hardly a perfect hand. There are a ton of variations of this, and this is just a Doomsday kill.

So you'd go:

Turn 1: Land, Top.
Turn 2: Mystical on upkeep for Doomsday, draw into it. Play the second land, LED, Ritual, Doomsday (for Infernal Contract, Petal, Ritual, LED, Tendrils). Activate Top, pop LED, draw and play Infernal Contract. Play Petal, Ritual, LED, Top, activate Top, pop LED, play Tendrils for exactly 20.

Is that right? Or are there other ways of doing it?

Maybe it would be a good idea to post some more sample hands to illustrate how to play the deck to its full potential. Personally, I wouldn't have initially considered playing that hand out for a turn 2 win with Doomsday, so just thinking through that example was pretty helpful for me.

[Mental]

Some of these points are valid and many others not, my question is what exactly are you controlling as combo-control?

Our opponents disruption. We also have the capability to slow down their clock, which TES does also.


Turn 1: Land, Top.
Turn 2: Mystical on upkeep for Doomsday, draw into it. Play the second land, LED, Ritual, Doomsday (for Infernal Contract, Petal, Ritual, LED, Tendrils). Activate Top, pop LED, draw and play Infernal Contract. Play Petal, Ritual, LED, Top, activate Top, pop LED, play Tendrils for exactly 20.


You can also go:
Turn 1: Land, Top
Turn 2: Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, LED, Infernal Tutor (break LED, float BBB), Doomsday (Contract, LED, LED, Lotus Petal, Tendrils), Tap Top, Contract, Petal, Top, LED, LED, Tap Top, Tendrils.

That's basically the same, but it makes more storm.

[GreenOne]

You can also go:
Turn 1: Land, Top
Turn 2: Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, LED, Infernal Tutor (break LED, float BBB), Doomsday (Contract, LED, LED, Lotus Petal, Tendrils), Tap Top, Contract, Petal, Top, LED, LED, Tap Top, Tendrils.

That's basically the same, but it makes more storm.

Sure it makes more storm, it needs a card more! :laugh:
There was no 2nd Dark Ritual involved in the example. You can either Mystical for Infernal or for 2nd Dark Ritual. If you had a 2nd D.Rit you could go with the IGG loop too.

EDIT: Maybe you did want to make another example? If so, my fault, I got it.

[Illissius]

This is probably terrible, but what the hell: Boseiju plus Abeyance would let you go off completely unmolested (by things other than triggered or static abilities).

[Dark_Cynic87]

Boseiju makes around 11 cards in your deck uncounterable. After boarding in my deck the most it could be used for TOTAL is 17-18 cards. 5x of these have Split Second, 2x have Storm, and the others should be under the protection of Chant; this makes Boseiju a total waste of space. If you have 2x Abeyance boarded (I run 1x, and that's only sometimes), you can have an uncounterable Abeyance, but not very often. You only have one way to find the Boseiju, and that's if you are hellbent. Not the stuff sick setup/combo turns are made of. It's just not as useful as a Shusher. Not that I'm advocating that, either. If you want that, just go play TES. Just outthink your opponent. It's not like it's THAT hard...

BTW, here's the current list I'm running, but it seems to change by the testing session...:

//Deck: 60
2x Tendrils
1x 'Pate
1x Wipe Away
4x Chant
1x Bargain
3x Top
4x Ponder
4x Brainstorm
1x DW
1x DD
1x IGG
4x M. Tutor
4x IT
2x Petal
4x LED
4x D. Rit
4x C. Rit

1x Swamp
1x Island
1x Trop
1x Tundra
1x USea
2x Scrub
4x Strand
4x Delta

//Sideboard: 15
4x Grip
3x Serenity
1x Massacre
1x Contract
1x R. River
1x E. Truth
1x 'Pate
1x Slaughter Pact
1x Brain Freeze
1x Abeyance
1x Top/Petal (this depends on what I expect to see; top against more control petal against more aggressive builds)

I'm liking the additional ponder, and it's easily sided out for a top in matchups it's not necessary in. Still haven't wanted the 16th land bad enough to drop down to one Petal. Maybe the 4th Ponder is helping with this, I'm not sure. Also looking into Stifle. It probably seems trivial, and it may be as I haven't tested it, but it could come in quite handy vs. a few things. This is becoming Split-Second Fetchland Tendrils.dec. 'Pates, Grips, Wipe Away...Trickbinding their Top on your go-off turn might not be that much of a stretch, lol (this is a joke, so no one take me serious).

Pce,

--DC

[Jaiminho]

- Sideboarded Contract? What for? That could become the 2nd Abeyance.
- Why not maindeck that 4th Top so you can actually go off with Doomsday, not having to worry about not making enough storm off a complicated situation with a single IGG?
- 2nd Scrubland before the 2nd Underground Sea or the 2nd Tundra?
- From what I've been experiencing, more lands is usually very good with those 4 tops. I don't miss the Petals at all.

[Dark_Cynic87]

- Sideboarded Contract? What for? That could become the 2nd Abeyance.
- Why not maindeck that 4th Top so you can actually go off with Doomsday, not having to worry about not making enough storm off a complicated situation with a single IGG?
- 2nd Scrubland before the 2nd Underground Sea or the 2nd Tundra?
- From what I've been experiencing, more lands is usually very good with those 4 tops. I don't miss the Petals at all.

Contract: Controllish metagame at some point, just never really thought about dropping it, which is wierd 'cause I rarely use it (read: never). It's stupid, so I'll probably drop it.

Single IGG: Not complicated. When I ran 2, I never even needed to chain them. It was like running 59 cards, but worse as it's a lousy topdeck.

4th Top: I really want it...I guess I'll try petal down to 1. The Ponder at 4 is rediculous, I like it.

2nd Scrub: 4x Blue sources (Island, Trop, Sea, Tundra), 4x Black sources (2x Scrub, Sea, Swamp), 3x White sources (Tundra, 2x Scrub), 1x Green source (Trop). Going to Tundra #2 means 5 blue sources, 3 white sources, 3 black sources. Going for Sea #2 means 5 blue sources, 4 black sources, but only 2 white sources. The even split possible. is what's most helpful to me. Maybe my math is crap. I'd like to know if it is.

I don't know about the Petal...God, this is annoying. I guess I'll try an additional land. Don't know if it should be an Island or a plains...I suppose I could do this:

8x Fetches
1x Sea
1x Tundra
1x Trop
2x Scrub
1x Island
1x Swamp

U: 4
B: 4
W: 3
G: 1

For 15...and an additional Plains for a 4/4/4 source split, or an additional Island for a 5/4/3 split. I really NEED the third basic. I don't like getting screwed by Moon Effects (a driving force in my meta...), which leads me to which is better, being able to Wipe Away with just basics, or to be able to have 1 of each color? One would think that UU would be best...What do you think? BTW, this is why the Petal is such a big decision. I could drop petal, fetch the Island, and then any land drop would let me Wipe Away into a win turn 3 (possibly, at least). This also clarifies why I run a Slaughter Pact in the board as opposed to a Sudden Death. It helps with clearing a Magus to use your lands for the combo as opposed to needing BB or UU to get rid of it. Even Death Wishing (yes, I see the BB...) into it adds an additional 1 to a storm count, whereas wishing into a S. Death costs 2BBBB, which is not really a possibility with most hands through a Blood Moon and still comboing off that turn (something that you should do, as 7-8 moon effects and a set of chalices pre-board is a big fuck-you). I suppose this explains SOME of my changes.

Board will now look like this:
//Sideboard: 15
4x Grip
3x Serenity
1x Massacre
1x R. River
1x E. Truth
1x 'Pate
1x Slaughter Pact
1x Brain Freeze (This is a raper to Ichorid: Chant in response to 3rd Narc, Brain Freeze next turn)
2x Abeyance

A question I've been silently harboring is this: Since Serenity and Massacre are the only cards unable to be grabbed by Cunning Wish, would it hurt? Sometimes the life split can be extremely relevant.


Downsides:
--Can't grab 4x Spells from board
--can't grab Tendrils for 1x more storm after Doomsday.
--any other downsides?

Upsides:
--Instant=eot wishing
--No life-loss
--only 1 colored mana in cost
--still grabs Grip, so the inability to grab Serenity is less relevant.
--Grabs Brain Freeze, so not grabbing Tendrils isn't AS bad, plus going C. Wish-->Brain Freeze-->Tendrils is almost equal to a double Tendrils for BB less, so it's still semi-usable in a DD stack.

Thanks for the advice, lmk what you guys think about the wish thing.

Pce,

--DC

[kicks_422]

Do all Doomsday stacks rely on an SDT in play? Are there Doomsday stacks which do not use SDT, kill the same turn, and do not rely on the graveyard?

[Jaiminho]

Single IGG: Not complicated. When I ran 2, I never even needed to chain them. It was like running 59 cards, but worse as it's a lousy topdeck.

I was talking about being able to have more chances in getting SDT on the table so you wouldn't need to worry at all with IGG not getting enough storm. The paragraph below answered it, though.



2nd Scrub: 4x Blue sources (Island, Trop, Sea, Tundra), 4x Black sources (2x Scrub, Sea, Swamp), 3x White sources (Tundra, 2x Scrub), 1x Green source (Trop).

(...)

For 15...and an additional Plains for a 4/4/4 source split, or an additional Island for a 5/4/3 split. I really NEED the third basic. I don't like getting screwed by Moon Effects (a driving force in my meta...), which leads me to which is better, being able to Wipe Away with just basics, or to be able to have 1 of each color?

Actually, it's closer to 12 blue sources, 12 black sources, 11 white sources and 9 green sources in your list (not counting that when fetching something, all sources are down by one), so the difference is not that relevant. But, since you actually need more blue sources than anything else, you might want to lower white to 10 or black to 11 and get that blue up by one.

With the high availability of each needed color, you should get yourself that basic Plains for Serenity against Blood Moon. Magus will still be there, though. The thing is that you need to be able to combo under a Moon, so I'd guess one of each basic land is a necessity.



--Grabs Brain Freeze, so not grabbing Tendrils isn't AS bad, plus going C. Wish-->Brain Freeze-->Tendrils is almost equal to a double Tendrils for BB less, so it's still semi-usable in a DD stack.

Casting Brain Freeze and then Tendrils leaves your opponent half dead and half decked. He won't be dead in either way.



Thanks for the advice, lmk what you guys think about the wish thing.

Death Wish was considered for being able to get anything from our sideboards to answer stuff and it ended up helping on the kill a very small little bit. Cards most fetched are Serenity, Extirpate and Tendrils. Cunning Wish helps with wishing for a good answer (Extirpate) and basically that's it. Emidln already dropped Death Wish after he got Extirpate into the MD and I'm on the way of dropping it too (Extirpate MD, also), since I never get to use it unless I really need that extra storm, which I don't recall happening, since somehow I would be able to get all that mana without getting all that storm.



Do all Doomsday stacks rely on an SDT in play? Are there Doomsday stacks which do not use SDT, kill the same turn, and do not rely on the graveyard?

If you don't use LED to ramp mana up for Doomsday, you might have draws in hand, so no SDT is required. You can keep the single LED on the board and wait until you cast Brainstorm (if you don't need to trade cards) or Ponder or Draw4 to crack it in response.

[emidln]

Sensei's Divining Top is just used with Doomsday most often because it doesn't require a hand to start abusing your Doomsday pile. This enables more broken interactions with Lion's Eye Diamond (although LED is still useful with Doomsday stacks involving Brainstorm and Ponder). The only real requirement for playing Doomsday and winning this turn is having at least 2 life (plus whatever your stack might require (4 life is required if you want to Doomsday again or cast a Draw4 for example)) and some way to draw a card post Doomsday. A favorite stack of mine is [LED, LED, Brainstorm, IGG, Tendrils] and its derivative [LED, Petal, Brainstorm, IGG, Tendrils]. These require 3 total cards in hand after resolving Doomsday and either UU or U and an LED on the table to generate a minimum of 9 storm + Tendrils. The Doomsday stacks change greatly depending on your hand, your opponent's disruption, what kind of storm is necessary, and what win condition you want to use.

