[Deck] Merfolk

[Tru3z3rox]

propaganda doesn't do much vs zoo with 4 pridemage and grips in the sb. Our creatures still die to lightening bolt and there creatures are still bigger. The can just sit back and get the extra lands needed, turn 3 propaganda isn't that great.

I agree. I think the best bet is to run kira md. I run 2 of her and I absolutely love her. She has saved my ass so many times before. Granted she doesn't synergize well with sovereign's ability, but who cares.

I think coralhelm will see a rise in play as well.

I am hesitant to go the route of some merfolk decks with taking out control and putting in more aggro. I think 8 counters is an absolute minimum and I really like running 2 echoing truth md.

What do you guys think of cold-eyed selkie as a draw engine if I've opted away from standstill?

[atropos]

Has anybody tried playing with Tidal Courier? It's the Merfolk equivalent of Goblin Ringleader. Is it not used cause it's 4 CMC?

[Phoenix Ignition]

Has anybody tried playing with Tidal Courier? It's the Merfolk equivalent of Goblin Ringleader. Is it not used cause it's 4 CMC?

Running Force, Daze, Aether Vial, and sometimes things like 4x Standstill, 2x Echoing Truth or Spell Pierces makes Merfolk Courier a lot less likely to be as much card advantage as Goblin Ringleader. Aside from that our only way to cheat in creatures for less mana is Aether Vial, whereas goblins have Lackey, Vial, Chieften (paying 3 is a lot better than paying 4 in legacy). Also his power/toughness and ability are a lot worse than 2/2 Haste is.

Goblins are lucky to have a good cycling creature removal as well as even things like Warren Weirding which counts as a goblin. Merfolk aren't lucky enough to have this, so our ringleader isn't very good.

[cdr]

I posted a little mini-report in the Tournament Reports forum: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?17975-4-1-with-Ug-Merfolk-Rochester-RIT-weekly&p=464652

[atropos]

Running Force, Daze, Aether Vial, and sometimes things like 4x Standstill, 2x Echoing Truth or Spell Pierces makes Merfolk Courier a lot less likely to be as much card advantage as Goblin Ringleader. Aside from that our only way to cheat in creatures for less mana is Aether Vial, whereas goblins have Lackey, Vial, Chieften (paying 3 is a lot better than paying 4 in legacy). Also his power/toughness and ability are a lot worse than 2/2 Haste is.

Goblins are lucky to have a good cycling creature removal as well as even things like Warren Weirding which counts as a goblin. Merfolk aren't lucky enough to have this, so our ringleader isn't very good.

Oh that makes a lot of sense. Tidal Courier's P/T and activated ability are pretty underwhelming compared to Ringleader so I see your point.

[Tru3z3rox]

Has anybody tried playing with Tidal Courier? It's the Merfolk equivalent of Goblin Ringleader. Is it not used cause it's 4 CMC?

Yes it just doesn't work as in gobs. I don't even run the ringleader of elves either, because I run too many important non-elf spells in that deck. Brutal to see them put on the bottom of your library.

Any views on cold-eyed selkie?

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Any views on cold-eyed selkie?

My view is that he suxxors. The last time I gave him any real thought was about a year ago... Y'know, when there were a bit more Islands running around the metagame. And even then, I decided he wasn't good enough to run, and I'm pretty sure I was right.

Basically, it seems to me that he improves matchups that are already decent for us, whereas in our problem matches, he's a little 1/1 for three mana that might get in there for damage once and cantrip.

[DCTopTeam]

Corralhelm is amazing. Currently running two, will be running three still need to find one. Anyway, is there still no solution to the mana-flood issues of MonoU Merfolk?

[Ludwitch]

Yesterday, I played Merfolk for the first time. Finished Top8 with 4-1-1 and won 2 Thoughtseize *woohoo*

Now I want to play the deck again and make some adjustments. I am thinking about playing 16 Lords +2 Kira, 8 Counters. No Standstill, no Jitte. That would leave me with the decision to play 22 lands (like the list that won the Bazaar of Moxen tournament) or play 20 lands plus something like echoing truth.

What I would like to know from those of you that have played with 4 Coralhelm Commanders: Are 20 Lands enough? What is your experience? How many lands does the deck need?

[atropos]

What I would like to know from those of you that have played with 4 Coralhelm Commanders: Are 20 Lands enough? What is your experience? How many lands does the deck need?

Congrats on your finish, Ludwitch. I was actually having the same problem. I'm also not sure if 20 lands are enough with 4 Coralhelm Commanders. I've actually seen a few decks on deckcheck that run the same exact list as me but I haven't done enough testing to confirm if 20 is enough. Any thoughs on this?

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=36599

[TheyCallMeTim]

Yesterday, I played Merfolk for the first time. Finished Top8 with 4-1-1 and won 2 Thoughtseize *woohoo*

Now I want to play the deck again and make some adjustments. I am thinking about playing 16 Lords +2 Kira, 8 Counters. No Standstill, no Jitte. That would leave me with the decision to play 22 lands (like the list that won the Bazaar of Moxen tournament) or play 20 lands plus something like echoing truth.

Congrats. What list did you top 8 with?

[Tru3z3rox]

Yesterday, I played Merfolk for the first time. Finished Top8 with 4-1-1 and won 2 Thoughtseize *woohoo*

Now I want to play the deck again and make some adjustments. I am thinking about playing 16 Lords +2 Kira, 8 Counters. No Standstill, no Jitte. That would leave me with the decision to play 22 lands (like the list that won the Bazaar of Moxen tournament) or play 20 lands plus something like echoing truth.

What I would like to know from those of you that have played with 4 Coralhelm Commanders: Are 20 Lands enough? What is your experience? How many lands does the deck need?

I personally run 19 lands, so of course I think that 20 are enough. I do however only run 3/3 split of wastes and mutavaults. I think with most of our curve at 2 and vials we can safely run 19-21 lands as long as enough of them are islands. I really like echoing truth in the main as it has saved me many times in the past. Also I don't know about running 4 coralhelms. That seems a bit much on the leveler. I think 3 is the right number.

[CleverPetriDish]

So I am interested...
You guys usually side out Standstill against Zoo (and goblins?), right? It is nuts against blue and lackluster against aggro from what I have seen. So with all the shift we are expecting, is Standstill too slow now?

[cdr]

I would side out Force against Zoo before I would side out Standstill. My hope against zoo is to contain them early game and then win when they run out of cards. I might take out Standstill if I had enough to side in, though.

[Purgatory]

I'm currently testing Pithing Needle in the Sideboard of my list and I have to say it's been working well so far. The opportunity to turn off Engineered Explosives, Jace 2, Umezawa's Jitte, Grim Lavamancer, fetchlands, Maze of Ith, Pernicious Deed, Rishadan Port, Sensei's Divining Top, Cephalid Colisseum etc. etc. with one little sharp silver bullet is pretty good, especially since I run a splash list with no room for utility stuff like Stifle.

[Svenanole]

@purg- I agree with you. I was running stifle before starting to run UW because of the amount of zoo/goblins

4 Curcecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
3 Coralhelm Commander
4 Merrow Reejerey
2 Kira, Great Glass Spinner

4 Force
4 Daze
4 Vial
4 Swords
2 Jittes

4 Flooded
3 Misty
3 Tundra
3 Island
1 Plains
4 vaults
3 wastes

4 perimeter captain
2 Threads
2 Pithing
3 Meddling Mage
2 Tormods
2 Relics

perimeters are nuts against zoo/goblins.

[DragoFireheart]

With the banning of Mystical Tutor, this means that more Zoo players are going to pop up. How is this deck going to handle the increase in Zoo decks?

[cdr]

If your meta is full of zoo, this is the wrong deck to play.

[TheyCallMeTim]

With the banning of Mystical Tutor, this means that more Zoo players are going to pop up. How is this deck going to handle the increase in Zoo decks?

Play the UW version and run some of the following wherever possible:

Swords to Plowshares
Path to Exile
Stand // Deliver
Consign to Dream
Propaganda
Back to Basics
Sejiri Merfolk
Standstill
etc.

[Purgatory]

imo, if you wanna play in a Zoo meta, run Ghostly Prison over Propaganda when you splash. Not being able to REB it is bad for the Zoo player.

It can still get Pridemage'd though :(

[dyzzy]

Did anyone see this BU list from another thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?18029-GPT-06-19-10-New-Game-In-Town-DeKalb-IL-Top-8-Decklists)?


2nd - Matt Langford
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
3 Island
1 Swamp
4 Mutavault
3 Wasteland
4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Rejerey
2 Merfolk Soveirgn
2 Wake Thrasher
2 Cold-Eyed Selkie
4 Aether Vial
3 Standstill
3 Smother
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Umezawa's Jitte

----------------------------------------

Sideboard:
2 Blue Elemental
2 Extirpate
1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Spell Pierce
2 Kira, Great-Glass Spinner
2 Threads of Disloyalty
1 Pithing Needle
2 Perish

Just thought it was interesting, looks really off-beat (Selkie? Extirpate?) but I guess he must have done something right. (Then again, maybe not, since he lost to combo in the finals.)

PS: I just realized why we lose so much to Zoo, it's cat tribal vs. fish tribal, the cats are naturally going to win.

[Endrju]

I would side out Force against Zoo before I would side out Standstill. My hope against zoo is to contain them early game and then win when they run out of cards.

Could you explain me please how you want to contain zoo in the early game without having FoW?
(Say nothing about the fact that waiting for a deck containg sylvan libraries to run out of cards doesn't look like a good strategy to me ;) )

First maybe the decklist, before showing my sideplan for this MU:

Main(61):
12x Island
4x Mutavault
4x Wasteland
4x Cursecatcher
4x Silvergill Adept
4x Lord of Atlantis
4x Merrow Reejerey
2x Merfolk Sovereign
2x Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
2x Spell Snare
4x Standstill
3x Stifle
4x AEther Vial
Side (15):
3x Submerge
2x Llawan, Cephalid Empress
2x Relic of Progenitus
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Ravenous Trap
2x Umezawa's Jitte
3x Blue Elemental Blast
1x Threads of Disloyalty

So against Zoo i changed it always that way:
IN: 2x Jitte, 2x Relic, 3x Submerge, 1x Threads
OUT: 2x Stifle, 3x Standstill, 3x Daze on play, 1x Stifle, 3x Standstill, 4x Daze on draw. And I found it working well ;)
(but it's important to remember that sideboard isn't all, as spell snares and kiras in mainboard are amazing in this MU)


If your meta is full of zoo, this is the wrong deck to play.

I don't think so. I haven't tested yet the 16-lords version, but I suppose it to handle better with zoo than the old stifle+standstill one, with which (posted above) I did, however, 2-0-1 against Zoos in Madrid, with unluckily tied game as I left my opp having just 2 or 3 life points after 5th turn of termination, with pretty significant advantage on my side of the table. So if 'almost 3-0' is possible with the old version, the new one should easily cope in this MU.

To be honest, I haven't played much since GP Madrid, so the list I posted may be bit out of date, but if it worked well against zoo back then, why wouldn't it now? ;)

[TheyCallMeTim]

I'm glad you are having success against Zoo with a mono U version but it seems to me that the deck definitely needs some removal. With that in mind, I've been working on a UW version that I hope will have success in the new meta, whatever that may be. I certainly don't have an optimal build, just throwing around ideas of what I should be testing. Here's my current list:


3 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
3 Merfolk Sovereign

4 Aether Vial
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Daze
2 Stand / Deliver
4 Force of Will

4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
8 Island
1 Plains


Any input? Sideboard thoughts?

[DCTopTeam]

Vs Zoo why do you side-in Jitte when Zoo packs a ton of removals? Jitte's like begging for a creature at that stage. Somebody please explain to me the LOGIC? And I also see that people are now taking away Standstill MD, with Zoo running rampant I think that's a good choice.

[TheSleeper]

So Alex B came 2nd in the SCG Open with this (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=33477) list. I believe is card for card the same as the BoM IV winner -> 22 land (1 Mishra), no Standstill, 2 Kira MD, 4 Coral etc. Not sure about the Snow-Covered Islands tho? Another top 8 (2/41) here (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=36605) kept the 22 land but swapped the factory for a 14th Island. Anyone got opinions on which is better (Factory vs. 14th island)?

Anyways congrats to him on his finish, especially in the face of all the Zoo/Goblins that were no doubt present!

[Endrju]

Vs Zoo why do you side-in Jitte when Zoo packs a ton of removals? Jitte's like begging for a creature at that stage. Somebody please explain to me the LOGIC?

If you play Kira those tons of removal aren't so scary, if you stay with equipped guy as you play the spirit your in a great position. But it isn't the only way Jitte is useful in this MU of course:
-Opp will probably side in his own Jittes. And guess what is the best answer for the opponent's jitte merfolk have?
-it's one of the best topdecks if you both are in the topdecking mode, with noone having advantage on the table (what is really often in games 2-3 with your Submerges and grave hate)
-if you leave some stifles in the deck there's always a chance to provoke qasali to commit a suicide ;)
-it requires only one swing to pump your guys enough to resist any of his burns, so it's better to have lord that can be only sworded/pathed, than the one that can be helixed, bolted and chained as well.

Actually, lot of my games against zoo looked like opp having 0/1 goyfs, 2/2 knights or amazing 1/1 lavamancers with both graveyards empty, while I had already few lords gone, buying time with mutavault for example, and we both stayed with empty hand waiting for something to turn our guys bigger than the other one's. In that case I definitely prefer to draw jitte than daze, standstil, fow or other stifle...

[Finn]

@DCTopTeam, I side in Jitte against Zoo for game two almost always (when I have it) the main reason being as a disenchant. Yes, it is hard to connect with it, but if they get one going you are dead. And you can bet that more Zoo decks will be packing them in the future.

[neji21]

jitte seems too slow against zoo especially with quasali and their own jittes around.

[PanderAlexander]

I went to the Knightware tournament in L.A. yesterday Sunday and ended up 1st out of 51 with mono-blue Merfolk. I played the list without Standstills. Before the tournament my friend and I noticed it was a huge Zoo meta and yep I decided to play Merfolk.

My record was 7-0-2

Rd 1: Reanimator went 2-1
Rd 2: Zoo went 2-0
Rd 3: Zoo went 2-0
Rd 4: Zoo went 2-0
Rd 5: draw
Rd 6: draw
- Top 8 consisted of me with merfolk, reanimator, zoo, zoo, dredge, ant, UBR fairies, and eva green
Quarter-finals: Dredge 2-1
Semi-finals: Ant 2-1
Finals: Reanimator he dropped to me and we split the prizes

The new Coralhelm Commander is amazing, it won me so many games, especially against Zoo. I didn't lose a single game against Zoo and it wasn't a fluke since I went against 3.* All Zoo games my opponent came out blistering fast with good hands but I played the matchup different, I didn't try to stall and out-attrition my opponent, instead I was really aggressive. I can't say enough about Kira that hasn't been said already, she's amazing.

I had one maindeck jitte and one sideboard jitte, if I had to do it again they would both be out. They were too slow, I'd cast it, waste mana equiping just to have the creature removed or against Zoo they have enough creature removal and pridemages.

[boclfon479]

I went to the Knightware tournament in L.A. yesterday Sunday and ended up 1st out of 51 with mono-blue Merfolk. I played the list without Standstills. Before the tournament my friend and I noticed it was a huge Zoo meta and yep I decided to play Merfolk.
*
My record was 7-0-2
*
Rd 1: Reanimator went 2-1
Rd 2: Zoo went 2-0
Rd 3: Zoo went 2-0
Rd 4: Zoo went 2-0
Rd 6: draw
Rd 7: draw
Top 8 consisted of me with merfolk, reanimator, zoo, zoo, dredge, ant, UBR fairies
Quarter-finals: Dredge 2-1
Semi-finals: Ant 2-1
Finals: Reanimator he dropped to me
*
The new Coralhelm Commander is amazing, it won me so many games, especially against Zoo.* I didn't lose a single game against Zoo and it wasn't a fluke since I went against 3.* All Zoo games my opponent came out blistering fast with good hands but I played the matchup different, I didn't try to stall and out-attrition my opponent, instead I was really aggressive.* I can't say enough about Kira that hasn't been said already, she's amazing.
*
I had one maindeck jitte and one sideboard jitte, if I had to do it again they would both be out.* They were too slow, I'd cast it, waste mana equiping just to have the creature removed or against Zoo they have enough creature removal and pridemages.

mind posting your list? i am contemplating either merfolk or aggro elves for post ban legacy, but i was curould about your list because you stated that zoo was fairly easy for it.

[dyzzy]

2-0 against 3 Zoo in a row? Give me some of your magic Merfolk juice!

[Sleepless]

I went to the Knightware tournament in L.A. yesterday Sunday and ended up 1st out of 51 with mono-blue Merfolk. I played the list without Standstills. Before the tournament my friend and I noticed it was a huge Zoo meta and yep I decided to play Merfolk.

I was going to go to this tournament, but unfortunately, I didn't. Great to hear that the no Standstill list is doing well, since that's the build I've come to play nowadays. And of course, congratulations to you.

I'm still feeling pretty reluctant to take out Echoing Truth, just because I like some kind of answer to cards that couldn't be countered and are already on the field. Am I just being weird on this one?

[Vacrix]

I went to the Knightware tournament in L.A. yesterday Sunday and ended up 1st out of 51 with mono-blue Merfolk. I played the list without Standstills. Before the tournament my friend and I noticed it was a huge Zoo meta and yep I decided to play Merfolk.
*
My record was 7-0-2
*
Rd 1: Reanimator went 2-1
Rd 2: Zoo went 2-0
Rd 3: Zoo went 2-0
Rd 4: Zoo went 2-0
Rd 6: draw
Rd 7: draw
Top 8 consisted of me with merfolk, reanimator, zoo, zoo, dredge, ant, UBR fairies
Quarter-finals: Dredge 2-1
Semi-finals: Ant 2-1
Finals: Reanimator he dropped to me
*
The new Coralhelm Commander is amazing, it won me so many games, especially against Zoo.* I didn't lose a single game against Zoo and it wasn't a fluke since I went against 3.* All Zoo games my opponent came out blistering fast with good hands but I played the matchup different, I didn't try to stall and out-attrition my opponent, instead I was really aggressive.* I can't say enough about Kira that hasn't been said already, she's amazing.
*
I had one maindeck jitte and one sideboard jitte, if I had to do it again they would both be out.* They were too slow, I'd cast it, waste mana equiping just to have the creature removed or against Zoo they have enough creature removal and pridemages.
You played really well but you should have lost to the ANT player dude. He had 7 mana to play around the 2 cursecatchers and FoW in game 2. He played his Chrome Mox imprinting the Pact and he had another Pact and AdN in hand. He just freaked out and gave up for whatever reason.

[kitsunewarlock]

I went 2nd at Shuffle and Cut on Saturday. Only 16 people or so. I tried running Fade Away in my SB against Elves or Goblins--neither of which showed up at the tournament. I don't recommend the stradegy after rereading the card like 5 times and seeing the words "permanent" instead of "creature" at the end of the sentence. I only lost to Bant Aggro--he went "Kor Mystic into Sword of Fire and Ice" all 4 games (I played him once during tournament and again in the last match for first). What's the best stradegy against these decks? I think I just need to run Submerge and Threads, although I've been avoiding the cards for some unknown reason.

WU tempo and BANT-aggro will always be a thorn in my side..but Coralhelm was amazing and I'm definately running 4 now.

[Endrju]

Rd 2: Zoo went 2-0
Rd 3: Zoo went 2-0
Rd 4: Zoo went 2-0


Lovely, does anyone still consider any W or G splashes to improve their results against Zoo? :P
Well, like people above me, I'm curious about your list - why don't you post it?

[PanderAlexander]

You played really well but you should have lost to the ANT player dude. He had 7 mana to play around the 2 cursecatchers and FoW in game 2. He played his Chrome Mox imprinting the Pact and he had another Pact and AdN in hand. He just freaked out and gave up for whatever reason.

I punted the first game bad to him, I didn't double daze before cabal ritual, Matt(Forbiddan) pointed it out to me I got pissed at myself that my first error was so simple and at such a crucial point in the tournament.

For those asking, my decklist is nothing special, I'll post it but it's the exact list from Bazaar of Moxen but with Mishra replaced with Jitte. My sideboard was completely metagamed for Zoo but I honestly only saw the SB cards twice total in all three Zoo matches.


2-0 against 3 Zoo in a row? Give me some of your magic Merfolk juice!

