[Deck] Fetchland Tendrils

[Pulp_Fiction]

Doomsday is a slower combo card, but the reasons for it being so effective against blue is that you are able to sculpt a great hand and easily combo off. Instead of relying on free artifacts you use actual lands (DDFT plays between 15-18) which is also great as you are not as reliant on rituals, and when you have rituals daze is not even close to a problem. AND, when you have done all the math beforehand, you are going to win, the combo can't fizzle like AdN can. But it is all about the setup, and taking the time to build up a good hand, then attempting to win or just testing the defenses to draw out the counters for setup next turn.

IGGY is not ideal against blue but it is one of the reasons for so many Chant effects, it makes things easier to win. You don't have to worry about Duressing them then casting IGG and they get it all back, Chant ... Tendrils :)

[GreenOne]

Doomsday also acts like a tutor for bounce/removal against hate and doesn't use the graveyard, unless you want it to use it.

You often find yourself in the situation where the opponent has a Meddling Mage/Gaddock/Halo/Chalice@0/relic of progenitus+some damage to you, etc.
With Doomsday in your deck you don't need to tutor for both the combo and the removal for the hate piece. You just Doomsday and put Slaughter Pact/Helm+Grapeshot/Chain of Vapor/whatever in your pile and combo off.

With SDT in play, 2 lands, and a hand with, say, DD, rit, rit, c.rit you have a hand that wins against those hate pieces said before.

Every combo engine has its problems: AN wants you to have a decent amount of life, IGG wants you to have a opponent with no recurring counters and no graveyard hate, DD wants you to have 2 life and a cantrip effect. Running every engine gives you many more possibilities, and grants you adaptability. If you reduce the engines you will find yourself with a one trick pony that might work greatly sometimes, but that is going to get fucked some others.

[JeroenC]

Does enemy fetchlands existing mean anything to us? I suppose it's "good" news for the red-centered version. But probably doesn't matter as much.

[tsabo_tavoc]

Does enemy fetchlands existing mean anything to us? I suppose it's "good" news for the red-centered version. But probably doesn't matter as much.

To some extent.

How many extra Fetchlands do we need?
0-3. Our fetches should be able to fetch any mana producing land in the deck, so we adapted to 8 Fetches.

How many Basiclands do we need?
1 Island and arguably 1 Plains. They are fetchable with ease.

[Pulp_Fiction]

In straight DDFT the U/R fetches will probably be played. Other than that, the DDFT variants could use the B/W fetches but probably not even a whole playset, just depends on how many of which basics you play. It could also be an answer to Pithing Needle but I have only had someone Needle my lands twice ever in tournament play.

[hungryLIKEALION]

So I'm just beginning playing Storm combo, and I think the list I'm using is closest to this deck. It's got a fetchland manabase, and has a mix of bombs and protection.

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
1 [A] Bayou
1 [ST] Island (2)
1 [B] Badlands
1 [A] Underground Sea
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
2 [U] Volcanic Island
1 [U] Tundra

// Spells
1 [WL] Doomsday
4 [6E] Mystical Tutor
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
1 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
3 [JU] Burning Wish
2 [MR] Chrome Mox
1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
1 [TE] Meditate
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
2 [M10] Ponder
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [A] Dark Ritual
3 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [US] Duress
1 [PS] Orim's Chant
1 [M10] Silence

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [WL] Doomsday
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 1 [NE] Reverent Silence
SB: 1 [MM] Pulverize
SB: 2 [FUT] Pact of Negation
SB: 3 [SC] Xantid Swarm
SB: 1 [CS] Deathmark

If I'm wrong and this is not a Fetchland Tendrils deck, if someone who knows more about the archetype could please point me to the right thread to discuss this deck.

I'd certainly appreciate any advice on how to improve my list. So far I like how it plays. It seems to me that the 4 duress and 2 chant effects are enough protection with the mystical tutors to find them.

Is there a better list for beginners to storm to play? I've played storm in Vintage for almost two years, but I'm just getting into it now in legacy, and it seems a lot harder to me.

Also, I think my sideboard is somewhat of a wreck. I'm also considering trying to play 4 chrome mox, as I've been happy to see it every time I do. Or maybe just 3. I don't know for certain. If anyone has any experience playing with different numbers of the moxen, I'd be interested to hear your takes on it.

Thanks for your time. :)

[lorddotm]

So I'm just beginning playing Storm combo, and I think the list I'm using is closest to this deck. It's got a fetchland manabase, and has a mix of bombs and protection.

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
1 [A] Bayou
1 [ST] Island (2)
1 [B] Badlands
1 [A] Underground Sea
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
2 [U] Volcanic Island
1 [U] Tundra

// Spells
1 [WL] Doomsday
4 [6E] Mystical Tutor
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
1 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
3 [JU] Burning Wish
2 [MR] Chrome Mox
1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
1 [TE] Meditate
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
2 [M10] Ponder
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [A] Dark Ritual
3 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [US] Duress
1 [PS] Orim's Chant
1 [M10] Silence

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [WL] Doomsday
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 1 [NE] Reverent Silence
SB: 1 [MM] Pulverize
SB: 2 [FUT] Pact of Negation
SB: 3 [SC] Xantid Swarm
SB: 1 [CS] Deathmark

If I'm wrong and this is not a Fetchland Tendrils deck, if someone who knows more about the archetype could please point me to the right thread to discuss this deck.

I'd certainly appreciate any advice on how to improve my list. So far I like how it plays. It seems to me that the 4 duress and 2 chant effects are enough protection with the mystical tutors to find them.

Is there a better list for beginners to storm to play? I've played storm in Vintage for almost two years, but I'm just getting into it now in legacy, and it seems a lot harder to me.

Also, I think my sideboard is somewhat of a wreck. I'm also considering trying to play 4 chrome mox, as I've been happy to see it every time I do. Or maybe just 3. I don't know for certain. If anyone has any experience playing with different numbers of the moxen, I'd be interested to hear your takes on it.

Thanks for your time. :)

The deck you have is called Next Level Storm (NLS)

In this deck I think 2 is the right number of moxen, it is a slower deck that doesn't need the explosiveness. I would cut a Ponder for a Top. Generally Top is a better card since it is a reusable effect.

Pulverize should Probably be Shattering Spree or Meltdown or Krosan Grip.
I would take out the Tundra for a Scrublands, and a Volcanic for an Underground Sea

[deviant]

In his NLS w/chant emidln uses CoB's too, to make the manabase more reliable.
If you want to discuss the deck, I suggest you go

http://teamstormboards.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=stormcombo&action=display&thread=116&page=4

to that address. And no, I do not know how to make it look like the blue word that just says "here".

Anyway, SDT is the backbone of the deck, it lets you get into dday piles, lets you do silly stuff with LED, AND it even makes your draws run smoother especially when combined with fetchlands. Make it 4, but I'd cut the 3rd cabal rit instead of the 2nd ponder.
Also, interesting that you have liked c.mox, I have on the other hand hated it almost every time it's not a flip off of nauseam and would love to just cut them entirely.

Also, the second silence/chant isn't exactly needed. The deck ran pretty smooth with only the duresses, but I have personally liked to be able to find and play chant before I go igg. W/o it, I would just have to use some other way and brainstorm the useless igg away or something.

I don't really understand why you have ad nauseam in the sb either..

EDIT:


Is there a better list for beginners to storm to play?

It's called ANT, I'd also claim TES to be much easier to play than this (both have threads here worth looking into, but with TES I'd suggest you just read user Bryant Cook's posts instead of the TES thread, much more productive that way.)

[emidln]

We don't have a NLS thread here because all of the people that play the deck seem to have learned about it from Storm Boards (the only thread outside of storm boards that I know of is on the German-language mtg-forum.de).

NLS has slightly less chance of fizzling than UBw ANT with ITs and LEDs. This is entirely due to the ability to win with Mystical+SDT. Otherwise, the decks play identical resources (17-19 sources, 14-15 lands, average CMC of less than 1) with the differences being total colors, amount of cantrips, and amount of protection preboard (NLS runs a lot postboard when we know we need it). If you are just going to play the deck like ANT, NLS will run fine, although you might wonder what the strange cards like Doomsday and Meditate are doing in your deck.

As far as being easier to play, if by easier you simply mean fewer ways to win, then ANT does allow for slightly fewer decisions. There are never scenarios where you go off with Gaddock Teeg or Ethersworn Canonist on the table. You aren't ever calculating the chances of your opponent disrupting or killing you if you build a pass the turn Doomsday pile. You'll rarely worry about the correct color of mana to fetch out. Rarely, if ever in most lists, will you have to consider whether ETW can get you there.

However, games aren't won or lost on these decisions as often as players never make it there due to improperly playing Brainstorm, Ponder, and SDT. Misplaying something like Brainstorm has a very high chance of resulting in a gameloss for a legacy storm deck. This is something you'll need to come to terms with no matter your choice of storm deck (although I suspect that you might already be familiar with these, given these decisions are similar to decisions a Vintage player might be well-versed in from a few years ago).

When you're deciding on a cantrip, you're usually asking yourself, "how can I win?". In ANT the answer is always "get to 3BB with Ad Nauseam, 4BBB with a hellbent Infernal Tutor finding AdN, or 4-6+BBB with a hellbent Infernal Tutor finding IGG". In TES the answer gets a little murkier because you can win for both of those as well as "5BBBR (Wish->IT->Ad Nauseam), 3RUU+X (Diminishing Returns floating X), and 4RR (Wish->ETW)". In NLS, we have all of those (Diminishing Returns is an arguable choice in our wishboard, one that I still test), plus Doomsday options (1BBB, 2BBB, UBBB, BBBB, UBBBB, 1UBBB, 1BBBB, 2UBBB, 1RBBBBBB, 4RUBBBB, and 3UBBB+X to name of a few of the Doomsday in hand scenarios, add in Burning Wish and Infernal Tutor for double the fun (like ignoring Chalice @ 0, Chalice @ 1, Trinisphere)).

The Doomsday piles themselves aren't all that hard if you can follow some simple steps (I outline them in an article (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13968) on playing Doomsday against hate, but it generally applies to building piles anywhere). You can even just memorize a few of the more common ones (we have a list here (http://docs.google.com/View?id=d3hxs7m_16cr3v59c9)), although you'll likely find that simply memorizing instead of looking to the list for inspiration causes you to not be able to build custom piles as easily. Doomsday forces you to know your 75 inside and out, but if you're going to be successful with legacy storm this is a requirement anyway. Once you've done that, Doomsday is just another tutor (granted, one that lets you tutor for enough cards to end the game on the spot).

If you think finding lines of play is hard, I'm going to suggest that not only is NLS not the right deck for you, any storm deck (except maybe Belcher) will have a decision-tree that too high risk (almost any blown decision is a gameloss) for you to be successful with.

[hungryLIKEALION]

Wow, didn't expect to get this large a response.

I wasn't trying to say this deck seems too hard for me, I like how this deck plays. I like the amount of options it has compared to ANT which is far too linear and predictable for my tastes. I wasn't asking if there was an easier deck because I can't play this one, but just in case there was a better jumping off point for someone new to storm in legacy.

However, I like how many options this deck gives me. I want to play a deck with both IT and BW, and I like the 3 different win cons (IGG, AdN, DD). I like SDT a lot in this deck, as its utility is pretty awesome.
I have the ad nauseam in the wishboard because I kept getting into situations where it would be very useful to wish for it. I guess I just like having the option open to do it. So I guess it comes down to that I really like this list, so this is probably the list I'll play, with tweaks as I learn it better and get advice on it.

[deviant]

I have the ad nauseam in the wishboard because I kept getting into situations where it would be very useful to wish for it.

You might want to read those two again..

[hungryLIKEALION]

You might want to read those two again..

Heeeey, wakka wakka!

Well, that's why I posted here before trying to play this in a tournament. ;p

[emidln]

Wow, didn't expect to get this large a response.

I wasn't trying to say this deck seems too hard for me, I like how this deck plays. I like the amount of options it has compared to ANT which is far too linear and predictable for my tastes. I wasn't asking if there was an easier deck because I can't play this one, but just in case there was a better jumping off point for someone new to storm in legacy.

However, I like how many options this deck gives me. I want to play a deck with both IT and BW, and I like the 3 different win cons (IGG, AdN, DD). I like SDT a lot in this deck, as its utility is pretty awesome.
I have the ad nauseam in the wishboard because I kept getting into situations where it would be very useful to wish for it. I guess I just like having the option open to do it. So I guess it comes down to that I really like this list, so this is probably the list I'll play, with tweaks as I learn it better and get advice on it.

Ad Nauseam is not wishable with Burning Wish (it's sadly an instant). That's one of the reasons for Infernal Tutor/Diminishing Returns in the sideboard.

As far as tweaks to the list, until we get UR fetches from Zen, you should probably be running Bayou/Scrubland and 0 Trop/Tundra. Not being able to fetch out a given color is really awkward, probably more awkward than mulling a hand because you can't cast Brainstorm/Ponder. For testing this won't matter (just test with the UR fetches), but it will matter for events for the next couple weeks. As mentioned before, I cut 1 Mire, 1 Volc, and the Island (although I'm on the fence about this) for 2-3 City of Brass. This helps the color problems dramatically and doesn't seem to be that big of a deal in the lifeloss department. I don't know if I'll keep this change post-Zen.

You need 4 SDT. It's the best way to abuse SDT and its abusable itself after Ad Nauseam (for extra storm or to draw into Mystical Tutor's target without UU. Randomly, it's an alternate storm engine with two of them (and a lot of mana, although IGG helps this) with a Tendrils in hand. If you are set on having a 2nd chant effect in the maindeck, I recommend a second Silence. You're never using it for kicker and Divert does see play in some Merfolk and Thresh sideboards as an anti-Zoo card. Getting hit by splash hate for style is just poor. The added ability to Infernal Tutor for a second copy is solid. As for your sideboard, you might try out Diminishing Returns in the slot that Ad Nauseam occupied. There is a small risk that you'll RFG your remaining three win conditions, but I seriously doubt you ever encounter that scenario.

I really like NLS. Of all the storm decks I've played in Legacy, it feels like this one best makes use of its available resources. Everything has multiple uses and I feel like it really lets me outplay my opponents.

[hungryLIKEALION]

Yeah, I'm really enjoying this deck. The reason I like playing storm in vintage is because it always feels like a puzzle you have to solve. This deck very much has that same feel. Compared to ANT where it's just "Can I cast Ad Nauseam? No? K." Also, I love SDT in this deck, I am going up to four on it. I'm not going to play this deck in a tournament until around christmas probably, but I'm very excited to begin practicing with it.

So this is the list I'm looking at now.

// Lands
1 [A] Bayou
1 [B] Badlands
1 [A] Underground Sea
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [U] Volcanic Island
1 [B] Scrubland
2 [6E] City of Brass

// Spells
1 [WL] Doomsday
4 [6E] Mystical Tutor
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
1 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
3 [JU] Burning Wish
2 [MR] Chrome Mox
1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
1 [TE] Meditate
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
2 [M10] Ponder
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [A] Dark Ritual
3 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [US] Duress
1 [M10] Silence

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [WL] Doomsday
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 1 [NE] Reverent Silence
SB: 3 [SC] Xantid Swarm
SB: 1 [CS] Deathmark
SB: 1 [US] Meltdown
SB: 1 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [OV] Infernal Contract
SB: 1 [VI] Helm of Awakening
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot

I also have a few more questions.

How do people feel about playing more than one infernal tutor main? Is it considered unnecessary? Also, do I need to play 4 ponders, or is two okay? I'm not set on running two chant effects main, so I'll cut down to just the silence. Also, is Helm/Grapeshot still considered a good SB option? I think I want to play with it for a bit in the SB to see how often I use it, but is it considered no longer neccesary now? I'm just curious because I saw a lot of lists seem to have cut it now.

[deviant]

Helm-shot was used to get around silly hate-bears. You can make a dday stack that wins through teeg, or meddling mage on tendrils with it. Hell, you can make it win with a canonist on the table as a pass the turn pile!

This, is however not at all mandatory as you can just put a deathmark in the dday pile and call it a day. Now that you are running burning wishes md you want the deathmark in the sb anyways. (the lists with helm-shot were, I think, the plain doomsday fetchland tendrils decks.)
Let me remind you though, before canonist was printed the grapeshot itself was a perfectly fine answer to hatebears in TES (it has wishes).

And no, you don't need 4 ponders, 2-3 is perfect I think.
2 Infernals is under no circumstances necessary, but the second copy is the loosest slot in the deck. Other options for that slot are:
3rd ponder, 3rd cabal ritual, a protection spell (thoughtseize, extirpate, chant).

And out of those, I think 5 protection spells md is plenty enough, third ponder unnecessary and the cabal rit just plain excessive. So I run the infernal there for now, as it is the most versatile. Getting another duress, rit etc and keeping my threat density higher.
I don't know which one is the best, or if there is something even better, but imo the infernal just adds more to the deck than the third copies of ponder/c.rit.

EDIT: please do apply for the storm boards, there is a thread there for this deck. We are now polluting a thread with talk about another deck :(

[hungryLIKEALION]

Sorry. I made an account on Storm Boards, I'll go finish the application now. Sorry FT thread!

[Piceli89]

So, tomorrow I'm going to a tourney, and i wanted to bring FT. The curious fact is the version which I'm actually going to bring.
I read the thread a bit, and stuck in the 2-IGG version, the "old" FT list w/ Street wraiths. Don't know why, but i feel it's lots of fun to play; I'm a bit unsure of its competitiveness due to the lack of AdNauseam though, which is a no brainer when you want to win fast ad easy. But i hate Chrome Moxes so much that this doesn't allow me to play AN either :laugh:
Joking apart, I love the crazy sinergy between Wraith and Mysticals, even if i'm not really sure if i know the whole pack of tricks it can be abused with (of course i know that it comboes well with catrips too, fuels CRit's threshold very well, and it's a beast as a free cantrip w/Mystical when recurred via IGG, but i feel i'm still missing something). I know it may sound anachronistic if we stare at all the evolution this deck has gone through reaching 6-chant ANT, but this version really charms me.
The question is: is it really worth to play it in an aggro-control environment, mainly made of Merfolks, CanThresh, Bants, Goblins, Faerie-esque decks and fewer like DStompy,Stax, Black-based ones,? My concern is the fact that Relic Of Progenitus actually becomes a relevant card if sided in, because , well, it stops our (only) good storm engine, and going off "naturally" (cards+Tendrils) is for sure way more difficult. Of course I have an alt plan which consists of the ol' good EtW, but that's the classic card which against aggro-control may guarantee chances to win if cast turn 1-2 maximum, then between Merfolks, Monks, and Goyfs becomes quite shitty. I also tried the double tendrils configuration, but unfortunately it seemed that the 2nd Tedrils was redundant and often stuck in my hand and made Infernal tutor shit too.
For reference, here's the precise list I'd like to play:
1 [R] Tundra
1 [A] Scrubland
2 [A] Underground Sea
1 [UG] Island
1 [B] Volcanic Island
1 [PT] Swamp (2)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Street Wraith

// Spells
2 [PS] Orim's Chant
1 [TSP] Wipe Away
3 [LRW] Ponder
1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
2 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
4 [B] Dark Ritual
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [MI] Mystical Tutor
2 [M10] Silence
1 [FUT] Pact of Negation--> Meta call, and really good combined w/chants. I'd never cut it out, it steals so may wins against tempo decks.
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [ON] Chain of Vapor-->Hate bears, Pillar, against creature-based aggro decks with permanent hate.
SB: 3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce-->Mainly discard, Artifacts.dec Ontheplay, and perhaps also against control decks ala Landstill.
SB: 1 [PS] Orim's Chant-->Further protection against CanThresh, Faeries.
SB: 2 [TSP] Wipe Away--->Counterbalance.
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth-->Ichorid, Artifact, Random utility.
SB: 2 [10E] Hurkyl's Recall-->The usual artifacts.
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens-->It could be good against Countertop and Threshold if unexpected, but i fear EE.
SB: 2 [FUT] Slaughter Pact-->Hate bears. Cursecatcher?
1-Open

I'd like some advices if you played this list (not too much time ago, i mean :laugh: ) and can give me serious considerations about certain MUs, and the way i should side out particularly against Merfolks and RedThresh. I'm unsure if , against Canadian, some Pierces and the 5th Chant could join the main replacing Wraiths (the life investment is really high against a deck with burn spells and beaters), and perhaps a IGG too. EtW instead, if not revealed in the first match, should be a valid alt-win condition.

Another big one missing in the sb is Pyroblast, but i didn't want to add a fourth color (the Volc is just for ETW); against Merfolk i would tend to ramp some mana (avoiding daze effects ad mana denial) and try to go for a chant-pact protected win. EtW should go out, in favor of a bounce spell or an additional chant.

So, if anyone can help me in gaining me information about the sb strategies, i would really appreciate it. Plus, aswer this question: in a meta such the one i described above, can it be worth to play this over 6-chant AdN? I like the possibility to Alt-Win, and it makes me feel safer to know that i can go off even at 1 life, and that i don't play shit like Chrome Mox. But still, having played ANT i really miss those moments where i could just make chant, DRit, DRit, AdNauseam, plus only 5 protection spells, although all the cantrip ad tutoring engine, perplex me a bit. If it were NLS which has an amazing threat density, i could have understood it, but here the real engine is made out only of 4 ITs and 2 Iggs. Should i try a Draw4? I feel Cruel Bargain/If.Cotract is somehow meh because it depends on a draw4 and this deck loses life very fast, and i really dunno about Meditate.

Ah, i have tried Doomsday (pure version and hybrid) too, but 4 SDTs just don't match my playstyle that much. I like it a bit faster :wink:

[metalhead]

honestly if your goint to be playing an older iggy style FT, one md death wish is nuts. it also allows you to play silly things like serenity in your sideboard which just beats things like d.stompy/stax. as well as allowing you to get that last chant effect you need. random bounce spell for hate bears. a tendrils out of the board if something happend to your 1 of tendrils md. emidln and i both tried many differenc cards in that slot. where i believe you have pact of negation? everything from abeyance,grim tutor,infernal contract,meditate,extra bounce spell, second tendrils. and death wish was by far more useful than the rest...that is until emidln found a goofy little dollar rare called doomsday...but thats another story and pretty much a bad idea if you're playing street wraith instead of top.

[emidln]

I've had a lot of requests for this decklist, so here goes:

// DDFT Summer 2k10

4 Burning Wish
3 Doomsday
2 Lim-Dul's Vault
1 Infernal Tutor

4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
1 Wipe Away

1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Shelldock Isle

1 Meditate
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony

4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground SEa
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp

SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Doomsday
SB: 1 Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 Infernal Contract
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Deathmark
sB: 1 Pulverize
SB: 3 Xantid Swarm
SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers

The only thing I'm currently unhappy with is my inability to play a 17 card sideboard. Infernal Contract might get cut for a Pyroclasm, but I really like Burning Wish to function as a draw spell after Doomsday.

It's worth noting that this list has three primary modes of attack:

(1) Ill-Gotten Gains into Tendrils via Doomsday, Burning Wish, or Infernal Tutor

(2) Doomsday into Tendrils

(3) Doomsday into Emrakul

Some arguable cards for inclusion:

Cloud of Faeries as a 1-of enables these two extremely useful piles:

SDT in play, 2 cards, 1U post-Doomsday

Brainstorm
LED
Shelldock Isle
Cloud of Faeries
Emrakul


You SDT into Brainstorm, Brainstorm with 1 floating into SDT, LED, Shelldock Isle, play Shelldock Isle hiding Emrkaul and putting Cloud of Faeries on top, play LED, play SDT, break LED and use SDT to draw Cloud of Faeries, play it floating U to untap blue land + shelldock isle and now profit.

BS in hand + 2 cards, 1U post-Doomsday

Shelldock Isle
Lotus Petal
Cloud of Faeries
Emrakul
BLANK

You Brainstorm into Shelldock Isle, Lotus Petal, Cloud of Faeries throwing away 2 chaff cards. Play Shelldock Isle hiding emrakul, then Lotus Petal and use your 1 floating + petal to play Cloud of Faeries untapping a land + isle. Proceed to profit phase.

Cloud of Faeries is better than Twiddle effects or Amulet because it helps you avoid Edicts and it can be a draw spell into a Tendrils DD pile if you're not looking to Emrakul.

Extra LDV are arguable. 3 is probably the right number, but to accomodate my 16 card sideboard, there is a Bayou in the maindeck as the 17th land (16 real lands + shelldock).

Rain of Filth might be better than a Cabal Ritual #3, possibly better than Cabal Ritual #2 with 16 real lands. I haven't tested this yet.

I've tested this vs black tempo thresh, new horizons, zoo w/teeg maindeck, jacestill, bant survival, bgw confidant, merfolk, and blue lands.

UGB Tempo Thresh
Depending on the sideboard plan that black tempo thresh has (I played against Extirpate + Spell Pierces + Needles as well as Spell Pierces + Needles + Hydroblasts), your match is positive to even with good play (not even perfect play as I was making several mistakes that I caught after a turn or two). You want to side out Wipe Away, Emrakul plan, and 2cc stuff that isn't Burning Wish for TS + green cards. If they have hydroblast, you probably want to consider taking out Wishes and leaving IT+LDV plan to bring in ETW, Tendrils, Doomsday and maybe keep a Cabal Rit. If they have removal in g2, you probably want to take out Xantid Swarm in g3 rather than gambling that they might not have it. If t

New Horizons
This is really similar to UGB Tempo Thresh except they usually don't have Spell Snare and Spell Pierce, but they will probably have Pierce main. They might have MM in the sb, their clock is slightly faster, but they don't have Dark Confidant to draw a ton of cards either. I found that this was roughly even (I won more than I lost, but i only played about 20 games) and that in g1, Emrakul plan wasn't even that bad if I had a Duress to clear the way and saw no Waste/Stifle. Sideboard should be similar to New Horizons, possibly with Deathmark brought in for Mage or just to kill something if you draw it. ETW isn't the stone cold nuts due to some number of EE in the main, but it's still decent since you tend to have resolved Duress/TS before going for it.

Zoo w/Maindeck Teeg
This was a cakewalk. I went 8-0 preboard and stopped counting postboard. If zoo doesn't respect us with Mindbreak Traps or Chants, you should 2-0 them in every match you don't mull into oblivion. Teeg resolved a few turn 2s and it did approximately nothing for my opponent. I did lose a postboard game to double bolt+ fireblast, although I'm unsure that Zoo should be playing Teeg and Fireblast. Anyway, outside of the where I lost of of my life and then was 10'd, I didn't drop a game.

Jacestill
This was really positive game 1 and didn't seem to be signficantly harder games 2 and 3. You can't slow roll them quite as well, but their deck is a lumbering pile and they tend to fold to well-timed Duresses. As always vs blue, turn 1 Duress is almost unilaterally wrong unless followed by Petal + bomb. You probably shouldn't side in Xantid Swarm and ETW isn't as bombalicious as it vs New Horizons and Tempo Thresh. Carpet is still fine, even if they have EE+Deed as it can be played as a Ritual effect on your combo turn and doesn't get Spell Snared.

Bant Survival
I've tested this about 30 games and had mixed luck. I had some awful hands early on and a lot of mulls to 5. In the next session, I didn't mull to 5 every game and seemed to do very well game 1. DD, go isn't as strong against them as it is normal CB decks since they'll sometimes blow you out with Survival into Meddling Mage stopping Emrkaul. If they aren't playing CB, the matchup seems slightly better. Postboard, they can bring in a wide range of stuff, Deathmark and Wipe Away are good here and your green cards can be okay as well. You don't want to side out too much business as they can have a quick clock. I can't see this being any worse than even.

BGW Confidant

Emrakul is an awful plan vs 15ish LD spells (Waste, Sinkhole, Smallpox, Vindicate) unless you have Cloud of Faeries. The discard isn't that great vs them. The green sideboard is worthless. ETW sometimes works, but this list had some number of Deed and those were very bad for me. On the upside, if they don't have turn 1-2 Hymn, they didn't win a game. On the downside, turn 1-2 hymn generally loses you the game. SDT is very good against them and the standard Tendrils plan of dropping artifacts into some sort of tutor into IGG is still strong. It was less strong vs this build packing Deed, but it was still better than nothing. At least once I was able to bait a Deed with LED to win via ETW. It's worth siding in IGG #2 in this matchup. Deathmark is okay if you suspect some sort of hatebear, or just want to buy time by killing Goyf. The more suicid-esque, the worse your matchup is.

Ug Merfolk
Merfolk wasn't the best game 1. I tested vs Ug and it's signficantly stronger if you have Cloud of Faeries to Emrakul this turn. Ug doesn't usually have Stifle, so if they don't have active wasteland on the table, Cloud of Faeries+Emrakul plan is generally gg. Duress effects are good vs them, Xantid Swarm is outstanding, and Carpet is randomly amazing or awful, but generally good enough to be a counter to 1-2 tax effects. Postboard, I was winning most of my games. Preboard I was losing to the double cursecatcher draws mostly, and it doesn't seem that difficult if you have a good hand.

Blue Lands
It's really difficult to lose this matchup. They have sideboard hate, but they have no clock. You have enough ability to avoid Chalice via Burning Wish and fetches that this isn't really too hard. You autowin game 1.

Metalworker/Grim Monolotith/Trinisphere decks
We lose these most of the time. The best bet is quick DD for Emrakul and hope they don't have Wasteland. It gets progressively worse after their turn one so you don't really want to keep playing. If you want a good solution, side some lands and Serenity. I haven't been impressed with their ability to do anything other than crush combo, so I wouldn't worry about them making it into the winners bracket in a major event. Maybe a list will surface that makes this a more relevant matchup, but I haven't seen one so far.

All in all, I'll be playing this deck for the foreseeable future.

[GreenOne]

Here you are, here's my list, crafted to include AN, and still have access to a good number of DDs.

// Lands
1 [7E] Island (2)
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [U] Scrubland
2 [U] Underground Sea
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [A] Tundra
1 [U] Volcanic Island
1 [B] Badlands

// Spells
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
2 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
3 [PS] Orim's Chant
2 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [R] Dark Ritual
1 [TE] Meditate
1 [WL] Doomsday
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [LRW] Ponder
2 [MR] Chrome Mox
2 [AL] Lim-Dul's Vault
4 [JU] Burning Wish
3 [FNM] Duress

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [WL] Doomsday
SB: 1 [LRW] Ponder
SB: 1 [FNM] Duress
SB: 1 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [VI] Helm of Awakening
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 1 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 1 [JGC] Vindicate
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [10E] Deathmark
SB: 1 [ROE] Recurring Insight

You could probably play a more stable manabase, but I'm a big fan of Chants.
I like the way you can side in just the helm of awakening (that is not that bad on its own for storm combo) and still have the infinite grapeshot kill thanks to burning wish piles.

This is probably a faster and less DD-centric version compared to the deck emidln wrote just up there, but it alsolacks the Emrakul kill (to accomodate AN).

Overall I'm quite happy with the deck, in the few tests I've done.

[GreenOne]

Here you are, here's my list, crafted to include AN, and still have access to a good number of DDs.

// Lands
1 [7E] Island (2)
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [U] Scrubland
2 [U] Underground Sea
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [A] Tundra
1 [U] Volcanic Island
1 [B] Badlands

// Spells
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
2 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
3 [PS] Orim's Chant
2 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [R] Dark Ritual
1 [TE] Meditate
1 [WL] Doomsday
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [LRW] Ponder
2 [MR] Chrome Mox
2 [AL] Lim-Dul's Vault
4 [JU] Burning Wish
3 [FNM] Duress

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [WL] Doomsday
SB: 1 [LRW] Ponder
SB: 1 [FNM] Duress
SB: 1 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [VI] Helm of Awakening
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 1 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 1 [JGC] Vindicate
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [10E] Deathmark
SB: 1 [ROE] Recurring Insight

You could probably play a more stable manabase, but I'm a big fan of Chants.
I like the way you can side in just the helm of awakening (that is not that bad on its own for storm combo) and still have the infinite grapeshot kill thanks to burning wish piles.

This is probably a faster and less DD-centric version compared to the deck emidln wrote just up there, but it alsolacks the Emrakul kill (to accomodate AN).

Overall I'm quite happy with the deck, in the few tests I've done.

[rsaunder]

Emidln, I was very taken with the Show and Tell variants pre-bannings, and have been having some luck with them even now. Do you feel like the tempo.dec matchup is any worse with your current build? I know the chalice aggro matchup can't be anywhere near as good without the package and FOW.

I guess I'm just thinking out loud about the pros and cons of bastardizing my SB to pull the transformation. I'll be running it this sunday and we'll see how it plays.

EDIT:

BS in hand + 2 cards, 1U post-Doomsday

Shelldock Isle
Lotus Petal
Cloud of Faeries
Emrakul
BLANK

BS in hand + 2 cards and 1U post DDay just wins with tendrils anyway... I'm having trouble thinking of when this would be better, since they can still counter spells post DDay. Maybe if you were expecting a counter, since you have the pass the turn stack after anyway? Meddling Mage on Tendrils out? Mindbreak trap in opponent's hand? It doesn't seem strong enough to warrant the inclusion imo.

[alderon666]

// DDFT Summer 2k10

4 Burning Wish
3 Doomsday
2 Lim-Dul's Vault
1 Infernal Tutor

4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
1 Wipe Away

1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Shelldock Isle

1 Meditate
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony

4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground SEa
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp

SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Doomsday
SB: 1 Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 Infernal Contract
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Deathmark
sB: 1 Pulverize
SB: 3 Xantid Swarm
SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers


I have few thoughts on the list.

It's pretty much what I would come up by myself but I'm a little concerned about all the blue lands, 4 of them seem like a lot when trying to hardcast DD.

Another thing, do we really need 4 Lotus Petal. We probably do, to get that extra speed, but moving out of Ad Nauseam territory 0 mana artifcats not named LED don't look so hot.

Can you teach me how is the draw 4 useful? Looks clunky too me.

No Krosan Grip? And all those 1 mana green cards take a lot of space, sometimes I wish I had some different wish-target options instant of that. I do realise that the Merfolk/New Horizons match must be ugly without them.

The Faerie really intrigued me. It's probably too clunky to MD, but insta Emrakul would surely give us an edge against Zoo and the sorts. It does double duty as a cantrip into DD pile, can't we just pretend it's good enough? LOL!

Other than that the list looks pretty good. But the question remains, is it fast/resilient enough to face the new metagame?

[Pulp_Fiction]

I actually really like the Cloud of Faeries idea. I was thinking it makes an Emrakul Pile that avoids Mindbreak Trap after a pass the turn pile so you avoid Mindbreak Trap/any additional hate AND it is just as effective as winning with IGG. Which is just sick. It also might avoid Wasteland if your opponent is dumb and is slow-rolling the Wasteland cause they know it comes into play tapped. It cycles so it isn't a horrid topdeck either. I think LDV may be the way too go. I still like PTutor but I have to playtest more.

[emidln]

Cloud of Faeries is good where IGG isn't. You'll notice that the two cost the same (1U + 2 cards + SDT/BS). Cloud of Faeries might even be better than IGG is against aggro if they have relevant cards (such as burn spells) in the yard and mana up.

Cloud of Faeries doesn't ignore Mindbreak Trap unless you already have SDT in play and untap with land drop + 1U available. If you Brainstorm into CoF into Shelldock cheating Emrakul, they can just RFG your Emrakul unless they are awful and/or like losing.

Blue lands cast Brainstorm and LDV and I like this. Not being able to go turn 2 Brainstorm + fetch angers me enough with Badlands, Bayou, and Swamp in the deck.