[Dark_Cynic87]

No, not all dd stax rely on Top, though most do. If you have the blue mana with Brainstorm/Ponder in hand AND M. Tutored/Drew into/topped into Doomsday, and you don't need to pop LED for the mana to go off, you can do that.

so:

BBB BBB BU being the necessary elements, and then grab petal for 1x storm without the need of mana, or grab top if you have an additional 1 for an additional spell instead, or Chant if you have BBB BBB BU and are still capable of producing W without popping LED. Chant would be for fear of Stifle or some such screw-over.

Doomsday into:

1.) Bargain/Contract
2.) Petal/Top/Chant
3.) Dark Ritual
4.) Either Ritual
5.) Tendrils

Then spend U leaving at least BBB in your mana pool, BBBW for chant pile, BBB1 for top pile. Draw Bargain, Petal/top/Chant/LED. Keep Bargain, play bargain hitting Petal/Top/Chant, Rit, Rit, Tendrils. This leaves either, B/1B/WB in your mana pool. Play petal/Top/Chant respectively, Rit, Rit, Tendrils. This of course is much less of a prominent play than Topping into a Doomsday stack.

Pce,

--DC

[Dark_Cynic87]

Actually, it's closer to 12 blue sources, 12 black sources, 11 white sources and 9 green sources in your list (not counting that when fetching something, all sources are down by one), so the difference is not that relevant. But, since you actually need more blue sources than anything else, you might want to lower white to 10 or black to 11 and get that blue up by one.


And what would be the best way to do said upping and downing of the colors? If I go up to 16 lands, 3 WILL be basic.


With the high availability of each needed color, you should get yourself that basic Plains for Serenity against Blood Moon. Magus will still be there, though. The thing is that you need to be able to combo under a Moon, so I'd guess one of each basic land is a necessity.

That's why Petals were so hard for me to let go of. Death Wishing into Slaughter Pact is most of the time the only way to get out from under a Magus. Having to Dark Rit away Pact's drawback is a disadvantage, but then I can 'Pate the hate.

Right now I'm at 16 lands. My original land count +1 Island. I'm gonna test a plains, though, also.


Casting Brain Freeze and then Tendrils leaves your opponent half dead and half decked. He won't be dead in either way.

ehm....Disagree with you here. Top on table. Swamp into Rit, Threshed Cabal Rit (BBB BBB) (or some combination of rit effects), LED, IT popping LED for BBB (BBB BBB B). IT into DD, leaving you BBB B.

Doomsday pile:
Bargain, petal, LED, Brain Freeze, Tendrils.

Top into bargain, bargain into petal, top, LED, Brain Freeze.

BBB B in mana pool. Play top. BBB left. Play Petal. BBB left. Play LED. BBB left. Sac petal, BBBU left. Brain Freeze (BB left) and pop LED in response (BBB BB left). tap top, draw Tendrils.

storm for: 19 with Tendrils...38 life, right? Who cares about the Brain Freeze in that situation, it's essentially double Tendrils for 1U. Math might be off, I suck at math. Especially off the top of my head. This is especially bad when playing storm...I do know it's a kill-shot, though.



Death Wish was considered for being able to get anything from our sideboards to answer stuff and it ended up helping on the kill a very small little bit. Cards most fetched are Serenity, Extirpate and Tendrils. Cunning Wish helps with wishing for a good answer (Extirpate) and basically that's it. Emidln already dropped Death Wish after he got Extirpate into the MD and I'm on the way of dropping it too (Extirpate MD, also), since I never get to use it unless I really need that extra storm, which I don't recall happening, since somehow I would be able to get all that mana without getting all that storm.


Still a big part of my list as I have to play against Ichorid (I can grab E. Truth first game as well as 'Pate #2 quickly by going Rit, Wish, even popping an LED in response for UUU or whatever.) It's also an out against Magus.

I'm running Extirpate MD also, and it's just not enough in my meta to justify dropping the Wish. In a general meta, such as GP Denver in August, I will probably drop it (actually, I need help deciding this...). Probably for a 4th Brainstorm. I dropped 1 in favor of 1x Ponder (up to 4x now along with 4x Top). The shuffle effects are really that important to me.

Pce,

--DC

[Mental]

Sure it makes more storm, it needs a card more! :laugh:
There was no 2nd Dark Ritual involved in the example. You can either Mystical for Infernal or for 2nd Dark Ritual. If you had a 2nd D.Rit you could go with the IGG loop too.

EDIT: Maybe you did want to make another example? If so, my fault, I got it.

I was just showing that you could use Infernal Tutor over Mystical Tutor to go off on turn 2, through Daze, also.

BTW, has anyone considered running a speed build with a Doomsday Sideboard plan? The list would be fairly standard, MBing 4 petals and no Doomsday, and playing Double Tendrils. The SB would play 3 Top, 1 Doomsday, and 3 Lands. The idea would be that after game 1, people board in their graveyard hate, and you bring in a kill condition that doesn't use the 'yard.

Thoughts?

[Jaiminho]

ehm....Disagree with you here. Top on table. Swamp into Rit, Threshed Cabal Rit (BBB BBB) (or some combination of rit effects), LED, IT popping LED for BBB (BBB BBB B). IT into DD, leaving you BBB B.

Doomsday pile:
Bargain, petal, LED, Brain Freeze, Tendrils.

Top into bargain, bargain into petal, top, LED, Brain Freeze.

BBB B in mana pool. Play top. BBB left. Play Petal. BBB left. Play LED. BBB left. Sac petal, BBBU left. Brain Freeze (BB left) and pop LED in response (BBB BB left). tap top, draw Tendrils.

storm for: 19 with Tendrils...38 life, right? Who cares about the Brain Freeze in that situation, it's essentially double Tendrils for 1U. Math might be off, I suck at math. Especially off the top of my head. This is especially bad when playing storm...I do know it's a kill-shot, though.

Storm copies the spell and puts each copy on the stack already, it doesn't play them. You'll have 9 storm before casting Freeze (the 10th spell). If you want to play Freeze now and then Tendrils, you'll have 30 cards in your opponent's graveyard and 22 life hits for him. He'll be dead, but it would be the same even if Freeze wasn't there, unless he's playing Life.dec. Anyway, in your example, you didn't take into account BBB used to cast Bargain.



And what would be the best way to do said upping and downing of the colors? If I go up to 16 lands, 3 WILL be basic.

8 Fetches
2 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Scrubland
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp

I'd run this. I'm on 17, adding to this one Underground Sea and still debating if I'm going to get Grip on the sideboard, so Trop is an Island. Anyway, blue is required by turn 1 and is useful in multiples for more than one cantrip per turn. White, depending on your opponent, is required also by turn 1 (time walking), but usually it is needed later (protection when going off). At last, black is the last color you are looking for, unless you are against aggro, for which you will need black at most on turn 3. Still, you have to consider things like Extirpate, Death Wish costing BB and stuff like that which kinda screw part of what I just wrote.

[Dark_Cynic87]

ehm....Disagree with you here.

ehm....I'm a tool. Oh well. I might try that mana base. Thx.

[Misplayer]

To the FT adepts: about how many matches does it take to start to be able to see multiple paths to the win and identify the optimal choice? From messing around with this deck I've gotten decidedly better at it, but I'm almost positive that I'm frequently missing 1 or 2 routes to the win and probably the optimal way to get there. Is this something that can be learned through increased familiarity with the deck?

[kicks_422]

Increased familiarity with the deck allows you to see all the options you can do to win. This deck is full of decisions you have to make, and being familiar with the deck, the deck you're against, and the situation of the game will help you sift out the right decision. Just continue playing it and you'll start seeing what I mean.

[Shriekmaw]

2x Tendrils
1x 'Pate
1x Wipe Away
4x Chant
1x Bargain
3x Top
4x Ponder
4x Brainstorm
1x DW
1x DD
1x IGG
4x M. Tutor
4x IT
2x Petal
4x LED
4x D. Rit
4x C. Rit

1x Swamp
1x Island
1x Trop
1x Tundra
1x USea
2x Scrub
4x Strand
4x Delta




I would like to discuss the list from above with explanations on the following card selection.

I believe the land selection is just fine with the maximum use of 8 fetches.

I would make the following changes if I played this list with top in it.

+2 Lotus Petal
+1 IGG
-1 Ponder
-1 Doomsday
-1 Death Wish

I just don't like having Death Wish or Doomsday in the deck whats so ever. I can see the justification behind adding top for street wraith. I don't agree with the switch b/c it slows down the deck and doesn't add to threshold.

Thats the same argument I would use with lotus petal. You are sacrificing too much speed and threshold ability in favor of a slower draw engine in top.

I believe Doomsday and Death Wish is just too unreliable to use in a combo deck which main focus is trying to win ASAP. This is the one reason I like the old version of the deck, the ability to beat aggro. I think you are opening yourself too much to that matchup which should basically be a bye for a combo deck.

Some discussion on why this is so much better than the first list of fetch land tendrils.

[kicks_422]

I don't see how Doomsday slows the deck down. By itself, it's an option to stack the deck into whatever you want to squeeze out from it.

[Shriekmaw]

I don't see how Doomsday slows the deck down. By itself, it's an option to stack the deck into whatever you want to squeeze out from it.


When I'm casting a triple BBB spell, I want to win the game and this card does not do that. You have to wait a full turn to win and I don't like giving my opponent additional turns when playing combo.

The only triple BBB spell in the deck should be a draw 4, thats it.

[jjjoness']

When I'm casting a triple BBB spell, I want to win the game and this card does not do that. You have to wait a full turn to win and I don't like giving my opponent additional turns when playing combo.

The only triple BBB spell in the deck should be a draw 4, thats it.

With some acceleration and either SDT in play or Ponder/Brainstorm in hand Doomsday wins immediately. I wouldn't cast DD if I wasn't able to win right now, unless there was no other way to do it, and then DD is just perfect to set up a safe kill.

[Dark_Cynic87]

I've non-lethal tendrils'ed before to get out of range of their kill, doomsdayed that turn after the tendrils, and passed. I got enough storm out of it to go lethal with the second Tendrils the next turn. I couldn't gas enough to get lethal the first time, but it got me close enough to feel comfortable both in life and in card advantage to pass and still win. I didn't have a Tutor in hand. Doomsday and ToA were in my hand. Went off for non-lethal tendrils on turn 3, won turn 4.

Otherwise, Doomsday is a Win-now card. Draw-4's are only useful to reload your hand or in conjunction with Doomsday. Stringing them sux for consistancy...

Pce,

--DC

[kicks_422]

You have to wait a full turn to win and I don't like giving my opponent additional turns when playing combo.

Then you're not playing the card right. I never cast Doomsday unless I can win that same turn, or am sure of winning next turn (e.g. Chant on their upkeep against aggro, no pressure at all from a Sui- Black style deck, etc.)

BTW, is Krosan Grip really needed? The older versions refused to splash green only for it, why did that change?

[ACME_Myst]

Probably the increased Extirpate count, so you can now destroy and get rid of Counterbalance for good.

[Mental]

To the FT adepts: about how many matches does it take to start to be able to see multiple paths to the win and identify the optimal choice? From messing around with this deck I've gotten decidedly better at it, but I'm almost positive that I'm frequently missing 1 or 2 routes to the win and probably the optimal way to get there. Is this something that can be learned through increased familiarity with the deck?