My success against Zoo was more psychological than deck strategy. I had been playing Texas Hold'em a lot before the tournament so that poker mentality dragged over. Our decks have daze and wasteland, whether we have it in our hand or not we make our opponents play the way we want, to play around those. Even the non-Zoo games in Top8 were some mind-games.
For example in the quarter-finals match against dredge, we were on the third game and my opponent cabal therapied me, after giving my hand back and ending his turn he wanted to know what coralhelm commander did. I gave the card to him and told him that guy is a beast that it won me games against Zoo. When I went to level the commander I had 4 mana free to level him, I didn't just tap all 4 lands at once, I tapped each giving him a chance to respond (which dredge doesn't have any) so I can really put an emphasis him. I attacked with the commander and killed his only flying blocker, a narcomoeba, he was at 1 life and I was at 11 life. I had no blockers and he had perfect lethal with 4 zombie tokens and one ichorid, it didn't look good as I had one out left only, and that was if he punted the game to me by not attacking, which wasn't likely. When it was his turn he could only stare scared at the big flying merfolk, he stuck his hand out for a shake, I was totally confused because he didn't attack, I shook his hand and asked what's up, he says he concedes, I gave him another chance though and asked "are you really conceding?" he says ya he has no way of dealing with the commander, so I shuffle all my cards together and everyone including me tells him he had lethal on me, he asked the judge but is told he already conceded. That was the difference between two underground seas or two scrublands.

Here is my list, but I forgot what my sideboard was since I created it right before the tournament, it should be posted at: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?17783-[Tournament]-June-27-2010-Los-Angeles-CA-Knight-Ware-Inc-20x-Duals

4 Aether Vial
4 Coralhelm Commander
4 Cursecatcher
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merfolk Sovereign
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Silvergill Adept
2 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
1 Jitte
4 Mutavault
4 Wasteland

[DCTopTeam]

@DCTopTeam, I side in Jitte against Zoo for game two almost always (when I have it) the main reason being as a disenchant. Yes, it is hard to connect with it, but if they get one going you are dead. And you can bet that more Zoo decks will be packing them in the future.

I dont run any equipments in Zoo because its just slow. Real slow. I mean, early on you invest 2 to pay it and 2 to equip. You can invest that mana to cast another or two one drop, or another one drop and spot-remove something.

Its kinda easy for Merfolk because it has Vials.

[KraM7]

Hi!

I am new writing in the forum but some time ago that I read it. In last two weekends, I have played the deck doing one top4 in the LCL and one top8 in a shop tournament.

The decklist that i've played is the following one:


13 Island
4 Mutavault
4 Wasteland
4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Merfolk Sovereign
4 Coralhelm Commander
2 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 AEther Vial
1 Rushing River

Sideboard:
3 Mind Harness
1 Threads of Disloyalty
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1 Echoing Truth
3 Spell Pierce

My record in LCL was 5-2-1

Rd 1: UW Fish 2-0
Rd 2: Reanimator 2-1
Rd 3: Supreme blue(teammate, ID) 2-0(we've played for fun)
Rd 4: Mystic Bant 2-0
Rd 5: UGR Control 0-2
Rd 6: UGB control(confidants, jace, consuming vapors, trygons, very nice deck) 2-0
Top8: UGR control 2-1(the same as rd 4)
Top4: UGB Landstill 1-2

The deck is amazing, for this reason i've played in the next saturday tournament. The list was the same except for -1 mind harness +1 seasinger. I want to test this merfolk in sb against reanimator, and in the shop are always 1 o 2, for this reason i put in sb.

My record was 4-2:

Rd 1: New Horizons 2-0
Rd 2: Merfolks 2-1
Rd 3: Mystic Bant 1-2
Rd 4: UGR tempo with terravores 2-0
Rd 5: Reanimator 2-1
Top8: Mystic Bant 1-2

After playing the deck in 2 tournaments and made 2 tops, I have decided to play it in a very big tournament this Saturday. What has not just convinced me is the Rushing river. I have thought about other things as Wipe away, cold-eyed selkie or a threads of disloyalty, because I don't like the mishra's factory of the original list.

Any suggestions?

KraM

[TheyCallMeTim]

After playing the deck in 2 tournaments and made 2 tops, I have decided to play it in a very big tournament this Saturday. What has not just convinced me is the Rushing river. I have thought about other things as Wipe away, cold-eyed selkie or a threads of disloyalty, because I don't like the mishra's factory of the original list.

Any suggestions?

KraM


- 1 Merfolk Sovereign (or Commander) and -1 Rushing River
+2 Wake Thrashers for more aggro
-or-
+2 Jitte for aggro/control
-or-
+2 Echoing Truth (or Wipe Away, B2B, Propaganda) for control

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Scroll Thief :2::u:

Creature - Merfolk Rogue
Whenever Scroll Thief deals combat damage to a player, draw a card.
1/3

Maybe I'm just a little tired of hearing about Cold-Eyed Selkie, but this guy honestly seems strictly-better to me. No double-blue requirement and a fatter ass beats potentially maybe drawing more cards in my book. Oh, and islandwalk. Which is semi-redundant in this deck anyways. I'm not so sure he's actually gonna make it into my 75 any time soon, but I'm glad there's finally a good alternative for people who want an "Ophidian" creature in their Merf deck.

[chokin]

They are the same if there is no Lord out. Both die to Bolt (Zoo is really popular I hear ;) ) With a Lord out, the Bolt always hits the Lord from my experience. With a Lord that lives, Selkie wins.

Double blue is required of Lord of Atlantis and Sovereign and Coralhelm. So I don't see the problem. Maybe as a super budget option? Or if you wanted to play a draw heavy Merfolk deck.

[Hanni]

The point of playing Merfolk is to stomp your blue (Counterbalance) matchups. Cold-Eyed Selkie does that, and in spades. Additional Islandwalk is in fact good, and the ability to draw multiple cards with Selkie from the lord pumps makes it a much better card drawing Merfolk.

The only other matchups where you want card drawing would be against non blue control decks, where the difference between Scroll Thief and Cold Eyed Selkie is mostly irrelevant anyway.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

The point of playing Merfolk is to stomp your blue (Counterbalance) matchups. Cold-Eyed Selkie does that, and in spades. Additional Islandwalk is in fact good, and the ability to draw multiple cards with Selkie from the lord pumps makes it a much better card drawing Merfolk.

The only other matchups where you want card drawing would be against non blue control decks, where the difference between Scroll Thief and Cold Eyed Selkie is mostly irrelevant anyway.

This seems to make sense, I guess I was a little premature to call it better. The main thing I was trying to harp on (yet again), is that Selkie is pretty much unnecessary in this deck, because it only serves to shore up match-ups which are already favorable for us. I'd much rather run Wake Thrasher to help with the aggro match-ups which are actually problematic for us, rather than have yet another card in my deck that beats Counter/Top.

[Hanni]

Just for the record, I wasn't making a case for why I think Cold-Eyed Selkie should be run in the maindeck, I was simply elaborating on what matchups Scroll Thief would be good in, and how Selkie is better in those matchups.

Cold-Eyed Selkie is a great sideboard card against CounterTop and control decks like Landstill, though. I wouldn't play Merfolk unless I expected a big portion of the field to be composed of matchups like that, and Selkie would most definitely be in my sideboard in that case.

[dyzzy]

My friend and I were testing the 16 lord build vs. Zoo and it still gets stomped hard. :frown:
Then again, we only played 3 or 4 games (lack of time) without sideboards, so I don't know if those results are trustworthy.

[danyul]

I've been running the 16 lord list for a little while now and in sanctioned tournaments I'm 0/6 against Zoo. Those are full matches. Not games. Maybe I'm just terrible though. I've only won matches where they had to aggressively mull for land or something. When I lose it's always a blowout. They make 3/3 dudes for 1 mana. I make 2/2 dudes for 3 mana. Also, Steppe Lynx is for jerks.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

The white splash still helps against Zoo. Just don't try to get too cute with it. (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=36719)

[kiblast]

hi everyone, i'd like to know how do you face, running MonoU version, decks like UW tempo, UWB Thopter Tempo, and the mostly feared (by me at least) Death and taxes, both in his MonoW or GW version. A friend of mine plays MonoW D&T and we tested a lot, it seems almost unbeatable for us. And i cant remember of a single sideboard card that can affect his gameplay against us (except maybe for back to basics, or stifles, but who's gonna waste 3-4 slots for 1 MU, seriously?)
I regularly reach top8 with my MonoU version -shown below-, but i simply scoop if i face this kind of deck in top8. I've been playing merfolk for quite a lot and this is the only MU that just feels really unwinnable to me.

12 Island
4 Mutavault
4 Wasteland

4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
3 Merfolk Sovereign
3 Coralhelm Commander
2 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner

4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 AEther Vial
3 Standstill
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Side:

1 Energy flux (great ice breaker with unknown players, have fun)
3 Mind Harness
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Submerge
3 Relic of progenitus
2 Waterfront bouncer (i'm really surprised no one plays em, they win games alone, against stiflenought, Dark Depths, Stalkers, fatties with counters on them...)


any help is welcome!

[mans0011]

I really don't like Jitte in Merfolk. Maybe I'm just old-fashioned or still a bit rusty (I'm only just getting back into Magic). Kira and Jitte have terrible synergy... not to mention that it's a mana/tempo dump. I LOVE Kira, though I've not done much testing with her. She gives our critters so much protection from bolts and swords. If only she could help against Firespout :(

Are you really liking the landstill part of your deck?

I guess with combo slowing down, we might not need to run Spell Pierce main.

[Tru3z3rox]

hi everyone, i'd like to know how do you face, running MonoU version, decks like UW tempo, UWB Thopter Tempo, and the mostly feared (by me at least) Death and taxes, both in his MonoW or GW version. A friend of mine plays MonoW D&T and we tested a lot, it seems almost unbeatable for us. And i cant remember of a single sideboard card that can affect his gameplay against us (except maybe for back to basics, or stifles, but who's gonna waste 3-4 slots for 1 MU, seriously?)
I regularly reach top8 with my MonoU version -shown below-, but i simply scoop if i face this kind of deck in top8. I've been playing merfolk for quite a lot and this is the only MU that just feels really unwinnable to me.

12 Island
4 Mutavault
4 Wasteland

4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
3 Merfolk Sovereign
3 Coralhelm Commander
2 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner

4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 AEther Vial
3 Standstill
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Side:

1 Energy flux (great ice breaker with unknown players, have fun)
3 Mind Harness
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Submerge
3 Relic of progenitus
2 Waterfront bouncer (i'm really surprised no one plays em, they win games alone, against stiflenought, Dark Depths, Stalkers, fatties with counters on them...)


any help is welcome!

Pull the jitte and the standstills for some spell pierce and echoing truth. It helps.

[Tru3z3rox]

I really don't like Jitte in Merfolk. Maybe I'm just old-fashioned or still a bit rusty (I'm only just getting back into Magic). Kira and Jitte have terrible synergy... not to mention that it's a mana/tempo dump. I LOVE Kira, though I've not done much testing with her. She gives our critters so much protection from bolts and swords. If only she could help against Firespout :(

Are you really liking the landstill part of your deck?

I guess with combo slowing down, we might not need to run Spell Pierce main.

Spell Pierce always helps.

[gravemind123]

Having been running Spell Pierce main for a few weeks now(with no Zoo to worry about) I have to say it has been pretty useful in a lot of matchups other than just combo.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

no Zoo to worry about

Must be nice... Do you just have an underdeveloped meta or something, or what exactly is keeping all the Zoo decks down?

[gravemind123]

Must be nice... Do you just have an underdeveloped meta or something, or what exactly is keeping all the Zoo decks down?

The only person who has Zoo finished is me, at least at the moment, I think the people who it fits the playstyle of don't have the money and the people who have the money for it don't like the style of Zoo. As far as development, the budget players play either Merfolk or Dredge(although they are starting to get better cards and make more decks) and the other people run a huge array of things, but none of them built Zoo.

The current list I play is very tuned to beat combo and control as I see more of that than aggro, but here it is if anyone is interested

13 Island
3 Mutavault
3 Wasteland

4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
3 Wake Thrasher
2 Kira, Great Glass Spinner

4 Aether Vial
4 Standstill

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Spell Pierce

I have a very good matchup against combo with this list, and also do pretty well against control after swapping Jitte/Echoing Truth slots for Kira maindeck. I usually have some graveyard hate in the sideboard to use against dredge and some Echoing Truth to deal with things like Humility, Ghostly Prison, Chalice, etc...

I have tried cutting Standstill, but in my metagame it is just the wrong choice, it is very good against TES and control strategies and I can board it out against decks it isn't quite as good at, like the mirror match.

Also, has anyone else tested out Ravenous Trap against Dredge? I think it is my favorite piece of hate against them, it has won me more games than Relic or Crypt have.

[kiblast]

I really don't like Jitte in Merfolk. Maybe I'm just old-fashioned or still a bit rusty (I'm only just getting back into Magic). Kira and Jitte have terrible synergy... not to mention that it's a mana/tempo dump. I LOVE Kira, though I've not done much testing with her. She gives our critters so much protection from bolts and swords. If only she could help against Firespout :(

Are you really liking the landstill part of your deck?

I guess with combo slowing down, we might not need to run Spell Pierce main.

standstill has always worked perfectly for me. I think 3 is the perfect number, because i dont want to see it more than once, since if i see it once and i'm boarded nicely, i'll drop it, otherwise pitches to FoW. I always side em out against mirror, vial goblins, and UW Tempo / D&T builds, siding in the second jitte and maybe 1-2 bouncers.

Kira + Jitte has been discussed a lot, i think that althought not very synergystic its not a good reason to cut Jitte. Jitte wins every games i menage to resolve one. I mean, if we can't race our opponent by turn 4-5, and something is going wrong, we always got jitte to deal with mid/late game situations, and in mid/late game ( i mean by turn 6+) you'll always (90% of the time) hit the 4th mana to drop and equip. Now that we have coralhelm, wich is the best to carry jitte over enemy lines, i think it's just stupid not to run 2 between MD/SB Imho.


Pull the jitte and the standstills for some spell pierce and echoing truth. It helps.

Maybe we should only go for a very aggro clock, counter their vial through Fow, Pierce is a nice addition, Daze is almost useless as everybody on the draw would cast t1 vial against us...and then bounce their SoFaI to clear a blocker. Win by turn 4/5. I mean, it IS possible, but very, very difficult to accomplish. You dont always get godhand...i'm looking for something more focused against these kind of decks, something that would be a pain in the ass just like Firespout. And keep in mind that if we dont counter their first vial, drawing all those Pierce mid game is useless.

[Boots]

As I am planning to play in some upcoming tournaments in my area I was tooling around with a fish build with folks I commonly test with and was coming here to get some more advice.
One big question I have is how generally people sideboard for differing match ups, mainly things like Zoo, NO bant, and faeries.
From testing I am less inspired by Mutavault a lot of the time. Goblins is very rare in our meta as well.
The list I was looking at is as follows:

Lands - 20
8 Island
4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
1 Plains

Spells and artifacts - 16
4 Aether Vial
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares

Creatures - 24
4 Curse Catcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Coralhelm commander
4 Merrow Reejery
2 Kira, Great Glass Spinner
2 Merfolk Sovereign

Sideboard
2 Path to Exile
4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Propaganda
3 Back to Basics
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
3 Other cards, possibly counter magic?

[Aggro_zombies]

Lands - 20
8 Island
4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
1 Plains

Spells and artifacts - 16
4 Aether Vial
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares

Creatures - 24
4 Curse Catcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Coralhelm commander
4 Merrow Reejery
2 Kira, Great Glass Spinner
2 Merfolk Sovereign

Sideboard
2 Path to Exile
4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Propaganda
3 Back to Basics
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
3 Other cards, possibly counter magic?
I think you have three options for the 3 open sideboard slots: BEB/Hydroblast, Dispel, and Pithing Needle. Each are useful in different places:

BEB/Hydroblast stop burn spells and can get rid of problem cards like Grim Lavamancer, but they are extremely narrow outside of that role. You're not really afraid of Firespout because of how many lords you run, and Kira gives you partial protection from burn. Unless there's tons of burn in your meta, these are probably not that great.

Dispel stops most burn, targeted removal like Swords, and other random cards (Entomb, Ad Nauseam, Enlightened Tutor, other counters), but is also kind of narrow. It may be better than Daze in matchups where you don't want to set yourself back on lands (New Horizons, for example).

Needle is just a random utility card that's good to have.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

I think you have three options for the 3 open sideboard slots: BEB/Hydroblast, Dispel, and Pithing Needle. Each are useful in different places:

BEB/Hydroblast stop burn spells and can get rid of problem cards like Grim Lavamancer, but they are extremely narrow outside of that role. You're not really afraid of Firespout because of how many lords you run, and Kira gives you partial protection from burn. Unless there's tons of burn in your meta, these are probably not that great.

Dispel stops most burn, targeted removal like Swords, and other random cards (Entomb, Ad Nauseam, Enlightened Tutor, other counters), but is also kind of narrow. It may be better than Daze in matchups where you don't want to set yourself back on lands (New Horizons, for example).

Needle is just a random utility card that's good to have.

I kind of disagree with how you minimize the effectiveness of Hydroblast. Granted it's a little narrow, because red just takes up its proportionate chunk of the metagame (maybe a little less than 1/5 actually), but all the cards you mentioned are a huge problem for us. To get around Firespout, we need no less than three lords on the table (putting each of them at 4 toughness). Grim Lavamancer almost singlehandedly beats this deck. Lightning Bolt on a lord is usually a huge pain in the ass. Etc.

Granted, it's a somewhat narrow piece of hate, but in an unknown meta, IMO, these are the things we need to be hating. Mind Harness is also a reasonable alternative, since there's a fair amount of overlap in the problems it takes care of, although you're basically addressing the creatures rather than the damage-based removal. Still though, it hates two colors rather than one. And on the cheap.

EDIT: Also, since Boots mentioned he might want to run countermagic in these slots, Spell Pierce should probably be mentioned.

[chokin]

BEB and Hydroblast are fine choices for the reasons you mentioned, DDK. The Blasts do also offer up a solution to the format's most popular sweeper for U.

Why wouldn't you want to run Threads instead of Harness? They are both narrow in their own ways, but Threads only eats your mana one time, where Harness gets more and more taxing.

Spell Pierce is pretty awesome, and I usually run 2-3 in my 75 of a lot of blue based decks. It answers a lot more relevant cards than Dispel does that could be a pain for this deck (Moat, Choke, Planeswalkers, etc). While Pierce isn't a hard counter, it can still push an opponent's plans off by two turns. Dispel is better against removal mid to late game though. Divert is kind of an in between of those two and randomly you can 2 for 1 opponents. But sadly, it is even more narrow because it's almost always going to be removal only, where Dispel can still hit Brainstorm and other instants.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

BEB and Hydroblast are fine choices for the reasons you mentioned, DDK. The Blasts do also offer up a solution to the format's most popular sweeper for U.

Why wouldn't you want to run Threads instead of Harness? They are both narrow in their own ways, but Threads only eats your mana one time, where Harness gets more and more taxing.



Basically, I recommended Harness instead of Threads, because he specifically mentioned wanting to improve the Zoo matchup. I haven't tested much recently, but the theory is that stealing their creature earlier is good because they tend to come out of the gates so much quicker than us. If you can manage the heat they apply during the first few turns, your outlook for the match is gonna be better. Usually you're gonna treat the creature you steal as an expendable resource anyways, since you're just trying to sneak in damage/ set up a 2-for-1, so if you can just force them to dead their own creature asap, I would think the cumulative upkeep wouldn't end up eating too much tempo. I certainly have been known to misread data before though, so who knows.

Another point however, is that by the time you have the :1::u::u: for Threads, your hand is going to be somewhat emptied out anyways, and you can probably afford to sit there and soak up some mana paying the upkeep if you need to. Anyhow, this is basically just theorycraft.

[chokin]

Goyf is likely the best creature you can steal from them early on. Otherwise, you're stuck with a 1/1 (Ape, Nacatl, Lavamancer) or at best a 2/2 exalted. And keeping the Harness on is exhausting your mana that you could be using to develop your own board. That is unless you just steal them for a turn and let Harness fall off, in which case, why wouldn't you just run bounce and make them replay their threats? I imagine Echoing Truth could randomly 2 for 1 bounce. I don't know, maybe I'm not seeing the logic behind Harness clearly.