The tempo matchup with Xantid + Carpet of Flowers is outstanding. I was making mistakes and still winning and the games I lost were extremely close. You might have to build a lot of off the cuff Doomsday piles to exploit temporary gaps in their protection due to your Duress effects, but assuming you can do this, you can steal wins out of nowhere (in addition the normal beating of Xantid/Carpet/SDT).

Re: Draw4

I assume you mean Infernal Contract. I like making my Burning Wish draw into Doomsday piles. Nobody else seems to like this card, but I use it constantly.

Lotus Petal and Dark Ritual are the two most common ways of casting Doomsday by turn 2. Further, Lotus Petal helps you against Wasteland aggro decks, Blood Moon decks, and is helpful for casting you Burning Wishes, Xantid Swarms, and Carpet of Flowers.

Re: Speed

I've been convinced for a long time that any speed issues with Doomsday are caused by the pilot, not by the deck. I can very consistently kill by turn 3 with this deck with a high frequency of turn 2 storm kills as well.

[JeroenC]

I can't say I have the best ratio of turn two storm finishes and turn three is hard on me these days, but when I played DD more often than I do now, turn 3 was quite possible. Just keep practising.

[GreenOne]

@emidln: did you test Ponder in the SB draw4 slot?

[emidln]

No, paying 9 to go Wish->Ponder->Meditate into Rit, Rit, Tendrils, is a lot worse than paying 5 into Petal, SDT, LED, LED (Wish->Tendrils).

[alderon666]

How good is the IGG in the SB if Tutors are scarce? I don't think it should be replaced by anything, but more often than not I see myself no being able to Wish for it because I only have mana and cantrips in my grave.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Hmmmmm, Mindbreak Trap can counter Emrakul? I guess Emrakul says "can't be countered" and Mindbreak Trap says "Exhile" so ... yeah, damn, I totally lost some faith in it now. Didn't even make that connection till I looked at both cards. CoF is still good, better than IGG .... not at all, but unlike IGG it is never a dead draw since it either adds free storm, cycles, or beats face. I really like it in the board for aggro matches but I can't think of a single reason to put it in the main. I guess if you want to totally nerf IGG and not rely on the graveyard at all but I personally think thats terrible and you would be limiting the capabilities of the deck by doing so. I would say play both or just play IGG.

Also, it seems like everyone I talk too has had serious hate for IGG and I have no idea why. Its so good and gives so many free wins. Why has there been so much dislike for this card, is it really because of Mindbreak Trap?

[emidln]

I don't mean that IGG is bad in general, just that in places where 1U + draw spell + 2 cards = IGG is bad, 1U + draw spell + 2 cards = Emrakul is probably fine. I'm not cutting IGG from my maindeck. For that matter, I don't even play Cloud of Faeries, I just see where it's potentially useful.

[rsaunder]

IMO, cloud of faeries is a replacement for IGG, either MB expecting lots of non-tempo blue or SB. I can see it being better in the wish variants than the S&T variants though, since that deck has few cheap outs against tempo.dec.

[GreenOne]

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/M11/ygonv760lw_EN.jpg
Is this going to change something?
it's sort of Orim's Chant in green, so we can play it maindeck in place of Thoughtseize or something.

Is it worth the slots?

[bruno_tiete]

My impression regarding Autumn's Veil is that its inability to Chantwalk is a dealbreaker. While it could be an improvement in blue (specially tempo) matchups, it's dead weight when you are trying to finish the game asap.

I could be wrong, though, as Thoughtseize is less than spectacular against aggro strategies.

I have missed a couple Ponders in the list, as you don't want to throw away your only cantrip in search for mana/business just to get to situations were you have to pass the turn and pray. I am really unsure about what to cut, though.

As a last minor complaint, Burning Wishes always seem to make me one card short of Threshed CRits.

[DarthVicious]

I'm not a fan of the Shelldock->Emrakul plan, I don't know why. I have 2 EtW in the board, along with Bribery as a BW target. Yeah, you read that right. Bribery. Telemin Performance does not accomplish the same thing.

Took a reanimator player by surprise one time. In hindsight I should've taken the Sphinx instead of going for the legend kill on Iona. Horrible misplay. But you had to see the faces of everyone next to us, especially his.

Ritual, Ritual, Nauseam? Resolves?
Ten bucks.
Ritual, Doomsday pile FTW?
Hundred bucks.
BW for Bribery to steal your nastiest fatty?
Priceless.

[jamis]

I've been testing this deck, but I felt not being able to wish for acceleration was pretty harmful, so I added some Rite of Flame. I'm going to start testing this list:

2 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Swamp
1 Island

1 Shelldock Isle
1 Cloud of Faeries
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

1 Meditate
1 Ill-gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony

4 Burning Wish
3 Doomsday
2 Lim-dul's Vault

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
1 Ponder

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
3 Rite of Flame
4 Lotus Petal
1 Cabal Ritual

4 Duress
1 Thoughtseize
1 Wipe Away

Sideboard
3 Defense Grid
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Show and Tell
2 Deathmark
1 Sadistic Sacrament
1 Thoughtseize
1 Doomsday
1 Ponder
1 Rite of Flame
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony

[DarthVicious]

I've been testing this deck, but I felt not being able to wish for acceleration was pretty harmful, so I added some Rite of Flame.

I've been looking for wishable acceleration and can't seem to find any worthwile. BW->Rite of Flame is more of a late game play, it depends on how many you've seen pre-DD.

0 RoF in grave = -1 net mana, +2 storm
1 RoF in grave = even mana, +2 storm
2 RoF in grave = +1 mana, +2 storm
3 RoF in grave = +2 mana, +2 storm

For Mana Seism you'd have to sac at least four land to make it worthwile. I even thought of running Inner Fire when I was running Ad Nauseam. I just did a search and came up with 19 sorceries that add mana, most of which involve creatures and/or green.

BW->Drafna's Restoration might be the best option, although it pretty much demands you have some card draw, and that you've used some artifact mana already (Petals and LEDs).

I've spent some time on Gatherer. Quite some time.

[Aleksandr]

I played DDFT on yesterdays tournament (12 people, 4 rounds, prizes were Bayou HP, two fetches)

list:

Qty Name
// Lands
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Shelldock Isle
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
//\\
// Creatures
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Cloud of Faeries
//\\
// Spells
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Doomsday
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Meditate
1 Wipe Away
4 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
1 Pithing Needle
//\\
// Sideboard
1 Tropical Island
3 Pithing Needle
2 Echoing Truth
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Krosan Grip
4 Dark Confidant


Round 1, Vaclav, Elves

I lost g1 to fast beats and I sided wrong, so I lost the g2 too.
I thought to Deed away his Elves, but this is in no way Merfolk match. I always lacked one mana to Deed the board, because with all his accelleration, he is one turn ahead of me every time I wanna sac the bomb. Confidants did nothing, too, they can draw the cards, but that's about it.
I should have rather keep the discard and Seize him of Elves and mainly Duress the Crossroads and Land Grants to slow him down. Nvm, next time I'll be wiser.


Round 2 , Martin, UR CB-Painter

Not that I love 8 Blasts maindeck, but otoh, I can easily avoid the Grindstone kill. Postboard Deed gets rid of all the vexing artifacts and CB, while Confidants draw both cards and opponent's life total.
I cannot remember how I exactly it happened, but I lost g1 to fast Mages beat supported by CB lock.
G2 Martin kept a strong hand lacking any mana, which cost him some turns. I played double Confidant into mini-Tendrils, so onto g3.
The third game was very interesting, as we both played some ammount of defense, be it Deed, Needle, CB, Duress, etc. Finally I went for the Emrakul kill, not that it was 100% safe, but he had nigh empoty hand and I just have to try anything, before it is too late, as he build the lock and had serious beats onboard. After DD he have drawn the Mage, but was one mana short of killing me by Stone, so he just took the Needle and pitched the Isle. This was fine, as I had Wipe Away, but I just realized that he could have kill me by blasting the Isle. Next time I must not forget this option!


Round 3, Tom, Tress

He had horrible hand with no acceleration, many draw effects and very few enchantments, moreover the bad ones. I Emrakuled him.
G2 he mulled to three after he made an error during the first mull. This wasn't much exciting game. I comboed via DD.


Round 4, Michal?, RG LD.dec

I was hit by some Stone Rains, Molten Rains and another Rains, but I finally drawn the land needed to start the chain. I killed him with an IGG loop.
G2 I DDed for the Tendrils 30+. Not much to say.


So...
I went 3-1 which was 2% less short of the 3rd place. Nevermind. I lost to Elves, but this was mainly due to incorrect sideboard. I won some games, but honestly, these victories were sometimes far from well-deserved. I need to practice, too, because I could have won the g2 of Elves match, if only I went for the DD->Emr, swing for 15, BS->Rit, Rit, ToA.

I am satisfied with the deck, but I am bit affraid of the Emrakul toolbox. Although strong in some matchups, it just makes the deck worse against non-blue decks. Otoh, I can win with it from nowhere and it is really hard to spoil it, as it takes a monkey to complete the Emrakul pile and turn him sideways. So I stay true to the great 15/15 for now.

[sam.]

How effective has Cloud of Faeries been for you? I was considering it in my own list, but couldn't think of enough scenarios where I wouldn't already win with Tendrils.

Edit: Oh, and also congratulations on the strong finish!

[Aleksandr]

Edit: Oh, and also congratulations on the strong finish!

Thanks!


How effective has Cloud of Faeries been for you? I was considering it in my own list, but couldn't think of enough scenarios where I wouldn't already win with Tendrils.

Well, they are there to speed up the Emrakul kill by one turn and save him from Edict/Curfew. From time to time you can also cycle them and if you're not a moron like I am, this can be helpful... just think if you want to cycle now, or after you set up.

They're far from stellar, but they do what you want them to do, and DD -> BS, CoF, Emr is 16 life swing... and since now you should be able to seal the game with Rit + ToA.


EDIT: I just remembered that I defeated the Tress guy by DD-Med-IGG loop with removal backup in g2. Not that it matters, just for the record that Emrakul has one scalp less.

[rsaunder]

Thanks!
They're far from stellar, but they do what you want them to do, and DD -> BS, CoF, Emr is 16 life swing... and since now you should be able to seal the game with Rit + ToA.

I don't see how annhialator 6 doesn't win you 99% of these situations. I almost never look at Emmy as damage but as massive recurring removal.

@DarthViscious: All Sun's Dawn is probably the best option, but it's not worth the slot. Neither is bribery, if you have 7 mana going on you should just win the game instead of being cute.

[DarthVicious]

@DarthViscious: All Sun's Dawn is probably the best option, but it's not worth the slot. Neither is bribery, if you have 7 mana going on you should just win the game instead of being cute.

True. Just today I decided I'd rather bring in my own Emrakul piles for DD than BW->Bribery. Bribery is ok against Iona on black, and you can get their Progenitus/Emrakul/blah blah fattie blah. But Bribery can be countered... which sucks. Bribery is really a leftover on my SB from when I was running AdN.

[Aleksandr]

I don't see how annhialator 6 doesn't win you 99% of these situations.

Because his board was Forest, Forest, Forest, Forest, Llanowar, Llanowar, Quirion, Priest of T., Priest of T., Archdruid, Archdruid, Archdruid, Visionary, Visionary, Visionary, Visionary, Fyndhorn, Champion, Messenger, Messenger, ESG, Empath, Empath, Brass Herald, Brass Herald, Brass Herald, Symbiote, Symbiote, and he held Caller of the Claw.

That's why the sole Emrakul was not enough to win.

[rsaunder]

Because his board was Forest, Forest, Forest, Forest, Llanowar, Llanowar, Quirion, Priest of T., Priest of T., Archdruid, Archdruid, Archdruid, Visionary, Visionary, Visionary, Visionary, Fyndhorn, Champion, Messenger, Messenger, ESG, Empath, Empath, Brass Herald, Brass Herald, Brass Herald, Symbiote, Symbiote, and he held Caller of the Claw.

That's why the sole Emrakul was not enough to win.

Geeze, I don't think I've ever emrakul'd against a situation like that. Against decks that have no burn and will tend to go creature hordes, ToA is your friend, you've gotta know what way to go in what situation. If you could do a cloud of faeries pile you could have done an IGG pile just as easily and outright won without the cute second turn tricks.

[Aleksandr]

Geeze, I don't think I've ever emrakul'd against a situation like that. Against decks that have no burn and will tend to go creature hordes, ToA is your friend, you've gotta know what way to go in what situation. If you could do a cloud of faeries pile you could have done an IGG pile just as easily and outright won without the cute second turn tricks.

Yeah, because during every game I draw exactly those cards that I exactly need. You know that sometimes things go wrong, don't ya?

I was unable to IGG for the kill, because I was short of some cards. And I was unable to double Doomsday, because I was... (drumroll) short of some cards. I was also unable to DD -> Meditate.win, because (I hope you already know it...) I was short of some cards.
I could pretty well won if I Emrakuled for sixteen and than went Rit+ToA, but I didn't notice that there's a possibility how to play it.
At the end of the day I really don't care how I win. Be it Mrak or Tendrils 42+, as long as I win, that's all I care about. And I failed at this quest.

The end.

[DarthVicious]

Yeah, because during every game I draw exactly those cards that I exactly need.

Sarcasm. I like it.

On a side note, I sometimes have a hard time finding DD/BW->DD... I'm wondering if anyone's tested Personal Tutor. I don't like how you have to reveal the card though. Any other suggestions? More cantrips maybe, considering I'm only running BS and Top?

[rsaunder]

I run:

3 Doomsday
4 B. Wish
3 Lim Dul's Vault
1 Infernal Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 SDT
2 Ponder

And have almost no trouble finding pieces. Personal tutor sucks... avoid it.

[loop]

What did you cut to fit the Ponders in? Sometimes I wish I were running a couple more cantrips.

[Aleksandr]

Sarcasm. I like it.

:smile:


On a side note, I sometimes have a hard time finding DD/BW->DD... I'm wondering if anyone's tested Personal Tutor. I don't like how you have to reveal the card though. Any other suggestions? More cantrips maybe, considering I'm only running BS and Top?

I ordered four PT right before the prices increased and I didn't find the need to play them since then. They are in any direction worse than MT was and giving my opponent the knowledge what exactly I gonna do on my next turn is not a powerful move.
I've heard of a guy that played some number of them to great finish, but...
Otoh, it is one the best tutors if you want to stay solely UB (the other been LDV), so maybe it could be of help, because even with eleven cantrips, I sometimes get my cards too late...
But don't forget that I pack the Emrakul kill main deck, with additional two or three cards for protection:Wasteland, so if I'd cut the Emr.win, I'd have another free slots for... what? Another cantrip? another acceleration? Or Personal Tutor? IDK...

EDIT:
The guy was playing Reanimator.

[DarthVicious]

I absolutely hate Ponder. I always seem to Ponder into crap, meanwhile Brainstorm gives me two of exactly what I needed. Maybe I'll start testing with LDV again, it wasn't so bad. I cut it for Cabal Ritual when I had trouble casting Doomsday. It's also nasty with Brainstorm.

[rsaunder]

I was unable to IGG for the kill, because I was short of some cards. And I was unable to double Doomsday, because I was... (drumroll) short of some cards. I was also unable to DD -> Meditate.win, because (I hope you already know it...) I was short of some cards.
I could pretty well won if I Emrakuled for sixteen and than went Rit+ToA, but I didn't notice that there's a possibility how to play it.
At the end of the day I really don't care how I win. Be it Mrak or Tendrils 42+, as long as I win, that's all I care about. And I failed at this quest.

The end.

Well, to get into the emrakul pile with CoF, you need to have not hit your land drop this turn, have 1U available after doomsday, and a brainstorm+2 cards in hand (to brainstorm into shelldock+CoF). This means that you could have done this instead, given the exact same situation:

Brainstorm in hand, 1U available after doomsday:

SDT
LED
LED
IGG
TOA

Brainstorm into SDT LED LEd replacing the 2 cards, play all 3. Sac LEDs for BBBUUU and reorder with a blue to put IGG on top. Top into IGG, then IGG into Brainstorm LED LED with U floating. Play LED's, then brainstorm on the stack sac your LED's for BBBBBB. Draw into 2 cards and top, take top. Replay top, reorder (BBBB floating) top into tendrils and ToA for 10+doomsday+any other spells you platyed before.

So thanks for the snark, but unless you did a pass the turn stack against that board and somehow convinced him not to kill you so he could "see something really cool", I was right.

[emidln]

For what it's worth, you could have built a pass the turn pile that wins off 1U and 2 cards too which is the correct choice if you absolutely must pass the turn vs an aggro deck capable of putting a bunch of permanents into play.

You can also CoF into Emrakul via SDT in play and no Brainstorm (it's in the pile) via:

Brainstorm
Lion's Eye Diamond
Shelldock Isle
Cloud of Faeries
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

[Darkenslight]

For what it's worth, you could have built a pass the turn pile that wins off 1U and 2 cards too which is the correct choice if you absolutely must pass the turn vs an aggro deck capable of putting a bunch of permanents into play.

You can also CoF into Emrakul via SDT in play and no Brainstorm (it's in the pile) via:

Brainstorm
Lion's Eye Diamond
Shelldock Isle
Cloud of Faeries
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

I was going to say you'll deck, but you have two cards in hand (derf). BS cards into the deck, drop Shelly, hiding Emmy, drop LED, cast CoF, untapping Shell+Blue source, cast Emmy. Take turn to zerg opponent's face with Emmy plus CoF.

[median]

I think what this is really saying is that we need cloud of faeries main. While most or all of the problems it solves could be done with tendrils, its less complicated and makes winning easier. Also some of the problems it solves can't be done with tendrils. I'm cutting meditate from my list and putting Infernal contract in my wishboard.

[Fons]

Cutting Meditate from the main definitely seems like you'll lose to Zoo more due to burn.

[emidln]

Cutting Meditate is one of the worst ideas I've heard in awhile. If you want Cloud of Faeries, cut something else for it.

FWIW, I'm not currently running Burning Wish.

[rsaunder]

most or all of the problems it solves could be done with tendrils, its less complicated and makes winning easier.

So what you're saying is that if the deck was played by a good pilot one wouldn't need to play with CoF? I mean, if its only purpose is to be a crutch that sounds terrible.

I'll say it again: CoF is a replacement for IGG that's better against blue decks. It fits into the same piles, letting you win the same ways. It requires shelldock+emmy MB though, taking you up to 5 slots not including IGG for "bad" cards that you don't want to see in an opener. Especially wiothout burning wish to get IGG, I wouldnt go this route.

[loop]

FWIW, I'm not currently running Burning Wish.

Interesting, are you trying a UB(x) list closer to Rev614 ?
Because with the last lists you / pulpfiction posted, I don't quite see what could replace BWish seemlessly.

I've tried a few things including maxing out Ponder, adding Personal Tutor, etc. and I wasn't really satisfied.
I assume you're running a full set of LDV to compensate, the card seems potentially awesome?

[DarthVicious]

Interesting, are you trying a UB(x) list closer to Rev614 ?
Because with the last lists you / pulpfiction posted, I don't quite see what could replace BWish seemlessly.

I've tried a few things including maxing out Ponder, adding Personal Tutor, etc. and I wasn't really satisfied.
I assume you're running a full set of LDV to compensate, the card seems potentially awesome?

I can't think of anything to replace it. I'm running 4 BW, 3 DD, 3 LDV. In my opinion, those are the most versatile and powerful options. That aren't banned, of course, and that aren't Ponder. I hate Ponder with the fury of a thousand suns.

The only one I could/should be running that I'm not is Infernal Tutor. Rarely do I want to tutor for something I already have, and if I'm hellbent I can't see IT being profitable unless I intended on being hellbent.

[oarsman]

I tried playing without burning wish also. I liked being able to cut red and increase the basic land count. However, I really felt the decreased access to doomsday. I don't personally like lim dul's vault much after trying it. I am now at 2 ponder, 2 infernal tutor, 3 burning wish. I thought of playing two cunning wish, as that would give access to pretty much everything I want in the board, but that seems like it would push the deck more towards turn four, which is obviously bad.

[Aleksandr]

blah.

I had nothing but Top.




pass the turn



Because his board was Forest, Forest, Forest, Forest, Llanowar, Llanowar, Quirion, Priest of T., Priest of T., Archdruid, Archdruid, Archdruid, Visionary, Visionary, Visionary, Visionary, Fyndhorn, Champion, Messenger, Messenger, ESG, Empath, Empath, Brass Herald, Brass Herald, Brass Herald, Symbiote, Symbiote, and he held Caller of the Claw.




pass the turn



Because his board was Forest, Forest, Forest, Forest, Llanowar, Llanowar, Quirion, Priest of T., Priest of T., Archdruid, Archdruid, Archdruid, Visionary, Visionary, Visionary, Visionary, Fyndhorn, Champion, Messenger, Messenger, ESG, Empath, Empath, Brass Herald, Brass Herald, Brass Herald, Symbiote, Symbiote, and he held Caller of the Claw.




pass the turn



Because his board was Forest, Forest, Forest, Forest, Llanowar, Llanowar, Quirion, Priest of T., Priest of T., Archdruid, Archdruid, Archdruid, Visionary, Visionary, Visionary, Visionary, Fyndhorn, Champion, Messenger, Messenger, ESG, Empath, Empath, Brass Herald, Brass Herald, Brass Herald, Symbiote, Symbiote, and he held Caller of the Claw.




pass the turn


Thanks for your input guys!

[median]

I think the main advantage to dropping BW is to gain a 15 card sideboard with no singletons. This is something I would like to explore.

Burning wish is great because it can fetch you lots of needed tools but it leaves you with a side board thats next to useless. Dropping BW and using a full normal sideboard gives you a lot of options against a broad field. this is something that most other storm decks lack in the format right now.

[Aleksandr]

Burning Wish lets you get this cards even pre-board. Most the BW decks don't use more than... IDK - six spells? And they are still useful.

The obvious Wishboard is something like this:

Doomsday
Tendrils
IGG (?)
IT (?)

Than you have some utility cards (depends on your colors) like Shattering Spree, Cleanfall, Deathmark. These serve both as a BW target as well as a normal sb material. Not that you must use them.

You can still put some number of "real" cards - not that the above ones are in any way unreal... - like Confidant, Grip, anything else... Crypt maybe? This deck is not the fastest in existance, so why lose to Ichorid? :really:

[rsaunder]

I had nothing but Top.

The pile still wins for 1U and 2 cards in hand, just replace the top with brainstorm. I'm just saying there was a better way to win, and you're disagreeing with me?

[Aleksandr]

The pile still wins for 1U and 2 cards in hand, just replace the top with brainstorm. I'm just saying there was a better way to win, and you're disagreeing with me?

I'm not sure what's the discussion about. I already wrote that I fucked up the pile. I can write it once again, if you're some kind of sadist that takes his pleasure from other people's bad luck. Than I wrote that I could pretty well won if I just Emrakuled for 16 and ToA for the remaining four. I can write it once again, 'cause my keyboard is fine and new.

Yeah, there are tons of other possible ways to win. What's the noise?

[Piceli89]

I'd like to know from those who are currently NOT running Burning Wish how their configuration looks like. I'm trying since the banning of Mystical Tutor to find a build that resembles as much as possible the old Fetchland Tendrils lists (i.e. running Chants) in a UBw/g shell having 4 Infernal Tutor as the main engine (mainly because I don't like to play Emrakul maindeck, a lot has been debated about this but I just want to keep a flexible structure without a potential dead topdeck or a Hellbent-clogger), 4 Chants, 3 Duresses, 4 Petals and 3 Cabal Rituals, and also 3 Doomsdays. The main advantage of not running BWish, has someone has already pointed out, is that you do not have to warp your sideboard to stretch all the possible solutions PLUS Wish targets into it. Some may argue that you till have access to something like 8-9 slots, but I found myself more comfortable with the maximum space avaiable, especially considering that now, without Mystical, we're forced to run more redundant anti-hate solutions that have to fall under precise categories (hatebear removal, artifacts and permanent-based removal, CB hate plus Emrakul package for Cb, Discard, control decks and randomness like Solidarity).
Something along the line of:

SB: 1 [WL] Doomsday
SB: 2 [AQ] Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 [10E] Deathmark
SB: 3 [US] Carpet of Flowers/Xantid Swarm
SB: 1 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [LRW] Shelldock Isle
SB: 1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
SB: 1 [TSP] Wipe Away

Lets you have multiple solutions to each of the aforementioned problematic cards without being forced to do sketchy sideboarding and card selection due to having half of the space.
For some it could be better to still pack BWish and I get its utility when it allows you to both grab a storm piece and a solution and that's prefectly true, I know it since I play TES; but I would like to try something along the line of what Doomsday ANT has been, which was, for me, the Storm Combo version I loved the most (and had the most success with).

***
The obvious flaw in this is that Doomsday, preboard, fully depends on a cantrip, because you can't go PTT DDay because of the lack of Emrakul. While I sometimes regret about it and i haven't completely made my mind on it, I'm willing to lose this option, since I easily realized how many times I lost due to drawing Emrakul as an essentially blank card, or discarding it to LED and basically negating my Igg-plan.
I found out Emrakul is essentially dead in these matchups:
-Tempo decks: New Horizons, Faeries, Merfolk, and such. Not only because of Wasteland, but also for Stifling the Hideway or the ativation, which may delay you one turn and cost the game.
-Other combo decks: sometimes cutting your life in a half and pass makes them only need for 4 spells and a Tendrils. You say Cloud of Faeries? If you would have the mana to use it, couldn't you be able to win via Tendrils on the spot? (Btw, against blue disruption, I don't like how Cloud of Faeries makes the piles vulnerable to Spell Snare, which has always been the great plus of DD-stacks).
Belcher? not really.
Ichorid? Emrakul is worthless past turn 2.
-Zoo decks: if you don't resolve it on turn1/2 and they drop a Nacatl, it's not great.
-LD black decks.
-Artifact-based. Blood Moon; Wasteland; Ensnaring Bridge.

Now, I could imagine it being still decent against all these (except those good saving Wasteland because of knowing the deck) if we could, say, go t1 Duress and t2 Doomsday for Shelldock on a regulr basis. But this happened really when there was a 1-mana instant U-tutor to grant the effectiveness-and the speed- of this kill. How much is Emrakul going to be effective when you manage to resolve a Dd through counters on turn 3 and the opponent has already set him with a Vial down, some Fish, or already has 2-3 mana out and a Nacatl + another random dork? I don't believe it's going to make it through a lot.
***

You also have to resolve a Chant to go for the classical loop kill, but that's pretty obvious.

The speed is still quite good since the inclusion of the whole shell of the old FT variant, granting a great game against aggro; but it still keeps the resilience against blue-based. It's true that I'm going to lose 99% of the games against Counterbalance and Trinisphere (I just run 1 Chain of Vapor maindeck and that's for Gaddock Teeg, constantly maindecked in the Zoo builds here). Still, i'm of the felling the including Emrakul and Shelldock would increase your dead cards in the opening to:
-Meditate;
-Tendrils;
-Ill Gotten;
-Emrakul;
-Shelldock being half-dead, if you use it after Bs to get rid of the chaff, you preclude yourself the Emrakul plan.
-a Bounce spell (because you still have to run it not to lose from randomness).

That's a total of 6, or better, 5 and a half. Of course some are workable depending on the rest of the hand, but those are generally the cards you don't want to see in the first 7.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why still Chants? Because I have the feeling those lists running 4 Duress and 3 Thoughtseize are weakening the Igg-Loop very much. While I see that some think that its only purpose is to give a fast win against aggro, it's also true that sometimes you will also lose to Zoo having double Bolt or Bolt+Helix in the graveyard and recuring it,or even to random crap like someone Plowsharing their guys. Or even to Fow+Stifle recurred from tempo decks, where the Emrakul plan is generally not recommended (ok, there's Pithing Needle, but honestly, I don't believe packing cards with the purpose of protecting a single aspect of the deck is worth the space and the slot.)
Why not 7 Chants? Because they're dead against too many archetypes, and usually I find out that the general metagame is not really only geared towards blue-based, but the post-MT ban has opened a wider range bringing back rogue decks and tiers 2 like Enchantress and such. Also, Duress gives you hand information, and etc etc. You know these things very well.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also, I know it may sound noobish, but I've toyed around with Lim Dul's Vault, and just didn't like it. Paying 2 to stack your deck at the expense of some life is a powerful effect, but it's just plain too slow (especially on the draw), eats Cursecatcher, Daze and Wasteland very easily, usually does not leave you mana to spin SDT, and losing lives in a deck that already relies half of the time on resolving a half-life-cut sorcery, paired with fetchlands and opponent's beats, and with a speed that's not comparable to what ANT had, gives the aggro and the fast aggro-control deck (Merfolks) quite a hand.

[Rune]

I think I would play something like this http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=36916 but with a few minor changes.

You're probably right about not playing Emrakul maindeck. It will most likely screw you over more times than it will be helpful in this metagame. Without the ability to tutor for Brainstorm, I think it's too risky to play that many potentially dead cards mainboard. In the past it was worth the 2 slots because there were a lot of Reanimator decks in addition to CB decks, but now there are only CB decks and a few Wasteland-less control decks where Emrakul will be good.

I had to switch my Chants for Thoughtseize when Reanimator became a good deck, but I will switch back to Chant now. Being able to ignore Stifle, Spell Snare etc. is really good.

[Piceli89]

I think I would play something like this http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=36916 but with a few minor changes.

You're probably right about not playing Emrakul maindeck. It will most likely screw you over more times than it will be helpful in this metagame. Without the ability to tutor for Brainstorm, I think it's too risky to play that many potentially dead cards mainboard. In the past it was worth the 2 slots because there were a lot of Reanimator decks in addition to CB decks, but now there are only CB decks and a few Wasteland-less control decks where Emrakul will be good.

I had to switch my Chants for Thoughtseize when Reanimator became a good deck, but I will switch back to Chant now. Being able to ignore Stifle, Spell Snare etc. is really good.

I'm glad you quoted my own list buddy, I didn't notice I finished on Deckcheck for the second time ! :D:D
Tell me what would you change. From that tournament, since I lost due to having Wipe Away and not Chain of Vapor maindeck to bounce a regular 2nd-turn Gaddock Teeg from Zoo,and also lots of times drawing multiple, un-necessary Doomdays, I did:

-1 Wipe Away, -1 Doomsday, +1 Chain of Vapor, +1 Infernal Tutor.

I also have some feeling I'd like to try Preordain in here to give the deck more "fluidity" (does that exist in English?), but I think it's not strictly neessary, given 11 cantrips, and I don't want to clog the deck's (already reduced) speed with 2-3 full turns of cantripping, which sometimes already happen.

[Rune]

Haha, nice. I guess I will playtest your list then, but with Chain in mainboard instead of Wipe.

[Aleksandr]

Picelli, I think you made very good points. I just played a few games on MWS and I didn't like the Emrakul plan very well... I gonna use it in the real, because he is such a massive threat in our metgame, but I wish to play a bit more straightforward (be it Wish build, or even more straightforward non-Wish deck) after quite some tournaments.

How does your decklist look like? Btw, I don't think that it is impossible to build a flexible list that both uses Wish and does not clog the sb with too much randomness. Namely when bounce is usualy used as a set of one-ofs, that get rid of hatebear, Moon, taxing effect, Iona, anything...

But I really understand that going 5c is a bit difficult and losing games to Waste/Sinkhole is bothersome. The Wish decklist could use zero Chants and go UBgr, but than there's that problem with IGG loops been much more vulnerable.

And, with the rise of Grim Monolith decks... is Serenity good sideboard material? I know that it eats Moxes (and interacts with Top...), but it can destroy any number of permanent hate, no matter what composition of Spheres, Chalices* and Cannonist the opponent landed...

* yeah, I know, CotV@2 kills the card.

EDIT: :smile: the decklist thingie

[emidln]

I'm currently playing this DDFT list:

4 Doomsday
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Lim-Dul's Vault
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Duress
3 Thoughtseize
1 Meditate
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Swamp

SB: 1 Tropical Island
SB: 1 Bayou
SB: 3 Xantid Swarm
SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
SB: 1 Shelldock Isle
SB: 1 Cloud of Faeries
SB: 1 Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 Deathmark
SB: 1 Wipe Away


I'm under the impression that if you need to ask for a UBx list instead of just crafting one that you probably aren't quick enough with the deck to run it in a large tournament like the GP. Instead, I would recommend that you play this TES list:

1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Ad Nauseam
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Duress
3 Thoughtseize
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Swamp

SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Deathmark
SB: 1 Pulverize
SB: 4 Doomsday
SB: 1 Shelldock Isle
SB: 1 Emrkaul, the Aeons Torn
SB: 2 Chain of Vapor

This is by far the most consistent fast combo deck in the format. DDFT is a mid-range combo at turns 2.5-3.5 whereas this TES list is a half a turn to a turn and a half faster. It's as disruptive playing the currently best protection package of 6+ Duress effects, has an excellent game against counterbalance thanks to Duress effects plus sb Doomsday plan, and can easily mow down things without Force of Will. In testing, New Horizons isn't actually that hard. That deck is trying to be a blue deck with way too many non-blue spells and it shows. Extra lands and extra duresses compared to the standard TES list make the matchup slightly easier.

I'm not entirely sure that I shouldn't be playing this 3c TES list instead of DDFT, which should give you an idea of what that means for someone who isn't able to quickly play spells like LDV and Doomsday. This is easy to play for someone who was familiar with playing ANT and the field should be ripe for it.

Edit: TES list is now 60 cards and has protection spells that I mentioned.

[troopatroop]

Yeah, but you completely exclude Duress and Orim's Chant in the TES list. Why does Fetchland Tendrils get to run 7 of them?

...nm your list is just short some cards.

[emidln]

I forgot to include 4 Duress, 3 Thoughtseize. Orim's Chant and Silence are worse than Thoughtseize in the deck. Wrecking your manabase and not allowing the deck to function as aggressively is just not that cool.

[Bahamuth]

So what is your reason to not run Wish?

[Piceli89]

I'm under the impression that if you need to ask for a UBx list instead of just crafting one that you probably aren't quick enough with the deck to run it in a large tournament like the GP. Instead, I would recommend that you play this TES list:



The point is that I actually chose not to run TES and to prefer DDT despites knowing that it's slower, and it's not that I avoided using Lim Dul's Vault because I'm "not quick enough to run it in a large tournament", seriously.
Basically, after having seen that the post-ban incarnations of Storm Combo were either going towards TES or DDFT, I had to make a choice: do I want to keep aggressivity and speed, or do I aim for flexibility and consistency, even at the expense of losing something else?

What I felt after having played -and tested- TES, both Bryant's and , in the last 2 weeks, yours, is that I'm always missing the centerpiece of consistency in Storm Combo decks: Sensei's Divining Top. I can't just stress enough how wonderful that card is in giving you a continuous stream of hand-crafting, as well as digging for your solutions post-side, and allowing to sculpt a Doomsday-hand which, even if it gets neutered by opposing disruption, can go off using LED just by switching for the Infernal Tutor on top to beat a wall of counters.
These are things TES just can't do: it has 8 excellent cantrips and i probably understand that SDT does not fit its aggressivity (i.e. killing your opponent as fast as possible afer a quick Duress), but sometimes it is just bound to run out of gas and to go to topdeck mode, hoping to draw a bomb or, if you need one, a protection, while your opponent is filling their hand and their board and you're hoping in luck. Also, the fact that it runs 20 pieces of mana acceleration is both a benefit and a disadvantage, because you will often open hands that contain 1-2 lands, 3-4 pieces and a tutor, and you will statistically draw even more. Now, that's a clear possibility to go off on the first turn if there's a LED and a Dark Ritual or similar cards (double petal, Rite of Flame, LED), but according to my own playstyle I just don't feel comfortable on running my head against a wall and test and throw a game away if opponent has Force of Will in hand.
To provide an example about the casuality factor in topdecking, I just lost some games against Merfolks in the last tournament because I hoped for like 5 turns to draw a Bomb while he was beaing me down and getting lots of counters. I brainstormed once, but did not get anything. On the final turn of life, I finally drew...Ponder. I stared at my hand: Seize, Rite o flame, Rite of flame, Dark Rit, Dark Rit, LED, Poder. Looking how Thoughtseize was useless because of being at 1 pv. I then tried to play my Rituals, but they got Pierced, Catchered, and Fowed, even if i tried to run around Daze effects by playing Flame before and then trying to pay the taxing effects with rituals in response. (I also hated how Rite of flame is a sorcery, but this is anothr story).

