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Media314r8
12-26-2007, 03:16 PM
The List:

//Spells// (22)
3 x Slaughter Pact
3 x Thoughtseize
4 x Brainstorm
3 x Daze
2 x Umezawa's Jitte
3 x Damnation
4 x Force of Will

//Creatures// (14)
4 x Dark Confidant
4 x Looter il-Kor
3 x Shadowmage Infiltrator
3 x Psychatog

//Mana Sources// (24)
4 x Chrome Mox
4 x Underground Sea
4 x Polluted Delta
2 x Flooded Strand
1 x Island
1 x Swamp
4 x Mishra's Factory
4 x Wasteland

//Sideboard// (15)
4 x Chalice of the Void
3 x Pithing Needle
3 x Extirpate
1 x Umezawa's Jitte
4 x Engineered Plague

The Idea:

Dentist Appointment was designed to utilize my favorite creature, (who is now vying for most powerful against goyf) Psycatog as a wincon while not throwing all the proverbial eggs into one basket with a deck designed with tog as the sole wincon. The deck packs several guys with evasion and Jitte, as well as targeted and mass reoval backed by free counters. I've loved Looter il-kor ever since his release in Timespiral block, and routinely first-pick him in limited. His synergy with tog is undeniable, and I consider his 2 mana price tag to be roughly equivalent to a serum visons and a lava spike, as he nearly always resolves, and will often do between 3 and 5 points of damage, while smoothing out your draw and providing tog-chow for later. Bob seems like a natural fit in a UB tog deck, as his card advantage allows you to find, feed, and backup tog with countermagic. Shadowmage was added as another card-drawing engine. (i have abysmally poor luck, and need all the card quality/advantage i can to survive mana floods and stalls) The deck is rounded out with Permission in the form of Thoughtseize, daze, and Force, with creature removal in Slaughter Pact and Damnation. (which can yield massive advantage, as tog forces opponents to commit dudes to the board, and works well with the four factories and card-selection) I chose Pact over smother after much playtesting with both (and with sudden death), as smother often had to be played around daze, and was never guaranteed to resolve. Pact is nigh undaze-able, and with happily serve as a free hymn if someone forces it. The payment plan of Pact also helps when you need to remove a blocker and activate factories to swing in for the win. My list was as follows, and was wholly original, developed over a month and a half by myself and team-mate, Anthony Cuevas.

The Matchups:

Goblins: As with many decks battling the little green guys, it often comes down to who has the nuts and/or who is on the play. Killing lackey is essential, as without a chrome mox, the deck has no answers to a lackey on the draw other than force. (with c mox, bob and factory get there) The addition of thoughtseize over duress has helped immensely in the gobins match as once goblins gets rolling, it is often irrelevant whether you are at 10 or 20 life, a warcheif into dubs drivers is usually GG, as is a 2nd turn SCG via lackey. Poor goblins players with empty their hand and tutor for a card toehr than matron or ringleader, leaving themselves open to a tasty damnation. For slow-rolling goblins experts, damnation is just a speed-bump. Jitte, however, is a real game-winner, and makes the pre-board matchup about 40% in tog'd favor. Post-boards, 1 damnation comes out along with looters for 4 E plagues and another jitte. Daze comes out for pithing needles if you are on the draw, but daze is better on the play (as it kills lackey and vial) Post-boards, you should be highly favored (60-70% vs tested monored, red-green and red-white) slightly less vs my version of RB, which nabs three c therapies, a full playset of mad aunties, a king, (outnumbering your plagues effectively 5 to 4) and sharpshooters, as well as 2 tinkeres for your moxen, factories, and jittes. (my RB list is FAR from a normal goblins list though) Should goblins become less aggro oriented with things like fanatic, in favor of a more controling version such as my RB list, things could be as bad as 50%-50% after boards.