[Aggro_zombies]

Spell Pierce is pretty awesome, and I usually run 2-3 in my 75 of a lot of blue based decks. It answers a lot more relevant cards than Dispel does that could be a pain for this deck (Moat, Choke, Planeswalkers, etc). While Pierce isn't a hard counter, it can still push an opponent's plans off by two turns. Dispel is better against removal mid to late game though. Divert is kind of an in between of those two and randomly you can 2 for 1 opponents. But sadly, it is even more narrow because it's almost always going to be removal only, where Dispel can still hit Brainstorm and other instants.
I'm not sure overloading on soft counters is what this deck wants to do. You're not fast enough, and you don't have enough mana denial, to make tons of soft counters relevant - they're good in the first few turns, yes, but most of the scary spells for this deck are pretty cheap, and anything not running islands is going to be able to interact with you much more in combat. Most decks with planeswalkers are blue, so you should be able to deal with them much better than something like Zoo or combo.

If Negate cost one and had a drawback (like bounce an Island or something), it would be the perfect card. As it is, I think there are slightly more must-counter instants than must-counter sorceries, and I like to have hard counters in those situations. You can deal with artifacts and planeswalkers with Pithing Needles, which you should have anyway (IMO).

I mean, I don't think Merfolk is that great overall, but I think you'd benefit more from having specialized hard counters than just tons of soft ones.

[Tru3z3rox]

Goyf is likely the best creature you can steal from them early on. Otherwise, you're stuck with a 1/1 (Ape, Nacatl, Lavamancer) or at best a 2/2 exalted. And keeping the Harness on is exhausting your mana that you could be using to develop your own board. That is unless you just steal them for a turn and let Harness fall off, in which case, why wouldn't you just run bounce and make them replay their threats? I imagine Echoing Truth could randomly 2 for 1 bounce. I don't know, maybe I'm not seeing the logic behind Harness clearly.

Not true. In my testing I've always been stuck with a threads in my hand while a KOTR, Terravore, or CC is beating me to death. I really prefer Mind Harness because you can beat them down with their huge creature for a turn or two and then finish the job with your lords if you have to.

[Boots]

To boil it down a bit more, for the areas larger tournaments we sit around 2-4 Merfolk decks, 1-3 Zoo, 0-1 Goblins, 1-3 Storm combo, 0-3 Lands, 0-2 Faeries, and tons of Bant colored decks, split between Horizons and NO Bant. And I suppose some counter top decks, but less than there was. Oh, and new tech for us are Hypergenesis builds.

Spell Pierce seems more universally useful, though I can see the argument made for REB. The storm decks in the area are usually defaulting to TES builds.

[kiblast]

Not true. In my testing I've always been stuck with a threads in my hand while a KOTR, Terravore, or CC is beating me to death. I really prefer Mind Harness because you can beat them down with their huge creature for a turn or two and then finish the job with your lords if you have to.

I agree. MH is just perfect in this role, as it turns your extra wastelands and Mutavaults in extra turns beating with a 5/6.
It's also very useful if you dropped an early Vial, as you can drop EOT Lords,beat with em AND with something else in your turn,keeping down the lifepoint of your opponent, say, for 3-4 turns, til they got back their goyf when its too late.
Plus, you can start borrowing creatures by turn 2-3, wich is great if you dont have enough critters to cast.

Last: PtE on your/their goyf/KOTR/Terravore/random beater. The next MH i draw will beat hard.

[kiblast]

SIDEBOARD:
4 Engineered Plague
3 Agony Warp
3 Death Mark
3 Relic of Prog
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1 Wipe Away/Echoing Truth

Anyways, what are your thoughts on the black splash? I can understand how you would say white is better, but I really am liking black right now. Also, I only have Seas....no tundras =(


IMHO splashing black > splashing withe. for ALL the reasons you posted above, though i'm not feeling Agony Warp....i see its potential to do a 2x1...but i just dont like it.Maybe i'd rather go with diabolics to deal with marit lage/progenitus.

[Dino]

Did people stop running gofys in their merfolk decks? having green for grip in the board seems really good too. Or is the new level up lord better?

[FoulQ]

IMHO splashing black > splashing withe. for ALL the reasons you posted above, though i'm not feeling Agony Warp....i see its potential to do a 2x1...but i just dont like it.Maybe i'd rather go with diabolics to deal with marit lage/progenitus.

I disagree. Splashing withe is very hard to do since they have yet to print the blue/withe dual land, or even a withe fetch. In fact, withe isn't even a color and has 0 cards in magic the gathering. So I think splashing black is better IMHO.



Did people stop running gofys in their merfolk decks? having green for grip in the board seems really good too. Or is the new level up lord better?

People have never ran gofys in merfolk, sorry.

[Sims]

People have never ran gofys in merfolk, sorry.

You lie.

[lordofthepit]

You lie.

No, the man is just on a spelling Nazi trip.

[Azdraël]

Diminish>>>>> Agony Warp

[Hanni]

Doom Blade > Agony Warp

[kiblast]

I disagree. Splashing withe is very hard to do since they have yet to print the blue/withe dual land, or even a withe fetch. In fact, withe isn't even a color and has 0 cards in magic the gathering. So I think splashing black is better IMHO.

People have never ran gofys in merfolk, sorry.

yeah, i'm sorry. late night+ some 66 heinekens + a bit sleepy. Oh, they should really print some tarmogoofys, at least in their next UN-something set.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

God, but it's great to see the conversation in this thread stay so consistently on-track. :wink:

[kihachi]

I'm putting together a Merfolk build for Columbus as we speak. Basically, I'm going to be the guy (one of many, I'm sure) that shows up without having tested and gets completely rolled over. But it's gonna be fun anyways. To the point...

I'll probably be bringing the mono-U 16 lords build, just like Alex Bertoncini's, since it's proven and I don't have time to test. But I have no idea what to put in the sideboard. For those of you who have played with Mind Harness, is the upkeep too taxing or are you winning before it becomes an issue? It seems like a good way to deal with goyfs + red stuff. Sowers might be a bad option since they can bolt it for a 2 for 1 of sorts, but I do have them, so would those be workable? Threads might be better, but like others have said it misses larger non-goyf dudes, and can still be offed with a Pridemage or Grip. How do these answers compare to Submerge, which is more of a tempo move, but can always respond to a fetchland to kill a goyf? Sorry for all the questions, I just haven't played much with any of these cards, and I thought the topic could return to SB discussion.

Finally, I'd like to know peoples' thoughts about how many Zoo/Goyf answers are needed in the SB (in a 16 lords deck that plays Kira MB), versus more general answers like Back to Basics, Propaganda and and Spell Pierce (not in the MB) or other hosers like BEB or Llawan. Thanks!

[mans0011]

I really like Kira. I've not had a chance to play her, really. But man... I remember her from the days of Kamigawa Standard and she was awesome. Also, I like Thada Adel in the sideboard.

[4eak]

If it isn't already, (and if the deck is going to survive, which I'm not even sure about yet ) I believe Kira is likely to become a staple for the deck.

Where do you want to bring in Thada Adel? Possible targets that I'm actually interested in by the time I can connect with Thada (turn 4 earliest):


Engineered Explosives
Vedalken Shackles
Umezawa's Jitte
Sword of the Meek (almost always a singleton)


These are mostly defensive picks, so they can't use it against me. These cards are primarily used in decks which are often already decent matchups though (Jitte being the occasional exception); Cold-Eyed Selkie is generally just flat out better in these cases; I'm most worried about Zoo; let's hope blue-based dedicated control decks increase in viability and pwn Zoo's face.



peace,
4eak

[mans0011]

Hmm, you make a good point. Selkie is the hawtness.

I agree, Thada is mostly just cute. Selkie, on the other hand, when combined with Kira and all of our Lords/unblockable/island walking, etc can be REALLY dangerous to our opponent.

Are you looking at putting Selkie main or putting her in the side to swap out with Daze/Force/Pierce in Zoo?

[4eak]

Are you looking at putting Selkie main or putting her in the side to swap out with Daze/Force/Pierce in Zoo?

Neither at the moment. I said Selkie was better than Thada, but I didn't say Selkie was worth playing either. The point is that, for now, neither card improves the matchups I am most worried about. At this point, I'm willing to lose ground against opposing blue decks (to some extent) to gain ground against Red and Green based aggro decks. If we are to assume that the deck should evolve to beat many non-blue decks (particularly Zoo), Selkie (and thus Thada) are completely out of the question.

If, however, blue-based dedicated control actually becomes a top contender (I'm not holding my breath), or if bad matchups like Zoo truly destabilize the the presence of blue-based decks in the general metagame (thus making Merfolk a purely specific metagame deck in undeveloped or skewed metagames--like much of the Established Forum), then Selkie may become a reasonable choice. We basically need to see a lot more or a lot less Islands in the overall metagame for Selkie to become a viable card.



peace,
4eak

[Malakai]

Diminish>>>>> Agony Warp

What? How the hell did this become the topic? Agony Warp. Someone was going to splash fucking black for Agony Warp? The mind reels. Do keep in mind the Threads of Disloyalty, Control Magic, and Submerge all exist.

I do love this thread though. It's the only one on the source pushing 200 pages without accomplishing anything.

[Curby]

If we're splashing black, wouldn't Perish help a lot? It gets rid of Zoo's biggest threats. There's still the burn component of their decks to worry about, but it's still a many-for-one trade. Also useful against the odd Elf deck and Progenitus. What cards besides blue blasts do people currently use against Zoo? If Zoo's the biggest reason for Blue blasts and you're splashing black anyway, Perish might be a better choice. That's not to say that you should splash black just for Perish but it's an idea for those already thinking about it.

[kiblast]

What? How the hell did this become the topic? Agony Warp. Someone was going to splash fucking black for Agony Warp? The mind reels. Do keep in mind the Threads of Disloyalty, Control Magic, and Submerge all exist.

I do love this thread though. It's the only one on the source pushing 200 pages without accomplishing anything.

the point was that maybe splashing black>splashing white. BUT monoU>UB>UW.
Thada adel will be nice after Scars of Mirrodin, when (maybe) we will have new Stax, 5/3 aggro builds, and so on.Now is almost useless and not worth 1-2 slots in sb.However, i suggest buying a set.
Selkie is useless. Improves MU we dont need to be improved.

[Malakai]

I recently cut Standstills, following the example of a couple people/decklists that placed well at large SCG tournaments. I was a doubter of the 16 lords plan, but playing with them feels extremely strong--definitely the way to go.

Anyway, cutting Standstills has caused me to look at the rest of the cards in the deck, so my question is this:

In order to increase our game against Zoo et. al. and the mirror, do you think cutting Cursecatchers from the main and replacing them with more relevant cards could be the answer?

Some example cards:
Equipment
Kira
Control Magic
Spell Snare
Spell Pierce
Stifle
Redirect
Cosi's Trickster
Sejiri Merfolk
Either Sygg
...Tarmogoyf?

[Tru3z3rox]

I recently cut Standstills, following the example of a couple people/decklists that placed well at large SCG tournaments. I was a doubter of the 16 lords plan, but playing with them feels extremely strong--definitely the way to go.

Anyway, cutting Standstills has caused me to look at the rest of the cards in the deck, so my question is this:

In order to increase our game against Zoo et. al. and the mirror, do you think cutting Cursecatchers from the main and replacing them with more relevant cards could be the answer?

Some example cards:
Equipment
Kira
Control Magic
Spell Snare
Spell Pierce
Stifle
Redirect
Cosi's Trickster
Sejiri Merfolk
Either Sygg
...Tarmogoyf?

Cursecatchers are our best turn 1 plays aside from dropping a vial. Nothing can really replace it and anyway I already run 2 Kira in the main. The only other thing I can think of that would come close is Cosi's Trickster, but even that is underwhelming most of the time. Just because combo is on a downturn doesn't mean we should punt the matchup.

[Tru3z3rox]

I recently cut Standstills, following the example of a couple people/decklists that placed well at large SCG tournaments. I was a doubter of the 16 lords plan, but playing with them feels extremely strong--definitely the way to go.

Anyway, cutting Standstills has caused me to look at the rest of the cards in the deck, so my question is this:

In order to increase our game against Zoo et. al. and the mirror, do you think cutting Cursecatchers from the main and replacing them with more relevant cards could be the answer?

Some example cards:
Equipment
Kira
Control Magic
Spell Snare
Spell Pierce
Stifle
Redirect
Cosi's Trickster
Sejiri Merfolk
Either Sygg
...Tarmogoyf?

Cursecatchers are our best turn 1 plays aside from dropping a vial. Nothing can really replace it and anyway I already run 2 Kira in the main. The only other thing I can think of that would come close is Cosi's Trickster, but even that is underwhelming most of the time. Just because combo is on a downturn doesn't mean we should punt the matchup.

[Curby]

I guess the thing to do is first consider how to best attack the Zoo MU. Do we go for broad sweepers and big moves (e.g. the Perish idea I had suggested above for the Black splash) or do we go for cheap point removal, e.g. Mind Harness, Submerge, StP for the White splash, etc. It was said in the past that the StP+PtE plan was our best bet at beating Zoo, but everyone plays mono-blue now in spite of Zoo being the most popular deck in competitive Legacy. What has changed to make people drop white even when one of our worst MUs is also one of the most likely?

I think Kira is an awesome choice for the MU, given that she just about guarantees a 2-for-1 exchange. At the same time, she's enough of a lightning rod that playing 3-4 copies of her isn't a problem even though she's a Legend: Zoo will want to get rid of her anyway unless you're so far behind that they can just aim everything at your head and attack through your guys. The biggest problems are the 3-mana cost and the fact that she can't save you if you're really far behind, as described above.

[owenzzz]

Hi,

I was currently reviewing my decklist and I would like to ask if Back to Basics will be a good SB plan? This would definitely slowdown Zoo due to dual land dependency. Is there someone who already did this?

Splashing black will give me access to both Smother, Perish and Engineered Plague (GOBLINS). but I need to put fetchlands and prone to Wasteland effect. Is there someone who have tested this build??

Thanks

[Curby]

Pretty much every Zoo list runs one of each basic land, so you may slow them down a little but it's hardly a rout. I just wish Blue had something better than Hibernation or Acid Rain for hosing Green.

[(nameless one)]

I do love this thread though. It's the only one on the source pushing 200 pages without accomplishing anything.

At least it is not as bad as 80 pages of trolling (you know which Established Deck I'm talking about).

Back the Merfolks:

I noticed that a lot of Merfolk lists have resorted to 16+ lords (and ultimately cutting Standstills). This pretty much ends the Standstill-lists for merfolks.

Now the question is: what happens when all these board control decks start popping out to beat Zoo/Goblins and the rest of the aggro world? Keep in mind, board control decks also gained a lot with the shafting of Combo decks. Even then, there are still viable combo decks out there that were not affected with the post-tutor bannings. Are we hastily switching our maindecks to accomodate our needs to beat these forementioned aggro-decks?

Would the old Standstill-lists be reincarnated to beat these board control decks? Granted, these old lists aren't as effective against Lands.dec but there are other board control decks out there that might just start busting out (such as Enchantress, Aggro-loam, Rock, Staxx and Quinn).

I am not saying that these 16+ lord lists are going the wrong way but have you guys ever tested your decks against format's Board Control decks?

Have we really not accomplished anything?

[Rood]

I know it goes against the gameplan of Vial, but against Zoo what about something like
-4 Vial
+4 EE

EE gives you a huge sweeper for all their 1 drops considering Merfolk only runs 4 Cursecatchers I can't see it being that much of a problem.
Perish is too narrow IMO it doesn't even answer Lynx, Mancer, Ape, etc. Also could use Spell Pierces/Divert along side the EEs

[Curby]

I know that Perish misses some critters: it only attacks one of their three colors so it's bound to. That said, I'd rather face a Kird Ape than a Tarmogoyf. I'd rather face a Lynx than a KotR. It also kills Pridemages and Nacatls, the dangerous Bant critters (or even all of them?), Progenitus, and Elves. It's far from perfect, but it seems damn good... if you're splashing anyway. Most people don't splash black, and it's almost certainly not worth splashing black JUST for Perish.

EDIT: You said to remove Vial. OK then.

[Malakai]

After almost 8 hours of testing, I'm going with the mana denial plan. -4 Cursecatcher, +4 Stifle, as well as Kira/Jitte split in the "flex slots," in 16-lord non-Standstill merfolk.

I love how that perfectly explains my list.

[sadface]

I noticed that a lot of Merfolk lists have resorted to 16+ lords.

More than 16 lords? Do they have some super secret tech that I am unaware of or are they simply cheating?

[(nameless one)]

More than 16 lords? Do they have some super secret tech that I am unaware of or are they simply cheating?

16+ lords = 4 Lord of Atlantis/4 Merrow Reejerey/4 Merfolk Sovereign/4 Coralhelm Commander/X Kira (I somehow count Kira as a lord)

[SlopeeJ]

After almost 8 hours of testing, I'm going with the mana denial plan. -4 Cursecatcher, +4 Stifle, as well as Kira/Jitte split in the "flex slots," in 16-lord non-Standstill merfolk.

I love how that perfectly explains my list.

Not having cursecatcher is really going to hurt your blue matchups including the mirror due to losing the counter/daze wars. Also really hurts you vs the black discard decks and combo decks.

I'm not sure of what you were testing in those "8" hours of testing, but I would be interested to know what matchups you tested and how you came to the conclusion that cutting cursecatcher is a good idea

[Malakai]

Not having cursecatcher is really going to hurt your blue matchups including the mirror due to losing the counter/daze wars. Also really hurts you vs the black discard decks and combo decks.

I'm not sure of what you were testing in those "8" hours of testing, but I would be interested to know what matchups you tested and how you came to the conclusion that cutting cursecatcher is a good idea

Who loses blue matchups with merfolk?

I was testing Zoo and Goblins. Stifle makes both of these matchups winnable.

[DCTopTeam]

The Merfolk-Zoo MU depends on the Zoo build- Lynx or non-Lynx. Were running Berton fish right now and its a pretty even MU with Zoo right now (me Zoo, my brother Fish). The 3rd turn Kira is pretty much so back breaking for Zoo. Commander is a house against Zoo also.

[dyzzy]

Ok, so bear with me for a second while I prove how much I suck.

I was thinking about reconsidering Cosi's Trickster. Here is my reasoning:

1) The current trend in Merfolk is to increase threat density. That's why the Berton build runs 16 lords and a Mishra's Factory. One card in particular that stands out is Coralhelm Commander. Why? Because he doesn't need any lords in order to become huge. He can threaten the game by himself. Now consider what recent Zoo lists are running: Steppe Lynx and KotR. What kind of strategy does this promote? Tons and tons of fetching. So you drop this guy early, with all the fetching that Zoo is doing, he's bound to get huge. Lacks the evasion that Coralhelm has, but hey you didn't have to pump 4/6 mana into it. Plus, that's what Sovereign is for.

2) Why Trickster and not Wake Thrasher if you want to add another beater? (1) He costs 1, which is a pretty sweet deal when you have 10 other 3-drops. (2) He doesn't shrink every turn, which means he can actually block and he won't randomly die to bolt.

3) One thing I noticed about Coralhelm is his ability to act as a lightning rod. You put Zoo into a lose-lose situation: either kill the huge guy and risk letting the lords live and make everything else big, or kill the lord and risk losing to the one huge guy. Of course, in the case of Trickster, his lack of evasion doesn't have quite the same effect, but it's similar.

4) Again, he only costs 1. Zoo's turn 1 play is gonna be a 3/3 or a 2/3-4/5. Your current options for turn 1 are... a 1/1 Daze. Trickster is something you can play on turn 1 that actually means something against Zoo.

I know it's been lackluster against Zoo in the past, but I feel that with the current technology of 16 lords.dec and Coralhelm Commander, there might be a way to make it work. I think it might be worth testing.

Okay, I think I'll stop being bad at this game now.

[Hanni]

I've been testing a build that runs 16 lords and Tidal Courier. The increase in threat density and more pump effects has made Tidal Courier and attractive option, IMO. Cutting Standstill's for Tidal Courier not only gives the deck a non-conditional draw engine, it gives the deck additional bodies.

I have not tested this against Zoo yet, which clearly the Kira build would be better against because of all of their removal. However, I did just 2-1 Goblins with this list.

In game 1, he had a double Vial start to my single Vial start, but I was the beatdown because he had no cheap Goblins to play early. He eventually got 2 Goblin Piledriver's in play, but I had way too many lords in play for it to matter (all of my guys were huge). Needless to say, I won game 1 and he had 2 Piledriver's in play.

I lost game 2 due to me never seeing any Islands and drawing 4 Daze's (although I did get to pitch 1 to a FoW). I did have a Vial, but Lightning Crafter owned my face in this one.

