[Deck] Merfolk

[lorddotm]

scratch what I said about manlands. I originally thought they'd cost me an arm and a leg, but I found a cardshop that was selling them for lees than 5$ each so now i have a playset.

anyways, i was wondering if the red splash is viable for this deck. I remember U/R fish used to be a pretty big deal back in old T1/1.5 several years ago, because Fire/Ice and Grim Lavamancer were uber. Is that still the case? Would either of those cards help the terribad Goblin matchup?
I'm asking because i have four deltas and volcanics are the only dual lands I have so I kind of feel moved to use them.

My new list:

(20) Land
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
12 Island

(21) Creatures
4 Cursecatcher
2 Tidal Warrior
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
3 Wake Thrasher

(19) Spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spellsnare

I decided to up the Wake Thrasher count and dump Stifles from the mainboard for spellsnare. tell me what you guys think

Also, rules question:
If I use Tidal Warrior's ability to turn a land into an island until end of turn at the end of an opponent's turn, does that mean that their land remains an island until the end of my turn? If I remember correctly, thats how until end of turn effects worked when I played slide all those years ago, so I'm wondering if the rules have changed or not.

I would cut 2 Tidal Warriors, 1 Wakethrasher, and 1 Factory in favor of 4 Stifles.

I find that more than 2 Wakethrashers ends up clogging up my hand, and with 20 lands i tend to get flooded, often. Tidal Warrior, in my opinion is garbage. He is only there for cuteness factor with LoA, and the colour denial isn't usually a huge deal. Stifles on the other hand, I've grown to love, they do everything from help with Goblins to helping with mana denial, also, against worse opponents, I've used them to help push things through CounterTop.

Try and get Mutavaults to replace Factories.
How has Spell Snare been working for you? I run Echoing Truth in that slot, but maybe thats wrong?

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

anyways, i was wondering if the red splash is viable for this deck. I remember U/R fish used to be a pretty big deal back in old T1/1.5 several years ago, because Fire/Ice and Grim Lavamancer were uber. Is that still the case?

In my opinion, Red just doesn't give this deck enough gains as a splash color to be better than a mono-colored build. I say this as someone who (usually) loves the White splash, but has never tried splashing Red.

The list is looking better. I think Lorddotm's suggestions about cutting cards is viable, but I personally like Tidal Warrior, although only until they give us another (better) one-drop for this deck. It's not necessarily that I always love what the card does for me, but I find it's important to have a relatively high creature count in this deck.

As far as other fun suggestions, I never had overwhelming success with the Faeries splash, but since you have a couple non-basic land slots to play with, you could try Riptide Laboratory plus Spellstutter Sprite/ Vendillion Clique. I'm not really advocating it, but it's something you might want to play around with.

Also, since you're packing 3 Wake Thrashers right now, I've found Minamo, School at Water's Edge to be a fun singleton mise-well to use in conjunction with three Thrashers. It's kind of a dumb trick, but it actually wins games from time to time.

[Shawon]

Post-new rules: Without manaburn, does someone think that Wake Thrasher should be played now as a four-of? Or its 3Cc it's still to high to run a complete playset?
Men, I love the idea of smashing someone's face with three of four 'Thrasher :cool:

Also, what do you think will be the impact of the new combat rules on the Goblin matchup?

I don't understand the reasoning behind 'mana-burn -> Wake Thrasher is suddenly good.' It doesn't make any sense. If I depended on Wake Thrasher attacking the next turn, I have no problem burning myself for 4 EOT to alpha strike FTW next turn. I'll still run 2 Wake Thrasher, independent of mana burn changes.

As for the Goblin matchup, at face value it would seem that our Goblin matchup gets way better since virtually everyone in the Goblins thread is cutting Fanatic. It seems that way for now, but even with Fanatic, our Goblin matchup may still be bad. I guess we'll find out shortly when the changes officially take effect.

[tivadar]

Also, rules question:
If I use Tidal Warrior's ability to turn a land into an island until end of turn at the end of an opponent's turn, does that mean that their land remains an island until the end of my turn? If I remember correctly, thats how until end of turn effects worked when I played slide all those years ago, so I'm wondering if the rules have changed or not.

Nope, "at end of turn" effects you can do that with. "Until end of turn" effects resolve. And if they trigger more "until end of turn" effects they continue to resolve until they're all gone.

[from Cairo]

I've been testing Merfolk a bit with the following list...

4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
3 Wake Thrasher

4 Aether Vial
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Force of Will
3 Stifle
3 Daze
3 Standstill
1 Wipe Away

12 Island
4 Wasteland
3 Mutavault

SB:
4 Submerge
3 Spell Snare
2 BEB
2 Hydroblast
2 Divert
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Wipe Away

I was mostly curious about some SB feedback, my thoughts going into it were something along the following.

Submerge to come in versus Zoo and UGx, being a great answer to Tarmogoyf as well as Nacatl, Coatl, Thoctar, etc. Even better if in response to a fetchland.
Spell Snare mostly there to fill holes, obviously great against alot of the format but especially CB/Goyf decks, Combo, Bg(x) decks (Hymn/Sinkhole/Shade/Goyf).
Blasts against Goblins, Burn and Zoo.
Divert against Bg(x) decks, and to a lesser degree Zoo and Burn.
Relic to fill out against GY decks Loam, Ichorid, etc.
Wipe Away as general utility, but especially against decks like Landstill, where if Planeswalkers or Humility come down and I don't have the FOW, then 1 MD +1 SB Wipe Away atleast give me a couple outs in the 75 like a possibility of getting back into the game.


VS. UG(x) +3 Submerge, +3 Spell Snare; -3 Stifle, -3 Daze (maybe keep the Waste+Stifle package against 4c, but stuff more like Probasco and UGw it seems like removal for their Goyf would be more relevant)

VS. Zoo +4 Submerge, +2 BEB/Divert?; -3 Standstill, -2 Relic, -1 Wipe Away (Divert seems good if they are playing a Burn heavy list or 4x PTE, if they are running more guys Lavamancer and/or Thoctar than BEB is probably superior)

VS. Goblins +2 BEB, +2 Hydroblast, +2 Spell Snare; -3 Standstill, -2 Relic of Progenitus, -1 Wipe Away

VS. Landstill +3 Spell Snare, +1 Wipe Away, +1 Relic of Progenitus; -2 Umezawa's Jitte, -3 Standstill

VS. Combo +3 Spell Snare, + 2 BEB, +2 Hydroblast; -4 Aether Vial, -2 Umezawa's Jitte, -1 Wipe Away

VS. Agro Loam +4 Submerge, +4 Blasts, +1 Relic of Progenitus; -3 Stifle, -3 Standstill, -2 Cursecatcher, -1 Wipe Away

VS. Bg(x) +3 Spell Snare, +2 Divert, +1 Wipe Away, +1 Relic of Progenitus; -3 Stifle, -3 Standstill, -1 Cursecatcher


I just wanted to see if these lines of thought/boarding were more or less on the same page as everyone else.

[Skeggi]

@Antonius: your list looks pretty solid. I myself am not a fan of Tidal Warriors though, I've tried them and didn't like them because their ability was too narrow to be useful. Also, there are plenty of 1-drops you'd prefer turn 1, so there's no real need for extras. You may want to replace those with any of the aforementioned cards.

@from_Cairo: I'd run 4 Standstills, they enable you to power you to amazing brokeness. Without Standstill the deck 'runs out of gas' soon enough and you'll find that you and your opponent may have the same amount of cards on the table, but the card quality on the other side is generally better. The 1-of Wipe Away seems like a good candidate to drop for this.

All-in-all I'm not a Wipe Away fan. The card simply costs too much, and while you can vial in a UU Lord, the double blue from a Wipe Away can cost you the game. Echoing Truth is probably alot better if you want to use bounce.

You also have zero creature-stealers, like Threads of Disloyalty, Sower of Temptation, Seasinger or Mind Harness. They've become an essential part of the Merfolk game because they create card advantage, and Merfolk is in desperate need of card advantage.

About your sideboardplan: if you're going for control, like you do in the first scenario, I'd prefer Threads of Disloyalty over Spell Snare. The beauty is that people usually don't side in Grips against Merfolk anyway. I myself am not a big fan of Divert and BEB. Having to keep mana open sucks anyway. You may have to think and calculate odds and stuff.

Against Zoo I wouldn't side out the Standstills. They may come across as slow, but they're very needed to create that card advantage because Zoo is one of those decks with high card quality. You may want to cut Dazes instead, because it drops your tempo. You really want to cut the Dazes if you won game 1, which you should have :wink:.

Against Goblins: well I'm still not sold on BEB and Hydroblast, they may cancel out a strong Goblin card, but again, you need quality. Quality like Back to Basics and Propaganda come to mind, but you run neither in your sideboard. Dropping Standstill in this match-up is understandable, because they also have Vial, but they don't have manlands. I'd keep the Standstills.

Against Landstill: what 2cc cards are you affraid of in Landstill that you side in 3x Spell Snare? Counterspell? What else do they have? Oh, that's right, no 2cc cards. You do take your Standstills out against Landstill obviously, your Jitte's also seem to be of less use. Stuff that you're affraid of are: recurring Explosives and Humility. So you keep your Stifles and side in extra bounce. Islandwalk will do the rest.

Against Combo: that looks pretty solid. Although you may want to consider keeping your Jittes because lifegain is a bitch against Tendrils.

Against Aggro Loam: that looks pretty solid. It's a hard match-up in my eyes, no use of Islandwalk, insensitive to counters, huge card quality and big card advantage once they're up and running. Submerge is the best choice against this deck; it's basically a 0 costing instant Timewalk. Against Aggro Loam I always like to steal those big creatures like the Terravores and the Countryside Crushers, but bouncing a Countryside Crusher can be fun too :smile:.

Against Eva Green//The Rock: there's a very big chance they have Pernicious Deed. Don't side out those Stifles.

Hope this helps, they're ofcourse just my opinion and are probably in no way the general consensus :wink:

[from Cairo]

I could see running a creature stealing effect in Submerges place I suppose, since they serve a similar function of helping against agro, or huge guys. That might be the right call.

My logic on Wipe Away is that it's definitely there as a late game card so the UU isn't a huge concern, and I like the fact that it's a pretty guaranteed out against other Blue decks. At least in the sense that you get a full turn if you bounce the problem end step as it's rarely counterable. Echoing Truth strikes me as being more versatile in that it can be a late game spell but can also be a quick answer to a Phyrexian Dreadnought or double Nacatl or something, like I could see it randomly being nice on turn 2-4 where Wipe Away will almost never be. I will test some more against the Landstill match up (this is the match I had in mind with Wipe Away) and see how relevant the Split Second really is.

On Dazes vs. Standstill against Zoo, I'm not sure. My worry was that if they get a quick Kird Ape/Nacatl or even worse Grim Lavamancer than Standstill is very dead in hand, where Daze could still slow the bleeding by stopping a Pridemage or Thoctar from coming down. Daze is definitely alot worse on the draw though, the tempo will probably hurt more than the threat resolving would, so I guess it might depend on whether you win game 1 or not.

I think the Blasts work as a form of card quality, since they serve as counters to you're opponents card advantage, Ringleader, Siege-Gang, etc. Also they leave you with a few more answers to turn 1 Lackey. Though they don't help much if Goblins gets an active Vial, I suppose B2B and Propaganda both become alot worse in those situations too though, since they don't need to tie up their mana to cast guys. I think boarding out Standstill is definitely right against Goblins, they match your Vials, they have Wastes sometimes Ports to answer your Mutavaults, and Gempalm Incinerator that can cycle to answer man lands as well. I think that's just too many variables that can shut off Standstill.

Spell Snare answers EE@2, Standstill, and Counterspell vs Landstill, I'd agree it's not amazing, but it's better than Jitte and your own Standstills. So if you're taking out 5 cards, after the 3rd Relic and 2nd Bounce spell, there's room for 3 other cards, of my remaining board choices, Spell Snare is the only one that's relevant. I agree Stifle stays in, it's incredible against Landstill (Decree, Wasteland, Engineered Explosives).

Does Eva Green usually run Deed SB? I was thinking it would have Engineered Plague, thus my boarding in the extra Wipe Away, and answers to Hymn/Sinkhole and the GY hate for Goyf and Tombstalker. I definitely agree on The Rock though that Stifle would stay in over Divert, I guess it depends if you see the BB disruption spells game 1, whether you assume they are playing a more agro-disruption or controlly shell, and thus anticipate Deed post-board or Engineered Plague.

[Antonius]

heres my latest build:

(19) Land
11 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland

(18) Creatures
4 Cursecatcher
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Merrow Reejerey
2 Wake Thrasher

(23) Spells
4 Aether Vial
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Standstill
2 Echoing Truth
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Stifle
2 Spellsnare

So, I finally decided to get rid of Tidal Warrior. I dumped him to make room for stifles, though I will say that I feel like running more merfolk instead. Have Cold-Eyed Selkie or Grimoire Thief ever been considered for this deck? I think the later has the potential to be quite good.

[Shawon]

Cut 2 Spell Snare for 1 Stifle and 1 Daze. I used to be a huge fan of Spell Snare and I hated Stifle. Spell Snare is good, but you don't need it in Merfolk.

I don't think the deck has room for another 3 drop like CES. If you want to try a 2-drop, I think Inkfathom Infiltrator is much better than Grimoire Thief, since you're running Jitte MD.

[scrumdogg]

I've been running Grimoire Thief and loving him. However, that being said, he doesn't have the ability to be game-breaking unless you are running a version of the deck that is extremely counterspell heavy imo. And while I love cute (and to an extent partially useful) to justify the Thief you need to be able to protect him & retain him as not only something sucking cards off their deck but threatening an increasingly devastating sac/counter. I will be experimenting in that direction after the SCG $5K Boston event, as I love the Thief, but testing time is at a premium right now. What seems to happen, far too often, is I get 3-6 cards out of their deck, they find a way to kill him, the game continues. The fact that he does suck removal is a positive, but 2-6 damage & 3-6 cards (at random) isn't the effect I am working towards. I'm debating adding Sword of Light & Shadow and heavy counters to go more controllish Merfolk, but time will tell whether that is viable or not.

[(nameless one)]

To Scrumdogg:
Sweet, Ive always loved Grimoire Thief but I have no way to use her as of yet... if you have positive results, please share them

On the other hand, heres is my version:

12x Island
4x Rishadan Port
3x Flooden Strand
1x Minamo, School at Water's Edge

4x Cursecatcher
4x Lord Of Atlantis
4x Silvergill Adept
4x Merrow Reejerey
3x Tidal Warrior
3x Saprazzan Heir
2x Wake Thrasher
2x Cold-Eyed Selkie

4x AEther Vial
4x Force of Will
3x Daze
3x Counterbalance
3x Sensei's Divining Top

SB:
3x Relic of Progenitus
3x Hydroblast
3x Stifle
2x Propaganda
2x Back to Basic
2x Seasinger

I know my build looks different and wierd.

Counter-Top engine has given the deck more control. I am enjoying it so far. Since I dont have any shuffle effects, I added 3 Fetchlands to fix this.

Since I dont run manlands, I didnt run Standstill (I think its not going to work). Instead, Im running Saprazzan Heir as a Standstill proxy. Shes a conditional beater that makes my opponent double think. Although Im still in the middle of playtesting this.

I know theres a lot of hate on Tidal Warrior but i find him helpful. Early game, he can screw my opponent's land and on Late game, he could be used as a way to make merfolks unblockables (with the help of Lord of Atlantis).

Some of the changes Ive done is there because my meta is more of rouge/unproven decks (dragon stompy really gets pwned in my meta). I know some changes, although helpful for me, can still be wierd-sounding. If any of you want to add a couple of things, feel free to add.

Thanks

[Skeggi]

Does Eva Green usually run Deed SB? I was thinking it would have Engineered Plague.
They generally do, but sometimes they do have Deeds (my version does), which is by far a bigger threat than Plague. And The Rock generally has Deeds.

[Patrunkenphat7]

Hey guys,
Just curious - how many Fish players are running the counterbalance soft lock these days? Half? A small minority?

[Piceli89]

Hey guys,
Just curious - how many Fish players are running the counterbalance soft lock these days? Half? A small minority?

for sure, not Merfolk.

[Patrunkenphat7]

Well there is one guy in my meta who runs it and a couple who do not. I was just unsure about Merfolk players as a whole, as I am unfamiliar with Legacy on a global scale.

[tyleredw]

I just split in the top 4 with merfolk at the dreamwizards legacy tournament on sunday.

Here is the list i was running:

4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Wake Thrasher
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey

4 Standstill
4 Aether Vial
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Relic of Progenitus

4 Mutavault
4 Wasteland
13 Island

Sideboard:
4 Spell Snare
3 Back to Basics
3 Hydroblast
2 Seasinger
3 Umezawa's Jitte


The deck worked perfectly all day. Never lost a game. Won matches against Team America, a Merfolk mirror, a CounterTop build (which was tuned specifically to beat merfolk :tongue: ), and another CounterTop deck in the top 8.

But now for more discussion:

Tidal Warrior:
I don't like warrior in this deck at all. The deck doesn't need any more one drops after vial and cursecatcher, both of which are infinitely better for you on turn one. I also dont like that its incredibly weak, and doesnt give you any benefit in combat. Vanilla 1/1's are not what this deck needs when its on the offensive.

Secondly, with the surge in popularity of Merfolk, the mirror match is very important. Tidal warrior is just plain trash in the mirror. Also, against anything with islands in it anyway, it becomes much weaker, and only serves the purpose of occasionally cutting off a splash color, while slowing you down considerably, something that is counterproductive to your gameplan.

Sapprazan Heir:
Really? Another 1/1 body is not what this deck wants in its two drops. Combine this with the fact that most of the time anyone blocks the creatures in this deck, theyre blocking your lords to try to kill them and shrink your dudes, this guy will never draw cards for you. Combine this with the fact that, if youre playing against anything with blue in it, 75% of the time, they'll either have nothing to block with, or wont even be ABLE to block at all due to islandwalk. She's trash.

[Nekrataal]

I just split in the top 4 with merfolk at the dreamwizards legacy tournament on sunday.

Here is the list i was running:

4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Wake Thrasher
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey

4 Standstill
4 Aether Vial
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Relic of Progenitus

4 Mutavault
4 Wasteland
13 Island

Sideboard:
4 Spell Snare
3 Back to Basics
3 Hydroblast
2 Seasinger
3 Umezawa's Jitte


The deck worked perfectly all day. Never lost a game. Won matches against Team America, a Merfolk mirror, a CounterTop build (which was tuned specifically to beat merfolk :tongue: ), and another CounterTop deck in the top 8.

But now for more discussion:

Tidal Warrior:
I don't like warrior in this deck at all. The deck doesn't need any more one drops after vial and cursecatcher, both of which are infinitely better for you on turn one. I also dont like that its incredibly weak, and doesnt give you any benefit in combat. Vanilla 1/1's are not what this deck needs when its on the offensive.

Secondly, with the surge in popularity of Merfolk, the mirror match is very important. Tidal warrior is just plain trash in the mirror. Also, against anything with islands in it anyway, it becomes much weaker, and only serves the purpose of occasionally cutting off a splash color, while slowing you down considerably, something that is counterproductive to your gameplan.

Sapprazan Heir:
Really? Another 1/1 body is not what this deck wants in its two drops. Combine this with the fact that most of the time anyone blocks the creatures in this deck, theyre blocking your lords to try to kill them and shrink your dudes, this guy will never draw cards for you. Combine this with the fact that, if youre playing against anything with blue in it, 75% of the time, they'll either have nothing to block with, or wont even be ABLE to block at all due to islandwalk. She's trash.

Congratz! Your build looks solid, no experiments, straightforward (except Seasinger SB). Good to see a build that has not 10 slots wasted to 2-tier cards. However, your matchups were slightly favorable since you played U opponents all day ;) (However I do not say that it is an easy win)

[Happy Gilmore]

I think its humorous that of all the creatures they have discussed with the new M10 changes, Wake Thrasher gets the biggest boost. No more mana burn? How awesome for that card.

[Shawon]

Why do people keep saying that Wake Thrasher is suddenly good now that mana burn is gone? Was Wake Thrasher not good before mana burn? Does mana burn prevent you from tapping unused lands to pump up Wake Thrasher? Please enlighten me.

[tyleredw]

Why do people keep saying that Wake Thrasher is suddenly good now that mana burn is gone? Was Wake Thrasher not good before mana burn? Does mana burn prevent you from tapping unused lands to pump up Wake Thrasher? Please enlighten me.

People arent saying its good now, as if they were implying it was bad before. Theyre saying it gets slightly BETTER.

There are times where it was worth it to at the end of your opponents turn, tap your untapped lands, and mana burn for 2-3 just to make thrasher bigger during your turn. With the new rules coming into effect, thrasher gets a little better, since you can tap all your lands at EOT to make him huge with zero penalty from life loss.

In my opinion it's hardly relevant, since the times you would usually mana burn to whack harder are usually when youre going for a kill at the end, in which case, at least the times i do it, i never even care about the life loss in the first place, cause you win right now.


Congratz! Your build looks solid, no experiments, straightforward (except Seasinger SB). Good to see a build that has not 10 slots wasted to 2-tier cards. However, your matchups were slightly favorable since you played U opponents all day ;) (However I do not say that it is an easy win)

The seasinger's were actually amazing in the mirror. Stealing opposing reejereys is such a huge tempo advantage.

The real MVPs of the day were back to basics and spell snare in the board. I'm officially sold on having 4x Spell Snare boarded. Team America and the 5-color CounterTop that i played in the top 8 practically just fold to it. Not to mention the synergy between reejerey and back to basics, being able to tap down their lands every time you cast a merfolk, once it sticks, its usually gg.

[Shawon]

People arent saying its good now, as if they were implying it was bad before. Theyre saying it gets slightly BETTER.I also agree it's not really relevant. I don't just understand why people are randomly posting "OOOOMMMGGG WAKE THRASSSHER CAN THRASSSH NOW WITH NO MAANAA BURN<<< ME JIZZZ IN MY PANTSS!!!"

We get it, Wake Thrasher is better with no mana burn. No need to make inane random one-liner posts on how it got better with mana burn gone.

[/rant]

[tyleredw]

I also agree it's not really relevant. I don't just understand why people are randomly posting "OOOOMMMGGG WAKE THRASSSHER CAN THRASSSH NOW WITH NO MAANAA BURN<<< ME JIZZZ IN MY PANTSS!!!"

We get it, Wake Thrasher is better with no mana burn. No need to make inane random one-liner posts on how it got better with mana burn gone.
[/rant]

Yeah, it shouldn't really warrent any more discussion. It is what it is.

However, my main debatable point for the deck now, is the viability of spell snare in the main deck. I noticed on sunday, that i believe i sided it in every game, as it was always useful. However, my main issue was with what to side out for it.

A lot of the time, since i play 4x wake thrashers, i would take out a few just for the sake of them being redundant. Also they came out against thresh w/ red, since i feared getting them fire/ice'd to death.

Another card that came out a few times was daze. Especially on the draw game two, when theyre a land ahead of you, and can almost always pay it. Daze shined for me mostly for forcing through the early vial, which makes in invaluable game one, and i would never want to get rid of them completely.

I think i may try my exact build, except for the following changes in the maindeck:

-1 Wake Thrasher
-1 Daze
-1 _______ (not quite sure yet)

+3 Spell Snare

The only issue i see now, is that spell snare is better game two, as on the play, theyll be about to cast their two drop when you have one land, and its perfect, especially in conjunction with daze back up. It also has pretty good surprise value, as most people didnt expect spell snares coming out of the board.

My problem: I know i want them somewhere in the 75 cards, but I've yet to decide their best place

[johanessen]

That's it. Wake thrasher gets slightly better, I can't get why that list plays 4 copies of that. Also, I think that Back to Basics is not optimally in Merfolks, but maybe that's a meta call, plenty of nonbasic lands. I suppose nowadays people have suffered such nonbasic hate (wastelands, moon effects, indeed b2b) that most decks play basic lands.

On the other hand, I like Relic of Progenitus on Main deck, free space on sideboard for Blasts, Threads (maybe I would replace them for Mind Harness/Seasinger)

[Shawon]

It's silly in hindsight, but I used to be a huge fan of Spell Snare in Merfolk and I thought Stifle was awful and I'm not so hot on Spell Snare. Now, I'm in love with Stifle. Spell Snare is a good card, but you don't really have the space for it and you don't really need it MD. It's too reactive for MD. SB is okay, though.