Counter-top Thresh: My buddy Kyle Paster and I have tested this matchup to death, and both pre and post-boards are in tog's favor. Slaughter pact is usually a free hymn or game-win when pointed at Goyf, and factories are irritating for mongeese to attack through. Turn one-bob or looter usually bring home the game via CQ/CA if not quickly bolt/fire-d. Damnation is a huge bomb, as I can usually draw out counters on key cards like bob and shadowmage, then 2for1 with damnation, often keeping a factory on the board and another threat in hand. Thoughtseize has been great in testing, and unless answered by a brainstorm, usually pulls out the only creature in the thresh players hand, or serves as one mana hymns 4-6. Post boards gets even better, as 2 brainstorms and 3 thoughtseizes come out for the third jitte and four chalices, more must-counter bombs, as it stops over half the cards in thresh. Counter-top has no way to hit 4, and few cards to hit three, (usually just boarded-in grips, if any) and i generally to slow and inferior to my chalices. I'd imagine UGw would have a better matchup against my deck, with grunts and swords serving as better beats than mongeese and bolts. I've had w splash players over-board against me though, once having both a mage AND a needle naming tog (which I had boarded out after seeing grunts game one.) Several fish players have also made math errors with goyfs running into togs with only certain permanant types in my yard, or played double grunts forgetting about tog's ability to eat from the yard. Against professional opponents, I'd put UGr thresh at 60% favorable pre-boards and 65% favorable post-boards, while UGw would be closer to 55% and 60%. UG, which is rare, is extemely favorable, as once looter or bob hits the table, thresh can't stop it. I actually only board in a jitte and EXTIRPATES against UG, as 'pating goyfs removes nearly every threat they have (especially the builds that run only four geese and four goyfs.) I'd put UG at 65-70% favorable.

Landstill (UGbw): Even to favorable depending on the build. I've never lost a match to landstill, having played against four decks in tournaments since building dentist appointment. That said, I have also never 2-0'd a landstill opponent with tog. Most games are won by resolved bombs, either a crucible on landstill's side or a jitte on my side. (usually carried by looter or shadowmage) Needles come in for thoughtseizes, and jitte and extirpates come in replacing Damnations and a daze. Control on control decks usually fight tooth-and nail, and this matchup is no exception. They run more counters, but I run more threats. My CQ/CA is superior however, as looter and bob can singlehandedly win games, and shadowmage can draw a concession if they don't see a deed in a few turns.

Fast Combo (TES): Straight 50%-50% game one. My friend Anthony and I have tested this match to death as well, and he almost allways goes for a 'safe golbins plan out of his hand turn one or two, else he gets bob or defense grid before trying at the tendrils kill. My own bob often lowers my life total thta he can have a tutor countered, tutor again next turn, and play a few accel/petals/moxen from hand an lethal tendrils. The goblins plan is often a game win if he goes for them turn one or two, but with 11 guys that draw cards and 4 brainstorms, the odds of me getting mox-mandation to save me on the play, or damnation to save me form later goblins is fairly high. 60-65% in Tog's favor, depending on the cards in his deck. (the matchup is more in my favor if the list doesn't have bobs) I get Chalice, and he gets spree, but I have MUCH more digging power and he is forced to play reactively, without his accel. Damnations and Pacts get baorded out along with jittes, for a full set of E plagues (naming EtW goblins) and chalices.

Slow Combo (high tide): I have six dead cards (and nealry two dead jittes that only give +4/+4 after the first hit) and a slower clock barring turn one bob, turn two mage, turn three tog shenanigans, so game one is nearly unwinnable without a force or two. Chalice is a house, as is extirpate, and those come in for 3 damnatsions 3 pacts, and 1 jitte. Extirpating Reset/high tide is strong, but if I have a slow start, solidarity can just wish for them again. Chalcie at one two, or three (!! it has happened before) is usually wins. 30% pre-board, 60% post-board. creature-based decks like Gamekeeper, Alluren, and Breakfast are more winnable.

Affinity: Vial hurts, and disiple hurts. This actually plays out much like goblins, save for that affinity has no removal, (barring a shrap blast, but that has become more and more rare) and I don't have to deal with turn one lackey. Slaughter pact and Dmanation are actually much more relavent here, and both wreck havok on modular. The most race-like match of any, as not too many guys on either side block. Older lists with frogs and enforcers are easier to win against than newer lists with epocite, goyf, bob, and vial. Jitte is again a house, and factory stares at frogmites and workers for most of the game. Shadowmage is the saddest of the bunch, and is on blocking duty for most all of game one, until he is boarded out for chalices/needles and a jitte. (with dazes or thoughtseizes depending on the build) Goyf-bob-vial is slightly unfavorable game one, while classic affinity is favorable. Both get better after boards. Classic Affinity 60% pre, 65-70 post boards. Goyf-Epo-Vial-Bob Affinity 40 pre, 50-55 post boards.