In game 3, neither of us had a Vial. He had an early Pryokensis + Gempalm Incinerator for my Lord of Atlantis and Merrow Reejerey. I played back to back Tidal Courier's to refill my hand, and just like in game 1, I ended up with alot of big guys on board and he simply couldn't compete.

Now, this was just one 2/3 game set of course, which is too small of a sample size to truly evaluate. However, I did just 2-1 Goblins and I didn't have a sideboard built. That's right, I played all 3 games with the stock list (no sideboarding), and he was sideboarded in games 2 and 3 (Pyrokenisis was all I saw).

I'm not sure what this does for the Zoo matchup, but I don't see why drawing multiple creatures with Tidal Courier when you're behind against Zoo would be bad. Rather than blank their removal with Kira (which is probably the better plan, don't get me wrong), I just refill my hand with more Merfolk than they have removal. Eventually some good Merfolk's are gonna stick.

Just for reference:

Merfolk

Lands (21)
14 Island
4 Wasteland
3 Mutavault

Creatures (28)
4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Coralhelm Commander
4 Merfolk Sovereign
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Tidal Courier

Spells (11)
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 AEther Vial

I know one immediate criticism will be that there are not enough Merfolks to run Tidal Courier, but if you compare the Goblin lists that run 4 Aether Vial, 3 Lightning Bolt, and 23 Lands, this deck only has 2 less Merfolk than they have Goblins, yet they still run Ringleader just fine. Usually, I'm averaging 2 Merfolk per Tidal Courier. During some goldfishing, I whiffed one time, getting 0 Merfolk with Tidal Courier, but put a whole bunch of useless lands/Dazes to bottom (was a good thing). Usually, if you're capable of casting Tidal Courier, you don't want to see any more Vials, land, or Dazes, so even when you're drawing 1-2 Merfolk, you're still increasing the quality of your draws tremendously.

I've been pleased so far, figured I'd share it with you guys. I'd like to test the Zoo matchup soon, but to be honest, I think the whole reason to play Merfolk is to beat a field of blue (metagame deck). If I knew the field was going to be dominantly Zoo, I just wouldn't play this deck.

EDIT: I just tossed a sideboard together, so I figured I'd include it with the list.

Sideboard (15)
4 Cold-Eyed Selkie
4 Mind Harness
4 Spell Pierce
3 Relic of Progenitus

The Selkies come in against anything blue (the reason I'd play this deck in the first place). The Mind Harness comes in against Zoo and other green aggro like New Horizons. Spell Pierce comes in against combo and control. The Relic's are just for whatever randomness, from Dredge to Lands. It's not a finalized sideboard by any means, and it might be a good idea for it to include Kira's for the Zoo matchup instead of (or in addition to) the Mind Harness. Like I said, I just figured I'd post the sideboard I just made for it since I posted the list above without one.

EDIT 2: Actually, with combo being lessened because of Mystical Tutor, I'm curious if moving the Force of Wills to the sideboard would be a good idea. That would open up even more space for increased threat density, which should not only improve the Zoo matchup (FoW is horrible there, more creatures is good there), but seems like it would improve all of the matchups but combo. Even against control, you still have Wasteland/Daze/Cursecatcher, which is more disruptive than what Goblins has, yet you maintain the card advantage engine with Silvergill and Courier. I'm thinking dropping 4 FoW for 3 Wake Thrasher and the 4th Mutavault could be really good, with the FoW's going into the sideboard. This is speculative, but I'm curious how a build like this would fare in the new metagame. The deck becomes alot more like Goblins, except you have some strong advantages over Goblins, like Islandwalk/evasion and soft counters MD/hard counters SB. Plus, you know, way more lords so your guys are much larger (which also beats E Plague), and flying to beat the random Moat. You lose out on removal, but make up for that with all of the evasion and larger creature size, and gain Daze/Cursecatcher to improve control/combo with FoW/Pierce in the board to make those matchups even better postboard.

[owenzzz]

Thanks for bringing Cosi Trickster's pro's. Can we use this as a replacement for Cursecatcher since this is more on the aggro route. Cursecatcher is good being a control but if we want to speed up the clock for merfolk, this would be a better addition.

The comparison between this and coralhelm is also good. but you only trigger coralhelm's ability when you have a excess mana. I also have a situation in which i just left this at 2/2 since im using my muta for attack and this will be better than doin a level up..

Most of the deck nowadays is having 6 to 8 fetches which is also considerably good matchup for cosi. Any additional feedback if the play with cosi trickster is good.

Thanks!

[Hanni]

Thanks for bringing Cosi Trickster's pro's. Can we use this as a replacement for Cursecatcher since this is more on the aggro route. Cursecatcher is good being a control but if we want to speed up the clock for merfolk, this would be a better addition.

The comparison between this and coralhelm is also good. but you only trigger coralhelm's ability when you have a excess mana. I also have a situation in which i just left this at 2/2 since im using my muta for attack and this will be better than doin a level up..

Most of the deck nowadays is having 6 to 8 fetches which is also considerably good matchup for cosi. Any additional feedback if the play with cosi trickster is good.

Thanks!

While you continue to try and strengthen a bad matchup, you weaken what was a good matchup. At a certain point, the matchup that used to be good is going to not be so good. Cursecatcher is amazing against control decks, which will be much harder for you to deal with with less card advantage (Standstill) and less disruption (Cursecatcher).

[(nameless one)]

Would Cosi's Trickster be a good sideboard option then?

I have a feeling that shes either on main or not at all option.

I haven't really touched merfolk in a while (due to the prevelance of Zoo in my meta). I will try to playtest Hanni's proposed list and see if I do with it.

[Hanni]

I haven't really touched merfolk in a while (due to the prevelance of Zoo in my meta). I will try to playtest Hanni's proposed list and see if I do with it.


My list is just experimental. And to be honest, I'm actually playtesting a version without Force of Wills right now. I think making the deck more like Goblins (higher threat density) gives the deck a better matchup against aggro decks (Goblins, Zoo), and I think that it doesn't sacrifice much, if any, against the blue decks to drop FoW. I think the only matchup that FoW was really good against was the combo matchup, which seems to be less relevant without Mystical Tutor, making FoW better off in the sideboard.

Keep in mind, this is experimental. Meaning, I'm going against the grain and thinking outside the box and taking a risk that may end up getting myself called a noob.

I hate to be "that guy," but I'm going to post the FoW-less list that I've been ravaging people with on MWS:

// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
6 [UNH] Island
3 [A] Tundra
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [SHM] Cursecatcher
4 [LRW] Silvergill Adept
3 [WWK] Sejiri Merfolk
1 [LRW] Sygg, River Guide
4 [TSB] Lord of Atlantis
4 [ROE] Coralhelm Commander
4 [M10] Merfolk Sovereign
4 [LRW] Merrow Reejerey
4 [AP] Tidal Courier

// Spells
3 [NE] Daze
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 4 [6E] Serenity
SB: 4 [HOP] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

The deck has been absolutely brutal. I played a Goblins list a few years ago that splashed blue for 3 Daze, instead of black for Cabal Therapy (which was popular at the time) to try and improve the combo matchup while improving other matchups. I really enjoyed the build, but it was difficult consistently having U on turn 1 for Daze, and it left the deck vulnerable to early Wastelands. Being already in blue with Merfolk, that pretty much fixes the issue I had with it in Goblins, where it was actually really good in the deck. That's essentially what this list feels like, except I think Merfolk are much stronger because of all the evasion and pump effects.

The sideboard is a mess; I decided to go with Jitte against opposing aggro because my threat density is high enough to abuse it, and it should be easier to cast without tempo loss (cast and equip in the same turn) since I run 22 lands vs the normal 19-20.

Tidal Courier has easily been MVP for me in several matches now, quite a few times grabbing me 3-4 Merfolk's a cast, essentially refilling my hand completely. I'm not sold on Wake Thrasher at all, it has been rather lackluster in testing so far.

EDIT: Ultimately decided on a white splash for Sejiri (but unfortunately no Mutavault's).

[(nameless one)]

My list is just experimental. And to be honest, I'm actually playtesting a version without Force of Wills right now. I think making the deck more like Goblins (higher threat density) gives the deck a better matchup against aggro decks (Goblins, Zoo), and I think that it doesn't sacrifice much, if any, against the blue decks to drop FoW. I think the only matchup that FoW was really good against was the combo matchup, which seems to be less relevant without Mystical Tutor, making FoW better off in the sideboard.


I was just gonna talk about going FoW-less (and even Daze-less). My reason is tempo lost. Yes, tempo lost.

Think about it, losing a card or a land drop to a permission, is it worth it? With the apparent meta going aggro, can we really race other decks by stop a spell that would cost us the examples above? I was thinking of using Spell Snare and Spell Pierce instead. Even Divert is a good candidate.

Also, I believe Hanni makes a good point on raising the threat density. Speaking of increased density, I will actually try to fiddle with Cosi's Trickster. I am going to replace Cursecatcher with it and see how it goes. I have probably diluted the permission suite, but I think the high threat density should compensate for it.

[dyzzy]

It occurs to me that I may want to post a list with my suggestion. Note that I came up with the following list before all of Hanni's FoW-less suggestions, so it might be possible to combine the ideas somehow. (Easiest solution: replace the Wake Thrashers with Cosi's Tricksters!)

Lands:
12x Island
4x Wasteland
4x Mutavault
1x Mishra's Factory (<-- 13th Island maybe)

Creatures:
4x Cursecatcher
4x Cosi's Trickster
4x Lord of Atlantis
4x Silvergill Adept
4x Coralhelm Commander
4x Merrow Reejerey
3x Merfolk Sovereign

Spells:
4x Aether Vial
4x Daze
4x Force of Will

SB:
2x Kira
13x other stuff

Thoughts:
1) Moved Kira to side simply because you really only want it against Zoo, it costs 3, and it's not a Merfolk. It's pretty much a liability against every other matchup.
2) Took out 1 Merfolk Sovereign because I personally think it's the worst lord. Also helps smooth the curve for the next change:
3) Took out 1 land since I just removed 3 3-drops.
4) It was suggested to replace the Cursecatchers with Trickster. I tried doing that once and I hated not having Cursecatcher. Big no! (Just side him out against Zoo or Goblins!)

[SlopeeJ]

1) Moved Kira to side simply because you really only want it against Zoo, it costs 3, and it's not a Merfolk. It's pretty much a liability against every other matchup.

That seems true until your 6 mana Coralhelm or Fish King get beat by farmers

[dyzzy]

That seems true until your 6 mana Coralhelm or Fish King get beat by farmers

Yes, but I feel like against most decks that aren't Zoo or Goblins, it's more likely that you can afford to lose the Coralhelm or Lord to removal and still threaten to win.

[Hanni]

Think about it, losing a card or a land drop to a permission, is it worth it? With the apparent meta going aggro, can we really race other decks by stop a spell that would cost us the examples above? I was thinking of using Spell Snare and Spell Pierce instead. Even Divert is a good candadate.

I don't think tempo lost is the problem. Both spells actually promote tempo by being "free." Being set back a land drop with Daze is bad if you're relying on lands to get creatures into play, but is amazing with AEther Vial, and the same argument could be said about Wasteland (setting back a land drop).

The fact is, Daze lets you curve out while still having an answer, whereas Snare and Pierce don't. Daze helps ensure you resolve that turn 1 Vial, and forces decks to get extra lands into play (through Wasteland) before they can successfully resolve bombs like Firespout. This actually creates way more tempo than you might lose from getting set back a land.

The problem with Force of Will also isn't tempo lost, because clearly Force of Will is the king of tempo. The problem is that Force of Will is a 2-for-1, and you're almost always going to be pitching a creature in the 16 lord lists that people have been running lately. Is Forcing that Lightning Bolt worth losing what could have been 2 creatures in hand, instead? That's where my issue with Force of Will lies, against any deck that isn't getting a 3-for-1 or better with their removal (Firespout, WoG, etc).


That seems true until your 6 mana Coralhelm or Fish King get beat by farmers

1 Swords to Plowshares isn't a big deal, and that's not the purpose of Kira. Kira is an answer to decks that run alot of removal; basically, an answer to Zoo. The question is, IMO, is it better to just roll with a heavier threat density, instead of playing Kira as a 2-of without any draw/search outside of Silvergill?

Just for the record, I'm testing this sideboard plan vs Zoo (in the list I posted without FoW):

-3 Daze
+3 Umezawa's Jitte

I have 31 bodies to carry the Jitte (35 if you count Mutavault), which is way more removal than Zoo runs, so someone will stick. Jitte is nasty in this matchup, I guess the question is, will I survive long enough to get an active Jitte going?


It occurs to me that I may want to post a list with my suggestion. Note that I came up with the following list before all of Hanni's FoW-less suggestions, so it might be possible to combine the ideas somehow. (Easiest solution: replace the Wake Thrashers with Cosi's Tricksters!)

It may actually be a good idea for me to cut Wake Thrasher for Cosi's Trickster. I'm heavy at the 3cc spot (11), and it may be better to cut some 3cc guys for some 1cc guys. Right now, my only turn 1 plays are Vial and Cursecatcher.

I'm going to try:

-3 Wake Thrasher
+3 Cosi's Trickster

...and I'll let you know how the playtesting turns out.

EDIT: Sejiri Merfolk almost makes me want to splash white. Sygg, River Guide is pretty sweet too (in white).

Stonybrook Banneret is pretty interesting, as well.

[dyzzy]

It may actually be a good idea for me to cut Wake Thrasher for Cosi's Trickster. I'm heavy at the 3cc spot (11), and it may be better to cut some 3cc guys for some 1cc guys. Right now, my only turn 1 plays are Vial and Cursecatcher.

I'm going to try:

-3 Wake Thrasher
+3 Cosi's Trickster

...and I'll let you know how the playtesting turns out.
Not sure if you'll agree with me, but I would also cut 1 Tidal Courier for the 4th Trickster. Trickster is something I want in opening hand (against the decks where I want it at all) and Courier is something I don't want until turn 4.

[Hanni]

Cosi's Trickster has been awful. Smoothing out the curve... meh. Unless you put him into play on turn 1, he's usually just a 1/1. I've never gotten him past 3/3. While 1 mana for a 3/3 is solid, that's only happened once. This is in 2 hours of solid MWS testing.

I think I'm going to try cutting 3 Cosi's Trickster and 1 Mutavault for 4 Stonybrook Banneret and see how that works. That overloads me at the 2cc spot, which opens up vulnerabilities to EE and even Counterbalance, but it's just for playtesting purposes.

EDIT: I didn't even test with Stonybrook, lol. I went straight for Sejiri Merfolk, who just seems like a superior 2 drop. I added fectchlands, Tundra's, and cut the Mutavault's. Honestly, without Standstill anymore, and with a higher threat density, Mutavault seems less necessary. It's a great trump to Wrath of God, Firespout, EE, etc... but it's also vulnerable to Wastelands. It's obviously a great card, but I wanted to try out Sejiri. I did a 3/1 split of Sejiri and Sygg, and I just 2-1'd Zoo, and then 2-0'd him again (these were both postboard), with the U/W version. Jitte won me 2 of the 4 games, and Sejiri won me 1 of the games. In the other game that I won, he was manascrewed and my Wasteland's just made it worse for him.

I'm going to go back to my old posts, and edit/delete them. I'll leave my U/W list as the current.

[dyzzy]

Cosi's Trickster has been awful.
This makes me sad :(


I did a 3/1 split of Sejiri and Sygg, and I just 2-1'd Zoo, and then 2-0'd him again (these were both postboard), with the U/W version. Jitte won me 2 of the 4 games, and Sejiri won me 1 of the games. In the other game that I won, he was manascrewed and my Wasteland's just made it worse for him.
This makes me happy :)

[Tru3z3rox]

I don't think the U/W build is the future. I think Mono U has so many options that there is no reason to subject yourself to wastes and colorscrew.

Are people really happy with courier in a tempo deck? Granted it is an amazing card and I use his other versions in my other tribal decks, but I don't think he fits the control/aggressive build of this deck.

Take out FOWS and DAZES? Never. You'd just punt the combo matches you meet. Why not just play a stronger aggro deck in that case...

[Hanni]

I don't think the U/W build is the future. I think Mono U has so many options that there is no reason to subject yourself to wastes and colorscrew.

I never said U/W was the build of the future. I was suggesting that cutting Force of Wills, and adding Tidal Courier's, seemed like a strong way to go.

However, I don't understand how the white splash is any worse for color screw, and in all actuality, it's actually better at avoiding color screw. I run 8 fetchlands, which yea those can eat some Stifles, they also do some land thinning for Courier (minor relevance, but Goblins been doing this for years). Otherwise, I cut 3 Mutavault's for 3 Tundra's, meaning I still have 7 nonbasics, except 3 of them are actually tapping for blue instead of for colorless. Also, the Sejiri's don't require white mana to be cast, they just require a Plains in play in order to have First Strike and Lifelink. Against Zoo, which is a matchup people seem to be concerned with lately, both First Strike and Lifelink are pretty awesome, and they don't run Wastelands.


Are people really happy with courier in a tempo deck? Granted it is an amazing card and I use his other versions in my other tribal decks, but I don't think he fits the control/aggressive build of this deck.

Define tempo deck.


Take out FOWS and DAZES? Never. You'd just punt the combo matches you meet. Why not just play a stronger aggro deck in that case...

I'm still running 3 Daze maindeck, and I actually 2-0'd Belcher because of Cursecatcher in game 1, and I boarded into FoW's for game 2.

You can, you know, sideboard the Force of Wills for combo. How often do you expect to face combo, especially with Mystical Tutor banned, that you can't simply sideboard Force of Wills for that matchup? You still have Daze/Cursecatcher, and Wasteland for combo like TES/Aeon Bridge.

Also, what would you consider is a stronger aggro deck, since the word stronger is relatively subjective? Merfolk still maintains a great matchup against blue-based decks, which I'd argue, are the largest portion of the metagame.

[Tru3z3rox]

I never said U/W was the build of the future. I was suggesting that cutting Force of Wills, and adding Tidal Courier's, seemed like a strong way to go.

However, I don't understand how the white splash is any worse for color screw, and in all actuality, it's actually better at avoiding color screw. I run 8 fetchlands, which yea those can eat some Stifles, they also do some land thinning for Courier (minor relevance, but Goblins been doing this for years). Otherwise, I cut 3 Mutavault's for 3 Tundra's, meaning I still have 7 nonbasics, except 3 of them are actually tapping for blue instead of for colorless. Also, the Sejiri's don't require white mana to be cast, they just require a Plains in play in order to have First Strike and Lifelink. Against Zoo, which is a matchup people seem to be concerned with lately, both First Strike and Lifelink are pretty awesome, and they don't run Wastelands.

I've not tested seijiri, so I cannot comment on that, but has she really prove to be that amazing over another creature such as a lord? I didn't say U/W was bad, I just meant that mono U has so many options that it is uncessary to splash if you don't need to. I've played many a u/w tempo deck and have seen them get severly screwed especially since I'm wasting them.

Define tempo deck.

Tapping out to play your threats while holding permission or other control that is free/cheap. I actually play a vampire/vial deck that is quite similar except it runs creature removal and discard as the control. Tempo is not requiring to keep mana open to have some control while still playing threats.

I'm still running 3 Daze maindeck, and I actually 2-0'd Belcher because of Cursecatcher in game 1, and I boarded into FoW's for game 2.

I'd sooner pull daze than FOW. FOW on a turn 1 vial is a huge deal.

You can, you know, sideboard the Force of Wills for combo. How often do you expect to face combo, especially with Mystical Tutor banned, that you can't simply sideboard Force of Wills for that matchup? You still have Daze/Cursecatcher, and Wasteland for combo like TES/Aeon Bridge.

Also, what would you consider is a stronger aggro deck, since the word stronger is relatively subjective? Merfolk still maintains a great matchup against blue-based decks, which I'd argue, are the largest portion of the metagame.


Funny enough I'd say elves. Elves have enormous threats and great density. I see the rise of the coming about these days. Also Goblins will be making a huge comeback. Thresh is pretty good too.


P.S. - I love seeing how people are going outside of the box. It makes me happy as I've been feeling weird about doing it for years. :D

Eh..my reply to you happens to be quoted in your quote box. I'm still a noob at this.

[Svenanole]

just a heads up-

4 chalice of the void sideboard has won me many many games

playing it for 2 and cutting off all 1 mana spells is most of the time an instant win vs anything running uw (swords and brainstorm)

[Hanni]

I've not tested seijiri, so I cannot comment on that, but has she really prove to be that amazing over another creature such as a lord? I didn't say U/W was bad, I just meant that mono U has so many options that it is uncessary to splash if you don't need to. I've played many a u/w tempo deck and have seen them get severly screwed especially since I'm wasting them.