Perhaps you should just consider the matchups in terms of knowing when to switch up Spell Snare and Daze. In any game, where you're on the draw, you risk too much tempo loss when you play Daze, whereas, Spell Snare is the nutz on turn 1 on the draw.

So, one general guideline is as follows:

On the play:

Keep Daze in.

On the draw:

Switch out Daze for Spell Snare.

[tyleredw]

That's it. Wake thrasher gets slightly better, I can't get why that list plays 4 copies of that. Also, I think that Back to Basics is not optimally in Merfolks, but maybe that's a meta call, plenty of nonbasic lands. I suppose nowadays people have suffered such nonbasic hate (wastelands, moon effects, indeed b2b) that most decks play basic lands.

On the other hand, I like Relic of Progenitus on Main deck, free space on sideboard for Blasts, Threads (maybe I would replace them for Mind Harness/Seasinger)

I play 4 in the maindeck currently because they fit the gameplan of the deck. Game 1, most of the time your job is to beat hard and fast (hopefully islandwalking) before your opponent can even set up their game plan while distrupting them with daze, force of will, and standstill. Wake thrashers provide huge threats that need to be dealt with, and can win the game instantly. I was never disappointed when i drew them. Even when i casually played against zoo that day on the side, i drew two of them, and they raced 3 creatures on my opponents side by themselves.

Game 2 and 3, theyre also useful, as this is the time in which many decks side in their sweepers, such as pyroclasms, firespouts, volcanic fallout, wrath, etc. After a sweeper, a lot of times you're back to square one, dropping down only one or two creatures. If wake thrasher is your only creature on the board, he can go the distance without any assistance from lords/reejereys. This can't be said for most of the other creatures in the deck. Worst case scenario, they were a good spot in the maindeck to get sided out, which is sometimes hard in a decklist so tight.

But as you could see from my earlier post, I am contemplating taking one out, as 3 might be the optimal number. But by no means is it awful as a 4-of.

Everyone doesn't have to play 4 in their build, but it seems to work out for me quite well so far.


Perhaps you should just consider the matchups in terms of knowing when to switch up Spell Snare and Daze. In any game, where you're on the draw, you risk too much tempo loss when you play Daze, whereas, Spell Snare is the nutz on turn 1 on the draw.

So, one general guideline is as follows:

On the play:

Keep Daze in.

On the draw:

Switch out Daze for Spell Snare.


Thats what I ended up doing a lot of the time, especially against CounterTop, where they slowroll enough to the point where daze becomes almost irrelevant. The sideboard may end up being their permanant home.

I used to run stifle, but cut it in attempt to just dump the whole mana denial aspect. Game one, I want to be tapping out to drop dudes all day, and smashing face, rather than worry that much about what my opponent is doing. Granted you dont want to overextend and get wrecked by a big sweeper and not be able to recover, but I feel as if the deck preforms better trying to be the aggressor game one, rather than slowing itself down with stifle and tidal warrior, and the like.

[lorddotm]

I play 4 in the maindeck currently because they fit the gameplan of the deck. Game 1, most of the time your job is to beat hard and fast (hopefully islandwalking) before your opponent can even set up their game plan while distrupting them with daze, force of will, and standstill. Wake thrashers provide huge threats that need to be dealt with, and can win the game instantly. I was never disappointed when i drew them. Even when i casually played against zoo that day on the side, i drew two of them, and they raced 3 creatures on my opponents side by themselves.

Game 2 and 3, theyre also useful, as this is the time in which many decks side in their sweepers, such as pyroclasms, firespouts, volcanic fallout, wrath, etc. After a sweeper, a lot of times you're back to square one, dropping down only one or two creatures. If wake thrasher is your only creature on the board, he can go the distance without any assistance from lords/reejereys. This can't be said for most of the other creatures in the deck. Worst case scenario, they were a good spot in the maindeck to get sided out, which is sometimes hard in a decklist so tight.

But as you could see from my earlier post, I am contemplating taking one out, as 3 might be the optimal number. But by no means is it awful as a 4-of.

Everyone doesn't have to play 4 in their build, but it seems to work out for me quite well so far.




Thats what I ended up doing a lot of the time, especially against CounterTop, where they slowroll enough to the point where daze becomes almost irrelevant. The sideboard may end up being their permanant home.

I used to run stifle, but cut it in attempt to just dump the whole mana denial aspect. Game one, I want to be tapping out to drop dudes all day, and smashing face, rather than worry that much about what my opponent is doing. Granted you dont want to overextend and get wrecked by a big sweeper and not be able to recover, but I feel as if the deck preforms better trying to be the aggressor game one, rather than slowing itself down with stifle and tidal warrior, and the like.

I strongly disagree with your position on where to take Merfolk. Merfolk is a deck with little to no late game, or even a midgame, that is why we have the disruption we do, to keep the other guy from doing what they do. I used to be of the camp that hated Stifle, not seeing why it would be used in the deck, then I tried a playset of them, and fell in love. Stifles and Wastelands keep the other guy off balance. You said that you had problems using Daze against ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh decks, well that might be because you dont have Stifles and Wastelands to slow them down and force them to play into your Dazes, Cursecatchers, and Force of Wills.

Also, Wake Thrasher is kind of slow, the turn he comes down he is useless, and after that he is a house. I would never run more than 2, let alone a full palyset. Those Wake Thrashers are powerful, but three mana in a deck with 19 lands, 4 of them Wastelands, is a lot.

For reference here is my list:

Creatures-18
4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
2 Wake Thrasher

Instants-11
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Echoing Truth

Artifacts-4
4 Æther Vial

Enchantments-4
4 Standstill

Lands-19
4 Wasteland
3 Mutavault
12 Island

Sideboard
2 Mind Harness
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Relic of Progenitus
4 Hydroblast
4 Submerge

[tyleredw]

I strongly disagree with your position on where to take Merfolk. Merfolk is a deck with little to no late game, or even a midgame, that is why we have the disruption we do, to keep the other guy from doing what they do. I used to be of the camp that hated Stifle, not seeing why it would be used in the deck, then I tried a playset of them, and fell in love. Stifles and Wastelands keep the other guy off balance. You said that you had problems using Daze against ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh decks, well that might be because you dont have Stifles and Wastelands to slow them down and force them to play into your Dazes, Cursecatchers, and Force of Wills.

Also, Wake Thrasher is kind of slow, the turn he comes down he is useless, and after that he is a house. I would never run more than 2, let alone a full palyset. Those Wake Thrashers are powerful, but three mana in a deck with 19 lands, 4 of them Wastelands, is a lot.

I don't hate stifle, and i used to have 3-4 in my maindeck for months. And the fact that the deck has very little late and midgame is exactly the reason why i cut it. If you're devoting your entire strategy to the early game, you want to play with the same philosophy as an aggro deck. Lay down creatures and beat. Keeping one mana open for stifle is counterproductive. This is the same logic that makes the deck run daze and force of will, it cant afford to keep its mana open to counter things game one, cause it wants to use all its lands.

Also, I'm not sure where you got that i had trouble playing daze against Thresh. I never said that at all :eyebrow:

I do agree with you though that wake thrasher is expensive. I can see where playing many copies in a deck with 19 lands would be difficult. However, my list further up the page plays 21 lands, and can support him a little better. My main enjoyment from him comes from the fact that as soon as you drop him, they have to change their gameplan to deal with it, since when he hits, he hits hard. Go ahead, waste your bolt or fire/ice on him, and not on my 8 lords. At least in my experiance, the 3cc of thrasher is worth it.

I'm not trying to completely dismiss your points by any means. They're good points. Your meta may be a lot different than mine. However, 0x Stifle and 3-4x Thrasher shines over here.

[Finn]

I think the fact that Spell Snare and Stifle fulfill the same role in part is important in this discussion. They really do very similar things for this deck, but against different opponents in a lot of cases. They are both good to be sure, and I wish we could run them both. For me, Stifle seems to do the job against a wider array of the tough matchups so I am keeping them.

Tyler, I like what you have to say. But seeing as how you did not lose even one game in the tournament, perhaps you have got overkill - and could stand to broaden the scope of your build. That is - if the meta shifts to counter your Merfolk strategy better.

In particular, for game 2, you could actually go:

-1 Wakethrasher
-2 lands
+3 Spell Snare (or Stifle, depending on how you do this)

[tivadar]

I used to run stifle, but cut it in attempt to just dump the whole mana denial aspect. Game one, I want to be tapping out to drop dudes all day, and smashing face, rather than worry that much about what my opponent is doing. Granted you dont want to overextend and get wrecked by a big sweeper and not be able to recover, but I feel as if the deck preforms better trying to be the aggressor game one, rather than slowing itself down with stifle and tidal warrior, and the like.

If you're dropping the mana denial aspect, you ought to think about wasteland as well. If you do, consider a non-basic replacement perhaps? Obviously you could strengthen your standstill aspect with something like Mishra's Factory. You could also try out some acceleration. I know ancient tomb is horrible for LOA, but it does power out reejerey and thrasher. Mind you, I'm not sold on these ideas, just throwing out some suggestions.

[Finn]

Tivadar, I think I would keep Wasteland in this deck no matter what. Of course, I think abandoning the mana denial aspect is just crazy too.

Also, OP updated. I think eventually it will be decent.

[AcidFiend]

I'm pretty much sold on this shell, and have been testing cards in the '3 card slot'.

57-Card Shell:
4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
2 Wake Thrasher
4 Spell Snare
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Æther Vial
4 Standstill
3 ???
4 Wasteland
3 Mutavault
12 Island

I tried 3 x Echoing Truth and while it wasn't bad, I felt I could do better. Most of the time it just stalled a Goyf for a turn then it bashed my face. I tested 3 x Stifle, which again didn't cut the mustard for me. Almost everyone played around it, and when I did draw it/use it, it was 'eh'. In Game 1 since I often leave mana open for Spell Snare anyways (depending on matchup), most people slow down in case I have Stifle. This has been debated greatly already, so I don't mean to fan the flames. If you run and like Stifle, power to you.

I analysed my losses and 4/5 games were from a resolved creature I couldn't deal with (Goyf/Dreadnought/Tombstalker). So next I'll be testing a 4th Mutavault and 2 Sower of Temptation. Its four mana is only a tick over from Aether Vial @ 3, and it gives me an answer to mise for when they resolve a fatty, which this deck never had.

[Jeff Kruchkow]

I'm pretty much sold on this shell, and have been testing cards in the '3 card slot'.

57-Card Shell:
4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
2 Wake Thrasher
4 Spell Snare
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Æther Vial
4 Standstill
3 ???
4 Wasteland
3 Mutavault
12 Island

I tried 3 x Echoing Truth and while it wasn't bad, I felt I could do better. Most of the time it just stalled a Goyf for a turn then it bashed my face. I tested 3 x Stifle, which again didn't cut the mustard for me. Almost everyone played around it, and when I did draw it/use it, it was 'eh'. In Game 1 since I often leave mana open for Spell Snare anyways (depending on matchup), most people slow down in case I have Stifle. This has been debated greatly already, so I don't mean to fan the flames. If you run and like Stifle, power to you.

I analysed my losses and 4/5 games were from a resolved creature I couldn't deal with (Goyf/Dreadnought/Tombstalker). So next I'll be testing a 4th Mutavault and 2 Sower of Temptation. Its four mana is only a tick over from Aether Vial @ 3, and it gives me an answer to mise for when they resolve a fatty, which this deck never had.

IMO deck should have at least 2x kira. shes good. really good.

[keys]

I tried 3 x Echoing Truth and while it wasn't bad, I felt I could do better. Most of the time it just stalled a Goyf for a turn then it bashed my face.

...

I analysed my losses and 4/5 games were from a resolved creature I couldn't deal with (Goyf/Dreadnought/Tombstalker).

Doesn't Truth deal with both Nought and Stalker?

[Patrunkenphat7]

What about 2 Psionic Blasts? Seems like it could be a good finisher and decent removal.

[tyleredw]

What about 2 Psionic Blasts? Seems like it could be a good finisher and decent removal.

Psionic Blast isn't a good answer for us. Dealing extra damage to the face isn't usually needed, and as removal, its garbage. If you're facing a creature that can be dealt with by only 4 damage, its not a threat to begin with. The issues this deck has are with resolved huge creatures, such as 5/6 Tarmogoyfs, Tombstalkers, Dreadnaughts, etc. Psionic Blast just straight cant kill dreadnaught ever, and goyfs will almost always be bigger than 3/4's.


Tivadar, I think I would keep Wasteland in this deck no matter what.

Agreed. Even without a huge LD package, wasteland is just too good to cut.

[AcidFiend]

Doesn't Truth deal with both Nought and Stalker?

It does, but given the choice I'd rather rip a Sower off the top. Then they are on the clock, instead of just slowed by a turn with E.T. Also you can potentially Vial in Sower, avoiding counters.

I'll add Kira on my list to test, as a lot of the time my Lords eat a Swords/Gempalm.

[_erbs_]

Hello,
Has anyone tried the splash green version for SB and tarmo purposes....

If so was it good or bad ?

Im thinking of running the green splash as our meta is filled with counter top, rock and goblins..

My current deck list is
______________________________
Lands
3 wasteland
2 mutavault
14 island
19

Creatures
4 cursecatcher
2 tidal warrior
3 inkphatom infiltrator
3 silvergill adept
4 lord of atlantis
4 merrow reejerey
3 wake thrasher
23

Spells
2 umezawa's jitte
4 aether vial
4 force of will
3 daze
3 ponder
2 stifle
18

SB
2 stifle
3 phyrexian dreadnought
1 relic of progenitus
1 tormod's crypt
2 thorn of amethyst
2 submerge
2 echoing truth
2 spell snare
_____________________________

I plan to convert it to something like this

_____________________________
Lands
4 tropical island
1 forest
4 windswept heath
3 wasteland
7 island
19

Creatures
4 cursecatcher
2 tidal warrior
3 inkphatom infiltrator
1 silvergill adept
4 tarmogoyf
4 lord of atlantis
3 merrow reejerey
2 wake thrasher
22

Spells
2 umezawa's jitte
4 aether vial
4 force of will
3 daze
3 ponder
2 stifle
18

SB
2 stifle
3 phyrexian dreadnought
1 relic of progenitus
1 tormod's crypt
2 krosan grip
1 trigon predator
3 thorn of amethyst
1 spell snare
1 echoing truth
______________________________

What do you think ? or going mono colored is much better ?

Thanks

[whosyourdaddy]

I plan to convert it to something like this

_____________________________
Lands
4 tropical island
1 forest
4 windswept heath
3 wasteland
7 island
19

Creatures
4 cursecatcher
2 tidal warrior
3 inkphatom infiltrator
1 silvergill adept
4 tarmogoyf
4 lord of atlantis
3 merrow reejerey
2 wake thrasher
22

Spells
2 umezawa's jitte
4 aether vial
4 force of will
3 daze
3 ponder
2 stifle
18

SB
2 stifle
3 phyrexian dreadnought
1 relic of progenitus
1 tormod's crypt
2 krosan grip
1 trigon predator
3 thorn of amethyst
1 spell snare
1 echoing truth
______________________________

What do you think ? or going mono colored is much better ?

Thanks

If you ask me(and I know you propably won't ;p), I'll say go try white splash. I believe it's kinda more 'natural' choice for this deck as it gives you the crucial removal and also opens a lot of SB choices. An if you want some non-merf fattie try MD Jotun Grunt. It's bigger than most 1 and 2cc creatures and has a built-in tarmo-shrink-bility(or general grave hate utility). It has been working pretty amazing for me. I'm pretty sure white ist better choice, but obviousley, I haven't tried green so I might be wrong.
Anyway here's my list I've been testing for a while and I'm 100% (so far) satisfied with it:

4x Polluted Delta
4x Mutavault
3x Tundra
7x Island
(yeah, yeah, I know, no wasteland ;p)

4x Merrow Reejerey
4x LoA
4x Cursecatcher
4x Silvergill Adept
3x Jotun Grunt

4x Aether Vial

4x Fow
4x Daze
4x Brainstorm
4x Stp
3x Standstill

SB:(still unfinished and yet a bit random)

4x Hydroblast
2x Absolute law
1x Jotun Grunt
2x Mind Harness
3x Seal of Cleansing
3x Disrupt

Btw, to anyone who tried white splash: what do you think about this sideboard?
Last time I wanted to board against goblins I was unable to decide what to take out for 2 Absolute Law and some blasts.
-4Stp / +4Hydroblast seems like a logical choice, but I didn't want to loose to not being able to kill piledriver. I wonder what would you do in this particular situation.

[Yan]

Hi guys.

To me it has been a 55-card shell for some time now.

4 Mutavault
4 Wasteland
11 Island

4 Lord of Atlanti
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Cursecatcher

4 AEther Vial
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Spell Snare
4 Standstill

Spell Snare can be swapped for Stifle but I like Stifle more from out of the board. So that leaves the deck with 5 open slots that I have been testing with various formations. After all that my conclusion was this:

3 Echoing Truth
2 Vendilion Clique

ET answers most problems that could come up. It is versatile and cheap and easily the best bounce spell available. Clique is difficult to explain because it takes the slot where most people play Wake Thrashers. I can only say that I was dissapointed in Thrasher and wanted to try something else. Thrasher is cute but it dies virtually to everything, well so does Clique but atleast it does something. Flying is also a big plus. It can also fix your hand and is overally a very versatile card.

I've played about 30 games now with Clique and I can recall 2 games where it was a problem with silvergill adept because Clique is not a merfolk. But there were many others when I ripped their mass removal out their hand and won the next turn. 3/1 body is no joke either because of the flying.

I'm sure many of you wont even try it because Wake Thrasher just randomly beats so much more. But this is for those who are also a bit dissapointed on thrasher and want them to do a bit more.

My board looks like this:

4 Stifle
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Threads of Disloyalty
3 Divert
2 Umezawa's Jitte

[Nekrataal]

Hello,
Has anyone tried the splash green version for SB and tarmo purposes....

If so was it good or bad ?

Im thinking of running the green splash as our meta is filled with counter top, rock and goblins..



Well if I would go for just one color (I currently play Ugw) then it woul be green. You get the best beater of the format and the best answer to CBT. White only adds StoP and a few sideboard choices to improve your R matchups if you dedicate at least 4 or 6 slots for it. From deckcheck I would say that Ug currently is more popular but in general I think that splashing which also includes adding Brainstorm / Fetchlands is a very successful approach.

[Patrunkenphat7]

What do you guys think about this list?

4 Mutavault
4 Wasteland
12 Island

4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Cursecatcher
3 Wake Thrasher
2 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner

4 AEther Vial
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Snare
4 Standstill

SB: not sure yet

Should I go to 19 land? Too many 3-drops?

I opted for 1 more land than some lists because of the slightly higher curve due to Kira, and I really wanted to run 4 Mutavault. Advice from experienced players would be greatly appreciated!

Changes I might make:
-1 Wake Thrasher
-1 Island (or Mutavault?)
+2 Relic of Progenitus

[Finn]

Keep in mind that Kira is really only ever necessary against Burn or Goyf Sligh. It has applications outside of those matchups, but in all other cases there are other cards that do the job better (Blue Blast, Chill, Misdirection, etc). If the meta has so many hostile corner case matchups, choose another deck. Kira won't turn those matchups significantly in your favor anyway, so I don't see any time I would ever use it.

Also, going below 13 Islands is taking a chance. Not huge, but you are going to be mulliganing extra hands.

Finally, are you really comfortable with not a single removal spell in your 60?

[lorddotm]

I won a Moat draft yesterday with this list:

Creatures-18
4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
2 Wake Thrasher

Instants-11
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Echoing Truth

Artifacts-4
4 Æther Vial

Enchantments-4
4 Standstill

Lands-19
4 Wasteland
3 Mutavault
12 Island

Sideboard
2 Mind Harness
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Relic of Progenitus
4 Hydroblast
4 Submerge


I beat Goyf Sligh, this was my boarding plan:

-4 Force of Will
-4 Daze
-2 Stifle
-2 Standstill

+2 Mind Harness
+2 Umezawa's Jitte
+4 Hydroblast
+4 Submerge

[Antonius]

hah, I got 3rd at the same tournament mr lorddotm was in yesterday. This was my list:

(19) Land
4 Wasteland
3 Mutavault
12 Island

(20) Creatures
4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
2 Wake Thrasher
2 Phyrexian Dreadnought

(21) Spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3 Daze
2 Relic of Progenitus
4 Standstill

(15) SB
1 Relic of Progenitus
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Spell Snare
2 Sea Singer
2 Threads of Disloyalty
3 Submerge

Tourney Report:

First Round vs Countertop (i think it was called Probasco?)

First game I made a major misplay that could have made the game very, very different. Second turn, I have a Lord out with a standstill, stifle, Force and Dreadnought in hand. He has five cards and two lands. My game plan was to reserve the stiflenought and force him to spend his removal on the merfolk first.

He plays a goyf and I spend about thirty seconds agonizing over whether to pitch Stifle or Standstill to Force it.
**It wasn't until later that I realized the choice was rather illusory: The best play would have probably been to let the Goyf resolve, then play nought and just trample over and either play standstill the turn after or hold it to use the Force to defend the Nought. Major misplay on my part; That nought could have won me the game.

Either way, I decided to Force the goyf, pitching stifle. My next turn, I draw a vial, play the vial and the standstill. He breaks the standstill playing a brainstorm. I draw three, including another standstill. he plays top. my next turn, i put counters on the vial and drop the other standstill.

He rolls his eyes like he's fucked and by all accounts, he really ought to be. So how the rest of the game turned out just blows my mind. he breaks the second standstill, I draw a couple of lands and a merfolk--no counters--he plays counter balance, uses the lock to keep me from laying more threats (I had three fish out at the time), then tops himself into two shackles and a goyf. He stops my merfolk advance at 1 life (!!!) before locking it down, stealing all my creatures, dropping a second goyf and winning the game.

Pitching the stifle was something I regretted for the rest of the tourney

I boarded:
-3 Daze
+3 Spell Snare

Game two - I get the "landstill draw" - an island, a vault, a force and two snares I sided in. I keep his board clean, draw more counters and end up just beating him down with vaults.

Game three - I get another control draw full of forces, snares, stifles and one lord of atlantis. Somewhere along the line, I apply light pressure with my lord and another folk, then draw two more stifles and a Nought. With two of my folk on teh board, he gets out counter top and passes turn with one land open and one fetch. He pops the fetch and I burn one of my stifles on it. His balance reveals brainstorm, so he gets his land anyway.

On my turn, I play my stiflenought; he tops and has no 1cc on top of the library. He tries to put the top on top of his library. I use the second stifle on the top. He has no other answers and I grin thinking I got him. Next turn, he plays an explosives for one. I shouldn't have burned the third stifle on a fetch. Again, I lost the game because I misplayed the stiflenought.

0-1

Second round: I played the mirrormatch, against mr lorddotm who just posted his list.

first game, he mulls down to 5; I win.

I board:
-2 Dreadnought
-4 Stifle
+3 Spell Snare
+2 Seasinger
+1 Threads

second game, He got the good draw and I made a pretty major misplay--the details of which, i can't even remember. He wins

Third game, I get a first turn vial, snare his lord, vial some more merfolk before vialing in seasinger and winning the game.
Mr. dotm drops to 0-2; yet somehow manges to miraculously turn it around, make top 8, beat the first seed Goyfsligh and get first overall. But that's his story, not mine.

1-1

Third Round: I play versus Charbelcher. I daze. I stifle. I force. Second game I spell snared. Fairly unremarkable matchup. I win both games

2-3

Fourth Round: I play versus a fairly undeveloped Affinity deck

First game, I get a turn 1 vial, two wastelands a handful of folk and no other lands. I waste both of his Artifact lands, keeping him from playing the myr enforcers in his hand and I just vial in giant merfolk. He dies to wake thrasher.

I board:
-2 Relic of Progenitus
+2 Threads of Disloyalty

Second game, I get no vial but actually draw islands. He's forced to break my second turn stand still after I start beating him with a vault. I draw more folk, he thoughtcasts, drops three frogmites and eventually plays a ravager. We race each other for a bit, he gets me down to five life. I get two Lords and a reejery out, allowing me to block against those frogs. He gets his ravager to five, then trades it in combat versus my pumped silvergill, dumping the counters on a freshly summoned ornithopter.

My turn, I play threads on the ornithoper, then win two turns later.

3-1

Fifth round: versus a BGW Rogue deck. not exactly the rock, but I'm not sure how to describe it. He ran Thoughtsiezes, Tidehollow sculler, duress, Pridemages, Hierarchs, etc.