Instead, what about if you open a hand with 2 Lands, some mana, a bomb and a SDT? It will arguably take much more time, depending on what there's on the top, but it allows you to see 3 cards per time to craft your hand at best against blue-based, it allows to have a stream of gas that's useful against tempo and LD, as well as finding aggressively an Infernal Tutor to quickly seal the game against aggro. SDT is just so powerful that I always regreted not playing it. I you draw a fetchland, things get even better because you're allowed to shuffle and see more cards.

I also think the usual comparison made about the speed of 2 different Storm combo versions (as you said, TES is from a half turn to a turn and a half faster) is often flawed for a concrete purpose, as long as there's not an enormouse gap of time (say, 10 turns).
When you're in a tournament, you're not playing goldfish. You're against opponents that make you pressure or try to screw your game with active disruption. What really makes the difference in here? Being able to stand the disruption and being able to recover, find the right cards needed, stand lots of counters, as well as pull off a quick victory before Nacatls and Bolts finish you off.
I will admit that TES is far way superior against aggro decks (forgetting Gaddock Teeg g1) - of course, as long as you don't draw shitty hands. But against blue-based, and hand disruption (discard)? Chant helps in the first, SDT is resolutive in both, and Xantid/Carpet of Flowers from the sb really helps too. While TES suffers quick discard a lot because , as I was saying, it opens lots-of-mana hands with 1-2 bombs and, if it does not sandbag the key cards with Brainstor or Ponder,is bound to hope tryng to topdeck the missing piece. But this is not very easy given that it runs lots of bad cards like, say, 4 Chrome Moxes.

Also, I don't get how much space you devoted to the Doomsday+Emrakul package against CB. You are using 6 slots and sacrificing other important options.
How are you going to fight Merfolks without REB or other protection, if they are clever enough to not keep a only-1-Fow-hand that may get Duressed and make them lose? Against prison decks you're only relying on resolving (and finding) a BWish for Pulverize, since it's the only out I see if they drop a Chalice@1 on the table.


On a conclusion, I have my very personal belief that Sensei's Divining Top is excessively good to be passed up,and to be renounced to play an hyper-aggressive list. I know I may be wrong in this, and I'm fine in accepting it if some of these days, maybe after a tounrnment, I'll understand that brutal speed is more important than consistency as of now. But, as of now, too many times I've lost with TES due to drawing shit or to hope topdecking the dreamed card while the opponent was beating my face, or going all-in and getting the Fow on the teeth, or having a shitty Diminishing Returns, and I don't feel comfortable playing Russian Roulette even with Storm Combo.

[Dia_Bot]

@ Piceli89: exactly my thoughts on the subject.

[GreenOne]

@Piceli

Did you test my hybrid list with AN, Doomsday and 4 tops? You might like it. You get the flexibility that both doomsday and Top, and still quite a bit of speed.
Here it is:

// Lands
1 [7E] Island (2)
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [U] Scrubland
2 [U] Underground Sea
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [A] Tundra
1 [U] Volcanic Island
1 [B] Badlands

// Spells
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
2 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
3 [PS] Orim's Chant
2 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [R] Dark Ritual
1 [TE] Meditate
1 [WL] Doomsday
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [LRW] Ponder
2 [MR] Chrome Mox
2 [AL] Lim-Dul's Vault
4 [JU] Burning Wish
3 [FNM] Duress

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [WL] Doomsday
SB: 1 [FNM] Duress
SB: 1 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [VI] Helm of Awakening
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [10E] Deathmark
SB: 4x Pyroblasts/emrakul plan/bounce and CB removal/whatever fits you.

Obviously, you can also go with:
-3 chants
+3 Thoughtseize
+ a more stable manabase

[emidln]

So what is your reason to not run Wish?

Part of the same reason I don't want to run Ponder and will likely cut it: it makes my LDV less insane. What I mean by less insane is less of a guaranteed untap, win. The higher density of ritual effects and infernal tutors in addition to the common cards between Wish and non-Wish lists) makes it very easy to find a Brainstorm that will win me the game next turn. Burning Wish is worse at that because it doesn't as easily enable an IGG loop and it's off color even when I just want to kill with Doomsday.

Burning Wish certainly isn't bad, and it is more powerful than Infernal Tutor, but I believe that LDV can be best abused with a higher density of Cabal Rituals and Infernal Tutors.

Merfolk has exactly 4 relevant spells for that TES list. The deck has a ton of initial mana and ritual effects which will largely negate Daze/Cursecatcher and sideboard Spell Pierce (if they even get played anymore). You side in a Thoughtseize, side out a Ponder and call it a day. Thoughtseize/Duress is more than enough to force through your Ad Nauseam or Wish->ETW. REB/Pyroblast would have been worse than Xantid Swarm and I don't really want to splash for Xantid Swarm because (a) I want to actually consistently smash CB and (b) I want to have cheap bounce to deal with 2cc hate from Zoo and Goblins.

Counterbalance is the most important matchup a storm combo deck will face outside of aggro. Beating Counterbalance and Zoo makes winning a tournament a lot easier. As said before, your tempo matchup isn't all that bad. The 8 Duress over Chant/Silence/Pyroblast/Xantid Swarm lets the deck play more aggressively with its mana (calculated risks like Duress turn 1 and combo turn 2 are possible, as well as Rit, Duress, combo with only 2-3 initial mana sources) and simultaneously punish mulligans and bad draws by its opponents resulting in free wins.

As far as Chant be better than Thoughtseize, the only time I'd want Chant over Thoughtseize is if I'm playing against Spell Snare. The two dominant tempo decks don't play Spell Snare. Their "soft" counters are either irrelevant to my combo attempt due to Ad Nauseam drawing me more disruption or the same effectiveness against Chant or Thoughtseize because they are taxing effects and will either stop me from comboing that turn or not without regard to what kind of protection I'm using. Chant being off color is far more relevant than Spell Snare + Force of Will decks being common from anything outside of glacially slow stuff like NO Bant, Thopters, or Landstill. (Tempo Thresh exists I guess, but it's on a down turn due to a sketchy matchup against its white mirror that has no boltable creatures).

Speed is a very important factor in the deck as you'll often find that it's extremely hard to use LDV effectively in the face of Zoo. Worse, LDV into Doomsday or IGG has a decent chance of leaving you conspicuously in burn range for a Zoo player who stopped spending mana on dudes after turn 2 or 3. We're lucky right now that some Zoo lists are play extra paths/stps for the mirror since the matchup would be much more difficult and possibly require Burning Wish and Ponder to make pass the turn piles more viable if this ever changes.

Speed puts enormous pressure on an opposing blue deck and makes them mull harder into disruption. This in turn makes our discard-based disruption even more effective. This can also give us more time to setup as mulligans into protection likely won't be able to put any pressure on us as well without extremely good draws.

Speed is important against randomness. TES will likely kill you on turn 2 unless you can stop it from doing so. Force of Will and Thoughtseize are good ways of probably not losing before you've had a third turn, although if you only have one protection, TES can still kill a fair amount of time with a Duress effect on turn 1-2 into AdN or ETW. Just killing them stops jank from developing strange board positions that aren't easily solvable.

Prison decks are terrible in Legacy. If I thought I had even a remote chance of playing against one in every tournament I might take more steps with a sideboard for it, but as is, I'll bank on not being in the loser's bracket or winning the die roll in the unlikely event I find myself matched up against a prison deck.

[Tokobotenkai]

Guys regarding stax (emidln you know my meta), if stax was a considerable amount in the meta would a S&T list warrant it's inclusion in the SB?

[oxeimon]

emidln - your current DDFT list at the top of this page is missing 2 cards in the maindeck.

[Bahamuth]

Isn't Infernal Tutor terrible in the blue matchup for this deck? You can't IGG them, and IT --> DD costs 8 mana.

How have the Carpets been? Do you board them in against Merfolk, or anything else than tempo?

The 2 missing cards are lands.

[emidln]

I side out Cabal Rit for Carpet in most blue matchups. They're not spectacular, but they do the job.

Infernal Tutor->DD is serviceable, but it's really there to make it easy to race aggro. That list is missing 2 lands.

[DarthVicious]

Part of the same reason I don't want to run Ponder and will likely cut it: it makes my LDV less insane. What I mean by less insane is less of a guaranteed untap, win. The higher density of ritual effects and infernal tutors in addition to the common cards between Wish and non-Wish lists) makes it very easy to find a Brainstorm that will win me the game next turn. Burning Wish is worse at that because it doesn't as easily enable an IGG loop and it's off color even when I just want to kill with Doomsday.

Burning Wish certainly isn't bad, and it is more powerful than Infernal Tutor, but I believe that LDV can be best abused with a higher density of Cabal Rituals and Infernal Tutors.

So your list is more focused on trying to use LDV as a storm engine. At least that's the impression I'm under. I'm running 3, and it can very well be abused that way. I more or less use it as a mass tutor, paying BUU + X life to change 3 cards in my hand to whatever I want in my deck. It doesn't always draw me into a win, but LDV + draw spell is very very good.

[oxeimon]

So I went 6-3 day one at columbus and didn't make day 2, finishing overall at 259, but as my first tournament with over 16 people, I'm quite satisfied with my performance. (I live in Hanover, NH, and I don't think there's a single competitive legacy player in the area). In fact, I've probably played in about 9 DCI sanctioned events over all, 2 standard FNM's about 6 years ago, around 6 draft events over the last year, and 1 legacy event that I organized myself.

I started out with Emidln's UB list, but decided at 4am the night before that those burning wish piles are just too sexy to pass up (without them I often find myself 1 or 2 storm short of lethal), so I decided to splash for red, with a minimal toolbox sideboard and some green for carpet of flowers/xantid swarm, both of which are just sick when they hit.

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
1 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [B] Underground Sea
1 [B] Badlands
1 [B] Volcanic Island
1 [B] Tropical Island
1 [UNH] Swamp
1 [UNH] Island

// Spells
4 [JU] Burning Wish
2 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
3 [WL] Doomsday
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
4 [FNM] Duress
1 [TE] Meditate
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
2 [M10] Ponder
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
1 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
2 [LRW] Thoughtseize
2 [AL] Lim-Dul's Vault
4 [B] Dark Ritual
1 [ON] Chain of Vapor
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [WL] Doomsday
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [CS] Deathmark
SB: 1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
SB: 1 [UL] Cloud of Faeries
SB: 1 [LRW] Shelldock Isle
SB: 1 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 3 [SC] Xantid Swarm
SB: 1 [B] Bayou
SB: 2 [US] Carpet of Flowers


I'm not good enough at taking notes to write a real tournament report, but here goes -

Round 1 - I get paired up in a tournament with 1300 people against one of my 2 teammates (they live in PA, but very kindly gave me a ride and helped me with some testing the night before). It's Matthew Bevenour playing merfolk. I lose the die roll.

G1 - I forget what happened, but I just lose.

Sideboard: -1 IGG, -1 Chain of Vapor, -1 Cabal Ritual, -1 Lotus Petal, -2 Lim Dul's Vault, +2 Carpet of Flowers, +3 Xantid Swarm, +1 Bayou.

G2 - Some reejerey antics lets him swing for 12 on turn 4, putting me at 3. Next turn I duress, doomsday into an SDT/meditate pile and win with 1 life remaining.

G3 - Again I'm at 3, I duressed him a few times already so he has no countermagic, but I can't seem to draw any gas. I attempt to meditate in resp saccing LEDs, but hit 3 lands and a duress ftl.

0-1
1-2


Round 2 - Jon Keilholz with Charbelcher, I lose the die roll.

G1 - I keep a good hand with some accel, wish, top, duress, but no black source. He goes bayou, pass. I draw, play tropical island -> SDT, pass. The guy next to him goes "I wonder what he's playing". Ironic, huh. Next turn, he goes off, playing charbelcher and activating with LED. Taiga was his 13th card.

Sideboard: no change.

G2 - I keep a hand with LED, LED, SDT, IT, Sea, Fetch, Fetch, pretty much the nuts. I play Sea -> SDT, pass. He goes land grant, bayou, mox imprinting wish, tinder wall, lotus petal, lotus petal, LED, and plays his other wish, but forgets to activate LED before asking "ok?" and scoops. Guess it wouldn't have mattered since empty the warrens doesn't kill me instantly anyway.

G3 - So thus far, he still thinks I'm on some version of countertop, though my G2 sea probably confused him a bit. I keep a hand of Petal, Duress, Duress, IT, Doomsday, 2 Lands. He's now on the play, and plays a T1 xantid swarm (yay). I draw, duress his wish, and pass. He attacks and passes. I drop another land, duress seeing no business, so I take his seething song and pass. This goes on for another few turns, with me duressing him a third time to make sure he can't go off. I end up drawing another brainstorm and IT, IT-ing twice for lotus petals (3 petals in hand now), and on the 6th turn I go off with 4 lands, dropping 3 petals, doomsday, brainstorm into meditate, etc. Meanwhile he had dropped 2 more Xantid Swarms that had been trying their best to bug me as I sculpt.

1-1
3-3


Round 3 - David Bonelli with GW Survival

G1 - I duress his survival, thoughtseize something else, and won on T4-ish.

Sideboard: -1 Lim Dul's Vault, -1 Tropical Island, -1 IT, -1 Ponder, +1 Emrakul, +1 Shelldock Isle, +1 Cloud of Faeries, +1 Wipe Away.

G2 - He plays land -> birds, go. I play land, thoughtseize, seeing canonist + survival. I take the canonist, hoping he's only got one. T2 he plays land, survival, and end of my turn discarding pridemage -> squee. I wince. T3 he discards squee for canonist, and plays it. I wince. Next turn I wish for deathmark, deathmark it, do some topping, pass. End of my turn he discards survivals for emrakul, and during his turn survivals emrakul for his once defunct canonists, and play them again. Eventually he gets another canonist and 2 teegs in play and I scoop.

G3 - I keep a hand of Rit, DD, BS, SDT, Thoughtseize, 2 lands. I play land -> SDT. He draws, land, go. I upkeep top, drawing myself a land with a petal coming up, I thoughtseize him seeing 1 survival as the only relevant card, and make him discard it. Next turn apparently he topdecked another survival and played it. My T3, I play land, and think about doing a double cantrip pile, and after about 30 seconds he gets impatient and tells me to make a move. Apparently a judge hears this and starts watching the game. Eventually I decide that an emrakul pile is much cooler, so I dark rit into doomsday, SDT into shelldock isle, brainstorm into cloud of faeries, play petal, play shelldock, crack petal + land for cloud of faeries uptapping shelldock and a sea. When I make the motions to activate shelldock, the other guy goes "wait, that's your second land for the turn". My face pales as I realize that he was right, but the judge had been watching the entire sequence of events, gave me a warning for a game rules violation, but ruled that too much had happened since the violation that it was impossible to reverse the game state to before the violation, and asked us to play on. So I end up winning that game, but not without inadvertently cheating :-\.

2-1
5-4


Round 4 - Calosso Fuentes with Countertop Goyf. I lose the roll.

G1 - I can't find protection in time before he drops counterbalance + top with fow in hand. Lose.

Sideboard: -1 IT, -1 Trop, -2C Petal, -1 Ponder, -1 C.Rit, -2 Thoughtseize, -1 IGG, -1 LED, +3 Xantid, +2 Carpet, +1 Bayou, +1 Wipe Away, +1 Emrakul, +1 Shelldock, +1 Cloud of Faeries.

G2 - I Turn 1 duress, seeing daze + force as the only relevant cards. I take force. He plays land -> SDT, go. Turn 2 I play land, rit -> doomsday, he brainstorms and says ok. Next turn I draw and play shelldock, pass. He tops, can't find an answer, and scoops.

G3 - I don't remember precisely how this went, but my T1 duress gets dazed, T2 burning wish gets dazed, and while I'm up 3 lands to 1 on my T3, I can't find doomsday fast enough before he lands countertop with a krosan grip on top. I have wipe away, but by the time I'm ready to use it and go off, he had another top AND another counterbalance on the board >.<

2-2
6-6


Round 5 - Joshua Dodson with Aeon Bridge. I win the roll.

G1 - Turn 1 duress his SnT, T2 I play land, top, petal, LED, LED, IT cracking LED's for BBBUUU, play doomsday, top into meditate, win.

Sideboard: -1 Trop, -1 C.Rit, -1 Lotus Petal, +1 Bayou, +2 Carpet.

G2 - I win again, this time vs an SnT'd emrakul on the board :-D


3-2
8-6


Round 6 - Cedric Phillips with Aluren. His name sounded a little familiar, but it wasn't until after the game that I found out that he writes for starcitygames. I lose the roll.

G1 - I keep a hand of DD, Duress, LED, LED, SDT, 2 Lands. He plays a T1 trop -> Birds. I go land -> Duress, seeing nothing but lands and a brainstorm. I take the brainstorm, pass. He drops another land, passes. I drop a land, SDT, activate to find a second DD in top 3, pass. He drops land, go. My T3 I drop a land, LED x2, DD, which somehow meets a FoW pitching brainstorm. I think okay, I've got another DD coming up, so that's not really a problem, so I pass. Next turn I play DD again, which resolves, but then for a moment I panic, as without the storm from the two LED's, I wouldn't be able to achieve lethal storm with the usual pile. So I think for about half a minute, at which point he calls a judge to watch for slow play. I explain that this is doomsday and by the end of this turn I will either concede or win. Nonetheless after about a minute the judge gives me a slow play warning, which I just ignore and continue thinking. Eventually I finalize on the pile Meditate, LED, LED, Chain of Vapor, Burning Wish. I crack both LEDs for UUUUUU, spin top into meditate, playing meditate. Right now I've got UUU in pool, LED, LED, SDT, Chain in hand, and 3 tapped lands in play. I drop LED, LED, SDT with UU left in pool (currently 5 storm). I play chain targetting LED, saccing 2 lands to bounce SDT and the other LED as well, replaying them all for now 9 storm with my pool empty. I crack LED's for BBBRRR, top into wish, wish into tendrils for 11 storm.

Sideboard: -1 Trop, -1 Island, -1 Cabal Rit, -1 Lotus Petal, -1 IGG, -1 IT, +2 Carpet, +1 Bayou, +1 Emrakul, +1 CoF, +1 Shelldock Isle.


G2 - After G1 I saw literally nothing but brainstorm, FoW, and Birds. I guess looking back seeing the havenwood battlegrounds in his hands should have tipped me off that he was playing Aluren, but oh well, I'd never seen an aluren decklist or tested against it before. Turn 1 he drops battleground. I go Turn 1 dark ritual -> doomsday, it resolves, I go for emrakul pile. Next turn he plays land, go; I play shelldock, go; next turn he plays land, aluren, and combos off with cavern harpy and coiling oracle, eventually finding strix for the win. Bleh.

G3 - I duress him twice, once T1 and again T3, leaving him with nothing but 2 lands in hand. Next turn I win with a standard meditate pile.

4-2
10-7


Round 7 - Joel Ferris with Bant Tempo. I'm still in the running for Day 2, but I have to win my next 3 rounds. I win the roll.

G1 - I get paired up against this friendly looking guy with a red shirt and curly hair who asks me if I use the source and who I am on it. I tell him, and he tells me he's mossivo, and from that I immediately deduce that he's playing bant tempo. He does not seem pleased, but after a T1 hierarch into a T2 vendilion clique at the end of my draw step taking my only engine piece, followed by a pridemage on his next turn, I was dead in 4 turns with a double exalted clique with countermagic backup.

Sideboard: -1 Swamp, -1 Petal, -1 Lim Dul's Vault, -1 C.Rit, -2 Thoughtseize, +2 Carpet, +1 Bayou, +3 Xantid


G2 - I forget the beginning of the game, but sometime around T3, he had nothing but 2 lands + hierarch + goyf on the table, whereas I had 3 lands, an SDT on the table, and an LED, Petal, and Doomsday in hand. I was at 18ish from fetches. The turn before I had duressed him, ripping out a FoW leaving Swordsx2, RWM, Daze, goyf. He played a heath as his unknown card, so I had perfect information going into this turn. I knew the petal made me daze-proof, he was at 20, and playing out my hand into the standard meditate pile with wish would let me storm out for exactly 20 life. So I went ahead, and he inspected literally every move, and at the very end he sworded his own goyf in response to my tendrils. Whoops. To this day I can't believe I missed that interaction. I could have easily gone for a emrakul pass the turn pile, which would have given him 1 turn to find a wasteland before emrakul can attack. I'm now 4-3, but one of my teammates is still X-2, so I decide to continue playing.


4-3
10-9


Round 8 - Samuel Stoddard with Zoo. I lose the roll.

G1 - I turn 1 SDT, turn 2 double dark rit into doomsday with a Sea untapped, top into meditate etc.

G2 - Couldn't goldfish in time.

G3 - IGG appears in my opening hand, I infernal tutor for a second LED, win on T4 with 5 life remaining.


5-3
12-10


Round 9 - Matthew Cline with Bant Survival, though I didn't see a single survival in all 3 games. I lose the roll again.

G1 - Lose to double goyf beats, couldn't go off in time.

Sideboard: In goes Emrakul Pile + Xantid/Carpet package + Wipeaway. Take out the usual.

G2 - Duress his force, wish + deathmark 1 teeg, and win through a second teeg via a meditate pile with chain of vapor as 4th card.

G3 - I win with IGG on T4 at around 3-4 life ish with two goyfs on table. His only blue cards in hand + graveyard is 1 daze + 1 force. I duressed his force earlier, so I play two LED's, dark rit into IGG, returning LED, duress, tutor, duress his daze, making his FoW useless, replay LED, tutor for wish, wish for tendrils for exactly 18 life (he was at 18).

Final Record:
6-3 in matches
14-11 in games.


After standings were up, I find myself at EXACTLY #128, though my exuberation was put to an end when a teammate noted that it was just for my pod.

Notes -
1. Lim Dul's Vault is pretty sub-par against decks that can put on a relatively fast clock. It's really good with a brainstorm or meditate in hand, but usually it's just a 2cmc mystical tutor that costs life.

2. Carpet of Flowers is AMAZING vs blue. I've never been disappointed to draw one. Against blue it's usually at least a lotus petal the turn it hits the table, and after that a dark ritual or better every turn after that.

3. With one notable exception, for the last 5 games or so I actually felt really good about how I played. At the very least, I learned a ton about how to play the deck. Looking back, I was lucky not to encounter any heavy artifact hate, and emrakul is almost good enough to include in the maindeck. I might just stick in emrakul permanently, opening up some room on the sb for a pulverize or shattering sprees. Reverent silence might also be worth it.

4. It cost me around $200 to attend the tournament and play in a couple grinders, and while I didn't win anything, the experience itself of being at a GP was incredible. My heart was pounding the entire day. By the end, I was exhausted, and yet still couldn't stop thinking about my deck and how to tweak it. Some of the people are douches, but the spirit of competition there is just unparalleled.

[Aleksandr]

// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
...
1 [B] Tropical Island




Wouldn't be a few Scalding Tarns better, as they can find the Tropical Island? Otoh they cannot find the Bayou... :-/

[oxeimon]

oh, yeah I actually made a last minute change to replace the 4 mires with 1 mire, 1 tarn, 1 catacombs, 1 rainforest.

[oarsman]

I played the deck at GP Columbus also, so I thought I would chime in with my thoughts. I played mostly the same deck as oxeimon except I had
+ emrakul package
+ 1 cabal ritual
-1 wish
-2 LDV
-1 chain of vapor

I went 5-0 to win a trial the day before, and then 3-3 in the GP, losing in the last round to miss day two. I was nervous playing the deck due to inexperience and fear that I would screw up. As matches went by (and after punting one) I began to calm down and play better and faster. If I had the play experience at the start that I have now, I believe I would have made it through.

Observations:
I played three basic land and was very thankful for it. I believe only two underground seas are necessary.
Decks that do not have blue are in trouble against you, even if they have hate cards.
I was afraid that not having a bounce spell would cost me, but it did not.
New Horizons is not impossible like I thought it would be, although it isn't easy.
The green sideboard cards are both amazing, and I was glad that I played three of each.
I would not cut the emrakul package, but I would consider reworking the deck to not include wish.
Twice, against decks with counters but presumably no wasteland, I played turn 1 ritual doomsday for emrakul, and it won the game. One of those times, the opponent revealed later that he had a force of will, but was waiting to counter the combo.
The only time I feel like I can't win is facing down a resolved counterbalance.
Other storm decks with chants are really aggravating.
If I had another big legacy event coming up soon, I would play the same deck (probably still with wishes).

[Jeff Kruchkow]

The only time I feel like I can't win is facing down a resolved counterbalance.

Shelldock plan really shines here since you can get a dday through CB with just 3 lands. Also, packing the discard package rather than chants is HUGE in the CB matchup.

[DarthVicious]

I already cut red from the deck. As nice as Burning Wish was, I was completely reliant on duals, especially with Pulverize. Having room for some basics will be nice. I'll still have the Emrakul plan in the board. For protection I have Duress, Thoughtseize, and Daze MD.

[sillysam71]

Myself and two others also played DDFT at the GP. Only one of us made day 2, sadly, and it wasn't me. We all ran the same maindeck, but the sides might have varied slightly. Here it is:

4 Doomsday
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Meditate
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Duress
4 Orim's Chant
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
3 Cabal Ritual
3 Infernal Tutor
1 Brainfreeze
1 Helm of Awakening
1 Chain of Vapor

3 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Tundra
4 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
1 Flooded Strand
2 Swamp
1 Island

First of all, thank you emidln and cheeseburger for the 12 pages of Doomsday piles and notes. I studied these for over 10 hours at work the week of and wouldn't have been able to play the deck without them.

Second, Orim's chant is rediculous. It allows you to go off through spell snare, stifle, and mindbreak trap and also allows Ill Gotten Gains to be used in a lot of tough situations. It also hoses other combo decks mid-combo, especially belcher. I would run it again for sure.

I tested without white and using Burning Wish/Lim Dul's Vault/ Thoughtseize and found it to be really clunky. I ended up just liking chant better. I also thought Lim Dul's was really sub par. It really is an expensive Mystical that makes you lose life and doesn't cantrip. I really like Burning Wish, but I couldn't make room and never really found myself needing to wish for something.

The brainfreeze/Helm of Awakening is the alternate combo, I never actually used it, but it gets around Teeg and Meddling Mage naming Tendrils. It also beats random life gain decks and decks with canonist out since you generate storm with tops and brainfreeze is the only colored card. (Granted that it's a Doomsday, pass the turn pile.)

As for matchups:

Round 1: UBG Landstill
I really hate this matchup. I can never get ahead and with 12 counters and Standstill maindeck, it's very hard to go off.
I might have won one game, I don't remember, but I lost the match.
0-1

Round 2: Reanimator
Game 1 was kinda long, I duressed away some combo pieces and eventually went off with chant into IGG.
Game 2 I brought in Leylines and started with one in play. He show and tells it that betrays. I try to go off with Ad Nauseam and forget that my deck is now full of 4 drops. I lose.
Game 3 I tear apart his combo and win on turns.
1-1

Round 3: UBG Faeries
He played next to me in round 2, so I knew his deck, but he didn't know mine.
I remember that he beat me down one game, but I comboed the other two and won. Chant won it for me, he always had a Stifle.
2-1

Round 3: MonoR Goblins
Game 1 he smashes my face for a turn 3 win. He doesn't know what I'm playing.
Game 2 I Doomsday for the win on my turn 3 while he had damage on board.
Game 3 was interesting to say the least. We both mull to 4. He plays lackey, go. I land, go. He swings with lackey, no reveal. Next turn, we swings with lackey and reveals lackey. lol He hits me for 2 a turn with no reveals for quite awhile. I'm trying to build up to lethal storm and eventually I decide to try something really stupid and risky, but it might pay off. I infernal for a second Doomsday, and cast it dropping me to 4 life, with top in play. I have some rituals, LEDs and 2nd DD in hand. I think I got Med, LED, LED, Petal, Tendrils or something like that. I pass the turn(not enough mana to go off) he drops me to 2and drops some irrelevant goblin with lackey. I draw, play everything except DD, Med into the rest of my pile cracking my LED's. Play all Rits and LED's, cast DD breaking LED's and going to 1, getting Med, Rit, Rit, Tendrils, and useless card. Spin top and win. I've never tested a double DD pile before, but I sure was glad that it worked.
3-1

Round 4: Grim Monolith/ Power Artifact
Game 1 I think I chain of vapored his monolith just so i didn't have to discard. Turns out that he would've won if I wouldn't have done that, I went off next turn.
Game 2 he has monolith and transmutes for power artifact.He now has 5 cards in hand. I play duress, FoW, pitching something random. Chant, Fow pitching the Power artifact. He only has one card in hand. I go off with Ad Nauseam, get lethal storm and play tendrils...Mindbreak Trap. WTF are the odds! I was a little salty. He got his combo back together before i did.
Game 3 he has counters for my stuff and goes off relatively quick. Plays emrakul and I scoop.
3-2

Round 5: Countertop Horizons
Game 1 Daze, Daze, Daze, FoW, FoW, FoW, FoW. I lost.
Game 2 At one point I duress him and see FoW, Daze, Spell Pierce, and Counterbalance with a top in play. I take FoW, which I still believe was the right call. He plays Counterbalance, leaving no blue open. I play Duress, he puts his top on top to counter it. I end up casting Doomsday with 5 more mana available, he dazes, i go to 4 mana. I have the win on board. I was gonna grab Med, Petal, LED, LED, Tendrils. Oh wait, I can't replay my top to draw my Tendrils, can I? Nope, thanks to CB. Try the pile Med, Pet, Cabal, Infernal, Tendrils. I'm not short by one mana to cast the tendrils. If it weren't for the Daze, I would have played through Counterbalance like a pro...but he had Daze, so I lost.
3-3
Drop

I really liked the deck, it was just impossible to play when the opponent had infinite counters. I probably would have done better if I had more practice, also. I might sideboard the Helm/Brainfreeze next time, though since I didn't use it. Maybe add two chrome mox to the main.

[DarthVicious]

First of all, thank you emidln and cheeseburger for the 12 pages of Doomsday piles and notes. I studied these for over 10 hours at work the week of and wouldn't have been able to play the deck without them.

I don't suppose you (or emidln, or cheeseburger) could PM me a link to those 12 pages? I have gocho's spreadsheet, but beyond that I'm forced into coming up with piles myself on the spot, and it's significantly more difficult to come up with a pile when you're under pressure. Meditate piles and Ideas Unbound piles are becoming very standard for me to use, but when the situation calls for something else I end up taking too much time.

I've been testing several ideas as far as draw spells and tutors. My lastest incarnation includes Personal Tutor and Ideas Unbound piles. BU with 4 Daze and 7 Discard spells. LDV can give me two or three of the cards I'm looking for, but it still costs two mana and a handful of life to get there. After losing two-four games from manascrew/wasteland I decided to cut red, as BW was the only thing I splashed red for in the main, with Pyroblast in the side and Pulverize, Pyroclasm, and Grapeshot as wish targets. Pyroblast was nice, but not worth losing to your own land. Wish also forced me to play the 'wait a turn' game before I could go off, and anyone who plays combo knows that when you need to go off, you need to go off.

I believe green offers better options for protection than white, but both require you to stretch your manabase farther than you'd like to go, and can't offer much else. Red brings BW, but the protection spells aren't as good. Blue and Black are pretty much required. Discard and counterspells seem good enough to me. I may include Forces, I have 17 blue cards in my deck, including those Dazes.

[sillysam71]

Emidln has a link on the bottom of his posts called "Verbose Doomsday Piles." That's where I learned most of what I know about Doomsday Piles.

[DarthVicious]

Emidln has a link on the bottom of his posts called "Verbose Doomsday Piles." That's where I learned most of what I know about Doomsday Piles.

I've read that document about a hundred times. I also have a printout of that spreadsheet, it's golden. I just keep thinking there's some archive of piles that is bigger than what I have.

I also realize that the piles are flexible based on the situation, such as having one extra mana against Teeg so you can throw Slaughter Pact into your Meditate pile and not have to worry about initial mana for rituals. I just want as many ideas for piles as I can get my hands on.

[Bahamuth]

I highly doubt cutting Wish for colour reasons is a good idea. Try cutting in the amount of basics you run first. If you don't run Wish, you will be forced to run IT and both IGG and ToA mainboard. I personally hate IT --> DD because that is always going to cost you 8 mana and a cantrip to win, which is pretty bad and will make you wonder why you aren't running an AdN mainboard. The list I'd currently run has neither IGG nor ToA in the mainboard. I know emidln doesn't agree with the IGG, but I love playing a cleaned up mainboard like that. I'm currently unsure as to wether I should be playing Emrakul mainboard, and if I am, if I should play CoF mainboard.

[emidln]

The resource you're looking for is the Doomsday Piles thread on Storm Boards. In addition to stuff that eventually makes it into Doomsday Piles documents, recent developments (mostly thanks to lejay and cheeseburger) include Carpet of Flowers/Chain of Vapor piles to get double use out of an in play Carpet, Ideas Unbound as a replacement for Meditate (it's as good or better in almost all common situations), and a laundry list of misc piles. There is discussion about piles, scenarios, and some more stuff that's good to know as a Doomsday player.

Part of the reason we keep this stuff on storm boards is to prevent every other post from becoming "that won't work because (gives reason that's wrong)" or "I don't see it" or "8 storm (counting from doomsday on) isn't lethal therefore this sux". The source pretty good for generic discussion on archetype, but has been, in my experience, very poor when looking to discuss intricacies of a deck.

If piles under pressure are hard, practice more. There is a puzzles/scenarios forum on storm boards that has scenarios that might help you develop in this area.

[DarthVicious]

The resource you're looking for is the Doomsday Piles thread on Storm Boards. In addition to stuff that eventually makes it into Doomsday Piles documents, recent developments (mostly thanks to lejay and cheeseburger) include Carpet of Flowers/Chain of Vapor piles to get double use out of an in play Carpet, Ideas Unbound as a replacement for Meditate (it's as good or better in almost all common situations), and a laundry list of misc piles. There is discussion about piles, scenarios, and some more stuff that's good to know as a Doomsday player.

Part of the reason we keep this stuff on storm boards is to prevent every other post from becoming "that won't work because (gives reason that's wrong)" or "I don't see it" or "8 storm (counting from doomsday on) isn't lethal therefore this sux". The source pretty good for generic discussion on archetype, but has been, in my experience, very poor when looking to discuss intricacies of a deck.

If piles under pressure are hard, practice more. There is a puzzles/scenarios forum on storm boards that has scenarios that might help you develop in this area.

I'm noticing Ideas Unbound being equivalent/superior to Meditate and I'm running it main now. I also know I need to practice.

