[Deck] Fetchland Tendrils [Archive] - Page 8

Pulp_Fiction

10-27-2011, 02:26 AM

YES!!!! The hybrids are back!! I took this deck to a top 8 at my local tournament tonight and only lost after keeping a marginal 6 card hand ... I ran the blue gauntlet and feel this has the tools to beat literally anything thrown at it. After nemavera's success I decided to give the hybrids another try and ... damn, this list is SAVAGE. Here is a short report of what happened:

4 Duress
3 Thoughtseize

4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Ponder
1 Meditate
1 Ad Nauseam

3 Infernal Tutor
2 Doomsday
1 Personal Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony

4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox
1 Rain of Filth

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Scalded tarn
2 Underground Sea
3 Swamp
2 Island

3 Darkblast
2 Needle
2 Wipe Away
2 DD
1 SI
1 IGG
1 Echoing Truth
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Emrakul

Round 1 - Mono-U Infect (whienot)
g1 - Our decks shit on us but I have plenty of mana and discard ... I can't find top and eventually just EOT Meditate and get there next turn with DD and this pile: Meditate, Petal, Rit, Rit, Tendrils.

SB: -2 Ponder, -1 Personal Tutor, -1 DD, -1 Rain of Filth and +3 Darkblast, +2 Needle. (in hindsight I should have just boarded in Darkblast and Wipe Away, let him blow his wad on a single creature then bounce it ...)

g2 - He drops Needle on Top and its my only cantrip ..... FUCK. I have Darkblast and Needle on Inkmoth Nexus, stalemate. We play draw go for like 5 turns. Cantrip after cantrip misses and I eventually get so much mana I am able to cast AdN, get Flusterstormed, pay 4 mana, then reveal IT, LED, LED, Petal, Rit ... GG.

Round 2 - White Weenie
g1 - Turn 2 Meditate stack ..

SB: -1 AdN, -2 Chrome Mox and +1 IGG, +2 Wipe Away (assume Canonist)

g2 - I open LED, LED, Petal, Rit, IT, Brainstorm, Duress and draw Tendrils!!! For the sake of Canonist on turn 2 (she kept her opening 7) I assume its coming, but I'm not sure about Mindbreak Trap and I decide to say fuck it and go for it ... I never open turn 1s. Petal, BS hits a land and sticks Tendrils back in the deck and a quick check with Duress shows I'm safe while IGG loop takes it down.

Round 3 - Merfolk
g1 - He mulls to 6 and keeps a hand with Pierce, Force and some dudes. Turn 3 Duress clears force, I have Top in play and LED, LED, IT in hand ... simple Meditate stack VIA DD gets there.

SB: -2 Chrome Mox, -1 AdN, -2 IT and +2 DD +3 Darkblast

g2 - I Darkblast his t1 Cursecatcher and play around Spell Pierce waiting till turn 3 to try for Top. I am repeatedly hit by Mutavault but setup my hand with Top and on turn 5-6 check if its safe with Thoughtseize seeing Pierce, 2x Spell Snare, and Wasteland. Get rid of the Pierce and comfortably win with another Meditate stack.

It should be noted, this manabase is sick as fuck. The guy playing this is one of my buddies and after the match we were talking about playing 2 colors and how the basics just fucked him. He was slowrolling Wasteland both games but ... it didn't matter. I had enough mana each time to easily play through Pierce and Daze. I feel like this matchup g1 is really 50/50, just depends on the hands of both decks. But after boarding it is just awesome. Now, I am not 100% on the Darkblast yet, but, when we were talking, it filters Top, kills his early threats, and if necessary, I can play the pseudo control role and minimize damage while setting up my kill. I am not certain this is the correct call, but it never hurts to try these things out. Maybe Needle would be better naming Mutavault, not sure, further testing needs to be done but for now, I really like Darkblast.

Round 4 - UW Stoneforge
g1 - He concedes after he has a SB card in the main.

SB: -2 Chrome Mox, -2 IT, -1 AdN, -2 Ponder and +3 Darkblast, +2 DD, +2 Needle

g2 - I mull to 6 and keep a VERY marginal hand. I miss on cantrips twice and once he drops Stoneforge I am forced to go for the combo. Duress a turn earlier showed it was safe ... he Brainstorms into the Force ... eh, happens.

g3 - We both mull to 6 and he keeps a hand with a single Wasteland and Force + blue cards. I miss on every single cantrip and fumble around trying to assemble something. On like turn 6-7 I have so much acceleration its insane. With Meditate + Tendrils in hand I just fire it off and get there. Both our decks failed on us miserably .... I actually shuffled away Tendrils with Ponder then ripped it off the top ... my deck just fucked me a little less than his. Can't beat luck.

I haven't gone 4-0 in a while I easily make Top 8 in first position and my buddy who didn't drop but left to go drink early makes top 8. Really? Since he isn't there the next guy takes his spot. My friend was playing Enchantress ... I would fucking destroy him with ease ... but instead ....

Round 5 - 4c Counterbalance
g1 - I Duress turn 2 and see the coast is clear, now, this is before I activated Top and didn't know I had a Dark Rit. Turn 3 I go for AdN with DRit + Filth and he had topdecked Counterspell. Fuck me. I know he had Daze so I was setting up the turn 3 all along but ... nature of the god damn beast.

SB: -2 IT, -1 AdN, -2 Chrome Mox, -1 Ponder and +2 DD, +1 SI, +1 Emrakul, +2 Wipe Away

g2 - I mull to 6 and keep a hand of something like 4 lands, Top, Dark Rit. Should have gone to 5 but ... fuck it. Top gets KGripped on turn 3 and I am never even in the game. Luck simply decided this match. Not much I could do, mull to 5 is so random, I figured my 6 was decent. This is a matchup I should win easily 60ish% of the time since Emrakul just owns them. But its whatever, sometimes u just don't get there. We played another game afterward and I Thoughtseized t1 then cast DD the next turn ... this is how the match usually goes ... this result just fell in the 30ish% category.

Its all good though. I am so happy the Hybrids are viable again. This deck is seriously just the nuts. It is capable of running the gauntlet and has the tools to beat basically anything in the format. Now it should be noted, playing Ideas Unbound over Meditate would have lost me almost every game againt a blue deck. After board when I turn into DDFT, Meditate wins fucking games. That simple. This list plays through Spell Snare I ran into it MULTIPLE TIMES. I never once had a spell countered by it. I keep a single IT in for threat density or to double up rituals or something but ... after board I have no weakness to the card and everyone is running them.

Also, playing 2 colors and fetching basics was that good. Against all the idiots playing Stoneforge BS its just great. Now, I won't say playing 2 colors is the best thing right now, but by doing so u nullify Spell Snare entirely and ignore Wasteland. That is unbelievably solid.

Chikenbok

10-27-2011, 02:35 AM

I've always felt that meditate, despite its cost (well not really because sometimes finding double blue is bizarre in my list) is better simply because of the fact that it gets around snare, which everyone in the world ought be playing right now because of SFM and Snapcaster.

On another note, I think that if one does run white (like nev) for 7 silence effects than playing IU is totally fine seeing as, well, if any of them resolve the game is over. Spell snare is pretty useless after you've been silenced.

I'm going to continue to be stubborn and play with a trop and a bayou in my 60 for swarms. If not strictly for the fact that I love seeing them attacking for 0.. I just.. I don't know, emotional attachment. But I'm still sticking with 4 IT 4 DD in my list. Perhaps, I'll cut a DD, Filth, and CoV for 2 petals and an Ad Naus and see what happens, but I really hate that card.

Pulp_Fiction

10-27-2011, 02:54 AM

As do I. AdN is random in nature and DD is a calculated route to assured victory. BUT, sometimes ur hand gets ripped to shreds and u have no outs. Whats so great about the hybrids is that they are capable of attacking from numerous different angles.

Now, I absolutely hate ANT and think Ari's list with GTutor is a total joke. I have never once successfully tested that deck. And to this day, I don't understand how he wins, the deck is so bad its almost comical. Playing a 3cc Tutor that costs 3 life and $150+ and doesn't win the game that turn ... really?

But, we don't need another TES/AdN/DDFT depate. Point is, this list is solid as hell. Playing Chants is fine, but 7x+ Duress effects is almost always better. Sometimes Chant is that good, no lies, but I still view it as Past in Flames, in certain situations it is broken as hell, but Duress/Thoughtseize is always good.

I think the most important thing though is Ideas Unbound. Every blue deck I played tonight ran SS. This is the reason I don't run Burning Wish in DD is that they are all prepared for it and run SS + Blue Blast on occassion. This list avoids SS entirely, which most decks board in ... u don't care. That is a damn feat in itself.

Silent Requiem

10-27-2011, 04:48 AM

flrn

10-27-2011, 04:55 AM

1) When does this deck typically goldfish? Is turn three a reasonable starting point, or should I be aiming for turn two?

Usually, you simply go off, the turn before your opponent kills you. Turn 3 is reasonable, when goldfishing.

2) Is there agreement over whether Meditate or Ideas Unbound is the better card for building piles? It seems to me that IU requires one less mana to get started, but perhaps there's more to it that that. Does the answer change depending on whether you are running IT or BW?

Ideas Unbound enables cheaper piles, that usually create the same amount or a higher amount of storm than Meditate. You run Meditate, when you are afraid of losing to Spell Snare.

3) Is there general agreement about how many colours the deck should run? The four colour version I'm testing seems vulnerable to wasteland, and getting the exact color requirements seems a difficult if I want to go off with protection.

What Version are you running? If you get used to playing this deck, you usually don't lose to Wastelands. Even in the 10 Fetchland, 6 Duals, 1 Basic Island version, I didn't lose to Wastelands.

Bahamuth

10-27-2011, 06:11 AM

Most lists should be able to fish on turn 3 quite consistently. Probe/IU lists are a little faster because you don't need a LED to win.

The main reason to run IU is the fact that it enables double cantrip piles, whereas Meditate can't usually do that. Example:

SDT in play, Probe in hand. Cast DD, building:

LED
IU
LED
LED
Burning Wish

Probe for LED, cast/sac LED for UUU, tap SDT for IU, cast IU (U) drawing SDT LED LED, cast SDT (0), cast 2x LED, sac LEDs for RRRBBB, tap SDT for Wish, Wish for ToA.

This pile enables you to win for 0 mana post DD. If you don't have SDT, but for example double Probe, the pile costs 1.

I think your choices are either to run with IU/Chant or with Meditate/Duress because of the prevalence of Spell Snare.

Final Fortune

10-27-2011, 06:39 AM

Is there any reason to be running the Emakrul/Shelldock/Faerie MD right now? I always thought the versatility of Doomsday came from being able to just resolve it with no set up and end the game on the following turn. That pile seems really good with IU and Probe fwiw.

John Cox

10-27-2011, 08:38 AM

The Shelldock/Emrakul pile deals with counterbalance really well because there's nothing to counter post doomsday. For some reason there's not as much counterbalance running around as expected, so Shelldock/Emrakul may not be the best choice right now.

donash

10-27-2011, 09:12 AM

Hello,

This is my first post on The Source, and sorry if my English is not very good.
First time, congratulations to Nemavera for his performance in Amsterdam !!!!!!!!!!
I am a player of Ant and TES deck. And I try to play "DD Fetchland Tendrils" for 3 weeks.
Congratulations on the list of Nemavera, it is great to play, really nice and balanced.

There are just two things that I have not fully understood on this list:

- Why not take a "Tendrills of Agony" maindeck ? Because sometimes you do not have enough mana to go look in the side with BW ?
- The second point I would like to know what you change when you get the plan Emrakul ? Which cards enter (Emrakul, sheldock, Others?) And what cards come out of MD ?

Again congratulations for performance.

Dark Ritual

10-27-2011, 01:23 PM

Tendrils in the maindeck in a burning wish shell is usually just a dead slot/draw. While burning wish is almost always good sans when you draw multiples or something but he only runs 3 BW so the chances are slightly less. Only reason to run tendrils MD is to avoid surgical extraction/extirpate/GY hate in case they discard your tendrils or something.

I think Bahamuth is right in that you either run with all chant effects and IU right now or you run discard spells + meditate. Chant effects are king at resolving IU while duress and seize are good at getting counterbalance out of there pre emptively so you don't have to deal with that annoying lock.

Shelldock emrakul is also good against reanimator IMO; that MU is difficult for me without shelldock because usually they just jin you out but if you go turn 1 DD it's hard to lose unless they angel of despair/terastodon your shelldock.

Chikenbok

10-27-2011, 02:24 PM

I'm just getting into DD, and eventually I'll be reading the whole thread. However, I do have a few preliminary questions about the deck, if nobody minds.

1) When does this deck typically goldfish? Is turn three a reasonable starting point, or should I be aiming for turn two?

2) Is there agreement over whether Meditate or Ideas Unbound is the better card for building piles? It seems to me that IU requires one less mana to get started, but perhaps there's more to it that that. Does the answer change depending on whether you are running IT or BW?

3) Is there general agreement about how many colours the deck should run? The four colour version I'm testing seems vulnerable to wasteland, and getting the exact color requirements seems a difficult if I want to go off with protection.

As already been answered, the deck wins when it has to, but turn 3 is completely reasonable.

The great Med/IU debate is scattered over the last million pages, on the storm board, its everywhere - You'll see plenty of people arguing over either or but its really up to you as to which one you want to play. I play meditate as a preference as its what I 'grew up on' and it dodges snare which is everywhere in my life right now.

Regarding colors it comes down to something that has also been extensively discussed - do you want to play chant (only reason to play white), do you want to play burning wish, pulverize, and now EtW (reasons for red), or do you want to play Swarm and Carpet of Flowers (Green) - I happen to play UBg with 7 discard spells, no chants, and a full set of swarms in the board but, like everyone will tell you - the greatest thing about this deck is while the shell is there, how you want to play, and how it will treat you is up to you and the deck.

best of luck

End3r000

10-27-2011, 04:07 PM

I've never really played DD outside of Vintage, but have you seen the new Laboratory Maniac DD deck in said format? Instead of Emrakul why not just win? If my question is noobish then ignore it, but it seems you don't even have to worry about removal game 2.

Namida

10-27-2011, 05:38 PM

There have been a few debates on this already, but let me ask you: What do you think the merits are of playing Laboratory Maniac over Emrakul?

End3r000

10-28-2011, 03:00 AM

Mainly you don't have to wait a turn and you're not depending on attacking at all. You just set up a pile that draws the whole thing and allows you to play maniac. I just think that's more reliable than having to pass or attack. Just an idea.

Bahamuth

10-28-2011, 04:24 AM

donash

10-28-2011, 05:52 AM

Tendrils in the maindeck in a burning wish shell is usually just a dead slot/draw. While burning wish is almost always good sans when you draw multiples or something but he only runs 3 BW so the chances are slightly less. Only reason to run tendrils MD is to avoid surgical extraction/extirpate/GY hate in case they discard your tendrils or something.

Thank you for the answer.

After testing it is true that BW did not fail.
I was just wondering if this does not have an opportunity to "stack" or wins.

Otherwise I think the game is really fun to play.

I do not master yet quite the game Emrakul / SI, but it will come by doing.

End3r000

10-28-2011, 07:29 AM

Emrakul has this little thing that says it can't be countered. These two wins aren't even comparable.

While it's true I forgot that SDI casts Emrakul netting you the extra turn, it doesn't always result in a win. You're depending on the fact that you connect and for that matter that you even swing. It was just an idea considering Laboratory Maniac can be an instant win. This is also probably more effective in Vintage where removal is less played.

flrn

10-28-2011, 08:49 AM

Laboratory Maniac sucks. The card only improves matchups, you are goin to win very likely anyway. On top of that, no one boards their removal out against us, because they have so many dead cards, that some have to stay in. So most opponents will keep some removal in, because they could be expecting us to bring in Xantid Swarm or Dark Confidant.

Shelldock Isle/Emrakul gets only boarded in, in blue matchups where the opponents doesn't have any Wasteland's. That's most Counterbalance lists and lately a lot of Snapcaster Mage builds. And while those decks make up some numbers of the metagame, those numbers are not good enough to justify playing dead cards in your main.

End3r000

10-28-2011, 09:16 AM

It was just an idea since I had seen a vintage list using it as an end result of their piles off of DD. I don't have much experience with the deck so I'll take the word of someone more experienced than I.

Chikenbok

10-29-2011, 07:39 PM

After Nem's success at the GP this is the list I've been running and I must say I'm madly in love with the random ad naus. I almost always run it out eot and rarely use it as its played in ANT (mana, mana, mana, IT, Ad naus, etc).

I'd like to find room for 1 more petal so I'm considering cutting the MD rain of filth.. but its so good sometimes. Like I've said before, I run the UBg list, splashing green just for the board - its been working out real well testing against all versions of tempo, and aggro. Yeah, the dark snap thresh variants are rough but I'm still running about 50 against them. The list (for input):

4 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
3 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Doomsday
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Ponder
2 Flooded Strand
1 Meditate
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Duress
1 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Bayou
2 Swamp
3 Thoughtseize
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Rain of Filth
1 Ad Nauseam
SB: 2 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Wipe Away
SB: 1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
SB: 1 Shelldock Isle
SB: 4 Xantid Swarm
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 1 Slaughter Pact

Jonas's War

10-29-2011, 11:19 PM

Hey guys, I'm new to the site but not to combo :) I was wondering if someone could point me to some decent ddft videos?

Thx in advance!

Namida

10-30-2011, 12:27 AM

If you look through the thread, there are a few clips by someone who was a new DDFT player going through dailies. He's not the best and he makes a few mistakes, but it should give you a better understanding of how to play the deck.

Chikenbok

10-30-2011, 01:46 AM

Hey guys, I'm new to the site but not to combo :) I was wondering if someone could point me to some decent ddft videos?

Thx in advance!

http://www.mefeedia.com/feeds/247442/mattiasnl

I'm sure these are the videos Nam to which Nam was referring.

P-E

10-30-2011, 08:24 AM

Hi all
i'm new to this deck ^^
i really like it , it's so fun
wondering if there is a pass turn pile win without igg (even side)?
i'm trying nemavera's build at the moment ^^

also i need some more board helps, most of time i just remove one petal and ad nauseam to board in SI/Emy plan against affinity or other decks that can't handle it
what are the spot that can be side out ? i mean side out a top or ponder scares me a lot ^^

Mostly_Harmless

10-30-2011, 08:35 AM

The Emrakul plan probably isn't best suited to matches like affinity. It's really meant for blue decks like counterbalance or snapblade that have good answers to the storm plan, but not so much against shelldock. Against affinity, emrakul is probably too slow to matter.

Against the aforementioned blue decks, I would probably cut Ad Nauseam and Plains for Emrakul and Shelldock Isle (assuming you're running nemavera's list). My next cut would probably be a Ponder (for a wipeaway, for instance). The Ad Nauseam clearly needs to go, and we're boarding in shelldock under the assumption that wasteland isn't an issue, so having a basic plains isn't a big deal. You probably want a petal over an extra land, since the goal is usually to fire off a quick Doomsday or Empty the Warrens.

Edit: You're right to be nervous about cutting top; I don't think I've ever boarded it out (although no cows are sacred). Ponder, however, is not terribly important. That and Git Probe are easy to shave if necessary.

P-E

10-30-2011, 09:08 AM

John Cox

10-30-2011, 05:19 PM

thanks a lot for the answers ^^

played this on cockatrice all the day , i understand better how it works now
wondering if helm/grapeshot/freeze is better than emy/SI plan in a MU with lots of maverick , folk , junk etc

In that meta I would play helm + Grapeshot over Shelldock + Emrakul due to the prevalence of wasteland.

nedleeds

11-01-2011, 04:07 PM

I think the most important thing though is Ideas Unbound. Every blue deck I played tonight ran SS. This is the reason I don't run Burning Wish in DD is that they are all prepared for it and run SS + Blue Blast on occassion. This list avoids SS entirely, which most decks board in ... u don't care. That is a damn feat in itself.

That's the 'our store' metagame though, the same 3 dudes pretty much play the near identical Stonebatterskull deck every week (you know who they are). In addition we only got 18 this past week, and Brian brought CB w/ snare so you had great odds of running into it in our little pond. Our meta is hardly indicative of the scg brainstorm festival. I top 4'ed with Slivers for christs sake ;)

Water_Wizard

11-02-2011, 02:20 AM

My plan against GW Maverick (with the list above) was to board out four Silence and one copy of Gitaxian Probe to bring in Chain of Vapor, Echoing Truth, Rebuild, Helm of Awakening and Grapeshot. Helm/Grapeshot allows you to ignore Gaddock Teeg and you can even play through Canonist, if you do a pass the turn pile. Keeping the chants in serves as a protection suite against incoming Mindbreak Traps/Extractions and the ability to chantwalk them with kicker if needed. I'm sorry, new player and maybe I'm not seeing the obvious here, but how do you play through Canonist with a pass the turn pile?

In Nemavera's intro to his tournament report, he says
Cause my metagame in nuremberg in germany is filled with Maverick playing 4 Mindbreak Traps, 3-4 Surgical Extraction, 0-2 Enlightened Tutor and 0-2 Ethersworn Canonists + maindeck 4 Zenith, Gaddock Teeg + 3 Mindcensor, I had Helm + Grapeshot in my sideboard at first, cause you can kill them even if they have double Mother of Runes + Teeg + Mindbreak Trap in hand, which happened while testing. In his example, is this because Teeg prevents the Mindbreak Trap from being played? Stupid rules question, but does Helm lower the cost to 3 so it may be played under the Teeg? I think not, but just double checking.

Namida

11-02-2011, 02:32 AM

I'm sorry, new player and maybe I'm not seeing the obvious here, but how do you play through Canonist with a pass the turn pile?

Helm of Awakening and Sensei's Divining Top are artifacts. Cast Doomsday and make a pile that includes them. Cast Helm of Awakening, loop two Tops infinitely because they cost 0 mana to replay, and cast Grapeshot as your one non-artifact spell for your turn.

John Cox

11-02-2011, 12:12 PM

Helm of Awakening and Sensei's Divining Top are artifacts. Cast Doomsday and make a pile that includes them. Cast Helm of Awakening, loop two Tops infinitely because they cost 0 mana to replay, and cast Grapeshot as your one non-artifact spell for your turn.

It requires a top out or a cantrip the turn you cast doomsday also.

I'm sorry, new player and maybe I'm not seeing the obvious here, but how do you play through Canonist with a pass the turn pile?

In Nemavera's intro to his tournament report, he says In his example, is this because Teeg prevents the Mindbreak Trap from being played? Stupid rules question, but does Helm lower the cost to 3 so it may be played under the Teeg? I think not, but just double checking.

It has nothing to do with the casting cost of the mindbreak trap, in that example all that hate could easily be directed against you. The grapeshot win costs less than four is all artifact other than grapeshot, and if you cantrip into the pile with a brainstorm or IU you can play around Mindbreak Trap.

hjalte

11-02-2011, 04:38 PM

I'm sorry, new player and maybe I'm not seeing the obvious here, but how do you play through Canonist with a pass the turn pile?

It requires a top out or a cantrip the turn you cast doomsday also.

It was a pass the turn pile, so you don't need a cantrip... A cantrip would also prevent you from casting another non-artifact spell, aka. a kill spell.

John Cox

11-02-2011, 05:18 PM

It was a pass the turn pile, so you don't need a cantrip... A cantrip would also prevent you from casting another non-artifact spell, aka. a kill spell.

so if the pile is
top
top
helm
brainfreeze / grapeshot

How do you draw both the helm and top? I get that you draw one on your draw step but without a draw effect played on the turn before, 20+ mana, or a top in play, that doesn't work.

GGoober

11-02-2011, 05:32 PM

Helm piles don't always requiring SDTx2 to be in the DDFT pile. If you want to play through canonist with a PTT pile, you need a SDT in play, that way you can set up for the kill next turn. Otherwise you would need 2 turns to draw your way out, and if that's the case, some other pile would function better (pile with Chain of Vapor).

emidln

11-02-2011, 05:56 PM

A rather classic helm pile for canonist involves going off with SDT in play so that you can Brainstorm on their turn and then play out helm + 2x sdt into infinite storm into led into grapeshot/brain freeze.