First game: He plays a top, I play a wasteland. I was counting on drawing the island. I don't draw an island for five turns. He spends five turns drawing lands. Once he's six lands out, he wastes my waste. I finally get an island he vindicates. My third island, he sink holes.
Once he's at about eight lands, he finally draws threats and I lose. Somewhere along the line in the game, he thoughtsiezed me a couple of times and saw my dreadnought. So, i had to board them out

I sided:
-2 Dreadnought
-4 Stifle
+3 Spell Snare
+3 Submerge

Second game: I get the typical fish draw, Submerge (aka TIME WALK!) his hierarch, walk all over him.

Third game: He was able to pull a few cards with Tidehollow, but overall, the result was the same: I played lords, silvergils and a reejerey, then used the reejerey ability to maneuver around his goyf and beat him down.

4-1

First round of Top eight - Rematch with the Countertop/Probasco player:

First game: This time, I didn't even see a nought; but I got the typical fish draw. He was running islands so I beat him down and dazed out his answers.

I boarded:
-2 Dreadnought
-1 Standstill
-3 Daze
-2 Wake thrasher

+3 Spell Snare
+2 Seasinger
+3 Submerge

Second game: He spends all his removal on trying to get rid of seasinger before I steal his goyf. I beat with the other folk. He steals Seasinger with shackles and uses it to chump a reejerey. next turn he plays a goyf, which I submerge for a time walk, then play lord. And I have too many merfolk and too much island walk to be stopped.

5-1

Top 4: against UG Coatl/Dryad Grow with Winter Orb. Of note, I would say that the dude piloting this deck overall outplayed me. I made a lot of misplays that cost me at least one of the games.

First game - I got the typical fish draw, Islandwalked around and played through his winter orb. He got a dryad out but couldnt race my Folk.

I boarded:
-2 Dreadnought
-1 Daze
-1 Standstill
-2 Stifle
-2 Relic
-2 Wake Thrasher
+3 Spell Snare
+2 Seasinger
+3 Submerge
+2 Threads of Disloyalty

Second game - i snared his winter orb, but he was still able to get an early Coatl and Dryad. I can't draw enough threats to chump and keep up race, eventually he plays propaganda, which seals the deal.

Third game - this was the one where i made quite a few errors

First turn, I play an island, second turn I draw a vial and play it off a wasteland, holding the mana open for a spell snare. His turn, he plays Coatl off a hierach, tapping out. I bounce my uptapped island to daze. He bounces his tapped Island to daze. And I'm just like...fuuuuuck. I should have floated !

either way, my hand was still looking good. I had a vial out, two reejereys, a lord and a seasinger in hand--I thought I could win off the back of seasinger alone. He gets out two more coatls and propaganda and even with three lords, I can't keep up with the size of them. I'm forced to chump several times with silvergills, curscatchers, etc but I get a seasinger online and steal one of his biggest coatls.

This pretty much brings the game to an Impasse; which he's hesitant to throw his coatls into mine and I can just pay 2 to islandwalk for 3 dmg every turn. This goes on for a couple of turns (I occassionally forget to put +1/+1 counters on my coatl for my draws; another one of my misplays) On one of his combat phases, he attacks with two mana open.

I try to waste his tropicals so he can't play brainstorms as combat tricks. In response, he plays Opt, then thwarts his own opt, in the process returning all three of his islands to his hand.

I misplay by attacking a now null island walk, which he blocks; then he attacks, we trade coatls and I'm forced to chump one by one against his last coatl because seasinger is void. I can't top deck an answer and I lose.

So, in the end i went 5-2; I was kicking myself over the daze and stifle plays, but In the end I was happy with third. I got the prize I wanted (an underground sea) and probably would have chosen it over the moat if I had won first.

[Barsoom]

Nice report lorddotm, quite entertaining to read.


Top 4: against UG Coatl/Dryad Grow with Winter Orb.

I'm really interested on this deck's decklist; do you know something about it maybe?

[Finn]

I played against that Coatl deck and found Merfolk well-equipped to beat it. It felt like playing against Threshold but an even easier win.

[lavafrogg]

lol, that was a horrible coatl deck and you know it! It was filled with wrong card choices. I believe your exact words were "He fell into the danger of cool things".

[lorddotm]

Here is my report

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14023

[Finn]

lol, that was a horrible coatl deck and you know it! It was filled with wrong card choices. I believe your exact words were "He fell into the danger of cool things".

Yeah I did. And I still think Cliff's deck was in need of some attention. (I wanted his Looters to be Tarmos) But I looked into it here:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13971

...and it looks like what I said. Threshold, but an even easier win.

Still the deck looks interesting. And I hope it gets attention.

[iamajellydonut]

Landx19
6 * Island
3 * Flooded Strand
3 * Mutavault
3 * Polluted Delta
4 * Tropical Island

Creaturesx30
4 * Cursecatcher
4 * Lord of Atlantis
4 * Merrow Reejerey
4 * Silvergill Adept
4 * Stonybrook Banneret
4 * Tidal Courier
2 * Tarmogoyf
4 * Selkie Hedge-Mage

Other Spellsx11
4 * Daze
4 * Force of Will
3 * Chrome Mox
----------------
Sideboard
4 * Chill
3 * Spell Snare
4 * Submerge
4 * Relic of Progenitus


It's not quite the control that regular Merfolk is, but it does a good job of defending itself, can get extremely fierce wins, and usually manages to get all damage through.

The sideboard is tentative. Selkie Hedge-Mage could be the best card in the deck. Throwing Adept or Courier back to your hand for another round, or bouncing Dreadnought and saving your ass are both great plays.

[idraleo]

No Aether Vial+standstill is the epic fail ever. Banneret and Chrome Mox is simply disgusting in this deck :|

[gravemind123]

Aether Vial is one card I would really not play this deck without. Landing one early on makes your creatures uncounterable for the rest of the game and it lets you play better under Standstill than just about any other deck. It lets you drop threats and keep mana open to either Stifle things, use sideboard cards that need mana like Jitte, Threads, Seasinger, BEB and if nothing else, just play two merfolk in one turn.

On Chrome Mox: I would need to test this card myself or read results on it before I write it off, but a few facts, like that it is card disadvantage and that I have never felt like I needed faster mana or more mana with this deck makes me think it is a weak choice.

[tivadar]

I can see possibly dropping standstill, but people are right, this deck lives off of vial. Chrome Mox is no real replacement, as it still leaves your merfolk counterable. Obviously the casting cost is high for a crappy P/T, but what's the motivation behind no Tidal Courier in the standard build out of curiosity? ESP with echoing truth, couldn't he be a standstill replacement?

[Shawon]

I think Tidal Courier isn't run because you don't run enough Merfolk cards to make it consistently draw 3 or 4 cards. Furthermore, revealing Force of Will off of Tidal Courier and putting it on the bottom of the library is a major downer :(

[Finn]

The "no chrome mox" logic is simple.

1. You are playing Wasteland unless you have no understanding of the deck.
2. Ditto Standstill.
3. So Ditto Mutavault.
4. Now you have 7 or so lands that are not Islands. So you need ~13 Islands.
5. If 4 of those are Chrome Mox instead, you are not playing Daze any more.
6. You are playing Daze unless you have no understanding of this deck.

As for why no Tidal Courier, Mutavault is the short answer. But it goes like this.

1. The deck played Tidal Courier for draw, which sucked because you wanted the Vial at 3, and you had to play ~24 Merfolk (including Bannerets because I was looking at Goblins for guidance on how to land me some 4cc creatures) to make it only suck a little.
2. Mutavault gets printed. It is way better than Factory in this deck.
3. Standstill looks much better than it used to.
4. -3 Rishadan Port, -4 Tidal Courier, +3 Mutavault, +4 Standstill and the deck is about 3x faster with better card draw while losing only 1 attacker and 3 Port effects. Quite the bargain.

[Piceli89]

I finally come back to this topic to announce You, my dear Merfolk brothers, that a NEW FUCKING MERFOLK LORD IS COMING OUT WITH M10 !!!!!

Merfolk Sovereign 1UU
Creature — Merfolk (Rare)
Other Merfolk creatures you control get +1/+1.
tap: Target Merfolk creature is unblockable this turn.
“The sharks envy our ferocity. The eels envy our cunning.”
2/2

So, basically that's another lord with a pumping ability. With 12 lords now We are able to power a real huge fishes army. The question is rethoric: what should we take out for him? I mean, he costs 3, which would make a possible 12-lord configuration even slower. The point is Sovereign works very well with Thrasher, making it an unblockable enormous beef ready to kill the opponent in 2-3 turns.

We need re-tweaking our list. I'm considering, with such high-costed merfolks, Banneret again.

[elof]

I finally come back to this topic to announce You, my dear Merfolk brothers, that a NEW FUCKING MERFOLK LORD IS COMING OUT WITH M10 !!!!!

Merfolk Sovereign 1UU
Creature — Merfolk (Rare)
Other Merfolk creatures you control get +1/+1.
tap: Target Merfolk creature is unblockable this turn.
“The sharks envy our ferocity. The eels envy our cunning.”
2/2

So, basically that's another lord with a pumping ability. With 12 lords now We are able to power a real huge fishes army. The question is rethoric: what should we take out for him? I mean, he costs 3, which would make a possible 12-lord configuration even slower. The point is Sovereign works very well with Thrasher, making it an unblockable enormous beef ready to kill the opponent in 2-3 turns.

We need re-tweaking our list. I'm considering, with such high-costed merfolks, Banneret again.

As a fact, I'm currently researching my way back to the merfolks :) Good luck I didn't sell my Beta Lords :D

I do however think it's worse than Reejerey but it can still be useful.

A first list could be:
13 Island
3 Mutavault
4 Wasteland

4 Merfolk Sovereign
4 Merrow Reejerey
2 Wake Thrasher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Cursecatcher

4 Force of Will
4 Standstill
4 Daze
4 AEther Vial
2 Echoing Truth

The other cards I'm considering is:
Umezawa's Jitte
Stifle

Thoughts?

[Shawon]

Merfolk Sovereign 1UU
Creature — Merfolk (Rare)
Other Merfolk creatures you control get +1/+1.
tap: Target Merfolk creature is unblockable this turn.
“The sharks envy our ferocity. The eels envy our cunning.”
2/2

Ehhh, why couldn't it have been just UU?

Seems ok. As a three-drop, I think the question at hand is what three drop to cut for it. Given you already run LoA for unblockability, I think Merrow Reejerey is the superior lord, if you had to pick him or Sovereign. With that said, is this guy better than Wake Thrasher?

If you run this guy, I don't see how you can't run Jitte in the same deck. Ditto with Inkfathom Infiltrator.

[whosyourdaddy]

Wow o.O I didn't expect that. Too bad it's 3cc, but still worth trying. Any way with 8 3cc lords + x Wake Thrashers the deck would get extremely clunky so I'm not that extatic about that(which doesn't mean I'm not gonna try them out;))

[Patrunkenphat7]

Ehhh, why couldn't it have been just UU?

Seems ok. As a three-drop, I think the question at hand is what three drop to cut for it. Given you already run LoA for unblockability, I think Merrow Reejerey is the superior lord, if you had to pick him or Sovereign. With that said, is this guy better than Wake Thrasher?

If you run this guy, I don't see how you can't run Jitte in the same deck. Ditto with Inkfathom Infiltrator.

I see his ability only being quite good WITH Wake Thrasher, so I don't know if this guy is gonna have a spot. Maybe if you wanted to replace a non-merfolk spell with him (like bounce), but thats risky.

[Finn]

Yeah. This guy looks like he is going to be the least powerful of the three. With so few creatures typically on the field at any given time mixed with the fact that Reejerey can be used for sick business like untapping a Vial and such (and without tapping itself to do so) his ability to tap a blocker (again without causing him to tap) looks like it accomplishes the same task quite often. I am going to say that Reejerey is better for this deck, and it is not even close.

I think the comparison is even further from close when you match him up against Lord of Atlantis. At one mana less, and with a pretty fair number of decks having islands, he pretty much accomplishes the same task better. For all your guys. Without tapping.

[GrAsH]

With that new Merfolk I'm thinking to build something like this:

Vial Merfolk

Lands
11 Island
3 Mutavault
4 Wasteland

Creatures
4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
3 Merrow Reejerey
3 Merfolk Sovereign
2 Wake Thrasher

Spells
4 Standstill
3 Stifle
4 Daze
3 Echoing Truth
4 Force of Will
4 Aether Vial

Cutting a Reejerey (or a Adept?) and a Stifle maybe it's a way to put the new Lord. I'll test with proxies LOL. :tongue: And that said, Merfolk maybe gonna take a chance in Extended too, with 3 lords and Cryptic Command, etc.

[Piceli89]

After quick thoughts, if you ask to me, i think that if we want to play the new lord , first of all it'll be in 2x, because it's damnly subpar to to the ol', better lords.
Moreover, if i were to play it , i would give up quite entirely the tempo approach Merfolk has had since now; with so many cc3s, wasteland can hurt yourself more than the opponent, in the fact that you stifle your game development. Even stifle loses pretty much power ( if he hasn't already done it). I'd even try Mishra's Factory at this point instead of wasteland, allowing to slow down the early game ( when a 10-11 lord configuration would suffer best) and maximize standstill ( and mutavault, which becomes incredibly strong with all those pump effects) too, whih should be played in the early phases to get this effect.
Can seem weird, but i think this version of Merfolks could be more resilient to all the removal and the Tarmogoyfs Legacy is infested with; but, on the other side, matchups like Zoo or Sligh, usually based on the first turns , would get even worse if we were to wait some turns more to power up a full army of pumped fishes. Still an interesting concept, in any case. Maybe i'll put down a list these days.

[(nameless one)]

honestly, i think the new merfolk lord doesnt have a place in legacy merfolk.

we already have lord of atlantis and 80% of legacy runs islands.

i would have been so much better if he has a glass-spinning effect

i really hope the last remaining merfolk in M10 is good enough to be part of this family

[Shawon]

i really hope the last remaining merfolk in M10 is good enough to be part of this family

Specifically, a 1-or-2 CC Merfolk to replace Silvergill Adept and Tidal Warrior.

[Linkin Pac]

I read the spoiled new Merfolk lord today and was overjoyed; people will disagree with me, but I think we should just drop Wake Thrasher in order to fit in the new card. What we now have is a fish deck with 12 lords; if I was presented with this a year ago before Thrasher came out, I wouldn't have even considered adding the Thrasher. For monoblue rush decks, getting the meat out there on your fishes was always the problem. Now, just play/Vial in a guy every turn and don't worry about the situationalness of Thrasher. If I were to keep the tempo version, I would probably start with something like this:

12 Island
4 Mutavault
4 Wasteland

4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Merfolk Sovreign

4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Standstill
4 Stifle
4 Aether Vial

I feel there's no need for the Thrasher, we have all just been spoiled by having a potential 7/7 beater for a turn. All you really need to do is keep laying down threats backed by the best disruption and card draw of the game in blue.

Piceli89, I am considering changing from the tempo version, but if you did so, what would you make of the mana base? Would you just keep it as 4 Mutavaults and 14-16 Islands, or try to add in another color? Adding White for StP might help the tempoless version.

[Patrunkenphat7]

I honestly think that changing this deck around too much is a bad idea. It's already doing quite well, and to completely refigure this deck for such a mediocre card seems like it's not a very good move. This excitement usually comes along with every spoiled set, but it will eventually subside after M10 comes out.

[Antonius]

If i were to accommodate the new Lord, then Wake Thrasher is probably the one to go. I dont think running more than 6 3cc folk is viable; theres no way i would run 10.

that said, Sovereign's viability depends on your meta. Lots of blue? countertop, etc? Thrasher is probably better in those two other 3cc slots. If you're worried about burn effects like Firespout, etc, then sovereign might be needed to bolster your defense. 10 lords means we just might be able to keep up with zoo's size.

all in all, I think the best place for Sovereign just might be in the Sideboard, as a 2-of.

[(nameless one)]

If i were to accommodate the new Lord, then Wake Thrasher is probably the one to go. I dont think running more than 6 3cc folk is viable; theres no way i would run 10.

that said, Sovereign's viability depends on your meta. Lots of blue? countertop, etc? Thrasher is probably better in those two other 3cc slots. If you're worried about burn effects like Firespout, etc, then sovereign might be needed to bolster your defense. 10 lords means we just might be able to keep up with zoo's size.

all in all, I think the best place for Sovereign just might be in the Sideboard, as a 2-of.

I agree but if youre trying to stay away from burn range, why not just run Kira?

[Antonius]

I agree but if youre trying to stay away from burn range, why not just run Kira?

Because she sucks; she doesn't defend you from Pyroclasm, Firespout or Volcanic Fallout.

[sherko7]

i don't really like this new guy. i'd have to take out kira or dreadnought from my list if i play sovereign, and i doubt he'd be able to compete with those guys.

[sorrel]

I wouldn't run Merfolk Sovereign. Because of the curve of the deck, the only thing this could replace is Wake Thrasher, and one of the nice things about this deck is after an initial rush gets wiped out, you can play Wake Thrasher and finish the game in a couple turns. You can't do that with the sovereign because on his own he's a 2/2. Running him means you have to over commit more than you already do, and now you don't have anything to follow up with when your initial rush is wiped out.

[tivadar]

I have to agree with most. I think at 3cc this new guy isn't worth running. Granted he's an interesting choice against goblins (unblockable, yes please), but I don't think he wins that matchup by any extent of the imagination and there are probably better choices from the board.

[elof]

I have an idéa I like to try, and that is something like this:

Lands 20 (will need config):
4 Tundra
3 Flooded Strand
1 Plains
5 Island
4 Mutavault
3 Mishra's Factory

Creatures 22:
4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
2 Sygg, River Guide
4 Merrow Reejerey
2 Merfolk Sovereign
2 Mirror Entity

Spells 18:
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Standstill
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial

Mirror Entity was cut before because it didn't work with Wake Thrasher but I always loved the effect it has with +1/+1 lords. Sover also gives you an edge in merfolk mirror becasue he/she only gives your guys plus. Swords also removes alot of problems and should perhaps be a 4 off?

Sygg we have been over before and although it's abillity isn't that good, it does have a good body. Could be replaced with alot of other spells if you want.

[beastman]

I'm amused that the emergence of this new lord is provoking people to post for the first time on the site... just to say that they dont like him.

[sherko7]

Because she sucks; she doesn't defend you from Pyroclasm, Firespout or Volcanic Fallout.

kira is extremely helpful, especially when it enters through vial. so many times have i negated an opponent's stp on my loa by vialling it in.:tongue:

[Piceli89]

kira is extremely helpful, especially when it enters through vial. so many times have i negated an opponent's stp on my loa by vialling it in.:tongue:

Yeah, that's the right way to cheat, mate !

[Hopo]

Yeah, that's the right way to cheat, mate !

And here piceli means that you cannot do that. If Swords to plowshares is on the stack, vialing in Kira does nothing about it. Rules ftw.

[sherko7]

And here piceli means that you cannot do that. If Swords to plowshares is on the stack, vialing in Kira does nothing about it. Rules ftw.

lol wtf i did it in a tourney... really thats illegal?

opponent: "stp your loa"
you: "in response, i vial in kira"

illegal?? oh my! anyone wanna clarify?:)

[tivadar]

Kira has a triggered ability that triggers when a creature becomes the target of a spell. When someone announces a spell being cast, part of that is choosing targets. So if you vial in Kira after the spell has been announced (and targets chosen), his ability will never trigger.

If, however, his ability read "the first spell targetting a creature you control each turn is countered", then the story might be different. "When" means triggered, and triggered means if Kira's not around when the triggering effect happens, the ability doesn't apply.

[Patrunkenphat7]

Yeah, even a writer on magicthegathering.com got this wrong a few years ago, it's a relatively common mistake.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

_

[Tacosnape]

@The U/W Splash: How exactly does Mirror Entity not work with Wake Thrasher?

I've been playing this deck a lot lately, and Wake Thrasher's ridiculous. The new rules changes made him way better, not only because of the Mana Burn rules, but because people aren't playing nearly as many Mogg Fanatics (This assumption has skyrocketed play of everything from Confidant to Welder ro Wake Thrasher in my metagame).

I've also been tinkering around with a Back to Basics-packing list. Loving it with Daze and Cursecatcher for mass havoc-wreaking.

[sherko7]

Kira has a triggered ability that triggers when a creature becomes the target of a spell. When someone announces a spell being cast, part of that is choosing targets. So if you vial in Kira after the spell has been announced (and targets chosen), his ability will never trigger.

If, however, his ability read "the first spell targetting a creature you control each turn is countered", then the story might be different. "When" means triggered, and triggered means if Kira's not around when the triggering effect happens, the ability doesn't apply.

thanks for clarifying this sir!:smile:

merfolks are now starting to be feared in our meta! lol! at the moment though, i seem to be the only one playing it.:laugh: people are starting to board for it now though.:eek:

[Finn]

@ Tacosnape, I have always been a big proponent of Wake Thrasher (to the point of using it in other decks even). I am considering going back to four even though I hate what that does to the mathematics of the deck. But Thrasher really hates red, especially Grim Lavamancer. And red has been getting a bit of a resurgence as this deck becomes ensconced in the metagame.

I have been thinking about including 1 copy of Minamo, School at Water's Edge or Candelabra of Tawnos as a way to make red hurt it less (and to make Thrahsers scarier). But I am wondering if there might be a better way. Basalt Monolith is a cute infinite combo with Wake Thrasher. But it sorta sucks in the deck. Has anyone found a way to use Reejerey to untap stuff a few of times as a fast effect?

[tivadar]

@The U/W Splash: How exactly does Mirror Entity not work with Wake Thrasher?

I'm wondering the same thing. One can:

Untap permanents
Put +1/+1 bonus triggers on the stack
With these on the stack, use Mirror Entity
Let +1/+1 bonus triggers resolve

Obviously, if one casts entity the same turn, this doesn't work. It does however work to vial him in in response to triggers then tap to boost immediately as well.

What's broken? Outside of having to do this during your untap phase.

[tivadar]

I've been doing some testing, and from what I've seen the whole "no mana burn" thing looks like at least a somewhat significant deal. I'd say there are plenty of times with Thrasher that over the course of game I have 5 extra mana with nothing to burn it on at the end of the opponent's turn with thrasher in play. That's 5 damage I'm not doing to myself/5 additional damage I'm doing to my opponent. I think that's far from insignificant.

[Tacosnape]

I agree with Tivadar. Wake Thrasher is an absolutely retarded threat now. Not running him is a mistake. Not running FOUR of him is a mistake. I'm not even convinced Countertop shouldn't be running him.

If you're worried about Grim Lavamancer, which is surging back now that Mogg Fanatic's basically gone from the format, maindeck Jitte or pack extra Blasts in sideboard.

[Forbiddian]

I'm wondering the same thing. One can:

Untap permanents
Put +1/+1 bonus triggers on the stack
With these on the stack, use Mirror Entity
Let +1/+1 bonus triggers resolve

Obviously, if one casts entity the same turn, this doesn't work. It does however work to vial him in in response to triggers then tap to boost immediately as well.

What's broken? Outside of having to do this during your untap phase.

Nothing goes on the stack during the untap step.

Things only go on the stack the next time active player would receive priority. Thus the wakethrasher trigger goes on the stack during the upkeep step of the turn and you can pump (or get it Lavamancered or Fanaticed).

[tivadar]

Sorry, you're correct, but it amounts to the same thing. You can use mirror entity and still get your thrasher bonus on top of it...

[tivadar]

So some thoughts about stifle:

My main gripe with this card is that it prevents you from playing aggressively the first turn. If you're on draw, then your opponent is likely to fetch before your turn if they know anything about the current meta/have played before. On play, if you have vial and stifle, you have to make a decision. Personally, I'd say choosing vial every time is the correct play. But that means you can't kill their fetch on their turn.

I agree with some of the other people that while stifle is good, there are other cards I'd rather be playing. Daze, however, is f*@#ing amazing. Currently I'm running echoing truth and threads of disloyalty rather than stifle. I've played with spell snare instead of threads, and yeah, it's good, but for mono-color, UU1 isn't hard to hit, and 2-1ing your opponent is just too good. Though those stupid mongeese still annoy me, not to mention failing at piledriver.

[sherko7]

So some thoughts about stifle:

My main gripe with this card is that it prevents you from playing aggressively the first turn. If you're on draw, then your opponent is likely to fetch before your turn if they know anything about the current meta/have played before. On play, if you have vial and stifle, you have to make a decision. Personally, I'd say choosing vial every time is the correct play. But that means you can't kill their fetch on their turn.