@Bahamuth - I liked BW better in AdN, when my decks total mana cost was like 36 due to no IGG or ToA main, with 1 Nauseam MD.
In DD I'm almost always using it to find DD, otherwise it sits in my hand. It's nice to have for the piles though. Personal Tutor has been accomplishing the same job. I can also PT for IU or discard, which may lead me to include Cabals again. Sometimes a lack of mana is an issue.

[kiwi]

I want to play a standart list of doomsday deck, and Im new with this deck :), I want to play the deck with tipic configuration 4 orim chants + 2 silence, and I want to play the combo of emrakul + Shelldock Island... What cards do you put out for sideboarding Xatind Swam + 1 Tropical Island or Krosan Grips, or REverent Silence ?

Help, please I dont know what are the best cards for putting out when I have to sideboard.

Thank you.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

On monday I will be unveiling my newest list after the SCG 10K tournament in Denver this weekend. It's got some pretty sweet tech, but I don't care to share it until after it's debut. It's UBwg and has been pwning all aggro and ichorid I have tested against, has been going 40/60 against Dragon Stompy preboard, but with a last minute change I made, it's about 50/50 preboard right now and 65/35 post board. There's no CB where I live but in my past testing against blue, I feel really good about the list.

Hopefully it does well.

-AB

[Rune]

Sounds interesting. Don't think any of the lists I have been playing can realistically beat Dragon Stompy, unless I get the nuts :I

[Piceli89]

Sounds interesting. Don't think any of the lists I have been playing can realistically beat Dragon Stompy, unless I get the nuts :I

To be honest, if you get the possibility to fetch for basics and/or land a lotus petal, post board things aren't looking grim for us at all. I play 3 Hurkyl's Recall which are basically an autowin if found at the right point. ( I know that 3 may sound too much, but my meta is infested with artifact decks.)
However, I have the feeling I could win even with 2, since there are lots of options avaiable in UBwg lists (usually the default 3 Krosan Grip, 1 Echoing Truth, and even 1 Chain of Vapor). You could also side in the Emrakul package, the key point is to take off all the Duresses and Chants in order to avoid dead topdecks and lower Cotv@1's influence.
Remember you also have SDT which is by a mile the strongest play you could make early, it filters nicely the dead draws (cards going under Chalices) and finds your bouncers.


Looking forward for this "tech", though. I bet it is not anything new. At maximum, it can be a Rain of Filth, a Predict. Everything else techy only strictly relates with Doomsday (see Shared Fate and Solitary Confinement) and thus, it suboptimal in those builds that can (and should) play both the Igg loop and the Doomsday part excellently (i.e., 4+ chants, 3 cabals, 4 petals, 3-4 IT and 3-4 DD).

[Piceli89]

On monday I will be unveiling my newest list after the SCG 10K tournament in Denver this weekend. It's got some pretty sweet tech, but I don't care to share it until after it's debut. It's UBwg and has been pwning all aggro and ichorid I have tested against, has been going 40/60 against Dragon Stompy preboard, but with a last minute change I made, it's about 50/50 preboard right now and 65/35 post board. There's no CB where I live but in my past testing against blue, I feel really good about the list.

Hopefully it does well.

-AB

So in the end, which was this winning tech?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Well, I was anticipating a lot of blue, but as it turns out there were only a couple merfolk lists and a few CB lists. Ichorid was heavy also, so I had to change my list.

My "tech" was running 3 Enlightened tutors, an md Serenity, 1 Carpet of Flowers, and a couple cunning wishes. They all served me well in playtesting. However, I changed my list after the Saturday night Legacy challenge, and while I still ran the E. Tutors (Swapped out green for 3 Burning Wishes to speed up a touch), my list wasn't tested and I flopped. Also, I lost my ghostly prison right before handing in my list, so I threw in an IGG real quick in the board. That was fail against Ichorid and Goblins. I did much good, but more wrong.

Being able to tutor for LED is sick. Way better than being able to tutor for D/C Rit. I did it turn one and won turn 2 three times sunday.

In the challenge friday, I went Turn one Petal, Fetch, Enlightened Tutor, BS, Petal, D. Rit, LED, LED, IT, IGG, LED, LED, IT, Tendrils. I thought that was pretty sick.

You can grab Carpet of Flowers also, and I ran 3 top which is amazing in any kind of control matchup (plus I run 2 DDay in teh md and 1 in the sb, no Ad Nauseam unless playing cunning wishes) and I can tutor for those, along with the Serenity, and then EE also and even Ensnaring Bridge against a turn 1/2 'Nought or a fast Prog. Then of course there's Prison you can grab against Goblins/Merfolk/Ichorid/Zoo. I've tested Planar Collapse against aggro and unless they are stupid enough to over extend (which they do once in a while in order to beat the combo) it's kinda fail. And it only works once.

Anyway, I am very pleased with it and I hope your testing with it agrees. I'm interested in hearing which tutor targets work best for you guys.

[.cheeseburger]

https://docs.google.com/document/edit?id=1onAp8XmBLHTUP71xw1w_z0_LAiTo5EWJR4YQmAMgTkY&hl=en

It is still in work, but some guys want me to release it.
Lejay helped me.
Please contact me if you find a mistake.

[Jeff Kruchkow]

Ive actually been thinking about E. Tutor storm for a while now. Like Secretly said, tutoring LED is savage but even getting top at the right time is good. Also, it lets us play singleton sideboard answers which is just insanely nice.

E Tutor Main gives you out the the side:

U: Seal of Removal for hatebears
R: Seal of Fire for hatebears
G: Seal of Primordium and tutorable Carpets
W: Serenity + Seal of Cleansing
B: Seal of Doom (meh)

Also, it open up the option of using EE to stop hate jank since EE @ 2 stops most permanant hate.

The only real issue is that you have to play white, which has always felt like a subpar splash color in DDay.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

White isnt bad in D-Day, it's just not as good as red was, but that has changed a bit since the ban hammer smacked Blue Tutor and the newest ruling on LED; also, it got a bit better and easier with silence. I don't necessarily believe that Ad Nauseam is worth it anymore in a FT list. It's still gold in the faster lists, and can be used in Cunning Wish lists, but overall I think it's on it's way out. That's just my opinion though. I did love Pyroblasts, but nostalgia isn't worth talking about.

You forgot one or two cards it can grab:

EE -- Good against EtW tokens, Zombie Tokens, I used it day one to blow up a goyf and 2 Nantuko Shades (lol), and on day two I blew up a Sphere of resistance after tutoring for it in response to the Sphere. It was decent.

Ghostly Prison -- This can/will win you the goblin matchup. It buys so much time. It's not as good against zoo or merfolk (bigger creatures, counterspells, respectively), but still a decent card. Also throws off tempo of lists that depend on it.

Ensnaring Bridge -- Not so relevant but lists that rely on Prog or Emrakul have to find a way around it, it's playable off a Rit and very unexpected.

Oblivion Ring -- Not a solid choice when Serenity is in the list, so it's not good very often, but it still has it's uses.

-- ABCcretly

[Pulp_Fiction]

This saddens me.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Care to elaborate? I understand that a sound tongue-lashing is probably inevitable as you seem to be in a fairly self-righteous state of mind, but I'll take the bait anyway.

--ABC

[Pulp_Fiction]

I was actually just talking about how I took one of my newer lists to my local card shop the other day and lost out to solid luck. Running: 4x Dark Rit, 4x Cabal Rit, 4x LED, and 4x Petal; the deck seems incapable of giving me anything that I need at any point in time. Maxing out on good acceleration ... pfff, I dont draw it., but rather I draw 4 of my 16 lands in my first 4 draw steps with 3 lands already in hand.

Also when I posted, I was .... very drunk and about to play Left 4 Dead with fellow drunken idiots.

I stopped a long time ago telling people their tech was awful, I just let em play it now and respond to other parts of their posts hinting that other cards would be optimal in certain slots. For example: I used to be unable to imagine how someone could possibly run something like Ghostly Prison in combo and fire off a rant ripping their card choices apart. That accomplishes nothing and they play cards like that anyway to hopefully win 1-3 games with it then come back here and talk about how good it is. Now, the only thing I say is "if it works for u, run it". I have no idea why u want to play defense in the most aggressive of all legacy deck archetypes, but it it works, run it I guess.

[lorddotm]

What happened to LED?

What was that ruling that I seemed to have missed.

[DarthVicious]

What happened to LED?

What was that ruling that I seemed to have missed.

It wasn't really a ruling on LED he was talking about. It's the ruling that stops you from floating mana between steps. You can no longer crack LED in your upkeep to cast a card you will draw in your draw step.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Sorry Pulp_Fiction, I'm just used to people being certain ways on message boards, and as such try to head off unhelpful rants, which is what my last post can be written up to.

The list I was playing was aimed at a heavy blue meta but without red as an option. This disallowed the normal way of combating blue (EtW), and the list was about a turn slower than a normal FT List. This along with testing against aggro lists and Ichorid led me to try the Ghostly Prison as a way to buy a little more time against these lists that were beating me. Whenever I dropped one, I won. It was solid tech as long as I got it in time (Turn 1 or 2 tutor into it was a solid play). If there's a better way, I would love to hear it, but with the list I was playing, (already a 4c list), I couldn't feel comfortable in a wasteland heavy meta playing a 5th color (the fourth was just a splash; green).

I think from my efforts I learned one thing. Red is going to be important, and I believe I was wrong with my initial feeling that red is on its way out of combo. Theres a new creature in scars that costs (1)(W), its a 2/2 and stops players from searching their libraries. This means fetches get shut down, IT gets shut down, Enlightened Tutor gets shut down, D-Day gets shut down. Burning Wish however, does not. Cunning Wish neither, but the cmc is just a bit too stringent as far as I'm concerned. I can't seem to get it right.

I'm interested in Mox Opal and if a more SI approach might be a better idea than the last few lists I've seen. I'm tired of Ad Nauseam, it just can't bend to a situation. How does the general player of FT feel about Top in non-D-Day lists?

Also, why are players like Bryant and Emidln playing 3/1 Chants and Silence respectively? Isn't it just a better idea to play 4 chants?

Thanks guys,

--ABC

[emidln]

I don't play any protection spells in any builds outside of Duress, Thoughtseize, Daze, Force of Will, Spell Pierce, and Xantid Swarm. Force of Will and Spell Pierce are only for builds including Show and Tell. In a normal DDFT list, my choices are pretty much Duress, Thoughtseize, Daze, and Xantid Swarm.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

So you never use chant/silence? What's the reasoning behind this development? Is daze an actual possibility? I've never even heard of that as a possibility before. I suppose that's not too shabby of an idea. I'm guessing 4 duress, 4 daze, 1 Thoughtseize?

I don't think I've ever even considered playing blue protection, that's so silly. I'm going to try it.

--ABC

[Tokobotenkai]

So you never use chant/silence? What's the reasoning behind this development? Is daze an actual possibility? I've never even heard of that as a possibility before. I suppose that's not too shabby of an idea. I'm guessing 4 duress, 4 daze, 1 Thoughtseize?

I don't think I've ever even considered playing blue protection, that's so silly. I'm going to try it.

--ABC

That's because the deck itself is already 4 colors, 5 colors might be overdoing it.

The current builds I run only runs 4 Duress and 3 Daze with one Seize in SB.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I tested quite a bit last night and daze is freaking good. I think it's probably better than Pyroblast. My favorite play so far is Underground Sea into Duress with a Daze in hand.

I've played 5c lists, and they aren't bad in a wasteland light metagame, but that was with Mystical, so IDK how well it will work now. (loved 4 Duress, 4 PBlast, 1 Chant. That was the sh!t)

--ABC

[Pulp_Fiction]

I made it to a top 4 split at my local cardshop tonight out of 20-22 people. I am REALLY liking this list. Helm of Awakening is seriously nuts and flat out won me 2 games when I was at least 1 mana short of the win! I encountered basically every hate card (aside from Mindbreak Trap) in the format and came out rocking! I got good matchups but my opponents always got their hate cards into play. Here is the list I played followed by a short report:

4x Top
4x Duress
4x Dark Ritual
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Petal
4x LED
4x Burning Wish
4x Brainstorm
3x Doomsday
2x Thoughtseize
2x LDV
1x IGG
1x Helm of Awakening
1x Meditate
1x Emrakul
1x Tendrils

4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Polluted Delta
2x Underground Sea
2x City of Brass
1x Badlands
1x Volcanic Island
1x Swamp
1x Shelldock Isle

SB
1x Grapeshot
1x Tendrils
1x Thoughtseize
1x EtW
1x Doomsday
1x Infernal Tutor
1x Deathmark
1x Meltdown

2x Wipe Away
1x Slaughter Pact
1x Chain of Vapor
1x Pithing Needle
1x Sad Sac
1x Echoing Truth

Round 1 - Merfolk (0-2)
g1: He Wastelands me out of the game and after a Duress I see double Force, Spell Pierce and Merfolk.
g2: Mull to 5 and get overwhelmed.

Round 2 - Death and Taxes
g1: Turn 4 Meditate stack after a mull to 5.
g2: He drops a Runed Halo on Tendrils and gets met w GRAPESHOT for 100000000 on turn 4.

Round 3 - Pyromancer's Ascension combo
g1: Turn 4 Meditate stack after Duress and BW for Thoughtseize.
g2: I can't draw into shit after a mull to 6 and he mulls to 5. We are both left there drawing bricks. I Top into a Mediate and Brainstorm and go for it since my hand is all acceleration. Odds are on my side since I can potentially dig 10 cards into my deck. I hit Burning Wish and the game is quickly over.

Round 4 - G/W Death and Taxes
g1: He plays turn 2 Teeg. I Burning Wish for Deathmark and setup a kill on my turn 5 via LDV. I get there with the help of a recently drawn Helm and am able to IGG, bring back DD, LED, Brainstorm, and build a Meditate stack using the Brainstorm in my yard to bring it back.
g2: He mull to 6 and I Thoughtseize Teeg out of his hand. I easily win on turn 4 with a DD IGG stack.

Round 5 - B/G/w Vengevine Survival
g1: Turn 3 IGG stack easily gets there.
g2: THIS WAS SO BAD ASS. We both mulled to 6 and he starts off a little slow. I have a Top and Helm in play on turn 4 as well as 3 lands. I play a fetchland and look with Top, I see: Top, Tendrils, Emrakul. I think to myself, damnit deck stop giving me waiiiiiiiiit, THATS THE STONE COLD NUTS. I have Dark Ritual in hand and activate the Top to draw Top. Infinite storm ensues since Helm is in play, then I cast Dark Ritual, rearrage the top 3, draw Tendrils, tap a land and cast Tendrils for 1000000! The best part was when I told my opponent "ok, activate Top to draw Top, infinite storm". The look of absolute shock on his face was sooooo priceless!

Overall there is not a single thing I would change about the deck except going to 3x Duress and 3x Thoughtseize in the main. I can win so many ways that its just insanity. You have Empty the Warrens, Tendrils, Emrakul, and Grapeshot! The versatility of this deck is insane. The only problem is the inability to beat Merfolk almost ever. I really want 2-4 Xantid Swarm in the board but this is literally the only matchup where its good! I suppose I could make room for 2x Swarm and replace a City of Brass w/ Bayou but .... I don't know. Maybe its worth it.

It feels excellent to put down some good results with DD again. I would highly recommend Helm in the main, its just so good. It won me some games out of nowhere and is just ridiculously effective! The only problem w/ Helm is that it adds a whole other degree of difficulty to the deck. The DD math that I have embedded into my brain has to be slightly altered as does the IGG loop. You can IGG loop w just 2x Dark Rit and an IT! It throws off mana costs but just take another 10 seconds, work the math out, then go with it. Thoughts?

[Pulp_Fiction]

This deck rocks, tis sad that most idiots cant play it correctrly. but whatca u do?

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

@ Pulp_Fiction: How are you liking the Sadistic Sacrament out of the board? Could you explain the practical uses for it, or is it mostly to steal win conditions out of random decks.

[Doomsday]

Are there any decks that Sad Sac actually takes the win conditions from, now that all of the storm decks play Burning Wish?

[Pulp_Fiction]

There is still quite a bit of Reanimator and combo in my meta. It also has its uses against TES since u could remove: AdN, Tendrils, and EtW, forcing them to get double BWish to get things going. Against Reanimatior I side it in since I will basically be wishing for Deathmark or trying to find bounce. Sad Sac adds another savage threat to them and acts as good counterbait or forces them to discard it from your hand over something more relevant in your hand. And against combo its just a serious I win card or a ridiculously good stall tactic (everything but Belcher). This is a meta slot though, if you don't see those 2 decks often I wouldn't bother running it.

[flrn]

4x Top
4x Duress
4x Dark Ritual
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Petal
4x LED
4x Burning Wish
4x Brainstorm
3x Doomsday
2x Thoughtseize
2x LDV
1x IGG
1x Helm of Awakening
1x Meditate
1x Emrakul
1x Tendrils

4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Polluted Delta
2x Underground Sea
2x City of Brass
1x Badlands
1x Volcanic Island
1x Swamp
1x Shelldock Isle

SB
1x Grapeshot
1x Tendrils
1x Thoughtseize
1x EtW
1x Doomsday
1x Infernal Tutor
1x Deathmark
1x Meltdown

2x Wipe Away
1x Slaughter Pact
1x Chain of Vapor
1x Pithing Needle
1x Sad Sac
1x Echoing Truth

First of all let me say, that I think that everyone. who pilots this deck should build his list on his own. If that list works out well for you, stick to it, but I have several questions about your list. To break down your list in categories:

Business (9):
4 Burning Wish
3 Doomsday
2 Lim-Dul's Vault

Protection (6):
4 Duress
2 Thoughtseize

Mana Acceleration (16):
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

Cardquality/Carddraw (9):
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Meditate

Lands (16):
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
2 City of Brass
1 Badlands
1 Volcanic Island
1 Swamp
1 Shelldock Isle

Dead Cards (4):
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Helm of Awakening
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Tendrils of Agony

I think you are playing way too much mana acceleration. There is no need at all to play this much mana acceleration, since you are mostly going off turn 3-4 and by then you should have at least 3 lands in play to pay for the costs of the standard piles. Mostly I only have/need one Dark Ritual to go off. I don't think those Cabal Ritual's are needed at all. This directly leads me to the second point.

I personally think that your manabase is horrible. Why do you play City of Brass? You are only playing three colours. My current approach on this deck plays four colours and I have no problems at all fixing my mana. Why are you playing the Basic Swamp over the Basic Island? The Basic Island is way more important since it helps you casting your cantrips pre-combo to fix your hand to go off. The one black mana as initial manasource never should be a problem. Hell since you only play three colours you could go for a manabase that could easily support Pulverize out of the board, which is way better than Meltdown. Another problem is that you only play 15 "real" lands. My current approach features 17 lands and Shelldock Isle isn't one of em. I had the feeling that I have to mulligan too often due to not having the right amount of mana on my opening hand. Ever since i added the 17th land, I didn't had to take a single mulligan due to not having the right amount of mana on my hand. Since you only play eight cards (Top and Brainstorm) to fix your hand, you are either really lucky with your landdrops, or you mulligan quite often, or you have sick shuffle skills.

A solid three colour manabase could look like this:

4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands

There at least three red lands needed to support Pulverize. If you want to play 17 lands, you could add another Underground Sea.

Another Point: Why are you still playing Meditate over Idea's Unbound. Here in europe most pilots have switched to Idea's Unbound, since it's most of the time way better than Meditate. You wrote that you were one mana short in several games and Helm of Awakening won you these games. Let me say that Doomsday piles that contain Idea's Unbound mostly need one mana less than piles, which are using Meditate. Also piles with Idea's Unbound are creating at least the same amount of storm than Meditate Piles. I personally don't think that there is any need to play Helm of Awakening.

Here is my list for reference:

1 Street Wraith

4 Brainstorm
1 Chain of Vapor
4 Dark Ritual
3 Daze
2 Lim-Dul's Vault

4 Burning Wish
3 Doomsday
3 Duress
1 Ideas Unbound
4 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Lotus Petal
4 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

Sideboard

1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Vexing Shusher
4 Xantid Swarm
1 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away
1 Doomsday
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Hull Breach
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Shelldock Isle

[Pulp_Fiction]

I would say we have a drastic difference in playstyles. Some like the slow setup approach and I personally want to build a more aggressive and diverse build.

I am playing the right amount of mana acceleration for me. Everytime I ran 2x CRit I still had mana problems whether I played 15 or 17 lands or 2-4 Ponders. I could not pull off playing as little acceleration as u do and I don't ever want to rely on hitting land drops after 2, rather I would like to just have additional acceleration. I regularly get Wastelanded and would rather rely on my acceleration to get me out of there and be explosive rather then rely on my opponent not drawing multiple Wastelands (or Loam recursion) and stopping me from comboing off OR subject myself to almost instant losses to a turn 1 Moon effect. This is the configuration that works for me. Also, I only have 2 dead cards, Emrakul and Tendrils. IGG (especially when playing CRits) wins games out of nowhere or if in the opening hand can mindtwist the opponent. Rarely am I upset to draw IGG. Same with Helm, everyone seems to assume that its a dead draw ... not at all. This card allows the deck to be even more insane and win through additional hate cards. Rather than find answers I can play around most anything aside from Null Rod. Helm also turns off Sphere effects .... just something interesting and it makes you win out of nowhere. Whether people think it is good on paper or not, try it out, I really enjoy it.

I assume you are the person on the stormboards who can't imagine playing the deck without 4 Ponders. I don't like Ponder nor want it. Just a preference thing, I have never had problems playing as much dig as I do. However, the reason I have success with builds like this is that I mulligan VERY aggressively. I don't ever keep hands of all acceleration and Brainstorm, but I will keep all accel and Top. I have no reservations about going down to 5 but I also know when to keep risky hands.

I have never ONCE had mana problems with that manabase. Works for me. I love City of Brass, and here is why. I have the worst luck u can imagine, I'm like a negative rabbits foot. So I just assume that I am going to be mana-screwed or Wastelanded down to 1 land, enter City of Brass. I don't worry about making more than 2 land drops when I have City, I never have mana problems. Don't like the manabase, don't run it. I run a Swamp because I don't ever want to see a basic Island. I have 7 blue cards .... why would I want an Island, much rather have a swamp to start casting rituals. Playing 17 lands feels very excessive to me. 16 is fine, and my meta has a lot of Reanimator and CB, Emrakul in the main is great and Shelldock by itself acts as another shuffle effect for Top if you are stalled and randomly wins games when you put a cantrip under it. Unless it is in my opening hand (chances are small) I am usually happy to see Shelldock. And with the additional acceleration, it makes Shelldock even less of a problem in your hand. Its all player preference, Cook runs 13 lands in TES and feels it's excessive, I run 14-15 and feel it's barely enough. All preference, but 15 lands is not excessive at all, every 1/4 is a land.

As far as Meltdown goes ... its a preference thing. I just assume that against Stax I'm going to get wastelanded and won't really have access to 2 mountains that easily. Save for the rare situations where I have 3 Fetchlands in play and can BW for Pulverive without being Wastelanded in the process. Meltdown can be cast off of acceleration and a single land if need be. Thats the only reason I play it. Everything I play always assumes a worst case scenario and the opponent has exactly what they need, so I play cards that I think give me the best odds of making it out of nearly any situation.

Those games where I was 1 mana short were where I was casting MULTIPLE non-acceleration spells before DD and I CRit into it, Helm turns it into a DRit! I don't like Ideas Unbound. That simple. It nets you negative cards and makes you play a Ponder/SW. I have won NUMEROUS games based on the all-in Meditate play but I also have played Meditate go against a lot of stuff. I have tested IU before and I just don't care for it, I much prefer Meditate, and with the additional rituals, I regularly have 2-3 when comboing off and need only a U to cast Meditate afterward. I think UU puts more of a reliance on LEDs. And now that I am considering splashing green I would really not want to worry about always having LEDs to cast it. Sounds like City of Brass would be quite good here :) Also, I have found very little difference in the mana requirements of both while Meditate stacks regularly give me just as much of more storm.

I really like this build and people keep taking Helm the wrong way, its just an additional out adding further versatility to the manner of ways you can can beat the opponent and their hate cards. Perhaps I play DD very differently than you do. I couldn't imagine ever wanting Daze in my hand since I won't ever play reactive protection spells, but if it works for you, play it. This is why I like playing the build that I do, and if you have any doubts shuffle it up and test it, you may be surprised.

[flrn]

Well as I said in the first sentence of my post. I think every Doomsday pilot has to build his list on his own, since there are a lot of different approaches to the deck. Your list just looks so "black", that i had to write down my thoughts on it and ask you how you feel about some choices, even though I'm almost certain, that I couldn't play your approach of the deck. You may be right about the drastic difference in playstyles.

And yeah you are right, Ponders have been really awesome for me. I consider it a really good choice in a Doomsday build, even though i often find myself boarding three of em out, since deckspace is tight. I'm sure your manabase works for you. But as I said, I don't like to mulligan, because i don't have the needed mana on my opening seven. But if you are as aggressive as you say, why don't you play Gemstone Mine instead of City of Brass. After all, Doomsday still costs you half of your life and your total lifepoints are quite precious pre-combo. That's why I'm thinking about playing the fourth Duress instead of the second Thoughtseize in my list.

You can also go all-in with Idea's Unbound, since the discard effect takes place at the end of the turn. With my manabase it's no problem to cast Idea's Unbound and then go off, since I normally hit all my landdrops until turn 4 or 5. And as you can see, most of my lands are producing blue mana. There's only 1 Bayou and 1 Badlands, who don't produce blue mana. That's why I don't heavily depend on Lion's Eye Diamond to cast the blue stuff after Doomsday.

How many storm does your standard pile produce after you casted Doomsday? I'm mostly using those two piles:

With SDT in play:

Idea's Unbound, Lion's Eye Diamond, Street Wraith, Lion's Eye Diamond, Burning Wish

With Ponder/Brainstorm in hand:

Idea's Unbound, Lion's Eye Diamond, Lion's Eye Diamond, Ponder, Burning Wish

Both piles need three mana (1st one: 1UU, 2nd one: UUU) and create storm 6 after Doomsday.

Oh and Daze won me several games Especially post-board people wan't their protection pieces to hit the table as soon as possible. They get greedy. Daze is a card, which punishes greedy opponents. Dazing the second turn Ethersworn Canonist just feels that good.

[Pulp_Fiction]

I adjust the piles as needed but the stack I use most often is: (Top in play) Meditate, LED, LED, Petal, Burning Wish which creates 7 storm after DD and only costs 2U after DD.

Without Top in play and BS in hand it depends on how many cards I have in hand, but assuming 0 I will build something like: Meditate, Petal, Ritual, Ritual, Tendrils which creates 6 storm after DD and only costs 2U after DD.

The mana requirements for Meditate are way better than IU I think and I still keep coming back to the double ritual thing and only needing U after DD. Not saying it is better but I find it is easier to cast when an opponent is actually doing stuff to disrupt your game plan.

[emidln]

I played this to 3-1 today in the MTGO Daily event:

3 Burning Wish
3 Doomsday
2 Infernal Tutor
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
3 Orim's Chant
3 Silence
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Meditate
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Dark Ritual
3 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
2 Island

SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Doomsday
SB: 1 Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 Ideas Unbound
SB: 1 Meltdown
SB: 1 Duress
SB: 4 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Shelldock Isle
SB: 1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
SB: 1 Cloud of Faeries
SB: 1 Wipe Away

My loss was to a mono black discard deck that had Thoughtseize+Specter turn 1 in game 1 and double discard + specter by turn 2 in game 3. I beat Imperial Aluren, Dredge, and Death and Taxes.

FWIW, I won with Med/LED/LED/Wish/Wish as a pass the turn pile twice. Against Death and Taxes, Ideas Unbound would have been a mana cheaper to Chain of Vapor the Runed Halo while comboing, but I had a spare 3-4 mana anyway.

Meditate and IU tend to have the same CMC to win, but in a deck with a large amount of black mana from Cabal Rits, I find myself with BBU a lot. I won at least one game today due to being able to win with CRit->DD then use an island to cast Meditate after SDT. Meditate actually drawing 4 cards was relevant twice and the card advantage let me pull ahead in an attrition war both times (vs Aluren).

[lorddotm]

I played this to 3-1 today in the MTGO Daily event:

3 Burning Wish
3 Doomsday
2 Infernal Tutor
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
3 Orim's Chant
3 Silence
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Meditate
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Dark Ritual
3 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
2 Island

SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Doomsday
SB: 1 Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 Ideas Unbound
SB: 1 Meltdown
SB: 1 Duress
SB: 4 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Shelldock Isle
SB: 1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
SB: 1 Cloud of Faeries
SB: 1 Wipe Away

My loss was to a mono black discard deck that had Thoughtseize+Specter turn 1 in game 1 and double discard + specter by turn 2 in game 3. I beat Imperial Aluren, Dredge, and Death and Taxes.

FWIW, I won with Med/LED/LED/Wish/Wish as a pass the turn pile twice. Against Death and Taxes, Ideas Unbound would have been a mana cheaper to Chain of Vapor the Runed Halo while comboing, but I had a spare 3-4 mana anyway.

Meditate and IU tend to have the same CMC to win, but in a deck with a large amount of black mana from Cabal Rits, I find myself with BBU a lot. I won at least one game today due to being able to win with CRit->DD then use an island to cast Meditate after SDT. Meditate actually drawing 4 cards was relevant twice and the card advantage let me pull ahead in an attrition war both times (vs Aluren).

Interesting list.

I always thought you were an 8 Duress kinda guy, apparently not.

Was the 3/2 split between Tutors good?

[lordofthepit]

I played this to 3-1 today in the MTGO Daily event:

3 Burning Wish
3 Doomsday
2 Infernal Tutor
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
3 Orim's Chant
3 Silence
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Meditate
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Dark Ritual
3 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
2 Island

SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Doomsday
SB: 1 Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 Ideas Unbound
SB: 1 Meltdown
SB: 1 Duress
SB: 4 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Shelldock Isle
SB: 1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
SB: 1 Cloud of Faeries
SB: 1 Wipe Away

My loss was to a mono black discard deck that had Thoughtseize+Specter turn 1 in game 1 and double discard + specter by turn 2 in game 3. I beat Imperial Aluren, Dredge, and Death and Taxes.

FWIW, I won with Med/LED/LED/Wish/Wish as a pass the turn pile twice. Against Death and Taxes, Ideas Unbound would have been a mana cheaper to Chain of Vapor the Runed Halo while comboing, but I had a spare 3-4 mana anyway.

Meditate and IU tend to have the same CMC to win, but in a deck with a large amount of black mana from Cabal Rits, I find myself with BBU a lot. I won at least one game today due to being able to win with CRit->DD then use an island to cast Meditate after SDT. Meditate actually drawing 4 cards was relevant twice and the card advantage let me pull ahead in an attrition war both times (vs Aluren).

I love how you squeezed 14 cantrips into this list. Looks pretty sick.

[flrn]

Played the deck today in our local tournament with my list some posts above this one with the following changes: - 1 Underground Sea, + 1 Volcanic Island and in the board -1 Hull Breach, + 1 Pulverize.

I'm just wondering if you guys go for the Emrakul Plan against Enchantress if you keep a slow hand, since Enchantress has that 1-off Karakas. I had to face Enchantress in two rounds today and while I was doing the Emrakul Plan against the first opponent (won me the game), I didn't brought it in against the second opponent. I lost against the second opponent. since I couldn't find a single cantrip in five round, where I was holding the kill, but didn't had a card to draw myself into the pile.

Also TES is a sucky matchup without Chants, since I have to make my deck worse. Due to him playing Chants, I have to bring in Swarms.

[emidln]

Played the deck today in our local tournament with my list some posts above this one with the following changes: - 1 Underground Sea, + 1 Volcanic Island and in the board -1 Hull Breach, + 1 Pulverize.

I'm just wondering if you guys go for the Emrakul Plan against Enchantress if you keep a slow hand, since Enchantress has that 1-off Karakas. I had to face Enchantress in two rounds today and while I was doing the Emrakul Plan against the first opponent (won me the game), I didn't brought it in against the second opponent. I lost against the second opponent. since I couldn't find a single cantrip in five round, where I was holding the kill, but didn't had a card to draw myself into the pile.

Why does this matter against Enchantress? Just build a pass the turn pile. Not like they have pressure.

[flrn]

Why does this matter against Enchantress? Just build a pass the turn pile. Not like they have pressure.

It was a build including Living Wish, so a pass the turn pile would have been too risky, since he easily had those 4 mana to go: Living Wish -> Canonist/Teeg. Since I had no cantrip all game, I also couldn't replace a cantrip card in a pass the turn pile with a bouncespell.

[kiwi]

Im thinking about playing spell pierce in side board because its gods againts teps and blue decks,
What do you think about playing spell pierce in sideboard ?

[death]

Spell Pierce works kinda like a more efficient retroactive duress. Not exactly better but the mana you save first few turns can be spent into assembling the combo kill the following turn, that is if they don't play something relevant.

It worked against my opponent's CotV. Downside if of course you can't peek if they have traps and the game can reach to a point where they can just pay for it. It can't stop a Ethersworn Cannonist and this is where Thoughtseize is better.

[flrn]

Im thinking about playing spell pierce in side board because its gods againts teps and blue decks,
What do you think about playing spell pierce in sideboard ?

Counters are good against greedy opponents, who want to throw their hate out as fast as possible. That's why Daze is good, because people often drop that second turn Canonist. Spell Pierce on the other hand doesn't hit Canonist. It's quite good against opposing counters, but since you play LED to get your mana goin opponents will simply wait till you dropped your hand to counter the stuff after you broke your LED's. That's why I wouldn't go for Spell Pierce.

[Piceli89]

I top4ed yesterday in a little 32-men tourney with my list of Fetchland Tendrils+ Ad Nauseam hybrid. I won against Burn, Life.dec, Survival with Negates, Fows, Vvines and hatebears post-side, then ID the 4th and 5th round. In the quarters I beat Elves with Thorn post-side and 8 Blood Moon MD, then in the semi I lost to URB Dreadstill even if I could have won the 1st game if I had find a fucking acceleration despites BSing, Topping, fetching, BSing and so on.

List, for reference:


// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [U] Tropical Island
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [A] Underground Sea
1 [A] Tundra
1 [U] Scrubland
1 [BRB] Plains (6)
1 [10E] Island (2)
1 [ALA] Swamp (3)

// Spells
1 [TE] Meditate
3 [JGC] Orim's Chant
2 [M10] Silence
1 [ON] Chain of Vapor
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
2 [DDC] Duress
1 [FNM] Tendrils of Agony
3 [TO] Cabal Ritual
1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
4 [US] Dark Ritual
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [V09] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [6E] Doomsday
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [U] Tropical Island
SB: 2 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [6E] Doomsday
SB: 1 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
SB: 1 [5E] Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 3 [RAV] Dark Confidant
SB: 3 [SC] Xantid Swarm

As you can see, it's more focused on being an ANT than a DDFT, with Doomsday being the additional tutors ANT now lacks and granting a better Mu and post-side asset against control-heavy decks (CB and Tempo). The list ran smoothly all day, I would just change a bit the sideboard because I think, without Emrakul, 4 cc3 split seconds are required against CB, and therefore also Carpet is.

[Bahamuth]

How good is this list under AdN? I wrote down a very similar list a while ago when looking to replace the Grim Tutors in Ari Lax's list.

Why don't you run Emrakul sideboard?

[Piceli89]

This list is surely not optimized for Ad Nauseam, but I came to the conclusion AdN is a bomb you can't renounce to in certain situations when you have a Infernal+LED and Chant hand, and your opponent counters the Chant. What can you do here?
1)you can't go for the IGG loop because they have Fow in the graveyard, unless you're so mana high that you are able to pick back Chant, Infernal and LED/ritual.
2) you don't have Top in play, therefore no Doomsday piles.