Burn: Game 1 is almost unwinnable. (6 dead cards again) You really need tog+jitte to win this, prefferably off a chrome mox. They will probably board in sprees to deal with your jittes, and hopefully you can land a chalice at 1 and hold a daze/FoW for when it comes. Board out dead cards, ect. Games 2 and 3 favorable. Fast games, as jitte/chalice-win, no jitte-lose. 30% pre, 60% post boards

MBA: Actually quite winnable, as though your pacts are dead, you have jitte and CA over a deck with almost none. Factories deal with almost all of their guys save for shade, and even hold back big negs. Chalices and Jittes from the board replace the shameful shadowmage. 55-60% pre and 70% post-boards. Hurrah for black having no artifact removal. Numbers are lsightly lower for Sui-black splashing Goyf.

The Experience:

I've been playing Dentist Appointment for over a year now, and am A big fan of the deck, as it has a favorable matchup against thresh, and neutral matches against most of the field, with a few other favorables. The sideboard packs something for most all decks, and It never feels like I'm unable to win, that most games come down to play skill, which makes it a fine deck to take to a tournament where you are unsure of the metagame. I've tied for first at a 30ish person legacy tournament in Columbus hosted by Steven Menedian at the Soldiary, and won two other tournaments, one in Akron (~20 people) and one in Los Angles. (about 25 people, but the playskill of CA left mush to be desired) I've always had a positive match record at tournaments, and I enjoy the interactivity and decision-making of the deck. I hope you enjoyed reading about it as much as Ive enjoyed building and playing it, and urge you to at least proxy it up and test against some of the other DTB/DTW.

Cheers,
Eric Blegen
Team Lucksack

EDIT: here is a link to the tournament in Columbus I tied for first in. http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=33758.msg483397#msg483397

slobad23
12-27-2007, 08:57 AM
Well a psychatog deck eh... there goes my submission. Let's see if we can't get the ball rolling then!

I have played psychatog since i started playing magic (after the scrubby "lots of blue flyers" and "big green fatties that cost 9 mana" days).

Legacy is the first time I myself have splashed green. I never did it in extended for life from the loam and deed, but that was when the mana could not support it (no ravnica duals at the time). By the time extended players had their lovely dual land goodness, I had well and truly sunk my teeth into legacy.

Just a bit of an introduction there so you know I have played the deck before. U/B version in extended and standard, U/B/g in legacy.

Here are some Quick notes I made when looking at your deck:

Slaughter Pact: I really like this for several reasons. It is going to be safe from daze more often than not, but also it is safe from spell snare - an important point that i feel was missed out. I use slaughter pact, but as a cunning with target. More on this later.

Thoughtsieze: Bob and fetch lands and then this! I have started to see goblins main deck pyro-K in my meta so you will not have your looter, bob (alright so he might die before losing you any life) and infiltrator to carry a jitte for life. That is, if the jitte isn't killed by a hooligan.

/* Please note at this point, I want tog to do well and I am not trying to slate everything about your deck. I just want some bits and pieces cleared up, so that both I, and other people understand a little more about the deck and the choices.

Counter Magic: 3 daze and 4 force... Let's just count thoughtsieze fore the sake of arguement. that is 10. Now lets assume the only threats you let resolve are creatures, Then you can slaughter pact and damnation them away. Without deed though, You HAVE to counter that solitary confinement or equivelant spell. Alluren was a deck that, to me, had a similar issue - at least at first. I looked at the counter magic and say 3 cabal therapy and 4 force of will. It didnt seem like enough until i played against it. When you win as early as alluren does/can (turn 3 at the earliest) then that seems like a fine number - especially with therapy counting three of your creatures as more discard. With only 4 hard counters, it just seems like your combo matchup's should be quite difficult without a fast clock - several one power creatures does not count as a clock to me.