ReinVos

11-02-2011, 06:46 PM

I'm not familiar with this deck but I'm sure you don't need brainstorm in the equation.

If you already have a Top you can draw your Helm, then draw the second Top with your first drop and repeat the process. Then, when you have a billion storm, you draw with Top, then pay 1 to spin the top, put the grapeshot on top and then draw it. You'll need a Top and four mana available. Two for the Helm, one to rearrange cards and one red for the Grapeshot.

So the order from top is then:

Helm
Top
Grapeshot/Brain Freeze
x
x

This works, right?

DukeDemonKn1ght

11-03-2011, 02:27 AM

ThomasDowd

11-03-2011, 04:58 AM

Chikenbok

11-03-2011, 03:16 PM

so the lists everyone's pushing right now are the UBr(burning wish), the 7 chant GP list, and the "german" list. yes? are those the most "stable"? as in I can play against real decks and have a shot?

I'm tired of playing reanimator and losing to garbage, and tired of getting blown out by tempo decks with other storm variants(ANT both 3 color versions, TES) and am looking for a serious time commitment.

if you guys have page numbers( here or storm boards) that would rule, otherwise i'll dig them up here or on storm boards. just trying to get something to goldfish/ get comfortable with. learn the patterns before i play it against humans/ with interactions.

In all reality you need to start at page 1 of both this forum, and the storm boards and start up on yer reading. It's something we've all (with the exception of the founding fathers, you know who you are) had to do when beginning DDFT. There are countless pages and countless arguments regarding which list is the best, which colors are the best, etc. In fact, right now on the storm boards there is some discussion over colors with data regarding their matchups.

Some people will tell you to start with the UB version running 16 cantrips and 4 engines + IGG, others will tell you to start with burning wish in the list. Personally, I don't play BW so its not an issue. I'm still running UBw(g) - because let's be honest, chants + swarms + CoF.. I don't know how this deck can lose to tempo which seems like the only DTB right now.

emidln

11-04-2011, 12:51 PM

SDT in play

Brainstorm
SDT
Helm
LED
Grapeshot/Brain Freeze

The reasoning behind this pile is that it's cheaper to win the game with. It requires BBB with U extra as a land/petal on your combo turn that you can use on your opponent's turn. You Brainstorm on their turn (avoiding Canonist) to draw helm, sdt, sdt, putting back a blank + sdt. you draw sdt #2, then play helm for 2 colorless along with both SDTs. you pay 1 to rearrange then cycle SDTs (you drew LED on the first SDT). Play SDT and break for Red/Blue, rearrange to put Grapeshot/Brain Freeze on top, draw it with your last SDT, then play Grapeshot/BrainFreeze. This is a total of 3 colorless the turn after you Doomsday to win the game.

Malakai

11-05-2011, 08:27 PM

Togores

11-08-2011, 07:52 AM

Hello, started last weekend plaing the gp ddft version. and after being a week testing piles and so i went here in madrid to the saturday event and won with that amazing deck, I lost 0 rund and only drawed against counterbalance.

After plaing it i changed on the gp list the 3rd ponder for tendrills because in lot of situations i needed to play burning but my oponent had or could have surgical/extirpate and if i play it i would loss, so a tendrills went main deck.

and with this change i have to questions.

1st this hand comes some times so may be its posible to win turn 2 with it.

underground
undergound
2 fetchland
doomsday
ritual
brainstorm or Ponder
+
fetch

its said we started that game and the fetch is the card we draw on turn 2, is there any pile that we can winn starting with the brainstorm or may be ponder on turn 2? we know that the oponenent is plaing a deck without counters or disruption cards, so we can go off without problems.

and second question, is it posible to make piles of only 4 or less cards?

thanks^^

Maxe

11-08-2011, 08:05 AM

After plaing it i changed on the gp list the 3rd ponder for tendrills because in lot of situations i needed to play burning but my oponent had or could have surgical/extirpate and if i play it i would loss, so a tendrills went main deck.

Ur opponent cant extirpate Burning Wish because it gets exiled on resolution.

and second question, is it posible to make piles of only 4 or less cards?

Yes u can, if ur grave and library contains fewer than 5 cards.

Togores

11-08-2011, 08:15 AM

Ur opponent cant extirpate Burning Wish because it gets exiled on resolution.

Yes u can, if ur grave and library contains fewer than 5 cards.

but if he counters it or discards from my hand he can do it.

and i mean doing less than 5 cards when i have like 40 cards left, so i understand its not posible to do it.

thanks^^

metalhead

11-09-2011, 04:28 PM

The rulings on getherer say that you must get five cards if you have 5 or more. If you have less than 5 all cards must be used.

John Cox

11-10-2011, 09:19 PM

So I've been playing with Gitaxian Probes over Sensei's divining top (-I know it sounds like a bad idea) and its actually working well for me. Has anyone tried this and had similar results?

Chikenbok

11-10-2011, 09:47 PM

John Cox

11-11-2011, 12:39 AM

Yeah I had tops in there, but I ended up not needing them for piles. When I took them out I ended going ponder for turn one and brainstorm for turn two. Top never seemed to need a turn.

Pulp_Fiction

11-11-2011, 01:33 AM

ThomasDowd

11-11-2011, 02:27 AM

So I've been playing with Gitaxian Probes over Sensei's divining top (-I know it sounds like a bad idea) and its actually working well for me. Has anyone tried this and had similar results?

The filtering of top, plus the piles you get access to I feel are worth the inclusion. Probe is a one shot deal that is even on card parity, top is an investment of time and mana and a card but it equals out in card parity later (when you typically win). Plus seeing more cards is very good. The power of top plus fetchlands in terms of selection is probably one of the best interactions you have and has pulled me back from losing numerous times.

It helps to think about what each card does before cutting it and what the use of it is in the deck.

John Cox

11-11-2011, 02:30 AM

The filtering of top, plus the piles you get access to I feel are worth the inclusion. Probe is a one shot deal that is even on card parity, top is an investment of time and mana and a card but it equals out in card parity later (when you typically win). Plus seeing more cards is very good. The power of top plus fetchlands in terms of selection is probably one of the best interactions you have and has pulled me back from losing numerous times.

It helps to think about what each card does before cutting it and what the use of it is in the deck.

Thanks, I just wanted to hear I was wrong.

ThomasDowd

11-11-2011, 02:35 AM

This is why I rarely ever post combo comments on the Source anymore. I have played DD for a long time .... playing anything less than 4x Top is wrong. Its that simple. U win the majority of games with few cards in hand and Top in play. I can barely begin to understand the ridiculousness of this statement. Its like telling UW Stoneforge Bullshit to cut Batterskull ...

Playing anything less than 4x Top in DDFT is just wrong and u will lose games because of it. There is no further justification needed.

EDIT: Welcome to my blocked list :)

You should probably be a little more forgiving when people are trying to learn how to play one of the more complicated decks/ cards in all of magic. Instead of flaming on people you should try explaining yourself in a clearer matter.

I understand that you are upset that n00bs and idiots are trying to pick up doomsday after having "ZOMG PLAY AD NAUSEUM WIN THE GAME!" experience. But it takes time and patience to learn the whole skill set that goes into this deck the inclusion of cards and the techniques for playing those cards. The people who cannot will filter themselves out and so be it. I would save your energy.

The allure of doomsday is very strong it blows peoples minds in the whole room when you are casting that card. So they naturally want to play it too.

Just please speak a little clearer and don't flame people for their ideas but explain to them why it may be bad and offer points to counter with reasoning. If you can't explain why then don't bother trying.

Thanks

ThomasDowd

11-11-2011, 02:59 AM

Thanks, I just wanted to hear I was wrong.

No problem, I figured you would want an explanation.

so some situations that I played in tonight that were wrong and right of my opponents.

My elves opponent thought seizes me sees IT, doomsday, top, brainstorm, lands and maybe a silence. He took the doomsday. I was on the draw, this was T1, this is the wrong play. As the amount of cards I will eventually see from top will find me another doomsday and or more rituals to eventually just IT one up. He was not very good anyway and the clock he was presenting was laughable at best so the amount of filtering the top does in that situation is borderline insane. But then again elves is in my opinion not a very good deck. (I ended up igg looping him out (IT -> igg-> doomsday), casting a silence for the storm count with like storm 14? before tendrils. ya' know just jerking it)

in another match my opponent who is very familiar with storm combo, forced my top. that in my opinion is probably one of the better plays since if I can assemble top + turn 3 doomsday, that can beat pretty much any clock he can present as the piles are a lot easier with top in play. also the amount of cards I will see is great if the game goes long and it lets me save my brainstorms and ponders for when I need them to juice my hand to kill them or to shuffle and find a card I need.

on these notes I'm not saying I'm the greatest, I punted a bunch of times and those were what my losses came to. and for the first time ever lost to a mindbreak trap. that was embarrassing (it was to prevent myself from decking against and enchantress player when I had an emrakul going to town, and then proceeded to go on tilt) and throw away G3 by fetching swamp instead of U sea and then when I topped on upkeep it was ponder, ponder, brainstorm. fucking awkward. UGH so mad. I play around wasteland too much and go on auto most of the time of basics good, duals bad, awful habit.

But my losses were to my own mistakes and I also failed to produce a pile when I knew there was one with the mana I had, that led to victory, but ended up killing him via IT chain. So yes the deck is hard, I am still in the learning process but the edges/ nuances are very good, you pick up a bunch of small percentage points everywhere if you can play the deck to near 100% efficiency.

Occam

11-11-2011, 03:38 AM

Sdt is the best card in DDFT, and to be honest, should definitely be a four-of. I have seen some comments on lists playing with 3, which is possible if you are genuinely going for a faster goldfish (let's face it, any deck leaning on top is going to be slower in general) or if you are hybridising. Still not really good reasons, but reasons nonetheless. Top is the best card because:

1) DDFT is inherently a slower combo deck. Slower combo decks make up for the lack of speed with resilience, and top gives the deck a lot of resilience. Playing the deck's namesake lands sees a lot of cards and filters our the chaff. That is the single best reason to play top in any deck (and also why ANT should be playing top if they are actually leaning on cantrips to find business -- it is far better than preordain and especially probe in ANT). Top is fantastic against tempo and is DDFT's best weapon in g1 against tempo, outside of chant for those who play it.

2) Resilience against discard, and allows for a greater hand size against control. Top in addition to judicious casting of artifact mana against discard allows the deck to essentially never go down to 0 in hand, as your top card is a virtual card in your hand. The same applies for control matchups. The card selection and being able to untap with 9 cards vs 7 means that Doomsday rolls over control as long as it is competently piloted.

3) Cantrips are combo pieces. Having a permanent one allows you to be more aggressive with cantrips, either by playing them or going off faster because cantrip + top piles only need 4 mana to win the game. One of the hardest things to micromanage with DDFT, especially when transitioning from AdN-based builds is the playing of cantrips. Play too many, and you can't actually go off efficiently as you lack a way to draw into the pile without passing the turn. Play too few, and you can't actually draw into business. Top makes a lot of that null, in addition to creating cheaper piles.

A lot of piles which involve protection, Wish or CoV also involve top to be feasible. IT/LED into DD is also made possible by sdt.

Tops are also combo pieces with helm of awakening to get around teeg/canonist.

4) Tops generate storm. If your basic IU pile goes like IU/LED/LED/non-bs cantrip/Toa, having a top on board means you convert additional mana beyond the fourth into storm. Other situations exist.

5) DDFT is the combo deck that best abuses LED. Doomsday itself, bs + draw effects, top, and BW and/or IT all abuse LED. Sdt is a huge part in converting LED into black lotus.

6) Other minor reasons exist. Playing a tundra/trop (and now volc) and a top represents control, which can change how an opponent plays. Top is also better against certain forms of disruption like JTMS and Clique.

Pulp_Fiction

11-11-2011, 04:08 AM

You should probably be a little more forgiving when people are trying to learn how to play one of the more complicated decks/ cards in all of magic. Instead of flaming on people you should try explaining yourself in a clearer matter.

I understand that you are upset that n00bs and idiots are trying to pick up doomsday after having "ZOMG PLAY AD NAUSEUM WIN THE GAME!" experience. But it takes time and patience to learn the whole skill set that goes into this deck the inclusion of cards and the techniques for playing those cards. The people who cannot will filter themselves out and so be it. I would save your energy.

The allure of doomsday is very strong it blows peoples minds in the whole room when you are casting that card. So they naturally want to play it too.

Just please speak a little clearer and don't flame people for their ideas but explain to them why it may be bad and offer points to counter with reasoning. If you can't explain why then don't bother trying.

Thanks

I totally am. Now, I am absurdly drunk now but earluier tonight I was talking to a fellow combo player who is ... not the best but ... he has played combo for a lot of years. What bothers me is that people try and playtest this deck then say "oh .... this is really good" to the players who know how bad it is. Really, I just played Burn in my local tournament with Ensnaring Bridge and made it to a top 4 split. I even wrote a short tourney report but .... this is by no means the definitive list. I had success once ..... it was surprising but .... anyone who has ever played DD knows how important Top is. Suggesting cutting it is just ignorance. He didn't even post his list but before we see it ... its wrong. Playing DD without 4x Top is wrong, anyone who has taken the time to play the deck and read the piles will know that.

Chikenbok

11-11-2011, 03:20 PM

New sexy party time deck I've been playing with to a great much success:

4 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Bayou
1 Swamp
2 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Badlands
1 Volcanic Island

4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
3 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Doomsday
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Ponder
1 Meditate
3 Thoughtseize
4 Duress
4 Burning Wish
4 Gitaxian Probe

SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Wipe Away
SB: 4 Xantid Swarm
SB: 1 Slaughter Pact
SB: 2 Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 Deathmark
SB: 1 Doomsday
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Pulverize
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens

Have 4 top, 4 brainstorm, 4 ponder, 4 probe is kind of nuts.. like.. kind of completely nuts. I'm still never switching over the IU simply because, well.. I like being able to play around snare but we don't need that debate again. I got too fed up with IT so I threw em out and put the BWs back in the deck.

I kind of miss my MD Rain of Filth and MD CoV so I might go back down to 1 petal and put back in my utility cards - even though I feel like RoF is trying to do the same thing another petal is, that is, speed up the deck.

Comments welcome.

Final Fortune

11-12-2011, 03:09 AM

metalhead

11-12-2011, 11:08 AM

What exactly does Gitaxian Probe contribute to the deck and the piles if you aren't using IU to draw into Gitaxian Probe plus 2 Lion's Eye Diamonds for the 6 mana pile into your Burning Wish -> Tendrils of Agony? Are you just using Gitaxian Probe to increase the number of manaless cantrips into Doomsday (i.e. increase your speed) and are you certain that's better than just playing Pre-Ordain?

I don't think you need the Tendrils of Agony MD, if you're worried about Extirpate you can just SB in an extra Tendrils of Agony from the SB (I've liked having access to an extra Tendrils of Agony and Ill Gotten Gains in the SB to board in vs. aggro personally)

Though probe is better in IU builds. Its still good at giving you valuable information. Giving a free storm. And the cantrip comes in verry handy some times. I wouldn't say its needed in meditate builds but its still quite good.

As far as top goes. Not only does it provide long term inevitability. Sometimes its simply a cantrip that can be cast off of black mana and that's where most of my turn 1 and 2 wins come from. So top actually offers speed and reziliance in one package.

flrn

11-12-2011, 11:53 AM

Have 4 top, 4 brainstorm, 4 ponder, 4 probe is kind of nuts.. like.. kind of completely nuts. I'm still never switching over the IU simply because, well.. I like being able to play around snare but we don't need that debate again. I got too fed up with IT so I threw em out and put the BWs back in the deck.

Just splash white for Chants and play Ideas Unbound instead of Meditate. It'll be awesome. I promise.

Chikenbok

11-12-2011, 02:36 PM

God damn it I'm not playing white. Not doing it. Won't do it.

Probe has just been an intense card to run despite not having access to cheap ass IU piles. The ability to take a peak, and cantrip has been priceless almost every time I've used it. Preordain for the strict purpose of drawing and looking at cards is, absolutely better - but the peak has been simply priceless other times. Also the ability to have a free cantrip into a pile (even though I'm not running IU) has sped up the deck and added to the overall consistancy. Weird meditate in hand plus opponent having snare in hand piles that end in tendrils.. I can probe into it.

I might go ahead and cut the MD Tendrils but I don't want to have to rely solely on BW to win me the game if I don't have to - that is to say, I like to be able to play completely around snare rather than having to duress and play through it. And since I don't/won't ever run a chant, I can't just chant and walk around snare ;)

Nemavera

11-14-2011, 03:20 AM

I’m really sorry that I don’t have time to answer all questions, I’m pretty busy at the moment.

Some answers:

1. You want to play DDFT?
Step 1: Register on stormboards (www.teamstormboards.proboards.com)
Step 2: Read the whole (!!) thread here on theSource and on stormboards. If you speak german, there’s also a thread on www.mtg-forum.de
Step 3: Take a list and start goldfishing.
Step 4: Start playing the list vs. anything you like
Step 5: If you fail, go back to step 3.

2. Why Chants > Duress?
Chants are so much better right now, with everybody playing Snapcaster and Spell Snare. You can fight through Flusterstorm, Daze, Spellpierce, Snare, Force. There are 3 dangerous counterspells: Force of Will, Spellstutter Sprite, Counterspell. That’s it. Reason: They counter your Chant.

3. Vendilion Clique sucks
Learn to use your Top, your Ponders and your Brainstorms.

4. There a lots of other questions, most of them have been answered quite often.

p.s. read emidln’s posts: He’s awesome ;)

Chikenbok

11-15-2011, 01:59 PM

2. Why Chants > Duress?
Chants are so much better right now, with everybody playing Snapcaster and Spell Snare. You can fight through Flusterstorm, Daze, Spellpierce, Snare, Force. There are 3 dangerous counterspells: Force of Will, Spellstutter Sprite, Counterspell. That’s it. Reason: They counter your Chant.

Suddenly, thanks to Gerry Thompson, everyone thinks that Counterbalance is a deck again. While we all know, its never been a real god damned deck - it forced me to stick to black disruption over chants. I still think if the meta develops well, at least I am going to see more CB all over the god damn place.

Togores

11-16-2011, 05:51 AM

After 2 weeks plaing the deck. I come up with a lot of conclusions. I started plaing the gp version. After that i changed this.

-1 ponder
-2 scalding
-1 tundra

+1 tendrils
+2 flooded
+1 scrubland

I thought the tendrils main deck make me not losinf to extitpate my burning but it comes out i have never never use it. So in side deck i play laboratory maniac and it has winn me so many games. I have been thinking changing the MD tendrills for maniac, because he is awesome in this situations:

Against discard where u have not a big hand to storm them
Against 1st game gadog tegg where al my cards with maniac are less than 4cc
Against battelskull if you get hited one or 2 times you dont lose because making more than 11 storm is dificult and 14 even more but not imposible.
And it gives you piles where you combo with only 4 Doomsday cards so you have a last card out if something happens.

What do you all thing of maniac??? Good or bad???
The tundra was taken out because i got problems to cast doomsday without extra mana and being wb made it easier. I think was a correct change. Never needed the 2nd tundra.

Then in side i play all combos in the world may be too much but i have a plan against any deck. The only problem i had was aetersworm canonist. I won a game vs 2 but it makes a lot more dificult to winn with it on board.

So thats my side (all singeltons)

Time spiral (dont know if it should be diminishing returns, will test it but thing spiral is better)
Tendrills
Empy the warrens
Duress
Pulverize
Oust
Doomsday
Grapeshot
Helm of awakening
Shelldock island
Emrakul
Piroclasm
Chain of vapor (love this card bouncing in resp to your top and the canonist and draw 1, i may be add the 2nd one)
Echoing truth
Whipe away

May be i will post the most dificult game i played in my life winning true a double cannonist and ending at 1 life. With also a gaddog teg on board. I have the game writen down at other place and i will upload later or tomorrow.

Chikenbok

11-16-2011, 12:01 PM

jjjoness'

11-16-2011, 12:46 PM

If you have difficulties generating enough storm, I strongly recommend you take a look at the double Doomsday piles.
Discard can be beaten by using cantrips right (which is the most important and difficult thing to learn) and playing artifact mana preemptively.

Dark Ritual

11-16-2011, 01:09 PM

Yeah with doomsday you can often have 3 cards in hand and win the game those 3 being dark rit, LED, doomsday, with top on the field. That generates lethal storm as well with the burning wish version.

Doomsday requires you to get 5 cards if you have 5 cards. If doomsday could get you 1-5 cards it would be even more broken. Then again I often like getting 5 cards to generate maximum storm.

Time spiral >>>>>>>> diminishing returns. Time spiral often costs less mana in this deck since you untap and has the advantage of being useful with doomsday piles since it doesn't exile your entire deck like returns does with the exile the top 10 cards clause.

Oust seems techy but why play it over deathmark again? And for that matter you also have pyroclasm and grapeshot in your SB to deal with hatebears. Are you super afraid of hatebears or something? You should probably cut oust for a slaughter pact or something useful since you already have grapeshot and pyroclasm to deal with hatebears.

Smmenen

11-16-2011, 04:09 PM

What do you all thing of maniac??? Good or bad???

The Dday lists here are pretty weaksauce. I think some players are opposed to Maniac because it makes Dday actually so much easier. Look at what it did for Vintage Dday.

emidln

11-16-2011, 04:31 PM

Chikenbok

11-16-2011, 04:46 PM

Clearly we just have to cut all of the cantrips, run only 1 brainstorm, a bunch more accel, and 4 FOW.

Then we can protect a maniac in a format where every deck except for ours comes packed with MD removal.

I'm kind of excited to see a REAL Doomsday deck too.

QQQ

11-16-2011, 04:46 PM

Do you mean that people don't play removal in Vintage? I think that all of the burn, and spot removal in Legacy makes a Maniac less safe than in vintage. Plus missing Recall, Lotus, Will, Gush, Moxen, etc.

Togores

11-16-2011, 07:03 PM

Why do you need a big hand to win the game? You know that you play Doomsday.

How do you lose to a g1 teeg, you play Burning wish. Wish --> Way to kill teeg --> win.

Batterskull coming in twice should put them at around 25 life after the probable forces and fetches, it shouldn't be a problem to hit 14-15 storm.

I don't get the part about 4 Doomsday cards. If you have the option to get 5, you must - no may clause there.

Lab maniac has already been discussed. Love the oust tech.

I remeber you that my oponent plays too. he has cards and put me into presure if he has tegg and i make doomsday i shul already get hitted bu life if my plie needs a extra burning to get rid of tegg i need a lot of mana and resurcen or too pass turn to winn, and its not always posible. they play wasteland and other disruption cards. i have not infinite time or perfect cards always.

and agaisnt battle skull deck they play counters and wastelands usualy, this means i dont have a lot of cards if i have a clock on table im not able every time to make 15 spells, usualy the ending doomsday pile gives me like 6-7 spells so i have to make and have mana to play 5 before i doomsday and if i dont make a ritual and so its dificult in some situations of preasure of if he already hitted me with sword of feast and femine.