I agree with some of the other people that while stifle is good, there are other cards I'd rather be playing. Daze, however, is f*@#ing amazing. Currently I'm running echoing truth and threads of disloyalty rather than stifle. I've played with spell snare instead of threads, and yeah, it's good, but for mono-color, UU1 isn't hard to hit, and 2-1ing your opponent is just too good. Though those stupid mongeese still annoy me, not to mention failing at piledriver.

haven't tried main deck threads... i'm using spell snare atm. i think in a meta full of goyfs and countertop, snare ownz.:laugh:

i like wipe away better than echoing truth though, wipe away is good against counterbalance especially when you don't have a vial resolved... also good against dreadstill. but imma try running 1 echoing, 1 wipe away main.:laugh:

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Just a random question, but does anyone have a sense of what the minimum number of Islands one would need to make Vedalken Shackles good in this deck?

I know myself and Piceli have both tested it a little, with unsatisfying results... Basically the issue was it wouldn't do the number one thing I put it in there to do, namely steal opposing 'Goyfs.

I'm willing to believe that it would be a bad call to take out enough of our non-basics in order to run Shackles, but I'm just curious how many Islands y'all think one needs in order to get good use out of it.

[tivadar]

Just a random question, but does anyone have a sense of what the minimum number of Islands one would need to make Vedalken Shackles good in this deck?

I know myself and Piceli have both tested it a little, with unsatisfying results... Basically the issue was it wouldn't do the number one thing I put it in there to do, namely steal opposing 'Goyfs.

I'm willing to believe that it would be a bad call to take out enough of our non-basics in order to run Shackles, but I'm just curious how many Islands y'all think one needs in order to get good use out of it.

Hmm, here's the problem, we're clearly not going to be able to use it till 4th turn or so. By that point, Goyf is already a 4/5 most likely. I'm doing the mono-blue version, with 12 islands, and the number of times I see 4 islands in a game is pretty rare. But more importantly, the number of times I *want* to see 4 islands is even rarer. Once I hit 2-3 islands, I'd prefer to draw business cards. While you could up the island count, you're going to be thinning your threat count in doing it. Assuming 12 island, if you want to hit 4 of them you need to draw through 1/3rd of your deck, or 20 cards. By that point you're already dead.

Also, Shackles doesn't:
Nab Tombstalker (unless you're hitting 5 islands, which is even worse)
Nab Dreadnought (no chance)

[Finn]

I certainly would never bother with shackles in this deck. If the island count isnt a big enough issue, consider the other huge problems.
1 this deck does not like paying 5 mana for anything.
2 shackles at its best still sucks against the bad matchups
3 blue has other options (seasinger, control magic, and threads of disloyalty) for starters

[lorddotm]

So some thoughts about stifle:

My main gripe with this card is that it prevents you from playing aggressively the first turn. If you're on draw, then your opponent is likely to fetch before your turn if they know anything about the current meta/have played before. On play, if you have vial and stifle, you have to make a decision. Personally, I'd say choosing vial every time is the correct play. But that means you can't kill their fetch on their turn.

I agree with some of the other people that while stifle is good, there are other cards I'd rather be playing. Daze, however, is f*@#ing amazing. Currently I'm running echoing truth and threads of disloyalty rather than stifle. I've played with spell snare instead of threads, and yeah, it's good, but for mono-color, UU1 isn't hard to hit, and 2-1ing your opponent is just too good. Though those stupid mongeese still annoy me, not to mention failing at piledriver.


Stifle has been argued over many many many times, some players totally dig it, I personaly love Stifle, and other hate it. The reason I love Stifle is because i can use it not only on turn 1, but it is extremely relevant on turn 2 as well. A lot of the time, at least in my meta, most people will drop a basic first turn if possible, or drop and crack a fetch for one. Then the next turn they play their second fetch, and get into a counter war over a Stifle, and then allow me to resolve an AEther Vial. Also Stifle helps against your horrible Match-Ups, namely Goblins, and it is absolutely awesome against Eva Green, which I have found to be a pain in the ass.

Echoing Truth, in my opinion, is the nuts. Very few people play around it in game 1, and game 2, when they do play around it, they are no longer in my deck, instead (most of the time) they become Submerge which is killer against 1 Goyf at a time :).

Personally I think Spell Snare takes us into a bad controlling path. On the draw we lose tempo holding up Snare mana, and on the play, it is really not that great, Daze is far better. If you plan to play Spell Snare, I recommend having them in the board when you are on the draw to switch out with Daze.

Concerning Threads, it is soooo slow, three mana to steal their beater, only to have it bounced or some such nonsense. Rarely do I find myself wanting to steal a Goyf, and rarely am I facing down a Naught. Threads helps in match-ups we win, Thresh, Dreadstill, and such decks do not enjoy our decks anyways. Against Goblins, Zoo, or Goyf Sligh, I would rather have Mind Harness, which sits in my sideboard. Game 1 I think that Echoing Truth is much more versatile, and therefore deserves the space more than Threads does.

[tivadar]

2 shackles at its best still sucks against the bad matchups

While I haven't tested it, I'd imagine shackles is actually rather good against goblins, is it not? You can pretty much steal their board with it. Sure, it's slow, but counterspells should get you through the first few turns.

[Forbiddian]

While I haven't tested it, I'd imagine shackles is actually rather good against goblins, is it not? You can pretty much steal their board with it. Sure, it's slow, but counterspells should get you through the first few turns.

You can't force the Goblins player to trade with the stolen Goblin consistently, so no, it doesn't function like a really good Abyss. It makes attacking less profitable for the Goblins player, but the Goblins player only needs one or two Piledrivers or a Siege-Gang Commander in order to alpha strike you. They're still in good shape if you let them build up a big army.

Also, most Goblins decks run some artifact removal.



It'd be a solid drop against Goblins, certainly one of the best in the deck, but even with a Shackles out, I'd still bet pretty heavily on the Goblins player to take the game.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

So, I've been thinking a little more about Merfolk Sovereign, after my initial unimpressed reaction...

And I've come to the conclusion that he's not that bad. Granted, he's not going to be stealing slots away from Reejerey and LoA, ever. On the other hand, I personally think this deck could benefit from playing ten "tribal pumper" creatures rather than the standard eight.

I'm still not quite sure how I would make room for the two copies of him, since it's been a while since I've tested this deck actively (school, work, blargh.) This is further complicated by the issue that I'm fairly certain Wake Thrasher is going to always be at least a three-of for me once they do away with mana burn, possibly a four-of. The bright side, however, is that Sovereign's ability is actually useful with Wake Thrasher, since it negates their chump blockers (not to mention he's one more tap outlet to grow your Thrasher with.)

Anyhow, what does everyone think? Viable as a two-of? Or does he just clog up the curve on CC3 too much??

[lorddotm]

So, I've been thinking a little more about Merfolk Sovereign, after my initial unimpressed reaction...

And I've come to the conclusion that he's not that bad. Granted, he's not going to be stealing slots away from Reejerey and LoA, ever. On the other hand, I personally think this deck could benefit from playing ten "tribal pumper" creatures rather than the standard eight.

I'm still not quite sure how I would make room for the two copies of him, since it's been a while since I've tested this deck actively (school, work, blargh.) This is further complicated by the issue that I'm fairly certain Wake Thrasher is going to always be at least a three-of for me once they do away with mana burn, possibly a four-of. The bright side, however, is that Sovereign's ability is actually useful with Wake Thrasher, since it negates their chump blockers (not to mention he's one more tap outlet to grow your Thrasher with.)

Anyhow, what does everyone think? Viable as a two-of? Or does he just clog up the curve on CC3 too much??

He seems cute.

Personally I don't see how people can justify 7 3 drops, let alone the 8-10 you are suggesting. Merfolk is a deck that wants to spit out its dudes fast, then back them up with disruption.

Not my cup of tea, but I guess testing will reveal if they are playable.

On a complaining note, why do we get the crappy lord, Elves gets Lord of Titania, Goblins gets Goblin Warking, Soldiers admittedly isnt in Legacy, so no one really cares, and we are stuck with Sir Sucks-a-lot, they shouldve atleast made it give Islandwalking

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

On a complaining note, why do we get the crappy lord, Elves gets Lord of Titania, Goblins gets Goblin Warking, Soldiers admittedly isnt in Legacy, so no one really cares, and we are stuck with Sir Sucks-a-lot, they shouldve atleast made it give Islandwalking

Probably not really worth the space... I think it's really just me wanting him to be playable... :cry:

[lorddotm]

Probably not really worth the space... I think it's really just me wanting him to be playable... :cry:

Don't worry, I'm in the same boat as you, but I've been testing him, and he is soooo bad. He either slows the deck down, or is just worse than Wake Thrasher. Hell I run only 6 Three drops, and I think my list is kinda clunky. What's the rational on on 3 Wakes?

[Nessaja]

I don't play Merfolk but may i add to the discussion that against pretty much all Merfolk players I played against Merrow Reejeray's abiltiy was hardly used and if it was only for small mostly insignificant things. I'm not so sure if it's as important as everyone is claiming here.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Don't worry, I'm in the same boat as you, but I've been testing him, and he is soooo bad. He either slows the deck down, or is just worse than Wake Thrasher. Hell I run only 6 Three drops, and I think my list is kinda clunky. What's the rational on on 3 Wakes?

The rationale is that, IMO, Thrasher is the most underrated threat in this deck. And he gets better with the removal of mana burn. I've occasionally taken a couple of points of damage in mana burn just to grow Thrasher that much more; now he automatically receives as many +1's as you have lands for free, plus whatever non-land permanents you untap.

It may just be me, but I'm a fan of Thrasher. I've been running him as a three-of for a while now when I test the deck, and there are only a few match-ups where he's a terrible card.

I suppose I should mention that I've found eighteen creatures to be really the bare minimum number you can run in this deck and get away with it. In general, I tend to err on the side of a couple creatures too many, because I hate not having enough threat density in aggro decks. I've been waiting ever since the end of the Lorwyn block for just one more Merfolk card that I can add 2-4 of to this deck without having to stretch too far just to justify including a couple more warm bodies (or cool and scaly bodies, as the case may be.) Sadly, I don't think Sovereign is that Merfolk... We really need just one more bomb-ass Merf that costs either one or two mana... Unless he's utterly game-breaking. Then he can cost three.

*Cold-Eyed Selkie fans, please don't take this as your opportunity to try to get me on your little doomed bandwagon.

EDIT: @Nessaja: Not to be a complete Futurama dork here, but as far as Reejerey is concerned, it's like God tells Bender: "You have to use a light touch, like a safe-cracker. If you do it right, no one will be sure you've done anything at all." Reejerey's uses can range from subtle/unimpressive, to utterly game-breaking. All this, and his "extra ability" doesn't require that he take himself out of combat for the turn. And he requires one less blue mana, which can actually be a factor. Trust me, I can tell you without even testing Sovereign that Reejerey is going to be strictly better.

[Michael Keller]

While I haven't tested it, I'd imagine shackles is actually rather good against goblins, is it not? You can pretty much steal their board with it. Sure, it's slow, but counterspells should get you through the first few turns.

I really think people have been misguided when it comes to Merfolk. Yes, counter-magic is essential the first few turns, as is every turn thereafter.

Shackles is way too slow against Goblins when playing it in Merfolk. Even post-board, you're looking at Krosan Grip. It's just not worth the valuable slots when you've already set the tempo with Vial and Daze. Shackles isn't bad; I just think it is a little mana intensive in this archetype.

[sherko7]

has anyone tried playing grimoire thief?:laugh:

[Nekrataal]

Rejeereys ability can be invaluable at times but I myself did not advantage from it too often (not that I remember a lot of games). BUT what I find relevant is that it costs just one U. That makes him better when no Vial is present. The curve right now is perfect because you can leave Vial at 2. With another 3 drop this is becoming less certain a good choice. Apart from that the ability of the new folk is even less relevant except when paired with Thresher against Non U opponents.

Shackles just sucks. We play far too less Islands to make it matter.

Grimoire Thief has been discussed shortly here and there in the tread but always dismissed (not aggro enough, costs UU, ability to dependent on him being tapped).

[Nessaja]

EDIT: @Nessaja: Trust me, I can tell you without even testing Sovereign that Reejerey is going to be strictly better.
I did not say that, you might want to re-read, what I'm getting at is that often he's just used as a vanilla lord and Sovereign can do that as well. Not instead of - but in addition to.

[Guevera59]

. Hell I run only 6 Three drops, and I think my list is kinda clunky. What's the rational on on 3 Wakes?

This decks biggest problem, besides Gobbos, is sweepers (Firespout, EE, Clasm, WoG, Deed, etc.). That is where thrasher thrives. After the initial rush has been dealt with, you can drop a Thrasher and beat for 6+ damage. Sure Thrasher gets better with mana burn gone but I think he was good enough to play as a 3-4 of way before this change. Thrasher adds flexibility and diversifies your threats.

[tivadar]

What's the rational on on 3 Wakes?

Wakethrasher > Tarmogoyf

Lists that splash green often run gofy. Lists that splash white probably run Grunt. Lists that are mono-blue need a big beater. Thrasher fills that role. He swings through opposing fatties when you can't get a LoA to stick.

[sherko7]

sometimes i feel like trasher, if not better, is probably on par with goyf and grunt. he can grow to absurd numbers, especially with minamo lol. i don't suggest using it though, just for fun haha.:laugh:

[tivadar]

Have people considered Llawan, Cephalid Empress as a sideboard card for the mirror? Bouncing all their creatures and not letting them play any again seems hawt. I realize it's 4 mana, but still seems like it could be good.

EDIT: I'm aware vial trumps this, but still, the tempo boost could be huge.

[Plaguekeeper]

How is the new lord not good in this deck? He pumps your Thrasher(which are absurd now) and gets them in there if you either A. arent playing vs a deck with Islands in it or B. dont draw a lord of atlantis?

10-12 lords seems kinda insane.

hell, attacking with a 10/10 cursecatcher seems a bit silly if it gets to that point..


how important is Echoing truth in the main deck? isnt wipeaway better?

and stifle for that matter.. ive not been playing stifle and have won 9 out of 10 sanctioned matches in the past month..

[Bigface]

How is the new lord not good in this deck? He pumps your Thrasher(which are absurd now) and gets them in there if you either A. arent playing vs a deck with Islands in it or B. dont draw a lord of atlantis?

There are enough Lords in Merfolk, and both have more relevant abilities than this one.


how important is Echoing truth in the main deck? isnt wipeaway better?


Wipe Away doesn't save your ass from a horde of Goblin/Zombie tokens ready to attack FTW.

[Plaguekeeper]

There are enough Lords in Merfolk, and both have more relevant abilities than this one.

Ive used the Reejery's ability maybe 2 times.. most of my dudes are put into play via the aether vial which dosent trigger the Reej. Seems like the new lord would almost be better since he can make the absurdly large wake thrasher unblockable.
Maybe im wrong.. I will definatly test the new lord since I have plans of hitting the SCG $5k in Charlotte and Philly.




Wipe Away doesn't save your ass from a horde of Goblin/Zombie tokens ready to attack FTW.

point taken..

[tivadar]

My guess is he's better playing against decks without islands, worse in those that have them (where his ability is less relevant due to LoA). I'm interested primarily if he helps the Goblins matchup any.

[sauce]

My guess is he's better playing against decks without islands, worse in those that have them (where his ability is less relevant due to LoA). I'm interested primarily if he helps the Goblins matchup any.

what about propaganda?

[tyleredw]

Ive used the Reejery's ability maybe 2 times.. most of my dudes are put into play via the aether vial which dosent trigger the Reej.

How have you only used reejerey's ability two times? Post sideboard against decks with nonbasics, reejerey is the nuts. Dropping a back to basics and tapping down all their lands for them with reejerey triggers makes them enter their scoop phase. :tongue:

Not to mention, I've done some cute trickery vialing in a creature, then dropping a cursecatcher to untap the vial and throw in another for free.

Reejerey is about 800 times better than the new dude.

[Plaguekeeper]

How have you only used reejerey's ability two times? Post sideboard against decks with nonbasics, reejerey is the nuts. Dropping a back to basics and tapping down all their lands for them with reejerey triggers makes them enter their scoop phase. :tongue:

Not to mention, I've done some cute trickery vialing in a creature, then dropping a cursecatcher to untap the vial and throw in another for free.

Reejerey is about 800 times better than the new dude.



ive found that back to basics usually isnt very effective.. it usually gets countered or blasted or dosent matter.
ive actually taken it out of my sideboard and im playing in a full powered meta currently..(everyone has duals, fows,etc..)

the untapping of the vial is hotness.. its actually what ive done with my reej triggers.

Reejery may be better but can 10-12 lords really be THAT bad?

[Bigface]

Reejery may be better but can 10-12 lords really be THAT bad?

It's not like it's bad. It just isn't necessary for the deck.

The BtB question: you play counters too, meaning you can defend it from enemy's counterspells/removals. Against decks that play max. 2-3-4 basic lands (see Thresh) BtB is the nuts.

[johanessen]

ive found that back to basics usually isnt very effective.. it usually gets countered or blasted

That means it's Huge!


Btw, does anyone tryed Overtaker?

[Skeggi]

Btw, does anyone tryed Overtaker?
Yeah, I think it's tried alot. Somehow people always tend to end up at the lower tables at a tournament with it.

[tivadar]

Btw, does anyone tryed Overtaker?

2 mana for a 1/1? And his ability costs 4 mana and tapping? Can't I just run Vedalken Shackles? Oh wait, I don't want to do that either...

[sauce]

if you're going to play overtaker, take a look at Seasinger, way better for that in my opinion (w/ tidal warrior at least)

[johanessen]

if you're going to play overtaker, take a look at Seasinger, way better for that in my opinion (w/ tidal warrior at least)

Yes but the fact is, Merfolk is good because most decks in Legacy play Blue for Fow, Brainstorm, etc. Seasinger increases the chance of beating those decks, while against zoo, tarmoburn, aggroloam and so are still very hard matches (without tidal warrior), but what i want to explain is overtaker helps against those matches while seasinger not. If we play against a deck that has islands, we have LoA. If not, we still can use Overtaker hability. This is why I don't like Seasinger, it's only good in our favourables MUs

[Skeggi]

And you think that, against those decks, if Overtaker would pose any threat (at 4 mana!!), it won't get burned?

And before we go there, decks with Seasingers also end up at the lower tables.

[Maveric78f]

Yeah, BEB, mind harness and submerge are the best solutions in these MUs. Against Gob, there is no solution anyway...

[tivadar]

Yeah, BEB, mind harness and submerge are the best solutions in these MUs. Against Gob, there is no solution anyway...

SOFI? It's pseudo-creature removal, protection from burn, and goblin evasion (plus card advantage!). And it shines over jitte when they've already got a piledriver in play. Perhaps I have too much of an angel stompy background :-P Obviously the increased cost is the major down-side here.

[sauce]

mono blue merfolk is not the best vs gobs... blue white is the best though.
stp + galina's knight = gg.

[rockout]

Has anyone done testing with the new lord from M10 yet? I don't feel like reading back more than a page because I am merely trolling (at least I'm honest.) I played against a merfolk list with the extra lord and it is not better than reejerey but its still a lord that makes dudes unblockable.

[Maveric78f]

mono blue merfolk is not the best vs gobs... blue white is the best though.
stp + galina's knight = gg.

Maybe Uw is for sure better against gob but it's still so far from being good that I don't think it's relevant to talk about it ;-)

[Nelis]

Just a random thought. Moonglove Extract to get rid of Pileys?

[sauce]

Just a random thought. Moonglove Extract to get rid of Pileys?

shouldn't cards like jitte and mutavault be enough to handle the bastard?

[Skeggi]

Often they're not. But I don't think Moonglove Extract is a viable option. It's too costly and too narrow to put in your sideboard. StifleNought would be better and even that is questionable.

[Maveric78f]

Worship is you splash W. Then, good luck for killing.

[Elfrago]

Just a random thought. Moonglove Extract to get rid of Pileys?

Mmm, if memory doesn't fail me there was something called Aelopile or something like that that cost less than Mogloove Estract.

[Glorfindel]

The card is Aeolipile from Fallen Empires.
Costs :2: to cast, but :1: to activate.
In total just as much as Moonglove Extract, but spread out over two turns.

[tivadar]

Worship is you splash W. Then, good luck for killing.

Listen, I'll be the first to acknowledge that with W splash, you stand a much better chance of winning. However, playing Worship, really? Not a chance at 4 mana. If you're going to splash W, there are 3 cards I'd consider:

Blue Elemental Blast (an auto-include anyways)
Absolute Law (they can't block, they can only get through with piledriver)
Propaganda/Ghostly Prison (they can only swing once)

Personally, I'd run BEB and Absolute Law in the board. A resolved Absolute Law that stays in play for a few turns is pretty close to an auto-win against Goblins.

Anyways, with W splash, I'm guessing it's pretty easy to beat goblins if you board properly. Mono-blue, all I was wondering is if there's some way to eek out a win, and at least make the matchup 40-60 or so. Right now I assume it's muchmuch worse.

[sauce]

white splash is the best.. what do you actually lose if you splash, consistency in mana?
plus, you get to thin your deck from lands w/ fetches which makes your draws more consistent/better.
then you just sb in 4 stp and say gg.

[tivadar]

white splash is the best.. what do you actually lose if you splash, consistency in mana?
plus, you get to thin your deck from lands w/ fetches which makes your draws more consistent/better.
then you just sb in 4 stp and say gg.

You lose consistency in mana/draws, susceptibility to wasteland/stifle/other non-basic hate (in terms of disrupting your base), and you have the *problem* of fetchlands. It's fairly common belief that the damage from fetchlands outweighs the thinning they provide unless you're taking advantage of them with something like brainstorm.

Believe me, splashing has its downsides. Hence why so many of the (winning) lists are monocolored. In my opinion, the only thing splashing really gives you is the ability to beat goblins. Hence why I don't really see the green splash, and assume the white splash is the better choice.

[sherko7]

from testing, i believe monoblue merfolks have at least 50-50 matchup against most, if not all, decks that run islands.:laugh:

will be trying out tidal warrior against gobs matchup soon. i think him plus jitte would be enough against gobs... splash white of course, would mean gg for them. i still prefer monoblue though.:laugh:


also, what do you guys think about this list:

Sherfolk v2.0

4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejery
3 Wake Trasher
1 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner / Umezawa's Jitte
2 Phyrexian Dreadnought

4 Stifle
3 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Standstill
1 Wipe Away

4 Aether Vial


It's an experimental list, I know Kira and Dreadnought don't work together, but I rarely top deck them both... Also, playing StifleNought and then vialling in Kira would mean GG. Unstopable 12/12 trampler. :))

Yes I know it seems to run too much permission, haha! I find it hard to play without Spell Snare, as I am pretty unlucky at die rolls and frequently find myself on the draw g1... g2 i usually side it out anyway if i am on the play. Either way, I love Snare, and would rather cut the StifleNoughts (which I did, currently playing no stiflenought.)

[nitewolf9]

It's an experimental list, I know Kira and Dreadnought don't work together, but I rarely top deck them both...

They work fine together. You target the trigger with stifle, not the Dreadnought.

I'm wary of no Cursecatchers in this list. I thought he was sub par before, but he really is amazing in this deck.

[Skeggi]

It's an experimental list, I know Kira and Dreadnought don't work together, but I rarely top deck them both... Also, playing StifleNought and then vialling in Kira would mean GG. Unstopable 12/12 trampler. :))

I once won a 33-man tournament with a Merfolk deck with 2 Kira's and 3 Dreadnoughts in the sideboard. They're actually pretty good, and in fact work very nicely together. The problem with Dreadnoughts is that often your opponent can 2 for 1 you. Kira stops that.

[Tacosnape]

If you splash White, do you back out of the Standstill engine?

Splashing White gives you access to Swords to Plowshares and Brainstorm, as well as Seal of Cleansing and Meddling Mage in board, and if you want them, Galina's Knight and Sygg, River Guide (Don't underestimate the anti-removal ability.)

The problem with this is that your deck runs out of slots at some point. You've got a core 20 Merfolk that you run, a core 8 counters, and you're almost compelled to run Brainstorm if you're running blue and Fetchlands. This leaves you trying to squeeze Vial, Standstill, and Swords into the remaining slots maindeck. Then your board's sucked up by Relic, Mage, Jitte, Seal, and possibly Blast.

[tivadar]

If you splash White, do you back out of the Standstill engine?

Splashing White gives you access to Swords to Plowshares and Brainstorm, as well as Seal of Cleansing and Meddling Mage in board, and if you want them, Galina's Knight and Sygg, River Guide (Don't underestimate the anti-removal ability.)