I'm already running the 16 Merfolk lords. There aren't anymore, otherwise I'd most definitely go for another lord instead.

Mono blue does have a ton of great options, but after the first 28 Merfolk, the choices get less appealing. I tested Wake Thrasher, who was mediocre, and Cosi's Trickster, who was bad. The next best Merfolk, IMO, was Sejiri. Unfortunately, he requires a white splash, so that's what I did.

The white splash in this deck does not make the deck any more vulnerable to enemy Wastelands than the standard Merfolk manabase, because I cut Mutavault's for Tundra's. I only run 1 Merfolk that actually requires white to be cast (1 Sygg, River Guide). The 3 Sejiri's I run like to have a Tundra in play, but they cost 1U. Also, AEther Vial helps cast Sygg when I have no white sources in play anyways.

Also, I run 17 blue sources of mana, versus the 12-ish that most Merfolk lists run, so I'm far less likely to experience colorscrew than a standard build of Merfolk.


Tapping out to play your threats while holding permission or other control that is free/cheap. I actually play a vampire/vial deck that is quite similar except it runs creature removal and discard as the control. Tempo is not requiring to keep mana open to have some control while still playing threats.

I still have tempo, with AEther Vial, Daze, Cursecatcher, and Wasteland. FoW is a great tempo play, but I'm not sure this deck needs it. And again, I do have 4 FoW in the sideboard.


I'd sooner pull daze than FOW. FOW on a turn 1 vial is a huge deal.

Daze is great turn 1 too, and it doesn't cause card disdvantage. I think threat density is very important against alot of matchups, and you'd rather not 2-for-1 yourself.

Again, this is my thought process at the moment. Clearly, I'm a scapegoat right now. Everyone is running Force of Wills, has been running Force of Wills, and lists with Force of Wills have proven results. I'm questioning the necessity of Force of Will in modern Merfolk, and I'm going to catch alot of flak for thinking outside the box. I'm just wondering how many people have thought about this, and how many think that I'm onto something.

I mean... people were running Standstill's for a long time, and then when the new Merfolk lord got printed, people dropped Standstill. That was a radical, outside the box idea originally. I think cutting Force of Wills is also a good idea, but I guess that's entirely dependant on how the community reacts to the idea.

[Tru3z3rox]

I'm already running the 16 Merfolk lords. There aren't anymore, otherwise I'd most definitely go for another lord instead.

Mono blue does have a ton of great options, but after the first 28 Merfolk, the choices get less appealing. I tested Wake Thrasher, who was mediocre, and Cosi's Trickster, who was bad. The next best Merfolk, IMO, was Sejiri. Unfortunately, he requires a white splash, so that's what I did.

The white splash in this deck does not make the deck any more vulnerable to enemy Wastelands than the standard Merfolk manabase, because I cut Mutavault's for Tundra's. I only run 1 Merfolk that actually requires white to be cast (1 Sygg, River Guide). The 3 Sejiri's I run like to have a Tundra in play, but they cost 1U. Also, AEther Vial helps cast Sygg when I have no white sources in play anyways.

Also, I run 17 blue sources of mana, versus the 12-ish that most Merfolk lists run, so I'm far less likely to experience colorscrew than a standard build of Merfolk.



I still have tempo, with AEther Vial, Daze, Cursecatcher, and Wasteland. FoW is a great tempo play, but I'm not sure this deck needs it. And again, I do have 4 FoW in the sideboard.



Daze is great turn 1 too, and it doesn't cause card disdvantage. I think threat density is very important against alot of matchups, and you'd rather not 2-for-1 yourself.

Again, this is my thought process at the moment. Clearly, I'm a scapegoat right now. Everyone is running Force of Wills, has been running Force of Wills, and lists with Force of Wills have proven results. I'm questioning the necessity of Force of Will in modern Merfolk, and I'm going to catch alot of flak for thinking outside the box. I'm just wondering how many people have thought about this, and how many think that I'm onto something.

I mean... people were running Standstill's for a long time, and then when the new Merfolk lord got printed, people dropped Standstill. That was a radical, outside the box idea originally. I think cutting Force of Wills is also a good idea, but I guess that's entirely dependant on how the community reacts to the idea.

Not faulting you on your thinking but forums need debates and debates require opposing opinions. I'm playing devil's advocate here, but I still do think that FOWS are necessary against many an unknown threat.

Why not balance threat density with control? I've been running 2-3 Echoing Truth for the longest time mainboard and I absolutely love it. Helps with alpha striking and provides a tempo advantage.

What I meant by other options were sb options to combat zoo and other aggro decks better. I really love mind harness and submerge.

@Tundras vs Mutavaults
Granted you have a point of about the same number of nonbasics, but my point was not that you have kept the same number. My point was that you've added things requiring white and if that white is going to be wasted you're left with dead cards in hand (excluding an active vial and sygg example).

[Tru3z3rox]

By the way. I was one of the first to run Coralhelm Commander as a 2 of. I've loved him since the beginning.

[Hanni]

Granted you have a point of about the same number of nonbasics, but my point was not that you have kept the same number. My point was that you've added things requiring white and if that white is going to be wasted you're left with dead cards in hand (excluding an active vial and sygg example).

The Sejiri's cost 1U and are 2/1. They only lose the First Strike and Lifelink if their isn't a Plains in play. Meaning, they aren't a dead card if the Tundra gets Wasted.

[atropos]

@ FOW-less Merfolk controversy:

If you're just playing a deck with vials and creatures without any of the control aspects that blue offers (besides the Dazes) you might as well just play Goblins. Maybe I'm missing something here but if you take away all of the countermagic what's the point of even playing Merfolk? I hope I don't sound like an ass or anything but I think I've got a valid point here.

[Hanni]

@ FOW-less Merfolk controversy:

If you're just playing a deck with vials and creatures without any of the control aspects that blue offers (besides the Dazes) you might as well just play Goblins. Maybe I'm missing something here but if you take away all of the countermagic what's the point of even playing Merfolk? I hope I don't sound like an ass or anything but I think I've got a valid point here.

16 pump lords. Islandwalk. Flying. The only control aspect getting cut is FoW. Daze/Cursecatcher are still in the MD. and are still strong without FoW. You still have access to FoW postboard vs combo decks too (and Spell Pierce if you think you need more hate).

There's advantages to playing Merfolk besides just Force of Will.

[owenzzz]

Hi Everyone,

This is a very good discussion. I will try to test cosi trickster if it will be viable. Coralhelm is a good creature if you have an excess mana. I should rather use the mana to cast another (i.e. 2 ) before using Coralhelm's level up to speed up the clock. I will rather drop a cursecatcher and a LOA or swing a Mutavault than us a level up. Ill keep this at 2.

I am now also looking in putting spreading seas in the deck as a land disruption (3 maybe) and a slight draw engine since we already lost Standstill.

http://magiccards.info/query?q=spreading+seas&v=card&s=cname

I think its a good disruption for various deck since we can opt to use wasteland + spreading seas for mana denial. This will greatly affect zoo and gobs. Also, this will give our creatures unblockable ability and mana fixer for us (i.e. island/muta wasteland in play but we have LOA which is uncastable). At the drawback, this cost 2.

Please post if someone have tried this. Thanks

[sillysam71]

What does everyone think about Sygg, River Cutthroat? I don't think he's been discussed lately. I think he may be viable since if we connect with even one guy, it's usually for 3 damage or more. I still need to test this, but I think he would be a great draw engine. Any thoughts or criticizm on this?

[dyzzy]

I am now also looking in putting spreading seas in the deck as a land disruption (3 maybe) and a slight draw engine since we already lost Standstill.

http://magiccards.info/query?q=spreading+seas&v=card&s=cname

I think its a good disruption for various deck since we can opt to use wasteland + spreading seas for mana denial. This will greatly affect zoo and gobs. Also, this will give our creatures unblockable ability and mana fixer for us (i.e. island/muta wasteland in play but we have LOA which is uncastable). At the drawback, this cost 2.

Please post if someone have tried this. Thanks
I have a friend who has used Spreading Seas as a singleton and swears that it is bonkers against Zoo.

Honestly, I wouldn't know.

[Gaddle]

I dont get why you would cut the Mutavaults and FoW's. Cutting them would decrease your MU against control at what cost? Gaining an edge on Zoo? The reason UW is not as good as mono U is bc UW is more suseptible to Wasteland and other non basic hate. Also Mono U packs more lords than UW or UG. I would rather have 16 lords, 4 Creature cantrips, 4 extra daze like cards, and 2 protection than a combination that is less than that package (though I would be down with cutting a lord and adding a 3rd Kira). I just dont see cutting Mutavaults and adding white will pack a good package in matchups that are other than Zoo.

[Azdraël]

I dont believe it, If you want to move out Fow, just go for an other aggro deck. Fow is one of THE things why we play Merfolk and npt a faster aggro (controle) deck.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Maybe it's just a knee-jerk reaction, but I think cutting Force of Will from the main-deck is a little crazy... It *is* bad in some match-ups, and can be sided out in those, but I tend to think of it as this deck's "oh shit" button. Without it, I think there are just too many problematic things that can happen and you won't have a reliable out. I mean, do you want to automatically scoop to Moat? Have you ever noticed how many times one single unanswered Grim Lavamancer can pwn basically this entire deck? Do you really think combo decks are dead just because Mystical Tutor got banned? From my experience, Legacy is a very unpredictable format, and there's literally no way to prepare for every deck you're going to play against. But having a hard counter for -1 life, -2 blue cards from your hand is about the best failsafe that's available.

Merfolk is still a good deck, and I'm happy that people are mixing it up a little bit, but I think Force of Will is just a little too strong to cut. There's gotta be some reason it's among the top three most used cards in this format, right?

If you ask me, I think Daze is the weaker of the two counters we use anyhow. Everyone plays around it if they're doing something really important, it sets us back a land drop, it's pretty much useless after the first four turns or so, etc. But I still think it's kind of foolish to dip below 3-4 Daze, even so. One of the strongest features that blue has going for it as a color is the ability to counter other peoples' shit. That, and the ability to draw cards. In essence, these are the reasons that you even try to build a mono-blue "aggro" deck in the first place, because almost inherently it's not going to be as aggressive as a deck that uses red or green, as far as its ability to deal damage quickly to the opponent.

Anyways. These are just some ramblings of mine. But in summary, I wouldn't cut FoW if I were y'all.

[Hanni]

Eh, maybe you're right. I still think Tidal Courier is pretty savage, though. Maybe Force of Will should be left in, instead of Daze, since Tidal Courier can compensate for the card disadvantage. I still think the threat density + Tidal Courier is a solid option, though. The fact that this deck now has 16 lords changes alot of the dynamics of the deck, and I think it's worth exploring those options.

[Ayiluss]

Has Kira, Great Glass-Spinner's ability any effect on Wake Trasher's ability or those lord's abilities that gives a boost to other folks? I mean if you have Kira in play does it mean Wake Trasher won't get +1/+1 for each untapped permanent?

[Endrju]

Does Wake Trasher's ability target him? No? So why would it be affected by Kira?
The same way boosting abilities from lords work normaly. And before you ask - levelling up Coralhelm Commander with Kira on board also works fine :)
(I came here to ask Henni about Tidal Couriers and I see that it's been actually asked since I read the topic for the last time, seems I'm not as inventive as I thought ;) )

[kurterickson]

Why are people cutting standstill?

[Heresy]

They say it's win more.

[Curby]

Standstill depends on having a positive board position, which is difficult against Zoo, one of our worst matchups. Getting rid of Standstill and adding lords seems to improve that matchup, so people are adopting it.

[dyzzy]

Yep, Standstill is bad against bad matchups and win-more against good matchups. If your meta doesn't have a lot of Zoo or Goblins, you can argue keeping it in, but it's definitely not a necessity. (I was only running 3 even before people took them all out and I never regretted taking out the 4th.)

[kurterickson]

Then wouldn't it be a better option to play cold-eyed selkie? It adds damaging your opponent with drawing cards. Plus it has the capability of drawing more cards than standstill so you have a better chance of drawing answers. There was a small discussion about spreading seas in an earlier post; could that, tidal warrior, and back to basics be enough hate to at least let youy get the advantage?

I'd say:

-X Standstill (depending on how many you play)
-3 Merfolk Sovereign

+X Spreading Seas
+3 Tidal Warriors

This way, the creature converted mana cost is a bit lower, meaning easier vial usage and less mana consumption if hard casting. It allows your lords to basically make all your other merfolk unblockable and cuts them out of their duals.

[Curby]

So what else are you taking out for Selkie? The other problem is that you're taking out Lords for non-Lords, just to support Selkie (ok, and LoA) but overall I think the change weakens the deck. You might draw more guys, but the guys are weaker. Has this change seen positive testing against any MUs?

[lotriderm]

What are some sideboard options for the mirror besides Llawan and Jitte?

[Pastorofmuppets]

What are some sideboard options for the mirror besides Llawan and Jitte?

Moar Jitte.
There really isn't much you can do. Spell Snare hits a lot of stuff in the deck, but I'm pretty sure it comes down to who gets more lords.
Also Cursecatcher protects against Force.

[luckme10]

Merfolk Assassin is fun if you think you'll be in a meta with many merfolk.

[Curby]

Do you need more? I mean you could run 3 each each of Llawan and Jitte, and then you'd already be dedicating a lot of your board to this MU. I'd start to think that at some point space runs low and considering Zoo-hate, yard-hate, etc. would be at least as much of a concern.

[Endrju]

Very strong card in mirror is Echoing Truth (at least as long as you keep in mind, that it affects your cards as well :P ). It 'resets' Jitte and Vials, removes lords for a while (which is usually long enough ;) ), even may be used to bounce your own adepts if you both run out of options in the late game.
The problem is to find a place for it. Some people play one maindeck (in a Mishra's Factory slot, if we're talking about 16-lord version), what I don't like personally, as it's useless against ANT, lands or Thresh. Some try it in SB, but there's a lot of cards that are better answers for other MUs. But if your regional meta is full of merfolks, you should try to find a place for one or two.

Llawan is slightly stronger now (I mean after BoM), while fewer people play Stifle in their fish.

@Edit: It seems that black splash is the best right now. Keep fingers crossed for Tomoharu and his little blue guys now in top8 :)

[PanderAlexander]

@Edit: It seems that black splash is the best right now. Keep fingers crossed for Tomoharu and his little blue guys now in top8 :)

And now first place :)

[Sleepless]

@Edit: It seems that black splash is the best right now. Keep fingers crossed for Tomoharu and his little blue guys now in top8 :)

Well, black splash does deal with Zoo quite nicely; green just left it up to Tarmogoyf wars and white could only remove so much.

[Tao]

*Waiting for people to show up to explain in detail how bad Saito's list is. Just like his ANT in Madrid.

[Hanni]

Saito's list was great. The maindeck was pretty much streamlined, with the only standout being his manabase. Perish seems like a great answer to Zoo, which can be useful in some other matchups. I'm not sure how good Engineered Plague was for him, since it's so narrow (Goblins hate).

Otherwise, his maindeck is perfect for smashing blue decks of all shapes and sizes (Spell Pierce + Standstill).

[eq.firemind]

Could someone please post Saito's decklist for all those poor office workers with shitty internet filter?

[dschalter]

Saito's list was great. The maindeck was pretty much streamlined, with the only standout being his manabase. Perish seems like a great answer to Zoo, which can be useful in some other matchups. I'm not sure how good Engineered Plague was for him, since it's so narrow (Goblins hate).

Otherwise, his maindeck is perfect for smashing blue decks of all shapes and sizes (Spell Pierce + Standstill).

Plague has a few other uses. Against Aluren (which got the 6th most players d2ing) it's an autowin unless they can kill it, as their deck doesn't do anything when Cavern Harpy can't gate. Survival can't Recruiter for Emrakul (obviously they can just fetch up something to kill the Plague, but if you have a good presence and/or a Vial the delay may be enough to take it. It also kills EtW tokens, though siding it in against the decks that run EtW presumably isn't going to happen.

[Endrju]

Eq.firemind, here you are:

Lands [21]:
4x Mutavault
4x Wasteland
2x Island
2x Flooded Strand
2x Misty Rainforest
1x Polluted Delta
2x Scalding Tarn
4x Underground Sea

Creatures [20]:
4x Coralhelm Commander
4x Cursecatcher
4x Lord of Atlantis
4x Merrow Reejerey
4x Silvergill Adept

Other spells [19]:
4x Aether Vial
4x Daze
4x Force of Will
3x Spell Pierce
4x Standstill

Sideboard:
4x Engineered Plague
2x Nature's Ruin
1x Perish
3x Submerge
3x Tormod's Crypt
2x Umezawa's Jitte

[TheSleeper]

Its interesting that he went against the grain and ran more classic style list, albeit with a black splash SB. Congrats to him, shows Merfolk can adapt and shows the naysayers that Merfolk isn't dead.

Shame I don't own the U/B fetches/duals :(

[Pastorofmuppets]

I have some issues with Saito's list, namely running all 4 Seas. I'd run 3 and an extra Island, since drawing them early-game basically screams, "Hey guys with Wasteland, come on in," which can ruin a curve if there's no Vial directly succeeding it. Also 7 fetches with 6 lands to fetch seems odd.
Although, I'll give him props for diversification of Fetches. I don't know why more 2-color decks where one is only represented in duals (Goblins) don't do this. It may not be a format-warping play, but I don't want to be there that one time out of a million my opponent names the fetch that comprises a full four slots in my deck with Needle.
Also, I would say that this solidifies running Pierce MD, but how much aggro did he face?

[Plague Sliver]

Plague has a few other uses. Against Aluren (which got the 6th most players d2ing) it's an autowin unless they can kill it, as their deck doesn't do anything when Cavern Harpy can't gate. Survival can't Recruiter for Emrakul (obviously they can just fetch up something to kill the Plague, but if you have a good presence and/or a Vial the delay may be enough to take it. It also kills EtW tokens, though siding it in against the decks that run EtW presumably isn't going to happen.

Also answers Thopter tokens, although Merfolk should be favorable in that matchup to begin with.

[owenzzz]

Plague is a good sideboard for Tribal deck which includes Goblin, Faeries and Elves on top of Alluren. This gave Merfolk access to mass kill and to compensate to their current weakness.

I guess the performance is good that's why Saito Become the champ. :)

[lep]

Would a splash into Krosan Grip be worth it in addition to Engineered Plague and Perish? The mana base would only change slightly, say 2 Tropical Island main board?

After watching Saito play, would Pithing Needles be worthwhile in the board? He often was forced to play around a plethora of wastelands and staring down an active CB \ Top or Survival is pretty difficult to overcome.

[justindz]

I have some issues with Saito's list, namely running all 4 Seas. I'd run 3 and an extra Island, since drawing them early-game basically screams, "Hey guys with Wasteland, come on in," which can ruin a curve if there's no Vial directly succeeding it. Also 7 fetches with 6 lands to fetch seems odd.
Although, I'll give him props for diversification of Fetches. I don't know why more 2-color decks where one is only represented in duals (Goblins) don't do this. It may not be a format-warping play, but I don't want to be there that one time out of a million my opponent names the fetch that comprises a full four slots in my deck with Needle.
Also, I would say that this solidifies running Pierce MD, but how much aggro did he face?

What I think Saito did, from watching the games and reading the list is take the following high level strategy:

1 - Play anti-control/combo Merfolk w/ Pierce and Standstill.
2 - Build a focused anti-aggro/GY board that also hits Aluren and particularly shores up Goblins and Zoo.

I also think it's worth noting that he didn't play Merfolk Sovereign. I've never played that Lord and I think it's just too slow and provides less value than the others (and less value than using the slots for, say, Pierce or Jitte or whatever helps in your meta more). Sadly, though, it's a good proof point that thinking of Merfolk as the budget deck that doesn't need duals is a bit limiting.

[Pastorofmuppets]

What I think Saito did, from watching the games and reading the list is take the following high level strategy:

1 - Play anti-control/combo Merfolk w/ Pierce and Standstill.
2 - Build a focused anti-aggro/GY board that also hits Aluren and particularly shores up Goblins and Zoo.

I also think it's worth noting that he didn't play Merfolk Sovereign. I've never played that Lord and I think it's just too slow and provides less value than the others (and less value than using the slots for, say, Pierce or Jitte or whatever helps in your meta more). Sadly, though, it's a good proof point that thinking of Merfolk as the budget deck that doesn't need duals is a bit limiting.