This happened also in Doomsday ANT, remember that beautiful deck we used to play? I think this is its son.

Here Ad Nauseam allows you to not wait in topdeck mode to find another piece of protection to IGG loop or to find a cantrip for Doomsday. You just go all-in and cast it, and if you have 1 black mana floating you're really likely to win before suiciding. Also, please note you can also stop if you don't want to risk and Chant them then go off on your turn. You play 5 chants. Rarely you will Kicker Orim's due to no Chrome Mox, but it's surely better than if you were playing Thoughtseize.
This has won me SEVERAL games I would have before lost due to having to wait to rebuild a protection-with hand. The more time you give them, the more they will beat you. Ad Nauseam costs 1 slot and wins on the spot. Even without Chrome Moxes.

Little story in testings:
I did this against Bant to Chant him t2, he thought of a bluff, I went off with Infernal and all-in. IGG was missing 1 storm.
I could bluff Chanting the opponent in their upkeep to cast my Ad Nauseam on top off LEDs with SDT.

Little story in tournament:
Yesterday I played against a Life.dec. We were g3. He was on the play. He starts Mom, I fan my 7:
Dark ritual, Cabal ritual, Petal, Land, Ad Nauseam, X, Infernal.
This allowed to go off g1, flip Dark ritual, Dark ritual, and IGG, stop at like 4 lives, and then IGG loop for the win retrieving Dark, Cabal and Infernal. He scooped it up and I saw a Gaddock in hand. I would not have won if that AdN was a DD or IGG.

Ad Nauseam is just the mad bullet that will win you games on spot, and adds another angle to the deck, particularly effective against control-heavy (tempo) decks where Doomsday gets hit by Stifle on Top, or you just have to run before Counterbalance comes down.
It works, trust me. It's not like it was in ANT, but it's still very powerful and you'll find yourself winning with Ad Nauseam several times against those decks.

Post-side you cut it out if you want to slowroll the opponent, or you have to board in Grips and Wipe Aways against CB.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Emrakul is not needed anymore because of CB having reduced in numbers, and, sincerely, I always found that plan to be pretty situational and risky, because people got used to it after the GP success and came to know this plan; not to mention here Counterbalance is always accompanied by a strong dose of either Bant super-exalted creatures, or Dreadnoughts ft. StifleWaste.
I'm kind more of a pure combo player, Tendrils is more safe and doesn't require to pack 2 horrible cards that do little or nothing on their own. I'd use those 2 slots for the another Grip and another Duress or bounce.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Here's my list. Looking for feedback and comments.. more on the sideboard than anything else. I also have this posted on storm boards. Thanks in advance.

I don't have access to Polluted Deltas at the moment. I only own playsets of Bloodstained Mire, Scalding Tarn and Misty Rainforest. With my manabase, would what I have listed be the 'correct' configuration?

18 Land
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
2 Swamp
1 Island
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Shelldock Isle

1 Creature
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

41 Spells
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Burning Wish
4 Duress
3 Daze
3 Doomsday
2 Lotus Petal
1 Thoughtseize
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Meditate
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-Gotten Gains

15 Sideboard
4 Dark Confidant
3 Xantid Swarm
2 Krosan Grip
1 Echoing Truth
1 Doomsday
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Deathmark
1 Meltdown

[kicks_422]

Why not cut down the Petal to just 1? 1 is all you really need, and 2 just seems too random.

@Piceli89: You could have just asked for me to make an avatar for you.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Why not cut down the Petal to just 1? 1 is all you really need, and 2 just seems too random.

@Piceli89: You could have just asked for me to make an avatar for you.

I'm not really sure why I ran 2 petals in the first place. I realized it's awkwardness last night while testing.. the only reason I'd ever need it is piles like:

Meditate
Lotus Petal
Dark Ritual
Dark Ritual
Tendrils

What do you think about the Dark Confidants in the sideboard?

[Piceli89]

Why not cut down the Petal to just 1? 1 is all you really need, and 2 just seems too random.

@Piceli89: You could have just asked for me to make an avatar for you.

Sorry, this is just too cool to not use it. But I'll delete it if you mind.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Alright I am not trying to clog this thread up with decklists because I hate when people repeatedly post their list, but I feel this is necessary. I have been doing some testing and I recently realized how little I like LDV in the deck. The card is sick good when the conditions are right, but if I am staring at a 5-6 cards hand, thats the last thing I want 2 see most of the time. Now when LDV resolves and I have a few accelerants and mana available, I almost always win and it helps me tutor up SB cards and LEDs. But I don't like seeing it all that often, so I started hopping onto the Ponder train and that did wonders. I also cut a Cabal Ritual for a 3rd Ponder and I feel this has made the deck stronger than ever. Here is the list I am currently playing:

4x Top
3x Duress
4x Dark Ritual
3x Cabal Ritual
4x Petal
4x LED
4x Burning Wish
4x Brainstorm
3x Doomsday
3x Thoughtseize
3x Ponder
1x IGG
1x Helm of Awakening
1x Meditate
1x Emrakul
1x Tendrils

4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Polluted Delta
1x Underground Sea
2x City of Brass
1x Badlands
1x Volcanic Island
1x Swamp
1x Shelldock Isle
1x Bayou

SB
1x Grapeshot
1x Tendrils
1x Thoughtseize
1x EtW
1x Doomsday
1x Deathmark
1x Meltdown

1x Wipe Away
1x Slaughter Pact
1x Chain of Vapor
2x Echoing Truth
3x Swarm

I realized that I have to have the Swarm against Merfolk, otherwise its a near auto-loss. Swarm is also really good in the Reanimator matchup and he has won me quite a few games since it can chump block after a pass the turn pile. The manabase is rock solid and I don't ever have mana problems. I am considering cutting 1x Echoing Truth from the board and putting in Reverent Silence just to make Enchantress a permanent bye. And even though I am not the least bit scared of the white Leyline since goblin tokens and Emrakul just rock it in the face but its always nice to have the option of removing it and winning on the spot rather than passing the turn a few times before winning.

Something I am also greatly considering is Stifle for an Emrakul stack. I absolutely hate protection spells that are only reactive but this is a really funny answer to Karakas and all the cute little tricks people like 2 play while you go the Emrakul route. Now I am not sure if this is even a remotely good idea but has anyone ever tested this? Again, I don't think it will be very good since anything running Karakas you are going to beat anyway with Tendrils but its an option. It would also be an interesting answer against Wasteland in a pass the turn pile but in order to not deck yourself you would have to have access to more mana for a DD to reshuffle or have a Top in play and build a pile like: Shelldock, Stifle, Emrakul, Rit, DD or something like that. Does this seem like something viable or does it just sound worthless and situational?

[Pulp_Fiction]

Alright I am not trying to clog this thread up with decklists because I hate when people repeatedly post their list, but I feel this is necessary. I have been doing some testing and I recently realized how little I like LDV in the deck. The card is sick good when the conditions are right, but if I am staring at a 5-6 cards hand, thats the last thing I want 2 see most of the time. Now when LDV resolves and I have a few accelerants and mana available, I almost always win and it helps me tutor up SB cards and LEDs. But I don't like seeing it all that often, so I started hopping onto the Ponder train and that did wonders. I also cut a Cabal Ritual for a 3rd Ponder and I feel this has made the deck stronger than ever. Here is the list I am currently playing:

4x Top
3x Duress
4x Dark Ritual
3x Cabal Ritual
4x Petal
4x LED
4x Burning Wish
4x Brainstorm
3x Doomsday
3x Thoughtseize
3x Ponder
1x IGG
1x Helm of Awakening
1x Meditate
1x Emrakul
1x Tendrils

4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Polluted Delta
1x Underground Sea
2x City of Brass
1x Badlands
1x Volcanic Island
1x Swamp
1x Shelldock Isle
1x Bayou

SB
1x Grapeshot
1x Tendrils
1x Thoughtseize
1x EtW
1x Doomsday
1x Deathmark
1x Meltdown

1x Wipe Away
1x Slaughter Pact
1x Chain of Vapor
2x Echoing Truth
3x Swarm

I realized that I have to have the Swarm against Merfolk, otherwise its a near auto-loss. Swarm is also really good in the Reanimator matchup and he has won me quite a few games since it can chump block after a pass the turn pile. The manabase is rock solid and I don't ever have mana problems. I am considering cutting 1x Echoing Truth from the board and putting in Reverent Silence just to make Enchantress a permanent bye. And even though I am not the least bit scared of the white Leyline since goblin tokens and Emrakul just rock it in the face but its always nice to have the option of removing it and winning on the spot rather than passing the turn a few times before winning.

Something I am also greatly considering is Stifle for an Emrakul stack. I absolutely hate protection spells that are only reactive but this is a really funny answer to Karakas and all the cute little tricks people like 2 play while you go the Emrakul route. Now I am not sure if this is even a remotely good idea but has anyone ever tested this? Again, I don't think it will be very good since anything running Karakas you are going to beat anyway with Tendrils but its an option.

[maxflow2]

Something I am also greatly considering is Stifle for an Emrakul stack. I absolutely hate protection spells that are only reactive but this is a really funny answer to Karakas and all the cute little tricks people like 2 play while you go the Emrakul route. Now I am not sure if this is even a remotely good idea but has anyone ever tested this? Again, I don't think it will be very good since anything running Karakas you are going to beat anyway with Tendrils but its an option.

Wouldn't Pithing Needle be better? With Pithing Needle, you don't need two lands in play to activate Shelldock and keep Stifle open. I'd also much rather naturally draw the needle than Stifle.

[lorddotm]

Alright I am not trying to clog this thread up with decklists because I hate when people repeatedly post their list, but I feel this is necessary. I have been doing some testing and I recently realized how little I like LDV in the deck. The card is sick good when the conditions are right, but if I am staring at a 5-6 cards hand, thats the last thing I want 2 see most of the time. Now when LDV resolves and I have a few accelerants and mana available, I almost always win and it helps me tutor up SB cards and LEDs. But I don't like seeing it all that often, so I started hopping onto the Ponder train and that did wonders. I also cut a Cabal Ritual for a 3rd Ponder and I feel this has made the deck stronger than ever. Here is the list I am currently playing:

4x Top
3x Duress
4x Dark Ritual
3x Cabal Ritual
4x Petal
4x LED
4x Burning Wish
4x Brainstorm
3x Doomsday
3x Thoughtseize
3x Ponder
1x IGG
1x Helm of Awakening
1x Meditate
1x Emrakul
1x Tendrils

4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Polluted Delta
1x Underground Sea
2x City of Brass
1x Badlands
1x Volcanic Island
1x Swamp
1x Shelldock Isle
1x Bayou

SB
1x Grapeshot
1x Tendrils
1x Thoughtseize
1x EtW
1x Doomsday
1x Deathmark
1x Meltdown

1x Wipe Away
1x Slaughter Pact
1x Chain of Vapor
2x Echoing Truth
3x Swarm

I realized that I have to have the Swarm against Merfolk, otherwise its a near auto-loss. Swarm is also really good in the Reanimator matchup and he has won me quite a few games since it can chump block after a pass the turn pile. The manabase is rock solid and I don't ever have mana problems. I am considering cutting 1x Echoing Truth from the board and putting in Reverent Silence just to make Enchantress a permanent bye. And even though I am not the least bit scared of the white Leyline since goblin tokens and Emrakul just rock it in the face but its always nice to have the option of removing it and winning on the spot rather than passing the turn a few times before winning.

Something I am also greatly considering is Stifle for an Emrakul stack. I absolutely hate protection spells that are only reactive but this is a really funny answer to Karakas and all the cute little tricks people like 2 play while you go the Emrakul route. Now I am not sure if this is even a remotely good idea but has anyone ever tested this? Again, I don't think it will be very good since anything running Karakas you are going to beat anyway with Tendrils but its an option.

That is almost my exact list (changes with the mana base). I was trying to find room for the 4th Ponder, but it does not look like that is going to happen.

[Pulp_Fiction]

I took the list I posted above to my local tournament and made it to a top 4 split out of about 20-25 people. I will write a short report with comments.

Round 1 - Standard G/B stuff (2-0)
g1: Turn 1 Dark Rit DD go. Pile: Brainstorm, LED, LED, IGG, Tendrils
g2: Turn 3 Meditate pile of: Meditate, Rit, Rit, Petal, Tendrils

Round 2 - R/G Affinity w Chalice in the Main and Trinisphere in the side (2-1)
g1: Mull to 4 ... lose.
g2: He mulls to 4 and loses.
g3: Turn 1 Thoughtseize gets his Trinisphere. He rips Chalice off the top and drops it at 0 and plays turn 4 Trinishpere. I can't draw a land but Heml helps me out. Meltdown clears his board and my hand is this: Meditate, DRit, Petal, CRit, Top and I have 4 lands in play (one is a City and I will lose if I tap it cause I'm at one). I throw out a hail mary Meditate at 1 life and hit a Burning Wish + LED ... he is at 12 life from his lands and Sylvan Library.

Round 3 - B/G Vengvival (0-2)
g1: He rips my hand apart with Thoughtseize and flashbacked Therapies and I die on turn 5 to Vengevines.
g2: I Duress him on turn 1 and see: 2x Thoughtseize, E Witness, Mindbreak Trap, Birds, Survival, and a land .... I lose in short order after he hits both times with a fresh Therapy and recurred Survival.

Round 4 - DDFT (2-0)
g1: We rip eachother's hands up and on turn 4 my hand is: 3x Petal, Meditate, IGG, Burning Wish and 2 lands in play. I play a Petal and pass assuming another Duress is coming. On his turn he Duresses me and I respond w Meditate and draw the nuts and he is forced to take my Wish. On my next turn he gets IGGed out with the help of some freshly drawn threshed CRits :)
g2: He sideboardes wrong since he wished for DD last game and goes for a pass the turn pile on turn 1 ..... DD isn't there and he concedes.

Round 5 - Big Zoo (2-0)
g1: Turn 2 Meditate pile w the stone cold nuts. Pile: Meditate, Petal, DRit, DRit, Tendrils
g2: My turn 1 Thoughtseize sees Teeg AND Null Rod. I take the Null Rod and Teeg hits the board. After some filtering w Top I finally get what I need and on turn 4 fire off this pile w a Top in play: Meditate, Top, Helm, LED, BWish. The main reason I went for this stack is I HAD too. He had a Vial in play w 2 counters on it and I didn't board in Pact since I was sure he had Null Rod. Turns out that playing it safe won me the game. After I Graopshotted him for 10000,0000,0,0,0 damage he told me that he wanted me 2 kill his Teeg so bad and showed me the other in his hand. So had I gone for a turn 3 meditate pile of: Meditate, Pact, Rit, Rit, Tendrils I would have flat out lost the game. This is why I so much appreciate having the option of Helmshot ... while a cute trick, it is ridiculously effective and flat out wins games.

Overall I am very happy with how the deck played, I would not change a thing about the list and I managed to deal with every hate card imaginable. I made a mistake against the Survival player and should not have boarded out the Emrakul plan ... I saw Wasteland in g1 so I took it out. Had I known he had that much hate I would have left it in. But aside from the the deck played super well, I mulled about 4-6 times but I mull a lot more than most people do. I am very satisfied w the list and the way it performed.

[kicks_422]

In lieu of HelmShot in Game 2 against Zoo, wouldn't you have won as well if you went the Emrakul+Shelldock route?

[DerFern]

Round 1 - Standard G/B stuff (2-0)
g1: Turn 1 Dark Rit DD go. Pile: Brainstorm, LED, LED, IGG, Tendrils

Isn´t this a veeeery risky play? From "Standard BG Stuff" I would expect Thoughtseize, Duress, Hymn, Wasteland. All of the stuff that would have totally wrecked your plan. Or am I missing something? With this pile you need to have 2 Mana (or Street Wraith of course) AND a second draw spell apart from the Brainstorm in your pile AND one more card in your hand to put it back...


Round 5 - Big Zoo (2-0)
g2: My turn 1 Thoughtseize sees Teeg AND Null Rod. I take the Null Rod and Teeg hits the board. After some filtering w Top I finally get what I need and on turn 4 fire off this pile w a Top in play: Meditate, Top, Helm, LED, BWish. The main reason I went for this stack is I HAD too. He had a Vial in play w 2 counters on it and I didn't board in Pact since I was sure he had Null Rod. Turns out that playing it safe won me the game. After I Graopshotted him for 10000,0000,0,0,0 damage he told me that he wanted me 2 kill his Teeg so bad and showed me the other in his hand. So had I gone for a turn 3 meditate pile of: Meditate, Pact, Rit, Rit, Tendrils I would have flat out lost the game. This is why I so much appreciate having the option of Helmshot ... while a cute trick, it is ridiculously effective and flat out wins games.

The second Gaddock wouldn´t have done anything or am I wrong? You could have played everything in your pile except for Tendrils. When you´re playing Pact at the very last moment, Gaddock is gone, you´ll have priority again and can cast ToA without him having a chance to respond.
Nonetheless, I guess Helm is a great option to think about. I just can´t find any room to add it in my list... but it´s great to see it working out that good for you. Congratulations!

[Pulp_Fiction]

@kicks: I always board out Emrakul against Zoo. Its just a very risky plan and I potentially could have lost the game had I done Emrakul with Teeg in play. I was at 14 life when I cast DD so it took me down to 7, then a hit from Teeg drags me to 5 and I know he had a Bolt + land in hand which drops me to 2 ... he has a 3 outer but still, the other plan was a guarnteed victory.

@DerFern: Yeah, I guess that is right, play Pact last and then Tendrils. Can he respond to Tendrils and Vial the other in to stop Tendrils or has it already been cast so it resolves, or does the first copy of Tendrils happen and Teeg stops the rest? I am not sure the order in how these things work.

Anytime you make the play of DDGO it is risky. Against a standard deck though on turn 1 I am really not to concerned with what he is going 2 do and for that fact, even if he draws Duress you also have to consider he has not idea what I am about to do. This is one of the greatest things DD has going for it, so few people can even play it right and the ones who haven't ever tried really have no idea what to do. When I play this deck there are certain times where I like going balls-out and other times I play conservative. But against standard players with standard decks ... I'm not worried in the least.

[DerFern]

Can he respond to Tendrils and Vial the other in to stop Tendrils or has it already been cast so it resolves, or does the first copy of Tendrils happen and Teeg stops the rest? I am not sure the order in how these things work.
It works out like this: you play Pact and if it resolves Gaddock is gone. Then you have priority again, since you are the active player. You cast ToA and at the time you cast it, Storm will trigger (copy this for each spell played before it each turn). Before the storm trigger resolves both of you have priority again. You would do nothing but your opponent can respond with whatever he thinks is cool. He could of course activate his Vial to get Teeg into play. Assume noone wants to do anything again before storm resolves, it will do so. Since storm copies the original spell and does not cast them, Gaddock Teeg won´t prevent it to create a whole lot of Tendrils...

Regarding the Standard BG Deck. I thought you meant a standard BG-Legacy-Deck (The Rock or whatever) and not a Standard (Type II)-Deck, so yeah... I guess it was right not to be afraid...

[ivanpei]

Ok I'm a very new doomsday player, so please be gentle. I run pulp fiction's MD with the following changes: - 1 helm, - 1 igg, + 1 ponder + 1 duress. I'm basically playing a "dumbed down" beginner's version of doomsday. I understand all the basic piles and can beat countertop consistently with this deck. This is the only storm combo deck I've played that has a positive MU against blue, thanks guys for working up such a beastly list. Anyway my question is: How important/useful are the additional tech like pass the turn iggy and helm-shot? Correct me if I'm wrong:

Pass the turn iggy- used when there is no cantrip or top in hand.
-IMO this is very risky and you just die to dudes against aggro. Shelldock emrakul does the same thing but is a turn slower. I find that this is only useful if you have to go for it the next turn and cannot sit around for 2 turns waiting for shelldock emrakul. IMO this is incredibly narrow and I prefer a "live card" like ponder/seize.
-To generate extra storm in you dday pile. I usually bypass this by just putting a top in my dday pile and swapping the tops around to generate storm with my extra mana.

Helm-shot-> Against gaddock teeg
This allows you to bypass gaddock by going infinite storm and burning wish into grapeshot. However, you need a buttload of mana because you have to chuck a 2nd top and a helm into the stack. Is this really useful MD?

SB questions:
I have the most basic wish sb-

Tendrils
Doomsday
Deathmark
Thoughtseize

4 Show and tell
3 Emrakul
2 LDV

2 Pyroblast

I like the show and tell plan post board because I can bypass teeq, cannonist and mindbreaktrap. Also I get to cut mana accel (LED) for live cards against blue control since I don't play the meditate plan anymore. Thoughts? I'm sure this has been done before.

[emidln]

If you are trying to learn the deck, I would highly suggest starting with this list:

4 Doomsday
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Ponder
3 Duress
3 Thoughtseize
4 Dark Ritual
3 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
1 Meditate
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony

4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Swamp

SB: 3 Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 Slaughter Pact
SB: 1 Shelldock Isle
SB: 1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
SB: 1 Wipe Away
SB: 1 Cloud of Faeries
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 4 Xantid Swarm
SB: 1 Ad Nauseam
SB: 2 Chrome Mox

The maindeck is straightforward. It generally kills with Infernal Tutor->Ill-Gotten Gains, Doomsday->Meditate or Doomsday->Brainstorm (most Doomsday piles involve Brainstorm or Meditate). It will usually win the turn it goes off, but it has a couple pass the turn piles available to it.

If you're losing after playing the default 2 mana pass the turn pile, you're probably doing it in games where you shouldn't (or your opponent happened to have a ton of burn). It's pretty rare for an opponent to be able to 9-10 you on turn 2.

Don't cut Meditate unless you include Ideas Unbound in the main. Do not play Ideas Unbound with a boatload of Cabal Rituals otherwise you'll notice a lot of scenarios where you have Doomsday, SDT, and BBBBBU available.

Helm isn't really necessary. It's better in a list with a ton of Crits, Tutors, and Wishes since you can get value out of it when not comboing, but the pass the turn pile in the face of Canonist is pretty hard to set up and extremely situational (you need like 3 lands in play and for them to have very little pressure). The other uses for Helm are much worse than just including Chain or Deathmark in your maindeck to stick inside piles (those piles are cheaper, and while they don't generate infinite storm, it's not like you need infinite storm very often (ever?)).

[ivanpei]

Thanks for the list. Iggy looks so much better when you're running infernals. I'll test it. On another note, why are people playing traditional ANT anymore? The deck seems strictly worse than Doomsday or TES. My thoughts on the various storm combo decks:

Belcher- Turn 1/2 Goldfish, ultimate glass cannon, but wrecks anything without blue/challice/trini
TES- Turn 2/3 Goldfish, still a very quick goldfish and can protect itself fairly well. IMO, colour base is slightly dubious and lack of top for handsculpting forces you to not be able to wait too long against blue or risk them drawing more counters.
Doomsday- Turn 3/4 Goldfish, rarely raced by aggro but aggro might get there sometimes. Protects itself very well and excellent at slow rolling blue. Can beat countertop consistently (only storm combo deck that can).
12 cantrip ANT- Turn 3/4 Goldfish, somewhere in between TES and Doomsday in long game power. Seems strictly inferior to Doomsday combo.

Thoughts? This are my own observations. I'm trying to decide what to play in what meta.

[emidln]

I wouldn't call ANT strictly inferior. There Is a lot to be said for not needing a Cantrip/Extra Turn/Graveyard to win the game with 5-7 mana. That's why you see AdN and 2 Chrome Mox in my sideboard.

Depending on what you see the most of, you could even switch my list to play Tundras and run Chant/Silence over Duress/Thoughtseize.

[ivanpei]

Agreed, but in testing, you don't always find the infernal/ant in time by turns 3/4 even with 12 cantrips. Even with 4 infernal/wish + 3/4 doomsday it's hard enough to find your "win" card, I find it challenging to play a combo deck that banks on finding 4 infernal + 1 ant while being in time to be relevant (life-wise). I just feel if the skill level/experience is there, doomsday seems like a much better deck. They both have the same speed vs aggro, but doomsday can easily power out a dday for shelldock pile and just win straight up vs counterbalance, challice, trini and all the crap that hate on storm. I find this advantage to be extremely potent.

[Piceli89]

I wouldn't call ANT strictly inferior. There Is a lot to be said for not needing a Cantrip/Extra Turn/Graveyard to win the game with 5-7 mana. That's why you see AdN and 2 Chrome Mox in my sideboard.

Depending on what you see the most of, you could even switch my list to play Tundras and run Chant/Silence over Duress/Thoughtseize.

That's exactly the point that drove me away from considering Doomsday the strongest engine. Once you play both ANT and DDFT and get the mechanic and the patterns behind each deck you understand how much casting an instant that draws you 20 cards and wins there 75% of the times is different from a sorcery that requires a cantrip and loses half of the time from tempo decks' Stifles and REBs on Meditate.
Or random Extirpates in response to the draw effect.
The only reason why I stick to DD is that there are no valid replacements in UB for Ad Nauseam Tendrils (baring LDV which I'm going to try), and I don't like Burning Wish.

I like your list, Emidln, even if it was me I would move AdN main and DD side.

[ivanpei]

I have no doubt ANT is the best engine with the fewest holes. But since the banning of mystical, nothing has come close enough to replacing it other than LDV. LDV-ing for a 1/2 off (ANT) is painful or trying to find infernal is a bit slow. Tutoring for a tutor is very inefficient. I don't doubt that doomsday gets messed up by more stuff than ANT but you get to run infernal/personal tutor/burning wish/LDV with 4 off doomsday. This brings your count of "win cards" to 7-9 and IMO that gives you much better consistency vs 5-6 in ANT. You can use cantrips to find other stuff you need and not be just digging for the "win". That's just my opinion though. I don't think going into an ANT vs Doomsday war is appropriate. Ok so what I've gotten so far:

ANT- More robust, harder to hate. Not as good at sitting and waiting. Forced to dig for low number of "win cards". Simple to play.
Doomsday- More fragile vs random things. Can sit and wait better vs blue. Runs more "win" cards. Can dodge hate by going shelldock-emrakul. Hard to play, mistakes are costly.

[Dark Ritual]

I can't advocate chant effects in doomsday highly enough right now. Sometimes, you need chant to achieve lethal storm. There is hardly any countertop decks in the meta right now so switching seize and duress for chants and silences has no drawback. I'm also paranoid of doing some pile of doomsday that relies on you executing it that turn only to have SDT stifled. Or tendrils getting stifled = GG's. So silence/chant effects just bypass all that stuff other than FoW quite nicely and as a bonus you can use IGG in your pile then yay.

For helm into wish into grapeshot. It can be randomly really awesome against Teeg or at other times when top gives you 'crap' as reported by pulp_fiction he topped and saw top, tendrils, and emrakul. With helm in play. So yeah that's awesome. And having access to R: get a sorcery card in your SB can be awesome. But sometimes it is very much winmore. It comes down to personal preference/playstyle I guess.

[Bahamuth]

When do you board in the AdN and the Emrakul package emidln?

[emidln]

AdN comes in against discard (where I want more threats) and tempo decks (TA, Thresh, etc where I'm probably using my cantrips for somethign other than setting up Doomsday (although I certainly keep most Doomsdays in).

Emrakul comes in whenever I think I can get away with it (i.e. they don't have Wasteland and I don't expect needle) or when I think forcing them to have the answer is better than waiting for the game to develop more. Not all parts of the Emrakul package come in all the time, but I wanted the package to be flexible enough that I could side it in against a deck with wastes and lock pieces. Cloud of Faeries lets you sub it for IGG for times when casting IGG after losing some life is a poor decision (really fast Zoo/Sligh decks).

[Pulp_Fiction]

Time to resurrect this thread. God damn, I am too drunk to post anyhnbhig relevant but ... top anyone who has anything to say, post that shit!!!! I can post my newest liust but i am too drunk to. please dont give me another wearning cause I have4 already had like 4 but .. just trying to get some discussoin goinbg on a hgood deck. FTW!

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Here's some relevance:

My current list:

4x Brainstorm
4x SDT

1x Wipe Away
1x Duress
1x Daze
2x Spell Pierce
1x Silence
3x Orim's Chant

1x Lotus Petal
2x Helm of Awakening
2x Cabal Ritual
4x Dark Ritual
4x LED

1x Ideas Unbound
1x Meditate
1x Lim-Dul's Vault
1x Cunning Wish
3x Doomsday
4x Infernal Tutor

1x Ill-Gotten Gains
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Brain Freeze

1x Plains
1x Swamp
2x Island
1x Tropical Island
1x Scrubland
1x Tundra
1x Underground Sea
1x Marsh Flats
3x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta

SB:
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3x Xantid Swarm
1x Slaughter Pact
1x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Rebuild
1x Rushing River
2x Krosan Grip
3x Duress
1x Shelldock Isle
1x Bayou

That's my most recent list, testing out a single Cunning Wish as opposed to a second LDV. I don't think it's going to pan out, so in the end I'm guessing -1 Wish, +1 LDV.

--ABC

[Jodahae]

Hi everyone, sorry to necro the thread but I really was hoping to get some new input on the deck. I feel like its a strong deck to play in the current legacy environment. Counterbalance has all but disappeared in my local meta and the SCG series seems to be shifting between several tempo decks. Anyway I figured I would post my current 60 and see what everyone is playing. Im splashing red for the wish board.

Right now my testing includes swapping CoF for Twiddle, although you lose to edict effects if you go all in on emrakul more often you get the versatility of tapping down a single attacker, often a goyf or stalker from team America, or forcing a wasteland activation on the end step before i go for a kill.

Lands
4 x Polluted Delta
3 x Underground Sea
2 x Scalding Tarn
2 x Volcanic Island
1 x Badlands
1 x Swamp
1 x Island
1 x Shelldock Isle

Creatures
1 x Cloud of Fairies
1 x Emrakul

Spells
4 x Brainstorm
4 x Ponder
4 x Top
4 x Dark Ritual
2 x Cabal Ritual
2 x Lotus Petal
4 x Lion's Eye Diamond
4 x Doomsday
3 x Infernal Tutor
3 x Burning Wish
3 x Duress
3 x Thoughtseize
1 x Meditate
1 x Ill Gotten Gains
1 x Tendrils of Agony

[Nemavera]

In Germany DDFT ist DtB :)

I had several Top8's with this list:


Maindeck:
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Doomsday
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual
1 Rain of Filth
1 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Chain of Vapor
4 Orim's Chant
3 Duress
1 Meditate
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony

4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Island

Sideboard:
4 Xantid Swarm
3 Carpet of Flowers
1 Reverent Silence
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rebuild
1 Echoing Truth
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Wipe Away
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Shelldock Isle
1 Emrakul, the Aeons torn

The list is a blast to play and it's incredibly strong against Tempodecks and Counterbalance. I'm 11-0-4 against Tempodecks, 2-0 against Dreadstill und 5-1 against Counterbalance. On stormboards, flrn posted some sideboard techniques and if you have any question regarding the list, feel free to ask.
Emrakul is not needed maindeck, it's enought to win against Counterbalance 2-1 ;)
Chain of Vapor maindeck is due to many G/W decs playing Green Sun's Zenith and Gaddock Teeg maindeck :)

[Pulp_Fiction]

In the interest of getting some more discussion going I took DDFT to my local tournament tonight and made it to a top 4 split out of about 18-24 people. I don't mean to clog up the thread with decklists but since mine is quite different I really need to post it. i will give a brief description of the matchups and some things I feel are right and wrong w the deck. For now, here is the list and a short report:

4x Top
3x Duress
4x Dark Ritual
3x Cabal Ritual
4x Petal
4x LED
4x Burning Wish
4x Brainstorm
2x Infernal Tutor
3x Doomsday
3x Thoughtseize
1x IGG
1x Meditate
1x Emrakul
1x Tendrils
1x Ponder

3x Bloodstained Mire
4x Polluted Delta
1x Scalded Tarn (should be 2 but I only have 1)
1x Flooded Strand (should be Tarn)
2x Underground Sea
1x City of Brass
1x Badlands
1x Volcanic Island
1x Swamp
1x Island
1x Shelldock Isle

SB
1x Tendrils
1x EtW
1x Doomsday
1x Deathmark
1x Meltdown
1x Eye of Nowhere

2x Wipe Away
2x Echoing Truth
1x Sad Sac
1x Thoughtseize
1x Rebuild
1x Chain of Vapor
1x Slaughter Pact

Round 1 - Standard R/B Stuff
g1: Mull to six and IGG loop on turn like 5-6. Deck tried to make me lose but I had ample to time draw something relevant.
g2: Turn 3 Meditate pile of: Meditate, Petal, LED, LED, Burning Wish.

Round 2 - Dragon Stompy
g1: Turn 1 Chalice @1, turn 2 Chalice @2 and I scoop when I realize hardcasting DD into Emrakul will take my life to low and Slogger would kill me, so I scoop em up and don't show any cards but lands.
g2: Once again he get Chalice out @1 and 2 on turns 1 and 2 but i have Rebuild in my hand. On turn 4 I Meditate at the end of his turn and find nothing relevant but Top and a shit ton of accel. I untap, draw, play a land, and pass the turn. He drop me to 6 and I EOT Rebuild all his shit. I play out Top and look and I find the win, top 3 reveals: Top, Wish, land. I have enough mana to build storm to like 6 and then I just switched Tops around till the storm was lethal and BW for Tendrils ends it.
g3: He goes turn 1 Magus. I go turn 1 Empty for 10 with my handy Mountain that I was missing ... he loses in short order.

Round 3 - Recruiter Aluren
g1: We both keep good hands but his is better. Turn 3 Aluren + Recruiter is good I hear.
g2: We both mull to six and tear each other's hands apart. My hand ends up being: Petal, LED, DD with Top in play and 3 lands also in play. I play them all and build: Meditate, Petal, LED, LED, Burning Wish.
3: He mulls to 5 and I stall on 1 land but: Dark Rit, Dark Rit, DD, Top, LED, and Thoughtseize don't care about my land count and another standard Meditate pile takes him down. He was never really in the game, mulled to 5 and kept 4x lands and Intuition ... luck is such a huge factor in the game.

Round 4 - W/g/b Death and Taxes
g1: Turn 3 DDGO while I hold LED, LED, LED in my hand and have 3 lands in play. Pile is: Brainstorm, IT,Petal, IGG, Tendrils. fucked this pile up, It should have had a SDT in space of the Petal, I was just worried about weird land shenenigans I watched him do in previous games and overthought the situation. I still won because he didn't have StP in his hand but still ... this is unacceptable.
g2: We both mull and he Thoughtseizes me. I respond w Duress and go into the think tank with a hand like this: IGG, LED, Dark Rit, land, Brainstorm and I have a land in play. I decide to hold off on the Brainstorm and give it another draw. I draw yet another land and pass. EOT Brainstorm reveals nothing and I fetch to shuffle. He played the dude that fetches equipment and gets Jitte so I need to get some shit going before he draws a Trap or gets counters to start gaining life. The deck finally gives me some love and I rip IT off the top ..... finally. I play: land, Dark Rit, IT revealing LED, Dark Rit, LED, LED, IGG, stack IGG and bring back LED, LED, IT, play them all and break LEDs for RRRBBB and go get BW for the lethal tendrils. High threat density FTW!