Togores

11-16-2011, 07:10 PM

Togores

11-16-2011, 07:32 PM

Smmenen, show us the true Doomsday lists please. We need your guidance. No Doomsday lists were even competitive before you optimized a Lab Manaic list for the world to see. /sarcasm

Lab Manaic has the following issues that it doesn't have in Vintage:

(a) it costs more to win with than Tendrils
(b) casting Lab Maniac is significantly harder than in Vintage, where every pile includes Black Lotus
(c) passing the turn leads to losing to aggro decks
(d) people actually play removal spells in Vintage
(e) casting Doomsday is harder due to not having Gush for our Underground Seas (also see (b) once you've cast gush)

To be perfectly honest, (b), (c), and (d) aren't that big of an issue. Costing more to win than Tendrils is a big issue. Being vulnerable to more hate is a big issue if you need to play Rituals to cast Doomsday (thus taking away space from protection to resolve Doomsday and keep Maniac around).

its realy more easy to winn with maniac than with tendrils, in the situation of u have bbb doomsday probe and led with top in table u can easy make this pile if you are on 6 lp and your oponent has tegg and lethal damage or a lot of life points, or a card like solitary confinement or runed hallo or sth like that:

ideas, led any card gitaxian maniac.

at any card u can put a chant if you still have white mana to save you manic for stp if they are untaped or sth like that.

you make the pile of before with the doomsday you are at 3 ife, then you play led, play gitaxian to get to 1 life. with gitaxian on the pile you respond with craking led for uuu, draw ideas. play ideas. drawing led chant and another probe. if you have white mana you play chant, then led then with the U you have you play gitaxian craking led for uuu then you cast the just drawn maniac and change the top to winn even if your opoent has infinite life points of something that makes u dont be able kill him with tendrills.

and to answer your a-e arguments.

a- it cost the same and is more resistant to anti combo hate
b- here with ur cantrips and leds you can cast maniac easy being half inteligent
c- you dont need to pass turn if you dont want too, making the right piles makes you winn automaticaly
d- and yes in vintage they play removal speels, from lightning, to dimsemember, to echoing truth, to and easy red elemental blast who is played in mostly blue decks with red splash.
e- we play other deck, we have more free draw spells like gitaxian and top and have more mana producers like ritual and led.

^^

Chikenbok

11-16-2011, 11:52 PM

I no longer have any idea what's going on this thread.

emidln

11-16-2011, 11:59 PM

its realy more easy to winn with maniac than with tendrils, in the situation of u have bbb doomsday probe and led with top in table u can easy make this pile if you are on 6 lp and your oponent has tegg and lethal damage or a lot of life points, or a card like incomunication or runed hallo or sth like that

If you have 3 mana and 2 draws and can't win through bullshit permanents, you are mentally deficient and probably want to examine a game with less thought. I recommend Lawn Darts.

The most efficient Tendrils pile is Probe in hand and UU floating. There is no other single cantrip pile that is more efficient with fewer requirements. Brainstorm can work at U, but requires spare cards in hand. That you think Lab Maniac is more efficient for a kill than Tendrils is pretty obvious proof that you have no idea how DDFT actually works.

Togores

11-17-2011, 02:00 AM

If you have 3 mana and 2 draws and can't win through bullshit permanents, you are mentally deficient and probably want to examine a game with less thought.

Then say me a pile were i can win if there is a runed halo. Incomunication or tegg on board 1st game and i cant pass turn because of if i doo it i lose.
I know u r a master but i cant get a pile that i winn with this cards and mana. And without mean deck bouncer. That means for me i have to wish for an answer.

bennotsi

11-17-2011, 02:33 AM

Then say me a pile were i can win if there is a runed halo. Incomunication or tegg on board 1st game and i cant pass turn because of if i doo it i lose.
I know u r a master but i cant get a pile that i winn with this cards and mana. And without mean deck bouncer. That means for me i have to wish for an answer.

What you're asking is ridiculous: Have you ever actually seen a match where you're opponent managed to get Runed Halo and Gaddock Teeg on the table game one, against a competent player playing this deck?

It shouldn't be necessary to tell you this: but these decks are optimized for the common case, not for every exotic situation your mind can come up with.

And what on earth do you mean by "Incomunication", thats not even a card....

Togores

11-17-2011, 02:53 AM

I only mean how do you win this situation only having a tegg. And not being able to Pass turn?

Bahamuth

11-17-2011, 04:17 AM

The Dday lists here are pretty weaksauce. I think some players are opposed to Maniac because it makes Dday actually so much easier. Look at what it did for Vintage Dday.

I have no idea what makes you think you can even remotely compare Vintage Doomsday with Legacy Doomsday. Not only don't we get to tutor for the same cards, the format is completely different. I looked into Lab Maniac. Winning always costs more then with ToA. If you want to play around spot removal, you need a Chromatic Sphere which adds 2 mana to the cost. The advantage is that it gets around a ton of hate, making it sideboard material at best.

If you know this shit better than us and come here to tell us that, at least show us some 'strongsauce' lists...

Sorry XP thought that the spaish name was also the english one. Solitary confinement is it called. And i have had already this situations game 1. And i only mean how do you win this situation only having a tegg. And not being able to Pass turn.

Play a different deck, or be prepared to add sideboard cards for this specifically.

metalhead

11-17-2011, 08:33 AM

OurSerratedDust

11-17-2011, 10:42 AM

EVERY doomsday list should have a main deck universal bounce spell. Chain of vapor tends to work best and can be easily worked into doomsday piles. Some cases can be made to play a different bounce spell depending on exected metta. But chain is the most versatile. And if you can't build a doomsday pile on tge fly incorperating a bounce spell, go play ANT.

I think this is debatable. You could argue that one would win more games running something useful in all matchups (acceleration, cantrips, protection) than something narrow that will only be relevant once every other tournament you go to.

Obviously, it depends on your meta. At least in America, I don't think the maindeck bounce is worth the slot right now. I understand there is a certain feeling of "safety" in running cards like that, but you need to think about it statistically.

Chikenbok

11-17-2011, 12:58 PM

If you have 3 mana and 2 draws and can't win through bullshit permanents, you are mentally deficient and probably want to examine a game with less thought. I recommend Lawn Darts.

Sigged.

Edit for content: For a while I was playing without any MD bounce and it was working fine, so, as Serrated said - it really does depend on what you're going to see. I had to put it back in because of the rise of maverick - people would see me walk into the store in which I play and immediately put their teegs back into their decks. It was one spot that I had used for an extra petal (for speed) that I strictly threw a CoV into.

If you need it play it, but I don't at all think its absolutely necessary to play bounce in the deck MD.

Dark Ritual

11-17-2011, 01:21 PM

Lab maniac is too complicated to set up; you need a chant effect that turn so your maniac doesn't get the shit beaten out of him except the opponent can still lavamancer him. With the extra mana you're using for maniac you could just, you know, play chain of vapor. Nobody runs gaddock teeg and runed halo in the same MD and if it's postboard you should have boarded in bounce spells to deal and slaughter pact is exceptionally good at killing teeg post DD since it costs 0 mana and has no drawback assuming you win that turn, which should be easy if you know what you're doing. You know what else works against teeg? Grapeshot + helm of awakening, which is several times better than lab maniac I'd wager since it fights through canonist too. In short, stop running lab maniac. The card is trash.

GGoober

11-17-2011, 05:27 PM

This thread is starting to make me sick. I was intending to post up DDFT piles (with a crap-ton of information) but I think I'll just contribute that to the stormboards eventually.

How many people in this thread have read the discussions from page 1 to the last page? DDFT isn't even fully-optimized up to today. It never can be because the deck is essentially a flexible combo deck that can be re-adjusted for a given meta to improve its chance of winning, unlike ANT/TES.

I see people crying for 16 cantrips or less than 4 Tops. The only reason you feel that you're winning well with 16 cantrips is because you do not know how to use your cantrips at the right time and effectively (there's a nice article in the past talking about how to see the most cards in certain situations and you should read that). Lastly, the veterans on this thread are not even flaming even if pulp comes off a bit harsh. It's just that it is highly annoying to find newer people pick up the deck and claim that X and Y is better than A and B when they have not looked through and learned the ins/outs of the deck since it was first created. No, this thread isn't about boosting emdlin and the other people's ego, it has one of the richest source of information you can find in deck threads so please stop 'de-railing' the thread for people who actually want to fish for valuable information.

Regarding Lab Maniac, I am open-minded to it, and I've tried a couple of piles. There ARE situations where Lab Maniac is very useful, but those situations are fairly narrow. Against decks that have to rely on 2-3 lockpieces to lock you out, you can win with Lab Maniac by ignoring the hate such as Teeg/Leyline of Sanctity/Solitary Confinement etc. You can also win with Lab Maniac against control decks that have boarded out creature removal (BUT why not just a SI-Emrakul pile at this point?). The ONLY real benefit Lab Maniac has is:

1) It's unexpected (it'll work 1 out of 3 games from the post-board then you may benefit just slightly from them playing around it by keeping in removal)
2) It's 1-card less than the SI-Emrakul pile that is relevant against control decks.
3) It can win through multiple permanent hate that are otherwise hard to deal with with just CoV (this is REALLY rare in Legacy).

The Lab Maniac piles without passing the turns are actually very restrictive. It requires the exact cards and cantrip/mana to go off. Compared to the other much mana efficient piles, it becomes debatable whether it's truly good enough in Legacy (see the 3 cases where Lab Maniac's useful).

Anyway, I'll post my DDFT pile resources soon, most likely on the stormboards, and seriously 'newer' people, we're not hating or being elitist, just read the first 80+ pages, and then you'll understand what it means by there hasn't been a single optimized DDFT list/pile. There are really good lists/piles, but they are all the work of people with experience/knowledge, knowing what lists/piles to build for a specific metagame/matchup.

Occam

11-18-2011, 01:17 AM

There is nothing wrong with cantrip-heavy lists. It isn't even about not being able to play cantrips properly. Cantrips provide consistency in draws, provide resilience against discard, allow you to better find solutions to certain hands (2 land 2 duress, wish, top, bs is more than decent against blue decks, but mediocre to terrible against aggro -- cantrips draw you out of a hole when you keep wrong hands against unknown opponents), fuel cabal ritual and are a combo piece. A lot of people are underestimating how powerful double cantrip piles are. Potentially free with probe, costing U with sdt, UU with two non-probe cantrips, they enable a lot of quick wins while allowing staying power if a quick win isn't advisable.

There is something wrong with having less than 4 tops or considering lab maniac as a staple of this deck. There is nothing wrong with playing a higher number of cantrips, especially if a number are probes (as they should be).

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS

11-19-2011, 09:09 AM

I'll be playing a Doomsday list with Lab Man for a tournament this Monday.

Why?

Because I fucking can.

Report to come later.

Jeff Kruchkow

11-19-2011, 12:50 PM

Played a one-of Lab Man in my SB at a small tourney last night. They rest of the rounds are unexciting because I just did what storm does to non-blue but round one, g2 and g3 Lab Man single handedly helped me beat the Forgemaster MUD deck when he either had Chalice or Trini out by letting me drop the man and sit a little since they had to clock/removal. Still, I'm pretty sure he's not worth it.

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS

11-19-2011, 01:00 PM

He's fun to play though :3

Deviruchi

11-19-2011, 03:18 PM

Does anyone know which country player is playing DD in Team Competition at Worlds? Just curious :)

Xiang

11-19-2011, 04:37 PM

Does anyone know which country player is playing DD in Team Competition at Worlds? Just curious :)

Doomsday was played by a Dutchman - he lost -.-

Jeff Kruchkow

11-20-2011, 12:10 AM

He's fun to play though :3

So, much fun. I lost a match to Forgemaster but took a game with LabMan and was so happy I was telling people I won the match because my joy mad me forget I actually lost the match. Still probably win more. But so awesome.

Lejay

11-20-2011, 07:31 AM

Those comments on maniac against MUD are quite interesting. I still don't feel right with having two non tutorable cards in my sideboard (either 2 serenity or 2 hurkyl's recall) and I'm really disappointed by pulverize so this is something I'll think about.

Togores

11-20-2011, 09:05 AM

The maniac is good agaisnt a lot of dificult pairings when they have hate on board.

MUD
Control
maveric if they sided out the swords, but you can anyway chant them
mono black
hight tide, they can not kill you, but when they are making combo i think they will find a bouncer,
reanimator if they resolve a jin gitaxian, but the draw 7 is still too good there for them. gran abolisher makes a big edge
enchantris is auto winn and u skip his solitary comfinement and cards that dont let kill him with emrakul.
life decks, but i think this dosnt even exist any more.
dredge, if they terapy you a lot but i think this is easy won via storm.
painters, but ur guy will get a reb fo sure. jere i think is better yo side in emrakul and storm them.

So im happy to see people testing the maniac, there are some dificult games he wins for you easily.

Lejay

11-20-2011, 07:36 PM

Sorry but no to all decks after MUD except maybe maverick in some situations, but I'll never side maniac in against that deck.

Occam

11-20-2011, 10:37 PM

Lab maniac isn't even very good against Mud. Sure, he will win some games through an early chalice at 0/1 or a 3sphere, but that is only if you manage to draw into a 1-of that cannot be tutored by anything outside of doomsday and possibly IT (which is subpar in a lot of dd lists anyway). More importantly, they can't have a clock, which is pretty rare for mud after 2-3 turns have elapsed. You can Doomsday, pass the turn, draw Maniac, and hope to resolve Meditate the next turn through a chalice @1 and/or a 3sphere, but it's really narrow and potentially answered by steel hellkite, wasteland, golem etc. He's better against stax because that deck lacks any kind of pressure, which means you can sit and hope to draw into wish for artifact hate, doomsday to setup a maniac pile, or draw the maniac himself. Unfortunately, stax is terrible. Pulverise isn't even worth playing in the side now.

To be honest, a lot of the decks listed above whose matchups are supposedly helped my maniac aren't worth the slot at all. Enchantress is a great matchup in the first place, and Emrakul post board makes the matchup even more lopsided. Even if maniac makes enchantress a close to 100% win, it's still not worth the slot, as Emrakul is useful against a host of other decks, some of which are actual bad matchups like Reanimator. Decks that already have green for carpets can also have access to Reverent Silence. You'd never place maniac in the board for maverick either. In the cases where you actually are screwed over by hatebears galore and Mum, the chances of you being able to Wish => DD => draw/cast Maniac => draw/cast meditate through canonist while staying alive or not getting disrupted is extremely low over 4 turns, 3 if you have Doomsday in hand, 1 of which Maniac must be unmolested on the battlefield. If hatebears are a problem, bring in bounce/sweepers from side, and leave at least one pyroclasm/virtue's ruin/grapeshot/sweeper in board, so you can at least setup an eot bounce on mum and sweep next turn or include the sweeper in the dd pile.

You would never ever bring maniac in against Painter. I mean, grindstone post DD is already a huge headache, do you really need to contend with blasts on top of that while planning an optimal pile, be it a maniac pile or storm/emrakul pile?

Control is a joke for Doomsday. There really is nothing else to say.

High Tide is a good matchup. If they already have no issues winning through hatebears and Leylines, they can win through Maniac easily.

There really isnt an economical way to play maniac in Legacy DD as there is too much removal (even post board) and a distinct lack of cards like lotus, recall and gush to break Maniac piles.

OurSerratedDust

11-21-2011, 08:42 AM

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Chromatic Sphere beats removal on Lab Maniac because it doesn't go on the stack.

LM is still probably bad, but this does improve things a bit.

Occam

11-21-2011, 09:45 AM

Only if you already have no library, though, in which case you could go Meditate, Maniac, Sphere and sac the sphere while retaining priority. That requires an extra slot in the board for sphere, and still doesn't solve the situations that Lab Maniac is best in (a locked down board from Mud where Sphere/cantrips can't be cast through Chalice, necessitating Meditate or IU, or hatebears from Maverick, in which case sphere and maniac can be cast, but not together with a draw spell).

Lab Maniac just seems subpar in DD lists that win with Tendrils. In a build closer to Rev614, though, piles with SI/Emrakul/Maniac could work as Emrakul protects Maniac before it is cast by attacking and draws an extra card. SI piles with Maniac, double cantrip (probe is best) and sphere win efficiently if you have no cantrips in hand. More exotic piles if you have a brainstorm can be made involving Maniac/SI/sphere and can incorporate accel, protection, cloud of faeries, draw etc.

OurSerratedDust

11-21-2011, 10:20 AM

Togores

11-21-2011, 11:32 AM

Yesterday I won another tournament here in Madrid with doomsday storm and now that I remember most of the games (what is not usual). So I made a little report.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22658-Wining-in-Madrid-with-Doomsday-Tendrills-with-laboratory-Maniac.&p=603188#post603188

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS

11-22-2011, 12:26 AM

Ended up 2-2 tonight.

2-1 vs Painter Stone
1-2 vs Esper Blade
2-1 vs Dredge
0-2 vs Dragon Stompy

Labman was great when I had him. He's easier to play through hate, but isn't that awesome.

Here's the list for reference.

16 Land
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Swamp

1 Creature
1 Laboratory Maniac

43 Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Gitaxion Probe
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Doomsday
3 Thoughtseize
3 Ponder
3 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
1 Lotus Petal
1 Ideas Unbound
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-Gotten Gains

15 Sideboard
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Extirpate
1 Deathmark
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Meditate
1 Helm of Awakening
1 Brain Freeze

Togores

11-24-2011, 05:26 AM

Im thinking cutting the pyroclasm from my side for virtues ruin. Its easier to acces to 3BR Than to 2RR in the same turn. And it kills tegg, aven and canonist even if they have mother, jitte or a sword on them. An also kills all relicary knights mothers and quasalys emptying all the gw decks tables.

What do you think?

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS

12-06-2011, 07:37 PM

Short post. Played this to a 3-1 finish last night at my LGS:

17 Land
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Plains

43 Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Gitaxion Probe
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Burning Wish
4 Silence
3 Orim's Chant
3 Doomsday
3 Ponder
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Ideas Unbound

15 Sideboard
2 Wild Nacatl
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Duress
1 Death Mark
1 Pulverize
1 Doomsday
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Grapeshot
1 Helm of Awakening
1 Empty the Warrens
1 shelldock Isle
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Nic Fit: 2-0
Red Death(?): 1-2
UW Stoneforge: 2-0
Maverick: 2-1

Killed with Emrakul once against Nic Fit. Lost to the RB discard burn deck. Apparently when they have Kiln Fiend and start bolting your face while Thoughtseizing you, it's hard to win.

In game two versus UW Stoneforge, I hit him for 5,000 with Grapeshot. Dropped a game against Maverick when he had both Canonist and Teeg on the table. Couldn't assemble a win in time.

Jajajaja.

Until next time :3

Lejay

12-06-2011, 11:02 PM

15 Sideboard
2 Wild Nacatl

So techy :{

Wipe away ? Grand Abolisher ?

Chikenbok

12-06-2011, 11:13 PM

So techy :{

Wipe away ? Grand Abolisher ?

I love the kitty tech.

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS

12-06-2011, 11:29 PM

The Wild Nacatl were in place of Grand Abolisher and something random because I didn't have any extra cards.

It was the Monday after the SCG St. Louis Open, so I decided to play something fun (I scrubbed out of Standard with UR Delver and Legacy with UBW ANT. Ended up against Stax round one. The rest of the day went downhill from there.)

The Wild Nacatls could be at least 2/2's from my Badlands.

They were signed by Brian Kibler :3

I also met Emidln at in St. Louis, along with Metalhead.

Emidln signed one of my foil Tendrils of Agony. I have a playmat altered with the Tendrils of Agony artwork, too.

/end rant

j_rb

12-21-2011, 12:27 AM

Hey just posting the list I 4-1'd my local tourney with. It's a doomsday/adN hybrid deck. It played out very well tonight except for the iggy I threw in last minute. But I knew that was a bad idea. Do you guys think cutting MD tendrils is a good idea? I have seen some people talking about it in DD lists a couple pages ago and want to make room for another land.

2 duress
3 orim's chant
2 silence
2 doomsday
1 ad nauseam
1 tendrils of agony
1 meditate
4 dark ritual
2 cabal ritual
4 burning wish
3 infernal tutor
4 lion's eye diamond
4 sensei's divining top
4 lotus petal
3 ponder
4 brainstorm
3 chrome mox ( yea, thats right. I run chrome mox)
2 underground sea
1 volcanic
1 tundra
4 polluted delta
3 flooded strand
1 island
1 swamp
1 plains

board
1 infernal tutor
1 iggy
1 doomsday
1 oust
1 grapeshot
1 time spiral (should this be diminishing returns due to my low land count? I'm not sure)
1 echoing truth
1 chain of vapor
1 deathmark
1 tendrils of agony
1 empty the warrens
1 duress
2 pyroblast
1 helm of awakening

I need a rebuild or meltdown somewhere in there, but I'm not sure what to put it in place of.

I'll be honest, this looks janky, but it plays well. I don't think the infernals are needed I was just trying them out and they ended up winning me a couple games. I really liked them so I will probably keep em in for now.

quick recap of the night
I played r1 mono blue tempo 2-1'd him

r 2 was reanimator 2-1'd him

r3 was pox 2-0'd him

r4 was a janky knights deck 2-0'd him

top 4 lost first round to death and taxes due to really, REALLLLLY bad draws. thanks deck :p.
G1 against dnt I mulled to a terrible 5 on the play.... lost from top => nothing (probably should have went to 4).
G2 I mulled to 5 again but almost pulled it off from a time spiral mid game (if I hit any business on spiral I would have won).

Jibblet

12-24-2011, 11:04 PM

Quick question: would you guys rather run IU or Med? For the piles

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS

12-25-2011, 01:26 AM

I prefer IU over Meditate because it's cheaper...

Dark Ritual

12-25-2011, 09:49 AM

I would max out on cabal ritual's before I ran a single chrome mox in DDFT. Cabal rit threshed is a huge boon in lists with meditate especially since you can actually use the BB leftover to cast meditate off one land. And because it fixes for doomsday, which is huge. It may not be as favorable with ad nauseam but this deck is built to abuse doomsday the most, not ad nauseam (typically ad nauseam is an EoT trick, when I use it as a storm engine to win the game it is very risky and has only paid off once with Nemavera's GP list while the other times I had to stop and pass the turn.) Overall your list seems really odd, having 4 wish and 3 infernal tutor seems ridiculously clunky especially when you lack gitaxian probe to draw into piles and infernal tutor is good only with the IGG loop or drawing out counterspells generally.

On time spiral vs. diminishing returns. I would still run spiral due to it being occasionally useful in pass the turn piles and diminishing returns is only good pre doomsday.

But with your list I would try to go -3 infernal tutor and go +2 probe +1 doomsday. And I would play lands over the chrome moxen, I have never liked chrome mox in here because 4 petal is typically enough and I usually never want to pitch a card to chrome mox because this deck usually wants all the cards it has in its hand.

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS

12-25-2011, 12:25 PM

I'm actually okay with going turn 1 Ad Nauseam against non-blue decks. I'm playing Nemavera's list from GP Amsterdam with a tweaked sideboard.

Compared to TES and ANT, the Ad Nauseams are fairly painless because you're hitting mostly 0's, 1's and 2's. There's only three slots at 3cc you can hit.

If I can turn one Ad Nauseam with a lot of mana floating, I usually go for it.

j_rb

12-29-2011, 01:00 AM

I would max out on cabal ritual's before I ran a single chrome mox in DDFT. Overall your list seems really odd, having 4 wish and 3 infernal tutor seems ridiculously clunky especially when you lack gitaxian probe to draw into piles and infernal tutor is good only with the IGG loop or drawing out counterspells generally.

But with your list I would try to go -3 infernal tutor and go +2 probe +1 doomsday.

Thanks for the feedback, I was trying to build a list with as many business spells as possible even though infernal is clunky, It won me several games that I would have otherwise lost. Do you think that I should throw the 4th infernal and igg maindeck since infernal => igg is a solid gameplan against decks without fow. Infernal also works fine with top in play for the doomsday route. I won multiple games going silence => infernal => doomsday with top in play. I would run probe but if I did I might as well run probe/IU instead of meditate.

I also plan on cutting mox and was just testing it. It is really bad without ad nauseam but it makes the turn 1 ad nauseam solid. I was really just playing the above list for testing purposes to see how the deck played out.

I'm going with this list as of today....