Damnation - better than deed and Engineered explosives? please let me know how and why.

Chrome mox: I tried this card to death and I just couldn't get to love it as much in practice as i could when i thought about it in theory. It didn't perform well for me with fact or fiction, Intuition and AK and life from the loam + cycling lands. When you can only make up for that card disadvantage with creatures who will all die to a lightning bolt (and 2/3's will die to a mogg fanatic), i can't see how it would be better.

The mana base in general looks shaky. If we count chrome mox as one whole mana source (doesn't sound right but let's do it anyway), You are down to 16 lands that produce coloured mana. Wasteland AND daze seem alright in thresh because they can then throw down a 2 mana threat which is huge (we'll call it a a mere 4/5 goyf). You have to get up to three mana to cast something which will have a daze thrown right back at you from thresh, providing they haven't wastelanded you or stifled your fetches.

Chalice in the board looks a little out of place too. If you set it at one, you are losing your brainstorms and thoughtsieze (and why would you have taken those out for chalice? surely they stay in for the matches where chalice would be there to make the difference?).

ALL CRITICISM OUT THE WAY THEN!

Here is a a quick list I have used which is a little less original, but I think it would help for you to go over a conventional list and explain why your list has the edge, or why your list benefits in areas the normal psychatog deck you would expect in legacy doesn't.

3x Psychatog

4x Accumulated Knowledge
4x Brainstorm
2x Fact or Fiction
1x Life from the Loam

3x Stifle
2x Spell Snare
4x Counterspell
4x Force of Will

3x Intuition
3x Cunning Wish (this for berserk is just something i could not live without in tog)
3x Pernicious Deed
1x Engineered Explosives

4x Polluted Delta
1x Flooded Strand
4x Underground Sea
4x Tropical Island
1x Wasteland
1x Mishra's Factory
3x Lonely Sandbar
1x Swamp
4x Island

SIDEBOARD:

4x Engineered Plague
4x Duress
1x Corpse Dance
1x Slaughter Pact
1x Berserk
1x Hideous Laughter
1x Echoing Truth
1x Krosan Grip
1x Fact or Fiction

Slobad23

Media314r8
12-27-2007, 10:22 AM
@slobad23, I'll start at the beginning:

@ slaughter pact: I'm not sue that wishing for a pact seems like savage tech to me, as it's really paying UB4 for a dark banashing, and considering YOUR manabase, I would be highly cautious of pacting unless I had at LEAST two black sources, as wastelands are not a 3 color manabase's friend when a clause reads 'pay 2B or lose the game'.

@ Life lost to TS/Bob/Fetches. I think the fetches are moot, as nearly every deck and some mono-colored decks are running fetches nowadays. Bob has been in lists with TOMBSTALKER and FoW, as the CA he generates is really that gamebreaking. (plus jitte can recover life faster, and damnation takes him off the board if need be, not to suggest that damnationing ONLY bob would be the play) I've tested duress and c therapy in the slot, but the possibility to pluck thresh's only guy, or a goblin player's lackey/SCG/Ringleader more than makes up for the 2 life over the course of the game. Thresh, in my experience, either time-walks themselves with daze, or Hymns themselves to protect their sole goyf. Either one is a fine use of B, and involves no life loss. With damnation in the deck, knowing the contents of someone's hand is actually very relevant, as it allows you to better utilize you kill spells, counters, and damnation, which in turn can yield 2 or 3 for one CA and usually brings home the game. TS>>Duress, and is another answer to turn one lackey, as well as goyf, enforcer, ect.

@ Countermagic fast combo decks win through either resolving a key spell (belcher/tutor cracking LED in response) and FoWing their spell is about the only way to beat such a play game one. Realistically, only landstill would be keeping mana up for a hard counterspell/spell snare at this point, as thresh is cantripping and casting beats early game while relying on their same free counters. I have 10 guys thta draw me cards and 4 brainstorms. Once board position is established, I can usually find the permission I need with my CA/CQ. The other option fast combo has is EtW, which puts me in a slightly worse position than decks running Deed, as I either need to live until turn four, or I need to have a mox and a damnation. No offense, but have you ever tested chalice against fast combo or thresh. Losing BS and TS is MORE than worth shutting down half of their deck, as well as the card filtering portion they use to FIND the other half. Chalice for 0 can absolutly wreck combo, as many of their 'god' hands rely not on dark rits, but on LEDs, chrome moxen, and lotus petals. A chalice for 0 is usually 2 turns that fast combo has to spend to fight through it or wish/shattering spree it.