Overall I loved the main and you may notice that I did not once use Emrakul. Its ok, I really like having it there. Randomly my meta gets flooded with CB and it gives me free turn 1 wins against Zoo and shit. It also helps mulligans a ton so I will keep Emrakul in the main. Now my wishboard .... I was wanting IT SOOOOo bad. I rarely ever wished for it but recently I have been wanting it more and more. I will most likely cut Sad Sac and but IT on the wishboard. I will also cut ETruth and put the second Rebuild in. I forgot how much I loved this card. It cycles into a DD pile and gets around Chalice @2 which I have been seeing a LOT lately. Thoughts?

[Jodahae]

@Pulp_Fiction Nice deck list and finish. I saw your City of Brass, is this ever a liability for the life loss, I would be worried about dropping to a burnable range from zoo, Are you activating it enough times that Gemstone Mine wouldnt be a suitable replacement?

Also I really like having Emrakul in the main. It allows you to win/window of opportunity against new/sloppy high tide players i.e (not solidarity, but spiral variants). I often just consider it my legacy tinker bot, its there if i need it but I am happy winning without it.

Really like the wish board, and you showed that the ability to drop goblins from the board can really wreck someones day.

I was wondering how having so many lotus petals was working for you, versus more ponders to cantrip through the deck. Since you rarely need more than 1 for piles?

Thanks for your thoughts, and again congrats on bringing out the deck to give us a little info.

[Pulp_Fiction]

TY sir :) I PM a couple people on this site about DDFT and most genuinely hate City. Here is why I have it in there as a 1-2 of, it greatly helps mulligans. When I mull to 5 or 6 I want to see the card because I know that my mana is set at this point and whatever I need it will be there. Now I feel playing 2 is crucial towards a 4c manabase but it is certainly less necessary in the 3c builds. But still playing 2 bacis lands and your most common win card costs BBB .... I just like having it. You manabase is entirely up 2 u. In the first post emidln talks about how adaptable the deck is, and once you play it and understand how it works, start to modify it. Just goldfish the hell out of any list you want, and if you don't find yourself ever wanting a City of Brass, just replace it with a fetch or another Sea. This is all personal preference. I have only had 1 tournament match where tapping CoB mattered but ... it was a factor. I won the match anyway but ... having 1 less land in play is important. In short, play whatever manabase you feel comfortable playing. Does City of Brass have to be there ... no. I like it, but it is all preference, if you feel more comfortable with more fetches or Seas, play them instead. But I just love the idea of City of Brass in a 3c Deck that only plays 17 lands, 3 of which only add 1 color. When I play TES I play City over Gemstone. I hate Gemstone Mine, especially in a deck that runs Top. Mine is a total liability in this deck since it dies after 3 uses. Fetches/additional lands are better.

I have tried the builds that run 1-2 Petals and I just don't like them. 9-10 cantrips effects feels like enough. I really like the balance that playing this kind of acceleration backed with this level of threat density brings. Petals are in constant flux on the stormboards. Some people really like playing one and some love 2-4. Really just depends on playstyle. I like playing 4 when running Burning Wish since it allows the turn 1-2 Empty against a lot of decks. Burning Wish is the reason I still play combo, because of the versatility it adds to the deck. When your opponent mulls trying to find their hate cards, cards like EtW punish them. Because when you play Burning Wish, not only do you have additional answer cards, but additional threats. Against someone who mulls to 5 trying to find Leyline on Sanctity, 10-14 goblin tokens will cripple them. It is good to always know your outs and DDFT totally enables those outs, its just really tough to see them sometimes when there is an opponent in front of you doing things. BW combined with SI/Emrakul enables a storm deck to do totally insane things. The hard part is recognizing all of these options and choosing the one which will hurt the opponent the most.

[Lejay]

I also won 2 byes for the BOM with DD by winning a 40 players event last week end. Another different list. xD

1 Badlands
1 Mountain
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Island
2 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Cabal Ritual
1 Rain of Filth
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
1 Ideas Unbound
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
3 Doomsday
3 Duress
3 Thoughtseize
4 Burning Wish
4 Ponder
SB: 1 Shelldock Isle
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Pulverize
SB: 1 Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 Infernal Contract
SB: 1 Grapeshot
SB: 1 Wipe Away
SB: 1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
SB: 1 Chain of Vapor
SB: 2 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Ideas Unbound
SB: 1 Doomsday
SB: 1 Duress


The "problem" with DD is that the engine and the core is so powerful that you have trouble finding the best version of the deck.

Tournament wasn't too difficult. Only decks with fows I faced were 2x show&tell/sneak attack, 2x hive mind and 1 CAB Jace. The Cab Jace had no cunning wish though and therefore ran a lot of cards against combo, but since he missplayed badly I 2-0'ed him in spite of topdecks.
My only loss in the rounds was against a Maverick because I missplayed during an improvised pile game 2. Game 3 He has canonist + MoR. I play a thoughtseize removing a kotr, the turn after I wish for pulverize ftw but he topdecks gaddock teeg.
I didn't ID.

This list was built to evolve in a non counterbalance meta, that's why I cut dazes and added petals, putting emrakul in the sb. The mana base is very good against tempo decks. I am impressed by Nemavera's results in tournaments against tempo with such a mana base, this may be time for me to switch back to green sideboard. However my results have always been incredibly better in tournaments than when testing against myself with Doomsday.

I really killed quite often with empty the warrens so I wouldn't play burning wish without 4 petals now.

Grapeshot was the good surprise when I tested helm shot again (helm of awakening being dismissed pretty quickly as usual when I test it again). Especially with 4 petals. It is not strictly better than deathmark, pyroclasm or virtue's ruin but all in all I feel it is the best choice in this version, and it won me a game in the tournament, several in testing.

[blaat]

Can anyone comment about the following?
I know Doomsday makes everything in this list so complex because of all the possibilities :)

What are the exact important pros/cons about the builds with discard (TS, Duress) and the builds with Silence/chant that I miss?
Do you play both? (SB wise)

Silence/chant
++ Counter this, or lose (win or bluf with open mana).
+ 2for1 against FOW, where discard is 1for1.
+ Can buy turns.
+ Silence still works versus leyline of shroud.
+ IGG has no drawback.
- Can't deal with hate cards (unless you buy the specific turns they can play them, before you go off).
- They choose their counterspell (if: multiples).

Discard
++ Can deal with every non-creature;non-land card.
+ TS can deal with hate-bears.
+ Let's you see their gameplan / hand info (play around possible hate).
+ Let's _you_ pick the counterspell (if: multiples) (pick fow, play around daze/others f.e.)
- versus multiple non-counter hate-cards, silence/chant wins you the game where discard needs more discard, unless you can play around it.
- Dead versus leyline of shroud.
- IGG gives them back counterspells etc.

And probably hundreds more.

[flrn]

Quoting myself from stormboards.



Why the 3 Duress 4 Orim's Chant?

Typically I've noticed that Duress is better than Chant, but maybe you have different reasons?

We're splashing White just to play Chant. Naturally there are very good reasons why Chant is way better than Duress. Duress is good against Archetypes like Merfolk, which are light on counters. They don't have any way to manipulate their library, so they mostly don't have that much stuff going on in their hand. It's easy to play Duress and predict what their gonna do in the next turns.

Against any deck playing SDT and Brainstorm's, Chant is better than Duress. They have ways to manipulate the top cards of their library and Duress can't attack topdecks. And that's where Chant shines. Duress can't protect you from the Force, which is lying on top of their library with a SDT in play and several blue cards in hand. Chant can.

Chant is also way better in the tempo matchup, which plays a lot of coniditional counters, along with several ways to manipulate the library. Just imagine you play Duress against Canadian and you see a hand consisting off two Spell Snare's, Stifle, Daze and Brainstorm. What do you take and how do you win? This is a scenario that actually happens quite often. When you play Chant in this scenario, all your opponent can do is to brainstorm in hope he finds a Force of Will for your Chant. If he doesn't find it he is dead. And that's why Chant makes Cardadvantage in the tempo matchup, where Duress only trades one card for another. That's why Chant is that strong. And that's why we splash white just to play Chant.

Chant just has me won so many games, where Duress wouldn't have done shit. I don't know what's going on at your local meta, but around here a lot of people are playing Canadian and Tempo Bant. Without Chant's I wouldn't have a 50/50 matchup against that archetype. They would eat me all day. Chant is our key card in those matchup's. Also Chant can buy you a turn against aggrodecks, if you play it with the kicker cost. You can chantwalk an opponent in his second turn, if you expect him to drop a hatebear on turn 2. That's stuff that Duress can't do. Naturally you need to be good at predicting what your opponent might/can do to fuck you up. Nemavera even considered going down to one Duress, just to play more Chant effects. But in the end the split as you see it in the list posted on the previous page made it, since Duress gives us information's. That's a thing Chant can't do.

[Lejay]

Since I was surprised by Nemavera's results against tempo decks with 4 colors and one basic, I tested the german list today against tempo bant. List looks like this :

4 knight of the reliquary
4 tarmogoyf
4 noble hierarch
1 vendilion clique
2 jace the mind sculptor
4 swords to plowshares
4 force of will
4 daze
4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 stifle
4 tropical island
3 tundra
4 misty rainforest
3 windsweapt heath
1 island
1 forest
4 wasteland
1 maze of ith
Sb
4 natural order
1 progenitus
1 dryad arbor
3 spell pierce
3 engineered explosives
1 jace the mind sculptor
1 vendilion clique
1 karakas

Against a good player who won a 49 players event with the deck the day before I won mine.
I've gone 1-5. Won the first game because he mulled to 5 and post side I played an answered swarm which gave me the game. I then lost all the matches winning only one or 2 games. Granted i was playing against a good player who knows a bit how doomsday works, and knight of the reliquary fetching wastelands is probably an additional issue, but this was so much one sided that after 6 games there really were no reasons to continue testing.
I too have much better results in tournaments against tempo and counterbalance than when I test against myself. But in a big tournament, where after several wins you will face tough opponents, you really can't hope to win tempo decks with only one basic land.
I suggest you to play with a better mana base. Counterbalance being pretty absent of all metagames currently you really only need to win against tempo.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Honestly. I am curious. After all of these posts and all the debates about TES VS DD and all that shit. What to people really want 2 know about DD??? Its tough to play ... ok. But ... and this is a bit BUT, have u read all of the stuff emidln has written ebout the deck and still we debate about pointless shit like protection spells. People play whatever suits their metagame ... thats it, in some Chants are better, sometimes 6-7 duress effects are better, but seriously, what stops people from playing the deck. You have the google stack piles ... and i have no problem posting this but do most people want a hand analysis, showing what competent pilots keep when they play this deck? Really; there is no card discission or nothing, would it be beneficial to shuffle up my bui;d and post 7 random hands and post the shit i would keep and mull? And then after that discuss why? Because I realize this is simply th most diffucult deck to pilot in the current meta but whaty do people need to see in order to play it right?

[Lejay]

Lazyness. People play legacy to have fun not work on piles.^^

Note : I had to post to be able to see your post, don't know why.

[addaro]

Lazyness. People play legacy to have fun not work on piles.^^

QFT! I know all the piles, think I can play the deck properly, but our big tourneys are usually 3-4 hours drive away and we want to have some beers with friends ... other decks suit this "fun factor" better. You can do whatever, sample hands and stuff, but people will still get scared to do whole tourney with this deck.

Hope my english is clear, that you understand my thoughts.

[Occam]

It's really not hard to see why this deck is underplayed. Without going into whether it is or isn't better than TES, it's disproportionately harder to play, and requires more dedication to learning it inside out than any other combo deck in legacy. Probably more than any other legacy deck, period. The piles aren't the only issue either -- Doomsday is just one of the cards that requires playskill. Top, BS and even discard are all skill intensive, and DDFT requires a more directed setup than other combo decks. With AdN, you can autopilot into a drit, drit, AdN and win. With DDFT, you need to sculpt a hand + board (sdt, rain of filth requirements etc) that wins with a given pile, while being versatile enough to be able to switch piles according to any situation. Memorising piles is tough without an innate understanding of the deck and a lot of practice -- you can memorise the standard piles, but the measure of any DDFT player is how you play through hate, and the various anti-hate piles all add up to a lot of memory work that can prove impossible for someone who isn't dedicated to playing the deck.

It's also a lot harder to provide scenario analyses for this deck than with AdN-centric decks, because the deck is a full turn slower with regards to its combo fundamental turn and has enough cantrips such that typical hands that are kept are unlikely to look the same after 2-3 turns when you finally go off. The hands which are easier to analyse and walk others through on (say, 2 x land, sdt, drit, dd, bs, duress) don't provide enough value because the difficulty entailed by this deck isn't when you get good hands like the above (t2 goldfish, t3 protected kill), but when you get mediocre hands or when you play a pseudo-reactionary game to your opponent. Hands that are cantrip/wish heavy are likely better for attritional games where good pilots are separated from the mediocre ones, but those are harder to walk through. I guess someone could do videos for the deck like what the UWT people did for that deck, but the learning curve is still going to turn a lot of people off. Not to mention that a Team America/tempo centric meta is terrible for traditional DDFT builds. You could adjust to be better against tempo, but it still isn't a good matchup when you're against TA/CT/NLT. New Horizons is the most winnable, but it's under the radar right now.

Long story short, even if it were better than TES (debatable, although DDFT has some very distinct strengths), it's often not going to be worth it for someone to put the effort in to play the deck optimally, when the investments needed to play ANT or TES are much lower without much (if any) tradeoff in the deck's power level and standing in the current meta.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Hmmm, I never really thought it would be laziness cause I just assumed most people take the time to learn a deck but ... yeah, makes sense. No other deck in the format requires you to read articles just to learn how to win. I always considered the stuff you are talking about fun though ... I must be a masochist.

[Namida]

I don't know about everyone else, but the things I have the most difficulty with are the opening hands, so an analysis on opening hands would be amazing. This may come off as stupid, but I've personally been trying for ages to figure this deck out. I started off playing the Pact Version of Spanish Inquisition, and Vacrix's primer was a gigantic help specifically because he explains the basics of the deck very well, including how to evaluate opening hands--however, I'm not used to playing anything safer than a glass cannon, so I don't know how to evaluate the opening hands of decks that don't need to win on turn one. Maybe I just won't ever get it, but I've been trying. I have read literally everything on the Storm Boards, the Source, and even the old psuedo-primer on MTGSalvation. Some of the posts are helpful, but there are a lot of things that are still difficult to understand. For instance, a lot of the documents on DD piles just tell you which cards you get, but nothing about how you use them to win--as a result, there are piles that I'm understanding, but the basic "Pass the turn" pile still confuses me. At the same time, because most of the posts seem to be aimed at people with some experience, I've seen more than a few replies along the lines of "You should just give it up if you need someone to help you with such a simple part of this complex deck," which makes me hesitant to post questions that would give me away as not knowing what the hell I'm doing.

[Occam]

The basic pass the turn requirements are these cards: bs, led x 2, igg, sdt, ToA. You will need to have one of those cards in your hand, except for ToA for this pile to work. ToA in hand is a win as well, but the mechanics are slightly different from the ones I am going through below.

BS
SDT
LED
LED
IGG
ToA/Wish

After you draw on t2, you will have 2 of these cards in your hand, one of which is bs. You bs, and place IGG on top of the library, and then top into IGG, cracking the LEDs while retaining priority. You loop LED x 2 and bs (3 cards in library), and crack to win through ToA or Wish -> ToA.

Say you have SDT in hand:

Draw BS.
Cast BS, draw LED, LED, IGG (1 storm, U expended), placing IGG + another non-combo card from hand in that order on library.
Play 2 x LED (3 storm)
Play SDT (1U expended, 4 storm)
Top into IGG, crack LEDs, cast IGG (BU floating, 5 storm)
Play LEDs (7storm, 2 mana floating)
From here, if you play wish, you cast bs into Wish -> ToA, 10 storm total.
If you don't you cast BS into sdt, cracking LEDs (8storm, 7 mana floating), cast sdt (9 storm, 6 mana floating), rearrange -> top into tendrils (10 storm)

In total, 1U for lethal.

If you have another card besides sdt, remove that card from the pile and shift everything upwards. If you have ToA, you draw bs, bs into sdt + 2 x led while returning toa to the library, crack leds when you cast sdt, rearrange to get IGG, cast IGG with 1 mana floating, bs + leds into sdt -> tendrils.

There are other piles involving Wish being active, but this is the generic pass the turn pile for t2 wins.

[Namida]

Thank you, that's actually a great help.

[imRauSch]

Honestly. I am curious. After all of these posts and all the debates about TES VS DD and all that shit. What to people really want 2 know about DD??? Its tough to play ... ok. But ... and this is a bit BUT, have u read all of the stuff emidln has written ebout the deck and still we debate about pointless shit like protection spells. People play whatever suits their metagame ... thats it, in some Chants are better, sometimes 6-7 duress effects are better, but seriously, what stops people from playing the deck. You have the google stack piles ... and i have no problem posting this but do most people want a hand analysis, showing what competent pilots keep when they play this deck? Really; there is no card discission or nothing, would it be beneficial to shuffle up my bui;d and post 7 random hands and post the shit i would keep and mull? And then after that discuss why? Because I realize this is simply th most diffucult deck to pilot in the current meta but whaty do people need to see in order to play it right?
You answered it yourself. It's just the most complicated deck, by a clear margin. I really want to play it, but all the possible piles somewhat scare me (and certainly others as well) to learn it. I mean I play TES now for half a year and I still feel that I have to learn a lot. Just imaging to play a deck with even more decisions (and, therefore, ways to lose to yourself) really holds me back to even try it (although I'm a person that usually enjoys to cudgel one's brains).

As for me, I would certainly welcome a good discussion about starting hands. Even more if it would be in a match-up-related way e.g. why you would keep a certain hand against deck X, but not against Y.

[Rune]

I don't think we should kid ourselves and think that the only reason DDFT doesn't see more play is because it's too hard to play. Imo, DDFT also has its own share of problems that hold it back:

1) Generally an atrocious matchup vs blue tempo
2) Being a full turn slower than most AdN lists is sometimes a big disadvantage, because you give your opponent more time to play out their hate/annoying cards.
3) Being much more exposed to Extirpate and Stifle: Extirpate can be hard to beat when playing against a Hymn+Thoughtseize deck. Multiple Stifles can be tough since they will make your pile cost infinite mana, if you don't play Chant. Cards like these almost force you into playing with (suboptimal?) white cards. AdNaus (almost) never gives a damn about cards like Stifle and Extirpate.
4) Lastly, Doomsday is a card disadvantage, whereas AdN is card advantage. Probably very obvious, but I still think it's one of DD's inherent problems.

Anyway, AdNaus is not without its own problems, and there are times when DDFT is going to be the better deck... but for the most part, I'd say that AdN-fueled decks are still better, even though I think the ban on Mystical Tutor brought them a lot closer in power level.

By the way, check out this guy playing DDFT (video 5 & 6). Pretty entertaining, despite the occasional misplays. (http://www.mefeedia.com/feeds/247442/mattiasnl)

[emidln]

Against tezz affinity, goblins, no show, and forgemaster mud I averaged a turn 2.1 kill en route to a top 8 in a smal 40 person event. If ANT is a turn faster, I'd argue that your numbers for ant are false. I ran the german list. In seven matches I had four game losses with one being my direct fault, two mulls into oblivion, and a counterbalance player who didn't punt when I attempted to go off through his active counterbalance in g1. The ant player who faces the same mud list lost to a chalice that I ignored in g1 and somehow lost to no show.

The only reason the german list isn't adtb is lack of pilots.

[Occam]

No one is saying that DDFT's only weakness is its difficulty. The point is, though, that the deck's difficulty is extremely salient, and is the first and foremost thing to be considered when looking at this deck. The same way Lands and Aluren are looked at firstly for the high values of niche cards like Tabernacle and Recruiter before the actual decks are evaluated. If pilots, or potential pilots never get past the learning phase, the rest of the deck's evaluations are meaningless to them.If you don't learn how to drive, your right to be taken seriously when you discuss a car's performance is forfeit.

@Stifle: No problems agreeing here. Stifle is terrible for DDFT, but you can play through 1 stifle while going off with a decent amount of ease. Where stifle hurts DDFT when it goes off, it hurts TES when it sets up with fetches. The impact isn't as visible, but it certainly isn't negligible either. I'm not sure why DDFT is weak to extirpate, because aside from extirpate being terrible in today's meta without loam or survival to prey on, constructing piles that are extirpate-proof is easy. Additionally, it isn't as though TES isn't weak to tempo decks. Wastelands are a lot better against TES than they are against DDFT, spell snare is frequently a blow out against all-in plays while DDFT is potentially proof to spell snares. Team America's discard is a lot more relevant against TES, and so on. It's honestly hard to argue that TES is more resilient than DDFT, though, and I don't think it's worthwhile to try. TES' advantage lies in its speed and the ability to blow decks out of the water. DDFT's advantages lie in being versatile and relevant after the early game.

@ DD being card disadvantage, the only situation in which DD is actually card disadvantage is when you cast DD without any way to draw into it, because you either 1) draw into a CA spell, 2) accept the CDA because you are putting Emrakul into play, 3) accept the CDA because you are going to either bs or Wish for the win after DD resolves.

Doomsday shouldn't be looked at as a deck that seeks to goldfish quickly, although the 4c German lists talked about above are a lot more aggressive in that regard. Doomsday's advantages over AdN, besides the deck's resilience we spoke of, are that life totals are an independent resource for DD -- only the last 2 life points are of much consequence to the deck, and that DD has the same advantages that IGG has over AdN by being a sure kill without variance, but without the weakness to countermagic or the reliance on chant effects that IGG has.

PS: If it weren't already obvious, I'm not saying DD > TES. I'm saying that DD has distinct strengths and playstyle requirements that could suit certain metas and pilots more than TES. I don't believe for an instance that one is obviously better than the other, assuming both decks are played competently.

[Pulp_Fiction]

@namida: Never feel ashamed to ask questions about the deck, be encouraged, no one will chastise you or talk shit. Feel encouraged to post questions and scenarios. If you are ever goldfishing the list post the list and your hand/situation and we can tell you how to play out the hand.

@occam: Totally agree.

Ok, I am going to goldfish 3 hands with my list posted on the other page and tell what I would keep against what and try to point out the courses you can take. But take into consideration, this is strictly goldfishing going for the fastest kill, I can talk strategy against certain archetypes later but this is just to try and point out you available options, I may miss some but thats because DD has so many options you are able to adapt to the opponent, but I am just going for the fastest kill and I am always on the play.

Hand 1: DD, Island, Dark Ritual, Polluted Delta, Brainstorm, LED, Underground Sea.
I would keep this against basically anything, even Stax and Stompy since I have access to 2 basics. You have 3 options here: Turn 1 Emrakul, turn 3 Meditate stack, and turn 3 IGG stack.

Turn 1 Emrakul just goes like this: Sea - DRit - DD and you build the stack of: Shelldock Isle, Emrakul, Top, LED, Burning Wish OR if you don't need wish you just make: Isle, Emrakul, Duress, Dark Rit, DD or Tendrils. Playing this is self explanatory but with Wish you can kill them a turn earlier by Wishing for Tendrils and hitting them for 6 after swinging for 15.

Turn 3 Meditate stack goes like this: turn 1 Island go. Turn 2, draw a random card, in this case Top but what you draw is highly irrelevant. You play Delta and pass. Now since I drew Top that turn I can flat out win on the spot here and it will be with the same pile but lets assume I drew a land. Turn 3 draw an Underground Sea. Fetch out Badlands. Tap Sea for B and play Dark Rit (1), DD (2) and build a pile of: Meditate, Petal, LED, LED, Burning Wish. Assuming I didn't draw Top which is +1 storm lets just plat it like I drew a land. Play LED (3), tap Island to play Brainstorm (4), maintain priority and blow up LED for UUU. Draw Meditate and cast it (5). Draw Petal, LED, LED, Burning Wish. Play Petal (6), LED (7), LED (8) blow up Petal for R and tap Badlands to play Burning Wish (9), maintain priority and blow up LEDs for BBBBBB and get Tendrils (10).

Turn 3 IGG stack goes like this: turn 1 Island go. Turn 2 draw a random card, play Delta and say go. Turn 3 draw random card, lets say another land, the reason I am doing this is to show you how to combo off with the bare minimum essentials cause it pretty easy when you keep drawing LEDs and Petals and shit. Play Sea, fetch another Sea, play Dark Rit (1), Doomsday (2) and build this pile: Top, LED, LED, IGG, Tendrils. Tap island to play Brainstorm (3), draw Top, LED, LED, and put back the 2 random cards you drew on top. Play Top (4) tapping Sea, play LED (5), LED (6). Blow up both LEDs for UUUBBB. Use a U mana and look with the Top and rearrange the top 3 cards of you library, the third one down is IGG and put that on top. Draw with Top and Play IGG (7) using BBBU so you have U floating. Bring back LED, LED, Brainstorm. Use the U floating to cast LED (8), LED (9), and Brainstorm (10), maintain priority and blow up but LEDs for BBBBBB. Draw Top and play it (11), look at the top 3 ad rearrange them so Tendriuls is on top, activate the Top and draw Tendrils (12).

I have to switch computers but I will be back on in a second.

[lorddotm]

I have two main reasons I play TES over DDFT.

1) I really really like Ad Nauseam. I have won so many games that I just have no business winning with that card. I used to run a version of PF's DDANT deck, and I really liked that, but I don't think that giving up Ad Nauseam for Doomsday is a good call.

2) I only have 2 Korean Doomsdays. Not much else to say here.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Hand 2: Shelldock, Duress, Thoughtseize, BW, Tendrils, Top, IT. Mull. 6 cards: BW, BW, Petal, Cabal Rit, Duress, Sea …. iffy but I would probably keep this against most decks, especially CB, certainly not Stax though.

Turn 1 Sea, Duress. Turn 2, draw Brainstorm, cast Brainstorm and look at: Top, Cabal Rit, Sea. Put back BW and Cabal Rit. Play the Sea and Top and pass the turn. NOW, you do have the option of a turn 3 Emrakul stack. Against control decks this would be very simple and it plays like this: play Petal, Burning Wish for DD, and pass the turn. Draw Cabal Rit and tap both lands to play CRit, CRit, Doomsday and build this pile:
Duress, Shelldock, Emrakul, Dark Rit, Tendrils/Doomsday depending on their life. Play Top and activate it to draw Duress and Duress them right there if you suspect Stifle or you can just put Shelldock on Top and draw it with your Top and hideaway Emrakul for the turn 3 Shelldock, turn 4 Emrakul, and honestly, this is good against most decks.

Or you can continue on with your hand like this: Burning Wish, Cabal Rit, Petal. Top in play and Cabal Rit, and BW on Top. Turn 3 Draw CRit and look with the Top to see: Burning Wish, Meditate, Top …. This sucks. Put the other Top back on top and play Petal, and Burning Wish for DD and pass the turn. Turn 4 Draw Top and play it and look at the top 3 again seeing: Meditate, land, Burning Wish …. Put the land on top and pass turn. Turn 5 you draw the land and can Tendrils for lethal, given it’s a bit late in the game but … mull to 6 with disruption with the turn 3 Emrakul play .. very versatile. I would most likely gone for the Emrakul play but if you want to Tendrils here this is what you do, fetch a land and play CRit (1), CRit (2), keeping a Sea open, DD (3) and you have 2 Tops in play, B floating from the CRits and a Sea open. You build this pile: LED, Meditate, LED, Dark Rit, Tendrils. Activate one of the Tops to draw LED, play it (4), use the B floating to look at the top 3 and put Meditate on top. Blow up LED for UUU, activate Top to draw Meditate and play it (5) drawing Top, Top, Dark Rit, LED. With tap your last Sea and play Dark Rit (6), Top (7), Top (8), LED (9) blow up LED for BBB and activate Top to draw Tendrils.

I am quite glad something weird like this came up. This hand is an anomaly but … it happens, has either CRit been Rituals I would have won sooner, and if I had LED it would have been a LOT faster. But, you do what you can with what the deck gives you, and I hope describing card selection with Top and BS helps. But really, any acceleration spell would have made things go much faster, oh well, sometimes the deck acts up, but unlike TES, I have never really felt stranded with no way out, there is always an out somewhere you just have to look hard enough to find it. This may seem very slow … and it was, but even when the decks just keeps giving you shit, you will find a way to win.

Hand 3, hopefully this will be easier: Top, Petal, Brainstorm, Bloodstained Mire, Dark Ritual, Polluted Delta, Duress. Yes, much better, these are the hands I like cause this is 100% good against the field. Turn 1, bloodstained Mire fetches Sea and Duress. I want to fetch a Sea here because I HOPE they Wasteland me and set themselves back a turn cause I am on the ball here with mana, unless it is Stax/Stompy in which case you get a swamp. Turn 2 draw Burning Wish. You have a couple options here, you can either Burning Wish for DD right here and play your cantrips next turn for basically a guaranteed turn 4 win or you can cantrip now and hope to find acceleration for the turn 3 win. I would play it like this: fetch Badlands, Burning Wish for DD, and pass the turn. NOW, you have the option of a Doomsday go pile with IGG on turn 3 depending on what you are playing against. By just going Dark Rit, Petal, Burning Wish, Doomsday go you would have the following pile: LED, LED, IGG, Tendrils, Top (there is a lot of different variations of this you can use but I like this one. This is an auto-win against most aggro and you can absolutely do this game 1 everytime. It plays out like the IGG pile I talked about in hand 1. But I will go through the motions anyway: 2 lands in play and Brainstorm and Top in hand. Draw LED, tap Badlands and play Top (1), tap Sea and play Brainstorm (2) drawing LED, IGG, Tendrils, put back Tendrils and IGG on top. Play LED (3), LED (4) and blow them up for UUUBBB. Activate Top to draw IGG and play it (5) with UB floating bringing back LED, LED, Brainstorm. Play LED (6), LED (7), Brainstorm (8) and you will see Top, Tendrils, Top. Draw the first Top and put the second one above Tendrils. Play the Top with the B you have floating (9). Blow up both LEDs for BBBBBB and activate the first top to draw the second. Play the second Top (10), look at the top 2, put Tendrils back on top, then activate your Top to draw Tendrils (11). That is the pass the turn pile.

But if you can’t use IGG continue on. Turn 3 draw Cabal Rit. Play Brainstorm (1) and see: Sea, LED, Petal ……. Yep, that’s the nuts. Put back Sea and Cabal Rit and tap badlands for Dark Ritual (2), Petal (3), Petal (4), LED (5), Top (6), DD (7) and just build another Meditate stack: Meditate, LED, LED, Petal, Burning Wish and Tendrils for 28. Sometimes the deck goes nuts like that, but even without the LED you still win turn 4 with the same pile.

I hope this helps. The problem most people seem to have with the deck is that it is always changing, there is rarely a clear cut game plan, and as you are sculpting your hand you are always searching for what betters you hand, with no real clear cut plan in mind, just something that the opponent doesn’t want to see. The key is to not fixate on 1 simple plan, constantly adjust your plan with each new card you draw, don’t fixate on Meditate, IGG, EtW, or Emrakul, just adapt to what you opponent is doing at the time, weigh your options, and choose the best course of action.

And wow, this took me a lot longer than I thought it would!

[emidln]

Hand 1 kills turn 2 with turn 1 fetch->swamp, rit, dd, go building sdt, led, led, igg, tendrils.

[Pulp_Fiction]

TY sir. If anyome notices something I missed please let me know because that is one of the keys of the deck that are difficult to describe. Because the deck has so many options available it is nuts. I realized but I just became fixated on Emrakul which is a mistake. Now I truly understand why people can't play this deck, there are so many options and everything depends on what cards u draw and so forth .... and thus it continues, if u are a masochist, u play DDFT because u like thinking and a deck that will challenge your mind, clearly people who play CB and Merfolk don't want this challenge :)

[ivanpei]

I enjoy a good mental challenge when playing casually. But if you are talking about bringing doomsday to a SCG 5k with big money on the line or a Legacy GP I would think twice. Actually I would think trice. I had storm combo built for 2 years before I balled up and brought storm to a tournament. I agree 100% that Doomsday is not a DTB because of difficulty and a lack of pilots. Difficulty is also directly proportional to chances of punting. At the end of a tournament, in a T8, tired and hungry out of your mind, are you still mentally able to build the perfect pile?

Playing under no pressure, casually against buddies is not good training for this deck. The same applies to TES and other non-autopilot decks. When under pressure, punting is no joke and a deck that just dies when you make 1 mistake is not an ideal deck to bring to a tournament. But if you are and ex special forces commando with an IQ of 180, sure go ahead man. Help yourself. :)

[Pulp_Fiction]

I played against 3 Merfolk decks and 2 Reanimator last SCG .... I raped the reanimator and lost to Merfolk playing Chalice .... then i dropped and went to the bars. Shit happens and I would 100% be at this next SCG event but .... Wrestlemania is on the same day and u best believe I will be there cause The Rock and Stone Cold are back ... not an event to miss.

[Namida]

A) Thanks for the work on the opening hands. It really does help.

B) Rock *and* Steve Austin? No way. I haven't watched Wrestling for years, but I know they've been gone forever, man.

[imRauSch]

@Pulp_Fiction:
Thx a lot for the detailed description of those sample hands, I appreciate it. In fact, I built the basic DDFT list, as suggested by EmidIn from the previous page, and goldfished an hour yesterday. After understanding at least the basic piles, I grasped a little the power of the deck. SDT felt really awesome, it was exactly what I was missing in TES. I feel that this deck might actually be better positioned in the present meta, because the tempo decks, especially TA, are causing me a lot of trouble with TES.

[Eksem]

Why I don't play Doomsday, and why I just might do it this wednesday:

I am not a terribly sharp Magic player. In fact, i'm lousy. To win, I need decks that win by themselves or are forgiving to misplays and errors (let's say, AnT and NO Prog as examples of decks that I do well with). With a deck like this, I sometimes loose when goldfishing. I can barely play through hate with AnT, and with this deck I sometimes mess up even when uninterrupted. No matter how powerful and fun this deck is, I will probably fail hard with it, and I can tell that this is a very frustrating deck to loose with.

With that said, the deck looks really fun. I have all the cards for the "beginners" list posted a few pages back and I have been goldfishing it enough to being able put together most basic piles without looking at notes, and hopefully having enough grasp of the anatomy of piles to construct one mentally if I have to. I also have been spoiled by easy and forgiving decks, which really has hurt my Vintage-playing a lot (I am surprised at how sloppy i'm playing nowadays, I blame it all on that 10/10 protection-dude). I have to tighten up my game, and playing a powerful but punishing deck might be just what I need.

But i'll probably chicken out, and run Merfolk or something. We'll see.

[Occam]

@Pulp Fiction:

I would have played hand 3 differently. Duress t1 is often a suboptimal usage of protection, especially when you have top in hand.

Turn 1: Fetch, top
Turn 2: Fetch, BW, Doomsday. I would almost never go for a pass-the-turn pile here unless it was g1 against a deck that has no anti-combo cards whatsoever, because you'd only ever go for pass the turn piles t1 otp against aggro or when you know that a control deck has no countermagic currently but has a Jace that he can play in a turn or two, or a visions that resolves in a turn or two. Having a hand that can already win pretty easily and going for a dangerous pass the turn pile detracts from the deck's advantages. Right now, you have no idea what you will draw t3, but your board and hand will resemble something like:

Board: Two lands, top
Hand: DD, BS, Drit, Petal, Duress. With this hand/board, you'd never go for the pass-the-turn pile because this is highly likely to be a protected t3 pile, t4 latest if you expect multiple taxing effects. In fact, it may not even matter what card you actually draw.

