[Deck] Merfolk

[Sims]

Somebody please explain to me why having a lot of Merfolk that cost 3 is an argument in favor of dropping Aether Vial? For me, the fact that I can set my Vials to 3 and confidently leave it there is exactly what I want. It has always been to my annoyance with Goblins that if the opponent manages to survive your first blitz, and your vial got to 4 or 5, it may sit unused for the rest of the game.

Not saying that it's a reason against Vial at all, my questioning of it in the list above was that he is not running any 1-drops outside of Vial at all. As a Goblins player (well, former) in this format and having played Ravager for a while before the format change, I gotta admit I cannot stand playing an Aether Vial in a deck where it isn't going to do anything for two turns, minimum. It's a very nice asset to Merfolk in general, just like in goblins, but I believe the curve has to be appropriately built for it. I'd want to have at least some Turn 1 plays outside of Vial, a handful of 2 drops, and then park vial at three where our curve is the fullest. Also, arguments could be made for leaving Vial parked at 2 counters to drop LoAs and Adepts without fear of CB or Spellsnare and just playing out your 3-drops (cause hell, it's harder for most decks to CB a 3cc Card) but that's an entirely different point.

Long story short: I have nothing against Vial in this deck, nor do I believe a clogged 3cc slot is a reason against the card. I just didn't think it was worth it in his deck where he has no real curve so the Vial collects dust or a chance at being removed for 2 full turns.

Edit: Forgot to dicuss Cursecatcher. I'll be 100% honest, I was going to play Tidal Warrior in that slot but I left them at home. I wanted the warrior because, knowing the opponents around me, I knew there wouldn't be many Islands and I was hoping to sneak in some "I Win" off landing a Lord and beating face with a huge Thrasher. There were times where It would have been nice, but I don't feel it's necessary. Catcher bugs the hell out of decks like Ichorid and even some of the more tempo based decks that are built around a specific curve, as he (combined with daze, or port if you play it) throws their curve off a lot. I like him as a solid 1-drop beater that gets big, and messes with opponents minds. Speaking of Port, considering I've been highly debating B2B in my list lately, it's probably getting relegated to the board and I'll add some number of Wastes and Ports into the deck... Well, at least Wastes. I don't wanna open myself up to the Goblins Mull problem of too many Red mana symbols and not enough mountains in the opening hand.

[Finn]

Thank you, Piceli. That is a very clear argument. This is my reaction to the B2B part.

It seems to me that I will have Stifle in the same spot that you have B2B. Our land supply will be dramatically different as well, but that is part of this. Btw, if you are going to use all lands that produce blue, I have to recommend

Wistful Selkie
u/g u/g u/g
when this comes into play, draw a card
2/2
over Shapesharer, which I think is weak anyway.

Beyond that, I want to be organized about how we look at the question so we can resolve this issue once and for all if that is possible.

Back to Basics is particularly strong against
Landstill+variants
43land
Aggro-Loam
Bwg control
other decks that rely on too many colors

Back to Basics is weak against
Goblins
MUC
Burn
All Combo
WW

Stifle, Port, and Wasteland are particularly strong against
Landstill+variants
Bwg control
Threshold
Survival
Most combo (TES, Belcher, Fetch/Tendrils, not quite as good against Ichorid, but decent)
other decks that rely on too many colors

Stifle, Port, and Wasteland are weak against
MUC
Burn
WW

Naturally I expect others to contest where I think certain cards are strong or weak. But my major point is that Stifle is the right card. It is true that B2B can almost completely shut out certain opponents. But there are relatively few of them. It is much more common to have it stand in the opponent's way over a long time as a major headache because they have a few basics or Birds of Paradise or something. Well, Port, Waste, and Stifle do the same thing but to far more opponents. And Landstill is one of them. (Stifle is amazing in the Landstill matchup) And they hit earlier. Your ability to do damage is sufficient to finish them before they get out of your disruption in a lot of cases.

So then there is the issue of casting a 3-mana enchantment that does not affect board position. That is a very weak spot to be in.

-------------------------
@CorruptedAngel

OK, that makes good sense. I think we are in agreement on just about everything. I did not think I was going to like Cursecatcher. But after playing him, I have found that he really is a pain for a lot of opponents. They commonly hold back their spells which is exactly what I want. Because of the Reejereys and Lords, he is a decent beater in most games. I have been pretty (not very) happy with him. And he plays a remarkable assist to the entire disruption package (Daze, Waste, Port, Stifle, Cursecatcher). Long and short - he is definitely better than Warrior, and I am keeping him indefinitely.

You will not be happy with Waterfront Bouncer. I have tried it, and the cards lost are too much of a burden.

[Piceli89]

Well Finn, thanks for having been so clear. I must tell you that the version with btb i am trying is new; i used to play the denial version , too, but sometimes i Doubted about the real effectiveness of rishadan port, and I also sometimes got angry because they got wasted int eh first turns and i was simply screwed: i tried to screw , and I got screwed :laugh: . I think that BtB must be run if you already know that your meta will be full of the deck you named, so it could be considered as a more "precise " solution, but it's also true for me that it's a more definitive ( or, if not, it's very near to be definitive) one.
Ports and wastes are effective, combined with stifle which is always polivalent, but they -port, in particular- lose effectiveness in the mid game and are a pain in the ass if the opponent doesn't play nonbasic / fetches (which sometimes happens).
Which configuration of port/wastes and stifles do you think it's better to offer a decent disruption but, at the same time, to avoid risking being screwed or having too much colorless mana ? ( You know , loA must be cast sometimes from hand, not always we are so lucky to get a Vial the first turns).
In other words, could you post me the lsit you appreciate more/yu're testing now ? I want to see.

BtW, i always knew that Shapeshareer is too slow, but sometimes it can be also effective. What's true in any case, is that I never managed to copy a goyf or a merfolks of mine - always got plowshared /stifled. :mad:
Selkie is cute, but cc3 becomes very high along with the reejereys and the thrashers.
Do you think Waterfront is worth some slots ? isn't it too slow ? And cursecatcher really manages to be a decent creature for the disruption ?
And never tried in consideration Counterbalances and /or tops ?
Please answer, I wanna get some considerations.. merfolks can be played in so many different variants that I would like to get a definitive solution, especially the version which shines against the "tiers1" but also can be very flexible against any deck 8 including the randoms ). :laugh:
Long live merfolks !
LOL

[sadface]

I really like the direction in which you're taking the merfolk archetype in legacy. Damn, I haven't even playtested the deck yet and I'm already helplessly in love with it. It's TRIBAL, it's MONOBLUE, it's AGGRO and it doesn't feature a quartet of Tarmogoyfs - what's not to love?

Have you considered changing the name of the thread to something a little more descriptive? Preferrably without typos. The deck deserves a lot better.

[Finn]

@Piceli, this is what I will have built for this weekend:

4 Aether Vial
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Stifle
4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Wake Thrasher - had to get them from starcity
4 Tidal Courier
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
14 Island

sb:
3 Seasinger
1 Stifle
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Repeal
3 Echoing Truth


Considering how much attention Goblin Ringleader received about it being broken, I don't know why more people are not using Tidal Courier. I have been very happy with him. Can an opponent to this guy's inclusion please tell me why you don't like him? Anyway, I have Courier in for now, but I will be testing 2 Cold-Eyed Selkie and 2 Repeal in that spot in the near future just because I want to try out the Selkie. The removal of the Banneret should cut down significantly on the crazy explosive turns. But I am banking on Thrasher more than making up for that in terms of hitting power.

I never tried Counter/Top myself, although I am pretty well set against Brainstorm after watching Dragon Stompy make Threshold and Dreadnought decks cry. I don't know that there is room considering that a tribal deck really wants to have a lot of creatures. And then the deck certainly loses a lot of speed to do that. Maybe though. Can it be successful with just Tops and Counterbalances with no support cards?

@sadface, I think the name is about as descriptive as you are going to get. And I tried to correct the spelling error in the title. But it seems to be hard coded somewhere. We need an admin to do it.

[Linkin Pac]

^ Finn, I feel Goblin Ringleader takes all the praise because of his synergy with the speed of goblins in general. With a Warchief out, you get a 2/2 haste, a potential 4 card draw, and then possibly even a big Piledriver all for the cost of a Ringleader without the Warchief. Without the Warchief, his having Haste allows him to sneak through wins after a Wrath or Deed has cleared the board.

But as for Tidal Courier, the Merfolk don't really have that same speed advantage. He does have potential to be a good card drawing engine, but since you're already mono blue I would prefer to take advantage of the other draw spells available, such as Fact or Fiction. Merfolk don't have the muscle to pull off wins with 4 mana creatures IMO, and I feel they should instead try to put out their smaller creatures first and then try to control the board in the mid-game to quickly pull off a win. Also, being 1/2 for 4 mana with a mana-depleting ability to gain Flying is not synergetic with Merfolk. Aether Vial does help though.

Would any of you consider splashing just one color? If you do, I think you should consider this UW Merfolk deck that placed 4th in a 46 person Japanese tournament:

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=18568

4 Cursecatcher
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Silvergill Adept
2 Sygg, River Guide

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Standstill
4 Aether Vial

4 Flooded Strand
5 Island
4 Mutavault
1 Plains
4 Tundra

Sideboard
1 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Disenchant
2 Hydroblast
3 Chill
3 Mind Harness
3 Tormod's Crypt

The deck looks very straightforward on paper with several 4 of's, a solid manabase that doesn't rely too heavily on nonbasics, and all the non-creature spells have proven to be good, so consistency should not be a problem.

The deck is truly a Fish deck, since it uses the fish people and looks to get early threats on the board backed up by a Standstill. The white splash is minimal, only used for Swords to Plowshares (so necessary when your opponent matches your early threats with one of his own), plus the Syggs, which have the 2/2 for 2 body and the ability to push through Merfolk to win the game. This is basically the only W you need mainboard.

One might look at this list and wonder why they would play this over something such as Threshold. Well, thanks to the Lorwyn block, Merfolk now have added utility in addition to their ability to smash face.

Cursecatcher, I feel, is the one drop that Merfolk have been waiting for. He is an extra turn against Wrath or Pyroclasm, and even then you can still follow up with Daze to frustrate your opponent. He is a pain for Ichorid and several other combo decks, giving you the time needed to dig to other counterspells. And as CorruptedAngel already stated, he screws with your opponent's head. Having that extra little fear sitting out there on a stick can give you enough time to prepare your army of little blue men. Together with Standstill, Cursecatcher makes for a nice deck that punishes the hesitant opponent. Whereas other one drops such as Tidal Warrior can make your beaters unblockable with Islandwalk, this requires that Lord of Atlantis also be in play. I would rather just play solid creatures that can hold their own rather than just sneaking in the win, which brings us to the next great thing about Merfolk: Reejerey.

Merrow Reejerey is the card that wins the games. No need to explain the +1/+1 bonus, but the second ability is so often overlooked. After your opponent breaks your Standstill, you will have a fresh supply of cards and a perfect time to lay out your beats. Reejerey is kind of like the Warchief for Merfolk, since by untapping a land for each Merfolk you play you are reducing the cost of each by one. Additionally, you can save a single Merfolk in your hand for the following turn and then tap out their blockers or any man-lands to proceed with the kill.

About Wake Thrasher, I haven't tested him yet, but I don't like how he becomes an overcosted 1/1 when it's your opponent's turn. I might possibly try and replace the Syggs with him later.

Sorry if I stated stuff that seems too obvious for a lot of you, but I want to present this splashed, more aggressive version of Merfolk, as I feel it can do well in an environment where the number of other aggro decks have started to decrease.

[Maveric78f]

Linkin Pac: I agree with all that you say except that I think that the white splash which is not worth and that I think that cursecatcher is not good.

Tidal Courier is not good imo because it will be dead in your hand for a long time and when it gets online it's only a 1.6-card drawer in average, when ringleader 2.2-card drawer in gob and it can be cheated a lot with lackey/warchief (and upping vial to 4 is not that much difficult, since vial is always @3 in gob, when it's @2 in merfolks). As a card advantage engine, I prefer standstill (or even Selkie and U/B Sygg) by far.

I don't understand neither why you reduce the Land Destruction slots. I would understand that you try to build a LDless merfolk build in order to play selkies, back to basics (or manlands) and counterbalance, but I really can't understand the idea behind reducing this effect.

Plus why do you play repeal and echoing truth in SB over Rushing River?

[Piceli89]

@ Finn:
I appreciate your list a lot, except for the Couriers. It's not that I don't like that card, seriously, but I expect him to d great things in a more goblinesque version of merfolks, as Hightower's one. I think that Linkin Pac has got the point, which is the fact that goblins are two times more speed than merfolks and they can get a huger potential from ringleader; furthermore, they have more "mana cheaters-.reducers " ( think at warchief , lackey, vial: 12 cards) which can be tutored easily ( matron). But merfolks.. are more slow, their quality as singles is superior but their explosivity is , certainly, not at those levels. In a list without Bannerets and without at least 27-28 creatures, it could be obtimal, but in yours I think that there could be greater choices for the slots Courier occupies. I am thinking about, for example, card drawers ( as you mentioned, Selkie could be an interesting choice- even if I personally don't like her at all-, but the nuts would be to fit brainstorm , which is always the best drawers in every blue deck, also in aggro-control, everyone knows it) or, something polivalent, bouncers. I guess that a couple of echoing truths or , maybe, rushing river could give us a surplus of protection against serious threats on the field, and would also allow us to put in action nice tricks ( bounce your threats MD, standstill in my turn, while my vials allow me to drop My bombs and kill you leaving my mana open, i.e. you break standstill? draw 3 , counter). Test these ones and tell me if Courier is stil worth partecipating the list.


I was wondering the other day: has anyone noted a little sinergy between Thrasher and vial ? I mean, if we have a thrasher in the field and some vials, we could tap them " voidly " ( vial says that you may put a creature card... in play, you can also not put anything and just tap), maybe make them waste stifles or kgrip for nothing:laugh:, so He can get the bonuses next turn. I think that this works, am i right ? +1/+1 or +2/+2 is always good...

[Barsoom]

I was wondering the other day: has anyone noted a little sinergy between Thrasher and vial ? I mean, if we have a thrasher in the field and some vials, we could tap them " voidly " ( vial says that you may put a creature card... in play, you can also not put anything and just tap), maybe make them waste stifles or kgrip for nothing:laugh:, so He can get the bonuses next turn. I think that this works, am i right ? +1/+1 or +2/+2 is always good...

Yea it works; i was already did it; as you said, the bigger the better...

[GreenOne]

Wake Thrasher is a must. It's really better than Piledriver in this deck, cause it survives Goyf in the attack phase. It puts a serious clock alone.

I'm finding Bannerets more and more unimpressive, so I was looking for another decent 2 cc drop and found Riptide Pilferer. I tried a couple matches with him and it was good. Did anyone test him?

Other less appealing options I found are:
Stonybrook Angler - The ability is mana intensive and not overwhelming.
Waterfront Bouncer - Card disadvantage but fishy-like.
Darting Merfolk - It may sound clunky, but it provides an eternal block and a recurring threah against control in face of a board sweeper.
Overtaker - The ability is too mana intensive.
Voodalian Merchant - card selection is good, but it's not a great body associated with it.

I did not consider the UU merfolks cause they are not easily castable on the manabase (besides vial) and not gamebreaking for their cost.

This is the list I'm playing now, with 26 creatures:
// Lands
14 [BD] Island (3)
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [REW] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [U] Lord of Atlantis
4 [LRW] Merrow Reejerey
4 [LRW] Silvergill Adept
4 [EVE] Wake Thrasher
4 [EVE] Cold-Eyed Selkie
2 [MOR] Stonybrook Banneret
4 [PLC] Riptide Pilferer

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [NE] Daze

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [SC] Stifle
SB: 4 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [US] Annul

[Piceli89]

Well, GreenOne ( italiano come me ! :laugh: ) , 4 Selkies seem to be too many. Have you ever considered to put a banneret more and the couriers ? I think that your list, which tends to cast many many merfoks, should run 3-4 Bannerets ( too useful for your many merfolks which include colorless in their costs ) and, yes, courier, useful to create a huge hive.
For the folks, i think pilferer is quite slow, but if you find comfortable with him, it's a good thing; never considered some shapesharers as ulterior pumpers ?

[GreenOne]

Well, GreenOne ( italiano come me ! :laugh: ) , 4 Selkies seem to be too many. Have you ever considered to put a banneret more and the couriers ? I think that your list, which tends to cast many many merfoks, should run 3-4 Bannerets ( too useful for your many merfolks which include colorless in their costs ) and, yes, courier, useful to create a huge hive.
For the folks, i think pilferer is quite slow, but if you find comfortable with him, it's a good thing; never considered some shapesharers as ulterior pumpers ?

I found Courier just bad when you already have CA machines running. It's also a bad costed body, it makes you raise your vial to 4 (and you don't want it) and I never used it's secondary ability.
I like having utility creatures on the board: if the opponent is trying to race he'll get punished with Pilferer and Selkie. If he doesn't attack we're building an army better than he does. Also, selkie is just busted with 8 pump effects and so much blue in the format.

I did not consider Shapesharer but it sounds good!

[Hightower]

The thing about Courier is also that he's good vs Control, like Truffle Shuffle, Landstill w/ Deed etc. (which can be a tough matchup)

Courier lets you recover after a board sweeper, and puts pressure at the same time. Unlike Selkie he gives you the cards right away, which is what makes him good..

- My 2 cents

[Daeniel]

I guess that another italian partecipating to this thread shouldn't hurt :wink: So, I just purchased the last cards that I's missing for a good legacy deck that uses merfolk (or should I say tritoni? :tongue: ) as a tribe.
I still have to really mount the deck, and I'm still wondering about some cards. This is a skeleton of the list that I've in mind:


4 Cursecatcher
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow
4 Adept
3 Wake thrasher
3 Cold-eyed selkie

4 Vial
4 Force
4 Daze

Comments/suggestions are welcomed.
I'd like to run some Psionic blasts, as one drawback of a merfolk deck seems the lack of removals. Bounce are good, sure, but they don't really eliminate enemy critters... what do you think? Should I use jitte instead, or someone else already got a better idea?

Ciao a tutti!

[Maveric78f]

You'd better play lands if you want to play some spells other than Force of Will.

Well you have 26 open slots. You may want to take the mana denial route with 13/14 islands, 4*wastelands, 4*ports, 4*stifles and your deck is full. The problem with this version is that you may be missing CA for the long games and that you may be missing some power for the early game.

Or take a more aggroish version with more thrashers, less lands, and probably more CA. The problem with this version is that it has no relevant protection against combo, and it can be wrecked easily by a removal such as wrath of god, deed or even EE (the first version could protect itself with MD and stifles).

[Daeniel]

Lands? Really? I never thought of that! :wink:

I don't think that ports are a very good idea; in goblin you can abuse them while popping creatures in play with lackey and vial, with a special discount from warchief... in our case all merfolks cost two mana on average, and onestly using a port after the 4th tourn is ok but a bit "mhe".
I mean, if was searching for land destruction I wouldn't play merfolk probably, no?

Stifles are interesting, but they are metagame-dependant; personally I love them, but I'm just a bit unsure if they really belong here. I guess I've to test them.
What about Back to basics? Is someone still experimenting with that?

Thanks for the advices!

[Piceli89]

Well, my dear Daeniel, at the beginning I thought , me too, that rishadan port would have been antisynergic with merfolks and too slow to be used, but I tested and eventually understood how it is good, along with wasteland and stifle. And don't forget that you can begin to port since the first turns, if you have landed Vial, which will asure you to cheat mana in a great way. I played against threshold UGB three hours ago, and those three cards made the difference: waste, port green mana ( without which they can't play their "ciccioni" , goyf and 'goose) and stifle fetchlands is a must. In other case, merfolk wouldn't be enough strong to fight head to head with these tiers1. And, as Finn suggested, stifles, wastes and , in weaker measure, are really strong against most of the tiers1 ( read : standstill, aggro loam.. also against fetchland tendrils they can be good ).
Merfolks, on their side, provide an incredible dose of aggressivity, combined with many interesing disrupting/ drawing engines; the 8 "pumpers", along with cursecathcer and Adept, are what we need to get huge creatures able also to race (small) goyfs, Crushers, Nantuko shades, etc... Blue, of course, Must need its counters , so FoW, and daze are an autoinclude for an aggrocontrol; for what concerns back to basics, I have a list which relies also on it along with CBalance+ Top, but perhaps it's true that wastes, ports and stifle offer a faster and "polivalent " manadenial ( because stifle can be used in many and many situations, and it's always gorgeous, especially against storm and mass removals-pernicious deed ci incula a sangue).
Some bouncers to get rid of dangerous situations, and you should be able to get a very good list of Merfolks. Maybe you could run psionic blasts instead of bouncers, but i Don't know if Blasts are so good in this list... Merfolk usually procure enough damage, a "blue burn " tool would be almost exclusively for the creatures.. and since goyf could be the only problems for tiny merfolks without thier island-walk gainer, Psionic blast wouldn't be that useful: goyf is usually a 4/5, and you should wait 3 turns to shoot Blast ( and it would be Dazed surely :D ).

[Finn]

In my testing so far, Port has particularly good synergy with Thrashers (much moreso than Wasteland). Wake Thrasher in general has been nothing short of amazing. Just about every time it has been in play it has been the most important creature on either side. I would go so far as to say that it is a gigantic step forward for the deck.

I think I am ready to remove Courier again. Everything you all are saying is essentially true. I will not be using Brainstorm in its place though. I think not using fetchlands is a big boost, and Brainstorm without them is just silly. I really think it will be 2x Selkie and 2x Repeal or something similar.

[Sims]

I've actually been considering dropping the Fetchlands from my build, adding in Wastelands and Ports (possibly, I still hate the idea of having too many colorless mana producers in a deck that likes having so much blue mana) and then replacing Brainstorm with Ponder. It's a cantrip that filters but also has an inherent shuffle effect to help top out as I do run Counter-Top in my build. I'm trying to think of some other decent cantrips or pure draws I could use in that spot. I was thinking running Rushing River, Echoing Truth, or some other bounce spell (not Chain of Vapor, I REFUSE to have my CoV chained and hit a Thrasher), but I think I'd miss having some form of draw outside of the filtering provided by Top.

[AngryTroll]

I'm finding Bannerets more and more unimpressive, so I was looking for another decent 2 cc drop and found Riptide Pilferer. I tried a couple matches with him and it was good. Did anyone test him?

Other less appealing options I found are:
Stonybrook Angler - The ability is mana intensive and not overwhelming.
Waterfront Bouncer - Card disadvantage but fishy-like.
Darting Merfolk - It may sound clunky, but it provides an eternal block and a recurring threah against control in face of a board sweeper.
Overtaker - The ability is too mana intensive.
Voodalian Merchant - card selection is good, but it's not a great body associated with it.


Arctic Merfolk may be worth considering. After combat, it can return Silvergill Adepts to be a 2/2 and provide card advantage, and with Vial, they save creatures from removal.

Although they are never dead, a 1/1 for 1U is terrible. They may be too conditional to work, but with the synergy they have with both Vial and Silvergill Adept, I am surprised that they were not at least talked about at some point. Perhaps as a 3- of?

[Maveric78f]

I thought that arctic merfolk were one of the worst cards ever printed. I'd honnestly prefer Dream Stalker, Manowar or even Cavern Harpy to that crap. Being a merfolk is not enough to make it better than those cards.

CorrAngel > although I'm a big defender of Rushing River in merfolks, I would not advise you to play them because you play only 18 lands and no standstill. Stick with echoing truth or boomerang if you want some bounce.

[Piceli89]

In my testing so far, Port has particularly good synergy with Thrashers (much moreso than Wasteland). Wake Thrasher in general has been nothing short of amazing. Just about every time it has been in play it has been the most important creature on either side. I would go so far as to say that it is a gigantic step forward for the deck.

I think I am ready to remove Courier again. Everything you all are saying is essentially true. I will not be using Brainstorm in its place though. I think not using fetchlands is a big boost, and Brainstorm without them is just silly. I really think it will be 2x Selkie and 2x Repeal or something similar.

Why do you think that not using fetchland is a big boost ? I took 4 Polluted Deltas and try them with 3x brainstorm, I'm quite satisfied but sometimes I don't know how to play with fetchlands ( fearing an opponent's stifle) and I noticed that often they cause a turn loss because of this. Sometimes I'm also a bit reluctant about the lifeloss ( I know that this could be a n00b thing, but if often happens that those 1-2 points are essential to stay alive) Could you show me your viewpoint about fetchlands in Merfolks, i.e Are they useful or not to you ?

[Maveric78f]

As a general matter, in a monocolor deck with no library manipulation, fetchlands are bad. I personnally have no idea about the comparison between full islands and brainstorm + fetchlands. It must be highly dependent on your metagame: burn, sligh, aggro, chalice, counterbalance, moon effects and stifles are advocating against BS+fetches but BS+fetches are better against the rest of the field, and most importantly against Ichorid or combo, id est decks against which you want to see your SB very early in the game.

[Piceli89]

Thank you for your avices, mr Maveric, I'll take them in consideration.

[GreenOne]

Arctic Merfolk may be worth considering. After combat, it can return Silvergill Adepts to be a 2/2 and provide card advantage, and with Vial, they save creatures from removal.

Although they are never dead, a 1/1 for 1U is terrible. They may be too conditional to work, but with the synergy they have with both Vial and Silvergill Adept, I am surprised that they were not at least talked about at some point. Perhaps as a 3- of?

Kicker does not work with vial. Arctic merfolk just sucks.

[Curby]

Is there any chance to use a Vial/Standstill/Mutavault build? The idea's been tossed around a bit, but I don't think anyone ever reached any consensus. One problem I can see is that we need to get dudes from CMC 1 through 3 into play, so it might be tough. On the other hand, we're likely more prepared for it than our opponents.

[Aggro_zombies]

Wake Thrasher is a must. It's really better than Piledriver in this deck, cause it survives Goyf in the attack phase. It puts a serious clock alone.

I'm finding Bannerets more and more unimpressive, so I was looking for another decent 2 cc drop and found Riptide Pilferer. I tried a couple matches with him and it was good. Did anyone test him?

Other less appealing options I found are:
Stonybrook Angler - The ability is mana intensive and not overwhelming.
Waterfront Bouncer - Card disadvantage but fishy-like.
Darting Merfolk - It may sound clunky, but it provides an eternal block and a recurring threah against control in face of a board sweeper.
Overtaker - The ability is too mana intensive.
Voodalian Merchant - card selection is good, but it's not a great body associated with it.
Have you considered Rootwater Thief? I don't remember if it's been considered before in this thread, but RftG your opponent's Tarmogoyfs has got to count for something. Plus, the evasion ability is cheap and the body is decent for the cost and its other abilities.


I've actually been considering dropping the Fetchlands from my build, adding in Wastelands and Ports (possibly, I still hate the idea of having too many colorless mana producers in a deck that likes having so much blue mana) and then replacing Brainstorm with Ponder. It's a cantrip that filters but also has an inherent shuffle effect to help top out as I do run Counter-Top in my build. I'm trying to think of some other decent cantrips or pure draws I could use in that spot. I was thinking running Rushing River, Echoing Truth, or some other bounce spell (not Chain of Vapor, I REFUSE to have my CoV chained and hit a Thrasher), but I think I'd miss having some form of draw outside of the filtering provided by Top.
If you can resolve a Counterbalance in the first few turns, Ancestral Vision doesn't seem too bad. Counter-Top can protect it when it resolves a few turns down the line, and your only other turn-one power play is typically Vial, so...

[Piceli89]

Is there any chance to use a Vial/Standstill/Mutavault build? The idea's been tossed around a bit, but I don't think anyone ever reached any consensus. One problem I can see is that we need to get dudes from CMC 1 through 3 into play, so it might be tough. On the other hand, we're likely more prepared for it than our opponents.

Surely, standstill+ vial is a great sinergy to be played, but it seems that everyone has abandoned mutavault ( i tried them and were amazing, but I realized that they aren't so necessary: they would be surplus damage, where some Wake thrasher can do the same jobs and in a safer way, maybe - mutavaults is often wasted ... furthermore, it costs too much money :tongue: ).
At this moment, I 'm playing with the following list, which I'll bring ina small torunament:

lands 18
4 polluted deltas
4 wasteland
3 ports
7 islands

creatures 18
4 LoA
4 Reejerey
4 Adept
3 Wake thrasher
3 Cursecatcher

Spells 24
4 FoW
4 Daze
3 Stifle
4 Vials
4 Standstill
3 brainstorm
2 Echoing truths

Sideboard: haven't decided yet but it will be about
crypts
chill
propaganda ( perhaps)
pithing needle
divert or energy flux

As you can see, the standtill / vial sinergy is always great in Merfolks, because it allows us to develop the manabase, play our creatures freely and, at the same time, to destroy opponen't s one ( i play wastes and ports). Perhaps, you could say that 4 of 'stills are too much, but I always found myself comfortable with them ( often just dropped 1-2 folks even without vial, beaten my opponent with damage+manadenial and waited for him to break standstill to get additional counters/ creatures to finish the job). You can also bounce something EOT and standstill the game with a creature in play.

[kicks_422]

Just a question... Why isn't anyone using the 1cc change land type Merfolks? Reef Shaman or Tidal Warrior ensures a Selkie hit, or possibly a huge Wake Thrasher with a Lord of Atlantis out. They also add to the mana denial theme, particularly Ree Shaman of course.

Also, why no Jitte? Is the deck too streamlined to use it?

[georgjorge]

I've toyed around a bit with the concept, and I've also played AGAINST the deck a number of times - and, sadly, always beat it. The main problem I see for it is the lack of answers to bigger creatures, and I'm not sure if Thrasher can remedy this.

So, I've tried to build a very streamlined version of the 'folk. For me, the biggest bonus of them is to churn out a steady stream of creatures that eventually get bigger, with some disruption in the background. To exploit that strength, I play neither the mana denial, nor CBalance, nor Standstill, as I think they take away from the focus of the deck, as you use your mana to play cards in order to gain control, where you could play beaters. I could be wrong on this, as obviously other people have put more effort into the deck...

I've decided to go for the white splash in order to solve the problem of bigger creatures, and also put in cantrips which are too strong not to be used, especially considering the lack of one-drops. Splashing DOES make you vulnerable to Wasteland and Moon, but especially Wasteland is no big deal...fast decks tend to do well against it, and Flooded Strand can fetch a Plains if need be.


8 Fetches
5 Island
4 Tundra
1 Plains

4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Reejerey
4 Adept
4 Wake Thrasher
3 Sygg, River Guide
3 Mother of Runes

4 Force
4 Daze
2 Stifle

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder

3 Swords to Plowshares


Swords and Mother can take care of opposing Goyfs/Vores/Crushers, and Mother can also protect key beaters like Lords and Trashers from removal. Sygg is a 2/2 for 2 with a good midgame ability, which I think is good.

White also opens up sideboard option, like dealing with enchantments and artifacts (Serenity might shine here), and Meddling Mage. If you have lots of Goblins and Dragon Stompy, even Absolute Law.

Try it out !

[Piceli89]

[QUOTE=georgjorge;259593]I've toyed around a bit with the concept, and I've also played AGAINST the deck a number of times - and, sadly, always beat it. The main problem I see for it is the lack of answers to bigger creatures, and I'm not sure if Thrasher can remedy this.