It really depends on your intelligence. No joke, it takes a different amount of matches for each person. However, if you goldfish an hour a day against disruption x and clock y, you should get it in a few days.

On Krosan Grip - It seems like a strong sideboard option. This deck isn't as scared of Counterbalance as a lot of other combo decks, but it's still hard to beat when backed by a strong clock. I'm going to plug my sideboard as a good option in most metas:

1 Tropical Island
2 KGrip
4 Serenity
2 Echoing Truth
1 Rushing River
1 Massacre
2 Extirpate
1 Infernal Contract
1 Wipe Away

Doomsday is a powerful option in this deck but should only be played as a one of because it is a highly situational wincon - you need to top of BStorm to make it work.

Here's the routes I take when playing this deck:
Against aggro -
IGG/Brainstorm + Doomsday
Against aggro - control like Threshold
Doomsday/Double Tendrils
Against blue based control like Landstill
Resolved Orim's Chant + IGG. Extirpate is really helpful here.
Against discard
IGG/Doomsday. Top is really helpful here.

I haven't had time to test my alternative sideboard idea: control tendrils to a more traditional FT list to a doomsday list postboard, or visa versa.

[Jaiminho]

I've non-lethal tendrils'ed before to get out of range of their kill, doomsdayed that turn after the tendrils, and passed.

Just want to point out that casting Doomsday first and then Tendrils makes you have more life points, since you are not losing half of a bunch, but half of a bit and then winning a bunch.

[rsaunder]

That, and +1 storm from doomsday is always nice.

[dlevsApiJ]

My latest list, I want to play 17 (maybe 16) lands, but I really dont know that to cut..

This is my list:

// Lands
1 [A] Tundra
1 [B] Underground Sea
1 [MM] Swamp
1 [ST] Plains
1 [U] Scrubland
2 [PT] Island
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Spells
1 [PT] Cruel Bargain
1 [AL] Lim-Dul's Vault
1 [TSP] Wipe Away
1 [TE] Lotus Petal
1 [PLC] Extirpate
1 [WL] Doomsday
2 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains*
2 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
3 [LRW] Ponder
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [MI] Mystical Tutor
4 [MM] Dark Ritual
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [5E] Brainstorm

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [A] Tropical Island
SB: 1 [UL] Rebuild
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [PS] Rushing River
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [WL] Abeyance
SB: 1 [SC] Brain Freeze**
SB: 2 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 4 [WL] Serenity

* Still play 2, because you can't go: (when you have 2 mana) 2x Led (2 Storm) -> I Tutor (3) -> IGG (4) (take back 2x Led and Tutor) -> 2x Led (6) -> I Tutor (7) -> I Tutor (8) -> Tendrils (9), with only 1 Igg. Against any non-blue deck, I really like this kill, and with only 1 Igg you can only make 9 Storm
** Play it in SB instead of D Wish, against M Mage and Extirpate.. But I dont know if there is a better alt. win condition..

So what do you guys think I can cut the best.. (I think it will be 1 Igg and 1 LDV..)

Jip

[GreenOne]

2 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains*
* Still play 2, because you can't go: (when you have 2 mana) 2x Led (2 Storm) -> I Tutor (3) -> IGG (4) (take back 2x Led and Tutor) -> 2x Led (6) -> I Tutor (7) -> I Tutor (8) -> Tendrils (9), with only 1 Igg. Against any non-blue deck, I really like this kill, and with only 1 Igg you can only make 9 Storm


Against non-blue decks you just need another accelerator (D.Ritual, LED, Petal or Cabal), a Ponder that draws a dark ritual or a Lotus petal, a mystical during upkeep for a Dark Ritual, a sensei played on turn 1 (go for Doomsday, tendrils for 20). The opponent could have fetched/thoughtseized or whatever takes 2 life from him. The only instance when somehow I'd want a second IGG is when the first get discarded, which is unlikely.

As you see, there are lots of roads to the kill in that situation, that requires just 1 card more out of your hand OR a sensei played the turn before. That's why I suggest cutting the second IGG for the 16th land, if not, just cut LDV.

[dlevsApiJ]

I Think I go:

MB
-1 IGG
-1 M Tutor*
+1 Tropical Island
+1 Tundra

SB:
-1 Trop. Island
+1 Massacre

*I dont want to cut the LDV, because when you really! need a LED/Serenity, you can go M Tutor -> LDV, search for it. Ok its great card-disadvantage, but sometimes you really need 1 of those cards, and with cantrips/TOP it goes faster to draw those cards..

[Dark_Cynic87]

Just want to point out that casting Doomsday first and then Tendrils makes you have more life points, since you are not losing half of a bunch, but half of a bit and then winning a bunch.

I would normally do this, but the situation was a bit different. I was playing against burn. I couldn't risk dropping down 8 life (@ 16 from a couple fetches and a SW) when he had RR open with a few cards in his hand (easy enough to go Bolt Bolt Blast). I didn't have chant backup (sometimes you just don't). Against burn you have exactly 4 turns (without Chant-walking, not that it matters a whole lot as they have quite a few instants), and I wanted to go off quick. Went off with 5x stormed Tendrils (from 16 life to 28) and stayed at 14 after Doomsdaying, pretty much out of reach, winning the next turn with chant protection (via Doomsday). He responded to chant with a bolt and a blast, but it didn't matter. I had more than 2 life left, so I won.

Pce,

--DC

[GreenOne]

I'm having some problems in siding in the SDT version. With the Wraith version you usually just side out the Wraiths and you're done, but how do you guys side versus common matchups like thresh, landstill, ichorid...?

I'm also missing the confidants in the board. They helped a lot in the control/aggrocontrol matchup, expecially against black threshold (it has no removal for confi).
I'm currently running them because people nowadays think that FT doesn't play creatures, so they side their removal out anyway.

Here's the list I'm testing ATM:
// Lands
1 [A] Underground Sea
1 [ST] Swamp (1)
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [MM] Island (3)
1 [U] Scrubland
1 [U] Tundra
1 [P3] Plains (1)
1 [B] Tropical Island

// Spells
4 [5E] Brainstorm
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
2 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [A] Dark Ritual
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
3 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MI] Mystical Tutor
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
1 [TSP] Wipe Away
3 [LRW] Ponder
1 [PT] Cruel Bargain
1 [6E] Doomsday
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
SB: 1 [OV] Abeyance
SB: 3 [WL] Serenity
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [SC] Brain Freeze
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [PS] Rushing River
SB: 1 free slot.

[Mental]

Ok, so here's a small tournament report:

6 People show up.

I'm playing an old FT list:
8 Fetches
2 Island
1 Sea
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Plains
1 Swamp

4 Lotus Petal
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
4 LED

4 Infernal Tutor
4 Mystical Tutor

4 Street Wraith
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder

2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Infernal Contract

4 Orim's Chant
1 Extirpate
1 Wipe Away

SB
4 Serenity
2 Echoing Truth
1 Trop
2 KGrip
2 Extirpate
1 Wipe Away
1 Rushing River
1 Massacre
1 Infernal Contract

Match 1, Game 1 vs. Bwg Homebrew.
I have the turn one win, but he's on the play. Great. He leads with Dark Rit -> Thoughtseize my Infernal Tutor -> Dark Confidant. I draw gas the next few turns and he Hymns me twice. At some point Goyf comes down and I'm forced to Tendrils him to 3. He Swords Confidant and kills me in a few turns.
Game 2 I take out a Wipe Away and bring in an Infernal Contract.
I go first, but I don't have the win. He leads with a Thoughtseize, taking my Infernal Tutor again, but I Mystical for another one EOT. I still can't win, and he Verdicts + Hymns me. I pull of Infernal Contract, but I don't draw the win and it's too late.
0-1

Match 2, Game 1 vs. Burn
He Bolt me. I win.
Game 2 I board in nothing.
He Bolts me. I draw. He bolts me twice. I win.

Match 3, Game 1 vs. Rgb Goblins with Maindeck Thorn of Amethyst
I keep a one land hand that can win on turn 2 if Brainstorm hits anything relevant. He wastes and it doesn't, so I lose to Lackey + Thorn and 2 Turns of dead draws.
Game 2 I take out Extirpate, Wipe Away, and 4 Street Wraiths for 4 Serenity and 2 Echoing Truth.
I fetch basics incase he plays Blood Moon. He drops Thorn and starts beating down, and I can't draw anything relevant -- not even an out.

Was this bad luck, or some fundamental problem with the way I'm playing the deck?

[nodahero]

From personal expericne with this deck and every version leading up to it I would say your homebrew matchup was just a case of bad luck. I did get it worse once though. I had literally a perfect 7 card hand one time. 2 Petal, Chant, Plains, 2 LED, and Infernal tutor. Only problem. He went first going. Fetch into scrub into rit rit Hymm Hymm, Yea I didnt do to hot after that. He had one advantage in that game. He knew my deck inside and out since we had been testing against it the day before with a homebrewed sneak attack deck.

The second game was fairly typical. Although generally we are not quite that efficent in our combo turns... or at least I am not. Generally I win that match at around 11 life. Not counting my self inflicted damage which I try to avoid in that matchup.

The third game the jury is out on mainly due to a lack of information. For example what would be considered relevant in that game where you needed to find something of relevance off of Brainstorm? As for the second game I dont think I would have brought in the Serenities personally although Ace is a better person on that topic. I do know brining in the Echoing was a decent idea. Breaking the fetch for a basic was prolly a decent idea although again it depends on whats going on. i.e. had you taken a fetch what plays would that have given you in addition to what you got for plays off the basic. Overall given typical scenarios however it sounds like in this match they also got the god openings although it is impossible to know since you didnt say what he brought in off his lacky.

[GreenOne]

Was this bad luck, or some fundamental problem with the way I'm playing the deck?

It's not all that bad luck on your side, but a lot of luck on the other side of the table.
However, in that meta you could do some changes to the deck, cause I noticed you played against blue a grand total of zero times.
- I'd consider dropping the wraiths for SDT. Tops are good in any discard matchup and this was your worst mathup of the day.
- I'd consider dropping the maindeck Extirpate for Ponder: you faced only discard and permanent based hate, extirpate is not that great here.
- The only permanent based hate you faced is Thorn of Amethist. Krosan Grip is useless in this spot. I'd go with -2 Krosan Grip -1 Tropical +3 Dark Confidant.


And next time I play vs Burn I'd go with -1 Wipe Away, -1 Extirpate +2 Echoing Truth.

Your meta is possibly the best one to bring a deck like FT, but it's even better for TES, given the lack of blue and the "sorcery speed" of anything problematic you could encounter.
It's also lovely to see that you didn't face graveyard hate at all.
Next time, just go there and rape everyone in the room.

[jegger]

I'm having some problems in siding in the SDT version. With the Wraith version you usually just side out the Wraiths and you're done, but how do you guys side versus common matchups like thresh, landstill, ichorid...?

Yeah with the SDT-version it's more difficult to side in/out, but it's not impossibile.

For example against Angel Stax & Dragon Stompy I side out easily (like all people) the 4 Chants and Wipe Away (if I am in a blue heavy meta). Then I side out also a ToA: you never win with double ToA plan and your opponent usually gives you an hand decreasing his lifes with Ancient Tomb and mana burn. Also I side out Ponder that is the less relevant spell at CC1: if you keep an hand with more than one drop at CC1 usually you play before the other drop at CC1 instead of Ponder. I put some examples:
Do you prefer to play before a Sensei or Ponder if you are on the play against Angel Stax? Sure SDT that can help you both to search lands and to draw no cards at CC1 if opponent plays a Chalice at 1.
Do you prefer to play first a Ponder or keep mana open to play a Mystical in response to Chalice at 1 if you are on the play against Dragon Stompy? Sure Mystcal.
And so on....
So you can cut against these matchups Orim, Ponder, ToA and Wipe Away for others 9 cards: Serenity, Rushing River, E.Truth and Confidant (against Dragon Stompy I prefer Dark Confidant respect to Krosan Grip you can't play with a Moon effect into play). Ah you don't play the tutorable Rebuild, ahi ahi ahi.