Turn3: Draw crit. Not going to draw the whole pile out as I'm rushing for time, but you would go petal, duress (before going off, when it is most relevant), drit, crit, DD, leaving yourself with 5 storm, 1 land untapped + petal, with BS in hand. You pile LED/Meditate/Drit/Drit/Toa for lethal. You can even ignore the crit that you drew as you can always play it out the same way, without crit, and pile LED/LED/Med/Drit/ToA for the win.

I almost never use pass the turn piles as they basically end up snatching defeat from the jaws of victory at times. Good to have, but I rarely use them. Also, this is a pretty good illustration of why DDFT is tough to play. It isn't the actual pile. A lot of those are academic. Creating a hand/board that opens access to piles is the hardest part about the deck.

I don't think I misinterpreted board position as I was rushing -- going to feel pretty sheepish if that's the case.

[blaat]

I've seen a few lists and matches, but I can't find out why people don't play the untap effect (CoF) in the SI-Emrakul pile.
Is it just the dead card/SB space issue?
Are you more likely to use it as a pass-the-turn pile or get protection instead?

I've seen good results without CoF, but I can imagine there are some fair scenarios where you just loose because you need to pass the turn.

[OurSerratedDust]

I've seen a few lists and matches, but I can't find out why people don't play the untap effect (CoF) in the SI-Emrakul pile.
Is it just the dead card/SB space issue?
Are you more likely to use it as a pass-the-turn pile or get protection instead?

I've seen good results without CoF, but I can imagine there are some fair scenarios where you just loose because you need to pass the turn.

Cloud of Faeries can definitely be good sometimes, but I think the issue is that it can be countered. Against counterbalance decks, you can't reliably cast it (and they're usually so slow that you don't want to.) In the matchups that don't use permission, you COULD use it to cast emrakul, but why do that when you can win with Tendrils of Agony?

Cloud of Faeries is a lot better in a Doomsday deck with show and tell and no Tendrils plan.

[leegoo]

In my experience (however limited) CoF (and I'm not defending it's spot in the 75) is at it's best just being a body. Sometimes you can smash with Emrakul and just die on the return swing if they have enough permanents to keep a guy around.

[Jodahae]

I wouldnt say "at best its just a body", at best its the time walk you need to steal the game from your opponent, at worst its cycle with no real significance to the game; often its just a tempo play that gives you your flying spaghetti monster and allows you to dodge edict effects. I am a huge fan of CoF. Ive tried other cards in its spot, specifically twiddle and snap but they end up being even more situational than CoF.

[Namida]

All right, I've got a lot of questions.

This opening hand business is still the hardest part of the deck for me. When it comes to keeping your hand, the general question one would ask is "Can this hand do something?" In decks like SI or Belcher, "doing something" is "winning the Game/drawing a billion cards to win the game next turn," and in other decks, it's "establishing board presence/disrupting the opponent, before establishing board presence." In this deck, how would you define what "doing something" is? I ask this because many of the hands I look at when goldfishing are perplexing to me--For instance, I don't know how acceptable it is to keep a hand that is mainly cantrips, because cantrips could be exactly what you need, or absolutely nothing that you wanted.

To seek some advice, I took the Deck with the Chants in it and I pulled up ten sample opening hands. Which hands would you keep against an unknown opponent, and why? Would you alter your choices if you knew what you were playing against in the first Game?

Hand 1) Bayou, Underground Sea, IGG, Top, Ponder, Orim’s Chant, Cabal Ritual
-Would you keep this hand? If you would keep that hand, would you keep this hand with one less land in it?

Hand 2) Ponder, Brainstorm, LED, Duress, Scrubland, Flooded Strand, Polluted Delta

Hand 3) Doomsday, Brainstorm, Underground Sea, Ponder, LED, Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual

Hand 4) Doomsday, Brainstorm x2, Ponder x2, Lotus Petal, Misty Rainforest

Hand 5) LED, Top, Infernal Tutor, Orim’s Chant, Tropical Island, Flooded Strand, Bayou

Hand 6) Brainstorm, Misty Rainforest x2, Infernal Tutor, Flooded Strand, Orim’s Chant, Tundra

Hand 7) Cabal Ritual, Bayou, Infernal Tutor, Rain of Filth, Ponder, Underground Sea, Polluted Delta

Hand 8) Meditate, Dark Ritual, Flooded Strand, Top, Doomsday, Rain of Filth, Infernal Tutor

Hand 9) IGG, Top, Flooded Strand, Duress, Brainstorm, Infernal Tutor, Rain of Filth, Duress

Hand 10) Ponder x2, Flooded Strand x2, Polluted Delta, Top, Dark Ritual

I also have a few more questions.
-In hands with multiple cards like Brainstorm, Ponder, and Top, what order do you play them in?
-Do you aim to go off protected in every game?
-Do you normally want Ill-Gotten Gains, Tendrils, or Meditate in your hand? Do you usually try to shuffle them away with Brainstorm/Top when you see them?
-Are there any tips for using Lim-Dul’s Vault? I realize that you can manipulate the piles if your library isn’t in a multiple of five, but how does that work? For instance…say I want a Ritual and Doomsday in my hand to win the game next turn, and I’ve got Lim-Dul’s Vault and Brainstorm in my hand at the end of my opponent’s turn, with the mana to cast both. How often would you say I'll be able to LDV for the two cards I'm looking for? How would I stack the piles if I had 52 cards in my deck? 51?

Any and all help is appreciated.

[blaat]

Have you viewed those movies from MattiasNL? (posted the page back, but here (http://www.mefeedia.com/feeds/247442/mattiasnl))
He walks through every hand and explains why to keep or mull.

It's two times a movie length, but if you want to learn, just watch it.

It also reminds me that on MTGO, you can have your pile-sheet in front of you to make it a bit easier if that is your main concern.
If it weren't for the insane LED prices, I would try the deck in some daily.

(p.s. I'll let someone else reply on your opening hands, i'm still learning :) )

[Namida]

I can't believe I missed those videos, man. I'm watching them now.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Hand 1) Bayou, Underground Sea, IGG, Top, Ponder, Orim’s Chant, Cabal Ritual
-Would you keep this hand? If you would keep that hand, would you keep this hand with one less land in it?

Hand 2) Ponder, Brainstorm, LED, Duress, Scrubland, Flooded Strand, Polluted Delta

Hand 3) Doomsday, Brainstorm, Underground Sea, Ponder, LED, Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual

Hand 4) Doomsday, Brainstorm x2, Ponder x2, Lotus Petal, Misty Rainforest

Hand 5) LED, Top, Infernal Tutor, Orim’s Chant, Tropical Island, Flooded Strand, Bayou

Hand 6) Brainstorm, Misty Rainforest x2, Infernal Tutor, Flooded Strand, Orim’s Chant, Tundra

Hand 7) Cabal Ritual, Bayou, Infernal Tutor, Rain of Filth, Ponder, Underground Sea, Polluted Delta

Hand 8) Meditate, Dark Ritual, Flooded Strand, Top, Doomsday, Rain of Filth, Infernal Tutor

Hand 9) IGG, Top, Flooded Strand, Duress, Brainstorm, Infernal Tutor, Rain of Filth, Duress

Hand 10) Ponder x2, Flooded Strand x2, Polluted Delta, Top, Dark Ritual



I'm going to take a stab at the hands. Keep in mind that I have a lot less experience than a lot of the players here.

Hand 1) Mediocre, but I'd keep it grudgingly. It has land, top, another cantrip, and even a little bit of accel. If it had one less land it is a mulligan for sure.

Hand 2) Keep. Land, two cantrips, LED, and protection is solid.

Hand 3) This is a greedy hand, but I'm a greedy player so I'd keep it. Turn 1 Ponder into a second land, then win turn 2 if you get one. I'd certainly think hard about keeping this vs. Wasteland and Port.dec though.

Hand 4) Keep. Only one land, but you already have DD and have plenty of cantrips to find more land and acceleration. Just don't walk your one fetchland into stifle.

Hand 5) Keep. Top, plenty of lands, LED + Tutor, even protection. This hand is pretty awesome assuming you can find a bit more accel.

Hand 6) I would probably keep this against a slower opponent, but ship it vs. fast aggro, Emrakul.dec, etc. It would be a good keep vs. tempo.dec as you have so many lands, there just isn't enough going on here.

Hand 7) Rain of Filth annoys me in the opener, but the rest of the hand is decent so might as well keep it.

Hand 8) This is really awkward. I hate throwing away a hand with Ritual/DD, but I'll probably ship this one unless I know my opponent isn't going to disrupt me early. In that case, you can top into land and then use a pass the turn pile or something.

Hand 9) Mulligan. One-landers with Rain of Filth AND Igg make me unhappy.

Hand 10) Keep. Lands, top, cantrips, a ritual? Awesome. Just find DD and you're golden.

Hand 1 and Hand 6 are really awkward and I'm not sure my choices are correct there.

[Jeff Kruchkow]

All right, I've got a lot of questions.

This opening hand business is still the hardest part of the deck for me. When it comes to keeping your hand, the general question one would ask is "Can this hand do something?" In decks like SI or Belcher, "doing something" is "winning the Game/drawing a billion cards to win the game next turn," and in other decks, it's "establishing board presence/disrupting the opponent, before establishing board presence." In this deck, how would you define what "doing something" is? I ask this because many of the hands I look at when goldfishing are perplexing to me--For instance, I don't know how acceptable it is to keep a hand that is mainly cantrips, because cantrips could be exactly what you need, or absolutely nothing that you wanted.

To seek some advice, I took the Deck with the Chants in it and I pulled up ten sample opening hands. Which hands would you keep against an unknown opponent, and why? Would you alter your choices if you knew what you were playing against in the first Game?

Hand 1) Bayou, Underground Sea, IGG, Top, Ponder, Orim’s Chant, Cabal Ritual
-Would you keep this hand? If you would keep that hand, would you keep this hand with one less land in it?

Hand 2) Ponder, Brainstorm, LED, Duress, Scrubland, Flooded Strand, Polluted Delta

Hand 3) Doomsday, Brainstorm, Underground Sea, Ponder, LED, Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual

Hand 4) Doomsday, Brainstorm x2, Ponder x2, Lotus Petal, Misty Rainforest

Hand 5) LED, Top, Infernal Tutor, Orim’s Chant, Tropical Island, Flooded Strand, Bayou

Hand 6) Brainstorm, Misty Rainforest x2, Infernal Tutor, Flooded Strand, Orim’s Chant, Tundra

Hand 7) Cabal Ritual, Bayou, Infernal Tutor, Rain of Filth, Ponder, Underground Sea, Polluted Delta

Hand 8) Meditate, Dark Ritual, Flooded Strand, Top, Doomsday, Rain of Filth, Infernal Tutor

Hand 9) IGG, Top, Flooded Strand, Duress, Brainstorm, Infernal Tutor, Rain of Filth, Duress

Hand 10) Ponder x2, Flooded Strand x2, Polluted Delta, Top, Dark Ritual

I also have a few more questions.
-In hands with multiple cards like Brainstorm, Ponder, and Top, what order do you play them in?
-Do you aim to go off protected in every game?
-Do you normally want Ill-Gotten Gains, Tendrils, or Meditate in your hand? Do you usually try to shuffle them away with Brainstorm/Top when you see them?
-Are there any tips for using Lim-Dul’s Vault? I realize that you can manipulate the piles if your library isn’t in a multiple of five, but how does that work? For instance…say I want a Ritual and Doomsday in my hand to win the game next turn, and I’ve got Lim-Dul’s Vault and Brainstorm in my hand at the end of my opponent’s turn, with the mana to cast both. How often would you say I'll be able to LDV for the two cards I'm looking for? How would I stack the piles if I had 52 cards in my deck? 51?

Any and all help is appreciated.

Hand 1: In this meta I porbably mull because waste is so prevalent and you can probably get a better 6
Hand 2: Easy keep, its got accel and cantrips with fetches.
Hand 3: Easy keep, its a turn 2 win with any land/petal
Hand 4: Keep. One land is eh but you can fetch an island and cantrip for more.
Hand 5: Keep. Has protection land and business.
Hand 6: Id keep but it is a bit land heavy so if you know the other deck is something fast Id mull
Hand 7: Keep and pray ponder finds an LED/cantrip
Hand 8: I would keep but I imagine a lot of people would mull. However an LED just lets that hand win on the spot
Hand 9: Mull. One land and 2 dead cards is sucky
Hand 10: Keep. It has cantrip and while business light, cantrips and getches are good

For hands with multiple Brainstorm, Top, Ponder it depends on the hand. In general I try and get Top down early but if the hand makes it obvious that you are going IGG then cantrips are best first. Also, I try and use Ponder first since brainstorm is really useful for some piles.
I aim to go protected only against blue. Otherwise it's not necessary
Normally you dont want to see IGG, Tendrils, Meditate but there are times where meditate in hand is the nuts
Idk must about LDV, I just use it as a Mystical Tutor replacement.

[Mostly_Harmless]

I mostly agree with admiral and jeff on the hands. 9 is a clear mull, a couple of the others are mediocre but keepable (1 and 6 in particular), the rest are solid. 3 is particularly awesome.

As far as the different cantrips go, I prefer to drop top as soon as I can unless I'm playing against very fast aggro (where IGG is just so much better). After that, I usually brainstorm if I can shuffle afterwards and ponder otherwise, although there are exceptions. In general, if you try to squeeze every last card out of your cantrips whenever you have the time, you'll do well. I think an even more interesting question is "top on upkeep or not?" I think it highly depends on what you'll be doing on your turn and what draws would be bad/ok/excellent. Either way, very contextual.

In control matches, meditate is pretty much the nuts (just play it end of turn and watch them squirm). Tendrils is also quite good in the control matches, since you can start fights over mana/protection/doomsday and then just play the tendrils naturally. The two actually combine very well, since the meditate generally draws you into enough gas to tendrils for 20. IGG is my least favorite to draw, but it still has its uses. Against aggro, it lets you use your infernal tutor to get more mana before the IGG loop, so it only really hurts if you have something like two lands, two LED. Against control, the mindtwist is pretty valuable if you don't have any duresses, but after they've used any counters it gets pretty bad.

For LDV, I'm just going to quote Emidln off of storm boards. If you have the time, the whole DDFT thread (and the Doomsday Piles thread while you're at it) are definitely worth reading, but here's the part you're looking for:

Looping through the deck depends on how much life you have as well as how many cards are left in your deck. This might help you navigate the decision tree:

Let the C be the number of cards left in your deck as you cast LDV.

Read C%5 as C modulo 5

C%5 = 0 (i.e. 50, 45, etc)
C%5 = 1 (i.e. 51, 46, 41 etc)
C%5 = 2 (i.e. 52, 47, 42 etc)
C%5 = 3 (i.e. 53, 48, 43 etc)
C%5 = 4 (i.e. 54, 49, 44 etc)

At aC%5 value of 0:

You can loop around, but this does no good as the cards will never change. Your set of 5 cards will remain static until C%5 is not 0.

At a C%5 value of 1:

If you loop around a deck with a C%5 value of 1, when you are creating piles you need to consider that once you have "looped" (i.e. started to see the cards in the beginning of the deck again) the new piles will be composed of 1 card put on bottom of the previous 5 and 4 cards put on top of this set of 5.

At a C%5 value of 2:

If you loop around a deck with a C%5 value of 2, the new piles will be composed of the bottom 2 cards from the previous iteration and the top 3 cards from this iteration.

At a C%5 value of 3:

If you loop around a deck with a C%5 value of 3, the new piles will be composed of the bottom 3 cards from the previous iteration and the top 2 cards from this iteration.

At a C%5 value of 4

If you loop around a deck with a C%5 value of 4, the new piles will be composed of the bottom 4 cards from the previous iteration and the top 1 card from this iteration.

Generalized:

Due to this, you need to keep track of a lot of things when LDV is resolving:

(a) What cards will win you the game based on your current situation (hand, in play, graveayrd, opponent, etc)
(b) How many cards are in your deck
(c) What iteration (I call this the i value) that you are on in your deck (past a certain i value, you can no longer loop around because you'll run out of life)
(d) What number of cards are relevant in the last iteration (i.e. C%5 value of 1 would mean that the bottom card of the previous iteration is relevant) and what those cards are

Based on this information, you decide if the cards in the current iteration can (1) win the game game by themselves, (2) if not, will they win the game with the cards from (d), and (3) if still not, are any of these cards desirable to have in the amount dictated by (d) if I should draw appropriate in the next iteration provided that I have enough life to loop around to get them.

Further, based in this process you need to keep track of how many cards you play that will win the game in your situation as well as how many you have previously seen and what iteration they are in if you should need to settle for something that isn't perfect.


Example:

Suppose that your deck looks like this:

[Top]
Brainstorm
Lotus Petal
Dark Ritual
Doomsday
Ill-Gotten Gains
...
Lion'e Eye Diamond
[/Bottom]

And that you have 51 cards in your deck as LDV resolves. If you anticipate wanting Brainstorm, Lotus Petal, Dark Ritual, and Doomsday, but not Ill-Gotten Gains, you might put the cards on bottom in the following order: Brainstorm, then Lotus Petal, then Dark Ritual, then Doomsday, then Ill-Gotten Gains. When you begin to "loop around" you'll have the bottom card of the deck from when you started, plus the first four cards of your initial 5. In our case, this would be:

Lion's Eye Diamond
Brainstorm
Lotus Petal
Dark Ritual
Doomsday

If you were needing a Lion's Eye Diamond in addition to the other 4 cards, you could stop here, set aside those 5, shuffle your library and then reorder these 5 however you want.

[emidln]

8 is an easy keep against aggro. You sdt then draw blind and activate it before your turn 3. You see 4 cards for a lot of things that just kill your opponent (including any land).

[Pulp_Fiction]

I realize these hands are not from the Burning Wish version but I'm going to pretend like I have Emrakul just for fun since I really don't like the german versions at all. And Rain of Filth is Cabal Ritual as well as Chants are discard.

Hand 1) Bayou, Underground Sea, IGG, Top, Ponder, Orim’s Chant, Cabal Ritual
-Would you keep this hand? If you would keep that hand, would you keep this hand with one less land in it?

Keep, at worst it is a turn 3 Emrakul or pass the turn stack. Most likely a turn 4 Meditate stack. I would keep it with one less land but that land would have to be the Sea so I can lead with Ponder.

Hand 2) Ponder, Brainstorm, LED, Duress, Scrubland, Flooded Strand, Polluted Delta

Keep, not bad, I would lead w Duress, then Ponder on the second turn. Most likely a turn 3-4 kill.

Hand 3) Doomsday, Brainstorm, Underground Sea, Ponder, LED, Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual

HA, love it, with 17 lands and 4 Petals in the deck this is tough to lose, lead with Ponder into the turn 2 win.

Hand 4) Doomsday, Brainstorm x2, Ponder x2, Lotus Petal, Misty Rainforest

I'd keep, basically a turn 2 DD, Shelldock.

Hand 5) LED, Top, Infernal Tutor, Orim’s Chant, Tropical Island, Flooded Strand, Bayou

Awesome hand, guarnteed turn 2 Emrakul stack, or possibly a turn 2-3 win based on the amount of acceleration you draw wither VIA IGG loop or a Meditate stack.

Hand 6) Brainstorm, Misty Rainforest x2, Infernal Tutor, Flooded Strand, Orim’s Chant, Tundra

Terrible, I would mull this immediately.

Hand 7) Cabal Ritual, Bayou, Infernal Tutor, Rain of Filth, Ponder, Underground Sea, Polluted Delta

I really despise Rain of Filth. Used to run it in older DD lists and never liked it, always found CR to be way better in nearly every case. I would mull this whether that card is RoF or CR.

Hand 8) Meditate, Dark Ritual, Flooded Strand, Top, Doomsday, Rain of Filth, Infernal Tutor

Keep. Turn 1 Emrakul or a potential turn 2-4 Meditate stack.

Hand 9) IGG, Top, Flooded Strand, Duress, Brainstorm, Infernal Tutor, Rain of Filth, Duress

I would keep the hand if Rain was CR since I at least have some way of casting DD early on and not having to bastardize my Emrakul stack with lands. I would not keep this against goblins, Zoo, or Merfolk but CB absolutely.

Hand 10) Ponder x2, Flooded Strand x2, Polluted Delta, Top, Dark Ritual

Absolutely, love hands like this. Lead w Ponder (unless playing against something with discard) and try to find all the accel you can. Most likely a turn 3-4 kill.

[leegoo]

I built this deck (german version) last weekend for a local tournament after some Frustrations with ANT (mostly stemming from the fact that I was turning ANT into DDFT to win certain matchups anyways) and was blown away.

I had 0 piles memorized, or experience building them, other than the meditate/petal/led/led/tendrils pile that I had had some exposure to when playing ANT post board.

Still, although I punted 3 games overall, and killed a lot of people through tutor chains when I could have built DD piles... managed to go 3-1 (Loss to Bant... Clique in particular in game3, beat Affinity, Dreadstill and Team America) then a Junk deck in t4 (after literally casting doomsday, stacking my deck and conceding...lol...) and splitting with goblins in the finals.

This week I've spent a lot of time Goldfishing and reading as much of the Storm Boards and here as possible. Love the deck. It seems extremely resilient compared to ANT, and I love that the deck has plenty of stuff to "do" (hated drawing a hand of cantrips and never doing anything)

Anyways, going to try to play it again this weekend in a GPT, hopefully I'll be a little better pilot this time.

[lorddotm]

I built this deck (german version) last weekend for a local tournament after some Frustrations with ANT (mostly stemming from the fact that I was turning ANT into DDFT to win certain matchups anyways) and was blown away.

I had 0 piles memorized, or experience building them, other than the meditate/petal/led/led/tendrils pile that I had had some exposure to when playing ANT post board.

Still, although I punted 3 games overall, and killed a lot of people through tutor chains when I could have built DD piles... managed to go 3-1 (Loss to Bant... Clique in particular in game3, beat Affinity, Dreadstill and Team America) then a Junk deck in t4 (after literally casting doomsday, stacking my deck and conceding...lol...) and splitting with goblins in the finals.

This week I've spent a lot of time Goldfishing and reading as much of the Storm Boards and here as possible. Love the deck. It seems extremely resilient compared to ANT, and I love that the deck has plenty of stuff to "do" (hated drawing a hand of cantrips and never doing anything)

Anyways, going to try to play it again this weekend in a GPT, hopefully I'll be a little better pilot this time.

Really? You like the deck?

I tried it, and it just performed worse than TES for me (Granted I tend to think TES is the best Storm deck). The mana base is also really awkward against Wasteland+Stifle.

[leegoo]

I did think the manabase was a bit cold vs. stifle/waste (it did come up in the goblins match - we played for the points and I lost having the kill in hand, but having my sea wasted and never drawing another fetch or black source... unlucky for sure but it got me thinking). I've since switched to a manabase of

4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Bayou
1 Tropical
1 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland

A subtle difference, but cutting 1x fetch for a basic swamp has been pretty good, giving you some solid ground to stand on vs. wastelands. It's also possible you could cut the tropical or bayou main for the swamp as you only need either post board, and carpet still makes green if you cast it first.

I think your assessment of TES is pretty close to being spot on as far as power levels go. LaxStorm (if that's what we're calling it now) was fine when you wanted to smash randoms while laughing at wastelands, but it's inability to "answer" anything in the main was pretty disturbing. Also, most control decks could float a FoW on top of their library and just beat you.

I've got TES built as well and feel fine with the deck vs. the field, but I haven't played DDFT enough yet to decide if it's strictly worse or not. Having access to pass the turn piles, crazy large storm count, and still having tutor chain kills has a lot of appeal (as does life total being largely irrelevant) I also think (but again, not sure) the Tempo deck matchup is probably a bit better, especially post board.

[GGoober]

Guys I've read through 90% of the thread here, it's always been a deck on my to-play list but I haven't got about to doing so. I was just wondering why hasn't the older list of NLS created by emdlin been re-explored again?

Recap: NLS is a DDFT build that is slightly faster and uses Burning Wish to grab either EtW/Tendrils/IGG/Doomsday (3 MD, 1 SB).

I've been thinking that DDFT has some naturally strong matchups against control/countertop thanks to its ability to cantrip and grab a hand of quality spells. It is fundamentally slower than other combo decks but it sacrifices speed for resiliency. THe NLS build in the past that I particularly liked was the ability to grab 1 Helm of Awakening MD to setup infinite storm with DD->double Top piles and win without worrying on storm count into a lethal Tendrils. But more importantly, it was able to win through grapeshot when hate bears are around.

Given that GSZ is in the format and noticing that Bant/Zoo/GWb decks are all starting to play Teeg + Canonist MD with Zenith, which proves to problematic for a slower combo deck that can potentially be out-raced by these decks' fast clocks, do you think 1 MD Helm is worthwhile to explore in NLS? Is NLS viable in today's meta? I just haven't seen any discussions recently about the older list, especially in lieu on GSZ being actually a problematic card to worry about on top of the other regular decks the deck fears. Grapeshot will be able to get past Canonist and Teeg, or even Meddling Mage if they named Tendrils (they'll probably name Doomsday though).

[flrn]

Really? You like the deck?

I tried it, and it just performed worse than TES for me (Granted I tend to think TES is the best Storm deck). The mana base is also really awkward against Wasteland+Stifle.

If you think TES is the best storm deck, then you propably should stick to playing it. Whenever I read a post from you in a Fetchland Tendrils/DDFT thread you have to point out how awesome TES is and that DDFT sucks. I mean if that's your opinion it's fine, but a) you never provide any arguments, why TES should be superior to DDFT and b) you don't have to scream it out loud whenever you get the chance to do so. Your attitude is kinda like "Oh someone wrote something in the Fetchland Tendrils Thread. Better tell them that TES is the way better deck."


I did think the manabase was a bit cold vs. stifle/waste (it did come up in the goblins match - we played for the points and I lost having the kill in hand, but having my sea wasted and never drawing another fetch or black source... unlucky for sure but it got me thinking). I've since switched to a manabase of

4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Bayou
1 Tropical
1 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland

I don't recommend doing this. Basic Swamp and nonblue fetchlands are horrible in this build. If you feel that Tempo.dec might beat you, get yourself a test partner, who plays that deck until your eyes pop out or something. There is no need to include either nonblue fetchlands or a Basic Swamp. You never want to open one of those two, because all you need to set up for a kill is the Basic Island and you got 11 outs on that one with the normal manabase. I still don't really like playing Bayou/Scrubland main, but those are needed to fix your colours from time to time. Nonblue fetchlands and Basic Swamp aren't needed. Oh and btw you aren't a fast combo deck against Canadian/Team America. You are the control player and he is the beatdown deck. You got plenty of time to kill em, because people still haven't realized that turn 1 Nimble Mongoose is actually decent against DDFT.

[Mostly_Harmless]

I've been using that exact manabase for a while now, and I haven't had any issues with it. The basic swamp may be a crutch in the tempo matches (I don't think so, but I haven't practiced the match as much as I'd like), but it's incredible against the chalice decks.

Also, occasionally having to grab an underground sea in aggro matches is really not an issue (honestly, if I have more than one land I frequently don't fetch for basics anyways, since goblins has to skip its turn to waste me), and while swamp may not be necessary in the merfolk match, it's certainly not bad. In addition, in postboard matches against blue I usually want a forest very quickly, so the catacombs almost always fetch the right land.

[leegoo]

@ FLRN

you may indeed be right about the manabase. With more testing I may indeed switch it back. Currently I haven't had much issue with it, but as I said before, my experience with the deck is pretty limited. (I suppose one could certainly argue that in itself is good enough reason not to mess with the mana) However, my local meta is pretty wasteland saturated, so I think that could be skewing my view of things.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Guys I've read through 90% of the thread here, it's always been a deck on my to-play list but I haven't got about to doing so. I was just wondering why hasn't the older list of NLS created by emdlin been re-explored again?

Recap: NLS is a DDFT build that is slightly faster and uses Burning Wish to grab either EtW/Tendrils/IGG/Doomsday (3 MD, 1 SB).

I've been thinking that DDFT has some naturally strong matchups against control/countertop thanks to its ability to cantrip and grab a hand of quality spells. It is fundamentally slower than other combo decks but it sacrifices speed for resiliency. THe NLS build in the past that I particularly liked was the ability to grab 1 Helm of Awakening MD to setup infinite storm with DD->double Top piles and win without worrying on storm count into a lethal Tendrils. But more importantly, it was able to win through grapeshot when hate bears are around.

.

I think you're thinking of Pulp_Fiction's faster DDFT build, which ran Burning Wish and Helm of Awakening, along with Cabal Rituals. NLS was a Ad Nauseum-Doomsday hybrid with Burning Wish that was wiped off the face of the Earth by the Mystical Tutor ban.

[leegoo]

I'm not opposed to playing red, helm (although it seems a bit sketchy main) or grapeshot (again, maybe not main)

However, at 5 colors I do *think* I would just rather be playing TES. I could be convinced otherwise though

[Rune]

Guys I've read through 90% of the thread here, it's always been a deck on my to-play list but I haven't got about to doing so. I was just wondering why hasn't the older list of NLS created by emdlin been re-explored again?

Recap: NLS is a DDFT build that is slightly faster and uses Burning Wish to grab either EtW/Tendrils/IGG/Doomsday (3 MD, 1 SB).

I've been thinking that DDFT has some naturally strong matchups against control/countertop thanks to its ability to cantrip and grab a hand of quality spells. It is fundamentally slower than other combo decks but it sacrifices speed for resiliency. THe NLS build in the past that I particularly liked was the ability to grab 1 Helm of Awakening MD to setup infinite storm with DD->double Top piles and win without worrying on storm count into a lethal Tendrils. But more importantly, it was able to win through grapeshot when hate bears are around.

Given that GSZ is in the format and noticing that Bant/Zoo/GWb decks are all starting to play Teeg + Canonist MD with Zenith, which proves to problematic for a slower combo deck that can potentially be out-raced by these decks' fast clocks, do you think 1 MD Helm is worthwhile to explore in NLS? Is NLS viable in today's meta? I just haven't seen any discussions recently about the older list, especially in lieu on GSZ being actually a problematic card to worry about on top of the other regular decks the deck fears. Grapeshot will be able to get past Canonist and Teeg, or even Meddling Mage if they named Tendrils (they'll probably name Doomsday though).

Someone posted an updated version of NLS on stormboards some time ago. As far as I remember, the list went like this:

4 Dark Ritual
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Lotus Petal
4 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
3 Infernal Tutor
3 Doomsday
2 Chrome Mox
2 Cabal Ritual
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Ideas Unbound

14 lands


Can't say I really like the build. Without Mystical Tutor, I don't think it's possible to successfully incorporate both DD and AdN in the same deck anymore.


About the increase in hate bears, I think you're right - the slower combo decks will be slightly more affected by them, but not by that much. GWx decks can now effectively pack 10+ hatecards (GSZ + Teeg + Canonist + E.Tutor) and some of these decks also play Aether Vial, so your bounce is sometimes invalidated. Because of this, I no longer think it's possible to just Thoughtseize their 1 hate card and laugh at them. On one hand, beating a resolved postboard Teeg is definitely much easier for DDFT than for a faster combo deck (like TES). On the other hand, TES can just kill the opponent before he gets his 2nd turn and, because of the deck's speed, you won't have do deal with nonsense like Mother of Runes + Teeg + Canonist very often. The opponent just doesn't get a chance to start piling on the hate like they sometimes are when your deck is more on the slow side of things. Helm + Grapeshot/Brain Freeze seems good because it would solve those kinds of (near) unbeatable board states. Losing to a Pridemage does suck, though, and you have to pass the turn after DD, if they have Canonist in play, so playing around K. Grip/QPM won't always be easy. I haven't seen any GSZ decks with maindeck Canonists yet, so I see no reason to maindeck the Helm. At the moment, 1 Chain of Vapor in the maindeck should be sufficient to easily beat them postboard. CoV is a must in the maindeck of DDFT right now. It answers the maindeck Teegs, it draws an extra card with SDT and it also generates a ton of storm when you need it. A board of just Teeg + Canonist isn't very hard to beat for DDFT because you just need 1 bounce spell and enough mana to make a DD stack with CoV in it.

[flrn]

@ FLRN

you may indeed be right about the manabase. With more testing I may indeed switch it back. Currently I haven't had much issue with it, but as I said before, my experience with the deck is pretty limited. (I suppose one could certainly argue that in itself is good enough reason not to mess with the mana) However, my local meta is pretty wasteland saturated, so I think that could be skewing my view of things.

My local meta is also filled Wastelands. Still I'm not playing the Basic Swamp and the nonblue Fetchlands for a good reason. I'm not saying that it doesn't work, I'm just saying that you have to take mulligans off that decision to include those in your list. You always want blue mana first to be able to play Brainstorm/Ponder to set up your kill. Being able to always fetch the Basic Island first is key, when playing the deck. I can't keep a hand with a Basic Swamp on it, because there is only one scenario, where you want the Basic Swamp and that is when you are going to do the pass the turn pile for 1U against nonblue decks packing Wastelands. But I never had a situation in the past half year, where I couldn't win the game before turn three by doing that, because I was afraid of losing to a Wasteland. There is always a way to win the game. If you play the deck on a more regular basis you will realize that too.

The fact that Verdant Catacombs fetches for the Forest postboard is not really an argument since all my Fetchlands can fetch for Tropical Island and seven of them can fetch for Bayou. You can't keep a one land hand with Verdant Catacombs either, since it can't fetch for the Basic Island, where the german manabase can keep it, since they can just fetch for the Basic Island. Nemavera and myself are playing that manabase now since four months and we never even had a discussion to change it due to the amounts of Wastelands being playing in our metagames. We got to the consens, that if you play the deck correctly there is no need for any other Basic Land than Island, because with ten fetchlands it is very unlikely that you need to crack all your fetchlands for initial black before you are able to go off, and when you go off you just crack one to fix your initial black.

I just had a testgame in our playtesting group, where my opponent played a green/black Dark Depths list. He used 2 Thoughtseize and 3 Inquisition of Kozilek on my hand, wasted 4 out of 5 off my black sources and still wasn't able to win. Another friend of me playtested a blue/black Dreadnought list packing 4 Stifle, 3 Daze, 4 Force of Will, 3-4 Spell Snare and 4 Wastelands (He also had Confidants, SDT, Brainstorm for CA/Cardselection). I went 7-0 against him and we both didn't board. And he used to play DDFT, so he is a good test partner, because he knows the deck very well. That's just how good the deck is.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Jesus christ, WTF kind of list is that? And I totally played HelmShot after MT was banned but it turned out to be rather lackluster. I still play BW and my list ca be found on previous pages (it is close to what u see).

[leegoo]

Gitaxian Probe looks to be a strict upgrade to street wraith in the Doomsday builds that run(ran?) him.

Might have to start testing a list with IU.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Went 3-1-1 at my local tournement w my regular list on wednesday. I made top 8 out of 22ish people and lost due to solid luck. Here is a brief description of what I played against:

Round 1 - W/b/g Death and Taxes (2-0)

g1: Turn 3 Meditate stack.
g2: Turn 4 Meditate Stack w Slaughter Pact.

Round 2 - Elf Combo (2-0)

g1: Turn 1 DD go Emrakul Stack gets there.
g2: Turn 2 Medittate stack ... fuck yeah!

Round 3 Big Zoo (ChokeSeemsGood) (2-1)

g1: Turn 2 Empty for 14 gets there.
g2: I fight through: Null Rod, Pithing Needlex2 and Revoker. I Meltdown them all and he plays another Null Rod .... and shows me a Silence in his hand efter the game.
g3: I open the nuts of turn 1 Meditate stack and show him, he scoopes it up and we laugh. I hate playing this guys cause he is on of my good friends.