Well, I played with you a couple of nights ago and you had canadian thresh, and still beated you 2-1 :D i know that it was because of an error of yours, but it seemed to me that merfolk did pretty well, not focusing on that error.
For what you say, I think that the creatures which could give Folks sme problems are the most big, the green ones and the "too fast " ones ( read: Terravore, GOYF aove all and sometimes, little crappy goblins..). For the rest, I think that the manadenial suite / merfoks powa concurs to be pretty useful.. I Don't fear an exalted angel r a sea drake so much personally, because 1) mana denial paired with counters is always great , and 2) some MD boucners could help you resolving these points.
However, If you fear those pesky creatures so much, why don't you run Mind Harness SB ? Great against aggro loam, which is one of the most unfavorable MU ( usually, but sometimes if we have a lucky hand we can cut their mana and get rid of them). I don't think that splashing the deck for W is the right way, because a decent build of merfolk can have good matchups against every kind of deck- and I'm not joking, so I think that StP and Sygg aren't so necessary, and it would only be an overexposition to wastelands and non-basic hate problems. And come on, if you want to exploit Sygg decently you do have to fetch out lots of white mana, and it can be given only by Tundras ( 1 single plains isn't sufficient). For the combo matchups, FoWs, Dazes and Stifles should be enough on their own, along with a quick aggro clock and standstill ( or, even better, with CBalance in some versions). ANd i can swear you that this deck can also race dragon stompy in game 1 , and even better in g2 if you side in stuff as BEB , or, to gain rid of chalice, chill, which is phenomenal even against gobbos ( where i usually do a fuckin' crazy thing siding out my vials for pithing needle on their vials and putting chill+ propaganda, it usually works).

[georgjorge]

Well, I played with you a couple of nights ago and you had canadian thresh, and still beated you 2-1 :D i know that it was because of an error of yours, but it seemed to me that merfolk did pretty well, not focusing on that error.

Were you Fabio ? In that case, it was only 1-0...and it WAS that game that got me thinking about the problem of control elements in Aggro, because in that game you drew TWICE off standstills and still nearly lost (or lost if i played it right) because Goyfs are bigger than Merfolk.

I'll be thinking about your comments, but it was my impression that Merfolk doesn't really have "good matchups against every kind of deck" due to the aforementioned lack of answers to fast big creatures. Yea, Merfolk Bouncer and Mind Harness would be nice there, but Bouncer seems fragile.

But, as I said, splashing also opens you up to the powerful cantrips, and I think those work better here than you might assume. Seriously, they are the best reason to play blue, and they fit into the deck.

[Piceli89]

Yes, i was Fabio. I only wanted to tell you that it didn't seem to me that merfolks had suck a terrible game against canadian thresh ( and i swear that's one of the most negative MU because bolts and F/I along with counters and goyfs are a pain in the ass for Merfolks). it's sure that Goyf is far more bigger than Merfolks, but i think that some mind harnesses in side would be a GREAT solution, and you can't deny this ( I would have sided them in the second match, but, as you truthfully told, we played only one match). However, could you tell exactly which are the creatures " so bigger than Merfolks to cause problems " ? I believe that those threats can be arginated very well, and not by adopting another color in the build, which is not necessary. However , if you like the UW build, I trust you deeply about what you say and your opinions, but I want you to have tested the MonoU build when you sy that the monocolored version alone can't stand some big and fast creatures.

[Curby]

It's strange to me that people keep talking about Goyf problems and such, but why are anti-creature elements relegated to the side? How about some Shackles or Seasingers in the main?

Also, people are moving strongly in the direction of Cursecatcher over Tidal Warrior as the 1-drop of choice, but with Cold-Eyed Selkie and the possibility of Seasingers in the main, I wonder if Aquitect's Will can be revisited. It can't ever mana-screw them and might even have no positive effect against blue decks, but it'll still cantrip.

[georgjorge]

Mind Harness could be good. But Bouncer looks too fragile, Seasinger in addition too unstable, and Shackles too slow to me (when usually having only three Islands, you won't ever take a big creature).

The creatures I was referring to are...

Goyf
Crusher
Terravore
Tombstalker
Dreadnought
Exalted Angel
Gathan Raiders
Serendib Efreet

(how pretty, it looks like stairs !)

[Piceli89]

I was wondering how curious is the fact that almost all those creatures you mentioned above here are often, if not usually, played in decks which pack also chalice @1 ( think at it: aggro loam, Dragon stompy, White stax, Faerie Stompy..) which , often played @turn 1, would make StP a dead card in hand. Why don't you run bouncers, which can be useful-if not crucial- in several situations ??

[Maveric78f]

I was wondering how curious is the fact that almost all those creatures you mentioned above here are often, if not usually, played in decks which pack also chalice @1 ( think at it: aggro loam, Dragon stompy, White stax, Faerie Stompy..) which , often played @turn 1, would make StP a dead card in hand. Why don't you run bouncers, which can be useful-if not crucial- in several situations ??

Hey !!! You know that I completely agree with you ;-)

Moreover bouncers are always good against most fatties (I think about crusher, stalker, nought, exalted, raiders). Gilded Drake is even better, as it has a tremendous synergy with vial. The only creatures (outside from goblins) that are a problem are confidant and tarmogoyf because it's often not worth a 3/3 flying, because it's cheap and because it's pain in the ass to play against.

Shapesharer is good against all of them except confidant (you can't take benefit from the upkeep triggers with shapesharer). So is Wake Thrasher by being bigger than all of them. I think that one should play both with a creature base as follows:
8*pumpers
4*silvergil
4*thrasher
3*shapesharer
The rest is mana base, counterspells, mana denials and drawers (standstill or a merfolk : sygg for instance).

[Piceli89]

Hey !!! You know that I completely agree with you ;-)

Incredible !!!! LOL

[pingveno]

just piloted this list to a first place finish at my local shop. pretty small tourney but some very tier decks. i think there was 14, but they included solidarity, nightmare survival, UGr thresh, mantle affinity, and goblins.

21 lands
- 4 flooded strand
- 2 polluted delta
- 4 tundra
- 4 wasteland
- 1 plains
- 6 island

23 creatures
- 4 lord of atlantis
- 4 merfolk rejerey
- 4 silvergill adept
- 4 curse catcher
- 3 wake thrasher
- 2 coldeye selkie
- 2 sygg, the river guide

16 other spells
- 4 force of will
- 4 aether vial
- 4 swords to plowshares
- 4 daze

sideboard
- 3 tormod's crypt
- 4 stifle
- 2 umezawa's jitte
- 3 disenchant
- 3 chill

round 1: against random g/w aggro
2-0 in my favor, i wasn't really taking notes, but it seemed like a fairly solid list with goyf, watchwolf, mother of runes, and some equipment. i won fairly easily though with aether vial combat tricks, and a swords for every goyf.
round 2: solidarity
2-0 for me again, again pretty easily won. however, he did make a serious play mistake game 2 by not remanding his own meditation with my force of will on the stack. he chose to remand my force which i recast and he ran out of gas. cursecatcher was a monster both games though, really screwing with his head, buying me a couple of turns without even sacking them
round 3: UGr threshold
2-1, a very tough matchup, but sygg made his inclusion worth it against bigger creatures and more removal. game one was a race, that i won by getting out three islandwalking lords and a timely force of will on a lightning bolt. game 2 he two for oned me twice with fire/ice, with a goyf to mop things up rather quickly. and game three i vialed in sygg in response to a bolt to save my lord of atlantis, and next turn vialed in a rejerey in response to pyroclasm to save sygg, lord of atlantis and a cursecatcher. this allowed me to race two goyfs while leaving a blocker back indefinitely with pro green.
round 4: mantle affinity
drew into the playoffs, but i did play him in the finals
round 5: nightmare survival
2-0, both extremely easy games, involving heavy disruption on his mana sources with stifle, daze and wasteland. usually a closer matchup, but i had 2 god hands, with vial, daze, waste and beaters.
round 6: affinity, finals
2-0, again, probably should have been closer, but first game i dazed a ravager, forced a cranial plating and got him 5th turn with lords and an adept. second game i disenchanted an early engineered plague, and won with a lord, a selkie and a jitte, which killed alot of things on his side.

overall id say my list is pretty solid, i did get lucky a couple times, and it could use some pithing needles and brainstorm, but i didnt have access to those at the time. i think merfolk has a pretty favorable matchup against alot of very good decks and deserves some more serious testing and consideration. thoughts on my list, in particular the cold eyed selkies? has anyone used them, and what do they think? btw, wake thrasher ends games very quickly.

[Hightower]

I must say I don't understand the white splash in Merfolks, but maybe that's just me.. Daze and FoW can adress all the creatures I need to deal with, and often I don't need to deal with their creatures, because merfolks have island-walk most of the time (and get big)

Only reason I would play STP is to handle a resolved Goblin Piledriver, since Goblins can rape Merfolks.

Sygg isn't good enough in my opinion, his ability is too mana intensive and useless...

[pingveno]

Only reason I would play STP is to handle a resolved Goblin Piledriver, since Goblins can rape Merfolks.

you just answered your own question, white has the most useful, powerful spot removal spell ever printed, and a small splash is more than worth it. its not just pile driver, and in anything outside MUC, i would like some way to deal with a creature outside of countermagic. there is only so much 4 daze and 4 fow can handle. and personally i like sygg, because in combination with vial he can be brutal, almost mother of runes good in my opinion, but he is rather mana intensive and would be the first card to go in my list. further, white gives very relevant sideboard options in disenchant/seal of cleansing, and meddling mage.

[Hightower]

I don't think 1 card would make me splash for STP, since I don't see that many goblins decks around.. (atleast not in Denmark)

[Maveric78f]

white gives very relevant sideboard options in disenchant/seal of cleansing, and meddling mage
In what is it relevant ? Why prefer disenchant to rushing river ? I just don't get.

Playing STP to beat goblins is irrelevant. Propaganda does better, since it deals with pilly as well as with the other gobs. Plus, you probably can't beat goblins neither.

[Piceli89]

Playing STP to beat goblins is irrelevant. Propaganda does better, since it deals with pilly as well as with the other gobs. Plus, you probably can't beat goblins neither.

This is true, if you fear so many aggro decks whcih tend to create a horde just play propaganda. StP is sick, that's undeniable, but it's asumed that goblins can replace a sworded piledriver with other pillies and, what's more terrible, very quickly (remember ringleader and matron, and even lackey).
A protected ( if uou fear REBs) propaganda in game 2 can slow down them very consistently, and allows you to create your own blue horde and... smash.
Goblins is an unfavorable match, however, but IMHo not so impossible to handle with.

And in any case, I don't like the white splash, too... blue can make everything you need from another colour,and in a better way. Need to remove creatures ? bounce them. Need to remove pesky artifacts /enchantments ? Bounce them.

[pingveno]

i dont understand why bouncing a permanent could be anywhere near as good as removing it from the game. removal is a perfectly legitimate reason to splash a color, bouncing is an option to remove a troublesome permanent when you can win very shortly afterwards, but what will it do against a turn two goyf? well you can bounce it using three mana next turn with rushing river, attack with a lord of atlantis and a cursecatcher for 4 damage. then next turn they replay goyf and force your force. where does that leave you?

[Daeniel]

I agree with pingveno... come on, bounce is nice and everything, but is not good as true removal. And 4 duals+fetchland and brainstorm don't hurt the deck, as long as you're not going to run back to basic MD.

Of course you could have problems if you plan to play wastes, ports (and every other colourless source), but let's face it: if you really want to follow that road, why not choose a threshold? You can pack wastes and stifles MD, you just need one threat to win the game (goyf, 'goose, or whatever creature'd be included in a black/white/red splashed version of the deck), and you have a tons of cantrips to find even more LD than the average merfolk deck. In other words, why trying to do something that other decks just do better?

For the moment I'm stuck with the MU version, but I guess I'll try a splash (either B or W) soon. Anyone has tried Sygg, river cutthroat yet?

[pingveno]

For the moment I'm stuck with the MU version, but I guess I'll try a splash (either B or W) soon. Anyone has tried Sygg, river cutthroat yet?

ive actually tried him, and he seems pretty 'win more' to me. i would rather have something like cold eyed selkie which can draw on its on. also, river cutthroat is a pretty awful topdeck after a sweeper. plus, selkie and any lord is pretty brutal card advantage, and it can draw you at minimum just as many cards as sygg at his best.

[cloudstrife7]

Bounce is actually pretty comparable to removal if you are the aggressor, because in this role your attack post-bounce is the most important objective.

Also, in decks trying to gain initiative on you, bouncing their stuff with something like rushing river can create a resource bottleneck. They want to continually lay answers to your threats, or beats to keep pace with you. You bounce something, and their 1 tempo beat per turn is delayed, but re-playing it would prevent them from playing another tempo beat. In terms of the short-term game state (1-3 turns after it is played) it has the same effect as removal in many matchups.

The only time when bounce is significantly worse than removal is when you are using it as an answer, because you buy yourself a turn instead of evening the game. Bounce is best as another threat, almost like a pump spell, making your threats effective for a longer period of time. Something like Rushing River is absolutely devastating tempo-wise as it effects the immediate game state in ways that no other spell can for such a cheap cost.

What bounce does not do is answer something. It slows down the other deck more effectively than spot removal because you get larger changes to game state for the same mana, but it does not prevent you from losing to some killer permanent in the long run unless you win the turn it happens. Removal will do that.

I think bounce (specifically rushing river) fits the aggressive strategy of this deck much better than removal does. Replacing bounce with removal for something like the turn 2 goyf problem is a weak strategy because you are still just hoping you can luck into your answer lottery-style, you aren't actually creating any sort of strategic trump. I sound like the worst parts of Flores by saying it, but I think using options like Shapesharer, Propaganda, Seasinger, Shackles, etc, while keeping bounce is just better Magic.

Edit: I suppose using that logic would merit giving white Sygg a run as a test subject, and in white splash, STP is a more favorable change to game-state than the best 1 drop bounce, chain of vapor, against creature decks that run islands, which is basically just thresh variants and us (and fish if anyone still plays it). Are threshold and the mirror match a big enough portion of the metagame to run the card? The other reason to run STP (or possible black removal) would be if serious testing revealed absolutely no ways to beef up the central strategy of the deck to compete with the best creatures in the format, but in that case I would say the archetype isn't ready yet anyway.

[Maveric78f]

Cloudstrife7, I don't get your edit. STP has always been an awful card in aggro decks, because giving your opponent life is not the way to go.

Let's say that Merfolks usually kill turn 5 or 6 with low opposition and turn 7 or 8 with a strong opposition. After that time, the deck is probably less effective because of daze/mana denial strategy becoming useless. Facing a big creature on turn 2 (tarmogoyf for instance) acts like a Moat. The Tarmogoyf player can't attack because the merfolk attack in response would be more deadly. What is the strategy for the merfolk player : over expand in order to have 20 damages on board and bounce the Moat-like permanents that your opponent is playing. In this role rushing river is the best card because it is almost universal and it can bounce 2 Moat-like permanents, when STP or disenchant are narrow and can bounce only 1 Moat-like permanent.

In addition to that, bounce is as good as removal because mana denial can prevent your opponent to play his bounced permanents, you play counterspells and it's synergic with standstill.

[Hightower]

By the way, isn't about time this deck gets moved to Established? When decks like MUC, Vaka Pox and Mighty Quinn - who all see a minimal of play - are still in there, then Merfolks definately deserves to be in.

From Germagic.de: http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?type=Merfolk&format=Legacy

Roger over

[cloudstrife7]

@ Maveric78f. I think in essence we agree, as we both mentioned rushing river as the best removal option for the deck. I should have added more qualifiers for the edit on STP, as I wanted to suggest it may be a legit 1-cost utility card in two matchups, as i don't think is so terrible as to deserve unreserved bashing. For the record, I don't think that those two matchups are a good reason to run the card over chain of vapor in the 1cc utility slot. I also feel that 3cc is the best cost to use for removal in this deck , hence I am sceptical as to whether that slot should even exist.

General. I'm interested in the threat/spell balance for this deck. I find that I want to run Force, Daze, Stifle, Vial, River, and Still, but doing so cuts me to 14 creatures if I roll with 22 lands, and I would rather have around 22 fish. What cuts do people find are the most effective? I think subbing cold-eyed for standstill might be necessary, even though standstill is a much more powerful card, in order to preserve the balance.

[Piceli89]

OMFG !! Merfolks has been moved to estabilished deck !!! yeah ! It deserved this a lot !! Cm' on guy, just a bit of work here and we'll soon find the topic: [DTB] Merfolks !!

Long live the blue fishes!

[Finn]

In addition to that, bounce is as good as removal because mana denial can prevent your opponent to play his bounced permanents, you play counterspells and it's synergic with standstill.This is very true. I have been playing Repeal, which I am generally happy with. But I have also been using Echoing Truth, which I think I may be replacing with Rushing River. Losing the land could hurt from time to time, but I bet it will not be nearly the pain an opponent will feel when we are able to keep them off their mana so often. In particular, I repealed a Tarmo a couple of weeks ago that never came back into play. I topdecked Wasteland and that was that.

If I am to splash, it will definitely be for White, and it will primarily be for Sygg, not STP.

[pingveno]

If I am to splash, it will definitely be for White, and it will primarily be for Sygg, not STP.

I must say I one hundred percent agree with a splash, in my personal list Sygg was very good with vial. And even without he demands removal because if you untap with him in play his effect can be devastating. He allows you to color walk past any threat which almost fills the role of bounce. And though earlier I said I might cut him first, the more I think about it the more I realize he has a very nice niche to fill and does his job well. Any match-up with big creatures or a flurry of removal can benefit from Sygg. Plus if you splash white you might as well run StP.

Also, very exciting to see merfolk in established decks

[Maveric78f]

General. I'm interested in the threat/spell balance for this deck. I find that I want to run Force, Daze, Stifle, Vial, River, and Still, but doing so cuts me to 14 creatures if I roll with 22 lands, and I would rather have around 22 fish. What cuts do people find are the most effective? I think subbing cold-eyed for standstill might be necessary, even though standstill is a much more powerful card, in order to preserve the balance.

21 lands should be enough if you don't play standstill (which is not needed anymore I think). 2 or 3 rushing rivers should be enough too. The rest should be *4. I finally get 60-21lands(8denials, 13islands)-4vials-4FoW-4Daze-4stifle-2/3rivers = 20/21 merfolks. I would go 8 pumpers, 4 silvergil, 4 thrashers, 3 selkies and 2 shapesharers.

[AngryTroll]

Sygg is as close as Merfolk can get to having Crystalline Sliver, the best of the Sliverfolk. While clearly not as strong against removal as Crystalline, the colorwalking ability is relevant. If you run white, he's too good not to include. One more great white Merfolk would make the decision easy; as it stands, are Sygg and Swords good enough to splash white?

[Barook]

What's the general thought on Mutavault? I tested this (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=18568) list (with a different sideboard) and I was quite impressed by it. Sure, it competes with Wasteland for the slot, but from the little testing I've done so far, Mutavault backed up with pump contributed alot to the wins.

Despite having Mutavault and Vial, I had massive problems against a resolved Counterbalance, especially with Disenchant contributing nothing to solve the situation. I'm going to try Oblivion Ring instead, which is able to get around CB and adds addtional creature removal if necessary. Thoughts?

[Cabal-kun]

What's the general thought on Mutavault? I tested this (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=18568) list (with a different sideboard) and I was quite impressed by it. Sure, it competes with Wasteland for the slot, but from the little testing I've done so far, Mutavault backed up with pump contributed alot to the wins.

If you can include it in the deck, do so. While you might have some color issues, it's a pumpable creature that dodges board sweepers. I have won Landstill matches by having Mutavault in play, and dropping a Lord and swinging.

[Hightower]

Great to see this in Established =)

I've just come back from Grand Prix: Copenhagen, Legacy side event (63 players) playing 7 rounds of swiss then standings - no top8 due to time constraints.... I played Merfolks, to a 6-1 finish, making 3rd place with this list:



// Lands
14 Island
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port

// Creatures
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Cursecatcher
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Tidal Courier
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Stonybrook Banneret
4 Wake Thrasher

// Spells
4 Force of Will
4 AEther Vial
3 Daze

// Sideboard
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Stifle
3 Chill
3 Annul
1 Gaea's Blessing

Here's how it went (no huge tournament report from my side, since I didn't take any notes - just a short info of what I met):

Round 1

A fellow Dane, he's playing 5c Slivers. I win 2-1

(1-0)

Round 2

A Swedish guy playing something with Academy Rector and Form of the Dragon. I win 2-0

(2-0)

Round 3

I meet a German (and fellow "Sourcer", Van Phanel), playing Solidarity. I win 2-0 (he drew crap on his Meditates and fizzled in both games)

(3-0)

Round 4

A Scottish guy, who played something GBW-rockish' without deeds, it seemed like Eva Green w/ white splash. I lose 1-2 (He had 16x creature removal spells + Engineered Plague post board) =(

(3-1)

Round 5

Another Dane, this one is playing Ichorid. I win 2-1 (Tough match)

(4-1)

Round 6

I meet a Polish guy playing UBr Painter combo. I win 2-0 (Gaea's Blessing helped alot!)

(5-1)

Final round: 7

The undefeated Finnish player gets paired down (noone else is 6-0), and he gets to meet me! He is playing traditional Meat Hooks.
I win 2-1 (This was an interesting match, and of course I played really bad.. Getting a warning for trying to target his Muscle Sliver, while he has a Crystaline in play 'doh', but I pulled it off anyway and won game three on 6 life)

(6-1)


- So in the end there's 3 people with 6-1 and of course my tiebreakers suck balls, so I get in 3rd, and the Meat Hooks guy still wins 1st - so he got a display Eventide and a 80-gig Ipod. But was great fun, even though I had expected more people to show up at the side event, entry fee was 3 Euro / 5$ - pretty cheap for an Ipod! (prize support was also 1.5 boosters pr player, divided in the top 8, I think)

Gaea's Blessing showed to be tech, since there was around 5+ Painter combo decks and 2+ Solidarity.. (I thought that deck was dead and forgotten)

Over and out.

[Maveric78f]

Congrats HighToe.

A very tribal and aggro list, with absolutely nothing to deal with permanents, but apparently fast enough to win before running out of coutnerspells for your oppoennt's key spells. Bad luck to face a random list at 3-0 too. What were those 16 anti creatures? maw, putrefy, smother and edict?

[Hightower]

Thanks Mav-o, my only way to deal with resolved permanents was tapping with Reejerey, yeah =P So I had to hope for 1x or 2x FoW's pr game.

- The GBW guy played: Swords to Plowshares, Smother, Vindicate (not only creature removal I know) and fucking Slaughter Pacts :P

I'm actually beginning to think about testing Mutavaults and Standstill+Brainstorm in the deck, I would cut Tidal Courier and Stonybrook Banneret.. We'll see =)

[Maveric78f]

21 lands should be enough if you don't play standstill (which is not needed anymore I think). 2 or 3 rushing rivers should be enough too. The rest should be *4. I finally get 60-21lands(8denials, 13islands)-4vials-4FoW-4Daze-4stifle-2/3rivers = 20/21 merfolks. I would go 8 pumpers, 4 silvergil, 4 thrashers, 3 selkies and 2 shapesharers.

I changed a lot my mind after some testing and I came back to standstill which is far more efficient than selkie in drawing. Selkie is too difficult to play and to protect. Standstill can almost always be played (I play 4*wasteland, 3*port, 3*mutavault now + 12*islands + 4*vials +2/3*Rushing river) in the first turns, and does not need to be protected.

Here is the list I play now :
Lands: 22
12 islands
4*wastelands
3*rishadan port
3*mutavault

Folks: 19/20
4*silvergill
4*lord
4*reejerey
4*thrasher
2*Shapesharer
1/2*Selkie (or jitte)

Stuff: 18/19
4*vial
4*FoW
4*Daze
2/3*rushing river
4*standstill

SB :
4*tormod
3*propaganda
4*stifle
2/3*Mind Harness
1/2*rushing river

Mutavault has become very good with Thrasher, enabling you to tap out without taking burn damages.


I'm actually beginning to think about testing Mutavaults and Standstill+Brainstorm in the deck
BS, I'm not convinced, since you don't play fetches and probably don't want to. I think that the merfolk MD does not need it, but it's very useful to find your SB material in the first turns (tormod mainly).

[Hightower]

BS?? I would add fetches of course, around 6 possibly. Since Tidal Courier in theory should only give around ~2 Merfolks, Brainstorm is on par, If not better, and alot more flexible since I can get the "non-merfolk" cards I just boarded in, etc.

I'm thinking about testing it that's for sure =)

[Maveric78f]

I mean "you don't want to play fetches besides in the aim of shuffling the BS cards far in the library". Another problem is that I often keep a hand with no blue mana (with FoW, vial and a lot of creatures/mana disruption precisely). In these hands brainstorm is a dead card.

[Hightower]

I thought you meant Bull Shit.. =P like "I don't believe you"

[whienot]

Merfolk took 1st out of 72 at Iserlohn on 8/3.

Here's the decklist. (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=19245)

There was only 1 non-blue deck in the top 8. Looks like it was a great choice.

[Nihil Credo]

Merfolk took 1st out of 72 at Iserlohn on 8/3.

Here's the decklist. (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=19245)

There was only 1 non-blue deck in the top 8. Looks like it was a great choice.

"Sardinengulasch". Winner.

Only 1 B2B in the sideboard. Less winner :(

Also, +2 Tidal Warrior -2 Tideshaper Mystic, but I'd bet caviar to sardines he just couldn't find the extra Warriors.

[Sims]

Merfolk took 1st out of 72 at Iserlohn on 8/3.

Here's the decklist. (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=19245)

There was only 1 non-blue deck in the top 8. Looks like it was a great choice.


The only thing I can say is, only 2 Wake Thrasher?

[Maveric78f]

- brainstorm with no shuffling effect...
- only 19 lands
- tidal warrior + tideshaper mystic and only 2 Wake Thrasher
- strange SB

Everybody here would agree that this list was suboptimal, but it still did 1st on a quite big tourney.

[Shugyosha]

- brainstorm with no shuffling effect...
- only 19 lands
- tidal warrior + tideshaper mystic and only 2 Wake Thrasher
- strange SB

Everybody here would agree that this list was suboptimal, but it still did 1st on a quite big tourney.


The guy owned one card of the whole deck before the tourney started. He had to build this thing with what his friends had, as far as he wrote in his tourney report (it's in german obv. so I didn't quote from it). From the report it seems that he always had Port/Wasteland online by turns 2-3 and often killed/decided the game by turns 5-6.

[SouthAlly]

So this is the hot new deck on the block?

Have any of you boys ever worked out the problems associated with burn? I don't mean the deck, I mean the burn that you find in Threshold, Goblins, etc. I'm thinking that if they can take out the lords, you can find yourself in trouble.

[Spectör]

Here's my list I worked out with the guy who won Iserlohn (I actually had to convince him that Brainstorm is a bad carddraw in this deck oO) and took to a 11-1 (8-1 without droppers) finish in the league of mtg-forum.de

// Lands
12 [UNH] Island
3 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [LRW] Silvergill Adept
4 [LRW] Merrow Reejerey
4 [7E] Lord of Atlantis
3 [EVE] Wake Thrasher
4 [SHM] Cursecatcher
2 [LRW] Shapesharer

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [DS] AEther Vial
3 [NE] Daze
4 [SC] Stifle
3 [OD] Standstill
2 [DS] Echoing Truth

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [BOK] Threads of Disloyalty
SB: 2 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 2 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [SOK] Pithing Needle

19 lands are really ok. I for myself almost never had any problems with mana screw. Also I would play the 4th Thrasher, but I don't find any room for it.
Maybe -2 Shapesharer, +1 Port, +1 Thrasher

[Daeniel]

Sorry, but I don't get it.. I mean, why Standstill'd be a better CA than Brainstorm? We just have Vial to abuse it, and if we don't we're quite screwed.
For my liking is a bit too situational... I would simply add some more lands, some fetches and put back Brainstorm.

Otherwise Cold-eyed selkie... maybe?

[Maveric78f]

Sorry, but I don't get it.. I mean, why Standstill'd be a better CA than Brainstorm? We just have Vial to abuse it, and if we don't we're quite screwed.
For my liking is a bit too situational... I would simply add some more lands, some fetches and put back Brainstorm.

Otherwise Cold-eyed selkie... maybe?

You forgot the creatures that you play, and that you are an aggro deck...

Selkie is crap. Really.

Spector : that's thekind of list I defend. I just can't understand why you'd prefer to play echoing truth over rushing river and why you keep playing cursecatcher which has been a really bad card in my testings, when daze is maybe even better than force of will. In clear, remove the cursecatchers, fill the 3-of slots, exchange the echoing truths with rushing rivers and you got approximately my build (I just play mutavault, in order to be able to play standstill more easily).

[Cabal-kun]

So this is the hot new deck on the block?

I hope it amounts to much more than that. :wink:


Have any of you boys ever worked out the problems associated with burn? I don't mean the deck, I mean the burn that you find in Threshold, Goblins, etc.

Pre-board, the burn in Threshold isn't too huge of a concern. While they may able to use it to take out your creatures one by one, UGr Thresh only runs 8 creatures, iirc, and maybe some sideboard. All you really need to do is save your counters for those, and target either their red or green sources with your land disruption, and you come out to roughly a coin toss. Sideboard, depending on what they run, can be horrendous. Pyroclasm, Pysoblast, and REB, to name a few, really go to town on Fish.

Aside from Ldisrupt, Sygg, River Guide. It's not Crystalline Merfolk, but it's your other best protection against burn. That, and you can use it to colorwalk and it has independent Islandwalk, so it's not too bad on it's own.

Goblins...I have not got around to working this one out. I can only imagine that it's worse (if it has not already been proved so beyond reasonable doubt), since they have some burn...and alot more creatures than Thresh does. Islandwalking is difficult, if not impossible, and Goblin Piledriver is a nightmare to face (who thought that the pro-blue might be relevant one day?)


Sorry, but I don't get it.. I mean, why Standstill'd be a better CA than Brainstorm?

Because Standstill gives you card advantage, while Brainstorm gives you card quality.


Otherwise Cold-eyed selkie... maybe?

So far, I've found Cold-Eyed to be worth inclusion, especially against anything running Islands. Independent islandwalk is good, and the chance of drawing more than one card a turn is not to be overlooked.

[Spectör]

Spector : that's thekind of list I defend. I just can't understand why you'd prefer to play echoing truth over rushing river and why you keep playing cursecatcher which has been a really bad card in my testings, when daze is maybe even better than force of will. In clear, remove the cursecatchers, fill the 3-of slots, exchange the echoing truths with rushing rivers and you got approximately my build (I just play mutavault, in order to be able to play standstill more easily).

Cursecatcher may have been bad in your testings, but not in mine, since it's incredibly good to win counterwars or just stall removal from hitting my creatures. Additionally given the rising popularity of Eva Green in Germany and that it fills the cc1 slot quite nicely I would NOT think about replacing it anytime soon.

Also I prefer echoing truth much over rushing river, because the latter costs 3 mana and that is quite a lot. It can't remove all goblin, zombie or worm tokens from the board, where especially the last two can be so nasty. Removing multiple goyfs with rushing river costs you a land, with truth you don't have that problem. The only thing I see truth being worse in is against counterbalance, but against decks with counterbalance you can win anyways without bouncing it.

Mutavault would be a great card and i'd love to play it, but for now I only play 19 land and don't wan't to give up more blue mana oder mana denial.

[Daeniel]

You forgot the creatures that you play, and that you are an aggro deck...

Yes, and...? What's that supposed to mean?
Come on, of course it's possible to abuse standstill with mutavault AND vial, but otherwise it's good only after a turn 1 vial (and then you've got to have both of the in your starting hand) or when you're "almost" already winning. In this second scenario would it really be so useful?