Against Ichorid it's easy: you cut Wipe Away, a ToA and a SDT for E.Truth, the Extirpate and Abeyance. Why in this case SDT and no Ponder?
Because Ichorid it's a combo deck and Ponder allows to look the top 3 cards at a minor cost than SDT. You need speed in this matchup.
Same side in/out against TES. Someone side in Dark Confidant in this matchup (and mirror) because in this mode you can play more defensively: you can beat your opponent with DC while your opponent search a manner to round on your Orim. I'm not sure this is the right movement, usually you can't play fast DC because you need a W open also for bluff so usually you can play DC only in the third turn (or second with Petal) and you already have SDT that can give you a qualitative draw if you play defensively. Well I'm not sure about this my thought: I never test against TES in real, I don't know many TES players in my area (except me).

Against Threshold the side in/out depends from the color build of Threshold.

Against UGR, your opponent doesn't use Extirpate, Meddling Mage and Counterbalance so you don't need Wipe Away, Brain Freeze and Krosan Grip. You can't side in many cards against this matchup: only an Abeyance and an Extirpate (but I'm not sure these cards are really effective: Abeyance goes under Spell Snare build and often you haven't the time to play Extirpate: first Orim (often FoWwed), Extirpate on FoW, second Orim, bla bla bla 10 storm counts.
You can cut the bouncer and a Ponder or a SDT in this matchup, but these changes don't alter the percentages of win. I don't side in DC against a deck with many burn effects if I'm not sure that my opponent side out at least all Bolt (at least).

Against UGW there is more hate against combo in the form of Meddling Mage and Counterbalance.
In this case you can side in a Brain Freeze (or Massacre) if you know that your opponent plays Mage, the Grp if you know that your opponent plays Counterbalance, the Abeyance and Extirpate. Here I prefer to side out Ponder instead of SDT because UGW is more control than UGR. You can try to use DC, but if my opponent uses Snare, StP and Explosives I don't side in them.

Against UGB it's more difficult. It's a nightmare matchup like Dreadstill and others TrinketTopSolution matchups. Usually your opponent has both Counterbalance and Thoughtseize maindeck plus noisy cards like Extirpate, Wasteland & Spell Snare. In this case I'm not sure about the right side in/out. You can side too many cards, but I think that side in Dark Confidant is right, your opponent has only Smother and Spell Snare plus sometime Explosives against it.
In addition you can side in Krosan Grip, Abeyance and Extirpate. Perhaps too many cards? Yeah this is the other reason (beyond a weaker manabase) because I don't use Krosan Grip: a card that don't change too many the percentages of win and you can't side out too many cards because you risk to distort the deck. You can cut a ToA, Ponders and then? some Petal? a ToA? and then? You risk to distort too much your deck.
An example I do 3 games against Dreadstill. I do 1-2, 0-2, 2-0 and all the times my opponent plays Counterbalance, he wins. I don' try to improver a so bad matchup, instead I prefer to improve more balanced matchup (for example Rebuild against Stax or another Extirpate against Ichorid).

Landstill: too many various decklists.
Usually I side in Abeyance and Extirpate sure. Then I side in Brain Freeze if I know (or doubt) that my opponent plays Mage or Extirpate. I side out all Ponder beacuse SDT is too much strong in this matchup and usually the second ToA because with this build I see that it's more difficult to win with double ToA. ah usually I keep maindeck Wipe Away (other solution to Mage, surpreise fucking cards like Arcane Laboratory,....). Time ago I side out 1 LED, but with decklist I presume you need all the LED because of Doomsday.
About DC, well I'm not sure I need them in this matchup: usually at least there are 6 removals (StP and Explosives at least), plus with this decklist now we has SDT that can take partially the role of Confidant, so usually I don't side in but it's a choice that depends from many factors, so we can't decide pre-emptively.

I hope this is enough......

@Mental: I think you can change your decklist if you play in a meta like that.
Really you don't need cards like Extirpate, Wipe Away, Krosan Grip.
When I play with my friends I use E.truth maindeck because I know that nobody uses Counterbalance in my playtest group; instead when I go to tournaments I value the possibility to put Wipe Away maindeck.
Again (like I wrote some posts ago), there isn't a definitive FT-decklist, but a good decklist in the right metagame. Anyway in that meta I bring TES (maybe with Wheel of Fate tech in SB).

[Illissius]

Given that both Wraith and Top can be Needled, and both can be sided out; and that opponents like Needling Top but not Wraith, and you like siding out Wraith but not Top; is that evidence for Top being the stronger choice, or is there something wrong with this sort of logic?

[Iranon]

I'm rather convinced Empty the Warrens should exist as a one-of at least. With Mystical Tutor, Street Wraith and LED as well as a bunch of cantrips, I have found myself in otherwise bad positions where I could get a bunch of goblins very easily.

LED, cycle Wraith, crack LED in response and play a medium-sized EtW after some minor junk isn't impressive but the play demands very few resources; it is often possible after an opponent countered something, easily castable after a chant early on and can blindside opponents completely.

I hate to rely on EtW as a main win condition, but it's a decent out against many things and this deck actually has more synergy with it than most.

[GreenOne]

Given that both Wraith and Top can be Needled, and both can be sided out; and that opponents like Needling Top but not Wraith, and you like siding out Wraith but not Top; is that evidence for Top being the stronger choice, or is there something wrong with this sort of logic?

Top is quite useful in comboing with Doomsday, so it's difficult to side it out.
Top is surely better postside when people is bringing hate and Doomsday works aroud it.
So your logic is flawed: Top is simply better postside.
And noone did ever side Needle against me (they should though).

[Dark_Cynic87]

Ok, so here's a small tournament report:

6 People show up.

I'm playing an old FT list:
8 Fetches
2 Island
1 Sea
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Plains
1 Swamp

4 Lotus Petal
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
4 LED

4 Infernal Tutor
4 Mystical Tutor

4 Street Wraith
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder

2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Infernal Contract

4 Orim's Chant
1 Extirpate
1 Wipe Away

SB
4 Serenity
2 Echoing Truth
1 Trop
2 KGrip
2 Extirpate
1 Wipe Away
1 Rushing River
1 Massacre
1 Infernal Contract

Match 1, Game 1 vs. Bwg Homebrew.
I have the turn one win, but he's on the play. Great. He leads with Dark Rit -> Thoughtseize my Infernal Tutor -> Dark Confidant. I draw gas the next few turns and he Hymns me twice. At some point Goyf comes down and I'm forced to Tendrils him to 3. He Swords Confidant and kills me in a few turns.
Game 2 I take out a Wipe Away and bring in an Infernal Contract.
I go first, but I don't have the win. He leads with a Thoughtseize, taking my Infernal Tutor again, but I Mystical for another one EOT. I still can't win, and he Verdicts + Hymns me. I pull of Infernal Contract, but I don't draw the win and it's too late.
0-1

Match 2, Game 1 vs. Burn
He Bolt me. I win.
Game 2 I board in nothing.
He Bolts me. I draw. He bolts me twice. I win.

Match 3, Game 1 vs. Rgb Goblins with Maindeck Thorn of Amethyst
I keep a one land hand that can win on turn 2 if Brainstorm hits anything relevant. He wastes and it doesn't, so I lose to Lackey + Thorn and 2 Turns of dead draws.
Game 2 I take out Extirpate, Wipe Away, and 4 Street Wraiths for 4 Serenity and 2 Echoing Truth.
I fetch basics incase he plays Blood Moon. He drops Thorn and starts beating down, and I can't draw anything relevant -- not even an out.

Was this bad luck, or some fundamental problem with the way I'm playing the deck?

I don't think so, I think it's knowledge on the other side. The consistant T-Seizing on IT was a sign of this in my opinion. Game 2 they probably boarded in Extirpates, did you ever see any? Also, random discard is a bitch. Teching against is it not possible. You just have to get lucky or go off before they start stripping your hand. This matchup it's important to use your Brainstorms defensively.

Pce,

--DC

[disrupted]

Dont keep one landers? Sry but it has to be said in every format. Combo decks beat themselves every time I get greedy too.

[Mental]

Dont keep one landers? Sry but it has to be said in every format. Combo decks beat themselves every time I get greedy too.

I agree that that's why I lost the first game to Goblins. I should have mulled that hand, no matter how good it looked.

[Dark_Cynic87]

Don't keep 1-landers? I'm sorry, but I disagree. I keep a lot of 1-landers, especially if I have the kill in-hand. Discard is rarely (read: never) the reason I lose. Also, if I get 1-land hands, I can't remember a game where I didn't top/Brainstorm/Ponder/SW (When I ran it) into one before my next land drop. Maybe I'm just lucky, IDK. 1-land hands cut it for me in a deck that runs all of 16 lands (which is the most I EVER run; the 17 land build just doesn't have enough versatility for me to play it), 8 of which are fetches. I'll drop it and pass. What I grab is up to what I see them play.

After going down to 1x Petal, I think one-land hands are completely acceptable, especially if they are fetches. But then again, I'm an idiot...

Pce,

--DC

[NQN]

I started testing FT yesterday with a list frm the TES vs FT thread. I played some games against Bgw survival and won nearly every preboard game. But then he sideboarded and had a total of 4 Duress 4 Thoughtseize 2 Cabal Therapy 3 Extirpate and 3 Gaddock Teegs. Since I´m not able to play every step correctly until now it was no suprise that I lost several games now but I WAS suprised when I realized that he crushed me nearly every game now. Is it normal to looes to 3+Discard Spells and Gaddock or am I just too bad? What is the correct playstyle against this deck? And could you explain me how to kill with Brainfreeze? I always had less than 4 handcards so I wasn´t able to create enough stormcount to finish him off :(

[Omega]

sensei's divining top help,

mystical tutor to put a card on top of the deck,

brainstorm to save some spells

but yes, discard should be some difficult deck to beat

Robert

[NQN]

I know the obv moves...But if he gets Survival down i have to bounce/kill Gaddock EoT and win the next turn which is really hard if I have only 1 Ritual and 1 Mystical left for example. Also I had problems with MoonTresh because he got CB+Blood Moon on turn three nearly every game. I always fetched my basics but without UU/G it´s fuckin hard to win through those :S Maybe someone has some experience with these decks too?

[emidln]

I know the obv moves...But if he gets Survival down i have to bounce/kill Gaddock EoT and win the next turn which is really hard if I have only 1 Ritual and 1 Mystical left for example. Also I had problems with MoonTresh because he got CB+Blood Moon on turn three nearly every game. I always fetched my basics but without UU/G it´s fuckin hard to win through those :S Maybe someone has some experience with these decks too?

You really don't need to remove Gaddock Teeg, but it requires 7-8 mana (I don't remember exactly) and any extra mana can be useful because it translates directly into storm. The trick is casting Doomsday for this stack:

Draw4
Lion's Eye Diamond
Lion's Eye Diamond
Sensei's Divining Top
Brain Freeze

You'll want to top into Draw4, cast the draw, play both LED, and the tops. Tap a tap, breaking both LED for UUU in response, then begin to cycle tops for storm until you have only UU floating. When you are down to your last two mana, you cast Brain Freeze. This does require 2-3 acceleration and/or a lot of lands to work, but I've found that I can usually pull it off. It will lose to Extirpate after Doomsday, but you're not really in a position to contest that if your hand has been shredded. As far as avoiding having your hand shredded, Sensei's Divining Top, Mystical Tutor -> Draw4, and Orim's Chant on their upkeep are each ways to buy time. Given that you only need 1 card in hand, 2-3 cards on the board (that are exchangable for cards in hand) and 3 black mana to win the game though, I don't see much of a problem here. It's very possible to build a stack like Draw4, LED, LED, Tendrils, Ill-Gotten Gains that can generate lethal storm off the top with a Doomsday if you have some lands, rituals, or LEDs.