The problem with this is that your deck runs out of slots at some point. You've got a core 20 Merfolk that you run, a core 8 counters, and you're almost compelled to run Brainstorm if you're running blue and Fetchlands. This leaves you trying to squeeze Vial, Standstill, and Swords into the remaining slots maindeck. Then your board's sucked up by Relic, Mage, Jitte, Seal, and possibly Blast.

Just a couple notes, with Standstill running rampant, Dispeller's Capsule is probably a better choice over seal of cleansing. 2 extra mana, sure, but hits the table a turn earlier.

Galina's Knight is still trash. As I mentioned previously, go with Rule of Law to give all your creatures protection from red. To me, the splash is primarily for the sideboard. In the main deck, you might drop echoing truth for swords to plowshares, since they serve a similar role. In addition, you may also remove standstill for brainstorm to smooth out your draws/mana. However, the card advantage from standstill is just so *huge*, I'd sooner leave brainstorm out.

What manabases do people who splash run? My thought was 2-3 Tundra, 4 Flooded Strand, 5-6 Island, 3 Mutavault, 4 Wasteland. Do you find that's enough to get you by? Do you bother running grunt mainboard?

[Piceli89]

I was wondering one thing about the new lord. Ok, she's weaker than Reejerey and Lord, and i think we all agree on this; but, after all, she's another pumping effect, which may give us incredibly resiliance against the majority of the fatties in legacy (Dreadnought excluded, ok).
The objective problem with 12-lords configuration would obviously be the redundancy in the 3-cc spot, which would slow down this deck further than how it already is; despite this, I think that the old concept of "blue goblins " with this new Merfolk could be taken back into account.
What i mean is a deck with a greater number of Merfolk , where we can exploit at the best point the boost given by Stonybrook banneret and the Merfolk ringleader (i don't remind his name now). I know it's clearly a "danger of cool things" ..danger, but it may turn out to something new and cool. The advantages would be that we could be slightly more resilient to burn (to make the Canadian Threshold-which is not-that-easy-, the Goyf Sligh, Boros, ecc matches slightly better if we manage to endure them the first turns), the obvious disadvantages are that we risk to have several costy Merfolks in the first turns in hand, and that this deck would still suck to goblins ( but that's inevitable even with a more "speedy" version, i guess).
I try to give a list as a referrement, I'm tossing it right now without any kind of testing, just to give you a vague idea of my concept:

Merfolks-28
4 LoA
4 Reejerey
4 Sovereign

2 Tidal Warrior (to fill bit the 1-cc slots)
4 Cursecatchers
4 Adepts
4 Banneret

2 Merfolk Ringleaders

(wake thrasher is hard to pull in here, unfortunately)

Spells-12
4 Aether Vial
4 Force of Will
4 Daze

Here i think the Standstills re no longer required, we tend to play more like "merfolk, merfolk, merfolk", not to stall the game. And Standstill is too many times situational, with the danger of it being a dead card when we're going to lose.

Lands-20
12 Islands
4 Mutavault
4 Mishra's Factory ( I think that we'd give up the mana denial aspect in this version, we're not Goblins who can both Disrupt AND be uber-aggro. Mishra also helps in slowing down the game a bit in the early phases, when this list would theoretically be weak).

I repeat, this is purely experimental, and of course should be tuned appropriately. But i just wanted to exploit the potential between Banneret and the many mediocre-to-good Merfolks that have colorless in their ccs, in order to give it a Goblin-esque twist. I'll test it for some time on Mws, then i'll make you know.
Of course, flamings, disappreciation and advices are welcome.

[Tacosnape]

Just a couple notes, with Standstill running rampant, Dispeller's Capsule is probably a better choice over seal of cleansing. 2 extra mana, sure, but hits the table a turn earlier.

Galina's Knight is still trash. As I mentioned previously, go with Rule of Law to give all your creatures protection from red. To me, the splash is primarily for the sideboard. In the main deck, you might drop echoing truth for swords to plowshares, since they serve a similar role. In addition, you may also remove standstill for brainstorm to smooth out your draws/mana. However, the card advantage from standstill is just so *huge*, I'd sooner leave brainstorm out.

What manabases do people who splash run? My thought was 2-3 Tundra, 4 Flooded Strand, 5-6 Island, 3 Mutavault, 4 Wasteland. Do you find that's enough to get you by? Do you bother running grunt mainboard?

1. Jotun Grunt is awful. It shouldn't be anywhere in this deck ever.
2. 2-3 Tundra and 4 Strand isn't going to be enough to hit White with any frequency.
3. You're probably right about Galina's. And I think you mean Absolute Law, not Rule of Law. And that's not a bad idea.
4. Dispeller's Capsule is intriguing. (How did I not know this card existed?) I can see where it's way better against Standstill, Snare, and sometimes Counterbalance (Comes down first, but harder to resolve if they hit Countertop) worse against everything else. One of the nicest thing about Seal is that once it's down, you can throw it for free whenever you please. But I'll definitely give this a shot.

So if Swords and Brainstorm are the main things we get from the White Splash, the 64 cards I'd -want- to run would be this:

3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Island
3 Wasteland
3 Mutavault

4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Wake Thrasher

4 Brainstorm
4 Aether Vial
4 Standstill
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Daze

Given that this list is 64 cards and what I would argue are the best 64 you can run in this splash, how do you cut this down to 60? My thoughts are either to syphon 1-of's from random places (1 land, 1 Daze, 1 Standstill, 1 Merfolk), compensated for by Brainstorm, or to just stick the swords in sideboard with a board of, say, 4 Mage, 4 Swords, 4 Seal/Capsule, 3 Relic.

[F3lix]

If you splash White, do you back out of the Standstill engine?

Splashing White gives you access to Swords to Plowshares and Brainstorm, as well as Seal of Cleansing and Meddling Mage in board, and if you want them, Galina's Knight and Sygg, River Guide (Don't underestimate the anti-removal ability.)

The problem with this is that your deck runs out of slots at some point. You've got a core 20 Merfolk that you run, a core 8 counters, and you're almost compelled to run Brainstorm if you're running blue and Fetchlands. This leaves you trying to squeeze Vial, Standstill, and Swords into the remaining slots maindeck. Then your board's sucked up by Relic, Mage, Jitte, Seal, and possibly Blast.

While there's a lot of people splashing for white, I don't think this deck would ever play brainstorm because, as you said, there is little room to squeeze the 'non-core' cards. And Vial and Standstill should not be squeezed in, they are staples. Back to brainstorm, what would you take out for it? Draw is usually good enough with the adepts and standstills. Merfolk likes to tap out, and the deck is pretty redundant, and there is little need to search for specific cards compared to the more traditional control decks that can better abuse brainstorm.

Merfolks plan is to put dorks on the table, turn them sideways, all while countering any spells that hinders that plan and playing mana denial spells to keep your opponent behind. While brainstorm helps find cards that do this, it still doesn't fulfill these qualifications, which I think everyone should keep in mind when adding cards to this deck.

As for the argument for white, I will echo what Tivadar said. We only play 19-20 land sources including a set of wastelands, and even just one wasteland or stifle from out opponent can really hurt us, especially without a vial on the table. And with fetches, if we thin out the deck to get a dual or whatever, and that land get destroyed, they effectively took 2 lands out of our deck, minimizing out chances of drawing a replacement. Besides a well timed bounce spell is usually just as good if not better than a stp, as the threat gets removed and there is no lifegain, and we don't like to see opponents gain life. The longer the game goes on, the weaker our disruption gets. Plus, it's great having a deck that can abuse back to basics.

[tivadar]

1. Jotun Grunt is awful. It shouldn't be anywhere in this deck ever.

I'd agree. He's used as a fattie, but Wake Thrasher is just better. Hence me asking if anyone even bothered to play him main. Honestly, if I splashed green, I'd run Thrasher sooner than Goyf.


2. 2-3 Tundra and 4 Strand isn't going to be enough to hit White with any frequency.

If they ever give us fetches under a different name, I think I'd run 8 fetch, 2 plains. One of the main advantages of this deck is its ability to ignore wasteland. Given the current availaibility, I think I'd be more prone to do 7 fetches, 3 tundras. But yeah, that's still pretty close.


3. You're probably right about Galina's. And I think you mean Absolute Law, not Rule of Law. And that's not a bad idea.

Sorry, nods, stupid wizards naming cards similar with similar effects (both against red). Absolute law > Goblins/Burn/Lavamancer/... You get the point, it's just *so* relevant.


4. Dispeller's Capsule is intriguing. (How did I not know this card existed?) I can see where it's way better against Standstill, Snare, and sometimes Counterbalance (Comes down first, but harder to resolve if they hit Countertop) worse against everything else. One of the nicest thing about Seal is that once it's down, you can throw it for free whenever you please. I'll definitely give this a shot.

I noticed the card primarily because it's also an artifact, making it a relevant Trinket Mage target for the UW Angel Stompy deck I used to play. But yeah, I think it highly depends on your meta which you choose.

So if Swords and Brainstorm are the main things we get from the White Splash, the 64 cards I'd -want- to run would be this:



3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Island
3 Wasteland
3 Mutavault

4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Wake Thrasher

4 Brainstorm
4 Aether Vial
4 Standstill
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Daze

Given that this list is 64 cards and what I would argue are the best 64 you can run in this splash, how do you cut this down to 60?

-4 Brainstorm *or* -4 Standstill. They both serve in the card advantage/quality role. I would say you drop Brainstorm. While it's good, your deck should generally have consistent drops anyways.

I notice you're dropping Stifle as well. I sorta agree with this, and you've added a land, an STP and a Daze I believe. Once could also try -1 BS, -1 Standstill, -1 STP, -1 Daze. Then you could also swap in Stifle for BS if you so desired.

[Tacosnape]

You're arguing against Brainstorm in a 2-color blue deck with fetchlands and several situationally good cards? Seriously?

Brainstorm is good to hide Standstill if it isn't safe to drop it, or to dig for it if you need to play it. Brainstorm will hide that Aether Vial you managed to topdeck on turn four. Brainstorm will dig for Wasteland if you need it, or hide it if it won't hurt your opponent. Brainstorm can dig for Forces.

Also, for the curve, Brainstorm's your best 1-drop if you don't have a Vial or a Cursecatcher and aren't maindecking Relic, where the better between Relic/Brainstorm depends on the matchup. If you -do- have one of these these and your manabase is okay, you'll most likely play Brainstorm around turn four or so, to keep your Merfolk wave from stalling out.

Additionally, after you board? Brainstorm digs for your answers. More chances to hit the Relics, Swords, artifacts/enchantment removers, Mages, Jittes, or whatever the case may be.

[F3lix]

So if Swords and Brainstorm are the main things we get from the White Splash, the 64 cards I'd -want- to run would be this:

3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Island
3 Wasteland
3 Mutavault

4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Wake Thrasher

4 Brainstorm
4 Aether Vial
4 Standstill
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Daze

Given that this list is 64 cards and what I would argue are the best 64 you can run in this splash, how do you cut this down to 60? My thoughts are either to syphon 1-of's from random places (1 land, 1 Daze, 1 Standstill, 1 Merfolk), compensated for by Brainstorm, or to just stick the swords in sideboard with a board of, say, 4 Mage, 4 Swords, 4 Seal/Capsule, 3 Relic.

While this list looks cool on paper, you must ask yourself, what are you really gaining? Game 1 this list will lose to the mirror, is weaker against blue based control, which is one great reason to play it. I guess it might be better against random aggro, but couldn't jitte have the almost the same effect? Don't get me wrong, white adds some great stuff, but how does this affect your matchups?

[tivadar]

Yes, yes I was arguing against that :-P. Though you're probably right. Perhaps 2c Merfolk shouldn't be running Standstill? No matter what, I think 4 Silvergill + 4 Brainstorm + 4 Standstill is way too heavy of a draw engine. You'll be too busy trying to draw you won't be able to actually win :).

I think the only thing I will say here is that you can drop at most 2 creatures (-1 Silvergill and -1 Thrasher), and at most 1 counter (-1 Daze). To me, I'd sooner drop the brainstorm and to keep standstill. But maybe you could play a bit with that:

-1 Swords To Plowshares
-1 Brainstorm (Assuming 3 is good by you)
-1 Silvergill Adept
-1 Daze/Standstill

[tivadar]

While this list looks cool on paper, you must ask yourself, what are you really gaining? Game 1 this list will lose to the mirror, is weaker against blue based control, which is one great reason to play it. I guess it might be better against random aggro, but couldn't jitte have the almost the same effect? Don't get me wrong, white adds some great stuff, but how does this affect your matchups?

I stand by what I said before, the only *real* reason to splash in Merfolk is the sideboard answers. Splashing white (with Absolute Law and BleB in the board) makes the goblin match winnable (especially goblins without green). Mainboard, you're right, your deck is heavily weakened.

[F3lix]

I stand by what I said before, the only *real* reason to splash in Merfolk is the sideboard answers. Splashing white (with Absolute Law and BleB in the board) makes the goblin match winnable (especially goblins without green). Mainboard, you're right, your deck is heavily weakened.

I must admit, Rule of Law is sooo tempting.

[sherko7]

Jitte mainboard would be a pain, at least for me. I played it main last tourney, and in most matchups it wasn't actually relevant. Jitte boarding in for Gobs would be GG though.:laugh:

I still don't find playing Brainstorm in this deck useful. I'd rather play Spell Snare in that spot, or more Merfolks.:laugh:

[whosyourdaddy]

I still don't find playing Brainstorm in this deck useful. I'd rather play Spell Snare in that spot, or more Merfolks.:laugh:

Hmmmm, I can't think of any 1cc merfolks that would be worth playing in this deck. I'd much rather play brainstorm. It helps you drop lords with a greater consistency. Go try it. It really works.


@White splash: It feels so much better having some real MD removal. I'm pretty sure It's the right way to go.
Oh, and MD Grunt has been working pretty amazing too. I hope there's some real testing expeariance behind someone's saying 'grunt is awful' ;) I mean, so many Merfolk players have agreed on Relic being worth MD slots. Now look, there's a white card that can do relic's job done against some grave based strategies and just happens to beat for 4. How can that be bad??

[Tacosnape]

First off, to clarify, I'm only arguing in favor of Brainstorm if you're splashing and therefore already running the fetchlands.

Second, Grunt is terrible. I assure you I've played with it since it came out in various decks. In every deck in existence except -maybe- Red/White Sligh. I've played with it since it came out and had to learn why.

1. It's graveyard hate that can be countered by creature removal, which almost everybody in existence runs.

2. It's bad graveyard hate. Survival will get Squee and Genesis back out, and Ichorid can sometimes just overwhelm it.

3. Worst of all, it's a bad threat. It requires there be thirty cards in graveyards (31 if they're split 15-15) to go the distance by himself, assuming your opponent never has a chump blocker. Almost any other threat in Legacy will go the distance by itself if your opponent doesn't get removal and can't block it. Jotun Grunt doesn't.

You know how cards like Browbeat and Lava Blister are bad because they give the opponent a choice? Jotun Grunt's bad for the same reason. He essentially has the ability "Sacrifice a creature or pay 4 life for every two cards in a single graveyard: Destroy Jotun Grunt. Only an opponent may play this ability." This gives your opponent the option of doing this or spending a removal spell on him, whichever's most convenient for him.

4. Jotun Grunt, ironically, dies to the card it's replacing, Relic of Progenitus.

[tivadar]

Fair enough. What are the white cards to splash for then?

My thoughts are as follows, in ranked order:
1. Absolute Law: An Absolute (pun intended) amazing card against our worst machups, goyf sligh and goblins.
2. Swords to Plowshares: We need creature removal, it does the trick. The only card to be mainboarded.
3. Ethersworn Canonist: He houses combo. Not only that, we can vial him into play and protect him with counters.

To me, those are the three main reasons. We *can* add enchantment/artifact removal in with that, but I'm not even sure I would, with bounce options and counterspells.

[whosyourdaddy]

First off, to clarify, I'm only arguing in favor of Brainstorm if you're splashing and therefore already running the fetchlands.

Second, Grunt is terrible. I assure you I've played with it since it came out in various decks. In every deck in existence except -maybe- Red/White Sligh. I've played with it since it came out and had to learn why.

1. It's graveyard hate that can be countered by creature removal, which almost everybody in existence runs.

2. It's bad graveyard hate. Survival will get Squee and Genesis back out, and Ichorid can sometimes just overwhelm it.

3. Worst of all, it's a bad threat. It requires there be thirty cards in graveyards (31 if they're split 15-15) to go the distance by himself, assuming your opponent never has a chump blocker. Almost any other threat in Legacy will go the distance by itself if your opponent doesn't get removal and can't block it. Jotun Grunt doesn't.

You know how cards like Browbeat and Lava Blister are bad because they give the opponent a choice? Jotun Grunt's bad for the same reason. He essentially has the ability "Sacrifice a creature or pay 4 life for every two cards in a single graveyard: Destroy Jotun Grunt. Only an opponent may play this ability." This gives your opponent the option of doing this or spending a removal spell on him, whichever's most convenient for him.

4. Jotun Grunt, ironically, dies to the card it's replacing, Relic of Progenitus.

1. Who wants to kill your grunt(that's gonna die by itself anyway) and then be run over by your lords?? Hmmmm.... noone? Maybe Ichorid, but wait, they don't run removal! 0.o

2.Ok, you've got the point there, I admit. My point is that I hate MD grave hate(unless it's fat and aggresive) so it's better to have this one than none. Btw it's grave hate that doesn't suck agains zoo, goblins etc...

Also, note that you don't need to remowe Ichorid's entire grave, just specific cards. Grunt is only good agains them if lands early(otherwise it won't help), but when it does.... well it's like never ending selective grave removal(often better than single relic). Dredge still hates it;)

3. Killing your opponent with one creature? Just play dreadstill. That's not the strategy here. I don't get that point. What I get is that Grunt is 4/4 for 2 mana = fucking beast, even if it stays only for three turns. Are you trying to say that hill giant is better bacause it can kill your opponent on its own?? Wow!

4. Whoever packs grave hate against Jotun Grunt only, put your hand up! That's not the case here, sorry.


After all, I'm not saying I'm 100% right, I get some of your points on this issue. What I'm saying is that Grunt is working amazing for me so far, but I guess I need to test it a little more(sorry, won't believe you untill i don't find out myself)

[Finn]

Taco, we have discussed the white splash many, many times. I am just going to ask you the single biggest salient question: If you are splashing for white (with all the benefits and frailties that includes) why are you playing these crappy creatures?

No matter how hard we try, this deck is never going to be as good against nonblue decks as Tarmo.dec. It won't even be decent. The only reason this deck places is because the opponents are showing up in droves with

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
48 other cards

You can get lucky and not get hammered by the inconsistencies that come with a splash some of the time. But you will eventually begin losing too many games from color screw, mirror matches, and whatever else. You will have moved towards the decks this one is designed to beat. So why not play their creatures and reap the full benefits of splashing?

Yes, I am saying their is no middle ground. Because there are too many no-brainer inclusions once you splash, as you well know. It doesn't leave room for the rest of the deck.

[Tacosnape]

3. Killing your opponent with one creature? Just play dreadstill. That's not the strategy here. I don't get that point. What I get is that Grunt is 4/4 for 2 mana = fucking beast, even if it stays only for three turns. Are you trying to say that hill giant is better bacause it can kill your opponent on its own?? Wow!


1. It doesn't matter if it's your strategy or not. If you have four threats and your opponent can remove three of them, if you're not running Jotun Grunt, you've got a threat they can't deal with. If you have four threats and your opponent can remove three of them and you -are- running Jotun Grunt, your opponent has successfully dealt with all of your threats and survived.

In a vacuum, while Jotun Grunt is probably better than Hill Giant just because it at least does -something- against graveyards, there are a lot of matchups in the DTB Forum where I'd rather be playing Hill Giant, including Landstill and the Merfolk mirror.

The point, however, is not to compare Jotun Grunt to the worst possible cards, it's to compare it to the best. And Jotun Grunt right now doesn't make the top 5 in graveyard hate or in threats. It's bad at being both, and therefore doesn't belong.




4. Whoever packs grave hate against Jotun Grunt only, put your hand up! That's not the case here, sorry.

Nobody -packs- hate against Grunt. But like it or not, versions of Merfolk, Goblins, Landstill, and things packing Trinket Mage all maindeck Relic of Progenitus. Relic's hot right now.


Taco, we have discussed the white splash many, many times. I am just going to ask you the single biggest salient question: If you are splashing for white (with all the benefits and frailties that includes) why are you playing these crappy creatures?

This is sort of what I've been pondering for days now.

The short answer is that if Merfolk are so crappy, how come they keep placing well in large tournaments? And if the answer in its entirety is "Because it doesn't run fetchlands and is immune to Wasteland," then no, you shouldn't splash.

While I don't argue this point, I think it's just a small piece of why this deck functions so well in the current metagame. Here are my reasons why I think Merfolk is thriving at the moment.

1. The deck has a good chance of having superiorty under a Standstill against almost anything. It runs 6-8 business lands (Wastes, Vaults), and four Aether Vials, meaning it can play with the best. It can't play Standstill against Ichorid, rarely can if Goblins also has a Vial down, and can't against Landstill if they've got a Planeswalker down, but beyond that? Standstill is golden.

2. The deck massacres blue. Islandwalk and Aether Vial aren't things blue wants to see.

3. The deck packs 8 free spells, meaning it can tap out all its lands with no fear whatsoever.

4. The deck is very strong against the Stifle/Wasteland mana denial package.

5. The deck is tricky to hate out. Pyroclasm, Red Elemental Blast, and Plague are all a pain, but beyond that? Graveyard hate doesn't touch it. Nonbasic hate is weak against it. Artifact and Enchantment hate don't do much to it. Combo hate certainly doesn't touch it. Etc.

Splashing white has no effect on #2 or #3, and has no effect on #1 unless you cut business lands or Standstills. It only affects #5 as far as the nonbasic hate goes. It has a huge effect on #4, effectively making the statement a lie.

In exchange for this, you get the following:

1. The ability to deal with creatures you couldn't deal with otherwise. Swords to Plowshares is a godsend. Phyrexian Dreadnought, Wild Nacatl, Dark Confidant, etc.

2. The ability to remove artifacts and enchantments from the board.

3. The ability to have an even better combo matchup.

4. The ability to deal with lots of red burn, if you want to spend the cards on it. I think Absolute Law's a weak idea, as Qasali Pridemage just laughs at it.

Now, I'm not making the argument that the splash is worth it. I'm actually currently -not- splashing. However, I disagree that there's not an in between ground.

[tivadar]

Well put Taco. As for grunt, my thoughts are basically the same on him. I don't think he deserves any spots in the mainboard when you splash, and even in the sideboard, I'm not certain there. Sure, he's good against graveyard.dec, but my *main* issue with him is he's not instant graveyard removal. You have to wait a turn before he removes anything. Granted, he swings like the dickens, but if you really need a card out of an opponent's graveyard immediately, he doesn't do it for you (minus through vial).

As for your assessment of advantages/disadvantages, I completely agree. The main advantages of this deck are non-basic hate immunity, card advantage through standstill, and huge tempo advantages. I'd go so far as to say that now, especially with fanatic out, we come close to outracing goblins.

I guess that's why I like Absolute law. It's certainly relevant against goyf sligh, though you're right, pridemage hits it (though at a 1-1 2 mana to 3 mana cost), but it means you win against goblins. Actually, I should probably *actually* do more testing of that statement, but the impression that I get is that the strategy should work. Will get back once I've tested.

[Tacosnape]

I guess that's why I like Absolute law. It's certainly relevant against goyf sligh, though you're right, pridemage hits it (though at a 1-1 2 mana to 3 mana cost), but it means you win against goblins. Actually, I should probably *actually* do more testing of that statement, but the impression that I get is that the strategy should work. Will get back once I've tested.

You'll usually win against Goblins due to your guys being unblockable. However, if you're threat light, it's not unfathomable that if you give them five turns beyond Absolute Law, they'll overwhelm you anyway.

Against Zoo you're looking at dealing with Pridemage and Krosan Grip both. Law will help if they don't get those down, but I kind of view the Zoo matchup the same way I view the Storm Combo matchup with Goblins. I don't think I can ever do enough to improve the matchup and would therefore just rather hope I don't run into it.

If I were going to pick a card to help here, though, I'd probably pick Misdirection, just so I could keep tapping out and make them burn their own Nacatls and Lavamancers.

[scrumdogg]

You'll usually win against Goblins due to your guys being unblockable. However, if you're threat light, it's not unfathomable that if you give them five turns beyond Absolute Law, they'll overwhelm you anyway.

Against Zoo you're looking at dealing with Pridemage and Krosan Grip both. Law will help if they don't get those down, but I kind of view the Zoo matchup the same way I view the Storm Combo matchup with Goblins. I don't think I can ever do enough to improve the matchup and would therefore just rather hope I don't run into it.