3 orim's chant
4 silence
2 doomsday
1 ad nauseam
1 tendrils of agony
1 meditate
4 dark ritual
2 cabal ritual
4 burning wish
4 infernal tutor
4 lion's eye diamond
4 sensei's divining top
4 lotus petal
3 ponder
4 brainstorm
2 underground sea
2 volcanic
1 tundra
4 polluted delta
4 flooded strand
1 island
1 swamp
1 plains

board
1 rebuild
1 iggy
1 doomsday
1 oust
1 grapeshot
1 time spiral
1 echoing truth
1 chain of vapor
1 deathmark
1 tendrils of agony
1 empty the warrens
1 duress
2 pyroblast
1 helm of awakening

I know you'll all think infernal is janky but I really like it. I'm going to test this for the next 2 weeks just to see how it plays out... If it turns out It's worse than the mainstream list I'll just cut the 4 infernals and 2 cabal rituals for 1 doomsday and
4 gitaxian probe and 1 ponder.

j_rb

12-30-2011, 05:11 PM

Went 4-1 again in my local tourney. Lost last round because of a misplay on my part.
The infernals saved the day numerous times. I really like them, but without moxes or anything to imprint them on they can be clunky without LED, but still can help double up on chants or rituals.

3 orim's chant
4 silence
2 doomsday
1 ad nauseam
1 tendrils of agony
1 meditate
4 dark ritual
2 cabal ritual
4 burning wish
4 infernal tutor
4 lion's eye diamond
4 sensei's divining top
4 lotus petal
3 ponder
4 brainstorm
2 underground sea
2 volcanic
1 tundra
4 polluted delta
4 flooded strand
1 island
1 swamp
1 plains

board
1 rebuild
1 iggy
1 doomsday
1 oust
1 grapeshot
1 time spiral
1 echoing truth
1 chain of vapor
1 deathmark
1 tendrils of agony
1 empty the warrens
1 duress
1 pyroblast
1 Edge of autumn
1 helm of awakening

r1 2-0'd reanimator
r2 2-0'd sneaky show
r3 2-1'd dredge
r4 2-0'd dredge
r5 1-2'd sneaky show

I was thinking of shaving 1 infernal for another cabal ritual. I like the way the deck plays with all the business though.

I need someones opinion who's more experienced with doomsday, with a list with infernals and no probes should I run IU instead of meditate? I see most list with infernal running Meditate but have seen a couple with IU in them who was piloted by a guy who regularly tops decently sized tourneys with DDFT. If I add IU should I run 1 or 2 probes also?

Dark Ritual

12-31-2011, 12:37 AM

j_rb

12-31-2011, 02:30 AM

If you run IU I would run at least 1 probe for the pile of IU, probe, LED, LED, wish/tendrils, which is the primary pile for winning typically with IU and street wraith is completely obsolete (obviously.) Unless you really want to hardcast wraith once every 10,000 games.

Getting turn 1 AdN is so hard with this deck even if I do have the AN in hand I usually can't cast it turn 1. The logic behind AdN over the 4th ponder is that it sometimes is ridiculous. I, however, have had only two good experiences with the card. Usually I'm terribly unlucky with AdN flips too and the deck composition doesn't help since there are lots of cards you don't want to flip off of AdN unless the circumstances permit i.e. I have BBB floating and flip a doomsday. But typically when I AdN I have no mana floating so it becomes very awkward if I don't hit lotus petal and I've already played my land for the turn.

If you run IT I strongly suggest MD IGG. IGG is also useful in pass the turn piles as well as normal piles as well as being sweet against aggro since it doesn't rely on life.

First of all thanks for the response. This threads been pretty cold lately.

I like the MD IGG idea and have been toying around with it. I just don't know what to shave off for 1. I find IGG coming in every game against aggro... It is a great sb card currently and I could see it being situational main deck since I definitely won't want it in certain MU's and if I need a lot of storm off a DD pile I usually use Time Spiral. I was also planning on 1 probe MD for the piles with IU primarily (I also have been unimpressed with meditate and remember IU being better due to it being cheaper), I just wanted other peoples opinions since I am a more competent TES pilot and have recently been interested in the versatility and general amazingness that is Doomsday.

Also, on the subject of the 1 ad nauseam maindeck, I really like it and it seems to just be there in very relevant situations in a lot of games I play. The infernals have been fantastic also, along with wishes and 2 doomsdays seems like enough with all the other business... Cabal Ritual has definitely been the worst card in the deck because of its cmc, but it's a ritual that makes BBB and most of the time 5 B, so it is in there in small numbers.

So the current list I'm running looks like this.

3 orim's chant
4 silence
2 doomsday
1 ad nauseam
1 tendrils of agony
1 IU
1 gitaxian probe
2 cabal ritual
4 dark ritual
4 burning wish
3 infernal tutor
4 lion's eye diamond
4 sensei's divining top
4 lotus petal
3 ponder
4 brainstorm
2 underground sea
2 volcanic
1 tundra
4 polluted delta
4 flooded strand
1 island
1 swamp
1 plains

board
1 rebuild
1 iggy
1 Infernal tutor (comes in with iggy against aggro, otherwise just a wish target.)
1 doomsday
1 oust
1 grapeshot
1 time spiral
1 echoing truth
1 chain of vapor
1 deathmark
1 tendrils of agony
1 empty the warrens
1 duress
1 Pyroblast
1 helm of awakening

I'm open for sideboard suggestions. Generally the sb is solid but if anyone can think of something I might be forgetting just let me know. The meta for my area is a lot of reanimator/delver some sneaky show and some maverick and death and taxes and a bit of pox/junk.
The oust is obviously there for reanimator if anyone was wondering.

I also realize, that I could use disfigure for the maverick/DNT matchup since it kills the shit out of mindcensor.

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS

12-31-2011, 02:46 AM

Well, I still play this deck.

As for the Maverick problem, I've devoted a slot to the match up in my board -- Virtue's Ruin.

Having to double bounce or Deathmark things with double Mother of Runes out required too many sideboard slots.

For reference--
1 Flusterstorm
1 Divert
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Wipe Away
1 Virtue's Ruin
1 Doomsday
1 Pulverize
1 Time Spiral
1 Grand Abolisher
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Shelldock Isle
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Deathmark
1 Duress

j_rb

12-31-2011, 02:52 AM

Well, I still play this deck.

As for the Maverick problem, I've devoted a slot to the match up in my board:
Virtue's Ruin. Having to double bounce or Deathmark things with double Mother of Runes out required too many sideboard slots.

For reference--
1 Flusterstorm
1 Divert
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Wipe Away
1 Virtue's Ruin
1 Doomsday
1 Pulverize
1 Time Spiral
1 Grand Abolisher
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Shelldock Isle
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Deathmark
1 Duress

I like the SB abolisher and I realize the abolisher's the extra silence, but what does the flusterstorm come in against? I was always curious. I also run the helm of awakening sb against anything that can protect a teeg or cannonist. It usually gets the job done. I don't have too much problem with maverick unless they get a mindcensor against me. I'll probably sb one abolisher as that seems to be amazing against a ton of things.

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS

12-31-2011, 02:56 AM

flusterstorm

You board it in against tempo decks.

j_rb

12-31-2011, 03:01 AM

You board it in against tempo decks.

Do you run the 7 chant build? I usually find that enough against tempo. Flusterstorm seems interesting though and I should probably give it a try since tempos big in my area.

EDIT: I've done some snooping and answered my own question. gg me.

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS

12-31-2011, 03:42 AM

Do you run the 7 chant build? I usually find that enough against tempo. Flusterstorm seems interesting though and I should probably give it a try since tempos big in my area.

I play seven chant with Burning Wish, no main deck tendrils or iggy.

j_rb

12-31-2011, 03:45 AM

I play seven chant with Burning Wish, no main deck tendrils or iggy.

Yea saw your list... I need to start snooping around instead of asking stupid questions....

I'm trying to find room for MD IGG.... What do you think I should cut... Im thinking 2 cabals for 1 infernal and 1 igg.
I'm sure you're thinking my list is janky as shit but Its been working in my local meta.

3 orim's chant
4 silence
2 doomsday
1 ad nauseam
1 tendrils of agony
1 IU
1 gitaxian probe
2 cabal ritual
4 dark ritual
4 burning wish
3 infernal tutor
4 lion's eye diamond
4 sensei's divining top
4 lotus petal
3 ponder
4 brainstorm
2 underground sea
2 volcanic
1 tundra
4 polluted delta
4 flooded strand
1 island
1 swamp
1 plains

I'm also contemplating cutting probe and using meditate to go to 60 cards since I'm not running the full probes for IU because I'm still not sure if running IU is worth it with only 1 probe... I'm thinking 1 is enough for piles but it's definitely better with the full 4 probes.

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS

12-31-2011, 03:56 AM

list

Those seem like OK cuts, but like you said your list is pretty much all over the place. If it works, it works I guess.

If you're running Cabal Ritual, you probably want to try and make room for Rain of Filth. That card is the nuts. It lets you win games you have no right winning.

To be honest, I'm not fan of running Infernal Tutor in the Burning Wish builds because it makes it hard to cram everything into the deck.

Meditate seems like a move in the right direction if you can't run the full set of probes.

j_rb

12-31-2011, 04:09 AM

Infernal Tutor: hard to cram everything into the deck.

Yea the list is very tight with infernals in it, but it's been working. They have actually saved my ass in a couple matches.

In my local meta we have people playing mostly t1 and some t2 decks and I have only lost 2 matches in the 8 legacy tourneys I've played in and the losses were due to my own play errors (I'm not saying this list is amazing but it has been working well). It's been working great but plays a lil clunky due to infernal + wish but I think IGG will make the deck more solid since you can go silence + IGG route against control if you need too. Also, I win most of the games through chant into a line to win, mostly using doomsday. 7 chant effects is just the nuts most of the time against control.
I'm cutting the 1 probe for IGG and the IU for meditate. This seems to be more reasonable than running 1 probe and IU.

3 orim's chant
4 silence
2 doomsday
1 ad nauseam
1 ill-gotten gains
1 meditate
2 cabal ritual
4 dark ritual
4 burning wish
4 infernal tutor
4 lion's eye diamond
4 sensei's divining top
4 lotus petal
3 ponder
4 brainstorm
2 underground sea
2 volcanic
1 tundra
4 polluted delta
4 flooded strand
1 island
1 swamp
1 plains

sb
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Deathmark
1 Doomsday
1 Duress
2 Echoing Truth
1 Empty the Warrens
1 rebuild
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Time Spiral
1 grapeshot
1 helm of awakening
1 patrician's scorn
1 oust
1 infest

I'm gonna test this list for a couple weeks and see how it goes... I need to stop changing shit so I'm going to stick with this list for at least a week before changing anything.

metalhead

12-31-2011, 09:39 AM

Those seem like OK cuts, but like you said your list is pretty much all over the place. If it works, it works I guess.

If you're running Cabal Ritual, you probably want to try and make room for Rain of Filth. That card is the nuts. It lets you win games you have no right winning.

To be honest, I'm not fan of running Infernal Tutor in the Burning Wish builds because it makes it hard to cram everything into the deck.

Meditate seems like a move in the right direction if you can't run the full set of probes.

I'm going to have to second this. Rain of filth is bonkers and much easier on your initial mana and life loss from ad. While typically netting you more mana than cabal and dodging spell snare.

Meditate vs IU has been discussed a lot but. Personally I would want at least 3 probes with IU I've built many piles on the fly that used more than one probe.

As far as iggy and infernal are concerned if your still new to the deck they are an ok crutch/plan B. But ide suggest you use them as last ditch efforts and always try to see if you can win with doomsday. Once you've got a fairly firm grasp on doomsday you'll realize iggy is clunky an not needed.

j_rb

12-31-2011, 09:58 AM

Meditate vs IU has been discussed a lot but. Personally I would want at least 3 probes with IU I've built many piles on the fly that used more than one probe.

I totally agree and have experience playing with probes/IU. It's easier on the mana and sometimes you need more than 1-2 probes for your pile so I decided to run meditate.

As far as iggy and infernal are concerned if your still new to the deck they are an ok crutch/plan B. But ide suggest you use them as last ditch efforts and always try to see if you can win with doomsday. Once you've got a fairly firm grasp on doomsday you'll realize iggy is clunky an not needed.

I'm not sure if I agree with this, and I may be wrong, but infernal/IGG is always a solid plan against aggro, which is why the German Ubwg DDFT variant uses it.I agree that it's definitely a last ditch thing unelss playing zoo or burn or something, and I may not need the IGG maindeck but I'm willing to test it maindeck in my list until I feel it isn't needed. I kinda went with my janky list to make the deck as flexible as possible and so far in testing it's very flexible and has so many different ways to win. As is I kill with doomsday 90% of the time, but the deck has other lines to win that don't involve doomsday, which is why I like the infernal/igg and wishboard in the same deck. It may be watering the deck down, I'm not sure, but I will have to do more testing before I pilot it at any big tournament. I will probably go with a more streamlined Ubrw DDFT list for the upcoming SCG Atl and will not play my jankier list until I have put more games in with it.

I'm going to have to second this. Rain of filth is bonkers and much easier on your initial mana and life loss from ad. While typically netting you more mana than cabal and dodging spell snare.

I really hate cabal ritual, so do you guys think I should cut one possibly for a rain of filth? It seems better than cabal in every single situation I can think of. Should I possibly just cut both the cabals to shave the deck down to 60 cards and put in 1 rain of filth? I'm still not sure.

metalhead

01-01-2012, 03:25 PM

I totally agree and have experience playing with probes/IU. It's easier on the mana and sometimes you need more than 1-2 probes for your pile so I decided to run meditate.

I'm not sure if I agree with this, and I may be wrong, but infernal/IGG is always a solid plan against aggro, which is why the German Ubwg DDFT variant uses it.I agree that it's definitely a last ditch thing unelss playing zoo or burn or something, and I may not need the IGG maindeck but I'm willing to test it maindeck in my list until I feel it isn't needed. I kinda went with my janky list to make the deck as flexible as possible and so far in testing it's very flexible and has so many different ways to win. As is I kill with doomsday 90% of the time, but the deck has other lines to win that don't involve doomsday, which is why I like the infernal/igg and wishboard in the same deck. It may be watering the deck down, I'm not sure, but I will have to do more testing before I pilot it at any big tournament. I will probably go with a more streamlined Ubrw DDFT list for the upcoming SCG Atl and will not play my jankier list until I have put more games in with it.

I really hate cabal ritual, so do you guys think I should cut one possibly for a rain of filth? It seems better than cabal in every single situation I can think of. Should I possibly just cut both the cabals to shave the deck down to 60 cards and put in 1 rain of filth? I'm still not sure.

In 2 of the last 3 events i played. 2 5ks and 1 legacy challenge. I played infernals and iggy in my main because i had not had a chance to play or test in a long time so i went ahead and played them as a crutch. even while rusty i ended up only using iggy twice and neither time was an iggy loop. i used it once against u/w stoneblade just to fluff my storm, and once against elves combo just to make sure he hadnt topdecked a mindbreak trap game 2. I also only used Infernal tutor twice once was to find doomsday with 3 LEDs and a top in play. the other time was for a verry strange on the fly pile that any cantrip would have done the same job.

You realy do not need iggy against aggro. I won over half my games againt non blue decks on turn 2 this included beating a turn 2 teeg from maveric and turn 1 thoughtseize turn two teeg from the rock.

I will admit i was playing a fairly aggressive consistent RUB list without chants which made my mana verry smooth and consistant but the lack of chant made my snapcaster matchups terrible.

P.s. Yes at least one cabal ritual should be replaced with rain of filth. That card is so good ive considered adding a second. though there terrible in multiples drawing one is soooo good. And unlike cabal ritual it can actually be usefull in a doomsday pile where as cabal ritual is strait terrible post doomsday.

flrn

01-01-2012, 04:03 PM

I'm not sure if I agree with this, and I may be wrong, but infernal/IGG is always a solid plan against aggro, which is why the German Ubwg DDFT variant uses it.I agree that it's definitely a last ditch thing unelss playing zoo or burn or something, and I may not need the IGG maindeck but I'm willing to test it maindeck in my list until I feel it isn't needed.

Yeah and there is a reason, why both Nemavera and I decided to run an UBrw variant at GP Amsterdam rather than the german list. Because it is actually a better deck. The only reason to play IGG main is to have the 1U pass the turn pile available. If you're having problems against aggro decks without IGG, you probably should play another deck.

j_rb

01-01-2012, 05:40 PM

Yeah and there is a reason, why both Nemavera and I decided to run an UBrw variant at GP Amsterdam rather than the german list. Because it is actually a better deck. The only reason to play IGG main is to have the 1U pass the turn pile available. If you're having problems against aggro decks without IGG, you probably should play another deck.

I realize by your statement that you thought I was suggesting using IGG primarily against aggro, but I was not and was saying it's a solid plan B. I like it because it can help you be more versatile pre and post doomsday.

I would never even think of running my other list at a bigger tournament, I'm just testing it.

I also am running the Ubwr list at scg atl this weekend. I even said it in my other post 2 post up.

here's my list.

3 orim's chant
4 silence
3 doomsday
1 IU
1 ad nauseam
4 probe
1 rain of filth
4 dark ritual
4 burning wish
4 lion's eye diamond
4 sensei's divining top
4 lotus petal
4 ponder
4 brainstorm
2 underground sea
2 volcanic
1 tundra
4 polluted delta
4 flooded strand
1 island
1 swamp
1 plains

sb
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Deathmark
1 Doomsday
1 Duress
1 Echoing Truth
1 Empty the Warrens
1 rebuild
1 Diminishing returns
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Time Spiral
1 grapeshot
1 helm of awakening
1 IU
1 oust
1 virtue's ruin

rebuild probably going to be changed to meltdowsn.

emidln

01-01-2012, 05:52 PM

j_rb

01-01-2012, 06:23 PM

Diminishing Returns is awful; don't play it.

Infernal Contract has always been more valuable to me in the board than Ideas Unbound. Being not blue can be important.

Oust seems pretty redundant with Virtue's Ruin. The only time you really want it over Silent Departure would be vs Aven Mindcensor, where you probably want to just Deathmark or Virtue's Ruin instead.

Flusterstorm is mostly against Thoughtseize decks (storm, reanimator, BUG). It's less useful against the RUG tempo builds.

I was posting my list hoping someone would give me sb suggestions. I'll definitely use contract over IU since RUG tempo cant blast it. Oust does seem redundant. Didn't really notice it till you brought it up but you're right.

My sb makes for sense for my meta since it's tons of maverick rug and death and taxes, but i'll need to switch it up for the starcity open.

How many flusterstorms should I use, 1 storm and a divert or 2 flusterstorms? I was using divert at one point and really liked it.

oust was also there against reanimator.

emidln

01-01-2012, 06:27 PM

I was posting my list hoping someone would give me sb suggestions. I'll definitely use contract over IU since RUG tempo cant blast it. Oust does seem redundant. Didn't really notice it till you brought it up but you're right.

My sb makes for sense for my meta since it's tons of maverick rug and death and taxes, but i'll need to switch it up for the starcity open.

How many flusterstorms should I use, 1 storm and a divert or 2 flusterstorms? I was using divert at one point and really liked it.

The flusterstorm comment wasn't directly targeted at your last post. I do not play Flusterstorm right now.

j_rb

01-01-2012, 06:30 PM

The flusterstorm comment wasn't directly targeted at your last post. I do not play Flusterstorm right now.

I realize this but need storms in my board, how many do you suggest running? I'm expecting a good bit of discard at the starcity as team america and bug is usually played a good bit around these parts.

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS

01-01-2012, 06:42 PM

Divert does more justice against the BUG-style decks.

j_rb

01-01-2012, 06:49 PM

Divert does more justice against the BUG-style decks.

I'll probably change the DR in my board to divert and IU to contract and roll with that for the open.
'
should be good with those changes against anything blue, which is why i love the chant builds. I haven't tested much against bug but have against other rug and tempo variants and the deck just seems to outplay them running so many damn silence effects.

Namida

01-02-2012, 09:55 PM

I have to admit that my experience is lacking here. What about this deck and its match against discard makes it a good idea to sideboard in Flusterstorm/Divert? It just doesn't seem effective to me. The deck is set up pretty well against discard in my opinion, because Doomsday, Ad Nauseam, and Burning Wish into Time Spiral are pretty good at making storm come out of nowhere, along with Top to help you find what you need even if you don't have anything in your hand. Given that you're normally trying to deal with Thoughtseize/Hymn in the first turns of the game, it looks like you're siding in one or two copies of some counters and just hoping they're in your opening hand. And it doesn't seem like the match against discard is so bad that you would want to dedicate the max number of anti-discard cards to a sideboard made much smaller by a wishboard.

Grigory

01-06-2012, 02:24 AM

My understanding is that Flusterstorm shores up the combo mirror, and can come in for silence in some random MUs. In this it isn't simply a spell that you hope to draw only in your opener. I guess this double-duty could make it a viable sb choice if you expected a lot of combo and discard, where divert would be too narrow.

I don't think a basic swamp belongs in this list. A second tundra would be nicer to you.

vilik

01-07-2012, 06:35 PM

Today I played the 4C DDFT list from GP Amsterdam with modified SB to a 5-1-1 finish. 5th place / 60+ players without Top8 tied with 3rd on points. After cca 3 months geeting the hang of it :cool:

Maindeck feels very strong, pretty much 99% optimized. The only card I'm not 100% sure of is Ad Nauseam, but when it is good it wins games. Having trouble with enchantmens, burn/sligh (deck) and Aven Mindcensor (card).

Good SB plan against fast clock is -4x BW, -1x Ad Nauseam, +1x DD, +1 Tendrils, +1 Duress, +2x X

SB:
Shelldock + Emrakul - Have not used, but still keep it beign scared of CB-top (seen one today).
Helm + Grapeshot - Have trouble utilizing this actually, sided it in several times, only once actually killed with it. Maverick has Stony Silence, so I do not even side it here.

Sorry for the rant and thanks to the creators, I'm having a blast:smile:

Namida

01-07-2012, 11:26 PM

Are you saying that you're having trouble with permanents that are enchantments, or the Enchantress deck? If you mean the latter, that Emrakul/Shelldock Isle you mentioned never siding in would be my advice.

Losing to Burn is kind of embarrassing, but I've been having the same problem. It's a die-roll for me at best because the deck doesn't have the pass the turn pile that IT/IGG affords, and I seem to always get blown out by Fireblast unless I draw an amazing hand that kills on turn two. But the prevailing notion is that aggro is a bye, so I think it's that I'm not mulliganning aggressively enough or something.

Dark Ritual

01-08-2012, 12:27 AM

If you're having much trouble with burn board in flusterstorms. Also, try to chant/silence before you DD against them unless you know they don't have fireblast or such and such cards. I've also traded silence/chant 1 for 1 for their rift bolts because suspended rift bolts can't be cast when you silence them with the suspend trigger on the stack. This is the MU where you wish you had the option of IGG looping them out.

If you're having trouble with enchantments, either board in shelldock emrakul or run a one of paraselene or other enchantment sweeper as a burning wish target. Enchantress cannot reliably beat this deck since they take forever to kill you so you have all the time in the world to set up.

vilik

01-08-2012, 02:33 PM

Are you saying that you're having trouble with permanents that are enchantments, or the Enchantress deck? If you mean the latter, that Emrakul/Shelldock Isle you mentioned never siding in would be my advice.

The former, i.e. Stony Silence, Pyrostatic Pillar, etc. (Enchantress as a deck is a non-issue)

These permanents are troublesome because of the context. Example UR Delver playing Pillar - you need to preserve chant effects to go off protected and BAM, they lay Pillar. Good luck finding the two-of boarded bounce. Or Maverick playing E-Tutor into Stoty Silence - good players will sit on three untapped mana, forcing you to chant in your turn to get Mindcensor out of their hand and BAM, Stony Silence.

Boarding Paraselene seems like a reasonable idea.

I honestly do not like the idea of boarding in counters. I will admit not testing it though. I mean to consistently see a card (Flusterstorm) you need to board what like three copies? I dont have room for that in SB. I have seen people siding single copy of card like Flusterstorm and seems totally random. Mise I guess. I like siding in one-of that you can use in DD pile though, like Chain or Deathmark.

I will try to work IGGY into the the deck. I seriously think burn is my worst matchup ATM.

j_rb

01-09-2012, 01:46 AM

The former, i.e. Stony Silence, Pyrostatic Pillar, etc. (Enchantress as a deck is a non-issue)
I like siding in one-of that you can use in DD pile though, like Chain or Deathmark.