@ Damnation vs Deed: Damnation kills everything, including tombstalker, exalted once flipped, baloths, and E dragons. It does so the turn it is cast, and cannot be needled/stifled/K Gripped. Damnation is not hit by counterbalance as Deed may be. Damnation costs an additional mana, but unless in such an EtW situation as above, is superior save for it's CMC. I run 24 mana sources, including factories and moxen, so I am able to reliably hit four lands, and Deed has anti-synergy with most of my deck. I build the deck to utilize damnation, and I think everyone would agree that while Deed's CMC and ability to hose random things and kill non-creature permanents make it superior in many situations, it is inferior to damnation in my deck.

@ Chrome mox unless a deck is built to utilize strong one-drops, Chrome mox is a grand option with such CMC 2 guys as looter and bob. Dropping one of these guys turn one (with daze/FoW protection) allows the CA/CQ (and beats) to start turn as early as two. If I were playing Dark ritual and MBA or MBC, I would drop the moxen as they dont provide as much raw power as dark rit, but without 1 drops, Chrome mox is essential to my deck's game plan. I really hate all the Junk fish decks I see not playing with C mox or vial, as they usually include daze (which gets worse late game) and often have no 1 drops other than card-filtering, and not at thresh's scale even. Is the plan really to use a daze on an opponent's critter and then AGAIN not have a 1 drop? Thresh properly uses daze as it has mongoose to start a clock, burn to kill blockers/lackeies/mother type annoyances, and card filtering all on one land. Decks without one drops either need to run spell snare/force spike and infinite two drops, (snare active turns one and three with two drops on two and three) or vial/mox/other random accel to power out a threat and still have daze as an answer that doesnt horribly crew you as well.

@ Decklist: I'm not going to bash your deck, but as I stated in my opening paragraph, I am not a fan of one-card wincons, as unless I'm not seeing something, you lose to extirpate on tog. (unless factories can get there) You also only have 18 lands that come into play untapped and produce colored mana, and most likely you will be fetching a non-basic first. This makes you much more vulnerable to wastelands. Intuition and the loam engine are notably strong, but also are HIDEOUSLY SLOW, and with goyfs and goblins in the format, I'd prefer to have a deck that wins before turn 12ish. Also, 10 permission spells +6/7 draw spells > 11 permission spells + 14 draw spells ???

Media314r8
12-27-2007, 01:22 PM
avg casting cost for bob is 1.7 BTW.

slobad23
12-27-2007, 01:40 PM
Thanks for the lengthy reply to all my questions Media. Just to say again, I was looking for answers and that is what you gave - I wasn't posting to say "yours is rubbish and mine is brilliant".

For the moment, I have no further questions your honour.

:smile:

Mental
12-27-2007, 02:56 PM
Wow Media, this is one of the best Tog lists I've seen for a while (I'll probably try it out for fun). I have one concern - basically, your average casting cost may be 1.7, but you're still running 4x FoW, 3x Damnation, 3x Tog, 3x Slaughter Pact, and 3x Shadowmage. That's a lot of bolts (and Fireblasts and Lava Axes) to the face. And remember, while Black Thresh may run Tombstalker sometimes, it usually runs it with SDT. You don't run SDT, so you have no way of filtering the good from the bad.

Why only 3 Thoughtseize?

Aside from that, great work.

Ewokslayer
12-27-2007, 03:05 PM
Slaughter Pact costs zero and thus causes no damage from Bob.

Mental
12-27-2007, 03:07 PM
Slaughter Pact costs zero and thus causes no damage from Bob.

That's hot.
But chalice@0 pwns it. That must hurt for your goblins MU, post SB.