We can play standstill safely just with more that 1 merfolk on the board, given that the other player doesn't have a goyf/random critter in play. How often is that supposed to happen?

And on a larger scale, standstill is very situational; instead of helping some though match-up (someone said goblin?) it just makes some already good MU slightly better. So, again: is this really our only option of card advantage?

[Maveric78f]

We can play standstill safely just with more that 1 merfolk on the board, given that the other player doesn't have a goyf/random critter in play. How often is that supposed to happen?
Rushing river ?

[Daeniel]

With two rushing river MD? Wow!

Still a bit situational for me. Really, it's fine if you like it, and I can see some of your points... that said, I'm still looking for a better alternative.

Other ideas? And, for curiosity's sake, why cold-eyed selkie sucks?

[Finn]

I have had Standstill experiences similar to Daeniel. And I was playing with Mutavaults, and Cursecatchers (to come down turn 1). I just don't see a long list of opponents that Standstill would hose.

Furthermore, Selkie has won some games on her own. When choosing which creatures to play, I always keep the Selkie until last. That way the opponent has a hard time dealing with her, and my hand is in need of replenishing, etc. It's great for winning games that are longer than you would like (like Standstill can) only it has all the advantages of being a creature, and a Merfolk. I have played both with and against this deck a great number of times now, and I am fairly pleased with the effect the Selkie has on games.

One final note, Rushing River with 19 lands, 4 of which are Wastelands, seems a tad scary. But in my 21 land version, I will be testing it. 3-mana means it is better against Counterbalance, a major target.

[Maveric78f]

The sacrificing part of rushing river is not mandatory. Everybody speaks as if it was. As for myself I play 22 lands in my current build.

[Eldamion]

Mutavault seems to be the only solution against Piledriver.

When Goblins resolve a first turn vial, there is not out against the piledriver, because we can't counter him anymore.

In my opinion, in a metagame with a lot of goblins, no mono Blue merfolk or at least with mutavaults with a single chance to block the piledriver.

Otherwise, UW merfolk with swords main or in the board to fight them.

Any other solutions or experiences from anyone?

I like to play this deck in the german legacy championships next sunday, and I am not sure about the perfect list for a completly open field and metagame.

[Maveric78f]

The main problem with pilly is not as an attacker but as a blocker. As a attacker we calm him down with propaganda.

[Cabal-kun]

Otherwise, UW merfolk with swords main or in the board to fight them.

Which helps you against things like Goyf too, which can occasionally steal a Thresh game from you. However, I don't think StP is going to be enough to swing the Goblins match in your favor. IIRC, it's one of those matches that you have to just let go in order to focus on making the good ones better. Also, running a UW manabase opens you up to mana disruption from Goblins.


The main problem with pilly is not as an attacker but as a blocker. As a attacker we calm him down with propaganda.

Or that (Propaganda). That's probably one of your best shots at the Goblins matchup. Now you just need a way to keep Piledriver from blocking your Wake Thrashers (Merfolk Piledrivers anyone?).

[Nihil Credo]

Or that (Propaganda). That's probably one of your best shots at the Goblins matchup. Now you just need a way to keep Piledriver from blocking your Wake Thrashers (Merfolk Piledrivers anyone?).
Tidal Warrior + Lord of Atlantis can do the job. Hardly easy to pull off, though.

Either that or Sygg.

(Interestingly, I've made two copies of Sygg work reasonably well alongside maindeck B2B: 4 Flooded Strand and 2 Plains were enough to consistently cast it when needed. It becomes tough to drop it with 1W open, but getting to four lands is not easy in the first place.

I want to try now 3 Sygg by running 1 Plains and 1 Tundra to fetch with the Deltas. Losing one land to your own B2B seems acceptable.)

[Cabal-kun]

Tidal Warrior + Lord of Atlantis can do the job. Hardly easy to pull off, though.

Either that or Sygg.

(Interestingly, I've made two copies of Sygg work reasonably well alongside maindeck B2B: 4 Flooded Strand and 2 Plains were enough to consistently cast it when needed. It becomes tough to drop it with 1W open, but getting to four lands is not easy in the first place.

I want to try now 3 Sygg by running 1 Plains and 1 Tundra to fetch with the Deltas. Losing one land to your own B2B seems acceptable.)

True.

I've been running between 2-3 Sygg maindeck, thought not with B2B main. It's a good card to include. The color protection gives you a little more of a chance against decks that aren't running islands (color walk your Wake Thrasher right through). He also works nicely with Wake Thrasher in pumping him up. EOT, just tap as many lands as you can and grant color protection, and on your untap steps he gets an extra +2/+2 at least.

[YuanTi]

EOT, just tap as many lands as you can and grant color protection, and on your untap steps he gets an extra +2/+2 at least.

I wouldn't do that unless you're completely unafraid of removal. The most annoying thing about playing Sygg is that it completely invalidates any removal I'm holding.

I'd recommend Sygg though, because at worst he draws removal immediately, and if he sticks around, he'll give blocking tricks, and protect from whatever removal you're scared of.

[Finn]

I would seriously consider using Sygg if he (with STP included) significantly improves the Red Thresh and Goblins matchups. Something like this perhaps?

4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Wake Thrasher
2 Sygg, River Guide
2 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
3 Island
1 Plains

This version seeks to keep much of the mana denial that has worked for us up until now. It gains some protection in Sygg and STP. It loses the excellent mana base in exchange for one that is designed to work with Sygg. It also loses some card advantage in favor of more robust cards. It should have a much stronger game against Threshold, especially post-board. I am not sure about Goblins, though. I can't stand rickety manabases. And now Blood Moon has a good chance of f@cking you.

[rufus]

How does Dance of Many look to you guys? It can copy one of your own quality Merfolk, an opposing goblin, or an opposing 'goyf. If you do play UW, you could play Wanderwine hub.

[Cabal-kun]

How does Dance of Many look to you guys? It can copy one of your own quality Merfolk, an opposing goblin, or an opposing 'goyf. If you do play UW, you could play Wanderwine hub.

Losing two blue a turn is not something you want to do, even if you have Aether Vial out. If you really want to copy creatures, you can play Shapesharer.

You could play Wanderwine Hub, but what would you take out? Tundra is by far the superior choice. You can't fetch for the Hub, so it would be replacing a basic, which opens you up even more to land disruption.

[Happy Gilmore]

I would seriously consider using Sygg if he (with STP included) significantly improves the Red Thresh and Goblins matchups. Something like this perhaps?

4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Wake Thrasher
2 Sygg, River Guide
2 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
3 Island
1 Plains

This version seeks to keep much of the mana denial that has worked for us up until now. It gains some protection in Sygg and STP. It loses the excellent mana base in exchange for one that is designed to work with Sygg. It also loses some card advantage in favor of more robust cards. It should have a much stronger game against Threshold, especially post-board. I am not sure about Goblins, though. I can't stand rickety manabases. And now Blood Moon has a good chance of f@cking you.

I did some testing with the deck today and It wasn't too bad. The deck shows some potential. The weakness in my oppinion is Wake Thrasher, it was subpar most of the time. What I wan't is a threat that doesn't die to pyroclasm and works with the theme.

[georgjorge]

Good to see I'm not the only one thinking about the white splash...

So, no love for Mother of Runes ? Considering the lack of one-cc drops (even with Vial, it's good to be able to put something into play with it on the second turn) ?

[Daeniel]

Well, what about cursecather, aether vial and brainstorm as 1cc drop? Of course if you chose to run fecthlands for the 'storm... otherwise you could play some tideshaper mystic (or the "equivalent" older merfolk), but I've still to understand if it's really useful or not.

Mother of runes... well, I've never been a huge fan, so for now I'll skip her. But it could be a solution.

[Cabal-kun]

Good to see I'm not the only one thinking about the white splash...

No, you're not alone. :wink:


So, no love for Mother of Runes ? Considering the lack of one-cc drops (even with Vial, it's good to be able to put something into play with it on the second turn) ?

You could. It would be good against targeted removal, or at least serve as a sink for a spell. And colorwalking. But will it server better than another spell, or more specifically, a creature? It doesn't receive bonuses or Islandwalking from your Lord, so it's something of a tradeoff.

[sadface]

What's this? The merfolk thread has slipped to the bottom of the SECOND page? Unacceptable! I'll share my list with you guys in an attempt to prevent the thread from dying:

STANDSTILL MERFOLK

/ 20 Lands:
12 [ARE] Island (5)
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [TE] Wasteland

/ 20 Creatures:
4 [SH] Tidal Warrior
4 [LRW] Silvergill Adept
4 [TSB] Lord of Atlantis
4 [LRW] Merrow Reejerey
4 [EVE] Wake Thrasher

/ 20 Spells:
4 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [OD] Standstill

/ SIDEBOARD
SB: 4 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 2 [PS] Rushing River
SB: 4 [TE] Propaganda

I've played this list in two local Legacy tournaments in the past week with a total record of 5-1-0. My only loss came in a match against affinity in which I drew poorly and was promptly ravaged (pun intended) in two quick games.

Any thoughts on my build? Yes, I know it has no way to deal with a resolved permanent, but I don't know what to cut in order to fit some maindeck bounce. Instead I dedicate 4 sideboard slots to this purpose.

I chose to play Tidal Warrior over Cursecatcher because of his synergy with both the islandwalking ability of Lord of Atlantis and the deck's mana denial gameplan in general. He hasn't let me down so far. Together with full playsets of Wasteland, Rishadan Port and Stifle, the deck has a serious potential to screw with the opponent's manabase that shouldn't be underestimated.

And by the way, Daze has been absolutely amazing in every single game. I don't know why some of you insist playing only 3. I'd probably play more than 4 if I were allowed to...

[Barsoom]

So, let's share my list too, you can call it a more "budget" list:

4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Stonybrook Banneret
4 Wake Thrasher
4 Tidal Warrior
4 Cold-Eyed Selkie

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Aether Vial
3 Rushing River

17 Island

Easy list, with 28 merfolks, 8 counterspells, 4 vials and 3 ways to deal with permanents, and 17 basic islands.
I use 17 Islands cause at the moment i own 4 Wasteland but not the Ports, cause Basic islands are awesome, and at the end i don't like very much mana denial here.
In a short way, both Selkie and River are amazing cards, both win games on a different manner.
I love too Tidal Warrior instead of Cursecatcher, but i think at the end this is a personal preference, it's about your playstile.

Merfolk is a strong, fast & furious, and funny deck; long live Merfolks.

[Illissius]

If you run only Islands, you have no excuse not to run Back to Basics at least in the sideboard.

[Daeniel]

Last week I played a couple of games.. I guess that Selkie and Thrasher are very situational, but in more than a few occasion they won me the game.

So, I want to play at least 2 Selkie/2 Thrasher; I feel that some bounce is needed, and so far I prefer echoing truth to Rushing river, but I guess it's a matter of personal taste. I also paly 3 Psionic blast, sometime it happens to blast the opponent just out of the game when everything else seems to fail :smile:

Beside, to have a stable mana base I suggest:

4 Waste
2 Port
4 Blue fetchlands
11 Island

Does anyone have different feelings about this deck?

[bokepa]

This is the lists im toying around:

Merfolks Minions!

12x Island
4x Wasteland
4x Rishadian Port

4x Cursecatcher
4x Lord of Atlantis
4x Slivergill Adept
4x Merrow Reejerey
3x Selkie Hedge-Mage
3x Wake Thraser
2x Cold-eyed Selkie

4x Force of Will
4x Daze
4x Aether Vial
4x Stifle

Side
4x Mutavault
4x Spell Snare
3x Counterbalance
3x Sensei Divining Top
1x Gaeas Blessing

Tropical Merfolks!

4x Flooded Strand
4x Tropical Island
3x Island
1x Forest
4x Wasteland
4x Rishadian Port

4x Cursecatcher
4x Lord of Atlantis
4x Slivergill Adept
4x Merrow Reejerey
3x Selkie Hedge-Mage
3x Chameleon Colossus
2x Reef Shaman

4x Force of Will
4x Daze
4x Aether Vial
4x Stifle

Side
4x Mutavault
4x Krosan Grip
3x Counterbalance
3x Sensei Divining Top
1x Gaeas Blessing

Try em out. Help me decide wich is better!

Cards explanation:

Rish + Waste + Stifle. This is what makes the deck go vs anyone playing fetchlands and duals. Try to keep a hand with at least one.

Cursecatcher: I tryied Reef shaman and Tidal warrior in this spot. Reef shaman not being able to attack was bad more than once. And while tidal warrior was ok to steal wins via islandwalk, cursecatcher was better. I would like to play Curse + Tidal, but theres no room.

8 Lords. they pump and untap / tap stuff. I guess no more explanations needed.

3 Selkie Hedge-Mage: 4 were too many and 2 too few. This is nuts to save your own creatures or to bounce a big tarmo tombstalker etc. I tryed rushing river in this spot but i find selkie superior. At least in my creature dependant meta. And in a meta full of burn bouncing itself or another selkie helps too.

3 Wake thraser. It's strong...but so fragile...I've played chameleon colossus alongside wake thraser. I have to say colossus is better in almost everything. the problem with colossus its that to consistently playing it you have to MD reef shamans or open a lot to moon, waste etc, and i think that being inmune to moon/ waste effects its a strong point in this deck. But in a meta full of red and black, colossus would shine. Surviving pyroclasm is a good point. Having to get a vial to 4 sucks.

2 Cold-eyed selkie: I like it better than standstill. Upping the merfolk count is always good. I have alsto tryed wistful selkie but its too hard to cast. It would be stronger with reef /tidal and ummezava jitte or SoFaI wich i have to test still.


Im having better results vs agroo-control decks than the UW merfolk, but the landstill and gobos MU went a bit worse.

Gobos is still pretty bad even if you play UW and landstill is harder but winnable, just put a good clock and dont get humility resolve.

[Piceli89]

Hey, no one here ? Is this topic completely dead ?
Yesterday I played in a small tournament (18 people) and top8ed, but lost in the quarterfinals from a strange elf/survival combo deck (despites the needles sided in along with 4 stifles..). However, what i felt yesterday is that, In a meta full of Eva Greens and Simil-Rock variants ( as that was), the Monoblue "classic" version ( the one with 20 merfolks, stifles, dazes, FoWs, standstills, a couple of bouncers) isn't enough. I want to ask anybody if he hasn't felt the necessity , running this deck in a metagame full of creatures / removals and discards ( StP, vindicates, thoughseizes), to run something which can allow us to break creatures and even obtain a certain card advantage, the famous "2x1".
Yesterday I lost some matches mainly because I couldn't stand all the hand disrpution/ removals/ huge undercosted attackers (example, hierarchs, doran, goyfs... and you know what belongs this category).
To face these threats, obviously, as sameone mentioned, a splash for white packing STP came to my mind; but i thought whether blue could offer us something pretty consistent and well- working without adding a second colour. Bouncers aren't always enough to contrast an opponent.
And so Divert came to my mind; it's a mini- misdirection, which can provide the function for the aforementioned purposes, and in some cases, can surprisingly wreck opponent's plans ( i.e misdirection your vindicate/Stp/smother/hymn to tourach on your creatures/you, for example). Anyone has tested it to prove / deny its efficience ?

Another thing I really noticed: Wake thrasher is amazing, but is too fragile, and often, having 7-8 cc3 merfoks isn't the best if you are facing big and aggressive creatures, faster and lethaler than yours. I even sided out reejerey sometimes, but what I felt is that trasher is just awesome in certain matches as terrible and useless in others , and I thought that those spots could run something more "stable". Wake thrasher, moreover, can be a 10/10, but it still hasn't any form of evasion ( if oppo doesn't run any island and/or we haven't any lord on the board), which makes it quite simple to stop it.
What do you thing about thrasher, is he really worth 3-4spots ?
I think that running 2 ofs could still be a decent alternative, and , in any case, he deserves a really decent form of "universal" evasion ( and the white sygg begins to tempt me).

[sadface]

Side
4x Mutavault
4x Spell Snare
3x Counterbalance
3x Sensei Divining Top
1x Gaeas Blessing(!)


Your sideboard intrigues me. In what matchups do you play Mutavault and/or Counter-Top after sideboarding? What cards do you side out?

Also, you do not have a single card (bounce spell) that deals with annoying permanents. How is this working out for you?

I'd love to see you explain your sideboard card choices and sideboarding strategies.

[Finn]

Naturally I can't speak for Piceli, but I would say that the lack of satisfactory removal of permanents is the single biggest challenge for this deck. The difference between no removal at all and one of the many crappy answers the rest of us run is minimal. In fact, I tried splashing white for that (and access to Sygg). I was ultimately not happy with the splash, but the removal suite (Oblivion Ring and STP) were really helpful.

[Melman]

I've been playing with this deck for a while now. After reading through this thread, I think I have some insights that might help develop things a little further. First, my list; not radically different, but it fuses a bunch of ideas rather smoothly for some cool interactions:

// Lands
13 Island
4 Mutavault
4 Wasteland


// Creatures
3 Cold-Eyed Selkie
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Silvergill Adept
3 Tidal Warrior
3 Selkie Hedge-Mage

// Spells
4 Force of Will
4 AEther Vial
4 Standstill
2 Back to Basics
4 Stifle

// Sideboard
2 Back to Basics
4 Propaganda
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Rootwater Thief
2 Daze

I wont go through every card choice cause things like lords are wtfobvious, but going top to bottom, some of the controversial choices...
Mutavault: Basically the consensus is, like goblins, a deck playing aggro critters needs to pack utility lands. Now most people have been defaulting straight to the gobbo package of wastes and ports, to mess with the opponent's mana while you build up you dudes. Which is a good strategy. But I've been trying Vault, because it has synergies in this deck that are absent in goblins, and in my experience is more than worth it. It means you can play a turn 2 standstill with one or zero guys out. It means you can block (kill) piledrivers. And it's huge if you have lords. It also really messes with Warren Weirding (if you need it) and board sweepers that you somehow let resolve.

Cold-eye Selkie: Someone in this thread kind of explained this guy, but for those that missed it: he's card advantage on a stick. He's got his own islandwalk, and we play Tidal Warriors. He gets pumped by lords and starts drawing you three or something nuts every turn he isn't dealt with. And he is in a deck were the opponent really needs to deal with every creature you have, so saying he doesn't have evasion is fairly irrelevant. We don't cut lords because they get killed; this guy often will draw removal away from lords. That alone should be a big red flag, "Hey my opponent is so afraid of this guy he's killing him (if he can) before anyone else. Let's play him." Also, saving him for last means quite often they can't take care of him, which is basically gg if he swings a couple times and you aren't dead.

Adept: I don't think this is controversial, but just in case, he's a creature, a merfolk, fits the curve perfectly, and he cantrips. Pretty much the perfect card for the deck. Good synergy with vial too. Gets the spot over Banneret because you really don't have very many guys you have to worry about hardcasting and desperately needing that one extra mana. And plus, reejery is basically a warchief (and more) anyways, you don't really need another.

Tidal Warrior: Ah, the age old debate of this guy vs. Cursecatcher. This is perhaps the slot I've put the most thought into and the one I'm still least sure about. I think this guy gets the spot though, just because he fits so well. He matches the deck's sub-idea of mana denial: Warrior + Stifle + Wasteland + B2B is nothing to sneeze at, and really messes with people quite often. He allows for sneaky Selkies against decks not packing blue. He sets up alpha strikes beautifully. And frankly, Cursecatcher has just been subpar. Good players will have little trouble playing around him, whereas there is very little anyone can do about being down a color unless they got a good stable mana base hand that you can't mess with with all your other options, which is rare.

Hedge-Mage: I hate not having any way to take care of resolved permanents. Stifle resolves some scary ones, and Hedge-Mage takes care of another chunk. He's a merfolk, you play alot of islands, and you play ways to tap any creature you want (see: reejery). If you aren't up against someone you want to bounce, you can pull cool tricks with replaying Adept, or saving someone that's been blocked or nuked (via vial), or whatever. And don't forget, bouncing a swinging dreadnought, uncounterably (it's a word now biotch) is super lawls every time.

Standstill: It's such a good card, some people just aren't exactly sure how to use it. If you have a resolved vial, it's obviously amazing. Even if you don't, it's still amazing. If you have one guy out and they have zero, play it. Some people complain that it gives the opponent too much time if they let it sit, but think about it; you're playing aggro too. If they sit on their asses for a few turns letting a Warrior and a Mutavault beat their face to 10, and then try and go nuts, you either counter and stifle shit, or turn around and play a bunch of lords and kill them in one turn. Also, not many decks play manlands, so even if there's no guys on the board, it's sometimes ok to drop it, especially if you're holding a vault. Against landstill and other decks that don't really need to play anything for a while (not much of a list), board em out.

MD B2B: I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir here, but today's meta is so ridiculously dependent on non-basics, there's just not many decks where this isn't either gg or absolutely crippling. Sure, it hurts yourself a little, which is why there's only 2 MD, but it's such a good card, and if there was room I would probably play 3.

SB: Mostly obvious, cept for Rootwater which I'm still testing, he's good against any slow-ass annoying decks like landstill and ITF and shit where they are slowing things down looking for a kill, this guy just flys over and rips the kill conditions out of their deck. In theory. Not completely sure how well it will work in practice, we'll see.

I'm notorious for not liking to post matchup analysis until I'm 100% sure I know exactly what's up, so I'll refrain from making any unsupportable claims at the moment, but initial testing via some good players in an organized testing environment, and tons of crappy players in the fuckfest that is mws, suggests potential.

Possibilities:
Seasinger/Shapesharer: Possible answer to resolved big critters, other than bouncing. Seasinger straight up steals critters, and has synergy with Tidal Warriors, but shapesharer works on its own vs non-blue decks.
White Splash: Swords, Sygg, Summon the School (maybe), possibly mess with geddon affects, I dunno.
Daze instead of standstill: Denial instead of massive CA. I already explained why I think SS is better, but apparently some people feel passionately otherwise, so I'll do more testing.
Other stuff I can't think of atm, TBE
So yeah, the deck (not specifically my list, but the archetype) is just basically a pile of half-synergies at the moment. Some mana denial, some control elements, and synergistic creatures. With a little refining I think it has powerhouse capability.

[sadface]

@Melman:

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and trying to develop the deck. A few comments:

- Have you tried Wake Trasher and found him lacking? The way I see it, he competes with Cold-eyed Selkie for the same 3cc slots at the upper end of the mana curve, and in my testing he has been the superior choice. Cold-eyed Selkie requires a lord or two (and a Tidal Warrior, against many decks) in play to be great, whereas Wake Thrasher can deliver som serious beatings on his own. In many late-game scenarios I think what it comes down to is this: would you rather swing for 3 and draw 3 cards, or swing for 9 or 10 and win the game?

- Why not play both Standstill and Daze? I think not playing Daze is a serious mistake.

- You opted to play Mutavault instead of Rishadan Port. Again, why not try to fit both? I have been toying around with this mana base on MWS (I don't own Mutavaults...) with surprisingly solid results:

10 Island
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
3 Mutavault

But then again, I don't play Back to Basics.

[Melman]

-Yeah I've tried Thrasher. The problem with him is that he's only good if you're pretty much already winning, and he's just as easy to take care of as Selkie. Selkie is decent solo, because half the field plays islands. Thrasher sucks solo. That's the difference. And most of the time, Swinging for 3 and drawing three cards is a win, unless it's really really tight.
-I don't play both standstill and daze because I can't find room. They compete for the same slot imo. I would definately play daze If I could (they are in SB atm), but I don't feel comfortable cutting threats for it right now. Maybe though, I'll keep looking at it.
-And I don't play both nonbasics because B2B is much stronger than port imo, and you can't play both. Play with b2b, I garuntee you will be pleased.

[Piceli89]

@Finn: I perfectly agree with your comment, white can offer us a bunch of decent solution to front the lack of permanents' disruption blue has, but I think that splashing for a second colour may be, effectively, sometimes dangerous ( it's OUR intent to fuck the opponent in a ton of mana denial, we don't want him to do that to us).
For what concerns the mutavaults and the choice between thrasher and selkie: First of all, I think that mutavault fits quite greatly in each tribal dek -and that was obvious, but do we really need that in merfolks too ? I mean, if every tribe deck was supposed to play mutavault, then goblins too would do. Instead, I think that the reason why goblins don't play mutavault- and merfolk shouldn't too- is because we can already offer a very good amount of damagae, and mutavault would be a "win-more". I prefer having rishadan ports instead, because they can offer a decent supplement of mana disrpution, gaining tempo for us to charge vials, which is necesary in this deck. Having a beating man-land, instead, would surely offer us an aggroer plan -and more damages, consequientially, but would also allow the opponent to remain "uncontrasted" (i.e., not dealing with ballbreaker cards that ruin his access to develop his game) and overwhelm us. I think that merfolks should act quite fastly in the early game, so port is quite essential to "suffocate " opponent's lands. The only justifiable reason why I'd play mutavaults over ports would be with standstill, but , at this point, I'd rather play more cc-folks and "turn 1 critter, turn 2: standstill (possibily protected)" than " turn 1 : island, turn 2 : mutavault and standstill"- oppo: "whoops wasteland on mutavault". And i also think that it's impossible to play 8 nonbasic lands on a total of 21 and putting back to basics, the disadavantage would be consistent also for us, and Merfolk doesn't have ton of mana to spend ( as all the fish-like decks), but it must try to spend all the "resources" wisely (understand me).

Selkie and Thrashers, in my opinion, are the merfolks which are more "untrusted", and , when i say this, i mean that their ability is surely impressive, but their utility-and also, a very important feature- their casting cost- isn't as essential as the other dudes' ones.
Selkie offers a crappy body, but great drawing-ability: despite this last feature, is the drawing ability really game-breaking ? I mean, i can also draw three cards while swinging, but , if I'm losing as hell, having three more cards in hand won't save my ass ! And the fact that he's just a 1/1 for 3 -because we won't always have a couple of lords on the boards ( there are also enemy removals, i fear)- makes it suboptimal in the deck with such metagame philosophy.
Thrasher, instead , offers an offensive ability, but he's surely too fragile in oppo's turns, and, al Melman truthfully said, he's just extraordinary when winning as crappy while losing. However, I think that Merfolks DO need a " big " guy, to increase notably the damage race, and Thrasher is the only dude who can achieve this mission. Comboed with tidal warriors, he can do the difference, and sometimes win games.
I still think that he'd should be sided out (at least, I always do it) in matchups against decks which runs a noticeable amount of removals /very big creatures (aggro loam..), because it would be an excessive disadavantage (too slow to offer a good impat on the game.. spending 3 mana for a 1/1 and maybe dying from a spit) while on the contrary, he's a beast in the control- MUs, if well-protected. In conclusion, among those two merfolks, I prefer Thrasher for the aforementioned reasons, even if I recognize that they are not always optimal.


Now, I'm going on a big tourney in Milan next sunday (about 80 people) and I'm bringing the Angry Fishes. From some news, the metagame will be composed mainly by thresholds and landstills, plus some goblins and Rocks.I thought that merfolks could have great chances against these decks-even goblins, so i 'm decided to bring a list which can offer a good game against those archetypes.
Here's the list:

Lands: 19
12 islands
4 wasteland
3 rishadan port -not decided whether or not making-1port,+1 island.. the port ability is quite mana hungry , and doens't always have really beaking results..

The 'Folks -20
4 LoA
4 Adept
4 Reejerey
4 Cursecathcer
2 Thrasher
2 Tidal warrior

Spells-21
4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Standstill
2 Echoing truth
4 Vial
3 Stifle


Sideboard -15
3 Needles (landstills)
2 Chill (burn)
3 Propaganda (goblins)
3 tormod's (ichorid, aggro loam..)
1-2 Back to basics (risky move, but it's decisive against most of controls)
2-3 Thres- "hate" ( Mind harness ?)


Casting costs:
0- 19
1- 13
2- 18
3- 6
4- 0
5- 4

Mediocre resistance to CounterBalance here, but vial should save my ass.

Comments about this decklist:
FIrst of all, I wanted to put the cursecatchers because they are godly against control archetypes, and can offer a "surprise! " factor (vial catcher, counter your bomb).
I put 2 tidal warriors to get several advantages:
1) they increase the cc1 count, making the deck less unbalanced towards the 2-3 cc drops:
2 ) they 're fast and can be vialed turn 2, which is great and more "standstill-enabler" -I don't like really much waiting for 2 counters on vial every time or for always spending 2 mana for a folk and losing the first turn; in fact, I put these dudes replacing thrashers, because having 8 cc-3 folks seemed to me to be too slow and less consistent to perform a straight and fast gameplan, and some tests confirmed that i had reason;
3) their ability must not be underestimated at all. It fits perfectly , and adds a noticeable contribut to the Mana-Denial strategy. I won against landstill just transforming their tundra in a simple island, avoiding getting a Wrath of God on my face, and I think that this will perform particularly great especially against 4cc ones.

While Adept and Lords are the "unquestionable" merfolk-slots, I really began to doubt about Reejerey. I mean, he's a pumper, ok, but costs 3 and we can't always wait for vial@3 or spending 3 mana to get a 2/2, which is surely useful if paired with some mates, but alone , does suck. Even LoA is a 2/2, but it costs only 2 and offers a more deadly ability. In spite of this, I want to trust this guy for one more time, but, if it will fail, I'll seriously think about reducing the number to 3.

2 Thrashers: well, I think that i 've quietly good explainde why i run only 2 of this merfolks "-on steroids": just to avoid having a initial hand with 2-3 3-cc drops and waiting for vial to charge a 3 while my opponent beats my ass - and maybe, smashes my vial too :cry: . 6 merfolks costing 3 is enough,and, in any case, I wouldn't have run more than 2 thrashers because i need "always-useful" merfolks. They are , in certain cases, a "win-more", and, in less cases, a "whoops now i smash your face".

4 FoWs: well, this is justified. Running 3 would ruin my reputation :smile:
4 Daze: eee, this is quite delicate. Running 3 is obvious, daze is one of the most appropriate cards for Fish decks, and, along with mana-disruption, is often a complete counterspell. But I noticed that there's a little, fastidious dissinergy with standstill, if i daze on turn 1 , i'll have to wait 2 more turns to drop standstill, and this sometimes allows the oppo to land a goyf or "acreaturebiggerthenyours", and, at that point, standstill will be perfectly useless. I'm running still 4 dazes because they are soo good, but i hope that this " problem " won't occur me too often.

4 Standstill: Great in such this deck, and even greater with vial and 6 cc-1 drops. I'm still a bit undecided whether to run the "evergreen " BRAINSTORM and fetches over this, but Card advantage standstill offers create a sort of pressure towards the opponent, which, paired with the great disruption suite( mana denial and counters) this deck performs, is really awesome. Maybe i could run 3-ofs , but the possibility to land one after vial or a critter is too irresistible.

3 Stifles: Stifle generally >>>> odiern metagame. not 4 because i'd run the danger to get one in the wrong moment , for example when i need a counterspell rather than a counter-ability. Moreover, my opponents won't always break a fetch when they'll see a U open.. aaaa, if Wiz had invented the vodalian spirit guides...:tongue:
4 Vials: well..
2 Truths: permanents "removal", synergic with standstills as hell. I think that 2 is the right number.