If I were going to pick a card to help here, though, I'd probably pick Misdirection, just so I could keep tapping out and make them burn their own Nacatls and Lavamancers.

I'm not understanding how Merfolk are unblockable versus Goblins. Can someone explain what I missed? I don't believe that Absolute Law is a bad card, but why wouldn't we run Burrenton Forge-Tender in it's place? The ability to attack (or block), pick up Jitte, and benefit from Vial all seem relevant. Also, any deck where they would be good probably aren't running lots of non-red removal. Since I expect to see more Pridemage or Grip (or Pridemage AND Grip...) from decks than lots of red and non-red removal, BFT seems like an option.

[whienot]

Absolute Law makes them unblockable vs. Goblins. Forge-tender doesn't let you hold back blockers while swinging with Thrasher.

Forge-tender is a good choice though, just probably not against Goblins. It's better when fighting Firespout.

[Finn]

Taco, my single biggest complaint against a splash is its effect on consistency. But that is not the only problem I have with it. Every time you introduce a must have spell like brainstorm or stp you have to remove something. Every time you pull a merfolk out, lord of atlantis gets a little worse. And reejerey. And silvergill.

And then there is the question of what noncreature spells to pull. That arena is even more of a mess. This is the issue with tribal decks. Blue creatures dont do spot removal, so you just have to do without. (Just as Goblins dont disrupt combo.) It just seems impossible.

[Tacosnape]

Taco, my single biggest complaint against a splash is its effect on consistency. But that is not the only problem I have with it. Every time you introduce a must have spell like brainstorm or stp you have to remove something. Every time you pull a merfolk out, lord of atlantis gets a little worse. And reejerey. And silvergill.

...

Arguing that Brainstorm reduces consistency is like arguing that adding milk to mashed potatoes makes them less creamy. Anyone who's ever made mashed potatoes will read it, have a slight pause, and then go "Wait a minute. That's not right."

You're going to hit a Merfolk very close to just as often if you cut 1 and run 4 Brainstorms. I'm not positive of the exact math here and you probably can't calculate it exactly given that sometimes the Brainstorms will get countered, but I'm willing to make the bet you hit nonspecific Merfolk more often running 19 and 4 Brainstorms than 20 and 0. I'm not positive about 18 and 4 Brainstorms versus 20, but I'm willing to bet it's incredibly close.

If you're splashing, run 20 land, 20 merfolk, 4 Vial, 4 Standstill, 4 Force, 4 Daze, and 4 Brainstorm. Put your splash cards in the board. Be it Krosan Grip in green, STP/Law/Whatever in White, Snuff Out in Black, or whatever.

[_erbs_]

Hello,
As s merfolk players aswell here are my thoughts...

I. Why is Merfolk.dec doing well during tourny?
1. It's because 50-60% of the current meta in all countries (guessing) uses island (blue) in their decks (island walk & vial). thus making it very strong.

a. If its strong against blue why are playing still using blue (guessing in a practically). If you spent time and money to get the blue / land cards you wanted surely you would still use it eventhough a deck thats strong against blue is running rampant. Alot of people now have dual lands compared to before.

b. Tarmogoyf is a very very good win condition if your using blue and with that alot of players will still use blue. thus alot of players will run 2-4 colored decks thus making the landy package of merfolk + back to basics more potent.

c. If the current is forced to change (which i doubt it) now maybe we could see a decline in performance of the merfolk. Like during the times in where goblins are running wild and the meta was having a hard time dealing with it. To help battle it AngelStompy was developed to stop its rampage.

2. It has good resillence against the current and most used meta disruption which is landy (wasteland, stifles, etc.)

3. The deck is very easy to play seldom that a merfolk player would make mistakes. Its just a cast tap attack and counter a board clearing effect.

4. The deck is very easy to build thus you will have the key parts of the deck compared to other decks which would sometimes lack due to different reasons (budget, card availability, etc.)

II. Is splashing a color worth it or not?
1. There will be tons and tons of debates about it but for me it boils down to the player on how he wants his/her merfolk deck to run. Every color will give you something and you would also give up something for it.

a. Why do a player consider in splashing a color
- Having difficulties in several matchups
- Wants more out of the deck (danger of cool things)
- He/she feels running mono isn't as good compared to the splash.

b. The white splash (in my exprience)
- Gives you good tons of good SB card choice depending on your meta and one of the best creature removal in legacy STP (canonist, absolute law, c.o.p's, orim's chant, disenchant, mirror entity, etc.)

c. The green splash (in my exprience)
- Gives you tarmogoyf and krosan grip

d. Red/Black splash i haven't tried because i don't own any fetch and duals to run it. But im sure there are tons of cool things that would come out of those splashes aswell. (magus of the moon, reb, pryrokenesis, bolt, etc.) // (duress, thoughtseize, dark confidant, doom blade, etc)

I've tried running a tarmofolk and a u/w merfolk, they have their advantages but i still ended up with mono blue. But that's just me....

III. Standstill, brainstorm....
1. If your running dual to tri color brainstorm + ponder is the way to go because you will need the library manipulation to get the mana or tools you've added in the 1st place thats why you splashed a color.

Standstill vs Brainstorm / Ponder are different things.. obviously again it will depend on what you need and what a player wants to have.

In my mono merfolk deck i don't use standstill i use ponder because i prefer the library manipulation + shuffle effect over draw of standstill or the instant speed of brainstorm.

[Skeggi]

I'm pretty sure splashing another color or playing Brainstorms are all mistakes. Merfolk is supposed to explode in your opponent's face. Brainstorming =/= exploding; it often takes away another turn. In fact; Merfolk wants to tap out and use all its resources to kill quick.

Last Sunday, I ended up first in a 39 player tournament. The list was the following:



4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Cursecatcher
3 Wake Thrasher
2 Sower of Temptation

4 Aether Vial

4 Force of Will
4 Daze

4 Standstill
2 Back to Basics

4 Mutavault
4 Wasteland
13 Island

Sideboard:


3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Pithing Needle
2 Extract
3 Annul
2 Threads of Disloyalty
2 Submerge
1 Back to Basics


The match-ups I had in the Swiss were: UGr Thresh (lost, 1-2), BYE, Dragon Stompy (won, 2-1), Merfolk (won, 2-0), Dragon Stompy (won, 2-0), Landstill (lost!?, 1-2).

I ended up 7th after the Swiss and in the top8 my match-ups were: Ugr Thresh (same guy as round 1, 2-1), ANT (2-0), Dragon Stompy (same guy as round 3, 2-1).

I expected a meta with alot of decks like Zoo, The Rock, ANT, Merfolk and Landstill. I was correct about the meta, but instead of Zoo and The Rock I got paired against 2 of the 3 Dragon Stompy decks (they were doing pretty well because there were 8 ANT lists roaming around). Thanks, DCI Reporter :wink:. Dragon Stompy can be pretty nasty, but if you can resolve an Aether Vial, you should be OK.

Back to Basics can be extremely awesome. Except in my match-ups, because the only one where it really mattered was Landstill, and it was able to fetch to enough basics and kill with Elspeth. Dragon Stompy wasn't bothered by my Back to Basics, because they tend to have enough mountains, or have their threats on the table before I land B2B. I wouldn't write it off though; it can be very powerful against different Thresh builds and Zoo, and especially the latter is a difficult match-up.

I have mixed feelings about the Annuls. Yes, one time it litteraly won me the game when a Dragon Stompy player was on the draw and he tried to play a Chrome Mox, which I countered with Annul, leaving him with no red mana. But in general I don't like keeping a mana open. That's why I dropped Stifle, and that's why I'm rethinking Annul.

I've lost to Landstill because the player read my sideboard-plans perfectly. He knew I got rid of B2B game 3 because it wasn't doing me any good. He also had alot of removal in the form of Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile, Wrath of God and Engineered Explosives. Plus I made the mistake of not siding out the Dazes, which are usually pretty useless against Landstill.

In general I'm very happy with the deck. I really wouldn't do anything stupid with it, like adding Brainstorms or Fetches. Or splash another color. Because you have to think what you can get out of white: anti-combo tech and creature removal. We have that already in blue. We have counters and we'd rather steal the creatures than remove them. What use is green? Tarmogoyf? We already have Wake Thrasher. Krosan Grip? Running Annuls is better than screwing your manabase. Red? I see no sense in running red. Black for Thoughtseize? It's nice to know what your opponent is playing, but certainly this isn't worth the splash to screw your manabase again.

Point of the matter about splashes is: next to the fact that they aren't useful; it negates your opportunity to run Back to Basics.

[Nekrataal]

Still playing the Ugw version and experiencing none of the drawbacks that are posted here in practise. I never had any mana problems, thanks to Vial! Goyf comes into play via Vial more often then via Tropical. So I am used to fetch Tundras first for Swords except I have boarded Grips. LD or Denial usually does not hit hard because you can fetch smart (right timing plus fetching basics) and do not rely too hard on having w or g available. You can still go beats with your folks.:tongue:

[tivadar]

I just wanted to address "lowering the threat count thanks to STP + BS".

Brainstorm: Replaces Stifle at the same mana cost. The difference between the two being that Stifle is sometimes only good in the early game, but it's explosive there, and Brainstorm tends to be good no matter when you draw it. No threat count lowering.

STP: Essentially replaces Echoing Truth, which served primarily to remove blockers, though doubled to remove massive amounts of tokens as well. At the second, STP is ineffective. At the first, it's much better. Once again, no threat count lowering.

Brainstorm *does* slow your explosiveness a bit, but is also awesome in the lategame. STP, minus the lifegain, essentially increases your explosiveness as compared to echoing truth.

Also, when I'm splashing, I tend to make room in the deck for 3x *other*, where other could be echoing or stifle. This can be easily done with -1 BS, -1 STP -1 Daze/Silvergill. All these configurations still run 4x Standstill, which in my opinion is just too good to remove.

The one major thing splashing does is increase your nonbasic hate susceptibility. This can be a problem if your opponent is both running nonbasic hate and you can't get a vial online due to either artifact hate or bad draws. Fortunately, BS smooths out the second a bit. Let's face it, without vial, while splashing, through hate, the UU required for Lord is hard to hit.

[Finn]

I'm pretty sure splashing another color or playing Brainstorms are all mistakes. Merfolk is supposed to explode in your opponent's face. Brainstorming =/= exploding; it often takes away another turn. In fact; Merfolk wants to tap out and use all its resources to kill quick.Yes, you have the idea.

@Taco, of course I am not saying that adding Brainstorm makes the deck less consistent. I am saying that adding another color makes the deck less consistently have the best possible start.

Unlike Threshold, Merfolk has to start disrupting on turn 1. And it has to continue to land threats in rapid succession after that rather than protecting the ones it has. The biggest problem I have with that plan is the mana spent on the spell. I was ready to go into a diatribe on this topic, but instead I would take it to its natural conclusion of also adding Ponder. The deck might look like this:

(19)
1 Island
4 Tundra
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland
2 Mutavault

(25)
3 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Standstill
3 Stifle
4 Aether Vial

(16)
4 Lord of Atlantis
3 Merrow Reejerey
4 Cursecatcher
3 Silvergill Adept
2 Wakethrasher

I cut 3 creatures, 1 land, and 3 defensive spells to make room for 7 search cards. You will get to see about a bajillion cards. But it will also be a bit slower. And the sb options will be nifty also.

I have to admit that I like the way it looks more than I thought I would. I just avoided cutting the cards that affect the first couple of turns (except for a single Stifle). But it also plays no removal of any sort. I do think that Standstill is a bit less effective though. Since you have to topdeck important cards while it is out, and I have cut an important land.

[tivadar]

You do realize you have 8 fetches with 5 lands to fetch with them... Not a good idea. You also only have 1 basic island, should that be relevant (dragonstompy!).

The fact is this deck never requires double white, so having 12 ways to get single white seems excessive to me. I might do the following:

3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
3 Island
4 Wasteland
2 Mutavault

I might even drop 4 Tundra to 3 and run 4 basic Islands. Either way, I've found 6 fetch to 8 lands to be the correct ratio in most decks I've used.

EDIT: I'd also definitely consider STP maindeck. Why ponder? Wouldn't you rather have access to STP? You still should be drawing enough threats.

[Tacosnape]

@Skeggi: Extract in sideboard? Very interesting. What's your argument for this?

[Finn]

Well, whatever, Tivadar. I don't like having only 10 white sources. But these are the sorts of problems we would be incurring if we go this route.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Cursecatcher
3 Wake Thrasher
2 Sower of Temptation

4 Aether Vial

4 Force of Will
4 Daze

4 Standstill
2 Back to Basics

4 Mutavault
4 Wasteland
13 Island

Sideboard:


3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Pithing Needle
2 Extract
3 Annul
2 Threads of Disloyalty
2 Submerge
1 Back to Basics



In general I'm very happy with the deck. I really wouldn't do anything stupid with it, like adding Brainstorms or Fetches. Or splash another color. Because you have to think what you can get out of white: anti-combo tech and creature removal. We have that already in blue. We have counters and we'd rather steal the creatures than remove them. What use is green? Tarmogoyf? We already have Wake Thrasher. Krosan Grip? Running Annuls is better than screwing your manabase. Red? I see no sense in running red. Black for Thoughtseize? It's nice to know what your opponent is playing, but certainly this isn't worth the splash to screw your manabase again.

Point of the matter about splashes is: next to the fact that they aren't useful; it negates your opportunity to run Back to Basics.

Interesting list, Skeggster. In my opinion, main-decking Back to Basics is one of the more interesting trends with the deck that I've spotted recently on the interwebs, and two seems like it would be the correct number to main-deck in order to go this route.

I have a couple questions:

1.) I, like Tacosnape, am a little curious over the Extracts in the sideboard: Which match-ups did you put those in for specifically? Did you end up using them to good effect during the tournament? I can see some of the potential uses: taking away a copy of Tendrils from Storm, taking a 'Goyf from CounterTop/Baseruption/Thresh/Whatever-the-fuck-people-call-it-these-days, taking away a Pernicious Deed or Explosives, etc... Not to mention that it's a nice little bonus that you can scope out your opponent's sideboard plan against you and make some sort of plans to deal with their bombs.

On the other hand, it's a strictly one-for-one trade, and it's not even guaranteed to produce an effective trade: you only remove one card, and what's worse, your opponent may never end up getting to the point in their deck where they would have drawn the card that you removed. Compare Extract to Extirpate for a second, even though Extirpate is off-color and obviously not worth splashing for in this deck.

My philosophy with this deck is to try to focus on having effective plays for the whole of the game's opening, limiting my opponent's tempo while trying to establish board presence, so that by the time I get to the mid-game, I'm in a position to try to close as soon as possible. Extract doesn't really fit in line with this philosophy: hypothetically, let's say you play it on your third turn: you're removing one card which your opponent basically had a 1/50 chance of drawing next turn (excluding deck manipulation, which is obviously a factor.) Not only have you done something that's not guaranteed to be a productive play, you have to expend the resources of one card and one mana to do it.

Just playing devil's advocate here, but I would be tempted to nix Extract, since it eats your early game tempo and it seems a little like a waste of sideboard slots, but I'm curious how it worked out for you. Please, tell us more about this one.

2.) Sower of Temptation: How did it work out? Were you able to get up to four lands and/or four counters on Vial often enough to get it out? Were you glad you main-decked it? Did she swing any games in your favor? I would absolutely *love* to hear on authority that Sower is a viable option for this deck.

3.) Back to Basics in the main-deck: I definitely see why this is good. On the other hand, did running four Mutavaults ever get in the way of Back to Basics? Did you ever find B2B just sitting dead in your hand in Game One? (Because obviously it just doesn't work that well in some match-ups...) I <33 Back to Basics, but I would worry about packing four Mutavaults in a build where I ran it in the main-deck.

4.) Submerge: I've heard the arguments for it, and the ones against it. It seems a little limited to me honestly, but as someone who's played successfully using it, I'd like to hear your opinion.

*********Anyhow, congrats on your finish. "Go Team Merfolk!!!!" (sorry, Venture Brothers dork-out moment)

[Koby]

(19)
1 Island
4 Tundra
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland
2 Mutavault

(25)
3 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Standstill
3 Stifle
4 Aether Vial

(16)
4 Lord of Atlantis
3 Merrow Reejerey
4 Cursecatcher
3 Silvergill Adept
2 Wakethrasher


Why the Tundras if you don't have any white cards?

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Why the Tundras if you don't have any white cards?

I think his hypothetical white cards are in the sideboard... Although I've always used 3-4 Swords to Plowshares in the main when I've tried the white splash, which I would definitely recommend if you splash white. I wouldn't be so quick to discount the White splash as everyone has been recently in this thread. It tested pretty well for me over all when I was trying it (back when I had access to a PC to run MWS on... damn screwy Macs)

Honestly, I was this close to shilling out for Tundras and Flooded Strands back when I was testing it on MWS, but I don't want to spend the scrilla until I can put more testing into it.

Just for reference, here are the cards I like in the White splash:

-StP: this is the number one reason for the splash, in my opinion.
-Meddling Mage
-Orim's Chant
-Ethersworn Canonist

-Jotun Grunt is decent in several match-ups, but not really all that impressive. He suxors as graveyard hate, and he really only shines in attrition match-ups where both graves are going to be full and you want to have a non-tribal 4/4 on the ground. Pretty rare scenario
-most other stuff, like the enchantment that gives all creatures pro red, etc, just seem a little too cute.

...Anyhow

[Tacosnape]

The neat thing about Back to Basics is the synergy with Merrow Reejerey's untap trigger. Meaning you actually have a way to get your Mutavaults back under a Back to Basics.

That said, I have no idea if I like this maindecked or not. I think I'd rather have something along the lines of Relic or Jitte main and B2B in the board.

[_erbs_]

I've tried using back to basics main board, my reasons for using it was to serve as a mini geddon mostly my meta uses island thus its like geddon in blue. For multi-colored decks its okay but for mono or mirror it kinda sucs...

As for the sower... im guessing he hards-cast it or vial it in if needed. I haven't tried sower but i think its a tech card or surprise card. I have control magic in my SB since i don't own any sowers. Normally merfolks have early board position over your oppent and when your opponent drops a fatty your suddenly stalled or wait for your lord to make your creatures fatter to combat the fatty droped by your opponent a single rhox war monk would give you head aches already...

Sower can act as a jitte if your using it as a creature removal.

As for the extract its interesting on how did it work... i think adding countermagic is almost the same and has more versatility but im guessing he uses extract to view his/her opponents deck SB plans like the one posted above rather than for its actual ability...

[Skeggi]

1.) I, like Tacosnape, am a little curious over the Extracts in the sideboard: Which match-ups did you put those in for specifically? Did you end up using them to good effect during the tournament?
The Extracts were purely against ANT. We (Team ADHD who all played the same list at the tournament) were going to a meta where we knew a certain list of ANT was played. A list that only has 1 Tendrils and 1 Ad Nauseum maindeck. This list was played 8 times at the tournament, so we were right about that. The only time I sided in the Extracts was in the semi-final against ANT, and I didn't even have to use them. Game 1 I beat his face with a few Cursecatchers which eventually got sacrificed to prevent him from going off, and Game 2 (he knew I had Extract) he wanted to go off turn 1 "Let's see if you have FoW" he said. Well, I did :wink:. Another teammate of mine did get to use Extract against ANT, but the ANT player had both Ad Nauseum and Tendrils in his hand, so the Extract missed, haha. So basically: Extract was a meta call. In testing it helped out really well, but we just didn't run into a situation where we needed it or where it was useful at the tournament.

Compare Extract to Extirpate for a second, even though Extirpate is off-color and obviously not worth splashing for in this deck.
The obvious problem with Extirpate is that your opponent needs a useful card in his graveyard already. I can tell you, by the time ANT has either Ad Nauseum or Tendrils of Agony in his graveyard, it's too late :tongue:.


Just playing devil's advocate here, but I would be tempted to nix Extract, since it eats your early game tempo and it seems a little like a waste of sideboard slots, but I'm curious how it worked out for you. Please, tell us more about this one.
If you have a meta where there are few combo decks that are depending on 1 card in their entire list, Extract is useless. So you're probably completely right in your meta :smile:.


2.) Sower of Temptation: How did it work out? Were you able to get up to four lands and/or four counters on Vial often enough to get it out? Were you glad you main-decked it? Did she swing any games in your favor? I would absolutely *love* to hear on authority that Sower is a viable option for this deck.
I totally and utterly am in love with Sower of Temptation. Getting a Vial at 4 isn't that hard when you're beating face with Merfolk; often you get into a standstill when an opposing Tarmogoyf or Tombstalker can swing for lethal damage. Mere taking away the blocker is a purpose for Sower of Temptation. But the cases where Sower of Temptation actually lives and you can keep the Goyf/Stalker/Coatl are always winning games. I have yet to lose a game with a resolved Sower of Temptation that actually stole a Goyf and lives. The main problem with Sower of Temptation is that it usually gets killed. But otherwise, your Lord of Atlantis or Merrow Reejerey would have kicked the bucket. Sower is a big threat and your opponent has to deal with it.


3.) Back to Basics in the main-deck: I definitely see why this is good. On the other hand, did running four Mutavaults ever get in the way of Back to Basics? Did you ever find B2B just sitting dead in your hand in Game One? (Because obviously it just doesn't work that well in some match-ups...) I <33 Back to Basics, but I would worry about packing four Mutavaults in a build where I ran it in the main-deck.
Yes Mutavaults got stopped by Back to Basics, but that's not the reason why I lost. Ever. The reason why I lost to Landstill was, for instance, game 2 I kept drawing land and game 3 I kept drawing Dazes (Plus the fact that I had a good opponent didn't help either :wink:. He's known on this forum as Elf_Ascetic (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/member.php?u=2713)). I did draw some threats, but not so much he couldn't deal with it. Back to Basics was pretty useless in the tournament, but that's mainly because of the match-ups I got. Most of them had enough basics to ignore B2B. But the fact is, that B2B stops another deck that's pretty big in my meta, and basically our worst nightmare: Domain Zoo. This deck is so extremely strong. With so much removal and undercosted creatures, it really slaughters Merfolk. Forget Goblins, Domain Zoo is worse. Where you can counter the Vial and grow your Merfolk bigger than Goblins, Zoo just keeps on punching. But Domain Zoo has 1 big weakness: the entire manabase exists of nonbasic lands. You can see why Back to Basics comes in handy. You can immagine it works against a great deal of other good decks too. It stops that stupid Volrath's Stronghold or Academy Ruins from recurring nasty stuff. Even though Back to Basics didn't help me at the tournament, I'm still a big fan. I also believe 2 is the correct number maindeck, and 1 in the sideboard.


4.) Submerge: I've heard the arguments for it, and the ones against it. It seems a little limited to me honestly, but as someone who's played successfully using it, I'd like to hear your opinion.
Submerge is so good, it makes me cry a bit. It fits so well in the "We are Merfolk, we tap out and punch you in the face while we do it"-theme. If it wasn't for meta-call Extract I'd run 3 Submerge (and a 1-of Sower of Temptation) in the sideboard. The only match-up I encountered where I needed it was against UGr Thresh, and did I need it. If it wasn't to Submerge away a Goyf or Coatl while he went fetching, it was to save my Lord of Atlantis from certain death. Keeping Islandwalk against these sorts of decks is huge. Two of my teammates played a similar list in a 70+ player tournament the 7th of June where they ended up 2nd and 4th. The 2nd place lost to ANT (by Team Nijmegen; the guy who is known on this forum as mateml (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/member.php?u=2769)) in the finals, so you can see our trauma. Here (http://www.nedermagic.nl/toernooiverslag_item.asp?nws_id=775) is a decklist and a report in Dutch about that tournament. That was a tournament where Back to Basics and Submerge made the big difference and got both players into the top8. The deck is so strong, when they met in the 4th round (out of 7) they could afford to ID.

I must give props to my teammates for the list though. It's not like I designed the entire thing myself. In fact, the entire maindeck comes from 1 other teammate (in fact, you can see the maindeck from the decks on the 7th of June were exactly the same). But we all saw it was so strong we didn't have to change it a bit. The sideboard was a team-effort after alot of testing and analyzing the meta.

[KrzyMoose]

If you're running Extract, why not just run my sixth favorite card ever, Rootwater Thief?

Also, is Sower really better than Threads?

[Skeggi]

If you're running Extract, why not just run my sixth favorite card ever, Rootwater Thief?
Because ANT can easily go off turn 2 or 3.