Sovereign pushes your optimal counter count on Vial to 3, especially since he's best with Thrasher, and he's far from a threat on his own. As an addendum to my former statement, the average mana cost of his creatures is 2, meaning he can drop more of his deck faster with Vial. I think that may have been a factor in the early game.

[dar482]

Look at his list, you see how beautiful and streamlined it is. He built it so well to destroy the GP. It also shows that people should've been splashing... And not green or white... Saito's just next level.

[Jiaozy]

I'm not really sure you can argue with a list that went 17-1-1, but anyway here's my 2 cent :wink:
I have some issues with Saito's list, namely running all 4 Seas. I'd run 3 and an extra Island, since drawing them early-game basically screams, "Hey guys with Wasteland, come on in," which can ruin a curve if there's no Vial directly succeeding it. Also 7 fetches with 6 lands to fetch seems odd.Even in the mirror or against other decks with Waste, I'm more than happy if they hit my Seas with their Waste, so long as my Mutavault are alive.
And just a couple of Islands are enough to activate them in the face of Wasteland. :smile:
how much aggro did he face?25% of the meta on day 2 was aggro, so I'd guess a decent amount!

[Tammit67]

25% of the meta on day 2 was aggro, so I'd guess a decent amount!

Most of that though was closer to the bottom tables. I don't remember seeing zoo near the top except for Alix Hatfield, who could have been piloting Ham and swiss on rye and still been in contention

[blueneverfails]

actually the top tables, especially what he played against was different variations of the jace control decks, ( i was at the top tables day 2 and saw atleast 30% to 40% had jace. I felt like I saw Jace every match.) And I can say after watching him man handle jace, that Merfolk is like a 75-25 against those jace control decks

[Tammit67]

actually the top tables, especially what he played against was different variations of the jace control decks, ( i was at the top tables day 2 and saw atleast 30% to 40% had jace. I felt like I saw Jace every match.) And I can say after watching him man handle jace, that Merfolk is like a 75-25 against those jace control decks

That's to be expected from a deck that handles control requiring expensive permenants to resolve. Between wasteland, daze, force, and spell pierce main, it doesn't seem like the type of thing to even consider having a harder time against.

The problem has rarely been the control decks, but Zoo/goblins. His board full of perish effects i feel doesn't quite make zoo favorable, but goblins seems more managable thanks to the E Plague and jitte. His list was extremely well metagamed.

[lotriderm]

Can someone tell me where to find some of the lists of the GP and the videos? Thanks

[mchainmail]

Can someone tell me where to find some of the lists of the GP and the videos? Thanks

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpcol10/welcome

[Jiaozy]

His board full of perish effects i feel doesn't quite make zoo favorable, but goblins seems more managable thanks to the E Plague and jitte. His list was extremely well metagamed.Actually, 3 Perish, 3 Submerge and 2 Jittes are a huge help in the Zoo MU, IMO.
I've still never saw a Merfolk deck siding in 8 relevant cards against Zoo so it's something new enough.

Saito usually does what he did to win this GP: play aggro or combo (he rarely plays control), find the deck he think it's the best deck for his playstyle, then tune it to beat the bad MUs.

[Finn]

When I was playing black splash, I had an improved game against aggro, but it was never "good". The question I have now is if Saito's design is actually "good" against Zoo and Gobs or just not as bad. If it is in fact pretty good, what precisely are the deck's bad matchups?

[Hanni]

I wonder if its worth looking into Brainstorm, if the black splash (with fetches) becomes popular.

[jandax]

When I was playing black splash, I had an improved game against aggro, but it was never "good". The question I have now is if Saito's design is actually "good" against Zoo and Gobs or just not as bad. If it is in fact pretty good, what precisely are the deck's bad matchups?

Don't be fooled, Saito's results and the deck's results are two different things. Saito is a dead ringer, he won that tournament, not Merfolk. It seems to be a player choice, did you switch back to the mono U version in that case? If so, why?

[Tyon]

When I was playing black splash, I had an improved game against aggro, but it was never "good". The question I have now is if Saito's design is actually "good" against Zoo and Gobs or just not as bad. If it is in fact pretty good, what precisely are the deck's bad matchups?

Bad matchup would be mono u merfolk with more beaters and a decent sb against mirror like Llawan.

[Sleepless]

I wonder if its worth looking into Brainstorm, if the black splash (with fetches) becomes popular.

What would you take out from Saito's list though? Spell Pierce and Standstill seem to be the only things, but both of those seem to be better. Brainstorm just filters cards out. Merfolk really just want to draw more.

[timtom178]

So let me get this straight. You're an aggro deck of the least aggressive color in magic, and have absolutely no means in your maindeck to get rid of a creature?

This doesn't strike me as a fantastic plan for winning damage races.

EDIT: Oh, and, good decks run good cards, to quote the motto of Card Quality Advantage. There is absolutely no reason there shouldn't be 3-4 Jittes in Sideboard at least, if not maindeck.

2010 Legacy First Place Winner in Columbus Ohio..

Creatures [20]
4 Coralhelm Commander
4 Cursecatcher
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Silvergill Adept

Spells [19]
4 AEther Vial
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
4 Standstill

Lands [21]
2 Flooded Strand
2 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Mutavault
1 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

SIDEBOARD
4 Engineered Plague
2 Nature's Ruin
1 Perish
3 Submerge
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Umezawa's Jitte

2nd place: Counter Top
3-4: Standstill and UG Vine
Others: Goblins, Zoo, and many Tarmogoyf containing decks...



Merfolk is a true competitive legacy deck.

[Malakai]

Please keep in mind that it's Merfolk we're talking about. It's not exactly the most decision-intensive deck. I'm sure Saito played very well, but stop talking about him as if Cursecatcher is Ancestral Recall in his hands.

That said, his list is pure genius. When I saw it, it just seemed so obvious, so right, and I don't know why I didn't think of it earlier. This is what you get when you have an expert deckbuilder and player come in from the outside.

[dar482]

Just as Malakai said. No one was playing such a teched out deck like this before him. He figured out the metagame and tuned a deck for it. He's a master deck adepter.

[SlopeeJ]

How many times did Saito even play goblins or zoo?

I'm not a pro player or anything but I fail to see how adding 3 perish to a sb is the new "teched out" version of Merfolk that beats zoo. I'm sure the engineered plague at 4 really helps vs the goblins match up, but I don't think 3 Perish added (by themselves) are that awesome. Bring in engineered plague vs zoo? A resolved Grim Lavamancer is gg? The problem vs zoo has always been them burning all the lords until you get 4/4's out and he didn't even have Kira to protect his creatures. Merfolk loses to kird ape or loam lion if you can't get any lords to stick and with no BEB's/Kira I don't see how Merfolk can protect their creatures.... Zoo has more creatures then you have perish and the Zoo in the Seattle meta all have the equipment package which is very hard to beat.


I am not trying to take anything from dudes win, but I really am curious as to what people think (besides saying he is awesome) Everyone knows standstill and spell pierce are good vs combo/blue matchups, so where is the pure genius? Does anyone know what he sb out vs the zoo/goblins matchups

[Pastorofmuppets]

Just as Malakai said. No one was playing such a teched out deck like this before him. He figured out the metagame and tuned a deck for it. He's a master deck adepter.

I suggested splashing black somewhere a mile back in the thread, but it was only for Plague. This was when Goblins was a more relevant MU.

[Justin]

How many times did Saito even play goblins or zoo?

I'm not a pro player or anything but I fail to see how adding 3 perish to a sb is the new "teched out" version of Merfolk that beats zoo. I'm sure the engineered plague at 4 really helps vs the goblins match up, but I don't think 3 Perish added (by themselves) are that awesome. Bring in engineered plague vs zoo? A resolved Grim Lavamancer is gg? The problem vs zoo has always been them burning all the lords until you get 4/4's out and he didn't even have Kira to protect his creatures. Merfolk loses to kird ape or loam lion if you can't get any lords to stick and with no BEB's/Kira I don't see how Merfolk can protect their creatures.... Zoo has more creatures then you have perish and the Zoo in the Seattle meta all have the equipment package which is very hard to beat.


I am not trying to take anything from dudes win, but I really am curious as to what people think (besides saying he is awesome) Everyone knows standstill and spell pierce are good vs combo/blue matchups, so where is the pure genius? Does anyone know what he sb out vs the zoo/goblins matchups

Engineered Plague naming "cat" against zoo kills or weakens Stepe Lynx, Loam Lion, Wild Nacatl, and Qasali Pridemage.

[Tacosnape]

Merfolk is a true competitive legacy deck.

In my defense, since you picked MY quote to Necro from page 1 of the thread,

1. It was on page 1 of the thread, before the printing of Merfolk Sovereign and Coralhelm Commander, when people were still suggesting Riptide Pilferer, Seasinger, and Sage of Fables.

2. I still stand by the argument that Merfolk sucks at winning damage races, which is why people are sitting here debating the viability of black in sideboard as an option to stop Goblins and Zoo. It just sucks less now that there are 8 more lords available than there used to be. Also factor in that 6 of the other 7 decks in the GP top 8 don't depend that heavily on damage racing, but more on establishing control or comboing off.

3. I still stand by that Umezawa's Jitte is a good sideboard option.

4. I clearly don't disagree with Merfolk being a true competitive legacy deck, as I chose it to play at SCG Atlanta, went 4-3 with it, and made notable if not horrific play mistakes in two of my three losses.

[Jiaozy]

The point, tho, is that with the rising of combo decks like Sneak Attack, Aluren and Doomsday along with ANT makes Zoo less and less viable in the meta, barring stuff like MDing 3-4 Gaddock to hope and survive long enough to win the damage race.
Same goes with Goblin: they both have horrible MUs against decks that are becoming extremely popular.

Merfolk has good MUs with the most popular decks (countertop, landstill, New Horizons and combo decks of all shapes and forms) that compose a huge part of the metagame, but has a couple weak (but still winnable) MUs.
That's the reason why it is a contender.
Obviously if your specific metagame is composed of 90% Zoo + Goblin you'd be better served by Enchantress and playing Merfolk shouldn't even be considered, but in a tournament like a GP, with 3 byes to clean up the random junk and most of the aggro, Merfolk is THE deck to play.

[TheSleeper]

Perish also gg's New Horizons.

[Malakai]

Understand this now: there is no "rise" of Aluren. Aluren hasn't gotten anything fundamentally new since portal was rotated into Legacy, at which point we all tried it and noted that it wasn't good enough. Aluren may be a deck, but it is certainly not a tier 1 strategy. The only reason we're hearing about it is because every time a big event comes up, all of the pros from other formats ask what they can play. Then, someone tells them about a two card combo deck that has infinite force of will while going off.

Merfolk already has very good matchups against combo, made all the more favorable by running Spell Pierces and Standstills. It's decks with Mountain and Taiga that pose the problem. Boarding in 8 cards against zoo shouldn't surprise anyone.

[menace13]

Does anyone know what he sb out vs the zoo/goblins matchups

No clue on how Saito Sb'd against Zoo.
I would go on play - 4 Standstill -4 FoW and on draw -3 Daze -3 Standstill for 3 Perish 3 Submerge. No Jitte on draw beacause I do not think Jitte can be equiped in time.
Not sure if this is correct, anyone?

Edit: Goblins; 4 Plague 2 Jitte for -3 Standstill - 3 Daze on draw and -3 Pierce on play.

[Jiaozy]

What i usually do is:

Zoo
-4 Cursecatcher (doesn't do a single thing other than being a 1/1)
-4 Daze (you want to hit 3 mana on turn 3 and 4 mana on turn 4)

+3 Perish
+3 Submerge
+2 Jitte

Goblin
-4 Daze (that Plague MUST come down on turn 3)
-2 Merrow Reejerey (you'll hardly ever want to tap 3 for anything beside Plague and the Vial must be set at 2 barring multiple copies)

+4 Plague
+2 Jitte

I always leave in Standstill because in both MUs they're very good and they at least pitch to Force, if worst comes to worst, plus with a Vial start they're basically an Ancestral Recall.

[Malakai]

I think people are often too hasty about taking out Force of Will. If you're keeping in Standstills I wouldn't take it out, as the ability to counter their play is important for dropping the enchantment. I don't think I'd ever take out a lord against either deck. Daze often comes out on the draw if you expect them to play around it.

There's something to be said for taking out Vials, since they're not really "business" spells.

And for those less financially endowed, here's a mono-blue sideboard that has pushed me to 13-3-1 over the past week:
2 Jitte
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Submerge
2 Mind Harness
2 Threads of Disloyalty
2 Vendillion Clique (for control, enchantress)

[Tammit67]

What i usually do is:

Zoo
-4 Cursecatcher (doesn't do a single thing other than being a 1/1)
-4 Daze (you want to hit 3 mana on turn 3 and 4 mana on turn 4)

+3 Perish
+3 Submerge
+2 Jitte

Goblin
-4 Daze (that Plague MUST come down on turn 3)
-2 Merrow Reejerey (you'll hardly ever want to tap 3 for anything beside Plague and the Vial must be set at 2 barring multiple copies)

+4 Plague
+2 Jitte

I always leave in Standstill because in both MUs they're very good and they at least pitch to Force, if worst comes to worst, plus with a Vial start they're basically an Ancestral Recall.

You really shouldn't leave standstill in against either, especially goblins. You go island, vial. They can go with either vial or lackey and you are pretty much dead if you go for standstill, unless you have force. There are better cards in the matchup with that SB, take out standstill.

PS: Rejerrey is the best merfolk in the deck. The game will get drawn out against goblins. Why not pay 3?

[jrsthethird]

Perish also gg's New Horizons.

Only if NH lets you have black mana. I'm 2-0 RB goblins twice in tournaments with NH because they cut their basic land counts for a splash color. I don't see how any version of Merfolk can be any better against NH than the mono-U 16 lord version; this deck has 7 fetches and 4 Wastelands, plenty of juicy Stifle targets, and if you manage to stick a Sea, it can be Wasted.

Against NH with that build you need to grab the 2 Islands ASAP and hold a Sea in hand for the turn you want to cast Perish. Anything other than that you open yourself up to being blown out.

[_Paradox_]

I think people are often too hasty about taking out Force of Will. If you're keeping in Standstills I wouldn't take it out, as the ability to counter their play is important for dropping the enchantment. I don't think I'd ever take out a lord against either deck. Daze often comes out on the draw if you expect them to play around it.

There's something to be said for taking out Vials, since they're not really "business" spells.

And for those less financially endowed, here's a mono-blue sideboard that has pushed me to 13-3-1 over the past week:
2 Jitte
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Submerge
2 Mind Harness
2 Threads of Disloyalty
2 Vendillion Clique (for control, enchantress)

Did you go 13-3-1 at the gp or just in testing?

[Tru3z3rox]

I'm headed to a tournament later this month and I'm working a bit on my sideboard. Do you guys think we need to board anything at all against combo anymore?

I was thinking of doing 2 spell pierce. I'm having trouble fitting it in though. Here is my board as of now:

1 Llawan
4 Engineered Plague
1 Perish
2 Jitte
3 Submerge
4 Leyline of the Void

[menace13]

Did you go 13-3-1 at the gp or just in testing?
The 17 rounds over the past week should indicate the GP unless stated otherwise.

[Tammit67]

Only if NH lets you have black mana. I'm 2-0 RB goblins twice in tournaments with NH because they cut their basic land counts for a splash color. I don't see how any version of Merfolk can be any better against NH than the mono-U 16 lord version; this deck has 7 fetches and 4 Wastelands, plenty of juicy Stifle targets, and if you manage to stick a Sea, it can be Wasted.

Against NH with that build you need to grab the 2 Islands ASAP and hold a Sea in hand for the turn you want to cast Perish. Anything other than that you open yourself up to being blown out.

Goblins has no excuse losing to you running NH. I blame pilot error.



I was thinking of doing 2 spell pierce. I'm having trouble fitting it in though. Here is my board as of now:

1 Llawan
4 Engineered Plague
1 Perish
2 Jitte
3 Submerge
4 Leyline of the Void

You dont need the leylines, replace them with crypt or whatever. Your singleton Llawan seems out of place, if you are expecting mirror you should run at least 2, and what does submerge answer that additional perishes cannot? If youa re going for the splash, Saito's list seems -perfect-

[Tru3z3rox]

Goblins has no excuse losing to you running NH. I blame pilot error.


You dont need the leylines, replace them with crypt or whatever. Your singleton Llawan seems out of place, if you are expecting mirror you should run at least 2, and what does submerge answer that additional perishes cannot? If youa re going for the splash, Saito's list seems -perfect-

I see your point about the submerges, but saito ran them too.

Why not leylines if I can hard cast them...?

[Titan]

submerge is so you don't always have to board out standstill against aggro, zoo goes turn 1/2 dude, you sumberge it and play standstill

don't plan on hardcsting leyline, it's 4 mana any deck that you REALLY want leyline against can be handled by something else, how about Planar Void?

[Bryant Cook]

I've been playing this deck in locals. What's the best way of fighting Zoo with a mono blue list?

My sideboard as of right now is...
3x Relic of Progenitus
2x Tormod's Crypt
3x Hydroblast
2x Blue Elemental Blast
2x Jitte
3x Submerge

I need to keep the 5 graveyard hate cards, because of all of the blue decks in Syracuse, there's been an uprising in Ichorid (1/4th of the field).

[TheyCallMeTim]

I've been playing this deck in locals. What's the best way of fighting Zoo with a mono blue list?

My sideboard as of right now is...
3x Relic of Progenitus
2x Tormod's Crypt
3x Hydroblast
2x Blue Elemental Blast
2x Jitte
3x Submerge

I need to keep the 5 graveyard hate cards, because of all of the blue decks in Syracuse, there's been an uprising in Ichorid (1/4th of the field).

Just some possibilities of Anti-Zoo tech:

Propaganda
Consign to Dream
Stifle
Wasteland
Permafrost Trap
Hibernation
Back to Basics
Controlled Instincts
Dream Tides
Mind Harness


I have to be honest, and maybe haven't done enough testing, but how often does Jitte actually swing the match in our favor? Also, is Hydroblast necessary, or can it be replaced by other cards that stop red.dec?

[.dk]

Obviously new here... been playing off and on for a while and getting back into it now.

anyway - from my testing over the past 6 months or so, jitte has owned in multiple matchups. maybe it's just the meta that i've been playing in - but it has been a star for me in both speeding up my clock as well as taking out some trouble creatures that resolve for my opponent (mother of runes, goblin piledriver, etc). cursecatcher into jitte almost always make my opponents frown.

here is the list i currently have sleeved up for reference (a bit dredge heavy in my meta, hence the echoing truth):


4 cursecatcher
4 silvergill adept
4 lord of atlantis
3 coralhelm commander
4 merrow reejerey

4 aether vial
2 umezawa's jitte

4 force of will
4 daze
4 standstill
3 stifle

4 island
4 underground sea
4 misty rainforest
4 wasteland
4 mutavault

SB:

4 engineered plague
3 submerge
2 kira
2 llawan
2 relic of progenetis
2 echoing truth

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

I've been playing this deck in locals. What's the best way of fighting Zoo with a mono blue list?

My sideboard as of right now is...
3x Relic of Progenitus
2x Tormod's Crypt
3x Hydroblast
2x Blue Elemental Blast
2x Jitte
3x Submerge

I need to keep the 5 graveyard hate cards, because of all of the blue decks in Syracuse, there's been an uprising in Ichorid (1/4th of the field).

Conventional wisdom is that mana-screwing Zoo works sometimes, countering their removal works sometimes (although very rarely), Kira is good in the match-up, and you're really hoping that they keep a shitty hand. It's not like winning against Zoo with a mono-blue list is impossible, but it's damn well improbable.

As far as your sideboard, it looks pretty good. There might be a couple tweaks that I would try, such as:
- Doing 3 Crypt/ 2 Relic, if Ichorid really is 1/4 of your meta. However, if this has been working so far changing it would be unnecessary, since Relic is the better card in a vacuum.

- Using a total of 5 slots on Hydroblast/BEB seems sort of like it could be a bad sign... If your local meta is crawling out the ass with Zoo, Goblins, and scrubby red decks like Burn, the bottom line is that Merfolk wouldn't be the right deck to run. On the other hand, this might just indicate that your meta already has a lot of positive match-ups and you just want to be prepared for the worst, rather than wasting slots on cards which answer less problematic match-ups. Why is it that you're so stocked up on BEB exactly? Do you feel like they're really necessary in your meta?

- Jitte still feels a little like a playstyle preference to me, although obviously there are enough lists that have placed well using it to justify its inclusion. I do feel obligated to mention that my experience with it has made me not like siding it in against Zoo though.