Any comment- crytics or approvement-will be really appreciated, so I hope that someone (especially Finn) will pass near the sea to speak a it about merfolks, which seems to be a forgotten deck, while it could perform really well in the odiern metagame ( I've found a folk which is fucking huge with some cards, and I'm working on a aggro-control-combo version. merfolks are just fucking sick).
Thanks for the patience !
Piceli

[Moczoc]

To all the people who say that a color-splash will make the mana base vulnerable, here is a list that I originally made because I wanted to play both B2B AND StP (/O-Ring)

Creatures
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Silvergill Adept
2 Tidal Warrior
4 Cursecatcher
2 Sygg, River Guide

Spells
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 AEther Vial
3 Back to Basics
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Swords to Plowshares

Lands
11 Island
4 Flooded Strand
6 Plains

Sideboard
2 Swords to Plowshares
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Absolute Law
2 Seal of Cleansing

I just began to test it, but so far, I can say the manabase hasn't caused any difficulties yet :cool:

[Piceli89]

Last Sunday i got 11th on a total of 93 players, moreover, I saw other merfolk decks roaming there :tongue: It's going to be an explosion here in Italy,too.
In any case, I felt that the deck was really consistent : I got 5-2 in 7 swiss rounds , winning against UrW fish, UgB threshold, Burn, Elephant Stompy ( and a bye :tongue: ), and losing to goblins ( I got double propaganda in g2 but was destroyed by a double disenchant), and to white stax ( my opponent was extremely lucky, in g2 he set chalice @1 and@2 which cut my legs definitively-had no vial, and exalted angel really soon wpn him the game). I hope that I will reach the top8 very soon, but my general feeling was that the deck was really strong and versatile against every kind of archetype -stax excluded, to which I didn't dedicate any card, except my poor MD 2 echoing truths... :cry:
I also noticed two things:the first is that stifle is very useful, but not necessarily a 4-ofs (many other times i preferred having something else instead of it). Maybe i could cut it to 3 and add something else. The second is that Wake Thrasher is fucking amazing, no doubts about it.. Often saved my ass with a quick beatdown, too necessary to have it in 2 copies. I playe with 3 of-s at the tournament, and I fell this is the right quantity ( only because of the 3-cost which requires him some time for being casted/vialed, either way he would be dedicated a full set).

[Finn]

Congratulations, Piceli. How about a tournament report. I would love to read how some of those less common matchups went.

[1maarten1]

Hey, congratz on the result ;). Could someone give me a nice decklist? mono blue or white splash doesnt matter :P which i can test with?? (i want a list with 8 pumps, 4 cursecatcher, 4 waketrashers and 4 of the draw merfolk :P forgot the name :P) If anyone can give me such a list i would be very happy!

thanks, Maarten

[1maarten1]

4 Cursecatcher
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Wake Thrasher
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Aether Vial
13 Island
3 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
// Sideboard
3 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Hydroblast
3 Back to Basics
3 Tormod's Crypt
4 Propeganda

This is the list im testing atm, at im very satisfied about it! the main is in my eyes fairly optimised (or i must have made some major mistakes :P) Anyone got tips?

~Maarten

[electrolyze]

Hej, Maarten,

your list looks good except for one thing, and thats brainstorm. I think its not good to run brainstorm without any shuffle effects, it only gives you maybe one good card but you already know which cards your gonna take. This is not always bad but in many situations you need other cards than you already had to win, otherwise you couls have already won without brainstorm i think.

I strongly recommens tidal courier, this creature is so hard. It can let you win in very stupid situations.

My list is almost the same as yours but i feel like posting it:laugh:

Here it is:


creatures:

4xcursecatcher
4xlord of atlantis
4xsilvergil adept
4xmerrow reejery
4xwake thrasher
4xtidal courier

instants:

4xforce of will
4xdaze
4xstifle

artifacts:

4xaether vial

lands:

4xwasteland
2xrishadan port
14xisland

Side is meta dependend.

The list looks really the same as yours except for courier(which is in my eyes far better).

It works really good but I want to say how f*ing broken wake thrasher, it pulled me winning from the baddest situations you can imagine. I played against blue staxx and he had 2 propaganda, 1 smokestack, 1 maze of ith, sowered me reejery, trinisphere, chalice @1 and 2 and more insane stupid stuff. I EOT'tes a wake thresher and had lord in play and enough tapped to make it big. In my turn wasted his maze, and kicked his arse with an islandwalking 15/15 wake thresher:laugh:

And today against thresh I wiped his arse while is was at 1 and he at 5, we both had no creatures till I topdecked a thrasher. He couldnt counter it anymore and in the meanwhile he had to chumpblock with 2 4/5 goyfs after eachother:cool: Becuase I had port to tap my own land to make it bigger. Then i wiped him.

So, for what I can say I would really recommend 4 of this thing for everyone, its just sooo good.


greets, Electrolyze

[1maarten1]

I dont really like courrier. Its so slow in my eyes and if you actually play it ur throwing ur counters on the bottom of your library. I'm going to test ponder and tidal warrior. Anyone comments?:laugh: Im going to figgure out a nice sideboard later :wink:

~Maarten

[Finn]

I would not worry about the slow. If you have Cursecatchers, Dazes, Stifles, Wastelands and Ports, you will be delaying your opponent plenty so your Aether Vial gets up to four just as your opponent is recovering.

And I have nothing but praise for Wakethrasher.

[1maarten1]

I agree it aint a bad choice :P but i think there are things better like ponder or tidal warrior?

Im gonna vote trasher for president!!!

~Maarten

[Piceli89]

Oh ! So you weren't dead !! Thought you totally abandoned merfolks !
@Finn: I't s been almost 2 weeks ago when I got that tournament, so i don't remember very well the matches. But i'll try it tough. The most curious thing i can tell you is that , against a UGB thresh, I literally pwned his ass. Stifle n fetches, wastes, and the singleton back to basics put in g2 TOP DECKED prisoned him in a fuckin' great way, he didn't even manage to play a goyf or a confidant. At the end of the two games, in fact, he couldn't believe both of having lost to merfolks and that merfolks were so fucking good.. he even asked for a 3rd game, i gave him it, and he even lost for the third time XD.
What to say aboutthe other matches ?
The first I encounter a gobbo, and won the 1st round with enormous 3 lords in play; i lost the second despites having dropped a sided-in double propagadna because they both got disenchanted, and the third I mull at 5 and by turn 2, ha had a lackey-ed kiki jiki which copied his pilly and by turn 3 I had to face 3 pro-blu 9/2 pillys. Nothing to do.

I won 2-0 against a URW fish, here lord and disruption really shined, the only only thing i remember quite well is that i forced a lavamancer because it's a pain in the ass with some tiny merfolks on the ground.

I won 2-0 also against monoR sligh, quite easily, just saving my dazes for the red zone while dropping standstills with vials. game s2 I dropped an early chill which got countered, but a broken standstill gave me another chill, which slowed him too much to face my damage race.

I lost 2-o against an aAngel Staxx, game 1 mostly because i FoWed the wrong things ( magus above all, and afterwards a smoikestack), and also because my opponent was damnly too lucky. I wastelanded him, and always had another land in hand and/or drew into another. Exalted angel brought him the victory. In g2, a turn 1 chalice@1 and turn-3 chalice @2 knocked me ( a single reejerey on the ground wasn't enough). The only thing i sided againt was a humble back to basics -maybe not really useful- , because I hadn't nothing against artifcats/enchantments, apart from 2 echoing truths...

I got 1 bye, and finally won 2-0 against an elephant stompy. The first match was just epic: turn 1 he opens with ancient tomb, he tries chrome mox, i stifle the imprint, he goes with another mox, i FoW it, he passes. In my next turn, i wasteland his tomb. His turn after, he.. playes another tomb ! Goddamn fucking luck ! Afterwards , i drop some vials and begin to pray, since i emptied my hand with forces. He draws into the third mox, imprints, and plays spawnwrithe. I draw some merfoks, vial them, and block his spawnwrithe, which dies. Going along with many turns, we carry on killing our creatures blocing, while i manage to gain a little advantage froma cursecatcher and a lord of atlantis on the field. But he drops a chameleon colossus, and I fear that I won't be able to handle it for a lot of time- since we were both low at life. But.. I go into an explosive top deck, drawing a wake thrasher, which i vial in his EOT, make him become enormous tapping voidly the vials and swinging for 6-7. I just have to adfrim that i simply won that match with vials , nothing more.
In the second game, my blue-horde overruns him (despite a nasty tarmoshit on his field), but he reveals a garruk which he would have cast the turn after my victory.. fieeew

I end with 15 points, scratching the top8 and getting 11th out of 93 players, as I said. I'm planning to bring merfolks in some big tournaments again here in Italy, just because I feel that this is the perfect list I could build for it, and just because I can't stop playing merfolks. Too fuckin' consistente and STRONG deck to abandon it.
And to demonstrate that " ooo go play merfolks in t2 , that's crap here" is an adfirmation spoken by the usual assholes which can only rely on a stupid- 2cc 4/5 to win a game.

As i said, i didn't really exploit stifle in all its strength, nor rishadan port, even if they won me games with their essential "slowing" function. But i felt in love again with wake thrasher, which is nuts in a meta were you're not ALWAYS risking to get a smother or a stp as soon as he touches the ground ( even if i sided him out against gobbos in order to have more valid "ballbreaker " cards such as propaganda or chill).

[Phoenix Ignition]

As i said, i didn't really exploit stifle in all its strength, nor rishadan port, even if they won me games with their essential "slowing" function. But i felt in love again with wake thrasher, which is nuts in a meta were you're not ALWAYS risking to get a smother or a stp as soon as he touches the ground ( even if i sided him out against gobbos in order to have more valid "ballbreaker " cards such as propaganda or chill).

Hey I'm going to play your decklist at a tournament coming up pretty soon. I've been playtesting it and have been wondering a few things.

First of all there seems to be a very delicate balance with the lands. I feel like without fetches or some way of thinning the lands that I draw them too often in the end game. While the thrasher is a top deck that seems to own late game, I just don't know if having 18 lands would be better. It seems here like you didn't like the port as well as you thought you would, and I feel almost the same, like it just isn't a game changer, but sometimes messes with the LoA's mana cost.

I'm almost thinking of taking out a port for an extra tidal warrior, as the island-making ability can be almost as controlling as the port's ability.

Also, I'm really having a hard time believing that the thrasher is as good as everyone says. It seems like this deck controls enough that it can win by just using the cursecatchers and other low-costing merfolk that get pumped to bash until you win. Whenever I got the thrasher it just gets chump blocked so without evasion it seems not so good. I was testing Grimoire Thief in its place (and using 3 of them since i cut a land) and like how it's a lot like cursecatcher where it just hassles the opponent while beating face.

Also I'm still wondering what you do against the fatties that hit the board. Whenever I hit the echoing truth it's not usually enough because late game when their monsters are coming into play I usually don't have a FoW left and bouncing it just saves a turn. I'm wondering whether just switching the echoing truth out for some Isochron Shackles would be a better idea?

Also, if you really liked the thrasher during the tourny are you moving it up to 3 then or was 2 the perfect number?

Thanks!

[Piceli89]

Hey I'm going to play your decklist at a tournament coming up pretty soon. I've been playtesting it and have been wondering a few things.

First of all there seems to be a very delicate balance with the lands. I feel like without fetches or some way of thinning the lands that I draw them too often in the end game. While the thrasher is a top deck that seems to own late game, I just don't know if having 18 lands would be better. It seems here like you didn't like the port as well as you thought you would, and I feel almost the same, like it just isn't a game changer, but sometimes messes with the LoA's mana cost.

I'm almost thinking of taking out a port for an extra tidal warrior, as the island-making ability can be almost as controlling as the port's ability.

Also, I'm really having a hard time believing that the thrasher is as good as everyone says. It seems like this deck controls enough that it can win by just using the cursecatchers and other low-costing merfolk that get pumped to bash until you win. Whenever I got the thrasher it just gets chump blocked so without evasion it seems not so good. I was testing Grimoire Thief in its place (and using 3 of them since i cut a land) and like how it's a lot like cursecatcher where it just hassles the opponent while beating face.

Also I'm still wondering what you do against the fatties that hit the board. Whenever I hit the echoing truth it's not usually enough because late game when their monsters are coming into play I usually don't have a FoW left and bouncing it just saves a turn. I'm wondering whether just switching the echoing truth out for some Isochron Shackles would be a better idea?

Also, if you really liked the thrasher during the tourny are you moving it up to 3 then or was 2 the perfect number?

Thanks!


I perfectly understand what you mean, the fact with rishadan port is that it is useful in the first turns when you dropped a vial and have to slow the oppo a bit to get the vial charged. It can appear as a mana-intensive a bility, something useless, but i can ensure you that losing port (the perfect number of which is 3, not 4 because they would be too much wasteland-exposed and in conflict with the lord's UU) is really shit. Play 3 , they are perfect. And for what concerns the dissinergy with Lord, remember that merfolks has always to slow the opponent down in the first phases of the match, you don't need to cast all your merfolks immediately. Just pay attention to drop cursecatchers (which are simply amazing against almost every kind of deck) and keep ports /blue open to stifle /tap. The most wonderful thing is playing against multicolored deck, wasting and stifling demoralizes the opponent :D. In definitive, Lord can arrive also in the latter turns, just try controlling the game and , it would be better, drop it by vial (which ensures it won't be countered).
If you're going to play against "deckpackingfatties": survival and goblins are bad matches, I can't hide this to you. Creature recursion is also bad for us. In these cases, just try to counter the fundamental spells (survival for instance) and overnumber them with your blue horde. Tarmogoyf, for example, isn't scary if alone while fighting against threshold, the real problem could come from tarmogoyf along nasty burn spells against our fishes.
But a fetchable tarmogoyf with shriekmaw, flametongue kavu, etc is problematic. In that case, stifle and counters are life-saving, try to counter/ stifle survival if possible and keep them low with mana destruction(survival usually plays plenty of fetches and duals). The sideboard can offer us great ways to solve this problem, such as propaganda and , most of all, Mind Harness, which is really great against fatties (which are usually green or red: countryside crusher, terravore, goyf... ). I can assure you , however, that by the time the opponent had fatties, i already had a way to get around the situation, and here reejerey's ability to twiddle permanents ois useful as hell.

For the lands: in the last tounrament i played 20 (13 islands, 4 wastes, 3 ports) because i packed 3 thrashers , so i wanted a more numbered mana-configuration to be able to hardcast them. I feel really comfortable with this amount of mana. But if you dislike thrashy and are you going to play tidal warrior instead ( it's a matter of tastes, and I personally started to love thrashy when I saw that fuckin' giant 7/7 islandwalking fish pass around tarmoshits), play 19 lands. 18 is an excessively low count ( because, even if you'd cut thrasher, you'd still have reejereys.. and vial isn't always@3, so you sometimes need to tap mana for them).
One thing: i recommend you to avoid playing 3 thrahers ( maybe 2 ) if you're going to face a meta full of evagreen / discarders / goblins, it would be too slow and, as you said, easily chumpblocked. But against threshold, stompies, and ABOVE ALL blue-based control(landstill), a protected thrasher is insane damage race, the "merfolk piledriver " this deck needed for.

I don't play fetches because I don't feel they fit this deck, not really for losing 1 life, but for risking being stifled, which is really a matter to keep in consideration these days. And, as you know, we should stifle fetches, not being stifled :tongue: . Furthermore, without brainstorm-which does not really fit this deck-, fetch is only deck-thinning utility, simple islands are better here.

Vedalken shackles doesn't belong to this deck, too slow and too it can't be exploited properly ( we don't run esclusively islands).


Finally, I hope you'll do a good job in this tournament with my list, which i feel is really balanced and "universal " ( i.e. it can fight quite well against any archetype). Good luck dude, and most of all have fun with the 'Folks!
I'm waiting for a report afterwards :wink:

[Finn]

Also I'm still wondering what you do against the fatties that hit the board. Whenever I hit the echoing truth it's not usually enough because late game when their monsters are coming into play I usually don't have a FoW left and bouncing it just saves a turn. I'm wondering whether just switching the echoing truth out for some Isochron Shackles would be a better idea?
You could side in Seasingers for fatties. But I think the simplest solution is to kill them with something that does a lot of damage before late game happens. It would have to be a merfolk. It would have to get big enough to kill a Tarmo without itself dying. It should cost no more than 3. Hmm.

[Piceli89]

You could side in Seasingers for fatties. But I think the simplest solution is to kill them with something that does a lot of damage before late game happens. It would have to be a merfolk. It would have to get big enough to kill a Tarmo without itself dying. It should cost no more than 3. Hmm.

Wake Thrasher perhaps ? :tongue: Angry fuckin' fish beatin' green faces while attackin'

[Phoenix Ignition]

For the lands: in the last tounrament i played 20 (13 islands, 4 wastes, 3 ports) because i packed 3 thrashers , so i wanted a more numbered mana-configuration to be able to hardcast them.

So did you just take out the Tidal Warrior entirely for an extra land and thrasher?

Also I know my meta is going a bit tombstone heavy so are there any additional changes you think I should make? Other than that I know there are going to be a couple combo decks so I know this will do well against them. I know the matchup isn't the best due to excessive creature control on their part as well as big fatties. I'm thinking cursecatcher will help me out against the tombstone, and I can try to keep them off of their colors. I'm almost thinking shackles for their goyfs and just counter their tombstalkers so they waste their graveyard. Stifles are a life saver against their deeds. I'm thinking that as long as I can overrun them and stop the deeds I should be okay. Standstills might be the deciding factor in this matchup, as long as I can hope to get the vial out beforehand.

Now that I think about it, wakethrasher is a favorable card against tombstone and dead guy ale, right?

Any other suggestions are greatly appreciated.

[Piceli89]

So did you just take out the Tidal Warrior entirely for an extra land and thrasher?

Also I know my meta is going a bit tombstone heavy so are there any additional changes you think I should make? Other than that I know there are going to be a couple combo decks so I know this will do well against them. I know the matchup isn't the best due to excessive creature control on their part as well as big fatties. I'm thinking cursecatcher will help me out against the tombstone, and I can try to keep them off of their colors. I'm almost thinking shackles for their goyfs and just counter their tombstalkers so they waste their graveyard. Stifles are a life saver against their deeds. I'm thinking that as long as I can overrun them and stop the deeds I should be okay. Standstills might be the deciding factor in this matchup, as long as I can hope to get the vial out beforehand.

Now that I think about it, wakethrasher is a favorable card against tombstone and dead guy ale, right?

Any other suggestions are greatly appreciated.



Yes, i took out the Twarriors in favor of thrasher.
Combo is not a problematic MU at all, except for orim chants. Counter them, or you'll probably be dead. And remember, cursecatcher vialed as a surprise effect is PURE GOLD against these types of deck, he totally ruins their plans, so if you have one in hand, be quiet and plan to vial it when the opponent doesn't expect it.
Well, TheRock (tombstone) is really a tight match to hold, the only thing i could suggest you is trying to cut their mana since TheRock usually packs high-cost fatties (Hierarch, sometimes Baloth.. rarely Spiritmonger), so don't hesitate to daze a BoP or even stifle a Sakura tribe elder, the most important thing is they don't reach enough mana to cast the fatties and vindicates /deeds etc.. So Yes, "keep them out of colors". In g2, side in pithing needle ( be bastard, name even fetches if their playing BGW) and mind harnesses if you fear goyfs, and try DIVERT in sb; misdiriging a thoughtseize or a vindicate/smother/stp shouldn't be bad.

If you're gong to play against lots of Rocks/ Pikula, play warriors and reduce thrashers to 2, either way , prefer thrasher, which is great.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Sounds good. The one thing I'm wondering about is if I should use echoing truth. It seems good against the tombstalker, but against goyf or pretty much anything else it is just a minor inconvenience. If I play against dead guy ale or survival, it's more of a disadvantage to me to return their guys to their hands because of CIP abilities like witness's and hierarch's. I'm really considering running something like vedalken shackles over the echoing truth, since I don't think empty the warrens or ichorid are going to be very prevalent in my meta.

What do you guys think?

[loop]

I'm not sure about Echoing Truth either, at least not MD. I've been using Rushing River in the SB to take care of troublesome permanents (mostly to have an out to some non creature stuff - stax pieces or moat/prison effects) and it's been good to me so far.

As Piceli said before, Vedalken Shackles seems quite bad in a deck running only 12-14 islands. Do not run it. Besides, it seems too slow to fit in your plan. Mind Harness would definitely be better if you want to steal creatures, it's much more tempo oriented.


But I think the simplest solution is to kill them with something that does a lot of damage before late game happens.
Yup, I think Thrashers are the answer to goyf too :)
I've also been trying Relic of Progenitus in the Crypt SB slot to deal with them. Seems like a fitting replacement, since we do not use our own GY, and its being a tad slower than Crypt probably won't matter that much against Ichorid.

Here's the list I've been using, btw:

12 Island
4 Wasteland
4 Mutavault

4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Wake Thrasher

4 Aether Vial
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Standstill

SB:
4 Relic of Progenitus
3 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Rushing River
3 Hydroblast
2 Blue Elemental Blast

I've been changing the SB a lot lately, with cards like Propaganda and Back to basics coming in and out depending on the mood.
Been trying 5 BEBs because I fear gobs & loam, but Propaganda is probably a fine choice too (and it's also good against Ichorid).

About the spell package, stifle is great obviously, and much needed to complete the mana denial, especially since I cut the Ports for muta's.
Standstills have been very good with Vial and Mutas allowing you to operate fine under it.
Besides that, mmm, I've been amazed by Thrashers and would run 5 if I could get away with it. It's a great topdeck once your initial rush with Lords has been neutralized, and it can just deal the final blow on its own quite easily. EOT vialing Thrasher is one of the best plays this deck has, I believe.

[Finn]

Yeah, Relic is a no-brainer over Crypt.

And Phoenix, think about Wakethrasher from the perspective of the Tombstone player. They do not really have any creatures that can handle it. That deck is designed with the idea that its creatures will be the biggest ones on the table. So they have to use a bomb to kill it. Or at prehaps they can double block it if they can manage it. And they have to do it fast. That's awesome.

But your land destruction should trump theirs atleast half the time anyway. And vial is their nemesis.

[Piceli89]

Pros of Crpyt:
- Costs nothing, so you immediately fuck out the (opponent's) graveyard;
Slops of Crypt:
- Targets only 1graveyard, so doesn't really cut out tarmogoyf


Pros of Relic:
- It's not necessary "one shot " as Crypt, its phyrexian furnace-ability to remove 1 card per time can be quite useful if we stretch the game to long phases;
- Cantrips.
- The second Ability is fucking huge, it cuts every deck packing tarmogoyf;
Slops of Relic:
- it costs 1 and 1 to sweep waway both graveyards, so it is NOT an istant removal against ichorid, and sometimes it would be mroe useful to have a 0 costed yard removal other than waiting to have at least 2 mana to clean the toilet while a billion of 2/2 zombies are attacking us. and , of course, choing truth isn't in hand or it would require that 2 manas spent for progenitus.

However, I found relic of progenitus being more universal , in particular for the cantrip effetc and to use it as a "be warrant " against deck playing tarmoshit - just keep relice on the field , wait him to block/attack, pop Relic and he'll find a ridicolous 0/1 getting slapped by fishes. Furthermore, since he'll fear a relic on the filed, he'll be more reluctant on attacking / blocking, either with goyf or threshed creatures (mongoose for instane); just pay attention to avoid getting Relic stifled, it wouldn't be nice.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Okay so I'm still wondering about the echoing truth. It seems good against a few things that I know I won't have problems with. First of all no one in my meta has played with a Moat for a long time so I'm not worried about that. Also I don't think I'm going to need some main deck back up against ichorid or empty the warrens (I'll chance it with the mainboarded stifles). Isn't there any better card against creatures like tombstalker? I've playtested the shackles and it's just ok, and seasinger isn't going to work. Is there any other option in mono-blue?

Edit:
How about running 2 sower of temptation instead of the echoing truth since I'm pretty much only worried about the fatties?

[Piceli89]

Okay so I'm still wondering about the echoing truth. It seems good against a few things that I know I won't have problems with. First of all no one in my meta has played with a Moat for a long time so I'm not worried about that. Also I don't think I'm going to need some main deck back up against ichorid or empty the warrens (I'll chance it with the mainboarded stifles). Isn't there any better card against creatures like tombstalker? I've playtested the shackles and it's just ok, and seasinger isn't going to work. Is there any other option in mono-blue?

Edit:
How about running 2 sower of temptation instead of the echoing truth since I'm pretty much only worried about the fatties?

Sower of Temptations culbe quite well if you'd run a way to protect them, if taken alone they aren't going to live along since the incredible amount of removals legacy offers. Furthermore, its castin cost of 4 doesn't fit at all in this Fish- Like deck, where cheap critters paired with free counterspell / low.mana -costing dirsuption are the way to go.
I can really assure you btw that echoing truth is perhaps the BEST bouncer blue offers, because in certain situations, it can even offer card -advantage ( in the examples you named, ichorid and belcher , where they offer a solid protection against tokens.. stifle isn't always in hand, and can be countered / discarded too before they go off). Bouncing a couple of tarmogoyfs with only one shot doesn't seem bad at all, no ? and In my opinion ETruth is slightly better than Rushing River because it's not always possible/convenient to wait for having at least 3 lands to bounce something or even SAC a land to bounce something else. If you are a RRiver fan, i would suggest you to get a mix of echoing truths and RRiver ( i would go 2truths-1 river), even if lots of people before me have underlined how Echoing>Rushing.
Ah, don't forget that it's more likely to bounce something with truth EOT and then --> standstill in your turn, or port, daze, waste = land destruction and then bounce some stuff and make it impossible to be cast again. Do you really want to wait at least for the third turn to do this casting RRiver ?

[djeyjey]

How about "Chain of Vapor" ?

Ok, you can say it's risky to get your Vial bounced but it could fit well in the LD/mana disruption plan ???

[Maveric78f]

How about "Chain of Vapor" ?

Ok, you can say it's risky to get your Vial bounced but it could fit well in the LD/mana disruption plan ???

Why chain of vapor over rushing river ?

[Mantis]

I dont really like courrier. Its so slow in my eyes and if you actually play it ur throwing ur counters on the bottom of your library. I'm going to test ponder and tidal warrior. Anyone comments?:laugh: Im going to figgure out a nice sideboard later :wink:

~Maarten
Please, just think about the bolded statement for a second. The only thing it does is thin your deck, so there will be less Merfolk and more counters for you to draw (not that this matters due to lack of shuffle effects but just for illustration). So you won't draw less counters, that makes no sense, you will even draw more in the very long run.

[Piceli89]

How about "Chain of Vapor" ?

Ok, you can say it's risky to get your Vial bounced but it could fit well in the LD/mana disruption plan ???

Play chain of vapor and risk to get one of your win-cons bounced while you need to remove a blocker and beat with a merfolk ? Echoing truth /RRiver solves this problem greatly, chain of vapor is antisynergic as hell in a deck which packs creatures as win conditions. Leave it in ichorid , or in Storm decks.

[Illissius]

This build (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=21752) just won an 88 player tournament:

4 Aether Vial
4 Cursecatcher
4 Tidal Warrior
2 Manta Riders
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
2 Sygg, River Cutthroat
4 Merrow Reejerey
2 Wake Thrasher
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Standstill
2 Echoing Truth
3 Mutavault
3 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port
11 Island
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Mind Harness
SB: 3 Hydroblast
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Rebuild

Looks pretty iffy to me, but hey, it won.

[Luca_Girolami]

First of all, this is my first post.
I'm italian. As far as I can tell, my English level is the worst you've ever seen. My apologize in advance.

I played Merfolk in Standard for a few days: enough to remember that I don't like Standard anymore but that I still like Merfolk and the "Fish" decks they can form!:smile:

So I started to build this deck. I like it. It will be my "main" deck, I'm quite sure.

This is my take:

Creatures (22)
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Cursecacther
3 Tidal Courier
3 Tideshaper Mystic

Spells (19)
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Standstill
3 Aether Vial
4 Stifle

Lands (19)
4 Wasteland
3 Mutavault
3 Rishadan Port
9 Island

Sideboard (15)
3 Relic of the Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Wipe Away
4 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Hydroblast
1 Rebuild
1 Hurkyl's Recall

I think's that's a lot to fix, expecially in sideboard. Main is ok for the moment. My only few doubts are:
- Standstill: maybe Brainstorm could be a better choice?
- Tideshaper Mystic: It isn't always necessary, so two are enough? (-1 Tideshaper +1 Tidal Courier?)
- Something to take out to make room for the fourth Vial.

Hope this can help!
Hope you can help!

[Piceli89]

Ciao Luca (son italiano anche io),
I 've brought merfolks to some tourneys and i think i can give you some advices. It's always good to see that someone picks up merfolks.
First, aether vial is an absolute 4-ofs. It wins games alone if cast in the early turns , so you want to see it as soon as possible.
Tideshaper mystic is shit, there's another merfolk which works in a greater way and its name is tidal warrior.
Tidal courier is quite crappy, since merfolks does not haave the same goblins/elves speed, so you wont' be able to vial/cast it before the 4th turn ( excluding dazes), and revealing 2-3 merfolks ( on average) won't be as "fast-advantaging" as with the aforementioned tribes.
Lord, Adept and reejereys are all 4-ofs.
Wake thrasher is a must include, you could also run 4 of them, but since it's a 3 drop and it's quite poor in defending, i owould say 3 is the right quantity. It's the merfolks which allows o increase consistently the damage race.
daze, force and possibly stifle are a must, all in the full set.
For the mutavaults, well there are several ways of thought about this card, iìm still not fully convinved by it, but it seems to be great in (almost) every tribal deck.
If you'll join tourneys in the area of Milan we'll probably meet.. :wink:

[Luca_Girolami]

Thanks man! Your comment is very useful! I'll soon post an updated list.

[johanessen]

This build (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=21752) just won an 88 player tournament:

4 Aether Vial
4 Cursecatcher
4 Tidal Warrior
2 Manta Riders
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
2 Sygg, River Cutthroat
4 Merrow Reejerey
2 Wake Thrasher
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Standstill
2 Echoing Truth
3 Mutavault
3 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port
11 Island
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Mind Harness
SB: 3 Hydroblast
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Rebuild

Looks pretty iffy to me, but hey, it won.


This deck won a 35player tournament on sunday. They are quite similar
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=21768


Mainboard:
12 Island
4 Cursecatcher
4 Daze
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Wasteland
2 Wake Thrasher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Force of Will
3 Stifle
4 Aether Vial
3 Mutavault
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Standstill
2 Tidal Warrior
2 Rishadan Port

# 60

Sideboard:
3 Back to Basics
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Tormod's Crypt
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Relic of Progenitus

# 15

[kicks_422]

Just 2 Wake Thrashers? Aren't they the Merfolk Piledrivers?

[Cabal-kun]

Two Ports? Two Tidal Warriors?

You either go with the mana denial strategy, or you don't. Don't half-ass it with two-ofs. Sure, it won. But unless it does so repeatedly, it's nothing more than an anomaly.

[Luca_Girolami]

Working around your comments and posts, and after some searches around the net, I came up with this:

Creatures (21)
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Cursecacther
3 Tidal Warrior
2 Wake Thrasher

Spells (20)
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Standstill
4 Aether Vial
4 Stifle

Lands (19)
4 Wasteland
3 Mutavault
3 Rishadan Port
9 Island

Sideboard (15)
3 Relic of the Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Wipe Away
4 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Hydroblast
1 Rebuild
1 Hurkyl's Recall

I figured out that the structure was ok. After a few test I felt the lack of Wake Thresher and I saw how "heavy" is Tidal Courier.

Now it's time to watch at sideboard. Any comment?