Also, is Sower really better than Threads?
Depends on the situation. If you want to steal that Tombstalker or Lorescale Quotl, I'd say, yes, Sower is alot better :tongue:. And you can't Vial a Threads. Don't get me wrong, I love Threads, it's just more situational than Sower. But I still have 2 Threads in my sideboard.

[KrzyMoose]

But isn't taking a smaller guy more relevant? Like, if your worst matchup is Zoo, Threads seems a lot better.

[HBspulse]

I see in your report you used Back to basics as a weapon against Canadian Threshold?

It surprises me. They seem to be un-mana-screwable. And they have rebs.

I tend to have some problems with the matchup, they go all the way with a goose after bolting, firing, red elemental blasting, pyroclasming my creatures while I sit on threads/sower for the goyf they never drop.

B2b, I never even considered that? Does it improves this matchup?

[leander?]

I have a rather simple question for you Merfolk-pilots: What are Merfolk's bad matchups?
Thanks in advance.

[Tacosnape]

I kind of thought Extract was a metagame call against something. Just wasn't sure what. Was guessing either a combo deck or some kind of Intuition Control deck.

@Submerge: I like this in theory. I need to sit down and test it, but I've been thinking about it, and it fits into the free spell theme. It's the same reason I experimented with splashing Black for Snuff Out, which is surprisingly not bad either.

Submerge's synergy with Standstill is notable, too. Opponent has a Goyf down? Bounce the threat, drop the Standstill.


I have a rather simple question for you Merfolk-pilots: What are Merfolk's bad matchups?
Thanks in advance.

Things running Mountains.

[Skeggi]

@KrzMoose: yeah, I agree, against Zoo Threads is alot better. That's why I run both :tongue:.

It wasn't Canadian Threshold, it was UGr Threshold. No Stifles, no Wastelands (no CBTop), but with Lorescale Coatl for instance. And yes, any deck with alot of nonbasics is affected by Back to Basics.

I'd say Merfolk's bad match-ups are Goblins, Domain/Naya Zoo, Goyf Sligh, various The Rock builds (especially if they have Deeds), Burn, Elves!, Tempo Thresh/UGr Thresh, and TEES. These are the worst I think.

Further Aggro Loam can be a pain if they get Devastating Dreams or a Seismic Assault online, ANT can go broken and then there's no way you can win. The mirror is also mind-boggling hard (to cast the LoA or not to cast the LoA, that's the question :wink:).

I'm sure I'm forgetting about a few match-ups...


Things running Mountains.

That's a good rule of thumb :smile:

[lorddotm]

Submerge is an amazing card, almost defining Tempo, a free spell that bounces and uses up their next draw step.

My control magic of choice has been Mind Harness, but I have yet to draw it in a Tournament, but in testing, it has been pretty good, but maybe Threads is just better.

Sower seems really really really slow, I would rather just Echoing Truth Goyf in game 1, and then do something else broken in game 2 [Mind Harness lol].

[Nekrataal]

I have a rather simple question for you Merfolk-pilots: What are Merfolk's bad matchups?
Thanks in advance.

Generall speaking decks packing R and G in that order and sometimes B. Mostly due to either superior G creatures they play and due to the cability to cross your swarm tactics with direct damage (R) or other spot removal (B). I remember a sad game where every creature I laid was burned (you need 3 Lords to go out of direct burn range) and a single Nacatl kept attacking until my LP where reduced to 0.

Bad matchup in my experience:

Zoo / GoyfSligh (especially for the Mono U version)
MBC
The Rock (although your chance here is speed)
Goblins (especially for the Mono U version)
Enchantress (they just have to many good stuff for your 7 counters, in my experience it depends on the how fast Enchantress can lock you out of the game, and how many lock pieces are on the table so you stand a chance to perform a surprise bounce and attack all-in)
AggroLoam (this is more like 50/50 from my experience and the only amtchup where BtB really shines)


Zoo / Goyfsligh is thriving these days so I would expect to have at least one match against it in a bigger tournament.

[Piceli89]

Generall speaking decks packing R and G in that order and sometimes B. Mostly due to either superior G creatures they play and due to the cability to cross your swarm tactics with direct damage (R) or other spot removal (B). I remember a sad game where every creature I laid was burned (you need 3 Lords to go out of direct burn range) and a single Nacatl kept attacking until my LP where reduced to 0.

Bad matchup in my experience:

Zoo / GoyfSligh (especially for the Mono U version)
MBC
The Rock (although your chance here is speed)
Goblins (especially for the Mono U version)
Enchantress (they just have to many good stuff for your 7 counters, in my experience it depends on the how fast Enchantress can lock you out of the game, and how many lock pieces are on the table so you stand a chance to perform a surprise bounce and attack all-in)
AggroLoam (this is more like 50/50 from my experience and the only amtchup where BtB really shines)


Zoo / Goyfsligh is thriving these days so I would expect to have at least one match against it in a bigger tournament.

I've found lately that even Storm Combo, if well built and played by an expert dude, is not-that-easy, unless you have a god hand with several daze effects and double FoW or he gets a really shitty hand.lately,playing TES, i was able to beat Merfolks twice without too much labor. The lack of several hard counters here is crucial, but i found that the worst card a combo player considers of Merfolks is not FoW, is Wasteland. At least, by my point of view.

Ah, I'd also consider Canadian Threshold to be that much not-so-favorable. 50-50 pre, 45-55/40-60 post. Even if you have your Wastelands, your Stifle, ecc, they can play the tempo role way better than you. and 4 Bolts and 4 Fire/Ices really hurt your army. Not to mention the Pyroblasts and the Pyroclasms coming from the sideboard in g2 and g3. And facing a goyf without lords (which regularly get burned) gets really, really hard.
For any reason in the world, keep them off the red mana. Waste their Volcanic, play Back to basics, tear their cards, but do NOT allow them to stick a Vulchy on the ground, or you're going to lose.

Finally,I would like to precise that Zoo and Goblins are almost unwinnable preboard, and even post they're hella hard. a Turn 1 3/3 Nacatl has already done half of the job. Nacatl+ 1/2 bolts/chain lightnings/insertrandomburnspellhere is gg.
Goblins can kill your lords very easily, and most of all have a bastard dog named Piledriver who can stick in defense until they land , in 1 turn, 4/5 bastards and proceed to fuck you hard with their X/2. The only thing that could save you from Pilly is Mutavault. But they have wastelands too. And Ports.

The formula is: if your meta goes towards aggro, don't play merfolks.

[Patrunkenphat7]

Generall speaking decks packing R and G in that order and sometimes B. Mostly due to either superior G creatures they play and due to the cability to cross your swarm tactics with direct damage (R) or other spot removal (B). I remember a sad game where every creature I laid was burned (you need 3 Lords to go out of direct burn range) and a single Nacatl kept attacking until my LP where reduced to 0.

Bad matchup in my experience:

Zoo / GoyfSligh (especially for the Mono U version)
MBC
The Rock (although your chance here is speed)
Goblins (especially for the Mono U version)
Enchantress (they just have to many good stuff for your 7 counters, in my experience it depends on the how fast Enchantress can lock you out of the game, and how many lock pieces are on the table so you stand a chance to perform a surprise bounce and attack all-in)
AggroLoam (this is more like 50/50 from my experience and the only amtchup where BtB really shines)


Zoo / Goyfsligh is thriving these days so I would expect to have at least one match against it in a bigger tournament.

7 counters? I run 14: 4 FoW, 4 Daze, 4 Cursecatcher, 2 Spell Snare.

[Piceli89]

7 counters? I run 14: 4 FoW, 4 Daze, 4 Cursecatcher, 2 Spell Snare.

With a normal list of Merfolks, can you counter an enchantment with a Cursecatcher?
And spell snare is so-and-so in Merfolks,imo.
7 because he arguably plays 3 dazes instead of 4.

[Koby]

The formula is: if your meta goes towards aggro, don't play merfolks.

I disagree. Merfolk can still win against even a heavy aggro meta, and I have data to prove it. Granted its in the MTGO-Classic format, which is almost nearly identical to Legacy. But it remains true that Merfolk is the 2nd most played deck, after Zoo, and still gets more wins in T8 than Zoo.

Proper metagaming is crucial of course. Stifle is not that hot in aggro metas, while Spellstutter Sprite is nicer.

[Piceli89]

I disagree. Merfolk can still win against even a heavy aggro meta, and I have data to prove it. Granted its in the MTGO-Classic format, which is almost nearly identical to Legacy. But it remains true that Merfolk is the 2nd most played deck, after Zoo, and still gets more wins in T8 than Zoo.

Proper metagaming is crucial of course. Stifle is not that hot in aggro metas, while Spellstutter Sprite is nicer.

Spellstutter Sprite? Definitely better against aggro-control, you wanted to mean. Try to stay with 2 mana open to counter a cc1 and get a 1/1 flying body.Wow. Your opponent will already have dropped at least 1 Kird ape, 1 Nacatl and perhaps 1 Pridemage, i.e. you'll scoop up your cards in a few turns. There are just bigger creatures in zoo that in merfolks alone, and if you try to go mana-denial way, you'll lose mana/turns saving mana instead of playing your Merfolks/spells and they'll still outrace you. Every single creature Zoo plays is a threat for us, be it Kird Ape too. And all a wise Zoo player will have to do is drop 1-2 guys, and proceed burning all your lords. Period.
Not to mention Standstill in this matchup,unless you go turn 1 (on the play) vial,turn 2 standstill,is complete shit.

[Koby]

Yes, the Zoo matchup is still tough as nails. But in a metagame filled with Zoo (and I'm talking about 20% Zoo meta - most people play shit pet decks that never plan on winning anyway and are easy to beat), Merfolk still has a shot. And it still beats the crap out of any blue-based deck and combo.

[johanessen]

It's the same reason I experimented with splashing Black for Snuff Out, which is surprisingly not bad either.

Sounds sexy..

Which was the list, and the Sb?

[Phoenix Ignition]

Snuff out sounds surprisingly bad, since zoo and goyf sligh are going to welcome you taking 4 to the face to remove something you could have probably chump blocked.

Submerge would be optimal here due to high numbers of fetchlands that they run.

I do hope to be proved wrong though. Snuff out tech would be quite fun to use.

[tivadar]

Yeah, I keep growing more and more attached to Threads of Disloytaly. The fact is, it's amazing against Zoo and Goyf Sligh, which are your bad matchups, though it falls short against goblins, unfortunately. My issue with Sower is that I'd much rather have a guarenteed 2/1 than an attempted 3/1 that typicaly turns into a 1/1 (when they burn Sower). It does occasionally not 2/1 when Zoo is packing Quasali Pridemage, but still, I've found it to be a pretty amazing maindeck way of dealing with a large number of creatures in the format. Not to mention, hello mirror! It easily trumps their echoing truth.

[Tacosnape]

Sounds sexy..

Which was the list, and the Sb?

It's kind of unpolished, but this was what it was. It took my love of Team America's free spell concept and went from there.

3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
4 Island
3 Mutavault
3 Wasteland

4 Cursecatcher
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Wake Thrasher

4 Aether Vial
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Snuff Out

SB:
4 Hydroblast
4 Deathmark
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Pithing Needle
2 Umezawa's Jitte

[keys]

For a Team America player, what's the best anti-Merfolk SB card?

I've been having a lot of trouble with this deck. Standstill is so amazing, and TA's manabase is a lot more vulnerable to Stifle/Waste than 'folk is.

I've generally regarded Pernicious Deed as stronger than E Plague, but they're hard to play if there's enough LD pressure from the 'folk player. I play 2 of them plus 1 Engineered Explosives, anyway.

If I have 2 more open spots, what should I fill them with?

Also, Taco: If you're really gonna splash black, Perish > Deathmark, but I really think you should try Echoing Truth maindeck and playset of Submerge in the SB if you haven't already.

[Finn]

Honestly, keys Maybe 1 island and 1 swamp. If you can land an early goyf or stalker you can win g1 pretty easy. After that you just have to not get owned by mana denial and do the same in g2

[nitewolf9]

With TA I usually get trounced by Merfolk game 1, and I find the next 2 games to be in my favor because of Plagues + extra Removal (Edict) replacing Sinkholes (usually blanks here) and Stifle. Plague is still an issue for this deck if your Lords can be removed. Plague lets you essentially stay ahead. Still, not a fun matchup.

[kabal]

...I find the next 2 games to be in my favor because of Plagues + extra Removal (Edict) replacing Sinkholes (usually blanks here) and Stifle.

Is Stifle really the optimal choice? Wasteland + Relic seems pretty brutal game 2.

[keys]

Well I don't play edicts so I only have Pernicious Deed/EE to SB in for Sinkhole.

Does Pithing Needle help against Vial/Mutavault/Wasteland? The synergy with Deed isn't very good though.

T1 Vial, T2 Standstill is just so damn hard to answer.

[lorddotm]

Well I don't play edicts so I only have Pernicious Deed/EE to SB in for Sinkhole.

Does Pithing Needle help against Vial/Mutavault/Wasteland? The synergy with Deed isn't very good though.

T1 Vial, T2 Standstill is just so damn hard to answer.

I really like the idea of the 1 Swamp and 1 Island in the side to help against the Wasteland and Stifles that Merfolk fire off so often.

Needle just seems really bad, mostly because you want to be using EE for 1 and Deed just cleans it out.

[F3lix]

Well I don't play edicts so I only have Pernicious Deed/EE to SB in for Sinkhole.

Does Pithing Needle help against Vial/Mutavault/Wasteland? The synergy with Deed isn't very good though.

T1 Vial, T2 Standstill is just so damn hard to answer.

You're so right about the vial/ss death sentence. As a TA player, I will try to counter the vial, then let ss resolve. play draw/go for a few turns until they start to discard, then eot brainstorm. Hopefully by now you have have a large enough gy (obviously through initial counter and fetchs and maybe a ponder if on the play) and mana base to play a tombstalker and race while you're a turn ahead. Also try to make this play with with an open mana to avoid daze. One thing I'm not to sure about though is to fetch while under the protecting of daze or to wait to the big turn to fetch and hope they didnt draw stifle, in order to maximize land draw because you really want 4-5 to go off, which can be tough to find in TA.

Theoretically this should resolve the stalker at least half the time consider you both run the daze/fow package though you'd be down 1 counter, but it it is balanced by the fact you play the first threat. Also the CA is now in you favor because they are left with 7 while you get 1 from bs and another for the draw, so you chances for the counter battle go in you favor. But remember that this is all hypothetical and many things can go wrong like a recounter from the initial vial, which if resolved is usually gg for g1 at least.

Vial and SS are really the last cards I want to see, especially vail because it nullifies my mana denail game and lets them usually play around 1.5 threats a turn, and it is death if i dont see/resolve enough snuffouts/smother.

In fish heavy metas I might just even play Llawan to spite those damn fish heads. Plus playing Llawan would definitely give me some street cred :cool:

As for the best anti fish cards id say Needle for the vials/wastelands. They are really bad late game draws, but TA shines in being able to ponder, brainstorm, to find them early and shuffle them later.

As for the Engineered Plague/Deed argument, I'd say Plague is the easy winner because its less mana intensive and cannot be stifled. But then again my list plays 4 snuffs and 1 smother, so taking out lords is usually not to hard. But then again a EE can be better than both but its more situational.

[F3lix]

It's kind of unpolished, but this was what it was. It took my love of Team America's free spell concept and went from there.

3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
4 Island
3 Mutavault
3 Wasteland

4 Cursecatcher
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Wake Thrasher

4 Aether Vial
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Snuff Out

SB:
4 Hydroblast
4 Deathmark
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Pithing Needle
2 Umezawa's Jitte

As I said a page or 2 ago, one of fishes big strength is it's invulnerability to mana denial. Sure the tempo is nice but you already beat blue based decks that play goyf, and it pretty much takes away any hope of beating red and green decks. Just play Echoing Truth, it pitches to FoW, takes care of Tombstalker and confidant for at least a turn, or even gives you a chance if timed well against ichorid.

[Wargoos]

Made Top4 at a qualifying event for the worlds today.
Since I made no notes, here's a quick summary of my mu's

1. MUC 2-1
2. Zoo 2-0
3. Mirror 2-1
4. Mirror 2-1
5. ID
6. ID

Top8
-----
quarter finals
Zoo 2-1

semi finals
survival elfes
1-0 lead, but I dropped, because I was in a hurry to meet my gf at the central station.

When I played, I guess I would've won, since I dropped at a game state, in which he had 3 1/1 elfes, and I 4 Islands, a Mutavault and drew a Jitte.
Top2 prices would be a qualification for the worlds in rome and a dci bloodstained mire...


Nevertheless I picked a tundra and am quite happy with it.
Tourney was fun all day, since I met lots of friends and nice opp's.
Also my list convinced me in packing this deck in the future.

That's what I've been packing so far:

4 Cursecatcher
4 Adepts
4 Lords of Atlantis
4 Reejereys
2 Wakethrasher
2 Souvereign (2 add. lords were awesome all day and helped me lots vs. zoo and made me win games with wakethrasher-only in play)

2 Echoing Truth
3 Standstill ( 3 was a very good number)
4 Daze
4 Force
3 Stifle
4 Aether Vial

3 Mutavault
4 Wasteland
13 Islands

Side:
Well, since I could forebode the meta ( I used to play at the place quite often) I knew, I'ld need something against heavy aggro.
That was my gear to beat those things:
3 Mind Harness
3 Relic of progenitus
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Chill
1 Stifle
3 Blue Elemental Blast


Top8 was this (unsorted order)

ANT (I guess he made top2)
Elfes Survi (awful player, but since I dropped against him, hes top2)
Merfolk (me)
Goblins
Goblins
Goblins
Bantcontrolaggroprogenitusnomegapile.dec
Zoo

I liked the list all day, as I said, but the side needs probably a bit more tweaking.

Awesome deck!
Keep it up!

[Tacosnape]

Less than four Wake Thrashers is a mistake. Less than four Standstills is a mistake. That's about all I have to say about the above list. Merfolk is close to the best deck in the format as far as having superiority under Standstills. As far as I'm aware, the only thing it struggles seriously to gain superiority against under a Standstill is Ichorid.

Given what you played against, how was Stifle? I can't see it being better than a lot of other choices against the mirror, and I can't see it doing much against MUC except for possibly stopping Ancestral Visions, if it ran it. Would you have been better off maindecking Jitte?

[Patrunkenphat7]

Less than four Wake Thrashers is a mistake. Less than four Standstills is a mistake. That's about all I have to say about the above list. Merfolk is close to the best deck in the format as far as having superiority under Standstills. As far as I'm aware, the only thing it struggles seriously to gain superiority against under a Standstill is Ichorid.

Given what you played against, how was Stifle? I can't see it being better than a lot of other choices against the mirror, and I can't see it doing much against MUC except for possibly stopping Ancestral Visions, if it ran it. Would you have been better off maindecking Jitte?

Standstills - yes you should always run 4. It's one of the most powerful cards in the deck from my experience.

Wake Thrashers - You never want to play 4. It's a 1/1 for 3 mana with an ability that's only relevant for attacking. It's nice to draw one in a game as a big beater, but 4 doesn't make sense. 3 maximum; 2 is a pretty solid number.

Spell Snare would be the best replacement for the Stifle slot IMO. I like 2 Snares and a 3rd Echoing Truth instead of the Stifles.

[Wargoos]

Less than four Wake Thrashers is a mistake.


Well, mogg fanatics were everywhere and they just take out the thrasher.
Also I've seen some Canadian Threshold players and losing wakethrasher and another 'folk to fire isn't all that sexy. Believe me, I would play 10 Thrasher if it ld be possible, but at the moment I can't find more space for them.



Less than four Standstills is a mistake.

Standstill while being a urgent necessity was cut for the 13th island.
In this aggro infested meta it just isn't that gamebreaking.
Zoo has 2-3 critters on board when you can bring standstill online and ll put you under such pressure that +3 cards won't help you if they burn you out.

For Goblins it's quite the same.
Lackeys and vial can sneak goblins in for them without triggering standstill and incinerators ll just burn your folks away and leaving you at a disadvantage.

Against combo it's a so so situation.
When you can place a t1 vial on board and follow with ss its obviously as good as game for you.
But if you don't have the vial, you can't build up enough pressure, which leads to them drawing cards for some turns, breaking you with duress and going off with nauseam.
Mostly I was dissapointed with ss against combo-decks.



Given what you played against, how was Stifle?
Stifle had it's moments.
Delayed vialing action in the mirror and gave me time against muc, stifling his visions / kegs.
On the other side, I don't know what Spell Snare would 've done in this matchups.
I usually don't want to counter the muc player's counterspell since I have the vials and I can't think of another muc-target.

Against zoo I can say, that being able to wreck their bad manabase is more important than countering one single goyf, since they still will continue to play cc1 critters and burn.

Against Goblins all that spell snare does is taking away their worst card, which is the piledriver. Stifle on the other hand, negates their cardadvantage engine in ringleader and rescues my folks against incinerators and fanatics.

I don't see where spell snare would be the better option.
Maybe you could come up with some points.



Would you have been better off maindecking Jitte

I just don't know.
While I see that it seems just all to gamebreaking against those aggro-dudes,
you have to keep in mind, that it's pretty chunky.
What will Jitte do if your creatures will be burned away?
Also against Goblins it won't give you much , since +4 life does not matters, since they can inflict heavy damage being so explosive and you often have to remove to counters to remove on gob.
Also with the rise of the chieftain jitte gets marginal worse.
Zoo creatures are as well often too big.

I would rather have stifles and jitte (out of the board) against goblins.
I also want to try playing 3 jitten in the board, but 2 wen't quite well for me that day.

[idraleo]

Against combo it's a so so situation.
When you can place a t1 vial on board and follow with ss its obviously as good as game for you.
But if you don't have the vial, you can't build up enough pressure, which leads to them drawing cards for some turns, breaking you with duress and going off with nauseam.
Mostly I was dissapointed with ss against combo-decks.


A considerable option to deal against comboish is going with Vendilion Clique. They can't Duress them out, and mostof the times your permission spells keeps you in the game since you have 3 lands on board; Vendilion gives you a chance that any other spell could, and is even a dead card in your hand because it did well against each deck.

I'v started play this deck packing Stifle as you did, and yes, sometimes it have his place. It could save some game or stop some early threat, but i find that Spell Snare and his chance to counter CB, or Standstill or Truth in the mirror games, or Tarmogoyf too most relevant. That's my actual build (i just t8ted a 64 people tornament)

12 Island
4 Mutavault
4 Wasteland

4 Reejerey
4 LoA
4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Wake Thrasher

4 Ss
4 Vial
4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Snare


Sb

2 Echoing
2 Tormod's
1 Relic
4 BeB
2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress (seriously, this bitch rules the mirror match)
2 Jitte
2 Pithing (random/metaslots)

I did perfect the first 4 turns, winning each game 2-0, against Rock, Bant, DS and SurvivaL.deck, then going ID for the last 2 turns. The list seems pretty solid, but i feel that i'm going back to a couple of ET on maindeck...

[Wargoos]

but i find that Spell Snare and his chance to counter CB, or Standstill or Truth in the mirror games, or Tarmogoyf too most relevant.
Well CB, Standstill or Truth is in my opinion not worth the spell snare.
I mean, against cb we have vials and our own counters and against decks packing blue, we have a positive mu already. So why bother?
Standstill is not even a threat to us, since we can abuse it pretty good ourselfes and Truth will always bounce no more than one permanent when you play smart.
Additional lords also help against truth and you still can vial bounced creatures in.
The only threat to us is tarmogoyf and we can easily outrace and ignore him, when playing vs. blue.dec


€dit: Oh, and Clique is an awesome tip, I'll definitely try her. love that card.

[Tacosnape]

Wake Thrashers - You never want to play 4. It's a 1/1 for 3 mana with an ability that's only relevant for attacking.

You say "That's only relevant for attacking" like Merfolk doesn't generally want to attack. And that's not enough of a drawback to make a 3 mana creature that pitches to Force of Will and swings for about 6 on average not a 4-of.

Seriously? Thrasher can swing through everything in this format that you don't have to Stifle to get in to play. There's nobody better to be topdecking/drawing/playing on turns four and five. There's nobody better to Vial in EOT. And as Merfolk isn't a deck that ever has to leave mana, there's no reason that you'll ever start the turn with an untapped land. So the -smallest- that Thrasher's ever going to be, generally, is 4/4 to attack. This isn't counting an additional one for each Vial, and an additional one for each creature that attacked on the previous turn. I find Thrasher averaging between 5/5 and 7/7, and that's not counting Lord of Atlantis and Merrow Reejerey bonuses.