I like patrician's scorn against enchantress. It's actually in my meta some and I board one scorn.

Also, if you are running the Ubrw ddft version it's usually fast enough against burn to just win on turn 2-3. Most burn list don't run fireblast anymore also, although if people in your meta are running it, I would suggest what dark ritual said and using chant as a defensive card.

vilik

01-09-2012, 05:53 AM

Also, if you are running the Ubrw ddft version it's usually fast enough against burn to just win on turn 2-3.

This deck does not consistenly win on turn 2.5 (moreso protected)

Most burn list don't run fireblast anymore also...

Not true, atleast not for my meta. In general running burn without fireblast is a mistake anyway.

I would suggest what dark ritual said and using chant as a defensive card.

You obviously have to do that, otherwise you just lose. But that still does not make the matchup positive. You need BBBUUW + SDT in play or cantrip mana or 2+ life post DD AND you need that on turn 2-3. Not realistic.

I still think IGGY is the way to go.

Final Fortune

01-09-2012, 06:12 AM

Sorry, but doesn't cutting Tendrils of Agony and Ill Gotten Gains from your decks completely prevent you guys from winning with Doomsday, go piles and stop you from Burning Wish -> Infernal Tutor vs. decks like Zoo/Sligh that just hold burn and kill you if you're not playing Orim's Chant first?

I mean I play the UBR version with 4 Gitaxian Probe, Ideas Unbound and a MD Tendrils of Agony and Ill Gotten Gains, and really I can't think of anything the deck "needs" in those two slots unless you want to play 17 land or a couple of Preordains.

leegoo

01-09-2012, 07:48 AM

The problem is that the IGG pass the turn pile is only (generally) effective in the matchups you guys are talking about having trouble with (burn, u/r, zoo, etc) on turn 1. Beyond that, passing the turn after a doomsday is just begging to get burned out.

The other problem is that IGG is a mulligan in your opening hand and a dead draw 99% of the time after that.

In any matchup with U in it, IGG is pretty much terrible without a chant, but if you can set up a pile with chant and IGG, you are usually just winning more.

This is all considering you are playing a list similar to the GP one of course, there are a million ways to build doomsday depending on your meta.

bennotsi

01-09-2012, 08:02 AM

You can still use Ill-Gotten Gains as a wish target in UBrw Doomsday and get similar IGG-loops like you have in TES, at least that's what I'm doing.

The key idea here is that IGG is a complement to Doomsday, NOT a replacement. IGG in your wishboard turns a couple of hands that are otherwise mediocre or even bad, into hands that are quite decent. For example, 2 LEDs and 2 Burning Wish and no SDT in play would normally not be your favorite hand. With IGG in your wishboard you just need a silence or a chant and you're ready to combo. One of my favorites is 1 Dark Ritual, 1 Infernal Tutor, 1 LED, 1 BW, which gives you an IGG loop for just BR.

I play an Infernal Tutor instead of the maindeck Ad Nauseam in Nemavera's list. I like how it acts as the 8th business spell or finds a second Silence or LED. I know that many people here won't agree with me on playing IT, I guess it's a personal preference.

Also, I don't like playing Tendrils or IGG main, if I would have to go back to that, I'll consider playing ANT or TES first.

emidln

01-09-2012, 04:14 PM

I built this as a pass the turn pile recently:

Ideas Unbound
Lion's Eye Diamond
Lion's Eye Diamond
Burning Wish
Burning Wish

I was holding another Orim's Chant + Gitaxian Probe when I cast Doomsday, but wouldn't have been able to win the turn I cast Doomsday. I was able to Wish->Time Spiral and Time Spiral to draw my deck.

Pass the turn piles are pretty risky and pretty rare these days. You don't really want to play turn 1 rit, dd, go against anything except maybe Zoo or Burn, and both of those can be pretty risky if on the draw.

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS

01-09-2012, 04:32 PM

emidln

01-09-2012, 05:58 PM

What were you playing against?

TempoThresh. He had an extra spell pierce on the turn I was casting Chant-protected Doomsday to make me not win that turn. I had Chants to spare (not enough black before this turn) so I could afford to pass the turn.

Pulp_Fiction

01-09-2012, 11:52 PM

TempoThresh. He had an extra spell pierce on the turn I was casting Chant-protected Doomsday to make me not win that turn. I had Chants to spare (not enough black before this turn) so I could afford to pass the turn.

How many lands/Petals did you have in play? I assume this was a turn 4 .... pass the turn pile minumum.

j_rb

01-10-2012, 03:12 AM

This deck does not consistenly win on turn 2.5 (moreso protected)
You need BBBUUW + SDT in play or cantrip mana or 2+ life post DD AND you need that on turn 2-3. Not realistic.

First of all, I would mulligan aggressively against burn because you need a fast win without iggy. I would try and set up a turn 1 pass pile (which is dangerous) or just win fast with a dd into a cantrip on turn 2-3. If they hold up mana you obviously need a chant. Most players will tap out on turn 2 so fireblast is all you have to avoid, which is easy post DD. A DD from 14 and probe or a DD from 10 still keeps you safe from blast.

You do not need the chant if you are going off turn 1-2 against burn, unless they are passing the turn with all their lands untapped. BBB UU is easy to get by turn 2-3 with led, rit or rit, petal.

When I was playing Ubrw (the gp list), common hands were turn 2 and 3 kills against no resistance, unfortunately my meta is filled with control so they were turn 3-4 kills.

Most of my hands had either a combination of led, rit or petal, rit and usually a top, probe or other cantrips that I could use to find a rit or doomsday/wish.

I still think IGGY is the way to go.

Iggy is still slower if you are trying to go this route with just led and rits, unless you are running cabal ritual, which burning wish variants don't.

Do you think it's easier getting 5 and a probe/top, getting 6 mana and cantrip; or getting 8 mana and 2 burning wishes for an igg loop with burning wish? I'd rather take a chance with the 15 cantrips in the deck than the 4 burning wishes. If you aren't playing a burning wish variant, of course IGG is the way to go, but IGG is slower if you are hoping you get enough mana to win with it and 2 burning wishes. I will agree that IGG is a decent sideboard card because if you get lucky you can get an easy kill with it. I was always a fan of DR against fast decks and decks that attack your resources. It was really common to Dr into a burning wish into a tendrils kill. I know you all hate DR it's just a preference I have and lets me be fast when I need to be.

You can still use Ill-Gotten Gains as a wish target in UBrw Doomsday and get similar IGG-loops like you have in TES, at least that's what I'm doing.

You get similar g1 IGG setups, and only if you are running some infernals MD.

In the Ubrw list, you can't use IGG. In a Ubr list it's a lot higher.

vilik

01-10-2012, 07:37 AM

I was always a fan of DR against fast decks and decks that attack your resources. It was really common to Dr into a burning wish into a tendrils kill. I know you all hate DR it's just a preference I have and lets me be fast when I need to be.

These acronyms are killing me. What the heck is DR? Dark Ritual? Dread Return?

Other than that, my experience with the speed of the deck seems to be very different from yours. For example during the last tourney of 7 rounds, I had single T2 kill (unprotected), and I do not remember any T3 kills.

bennotsi

01-10-2012, 07:52 AM

These acronyms are killing me. What the heck is DR? Dark Ritual? Dread Return?

Other than that, my experience with the speed of the deck seems to be very different from yours. For example during the last tourney of 7 rounds, I had single T2 kill (unprotected), and I do not remember any T3 kills.

I think he means Diminishing Returns. DR means either that or Dark Ritual in the context of storm combo decks, not Dread Return.

Which version of the deck were you playing? If you're playing the UBrw list and you don't have any turn 3 kills the whole day, I think you're doing something wrong. The deck should quite consistently combo with protection on turn 3 or 4.

metalhead

01-10-2012, 10:43 AM

Other than that, my experience with the speed of the deck seems to be very different from yours. For example during the last tourney of 7 rounds, I had single T2 kill (unprotected), and I do not remember any T3 kills.

The 4 probe, 4 burning wish, IU builds actually have a verry consistent turn 2 goldfish. At SC Indie I won 8-9 games on turn 2 as well as haveing one more turn two hand that got raped by therapy + 2 turn 1 hands. One of which got hit by therapy on the draw. The other my opponent had force+ daze.

Admiral_Arzar

01-10-2012, 11:10 AM

The 4 probe, 4 burning wish, IU builds actually have a verry consistent turn 2 goldfish. At SC Indie I won 8-9 games on turn 2 as well as haveing one more turn two hand that got raped by therapy + 2 turn 1 hands. One of which got hit by therapy on the draw. The other my opponent had force+ daze.

I think experience drastically increases the number of early kills with every Doomsday list. I'm going to have to experiment with your list though - I haven't played Doomsday in like a year, so relearning it isn't going to be pleasant. I do enjoy fast lists though.

EDIT: 666th post \m/

metalhead

01-10-2012, 11:22 AM

I think experience drastically increases the number of early kills with every Doomsday list. I'm going to have to experiment with your list though - I haven't played Doomsday in like a year, so relearning it isn't going to be pleasant. I do enjoy fast lists though.

EDIT: 666th post \m/

The list I played can be found on storm boards. Ide link but I'm my phone at work atm. I think after the event I cut an infernal+iggy and added +1duress/seize +1 ponder.

emidln

01-10-2012, 02:48 PM

The limiting factor for goldfish speed in the newer Doomsday lists is ability to cast Doomsday. If you wanted to build a purely goldfish list, you could very consistently kill on turn 2 by playing with Burning Wish, Doomsday, and Personal Tutor and increasing Cabal Ritual count while removing protection. The resulting deck is an extremely consistent turn 2 kill with high possibility of a turn 1.

The kill for Doomsday is usually the same number of cards required as for IT->IGG. Doomsday tends to be able to sub draw spells for rituals at a net of 2-3 mana after the first BBB or so. Depending on the actual cards, it's as efficient or more efficient than than IT->AdN. It's never more efficient in cards than naturally drawn Ad Nauseam when killing this turn (2-3 cards for AdN, typically 3-4 cards for Doomsday).

When playing games against opponents, lines of plays that can lead to turn 2 kills are often non-optimal for playing against disruption and thus are skipped. You consequently see aggro players goldfished way more often turn 2 when Doomsday is on the draw due to being able to make the most aggressive turn 1 play to setup the turn 2 kill. On the play, the same hands result in turn 3 and 4 kills due to the Doomsday player opening with a more conservative line.

Namida

01-10-2012, 07:07 PM

Perhaps it's my inexperience showing, but I'm just not seeing how people are getting consistent turn two kills. I'm guessing that the issue is a lack of ability on my part to evaluate opening hands. In particular, I don't feel like I can just up and kill someone out of nowhere with consistency because Doomsday is so black intensive in a deck without a glut of black sources, which means that I find myself only unable to kill my opponent because I can't cast Doomsday unless I've opened/drawn a Dark Ritual, or waited a few turns to make BBB off of some combination of Lotus Petal and my land drops. I'm also assuming I'm making a mistake in keeping cantrip heavy hands even though I don't open with Burning Wish/Doomsday in hand, or something. So, I'm going to ask for some advice on sample hands here.

The list I'm using is the 4C list. I shuffled up and drew a bunch of opening hands. Which hands would you keep? Which hands would you mulligan, and why?

Hand 1: Doomsday, Doomsday, Burning Wish, Silence, Lotus Petal, Badlands, Polluted Delta

Hand 2: Dark Ritual, Silence, Sensei's Divining Top, Brainstorm, Gitaxian Probe, Tundra, Polluted Delta

Hand 3: Doomsday, Burning Wish, Lotus Petal, Lotus Petal, Brainstorm, Ponder, Tundra

Hand 4: Burning Wish, Lion's Eye Diamond, Ponder, Flooded Strand, Flooded Strand, Polluted Delta

Hand 5: Dark Ritual, Brainstorm, Gitaxian Probe, Gitaxian Probe, Tundra, Polluted Delta, Polluted Delta

Hand 6: Burning Wish, Lion's Eye Diamond, Lion's Eye Diamond, Ideas Unbound, Brainstorm, Gitaxian Probe, Flooded Strand

Hand 7: Burning Wish, Lion's Eye Diamond, Orim's Chant, Brainstorm, Ponder, Plains, Tundra

Hand 8: Doomsday, Lotus Petal, Sensei's Divining Top, Brainstorm, Silence, Flooded Strand, Volcanic Island

Hand 9: Gitaxian Probe, Sensei's Divining Top, Brainstorm, Tundra, Island, Flooded Strand, Polluted Delta

Hand 10: Doomsday, Burning Wish, Lotus Petal, Silence, Island, Flooded Strand, Polluted Delta

In shuffling up and drawing these sample hands, I threw back all of the hands that I could easily identify as hands that would kill on turn one or two, which amounted to three hands. There were also three hands that were certain mulligans via no land, etc.

emidln

01-10-2012, 08:21 PM

Hand 1: Doomsday, Doomsday, Burning Wish, Silence, Lotus Petal, Badlands, Polluted Delta

Garbage. No Manipulation.

Hand 2: Dark Ritual, Silence, Sensei's Divining Top, Brainstorm, Gitaxian Probe, Tundra, Polluted Delta

Keep, this is a turn 2 hand if you want to gamble a little and a likely turn 3 if played conservatively. You lead Tundra->Top, and then Brainstorm + Fetch into something else. Brainstorm in your main phase.

Hand 3: Doomsday, Burning Wish, Lotus Petal, Lotus Petal, Brainstorm, Ponder, Tundra

I'd keep and lead on Tundra -> Ponder.

Hand 4: Burning Wish, Lion's Eye Diamond, Ponder, Flooded Strand, Flooded Strand, Polluted Delta

I'd probably keep this and Ponder on turn 2, maybe turn 3 depending on what I saw out of my opponent. 5 cards is rough and hopefully 1-2 draws evens out what you'd like to Ponder for. The thing about turn 1 Ponder is that if you shuffle off Ponder, you likely lose the game.

Hand 5: Dark Ritual, Brainstorm, Gitaxian Probe, Gitaxian Probe, Tundra, Polluted Delta, Polluted Delta

Keep. Lead Fetch, next turn play tundra, and brainstorm off it. Your plays branch from there. You keep back Probe in case you draw Doomsdays since they will insta-kill an opponent.

Hand 6: Burning Wish, Lion's Eye Diamond, Lion's Eye Diamond, Ideas Unbound, Brainstorm, Gitaxian Probe, Flooded Strand

Easy Keep for 12+ goblins on turn 1 via Strand->land, brainstorm Wish to the top, led, led, cycle probe breaking for RRRXXX and drawing Wish into ETW. Might get lucky and just kill them too, but worst case 12 goblins.

Hand 7: Burning Wish, Lion's Eye Diamond, Orim's Chant, Brainstorm, Ponder, Plains, Tundra

Plains concerns me a little, but the hand is fine. Lead Ponder.

Hand 8: Doomsday, Lotus Petal, Sensei's Divining Top, Brainstorm, Silence, Flooded Strand, Volcanic Island

in a real game I'd lead volc->top, upkeep top, play fetch, pass more than likely. Since I'm trying to kill you asap, i fetch sea into top, pass, draw, brainstorm and hope to draw LED/Dark Rit and any draw spell to kill you on turn 2, although it's probably turn 3.

Hand 9: Gitaxian Probe, Sensei's Divining Top, Brainstorm, Tundra, Island, Flooded Strand, Polluted Delta

This is an okay, but not great keep. SDT->Brainstorm + fetch and hope to god you don't draw more than one land. 6 aren't likely better.

Hand 10: Doomsday, Burning Wish, Lotus Petal, Silence, Island, Flooded Strand, Polluted Delta

I ship hands without manipulation unless I can guaranteed kill you.

bennotsi

01-12-2012, 03:31 AM

Would you consider keeping hand 1 and 10 if there were a Ponder in your sideboard?

Another question:
How often do you guys use Sensei's Divining Top's ability to reorder the top 3 in your second turn upkeep?

It's a bit of a slow play I guess, but when I only have one other Ponder/Brainstorm I tend to do it pretty often.

leegoo

01-12-2012, 07:00 AM

Would you consider keeping hand 1 and 10 if there were a Ponder in your sideboard?

If ponder were in my board, I would still never consider keeping a hand where my line was to wish into ponder and hope to get there.

Another question:
How often do you guys use Sensei's Divining Top's ability to reorder the top 3 in your second turn upkeep?

for me it's pretty often. It depends on what the rest of my hand looks like, but if I am not guaranteed to hit my 2nd land drop or have a shuffle effect ready to go, I usually top to guarantee I am drawing the best card of the 3. (all this considering I do not have the win of course) If you don't *need* anything immediately, or need quite a bit, it's also reasonable to wait and see what you draw first.

It's a bit of a slow play I guess, but when I only have one other Ponder/Brainstorm I tend to do it pretty often.

situational, but I won't always top if I have ponder or BS/fetch in hand, especially if it's a race style matchup where you can't just grind out better draws for infinite turns.

OurSerratedDust

01-12-2012, 10:53 PM

Another question:
How often do you guys use Sensei's Divining Top's ability to reorder the top 3 in your second turn upkeep?

It's a bit of a slow play I guess, but when I only have one other Ponder/Brainstorm I tend to do it pretty often.

I do this all the time. Usually go for it if you don't have a strong turn 2 play.

j_rb

01-13-2012, 04:01 AM

Would you consider keeping hand 1 and 10 if there were a Ponder in your sideboard?

Probably not. Relying on Burning Wish resolving to get a cantrip isn't a great plan. It would be better to just mulligan.

Another question:
How often do you guys use Sensei's Divining Top's ability to reorder the top 3 in your second turn upkeep?

Mainly I use this to hit my second land drop if I keep a 1 land hand, which I wouldn't recommend unless the rest is teh nuts.

I also do it in matches that are slower and grindy like the stoneblade and landstill MU's to make sure I get the best card selection my deck has to offer.

OurSerratedDust

01-18-2012, 10:27 AM

Noting that the top 3 decks are Maverick, U/w Stoneblade and RUG Tempo, what are the best ways DDFT can beat them?

I think having Helm of Awakening will be a great help in beating Maverick (beats Teeg and Cannonist.) Unfortunately, SI/Emrakul seems pretty weak in the meta, so maybe we should put those away for now. What else can we pack to beat these guys?

Dark Ritual

01-18-2012, 03:48 PM

7 Chant burning wish build can plow through canadian thresh. I agree right now that shelldock is bad due to how much wastelands are running around.

Wishing for ponder to try to get there just sounds awful. Would you run a ponder that costs 1RU? Hell no, that card would be quite bad unless it could also burn something like gaddock teeg or canonist.

I would run helmshot in the board right now to completely circumvent maverick. The only problem with this notion is that it's completely cold to mindbreak trap, something maverick usually has in the board.

Agreed with emidln on no manipulation hands. You don't keep those unless you can for sure kill them with the opening hand i.e. you have led's, petal, and burning wish for EtW on turn 1 and even then EtW is risky if the opponent boarded for it or they have EE or pernicious deed/an answer.

j_rb

01-19-2012, 12:31 AM

Noting that the top 3 decks are Maverick, U/w Stoneblade and RUG Tempo, what are the best ways DDFT can beat them?

Chants/abolisher beats rug/stoneblade most the time and the best way to combat Maverick is with helm shot. I also like to side in a grand abolisher against maverick because they board out their removal and if you land one you are safe for the helm/shot. Also, if they have gaddock teeg and cannonist you just win with helmshot because they can't play mindbreak trap. For rug it's best to chant before you doomsday so you don't get magically burned out of a game.

Togores

01-19-2012, 11:42 AM

This saturday i played ddft in the madrid legacy league with 85+ players.
getting to a top 8 finish only losing round one and top 8 vs counterbalance played by Baillo the 2010 bazar of moxen vintage winner.
He was the one of the only 2 CB decks in the event and the other was played by a bad player.

i have made a realy long report in spanish i will try to made it in english. if someone wants the spanish version its here: http://www.factoriademishra.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=6926 (http://www.factoriademishra.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=6926)

this is the decklist i sleeved in, the snap in the SB should have been the wipe away i usualy play.

4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Silence
4 Orim's Chant

1 Laboratory maniac
1 Ideas Unbound

4 Burning Wish
3 Doomsday
1 Ad nauseam

4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

2 Badland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Island
1 Plains
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland

//Sideboard:
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Shelldock Isle
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Snap
1 Grapeshot
1 Helm of Awakening
1 Oust
1 Doomsday
1 Duress
1 Emtpy the Warrens
2 Virtu´s Ruin
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Time Spiral

caggii

01-21-2012, 01:51 PM

What are some benefits to playing this over say tes? I have some time playing vintage doomsday and a decent amount of goldfish practice. I just love doomsday and want to play it but also want to play the storm deck with the best ev.

Togores

01-22-2012, 12:56 PM

i played yesterday the list above, only puting out the emmy and sheldock combo for infest and pulverize, losing only to the winner with gw zenith, its a hard matchup, i have not a good plan agianst them, or at least a 100% good. the virutes ruin are great but yesterday for example he sided in 12 cards vs me. 2 tutor, 2 aetersworn, 2 choke, one more gadog teg, 2 krosan and i dont know more. may be mindbreak or chant. and this added to the fact that he play main deck tegg and aven mindcesor and wasteland makes it a too hard matchup. i have to keep thinking of this but along with counterbalance this are the 2 hardes matchups u,u

i putet the emmy island combo out because at my weekly locals i dont use it, but this time i would been able to use it 3 times. 1st against turbo fog, but i winn 2-0 easy but with emmy would be faster. and then i won agaisnt 2 sneak and show. 1st game i won both and 2nd game both of them smashed me a 3rd turn triniesphere. i won this both also. i wished fast for pulverize and then i was hollding back a chant or two wich i culd play with kiker, they dont wanted to tap out to make theyr fows online. so they waited to be able to play sneak atack with activation. thats all without manipulation. and in one of them i had top in table already.

so when they went with sneak into battle i chant them his mosnter dies and i won on my turn, because i have ile 6 mana on table i pay3 to eat the triniesphere and then chant them and winn. all this would have been a lot easier if i would have emmy on my sb, so im not thinking to cut it nevermore.

there was a funny game 1 agaisnt one of the sneak atack players.
i go chant he forces, i go chant he forces and the turn before i saw his hand and he had nothing only one card i dont know. so i make calulations and decide to go for it. when i play doomsday it comes into play, then i play my 1st cantrip and he dazes, wich dont know he was plaing, just added to the deck this day, so i am lose because i can not storm them for the winn, but i have maniac in hand but only 2 manas on table because i had used some petals. he plays show and tell and puts emrakul on table and i put my maniac, then i draw ideas unbound and play it and then another cantrip and i winn ^^

Pulp_Fiction

01-22-2012, 02:33 PM

Thats actually really funny. Show n Tell Maniac ... win ... suck it!!! Awesome. It never ceases to amaze me how often the meta shift and bad cards become decent. Recently I have been playing UBw DDFT with Lab Man in the main and its quite effective. Now given, its basically worthless unless you have a chant but it gives the deck quite a few options. A few months ago I said it was trash, and it was, but now its not bad.

However, if you are running the build with BW it seems like a Sb at best, that deck already has a lot of options, he just seems kind of worthless there. But in my limited testing in UBw it is not bad. They have to tap out or you have a chant for it to work but .. it costs the exact same as a standard Meditate pile (except with a min of 5 life) and wins the game through Teeg. Thats pretty damn good.