[Piceli89]

Wipe away isn't that great choice for an aggro-control deck, i'd go -3 wipe away and +3 echoing truth ; furthermore, i'd even consider to put them MAINDECK because merfolks monoblue version don't have any removal.
Other sourcers previously suggested adding rushing river, but i somehow doubt about its speed, being a 3- cost card and requiring sometimes to pay the kicker cost ( which may seem to be little -disadvantage, but a land in an aggro control deck is alqays fundamental).
For the rest, I like the sideboard, it's quite balacned for facing the critical Mus. Perhaps i would try Divert , to use against black based decks and similars as rock, eva green...
Wake thrasher should be in 3x in the maindeck, Imho.

[johanessen]

Two Ports? Two Tidal Warriors?

You either go with the mana denial strategy, or you don't. Don't half-ass it with two-ofs. Sure, it won. But unless it does so repeatedly, it's nothing more than an anomaly.

New top, 67 players

1st - Aleix Dosta - Merfolks

Maindeck:
11 Island
3 Mutavault
2 Rishadan Port
3 Wasteland
4 Cursecatcher
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Silvergill Adept
2 Sygg, River Cutthroat
4 Tidal Warrior
2 Wake Thrasher
4 Æther Vial
3 Daze
2 Echoing Truth
4 Force of Will
4 Standstill

Sideboard:
4 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Echoing Truth
2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Mind Harness
2 Pithing Needle
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Umezawa's Jitte

http://www.lamaquinadeltemps.com/foros/viewthread.php?tid=783

[Piceli89]

Wow, that lists appear as a bit .."odd" to me (it seems to be more oriented toward a "blue goblins" philosophy with that huge amount of merfolks.. and the black sygg is surely unusual), but it got 1st in a 67-men tourney, so maximum respect.

EDIT: hey guys, i got a bit on deckcheck and merfolks are really kicking asses ! 22 decks , with the last 2 having reached the first position in 2 big tourneys !! OMFG this deck will become the next tier1, I always felt it, and now i'm quite confidant.
Just a thing, i noticed that the more recent lists are playing mutavaults instead of wasteland#4 and/or 1-2 ports. Has anyone tested if the 'vaults are worth this change ?

[ssilver]

Piloting a Merfolk deck, I often wish I had after-wrath affects besides FOW, and some more stuff to sit under standstill (AfterWrath now available in stores near you!). Course if you have the mana denial that doesnt really matter...

[Cabal-kun]

Just a thing, i noticed that the more recent lists are playing mutavaults instead of wasteland#4 and/or 1-2 ports. Has anyone tested if the 'vaults are worth this change ?

Again, I'll say that with Wasteland and Ports, you either want 4 or none. Don't half wing it with mana denial cards.

And yes, Mutavault is very worthwhile. I'm surprised that people haven't picked up on it sooner. The cost of making your mana base a little more vulnerable is worth being able to win games against control decks by saving a Lord of Atlantis in your hand, Vialing it EOT after they clear the board, and then swinging with Islandwalking* and pumped Mutavaults, or just pumped Mutavaults.

Edit: You can point out how many decks are doing well with that 2-3 setup, but that doesn't mean that's the reason. You could stick 2 Apocalypse Chimes in Thresh and still win +50 people tournaments. Does that mean the Chimes suddenly made your deck nuts? Really now. It's more the power of the rest of the deck shoring up a poor mana denial suite then the other way around.

[FredMaster]

Again, I'll say that with Wasteland and Ports, you either want 4 or none. Don't half wing it with mana denial cards.

You can say that as many times as you wish, but still it isn't true. You are screwing up your manabase. If you are stuck with no or just one Island in the early game, it can endanger your aggressive plan. Therefore I play 4 Waste and 2 Ports - and no Vaults.

[elof]

Hi all!

I'm new to the forum and from sweden so please, don't hold that against me.

Okej, I spent most of my yesterday playing Merfolks on mws against different decks. The overall result was positive but I have a few things that I like to discuss. For reference, here is the list I played:

Merfolks: (24)
1cc: (7)
4 Cursecatcher
3 Tidal Warrior

2cc: (10)
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
2 Sygg, River Cutthroat

3cc: (7)
4 Merrow Reejerey
3 Wake Thrasher

Spells: (16)
1cc: (4+7 = 11)
4 Aether Vial

2cc: (8+10 = 18)
4 Standstill
4 Daze

5cc: (4)
4 Force of Will

Lands: (20)
12 Island
4 Mutavault
4 Wasteland

Statistic:
Total castingcost/card: 1.467
Excluding FoW: 1.13


SB:
2 Echoing Truth
4 Hydroblast
4 Relic of Progenitius
2 Hurkyls Recall
3 Stifle




As you can see, I'm currently testing out Sygg. I was very critical to him at first but he does every once in a while happend to draw a card or two. Not sure he is the pick to make though. I have tried out Echoing Truth but found them lacking since I ran into Chalice for 2. It doesn't happen that often but still. The other bounces that are avaliable is not that good I think. Both Wipe Away and Rushing River are expensive to play, and sometimes you just want an EOT bounce to get rid of Aether Vial/a creature to make sure you can cast Standstill. And not to speak of the horrible Dreadnoughts, that however can be outraced (apperntly! this deck is sick sometimes) but it is pretty hard to do on turn 2-4.

Sygg does however answer a diffrent need and that is that he is quite a good blocker because he is a 1/3 and more often 2/4 so he holds of the most creatures in the game. Our creatures are pretty small until we have alot of lords in play and because Lord of Atlantis dosen't have islandwalk himself, he often stays at home and does nothing (of course, with 2 lords in play he has Islandwalk). It would really be nice with a flash merfolk to add to the deck, so that Merrow can tap creatures in your opponents turn. Also, playing Sygg, I put in an extra 1cc critter in order to deal more damage early so Sygg can draw cards.

Wake Thrasher is huge sometimes and at other times he is really weak. I wonder if I should cut one in order to lower the manacost of the deck. However he is good at punishing decks that become manascrewed early but mostly he just runs into a wall and becomes chumpblocked. This does however quite often leads to the fact that the rest of your critters can attack because your opponent has to block Wake. While 4 is to much, is 2 to less?

Also, I havn't quite decided on how the manabase should look. I tried out Rishadan Ports but didn't like what I saw since they consume alot of your mana. Usually when you have port you want to slow down your opponent while you build up your army but whitout vial this is really hard to do. They are good under Standstills but so are Mutavaults too. I wonder what you guys feel about it? Should we go for full on the manadisruption plan or not?

Stifles maindeck should also get a note. To often I find myself in a situation where I go first and have Stifle, Island and Vial. Most of the times I play Vial but I have tried to go for Land go and of course everytime my opponent plays around me. He plays basic or Fetch and I'm locked under my own Stifle. How do you guys play your Stifels?

Finally, the SB is a mess! I'm not sure what I want there, but between all Plauges, Vials and other massremoval, I really think that Stifle/Needels and bounce are necessary. But the question I ask is, does it help or does it postpone the inevadible? The thought I had on Stifle is that it counters alot of mass removals EE/Deed, and even Wasteland on your Mutavaults and it can also take out your opponents fetches, witch is highly effective on the play. Anyway, I need to playtest the SB alot more before I can say anything more conclusive about it. Now I have just put it together from alot of lists from deckcheck. Propagandas where in a few and I don't think they are necessary unless it's alot of Ichorid and Goblins present.



Anyway, AWESOME deck that has gotten alot of really good results in the past weeks! Keep it up!

/
elof

[MANMAN]

So...what's the general opinion of Tidal Courier? I've heard some arguments for and against him. He seems really powerful in a deck with a high merfolk count, but those decks seem less effective against the field due to the low disruption spell count. Is Standstill better?

[Piceli89]

So...what's the general opinion of Tidal Courier? I've heard some arguments for and against him. He seems really powerful in a deck with a high merfolk count, but those decks seem less effective against the field due to the low disruption spell count. Is Standstill better?

Absolutely, it is no brainer. Standstill gives 3 cards with certainy and works well with mutavaults and vial (which is the core of the deck), courie costs tons of mana, has a sucking body, needs centuries to be vialed and on average resolves giving 1-2 merfolks only. Wow.

[MANMAN]

True, but in a deck with a high merfolk count, wouldn't the Tidal Courier be just as, if not more. Also, don't forget that the Courier allows you to use Reejery tricks.

Upon further thinking, I guess it just depends on how you designed your deck.

Creature heavy (probably with Banneret) I would play Courier
Spell heavy I would play Standstill

[elof]

I think you definatly need Banneret in order to play Courier. That thing cost bloody 3U!, you should win the game the turn after it resolvs at least 50% of the time for it to be good. Also, both Banneret and Courier has a really really weak body so without lords there really not all that good.

I have currently been testing out 7 1cc dropps of merfolks and I to often found them to be to weak. It's really too bad that there arn't any merfolks out there with a body. Basically, Silvergill is the strongest one there is :/

@Piceli89:
How does your current list look like? What are the problems with the deck in your opinion?

[Piceli89]

I think you definatly need Banneret in order to play Courier. That thing cost bloody 3U!, you should win the game the turn after it resolvs at least 50% of the time for it to be good. Also, both Banneret and Courier has a really really weak body so without lords there really not all that good.

I have currently been testing out 7 1cc dropps of merfolks and I to often found them to be to weak. It's really too bad that there arn't any merfolks out there with a body. Basically, Silvergill is the strongest one there is :/

@Piceli89:
How does your current list look like? What are the problems with the deck in your opinion?


You can find my old list in the posts above in the tread,but now i'm testing a list taken from one which got 1st in a tourney. I used to play only ports and stiflesm but, as you correctly underlined, ports eat too mana, and are often not so "decisive". Mutavaults should offer theat increase of aggroness and that greater sinergy with standstill whcih should take this deck on a higher level.

creatures- 20
4 loA
4 Reejerey
4 Adept
4 Cursecatcher
3 Thrasher
1 Tidal Warrior

Spells-19
4 Daze
4 FoW
3 Stifle
4 standstill
4 Vial

Lands- 21
12 island
3 Mutavaults
2 Ports
4 Wastelands


Despites this list is really similar to mine and performs pretty well, i still find the necessity to put some MD bouncers, so maybe i'd cut 1 standstill and 1 land to put +2 echoing truths. If a dreadnought or a solitary confinement (with loam) revoles, it's almost always gg, because of the total lack of removal mono-U merfolk decks have.
Moreover, iìm still not fullt convinced of having 9 colorless lands on a total of 21 with Lord that costs UU and back to basics in side, so probably i'd drop something to make the manabase a little bit more "coloured", maybe the 2 ports aren't necessary anymore. Needs testing.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- - - - - - - -

I wanna say that I'm extremely pleased in staring on Deckcheck.net how the merfolk decks are ramping towards all the top8s. At the moment, we have 28 Merfolks piloted in the top8s in all the tournaments, also the american ones.
Long live merfolks and fuck who dislike you !

[elof]

Really solid list! After playtesting alot both yesterday and the day before I'm pretty close to your list. I will try out Ports, and I think that 2 is the best number since both Wastelands and Mutavaults are often better. Will try this.

And finally, 3 Stifle, is this card really that good? I know that it is when you use it but I have problem finding the way too use it. Sould you go for a first turn Stifle on a fetch or should you go for the defensive roll and try to Stifle Wastelands, EE, Deeds? So far, I have not been that convinced with Stifles but I will test them out.

Oh, is Echoing Truth the only good bounce there is? I friend of mine suggested Unsummon in that spot for fun, altough it didn't sound that bad. Of course, it does not answer any of our problems, I would like a card that is cheap and allows me to bounce vial/a critter before playing Standstill. Perhaps Echoing Truth does this best? Rushing River I found to be to mana intense.


Ohoh, a second oh. Just remembered you where thinking about UU for Lord of Atlantis. I have had very few problems with this, but have often tried more Tidals. It's hard to say how many islands is suffecient but I wouldn't want to go below 12. I have also noticed that I gotten to mulligan alot of hands, I think it might be because the lack of Brainstorm or it was just a fluke of bad luck. Will try more and let you know!

Keep it up merfolks!

[Piceli89]

And finally, 3 Stifle, is this card really that good? I know that it is when you use it but I have problem finding the way too use it. Sould you go for a first turn Stifle on a fetch or should you go for the defensive roll and try to Stifle Wastelands, EE, Deeds? So far, I have not been that convinced with Stifles but I will test them out.

Oh, is Echoing Truth the only good bounce there is? I friend of mine suggested Unsummon in that spot for fun, altough it didn't sound that bad. Of course, it does not answer any of our problems, I would like a card that is cheap and allows me to bounce vial/a critter before playing Standstill. Perhaps Echoing Truth does this best? Rushing River I found to be to mana intense.

Keep it up merfolks!



I perfectly understand what are you meaning with stifle, and i can ensure you that i thought that card to be God, until I brought merfolks with 4 stifles maindeck to a tournament with a good level of playing kills and realized how the metagame is aware of the massive presence of it and so every player i met thought two times before cracking fetches / bomb deed / bomb ee / lavamancer me when i had a U open. And so, i think that 3 is the correct number, since , after all, stifle > metagame ( it DOES everything) if you understand when it's the correct time to play it and ruins opponent's plans , and also when it's the time to stifle something relevant and maybe be forced also to start a counterwar and waste resources to make that stifle resolve.


For what concerns echoing truth, it is preferable over Unsummon ( i swear that i thought to that card, too, one time :tongue: ) because it bounces not only creatures, but a non land permanent in general. Do you know what it means ? That echoing truths gives us a chance to suddenly change the face of the game since the 1st game wagainst decks such as stax, dragon stompy, enchantress,and even the rock, which aren't really shining Mus for merfolks. Bouncing a smokestack / chalice/ trinisphere / solitary confinement/ pernicious deed (yes, it may occur to make them lose a time recasting it when we've not stifle ) and other pesky permanents is priceless, believe me.
Not to talk about the utility echoing truths has against goblins tokens of Belcher and zombie tokens of Ichorid, it's really nuts and can give us a little but existant possibility to race them - or, at least, to make them waste a lot of cards :wink:
And , finally, echoing truth is obviously useful when they have multiple permanents which may stall or decide the game, and with this i don't only refer to the forementioned ones , but also to tarmogoyfs, crushers, angels--> creatures bigger than ours ". Bouncing two shitty tarmogoyfs in eot and landing standstill in the turn after is fucking insane.
Ah, echoing truth seems also to perform well against mass removals, such as wrath of god in landstill; since in this MU you aren't really going to bounce anything of their permanents, you can respond to a WoG or a deed bounving your own creatures (specially if you have 2 lord of atlantis on the board and don't want to lose them)/vials ( it may happen ) to hand and leaving them with a happy face XD.
Give it try , dude, and tell me what do you think of it.

[mans0011]

Chain of Vapor might also be something worth looking at.

[Piceli89]

Chain of Vapor might also be something worth looking at.

read the posts before commenting. Chain of vapor was already badly exclused because of his antisinergy with a deck based on creatures.. we're not ANT.

[Eatatjoes]

Really solid list! After playtesting alot both yesterday and the day before I'm pretty close to your list. I will try out Ports, and I think that 2 is the best number since both Wastelands and Mutavaults are often better. Will try this.

And finally, 3 Stifle, is this card really that good? I know that it is when you use it but I have problem finding the way too use it. Sould you go for a first turn Stifle on a fetch or should you go for the defensive roll and try to Stifle Wastelands, EE, Deeds? So far, I have not been that convinced with Stifles but I will test them out.

Oh, is Echoing Truth the only good bounce there is? I friend of mine suggested Unsummon in that spot for fun, altough it didn't sound that bad. Of course, it does not answer any of our problems, I would like a card that is cheap and allows me to bounce vial/a critter before playing Standstill. Perhaps Echoing Truth does this best? Rushing River I found to be to mana intense.


Ohoh, a second oh. Just remembered you where thinking about UU for Lord of Atlantis. I have had very few problems with this, but have often tried more Tidals. It's hard to say how many islands is suffecient but I wouldn't want to go below 12. I have also noticed that I gotten to mulligan alot of hands, I think it might be because the lack of Brainstorm or it was just a fluke of bad luck. Will try more and let you know!

Keep it up merfolks!

Stifle/fetch first turn is always the right play, it throws off everything. It can result in color screw, its an instant timewalk, sometimes it might just win you the game right there. And it makes your opponent fear it and play around it

[Shimster]

@ Piceli89: Do you feel comfortable with just 3 Stifles? In my opinion, playing less than the full playset is inconsequent. You want to have one in your opening hand to stifle the first fetchland, as well as you want to stifle EEs/Deeds/Kegs, etc. in the mid to lategame.

My list looks like this:

// Lands
12 Island
4 Mutavault
4 Wasteland

// Creatures
4 Cursecatcher
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Merrow Reejerey
2 Wake Thrasher

// Spells
4 AEther Vial
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
2 Rushing River

I'd like to play three Thrashers, but the list seems to be very tight as it is right now.

In testing, the deck has been a beast against blue based control, Thresholdesque decks and fastcombo. Nevertheless, I'd had some problems with Loam (doable, if you've got a fast start) and Goyf Sligh (almost impossible for me to win preboard).

I didn't have figure out a sideboard right now, but I'd really love to see 8 cards dealing with red (either BEBs or Chill), 4 Relics and some generic anti aggro cards (Jitte?). On the other hand, CB top is good against Sligh, too ... Well, I don't know, really.

A rough draft:
4 Blue Elemental Blast / 4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Relic of Progenitus
4 Chill / 4 Counterbalance
3 Umezawa's Jitte

/Edit: I could think of cutting a Vial in favour of the 3rd Thrasher - opinions?

[Poron]

my list:

4 Rishadan Port
4 Mutavault
12 Island

4 Silvergill Adept
4 Wake Thrasher
4 Tidal Warrior
4 Cusecatcher
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Lord of Atlantis

4 Aether Vial
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
4 Daze

SB:
4 Seasinger
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Relic of Progenitus

weak spot: Wake Thrasher (yes, not a 4x imho) and Cursecatcher (often useless)

I consider Manta Rider instead of Cursecatcher and another Island instead of 1x Wake Thrasher

[elof]

@Piceli89:
I totally agre with you. I will try out Echoing Truth some more. Will also test Stifle alot more than before.

@murderface:
Yes, I know Stifling a fetch first turn is gold. I have manly problems when I keep a hand that looks something like: "landlight", Stifle, Vial. If I go for Stifle and my opponent doesn't drop a fetch, I have basicly lost my first turn and my opponent have gotten a free tempo turn. This is very important for spells like Standstill that really needs to be played before the opponent can put treaths on the board. I will try it some more before I decide.

@Shimster:
Really solid list! Have you tried Truth? With just 20 lands and 8 of them not being islands (and therefore wasteable) I can sometime have some problems reaching 2U, and also, how often do you want to play the kicker (I guess very often), doesn't this effect your landtotal? Finally, how often do you wish you had a bounce that you could have used a turn earlyer becasue you have Standstill and your opponent has [random creature]?

@Poron:
I tried something similler to your list, how is 8 1/1 critters working out for you? Isn't it a pain in the ass every time the OP plays a blocker? And as you say, sometimes Cursecatcher is worthless and in some, not to rare, cases Tidal is worthless to, what do you do then?

Manta Riders doesn't seem to good too me but I might be wrong? Some list do play them, often with Sygg. I however think it's very dependant on a lord in order to be decent.

Is Seasinger good? I have glanced at it before and wondered. To bad it doesn't have shroud :P

[Shimster]

I'm testing Rushing River and Echoing Truth, maybe I should've mentioned it in my last post. Both cards a rock solid on their own. That goes without saying. :smile: The question is, what do you want the bounce to do?

I favour Rushing River because it bounces two permanents most of the time AND evades Counterbalance easily. On the other hand, Echoing Truth is capable of handling 2+ tokens and costs just 1U.

Echoing Truth would strengthen the UWx Landstill MU, the fastcombo and Dredge MU (which is still horrible).

Rushing River would strengthen the Aggro MU (which is still in their favour) and the Thresh MU.

[Piceli89]

@Shmister: the fact with stifle is that it could be surely good in 4x, but probably if you areplaying against the random noobs you meet on mws who doesn't stop and think a bit while cracking a fetch and you have U open. In a tournament level, stifle gets more "foreseen" so, i repeat myself for another time, the opponent will think twice before activating a fetch or a mass removal. It's true that this slows down their game more or less consistently, but stifle at that point becomes an almsot dead card if they know how to play around it. And if you pack standstill in 4x ( i hope with mutavaults) and the adepts, i think that you have sufficient car drawing to get tht stifle in your hand. Since I'm testing 3-ofs,I'd even place the 4th in the side if there was room.
To your list: it seems good, but trust me when i say that thrasher deserves a 3x.That card is the most massive fish we have; i'd personally cut a stifle (:D) to fit the 3rd. But if you're decided to stay with the 2-ofs, i'd cut a land, 'cause 19 is really enough for this deck, even if this deck really needs lands (apart from having vial) to activate the mutavaults. By the way, I personally prefer echoing truth.
It's true what you have said about the fact that rushing river makes 2 for 1 , but sacrificing a land and the higher mana cost ( 3) makes it inferior to echoing truth. Why ? Because in most of the cases you really need only to bounce a permanent ( it can be something that really hurts you such as Moat or Trinisphere ), while the situation where there are 2 permanents troubling you isn't really that frequent.
You say that RRiver is better versus aggro ? I don't think so, since aggro usually runs land destruction and, in the case of thresholds /fishes, free counters such as daze. Try to reach the 3 mana while being wastelanded a bit on your mutavaults, and maybe you too have been forced to waste something in order to slow them down. I can swear you that 3 mana aren't so fast to gather with this deck as they could seem. And if you fear tarmogoyfs or Zoo creatures, just exploit what this deck has best versus creatures blocking : the pumping effect of our Lords and , most of all, the insane ability of Reejerey to twiddle everything you want when you drop a merfolk. And since Goblins is a bad MU, 3 -4 propagandas should never miss in your SB.
These , of course, are just my ideas , but they revealed themselves as being right most of the times. Just give' em some consideration, then you'll decide to make as you want :laugh:

[johanessen]

Lands 20
12 Island
3 Mutavault
3 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port

Creatures 22
4 Cursecatcher
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Merrow Reejerey
2 Wake Thrasher
2 Tidal Warrior
2 Sygg, River Cutthroat

Spells 18
4 AEther Vial
4 Daze
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
2 Echoing Truth

I like more Echoing thruth than rushing river, but it is about you.
As for stifle.. as being a tribal deck i opt to add 2 tidal warrior and 2 Sygg..
For all other cards. Ok. No more than 2 Wake Thrashers are needed.

[MANMAN]

Heres the list I've been toying around with recently:

4 Wasteland
4 Mutavault
9 Island
4 Blue fetchland
3 Trop. Island

4 Aether Vial

4 Standstill

4 Cursecatcher
4 Wake Thrasher
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Silvergill Adept

4 Force of Will
4 Daze

I've been thinking of trying out 2 Jitte in the main, cutting a Wake Thrasher and a land.

[johanessen]

Green for side board (Krosan Grip?)

[Piceli89]

24 lands, fetches without brainstorm and tropical islands for probably sb krosan grip (i hope it's not a tarmogoyf because you'd be a nerd that case) which isn't really required in this deck? MMhhhh there's something which is not clear here.
However, stifle is a must have in this deck. You posted a list where there's no stifle. With such a configuration, the opponent will just have to protect a bit its mass removal when casting it from your counters and then pop it, and popping a pernicious deed without the possbility to stifle it means losing all the permanents to this deck ( well, except the lands and so the mutavaults, but you know, wasteland exists also for the others...)
iIt's not pretty cool this thing, don't you find ?

[johanessen]

However, stifle is a must have in this deck. You posted a list where there's no stifle. With such a configuration, the opponent will just have to protect a bit its mass removal when casting it from your counters and then pop it, and popping a pernicious deed without the possbility to stifle it means losing all the permanents to this deck ( well, except the lands and so the mutavaults, but you know, wasteland exists also for the others...)
iIt's not pretty cool this thing, don't you find ?


This deck has 8 counterspells.
Also, you can cast Echoing Truth if they have no mana to play and sac in 1 turn,
And finally you have 3 manlands. Not the best you could have on board but you are not fucked totally.
I think Stifle is a waste slot in this deck

[Shawon]

I'm testing Rushing River and Echoing Truth, maybe I should've mentioned it in my last post. Both cards a rock solid on their own. That goes without saying. :smile: The question is, what do you want the bounce to do?

I favour Rushing River because it bounces two permanents most of the time AND evades Counterbalance easily. On the other hand, Echoing Truth is capable of handling 2+ tokens and costs just 1U.

Echoing Truth would strengthen the UWx Landstill MU, the fastcombo and Dredge MU (which is still horrible).

Rushing River would strengthen the Aggro MU (which is still in their favour) and the Thresh MU.

Rushing River also avoids CotV. This is important when facing White Stax.

[MANMAN]

24 lands, fetches without brainstorm and tropical islands for probably sb krosan grip (i hope it's not a tarmogoyf because you'd be a nerd that case) which isn't really required in this deck? MMhhhh there's something which is not clear here.
However, stifle is a must have in this deck. You posted a list where there's no stifle. With such a configuration, the opponent will just have to protect a bit its mass removal when casting it from your counters and then pop it, and popping a pernicious deed without the possibility to stifle it means losing all the permanents to this deck ( well, except the lands and so the mutavaults, but you know, wasteland exists also for the others...)
iIt's not pretty cool this thing, don't you find ?

It's seems pretty obvious that you don't go all in with deck. Save some bodies for post wrath effects seem pretty good to me :rolleyes:. I guess if you just want to play as many guys as possible the it's a bad strategy...

Yeah I put green in the board for some enchantment removal.

[Phoenix Ignition]

I've won 2 25-35 man tourneys with this deck, and let me just tell you, echoing truth is not needed. Why? I maindeck the Relic of Progenitus (3 of them, and run 4 waste,3 muta, 12 islands). I can't believe how amazing the card is, you can drop it first turn, let them play a tarmogoyf, then drop a standstill without fear of goofy mauling you. It cantrips when you don't need it, but right now every deck in the DTB forum and almost every other deck uses their graveyard or some type of recurrence. It turns the major threat of almost every deck into a laughable, muta-killable 0/1 dumbo. It makes thresh a walk in the park (Yeah it was before, but now it's just hillarity), it gives you at least as much help against ichorid, although echoing truth is game over as well.

Team america pretty much can't win against an early relic, IGG loop is done, rock decks can't use volrath or witness, stax can't use crucible, goyf sligh's goyf, pyromancer, and 1 barbarian ring die (but they still beat the crap out of us).

I dunno, there is no reason in my mind to not use this card. The random stax matchup isn't as important as the random goyf matchup, and as I said, the few decks that are oblivious to this card you can just use its cantrip with, which this deck also needs.

[Shawon]

I picked up this deck a day or two ago, and it;'s pretty interesting. I'm sure what I'm going to say might appear obvious to some, but keep in mind I just picked up the deck. Anyhow, here's what I found out after playing a number of games:

- I really don't like Wasteland in the deck. It's definitely NOT useless, as the ability to kill annoying lands like Glacial Chasm is pretty cool, however, what's more annoying is not being able to get UU for damn Lord of Atlantis. I just think the deck is better off with just Islands and Mutavaults. I run 17 Island, 24 Mutavault. On that note, I've been comfortable running 21 land at this point.

- Some of you are talking about running Stifle. I like Stifle, but I think it's a hit-or-miss card, thus I think running it depends on how well you know your meta. May I suggest running Spell Snare instead? So far, I MD 3 Spell Snare. Very good on the draw, obv. If you do use Spell Snare, you should side them out only if you know you're going to be on the draw for either g2 or g3 (and side out Daze for on the play g2/g3, mind you).

- Looks like most of you who posted lists agree on this, but I guess I'll be one of the first to emphasize this: 4 Standstill is a MUST. An absolute must. Most of my wins off of Merfolk have been off of drawing from Standstill. 4 AEther Vial, 4 Mutavault, cheap creatures and countermagic, always run Standstill. ALWAYS. You're crazy not to.

- Someone here mentioned that 2 Wake Thrasher is enough. I highly disagree with that notion. Wake Thrasher is one of your strongest creatures. In my playing with Merfolk, I'm almost never disappointed in seeing Wake Thrasher. It's the deck's trump card. Play 4.

- Have any of you tried Waterfront Bouncer? It's a really neat card. It seems particularly useful in this meta, as screwing over Dreadnoughts or Tombstalkers seems awesome. I'm not suggesting running this over Seasinger, by the way.

Here's my creature suite so far:

4 [LRW] Merrow Reejerey
4 [LRW] Silvergill Adept
4 [EVE] Wake Thrasher
3 [SH] Tidal Warrior
2 [MM] Waterfront Bouncer
3 [TSB] Lord of Atlantis

I took out 1 LoA because I really wanted to fit in Waterfront Bouncer.

Oh, one last observation:

Tidal Warrior is actually pretty USEFUL. I'd say it's strictly better than Cursecatcher (then again, Cursecatcher is too narrow). Not only does it allow for you to alpha strike unblocked (think Warrior + LoA), but it can act as a hoser as well. You can use it on your opp's land to shut him off a color, or 2 colorless. I used Warrior against Team America by trying to shut off my opp's Bayou, trying to to stop him from having B/G to cast Stalker or Goyf.
Like I said, I"m sure some of you noticed that, but I was pretty surprised to learn this detail about Tidal Warrior's ability. BUt yeah, it's still pretty weak so I just use 3.

That's all I have to say for Merfolk. I'm going back to campus so I won't be able to play MWS, but I thought I'd share what I learned from playing Merfolk. It really is an interesting deck and I hope it gets better.

P.S. I recommended Rushing River on the page before. Perhaps Wipe Away is way better, especially against Dreadstill.

[Phoenix Ignition]

- I really don't like Wasteland in the deck. It's definitely NOT useless, as the ability to kill annoying lands like Glacial Chasm is pretty cool, however, what's more annoying is not being able to get UU for damn Lord of Atlantis. I just think the deck is better off with just Islands and Mutavaults. I run 17 Island, 24 Mutavault. On that note, I've been comfortable running 21 land at this point.
I really think you're missing a key concept of this deck. It doesn't have a strong matchup late game to control decks, as it usually runs out of steam when running into mass removal (only running so many stifle/FoW will eventually lead to you running out). Keeping tempo is key here, and if you can slow down an opponent by wastelands and rishadan ports, you had better try. Plus 12 islands is almost always enough to play the LoA, but honestly, you shouldn't play him unless you know he won't be instantly sworded or burned. Also, aether vial doesn't care about colors, and you should get this ~44% of your opening hands.




- Some of you are talking about running Stifle. I like Stifle, but I think it's a hit-or-miss card, thus I think running it depends on how well you know your meta. May I suggest running Spell Snare instead? So far, I MD 3 Spell Snare. Very good on the draw, obv. If you do use Spell Snare, you should side them out only if you know you're going to be on the draw for either g2 or g3 (and side out Daze for on the play g2/g3, mind you).
Spell snare doesn't stop many threats to this deck, only sometimes stopping EE, and never stopping deeds/wrath/nev's disk. Stifle is an all in one card, helping you with screwing over colors of an opponent's base, while keeping a huge threat to the opponent leaving a deeds or EE on the board (keeping in mind that there's a huge threat of keeping it in their hand because you are more likely to draw a FoW).