The version that I'm playing in the FT/TES thread has a known weakness to Moon Thresh and Dragon Stompy. I knew this going in when I cut from 4-5 basics down to 3. I haven't seen Moon Thresh being played often and have yet to encounter it around me so I stopped making concessions to it. It wouldn't be unreasable to go -1 Underground Sea, +1 Island, but I honestly don't think I should be the one telling you this. That really should be a call you can make on your own if your metagame has Moon Thresh in it.

Also, against Goblins it's really important to have basics. I think you might have figured this out from experience though.

[GreenOne]

And could you explain me how to kill with Brainfreeze? I always had less than 4 handcards so I wasn´t able to create enough stormcount to finish him off :(

If the cards you have in hand are Internal tutor or Doomsday + 3xLED or Cabal Ritual you could do it if no Extirpate is involved, I guess. You also need a Top on table.


I usually use Doomsday to combo with Brain Freeze. The stacks normally look something like this:

Draw4
Acceleration
Acceleration
SDT
Brain Freeze

The actual accel varies depending on I have available in hand/in play/on the table. The basic premise is that you're going to go about comboing normally into Infernal -> Doomsday floating all the mana you can. You then draw 1 mana for 1 storm, looping SDTs until you have 1U left where you play Freeze.

I had this hand on the Draw:
"Mystical, 2xDark ritual, Brainstorm, Fetch, Fetch, Plains"
The opponent leaded with a Goblin Lackey. I played a fetch and passed.
He attacked with the lackey cheating Warchief into play, followed by double piledriver.
I had to win that turn and asked myself, "how? hope to hit something good with the Brainstorm." Then I realized I had the win already in hand. My bad. I Mysticaled for Doomsday. The hand resulted in a turn 2 kill (whatever you draw for the turn) with doomsday with the classic pile:
LED
LED
IT
IGG
Tendrils

The deck is sick.

[NQN]

Trv. The problem with the brainfreeze kill against this deck is, that it has more disruption than any other deck and a fast clock with Tarmos. I was able to win little bit less than 1/2 postboard games today and was happy after winning games against 5 discard-spells+gaddock teeg. I just will practice more and then beat the shit out of him next time. Ty for the Brainfreeze thing btw :)

Greetz,
NQN

[Mental]

Don't keep 1-landers? I'm sorry, but I disagree. I keep a lot of 1-landers, especially if I have the kill in-hand. Discard is rarely (read: never) the reason I lose. Also, if I get 1-land hands, I can't remember a game where I didn't top/Brainstorm/Ponder/SW (When I ran it) into one before my next land drop. Maybe I'm just lucky, IDK. 1-land hands cut it for me in a deck that runs all of 16 lands (which is the most I EVER run; the 17 land build just doesn't have enough versatility for me to play it), 8 of which are fetches. I'll drop it and pass. What I grab is up to what I see them play.

After going down to 1x Petal, I think one-land hands are completely acceptable, especially if they are fetches. But then again, I'm an idiot...

Pce,

--DC

You do know that Goblins runs 4x Wasteland and 2-4x Port. Just FYI.

[Dark_Cynic87]

I haven't kept up on Goblins as nobody here plays them anymore. Last I knew they just had ports. Maybe the builds here just suxored.

BTW, I was testing more tonight against DS (it can be a difficult matchup if they go first with a Chalice @ 1 or a Moon effect and all you have is fetches/duals). I won 2 out of 5 matches...meh. However, the matches I did win were thanks to Slaughter Pact and Serenity. Serenity for Chalice and pact for Magus. I went off the IGG way and he was pissed. Figures. Red players...The other time I won was thanks to Pyroclasm (I've gone back to red for a bit to try out EtW again. You guys might not think it useful, but as someone said like a page back, it stalls well for me. Brain Freeze just isn't making me as happy). Due to this, I keep a Trop in my SB to board out red if I need to for certain MU's; also note that I can play a 5 color list by doing this. Not huge, but I can really tech the crap out of my list game 2...I think I'm probably just being indecisive.

Anyway, I might up the count of Serenity to 4x again. Anyone getting use out of Rushing River? Wondering if/what you guys use it for (I suppose I could have used it to bounce both Magii and Chalice).

I wonder how TES and FT compare vs. lists such as Stompy and Stax builds...I wanna see this...

Pce,

--DC

[Reagens]

I recently picked up the deck and I have a question.

Loam is very big where I live and I was wondering about the boarding strategy.

Post-board you can expect the following from loam:

Gaddock teeg
Chalice of the void
Thorn of the amethyst
Duress
Thoughtseize

Specifically my main test partner has the following post side:

3 Chalice of the void
3 Gaddock Teeg
4 Thoughtseize (main deck but obviously stays)
2 Duress

Extra difficulty is access to burning wish for cabal therapy (very painful after toughtseize).


Any suggestion would be appreciated.

[Mental]

I recently picked up the deck and I have a question.

Loam is very big where I live and I was wondering about the boarding strategy.

Post-board you can expect the following from loam:

Gaddock teeg
Chalice of the void
Thorn of the amethyst
Duress
Thoughtseize

Specifically my main test partner has the following post side:

3 Chalice of the void
3 Gaddock Teeg
4 Thoughtseize (main deck but obviously stays)
2 Duress

Extra difficulty is access to burning wish for cabal therapy (very painful after toughtseize).


Any suggestion would be appreciated.

Play TES/SI and win? Not to bash FT, but TES or SI definitely has a better Loam MU, as you can just win before the hate. If you still want to play FT, try chanting them the turn they're going to drop hate and going off the next, and make sure to maindeck Draw4s and IGGs. I'd play a faster version of the deck, to go off before the hate come down, if possible.

[emidln]

Play TES/SI and win? Not to bash FT, but TES or SI definitely has a better Loam MU, as you can just win before the hate. If you still want to play FT, try chanting them the turn they're going to drop hate and going off the next, and make sure to maindeck Draw4s and IGGs. I'd play a faster version of the deck, to go off before the hate come down, if possible.

Or you could just sideboard properly.

Bring in Brain Freeze if it's not main, Echoing Truth, and Rushing River. Take out Wipe Away, Tendrils #2/ETW, and Extirpate. If you have Dark Confidant or Thoughtseize, bring those in over Chants, otherwise your Chants are relegated to Time Walk duty. Remember that you don't need to remove Teeg to win the game (Teeg only affects Tendrils/ETW/IGG, not Doomsday into Brain Freeze) and that you have IGG and Doomsday tutorable to get back things that they made you discard.

[Reagens]

Play TES/SI and win?

Heh. I played TES before. For a while Loam was +60% of the field (I won that tournament with TES by the way). But since then (mostly) Thresh and Landstill (few decks, but competent player so in the higher brachets) are returning to be a real pain.


Or you could just sideboard properly.

Bring in Brain Freeze if it's not main, Echoing Truth, and Rushing River. Take out Wipe Away, Tendrils #2/ETW, and Extirpate. If you have Dark Confidant or Thoughtseize, bring those in over Chants, otherwise your Chants are relegated to Time Walk duty. Remember that you don't need to remove Teeg to win the game (Teeg only affects Tendrils/ETW/IGG, not Doomsday into Brain Freeze) and that you have IGG and Doomsday tutorable to get back things that they made you discard.

For easier reference I am currently using the list you played in the TES vs FT thread. I am well aware that the brain freeze kill is the preferred kill because I can ignore Gaddock.
Either way I think I will try the proposed sideboarding plan.

As a side note. If I would be playing ETW main I think I would let it stick in the deck because in the Loam version I play against there are no board sweepers. I know that sweepers are rather common in Loam decks, but in this case he has nine other anti-combo slots and if I can make 10 first/ second turn tokens it should be game. But I would be hesitant to play ETW since I think obtaining red is not that obvious without LED.

[Jak]

Heh. I played TES before. For a while Loam was +60% of the field (I won that tournament with TES by the way). But since then (mostly) ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh and Landstill (few decks, but competent player so in the higher brachets) are returning to be a real pain.

TES has the better thresh MU. Landstill still has to be done, but I am sure TES is superior there. Do not take this as a flame, but why play this over TES? I would just like an honest answer and not a flame because I feel this is a legitimate question.

[undone]

WARNING THIS WILL SOUND LIKE A FLAME IT IS NOT INDENDED TO BE:

What makes this deck better in any way then TES? From what I see TES has a higher % vs any given deck. What decks is this not true VS? Did TES getting Vexing Shusher and making the CB MU better some what remove this decks advantage of sculpting over TES?

[Illissius]

WARNING THIS WILL SOUND LIKE A FLAME IT IS NOT INDENDED TO BE:

What makes this deck better in any way then TES? From what I see TES has a higher % vs any given deck. What decks is this not true VS? Did TES getting Vexing Shusher and making the CB MU better some what remove this decks advantage of sculpting over TES?

Because some people believe that FT has a better matchup versus a variety of decks, whereas other people believe that TES has a better matchup versus those same decks. If you are among the latter, then for you there is no reason to play FT. The only way to truly decide the question either way would be massive amounts of testing; alternately, watching the T8 results come in. Thus far, the only data we have says that both decks have made T8s (don't know about the ratio), and that one particular build of TES has a notably better matchup than one particular build of FT against one particular build of four color Threshold with CB/Top and Thoughtseize. (Of course, you can (and unless you plan to do massive amounts of testing, should) extrapolate from this whatever you like, but then we're back to speculation and not empirical evidence.)

[Dark_Cynic87]

It is my opinion that SI and QSI should NOT be in the conversation at all. We are talking about Combo lists that are potentially decks to beat, not simply established lists.

I think where FT is outstanding compared to TES is against a meta with high graveyard hate. Doomsday has it.

Also, it's my opinion that most of you FT players don't realize something about this deck: The build you use is dependent on your meta. You don't have to mirror Emidln's build. That's the whole point of this list--versatility. Fetchland Tendrils is just what it implies: Fetchlands and tendrils. That's (mostly) what makes this different than TES. The manabase. Obviously they do some things different, but the general idea is the same. You accelerate, protect, and win.

Some metagames may indeed call for EtW. Others can simply use 2x Tendrils. Others may need to go for Brain Freeze.

The debatable slots in this build are exactly what they seem like: Interchangeable.

If you insist on a faster build for a heavier aggro meta, then go the 2x IGG route if you need/want. Doomsday is in my opinion a permanent replacement. If you want a tad more versatility in answering situations game 1, go ahead and use Death Wish. A more controllish metagame may call for a Draw-4 in the SB. Krosan Grip may be an acceptable option for you in the maindeck for a heavy Thresh environment, and some may still feel like it's ok to play Street Wraith for a more aggressive playing field, and also 4 petals for more explosiveness.

This isn't like other decks. This has essentially become the legacy Keeper varient like the old t1 lists way back in the day. It's especially formatted to do what it needs to when it needs to. Not go in and wipe clean an entire unknown metagame without a problem. The point of it is to have at least a chance against any deck it meets, and I feel that some of you aren't really understanding this. That's why I'm taking 2 decks with me to the GP Denver legacy side-event. If I don't feel like I'm aware enough of their metagame, I'll probably not play it. If I can scout to my liking, then I'll tweak it accordingly.

In my opinion, the only reason why TES does better against Thresh/CB is because of Shusher and REB/P-Blast. If you want to get technical, Shusher could absolutely be an option for FT if you wanted to screw around with the manabase. It's not like it's a big deal who's list is better, it's how you pilot it, the matchups you encounter, how many play errors you and your opponent make, and lets not forget: luck. Your draws matter. Your opening hand matters. This is not news, no matter how hard you want to forget it.