KevinTrudeau

01-26-2012, 01:44 PM

If I can manage to borrow enough cards tonight, I plan on sleeving up this:

2 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Plateau
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
2 Marsh Flats

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Ponder

4 Silence
3 Orim's Chant

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
1 Rain of Filth

4 Burning Wish
3 Doomsday
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Ideas Unbound
1 Lotus Petal

SB:
1 Doomsday
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Time Spiral
1 Pyroclasm
1 Pulverize
1 Duress
1 Ideas Unbound
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Shelldock Isle
1 Cloud of Faeries
1 Wipe Away
1 Chain of Vapor
2 Grand Abolisher

I'm pretty sure Empty the Warrens isn't necessary, and could be something else (Silent Departure?). I suppose the sideboard Chain could be Echoing Truth to dodge Chalice at one and for many other reasons, but meh. The manabase is a bit ambitious, but I really like being able to cast Wish on turn two and have a white or three black open for sure (barring land destruction, of course) the following turn. I'm unsure of which potential Wish target is best in fighting Maverick's hatebears, so I just threw in Pyroclasm (mercy, mercy me, how I wish Massacre's CMC were three); Deathmark is probably just better.

Lejay

01-26-2012, 03:43 PM

I predict you some small mana issues because of playing 4 colours with only 1 petal.

You probably feel EtW to not being that necessary because you precisely run only one petal. It isn't a must have even with 4 petals but the fact is that it is much better with the full playset of LP.

The best hate targeted at maverick is probably virtue's ruin because it deals with hate bears+ MoRs+beaters at the same time. It doesn't answers revoker though so be sure to have complementary answers in the board.

I don't agree with some other choices but they're still fine / meta dependent.

Water_Wizard

01-26-2012, 09:36 PM

Also, if they have gaddock teeg and cannonist you just win with helmshot because they can't play mindbreak trap.
With Teeg no MBT, but with Canonist, they can play it, right (assuming it was the first spell they cast that turn)?

OurSerratedDust

01-26-2012, 10:55 PM

With Teeg no MBT, but with Canonist, they can play it, right (assuming it was the first spell they cast that turn)?

Yeah, they can. Hopefully you can cast Duress or something before you go off.

Water_Wizard

01-26-2012, 11:22 PM

Yeah, they can. Hopefully you can cast Duress or something before you go off.

Yeah. I think MBT in Maverick is much more common in the European meta. American Mav rarely seems to run it and my only instant-based fear against Mav is when Punishing Mav runs Pyroblast for Ideas Unbound/Meditate. If we are Helmshotting then, this really doesn't matter. You could always rely on a Chant or two to get around MBT as well, I realize most are boarded out, but it's not uncommon to run 1-3 games 2 & 3.

j_rb

01-27-2012, 05:41 AM

Yeah. I think MBT in Maverick is much more common in the European meta. American Mav rarely seems to run it and my only instant-based fear against Mav is when Punishing Mav runs Pyroblast for Ideas Unbound/Meditate. If we are Helmshotting then, this really doesn't matter. You could always rely on a Chant or two to get around MBT as well, I realize most are boarded out, but it's not uncommon to run 1-3 games 2 & 3.

I'll actually leave 3 chants in against maverick as they can be time walks.

I really see helm/shot being the best thing against maverick atm. It totally gets around teeg and canonist with no problems whatsoever, and seeing as how most mav players in the U.S. don't run trap it's not even a problem and you can just dd into helm/shot and if they extraction you can just hold up brainstorm to brainstorm into it.

With Teeg no MBT, but with Canonist, they can play it, right (assuming it was the first spell they cast that turn)?

Yea seeing as how some maverick players go overboard with hate, they usually overextend and play teeg and canonist. Also, if they just play canonist a BW for virtues ruin takes care of it. Virtues ruin is really strong against mav and I like to have at least 1 in my board.

Also, I like playing the 1 ad nauseam in most DD builds in case of aven mindcensor crazyness.

Also, I really like Burning Wish in the current meta. It's insanely powerful and I couldn't imagine myself playing any type of storm variant without it.

KevinTrudeau

02-03-2012, 01:26 AM

I went 3-1 today in my first ever tournament with DDFT. I couldn't manage to borrow enough duals for a Burning Wish variant, so I went with a UBw one instead. It was as follows:

4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
2 Marsh Flats
2 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Island

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe

4 Silence
3 Orim's Chant

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
1 Rain of Filth
1 Lotus Petal

4 Doomsday
3 Infernal Tutor
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Ideas Unbound
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Tendrils of Agony

SB:
4 Thoughtseize
2 Grand Abolisher
2 Rebuild
2 Dread of Night
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Wipe Away
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Shelldock Isle
1 Cloud of Faeries

I don't own sets of Marsh Flats or Flooded Strand, so I had to go with that configuration. My preferred fetchland configuration for this list would be something like 4 Strand, 3 Flats, 2 Delta (7 can fetch basic Plains, 6 can fetch Island, 5 can fetch Swamp), although I'm not sure if ranking Island over Swamp is correct. Other than that very small issue, the maindeck felt very solid. As for the sideboard, it will definitely need some reconfiguring.

Round one was against Bennett, a cool dude that went to my high school, with Blue Zoo. I won game one with a standard SDT in play + 1UU available pile (IU, LED, LED, Ponder, ToA) after Chanting twice. Bennett resolved a Meddling Mage on his second turn in game two (naming Tendrils), a second on his third turn (thankfully naming IT), and got the hat trick on his fourth (naming DDay). I wasn't able to muster enough to come back from that, even after Chanting with kicker twice to buy two additional draw steps. He got out to a blazing start with Steppe Lynx on his first turn of the third game, and resolved another early Meddling Mage (again, naming Tendrils). The turn before I would be dealt lethal, I resolved a Chant, and won with a Slaughter Pact pile.

Round two was against Froggy, the guy lending me the Scrubland I needed, playing a homebrew Rock list. I won game one after I resolved a turn one top, played out my LED, and then eventually Brainstormed (cracking LED in resp) into a Doomsday that I was protecting on top of my library into another standard SDT in play + 1UU floating pile. Fetching basics did wonders in that game. I made my first ever Doomsday punt in game two; Froggy landed a turn 0 Leyline of Sanctity and a turn three Teegmeister (off of GSZ), and after an absolutely sick Brainstorm netted me both Slaughter Pact and Chain of Vapor in hand, I attempted to go off on my turn four with a SDT in play + 1U floating CoV pile. Unfortunately, I'd forgotten that I'd used a Rain of Filth (with three lands in play, two of them untapped after casting RoF) to cast DDay, and when I went to cast CoV, I scooped them up. In game three, I kept a one-lander with a Top, the land being Polluted Delta. I searched up a basic Swamp, found a second land (the Plains) the next turn, but was then unable to find a blue source for the rest of the game. Froggy laid down a swift clock of discard and Tarmogoyfs in his early turns. He hardcast a Leyline of Sanctity on turn four, and it was all she wrote. I could have fetched up a Sea with that initial land, but since I'd likely lose to a Wasteland, I went with the Swamp. I asked him afterward if he had a Wasteland in his opener, and he said, "Yes", which made me feel a bit better about the decision.

Round three was against Dana, playing Elves! I Chantwalked him on his turn three of game one (I Probed him earlier and saw that he could cast a Regal Force with additional mana floating on his third turn), and then won on the next turn with a SDT in play + cantrip + U floating pile. Game two was won in similar fashion, punctuated by a turn one Thoughtseize for his Glimpse. I only had a Probe when I went off as the catalyst draw effect, but had ample mana, so I was able to make a SDT, IU, LED, LED, ToA pile (as opposed to IU being the top card).

Round four was against Blake, playing a homebrew iteration of a BG attrition deck. I won the roll, cast a Top and LED, and passed. He sniped my IT with a Cabal Therapy on his first turn. After he cast a turn three Deed (immediately popping it for zero to get my LED), it was pretty much draw-go for a few turns. He Living Wished at one point for a Gaddock Teeg, and cast it. He started beating me down with Teeg and a Qasali Pridemage as I was digging for mana and/or Chain of Vapor. He strips my hand completely (I'm protecting a Doomsday I'd Brainstormed on top of my library earlier with Top) with Eternal Witness, Cabal Therapy, and Recurring Nightmare shenanigans (binning QP in the process). Eventually, with two Tops in play, a low life total, an empty hand, and five lands out (the Doomsday still in the top three), with him having the Rec. Nightmare in hand, I kick a Chant to buy a turn. Lo and behold, I find the Chain of Vapor third from the top after spinning Top in my main phase on the next turn. I pass, things still not looking good (he can Rec QP back and lock down my Tops, ensuring victory). He attacks me for four with Witness and Teeg, casts Rec, and punts by passing the turn. I double check the text on Rec and commence with my turn. With Plains and every dual in the deck out, I draw DDay, Top for Chain, cast DDay with three of the black-producing lands, and win with a SDT in play + 1U floating CoV pile. Great maindeck inclusion. In game two, I Probe him on turn one (having two other cantrips in hand, a Brainstorm and another Probe) and see lands, a GSZ, a Hymn, and other somewhat insignificant cards. I have a turn one pass the turn pile available for use, but obviously decide against it. I play a land and pass, leaving up Brainstorm. He Hymns, I BS in response to protect the Dark Rit and DDay in hand, finding more cantips. I then cantrip into more cantrips during my turn. He casts GSZ for Teeg on his turn three. With DR, DDay, Probe, and Ponder in hand at at the beginning of my subsequent post-Teeg main phase, I cast Ponder and find an LED. I draw it, Ritual into DDay, and win with an on-the-fly pile: IU, LED, Probe, Slaughter Pact, ToA.

So, I had a lot of fun, netted $6 (everyone X-1 or better at the end of the night splits the pot), and only punted once. All of my opponents were store regulars, very nice people, and all good Magic players to boot. I don't think my play was 100% solid in match four, but it ended up being alright, so, yeah. Slaughter Pact was awesome in nearly every match. I mulliganed somewhat often throughout the tournament, not enough to be crippling, but definitely more than average. I wore my Miami Dolphins Zubaz, so I was super comfortable all night. Before I forget, I'd like to thank my friend Danny for stopping by and blasting a Nickelback playlist from his laptop for everyone in the store to listen to during round two. Hearing Chad Kroeger's soothing voice really helped to relax my nerves.

Also, this video should definitely be added to the front page:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGbIpCJnmc0

Lejay

02-03-2012, 08:15 AM

My preferred fetchland configuration for this list would be something like 4 Strand, 3 Flats, 2 Delta (7 can fetch basic Plains, 6 can fetch Island, 5 can fetch Swamp), although I'm not sure if ranking Island over Swamp is correct.

Marsh flats is definitely the last fetchland to play as the island is the number one basic. It helps you function with cantrips. Hierarchy is :
Island
Plain
Swamp

In game three, I kept a one-lander with a Top, the land being Polluted Delta. I searched up a basic Swamp, found a second land (the Plains) the next turn, but was then unable to find a blue source for the rest of the game.
Definitely fetch island. You are fine if you find another fetch whatever was your choice, but if you don't find one you absolutely need blue mana to let your cantrips bring you other lands.

About the helm shot tech, I wouldn't say it has no problems functioning against maverick. If they play canonist you can't go dark rit -> DD which limits you options, and passing the turn is dangerous against creature decks.

Dark Ritual

02-03-2012, 12:57 PM

Yeah island is the number one basic in this deck; for basic swamp to be right, you would have to already have all the combo pieces in hand i.e. the nuts hand of dark rit, top/probe, DDay, LED. If you don't have the kill the land to get is island since it sets you up to win with your cantrips.

On your manabase: I would play 4x delta and 4x strand before running any marsh flats since marsh flats can't grab island.

KevinTrudeau

02-10-2012, 12:12 AM

Marsh flats is definitely the last fetchland to play as the island is the number one basic. It helps you function with cantrips. Hierarchy is :
Island
Plain
Swamp

Definitely fetch island. You are fine if you find another fetch whatever was your choice, but if you don't find one you absolutely need blue mana to let your cantrips bring you other lands.

About the helm shot tech, I wouldn't say it has no problems functioning against maverick. If they play canonist you can't go dark rit -> DD which limits you options, and passing the turn is dangerous against creature decks.

Yeah island is the number one basic in this deck; for basic swamp to be right, you would have to already have all the combo pieces in hand i.e. the nuts hand of dark rit, top/probe, DDay, LED. If you don't have the kill the land to get is island since it sets you up to win with your cantrips.

On your manabase: I would play 4x delta and 4x strand before running any marsh flats since marsh flats can't grab island.

Thank you both for correcting some of my misconceptions concerning the deck.

Since I was able to acquire both a Scrubland and a Badlands via trade, I was able to play a Burning Wish variant tonight. The maindeck was the one I posted earlier in this thread with the following changes: -1 Flooded Strand (I only own two, but intend to play a full set once I get two more), -1 Plateau, -1 Rain of Filth, -1 Tendrils of Agony, -1 Chain of Vapor for +3 Lotus Petal, +1 Polluted Delta, +1 Ponder. Oddly enough, I ended up playing against three artifact-based decks out of a possible three over four rounds in the ~20 man tourney, and saw an opposing turn one Chalice of the Void in five straight games at one point (I went 2-3 in those games, 2-2 overall in matches). I played Meltdown over Pulverize and was happy with the selection given the situations I faced, though I'm still not entirely sure which one is better. I really like the potential of winning with a ~six mana cantrip-in-hand pile the same turn you wipe the board of all artifacts for free, but I don't like that it's actually impossible to cast Pulverize without paying mana if a mindful opponent has a Wasteland and you're only running two Mountains (barring having cast Burning Wish via Lotus Petal mana and having one of the Mountains in hand with an uncracked fetch that can find the other in play).

Lejay

02-10-2012, 02:54 AM

I think I would play meltdown too in UBwr right now if I had a wish target for artifacts, especially since I prefer to run only 1 volc and 1 badlands as red mana sources. When I did play pulverize it was in 5 basics UBr with a basic mountain.

However I don't run any at the moment as I'm very satisfied with 2 serenity. They have been both devastating against artifacts and saving my ass several times against enchantments (maverick essentially but also enchantress and blood moons).
I'm also 75% percent positive I only want 3 burning wishes in the deck (still testing), so meltdown is even less attractive.

KevinTrudeau

02-18-2012, 09:20 PM

Went a disappointing 2-3 at a larger event today at my local store after starting out 2-0. Highlights of the day were making a pile that worked with hardcasting a preliminary in-hand Tendrils as the fourth spell against a 12post opponent at 30 due to multiple Glimmerpost and making a double Doomsday pile for exactsies against a Lands opponent at 33 due to Zuran Orb (hand was DDay, Rit, Rit, LED, and Probe with a bunch of lands in play after Chantwalking for three straight turns; first pile was SDT, IU, LED, DDay, BW with no nonland permanents in play; second pile was IU, LED, Probe, LED, BW with SDT in play and UUU floating). After seeing three more turn one Chalices today and not being able to consistently have the necessary mana for Meltdown one too many times, I will definitely be trying out either two Serenity, Rebuild, or Hurkyl's Recall in the sideboard in the near future.

GoldenCid

04-22-2012, 04:42 PM

leegoo

04-22-2012, 04:51 PM

Hi everybody! i looked up for some explanations in the primer but it was just a counple of lists of the deck.

Could anybody answer this questions?

-I know what the deck wants to do but i dont get how. I smply cant understand why 4 dark rituals are enoguht to go off (i know that led also helps).

You only need BBB to cast doomsday... past that, you stack the mana you need in your 5 card pile. Some versions play a bit more accel, but 4 ritual 4 LED (and a rain of filth) has been great for most of us.

-Why should i play this deck over ANT / TES?

You have a lot more versatility than the other storm decks. You also are not dependent on your life total (well, not as much, you still need 2 life to cast DD) albeit you are a bit slower generally. It depends on how you want to play.

-How do you abuse of Laboratory Maniac?

Lab Maniac is terrible in Legacy Doomsday. At his very best he is a crutch if you don't want to learn the deck in and out.

I hope somebody could explain me?

THx!!

Find a list (The german list or Lejay's Last Level DD are both good starting places depending on how you want to build the deck.) and test it A LOT. Thousands of goldfishes in I still miss things all the time. This deck requires you to be dedicated to it to be rewarding.

Chikenbok

04-22-2012, 05:33 PM

Hi everybody! i looked up for some explanations in the primer but it was just a counple of lists of the deck.

Could anybody answer this questions?

-I know what the deck wants to do but i dont get how. I smply cant understand why 4 dark rituals are enoguht to go off (i know that led also helps).

-Why should i play this deck over ANT / TES?

-How do you abuse of Laboratory Maniac?

I hope somebody could explain me?

THx!!

You might also wanna go over and register on the stormboards for access to some (still) ongoing discussion about the deck. You should spend some time and read over the 80-some odd pages over there about how the deck has developed, what people's lists look like and tournament reports can show you just how easily you can win off of a dark ritual.

Also, Listen to Leegoo - goldish, a lot more times than you think necessary. The deck will punish you harder than any other deck you can play but if you put in the practice, you'll see what a 3cmc mass tutor can really do.

GoldenCid

04-22-2012, 08:03 PM

Ok guys! Any additional tip?

Lejay

04-22-2012, 08:09 PM

Don't playtest against people you are going to face on tournaments. The deck gets a lot of wins because people don't know how to play against it.

ThomasDowd

04-23-2012, 01:40 PM

Don't playtest against people you are going to face on tournaments. The deck gets a lot of wins because people don't know how to play against it.

That seems counter intuitive, since if you want to get better you should play against some of the better players you know, and then if you lose to their knowledge of how your deck works why even play the deck at all? since you will ultimately have to play them to win the tournament.

If i am choosing a combo deck to play i want to be able to beat people even if they know what is going on. I don't just want free wins because my opponents are confused or don't know how to interact. otherwise i'd play dredge.

honestly i feel like the deck is very good but yes you sometimes will lose to a pridemage if your opponent understands what is going on.

in general you lose to alot of corner cases but you can probably get your way out of it since you are tutoring 5 cards and stacking them.

Climax

04-23-2012, 03:55 PM

honestly i feel like the deck is very good but yes you sometimes will lose to a pridemage if your opponent understands what is going on.

NO! This is the reason why DD is so damn good. You can react to all the cards and play around each and everything.

The most important part for me to play Doomsday is, that you alwayes know if you can Combo out or not. Midcombo there is no random factor like with ANT for example.
And you are so stupidly flexible if you know what you do.

And the last but not least point: The Deck rewards learning it, like no other deck.

And LabManiac is really bad and not needed if you know what you are doing.

ThomasDowd

04-23-2012, 05:19 PM

NO! This is the reason why DD is so damn good. You can react to all the cards and play around each and everything.

The most important part for me to play Doomsday is, that you alwayes know if you can Combo out or not. Midcombo there is no random factor like with ANT for example.
And you are so stupidly flexible if you know what you do.

And the last but not least point: The Deck rewards learning it, like no other deck.

And LabManiac is really bad and not needed if you know what you are doing.

I am well aware you can build piles to beat anything, and I have, but when one of the biggest supporters of the deck says not to playtest against people you expect to play, that doesn't make me feel very good about the deck.

emidln

04-23-2012, 07:19 PM

I am well aware you can build piles to beat anything, and I have, but when one of the biggest supporters of the deck says not to playtest against people you expect to play, that doesn't make me feel very good about the deck.

When I test, I test against people who know my list cold. It doesn't really matter much. You might argue that knowing I don't play Lab Maniac or Emrakul let you let Doomsday resolve, but you can ask all of my opponents who ate a stacked Silence how well that works out.

That said, Doomsday lists vary significantly amongst themselves, let alone other storm decks. Most opponents mis-sideboard pretty badly against me and value all of the wrong cards. Getting free wins because my opponent misjudges a cards worth and doesn't sideboard against it help in long tournaments.

Namida

04-23-2012, 10:13 PM

I am well aware you can build piles to beat anything, and I have, but when one of the biggest supporters of the deck says not to playtest against people you expect to play, that doesn't make me feel very good about the deck.

Why does that make you feel bad about the deck? Magic isn't just about the 75 cards in your deck--it's also about how you use information while at the same time limiting information leakage to your opponents. Either way, the concept that you can build piles to beat anything and the concept that you can get free wins against opponents because no one knows how to play against the deck are two separate issues. Lejay isn't saying that the only way you can win with this deck is to just blindside your opponents or anything, but being able to blindside your opponents is a very distinct advantage that you are afforded by playing this deck that is filled with cards that are non-traditional for a Storm deck. This deck is powerful enough that you can win even if your opponent knows your whole 75, and I am confident that I could beat an opponent even if they knew exactly what was going on with my deck, but in the way that you *don't* enjoy free wins, I assume that many of us here do--especially given that it helps ease the mental strain of the whole "Casting Doomsday over and over again in a 7+ Round Tournament" thing. I enjoy knowing that sometimes I will win games because my opponent sees "Land, Sensei's Divining Top" and assumes I'm playing some control deck instead of preparing for the Tendrils they will be dying to next turn. I enjoy watching my Maverick opponent cast GSZ for Gaddock Teeg with a smug look on their face, and I enjoy watching the look of horror when they realize that I can just find an answer with Doomsday. Much in the way you'd play Dredge if you wanted free wins, I'd play TES or Thresh or something if I wanted my opponent to know 65/75 of my deck and exactly how to play against me.

Even if you dislike the notion, you can still plan ahead in games under the assumption that your opponent knows exactly what you can do--I hardly think that any of us is advocating that you play right into your opponent's potential ignorance instead of learning how to play around what they can do to you. For instance, in your example...Why does a Pridemage beat you, and why can't you play around it? Are you afraid that your opponent is going to destroy your Top in response to Doomsday? Look for a Probe or another cantrip and use it instead of the Top. Do you fear that your opponent will destroy your first Lion's Eye Diamond with the second one on the stack? Get one more mana for your combo turn and put a Dark Ritual in place of one of the LED. And I'm not even getting into the way that you can just simply remove the Pridemage before you go off. You can do all of this whether or not you believe that your opponent is aware that these options are available to them. My belief here is that the only thing your opponent understanding your deck does in this situation is take away a few options from the glut of options you already have. All it really does is take away the "Hail-Mary combo and hope they make a mistake" plan, and it allows your opponent to know not to tap out of mana to activate Pridemage.

Lejay

04-23-2012, 10:35 PM

I shouldn't have said a lot, althought people do a lot of mistakes. The idea is that if you're good you'll play around difficult situations 90% of the time. But sometimes things gone wrong, you lack ressources, and in these 10% your really want the opponent to make a mistake. That makes the difference between being 9th and winning a tournament.
In short the deck is on an equal foot with the other best decks of the format, and people not knowing how to play against it is what makes it N°1 in my mind.

EDIT : also the best way to progress with the deck except having a mentor is probably to playtest against yourself playing the other deck.

Troll Slayer

05-02-2012, 04:44 PM

I see everyone denigrating Laboratory Maniac in these posts, but it seems to me like a fine one-of you can side in that side steps Leyline of Sanctity, Solitary Confinement and Gaddock Teeg without Jumping through any hoops. You can make a simple DD pile of IU, Top, Probe, LED, Laboratory Maniac and circumvent a lot of hate. Why is this "bad" or a "crutch"?

emidln

05-02-2012, 04:50 PM

Troll Slayer

05-03-2012, 07:35 PM

Yes but I don't want Maniac MD. I want it after an opponent has sided out their spot removal. Also it costs one less mana than a chain of vapor pile which often means I go of one turn earlier and it can beat Mom + Hatebear or Solitary/Leyline + Sterling Grove.

I am also curious what matches the Emrakul pile is for. Obviously it's only sided in against decks w/o wasteland, Karakas etc. But I am unclear on when it is better than, for instance, Laboratory Maniac. I know you can T1 Ritual + Doomsday, pass and play LED and Probe/Top to resolve Emrakul T2 but this seems unlikely and it is the only instance I have run into where the Shelldock Isle plans seems better than any other route to victory.

leegoo

05-03-2012, 08:00 PM

Yes but I don't want Maniac MD. I want it after an opponent has sided out their spot removal.

This does not happen. Rug plays bolt... which is not something they want to board out. Maverick and Stoneblade play StP, which is a perfectly reasonable way around tendrils for 20. I suppose BUG might side out their removal.

Also it costs one less mana than a chain of vapor pile which often means I go of one turn earlier and it can beat Mom + Hatebear or Solitary/Leyline + Sterling Grove.