- Someone here mentioned that 2 Wake Thrasher is enough. I highly disagree with that notion. Wake Thrasher is one of your strongest creatures. In my playing with Merfolk, I'm almost never disappointed in seeing Wake Thrasher. It's the deck's trump card. Play 4.
I'm very skeptical of this statement, and it's probably just due to you not having playtested this deck very much. Let's look at the bad matchups first. Goyf sligh wrecks this deck, and 80% of the nonland cards in that deck can ping a 1/1 thrasher right off the bat. Mogg Fanatic laughs in the face of your 3cc 1/1 merfolk, along with grim lavamancer and every burn in their deck. I've also gotten this guy sworded so many times as a 2 of, that I've actually considered dropping him. I never would because I've won some games where I drop him in and next turn swing for lethal, but you really need to take into account how easy he is to kill, and how much of an investment you're paying for it. He isn't necessary to beat your good matchups, and he just sucks in the bad ones. 2-3 is my playtested range of goodness for him.



- Have any of you tried Waterfront Bouncer? It's a really neat card. It seems particularly useful in this meta, as screwing over Dreadnoughts or Tombstalkers seems awesome. I'm not suggesting running this over Seasinger, by the way.
First off I can't believe you would ever drop a LoA for this card. But as a creature, he is very slow, has a large cost (although with your extra islands in here, I can see how you have pointless cards to pitch for his ability), and quite frankly doesn't belong in a deck that tries to gain tempo and win before the opponent catches up. If you really like the bounce that he provides (if he lives through his summoning sickness) then why not just run the echoing truths?




Tidal Warrior is actually pretty USEFUL. I'd say it's strictly better than Cursecatcher (then again, Cursecatcher is too narrow). Not only does it allow for you to alpha strike unblocked (think Warrior + LoA), but it can act as a hoser as well. You can use it on your opp's land to shut him off a color, or 2 colorless. I used Warrior against Team America by trying to shut off my opp's Bayou, trying to to stop him from having B/G to cast Stalker or Goyf.
Like I said, I"m sure some of you noticed that, but I was pretty surprised to learn this detail about Tidal Warrior's ability. BUt yeah, it's still pretty weak so I just use 3.
Haha this is great. I won't go into the obviousness of saying how everyone who played this deck knew about the LoA+ Tidal Warrior synergy. I'm just laughing at how amazing you think it is to shut people out of their colors with tidal warrior... if only they could print some lands that would also keep people off of their colors... like wasteland or rishadan port... and if only these cards could be used in a mono-colored deck that can support having the colorless by not really needing more than 2 islands to cast any spell.

On the other hand, Cursecatcher single handedly makes your life vs. TES, ANT, and Ichorid far easier. Also, used in conjunction with stifling and wastelanding the opponent's lands, you can effectively stop their removal spells on your 8 lords, or slow them down 2-3 turns. The deck likes having about 6 merfolk that cost 1 in there to make sure you get a merfolk or vial out turn 1 before your turn 2 standstill. Not to mention the always fun sneak attack vial him in to counter a spell.

[CleverPetriDish]

Yeah. I am amazed at how many people are playing Tidal Warriors. Even more amazing are the decks with Tideshaper Mystics. The alpha strike scenario is never going to happen against any deck that is decent piloted by any player who is decent. In fact, one of the weaknesses of the deck is the fact that it usually needs more than one creature in play to be effective - and this is hard to do against aggro-control and control opponents. That is the biggest reason why Wake Thrasher should be a 4-of in every single build. He kicks ass and takes numbers all by himself.

[Piceli89]

That is the biggest reason why Wake Thrasher should be a 4-of in every single build. He kicks ass and takes numbers all by himself.


Phoenix Ignition has jusy explained to all in a very explicative ( and therefore, very right) way the reason why thrasher should be in 2-3x in Merfolks, and i fully support and give reason to his considerations. Thrasher is , most of the times, as strong in certain matchups as a card you would never like to draw in others. Do you think it's strong to draw a 3cc 1/1 against the rock or sligh- or even decks packing fire/ice ? it will be automatically killed, wasting 3 manas or, if you got lucky, a vial-hit.
Do you think it's strong to draw a 3cc 1/1 against decks which tend to gain enormous advantage as the turns pass over ? Absolutely yes. Just play against white stax, understand how wake thrasher is a bomb agaisnt this archetype and you'll sonely realize that he can win alone this matchup as long as you'll overextend your permanents to save from smokestack , counter the worst threats he'll play , and try to save also 2 mana for ghostly prisons, if any. It'll be at least 6/6 that will crush the opponent in 2-3 hits ( assuming that he uses ancient tomb and gets hurt by them).
Let's adfirm that it's a card which can be as strong as the most weak in the deck, depending on the situations, so 2-3 x is the right quantity for it.
And the fact that you say that you sometimes side out a Lord of Atlantis means that you haven't got the aim of the deck properly, since lord of atlantis is the core of the deck. A 2/2 for 2 that gives islandwalk ( read: the possibility not to be blocked by the 65-70 % of the decks-thestrongest ones-too- in legacy) and +1/+1 ( read: a faster, faster race for you) is always 4-ofs, and should never be questioned among the cards to side out. The only time when you could side him out is against the mirror, if you fear that Lord of Atlantis could give your opponent an excessive advantage if he gets more lucky than you and he has more merfolks on the board ( but he'll probably think the same thing).
Even fearing to not hit the UU for him is not really a think to worry about, since in the first turn of the game you must focus on destroying opponent's mana, by wasteland , port and stifle, but also to drop vial and begn to drop the "structural" guys - cursecatcher above all, which is 2000 times stronger than warrior because legacy is a format based on creature but most of all on istants and sorceries (think to landstill, combos, and even thresh)- and silvergill adept. Then, get your lords and drop them beginning to hit like a maniac, caring that they don't get destroyed ( and here, again, cursecatcher is amazing in saving its kings' asses).

[Piceli89]

Sorry for the double post,
but
other 2 merfolks lists made top 8 in two big tourneys in spain: 1st and 2nd positions. OMFG this deck is going to become a tier1. Now i fully believe in this. SERIOUSLY.

[Phoenix Ignition]

I think that's like the 10th time in this thread that you've said you believe in this deck. Too bad magic, unlike Yu-Gi-Oh doesn't have a "believe in the heart of the cards" mantra.

On another note, no one has responded to my comments on maindecking the Relics. I would like to see more discussion on this, for the reasons I stated previously.

[Piceli89]

I said that i believe in this deck because all thnk that is a standard shit imported in legacy and consider it to be a crappy abherration just because it doesn't run 4 tarmogoyfs, so I'm very pleased to see that they weren't true about this and that merfolk is really a good deck. Now results are effectively proving this. So don't try to flame me, dude.
I am trying 2 relics maindeck ( i cut the 2 echoing for them) and testing on mws, and i feel they' re quite good, even if many times i wished they were echoings instead. However, since I'm gonna play in a meta full of threshes, I will keep them maindeck. After all, there's also a nice sinergy with thrasher, and the cantrip doesn't sound so bad even if the opponent plays a non-graveyard based deck.
Let's say that
Relic > ETruth against: Threshold, Aggro loam (not always), Team America, Ichorid (well, this depends on how fast the opponent can pull off the combo), IGG loop, Survival, The Rock (partially), and in general: decks abusing goyf, stalker and lftl.

ETruth > Relic against: Enchantress, Stax, Stompies- both Dragon and Faerie, DREADSTILL ( if a dreadnought resolves, it gets really hard, while before i had the little possibility to bounce him back), Belcher.

Of course I'm missing some decks, these came to my mind immediately.
I'll carry on testing them and I'll tell you which seem to be more useful.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Relic > ETruth against: Threshold, Aggro loam (not always), Team America, Ichorid (well, this depends on how fast the opponent can pull off the combo), IGG loop, Survival, The Rock (partially), and in general: decks abusing goyf, stalker and lftl.

ETruth > Relic against: Enchantress, Stax, Stompies- both Dragon and Faerie, DREADSTILL ( if a dreadnought resolves, it gets really hard, while before i had the little possibility to bounce him back), Belcher.

That's my point exactly. For decks it's better against you just named 7 specific decks, 4 decks coming from the DTB section. For decks it's worse against, you name 5 decks, only 1 coming from the DTB section. You can see how this card is better against every deck that isn't dreadstill, and at least with dreadstill we both run manlands, so the only thing to watch out for is a dreadnought, so you just have to make sure you have a counterspell ready, or just hope to slow them up enough to get a decent amount of folk to race it.

Also, against dragon stompy/faerie stompy, relying on a 2 of echoing truth to just slow them down a single turn isn't going to do very much. It might win the game since merfolk runs so much off of tempo and the one turn could be the game deciding turn, but in general I'd rather run a card in here that deals with 90% of decks than a card that just marginally helps against some decks.

Relic turns the 4 goyfs into a laughing stock, and cantrips when unnecessary (a huge bonus that echoing truth doesn't have except for it's ability to pitch to FoW). I run 3 just because it hoses so many decks right now. 3 echoing truth in the sideboard handle the rest of the matchups, but really the relic is just far better for the Merfolk than ET.

And think about it, when merfolk becomes something that isn't laughed at by people like the American national team, people are going to see the maindeck relics and start changing the metagame to not heavily rely on goyf/tombstalker/loam/crucible/ichorid/IGG/academy ruins/volrath's/threshold/squee.

And that's a metagame that I would love to see, since I love coming up with new deck ideas, but right now the current archetypes are too strong.

[Piceli89]

I run 3 just because it hoses so many decks right now. 3 echoing truth in the sideboard handle the rest of the matchups, but really the relic is just far better for the Merfolk than ET..

This seems good to me , could you show me your list ? because i think too that relic in 3-ofs are a good inclusion, but i can't really find room for another one.



And think about it, when merfolk becomes something that isn't laughed at by people like the American national team, people are going to see the maindeck relics and start changing the metagame to not heavily rely on goyf/tombstalker/loam/crucible/ichorid/IGG/academy ruins/volrath's/threshold/squee.
And that's a metagame that I would love to see, since I love coming up with new deck ideas, but right now the current archetypes are too strong.

I'm staring at how the deck is beginning to be played also here in italy, even if only 1 week ago it was badly despised by all the players with the "cool " decks; in spite of this, i believe that, even if merfolks will reach the DTB status, no one will really care about if we pack relic MD to the point that they'll change the configuration or their decks ( this can mean a smaller quantity of threats relying on the graveyard, or even pithing needle MD), and it's even more difficult that the'll change decks. It seems that , in magic ( or, at least, in legacy), certain decks belong to a "conservative " point of view of many players who'll never give up certain archetypes ( such as Thresh): it may become a tier2 (which very difficultly will happen), it may be pwned by merfolks, but they'll never renounce to play it.However, I'm still happy if this happens , since now i think that Merfolks is quite advantaged playing against those decks you named above, and usually the chances to win against them are very good ( of course, it depends on the players' choices and luck in drawing, but we can adfirm that relic gives a great boost in this matchups).

Well, we'll see what happens... For now, let's improve this deck.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Tournament Report:

40 some man tournament I just played in with merfolks, and I won it. I'll post my results and deck for discussion, but the only card maindeck that I'm still not completely happy with is Sygg, River Cutthroat. The deck needs to have this many merfolk though, so I won't accept a change for Sygg that isn't one. Also, Sygg is much better than Tidal Warrior, so that also will not be a substitute. 3 Stifles and 3 Dazes were the perfect number. I don't really like having 4 dazes because top decking them late game is the worst thing ever, and as this deck has a lot of those terrible cards late game (daze, aether vial, islands, sometimes standstills). Also, the relics are what pushed this deck over the top, making some almost unbeatable matchups (aggro loam) into coin flips. Rishadan ports are horrible in this deck, and I am very glad that I didn't run them. This deck needs as many islands as possible, after accommodating the 4 wastelands and 3 mutas. I have been thinking of running 1 Riptide Laboratory but haven't tried it out at all yet. Also, playing no echoing truths leaves us wide open to the Moat -> commence scoop phase, but FoW hopefully is enough.

List:

12 Islands
4 Wasteland
3 Mutavault

4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejery
2 Wakethrasher
2 Sygg, River Cutthroat

4 Aether Vial
3 Relic of Progenitus
4 Standstill
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Stifle

SB:
2 Propaganda (I call it ichoscoop)
3 Chill (not nearly enough to make burn/sligh favorable, but I couldn't in my right mind play with no SB for them)
1 Umezawa's Jitte (see chill, also good against random aggro deck)
2 Pithing Needle (vs random stuff or mishra's factory)
3 Echoing Truth (good against lots of things)
2 Back to Basics (Aggro loam and the rock)
2 Sower of Temptation (Aggro Loam and random big creature decks)

Report: Overall 6-0-3
Game 1 Match 1: Belcher deck. Game 1 I play island, daze and force his hand-emptying attempt to belcher me. Swiftly pounded him with random merfolk soon after.
SB: +3 Echoing Truth +2 Pithing Needle, -2 Sygg -3 Relic
Game 2 M1:He plays land says go, I play island, cursecatcher, say go. He then proceeds to go off, I sac cursecatcher, he RFGs a spirit guide, accumulating enough mana (7) to counter my FoW on his Burning Wish with a pyroblast and Empty the warrens for 14. I don't rip an echoing truth and die.
G3 M1:Start with a sick hand after my first mulligan, stifle, FoW, Echoing Truth, Cursecatcher, silvergill, island. He eventually empties the warrens after pyroblasting both my FoW and my Stifle on it, but scoops soon after the echoing truth hits:cool: .

1-0

G1M2:Homebrew with Cursed Scrolls. Game 1 I got out 3 lords and a mutavault while he only got a dark confidant and managed to swords to plowshares one of them. Bashed for 7, 6 (after chump block), and game respectively.
SB: didn't see the cursed scrolls, -3 stifle +2 Sower +1 Jitte
G2M2:Start out with a cursecatcher, he drops a cursed scroll. I play 2 consecutive silvergills while he puts another cursed scroll and a dark confidant out. Soon he chump blocks his bob killing one of my guys and plays Serra Avenger. Out of a hand, he proceeds to ping my guys. I take 3 flying a turn, while waiting for my vial to charge, but decide to drop a standstill so his hand will fill up. Sure enough, I pick the wrong card for 1 out of 2 cards, 1 out of 3 cards, and 1 out of 4 cards in his hand, and he is pretty mad (I would be too, but I'm a lucksack). Eventually I die to lack of outracing a 3/3 (couldn't get a lord into play since vial didn't ramp enough).
SB: -2 Sygg +2 pithing needle
G3M2:Starts out much better for me as I have a sick hand with vial, jitte, FoW, 2 lands and some folk. Looks like he got out another dark confidant and swung with it 2 times before I overwhelmed him with lorded folk and a wakethrasher.

2-0

G1M3:LED version ichorid. went first, got out a vial, he drops an LED and a land (no force in my hand). I ramp vial to 1, play a relic (and LOL at his face for that maindecked). Next turn he goes off with LED, putting 3 bridges in GY and 2 or 3 narcs into play. He therapys my hand, I Cursecatcher it, which RFGs his bridges before he gets guys. He sacs sacs 3 creatures to put a Simic Sky Swallower into play and we commence the race. I RFT his yard for good measure, but eventually get out a lord and mutavaults so I race him to 8, he can't kill me in 1 swing since I'm also at 8, so he waits and I eventually out-creature him. Who thought we could outrace a SSS?

SB: -2 Sygg, -2 Wakethrasher, -1 Reejery, +3 Echoing truth +2 Propaganda.

G2M3:Equally disgusting hand against him. First turn vial. I force his LED. 2nd turn cursecatcher, relic. He can't do much since I leave mana open for the relic, and eventually he scoops to the propaganda. Merfolk were made to beat GY based combo...

3-0

G1M4:Cephalid Breakfast variant. I play island turn 1, leave it up for stifle. He plays flooded strand, passes turn. Turn 2 I play top-decked vial + mutavault, stifle the fetch. Turn 3 i play standstill, proceed beatdown.

SB: -2 Sygg -1 daze, -1 reejery +2 Back to Basics +2 Pithing needle.

G2M4: Turn 1 relic, Turn 2 Silvergill, turn 3 Silvergill, turn 4 standstill. Game over.

4-0

Took 2 draws into top 8, against The Mighty Quinn (Woo!, I like seeing that deck place well) and an Aggro Loam.

Top 8:
Play against the Cephalid Breakfast again. Game one I get a cursecatcher out. Second turn I get a mutavault and a silvergill. I sac the cursecatcher to stop something I don't remember and play a silvergill. On his turn he therapys, at which point I have 3 force of will, 1 daze, and 1 sygg in my hand with 2 lands. I let it go since he already played a narcomoeba to sac it for anyway. He names FoW and is very happy. Next turn I swing for 4 with mutavault, and vial in a Sygg. Drawing another card. He plays a nomads en-kor with enough to get around the daze, and passes his turn. I pull a silvergill and vial it in, pulling a land, I swing for 5 and draw my last FoW. He worldly tutors for the cephalid, and get's a nasty surprise by my last FoW. I proceed to win.

SB same as before.

Game 2: I get an early relic out and we have a slow control game until eventually he gets out both creatures. He also apparently sideboarded in abeyance, which a cursecatcher and daze weren't enough to stop. Popping my relic in response since it was game over if I didn't hit anything I grab... well nothing. He proceeds to go off, running some strange variant of cephalid with Karmic Guide, Kiki-Jiki, and some Sky Hussar to make infinite tokens to swing for the win.

Well I never saw his win condition so SB: -1 Reejery -1 Thrasher +2 propaganda.

Game 3: Another good match, but I started out with a really good hand. Vial + standstill. I draw into a relic and wonder if I should have waited on the standstill, but swing away with an angry cursecatcher. Eventually he pops the standstill and drops a creature, which I sadly don't draw a FoW on. I play a relic on my turn, as well as a lord and a silvergill. I still don't draw into the force. He plays both of the creatures he needs, but doesn't get to combo off since I have a relic sitting there. After some neat combat tricks, he mills half of his deck, hoping for enough of the combo to keep alive. Goes down to the last turn, he brainstorms, fetches, brainstorms or something ridiculous like that and doesn't hit the abeyance, so merfolk proceed to bash face.

5-0-2 Into top 4.

Aggro Loam. Game one I open with a relic, which crushes him along with my other merfolk. Funny moment when he plays a terravore and we both laugh because of it's impending doom (nice player to play against)

SB -2 sygg +2 Back to basics, -1 daze, -1 reejery +2 pithing needle (for assault), -1 stifle, -1 wakethrasher +2 Sower of Temptation.

Game 2 I get a relic but keep a hand with just 1 mutavault and no vial. I struggle with 1 land for a while, eventually hit a vial, but can't stop 1 dark confidant with 2 CCrushers.

SB -2 stifle +2 echoing truth (probably a better idea from the beginning, especially against crushers)

Game 3 was a better one, I get some relics going, and then a vial. I charge with cursecatcher, and silvergill. Turn 3 I vial in a reejery, play a reejery, untap vial, play wakethrasher. Left with a vial and LoA in hand. I was dumb to do this, overextending since I could have won with less than this number out. He just so happens to have the burning wish, and do it for 3, leaving me with nothing but a vial and himself at 10 life, 1 land and 1 mox. I rip a wakethrasher (Thank God!!! since vial was at 3, leaving LoA behind) and bash for 2, then 2, then 2, then I draw a land and play the vial. BTW, everyone should make sure they know to tap vial regardless of playing things. First of all it draws out stifles sometimes, 2nd it charges wakethrasher. I win the game with him holding a pyroclasm (but not enough mana from cycling lands to grab it to be able to cast it).

Now I'm in top 2, and we agree that I will take the playset of Goyfs and he'll have the 2 trops + 2 savannahs.

So, overall this deck is ridiculously good against anything running islands, as well as combo decks. I was lucky enough to avoid the burn and goyf sligh since those are almost auto loss, and I would say aggro loam and rock are just very slightly favorable with relic of progenitus.

Relic is the VIP of this deck, and I was never unhappy to see it.

Just for whoever's interested, the top 8 were:
1&2 Merfolk & a different Aggro Loam
3&4 Aggro Loam and an odd Faerie fish deck with goyfs
5-8 Aggro Loam, white thresh, Mighty Quinn, Cephalid Breakfast

[mugs]

Sound like you did pretty well, thanks for the report and sharing deck list.

Where was the tournament?, when was it conducted?

I'm assuming as you said you just played in it so it was recent. it was a 40 some man tournament and you won two other tournaments at 25 - 35 man tourney's also with Merfolk deck recently. trying to matchup the data and find other lists from these events.


Think i found it.

[Blitzbold]

Thank you very much for your report and congrats to your finish.

You insist on using Sygg, but I noticed that you sided him out every single match. How many cards does one realistically draw of him? Isn't there really not a single other card that would fit the MD better?

[Phoenix Ignition]

Sound like you did pretty well, thanks for the report and sharing deck list.

Where was the tournament?, when was it conducted?

I'm assuming as you said you just played in it so it was recent. it was a 40 some man tournament and you won two other tournaments at 25 - 35 man tourney's also with Merfolk deck recently. trying to matchup the data and find other lists from these events.


Think i found it.

The other 2 smaller tournaments were just local tournaments and are not going to be online. The one I just won (drew into the win I guess) was from the Monster Den, and I have no idea if it will have my list or not, but I posted it so I don't understand what you're saying. It was today though.


Thank you very much for your report and congrats to your finish.

You insist on using Sygg, but I noticed that you sided him out every single match. How many cards does one realistically draw of him? Isn't there really not a single other card that would fit the MD better?

What I said was he's the weakest point, but I won't replace him with anything other than a merfolk (since we need to keep the merfolk count at least at 20). Just because you always sideboard a card doesn't mean it's bad either, it just means it's marginally okay against everything, and later you want your sideboard deck-hosing cards.

I also mentioned that I hate tidal warrior and don't think it is worth playing, but really, neither of them are. I just like how Sygg sometimes draws the extra cards. I have almost thought of using Sygg, River Guide and splashing white since it would help against sligh matchups, but mono-blue has served me very well so far.

[Piceli89]

Congrats Phoenix Ignition for the result, I'll test your list and see how it performs. Are you sure that daze in 3x is good? I found it to be incredible in a deck packing huge mana denial AND cursecather, so I'm not convinced about that quantity. Also, i noticed that several$ times you named wake thrasher as the card which managed to make great damages to oppo. DOn't you think that he could deserve a third slot , eventually cutting 1 sygg and place it as a 1-of?
You also say that burn and goyf slighs are almost auto-losses. Well, goyf sligh is surely bad, but burn isn't that difficult, to me. Why don't run Divert in sideboard then, to try arginating those matchups (along with theRock and Boros, which aren't that favorable)? I don't see Sower of Temptations as that useful, if you'd like to deal with big creatures (aggro loam's ones) you already have relic and echoing truths in side, sower is't that needed. Well, at least i think so, you're free to say no, but try divert, really, it could be useful.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Congrats Phoenix Ignition for the result, I'll test your list and see how it performs. Are you sure that daze in 3x is good? I found it to be incredible in a deck packing huge mana denial AND cursecather, so I'm not convinced about that quantity. Also, i noticed that several$ times you named wake thrasher as the card which managed to make great damages to oppo. DOn't you think that he could deserve a third slot , eventually cutting 1 sygg and place it as a 1-of?
You also say that burn and goyf slighs are almost auto-losses. Well, goyf sligh is surely bad, but burn isn't that difficult, to me. Why don't run Divert in sideboard then, to try arginating those matchups (along with theRock and Boros, which aren't that favorable)? I don't see Sower of Temptations as that useful, if you'd like to deal with big creatures (aggro loam's ones) you already have relic and echoing truths in side, sower is't that needed. Well, at least i think so, you're free to say no, but try divert, really, it could be useful.

I'm sure that I like 3xDaze but I feel like that is more of a personal choice. I figure running 3 relics is enough cantripping to make up for the lack of 1 daze and 1 land (although I think 19 is pretty good since I only mulliganed once or twice, and landscrew only happened when I consciously decided that keeping a colorless land + vial/relic was worth it). I don't think it's in our best interest to run 4 though, since we really can't waste draws on dazes late game. The saying "if people play around the daze, it has done its job" is only valid if stalling them is going to put us in a better position, but a lot of times when I'm running out of steam hoping for a top deck I wish for anything other than a daze/vial, but hit them. Cutting 1 hasn't really affected me yet.

As for removing a Sygg for a thrasher, maybe moving up to 3 would be good, but I'll have to test it. It just seems like in too many cases people can fire/ice or mogg fanatic him, but I know you know the reasons, so I guess I'll playtest him more.

Divert looks good, I actually only traded for them yesterday and didn't have them before. I probably will put them in, but it only stops 1 spell against goyf sligh, and I've already playtested throwing in a bunch of hydroblast effects which didn't at all swing the outcome of the game, especially since they sideboard in just as many pyroblast effects. The only luck I've had is with Counterbalance/Top, which takes up at least 6 sideboard slots. I'm also thinking of throwing 2 Sensei's Divining tops in the main deck, even though we have no shuffle effects, to both take out sygg and accommodate an easier sideboard for sligh, but without the shuffle it isn't going to be worth it.

[Shawon]

If you want a 1-1 Merfolk swap for Sygg, add the 4th Mutavault. It's way better than Sygg. On that note, why do you have 3 Mutas and 4 Wasteland? Mutavault wins games, Wasteland doesn't. Muta + Standstill can spell game over, Wasteland + Standstill can't.

I think Sygg sucks, too, as it does nothing by itself, it needs other dudes in play to be good. It's also a horrible topdeck like Daze. I'd go as far as to say Tidal Warrior is better than Sygg.

"Wake Thrasher can be burned/StP'd" isn't a strong enough argument not to optimize Wake Thrasher. When removed, it's always going to be just 1-for-1. If you're worried about Mogg Fanatic, that's why you have 7-8 Lords to prevent Mogg Fanatic from pinging Wake Thrasher.

[Phoenix Ignition]

If you want a 1-1 Merfolk swap for Sygg, add the 4th Mutavault. It's way better than Sygg. On that note, why do you have 3 Mutas and 4 Wasteland? Mutavault wins games, Wasteland doesn't. Muta + Standstill can spell game over, Wasteland + Standstill can't.

On the contrary, wasteland wins me many games. I would say 15% of the games I win are due to the mana denial strategy that merfolk can take, stifling and wastelanding to keep enough tempo to win. While wastelands don't end the game, their mana denial has. Mutavaults are no good if the opponent has plenty of life and a creature out. If a muta gets chump blocked you lose both a creature and a land, so tempo goes very much in favor of the opponent. Under standstill, you can win with a mutavault, yes, but that's only if the opponent has a 1/1 or no creatures. These cases are where I drop a standstill anyway, since you can take 1 or 0 damage a turn and wait to top deck into 1 of 3 mutavaults. I use this play all of the time, and it always ends in the opponent cracking the standstill.



I think Sygg sucks, too, as it does nothing by itself, it needs other dudes in play to be good. It's also a horrible topdeck like Daze. I'd go as far as to say Tidal Warrior is better than Sygg.


While I agree he is not the most optimal card for this spot, swinging with a cursecatcher and a mutavault to draw an extra card is huge. I have done this many times as well, and as I would run 6 Silvergill Adepts if I could, this guy is the closest thing to extra card advantage I could find.

I have however now replaced him with Whirlpool Rider, and I think WR is probably one of the best choices out there. I never play all my islands or vials if I already have plenty out, both to fool the opponent into thinking I have a force, and because the vials could all get EE'd or deeded. Now, later on in the game when I have all of these saved up, I drop in a whirlpool rider and draw into good cards. Also, it's amazing after they crack your standstill and you're looking for a Force, to vial him in and draw however many cards that was.



"Wake Thrasher can be burned/StP'd" isn't a strong enough argument not to optimize Wake Thrasher. When removed, it's always going to be just 1-for-1. If you're worried about Mogg Fanatic, that's why you have 7-8 Lords to prevent Mogg Fanatic from pinging Wake Thrasher.

A 1 mana Mogg Fanatic for a 3 mana Wake Thrasher is not acceptable. Sure, you can say 1 for 1, but you can say that about thoughtseize as well, and we all know thoughtseize is a bomb. Test the deck out vs. goyf sligh a few times and you'll find that 8 lords aren't enough to turn a wakethrasher into a 2/2. I've never had a lord stick for more than a turn. This is another case where mutavault sucks, as losing tempo to any burn deck is usually going to end in a loss.

[jazzykat]

This deck is that good and I am glad that people are starting to see it. While I have not played against templar goblins I am convinced it is better than old goblins!

I feel that Wakethrasher is excellent but I can't decide if you need 4 or not. I played against a list which was very much analogous to old goblins with 4 port and 4 wasteland and in that list Wakethrasher was insane.

[georgjorge]

Have you never had problems with Standstill taking tempo out of the game, hurting your tempo cards (Stifle, Daze, Cursecatcher, Vial) and overall mana denial strategy ? Playing against that deck and against Dreadstill, I've noticed that waiting a few turns and then cracking Standstill DOES give you cards, but the overall advantage isn't much because some of them will most likely be useless or not very good. I'm not sure +2 CA for two mana, as nice as that is, is worth letting your opponent catch up on tempo. And the deck IS based on tempo very much, you won't win a game where you trade your cards 1-for-1 against your opponents' cards over a longer time, because all of your threats except Thrasher look stupid on their own.

Also, Whirlpool Rider looks at least interesting, like a worse Adept (and that sounds like a good thing).

[Phoenix Ignition]

Have you never had problems with Standstill taking tempo out of the game, hurting your tempo cards (Stifle, Daze, Cursecatcher, Vial) and overall mana denial strategy ? Playing against that deck and against Dreadstill, I've noticed that waiting a few turns and then cracking Standstill DOES give you cards, but the overall advantage isn't much because some of them will most likely be useless or not very good. I'm not sure +2 CA for two mana, as nice as that is, is worth letting your opponent catch up on tempo. And the deck IS based on tempo very much, you won't win a game where you trade your cards 1-for-1 against your opponents' cards over a longer time, because all of your threats except Thrasher look stupid on their own.

Also, Whirlpool Rider looks at least interesting, like a worse Adept (and that sounds like a good thing).

I have never had problems with standstill taking away tempo from me, since you really get to choose when you play it. The thing is, usually you drop a vial or your threats before the standstill, and by the time you get the standstill down, all you have in your hand is counterspells or stifles. By that time you already ran out of tempo and are just surfing on the wave of your creatures in play. If I am using the mana-denial strategy, I will only play the standstill after I have at least 2 threats on board. In this case, it's almost always a good idea, because even with mana denial, all the opponent needs is 1 land to swords to plowshares your guys, and stall until they drop a threat.

I've never had a problem with standstills, except for sometimes, as you said, it doesn't draw what you want. Usually the turns of stalling that it provides where the opponent does nothing are enough to draw into things you want, as well as do enough damage to bring them very close to death.

Whirlpool riders are winning me games that I otherwise wouldn't. The accumulation of islands and vials in my hand is now just fuel for when I do hit one. I'm almost thinking of taking out 1 of something else to have 3 of them in the deck. It also lets you free mulligan into sideboard cards if that is the case.

[Piceli89]

I've been playing with rishadan ports as a 3x in my former versiona and now I'm testing mutavaults. I'd got to say that vaults offer a little advantage versus some decks ( counterslivers in particular), but I'm not still convinced that they're better than my ol' ports. Sometimes i just realized that a further beater was just unnecessary and i'd rather have had a port to mana-deny my oppo, while other times i won games thanks to mutavault.
What do you guys think about those 2 lands ? Do you think it's possible to find a configuration which packs both ? i was thinking to something like 3 wastes, 2 ports and 3 vaults to add both, but in this case i'd have to cut a waste and i think it's the only colorless land which deserves an automatic 4-ofs; moreover, i don't want to cut too many islands, since we need them to play daze and , sometimes, hardcast Lord. I'm convinced that, without port, the deck loses too much of its strength ( the disruption part) to play more like "goblin-esque " tribe style. On the other side, it's also true, for example, that goblins can afford to play ports because of lackey that cheats mana, while we're not that fast.
I tried to look on merfolks that made top8 on DeckCheck.net and i noticed that many are turning their ports into Mutavaults, while others are still keeping a mixed tuning. However, there's no one still playing only ports without mutavaults, that's for sure, but still I'm not totally convinced.