Pce,

--DC

[Jaiminho]

TES has the better thresh MU.

Not really -- TES has a better UGb/x Thresh MU than FT. It's as Illussius stated:


Thus far, the only data we have says that both decks have made T8s (don't know about the ratio), and that one particular build of TES has a notably better matchup than one particular build of FT against one particular build of four color Threshold with CB/Top and Thoughtseize.

CB+Top combined with Thoughtseize were game wrecking, since the latter would remove FT's answer to the former and then simply win. I don't understand when I suggested some stuff to the Thresh list (before freakish777 was chosen to play Thresh and then got to use his own list) and I got pushed away for, as one said, my suggestion would make it for an anti-combo list, which is much of what UGb Thresh is (white splashed or not).

I don't see people running over the TES thread saying FT has a better MU against this or that, so wtf.

[Jak]

Not really -- TES has a better UGb/x Thresh MU than FT. It's as Illussius stated:



CB+Top combined with Thoughtseize were game wrecking, since the latter would remove FT's answer to the former and then simply win. I don't understand when I suggested some stuff to the Thresh list (before freakish777 was chosen to play Thresh and then got to use his own list) and I got pushed away for, as one said, my suggestion would make it for an anti-combo list, which is much of what UGb Thresh is (white splashed or not).

I don't see people running over the TES thread saying FT has a better MU against this or that, so wtf.

Still, I don't think that is a good arguement. Thoughtseize takes out Vexxing Shusher also, which gives them 8 solid answers to our out to CB. Thoughtseize affects us both.

Thank you, DarkCynic, for answering me thouroghly. I am still interested in this deck and didn't want bs answers that I got before the competition.

[undone]

Im going to be totaly honest. It was NOT meant to be a "this deck suckzors play TES" I was simply asking if vexing susher made this outdated tech. As prior to susher, you definately have the CB+top matchup a bit better then them.

The reason Im asking this is that I have most of the cards for this I was curious If the deck was still good enough for me to spend the time goldfishing 40+ hands to learn the ins and outs of the deck (Took me like 150+ goldfishes with TES as well as at least 30 games and I still dont understand it totaly) I was simply curious If the deck is still good enough for me to invest time into learning how to play it (I have the cards)



I think where FT is outstanding compared to TES is against a meta with high graveyard hate. Doomsday has it.

Is that really true? I really dont use my GY in TES games 2/3 The little green men run to the face. It just seemed like this deck relied heavily on the GY with multi IGG. It also my be my lack of understanding how you use doomsday *I understand float mana draw a card then draw all 4 but how does that produce brainfreeze storm*

[Mental]

Im going to be totaly honest. It was NOT meant to be a "this deck suckzors play TES" I was simply asking if vexing susher made this outdated tech. As prior to susher, you definately have the CB+top matchup a bit better then them.

The reason Im asking this is that I have most of the cards for this I was curious If the deck was still good enough for me to spend the time goldfishing 40+ hands to learn the ins and outs of the deck (Took me like 150+ goldfishes with TES as well as at least 30 games and I still dont understand it totaly) I was simply curious If the deck is still good enough for me to invest time into learning how to play it (I have the cards)



Is that really true? I really dont use my GY in TES games 2/3 The little green men run to the face. It just seemed like this deck relied heavily on the GY with multi IGG. It also my be my lack of understanding how you use doomsday *I understand float mana draw a card then draw all 4 but how does that produce brainfreeze storm*

TES players tend to overrate Shusher. He's very good, but what are you siding out for him + 3 blasts? Oh yeah, the mana to play him + 3 blasts. Not so hot. He's by no means perfect.

@EmidIn - I agree with your points on the SB, but I still think that it's hard to argue that fast combo has a better MU against Loam than less fast combo. Not that this list can't be easily tuned to beat loam.

@DarkCynic: I completely agree with your views about the adaptability of this deck. I'm in a straight aggro/aggro-(control) meta, so I'm playing the old petal list with Street Wraith. I made the mistake of running only 1 IGG last tournament and it cost me, but I think next time I play this deck I'll be playing some amount of EtW, 2 IGG, and lots of fast acceleration.

To make this easy for people:
In an aggro meta, you probably want to MB - 2 IGG, EtW, Draw4s, less bounce, less Extirpate, Lotus Petal, Street Wraith
In a Thresh meta, you probably want to MB - 1 IGG, 1 Doomsday, 1 Brainfreeze, 1 Tendrils, 17 lands, 3-4 SDT. And if there's black thresh, don't play this deck ;). Bounce is also good.
In a Landstill meta, play extra Extirpates in the board, along with 1 IGG, 1 Doomsday, and Double Tendrils MB. Play SDT and 17 lands.

[jegger]

Someone plays again Abeyance in SB?
I cut it because Abeyance allows to Spell Snare to became a relevance spell.

Above all, if I'm playing a decklist with Doomsday maindeck I think to play in SB Duress instead of Abeyance. Duress round on Spell Snare played in DreadStill or some variants of Threshold; an early Duress remove CB from hand; and if the problem is that with Duress we can't exit from an hand of Counter+Stifle, we can build a Doomsday's stack with Orim to round on Stifle. A problem of Duress is that we must search early a black mana source with fetches, and we know that usually the black mana source is the less relevance in early game and we can't fetch easily for duals because usually decks that play Spell Snare, they play also Wasteland.

In alternative to Duress, I'm trying Pact, but we need to play Doomsday combo without the help of LED (anyway many players don't know how to play against doomsday and usually they use their counters on doomsday instead to wait we discard the hand with LED).

Anyway Abeyance is better against others matchups like for example Ichorid.
(ah I consider Duress or Pact only in a build with Doomsday).

About the aggro-loam matchup, I have a teammate that plays this deck.
In his decklist, the hate against FT is: Chalice, Trinisphere and Devastating Dreams plus Burning Wish for Cranial Extraction that give me a clock of 4 turns. I've played dozens and dozens of games against aggro-loam. Usually pre-side we are 50-50 and the more important aspect is the coin toss. If we start we can increase the percentage of win of 5-10 points and vice versa. Post side, usually I win easily, I consider 75-80% of win. I side in 9 cards and his side in/out is not so effective like mine (Grip against Serenity or SDT if I use it, Leyline and sometimes additional Trinispheres).

[GreenOne]

Someone plays again Abeyance in SB?
I'm playing it as a 1x SB. I find it useful vs decks with Extirpate+Crypt as it solves both problems if unchecked.

[jegger]

I'm playing it as a 1x SB. I find it useful vs decks with Extirpate+Crypt as it solves both problems if unchecked.

How many times do you use it simultaneously against Extirpate and Crypt?
What are the decks that play both them?
Anyway the doubt between Abeyance, Duress, Pact is a minor aspect.

[GreenOne]

How many times do you use it simultaneously against Extirpate and Crypt?
What are the decks that play both them?
Anyway the doubt between Abeyance, Duress, Pact is a minor aspect.

The decks using Extirpate+Crypt are usually UBx aggrocontrol decks that prefer crypt to Leyline due to the Trinket Mage toolbox. Something similar to Dreadstill decks.
Quite a bit. I use it vs Stifle / Counters in grave + Crypt too.
It's also good in the TES matchup and when people extirpate your chants.

However, it's much more useful in the Wraith version. The access to Doomsday solves much of the Crypt problems.

[jegger]

The decks using Extirpate+Crypt are usually UBx aggrocontrol decks that prefer crypt to Leyline due to the Trinket Mage toolbox. Something similar to Dreadstill decks.
Quite a bit. I use it vs Stifle / Counters in grave + Crypt too.
It's also good in the TES matchup and when people extirpate your chants.

However, it's much more useful in the Wraith version. The access to Doomsday solves much of the Crypt problems.

Yep, but usually UBx aggrocontrol decks like Thresh UGB or Dreadstill variant with black play also Spell Snare, so they can give a role to their Snare. So we close the circle.
Anyway I consider the alternaives to Abeyance only if I can use the Doomsday to round on Crypt, I don't consider Duress/Pact where I can use only the IGG engine.
Thanks for your explanation anyway.

I'm also trying another evolution of the deck where the Doomsday combo has more space and where I cut the IGG engine.

[Jaiminho]

(...) we can build a Doomsday's stack with Orim to round on Stifle.

If you used LED to power up mana for Doomsday, you are relying on Top to start casting those 5 spells. They only need to cast Stifle on Top and you have just lost the game, unless they can't kill you or find a counter in the next turn and you can generate BBB to cast Draw4 and they are pretty low on life points. Seriously, it never happens.



Someone plays again Abeyance in SB?

I'm playing 2. It's very good against any combo and nice for extra chant effects. In the FT mirror, you simply lose if you have no Abeyances.

[Dark_Cynic87]

TES players tend to overrate Shusher.


QFT. It's good, but overrated. Swords'ed, Seized, burned, stifled, bounced. Meh.



To make this easy for people:
In an aggro meta, you probably want to MB - 2 IGG, EtW, Draw4s, less bounce, less Extirpate, Lotus Petal, Street Wraith
In a Thresh meta, you probably want to MB - 1 IGG, 1 Doomsday, 1 Brainfreeze, 1 Tendrils, 17 lands, 3-4 SDT. And if there's black thresh, don't play this deck ;). Bounce is also good.
In a Landstill meta, play extra Extirpates in the board, along with 1 IGG, 1 Doomsday, and Double Tendrils MB. Play SDT and 17 lands.
[/QUOTE]

I mostly agree with this, other than the 17 lands against Landstill. I will NOT play 17 lands, nor do I recommend it for anyone else. That's too much, no matter the matchup imho. I also disagree to an extent with the Draw-4's in an aggro meta (monored/redgreen Goblins, no need. A decent amount of hand disruption, ok). 1 seems sufficient against every aggro build I've played against.

Pce,

--DC

[Arsenal]

Shusher has more subtle effects on the game, especially game 2 and game 3, than what's written on the card. Assuming the opponent lost game 1 to TES, 99% of players will want to board out all their "dead" removal spells and load up on anti-combo cards... but now, they might not be so quick to do so. "Do I leave in these removal spells in the hopes that he boards in Shusher? Do I board out all my removal spells, only to find he plays turn 1 Shusher, turn 2 win?" It's definitely not overrated in TES, just a very strong card that not only positively affects the actual game, but has postitive sideboarding implications as well.

[GreenOne]

It's definitely not overrated in TES, just a very strong card that not only positively affects the actual game, but has postitive sideboarding implications as well.

That's the exact reason why I'm still playing Confidant in the board. Plus, people doesn't expect Confidant vs Fetchland Tedrils, and unchecked confidant(s) wins so many games it's unfair.

[Arsenal]

I just find it funny that FT players are talking about TES players overrating things...

[Jaiminho]

I don't see anyone profiting from this TES vs FT gang thing. From both sides. It's getting pretty annoying.

Back on topic: emidln, have you tested any of those changes you brainstormed about on the TES vs FT thread concerning proactive answers against opponent's Thoughtseize?

[Mental]

I just find it funny that FT players are talking about TES players overrating things...

Quiet, I play both decks equally often. They're both good. Players of both overrate their decks.

Confidant does seem like some good tech that should see play in the board again.

@DarkCynic:
Draw4s are good against aggro because most of the hate they bring in for you is in the form of discard. Draw4s circumvent that very well.

[emidln]

I don't see anyone profiting from this TES vs FT gang thing. From both sides. It's getting pretty annoying.

Back on topic: emidln, have you tested any of those changes you brainstormed about on the TES vs FT thread concerning proactive answers against opponent's Thoughtseize?