So, against Solitary/Leyline (that is, enchantress) you'd rather have lab maniac than serenity?

Mom + Hatebear is a problem that has been effectively neutered in Lejay's last couple of installments. Between DoN, Massacre, and Virtue's ruin (plus Karakas, Pact and bounce) I think you can handle mom+bear.

I am also curious what matches the Emrakul pile is for. Obviously it's only sided in against decks w/o wasteland, Karakas etc. But I am unclear on when it is better than, for instance, Laboratory Maniac. I know you can T1 Ritual + Doomsday, pass and play LED and Probe/Top to resolve Emrakul T2 but this seems unlikely and it is the only instance I have run into where the Shelldock Isle plans seems better than any other route to victory.

This is debated space in the SB currently. It is valuable vs. Reanimator, Tide, other Storm decks, dredge, Nic Fit, and SOME Blade decks (depending on whether they run wasteland or not) primarily.

Even if you cut both however, there are still a couple choices you (I) would rather run over him. Like Emidln said, it's down the list on cards we "want" to have access to. Yes, it CAN open up some outs,(as well as open up some outs for your opponent) but ask yourself, is it really all that much better than something like "shared fate" that we've had access to for years that doesn't make the cut?

Lejay has some more talk about it over on the storm boards if you are interested.

Troll Slayer

05-03-2012, 08:32 PM

Thank you, Leegoo.
I see your point on most of what you are saying, but I am still unconvinced. It doesn't beat hate by BW for an answer, it is a win condition in-and-of itself that circumvents the hate, which is what seems good to me. And it circumvents several types of hate for 1 Sb slot. I appreciate what you are saying, particularly about opponents not necessarily siding out removal, but I think I'll have to lose to a Swords on Maniac before I am convinced.

P.S. I'll go check out storm boards too to see the arguements over Emrakul.

leegoo

05-03-2012, 08:45 PM

Try it out for yourself for sure, but when you test it, be honest with your results as to whether you could have only won with it or if it was just "turn off brain - kill with maniac" mode.

Also if you are set on it then you might want to try running Chromatic Sphere to compliment it. It's more expensive but gives you a way to kill with the maniac that can't be responded to.

Troll Slayer

05-09-2012, 04:08 PM

So I played in a local tournament and went a predictable 1-2 drop. It was my first time playing the deck in a live tournament and I definitely punted a match away. I played the UBrw version. 1 Rain of Filth was awesome. Wasteland was a big problem.

Round 1 I played against an odd deck that was basically Bugstill with a Gamekeeper/Emrakul combo instead of Standstill.

Game one I naturally drew dual lands and he naturally drew triple wasteland and Life from the Loam. This game was never close.
Game two I won when he tapped out for his combo, which seemed pretty terrible. He Innocent blooded his gamekeeper which cascaded into another gamekeeper, not that it mattered. In the process he revealed 4 Force of Wills letting me know the coast was clear. Tendrils for 20.
Game three I punted. On turn three he tapped out for pernicious deed and I went for it without thinking it through that he could deed in response to the second LED after doomsday. Here a maindeck tendrils would have allowed me to put Lotus Petal Rain of Filth in my pile and win without BW but I didn't run one today. :rolleyes: I should just have been more patient in retrospect(Obviously). I had previously fetched a Volcanic to BW for doomsday and naturally drew a scrubland so I was afraid of being wastelanded out of the game. Shame on me.

Round 2 vs UW CounterTop
In game one he won the die roll and played Seat of the Synod and Top on turn 1. Fortunatey my hand was Badlands, Tundra, Brainstorm, Petal, Led, Ritual, Burning Wish. I drew a fetchland for my turn and made 10 Goblins with ETW. That was good enough. (He had CB in hand but no FOW.)

Game two I couldn't go off on turn one and he went Top t1, CB t2. I should have sided in the emrakul package, but my inexperience showed here and I was dead in the water.

Game three we both mulled to six and I kept a slightly sketchy hand with the singleton thoughtseize I boarded in, plus brainstorm, burning wish, Lotus Petal, Emrakul and a fetchland. I led on TS revealing Top, Enlightened Tutor, REB and lands. I took the Tutor and he played top on his turn. T2 between my draw step and Brainstorm I found LED plus Ritual plus land and stormed out twelve Goblins. Nothing like a perfect Brainstorm to mise a win.

Round three I played against Burn and won the die roll. This round was tough. I lost both games and both games I was able to doomsday and tendrils for 18 on the critical turn but didn't have the resources to add any more to my storm count. I don't think that the Emrakul package would have helped here either, for one thing I wouldn't have been able to reslove DD, Brainstorm, and Cloud of Faeries on the same turn with my constricted mana and even if I had, he could have untapped, played mountain and put three to the dome anyway.
Since I was mindful of Lab Maniac due to discussions on this page I know I could have won both g1 and g2 if I had sided it in. Oops. I also could have won g3 of match 1 with it. I don't remember exactly what my lands were in the burn match but I think I also probably could have won with helm of awakening combo. I am still pretty uncertain about sideboarding options and it was telling in my 1-2 record.

All in all it was a rough day, but about what I expected for my first outing. I made a lot of mistakes and I think the deck has a definite weakness to wasteland but I am intrigued by how complex a machine the Doomsday engine is.

bennotsi

05-10-2012, 04:31 AM

Hi Troll Slayer, Thanks for your report.

I'm afraid we will never get rid of Laboratory Maniac discussions, but believe me its a bad card. Please stop and think for a moment about what you are actually saying: Do you actually prefer a win condition that loses to a single Burn spell against a Burn deck?

Piles that use Lab Man also use one or sometimes even two Gitaxian Probe post-Doomsday. That's quite rough on your life total as well against Burn.

One of the more mana-efficient Lab Man piles that I know of costs BBB+1 and requires an SDT in play and a Gitaxian Probe (GP) in hand:
LED, IU, LED, GP, LabManiac BBB+1
Now you could have just build the pile:
LED, IU, LED, LED, BW(ToA) BBB
which requires only BBB, but since you have BBB+1 you can generate one extra storm: Instead of using GP to draw LED, you use SDT to draw LED, use GP to draw SDT, replay SDT for 1, play LED, sac it for UUU, tap SDT to draw IU, etc.

Please take this as constructive feedback, I'm not trying to offend, but I do think that you need some more practice with the deck.

Making extra storm really isn't that difficult, and if you have SDT in play it's easy:

If you have one extra mana to spare to you can, in piles where you use SDT + a cantrip: decide to use SDT to draw first, use the cantrip to draw SDT and then replay SDT for one extra storm.

If you have two extra mana (and an SDT) you can build IU, LED, LED, BW, BW and use Time Spiral to manufacture some extra storm. (You also need some lands and one arbitrary card in your hand or graveyard post-doomsday to not mill yourself on TS)

If you have three extra mana (and an SDT) you can go for a double doomsday pile. I know, paying half your life twice isn't great against Burn either, so for the Time Spiral pile in that case.

You mentioned that you wished you had included Helm of Awakening + Grapeshot, but I'm pretty sure that if you would have the resources to pull that off, you also would have been able to manufacture 10 or more storm without Helm/Grapeshot.

Pulp_Fiction

05-10-2012, 02:24 PM

Been a while since I posted. I really don't care 2 much about Magic anymore, but I still play every wednesday, usually we all drop early and go drink beer but tonight they decided to go to a shitty bar and I was 2-1 ... so I decided to stay and win :) There were between 28-32 people there and here is the list I ran followed by a report since I feel these matchups are relevant:

4 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
2 Island
2 Swamp
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island

4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Doomsday
1 Tendrils of Agony
3 Ponder
1 Meditate
4 Thoughtseize
3 Duress
2 Gitaxian Probe
1 IGG
1 Lab Man
3 Infernal Tutor

SB
1 Duress
1 Echoing Truth
3 Wipe Away
2 Rebuild
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Chain of Vapor
3 Krosan Grip
3 Carpet of Flowers

Round 1 - Bant Tempo (thor)

g1 - The deck laughs at me and I draw a shit ton of lands, around turn 7 before a lethal swing from KoR I play a Meditate and get there with Top. I didn't even have much storm but he was at 16 and I ripped a Tendrils turn 3 off the top and was able to get there with minimal rituals and using his own Spell Pierce against him :)

g2 - He mulls to 5 and is never really in the game. A Duress followed by a Meditate stack takes this one.

Round 2 - U/W Stoneblade

g1 - Turn 1 Duress shows me the path is clear and a turn 2 Meditate stack easily gets there.

g2 - I draw an obscene amount of land and he gets there with dorks.

g3 - I fight through double Force, triple Spell Pierce, Divert, Mana Leak, and some number of Snapcasters. Carpet of the Flowers EASILY outshines his deck and allows me to play around all his bullshit taxing effects and makes my 8 discard spells soooooo good here. Another Meditate stack except this time I put a Slaughter Pact in it to kill his Stoneforge before the lethal Tendrils because the guy is acting like a cock.

3 - U/W Hawkstill

g1 - He just counters everything relevant and I can't really get enough discard to break through.

g2 - I get double Carpet and just sit back filtering with Top and finally kill him with an absurd amount of storm with a Meditate stack.

g3 - He gets double Meddling Mage down very early and I am unable to recover ... especially since I had 1/2 the lands in my deck in play ... relevant draws FTL!

Round 4 - U/W Hawkstill

g1 - He counters relevant spells and my mulligan didn't help things. I stall on 2 lands again and go for a Lab Man stack hoping he doesn't topdeck a counter ... he does.

g2 - This was the weirdest game I have played yet, it was a very hard fought battle but I got there through 2x FoW, 2x Spell Pierce, 1x Counterspell, Clique, and a Snapcaster AND he had a Surgical Extraction in his hand when I stormed out. Using his own counters against him and having 2 Tops in play I built this pile: LED, Tendrils, LED, DD, DD. I was planning on him extracting my DD to fuck the pile up and he did right as I attempted to cantrip ... made life a lot easier there.

g3 - I eventually run him out of counters around turn 9. I Duress him and see 2x Hawk, FoW, and Counterspell ... YES! Another Meditate stack seams the deal.

Round 5 - ID

Round 6 - U/W Stoneblade

g1 - I keep a slow hand and see he has the game locked up with a Probe, however, if he doesn't Clique me after my drawstep I win ... he doesn't. He doesn't even Clique while I am running out my accel spells into DD. I build: Meditate, Petal, Rit, Rit, Tendrils with a Top in play and its over. he finally Cliques me in response to Lotus Petal but thats irrelevant. I just draw Tendrils, DRit out a Top, activate it and kill him.

g2 - I keep a VERY slow hand but it has answers to EVERYTHING. He plays a Mishra's Factory turn 1 and no land on turn 2. It turns out he kept a hand of 2x FoW, 1x Spell Pierce, 2x Snapcaster, Spell Snare, and Factory ... he never draws a second land. Pretty sick. 3 Duress effects later I have the game sealed up on turn 6-8 with another Meditate stack.

Doomsday is so ridiculously good right now. The last 3 tournaments I played I have gone 2-0 drop, 2-1 drop, and 5-1 win. Its just so powerful. And Lab Man is a meta choice, there is random Enchantress, Stax, and Stompy decks that show up and its fun just having an auto win against them (which I have done so many times). I actually won through Chalice @ 1 and 0 AND a Trinisphere in play by building this pile: Land, Land, Land, Petal, Petal ... I had Meditate and lab Man in hand and just cast DD and passed, then Lab Man, then Meditate and won. Its so good. Oftentimes it get boarded up but ... I still like it. I am not advocating that people should run it at all, but it works for me.

Carpet of Flowers is just stupid at this point. One game it was adding like 7 a turn ... just insane. The only thing I am not sure of is the 3rd KGrip. I really only need 2 since Wipe Away is usually better but, none the less, splitting hairs at that point. The board was rock solid, the only cards I didn't board in were my standard hatebear cards since I didn't play against Zoo or anything but I was ready :) I am very happy with this list, I have been playing the same thing for about a month and a half now and the list is just a complete monster.

Troll Slayer

05-10-2012, 07:32 PM

Hi Bennotsi,

That is helpful, thank you.

Piceli89

05-20-2012, 05:02 AM

Doomsday w/ Burning Wish has just won the 723 players-BoM of this year.

Lejay

05-20-2012, 10:17 AM

No. Pokpok (Tristan Polzl) has lost in the quarter finals, and I (Jean-Mary Accart) lost in top 16.
There was a top4 split.

Sloshthedark

05-21-2012, 02:58 PM

No. Pokpok (Tristan Polzl) has lost in the quarter finals, and I (Jean-Mary Accart) lost in top 16.
There was a top4 split.

so that was you I was sitting beside round 1, congratulations on the finish! it's great seeing 2 DDs placing high in such a big tournament

Tombstalker

06-11-2012, 12:17 PM

joemauer

06-11-2012, 12:33 PM

Greetings storm pilots. I have always been intrigued with storm combo but until now I have been apprehensive about trying to pilot a storm combo deck. Now I am considering building a deck, but which one?
Doomsday seems the coolest to me since its a mass tutor, yet ANT is the most popular archtype? I have been reading up on 4 storm variations searching for direction (DDFT, ANT, TES, SI) and I still have some unanswered questions maybe you guys could help with.

-TES and SI look to be the fastest but also least stable variants which is not desirable to me. So out of DDFT and ANT is one significantly more stable than the other? Is one significantly faster? What is the fundamental turn of each deck?

-Doomsday appears far more reliable and flexible than adN, so why is ANT more popular? And why dont they play DD main? Am I missing something or is ANT simply easier to pilot? (this last doesnt seem right).

-While I am leaning towards discard over chant effects is there any reason why I couldnt mix the two? Which is more effective?

I guess I would really like to play all of these cards if possible: tendrils, doomsday, ill gotten gains, ad nauseam, burning wish, infernal tutor, LED, cabal therapy, rituals.

ANT is the most popular storm deck because it is the easiest to play. That simple.

TES and Doomsday are the best of the storm decks. TES is the faster deck(I wouldn't call it unstable though) of the two, but Doomsday plays more lands and is a little more flexible in how it can win. They each have their pros and cons, but I believe the "better" deck is probably just meta game dependent.

Chant effects are important in these match ups because they sometimes use Time Spiral, Diminishing Returns, or IGGy loops to win with which all refill an opponents hand with counter magic. Chants are also good against conditional counters like spell snares, stifles, and mindbreak traps.

Tombstalker

06-11-2012, 01:10 PM

ANT is the most popular storm deck because it is the easiest to play. That simple.
This is actually what I was hoping to hear.

TES and Doomsday are the best of the storm decks. TES is the faster deck(I wouldn't call it unstable though) of the two, but Doomsday plays more lands and is a little more flexible in how it can win. They each have their pros and cons, but I believe the "better" deck is probably just meta game dependent.
Same with this.

Chant effects are important in these match ups because they sometimes use Time Spiral, Diminishing Returns, or IGGy loops to win with which all refill an opponents hand with counter magic. Chants are also good against conditional counters like spell snares, stifles, and mindbreak traps.
That makes sense, so if the deck I use eschews the use of spiral, DR and IGG then does hand disruption become the better option, mirror match aside? I am trying to weigh the inclusion of IGG (hadnt considered spiral or DR) since ive read mixed results. Basically it sounds like it is really good in the absense of countermagic which sounds like sideboard material.

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

John Cox

06-11-2012, 01:20 PM

Greetings storm pilots. I have always been intrigued with storm combo but until now I have been apprehensive about trying to pilot a storm combo deck. Now I am considering building a deck, but which one?
Doomsday seems the coolest to me since its a mass tutor, yet ANT is the most popular archtype? I have been reading up on 4 storm variations searching for direction (DDFT, ANT, TES, SI) and I still have some unanswered questions maybe you guys could help with.

-TES and SI look to be the fastest but also least stable variants which is not desirable to me. So out of DDFT and ANT is one significantly more stable than the other? Is one significantly faster? What is the fundamental turn of each deck?

-Doomsday appears far more reliable and flexible than adN, so why is ANT more popular? And why dont they play DD main? Am I missing something or is ANT simply easier to pilot? (this last doesnt seem right).

-While I am leaning towards discard over chant effects is there any reason why I couldnt mix the two? Which is more effective?

I guess I would really like to play all of these cards if possible: tendrils, doomsday, ill gotten gains, ad nauseam, burning wish, infernal tutor, LED, cabal therapy, rituals.

The biggest advantage DDFT has is that it's chances of winning get better the later the game goes, -at least compared to ANT, TES and SI. This makes it much less of a glass canon and lets you keep much slower hands with less mulliganing.
ANT is much easier to pilot and I agree with joemauer that that's why people play it, or at least in my opinion, do well with it. It's harder to pick up DDFT and do well with it with no practice.

Depending on the metagame duress affects or chants will be better, cabal therapy isn't that great usually (in my experience). There have also been ANT/DDFT hybrids in the past that you might want to look into. I'm not sure about how they would do in the current meta but they would meet your list of desired cards to play nicely, lists can be found in this thread.

Tombstalker

06-12-2012, 03:22 PM

Namida

06-12-2012, 03:39 PM

When you go off with Doomsday, you're generally going to use LED to make your red mana, so adding a maindeck Tendrils doesn't make the color requirement easier and generally will only be adding a card that is a weak draw. Consider the deck to be a WUB deck that has a red splash for the infrequent times you need to cast Burning Wish pre-Doomsday. The deck plays 2 Lotus Petals because they're Godawful when you draw them in multiples if you're not going off immediately. Given that to be the case, the other two petals are better as lands since hitting your land drops is better, since this deck isn't as devoted to speed as other Storm Variants, and this deck also makes use of Time Spiral as your panic button.

JamieW89

06-12-2012, 04:10 PM

Ok im a brand new perspective storm pilot so I sleeved up Tristan Pozzls list from BOM that made top8 http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/view/31371 and all I can say is...holy shit this deck is difficult. Goldfished opening 7s all morning and it feels like the deck is too mana intensive with 4 colors. Obviously this is not the case since he kicked ass with it, but now I see why people opt for ANT instead.

Anyway I like the list on paper but I feel like I need more petals and 1 tendrils main to ease the colored mana requirements. Im not ready to give up yet but would someone mind analyzing this deck just a little for me? I am considering putting the training wheels on it by dropping white for discard but I dont want to make the cardinal mistake of changing a list then wondering why I cant win. Help please, and no I really dont have any desire to just play ANT. I want to play doomsday! Thanks to anyone who can help me :p

A tendrils main seems completely unneeded in this list, it doesn't even ease color reqs for most piles g1 anyways. The main piles are IU/LED/GP/LED/BW with a single cantrip (which requires at least UU and up to UUUU depending on the cantrip you're using and your life total) and LED/IU/LED/LED/BW with top and a second cantrip (costs nothing or U post-Doomsday).
More petals would make EtW better and provide some useful color fixing, but with more practise the 4c manabase should get easier to work with.
Discard over chants is possible since they're better against certain archetypes (Show and Tell and Countertop to name two), but chant effects are still better overall imo.

The best advice I can give is to register on the Storm Boards (http://teamstormboards.proboards.com) and read the UBx Doomsday thread from page 45 or so (Where the discussion about the current UBwr list basicly starts, around the time misstep got banned) or even the entire thread.
Then get familiar with some piles; compose or find a list with piles available to the deck (don't think there is a solid list of them post-probe?) and play through each in your head a few times to see why and how they work.
Next up start goldfishing. You start by assuming there is no opponent, just trying to combo off ASAP (could try to have at least 1 chant protection).
After you feel you know the deck a bit you can goldfish against scenarios (often postboard games) to learn how you play around certain hate.

Tombstalker

06-12-2012, 04:26 PM

Thank you for the assistance guys, your explanations make sense and I appreciate the guidance on learning storm. I will register on stormboards now.

Tombstalker

06-12-2012, 05:47 PM

Ok so I registered and now im waiting to be accepted. In the mean time ive been considering the purpose of each card in the deck since this basic info is surprisingly hard to come by. Regarding this statement below:

When you go off with Doomsday, you're generally going to use LED to make your red mana, so adding a maindeck Tendrils doesn't make the color requirement easier and generally will only be adding a card that is a weak draw. Consider the deck to be a WUB deck that has a red splash for the infrequent times you need to cast Burning Wish pre-Doomsday. The deck plays 2 Lotus Petals because they're Godawful when you draw them in multiples if you're not going off immediately. Given that to be the case, the other two petals are better as lands since hitting your land drops is better, since this deck isn't as devoted to speed as other Storm Variants, and this deck also makes use of Time Spiral as your panic button.
So to get this straight, I want to have DD (+ ritual effect) in hand but I dont usually want to have BW in my hand unless I need an answer to a game ender correct? Otherwise BW is just the end of a DD pile to gain storm and find tendrils or to find DD?
To elaborate finding DD is what ive been trying to do with BW while attempting to combo off t2-3 with protection and its been effing hard trying to get 4 colors during these turns without cracking LED too soon and emptying my hand but I need LED for BW, right? Clear as mud.
These are all my fault and likely the root of my problems with color requirements but Im having trouble finding the simple basic explanations for each cards function. Sounds retarded but even cantrips seem to serve a different primary purpose in this deck then in other decks.

leegoo

06-12-2012, 06:06 PM

Ok so I registered and now im waiting to be accepted. In the mean time ive been considering the purpose of each card in the deck since this basic info is surprisingly hard to come by. Regarding this statement below:

So to get this straight, I want to have DD (+ ritual effect) in hand but I dont usually want to have BW in my hand unless I need an answer to a game ender correct? Otherwise BW is just the end of a DD pile to gain storm and find tendrils or to find DD?
To elaborate finding DD is what ive been trying to do with BW while attempting to combo off t2-3 with protection and its been effing hard trying to get 4 colors during these turns without cracking LED too soon and emptying my hand but I need LED for BW, right? Clear as mud.
These are all my fault and likely the root of my problems with color requirements but Im having trouble finding the simple basic explanations for each cards function. Sounds retarded but even cantrips seem to serve a different primary purpose in this deck then in other decks.

Just keep at it and read a bunch... After 2 years playing some form of DDFT almost exclusively I would still say I'm at best a novice with the deck.

Basically, the *common* pile you'll build is
-top-
IU
LED
Probe
LED
BW
-bottom- (or some variation like this depending on life/mana)

With this you need at least UU to play IU (post Doomsday) and of course a way to draw into the IU (Probe for 2 life / 1 mana or 1 more mana if you have top in play)
You'll end up sacrificing the 2 LED's for RRRBBB (in response to your final draw into burning wish) and then casting tendrils with the remaining 4 mana.

Tombstalker

06-12-2012, 07:29 PM

Thanks for the support, things are getting slightly clearer now and I think I just got a first turn kill!

So a few more questions to help me evaluate the structure of DD piles (at least the easiest and/or possibly most common.)
I have been looking for traits that are common to all/most DD piles because I like to apply concepts and patterns when memorizing things rather than simply memorizing each individual piece. Anyway would you say the following are usually true regarding DD piles in the list I linked above:

Unless a draw card is in hand I must pass the turn before I can win.

All initial DD piles end in BW-> tendrils.

Most DD piles will contain: IU + 2 fast mana sources + draw effect/top in play.

Dont put protection into DD piles (duress/chant effects).

The advantage of IU over meditate is that it allows me to combo off without a 3rd fast mana source even though it requires UU instead of 2U. The downside is I need a second draw spell as opposed to meditate only needs itself.

A first turn kill requires DD or BW + LED in the opener.

Thanks for taking the time brothers. This really is one of the coolest most complex archtypes ive taken the time try and understand. Props to the creators.
Oh and I see why petals suck now which makes me think this is the reason for rain of filth, its the best "5th dark ritual" available, right?