@ Phoenix Ignition: does really Whirlpool Rider deserve a 2 slots in that deck ? i think they're wassted. I mean, it's surely a good card if you draw it into lategame while you have plenty of dead cards, in hand, but what about having it in your initial hand ? you'd have to shuffle eventual good cards to draw, maybe, some shit. It's too risky IMO, just depending on strokes of luck-or unluck.
Not to consider that he'd always remain a cc2 1/1 (almost) vanilla creature, and i think that , at this point, there are other merfolks with way more interesting abilities.
If i was going to run rider, i would not go over the 1-of. There are way more stronger merfolks (both in body and in abilities) to abuse, rather than that one.

[Wrath_Of_Houlding]

First, a quick bit of introduction. I’ve been playing Magic for about three years, but have never played any proper Legacy, primarily due to card/opportunity restrictions. But, I live very close to Chicago and this seems like the perfect opportunity. I’m interested in playing Merfolk, so I want to know what you think of this decklist for testing.

4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejeray
3 Wake Thrasher
4 Silvegill Adept
3 Cursecatcher
1 Whirlpool Rider

3 Relic of Progenitus
4 FoW
3 Daze
4 Standstill
4 Vial
3 Stifle

10 Islands
4 Wasteland
3 ‘Ports
3 Mutavaults

No idea for sideboard yet. Assuming no major changes in Conflux, what kind of meta do you think will appear at Chicago, and what should I test for sideboard? Thanks!

[Piceli89]

First, a quick bit of introduction. I’ve been playing Magic for about three years, but have never played any proper Legacy, primarily due to card/opportunity restrictions. But, I live very close to Chicago and this seems like the perfect opportunity. I’m interested in playing Merfolk, so I want to know what you think of this decklist for testing.

4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejeray
3 Wake Thrasher
4 Silvegill Adept
3 Cursecatcher
1 Whirlpool Rider

3 Relic of Progenitus
4 FoW
3 Daze
4 Standstill
4 Vial
3 Stifle

10 Islands
4 Wasteland
3 ‘Ports
3 Mutavaults

No idea for sideboard yet. Assuming no major changes in Conflux, what kind of meta do you think will appear at Chicago, and what should I test for sideboard? Thanks!

I think that cursecatcher in merfolk should be a 4x. However, for the sideboad, even if merfolks list tend to be very various in the cards to choose to get in g2 and g3 because of the metagame and of the cards that are more likely to be faced, I'd go something like this:

3 propaganda: goblins and very aggro decks tend to overwhelm us. Ichorid and EtW isn't happy with this, too.
0-1 relics: if you really fear yard based decks.
3 Chill or BEB: against burn, sligh, and , again, against goblins.
2-3 Pithing Needles: versatile aghainst plenty of things.
2-3 Divert: mini-misdirections to be cast against removals/disruption.
2-3 echoing truths: again, these should be sided in against noughts but also that decks against which you're expecting pesky cards ( i think most of all to Moat and Engineered Plague). useful also against stax and stompy, ofc.

Hurkyl's recall: if you're expecting lot of artifact-based lists.
Mind Harness: Since you pack relics MD, these aren't needed anymore that much.

I personally don't like Umezawa's jitte in Merfolks, but feel free to put it in sideboard if you feel the necessity to race aggro and you don't want to use propaganda. What's sure is, don't even consider Seasinger for Sb slots, she just sucks.

[Phoenix Ignition]

@lands: I used to just run 4 wastes, 3 ports and did well with that strategy. I then obtained mutavaults and ever since I've just run 4 wastelands and 3 mutavaults. The reason why is that now standstill gains us inevitability. Before, I had to actually do work and make sure I had something on the board for standstill to help me at all. Now I can plop a standstill down if the opponent has a 1/1 or less on the board, since I will eventually draw into the mutavault and win if they don't crack the standstill.

The thing that really did it for me was when I took out a land. I think 12 islands is the absolute least amount you can use in the deck. Since I only had room for 7 other lands I went 4 wastes 3 mutas. The thing about port is that it costs too much and doesn't guaruntee a mana denial. I couldn't tell you the number of times I've attempted to tap a land on their upkeep and they just use it for an instant in response. Usually I have to keep from playing something as well, to save those 2 lands. I know that the ports create a good synergy with wastelands and stifles, but they don't win as many games as mutavault, and they sometimes actually lose games. If you are going to run 20 lands I would do 12 islands, 4 wastelands, 1 port, 3 mutavaults... but the 1 port just seems awkward.

@Whirlpool Rider: He really is good in here. Early game you can pitch him to FoW without thinking too much and late game he turns extra islands (that weren't thinned out from fetches) and vials into playable cards. I have also had much success with opponents cracking standstill with something important and myself not drawing a FoW, but with whirlpool rider, I vial him in and get 9 other shots to hit it.

You say there are many other merfolk, even stranger ones, that would fit better. I've looked through every merfolk in the game a few times, and I've playtested 8 of them in this slot. Sygg, white Sygg, Mirror Entity, Inkfathom Infiltrator, Tidal warrior, Tidal Courier, Manta Riders, and a couple other white-splash merfolk all don't cut it. I'm wondering which merfolk you mean. The Sapprazzan heir (I think his name is) is not worth it, as you give the opponent the choice of whether you draw cards or not, and that is never a good thing to do in my experience. The other merfolk either cost too much for what they do, or are shitty milling cards. Did you actually have any in mind or were you just saying that and hoping I'd come up with a better creature?

@Wrath: You need 12 islands at least. Right now you're running 10 islands 10 colorless lands, but you always want an island to play first turn, whether it be for stifling purposes, cursecatcher, daze, or just saving your wasteland so the opponent feels safer playing their non-basic lands.

Also, I agree with Picelli that you absolutely need 4 cursecatcher. He is the reason that you will never lose to combo, that your lords live extra turns to deal a lot more damage, and he is great after you get a reejery out to tap permanents cheap. Not to mention, he's the best way to help abuse your vial ramping.

I really like the following sideboard:

3 Echoing Truth
2 Propaganda
2-3 Back to Basics
2-3 Divert
2-3 Pithing Needle
~anything else fill with Jitte (I think it's good against certain decks that this one has troubles with), anything that will help you against goyf sligh (but it's pretty bad for you already) such as Mind Harness, Chill, and BEB/hydroblast.

Pithing needle and divert are decent against goyf sligh, make sure to keep their Figure of Destiny and Grim Lavamancer in check with needles if you can. Divert is decent but usually doesn't win you the game against them.

Jittes are slow and I agree they aren't needed in here, but against decks that have a ton of creature hate you need them. All of our folk are good in groups but aside from thrasher, suck by themselves. Jitte can really move the game in your direction.

[Piceli89]

@lands: I used to just run 4 wastes, 3 ports and did well with that strategy. I then obtained mutavaults and ever since I've just run 4 wastelands and 3 mutavaults. The reason why is that now standstill gains us inevitability. Before, I had to actually do work and make sure I had something on the board for standstill to help me at all. Now I can plop a standstill down if the opponent has a 1/1 or less on the board, since I will eventually draw into the mutavault and win if they don't crack the standstill. .
Hoping that the opponent doesn't wasteland your mutavault, since waste is a common land in a legacy metagame... And 3 mutavaults doesn't assure you to draw it surely on 60 cards...You'd hve to wait a bit, and hope they don't get in something bastard like a mishra's factory.. Well, your wastelands at least could resolve this



You say there are many other merfolk, even stranger ones, that would fit better. I've looked through every merfolk in the game a few times, and I've playtested 8 of them in this slot. Sygg, white Sygg, Mirror Entity, Inkfathom Infiltrator, Tidal warrior, Tidal Courier, Manta Riders, and a couple other white-splash merfolk all don't cut it. I'm wondering which merfolk you mean. The Sapprazzan heir (I think his name is) is not worth it, as you give the opponent the choice of whether you draw cards or not, and that is never a good thing to do in my experience. The other merfolk either cost too much for what they do, or are shitty milling cards. Did you actually have any in mind or were you just saying that and hoping I'd come up with a better creature?

To be honest, i thought you could fit in a 1x of tidal warrior or another wake thrasher, even if i know dthat you dislike warrior (which could serve, after all, also as a mana denier, and since you have cut ports, this shouldn't be that bad..) and you want to stick with 2x of thrasher. I realized that even 1x Black sygg isn't that bad, since he has a decent body a a blocker and sometimes can give you extra cards.. but, since you did a tourney with him and said that it's not that useful, i'll respect your choice of playing Riders, even if i consider it not worth of being played as a 2 or even 3-ofs when thrasher is the only merfolk which is good standing alone, and we desperately need a blue piledriver to go off with the race quickly.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Hoping that the opponent doesn't wasteland your mutavault, since waste is a common land in a legacy metagame... And 3 mutavaults doesn't assure you to draw it surely on 60 cards...You'd hve to wait a bit, and hope they don't get in something bastard like a mishra's factory.. Well, your wastelands at least could resolve this

Notice I said against 90% of the decks out there. The thing about your wastelands is they kill opponents wastelands without 2 for 1ing your lands unless you did stupidly play a mutavault with their wasteland out there.

And again, I would say that at most 10% of decks run mishra's factories, so obviously don't be stupid and drop a standstill against them, as they are more equipped to handle it unless you have a vial out or way more creatures...




To be honest, i thought you could fit in a 1x of tidal warrior or another wake thrasher, even if i know dthat you dislike warrior (which could serve, after all, also as a mana denier, and since you have cut ports, this shouldn't be that bad..) and you want to stick with 2x of thrasher. I realized that even 1x Black sygg isn't that bad, since he has a decent body a a blocker and sometimes can give you extra cards.. but, since you did a tourney with him and said that it's not that useful, i'll respect your choice of playing Riders, even if i consider it not worth of being played as a 2 or even 3-ofs when thrasher is the only merfolk which is good standing alone, and we desperately need a blue piledriver to go off with the race quickly.

I really don't want to go half-assed on my mana denial strategy and then run tidal warrior. It's either run ports + tidal warrior or neither in my opinion, as you can screw the opponent over and make up for your excess of colorless mana with the warrior. Wakethrasher, as I've said many times, can be a 2 or 3 of. He is the piledriver of merfolk, but I really don't think goblins and merfolk can be compared anymore, as merfolk are going much more towards control and combo matchups than pure aggro. I really think this is more of a metagame call though, since paying 3 for an instantly dead 1/1 is not worth it. I prefer running 2 whirlpool riders since they give me so much better card selection once I hit them.

[Piceli89]

Phoenix, I was wondering a merfolk that perhaps you didn't see: Shapesharer (he's a changeling). Well it's not quite a merfolk, but it could solve some of the problems of this deck ( copying a dreadnought or an exalted angel in mid or late games isn't that shit), although being pretty mana-intensive. Some of the posters of this thread called him sometimes ago, personally i found it to be quite slow, but maybe if we pack 2 Relics instead of echoing truths, it could cover what the missing truths cannot any more, i.e. having a sort of protection against obsolete fatties.
What do ya think?

[Berzerked]

Doesn't seem like all too bad of a suggestion. How cool would it be to vial one in the face of an attacking Goyf while you have a lord in play. Doesn't seem too out of the ordinary. It can also trade with Dreadnoughts/Stalkers by itself. Idk, I guess I'd need to test.
Is there any way to copy your own Wake Thrasher before untapping without him turning back into crap? If so that would be doubly insane (Or, Doubly + 2(3) to be exact).

[Piceli89]

Is there any way to copy your own Wake Thrasher before untapping without him turning back into crap? If so that would be doubly insane (Or, Doubly + 2(3) to be exact).

I fear it's not possible, but since I'm pretty a noob on card interactions, I'll wait for someone else to answer.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Phoenix, Shapesharer
What do ya think?
Interesting. I remember people thinking that he sucked before, and I never gave him more thought. I think he does require more testing, since I can see a use for him with the metagame right now being Tombstalker, Dreadnaught, other fatties (Loxodon Hierarch, Doran, Goyf without relics, Terravore).



Is there any way to copy your own Wake Thrasher before untapping without him turning back into crap? If so that would be doubly insane (Or, Doubly + 2(3) to be exact).

I'm not sure how this ability triggers its end effect. I'm used to being able to get around things like cleanup steps with Kiki-Jiki, but it seems like this effect ends at the start of your turn, and therefore you can't cheat something into being a wakethrasher and getting the +1/+1 effect of it, seeing as I don't think you can use it before you untap. On the other hand, he does mean you can effectively run 10 lords, or like you said Picelli, run free dreadnaughts.

I'll give him a shot and tell ya what goes on.

[Shawon]

Cool find on Shapesharer. But allow me to play devil's advocate. What makes this guy better than Waterfront Bouncer? Shapesharer can become a Tombstalker/Dreadnought/Goyf, but Shapesharer still doesn't remove any of those creatures to stop them from blocking you. Furthermore, Sharer can be killed in resp to his ability. That's an even worse tempo loss than StPing Wake Thrasher. Waterfront Bouncer solves the blocker problem, and it lives to be able to do it again. Given the format, it "kills" two of Legacy's biggest creatures, Dreadnought and Tombstalker.

[Aj-capra]

The last 7 days I tested this deck.
I prefer play Ug list because in SB trygon predator and krosan greep are very very strong, but in mono U list back to basics is very very strong.

For me misdirection is better than divert because I can play it the first turn (my opponent started).
In late game misdi is better too.
I must peach a card, but isnt a big problem.

If my opponent plays turn one : swamp + dark ritual + seize or hymn misdi is GOODDDD!! With divert I suck!!!

A little question: why in American metagame relic of progenitus is playing maindeck? I prefer to play echoing/rushing river or wipe away.

ps : sry for my little english

[Phoenix Ignition]

Cool find on Shapesharer. But allow me to play devil's advocate. What makes this guy better than Waterfront Bouncer? Shapesharer can become a Tombstalker/Dreadnought/Goyf, but Shapesharer still doesn't remove any of those creatures to stop them from blocking you. Furthermore, Sharer can be killed in resp to his ability. That's an even worse tempo loss than StPing Wake Thrasher. Waterfront Bouncer solves the blocker problem, and it lives to be able to do it again. Given the format, it "kills" two of Legacy's biggest creatures, Dreadnought and Tombstalker.

After playtesting Shapesharer, I realize why he wasn't used before. He really isn't that great against most decks. The only creatures we need to worry about are Tombstalker and Dreadnaught, and out of those two, we can race tombstalker (since 80% of the decks that run him have islands). Dreadnaught on the other hand is not usually raceable if they get him out early, but we do have a lot of disruption to make sure he doesn't make it out there turn 2. Overall I'd say shapesharer is much worse than the Whirlpool Rider.


The last 7 days I tested this deck.
I prefer play Ug list because in SB trygon predator and krosan greep are very very strong, but in mono U list back to basics is very very strong.

For me misdirection is better than divert because I can play it the first turn (my opponent started).
In late game misdi is better too.
I must peach a card, but isnt a big problem.

If my opponent plays turn one : swamp + dark ritual + seize or hymn misdi is GOODDDD!! With divert I suck!!!

A little question: why in American metagame relic of progenitus is playing maindeck? I prefer to play echoing/rushing river or wipe away.

ps : sry for my little english

I think Merfolk are as good as they are because they don't worry about splashing colors that aren't really needed. Trygon and K-grip are good, but I'm not sold that they're worth the extra possibility of having our manabase disrupted, especially when we already run 7 colorless lands.

You may be right about the misdirection. I don't really like running them and Force of Will because we don't get as much card advantage as we'd like, and divert works in 95% of the cases that Misdirection does.

American Metagame has so many decks that rely on the graveyard that Relic is definitely worth maindecking (and it cantrips when you don't want it). Merfolk have trouble with early goyfs, so this is a great fix. Other than that, Ichorid, Aggro Loam, any deck with Crucible of Worlds, Life from the Loam, Tombstalker, Grim Lavamancer, Jotun Grunt, Terravore, Tarmogoyf, and even combos that use Ill-gotten gains and Cabal ritual. I would say this card isn't sideboarded out against 90% of the decks out there.

[Aj-capra]

This is my testing list:

// Lands
11 [ALA] Island (1)
4 [TE] Wasteland
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4) <-- I don't have mutavault yet!

// Creatures
2 [EVE] Wake Thrasher
4 [LRW] Merrow Reejerey
4 [TSB] Lord of Atlantis
4 [LRW] Silvergill Adept
2 [SH] Tidal Warrior
4 [SHM] Cursecatcher
2 [MM] Waterfront Bouncer
1 [AP] Whirlpool Rider

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [OD] Standstill
3 [NE] Daze
3 [SC] Stifle
4 [DS] AEther Vial
2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus

Tidal Warrior is good for denial and for islandwalk

[JeroenC]

I'd probably drop the two Relics and add the last Stifle and Daze or Landstill.

[Phoenix Ignition]

I'd probably drop the two Relics and add the last Stifle and Daze or Landstill.

I would completely ignore this... I'd guess it's a first time reader of the forum.

If you have them you should run rishadan ports instead of the mishra's factories. They're still good, but I think the lack of merfolkness would be more of a detriment, and since you run tidal warriors anyway, you're going to have a much better time of mana-denialing them.

Standstill is one of the best cards in the deck, I would never run less than 4, also you're running 18 lands, which is bad since you don't have cantrips. Use 12 islands or try to get lucky drawing into them.

-1 relic for +1 creature seems fine, but honestly, Relic takes tournaments by storm.

[Aj-capra]

I'd probably drop the two Relics and add the last Stifle and Daze or Landstill.

If I drop 2 relics I put 2 echoing, but I play 2 bouncer already.

@edit : Phoenix Ignition can you post a good list for me? With/without vault. Thanks very much!!

[Phoenix Ignition]

If I drop 2 relics I put 2 echoing, but I play 2 bouncer already.

@edit : Phoenix Ignition can you post a good list for me? With/without vault. Thanks very much!!

List I won the 40 man tournament was using Sygg, River Cutthroat instead of Whirlpool Rider, but this is the list I currently would have used:


12 Islands
4 Wasteland
3 Mutavault

4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejery
2 Wakethrasher
2 Whirlpool Rider

4 Aether Vial
3 Relic of Progenitus
4 Standstill
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Stifle

SB:
2 Propaganda (I call it ichoscoop)
3 Chill (not nearly enough to make burn/sligh favorable, but I couldn't in my right mind play with no SB for them)
1 Umezawa's Jitte (see chill, also good against random aggro deck)
2 Pithing Needle (vs random stuff or mishra's factory)
3 Echoing Truth (good against lots of things)
2 Back to Basics (Aggro loam and the rock)
2 Divert or Misdirection(All around good against stuff)


So I'm not sure that Mishra's Factory is going to be better or worse than Rishadan Port... you should playtest that. It might not matter that it isn't a changeling (although that helps your Meathooks matchups more for sure). If you would rather go the mana-denial route I would probably run:

List w/o Mutavault.
12 Islands
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port

4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejery
2 Wakethrasher
2 Tidal Warrior

4 Aether Vial
4 Standstill
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Echoing Truth
3 Stifle

Probably something like this. Your main goal is to win before they can really do anything. Echoing truth takes care of whatever they manage to put on the field. Use it at the end of their turn to take care of their threats, then drop standstill. Make sure no one has green mana for an early goyf or it gets rough. Relic would probably need to find a place in your sideboard against decks with Life from the Loam, but I've won games with this list before they had a chance to cast anything other than LftL.

Don't use bouncer in this list. He's so incredibly slow that it just isn't worth it. I know he has good synergy with standstill, but you should make a different deck altogether for that synergy.

[Barsoom]

Another Merfolk top8 here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=306585&postcount=117) out of 77 people... with no Wasteland, and 2 Bouncers!
This deck is growing more and more everyday; it got a DTW status for me; maybe we need a good Primer on the opening post now, that's a little outdated.

[Piceli89]

Another Merfolk top8 here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=306585&postcount=117) out of 77 people... with no Wasteland, and 2 Bouncers!
This deck is growing more and more everyday; it got a DTW status for me; maybe we need a good Primer on the opening post now, that's a little outdated.

Yes, this is absolutely true. People are caring so much about the recent successes of Team America , but they can't see how merfolks are doing top8 both in America and Europe sometimes even more than TA. On DeckCheck, there are about 30-31 Merfolks having hit the top8 - also in big tourneys. Is it enough to give it a [DTW] tag ?
I think it would be the time both to recognize the strengths of this deck and give it a decent and updated primer. I'd like to make it for a part, but It would be better if someone could help me ( since i'll be surely criticized for something that i'll write XD).
Phoenix Ignition, would you like to write something about Folks, since you did very good results, if you have the possibility to ? I could help you if you want.

P.S. In the list you gave to Aj without mutavaults , I'd go -1 truth +1 daze to harden the mana denial package, since daze is extremely synergic with ports and cursecatchers. Just an annoying observation :wink:

@Aj: (ciao , ti ho incontrato una volta su Mws e tu giocavi Team America, poi mi hai chiesto delle cose su un torneo di Milano. Sei rimasto impressionato dalla potenza dei Pesci, eh? :D)
I think that misdirection, although being a good card, doesn't really fit in merfolks.
Divert/misdirection are designed to be sided in against those deck against which a blue-based fishesque deck sucks ( The Rock in particular, and , as you were mentioning, MonoBlack Discard ) because they run cheap removals which often make us in a situation of "virtual " disadavantage. I Explain myself better: many times,, playing against Rock, i found myself spending 3 mana to cast reejerey and then, it gets StP'ed with them tapping a single mana. This can be considered as a sort of "mana " disadvantage because I "lost" my resources that turn laying something which got removed with less mana than the amount i used for it ( i know it's a bit an intricate concept, but try to understand it ).
The only consistent form of protection we have agaisn the rock casting his removal/disruptive bombs ( thoughtseize,vindicate, smother, Stp, ecc, and soon i think PathtoExile) is Force Of Will, which reuries a loss of 2 cards. Daze and cursecatchers are surely good as counters, but they lose their efficacy as the game goes on, and particularly more if you are playing a decklist less based on mana denying the opponent ( the one with mutavaults, to be clear).
Divert is optimal here, and superior to Misdirection, because it allows to turn this " virtual disadvantage " which we suffer into both virtual and card disadvantage for them:
just Diverting a StP or,even better, a Vindicate on them so that they lose creatures or lands, slowing them consistenly and allowing us to ramp to our gameplan a bit more "safely".
You could say that Misdirection does this in the same way, but Misdirection requires also a card to be pitched, so it would be "2 for 2" ( for example, if you divert a Stp on his confidant, he loses 2 cards, bt you also do).
Divert doesn't have this weakness, since it usually does "1 per 2" ( since it doesn't require anything to be pitched to it), so IMO it's >> than misdirection. A single mana to be spent is worth this advantage, i guess. Just float U always , in these matchups.
Ah, not to mention that you can trick them with divert, since you can cursecatcher/daze a spell in order to make them waste the mana and then divert it onto their permanents/themselves, or you can do also the contrary, diverting it to make them pay and, so,lose mana, and then daze/catcher that spell. I know this is 2x1 for them, but this is to be used only in critical situations. Divert, in fact, should be cast in the early phases, waiting to cast it too much could make it perfectly useless or playable around.
It's a "difficult " card, since you have to be able to bluff to make them cast that spell to divert on themselves, but i assure that it's completely worth that SB slots.

[Aj-capra]

@Piceli : ciao bello tutto bene? Ora che ricordo ti avevo chiesto il metagame. Pesci mi affascina, ma a volte non mi convince. Cmq mi trovo meglio con la lista Ug.

I tested U list and I losed a lot of games, but with Ug list I losed not mutch.
Tarmo and trygon are very important for me!!!

[Phoenix Ignition]

Phoenix Ignition, would you like to write something about Folks, since you did very good results, if you have the possibility to ? I could help you if you want.

I would be happy to, but as it is right now, even with people winning with the list no one thinks it is worth playing. So I would be happy to write up a new primer with all of the new updates and such, but right now the demand for it seems pretty low. Also, I would need your imputs on a sideboard and matchup %s. I have my own data, but it would be much better to throw yours in as well. PM me your sideboard, matchup %s, and how many maindecked relics, thrasher, daze, and open slots you think there should be.

Also on that new list at the 70 person tournament, I'm happy to see people are trusting my advice on using Relic of Progenitus Maindeck :wink:.




I tested U list and I losed a lot of games, but with Ug list I losed not mutch.
Tarmo and trygon are very important for me!!!

I really think this has to do with how you're playing the deck. We have had plenty of results, including my own, that testify to how well this deck works as mono blue. Can you tell us what matchups you had troubles against and which ones you were wishing for tarmogoyf and trygon (you play trygon maindeck?). This deck isn't as simple as it seems, and it sure as hell doesn't use the goblins strategy of playing everything while keeping an eye on overextending. If you were using the mana denial deck I posted, it plays much much differently than the mutavault deck.


Also, you can "lose a lot of games" with any deck, which doesn't necessarily say anything about the deck itself. The only decks in my opinion that can win even with a bad player are ones that pack goyf because it doesn't take a genius to know that low-cost big creature turns sideways 4 times and wins game.

[Piceli89]

Also, you can "lose a lot of games" with any deck, which doesn't necessarily say anything about the deck itself. The only decks in my opinion that can win even with a bad player are ones that pack goyf because it doesn't take a genius to know that low-cost big creature turns sideways 4 times and wins game.

Therefore, logically speaking, we can conclude that 80% of the decks are piloted by bad players. :laugh:
Just joking, but you're right when you say that losing doesn't mean " bad deck ", It may be also because of the player, who doesn't know to fit in every situation on the board on simply hasn't understood what the deck he handles aims for. i'm not saying it's your situation, but often happens this. I am the first to admit that I'm not able to pilot decks which appear to be "simple" as Ichorid, but with merfolks, it's just another story.

And i fully quote the fact that this deck DOESN'T need tarmogoyf to win, too. Splashing green means : tropical island--> wasteland; fetchlands--> stifle; more nonbasics than basics--> Moon effects and B2B hurt you; 4 slots for goyf--> 4 slots lost for something else which , surely, perfectly fitted with the merfolks philosophy.
At this point, if you feel the necessity to put something extern than merfolks, put Dreadnought, at least it's synergic with stifle and doesnt require a 2nd colour. But, surely, it would weaken something else.

[Nekrataal]

I went 3:4 on the renown Iserlohn tourney in Germany with Merfolks. After a good start 3:1 I went a little bit unlucky loosing at least 2 Matches on the edge of a knife.

Wins were against DragonStompy (easy), NGQ/r (good and hard fight against his red direct damage especially), UB Faeries (one game I lost to an online Jitte which was needled Game 3).

Losses against: GoyfSligh (this is an autoloss, boy I was whacked badly seeing a Game 2 Shusher in action and Counters moldering in my hand), Team Amerika (which I lost to bad draw at least one game. Game 1 although 2 Standstill in a row => just found 5 lands and a Vial, Game 2 went on for a while until I couldn't hold back his Tarmogoyf anymore, my folks got decimated by his spot removal slowly but surely and Merfolks are only strong in multiples against Goyf and Stalker for racing), NGQ/w with Counterbalance/Top (Game 1 went on for a while where I could beat him down quite well but got stuck on 2 Mana and couldnt keep up the pressure, Game 2 he got a Counterbalance online after a Counterwar over it and that was Game), Evagreen (which was really really close. I had him down to 2 Game 3, but a Spotremoval and a Tarmogoyf saved the day for him).

Lessons learned in general: Big guys are a problem if they stall the ground or come in the air. Usually you could win by racing them and pumping your guys... but Spotremoval really is bad for your merfolks because it usually is played on Lord or Rejeerey which in turn makes your guys smaller and allows to block favourably for your opponent. In addition it takes away the chances to race which is your only path to victory against lone, bigger creatures. Merfolks are only strong in multiples and you have to have means it stays this way. Therefore I will definitely play Divert/Misdirection SB next time (maybe even Main 1 or 2 Slots). Against Team America or EvaGreen this could turn the matchup either by bending their discard or their spotremoval against them. And against 5 of the Decks running 4 Goyfs main it is needed to keep the capability to race your opponent.

Lessons learned sideboard choices: BtB helped in just one Game (NQG/r) because the guy was running almost no basics. All other list I played against were prepared for BtB or Moon action and played 3-4 basics land of each colour. Propanganda was not worth the slot. Goblins do not see much play in Europe and the only matchup it could shine is Combo with Empty the Warrens or Bridge from below but is probably to slow as compared to Echoing truth. Needles were good against Jitte in Evagreen and Faeries and Jitte is a must counter otherwise. I probably will rather play a third needle then the lonely Jitte myself next time. Hydroblasts were OK but the Goyfsligh matchup is just so very bad that it didnt matter. Maybe Chill would be slightly better (other choices I didn't really find. Next best would be Hibernation, High Seas, Flashfreeze, Douse or Gilded Drake which is all not that great and maybe requires at least 8 SB slots to be effective). On the other hand I am not sure if this matchup is even worth a slot because it is still bad after sideboarding. Divert is a must have for me for sideboard next time especially against decks running B or R Spotremoval for creatures.

Decklist was:

//Lands
12 [MR] Island
4 [TE] Wasteland
3 [MOR] Mutavault

//Creatures
4 [U] Lord of Atlantis
4 [LRW] Merrow Reejerey
4 [LRW] Silvergill Adept
3 [EVE] Wake Thrasher
4 [SHM] Cursecatcher

//Spells
4 [OD] Standstill
2 [DS] Echoing Truth
4 [DS] Aether Vial
4 [NE] Daze
3 [SC] Stifle
1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
4 [AL] Force of Will

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [US] Back to Basics
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2 [MI] Mind Harness
SB: 2 [TE] Propaganda
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [5E] Hydroblast

Thanks for all the helpful input from this merfolk thread here. It made me play this deck and it was a lot of fun to play (and it actually made me register and post a comment ;) )

[Phoenix Ignition]

Losses against: GoyfSligh (this is an autoloss, boy I was whacked badly seeing a Game 2 Shusher in action and Counters moldering in my hand), Team Amerika (which I lost to bad draw at least one game. Game 1 although 2 Standstill in a row => just found 5 lands and a Vial, Game 2 went on for a while until I couldn't hold back his Tarmogoyf anymore, my folks got decimated by his spot removal slowly but surely and Merfolks are only strong in multiples against Goyf and Stalker for racing), NGQ/w with Counterbalance/Top (Game 1 went on for a while where I could beat him down quite well but got stuck on 2 Mana and couldnt keep up the pressure, Game 2 he got a Counterbalance online after a Counterwar over it and that was Game), Evagreen (which was really really close. I had him down to 2 Game 3, but a Spotremoval and a Tarmogoyf saved the day for him).

3 Mainboard relics are plenty to stop goyf and tombstalker. It also looks like you could have used the advice on using 2 Whirlpool Riders for the mana flood you drew with the Standstills. Sideboarded echoing truth for stifles should take care of the Tombstalker. I really think this matchup is an autowin. None of their disruption should work on you, and you have vials. Relic is autowin. They have 4 snuff out for spot removal, which shouldn't be enough to kill you unless you play aggressively, but they can't play Tombstalker and Goyf is a 0/1 vs. you for Relic.