My gauntlet isn't finished yet. I'll post more on that list when it has undergone exhaustive testing.

[Brehn]

Great, now we are discussing Vexing Shusher in TES here? Arsenal, go away. I guess the only thing that's missing at this point is somebody claiming that Dreadstill is a bad deck. Bryant? Adan? Anyone?

I've done some testing recently (esp. Tempo Thresh and Landstill matchups) and I'd like to hear some opinions about Lotus Petal again. This is the manabase I've tested with:

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand

1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains

2 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island

1 Lotus Petal

And it didn't work well. Thing is, Wasteland can pretty much colorscrew you. This is what emidln wrote some pages ago when arguing about (i. e. against) Lotus Petal:


If you look at how the deck casts spells, you'll notice that it wants a lot of blue mana, a moderate amount of white mana, and one black mana.
(...)
You enter the protection phase with WWB. This is enough mana to get you to the combo phase.

How can this manabase support both "a lot of blue mana" and "WWB" ? In testing, if you know you're facing Wasteland, the first land you (optimally) play / fetch is a basic Island. Island because it produces blue to cast Brainstorm/Ponder and later Mystical Tutor, Basic because it's quite crucial not to get your very first mana source wasted. This means that by the time you combo off you need four lands in play, two of which must be able to produce white. I've faced the problem that it's pretty easy to cut the FT player off either WW or B via one or two Wastelands and/or Stifles (and no, it is not necessarily a bad move to Stifle a Fetchland. It's actually game-winning in many situations). Also, I've often found myself in the situation that I lost a game because that one land - the first one I've played - was a basic Island. Entering the combo step with B does not always work if you plan to win with Doomsday - you need BBBBBB with the standard stack, and often a good portion of this mana needs to come from your manabase because you don't have LED / enough rituals available. Then again, Island +WWB reequires 4 lands, considering that you get one land wasted (which is a healthy assumption) you can't go off before turn 5. By this time, it's not very unusual for a Threshold / Landstill-Player to have drawn into double-Counter + Stifle. How do you circumvent this without having to look for a third white manasource?

I've yet to run into a compelling reason why I SHOULD include the card. I'd be really interested in hearing it.
I think "produces U or W or B or G" is the main argument for Lotus Petal.

- With a manabase featuring 4 Petals Wasteland becomes less effective when it comes down to cutting off colors.
- Devastating Dreams doesn't necessarily wreck you.
- Armageddon doesn't necessarily wreck you.
- You can easily go off (unprotectedly) through a Blood Moon (try this with a non-Petal manabase if you were not lucky enough to be able to fetch your basic Swamp which requires one out of 5 cards to be drawn).
- Fetchlands can be used to bait Stifles more effectively (e.g.: the turn you want to go off bluff B-screw, lay down a Fetch, get it stifled, play Petal, Dark Ritual, win).
- The point that you can go off earlier against aggro is just an additional gimmick which comes in handy.
- Petals allow a first-turn walking Chant against decks with artifact-basede disruption or discard - after you've played your cantrip.
- Occasionally, Petals help you if you return them while going off with IGG.
- Non-Stifleable way to get green mana for Grip (although there are not that many decks with both Stifle and Counterbalance) - don't forget to cast Petal before CB hits.
- Fewer problems with getting BBBBBB for Doomsday.
- Helps gripping Counterbalance on turn 2 with the opponent tapped out (GreenOne)

I think those are strong arguments and I'd definitely like to see the counterpart of this list - arguments for a non-petal manabase. I currently can only think of those:

- Petals suck against Stax "because they always cost 3" (I've read this statement somewhere in this thread. Isn't this the same as "Lands suck against Stax because they always get armageddoned away" ?)
- Petals make the deck more vulnerable to Chalice at 0 (although I don't know to what extent)
- "More Lands are better in the Landstill matchup" - also read this somewhere in this thread. Is this true? Landstill plays 4 Wastelands and some lists play 2-4 Stifle, right?
- Playing fewer Land results in getting more one-landers which slows the cantrip/Top-engine down in the first few turns.
- More mulligans due to no-landers.

Comparing these lists (which surely are not complete) I'd say that the advantages of Petal outweigh the disadvantages. The manabase I'll test in the next days / weeks:

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand

1 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island

1 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp

4 Lotus Petal

(should this be -1 Strand, +1 manaproducing land?)


Another topic: Right number of Storm Enablers / Win Conditions. We got:

1-2 Tendrils of Agony
0-1 Brain Freeze
1-2 Doomsday (I won't consider cutting them completely)
1-2 Ill-Gotten Gains

emidln's list from the competition thread frees 4 slots for these spells. Initially he said something like "running 2 Doomsdays is mandatory" - probably changed his mind. Questions are:

- In which matchups do you want to have access to double Tendrils?
- Which matchups justify Brain Freeze being maindeck material?
- I've read somewhere that playing two IGGs helps against discard. Are they really necessary?
- Is anybody still playing 2 Doomsdays?


EDIT: Arsenal, you were not the one who brought it up. But you were the one to make two posts that didn't include anything about Fetchland Tendrils, that's why I randomly picked you. No offense.

[Arsenal]

I'm pretty sure I wasn't the one who brought up TES/Shusher in the first place, but I'll let you guys finish eating your humble pie.

[GreenOne]

Petal helps in krosan gripping counterbalance on turn 2 on the play and then go off with the opponent tapped out.
I'd play your manabase wit -1 Petal +1 Land (Island probably)

[emidln]

emidln's list from the competition thread frees 4 slots for these spells. Initially he said something like "running 2 Doomsdays is mandatory" - probably changed his mind. Questions are:

- In which matchups do you want to have access to double Tendrils?
- Which matchups justify Brain Freeze being maindeck material?
- I've read somewhere that playing two IGGs helps against discard. Are they really necessary?
- Is anybody still playing 2 Doomsdays?

The list I've been putting through gauntlet testing plays 1 Tendrils, 1 ETW, 1 IGG, 1 Doomsday maindeck. It has 1 Doomsday, 1 Brain Freeze in the sb. I board in Doomsday#2 against heavy discard and when it's necessary to decrease the amount of cards in hand needed for combo (to fight the wars of attrition against some control decks). I'm playing 6 slots for protection in the maindeck (4 Chant, 1 Extirpate, 1 KGrip) with up to 10 of the same possible against troublesome matchups (4 Thoughtseize, 1 Abeyance, 2 Extirpate, 3 KGrip) in the sideboard. The full sideboard I'm testing looks like this:

//protection
4 Thoughtseize
1 Abeyance
2 Extirpate

//removal
3 Krosan Grip
1 Wipe Away
1 Echoing Truth
1 Rushing River

//alt win
1 Doomsday
1 Brain Freeze

My manabase is questionable right now. I have 17 lands, 1 Petal in this config, but I'm not quite sure about the the 8th fetch and what the 17th land should be (right now I have it as an Underground Sea). I want more basics (indeed I wish I had an 18th land, but I can't find the cut for it) and that's what the 2nd Sea or the 8th fetchland might become.

For reference:

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
2 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island

So far I've been very happy with it, but I'm not very far into my gauntlet. I'll know more as I approach GP: Indy after the testing sessions.

Edit: Stuff about Lotus Petal

Lotus Petal is bad against Stax because you want to get to 3 mana to play a bounce/serenity. 14-15 lands + 4 petal yields almost exactly the same amount of mana sources as 17 lands + 1 petal but the 17 land version's mana sources aren't cut off by Trinisphere and Chalice of the Void. If they don't have Trinisphere, you should be comboing anyway so the other scenario doesn't matter much.

The only compelling places Petal is better are against black LD (Deadguy, Eva Green) and against Dragon Stompy. (Although to be perfectly honest, I'm still winning 50% of my games without Serenity and without the other 3 Petals because LED and Top are just that stupid good.)

[r0ckstAr]

Hello,

I'm new to this deck, and I'm wondering something : how do you use doomsday stacks ? Is it the mean to brainfreeze the opponent ?

Do you think leaving green for red and empty the warrens is a good choice in a meta where ichorid, aggro loam and the rock are widely represented (along with a lot of landstills) ?

[Shriekmaw]

Hello,

I'm new to this deck, and I'm wondering something : how do you use doomsday stacks ? Is it the mean to brainfreeze the opponent ?

Do you think leaving green for red and empty the warrens is a good choice in a meta where ichorid, aggro loam and the rock are widely represented (along with a lot of landstills) ?

In the above metagame with Ichorid, Aggro Loam, and The Rock; I would play Red over Green as a splash in the deck. I just prefer Red over Green because it has better cards against blue control decks. I think Serenity is a fine replacement for Grip in the board by cutting green.

I'm not sold on the new direction that some players have gone with this deck. I still like the first build of Fetch Land Tendrils before they added Sensei's Divining Top and Doomsday.

[Dark_Cynic87]

it's my opinion that most of you FT players don't realize something about this deck: The build you use is dependent on your meta. You don't have to mirror Emidln's build. That's the whole point of this list--versatility.

I hate repeating myself. Nick, if that build works for you in your meta, then by all means play it. However, it's been tested and found that Top is much better against control builds. Also, you should look at what you just said.



In the above metagame with Ichorid, Aggro Loam, and The Rock; I would play Red over Green as a splash in the deck.


You just said to play EtW in a metagame with a relevant amount of Deed present. Moreover, you said NOT to play Grip against a deck that runs LotV, a list that uses an enchantment as a kill-spell, and then Deed...See anything wrong here? How does Serenity solve these problems? Ichorid is a wierd matchup, and heavily dependent on opening hands for both sides (this is just in my opinion, if you guys have some method of beating them, I'd like to hear it), and EtW is a worse choice than Echoing Truth, however helpful game 1. Against Deed, K. Grip is necessary if you run EtW, and since you mentioned The Rock, they run Vindicates to rid you of your Serenity. Serenity isn't really a great answer by itself. Even against Counterbalance it's worse as their 2-spot is used by Goyf and it makes their counter spells relevant, not to mention their own K. Grips.

Don't get me wrong, I use Serenity, but K. Grip is by far the MVP when it comes to removal; you can tutor it up, and then keep it where it's at via Top until it becomes a necessary force, all while making their in-hand protection irrelevant. I run a 5-color list, and it does quite well. I use Tops also. But I do advocate others use what they need to to win. That is the point, right? Winning? Why is conformity becoming a driving force in this thread? I've never seen so many people determined to change peoples' minds into running xeroxed lists...Play what you need, discuss choices, but at the end of the day, leave it alone.

Pce,

--DC

[dlevsApiJ]

@ emidln,

How do you board with that SB against:

AggroControl with CB
AggroControl without SB
Control

Cause you have so many cards that are good in that MU's

[emidln]

Ichorid is a wierd matchup, and heavily dependent on opening hands for both sides (this is just in my opinion, if you guys have some method of beating them, I'd like to hear it),

My Ichorid strategy boils down the following:

1) Use Chant/Extirpate to keep Narcomoebas off the table (not always possible with Chant, but they have exactly 4 ways of non-spell card draw outside of draw step) and Cabal Therapy from smacking me in the fish.

2a) Use 2nd Extirpate/1st Echoing Truth on Ichorids (beats Ichorid completely considering without Narcos and Ichorids they'll never be able to put Golgari Thugs or Stinkweed Imps into play fast enough to race you). With Mystical Tutor or Lim-dul's Vault and 3 Extirpate postboard, this isn't terribly hard.

OR

2a) Win the game via Goldfishing (this happens more than "2a", but watching out for 2a is a good way to get easy wins).

[Nihil Credo]

1) Use Chant/Extirpate to keep Narcomoebas off the table
It's not clear what you mean here, but just in case: Narcomoebas's ability puts them into play rather than let you play them, so Orim's Chant won't stop them from coming into play (although it will prevent a DR/Therapy on that same turn).