Wake Thrasher is the the second or third best pure beater in the format, and the best that isn't vulnerable to graveyard hate. I've won countless games by topdecking a Thrasher on turn 6 or 7, and several more than I've lost from having them clog my hand too much in the early turns.

[Finn]

The only problem I have against Wake Thrasher is the fact that he is at his worst in our worst matchups. That fact continues to piss me off. In the other 85% of games the card is chock full of win. It's hard to not like him when your opponents don't play Mountains.

EaD, wow, you won against a field that is not really this deck's best matchups. If I saw the same diet of Zoo and mirror all day I would have felt cheated. Of course that presumes that I don't go undefeated like you did.

[tivadar]

Is it so crazy to think about maindeck red deck hate? Obviously, this needs to be something of the form that pitches to Force of Will, and the more general the better, but that shouldn't be too hard. I think that's largely the reason I've been going with Threads maindeck. It'd typically be a sideboard choice but it's just so good against my bad matchups. And even when it isn't, at least I can pitch it.

But I can also imagine maindecking submerge or mind harness. After all, many people already maindeck relic, which is essentially a sideboard card that cantrips. So why not mainboarding a sideboard card that pitches to FoW and provides some red hate?

[Muradin]

If you want to mainboard something like Mind harness I'd go for threads of disloyalty. They do nearly the same in Aggro matchups which tend to be bad for merfolk and are in general less narrow because tarmogoyf is a 4 of in about a third of all legacy decks and it can take other creatures like Dark Confidant, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Painter's Servant (unless they name Red) as well and you don't have to invest mana in the card more often than once.

[Wargoos]

So why not mainboarding a sideboard card that pitches to FoW and provides some red hate?
Because it's pretty conditional and bad without force?
I want cards, that actually always do something on their own.
Also the deck is pretty tight packed as it is now.
Only slots I would give up under certain circumstances ( if I know the meta for example) are the ET's. Would swap them for jittes.
But md redhate just isn't worth it. The mu is pretty bad game one, and some jittes won't make a huge difference.
The addition of the new lords is just so good, also helps against those aggro dudes, so try to go with them, and they 'll convince you as they convinced me.
Since merfolk has it's good mu's against anything running blue, you often don't need to board anyting against them to steal g2 or 3 which allows you to pack more cards against aggro in the side. That was my thought when deciding which deck to play that day. And it worked.

And nice gimmick: An unblockable 15/15 Thrasher gets those pesky elfes down.

@ Finn: Thank you very much :)
Well, I was prepared to beat aggro since I knew the metagame and had to play against some familiar faces.
And beating zoo ist just manageable. Just try to run your gameplan against those decks and it's even possible game one.
Don't get too greedy and keep decent hands that contain nonbasic-hate.
After boarding it's usually yours with 11 cards out of the board, of which 5 are totally devastating for them.
At least, it worked for me.

[Maveric78f]

Not so bad MDable red/green hate :
Consign to Dream => the only good card (I think I've just felt in love)
Hunting Drake
Ether Well

[tivadar]

Consign to Dreams is an interesting choice, but it's still 3 mana for an unsummon (albeit one that puts creatures on top instead). Obviously submerge is infinite times better assuming you're playing against a green deck (3/0 = infinite). I don't think I'd consider boarding in Consign against a deck, so why would I run it maindeck?

Hunting drake is horrible.
Ether well is horrible.
Way too much mana for what they do!

I'd agree that threads is probably still general enough to fill this spot, and it 2/1's against many decks. Harness is still a pretty good card and applicable against a good portion of the field.


Because it's pretty conditional and bad without force

Yeah, and Relic is pretty conditional and bad without 2 open mana... Yet some of the decks that have had the most success run it mainboard. Was just giving people something to consider.


And nice gimmick: An unblockable 15/15 Thrasher gets those pesky elfes down.

Where are you pulling 15/15 thrasher from? I mean, that's a) kinda overkill, and b) nearly impossible to do.

[Maveric78f]

tivadar : about Consign to Dreams, it's not an unsummon dude, it's a freaking boomerang. Not at all the same deal. It's a MD solution to everything (as well as echoing truth or rushing river). I've never understood how merfolk sourcers could possibly prefer ET to river in the first place. River and Consign to Dreams are real contenders for the universal bounce the deck needs MD.

[Piceli89]

The fact,Maveric,is that with Consign to Dream this deck would have way too many 3ccs. Reejerey, Thrasher, (Clique or Threads for someone), and now Consign to Dream.It would become really overburden in the 3cc.

And Rushing River is just better for that purpose.

[Nightmare]

I've been doing a lot of playing with this deck lately, and Wake Thrasher has been completely cut from my build. Here's the rub:

He's great on the attack. I don't think there's any question about this. In general, he's going to swing for about 6-8 every time you want to attack with him. However, this isn't really what you're looking for with the slot he employs. See, he's not really any different from any of the other merfolk in the deck in terms of his strengths - All of them are effectively vanilla beaters that turn sideways with no evasion when you're not facing Islands. He's strongest against our best matchups - control decks running few threats, where you can "Abyss" them with Thrasher until they can't stop him anymore. Unfortunately, he's clunky as hell in your worst matchups, where you need him to play defense. He's a three mana 1/1 on your opponent's turn - every time - and effectively much, much worse than even Cursecatcher is on defense, since at least Curscatcher provides disruption and costs a third of the mana - possibly allowing you to activate an untapped Mutavault with the mana saved.

In my experience with the deck, and with Thrasher in particular, it's come down to a matter of space. He'd be the first card added if there was a "Merfolk Matron" worth running, that would let me run him as a one-of "Piledriver-esque" tutorable slot. Until that happens, I don't plan to add him back to the deck.

For reference, the list I've been running -

4 Wasteland
3 Mutavault
3 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
5 Island

4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Merfolk Sovereign

4 Aether Vial
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Stifle
4 Standstill

SB
2 Relic of Progenitus
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Disenchant
2 Absolute Law
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sower of Temptation/Seasinger/Threads/Control Magic (Steal Shit Slot)

Running 12 Lords has been, in no uncertain terms, the absolute nut high. Literally every guy now Disrupts, Cantrips, or pumps the rest of your guys. This is the most explosive build of the deck I've ever seen. Typical hosers like Pyroclasm and Engineered Plague are shrugged off now, and you'd be amazed at how fast the damage stacks up.

I've needed to cut one of the colorless mana sources from the deck due to the addition of the Sovereigns, since the UU requirements are higher now. I chose to cut the Mutavault over the Wasteland due to the tempo advantages being more valuable than the additional threat. This is a fast deck. Much faster than it was even with Goyf. Stifle and Waste are pretty much just there to buy you the three or so attack steps it takes to win the game.

[DeeJus]

I recently played in the tournament in Vestil, New York. (I think)
I placed 12th in the main event which allowed for free entry into the side event, which I won for $150 in store credit.
For reference, this was the list that I ran.

12 Island
4 Mutavault
4 Wasteland

4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
3 Wake Thrasher

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Standstill
3 Echoing Truth

4 Aether Vial
3 Relic of Progenitus

SB:
3 Hibernation
3 Back to Basics
3 Propaganda
3 Submerge
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress

Rounds went like this:
UW Landstill 2-1
Uwb Landstill 2-0
Aggro Loam 2-1
Ug Fish 0-2
Green Stax? 1-2
Something Else (Thresh maybe) 2-0

Side Event:
UB Reanimator 2-0
Team America 2-1
Solidarity 2-1
UW Landstill 2-0

Landstill matches were easy. I dropped the first game to it due to a lack of shuffling after writing up the deck list, and having to mull to five or six. Continued bad draws did me in.

Aggro loam was, of course, a difficult matchup. He was very surprised at the Main deck relics, and submerge + BtB from the board really shined here. Submerging a goyf in response to a fetchland being cracked is a great play. It didn't come into play here because I'd rather have him draw a goyf every turn instead of another Loam etc.

The Ug Fish player went on to place in the top 8. Seemed to be a typical list with goyfs and most likely sb green cards. I still can't justify splashing for Goyfs when we already have big guys that can just get bigger. Weakening the mana base just hurts too much. But he must have been doing something right. He was definitely a superior player. At one point, he had two wastelands out and 3 islands (one tropical) in his hand. He plays an island, dazes it himself and pays the 1 to bounce his only island to his hand. He had to LoA's in play.

Green Stax? Yes, I was very surprised at this. I assumed it was Survival with Natural Order/Progenitus after game one because I didn't see much other than Elves and Progenitus. Hibernation won the second game bouncing a Garruk, a token, a choke, and a Progenitus. He was running a Dryad Arbor which seemed really good as a one of since a bunch of players forgot about it when he attempted to natural order, sacking it. He posts as Hollywood on the forums I believe. Seemed like a really cool guy.

I'm pretty sure the last match was Thresh but I can't quite remember, I went into the tournament with no sleep, having to leave at 4am the day of the tournament, I decided to just stay up. I got about 30 minutes in the car. As for the deck, I didn't see much, or if I did, I don't remember it.

In the side event, Reanimator was first. Islandwalking, MD Relics, etc helped a lot. One time I didn't have the counter he brought back an Akroma instead of an Empyrial Archangel when I had leathel and Islandwalking on the table. Play mistakes helped here, but it would have only bought him one extra turn.

Team america. I've played against this a lot in my testing, so I knew what to do. I didnt recognize it at fist but luckily popped a Relic to draw into my second land the same turn he would have been able to drop a Tombstalker. It's almost an auto win for me, but in game three having the Submerge the turn he would swing for the win with Tomby won me the match. I seemed to have a lot of luck in the match.

Solidarity. I played against a friend of the Deck's creator. You know the guy? I didn't, but apparently he's semi-famous. Or used to be. Solidarity player wins game one comboing in my attack step the turn I would win. He mulls to five next game and I pressure a Wake Thrasher as a 6/6 Through for the win early. Final game he attempts to combo off but makes a play mistake, I force Reset that he had cast twincast on for the win. He was holding a Wish. He should have waited to see if I had the counter first. Sorry buddy! :D Lucky me, eh?

Last round, Landstill from earlier. Game one win on turn six or seven. Game two I drop Turn 1 vial, he drops a fetch. Waits till my turn to crack it for a tundra. Pauses... puts tundra into play after thinking if a basic owuld be better. I drop turn two wasteland. In response he brainstorms revealing to me 2 cards and an academy ruins. No land in hand. He scoops and extends the hand. Really nice guy though.

All in all I had a really fun day, and although I had just about no sleep, I still put forth a pretty good show.

Well, any comments please post.

DJ O'Hara, DeeJus.

[LostButSeeking]

Green Stax? Yes, I was very surprised at this. I assumed it was Survival with Natural Order/Progenitus after game one because I didn't see much other than Elves and Progenitus. Hibernation won the second game bouncing a Garruk, a token, a choke, and a Progenitus. He was running a Dryad Arbor which seemed really good as a one of since a bunch of players forgot about it when he attempted to natural order, sacking it. He posts as Hollywood on the forums I believe. Seemed like a really cool guy.


Hollywood has a write-up in the tournament report section on his green stompy list, if you'd like to read it. It's an interesting list, and one that he says has a good matchup against 'folk, so you might want to take a look.

[DeeJus]

Thanks for letting me know. Yeah, it seems like he designed the deck with Fish in mind, so I don't feel so bad for losing to him. On top of that he has much more experience than I do. I'm just seventeen and have only been playing Legacy since about January of this year.

[tivadar]

Final game he attempts to combo off but makes a play mistake, I force Reset that he had cast twincast on for the win. He was holding a Wish. He should have waited to see if I had the counter first. Sorry buddy! :D Lucky me, eh?

Hmm, I don't believe that's a play mistake. When he casts reset, he then gets priority first. He can choose to either pass, or play his twincast immediately. If he passes and you pass (don't counter), reset resolves and he can't twincast it. The only way he can twincast is to cast it immediately, before you have a chance to counter, and then, of course, you can respond to that. Mind you, I don't know other board position info, but if he really needed to twincast his reset, it was the only way to go. Outside of cheating and pausing for a significant amount of time to see if you'll say anything.

[Finn]

I have been liking Sovereign as well. I think I would use 3, but I have been surprised how much I like him. Amazingly, I have even used his ability a few times. Nightmare, I really like your build. I am concerned about the 9 white mana sources though. I find that a lot of people on this site play too many basics and are content to be holding uncastable cards. I fear that you have done that. Tell me I am wrong here. I mean, is it so bad to just add two more Deltas for 11 White sources?

Anyway, I see something like this looking more like the way the deck goes.

[DeeJus]

Hmm, I don't believe that's a play mistake. When he casts reset, he then gets priority first. He can choose to either pass, or play his twincast immediately. If he passes and you pass (don't counter), reset resolves and he can't twincast it. The only way he can twincast is to cast it immediately, before you have a chance to counter, and then, of course, you can respond to that. Mind you, I don't know other board position info, but if he really needed to twincast his reset, it was the only way to go. Outside of cheating and pausing for a significant amount of time to see if you'll say anything.
I mean if he passes and I pass, reset resolves and he untaps his four lands, all which tap for UU at this point. He then has a wish, a twincast, and some other spell in hand. If he casts wish i have to counter it. If he doesnt cast twincast then, and I dont counter the reset, he is free to twincast my counter to counter it and complete his turn.

[Nightmare]

I have been liking Sovereign as well. I think I would use 3, but I have been surprised how much I like him. Amazingly, I have even used his ability a few times. Nightmare, I really like your build. I am concerned about the 9 white mana sources though. I find that a lot of people on this site play too many basics and are content to be holding uncastable cards. I fear that you have done that. Tell me I am wrong here. I mean, is it so bad to just add two more Deltas for 11 White sources?

Anyway, I see something like this looking more like the way the deck goes.
I could probably be convinced to go to 3 Deltas, but I don't think you really need 11 white sources. You don't play any white spells game 1, and the Tundras are actually worse than basics in that game. Games 2 and 3, you only ever need a single white, although having it stick around can be nice. I find that my first fetch rarely searches a Tundra, so it's possible that adding another fetch could be beneficial since it ups the chance that the second blue source could be a white source too. I'll play around a bit with it.

Glad you like the build though. It's really strong.

[tivadar]

I find it amusing that a few pages back I was suggesting splash without brainstorm and people thought I was crazy for it :-P. I also suggested the lower white count ;). Minus swapping thrasher for sovereign, this is pretty close to my list. Anyways, yeah, I did some testing, it's pretty solid.

Any reason you chose not to go maindeck Swords to Plowshares?

[Nightmare]

I find it amusing that a few pages back I was suggesting splash without brainstorm and people thought I was crazy for it :-P. I also suggested the lower white count ;). Minus swapping thrasher for sovereign, this is pretty close to my list. Anyways, yeah, I did some testing, it's pretty solid.

Any reason you chose not to go maindeck Swords to Plowshares?

It's not always that useful. I know it's sacrilege to suggest it, but it's rarely something you should be focusing on. It's beneficial vs. our matchups like Zoo, Elves, and the Mirror, but against stuff like Thresh, Landstill, combo, Ichorid, and the like, it's four slots that are better served by the consistency of the maindeck as I've laid it out. In other words, the more aggro the opponent, the more useful it is. I suppose if your metagame is decidedly bent toward aggressive decks, then it could very well be worth fitting into the main. In an open meta, however, I'd leave them in the board.

I'm curious to know what you'd be cutting for them, though. I've had some difficulty with the deck when it comes to sideboarding - Especially for a matchup like AggroLoam, where I want to bring in roughly 12 cards.

[Finn]

Ehh, I still prefer w/out the splash I think. Adam has gone to 21 lands though and kept STP in the side. I like that compromise.

[tivadar]

I don't really view keeping STP in the side as a compromise. The fact is that what hurts you with splashing is either the duals (land destruction) or the fetchlands (sligh decks). Fetching 3 times during a game essentially bolts you. And while you can use STP on your own critters to win some of that life back, that tends to be a last resort.

As for what I'd cut from:
4 Wasteland
3 Mutavault
3 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
5 Island

4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Merfolk Sovereign

4 Aether Vial
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Stifle
4 Standstill

Well, I think I'd only run 3 STP main, as 4 is overkill. The first two drops are obvious for me, 1 critter and a daze. The critter would probably be 1 sovereign. From there, I've always run 20 lands not 21, so I'd be tempted to say a land. Though I'm sure you're running your manabase for a reason. I'm not sure what I'd cut for the last STP.

As for sacrilege, I already got stoned for not running brainstorm, so I hardly think dropping STP as well is that big of a thing. You're right, you want to keep up the aggro, and STP can hurt that by giving your opponent life. Was just curious what your thoughts were on the topic.

[Skeggi]

So what does the sideboard look like? I'm just brainstorming now by the way :wink: Something like this perhaps:

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Ethersworn Cannonist (why not?)
3 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Back to Basics

So how would you side against Domain Zoo for instance? The cards you want out of your sideboard are Swords, Jitte and B2B. The cards that are less useful in this match-up are Standstill... and then what? Stifles are obviously very good against the fetches, so you want to keep these. Dazes may be cut, since it destroys your tempo and you need to keep up with Zoo. So that's 8 free slots and you need 10. 2 more. Perhaps drop an Adept and a Cursecatcher; they lack toughness and are easily burned down. Cutting into the lords seems like a bad plan versus Zoo.

So, taking Tivadar's list in the above post, with the sideboard I suggested, against Domain Zoo you should side: -4 Standstill, -4 Daze, -1 Silvergill Adept, -1 Cursecatcher, +4 Swords to Plowshares, +3 Umezawa's Jitte and +3 Back to Basics.

You could consider extra anti-aggro tech like Submerge, Threads of Disloyalty and Mind Harness, but you don't really have anything to drop for those cards, so you'd rather put some other forms of hate in your sideboard, like anti-storm with Cannonist and anti-Loam with Relic.

Amirite? :wink:

[Svenyboy]

I miss the Wake Trasher in your List. He is bigger than the other Fishes because after the change of M10 you tapp your lands at the of turn from your oppenet without manaburn. That's makes him very big. I would cut the new Merfolk Lord and would play 3 Wake Trashers. Furthermore you need Stifle playset for manascrew.
That means:
- 1 Polluted Delta
+ 1 Stifle
- 3 Merfolk Sovereign
+ 3 Wake Trasher

Is the splash for white good? I don't think so. Maybe a Rushing River as an alternativ Removal and bounce him his creature. The same Job like StoP without a LifeGain. You play a fast game with Merfolk and the LifeGain isn't a good Choice. It's better to bounce his 2 creatures with only one card and make the way free to attack.

Greets.

[Skeggi]

The discussion about Wake Thrasher/Sovereign is a page back (Nightmare's post (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=365247&postcount=1975)). They deliberately chose for Sovereign over Thrasher. There are also already 4 Dazes in the list. Perhaps you should read better?

[Svenyboy]

The discussion about Wake Thrasher/Sovereign is a page back (Nightmare's post (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=365247&postcount=1975)). They deliberately chose for Sovereign over Thrasher. There are also already 4 Dazes in the list. Perhaps you should read better?

My Mistake with Daze. I mean Stifle. -> Edit, sorry.

[Skeggi]

Stifles (or Dazes) don't necessarily protect you from a Tarmogoyf. Players often already play around them; by default they already take the lowest risk possible. Cutting a land isn't an option either I think, it'll sooner get you screwed than your opponent. Besides, Stifle is good, but not that good. As said before, as a Merfolk player you want to tap out and go broken. Stifle slows you down. I'd rather use my mana than to wait for a fetch.

[Finn]

Ehh, I find myself missing the Thrashers now. I played Landstill last night. When I topdecked Sovereign after Wrath of God I was not pleased.

[Skeggi]

Well, that was to be expected. To improve against match-ups like Tempo Thresh, where Fire kills a Thrasher and an Adept, or Zoo, where Thrasher lacks blocking power, you could opt to drop Thrasher and run a pumper so you can swarm better. And yes, swarms die to Landstill. But so do Thrashers: there are lots of Landstill lists where they run enough Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exiles or Vindicates to kill off that singleton Thrasher too. But you are correct, in that situation you'd rather draw Thrasher. But how often does it happen? I mean, you can also keep in mind that a WoG wipes your board and keep a few Merfolk as a back-up in your hand.

[tivadar]

Yeah guys, while that list was close to my actual list, it is NIGHTMARE'S list, and not my own. As for his sideboard, this is what he listed.


SB
2 Relic of Progenitus
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Disenchant
2 Absolute Law
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sower of Temptation/Seasinger/Threads/Control Magic (Steal Shit Slot)


Generally I'd probably not run this list exactly. Since we don't have any way to search for things, and no brainstorming action, 2 ofs in the sideboard seem weak to me. I'd probably go:
3x STP
3x Relic
3x Absolute Law
3x Threads
3x Canonist

I do like the canonist from the sideboard for the combo matchup here. Though the one thing I'd like back in the above is the Blebs. Part of the reason I'd try to maindeck STP and have BLEB be in the board.

[Skeggi]

Oh right, Threads > Back to Basics when you splash white, ofcourse. Makes alot more sense.

[Nightmare]

Yeah guys, while that list was close to my actual list, it is NIGHTMARE'S list, and not my own. As for his sideboard, this is what he listed.



Generally I'd probably not run this list exactly. Since we don't have any way to search for things, and no brainstorming action, 2 ofs in the sideboard seem weak to me. I'd probably go:
3x STP
3x Relic
3x Absolute Law
3x Threads
3x Canonist

I do like the canonist from the sideboard for the combo matchup here. Though the one thing I'd like back in the above is the Blebs. Part of the reason I'd try to maindeck STP and have BLEB be in the board.
Coming from the perspective of someone who has tested the TES matchup rather extensively - since Bryant basically lives at my house during summer break - I'm curious about Canonist. Do you REALLY think you need more help in the combo matchup? I certainly haven't seen a need for it.

[Maveric78f]

If you would ever need help meddling mage is far better becasue it pitches to force and because it's useful against control.

[Skeggi]

With all due respect, TES kind of sucks. ANT is much much worse and actually a difficult match-up. I have played against very experienced ANT players regularly (Team Nijmegen for instance). Against ANT, Cannonist could be a helpful addition. You can't just use a Meddling Mage, because it doesn't actually stop the combo. If you say Ad Nauseum, they can build storm and use EtW. If you say Tendrils, they go off via EtW. If you name EtW, they go off via Tendrils. Meddling Mage just doesn't cut it. Neither does Cannonist alone, but it has to be bounced for them to succeed. Meddling Mage doesn't.

[Nightmare]

With all due respect, TES kind of sucks. ANT is much much worse and actually a difficult match-up. I play against very experienced ANT players regularly (Team Nijmegen for instance). Against ANT, Cannonist would be a helpful addition.

I'm certainly not going to get into an argument about combo in the merfolk thread, but which combo deck you're playing against is of little relevance. The point I'm making is that you're a blue based aggro deck that runs Force, Stifle, and 8 Dazes, along with Wasteland. I can't believe you'd want to dedicate an additional three sideboard slots to a deck that should be a fairly good matchup already. Or, even more, why they would be as narrow as Canonist. You'd never bring that in against any other decks. I'd still rather have BEB, which is serviceable against combo, and much, much better against aggro loam.

[Skeggi]

I'd still rather have BEB, which is serviceable against combo, and much, much better against aggro loam.
Against TES, yes, but ANT doesn't run any red spells except EtW, and BEB doesn't really help there. You could argue that you're wasting 3 slots, but I don't see it like that. Aggro is definately our worst match-up, and we're already dedicating about 9 slots to that match-up. Putting more effort against these decks is a waste, because you'll never be able to keep the consistancy of the basic Merfolk list: you'll have to drop too much. I must say that I think Tivadar made a mistake by dropping the Jitte's. Absolute Law could be considered and is indeed very good, but you have to consider the match-ups. You also want Absolute Law in almost any match-up where you could also use Threads, Jitte and Swords to Plowshares. So if you want to improve that match-up, one of these will have to give way.

You can argue that Merfolk has enough already to defeat combo, but I don't think that's true. There's quite a bit, yes, but we could use some more. At least, that's my experience with it.

[Nightmare]

You can argue that Merfolk has enough already to defeat combo, but I don't think that's true. There's quite a bit, yes, but we could use some more. At least, that's my experience with it.

Alright, let's say I'm willing to concede that point. I'm not positive I am, but for the sake of discussion, let's pretend. Is Canonist really the slot you want there? Assuming the White Splash (otherwise you wouldn't be running Canonist), isn't there a better use of that slot? Canonist is both a creature and an artifact, which makes it the most vulnerable permanent type possible. Both ANT and TES have ample ways of dealing with it. Pair that vulnerability with the fact that it's literally useless against any other matchup, and it makes me really wish we had something like Chant instead.