- I'm not sure if you use Spell Pierce in the main, but I think there are pretty strong arguments for putting 2-3 of them somewhere in your 75. I'd go so far as to say I like the card.

- Ditto with Kira. Especially in mono-blue, I really like 2 Kira, and I usually just squeeze them into the main if I can.

- Lastly, Back to Basics can be pretty boss against Zoo if you can stall/mana-screw them long enough to make it relevant. It's also just a powerful card in many other match-ups, and it's one more that I might try playing with.

Anyhow. I hope these thoughts are somewhat enlightening.

[Bryant Cook]

Conventional wisdom is that mana-screwing Zoo works sometimes, countering their removal works sometimes (although very rarely), Kira is good in the match-up, and you're really hoping that they keep a shitty hand. It's not like winning against Zoo with a mono-blue list is impossible, but it's damn well improbable.

As far as your sideboard, it looks pretty good. There might be a couple tweaks that I would try, such as:
- Doing 3 Crypt/ 2 Relic, if Ichorid really is 1/4 of your meta. However, if this has been working so far changing it would be unnecessary, since Relic is the better card in a vacuum.

- Using a total of 5 slots on Hydroblast/BEB seems sort of like it could be a bad sign... If your local meta is crawling out the ass with Zoo, Goblins, and scrubby red decks like Burn, the bottom line is that Merfolk wouldn't be the right deck to run. On the other hand, this might just indicate that your meta already has a lot of positive match-ups and you just want to be prepared for the worst, rather than wasting slots on cards which answer less problematic match-ups. Why is it that you're so stocked up on BEB exactly? Do you feel like they're really necessary in your meta?

- Jitte still feels a little like a playstyle preference to me, although obviously there are enough lists that have placed well using it to justify its inclusion. I do feel obligated to mention that my experience with it has made me not like siding it in against Zoo though.

- I'm not sure if you use Spell Pierce in the main, but I think there are pretty strong arguments for putting 2-3 of them somewhere in your 75. I'd go so far as to say I like the card.

- Ditto with Kira. Especially in mono-blue, I really like 2 Kira, and I usually just squeeze them into the main if I can.

- Lastly, Back to Basics can be pretty boss against Zoo if you can stall/mana-screw them long enough to make it relevant. It's also just a powerful card in many other match-ups, and it's one more that I might try playing with.

Anyhow. I hope these thoughts are somewhat enlightening.

- Some of the Ichorid decks are packing the White leyline. 3/2 Relic/Crypt makes sense.
- the 5 B.E.B effects are only for 1 Zoo deck and 1 Goblins deck, everything else has Islands. I mean everything. I was just looking for a card that I could us in both of the Goblin and Zoo match-ups.
- Jitte has been fine. I like it. If it comes active against Zoo, I feel much more comfortable.
- I run Spierce maindeck.
- I haven't tried Kira, I'll look into it.
- Back to basics would be good against all of the control decks too.

[Phoenix Ignition]

- Some of the Ichorid decks are packing the White leyline. 3/2 Relic/Crypt makes sense.
- the 5 B.E.B effects are only for 1 Zoo deck and 1 Goblins deck, everything else has Islands. I mean everything. I was just looking for a card that I could us in both of the Goblin and Zoo match-ups.
- Jitte has been fine. I like it. If it comes active against Zoo, I feel much more comfortable.
- I run Spierce maindeck.
- I haven't tried Kira, I'll look into it.
- Back to basics would be good against all of the control decks too.

Depending on your sideboard back to basics plus propaganda is a very good lock against zoo while giving you decent cards against tribal and control (except for that thopter crap), but depending on the hand they get it can be too late to matter. Spell pierce helps almost as much against zoo as blue blast with the obvious exception of lavamancer. Kira is the absolute nuts against a lot of decks and I have always advocated running 2 main, especially with coralhelm commander, who is absolutely a 4-of IMO.

Also you need to keep aggressive hands and plan to finish before the late game where they get a lavamancer or can just top deck burns to kill you. Kira is the best answer I've found in mono blue

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

- Some of the Ichorid decks are packing the White leyline. 3/2 Relic/Crypt makes sense.
- the 5 B.E.B effects are only for 1 Zoo deck and 1 Goblins deck, everything else has Islands. I mean everything. I was just looking for a card that I could us in both of the Goblin and Zoo match-ups.
- Jitte has been fine. I like it. If it comes active against Zoo, I feel much more comfortable.
- I run Spierce maindeck.
- I haven't tried Kira, I'll look into it.
- Back to basics would be good against all of the control decks too.

Two more thoughts:

-It might be kind of fun to split BEB with Mind Harness, since it's pretty good against Zoo and Goblins also. Granted, it's a little worse against Grim Lavamancer (which I basically consider the bane of this deck's existence, lol). But it helps you race, whereas BEB doesn't. And these two match-ups put you in a situation where you pretty much have to race.

-I've always heard rumors of people doing well using Chalice of the Void against Zoo. Personally, I think it looks pretty good on paper, but I haven't tried it myself. It would also depend a lot on your meta, whether or not it would be a worthwhile inclusion.

EDIT: While we're discussing the Zoo match-up, I was wondering what people take out for games 2 and 3. I'm thinking it makes sense to take out Force of Will and possibly Daze (most likely if you're on the draw). Maybe this sounds weird, but my take on it is that since they're the type of deck where no one card that they play is really essential to their game-plan (since the next card they play is probably also capable of doing damage), it doesn't make sense to sacrifice tempo or card advantage in order to counter one of their spells. Spell Pierce is fine on the other hand, but that's because it only sets you back the :u:.

As far as Standstill, I would probably never run it games 2 and 3 unless I had at least Submerge as backup, and even then I feel like I'd want a little extra insurance against Apes and Nacatls and whatnot.

Does this analysis make sense to y'all?

[lotriderm]

I run 2 Kira in the main and 1 more in the side. From experience, if Kira lands, I usually beat Zoo.

[Tru3z3rox]

Two more thoughts:

-It might be kind of fun to split BEB with Mind Harness, since it's pretty good against Zoo and Goblins also. Granted, it's a little worse against Grim Lavamancer (which I basically consider the bane of this deck's existence, lol). But it helps you race, whereas BEB doesn't. And these two match-ups put you in a situation where you pretty much have to race.

-I've always heard rumors of people doing well using Chalice of the Void against Zoo. Personally, I think it looks pretty good on paper, but I haven't tried it myself. It would also depend a lot on your meta, whether or not it would be a worthwhile inclusion.

EDIT: While we're discussing the Zoo match-up, I was wondering what people take out for games 2 and 3. I'm thinking it makes sense to take out Force of Will and possibly Daze (most likely if you're on the draw). Maybe this sounds weird, but my take on it is that since they're the type of deck where no one card that they play is really essential to their game-plan (since the next card they play is probably also capable of doing damage), it doesn't make sense to sacrifice tempo or card advantage in order to counter one of their spells. Spell Pierce is fine on the other hand, but that's because it only sets you back the :u:.

As far as Standstill, I would probably never run it games 2 and 3 unless I had at least Submerge as backup, and even then I feel like I'd want a little extra insurance against Apes and Nacatls and whatnot.

Does this analysis make sense to y'all?

I usually pull standstill and FOW. That gives me 7 slots to to board in deathmarks, jittes, and perish.

[median]

would Ensnare be worth trying in mono blue, its almost a timewalk against zoo, and it is a timewalk against goblins

[luckme10]

Waterfront bouncer is another anti aggro potential card sideboard.

[Tru3z3rox]

Waterfront bouncer is another anti aggro potential card sideboard.

Bouncer is way too slow. I've been tinkering with Snuff out in a U/B splash and have had mixed results.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Seriously, FFS, Bouncer and Ensnare are just not very good cards when you come right down to it. Ensnare basically timewalks you right along with the opponent, because you're setting yourself back by two land drops, and you basically have to use it after you attack. No bueno. Waterfront Bouncer is not quite as bad, IMO, but he's still pretty slow and the fact that he only bounces creatures is kind of unappealing. I mean, yeah, he turns every card in your hand into an Unsummon. But when was the last time when you were playing this deck and you were all like "God, you know what card would save my bacon right now? Frickin' Unsummon"??

And as far as Snuff Out, I might try Smother and/or Diabolic Edict instead. Not hitting black creatures can be awkward, and this isn't really a deck that wants to give up 4 life to kill a creature in our problematic match-ups (ie, Zoo will basically just laugh at you if you Snuff Out their creature). I think Smother or Edict would be a better fit. But if you really want point removal, white is the color to splash. Black gives awesome sweepers, white gives awesome point removal. Green gives you 'Goyf, but honestly, meh.

[_Paradox_]

hi ive been playing saitos md but i play mono u but im having a hard time balancing my sb here is my sb as of now

3 submerge
3 mind harness
2 tormods crypt
2 umezawas jitte
2 relic of progenitus
1 llawan cephalid empress
2 back to basics

thoughts?

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

hi ive been playing saitos md but i play mono u but im having a hard time balancing my sb here is my sb as of now

3 submerge
3 mind harness
2 tormods crypt
2 umezawas jitte
2 relic of progenitus
1 llawan cephalid empress
2 back to basics

thoughts?

Looks pretty decent. What match-ups have you been having problems with specifically, and what does your meta look like?

[luckme10]

Waterfront Bouncer is anti show and tell tech, or rather anti Emrakul tech. Unsummon doesn't target this.

[Pastorofmuppets]

Just some possibilities of Anti-Zoo tech:

Propaganda
Consign to Dream
Stifle
Wasteland
Permafrost Trap
Hibernation
Back to Basics
Controlled Instincts
Dream Tides
Mind Harness


I have to be honest, and maybe haven't done enough testing, but how often does Jitte actually swing the match in our favor? Also, is Hydroblast necessary, or can it be replaced by other cards that stop red.dec?

I was actually about to come in here raving about Flash Flood.
Then after like 3 re-reads, it hit me that it only bounces the mountain.
WHAT KIND OF CRAP IS THAT?

[kiblast]

Waterfront Bouncer is anti show and tell tech, or rather anti Emrakul tech. Unsummon doesn't target this.

that's exactly why i play 2 in sb. Too strong. Is the better answer we can ghave to show and tell / sneak attack.

[menace13]

Why Bouncer over all the other options?
Seasinger or Dominating Licid are decent aside from being narrow; they also steal the creature and can change board positions. Although 3cc making fastest possible activation turn 4 or 5 via Vial and Singer requires them to have Islands while Licid is mana intensive.
Bouncer can come down turn 2 and leaves Vial intact set to 2 and always needs to discard.
Curfew or AEther Spellbomb are the speediest of the options and Curfew can get around a lone Prog/Inkwell/Emrakul.
Gilded Drake or Sower are one shot effects that are also playable. In a black splash Edict orShriekmaw/Bone Shredder and Big Game Hunter easier under Vial

[Finn]

The problem with Seasinger is that it is good against all the decks you should already be steamrolling. It was in all the early decks until we realized where it was incredible and where it was dead. If you are splashing black (or white), you really have plenty of options. But the Black options are either of the Saito kind or you have to ask why you are selecting that color for your splash.

Bryant, the Jitte is typically only decent against Zoo if they also have Jitte. It's bloody ridiculous, but so are all options against Zoo. it just so happens to be a more versatile Shatter than all others we have.

[Tacosnape]

I've had fair luck with Misdirection fighting Zoo. It's absolutely ridiculous how many times you can flip a bolt to a Nacatl/Lavamancer or, if you're lucky, a Path to a Goyf/Knight. It makes you feel like Nelson in the episode of The Simpsons where he's giving the spotted owl noogies and keeps saying "Stop endangering yourself! Stop endangering yourself!" Plus it skyrockets your chances of a Jitte connecting.

[Tru3z3rox]

I've had fair luck with Misdirection fighting Zoo. It's absolutely ridiculous how many times you can flip a bolt to a Nacatl/Lavamancer or, if you're lucky, a Path to a Goyf/Knight. It makes you feel like Nelson in the episode of The Simpsons where he's giving the spotted owl noogies and keeps saying "Stop endangering yourself! Stop endangering yourself!" Plus it skyrockets your chances of a Jitte connecting.

Divert or Misdirection?

[Mister Agent]

I prefer Kira over misdirection, as kira doesn't cost you a card and it makes AEther Vial stronger at three. Which is fine and dandy because of merrow reejerey and possibly merfolk sovereign.

Although, I just like having the ability to protect tarmogoyf with kira. Your able to benefit from submerge more with kira, especially if the zoo player plans on pathing your threat and shifting to the combat phase with their goyf and/or knight of the reliquary. However, I am sure misdirection could be useful in this situation as well but if your low on cards in hand, kira seems much stronger, imo.

[luckme10]

Why Bouncer over all the other options?
Seasinger or Dominating Licid are decent aside from being narrow; they also steal the creature and can change board positions. Although 3cc making fastest possible activation turn 4 or 5 via Vial and Singer requires them to have Islands while Licid is mana intensive.
Bouncer can come down turn 2 and leaves Vial intact set to 2 and always needs to discard.
Curfew or AEther Spellbomb are the speediest of the options and Curfew can get around a lone Prog/Inkwell/Emrakul.
Gilded Drake or Sower are one shot effects that are also playable. In a black splash Edict orShriekmaw/Bone Shredder and Big Game Hunter easier under Vial

I think Finn answered Seasinger better than I ever could. As you said about Licid, it's fairly mana intensive. Gilded Drake seems like a good card. Thanks, I'll test it now. Curfew has limited options due to the other player getting to chose what he wants to return. I can see it getting someone for game 2, but if it goes on, then I'm afraid they will go around it.
As for AEther Spellbomb, it's definitely faster than Bouncer, in a metagame with alot of reanimator or survival, Iona. I was running this pre mystical tutor ban and would probably use this again if I didn't dedicate 5 slots to graveyard hate already.

I personally like bouncer for sideboard options because of the following:

-It can continuously slow the game until you can draw into a card you need. Cards like spare Aether Vials, standstills, dazes for later game, excess islands all provide merfolk with plenty of discard outlets to survive a few turns as long as you can handle the removal.
-It can be vialed in to avoid counterspells.
-It's blue, so it can be discarded for daze.
-It's a merfolk so when it's not needed you can use it to crash into the opponent.
-I may sub it in for other decks besides show and tell due to it's versitility and repeatable ability usage. The repeated usage gives me a greater incentive to use it on my own creatures against removal. That is, if they don't target the bouncer first.
-It can draw attention away from the lords against decks that may overestimate it's threat potential (great bluff tool).

[menace13]

I have used all three in a few tournaments, not all at the same time, but seperately. Singer is only good if they have Islands obv. Drake is good, but against anything other than cheat fatty into play.dek, I would stay with Sower.
Licid is the best out of the bunch, to me. It won't swing for more than 1 and will not protect your guys from removal, but does everything Bouncer would do in the above post. It is mana intensive, although it amounts to casting a Reej, which is doable. Licid also dodges removal where the others can not(bouncer can bounce himself) and can actually take the Goyf,Bob,goblin,Grim,Nacatl to beat face with. If Emrak is really that big of a deal then Spellbomb and Licid are the best options.

Black splash can include more than Perish and Plagues That does not pose the question why are you splashing for it.

[luckme10]

I have used all three in a few tournaments, not all at the same time, but seperately. Singer is only good if they have Islands obv. Drake is good, but against anything other than cheat fatty into play.dek, I would stay with Sower.
Licid is the best out of the bunch, to me. It won't swing for more than 1 and will not protect your guys from removal, but does everything Bouncer would do in the above post. It is mana intensive, although it amounts to casting a Reej, which is doable. Licid also dodges removal where the others can not(bouncer can bounce himself) and can actually take the Goyf,Bob,goblin,Grim,Nacatl to beat face with. If Emrak is really that big of a deal then Spellbomb and Licid are the best options.


In regards to evasion from self:
Licid takes 3 mana to cast, one to uncast, and then another 3 to cast again.
Bouncer takes 2 mana to cast, 1 to bounce itself, and 2 to cast again.

Both are seemingly annoying and Licid probably has more aggressive potential. But spending 3 mana whenever you want to activate it seems rather costly. It means leaving 3 mana open when you want to bind, 4 if you want unbind then rebind. And since Coralhelm Commander already likes to eat up most of our spare mana these days, it makes leaving that much mana open less desirable. Also, because you can only level him during your turn, it means you have to leave more mana open during your opponent's turn if you don't want to suspectable to double removal before rebinding. One of merfolk's biggest problems is against removal. Ultimately, I feel like Bouncer is just cheaper (for merfolk) and more defensively versitile while Licid may have a greater immediate impact, but can slow down your ability to pump and place board position.

[menace13]

In regards to evasion from self:
Licid takes 3 mana to cast, one to uncast, and then another 3 to cast again.
Bouncer takes 2 mana to cast, 1 to bounce itself, and 2 to cast again.

Both are seemingly annoying and Licid probably has more aggressive potential. But spending 3 mana whenever you want to activate it seems rather costly. It means leaving 3 mana open when you want to bind, 4 if you want unbind then rebind. And since Coralhelm Commander already likes to eat up most of our spare mana these days, it makes leaving that much mana open less desirable. Also, because you can only level him during your turn, it means you have to leave more mana open during your opponent's turn if you don't want to suspectable to double removal before rebinding. One of merfolk's biggest problems is against removal. Ultimately, I feel like Bouncer is just cheaper (for merfolk) and more defensively versitile while Licid may have a greater immediate impact, but can slow down your ability to pump and place board position.

Good points, I agree on all of them and would love to try out the Bouncer, since you convinced me, but they aren't online yet. Bouncer is better in MUs where you want to bring in Jitte and equip as well as Pump Coralhelm and can still activate while leaving mana up for lords and Mutas. The tempo off Bouncer is much better.

[_Paradox_]

Looks pretty decent. What match-ups have you been having problems with specifically, and what does your meta look like?

i play on mtgo and magic league so the meta varies alot and changes when big tourney results pop up but my real problem matchup is goblins right now.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

i play on mtgo and magic league so the meta varies alot and changes when big tourney results pop up but my real problem matchup is goblins right now.

Goblins is just kind of *gonna be* a problem matchup if you're running mono-blue. Black for E Plague is probably the most direct way to make sure you beat the little buggers. Splashing white for maindeck point removal has also helped good bit in my testing. If you're running mono blue and want to try to improve your MU, you could always run 6-8 Hydroblast/BEB, but I'm not so sure this would make it favorable. Mind Harness is another option. Jitte is also good against them if you can get it online pretty early.

Basically though, they're kind of like the rock to our scissors.

[luckme10]

So if we're going to go to the trouble of splashing black in merfolk, I think Bob should be given some consideration in place of Silvergill Adept or Standstill. Yes we don't want to draw FoW, but everything else in the deck seems well in place along the sligh curve.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

I kinda feel like since Bob is (a.) not a Merfolk, and (b.) deals us damage every turn, it makes him not ideal for this deck. Maybe testing will show him to be strong, but in my experience our life total is not a very "expendable" resource with this deck (at least in our most difficult match-ups.)

Basically, I think it would be crazy to cut Adept for Bob. I think you can make the argument for replacing Standstill with him, but I have the feeling it might not be right for the deck, or at the very least I think it would lean the strategy in a very different direction.

[Muradin]

If you want to stay Mono Blue your best shot at beating Goblins probably is running the 16 lords + Kira build as it's very creature heavy and thus can cause problems for goblins because it is so agressive and doesn't have Standstill or Spell Pierce which is pretty bad in this particular matchup. For the Sideboard Jitte is probably your best card here in combination with some Blue Elemental Blasts. Propaganda has been underwhelming for me so far. Add some Submerge in the mix against Zoo / New Horizons and you are in a quite good position to take down quite some matches against them as well.

[Raptor]

For an even of the past week end, my friend and I decided to build a mono U merfolk, inspirated by Saito's list.

4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Coralhelm Commander
4 Merrow Reejerey
1 Merfolk Sovereign

4 Aether Vial
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Standstill
3 Spell Pierce

12 Island
4 Wasteland
4 Mutavault

SB:

4 Submerge
2 Hibernation
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Pithing Needle
3 Annul


The decks is really similar to Saito's. It has a card that is almost as good as perish (Hibernation) and has alternative to not so useful Eng. Plague and it has the advantage of being less vunerable to wasteland and stifle. Now that I think about it, I would probally remove the 3 annuls for 2 Umezawa's Jitte and 1 Spell Pierce. We've test this list a lot, and it was really good.

I couldn't attend the event, but my friend did. He made, 3-0 then did 2 draws to go to top 8. And he won his match up in top 8 for a top4 split.