[emidln]

It's not clear what you mean here, but just in case: Narcomoebas's ability puts them into play rather than let you play them, so Orim's Chant won't stop them from coming into play (although it will prevent a DR/Therapy on that same turn).

The not playing DR/Therapy is what I meant. The "not always possible with Chant" comment wasn't clear enough.

[dlevsApiJ]

@ emidln,

How do you board with that SB against:

AggroControl with CB
AggroControl without SB
Control

Cause you have so many cards that are good in that MU's

[moxpearl]

I board in Doomsday#2 against heavy discard and when it's necessary to decrease the amount of cards in hand needed for combo (to fight the wars of attrition against some control decks).

If heavy discard has obliterated your hand, and let's say you even have a top on the board, how do you do 20 points of damage with a Doomsday stack?

[Brehn]

With Doomsday in hand and Top on the board, you need either 3 other spells + BBBBBB (standard stack) or 1 other spell + 2BBBBBB (replace Petal with Top) to generate a storm count of 10. Note: Against "heavy discard" it's quite possible that you don't need to do 20 because those decks often pack Thoughtseize (also seen: Dark Confidant, Fetchlands). If they played 2 Thoughtseizes and you have Top + 3 lands in play, you only need 2 cards in your hand to win (Cabal Ritual [with 2 B-producing lands, 1 random land + Threshold] / LED [with 3 B-producing lands] + Doomsday).


Lotus Petal is bad against Stax because you want to get to 3 mana to play a bounce/serenity. 14-15 lands + 4 petal yields almost exactly the same amount of mana sources as 17 lands + 1 petal but the 17 land version's mana sources aren't cut off by Trinisphere and Chalice of the Void. If they don't have Trinisphere, you should be comboing anyway so the other scenario doesn't matter much.

The only compelling places Petal is better are against black LD (Deadguy, Eva Green) and against Dragon Stompy. (Although to be perfectly honest, I'm still winning 50% of my games without Serenity and without the other 3 Petals because LED and Top are just that stupid good.)
Hum.
So Petal is bad against Stax and good against Deadguy, Eva Green and Dragon Stompy. Again, those are more pros than cons. I'm still waiting for a good explanation why a playset of Petals shouldn't be played. The only reason I've heard from you so far is the Stax matchup, which on its own does not justify anything.

[emidln]

With Doomsday in hand and Top on the board, you need either 3 other spells + BBBBBB (standard stack) or 1 other spell + 2BBBBBB (replace Petal with Top) to generate a storm count of 10. Note: Against "heavy discard" it's quite possible that you don't need to do 20 because those decks often pack Thoughtseize (also seen: Dark Confidant, Fetchlands). If they played 2 Thoughtseizes and you have Top + 3 lands in play, you only need 2 cards in your hand to win (Cabal Ritual [with 2 B-producing lands, 1 random land + Threshold] / LED [with 3 B-producing lands] + Doomsday).


Hum.
So Petal is bad against Stax and good against Deadguy, Eva Green and Dragon Stompy. Again, those are more pros than cons. I'm still waiting for a good explanation why a playset of Petals shouldn't be played. The only reason I've heard from you so far is the Stax matchup, which on its own does not justify anything.

Lands are better than Petals vs Threshold/Fish and Landstill. In these matchups, you desperately need to use mana to setup with cantrips and tutors so being forced to mull hands with Petal, Ponder, Brainstorm and no lands really sucks. Hitting three lands against Landstill is critical to the ease of winning the matchup while hitting three lands agaisnt Thresh/Fish largely takes Daze out of the equation. These matchups are much more prevalent than any Chalice deck or black aggro deck.


If heavy discard has obliterated your hand, and let's say you even have a top on the board, how do you do 20 points of damage with a Doomsday stack?

You play LED and Top to the board. In such a situation you would only need 0-1 Rituals and Doomsday to generate lethal storm. This is accomplished blue cantrips or with multiple tops on the table + topdeck tutors. LED on the table

Let's say you have the following in play:

Swamp
Island
Plains
Sensei's Divining Top
Lion's Eye Diamond

You need 2BBB + 1 spell or 1 mana to generate lethal storm with a Tendrils stack (assuming an opponent hasn't been gracious enough to assist in their death) which with a board like the sample board would let you use either Dark Rit or Cabal Rit + Doomsday as the only cards in your hand.

Dark Rit (2BBB)
Doomsday (2 + LED = 2BBB)
Draw4 (2)
LED (2)
LED (2)
Top (1)
Top (0 + LED + LED= BBBBBB)
Top (BBBBB)
Top (BBBB)
Tendrils with 9 storm

This is the stack I used for that (a basic variation of my standard Cruel Bargain/Tendrils stack):

[top]
Cruel Bargain
LED
LED
Top
Tendrils
[bottom]

[Shriekmaw]

Against the blue control decks, I do agree that Top is better than both street wraith and lotus petal that I currently play. Doomsday is darn right terrible though. You usually play the long game hoping that you will be able to combo out against them.

In our metagame, the board has to be totally reworked since a lot of control decks are playing Orim's Chant in the board against us, usually along with extirpate to. This is why I had to go back to green for Xantid Swarm mainly.

Also, I'm going to start testing Bitterblossom in the board against control style decks which provides another way to win since a lot of them board there removal out. Maybe its just a terrible idea, but I want to explore it further.

[thefreakaccident]

I have played FT twice for my last two local tournaments... First time, I got third/fourth the first time I played it... only losing to stax out of four rounds, the next tournament, I went 3-0-1 and got first, not loosing a single game throughout the tournament (2-0, 2-0, 2-0, split)...

I mainly played it because I don't have the cards to build my other decks currently (selling regulars so as to pimp my shaz).

Here is the list I played (sub-optimal just looking at it myself, but it has done well for me).

lands//18 (OMG, that's a lot)
4 flooded strand
4 polluted delta
2 underground sea
1 island
1 swamp
1 plains
2 tundra
1 volcanic island
1 tropical island
1 scrubland

spells//42
1 lotus petal
4 lion's eye diamond
4 dark ritual
4 cabal ritual
4 infernal tutor
4 mystical tutor
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
3 sensei's divining top
3 orim's chant
1 tendril's of agony
1 ill-gotten gains
1 brainfreeze
1 empty the warrens
1 doomsday
1 wipe away
1 cruel bargain


sideboard (I had to build this deck last second, really terrible sideboard...)

4 serenity
3 extirpate
3 echoing truth
2 krosan grip
1 infernal contract
1 empty the warrens
1 pithing needle (this was a place holder for abeyance, and I was supposed to have 4 chants...)




Automatic changes I would want to make are these:

-1 plains
- excess win conditions (brainfreeze & ETW... at least in MD).

3 slots:

+1 orim's chant
+1 extirpate
+1 draw 4


At least, those are the changes I am tempted to make... although you guys know more about this deck than I (played it twice, ever)... So I want to get the cuts/adds from you guys to maximize the deck...

Also, the sideboard looks really shitty, so could I get some suggestions on that as well?

[Jaiminho]

Yeah, taking out one of the win conditions is the way to go, I'd say. Taking Brain Freeze to the sideboard seems just fine, as it is simply worse than the other wincons as it is there for dodging sideboard cards. Simply side it in when you need.

I'd also keep Top as a 4-of. I think it's better than Ponder as a 4-of, since it gets Doomsday running.

Keeping the basic Plains might be better than keeping the 2nd Tundra or Underground Sea. I can't really say much here, but fetching that basic for early time walks against Stax without being vulnerable to Wasteland and for playing Serenity over Moon seems worth it.

Draw4 in the sideboard makes no sense to me and Needle is just worse than Abeyance. One of the Echoing Truths should be a Rushing River for playing against Stax and Stompies -- you usually have enough lands to get the second bounce effect with no drawbacks. ETW in the sideboard also seems like a card you are never siding in, specially when you have made the cut from 3 to 2 win conditions in the maindeck.

[thefreakaccident]

I said the SB was terrible... which is why I asked for suggestions...

So, cut the brainfreeze for the fourth chant, and the 4th ponder for the fourth top in the MD?

I want to have 2-3 abeyances in my board (probably 2)... taking out needle and ETW... Take out the draw 4 for.. brainfreeze (moving it to board)...

The echoing truths have been good for me, but I will test one out for the river.

Thank you for the input.

[m03]

While we're sharing lists for criticism...
I got 2nd place in an 8 person tournament last week using the following list:

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [B] Swamp (2)
1 [B] Island (1)
2 [U] Underground Sea
1 [U] Tundra
1 [U] Scrubland
1 [U] Tropical Island
1 [U] Volcanic Island

// Spells
4 [B] Dark Ritual
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
2 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [IA] Brainstorm
3 [LRW] Ponder
1 [PT] Cruel Bargain
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
3 [MI] Mystical Tutor
1 [AL] Lim-Dul's Vault
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
1 [PLC] Extirpate
1 [TSP] Wipe Away
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
1 [WL] Doomsday
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [US] Duress
SB: 2 [WL] Abeyance
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 1 [PS] Rushing River
SB: 1 [WL] Doomsday
SB: 1 [SC] Brain Freeze

The field was (and will probably be the same next time): 1 Burn, 1 BU Tog Control, 2 BR/GR Aggro, 1 BG Discard/Pox, 1 Armageddon Stax, 1 Solidarity.

My only losses were to the Solidarity player...since I don't have much experience vs. Solidarity, I just wasn't sure how to best play against it. I didn't realize what he was running round-1 until High Tide hit the table. I tried to fetch Extirpate with Mystical Tutor (I had a Top in play), but as expected, he just responded with everything on top of me tapping Top.

The changes I plan on making for next week are:

-1 Lotus Petal
-1 Flooded Strand
+1 Island
+1 Swamp

I might do the following for the SB, but I'm not sure yet:

-1 Abeyance
+1 Echoing Truth

Given the competition, a singleton Plains doesn't seem necessary. Plus, I'm running less white than most other lists I've seen, so less sources are needed.

[Dark_Cynic87]

Do not drop a fetch, and 18 lands is too much. I'd stay at 16, and just drop a Sea for a basic Plains. Do drop a petal, though, and up the M. Tutor count to 4. Alternatively you could put in a K. Grip/Wipe Away main for a little help vs. stuff like chalice/CB/3sphere. In your board, I really don't think a second Doomsday or a 3rd Extirpate is necessary. I think the slots would be better as other things depending your metagame.

[_m03]

While I'm waiting for my regular account to get unbanned (I'm not a bot damnit!!!), I'll address some of the points:


Do not drop a fetch, and 18 lands is too much. I'd stay at 16, and just drop a Sea for a basic Plains.

I wouldn't be going to 18, I'd be going to 17, which is a fairly standard land count for FT.

Dropping a Sea for a Plains seems bad. I've already cut half of the white cards from the deck (well, the sideboard), and replaced them with black cards, so dropping a blue and black source for a white source doesn't seem like a good idea.


Do drop a petal, though, and up the M. Tutor count to 4.

I'm running 1 Lim-Dul's Vault in place of the 4th Mystical Tutor, so I'm good as far as Tutor count is concerned. I may cut LDV for the 4th MT at some point, but I haven't found a compelling enough reason yet.



Alternatively you could put in a K. Grip/Wipe Away main for a little help vs. stuff like chalice/CB/3sphere.

I've already got a Wipe Away main.


In your board, I really don't think a second Doomsday or a 3rd Extirpate is necessary. I think the slots would be better as other things depending your metagame.

The idea of Extirpate #3 was to combine with the Duress strategy in the sideboard...although, you may be correct. The third Extirpate and Doomsday may be better served by replacing them with bounce spells (Echoing Truth and Hurkyl's Recall being the most likely candidates).