Media314r8
12-27-2007, 03:24 PM
Sideboard for those of you with broken mouse wheels (or tired eyes in long threads):



//Sideboard// (15)
4 x Chalice of the Void
3 x Pithing Needle
3 x Extirpate
1 x Umezawa's Jitte
4 x Engineered Plague


@ no ways to filer: brainstorm x4... its not top, but it does help.

@ Chalice interactions with slaughter pact: If goblins boards in chalice against me, I'm probably winning against an incompotent opponent. The real concern, is CB revealing lands. Many of my thresh opponents just sigh when I play this, knowing that they dont have any 0 CMCs in their deck, not relizing lands count as 0s and stop pacts. Pros will realize this, and I may board them out games two and three depending on how many cards I see a thresh player board in (7 for 4 tops 3 CB will incline me to board out my pacts, storms, and TS for jitte, Chalice, e plague naming mongoose.)

@ # of thoughtseize: 3 is the number to play if you want to consistantly see 1 TS a game, but would prefer not to see two. I would never want two TS in my opener unless I wanted to pitch one to a chrome mox/looter. This is the reason I have many cards as a 3-of. I don't mind seeing two bobs, factories, looters, or brainstorms during a game, but two early togs in hand or two damnations clog up an opener.

@ slobad23: Thanks for your imput and tolerance of my shrill reply. You deck is certainly innovative as it can handle many things most decks with tog as the sole wincon cant: EX; you can win even if there is any combination of mage/and/or needle naming both tog AND Deed, not many tog decks can claim that. I like your deck, but I prefer more interactive decks, as it allows for more play errors by my opponent, and hopefully gives a more skilled player advantage rather than be at the mercy of poor draws.

DeepfriedDynamite
01-01-2008, 01:55 PM
Umezawa's jitte seems weak here. Sure 2 of your creatures have evasion, but none of your creatures are ment or suited for combat so you wont be killing to many creatures with it. I would try something like smother in its place or another draw spell.

Media314r8
01-04-2008, 01:56 PM
@ Jitte being weak

I cannot stress to you how many games jitte and factory win. Damnation leaves Moxen, Facotries, and Jitte on the table, as opposed to deed, and post-damnation, not much can race a factory wielding a jitte. (especially if some counters are allready on jitte.) Evasion guys become either 5/5s with jitte, or ensure that they can go on the offense while accumulating counters, while intimidating goyfs facing down factories on D. Jitte also is good game against goblins and burn if it sticks.

Nihil Credo
01-05-2008, 08:29 PM
What exactly stops this deck from running CounterTop itself (Top main, CB in the board)? Is UU that big of a problem? In my experience with Threshold, it's often dropped on turn 3 to dodge Daze, so if you can pay for your six 1UB guys you should also manage to pay for Counterbalance.

Media314r8
01-06-2008, 03:19 AM
@ counter-top:

Counter top takes up too many slots and far too much mana. Unlike thresh, this deck doesn't go 'gose, counter any and all threats until mana open for goyf and spell snare with daze/FoW backup. Jitte, Factory, damnation, ect consume a lot of mana and keeping one-two open every turn seems poor, especially for something taking up slots in my sideboard. with all the draw and looting, top wouldnt do much as far as CQ, other than ensure bob doesnt kill me. I like CB/Top, but I dont think this is the deck for it. Perhaps in a deck with vial, aveger, mom, ect.

galeng
01-06-2008, 11:28 AM
You frequently mention how you go bob turn 1. Please explain how this works.

Peter_Rotten
01-06-2008, 11:30 AM
You frequently mention how you go bob turn 1. Please explain how this works.

I could be wrong, but Chrome Mox may allow a casting of Turn 1 Bob. :rolleyes:

Media314r8
01-16-2008, 04:39 PM
I'm currently testing Mutavault as factories 5-7 and upping the strands to 3, dropping wastelands for these slots. Should help slightly with the colored mana requirements, and 7 Factories more fully abuse Damnation than 4 wastelands punished poor manabases. (wastes might have stayed, and may yet go back in, but for now, without any additional land hate like stifle or sinkhole, I'm tending towards the Man-land offensive plan after wiping the board)