[Tru3z3rox]

For an even of the past week end, my friend and I decided to build a mono U merfolk, inspirated by Saito's list.

4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Coralhelm Commander
4 Merrow Reejerey
1 Merfolk Sovereign

4 Aether Vial
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Standstill
3 Spell Pierce

12 Island
4 Wasteland
4 Mutavault

SB:

4 Submerge
2 Hibernation
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Pithing Needle
3 Annul


The decks is really similar to Saito's. It has a card that is almost as good as perish (Hibernation) and has alternative to not so useful Eng. Plague and it has the advantage of being less vunerable to wasteland and stifle. Now that I think about it, I would probally remove the 3 annuls for 2 Umezawa's Jitte and 1 Spell Pierce. We've test this list a lot, and it was really good.

I couldn't attend the event, but my friend did. He made, 3-0 then did 2 draws to go to top 8. And he won his match up in top 8 for a top4 split.

It looks like a typical mono U build of merfolk. I only like standstill in the U/B build as I run snuff out to remove any of their creatures before I drop it. I agree about plague being too slow. I tried it and it didn't do what I wanted it to do. I don't really like perish in the board either as most people can easily play around it g3 or even g2 if they see a u/b build. I think deathmarks are just better overall.

[kiblast]

Although i know that it will be insulted for this, i have to say that, after playing merfolk mono U for more than 2 years now, this archetype is almost dead.
Although i have tried UW version, i think that monoU is the best way to go, but in a Aggro/Aggrocontrol field-let's say the meta is composed almost by Gobbos, Zoo, Bant Aggro, Aggro Loam, Burn, R/RB sligh, Death n taxes, we have very little possibilities to reach T8.
And saying '' check last top8 results on deckcheck'' is not a valid argument, because Merfolks is maybe the most played deck (with very little changes) allover the world, so if you're lucky with the pairings you can easily access top8, and while most merfolk player will have to fight between gobbos and nacatls, someone more lucky will not, and so he can have better results. I don't think you can do good if your first pairing is zoo, the second is burn and the third is goblin.
Going to a local tournament to find that out of 30 players you'll find 1 burn, 4 goblins and 2 zoo and 1 death and taxes, means that there is almost no possibility to do good.I think this is frustrating, and this is the main reason why i left this archetype, keeping it as my pet deck, and moved to something more unexpected/fun as Aluren.
My 2 cents.

Peace

[Tammit67]

Although i know that it will be insulted for this, i have to say that, after playing merfolk mono U for more than 2 years now, this archetype is almost dead.
Although i have tried UW version, i think that monoU is the best way to go, but in a Aggro/Aggrocontrol field-let's say the meta is composed almost by Gobbos, Zoo, Bant Aggro, Aggro Loam, Burn, R/RB sligh, Death n taxes, we have very little possibilities to reach T8.
And saying '' check last top8 results on deckcheck'' is not a valid argument, because Merfolks is maybe the most played deck (with very little changes) allover the world, so if you're lucky with the pairings you can easily access top8, and while most merfolk player will have to fight between gobbos and nacatls, someone more lucky will not, and so he can have better results. I don't think you can do good if your first pairing is zoo, the second is burn and the third is goblin.
Going to a local tournament to find that out of 30 players you'll find 1 burn, 4 goblins and 2 zoo and 1 death and taxes, means that there is almost no possibility to do good.I think this is frustrating, and this is the main reason why i left this archetype, keeping it as my pet deck, and moved to something more unexpected/fun as Aluren.
My 2 cents.

Peace

So go play TES in that meta. Here in the states merfolk is more than viable with people messing around more with blue based aggro/control. To go and call the archetype dead is... laughable.
(I have not seen aggro loam in a month, is it really that popular in europe?)

[kiblast]

So go play TES in that meta. Here in the states merfolk is more than viable with people messing around more with blue based aggro/control. To go and call the archetype dead is... laughable.
(I have not seen aggro loam in a month, is it really that popular in europe?)

Maybe is only matter of different metagames, but i would not laugh at seeing burn-gobbo-zoo-bant aggro in a row as pairings.

[Finn]

I like it, Raptor. I am moving toward Spell Pierce in the main myself. I kinda wish you had a good way to handle Emrakul though. Seal of Removal is one possibility, but I don't know how good it really is.

[Tru3z3rox]

What do you guys think of the U/B build? I've tried it and I feel that against most of the meta Mono U is better. I do miss running extirpate in the main which is still really good against many decks, but I just hated being subject to color screw and losing to decks I normally win against. Anyone else been play testing U/B?

[kiblast]

I like it, Raptor. I am moving toward Spell Pierce in the main myself. I kinda wish you had a good way to handle Emrakul though. Seal of Removal is one possibility, but I don't know how good it really is.

i play 3 spell pierce+ 4 daze+4 Fow in maindeck and i'm really satisfied.
Against Emrakul i play all those counters to fight show and tell and sneak attack, plus a couple Beb and 2 waterfront bouncers.


What do you guys think of the U/B build? I've tried it and I feel that against most of the meta Mono U is better. I do miss running extirpate in the main which is still really good against many decks, but I just hated being subject to color screw and losing to decks I normally win against. Anyone else been play testing U/B?

mana screw imho is possible if you run exactly saito's manabase wich is:

land [21]

2 Flooded Strand
2 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Mutavault
1 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

in my opinion, we should really try to minimize Waste/stifle hate.So i'd play:

4 Island
1 Swamp
3 Misty Rainforest- Scalding tarn- Flooded strand (combination of these)
3 Polluted Delta
2 Underground sea
3 Mutavault
4 Wasteland

Assuming that we only need one black mana source post-sb. I dont think is useful to play the full playset of Undergrounds+ 7 fetchland, when we only want to see 1 B mana. I think Saito's list is too mana redundant.

[kiblast]

another thing: black splash gives us the best card to answer dredge/loam: Planar Void (http://magiccards.info/query?q=!planar+void).

[Tru3z3rox]

another thing: black splash gives us the best card to answer dredge/loam: Planar Void (http://magiccards.info/query?q=!planar+void).

Leyline is better and we can protect it with counters.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Leyline is better and we can protect it with counters.

You can also protect Planar Void with counters. And Leyline costs :b::b: if you don't play it from your hand.

On the other hand, I think Relic/Crypt are way better for this deck anyways, because you don't want to lean on your splash color too hard (if you're splashing). I suppose if you're advocating running a basic swamp you might be able to get away with it... But on the other hand, I'm not entirely sold on the basic swamp in the black splash just yet. This deck can be pretty :u: -hungry in the games where it doesn't have an Aether Vial online.

[kiblast]

You can also protect Planar Void with counters. And Leyline costs :b::b: if you don't play it from your hand.

On the other hand, I think Relic/Crypt are way better for this deck anyways, because you don't want to lean on your splash color too hard (if you're splashing). I suppose if you're advocating running a basic swamp you might be able to get away with it... But on the other hand, I'm not entirely sold on the basic swamp in the black splash just yet. This deck can be pretty :u: -hungry in the games where it doesn't have an Aether Vial online.

sure. but keep in mind that dredge players expect artifacts, and planar void comes pretty unexpected. Also Planar is a continuous effect, while tormod's and relic effects are not. Leyline is not my cup of tea..4cc enchantment with double specific mana? and it's not Aluren? mmmh..i'll stick with planar.

6/7 fetchland+3 duals means black mana on first turn pretty much always.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Leyline is not my cup of tea..4cc enchantment with double specific mana? and it's not Moat? mmmh..i'll stick with planar.



Fixed.

And yeah, Planar Void is a strong card, I could see wanting to try it out. In certain circumstances (ie a lot of Dredge/Loam/graveyard-based-whatever in your meta). It sounds like you have a lot of Dredge, and I'd imagine that would be kind of a pain in the ass, so go for it.

In other news, I think it's kind of funny how people are somewhat acting like the black splash is the only real version of this deck anymore. I think Saito's list is good and all. But it doesn't prove so much imo that his is the single best version of the deck, as that it's a strong shell and it can be effectively tweaked for the metagame.

[kiblast]

Fixed.

And yeah, Planar Void is a strong card, I could see wanting to try it out. In certain circumstances (ie a lot of Dredge/Loam/graveyard-based-whatever in your meta). It sounds like you have a lot of Dredge, and I'd imagine that would be kind of a pain in the ass, so go for it.

In other news, I think it's kind of funny how people are somewhat acting like the black splash is the only real version of this deck anymore. I think Saito's list is good and all. But it doesn't prove so much imo that his is the single best version of the deck, as that it's a strong shell and it can be effectively tweaked for the metagame.

i have dredge/loam in my meta, so yeah the grave is a pain in the ass. Aggroloam more than dredge, though.
I'm playing merfolk since more than 2 years ago and frankly i'm bored with the mono U version, for all the obvious reasons, and black splash in sb pretty much resolves them. Also, playing fetchlands in a deck in wich the only draw engine is Standstill/ silvergill adept helps a lot to improve your draws in late game.

(and, Aluren>Moat. ^^)

[Fouzt]

So i've been playing merfolk for a while now, and am currently running saitos deck, only with Tundras instead of Underground seas.

This is mainly due to the fact that I own 4 tundras and no underground seas :/, but like the fetches fixing and versatility of a second color for sideboard.

So I come to the forums asking for advice on the 7 slots I have open for white sb cards.

Currently I am running:

4 STP: For basically anything running goyf, piledriver, grim lav@sshole or other nasty creatures such as llawan the merfolk destroyer
3 Kor Firewalker: For goblins mainly, and also incredibly effective against the occasional random burn deck. They also allow vial to stay on 2

I like the how the STP have been performing, but sometimes worry about the firewalkers being too color intensive. I also was thinking of playing around with Tivadar's Crusade, but also thinking it would be the same problem as the firewalkers.

Criticism both constructive and trolling is acceptable and thanks for the feedback :)

[PanderAlexander]

So I come to the forums asking for advice on the 7 slots I have open for white sb cards.

Currently I am running:

4 STP: For basically anything running goyf, piledriver, grim lav@sshole or other nasty creatures such as llawan the merfolk destroyer
3 Kor Firewalker: For goblins mainly, and also incredibly effective against the occasional random burn deck. They also allow vial to stay on 2


If you're going to be running white STP should be maindeck, at least 2-3 minimum. As for sideboard, absolutely Meddling Mage. You can consider 2 or so disenchants too to help against problem enchantments and artifacts.

[diffy]

I just placed fifth (out of 204) at this year's German Legacy Champs with a Merfolk list double splashing White for Maindeck Swords to Plowshares and Black for Sideboard Perish.
Top 8 of the event wasn't played out, my record after 9 rounds of swiss was 7-1-1.
Wins: UG Aggro Control, UWr Landstill, Dreamhalls, Mono Blue Merfolk, Gu Lands and Ugwr Countertop Control. The Draw was intentional against a friend playing Ugr Tempo Threshold. The loss was against Ugw New Horizons with Spellstutter Sprite (who made top8 too).

This was my list:


4 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
2 Island
4 Mutavault
4 Wasteland

4 Silvergill Adept
4 Coralhelm Commander
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
2 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 AEther Vial
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Standstill

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 Perish
SB: 2 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Hydroblast


Report, some notes on how it came to the list and whether or not the double-splash worked out can be found here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?18614-[Report]-Team-SPOD-German-Legacy-Champs-2010).

[TheyCallMeTim]

I just placed fifth (out of 204) at this year's German Legacy Champs with a Merfolk list double splashing White for Maindeck Swords to Plowshares

I've been splashing White for a while now and have a few questions. Firstly, is Perish the Zoo hoser we need it to be? I've been running SB Ghostly Prison / Propaganda. Secondly, would adding Path to Exile in addition to Swords to Plowshares be too much? Finally, has anyone tested Sejiri Merfolk?

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

I just placed fifth (out of 204) at this year's German Legacy Champs with a Merfolk list double splashing White for Maindeck Swords to Plowshares and Black for Sideboard Perish.

LIST.

I suppose part of it boils down to personal preference, but I really have a hard time swallowing the -4 Cursecatcher, +4 Stifle. Not that Stifle is not a good card, but Cursecatcher, is waay better than your appraisal, "whoever thinks 1/1s for one mana are Legacy-material should be keelhauled." A few points: The ridiculous number of tribal effects in this deck will ensure that your 'Catcher is not always gonna be swinging as a 1/1. Also, he works very well alongside Daze and Spell Pierce, leading to the effect that your opponent will always trying to evaluate whether or not you can counter his critical spells. Cursecatcher is one of the myriad reasons that this deck has a decent match-up versus most combo archetypes. And finally, the self-sacrifice ability also comes in handy versus Dredge.

Also, if you're going to cut Standstill down to a 2-of, why not just omit it? (And yes, I read your reasoning on this question in your report. I sorta disagree. I think there's an argument to be made for going down to 3, or running zero, but 1-2 just seems like the wrong number to me.)

On the other hand, I think overall your list is pretty cool. Humorously enough, I was just wondering yesterday what the deck would look like if it were to splash :w: and :b: so obviously there's some amount of synchronicity between how we both see the deck.

[Justin]

I suppose part of it boils down to personal preference, but I really have a hard time swallowing the -4 Cursecatcher, +4 Stifle. Not that Stifle is not a good card, but Cursecatcher, is waay better than your appraisal, "whoever thinks 1/1s for one mana are Legacy-material should be keelhauled." A few points: The ridiculous number of tribal effects in this deck will ensure that your 'Catcher is not always gonna be swinging as a 1/1. Also, he works very well alongside Daze and Spell Pierce, leading to the effect that your opponent will always trying to evaluate whether or not you can counter his critical spells. Cursecatcher is one of the myriad reasons that this deck has a decent match-up versus most combo archetypes. And finally, the self-sacrifice ability also comes in handy versus Dredge.

Also, if you're going to cut Standstill down to a 2-of, why not just omit it? (And yes, I read your reasoning on this question in your report. I sorta disagree. I think there's an argument to be made for going down to 3, or running zero, but 1-2 just seems like the wrong number to me.)

On the other hand, I think overall your list is pretty cool. Humorously enough, I was just wondering yesterday what the deck would look like if it were to splash :w: and :b: so obviously there's some amount of synchronicity between how we both see the deck.

While I agree with you that I'd rather have Cursecatcher over Stifle overall, Stifle is the card that you'd much rather have against Storm Combo. Cursecatcher can help you in that matchup, but Stifle hits their win conditions. Stifle will also be much better against decks that don't run a lot of instants and sorceries, such as Goblins. Another cool thing about maindeck Stile, is that you can use it for mana denial and play Merfolk as more of a tempo deck. I could see Stifle being a better choice in the right meta. My meta, however, has a bunch of blue decks, so Cursecatcher is invaluable.

[Humphrey]

What about running Ports, Stifle and Wasteland?

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

What about running Ports, Stifle and Wasteland?

Rishadan Port was kicked around as an idea for this deck back in the early history of the thread, IIRC, but I think by now we're way too mana hungry to even think about it, between Mutavault and Coralhelm Commander.

Goblins can run Port successfully because they have Lackey and Instigator in addition to their Aether Vials. We just have the Aether Vials, so we're gonna be hard-casting shit more often than not.

If you're running mono-blue and you want additional mana-denial though, you could always consider main-decking Back to Basics. It's definitely a meta call on that one. But it could be brutal in the right context.

[kiblast]

B2B is a strong card with a possible gamebreaking effect for sure, but its 3cmc makes it very undesiderable for a deck who plays at least 6 cmc3 drops and 12 cmc 2 drops. Could be SB material, and for some time i've used it, but in my opinion is not that useful.

[mchainmail]

While I agree with you that I'd rather have Cursecatcher over Stifle overall, Stifle is the card that you'd much rather have against Storm Combo.

Dude, have you played that matchup, ever?

Stifle's only function is stopping fetchlands and chrome moxes. That's it. If you really think that a combo player will ever be exposed to stifle on Tendrils, you are a fool.

They will have the duress post ad naus. Or chant, at the very least.

Cursecatcher is a clock (to some degree; damage adds up) and forces them to hit 6, 7 or 8 mana to cast ad naus.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Dude, have you played that matchup, ever?

Stifle's only function is stopping fetchlands and chrome moxes. That's it. If you really think that a combo player will ever be exposed to stifle on Tendrils, you are a fool.

They will have the duress post ad naus. Or chant, at the very least.

Cursecatcher is a clock (to some degree; damage adds up) and forces them to hit 6, 7 or 8 mana to cast ad naus.

Really? Stifle will never hit tendrils? I've played against storm plenty of times where all my mana denial spells and wastelands forces them to go off with 0 mana floating and at maybe around 10 from a few turns of swinging. These situations the AdN player doesn't draw the absolute nuts (initial mana source, successive mana sources to hit at least 4 mana + however much they need to tutor for the tendrils itself with an extra mana and one of their duress effects). In theory it sounds like Stifle shouldn't touch Tendrils, but in theory all storm players say that they can play around Daze and Spell Pierce and Cursecatcher very easily. In practice storm combo has to go off from bad situations and just hope to get lucky with what they draw. You have enough pressure to not let them draw 20 cards off of AdNauseum.

[Muradin]

So recently I've decided to build a second Legacy deck again after having sold all cards but my favourite deck. I searched for something that beats Merfolk and blue control lists while having a solid game against aggro and not auto-losing to combo. Another factor in my decission is that I wanted to run Kira, because she is quite good and our dog is called Kira as well. I came up with this list that has been phenomenal in testing for me so far:

Bloody Merfolk

4 Scalding Tarn
2 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Volcanic Island
2 Island
4 Mutavault
4 Wasteland

4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Coralhelm Commander
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
3 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner

4 Aether Vial
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt

Sideboard:
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Spell Pierce
3 Tormod's Crypt
4 Submerge


My boarding plans so far in playtesting were like the following, however I am fairly unexpierienced with Merfolk so I am not sure whether this was any good:

Goblins:
-4 Daze
+4 BeB

Zoo:
-4 Daze
-4 Force
+4 BeB
+4 Submerge

Bant:
-4 Bolt
+4 Submerge

Combo:
-4 Bolt
+4 Spell Pierce

[kiblast]

Ur Merfolk. Interesting. But what MU gets improved by putting 4 bolts and 4 lavamancers maindeck?
Also, you say that '' I came up with this list that has been phenomenal in testing for me so far''. Could you post some gameplay experiences, something that can confirm the utility of the splash?
I think that lavamancers could be a nice addition, but frankly i'm missing why this list doesnt run fire/ice.
However, nice list. Please add further details...'cause i'm pretty interested in your results.

[kiblast]

Really? Stifle will never hit tendrils? I've played against storm plenty of times where all my mana denial spells and wastelands forces them to go off with 0 mana floating and at maybe around 10 from a few turns of swinging. These situations the AdN player doesn't draw the absolute nuts (initial mana source, successive mana sources to hit at least 4 mana + however much they need to tutor for the tendrils itself with an extra mana and one of their duress effects). In theory it sounds like Stifle shouldn't touch Tendrils, but in theory all storm players say that they can play around Daze and Spell Pierce and Cursecatcher very easily. In practice storm combo has to go off from bad situations and just hope to get lucky with what they draw. You have enough pressure to not let them draw 20 cards off of AdNauseum.

i've never heard of a TES/ANT players who doesnt protect their combo with at least 1 duress AND 1 orim's chant. So basically unless you dont have 2 spell pierce and 2 stifles in hand, stifle will never hit their storm. Also, they dont really need to draw 20 cards off of AdNauseam, they only need 10-12 and among them at least 1 Brain or 1 ponder....and to draw 10 cards they're going to take 8-10 dmg, not much.

[Justin]

i've never heard of a TES/ANT players who doesnt protect their combo with at least 1 duress AND 1 orim's chant. So basically unless you dont have 2 spell pierce and 2 stifles in hand, stifle will never hit their storm. Also, they dont really need to draw 20 cards off of AdNauseam, they only need 10-12 and among them at least 1 Brain or 1 ponder....and to draw 10 cards they're going to take 8-10 dmg, not much.

Sometimes the tendrils combo player won't have duress or chant and they need to go off immediately because they will lose on the opponent's next turn. Stifle is relevant there. Or as you say, you could have more than one Stifle in hand. There are other tricks that you can do to protect your Stifle in some blue decks. For example, you could hide it from a Duress with a Brainstorm and then draw it back that same turn with a Top or another Brainstorm. Yeah, you won't do that in Merfolk, but I'd still say it is better against them than Cursecatcher. Tendrils decks generate so much mana that "pay 1" counter effects are rarely helpful.