Lessons learned in general: Big guys are a problem if they stall the ground or come in the air. Usually you could win by racing them and pumping your guys... but Spotremoval really is bad for your merfolks because it usually is played on Lord or Rejeerey which in turn makes your guys smaller and allows to block favourably for your opponent.

Don't play stupidly. That is to say, expect the mana they saved to be used during your attack on your lord. You can always wait to attack with a Thrasher, or have 2 LoA out.



In addition it takes away the chances to race which is your only path to victory against lone, bigger creatures. Merfolks are only strong in multiples and you have to have means it stays this way. Therefore I will definitely play Divert/Misdirection SB next time (maybe even Main 1 or 2 Slots). Against Team America or EvaGreen this could turn the matchup either by bending their discard or their spotremoval against them.

What big creatures are there after you turn their Goyf into a 0/1, and make their Tombstalker unplayable? I've only run into Doran, and Loxodon Hierarch, and both of these are easy enough to race.



Lessons learned sideboard choices: BtB helped in just one Game (NQG/r) because the guy was running almost no basics. All other list I played against were prepared for BtB or Moon action and played 3-4 basics land of each colour. Propanganda was not worth the slot. Goblins do not see much play in Europe and the only matchup it could shine is Combo with Empty the Warrens or Bridge from below but is probably to slow as compared to Echoing truth. Needles were good against Jitte in Evagreen and Faeries and Jitte is a must counter otherwise. I probably will rather play a third needle then the lonely Jitte myself next time. Hydroblasts were OK but the Goyfsligh matchup is just so very bad that it didnt matter. Maybe Chill would be slightly better. On the other hand I am not sure if this matchup is even worth a slot because it is still bad after sideboarding. Divert is a must have for me for sideboard next time especially against decks running B or R Spotremoval for creatures.

Yes, don't copy the sideboard list of this deck if you don't play where the people who made it do. It is always a meta choice.





Decklist was:

//Lands
12 [MR] Island
4 [TE] Wasteland
3 [MOR] Mutavault

//Creatures
4 [U] Lord of Atlantis
4 [LRW] Merrow Reejerey
4 [LRW] Silvergill Adept
3 [EVE] Wake Thrasher
4 [SHM] Cursecatcher

//Spells
4 [OD] Standstill
2 [DS] Echoing Truth
4 [DS] Aether Vial
4 [NE] Daze
3 [SC] Stifle
1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
4 [AL] Force of Will

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [US] Back to Basics
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2 [MI] Mind Harness
SB: 2 [TE] Propaganda
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [5E] Hydroblast
You underestimated the effect Relic has for this deck. It improves goyf sligh, wins against Team America, completely beats Threshold, and does various things against other decks. Also, as I've been arguing for a long time, you need at least 20 creatures in the deck. Any less and you are going too much into the control aspect, but as you found out, this deck can't stall forever. There are few situations where I'd want echoing truth maindeck over relic, since turning a goyf into a 0/1 is better than bouncing it. Killing a terravore is better than bouncing it. Preventing a Tombstalker is slightly better than bouncing it.

[Nekrataal]

Well thx for your quick response. Ah well Whirl Pool Rider to compensate bad luck naaah ;) Most of the times Standstill had good draws. Although, if you propose creature No. 20 there would be one free job for a merfolk in that list. Or it could be 1-3 Dreadnaughts instead?

About the Relics you are quite right. I actually played them after reading here how good they are but decided to go with Echoing Truth thinking it more versatile. Actually they weren't. So as an effect I sided 1-2 Echoing Truth out almost every game. Relique on the opposite was very good. Of course I played with all 3 in Game 2 against Team America but you miss 2 things: you have to draw it (or mulligan for it depending on starting hand) and you have to foresee Stifle: In my Game 2 against TA I could hold off the Goyf quite well being a 2/3 at max for a time ... well but unfortunately as I had to blow it (because Goofy was about to grow), it got stifled :/ something I should have expected from Team America.

Yeah, I played very aggressively knowing that my advantages wouldnt last forever, but maybe I could have sat back a few more times ... hard to say ... thats for the next time then, I surely learned a few things during the tourney again ;) Actually I only had time to breath with a Standstill out but as you could read before that is NO autowin. I definitely think that Team America and EvaGreen could have turned out differently, so a 5:2 should have been possible maybe if I had invested more time in playtesting and SB options (especially Divert/Misdirection). NQG running Counterbalance seems harder but manageable. So with luck and playskill this deck could be ... :D GoyfSligh well maybe running more Mind Harness will do and not seeing a Shusher.

The deck still does not get much attention from my pov. Maybe this changes ... in the tournament half of the opponents went like "uh ah merfolk, i heard of it, oh what? you play stifle?, shit, I didn't know that". Although if this happens everybody is better prepared. I think I like my opponents being unprepared for some more time ;)

[Piceli89]

Well thx for your quick response. Ah well Whirl Pool Rider to compensate bad luck naaah ;) Most of the times Standstill had good draws. Although, if you propose creature No. 20 there would be one free job for a merfolk in that list. Or it could be 1-3 Dreadnaughts instead?

About the Relics you are quite right. I actually played them after reading here how good they are but decided to go with Echoing Truth thinking it more versatile. Actually they weren't. So as an effect I sided 1-2 Echoing Truth out almost every game. Relique on the opposite was very good. Of course I played with all 3 in Game 2 against Team America but you miss 2 things: you have to draw it (or mulligan for it depending on starting hand) and you have to foresee Stifle: In my Game 2 against TA I could hold off the Goyf quite well being a 2/3 at max for a time ... well but unfortunately as I had to blow it (because Goofy was about to grow), it got stifled :/ something I should have expected from Team America.

Yeah, I played very aggressively knowing that my advantages wouldnt last forever, but maybe I could have sat back a few more times ... hard to say ... thats for the next time then, I surely learned a few things during the tourney again ;) Actually I only had time to breath with a Standstill out but as you could read before that is NO autowin. I definitely think that Team America and EvaGreen could have turned out differently, so a 5:2 should have been possible maybe if I had invested more time in playtesting and SB options (especially Divert/Misdirection). NQG running Counterbalance seems harder but manageable. So with luck and playskill this deck could be ... :D GoyfSligh well maybe running more Mind Harness will do.

The deck still does not get much attention from my pov. Maybe this changes ... in the tournament half of the opponents went like "uh ah merfolk, i heard of it, o what you play stifle, shit, I didn't know that". Although if this happens everybody is better prepared. I think I like my opponents being unprepared for some more time ;)

Now you understood how Divert is important in SB. I think that, against team america, you should side out all the stifles (the only purpose is to stifle their fetches, but i assume that you don't play against 2 yrs old children..), and go with all your relics (which, i have to admit, is a house) and the divert, since divert can... misdirect lots, LOTS of thing ( counters, thoughtseizes, SINKHOLES, SNUFF OUTS..).
And, of course, be prepared to side in the diverts too against goyf sligh: just drop a folk, be careful to keep U open, wait for their burn spell and divert it on their lavamancer. It's fucking nuts.
Imo, don't hesitate to play even 4 copies of Divert in side if you're meta is so aggressive: what Phoenix has said is perfectly true, you can't simply copy /paste the Sb lists you find here and get the cards, the sideboard is purely a metagame issue.
And don't play so aggressively against such kind of decks, because they can easily sweep your army away and beat with their fatties. Just pay attention to the "control " role your deck has in the first phases of the game ( denying their mana is great, as well as trying to drop a standstill with a mutavault , if possible), then drop the 'folks and start beating. Of course the way you play differs from every situation you find yourself in, but usually merfolks is not the "drop, beat, drop, beat" goblin approach.


I'm very pleased , however, that you found yourself having a good time with this deck, and I hope that you can find interesting "tips " in this thread.
Keep the Merfolks on ! :smile:

[Finn]

Jeez, it seems there is a lot of action with this deck recently.

In my extensive testing I found spot removal of my important guys to be the single biggest problem, hence the horrendous Goyfsligh matchups you people are reporting. I think Divert is about the best suggestion I have seen in a long time.

I think hitting the mana supply of TA early is of paramount importance, however. So, while I have not tested it, I can't see taking out the Stifles. Early on, they own TA. And later on, you can always pitch them to FoW or perhaps use them on Wastelands targeting Vaults.

Personally, I have dumped Port in favor of Mutavault. And along with it, Standstill is a clear choice. The list posted by Nekrataal looks pretty clean and streamlined. Even still, I have also been unhappy with Echoing Truth. I have tried Psioinic Blast, Rushing River, and Repeal in that spot as well. I think I like Repeal the best. But it is still lacking somewhat. Certainly we are all interested in exactly how much Relics should be making their way into the main. And using just one with no way to search for it seems a bit weak. But it is the right direction. Tight mana and deep dependence on graveyards are the Achilles Heel of most of our opponents. This should be the direction we are taking imo.

I am a bit concerned about the timing of a Relic. I mean, if you resolve it early, you can expect to get a lot of mileage out of it as long as they don't have a needle for it. But if you don't land it early enough, you are going to have to remove the graveyards before the opponent plays Tombstalker or it sux. That isn't always easy.

I will be updating the OP very soon. Please pm me your primer info if you have any detailed analyses to include.

[Mantis]

I am a bit concerned about the timing of a Relic. I mean, if you resolve it early, you can expect to get a lot of mileage out of it as long as they don't have a needle for it. But if you don't land it early enough, you are going to have to remove the graveyards before the opponent plays Tombstalker or it sux.
How is the timing on Relic hard? Just throw it out there asap and keep on removing cards in the yard in your mainphase. If they are running out of cards to dump in their yard pop or you draw an additional one, pop the Relic. Remember that you play the control role in the TA vs. Merfolk matchup, so every turn you gain gives you the oppurtunity to flood the boards with threats and even make your own guys stronger. Also, if you can keep their threats small with Relic, you can wiggle out of the soft lock they aim to create with their LD. That is the way I use Relic in Goblins against TA and it works pretty well.

[Phoenix Ignition]

OOooOOooh Hi Finn, didn't know you still read Merfolks.



In my extensive testing I found spot removal of my important guys to be the single biggest problem, hence the horrendous Goyfsligh matchups you people are reporting. I think Divert is about the best suggestion I have seen in a long time.
Yep, this card does seem to be the most helpful. It isn't as autoscoop as I said before, I've won a good number of times due to Sligh not hitting enough burns. This is rare though, so I would still put the match at 30%



I think hitting the mana supply of TA early is of paramount importance, however. So, while I have not tested it, I can't see taking out the Stifles. Early on, they own TA. And later on, you can always pitch them to FoW or perhaps use them on Wastelands targeting Vaults.
I would disagree, I think stifles can be sideboarded out for Echoing Truth. It's much better to bounce the Tombstalker than try to keep them fully mana denied since they only need 2 lands ever to run well, and at 1 island they can cantrip all they want.

Mantis is 100% correct on what should happen during this MU, even though he just plays relic in gobbos.



Personally, I have dumped Port in favor of Mutavault. And along with it, Standstill is a clear choice. The list posted by Nekrataal looks pretty clean and streamlined. Even still, I have also been unhappy with Echoing Truth. I have tried Psioinic Blast, Rushing River, and Repeal in that spot as well. I think I like Repeal the best. But it is still lacking somewhat. Certainly we are all interested in exactly how much Relics should be making their way into the main. And using just one with no way to search for it seems a bit weak. But it is the right direction. Tight mana and deep dependence on graveyards are the Achilles Heel of most of our opponents. This should be the direction we are taking imo.
Relic is easily the reason I won the tournament with this deck. Check out my tournament report a page or two back for more details. Echoing truth is a great card, but I have found it unnecessary in the maindeck.



I am a bit concerned about the timing of a Relic. I mean, if you resolve it early, you can expect to get a lot of mileage out of it as long as they don't have a needle for it. But if you don't land it early enough, you are going to have to remove the graveyards before the opponent plays Tombstalker or it sux. That isn't always easy.

3 of them lets you resolve it early. You do need to pop it early so they don't get Tombstalker out, but almost no one plays thinking that you have a Relic, so a lot of times they will be tapped out turns 2-4, as is their strategy with that deck.



I will be updating the OP very soon. Please pm me your primer info if you have any detailed analyses to include.
Checking the last few pages of the thread would be the best bet. We've gone over many different cards to fill the open slots. Right now I still like the list to be:
4 LoA
4 Reejery
4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
2-3 Wakethrasher
1-2 Whirlpool Rider

3 Relic
4 FoW
3 Daze
4 Standstill
3 Stifle
4 Vial

12 Island
4 Wasteland
3 Mutavault

SB:
3 Echoing Truth
2 Propaganda
3 Divert
2 Pithing Needle
2 Back to Basics
3 Hydroblast effects

[electrolyze]

Why dont you play waterfront bouncer? He seems really good in a meta with stalkers and noughts to me. For the rest i like the build.

[Shawon]

Why dont you play waterfront bouncer? He seems really good in a meta with stalkers and noughts to me. For the rest i like the build.

Careful, some people find that reason laughable.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Why dont you play waterfront bouncer? He seems really good in a meta with stalkers and noughts to me. For the rest i like the build.

I don't because of the huge card disadvantage. He doesn't swing, he doesn't even do anything the turn he comes in. He's a huge tempo loss and "in a meta with stalkers and noughts" also means "in a meta with stifle." He might draw out a kill, but that's the most you could expect. We run Relics maindeck so tombstalker shouldn't be a problem, and we can usually race one quite efficiently (even a silvergill + mutavault does the job after they use fetchlands). Dreadnought would be the only reason, but then why shouldn't we run someone like Shapesharer instead?

Because they both suck.

Far too slow, far too inefficient, and if it gets stifled you are already wasting 2 cards on it. The only benefit is that you can drop a standstill if you have him out and then bounce their threats in the meantime. The only problem with that is that popping a standstill is by no means game over for them, even if you do get +2 cards total.

[Piceli89]

Nice to see Finn returning to this deck. As you can see, we have walked very far with it :laugh:
However, I still can't renounce to completely cutting the ports in this deck, so I returned to playing them in 2x along with wastelands and mutavaults. the results has proven that i were right about the fact that , sometimes, ports make you win the game, really. I think that they're a bit underextimated for the enourmous service they provide, since stealing 1 mana from the opponent per turn really does the difference, and they also increase the effectiveness of tempo cards such as standstill.
Playing 11 islands seemed to me to be risky, but with tests i got that it's a supportable quantity to find a blue source from the first turn.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Waterfront Bouncer has been already mentioned as a possible candidate for that vacating slot which everyone fills with his "personal" merfolks some time ago, but I agree on the fact that it's too slow and such too card- disadvantaging for being included and add decent consistency to the army.
I'd rather play Grimoire thief, at that point (ironic, ofc, even if I did it).
However, it seems that Conflux will bring us a lot fishes, so let's stare at what will exit from that expansion. We hope another Lord, so the deck will be able to be called " Fishes on Roids" :-D

[elof]

Where have you gotten this information that Conflux will be bringing us fishes? I would love to see that happen but I sadly don't belive so. Perhaps the "blue shard" Esper will give us an artifact merfolk however :)

[Piceli89]

Boh i read somewhere in this forum that a lots of merfolks would have joined Conflux, but perhaps i read wrong or it was just a joke. I hope it's not ofc, but i think that wizards has already decided to stop printing powerful merfolks, since the good success they have had in standard- of course, they don't care at all about legacy, that's for sure.

[rufus]

Against targeted removal (which seems to be an issue), Waterfront bouncer is still a bit slow, but is CA neutral.

There's a leaked Conflux card list with obvious greenskins (Wandering Goblins, Goblin Outlander & Goblin Razerunners), the blue cards look more artifact and sphinx oriented.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=131996

[Nekrataal]

Jeez, it seems there is a lot of action with this deck recently.

In my extensive testing I found spot removal of my important guys to be the single biggest problem, hence the horrendous Goyfsligh matchups you people are reporting. I think Divert is about the best suggestion I have seen in a long time.


Exactly my observation. Lighning Bolt, Fire/Ice in NQG/r, Smother, Snuff Out in EvaGreen and TA, StoP in NQG/w have more effect than just removing a creature, they weaken your whole team (first target is the LoA then Rejeerey). Thats why a single Divert would have saved the day for me at times. With the Mana denial package Merfolks bring this seems to be a perfect fit. Maybe a 3/1 split with Misdirection. Well I just bought 4 Divert just in case. ;)



I think hitting the mana supply of TA early is of paramount importance, however. So, while I have not tested it, I can't see taking out the Stifles. Early on, they own TA. And later on, you can always pitch them to FoW or perhaps use them on Wastelands targeting Vaults.

As green is not their main color you can try to cut them off that color. They play a lot of fetchies so finding a target shouldnt be a problem.



Personally, I have dumped Port in favor of Mutavault. And along with it, Standstill is a clear choice. The list posted by Nekrataal looks pretty clean and streamlined. Even still, I have also been unhappy with Echoing Truth. I have tried Psioinic Blast, Rushing River, and Repeal in that spot as well. I at least tried Rushing River which has its advantages at times. But i now think that bounce in general is not choice No.1 maindeck. Regarding Potrs, well, there were Games where they could have been useful but Iam not sure running more non blue Manasources because 3 Mutavault (together with Standstill) and 4 Wastelands seem a must have. But I already saw lists with just 11 Islands, 4 Wastelands, 2-3 Mutavaults and 2 Ports.

[Phoenix Ignition]

As green is not their main color you can try to cut them off that color. They play a lot of fetchies so finding a target shouldnt be a problem.

I at least tried Rushing River which has its advantages at times. But i now think that bounce in general is not choice No.1 maindeck. Regarding Potrs, well, there were Games where they could have been useful but Iam not sure running more non blue Manasources because 3 Mutavault (together with Standstill) and 4 Wastelands seem a must have. But I already saw lists with just 11 Islands, 4 Wastelands, 2-3 Mutavaults and 2 Ports.

Team America having green isn't a big deal if you have a Relic since 0/1 creatures aren't that scary.

Piceli, how is the 11 island running? I've not had good results with it, mainly for the reasons we discussed. Also, I know ports are good, I'm just wondering if that's going a little too much out of the way for their effect.

Honestly, even with vial out I usually tap out playing something. Saving mana for Port is probably as much of a tempo loss as it is a tempo gain. Maybe you have a different take on it though?

[elof]

Just used the orb of insight for Conflux and it said 0 merfolks for Conflux :(

[JohnnyCage]

Look, Back to Basics is that good. The deck is not goblins and can not use port as effectively. The strength here comes from dodging nonbasic hate and having your own, plus relic really is that good. But i do feel like the deck needs something mainboard for dreadnought...and that we have to try to help that terrible goyf sligh matchup. So lets brainstorm...no pun intended...

[Phoenix Ignition]

Look, Back to Basics is that good. The deck is not goblins and can not use port as effectively. The strength here comes from dodging nonbasic hate and having your own, plus relic really is that good. But i do feel like the deck needs something mainboard for dreadnought...and that we have to try to help that terrible goyf sligh matchup. So lets brainstorm...no pun intended...

Long shot idea... anyone think of Kira, Great Glass-Spinner?

Goyf sligh would be improved, and MUC would as well (stops shackles).

She only costs 3 and helps a lot. I really was just trying to find a Crystalline Merfolk or something, but maybe it doesn't need to be a Merfolk?


As for Dreadnaught, if people really are going to be scared of it we could maindeck the Waterfront Bouncer... though I don't like him.

Echoing Truth was the default choice in the open slot as I call it, which was obviously the best thing against dreadnought. Though I think it really needs to be creature tech since I think this tribal deck has borderline too many spells in it already.

[elof]

It's hard having to find an maindeck answer for Nougt. However after sideboard, there should at least be 1-3 answer we could have.

Engineered Explosvies is about one of the few cheap spells that would destory the nought, however terrible against almost everything else. Bouncing it might be good but it does not solve the problem, just postponed it. I would thou SB in Echoing Truth against dreadstill.

I don't know if anyone made a comment about it but there are 1-2 list in Spain from a couple of monts ago that played 4 Noughts and 4 Shapesharer in maindeck. Don't know if that is the way to go (I wouldn't think so) but I suppose it would better the odds against gofy sligh (and probebly a few others while making it worse against ahole lot of "good" matchups). If anything, it would be a meta call.


Also, I final question: What do you do in the mirror match? There isn't that much to sideboard in (Propaganda? Jitte?) so if this deck really becomes a deck to beat, it might be good to consider having a mirror strategy. Saveing on your LoAs seems like a great idea for example.

[JohnnyCage]

Bouncer is just bad, and so is kira, i have played her before and two twos for three are never enough...even though i love her ability.

[Piceli89]

Kira just doesn't fit here. First, because she's not a merfolk, so she would stand alone without any bonus from the tribe (and this is the same thing i think of all the lists i saw splashing green for that son of bitch of tarmogoyf), second because she would have to wait 3-4 turns to be vialed and wouldn't do anything on her own, apart from sheltering our guys. But, of course, if you put Kira in, you would have to cut other merfolks, and I think that those " other merfolks" would be Reejereys or thrashers to keep the cc curve balanced ( don't think that any fool would side out cursecatchers for kira, cause he would hae to wait 2 years to cast a creature). So, Kira would have to protect a minor quantity of guys, reducing her efficacy. And yes, she would shelter herself too, but i prefer a huge beefy beast ( thrasher) or a good twiddler and pumper (reeerey) at this point.

If you fear the goyf Sligh matchup so much, just fill your SB with all cards against red removals, such as Divert and Blue Elemental Blast, which are quite useful against many decks. I'd even think to mind harness, but at this point the sideboard would be composed of 10 cards anti- red and we would lose many slots to compensate other unfavorable matchups. i think it's better to keep this low percentage of winning against goyf sligh and to concentrate against all the other archetypes, in order to be more preparated against everything. however, i'd go 3-4 Divert.

Against Dreadnought, it's equally hard. But that's the reason we can't not run echoing truths in side, it helps against so many threats. Better to try to arginate that fatty in the g1, maybe also losing, but in the 2/3 siding in the truths and the BEBs ( if he's splashing red, which is the version i'm seeing more going to be played because of that Cheon in the Worlds who made top4) and try to smother that fucking stifle on the dreadnought. Here, cursecatcher is godly. If Nought lands, just bluff on wasting a counter on stifle in order to cut his own counters out, and then bounce that fatty. this is what I did yesterday, i went 1-2 in that game but I was very close to win and died because of a fucking pyroclasm g3 on a eager thrasher ready to swing.

About the lists that splash dreadnought, it's not a bad idea at all ( surely, it's better than tarmogoyf), but running too much stifles/trickbind to make the combo more probable and adding that "slows " shapesharer implies that you lose something very important in other slots, which is some of the explosiveness Merfolks can provide , if needed. Not to count that you'll be more, more conservative in playing the stifles against the opponent because you'll fear that the turn after, a Dreadnought will join your hand from the topdeck and it'll be a dead card. That's pretty controproductive with the aim of the deck, and I amost think that it becomes a totally different deck.
Never tried it, maybe i'll give it a taste in the future, but for now I feel that Merfolks are pretty good already in this way, without odd techs or hybrids.

In the Mirror match-up, i usually side out a single Lord Of Atlantis, a tidal warrior, Some standstills ( if i'm not playing first) and add 3 propaganda and 2 echoing truths.
The choice of siding out 1 of Lord Of atlantis may seem to be stupid, but I think that in this matchup he's as a godly as an autoloss card. Godly because it may make you win games if you're in clear advantage, autoloss because it may make you lose games if the situation changes or you have a worse hand than the opponent's one. So, i prefer to run a 3x in order to side in propagandas and echoing truths, which allow to have a greater control on the game and to do surprise things, as bouncing its loA while attacking and block , or , similarly, swing with my islandwalked dudes, leave some blockers, and in his combat bouncing my own loA in hand to prevent my enemies' umblockability. Pretty straight examples, but they help to understand how this matchup should be fought.
Another thing i noticed in the mirror MU is that port is amazing, either tapping its attacking mutavaults, either stealing a blue mana per turn. It won me games on MWS , as well as good opponent's ports made me lose games because they stole that mana i needed to cast propaganda, which is pretty strong against a tight-mana-shell as the one in merfolks.

EDIT: Phoenix, I'm finding quite comfortable with the 11 islands and 9 utility lands configuration ( i run 20 lands). As i said, i almost always mange to get the blue mana source i need. However, i have reduced the incidence that port had before i tried mutavaults, so now, even if i have port out, i don't automatically use it to tap opponent's lands, i usually value the situation of the game and then proceed to use it to tap or to add mana. Before, i almost always automatically use it to steal mana, but effectively i understood that this is not the way to go. But still, i can swear that its efficiency is still damnly evident in certain matchups where the opponent gets screwed with the colour he needs in that moment - I'm talking about thresh and landstill, of course, but sometimes even against Zoo or the " nightmared " Goyf Sligh, i managed to prevent a goyf from landing.

EDIT2: but, all of you be sincere, is GoyfSligh so played where you guys live ? Because here, apart from MWS, i haven't never seen it yet in any tournament...

[JohnnyCage]

Seriously if TA and GSligh are that bad why are we not running SUBMERGE in board..seriously, free time walks that make stalker unplayable second time are pretty good i here. Here is my current board:
2x Back to Basics
2xEchoing truth
3xDivert
3xBlue elemental blast
4x SUBMERGE
1xMind Harness

Pithing needle is honestly underpowered in this deck, naming wasteland when u care about colors is great but we dont. Seriously everyone try submerge.

[Piceli89]

Seriously if TA and GSligh are that bad why are we not running SUBMERGE in board..seriously, free time walks that make stalker unplayable second time are pretty good i here. Here is my current board:
2x Back to Basics
2xEchoing truth
3xDivert
3xBlue elemental blast
4x SUBMERGE
1xMind Harness

Pithing needle is honestly underpowered in this deck, naming wasteland when u care about colors is great but we dont. Seriously everyone try submerge.


Why does submerge make Tombstalker unplayable the 2nd time?

[JohnnyCage]

Because we are fast enough to apply pressure quickly and idk if you have played TA but the deck only really has enough fuel to play the stalker once in the time that it takes our deck to win. Test the matchup a little more and you will understand my point.

[Piceli89]

Ah ! asked you because i thought that it could only work on green creatures, but now i read. Me lame ! :laugh:
Mmm isn't at this point relic already sufficient for that purpose? Not to count that the opponent can just avoid to fetch for tropical/bayou if he knows that you're playing that, which will be evident in g3.. but this is hard to happen, though.

[Sims]

It's difficult to play Tarmogoyfs if you're avoiding fetching your Forests. If they don't grab them out of fear of Submerge you've effectively dropped them from 8 to 4 creatures.

[JohnnyCage]

Yes relic does a similar purpose but there is nothing wrong with extra hate and hate that time walks at that. They must fetch out green or they loose 4 of there 8 threats. All im saying is to test it and start winning games because of it.

Damn, Beat me to it ^^^^

[Eldariel]

Look, Back to Basics is that good. The deck is not goblins and can not use port as effectively. The strength here comes from dodging nonbasic hate and having your own, plus relic really is that good. But i do feel like the deck needs something mainboard for dreadnought...and that we have to try to help that terrible goyf sligh matchup. So lets brainstorm...no pun intended...

If those two are your problems, how about Threads of Disloyalty? It has quite a good number of uses and is an absolute beating on Goyfs and Dreadnoughts, and at 3 mana, it may actually be castable. Other than that, uhh, Waterfront Bouncer?

[JohnnyCage]

Ya, im glad everyone can agree that bouncer is a typo more then a card choice, honestly i haven't had a terrible time with nought, generally i found the deck fast enough to race them since they have to have counter back up for stifle. And right now mind harness is my threads and might get upped in my board. But that two or three card meta slot mainboard could become threads if meta is alot of nought.

[Phoenix Ignition]

What's everyone doing on the 2 open slots? Are they really worth maindecking any of these solutions or do people still use the Tidal Warrior?

EDIT: Fine, beat me to it dammit...

Submerge seems good, but I like pithing needle vs. Jitte matchups as that card is a huge bitch and usually needs to be shut down. I would like to leave that in since it gives you 6 turn 1 answers to the counter-top player (vial + needle).

As for the goyf sligh matchup I don't see how using hydroblasts is going to help that much. They side in 4 pyroblasts, which effectively just cancels our blasts (or blasts our creatures). Yeah Kira is slow and small, but if you actually get one out it either makes them 1 for 2 your creatures or burn straight to your face exlusively. That's dangerous as well, but then you get to race, and with Relic you've already shut down their goyf + grim lavamancer.

I'm a little cautious about Submerge just because after they know you have it, they don't need to grab their tropics anymore (especially if you land a Relic anyway since they don't need to play that 0/1). I guess you could pay 5 for it...

[JohnnyCage]

Its not just for that matchup though submerge is good in goyf sligh too, plus jitte is answered by submerge and by maindeck threads, and mind harness in side...jitte sucks without creatures, and come on, who uses red blast anymore, its all about the shusher now, and we have mind harness and threads for it. Also counter top cant hit everything since our best ten threats are 3 drops and lands so that doesn't worry me much. Needle never trumps a game, using that slot to timewalk goyf sligh and TA does. Trust me on this one and test it.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Threads main weakens a lot more matchups than I think it helps. Control MUs aren't auto-win here so taking out extra creatures against them doesn't help, and Threads is actually dead a lot.

I have been playtesting but no dreadstills or goyf slighs came up yet. Against everything I have played, threads suck, and I like Whirlpool far better.

[JohnnyCage]

Really, it does effectively replace bouncer and i have been loving it. Whirlpool always did me wrong, your hand is never bad enough to punt away it felt like, and when i did, he drew me 4 lands...so i guess i like threads, they did just take me a bob, and let me say i wish he was a merfolk lol.

The Whirlpool Rider has also been terrible in testing, i currently dropped his two slots and am running two threads main with much success.

[Phoenix Ignition]

The thing about Whirlpool Rider is that you don't use him until your hand is full of islands, vials, and other random things you don't want (late game daze, wastelands against decks that you don't use them, stifles if unnecessary, Relics, etc).

Early on they're just fun to pitch for FoW (same with threads I guess, but at least he's a 1/1 creature).

Threads are great for decks they work against, but I'd say 1/3 of the decks out there they are going to be dead cards against.

Kira looks really good on paper, I'm going to try her out for the sideboard. I just lost to MUC due to a resolved shackles, and really wished I had tried her out.

[JohnnyCage]

The thing about Whirlpool Rider is that you don't use him until your hand is full of islands, vials, and other random things you don't want (late game daze, wastelands against decks that you don't use them, stifles if unnecessary, Relics, etc).

Early on they're just fun to pitch for FoW (same with threads I guess, but at least he's a 1/1 creature).

Threads are great for decks they work against, but I'd say 1/3 of the decks out there they are going to be dead cards against.

Kira looks really good on paper, I'm going to try her out for the sideboard. I just lost to MUC due to a resolved shackles, and really wished I had tried her out.

IDK joe, in our meta u know threads are good, its all loam and shit, but ya maybe we should even give the rider slot to kira main board. It would fix some problems, im just sure i dont like rider, even as a one of he was bad, he was ok when i played ANT though.

Not to be too persistent but threads just win another game taking turn one hypie.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Not to be too persistent but threads just win another game taking turn one hypie.

Nice job cheater. I don't like threads mainly because 3cc creatures are prevalent now. If either of you caught that you'd probably be dead. Kira on the other hand could have legally blocked that hyppie.


Relics beat loam... though I did get a bit lucky drawing it so much. Threads would probably be better in our meta, true. I am thinking Kira instead of chill in sideboard though. I leave vial at 3 usually anyway.

Threads are good, I'm still undecided.