Round 4 -ID

Top 8

4c CB (1-2)

g1: He counters like 4 spells w active CB and I BW for EtW and they see Firespout. DD resolves 2 turns later ... Emrakul Kills him.
g2: I get turn 3 DD annd he slowrolls the MM and drops it naming Wipe Away w a Pithing Needle on the board for Shelldock. (I am like 8-3 VS him ... he knows what im playing and is one of the better players at the card shop as well as being one of the highest ranked MTG players in the state).
g3: We fight and I get turn 3 DD. He rips his one of Karakas off the top .... nature of the beast. Regardless of your deck sometimes ur opponent just draws like a pro. I miss out on top 4 prizes but would not change a single thing about the deck.

Overall I feel this is the best combo deck in the meta and would not change a thing. Sometimes u just lose to luck, and playing a combo deck, it really is nature of the beast cause most of the time u just win against a large portion of the format, and sometimes ur opponents rip exactly what they need. So overall I am very happy with the deck. My only changes are -1 Eye of Nowhere and +1 Mindbreak Trap to the board. The reason for this is so I can play a DDGO pile with Emrakul against storm combo and with a Top in play or BS in hand and not lose. Aside from that, the versatility of this deck is still unmatched and I would net even think about playing another deck if I were to play in a large field. What a ;arge portion of the source seems to not understand is that my meta consists of EVERYTHING. U will play against mono-black infect, gobbos, TES, Counterbalance, Landstill, Abyss control, Dredge, Dragon Stompy ... etc. My list is tuned to beat everything and has the abilities to do so, but sometimes u lose to simple luck. Oh well, small price to pay for playing the best deck in legacy :)

[GGoober]

Pulp, is this your DDFT with Burning Wishes? I enjoyed your list a lot. Reminds me of the old days where DDFT evolved towards NLS (with mystical tutors at that time). It had a little more speed and versatility with the Wishes.

Do you mind posting your list or is it the same list 3 pages back?

[leegoo]

good job Pulp, I've been meaning to try the version you posted a page or so back.

Last night playing some with the German list (which I love) I ran into an awkward situation. My opener has Tendrils in it. His t1 play is Mother of Runes, t2 Tidehollow Sculler < Tendrils. Ouch.

After a headache inducing amount of thought, I find Chain of Vapor, try to bounce during his end step, (he gives it pro blue) then set up a doomsday pile that ends with CoV (and therefore Tendrils)

Just love how resilient this deck is, especially for a game1 situation. If I was still playing ANT, I would have had to scoop to that sculler, although the rest of his keep was pretty poor.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Sorry, I try not to clutter the thread with decklists especially since I have posted my list all over the stormboards and here. But since I posted a tournament report and changed my SB slightly I will post. This is what I played:

4x Top
3x Duress
4x Dark Ritual
3x Cabal Ritual
4x Petal
4x LED
4x Burning Wish
4x Brainstorm
2x Infernal Tutor
3x Doomsday
3x Thoughtseize
1x IGG
1x Meditate
1x Emrakul
1x Tendrils
1x Ponder

3x Bloodstained Mire
4x Polluted Delta
2x Scalded Tarn
2x Underground Sea
1x City of Brass
1x Badlands
1x Volcanic Island
1x Swamp
1x Island
1x Shelldock Isle

SB
1x Tendrils
1x EtW
1x Doomsday
1x Deathmark
1x Meltdown
1x Infernal Tutor

2x Wipe Away
2x Rebuild
1x Mindbreak Trap
1x Thoughtseize
1x Echoing Truth
1x Chain of Vapor
1x Slaughter Pact

I feel incredibly confident playing this list. It is certainly sub-par against Merfolk but has positive matchups against literally everything else which is why I play it in my meta. Playing 3 colors and not running Swarm makes this deck infinitely better against Stax/Stompy decks. Playing Swarm is solid, but the only deck I want it against is Merfolk. In almost every other matchup it sucks. This is the only 1 I want it in. Maybe TA but no one in my meta plays it cause it would certainly lose because that deck blows ass unless it plays against tier 1 legacy decks. This list is tuned for a 100% random meta. I play it because it works. The decks at this last tournament were as follows: Burn, Dredge, CB, Dragon Stompy, Zoo, Sneak Attack Show n Tell, Ninja Chant, Abyss Control, Elf Combo, some Standard decks, Spiral Tide, Reanimator, Death and Taxes and a few others. This is all I can remember but ... its fucking everything. And this was a 22-26 player tournament. I consistenyl top 4 with this list because of the versatility. THERE IS NO POSSIBLE WAY TO HATE THIS DECK OUT. I have access to every good storm wincon in legacy and the deck is fast. A very consistent turn 2-4 deck. Turn 1 happens like 5% of the time but is still possible. People in my meta love playing Null Rod and I have won through it numerous times w Emrakul.

This deck really is the swiss army knife of legacy cause it is able to attack from every single angle. I won a match a few months ago with EtW for 2 after it got Stifled, brought him down to 4 life and killed his dumb landstill ass with those 1 token cause he failed to answer both. Merfolk also sucks in my meta and rarely top 4s because it sucks against random stuff. People dstill play it but they usually face gobbos or Zoo or dredge and just lose. The point is, after all my testing, this is the best list I can think of. The german lists would not fair well in my meta. Since the banning of MT the only decks I seem to play have Burning Wish in them .... fair enough. The card works wonders and allows your deck to adapt to the opponent or offers answers for whatever they are doing. I feel DDFT is not nearly as strong without it because it adds both threat density and answers to an already strong deck. And the combination of Tendrils, EtW, and Emrakul is very lethal. This deck doesn't even have to win with storm and only has 1 dead draw (Emrakul) in the entire deck. This is why I feel it is better than TES: 1 because I hate that inconsistent deck, 2 because it mulligans like shit, and 3 because I don't have to win with storm. I can mull to 4 and still have WAY better odds of getting Emrakul than TES does of hitting lethal EtW.

[GGoober]

Thanks Pulp, that was the list I saw a few pages back that I was most interested in. I really like the Burning Wishes giving more speed/flexibility/tutoring-power/tutoring-speed in this list. Also, I was never interested in playing ANT.dec because I feel that losing due to life totals against opponents is quite embarrassing (i.e. losing to decks playing creatures). Also, I've always seen Doomsday as a deck that can not only win through a low life, but also a low number of cards in hand. It's very similar to how Time Spiral can just win with TIme Spiral in hand and nothing else. Being BBB is tremendously easier to cast than 3BB without requiring other cards in hand.

I have one question which I didn't see you discussing: Do you think that 6 discard protection maindeck is needed for a general meta preboard? I see that by doing so you are only running 1 Ponder. Is it possible to get by with 4 discard maindeck and up to 3 Ponder giving a total of 11 cantrips which possibly account for a much stronger and consistent game 1?

The list looks incredible. That Meltdown is really solid the more I think about it lol. Do you think the SB could use a x1 copy of Pyroclasm that answers opposing EtW that come in faster (TES/Belcher) and every hatebear (pyroclasm also answers multiple hate-bears in play) in existence?

[Pulp_Fiction]

Thanks Pulp, that was the list I saw a few pages back that I was most interested in. I really like the Burning Wishes giving more speed/flexibility/tutoring-power/tutoring-speed in this list. Also, I was never interested in playing ANT.dec because I feel that losing due to life totals against opponents is quite embarrassing (i.e. losing to decks playing creatures). Also, I've always seen Doomsday as a deck that can not only win through a low life, but also a low number of cards in hand. It's very similar to how Time Spiral can just win with TIme Spiral in hand and nothing else. Being BBB is tremendously easier to cast than 3BB without requiring other cards in hand.

I have one question which I didn't see you discussing: Do you think that 6 discard protection maindeck is needed for a general meta preboard? I see that by doing so you are only running 1 Ponder. Is it possible to get by with 4 discard maindeck and up to 3 Ponder giving a total of 11 cantrips which possibly account for a much stronger and consistent game 1?

The list looks incredible. That Meltdown is really solid the more I think about it lol. Do you think the SB could use a x1 copy of Pyroclasm that answers opposing EtW that come in faster (TES/Belcher) and every hatebear (pyroclasm also answers multiple hate-bears in play) in existence?

6x Duress effects are basically the bare minimim for protection spells. Because of Top and BW you will find it quite rare to not have access to one. But going down to 4 ... u can, but I have no idea how good that would be. There is just so much out there you need them for. Unless you play in a meta that consists of only aggro, and if thats the case Belcher would just tear them up. After you practice w the deck customize it to fit your metagame, but I really can't think of one where you would want to play less than 6x protection spells.

I much prefer Meltdown over Shattering Spree or Pulverize but both of those cards certainly have merit with the right manabase. I choose to play Meltdown since it is largely irrelevant what lands I have in play, just need access to a single R. The downside is that it will kill Top if ur opponent Needles/Revokers it. Play what you think you will need in the board. Pyroclasm is not wrong at all, I used to run it when MMs ran rampant in my meta. If you will need it more than something like Deathmark or you don't ever wish for IT then certainly run it over those.

[Namida]

Since you were talking up your version of the deck so much, I decided to give it a try now that I have a bit more experience with Storm in general. I must say, I thought that having only one Ponder would be deplorable, but your deck has so many business spells that I don't really miss Ponder at all. I'm liking this list more because I'm not cantripping into cantrips at all like I seem to do in the other versions. Burning Wish makes it acceptable to some extent for the removal of discard spells, but I definitely wouldn't do it for more cantrips.

On an unrelated note--I'd like a little insight on the card Doomsday itself. When you cast Doomsday, you pick five cards between your library and your graveyard. I'm assuming this is the case, but I want to make sure: Do you have to let your opponent see the cards you selected from your graveyard? The next question is this: After Doomsday resolves, all of the remaining cards are removed from the game face up. Your opponent has access to the information of your removed library contents, minus the cards in your current library and hand, right? How many times have your opponents actually looked at the cards you removed? Has it ever helped them?

[lorddotm]

You do not have to show your opponents the 5 card pile.


The next question is this: After Doomsday resolves, all of the remaining cards are removed from the game face up. Your opponent has access to the information of your removed library contents, minus the cards in your current library and hand, right? How many times have your opponents actually looked at the cards you removed? Has it ever helped them?

This is the reason I do not play Doomsday too often. I am in a metagame where the good players have an extremely high level of understanding regarding Storm (I tend to do well in my area, and I only play Storm so a lot of tournaments that people win usually involve playing against me), so letting them see my entire deck is usually not the business, and it has cost me a few games, but that is usually only after boarding when they can see my anti-hate. That being said, a lot of Legacy players will just never think through your card choices, so letting them see your deck is unbelievably irrelevant. Plus a lot of times, it doesn't matter if your opponent knows your entire 75 by heart and could write it down for you in seven languages, you will just kill them and they can't stop you.

[Rune]

On an unrelated note--I'd like a little insight on the card Doomsday itself. When you cast Doomsday, you pick five cards between your library and your graveyard. I'm assuming this is the case, but I want to make sure: Do you have to let your opponent see the cards you selected from your graveyard?

Yes, the graveyard is public info. You aren't allowed to mash your library and graveyard together before starting to search

[emidln]

Almost all of my opponents look at the rest of my deck when I RFG it. I don't believe it has hurt me yet, although I can think of several instances where they assumed I was going for a strategy that I wasn't due to me sideboarding something out or having it in hand as a dead card and I killed them because they tried to act proactively.

[Scopeye]

How big of an effect is the new Mental Misstep gonna have against this deck? I actually think it might benefit us if they start to use it instead of spell pierce. Getting your DRit or SDT is annoying but DD piles are pretty resilient against it imo.

Also can Gitaxian Probe replace ponder in the lists that run it as a 1 of?

[leegoo]

How big of an effect is the new Mental Misstep gonna have against this deck? I actually think it might benefit us if they start to use it instead of spell pierce. Getting your DRit or SDT is annoying but DD piles are pretty resilient against it imo.

Also can Gitaxian Probe replace ponder in the lists that run it as a 1 of?

I think probe fits better in the versions that ran street wraith / Idea's Unbound.

Mental Misstep still has a pretty strong effect vs. this deck. Almost every pile requires a 1cc spell to get to tendrils...

[Dark Ritual]

Probe is almost strictly better than street wraith (it can be countered by mental misstep). If anyone still runs wraith they should just switch it to probe IMO since it contributes to storm which I find to be very key in this deck.

A tourney report from me playing Nemavera's list with maybe a handful of manabase changes otherwise very close to Nemavera's 75.

Round 1 v. Zenith Rock
I open with duress and see GSZ x2, terravore, and KotR. Take a GSZ. His turn one he goes bayou into dryad arbor off of GSZ. Turn 2 I sculpt and turn 3 I win with a standard meditate stack.
Game 2 he thoughtseize's me and takes my sensei's top. I play land and pass for a few turns while he gets some non hate bear creatures down one of them a confidant along with some goyfs and stuff. I get down to 2 life and IGG loop him out of the game or do the standard meditate stack I didn't take notes and my memory is foggy on this.

1-0 (2-0)

Round 2 v. ????
I can't remember what happened this round I think I faced a very favorable MU or something but I won 2-0. I didn't take notes at the event so yeah I'm doing this off of just memory but I remember I didn't drop a game against this opponent either.

2-0 (4-0)

Round 3 v. Merfolk
I know what he's playing when we sit down since he played next to me during the 1st round or 2nd round again my memory is foggy. Game 1 is kind of dragged out with myself cantripping and him not getting a massive force of blue men on the board I think he just had a cursecatcher and a silvergill adept or something. I run an excess SDT into daze rather than duress him after I brainstorm into the nuts and win the next turn due to him being out of cards in hand/countermagic with my life total relatively high.
Game 2 bring in 4 xantid's and 3 carpet of flowers for 3 duress, 1 rain of filth, 2 cabal rit's, and a ponder or something. He's on the play. I attempt turn 1 top which gets dazed after he landed a turn 1 vial. Turn 2 he drops double cursecatcher. I cantrip on my turn with brainstorm and fetch. He beats for 2 and drops a land and passes I think. I cast infernal tutor with a dark rit in hand with no mana open and he sacks a catcher to counter it. Next turn I do the same thing with infernal and he is again forced to counter it. Instead of running out xantid swarm with my one land I drop an excess SDT which gets dazed as I thought. Next turn I untap and cast xantid swarm which gets forced. I'm thinking he doesn't have any countermagic left so I go off via tutor chain into tendrils since my hand was pretty stacked at this point. Never saw a carpet of flowers. But who cares when you can just tutor chain into the win.

3-0 (6-0)

Round 4 v. the Mighty Quinn.
Game 1 is the grindiest game of magic ever. He mulled due to lack of mana and was stuck on 2 lands for a few turns while I opened on top and was topping away. When I duressed him I saw abeyance x2 and chant along with an enlightened tutor or something and took the chant. He tutored for top and cast top and passed it back. At this point I settle in for a very long 35 minute game due to him holding double abeyance and with that top he is able to find a grand total of 6! chant effects/abeyances and he gets a runed halo out naming tendrils during this time. So I doomsday after casting 3 LED's and one dark rit, draw with top, meditate, and get chanted which is fine with me since I included a doomsday in the pile for this very reason. He takes another turn due to meditate and while he has 2 runed halo's total in play I EoT chain of vapor one of them and he is finally tapped out due to him casting elspeth and using scrying sheets along with casting another runed halo so I say "Finally you're tapped out which is what I've wanted this entire game lol." So I EoT chain one of his halo's on my turn I untap with boatloads of mana because I have accumulated 6 lands this entire time. I drop an SDT, Doomsday again, chain of vapor my petal and pair of LED's for storm before bouncing his runed halo to win the game with tendrils. Sigh of relief after that one long game.

Here I misboard though and bring in 4 xantid swarm's for the duress's and a cantrip or something. I should have boarded in the 2 echoing truth's and 2 hurkyl's because he got scepter chant on turn 2 and I couldn't win on turn 3 with him tapped out so the rest of the game he kept upkeep chanting me and I couldn't find the chain of vapor even with sensei's top and a lot of fetchland activations. He ends up winning just as we go to time with elspeth. So we draw unintentionally since we can't play a game 3.

3-0-1 (7-1)

Round 5 v. New Horizons

Game one he wins because I can't assemble a winning hand through his stifles and wastes.

Game 2 he brings in meddling mage which is unexpected on my half (didn't board in slaughter pact). He names doomsday because he's a good player and has been playing legacy for years now. When I duressed him he didn't have force just a spell pierce and stifle or something. I took pierce. He draws off of canopy at one point and I don't have a white source but I do have an uncracked fetch. When I try to go for it I fetch which resolves I try to chant him he forces. I cast a dark rit and he forces again. Very good draws sir. I only had a basic island after the second force so I couldn't go off and he killed me next turn.

3-1-1 (7-3)

Top 8

I face RGb Aggro Loam with thoughtseize instead of chalice. Not sure if he's splashing white for swords or not I didn't see swords at all both games though. Game 1 he thoughtseizes me and takes doomsday which was my only business. I lead with top and pass. Turn 2 he plays confidant or something. I win with a meditate stack on turn 3 or something.

Game 2 he thoughtseizes me on turns 1 and 2 taking my business and leaving me with a boatload of mana. I brainstorm into the nuts though and IGG loop him out followed by a short tutor chain.

Top 4 splits so I get a savannah/$40 in cash since I sell it back. Overall I'm very pleased with the list though it's a really good list and the deck overall was phenomenal. Not once during the day did I feel like I could lose with the deck and that I always had a chance to win. Well done Nemavera the list is a beast. I also did play a basic swamp for those who think it's bad they may be right but I like for my lands to stick around and I really like 2 basic lands for this reason since they stay the entire game and it isn't hard to win with 2 lands in play with this monster of a deck. Overall I'm very satisfied with the list though. I never once brought in hurkyl's or reverent silence though I should have brought in hurkyl's against quinn so get out of the stupid scepter lock he assembled turn 2.

[GGoober]

I think probe fits better in the versions that ran street wraith / Idea's Unbound.

Mental Misstep still has a pretty strong effect vs. this deck. Almost every pile requires a 1cc spell to get to tendrils...

How so? I can think of multiple piles without 1cc to get to tendrils, even those assuming you have no brainstorm/top in play/hand (this is the most difficult scenario)

Using pulp's list:

You can cast Doomsday and if you have Burning Wish in hand, set up a pile of:
LED
LED
Infernal Tutor
IGG
Tendrils

Cast Burning Wish (1R) tutor Ideas Unbound, cast Ideas Unbound (UU), draw LED LED IT, play LED LED IT (1B) in response crack LEDs, tutor for IGG. Play IGG (2BB) replay LED LED IT, tutor for Tendrils, play Tendrils

Requires a startup mana of 1R+UU+1B, Burning Wish, Ideas Unbound, Infernal Tutor. Dodges 1cmc spells all day and a grand total storm of:
10.

The point is, this deck has the option, and there's definitely the option to play ENTIRELY around Misstep. This pile also beats CBTop if they only have 1cmc on top and are tapped out (e.g. if you duressed them while they're tapped out and they countered the Duress). It is probably the most difficult pile but it still beats the Misstep scenario because I assumed you are setting up piles without brainstorm/Top. If they do have a misstep, then you can also setup piles that bait the misstep with SDT and continue to chain off with IGG.


BTW, this deck is fucking beautiful. I'm going to start learning and practicing it seriously, because I think the deck can really win-through a lot of tough matchups, and when it can't, you know that you had the option to, and you're actually playing a game of thinking, instead of other combo decks that just storm off whenever they can and lose to itself. The deck's so beautiful because the power of Doomsday is really dependent on the list. E.g. If you choose to play 1 Street Wraith or Probe, which is otherwise terrible in other combo decks, the deck turns that random Street Wraith/Probe into a pile that actually uses it to win games rather than cycling cards for the sake of cycling. The deck makes every card look good, it makes every card feel like it's worth something in the deck.

[leegoo]

I wasn't saying EVERY pile imaginable was nulled by MM... just that a very large portion (and especially the cheaper piles) require a 1cc spell. I believe 99% of Cheezeburger's sheet has a 1cc spell in it.

and your example pile also requires BBB bringing it to BBBBUUR2 - with 9 mana I can sculpt some piles that beat a LOT of stuff, especially since (in this example) we're taking for granted they don't mmstep your dark ritual to get started (or you use cabal / just have a sh*tton of mana).

Again, I'm not saying MM is the end of the world... just that it's not something you want to see spoiled.

[GGoober]

But MM coming into the format is not something we can avoid. Basically, it's going to be a thorn for all combo decks, and a little more annoying for DDFT to mulligan more aggressively where they could have kept a mediocore hand with Top and sculpt (you can no longer do this unless you have a Duress + Top in opening hands).

To be fair, the deal with MM is that fundamentally it's still a 1-1. As long as you recognize this and pack enough 1-1 yourself e.g. Duress/Thoughtseize, you will be able to play around it.


I wasn't saying EVERY pile imaginable was nulled by MM... just that a very large portion (and especially the cheaper piles) require a 1cc spell. I believe 99% of Cheezeburger's sheet has a 1cc spell in it.

Then to be fair, most combo decks do need to resolve 1cmc spells to go off (TES/ANT/High Tide). No other storm deck has the ability to win through without 1cmc spells unless they luckily draw hands with LEDs and IGG/IT. This is the strength that I think DDFT has over other storm decks when MM is in Legacy. You do get your tops countered but you will probably lead with turn 1 Duress more often instead of turn 1 Tops. Every other storm deck has less chance to play against MM than DDFT does.

[leegoo]

I agree with that totally

[Pulp_Fiction]

I don't think your opponent looking through your deck is a bad thing. Once you play against them or someone sees what your playing they know you kill with Tendrils and Emrakul. But here is the thing, even though they get to look through your deck .. very few people can play this deck correctly, especially someone who is playing CB. So the fact that they look through your deck really will not help them since this is the level most are at: resolve Tendrils and play Shelldock to get Emrakul into play. Thats what everyone sees, knowing your protection spells doesn't help. They can count them .... so. But knowing I have Wipe Away in my deck will not change what card they name with Meddling Mage or what they name with Cabal Therapy.

I think it may actually work to my advantage, because they see cards they view as threats and board in a lot of things to handle JUST Emrakul and then they lose to storm, or they hate out Tendrils and forget I have access to Empty the Warrens. Most of my opponents know me at this point and don't look through my deck anymore. And when they do, they just sift through till they see SI and Emrakul and put it down. The fact that my opponent gets to look through my deck I find has little relevance.

@Mental Misstep: I think it is getting WAY overhyped. Time will tell, the card seems annoying at best and will snap some Tops off but ... hey I love that this may replace better cards like Spell Pierce and Stifle or even EE making EtW a LOT more effective. I think the card will punish people who are less thoughtful of their play (like having 2x Top in hand and leading with a Duress) that kind of thing but I am not 2 worried about it. Annoying yes, but good .... we will see.

[GGoober]

Pulp, especially with your lists with Burning Wishes, even if they started counting and trying to deduce your line of play, Burning Wish makes it hard for them to deduce if you're opting for a Tendrils/EtW/IGG path. I can even imagine yourself bluffing a Shelldock Pile and only to kill them off with lethal storm with BW and LEDs in your hand. I'm going to piece this up and test it out this weekend.

[Deviruchi]

After first 60 matches vs. decks playing MM I can say: we are not doomed at all (and I'm not in the same league as emidln, nemavera or Pulp_Fiction and probably never will). I hope people will start testing and stop writing about their feelings about MM.

[flrn]

After first 60 matches vs. decks playing MM I can say: we are not doomed at all (and I'm not in the same league as emidln, nemavera or Pulp_Fiction and probably never will). I hope people will start testing and stop writing about their feelings about MM.

The point about Mental Misstep is, that our tempo matchup sucks donkeyballs now. Nonblue decks playing that card aren't a concern. The way we play the Counterbalance Matchup postboard won't change either. Even Merfolk with Misstep should be still 50/50, since we were favored before. But against tempo decks our whole game plan is broken due to the printing of that card. Up until now we layed down lands in order to make their Daze's and Spell Pierce worse. We played Meditate over Ideas Unbound and boardet out most of our cc2 cards to blank their Spell Snare's. We played Chant's to drag out their Force of Will's. Now we can't do that anymore. All of the spells which are great against tempo decks are cc1 spells (Carpet of Flowers, Orim's Chant, Sensei's Divining Top). We can now either accept the fact that our tempo matchup has become way worse or we can come up with a new concept to fight that archetype.

[Dark Ritual]

Defense grid helps a lot. At least it was suggested in the SI thread as a way to beat MM. And defense grid isn't just limited to MM it stops a lot of countermagic as long as the opponent has less than 6 mana available we can win. We can also threaten with it on turn 2 before they drop a threat so we can have ample time to set up. MM is not the end of storm combo people it's decent against us but it isn't the nuts. Our tempo MU just got weaker sure but it isn't the worst if we SB properly. We could also maybe try city of solitude to stop control. Also nice about city of solitude is that it's good against CB. They have to proactively top on their turn to shut off only one type of CMC and we can fight through that if we know what CMC it is. If it's zero then we can sculpt a hand full of non artifact accel. If it's at one we just have to calculate that when we go off via doomsday since we can't recast a SDT we'll simply have to plan out how to properly reach 9 storm before casting tendrils or 8 storm if they have fetched twice. There is plenty of hate available for blue decks out there and even with stock lists we can still beat MM if we play around it right.

[leegoo]

@ FLRN - I think that may be a bit exaggerated... I think simply having so many 1 drops that thresh needs to answer is fine vs. MM. They do still have to draw the card which is a 4 of (if that many). Other than getting top/ponder countered on the play (which is bad, no doubt) I don't see it just throwing the matchup hugely in their favor. A large portion of the time it's going to be just like playing against daze (honestly, a good part of the time having to pay 1 more is pretty much effectively countering us going off that turn anyways, as very often I use every mana available going off)

Defense grid seems fine, City of solitude seems just a hair expensive, but might be ok as well. I think Abeyance is a passable replacement for chant/silence if MM is a huge problem. The card is good, and it's new, but after playing games against it, it doesn't dramatically change the way the matchup works beyond the fact that you need to be careful keeping hands that hinge on resolving a t1 cantrip (like 1land + top hands)

Also, the Emrakul + Show & Tell package isn't a terrible sb option against MM packing decks.

But again, I'm not saying MM isn't a good card against combo (and everything else)

[Pulp_Fiction]

Went 3-1-1 tonight with my regular list posted above. Made it 2 a top 8 out of .. 26-30ish people. Here is a brief description of the matchups and the piles I used.

Round 1: W/x Affinity (2-0)
g1: this guy never plays the same deck twice and since he played Blue control last week I assume aggro something this week. I am on the play and go turn 1 rit, DD. I build this pile: Brainstorm, Top, LED, IGG, Tendrils. I have Petal, Petal, LED, IT in hand ... simple IGG loop wins.

g2: He keeps a hand and slowly realizes he can't cast stuff (he is a good player and top 15rd the Atlanta SCG but he was already in a defeated mindframe at this point and didn't care). Turn 3 Meditate stack: Meditate, Petal, LED, LED, BW.

Round 2: RGb Zoo (2-1)
g1: I mull to 6 and keep an awkward hand. Stall after a Brainstorm whiffs and lose shortly after. Probably should have gone to 5 but I put him on Belcher (after seeing Tinder Wall and Taiga as he was basically showing me his deck while shuffling) and kept a hand w Duress. Player error on this one but I also just couldn't draw what i needed.

EDIT: I am typing this on my tiny notebook in my basement so I apoligize for the spelling errors. I am regretably not drunk posting this because most people on here know how much I like posting drunk. Sadly I am sober typing this, contrary to like 30% of my posts here :)

EDIT: I apologize for the spelling errors but I typed this on my notebook in my basement and the keys are tiny as hell. Regretably I am not drunk, and everyone on here knows how much I love updating this site drunk, but unfortunately I am quite sober, contrary to 30% of my other posts on this site :)

g2: I mull to 5 ecause I apparently don't play lands. This game needs some strange description and is a weird combination of luck and skill. Everytime I look with Top I can't find a shuffle effect or an action spell. So on turn 3 after missing on a BS, I drop Shelldock to look at a fresh set of cards and stick Emrakul under it (knew it was there after BS showed me Emrakul, DD, Tendrils). I CAN NOT FIND ANOTHER BLACK SOURCE TO CAST DD. I have in play: Top, Shelldock, Island, Sea, and Volcanic Island .... end of turn 6 he has 8 permanents and I am at 3, he is tapped out. A quick look with Top reveals a fetchland .... god damn, 1/3 of the deck wins at this point and I couldn't find my 3rd black source (Petal in hand). Play fetch and go into the think tank. I have never encountered this situation before but .... I realized I can build a pass the turn Meditate stack w Emrakul! I have 4 lands in play and enough 2 win. Play DD and build: Meditate, Petal, Rit, Rit, Tendrils and activate Shelldock with my hindering Island. Take my next turn, draw Meditate, swing for 15, and cast Meditate into a lethal Tendrils. This was just strange but it worked.

g3: I open: Brainstorm, LED, DRit, Petal, Island, Infernal Tutor, Cabal Ritual .... not sure if he boarded in Mindbreaks so I decide to Brainstorm and see: LED, Duress, land .... yep, turn 1 win with protection, turns out he didn't board in Traps. This is why you play combo; its strong most of the time and sometimes it just broken.

Round 3 - Bant Aggro (Thor) (2-1)
g1: Duress shows its clear and a turn 3-5 Meditate stack takes it easily.

g2: He rips like a pro!!!!! I get to a point where I try and combo off with a lot of rituals and BW for EtW (after Snare and Force) and he shows me a Spelll Pierce taking me to RRR floating ... eh, well played and drawn sir :)

g3: Similar to the first. Duress gets forced on like turn 5-7 and he has 2 cards in hand and is tapped out. I decide to go for it and say "alright Thor, show me Force and I scoop" .... he can't and I build a standard Meditate stack without BW and a few extra mana just in case of Daze or something weird (Meditate, Petal, Rit, Rit, Tendrils).

Round 4 Merfolk (1-2)
I get paired down since there were 3 people who were 3-0 and get my worst matchup. This right here is a good example of why I can't play TES, I don't have enought luck. I have to play a combo deck with Top to fight through the bullshit and force a win out.

g1: Mull to 6. Turn 3 Duress reveals nothing and I build (Meditate, LED, LED, Petal, BW).
g2: Mull to 5. Apparently I don't play lands and don't draw relevant cards.
g3: Mull to 5. Lands again .... wtf. Turn 1 Top reveals NOTHING. Turn 3 Brainstorm whiffs ... everything just went wrong. Naturally my opponents never have to mull and the deck curves out with double Cursecatcher, Lord and Daze, Pierce, and 2 other cards in hand ... I try to combo off but have no chance. He counters the fuck out of my DRit and ... nothing else. This is the level of luck I have, explains why TES does not work for me.

Round 5 - Painter
ID
Another of my buddies and we have a great chance of making top 8 but neither of us much care nor do we want to knock eachother out.

Top 8
Split between everyone, there is a tornado coming in Atlanta and everyone wants to leave. I left, but it is not in my nature to go home in times of crisis, fuck no, I went with a few buddies to the bar for $5 buckets. If a tornado hits, I certainly better be in a place with some damn beers.

I use my new store credit for 3x Abeyances just because they may spike because everyone is shitting their pants about Mental Misstep and I hope they may spike, but it would also be nice to have some. All things being said, I have seriously been giving City of Solitude some thought. Here is why I like it so much, it turns off counters sure ... BUT it turns off Wasteland and Karakas as well. So if you want to play Cloud of Faeries and build an Emrakul stack, this cards turns BOTH of them off. The problem though is that your opponent can still slow roll the Karakas and you just deck yourself. But, I think it really may have merit since it also answers CB by turning off Top and whatever Brainstorm shenanigans your opponent may do. Now I am not saying its good because I have not tested it .... at all. But I like the concept of Abeyance and City simply because of what they enable.

The more I think about it the more I like it, because you still get in a swing with Emrakul and if you build this pile: SI, Emrakul, Top, LED, Burning Wish and if you have 2ish lands in play ... its an auto win regardless of whether they bounce Emrakul or not. City of Solitude could make Cloud of Faeries good and maybe playing a singleton Stifle/Trickbind in the board could be worth it. I am just trying to throw out some discussion here because, for some reason I totally forgot both these cards turn off activated abilities. If MM turns out to be stupid good against combo (which I highly doubt) then we need to find relevant answers to it. And the more I started to think about City of Solitude the more I liked it. Again, this is all in theory, but I am really intrigued at the possibilities of playing this card. The main problem I see is that I have to go to a UBg build to maintain a semi-positive Stax/Stompy matchup and I am not ready to give up on Burning Wish any time soon ... its just 2 good. City of Solitude and Abeyance are certainly some food for thought though.

[Scopeye]

I have been thinking about city of solitude and chants as well but I don't know if the mana base can handle it because I am also unwilling to drop the burning wishes they are too good.

One way would be to go for more rainbowlands but that would mean less number of fetch lands for suffle effects so it might hurt the deck.

[DerFern]

I have been thinking about city of solitude (...)
seriously?! Most of the time you´re playing 10 fecthlands and 4 SDT. Wouldn´t that slow you down way to much?

[PunkRocker1134]

What do you guys think about relegating the Emrakul-Shelldock combo to the board. I found during my very basic preliminary testing and goldfishing that I only seem to want it against Counterbalance, and is only used in desperate measures elsewise. Am I doing something wrong here? When do you guys find yourselves most using that pile?

[leegoo]

What do you guys think about relegating the Emrakul-Shelldock combo to the board. I found during my very basic preliminary testing and goldfishing that I only seem to want it against Counterbalance, and is only used in desperate measures elsewise. Am I doing something wrong here? When do you guys find yourselves most using that pile?

It's only in my board. Although honestly I'm more in the thought of wanting it main... mainly to free up more SB slots and make g1 vs Cbalance better.

It's understandable not to want it main though... drawing Emrakul is probably the weakest thing the deck can do.

[PunkRocker1134]

Leegoo going from Pulp's list, what would you main over it? I feel like one more Tutor and ponder would be best.

[leegoo]

@ Punk

Mine is the German list with a bit of a changed manabase (still not 100% on whether running the non-blue fetches and basic swamp is worth it or not... it's been relevant a couple of times in testing)

Main Deck:

4 Brainstorm
2 Cabal Ritual
1 Chain of Vapor
4 Dark Ritual
4 Doomsday
3 Duress
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
1 Meditate
4 Orim's Chant
4 Ponder
1 Rain of Filth
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Tendrils of Agony

1 Bayou
1 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
2 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard:
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Echoing Truth
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Shelldock Isle
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Wipe Away
4 Xantid Swarm

I'm not necessarily advocating this list over the versions with Burning Wish, as wish makes getting lethal storm a lot easier and gives you plenty of action (although this deck isn't necessarily lacking action cards like U/B ANT is) I do like having a "full" sideboard to work with though... personal preference. Although sometimes just making 10 goblins is REALLY good.

Also been going back and forth on the number of chants/silence. Hasn't really mattered yet in testing so I'd say if you don't have chants there's not much incentive to buy them.

[B.C.]

My current list is almost the same as leegoo, but I'm not playing white, so:

-3 Orim's Chant
-1 Ponder
+4 Thoughtseize
- Bayou, Scrubland, Tundra
+ Island, Swamp, Underground

My sideboard looks like:

4 Xantid Swarm
2 Deathmark
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rebuild
1 Bayou
2 Spell Pierce
1 Llawan
1 Shelldock
1 Emrakul

[Namida]

Are there any advantages to keeping the deck UB instead of splashing the third color?