Edit- Is it fair to say the benefit of chant effects are that once resolved you cant be stopped from going off, however the downside is your are forced to cast them when you go off making it more mana intensive, as opposed to hand disruption which is less protective but can be cast the turn before to prevent all but a lucky topdeck. And thats all ill ask for today thanks.

leegoo

06-12-2012, 09:58 PM

A lot of the questions you have are best summed up here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?13968-Free-Article-Crafting-Doomsday-Piles-in-Legacy-Storm-Combo) by Emidln. It's a bit dated, but it should answer a lot and is a must read for any aspiring DD player.

j_rb

06-17-2012, 08:03 PM

Tammit67

06-17-2012, 08:08 PM

Played DDFT in a gpt today and the thing I really like about it is how great doomsday is at getting you out of sticky situations when needed. It a freaking vamp tutor x5. This is one of the reasons I switched over to DDFT from other storm variants 6 months ago.

Just switched to see how I like it. Very awesome engine. I really dislike the chants right now though, I want some proactive disruption with CB/hate bears/show and tells running around. Is this a valid concern or just my inexperience?

j_rb

06-17-2012, 08:16 PM

Just switched to see how I like it. Very awesome engine. I really dislike the chants right now though, I want some proactive disruption with CB/hate bears/show and tells running around. Is this a valid concern or just my inexperience?

It's totally possible to build the deck U/b/r and run Thoughtseize/duress. I like the chants a lot in the maverick MU as I usually just chant walk them to death. I side them out against show and tell, but still like to have silence in that MU. I'll sometimes play a silence duress split also. I actually just play what I fell like playing that day and roll with it. Most protection packages are really just preference and mostly any protection package you can think of will work for this deck. It can also be meta dependent on what protection package you play. I would assume a duress/chant split or thoughtseize/duess split would be better in a CB meta.

Tombstalker

06-17-2012, 08:47 PM

Regarding meditate vs. IU, IU draws 3 thus needing a 2nd draw spell in the pile or SDT in play while meditate draws all 4. So my question is: should including protection in a DD pile be a consideration when deciding which draw card to go with? I have only started learning IU piles not meditate which is why I ask and other than cc this seemed relevant.

salvor

06-17-2012, 09:34 PM

This link (https://docs.google.com/document/edit?id=1onAp8XmBLHTUP71xw1w_z0_LAiTo5EWJR4YQmAMgTkY&hl=en&pli=1) may help you in learning piles.

As I believe IU/Meditate choose is a bit personal (like discard/chant choose)

IU is better bacause

1)Double-cantrip pile exists (LED-IU-LED-LED-BW, there are no analogue in Meditate Piles)
2)Single-hate-pile (IU-LED-CoV-LED-BW) is cheaper

Meditate is better because
1)Double-Hate piles are cheaper
2)Double-doomsday piles are cheaper
3)cms=3, spellsnare-free piles
4)Only single U in cost
5)Can be casted on opponents EoT.

Now generally, IU is usually better, because usually there is only one piece of hate or none, and in both these situations IU is better. Blanking spellsnare is not an option for these lists which don't run Tendrils main (because you must include BW->Tendrils into pile, so you're vulnerable to it).

Though if you play Cabal Rituals (less likely to have UU), have Tendrils and/or Ill-Gotten-Gains main (a lot of Meditate piles use them) then Meditate is worth it.

Maybe I'm not right (I play IU since I don't know Meditate piles).

Just switched to see how I like it. Very awesome engine. I really dislike the chants right now though, I want some proactive disruption with CB/hate bears/show and tells running around. Is this a valid concern or just my inexperience?

Generally protection depends on your meta: chants are better in Rug/Maverick meta and vs fast aggrodecks, discard is better vs counterbalance and Sneak/Reanimator.

Note that Karakas main also improves your S&S/Reanimator matchup and asks you to play chants because of color requirements.

Tammit67

06-17-2012, 09:50 PM

Generally protection depends on your meta: chants are better in Rug/Maverick meta and vs fast aggrodecks, discard is better vs counterbalance and Sneak/Reanimator.

Note that Karakas main also improves your S&S/Reanimator matchup and asks you to play chants because of color requirements.

I netdecked Tristan Polzl's list from the BoM. Having played the deck once, I have loose feel for what I want and what I need to work on. I haven't yet understood how to power through multiple hard counters in the way i feel confident about with AnT or TES.

My meta is sometimes a ton of maverick/RUG, and other days I move 5 miles away and I have to worry about CB with wastes. Gotta find a configuration I like. Thanks for the Feedback!

Tombstalker

06-17-2012, 10:03 PM

Salvor- that's amazing! I'm learning this deck 1 freaking card at a time it seems. Cheers.

Namida

06-17-2012, 10:35 PM

This link (https://docs.google.com/document/edit?id=1onAp8XmBLHTUP71xw1w_z0_LAiTo5EWJR4YQmAMgTkY&hl=en&pli=1) may help you in learning piles.

As I believe IU/Meditate choose is a bit personal (like discard/chant choose)

Now generally, IU is usually better, because usually there is only one piece of hate or none, and in both these situations IU is better. Blanking spellsnare is not an option for these lists which don't run Tendrils main (because you must include BW->Tendrils into pile, so you're vulnerable to it).

Though if you play Cabal Rituals (less likely to have UU), have Tendrils and/or Ill-Gotten-Gains main (a lot of Meditate piles use them) then Meditate is worth it.

Maybe I'm not right (I play IU since I don't know Meditate piles).

The draw for me for Ideas Unbound are the double cantrip piles, and the Chain of Vapor Piles (I didn't learn about Chain of Vapor Piles until late in the game--if you're new to the deck, do yourself a favor and memorize them; they are very good against hate). With the advent of Gitaxian Probe, I would almost contend that Ideas Unbound is more often better because your piles generate more spells cast off of the same mana requirements that would be necessary for Meditate Piles. Making double hate piles also isn't impossible. The biggest thing I don't like about Ideas Unbound is that UUBBB can be a little difficult to pull off. Meditate is good because you can play around Spell Snare as mentioned, and being able to just cast an end of turn Meditate against slow/fair decks is very good as a bait spell--if they counter it, sweet. If they don't counter it, they take a bullshit extra turn and you're up four cards in your next turn. And the single U makes Cabal Ritual a possibility. Ill-Gotten Gains is such a weak draw that I wouldn't consider it a positive of playing Meditate.

I netdecked Tristan Polzl's list from the BoM. Having played the deck once, I have loose feel for what I want and what I need to work on. I haven't yet understood how to power through multiple hard counters in the way i feel confident about with AnT or TES.

My meta is sometimes a ton of maverick/RUG, and other days I move 5 miles away and I have to worry about CB with wastes. Gotta find a configuration I like. Thanks for the Feedback!

Most decks in a lot of the meta are only playing Force of Will as their hard counters. Playing around cards like Daze and Spell Pierce isn't too difficult (Especially with Probes so you don't get surprised by them), and you've got enough cantrips to overwhelm these kinds of opponents with multiple Chants. If your opponent's aren't playing Spell Snare, you can also use Burning Wish to bait out counters--and if your baiting doesn't pan out, you can just get Duress and make them discard.

I really don't have much experience with RUG, but my games with Maverick have usually just been my opponent being upset about how well equipped the deck is to deal with their disruption. Players seem to think this deck plays out like TES or ANT, and in making that assumption they just fuck themselves. For instance, Teeg is a joke when you're playing a Maindeck Chain and a Karakas to put in your Doomsday piles, and Burning Wish for mass-removal has often been game-ending because opponents overextend into it just assuming that a Storm deck wouldn't have access to a Wrath.

Salvor- that's amazing! I'm learning this deck 1 freaking card at a time it seems. Cheers.

I learn something new about this deck basically every time I play it--the interactions that the deck presents are very complex. From Double Doomsday Piles to Time Spiral Piles, to Pass-the-turn Piles, there are a lot of options present to you all the time, if only you are aware that they exist. To me, that is the most exciting/demoralizing part of this deck; learning that you lost way too many games you had in the bag if only you had known that you could win is no fun, but nothing is greater than the look on your opponent's face when they realize that you're just comboing all over them despite thoughts that they had you completely stonewalled by gaining ten life or having Teeg in play or something.

The Spanish Tunnel King

08-08-2012, 06:37 PM

Hey guys. I'm continuing my 'sleeve up doomsday every so often' plan that i've been doing on and off for the last couple of years (I managed to double doomsday a 'live' opponent for the first time the other day, which i'm sure levels me up....). Just a quick few questions. Not really pile related stuff but more sideboarding... Im playing a slightly dated looking variant on the old German list (Im a little addicted to making meditates and cabal rituals :D), but dropping the green, and running 7xchants main. What type of board would the lovely people on here recommend? With no wishboard, it almost feels like I have too much space... currently im running:

2xEchoing truth

3xDevestation tide (an experiment..., not liking them so much so far)

3xInquisition of koszilek (all the above would be my 'anti permanent' squad, boarding in for the chants where they are bad...). I would also board just these in vs.control.

1xShelldock isle
1XEmmy (Stupid counterbalance made me pick this deck up again :)).

1xLab manic (again, testing... actually quite like it)

4xLeyline of the void

I was running 4xdread of night, as I love crushing maverick, but it seems they are not so necessary (until they realise that mindcensor is in fact, amazing... :)). I was also running 1xtrop, 3xcarpet of flowers in the leyline slot vs RUG etc etc. But it seems they died out and I also realised that my list would be pretty cold to dredge/reanimator stratergies. Do people find they can comfortably race these decks? It seems a pretty tough gig to me.... Also burn... Its embarrassing to lose to burn. Is it that im just 1/2 a turn off the pace of where I need to be at? If so, how to shore up in the meantime while I get more to grips with the deck again?

It seems like the deck is well placed in a meta of mid-range and miracle-y control...

Well, lots of lovely love to you all

The Spanish Tunnel King

PS oh yeah, against miracles I enjoy going for the shelldock isle plan. but a karakas / terminus could be bad news. I usually build the pile with chant effects for resp. to the miracle trigger, but sometimes its not possible (due to CB being up, or known counters in hand). Any more... sneaky piles for this kind of thing vs miracles?

Silent Requiem

08-12-2012, 09:50 AM

entreri_fans

08-12-2012, 10:59 AM

Hi, Silent Requiem!

I myself run UBr DDFT.(Burning Wish + Meditate + Discard + Tendrils main deck, I know very few run this built -_-!)Because I do not like 4 color mana base and do not own any Tundra or Scrubland, I make this built.In my meta, RUG is still hard to deal with (with their 4 Spellsnares), so I choose Meditate over Idea's Unbound (So that I only need to deal with Daze/Force/Stifle).Burning Wish is always for Doomsday in my SB.I seldomly use Burning Wish in my Pile unless I'm sure they have no Spellsnare or I really need that "+1 storm count".

In my opinion, if you prefer Idea's Unbound, you really need Orim's Chant/Silence to protect IU(or at least some Xantid Swarm)because you still have a high possibility to run into spellsnare(RUG Delver / Blade Control).

-->_<--

So if you really like IU but still hate 4 color mana base, what about building UBW DDFT(Infernal Tutor + IU + IGG+ Chant + Tendrils Maindeck)??

Chant Walk is great against something like Maverick. Also, with the protection of chant effect, you can have random kill via IGG. You do not always need to resolve Doomsday with this build.

flrn

08-12-2012, 03:11 PM

I've also come back to Doomsday after playing PSI for a while. I've been reading over the Meditate v IU arguments with interest, although it seems like personal preference plays a big role. I think IU is strictly better for the double cantrip piles, but I also find the Meditate piles more intuitive (perhaps from playing so much Solidarity :laugh: ). I'm playing both builds right now, trying to make up my mind.

Perhaps a bigger issue for me is whether or not to splash white. I hate going to four colours, but I'm not blind to the advantages either. Am I right in thinking that IU really needs to play chant effects over discard (because it can't dodge spell snare)?

When Mental Misstep was legal in Legacy, I used to play a straight UB build and board up to ten discard spells postboard against NO RUG and other Misstep decks (4 Duress, 3 Seize, 3 Inquisition). The same approach could be used against Canadian in the current meta. The manabase was more than solid (10 Fetch, 4 Sea, 2 Island, 1 Swamp).

Here's a report: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?7800-Deck-Fetchland-Tendrils&p=576539&viewfull=1#post576539

Looking at that list, you could go -1 Hurkyl's Recall, +1 Wipe Away in the board and actually be more than allright in the current meta. It even had Dread of Night in the board.

Togores

08-13-2012, 04:28 AM

against what kind of MU would you side devastation tide?
gw--> tegg :(
CB --would be nice
Mud--> yes :D
What else? and why?

Silent Requiem

08-13-2012, 09:22 AM

When Mental Misstep was legal in Legacy, I used to play a straight UB build and board up to ten discard spells postboard against NO RUG and other Misstep decks (4 Duress, 3 Seize, 3 Inquisition). The same approach could be used against Canadian in the current meta. The manabase was more than solid (10 Fetch, 4 Sea, 2 Island, 1 Swamp).

Here's a report: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?7800-Deck-Fetchland-Tendrils&p=576539&viewfull=1#post576539

Looking at that list, you could go -1 Hurkyl's Recall, +1 Wipe Away in the board and actually be more than allright in the current meta. It even had Dread of Night in the board.

Like Entreri, I've been gravitating towards BW, Meditate & Discard. The power of double cantrip piles is undeniable, but being able to go off with only a single U available is not without merit. And the mana base doesn't do my head in. :tongue: Years of playing Solidarity have taught me a lot about the stack, but not much about colour management.

Leaving the issue of Cabal Therapy aside, though, is GP the best 9-12 cantrip for a Meditate build? Without double cantrip piles, would Preordain be better in this slot? Of course, looking at your UB build, another option is to simply run more business. Would the 4th Wish and some Cabal Rituals be better than GP?

emidln

08-13-2012, 09:58 AM

Ideas Unbound vs Meditate isn't a personal choice, Ideas Unbound is better in a lot of very common scenarios:

- UU + 2 life + cantrip cost to win right now vs 2U + cantrip cost to win right now
- double cantrip wins for the cost of the cantrips instead of B + cost of cantrips. This is often free or 1.
- you never draw Tendrils of Agony in games where you don't want it (because the 1-2 copies live in the board)

The blue mana doesn't matter because you were fetching out blue sources anyway. And if you weren't, you are probably losing games you shouldn't be to Wasteland (or misconstructing your manabase).

The only time you really want Meditate is in the face of Hymn decks, but Hymn decks without a fast clock (Delver + Goyf) are pretty rare these days. It's okay vs other control decks, but not nearly as strong as being able to win for less mana. You don't have issues with Spell Snare anymore (seriously 4 total copies in the top16 of SCG:KC, and never even in a t8 list).

Playing less than 15 cantrips is definitely wrong, and inserting an Ad Nauseam over the 16th is highly questionable. Play more cantrips, not fewer.

Silent Requiem

08-14-2012, 02:43 PM

Out of curiosity, if this deck could only be played in three colours, would it be more important to splash red for Burning Wish, or white for Silence?

emidln

08-14-2012, 03:16 PM

Out of curiosity, if this deck could only be played in three colours, would it be more important to splash red for Burning Wish, or white for Silence?

I refuse to play do-nothing win conditions in my main deck. This requires either insane bluffing skill or Burning Wish. Burning Wish also lets you play with extra copies of Doomsday that aren't the absolute worst (yes, I'm talking about *you*, Infernal Tutor).

Terminus

08-16-2012, 04:14 AM

Hey guys,

I'm new to the Doomsday archetype in general, but have some experience with TES. As far as I can tell, there are UB, UBR, UBW, and UBRW versions of the deck. What I can't find is whole decklists for each type as a place to start (since I would literally have 0 idea how to build this deck).

Also, the whole piles concept is extremely daunting. What's the best way to go about learning how to play this ridiculous deck? I honestly just can't figure out where to start.

Thanks for any help you guys can give me.

Silent Requiem

08-16-2012, 07:04 AM

Welcome to Doomsday. I have a love/hate relationship with this deck. I love the deck, but hate that I can't seem to settle on a build that I want to play long term. And make no mistake, knowing your particular build is an important element of playing a deck like Doomsday well. The fact I skip from build to build, attracted by the new "shiny stuff" in each variant, has probably hurt my ability to pilot the deck well.

Although Doomsday has a reputation as being one of the hardest decks to pilot, a large part of that reputation comes from the fact that (unlike most other decks) Doomsday has never had a decent primer (that I've seen, at least). Learning to play Solidarity and PSI (both decks of equal or greater complexity, in the view of many pilots) was much easier for me than learning Doomsday, just because of the quality of resources available.

Now, there are a lot of reasons for that - some valid, and some less valid, but here's the basic information I've gleaned over the last few months of playing Doomsday.

The early game:

Doomsday is a turn 3-4 deck. Like other slow combo decks, it wants to spend the first few turns taking damage on the chin while sculpting a hand that can win. Your primary tools are Brainstorm, Ponder and Sensei's Divining Top. Depending on your build, you may also have access to Infernal Tutor, Burning Wish, Gitaxian Probe and Preordain.

Doomsday is in no rush to win, and will generally take as much time as the opponent will give them. Depending on the kind of disruption you run, you might also be attacking your opponent's hand at this point. The first few turns are similar in this respect to playing ANT.

The piles:

While there are a near infinite number of Doomsday piles, the reality is that there are a few "go-to" piles for each build. Your early sculpting is designed to give you a hand and board state that allows for one of these piles. Other piles are only used when things have gone wrong or you need to fight through unusual amounts of hate.

The "standard pile" requires you to generate 6 mana (at least three of which is black, and at least one of which is blue) and 2 storm before casting Doomsday, while also having a cantrip effect (plus mana cost) for after you cast Doomsday. This is why Gitaxian Probe and SDT are so popular - they are a cantrip effect that costs nothing on the combo turn.

Where do these numbers come from? Well, the BBB requirement comes from Doomsday, of course, and the U2 or UUU requirement come from your card advantage engine. Doomsday gives you a stack of 5 cards, and in order to use them you need to be able to draw them. Thus, the first card of the stack is either Meditate or Ideas Unbound (your choice of card here will sharply affect the way your deck plays and the piles you build), and you use that cantrip effect you held back to draw the Meditate/IU, which then lets you pick up the rest of your library.

Note that despite the fact that IU costs UU, rather than Meditate's U2, you will still want to have access to the full 6 mana. This is because IU draws one less card, and so one of the cards in your pile will be cantrip (like Ponder) so that you can draw your final card. This drives up the cost of your pile so that it is on par with Meditate.

The 2 storm requirement comes from the fact that you need 10 storm to win. Doomsday plus your cantrip plus the five cards you draw are 7 storm. Probably, one of the cards you draw will generate an additional storm (casting BW for Tendrils, for example, or re-casting SDT), so you can often get 8 storm out of your pile without having to do anything particularly difficult (some piles can generate far, far more storm than this). That means that you need to cast at least 2 spells on the combo turn before you cast Doomsday (assuming your opponent has taken no damage during the game); 3 spells is probably safer, if we are discussing generalized piles.

So, you've done all that. You've cast protection (Duress/Silence), you've cast Dark Ritual, and you've played LED. You already have SDT in play. You now cast Doomsday, and need to build a pile. What next?

Well, we already know we want a draw spell on top. Let's assume we're playing Meditate, so after we draw the Meditate with SDT, we know we will Meditate into SDT and three cards, leaving us one card in the library. Top can get that card for us, so we don't need to worry about a cantrip; we just need to generate mana. So, let's go for Lotus Petal, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual. We then need to draw our kill card, Tendrils of Agony.

That gives us the following pile: Meditate, LP, DR, DR, ToA.

We then trigger SDT (cracking LED for UUU in response), and draw Meditate. We then use the UUU to cast Meditate, giving us SDT, LP, DR, DR.

We then use the LP to cast both Rituals, giving us 5 mana floating. One is used to cast SDT again, which we flip to grab ToA, which we cast with the 4 remaining mana.

The entire spell chain for the turn was therefore Protection > Dark Ritual > LED > Doomsday > (trigger SDT, crack LED) > Meditate > Lotus Petal > Dark Ritual > Dark Ritual > SDT > (trigger SDT) > Tendrils of Agony. Total storm = 10. You win.

That is pretty much the go-to Meditate pile. Simple, huh?

We can do the same thing with Ideas Unbound. Assume the same board state, but this time our pile will be IU, LED, LED, Ponder, Tendrils of Agony. We draw IU with the SDT, and only need to use two of our three mana from LED to cast it. We draw SDT, LED and LED. We play SDT with the leftover mana from the first LED, and then play out the second and third LEDs. We crack them both, one for UUU, the other for BBB, and then draw Ponder with SDT. We cast Ponder with one of our U mana, and then draw ToA for the kill.

The entire spell chain for the turn was therefore Protection > Dark Ritual > LED > Doomsday > (trigger SDT, crack LED) > Ideas Unbound > Lion's Eye Diamond > Lion's Eye Diamond > SDT > (trigger SDT, crack LEDs) > Ponder > Tendrils of Agony. Total storm = 10. You win.

Again, pretty simple. This is the go-to Ideas Unbound pile (ignoring BW piles and double cantrip piles).

Beyond this, most Doomsday players study a wide range of piles related to their build, and worksheets are available on the Storm Boards. Classic piles include piles designed to win around hate (such as Gaddock Teag), or where your opponent has gained a great deal of life (such as through Batterskull).

Choosing a build

This is where I fall down, but I'll give it a shot. :laugh:

First, Doomsday is always going to be UB at it's core, and any other colours are peripheral. The deck can be played successfully without any other colours, but splashing one or more colours adds another dimension to the deck at the cost of a more difficult manabase.

Red offers Burning Wish, Past in Flames and Empty the Warrens. While Doomsday is the main combo engine, the deck has the tools to randomly combo out "conventionally" and PiF and EtW build on this ability. Burning Wish offers another means of finding EtW, but is far more valuable as a way of finding your side-boarded copy of Doomsday, or your side-boarded solutions to G1 hate.

White offers Silence and Orims Chant. Neither of these help your combo directly, but they do change the way in which you deal with disruption. Although weaker against permanent based disruption, a resolved Silence means you are completely safe from counter-magic or burn while you combo out. It also allows you to safely abuse Ill-Gotten Gains, if you include this in your deck.

Green offers Xantid Swarm, as well as some additional solutions to permanent based hate (such as Krosian Grip). At the moment, this splash is a little less common, as Counterbalance (the prime Grip target) is not a large part of the meta, and many blue decks are running enough removal that Xantid Swarm may never get to attack.

The draw engine

If choosing whether to splash a colour (and if so, which colour) is your first big decision, your next big decision is whether to play Meditate or Ideas Unbound. Although Ideas Unbound is probably better overall, Meditate is still popular.

Ideas Unbound's big draw is the amazing double cantrip pile. We talked about the need to float 6 mana into the pile - BBB for Doomsday, and UUU for your draw card. However, with a double cantrip pile we can forget about the UUU.

Imagine that instead of having LED on the table in the above example, you had Gitaxian Probe in hand. This gives you two cantrip effects. Instead of putting IU on the top of the pile, put LED. Draw LED with GP, and play it out. Now crack the LED, and draw IU with top. The LED you drew will now allow you to cast IU, drawing SDT and two other cards (probably LED and LED). You then cast SDT with the one mana left over from your first LED, and use LEDs 2 & 3 to cast the ToA (or Burning Wish for ToA) that you then draw into with SDT.

In other words, you just managed a Doomsday pile with an initial 3 mana rather than 6. That's huge.

Meditate, on the other hand, allows piles that play through Spell Snare like it wasn't there, and does a much better job at building some of the more complicated piles (such as piles involving double Doomsday or IGG). I also feel it plays around Chalice @ 0 better - IU, being a weaker draw spell, relies more heavily on LED, whereas Meditate can often afford to use less efficient mana generators. On a personal note, I find Meditate more intuitive, because you just draw and cast all your cards, whereas building an IU pile requires you to keep thinking about which cards you have (and have not) drawn, and how you are going to draw the rest.

Further study:

If any of the above actually made sense, and you still want to play Doomsday, I'd recommend just reading through this thread. Yes, some of it is out-dated, but Doomsday is a deck you can only learn by doing, so proxy up and playtest a handful of different builds, and see what works for you. Also get yourself a list of common piles, and try them all out. It's a beautiful thing.